From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 1 00:06:20 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 01:06:20 -0500 Subject: what BS References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> <005301c75bc3$5dd5c6f0$0b01a8c0@game> <45E5F7B4.2133.C3E0EB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <006001c75bc7$bcbb9ce0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:44 AM Subject: Re: what BS > > So, you're saying that Al should remove all of the material published > after 1923 from bitsavers? I don't get your point--if he watermarks > the pages, he's just saying that it's his time and webspace. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I am just saying he (and others) do the work so the material does not disappear, how important is where it originated from? If you start watermarking each page you might obliterate something useful by accident. Even if it is watermarked people will still try to sell it anyway. I also worry about the copyright holder using the watermark to go back to the person who scanned it to cause problems (can happen). From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 00:41:16 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:41:16 -0800 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <006001c75bc7$bcbb9ce0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> <005301c75bc3$5dd5c6f0$0b01a8c0@game> <45E5F7B4.2133.C3E0EB6@cclist.sydex.com> <006001c75bc7$bcbb9ce0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702282241g63e334c3r74b033682f40c369@mail.gmail.com> On 2/28/07, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:44 AM > Subject: Re: what BS > > > > > > So, you're saying that Al should remove all of the material published > > after 1923 from bitsavers? I don't get your point--if he watermarks > > the pages, he's just saying that it's his time and webspace. > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > > > > > I am just saying he (and others) do the work so the material does not > disappear, how important is where it originated from? If you start > watermarking each page you might obliterate something useful by accident. > Even if it is watermarked people will still try to sell it anyway. I also > worry about the copyright holder using the watermark to go back to the > person who scanned it to cause problems (can happen). > > it's rather easy to remove watermarks from pdfs... http://labnol.blogspot.com/2006/12/how-to-remove-watermarks-from-pdf.html http://www.elcomsoft.com/apdfpr.html http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pdf+remove+watermark&btnG=Google+Search From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 1 01:17:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:17:07 -0800 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <200702282104.41154.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: >From: Lyle Bickley ---snip--- > >Unfortunately, there are always slime out there who take advantage of >honest >people's work. > ---snip--- Hi I have seen some honest sellers that include a pointer to the information as part of their sale. It is rare but it is done. I saw it on the sale of a M20 recently. They had pointers to some of my work. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 1 02:05:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:05:19 -0800 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <006001c75bc7$bcbb9ce0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org>, <006001c75bc7$bcbb9ce0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45E618BF.12983.CBF202B@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Mar 2007 at 1:06, Teo Zenios wrote: > I am just saying he (and others) do the work so the material does not > disappear, how important is where it originated from? If you start > watermarking each page you might obliterate something useful by accident. > Even if it is watermarked people will still try to sell it anyway. I also > worry about the copyright holder using the watermark to go back to the > person who scanned it to cause problems (can happen). I'm assuming that Al is using a recent court opinion concerning DMCA and historic preservation of material related to firms and computers that no longer exist or are no longer manufactured. But selling the same information seems to cross the line and is no longer related to preservation, but rather to commerce. Or so it seems. But if Al is violating some law by putting this stuff up on bitsavers, then I agree that he should remove it before someone sues him. It's really a shame to watch the web evolve and see material disappear. Even archive.org doesn't keep everything around. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 1 02:39:12 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 03:39:12 -0500 Subject: what BS References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> <006001c75bc7$bcbb9ce0$0b01a8c0@game> <45E618BF.12983.CBF202B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <006f01c75bdd$16b725b0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:05 AM Subject: Re: what BS > I'm assuming that Al is using a recent court opinion concerning DMCA > and historic preservation of material related to firms and computers > that no longer exist or are no longer manufactured. > > But selling the same information seems to cross the line and is no > longer related to preservation, but rather to commerce. > > Or so it seems. > > > Cheers, > Chuck Preservation and distribution are two different things, plus there is the legality of who gets to do either. The devil is in the fine print, and none of that matters when you have the money to go to court and the other person does not. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 1 02:26:48 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 03:26:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <45E5AD5A.13860.B1BA23E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200702281611.LAA19283@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Feb 28, 7 11:02:25 am, <45E5AD5A.13860.B1BA23E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703010916.EAA04581@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I've just spent a couple of hours tracing out the power-supply circuitry in this 'scope, particularly the HV supply driving many of the CRT terminals. Turns out the winding I thought was the HV winding, only shorted out, is actually the CRT filament/heater winding. (I'm quite sure I've got the CRT filament pins correct; they are the only two CRT pins that show DC continuity.) I'm not sure whether it's a heater or filament; there's a pin that could be the cathode (connected to one side of the heater/filament, the most negative CRT pin found so far), but there is an odd circuit which makes sense to me only as an attempt to compensate for using one side of a filament as a cathode - there's a voltage divider across one half of the 6.3V heater winding, with a HV cap coupling it to the "cathode" side of the CRT filament/heater, presumably to avoid the slight mains-frequency flicker that would otherwise result. The HV winding appears intact, and runs between one side of the B+ winding and the filament of one of the HV rectifiers; =================== _oooo_oooo_oooo_oooo_ A B C D E A-B-C is the centre-tapped B+ winding I found before. B is grounded (the A and C points go to the plates of the B+ rectifier) and, based on scaling up from the voltages I see, the A-B (and B-C) voltage is about 375VAC. D-E is the filament winding for one of the HV rectifiers. C-D is a winding I was not previously aware existed; its design voltage is about 500VAC (under the same assumptions about scaling). The transformer's ground wire has DC connection to this winding, about 150 ohms to either D or E and something like twice that to C. Since both this ground wire and B were grounded to the chassis when the transformer was in-circuit, I conjecture that this is part of the fault, and the ground wire is supposed to be isolated from all the windings. Interestingly, in view of the comments about how instead of a high positive final anode voltage CRTs tend to run with a high negative cathode voltage, it looks as though this does both: the final anode is about as positive with respect to chassis ground as the filament is negative. I think I now understand all the power-transformer windings: ============================================================ _ooo_ooo_ooo_ooo_ _ooo_ _ooo_ _ooo_ _ooo_ooo_ _ooo_ _ooo_ A B C D E F G H J K L M N P Q R S T A-B-C-D-E is as above. F-G, H-J, and K-L are the filament windings for the B+ rectifier, the CRT, and the other HV rectifier. M-N-P is the heater winding for most of the tubes. Q-R and S-T are the incoming mains power windings (series for 230V, parallel for 115V). Add in the chassis ground wire and this accounts for all the power transformer wires. I also suspect there is some effect operating to make my voltage estimates come out high. The unregulated B+ supply (before the resistor and 0B2) has a smoothing cap of 80uF 475V. This means the B+ winding, end-to-CT (A-B or C-B above) can't be higher than 335VAC, probably less to allow some headroom, while my estimate put it at nearly 400VAC, definitely high enough to overvoltage that cap. Oh, and, yes, with the rectifier tubes pulled and the transformer out of the circuit, I could feed it externally-provided power no problem. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Mar 1 05:44:18 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:44:18 -0500 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <45E66103.1050209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200703011144.l21Bi4Jw000353@hosting.monisys.ca> > > The only thing you might do to curtail this kind of "thievery" is to > > "watermark" key pages of manuals on bitsavers. Please don't do this - I thought the whole point of bitsavers was to preserve original documentation. If the original doesn't have watermarks, the preserved one shouldn't either. If you want to put "your mark" on the PDFs, then how about an extra page at the beginning. This does not alter the original document, and you can provide as much information as you wish. Granted such pages can be removed, but so can watermarks - if someone is intent on distributing your scan without giving credit, they will find a way. But it's likely that people who just slurp the archive onto a DVD will leave the PDFs "as is". > I don't care if people sell the files I'm glad to hear you say that. I know this discussion has come up before. Having spend many years on a dial-up connection, I can tell you that for people large files are impossible (or at least very difficult) to obtain directly. I don't consider paying $25 for a DVD of files that I want to be any different than paying for my internet connection which lets me download them - It's just a transfer medium and a service. > what annoyed me was the implication in the ad that he did the work. I also find this offensive. I spend a fair bit of time scanning and otherwise preserving material - I do not expect credit or acknowlegement, but I would find it annoying to have someone else presenting the material with such statements. But there may be some truth to his statements - perhaps he did work at DEC, and "putting together a large collection of manuals" doesn't mean that he collected them while he worked there, or that they are in paper form ... Yeah Right! At least the material is being further distributed on a semi- permanent medium, which will increase it's chances for survival... > A few weeks ago, I bought an Applied Microsystems 8085 ICE 'with manual' > It was a CD of my scan off bitsavers. Does this bother you? - It seems to me to be a fairly legimite use of the material (Face it - how many people who don't have an AM 8085 ICE would have a use for that manual). I've just brought in a scope which I am planning to pass on to a friend, so I grabbed the manual from BANA (68Megs of it - yes I do have a HS connection now) and put it on a CD for him - do you consider this wrong? If he did not state that the manual was on CD, then thats another thing - misrepresentation, as I would expect "with manual" to mean the original physical manual - but when I see something advertised with "manual on CD" or "manual in PDF", I assume it's been taken from the net or purchased from one of dealers of PDF manuals. This does not bother me - saves the the trouble of finding it myself. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie Thu Mar 1 06:25:47 2007 From: pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:25:47 +0000 Subject: Misc. stuff available for collection in Dublin, Ireland Message-ID: <01MDPDGTWQMAIACRM1@vms.eurokom.ie> Hello, Are there any other cctech members in Ireland? We are having a clearout at work and there is some old gear is going to be thrown out. If anyone wants it, they are welcome to come and get it. There are: One or maybe two VAXstation 3100s. Basic models - no model 76 or other high end ones. No disks. Should be working. Two VR299 colour monitors. (32kg each) One has no red on the display and a faulty on/off switch. The other is fairly ok. Two table top TLZ04 DAT tape drives. They both probably chew tapes :-( Some TLZ09 storageworks (green/brown) TLZ09 DAT tape drives. Condition unknown. Some storageworks (green/brown) canisters that once housed disks. Worked when they had disks in them. Some Decserver 200 terminal servers (8 port, LAT only) Some working, some power supply faults, some logic board faults. Two Dec DEMSB X.25 routers (with a few cables) Worked some years ago. Stored indoors since then. Two Satelcom Megapac X.25 switches (also with cables and manual) Seem to work. Not really sure what to look for though. A Livingston Portmaster 2e serial & ISDN "communications server" Faulty I think. Can test if anyones interested. A VT420 terminal. Dead as far as I recall. Can test if necessary. Maybe some other related bits and bobs. If anybody can take any of this, please contact me off-list. All are available for collection in South Dublin. I don't want to crate and ship anywhere as they are generally heavy, awkward and probably not of sufficient interest or rarity (although the X.25 stuff may be rare in some parts of the world, but I doubt if anyone's interested). Regards, Peter. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 06:57:51 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:57:51 +0000 Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <45E5AE47.716.B1F3FF2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703010012.TAA24047@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45E5AE47.716.B1F3FF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3/1/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Feb 2007 at 19:00, der Mouse wrote: > > > Actually, come to think of it, looking at your (natural enough) use of > > "valve" where I'd write "tube", I'm curious - are CRTs called CRTs on > > your side of the pond, or something else (CRV?)? > > This has come up before--it's "tube" if I recall. The same applies > to terms suchl as TWT. > > The only difference is that some pronounce it "chube" ^^^^^^ "all". No-one British that I've ever heard pronounces it "toob". People would look at you funny if you did ;) Ed. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 1 07:15:15 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 05:15:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil Message-ID: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> After a recent fight with some Cipher tape drives, trying to boot a system, I managed to badly mangle the leader of my boot tape. Now, rewriting the tape isn't a problem, but fixing the tape is. I can cut off the mangled leader, but then there won't be enough tape left before the BOT marker. The BOT on a nine track is just a hunk of sensing foil, just like I remember from trying to repair eight track tapes (BTW, tinfoil and double sided tape _doesn't_ work on eight tracks). Rat Shack no longer sells sensing foil, surprise, surprise - so, does anyone know of a currently available solution? That metal duct work tape perhaps? I don't want to use anything that might risk damage to the heads though. Any ideas? -Ian From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Mar 1 07:31:46 2007 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:31:46 +0100 Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil References: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801c75c05$f9d42410$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr Ian Primus" To: Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 2:15 PM Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil > After a recent fight with some Cipher tape drives, > trying to boot a system, I managed to badly mangle the > leader of my boot tape. Now, rewriting the tape isn't > a problem, but fixing the tape is. Where are you located? I could send you 10-20 leaders Nico From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 1 07:30:10 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 05:30:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <591522.58433.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mr Ian Primus wrote: > After a recent fight with some Cipher tape drives, > trying to boot a system, I managed to badly mangle > the > leader of my boot tape. Now, rewriting the tape > isn't > a problem, but fixing the tape is. I can cut off the > mangled leader, but then there won't be enough tape > left before the BOT marker. The BOT on a nine track > is > just a hunk of sensing foil, just like I remember > from > trying to repair eight track tapes (BTW, tinfoil and > double sided tape _doesn't_ work on eight tracks). > Rat > Shack no longer sells sensing foil, surprise, > surprise > - so, does anyone know of a currently available > solution? That metal duct work tape perhaps? I don't > want to use anything that might risk damage to the > heads though. Any ideas? After a bit of googleing it looks as if the sensing foil is still available, although it's meant for audio use. Was that foil the same as the foil used in nine tracks? -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 1 08:00:32 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:00:32 -0600 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <00e901c75baa$611c21b0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> <00e901c75baa$611c21b0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45E6DC80.6080905@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Al wrote.... >> How nice. It just happens to match the pdfs from a well known source. > > Wonder if I could send him an invoice for the bandwidth he used when > downloading it all. For an analogy, isn't it like someone getting hardware, software or documentation from a dumpster or yard sale etc. and not giving credit as to where it came from? How many ebay ads for vintage hardware does that apply to? Lots, I suspect. If the guy passed the scans off as his own data *then* I'd be pissed in Al's shoes, but it sounds like he made no such claim. The lack of credit's mildly annoying, but the people I'd be really upset at would be the ones who claim that *they* scanned the data in. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 1 08:05:42 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:05:42 -0600 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <200702282104.41154.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> <200702282104.41154.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <45E6DDB6.60303@yahoo.co.uk> Lyle Bickley wrote: > The only thing you might do to curtail this kind of "thievery" I need to read the ebay ad to see if Al's summary matches the text; I'm not sure that getting something for free that was available for free and then including it as part of a sale is "thievery". A little dishonest yes, but where's the theft? > is to "watermark" key pages of manuals on bitsavers. I doubt it'd help. However I'd give serious consideration to every PDF file having a cover page giving the source (bitsavers), the scan date, and contact info for the original scanner - similar to what the various free electronics datasheet sites seem to do. It provides an incentive for people not to pass things off as their own work whilst not "harming" the actual main content of the file, and likely only adds a couple of KB onto a multi-MB file. > Besides, most serious collectors already know and value greatly the work > you've done to create bitsavers... Exactly. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 1 08:07:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:07:39 -0600 Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: References: <200703010012.TAA24047@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45E5AE47.716.B1F3FF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45E6DE2B.9020309@yahoo.co.uk> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: >> This has come up before--it's "tube" if I recall. The same applies >> to terms suchl as TWT. >> >> The only difference is that some pronounce it "chube" > ^^^^^^ > > "all". No-one British that I've ever heard pronounces it "toob". > People would look at you funny if you did ;) "tewb" here, just FYI :-) From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Mar 1 02:54:00 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:54:00 +0000 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E694A8.8070506@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > One of the most annying faults to trace (and we've all had them) is the > fault that disappears when you connect a 'scope probe _anywhere_ on the > device under test. Most likeht it's a bad conneciton somewhere, but > finding it will drive you (in)sane... Ah, the very first valve amp I repaired, which I bought from a friend at school... It would get progressively quieter and quieter over a period of a few minutes, but turning the volume right down and unplugging my guitar would make it work again. "Hmm", said my Dad, "You could try checking the biasing around the output stage, because when it goes quiet there's not even any hiss". Fair enough. Plug my cassette player in so I've got some drive, starts to fade, increase volume, fades some more, increase volume... Measure bias voltage between the grid of the EL34 and ground, then. Let's see, pin 5 and ground... and *LOUD*!!! Yup, the grid leak resistor had gone open. Gordon From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Thu Mar 1 09:32:04 2007 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:32:04 -0700 Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> References: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E6F1F4.4010006@reeltapetransfer.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > After a recent fight with some Cipher tape drives, > trying to boot a system, I managed to badly mangle the > leader of my boot tape. Now, rewriting the tape isn't > a problem, but fixing the tape is. I can cut off the > mangled leader, but then there won't be enough tape > left before the BOT marker. The BOT on a nine track is > just a hunk of sensing foil, just like I remember from > trying to repair eight track tapes (BTW, tinfoil and > double sided tape _doesn't_ work on eight tracks). Rat > Shack no longer sells sensing foil, surprise, surprise > - so, does anyone know of a currently available > solution? That metal duct work tape perhaps? I don't > want to use anything that might risk damage to the > heads though. Any ideas? > I too have a package of 9-track sensing markers. I could snip some off and send in an envelope. Keven Miller Orem Utah, US From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 1 09:40:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 07:40:53 -0800 Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <591522.58433.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> References: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com>, <591522.58433.qm@web52715.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E68385.12687.E6035BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Mar 2007 at 5:30, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > - so, does anyone know of a currently available > > solution? That metal duct work tape perhaps? I don't > > want to use anything that might risk damage to the > > heads though. Any ideas? It's still available, but you have a look a bit. See, for example: http://www.datalinksales.com/cgi- bin/shop/datstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=011%20001000 Most of the audio sensing tape that I see emphasizes its conductive aspect, while the stuff used for 1/2" tape is used as a reflective medium. While the audio tape stuff might work, I'm not certain. In the bad old days, it was not uncommon for a boot tape to turn up with an error when you least needed it--or for you to have forgotten to bring the boot tape for the system you needed to start--say, for a system with a different configuration. The practice then was to separate varioius boot records with BOT markers--so you could simply hit LOAD and the drive would space forward to the next load point. Probably one of the oldest "boot manager" systems. Invaluable if you were out in the field a couple of thousand miles from home. I don't know if this will work with all of the autoloading drives, but it certainly worked just fine on the floor-standing vacuum-column units. But then, this was when you could take a large Samsonite case full of tape as carry-on luggage and not have to worry about being strip-searched. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 1 09:59:44 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:59:44 -0600 Subject: what BS References: <200703011144.l21Bi4Jw000353@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <00fa01c75c1a$a48604a0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Dave wrote.... > I'm glad to hear you say that. I know this discussion has come up before. > Having spend many years on a dial-up connection, I can tell you that for > people large files are impossible (or at least very difficult) to > obtain directly. I didn't know it was hard to obtain... I've made it known that I'll dump portions (or all) of it to CD/DVD/USBHD for people. It's in my self interest so that people don't suck down mega$ in bandwidth from me. Jay From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Mar 1 10:23:56 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:23:56 -0800 Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> References: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E6FE1C.8070106@msm.umr.edu> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >After a recent fight with some Cipher tape drives, >trying to boot a system, I managed to badly mangle the >leader of my boot tape. Now, rewriting the tape isn't >a problem, but fixing the tape is. I can cut off the >mangled leader, but then there won't be enough tape >left before the BOT marker. The BOT on a nine track is >just a hunk of sensing foil, just like I remember from >trying to repair eight track tapes (BTW, tinfoil and >double sided tape _doesn't_ work on eight tracks). > do you mean 9 tracks? > Rat >Shack no longer sells sensing foil, surprise, surprise >- so, does anyone know of a currently available >solution? That metal duct work tape perhaps? I don't >want to use anything that might risk damage to the >heads though. > the tape is on the opposite side of the tape from the heads, so the main risk is when it goes thru the flux gate, and may damage that. >Any ideas? > > > make sure anything you put on the side of the tape for the sensor is not wide enough to be viewed by both the eot and the bot sensor. I believe they are on on opposite sides of the tape. The drives I had would "sense" the bot when doing the load operation by just using a piece of paper and flashing it in the gap under the sensor. If you are using a streaming drive, and have limited access to the area where the sensor is, and it is an "intelligent" drive you probably can't play like I had to at times, by taking the unit offline and hitting the load button. I could cause the drive to seek a bot at any time by doing that, and could experiment with different methods of doing what you are doing easily. BTW I am refering to a 100x cipher drive, and it's older pertec tension arm cousins in this. No smarts in the deck, just feedback circuits and servos. Anyway, the short answer is that the duct tape you refer to has mainly the risk of having adhesive leak out in the long term, as it has much more of that than the sensors you refer to. The analog tape ones you refer to should work as well, if positioned correctly. check that you were putting them on the correct side of the tape, as that makes a difference. BTW as a side question, having simple controls, just threading up the drive and hitting load when it worked allowed for simply putting on multiple load points on a tape, and having several tape data sets accessible by just resetting the drive offline, then hitting load again to get to each load point. I don't know if this is possible on the drives like F880's or M4's or not. Jim >-Ian > > > > From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Mar 1 12:04:48 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:04:48 -0000 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <45E618BF.12983.CBF202B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001901c75c2c$21405890$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm assuming that Al is using a recent court opinion concerning DMCA > and historic preservation of material related to firms and computers > that no longer exist or are no longer manufactured. Before they vanished, DEC had many old manuals on the price file. If you ordered some of them then you might get back a note to say that they could no longer provide it, but if the manual was available then you'd get it (albeit probably a photocopy). So if HP and IBM etc. offer the same service, then Al wouldn't be covered (even if he is a museum or library). > But if Al is violating some law by putting this stuff up on > bitsavers, then I agree that he should remove it before someone sues > him. No, he should wait until he gets a take-down notice (or perhaps actively seek permission). BAMA got hit recently by HP demanding that all the HP & Agilent manuals be removed, didn't they? All go sorted amicably out in the end I assume as it now says: "The manuals listed below are Reproduced with Permission, Courtesy of Agilent Technologies, Inc." > It's really a shame to watch the web evolve and see material > disappear. Even archive.org doesn't keep everything around. archive.org don't say that they'll retroactively delete stuff on request, just that they'll stop making it available to you and me. I _presume_ it's all still there somewhere and may well be available in the future. OTOH if you set up a robots.txt to keep them out, then they'll stay out and your stuff won't get indexed. Nothing to stop you writing a crawler that ignores robots.txt (assuming you have enough bandwidth and diskspace to keep up with the web). Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 27/02/2007 15:24 From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Mar 1 12:12:40 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:12:40 -0000 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <001a01c75c2d$34690510$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160090821802 > > "After living and breathing my life working on DG equipment, I have > put together an extensive set of manuals for the mininova, nova, > Supernova, eclipse minicomputers life." > > How nice. It just happens to match the pdfs from a well known source. > > He's done this with other parts of the archive, but this particular > add makes it sound like he actually did some WORK. > > At least the guy that's been selling bitsavers stuff in Israel puts > the source in his ads. But to be fair, this guy hasn't been _selling_ bitsavers stuff in the last 30 days (unless you count the XXDP diags which included manuals on CD) ... he's merely unsuccessfully offering to sell ... :-) have you tried emailing him? Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 27/02/2007 15:24 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 1 12:48:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:48:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200703010012.TAA24047@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Feb 28, 7 07:00:19 pm Message-ID: > > > The type of those valves will give you a good idea as to the voltage > > required of course. > > Yes. I need to look them up; they don't appear in the reference book I > have at ready hand. ("Had", actually; it's at home and I'm not. > That's also why I don't give the valve type number here.) > > > Almost certainly the EHT rectifier vavles are directly-heated, > > Yes. All the rectifier valves (including the B+ one) have filaments > rather than heaters. That does not suprise me. In fact, even if the rectifier valves were indirectly-heated (separate heater and cathode) it would be quite usual to have a separate heater winding for the rectifier and to connect the cathode to one side (or the centre tap) of that winding. A number of rectifier valves were not rated to withstand the full HT (B+) voltage between heater and cathode. > > >> (There are some 12V-heater tubes, but they all have centre-tapped > >> heaters.) > > I assume things like 12AX7s... > > 12AU7, from memory - again, they're at home and I'm not. (If you have There are 3 common double tridoes with centre-tapped 12V heaters -- 12AU7, 12AT7 and 12AX7 to you. And ECC81, ECC82 and ECC83 to me :-) > my emails from the summer, they include a valve complement list.) > > > My first concern is that the primary voltage is very low -- in other > > words this transformer draws excessive input current even when > > unloaded. > > Yes - as I mentioned back in the summer. This is just further > confirmation of it. I was using a 40W light bulb in series with the > primary, as a current limiter, which is why the primary voltage was 25V > instead of ~120V. The bulb was glowing (not quite full power, but > close). Well, even with a 40W bulb in series, I would expect a transformer with no load on the secondaries to give almost full output if there were not shorted turns. > > > This suggests to me shorted turns, probably in the HV winding (which > > would alos explain the very low outptu voltage there. > > I agree; this is why I suspect the HV winding of being the culprit. > > > You might consider rewinding the original transformer, although > > getting the insulation to withstanda a few kV would be 'interesting. > > Quite. It also would be "interesting" to get it apart far enough to > rewind. It's a laminated core made up largely of E-shaped pieces, and It's more normal to have 'E's and 'I's arranged alternately. > Actually, come to think of it, looking at your (natural enough) use of > "valve" where I'd write "tube", I'm curious - are CRTs called CRTs on > your side of the pond, or something else (CRV?)? No, we call them 'Cathode Ray Tubes' too (at least unless you're talking about the RAF 60 years ago ;-)).We also have travelling wave tubes, photomultiplier tubes, nixie tubes, and so on. Also a 'television tube' is what an RCA manual would call a 'kinescope' -- that is a TV receiver CRT Other terms that are relevant and different include : UK US HT+ (High Tension Positive) B+ LT A supply (heater supply) EHT (Extra High Tension) HV (high voltage to the CRT, etc) Anode Plate (of a tube) Also, in the UK, CRT electrodes are named 'cathode', 'grid', 'first anode', 'second anode',...'final anode'. I believe you call them 'cathode', 'first grid', 'second grid',...'anode'. Oh, the comment about the RAF perhaps needs explaining. In WW2, the UK armed services all had their own valve numbering systems. The RAF one had codes like VUxx (Valve, Unidirectional) for rectifiers VRxx (Valve, receiving) for small-signal valves VTxx (Valve, transmitting) for transmitter valves -- this one caused, and causes, endless confusion with the US Services 'VTxx' designations, here standing, of course, for 'Vacuum Tube'. The numbers are not the same. and VCRxx (Valve, cathode ray) for CRTs. To tie this in to classic computing, I believe the original 'Williams Tube' store used an ex-radar CRT (easily available after the war) called a VCR97. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 1 14:46:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:46:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200703010916.EAA04581@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Mar 1, 7 03:26:48 am Message-ID: > > I've just spent a couple of hours tracing out the power-supply > circuitry in this 'scope, particularly the HV supply driving many of > the CRT terminals. > > Turns out the winding I thought was the HV winding, only shorted out, > is actually the CRT filament/heater winding. (I'm quite sure I've got > the CRT filament pins correct; they are the only two CRT pins that show > DC continuity.) I'm not sure whether it's a heater or filament; It's always possible (you'd better hope not!) that there's an internal inter-electrode short in the CRT. But why you;d have those 2 electrodes connected directyly to a transformer winding is beyond me. Often (but not always), the 2 heater pins are the ones either side of the locating key on the CRT base in a 'scope CRT. > there's a pin that could be the cathode (connected to one side of the > heater/filament, the most negative CRT pin found so far), but there is > an odd circuit which makes sense to me only as an attempt to compensate > for using one side of a filament as a cathode - there's a voltage It's very uncommon to have a directly-heated CRT, almost always there's a seprate heater and cathode. But the insulation between the heater and cathode won't stand much voltage, so it's normal to connect the heater to the cathode (or at least to some point in the external circuit at about the same voltage as tha cathode) to prevent breakdown. > divider across one half of the 6.3V heater winding, with a HV cap > coupling it to the "cathode" side of the CRT filament/heater, > presumably to avoid the slight mains-frequency flicker that would > otherwise result. > > The HV winding appears intact, and runs between one side of the B+ > winding and the filament of one of the HV rectifiers; That suggests to me a -ve EHT supply (output taken from the anode of the rectifier). > > =================== > _oooo_oooo_oooo_oooo_ > A B C D E > > A-B-C is the centre-tapped B+ winding I found before. B is grounded > (the A and C points go to the plates of the B+ rectifier) and, based on > scaling up from the voltages I see, the A-B (and B-C) voltage is about > 375VAC. D-E is the filament winding for one of the HV rectifiers. C-D > is a winding I was not previously aware existed; its design voltage is > about 500VAC (under the same assumptions about scaling). > > The transformer's ground wire has DC connection to this winding, about > 150 ohms to either D or E and something like twice that to C. Since > both this ground wire and B were grounded to the chassis when the > transformer was in-circuit, I conjecture that this is part of the > fault, and the ground wire is supposed to be isolated from all the > windings. THat would make siese. This sounds like an insulation breakdown in the trasnformer, probable somwhere in the HV (C-D) section. > > Interestingly, in view of the comments about how instead of a high > positive final anode voltage CRTs tend to run with a high negative > cathode voltage, it looks as though this does both: the final anode is > about as positive with respect to chassis ground as the filament is > negative. How is the final anode supplied? It's normal to run a en electrostaticly-deflected CRT with the deflection plates close to ground potential (a few hundred volts is OK, so you can run them from the anodes of a valve amplifier with the cathodes of said valves close to ground. That means the cathode and control grid need to be at a high -ve voltage, and if there's a 'post deflection acceleration' electrode, it will be at a high +ve voltage (often higher than the voltage on the cathode, if you see what I mean). -tony From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Mar 1 12:18:53 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:18:53 -0000 Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393E0E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Comment from the UK Cathode Ray display devices such as TV, Terminals, Oscilloscopes etc. are generally refered to as "tubes" over here. 'Valve' is taken to mean the glass (or metal) enveloped switching or amplifying devices. Special devices such as photomultipliers are also normally called tubes. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sent: 01 March 2007 12:58 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] On 3/1/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Feb 2007 at 19:00, der Mouse wrote: > > > Actually, come to think of it, looking at your (natural enough) use > > of "valve" where I'd write "tube", I'm curious - are CRTs called > > CRTs on your side of the pond, or something else (CRV?)? > > This has come up before--it's "tube" if I recall. The same applies to > terms suchl as TWT. > > The only difference is that some pronounce it "chube" ^^^^^^ "all". No-one British that I've ever heard pronounces it "toob". People would look at you funny if you did ;) Ed. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 1 17:07:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:07:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long-term storage In-Reply-To: <20070226142200.R95994@shell.lmi.net> References: <200702232135.l1NLZ3Kb050701@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45DF5C3B.19057.314E6A23@cclist.sydex.com> <45E24BE8.6010803@gmail.com> <45E31B18.7070201@yahoo.co.uk> <20070226142200.R95994@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070301150549.P79225@shell.lmi.net> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=storage&articleId=9011945&taxonomyId=19&intsrc=kc_top . . . and the technology ia almost far enough along to start trying to read what is already stored there -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 1 20:43:36 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 21:43:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200703020243.VAA01537@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [replying to two messages in the same thread together] >> I was using a 40W light bulb in series with the primary, as a >> current limiter, which is why the primary voltage was 25V instead of >> ~120V. The bulb was glowing (not quite full power, but close). > Well, even with a 40W bulb in series, I would expect a transformer > with no load on the secondaries to give almost full output if there > were not shorted turns. Well, yes - since it would be drawing (to a first approximation) zero current. That the bulb glows at all with all the secondaries open is to me a strong indication that something is shorted. >> It also would be "interesting" to get it apart far enough to rewind. >> It's a laminated core made up largely of E-shaped pieces, [...] > It's more normal to have 'E's and 'I's arranged alternately. Actually, on reflection, that makes more sense - without the I pieces, there'd be some gaps. >> Turns out the winding I thought was the HV winding, only shorted >> out, is actually the CRT filament/heater winding. (I'm quite sure >> I've got the CRT filament pins correct; they are the only two CRT >> pins that show DC continuity.) > It's always possible (you'd better hope not!) that there's an > internal inter-electrode short in the CRT. Unlikely. Those two pins show about three ohms resistance. I'd expect a failure-mode short to be either well under 1 ohm or at least several hundred ohms. > Often (but not always), the 2 heater pins are the ones either side of > the locating key on the CRT base in a 'scope CRT. That's another indication that they're the heater, then. >> there's a pin that could be the cathode (connected to one side of >> the heater/filament, the most negative CRT pin found so far), but >> there is an odd circuit which makes sense to me only as an attempt >> to compensate for using one side of a filament as a cathode - [...] > It's very uncommon to have a directly-heated CRT, Then it probably is a heater, with that odd circuit serving some other purpose. (There is a "Z input" on the front panel, which is a brightness control; it is capacitively coupled to this possibly-cathode pin, which would make some sense....) >> The HV winding appears intact, and runs between one side of the B+ >> winding and the filament of one of the HV rectifiers; > That suggests to me a -ve EHT supply (output taken from the anode of > the rectifier). I now believe there is a -ve EHT supply and also a +ve EHT supply. There are two HV rectifiers; if I draw the rectifier valves as semiconductor diodes instead (to simplify the ascii-graphics), omitting their filaments for simplicity, the circuit looks something like: =================== .oooo.oooo.oooo.oooo. +--> resistor chain (see below) | | | | +--> one end of CRT heater | GND | | 100K | 220K | | | +--/\/\/\/---+--/\/\/\/--> CRT cathode(?) | | | +--|<--+ | .5uF/2KV 47 +->|-+-|<-+ | | +---||--GND +---||---+--/\/\/\/--GND | +----+ .5uF/2KV +--/\/\/\/--3.15VAC | | .5uF/2KV 91 | ==== +-->|---/\/\/\/--+-----||----GND | .oooo. 100K +--/\/\/\/--GND +--+ +--+ | 5M | +---------> CRT final anode +--> B++ +--> B+ | | GND---)|--+--/\/\/\/-+-| . |---GND 80uF/475V 0B2 (The unconnected final winding of the transformer is actually the filament winding for the rectifier whose cathode is shown connected to one end of that winding.) The "resistor chain" is a series of resistors to ground: >From above | (internal adjustment) | Intensity Focus "SW DC LEVEL" | 48K 100K 88K 100K 100K 100K 9K +--/\/\/\/--/\/\/\/--/\/\/\/--/\/\/\/--/\/\/\/--/\/\/\/--/\/\/\/--GND | ^ ^ ^ | | 15K +--> a CRT pin not traced yet +-||--+--/\/\/\/----+------> a CRT pin .01uF GND---||---+ .5uF/2KV >> Interestingly, in view of the comments about how instead of a high >> positive final anode voltage CRTs tend to run with a high negative >> cathode voltage, it looks as though this does both: the final anode >> is about as positive with respect to chassis ground as the filament >> is negative. > How is the final anode supplied? See above: from a half-wave rectification of the EHT AC supply. Add in the four deflection electrodes and this accounts for all but one of the connections to the CRT. That one is driven by a circuit I do not understand which appears to have something to do with the "Y LIN" internal adjustment - this may make more sense once I've traced more of the circuit. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 1 22:56:44 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 20:56:44 -0800 Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] Message-ID: >From: der Mouse > >[replying to two messages in the same thread together] > > >> I was using a 40W light bulb in series with the primary, as a > >> current limiter, which is why the primary voltage was 25V instead of > >> ~120V. The bulb was glowing (not quite full power, but close). > > Well, even with a 40W bulb in series, I would expect a transformer > > with no load on the secondaries to give almost full output if there > > were not shorted turns. > >Well, yes - since it would be drawing (to a first approximation) zero >current. That the bulb glows at all with all the secondaries open is >to me a strong indication that something is shorted. > ---snip--- Hi That is not necessarily true. The transformer is an inductor and would normally draw quite a bit of current. It would be 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage across it but It is still current. It is current that makes lamps glow as well. To tell if the transformer had shorts, you'd need to measure the relative phase angle of the voltage on the lamp and the transformer. If it was 90 degrees, there was no short, just the open in the HV. For a quick check, measure the voltage across the transformer and then across the light. If these totaled together was greater than the measured line voltage, I'd say the transformer was most likely OK. If the sum was equal to the line voltage, it is surely shorted. Some 'oscope measurements on a dual trace would be more meaningful. Just the fact that the light lit is not enough to say that the transformer is bad or good. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you?ll love. Compare products and save at MSN? Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Mar 2 02:28:41 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 08:28:41 +0000 Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <45E6FE1C.8070106@msm.umr.edu> References: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> <45E6FE1C.8070106@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <45E7E039.6060400@gjcp.net> jim wrote: >> trying to repair eight track tapes (BTW, tinfoil and >> double sided tape _doesn't_ work on eight tracks). >> > do you mean 9 tracks? No - 8-Track cartridges ;-) Were they ever used for data recording? Gordon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Mar 2 07:21:27 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:21:27 +0000 Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> References: <798544.62834.qm@web52713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E824D7.40709@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/03/2007 13:15, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > After a recent fight with some Cipher tape drives, > trying to boot a system, I managed to badly mangle the > leader of my boot tape. Oops, been there, done that. > Shack no longer sells sensing foil, surprise, surprise > - so, does anyone know of a currently available > solution? I still have a card with most of a roll of 3M "650 sensing markers", the 1" long tabs. There were 250 on a card so if you're in the UK, I could post you a few. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Mar 2 08:33:58 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:33:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <45E7E039.6060400@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <699996.6290.qm@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > jim wrote: > > >> trying to repair eight track tapes (BTW, tinfoil > and > >> double sided tape _doesn't_ work on eight > tracks). > >> > > do you mean 9 tracks? > > No - 8-Track cartridges ;-) > > Were they ever used for data recording? > As far as I know, eight tracks weren't used for data, although you could hook an 8 track recorder up to your TRS-80 Color Computer if you wanted to, I assume. But, yes, I was referring to repairing eight track tape cartridges with that comment. I had tried repairing a tape with double sided adhesive tape and tinfoil. It changed tracks, and then promptly got stuck as the (too stiff) foil splice hit the pinch roller/capstan... -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Mar 2 08:47:34 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:47:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <45E6FE1C.8070106@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <300631.7343.qm@web52704.mail.yahoo.com> The drive(s) I am working with is a Cipher F880. I have two, neither of which work properly at the moment, and I have been tinkering with trying to fix one, or at least get it to run well enough to boot the system. I was able to get my test boot tape repaired well enough that it should be able to load (BTW: the 'synthetics' setting on my iron seems to work pretty well on magtape). The drive won't load the tape properly, and I think it has to do with the control voltages for the takeup reel motor. Since the blower motor isn't working, I have to thread the tape in manually, and wrap it around the takeup. Then, on a load cycle, the tape winds onto the takeup, then as it's trying to get tension on the tape, it hits a snag and stops, and if the tape is wrapped a slight bit crooked on the takeup at this point, it flys off and gets tangled (hence my problem in the first place). I have the service manual for the drive (thanks bitsavers!) and I am going to go about getting it working again. I should have some time this weekend to work on it. I think I have a better handle on what's going on with the drive, and I should be able to fix it - I'll post again about it when I know more. Thanks for the help! -Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 2 08:52:29 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 06:52:29 -0800 Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil Message-ID: <45E83A2D.7030701@bitsavers.org> > After a recent fight with some Cipher tape drives, > trying to boot a system, I managed to badly mangle the > leader of my boot tape. > The BOT on a nine track is > just a hunk of sensing foil True, but on tapes 1600 bpi and higher there is a burst recorded over the BOT marker on one of the tracks to identify the density. You obviously can't move the mark very far into the tape without running into the first data block either, even if you force the read density, which you can't really do on auto loading Ciphers. I have spliced new leader onto damaged tape before, using analog tape splicing techniques (diagonal cut with two overlapping pieces, then tape on the back). From memory, Cipher drives don't have flux gates (little door over the top of the head). Thin clear packing tape works OK, but don't plan on reusing the tape after you get the data off. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Mar 2 10:07:35 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:07:35 +0000 Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <45E83A2D.7030701@bitsavers.org> References: <45E83A2D.7030701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45E84BC7.8030009@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/03/2007 14:52, Al Kossow wrote: > I have spliced new leader onto damaged tape before, using > analog tape splicing techniques (diagonal cut with two overlapping > pieces, then tape on the back). From memory, Cipher drives don't > have flux gates (little door over the top of the head). Thin clear > packing tape works OK, but don't plan on reusing the tape after you > get the data off. I suspect the main reason Al says not to reuse the tape after that, is that packing tape stretches and the adhesive will ooze out and make a mess (rather quickly, if my experience with emergency audio splices is anything to go by). If that's the only reason, you can use mylar splicing tape, which is still available for mending video tapes, surprisingly. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 2 13:59:11 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:59:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <699996.6290.qm@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <699996.6290.qm@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070302114019.M24158@shell.lmi.net> > > >> trying to repair eight track tapes (BTW, tinfoil and double sided > > >> tape _doesn't_ work on eight tracks). > > > do you mean 9 tracks? > > No - 8-Track cartridges ;-) > > Were they ever used for data recording? Well, . . . Hardly ever. I saw a home made interface at a swap It seems doubtful that tape splices would be satisfactory. Can you still get "REAL" tape splicing equipment and supplies? Trim ends taper slightly to provide a SLIGHTLY narrower tape at the splice scrape the coating off of the backing at the splice line up with a jig use developing fluid (also fun for playing with floppies!) to make sure that tracks are lined up and synched glue carefully retrim From james at machineroom.info Fri Mar 2 14:41:08 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 20:41:08 +0000 Subject: Abandoned Prime looking for new home (UK) Message-ID: <45E88BE4.70206@machineroom.info> Hi all, this is probably the shortest time I've owned a machine. Bought just a few months ago as a "project" I now have it to offer again. I simply don't have the skill to get this running. I've also got too many other projects :) It's ex Salford Uni Prime 2550. Comes with 2 disk drives, 1 tape drive, 3 boxes of manuals, 2 boxes of tapes, 4 5.25" floppy drives and a bunch of terminal lines. Pictures (including all the manual covers) are here http://www.flickr.com/photos/17208732 at N00/ Located in Southampton near M27 J7. It's yours for the taking. I'd like it to go to a genuine collector but will consider any and all interest! I can hang on to it for a few weeks but it's just taking up valuable space right now. If there's no interest in the entire system then I may part out boards, manuals, etc. As I understand it when I bought this it had sat for a year unused. Previous to that it had sat for a few years in a garage and been used occasionally and prior to that had been in the hands of the chap who rescued it from Salford. When I received it I had problems getting anything sensible on the terminal then things went downhill and I discovered the main 5V PSU had failed. I tried replacing that with an external 200A unit borrowed from my Cray EL but hadn't considered how many other signals are generated by the power supply. (MAN070 is available on bitsavers but this only covers the older Prime models - the power supply signals look the same but the VCP is very different). The ? 12 and +16 are all OK. I tried faking some of the power good signals and checked others (50Hz clock, etc). I even found one signal had broken on the backplane and have repaired that. Unfortunately without the manual for this specific model I'm stuck. In it's current condition it just sits with all front panel lights on and nothing on the console. CPU: As I say, the 5V supply has failed. I've patched several lines (the power good signals) inside the supply. I've had all the boards out, cleaned the connectors and vacumed the boards and case. I can include an 80A 5V supply if it's of any use to you (I'd hope 80A is sufficient. The 200A unit I was using is now back with the Cray!!) Disk drives: I found that the bolts holding the disk units in the casings were missing (a bag of "spares" was supplied which included the bolts and rubber mountings). I replaced the bolts before powering up, thankfully! One of the disk units powers up and spins. The other doesn't power at all. I removed all the dust too whilst the drives were out. Tape drive: Powers up and front panel buttons seem to "do stuff" but can't test any further. Tapes: These are all externally clean but a lot of the casings have cracked. You'll need some experience with 9 tracks to read these I expect. Documentation: There's a lot of very tidy manuals and also quite a few loose manuals in ring binders. There's also about 10 pocket guides. What is nice is the collection of history - there's administrator logs, service requests, etc. Floppy drives: I'm told the two original Prime badged units have failed. There's a couple of more modern replacements (and a handful of floppies) included - one of these should work! Without a working system I obviously can't test anything. Therefore, you should consider this as a source of spares or possible repair if you have the skill and/or manuals. I'm around most weekends for collection and can obviously give a hand loading. A standard SWB Transit does the job nicely. So come on, give the Prime a new home. Please :) James From rollerton at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 16:47:29 2007 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:47:29 -0600 Subject: Abandoned Prime looking for new home (UK) In-Reply-To: <45E88BE4.70206@machineroom.info> References: <45E88BE4.70206@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <2789adda0703021447m42a8496m16883cd8d9b2f0fb@mail.gmail.com> Oh Oh.. I'm having flashbacks looking that those pictures... Rev 19.4 ya, that was the ticket. The Rabbit. The coffee stained front covers. Made a great side table for my lounge chair and kept your feet warm too. On 3/2/07, James wrote: > > Hi all, this is probably the shortest time I've owned a machine. Bought > just a few months ago as a "project" I now have it to offer again. I > simply don't have the skill to get this running. I've also got too many > other projects :) > > It's ex Salford Uni Prime 2550. Comes with 2 disk drives, 1 tape drive, > 3 boxes of manuals, 2 boxes of tapes, 4 5.25" floppy drives and a bunch > of terminal lines. > > Pictures (including all the manual covers) are here > http://www.flickr.com/photos/17208732 at N00/ > > Located in Southampton near M27 J7. It's yours for the taking. I'd like > it to go to a genuine collector but will consider any and all interest! > I can hang on to it for a few weeks but it's just taking up valuable > space right now. If there's no interest in the entire system then I may > part out boards, manuals, etc. > > As I understand it when I bought this it had sat for a year unused. > Previous to that it had sat for a few years in a garage and been used > occasionally and prior to that had been in the hands of the chap who > rescued it from Salford. When I received it I had problems getting > anything sensible on the terminal then things went downhill and I > discovered the main 5V PSU had failed. > I tried replacing that with an external 200A unit borrowed from my Cray > EL but hadn't considered how many other signals are generated by the > power supply. (MAN070 is available on bitsavers but this only covers > the older Prime models - the power supply signals look the same but the > VCP is very different). The ? 12 and +16 are all OK. I tried faking some > of the power good signals and checked others (50Hz clock, etc). I even > found one signal had broken on the backplane and have repaired that. > Unfortunately without the manual for this specific model I'm stuck. In > it's current condition it just sits with all front panel lights on and > nothing on the console. > > CPU: > As I say, the 5V supply has failed. I've patched several lines (the > power good signals) inside the supply. I've had all the boards out, > cleaned the connectors and vacumed the boards and case. I can include an > 80A 5V supply if it's of any use to you (I'd hope 80A is sufficient. The > 200A unit I was using is now back with the Cray!!) > > Disk drives: > I found that the bolts holding the disk units in the casings were > missing (a bag of "spares" was supplied which included the bolts and > rubber mountings). I replaced the bolts before powering up, thankfully! > One of the disk units powers up and spins. The other doesn't power at > all. I removed all the dust too whilst the drives were out. > > Tape drive: > Powers up and front panel buttons seem to "do stuff" but can't test any > further. > > Tapes: > These are all externally clean but a lot of the casings have cracked. > You'll need some experience with 9 tracks to read these I expect. > > Documentation: > There's a lot of very tidy manuals and also quite a few loose manuals in > ring binders. There's also about 10 pocket guides. What is nice is the > collection of history - there's administrator logs, service requests, etc. > > Floppy drives: > I'm told the two original Prime badged units have failed. There's a > couple of more modern replacements (and a handful of floppies) included > - one of these should work! > > Without a working system I obviously can't test anything. Therefore, you > should consider this as a source of spares or possible repair if you > have the skill and/or manuals. I'm around most weekends for collection > and can obviously give a hand loading. A standard SWB Transit does the > job nicely. > > So come on, give the Prime a new home. Please :) > > James > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 2 16:58:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:58:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200703020243.VAA01537@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Mar 1, 7 09:43:36 pm Message-ID: > > [replying to two messages in the same thread together] > > >> I was using a 40W light bulb in series with the primary, as a > >> current limiter, which is why the primary voltage was 25V instead of > >> ~120V. The bulb was glowing (not quite full power, but close). > > Well, even with a 40W bulb in series, I would expect a transformer > > with no load on the secondaries to give almost full output if there > > were not shorted turns. > > Well, yes - since it would be drawing (to a first approximation) zero > current. That the bulb glows at all with all the secondaries open is Not so. There will be an out-of-phase current due to the inductance of the primary winding. And that current, if sufficiently large, would cause the lamp to glpw _But_ my experience suggests that for small-ish power transformers, the sort of thing we're talking about here on no-load, a normal mains lamp in series with the primary will not glow. You could trie a higher-wattage bulb, thoguh. IIRC, though, you've got a leak (or short) to earth from some point in the HV widning, and another point on that winding (the centre-tap of the B+ part) is deliberately earthed. That can't be right. And I'll bet that short-to-reath is not just on one turn, in other words you also have shorted turns there. > >> Turns out the winding I thought was the HV winding, only shorted > >> out, is actually the CRT filament/heater winding. (I'm quite sure > >> I've got the CRT filament pins correct; they are the only two CRT > >> pins that show DC continuity.) > > It's always possible (you'd better hope not!) that there's an > > internal inter-electrode short in the CRT. > > Unlikely. Those two pins show about three ohms resistance. I'd expect SOunds like the heater... > > Then it probably is a heater, with that odd circuit serving some other > purpose. (There is a "Z input" on the front panel, which is a > brightness control; it is capacitively coupled to this possibly-cathode > pin, which would make some sense....) Sure. The Z-modulation input is an external brightness control input, used for some special applications. In general it's capacitively-coupled to either the cathode or control grid of the CRT. > > >> The HV winding appears intact, and runs between one side of the B+ > >> winding and the filament of one of the HV rectifiers; > > That suggests to me a -ve EHT supply (output taken from the anode of > > the rectifier). > > I now believe there is a -ve EHT supply and also a +ve EHT supply. > There are two HV rectifiers; if I draw the rectifier valves as > semiconductor diodes instead (to simplify the ascii-graphics), omitting > their filaments for simplicity, the circuit looks something like: > > =================== > .oooo.oooo.oooo.oooo. +--> resistor chain (see below) > | | | | +--> one end of CRT heater > | GND | | 100K | 220K > | | | +--/\/\/\/---+--/\/\/\/--> CRT cathode(?) > | | | +--|<--+ | .5uF/2KV 47 > +->|-+-|<-+ | | +---||--GND +---||---+--/\/\/\/--GND > | +----+ .5uF/2KV +--/\/\/\/--3.15VAC > | | .5uF/2KV 91 > | ==== +-->|---/\/\/\/--+-----||----GND > | .oooo. 100K +--/\/\/\/--GND > +--+ +--+ | 5M > | +---------> CRT final anode > +--> B++ +--> B+ > | | > GND---)|--+--/\/\/\/-+-| . |---GND > 80uF/475V 0B2 > > (The unconnected final winding of the transformer is actually the > filament winding for the rectifier whose cathode is shown connected to ^^^^^^^^ Don't you mean anode (plate to you) here? > one end of that winding.) > Add in the four deflection electrodes and this accounts for all but one > of the connections to the CRT. That one is driven by a circuit I do > not understand which appears to have something to do with the "Y LIN" > internal adjustment - this may make more sense once I've traced more of > the circuit. It may well be an internal shield between the defleciton plates. Altering the voltage on it wil lcontrol the shape of the beam-deflction .vs. voltage between the defleciton plates characteriostic, thuse it will LINearise the Y defleciton. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 2 17:00:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 23:00:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Nine track tape BOT sensing foil In-Reply-To: <45E7E039.6060400@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Mar 2, 7 08:28:41 am Message-ID: > > No - 8-Track cartridges ;-) > > Were they ever used for data recording? Thankfully, not that I know of (and nor were 'Playtapes'. Mind you, the ROM cartridges for the Exidy Sorcerer computer were 8-tack cartridge cases with a PCB inside, not take. -tony From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 3 01:54:22 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:54:22 +0000 Subject: Abandoned Prime looking for new home (UK) In-Reply-To: <45E88BE4.70206@machineroom.info> References: <45E88BE4.70206@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <45E929AE.80700@gjcp.net> James wrote: > So come on, give the Prime a new home. Please :) > > James Bah. Why is all the good stuff at the wrong end of the country, and crops up right after an expensive month? Gordon From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Mar 3 08:44:53 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 06:44:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Abandoned Prime looking for new home (UK) In-Reply-To: <45E88BE4.70206@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <248740.66034.qm@web52701.mail.yahoo.com> > > So come on, give the Prime a new home. Please :) > Gah! On the wrong side of the pond, I'm afraid, otherwise I would be all over it. :) Hope someone is able to get and enjoy it. I like Primes. -Ian From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 3 09:27:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 07:27:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <274101.19746.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > In which case, buy a suitable conenctor to fit the > controller (either a > header socket or an edge connector), connectors for > the 2 drives (all > IDC types) and a length of 34 way iDC ribbon cable. > Make up a new drive > cable, with the 'IBM twist' and pin 34 pulled on > the 3.5" connector . > When you've finished using the 3.5" drice, put the > original cable back in > the machine. > > -tony I don't know if it's been suggested, but hows about utilizing a newer floppy cable, and simply clipping the pin 34 wire. Not only will you not need an adapter, you won't ruin the original equipment. Voyluh I have on the way a number of those floppy adapters (which allow the use of a 3.5" drive w/an old style 5 1/4" only cable (card-edge). If anyone needs 1 contact me offlist. $.50 + shipping + packing. I suppose I could improvise packing (thereby reducing costs). It would save the expense of paying 6-8 bucks for shipping if all you need is 1 or a couple of those. Bgmicro.com was the source. Contact me offlist. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 3 09:57:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:57:44 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <274101.19746.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <274101.19746.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E92A78.20691.18BC4E27@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2007 at 7:27, Chris M wrote: > I don't know if it's been suggested, but hows about > utilizing a newer floppy cable, and simply clipping > the pin 34 wire. Not only will you not need an > adapter, you won't ruin the original equipment. Voyluh My quibble with both Tony's (and your) suggestion is that the responders with the pin 34 suggestion (Fred and me, for two) weren't *sure* about the fix--we just had a suspicion--as in "try this". Building a cable that's potentially a throwaway might be more cost than the OP wanted to bear. Yes, in theory, you could pry the connectors off and reuse them, but I think that's not a very reliable practice. OTOH, using a 3.5-5.25 adapter and simply maskng the contact with a bit of tape is completely reversible. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 3 10:05:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:05:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E92A78.20691.18BC4E27@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <855794.58852.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> > OTOH, using a 3.5-5.25 adapter and simply maskng the > contact with a > bit of tape is completely reversible. Yes yes but of course. But that presumes the availability of 1. I had never seen one of these things until about a year or so ago. That's why I ordered 50 when I found a source! But if there is a header connector coming off the mobo, then using a modern cable is the next less strenuous method, for if you have to eliminate pin 34, reducing a common cable to scrap (though not really) is the least painful solution I think. ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 3 10:09:15 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:09:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets Message-ID: <826564.83270.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Got a call from someone here in NJ. He has about 10 older computers, 1 has the old style "10 inch" floppy drives. I have to assume that means 8 inch (didn't bother getting into that with him over the phone) - but what could it be??? My bet is some sort of Tandy something or other, for these are the most commonly found units with those drives. He has to take pictures and whatnot and e-mail them to me. I haven't got any finger nails left... There never was a 10" drive, was there? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Mar 3 10:31:36 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:31:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <826564.83270.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470468.56143.qm@web52706.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris M wrote: > Got a call from someone here in NJ. He has about 10 > older computers, 1 has the old style "10 inch" > floppy > drives. I have to assume that means 8 inch (didn't > bother getting into that with him over the phone) - > but what could it be??? Well, if it truly does have 8 inch floppy drives, it's probably one of the TRS-80 "business oriented" machines - Model 2, 12, 16, etc. Possibly even a NEC APC. But, if this guy is like some of the people I have encountered, it's a 286 clone with a 5 1/4 drive - "it uses those HUGE old floppies!" Good luck with it, hopefully it will be something cool. Let us know how it goes. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 3 10:43:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 08:43:06 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <855794.58852.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45E92A78.20691.18BC4E27@cclist.sydex.com>, <855794.58852.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E9351A.21877.18E5DD34@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2007 at 8:05, Chris M wrote: > Yes yes but of course. But that presumes the > availability of 1. I had never seen one of these > things until about a year or so ago. As far as I know, one was usually part of the 3.5" to 5.25" floppy adapter frame. My first 1.44MB drive, a Sony, came with one as part of the kit. They're simply not that uncommon. That you hadn't seen one is more of a statement of your sheltered life than of their ubiquitousness. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 3 10:44:19 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:44:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <470468.56143.qm@web52706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, if it truly does have 8 inch floppy drives, > it's > probably one of the TRS-80 "business oriented" > machines - Model 2, 12, 16, etc. Possibly even a NEC > APC. But, if this guy is like some of the people I > have encountered, it's a 286 clone with a 5 1/4 > drive > - "it uses those HUGE old floppies!" No, this particular yutz knows the difference between 5 1/4's and "10's". He told me so. Yeah, I guess an APC is probably the next most common unit. I should have asked him what that thar was (probably wouldn't have remembered). He ought to be e-mailing me any hour now. For fun, how's about we create a list of units that had 8" drives. Off the top of my head: TRS-80/Tandy 2,12,16,6000 NEC APC IBM System/23 Datamaster Canon AS-100 (basically external,but all it's drives were seemingly) Xerox 16/8 (external) ...and I'm tired already. Of course even the much more modern IBM AS/400 had them as an option. IBM Displaywriter If in your area, there are the means to advertise for nothing or close to it, I'd take advantage of it. There's isn't tons of this stuff out there, but there is some available. I've had at least a couple of nice hits thus far. Craigslist, give away buy-n-sell type rags, etc. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 3 10:55:57 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:55:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E9351A.21877.18E5DD34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <844295.90126.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Mar 2007 at 8:05, Chris M wrote: > > > Yes yes but of course. But that presumes the > > availability of 1. I had never seen one of these > > things until about a year or so ago. > > As far as I know, one was usually part of the 3.5" > to 5.25" floppy > adapter frame. My first 1.44MB drive, a Sony, came > with one as part > of the kit. They're simply not that uncommon. That > you hadn't seen > one is more of a statement of your sheltered life > than of their > ubiquitousness. LOL LOL LOL LOL. Yeah that's me, the cloistered monk, but for having utterly shirked the vow of silence. But keep in mind I haven't seen as many floppies as you have. And I do believe Sony invented the thing, so the earlier models would logically include it. But in defense of my worldliness, which basically makes me a wandering mendicant monk, I have seen at least 1 3.5" drive with a card edge corrector. So nyeh. Does anyone know if the 3.5's in the Sony SMC-70 series have card-edge or headers? I have a 70 and a 70G but haven't played with them much. And these are auto-inject style, no? If so, mine are busted in that regard:( ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 3 11:12:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 09:12:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: what are these for? NCR keyboards Message-ID: <174740.6705.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item =200084143494&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Mar 3 11:19:15 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 11:19:15 -0600 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <470468.56143.qm@web52706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <826564.83270.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <470468.56143.qm@web52706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070303111847.06989950@mail> At 10:31 AM 3/3/2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >But, if this guy is like some of the people I >have encountered, it's a 286 clone with a 5 1/4 drive >- "it uses those HUGE old floppies!" Yeah, those guys are always claiming that 5 1/4" == 10 inches. - John From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 3 11:37:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 09:37:49 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <470468.56143.qm@web52706.mail.yahoo.com>, <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E941ED.4156.1917F6B7@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2007 at 8:44, Chris M wrote: > TRS-80/Tandy 2,12,16,6000 > NEC APC > IBM System/23 Datamaster > Canon AS-100 (basically external,but all it's drives > were seemingly) > Xerox 16/8 (external) Forget it--the number and types of pre-1983 systems using 8" drives is in the hundreds at least, particularly if you include "special purpse" machines such as CNC controllers and word processors. There are anecdotes about a 12" floppy used in IBM mainframes, but I've never seen one. Cheers, Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 3 11:44:44 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 12:44:44 -0500 Subject: OT: How do I flash an ATI Rage 128 GL for a PC? Message-ID: <45E9B40C.5040506@sbcglobal.net> Apologies for being off-topic. Please reply to me directly, and not the list. I've got an ATI Rage 128 GL 16MB PCI video card from a B&W Mac G3. I put it in my Dell Precision 530 workstation, CentOS 4.4 Linux recognizes it, but no video comes out. Not even when I tell the BIOS to use that instead of the AGP card. Looks like I need to change the firmware from the Mac version to PC. Searching on Google so far hasn't turned up anything. Anybody know where to look? Or does anyone have a comparable video card for trade/gift? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 3 12:05:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:05:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070303100354.K76450@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Chris M wrote: > For fun, how's about we create a list of units that > had 8" drives. Off the top of my head: > > TRS-80/Tandy 2,12,16,6000 > NEC APC > IBM System/23 Datamaster > Canon AS-100 (basically external,but all it's drives > were seemingly) > Xerox 16/8 (external) > ...and I'm tired already. Of course even the much more > modern IBM AS/400 had them as an option. > IBM Displaywriter Altos CCS Colonial Data Compupro Cromemco CDOS Cromemco Z2 (Micah) Exo SS Mega Super Morrow NEC APC, 9801 NEC PC 8801a NEC APC H02 Talos Tecmar TRS-80 Mod 2 Lifeboat TRS-80 Mod 2 Pickles and Trout Vista Xerox 820 II XOR Zenith Z89, Z90 w/ Magnolia SS Zenith Z100 There are a lot more. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 12:06:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:06:34 -0500 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <45E941ED.4156.1917F6B7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <470468.56143.qm@web52706.mail.yahoo.com>, <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <45E941ED.4156.1917F6B7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45E9B92A.8050508@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There are anecdotes about a 12" floppy used in IBM mainframes, but > I've never seen one. I don't know if it was 12", but I've seen a disk that's a good bit bigger than 8" and was used on a mainframe. What I *haven't* seen is a drive that takes them. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 3 12:16:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:16:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <45E941ED.4156.1917F6B7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <470468.56143.qm@web52706.mail.yahoo.com>, <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <45E941ED.4156.1917F6B7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070303101549.T76450@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There are anecdotes about a 12" floppy used in IBM mainframes, but > I've never seen one. Are these 10" and 12" ones measuring diagonally? From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 12:16:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:16:34 -0500 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303100354.K76450@shell.lmi.net> References: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <20070303100354.K76450@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E9BB82.4040509@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Chris M wrote: >> For fun, how's about we create a list of units that >> had 8" drives. Off the top of my head: >> >> TRS-80/Tandy 2,12,16,6000 >> NEC APC >> IBM System/23 Datamaster >> Canon AS-100 (basically external,but all it's drives >> were seemingly) >> Xerox 16/8 (external) >> ...and I'm tired already. Of course even the much more >> modern IBM AS/400 had them as an option. >> IBM Displaywriter > > Altos > CCS > Colonial Data > Compupro > Cromemco CDOS > Cromemco Z2 (Micah) > Exo SS > Mega Super > Morrow > NEC APC, 9801 > NEC PC 8801a > NEC APC H02 > Talos > Tecmar > TRS-80 Mod 2 Lifeboat > TRS-80 Mod 2 Pickles and Trout > Vista > Xerox 820 II > XOR > Zenith Z89, Z90 w/ Magnolia SS > Zenith Z100 DEC PDP-8 and PDP-11 with RX-01 and RX-02. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Mar 3 12:45:06 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:45:06 -0500 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <45E9BB82.4040509@gmail.com> References: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <20070303100354.K76450@shell.lmi.net> <45E9BB82.4040509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200703031345.06938.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 03 March 2007 13:16, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > DEC PDP-8 and PDP-11 with RX-01 and RX-02. Or maybe it's the console drive on a VAX 11/780 or its kin. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 3 13:56:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 11:56:17 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303101549.T76450@shell.lmi.net> References: <470468.56143.qm@web52706.mail.yahoo.com>, <45E941ED.4156.1917F6B7@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070303101549.T76450@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E96261.24311.1996BCD7@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2007 at 10:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are these 10" and 12" ones measuring diagonally? I don't know. I *have* seen a diskette that was considerably larger than 8"--probably a 14-incher that worked with some piece of Japanese medical equipment. But I couldn't even venture what the equipment was or even if it employed digital recording. And let's not forget the old Bernoulli drives with the 5 MB carts. Those were about 8"x12". Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 3 14:04:26 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:04:26 -0500 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <45E9BB82.4040509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200703032004.l23K4WZC083101@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:16:34 -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Chris M wrote: >>> For fun, how's about we create a list of units that >>> had 8" drives. Off the top of my head: >>> >>> TRS-80/Tandy 2,12,16,6000 >>> NEC APC >>> IBM System/23 Datamaster >>> Canon AS-100 (basically external,but all it's drives >>> were seemingly) >>> Xerox 16/8 (external) >>> ...and I'm tired already. Of course even the much more >>> modern IBM AS/400 had them as an option. >>> IBM Displaywriter >> >> Altos >> CCS >> Colonial Data >> Compupro >> Cromemco CDOS >> Cromemco Z2 (Micah) >> Exo SS >> Mega Super >> Morrow >> NEC APC, 9801 >> NEC PC 8801a >> NEC APC H02 >> Talos >> Tecmar >> TRS-80 Mod 2 Lifeboat >> TRS-80 Mod 2 Pickles and Trout >> Vista >> Xerox 820 II >> XOR >> Zenith Z89, Z90 w/ Magnolia SS >> Zenith Z100 >DEC PDP-8 and PDP-11 with RX-01 and RX-02. As long aw we are building a list :) SD Systems SD-100 SD-200 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 3 14:09:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 12:09:19 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303100354.K76450@shell.lmi.net> References: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, <20070303100354.K76450@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E9656F.23996.19A2A861@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2007 at 10:05, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Zenith Z100 > > There are a lot more. Future Data Qyx AES Lanier Wang CPT Varityper Artec National Semiconductor Intel Zilog Motorola ... Cheers, Chuck From james at machineroom.info Sat Mar 3 03:59:20 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 09:59:20 +0000 Subject: Abandoned Prime looking for new home (UK) In-Reply-To: <45E929AE.80700@gjcp.net> References: <45E88BE4.70206@machineroom.info> <45E929AE.80700@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45E946F8.2010007@machineroom.info> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > James wrote: > > >> So come on, give the Prime a new home. Please :) >> >> James > > Bah. Why is all the good stuff at the wrong end of the country, and > crops up right after an expensive month? > > Gordon > Be glad it's on the same land mass :) I had two replies last night - both the the US From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sat Mar 3 10:12:48 2007 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:12:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Call for computer displays at MGC In-Reply-To: <45A70E55.9020707@simpits.com> from "Gene Buckle" at Jan 11, 2007 08:28:05 PM Message-ID: <200703031612.l23GCnb7020011@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Hi all, getting to be that time again and I'm calling for list members that would like to show off their collections at this year's Midwest Gaming Classic. The MGC is the largest electronic entertainment expo in the Midwest (and one of the largest in the country), dedicated to computers, consoles, video arcades and pinballs from past to present. Just to clarify one list member's pre-concern in the past - this is not a "kiddies" show. Though it is a family event, you will not have to deal with "little kiddies" running around your eqiuipment. The bulk of the 2000+ attendees have been 25 and up. Likewise, if you're looking to sell or get rid of equipment you no longer want, this is the place to do it. We actually had a good ammount of people specifically looking for vintage computer equipment last year. The MGC is a two day show (June 9th and 10th) at the Olympia Resort and Conference center (about 30 minutes outside of Milwaukee). Contact me for more info or www.midwestgamingclassic.com. I've worked hard the last 5 years building up the vintage computing representation at the show, including displaying much of my own equipment and archive material (I run the show museum). I'd love to see more list members involved! Contact me directly for any queries, concerns, or needs. Marty From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 3 15:06:29 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:06:29 -0500 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <826564.83270.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <826564.83270.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <528A867B-CBBC-4E6C-A815-F9D5234B0CA4@neurotica.com> On Mar 3, 2007, at 11:09 AM, Chris M wrote: > Got a call from someone here in NJ. He has about 10 > older computers, 1 has the old style "10 inch" floppy > drives. I have to assume that means 8 inch (didn't > bother getting into that with him over the phone) - > but what could it be??? My bet is some sort of Tandy > something or other, for these are the most commonly > found units with those drives. He has to take pictures > and whatnot and e-mail them to me. I haven't got any > finger nails left... > > There never was a 10" drive, was there? Not floppies, as far as I'm aware. Fuji Eagles (2351/2361) have 10.5" platters, but they're anything but "floppy". ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 3 16:02:51 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:02:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <200703032004.l23K4WZC083101@keith.ezwind.net> from Bob Bradlee at "Mar 3, 7 03:04:26 pm" Message-ID: <200703032202.l23M2pIt009880@floodgap.com> > >>> For fun, how's about we create a list of units that > >>> had 8" drives. Off the top of my head: Commodore even did. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 3 16:08:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:08:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <200703032202.l23M2pIt009880@floodgap.com> References: <200703032202.l23M2pIt009880@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070303140800.K85457@shell.lmi.net> Are there ANY 30 year old computer companies that didn't? (not counting "consumer electronics" companies :) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 3 16:19:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:19:28 -0600 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303100354.K76450@shell.lmi.net> References: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <20070303100354.K76450@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E9F470.8070007@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Chris M wrote: >> For fun, how's about we create a list of units that >> had 8" drives. Off the top of my head: >>... > > There are a lot more. I've seen quite a few systems onto which 8" drives had been grafted post-sale too; so far it sounds like there's no guarantee that this isn't the case here. It's almost as open-ended as asking for a list of machines which used a TV as a display (say) :-) Lots of word processor crates seemed to favour 8" drives at one point too; there's a chance it's not even a general-purpose computer (from the user's POV) cheers J. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Mar 3 16:18:51 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:18:51 -0600 Subject: Geek Art Show Message-ID: <00c301c75de1$f58d4750$2e406b43@66067007> A local Art museum here in the Houston area is putting on a Geek Art showing in August and connected me for ideas and possible help. Is there anyone on the list living in this area that may have some computer generated art or any art that would be willing to loan out for the show? Contact me off list if you like to help out. Any suggests from the list on what you would like to see in a geek art show let me know also. Thanks for your time, John Keys From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 16:20:43 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:20:43 -0600 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303140800.K85457@shell.lmi.net> References: <200703032202.l23M2pIt009880@floodgap.com> <20070303140800.K85457@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 3/3/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are there ANY 30 year old computer companies that didn't? > (not counting "consumer electronics" companies :) Apple? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 3 16:30:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 14:30:37 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303140800.K85457@shell.lmi.net> References: <200703032202.l23M2pIt009880@floodgap.com>, <20070303140800.K85457@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E9868D.6513.1A24060A@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2007 at 14:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are there ANY 30 year old computer companies that didn't? > (not counting "consumer electronics" companies :) Now, that's a trick question, Fred! How many computer companies that were around in 1977 are still around today? How about Apple? While I believe one could buy a third-party 8" adapter, the company itself didn't offer an 8" drive option, did they? The SA-400 was about 1976, IIRC. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 3 16:58:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:58:09 -0700 Subject: what are these for? NCR keyboards In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 03 Mar 2007 09:12:48 -0800. <174740.6705.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <174740.6705.qm at web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item > =200084143494&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 Terminals? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Mar 3 17:02:11 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 18:02:11 -0500 Subject: Someone in the UK who can make an 8" disk from my NEC APC images? Message-ID: <200703032302.l23N2228003034@hosting.monisys.ca> I received an email from a gentleman in Burnley, England who has recently received a NEC APC, and managed to format A: instead of B: while attempting to backup the only system disk ... (and he didn't have it write protected). He's found my APC images, but he's not setup to make a 8" disk on a PC. He's asked for my help, however I wanted to check and see if there's someone closer to him (I'm in Canada, so it's a fair ways to post disks). He needs someone who can either write my DOS 2.11 disk image to an 8" floppy for him (it's in ImageDisk format), or someone who has a working APC and can simply copy the DOS 2.11 boot disk. He has blank disks - he just needs someone who can put the system on one for him. Can anyone help? Please contact me and I'll connect the two of you. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 3 17:35:53 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:35:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <45E9868D.6513.1A24060A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703032202.l23M2pIt009880@floodgap.com>, <20070303140800.K85457@shell.lmi.net> <45E9868D.6513.1A24060A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070303150426.T85457@shell.lmi.net> > > Are there ANY 30 year old computer companies that didn't? [use 8"] > > (not counting "consumer electronics" companies :) On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Apple? On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about Apple? While I believe one could buy a third-party 8" > adapter, the company itself didn't offer an 8" drive option, did > they? The SA-400 was about 1976, IIRC. Apple formally announced that they are NO LONGER "a computer company", that they are now a "consumer electronics" company. Yes, Sorrento Valley Associates, and at least one other company, offered a third party 8" disk controller for the ][. Unconfirmed statement: "The earliest prototypes for the AT that Microsoft received had 8" drives, because the 5.25" 1.2M ones weren't ready yet." Even less credible: "The earliest prototypes of the Lisa used 8" drives and diskettes, because the twiggys weren't ready yet." The only pre-release Lisa that I saw already had 5.25" floppy drive, an external hard drive, and an almost working Smalltalk compiler. The earliest 1.2M 5.25" drives that I saw had a 50 pin card edge, instead of 34 pin, and were intended as a plug-in substitute for 8" On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Now, that's a trick question, Fred! How many computer companies that > were around in 1977 are still around today? VERY few, and getting fewer. I've been approached by an outfit that wants me to sell them my xenosoft.com domain name. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 17:03:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:03:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Mar 3, 7 08:44:19 am Message-ID: > For fun, how's about we create a list of units that > had 8" drives. Off the top of my head: There must have been hundreds of machines that used 8" drives... > > TRS-80/Tandy 2,12,16,6000 > NEC APC > IBM System/23 Datamaster > Canon AS-100 (basically external,but all it's drives > were seemingly) > Xerox 16/8 (external) PERQ 1, 1A, 2T1, 2T2, 2T4 Intellec MDS8000 Genrad Futuredate development system (I forget the model number) Philips P851, P854 (and doubtless others) FTS-88 DEC RX01, RX02 (used on PPD8, PDP11 machines) HP9885 drive unit (used, normally, on the HP9825/HP9835/HP9845 machines. Could also be used on the HP9000/200 machines) And that's just the ones I can see without getting up :-) I think HP alsom made a thing called a 9895, which was an 8" drive with an HPIB interface, but I don't have one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 16:59:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 22:59:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E9351A.21877.18E5DD34@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 3, 7 08:43:06 am Message-ID: > > On 3 Mar 2007 at 8:05, Chris M wrote: > > > Yes yes but of course. But that presumes the > > availability of 1. I had never seen one of these > > things until about a year or so ago. > > As far as I know, one was usually part of the 3.5" to 5.25" floppy > adapter frame. My first 1.44MB drive, a Sony, came with one as part That's where all mine came from. I never actually used them, since I made up my own cables with the right connectors, positioned as I wanted them. Some of my adapter kits came with little PCBs with the jumper link I mentioned earlier. This type has all the ground connections commoned on the PCB. The other type is a plastic molding containing 34 contacts that fits over the plug on the back of the 3.5" drive and has a tongue that fits into the edge connector socket. This type, of course, has all 34 connections electrically isolated from each other. I've used those to make plugs to fit edge connectors in other devices -- I remember kludginh a wire-wrap DIL socket into one using a bit of stripboard to extend some of the pins. And I used that to make EPROM cartridges for the Vectrex without having to etch a PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 17:16:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:16:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303140800.K85457@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 3, 7 02:08:57 pm Message-ID: > > Are there ANY 30 year old computer companies that didn't? > (not counting "consumer electronics" companies :) Apple? There was an 8" drive with an Apple ][ interface, but it was a 3rd party product. Acorn? Sinclair? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 17:42:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:42:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: B.M.S. tape format Message-ID: This is on-topic if you think the HP9830 is a computer :-) I'v been thinking about the internal cassette tape drive of that machine, with particular refeerence to being able to read/write the tapes in some other machine. By chance I was looking at the technical manual for the Racal Thermionic (the company name, it doesn't use valves!) Digideck P72. This unit has obvious similarites to internal tape drive on the HP9830, in fact some mechanical parts will interchange between the 2 units. Anyway, it appears the data format is very similar too. There are 2 tracks on the tape. A pules on one track is a '0'. A pulse on the other track is a '1'. And a pules on both tracks together is a marker. The format of a byte on the taoe is M b b b b f b b b b M Where 'M' is a marker (and both markers are part of a given byte, by default, therefrore, there are 2 markers between the data bits of adjacent bytes on the tape), 'b' is a bit of the data byte and 'f' is a flag bit. The flag bit, being in the middle, appears in the same position in the serial-parallel conversion shift register no matter wheter the tape is moving forwards or backwards. I think HP used it to identify the bytes in the fiule header or something. It's not chear whether HP record 2 markers between each byte, or just one. But the Digideck can do either. Anyway, the Racal manual refers to this as 'B.M.S. format'. Has anyone heard of this? A google search doesn't find anyhting that looks relevant. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 17:21:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:21:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR33 Partsbook and Facit 4070 manual Message-ID: >From time to time I get asked about the Teletype ASR33 Parts List (much harder to find than the other 2 volumes of the maintenance manual) and the service documentation for the Facit 4070 paper tape punch (which was used by just about all computer manuafacturers in the early 1970s...) I was poking around on www.hpmuseum.net and _both_ are on that site. The trick is that : HP2752A == ASR33 and HP2895A == Facit 4070 with HP modifications (an extra interface PCB, etc) In the fromer case the 3 volumes of the Teletype docs are available to download separately (the HP manual just gives the modifications to make it HP-compatible, and the schematics), tin the latter case there is one manual, most of which is the Facit service docs and parts lists. -tony From ygehrich at yahoo.com Sat Mar 3 17:55:21 2007 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 18:55:21 -0500 Subject: 8" drives In-Reply-To: References: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070303185444.043d9060@yahoo.com> At 06:03 PM 3/3/2007 Tony Duell wrote: >There must have been hundreds of machines that used 8" drives... The IBM Displaywriter used an 8" drive http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/displayw/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 3 19:24:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:24:08 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: References: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Mar 3, 7 08:44:19 am, Message-ID: <45E9AF38.6743.1AC2E071@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2007 at 23:03, Tony Duell wrote: > I think HP alsom made a thing called a 9895, which was an 8" drive with > an HPIB interface, but I don't have one. Not to mention the HP-125 model 20. It's interesting that HP considered the Model 20 to be a "step up" from the 5.25" floppy Model 10... Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Mar 3 19:26:55 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:26:55 -0500 Subject: QB Format? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070303185444.043d9060@yahoo.com> References: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070303185444.043d9060@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45EA205F.30802@atarimuseum.com> I'm going through and archiving 3.5" disks onto my PC, I've run across a box of disks marked: QB Format and I am unable to read them with some of the disk utils I have, is anyone familiar with this format and know what system it belongs too? I was thinking Amiga perhaps, but I haven't been able to find any reference to Amiga and QB format. Curt From g-wright at att.net Sat Mar 3 19:34:51 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 01:34:51 +0000 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help Message-ID: <030420070134.24121.45EA223A000C675F00005E3921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I have a stack of the orginal VAX Disks (console and set up , 5 1/4 RX50 ) The ones in front of me are for a 8200 series. I would like to copy them but can't get image disk to work. Is this possible or do I have to use a VAX.. I have RT11 on a micro PDP-11 with a RX50 and I think my professional still works. But would really like to get it on a better media for long term storage. Image Disk reads it with out errors 0/0: 300k DD 10 sectors of 512 bytes - G1:9 G2:17 0/1: Single sided 0/0: Single Step 800 sectors (800 data, 0 compressed, 0 unaval) Read complete Trying to write and it has errors from the get go. 0/0: 300k 10 sectors of 512 bytes :format error <0> overun :write error <2> no sector and on ............................. written on a PC with 1.2 HD drive Tried on another 1.2 and on a 360k drive all capable of SD . I tried both HD and DD disks . all bulk erased first. Thanks, Jerry From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 3 19:44:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:44:15 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303150426.T85457@shell.lmi.net> References: <200703032202.l23M2pIt009880@floodgap.com>, <45E9868D.6513.1A24060A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070303150426.T85457@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E9B3EF.8510.1AD548F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2007 at 15:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Are there ANY 30 year old computer companies that didn't? [use 8"] > > > (not counting "consumer electronics" companies :) A few--very few--companies skipped the 8" drive phase. We never bothered at Durango (started 1976). As a result, rather than use the SA-400, we opted to go with Micropolis and started out with the SS 100 tpi 5.25" (1015?). It wasn't a lot of fun--you'd think that 5.25" drives would have all of the problems ironed out from 8" drive experience, but that wasn't the case. Our first systems were delivered in 1978, I think. The Micropolis drive wasn't built on a casting, but used a fairly heavy (1/8") steel plate as the base. Back then, there were also several different clamping arrangements-- and connection was via a single-in-line header instead of the 34- conductor edge connector. I think the early Sony 3.5" drives used a 26-pin header arrangement to answer someone else's question. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 3 22:10:12 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 22:10:12 -0600 Subject: compucolor II on ebay Message-ID: <00a801c75e13$021b6d90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> http://tinyurl.com/yrqnn4 Appears to be in very nice condition. And they are quite rare. Maybe even worth the current price. Jay West From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 23:07:11 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:07:11 -0600 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <030420070134.24121.45EA223A000C675F00005E3921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <030420070134.24121.45EA223A000C675F00005E3921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On 3/3/07, g-wright at att.net wrote: > Hi, > > I have a stack of the orginal VAX Disks (console and > set up , 5 1/4 RX50 ) The ones in front of me are > for a 8200 series. I would like to copy them but can't > get image disk to work. Is this possible or do I have to > use a VAX.. You should not have to use a VAX. There's nothing strange about the low-level format for 8200 console disks (I have an 8200/8300 in my basement, FWIW). > I have RT11 on a micro PDP-11 with a RX50 > and I think my professional still works. But would really like to > get it on a better media for long term storage. Sure. > Image Disk reads it with out errors > 0/0: 300k DD 10 sectors of 512 bytes - G1:9 G2:17 > 0/1: Single sided > 0/0: Single Step > 800 sectors (800 data, 0 compressed, 0 unaval) > Read complete So far, so good... > Trying to write and it has errors from the get go. > 0/0: 300k 10 sectors of 512 bytes > :format error <0> overun > :write error <2> no sector > and on ............................. > > written on a PC with 1.2 HD drive > Tried on another 1.2 and on a 360k drive > all capable of SD . > > I tried both HD and DD disks . all bulk erased first. Hmm... Others on the list can chime in with their floppy expertise, but from the way you are describing what you've tried, it doesn't sound as if you have a clear picture of the media in front of you. RX50 disks are single-sided (as mentioned by imagedisk in your read example, above), 80-track, ten 512 byte-sectors per track for a total of 400Kbytes. Your 360K drive can _not_ write RX50 disks (among other issues, it's a 40-track drive). If you've verified that your 1.2MB drive works as a PC drive, then, presuming you have the right media, you shouldn't have any hardware issues writing RX50 images. Media is where I get a little fuzzy on the details. I've personally only ever written RX50 images to RX50 media. I've never tried to recycle PC floppies, so I'm not sure what the best choice is. I do seem to recall that what you want should *not* have hub reinforcement rings, as they can cause alignment problems in real RX50 drives. If you can score a Teac FD55GFR drive, it can be strapped up to be a _real_ RX33 or strapped to behave "normally" on a PC FC controller. The strapping has to do with motor on and select lines, not data, BTW. I mention the FD55GFR because it was the 5.25" drive DEC shipped after they moved on from the RX50, so you can be sure that you aren't having hardware compatibility issues (plus, it's all-around good, solid 5.25" drive). In your case, I'd run some read/write/verify tests with your 1.2MB drive and PC-compatible floppies and if they show any marginal problems, try cleaning the heads. You can clean the heads in any case, but it might be nice to have a "before" picture to compare post-cleaning performance. If you can locate some real RX50 media, try writing to those. They aren't "magical", but they are pre-formatted for 10 sectors-per-track (MS-DOS uses 9 sectors for 360K disks and 17 sectors for 1.2MB disks, if you didn't remember). As with the RX01s, most DEC equipment can *not* lay down the RX50 low-level format, the Rainbow being the most notable exception. A PC _can_ format an RX50, but you'll need some 3rd-party tool to do that - DOS can't by itself. I'm sure others will be able to chime in with various informed opinions. -ethan P.S. - just found this old doc on the state of RX50s and various versions of DOS and tools for DOS... http://www.classiccmp.org/rainbow/files/rx50faq.doc Dunno what OS you are using to write your disks, but perhaps some info in this FAQ will shed some light. From bpope at wordstock.com Sat Mar 3 23:50:22 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 00:50:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: QB Format? In-Reply-To: <45EA205F.30802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20070304055022.8D0C4162B4@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum > > I'm going through and archiving 3.5" disks onto my PC, I've run across a > box of disks marked: > > QB Format and I am unable to read them with some of the disk utils I > have, is anyone familiar with this format and know what system it > belongs too? I was thinking Amiga perhaps, but I haven't been able to > find any reference to Amiga and QB format. > QuarterBack? An Amiga backup program... Cheers, Bryan From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Mar 4 00:29:38 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:29:38 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 43, Issue 5 Message-ID: <01C75DFC.C6513120@mse-d03> From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: place your bets To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20070303100354.K76450 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Chris M wrote: > For fun, how's about we create a list of units that > had 8" drives. Off the top of my head: Cromemco CDOS Cromemco Z2 (Micah) .... There are a lot more. .......... ------------------------------ AFAIK 8" drives for the Z2 were all third-party; however, the System 3 and 300 were stock 8" drive systems, first the dual Persci's and later Tandon TM 848's. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Mar 4 00:30:14 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:30:14 -0500 Subject: QB Format? Message-ID: <01C75DFC.C7A883C0@mse-d03> Message: 33 Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 00:50:22 -0500 (EST) From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Subject: Re: QB Format? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20070304055022.8D0C4162B4 at mail.wordstock.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum > > I'm going through and archiving 3.5" disks onto my PC, I've run across a > box of disks marked: > > QB Format and I am unable to read them with some of the disk utils I > have, is anyone familiar with this format and know what system it > belongs too? I was thinking Amiga perhaps, but I haven't been able to > find any reference to Amiga and QB format. > QuarterBack? An Amiga backup program... Cheers, Bryan ------------------------------- Also used by PCs; might even still have a copy somewhere. mike From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 00:37:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:37:52 -0800 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: References: <030420070134.24121.45EA223A000C675F00005E3921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net>, Message-ID: <45E9F8C0.4419.1BE21801@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Mar 2007 at 23:07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... Others on the list can chime in with their floppy expertise, > but from the way you are describing what you've tried, it doesn't > sound as if you have a clear picture of the media in front of you. I dunno, RX50 format is easy to copy. Make sure that your 1.2M drive is declared as such in the BIOS setup--if it's confused with a 1.44MB drive, it's not going to work, as 2D operation on a 1.2MB requires a write clock (300KHz) that conforms to a 360 RPM drive. A 1.44MB drive is 300 RPM--so any attempt to write a 2D format using a 250KHz clock rate is guaranteed to fail--you'll run out track before you run out of data. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Mar 3 16:23:51 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:23:51 -0500 Subject: place your bets Message-ID: <0JEC007PXM60QYH4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: place your bets > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 14:08:57 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Are there ANY 30 year old computer companies that didn't? >(not counting "consumer electronics" companies :) > Apple! While there were add on 8" drives Apple started with 5.25. I'm sure there are others. Allison From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 4 03:23:03 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:23:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <00a801c75e13$021b6d90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a801c75e13$021b6d90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Jay West wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/yrqnn4 > > Appears to be in very nice condition. And they are quite rare. Maybe even > worth the current price. It seems to me that the power jack is of a sort commonly used at least in the 1980s for audio equipment. I'm positive one could find a matching cord in the Jameco catalog. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 03:40:40 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:40:40 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: References: <544089.13334.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > TRS-80/Tandy 2,12,16,6000 > > NEC APC > > IBM System/23 Datamaster > > Canon AS-100 (basically external,but all it's drives > > were seemingly) > > Xerox 16/8 (external) > > PERQ 1, 1A, 2T1, 2T2, 2T4 > Intellec MDS8000 > Genrad Futuredate development system (I forget the model number) > Philips P851, P854 (and doubtless others) > FTS-88 > DEC RX01, RX02 (used on PPD8, PDP11 machines) > HP9885 drive unit (used, normally, on the HP9825/HP9835/HP9845 machines. > Could also be used on the HP9000/200 machines) > > And that's just the ones I can see without getting up :-) > > I think HP alsom made a thing called a 9895, which was an 8" drive with > an HPIB interface, but I don't have one. \ I have a HP 9895, it is a monster of dual DSDD 8 inch disk drives with an HPIB as Tony mentions. I also have two or three 9885s. More systems with 8 inch drives are: Lilith Xerox 8010 Star, Alto Tektronix Magnolia, 41XX series of workstations Intel MDS 800, 330 & 380 multibus systems, Development systems MDS II and III (it wasn't until IV they went to 5 1/4 inch disks.) TI 990 & 1000. Altos series 1000 Wang VS & OIS systems Apollo 300, 400, 6XX Lots and lots of CPM systems like Morrow, Cromemco, Columbia Data..... To mention a few that went through my hands. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 4 06:00:53 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:00:53 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <030420070134.24121.45EA223A000C675F00005E3921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <200703041200.l24C0hgL018231@hosting.monisys.ca> > Image Disk reads it with out errors > 0/0: 300k DD 10 sectors of 512 bytes - G1:9 G2:17 > 0/1: Single sided > 0/0: Single Step > 800 sectors (800 data, 0 compressed, 0 unaval) > Read complete > > > Trying to write and it has errors from the get go. > 0/0: 300k 10 sectors of 512 bytes > :format error <0> overun > :write error <2> no sector > and on ............................. > > written on a PC with 1.2 HD drive > Tried on another 1.2 and on a 360k drive > all capable of SD . > > I tried both HD and DD disks . all bulk erased first. Don't use HD disks - as ImageDisk noted in it's initial report, all sectors in the image are double-density. You didn't show all the information, but since it's single-sided, 10 sectors per track, and there are 800 sectors, this tells me it's an 80 track disk. So - don't use a 360K drive (they are only 40 tracks). You shouldn't need to worry about SD capability - there are no SD sectors in the image. The 300k data rate tells me that you recorded this on a 1.2M HD drive - I'm assuming you did not specify a 300-250k data rate translation when you recorded it (?) Assuming all that, it should write back to a 1.2M HD drive with ImageDisk. It should also write back to a 80 track DD drive such as TEAC-55F or SA-460 or TM-100-4. You would need to set a 250->300k data rate translation to write on a DD drive. I don't have any VAX disks to try, however I have read and written Rainbow disks, which are also RX50 and use 80 tracks by 10x512byte sectors, so I know ImageDisk works with this format. 10x512byte sectors can be twitchy on some PC setups. It pushes the limits of the drive and formatting more than the standard PC formats do. Most systems which use 10x512 have a more flexible FDC than the PC does. Some suggestions: - Clean the heads and make sure the drive is working OK. Format a floppy on your PC, then read it with ImageDisk and see if all sectors can be written. ** Don't bother looking at any other suggestions until your ** drive is verified to be operating 100% - Make sure you are using a recent copy of ImageDisk (you can get the latest from my site). Some of the older versions had trouble with gap calculations, especially on "tighter" disks. - Try another PC (not just a different drive). - Try making one of the Rainbow images from my site - this is the same format. NOTE: My images reflect the true data rate of the target system (250k), so you will need to set a 250->300k data rate translation to write them on an HD drive. If this works, then there may be a problem with the imaes you have created - send me one to look at. - Check your drive speed. If it's high, try slowing it to exactly 360 rpm - if it's "bang on", you might try slowing it by 5-10 rpm - this can help if your PC is marginal at the gaps required for 10x512. - Look at the calculated gap sizes, and try reducing them slightly. You shouldn't need to, but it's worth a try - PCs are "highly variable". I don't have VAX disks to try, but I've just successfully made one of my Rainbow images using ImageDisk 1.14 and a HD drive. The speed test shows my drive at 359 rpm. If none of the above helps - send me one of your images and I will see if I can recreate it. Dave PS: I've started writing an FAQ to send in response to numerous emails I receive asking for help with ImageDisk - It's not complete, and I need to tone parts of it down a bit (I was a tad annoyed at yet-another-email-from-someone-who-didn't- read-the-docs when I started it) - but it may be helpful: - I just tried to make a disk with ImageDisk and I am getting errors. - I just made this disk with ImageDisk, but it won't boot. Q: Whats wrong? A: Lots of things can go wrong (this is not an exact science). ImageDisk is a very powerful and flexible tool, however this capability comes at a price - you actually have to know a little bit about what you are doing to make effective use of the tool. I've put the information that you need to know in the ImageDisk documentation and help files, if you really want to make disks that work, take the time to read it and learn about the differences between floppy drives, data rates and the compatibility issues involved. This is the best and most complete answer to the above question. I've been getting more and more mail from people who have obviously "skipped" the documentation, tried to make disk which didn't work right away, so the next step that comes to their mind is to contact me. Please DO NOT ask me for help if you have not read the documentation! Here are the most common problems that people encounter, and the suggestions I have to offer: - Drive type does not match that in which the image was recorded. Most commonly occuring with 5.25" drives. Use IMDU to determine the data rate at which the image was recorded. If the disk was recorded at 250kbps and you are attempting to write with a HD (1.2M) drive, you MUST set the 250->300kbps data rate translation (also, see documentation regarding other compatibility problems). If the disk was recorded at 300kbps and you are attempting to write with a DD (360k) drive, you MUST set the 300->250kbps data rate translation. NOTE: I try to record images on the actual drive type that is used in a particular system - so 5.25" DD images are recorded on a 5.25" DD drive at 250kbps. Most PCs of AT or later vintage with a 5.15" drive will have a 1.2M HD (300kbps) type and data rate translation will have to be used to recreate those images. - PC is not capable of writing single-density. Most PC floppy disk controllers are not capable of single-density operation. Single-density formats have never been officially used on the PC, and many manufacturers do not bother to include the hardware necessary to support single-density operation. Find another PC, or an add-in floppy card which does support single-density operation. - Dirty heads / drive mechanics. You finally got a disk image for your wunder-system from the 70's, so you rooted around in your basement, and found an old DD drive from an XT stuffed in under the bottom shelf. After blowing the bugs and dust out of it, you connect it to your PC - and start making disks. - Funny, they don't seem to be working. Use good clean reliable drives - any drive thats been sitting for "years" is likely to have collected dust and corrosion. This includes the drives in your classic system! - Clean up the host drive(s) before you try and make disks, and the system drive before you try and boot. ImageDisk has plenty of features to help diagnose drive problems. - Marginal disk format. The PC uses a fairly inflexible floppy disk controller chip, which cannot handle data as close to the index pulse as the controllers in some non-PC systems. These system may pack extra data onto the disk (for example, 10x512byte sectors resulting in 400k disks). Some PC controllers can handle this better than others. You may also be able to create the disk by slowing the drive down by 5-10rpm, allowing extra time for the data to be written before the next index pulse occurs. See the ImageDisk notes. - Target system not working Drives go bad, corrosion gets into sockets and connectors, and the computer you are trying to boot may not be as reliable as you think. - Check to make sure the boot drive selects (light comes on) and the motor/diskette spins when you try and boot the system. With some drives, you may hear a click as the head loads. If this does not happen, it's likely that your system isn't even running it's boot program. - With the power-off and diskette removed, try manually positioning the drive head out to the inside position of it's travel. When you power the system on and attempt to boot, you should see the head retract to track-0 (on a few systems, it goes to the middle of it's travel). If it does not move, makes funny/unexpected noises, or appears to move erraticly, clean and lubricate the drive positioner. - If the above looks good, make sure you have the correct/proper boot disk. To verify that the image was written correctly by ImageDisk, try reading the newly written diskette into another image file - then use IMDU to compare them, no differences in the data area should be reported. - Check your console connection - if it's integrated video, do you have a blinking cursor on the screen. If it's a serial TTY do you have it connected to the right port, and is it connected properly. Use an RS-232 "light box" to confirm that RXD, TXD and any control signals used are being correctly driven. Is the terminal set to the right mode and baud rate. - Most operating systems occupy more than one track of the boot disk, so for MOST systems, when you boot, you will see the head step out to the boot track, then it will step in one, two or more tracks, usually pausing slightly on each one as it reads the data from that track. On some systems, it will then seek around the disk, reading system files, directory entries etc. If you are seeing disk activity after the initial seek to the boot track, this is a good sign that the system may be actually booting. - With the terminal disconnected, use a light-box, and note that only ONE of RXD or TXD should be lit. Reconnect the termainal and the other (RXD or TXD) should also light. Watch the light that was on when only the computer was connected to see if it flickesr during the boot process - this indicates that messages are being sent to the terminal - check the terminal settings and connections to determine why you are not seeing them. - If you don't see RXD/TXD activity, try all the other ports on the system - perhaps the boot disk assigns the console to a different port than you expected. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 4 06:06:08 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:06:08 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <45E9F8C0.4419.1BE21801@cclist.sydex.com> References: Message-ID: <200703041205.l24C5xCS019262@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Hmm... Others on the list can chime in with their floppy expertise, > > but from the way you are describing what you've tried, it doesn't > > sound as if you have a clear picture of the media in front of you. > > I dunno, RX50 format is easy to copy. Make sure that your 1.2M drive > is declared as such in the BIOS setup--if it's confused with a 1.44MB > drive, it's not going to work, as 2D operation on a 1.2MB requires a > write clock (300KHz) that conforms to a 360 RPM drive. A 1.44MB > drive is 300 RPM--so any attempt to write a 2D format using a 250KHz > clock rate is guaranteed to fail--you'll run out track before you run > out of data. This is not an issue with ImageDisk, which doesn't look at the BIOS settings at all. My main ImageDisk setup has an internal drive 3.5" HD rive A which is configured as such in the BIOS, and an external cable for attaching 5.25" DD40/DD80/HD or 8" drives as drive B, and the BIOS has been told there is no drive B. This makes it easy to work with ANY drive type - but the downside is that you may have to set a data-rate translation if you are recreating the disk on a different drive type than the one from which it was recorded. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 4 06:17:14 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:17:14 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <200703041200.l24C0hgL018231@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <030420070134.24121.45EA223A000C675F00005E3921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <200703041217.l24CH5qL021042@hosting.monisys.ca> > The 300k data rate tells me that you recorded this on a > 1.2M HD drive - I'm assuming you did not specify a 300-250k > data rate translation when you recorded it (?) > > Assuming all that, it should write back to a 1.2M HD drive > with ImageDisk. It should also write back to a 80 track DD > drive such as TEAC-55F or SA-460 or TM-100-4. You would need > to set a 250->300k data rate translation to write on a DD drive. That should read '300->250k' data rate transation in the last line. If you recorded on an HD drive and did not set a data rate translation, the image will indicate a 300k data rate. This is because HD drives operate at 360rpm and need a higher data rate for the same bit density as a DD drive which operates at 200rpm, and has a data rate of 250k). So to write the image to a DD drive, you need to change the data rate to 250k. I implemented it this way in ImageDisk because it seemed to be the most flexible way to deal with the different data rates, and didn't tie the system to predefined "drive types" (in other words, ImageDisk operates by what it observes and can set at the controller, not at what it "thinks" is attached to the floppy cable), however a lot of people have trouble with it - In a future version of ImageDisk I may change this over to a scheme where you specify a drive type, and have the program automatically determine what the data rate should be. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 4 06:24:23 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:24:23 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <200703041217.l24CH5qL021042@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703041200.l24C0hgL018231@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703041224.l24COEod022116@hosting.monisys.ca> > line. If you recorded on an HD drive and did not set a data rate > translation, the image will indicate a 300k data rate. This is > because HD drives operate at 360rpm and need a higher data rate > for the same bit density as a DD drive which operates at 200rpm, And that should have read '300rpm' - I'm going to stop typing now. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 10:38:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 08:38:51 -0800 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <200703041205.l24C5xCS019262@hosting.monisys.ca> References: , <45E9F8C0.4419.1BE21801@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703041205.l24C5xCS019262@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45EA859B.29273.1E084D8F@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Mar 2007 at 7:06, Dave Dunfield wrote: > This makes it easy to work with ANY drive type - but the downside is > that you may have to set a data-rate translation if you are recreating > the disk on a different drive type than the one from which it was > recorded. Well, 22Disk, Copyqm, etc. doesn't ask the BIOS what's there unless there's no DISKETTE.CFG file anywhere in the command search path, the current directory, or where the command was loaded from. At that point, one punts and uses the BIOS data which works for the vast majority of cases. But for the oddball situation, one to specify oddball drive characteristics; e.g., dual-speed and double-speed drives, slow seek rate, lack of a change line etc. One can define different drives for the same physical interface by simply assigning different drive letters. Once done, it never has to be done again. What almost mandated this was SyDupe--customers would stack two large tower cases together and fill them with drives--to a maximum of 12 (3 controllers x 4 drives each). There was no hope for the BIOS to puzzle that one out. (You could actually write 3 2D copies at once, but 3 HDs was a bit iffy unless you had a fast ISA bus; otherwise you got DMA lost data errors). My own setup is a stack of external drive boxes with labels on them, calling out the drive letter used to access them and what's in the box. Just plug it in and you're good to go--use the drive letter on the box. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 10:44:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 08:44:03 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <00a801c75e13$021b6d90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, Message-ID: <45EA86D3.7507.1E0D117A@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Mar 2007 at 1:23, David Griffith wrote: > It seems to me that the power jack is of a sort commonly used at least in > the 1980s for audio equipment. I'm positive one could find a matching > cord in the Jameco catalog. Also used in the 60's-70's for a lot of business equipment and some terminals. I recall that Four Phase terminals used one on the monitor. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 4 11:05:36 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 09:05:36 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <45EA86D3.7507.1E0D117A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: compucolor II on ebay >Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 08:44:03 -0800 > >On 4 Mar 2007 at 1:23, David Griffith wrote: > > > It seems to me that the power jack is of a sort commonly used at least >in > > the 1980s for audio equipment. I'm positive one could find a matching > > cord in the Jameco catalog. > >Also used in the 60's-70's for a lot of business equipment and some >terminals. I recall that Four Phase terminals used one on the >monitor. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi I've not seen these at Jameco. Does anyone have a Jameco part number? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you?ll love. Compare products and save at MSN? Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 12:22:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:22:28 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <45EA86D3.7507.1E0D117A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45EA9DE4.3283.1E672D73@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Mar 2007 at 9:05, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I've not seen these at Jameco. Does anyone have a Jameco part > number? > Dwight No, they're not in Jameco. The item you need is Belden/Volex P/N 17952--it can be had from several sources. You can probably order one from Mouser. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 4 12:24:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:24:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: what are these for? NCR keyboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <816719.65543.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > > In article <174740.6705.qm at web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item > > =200084143494&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 > > Terminals? Yes probably. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From technobug at comcast.net Sun Mar 4 12:35:29 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:35:29 -0700 Subject: DEC Disks Available In-Reply-To: <200703041802.l24I1MYn045832@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703041802.l24I1MYn045832@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I was just at the local scrapper and had him put aside two RL02s, an RA81, an Unibus crate ( I wasn't able to get the model), a dual cassette box, and the red and orange trim pieces that go at the top and between the units - everything was about to be sent to the shredder. If there is any interest, let me know and I'll pass on the info. I can do any checkout anyone wishes later in the week. CRC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 4 12:35:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:35:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Someone in the UK who can make an 8" disk from my NEC APC images? In-Reply-To: <200703032302.l23N2228003034@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <999298.94632.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave Dunfield wrote: > I received an email from a gentleman in Burnley, > England > who has recently received a NEC APC, and managed to > format > A: instead of B: while attempting to backup the only > system > disk ... (and he didn't have it write protected). > > He's found my APC images, but he's not setup to make > a > 8" disk on a PC. He's asked for my help, however I > wanted to check and see if there's someone closer to > him > (I'm in Canada, so it's a fair ways to post disks). > > He needs someone who can either write my DOS 2.11 > disk > image to an 8" floppy for him (it's in ImageDisk > format), > or someone who has a working APC and can simply copy > the > DOS 2.11 boot disk. He has blank disks - he just > needs > someone who can put the system on one for him. > > Can anyone help? Please contact me and I'll > connect the > two of you. Assuming I could get a 5 1/4" HD drive to work in one of my APC's (assuming the 2nd still works, the first, although working when I acquired it, has since given up the ghost), and have a computer that likes ID (or a computer that ID likes?) for dumping the image onto a 5 1/4, it's possibly I could get one together in a matter of weeks. This assumes though that the 8" disks that I do have work - don't really know. Wouldn't it be better for this gentleman to get a 5 1/4" or 3.5" drive working in his APC? I had been working on an adapter to do the opposite - to connect one of the 8" floppies to a peecee, but I guess I got distracted and the project fell by the wayside. The APC utilizes a 50 pin cable w/headers on each end, like a SCSI cable. Therefore you would need a little printed circuit board that on one side you'd solder a header connector to (to alleviate the hassle of drilling holes) and that would plug into the APC's floppy cable. The other side of the boards would need to mate with a standard floppy cable that would get plugged into the 5 1/4" HD drive (or 3.5"?). Sound reasonable? I could promise I could get to this in reasonable time, but to do so would be lying. If no one is capable of supplying this dude w/what he needs, I suppose you could forward my addy to him Dave, and he can bug me for it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 4 12:38:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:38:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303150426.T85457@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <296850.18948.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> > Unconfirmed statement: "The earliest prototypes for > the AT that Microsoft > received had 8" drives, because the 5.25" 1.2M ones > weren't ready yet." Right-o. But where would they have stuck it? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 4 12:39:21 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:39:21 -0800 Subject: place your bets Message-ID: <45EB1259.F698E7D6@rain.org> > From: Allison > > From: Fred Cisin > >Are there ANY 30 year old computer companies that didn't? > >(not counting "consumer electronics" companies :) > > Apple! While there were add on 8" drives Apple started with 5.25. Ah yes, Lobo Drives made 8" drives available for the Apple computer. The three external drive units I have here all have 8" hard drives in the chassis as well. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 4 12:42:13 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:42:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <45E9B3EF.8510.1AD548F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <884053.66697.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > The Micropolis drive > wasn't built on a > casting, but used a fairly heavy (1/8") steel plate > as the base. Dopey question I guess, but was there anything in the way of a standard alloy used for drives? Was it more aluminum or more zinc? ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 4 12:45:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:45:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <00a801c75e13$021b6d90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <747713.79749.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/yrqnn4 > > Appears to be in very nice condition. And they are > quite rare. Maybe even > worth the current price. > > Jay West Ok, here's probably the zaniest question of the week. How many computers/terminals/or-what-have-you used happy colorful keytops? I really expect you all to work hard at a comprehensive list this time, or I'll get so mad I just might quit the list! LOL LOL LOL don't count on it!! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Mar 4 12:51:46 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:51:46 -0500 Subject: QB Format? In-Reply-To: <01C75DFC.C7A883C0@mse-d03> References: <01C75DFC.C7A883C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <45EB1542.5040108@atarimuseum.com> Mike, Let me know if you do have a copy please.... thank you. Curt M H Stein wrote: > Message: 33 > Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 00:50:22 -0500 (EST) > From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) > Subject: Re: QB Format? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20070304055022.8D0C4162B4 at mail.wordstock.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum > >> I'm going through and archiving 3.5" disks onto my PC, I've run across a >> box of disks marked: >> >> QB Format and I am unable to read them with some of the disk utils I >> have, is anyone familiar with this format and know what system it >> belongs too? I was thinking Amiga perhaps, but I haven't been able to >> find any reference to Amiga and QB format. >> >> > > QuarterBack? An Amiga backup program... > > Cheers, > > Bryan > ------------------------------- > Also used by PCs; might even still have a copy somewhere. > > mike > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 12:56:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:56:08 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <45EA9DE4.3283.1E672D73@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45EA86D3.7507.1E0D117A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <45EA9DE4.3283.1E672D73@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45EAA5C8.24100.1E85FFBE@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Mar 2007 at 10:22, Chuck Guzis wrote: > No, they're not in Jameco. The item you need is Belden/Volex P/N > 17952--it can be had from several sources. You can probably order > one from Mouser. Whoops... While the 17952 would probably work, the polarization is reverse of normal. The "standard" cord is P/N 17280. (I gotta read the fine print!). Mouser has it: http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=17280_8_B1virtualkey 68600000virtualkey686-17280 Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 13:06:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 11:06:25 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <884053.66697.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45E9B3EF.8510.1AD548F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <884053.66697.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45EAA831.24220.1E8F6AA1@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Mar 2007 at 10:42, Chris M wrote: > Dopey question I guess, but was there anything in the > way of a standard alloy used for drives? Was it more > aluminum or more zinc? I have no idea. Some of the standard diecasting alloys can be found here, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the manufacturers "tweaked" the composition a bit: http://www.kineticdiecasting.com/tech.html Heck, I can't get the straight scoop on some brass alloys that I use. Apparently, there were bits and dabs of "additives" that were considered to be trade secrets. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 4 13:18:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:18:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <45EAA831.24220.1E8F6AA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <439745.91847.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Mar 2007 at 10:42, Chris M wrote: > > > Dopey question I guess, but was there anything in > the > > way of a standard alloy used for drives? Was it > more > > aluminum or more zinc? > > I have no idea. Some of the standard diecasting > alloys can be found > here, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the > manufacturers > "tweaked" the composition a bit: > > http://www.kineticdiecasting.com/tech.html > > Heck, I can't get the straight scoop on some brass > alloys that I use. > Apparently, there were bits and dabs of "additives" > that were > considered to be trade secrets. There are innumerable ways of alloying metals, with minute differences yielding materials of astoundingly different properties then you'd be led to believe. On the off chance they were more or less cast from a standard "pile" off stuph is the reason I asked. Some dude casted pieces of a homemade lathe from floppy casings, which I was led to believe were primarily zamac or something similar (zinc based). Which was surprising because the plans he used called for aluminum. http://www.dm.net/~lughaid/barry.htm. Whoops, actually he used the casings from scrapped hard drives, but what would be the difference? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From technobug at comcast.net Sun Mar 4 14:00:04 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:00:04 -0700 Subject: DEC Disks Available In-Reply-To: <200703041802.l24I1MYn045832@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703041802.l24I1MYn045832@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > I was just at the local scrapper and had him put aside two RL02s, > an RA81, an Unibus crate ( I wasn't able to get the model), a dual > cassette box, and the red and orange trim pieces that go at the top > and between the units - everything was about to be sent to the > shredder. If there is any interest, let me know and I'll pass on > the info. I can do any checkout anyone wishes later in the week. Should have noted that the items are in Tucson, Baja Arizona. CRC From g-wright at att.net Sun Mar 4 14:08:17 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 20:08:17 +0000 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help Message-ID: <030420072008.19950.45EB272E0001F27E00004DEE21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Ethan Dicks" : -------------- > On 3/3/07, g-wright at att.net wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have a stack of the original VAX Disks (console and > > set up , 5 1/4 RX50 ) The ones in front of me are > > for a 8200 series. I would like to copy them but can't > > get image disk to work. Is this possible or do I have to > > use a VAX.. > > You should not have to use a VAX. There's nothing strange about the > low-level format for 8200 console disks (I have an 8200/8300 in my > basement, FWIW). > > > I have RT11 on a micro PDP-11 with a RX50 > > and I think my professional still works. But would really like to > > get it on a better media for long term storage. > > Sure. > > > Image Disk reads it with out errors > > 0/0: 300k DD 10 sectors of 512 bytes - G1:9 G2:17 > > 0/1: Single sided > > 0/0: Single Step > > 800 sectors (800 data, 0 compressed, 0 unaval) > > Read complete Heres is where I believe I missed the problem. The disks are not full using Anadisk on the floppy, data ends at cylinder 28 and is blank to the end. Anadisk can scan the whole disk with out errors. with 800 data and no compressed some thing is wrong. If I understand Image disk correctly. I moved to another Image Disk machine (I have 6 now) and its seems to work fine. Although I believe the proof will be by trying them. The new readings are (800 sectors, 472 data, 328 compressed, 0 Unavail) and the Write works with out errors. The original IMD file size was 400k the new one is much smaller. I have writen these out on both DD and HD media. both bulk erased first. > > So far, so good... > > > Trying to write and it has errors from the get go. > > 0/0: 300k 10 sectors of 512 bytes > > :format error <0> overun > > :write error <2> no sector > > and on ............................. > > > > written on a PC with 1.2 HD drive > > Tried on another 1.2 and on a 360k drive > > all capable of SD . > > > > I tried both HD and DD disks . all bulk erased first. > > Hmm... Others on the list can chime in with their floppy expertise, > but from the way you are describing what you've tried, it doesn't > sound as if you have a clear picture of the media in front of you. Boy did you read that one right Thank you Ethan .............. This did help move me along. > > RX50 disks are single-sided (as mentioned by imagedisk in your read > example, above), 80-track, ten 512 byte-sectors per track for a total > of 400Kbytes. Your 360K drive can _not_ write RX50 disks (among other > issues, it's a 40-track drive). > > If you've verified that your 1.2MB drive works as a PC drive, then, > presuming you have the right media, you shouldn't have any hardware > issues writing RX50 images. Media is where I get a little fuzzy on > the details. I've personally only ever written RX50 images to RX50 > media. I've never tried to recycle PC floppies, so I'm not sure what > the best choice is. I do seem to recall that what you want should > *not* have hub reinforcement rings, as they can cause alignment > problems in real RX50 drives. > > If you can score a Teac FD55GFR drive, it can be strapped up to be a > _real_ RX33 or strapped to behave "normally" on a PC FC controller. > The strapping has to do with motor on and select lines, not data, BTW. > I mention the FD55GFR because it was the 5.25" drive DEC shipped > after they moved on from the RX50, so you can be sure that you aren't > having hardware compatibility issues (plus, it's all-around good, > solid 5.25" drive). I did try this and it is the controller that causes the problem. no to sure why ??? I have been re-reading all of my disks with image disk and have found that many of my original disks worked fine but the copies I made on the original hardware had bad tracks. So now I'm re-writing everything and trying it in the original machine if possible. The machine here that did not work was my main machine for 22disk, anadisk and teledisk. But it has a secondary controller (compaticard 4) with 4 more external drives. The most trouble free set up so far is a Adaptec AHA-1542cp SCSI controller with floppy. I now have 4 PC's with this card and have not seen any problems with single density or in this case odd formats. These are the ISA version with a HD SCSI connector on the back. Some of the other version of the card can't do Single density. > > In your case, I'd run some read/write/verify tests with your 1.2MB > drive and PC-compatible floppies and if they show any marginal > problems, try cleaning the heads. You can clean the heads in any > case, but it might be nice to have a "before" picture to compare > post-cleaning performance. If you can locate some real RX50 media, > try writing to those. They aren't "magical", but they are > pre-formatted for 10 sectors-per-track (MS-DOS uses 9 sectors for 360K > disks and 17 sectors for 1.2MB disks, if you didn't remember). As > with the RX01s, most DEC equipment can *not* lay down the RX50 > low-level format, the Rainbow being the most notable exception. A PC > _can_ format an RX50, but you'll need some 3rd-party tool to do that - > DOS can't by itself. > > I'm sure others will be able to chime in with various informed opinions. > > -ethan > > P.S. - just found this old doc on the state of RX50s and various > versions of DOS and tools for DOS... > http://www.classiccmp.org/rainbow/files/rx50faq.doc Dunno what OS you > are using to write your disks, but perhaps some info in this FAQ will > shed some light. I have a good friend that has almost every VAX and PDD machine made so He is going to test these. After these disks get tested, I will post a follow-up. Thank, Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 4 14:20:09 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:20:09 -0500 Subject: Someone in the UK who can make an 8" disk from my NEC APC images? In-Reply-To: <999298.94632.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200703032302.l23N2228003034@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703042020.l24KK080020554@hosting.monisys.ca> > Wouldn't it be better for this gentleman to get a 5 > 1/4" or 3.5" drive working in his APC? I had been > working on an adapter to do the opposite - to connect > one of the 8" floppies to a peecee, but I guess I got > distracted and the project fell by the wayside. I get the impression he's not into making connectors and cables ... Also, the system is known to work - in fact, he still has a couple of boot disks, but they are dedicated to various software packages and he does not have the full CP/M disk with utilities. I was hoping that there might be someone in the UK who has already got a working setup to recreate 8" diskettes with ImageDisk - I can do it here, and make a boot disk which works in my APC in a couple of minutes using the images that I have posted on my site - If someone "over there" can do this, it would be easier to get the diskette to him.... Alternatively, is someone has a working APC with working 8" drives, a copy of the disk made "native" would be fine too. Dave PS: I posted the design for a very simple and easy to make adapter to put an 8" drive on a PC using a standard 5.25" PC cable on my site. Too me about 10 mins to make it. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 4 14:44:26 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:44:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: brightening CRTs Message-ID: So, I've acquired a Wyse 99gt with no screen burn, but I need to turn the contrast up all the way to be visible. Can anyone point me to documents or other resources on brightening the CRT? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 4 15:03:11 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:03:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <296850.18948.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <296850.18948.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070304130155.K26308@shell.lmi.net> > > Unconfirmed statement: "The earliest prototypes for > > the AT that Microsoft > > received had 8" drives, because the 5.25" 1.2M ones > > weren't ready yet." On Sun, 4 Mar 2007, Chris M wrote: > Right-o. But where would they have stuck it? external Did the earliest prototypes of the PC, and later AT, that Microsoft got to work with have cases? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 4 15:36:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:36:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <200703041200.l24C0hgL018231@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703041200.l24C0hgL018231@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070304131712.F26308@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 4 Mar 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > 10x512byte sectors can be twitchy on some PC setups. It > pushes the limits of the drive and formatting more than > the standard PC formats do. Most systems which use 10x512 > have a more flexible FDC than the PC does. > . . . > - Marginal disk format. > The PC uses a fairly inflexible floppy disk controller chip, which > cannot handle data as close to the index pulse as the controllers > in some non-PC systems. These system may pack extra data onto the > disk (for example, 10x512byte sectors resulting in 400k disks). > > Some PC controllers can handle this better than others. > You may also be able to create the disk by slowing the drive > down by 5-10rpm, allowing extra time for the data to be written > before the next index pulse occurs. See the ImageDisk notes. For dealing with such marginal formats, (not necessarily with ImageDisk): When reading or writing preformatted disks, (BUT NOT FORMATING - It will NOT work for formatting, don't even ask), some of the sectors that "can't be found" may be findable by "masking off" the index pulse. As Dave said, the 765 type FDC used in the PC performs a "partial reset" whenever it sees the index pulse, and is not ready to read or write after the index pulse as soon as a WD 179x controller is. If you "mask off" the index pulse, then the FDC never sees the index pulse, and can read sectors that are "right up against" the index. By "mask off", I mean any method of intercepting and eliminating that pulse reaching the FDC. That can include cutting that wire of the cable and splicing in a switch. Or even covering the index hole of the disk with opague tape. Do NOT use tape on the disk unless you are completely willing and able to open the drive and fish out the tape if it falls off! But, be aware that there are some drives, including some of the Teac 55's that rely on the index pulse reaching the drive circuitry to know whether the drive is ready. Tandon TM100's, and Shugart/Panasonic 4x5 drives don't have that problem. In addition, the software that comes with the Central Point option board relies on the index pulse to work. Some of the functions of Dave's software (such as checking drive speed) will also probably need the pulse. Therefore, your method for masking off the pulse must be temporary and/or easily reversible. Once more: the index pulse "band-aid" is only for reading and writing disk sectors. It is not ever for use during formating. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 4 15:40:01 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:40:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <200703041217.l24CH5qL021042@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <030420070134.24121.45EA223A000C675F00005E3921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> <200703041217.l24CH5qL021042@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070304133724.N26308@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 4 Mar 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I implemented it this way in ImageDisk because it seemed to be > the most flexible way to deal with the different data rates, and > didn't tie the system to predefined "drive types" (in other > words, ImageDisk operates by what it observes and can set at the > controller, not at what it "thinks" is attached to the floppy > cable), however a lot of people have trouble with it - In > a future version of ImageDisk I may change this over to a scheme > where you specify a drive type, and have the program automatically > determine what the data rate should be. If/when you do so, please consider including a type of a 360 RPM 3.5" 500K data transefer rate drive. Those are used in some APC machines. (thereby permitting their 8", 5.25"HD, and 3.5"HD drives to all have the same format parameters) 'Course the user could just lie about the drive type to do it. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 4 15:41:40 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 21:41:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <747713.79749.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <692461.52102.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Chris M wrote: Ok, here's probably the zaniest question of the week. How many computers/terminals/or-what-have-you used happy colorful keytops? I really expect you all to work hard at a comprehensive list this time, or I'll get so mad I just might quit the list! LOL LOL LOL don't count on it!! Hmmm, I can only think of one. I'm not sure whether it was the BBC or the Archemedes, but i'm sure one of them had orange function keys (F1 to F12?). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Mar 4 15:30:32 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 15:30:32 -0600 Subject: brightening CRTs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070304152903.0c57a6c0@localhost> At 12:44 PM 3/4/2007 -0800, you wrote: >So, I've acquired a Wyse 99gt with no screen burn, but I need to turn the >contrast up all the way to be visible. Can anyone point me to documents >or other resources on brightening the CRT? Look for a sub-bright pot on the main circuit board? Some CRT-based devices had 'em. Or unsolder the contrast pot and ohm it out to see if it's toast. Ditto a brightness pot if you can find one. -T ----- 638. It is better to be hated for what you are then to be loved for what you are not. - Author Unknown --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 20:56:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:56:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <45E9B3EF.8510.1AD548F6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 3, 7 05:44:15 pm Message-ID: > I think the early Sony 3.5" drives used a 26-pin header arrangement > to answer someone else's question. Certainly some early Sony 3.5" drives used a 26 pin header. They exist in both single and double sided versions, and IIRC there are subtle changes to the interface btween them (the single-sided one uses 1-of-n select lines, the doublesided one has 2 lines binary-encoded). These drives (often?) rotate at 600rpm, and can't easily be replaced with PC drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 21:00:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 03:00:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <45E9F8C0.4419.1BE21801@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 3, 7 10:37:52 pm Message-ID: > I dunno, RX50 format is easy to copy. Make sure that your 1.2M drive > is declared as such in the BIOS setup--if it's confused with a 1.44MB > drive, it's not going to work, as 2D operation on a 1.2MB requires a > write clock (300KHz) that conforms to a 360 RPM drive. A 1.44MB > drive is 300 RPM--so any attempt to write a 2D format using a 250KHz > clock rate is guaranteed to fail--you'll run out track before you run > out of data. I once saw a PC multi-I/O card that couldn't do the 300kbps data rate, I think it just did it as 250kbps.... Needless to say that card went straight back to the suppliers... Anyway, with so few people (other than on this list :-)) using 5.25" drives now, I wonder if most modern PCs can still generate the 300kbps rate, If not, this could explain the problems the OP is having... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 21:26:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 03:26:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <692461.52102.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at Mar 4, 7 09:41:40 pm Message-ID: > > > Chris M wrote: > > Ok, here's probably the zaniest question of the week. > How many computers/terminals/or-what-have-you used > happy colorful keytops? I really expect you all to > work hard at a comprehensive list this time, or I'll > get so mad I just might quit the list! LOL LOL LOL > don't count on it!! > > > > Hmmm, I can only think of one. I'm not sure whether it was the BBC or > the Archemedes, but i'm sure one of them had orange function keys (F1 to > F12?). The BBC micro has 10 red function keys, as did some Archimedes machines. IIRC ,the A3020, bein designed for schools (where the Beeb was common) had the same red keys, the A3010, a home machines (with the same main PCB, just with different options fitted) had bright green function keys. What about the HH Tiger? It has coloured functions keys f0-f7. I can't remembner the order, but f0 is black, f7 is white, f1, f2 abnd f4 are red green and blue in some order, and the others are, of course, magenta, cyan and yellow. The reason was, of course, it used 3 bits for colour, and the encoding was the obvious one. IIRC, the VT52 seires of terminals have a red, grey and blue key with no other markings. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 21:20:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 03:20:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: brightening CRTs In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Mar 4, 7 12:44:26 pm Message-ID: > > > So, I've acquired a Wyse 99gt with no screen burn, but I need to turn the > contrast up all the way to be visible. Can anyone point me to documents > or other resources on brightening the CRT? Firstly, clean the screen if you've not done so already. You can laugh, but it caught me once (after spending a morning with a 'scope looking at a VT100's video amplifier...) If you've got a low emission, CRT there are a few tricks that might help. Firstly, if there's a 'g2' or 'screen' control on the PCB, turn it up a bit. It won;'t do any damage, and it might get a bit more brightness out of the CRT. Increasing the CRT heater voltage can help too, although you do run the risk of buring out the header and ruining the CRT. If there's a series inductor on the CRT base PCB, short it out (it's often enough). If there's a series resistor, drop the value a bit (shorting it out is probably going too far. A fw turns of wire round the flyback transformer core, connected in series with the heater, can provide a bit of a voltage increse too, but, again, be careful (and you are increasing the load on the horizontal output stage and flyback if you try this, which might lead to ehm failing). There used to be things called CRT boosters. Typivally, they worked by over-running the header (about 8-10V for a 6.3V heater), and then applying a high voltage between the cathode and first grid. The strong electric field at the surface of the cathode rips said surface off and exposes fresh emissibe material. It worked reasonably well on older CRTs, but then the manufacturers put less emissive material in in the first place so you couldn't really expose a new layer. It may work, it may totally ruin the CRT, In fact, what abvout replacing the CRT? Is there anything special about it? -tony From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Mar 4 03:22:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:22:01 -0000 Subject: place your bets Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393E16@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> INTEL MDS -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser Sent: 03 March 2007 22:03 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: place your bets > >>> For fun, how's about we create a list of units that had 8" > >>> drives. Off the top of my head: Commodore even did. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 4 05:30:02 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 11:30:02 +0000 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070303150426.T85457@shell.lmi.net> References: <200703032202.l23M2pIt009880@floodgap.com>, <20070303140800.K85457@shell.lmi.net> <45E9868D.6513.1A24060A@cclist.sydex.com> <20070303150426.T85457@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45EAADBA.4070001@gjcp.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > Even less credible: "The earliest prototypes of the Lisa used 8" drives > and diskettes, because the twiggys weren't ready yet." > The only pre-release Lisa that I saw already had 5.25" floppy drive, an > external hard drive, and an almost working Smalltalk compiler. I'm reasonably certain that by the time the Lisa was being worked on, 5.25" drives had exceeded the capacity of 8" drives, and would definitely have been cheaper. Of course all this happened while I was still at school and a resolute Sinclair user, so I could be talking rubbish. Witchy would probably know. Gordon From rogpugh at mac.com Sun Mar 4 16:37:20 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 22:37:20 +0000 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <692461.52102.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <692461.52102.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0b63c05972b7b75b67089f81843a9db0@mac.com> On 4 Mar 2007, at 21:41, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Chris M wrote: > > Ok, here's probably the zaniest question of the week. > How many computers/terminals/or-what-have-you used > happy colorful keytops? I really expect you all to > work hard at a comprehensive list this time, or I'll > get so mad I just might quit the list! LOL LOL LOL > don't count on it!! > > > > Hmmm, I can only think of one. I'm not sure whether it was the BBC or > the Archemedes, but i'm sure one of them had orange function keys (F1 > to F12?). > > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > The Archamedes 3010 and 3020 had either green or red keys but i cant remember which was which. The HH Tiger has multicoured function keys and i also remember there were keyboards for ADB Apple Macs with coloured keys for specific applications... photoshop etc From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 17:26:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 15:26:02 -0800 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <20070304131712.F26308@shell.lmi.net> References: <200703041200.l24C0hgL018231@hosting.monisys.ca>, <20070304131712.F26308@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45EAE50A.13202.1F7D1AC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Mar 2007 at 13:36, Fred Cisin wrote: > Once more: the index pulse "band-aid" is only for reading and writing disk > sectors. It is not ever for use during formating. Said mod can also backfire if the disk has an unreadable sector ID header. Because the 765 returns a SNF error after seeing the index pulse 2 times while searching, the result will be a "Drive not ready error". If you're ambitious, you can add a flip-flop to the index line and divide it by 2 so the controller sees an index pulse every other rotation which ought to help sort things out. Doesn't help much on formatting, but then, tweaking some gap lengths can often squeeze in the required number of sectors even when an IAM is written. ...or you can use a Catweasel. ...or you can wire wrap a prototype board with a WD 17xx/27xx controller for your PC. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 17:32:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 15:32:59 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <0b63c05972b7b75b67089f81843a9db0@mac.com> References: <692461.52102.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <0b63c05972b7b75b67089f81843a9db0@mac.com> Message-ID: <45EAE6AB.1447.1F837545@cclist.sydex.com> > > Chris M wrote: > > > > Ok, here's probably the zaniest question of the week. > > How many computers/terminals/or-what-have-you used > > happy colorful keytops? I really expect you all to > > work hard at a comprehensive list this time, or I'll > > get so mad I just might quit the list! LOL LOL LOL > > don't count on it!! The PC system I'm sitting in front of now--it has a bright orange "Panic" keytop. Oh--the Beehive SuperBee. Some brown keys, others were sort of beige. And many many POS terminals. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 4 17:51:00 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 16:51:00 -0700 Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200702280823.DAA16404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200702280823.DAA16404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45EB5B64.5040508@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > - Input mains: four wires, two windings, which are connected in > parallel for 115V operation and series for 230V operation. > - 5VAC filament winding for B+ rectifier tube. > - ~800VAC CT (400-0-400) winding which is rectified for B+. (With 26V > on the 115V-nominal mains primary, this measured 176V, or ~778V when > running normally.) > - Filament winding for one HV rectifier tube. > - Filament winding for the other HV rectifier tube. > - HV supply winding. > - 6.3VAC CT winding to run the heaters for most tubes. (There are some > 12V-heater tubes, but they all have centre-tapped heaters.) > - There is one more wire unaccounted for. On opening the transformer > case, I find it is a case ground. See: http://www.electra-print.com/ > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > . > From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 18:11:35 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 00:11:35 +0000 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <45EAE6AB.1447.1F837545@cclist.sydex.com> References: <692461.52102.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <0b63c05972b7b75b67089f81843a9db0@mac.com> <45EAE6AB.1447.1F837545@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3/4/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Chris M wrote: > > > > > > Ok, here's probably the zaniest question of the week. > > > How many computers/terminals/or-what-have-you used > > > happy colorful keytops? I really expect you all to > > > work hard at a comprehensive list this time, or I'll > > > get so mad I just might quit the list! LOL LOL LOL > > > don't count on it!! The Amstrad CPC 464 I had as a kid had a lot of funky-coloured keys. ESC and the "Record" key on the built-in tape drive were red. TAB, CAPS LOCK, DEL, COPY, both SHIFTS, and CTRL were green. Both ENTERs were blue. Ed. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 18:22:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 16:22:11 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <692461.52102.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <45EAE6AB.1447.1F837545@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45EAF233.29179.1FB0810C@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Mar 2007 at 0:11, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > The Amstrad CPC 464 I had as a kid had a lot of funky-coloured keys. Didn't the Datapoint terminals also have colored keys? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 4 19:07:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:07:37 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393E16@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393E16@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <45EAFCD9.665.1FDA1809@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Mar 2007 at 9:22, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > INTEL MDS Thought I'd mentioned Intel; add to that the Nat Semi Starplex, Zilog ZDS, Moto Exormacs...almost any pre-1980 development system. Cheers, Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 19:15:09 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 20:15:09 -0500 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <692461.52102.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <0b63c05972b7b75b67089f81843a9db0@mac.com> <45EAE6AB.1447.1F837545@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0703041715i4eb88af9vf28dc84d6d9ce4fa@mail.gmail.com> On 04/03/07, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > The Amstrad CPC 464 I had as a kid had a lot of funky-coloured keys. > > ESC and the "Record" key on the built-in tape drive were red. > TAB, CAPS LOCK, DEL, COPY, both SHIFTS, and CTRL were green. > Both ENTERs were blue. > > Ed. Until, of course, they reached germany, where Schneider decided those colored keys were entirely too funky and repainted them a nice, boring, uniform grey. I seem to recall there having been a bit of a grey market getting french or british 464 (etc) since they were much cooler looking... Joe. From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Mar 4 19:34:34 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 20:34:34 -0500 Subject: QB Format? Message-ID: <01C75E9C.9418A260@mse-d03> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:51:46 -0500 From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Subject: Re: QB Format? Mike, Let me know if you do have a copy please.... thank you. Curt -------------------- That might take a while considering the state of my floppy collection, but I'll keep an eye out (if my recollection is even correct). Meanwhile, try the Amiga version if you can, and also look around for various others; there were several programs named Qbackup and it might well have been one of those. mike ================================================= ------------- M H Stein wrote: > Message: 33 > Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 00:50:22 -0500 (EST) > From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) > Subject: Re: QB Format? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20070304055022.8D0C4162B4 at mail.wordstock.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum > >> I'm going through and archiving 3.5" disks onto my PC, I've run across a >> box of disks marked: >> >> QB Format and I am unable to read them with some of the disk utils I >> have, is anyone familiar with this format and know what system it >> belongs too? I was thinking Amiga perhaps, but I haven't been able to >> find any reference to Amiga and QB format. >> >> > > QuarterBack? An Amiga backup program... > > Cheers, > > Bryan > ------------------------------- > Also used by PCs; might even still have a copy somewhere. > > mike > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 4 19:56:10 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:56:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <0b63c05972b7b75b67089f81843a9db0@mac.com> from roger pugh at "Mar 4, 7 10:37:20 pm" Message-ID: <200703050156.l251uB2Z010816@floodgap.com> > The Archamedes 3010 and 3020 had either green or red keys but i cant > remember which was which. The HH Tiger has multicoured function keys > and i also remember there were keyboards for ADB Apple Macs with > coloured keys for specific applications... photoshop etc My mom does video editing on a G5 using a customized Apple Pro Keyboard with coloured caps for specific functions as you state above. However, Apple doesn't sell these; she bought it from a third-party peripherals house. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Chaos reigns within/Reflect, repent and reboot;/Order shall return. -------- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 4 22:23:13 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:23:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200703050437.XAA24888@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Well, yes - since it would be drawing (to a first approximation) >> zero current. > Not so. There will be an out-of-phase current due to the inductance > of the primary winding. Yes; that's why I said "to a first approximation" - a transformer with totally open secondaries is not quite a resistive load, but the current drawn is generally comparatively small. > IIRC, though, you've got a leak (or short) to earth from some point > in the HV widning, and another point on that winding (the centre-tap > of the B+ part) is deliberately earthed. Yes - when it was in-circuit. Not when it's sitting disconnected, which was the circumstance under which I observed the excessive draw. > That can't be right. Agreed. > And I'll bet that short-to-reath is not just on one turn, in other > words you also have shorted turns there. I agree, especially in view of the "open-circuit" draw. :) > The Z-modulation input is an external brightness control input, used > for some special applications. I once built one. :) (It was a 1Kx1 RAM with circuitry to scroll through all 1K bits, effectively turning it into a 1Kbit shift register, with the data bit controlling the Z input on the 'scope and the X sweep generator triggered by the carry-out from the address counter. Get the clock frequencies about right and hook the input up to a ham's CW sending key and you get a nice little graphic Morse display scrolling past.) >> (The unconnected final winding of the transformer is actually the >> filament winding for the rectifier whose cathode is shown connected to > ^^^^^^^ > Don't you mean anode (plate to you) here? No. Cathode, as in, the part that emits electrons. Which in a filament valve rectifier will of necessity be the filament, so the filament winding connected to that point will peforce be that for the rectifier whose cathode is that filament. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Mar 4 22:49:36 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:49:36 -0600 Subject: spring cleaning: 8" floppies for rx/30 Transaction Data Systems Message-ID: <45EBA160.50102@pacbell.net> I have found a couple boxes of 8" disks; many of the disks are labeled "backup" and are likely boring, but there were a few interesting ones: 065-060400-01 MPDTOS FE USE ONLY QF1 REV 7.00 (SET OF 2) (c) Data General Corporation 1982 and RS/30 STARTER DISKETTE REV. 6.0 FOR CS/10 MOD C1 DISKETTE #1 3-9-83 LICENSE MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF TRANSACTION DATA SYSTEMS, INC. (and other similar RX/30 disks with other labels) Interestingly, RS/30 is still be sold by Transaction Data Systems: http://www.rx30.com/ If anybody wants these, I'll mail them for the price of postage. Please reply off list. From g-wright at att.net Mon Mar 5 00:32:13 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 06:32:13 +0000 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, followup Message-ID: <030520070632.3562.45EBB96A000A97AC00000DEA21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Dave Dunfield" : -------------- > > Image Disk reads it with out errors > > 0/0: 300k DD 10 sectors of 512 bytes - G1:9 G2:17 > > 0/1: Single sided > > 0/0: Single Step > > 800 sectors (800 data, 0 compressed, 0 unaval) > > Read complete > > > > > > Trying to write and it has errors from the get go. > > 0/0: 300k 10 sectors of 512 bytes > > :format error <0> overun > > :write error <2> no sector > > and on ............................. > > > > written on a PC with 1.2 HD drive > > Tried on another 1.2 and on a 360k drive > > all capable of SD . > > > > I tried both HD and DD disks . all bulk erased first. > > Don't use HD disks - as ImageDisk noted in it's initial > report, all sectors in the image are double-density. > > You didn't show all the information, but since it's > single-sided, 10 sectors per track, and there are 800 > sectors, this tells me it's an 80 track disk. > > So - don't use a 360K drive (they are only 40 tracks). > You shouldn't need to worry about SD capability - there > are no SD sectors in the image. > > The 300k data rate tells me that you recorded this on a > 1.2M HD drive - I'm assuming you did not specify a 300-250k > data rate translation when you recorded it (?) > > Assuming all that, it should write back to a 1.2M HD drive > with ImageDisk. It should also write back to a 80 track DD > drive such as TEAC-55F or SA-460 or TM-100-4. You would need > to set a 250->300k data rate translation to write on a DD drive. > > I don't have any VAX disks to try, however I have read and > written Rainbow disks, which are also RX50 and use 80 tracks > by 10x512byte sectors, so I know ImageDisk works with this > format. > > 10x512byte sectors can be twitchy on some PC setups. It > pushes the limits of the drive and formatting more than > the standard PC formats do. Most systems which use 10x512 > have a more flexible FDC than the PC does. Thats the answer ........................... > > Some suggestions: > > snip ............................................................... long reply, lots of help. All is well, the disks booted a VAX 8250 with out any problems as I said in a earlier post it was the controller that caused the problem. I guess that why I have 6 image disk machines. Dave if your reading this, Thanks for a great product. 1) question. I was reading some Cromemco Cromix disks which are 360k DD with sd boot tracks on a 1.2 meg dirve and a SD controller. Disks where all original Cromemco or Dynatech software. I would get 0/0: unable to determine interleave :300k SD - 18 sectors of 128 bytes G1:7 G2:9 0/1 300k DD -10 sectors of 512 bytes G1:13 G2:20 and on.................... (xxx data, xx compresses. 0 unavil) This did not happen on all of the disks (50%) but the first one which is bootable, did have problems. It seemed to read them OK, but I switch to a 360 drive to be safe. I did not try to write any of these but would they still work with the interleave error. The 360k drive setup had no problems at all. -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html Thanks, jerry From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 5 01:56:38 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:56:38 +0000 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <45EAF233.29179.1FB0810C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/3/07 00:22, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 5 Mar 2007 at 0:11, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > >> The Amstrad CPC 464 I had as a kid had a lot of funky-coloured keys. > > Didn't the Datapoint terminals also have colored keys? I'm not familiar with that one, but you made me think of later Newbury Labs terminals (orange function keys) so I dug out my pictures of the storage area at Bletchley Park and there's quite a few multi-coloured keycaps in there: VT220 (well, OK, the LK201 keyboard :p) VT78 HP86 (and possibly HP85 too) Microcolour Graphics ANSI terminals ICL DRS20 and DRS50 MIMI 802 and 803 Torch Communicator (bright red and blue function keys) ICL One-per-desk (see also Merlin Tonto) TRS80 model 2 and 16 Sharp MZ80K and MZ700 Plus some British Telecom terms that are awash with different coloured keys Is anyone keeping score? :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cc at corti-net.de Mon Mar 5 03:15:14 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:15:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: brightening CRTs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070304152903.0c57a6c0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070304152903.0c57a6c0@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Mar 2007, Tom Peters wrote: > At 12:44 PM 3/4/2007 -0800, you wrote: >> So, I've acquired a Wyse 99gt with no screen burn, but I need to turn the >> contrast up all the way to be visible. Can anyone point me to documents >> or other resources on brightening the CRT? > Look for a sub-bright pot on the main circuit board? Some CRT-based devices > had 'em. Or unsolder the contrast pot and ohm it out to see if it's toast. > Ditto a brightness pot if you can find one. And don't forget the screen grid pot. Christian From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 5 05:40:37 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 06:40:37 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <030420072008.19950.45EB272E0001F27E00004DEE21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <200703051140.l25BeU34021178@hosting.monisys.ca> > > > Image Disk reads it with out errors > > > 0/0: 300k DD 10 sectors of 512 bytes - G1:9 G2:17 > > > 0/1: Single sided > > > 0/0: Single Step > > > 800 sectors (800 data, 0 compressed, 0 unaval) > > > Read complete > > > Heres is where I believe I missed the problem. The disks are not full > using Anadisk on the floppy, data ends at cylinder 28 and is > blank to the end. Anadisk can scan the whole disk with out errors. > with 800 data and no compressed some thing is wrong. If I understand > Image disk correctly. This just doesn't make sense ... If there is no data past track 28, ImageDisk could not possibly see 80 tracks worth of valid sectors. What condition is your drive in? - This sounds like a drive which was not stepping correctly - perhaps after fooling with it a bit it has loosened up enough to step the whole disk., Ise the Analyse/test function in ImageDisk to scan for data on various tracks past track 28 - watch the drive and make sure it's stepping correctly. > I moved to another Image Disk machine (I have 6 now) and its seems to > work fine. Although I believe the proof will be by trying them. The > new readings are (800 sectors, 472 data, 328 compressed, 0 Unavail) > and the Write works with out errors. The original IMD file size was > 400k the new one is much smaller. I have writen these out on both > DD and HD media. both bulk erased first. Ok - there is formatting past track 28 - but the fact that ImageDisk saw all sectors as having data still makes me think your drive was not stepping. As noted in my previous message, you should not be using HD media. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 5 05:40:37 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 06:40:37 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <20070304133724.N26308@shell.lmi.net> References: <200703041217.l24CH5qL021042@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703051140.l25BeU32021178@hosting.monisys.ca> > > I implemented it this way in ImageDisk because it seemed to be > > the most flexible way to deal with the different data rates, and > > didn't tie the system to predefined "drive types" (in other > > words, ImageDisk operates by what it observes and can set at the > > controller, not at what it "thinks" is attached to the floppy > > cable), however a lot of people have trouble with it - In > > a future version of ImageDisk I may change this over to a scheme > > where you specify a drive type, and have the program automatically > > determine what the data rate should be. > > If/when you do so, please consider including a type of a 360 RPM 3.5" > 500K data transefer rate drive. Those are used in some APC machines. > (thereby permitting their 8", 5.25"HD, and 3.5"HD drives to all have the > same format parameters) 'Course the user could just lie about the drive > type to do it. I'm still deciding on it - however I would include a "manual" mode where you set up the data rates yourself. The problem is to provide canned "common drive types" for those people who don't want to understand the ins and out of drives, rpm and data rates. Having a 360rpm 3.5" drive would probably just confuse those people. I'd have 3.5", 5.25" DD, 5.25" HD and 8" which are what most people would recognize, and "manual" where it works much like it does now. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 05:43:08 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 03:43:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <884053.66697.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070305114308.63795.qmail@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > The Micropolis drive > > wasn't built on a > > casting, but used a fairly heavy (1/8") steel > plate > > as the base. > > Dopey question I guess, but was there anything in > the > way of a standard alloy used for drives? Was it more > aluminum or more zinc? > Typically just a solid aluminum casting. -Ian From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 5 05:59:34 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 06:59:34 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, followup In-Reply-To: <030520070632.3562.45EBB96A000A97AC00000DEA21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <200703051159.l25BxRCh023990@hosting.monisys.ca> > All is well, the disks booted a VAX 8250 with out any problems > as I said in a earlier post it was the controller that caused the problem. > I guess that why I have 6 image disk machines. Funny - I have one main IMD machine - that one supports single-density and two drives and has taken everything I have thrown at it. Find a machine with a good FDC and stick with it - you should not need 6 separate machines. > 1) question. I was reading some Cromemco Cromix disks > which are 360k DD with sd boot tracks on a 1.2 meg dirve > and a SD controller. Disks where all original Cromemco > or Dynatech software. I have found that with Cromemco disks, I almost always have to slow the drive by about 10rpm - otherwise, depending on the machine it cannot reliably read either the first or last sector on a track. [This is the main reason IMDU can merge images - until I sorted this out, I read Cromemco disks on two machines, one that missed the first sector, and one that missed the last - I could recreate the complete image by merge them...] > I would get > 0/0: unable to determine interleave > :300k SD - 18 sectors of 128 bytes G1:7 G2:9 > 0/1 300k DD -10 sectors of 512 bytes G1:13 G2:20 > and on.................... (xxx data, xx compresses. 0 unavil) > > This did not happen on all of the disks (50%) but the first one > which is bootable, did have problems. > > It seemed to read them OK, but I switch to a 360 drive > to be safe. I did not try to write any of these but would > they still work with the interleave error. The 360k drive setup > had no problems at all. I would recommend doing Cromemco disks on a DD drive. - In general, I recommend using the drive type matching the target system, but this is especially true with Cromemco disks. When ImageDisk analyzes a track, it waits for the index pulse, then scoops up all the sectors until they repeat, recording the sector numbers which it also uses to calculate interleave. It rechecks this by reading a few more revolutions, and "unable to determine interleave" means that additional sectors turned up during the check passes - It tries this a few times and could not get a consistant read. As long as all the sectors are there, it will probably work without the same interleave as the original - although it might take a little longer to read contiguous blocks of sectors. If you know what the sector interleave should be, you can use IMDU to re-interleave the image to that value, or you can tell ImageDisk to write the image with that interleave when you recreate the disk. Another trick you can use is to copy the disk on the target system after you make it with ImageDisk - this will normally restore the interleave to the native formatting for the system. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 06:04:08 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 04:04:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: brightening CRTs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <291186.53610.qm@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Griffith wrote: > > So, I've acquired a Wyse 99gt with no screen burn, > but I need to turn the > contrast up all the way to be visible. Can anyone > point me to documents > or other resources on brightening the CRT? There are numerous ways of brightening old CRT's, all having to do with the filament. Some people "zap" the filament with a sudden jolt to "revive" it, others raise the operating filament voltage, and another trick is to run the tube's filament at a higher than normal voltage for several hours, to "cook" it. Basically, you're trying to get the filament to have a higher electron emission by stripping off the coating of old material. Cooking the tube overnight seems to work pretty well - just hook up a small AC transformer or DC suply of a volt or two more than the tube's filament (for a 6.3 volt filament, try 7 or 8 volts). You might need to build something to supply that voltage. Unhook the tube's neck connector, and connect the wires directly to the filament pins of the tube (aligator clips and tape or something), and run the filament at the higher voltage for a while (this is where a variable DC bench supply comes in handy). Be careful not to burn out the filament. Try it for a few hours, then see how it works. I've heard of people cooking tubes for a couple days (really weak ones) and had them come back well. Another thing I have found is that sometimes if a tube sits for a long time, it will be dim at first, then begin to "wake up" after just letting it run. You might try this first, just turn on the terminal, leave the contrast all the way down so it doesn't burn, and let it run all day. That might even be enough to improve emissions. This is typically something I see on really old TV's though, don't know if a fifteen year old terminal is old enough to have sat long enough to do that. But before you go to the tube brightening stage, I'd look at the terminal. There might be a pot you can adjust inside, or possibly even a bad component causing this - It seems as if I have seen a couple Wyse terminals with this type of failure - might not be the tube. Good luck. -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 09:20:48 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:20:48 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <45EAA831.24220.1E8F6AA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 4 Mar 2007 at 10:42, Chris M wrote: > > > Dopey question I guess, but was there anything in the > > way of a standard alloy used for drives? Was it more > > aluminum or more zinc? > >I have no idea. Some of the standard diecasting alloys can be found >here, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the manufacturers >"tweaked" the composition a bit: > >http://www.kineticdiecasting.com/tech.html > >Heck, I can't get the straight scoop on some brass alloys that I use. >Apparently, there were bits and dabs of "additives" that were >considered to be trade secrets. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi I do know that Shugart used a poor quality pot metal on the hub a floppy drive. I've only see it once but I've seen it a lot on older radios. It is easy to spot, the metal is all expanded and crumbles. I'm told that it is caused by aluminum contamination. It seems that aluminum doesn't alloy well. It tends to accumulate at the crystal boundaries. When it oxidizes, it causes that typical look of cracks and expanded metal. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Win a Zune??make MSN? your homepage for your chance to win! http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 5 09:29:25 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:29:25 -0600 Subject: QB Format? In-Reply-To: <01C75E9C.9418A260@mse-d03> References: <01C75E9C.9418A260@mse-d03> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070305092654.0681a458@mail> At 07:34 PM 3/4/2007, several wrote: >> >> QuarterBack? An Amiga backup program... As I recall, more than ten years ago the entire assets of that company were sold off intact, so the source code might even be out there. It was a reasonably popular Amiga product, so I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find a copy. I would guess that a disk dump would reveal something more telling than "QB". That company also made CrossDOS, a program for reading and writing MS-DOS format disks. - John From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 10:07:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:07:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <767336.83598.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Graham wrote: > VT220 (well, OK, the LK201 keyboard :p) > VT78 > HP86 (and possibly HP85 too) > Microcolour Graphics ANSI terminals > ICL DRS20 and DRS50 > MIMI 802 and 803 > Torch Communicator (bright red and blue function > keys) > ICL One-per-desk (see also Merlin Tonto) > TRS80 model 2 and 16 > Sharp MZ80K and MZ700 > Plus some British Telecom terms that are awash with > different coloured keys > > Is anyone keeping score? :) nah. My contribution though: Canon AS-100 Sanyo MBC-1000 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 10:13:34 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:13:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <639097.2018.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I do know that Shugart used a poor quality pot metal > on > the hub a floppy drive. I've only see it once but > I've seen it a lot > on older radios. It is easy to spot, the metal is > all expanded > and crumbles. > I'm told that it is caused by aluminum > contamination. It seems > that aluminum doesn't alloy well. It tends to > accumulate at the > crystal boundaries. When it oxidizes, it causes that > typical > look of cracks and expanded metal. > Dwight Yep, pot metal (i.e zinc alloys) will do that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_metal. Contamination is likely (I've heard of problems with other metals too, lead...tin...I'm drawing a blank currently). I've heard mention that electricity could do that too, but I think it was an erroneous statement (a dude I used to know sold old model trains, and some of the frames would blow apart as mentioned, and he figured it was due to the current running through it). And I don't think that aluminum doesn't alloy well, but rather it's particular in how it alloys. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 10:16:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:16:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Someone in the UK who can make an 8" disk from my NEC APC images? In-Reply-To: <200703042020.l24KK080020554@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <184753.28072.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> while on the topic, do you think a 1.2meg or 1.44meg would work in an APC w/the proper adapter? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 10:18:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:18:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070304130155.K26308@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <912350.90139.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Unconfirmed statement: "The earliest prototypes > for > > > the AT that Microsoft > > > received had 8" drives, because the 5.25" 1.2M > ones > > > weren't ready yet." > > On Sun, 4 Mar 2007, Chris M wrote: > > Right-o. But where would they have stuck it? > > external > > Did the earliest prototypes of the PC, and later AT, > that Microsoft got to > work with have cases? Whether that question is rhetorical or not, I haven't the answer. Are there pictures of these things somewhere out there? ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 10:19:23 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:19:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <45EAE6AB.1447.1F837545@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <769641.10900.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > The PC system I'm sitting in front of now--it has a > bright orange > "Panic" keytop. Is this new or old? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 10:35:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:35:00 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <769641.10900.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45EAE6AB.1447.1F837545@cclist.sydex.com>, <769641.10900.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45EBD634.29082.232B21D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Mar 2007 at 8:19, Chris M wrote: > Is this new or old? Depends on your definition. The keyboard's a made-in-Germany Cherry (probably one of the best brands out there if you can find one). Too many years ago (maybe 15), one of the office supplies places sent out a bunch of small boxes with a "Panic" keytop (a nice double-shot one) inside with some sort of gimmick advertising message. I noted that the key would fit my Cherry keyboard perfectly, so I replaced the "SysReq" key with it--heaven knows, they key isn't used for much on Windoze. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 10:41:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:41:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <45EBD634.29082.232B21D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <370494.99719.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Mar 2007 at 8:19, Chris M wrote: > > > Is this new or old? > > Depends on your definition. The keyboard's a > made-in-Germany Cherry > (probably one of the best brands out there if you > can find one). Too > many years ago (maybe 15), one of the office > supplies places sent out > a bunch of small boxes with a "Panic" keytop (a nice > double-shot one) > inside with some sort of gimmick advertising > message. I noted that > the key would fit my Cherry keyboard perfectly, so I > replaced the > "SysReq" key with it--heaven knows, they key isn't > used for much on > Windoze. But you could always just steal your wife's nail polish for tricks like that. Regardless I never knew you to be a psyk modder... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 10:53:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:53:09 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <370494.99719.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45EBD634.29082.232B21D3@cclist.sydex.com>, <370494.99719.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45EBDA75.23061.233BBFA3@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Mar 2007 at 8:41, Chris M wrote: > But you could always just steal your wife's nail > polish for tricks like that. Regardless I never knew > you to be a psyk modder... How do you make double-shot keys using nail polish? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 5 10:55:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:55:31 -0600 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45EC4B83.3020705@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > VT220 (well, OK, the LK201 keyboard :p) > VT78 > HP86 (and possibly HP85 too) > Microcolour Graphics ANSI terminals > ICL DRS20 and DRS50 > MIMI 802 and 803 > Torch Communicator (bright red and blue function keys) > ICL One-per-desk (see also Merlin Tonto) > TRS80 model 2 and 16 > Sharp MZ80K and MZ700 > Plus some British Telecom terms that are awash with different coloured keys We've got some Cifer terminals with coloured keys too; I've got a photo of them but don't have a model number handy right now. (From someone else's post) I'm pretty sure the Archimedes 3010 was the one with the green keys; the 3020 used red. Intertec Superbrains and Enterprise 64/128 systems haven't been mentioned yet I don't think. Sinclair ZX80? (OK, so they're all blue :) What about big iron - various PDP8, PDP11, Marconi TAC etc.? Do console switches count as "keytops"? What about early electronic calculators - IME86 etc.? Lots of those used colours for various key functions. Stretching it a bit to call them computers, though (at least for the earlier machines - I'm with Tony in that some of HP's "calculators" were far more like general-purpose computers) cheers Jules From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 10:57:44 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:57:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <45EBDA75.23061.233BBFA3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <831998.88207.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > How do you make double-shot keys using nail polish? No no. You switched cuz it was orange. Tell the truth. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 11:13:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:13:46 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <831998.88207.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45EBDA75.23061.233BBFA3@cclist.sydex.com>, <831998.88207.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45EBDF4A.647.234E9CE2@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Mar 2007 at 8:57, Chris M wrote: > No no. You switched cuz it was orange. Tell the truth. I switched because it said "Panic". From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 5 10:56:02 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:56:02 -0700 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 04 Mar 2007 16:22:11 -0800. <45EAF233.29179.1FB0810C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: The DECmate II (PDP-8 in a VT100 case) has colored keys for the word processing functions. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 11:38:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:38:37 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <45EBE51D.13058.23656497@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Mar 2007 at 9:56, Richard wrote: > The DECmate II (PDP-8 in a VT100 case) has colored keys for the word > processing functions. 1970's CDC terminals had blue and red keys, IIRC. It's been a long time since I've seen one. I don't recall if the original plasma PLATO terminals did--anyone recall? 029 keypunches had some blue keys as well as gray and charcoal- colored keys, IIRC. 024/ 026's were just gray and charcoal, no blue. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 5 12:06:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:06:51 -0700 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:38:37 -0800. <45EBE51D.13058.23656497@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <45EBE51D.13058.23656497 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > 1970's CDC terminals had blue and red keys, IIRC. It's been a long > time since I've seen one. I don't recall if the original plasma > PLATO terminals did--anyone recall? I think the plasma ones and the raster ones both had colored keys. They also had special keys for things like "answer", "help" and so-on. It was all very custom. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 5 13:03:28 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:03:28 -0500 Subject: Someone in the UK who can make an 8" disk from my NEC APC images? In-Reply-To: <184753.28072.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200703042020.l24KK080020554@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703051903.l25J3Mrq006865@hosting.monisys.ca> > while on the topic, do you think a 1.2meg or 1.44meg > would work in an APC w/the proper adapter? A 1.2M 5.25" HD floppy can be substituted for an 8" drive in most cases - It's the same rotational speed and data rate. I haven't looked at doing so with an APC but I would immagine that it's possible. A 3.5" HD will run at the right data rate, however it rotates slower (that you you get 1.44 instead of 1.2M/disk in a PC). I've seen statements from people who indicate that they were able to replace an 8" drive with one, although I've never tried it myself. If the system can tolerate having the index pulses come at a lower rate, and a long gap between the last sector and the index, I can see that it might work... but I can also imagine that in many cases it would not. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 5 13:30:11 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:30:11 -0800 Subject: De Anza (Foothill) Swapmeet this Saturday Message-ID: <45EC6FC3.B68A8E9E@rain.org> The Livermore swapmeet was "mudded" out Sunday, so I am planning on being at the De Anza (foothill) swapmeet in Cupertino (California) this Saturday. I'll be bringing a bunch of stuff I owe to people up there, so if anyone sees anything I have on VCM they would like to buy and have me bring up, let me know. I like "free" shipping :). Also, does anyone who has sold up there know what time to be in line or to get there? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 13:42:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:42:03 -0800 Subject: Someone in the UK who can make an 8" disk from my NEC APC images? In-Reply-To: <200703051903.l25J3Mrq006865@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703042020.l24KK080020554@hosting.monisys.ca>, <184753.28072.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <200703051903.l25J3Mrq006865@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45EC020B.18648.23D665C4@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Mar 2007 at 14:03, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > while on the topic, do you think a 1.2meg or 1.44meg > > would work in an APC w/the proper adapter? > > A 1.2M 5.25" HD floppy can be substituted for an 8" drive > in most cases - It's the same rotational speed and data rate. > I haven't looked at doing so with an APC but I would immagine > that it's possible. > > A 3.5" HD will run at the right data rate, however it rotates > slower (that you you get 1.44 instead of 1.2M/disk in a PC). I strongly suspect that the APC is going to require a READY\ signal. This was the rule on 8" drives more than the exception. Most 3.5" drives and a fair number of 5.25" 1.2MB drives can't provide one. Depending on the way the APC views READY\ change states, you may or may not be able to "get by" with hard jumpering the READY\ signal TRUE. The APC is the forerunner of the 9801, which did employ 8", 5.25" and 3.5" drives, all hosting the same format. The NEC 3.5" drives used are 360 RPM models and are fairly difficult to obtain (if you need a model number, I've got one). It is possible to jumper (needing a soldering iron) some Teac FD235HF models to support 360 RPM recording. You'll still have to provide a READY\ signal, however. You can probably do that with a simple NE555. The 9801 always struck me as having the most common-sense approach to diskette support--the format is identical regardless of the physical medium. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 5 13:44:42 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:44:42 -0800 Subject: De Anza (Foothill) Swapmeet this Saturday Message-ID: <45EC732A.9040101@bitsavers.org> > Also, does anyone who has sold up there know what time to be in line or to get > there? Used to be before dawn, and over by noon. It gets off to a slow start now, so any time before 7. From bob at jfcl.com Mon Mar 5 13:46:35 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:46:35 -0800 Subject: Replacement bulbs for RL0x and RA8x drives? Message-ID: <000201c75f5e$fc186450$1401010a@Rhyme> Could somebody remind me of a source for proper replacement bulbs for the RL01/2 and RA8x drives? Sorry if this is a repeat question - I was pretty sure it had been discussed before, but I couldn't find an answer. BTW, the RL0x and RA8x bulbs are mechanically similar, but they're definitely not the same bulb. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Mar 5 13:52:50 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:52:50 +0100 Subject: Replacement bulbs for RL0x and RA8x drives? References: <000201c75f5e$fc186450$1401010a@Rhyme> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F8EA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> AFAIK, RL01/RL02 bulbs are #73 (14V.) and RA8x bulbs are #86 (6.3V). At least, that's on my webpage, and I think I got that from a manual or from this great list :-) - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Robert Armstrong Verzonden: ma 05-03-2007 20:46 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Replacement bulbs for RL0x and RA8x drives? Could somebody remind me of a source for proper replacement bulbs for the RL01/2 and RA8x drives? Sorry if this is a repeat question - I was pretty sure it had been discussed before, but I couldn't find an answer. BTW, the RL0x and RA8x bulbs are mechanically similar, but they're definitely not the same bulb. Thanks, Bob Armstrong This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 5 14:04:42 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:04:42 -0600 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies Message-ID: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Does anyone know if multiplexing Nixies will significantly reduce their lifespan? Or does it in fact help versus "permanently on as needed"? I'm not sure if it's rapid hot-cold switching that'll kill them or if it's simply down to "on time"... (or even neither :-) I'm reviving the Nixie-based Sudoku idea mentioned on here in the past as I think I've found a good source of tubes in the Ukraine. Latching every digit isn't an option (due to sheer number of ICs required), but likely failure causes dictates how many tubes will participate in each multiplex... cheers Jules From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Mar 5 14:08:12 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:08:12 -0600 Subject: Replacement bulbs for RL0x and RA8x drives? In-Reply-To: <000201c75f5e$fc186450$1401010a@Rhyme> References: <000201c75f5e$fc186450$1401010a@Rhyme> Message-ID: <008d01c75f62$00b19420$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> This should be what you're looking for: http://www.atlantalightbulbs.com/ecart/nw012104/GE73UNIT39218.htm > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 1:47 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Replacement bulbs for RL0x and RA8x drives? > > Could somebody remind me of a source for proper replacement > bulbs for the > RL01/2 and RA8x drives? Sorry if this is a repeat question - > I was pretty sure it had been discussed before, but I > couldn't find an answer. > > BTW, the RL0x and RA8x bulbs are mechanically similar, but > they're definitely not the same bulb. > > Thanks, > Bob Armstrong > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 5 14:16:08 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:16:08 +0000 Subject: DEC BC16E cable Message-ID: Evening folks, Anyone know of a decent source of BC16e cable? We're trying to replace a drum of the stuff at work so we're not after it for nothing (though that's a nice price :)) but actually finding a known source in the UK is proving difficult. Any tips appreciated. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 5 14:44:18 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:44:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <912350.90139.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <912350.90139.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070305124140.L74549@shell.lmi.net> > > Did the earliest prototypes of the PC, and later AT, > > that Microsoft got to > > work with have cases? > On Mon, 5 Mar 2007, Chris M wrote: > Whether that question is rhetorical or not, I haven't > the answer. Are there pictures of these things > somewhere out there? not rhetorical (Don't you hate rhetorical questions?) There don't seem to be pictures, and the people are getting scarcer. I had a friend who worked at Microsoft in those days (and before, when you could ask for somebody on the phone by first name), but he died a few years ago. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 5 15:00:11 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:00:11 -0500 Subject: HP 400 series Message-ID: <006a01c75f69$49ae4130$0b01a8c0@game> Anybody know much about the HP 400 series of 68K Unix machines? Is the OS for this system still available, also can you rig a VGA monitor to one? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 5 15:05:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:05:07 -0700 Subject: HP 400 series In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:00:11 -0500. <006a01c75f69$49ae4130$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: In article <006a01c75f69$49ae4130$0b01a8c0 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Anybody know much about the HP 400 series of 68K Unix machines? Is the = > OS for this system still available, also can you rig a VGA monitor to = > one? The University of Utah ported BSD to these machines. They were widely used throughout the UofU CS department in the late 80s/early 90s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Mon Mar 5 15:16:18 2007 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:16:18 +0100 Subject: HP 400 series References: <006a01c75f69$49ae4130$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <001601c75f6b$877b69a0$0103a8c0@xp1800> You can use, OpenBSD or NetBSD or HPUX if you can find the 68K version and Rocky Mountain Basic (RMB version 5.11 at www.hpmuseum.net) . Gr. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:00 PM Subject: HP 400 series > Anybody know much about the HP 400 series of 68K Unix machines? Is the OS > for this system still available, also can you rig a VGA monitor to one? > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Mar 4 17:00:45 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:00:45 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help Message-ID: <0JEE0084AIJ3VOZ8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 03:00:37 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> I dunno, RX50 format is easy to copy. Make sure that your 1.2M drive >> is declared as such in the BIOS setup--if it's confused with a 1.44MB >> drive, it's not going to work, as 2D operation on a 1.2MB requires a >> write clock (300KHz) that conforms to a 360 RPM drive. A 1.44MB >> drive is 300 RPM--so any attempt to write a 2D format using a 250KHz >> clock rate is guaranteed to fail--you'll run out track before you run >> out of data. > >I once saw a PC multi-I/O card that couldn't do the 300kbps data rate, I >think it just did it as 250kbps.... Needless to say that card went >straight back to the suppliers... > >Anyway, with so few people (other than on this list :-)) using 5.25" >drives now, I wonder if most modern PCs can still generate the 300kbps >rate, If not, this could explain the problems the OP is having... > >-tony Wrong. The RX50 format and RX33 formats are very differnt. The RX33 is PC compatable and was not used for VMS floppy sets. The RX50 drive is a Single sided 80 track (96tpi) double density drive with the oddity of two spindles and one head positioner. I have used FD55F as a single drive repelacement as RX50s are not very reliable and noisy (acousticlly). The RX33 drive (FD55GFR or similar) in the slow mode also works fine. The problem is to fit 10sectors DEC used the WD1793 and fudged the format some to truncate the Index mark gap and end of track gap. The 765 will read this if: it is the 765A or 7265 and the drive is not running fast (works better if running 1% slow!). The 765 has a built in ship over index time and the later versions had this time shortend or eliminated in the case of the 7265. The easy fix is slow the drive a few percent till it starts reading. The hard way fix is to crank up the clock driving the 765by 2% (replace the 8/16/24or 32mhz clock with one 2% faster). It's harder as finding a clock that is just a tad faster is not common. FYI: some PC floppy controller work better than others due to implmentation differnces internal to the integrated flavors of the 765 (9266, 8243, 37C65m 37C665...). Me I cheat, I use either the PDP11 or a real microVAX with RX50 or rx33 and avoid the pain. Allison From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 17:09:21 2007 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 23:09:21 +0000 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/3/07 03:26, "Tony Duell" wrote: > The BBC micro has 10 red function keys, as did some Archimedes machines. > IIRC ,the A3020, bein designed for schools (where the Beeb was common) > had the same red keys, the A3010, a home machines (with the same main > PCB, just with different options fitted) had bright green function keys. Also the Amstrad CPC464, 472 and 664, Enterprise 64 and 128, Tatung Einstein, most Amigas (I can only see an A4000 from here), the original Memotech MTX had bright blue function keys but they were dropped from the production run, the Exidy Sorceror has darker cursors etc and I remember using a keyboard on the ACT Sirius 1 at college that had a load of bright coloured keys on it but I can't remember if it was an ACT product or not. From jeffreyperez at excite.com Mon Mar 5 14:01:46 2007 From: jeffreyperez at excite.com (Jeff Perez) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:01:46 -0500 Subject: Need info on Roytron paper tape reader/punch Message-ID: <20070305200226.DA7A9197BE@smtp.excite.com> Try here http://bitsavers.vt100.net/roytron/ Tell me if you want to sell one it does not need to be working My father was the inventor for this unit (see US Pat. 3201570 - Filed Dec 27, 1961) Jeff Perez From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Mar 4 17:28:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:28:31 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help Message-ID: <0JEE0066WJTDCWOF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 07:00:53 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Image Disk reads it with out errors >> 0/0: 300k DD 10 sectors of 512 bytes - G1:9 G2:17 >> 0/1: Single sided >> 0/0: Single Step >> 800 sectors (800 data, 0 compressed, 0 unaval) >> Read complete >> >> >> Trying to write and it has errors from the get go. >> 0/0: 300k 10 sectors of 512 bytes >> :format error <0> overun >> :write error <2> no sector >> and on ............................. >> >> written on a PC with 1.2 HD drive >> Tried on another 1.2 and on a 360k drive >> all capable of SD . >> >> I tried both HD and DD disks . all bulk erased first. > >Don't use HD disks - as ImageDisk noted in it's initial >report, all sectors in the image are double-density. To affirm this, as exDEC RX50 is DD (250kbs). >You didn't show all the information, but since it's >single-sided, 10 sectors per track, and there are 800 >sectors, this tells me it's an 80 track disk. > >So - don't use a 360K drive (they are only 40 tracks). >You shouldn't need to worry about SD capability - there >are no SD sectors in the image. Correct The RX50 drive is a dual spindle single head positioner 80 track (96tpi) drive. >The 300k data rate tells me that you recorded this on a >1.2M HD drive - I'm assuming you did not specify a 300-250k >data rate translation when you recorded it (?) It's not 300 data rate it's 250! >Assuming all that, it should write back to a 1.2M HD drive >with ImageDisk. It should also write back to a 80 track DD >drive such as TEAC-55F or SA-460 or TM-100-4. You would need >to set a 250->300k data rate translation to write on a DD drive. > >I don't have any VAX disks to try, however I have read and >written Rainbow disks, which are also RX50 and use 80 tracks >by 10x512byte sectors, so I know ImageDisk works with this >format. VAX, Rainbow and otehr DEC RX50 media are all the same save for the filesystems. The only other DEC 5.25 formats are RX180 (Robin aka VT180 which is 40 track single sided DD 180k) and Vaxmate (286 PC like) that used the RX33 drive for standard PC 1.2mb format. There is a VAX RX33 format that was found in microVAX2000 or RQDX3 controller for QBUS systems [must be late firmware on the MSCP sontroller]. That format was a flavor of 1.2mb PC format and also did RX50 using FD55GFR (aka RX33 drive). Older firmware RQDX-1/2/3 controller only did RX50 format. >10x512byte sectors can be twitchy on some PC setups. It >pushes the limits of the drive and formatting more than >the standard PC formats do. Most systems which use 10x512 >have a more flexible FDC than the PC does. > >Some suggestions: > >- Clean the heads and make sure the drive is working OK. > Format a floppy on your PC, then read it with ImageDisk > and see if all sectors can be written. > >** Don't bother looking at any other suggestions until your >** drive is verified to be operating 100% > >- Make sure you are using a recent copy of ImageDisk (you > can get the latest from my site). Some of the older > versions had trouble with gap calculations, especially > on "tighter" disks. > >- Try another PC (not just a different drive). Important as PC controler vary in implmentation at the subtle level. >- Try making one of the Rainbow images from my site - this > is the same format. > NOTE: My images reflect the true data rate of the target > system (250k), so you will need to set a 250->300k > data rate translation to write them on an HD drive. > If this works, then there may be a problem with the > imaes you have created - send me one to look at. > >- Check your drive speed. If it's high, try slowing it to > exactly 360 rpm - if it's "bang on", you might try slowing > it by 5-10 rpm - this can help if your PC is marginal at > the gaps required for 10x512. This works and can help greatly. Also make sure the PC is trying to run the 1.2mb drive at 300rpm and NOT 360 or switching to 300kbs while using the nominal 360rpm as NEITHER WILL WORK. RX50 is NOT 1.2mb mode its a 80track flavor of DD (400k per disk single sided). This is a foreign format and requires forcing the PC hardware in many cases. I cheat I use a FD55E (96tpi, single sided 360rpm only) as then the PC cannot force 300 rpm. >- Look at the calculated gap sizes, and try reducing them > slightly. You shouldn't need to, but it's worth a try - PCs > are "highly variable". ;) you got that one nailed. >I don't have VAX disks to try, but I've just successfully made >one of my Rainbow images using ImageDisk 1.14 and a HD drive. >The speed test shows my drive at 359 rpm. Rainbow RX50 and VAX RX50 are same on disk low level format. The filesystems are very different but if your reading sectors (raw) then they are identical. I may add that XXDP(x11 diags) on RX50 and RT-11 on RX50 also share that common media level format. In DEC parlance RX50 refers to 80tracks, 96tpi, single sided with 10 sectors per track and 512bytes persector formatted at a data rate of 250kbs @360 rpm. It also refers to the drive known as RX50. Hole this clears up some misconceptions. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Mar 4 17:44:06 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:44:06 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help Message-ID: <0JEE007G7KJC1HJE@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help > From: g-wright at att.net > Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 20:08:17 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >-------------- Original message from "Ethan Dicks" : -------------- > > >> On 3/3/07, g-wright at att.net wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > I have a stack of the original VAX Disks (console and >> > set up , 5 1/4 RX50 ) The ones in front of me are >> > for a 8200 series. I would like to copy them but can't >> > get image disk to work. Is this possible or do I have to >> > use a VAX.. >> >> You should not have to use a VAX. There's nothing strange about the >> low-level format for 8200 console disks (I have an 8200/8300 in my >> basement, FWIW). >> >> > I have RT11 on a micro PDP-11 with a RX50 >> > and I think my professional still works. But would really like to >> > get it on a better media for long term storage. >> >> Sure. >> >> > Image Disk reads it with out errors >> > 0/0: 300k DD 10 sectors of 512 bytes - G1:9 G2:17 >> > 0/1: Single sided >> > 0/0: Single Step >> > 800 sectors (800 data, 0 compressed, 0 unaval) >> > Read complete > > >Heres is where I believe I missed the problem. The disks are not full >using Anadisk on the floppy, data ends at cylinder 28 and is >blank to the end. Anadisk can scan the whole disk with out errors. >with 800 data and no compressed some thing is wrong. If I understand >Image disk correctly. >I moved to another Image Disk machine (I have 6 now) and its seems to >work fine. Although I believe the proof will be by trying them. The >new readings are (800 sectors, 472 data, 328 compressed, 0 Unavail) >and the Write works with out errors. The original IMD file size was >400k the new one is much smaller. I have writen these out on both >DD and HD media. both bulk erased first. > HD media will have an increased likelyhood of errors as its the wrong media for tha data rate. > > >> So far, so good... >> >> > Trying to write and it has errors from the get go. >> > 0/0: 300k 10 sectors of 512 bytes >> > :format error <0> overun >> > :write error <2> no sector >> > and on ............................. >> > >> > written on a PC with 1.2 HD drive >> > Tried on another 1.2 and on a 360k drive >> > all capable of SD . >> > >> > I tried both HD and DD disks . all bulk erased first. >> >> Hmm... Others on the list can chime in with their floppy expertise, >> but from the way you are describing what you've tried, it doesn't >> sound as if you have a clear picture of the media in front of you. > > >Boy did you read that one right Thank you Ethan .............. This did help >move me along. > >> >> RX50 disks are single-sided (as mentioned by imagedisk in your read >> example, above), 80-track, ten 512 byte-sectors per track for a total >> of 400Kbytes. Your 360K drive can _not_ write RX50 disks (among other >> issues, it's a 40-track drive). >> >> If you've verified that your 1.2MB drive works as a PC drive, then, >> presuming you have the right media, you shouldn't have any hardware >> issues writing RX50 images. Media is where I get a little fuzzy on >> the details. I've personally only ever written RX50 images to RX50 >> media. I've never tried to recycle PC floppies, so I'm not sure what >> the best choice is. I do seem to recall that what you want should >> *not* have hub reinforcement rings, as they can cause alignment >> problems in real RX50 drives. The Problem os If the 1.2mb drive works your're cooked as the format is not 1.2mb or even close. You would be testing for the worng thing. >> If you can score a Teac FD55GFR drive, it can be strapped up to be a >> _real_ RX33 or strapped to behave "normally" on a PC FC controller. >> The strapping has to do with motor on and select lines, not data, BTW. >> I mention the FD55GFR because it was the 5.25" drive DEC shipped >> after they moved on from the RX50, so you can be sure that you aren't >> having hardware compatibility issues (plus, it's all-around good, >> solid 5.25" drive). Either strapping the FD55GFR for 360rpm only and 250kbs data rate only or better yet use a FD55E. >I did try this and it is the controller that causes the problem. no to sure >why ??? > >I have been re-reading all of my disks with image disk and have found >that many of my original disks worked fine but the copies I made on the >original hardware had bad tracks. So now I'm re-writing everything and >trying it in the original machine if possible. The machine here that did not >work was my main machine for 22disk, anadisk and teledisk. But it has a >secondary controller (compaticard 4) with 4 more external drives. FYI: IF the original hardware has an RX50 drive.. thats your problem as they tended to have speed and alignment problems galore. when the RX50 drive is questionable (all are untill proven working!!!) I sub in a pair of FD55E or suitably (nonDEC jumpering) jumpered pair of FD55GFR with a hacked up cable and pull the RX50. Since I have a collection of Qbus VAXen and Qbus PDP-11s it's far easier to rely on the RQDX3 and RX33 drives as they do RX50 just fine and do not incur the RX50 relability issues. Also the RX50 is just plain LOUD. Allison >The most trouble free set up so far is a Adaptec AHA-1542cp SCSI >controller with floppy. I now have 4 PC's with this card and have not seen >any problems with single density or in this case odd formats. These are the >ISA version with a HD SCSI connector on the back. Some of the other >version of the card can't do Single density. > >> >> In your case, I'd run some read/write/verify tests with your 1.2MB >> drive and PC-compatible floppies and if they show any marginal >> problems, try cleaning the heads. You can clean the heads in any >> case, but it might be nice to have a "before" picture to compare >> post-cleaning performance. If you can locate some real RX50 media, >> try writing to those. They aren't "magical", but they are >> pre-formatted for 10 sectors-per-track (MS-DOS uses 9 sectors for 360K >> disks and 17 sectors for 1.2MB disks, if you didn't remember). As >> with the RX01s, most DEC equipment can *not* lay down the RX50 >> low-level format, the Rainbow being the most notable exception. A PC >> _can_ format an RX50, but you'll need some 3rd-party tool to do that - >> DOS can't by itself. >> >> I'm sure others will be able to chime in with various informed opinions. >> >> -ethan >> >> P.S. - just found this old doc on the state of RX50s and various >> versions of DOS and tools for DOS... >> http://www.classiccmp.org/rainbow/files/rx50faq.doc Dunno what OS you >> are using to write your disks, but perhaps some info in this FAQ will >> shed some light. > >I have a good friend that has almost every VAX and PDD machine made >so He is going to test these. > >After these disks get tested, I will post a follow-up. > >Thank, Jerry > >Jerry Wright >g-wright at att.net From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Mar 4 23:36:06 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 05:36:06 -0000 Subject: compucolor II on ebay Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393E17@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> DEC LK Keyboard series used coloured characters and symbols on keycaps Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Burton Sent: 04 March 2007 21:42 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: compucolor II on ebay Chris M wrote: Ok, here's probably the zaniest question of the week. How many computers/terminals/or-what-have-you used happy colorful keytops? I really expect you all to work hard at a comprehensive list this time, or I'll get so mad I just might quit the list! LOL LOL LOL don't count on it!! Hmmm, I can only think of one. I'm not sure whether it was the BBC or the Archemedes, but i'm sure one of them had orange function keys (F1 to F12?). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 5 03:01:05 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:01:05 +0000 Subject: brightening CRTs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45EBDC51.5030200@gjcp.net> David Griffith wrote: > So, I've acquired a Wyse 99gt with no screen burn, but I need to turn the > contrast up all the way to be visible. Can anyone point me to documents > or other resources on brightening the CRT? > Inside there will be a couple of resistors feeding a high voltage to the various grids inside the tube. If you can't get a service manual for this terminal, pretty much any mono monitor's manual will give you the idea. The resistors tend to be very high value - a couple of meg. These seem to go high-resistance just for fun, and if you measure them you may find that they read 10M or more (if your meter goes that high!) Gordon From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Mar 5 15:40:12 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:40:12 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C45C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chris M wrote: Ok, here's probably the zaniest question of the week. How many computers/terminals/or-what-have-you used happy colorful keytops? I really expect you all to work hard at a comprehensive list this time, or I'll get so mad I just might quit the list! LOL LOL LOL don't count on it!! Billy: I'm certain you'll see all kinds of answers. This is an old idea, reinvented every generation of keyboards. Coloured keys was a common technique long before the PC world. In the late '50's, different colours were used to indicate which keys represented instructions - this was back in the days of inputting your program directly through the keyboard. A good example is the RPC-4000 or LPG-30. Before that, there were some keyboards that were used for more than one language, with switches to control the language. I saw this on some of the Fujitsu computers of the mid-50's. The keyboard could input normal English characters or Kanji. The Kanji characters were colour coded to reflect the root character. Saw that same concept on many other keyboards that used characters unique to a language all through the early computer industry around the world. Going further back, some of the linotypes were modified for special characters and used different coloured key tops for special characters. I've seen photos of this from the 30's and 40's. I'll have to ask the typewriter egroup what they think is the oldest. I would bet it goes back to the earliest typing machines. Billy From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 5 16:03:38 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:03:38 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <0JEE0066WJTDCWOF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200703052203.l25M3WT9023657@hosting.monisys.ca> > >The 300k data rate tells me that you recorded this on a > >1.2M HD drive - I'm assuming you did not specify a 300-250k > >data rate translation when you recorded it (?) > > It's not 300 data rate it's 250! No - ImageDisk reports what it found - his original posting indicated 300k data rate. This tells me that he read the DD (250k at 300rpm) disk in a 1.2M PC drive which was spinning at 360 rpm. If I were doing that, I would specify a 300-250k data rate translation, which would cause ImageDisk to write the file indicating the correct native density of 250kbps, however the ImageDisk information display always indicates the actual data rate determined from the disk. This is how most PCs read/write double-density on HD drives. They use a single-speed 360 rpm drive, and use a data rate of 300kbps instead of 250. > Also make sure the PC is trying to run the 1.2mb drive at 300rpm > and NOT 360 or switching to 300kbs while using the nominal 360rpm > as NEITHER WILL WORK. RX50 is NOT 1.2mb mode its a 80track flavor > of DD (400k per disk single sided). This is a foreign format > and requires forcing the PC hardware in many cases. I cheat > I use a FD55E (96tpi, single sided 360rpm only) as then the PC > cannot force 300 rpm. 300k does not mean HD: 300 rpm & 250kbps = DD (or SD if MGM encoding) 360 rpm & 300kbps = DD (same bit density) 360 rpm & 500kbps = HD 1.2M PC format 300 rpm & 500kbps = HD 1.44M PC format Most PC 5.25" HD drives do not do 300rpm - they always run 360rpm and the controller uses 300kbps data rate. If it were HD it would be 500kbps. ImageDisk does not know or care what kind of drive is attached, and when analyzing the disk, it has no preconcieved notion of what it should be seeing - it scans all available densities and data rates and determines what it can read - that is why ImageDisk files do NOT have an indication of "drive type" - ImageDisk doesn't know about drives - only what it can see and manipulate at the controller (as noted in a previous email, I an considering changing this as it confuses some people, but at the moment, ImageDisk does not think in terms of "drives" - it thinks in terms of density and data rate). When reading 96tpi DD disks, I use a Teac-55F which is a 300rpm DSDD drive. This gives me the native 250k date rate the way god intended :-) > In DEC parlance RX50 refers to 80tracks, 96tpi, single sided > with 10 sectors per track and 512bytes persector formatted > at a data rate of 250kbs @360 rpm. It also refers to the drive > known as RX50. Sorry, but that doesn't make sense - 10x512 DD format is done at 250kbps / 300rpm - standard double-density. PeeCee HD drives will do it at 300kbps / 360rpm. I am not aware of any DD formats that use 250kbps / 360rpm, Although ImageDisk should handle this if the drive can ... (Chuck?) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 5 16:21:18 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:21:18 -0000 Subject: Replacement bulbs for RL0x and RA8x drives? References: <000201c75f5e$fc186450$1401010a@Rhyme> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F8EA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <003d01c748aa$a4daa060$6600a8c0@BILLING> Henk wrote... > AFAIK, RL01/RL02 bulbs are #73 (14V.) and RA8x bulbs are #86 (6.3V). Oops. That would explain why the bulbs I took from an RA81 and put in an RL02 are soooo bright! Jay From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 16:22:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:22:39 -0800 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <0JEE0084AIJ3VOZ8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JEE0084AIJ3VOZ8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <45EC27AF.31169.24696BE9@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Mar 2007 at 18:00, Allison wrote: > Wrong. The RX50 format and RX33 formats are very differnt... Ah. So an easy accommodation is to declare a 360RPM 1.2MB drive as a 1.44MB 3.5". That keeps the 250Kbps data rate for low density while the drive keeps spinning happily at 360 RPM. There's still the issue of the missing IAM gap, but some National chips (8473 IIRC) seem to be a bit more tolerant. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 5 16:56:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:56:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Mar 5, 7 07:56:38 am Message-ID: > > > >> The Amstrad CPC 464 I had as a kid had a lot of funky-coloured keys. > > > > Didn't the Datapoint terminals also have colored keys? > > I'm not familiar with that one, but you made me think of later Newbury Labs > terminals (orange function keys) so I dug out my pictures of the storage > area at Bletchley Park and there's quite a few multi-coloured keycaps in > there: Hang on, what are we looking for here? If it's just machines where not all the keycaps are the same colour, it would be quicker to list those that don't have at least one odd-coloured key (darn it, the TRS-80 Model 1 has the 'Clear' key in white with all the other keys black). I thought were were looking for machines with very unusual colours on the keyboard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 5 17:06:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:06:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <45EC4B83.3020705@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 5, 7 10:55:31 am Message-ID: > What about big iron - various PDP8, PDP11, Marconi TAC etc.? Do console > switches count as "keytops"? The Philips P850- has red and green toggles for the 16 bit data entry register, arranged in blocks of 4 (i.e. each hex digit is all one colour). The corresonding lamps have red or green filters too (I've not seen multi-coloured lamps on other frontpanels, but I am sure the P851 is not unique in this respect). > > What about early electronic calculators - IME86 etc.? Lots of those used > colours for various key functions. Stretching it a bit to call them computers, There's an HP9810 alongside me. It has white-beige keys, grey keys, dark grey keys, pale yellow keys and orange-yellow keys. Is that a computer? The internal architecture is much the same as a computer (it's a CPU connected to ROM and RAM memory), it is user-programmable. > though (at least for the earlier machines - I'm with Tony in that some of HP's > "calculators" were far more like general-purpose computers) I fail to see how any reasonable definition of 'computer' would exclude the HP9830, HP9825, etc. -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Mar 5 17:26:27 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:26:27 +0000 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45ECA723.90401@gifford.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > production run, the Exidy Sorceror has darker cursors etc and I remember > using a keyboard on the ACT Sirius 1 at college that had a load of bright > coloured keys on it but I can't remember if it was an ACT product or not. Probably not. I have an INMOS-modified Sirius that has those coloured keys. It was one of the original hosts for the Transputer Development System. Legend had it at INMOS that if you had a bright, hot desklamp, it would melt the wax that was used to fill in the labelling on the special keys. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 5 17:35:21 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:35:21 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies References: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45ECA939.814DBDE7@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone know if multiplexing Nixies will significantly reduce their > lifespan? Or does it in fact help versus "permanently on as needed"? > > I'm not sure if it's rapid hot-cold switching that'll kill them or if it's > simply down to "on time"... (or even neither :-) > > I'm reviving the Nixie-based Sudoku idea mentioned on here in the past as I > think I've found a good source of tubes in the Ukraine. Latching every digit > isn't an option (due to sheer number of ICs required), but likely failure > causes dictates how many tubes will participate in each multiplex... > > cheers > > Jules I don't have a definitive answer, but I think the issue is more peak current than hot-cold switching. Whether the life-determinant is absolute peak current or peak current integrated over time though, I don't know. Most test equipment is non-multiplex, while most calculators use multiplex mode. In calculators the duty cycle is typically 1/12 to 1/16. The NIXIE's used in test-equipment vs calculators are, by my observation, in pretty much mutually exclusive sets: I've rarely if ever seen a NIXIE type that was used in one piece of equipment in one mode that was used in another piece of equipment in the other mode. Consequently I have wondered whether there was a difference between NIXIEs made for mux mode vs. not (different gas pressure perhaps?), and have had my eye out for manufacture data that might answer that, but haven't run across anything that actually specified multiplex mode criteria. Also, just by experience, I run into more bad NIXIEs in test equipment (non-mux mode) than in calculators (mux mode). Granted that it may well be other issues that are more significant in producing those distinctions in observation (numeral size, operation behaviour, period, etc.). The anode limiting resistor gets dropped in value for mux mode use (although not in linear proportion), with the consequent increase in peak current. One or two Sudoku rows in a multiplex set might give some benefit of multiplexing but still keep the duty cycle and peak current in 'typical' range. I'm tempted to also build in an infra-red motion detector (adapt one of those outside light sensors) to reduce un-utilised on-time in such situations. I could supply you with some display-driver schematics from calculators, for examples of how the anode drivers are typically done, if you like. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 17:38:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:38:00 -0800 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <200703052203.l25M3WT9023657@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <0JEE0066WJTDCWOF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <200703052203.l25M3WT9023657@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45EC3958.8818.24AE68DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Mar 2007 at 17:03, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Sorry, but that doesn't make sense - 10x512 DD format is done > at 250kbps / 300rpm - standard double-density. PeeCee HD drives > will do it at 300kbps / 360rpm. I am not aware of any DD formats > that use 250kbps / 360rpm, Although ImageDisk should handle this > if the drive can ... (Chuck?) I think I've got one in 8" that does this--it's single-density, so so the data rate really is 125Kbps. If you're really curious, I can dig some and find out. The 2.8" sorta-floppies used in the SCM PWP's ran at a data rate of something like 62.5Kpbs, but I wouldn't consider that a "real" floppy--more like a streaming tape laid out on a floppy cookie. Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Mar 5 17:39:12 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:39:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: NASA cards In-Reply-To: <45E83A2D.7030701@bitsavers.org> References: <45E83A2D.7030701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al: Will we be able to see the listing of those cards you just won from NASA? :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 5 18:06:51 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:06:51 -0800 Subject: NASA cards Message-ID: <45ECB09B.6000505@bitsavers.org> > Will we be able to see the listing of those cards you just won from > NASA? :-) I'm assuming they are binaries for the IBM 704, since they are described as 704 column binary. the auction was http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330095278250 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 18:19:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:19:46 -0800 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <200703052203.l25M3WT9023657@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <0JEE0066WJTDCWOF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <200703052203.l25M3WT9023657@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45EC4322.15311.24D4A403@cclist.sydex.com> At sometime today, Allison wrote: > It's not 300 data rate it's 250! Well, let's see what the numbers say. 360 RPM is 6 revolutions per second or 0.167 second/revolution 300 RPM is 5 revolutions/sec or 0.200 seconds/rev. Thus, the raw capacity of a 300 RPM drive at 250Kbps is 50,000 bits or 6250 bytes. The raw capacity of a 360 RPM drive at 250kpbs is 41667 bits or 5208 bytes. On the RX50, since there are 10 sectors of 5120 bytes, we have 6250-5120 = 1130 bytes for gaps and ID marks, CRCs, etc. on a 300 RPM drive. On a 360 RPM drive, one has 5208-5120 = 88 bytes for all that overhead. Not considering gaps yet: There are 10 bytes for a IDAM: A1 A1 A1 FE cc hh rr nn cr cr, where cc is the cylinder number, hh is the head number, rr is the sector number, nn is the sector length code and cr cr is the CRC for the IDAM. To that, add the data preamble of 4 bytes A1 A1 A1 FB and a 2 byte CRC and you have (without gaps) 15 bytes per sector or 150 bytes for a 10-sector track--and we're out of space already at 360 RPM before we can add the barest of gaps (e.g. 12 bytes of 00 preamble for the IDAM, 12 bytes of 00 preamble before the DAM... You just can't do it at 250Kpbs and 360 RPM. Heck, 10x512 is a fairly tight fit at 300 RPM. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Mar 5 18:15:37 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:15:37 -0800 Subject: HP 400 series Message-ID: <69e9d6c75457b1018e0a218ccc8e6f76@valleyimplants.com> Your OS depends on the keyboard. HP 400s were the "hybrid" models made after HP acquired Apollo, so from the factory they were set up to run either HP-UX (9 or earlier) with a HP-HIL keyboard or mouse, or DOMAIN/os (Aegis) with a Domain keyboard. Switching between the two requires keyboard/mouse swap and setting one value in the NVRAM. I've only used DOMAIN on my 425, since HP-UX of the early '90s has been described as not spectacular. SR10.4 works well, and with the y1k997 patches it seems to tick along just fine in the 21st century. DOMAIN is neat since it's so network-transparent and very unusual, but with the BSD or SysV environments the learning curve is not nearly as big as with the Aegis environment. Of course, NetBSD can be run on them with a HP-HIL keyboard setup as well, but I think it's pretty evident which camp I'm in. Bear has some manuals on his site (www.typewritten.org) Scott From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 5 19:46:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 18:46:07 -0700 Subject: HP 400 series In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:15:37 -0800. <69e9d6c75457b1018e0a218ccc8e6f76@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: In article <69e9d6c75457b1018e0a218ccc8e6f76 at valleyimplants.com>, Scott Quinn writes: > Of course, NetBSD can be run on them with a HP-HIL keyboard setup as > well, but I think it's pretty evident which camp I'm in. Bear has some > manuals on his site (www.typewritten.org) I've not used Hockey-Pux and I've barely used Domain OS. It seemed odd, but somewhat interesting; I seem to recall there was a command-line type console window on the graphics display in the bottom of the screen and there was some sort of menu on the side (left or right, I can't honestly recall). NetBSD from the UofU was a pleasure to run and I never had any problems with it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lee at geekdot.com Mon Mar 5 19:49:28 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 02:49:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Multiplexing Nixies Message-ID: <1750.82.71.40.17.1173145768.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Does anyone know if multiplexing Nixies will significantly reduce their > lifespan? Or does it in fact help versus "permanently on as needed"? Looking at the datasheet for the non multiplexed GN4 nixie the different cathode currents are given as .. Cathode current 2mA Maximum continuous current 3mA Maximum pulse current 4mA .. So from that I'd guess multiplexed nixies are a special breed. Lee. From bear at typewritten.org Mon Mar 5 21:10:53 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:10:53 -0800 Subject: HP 400 series In-Reply-To: <006a01c75f69$49ae4130$0b01a8c0@game> References: <006a01c75f69$49ae4130$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On Mar 5, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Anybody know much about the HP 400 series of 68K Unix machines? Is > the OS for this system still available, also can you rig a VGA > monitor to one? They will run HP-UX up to 9.x (9.05 is canonical, though I have seen 9.07), or the Apollo DOMAIN/OS at SR10 (SR10.4.1 is the final release). Neither OS has been "current" for fifteen years. Media is still floating around, but you will have to dig a bit to find it. Peripherals and add-in cards (and tape drives for that matter) are not generally interchangeable between DOMAIN and HP-UX releases. If you have a system set up for HP-UX, you'll need at the very least a different keyboard and mouse to run DOMAIN/OS, very likely a new network interface card, and potentially an entirely different card cage (ISA vs. DIO-II). If you'll give me a week I'll have the S400 hardware maintenance manual published on my website, which gives illustrated parts breakdowns, LED diagnostic codes, part numbers, troubleshooting procedures, etc. for the series 400 workstations. There are also incomplete ports of BSD around for this platform. A VGA monitor can be used with the color VRX framebuffer as long as it supports 1280x1024 @ 60Hz with composite-sync-on-green. The AT- looking keyboard port will NOT accept a PC-AT keyboard! It's for a DOMAIN keyboard (for running DOMAIN/OS) which is a different beast entirely. HTH. Did you have other, more specific questions? ok bear From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 5 23:09:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:09:35 -0700 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta Message-ID: I've hacked together an RSS feed for the 50 most recently added PDF files to bitsavers based on pdf/Whatsnew.txt. I'd appreciate it if some other people would subscribe to this RSS feed in their web browsers/RSS readers and let me know how well it works. Features: - parses out the file path from pdf/name/name/name.pdf to 'name :: name :: name', hopefully trying to make it more legible. - Takes anything after the first space on the line to be a description of the file. These haven't been added to the .txt file for some time, but if they're there, I'll pick them up. - adds categories based on the first name in the path, i.e. the company name folder on bitsavers - includes the PDF itself as a linked attachment (through the vt100.net mirror) - is updated once an hour - is generated from a one page perl script "Some day in the future" features - extract first page of the PDF as an image and link with a thumbnail -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 23:34:19 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:34:19 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson > > >Does anyone know if multiplexing Nixies will significantly reduce their >lifespan? Or does it in fact help versus "permanently on as needed"? > ---snip--- Hi It is not a good idea to multiplex Nixies. They don't always strike exactly when the voltage is applied. This means you can't go too fast. Also, if the current is too high ( not just the average ), it causes the gas to heat up too much and it changes the ionization. This causes a more distructive violet glow that will eventually cause the bulb to get contaminated by blasting the electrodes. Unlike LED's, running them at too low a current doesn't just make them glow less brightly, it tends to make them glow only over part of the electrode. Most applications use one driver per Nixie. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Rates near 39yr lows! $430K Loan for $1,399/mo - Paying Too Much? Calculate new payment http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18226&moid=7581 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 23:58:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:58:29 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: References: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk>, Message-ID: <45EC9285.819.260ABD69@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Mar 2007 at 21:34, dwight elvey wrote: > It is not a good idea to multiplex Nixies. They don't always strike > exactly when the voltage is applied. This means you can't go too > fast. Also, if the current is too high ( not just the average ), it > causes the gas to heat up too much and it changes the ionization. > This causes a more distructive violet glow that will eventually > cause the bulb to get contaminated by blasting the electrodes. > Unlike LED's, running them at too low a current doesn't just > make them glow less brightly, it tends to make them glow only > over part of the electrode. Don't plasma displays use an ionizing current that essentially idles the "off" pixels just below the glow point? (so-called "Dark Current"). Could one perhaps build a multiplexed Nixie display that employed the same principle? Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 6 00:15:22 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:15:22 -0800 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta Message-ID: thanks Richard! > Takes anything after the first space on the line to be a > description of the file. These haven't been added to the .txt > file for some time, but if they're there, I'll pick them up. If someone wants to add the descriptions, that would be great. I should do it when I add the entries, but.. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 6 01:03:57 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:03:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: making nixies Message-ID: Has anyone considered teaming up with someone who makes neon signs to make a nixie tube? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 6 01:22:25 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:22:25 -0700 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:15:22 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > thanks Richard! I'll do one for the bits folder too in a little while. Let's see if there are any bugs in this script first. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Mar 5 19:26:41 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:26:41 -0000 Subject: place your bets Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DA2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I don't know about cases but I do remember a TV program where an IBM guy reached into a drawer and produced the first and original wire wrapped 8088 PC prototype board. Talk about 'mother of many'!! Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 05 March 2007 20:44 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: place your bets > > Did the earliest prototypes of the PC, and later AT, that Microsoft > > got to work with have cases? > On Mon, 5 Mar 2007, Chris M wrote: > Whether that question is rhetorical or not, I haven't the answer. Are > there pictures of these things somewhere out there? not rhetorical (Don't you hate rhetorical questions?) There don't seem to be pictures, and the people are getting scarcer. I had a friend who worked at Microsoft in those days (and before, when you could ask for somebody on the phone by first name), but he died a few years ago. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 02:09:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:09:52 -0500 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: References: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 3/6/07, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > It is not a good idea to multiplex Nixies.... > Most applications use one driver per Nixie. Like other posters in this thread, I have seen Nixies multiplexed and direct-driven. I have a 3.5 digit DPM at my elbow I've written about recently that is non-multiplexed (Buroughs tubes FWIW), and a bare PCB I picked up many, many years ago at Dayton from what was most likely a calculator, sporting 10-12 Nixies (and a neon bulb minus sign) with all the electrodes wired in parallel and the envelopes (plates?) run off the board independently - obviously a multiplexed arrangement. I'm entirely willing to entertain notions that there are multiplex-compatible and non-multiple varieties of Nixies, or that care must be taken when designing a multiplexing timing circuit, but I am certain that in many if not most calculator designs, the Nixies are multiplexed. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 02:26:48 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:26:48 -0500 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/6/07, Richard wrote: > I've hacked together an RSS feed for the 50 most recently added PDF > files to bitsavers based on pdf/Whatsnew.txt. > > Neat! > I'd appreciate it if some other people would subscribe to this RSS > feed in their web browsers/RSS readers and let me know how well it > works. Done... poked around a bit... never used RSS before - never saw a feed interesting enough to bother loading a plug-in. It all seems to render OK. Thanks for the efforts. Looking forward to improvements in the future. -ethan From bear at typewritten.org Tue Mar 6 02:29:52 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:29:52 -0800 Subject: HP 400 series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F9AAA01-6D7B-47A7-B9DD-3C450F0A7967@typewritten.org> On Mar 5, 2007, at 5:46 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <69e9d6c75457b1018e0a218ccc8e6f76 at valleyimplants.com>, > Scott Quinn writes: > >> Of course, NetBSD can be run on them with a HP-HIL keyboard setup as >> well, but I think it's pretty evident which camp I'm in. Bear has >> some >> manuals on his site (www.typewritten.org) > > I've not used Hockey-Pux and I've barely used Domain OS. It seemed > odd, but somewhat interesting; I seem to recall there was a > command-line type console window on the graphics display in the bottom > of the screen and there was some sort of menu on the side (left or > right, I can't honestly recall). Yes, the DM is not much like what we think of today as a GUI, although technically, that's what it is. While we're on the subject, I have a copy of the DOMAIN System User's Guide (ca. SR9) available in PDF format on my website. It paints a pretty thorough picture of how the DOMAIN system is really nothing like UNIX or X11. http://www.typewritten.org/Articles/Apollo/005488-02.pdf ok bear From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Mar 6 02:56:47 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:56:47 +0100 Subject: place your bets Message-ID: <20070306085647.41340@gmx.net> --- dwight elvey wrote: > (...) I've seen it a lot on older radios. It is easy to spot, the metal > is all expanded and crumbles. That condition (called "Zinkpest" in German) is also well known (and loathed!) for attacking the rotor disks in some types of old pinwheel calculating machines, especially those made in GDR and Russia. So long, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de "Feel free" - 5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS/Monat ... Jetzt GMX ProMail testen: www.gmx.net/de/go/mailfooter/promail-out From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 6 04:14:54 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 02:14:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070306085647.41340@gmx.net> References: <20070306085647.41340@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Mar 2007, Arno Kletzander wrote: > --- dwight elvey wrote: > > (...) I've seen it a lot on older radios. It is easy to spot, the metal > > is all expanded and crumbles. > > That condition (called "Zinkpest" in German) is also well known (and > loathed!) for attacking the rotor disks in some types of old pinwheel > calculating machines, especially those made in GDR and Russia. Hmm, there isn't a Wikipedia article for zinc pest. Fixed! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 6 04:38:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:38:42 -0700 Subject: HP 400 series In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Mar 2007 00:29:52 -0800. <6F9AAA01-6D7B-47A7-B9DD-3C450F0A7967@typewritten.org> Message-ID: In article <6F9AAA01-6D7B-47A7-B9DD-3C450F0A7967 at typewritten.org>, "r.stricklin" writes: > While we're on the subject, I have a copy of the DOMAIN System User's > Guide (ca. SR9) available in PDF format on my website. It paints a > pretty thorough picture of how the DOMAIN system is really nothing > like UNIX or X11. > > http://www.typewritten.org/Articles/Apollo/005488-02.pdf Hey, that's very interesting, thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 6 07:53:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:53:40 -0600 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45ED7264.2000506@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > "Some day in the future" features > > - extract first page of the PDF as an image and link with a > thumbnail I suppose (or is it like that already?) bitsavers needs some form of database [1] linking filenames to descriptions; it'd be easy to have an "overview page number" field in there which dictated what page was thumbnailed and displayed to the user. [1] not necessarily full-blown db; could be single flat-file, multiple files one per dir etc. or whatever was suitable. Personally I find I sometimes get lost in the archive (via the web interface) though as a filename often doesn't obviously correspond to a document title. Maybe I'm missing something obvious and that's just user error :-) cheers Jules From cc at corti-net.de Tue Mar 6 08:36:09 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:36:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <45ED7264.2000506@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45ED7264.2000506@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose (or is it like that already?) bitsavers needs some form of database > [1] linking filenames to descriptions; it'd be easy to have an "overview page > number" field in there which dictated what page was thumbnailed and displayed > to the user. > > [1] not necessarily full-blown db; could be single flat-file, multiple files > one per dir etc. or whatever was suitable. That file exists and is named IndexByDate.txt in the top level directory. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Tue Mar 6 08:49:33 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:49:33 +0100 (CET) Subject: DEC VT11 display processor Message-ID: While repairing our VT11 that hangs the Unibus as soon as you point the light pen to the high frequency fluorescent room illumination (which makes playing lunar lander a pain) I've discovered that the schematics of the M7014 board (bus control & bootstrap) as found in the GT40 engineering drawings (from bitsavers) do not correspond to our board (a M7014-YA). The document number for the M7014 board is D-CS-M7014-0-1. Does anyone have the document numbered D-CS-M7014-YA-1 in electronic form (or even the complete VT11 engineering drawings)? Christian From accutron at woh.rr.com Tue Mar 6 08:58:16 2007 From: accutron at woh.rr.com (Micah Mabelitini) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:58:16 -0500 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies Message-ID: <45ED8188.6010603@woh.rr.com> Cathode poisoning in nixies is caused by them being left on the same digit for a long time, usually days or months. Consistently running them on the same digit (first digit in a 12-hour clock, first digits on a frequency counter that doesn't blank unused digits) will also cause relative darkening of the adjacent cathodes, and occasionally some sputter will actually cause an internal short circuit which may or may not ultimately destroy the tube. Multiplexing should extend the life of the tubes. Running nixies at less than their rated current will increase their lifespan, and running them over-current for shorter periods will often rejuvenate them. Regards, Micah Mabelitini From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Mar 6 09:03:17 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:03:17 -0000 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005c01c76000$be0cb9c0$3504010a@uatempname> Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 6 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I suppose (or is it like that already?) bitsavers needs some form of >> database [1] linking filenames to descriptions; it'd be easy to have >> an "overview page number" field in there which dictated what page >> was thumbnailed and displayed to the user. >> >> [1] not necessarily full-blown db; could be single flat-file, >> multiple files one per dir etc. or whatever was suitable. > > That file exists and is named IndexByDate.txt in the top level > directory. Given that vt100.net is also a bitsavers mirror, I would expect that the bitsavers entries in the database (at least for the supported manufacturers) would be reasonably accurate. Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 27/02/2007 15:24 From andy at smokebelch.org Tue Mar 6 09:11:19 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:11:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Meiko Computing Surface software. Message-ID: <20070306150050.M18884@plum.flirble.org> Hello, I have two Meiko Computing Surface nodes I'm hoping to soon finally get round to restoring. Removal of dust, cobwebs and rust is one thing, but I sadly don't have any software for them, e.g. 'MeikOS', CS Tools, link adapter drivers etc. One is a 1st generation CS with boards filled with transputers, a host/monitor board, RAM card and gfx card. Also have a PC ISA link adapter and a connecting cable made from something akin to miniature flat twinax (well the links did run at 10Mb/s). The 2nd node is a later CS/i860 (aka Concerto), which again has transputers but also as the name suggests i860 CPUs, and a module which is a Sparc 1+ front end processor. Sadly the HDD had died and so I couldn't recover the SunOS 4 install along with the kernel bits for the link adapters and any other platform software. Pretty sure the NVRAM has had it too but that is the least of my worries... If anyone could help locating any Meiko software else just point me in the right direction it would be very much appreciated. Regards, Andrew ---------------- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 6 09:12:00 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:12:00 -0800 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta Message-ID: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> > I suppose (or is it like that already?) bitsavers needs some form of database This is difficult to do the way that it is hosted and mirrored currently. Right now, it is just a directory heirarchy with a couple of files I have to manually edit and upload every time I add something (IndexByDate and Whatsnew in the pdf directory) There are no equivalent files in the 'bits' directory. I know Jay would like it to distribute the transfer load across the mirrors, too. From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue Mar 6 09:23:16 2007 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:23:16 -0500 Subject: Meiko Computing Surface software. In-Reply-To: <20070306150050.M18884@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855703C08AA0@cpexchange.olf.com> Hi, Unfortunately, my Meiko tapes are all in London. One of these days, I'll go and get them either shipped or travel there and get the boxes. I'll see if I can muster it up somewhere else in the meantime. Can you send some pics? Thanks, Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Back Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:11 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Meiko Computing Surface software. Hello, I have two Meiko Computing Surface nodes I'm hoping to soon finally get round to restoring. Removal of dust, cobwebs and rust is one thing, but I sadly don't have any software for them, e.g. 'MeikOS', CS Tools, link adapter drivers etc. One is a 1st generation CS with boards filled with transputers, a host/monitor board, RAM card and gfx card. Also have a PC ISA link adapter and a connecting cable made from something akin to miniature flat twinax (well the links did run at 10Mb/s). The 2nd node is a later CS/i860 (aka Concerto), which again has transputers but also as the name suggests i860 CPUs, and a module which is a Sparc 1+ front end processor. Sadly the HDD had died and so I couldn't recover the SunOS 4 install along with the kernel bits for the link adapters and any other platform software. Pretty sure the NVRAM has had it too but that is the least of my worries... If anyone could help locating any Meiko software else just point me in the right direction it would be very much appreciated. Regards, Andrew ---------------- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 6 09:24:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:24:49 -0000 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000601c74a02$d09deff0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Al wrote... > I know Jay would like it to distribute the transfer load across the > mirrors, too. I've been working on that. The code I was using seems to have some issues so I started looking for a different way. I've also been playing with RSS and will have something along those lines at some point. Jay From ygehrich at yahoo.com Tue Mar 6 09:40:57 2007 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:40:57 -0500 Subject: old CBM Calculators In-Reply-To: <005c01c76000$be0cb9c0$3504010a@uatempname> References: <005c01c76000$be0cb9c0$3504010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070306103939.0445aa78@yahoo.com> Does anyone know of a place to find old CBM Calculators or a place on the web to get info on them? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 6 09:54:23 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:54:23 -0800 Subject: Data I/O IX In-Reply-To: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi There is a Data I/O IX on ebay. It doesn't look like it would take a Uni-pack. Does anyone know what PROM/EPROM types this machine will program? Is it able to do 1702A's ? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 6 10:10:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:10:23 -0600 Subject: Meiko Computing Surface software. In-Reply-To: <20070306150050.M18884@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070306150050.M18884@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45ED926F.8060404@yahoo.co.uk> Andrew Back wrote: > One is a 1st generation CS with boards filled with transputers, a > host/monitor board, RAM card and gfx card. Also have a PC ISA link > adapter and a connecting cable made from something akin to miniature > flat twinax (well the links did run at 10Mb/s) Lucky you :) I have good memories of Kent University's Meiko - as I recall it was Peter Welch who taught me. The website at http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/phw suggests he's still there (and hasn't updated his photo since my time there :-) so it might be worth giving him a prod to see if they have anything on backup still. By all accounts their Meiko was unceremoniously thrown out at end of life though and it was rescued by some students who donated it to the Science Museum - so I'm not that hopeful over the fate of the software and documentation :-( > The 2nd node is a later CS/i860 (aka Concerto), which again has > transputers but also as the name suggests i860 CPUs nice! > Sadly the HDD had died Have you tried a board swap from an identical good drive in case the fault's with the logic rather than heads / spindle / surfaces? Knowing Sun it's a fairly common drive... I'm hoping to go and look at a CS1 in a few weeks and pick it up if it turns out to be in reasonable-enough shape. This one has a Microvax as the host (I'm not sure how common that is - all the installations I've heard about have been either Sun or PC). cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 6 10:20:51 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:20:51 -0800 Subject: Data I/O IX Message-ID: <45ED94E3.6050905@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone know what PROM/EPROM types this machine will > program? Is it able to do 1702A's ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190088001102 It is totally dependent upon the programming module plugged in. Prior to the Unipak, every prom family had its own adapter socket adapter 715-1318-1 doesn't jump out at me as a known type you can try contacting the seller to see if there is an adapter table in the manual, though it has been my experience that sellers will rarely respond to such questions. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 6 10:23:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:23:52 -0800 Subject: place your bets In-Reply-To: <20070306085647.41340@gmx.net> References: <20070306085647.41340@gmx.net> Message-ID: <45ED2518.26760.284748C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Mar 2007 at 9:56, Arno Kletzander wrote: > That condition (called "Zinkpest" in German) is also well known (and > loathed!) for attacking the rotor disks in some types of old pinwheel > calculating machines, especially those made in GDR and Russia. I was wondering if there was a name for this. There is a completely unrelated phenomenon known as "Zinnpest" which affects tin. At low temperatures, pure white tin undergoes an allotropic self-catalyzing change to a gray powdery form. Objects made of tin simply disintegrate. Apparently, this was first noted in organ pipes of northern Germany. The Scott Antarctic expedition was thought to have suffered from this when their caches containing tin-soldered cans of kerosene mysteriously leaked their contents away. Cheers, Chuck From paul at frixxon.co.uk Tue Mar 6 10:34:36 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:34:36 +0000 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <000601c74a02$d09deff0$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> <000601c74a02$d09deff0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45ED981C.2000502@frixxon.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Al wrote... >> I know Jay would like it to distribute the transfer load across the >> mirrors, too. > > I've been working on that. The code I was using seems to have some > issues so I started looking for a different way. Do we have any transfer statistics for the mirrors at the moment? bitsavers.vt100.net currently serves 300 GiB per month on average. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 6 10:29:40 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:29:40 -0500 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies Message-ID: <01C75FE2.F454E340@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:34:19 -0800 From: "dwight elvey" Subject: RE: Multiplexing Nixies >>From: Jules Richardson >> >>Does anyone know if multiplexing Nixies will significantly reduce their >>lifespan? Or does it in fact help versus "permanently on as needed"? >> ---snip--- >Hi >It is not a good idea to multiplex Nixies. --------------------- Well, good idea or not it was certainly common practice. Some info at: http://wps.com/archives/Burroughs/index.html (N101 & N102) mike From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 10:44:03 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:44:03 -0800 Subject: Need info on Roytron paper tape reader/punch In-Reply-To: <20070305200226.DA7A9197BE@smtp.excite.com> References: <20070305200226.DA7A9197BE@smtp.excite.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703060844u66829ec8jc92453ac8243b3b7@mail.gmail.com> On 3/5/07, Jeff Perez wrote: > Try here http://bitsavers.vt100.net/roytron/ > Have you found any other docs? I have a Roytron punch / reader with a punch mechanism that looks similar to the mechanisms in those docs. It's integrated into a table top unit with a motor and belt drive to the punch mechanism, together with a separate reader and a card cage for the drive electronics, and a fan feed papertape tray in the bottom for the punch. The electronics don't appear to be too complicated, but more so than the electronics in the docs pointed to above. I'll have to check again but I don't think I saw a model number on the complete punch / reader unit. I think the part number on the punch mechanism might have been 500F. > Tell me if you want to sell one it does not need to be working > Are you looking for a complete unit or just the punch mechanism? -Glen From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 11:02:11 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:02:11 -0600 Subject: DEC VT11 display processor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <624966d60703060902n18c25b9bu3cd45ee458b9392f@mail.gmail.com> Hi Christian, I might be able to help you with this. Is there a # and a goiod time I could call you? Paul Anderson On 3/6/07, Christian Corti wrote: > > While repairing our VT11 that hangs the Unibus as soon as you point the > light pen to the high frequency fluorescent room illumination (which makes > playing lunar lander a pain) I've discovered that the schematics of the > M7014 board (bus control & bootstrap) as found in the GT40 engineering > drawings (from bitsavers) do not correspond to our board (a M7014-YA). > The document number for the M7014 board is D-CS-M7014-0-1. > Does anyone have the document numbered D-CS-M7014-YA-1 in electronic form > (or even the complete VT11 engineering drawings)? > > Christian > From Larry.Metzler at associatedbank.com Tue Mar 6 11:05:31 2007 From: Larry.Metzler at associatedbank.com (Metzler, Larry) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:05:31 -0600 Subject: Need info on Roytron paper tape reader/punch In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703060844u66829ec8jc92453ac8243b3b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2E0669861D392744B7EF10274EAFA58F043CDD@GBSC-K3E02GB.bankcorp.com> Would any know value of old IBM unit record equipment ??? IBM 513 reproducing punch--pre 1945 IBM 405 accounting machine--pre 1940 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need info on Roytron paper tape reader/punch On 3/5/07, Jeff Perez wrote: > Try here http://bitsavers.vt100.net/roytron/ > Have you found any other docs? I have a Roytron punch / reader with a punch mechanism that looks similar to the mechanisms in those docs. It's integrated into a table top unit with a motor and belt drive to the punch mechanism, together with a separate reader and a card cage for the drive electronics, and a fan feed papertape tray in the bottom for the punch. The electronics don't appear to be too complicated, but more so than the electronics in the docs pointed to above. I'll have to check again but I don't think I saw a model number on the complete punch / reader unit. I think the part number on the punch mechanism might have been 500F. > Tell me if you want to sell one it does not need to be working > Are you looking for a complete unit or just the punch mechanism? -Glen *************************** NOTICE *************************** This e-mail and attachment(s) may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copy of this message is strictly prohibited. If received in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete/destroy the message and any copies thereof. Although Associated Banc-Corp and/or its affiliates (collectively "Associated") attempt to prevent the passage of viruses via e-mail and attachments thereto, Associated does not guarantee that either are virus-free, and accepts no liability for any damage sustained as a result of any such viruses. Any federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used or referred to in the promoting, marketing, or recommending of any entity, investment plan or agreement, nor is such advice intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by a taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Tax Code. From rickb at bensene.com Tue Mar 6 11:32:57 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:32:57 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: References: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Dwight wrote: > It is not a good idea to multiplex Nixies. They don't always > strike exactly when the voltage is applied. This means you > can't go too fast. Also, if the current is too high ( not > just the average ), it causes the gas to heat up too much and > it changes the ionization. > This causes a more distructive violet glow that will > eventually cause the bulb to get contaminated by blasting the > electrodes. > Unlike LED's, running them at too low a current doesn't just > make them glow less brightly, it tends to make them glow only > over part of the electrode. > Most applications use one driver per Nixie. Multiplexing Nixies was extremely common in all but the earliest electronic calculators. The early machines (Sharp Compet 10, 15, 20, 21, 30[and Facit/Addo equivalents]; early Sumlock/ANITA machines; the Wang LOCI 1/2; and a few others) used discrete drivers per Nixie tube, but the cost of such circuitry (11 transistors per tube [digits plus decimal point], along with diode arrays to do BCD to decimal conversion for each tube) made the machines quite expensive with very high component counts. Multiplexing had two major advantages. The first was that the driver circuitry was MUCH less expensive. One BCD to decimal converter, 11 transistors for driving the anodes (digit 0-9 & decimal point), and as many transistors as there are tubes for switching the cathodes. Along with the transistors, there was usually a series of RC networks, or sometime small-signal transformers (Canon liked transformers) involved in the cathode switching. The other major benefit of multiplexing was that the architecture of most electronic calculators is bit-serial. This was done because the speed of parallel math is not necessary on a simple calculator, and that the ALU circuitry was much less complex. Also, most of the machines had a memory that was bit serial, such as shift registers or magnetostrictive delay lines (and in at least two known cases, magnetic drums). Those that had magnetic core memory, or stored charge capacitive memory were generally addressed in a bit-serial fashion. The bit serial nature of the logic made multiplexing a whole lot easier, because the bits are already circulating around in the machine, and this architecture fit very will with multiplexing. Typically, there would be a four-bit shift register that would accumulate a BCD digit, and this register would be fed to the BCD-to-Decimal converter, which would feed the anode drivers. A separate shift register or counter would step through the number of digits there are in the display, which would drive the cathode drivers. Everything was synchronized by phases of the master clock circuitry. The result was a much simpler design in terms of parts count (which translated directly to lower cost and higher profits), and also smaller, lighter, and more reliable machines. In terms of failure rates, I have yet (after many years of collecting) to find a multiplexed Nixie calculator in which a Nixie tube has failed. It's relatively common to find failed anode or cathode driver transistor failures, which result in either a single Nixie that refuses to light, or a single numeric digit (or decimal point) won't display on any of the tubes. In the case of a cathode driver failing, many might think the tube is bad. In every single case I've had, replacing the driver transistor(s) brings the tube back to life. Remember, calculators were typically turned on in the morning, ran all day long, and shut off when people went home for the day. So, the number of runtime hours on the tubes by the time I've gotten my hands on a machine is very long. I do believe that Nixies made for direct drive have some different characteristics than those made for multiplexed drive. I do not know specifically, but recall reading somewhere that the gas mixture in Nixies made for multiplexing is somewhat different, to allow for faster switch-on/off times. I seem to recall that there was a trace amount of mercury added to the Neon gas mixture. I also do know that the switching times for mux'd Nixies were rather strict. Violate the duty cycle and rise/fall times and current levels, and the tubes would indeed suffer a reduced lifetime. Calculator designers took all of this into account, and designed the drive circuitry very carefully to assure maximum life for the Nixie tubes. The common problem with old Nixie tubes (multiplexed or not) is long warm-up time. Some of the old machines in the museum take about 30 seconds to a minute before all of the tubes light up. This is generally caused by slight contamination of the gas in the tube by the anodes slowly eroding, or by molecular-level leakage through the glass envelope over very long periods of time, reducing the gas concentration in the tube. But, once the tube "warms up", it runs fine. This is part of the reason why I power up each calculator in the museum at least once a month and run it for at least a half hour, partly to exercise the tubes, and also to keep the power supply filter capacitors from malforming. I generally do a few machines per day, and over the course of a month, I've pretty much run through all of them. I put a priority on the Nixie and CRT display machines, as they are the most likely candidates for problems, then the VF tube calculators, followed by LED's, then the calculators (like the early Canon 161 and 130S) with incandescent displays, and lastly, the early LCD calculators. So, in summary, Nixies multiplex, and do so just fine. However, some Nixies aren't designed for it, and multiplexing these tubes may shorten their liftimes. But, the tubes that are designed for multiplexing can have extraordinarily long lifetimes (some of the Nixies tubes in machines in the museum are nearing 40 years old, and still work beautifully). Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Mar 6 12:00:26 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:00:26 -0500 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta Message-ID: Richard wrote: > "Some day in the future" features > - extract first page of the PDF as an image and link with a > thumbnail I have done things like this in the past and it is very straightforward with e.g. PDF::API2 (one of my favorite Perl modules) or even just ghostscript. Somebody else mentioned databases... properly done this could be quite handy. But the existing directory hierarchy (multi-level) really is more amenable to the actual needs than any database system (which unfortunately tend to "flatten" the structure). Flattening the structure is useful for some things, but only if you then "blow it back up" into a hierarchy. For example I could imagine a directory of 3rd-party-DEC-compatible stuff that softlinks back into the manufacturer's directories. This is NOT a flat structure... "A maze of twisty passages all alike" is a better analogy! Tim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 6 13:06:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:06:20 -0600 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45EDBBAC.6050905@yahoo.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Somebody else mentioned databases... properly done this could be quite > handy. But the existing directory hierarchy (multi-level) really is more > amenable to the actual needs than any database system (which > unfortunately tend to "flatten" the structure). Oh, I'd only forseen the use of a database as a repository for metadata: description, name of publisher, source of original document and other useful things - files still exist, at least as far as the user's concerned[1], in the hierarchy as they are now. [1] technically this doesn't *have* to be the case of course providing there's always some programatical intermediate layer between the user and the data on disk. > Flattening the structure is useful for some things, but only if you > then "blow it back up" into a hierarchy. For example I could imagine a > directory of 3rd-party-DEC-compatible stuff that softlinks back into the > manufacturer's directories. This is NOT a flat structure... "A maze of > twisty passages all alike" is a better analogy! Urgh :-) I suspect the main problem with any of this is that bitsavers need mirror sites - and any introduction of a database on the primary site means that the mirror sites need to use the same database and the db contents need to be kept in sync :( cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 6 13:18:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:18:23 -0600 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45EDBE7F.3030005@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > I suppose (or is it like that already?) bitsavers needs some form of > database > > This is difficult to do the way that it is hosted and mirrored > currently. Right > now, it is just a directory heirarchy with a couple of files I have to > manually > edit and upload every time I add something (IndexByDate and Whatsnew in > the pdf > directory) There are no equivalent files in the 'bits' directory. Yes, I was originally thinking that in the current situation some PHP code could do the work of the webserver's directory listing code and incorporate the description field from Whatsnew.txt when people view the site via HTTP. However, looking at the file it's 278KB in size and over 4000 lines - I suspect the burden of searching that file to match file paths to descriptions might be a little too great. Some sort of background process to run a couple of times a day and update per-directory equivalents of Whatsnew.txt could work I suppose; any "dir listing" code will then only need to operate on a small file. Such an approach "feels" messy though, but might be the only option without a full db. Either that or status quo is maintained and users have to explicitly look at Whatsnew.txt. to find the descriptions for the directory listings that they're looking at. cheers Jules From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Mar 6 13:35:13 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:35:13 -0500 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <45EDBE7F.3030005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070306142937.012bc7f8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >Yes, I was originally thinking that in the current situation some PHP code >could do the work of the webserver's directory listing code and >incorporate the description field from Whatsnew.txt when people view the >site via HTTP. However, looking at the file it's 278KB in size and over >4000 lines - I suspect the burden of searching that file to match file >paths to descriptions might be a little too great. If it's a file that's searched often, but updated rarely (say, once/dayish) a CDB database might be just the ticket... it's a single-hit flat-file lookup system. I *think* there's PHP modules for it; I know there's Perl & Python modules for it. So for something that's searched often, but updated kinda rarely, they don't add a lot of load to the system and might be "just the ticket." HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From bob at jfcl.com Tue Mar 6 13:34:36 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:34:36 -0800 Subject: Replacement bulbs for RL0x and RA8x drives? In-Reply-To: <008d01c75f62$00b19420$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <000001c76026$79f101d0$1401010a@Rhyme> > This should be what you're looking for: > > http://www.atlantalightbulbs.com/ecart/nw012104/GE73UNIT39218.htm Thanks, guys - I just ordered a couple of boxes of #73 and #86 bulbs from Atlanta. Man - those #86 bulbs aren't cheap, are they ?! Bob From spc at conman.org Tue Mar 6 14:05:38 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:05:38 -0500 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <45EDBE7F.3030005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> <45EDBE7F.3030005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070306200538.GA24256@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > Al Kossow wrote: > > > I suppose (or is it like that already?) bitsavers needs some form of database > > > >This is difficult to do the way that it is hosted and mirrored currently. Right > >now, it is just a directory heirarchy with a couple of files I have to manually > >edit and upload every time I add something (IndexByDate and Whatsnew in the pdf > >directory) There are no equivalent files in the 'bits' directory. > > Yes, I was originally thinking that in the current situation some PHP code > could do the work of the webserver's directory listing code and incorporate > the description field from Whatsnew.txt when people view the site via HTTP. > However, looking at the file it's 278KB in size and over 4000 lines - I > suspect the burden of searching that file to match file paths to > descriptions might be a little too great. > > Some sort of background process to run a couple of times a day and update > per-directory equivalents of Whatsnew.txt could work I suppose; any "dir > listing" code will then only need to operate on a small file. Such an > approach "feels" messy though, but might be the only option without a full > db. Apache has the ability to associate descriptions to filenames for the directory indexes it can produce (if you don't have an index.html file, and you allow directory listings to be produced). Look up the "AddDescription" directive, and such directives can be added to a .htaccess file in each directory. -spc (And why does it feel messy?) From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Mar 6 13:49:40 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:49:40 -0500 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta Message-ID: Jules wrote: > I suspect the main problem with any of this is that > bitsavers need mirror sites - and any introduction > of a database on the primary site means that the > mirror sites need to use the same database and > the db contents need to be kept > in sync :( Don't make it any more complicated than it has to be - a .CSV file would be perfect and anyone could use it with "grep" or just the find function in their browser or do cgi-bin stuff with Perl on it. Tim. From andy at smokebelch.org Tue Mar 6 14:11:53 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:11:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Meiko Computing Surface software. In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855703C08AA0@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855703C08AA0@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <20070306201026.U32366@plum.flirble.org> Hi Ram, On Tue, 6 Mar 2007, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Hi, > > Unfortunately, my Meiko tapes are all in London. One of these days, > I'll go and get them either shipped or travel there and get the boxes. > I'll see if I can muster it up somewhere else in the meantime. Can you > send some pics? Would it be expensive for you to have them shipped over? Maybe I could help with this if I can't get the software anywhere else. The machines are in storage at the moment but will hopefully get a chance to take some photos this weekend, otherwise it will be a few weeks time. Cheers, Andrew From andy at smokebelch.org Tue Mar 6 14:18:47 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:18:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Meiko Computing Surface software. In-Reply-To: <45ED926F.8060404@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20070306150050.M18884@plum.flirble.org> <45ED926F.8060404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070306201218.U32366@plum.flirble.org> Hi Jules, On Tue, 6 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > The website at http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/phw suggests he's still > there (and hasn't updated his photo since my time there :-) so it might be > worth giving him a prod to see if they have anything on backup still. Thanks, I'll drop him an e-mail. > Have you tried a board swap from an identical good drive in case the fault's > with the logic rather than heads / spindle / surfaces? Knowing Sun it's a > fairly common drive... I did wonder about this but then worried about bad block maps and the likes. I may still have the drive somewhere back at my folks (along with an equally dormant Esprit Supernode II). > I'm hoping to go and look at a CS1 in a few weeks and pick it up if it turns > out to be in reasonable-enough shape. This one has a Microvax as the host > (I'm not sure how common that is - all the installations I've heard about > have been either Sun or PC). Pretty sure I've heard of Inmos uVAX hosts, but not Meiko. Although I guess there is no reason why an Inmos host couldn't be cabled up to boot a CS1 - the links must be the same. I'd be interested in hearing how it turns out and happy to help if I can with info (have some Meiko docs). Also possibly interested in spares if it turns out to be beyond hope. Cheers, Andrew From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 6 14:20:40 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:20:40 -0600 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> <45EDBE7F.3030005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <014401c7602c$eb706e30$6600a8c0@BILLING> Jules wrote... > an approach > "feels" messy though, but might be the only option without a full db. Well, mySQL is already on the box..... Jay From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 6 14:22:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:22:20 -0700 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:06:20 -0600. <45EDBBAC.6050905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <45EDBBAC.6050905 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Oh, I'd only forseen the use of a database as a repository for metadata: > description, name of publisher, source of original document and other useful > things - files still exist, at least as far as the user's concerned[1], in th e > hierarchy as they are now. Contribute that information to manx -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 6 15:11:57 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:11:57 -0600 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <20070306200538.GA24256@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> <45EDBE7F.3030005@yahoo.co.uk> <20070306200538.GA24256@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <45EDD91D.6020509@yahoo.co.uk> Sean Conner wrote: >> Some sort of background process to run a couple of times a day and update >> per-directory equivalents of Whatsnew.txt could work I suppose; any "dir >> listing" code will then only need to operate on a small file. Such an >> approach "feels" messy though, but might be the only option without a full >> db. > > Apache has the ability to associate descriptions to filenames for the > directory indexes it can produce (if you don't have an index.html file, and > you allow directory listings to be produced). Look up the "AddDescription" > directive, and such directives can be added to a .htaccess file in each > directory. Is it customisable as to where and how it pulls the description information of of a file for inclusion, though? > -spc (And why does it feel messy?) Only because the same information's essentially being maintained in two places... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 6 15:14:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:14:09 -0600 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <014401c7602c$eb706e30$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> <45EDBE7F.3030005@yahoo.co.uk> <014401c7602c$eb706e30$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45EDD9A1.4090708@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Jules wrote... >> an approach "feels" messy though, but might be the only option without >> a full db. > > Well, mySQL is already on the box..... Hmmm... if it's also available at all of the mirror sites then maybe that's an option. I guess the trick is to not make any more work for Al, though - he's probably busy enough as it is :-) In other words, the "publishing" interface would perhaps have to stay as it is now, but some running process would migrate the info that he puts into Whatsnew.txt into the db. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 6 15:21:26 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:21:26 -0800 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta Message-ID: <45EDDB56.5000108@bitsavers.org> > Personally I find I sometimes get lost in the archive (via the web interface) > though as a filename often doesn't obviously correspond to a document title. The file naming has evolved over the 7+ years. In general, anything new is being added with <date> This started on a system with 32 character file names, so <title> was ruthlessly truncated, and as you noticed, <title> wasn't always the document title. The worst problem with the current arrangement is file renaming and rearrangement of the heirarchy. I'm not sure if the mirrors reflect these rearrangements. In general though, it seems to serve it's purpose, so I'm not inclined to spend a lot of time adding database functionality to it. I've been working on a MUCH harder problem on how to organize the CHM digital holdings, of which the bitsavers archive is a fairly tiny part. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 6 15:27:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:27:45 -0800 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <45EDD91D.6020509@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org>, <20070306200538.GA24256@linus.groomlake.area51>, <45EDD91D.6020509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45ED6C51.24221.295D7E6D@cclist.sydex.com> I note small problem in the bitsavers archive that may deserve some thought. Documentation for the IBM Selectric I/O writer is located in the CDC directory. Why? Because the documentation originated at CDI, not IBM, even if it describes an IBM product. Is there a way to symbolically link the CDI documents into the IBM directory? Are there any other instances of this sort of thing? Not particularly germane to the RSS feed thing, but something I've wondered about. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 6 15:44:03 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:44:03 -0600 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <45EDDB56.5000108@bitsavers.org> References: <45EDDB56.5000108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45EDE0A3.10605@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > Personally I find I sometimes get lost in the archive (via the web > interface) > > though as a filename often doesn't obviously correspond to a document > title. > > The file naming has evolved over the 7+ years. In general, anything new > is being > added with <manual part number> <title> <date> > > This started on a system with 32 character file names, so <title> was > ruthlessly > truncated, and as you noticed, <title> wasn't always the document title. It's not so much of an inconvenience on a good connection - but it probably doesn't help with bandwidth at the server if people are having to download files just to see what they are :( > The worst problem with the current arrangement is file renaming and > rearrangement of the heirarchy. I suppose that's one area where a database could potentially help, as the database could be the definitive source as far as mirrors are concerned when it comes to mirroring content. > In general though, it seems to serve it's purpose, so I'm not inclined > to spend a lot of time adding database functionality to it. Sure, I saw it more as one of those projects (like additions to the classiccmp website) that people with the time and skills could maybe take on, rather than it being something that you'd have to do yourself. I bet we've got a few dba's, PHP gurus etc. etc. lurking on the list... > I've been working on a MUCH harder problem on how to organize the CHM > digital holdings, of which the bitsavers archive is a fairly tiny part. heh heh, not an easy task at all - presumably made all the more difficult if you've already got a significant amount of data in digital form which needs to be migrated to a new system. One of those situations where it'd be nice to just know what the "right" solution was up-front I suppose and then just stick with it... From spc at conman.org Tue Mar 6 15:48:50 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:48:50 -0500 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <45EDD91D.6020509@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> <45EDBE7F.3030005@yahoo.co.uk> <20070306200538.GA24256@linus.groomlake.area51> <45EDD91D.6020509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070306214850.GF24256@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > Sean Conner wrote: > >>Some sort of background process to run a couple of times a day and update > >>per-directory equivalents of Whatsnew.txt could work I suppose; any "dir > >>listing" code will then only need to operate on a small file. Such an > >>approach "feels" messy though, but might be the only option without a > >>full db. > > > > Apache has the ability to associate descriptions to filenames for the > >directory indexes it can produce (if you don't have an index.html file, and > >you allow directory listings to be produced). Look up the "AddDescription" > >directive, and such directives can be added to a .htaccess file in each > >directory. > > Is it customisable as to where and how it pulls the description information > of of a file for inclusion, though? Not really. It looks like: AddDescription "A picture of a PDP-11" pdp11.jpg AddDescription "Theory of Operations Guide for a PDP-11" php11.pdf But it saves having to flip back and forth between the listing file and the file listing ... um ... if that makes any sense. -spc (Used this for one if his sites ... ) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Mar 6 06:12:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:12:04 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help Message-ID: <0JEH007YODTE0B03@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:22:39 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 4 Mar 2007 at 18:00, Allison wrote: > >> Wrong. The RX50 format and RX33 formats are very differnt... > >Ah. So an easy accommodation is to declare a 360RPM 1.2MB drive as a >1.44MB 3.5". That keeps the 250Kbps data rate for low density while >the drive keeps spinning happily at 360 RPM. There's still the issue >of the missing IAM gap, but some National chips (8473 IIRC) seem to >be a bit more tolerant. > >Cheers, >Chuck DEC did do 3.5" formats those wer RX25(720k) and RX26(1.44m) and they did appear on later uVAX3100s. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Mar 6 07:32:08 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:32:08 -0500 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help Message-ID: <0JEH00FO8HIT4NP1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:19:46 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >At sometime today, Allison wrote: > >> It's not 300 data rate it's 250! Thats out of context. When I say 250 data rate I refer to the nominal speed drive it was intended for (300 RPM) not the 1.2mb aberation. I helps to know what the source media is for and in the case of DEC the formats are limited in number used are easy to get data about and recognize. Of course the file organization on that media can be far more varied in the DEC cases A partial list includes (on floppy): POS, RSX-11, DOS, RT-11, RSTS, Files-11, ultirx-11 VMS, VMS saveset, ultrix/VAX, formats used for MIPS based systems, OS8/78/278 DECmate WPS systems. VT180 Robin (CP/M on RX180) I likely missed something. However, the media if floppy based is only RX01/2 (8"), RX50, RX33, and late in the game RX25(3.5" 720k) and (RX26 3.5" 1.44m). I understand reading a DD 5.25" disk on a 360rpm fixed speed 1.2mb drive will give 300 as data rate. I tend to treat and sequester all 1.2/1.6mb 5.25 disks away from all other rates as they are usually PC application with an exception outside the PC application space (RX33 for example). So the PC I have for reading disks is a older 486/66 with three drives on two controllers. The drives are standard 3.5" that does both 720 and 1.44m, 360k (48tpi FD55BV), FD55F for 96tpi DD (formats like RX50). I do not bother with PC 1.2MB format and the only place it appears here is DEC RX33 disks that my PDP11[Qbus 11/73 with an RQDX3/RX33) handles as native. Even that PDP-11 is an unusual nonDEC configuration as it has RX02, RL02, RX50/33 and RD52(2 of them) in a rack mount format. I have Imagedisk, Fcopy, and teledisk and it runs dos/win95 for networking. this makes for a predictable PC based system that is well behaved reading formats like RX50. It was easier to put an old 486/66 minioard in a small tower with all the disks as I had it and the ISA floppy controllers, NIC and all needed. It has a small 420mb disk for local storage and programs as that all that is needed sice with networking I can mount the selected drive and copy from there usless it's an nonPC format. For those times when it's not PC based there is a NS* crate with NS* controller for hardsector two of my intelligent controllers for 8"/5.25"/3.5" formats that occur in the CP/M and NS*dos worlds. >Well, let's see what the numbers say. > >360 RPM is 6 revolutions per second or 0.167 second/revolution >300 RPM is 5 revolutions/sec or 0.200 seconds/rev. > >Thus, the raw capacity of a 300 RPM drive at 250Kbps is 50,000 bits >or 6250 bytes. The raw capacity of a 360 RPM drive at 250kpbs is >41667 bits or 5208 bytes. > >On the RX50, since there are 10 sectors of 5120 bytes, we have > >6250-5120 = 1130 bytes for gaps and ID marks, CRCs, etc. on a 300 RPM >drive. On a 360 RPM drive, one has 5208-5120 = 88 bytes for all that >overhead. Not considering gaps yet: > >There are 10 bytes for a IDAM: A1 A1 A1 FE cc hh rr nn cr cr, where >cc is the cylinder number, hh is the head number, rr is the sector >number, nn is the sector length code and cr cr is the CRC for the >IDAM. To that, add the data preamble of 4 bytes A1 A1 A1 FB and a 2 >byte CRC and you have (without gaps) 15 bytes per sector or 150 bytes >for a 10-sector track--and we're out of space already at 360 RPM >before we can add the barest of gaps (e.g. 12 bytes of 00 preamble >for the IDAM, 12 bytes of 00 preamble before the DAM... > >You just can't do it at 250Kpbs and 360 RPM. Heck, 10x512 is a >fairly tight fit at 300 RPM. > >Cheers, >Chuck I agree! The trouble maker is the interrecord gaps when added to the data fields and other "position" fields like IDAM space becomes very tight. DEC solved this partially by truncating the end of track gap and the Index gaps making it harder to read with a FDC that was designed to expect them. Allison From kkafka at earthlink.net Tue Mar 6 11:27:34 2007 From: kkafka at earthlink.net (Kris Kafka) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:27:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Northstar Advantage up for trade Message-ID: <24709796.1173202054452.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just saw your message and am interested in the system, if it is still available. Thanks Kris Kafka From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 6 15:48:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 21:48:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC VT11 display processor In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703061536120.21122@linuxserv.home> from "Christian Corti" at Mar 6, 7 03:49:33 pm Message-ID: <m1HOhWX-000J11C@p850ug1> > > While repairing our VT11 that hangs the Unibus as soon as you point the > light pen to the high frequency fluorescent room illumination (which makes > playing lunar lander a pain) I've discovered that the schematics of the I'm trying to remember something about this, I was working on this device some 15 years ago... >From what I remember, when the ligth pen is triggered, it halts the VT11 'processor' (so the corrdinates in the X and Y latches are the position of the light pen) and then interrupts the PDP11. The PDP11 reads out the coordinates and restarts the VT11. A problem with the interrupt logic (which is much the same as the interrupt logic on any other Unibus device) could well cause the problem you're seeing. > M7014 board (bus control & bootstrap) as found in the GT40 engineering > drawings (from bitsavers) do not correspond to our board (a M7014-YA). How different is the interrupt circuit? If you trace back from the appropriate pins on the edge conenctors do you find the same sort of logic? -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 6 16:24:40 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:24:40 -0600 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <0JEH007YODTE0B03@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JEH007YODTE0B03@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <45EDEA28.2010600@mdrconsult.com> Allison wrote: > > DEC did do 3.5" formats those wer RX25(720k) and RX26(1.44m) and they did > appear on later uVAX3100s. I have a 3.5" drive in a VS3100 that I'm pretty sure is labeled RX23. I know it's at least 1.44MB; I've never tried 2.88MB. Doc From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Mar 6 16:30:10 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:30:10 +0000 Subject: bitsavers RSS beta In-Reply-To: <20070306214850.GF24256@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <45ED84C0.4020707@bitsavers.org> <45EDBE7F.3030005@yahoo.co.uk> <20070306200538.GA24256@linus.groomlake.area51> <45EDD91D.6020509@yahoo.co.uk> <20070306214850.GF24256@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703061430y5b6eed80oeb021ceddbb913a7@mail.gmail.com> On 06/03/07, Sean Conner <spc at conman.org> wrote: > > Is it customisable as to where and how it pulls the description information > > of of a file for inclusion, though? > > Not really. It looks like: > > AddDescription "A picture of a PDP-11" pdp11.jpg > AddDescription "Theory of Operations Guide for a PDP-11" php11.pdf > It strikes me that this is fairly straightforward to create however; a few lines of php to add it to an .htaccess in each folder when logging in a new file to that folder. And it should be each to ensure it gets echoed across the mirrors automatically, if it wouldn't already! Back on the RSS feed; I've done similar work in the past that reads directory structures to find new files, to build up a database. (images, in my case, automatically adding products to an oscommerce database when it finds a new one.) Again, it should be straightforward to have a periodic task that scans folders for changes (just a check on the last-modified time since last scan) grabs the description from the .htaccess file above, and appends to an RSS file and even the what's new file if you want. (I still believe that computers are there to save us work - you should only have to upload a file, give it a description, and everything else should propogates to wherever you need it automatically.) From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Mar 6 17:57:58 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:57:58 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies References: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk><BAY116-F3EF76D869768EB0156C76A37B0@phx.gbl> <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB460A6682@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> I think the multiplexing issue has been well addressed ( no pun intended ) so for those who would like to mux their nixies may I suggest checking into the following IC's for that purpose: 7441, 74141 and the Soviet KM1551 ( Das Vadanya ! ) . Best regards, Steven If anyone finds a cheap source for Nixies please post it ! Thanks... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 18:21:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:21:25 -0500 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <BAY116-F3EF76D869768EB0156C76A37B0@phx.gbl> <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB460A6682@mail.bensene.com> <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703061621r210b7ffcw807f97dd19c3a6be@mail.gmail.com> On 3/6/07, Steven Canning <cannings at earthlink.net> wrote: > I think the multiplexing issue has been well addressed ( no pun intended ) > so for those who would like to mux their nixies may I suggest checking into > the following IC's for that purpose: 7441, 74141 and the Soviet KM1551 ( Das > Vadanya ! ) . I knew about the 7441 and the 74141 (such things are well covered in Don Lancaster's "TTL Cookbook"). I did _not_ know what the Russian part number is. I'll have to see if I can scare up one or two of those. I was thinking of breaking my large strip of Nixies into a clock or three. -ethan From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Mar 6 18:49:26 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:49:26 -0600 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703061621r210b7ffcw807f97dd19c3a6be@mail.gmail.co m> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <BAY116-F3EF76D869768EB0156C76A37B0@phx.gbl> <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB460A6682@mail.bensene.com> <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost> At 07:21 PM 3/6/2007 -0500, you wrote: >On 3/6/07, Steven Canning <cannings at earthlink.net> wrote: >>I think the multiplexing issue has been well addressed ( no pun intended ) >>so for those who would like to mux their nixies may I suggest checking into >>the following IC's for that purpose: 7441, 74141 and the Soviet KM1551 ( Das >>Vadanya ! ) . > >I knew about the 7441 and the 74141 (such things are well covered in >Don Lancaster's "TTL Cookbook"). I did _not_ know what the Russian >part number is. I'll have to see if I can scare up one or two of >those. I was thinking of breaking my large strip of Nixies into a >clock or three. My great treasure is a box of Burroughs 7971 nixies. I have five, or maybe six of them. As you may know, these are "British Flag" displays that can do any number, letter, and some punctuation. They're 4.55 inches high, excluding the pins, and the characters are 2.5 inches high. They have 15 segments each making designing for them a challenge. What I want it a device I can build with a PIC or two that will display the time and maybe the temp, plus a scrolling alpha numeric message uploaded to it via a USB port. I see USB port boards for PIC use all over the place, but I'm fairly daunted by the prospect of designing a circuit flexible enough to drive 6x15 segment nixies. Maybe a character generator in addition to the main PIC?? The other thing I want is a WWV decoder so it sets itself. Yes, I know I could periodically set it over a USB port, but I want it to be self sufficient if no PC is handy. The only suggestions I've gotten so far are to cut up a cheapo atomic clock from a big-box store and salvage the 1 PPS output from it. That might help me keep it accurate, but won't help me set it automagically. Others have suggested a GPS eval board. Those are certainly cheap enough and some require no more than power and spit out NMEA strings the minute you power them up. But GPS won't work indoors and certainly not in the basement. Still looking, -Tom ----- 445. [Humor] I just got skylights put in my place. The people who live above me are furious. --Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 6 19:21:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:21:34 -0800 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <0JEH00FO8HIT4NP1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JEH00FO8HIT4NP1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <45EDA31E.13394.2A338B1C@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Mar 2007 at 8:32, Allison wrote: > Thats out of context. Well, there's been a lot of back-and-forth on this and things have been getting all misconstrued. Allow me to see if I can sort the situation out. I think we've all been trying to say the same thing. DEC RX50 = 80x1x10x512 = 800K on one side, consisting of 80 tracks with 10 512-byte sectors. Some versions of this format (or the RX33 corresponding format) leave off the IAM; others keep it in and squeeze the sectors together a bit more. In any case, on a Teac FD55F drive spinning at 300 RPM, the data rate is 250 Kbps and takes "360K/180K" type media (Yes, there exist(ed) media verified for 96 tpi; so-called "quad" density, but the cookie's the same). It does not take HD media, which has the wrong magnetic characteristics (coercivity). A Teac FD55GFR "1.2MB" drive jumpered to spin at 360K RPM will handle this format if the read/write clock is set for 300Kbps. This is just a matter of boosting the clock rate to match the faster spindle speed. The medium remains the same. Since some variants of this format leave off the IAM and the NEC 765- type controllers have a "blind" spot right after the index (varies according to vendor), the first sector on the track may be problematical when reading on a PC (using either the "720K" drive or the "1.2M" drives mentioned above). There are a couple of ways to accommodate this. 1) disable the INDEX/ signal from the drive; 2) slow the drive a bit to shove the first sector IDAM out of the FDC's "blind spot". Method (1) will not allow for formatting the drive,a s the 765 format operation waits for the index pulse (which will never come). Similarly, the READ TRACK operation will not work and a "Sector not found" error will cause the FDC to hang and the error to be interpreted as a "Not Ready" error. Have I summarized what's been said accurately? FWIW, the 10x512 format has been used by many systems. Some work just fine; others have the first sector problem described above. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 6 19:32:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:32:41 -0800 Subject: Copying DEC VAX set up disks rx50, help In-Reply-To: <45EDA31E.13394.2A338B1C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JEH00FO8HIT4NP1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <45EDA31E.13394.2A338B1C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45EDA5B9.17575.2A3DB811@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Mar 2007 at 17:21, Chuck Guzis wrote: > DEC RX50 = 80x1x10x512 = 800K on one side, consisting of 80 tracks > with 10 512-byte sectors. (blush) I should learn to multiply. 80x10x512 = 400K. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 19:44:05 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:44:05 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost> References: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <BAY116-F3EF76D869768EB0156C76A37B0@phx.gbl> <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB460A6682@mail.bensene.com> <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703061744k4b02971flac2b1b6fcdfcb27f@mail.gmail.com> On 3/6/07, Tom Peters <tpeters at mixcom.com> wrote: > The other thing I want is a WWV decoder so it sets itself. Did you see this one yet? http://www.amug.org/~jthomas/wwvb.html "Hacking a WWVB Radio Controlled Analog Clock movement. And build a WWVB Radio Controlled Nixie Clock!" "Overall clock error is less than 100ms from the WWVB clock transmission. This clock automatically adjusts for daylight savings time, and leap seconds." From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Mar 6 21:00:41 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 21:00:41 -0600 Subject: Data I/O model IX and 1702A proms Message-ID: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie> Dwight, The early Data I/O burners took individual sets of digital/analog cards to program each prom or family. For models 1 through 9, these were separate cards. In Models 17 and 19, the same two cards were combined in a Card Pak (carrier) which snapped into the chassis just like the UniPaks. For the Intel 1702A and equivalents, the card set was the 909/919-1183-1 (909 meant the two cards alone, 919 is the same two cards in a programming pak carrier. In either case, the card set consisted of a "digital" card, 701-1173, and an "analog" card, 701-1183-1. The cards were joined by cable 709-1608. In addition, a special socket adapter, p/n 1047, was used for these PROMs. I have the programming pak carrier minus the socket adapter and with a set of 1063 cards installed. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the target PROM is for this card set. I do have the calibrator and 1702 adapter card for it but without the programming cards it really isn't too useful. Scooter (riatla) is one of the eBay "good guys" and would probably be willing to take a peek inside the chassis to see what cards are included. More to the point, I figured by now that you or one of the other listers would have come up with a modern programmer for the 1702A - can't be too difficult other than the -48v programming requirements and I expect a few others would be interested in the project if someone designed one. Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release Date: 3/5/2007 9:41 AM From jim at photojim.ca Tue Mar 6 21:27:06 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 21:27:06 -0600 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> Hello, I just recently got approved as a participant on the list. I seem to have a growing collection of old and obsolete gear and I have a lot of fun with it. I have three VAXen (a VAXstation 4000/60 with 32 MB RAM running OpenBSD 4.0, a VAXstation 3100/unsure :) that's undeployed, and a VAX 4000/100 that's also undeployed), a couple of Suns (a Sparcstation 20 with dual Ross HyperSparc 180 MHz processors and 288 MB RAM running NetBSD 3.1, and an Ultra 1/170E with 640 MB RAM running Debian Stable), a Commodore 128, a few Commodore 64s, two Commodore VIC-20s, and some obsolete i386 stuff too. :) I'll mostly watch for awhile, I imagine, but I'm here, and I like the content so far. Jim MacKenzie Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada http://www.photojim.ca From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 21:45:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:45:08 -0500 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> References: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie> <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703061945x6b57a1e4j20c088ab03cea90@mail.gmail.com> On 3/6/07, Jim MacKenzie <jim at photojim.ca> wrote: > Hello, > > I just recently got approved as a participant on the list. Welcome, Jim. > I seem to have a growing collection of old and obsolete gear and I have a > lot of fun with it. I have three VAXen (a VAXstation 4000/60 with 32 MB RAM > running OpenBSD 4.0, a VAXstation 3100/unsure :) that's undeployed, and a > VAX 4000/100 that's also undeployed), a couple of Suns (a Sparcstation 20 > with dual Ross HyperSparc 180 MHz processors and 288 MB RAM running NetBSD > 3.1, and an Ultra 1/170E with 640 MB RAM running Debian Stable), a Commodore > 128, a few Commodore 64s, two Commodore VIC-20s, and some obsolete i386 > stuff too. :) Nice variety in your collection. VAXen, Suns, Commodores... sounds like stuff at my place, and the Suns don't sound all that obsolete to me. ;-) Cheers, -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 6 21:26:38 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:26:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <BAY116-F3EF76D869768EB0156C76A37B0@phx.gbl> <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB460A6682@mail.bensene.com> <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost> Message-ID: <200703070407.XAA21901@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > My great treasure is a box of Burroughs 7971 nixies. [...] > They have 15 segments each making designing for them a challenge. 15? I'd na?vely expect to see eight segments radiating from the centre, to the corners and the centres of the edges, and eight more segments around the edge, for a total of 16. Are two of them joined or something? > What I want it a device I can build with a PIC or two that will > display the time and maybe the temp, plus a scrolling alpha numeric > message uploaded to it via a USB port. Since you'll have to have a host on the other end of the USB line, maybe just upload a stream of 16-bit values (well, 15-bit values, but padding them to 16 bits each is probably easist) and let the host deal with character generation? > I see USB port boards for PIC use all over the place, but I'm fairly > daunted by the prospect of designing a circuit flexible enough to > drive 6x15 segment nixies. Maybe a character generator in addition > to the main PIC?? Why bother? Why not just generate 15-bit values for display, rather than generating 7-bit values that mean something to a human looking at an ASCII table and then contriving external hardware to convert them to the 15-bit values the hardware actually needs? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 6 22:25:36 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:25:36 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies References: <1750.82.71.40.17.1173145768.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <45EE3EC2.15BD612F@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: >It is not a good idea to multiplex Nixies. They don't always strike >exactly when the voltage is applied. This means you can't go too >fast. Mux'ed NIXIE calculators tend to have cycle times around the 400 to 1600 Hz range, or, given 12-16 digits, an ON time in the order of 40 to 200 uS with a duty cycle of 6 to 8%. One calc I have has a cycle over 3KHz and ON time down around 16 uS. Some characterisation of some nixie types, note the DRIVE column: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/displays.html From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 6 22:27:03 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:27:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> from Jim MacKenzie at "Mar 6, 7 09:27:06 pm" Message-ID: <200703070427.l274R4jn016088@floodgap.com> > a Commodore > 128, a few Commodore 64s, two Commodore VIC-20s, Nice to see another c.s.cbm face here. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- PowerPC inside! ------------------------------------------------------------ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 6 22:49:36 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:49:36 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EE3EC2.15BD612F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <BAY116-F15F2FF6509F8BABB6308CDA37A0@phx.gbl> >From: Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> >dwight elvey wrote: > >It is not a good idea to multiplex Nixies. They don't always strike > >exactly when the voltage is applied. This means you can't go too > >fast. > >Mux'ed NIXIE calculators tend to have cycle times around the 400 to 1600 Hz >range, or, given 12-16 digits, an ON time in the order of 40 to 200 uS with >a >duty cycle of 6 to 8%. >One calc I have has a cycle over 3KHz and ON time down around 16 uS. > > >Some characterisation of some nixie types, note the DRIVE column: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/displays.html Hi Looking at the other note on multiplexing Nixies, I was right and wrong. Nixies with higher pressure were designed to be strobed or multiplexed. Some were no designed for this. Those that were designed for it could be up to 20 or 5% duty cycle. The higher rates did have issues if done in the dark or behind too much light blocking bezzles. It is good to learn more. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 6 23:38:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:38:14 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <200703070407.XAA21901@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost>, <200703070407.XAA21901@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45EDDF46.17563.2B1E868E@cclist.sydex.com> Not nixies, but a question--are there any 7- or 15-segment EL displays commerically available? Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 7 00:11:42 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:11:42 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies References: <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk><BAY116-F3EF76D869768EB0156C76A37B0@phx.gbl> <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB460A6682@mail.bensene.com> <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <45EE579F.71A7B4DB@cs.ubc.ca> Steven Canning wrote: > > I think the multiplexing issue has been well addressed ( no pun intended ) > so for those who would like to mux their nixies may I suggest checking into > the following IC's for that purpose: 7441, 74141 and the Soviet KM1551 ( Das > Vadanya ! ) . ..just to add in, there are at least 3 more types, not that they're likely to be very available: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/nixieref/index.html From bob47lasher at charter.net Wed Mar 7 00:25:18 2007 From: bob47lasher at charter.net (Bob Lasher) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:25:18 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies Message-ID: <000801c76081$60a34930$a03ccd18@bobs> One poster mentioned the plasma drivers keeping the array below the threshold where they would glow. TI used to make a pair of drivers to control a plasma display. SN55500 and SN55501. Those were the military numbers, the commercial, I beleive, were 75500 and 75501. From jdebert at garlic.com Tue Mar 6 09:09:41 2007 From: jdebert at garlic.com (j debert) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:09:41 -0800 Subject: msc hpib disc on eBay In-Reply-To: <70257783-C37E-44A8-B76F-532203E1EA48@bitsavers.org> References: <70257783-C37E-44A8-B76F-532203E1EA48@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45ED8435.7080008@garlic.com> Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170084570047 > > similar to what I just posted the manual for. > > > This drive unit has the controller I mentioned elsewhere. I happen to have one of these boxes but it has a different brand on it. Nothing but the box, the rails for the controller and the wiring harness. The shugart disk fits perfectly, with even it's LED fitting perfectly behind the little red window in the front. The Seagates' LED's did not. I got the box and the controllers at the same time, IIRC, a few eons ago and got the only three or so controllers that were not mangled or cannibalised. -- jd FLASH! Intelligence of mankind decreasing. Details at ... uh, when the little hand is on the .... From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 01:25:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 02:25:02 -0500 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EDDF46.17563.2B1E868E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost>, <200703070407.XAA21901@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45EDDF46.17563.2B1E868E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <93FFF246-2413-41D9-A18B-5188A6356406@neurotica.com> On Mar 7, 2007, at 12:38 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not nixies, but a question--are there any 7- or 15-segment EL > displays commerically available? There's a 16-segment VFD, the IV-17, that shows up on eBay fairly frequently. They're pretty nice. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/multiseg-vfd.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/multiseg-vfd-powered.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 01:32:24 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 02:32:24 -0500 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <BAY116-F3EF76D869768EB0156C76A37B0@phx.gbl> <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB460A6682@mail.bensene.com> <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost> Message-ID: <80F1CF5A-B0A9-44E3-B0D6-0C0C3CEA055F@neurotica.com> On Mar 6, 2007, at 7:49 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > My great treasure is a box of Burroughs 7971 nixies. I have five, > or maybe six of them. As you may know, these are "British Flag" > displays that can do any number, letter, and some punctuation. > They're 4.55 inches high, excluding the pins, and the characters > are 2.5 inches high. Those are gorgeous tubes. > The other thing I want is a WWV decoder so it sets itself. Yes, I > know I could periodically set it over a USB port, but I want it to > be self sufficient if no PC is handy. The only suggestions I've > gotten so far are to cut up a cheapo atomic clock from a big-box > store and salvage the 1 PPS output from it. That might help me keep > it accurate, but won't help me set it automagically. You could obtain (or construct) a small, dumb WWVB receiver (like one of the ones in the cheapo clocks) and pipe it into this gentleman's design: http://www.geocities.com/hagtronics/wwvb.html He describes a (trivial) PIC-based design, and provides schematics and source code. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Mar 7 03:30:21 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:30:21 +0100 Subject: HP 400 series In-Reply-To: <006a01c75f69$49ae4130$0b01a8c0@game> References: <006a01c75f69$49ae4130$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <20070307103021.5157eea6@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:00:11 -0500 "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > Anybody know much about the HP 400 series of 68K Unix machines? > Is the OS for this system still available, NetBSD will give you a "modern" Unix style OS environement. NetBSD runs quite well on those machines. For the fun of it I instaled the "original" 4.4BSD Lite2 on my 433t. 4.4BSD was developed on this machinery. HP-UX is one "native" OS. I haven't seen much of m68k HP-UX, but most people don't like it that much. DomainOS is the other "native" OS. If you are interrested in somthing not-Unix you should get and install it. It is a very interresting system. As already mentioned you need a Domain keyboard + mouse for DomainOS / Aegis and a HIL keyboard + mouse for everything else. > also can you rig a VGA monitor to one? Yes, if it supports sync on green. You can also use a serial console. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 7 09:37:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:37:40 -0600 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> References: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie> <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> Message-ID: <45EEDC44.8050004@yahoo.co.uk> Jim MacKenzie wrote: > Hello, > > I just recently got approved as a participant on the list. Welcome, pull up a VAX cluster etc. :-) cheers Jules From jim at photojim.ca Wed Mar 7 09:48:53 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:48:53 -0600 Subject: New subscriber References: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie><003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> <45EEDC44.8050004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <011301c760d0$1b9a9c90$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> To: <General at hobart.photojim.prv>; "Discussion at hobart.photojim.prv:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:37 AM Subject: Re: New subscriber > Welcome, pull up a VAX cluster etc. :-) I've thought about it, but the two or three times I've tried installing OpenVMS, it's been quite an adventure... :) Jim From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Mar 7 10:06:45 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:06:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <45EEDC44.8050004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie> <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> <45EEDC44.8050004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070307155753.P31151@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim MacKenzie wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I just recently got approved as a participant on the list. > > Welcome, pull up a VAX cluster etc. :-) Speaking of which, and continuing my wantwantwant: does anyone have a fairly recent OpenVMS VAX (i.e. beyond 7.3-something, whatever version shipped TCP/IP with ssh v2, or better) ? In return I can assist with kits from a recent-ish CONDIST for OpenVMS VAX. Cheers, Andrew From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 7 11:10:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:10:12 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <93FFF246-2413-41D9-A18B-5188A6356406@neurotica.com> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <45EDDF46.17563.2B1E868E@cclist.sydex.com>, <93FFF246-2413-41D9-A18B-5188A6356406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2007 at 2:25, Dave McGuire wrote: > There's a 16-segment VFD, the IV-17, that shows up on eBay fairly > frequently. They're pretty nice. They're nice, but I was really wondering about EL--one of the "forgotten" technologies. I remember being fascinated with EL back in the 60's; it seemed full of promise. I recently picked up a pack of EL night-lights and found that they were pretty much the same thing as the one I had 40 years ago. Cheers, Chuck From Larry.Metzler at associatedbank.com Wed Mar 7 13:12:37 2007 From: Larry.Metzler at associatedbank.com (Metzler, Larry) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:12:37 -0600 Subject: Northstar Advantage up for trade In-Reply-To: <24709796.1173202054452.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2E0669861D392744B7EF10274EAFA58F043CE3@GBSC-K3E02GB.bankcorp.com> This is old punch card equipment. Weights a ton. You sure this is what you want??? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kris Kafka Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 11:28 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Northstar Advantage up for trade I just saw your message and am interested in the system, if it is still available. Thanks Kris Kafka *************************** NOTICE *************************** This e-mail and attachment(s) may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copy of this message is strictly prohibited. If received in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete/destroy the message and any copies thereof. Although Associated Banc-Corp and/or its affiliates (collectively "Associated") attempt to prevent the passage of viruses via e-mail and attachments thereto, Associated does not guarantee that either are virus-free, and accepts no liability for any damage sustained as a result of any such viruses. Any federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used or referred to in the promoting, marketing, or recommending of any entity, investment plan or agreement, nor is such advice intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by a taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Tax Code. From jrr at flippers.com Wed Mar 7 10:04:09 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:04:09 -0800 Subject: Data I/O model IX and 1702A proms In-Reply-To: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <p0624085ec214906dcefb@[192.168.2.17]> At 9:00 PM -0600 3/6/07, Jack Rubin wrote: >Dwight, > >The early Data I/O burners took individual sets of digital/analog cards >to program each prom or family. For models 1 through 9, these were >separate cards. In Models 17 and 19, the same two cards were combined in >a Card Pak (carrier) which snapped into the chassis just like the >UniPaks. >... > >More to the point, I figured by now that you or one of the other listers >would have come up with a modern programmer for the 1702A - can't be too >difficult other than the -48v programming requirements and I expect a >few others would be interested in the project if someone designed one. The good folks at Andromeda Research made two adapters for their Eprom programmer. One that simply reads the 1702 and the other also writes. They are not cheap though. The reader is $69US (I bought one and it works very well) whereas the writer is something like $695US! http://www.arlabs.com/adapters.htm#SPECIAL%20MEMORY%20DEVICE%20ADAPTERS It seems they cost for the burner reflects their concern for a product that is reliable - not a kit. Talk to them about it! Another adapter: http://www.testech-elect.com/elnec/additional_modules.htm There is a company in San Francisco that copies 1702s very inexpensively. http://www.demoboard.com/anchor.htm John :-#)# >Jack > >-- -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 7 14:01:53 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:01:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Northstar Advantage up for trade In-Reply-To: <2E0669861D392744B7EF10274EAFA58F043CE3@GBSC-K3E02GB.bankcorp.com> References: <2E0669861D392744B7EF10274EAFA58F043CE3@GBSC-K3E02GB.bankcorp.com> Message-ID: <20070307120035.X91043@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Metzler, Larry wrote: > This is old punch card equipment. Weights a ton. > You sure this is what you want??? Huh? Northstar Advantage looked like a Radio Shack Model 3. Has somebody interfaced unit record equipment to it? From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Mar 7 14:00:20 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:00:20 -0600 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <200703070407.XAA21901@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost> <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <45EC77DA.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <BAY116-F3EF76D869768EB0156C76A37B0@phx.gbl> <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB460A6682@mail.bensene.com> <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <5.1.0.14.2.20070306183803.0c3c00d0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070307135421.0d3dfb50@localhost> At 10:26 PM 3/6/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > My great treasure is a box of Burroughs 7971 nixies. [...] > > > They have 15 segments each making designing for them a challenge. > >15? I'd na?vely expect to see eight segments radiating from the >centre, to the corners and the centres of the edges, and eight more >segments around the edge, for a total of 16. Are two of them joined or >something? Nope. 15 segments addressable. Segments 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and six form the outside box, from top going clockwise. Two for each side, one across the bottom (4) and top. Then the verticals (split) and horizontals. Then a diagonal in each quadrant. Then the "cursor," a sort of flattened caret under all the other segments. Picture an inverted V, but with a flat instead of a point, an as wide as the other segments. They have another tube, the 5971, that has no caret and no split center vertical, thus 13 segments. But the 8971 and 7971 have 15. > > What I want it a device I can build with a PIC or two that will > > display the time and maybe the temp, plus a scrolling alpha numeric > > message uploaded to it via a USB port. > >Since you'll have to have a host on the other end of the USB line, >maybe just upload a stream of 16-bit values (well, 15-bit values, but >padding them to 16 bits each is probably easist) and let the host deal >with character generation? > > > I see USB port boards for PIC use all over the place, but I'm fairly > > daunted by the prospect of designing a circuit flexible enough to > > drive 6x15 segment nixies. Maybe a character generator in addition > > to the main PIC?? > >Why bother? Why not just generate 15-bit values for display, rather >than generating 7-bit values that mean something to a human looking at >an ASCII table and then contriving external hardware to convert them to >the 15-bit values the hardware actually needs? > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ----- 207. [Government] Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. --Ronald Reagan --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 7 14:17:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:17:04 -0800 Subject: Northstar Advantage up for trade In-Reply-To: <20070307120035.X91043@shell.lmi.net> References: <2E0669861D392744B7EF10274EAFA58F043CE3@GBSC-K3E02GB.bankcorp.com>, <20070307120035.X91043@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45EEAD40.19731.2E431FB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2007 at 12:01, Fred Cisin wrote: > Huh? Northstar Advantage looked like a Radio Shack Model 3. > Has somebody interfaced unit record equipment to it? I never *could* figure out where the card hopper was on the Advantage. --Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 7 14:16:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:16:58 -0600 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <45EDDF46.17563.2B1E868E@cclist.sydex.com>, <93FFF246-2413-41D9-A18B-5188A6356406@neurotica.com> <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45EF1DBA.3000806@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Mar 2007 at 2:25, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> There's a 16-segment VFD, the IV-17, that shows up on eBay fairly >> frequently. They're pretty nice. > > They're nice, but I was really wondering about EL--one of the > "forgotten" technologies. I remember being fascinated with EL back > in the 60's; it seemed full of promise. I recently picked up a pack > of EL night-lights and found that they were pretty much the same > thing as the one I had 40 years ago. Hmm, cost per foot of EL cable looks very good too. Not sure about sheet though (could make some interesting numerical segmented displays out of either though). Operable life looks pretty good. Might have to try and get hold of some of that for experimentation - I'm not sure where in the UK you can get it though (the handful of sites I saw were all in the US). I don't mind using "new" technologies for things if they're actually old :-) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 7 15:18:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:18:30 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EF1DBA.3000806@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com>, <45EF1DBA.3000806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45EEBBA6.2290.2E7B601A@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2007 at 14:16, Jules Richardson wrote: > Operable life looks pretty good. Might have to try and get hold of some of > that for experimentation - I'm not sure where in the UK you can get it though > (the handful of sites I saw were all in the US). I've got a bunch of the EL cable--it's pretty interesting. Planar (http://www.planar.com) seems to be the only manufacturer of EL displays--and they're not cheap. On the other hand, there is this rather bizarre Russian website that appears to have something to do with stealing a street sign and hooking it to a Sinclair Z80 system: http://www.sheppard.ru/articles/fe/radiation/index.shtml How's your Russian? Babelfish makes complete gibberish out of it. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 7 15:30:07 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:30:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EEBBA6.2290.2E7B601A@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Mar 7, 7 01:18:30 pm" Message-ID: <200703072130.l27LU72X010964@floodgap.com> > I've got a bunch of the EL cable--it's pretty interesting. Where you get? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- With a rubber duck, one's never alone. -- Douglas Adams, "HGTTG" ----------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 7 15:34:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:34:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Northstar Advantage up for trade In-Reply-To: <45EEAD40.19731.2E431FB6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <2E0669861D392744B7EF10274EAFA58F043CE3@GBSC-K3E02GB.bankcorp.com>, <20070307120035.X91043@shell.lmi.net> <45EEAD40.19731.2E431FB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070307133227.A96199@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I never *could* figure out where the card hopper was on the > Advantage. No hopper. You have to load the cards one at a time into the card drives on the front. It uses special 5.25" round cards (in a square jacket), and permits some magnetic data storage in the spaces between the punch holes. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 7 15:52:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:52:07 -0600 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EEBBA6.2290.2E7B601A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com>, <45EF1DBA.3000806@yahoo.co.uk> <45EEBBA6.2290.2E7B601A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45EF3407.1080707@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Mar 2007 at 14:16, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Operable life looks pretty good. Might have to try and get hold of some of >> that for experimentation - I'm not sure where in the UK you can get it though >> (the handful of sites I saw were all in the US). > > I've got a bunch of the EL cable--it's pretty interesting. I think one of the places I came across earlier was doing it for about $1.20 per foot; that's probably easily enough to make a large single-digit segmented display from actually (of course add HV source [1] and necessary decode logic on top of that) [1] Presumably there are various transistor options for switching; AC voltage needed seems to be pretty low (in the order of 100V) at anything from 50Hz to 2KHz. > On the other hand, there is this rather bizarre Russian website that > appears to have something to do with stealing a street sign and > hooking it to a Sinclair Z80 system: > > http://www.sheppard.ru/articles/fe/radiation/index.shtml heh heh. And that's one big PSU: http://www.sheppard.ru/articles/fe/radiation/laboratory-mipt-psupply-for-geyger.jpg > How's your Russian? Largely gleaned from Hollywood movies, unfortunately ;-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 7 15:29:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:29:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> from "Jim MacKenzie" at Mar 6, 7 09:27:06 pm Message-ID: <m1HP3hX-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > Hello, > > I just recently got approved as a participant on the list. Greetings and welcome to the list. > > I seem to have a growing collection of old and obsolete gear and I have a Be warned that if you're not careful, that hardware collection will take over your house (and any other places you can possibly store it). This is the voice of experience... > I'll mostly watch for awhile, I imagine, but I'm here, and I like the > content so far. We do get flames, alas, normally when I forget that there are people who don't own (or even want to own) an oscilloscope, and that such people do not intend to attack their porr little vintage computers with a soldering iron... (Since you're new here, I'd better explain that I came into computing very much from the electronics/hardware side of things, and do component-level repair on everything I own, treat microcode source listings as bedtime reading and so on. Sometimes I forget that some people prefer to program these fine machines...) Happy Hacking! -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 7 16:07:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:07:34 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <200703072130.l27LU72X010964@floodgap.com> References: <45EEBBA6.2290.2E7B601A@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Mar 7, 7 01:18:30 pm", <200703072130.l27LU72X010964@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45EEC726.6654.2EA84CAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2007 at 13:30, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I've got a bunch of the EL cable--it's pretty interesting. > > Where you get? Jameco has it, but I got mine a few years ago from the "cool neon" site: http://www.coolneon.com/ Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 7 16:17:41 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:17:41 -0500 Subject: Some mainstream media attention for our hobby Message-ID: <001901c76106$6c5caf20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hey listmates ... some good news ... Computerworld magazine invited me to blog for them about our hobby. I'm really excited about this because Computerworld's site reaches hundreds of thousands of people! This means awesome exposure for our hobby to a prime audience of potential new collectors. (Way back in April 2004, as many of you will recall, I announced the "Computer Collector Newsletter" ... that started with 350-ish subscribers and reached 1,000 before I burned out two full years later. But that's kiddie play compared to the likes of Computerworld.) There isn't much posted yet -- just a short bio and a short "hello world" post. There still won't be much until post-VCF East this summer. Anyway, I just wanted to share the good news. The classiccmp list will be atop the blog's links page. Feel free to suggest blog topics, etc. - Evan From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 7 16:21:32 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:21:32 -0500 Subject: Doh! RE: Some mainstream media attention for our hobby In-Reply-To: <001901c76106$6c5caf20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <001a01c76106$f7092c20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Forgot to include the link. :) http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/koblentz -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:18 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Some mainstream media attention for our hobby Hey listmates ... some good news ... Computerworld magazine invited me to blog for them about our hobby. I'm really excited about this because Computerworld's site reaches hundreds of thousands of people! This means awesome exposure for our hobby to a prime audience of potential new collectors. (Way back in April 2004, as many of you will recall, I announced the "Computer Collector Newsletter" ... that started with 350-ish subscribers and reached 1,000 before I burned out two full years later. But that's kiddie play compared to the likes of Computerworld.) There isn't much posted yet -- just a short bio and a short "hello world" post. There still won't be much until post-VCF East this summer. Anyway, I just wanted to share the good news. The classiccmp list will be atop the blog's links page. Feel free to suggest blog topics, etc. - Evan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 7 16:42:08 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 22:42:08 +0000 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <m1HP3hX-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <C214F040.8471%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 7/3/07 21:29, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Be warned that if you're not careful, that hardware collection will take > over your house (and any other places you can possibly store it). This is > the voice of experience... I'll echo that experience since I'm currently faced with the prospect of moving my entire collection 250 miles to where I'm now forced to live. Little ol' me needs a 6 room house to put everything in since I've decided that because I have to move it all I'm only willing to do it once; fortunately I've found a place that's big enough as long as the owner is a bit flexible with the rent...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 7 17:10:22 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:10:22 -0500 Subject: New subscriber References: <C214F040.8471%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <003501c7610d$c8d9e220$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham" <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:42 PM Subject: Re: New subscriber > I'll echo that experience since I'm currently faced with the prospect of > moving my entire collection 250 miles to where I'm now forced to live. > Little ol' me needs a 6 room house to put everything in since I've decided > that because I have to move it all I'm only willing to do it once; > fortunately I've found a place that's big enough as long as the owner is a > bit flexible with the rent...... > > > -- > Adrian/Witchy So that means you are moving into a place you cannot afford just because of the collection? From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 7 17:12:40 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:12:40 -0500 Subject: New subscriber References: <m1HP3hX-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <004201c7610e$1dd9adf0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 4:29 PM Subject: Re: New subscriber > We do get flames, alas, normally when I forget that there are people who > don't own (or even want to own) an oscilloscope, and that such people do > not intend to attack their porr little vintage computers with a soldering > iron... > > -tony I don't have a scope, just a handheld meter and a soldering iron so where am I in the equation? From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Mar 7 17:22:27 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:22:27 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <00a801c75e13$021b6d90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a801c75e13$021b6d90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <d67e42a90703071522r51dfc38ayd12ad5c773d8d028@mail.gmail.com> On 3/3/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/yrqnn4 > > Appears to be in very nice condition. And they are quite rare. Maybe even > worth the current price. I'm continually astonished at how rare they are. Show of hands... How many people on the list have a Compucolor II? (raises hand). Does it work? (raises other hand) For comparison, how many people have a Sol-20? (raises third hand). Back on the subject of the Compucolor, does anyone have a copy of the disk formatting program they'd be willing to send me? Or even just a formatted disk if a Catweasel or Copy IIpc option board can replicate it. The disk drive is worthless without disks. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Mar 7 17:22:27 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:22:27 -0800 Subject: compucolor II on ebay In-Reply-To: <00a801c75e13$021b6d90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a801c75e13$021b6d90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <d67e42a90703071522r51dfc38ayd12ad5c773d8d028@mail.gmail.com> On 3/3/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/yrqnn4 > > Appears to be in very nice condition. And they are quite rare. Maybe even > worth the current price. I'm continually astonished at how rare they are. Show of hands... How many people on the list have a Compucolor II? (raises hand). Does it work? (raises other hand) For comparison, how many people have a Sol-20? (raises third hand). Back on the subject of the Compucolor, does anyone have a copy of the disk formatting program they'd be willing to send me? Or even just a formatted disk if a Catweasel or Copy IIpc option board can replicate it. The disk drive is worthless without disks. Eric From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 7 17:28:02 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 23:28:02 +0000 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <003501c7610d$c8d9e220$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <C214FB02.847B%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 7/3/07 23:10, "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: >> I'll echo that experience since I'm currently faced with the prospect of >> moving my entire collection 250 miles to where I'm now forced to live. >> Little ol' me needs a 6 room house to put everything in since I've decided >> that because I have to move it all I'm only willing to do it once; >> fortunately I've found a place that's big enough as long as the owner is a >> bit flexible with the rent...... >> >> >> -- >> Adrian/Witchy > > So that means you are moving into a place you cannot afford just because of > the collection? Nooo, I can afford it, I'm not about to let 450-odd machines get me into debt! I made a mistake and thought the rent was less than it actually was :) A -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 7 17:48:33 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:48:33 -0600 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <m1HP3hX-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <m1HP3hX-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <45EF4F51.2070000@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Be warned that if you're not careful, that hardware collection will take > over your house (and any other places you can possibly store it). This is > the voice of experience... You're lucky in not owning a car, Tony - mine tends to be permanently filled with vintage bits that won't fit in the house :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 7 17:50:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:50:35 -0600 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <C214F040.8471%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C214F040.8471%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <45EF4FCB.5040300@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > I'll echo that experience since I'm currently faced with the prospect of > moving my entire collection 250 miles to where I'm now forced to live. > Little ol' me needs a 6 room house to put everything in since I've decided > that because I have to move it all I'm only willing to do it once; > fortunately I've found a place that's big enough as long as the owner is a > bit flexible with the rent...... I'm not sure that renting goes with "only willing to do it once" :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 7 17:55:37 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:55:37 -0600 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? Message-ID: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> Out of interest, whereabout in the US is good (mail order) for getting hold of tools / test gear and components? There's only a Rat Shack in town here, which as everyone knows is utterly useless for absolutely anything :( From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 7 18:02:54 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:02:54 +0000 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <45EF4FCB.5040300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <C215032E.8483%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 7/3/07 23:50, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> that because I have to move it all I'm only willing to do it once; >> fortunately I've found a place that's big enough as long as the owner is a >> bit flexible with the rent...... > > I'm not sure that renting goes with "only willing to do it once" :-) OK, Once within the next 12 months......... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 7 18:20:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:20:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 07, 2007 05:55:37 PM Message-ID: <200703080020.l280KMhD025638@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > Out of interest, whereabout in the US is good (mail order) for getting hold of > tools / test gear and components? There's only a Rat Shack in town here, which > as everyone knows is utterly useless for absolutely anything :( > > I've only had cause to order from them once, but was quite happy with Digikey. As the quality of local stores seem to be going down, I'll likely end up ordering from them again. The one downside is the Phonebook sized catalogues they've started sending me on apparently a quarterly basis. I solved the problem quite quickly by simply sticking them in the Classic Computing section of the Historical Library. :^) Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 7 18:50:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 00:50:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <004201c7610e$1dd9adf0$0b01a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Mar 7, 7 06:12:40 pm Message-ID: <m1HP6pd-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > We do get flames, alas, normally when I forget that there are people who > > don't own (or even want to own) an oscilloscope, and that such people do > > not intend to attack their porr little vintage computers with a soldering > > iron... > I don't have a scope, just a handheld meter and a soldering iron so where am > I in the equation? Well, I've said many times the most important piece of test gear is not a 'scope or multimeter, it's that thing between your ears. Your call :-) -tony From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Mar 7 19:02:29 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:02:29 -0800 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45EF60A5.6070506@garlic.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Out of interest, whereabout in the US is good (mail order) for getting > hold of tools / test gear and components? There's only a Rat Shack in > town here, which as everyone knows is utterly useless for absolutely > anything :( > > > There are Fry's Electronics in various areas of the country. I can only vouch for SF Bay area stores and they seem to have a fair-decent selection of stuff. And they restock within 12 months now. Trying their website is discouraging. Techni-tool (https://webvia.techni-tool.com/VIA/index.jsp) and contact east/jensen tools, which was eaten up by Stanley, (http://www.stanleysupplyservices.com/) are good places to order tools and test equipment. They both have lots of cool toys--i mean tools. -- jd Paranoids are people, too; they have their own problems. It's easy to criticize, but if everybody hated you, you'd be paranoid too. -- D. J. Hicks From steerex at mindspring.com Wed Mar 7 18:10:44 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 19:10:44 -0500 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? References: <200703080020.l280KMhD025638@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <000c01c76116$37663b50$a4a4fea9@win2000> > > I've only had cause to order from them once, but was quite happy with > Digikey. As the quality of local stores seem to be going down, I'll likely > end up ordering from them again. > > The one downside is the Phonebook sized catalogues they've started sending > me on apparently a quarterly basis. I solved the problem quite quickly by > simply sticking them in the Classic Computing section of the Historical > Library. :^) > I work in a small industrial electronics repair shop where we spend around $1000 a month on electronic parts and components. We order primarily from DigiKey and Mouser and are very happy with both of them. Prices may vary between suppliers so, check their prices before ordering. Note: The catalogs are great asset. It's kinda like browsing the toy section of the Sears Roebuck catalog as a kid 8^) I also buy quite a few bulk components (transistors, caps, etc...) off Ebay. Never had a bad experience with any of the vendors. See ya, SteveRob From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Mar 7 19:11:48 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:11:48 -0800 Subject: New subscriber Message-ID: <04d4d80b5ed49543939299f0d9f14084@valleyimplants.com> > On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Jim MacKenzie wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> I just recently got approved as a participant on the list. >> >> Welcome, pull up a VAX cluster etc. :-) > > Speaking of which, and continuing my wantwantwant: does anyone have a > fairly recent OpenVMS VAX (i.e. beyond 7.3-something, whatever version > shipped TCP/IP with ssh v2, or better) ? In return I can assist with > kits > from a recent-ish CONDIST for OpenVMS VAX. That would be difficult. OpenVMS AXP can be done (but is not convenient - I've been keeping tabs on the Hobbyist distro and they're trying to remaster with v8.2, but it is slow). v8.anything VAX would require acquisition of sources and backporting. VAX support stopped at 7.3 (boo, hiss, and all that I suppose). BTW, excl. a better SSH (which can be done with Multinet or TCPware, see www.process.com [they even have hobbyist licenses]) what are the advantages of v8 for you? From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Mar 7 19:18:24 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:18:24 -0500 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <004201c7610e$1dd9adf0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200703080118.l281IM42022546@hosting.monisys.ca> > > We do get flames, alas, normally when I forget that there are people who > > don't own (or even want to own) an oscilloscope, and that such people do > > not intend to attack their porr little vintage computers with a soldering > > iron... > > I don't have a scope, just a handheld meter and a soldering iron so where am > I in the equation? Humm... Perhaps on the smarter side :-) It seems test gear can become a "sickness" too ... A quick inventory turned up 7 scopes, 2 logic analysers, at least a dozen multimeters, 4 counters, 4 EPROM programmers, several irons and stations, more emulators and evaluation boards than I care to count, and a whole pile more "essential tools" ... (If anyone's REALLY bored, I put a partial list on my "information about me" page a while back). And I thought it was just the classic systems that were crowding me out of my workshop... -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 19:24:24 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:24:24 -0500 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <200703080020.l280KMhD025638@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703080020.l280KMhD025638@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5A22233D-F474-4D53-BA98-285C2E00614B@neurotica.com> On Mar 7, 2007, at 7:20 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Out of interest, whereabout in the US is good (mail order) for >> getting hold of >> tools / test gear and components? There's only a Rat Shack in town >> here, which >> as everyone knows is utterly useless for absolutely anything :( > > I've only had cause to order from them once, but was quite happy with > Digikey. As the quality of local stores seem to be going down, > I'll likely > end up ordering from them again. Oddly enough, the confirmation email for my most recent DigiKey order came two messages after this one in my mail spool. :) I order from them and from Mouser Electronics with some frequency. They are both top-notch. > The one downside is the Phonebook sized catalogues they've started > sending > me on apparently a quarterly basis. I solved the problem quite > quickly by > simply sticking them in the Classic Computing section of the > Historical > Library. :^) Both DigiKey's and Mouser's catalogs are available for download as PDF files, by the way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 7 19:36:34 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:36:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <5A22233D-F474-4D53-BA98-285C2E00614B@neurotica.com> References: <200703080020.l280KMhD025638@onyx.spiritone.com> <5A22233D-F474-4D53-BA98-285C2E00614B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703072034491.28777@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oddly enough, the confirmation email for my most recent DigiKey order came > two messages after this one in my mail spool. :) I order from them and from > Mouser Electronics with some frequency. They are both top-notch. Along with Mouser and Digikey, I also occasionally order from Allied Electronics: http://www.alliedelec.com/ They don't have a minimum order amount, and their prices are usually somewhere between Digikey and Jameco. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 7 19:45:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:45:14 -0800 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <m1HP6pd-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <004201c7610e$1dd9adf0$0b01a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Mar 7, 7 06:12:40 pm, <m1HP6pd-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <45EEFA2A.20301.2F6F8EED@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2007 at 0:50, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I've said many times the most important piece of test gear is not a > 'scope or multimeter, it's that thing between your ears. Your call :-) That reminds me--has anyone thought to clone the HP Logic Dart? There have been numerous times when I've thought one would really be handy. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 7 19:49:27 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:49:27 -0500 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? References: <200703080020.l280KMhD025638@onyx.spiritone.com> <5A22233D-F474-4D53-BA98-285C2E00614B@neurotica.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703072034491.28777@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <008701c76124$05405e90$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen" <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 8:36 PM Subject: Re: tools / test gear / components in the US? > > Along with Mouser and Digikey, I also occasionally order from Allied > Electronics: > > http://www.alliedelec.com/ > > They don't have a minimum order amount, and their prices are usually > somewhere between Digikey and Jameco. > I use Allied also because of the no minimum order, needed some funky fuse that I blew on an old SCSI card and they had it cheap. Ebay is also decent for parts if you can find them listed. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 7 19:48:08 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:48:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: OpenVMS (was Re: New subscriber) In-Reply-To: <04d4d80b5ed49543939299f0d9f14084@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Mar 07, 2007 05:11:48 PM Message-ID: <200703080148.l281m8lo027742@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Speaking of which, and continuing my wantwantwant: does anyone have a > > fairly recent OpenVMS VAX (i.e. beyond 7.3-something, whatever version > > shipped TCP/IP with ssh v2, or better) ? In return I can assist with > > kits > > from a recent-ish CONDIST for OpenVMS VAX. > > That would be difficult. OpenVMS AXP can be done (but is not convenient > - I've been keeping tabs on the Hobbyist distro and they're trying to > remaster with v8.2, but it is slow). > > v8.anything VAX would require acquisition of sources and backporting. > VAX support stopped at 7.3 (boo, hiss, and all that I suppose). OpenVMS/VAX V7.3 isn't that hard for Hobbyists to obtain, it's the version on the V3 VAX Hobbyist CD. I've been having problems getting a current Alpha Condist, my latest copy is 3-4 years old. Of course I think my most recent VAX (maybe my only VAX Condist), is from '98. The only two VAXen I have at home are running 5.5-2. Though I'm wishing the one was running 7.3 so I could cluster it with my primary Alpha. I've got my reasons for running HP TCPIP on my Alpha's, however, for VAXen, I'd recommend Multinet (I don't believe TCPware supports bridging DECnet), and I've been tempted to move to Multinet on my Alpha's as well. Even though VAX is stuck at 7.3, I believe it's still supported for clustering with Alpha and Itanium systems running 8.3. > BTW, excl. a better SSH (which can be done with Multinet or TCPware, > see www.process.com [they even have hobbyist licenses]) what are the > advantages of v8 for you? I'm still running 7.3-2 on my primary XP1000, my secondary XP1000 has 8.3 on it, but I've not even had time to install the license PAKs (needless to say the second system isn't powered on). If you're wondering what it will get you, I'd recommend looking at the release notes for V8.2 and V8.3. I believe one of the big selling points is greater ease in porting from Unix. IIRC, there are also some SMTP enhancements that I'm interested in. Oh, the HP supported Samba V3 is another big advantage. At the moment my big problem is I need a newer version of PHP and MySQL. One of these days when I have the time, I'll duplicate my system disk and upgrade my primary to V8.3, though I believe I might have to include a RDB upgrade in that plan. I'd been holding off waiting for a version of RDB that supports V8.3 (been out for a couple months at least), and for a reason to retire Pathworks for Mac (Appletalk). The DST patches gave me a reason to retire Appletalk from my system. Appletalk was keeping me at a low patchlevel on 7.3-2 and keeping me from upgrading my Mac past 10.3.9, now I need to find time to upgrade the OS on both systems. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 7 19:51:52 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:51:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <5A22233D-F474-4D53-BA98-285C2E00614B@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 07, 2007 08:24:24 PM Message-ID: <200703080151.l281pqfa027829@onyx.spiritone.com> > > The one downside is the Phonebook sized catalogues they've started > > sending me on apparently a quarterly basis. I solved the problem quite > > quickly by simply sticking them in the Classic Computing section of the > > Historical Library. :^) > > Both DigiKey's and Mouser's catalogs are available for download as > PDF files, by the way. In spite of my "complaint" about getting the catalogs, I'd much rather thumb through the paper copy. I just don't have a use at the moment for the pair I've gotten so far, and I don't have room for them. If I need to use them, I can borrow them from the Historical library. Zane From allain at panix.com Wed Mar 7 20:11:39 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:11:39 -0500 Subject: Some mainstream media attention for our hobby References: <001901c76106$6c5caf20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <00b601c76127$1c0ecfa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Hey listmates ... some good news Yup > Feel free to suggest blog topics, etc. The things that come immediately to mind to cover are the superlatives: Largest collection, largest single computer, life most dedicated to the hobby, oldest electronic computer, oldest mechanical, Largest Mainframe simulation running on the smallest hardware... That ought to keep the blog busy. John A. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 7 20:50:28 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:50:28 -0600 Subject: H960 cable management Message-ID: <005d01c7612c$881b1500$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm curious about how cable management was typically done on the H960 cabinets when stuffed with peripherals... by DEC field engineers. As I've racked up several peripherals for my 11/34 and tonight I was racking the last bits I want to go with my 11/45 - the problem becomes rather obvious. Put two RL0x's in a cab right together and you quickly realize it's a pain cause the cables from the top one drag on the bottom drive (making it come out too) when when pulling it out to mount platters, etc. If you leave enough slack for the cable to go out with the drive, it'll get caught when pushing the drive back and such. In some of the later white "corporate cabs" I have seen (and have) spring loaded bars to ziptie the cables to. However, I suspect this particular arrangement wasn't done on the older H960 cabs generally - when they first came out and all. I haven't come across much in any of the installation manuals I've seen that really talk about routing the power and data cables in an H960 for peripherals that slide out the front and lock on chassi-trak rails. What was usually done historically in the field? I can jerry rig something that will work... but I'd rather find out what was done as installed by DEC installers at the time. I'd appreciate any advice, pointers to manuals I must not be finding, etc. And yes, this means I'm getting ready to revisit my 11/45 restoration. Where I left it off, the thing was basically running (booting xxdp and running some diags) but it had a problem with interrupts. No matter what device interrupted, it always got a constant vector (3 or 4 or 0, I forget what). I'm hoping Tony can direct me on how to troubleshoot that when I get back to it. Before I start troubleshooting I need to go back and refamiliarize myself with the box (check where I had jumpers for NPR removed, recheck all the power supplies, move all the cards back to a sane test setup). After that I'll be asking the wise ones here for direction :) Jay West From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Mar 7 21:08:21 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 22:08:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <200703080118.l281IM42022546@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703080118.l281IM42022546@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703080309.WAA09191@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It seems test gear can become a "sickness" too ... A quick inventory > turned up 7 scopes, 2 logic analysers, at least a dozen multimeters, > 4 counters, 4 EPROM programmers, several irons and stations, more > emulators and evaluation boards than I care to count, and a whole > pile more "essential tools" ... > And I thought it was just the classic systems that were crowding me > out of my workshop... I'll be happy to do my part towards relieving your test-gear clutter next time I'm in your neck of the woods! :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Mar 7 21:12:57 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 19:12:57 -0800 Subject: Northstar Advantage up for trade Message-ID: <d4d17df6d2c96f2e88541ebc5106ee06@valleyimplants.com> > On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I never *could* figure out where the card hopper was on the >> Advantage. > > No hopper. > You have to load the cards one at a time into the card drives on the > front. It uses special 5.25" round cards (in a square jacket), and > permits some magnetic data storage in the spaces between the punch > holes. Those early 5.25" punched cards don't have the best data density, but on the upside they beat the Apple cards (1-bit per card). As an added feature, they come pre-punched so you don't need to mess with them. All "ones", though. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 7 21:20:27 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:20:27 -0700 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:27:06 -0600. <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0@melbourne> Message-ID: <E1HP9B5-0008FA-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <003001c76068$7b8aaea0$0adea8c0 at melbourne>, "Jim MacKenzie" <jim at photojim.ca> writes: > I just recently got approved as a participant on the list. Cool! > I seem to have a growing collection of old and obsolete gear and I have a > lot of fun with it. [...] Having fun is important! :-) > I have three VAXen (a VAXstation 4000/60 with 32 MB RAM running OpenBSD 4.0, I've got a 4000/300 running VMS something. I need to back up its system drive and then I was thinking of putting OpenVMS on it. I still need to get the hobbyist CD... > a VAXstation 3100/unsure :) that's undeployed, and a > VAX 4000/100 that's also undeployed), a couple of Suns (a Sparcstation 20 > with dual Ross HyperSparc 180 MHz processors and 288 MB RAM running NetBSD > 3.1, and an Ultra 1/170E with 640 MB RAM running Debian Stable), a Commodore > 128, a few Commodore 64s, two Commodore VIC-20s, and some obsolete i386 > stuff too. :) I've got a Sun 3/110 and a SPARCstation 5 that I need to put through a checkout procedure, but haven't done anything yet. I have a CBM 8032 that's probably the start of all my vintage madness ;-). I've written a few little basic programs for it and stored them on the 8052 floppy. I'm trying to get a FORTH deployed on it so that I can make it do something a little more interesting than running interpreted basic. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 7 21:50:45 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:50:45 -0600 Subject: H960 cable management In-Reply-To: <005d01c7612c$881b1500$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <005d01c7612c$881b1500$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45EF8815.7090208@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > I haven't come across much in any of the installation manuals I've seen > that really talk about routing the power and data cables in an H960 for > peripherals that slide out the front and lock on chassi-trak rails. What > was usually done historically in the field? > > I can jerry rig something that will work... but I'd rather find out what > was done as installed by DEC installers at the time. I'd appreciate any > advice, pointers to manuals I must not be finding, etc. If you go by my experience, with at least 15 racks or half-racks of system cabinets, drives, expansion drawers, and various crap, you haven't missed anything. In every rack of DEC gear I've rescued, all of it mid-late PDP-11 or early Alpha era and all but two straight from the environment where they lived and worked, cable management is strictly a la zip-tie. I'm neither kidding nor exaggerating. The DEC FEs assembled this stuff like nobody but them would ever open the back door. *Lame*. Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 7 16:38:11 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 22:38:11 +0000 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <200703072130.l27LU72X010964@floodgap.com> References: <200703072130.l27LU72X010964@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45EF3ED3.9050708@gjcp.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I've got a bunch of the EL cable--it's pretty interesting. > > Where you get? > Ikea (!) had little EL-wire toys with about a metre of EL wire and a little battery pack that takes 2xAA batteries, all for about 2 quid each. They had huge boxes of them. Carolyne and I bought about a dozen between us ;-) Loads of fun... http://www.flickr.com/photos/carolynesmith/sets/72157594571071249/ Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Mar 7 18:42:21 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:42:21 -0500 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? Message-ID: <0JEK005GE77A78SB@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: tools / test gear / components in the US? >> >> Out of interest, whereabout in the US is good (mail order) for getting hold of >> tools / test gear and components? There's only a Rat Shack in town here, which >> as everyone knows is utterly useless for absolutely anything :( Digikey is one, Mouser, JDRmicrodevices Jameco I've used all of them and some others at one time or another. Ratshack used to have Allied electonics (big supplier) but, that may have gone away. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 01:24:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:24:12 -0500 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <45EDDF46.17563.2B1E868E@cclist.sydex.com>, <93FFF246-2413-41D9-A18B-5188A6356406@neurotica.com> <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> On Mar 7, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There's a 16-segment VFD, the IV-17, that shows up on eBay fairly >> frequently. They're pretty nice. > > They're nice, but I was really wondering about EL--one of the > "forgotten" technologies. Oh ok, I thought VF might be "close enough" for whatever you had in mind. I really like VFDs myself. So bright & sharp. > I remember being fascinated with EL back > in the 60's; it seemed full of promise. I recently picked up a pack > of EL night-lights and found that they were pretty much the same > thing as the one I had 40 years ago. They really are neat. I don't see EL technology used for much other than backlighting nowadays, though. How is the life span of EL? My dusty neurons seem to say that they wear out in several years? Is that the case? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 01:25:10 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:25:10 -0500 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <003501c7610d$c8d9e220$0b01a8c0@game> References: <C214F040.8471%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> <003501c7610d$c8d9e220$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <679F7143-E42D-4719-8B30-71DA360AA36F@neurotica.com> On Mar 7, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I'll echo that experience since I'm currently faced with the >> prospect of >> moving my entire collection 250 miles to where I'm now forced to >> live. >> Little ol' me needs a 6 room house to put everything in since I've >> decided >> that because I have to move it all I'm only willing to do it once; >> fortunately I've found a place that's big enough as long as the >> owner is a >> bit flexible with the rent...... > > So that means you are moving into a place you cannot afford just > because of > the collection? Some things really are more important than money.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 01:43:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:43:14 -0500 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <45EEFA2A.20301.2F6F8EED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004201c7610e$1dd9adf0$0b01a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Mar 7, 7 06:12:40 pm, <m1HP6pd-000J0gC@p850ug1> <45EEFA2A.20301.2F6F8EED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <38C554DF-C3CB-4F7E-B6CE-EF038BBD5D5E@neurotica.com> On Mar 7, 2007, at 8:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well, I've said many times the most important piece of test gear >> is not a >> 'scope or multimeter, it's that thing between your ears. Your >> call :-) > > That reminds me--has anyone thought to clone the HP Logic Dart? > There have been numerous times when I've thought one would really be > handy. I'd love to have one of those little buggers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From walkerpa at ihug.co.nz Thu Mar 8 03:32:48 2007 From: walkerpa at ihug.co.nz (Peter Walker) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 22:32:48 +1300 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand Message-ID: <000401c76164$bbed8d80$0201010a@phatboy> For the record a PDP 11/04 is on offer at: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Computers/Vintage/auction-90878548.htm I seem to recall that comment on the list has been that these machines are fairly easily obtained. And there's the *slight* drawback for anyone who's interested that it's pick-up only! Cheers, Peter From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 8 07:49:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:49:34 -0600 Subject: Some mainstream media attention for our hobby In-Reply-To: <00b601c76127$1c0ecfa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <001901c76106$6c5caf20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <00b601c76127$1c0ecfa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <45F0146E.7000806@yahoo.co.uk> John Allain wrote: > oldest electronic computer *please* don't go there :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 8 07:58:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:58:01 -0600 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <45EDDF46.17563.2B1E868E@cclist.sydex.com>, <93FFF246-2413-41D9-A18B-5188A6356406@neurotica.com> <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com> <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F01669.2030900@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > They really are neat. I don't see EL technology used for much other > than backlighting nowadays, though. How is the life span of EL? My > dusty neurons seem to say that they wear out in several years? Is that > the case? I think one site I saw was claiming 250 days of "useful" life at continuous use and "normal" conditions. Lower power (and hence less glow) will improve lifespan, and the stuff never actually burns out but does become dimmer over time. (in other words for the application I had in mind I'd probably be looking at 7 hours per day use, so with some fiddling with the power [1] could expect about 3 years of life) [1] I'm not sure whether running at lower voltage is key, or if it's changing the frequency which changes the lifespan (or rather, how those two relate). cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 8 07:59:49 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:59:49 -0600 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <E1HP9B5-0008FA-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HP9B5-0008FA-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45F016D5.2010603@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > I have a CBM 8032 that's probably the start of all my vintage madness ;-) Have we ever had a "what got you started" thread? Probably :-) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 8 08:02:31 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:02:31 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 22:32:48 +1300. <000401c76164$bbed8d80$0201010a@phatboy> Message-ID: <E1HPJCR-0003Bo-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <000401c76164$bbed8d80$0201010a at phatboy>, "Peter Walker" <walkerpa at ihug.co.nz> writes: > For the record a PDP 11/04 is on offer at: > http://www.trademe.co.nz/Computers/Vintage/auction-90878548.htm > > I seem to recall that comment on the list has been that these machines are > fairly easily obtained. And there's the *slight* drawback for anyone who's > interested that it's pick-up only! It includes a VT-52 and *that* sure as hell isn't easily obtained. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 8 08:29:11 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:29:11 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand References: <E1HPJCR-0003Bo-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <003201c7618e$24edc100$6600a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > It includes a VT-52 and *that* sure as hell isn't easily obtained. There's one on ebay right now (a VT52). Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 8 08:38:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:38:29 -0600 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F01FE5.1050708@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Out of interest, whereabout in the US is good (mail order) for getting > hold of tools / test gear and components? There's only a Rat Shack in > town here, which as everyone knows is utterly useless for absolutely > anything :( Thanks for all the replies everyone - certainly given me a few useful places to look at anyway. Like Zane, I prefer to have real paper catalogues rather than some electronic version anyway, which is making Digikey sound good... cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 8 09:16:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:16:07 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:29:11 -0600. <003201c7618e$24edc100$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <E1HPKLf-0004rT-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <003201c7618e$24edc100$6600a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes: > Richard wrote... > > It includes a VT-52 and *that* sure as hell isn't easily obtained. > > There's one on ebay right now (a VT52). Description sez: VT52 sold "as-is". Its old and beat up, doesn't boot. ESCape key is MIA. I think my original statement still stands... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Mar 8 09:33:19 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:33:19 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 43, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: <200703080141.l281ea3r006242@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703080141.l281ea3r006242@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <p06240805c215dc42ac94@[129.162.152.69]> At 19:41 -0600 3/7/07, ard wrote: >Well, I've said many times the most important piece of test gear is not a >'scope or multimeter, it's that thing between your ears. Your call :-) Ah. My "ballast". (My family calls it 'rocks', but what do they know ...) -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 8 09:52:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:52:12 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com>, <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45EFC0AC.11259.3276F9B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2007 at 2:24, Dave McGuire wrote: > They really are neat. I don't see EL technology used for much > other than backlighting nowadays, though. How is the life span of > EL? My dusty neurons seem to say that they wear out in several > years? Is that the case? >From what I've read, the lifetime thing's been pretty much licked on modern units. Planar apparently produced quite a few full-color displays for DOD, but then got derailed when DOD decided to adopt TFT for displays. The "cool neon" EL wire really does run the phosphors quite "hot" and I've heard that they will begin dropping in brightness after a couple hundred hours. Apparently, however, some of the white LED phosphor technology is migrating to EL use, as I'm starting to see superbright white wire now. I'm surprised that Grid Compass 1101 owners haven't popped up to volunteer that their systems use an EL displayl. How's the brightness holding up? Sharp apparently makes EL displays, but they're hard to find. Here's a datasheet for a 640x480 unit: http://www.eichler-gmbh.de/LJ64ZU51.pdf Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Mar 8 02:30:35 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:30:35 +0000 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <45EDDF46.17563.2B1E868E@cclist.sydex.com>, <93FFF246-2413-41D9-A18B-5188A6356406@neurotica.com> <45EE8174.17865.2D980D54@cclist.sydex.com> <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45EFC9AB.4000701@gjcp.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > They really are neat. I don't see EL technology used for much other > than backlighting nowadays, though. How is the life span of EL? My > dusty neurons seem to say that they wear out in several years? Is that > the case? Lots of electronic music gear used to use EL backlights. Blue or white LEDs are the fashion now ;-) There's a thriving trade in repair kits for the EL backlights in, oh just about everything that used them. Some that come immediately to mind are the Casio VZ series, older Akais (S1100 seemed particularly bad) and E-mu EMax/Emulator II displays. They're not expensive, and basically just consist of a new EL foil that you put into the display. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 8 10:12:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:12:50 -0800 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EFC9AB.4000701@gjcp.net> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000>, <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com>, <45EFC9AB.4000701@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45EFC582.21946.3289DD51@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2007 at 8:30, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Lots of electronic music gear used to use EL backlights. Blue or white > LEDs are the fashion now ;-) Yup, the ancient Casio WK-1200 keyboard that I have sitting right by my desk uses a blue-green one. It's still plenty bright and it's got years on the backlight. Hmmm, got a URL for someplace selling the replacement foils? Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 8 10:34:19 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:34:19 -0800 Subject: hard drive specs In-Reply-To: <000001c76064$ca9a62a0$0a6fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <BAY138-F374C0A6E8F0414955D2135A3790@phx.gbl> Hi All I found a good site with a lot of hard drive specs. It looks like a good site to add to ones bookmarks. http://www.4drives.com/DRIVESPECS/ Later Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Mar 8 11:25:24 2007 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:25:24 -0000 Subject: OT Re: Is this true?? (TI & watches) References: <m1HK1oV-000J16C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <024b01c761a6$c26f7be0$0600a8c0@P2Desktop> From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > > > > > > Does anyone remember that the oldest of said wall clocks required the > > > owner to start the motor manually by spinning a little knurled shaft > > > located on the back? > > I've enver actually used one, but I've seen them, and read about them. > > Another method that was common over here was to have a spring-loaded > lever that was operarted when you pusehd or pulled the set-hands knob to > set the time. Releasing said knob caused the lever to give a 'kick' to > the motor's rotor to get it going in the right direction. These little > synchonous motors were symmetircal and could run either way, so you might > end up with a clock that runs backwards :-). > > Mroe recent clocks have a mechanism that detects if the motor is turning > backwards and if so, stop it and kick it back again, thus getting it > going the right way. On a clock fitted with a second hand, you will see > it run backwards for a few seconds sometimes when you connect it to the > mains until said device operates and getis going the right way. > I have one of the early manual start synchronous clocks running in the lounge at this moment. It's a Ferranti clock from around 1934, and gives very good service. It's quite happy running in either direction. I also have an electrically re-wound clock from about 1920, which was used as a time switch. The clock is regulated by a pendulum, but uses a large rotary solenoid to rewind the clock about every five minutes - by using a small proportion of the spring, the accuracy is improved, as the drive power varies as a spring runs down, leading to inaccuracies in the timekeeping of a simple spring driven clock. A few other interesting timepieces about the place are a Junghan mantel clock which uses an electrically impulsed pendulum (impulsed every swing of the pendulum), but is fairly inaccurate, due to a short pendulum made of steel. A GPO Clock No36, which was used in British telephone exchanges for generating metering pulses - it is a Hipp type clock, with a 1 Second pendulum, driven by an electromagnet, and gives out 1, 6, and 30 second impulses. The rated accuracy is 8 seconds per week, but in practice, they can be regulated to a better accuracy than that. Finally, there is a Telephone Rentals master clock, which has a 1 second pendulum, and a gravity impulse mechanism, similar to the Synchronome type (think cheap copy.....), which is attached to a uniselector chronogram - basically a seven day time switch made of uniselectors, allowing on and off periods to be set to an accuracy of 1 minute anywhere in a week. Bringing the subject back to vintage computers, my current project is to use one of my old Vaxstations as a NTP server on my home network, coupled to a radio clock of similar vintage. Jim From richard.smith at mewgull.com Thu Mar 8 11:52:34 2007 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:52:34 +0000 Subject: Gemini, Shugart and Xebec Message-ID: <20070308175229.8F7244CB76@smtp.nildram.co.uk> Hi all, I've just dug out my old Gemini 80-BUS computer to remind myself what I was doing back then..... It has a Shugart SA604 hard drive with a Xebec S1410 controller and a Gemini GM829 FDC/ SASI controller card.....as well as two TEC FB-504 floppy drives. I have the original test certificate for the Shugart, dated 5-16-84 signed off by the operator Barb! I have a file with all the old user manuals, and a catalogue from the mid-1980s with a price list from May 1986! Question is, do I put this lot back into the cupboard, do I sell it or do I junk it? Any suggestions? Richard From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 12:00:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:00:04 -0500 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <45F01FE5.1050708@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> <45F01FE5.1050708@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <A6683838-D7B2-4703-AB9A-C052B9590972@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 9:38 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Out of interest, whereabout in the US is good (mail order) for >> getting hold of tools / test gear and components? There's only a >> Rat Shack in town here, which as everyone knows is utterly useless >> for absolutely anything :( > > Thanks for all the replies everyone - certainly given me a few > useful places to look at anyway. > > Like Zane, I prefer to have real paper catalogues rather than some > electronic version anyway, which is making Digikey sound good... Mouser also sends out gigantic paper catalogs.. (lest you think the decision is that easy!) Realistically speaking, you'll need to deal with several distributors. Even carrying different parts numbered in the hundreds of thousands, no distributor can (practically) carry them all. When purchasing components for a project, I almost always place orders with both DigiKey and Mouser, and sometimes one or two other vendors as well (usually direct from the manufacturer...Analog Devices, Linear Technology, etc). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 12:10:59 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:10:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand In-Reply-To: <000401c76164$bbed8d80$0201010a@phatboy> References: <000401c76164$bbed8d80$0201010a@phatboy> Message-ID: <905D5983-8E0B-4E99-92AC-0A99247855BE@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:32 AM, Peter Walker wrote: > For the record a PDP 11/04 is on offer at: > http://www.trademe.co.nz/Computers/Vintage/auction-90878548.htm > > I seem to recall that comment on the list has been that these > machines are > fairly easily obtained. And there's the *slight* drawback for > anyone who's > interested that it's pick-up only! There's a BIG tendency amongst people on this list to insist, loudly, that something is "not rare" or "easily obtained" because: - that person obtained one easily, once - they saw one on eBay, once - that person simply owns one - they are, or once were, common where that person lives Having moved from the Washington DC area down to Florida a few years ago, I can tell you from frustrating first-hand experience that the availability of stuff like this is highly geographically- influenced. Up in DC I even had neighbors who had PDP-11s. Down here, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of PDP-11s in Florida are in my house. Being absolutely starved for "new to me" PDP-11 equipment for the past five years since I moved to Florida, I'm about ready to SWIM to New Zealand to get that 11/04 with all of its glorious RK05 drives. Or even just the RK05 drives, for that matter! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From erik at baigar.de Thu Mar 8 12:27:08 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:27:08 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703081741170.27398-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Dear vintage computing fans, in this posting I want to report the community on the restoration and reverse-engineering project I did over the last two years as a hobby. Maybe someone is interested in this or even has valuable information. http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/p8172677.jpg Beginning of 2005 I got this small airborne computer via eBay and I bought it mainly because of the 96k of core memory inside. Those days some of these have been sold by ABEX and it is still on their web page: http://www.abex.co.uk/sales/electronic/other/programmer/item.htm But they do not have them any more :-( :-( :-( (see below) In this forum William Maddox mentioned an eBay auction regarding one of these in his Nov/17/2003s posting "Latest EBay finds, including a real museum piece". After getting the unit I disassembled it and noticed that this must be a complete computer (size a little bigger than a shoe box) and I tried to collect information. But as expected no one was able supply significant information so I started PHASE0 (January 2005): Inspecting of all PCBs I drew basic wiring schemes and located the major parts of the system as timing generation, core logic, core drivers, microcode, ALU and so on. It became clear: THIS IS A 12-BIT MACHINE. The number of connectors of the box is limited (one for power, 5 plugs connecting to some kind of serial differential links and only one very big 135-pin beast). Since the big plug was the only one equipted with a protection cover I got the hope, that everything neccessary to operate the unit is within the one box I have got and not distributed over more devices. http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/Connectors.jpg Here I made the decision to continue reverse-engineering with the goal to make the unit OPERATIONAL. PHASE1 (March 2005): I put the core memory aside and investigated the power supply. Since I do not have got the 100V-tree phase AC of some weired frequency, this small switch mode power supply seems to quire, I figured out what voltages this generates and supplied them from external supplies (5V, 8A; -5V, +12V and variable voltage for core). I also located the "power good" signal and applied this, too. See pictures: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/SupplyWithSubAssembly.jpg http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/SupplyBackplane.jpg http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/PowerSuppSubAssy1.jpg Now I was able to supply power and observed with the oscilloscope that there is activity. Now I thoroughly examined the core section until I had a good idea how it works, leading to PHASE2 (April 2005): supplying data to the data lines by using a 12-bit DIP-switch. This allowed me to make te processor reading the same word of data over and over again and therby stepping through the whole address space. http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/Switches.jpg With this I characterized the core memory timing, I tried to identify important lines, refined my schematics and connected a logic analyzer to all vital signals. In applying different patterns I already discovered read instructions, 2-cycle instructions, read-modify-write instructions and some instructions freezing the unit and requiring a power cycle (not only a reset pulse!): http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/Switches.jpg http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/DeviceUnderTest.jpg In parallel I did detective work on the stickers and posted my information to a thread in rec.aviation.military. This lead to the suspicion that the unit is from an early tornado aircraft (probably only from one of the first prototypes) and was responsible for controling some kind of display: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/Sticker1.jpg These experiments showed me that (a) the machine is not completely dead and that (b) the command set is not compatible (this was my hope first) with the well known PDP8 or any other known 12-bit machine. So what was needed was PHASE 3 (Sep 2005) an in-circuit analyter and the possibility to read and write core memory. With quite a amount of reverse- engineering, thinking and try-and-error I discovered a DMA mechanism which in my opinion was used to load software onto the unit via the big plug - but was unused during normal operation (big plug sealed off). Since I hate any PC-stuff and I needed a powerful and real-time capable tool to generate the appropriate timing for writing into the core, I decided to use a vintage transputer board from a ParsyTec-Megaframe, running the operating system helios (beautiful unix-type parallel OS) which I connected to the Programmer Electronic Control using a homemade interface PCB and flat ribbon cables: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/TrapuInterface.jpg During this process I refined my schematics again, analyzed the ALU and the timing generation and made more professional connections to the logic analyzer: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/Connection.jpg Here much efford went into establishing all the tools needed - but it was worth the efford, since in this environment the complete cycle of - doing a modification (solder iron), - booting the helios (UNIX!), - triggering the logic analyzer - launching the test software - read out the results only takes 20 seconds. To be on-topic here: Vintage techniques involved in the setup: + Sun Sparc 20 for GPIB-interfacing to logic analzyer, and for booting the helios client via BBK-S4 board. + One T805 entry-node of a Parsytec PowerXplorer for development and ompiling of the helios software. This is booted from the SunSparc 20 as well. + SGI Indigo2 as frontend and data processing. Soon the timing matched what the processor does on its own. PHASE4 (Nov 2005): I inserted the core memory and tested my tools on word 0 only (read, write) and it was perfect. So the hope was to recover information still sitting in the memory. But after doing tests on word 0 and than reading the remaining 4095 words, I only discovered some type of test pattern beeing inside the memory. But now the tools worked very well allowing cycles of (1) Write test patterns (2) Let unit execute some cycles (3) Observe dataflow (logic analyzer) and read out core memory. (4) Put data into files for later analysis (dinotrace). One of these cycles takes around 15 seconds. PHASE5 (Jan 2006): Doing lots of cycles I discovered lots of commands and instructions. So this lead to defining a own assembler language. In parallel I implemented an assembler understanding the already discovered commands and generating files suitable for writing into the core memory. So it became more and more comfortable to write test programs to analyze new instructions. In this manner I analyzed systematically the whole 12 bit space to discover jump instructions, arithmetic instructions and so on. In summary this is a VERY ARCHAIC and unusual machine: - THE MACHINE HAS 1 ACCUMULATOR - THERE EXISTS ONE INDEX REGISTER (indirect addressing) - CALCULATION IS DONE IN 1-complement!!! - NO CARRY-FLAG (essentially all arithmetic only uses bit 0-11, bit 12 is sign/carry) - SHIFT-COMMANDS use a hidden 12bit SHIFT REGISTER! - There is a MULTIPLY-INSTRUCTION (did not expect this!)!!! - Only one instruction for ABSOLUTE JUMPS using a very delicate table jump algorithm. This can be used to simulate someting like a CALL (no stack on this unit!) - Really ugly! Doing this it became obvious that the unit has problems in accessing the upper 4k words of memory. In doing so it freezes, requiring a power cycle to recover. So far I was not able to locate the problem and unfortunately all attempts to get hands on a second unit for swapping the micro code and sequence generator failed. # ## ### # # # ##### # # # ### # # ## It must be a problem with micro-code since the unit can execute code in the upper half, but data access fails. In writing bigger programs I encountered problems in my transputer setup related to refresh cycles on the transputer PCB: PHASE 6 (Nov 2006): The box itself runs at 1.2us cycle time for core accesses, but the core timing has to be accurate to <30ns for proper operation. The built-in refresh of the DRAM on the transputer lead to an error-rate of approx 1% in my tools writing and reading core. So a small PCB had to be added to the transputer setup to detect this refresh cycles and to synchronize the helios software to them: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/RefreshDetect.jpg http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/T805refreshOK.jpg With this the error rate dropped to 0.004% which is more than enough for the application. From there on the complete setup did not change any more: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/SetUpPanorama.jpg http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/SetUpPanoramaExplained.jpg Today the assembler understands approximately 25 instructions, generates appropriate warnings and errors and warns if an instruction will freeze the unit (TCL together with m4 makes it very easy to write such a macro-assembler and tcl past 8.4.7 is reasonable fast to lead to very short compile times even on my slow hardware)... PHASE 7 (Jan 2007): A closer look at the serial links revealed that they are some type of serial, differential SPI buses, allowing messages of 12 bit + 2bit identifier + some kind of address. Not all identifiers can be sent out on all plugs. These interfaces (as my limited understanding of this is) should be panavia-link or short panlink interfaces. But sorry - I do not know any details about this: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/PanLink1.gif The latest action was, to build a small interface PCB to decode the messages, i.e. seperate data from address and identifier and generate CS and CE signals. With this it is possible to connect different devices to these serial links in the future. The first device I connected two weeks ago was a small LCD display and look - it works: http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/ConsoleLCDonDPL03.jpg In my assembler, this "Hello World" looks like this (including initialization of the display): reset: MTA 0b00111000 ; Display Initialisieren (8bit, 5*8 chars) WDPL3.ID0 0 ; Befehl ans Display (RS=0) DELAY(4200) ; Warten 4.2ms bis Display initialisiert MTA 0b00000001 ; Display Loeschen WDPL3.ID0 0 ; Befehl ans Display (RS=0) DELAY(1640) ; 1.64ms Wait bis sich Display geloescht hat MTA 0b00001111 ; Cursor an, Display ist jetzt leer mit Cursor WDPL3.ID0 0 ; Befehl ans Display (RS=0) DELAY(110) ; 110us Wait, dann hat sich das Display konfiguriert MTA 0b00000110 ; Auto-Increment-Mode, d.h.Cursor wandert WDPL3.ID0 0 ; Befehl ans Display (RS=0) DELAY(50) ; Nach 50us Wait ist der Cursor an und alles bereit ; ; Text ans Display ausgeben ; MTA Text ; Zeiger auf Text STA Index ; initialisieren loop: LDI Index ; Naechsten Buchstaben holen LDA 0 ; und Daten ans Display (RS=1) RJAZ Fin ; falls nicht 0 (das waere Ende) WDPL3.ID0 1 ; schicken. Danach INC Index ; Index erhoehen und warten... DELAY(50) ; 50us Wait rjmp loop ; Naechsten Buchstaben Fin: rjmp Fin ; Endlos-Schleife! In this DELAY is a macro defined within the assembler and consisting of a simple loop. So this is the current state! F U T U R E : The following things are still on my to-do-list: (1) The unit has got a 12bit-start/compare timer which I currently do not have access to. (2) Approx 40 of the possible bit-patterns are not valid commands now - either I do not understand their meaning yet or the microcode is somehow defective. (3) I can read data from the plugs, but I did not discover a sync mechanism: When has data completely arrived??? (4) There is still the problem of the unit freezing in accessing the upper memory half. (5) On each serial link, there seems to be an interrupt signal. I do not know how to enable the interrupts and what action they cause (I suppose they cause a jump to a certain address in memory). So thank you for reading all this junk of bad English and maybe something was interesting for you. For me the work on this unit was a hobby and real fun. I spent around one day a month on this unit and my big hope would be to G E T H A N D S O N A S E C O N D O F T H E S E "Programmer Electronic Controls" Best regards, happy computing, Erik. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 8 12:30:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:30:46 -0600 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <A6683838-D7B2-4703-AB9A-C052B9590972@neurotica.com> References: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> <45F01FE5.1050708@yahoo.co.uk> <A6683838-D7B2-4703-AB9A-C052B9590972@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F05656.1020401@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Like Zane, I prefer to have real paper catalogues rather than some >> electronic version anyway, which is making Digikey sound good... > > Mouser also sends out gigantic paper catalogs.. (lest you think the > decision is that easy!) Rats! (or possibly mice) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 8 12:32:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:32:52 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand In-Reply-To: <905D5983-8E0B-4E99-92AC-0A99247855BE@neurotica.com> References: <000401c76164$bbed8d80$0201010a@phatboy> <905D5983-8E0B-4E99-92AC-0A99247855BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F056D4.3090905@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > There's a BIG tendency amongst people on this list to insist, loudly, > that something is "not rare" or "easily obtained" because: > > - that person obtained one easily, once > - they saw one on eBay, once > - that person simply owns one > - they are, or once were, common where that person lives very nicely summarised! :) I tend to put "in my experience" qualifiers on things for those reasons - in particular geographical location tends to play a *big* part in the availability of items. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 8 12:55:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:55:32 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:10:59 -0500. <905D5983-8E0B-4E99-92AC-0A99247855BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <E1HPNm0-0007Ls-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <905D5983-8E0B-4E99-92AC-0A99247855BE at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes: > Being absolutely starved for "new to me" PDP-11 equipment for the > past five years since I moved to Florida, I'm about ready to SWIM to > New Zealand to get that 11/04 with all of its glorious RK05 drives. > Or even just the RK05 drives, for that matter! If you do and don't want the VT52, I'll buy it :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 8 13:33:47 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:33:47 -0500 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <200703081802.l28I2ASc015335@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004c01c761b8$b10ca0a0$6500a8c0@barry> Here is a list of some places where I find things: www.computergate.com www.pimfg.com www.cyberguys.com www.monoprice.com (cables) www.digikey.com www.mouser.com http://www.stanleysupplyservices.com/ (was Jensen Tools, Contact East and others) www.jameco.com www.zipzoomfly.com www.newegg.com From andy at smokebelch.org Thu Mar 8 13:48:06 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:48:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <04d4d80b5ed49543939299f0d9f14084@valleyimplants.com> References: <04d4d80b5ed49543939299f0d9f14084@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <20070308194514.K81299@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Scott Quinn wrote: > That would be difficult. OpenVMS AXP can be done (but is not convenient - > I've been keeping tabs on the Hobbyist distro and they're trying to remaster > with v8.2, but it is slow). > > v8.anything VAX would require acquisition of sources and backporting. VAX > support stopped at 7.3 (boo, hiss, and all that I suppose). > > BTW, excl. a better SSH (which can be done with Multinet or TCPware, see > www.process.com [they even have hobbyist licenses]) what are the advantages > of v8 for you? I didn't realise VAX ended with 7.3 and was hoping for a 7.3-2, had no real need for 8. I have a fairly recent (last few years IIRC) consolidated distribution and had anticipated that the current versions of various things I wanted to play with (X.400 and X.500) might require 7.3-2, but since there isn't one for VAX they can't! And can get round the ssh issue if a v1 protocol version did ship with last TCP/IP for VAX. Andrew From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Mar 8 14:06:28 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:06:28 +0000 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <45EF4F51.2070000@yahoo.co.uk> References: <m1HP3hX-000J0gC@p850ug1> <45EF4F51.2070000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <8c1f5cbc5199ea2bd2c842b4a94b873e@mac.com> Ive been hiding a sun server in the car so the missus doesnt see it!!!! On 7 Mar 2007, at 23:48, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> Be warned that if you're not careful, that hardware collection will >> take >> over your house (and any other places you can possibly store it). >> This is the voice of experience... > > You're lucky in not owning a car, Tony - mine tends to be permanently > filled with vintage bits that won't fit in the house :-) > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Mar 8 10:23:08 2007 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:23:08 +0000 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <45EFC0AC.11259.3276F9B1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> <45EFC0AC.11259.3276F9B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703081623.09004.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> what about my lovely babcock vacuum flourescent display? http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/mecb/gallery/cimga0392.html -- Mark Wickens, Mob: 07917 653012 Email: mark at wickensonline.co.uk WWW: http://wickensonline.co.uk From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:27:06 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:27:06 -0500 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45EF50F9.9010301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F0719A.9070905@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Out of interest, whereabout in the US is good (mail order) for getting > hold of tools / test gear and components? There's only a Rat Shack in > town here, which as everyone knows is utterly useless for absolutely > anything :( They're *not* cheap, but every time I've needed something quick, I've used Time Motion Tools. For something I don't need that quickly, I go through the usual electronics suppliers, e.g. Mouser Digi-Key, etc. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 8 14:34:19 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:34:19 -0700 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:27:08 +0100. <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703081741170.27398-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Message-ID: <E1HPPJb-0004zP-00@xmission.xmission.com> Awesome job, Erik! You mentioned the microcode a couple of times -- have you dumped out the contents of the microcode? Is the CPU implemented from bitslice chips or something? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 14:35:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:35:34 -0500 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <200703081623.09004.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> <45EFC0AC.11259.3276F9B1@cclist.sydex.com> <200703081623.09004.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <49308C46-A21D-44D9-B154-20065CB2FECC@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:23 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > what about my lovely babcock vacuum flourescent display? > > http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/mecb/gallery/cimga0392.html Oh that is absolutely gorgeous! Where'd you find that, and are there any more available? And that MECB clone is cool. I didn't know anyone had copied that design. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:38:39 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:38:39 -0500 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <679F7143-E42D-4719-8B30-71DA360AA36F@neurotica.com> References: <C214F040.8471%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> <003501c7610d$c8d9e220$0b01a8c0@game> <679F7143-E42D-4719-8B30-71DA360AA36F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F0744F.1070108@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 7, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>> I'll echo that experience since I'm currently faced with the prospect of >>> moving my entire collection 250 miles to where I'm now forced to live. >>> Little ol' me needs a 6 room house to put everything in since I've >>> decided >>> that because I have to move it all I'm only willing to do it once; >>> fortunately I've found a place that's big enough as long as the owner >>> is a >>> bit flexible with the rent...... >> >> So that means you are moving into a place you cannot afford just >> because of >> the collection? > > Some things really are more important than money.. Indeed. My collection is the primary reason I bought a house. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 14:40:22 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:40:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand In-Reply-To: <E1HPNm0-0007Ls-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HPNm0-0007Ls-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <268C57B0-5CDE-453C-A7DF-8FEE2977757C@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 1:55 PM, Richard wrote: >> Being absolutely starved for "new to me" PDP-11 equipment for the >> past five years since I moved to Florida, I'm about ready to SWIM to >> New Zealand to get that 11/04 with all of its glorious RK05 drives. >> Or even just the RK05 drives, for that matter! > > If you do and don't want the VT52, I'll buy it :) You're just a terminal-obsessed freak, and you know it! ;) I'm a good swimmer, but not THAT good. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 8 14:42:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:42:37 -0800 Subject: Commodore is back--sort of Message-ID: <45F004BD.31396.3380D8E0@cclist.sydex.com> from ttp://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070306-commodore-announces- new-gaming-pcs.html: "At the upcoming CeBit electronics show in Germany on March 15, a company called Commodore Gaming is scheduled to release a new line of gaming PCs for the European market. "25 years ago, Commodore launched the best selling personal computer of the late 20th Century, the C64, and defined the early computer games experience for millions of people worldwide," said Bala Keilman, CEO for Commodore Gaming. "We are privileged and excited to bring the Commodore brand back to the gaming community and mark a new chapter in its history with this exceptional machine. We're sure that it will deliver what gamers need and want." Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 8 14:46:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:46:34 -0700 Subject: Data I/O IX In-Reply-To: <BAY116-F374B334CDA51D5F687777FA37B0@phx.gbl> References: <BAY116-F374B334CDA51D5F687777FA37B0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <45F0762A.7040406@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > There is a Data I/O IX on ebay. It doesn't look like it would take > a Uni-pack. Does anyone know what PROM/EPROM types this machine will > program? Is it able to do 1702A's ? > Dwight > Or build your own ... I am reading the book "how to build your own working microcomputer" and they use a 8080, and 1708's and 2102's for memory. This is build it from scratch book. Ben alias woodelf PS has anybody ever built the computer in the book? From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:46:52 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:46:52 -0500 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <20070308194514.K81299@plum.flirble.org> References: <04d4d80b5ed49543939299f0d9f14084@valleyimplants.com> <20070308194514.K81299@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45F0763C.5030104@gmail.com> Andrew Back wrote: > I didn't realise VAX ended with 7.3 and was hoping for a 7.3-2, had no > real need for 8. I have a fairly recent (last few years IIRC) consolidated > distribution and had anticipated that the current versions of various > things I wanted to play with (X.400 and X.500) might require 7.3-2, but > since there isn't one for VAX they can't! And can get round the ssh > issue if a v1 protocol version did ship with last TCP/IP for VAX. I've used both, and I've found that Multinet performs better than the DEC TCP/IP. Peace... Sridhar From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Mar 8 14:52:18 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:52:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <45F0744F.1070108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070308205218.458A45824E@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Sridhar Ayengar > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >>> I'll echo that experience since I'm currently faced with the prospect of > >>> moving my entire collection 250 miles to where I'm now forced to live. > >>> Little ol' me needs a 6 room house to put everything in since I've > >>> decided > >>> that because I have to move it all I'm only willing to do it once; > >>> fortunately I've found a place that's big enough as long as the owner > >>> is a > >>> bit flexible with the rent...... > >> > >> So that means you are moving into a place you cannot afford just > >> because of > >> the collection? > > > > Some things really are more important than money.. > > Indeed. My collection is the primary reason I bought a house. > And reinforced the floors by adding extra supports in the basement!! :) Cheers, Bryan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 8 14:52:41 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:52:41 -0600 Subject: Multiplexing Nixies In-Reply-To: <200703081623.09004.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <000901c7604b$448e5220$0201a8c0@hal9000> <3E3A7F2A-565E-41E4-BF37-96D91CF4143F@neurotica.com> <45EFC0AC.11259.3276F9B1@cclist.sydex.com> <200703081623.09004.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F07799.10201@yahoo.co.uk> Mark Wickens wrote: > what about my lovely babcock vacuum flourescent display? > > http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/mecb/gallery/cimga0392.html Looks great :) I've got an 80-char by 2-line dot-matrix VF display which looks just the same when running - it came out of a piece of early handwriting-recognition equipment (based around a TMS9900 CPU). Sadly I've never been able to find any kind of datasheet on the thing in order to be able to go and use it in a project, but it sure would be nice. From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Mar 8 14:54:50 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:54:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Commodore is back--sort of In-Reply-To: <45F004BD.31396.3380D8E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070308205451.6C0CA583C5@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Chuck Guzis > > from ttp://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070306-commodore-announces- > new-gaming-pcs.html: > > "At the upcoming CeBit electronics show in Germany on March 15, a > company called Commodore Gaming is scheduled to release a new line of > gaming PCs for the European market. > > "25 years ago, Commodore launched the best selling personal computer > of the late 20th Century, the C64, and defined the early computer > games experience for millions of people worldwide," said Bala > Keilman, CEO for Commodore Gaming. "We are privileged and excited to > bring the Commodore brand back to the gaming community and mark a new > chapter in its history with this exceptional machine. We're sure that > it will deliver what gamers need and want." > Pfffft.. I think now I have to remove the logo from a (dead) Commodore 64 and stick it on the front of my PC... Cheers, Bryan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 14:59:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:59:53 -0500 Subject: Data I/O IX In-Reply-To: <45F0762A.7040406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <BAY116-F374B334CDA51D5F687777FA37B0@phx.gbl> <45F0762A.7040406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <FE12BD27-2489-42D1-9EDE-CE1A8B48E9BA@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 3:46 PM, woodelf wrote: >> program? Is it able to do 1702A's ? >> Dwight > Or build your own ... I am reading the book > "how to build your own working microcomputer" and they use > a 8080, and 1708's and 2102's for memory. > This is build it from scratch book. > Ben alias woodelf > PS has anybody ever built the computer in the book? I've not built the computer, but I am considering it. I obtained a copy of the book for a few dollars on eBay last summer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 15:07:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:07:03 -0500 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <20070308205218.458A45824E@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070308205218.458A45824E@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <45F07AF7.8020604@gmail.com> Bryan Pope wrote: >>>>> I'll echo that experience since I'm currently faced with the prospect of >>>>> moving my entire collection 250 miles to where I'm now forced to live. >>>>> Little ol' me needs a 6 room house to put everything in since I've >>>>> decided >>>>> that because I have to move it all I'm only willing to do it once; >>>>> fortunately I've found a place that's big enough as long as the owner >>>>> is a >>>>> bit flexible with the rent...... >>>> So that means you are moving into a place you cannot afford just >>>> because of >>>> the collection? >>> Some things really are more important than money.. >> Indeed. My collection is the primary reason I bought a house. >> > > And reinforced the floors by adding extra supports in the basement!! :) *ahem* Yes. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 15:08:26 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:08:26 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On Mar 8, 2007, at 1:55 PM, Richard wrote: > > If you do and don't want the VT52, I'll buy it :) > > You're just a terminal-obsessed freak, and you know it! ;) For stuff of the era, the VT-52 is a very handy terminal. I don't recall my results with a VT100 or CiTOH-101 (clone), but I was *not* able to use the VTEDIT macro under OS/8 with a VT220 in VT52 emulation mode. The emulation just wasn't good enough. I suppose one could find an open-source terminal program and ensure the VT-52 emulation was up to snuff, but for a plug-it-in-and-get-to-work solution, for pre-VT52 software, I recommend a real VT52. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 8 15:09:37 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:09:37 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:40:22 -0500. <268C57B0-5CDE-453C-A7DF-8FEE2977757C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <E1HPPrl-0007fy-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <268C57B0-5CDE-453C-A7DF-8FEE2977757C at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes: > > If you do and don't want the VT52, I'll buy it :) > > You're just a terminal-obsessed freak, and you know it! ;) I've had my eye out for a VT52 for quite a while now... > I'm a good swimmer, but not THAT good. Yeah, if that were offered anywhere in the US, I'd be seriously considering it. Then again, so would probably a bunch of other people from this list just bidding against me :-). I wonder what it would take to arrange a 3rd party shipper? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 8 15:10:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:10:52 -0700 Subject: Commodore is back--sort of In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:54:50 -0500. <20070308205451.6C0CA583C5@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <E1HPPsy-0006Us-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <20070308205451.6C0CA583C5 at mail.wordstock.com>, bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) writes: > Pfffft.. I think now I have to remove the logo from a (dead) > Commodore 64 and stick it on the front of my PC... Yeah, I think its too late to bring that zombie back to life. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 15:10:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:10:38 -0500 Subject: Commodore is back--sort of In-Reply-To: <20070308205451.6C0CA583C5@mail.wordstock.com> References: <45F004BD.31396.3380D8E0@cclist.sydex.com> <20070308205451.6C0CA583C5@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081310m630b3883td391535e5548a4f6@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, Bryan Pope <bpope at wordstock.com> wrote: > Pfffft.. I think now I have to remove the logo from a (dead) > Commodore 64 and stick it on the front of my PC... So how many kids are going to see the new Commodore gaming PCs and think that the Commodore 64 must have a 64-bit processor inside? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 8 15:21:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:21:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <20070308205218.458A45824E@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070308205218.458A45824E@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20070308132115.G54196@shell.lmi.net> > > Indeed. My collection is the primary reason I bought a house. > > And reinforced the floors by adding extra supports in the basement!! :) the classiccmp version of case-modding From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 8 15:24:00 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:24:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081323280.27921@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/8/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > > On Mar 8, 2007, at 1:55 PM, Richard wrote: > > > If you do and don't want the VT52, I'll buy it :) > > > > You're just a terminal-obsessed freak, and you know it! ;) > > For stuff of the era, the VT-52 is a very handy terminal. I don't > recall my results with a VT100 or CiTOH-101 (clone), but I was *not* > able to use the VTEDIT macro under OS/8 with a VT220 in VT52 emulation > mode. The emulation just wasn't good enough. I suppose one could > find an open-source terminal program and ensure the VT-52 emulation > was up to snuff, but for a plug-it-in-and-get-to-work solution, for > pre-VT52 software, I recommend a real VT52. Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't seen one on Ebay for at least three years. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 15:26:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:26:18 -0500 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <20070308132115.G54196@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070308205218.458A45824E@mail.wordstock.com> <20070308132115.G54196@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081326r272bb5e8j69626d02eaae7cf4@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > > > Indeed. My collection is the primary reason I bought a house. > > > > And reinforced the floors by adding extra supports in the basement!! :) > > the classiccmp version of case-modding But does the house have external blinkenlights? I wired my place with X-10 w/CP-290 and a C-64 driving it, so I guess I can say "yes". :-) -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 8 15:27:15 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:27:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 08, 2007 04:08:26 PM Message-ID: <200703082127.l28LRFZd015409@onyx.spiritone.com> > For stuff of the era, the VT-52 is a very handy terminal. I don't > recall my results with a VT100 or CiTOH-101 (clone), but I was *not* > able to use the VTEDIT macro under OS/8 with a VT220 in VT52 emulation > mode. The emulation just wasn't good enough. I suppose one could > find an open-source terminal program and ensure the VT-52 emulation > was up to snuff, but for a plug-it-in-and-get-to-work solution, for > pre-VT52 software, I recommend a real VT52. > > -ethan Shoot, finding a terminal program whose VT100 (or better) emulation is "up to snuff" is hard enough! Especially if you're running anything other than windows. I make do with X-Terms with their keys remapped since I don't have room to have a pair of VT420's setup. :^( Zane From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 8 15:28:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:28:20 -0600 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <20070308132115.G54196@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070308205218.458A45824E@mail.wordstock.com> <20070308132115.G54196@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45F07FF4.7040505@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Indeed. My collection is the primary reason I bought a house. >> And reinforced the floors by adding extra supports in the basement!! :) > > the classiccmp version of case-modding ... except that if you leave things alone, the case mods itself. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 15:29:52 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:29:52 -0800 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <004c01c761b8$b10ca0a0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <200703081802.l28I2ASc015335@dewey.classiccmp.org> <004c01c761b8$b10ca0a0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703081329m75e82b2erecc2e6e11b725a90@mail.gmail.com> Here's a couple more for old / obsolete chips: http://www.bgmicro.com/ http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 8 15:32:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:32:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore is back--sort of In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081310m630b3883td391535e5548a4f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F004BD.31396.3380D8E0@cclist.sydex.com> <20070308205451.6C0CA583C5@mail.wordstock.com> <f4eb766f0703081310m630b3883td391535e5548a4f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070308133211.G54196@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So how many kids are going to see the new Commodore gaming PCs and > think that the Commodore 64 must have a 64-bit processor inside? That should promote interest in the 128! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 8 15:33:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:33:14 -0700 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:24:00 -0800. <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081323280.27921@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <E1HPQEc-0002a8-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081323280.27921 at helios.cs.csubak.edu>, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> writes: > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't seen one on Ebay for at > least three years. Ditto. It was one of the first ebay searches that I created. Occasionally they show up in some NASA auctions, but you have to buy 15 pallets of crap to get the one VT52 so I haven't bit. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 15:36:55 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:36:55 -0500 Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081326r272bb5e8j69626d02eaae7cf4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070308205218.458A45824E@mail.wordstock.com> <20070308132115.G54196@shell.lmi.net> <f4eb766f0703081326r272bb5e8j69626d02eaae7cf4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F081F7.5040604@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/8/07, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: >> > > Indeed. My collection is the primary reason I bought a house. >> > >> > And reinforced the floors by adding extra supports in the basement!! :) >> >> the classiccmp version of case-modding > > But does the house have external blinkenlights? I wired my place with > X-10 w/CP-290 and a C-64 driving it, so I guess I can say "yes". :-) Some years ago Dave McGuire and I were discussing the possibility of putting an analog bandwidth-utilization meter on the roof of a house. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 8 15:44:23 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:44:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand In-Reply-To: <268C57B0-5CDE-453C-A7DF-8FEE2977757C@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Mar 8, 7 03:40:22 pm" Message-ID: <200703082144.l28LiNsf018592@floodgap.com> > > If you do and don't want the VT52, I'll buy it :) > > You're just a terminal-obsessed freak, and you know it! ;) s/terminal-obsessed// HTH, HAND. :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail. -- Gore Vidal --------------- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 8 15:49:02 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:49:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <E1HPQEc-0002a8-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <693329.51755.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> writes: > > > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't > seen one on Ebay for at > > least three years. > I have never seen one on eBay - and I have looked often. Found a lot of other things that are named VT52 though... -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 8 15:59:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:59:03 -0800 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <693329.51755.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <E1HPQEc-0002a8-00@xmission.xmission.com>, <693329.51755.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45F016A7.30710.33C6D3B3@cclist.sydex.com> David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> writes: > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't seen one on Ebay for > at least three years. At the expense of looking stupid (again), why not use one of the many VT-100/VT-220-type teminals that also have a VT-52 mode? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 16:03:21 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:03:21 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <200703082127.l28LRFZd015409@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> <200703082127.l28LRFZd015409@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081403s7bfbd689t86b9cf9ca7553335@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > For stuff of the era, the VT-52 is a very handy terminal... I was *not* > > able to use the VTEDIT macro under OS/8 with a VT220 in VT52 emulation > > mode. The emulation just wasn't good enough. I suppose one could > > find an open-source terminal program and ensure the VT-52 emulation > > was up to snuff... > > Shoot, finding a terminal program whose VT100 (or better) emulation is "up > to snuff" is hard enough! I implied, but didn't state, that if it weren't good enough, one could fix the source so that it _was_ good enough (thus the "open source" vs a ready-to-run-closed-binary). > Especially if you're running anything other than > windows. I make do with X-Terms with their keys remapped since I don't have > room to have a pair of VT420's setup. :^( For VT100-compatible work, it's not _too_ hard to set up an emulation environment that handles 99% of what's thrown at it (vttest is a good way to see how your emulator _really_ behaves). If you need double-high/double-wide or flashing chars, etc., it's harder to find a good emulator, but unless you are recreating some ancient UI (like the old "watcher" program at South Pole that used to run on a VT420 or older, stuck in a hole in the wall in the galley), there's little call these days for the extended features of the VT100 series. -ethan > Zane > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 16:05:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:05:00 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <45F016A7.30710.33C6D3B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <E1HPQEc-0002a8-00@xmission.xmission.com> <693329.51755.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> <45F016A7.30710.33C6D3B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081405k2233b4e6q8c7d82f3728b30d2@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> writes: > > > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't seen one on Ebay for > > at least three years. > > At the expense of looking stupid (again), why not use one of the many > VT-100/VT-220-type teminals that also have a VT-52 mode? Dunnou about David's needs, but for my own (VTEDIT under OS/8), emulation within a more modern dumb terminal is rarely accurate enough. If you just want approximate emulation, lots of DEC terminals and DEC-compatible terminals do offer VT-52 emulation, but I've only tested and rejected the emulation in the VT220. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 16:10:14 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:10:14 -0800 Subject: Chi Corp. / Computer Logics PCTD3 and PCTD16 Pertec-interface Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703081410k6cc5d6e3tc355e7a6bf0f04b6@mail.gmail.com> Pulled this out of archives: > Chuck Guzis cclist at sydex.com > Wed Nov 30 01:06:31 CST 2005 > > I've got both Chi Corp./Computer Logics PCTD3 and PCTD16 Pertec-interface > tape controlers. What I don't have is a clue as to how to drive them. > > Normally, this wouldn't be a problem that running down traces and some > pencil and paper work wouldn't cure. But, other than for a couple of > lines, much of the logic for these cards is hidden inside an early Xilinx > FPGA. Thus far, my "pork poking" hasn't given up any information. > > So, I'm wondering if anyone has any information on these beasts or perhaps > has hung onto the TDRIVER.EXE or API.EXE files. I'm not interested in > using the files, but rather want to use them to give up some clues on how > that blasted FPGA is set up. > > Thanks, > Chuck > Do you still have a PCTD16? I acquired one not too long ago and have it cabled up to a Fujistu 2444AC. I'll have to take another look at the card. I don't remember seeing anything that looked more complicated that 16-pin DIPs. Nothing that clearly stood out as an FPGA. Luckily it was acquired inside a PC with Chi API.EXE and Outright on the MS-DOS boot drive, along with a small manual with the programming interface for the API.EXE TSR. No sign of TDRIVER.EXE. It didn't take too much to port the 2.11BSD maketape.c program (http://www.tribug.org/pub/tuhs/PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/) to an MS-DOS application using the API.EXE TSR interface. Last night I created a 2.11BSD installation tape using the PCTD16, then connected the 2444AC to a QT13 (using a pair of Pertec cables I built up myself) and finally got 2.11BSD installed and booting up on my 11/73. -Glen From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 16:16:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:16:50 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081323280.27921@helios.cs.csubak.edu> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081323280.27921@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081416l4928f0fv5d75f3ba02050b5@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote: > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't seen one on Ebay for at > least three years. When I was buying them, it was from DEC resellers for about $35-$50 each, plus shipping. That was about 20 years ago. Haven't had to buy once since. Never looked on eBay. These days, real VT52s are a bit thin on the ground. The aforementioned one in NZ is the first one I've seen available in the wild in years. Perhaps someone could take notice of the dearth of 1970s terminals and haul some out to a VCF this year? If they aren't showing up on eBay, I'd wager that there aren't that many floating around looking for a new home. If external appearance is important (i.e., _real_ hardware), then seekers may have a long wait between opportunities. If internal functionality is the primary importance, then it wouldn't be that hard to "build a better emulator". Given that VT100s use an 8-bit microprocessor (8080?), and that VT52s are discrete TTL (a couple square feet of it!), the problem is of known complexity... one just needs to couple some form of hardware to a display and keyboard, whether it's a microprocessor or an FPGA or what. It's a lot of work to build a dumb terminal from scratch, bugs and side-effects of historical examples being what they are, but the further we get from the era of dumb terminals, the harder it will become to locate examples of the originals, making an _accurate_ emulation more practical. That having been said, best of luck on your VT52 searches. It was a bit of a beast, and back in the day, I think most of us were glad to upgrade to VT100s, but for a number of years, the VT-52 was _the_ terminal to have on ones desk. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 16:22:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:22:19 -0500 Subject: Commodore is back--sort of In-Reply-To: <20070308133211.G54196@shell.lmi.net> References: <45F004BD.31396.3380D8E0@cclist.sydex.com> <20070308205451.6C0CA583C5@mail.wordstock.com> <f4eb766f0703081310m630b3883td391535e5548a4f6@mail.gmail.com> <20070308133211.G54196@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081422t1d149e52qc1b0c4188b3fcb29@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > So how many kids are going to see the new Commodore gaming PCs and > > think that the Commodore 64 must have a 64-bit processor inside? > > That should promote interest in the 128! coffee -> laptop. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 16:31:18 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:31:18 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081405k2233b4e6q8c7d82f3728b30d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1HPQEc-0002a8-00@xmission.xmission.com> <693329.51755.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> <45F016A7.30710.33C6D3B3@cclist.sydex.com> <f4eb766f0703081405k2233b4e6q8c7d82f3728b30d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2643CA42-619D-4FC8-9758-C43CFF7455A4@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't seen one on >> Ebay for >> > at least three years. >> >> At the expense of looking stupid (again), why not use one of the many >> VT-100/VT-220-type teminals that also have a VT-52 mode? > > Dunnou about David's needs, but for my own (VTEDIT under OS/8), > emulation within a more modern dumb terminal is rarely accurate > enough. If you just want approximate emulation, lots of DEC terminals > and DEC-compatible terminals do offer VT-52 emulation, but I've only > tested and rejected the emulation in the VT220. Can you give us (well, me) a brief overview of VTEDIT and how to get it running, or perhaps point me to a reference? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 8 16:41:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:41:15 -0700 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:16:50 -0500. <f4eb766f0703081416l4928f0fv5d75f3ba02050b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1HPRIR-0000K1-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <f4eb766f0703081416l4928f0fv5d75f3ba02050b5 at mail.gmail.com>, "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > Perhaps someone could take notice of the dearth of 1970s terminals and > haul some out to a VCF this year? Working on it, but don't know how I would haul them out there on any reasonable budget. I'm talking with Sellam, but appears *I* have more interesting terminals than he does! > That having been said, best of luck on your VT52 searches. It was a > bit of a beast, and back in the day, I think most of us were glad to > upgrade to VT100s, but for a number of years, the VT-52 was _the_ > terminal to have on ones desk. I remember seeing one in 1979/1980 and the bell was described to me as "grinding the gears on a 1952 Chevy" :-). Even bona-fide VT100s are scarce. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 16:49:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:49:00 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <E1HPRIR-0000K1-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <f4eb766f0703081416l4928f0fv5d75f3ba02050b5@mail.gmail.com> <E1HPRIR-0000K1-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081449yd003e0fx6e8b5b431ccfb03a@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > I remember seeing one in 1979/1980 and the bell was described to me as > "grinding the gears on a 1952 Chevy" :-). Yep... a little flappy relay thing - "grating" comes to mind. Sort of a mechanical version of a "raspberry". > Even bona-fide VT100s are scarce. True. I haven't had to look for any in years and years, but none have floated past - just the occasional VT320 or VT420. -ethan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Mar 8 17:24:25 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:24:25 -0800 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703081741170.27398-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> References: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703081741170.27398-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Message-ID: <200703081524.25815.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Erik, On Thursday 08 March 2007 10:27, Erik Baigar wrote: > Dear vintage computing fans, --snip-- > So thank you for reading all this junk of bad English and > maybe something was interesting for you. For me the work on > this unit was a hobby and real fun. I spent around one day a > month on this unit and my big hope would be to > > G E T H A N D S O N A S E C O N D > > O F T H E S E "Programmer Electronic Controls" > Terrific job! I can only imagine the hours and and incredible perseverance this project required. Simply outstanding. Sure hope you can find unit #2... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 8 17:26:09 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:26:09 -0600 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081403s7bfbd689t86b9cf9ca7553335@mail.gmail.co m> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> <200703082127.l28LRFZd015409@onyx.spiritone.com> <f4eb766f0703081403s7bfbd689t86b9cf9ca7553335@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070308172436.07bd3be0@mail> At 04:03 PM 3/8/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >For VT100-compatible work, it's not _too_ hard to set up an emulation >environment that handles 99% of what's thrown at it (vttest is a good >way to see how your emulator _really_ behaves). If you need >double-high/double-wide or flashing chars, etc., I've wondered if anyone ever developed an emulator based on an emulation of the hardware and ROM inside the terminal. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 8 17:33:25 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:33:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081403s7bfbd689t86b9cf9ca7553335@mail.gmail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 08, 2007 05:03:21 PM Message-ID: <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Especially if you're running anything other than > > windows. I make do with X-Terms with their keys remapped since I don't have > > room to have a pair of VT420's setup. :^( > > For VT100-compatible work, it's not _too_ hard to set up an emulation > environment that handles 99% of what's thrown at it (vttest is a good > way to see how your emulator _really_ behaves). If you need > double-high/double-wide or flashing chars, etc., it's harder to find a > good emulator, but unless you are recreating some ancient UI (like the > old "watcher" program at South Pole that used to run on a VT420 or > older, stuck in a hole in the wall in the galley), there's little call > these days for the extended features of the VT100 series. Actually the Double-Height/Double Width is one of my main problems, flashing less so. IIRC, once I upgrade to Mac OS X 10.4.8 (I'm on 10.3.9), this will be at least partially taken care of. This isn't as much of a show stopper for me though as the application keypad not working right. I make heavy use of the keypad, and can't live without it. I would like to be able to use all of the function keys. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 17:33:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:33:39 -0600 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070308172436.07bd3be0@mail> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> <200703082127.l28LRFZd015409@onyx.spiritone.com> <f4eb766f0703081403s7bfbd689t86b9cf9ca7553335@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070308172436.07bd3be0@mail> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081533t3e8c1214x79848f3192791bf@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote: > I've wondered if anyone ever developed an emulator based > on an emulation of the hardware and ROM inside the terminal. I've never seen one, but given how well VT100s are documented, it shouldn't be any more difficult than anything already done in MAME (there being a graphical component to the output). It wouldn't work for the VT-52, but for the VT220 or VT100, it might be just the thing. -ethan From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 17:43:37 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:43:37 +0000 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070308172436.07bd3be0@mail> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> <200703082127.l28LRFZd015409@onyx.spiritone.com> <f4eb766f0703081403s7bfbd689t86b9cf9ca7553335@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070308172436.07bd3be0@mail> Message-ID: <45F09FA9.8000601@frixxon.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > > I've wondered if anyone ever developed an emulator based > on an emulation of the hardware and ROM inside the terminal. I started this for the VT320, many years ago. I wrote an emulator for the 8051 and started running the VT320's ROM. It was fascinating, having to learn about I2C and trying to pass the terminal's self tests! I had to put a VT320 on a bench and prod it with an oscilloscope to determine the video timing because I was determined not to NOP out bits of the code that didn't run successfully. Unfortunately, I was clumsy and broke the tube while doing it -- the first and last time I've had to dive under a bench when hearing the rattling of a re-filling CRT! There's probably a (er, another) post in the archives from me on this embarrassing subject. I have two VT52s in need of some TLC and new owners if someone in the UK fancies a project and can collect them from Crawley, W. Sussex. Personal "challenges" prevent me from doing any classic computing for the forseeable future. As far as accurate emulation of the VT100 and up goes -- I supplied some patches to xterm a while back to improve its coverage of error cases, based on the detailed state machine documented at my site, but I think most of the patches have been reverted since, because many other programs rely on errors in the original emulation. Ho hum. I would love to know why any of DEC's VT100-and-up terminals wouldn't have decent VT52 emulation -- I've never encountered any flaws other than those in the VT420. -- Paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 17:09:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:09:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <45EEFA2A.20301.2F6F8EED@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 7, 7 05:45:14 pm Message-ID: <m1HPRjk-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > On 8 Mar 2007 at 0:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Well, I've said many times the most important piece of test gear is not a > > 'scope or multimeter, it's that thing between your ears. Your call :-) > > That reminds me--has anyone thought to clone the HP Logic Dart? I once saw it listed in a catalague as made by Fluke, but that might well have been a misprint. > There have been numerous times when I've thought one would really be > handy. I bought one when it was current, and I love it. For those who've never used one, it's a handheld instrument whcih combines a continuity/diode tester, a 3-channel 100MHx logic analuyser and something called 'investigate mode'. The last is the most useful of the lot. You have one probe and a ground lead. Touch the probe on a point in the circuit, the instrument displays the average voltage at that point (good for checking PSUs), the frequency (counting theshold crossings per second, I guess), for checking the master clock, and has a couple of LEDs that act as a normal logic probe. Hit a button and it records the logic-level waveform (high/low/undefined) at that point. It's that last part that makes it much more useful than a normal logic probe. For example, I had a 9820 calculator on the bench, this is a bit-serial design. Running a logic probe along the outputs of the M (memory address) register, which is a 16 bit shift register made up of 4 off 4 bit chips showed that the top 4 bits were changing, all the rest were stuck low (it's loaded from the MSB end). OK, obvious, change the snecond-from-top chip... Alas the fault was still there. The LogicDart showed me that the timing of the outputs of the top chip was crazy with pulse widths equal to half the clock frequency. Therefore the second-from-top chip was working correctly, its input was always low on at the active clock edge. Changed the top chip. the machine sprang to life. What I'll do when the LogicDart fails I don't know. There's nothing available now that comes close to its functionality and convenience. There never was a sercvice manual available for it, and most of the logic is inside 2 ASICs anyway (therre's also an 80188 CPU, EPROM, RAM, display driver and a lot oa anloge stuff round the front end and PSU). Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 17:52:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:52:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <E1HPRIR-0000K1-00@xmission.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Mar 8, 7 03:41:15 pm Message-ID: <m1HPSPW-000J1GC@p850ug1> > I remember seeing one in 1979/1980 and the bell was described to me as > "grinding the gears on a 1952 Chevy" :-). That 'Bell', is astually a relay that's driven by a square-wave signal from the logic (AFAIK it doesn't use the break contact on the relay to make a buzzer). The same relay, fed with a pulse generates the keyclick. > Even bona-fide VT100s are scarce. There are 3 or 4 here, along with a VT105. I don't have a VT52, though. I do have a VT55, does that count ? :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 17:13:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:13:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <200703080151.l281pqfa027829@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 7, 7 05:51:52 pm Message-ID: <m1HPRoB-000J11C@p850ug1> > In spite of my "complaint" about getting the catalogs, I'd much rather thumb > through the paper copy. I just don't have a use at the moment for the pair So would I. Unfortunately the big componnet suppliers in the UK (RS Components and Farnell) will not supply their catalogues to hobbyists at any price (they will take orders placed on their web site). I find these web sites very annoying to use. An example : I need a plug and socket pair, and this particular connecotr comes as plug and socket shells, backshells (hood) and crimp pins, all as sepaate parts. I manage to find one part, say the plug shell, on the website. There's no obvious way to find all the related parts (heck, in some cases crimp pins and solder pins for the same sereis of conenctors are in wildly different parts of the site). Or I find one value of reisstor that I need, there's no obvious way to find other valuse in the same series. And so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 17:33:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:33:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New subscriber In-Reply-To: <45F016D5.2010603@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 8, 7 07:59:49 am Message-ID: <m1HPS7E-000J1EC@p850ug1> > > I have a CBM 8032 that's probably the start of all my vintage madness ;-) > > Have we ever had a "what got you started" thread? We have now :-) > > Probably :-) I think i've posted my story before, but for the benefit of people who joined the list after I last posted it, here goes... 21 years ago (Eeek, was it really that long ago), I was building a homebrew computer. Building as in from chips, not from PCBs... And I needed a keyboard. This was before the days of cheap PC clone keyboards, at .least in the UK, bit I saw an advert in 'Wireless World' magazine for a sale of electronic equipment and listed were 'ASCII encoded keyboards' for, I think, \pounds 4.00 each. Even better, it was in Cambridge where I was studying at the time. So I went a long. And bought a keyboard. But also there was a Philips P850 minicomputer, priced at the scrap metal value (or close to it) -- \pounds 25.00. Well, it looked beautiful with a nice lights-and-switches panel, and even had a service manual with it. So I bought it, and somehow got it back to my room. After playing with it a bit, and talking to some eccentric friends, we realised that unless somebody did something then 20 years or more of computer history was going to vanish. At that time old computers were not collectible, and museums only bothered with things like bits of the Babbage engines (important, sure, but not the whole story). So we did something. And I've been colelcting bits of computers ever since... -tony From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 8 17:57:13 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:57:13 -0800 Subject: 14" drives Message-ID: <45F0A2D9.BCB9AB52@rain.org> Someone I know *had* some 14" drives but the only thing I saw left were two 14" platters and an aluminum casing. It sounded like the complete unit was about 24" or so square and maybe 18" high. Rack mount? I don't know. First, does this *really* vague description describe anything useful? Second, there was half an aluminum casing left; is this worthwhile saving? He is going to see if there are any more drives left, but I am kind of curious if it is worth the effort. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 8 17:26:09 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:26:09 -0600 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081403s7bfbd689t86b9cf9ca7553335@mail.gmail.co m> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> <200703082127.l28LRFZd015409@onyx.spiritone.com> <f4eb766f0703081403s7bfbd689t86b9cf9ca7553335@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070308172436.07bd3be0@mail> At 04:03 PM 3/8/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >For VT100-compatible work, it's not _too_ hard to set up an emulation >environment that handles 99% of what's thrown at it (vttest is a good >way to see how your emulator _really_ behaves). If you need >double-high/double-wide or flashing chars, etc., I've wondered if anyone ever developed an emulator based on an emulation of the hardware and ROM inside the terminal. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 18:07:46 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:07:46 -0600 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <f4eb766f0703081403s7bfbd689t86b9cf9ca7553335@mail.gmail.com> <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703081607y28586675tf5344f34b786feb8@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: I wrote: > > For VT100-compatible work, it's not _too_ hard to set up an emulation > > environment that handles 99% of what's thrown at it... If you need > > double-high/double-wide or flashing chars, etc., it's harder... > > Actually the Double-Height/Double Width is one of my main problems, flashing > less so. IIRC, once I upgrade to Mac OS X 10.4.8 (I'm on 10.3.9), this will > be at least partially taken care of. This isn't as much of a show stopper > for me though as the application keypad not working right. I make heavy use > of the keypad, and can't live without it. I would like to be able to use > all of the function keys. Ah, yes... I forgot about the keypad... that's much more of an emulation issue for most users than double-high/double-wide. EDT, WPS, etc... all heavily dependent on specific keys for specific functions. Using a modern keyboard with a dumb terminal emulated in modern hardware (i.e. - microcontroller or FPGA), might prove to be interesting, since real VT100 keyboards are somewhat difficult to find, compared to, say, LK201s, which should still be relatively plentiful (and not difficult to interface to). -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 8 18:25:38 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:25:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: 14" drives In-Reply-To: <45F0A2D9.BCB9AB52@rain.org> Message-ID: <864807.87669.qm@web52707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marvin Johnston <marvin at rain.org> wrote: > > Someone I know *had* some 14" drives but the only > thing I saw left were two 14" > platters and an aluminum casing. It sounded like the > complete unit was about 24" > or so square and maybe 18" high. Rack mount? I don't > know. > > First, does this *really* vague description describe > anything useful? Second, > there was half an aluminum casing left; is this > worthwhile saving? > > He is going to see if there are any more drives > left, but I am kind of curious > if it is worth the effort. > I'd say that it would definitely be worth saving. I've got a 14" platter drive that I use on one of my machines, a Century Data Systems 300mb drive. It's a 19" rack mount drive, about 24" deep and a foot tall. Definitely a nice piece of hardware and definintely something useful - It's one of the very few functional SMD interface hard drives I have. A lot of old iron needs these old drives, and I have had a real hard time finding them. They are always worth saving, even if nonfunctional. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 8 18:50:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:50:11 -0800 Subject: Chi Corp. / Computer Logics PCTD3 and PCTD16 Pertec-interface In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703081410k6cc5d6e3tc355e7a6bf0f04b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703081410k6cc5d6e3tc355e7a6bf0f04b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F03EC3.14934.3463803B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2007 at 14:10, Glen Slick wrote: >> Do you still have a PCTD16? I acquired one not too long ago and have > it cabled up to a Fujistu 2444AC. I'll have to take another look at > the card. I don't remember seeing anything that looked more > complicated that 16-pin DIPs. Nothing that clearly stood out as an > FPGA. > > Luckily it was acquired inside a PC with Chi API.EXE and Outright on > the MS-DOS boot drive, along with a small manual with the programming > interface for the API.EXE TSR. No sign of TDRIVER.EXE. I still have the PCTD16. Yeah, you're right--it's got a bunch of PALs (16L8) but no FPGA like the PCTD3 (that needs to have firmware downloaded from the host and is slow as molasses anyway). I'd love to see a copy of the API software for the PCTD16, alone with whatever docs you have. Chi is absolutely no help on this stuff. I'm even willing to reverse-engineer the software and work up a x386 driver for Linux or (gasp!) even Windoze XP/2K. I've already made up a cable adapter with 2 50-pin male ribbon headers on a small board attached to the 68-pin D-sub, so I'm ready to go. Thanks, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 8 18:46:34 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:46:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200703090100.UAA21877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> [...VT-xxx emulation...] >> For VT100-compatible work, it's not _too_ hard to set up an >> emulation environment that handles 99% of what's thrown at it >> (vttest is a good way to see how your emulator _really_ behaves). It aws, once upon a time. But these days, it uses ./configure, which is a security nightmare waiting to happen. When I wrote to the author about that, the reaction I got back was basically "tough" - I suppose he feels that his convenience outweighs the security of our systems. >> If you need double-high/double-wide or flashing chars, etc., it's >> harder to find a good emulator, [...] > Actually the Double-Height/Double Width is one of my main problems, > flashing less so. Perhaps it's time to mention mterm again. It's my terminal emulator for X, and it has a "decansi" emnuation that's X3.64 with some DEC extensions. decansi mode running at 80x24 (or 132x24 - it will try to resize its window if you send the column-count change sequence) is a pretty good VT-100 emulator. I mention it here because it does DH and/or DW (including single-width double-height, which VT-100s don't do). It's slow the first time you use it, because it has to take the character glyphs and magnify them, but once a character is magnified, that character is tolerably fast. > This isn't as much of a show stopper for me though as the application > keypad not working right. I make heavy use of the keypad, and can't > live without it. I would like to be able to use all of the function > keys. If your keyboard has the keys, and you have them mapped to the correct KeySyms, I think mterm doing decansi emulation gets them right. If you find any respect in which it doesn't, I consider it a bug (though I may reclassify it as "misfeature" if it proves too hard to fix :-). See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/mterm.src/ for them as wants. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 8 19:04:09 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:04:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081607y28586675tf5344f34b786feb8@mail.gmail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 08, 2007 06:07:46 PM Message-ID: <200703090104.l29149ig020896@onyx.spiritone.com> > Ah, yes... I forgot about the keypad... that's much more of an > emulation issue for most users than double-high/double-wide. EDT, > WPS, etc... all heavily dependent on specific keys for specific > functions. The keypad emulation is the very first thing I check when trying out a new emulator. Then I look at double-high/double-wide. If I could find one that handled both of those things *AND* screen display on my Mac properly, and didn't require a mortgage, I think I'd pass out from shock. > Using a modern keyboard with a dumb terminal emulated in modern > hardware (i.e. - microcontroller or FPGA), might prove to be > interesting, since real VT100 keyboards are somewhat difficult to > find, compared to, say, LK201s, which should still be relatively > plentiful (and not difficult to interface to). My favorite is the LK401, it's fragile, but I like its feel, even if it is a bit mushy for my tastes. But then my favorite terminal is the VT420, though I'm running the one on my PDP-11 with a LK201 keyboard. I'd like to pick up a VT525, with a good keyboard (I assume it would be a LK450 or some such). The VT525 looks like a DEC Multia, can use a PS/2 keyboard, and will work with at least some LCD panels. Both Compaq and HP have released some "thin-client" terminals running some form of WinCE. They look rather interesting, but I don't know how good the terminal emulation is. Last I checked, you can still buy VT520's from Boundless (they bought DEC's terminal business). Zane From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 8 19:05:41 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:05:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: raster laser? Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to thinking. How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with the speed and accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? The upshot? Take an old terminal with nasty screen burn. Cut off the gun end of the bottle, clean off the old phosphor. Apply new phosphor of some kind, then mount the laser rasteriser where the old gun was. Projecting raster images on the side of a building would be fun too. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 8 19:15:37 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:15:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <179775.33418.qm@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote: > > Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This > got me to thinking. > How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep > with the speed and > accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? The upshot? > Take an old terminal > with nasty screen burn. Cut off the gun end of the > bottle, clean off the > old phosphor. Apply new phosphor of some kind, then > mount the laser > rasteriser where the old gun was. Projecting raster > images on the side of > a building would be fun too. That would be pretty cool. The easy part would be to pulse the laser with the video signal. I have no idea how one would be able to conveniently scan the laser across any kind of surface. The electron gun in a CRT is magnetically deflected. A laser, being totally optic, would neesd to be mechanically or reflectively deflected. Also, due to the nasty "laser-ness" of a laser, I definitely wouldn't want to be in front of a computer terminal retrofitted with a laser diode. For projection, however, it would be a neat hack. You'd have to devise some sort of system of spinning mirrors, like in the scanner of a laser printer. Maybe a spinning mirror and a spinning lens... -Ian From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 8 19:27:00 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:27:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> from "David Griffith" at Mar 08, 2007 05:05:41 PM Message-ID: <200703090127.l291R1rv021395@onyx.spiritone.com> > rasteriser where the old gun was. Projecting raster images on the side of > a building would be fun too. I must admit, I rather like the idea of projecting a terminal screen onto a wall... A 80x25 terminal that is 5' or wider could be fun! :^) Then hook it up to a PDP-11 and play Pacman on it. :^) For some strange reason kids don't seem to be impressed by running a Pacman clone on a PDP-11 and displaying it on a VT420. But if you project it on the side of a large building... :^) Zane From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 8 19:16:51 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:16:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <200703090127.UAA22175@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to > thinking. How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with > the speed and accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? Quite easy. Barcode scanners do it regularly in one dimension; you just need to add another, much slower, scan in the other dimension.... How hard would it be to do it affordably, safely, etc? That's another question. Note that horizontal scan frequences in the high tens of KHz are common; you'll have to be scanning something like that fast on the "fast" axis. Given (say) a 20-faced mirror spinner (which might be good enough, though it might prove not linear enough), a scan rate of 80KHz (what the display I'm using right now is doing) means this thing's RPM would be 80,000 (scans/sec) * 60 (sec/min) / 20 (scans/rev) = 240,000. 240K RPM is pretty bleedin' fast! Perhaps you can find a video card that can do something like 1024x768 at 20? Most video cards are concerned with achieving high, not low, refresh rates.... Does anyone know of any electrically controlled optical deflection technology that has sub-microsecond reaction times? I seem to recall seeing that some crystals change their refractive index with applied voltage; if I'm not misremembering, and if they change fast enough, that might do. I'd actually prefer to use such a thing not as a raster display, but as a vector display - hence the interest in electrically deflecting the beam. I'd like to play vector videogames on a big white wall - either classic games under something like MAME, or my own.... > The upshot? Take an old terminal with nasty screen burn. Cut off > the gun end of the bottle, clean off the old phosphor. Apply new > phosphor of some kind, then mount the laser rasteriser where the old > gun was. Neat idea. > Projecting raster images on the side of a building would be fun too. But you'd need to crank the laser intensity way up. Even then it might not be usable except at night. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 8 19:30:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:30:10 -0800 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <m1HPRoB-000J11C@p850ug1> References: <200703080151.l281pqfa027829@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 7, 7 05:51:52 pm, <m1HPRoB-000J11C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <45F04822.3540.34881B8E@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2007 at 23:13, Tony Duell wrote: > > In spite of my "complaint" about getting the catalogs, I'd much rather thumb > > through the paper copy. I just don't have a use at the moment for the pair > > So would I. Unfortunately the big componnet suppliers in the UK (RS > Components and Farnell) will not supply their catalogues to hobbyists at > any price (they will take orders placed on their web site). When I'm coding I'll take paper any day. Even multiple displays on the same computer isn't nearly as convenient. I can sit with a listing and get out my no. 2 pencil and scribble. I can easily lay two listings side-by-side to get a good idea of differences between two versions and draw boxes, notes and arrows. When I play around with a bit of unfamiliar code or set of waveforms or a circuit design, I'll keep track of what I'm doing with paper and pencil. A listing on 14" tractor-feed paper beats the heck out of just about any IDE as far as I'm concerned. I'm probably just showing my age. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 8 19:53:50 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:53:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <200703090127.UAA22175@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <200703090127.UAA22175@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081741410.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, der Mouse wrote: > > Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to > > thinking. How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with > > the speed and accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? > > Quite easy. Barcode scanners do it regularly in one dimension; you > just need to add another, much slower, scan in the other dimension.... Mount a prism horizontal and perpendicular to the target in a gizmo that "rolls" the prism. How hard would the timing on that be? > Does anyone know of any electrically controlled optical deflection > technology that has sub-microsecond reaction times? I seem to recall > seeing that some crystals change their refractive index with applied > voltage; if I'm not misremembering, and if they change fast enough, > that might do. I think I saw something like that in the catalog. > I'd actually prefer to use such a thing not as a raster display, but as > a vector display - hence the interest in electrically deflecting the > beam. I'd like to play vector videogames on a big white wall - either > classic games under something like MAME, or my own.... Yes, I'm interested in doing that too. There's a guy who came up with a fork of MAME and some hardware for doing this. It was called "Laser MAME". I don't know what its status is now. > > Projecting raster images on the side of a building would be fun too. > > But you'd need to crank the laser intensity way up. Even then it might > not be usable except at night. :) Using such a thing in daylight would be rather pointless. It definitely would be usable at night. Think about laser shows. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 20:00:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 21:00:55 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <200703090104.l29149ig020896@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703090104.l29149ig020896@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <CB13C7F6-41F0-44AB-A2F3-C46A5CB663D7@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 8:04 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Last I checked, you can still buy VT520's from Boundless (they > bought DEC's > terminal business). Weren't they originally made by a different company and relabeled & sold by DEC? I seem to recall that the VT420 was the last DEC- built terminal. Which makes perfect sense, as the models after that are utter garbage. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From steve at radiorobots.com Thu Mar 8 20:23:27 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:23:27 -0500 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <200703090127.UAA22175@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <200703090127.UAA22175@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45F0C51F.80401@radiorobots.com> Hi, High BW laser deflection is often done with "Bragg cells". They are acousto-optic. You input signals at NN Mc. and the cell essentially changes its refractive index. As beam shines through, it is deflected. Not inexpensive. When you design a display for human use, psychopyhsics very important. You need to think about energy/unit time, deflection, persistence, retinal sensitivity, etc. Many clever people spent their lives working on phosphors. Sooner or later you get back to Farnsworth and Logie-Baird equivalents. Back when much of the stuff on this list was new, there was a project involving 30 Mc. BW laser deflection for writing directly on wafer. Not sure of current speeds, BW, but bound to be faster. BR, Steve ionder Mouse wrote: >>Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to >>thinking. How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with >>the speed and accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? >> >> > >Quite easy. Barcode scanners do it regularly in one dimension; you >just need to add another, much slower, scan in the other dimension.... > >How hard would it be to do it affordably, safely, etc? That's another >question. Note that horizontal scan frequences in the high tens of KHz >are common; you'll have to be scanning something like that fast on the >"fast" axis. Given (say) a 20-faced mirror spinner (which might be >good enough, though it might prove not linear enough), a scan rate of >80KHz (what the display I'm using right now is doing) means this >thing's RPM would be 80,000 (scans/sec) * 60 (sec/min) / 20 (scans/rev) >= 240,000. 240K RPM is pretty bleedin' fast! Perhaps you can find a >video card that can do something like 1024x768 at 20? Most video cards >are concerned with achieving high, not low, refresh rates.... > >Does anyone know of any electrically controlled optical deflection >technology that has sub-microsecond reaction times? I seem to recall >seeing that some crystals change their refractive index with applied >voltage; if I'm not misremembering, and if they change fast enough, >that might do. > >I'd actually prefer to use such a thing not as a raster display, but as >a vector display - hence the interest in electrically deflecting the >beam. I'd like to play vector videogames on a big white wall - either >classic games under something like MAME, or my own.... > > > >>The upshot? Take an old terminal with nasty screen burn. Cut off >>the gun end of the bottle, clean off the old phosphor. Apply new >>phosphor of some kind, then mount the laser rasteriser where the old >>gun was. >> >> > >Neat idea. > > > >>Projecting raster images on the side of a building would be fun too. >> >> > >But you'd need to crank the laser intensity way up. Even then it might >not be usable except at night. :) > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 8 21:17:10 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:17:10 -0800 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <CB13C7F6-41F0-44AB-A2F3-C46A5CB663D7@neurotica.com> References: <200703090104.l29149ig020896@onyx.spiritone.com> <CB13C7F6-41F0-44AB-A2F3-C46A5CB663D7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <p06240816c21681934aa8@[192.168.1.199]> At 9:00 PM -0500 3/8/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Mar 8, 2007, at 8:04 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Last I checked, you can still buy VT520's from Boundless (they bought DEC's >>terminal business). > > Weren't they originally made by a different company and relabeled >& sold by DEC? I seem to recall that the VT420 was the last >DEC-built terminal. Which makes perfect sense, as the models after >that are utter garbage. I honestly have no idea, I have assumed they did the VT520 and VT525's themselves. I've used some VT520's, and my primary complaint has been that they typically seem to have come with PC keyboards. Rather worthless when you need to get into the setup menu! Though considering they came with Auspex fileservers this might have been done on purpose to keep people out of the menus! The VT520's didn't seem that bad to me, but then I haven't used one on a DEC system, so wasn't coming close to taxing their capability. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 22:11:24 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:11:24 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <p06240816c21681934aa8@[192.168.1.199]> References: <200703090104.l29149ig020896@onyx.spiritone.com> <CB13C7F6-41F0-44AB-A2F3-C46A5CB663D7@neurotica.com> <p06240816c21681934aa8@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <68BBC1BF-22F5-4FCF-9899-0F71BEB730CA@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 10:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Last I checked, you can still buy VT520's from Boundless (they >>> bought DEC's >>> terminal business). >> >> Weren't they originally made by a different company and >> relabeled & sold by DEC? I seem to recall that the VT420 was the >> last DEC-built terminal. Which makes perfect sense, as the models >> after that are utter garbage. > > I honestly have no idea, I have assumed they did the VT520 and > VT525's themselves. I've used some VT520's, and my primary > complaint has been that they typically seem to have come with PC > keyboards. Rather worthless when you need to get into the setup > menu! Though considering they came with Auspex fileservers this > might have been done on purpose to keep people out of the menus! Indeed, my VT520 was originally shipped with an Auspex. It was shuffled into other duties (and quickly into the trunk of my car) when we wired the machine's console port up to a remote console server during setup. When I got it home and fired it up, I was so offended that I very nearly took it back to work. Nearly. ;) > The VT520's didn't seem that bad to me, but then I haven't used one > on a DEC system, so wasn't coming close to taxing their capability. Don't bother. They are garbage. The VT320s and VT420 are the ultimate evolution of the ANSI ASCII terminal in my opinion. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 8 22:02:11 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 22:02:11 -0600 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070308220015.0d7c8510@localhost> At 05:05 PM 3/8/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to thinking. >How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with the speed and >accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? The upshot? Take an old terminal >with nasty screen burn. Cut off the gun end of the bottle, clean off the >old phosphor. Apply new phosphor of some kind, then mount the laser >rasteriser where the old gun was. Projecting raster images on the side of >a building would be fun too. You'd have to make sure you can modulate the beam. After all, if you're going to draw unconnected shapes with it, you have to be able to turn the beam off. Now you're talking about a very low duty cycle. How do you get enough brightness to see it? Sounds like a pretty powerful laser. ----- 619. [Alcohol] Why is American beer served cold? So you can tell it from urine. --David Moulton --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 8 22:28:30 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:28:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070308220015.0d7c8510@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070308220015.0d7c8510@localhost> Message-ID: <20070308202626.V74756@shell.lmi.net> > Projecting raster images on the side of a building would be fun too. In Las Vegas there are occasionally laser graphics over a considerable distance onto sides of buildings. But always vector graphics. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 8 22:57:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 20:57:45 -0800 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <179775.33418.qm@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu>, <179775.33418.qm@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45F078C9.27713.354625FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2007 at 17:15, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >A laser, being totally > optic, would neesd to be mechanically or reflectively > deflected. Also, due to the nasty "laser-ness" of a > laser, I definitely wouldn't want to be in front of a > computer terminal retrofitted with a laser diode. For > projection, however, it would be a neat hack. You'd > have to devise some sort of system of spinning > mirrors, like in the scanner of a laser printer. Maybe > a spinning mirror and a spinning lens... Google "laser MEMS video display". Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 8 23:06:54 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 00:06:54 -0500 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <45F0EB6E.4000302@atarimuseum.com> Hmmmm, sounds the making for either a new episode of Myth Busters, or Jackass III - all depends how it turns out and how many people are blinded or maimed in the process ;-) Curt David Griffith wrote: > Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to thinking. > How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with the speed and > accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? The upshot? Take an old terminal > with nasty screen burn. Cut off the gun end of the bottle, clean off the > old phosphor. Apply new phosphor of some kind, then mount the laser > rasteriser where the old gun was. Projecting raster images on the side of > a building would be fun too. > > From mike at ambientdesign.com Thu Mar 8 15:35:00 2007 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:35:00 +1300 Subject: PDP-11 available in New Zealand References: <E1HPPrl-0007fy-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <000901c761c9$9ffe1c60$3c00a8c0@fluke> > > I'm a good swimmer, but not THAT good. > Yeah, if that were offered anywhere in the US, I'd be seriously > considering it. Then again, so would probably a bunch of other people > from this list just bidding against me :-). I wonder what it would > take to arrange a 3rd party shipper? I'm in Auckland, NZ - I don't have much free time but would be happy to help as far as I can. Mike. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Mar 8 16:38:16 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:38:16 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) Message-ID: <0JEL00ENJW5TB23E@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:05:00 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 3/8/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: >> David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> writes: >> >> > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't seen one on Ebay for >> > at least three years. >> >> At the expense of looking stupid (again), why not use one of the many >> VT-100/VT-220-type teminals that also have a VT-52 mode? > >Dunnou about David's needs, but for my own (VTEDIT under OS/8), >emulation within a more modern dumb terminal is rarely accurate >enough. If you just want approximate emulation, lots of DEC terminals >and DEC-compatible terminals do offer VT-52 emulation, but I've only >tested and rejected the emulation in the VT220. > >-ethan I use my VT320 and 340 in VT52 mode with no issues. The VT100 does it very well. Vt220 did bse VT52 but it was a marketing error to not make it fully compatable, something fixed in later tubes. The hard reality is the VT52 was so limited that to write an emulation from scratch is fairly trivial. Heck I did a PT VDM-1 driver that did base VT52 (video side) sequences so I could use it with Vedit and VTedit (under cp/M and as terminal to PDP8). The only significant breakage was 64 vs 80char lines. What is hard is a good keyboard emulation of VT100 or VT52 on PCs as the keypads really don't match. PC terminal emulations are mostly plain broken. Allison From sethm at mac.com Thu Mar 8 17:52:01 2007 From: sethm at mac.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:52:01 -0800 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081323280.27921@helios.cs.csubak.edu> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081323280.27921@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <68E983F1-CBDD-4782-A95A-D716BFE8E4A3@mac.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 1:24 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On 3/8/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: >>> On Mar 8, 2007, at 1:55 PM, Richard wrote: >>>> If you do and don't want the VT52, I'll buy it :) >>> >>> You're just a terminal-obsessed freak, and you know it! ;) >> >> For stuff of the era, the VT-52 is a very handy terminal. I don't >> recall my results with a VT100 or CiTOH-101 (clone), but I was *not* >> able to use the VTEDIT macro under OS/8 with a VT220 in VT52 >> emulation >> mode. The emulation just wasn't good enough. I suppose one could >> find an open-source terminal program and ensure the VT-52 emulation >> was up to snuff, but for a plug-it-in-and-get-to-work solution, for >> pre-VT52 software, I recommend a real VT52. > > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't seen one on Ebay > for at > least three years. I'd love to know myself. I've wanted one for *years*, but I've never found one. Hell, I can't even find VT100s anymore. About ten years ago you couldn't walk down the street without tripping over VT100s. -Seth Santa Clara, CA, USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 9 01:38:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 02:38:55 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <200703090100.UAA21877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> <200703090100.UAA21877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <C200CC30-6778-45DC-AAD8-102A7C834AE1@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 7:46 PM, der Mouse wrote: >>> (vttest is a good way to see how your emulator _really_ behaves). > > It aws, once upon a time. But these days, it uses ./configure, which > is a security nightmare waiting to happen. When I wrote to the author > about that, the reaction I got back was basically "tough" - I suppose > he feels that his convenience outweighs the security of our systems. Uhh...WTF? Do you do your builds as root or something? > Perhaps it's time to mention mterm again. It's my terminal emulator > for X, and it has a "decansi" emnuation that's X3.64 with some DEC > extensions. decansi mode running at 80x24 (or 132x24 - it will try to > resize its window if you send the column-count change sequence) is a > pretty good VT-100 emulator. URL? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 9 01:40:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 02:40:01 -0500 Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <45F04822.3540.34881B8E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703080151.l281pqfa027829@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 7, 7 05:51:52 pm, <m1HPRoB-000J11C@p850ug1> <45F04822.3540.34881B8E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <52F4C04B-8764-4992-8D27-BA904DC93F68@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2007, at 8:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A listing on 14" tractor-feed paper beats the heck out of just about > any IDE as far as I'm concerned. > > I'm probably just showing my age. No, you're showing your competence. "These kids today" (cough, wheeze) with their IDEs throw together bloated messes and call it "programming". I'm willing to bet that you write tight, fast code. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 9 01:44:11 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 02:44:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <C200CC30-6778-45DC-AAD8-102A7C834AE1@neurotica.com> References: <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> <200703090100.UAA21877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <C200CC30-6778-45DC-AAD8-102A7C834AE1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200703090804.DAA04154@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [vttest] aws, once upon a time. But these days, it uses >> ./configure, which is a security nightmare waiting to happen. > Uhh...WTF? Do you do your builds as root or something? No (well, not most of them); why? Do you think running malicious code is fine provided you're not running as root? >> Perhaps it's time to mention mterm again. [...] > URL? As I wrote, >> See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/mterm.src/ [...]. I'm sure there's some fancy-schmancy URL syntax for anonymous FTP areas, URL:anon-ftp:somethingorother or some such. I prefer to stick to the good old host:pathname syntax used for anon FTP since ~forever. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 02:05:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 03:05:50 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <2643CA42-619D-4FC8-9758-C43CFF7455A4@neurotica.com> References: <E1HPQEc-0002a8-00@xmission.xmission.com> <693329.51755.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> <45F016A7.30710.33C6D3B3@cclist.sydex.com> <f4eb766f0703081405k2233b4e6q8c7d82f3728b30d2@mail.gmail.com> <2643CA42-619D-4FC8-9758-C43CFF7455A4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703090005p6dd2ffcaycaff089c57de3411@mail.gmail.com> On 3/8/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > Can you give us (well, me) a brief overview of VTEDIT and how to > get it running, or perhaps point me to a reference? The TECO macro "vtedit.tec", in various flavors, was used to simulate a visual editor by chopping up bits of the file being edited and slinging them around on the screen with TECO as if you were using something like EDT or vi or whatever else you think of when you edit text in a more advanced way than a simple line editor (like 'ed'). I don't recall off the top of my head how to invoke it, but essentially, you'd fire up TECO in a way so as to drag your file (or a blank file) into the edit buffer, then get TECO to execute the VTEDIT macro on the buffer, letting you walk through the file, make changes, save it, etc. There are a number of TECO macros here... http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/vax88a3/tecoc/ The one called 'vt52.tec' looks interesting. I used to have a keymap printed out and taped to my VT52 that looks a lot like the grid embedded in this file. I never could read TECO macros by glancing at them, so I'll defer to others on how it all works at the bottom layer. I could do simple stuff with TECO, but mostly relied on vtedit.tec working correctly to get any "real" work done under OS/8. Thinking about this all, I should fire up my SBC6120 with my IOB6120 and see how well the VT52 emulator in the IOB6120 FPGA works. For those that don't know the hardware I'm describing, the SBC6120 is (was?) a 12-bit single-board micro based on the IM6120 microprocessor (PDP-8/e-like), and the IOB6120 was an FPGA-based peripheral for it that gave it 3 more serial ports, a 2MB RAM disk, a printer port, and an emulated console VT52 (with VGA output and PS/2 keyboard input). If the VT52 emulation isn't good enough, all the code is available for me to improve it. I just have to learn VHDL first. ;-) -ethan From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Mar 9 02:14:02 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:14:02 +0100 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" Message-ID: <20070309081402.32920@gmx.net> Erik Baigar <erik at baigar.de> wrote: > Beginning of 2005 I got this small airborne computer via eBay and > I bought it mainly because of the 96k of core memory inside. Those > days some of these have been sold by ABEX (...) (Not directly related to your current project, but I immediately thought of it when I read "Tornado" - because I saw the Moving Map Display there - and noticed you're also from Germany) I assume you're aware of the massive amounts of aeronautic, military and electronic stuff www.helmut-singer.de (in or near Aachen) has to offer? Yours sincerely, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de "Feel free" - 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat ... Jetzt GMX TopMail testen: www.gmx.net/de/go/mailfooter/topmail-out From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Mar 9 02:26:58 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:26:58 -0000 Subject: Microterm ACT V terminal on epay Message-ID: <45CC3003.10304@msm.umr.edu> for the St. Louis collectors this might be interesting. It may even be the one I sold some years ago. I had both this one, and the small keyboard package (ACT-I?) which fed composite video as well. I wish I still had the original one, but IIRC I got quite a bit for it in the 80's when I sold it. maybe Jay might like this one if he doesn't have one already. Just be sure if you buy this one or any similar to make sure they handle the suspension of the CRT in the package. I have had a microdata Prism for example snap the plastic mounting tabs by not supporting the thing and then putting it in proper packaging. jim 270095781634 From erik at baigar.de Fri Mar 9 03:58:21 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:58:21 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <E1HPPJb-0004zP-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703090937480.17454-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, Richard wrote: > Awesome job, Erik! Thank you, Richard. > You mentioned the microcode a couple of times -- have you dumped out > the contents of the microcode? Is the CPU implemented from bitslice > chips or something? Well, the CPU is made entirely from 74xxx chips - NO BITSLICE chips in ther. Of course they used the SMD military variant of the chips 54xx and date codes range from 1982 to 1986. I am sure that the powersupply was replaced at least once (not wondering looking at the design). The core PCBs are standard DIL-packages and might have been used in other designs (I discovered a design bug there, too ;-) ) Back to the CPU: It consists of three PCBs of 100mm*160mm in size. Two PCBs are identical and contain 6bits of the accumulator and ALU (shift and logic functions only) each. The third board is labeled "function decode" and this contains the rest of the ALU (12 bit adder, subtracter, zero-detect) and the address generator. Data flow etc. is controlled by 6 PROMS on this PCB. So the content of these PROMS contains what I call microcode, i.e. the bitpatterns and the timing sequence required to make the processor work and the complicated multiply-insttuction lasting for many cycles originates there, too. Since these 32-nibble-PROMS with open collector output are soldered to this multilayer (YES: MULTILAYER) PCB, where the vias are made by some rivets, I did not have the heart to unsolder them for readout. Apart from this I do not have got a reader for them. Of course I considered connecting the logic analyzer to the PROMS and record their contents during operation. But due to the interconnection of the open collector outputs it would be difficult to judge wich of the PROMS is pulling the pin to low. So currently I am still at risk, that there is (a) a defective PROM responsible for the freezing phenomenon and that (b) I will lose the unit if I kill one of the PROMS. But that is life. Thanks and best regards, Erik. From erik at baigar.de Fri Mar 9 04:05:58 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:05:58 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <200703081524.25815.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703091100400.17606-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Hi Lyle, thank you very much for your email. On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Terrific job! I can only imagine the hours and and incredible perseverance > this project required. Simply outstanding. Thanks, but puzzling around this unit is very exciting and thrilling. People who designed this where very clever and often one can wonder how tricky things are done. For example is the adder of the ALU used for address-generation as well to reduce number of chips required. Lot of open-collector logic to have the freedom to make wired ORs, i.e. doing logic without chips. Very clever at many places... > Sure hope you can find unit #2... Yes, this would be great, but my hope is very limited. I think all units have been scrapped long ago and the few which remained have been put apart for the core memory and the rest was trashed to... :-( But hope dies last... Best regards, Erik. P.S. > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" How do you explain the different sizes of black holes? From onymouse at garlic.com Thu Mar 8 19:24:02 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:24:02 -0800 Subject: Gemini, Shugart and Xebec In-Reply-To: <20070308175229.8F7244CB76@smtp.nildram.co.uk> References: <20070308175229.8F7244CB76@smtp.nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F0B732.9030206@garlic.com> Richard Smith wrote: > Hi all, > > I've just dug out my old Gemini 80-BUS computer to remind myself what > I was doing back then..... > > It has a Shugart SA604 hard drive with a Xebec S1410 controller and a > Gemini GM829 FDC/ SASI controller card.....as well as two TEC FB-504 > floppy drives. I have the original test certificate for the Shugart, > dated 5-16-84 signed off by the operator Barb! > > I have a file with all the old user manuals, and a catalogue from the > mid-1980s with a price list from May 1986! > > Question is, do I put this lot back into the cupboard, do I sell it or > do I junk it? > Maybe keep it? Those old huge Winchesters that everyone dumped in the early to mid 90's were sold surplus for less than $100 each and now there are people willing to pay $5000+ for one. Sometime those old ST506-types will appreciate in value, too. Especally if they still work. BTW, remember when w Type 1 VW beetle could be had for $500 running? They seem to be going up in value, too. -- jd In Tulsa, Oklahoma, it is against the law to open a soda bottle without the supervision of a licensed engineer. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 9 07:41:06 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 05:41:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: somewhat OT: configure and mterm was Re: Vintage terminals In-Reply-To: <200703090804.DAA04154@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Mar 9, 7 02:44:11 am" Message-ID: <200703091341.l29Df6Zj018572@floodgap.com> > >> [vttest] aws, once upon a time. But these days, it uses > >> ./configure, which is a security nightmare waiting to happen. > > Uhh...WTF? Do you do your builds as root or something? > > No (well, not most of them); why? Do you think running malicious code > is fine provided you're not running as root? What portion of it is malicious (asking honestly)? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Shady business do not make for sunny life. -- Charlie Chan ----------------- From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 9 08:28:18 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:28:18 -0600 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <20070308202626.V74756@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <BAY120-F10FF88DE211E417F6C0DC1BA780@phx.gbl> >From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Subject: Re: raster laser? >Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:28:30 -0800 (PST) > > > Projecting raster images on the side of a building would be fun too. > >In Las Vegas there are occasionally laser graphics over a considerable >distance onto sides of buildings. But always vector graphics. > > > Downtown Las Vegas, the real vegas (get off the strip!) they are projected every night on a canopy screen over the street. There are several companies that make cheapie x-y servo mirrors and software for the pc too to create vector laser displays.. Surf for it, or give me a few minutes and I will find them. I did raster laser to make 3d models by sintering layers of plastic powder. Later sold to Goodyear. But thats another story. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more?.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01 From James at jdfogg.com Fri Mar 9 08:52:12 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:52:12 -0500 Subject: DEC Disks Available Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256C5D@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I was just at the local scrapper and had him put aside two > RL02s, an RA81, an Unibus crate ( I wasn't able to get the > model), a dual cassette box, and the red and orange trim > pieces that go at the top and between the units - everything > was about to be sent to the shredder. If there is any > interest, let me know and I'll pass on the info. I can do any > checkout anyone wishes later in the week. What part of the country are these in? From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 08:50:45 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:50:45 -0500 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F10FF88DE211E417F6C0DC1BA780@phx.gbl> References: <BAY120-F10FF88DE211E417F6C0DC1BA780@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <45F17445.8010608@gmail.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > Downtown Las Vegas, the real vegas (get off the strip!) they are > projected every night on a canopy screen over the street. > There are several companies that make cheapie x-y servo mirrors and > software for the pc too to create vector laser displays.. Surf for it, > or give me a few minutes and I will find them. > I did raster laser to make 3d models by sintering layers of plastic > powder. Later sold to Goodyear. But thats another story. You're not talking about the Fremont Street Experience, are you? If so, those aren't projections. That's a massively multi-element LED screen. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 9 08:53:55 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:53:55 -0600 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <20070308202626.V74756@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070308220015.0d7c8510@localhost> <20070308202626.V74756@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45F17503.5040509@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > In Las Vegas there are occasionally laser graphics over a considerable > distance onto sides of buildings. But always vector graphics. Hmm, that's just crying out to have a Vectrex hooked up to it :-) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Mar 9 09:31:09 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:31:09 -0800 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703091100400.17606-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> References: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703091100400.17606-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Message-ID: <200703090731.09896.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 09 March 2007 02:05, Erik Baigar wrote: > Hi Lyle, > > thank you very much for your email. --snip-- > P.S. > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > How do you explain the different sizes of black holes? Division by zero produces a NaN (Not a Number) - and IEEE 754 NaNs are represented with the exponential field filled with ones and some non-zero number in the mantissa. A bit-wise example of a IEEE floating-point standard single precision NaN: x11111111axxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. x = undefined. Therefore, since x is undefined, there are many possible valid results - and therefore varying sizes of black holes ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Mar 9 09:35:29 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:35:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) Message-ID: <6733108.1173454529386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't >> seen one on Ebay for at >> > least three years. >> >I have never seen one on eBay - and I have looked >often. Found a lot of other things that are named VT52 >though... I have several VT52s, alive and semi-alive. I have been clearing out some space in my shop and would be willing to part with one of the semi-alive ones for a small fee. If anyone is interested, contact me off-list at wacarder at usit.net. If you're not into component-level debugging, I can dig up the name of a place in the northeastern U.S. that would repair them for $125 a couple of years ago. Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 9 09:24:54 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: somewhat OT: configure and mterm was Re: Vintage terminals In-Reply-To: <200703091341.l29Df6Zj018572@floodgap.com> References: <200703091341.l29Df6Zj018572@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200703091536.KAA06677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> But these days, [vttest] uses ./configure, which is a security >>>> nightmare waiting to happen. >>> Uhh...WTF? Do you do your builds as root or something? >> No (well, not most of them); why? Do you think running malicious >> code is fine provided you're not running as root? > What portion of it is malicious (asking honestly)? None...probably. The thing is, configure is an excellent place to hide a malicious grappling hook: it is frequently run by na?ve installers, not uncommonly as root; by the nature of what it does, it is hard to sandbox (for example, it *must* be able to compile and run new programs); it is large and comparatively difficult to read over for human verification. This means that unless I take an hour or two and read through configure, I'm basically betting the security of my system that the distribution didn't get trojaned. Even if I *do* take that hour or two, reading configure is mind-numbing enough that it's easy to miss something subtle. (I've read through a couple of configure scripts.) I've thought about how I'd go about trojaning a configure script, and the answers scare me enough that I have to want something quite a lot before I'm willing to "just run ./configure". This is why I called it "a security nightmare waiting to happen". As interested as I am in how mterm -termtype decansi stacks up against vttest, I'm not nearly interested enough to be willing to either take that risk or take that boring couple of hours (still leaving some slight risk). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 9 09:49:54 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:49:54 -0600 Subject: Microterm ACT V terminal on epay References: <45CC3003.10304@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <00b501c76262$9643c7d0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote.... > for the St. Louis collectors this might be interesting. Well, it's very interesting to me and I'm in St. Louis. But the terminal is in Long Beach, CA. I guess you're referring to Micro-Term having been a St. Louis based company? This ACT V was the most common one used on the HP2000/Access system I used in high school, so big-time "nostalgia value" for me. I've been looking for one of these for a long time. But did you see the shipping charge on that thing??? It showed $134 for me. Even if I got it at the opening bid that'd still be a $200 terminal and that's just a bit steep :) I guess I don't need one *that* bad. > I had both this one, and the small > keyboard package (ACT-I?) which fed composite video as well. I'm fairly sure the one you are speaking of is an ACT-IVa. That's the one that was a small stand-alone keyboard and typically connected to an external 9" sanyo. I do have one of those units. The IVa should not be confused with a IVb, which looks very different. The IVb looks much like the V. The main visual way to differentiate between the IVb and the V is the IVb has the power and local/online rocker switches on the upright portion of the terminal front, right next to the monitor screen. The V had the power switch on the rear, and the line/local switch was a key on the keyboard. At the very end, my high school replaced all the ACT IVb's and V's with Mime I's. These were really sweet terminals. To me, just the right balance of good keyboard feel, unusually sharp screen, and rather small form factor. > maybe Jay might like this one if he doesn't have one already. I would like it very much. But can't do that kind of price! Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 9 09:52:26 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:52:26 -0600 Subject: somewhat OT: configure and mterm was Re: Vintage terminals In-Reply-To: <200703091536.KAA06677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200703091341.l29Df6Zj018572@floodgap.com> <200703091536.KAA06677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45F182BA.5080103@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: > The thing is, configure is an excellent place to hide a malicious > grappling hook: it is frequently run by na?ve installers, not > uncommonly as root; by the nature of what it does, it is hard to > sandbox (for example, it *must* be able to compile and run new > programs); it is large and comparatively difficult to read over for > human verification. Isn't that also a major *potential* hazard of open-source in general though? At least for the smaller projects with little peer review process, someone could relatively easily slip a piece of malicious code into the source - sure it'd get spotted and fixed pretty quickly, but it could still happen just as easily (or not) as it could with a configure script. It's a question I've asked myself before of OSS: how do I *know* it's going to do what it says it's going to do? Unfortunately the answer seems to be that I don't - but thankfully in my experience OSS contributors are a self-policing lot, so in reality it doesn't happen. i.e. if I download some code from your website, I either have to look through it all and understand it, or I have to simply trust that your code does exactly what you say it'll do - regardless of what procedure's used to build it on my system. cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 9 09:58:12 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:58:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: somewhat OT: configure and mterm was Re: Vintage terminals In-Reply-To: <45F182BA.5080103@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200703091341.l29Df6Zj018572@floodgap.com> <200703091536.KAA06677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45F182BA.5080103@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200703091609.LAA06927@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The thing is, configure is an excellent place to hide a malicious >> grappling hook: [...] > Isn't that also a major *potential* hazard of open-source in general > though? Yes. But it's substantially easier to verify a program than a configure script. For example, if any of the .o files making up vttest were to refer to socket() - something easily checked with nm|grep - I'd want to at least look at the code for it. That sort of verification is substantially harder to do for a configure script. I'd also point out that this is hardly distinctive to open source; running closed-source binaries involves the same trust only with a significantly lower ability to check even if you wanted to. > At least for the smaller projects with little peer review process, > someone could relatively easily slip a piece of malicious code into > the source - Oh, I'm much less worried about one of the overt authors. I'm more concerned about some malicious cracker breaking into the distribution mechanism at some point and inserting something malicious that the legitimate code authors didn't intend. (I've already heard of it happening at least once and I think twice.) Speaking purely personally, this is also part of the reason I tend to roll my own so much - though that isn't much help to other people faced with the same dilemma. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 10:17:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:17:05 -0700 Subject: Ashley Carder: VT52 Message-ID: <E1HPhmD-0006u4-00@xmission.xmission.com> "Ashley Carder" sent me an email about the VT52 and I accidentally deleted it, so if you could resend I would appreciate it. Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 10:19:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:19:47 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: configure and mterm was Re: Vintage terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:24:54 -0500. <200703091536.KAA06677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <E1HPhop-0000U0-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <200703091536.KAA06677 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> writes: > This is why I called it "a security nightmare waiting to happen". But this would be true of any open source software with backdoors potentially hidden deep in the implementation. Honestly, when you get a new sendmail distribution or any other CUSP, do you do a code review of the entire source? I doubt it. Somewhere along the line you have to establish some trust. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Mar 9 10:25:26 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 11:25:26 -0500 Subject: Rogue Save Files & OS-9 Security (was: Vintage terminals... In-Reply-To: <C200CC30-6778-45DC-AAD8-102A7C834AE1@neurotica.com> References: <200703090100.UAA21877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> <200703090100.UAA21877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070309110927.012bcbb0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave McGuire may have mentioned these words: >On Mar 8, 2007, at 7:46 PM, der Mouse wrote: >>>>(vttest is a good way to see how your emulator _really_ behaves). >> >>It aws, once upon a time. But these days, it uses ./configure, which >>is a security nightmare waiting to happen. When I wrote to the author >>about that, the reaction I got back was basically "tough" - I suppose >>he feels that his convenience outweighs the security of our systems. > > Uhh...WTF? Do you do your builds as root or something? Of course I do -- doesn't everybody??? I always log in as root on my laptop -- I don't think I have a non-root ID on the thing unless it's for a daemon and has no shell. I also don't re-alias mv to 'rm -i' or cp to 'cp -i" either... I also try my best to not do anything stupid (like let anyone else touch the computer ;-) -- and the only time I've been burned is when I didn't try hard enough, and did something stupid. What I don't like, is that if you set a file to read-only, root can still whack it. That's my WTF... OS-9 never did that! If it was read-only, even the SuperUser couldn't delete it - you had to manually set the attrib back to writable before you could delete it. That burned me once early on in my Slowaris educamation... =-=-= Bringing this back ontopic, in OS-9, is there a way to *not* be the SuperUser without logging in externally? Whilst trying to get Rogue to not delete it's savefiles, I tinkered with the idea of setting either the Rogue process to non-SU mode or the files themselves to non-SU mode, and never had a lot of luck; it intrigued me so much that I kept tinkering with the idea for a few _weeks_ after I realized a few hours into the project that read-only meant exactly that even for the SU. Never really did get very successful with it... Logging in externally (with my Model 200) was easy to see different owners' processes in procs, but never could do it from within the SU id... Maybe I was just "forking" stupid there, too. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 9 10:28:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:28:07 -0800 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <200703090104.l29149ig020896@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <f4eb766f0703081607y28586675tf5344f34b786feb8@mail.gmail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 08, 2007 06:07:46 PM, <200703090104.l29149ig020896@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45F11A97.2972.37BE2DD3@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2007 at 17:04, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The keypad emulation is the very first thing I check when trying out a new > emulator. Then I look at double-high/double-wide. If I could find one that > handled both of those things *AND* screen display on my Mac properly, and > didn't require a mortgage, I think I'd pass out from shock. Do the collectors of VT100/VT220-type terminals collect mostly DEC equipment? I seem to recall that the Televideo 922 and the Tab (I'd have to look for a model number) were very decent terminals and may have had good VT52 emulation. When I worked with a VAX 11/750 back in the 1980's, I recall that the sales guy (not DEC, but an independent) preferred a non-DEC terminal with a nice 14" display. VT100/220 type terminals were pretty big business back then and many manufacturers made them. AFAIK, they all developed their own code. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 9 10:45:31 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:45:31 -0800 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <45F11A97.2972.37BE2DD3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <f4eb766f0703081607y28586675tf5344f34b786feb8@mail.gmail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 08, 2007 06:07:46 PM, <200703090104.l29149ig020896@onyx.spiritone.com> <45F11A97.2972.37BE2DD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <p06240818c2173e9ff392@[192.168.1.199]> At 8:28 AM -0800 3/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 8 Mar 2007 at 17:04, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> The keypad emulation is the very first thing I check when trying out a new >> emulator. Then I look at double-high/double-wide. If I could find one that >> handled both of those things *AND* screen display on my Mac properly, and >> didn't require a mortgage, I think I'd pass out from shock. > >Do the collectors of VT100/VT220-type terminals collect mostly DEC >equipment? I seem to recall that the Televideo 922 and the Tab (I'd >have to look for a model number) were very decent terminals and may >have had good VT52 emulation. When I worked with a VAX 11/750 back >in the 1980's, I recall that the sales guy (not DEC, but an >independent) preferred a non-DEC terminal with a nice 14" display. > >VT100/220 type terminals were pretty big business back then and many >manufacturers made them. AFAIK, they all developed their own code. > >Cheers, >Chuck I personally don't collect VT100/VT220/VT320 type terminals, though I bought either a VT220 or VT320 when I was first getting started with DEC HW. A friend gave me several VT420's and I really prefer them. The VT100's, VT220, and VT320 that I have all came as part of various lots of hardware. I did have one very funky terminal that I got with a Tektronix computer, but I gave it to Jim Willing. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From andy at smokebelch.org Fri Mar 9 10:45:45 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:45:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Value of a PDP/8? Message-ID: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org> OK, so this is a pretty dumb question, but what is the 'value' of a typical PDP/8? Now I appreciate that configuration can vary wildly and beyond that it is a matter of one what can be located for or what your prepared to pay, luck and circumstance etc. In terms of basic model I was thinking either a Straight-8 or PDP8/E. Now I know only a few years ago a reseller had a number of the latter in stock, tested, for about 400 UK pounds each. Albeit likely with no peripherals, just the card cage and some sort of base config. I've always wanted to own an 8 and have recently been considering the idea of trading some less easy to run equipment. Cheers, Andrew ---------------- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 9 10:52:56 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:52:56 -0600 Subject: Shameless Plug - 74xxxx series ICs Message-ID: <45F190E8.5030002@mdrconsult.com> y'all, This really is a plug for a for-profit business. Flame on. A few weeks ago there was a thread concerning sources for 7400 TTLs. I thought my friends here stock them, but kept my mouth shut till I had a chance to check. I was up there yesterday and they have literally 50-60 feet of 6' shelves, nothing but 74xxxx ICs. They also have an amazing array of arcane memory modules sitting around. I have a vested interest in this. MCH introduced me to the art of hacking when they saved me several hundred bucks by swapping the DRAMs on a memory module for me. They're one of the few shops I know that still keep soldering irons and use them. I want them to stay profitable. :^) They're MC Howard Electronics in Austin, Tx. http://www.mchoward.com 1-800-490-6896 eBay seller mchowardelectronics Warning: pay no attention to the prices on the website. Call 'em up and chat. They ship internationally. Doc From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 9 10:58:06 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:58:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Someone in the UK who can make an 8" disk from my NEC APC images? In-Reply-To: <45EC020B.18648.23D665C4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <783116.35806.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > The 9801 always struck me as having the most > common-sense approach to > diskette support--the format is identical regardless > of the physical > medium. The 9801 (in it's various flavors) was available in the US? I want one (or many :). All I know is the drives in the APC have the most ingenious door locking mechanism I could imagine. Granted, being such a cloistered monk, it's the only one I've ever seen LOL. I sit here trying to imagine the stamping mechanism that produce that little piece of metal. It's too weird though to contemplate. I think I'll just crawl back into my hut... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Mar 9 11:01:05 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:01:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <20070309170105.901E2580FB@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by David Griffith > > > Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to thinking. > How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with the speed and > accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? The upshot? Take an old terminal > with nasty screen burn. Cut off the gun end of the bottle, clean off the > old phosphor. Apply new phosphor of some kind, then mount the laser > rasteriser where the old gun was. Projecting raster images on the side of > a building would be fun too. > I would rather do vector graphics.. :) I have seen plans on the where you use the voice coils from two old hard drives with mirrors stuck to them to bounce the laser onto a wall.. Cheers, Bryan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 9 11:35:55 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:35:55 -0800 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? Message-ID: <45F19AFB.6070204@bitsavers.org> > OK, so this is a pretty dumb question, but what is the 'value' of a > typical PDP/8? PDP8/A's appear to be the least valuable. The original PDP-8 and 8/S much more so. Price ranges are $300 or so for an 8/A. A well configured Original 8 with a discs and DECtape sold for well over 10K within the past few years. If you want something with lights and paddle switches, an 8/E with a usable mass-storage device and full compliment of memory will be on the order of 2K From pechter at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 11:37:45 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:37:45 -0500 Subject: somewhat OT: configure and mterm was Re: Vintage terminals In-Reply-To: <E1HPhop-0000U0-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <200703091536.KAA06677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <E1HPhop-0000U0-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <ee5521f80703090937j66401c1ese7320c4775d26458@mail.gmail.com> In the old days... with rn or perl etc... the stuff was posted via the Usenet and through comp.sources.unix -- so I knew it had lots of eyes checking it, uudecoding it and building it. Any idiot can put something out in an email now as an attachment or on a website. The problem is you used to trust people more because the net was less open and more a group of folks with shared interests. There were a lot less of the hacker dudes out there looking to do the digital equivalent of tag my site with graffiti. I regularly gave out access to my personal machines including root to folks I trusted. Telnet access, uucp access. No ssh. The slow speed meant that there were few dial-up dictionary attacks. Most of the locals knew each other by reputation. It's a much uglier world out there. Bill On 3/9/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > > In article <200703091536.KAA06677 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, > der Mouse <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> writes: > > > This is why I called it "a security nightmare waiting to happen". > > But this would be true of any open source software with backdoors > potentially hidden deep in the implementation. > > Honestly, when you get a new sendmail distribution or any other CUSP, > do you do a code review of the entire source? I doubt it. Somewhere > along the line you have to establish some trust. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> > From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 9 11:42:44 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:42:44 -0800 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? References: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> > OK, so this is a pretty dumb question, but what is the 'value' of a > typical PDP/8? Now I appreciate that configuration can vary wildly and > beyond that it is a matter of one what can be located for or what your > prepared to pay, luck and circumstance etc. I think the standard answer is "whatever it's worth to you" :-). There's a fair bit of variance in the prices of the rarer gear, depending on the venue and the demand at any particular moment. > In terms of basic model I was thinking either a Straight-8 or PDP8/E. There's a world of difference between what those two are worth, I think. > Now > I know only a few years ago a reseller had a number of the latter in > stock, tested, for about 400 UK pounds each. Albeit likely with no > peripherals, just the card cage and some sort of base config. That sounds about right. I'd guess an 8/E would go for $1000US give or take a couple hundred on ePay. (They also appear there several times a year, which helps stabilize prices.) A straight-8 would probably go for 3-5 times that. I've never seen one available, though, so there might be some pent-up demand leading to a bidding war (and even higher prices). I don't have much hope of ever getting a straight-8 for my collection. (I also dont have room for one, so I'd also have to get rid of other stuff to make space for it.) eBay is considered an "expensive" venue, but generally has the most stuff available. > I've always wanted to own an 8 and have recently been considering > the idea of trading some less easy to run equipment. They're not at all practical, but I like them :-). Another point is that you will have a bit of trouble locating peripherals for them. The easiest peripherals to find are the ones also used on pdp-11's. Terminals and RX02 are obtainable for an 8/E pretty easily, the RX8E controller boards are around, but sought after. Peripherals for a straight-8 would be more of an issue. (Well, a terminal would probably be reasonably easy :-).) Vince From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 11:48:21 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:48:21 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: configure and mterm was Re: Vintage terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Mar 2007 12:37:45 -0500. <ee5521f80703090937j66401c1ese7320c4775d26458@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1HPjCX-0002le-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <ee5521f80703090937j66401c1ese7320c4775d26458 at mail.gmail.com>, "Bill Pechter" <pechter at gmail.com> writes: > In the old days... with rn or perl etc... the stuff was posted via the > Usenet and through comp.sources.unix -- so I knew it had lots of eyes > checking it, uudecoding it and building it. I don't see it so different now; there are places you trust and places you don't. You're just saying in the old days you could trust newsgroup distributions. Its always been this way. On PCs there have always been lots of "free utilities" (even before "PC" meant IBM PC or compatible) for which you never had source. Some of them were carrying virus payloads. A copyparty could be a dangerous thing and it might not have even been intentional by the person who transmitted the virus to you. Commercial software has even gone out with virus infections on it. As I say, at some point you have to establish some trust in other people's software. How you do it is up to you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From pechter at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 12:00:11 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:00:11 -0500 Subject: somewhat OT: configure and mterm was Re: Vintage terminals In-Reply-To: <E1HPjCX-0002le-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <ee5521f80703090937j66401c1ese7320c4775d26458@mail.gmail.com> <E1HPjCX-0002le-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <ee5521f80703091000y20e3e337r7c31a36a395b7982@mail.gmail.com> The point is in the old days the distribution was source code that would be submitted by an author and approved for publication by the group moderator. That's a lot better than unverified attachments -- especially binaries. As for the ./configure -- at least you could go through the source code and see what it was doing. Bill On 3/9/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > > In article <ee5521f80703090937j66401c1ese7320c4775d26458 at mail.gmail.com>, > "Bill Pechter" <pechter at gmail.com> writes: > > > In the old days... with rn or perl etc... the stuff was posted via the > > Usenet and through comp.sources.unix -- so I knew it had lots of eyes > > checking it, uudecoding it and building it. > > I don't see it so different now; there are places you trust and places > you don't. You're just saying in the old days you could trust > newsgroup distributions. > > Its always been this way. On PCs there have always been lots of "free > utilities" (even before "PC" meant IBM PC or compatible) for which you > never had source. Some of them were carrying virus payloads. A > copyparty could be a dangerous thing and it might not have even been > intentional by the person who transmitted the virus to you. > Commercial software has even gone out with virus infections on it. > > As I say, at some point you have to establish some trust in other > people's software. How you do it is up to you. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> > From andy at smokebelch.org Fri Mar 9 12:03:51 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 18:03:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org> <024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> Thanks for the replies... I should have guessed at the value of a Straight-8 given I too have never seen one for sale and their form is of somewhat iconic status. An 8/E would seem much more pragmatic, and the cost from a reseller if still stocked and not risen too much pallatable. Will look into it more and the benefits before decided to part with other kit. Incidentally the first computer I owned (a 2U high PDP11/03 IIRC) had an RX02 drive. Well, it actually came with some RL drives too but my dad reckoned mother would kill both of us if we brought those back too. The whole lot (with lots of floppy, RL and tape media, and docs) was 50 UK pounds from a radio amateur rally (when I was 14yo, around 1989). As it happened the machine had to go anyway - every time I accessed the floppy drive the motor interfered with the TV downstairs and I got shouted at! But was way cooler than my dad's Amstrad PCW8512... Andrew ---------------- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> OK, so this is a pretty dumb question, but what is the 'value' of a typical >> PDP/8? Now I appreciate that configuration can vary wildly and beyond that >> it is a matter of one what can be located for or what your prepared to pay, >> luck and circumstance etc. > > I think the standard answer is "whatever it's worth to you" :-). > There's a fair bit of variance in the prices of the rarer gear, depending on > the venue and the demand at any particular moment. > >> In terms of basic model I was thinking either a Straight-8 or PDP8/E. > > There's a world of difference between what those two are worth, I think. > >> Now I know only a few years ago a reseller had a number of the latter in >> stock, tested, for about 400 UK pounds each. Albeit likely with no >> peripherals, just the card cage and some sort of base config. > > That sounds about right. I'd guess an 8/E would go for $1000US give or take > a couple hundred on ePay. (They also appear there several times a year, > which helps stabilize prices.) > > A straight-8 would probably go for 3-5 times that. I've never seen one > available, though, so there might be some pent-up demand leading to a bidding > war (and even higher prices). I don't have much hope of ever getting a > straight-8 for my collection. (I also dont have room for one, so I'd also > have to get rid of other stuff to make space for it.) > > eBay is considered an "expensive" venue, but generally has the most stuff > available. > >> I've always wanted to own an 8 and have recently been considering the idea >> of trading some less easy to run equipment. > > They're not at all practical, but I like them :-). > > Another point is that you will have a bit of trouble locating peripherals for > them. The easiest peripherals to find are the ones also used on pdp-11's. > Terminals and RX02 are obtainable > for an 8/E pretty easily, the RX8E controller boards are around, but sought > after. Peripherals for a straight-8 would be more of an issue. (Well, a > terminal would probably be reasonably easy :-).) > > Vince > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 9 12:06:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:06:45 -0800 Subject: Someone in the UK who can make an 8" disk from my NEC APC images? In-Reply-To: <783116.35806.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45EC020B.18648.23D665C4@cclist.sydex.com>, <783116.35806.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45F131B5.16199.38187AD1@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Mar 2007 at 8:58, Chris M wrote: > The 9801 (in it's various flavors) was available in > the US? Yes and no. It was buried in a lot of Japanese lab equipment and some industrial stuff that was imported here to the extent that we did a small business in equipping PeeCees with diskette-handling ability for the 9801. If you have a USB floppy or IDE Superdrive on your system, it probably handles DOS-V diskettes without so much as blinking. I know that Win2K handles the format just fine, but won't let you format diskettes in DOS-V format. There was an enterprise down in San Diego who could obtain just about anything from a complete 9801 system to parts and doucmentation. All gone now. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 9 12:20:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 12:20:28 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org> <024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> Andrew Back wrote: > Thanks for the replies... I should have guessed at the value of a > Straight-8 given I too have never seen one for sale and their form is of > somewhat iconic status. > > An 8/E would seem much more pragmatic, and the cost from a reseller if > still stocked and not risen too much pallatable. Will look into it more > and the benefits before decided to part with other kit. > > Incidentally the first computer I owned (a 2U high PDP11/03 IIRC) had an > RX02 drive. I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular and collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? Generally they're equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) due to all the quirks and design differences versus the more mainstream DEC stuff. So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware or software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running DEC systems anyway? I'm not knocking the DEC crowd in any way - just trying to work out what it is that makes the systems so much more popular than anything else of the time. I feel like I'm missing some vital piece of info :-) cheers Jules From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Mar 9 12:32:17 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:32:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hewlett Packard A quick reference to HP Time-Shared BASIC In-Reply-To: <200703091804.l29I39vq037289@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703091804.l29I39vq037289@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <64828.207.245.121.210.1173465137.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> I have posted scans on my web site for the Hewlett Packard "A quick reference to HP Time-Shared BASIC" The guide was printed in 1969 for users of the HP 2000A. http://www.vintagecomputer.net/hp/2000A/ From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Mar 9 12:42:30 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:42:30 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Value of a PDP/8? Message-ID: <12974571.1173465751087.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > Jules wrote: >I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular and >collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? Generally they're >equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) due to all the quirks and >design differences versus the more mainstream DEC stuff. > >So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware or >software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running DEC systems >anyway? > >I'm not knocking the DEC crowd in any way - just trying to work out what it is >that makes the systems so much more popular than anything else of the time. I >feel like I'm missing some vital piece of info :-) With me (and maybe with other folks too), the PDP-11 was the first computer I ever "knew", and it is what I learned on. I think in the 1970s the PDP-11 and PDP-8 were commonly used in academic computer centers. Once I met the PDP-11, I was hooked. My life / career has revolved around computers ever since. As for what I do with my running DEC systems, I boot them up from time to time and maybe play a game of Adventure, punch a program on paper tape on the ASR33, print a pinup poster on the LA36 on greenbar paper, copy RK05 packs to disk image files on my PC, etc. Periodically I will get a new peripheral (drive, terminal, etc) and test it out and rack it with my system. Lately I have done nothing at all because I have been too busy with other things. Ashley From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 12:43:42 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:43:42 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? Message-ID: <20070309184342.QOPZ1536.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular and > collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? Generally they're > equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) due to all the quirks and > design differences versus the more mainstream DEC stuff. > > So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware or > software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running DEC systems > anyway? I can't speak for everyone, but I can cite several reasons why I'm always more conscious of picking them up: - Early exposure: A lot of us used DEC systems in college. If we've stuck with the field, we probably have good memories of that time, and when you start getting to a certain point, the nostalgia connecting you back to a happier time is worth a few bucks. - Availability: While we'd all love to get our hands on a straight-8 or a PDP-7, there are certainly a number of models that are quite plentiful. So newcomers to the hobby can get their feet wet with with something outside the 8-bit world pretty easily. - Available software: Partly because of the availiability of the hardware, there's a lot of software out there. So when you get one up and running, you generally can do more than look at the blinkin' lights (though that's worthwhile in itself--much more soothing that a lot of other things). - Company history: The history of the company is long enough to be rich and short enough to be an object lesson. Because of that, the machines are connected with an important element of the overall history of the comuter industry. - Interesting machines: As you pointed out, there're often quite interesting machines. There's a good collection of documentation out there both in terms of details of specific models and in terms of the evolution of the families. - Connection to other history: Because they were so widely deployed, they're associated with a number of other historic bits of computing history. UNIX may be the most obvious example. Anyway, those are a few that come to mind at the moment. BLS From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 9 12:54:38 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:54:38 -0800 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? Message-ID: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> > - Available software: Partly because of the availiability of the > hardware, there's a lot of software out there. So when you > get one up and running, you generally can do more than look > at the blinkin' lights (though that's worthwhile in itself--much > more soothing that a lot of other things). DEC computers have literally two orders of magnitude more software titles that still exist than most other systems. The closest runners up are HP and Data General, though CHM has almost no DG software. It is really sad how little software from other vendors has survived, and beleive me, I've been beating the bushes trying to find it! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 13:04:52 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:04:52 -0500 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> References: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45F1AFD4.9060209@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > - Available software: Partly because of the availiability of the > > hardware, there's a lot of software out there. So when you > > get one up and running, you generally can do more than look > > at the blinkin' lights (though that's worthwhile in itself--much > > more soothing that a lot of other things). > > DEC computers have literally two orders of magnitude more software > titles that still exist than most other systems. The closest runners > up are HP and Data General, though CHM has almost no DG software. > > It is really sad how little software from other vendors has survived, > and beleive me, I've been beating the bushes trying to find it! There's plenty of IBM software still out there, and much of it is still being developed and offered for sale from IBM itself. Peace... Sridhar From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Mar 9 13:16:35 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:16:35 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> References: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <006b01c7627f$7453dc10$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Plenty of info on them, plenty of software, lots of people have them. >From my experience, it's easy to get frustrated looking for parts and assistance for other machines - this isn't the case with DEC gear - I've even known many people to get bitten by the platform simply by word of mouth. Just look at 11/23 and 11/73 boxes, they're practically as common as candy. VERY rarely does a month go by where Ebay does not have a PDP11 up for sale. -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 12:55 PM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Value of a PDP/8? > > > - Available software: Partly because of the availiability > of the > hardware, there's a lot of software out there. So > when you > get one up and running, you generally can do more > than look > at the blinkin' lights (though that's worthwhile > in itself--much > more soothing that a lot of other things). > > DEC computers have literally two orders of magnitude more > software titles that still exist than most other systems. The > closest runners up are HP and Data General, though CHM has > almost no DG software. > > It is really sad how little software from other vendors has > survived, and beleive me, I've been beating the bushes trying > to find it! > > > > > From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Mar 9 13:30:23 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:30:23 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1AFD4.9060209@gmail.com> References: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> <45F1AFD4.9060209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007b01c76281$61cb11b0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > There's plenty of IBM software still out there, and much of > it is still being developed and offered for sale from IBM itself. > Buried in red tape. Did you know that if you obtain an AS/400 system, you are entitled to whatever is licensed to that machine? But in order to find that out, you gotta call IBM and get yourself a customer number, which requires you email a special address, which requires...you see what I mean. > Peace... Sridhar > From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Mar 9 13:28:33 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:28:33 -0600 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <45F0EB6E.4000302@atarimuseum.com> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070309132722.0cbf7620@localhost> World's Best Product Warning Label Ever: "WARNING: DO NOT LOOK INTO LASER WITH REMAINING GOOD EYE!" Can't help chuckling every time I think of that. -T At 12:06 AM 3/9/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Hmmmm, sounds the making for either a new episode of Myth Busters, or >Jackass III - all depends how it turns out and how many people are blinded >or maimed in the process ;-) > > > >Curt > > > >David Griffith wrote: >>Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to thinking. >>How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with the speed and >>accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? The upshot? Take an old terminal >>with nasty screen burn. Cut off the gun end of the bottle, clean off the >>old phosphor. Apply new phosphor of some kind, then mount the laser >>rasteriser where the old gun was. Projecting raster images on the side of >>a building would be fun too. > >----- >226. [Commentary] ...nothing banned in Singapore can be all bad. --Cosma R. >Shalizi, on The Economist >--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... >tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) >"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters >43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc >WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Mar 9 13:32:13 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:32:13 -0600 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <20070309170105.901E2580FB@mail.wordstock.com> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070309132856.0cc0dce0@localhost> At 12:01 PM 3/9/2007 -0500, you wrote: >And thusly were the wise words spake by David Griffith > > > > > > Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to thinking. > > How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with the speed and > > accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? The upshot? Take an old terminal > > with nasty screen burn. Cut off the gun end of the bottle, clean off the > > old phosphor. Apply new phosphor of some kind, then mount the laser > > rasteriser where the old gun was. Projecting raster images on the side of > > a building would be fun too. > > > >I would rather do vector graphics.. :) I have seen plans on the where >you use the voice coils from two old hard drives with mirrors stuck to >them to bounce the laser onto a wall.. It was somewhere about 1980 that I built the basic high-power car-audio speaker laser deflector. Mine used plastic ball-socket pivots and aluminum stock as levers, to pivot a speaker horizontally. The laser goes from that mirror to another one driven vertically by a second speaker. I have a Real Laser (plasma tube NeHe) to drive it. Still works. Haven't we all built something like that at one time or another? ----- 481. [Humor] Shouldn't the Psychic Friends call you? --heard on the radio --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 9 13:55:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:55:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F10FF88DE211E417F6C0DC1BA780@phx.gbl> References: <BAY120-F10FF88DE211E417F6C0DC1BA780@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <20070309115345.G7120@shell.lmi.net> > > > Projecting raster images on the side of a building would be fun too. > > > >In Las Vegas there are occasionally laser graphics over a considerable > >distance onto sides of buildings. But always vector graphics. On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Randy Dawson wrote: > Downtown Las Vegas, the real vegas (get off the strip!) they are projected > every night on a canopy screen over the street. great stuff, but short range projection some of the projection onto buildings on the strip, particularly during Comdex, was from over a mile away > There are several companies that make cheapie x-y servo mirrors and software > for the pc too to create vector laser displays.. Surf for it, or give me a > few minutes and I will find them. > I did raster laser to make 3d models by sintering layers of plastic powder. > Later sold to Goodyear. But thats another story. would like to hear more From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 9 13:56:30 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:56:30 -0600 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070309132856.0cc0dce0@localhost> Message-ID: <BAY120-F3D65C1665A6C23A3F9DF3BA780@phx.gbl> Popular Electronics had a lissajous figure generator project to attach to a scope in XY mode. Just a couple of slowly frequency and amplitude ramping sine wave oscillators. I always wanted to drive some XY servo mirrors and put that on the wall for a laser light show. My XY mirrors came out of an old Pioneer laser disk player. (HeNe tube too!) They would swing several degrees, with the mirrors mounted on a voice coil like yoke over a magnet. Randy >From: Tom Peters <tpeters at mixcom.com> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Subject: Re: raster laser? >Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:32:13 -0600 > >At 12:01 PM 3/9/2007 -0500, you wrote: >>And thusly were the wise words spake by David Griffith >> > >> > >> > Somehow I got subscribed to an optics catalog. This got me to >>thinking. >> > How hard would it be to cause a laser beam to sweep with the speed and >> > accuracy to be a substitute for a CRT? The upshot? Take an old >>terminal >> > with nasty screen burn. Cut off the gun end of the bottle, clean off >>the >> > old phosphor. Apply new phosphor of some kind, then mount the laser >> > rasteriser where the old gun was. Projecting raster images on the side >>of >> > a building would be fun too. >> > >> >>I would rather do vector graphics.. :) I have seen plans on the where >>you use the voice coils from two old hard drives with mirrors stuck to >>them to bounce the laser onto a wall.. > >It was somewhere about 1980 that I built the basic high-power car-audio >speaker laser deflector. Mine used plastic ball-socket pivots and aluminum >stock as levers, to pivot a speaker horizontally. The laser goes from that >mirror to another one driven vertically by a second speaker. > >I have a Real Laser (plasma tube NeHe) to drive it. Still works. > >Haven't we all built something like that at one time or another? > > > >----- >481. [Humor] Shouldn't the Psychic Friends call you? --heard on the radio >--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... >tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) >"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters >43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc >WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User >385531 > > > _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Mar 9 14:16:37 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:16:37 +0000 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <200703082127.l28LQGk4020281@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703082127.l28LQGk4020281@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17F73627-905A-495F-9174-7058F59D2850@microspot.co.uk> Erik, well done with the reverse engineering. I read your description of this computer with a strange feeling. I did not recognise it having 12 bits but everything else seemed very reminiscent of the Elliott 920 series. Then I looked at the pictures, and saw it was made by my old employers, Marconi Avionics who took over Elliott Brothers, and continued to make 920 series machines. I think there were 12 bit versions made by one of the divisions, though I am surprised they were still making them in the 1980s. One part of Elliott Brothers became GEC Computers (based in Borehamwood). One of your labels is from Airborne Displays Division based at the same Rochester site as I worked. This was also part of Marconi Avionics, and the company later changed its name to GEC Avionics. I worked on compilers, linkers and other utility software for the 18 bit 920s before moving on to the Zilog Z8001. Erik, could you tell me if the instruction code is anything like this: 0 Load B (indexing) register and the Q register (shift extension) 1 Add to accumulator 2 Negate and add to accumulator 3 Store the Q register 4 Load accumulator 5 Store accumulator 6 And to accumulator 7 Jump if zero 8 Jump 9 Jump if negative 10 Increment 11 Store program counter (for function return) 12 Multiply 13 Divide 14 Shift 15 Input/Output and special (like interrupt return) 16 to 31, as above but indexed by B register. In early versions of the 920, the B and Q registers were the same register and it and the program counter were held in memory. There were four levels of interrupt and a set of these registers for each, held in location 0 to 7. The high end of memory held a paper tape bootstrap, in later versions, this was just copied into core when the machine was initialised. If this indeed a military machine, you can be sure the memory was erase by flipping every bit backwards and forwards several hundred times to remove any trace magnetism before it was released from the RAF. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 9 14:29:59 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:29:59 -0500 Subject: Shameless Plug - 74xxxx series ICs In-Reply-To: <45F190E8.5030002@mdrconsult.com> References: <45F190E8.5030002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45F1C3C7.6020704@atarimuseum.com> FLAME ON!!! No, just kidding... Actually THANK YOU is in order... as it gets tougher and tougher to find parts, lets the list know about this vein of gold, so to speak is a good thing, I emailed them on the outside chance they may have a very obscure chip I've been searching high and low for, so it can't hurt to ask, thanks. Curt Doc Shipley wrote: > y'all, > > This really is a plug for a for-profit business. Flame on. > > A few weeks ago there was a thread concerning sources for 7400 TTLs. > I thought my friends here stock them, but kept my mouth shut till I > had a chance to check. I was up there yesterday and they have > literally 50-60 feet of 6' shelves, nothing but 74xxxx ICs. > > They also have an amazing array of arcane memory modules sitting > around. > > I have a vested interest in this. MCH introduced me to the art of > hacking when they saved me several hundred bucks by swapping the DRAMs > on a memory module for me. They're one of the few shops I know that > still keep soldering irons and use them. I want them to stay > profitable. :^) > > They're MC Howard Electronics in Austin, Tx. > > http://www.mchoward.com > > 1-800-490-6896 > > eBay seller mchowardelectronics > > Warning: pay no attention to the prices on the website. Call 'em up > and chat. They ship internationally. > > > Doc > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 9 14:37:41 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:37:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rogue Save Files & OS-9 Security (was: Vintage terminals... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070309110927.012bcbb0@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Mar 9, 7 11:25:26 am" Message-ID: <200703092037.l29Kbf7I009830@floodgap.com> > > Uhh...WTF? Do you do your builds as root or something? > > Of course I do -- doesn't everybody??? > > I always log in as root on my laptop -- I don't think I have a non-root ID > on the thing unless it's for a daemon and has no shell. I *never* do unless I need to be doing maintenance. I don't want to do a catastrophic slip or something else -- a little bit of precaution. Or, for that matter, to run something not quite trustworthy as Mr. Big. Plus, this is analogous to the same situation on typical consumer Windows machines. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Support your local hospital. Play hockey. ---------------------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 9 14:40:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:40:11 -0600 Subject: Shameless Plug - 74xxxx series ICs In-Reply-To: <45F190E8.5030002@mdrconsult.com> References: <45F190E8.5030002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45F1C62B.5000107@yahoo.co.uk> Doc Shipley wrote: > I was up there yesterday and they have literally > 50-60 feet of 6' shelves, nothing but 74xxxx ICs. What, not even in boxes or anything? What idiots! ;) OK, so you did ask for flames.... :P Seriously though, thanks for letting us know - personally I'd rather deal with people that someone knows personally than some random ebay auction etc. cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 9 15:01:57 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:01:57 -0600 Subject: Shameless Plug - 74xxxx series ICs In-Reply-To: <45F1C3C7.6020704@atarimuseum.com> References: <45F190E8.5030002@mdrconsult.com> <45F1C3C7.6020704@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <45F1CB45.6020109@mdrconsult.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > FLAME ON!!! No, just kidding... > > > Actually THANK YOU is in order... as it gets tougher and tougher to > find parts, lets the list know about this vein of gold, so to speak is a > good thing, I emailed them on the outside chance they may have a very > obscure chip I've been searching high and low for, so it can't hurt to > ask, thanks. If you mention I told you about them, they'll charge you double.... :) May I ask what chip? And what sort of board/equipment might have one. I'm probably not the only one here with a huge box of junk boards. Doc From cvijovic at EUnet.yu Fri Mar 9 03:35:38 2007 From: cvijovic at EUnet.yu (Cvijovic Velimir) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:35:38 +0100 Subject: FW: Free PDP-11/34A in Germany Message-ID: <000501c7622e$4edb6fd0$cc9e7457@mbc> Dear Sir Where I can find to buy PDP11-04 or 11-34 and what will be a price. Velimir Cvijovic From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Mar 9 14:17:49 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:17:49 +0000 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F3D65C1665A6C23A3F9DF3BA780@phx.gbl> References: <BAY120-F3D65C1665A6C23A3F9DF3BA780@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <45F1C0ED.6020600@gjcp.net> Randy Dawson wrote: > Popular Electronics had a lissajous figure generator project to attach > to a scope in XY mode. Just a couple of slowly frequency and amplitude > ramping sine wave oscillators. I always wanted to drive some XY servo > mirrors and put that on the wall for a laser light show. > My XY mirrors came out of an old Pioneer laser disk player. (HeNe tube > too!) They would swing several degrees, with the mirrors mounted on a > voice coil like yoke over a magnet. > Randy My girlfriend bought me a laser lissajous figure toy thing about a week ago, by some odd synchronicity. It has two angled mirrors spun by little motors, and you can change the speed and direction to draw various patterns. Gordon From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 9 15:36:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:36:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 09, 2007 12:20:28 PM Message-ID: <200703092136.l29LacbO009062@onyx.spiritone.com> > I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular and > collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? Generally they're > equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) due to all the quirks and > design differences versus the more mainstream DEC stuff. > > So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware or > software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running DEC systems > anyway? Here would be my input. Community: It definitely helps when you're stuck Documentation: Huge factor! As far as myself and a lot of other people I know are concerned the DEC documentation is about the best out there. Hardware Availability: It helps, but it depends on what you're afte, what you're willing to pay and how patient you are Software Availability: Is it available? Depends on multiple factors. What you're after, luck, and who you know. There is software I'm after that I know of one person who might have it, and they've not been able to find it. If you want to run VMS it's fairly available. But otherwise, unless you're looking at PDP-10 or maybe PDP-8, you're going to have an interesting time, and most of the software for the PDP-8's and PDP-10's has been lost. I've got the following DEC systems at home and either running or so I can just turn them on. XP1000/667 (Primary VMS system), XP1000/500 (system to swap in if primary dies, and for software testing), VAXstation 4000/vlc (DECnet Area Router), VAXstation 3100/20 (building software), PDP-11/73 (testing, playing, experimenting), PDP-11/23+ (something to stack clean cloths on). My primary VMS system is also my home mail server, printserver, database server, and secure webserver (I even have a wiki running on it now). I typically also spend a lot of time on the system daily using it interactively. This is just a small sampling of my DEC hardware. Though much of the other hardware has either been replaced by what I have listed here, is intended as parts doners to keep the above running (especially the PDP-11/73), or stuff I've never really had a chance to play with (such as my PDP-8 & DECmate III stuff). An interesting pair of machines are the VAXen, I actually have a VAXstation 4000/60 and /90, but prefer to use the two I have at home as the VLC is better suited to its job, and the 3100/20 was setup before I had the better systems (since I don't really use it, why upgrade it). I also have a MicroVAX III in storage that has specifically been built to handle as many types of media as possible. It would be setup, except I don't have anywhere near the room required. > I'm not knocking the DEC crowd in any way - just trying to work out what it is > that makes the systems so much more popular than anything else of the time. I > feel like I'm missing some vital piece of info :-) >From what I see, Commadore 64's, Apple ]['s, and Amiga's are just as popular, however, this list seems to have a very high number of very DEC oriented people. Anything else that is non-PC and non-Mac is likely to have a farily limited following just simply due to the difficulty in getting a working system. I'm also interested in Commadore 64's, Apple ]['s, and Amiga's (I own quite a few of each), but don't really have time to play with them. A few months ago, I did spend about a month playing with my best C64. I have very little spare time, and the odds are if I'm going to spend it playing with a computer these days, it's going to be adding new responsibilities to my XP1000 which runs OpenVMS 7.3-2. I have PmWiki running on it, and have spent the last week trying to get MediaWiki running on VMS, but am having problems with getting it to talk to the version of MySQL running on the system. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 9 15:50:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:50:05 -0800 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <45F1C0ED.6020600@gjcp.net> References: <BAY120-F3D65C1665A6C23A3F9DF3BA780@phx.gbl>, <45F1C0ED.6020600@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com> > Randy Dawson wrote: > Popular Electronics had a lissajous figure generator project to attach > to a scope in XY mode. Just a couple of slowly frequency and amplitude > ramping sine wave oscillators. I always wanted to drive some XY servo > mirrors and put that on the wall for a laser light show. Doesn't Helmholtz show a rig like this in his "On the Sensations of Tone" (circa 1863)? No lasers (not even incandescent light), but a mechanical mirror-equipped rig to look at Lissajous figures. Oscillographs are much older than electronics. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 9 15:50:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:50:45 -0500 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <200703090804.DAA04154@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> <200703090100.UAA21877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <C200CC30-6778-45DC-AAD8-102A7C834AE1@neurotica.com> <200703090804.DAA04154@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <D3E7CE35-A607-4E01-80A0-3B0E6C9A85DE@neurotica.com> On Mar 9, 2007, at 2:44 AM, der Mouse wrote: >>> [vttest] aws, once upon a time. But these days, it uses >>> ./configure, which is a security nightmare waiting to happen. >> Uhh...WTF? Do you do your builds as root or something? > > No (well, not most of them); why? Do you think running malicious code > is fine provided you're not running as root? Well, "Fine", no...but certainly not particularly dangerous if you're doing it under a dedicated account and your machine isn't swiss-cheese security-wise. And it's certainly no more dangerous than anything else and running it without inspecting every line of code. >>> Perhaps it's time to mention mterm again. [...] >> URL? > > As I wrote, (I missed that somehow) >>> See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/mterm.src/ [...]. > > I'm sure there's some fancy-schmancy URL syntax for anonymous FTP > areas, URL:anon-ftp:somethingorother or some such. I prefer to stick > to the good old host:pathname syntax used for anon FTP since ~forever. Sounds good to me, I do the same thing. :-) I will grab mterm and check it out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 9 15:51:55 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:51:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 09, 2007 12:20:28 PM Message-ID: <200703092151.l29LptAW009576@onyx.spiritone.com> > I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular and > collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? Generally they're I forgot to mention, the reason I like the PDP-11 so much is the wide variety of interesting Operating Systems it can run. It's a pity I don't really have time to play with mine any more. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 15:57:20 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:57:20 -0800 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <200703092136.l29LacbO009062@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> <200703092136.l29LacbO009062@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703091357j61d937aao9dda561a196f113b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/9/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > If you want to run VMS it's fairly available. What would be the most appropriate version to run on a MicroVAX II or III? Are there installation tape media images available somewhere? Now that I finally got a PDP-11/73 up and booting 2.11BSD I should see if I can get the MicroVAX II up and running. It might even already have a usable version of VMS on it. I haven't powered it up since I acquired it. I also have a MicroVAX III CPU and memory board set that I think I could swap into it. -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 9 16:17:39 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:17:39 -0500 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org> <024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3191A4C8-A6B3-4AEF-8705-AC887D73D8C4@neurotica.com> On Mar 9, 2007, at 1:20 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular > and collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? > Generally they're equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) > due to all the quirks and design differences versus the more > mainstream DEC stuff. > > So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better > hardware or software availability? What do collectors *do* with > their running DEC systems anyway? > > I'm not knocking the DEC crowd in any way - just trying to work out > what it is that makes the systems so much more popular than > anything else of the time. I feel like I'm missing some vital piece > of info :-) I think everyone has their own reasons. For me, it's a combination of the PDP-11 being the first "real" computer I was exposed to, and the fact that the way most of DEC's designs work just "makes sense" to me in ways that many others don't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jwest at ezwind.net Fri Mar 9 16:27:52 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:27:52 -0600 Subject: 11/45 revisited Message-ID: <000f01c7629a$2d5e2a20$6600a8c0@BILLING> Told ya'll I was going to dig back in to that 11/45 restoration project :) Got the workroom cleaned up enough to actually have room to work on the thing. Stripped it down to the very most basic configuration possible (including getting rid of the 9312 for a 930, etc.). Barebones. No cards in SPC slots except grants. Known good 16K of core and then a base processor set (without segmentation and without FP). Turned on the bottom 742, then the top one... fans all come on but nothing on the front panel at all. Checked the obvious front panel keylock, it wasn't off. Time to check voltages & ripple on the backplane. E02B2 is at 0.55v, indicating the H745 in slot E is officially a problem child. E15A1 is at 0.95v and E01B1 is at 0.05v, so the +15v regulator built into the top H742a is suspect. Noted that the small fan on the top of the top H742a isn't turning so likely the regulator is well-done. The test points on the backplane for regulators B, C & D are ok, as is the -15v from the bottom H742a. Time to get the H742a docs from bitsavers :) Jay West From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 9 16:33:41 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:33:41 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk Viewer Message-ID: <200703092233.l29MXfcn029797@hosting.monisys.ca> Necessity has been inventing again .... FYI, I have just added a new small utility to the ImageDisk package - this is called "ImageDisk Viewer" (IMDV). It is essentially a simple HEX editor that lets you easily poke through .IMD images with HEX displays accompanied by either ASCII or EBCDIC translations. Addtional features include the ability to search the image for specific strings, and to extract and view all printable strings from any arbirary location in the image (including scanning the whole image) - this is VERY handy when you are trying to figure what the heck a particular disk image contains. It's a simple viewer, but it's advantage over fancier dump utilities is that it knows about the .IMD format and can search/scan in the correct order for interleaved sectors (or not if you don't want), and scans/searches transparently across sector boundaries. If you have a reason too (or even if you don't), you can also use it to patch the content of individual sectors within the image (I take no responsibility...) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 9 16:44:11 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:44:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <D3E7CE35-A607-4E01-80A0-3B0E6C9A85DE@neurotica.com> References: <200703082333.l28NXPth018528@onyx.spiritone.com> <200703090100.UAA21877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <C200CC30-6778-45DC-AAD8-102A7C834AE1@neurotica.com> <200703090804.DAA04154@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <D3E7CE35-A607-4E01-80A0-3B0E6C9A85DE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200703092301.SAA09778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/mterm.src/ [...]. > I will grab mterm and check it out. Do please let me know if you have any problems with it (this applies to anyone else interested in mterm, too, which is why the post to the list). It hasn't been built on that many systems other than my own.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 9 17:14:00 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:14:00 -0800 Subject: Why DEC Equipment?, was Re: Value of a PDP/8? Message-ID: <45F1EA38.A4E91F39@rain.org> > I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular > and collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? > Generally they're equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) > due to all the quirks and design differences versus the more > mainstream DEC stuff. For me, DEC was the first "real" computer that I could actually work on. Attending the Maynard training facility was a blast. The instructors used to have us practice troubleshooting the 11/45 by putting tape on a finger "somewhere", and then we had to find the fault. I still remember a friend and I going in one night to practice, putting a piece of tape on a random finger, and taking some two or three hours to find the "problem" :). Normally, the instructor faults would take us maybe 30 minutes max. Later, I programmed an 11/05 as necessary when looking for faults in the control system for a large bakery. T'was just plain fun!!!!! From jclang at notms.net Fri Mar 9 17:18:10 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:18:10 -0500 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org> <024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F1EB32.8080407@notms.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: > >> Thanks for the replies... I should have guessed at the value of a >> Straight-8 given I too have never seen one for sale and their form is >> of somewhat iconic status. >> >> An 8/E would seem much more pragmatic, and the cost from a reseller >> if still stocked and not risen too much pallatable. Will look into it >> more and the benefits before decided to part with other kit. >> >> Incidentally the first computer I owned (a 2U high PDP11/03 IIRC) had >> an RX02 drive. > > > I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular > and collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? > Generally they're equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) due > to all the quirks and design differences versus the more mainstream > DEC stuff. > > So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware > or software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running > DEC systems anyway? > > I'm not knocking the DEC crowd in any way - just trying to work out > what it is that makes the systems so much more popular than anything > else of the time. I feel like I'm missing some vital piece of info :-) > > cheers > > Jules > I can only speak to my own reasons. It really comes down to 2 issues. When I started collecting DEC hardware it was pretty cheap on the surplus market. My 11/05 cost $50.00 US and was runnable. Another $150 and I had a pair of RX01's. The most expensive part was RAM. 56K semiconductor RAM $200....Full address space, priceless. I know DEC never did semiconductor RAM for the 11/05 But I did ;-) I've still got the artwork around here somewhere. The cost still continues to be reasonable. Just look at the E-pay listings for q-bus. toss out the bottom-feeders and you can put a system together for a few hundred. Dec documents were (and still are) available, mostly for free. A lot of people around here (central FL) were running DEC most everything was just a photocopy away. joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 9 17:19:27 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 15:19:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703091357j61d937aao9dda561a196f113b@mail.gmail.com> from "Glen Slick" at Mar 09, 2007 01:57:20 PM Message-ID: <200703092319.l29NJRIg012634@onyx.spiritone.com> > > If you want to run VMS it's fairly available. > > What would be the most appropriate version to run on a MicroVAX II or > III? Are there installation tape media images available somewhere? Realistically? Any version you can get on a pair of good TK50's (as I recall even V5.5 is 2 TK50 tapes). I've run V5.5 on my MicroVAX II before turning it into a PDP-11/73. I've got V7.2 on my MicroVAX III. However, I was able to copy the 7.2 install CD over DECnet and write it out to an RA72 and install from that, in order to setup my MVIII. It's not the suggestion you want, but you should think about getting a VAXstation 3100 or 4000 series machine. With those and a SCSI CD-ROM that is capable of doing 512-byte blocks you can easily install OpenVMS, and then remotely boot the MicroVAX II/III as a cluster node. At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter. Zane From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 9 17:18:25 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:18:25 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> References: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45F1EB41.1040106@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > It is really sad how little software from other vendors has survived, > and beleive me, I've been beating the bushes trying to find it! On that note, I've largely come to the conclusion that it's impossible to actively seek out - but that it does exist out there and will sometimes turn up completely at random. I'm amazed at what gems I'm unearthed when I *haven't* been trying, and via some really strange connections. The depressing ones are when you run into someone who says: "yes, I had every single bit of software for system xyz, but I tossed it out a couple of years ago". That one's happened *again* in the last couple of weeks, for a line of machines where surviving software is (currently) very thin on the ground :( I'm not quite sure how to get the message out there that this stuff's of potential interest - particularly without being drowned in copies of mundane PC software. Often the people who actually have a stash of disks / tapes / whatever aren't the ones who recall what they actually are! cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 17:25:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:25:18 -0700 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:19:27 -0800. <200703092319.l29NJRIg012634@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <E1HPoSc-0005X5-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <200703092319.l29NJRIg012634 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes: > At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter. Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver 4000/300 has one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 17:26:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:26:03 -0700 Subject: CompuColor II ends... Message-ID: <E1HPoTL-0001NQ-00@xmission.xmission.com> Five bids and it closed at $1,124.00 That's out of my budget, whew. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 9 17:48:03 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:48:03 -0800 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? Message-ID: <45F1F233.2010403@bitsavers.org> > I'm not quite sure how to get the message out there that this stuff's of > potential interest - particularly without being drowned in copies of mundane > PC software. Guess we need to just keep putting the word out that there are places around the world capable of reading old media. I'm saddened by the number of people that I contact that don't want to bother sending old tapes because they are 'impossible' to read. > I've largely come to the conclusion that it's impossible to > actively seek out - but that it does exist out there and will sometimes turn > up completely at random. Frustrating, but true. The collections I know of that are still 'latent' will probably stay that way forever, because the people who have them want to restore their machines to read the media (a REALLY bad idea..) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 9 17:39:49 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:39:49 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1EB41.1040106@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> <45F1EB41.1040106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070309173527.0583edd8@mail> At 05:18 PM 3/9/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >I'm not quite sure how to get the message out there that this stuff's of potential interest - particularly without being drowned in copies of mundane PC software. Often the people who actually have a stash of disks / tapes / whatever aren't the ones who recall what they actually are! I think the most effective method is to create a web page stating that you're eager to preserve (and pay shipping to get) those items. Many people who are about to throw away something that was once valuable will Google and/or search eBay to see if anyone is selling or preserving the stuff. I think there's a lot of potential for a generic "rescue squad" web application for this. Not just for classic computers, but almost every hobby involved in preservation. Like Freecycle, but national, and based on stated wants, and geographically linked and alerted so a ready rescuer can be found quickly. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 9 17:52:56 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 15:52:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <E1HPoSc-0005X5-00@xmission.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Mar 09, 2007 04:25:18 PM Message-ID: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> > In article <200703092319.l29NJRIg012634 at onyx.spiritone.com>, > "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes: > > > At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter. > > Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver 4000/300 has > one. It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus ones, and a Unibus one, but they're all in my PDP-11's. It's even better luck if the adapter can handle disk, tape, and CD-ROM (just because one can do disk doesn't mean it will support CD). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 9 17:57:35 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 15:57:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1EB41.1040106@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 09, 2007 05:18:25 PM Message-ID: <200703092357.l29NvZmw013821@onyx.spiritone.com> > The depressing ones are when you run into someone who says: "yes, I had every > single bit of software for system xyz, but I tossed it out a couple of years > ago". That one's happened *again* in the last couple of weeks, for a line of > machines where surviving software is (currently) very thin on the ground :( In my case it's usually "last month". It's also typically books rather than hardware or software, but then I'm activelly looking for books for the Historical Library I'm involved with. Thanks to what I've donated there is a lot of DEC material, and thanks to one of the founders a small selection of rather old IBM manuals. There are also quite a bit of Microcomputer and Unix doc's. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 9 18:04:24 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 18:04:24 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? References: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> <45F1EB41.1040106@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070309173527.0583edd8@mail> Message-ID: <002601c762a7$ac576e60$6600a8c0@BILLING> John wrote... > I think there's a lot of potential for a generic "rescue squad" > web application for this. Not just for classic computers, but > almost every hobby involved in preservation. Like Freecycle, > but national, and based on stated wants, and geographically > linked and alerted so a ready rescuer can be found quickly. That has already been done on the development version of the classiccmp website. It's a replacement for the CCRS. Jay From andy at smokebelch.org Fri Mar 9 18:10:24 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:10:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20070310000714.A81299@plum.flirble.org> On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> In article <200703092319.l29NJRIg012634 at onyx.spiritone.com>, >> "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes: >> >>> At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter. >> >> Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver 4000/300 has >> one. > > It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus ones, and a Unibus one, > but they're all in my PDP-11's. > > It's even better luck if the adapter can handle disk, tape, and CD-ROM (just > because one can do disk doesn't mean it will support CD). I remember someone once patched the uVAX2000 firmware so they could (kinda) support discs on the (not wholly implemented) SCSI. I wish I still had a uVAX2000 - slow, but cute. I probably still have the scars from trying to get the case back on the ones I had . Don't often see those these days... Andrew From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 9 18:10:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:10:58 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070309173527.0583edd8@mail> References: <45F1AD6E.3040508@bitsavers.org> <45F1EB41.1040106@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070309173527.0583edd8@mail> Message-ID: <45F1F792.1080403@yahoo.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > At 05:18 PM 3/9/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I'm not quite sure how to get the message out there that >> this stuff's of potential interest > > I think the most effective method is to create a web page > stating that you're eager to preserve (and pay shipping to get) > those items. Many people who are about to throw away something > that was once valuable will Google and/or search eBay to see > if anyone is selling or preserving the stuff. The problem though is that the real gems tend to be left with people who assume (rightly) that they have little monetary value, but who also think (often wrongly) that they have no historical value. e.g. given an old piece of furniture, upon unearthing it someone's elderly widow might make a few inquiries to see what it is or whether it's useful to anyone. I don't forsee them doing the same for a bunch of floppy disks, because it simply wouldn't occur to them that they might be important to someone. I'm not sure how anyone can tackle that; it needs a raising of general awareness amongst the public that old computer paraphernalia can be just as useful as other old "junk". In particular, I'm not sure how anyone can tackle the problem *soon* - because unlike a lot of things, computer-related material (at least on the software side) probably has a shelf life of a few decades rather than a few hundred years. Maybe I just think too much :) cheers J. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 9 18:19:15 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 18:19:15 -0600 Subject: 11/45 revisited References: <000f01c7629a$2d5e2a20$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <004001c762a9$be248d10$6600a8c0@BILLING> I was looking at the power control board for the H742A (5409730) that is supposed to be putting out my +15v. I couldn't find any schematics on this board but the system engineering prints appear to indicate they should be present. In the absence of schematics (and any obvious scorching) I figured the likely first thing to check is the sole TO-3 power transistor on the board. Sure enough, the C-E junction is shorted so at the least I'll need one of those. 1) The critter is Motorola "DEC3000" which I'm betting is a DEC house part number (since ECG xref shows nothing && it starts with DEC). Can anyone clue me in to what part that really is? 2) Are the schematics for 5409730 around so I can try to understand it a little better? Thanks for any pointers! Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 9 17:30:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 23:30:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: tools / test gear / components in the US? In-Reply-To: <45F04822.3540.34881B8E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 8, 7 05:30:10 pm Message-ID: <m1HPoY0-000J0gC@p850ug1> > When I'm coding I'll take paper any day. Even multiple displays on > the same computer isn't nearly as convenient. I can sit with a > listing and get out my no. 2 pencil and scribble. I can easily lay > two listings side-by-side to get a good idea of differences between > two versions and draw boxes, notes and arrows. > > When I play around with a bit of unfamiliar code or set of waveforms > or a circuit design, I'll keep track of what I'm doing with paper and > pencil. > > A listing on 14" tractor-feed paper beats the heck out of just about > any IDE as far as I'm concerned. > > I'm probably just showing my age. I'm old-fashioned too. I do my hardware design and fault-finding with a pen and paper (and maybe a calculaotr). I draw my RE'd diagrams by hand (I'll use CAD system when I find one that actually _aids_ me). I debug what little code I write working on a printed listing and making notes. And so on. I rarely carry a pocket computer with me, but I am almost never without a notebook (the paper kind) and pen. I also find it much easier to flip through a paper catalogue or databook and see what's available than to do the same thing on-line. I really don't know how peop[le find what chips are avaialbe, and what their features are with on-line datasheets. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 9 18:19:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:19:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 revisited In-Reply-To: <000f01c7629a$2d5e2a20$6600a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Mar 9, 7 04:27:52 pm Message-ID: <m1HPpJK-000J12C@p850ug1> > > E02B2 is at 0.55v, indicating the H745 in slot E is officially a problem > child. That's a -15V brick, isn;t it.. > E15A1 is at 0.95v and E01B1 is at 0.05v, so the +15v regulator built into The -15V bricks need a +15V supply from the PCB in the front section of the H742, as well as the 30V AC input from the transformer. So there might only be one fault here. > the top H742a is suspect. Noted that the small fan on the top of the top > H742a isn't turning so likely the regulator is well-done. You do have mains going to that supply, right? (yes, I know it's obvious, but it's worth checking). The PCB in the front (+8V, +15V, LTC, etc) is acutally quite simple (IIRC, linear, not swtiching, regulators, for example). If that's where the fault is, you've got a fairly easy day ahead... IIRC, there's at least one fuse on that PCB. > The test points on the backplane for regulators B, C & D are ok, as is OK, so you do haev mains, and the transformer is probably OK. > the -15v from the bottom H742a. That '-15V' is odd if it's the rail I think it is. The '+15V' output of the 'front PCB' is tied to the system ground rail, so the '0V' line o nthat PCB is actually at -15V wrt ground. That's why the prints tell you not to use the LTC, ACLO, etc pins on the lower H742 (they'd be references to the -15V rail, not system ground). -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 18:31:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:31:56 -0700 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:52:56 -0800. <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <E1HPpV6-0008Mg-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes: > > In article <200703092319.l29NJRIg012634 at onyx.spiritone.com>, > > "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes: > > > > > At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter. > > > > Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver 4000/300 has > > one. > > It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus ones, and a Unibus one, > but they're all in my PDP-11's. > > It's even better luck if the adapter can handle disk, tape, and CD-ROM (just > because one can do disk doesn't mean it will support CD). I believe mine was used for CD-ROM. Its a CMD controller. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 9 19:15:18 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:15:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <E1HPpV6-0008Mg-00@xmission.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Mar 09, 2007 05:31:56 PM Message-ID: <200703100115.l2A1FIrn016169@onyx.spiritone.com> > I believe mine was used for CD-ROM. Its a CMD controller. CMD made good speedy controllers. Mine are Viking (or rebadged Vikings), which I believe are noted for being solid, but slow. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 19:29:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:29:36 -0500 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703091357j61d937aao9dda561a196f113b@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> <200703092136.l29LacbO009062@onyx.spiritone.com> <1e1fc3e90703091357j61d937aao9dda561a196f113b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703091729k555fb3adx1dc0610667deeabb@mail.gmail.com> On 3/9/07, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote: > What would be the most appropriate version to run on a MicroVAX II or > III? Are there installation tape media images available somewhere? Appropriate? Back in the day, the DEC-supplied choices were VMS or Ultrix, but some folks (typically in University environments) ran 4BSD. Where I worked, we had MicroVMS 4.6 on our first MicroVAX II (originally shipped from DEC as a MicroVAX I then upgraded for about $20K, hardware and software), and Ultrix 1.1 then 2.0 on our BA-123 MicroVAX II. > Now that I finally got a PDP-11/73 up and booting 2.11BSD I should see > if I can get the MicroVAX II up and running. It might even already > have a usable version of VMS on it. I haven't powered it up since I > acquired it. I also have a MicroVAX III CPU and memory board set that > I think I could swap into it. Sure. I've never owned a MicroVAX III, but I have countless hours on MicroVAX IIs w/9MB of RAM and RD53/RD54 disks. If you are interested in running an OS from the 1980s, the MicroVAX II and III are good platforms. If you want to run a newer version of VMS, like 6.x, it will tax the resources of a MicroVAX II, but is (barely) possible. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 20:25:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:25:30 -0500 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F1EB32.8080407@notms.net> References: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org> <024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> <45F1A56C.4010506@yahoo.co.uk> <45F1EB32.8080407@notms.net> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703091825m4049e2d9v969133368df1d7a1@mail.gmail.com> > > Someone (Jules? broken attribution?) wrote: > > I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular > > and collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? > > > > So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware > > or software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running > > DEC systems anyway? Familiarity - for me, as well as many members of this list, it's a matter of accumulated experience on DEC boxes when they were new or recently retired. > I can only speak to my own reasons. It really comes down to 2 issues. > > When I started collecting DEC hardware it was pretty cheap on the > surplus market. My 11/05 cost $50.00 > US and was runnable. Another $150 and I had a pair of RX01's. The most > expensive part was RAM. Nice start. As I've posted in the past, my start with DEC hardware was a $35 PDP-8/L in 1982 from the Dayton Hamvention. It took me 2 years of fiddling around with it until I ran across a copy of the module list and got it working. From there, it was to a PDP-8/a to which I added an RX8E/RX01 then an RL8A and RL01 and a VT52. Coincident with the PDP-8/a, I was using PDP-11s and VAXen at work, so I was pretty well established as a DEChead between High School and my Freshman year of College. I never got paid to program a PDP-8, but I'm happy I barely made the cutoff to program the PDP-11 for a living (1986-1987). Besides early access to the hardware, I'd say the appeal was how much cooler 12-bits and 16-bits and 32-bits was compared to my little 6502 and 1802 machines were at home. I could write "real" programs on a minicomputer at work or poke around with noddy stuff in BASIC and 6502 assembler at home. No contest. It didn't hurt that while I was learning PDP-11 machine language at work (typing in diagnostics with console ODT emulators), I was also working on Unibus and Qbus hardware. I got to learn all the low-level stuff _and_ get a paycheck for it. I never saw an HP or Data General in the flesh until several years after I was repairing PDP-11 boards and writing programs in MACRO and C. Speaking of C, I learned it on an 11/750 running 4BSD in 1985. A venerable platform if ever there was one (back in the days of "all the world's a VAX"). I learned the One True Brace formatting standard in that environment and retain that style to this day. So... in short - early exposure and access, then the chance to pick up older stuff on the surplus market for cheap or free. When nobody wanted 5MB RL01s, I was buying cheap RL01s. Later it was RL02s, then it was entire MicroVAXen, etc. So much of it was backwards and forwards compatible, I could play with what I could afford at home, then take my results to work and run stuff on really expensive iron ($100K+). Shame it's all so hard to find now. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 20:28:49 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:28:49 -0500 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <E1HPoSc-0005X5-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703091828w1c3d8971xecff1ba58fd1301f@mail.gmail.com> On 3/9/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus ones, and a Unibus one, > but they're all in my PDP-11's. I have managed to score a Qbus SCSI adapter or two over the past few years, but I've longed for at least one Unibus SCSI adapter. I know they made VAXBI adapters, but when they were new, those were $10K for disk _or_ tape, or $15K for disk _and_ tape... as such, there aren't many of them floating around. Lots of Qbus, fewer Unibus, damn few VAXBI. I'd love to throw a Unibus SCSI controller into my VAX-11/750 and play around. Except for the machine known as osu-eddie, I have very little time on the 11/780, but I have wads and wads of time on an 11/750 - initially as one of 30 users (8MB), later as one of 1-2 users (12MB). I think a 11/750 makes a fine single-user VMS "workstation" ;-) -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 20:52:39 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:52:39 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers Message-ID: <E1HPrhH-0003oe-00@xmission.xmission.com> I bought this from dvdplanet the other day (good deal: $15) and watched it recently. They seemed to skip the entire minicomputer/workstation phase and jumped straight from mainframes to the personal computer. What was interesting though is the collection of footage that they used throughout. I spotted what looked like footage of an HP terminal factory, manufacturing 2621's. On the shelves in the background were 2648 style cabinets. It was a brief clip, but I felt "cool" knowing that I was one of the few people who would recognize the equipment! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 20:55:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:55:00 -0700 Subject: SWTPC craze Message-ID: <E1HPrjY-00010J-00@xmission.xmission.com> Clearly SWTPC is a brand that is just as desirable as CompuColor. ebay Item # 190088674069 CT-64 terminal with minor case damage and no matching monitor. 12 bids, closed at $625.25 Another item out of my price range... I had to fight really hard to get my Cromemco Beehive -- I imagine the Cromemco OEM label is the only thing that kept it out of the scrappers hands. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From recycler at swbell.net Fri Mar 9 20:58:16 2007 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick J. Jankowiak) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:58:16 -0600 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org> <024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45F21EC8.2040400@swbell.net> The 8i has several rows of lights.. very nice. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 9 21:02:38 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:02:38 -0600 Subject: XMI goodies? Message-ID: <45F21FCE.8070603@mdrconsult.com> Is there any interest here in DEC XMI gear? Preferably cash or trade interest.... ;) I have several rackmount XMI enclosures, a couple of CI and a *bunch* of SCSI and ethernet boards with cab kits. They're about to go on eBay, but I thought I'd check here to see if anyone's looking. Oh, yeah, I also have 5 or 6 star couplers and a bunch of Big Blue CI cable, and a couple of HS<mumble> CI-SCSI adapters *without* their flash cards. For that matter, I have 2 rackmount DEC7000 cabinets I'd like to see disappear. One is the bare cabinet, the other has 2 procs and the laserbus-XMI adapter intact. I'm supremely uninterested in crating or palletizing the enclosures, so you'll need either to arrange that yourself or prepare to be extorted. :) Reply off-list if interested. I'll be making a more specific inventory this weekend. Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 21:09:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:09:06 -0500 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <45F21EC8.2040400@swbell.net> References: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org> <024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> <45F21EC8.2040400@swbell.net> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703091909q11c6e314i20bedb42460a000@mail.gmail.com> On 3/9/07, Patrick J. Jankowiak <recycler at swbell.net> wrote: > The 8i has several rows of lights.. very nice. Until you have to replace 25% of them (as I did in my -8/i). Worth the work, though. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 21:26:39 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:26:39 -0700 Subject: XMI goodies? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:02:38 -0600. <45F21FCE.8070603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45F21FCE.8070603 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> writes: > Is there any interest here in DEC XMI gear? I haven't the foggiest idea what XMI gear is :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 21:35:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:35:47 -0500 Subject: XMI goodies? In-Reply-To: <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <45F21FCE.8070603@mdrconsult.com> <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703091935u59b6eb02g6d83ab14fa9f1b17@mail.gmail.com> On 3/9/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > In article <45F21FCE.8070603 at mdrconsult.com>, > Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> writes: > > > Is there any interest here in DEC XMI gear? > > I haven't the foggiest idea what XMI gear is :-) I should probably let Doc chime in here, but I can't resist... it's the CPU/memory bus used in late-model DEC VAXen like the VAX 6000 line. One stuffs a few CPUs, some memory, perhaps some network or cluster controllers and maybe a VAXBI cage or two on the XMI bus and you have a fully-loaded VAX 6xxx (where the exact model number is a product of the number and speed/variety of the CPUs). If I remember correctly, one may stuff up to 6 CPUs on the XMI bus, which is limited to a smallish number of total slots), but if one wants to max out the memory and have other peripherals in there, it might not be possible to have all 6 CPUs loaded. Interesting stuff, if you want to run a VAX the size of a refrigerator. The last one I saw in the wild was a few years ago, but there are quite a few in hobbyist hands. Someone (here?) has described how to run one off of either single-phase or US 220VAC, but they shipped from DEC with 3-phase power, IIRC. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 9 21:37:36 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:37:36 -0600 Subject: XMI goodies? In-Reply-To: <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45F22800.5060709@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > In article <45F21FCE.8070603 at mdrconsult.com>, > Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> writes: > >> Is there any interest here in DEC XMI gear? > > I haven't the foggiest idea what XMI gear is :-) It's one of DEC's more arcane I/O busses. I've only ever seen it attached to VAX6000, DEC7000 and VAX7000, and DEC10000 systems. I don't know if any other systms used it. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 9 21:52:04 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:52:04 -0700 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703091100400.17606-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> References: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703091100400.17606-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Message-ID: <45F22B64.30001@jetnet.ab.ca> Erik Baigar wrote: > P.S. > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > How do you explain the different sizes of black holes? Octal and Hexadecimal 0's are bigger than binary ones. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 9 22:04:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:04:25 -0700 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <20070309184342.QOPZ1536.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20070309184342.QOPZ1536.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <45F22E49.1020605@jetnet.ab.ca> Brian L. Stuart wrote: > - Availability: While we'd all love to get our hands on a straight-8 > or a PDP-7, there are certainly a number of models that are > quite plentiful. So newcomers to the hobby can get their feet > wet with with something outside the 8-bit world pretty easily. > - Available software: Partly because of the availiability of the > hardware, there's a lot of software out there. So when you > get one up and running, you generally can do more than look > at the blinkin' lights (though that's worthwhile in itself--much > more soothing that a lot of other things). > But is that really so ... More I find about DEC is the layered software that is still under commercial licence even if the real hardware has cummbled to a powder and blown away in the wind. Most of the problem with running anything is that before the AT, computers had such small memory space that there is nothing useful that can be run anymore. The only advantage of small systems is that you can feel and see them run, a box with a PANDA display may run a lot faster, but it DON'T have the feel of a REAL 10. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 9 22:07:08 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 21:07:08 -0700 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070309132722.0cbf7620@localhost> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081701250.11684@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20070309132722.0cbf7620@localhost> Message-ID: <45F22EEC.7000901@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Peters wrote: > World's Best Product Warning Label Ever: > > "WARNING: DO NOT LOOK INTO LASER WITH REMAINING GOOD EYE!" > > Can't help chuckling every time I think of that. > I remember that as "YOUR REMAINING EYE". From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 9 22:16:19 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 22:16:19 -0600 Subject: XMI goodies? In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703091935u59b6eb02g6d83ab14fa9f1b17@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F21FCE.8070603@mdrconsult.com> <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> <f4eb766f0703091935u59b6eb02g6d83ab14fa9f1b17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F23113.2040902@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/9/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: >> >> In article <45F21FCE.8070603 at mdrconsult.com>, >> Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> writes: >> >> > Is there any interest here in DEC XMI gear? >> >> I haven't the foggiest idea what XMI gear is :-) > > I should probably let Doc chime in here, but I can't resist... it's > the CPU/memory bus used in late-model DEC VAXen like the VAX 6000 > line. One stuffs a few CPUs, some memory, perhaps some network or > cluster controllers and maybe a VAXBI cage or two on the XMI bus and > you have a fully-loaded VAX 6xxx (where the exact model number is a > product of the number and speed/variety of the CPUs). If I remember > correctly, one may stuff up to 6 CPUs on the XMI bus, which is limited > to a smallish number of total slots), but if one wants to max out the > memory and have other peripherals in there, it might not be possible > to have all 6 CPUs loaded. No, please, you know way more about 'em than me. I've never run these, although they were running till the day before I took them. I uncabled them on the datacenter floor, and they've been stored gently since. I picked up only because there were machines in the lot that I did want. If you google "technical specifications DEC 7000" there's a pretty detailed description of the laserbus/XMI scheme out there in pdf. > Interesting stuff, if you want to run a VAX the size of a > refrigerator. The last one I saw in the wild was a few years ago, but > there are quite a few in hobbyist hands. Someone (here?) has > described how to run one off of either single-phase or US 220VAC, but > they shipped from DEC with 3-phase power, IIRC. The floor cabinet models are 3-phase, but the rackmount system unit and the RM XMI crate are both 200-240VAC single-phase. The standard plug is a NEMA 6-15, so I'd guess it's not pulling more than 10A-12A peak. http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/SOC/QB0013PF.PDF A whole system, including processor, XMI cage, and a half-dozen BA350s, will fit in a full-height rack. Doc From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 9 22:47:17 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:47:17 -0800 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? References: <20070309163915.L81299@plum.flirble.org><024001c76272$58e86ed0$6600a8c0@vrsxp><20070309175544.N81299@plum.flirble.org> <45F21EC8.2040400@swbell.net> <f4eb766f0703091909q11c6e314i20bedb42460a000@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <032b01c762cf$301567d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > On 3/9/07, Patrick J. Jankowiak <recycler at swbell.net> wrote: >> The 8i has several rows of lights.. very nice. > > Until you have to replace 25% of them (as I did in my -8/i). Worth > the work, though. And the light panel PCB is hard to work on without damaging it. (I swear the traces are just waiting for an excuse to fall off. I actually went to the trouble of drawing the thing in Eagle, as I know it is only a matter of time until I need a new PCB.) Still my favorite, though. Vince From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 22:56:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 23:56:15 -0500 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45F23A6F.3080809@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter. >> Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver 4000/300 has >> one. > > It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus ones, and a Unibus one, > but they're all in my PDP-11's. Unibus SCSI... I *wish* I had one of those. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 23:03:10 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:03:10 -0500 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703091828w1c3d8971xecff1ba58fd1301f@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1HPoSc-0005X5-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> <f4eb766f0703091828w1c3d8971xecff1ba58fd1301f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F23C0E.4090401@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think a 11/750 makes a fine single-user VMS "workstation" ;-) Never trust a workstation that couldn't roll over you and smash you flat? 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 23:05:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:05:15 -0500 Subject: XMI goodies? In-Reply-To: <45F21FCE.8070603@mdrconsult.com> References: <45F21FCE.8070603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45F23C8B.4070803@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Is there any interest here in DEC XMI gear? Preferably cash or trade > interest.... ;) > > I have several rackmount XMI enclosures, a couple of CI and a *bunch* > of SCSI and ethernet boards with cab kits. They're about to go on eBay, > but I thought I'd check here to see if anyone's looking. > > Oh, yeah, I also have 5 or 6 star couplers and a bunch of Big Blue CI > cable, and a couple of HS<mumble> CI-SCSI adapters *without* their flash > cards. > > For that matter, I have 2 rackmount DEC7000 cabinets I'd like to see > disappear. One is the bare cabinet, the other has 2 procs and the > laserbus-XMI adapter intact. > > I'm supremely uninterested in crating or palletizing the enclosures, > so you'll need either to arrange that yourself or prepare to be > extorted. :) > > Reply off-list if interested. I'll be making a more specific > inventory this weekend. I'd love to have all of that stuff. (All of it. Really.) But you're a bit too far from me. 8-/ I'd love to make a rackmount VAX 6000 and a rackmount VAX 7000. Peace... Sridhar From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 9 23:18:53 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 23:18:53 -0600 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> OK Chuck. We can take a look at the Scientific American Ameteur Scientist. Its online somewhere, or I'll look up the article for those iterested. L.C. Stong did an article on an XY swinging pendulum, adjustable XY rates. knife edges and a funnel filled with a pencil thin stream of sand to drop onto black paper. Hows that for old as dirt? Cheers, Randy >From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Subject: Re: raster laser? >Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:50:05 -0800 > > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > Popular Electronics had a lissajous figure generator project to attach > > to a scope in XY mode. Just a couple of slowly frequency and amplitude > > ramping sine wave oscillators. I always wanted to drive some XY servo > > mirrors and put that on the wall for a laser light show. > >Doesn't Helmholtz show a rig like this in his "On the Sensations of >Tone" (circa 1863)? No lasers (not even incandescent light), but a >mechanical mirror-equipped rig to look at Lissajous figures. >Oscillographs are much older than electronics. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you?ll love. Compare products and save at MSN? Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 23:29:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:29:06 -0500 Subject: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation (Re: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)) Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703092129n50b8e792m74c486725eeb5ea6@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I think a 11/750 makes a fine single-user VMS "workstation" ;-) > > Never trust a workstation that couldn't roll over you and smash you flat? I almost had an 11/750 land on me, but I was able to coax it out of the side door of a Chevy Astro mini-Van (alone) without getting squished or pinched. That was a fun experience. Thinking about the whole "11/750 workstation" concept - I wonder if one could take a qbus mono framebuffer and hang it off of some flavor of Qniverter? It'd be glacial compared to a real VAXstation II or VAXstation 2000, but presuming the framebuffer doesn't depend on anything peculiar to POST on a MicroVAX II, it'd be slick to see. For "real" work on an 11/750, any flavor of DMA-capable Unibus comms interface (DEC DMF-32, Emulex CS21...) and an authentic ANSI-compatible dumb terminal (VT100, VT220...) is just fine (but back in the day, the "power users" had two terminals on their desk, along with a serial switch box to manage "multiple sessions" in hardware). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 23:32:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:32:59 -0500 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <20070310000714.A81299@plum.flirble.org> References: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070310000714.A81299@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703092132s5f811a20g755a4676ffcaa16d@mail.gmail.com> On 3/9/07, Andrew Back <andy at smokebelch.org> wrote: > I remember someone once patched the uVAX2000 firmware so they could > (kinda) support discs on the (not wholly implemented) SCSI. The uVAX2000 has a real 5380 chip, but the firmware side of things was decidedly not "standard" SCSI. I tried to fiddle with the patched ROMs a few years back, but never managed to get it working. It would have been nice, no matter how slow the SCSI implementation was, because it would have let me escape RD-series-disk-Hell on those tiny boxes. At the time I was trying this, folks were discarding 200MB-500MB SCSI disks as too small to bother with. It would have been great to pull a full-height RD54 out and replace it with a 500MB 3.5" disk that would be easy to stock spares for. Did anyone on the list ever get that uVAX2000 SCSI mod working? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 23:37:41 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:37:41 -0500 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> References: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com> <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703092137q980ad2aucdb87054bd448c7a@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> wrote: > OK Chuck. > We can take a look at the Scientific American Ameteur Scientist. I have that series of articles somewhere in a reprint collection - how to build nitrogen CO2 lasers and tunable dye lasers from scratch, then how to make holograms and lissajous patterns with modified speakers and function generators. I always wanted to build the lissajous rig, but never got past the component collecting stage. These days, with the ubiquity of laser levels and laser pointers, that's the cheap end of the project (I bought a laser level at the grocery store last month for $5, then pulled the lens out of it so it projects a spot, not a line, now. I was going to use it for a one-way RS-232 link, but it'll make a nice lissajous source). Just add Pink Floyd. ;-) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 23:40:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:40:29 -0500 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> References: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com> <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703092140m7fe05100v18e65c6d78446b51@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> wrote: > OK Chuck. > We can take a look at the Scientific American Ameteur Scientist. > Its online somewhere, or I'll look up the article for those iterested. Does anyone on the list have this collection (SciAm Amateur Scientist columns on CD-ROM)? http://www.ercb.com/brief/brief.0248.html I never knew they put them together on one set of disks. That'll take quite a while to read cover to cover. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 9 23:40:46 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:40:46 -0800 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703092132s5f811a20g755a4676ffcaa16d@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070310000714.A81299@plum.flirble.org> <f4eb766f0703092132s5f811a20g755a4676ffcaa16d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <p0624081ac217f4fc2088@[192.168.1.199]> At 12:32 AM -0500 3/10/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Did anyone on the list ever get that uVAX2000 SCSI mod working? All mine can do (or at least could in the late 90's) is format drives. The memory is bad, but I could still use it as a formatter. Somehow I think it is easier, and likely cheaper to simply get a better VAXstation, or an Alpha. Might not be as much fun, but I like my VMS faster! :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 23:54:58 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:54:58 -0500 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <p0624081ac217f4fc2088@192.168.1.199> References: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070310000714.A81299@plum.flirble.org> <f4eb766f0703092132s5f811a20g755a4676ffcaa16d@mail.gmail.com> <p0624081ac217f4fc2088@192.168.1.199> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703092154k34b26082vec95d82dd436f85e@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > At 12:32 AM -0500 3/10/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Did anyone on the list ever get that uVAX2000 SCSI mod working? > > All mine can do (or at least could in the late 90's) is format > drives. The memory is bad, but I could still use it as a formatter. My memory of things was that you first had to swap out the ROMs, then hang both a SCSI disk _and_ an RD disk off of the machine, _then_ patch a driver for the SCSI drive, then one could restore a saveset onto the SCSI disk and stop using the RD disk. Kind of a chicken-and-the-egg issue, but not insurmountable - just tedious. > Somehow I think it is easier, and likely cheaper to simply get a > better VAXstation, or an Alpha. Might not be as much fun, but I like > my VMS faster! :^) True enough, but at the time I was fiddling with all of this, I _had_ the uVAX 2000, and RD54s were $800-$1000 each while SCSI disks double that size were free or nearly so. SCSI-based VAXstations were nowhere close to free at the time, and I think a "noname" AT-sized Alpha motherboard was about $50-$100 w/0MB RAM. Given the hardware environment of the time, what I was doing made some modicum of sense. Now, it'd be just for the exercise of doing it, especially since if I _really_ just want to run VMS software and don't care about fiddling about with ancient disks and slow processors, I can throw a copy of VMS up on simh and get "real" work done (and given that my previous job was as a(n Open) VMS Administrator, I'm not that long out of using VMS 8-10 hours per day). Lately, though, I spend more time per month running simulated TOPS-20 than any flavor of VMS. Gotta finish ordering parts for that PANDA display so I can show it off. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 10 00:10:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 22:10:46 -0800 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> References: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com>, <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <45F1DB66.30037.3AAF53E5@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Mar 2007 at 23:18, Randy Dawson wrote: > Hows that for old as dirt? I wasn't being facetious; one thing that struck me when I read the Helmholtz work was his drawings of waveforms and even spectra of sound waves. Very accurate; but how did he get them in 1863? Some of the equipment was darned clever. http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Rudolf_Koenig_Apparatus/Vibra tion_Microscope/Vibration_Microscope.html Lissajous figures date from about 1815: http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Oscillations_and_Waves/Lissaj ous_Figures/Lissajous_Figures.html Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 00:21:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 01:21:00 -0500 Subject: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation (Re: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703092129n50b8e792m74c486725eeb5ea6@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703092129n50b8e792m74c486725eeb5ea6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F24E4C.700@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > I think a 11/750 makes a fine single-user VMS "workstation" ;-) >> >> Never trust a workstation that couldn't roll over you and smash you flat? > > I almost had an 11/750 land on me, but I was able to coax it out of > the side door of a Chevy Astro mini-Van (alone) without getting > squished or pinched. That was a fun experience. I once (with the help of a bunch of other people) was attempting to unload a DECsystem 5810 (a VAX 6000-300, except with MIPS CPUs -- I got the machine from Dave McGuire the first time I met him, and I still have it) from a rental truck down the ramp and it started to tip off the side of the ramp towards me. I wasn't standing at the time. It landed on me as I was kneeling down. I caught it. Now it may seem that sounds implausibly superhuman, but I'd probably qualify it as thoroughly stupid. You see, I held it up only for a split second. If it had been another split second, it would have crushed me dead. No more Sridhar. The people helping me reacted quickly and got it tilted back up before my strength gave out, which, obviously, it was about to. In any case, I felt *sore* the next day. Especially my neck. > Thinking about the whole "11/750 workstation" concept - I wonder if > one could take a qbus mono framebuffer and hang it off of some flavor > of Qniverter? It'd be glacial compared to a real VAXstation II or > VAXstation 2000, but presuming the framebuffer doesn't depend on > anything peculiar to POST on a MicroVAX II, it'd be slick to see. For > "real" work on an 11/750, any flavor of DMA-capable Unibus comms > interface (DEC DMF-32, Emulex CS21...) and an authentic > ANSI-compatible dumb terminal (VT100, VT220...) is just fine (but back > in the day, the "power users" had two terminals on their desk, along > with a serial switch box to manage "multiple sessions" in hardware). I once asked a question as to whether it would be possible to build a VAX 6000-based workstation by hanging a Qbus framebuffer from a Unibux slot hooked to a VAXBI bridge in a VAXBI slot in a secondary BI cage hooked to a VAX 6000 through an XMI->VAXBI bridge. The consensus was that it probably wouldn't work. 8-) I'm going to try anyway. I just haven't had the time. Peace... Sridhar From trag at io.com Sat Mar 10 00:22:27 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:22:27 -0600 Subject: Shameless Plug - 74xxxx series ICs In-Reply-To: <200703100559.l2A5wbYk049020@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703100559.l2A5wbYk049020@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <a04310101c217fc72848d@[192.168.1.5]> >Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:40:11 -0600 >From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Shameless Plug - 74xxxx series ICs >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Message-ID: <45F1C62B.5000107 at yahoo.co.uk> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > >Doc Shipley wrote: >> I was up there yesterday and they have literally >> 50-60 feet of 6' shelves, nothing but 74xxxx ICs. >Seriously though, thanks for letting us know - personally I'd rather deal with >people that someone knows personally than some random ebay auction etc. MC Howard is about a mile from my house. I've shopped there for years. The only bad thing I can dredge up to say about them is that prices may vary wildly. Sometimes they charged me $.50 to program a handful of EPROMs, other times it was closer to a dollar or two. I've had many happy shopping hours there. There. Now someone who has personally dealt with them has recommended them. :-) I would have mentioned them myself, but it just never occurred to me that they were that rare/sought-after/valuable. I guess one takes the familiar for granted. Bob, my favorite sales person there, retired last year, but the other folks seem nice enough. I was used to Bob. All the times I've been there, they've never had any WD92C32s. I'm still looking for those at something close to $1 each. I've found folks who'll sell them at $5 each. I did find a handful of 92C16s at Howard's. Found some 68882s there, one at 50 MHz once. They still have a few at 16 MHz. I never found any 53C80s there, but I've found some 85C30s. They have a book shelf of old datasheet books for browsing and Bob used to make me photocopies if I found a chip that interested me. They also have a large assortment of housings and plugs and receptacles and sockets and such. Handy to have nearby when you're trying to get things to mate. Jeff Walther From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 01:21:40 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 02:21:40 -0500 Subject: DWBUA fun (was Re: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation) Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703092321w75a6d948vf904c1bb33c394a7@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > I think a 11/750 makes a fine single-user VMS "workstation" ;-) > >> > >> Never trust a workstation that couldn't roll over you and smash you flat? > > > > I almost had an 11/750 land on me, but I was able to coax it out of > > the side door of a Chevy Astro mini-Van (alone) without getting > > squished or pinched. That was a fun experience. > > I once (with the help of a bunch of other people) was attempting to > unload a DECsystem 5810... > It landed on me as I was kneeling down. I caught it. I think I've heard people reference this incident on the list. I didn't know it was quite as spectactular as all of that - sounds like a combination of luck and quick action on the part of all present. > > Thinking about the whole "11/750 workstation" concept - I wonder if > > one could take a qbus mono framebuffer and hang it off of some flavor > > of Qniverter? > I once asked a question as to whether it would be possible to build a > VAX 6000-based workstation by hanging a Qbus framebuffer from a Unibux > slot hooked to a VAXBI bridge in a VAXBI slot in a secondary BI cage > hooked to a VAX 6000 through an XMI->VAXBI bridge. The consensus was > that it probably wouldn't work. 8-) Hmm... I have an 8300 in the basement with a non-working DWBUA (it used to work, about 13 years ago but that was before the machine got moved). My recollection of it was that (when it was working), the DWBUA was ok in a native VAXBI environment like the 82xx/83xx, but that when you started stacking bus converter on bus converter, it didn't take much to get things to the point of violating timing maximums on certain things. We had a problem with a Qbus COMBOARD being stuck in the same Qbus as a TLZ04 controller on an early model VAX 4000 since the CPU bus _wasn't_ Qbus, and there were enough subtle changes that hardware bus timeouts came into play, especially when the TLZ04 controller "went away" for a bit - I think officially, the timeouts were too stringent, but had never been a problem up to that model of VAX. I have to seriously wonder if you could get traffic from the Qbus, over the Q/Univerter, over the DWBUA over the XMI-BI bridge (forget the model #) before something timed out somewhere. No reason not to attempt it, but if it doesn't work the first time, the chain might just be too much to handle. -ethan P.S. - the problem I'm now having with my DWBUA might be a wonky UET (Unibus Exerciser/Terminator). The UET has to work perfectly and respond correctly when the DWBUA talks to it, or the DWBUA fails self-test. Could be cables, could be bad components, or could just be the phase of the moon. Either way, I installed a DWBUA correctly once, and now it appears to have been a fluke. It hasn't worked right since I moved it. :-( I have the docs, and according to the various device status registers, it acts like the DWBUA isn't seeing the right things from the UET. *slaps forehead* I have just the thing to check it out - a not-yet-assembled bare-board UA-11. I think assembling that just moved up the priority chain to sometime in the first 1/2 of this year! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 10 01:39:57 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 02:39:57 -0500 Subject: raster laser? In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703092140m7fe05100v18e65c6d78446b51@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com> <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> <f4eb766f0703092140m7fe05100v18e65c6d78446b51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20C45C87-4AA1-4ECE-8DB5-64098E7D8DD4@neurotica.com> On Mar 10, 2007, at 12:40 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> OK Chuck. >> We can take a look at the Scientific American Ameteur Scientist. >> Its online somewhere, or I'll look up the article for those >> iterested. > > Does anyone on the list have this collection (SciAm Amateur Scientist > columns on CD-ROM)? I have them...I ordered them the day they were announced. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From useddec at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 02:06:56 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 02:06:56 -0600 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand) In-Reply-To: <68E983F1-CBDD-4782-A95A-D716BFE8E4A3@mac.com> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081323280.27921@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <68E983F1-CBDD-4782-A95A-D716BFE8E4A3@mac.com> Message-ID: <624966d60703100006m58df9e7er81dec402dfb7aabc@mail.gmail.com> As one of the few "dreaded dealers" on the list (I heard there are others, but don't know of any), I have to agree that VT50's and VT52's are becoming rather scarce. There are still a few parts around. As far as the the VT100 family, most models, except the 103, and the parts are still out there. The keyboards are getting harder to find. I just turned down some 131's and others last week for lack of storage. The VT220's are also still common, as are the the 320's, 420's, and the newer models. Most units I see don't have keyboards. The 6 flavors of the 330 ( and their parts) are a lot easier to find than 340 and 340+. Some of the larger monitors(VR290, VR297, VR319, VRC21, etc,) are more difficult to find than the VR201, VR241, etc. Parts are still around for some. I hope this helps. Paul Anderson On 3/8/07, Seth Morabito <sethm at mac.com> wrote: > > > On Mar 8, 2007, at 1:24 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > > On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >> On 3/8/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > >>> On Mar 8, 2007, at 1:55 PM, Richard wrote: > >>>> If you do and don't want the VT52, I'll buy it :) > >>> > >>> You're just a terminal-obsessed freak, and you know it! ;) > >> > >> For stuff of the era, the VT-52 is a very handy terminal. I don't > >> recall my results with a VT100 or CiTOH-101 (clone), but I was *not* > >> able to use the VTEDIT macro under OS/8 with a VT220 in VT52 > >> emulation > >> mode. The emulation just wasn't good enough. I suppose one could > >> find an open-source terminal program and ensure the VT-52 emulation > >> was up to snuff, but for a plug-it-in-and-get-to-work solution, for > >> pre-VT52 software, I recommend a real VT52. > > > > Where can you get real VT52s nowadays? I haven't seen one on Ebay > > for at > > least three years. > > I'd love to know myself. I've wanted one for *years*, but I've never > found one. > > Hell, I can't even find VT100s anymore. About ten years ago you > couldn't walk down the street without tripping over VT100s. > > -Seth > Santa Clara, CA, USA > From erik at baigar.de Sat Mar 10 02:10:49 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:10:49 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <17F73627-905A-495F-9174-7058F59D2850@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703100835160.8291-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Hi Roger, thank you very much for your email and the time you spent in listing the Elliott's assembler language! So you are one of the experts in this field! On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Roger Holmes wrote: > Erik, well done with the reverse engineering. Thanks. > Then I looked at the pictures, and saw it was made by my old > employers, Marconi Avionics who took over Elliott Brothers, and > continued to make 920 series machines. I think there were 12 bit > versions made by one of the divisions, though I am surprised they > were still making them in the 1980s. Yes, the unit was made after 1986 I think. One quy in the rec.aviation.military claimed, that the box might be from early tornados as I mentioned in my original posting. I do not know how long development of such an aircraft takes but the first take-off was in 1974 I think, so this would match the design of this box wuite well - what do you think? > One part of Elliott Brothers became GEC Computers (based in > Borehamwood). Yes, that matches - the core memory module already has the label GEC. So this is (as I suspected) older than the CPU and taken maybe from a different design?! > One of your labels is from Airborne Displays Division based at the > same Rochester site as I worked. This was also part of Marconi > Avionics, and the company later changed its name to GEC Avionics. I > worked on compilers, linkers and other utility software for the 18 > bit 920s before moving on to the Zilog Z8001. Hey, than you are a valuable expert on these - do you have got any source of intormation about the 920s? > Erik, could you tell me if the instruction code is anything like this: > 0 Load B (indexing) register and the Q register (shift extension) RIGHT > 1 Add to accumulator RIGHT > 2 Negate and add to accumulator RIGHT > 3 Store the Q register RIGHT > 4 Load accumulator RIGHT > 5 Store accumulator RIGHT > 6 And to accumulator RIGHT > 7 Jump if zero RIGHT > 8 Jump RIGHT > 9 Jump if negative RIGHT - all three jumps are relative ones > 10 Increment RIGHT > 11 Store program counter (for function return) SIMILAR - This stores PC and then does a table jump > 12 Multiply RIGHT, unsigned multiplication > 13 Divide HMMM, the command takes very long but the results are very strange. I thought it might be some type of random number generation by an irreducible polynomal, but it is definitively not Divide. Maybe here is something different or wrong with the microcode. > 14 Shift In PART: Here exist many subgroups of commands including shift left/right. Also the Q as you call it can be transferred to Accu and vice versa. There als is a MTA (MoveToAccu as I call it) which is a two-word instruction (most others are one-word) and transfers the word following this command into Accu. About 16 bit patterns have (at least to me now) the same meaning in this segment. > 15 Input/Output and special (like interrupt return) Yes, in part as well. Commands for sending and receiving via the serial links I found here. > 16 to 31, as above but indexed by B register. NOPE - The box is 12-bit and does not have got this block. EVERYTHING is done via the index register I as I called it. So ####### # # # ##### ###### # # ## # # # # # # # # # # ##### # # # # ##### #### # # # # # ##### # # # ###### # # # # # # # # # # ####### #### # # ###### # # # # the box is a 12-bit version of the Elliot series of Computer. Lot of work for rediscovering the instruction set of the 920 Elliot... Roger, do you have got any detailed information on these you are willing to share with me! I am familar with the above mentioned instruction set, but some details are still open and perhaps studying the Elliot would help to solve the remaining problems??!?!?!! > In early versions of the 920, the B and Q registers were the same > register and it and the program counter were held in memory. There In this box the registers are stored in "batteries" of 74xxx flip flops on the processor boards. > were four levels of interrupt and a set of these registers for each, > held in location 0 to 7. The high end of memory held a paper tape > bootstrap, in later versions, this was just copied into core when the > machine was initialised. Interesting. The Programmer Electronic Control starts execution at 0x0a0 after reset. But of course the application was different and the operation software was completely loaded via the big plug boefore operation. > If this indeed a military machine, you can be sure the memory was > erase by flipping every bit backwards and forwards several hundred > times to remove any trace magnetism before it was released from the RAF. Yes you are probably right. I thought just in case there are some fragements inside it would have been interesting to study them in order to learn about the instruction set. I am sure the unit supports interrupts (one for each serial port (panavia link I think) and maybe there is an additional for the timer. This timer has a reload register and thus can be programmed to arbitrary intervals (12bit, running at 2MHz). But up to now I was not able to read or write it nor occured an interrupt. Here studying the Elliot would really be inspiring - I am very sure that they reused the know how here as well... Roger, thank you very much for your posting and the valuable input... Best regards, Erik. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Mar 10 02:26:56 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:26:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: CompuColor II ends... In-Reply-To: <E1HPoTL-0001NQ-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HPoTL-0001NQ-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703100026170.27997@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Richard wrote: > Five bids and it closed at $1,124.00 > > That's out of my budget, whew. According to old-computers.com, that machine doesn't seem very interesting. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From erik at baigar.de Sat Mar 10 02:31:35 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:31:35 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <20070309081402.32920@gmx.net> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703100929070.8362-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Hi Arno, thank you very much for your email and the great web-link. > (Not directly related to your current project, but I immediately > thought of it when I read "Tornado" - because I saw the Moving Map > Display there - and noticed you're also from Germany) I assume you're > aware of the massive amounts of aeronautic, military and electronic > stuff > > www.helmut-singer.de > No, I did not know this before. But looking at the special offers there are some quite interesting items to extend the private test- equipment pool... Thanks, Erik. From rivie at ridgenet.net Sat Mar 10 03:10:55 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 01:10:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: DWBUA fun (was Re: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703092321w75a6d948vf904c1bb33c394a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703092321w75a6d948vf904c1bb33c394a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0703100107180.6950@stench.no.domain> On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > My recollection of it was that (when it was working), the > DWBUA was ok in a native VAXBI environment like the 82xx/83xx, but > that when you started stacking bus converter on bus converter, it > didn't take much to get things to the point of violating timing > maximums on certain things. I am aware of an installation that involved a UNIBUS attached to a VAX 6520, but that required a microcode modification to the DWBUA. I don't know the details of the modification. That would be UNIBUS->BI->XMI->NMI. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Mar 9 17:36:01 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:36:01 -0500 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) Message-ID: <0JEN001IFTHOJ1R1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) > From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:19:27 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > If you want to run VMS it's fairly available. >> >> What would be the most appropriate version to run on a MicroVAX II or >> III? Are there installation tape media images available somewhere? > >Realistically? Any version you can get on a pair of good TK50's (as I >recall even V5.5 is 2 TK50 tapes). I've run V5.5 on my MicroVAX II before >turning it into a PDP-11/73. I've got V7.2 on my MicroVAX III. However, I >was able to copy the 7.2 install CD over DECnet and write it out to an RA72 >and install from that, in order to setup my MVIII. V5.5 runs well on MV-II with full load of ram. If your less than full ram consider 4.7 though 5.2 also runs ok that way. >>It's not the suggestion you want, but you should think about getting a >VAXstation 3100 or 4000 series machine. With those and a SCSI CD-ROM that >is capable of doing 512-byte blocks you can easily install OpenVMS, and then >remotely boot the MicroVAX II/III as a cluster node. > >At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter. Another option is after netbooting BACKUP you can do an image copy the disk to the MVII, either net is slow but still faster than TK50!!! I've done this. The 3100 I use has a small (100mb RZ2x) and it's a bootable system though cramped and I can use backup and image copy it to RD54 sized drives via 'net. That way I clone the OS to machines then tweek it (system name and all that stuff). Saves a bunch of time and messing with TK50s that tend to do annoying things. IF you have a SCSI adaptor (even if you can't leave it in the system) you can create a disk on a 3100 or whatever and then transport the adaptor and media to the MVII and copy to the MSCP drive. Allison From Ming_Mae at hotmail.com Sat Mar 10 02:19:20 2007 From: Ming_Mae at hotmail.com (Ming_Mae at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 02:19:20 -0600 Subject: An old email Atari Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV1291C3492B360A5782DD92F47F0@phx.gbl> "the resident Atari Maniac with a side fetish for Mindset and Corvus systems, now playing with a VAX.....Curt" Just a blind shot in the dark trying to find someone who knows about Corvus Systems and Atari 8-bits> We had heard one time that Ataris had beenn hooked to a Corvus system and were wondering if you had any info. Thank you for your time -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/710 - Release Date: 3/4/2007 1:58 PM From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Mar 10 03:23:36 2007 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:23:36 +0100 Subject: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation (Re: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)) In-Reply-To: <45F24E4C.700@gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703092129n50b8e792m74c486725eeb5ea6@mail.gmail.com> <45F24E4C.700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070310092336.GY18564@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2007-03-10 01:21:00 -0500, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > I think a 11/750 makes a fine single-user VMS "workstation" ;-) > > > Never trust a workstation that couldn't roll over you and smash you flat? > > > > I almost had an 11/750 land on me, but I was able to coax it out of > > the side door of a Chevy Astro mini-Van (alone) without getting > > squished or pinched. That was a fun experience. > > I once (with the help of a bunch of other people) was attempting to > unload a DECsystem 5810 (a VAX 6000-300, except with MIPS CPUs -- I got > the machine from Dave McGuire the first time I met him, and I still have > it) from a rental truck down the ramp and it started to tip off the side > of the ramp towards me. I wasn't standing at the time. It landed on me > as I was kneeling down. I caught it. We (three friends and myself) once brought my VAX 6320 down into a friend's basement. The box fittet the stairs quite exactly and all four of us had quite aching bones for a month. OTOH, I don't think that this box will come /out/ there ever. Maybe except if being cutted down into pieces... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: "really soon now": an unspecified period of time, likly to the second : be greater than any reasonable definition of "soon". From andy at smokebelch.org Sat Mar 10 03:34:33 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:34:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: XMI goodies? In-Reply-To: <45F22800.5060709@mdrconsult.com> References: <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> <45F22800.5060709@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20070310092645.J81299@plum.flirble.org> On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Doc Shipley wrote: >> I haven't the foggiest idea what XMI gear is :-) > > It's one of DEC's more arcane I/O busses. I've only ever seen it attached > to VAX6000, DEC7000 and VAX7000, and DEC10000 systems. I don't know if any > other systms used it. I used to work on VAX7000s at British Gas and one day my boss decided we needed another to test out patches and that it had to be a 7000 to match production. So I duly found a secondhand machine and arranged for it to be installed. But he wasn't prepared to pay for HSJ controllers etc, and IIRC we ended up converting one bus to another so we could then attach a DSSI adapter and small shelf with a couple of disks in. And for some reason this config was *incredibly* slow to boot as a result. I remember developers calling 30 mins afer loss of service to see when it would be back up and saying "Sorry, it's still crashing" (dumping). Was a 10000 essentially a 7000 with tons of batteries in for UPS, or the VAX that could be reconfigured into an Alpha? Andrew From cc at corti-net.de Sat Mar 10 04:01:19 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:01:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: 11/45 revisited In-Reply-To: <004001c762a9$be248d10$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <000f01c7629a$2d5e2a20$6600a8c0@BILLING> <004001c762a9$be248d10$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703101050550.24832@linuxserv.home> On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Jay West wrote: > I was looking at the power control board for the H742A (5409730) that is > supposed to be putting out my +15v. I couldn't find any schematics on this > board but the system engineering prints appear to indicate they should be > present. In the absence of schematics (and any obvious scorching) I figured I have the complete set that came with my 11/45. The schematics are on the sheet titled "POWER CONTROL BD.", number 5409730-0-1. And I had exactly the same fault in my H742 during operation. The fan was stuck so the transistor and other parts got really hot... > 1) The critter is Motorola "DEC3000" which I'm betting is a DEC house part > number (since ECG xref shows nothing && it starts with DEC). Can anyone clue > me in to what part that really is? Both the transistor and the schematics say Motorola MJ3000. Please also check the zener D3, a 1N5353B (16V) that is connectec between the base of the transistor and ground. I guess it is shorted. > 2) Are the schematics for 5409730 around so I can try to understand it a > little better? Yes, I'll try to scan it (not easy because of the paper size). Christian From pechter at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 07:05:40 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:05:40 -0500 Subject: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation (Re: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)) In-Reply-To: <20070310092336.GY18564@lug-owl.de> References: <f4eb766f0703092129n50b8e792m74c486725eeb5ea6@mail.gmail.com> <45F24E4C.700@gmail.com> <20070310092336.GY18564@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <ee5521f80703100505x41faa876vb6cb552b48f1a77d@mail.gmail.com> The DEC VS11/VSV11 kind of did the earliest "Vax workstation." It was a Qbus graphics subsystem with 20 inch monitor which hooked up to a Unibus interface. Bill On 3/10/07, Jan-Benedict Glaw <jbglaw at lug-owl.de> wrote: > > On Sat, 2007-03-10 01:21:00 -0500, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> > wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > I think a 11/750 makes a fine single-user VMS "workstation" ;-) > > > > Never trust a workstation that couldn't roll over you and smash you > flat? > > > > > > I almost had an 11/750 land on me, but I was able to coax it out of > > > the side door of a Chevy Astro mini-Van (alone) without getting > > > squished or pinched. That was a fun experience. > > > > I once (with the help of a bunch of other people) was attempting to > > unload a DECsystem 5810 (a VAX 6000-300, except with MIPS CPUs -- I got > > the machine from Dave McGuire the first time I met him, and I still have > > it) from a rental truck down the ramp and it started to tip off the side > > of the ramp towards me. I wasn't standing at the time. It landed on me > > as I was kneeling down. I caught it. > > We (three friends and myself) once brought my VAX 6320 down into a > friend's basement. The box fittet the stairs quite exactly and all > four of us had quite aching bones for a month. OTOH, I don't think > that this box will come /out/ there ever. Maybe except if being cutted > down into pieces... > > MfG, JBG > > -- > Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de > +49-172-7608481 > Signature of: "really soon now": an unspecified period of > time, likly to > the second : be greater than any > reasonable definition > of "soon". > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 10 07:12:33 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:12:33 -0800 Subject: raster laser? - Ameteur Scientist In-Reply-To: <20C45C87-4AA1-4ECE-8DB5-64098E7D8DD4@neurotica.com> References: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com> <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> <f4eb766f0703092140m7fe05100v18e65c6d78446b51@mail.gmail.com> <20C45C87-4AA1-4ECE-8DB5-64098E7D8DD4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F2AEC1.8000102@sbcglobal.net> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Does anyone on the list have this collection (SciAm Amateur Scientist >> columns on CD-ROM)? > > I have them...I ordered them the day they were announced. > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > They are available on ePay for $24.00 Bob From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Mar 10 10:32:38 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:32:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Scientific American (was raster laser?) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703092140m7fe05100v18e65c6d78446b51@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com> <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> <f4eb766f0703092140m7fe05100v18e65c6d78446b51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703101131110.21959@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Does anyone on the list have this collection (SciAm Amateur Scientist > columns on CD-ROM)? > > http://www.ercb.com/brief/brief.0248.html I do. I got mine from: http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/m2071.html Price is $24.00. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sat Mar 10 11:03:05 2007 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:03:05 -0500 Subject: An old email Atari In-Reply-To: <BAY104-DAV1291C3492B360A5782DD92F47F0@phx.gbl> References: <BAY104-DAV1291C3492B360A5782DD92F47F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <AF4DEE51-C527-4448-A992-29553A2D97BA@adelphia.net> What would you like to know about Corvus and Atari? Loooong time ago I ran a Multi-user BBS system with 2 Atari 800's and a Corvus 10mb disk attached to each Atari through joystick ports #3 and 4. Now THOSE were the days! David Barnes davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix On Mar 10, 2007, at 3:19 AM, <Ming_Mae at hotmail.com> wrote: > "the resident Atari Maniac with a side fetish for Mindset and Corvus > systems, > now playing with a VAX.....Curt" > > Just a blind shot in the dark trying to find someone who knows > about Corvus > Systems and Atari 8-bits> > > We had heard one time that Ataris had beenn hooked to a Corvus > system and > were wondering if you had any info. > > Thank you for your time > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/710 - Release Date: > 3/4/2007 > 1:58 PM > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 10 11:13:15 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:13:15 -0600 Subject: raster laser? - Ameteur Scientist Message-ID: <BAY120-F10DB7E2B02C8BF30F21284BA7F0@phx.gbl> They are on the web if you look hard enough. Unfortunatley the whole collection is a mess. They should have distributed it in PDFs of the original pages to maintain the feeling of the originals. But NO, they html the whole thing poorly, and the original art is low res too. I am fortunate to have the university nearby, and there is nothing like flipping through old SciAm binders. The computer ads from the 50s-60s are incredible. where's my flying car? I want the future as depicted in the magazine. If you can have access to these, also notice the employment ads. Everybody was in the exciting field of computers, a rocket scientist, or electronics engineer. Dont forget to check out the Amateur Scientist book too. There is a relay based tic-tac toe machine, farmer fox, goose computer too. It is a collection of some of the best articles. In the magazine, Marvin Gardner's Mathematical puzzles column too! lots of binary and computer algorithms foretelling the future are in there. I grew up in the NASA environment. As A kid I got to go in the clean rooms and see the spacecraft. Then they brought me into the computer room to play tic tac-toe at the console. I want to go back... Or surround my basement with vaccum column tape drives and a console of switches and blinkinlights. Nevermind its a PC runing the show, but its running a s/360 emulator.. Grab your pocket protectors and slide rules, come over to my house! Randy >From: Bob Rosenbloom <bobalan at sbcglobal.net> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Subject: Re: raster laser? - Ameteur Scientist >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:12:33 -0800 > > > >Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>Does anyone on the list have this collection (SciAm Amateur Scientist >>>columns on CD-ROM)? >> >> I have them...I ordered them the day they were announced. >> >> -Dave >> >>--Dave McGuire >>Port Charlotte, FL >> >They are available on ePay for $24.00 > >Bob _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you?ll love. Compare products and save at MSN? Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Mar 10 11:35:14 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:35:14 -0500 Subject: An old email Atari In-Reply-To: <AF4DEE51-C527-4448-A992-29553A2D97BA@adelphia.net> References: <BAY104-DAV1291C3492B360A5782DD92F47F0@phx.gbl> <AF4DEE51-C527-4448-A992-29553A2D97BA@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <45F2EC52.2080600@atarimuseum.com> Atari was working directly with Corvus and actually provided the Source to Atari Dos 2.0D which was modified to boot from an Atari 800's front controller jacks 3&4 from a multiplexer. Atari's also had support for the Corvus Mirror which allowed backups to highly unreliable VCR tapes - you were better off leaving your data on the HD and risking it to crash over storing your data on VHS tapes ;-) Fordham Prep in the Bronx, NY run by Father Nick Lombardi had at one time the worlds largest Atari-Corvus network with 64 Atari 800's connected through daisy-chained multiplexers to a Corvus HD. All of the 800's had a special OS board called "The Integrator" that contained modified OS code to automatically boot from a Corvus HD with no boot disk. Sadly, Fr. Nick went on to other duties and in 1997 the new head of the computer room decided to throw the entire network, 800's and Corvus away to replace them with PC's :-( The Integrator was a product designed by David Small of Gadgets by Small, who is also famous for The Magic Sac which was a cartridge that plugged into an Atari ST allowing it to run as a Macintosh. The was a bit of contriversy over the whole Magic Sac ordeal -- To use the cart you needed an old set of Mac ROM's, people were actually pulling them directly out of Apple's Dumpsters from upgrades that were performed. Apple got wind of this and a whole mess followed. I don't fully remember all of the details off hand, but it was written and reported in several Atari magazines in late 80's as well as on several BBS message boards, also on the Genie message boards as well as I recall. During power up, with an Integrator installed, by pressing the Option button on the keyboard the internal Integrator OS would display and allow the user to change settings on how to boot up, create an auto-RAMDISK,copy contents from the HD directlty to RAMDISK and other features. Atari had slated for 1984 for there to be a Corvus Omninet card for the Atari 1090XL Expansion System which was a 5 slot Expansion Chasis that connected to Atari's new line of XL computer systems. Unfortunately the 1090XL was not released and canceled when the Tramiels took over Atari and all expansion cards for it were canceled as well. Curt David Barnes wrote: > What would you like to know about Corvus and Atari? Loooong time ago > I ran a Multi-user BBS system with 2 Atari 800's and a Corvus 10mb > disk attached to each Atari through joystick ports #3 and 4. Now > THOSE were the days! > > > David Barnes > > davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net > OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix > > > On Mar 10, 2007, at 3:19 AM, <Ming_Mae at hotmail.com> wrote: > >> "the resident Atari Maniac with a side fetish for Mindset and Corvus >> systems, >> now playing with a VAX.....Curt" >> >> Just a blind shot in the dark trying to find someone who knows about >> Corvus >> Systems and Atari 8-bits> >> >> We had heard one time that Ataris had beenn hooked to a Corvus system >> and >> were wondering if you had any info. >> >> Thank you for your time >> >> --No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/710 - Release Date: 3/4/2007 >> 1:58 PM >> > > From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 10 07:55:15 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:55:15 +0000 Subject: somewhat OT: configure and mterm was Re: Vintage terminals In-Reply-To: <200703091536.KAA06677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200703091341.l29Df6Zj018572@floodgap.com> <200703091536.KAA06677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45F2B8C3.4040603@gjcp.net> der Mouse wrote: > The thing is, configure is an excellent place to hide a malicious > grappling hook: it is frequently run by na?ve installers, not > uncommonly as root; by the nature of what it does, it is hard to > sandbox (for example, it *must* be able to compile and run new > programs); it is large and comparatively difficult to read over for > human verification. Well, if you're such a paranoid freak about it, only compile in a virtual machine. Or, roll your own Makefiles from scratch. Or read through configure.in and generate your own configure script. Or all three. Gordon From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 10 12:03:17 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:03:17 -0600 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers In-Reply-To: <E1HPrhH-0003oe-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BAY120-F218A56241DB285CCB44A4BA7F0@phx.gbl> Richard, You are right, they skipped the whole branch of computer evolution where the real scientific computing was done. The computer as an IC and electronics today would not exist without the bootstrap of mainframe based circuit design onto 6800/MIPS. Without Sun, HP, Apollo the next gen CPU ICs could not be placed and routed. Engineers needed to interact in realtime with the design at a graphics workstation to get the job done, to create the IC masks. You could not lay it out in rubylith tape any more. The problem was not the design or architecture, it was interconnect complexity. The autorouters could not connect the logic. (lee's algorithm, later Cooper and Chyan, gridless) Lost, sadly was the machine between then and now, the Graphics Supercomputer. In an effort to add computational speed to graphics and scientific visualazation, two vendors went head to head on this problem, Ardent and Stellar. If you were around at the time, and saw one of these I would love to hear from you. The performance was truly spectacular. I had a chance to use one for a couple of years, and it still comes pretty close to current GPU tec in graphics performance. With pipeline vector processor and compiler to unroll loops it was WOW. Todays Ghz processors cannot beat a vector machine in computation, Titan had a 16 Mhz 1K floating point vector ALU. I am currently working with Ardent/Stellar/Stardent Dore' visualization library from these machines. It compiles clean from the freebsd ports collection, and the examples work in xfree86. I have a few Sillicon Graphics Iris and Indys too. Are there any graphics guys on the list? Randy Dawson >From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers >Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:52:39 -0700 > >I bought this from dvdplanet the other day (good deal: $15) and >watched it recently. > >They seemed to skip the entire minicomputer/workstation phase and >jumped straight from mainframes to the personal computer. > >What was interesting though is the collection of footage that they >used throughout. I spotted what looked like footage of an HP terminal >factory, manufacturing 2621's. On the shelves in the background were >2648 style cabinets. It was a brief clip, but I felt "cool" knowing >that I was one of the few people who would recognize the equipment! >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> _________________________________________________________________ With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few simple tips. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 10 12:10:43 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:10:43 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:03:17 -0600. <BAY120-F218A56241DB285CCB44A4BA7F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1HQ61j-0002vn-00@xmission.xmission.com> Yes, I'm a graphics guy. I remember that Stardent; it had an interesting "Z blt" whereby it would blt an image and an associated Z buffer chunk that would be put through the Z buffer compare operation. The result was that you could render a high quality phong sphere to external memory and then Z blt it all over the place for high quality molecular modelling. Pretty cool, although I don't know what other applications could have used the feature beyond molecular modelling. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From andy at smokebelch.org Sat Mar 10 12:52:15 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:52:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Meiko pictures. Message-ID: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> So I went into the erm, server room, and pulled apart the Meiko nodes and took some pictures. Apologies for the poor quality, all I had was a camera phone, not so great lighting (and an unsteady hand)... CS/860 (a.k.a. Concerto) : MK083 x 1 (Sparcstation 1+ host and link adapters etc) MK086 x 1 (Twin i860 + transputers) http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/CS860.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/CS860b.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK083.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK083b.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK086.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK086b.jpg CS/1 : MK009 x 4 (Quad transputer compute element w/256K) MK021 x 1 (8MB 'mass store', not sure if it has SCSI option) MK014 x 1 (Local host with monitor/boot ROMs, RS232 & GPIB) MK015 x 1 (RGB+S display element w/32K) http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/CS1.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/CS1back.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/CS1back2.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/CS1cage.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK009.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK014.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK015.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK015b.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK021.jpg And also an MK026 PC ISA link adapter. http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/MK026.jpg All of which I have no software for, yet... (fingers and toes crossed) And can anyone tell me which IBM mainframe I removed this CPU from (I've forgotten!) ? : http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/IBM.jpg And for nosey folks some shamefully dull photos of the server room/workshop, and floor of artists studios block (almost rerelict building) where it's located : http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/workshop.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/meiko/floor.jpg (where I get to stash more stuff amongst other folks crap) Andrew ---------------- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Mar 10 13:44:55 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:44:55 -0600 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F218A56241DB285CCB44A4BA7F0@phx.gbl> References: <BAY120-F218A56241DB285CCB44A4BA7F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <45F30AB7.2000107@pacbell.net> Randy Dawson wrote: ... > Lost, sadly was the machine between then and now, the Graphics > Supercomputer. In an effort to add computational speed to graphics and > scientific visualazation, two vendors went head to head on this problem, > Ardent and Stellar. > If you were around at the time, and saw one of these I would love to > hear from you. The performance was truly spectacular. I had a chance > to use one for a couple of years, and it still comes pretty close to > current GPU tec in graphics performance. With pipeline vector processor > and compiler to unroll loops it was WOW. Todays Ghz processors cannot > beat a vector machine in computation, Titan had a 16 Mhz 1K floating > point vector ALU. Randy, no doubt you know a lot more about the ardent/stellar/stardent stuff than me. I was aware of it and I once got hold of the design spec for the TOE processor (the 4x4 pixel "stamper"). However, I think you aren't aware of how sophisticated todays GPUs are. 16 MHz * 1K flops = 16 Gflops. A single top end GPU is more like 500 GFLOPS (single prec only, though). Today's GPUs have myriad pixel formats, including ARGB with an FP32 for each component. Pixel shaders are highly programmable. A single GPU can have > 80 GB/sec of bandwidth to DRAM (not cache). The TOE processor was a fixed point affair with limited, fixed point precision. There is no comparison. I wish I still had the spec to make a more concrete comparison. A google search turned up this quote: With the Dore' rendering package [Borden89], each processor is capable of rendering a maximum of 20,000 smoothly shaded small polygons/seconds. Today's GPUs can render thousands of times more triangle per second, antialiased, with multiple, high quality texture maps and arbitrary blending. Another google search http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ece548/handouts/17v_perf.pdf says that the Titan 1 had a 125 ns clock period and two FPUs, for 16 MFLOP/s peak. Perhaps you recall 1K FPUs, but maybe it was a 1K vector register length. The same pdf (written by Philip Koopman) says that even with four processor, and with a large (1000x1000) array size, the titan-1 peaked at 15.7 Mflops. It attributes this to the fact that the aggregate bus bandwidth of the titan was 256 MB/sec. By rewriting the linpack code to block the data appropriately, they got it up to 46 MFLOP/s. So, overall, I think there is no comparison. The rose colored glasses of time have fooled you. ... > Are there any graphics guys on the list? Yes, from the hw end of things. From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Mar 10 14:49:34 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:49:34 -0500 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:44:55 CST." <45F30AB7.2000107@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200703102049.l2AKnYHJ004478@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jim Battle wrote: > >Today's GPUs can render thousands of times more triangle per second, >antialiased, with multiple, high quality texture maps and arbitrary >blending. mmm. another engineer and I made a triangle blt machine in 1983/1984 from raw ttl. it followed a display list. I think we were in the "100's" of triangles at the time. wish we'd patented that :-) it made from some fun coin-op game prototypes but never got out the door... -brad From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 10 14:58:10 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:58:10 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:49:34 -0500. <200703102049.l2AKnYHJ004478@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <E1HQ8dm-0005Ya-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <200703102049.l2AKnYHJ004478 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> writes: > mmm. another engineer and I made a triangle blt machine in 1983/1984 > from raw ttl. it followed a display list. I think we were in the > "100's" of triangles at the time. > > wish we'd patented that :-) it made from some fun coin-op game prototypes bu t > never got out the door... You probably would have run into patents by Evans & Sutherland... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 10 15:06:34 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:06:34 -0600 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers In-Reply-To: <45F30AB7.2000107@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <BAY120-F35B55A58C25AAA4E54FD1ABA7F0@phx.gbl> Jim, I totally agree with you, todays GPUs are screamers. Did you know that the core of NVIDIA's design team came from SGI? Sad to see that company went wintel... I think they were almost de-listed from the stock excchage at one point, as the stock dipped below a dollar. Jim, have you followed the recent threads in the news, to use the GPU processor fabric as a general purpose engine, not just for pixels? If you have IEEE access, search GPU. Due to the PC gamers, we really do have a supercomputer on a card for 40 bucks or less. If anyone else is exploring this topic, please reply or email me rdawson16 at hotmail dot com. I think the strenght of the Stardent system was a combination of things from Gordon More and Seymour Cray, their rules for supercomputer design. The memory bandwidth was awsome for the time, and with 4 processors and a vector unit accessing it independently, crunching code from a compiler that knew how to vectorize and divide tasks. I had a chance to represent another company (I was a graphics consultant to NASA) Superset- they had a cool idea too, to process Fortran in near native instruction of the machine. They used bit slice 2901s from AMD to create a A (operation) B = C machine, and a compiler to generate this code. So the machine was sort of a hardware interpreter. If you look at todays DSPs they are very similar, they can read an operand, write an operand and perform a computation in a single cycle. I have Stardent (Kubota) Dore' running today and porting my old app to it. I wrote the PC roller coaster simulator, COASTER. I want to re-spin it, now that fast GPU hardware has finaly arrived and in every PC. My rose colored glasses recall all of these machines booting to prompt and a screen in seconds. They always ran for months without a crash, and could read/write 500 mbyte images/data files in seconds too. The PC aint there yet... I write this from FreeBSD, I took all the 'Gates' out of my computer, and guess what, it still works. Thanks for your coments, Jim. Randy >From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Subject: Re: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:44:55 -0600 > >Randy Dawson wrote: >... >>Lost, sadly was the machine between then and now, the Graphics >>Supercomputer. In an effort to add computational speed to graphics and >>scientific visualazation, two vendors went head to head on this problem, >>Ardent and Stellar. >>If you were around at the time, and saw one of these I would love to hear >>from you. The performance was truly spectacular. I had a chance to use >>one for a couple of years, and it still comes pretty close to current GPU >>tec in graphics performance. With pipeline vector processor and compiler >>to unroll loops it was WOW. Todays Ghz processors cannot beat a vector >>machine in computation, Titan had a 16 Mhz 1K floating point vector ALU. > >Randy, no doubt you know a lot more about the ardent/stellar/stardent stuff >than me. I was aware of it and I once got hold of the design spec for the >TOE processor (the 4x4 pixel "stamper"). However, I think you aren't aware >of how sophisticated todays GPUs are. > >16 MHz * 1K flops = 16 Gflops. A single top end GPU is more like 500 >GFLOPS (single prec only, though). Today's GPUs have myriad pixel formats, >including ARGB with an FP32 for each component. Pixel shaders are highly >programmable. A single GPU can have > 80 GB/sec of bandwidth to DRAM (not >cache). > >The TOE processor was a fixed point affair with limited, fixed point >precision. There is no comparison. I wish I still had the spec to make a >more concrete comparison. > >A google search turned up this quote: > >With the Dore' rendering package [Borden89], each processor is capable of >rendering a maximum of 20,000 smoothly shaded small polygons/seconds. > >Today's GPUs can render thousands of times more triangle per second, >antialiased, with multiple, high quality texture maps and arbitrary >blending. > >Another google search > > http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ece548/handouts/17v_perf.pdf > >says that the Titan 1 had a 125 ns clock period and two FPUs, for 16 >MFLOP/s peak. Perhaps you recall 1K FPUs, but maybe it was a 1K vector >register length. The same pdf (written by Philip Koopman) says that even >with four processor, and with a large (1000x1000) array size, the titan-1 >peaked at 15.7 Mflops. It attributes this to the fact that the aggregate >bus bandwidth of the titan was 256 MB/sec. By rewriting the linpack code >to block the data appropriately, they got it up to 46 MFLOP/s. > >So, overall, I think there is no comparison. The rose colored glasses of >time have fooled you. > >... >>Are there any graphics guys on the list? > >Yes, from the hw end of things. > _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 10 15:53:51 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:53:51 -0800 Subject: raster laser? / Sci. American References: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com> <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> <f4eb766f0703092137q980ad2aucdb87054bd448c7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F328EF.396FAEDA@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 3/10/07, Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> wrote: > > OK Chuck. > > We can take a look at the Scientific American Ameteur Scientist. > > I have that series of articles somewhere in a reprint collection - how > to build nitrogen CO2 lasers and tunable dye lasers from scratch, then > how to make holograms and lissajous patterns with modified speakers > and function generators. I always wanted to build the lissajous rig, > but never got past the component collecting stage. These days, with Aug 1980, page 158, sounds like the second article you refer to: attaching mirrors to two speakers oriented at angles to each other, etc. (The same issue has an opened disk drive on the cover and an article about disk drive technology.) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 10 16:00:19 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:00:19 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to have disappeared, that the content on ftp sites isn't indexed by google very well and that large software archives seem to be disappearing? Try searching for old copies of fractint and they are hard to find, even though they were everywhere as recently as 10 years ago. What's happened to FTP? Should we be working to archive large FTP software repositories? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 10 16:04:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 22:04:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 revisited In-Reply-To: <004001c762a9$be248d10$6600a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Mar 9, 7 06:19:15 pm Message-ID: <m1HQ9gE-000J11C@p850ug1> > > I was looking at the power control board for the H742A (5409730) that is > supposed to be putting out my +15v. I couldn't find any schematics on this > board but the system engineering prints appear to indicate they should be They're in my PDP11/45 printset. > present. In the absence of schematics (and any obvious scorching) I figured > the likely first thing to check is the sole TO-3 power transistor on the > board. Sure enough, the C-E junction is shorted so at the least I'll need > one of those. Did you test it out-of-circuit? It's a power darlington (read : high current gain) and there's a fairly low resistor (100 ohms -- 2 off 200 ohm in parallel) between C and B. It's quite possible an in-circuit test will show it as shorted. > 1) The critter is Motorola "DEC3000" which I'm betting is a DEC house part > number (since ECG xref shows nothing && it starts with DEC). Can anyone clue > me in to what part that really is? The pritn I have shows it (Q1) as an MJ1000 > > 2) Are the schematics for 5409730 around so I can try to understand it a > little better? I can describe the circuit for you.. Firstly a sort-of layout ; With the PCB so that Q1 is at the bottom right, and the fat electrolytic capacitor is on the far left, then : That capacitor is C1. Alongside it, towareds the bottom of the board are 2 small transsistors. Q2 is near the bottom edge, Q3 jsut above it. Then thers's Q1, the To3 can on the heatsink Above Q3, roughtlu on a line with the top of that capacitor C1 is a bridge rectifier, D1. And alongisde that is a fuse, F1 The rest of the compoonents on the board are part of the ACLO and DCLO circuits. Now, for a circuit description of the +15V supply. 30V AC comes in on pins 3 and 4 of J1 (the 4 pin connector on the board). It's rectified by D1, and smoothed by C1. The +ve side of that capacitor then gores to the fuse F1. Nwo, the regualators is quite conventional. It consists of a 16V zener with that 100 Ohm resistor arrangement I mentioned feeding it from the outpt of C1. Q1 acts as an emttier-follower, and buffers the output of the zener circuit to provide the +15V line to the rest of the machine. Now for the unconventional part. Q3 and Q2 form a circuit that disables the +15V supply (shorts out the zener, effectively) if the DCLO line -- the 'spaer one' on pin 9 of J4 (the conencotr wired to the PCB) -- is aserted. So, what I'd do is ; Check F1. If it's OK. power up and check the voltage on the +ve side of C1 wrt the system ground rail. You should have 30-40V here. If you do, check the base voltage of Q1. If that's 16V, and you still ahve no output, suspect Q1. But if that's essentially 0V, check Q2 and Q3, and if they're OK, it's time to check back into the DCLO circuit. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 10 16:10:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:10:09 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:06:34 -0600. <BAY120-F35B55A58C25AAA4E54FD1ABA7F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1HQ9lR-0004UR-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <BAY120-F35B55A58C25AAA4E54FD1ABA7F0 at phx.gbl>, "Randy Dawson" <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> writes: > I totally agree with you, todays GPUs are screamers. Did you know that the > core of NVIDIA's design team came from SGI? Not just SGI, but ATI as well. Basically the hardware designers at lots of graphics outfits left the mainframe/minicomputers/workstation companies to go work for PC graphics card companies. Its interesting that the employees can adapt to the change in technology, but the organizations and companies seem stuck. This wouldn't be the first time that a company didn't survive a change in the computing platform. DEC seemd to do OK when workstations hit the scene, but seemed to totally miss it when PCs hit the scene. SGI had a PC product very early on and found the results "disappointing" when compared to workstations, but that misses the point entirely. At the time it still would have run rings around other comparable PC offerings. As a result they abandoned the PC platform as a company until it was too late to be the dominant player. Hell, missing market opportunities is the whole story of why E&S is now down to 60 employees and circling the drain for what seems one last time. > Sad to see that company went wintel... I think they were almost de-listed > from the stock excchage at one point, as the stock dipped below a dollar. They *were* delisted. They were relisted later. After 9/11 they got a financial shot in the arm due to a spurt in supercomputer business, but it wasn't enough to restart the company, really. > Jim, have you followed the recent threads in the news, to use the GPU > processor fabric as a general purpose engine, not just for pixels? See <http://www.gpgpu.org/> > I have Stardent (Kubota) Dore' running today and porting my old app to it. Is this just the API or do you have a machine? I knew a guy that left E&S to go work for Kubota Pacific when they started up -- Kent was his first name, I am drawing a blank on his last name right now... He worked on the microcode for the Evans & Sutherland Freedom series of graphics accelerators that were made for Sun, HP and IBM machines. The microcode was written for the AMD 29000 processor. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 16:20:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:20:22 -0500 Subject: raster laser? / Sci. American In-Reply-To: <45F328EF.396FAEDA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <45F1660D.2685.38E4F1DB@cclist.sydex.com> <BAY120-F56E7DDC7CA59F7194E409BA7F0@phx.gbl> <f4eb766f0703092137q980ad2aucdb87054bd448c7a@mail.gmail.com> <45F328EF.396FAEDA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703101420k7178af08q530a41c6517c9648@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > Aug 1980, page 158, sounds like the second article you refer to: > attaching mirrors to two speakers oriented at angles to each other, etc. > > (The same issue has an opened disk drive on the cover and an article about > disk drive technology.) That sounds entirely familiar for the original, but the specific publication I'm thinking of is a 5mm-thick soft-bound book containing a dozen articles/projects about lasers - generating coherent light and using coherent light. I don't have the publication in front of me or I'd cite chapter and verse. Thanks for the reference to what was probably the original article. These days, one could whip up some software for a sound card to generate the functions, or one could even write a program to make an audio file, then let an iPod play back the X and the Y waveforms as left and right channel ;-) -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 10 16:30:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:30:16 -0800 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F218A56241DB285CCB44A4BA7F0@phx.gbl> References: <E1HPrhH-0003oe-00@xmission.xmission.com>, <BAY120-F218A56241DB285CCB44A4BA7F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <45F2C0F8.2249.3E30140B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Mar 2007 at 12:03, Randy Dawson wrote: >Todays Ghz processors cannot beat a vector machine in > computation, Titan had a 16 Mhz 1K floating point vector ALU. > I am currently working with Ardent/Stellar/Stardent Dore' visualization > library from these machines. I strongly suspect that the GPU from a modern PC video card or game can probably run rings around an old Stardent box. That's not to belittle vector boxes--even modern Intel CPUs have SIMD instructions. Personally, I've worked in compiler development for the CDC STAR and the ETA 10, so I'm not bashing vector machines. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 10 16:35:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:35:39 -0800 Subject: Memory refresher Message-ID: <45F2C23B.13251.3E350195@cclist.sydex.com> I'm hoping someone out there can help me remember. I can dig through my hellbox and hook up a drive and figure it out, but I'd just as soon hear it from someone with a better memory. It's this: The old Sony SS 40-cylinder 3.5" floppy drives--was cylinder 0 located an additional step outwards from where modern 3.5" drives put cylinder 0? I can't remember for sure--it's a sign of age. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 16:42:22 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:42:22 -0500 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers ?? no graphics supers In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F218A56241DB285CCB44A4BA7F0@phx.gbl> References: <E1HPrhH-0003oe-00@xmission.xmission.com> <BAY120-F218A56241DB285CCB44A4BA7F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <e1d20d630703101442h6b0b0265kfc4c6e2c074beb47@mail.gmail.com> > Without Sun, HP, Apollo the next gen CPU ICs could not be placed and routed. > Engineers needed to interact in realtime with the design at a graphics > workstation to get the job done, to create the IC masks. Shhh...don't tell the mainframe CAD guys... -- Will From allain at panix.com Sat Mar 10 16:44:29 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:44:29 -0500 Subject: Meiko pictures. References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <000701c76365$aa5396c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Apologies for the poor quality, all I had was a camera > phone, not so great lighting (and an unsteady hand)... Any ability to cut down on the wasted megabytes? I speak of the ability to shrink the pictures to a size where detail == pixel count. John A. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 10 17:18:17 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:18:17 -0800 Subject: 11/45 revisited Message-ID: <45F33CB9.5070700@bitsavers.org> A set of 11/45 engineering drawing scans are up now under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1145 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 10 17:21:57 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:21:57 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> > Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to > have disappeared The web as subsumed all of this, in an inferior fashion, IMHO. You will notice that bitsavers looks exactly the same as it did as an anonymous ftp site on its previous host. > Should we be working to archive large FTP software repositories? Absolutely! And try to find old backups that you have. Make sure to use something that can preserve file dates of the files. The old recursive ftp programs didn't do this. From evan at snarc.net Sat Mar 10 17:45:21 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:45:21 -0500 Subject: VCF East 4.0 website now up Message-ID: <000001c7636e$2cb48950$6501a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all, The VCF East 4.0 web site at www.vintage.org is now ready for use. The event, in case you forgot, is TWO days this year -- June 9-10. Exhibit booths and vendor booths cost the same. (At past VCFs it cost a lot more for a vendor booth than for an exhibit booth.) The single-booth fees are: $15 for paid MARCH members ($5 cheaper than last year) $25 for everyone else Discounts may be available for people who reserve multiple booths. We'll have almost twice as much physical space as last year, so we want as many exhibitors as possible. We'll accept vendors but that really is not the focus. PLEASE SIGN UP EARLY. AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE. Even if you only have a general idea so far of your exhibit topic, that's fine. Go ahead and sign up. It makes life much easier for us in planning and marketing the event. If everyone waits until the last minute, then the public will go to the VCF web site and see what appears to be very little participation, and decide not to attend. Conversely, if people sign up early, it builds excitement for the event. - Evan From classiccmp at ian.viemeister.com Sat Mar 10 17:48:29 2007 From: classiccmp at ian.viemeister.com (Ian Viemeister) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:48:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: XMI goodies? In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703091935u59b6eb02g6d83ab14fa9f1b17@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F21FCE.8070603@mdrconsult.com> <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> <f4eb766f0703091935u59b6eb02g6d83ab14fa9f1b17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0703101837010.9069@terminus.viemeister.com> On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If I remember correctly, one may stuff up to 6 CPUs on the XMI bus, > which is limited to a smallish number of total slots), but if one wants > to max out the memory and have other peripherals in there, it might not > be possible to have all 6 CPUs loaded. Close... The bus you're describing there is the LSB bus, which can handle up to 8 CPU or memory modules (1-6 CPUs, VAX or Alpha; 1-7 memory modules, up to 3.5GB on VAX), and one dedicated slot for the IO module. The IO module connects to 1-4 XMI card cages which handle Ethernet, DSSI (VAX only), SCSI (Alpha only), CI, and a bridge to VAXBI. > Interesting stuff, if you want to run a VAX the size of a > refrigerator. The last one I saw in the wild was a few years ago, but > there are quite a few in hobbyist hands. Someone (here?) has > described how to run one off of either single-phase or US 220VAC, but > they shipped from DEC with 3-phase power, IIRC. Well, they ship with a 3-phase input, but each of the three power regulators is a simple single-phase load. If the machine isn't loaded with extra cards and storage PIUs, it can be run from a single regulator. --Ian From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 10 18:36:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:36:17 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:21:57 -0800. <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45F33D95.4000707 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes: > > Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to > > have disappeared > > The web as subsumed all of this, in an inferior fashion, IMHO. Yeah, but I think of the things I used to easily find with archie and now I can't find them at all with google even with targetted searches for specific filenames. I can ftp to simtel.net and find it if I know its there, but I don't know the names of other FTP archives. Google code search is interesting, but doesn't find things I know exist either. > > Should we be working to archive large FTP software repositories? > > Absolutely! And try to find old backups that you have. > Make sure to use something that can preserve file dates of the files. > The old recursive ftp programs didn't do this. Any specific software suggestions? Ideally it would be something that runs on Windows and uses "background net traffic" to perform the mirroring onto a local HD for archiving to DVD-R. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 10 18:58:13 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:58:13 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <012801c76378$58fd9e70$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote.... > Ideally it would be something that runs on Windows Not ideally it wouldn't be. Jay From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 10 19:04:31 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:04:31 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:58:13 -0600. <012801c76378$58fd9e70$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <E1HQCUB-00084P-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <012801c76378$58fd9e70$6700a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes: > Richard wrote.... > > Ideally it would be something that runs on Windows > > Not ideally it wouldn't be. I only speak for myself, Jay. Who else would I be speaking for? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 10 19:08:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:08:17 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <012801c76378$58fd9e70$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> <012801c76378$58fd9e70$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45F35681.3020205@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote.... >> Ideally it would be something that runs on Windows > > Not ideally it wouldn't be. Oh come on, a heavyweight GUI is indispensable when it comes to archival/backup/mirroring activities! ;-) From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 10 19:12:49 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:12:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> from Richard at "Mar 10, 7 05:36:17 pm" Message-ID: <200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com> > > > Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to > > > have disappeared > > > > The web as subsumed all of this, in an inferior fashion, IMHO. > > Yeah, but I think of the things I used to easily find with archie and > now I can't find them at all with google even with targetted searches > for specific filenames. I can ftp to simtel.net and find it if I know > its there, but I don't know the names of other FTP archives. Google > code search is interesting, but doesn't find things I know exist > either. Maybe it's just because I'm a hammer and every problem looks like a nail, but people have forgotten how good gopher can work in this regard also. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You will feel gypped by this fortune. ----------------------------- From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 19:37:06 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:37:06 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com> References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703101737g43a99e1do7f6d720f001f3e2f@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: > > > > > Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem > to > > > > have disappeared > > > > > > The web as subsumed all of this, in an inferior fashion, IMHO. > > > > Yeah, but I think of the things I used to easily find with archie and > > now I can't find them at all with google even with targetted searches > > for specific filenames. I can ftp to simtel.net and find it if I know > > its there, but I don't know the names of other FTP archives. Google > > code search is interesting, but doesn't find things I know exist > > either. > > Maybe it's just because I'm a hammer and every problem looks like a nail, > but people have forgotten how good gopher can work in this regard also. > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- FORTUNE: You will feel gypped by this fortune. > ----------------------------- > I've got some space I can dedicate to archiving classic software archives and I'd be glad to put my internet bandwidth to work for this great cause...however I never really was around sadly back when these bbses and 'ol ftp archives were popular and sadly don't know of any (except for some good vintage mac archives which I've already pretty much archived to its entirety ^_^ )...perhaps one or more of you guys would be so kind as to share with me your list of still existent ftp archives either on or off list? Thanks! :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 10 19:53:57 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:53:57 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703101737g43a99e1do7f6d720f001f3e2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005901c76380$2247c100$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hex Star" <hexstar at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:37 PM Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? > I've got some space I can dedicate to archiving classic software archives > and I'd be glad to put my internet bandwidth to work for this great > cause...however I never really was around sadly back when these bbses and > 'ol ftp archives were popular and sadly don't know of any (except for some > good vintage mac archives which I've already pretty much archived to its > entirety ^_^ )...perhaps one or more of you guys would be so kind as to > share with me your list of still existent ftp archives either on or off > list? Thanks! :-) Which vintage Mac archive did you download? From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 20:09:47 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:09:47 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <005901c76380$2247c100$0b01a8c0@game> References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703101737g43a99e1do7f6d720f001f3e2f@mail.gmail.com> <005901c76380$2247c100$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703101809t18e94868jc9a1c3c9a77b0c24@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hex Star" <hexstar at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:37 PM > Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? > > > > I've got some space I can dedicate to archiving classic software > archives > > and I'd be glad to put my internet bandwidth to work for this great > > cause...however I never really was around sadly back when these bbses > and > > 'ol ftp archives were popular and sadly don't know of any (except for > some > > good vintage mac archives which I've already pretty much archived to its > > entirety ^_^ )...perhaps one or more of you guys would be so kind as to > > share with me your list of still existent ftp archives either on or off > > list? Thanks! :-) > > Which vintage Mac archive did you download? > > I mirrored this one in its entirety: http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/ I've mirrored a good chunk (minus all the huge game ISO's since the server is so damn slow (meh, it's in china on a abused internet pipe so what do you expect? ;-) :-P ) of retromac68k.dyndns.org (a hotline server) as well as 68k.dyndns.org (another hotline server)...so while I may not have _everything_ vintage mac (due to limitations in that the only real good vintage mac archives I know of minus the mit one are those hotline ones which don't allow folder downloading and have very slow download speeds making it very difficult to grab everything off of them so I've grabbed what I feel is most important from them), I do have 99% of the vintage mac OS's (most of the major releases, some of the minor .x releases I can't find though) and a total of 10GB of vintage mac software archived...if you know of more http/ftp vintage mac archive please do let me know as I'll gladly download everything from it :-) ...I'd also like to know of the other vintage software archives you guys apparently know of as I'd like to help archive the archives before they all disappear forever so if you could let me know where those archives are I'd greatly appreciate it...thanks! :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 20:13:19 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:13:19 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! In-Reply-To: <1024083.13578967.297713191.21.22@ientrynetwork.net> References: <1024083.13578967.297713191.21.22@ientrynetwork.net> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703101813h385ef12amf7ee3c6b70e83083@mail.gmail.com> Not sure if this is the right kind of terminal :P but I thought you guys might find this offer interesting... :-) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: WebProNews <webpronews at ientrynetwork.net> Date: Mar 9, 2007 9:15 AM Subject: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! 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Accepts all major bank and credit cards; debit cards; gift and loyalty cards; and checks using TeleCheck ECA or paperless solutions. ? Secure Internet Protocol (IP) capability with dial-up as connectivity backup. ? Quiet, fast printer for speed at checkout lines ? High speed capability for quick transactions ? Intuitive touch screen with 128 x 64 graphic LCD display ? Terminal and printer combination to keep infrastructure costs low ? 64 MB RAM standard memory allowing an average 1000 transactions before batching out terminal ? Access to on-line reporting 24 x 7 right from your PC <http://aj.600z.com/aj/23363/0/cc?z=1&b=22970&c=23361> Unsubscribe<http://attrack.ientrynetwork.net/CLK=1024083-13578967-297713191-21-22>from iEntry Mailings on behalf of FirstData. To unsubscribe from WebProNews regular editions or any other iEntry mailings send an email request to: support at ientry.com -- WebProNews <http://www.WebProNews.com> is an iEntry, Inc.<http://www.ientry.com>publication -- iEntry, Inc. 2549 Richmond Road, Lexington, KY 40509 (c) 2007 All Rights Reserved Privacy Policy<http://www.iEntry.com/page/corp/privacy.html> Legal <http://www.iEntry.com/page/corp/legal.html> From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 10 19:51:59 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:51:59 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com><200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703101737g43a99e1do7f6d720f001f3e2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004601c76384$6c9bef20$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Side note - please trim your replies. Hex wrote.... > I've got some space I can dedicate to archiving classic software archives > and I'd be glad to put my internet bandwidth to work for this great > cause... Awesome. > (except for some > good vintage mac archives which I've already pretty much archived to its > entirety What is the url for these mac archives you've done? Jay PS - note, this is an example of how to trim replies From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 20:33:20 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:33:20 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <004601c76384$6c9bef20$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703101737g43a99e1do7f6d720f001f3e2f@mail.gmail.com> <004601c76384$6c9bef20$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703101833i34385c15p2747a04aea0849cc@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > What is the url for these mac archives you've done? > > > > I've archived http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/ in its entirety, I've also archived most of retromac68k.dyndns.org and 68k.dyndns.org (both of those are hotline servers, neither of which are easy to fully archive because due to their foreign location their download speeds are very slow and they disallow folder downloading however I have archived from them what I feel is the most important stuff worth archiving)..all of this adding up to 10gb of vintage software being archived (not including the OS's) ^_^ ...so what other vintage software archives are there that are worth archiving before they're gone forever? :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 10 20:40:08 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 21:40:08 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703101737g43a99e1do7f6d720f001f3e2f@mail.gmail.com> <005901c76380$2247c100$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703101809t18e94868jc9a1c3c9a77b0c24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007201c76386$95b4f3a0$0b01a8c0@game> I have a few GB of old commercial mostly 68K Apps I have snagged from various sources over the last few years. Not sure how people here feel about trading copies of commercial (but long abandoned) software or even talking about it. I do have a few shelves of boxed legit Mac Apps of the era, so I do try to preserve the original media if I can get it. TZ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 10 20:39:42 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:39:42 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com><200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com><5dc6fd9e0703101737g43a99e1do7f6d720f001f3e2f@mail.gmail.com><004601c76384$6c9bef20$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5dc6fd9e0703101833i34385c15p2747a04aea0849cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005f01c76386$8980b6f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... >> What is the url for these mac archives you've done? To which hexxie replied.... > I've archived http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/ in its entirety, I wasn't asking for the url of the archives themselves, I was asking for the public URL of YOUR copy that YOU put up on YOUR bandwidth for the public :) Jay From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 21:37:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 22:37:09 -0500 Subject: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation (Re: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)) In-Reply-To: <ee5521f80703100505x41faa876vb6cb552b48f1a77d@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703092129n50b8e792m74c486725eeb5ea6@mail.gmail.com> <45F24E4C.700@gmail.com> <20070310092336.GY18564@lug-owl.de> <ee5521f80703100505x41faa876vb6cb552b48f1a77d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F37965.1030007@gmail.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > The DEC VS11/VSV11 kind of did the earliest "Vax workstation." > > It was a Qbus graphics subsystem with 20 inch monitor which hooked up to a > Unibus interface. I'm reasonably certain there was an earlier workstation configuration for VAXen. I think the earliest was a UNIBUS-attached graphical console for the VAX 11/780. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 21:53:06 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 22:53:06 -0500 Subject: XMI goodies? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0703101837010.9069@terminus.viemeister.com> References: <45F21FCE.8070603@mdrconsult.com> <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> <f4eb766f0703091935u59b6eb02g6d83ab14fa9f1b17@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0703101837010.9069@terminus.viemeister.com> Message-ID: <45F37D22.7010505@gmail.com> Ian Viemeister wrote: > On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> If I remember correctly, one may stuff up to 6 CPUs on the XMI bus, >> which is limited to a smallish number of total slots), but if one wants >> to max out the memory and have other peripherals in there, it might not >> be possible to have all 6 CPUs loaded. > > Close... The bus you're describing there is the LSB bus, which can handle > up to 8 CPU or memory modules (1-6 CPUs, VAX or Alpha; 1-7 memory modules, > up to 3.5GB on VAX), and one dedicated slot for the IO module. Nope. It applies to the XMI bus in the VAX 6000 too. If you max out CPU's you can't max out RAM. > The IO module connects to 1-4 XMI card cages which handle Ethernet, DSSI > (VAX only), SCSI (Alpha only), CI, and a bridge to VAXBI. Not only those, but on Alpha, you can hook to PCI and (IIRC) Futurebus+. >> Interesting stuff, if you want to run a VAX the size of a >> refrigerator. The last one I saw in the wild was a few years ago, but >> there are quite a few in hobbyist hands. Someone (here?) has >> described how to run one off of either single-phase or US 220VAC, but >> they shipped from DEC with 3-phase power, IIRC. > > Well, they ship with a 3-phase input, but each of the three power > regulators is a simple single-phase load. If the machine isn't loaded > with extra cards and storage PIUs, it can be run from a single regulator. Actually, you can max out the entire machine and run on a 220V + center tap dryer plug. I know it can be done because I've done it. Peace... Sridhar From bear at typewritten.org Sat Mar 10 22:11:02 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:11:02 -0800 Subject: HP 400 series In-Reply-To: <AE603C31-15BE-4E4A-8AB5-BD1FEE66BDBA@typewritten.org> References: <006a01c75f69$49ae4130$0b01a8c0@game> <AE603C31-15BE-4E4A-8AB5-BD1FEE66BDBA@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <E5311BAF-AB2E-4460-9DDC-75265F77BDFB@typewritten.org> On Mar 5, 2007, at 7:10 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Mar 5, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> Anybody know much about the HP 400 series of 68K Unix machines? Is >> the OS for this system still available, also can you rig a VGA >> monitor to one? > > If you'll give me a week I'll have the S400 hardware maintenance > manual published on my website, which gives illustrated parts > breakdowns, LED diagnostic codes, part numbers, troubleshooting > procedures, etc. for the series 400 workstations. I have just finished converting this one to PDF and it's uploaded on my site now. http://www.typewritten.org/Articles/Catalog/card-a1630-90007.html Enjoy. ok bear From bob at jfcl.com Sat Mar 10 22:23:04 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:23:04 -0800 Subject: VT-180 (Robin) EPROM images? Message-ID: <002401c76394$f9857090$1401010a@Rhyme> Does anybody have images of the v2.1 Z-80 firmware for the VT-180 (aka Robin) ? At least, I think 2.1 was the last version ever released. They should be DEC part numbers 23-017E3-00 and 23-021E3-00. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 10 22:48:50 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:48:50 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> At 3:00 PM -0700 3/10/07, Richard wrote: >Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to >have disappeared, that the content on ftp sites isn't indexed by >google very well and that large software archives seem to be >disappearing? > >Try searching for old copies of fractint and they are hard to find, >even though they were everywhere as recently as 10 years ago. > >What's happened to FTP? > >Should we be working to archive large FTP software repositories? Well in the case of my anonymous FTP site at ftp://zane.brouhaha.com it was offline for probably a year or so. Real life took priority. It's back online and can still be accessed via that address or the now more proper ftp://ftp.avanthar.com . Of course there isn't a whole lot of use on the site, and never has been, but there are a couple of gems. My problem is that running an anonymous ftp site and having it properly configured so that it can't be misused, and it doesn't effect my ability to connect to FTP sites out on the net from my internal network is a resource drain. I think it was close to 6 years ago I archived a lot of the PDP-11 related stuff out there on FTP sites, as well as PDP-8, Dec Professional, and DECmate software. At the time my big problem was storing the stuff. I split it up so that it would fit on CD-R's. I really should try to update the archive and rebuild it as DVD's, but there is that pesky "real life" and to many other things to do. I've not made any of these available as a mirror, in part because I simply don't have the bandwidth. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 11 00:32:04 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 00:32:04 -0600 Subject: XMI goodies? In-Reply-To: <45F37D22.7010505@gmail.com> References: <45F21FCE.8070603@mdrconsult.com> <E1HPsEB-0007sN-00@xmission.xmission.com> <f4eb766f0703091935u59b6eb02g6d83ab14fa9f1b17@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0703101837010.9069@terminus.viemeister.com> <45F37D22.7010505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F3A264.9050009@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ian Viemeister wrote: >> Well, they ship with a 3-phase input, but each of the three power >> regulators is a simple single-phase load. If the machine isn't loaded >> with extra cards and storage PIUs, it can be run from a single regulator. > > Actually, you can max out the entire machine and run on a 220V + center > tap dryer plug. I know it can be done because I've done it. Ahem. The rackmount laserbus system enclosure AND the rackmount XMI cage are both shipped as 240V single phase. Which is the main reason I thought somebody might be interested in them. Well, that, and shipping wouldn't break the bank quite as badly as the standalone cabinet. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 11 00:35:34 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 22:35:34 -0800 Subject: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation (Re: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)) In-Reply-To: <45F37965.1030007@gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703092129n50b8e792m74c486725eeb5ea6@mail.gmail.com> <45F24E4C.700@gmail.com> <20070310092336.GY18564@lug-owl.de> <ee5521f80703100505x41faa876vb6cb552b48f1a77d@mail.gmail.com> <45F37965.1030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <p0624081dc219519985f1@[192.168.1.199]> At 10:37 PM -0500 3/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Bill Pechter wrote: >>The DEC VS11/VSV11 kind of did the earliest "Vax workstation." >> >>It was a Qbus graphics subsystem with 20 inch monitor which hooked up to a >>Unibus interface. > >I'm reasonably certain there was an earlier workstation >configuration for VAXen. I think the earliest was a UNIBUS-attached >graphical console for the VAX 11/780. > >Peace... Sridhar I believe you're thinking of the VAXstation 100 terminal (aka VS100). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 11 01:07:31 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 23:07:31 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <45F3AAB3.6080409@bitsavers.org> >> The web as subsumed all of this, in an inferior fashion, IMHO. > Yeah, but I think of the things I used to easily find with archie and > now I can't find them at all with google even with targetted searches > for specific filenames. Google doesn't spider for filenames, just content. If a list of filenames doesn't show up on a web page, Google won't see it. As an example, I just did a search for "adsMstr_6-76.log" which can be found at http://bitsavers.org/bits/Datapoint/cassetteDumps/ and there were no hits from google, yahoo, altavista, or google code search. It is odd, though that Google doesn't find the page from http://bitsavers.org/bits/Datapoint/cassetteDumps/, so apparently it won't index content that is a directory. It would be interesting to know if there is a search engine that can in fact find a file by name. There are several files I have been searching for that I know the name of, but not where they might exist on the web. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Mar 11 01:28:54 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 01:28:54 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F3AAB3.6080409@bitsavers.org> References: <45F3AAB3.6080409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45F3AFB6.6080303@oldskool.org> Al Kossow wrote: > Google doesn't spider for filenames, just content. If a list of filenames > doesn't show up on a web page, Google won't see it. Wrong. See below. > As an example, I just did a search for "adsMstr_6-76.log" > which can be found at http://bitsavers.org/bits/Datapoint/cassetteDumps/ > and there were no hits from google, yahoo, altavista, or google code > search. That's because it wasn't indexed. A search for "20164_dos.c_1.1.bin" does indeed point to bitsavers, which was indexed. Maybe you have a robots.txt somewhere? Try re-submitting your site to the engines again. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 11 04:53:05 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 01:53:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: baud modifier Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> I'm thinking of a device that would step down the speed of an rs232 connection from, say, 9600 to 110. The idea is to allow a computer that can't do 110 to talk to an ASR33 teletype. Does such a device exist? What's it really called? Does anyone have any schematics for one? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From andy at smokebelch.org Sun Mar 11 04:53:59 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:53:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Meiko pictures. In-Reply-To: <000701c76365$aa5396c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> <000701c76365$aa5396c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20070311094956.T16620@plum.flirble.org> On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, John Allain wrote: >> Apologies for the poor quality, all I had was a camera >> phone, not so great lighting (and an unsteady hand)... > > Any ability to cut down on the wasted megabytes? > I speak of the ability to shrink the pictures to a size > where detail == pixel count. Ram asked for photos and these were the best that could be managed at the moment - admittedly should have compress them given terrible quality. Next time I'll do that else include a warning for those that take offence to inadvertantly downloading unsolicited noise. I think I was being lazy and assumed nobody would be on 9600 dialup :o) Andrew From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 11 06:40:13 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 06:40:13 -0500 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <200703111140.l2BBeGbe014277@hosting.monisys.ca> > I'm thinking of a device that would step down the speed of an rs232 > connection from, say, 9600 to 110. The idea is to allow a computer that > can't do 110 to talk to an ASR33 teletype. Does such a device exist? > What's it really called? Does anyone have any schematics for one? I have devices that will do this - these are actually RS-232 data switches that I designed in the 80s. It was a whole line ranging in size from 8 to 56 ports, once a connection is made, the ends operate with independant interfaces, and the switch mediates between them. For what you want to do you only need two ports. You will also need either some kind of flow control (RTS/CTS, XON/XOFF etc.) on the faster speed port, or a buffer large enough to contain the maximum possible data block that will be sent to the slower-speed port before the system waits for a response from it. Easy to design and build - a single-chip micro with two serial ports would fit the bill nicely, otherwise you could bit-bash the slow speed port, or use an external UART. Simply set the speed/parity/Dbits/Sbits that you want for each port, then copy data between them through buffers - when a buffer approaches full, assert flow control on the filling port, when the buffer later approaches empty, deassert flow control on the filling port. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 11 07:22:34 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 05:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <200703111140.l2BBeGbe014277@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703111140.l2BBeGbe014277@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110519440.2850@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I'm thinking of a device that would step down the speed of an rs232 > > connection from, say, 9600 to 110. The idea is to allow a computer that > > can't do 110 to talk to an ASR33 teletype. Does such a device exist? > > What's it really called? Does anyone have any schematics for one? > > I have devices that will do this - these are actually RS-232 data switches > that I designed in the 80s. It was a whole line ranging in size from 8 to 56 > ports, once a connection is made, the ends operate with independant > interfaces, and the switch mediates between them. > > For what you want to do you only need two ports. You will also need either > some kind of flow control (RTS/CTS, XON/XOFF etc.) on the faster speed > port, or a buffer large enough to contain the maximum possible data block > that will be sent to the slower-speed port before the system waits for a > response from it. > > Easy to design and build - a single-chip micro with two serial ports would > fit the bill nicely, otherwise you could bit-bash the slow speed port, or > use an external UART. Simply set the speed/parity/Dbits/Sbits that you want > for each port, then copy data between them through buffers - when a buffer > approaches full, assert flow control on the filling port, when the buffer > later approaches empty, deassert flow control on the filling port. I'm not very keen on microcontroller hacking. Which one would you recommend for something like this? I'm guessing that for a fixed-speed job, you'd have the microcontroller, two MAX232 chips, and not much else. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Mar 11 03:11:33 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:11:33 -0000 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DBC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Here's my six cents... I worked for DEC (twice). Better engineering and nicer group of people you would not find again. Rod Smallwood DEC Badge No 45083 -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 10 March 2007 02:26 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Value of a PDP/8? > > Someone (Jules? broken attribution?) wrote: > > I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular > > and collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? > > > > So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better > > hardware or software availability? What do collectors *do* with > > their running DEC systems anyway? Familiarity - for me, as well as many members of this list, it's a matter of accumulated experience on DEC boxes when they were new or recently retired. > I can only speak to my own reasons. It really comes down to 2 issues. > > When I started collecting DEC hardware it was pretty cheap on the > surplus market. My 11/05 cost $50.00 US and was runnable. Another $150 > and I had a pair of RX01's. The most expensive part was RAM. Nice start. As I've posted in the past, my start with DEC hardware was a $35 PDP-8/L in 1982 from the Dayton Hamvention. It took me 2 years of fiddling around with it until I ran across a copy of the module list and got it working. From there, it was to a PDP-8/a to which I added an RX8E/RX01 then an RL8A and RL01 and a VT52. Coincident with the PDP-8/a, I was using PDP-11s and VAXen at work, so I was pretty well established as a DEChead between High School and my Freshman year of College. I never got paid to program a PDP-8, but I'm happy I barely made the cutoff to program the PDP-11 for a living (1986-1987). Besides early access to the hardware, I'd say the appeal was how much cooler 12-bits and 16-bits and 32-bits was compared to my little 6502 and 1802 machines were at home. I could write "real" programs on a minicomputer at work or poke around with noddy stuff in BASIC and 6502 assembler at home. No contest. It didn't hurt that while I was learning PDP-11 machine language at work (typing in diagnostics with console ODT emulators), I was also working on Unibus and Qbus hardware. I got to learn all the low-level stuff _and_ get a paycheck for it. I never saw an HP or Data General in the flesh until several years after I was repairing PDP-11 boards and writing programs in MACRO and C. Speaking of C, I learned it on an 11/750 running 4BSD in 1985. A venerable platform if ever there was one (back in the days of "all the world's a VAX"). I learned the One True Brace formatting standard in that environment and retain that style to this day. So... in short - early exposure and access, then the chance to pick up older stuff on the surplus market for cheap or free. When nobody wanted 5MB RL01s, I was buying cheap RL01s. Later it was RL02s, then it was entire MicroVAXen, etc. So much of it was backwards and forwards compatible, I could play with what I could afford at home, then take my results to work and run stuff on really expensive iron ($100K+). Shame it's all so hard to find now. -ethan From james at machineroom.info Sun Mar 11 05:05:24 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:05:24 +0000 Subject: Meiko pictures. In-Reply-To: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45F3D464.1030608@machineroom.info> Andrew Back wrote: > So I went into the erm, server room, and pulled apart the Meiko nodes > and took some pictures. Apologies for the poor quality, all I had was a > camera phone, not so great lighting (and an unsteady hand)... > > CS/860 (a.k.a. Concerto) : > > MK083 x 1 (Sparcstation 1+ host and link adapters etc) > MK086 x 1 (Twin i860 + transputers) > A thing of beauty. I recall my University (Bristol Poly/UWE) had a Meiko. It must have been the larger model as it stood 6' tall and was about 3' wide in black. Looked like the monolith from 2001 :) From james at machineroom.info Sun Mar 11 05:08:47 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:08:47 +0000 Subject: Meiko pictures. In-Reply-To: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45F3D52F.7070300@machineroom.info> Andrew Back wrote: > So I went into the erm, server room, and pulled apart the Meiko nodes > and took some pictures. Apologies for the poor quality, all I had was a > camera phone, not so great lighting (and an unsteady hand)... > > CS/860 (a.k.a. Concerto) : I wonder.... has anyone carried Inmos links over IP? When I get my 300 node monster running it would be "fun" to network these Transputer machines. James www.machineroom.info From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 11 06:13:59 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:13:59 +0000 Subject: Meiko pictures. In-Reply-To: <000701c76365$aa5396c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> <000701c76365$aa5396c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <45F3E477.4030105@gjcp.net> John Allain wrote: >> Apologies for the poor quality, all I had was a camera >> phone, not so great lighting (and an unsteady hand)... > > Any ability to cut down on the wasted megabytes? > I speak of the ability to shrink the pictures to a size > where detail == pixel count. They're all around the 250-270k mark. If they were compressed any harder, you wouldn't be able to read things like the chip markings. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 11 06:15:16 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:15:16 +0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45F3E4C4.6030508@gjcp.net> Richard wrote: > Any specific software suggestions? Ideally it would be something that > runs on Windows and uses "background net traffic" to perform the Why Windows? Why not something that people can just stick on a server and leave? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 11 06:27:16 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:27:16 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703101813h385ef12amf7ee3c6b70e83083@mail.gmail.com> References: <1024083.13578967.297713191.21.22@ientrynetwork.net> <5dc6fd9e0703101813h385ef12amf7ee3c6b70e83083@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F3E794.1090300@gjcp.net> Hex Star wrote: > Not sure if this is the right kind of terminal :P but I thought you guys > might find this offer interesting... :-) Well, it appears to be some kind of credit card terminal. Not really the right kind of terminal at all. It's hard enough to keep spam off mailing lists like this without supposedly "trusted" users forwarding it in. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Mar 11 07:45:29 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:45:29 -0400 Subject: VT-180 (Robin) EPROM images? Message-ID: <0JEQ00HUWOPEJPSA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: VT-180 (Robin) EPROM images? > From: "Robert Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> > Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:23:04 -0800 > To: <cctech at classiccmp.org> > > Does anybody have images of the v2.1 Z-80 firmware for the VT-180 (aka >Robin) ? At least, I think 2.1 was the last version ever released. They >should be DEC part numbers 23-017E3-00 and 23-021E3-00. > >Thanks, >Bob Armstrong I have enough of them laying around I could supply the actual roms. I've never imaged them as It's easier to replace the code outright. Curious why are you looking for them? Allison From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 11 08:31:22 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 07:31:22 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:15:16 -0000. <45F3E4C4.6030508@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <E1HQO8w-0003Wo-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45F3E4C4.6030508 at gjcp.net>, Gordon JC Pearce <gordon at gjcp.net> writes: > Richard wrote: > > > Any specific software suggestions? Ideally it would be something that > > runs on Windows and uses "background net traffic" to perform the > > Why Windows? Why not something that people can just stick on a server > and leave? If you want to do it, you use whatever you want. If I'm going to do it, I'll use whatever I want. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From andy at smokebelch.org Sun Mar 11 08:32:01 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:32:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Meiko pictures. In-Reply-To: <45F3D464.1030608@machineroom.info> References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> <45F3D464.1030608@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <20070311133010.E16620@plum.flirble.org> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007, James wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: >> So I went into the erm, server room, and pulled apart the Meiko nodes and >> took some pictures. Apologies for the poor quality, all I had was a camera >> phone, not so great lighting (and an unsteady hand)... >> >> CS/860 (a.k.a. Concerto) : >> >> MK083 x 1 (Sparcstation 1+ host and link adapters etc) >> MK086 x 1 (Twin i860 + transputers) >> > > A thing of beauty. > I recall my University (Bristol Poly/UWE) had a Meiko. It must have been the > larger model as it stood 6' tall and was about 3' wide in black. Looked like > the monolith from 2001 :) If it was transputer or i860 based (i.e. not a Sparc based CS/2) it would have been the same kit. I believe they were stacked two nodes high and perhaps two nodes wide, in a long line. Andrew From andy at smokebelch.org Sun Mar 11 08:37:02 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:37:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Meiko pictures. In-Reply-To: <45F3D52F.7070300@machineroom.info> References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> <45F3D52F.7070300@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <20070311133230.L16620@plum.flirble.org> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007, James wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: >> So I went into the erm, server room, and pulled apart the Meiko nodes and >> took some pictures. Apologies for the poor quality, all I had was a camera >> phone, not so great lighting (and an unsteady hand)... >> >> CS/860 (a.k.a. Concerto) : > > > I wonder.... has anyone carried Inmos links over IP? When I get my 300 node > monster running it would be "fun" to network these Transputer machines. I guess it depends how timing sensitive the links are - I have no idea. Would be nice to be able to point your local farm at another and have it boot from it and join in :o) 300 nodes you say... Is that a Whitecross box? I was at a seminar at HP Labs recently where an ex-Whitecross (now Kognitio) exec did a talk. I wish I'd asked him if they still get to pull out old transputer kit. Andrew From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Mar 11 08:44:49 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:44:49 +0000 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <200703100836.l2A8ZPMx050804@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703100836.l2A8ZPMx050804@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <32FE0309-89AD-48D4-953F-5AC8C598D94C@microspot.co.uk> >> Then I looked at the pictures, and saw it was made by my old >> employers, Marconi Avionics who took over Elliott Brothers, and >> continued to make 920 series machines. I think there were 12 bit >> versions made by one of the divisions, though I am surprised they >> were still making them in the 1980s. > Yes, the unit was made after 1986 I think. One quy in the > rec.aviation.military claimed, that the box might be from > early tornados as I mentioned in my original posting. I do > not know how long development of such an aircraft takes but > the first take-off was in 1974 I think, so this would match > the design of this box wuite well - what do you think? Aircraft development takes a long long time. To make it worthwhile the aircraft has a long service life. Whilst the computers are bullet proof in an office/home, the temperature extremes, vibration, high G forces etc in service means that many failures occur and PCBs could be replaced many times over the years, so do not pay too much notice of the dates on components of the boards currently installed. There were at least four 12 bit versions, and one 13 bit apparently. Then 12 bit models were the 902, 102C, ARCH 105 and Minim or 12/12. > >> One part of Elliott Brothers became GEC Computers (based in >> Borehamwood). > Yes, that matches - the core memory module already has the > label GEC. So this is (as I suspected) older than the CPU and > taken maybe from a different design?! You have it the wrong way around. The GEC name replaced the Marconi name, which had earlier replaced Elliott. Core memory was very convenient for military applications and was in use long after it was replaced in commercial applications. Think of a missile or torpedo held in stock for many years, stick a power plug into it and program the target, pull out the plug and then launch it. Only then does the internal power supply come up, the processor boots up and does its thing. > >> One of your labels is from Airborne Displays Division based at the >> same Rochester site as I worked. This was also part of Marconi >> Avionics, and the company later changed its name to GEC Avionics. I >> worked on compilers, linkers and other utility software for the 18 >> bit 920s before moving on to the Zilog Z8001. > Hey, than you are a valuable expert on these - do you have > got any source of intormation about the 920s? Not directly but I may be able to help. > >> Erik, could you tell me if the instruction code is anything like >> this: >> 0 Load B (indexing) register and the Q register (shift extension) > > RIGHT > > >> 1 Add to accumulator > > RIGHT > > >> 2 Negate and add to accumulator > > RIGHT > > >> 3 Store the Q register > > RIGHT > > >> 4 Load accumulator > > RIGHT > > >> 5 Store accumulator > > RIGHT > > >> 6 And to accumulator > > RIGHT > > >> 7 Jump if zero > > RIGHT > > >> 8 Jump > > RIGHT > > >> 9 Jump if negative > > RIGHT - all three jumps are relative ones On the 18 bit machines these were relative to the start of the 8k memory module the instruction was in. An interesting modification. > > >> 10 Increment > > RIGHT > > >> 11 Store program counter (for function return) > > SIMILAR - This stores PC and then does a > table jump On the 18 bit machines, it actually stored the program counter + 1 and the following instruction was either an 8 or a "/8", i.e. 24. > > >> 12 Multiply > > RIGHT, unsigned multiplication This should multiply the signed accumulator and the signed memory operand giving a double length result in the A and Q registers. > > >> 13 Divide > > HMMM, the command takes very long but the results are > very strange. I thought it might be some type of > random number generation by an irreducible polynomal, > but it is definitively not Divide. Maybe here is something > different or wrong with the microcode. This divides a signed DOUBLE LENGTH number in the A and Q registers by a signed memory operand. IIRC the A register gets the result and the Q register the remainder. > >> 14 Shift > > In PART: Here exist many subgroups of commands including > shift left/right. Also the Q as you call it can be transferred > to Accu and vice versa. There als is a MTA (MoveToAccu as I call it) > which is a two-word instruction (most others are one-word) and > transfers the word following this command into Accu. About > 16 bit patterns have (at least to me now) the same meaning in > this segment. Shifting by the entire word length does transfer Q to A or A to Q (but the data disappears from the source). A load immediate instruction would have been very handy. There was also a block move instruction here in the 18 bit machines. Maybe some of the special 15 orders were encoded in the 14 order on the 12 bit machines with only 256 numbers available compared with 8k on the 18 bitters. > > >> 15 Input/Output and special (like interrupt return) > > Yes, in part as well. Commands for sending and receiving > via the serial links I found here. > >> 16 to 31, as above but indexed by B register. > > NOPE - The box is 12-bit and does not have got this block. > EVERYTHING is done via the index register I as I called it. Do you mean you cannot turn the B-register modification off? Does it get cleared automatically somehow? > > > > So > > ####### > # # # ##### ###### # # ## > # # # # # # # # # # > ##### # # # # ##### #### # # > # # # ##### # # # ###### > # # # # # # # # # # > ####### #### # # ###### # # # # Eh? > > the box is a 12-bit version of the Elliot series of Computer. > Lot of work for rediscovering the instruction set of the 920 > Elliot... > > Roger, do you have got any detailed information on these > you are willing to share with me! I am familar with the above > mentioned instruction set, but some details are still open and > perhaps studying the Elliot would help to solve the remaining > problems??!?!?!! I am willing to try. By the way, there are two 't's in Elliott. > >> In early versions of the 920, the B and Q registers were the same >> register and it and the program counter were held in memory. There > > In this box the registers are stored in "batteries" of 74xxx flip > flops on the processor boards. On the later 920s, the current interrupt levels B register and sequence control register (i.e. program counter) were held in real registers but the other interrupt ones were held in memory. There was extra circuitry to make it so that writing to the current level's B register address actually got trapped and also modified the real register. >> were four levels of interrupt and a set of these registers for each, >> held in location 0 to 7. The high end of memory held a paper tape >> bootstrap, in later versions, this was just copied into core when the >> machine was initialised. > Interesting. The Programmer Electronic Control starts execution > at 0x0a0 after reset. Could it be that there is a value of 0x0A0 at location 0? > But of course the application was different > and the operation software was completely loaded via the big plug > boefore operation. I suspect the big plug is for the OMP (Operator's Monitor Panel), and yes the program would be loaded via this once, probably in the factory or at a maintenance depot, and the machine would probably be rebooted many times afterwards. > >> If this indeed a military machine, you can be sure the memory was >> erase by flipping every bit backwards and forwards several hundred >> times to remove any trace magnetism before it was released from >> the RAF. > Yes you are probably right. I thought just in case there are some > fragements inside it would have been interesting to study them > in order to learn about the instruction set. > > I am sure the unit supports interrupts (one for each serial > port (panavia link I think) and maybe there is an additional > for the timer. This timer has a reload register and > thus can be programmed to arbitrary intervals (12bit, running > at 2MHz). But up to now I was not able to read or write it > nor occured an interrupt. Here studying the Elliot would > really be inspiring - I am very sure that they reused the > know how here as well... The 920 was unusual in that it booted into the highest level interrupt, level 1, so no interrupts will be serviced until you go down an interrupt level or two or three. The 15 order is coded thus: 15 0 to 2047 Input 15 2048 Shift A register left 7 places and OR in a character from the paper tape reader (via OMP) 15 2052 (IIRC) Wait until character pressed on teletype and read into A register (via OMP) 15 4096 to 6143 Output 15 6144 Output character to paper tape punch (via OMP) 15 6148 Output character to teletype (via OMP) if I remember correctly 15 7168 Terminate current program level i.e. return from interrupt 15 7169 Test if standardised IIRC, skip the next instruction if the accumulator is zero or top two bits are different 15 7170 Increment B and skip the next instruction if bottom 13 bits are zero 15 7171 Read the value of the control keys on the OMP 15 7172 Move l.s. 17 bits of A to the m.s. 17 bits of Q. Bottom bit of Q is zeroed 15 7173 Move m.s. 17 bits of Q to l.s. 17 bits of A. Top bit of A is zeroed 15 7174 Move A to B 15 7175 Move B to A 15 7176 Set relative addressing mode 15 7177 Set absolute addressing mode In relative mode, all addresses are relative to the start of the 8k block of memory the instruction is in. In absolute mode (the default), 7,8 and 9 orders are still relative but in all others the address is absolute, so that only the bottom 8k of memory is accessible without using B modifiers. Roger Holmes. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Mar 11 08:44:47 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:44:47 -0300 Subject: baud modifier References: <200703111140.l2BBeGbe014277@hosting.monisys.ca> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110519440.2850@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <006801c763e4$18d40570$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I'm not very keen on microcontroller hacking. Which one would you > recommend for something like this? I'm guessing that for a fixed-speed > job, you'd have the microcontroller, two MAX232 chips, and not much else. Try something AVR (an Atmega 32 as an example) and BASCOM from www.mcselec.com The code is very simple. Try to hack something and if you don't succeed, drop me a personal mail, I cannot cope sometimes with the activity of this list, although I love to read it. Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 09:34:39 2007 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:34:39 +0800 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DBC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DBC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <c14ec2ef0703110734i598246f4u3da1fa34a4eed6d6@mail.gmail.com> On 3/11/07, Rod Smallwood <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> wrote: > Here's my six cents... > > I worked for DEC (twice). > Better engineering and nicer group of people you would not find > again. > > Rod Smallwood > DEC Badge No 45083 Hmm...that's nice and low.. /Wai-Sun Chia DEC Badge no: 403564 waisun at msa.dec.com From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 09:34:39 2007 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:34:39 +0800 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DBC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DBC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <c14ec2ef0703110734i598246f4u3da1fa34a4eed6d6@mail.gmail.com> On 3/11/07, Rod Smallwood <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> wrote: > Here's my six cents... > > I worked for DEC (twice). > Better engineering and nicer group of people you would not find > again. > > Rod Smallwood > DEC Badge No 45083 Hmm...that's nice and low.. /Wai-Sun Chia DEC Badge no: 403564 waisun at msa.dec.com From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Mar 11 09:08:33 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:08:33 -0500 Subject: baud modifier References: <200703111140.l2BBeGbe014277@hosting.monisys.ca> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110519440.2850@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <003401c763e6$c1919540$0701a8c0@win2000> > > Easy to design and build - a single-chip micro with two serial ports would > > fit the bill nicely, otherwise you could bit-bash the slow speed port, or > > use an external UART. Simply set the speed/parity/Dbits/Sbits that you want > > for each port, then copy data between them through buffers - when a buffer > > approaches full, assert flow control on the filling port, when the buffer > > later approaches empty, deassert flow control on the filling port. > > I'm not very keen on microcontroller hacking. Which one would you > recommend for something like this? I'm guessing that for a fixed-speed > job, you'd have the microcontroller, two MAX232 chips, and not much else. Yep... A micro, two interface chips, a couple of caps, and a power supply. Most controllers don't have a lot of writable memory so, if you need a large buffer, you'll need an external memory chip. Unless I'm missing something, that should do it. This sounds like a cool little project. I don't have anything that demands a slower bit stream otherwise, I might consider building one. Although, I'd probably hang a $5 LCD on it so I could monitor the data and handshaking. I really like the ATMEL microprocessors. For $80.00 you can get a *complete* development suite (STK500) and start plugging away. A great tool at a very reasonable price. The processors run from about $1 to $5 in single quanities depending on the features. I am seriously considering a microcontroller based SERIAL to HPIB protocol converter. Has anyone else tried this? SteveRob From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 11 10:40:34 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:40:34 -0500 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110519440.2850@helios.cs.csubak.edu> References: <200703111140.l2BBeGbe014277@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703111540.l2BFeagu009804@hosting.monisys.ca> > I'm not very keen on microcontroller hacking. Which one would you > recommend for something like this? I'm guessing that for a fixed-speed > job, you'd have the microcontroller, two MAX232 chips, and not much else. Doesn't much matter - the task is simple enough that pretty much any architecture will work. Heres some things to consider when selecting one: - Two UARTS - as noted previously this is not a show-stopper requirement, however it will make your life a lot easier. The alternatives are to bit-bash the slower port which requires careful timing and/or interrupts and is probably not a good starter project, or to add an external UART - which means you will have to wire an external bus. - Internal RAM. The more the better, because the larger you can make your buffers, the more efficient your flow control will be (there's always some small delay with starting/stopping ... especially of you need to use XON/XOFF type control). Assuming you have flow control available, then 128-256 bytes in each direction should be fine (if the fast computer never asserts flow control on receive data then you could get away with less (none) on the slow->fast direction. If the fast side does not accept fow control, then you are going to need a LOT of buffer in the fast->slow direction and you will most likly have to wire an external bus with external memory. With hardware flow control you can probably get away with less, XON/XOFF you might get away with 64 - I've seen 30-40+ characters come out of some devices AFTER the XOFF character was received, so plan your code accordingly. - Flash based - if don't have programming tools, embedded debuggers etc. a flash based MCU will be much easier to work with - normally you just need a cable to your PC and you simply reload code directly into the microcontroller flash. - Any of the 8-bit Motorola, Intel, Atmel or many others should do fine, use the above criteria to pick a really suitable one. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 11 10:41:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:41:02 -0700 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110519440.2850@helios.cs.csubak.edu> References: <200703111140.l2BBeGbe014277@hosting.monisys.ca>, <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110519440.2850@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <45F3C09E.3972.41DFC1CB@cclist.sydex.com> My recollection is very foggy as I never had a chance to use one of these things, but there were devices (inexpensive) to do this for use with printers (at least in one direction) that would not only buffer up data to be printed, but also do protocol conversions (parallel-to- serial, serial-to-parallel). If someone had a very old Inmac catalog from the 80's, I suspect you might find something there. There were also devices for sharing terminals on a single port sold by Inmac and several other companies. Finding one of these devices themselves would be harder as I suspect that most have long been discarded as peripheral "junk". In a snap, almost any old PC with two serial ports could be programmed to do the same thing. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 11 09:49:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:49:39 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F3AAB3.6080409@bitsavers.org> References: <45F3AAB3.6080409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45F41703.4050903@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > >> The web as subsumed all of this, in an inferior fashion, IMHO. > > > Yeah, but I think of the things I used to easily find with archie and > > now I can't find them at all with google even with targetted searches > > for specific filenames. > > Google doesn't spider for filenames, just content. If a list of filenames > doesn't show up on a web page, Google won't see it. It's why I've mentioned a few times that I think some sort of mechanism to share "who has what" for the vintage community - tailored for our specific needs - would be nice. That way someone searching for content only needs to find a site participating in the scheme, and then it can use *its* search mechanism to find information. Rather than some process trying to guess what information makes up a page (as with Google), I'd see it more that people with participating sites would explicitly publish what they had available so share - at least giving control over what could appear in search results. Kind of like manx - but with the interface side distributable across multiple sites (plus I can never remember if the data for manx is driven by the "owners" of the content or by people entering info when they happen to stumble across something) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 11 10:59:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F41703.4050903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <296498.86512.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > It's why I've mentioned a few times that I think > some sort of mechanism to > share "who has what" for the vintage community - > tailored for our specific > needs - would be nice. That way someone searching > for content only needs to > find a site participating in the scheme, and then it > can use *its* search > mechanism to find information. IT'S WHY I SUGGESTED SOMETIME AGO ON A WEBRING TYPE THING FOR VINTIJ FOLK. EVERYONE IS IN CHARGE OF SOMETHING. AND YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO TIE IT ALTOGETHER AND THAT FACILITATES SEARCHES. BUT OF COURSE EVERYONE IGNORED IT! OI VAY U HOSERZ!!! I bought my own domain. And of course I aim to archive all the groovy ICBM incompatible stuph I can find. Tony Duell stole my terminology. The other idea I had was to arrange a marathon lol. Everyone would "get together" for like a 24-hour period (or maybe even a week) and busy themselves with scarfing up all the vintij goodies they could find on the net. There's still stuff out there if you look long and hard enough. You got to use your noggins though :). ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 11 10:07:25 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:07:25 -0500 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DBC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DBC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <45F41B2D.1010301@yahoo.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: [why DEC] > Here's my six cents... > > I worked for DEC (twice). OK, so I've reached the conclusion that DEC fans are as completely nuts as the rest of us ;) Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Mar 11 11:18:25 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:18:25 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <22280724.1173629905225.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I've been out in my shop this morning getting some VT52 DecScopes out of the back corner to prep them for shipping. I decided to boot up the old Wofford Witch PDP-11/40, since it has not been booted since November. While it's up and running, I think I am going to set up my camcorder and take some videos of the front panel as the lights blink, the LA120 Decwriter III console during the RSTS/E V7 startup process, the ASR-33 teletype as it clanks away running SYSTAT, the VT05 terminal during a video display, as well as the LA36, VT52, RL02, RK05, etc. I will hopefully find time to put these videos on my web site http://www.woffordwitch.com later today. I will show how to load an RL02 pack, an RK05 pack, etc. Is there anything in particular anyone is interested in while I am making videos? Hopefully someone will find these little video clips interesting or useful. I know that there have been times in the past where somebody would acquire an RL02 drive or RK05 drive and wish that someone could show them how to load a disk pack properly. Let me know if there is anything else that might be of interest while I have a few minutes and am not being summoned by "she who must be obeyed". :-) Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Mar 11 11:25:17 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:25:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <4399171.1173630317252.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just looked at my message in "digest mode", and the word wrapping was bad, so I am reposting. I've been out in my shop this morning getting some VT52 DecScopes out of the back corner to prep them for shipping. I decided to boot up the old Wofford Witch PDP-11/40, since it has not been booted since November. While it's up and running, I think I am going to set up my camcorder and take some videos of the front panel as the lights blink, the LA120 Decwriter III console during the RSTS/E V7 startup process, the ASR-33 teletype as it clanks away running SYSTAT, the VT05 terminal during a video display, as well as the LA36, VT52, RL02, RK05, etc. I will hopefully find time to put these videos on my web site http://www.woffordwitch.com later today. I will show how to load an RL02 pack, an RK05 pack, etc. Is there anything in particular anyone is interested in while I am making videos? Hopefully someone will find these little video clips interesting or useful. I know that there have been times in the past where somebody would acquire an RL02 drive or RK05 drive and wish that someone could show them how to load a disk pack properly. Let me know if there is anything else that might be of interest while I have a few minutes and am not being summoned by "she who must be obeyed". :-) Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Mar 11 11:43:19 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:43:19 +0000 Subject: Meiko pictures. In-Reply-To: <45F3D464.1030608@machineroom.info> References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> <45F3D464.1030608@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <45F431A7.2090203@gifford.co.uk> James wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: >> So I went into the erm, server room, and pulled apart the Meiko nodes >> and took some pictures. > A thing of beauty. > I recall my University (Bristol Poly/UWE) had a Meiko. It must have been > the larger model as it stood 6' tall and was about 3' wide in black. > Looked like the monolith from 2001 :) I think I saw that in the skip (dumpster) when I was at UWE (1998-2001). Still looked like a black monolith, but seemed to have been emptied of boards. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Mar 11 12:06:45 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:06:45 -0700 Subject: Value of a PDP/8? Message-ID: <0a4584ccf5aab1f27921fa34ce5a065a@valleyimplants.com> Speaking as a youngster (I was in the sort-of midrange bracket, my elementary/middle school had a reasonably well equipped Apple IIc (& clone)/ IIgs lab that we actually learned programming on, then high school had 2 XT clones and 2 Mac Pluses for general use, and about 25 386s kept under lock and key for learning typing, then when I got to college I missed the VAX years-we were on Suns) the DEC bit was due partially to reputation and, perhaps, partially due to advertising (after the children's programming on PBS they ran McNeil/Lehrer, and right at the start they did the "brought to you by Digital Equipment" with the Digital logo. Still remember that). Anyway- I was old enough to remember the technical buzz about Alpha when it came out, and of course I later learned how 4BSD was written on and for VAXen. I don't have a huge DEC collection (VAX 4000/200, VAXstation 3100/76 (cobbled together, it seems to mostly work) DEC 3000, AlphaServer 1000a, Multia (my first machine, I was getting desparate...) Haven't found any PDPs in the area/within my price range, but based on my experience there are two manufacturers who do really nice console firmware, one of them is DEC (SRM/later VAX consoles), and the other is Sun. DEC marketing was terrible, though (arbitrary hardware limits, extreme proprietariness, random direction changing (sounds a bit like SGI...) It's a testament to DEC engineering, though, that HP hasn't been able to kill off the Alpha after several years of trying. It's back, at least for another month. It will be interesting to see what today's children are interested in. AFAIK few school districts do programming now, and most are running PCs. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 12:12:49 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:12:49 -0800 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <200703100115.l2A1FIrn016169@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <E1HPpV6-0008Mg-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703100115.l2A1FIrn016169@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703111012u1b956a6cl2e8d156e3717cda2@mail.gmail.com> On 3/9/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > I believe mine was used for CD-ROM. Its a CMD controller. > > CMD made good speedy controllers. Mine are Viking (or rebadged Vikings), > which I believe are noted for being solid, but slow. > I'm glad you mentioned CD-ROMs on Q-Bus SCSI controllers. I didn't occur to me previously to try that. I just gave it a try and got it to work. I have a Dilog SQ706A Q-Bus MSCP SCSI controller. I cabled it to a Plextor PX-6XCS SCSI CD-ROM. I used E11 to boot the RL02 XXDP disk image and created a bootable RD51 XXDP disk image. Then I used CDBURN on Windows 2000 to burn the RD51 disk image to a CD-R as though the disk image were an .ISO image. Then stuck the CD-R into the PX-6XCS and booted it up as DU0 on the SQ706A in the 11/73 into XXDP. I flipped the 512-byte block switch on the PX-6XCS before trying this thinking that was probably necessary. I just flipped it back and tried again and verified that it doesn't work without the 512-byte block switch being set. So now I assume that if my MicroVAX-II/III box is working OK and if I obtain a VAX VMS installation CD I should be able to use the SQ706A in the MicroVAX box to boot and install from the VMS CD. I'll have to give that a try. -Glen From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 11 14:03:08 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:03:08 -0800 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703111012u1b956a6cl2e8d156e3717cda2@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1HPpV6-0008Mg-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703100115.l2A1FIrn016169@onyx.spiritone.com> <1e1fc3e90703111012u1b956a6cl2e8d156e3717cda2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <p0624081fc21a017fb737@[192.168.1.199]> At 9:12 AM -0800 3/11/07, Glen Slick wrote: >I'm glad you mentioned CD-ROMs on Q-Bus SCSI controllers. I didn't >occur to me previously to try that. I just gave it a try and got it >to work. > >I have a Dilog SQ706A Q-Bus MSCP SCSI controller. I cabled it to a >Plextor PX-6XCS SCSI CD-ROM. I used E11 to boot the RL02 XXDP disk >image and created a bootable RD51 XXDP disk image. Then I used CDBURN >on Windows 2000 to burn the RD51 disk image to a CD-R as though the >disk image were an .ISO image. Then stuck the CD-R into the PX-6XCS >and booted it up as DU0 on the SQ706A in the 11/73 into XXDP. I >flipped the 512-byte block switch on the PX-6XCS before trying this >thinking that was probably necessary. I just flipped it back and >tried again and verified that it doesn't work without the 512-byte >block switch being set. Cool! is this the Caddy 6x drive? I collect the Plextor caddy drives whenever I can find them. I think I'm up to 3 6x drives, and 1 8x (which is the drive in my PDP-11). Now you also know how to get more interesting OS's on your PDP-11 :^) Though I've yet to figure out how to get RSTS/E to come up from a write protected CD, my memory is feeling fuzzy this morning, but I don't think anyone else has either. For the limited number of CD's you'll find for a PDP-11 caddy drives work great. Basically there are the two DECUS CD's from Tim Shoppa, and what you make yourself. >So now I assume that if my MicroVAX-II/III box is working OK and if I >obtain a VAX VMS installation CD I should be able to use the SQ706A in >the MicroVAX box to boot and install from the VMS CD. I'll have to >give that a try. That is correct. Do you have the Hobbyist Licenses yet? You'll probably want to start working on that first. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 14:38:35 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 12:38:35 -0700 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <p0624081fc21a017fb737@192.168.1.199> References: <E1HPpV6-0008Mg-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703100115.l2A1FIrn016169@onyx.spiritone.com> <1e1fc3e90703111012u1b956a6cl2e8d156e3717cda2@mail.gmail.com> <p0624081fc21a017fb737@192.168.1.199> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703111238t58ad9015r90e7abaef328a263@mail.gmail.com> On 3/11/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > Cool! is this the Caddy 6x drive? I collect the Plextor caddy drives > whenever I can find them. I think I'm up to 3 6x drives, and 1 8x > (which is the drive in my PDP-11). The Plextor PX-6XCS is indeed an external SCSI CD-ROM Caddy 6x drive. I'll keep my eye out for more of these if find them cheap locally. I just checked the Plextor manual for the PX-32CSi/e (Caddy) and PX-32TSi/e (Tray) series and they still have 512-byte Block jumpers. Those models don't seem to be too hard to find locally. There are some on Craigslist locally right now. > That is correct. Do you have the Hobbyist Licenses yet? You'll > probably want to start working on that first. > > Zane I don't have the Hobbyist Licenses yet. I'll take care of that after making sure the MicroVAX II/III hardware seems to be working. -Glen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 11 14:28:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:28:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> from "David Griffith" at Mar 11, 7 01:53:05 am Message-ID: <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > > I'm thinking of a device that would step down the speed of an rs232 > connection from, say, 9600 to 110. The idea is to allow a computer that > can't do 110 to talk to an ASR33 teletype. Does such a device exist? Are there many computers (apart from the BBC Micro!) that can do 9600 baud but not 110 baud? I ask merely for information. > What's it really called? Does anyone have any schematics for one? I believe it's a subset of the functionality of an RS232 'protocol convereter'. Of course 'protocol conmverter' covers a lot more than things with an RS232 itnerface on each side, but I've references to units that will change baud rates, parity, etc. I have a thing called a 'Ferret'. It comes in an attache' case sort of housing, and it has the lights-n-switches of an RS232 breakout box, a couple of ZIF sockets, cassette interface jacks, D-connectors for RS232, current loop, and parallel, a keypad., LCD display, and strip printer. Amongst the features of this unit is that it will interface between Rs232 and current loop _with different baud rates on the 2 interfaces_. Sounds like just what you need, but no idea where you'd find one. BTW, it'll also do serial (Rs232 or current loop) to parallel interfaceing, work as an EPROM programmer, print out data from either serial interface, act as a line monitor on an RS232 interfacem etc. You can even program it yourself in Z80 machine code. 'Electronics, The Maplin Magazine' (A UK electronics mag, now long defunct, published by Maplin who were a major hobbyist component supplier back then [1]) did a series of projects to make a RTTY station. One of them was a baud/protocol convereter (to converter bwrween 5-bit 45.5 baud RTTY and, say, an 8 bit 1200 baud computer serial port). IIRC, it was a couple of dumb40 pin UART, some kind of clock gneerator, and a little (very little) glue logic. Agai, I have no idea where you'd find the article now, but it did include a schematic. [1] Maplin, the company, are still going, but their range of components is a joke. They now mostly sell electornic toys, Lo-Fi, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 11 14:33:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:33:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <200703111140.l2BBeGbe014277@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Mar 11, 7 06:40:13 am Message-ID: <m1HQTnF-000J11C@p850ug1> > > I have devices that will do this - these are actually RS-232 data switches > that I designed in the 80s. It was a whole line ranging in size from 8 to 56 In fornt of me i have something called a 'NetCommander' made by 'Digitial Products In (the SUB-LAN Company)'. It's got 16 RS232 ports, and you can tell it to 'connect' any port to any other port with different baud rates on the 2 sides. The Rs232 ports are on plug-in cards (2 ports to a card), so I guess parallel cards also existed. I do have a smaller one, all on one baord, with 6 RS232 ports and 4 parallel ports IIRC. Never done much with it, maybe I should... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 11 14:44:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:44:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <45F3C09E.3972.41DFC1CB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 11, 7 08:41:02 am Message-ID: <m1HQTyR-000J16C@p850ug1> > that most have long been discarded as peripheral "junk". In a snap, > almost any old PC with two serial ports could be programmed to do > the same thing. Another idea (less bulk) would be to wire a microcontroller ton an ISA card with 2 serial ports (either a dual async card or a mulit-I/O card, or whatever). This would save you having to wire up the RS232 buffers, it would also avoid having to bit-bang either port (I have this ingrained dislike of bit-banger serial ports....) -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 11 14:52:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:52:05 -0600 Subject: can someone here host mono? Message-ID: <E1HQU5N-0000S3-00@xmission.xmission.com> If someone can provide me with an environment that will host mono and its asp.net clone, then I can build some web site tools for us faster than if I just have access to raw PHP/MySQL. This is currently in the "test" debian distribution, which XMission will move to when it comes out of test, but who knows how long that will be. At that time I'll have the environment available to me on my xmission account. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 11 15:55:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 12:55:21 -0800 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703111238t58ad9015r90e7abaef328a263@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1HPpV6-0008Mg-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703100115.l2A1FIrn016169@onyx.spiritone.com> <1e1fc3e90703111012u1b956a6cl2e8d156e3717cda2@mail.gmail.com> <p0624081fc21a017fb737@192.168.1.199> <1e1fc3e90703111238t58ad9015r90e7abaef328a263@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <p06240822c21a1bdfe565@[192.168.1.199]> At 12:38 PM -0700 3/11/07, Glen Slick wrote: >On 3/11/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: >>Cool! is this the Caddy 6x drive? I collect the Plextor caddy drives >>whenever I can find them. I think I'm up to 3 6x drives, and 1 8x >>(which is the drive in my PDP-11). > >The Plextor PX-6XCS is indeed an external SCSI CD-ROM Caddy 6x drive. >I'll keep my eye out for more of these if find them cheap locally. I >just checked the Plextor manual for the PX-32CSi/e (Caddy) and >PX-32TSi/e (Tray) series and they still have 512-byte Block jumpers. >Those models don't seem to be too hard to find locally. There are >some on Craigslist locally right now. The 32x drives are quite nice, I have one in my PWS 433au, that I really should figure out how to move to my main XP1000 (right now I'm using the IDE CD-ROM drive it shipped with). Another Plextor drive to keep an eye out for is the 16x CD-R/RW drive. I have one that I bought new, and I believe it was the last of their SCSI CD burners. My main "floater" drive is an old 4x SCSI CD-ROM that was originally purchased for my PowerBook 520c. I've not tried it on a PDP-11, but every other system I've attached it to has liked it. Which reminds me, I need to find out if my Mom still needs it (it has spent way to much time on loan to her of late so she can hook it up to the antique P90 laptop I gave her over 10 years ago and read old CD-ROM's). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 11 15:29:12 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703111321530.2779@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'm thinking of a device that would step down the speed of an rs232 > > connection from, say, 9600 to 110. The idea is to allow a computer that > > can't do 110 to talk to an ASR33 teletype. Does such a device exist? > > Are there many computers (apart from the BBC Micro!) that can do 9600 > baud but not 110 baud? I ask merely for information. The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 (single board pdp8e clone) allows 38,400, 9600, 1200, and 300. There's a permanent mod that adds 110, but I'm put off by the permanent part. You also lose the 38,400 setting. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 11 11:47:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:47:28 -0700 Subject: baud modifier Message-ID: <45F3D030.7140.421C961B@cclist.sydex.com> Terminal switchers that accommodate baud rate differences are still made: http://www.networktechinc.com/srvsw-term.html# Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 11 15:54:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:54:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703111321530.2779@helios.cs.csubak.edu> from "David Griffith" at Mar 11, 7 01:29:12 pm Message-ID: <m1HQV3Y-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > Are there many computers (apart from the BBC Micro!) that can do 9600 > > baud but not 110 baud? I ask merely for information. > > The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 (single board pdp8e clone) allows 38,400, > 9600, 1200, and 300. There's a permanent mod that adds 110, but I'm put > off by the permanent part. You also lose the 38,400 setting. Does it support hardware flow control on the console port? If not, then you're going to have a problem if the machine is seding characters at, say, 1200 (about 120 cps) baud and your tty is only taking them at 110 baud (about 10 cps, since 110 baud often implies 2 stop bits). You've got to have a way to tell the faster side to stop sending for a bit. What does the mod consist of? I can't believe it's really permanent (although it might well involve soldering to undo it). Losing 38400 buad is surely not a problem, since few, if any, classic terminals ran at that speed, and you don't _need_ that sort of data rate for a tectual terminal anyway. -tony From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Sun Mar 11 12:08:31 2007 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:08:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation (Re: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)) In-Reply-To: <20070310092336.GY18564@lug-owl.de> References: <f4eb766f0703092129n50b8e792m74c486725eeb5ea6@mail.gmail.com> <45F24E4C.700@gmail.com> <20070310092336.GY18564@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703111104440.19394@porky.vax-11.org> On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Sat, 2007-03-10 01:21:00 -0500, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>> I think a 11/750 makes a fine single-user VMS "workstation" ;-) >>>> Never trust a workstation that couldn't roll over you and smash you flat? >>> >>> I almost had an 11/750 land on me, but I was able to coax it out of >>> the side door of a Chevy Astro mini-Van (alone) without getting >>> squished or pinched. That was a fun experience. >> >> I once (with the help of a bunch of other people) was attempting to >> unload a DECsystem 5810 (a VAX 6000-300, except with MIPS CPUs -- I got >> the machine from Dave McGuire the first time I met him, and I still have >> it) from a rental truck down the ramp and it started to tip off the side >> of the ramp towards me. I wasn't standing at the time. It landed on me >> as I was kneeling down. I caught it. > > We (three friends and myself) once brought my VAX 6320 down into a > friend's basement. The box fittet the stairs quite exactly and all > four of us had quite aching bones for a month. OTOH, I don't think > that this box will come /out/ there ever. Maybe except if being cutted > down into pieces... > > MfG, JBG > > I moved not one but two 11/780's into my basement by myself. I had to remove every thing from inside the frame and carry it down the stairs (CPU cardcage was the worst) then use a cable hoist to slide the frame down the stairs. I also moved an 11/750 down the stairs fully loaded (no sheetmetal though.) When I move I think I'll pay somebody to get them back out.... Clint From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 11 16:20:29 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:20:29 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > My problem is that running an anonymous ftp site and having it properly > configured so that it can't be misused, and it doesn't effect my ability > to connect to FTP sites out on the net from my internal network is a > resource drain. How about closing down FTP and setting up a chrooted sftp account? I would hope that anyone interested in the archive has access to a machine that can run an sftp client. > I think it was close to 6 years ago I archived a lot of the PDP-11 > related stuff out there on FTP sites, as well as PDP-8, Dec > Professional, and DECmate software. At the time my big problem was > storing the stuff. I split it up so that it would fit on CD-R's. I > really should try to update the archive and rebuild it as DVD's, but > there is that pesky "real life" and to many other things to do. I've > not made any of these available as a mirror, in part because I simply > don't have the bandwidth. If I were voting, I'd say leave it grouped as CDs. I may be a retrograde lunatic, but when the package groups themselves are small, I find it a lot easier to find things when they're on 8 CDs vs 1 DVD. Oh, and thanks! As you know, your archive has been a lot of help to me more than once. Doc From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 11 16:29:51 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <m1HQV3Y-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <m1HQV3Y-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703111419440.6254@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Are there many computers (apart from the BBC Micro!) that can do 9600 > > > baud but not 110 baud? I ask merely for information. > > > > The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 (single board pdp8e clone) allows 38,400, > > 9600, 1200, and 300. There's a permanent mod that adds 110, but I'm put > > off by the permanent part. You also lose the 38,400 setting. > > Does it support hardware flow control on the console port? If not, then > you're going to have a problem if the machine is seding characters at, > say, 1200 (about 120 cps) baud and your tty is only taking them at 110 > baud (about 10 cps, since 110 baud often implies 2 stop bits). You've > got to have a way to tell the faster side to stop sending for a bit. I'm not sure. I just want to drop 300 down to 110. > What does the mod consist of? I can't believe it's really permanent > (although it might well involve soldering to undo it). Losing 38400 buad > is surely not a problem, since few, if any, classic terminals ran at that > speed, and you don't _need_ that sort of data rate for a tectual terminal > anyway. The mod is discussed in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sparetimegizmos/message/580 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Mar 11 16:43:00 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:43:00 -0300 Subject: baud modifier References: <200703111140.l2BBeGbe014277@hosting.monisys.ca><Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110519440.2850@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <003401c763e6$c1919540$0701a8c0@win2000> Message-ID: <018d01c76426$8994e580$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I am seriously considering a microcontroller based SERIAL to HPIB protocol > converter. Has anyone else tried this? It would be great, I'm on that if you use an AVR micro :) From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 11 16:56:11 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:56:11 -0500 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> from "David Griffith" at Mar 11, 7 01:53:05 am Message-ID: <200703112155.l2BLtuTh007737@mail4.magma.ca> > Are there many computers (apart from the BBC Micro!) that can do 9600 > baud but not 110 baud? I ask merely for information. I've see a number - for various reasons. - Some use DIP switches to set the rate, so the limit it to "common" settings, and in post-TTY days, "nobody uses 110". - Some use an off-the shelf baud rate generator (often tied into a UART like the 6552), and for whatever reasons, provided it with 1/2 the rate clock - this 300 becomes 150, 600 becomes 300, 1200 becomes 600 etc.... since the off-the-shelf parts don't do 220, 110 gets lost. - Some just don't "feel" like offering all the available options provided by the hardware. > Another idea (less bulk) would be to wire a microcontroller ton an ISA > card with 2 serial ports (either a dual async card or a mulit-I/O card, > or whatever). This would save you having to wire up the RS232 buffers, it > would also avoid having to bit-bang either port (I have this ingrained > dislike of bit-banger serial ports....) If the device is dedicated to <high-speed> to 110 bps conversion, bit-bang might make sense - At 110, bit-bang is pretty easy, and can be accomplished with a simple interrupt without too much overhead (and what overhead it does cause isn't enough to swamp the box which is doing a very simple function otherwise). I'd go bit-bang for the 110bps port on a single-chip micro before I'd go to the hassle of wiring up an external bus, no matter it it's to an ISA card or another dedicated UART. As someone else pointed out, if size & power requirements are not a concern, this would be very easily done with an old PC - even an XT would have plenty of go for this job. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Mar 11 17:06:18 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:06:18 +0000 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <200703100836.l2A8ZPMx050804@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703100836.l2A8ZPMx050804@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <D63967D8-6635-4EF7-9D45-0787253D7AA5@microspot.co.uk> I showed the pictures to someone who worked on Tornado at Marconi Avionics. He said the box is definitely not part of either the CSAS (Command Stability Augmentation System) nor AFDS (AutoPilot & Flight Director System). He thought it was physically much too big for the HUD (Head Up Display). Roger Holmes. From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Mar 11 17:08:38 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:08:38 +0000 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> On 11/03/07, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Are there many computers (apart from the BBC Micro!) that can do 9600 > baud but not 110 baud? I ask merely for information. > I am fairly sure I persuaded a beeb to do 110 once, for dial-up to a cetain university to play MUD.. I think it was as simple as changing a jumper over, but this was about 25 years ago and so i forget exactly which one.. It was certainly a non-permenant mod.. On 11/03/07, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > [1] Maplin, the company, are still going, but their range of components > is a joke. They now mostly sell electornic toys, Lo-Fi, etc. Tell me about it... I cleaned out two stores this weekend to get enough 33uF 25V electrolytics for a repair I was doing... hardly exotic, I thought, but the total quantity between two stores? Five! Rob From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 11 17:59:03 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703111558060.6254@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007, Rob wrote: > On 11/03/07, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > > [1] Maplin, the company, are still going, but their range of components > > is a joke. They now mostly sell electornic toys, Lo-Fi, etc. > > Tell me about it... I cleaned out two stores this weekend to get > enough 33uF 25V electrolytics for a repair I was doing... hardly > exotic, I thought, but the total quantity between two stores? Five! Sounds like Radio Shack here in the US. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 11 18:04:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the Tandy 2000 and GIFs Message-ID: <545707.59077.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> according to this: http://www.preterhuman.net/texts/computing/general/format.txt there is a program by which the T2K can display gif images. The only graphics package (besides Autocad) that was graphics oriented was Lumena, and that was so old I sincerely doubt gifs were around then. If anyone happens to know if this is true, please inform. That site seems to have a number of text files archived, some possibly vintage oriented. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 11 19:31:23 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:31:23 -0500 Subject: the Tandy 2000 and GIFs In-Reply-To: <545707.59077.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200703112331.l2BNVSLe054682@keith.ezwind.net> Compuserve had a gif viewer editor for just about everything that could display graphics. What ever happened to tha old compuserve GIF utilities. The other Bob On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT), Chris M wrote: >according to this: >http://www.preterhuman.net/texts/computing/general/format.txt >there is a program by which the T2K can display gif >images. The only graphics package (besides Autocad) >that was graphics oriented was Lumena, and that was so >old I sincerely doubt gifs were around then. If anyone >happens to know if this is true, please inform. > That site seems to have a number of text files >archived, some possibly vintage oriented. > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Bored stiff? Loosen up... >Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. >http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Mar 11 19:25:57 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:25:57 -0500 Subject: baud modifier Message-ID: <01C76413.4DDC7C00@MSE_D03> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:47:28 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: Re: baud modifier >Terminal switchers that accommodate baud rate differences are still >made: >http://www.networktechinc.com/srvsw-term.html# >Cheers, >Chuck ------------------------------------------- I've still got a few NC-16 Net Commanders that are similar to those units in case anyone's interested. Same as the one Tony mentioned, but single board, RS-232 only, 110 to 19200 baud. mike From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Mar 11 19:09:01 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:09:01 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> References: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200703120009.l2C093BU009042@mail.bcpl.net> On 10 Mar 2007 at 15:21, Al Kossow wrote: > The web as subsumed all of this, in an inferior fashion, IMHO. > You will notice that bitsavers looks exactly the same as it did as > an anonymous ftp site on its previous host. It would be nice if Bitsavers' host allowed anonymous FTP. One of the inferior things that Web browsers do, in my view, is date-stamp a downloaded file with today's date rather than the date from the host. I have to use wget to download files via http if I want correct time stamps. Jay, would you consider enabling anonymous FTP access to bitsavers.org? -- Dave From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Mar 11 19:30:26 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:30:26 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <4399171.1173630317252.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070311192908.0afb9188@localhost> At 11:25 AM 3/11/2007 -0500, you wrote: >I just looked at my message in "digest mode", and >the word wrapping was bad, so I am reposting. > >I've been out in my shop this morning getting Um, no, actually the other message was preferable, this one is wrapped to a little tiny fraction of the width. I'd like to see the blinkenlights on the front panel. -T ----- 106. [Computing] B can be thought of as C without types; more accurately, it is BCPL squeezed into 8K bytes of memory and filtered through Thompson's brain. --Dennis Ritchie --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 11 19:36:38 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:36:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <4399171.1173630317252.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <4399171.1173630317252.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <FB8C9929-0EBE-4B02-A9C5-9BB8E4B395BB@neurotica.com> On Mar 11, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Ashley Carder wrote: > I've been out in my shop this morning getting > some VT52 DecScopes out of the back corner to > prep them for shipping. I decided to boot up > the old Wofford Witch PDP-11/40, since it has > not been booted since November. While it's up > and running, I think I am going to set up my > camcorder and take some videos of the front panel > as the lights blink, the LA120 Decwriter III > console during the RSTS/E V7 startup process, > the ASR-33 teletype as it clanks away running > SYSTAT, the VT05 terminal during a video display, > as well as the LA36, VT52, RL02, RK05, etc. I think this is a fantastic idea! > I will show how to load an RL02 pack, an RK05 pack, > etc. Is there anything in particular anyone is > interested in while I am making videos? If you are so inclined, I think it might be good to have a video of you toggling in and running a bootstrap from the front panel, even if you have a boot ROM in the machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 11 20:36:41 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:36:41 -0600 Subject: the Tandy 2000 and GIFs In-Reply-To: <200703112331.l2BNVSLe054682@keith.ezwind.net> References: <545707.59077.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <200703112331.l2BNVSLe054682@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070311182342.072c6da0@mail> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT), Chris M wrote: >The only graphics package (besides Autocad) >that was graphics oriented was Lumena, and that was so >old I sincerely doubt gifs were around then. GIF was developed by Compuserve in 1987, although at that point they were also pushing RLE images. Yes, Lumena predates that by at least four years. AutoCAD is vector oriented, not pixel-oriented, although at some point Autodesk may have introduced a tool that rasterized a vector drawing and exported it as GIF. At 06:31 PM 3/11/2007, Bob Bradlee wrote: >Compuserve had a gif viewer editor for just about everything that could display graphics. >What ever happened to tha old compuserve GIF utilities. Same as all the rest of the interesting files at Compuserve: protected into oblivion when they were steamrolled by the Web. I wonder if they bothered to keep backup tapes of all the forum discussions and file collections. That would be endlessly fascinating for historical purposes... millions of posts going back to the early 80s... Maybe a few will turn up some day. - John From vrs at msn.com Sun Mar 11 19:48:22 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:48:22 -0700 Subject: baud modifier References: <m1HQV3Y-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <048001c76440$235ab460$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >> The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 (single board pdp8e clone) allows 38,400, >> 9600, 1200, and 300. There's a permanent mod that adds 110, but I'm put >> off by the permanent part. You also lose the 38,400 setting. > > Does it support hardware flow control on the console port? If not, then > you're going to have a problem if the machine is seding characters at, > say, 1200 (about 120 cps) baud and your tty is only taking them at 110 > baud (about 10 cps, since 110 baud often implies 2 stop bits). You've > got to have a way to tell the faster side to stop sending for a bit. It doesn't, as-shipped, though I see enough spares in the the schematic to implement RTS flow control. > What does the mod consist of? I can't believe it's really permanent > (although it might well involve soldering to undo it). Losing 38400 buad > is surely not a problem, since few, if any, classic terminals ran at that > speed, and you don't _need_ that sort of data rate for a tectual terminal > anyway. The baud rate generator is a 4.9152Mhz can oscillator, a 74HC4040 divider, a header and some jumpers. So, the hack is to simply replace the oscillator with a 1.804Mhz one. I've never seen a can of that frequency, though, and substituting a 1.8432Mhz oscillator would leave you about 2% too fast. 3.579Mhz comes within a percentage point, but you'd need to tap a different pin on the divider, which would probably involve a blue wire. (I used sockets for the oscillator cans on mine, so changing can would be easy for me.) Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 11 20:04:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:04:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703111419440.6254@helios.cs.csubak.edu> from "David Griffith" at Mar 11, 7 02:29:51 pm Message-ID: <m1HQYxO-000J0gC@p850ug1> > I'm not sure. I just want to drop 300 down to 110. Even so, that's 30 cps from the machine (300 baud at 10 bits/char, including start and 1 stop bit) and 10 cps to the teletype (110 baud at 11 bis/chat including start and 2 stop bits). You've still got to have some wat to slow the machine down or stop it sending. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 11 20:14:28 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:14:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <048001c76440$235ab460$6600a8c0@vrsxp> from "Vincent Slyngstad" at Mar 11, 7 05:48:22 pm Message-ID: <m1HQZ7P-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > Does it support hardware flow control on the console port? If not, then [...] > It doesn't, as-shipped, though I see enough spares in the the schematic > to implement RTS flow control. Which owuld presumably be another 'blue wire' mod. > > > What does the mod consist of? I can't believe it's really permanent > > (although it might well involve soldering to undo it). Losing 38400 buad > > is surely not a problem, since few, if any, classic terminals ran at that > > speed, and you don't _need_ that sort of data rate for a tectual terminal > > anyway. > > The baud rate generator is a 4.9152Mhz can oscillator, a 74HC4040 > divider, a header and some jumpers. So, the hack is to simply OK... > replace the oscillator with a 1.804Mhz one. I've never seen a > can of that frequency, though, and substituting a 1.8432Mhz > oscillator would leave you about 2% too fast. 3.579Mhz comes Which would be near enough. I once used a 555 timer as a baud rate generator, and had no problems at all. Used 1% R's and C's, nearest standard values to the ones I'd calculated (I forget what they were), and had no tweeaks. Never had any problems with it. If the use of the links is the obvious one (that is, to select outputs of the '4040 and feed it into some more circuitry), you could make an external PCB with an osiccilator and divider chip on it and connect the output to the appropriate pin on the jumper block. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 11 20:19:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:19:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> from "Rob" at Mar 11, 7 10:08:38 pm Message-ID: <m1HQZCB-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > Are there many computers (apart from the BBC Micro!) that can do 9600 > > baud but not 110 baud? I ask merely for information. > > > > I am fairly sure I persuaded a beeb to do 110 once, for dial-up to a > cetain university to play MUD.. I think it was as simple as changing a > jumper over, but this was about 25 years ago and so i forget exactly > which one.. It was certainly a non-permenant mod.. I wasn't aware of any such jumper... The baud rate generator in the Beeb is inside the Serial ULA (the acutal serial chip is a 6850), and I didn't think there was any way to get that to generate the appropratie output frequency. I certainly remeber the fun a friend of mine had linking an ASR33 to his Beeb, and he was enough of a hacker to know just about every jumper on the board. Output was not a problem, you could bit-bang that using the 'break' signal, but there was no way to read the state of the RxD line for input. We may well have ended up bit-baning it both ways using pins on the user port. > > On 11/03/07, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > > [1] Maplin, the company, are still going, but their range of components > > is a joke. They now mostly sell electornic toys, Lo-Fi, etc. > > Tell me about it... I cleaned out two stores this weekend to get > enough 33uF 25V electrolytics for a repair I was doing... hardly > exotic, I thought, but the total quantity between two stores? Five! I've beem told that 1k resistors (that's the standard, 0.6W 1% resistors, nothing exotic) are 'order only' components at some shops. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Mar 11 20:17:07 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:17:07 +0000 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <45F4AA13.2050501@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/03/2007 09:53, David Griffith wrote: > I'm thinking of a device that would step down the speed of an rs232 > connection from, say, 9600 to 110. The idea is to allow a computer that > can't do 110 to talk to an ASR33 teletype. Does such a device exist? > What's it really called? Does anyone have any schematics for one? I have a device called a MicroFazer that will do this. It was actually sold as a printer buffer, but it has serial as well as parallel input, and serial and parallel output, with several hundred K of buffer in between. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vrs at msn.com Sun Mar 11 21:46:07 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:46:07 -0700 Subject: baud modifier References: <m1HQZ7P-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <049201c76450$9688d6a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >> > Does it support hardware flow control on the console port? If not, then > > [...] > >> It doesn't, as-shipped, though I see enough spares in the the schematic >> to implement RTS flow control. > > Which owuld presumably be another 'blue wire' mod. Yes, though thinking about it some more, I realized it wasn't RTS flow control that is needed (like "reader-run"), but CTS flow control. I don't see a simple way to implement that with what's there. [I'm thinking that ANDing "transmit empty" from the UART and CTS (buffered through the spare receiver in the MAX232) should work to clock the HC74 being used to implement the "done" flop. I don't see the gate, though -- there's a half an HC74 free, but that's about it.] > If the use of the links is the obvious one (that is, to select outputs of > the '4040 and feed it into some more circuitry), you could make an > external PCB with an osiccilator and divider chip on it and connect the > output to the appropriate pin on the jumper block. Yes, that would work. One whole side of the 4x2 header used to jumper baud rates is directly connected to the UART, so it just needs a CMOS clock of the right frequency applied there, and the shorting block removed altogether. Vince From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Mar 11 21:57:36 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:57:36 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > Tom Peters said: >I'd like to see the blinkenlights on the front panel. > >-T Videos in Apple Quicktime format are at: http://www.woffordwitch.com/videos.asp *** WARNING - I have not downsized these videos *** THEY ARE HUGE - you'll be waiting a while if *** you are on dial-up. I'll downsize them later and/or *** put them in another format (wmv?). Ashley From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 11 22:50:09 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 23:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> <45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200703120351.XAA19245@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> My problem is that running an anonymous ftp site and having it >> properly configured so that it can't be misused, and it doesn't >> effect my ability to connect to FTP sites out on the net from my >> internal network is a resource drain. > How about closing down FTP and setting up a chrooted sftp account? How much space are we talking about? I run an anonymous FTP server that I'm reasonably confident is locked down fairly tight, and may be able to find a place for some piles of bits, depending on how big the piles are.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From shumaker at att.net Sun Mar 11 22:52:03 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:52:03 -0800 Subject: the Tandy 2000 and GIFs In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070311182342.072c6da0@mail> References: <545707.59077.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <200703112331.l2BNVSLe054682@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070311182342.072c6da0@mail> Message-ID: <200703120352.l2C3qQb3063129@keith.ezwind.net> FWIW, it's a shadow of it's former self... but the Compuserve vintage computer forum has files for download with dates going back to 1982...... http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=library&webtag=ws-VintageComp ss At 05:36 PM 3/11/2007, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT), Chris M wrote: > >The only graphics package (besides Autocad) > >that was graphics oriented was Lumena, and that was so > >old I sincerely doubt gifs were around then. > >GIF was developed by Compuserve in 1987, although at that >point they were also pushing RLE images. Yes, Lumena predates >that by at least four years. > >AutoCAD is vector oriented, not pixel-oriented, although at >some point Autodesk may have introduced a tool that rasterized >a vector drawing and exported it as GIF. > >At 06:31 PM 3/11/2007, Bob Bradlee wrote: > >Compuserve had a gif viewer editor for just about everything that > could display graphics. > >What ever happened to tha old compuserve GIF utilities. > >Same as all the rest of the interesting files at Compuserve: >protected into oblivion when they were steamrolled by the Web. > >I wonder if they bothered to keep backup tapes of all the >forum discussions and file collections. That would be >endlessly fascinating for historical purposes... millions >of posts going back to the early 80s... Maybe a few will >turn up some day. > >- John From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 11 23:31:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:31:24 -0600 Subject: the Tandy 2000 and GIFs In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:52:03 -0800. <200703120352.l2C3qQb3063129@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <E1HQcBw-0007M0-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <200703120352.l2C3qQb3063129 at keith.ezwind.net>, s shumaker <shumaker at att.net> writes: > FWIW, it's a shadow of it's former self... but the Compuserve vintage > computer forum has files for download with dates going back to 1982...... > > > http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=library&webtag=ws-Vintag eComp Ugh. Have you looked at the file section? Most items are labelled "No subject" and you have to drill into each one to see what it is. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 12 00:49:58 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 00:49:58 -0500 Subject: baud modifier Message-ID: <01C76440.77922720@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:17:07 +0000 From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> Subject: Re: baud modifier >On 11/03/2007 09:53, David Griffith wrote: >> I'm thinking of a device that would step down the speed of an rs232 >> connection from, say, 9600 to 110. The idea is to allow a computer that >> can't do 110 to talk to an ASR33 teletype. Does such a device exist? >> What's it really called? Does anyone have any schematics for one? >I have a device called a MicroFazer that will do this. It was actually >sold as a printer buffer, but it has serial as well as parallel input, >and serial and parallel output, with several hundred K of buffer in >between. >-- >Pete =================================== I have a few of these as well (in case anybody wants one), but mine do NOT do 110 baud (150 minimum); are you sure yours does? Also AFAIK they were all unidirectional (except for XON/XOFF of course). Mine are serial to serial, 150 to 19200bd, 64K buffer BTW. mike From pechter at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 00:05:37 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:05:37 -0400 Subject: Turning a VAX 11/750 into a workstation (Re: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)) In-Reply-To: <p0624081dc219519985f1@192.168.1.199> References: <f4eb766f0703092129n50b8e792m74c486725eeb5ea6@mail.gmail.com> <45F24E4C.700@gmail.com> <20070310092336.GY18564@lug-owl.de> <ee5521f80703100505x41faa876vb6cb552b48f1a77d@mail.gmail.com> <45F37965.1030007@gmail.com> <p0624081dc219519985f1@192.168.1.199> Message-ID: <ee5521f80703112205h63b36573r44630c974f615455@mail.gmail.com> Nope... I did the install on the hardware in my DEC Field Service days... It was a VS11/VSV11 subsystem. Had a raster graphics box hung off an interface on the Unibus. Perhaps it was a CSS (special systems) item. The box was at Fort Monmouth in Central New Jersey. There were diags and manuals in the Fiche under that name. Bill On 3/11/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > At 10:37 PM -0500 3/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >Bill Pechter wrote: > >>The DEC VS11/VSV11 kind of did the earliest "Vax workstation." > >> > >>It was a Qbus graphics subsystem with 20 inch monitor which hooked up to > a > >>Unibus interface. > > > >I'm reasonably certain there was an earlier workstation > >configuration for VAXen. I think the earliest was a UNIBUS-attached > >graphical console for the VAX 11/780. > > > >Peace... Sridhar > > I believe you're thinking of the VAXstation 100 terminal (aka VS100). > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From hexstar at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 00:44:43 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:44:43 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <005f01c76386$8980b6f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <E1HQC2r-00019V-00@xmission.xmission.com> <200703110112.l2B1Cn1h010084@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703101737g43a99e1do7f6d720f001f3e2f@mail.gmail.com> <004601c76384$6c9bef20$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5dc6fd9e0703101833i34385c15p2747a04aea0849cc@mail.gmail.com> <005f01c76386$8980b6f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703112244g5807caa6s1e1031ad6c573852@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I had written.... > >> What is the url for these mac archives you've done? > > To which hexxie replied.... > > I've archived http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/ in its entirety, > > I wasn't asking for the url of the archives themselves, I was asking for > the > public URL of YOUR copy that YOU put up on YOUR bandwidth for the public > :) > > Jay > > > > ah I see now...well I don't currently have that as of right now, mainly because I don't have the bandwidth (my ISP, Comcast blocks the server ports on the home broadband service and requires signing up for one of the $100 a month business broadband plans in order to host a server publicly...I was doing that a while ago in a feeble attempt to be a small host but due to my small budget and me being mercilessly DOS'd by Chinese zombies (reversed the many many IP's...er those that I could capture in the rapidly changing access log) which could not be stopped because Comcast did not handle such attacks and my small budget did not allow for the purchase of the necessary DOS stopping equipment I had to give up the biz for a while as even when I changed IP's they'd just use my host name instead...ugh!...but if you had asked me back then I would've been glad to host my archive on what bandwidth was available-the dos (which was close to 0 :-( ))...the idea I had was that I'd help download the stuff and hold onto it so that when someone else has a server that they'd like to host the files on I'll always have the files and be able to say to that person at any time "hey, I have those files in my archive and would be more then happy to upload them your server at any time"...you see? so perhaps someone would be so kind as to please share with me their list of still up archives? please? I really want to help archive and I can't do that without knowing any of the archives...please help me help you, thanks! :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 12 02:01:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 23:01:38 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703120351.XAA19245@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> <45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> <200703120351.XAA19245@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <p06240828c21aa943e629@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:50 PM -0400 3/11/07, der Mouse wrote: > >> My problem is that running an anonymous ftp site and having it >>> properly configured so that it can't be misused, and it doesn't >>> effect my ability to connect to FTP sites out on the net from my >>> internal network is a resource drain. >> How about closing down FTP and setting up a chrooted sftp account? > >How much space are we talking about? I run an anonymous FTP server >that I'm reasonably confident is locked down fairly tight, and may be >able to find a place for some piles of bits, depending on how big the >piles are.... I like running my own server, it's just that it's no longer a high enough priority that problems will be fixed immediately, unless it's a security issue, at which case the service is likely to be taken down immediately. As for SFTP, I'm not a huge fan. I've killed telnet in favor of ssh, but I can't see a real reason to kill anonymous ftp in favor of sftp. If I'm hitting an anonymous FTP site, I expect to be able to use my standard tools, and as such I think it only fair I serve up the same. What does sftp offer that would benefit an anonymous FTP setup? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From erik at baigar.de Mon Mar 12 01:45:19 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:45:19 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703111737470.182-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703111750360.235-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Hi Roger, thank you for your detailed information. By accident I nearly missed your email since I was not listed to the cctalk mailing list. But this is solved now ;-) I will comment some points of your email now and hopefully I will find the time next week to investigate your other suggestions and hints on the machine. I will give an update next weekend. > > not know how long development of such an aircraft takes but > > the first take-off was in 1974 I think, so this would match > > the design of this box wuite well - what do you think? > Aircraft development takes a long long time. To make it worthwhile > the aircraft has a long service life. Whilst the computers are bullet > proof in an office/home, the temperature extremes, vibration, high G > forces etc in service means that many failures occur and PCBs could > be replaced many times over the years, so do not pay too much notice > of the dates on components of the boards currently installed. OK, I understand this. I do not know much about these issues, but on the internet often the COTS strategy is mentioned and in using standard components, I think moderen aircraft swap technology more often than was done in the 60s and 70s, right? > There were at least four 12 bit versions, and one 13 bit apparently. > Then 12 bit models were the 902, 102C, ARCH 105 and Minim or 12/12. Thank you - I will try to find information on the web in the next days. Compared to the Elliott machines the DECs are very common stuff ;-) > > Yes, that matches - the core memory module already has the > > label GEC. So this is (as I suspected) older than the CPU and > > taken maybe from a different design?! > You have it the wrong way around. The GEC name replaced the Marconi > name, which had earlier replaced Elliott. Core memory was very Thank you for this hint. I checked wikipedia and obviously GEC got involved very early and the name was changed to GEC later (1984). Sorry for my misunderstanding, now I got it. > convenient for military applications and was in use long after it was > replaced in commercial applications. Think of a missile or torpedo > held in stock for many years, stick a power plug into it and program > the target, pull out the plug and then launch it. Only then does the > internal power supply come up, the processor boots up and does its > thing. The internet claimes sometimes, that core memory is less sensitive to radiation, too. This might have been an advantage in certain military applications (really bad applications, honestly speaking). Data retenttion of the core memory should be quite good, but since reading is always destructive, there is the rist, that bad data gets written back. In the case of Programmer Electronic Control, they did quite a lot to adjust the core memory's dirver current automatically according to a temerature measurement of the core. As my experiments show, you have to reduce the current if temperatuere goes up. This physically understandable (1/T). > >> bit 920s before moving on to the Zilog Z8001. > > Hey, than you are a valuable expert on these - do you have > > got any source of intormation about the 920s? > Not directly but I may be able to help. Hey, that is even better. I highly appreciate, that you spend time in sharing your information! Thanks a lot in advance! > > > >> 9 Jump if negative > > RIGHT - all three jumps are relative ones > On the 18 bit machines these were relative to the start of the 8k > memory module the instruction was in. An interesting modification. In my case they are relative and you can jump +/-127 words (crossing any border). Here again, the box uses 1complement and thus jump 0x00 is the same as jump 0x80: An infinite loop! > >> 11 Store program counter (for function return) > > SIMILAR - This stores PC and then does a > > table jump > On the 18 bit machines, it actually stored the program counter + 1 > and the following instruction was either an 8 or a "/8", i.e. 24. Hmm, I do not understand fully what you mean by "the following instruction was either an 8 or a "/8", i.e. 24". The Programmer Electronic Control (Let's call it PEC in the future) stores PC+1 (as your 18bit) to the specified location into core. The new address is taken from the position in memory where the index register points to. So in my case this is a perfect table jump. > >> 12 Multiply > > RIGHT, unsigned multiplication > This should multiply the signed accumulator and the signed memory > operand giving a double length result in the A and Q registers. Results are as you mention, but if either operand is negative, the result contains wrong values. But maybe I check whether this depends on the content of the index register prior to the operation... > >> 13 Divide > > HMMM, the command takes very long but the results are > > very strange. I thought it might be some type of > > random number generation by an irreducible polynomal, > > but it is definitively not Divide. Maybe here is something > > different or wrong with the microcode. > This divides a signed DOUBLE LENGTH number in the A and Q registers > by a signed memory operand. IIRC the A register gets the result and > the Q register the remainder. OK, I will verify this in the coming days. Now I know what to look form but according to my records the results of this command always have been junk. > >> 14 Shift > > In PART: Here exist many subgroups of commands including > > shift left/right. Also the Q as you call it can be transferred > > to Accu and vice versa. There als is a MTA (MoveToAccu as I call it) > > which is a two-word instruction (most others are one-word) and > > transfers the word following this command into Accu. About > > 16 bit patterns have (at least to me now) the same meaning in > > this segment. > Shifting by the entire word length does transfer Q to A or A to Q Right. But here again, the bit 11 is the sign bit and thus the shift does not affect the bit 11 of the destination. I.e. bit 0 of A is moved to bit 10 of Q in shifting right for example. > (but the data disappears from the source). A load immediate > instruction would have been very handy. Yes, the load immediate is really nice. A block move does not exist on PEC. Essentially the immediate "MTA - Move To Accu" is one of two "two-read-cycles" instructions. Up to now I did not fugire out, what the other instruction does with the data read. Do you remember any "two-read" instructions in the Elliotts? > orders were encoded in the 14 order on the 12 bit machines with only > 256 numbers available compared with 8k on the 18 bitters. Yes, this seems to be absolutely correct! > >> 15 Input/Output and special (like interrupt return) > >> 16 to 31, as above but indexed by B register. > > > > NOPE - The box is 12-bit and does not have got this block. > > EVERYTHING is done via the index register I as I called it. > > Do you mean you cannot turn the B-register modification off? Correct: Everything is modified by the index register. Exceptions are the jumps, MTA for example. > Does it get cleared automatically somehow? You are clever - that is exactly what appens: Every instruction which is affected by this register (ADD, SUB, LDA, STA, ...) clear the register. So you have to load it right before each instruction. A severe constraint in my opinion is, that the index register can only be loaded from words 0-127 in the lower 4k. So this might be a bottleneck in memory since the table jump (I called it IDXCALL since it used the index register to get ne new address from) requires memory for each routine called, too. > > perhaps studying the Elliot would help to solve the remaining > > problems??!?!?!! > I am willing to try. Great! T H A N K S a L O T! > By the way, there are two 't's in Elliott. Thanks - is stored into my brain now ;-) > >> bootstrap, in later versions, this was just copied into core when the > >> machine was initialised. > > Interesting. The Programmer Electronic Control starts execution > > at 0x0a0 after reset. > Could it be that there is a value of 0x0A0 at location 0? No, if the machine is held in reset state, the PC is forced to 0x0a0 since the reset line is connected to the Set/Clear pins of the flip-flops making the program counter. Immediately after reset is set high, the first word is read and executed from this address. > > But of course the application was different > > and the operation software was completely loaded via the big plug > > boefore operation. > I suspect the big plug is for the OMP (Operator's Monitor Panel), and Some kind of blinking-light console? Something like this exists for the Rolm 1666b, too. This would be cool to have! ;-) > yes the program would be loaded via this once, probably in the > factory or at a maintenance depot, and the machine would probably be > rebooted many times afterwards. If data gets corrupted, than the complete aircraft has to return to a maintenance depot for reprogramming the machine? So if there are 10 or 20 of these boxes in one aircraft, they need service quite often I think. Roger, how was your experience - was this reliable with the Elliotts or did you have to reporgram the pater tape loader quite often? In my case, the transputer setup generates some spikes doring it bootup. If PEC is already turned on, this corrupts the data in core memory. So I always do a memory-test on PEC after turn on (to adjust the core driver current) and than freshly program my test routines. > The 920 was unusual in that it booted into the highest level > interrupt, level 1, so no interrupts will be serviced until you go > down an interrupt level or two or three. So 15 7168 increases the interrupt level and after executing this once, the interrupt 1 can be serviced, right? What happens in the Elliott, if an interrupt occurs? Is there a jump to a certain address in core or is the new program counter itself read from core? I have to think how to figure this out for PEC.... Of course I have to apply signals to all possible interrupt sources, load a program trying the yet unknown instructions and watch wheter any irregularities or jumps occur. I will have to trap PEC if the idle-loop is left. This is a bigger project and I will need some weeks to check this. > The 15 order is coded thus: > > 15 0 to 2047 Input > 15 2048 Shift A register left 7 places and OR in a character from the > paper tape reader (via OMP) > 15 2052 (IIRC) Wait until character pressed on teletype and read into > A register (via OMP) > 15 4096 to 6143 Output > 15 6144 Output character to paper tape punch (via OMP) > 15 6148 Output character to teletype (via OMP) if I remember > correctly > 15 7168 Terminate current program level i.e. return from interrupt > 15 7169 Test if standardised IIRC, skip the next instruction if the > accumulator is zero or top two bits are different > 15 7170 Increment B and skip the next instruction if bottom 13 bits > are zero > 15 7171 Read the value of the control keys on the OMP > 15 7172 Move l.s. 17 bits of A to the m.s. 17 bits of Q. Bottom bit > of Q is zeroed > 15 7173 Move m.s. 17 bits of Q to l.s. 17 bits of A. Top bit of A is > zeroed > 15 7174 Move A to B > 15 7175 Move B to A > 15 7176 Set relative addressing mode > 15 7177 Set absolute addressing mode Thank you very much for this list. This gives me valuable hints and ideas what to try out next. BTW: Have there been timers on the Elliotts you know about? Since you are such an expert I am sure you have a nice collection of vintage hardware, right? Perhaps you even have got an Elliott up and running? Thanks again, best regards, Erik. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Mar 12 02:45:59 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 23:45:59 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <p06240828c21aa943e629@[192.168.1.199]> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> <45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> <200703120351.XAA19245@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <p06240828c21aa943e629@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <45F50537.5000204@msm.umr.edu> Zane H. Healy wrote: > . What does sftp offer that would benefit an anonymous FTP setup? > > Zane the big thing that you have a problem with with FTP is the passive vs. active issue. I don't think there is any advantage in sftp related to that, but there are some servers I have found that don't deal with anything but passive, and sometimes the standard tools I use on linux have to be specially set to deal with them. I prefer filezilla or winscp as my main gui's, which I apologize are both windows utilities. But they hopefully will be duplicated on linux and macos at some point. Jim From james at machineroom.info Sun Mar 11 16:38:38 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: Meiko pictures. In-Reply-To: <45F431A7.2090203@gifford.co.uk> References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> <45F3D464.1030608@machineroom.info> <45F431A7.2090203@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F476DE.6030900@machineroom.info> John Honniball wrote: > James wrote: >> Andrew Back wrote: >>> So I went into the erm, server room, and pulled apart the Meiko nodes >>> and took some pictures. >> A thing of beauty. >> I recall my University (Bristol Poly/UWE) had a Meiko. It must have >> been the larger model as it stood 6' tall and was about 3' wide in >> black. Looked like the monolith from 2001 :) > > I think I saw that in the skip (dumpster) when I was at > UWE (1998-2001). Still looked like a black monolith, > but seemed to have been emptied of boards. > :-( Need a beer. From james at machineroom.info Sun Mar 11 16:41:17 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:41:17 +0000 Subject: Meiko pictures. In-Reply-To: <20070311133230.L16620@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070310165704.L16620@plum.flirble.org> <45F3D52F.7070300@machineroom.info> <20070311133230.L16620@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45F4777D.2030606@machineroom.info> >> I wonder.... has anyone carried Inmos links over IP? When I get my 300 >> node monster running it would be "fun" to network these Transputer >> machines. > > I guess it depends how timing sensitive the links are - I have no idea. > Would be nice to be able to point your local farm at another and have it > boot from it and join in :o) > > 300 nodes you say... Is that a Whitecross box? I was at a seminar at HP > Labs recently where an ex-Whitecross (now Kognitio) exec did a talk. I > wish I'd asked him if they still get to pull out old transputer kit. > > Andrew > Yes the box is Whitecross, a WX9020. It was one of the largest installs they did and has 342 T425s on dedicated processing cards (6 per card with 16MB ECC RAM per processor and 19 cards per crate, 3 crates). There's about another 50 dotted around on disk controllers, system controllers, etc. Thinking about it the links are synchronous at 10 or 20MHz so I doubt anything other than a direct P2P link would work. Shame ;) I did visit the Kognitio office and picked up a couple of the specially configured Solaris workstations (they use fibre for the inter crate communication and to the workstation). I was also given lots of documentation which is a real help! They did inform me that the links are very prone to noise which is one of the reasons for fibre, and they can mux 6 links per fibre. When I took the system I didn't have space or transport to take the rather nice custom built racks so ended up taking the individual crates, power supplies and a mass of fibre. These are now mounted in a standard 19" rack and I'm currently sorting out some suitable cooling. I've had a full crate and system controller running with diagnostics running on the workstation. That can see all the transputers. Still a way to go till it's a usable system :) Cheers, James From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 12 02:20:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 03:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F50537.5000204@msm.umr.edu> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> <45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> <200703120351.XAA19245@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <p06240828c21aa943e629@[192.168.1.199]> <45F50537.5000204@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200703120722.DAA26300@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> What does sftp offer that would benefit an anonymous FTP setup? > the big thing that you have a problem with with FTP is the passive > vs. active issue. I don't think there is any advantage in sftp > related to that, There is, actually; sftp runs over only one connection. (Calling it sftp is actually misleading, since it makes it sound like a mutant FTP that is somehow secured. It's not. It's a remote filesystem access protocol run on top of an SSH-secured connection. Data and control are multiplexed over the same TCP-level connection.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Mar 12 02:42:49 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:42:49 +0000 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <m1HQZCB-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> <m1HQZCB-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703120042j27643b13k9fe42ae0ba5e7bbf@mail.gmail.com> On 12/03/07, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > > I am fairly sure I persuaded a beeb to do 110 once, for dial-up to a > > cetain university to play MUD.. I think it was as simple as changing a > > jumper over, but this was about 25 years ago and so i forget exactly > > which one.. It was certainly a non-permenant mod.. > > I wasn't aware of any such jumper... The baud rate generator in the Beeb > is inside the Serial ULA (the acutal serial chip is a 6850), and I didn't > think there was any way to get that to generate the appropratie output > frequency. > Having had a quick squint (well it is 7am) at the beeb schematics, I'm pretty sure it was changing S28/S29 - these alter the inputs to IC42, a 74LS164 4 bit counter, used as a divider on the clock input to the Serial ULA The only referance to these I can find online now is that you can alter the cassette from 1200 to 1300 baud using them, so that sounds like it's the right place. It was definitely a "change the jumper(s) and set to x baud rate and it'll actually do y". It may not have been the exact rate, but it was close enough that it was used on a dial up to a 110baud port with no problem. (The dial-up used totally dumb modem normally used for 300bps...) Rob From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Mar 12 02:48:29 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:48:29 +0000 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70703120042j27643b13k9fe42ae0ba5e7bbf@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> <m1HQZCB-000J0gC@p850ug1> <2f806cd70703120042j27643b13k9fe42ae0ba5e7bbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703120048t601e2407o28eadf2daf54a49e@mail.gmail.com> On 12/03/07, Rob <robert at irrelevant.com> wrote: IC42, > a 74LS164 4 bit counter, 74LS163.. told you it was 7am... :-( From erik at baigar.de Mon Mar 12 03:08:36 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:08:36 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <D63967D8-6635-4EF7-9D45-0787253D7AA5@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703120901230.19854-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Hi Roger, thank you very much for your effords! I checked the old thread on rec.aviation.military. On March 2005 Alan Dicey posted in a response to my question that the box might have been controlling displays called TV-Tab in the rear cockpit of the tornado. But Alan thought that the box is not a complete computer... Maybe I should forward him my report ;-) > I showed the pictures to someone who worked on Tornado at Marconi Hey, that is great - thank you for trying to get input on this small baby! > Avionics. He said the box is definitely not part of either the CSAS > (Command Stability Augmentation System) nor AFDS (AutoPilot & Flight > Director System). He thought it was physically much too big for the > HUD (Head Up Display). If the box would have been used in a ciritcal system I think it would never have shown up on eBay. I can not imagine that cirtical stuff is released to the public... Thanks Again, Erik. From erik at baigar.de Mon Mar 12 03:08:36 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:08:36 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <D63967D8-6635-4EF7-9D45-0787253D7AA5@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703120901230.19854-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Hi Roger, thank you very much for your effords! I checked the old thread on rec.aviation.military. On March 2005 Alan Dicey posted in a response to my question that the box might have been controlling displays called TV-Tab in the rear cockpit of the tornado. But Alan thought that the box is not a complete computer... Maybe I should forward him my report ;-) > I showed the pictures to someone who worked on Tornado at Marconi Hey, that is great - thank you for trying to get input on this small baby! > Avionics. He said the box is definitely not part of either the CSAS > (Command Stability Augmentation System) nor AFDS (AutoPilot & Flight > Director System). He thought it was physically much too big for the > HUD (Head Up Display). If the box would have been used in a ciritcal system I think it would never have shown up on eBay. I can not imagine that cirtical stuff is released to the public... Thanks Again, Erik. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Mar 12 03:30:01 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:30:01 +0000 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <01C76440.77922720@MSE_D03> References: <01C76440.77922720@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <45F50F89.6000608@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/03/2007 05:49, M H Stein wrote: > Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:17:07 +0000 > From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> > Subject: Re: baud modifier > >> I have a device called a MicroFazer that will do this. It was actually >> sold as a printer buffer, but it has serial as well as parallel input, >> and serial and parallel output, with several hundred K of buffer in >> between. > I have a few of these as well (in case anybody wants one), but mine do NOT > do 110 baud (150 minimum); are you sure yours does? Also AFAIK they > were all unidirectional (except for XON/XOFF of course). Ah, you could be right abuot it being one way apart from XON/XOFF. I'm fairly sure it does 110 baud, though, and there's's more than 64K in mine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Mar 12 03:43:18 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:43:18 +0000 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70703120042j27643b13k9fe42ae0ba5e7bbf@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> <m1HQZCB-000J0gC@p850ug1> <2f806cd70703120042j27643b13k9fe42ae0ba5e7bbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F512A6.8080804@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/03/2007 07:42, Rob wrote: > On 12/03/07, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >> > I am fairly sure I persuaded a beeb to do 110 once, for dial-up to a >> > cetain university to play MUD.. I think it was as simple as changing a >> > jumper over, but this was about 25 years ago and so i forget exactly >> > which one.. It was certainly a non-permenant mod.. >> >> I wasn't aware of any such jumper... The baud rate generator in the Beeb >> is inside the Serial ULA (the acutal serial chip is a 6850), and I didn't >> think there was any way to get that to generate the appropratie output >> frequency. > > Having had a quick squint (well it is 7am) at the beeb schematics, I'm > pretty sure it was changing S28/S29 - these alter the inputs to IC42, > a 74LS164 4 bit counter, used as a divider on the clock input to the > Serial ULA That's right, and it's a standard mod, described in Acorn's notes. Changing S28 increases the baud rate so you get 108 baud instead of 75. It affects the cassette baud rate as well, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 12 08:42:16 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:42:16 -0600 Subject: the Tandy 2000 and GIFs In-Reply-To: <200703120352.l2C3qQb3063129@keith.ezwind.net> References: <545707.59077.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <200703112331.l2BNVSLe054682@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070311182342.072c6da0@mail> <200703120352.l2C3qQb3063129@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070312074155.0719c118@mail> At 09:52 PM 3/11/2007, you wrote: >FWIW, it's a shadow of it's former self... but the Compuserve vintage computer forum has files for download with dates going back to 1982...... Yes, but there were many, many other forums. - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 12 10:03:55 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:03:55 -0500 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F56BDB.1000505@yahoo.co.uk> Rob wrote: >> [1] Maplin, the company, are still going, but their range of components >> is a joke. They now mostly sell electornic toys, Lo-Fi, etc. > > Tell me about it... I cleaned out two stores this weekend to get > enough 33uF 25V electrolytics for a repair I was doing... hardly > exotic, I thought, but the total quantity between two stores? Five! but but but... go to their website. Their logo states "Maplin, the electronics specialist" :-) I totally agree with you - if the stores exist to sell the same gimmicky junk that can be had cheaper elsewhere, then I'm not sure why they have the stores at all and can't put the huge rental / staffing costs to better use. H. Gee's in Cambridge is a real blessing in comparison - wide range of components and still staffed by people who know what they're talking about (and are helpful enough to direct you elsewhere if they know of somewhere locally that's cheaper or has exactly what you need - always the sign of a good shop!) Hmm, which makes me wonder if we shouldn't have a section on the classiccmp website for recommended places to get spares/components from? cheers Jules From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 11:41:38 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:41:38 +0000 Subject: Components & Tools (Was: Re: baud modifier) Message-ID: <11c909eb0703120941g6b5c5200t4899b53fc4f82018@mail.gmail.com> On 12/03/07, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Rob wrote: > >> [1] Maplin, the company, are still going, but their range of components > >> is a joke. They now mostly sell electornic toys, Lo-Fi, etc. > > I totally agree with you - if the stores exist to sell the same gimmicky > junk > that can be had cheaper elsewhere, then I'm not sure why they have the > stores > at all and can't put the huge rental / staffing costs to better use. These days, they seems to be dedicated to the (seemingly) infinite number of young men who want to put blue lights on and under their cars :) H. Gee's in Cambridge is a real blessing in comparison - wide range of > components and still staffed by people who know what they're talking about You lucky fellow, nothing like that in northwest UK that I know of About the best I seem to be able to do is CPC (ex Farnell), but as Tony commented the other day, the website is a disaster area for finding anything. I've had to resort to buying from Futurelec (Singapore?) for some ICs, mainly due to RoHS making some lines unavailable while the replacements haven't appeared yet. Hmm, which makes me wonder if we shouldn't have a section on the classiccmp > website for recommended places to get spares/components from? That's a cracking idea. Anyone know of good suppliers in the UK? RS seem to be useless these days too. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 12 12:46:08 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:46:08 -0700 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <45F56BDB.1000505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> <45F56BDB.1000505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F591E0.3020009@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Rob wrote: > >>> [1] Maplin, the company, are still going, but their range of components >>> is a joke. They now mostly sell electornic toys, Lo-Fi, etc. So who sells Hi-Fi that you can afford? Well the UK still for the moment makes the best speakers - Lowthers. >> Tell me about it... I cleaned out two stores this weekend to get >> enough 33uF 25V electrolytics for a repair I was doing... hardly >> exotic, I thought, but the total quantity between two stores? Five! The key word here is *Repair*. > but but but... go to their website. Their logo states "Maplin, the > electronics specialist" :-) We have the same kind of stores here, other than a few things like fuses I have have to mail order for components. > Hmm, which makes me wonder if we shouldn't have a section on the > classiccmp website for recommended places to get spares/components from? Also how many items are in stock would be useful too for spares. > cheers > > Jules > From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 12 03:05:31 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:05:31 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1173686731.4666.0.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-03-11 at 21:57 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > > Tom Peters said: > >I'd like to see the blinkenlights on the front panel. > > > >-T > > Videos in Apple Quicktime format are at: > > http://www.woffordwitch.com/videos.asp > > *** WARNING - I have not downsized these videos > *** THEY ARE HUGE - you'll be waiting a while if > *** you are on dial-up. I'll downsize them later and/or > *** put them in another format (wmv?). Please don't use WMV format. It would be nice if more than the tiny segment of the list using *exactly the same version* of Windows Media Player as you could watch them too. Gordon From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 12 12:47:50 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:47:50 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200703121347.51030.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 11 March 2007 22:57, Ashley Carder wrote: > > Tom Peters said: > >I'd like to see the blinkenlights on the front panel. > > > >-T > > Videos in Apple Quicktime format are at: > > http://www.woffordwitch.com/videos.asp > > *** WARNING - I have not downsized these videos > *** THEY ARE HUGE - you'll be waiting a while if > *** you are on dial-up. I'll downsize them later and/or > *** put them in another format (wmv?). FWIW, DivX/MPEG4 or MPEG2 are much better (portable!) formats than the garbage that is WMV. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 14:12:09 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:12:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Videos in Apple Quicktime format are at: >> >> http://www.woffordwitch.com/videos.asp >> >> *** WARNING - I have not downsized these videos >> *** THEY ARE HUGE - you'll be waiting a while if >> *** you are on dial-up. I'll downsize them later and/or >> *** put them in another format (wmv?). > > >FWIW, DivX/MPEG4 or MPEG2 are much better (portable!) formats than the >garbage that is WMV. > >Pat I'll do something better later today. I just dumped those out there as they were in my camera's native format. I should be able to get something good in just a meg or two. Ashley From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 14:20:08 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:20:08 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <014801c764db$72ebcd20$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Please not WMV. Please please please. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/40 videos > > >> Videos in Apple Quicktime format are at: > >> > >> http://www.woffordwitch.com/videos.asp > >> > >> *** WARNING - I have not downsized these videos > >> *** THEY ARE HUGE - you'll be waiting a while if > >> *** you are on dial-up. I'll downsize them later and/or > >> *** put them in another format (wmv?). > > > > > >FWIW, DivX/MPEG4 or MPEG2 are much better (portable!) > formats than the > >garbage that is WMV. > > > >Pat > > I'll do something better later today. I just dumped those > out there as they were in my camera's native format. I > should be able to get something good in just a meg or two. > > Ashley > From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 14:27:16 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:27:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <32388596.1173727637070.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > >Please not WMV. Please please please. > I won't do WMV!!! What do you prefer? Ashley From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 14:47:38 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:47:38 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <32388596.1173727637070.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <32388596.1173727637070.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <014901c764df$4a245c50$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> MPEG is good. I don't think anyone will have objections to that. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:27 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: PDP-11/40 videos > > > > >Please not WMV. Please please please. > > > > I won't do WMV!!! What do you prefer? > > Ashley > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Mar 12 15:03:20 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:03:20 +0000 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <200703121805.l2CI3jDf034412@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703121805.l2CI3jDf034412@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9600AD50-FAE0-44B7-9B31-AD14A8AC5434@microspot.co.uk> > >>> not know how long development of such an aircraft takes but >>> the first take-off was in 1974 I think, so this would match >>> the design of this box wuite well - what do you think? >> Aircraft development takes a long long time. To make it worthwhile >> the aircraft has a long service life. Whilst the computers are bullet >> proof in an office/home, the temperature extremes, vibration, high G >> forces etc in service means that many failures occur and PCBs could >> be replaced many times over the years, so do not pay too much notice >> of the dates on components of the boards currently installed. > OK, I understand this. I do not know much about these > issues, but on the internet often the COTS strategy > is mentioned and in using standard components, I think > moderen aircraft swap technology more often than was done > in the 60s and 70s, right? I am no longer in the Avionics field so I don't know anything about modern practice. > >> There were at least four 12 bit versions, and one 13 bit apparently. >> Then 12 bit models were the 902, 102C, ARCH 105 and Minim or 12/12. > Thank you - I will try to find information on the > web in the next days. Compared to the Elliott machines > the DECs are very common stuff ;-) I doubt you will find much apart from the names in timelines. Specialised machine will always be rarer than general purpose ones. The design considerations for a harsh environment plus the need to save weight means much more expense, so they are not affordable for normal use. Every extra Kg in the Avionics adds a lot to the overall takeoff weight. For a helicopter, I think the ratio was somewhere around six. Then there's the power, every extra watt needs bigger alternators/generators and a bigger engine to drive them, and more fuel to carry, which means more engine power and so on. > >>> Yes, that matches - the core memory module already has the >>> label GEC. So this is (as I suspected) older than the CPU and >>> taken maybe from a different design?! >> You have it the wrong way around. The GEC name replaced the Marconi >> name, which had earlier replaced Elliott. Core memory was very > Thank you for this hint. I checked wikipedia and obviously > GEC got involved very early and the name was changed to GEC > later (1984). Sorry for my misunderstanding, now I got it. > >> convenient for military applications and was in use long after it was >> replaced in commercial applications. Think of a missile or torpedo >> held in stock for many years, stick a power plug into it and program >> the target, pull out the plug and then launch it. Only then does the >> internal power supply come up, the processor boots up and does its >> thing. > The internet claimes sometimes, that core memory is less sensitive > to radiation, too. This might have been an advantage in certain > military applications (really bad applications, honestly speaking). DEAD right! > Data retenttion of the core memory should be quite good, > but since reading is always destructive, there is the > rist, that bad data gets written back. In the case of > Programmer Electronic Control, they did quite a lot > to adjust the core memory's dirver current automatically > according to a temerature measurement of the core. As > my experiments show, you have to reduce the current if > temperatuere goes up. This physically understandable > (1/T). My old mainframes also have a temperature sensor in the core store, and they are only allowed to be used in a narrow temperature band, about 10 to 30 degrees C. > >>>> bit 920s before moving on to the Zilog Z8001. >>> Hey, than you are a valuable expert on these - do you have >>> got any source of intormation about the 920s? >> Not directly but I may be able to help. > Hey, that is even better. I highly appreciate, that > you spend time in sharing your information! Thanks > a lot in advance! > >>> >>>> 9 Jump if negative >>> RIGHT - all three jumps are relative ones >> On the 18 bit machines these were relative to the start of the 8k >> memory module the instruction was in. An interesting modification. > In my case they are relative and you can jump > +/-127 words (crossing any border). Here again, the > box uses 1complement and thus jump 0x00 is the same > as jump 0x80: An infinite loop! If 0x00 is the same as 0x80, then it is not one's complement. Sounds like sign/absolute. In ones complement, the two representations of zero are all zeroes and all ones. On the 920, a jump to itself was referred to as a 'Dynamic Stop', and was the standard was to stop the computer as there is no stop instruction. I try to avoid doing it on my mainframes as continually accessing the same word in core might make it overheat. > >>>> 11 Store program counter (for function return) >>> SIMILAR - This stores PC and then does a >>> table jump >> On the 18 bit machines, it actually stored the program counter + 1 >> and the following instruction was either an 8 or a "/8", i.e. 24. > Hmm, I do not understand fully what you mean by "the following > instruction was either an 8 or a "/8", i.e. 24". In 920 assembler, instructions did not have mnemonics, you used their decimal operation code values. To indicate 'B Line modification' in the assembler you wrote a / before the operation code. The assembler simply added 16 to the opcode, so /8 = 24, but you don't have the B-Line bit on your machine - its always on. > > The Programmer Electronic Control (Let's call it PEC in the future) > stores PC+1 (as your 18bit) to the specified location into > core. The new address is taken from the position in memory > where the index register points to. So in my case this is > a perfect table jump. Ah, so you do this ? 0 word with address of routine 11 link word > >>>> 12 Multiply >>> RIGHT, unsigned multiplication >> This should multiply the signed accumulator and the signed memory >> operand giving a double length result in the A and Q registers. > Results are as you mention, but if either operand is > negative, the result contains wrong values. But maybe > I check whether this depends on the content of the > index register prior to the operation... > >>>> 13 Divide >>> HMMM, the command takes very long but the results are >>> very strange. I thought it might be some type of >>> random number generation by an irreducible polynomal, >>> but it is definitively not Divide. Maybe here is something >>> different or wrong with the microcode. >> This divides a signed DOUBLE LENGTH number in the A and Q registers >> by a signed memory operand. IIRC the A register gets the result and >> the Q register the remainder. > OK, I will verify this in the coming days. Now I > know what to look form but according to my records > the results of this command always have been junk. > >>>> 14 Shift >>> In PART: Here exist many subgroups of commands including >>> shift left/right. Also the Q as you call it can be transferred >>> to Accu and vice versa. There als is a MTA (MoveToAccu as I >>> call it) >>> which is a two-word instruction (most others are one-word) and >>> transfers the word following this command into Accu. About >>> 16 bit patterns have (at least to me now) the same meaning in >>> this segment. >> Shifting by the entire word length does transfer Q to A or A to Q > Right. But here again, the bit 11 is the sign bit and > thus the shift does not affect the bit 11 of the > destination. I.e. bit 0 of A is moved to bit 10 of Q > in shifting right for example. I see. The Q register was always a bit weird. > >> (but the data disappears from the source). A load immediate >> instruction would have been very handy. > Yes, the load immediate is really nice. A block > move does not exist on PEC. Essentially the immediate > "MTA - Move To Accu" is one of two "two-read-cycles" > instructions. Up to now I did not fugire out, what > the other instruction does with the data read. Do > you remember any "two-read" instructions in the Elliotts? Only the instruction I invented. The first word had the address of a link word (in page 0) and the whole second word was the address of where to jump to. So this was convenient for the compile to generate a call without lots of special literals. We reused /3 I think, anyway the original instruction was corrupt the Q Register with B-Line indexing, but B-Line indexing corrupted the Q register at the start of the instruction, so a totally useless opcode. > >> orders were encoded in the 14 order on the 12 bit machines with only >> 256 numbers available compared with 8k on the 18 bitters. > Yes, this seems to be absolutely correct! > >>>> 15 Input/Output and special (like interrupt return) >>>> 16 to 31, as above but indexed by B register. >>> >>> NOPE - The box is 12-bit and does not have got this block. >>> EVERYTHING is done via the index register I as I called it. >> >> Do you mean you cannot turn the B-register modification off? > Correct: Everything is modified by the index register. > Exceptions are the jumps, MTA for example. > >> Does it get cleared automatically somehow? > You are clever - that is exactly what appens: > Every instruction which is affected by this > register (ADD, SUB, LDA, STA, ...) clear > the register. So you have to load it right before > each instruction. A severe constraint in my > opinion is, that the index register can only > be loaded from words 0-127 in the lower 4k. So > this might be a bottleneck in memory since the > table jump (I called it IDXCALL since it used > the index register to get ne new address from) > requires memory for each routine called, too. > >>> perhaps studying the Elliot would help to solve the remaining >>> problems??!?!?!! >> I am willing to try. > Great! T H A N K S a L O T! > >> By the way, there are two 't's in Elliott. > Thanks - is stored into my brain now ;-) > > >>>> bootstrap, in later versions, this was just copied into core >>>> when the >>>> machine was initialised. >>> Interesting. The Programmer Electronic Control starts execution >>> at 0x0a0 after reset. >> Could it be that there is a value of 0x0A0 at location 0? > No, if the machine is held in reset state, > the PC is forced to 0x0a0 since the reset line > is connected to the Set/Clear pins of the flip-flops > making the program counter. Immediately after reset > is set high, the first word is read and executed > from this address. > >>> But of course the application was different >>> and the operation software was completely loaded via the big plug >>> boefore operation. >> I suspect the big plug is for the OMP (Operator's Monitor Panel), and > Some kind of blinking-light console? Something like > this exists for the Rolm 1666b, too. This would be > cool to have! ;-) Yes, but these were of course much rarer than the computers themselves. > >> yes the program would be loaded via this once, probably in the >> factory or at a maintenance depot, and the machine would probably be >> rebooted many times afterwards. > If data gets corrupted, than the complete aircraft has > to return to a maintenance depot for reprogramming > the machine? So if there are 10 or 20 of these boxes in > one aircraft, they need service quite often I think. > Roger, how was your experience - was this reliable with > the Elliotts or did you have to reporgram the pater tape > loader quite often? > > In my case, the transputer setup generates some spikes > doring it bootup. If PEC is already turned on, this > corrupts the data in core memory. So I always do a > memory-test on PEC after turn on (to adjust the core > driver current) and than freshly program my test > routines. > >> The 920 was unusual in that it booted into the highest level >> interrupt, level 1, so no interrupts will be serviced until you go >> down an interrupt level or two or three. > So 15 7168 increases the interrupt level and > after executing this once, the interrupt 1 can be > serviced, right? Thats it. > > What happens in the Elliott, if an interrupt occurs? > Is there a jump to a certain address in core or is the > new program counter itself read from core? For a level 1 interrupt when the processor is on level 2, it stores the SCR in location 2, and the B in location 3. Then it loads the SCR from location zero and the B from location 1. > > I have to think how to figure this out for PEC.... Of > course I have to apply signals to all possible interrupt > sources, load a program trying the yet unknown instructions > and watch wheter any irregularities or jumps occur. I will > have to trap PEC if the idle-loop is left. This is a bigger > project and I will need some weeks to check this. > >> The 15 order is coded thus: >> >> 15 0 to 2047 Input >> 15 2048 Shift A register left 7 places and OR in a character >> from the >> paper tape reader (via OMP) >> 15 2052 (IIRC) Wait until character pressed on teletype and >> read into >> A register (via OMP) >> 15 4096 to 6143 Output >> 15 6144 Output character to paper tape punch (via OMP) >> 15 6148 Output character to teletype (via OMP) if I remember >> correctly >> 15 7168 Terminate current program level i.e. return from >> interrupt >> 15 7169 Test if standardised IIRC, skip the next instruction >> if the >> accumulator is zero or top two bits are different >> 15 7170 Increment B and skip the next instruction if bottom >> 13 bits >> are zero >> 15 7171 Read the value of the control keys on the OMP >> 15 7172 Move l.s. 17 bits of A to the m.s. 17 bits of Q. >> Bottom bit >> of Q is zeroed >> 15 7173 Move m.s. 17 bits of Q to l.s. 17 bits of A. Top bit >> of A is >> zeroed >> 15 7174 Move A to B >> 15 7175 Move B to A >> 15 7176 Set relative addressing mode >> 15 7177 Set absolute addressing mode > > Thank you very much for this list. This gives me > valuable hints and ideas what to try out next. > > BTW: Have there been timers on the Elliotts you > know about? Yes bit not within the CPU box. > > Since you are such an expert I am sure you > have a nice collection of vintage hardware, > right? Perhaps you even have got an Elliott > up and running? No, when I started working for Elliotts, all computers were out of my reach, but then I was offered an old mainframe (which originally cost 247,000 pounds, for scrap value, 150 pounds). It was built in 1962. I now have two of them in a barn at home. LOTS of lights and switches, each has a card reader, card punch, line printer and one has a paper tape reader and punch. Oh they both have drum stores and ten track magnetic tape. Roger Holmes. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 12 15:21:06 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <014901c764df$4a245c50$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> from Julian Wolfe at "Mar 12, 7 02:47:38 pm" Message-ID: <200703122021.l2CKL69k013142@floodgap.com> > MPEG is good. I don't think anyone will have objections to that. MPEG seconded. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Miners Refuse To Work After Death --------------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 12 15:22:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:22:20 -0500 Subject: Xerox 850 / 860 hardware differences Message-ID: <45F5B67C.5030306@yahoo.co.uk> Out of interest, does anyone know how much hardware commonality there is between the Xerox 850 and 860? We've got an absolutely beautiful 860 at the museum, with all the trimmings documentation and software-wise. We've just been offered an unknown-working-status 850 main unit though, and I'm not sure what's best in terms of fate: a) Pass on it and offer it here in the hope that someone can use it [1], b) Pull boards, PSU, drives etc. as source of spares if they're transferrable to the 860, c) Just consign it to landfill [2]. [1] There's no keyboard, no display, and no printer. I'm not sure what chance someone would have of simulating those with modern hardware, even assuming that the main unit is working / can be made to work. [2] The drives are doubtless useful to *someone* for non-Xerox things I would have thought. It's in Welwyn, UK. Shouts of "I'm close to there and desperately need an 850 base unit to go with my 850 peripherals" will of course be gratefully received :-) I'd much rather a complete system be restored than a partial system be stripped for spares! [I don't actually know yet that the current owner's happily to release it to anyone other than the museum, though - but can find out if needed] cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 12 15:24:49 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <01C76440.77922720@MSE_D03> References: <01C76440.77922720@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20070312132040.W56339@shell.lmi.net> In addition to the speed, are the protocols the same? For example, if you were to just slow down a Bell 212 (1200 bps) modem to 300 bts per second while still using the same frequencies and encoding, that would NOT enable a Bell 103 to be able to communicate. It would ALSO be necessary to switch the encoding to a FSK using the Bell 103 frequencies. I could certainly feed 10 characters per second through a V.90. But that would NOT provide the CCITT V.18? protocol needed for most 110 baud devices. -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From mctylr at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 13:07:02 2007 From: mctylr at gmail.com (michael taylor) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:07:02 -0400 Subject: Components & Tools (Was: Re: baud modifier) In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0703120941g6b5c5200t4899b53fc4f82018@mail.gmail.com> References: <11c909eb0703120941g6b5c5200t4899b53fc4f82018@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25630a120703121107r30839a20w2cf0cd2920fbf984@mail.gmail.com> On 3/12/07, Pete Edwards <stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com> wrote: ... > You lucky fellow, nothing like that in northwest UK that I know of > About the best I seem to be able to do is CPC (ex Farnell), but as Tony > commented the other day, the website is a disaster area for finding Ian White, G3SEK - UK Component and Tool Suppliers <http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/in-prac/components.htm> From jrr at flippers.com Mon Mar 12 14:23:52 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:23:52 -0800 Subject: Old terminal and some AES stuff. In-Reply-To: <200703120722.DAA26300@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> <45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> <200703120351.XAA19245@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <p06240828c21aa943e629@[192.168.1.199]> <45F50537.5000204@msm.umr.edu> <200703120722.DAA26300@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <p0624083bc21b568f534f@[192.168.2.17]> I have two items here for free (you pick up) or the cost of shipping and handling/packing up. ADM-31 Terminal and User Reference Manual AES: Word Processing #103-2004-02 (2 floppies) and some other discs that I intend to wipe as they have "sermons &..." penciled on the covers (1983ish). BASE2, Inc Model 800 Printer Operators reference Manual (only) AES training for using the Word Processing program (looks like) - a bunch of single sided pages... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jrr at flippers.com Mon Mar 12 15:31:57 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:31:57 -0800 Subject: Old terminal and some AES stuff. Message-ID: <p06240842c21b692bafdf@[192.168.2.17]> I have two items here for free (you pick up) or the cost of shipping and handling/packing up. ADM-31 Terminal and User Reference Manual AES: Word Processing #103-2004-02 (2 floppies) and some other discs that I intend to wipe as they have "sermons &..." penciled on the covers (1983ish). BASE2, Inc Model 800 Printer Operators reference Manual (only) AES training for using the Word Processing program (looks like) - a bunch of single sided pages... John :-#)# PS - forgot to add signature with address - sigh! -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 12 15:49:10 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:49:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Xerox 850 / 860 hardware differences In-Reply-To: <45F5B67C.5030306@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 12, 2007 03:22:20 PM Message-ID: <200703122049.l2CKnBmb006476@onyx.spiritone.com> > We've got an absolutely beautiful 860 at the museum, with all the trimmings > documentation and software-wise. Having been forced to use a Xerox 860 in a past life to update a large book, I'd just like to say that "absolutely beautiful" is not a pair of words I would use to describe one. I much prefered the other option we had at that time, MUSE running on a Harris Minicomputer. Zane From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 16:01:04 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:01:04 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <14003856.1173733265076.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> MPEG is good. I don't think anyone will have objections to that. > >MPEG seconded. > I have loaded MPEG-4 videos to my site. I have also added a "Videos" link on the left-hand nav. The sound of the 11/40 fans running is pretty loud on the videos, but you can hear the hardcopy terminals as they are printing. You can see short videos (with sound) of the following: * 11/40 front panel lights blinking while running RSTS/E * SYSTAT on VT05 * SYSTAT on LA120 * SYSTAT on LA36 * SYSTAT on ASR33 * SYSTAT on VT52 I will do some better quality stuff later. These were done yesterday in a hurry while I had my digital camera in my hand. If anyone has anything they would like to see, I will try to handle your requests. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 12 16:04:52 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:04:52 +0000 Subject: Old terminal and some AES stuff. In-Reply-To: <p06240842c21b692bafdf@[192.168.2.17]> Message-ID: <C21B70F4.878B%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 12/3/07 20:31, "John Robertson" <jrr at flippers.com> wrote: > John :-#)# > > PS - forgot to add signature with address - sigh! Both there for me in the UK, John! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Mar 12 16:08:14 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:08:14 +0000 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <45F591E0.3020009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703110150010.22581@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <m1HQTiL-000J0gC@p850ug1> <2f806cd70703111508ybd2e913rcbd7887b9069492a@mail.gmail.com> <45F56BDB.1000505@yahoo.co.uk> <45F591E0.3020009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703121408r7096089exc4ecafa5bd9435e2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/03/07, woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Rob wrote: actually I think it might have been Tony who said: > > > >>> [1] Maplin, the company, are still going, but their range of components > >>> is a joke. They now mostly sell electornic toys, Lo-Fi, etc. > > So who sells Hi-Fi that you can afford? > Well the UK still for the moment makes the best speakers - Lowthers. > That I don't know 'owt about... I think it says somthing of their current target audience type that their newest stores are all in big edge-of-town retail parks.. > >> Tell me about it... I cleaned out two stores this weekend to get > >> enough 33uF 25V electrolytics for a repair I was doing... hardly > >> exotic, I thought, but the total quantity between two stores? Five! > > The key word here is *Repair*. > Quite.. this was a rescued linksys wireless router.. they are prone to failing with to bad caps in the switch circuits. So 55p ($1) of components later and it's working again.. (mostly.. the adsl side is still playing up.) I'm not up to Tony's level of getting dirty with circuitry, but when it's that simple a fix, I'll do it. I think though even I am in a minority here.. most people would just chuck it and buy a new one.. Rob From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 12 16:08:38 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:08:38 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk Viewer In-Reply-To: <200703092233.l29MXfcn029797@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703092233.l29MXfcn029797@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703121708.38528.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 09 March 2007 17:33, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Necessity has been inventing again .... > > FYI, I have just added a new small utility to the ImageDisk > package - this is called "ImageDisk Viewer" (IMDV). It is > essentially a simple HEX editor that lets you easily poke > through .IMD images with HEX displays accompanied by either > ASCII or EBCDIC translations. Thanks a bunch Dave, this sounds wonderful! Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 16:09:30 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:09:30 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos References: <14003856.1173733265076.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006001c764ea$b9c97120$6700a8c0@BILLING> Ashley wrote... > I have loaded MPEG-4 videos to my site. I have also added a "Videos" > link on the left-hand nav. So, since MP4 isn't a valid standard file association, any chance you could make those files .mpg or .mpeg ? Jay From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 12 16:11:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:11:04 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <200703122021.l2CKL69k013142@floodgap.com> References: <200703122021.l2CKL69k013142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <B094DDFE-A435-44EF-8D4D-3C5C158ED0D2@neurotica.com> On Mar 12, 2007, at 4:21 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> MPEG is good. I don't think anyone will have objections to that. > > MPEG seconded. Thirded. Portable, standardized formats good. Proprietary formats for legacy Microsoft operating systems bad. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 12 16:17:43 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:17:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6F9D3DC1-1648-4D6B-BE3F-37C27E9AAEB6@neurotica.com> On Mar 11, 2007, at 10:57 PM, Ashley Carder wrote: >> Tom Peters said: >> I'd like to see the blinkenlights on the front panel. > > Videos in Apple Quicktime format are at: > > http://www.woffordwitch.com/videos.asp That's some excellent geek porn you've got there! Your PDP-11/40 is very well assembled and presented. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 12 16:29:51 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:29:51 -0500 Subject: Xerox 850 / 860 hardware differences In-Reply-To: <200703122049.l2CKnBmb006476@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703122049.l2CKnBmb006476@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45F5C64F.50002@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> We've got an absolutely beautiful 860 at the museum, with all the trimmings >> documentation and software-wise. > > Having been forced to use a Xerox 860 in a past life to update a large book, > I'd just like to say that "absolutely beautiful" is not a pair of words I > would use to describe one. :-) You know, we get a few comparisons on here between general-purpose computers (large and small) as to what they were like to actually use. Ditto with terminals. I'm not sure if I've ever seen the equivalent for more "specialised" hardware such as word-processor boxes, though. Anyway, the 860 is nice in terms of build, looks, condition and ephemera - I couldn't comment on what it was like from the UI point of view! :) I only used this particular one for about five minutes; the UI seemed a bit clunky but then that's hardly surprising or any different to most software of that timeframe (i.e. little consistency across products and you had to actually read the manual before seriously using) I believe this particular machine was still in active use up to the mid-'90s; the owner used it for some pretty heavyweight stuff before it finally got replaced by a PC. (Adrian may be able to contribute more it he's reading this; he actually collected the machine from the owner and I transported it to the museum from Adrian's at a later date) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 12 16:33:13 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:33:13 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <B094DDFE-A435-44EF-8D4D-3C5C158ED0D2@neurotica.com> References: <200703122021.l2CKL69k013142@floodgap.com> <B094DDFE-A435-44EF-8D4D-3C5C158ED0D2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F5C719.1050508@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: >> MPEG seconded. > > Thirded. Portable, standardized formats good. Proprietary formats > for legacy Microsoft operating systems bad. ditto bad for anything with built-in DRM (whether in use in this particular case or not) as those particular formats will probably get forgotten within a short space of time, and be totally useless as archive material x years down the line. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 12 16:41:19 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:41:19 -0500 Subject: Future Domain docs? Message-ID: <45F5C8FF.8020600@mdrconsult.com> Does anyone have documentation for Future Domain TMC-870 and TMC-885 ISA SCSI adapters? They both have 2 floppy headers, which I find extremely interesting. Unfortunately, they both have a lot of jumpers/DIP switches, which I'd like to ID. Adaptec has drivers and tools, but no info. Doc From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 16:48:26 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:48:26 -0500 Subject: Future Domain docs? In-Reply-To: <45F5C8FF.8020600@mdrconsult.com> References: <45F5C8FF.8020600@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <016201c764f0$2a63ca20$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Look for "total hardware" + th99 On Google You should come up with a site that has a gazillion cards' jumper settings. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 4:41 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Future Domain docs? > > Does anyone have documentation for Future Domain TMC-870 > and TMC-885 ISA SCSI adapters? They both have 2 floppy > headers, which I find extremely interesting. Unfortunately, > they both have a lot of jumpers/DIP switches, which I'd like to ID. > > Adaptec has drivers and tools, but no info. > > Doc > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 12 16:58:15 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:58:15 +0000 Subject: Xerox 850 / 860 hardware differences In-Reply-To: <45F5C64F.50002@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <C21B7D77.879E%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 12/3/07 21:29, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > I believe this particular machine was still in active use up to the mid-'90s; > the owner used it for some pretty heavyweight stuff before it finally got > replaced by a PC. (Adrian may be able to contribute more it he's reading this; > he actually collected the machine from the owner and I transported it to the > museum from Adrian's at a later date) Actually it was the owner's wife who also worked for Xerox who used it the most. Since I'm a keyboard junkie I had no problem navigating my way round its UI and actually found it very nice to use; TAB, LINE and PAGE did what you expected them to do, likewise SHIFT-TAB, SHIFT-LINE and SHIFT-PAGE. Hmm, where's that behaviour mirrored these days? :) Drives self-refreshed when you put a new disk in, there was a centrally-maintained document list, diagnostics built-in AND a portrait black-on-white screen with the CAT cursor controlling technology. I liked the 860, even coming from a modern perspective. Most importantly for an older machine, it smelt *nice* when it was hot. Maybe I'm weird, but there's a smell associated with old hardware that's just....nice. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 12 17:29:23 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:29:23 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <20070312222923.6BB62BA433D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to > have disappeared, that the content on ftp sites isn't indexed by > google very well and that large software archives seem to be > disappearing? > > Try searching for old copies of fractint and they are hard to find, > even though they were everywhere as recently as 10 years ago. > > What's happened to FTP? > > Should we be working to archive large FTP software repositories? The most interesting FTP archives disappeared in the early 90's IMHO. Mostly migrated succesfully to other platforms, and then migrated again, and then migrated again. Think of the way classic micro software was on SIMTEL, then oak.oakland.edu, then wherever it is today. Even in its heyday (early 90's?) archie was completely unscalable and really almost useless, even if you knew the filenames. If you're worried about archiving, I'd focus less on the protocol and more on what you're interested in saving. All digital archives will have to be migrated between not only physical media but also between access mechanisms. 20 years from now we'll all be sitting around on Vulcan-Mind-Meld-AOL talking about the Internet and HTTP the same way we talk about 20mA current loop today :-). Tim. From andy at smokebelch.org Mon Mar 12 17:31:31 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:31:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Odeur electrique (was Re: Xerox 850 / 860 hardware differences) In-Reply-To: <C21B7D77.879E%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C21B7D77.879E%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070312222418.J98929@plum.flirble.org> On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, Adrian Graham wrote: > I liked the 860, even coming from a modern perspective. Most importantly for > an older machine, it smelt *nice* when it was hot. Maybe I'm weird, but > there's a smell associated with old hardware that's just....nice. Gently heated dust of ages... :o) It can be a most beautiful scent and note how there are subtle variations say between something filled with TTL and older say radio equipment with valves (in particular transmitters - more heat?). There was a shop back home in Yorkshire with an amazing electronics smell due to all the mil surplus scopes and spectrum analysers etc that would be powered up. Mmmmm. Andrew From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 12 18:07:57 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odeur electrique (was Re: Xerox 850 / 860 hardware differences) In-Reply-To: <20070312222418.J98929@plum.flirble.org> from Andrew Back at "Mar 12, 7 10:31:31 pm" Message-ID: <200703122307.l2CN7vN4014446@floodgap.com> > Gently heated dust of ages... :o) It can be a most beautiful scent and > note how there are subtle variations say between something filled with TTL > and older say radio equipment with valves (in particular transmitters - > more heat?). There was a shop back home in Yorkshire with an amazing > electronics smell due to all the mil surplus scopes and spectrum analysers > etc that would be powered up. Mmmmm. People always tell me my car smells of scorched electronics. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Anything that can be put into a nutshell belongs there. -- F. G. Brauer ---- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 12 14:56:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:56:44 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <45F54E0C.12561.47F039D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Mar 2007 at 0:00, Ashley Carder wrote: > I'll do something better later today. I just dumped those > out there as they were in my camera's native format. I should be > able to get something good in just a meg or two. MPEG would be fine by me. But please not QT--the *&(%! player plays hob with my file associations, even after I tell it not to. Does anyone make a standalone QT player (i.e. not a browser plugin?). Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 12 18:06:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:06:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Components & Tools (Was: Re: baud modifier) In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0703120941g6b5c5200t4899b53fc4f82018@mail.gmail.com> from "Pete Edwards" at Mar 12, 7 04:41:38 pm Message-ID: <m1HQtaw-000J16C@p850ug1> > H. Gee's in Cambridge is a real blessing in comparison - wide range of > > components and still staffed by people who know what they're talking about Having spent a few years studying and then working in Cambridge, I can confirm hhat H Gee was a place I spent far too much money :-) There's nothing much in London either. There's Cricklewood Electronics who have an amazing range of old ICs in stock (heck, they had a TTL chip I could find listed _nowehre_ else, not even on the web). > You lucky fellow, nothing like that in northwest UK that I know of > About the best I seem to be able to do is CPC (ex Farnell), but as Tony > commented the other day, the website is a disaster area for finding I'm lucky. I have a friend who runs a small electornics company and he gives me old RS and Farnell catalogues from time to time. I can find what I need there, type the order codes in on the website to se eif they're still available (of if the RoSH directive has caused them to be replaced), and if not to see what alternatives there are. > That's a cracking idea. Anyone know of good suppliers in the UK? RS seem to > be useless these days too. RS and Farnell are both fine once you've found what you want. The have a reasonable range, and are reliable. Mind you, there are some odd things that I can't find a single UK supplier for (top of the list at the moment is a 36 pin microribbon socket, cable mounting -- think of a socket that mates iwth a Centronics plug and which goes on a cable, not a chassis). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 12 17:39:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:39:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <049201c76450$9688d6a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> from "Vincent Slyngstad" at Mar 11, 7 07:46:07 pm Message-ID: <m1HQtAp-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > If the use of the links is the obvious one (that is, to select outputs of > > the '4040 and feed it into some more circuitry), you could make an > > external PCB with an osiccilator and divider chip on it and connect the > > output to the appropriate pin on the jumper block. > > Yes, that would work. One whole side of the 4x2 header used to jumper > baud rates is directly connected to the UART, so it just needs a CMOS > clock of the right frequency applied there, and the shorting block > removed altogether. I'm assuming the other row of that 4*2 block goes to outputs on the HC4040. I have 2 more suggestions, neither of which makes a permanent modification to the board. The first is to make a little PCB containing a freqeuncy divider that will, say, divide down the 38400 baud clock to 110 buud. The input and output go to a 2 pin socket that plugs onto the 4*2 header in the 38400 baud position, you get power and ground from <wherever>. Either plug that socket in to get 110 board, or a jumper link to get one of the original 4 baud rates. The seconmd is to remove that HC440 chip and replace it by a 16 pin (turned pin) DIL socket. You can then plug an HC44040 in if you want to go back to the original design. But you could also make a module that plugs in there (it could easily be made on stripboard with pin headers to fit into the HC4040 socket, for example) containing an osvillator (if the one on the original PCB is not a suitable frequncy) and divider chips to give whatever 4 baud rates you want, and feed them to the appropriate pins on the HC4040 socket -- the onse that are wired to that 4*2 header. Then use the jumper link as originally intended. Tese avoid the use of a microcontroller (I feel it's inelegant to link a PDP8/e clone to a mechanical TTY using a microcontroller iwth more computing power than either device!), they also avoid any permanent mods to the board. And you don't beve to worry about sorting out hardware flow control. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 12 18:09:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:09:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <45F591E0.3020009@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 12, 7 10:46:08 am Message-ID: <m1HQtdw-000J1EC@p850ug1> > > >> Tell me about it... I cleaned out two stores this weekend to get > >> enough 33uF 25V electrolytics for a repair I was doing... hardly > >> exotic, I thought, but the total quantity between two stores? Five! > > The key word here is *Repair*. Why? a 33uF capacitor is not a custom or even specialised part. I don't see why it makes any difference whether you need one to repair something or for a new design. > > Hmm, which makes me wonder if we shouldn't have a section on the > > classiccmp website for recommended places to get spares/components from? > > Also how many items are in stock would be useful too for spares. Very few :-( -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 12 18:20:45 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:20:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F54E0C.12561.47F039D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <45F54E0C.12561.47F039D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45F5E04D.6010005@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Mar 2007 at 0:00, Ashley Carder wrote: > >> I'll do something better later today. I just dumped those >> out there as they were in my camera's native format. I should be >> able to get something good in just a meg or two. > > MPEG would be fine by me. But please not QT--the *&(%! player plays > hob with my file associations, even after I tell it not to. Does > anyone make a standalone QT player (i.e. not a browser plugin?). yes, Apple does. Doc From vrs at msn.com Mon Mar 12 18:44:52 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:44:52 -0700 Subject: baud modifier References: <m1HQtAp-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <050c01c76500$6e72c850$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >> Yes, that would work. One whole side of the 4x2 header used to jumper >> baud rates is directly connected to the UART, so it just needs a CMOS >> clock of the right frequency applied there, and the shorting block >> removed altogether. > > I'm assuming the other row of that 4*2 block goes to outputs on the > HC4040. Correct. Vince From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Mar 12 19:42:32 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:42:32 -0400 Subject: Netframe collectors? In-Reply-To: <050c01c76500$6e72c850$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <m1HQtAp-000J0gC@p850ug1> <050c01c76500$6e72c850$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <45F5F378.8030101@atarimuseum.com> Does anyone here collect Netframes? Not the later Micron crap, I'm talking about the early Netframes like the little mushroom unit and the 3' monolith units that ran Novell and you connected to admin it via a Novell SPX client. Also looking for anyone who collects Tricord ES7000 and ES8000 servers. Curt From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 19:53:41 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:53:41 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <18817072.1173747221568.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> I have loaded MPEG-4 videos to my site. I have also added a "Videos" >> link on the left-hand nav. >So, since MP4 isn't a valid standard file association, any chance you could >make those files .mpg or .mpeg ? > >Jay Jay, I've added .mpg versions. They are quite a bit larger than the mp4 files. Ashley From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Mar 12 19:42:22 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:42:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <006001c764ea$b9c97120$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <14003856.1173733265076.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070312194135.0c279948@localhost> Can't *.MP4 be dropped into Quicktime for playback? Yes, it's not always associated to QT, but I think it worked on everything I tried. At 04:09 PM 3/12/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Ashley wrote... >>I have loaded MPEG-4 videos to my site. I have also added a "Videos" >>link on the left-hand nav. >So, since MP4 isn't a valid standard file association, any chance you >could make those files .mpg or .mpeg ? > >Jay > ----- 784. [Kindness] Kind words do not cost much. Yet they accomplish much. --Blaise Pascal --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From fsmith at ladylinux.com Mon Mar 12 20:07:35 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:07:35 -0400 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation "Mostly Dec Stuff" Message-ID: <200703122107.36044.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Hello, I been lurking here for a while and figure I come out of my shell to say hi and say how much I love reading most all the posts here. Now as to my question/questions and or dilemma. I have a bunch of old media. RK05's , RK06's, RL02's, RL01's , 8 Inch Floppies, RX50 Floppies , 9 track tapes among other things. Now before I run off and do something real stupid (Like damage the media by not properly handling it when archiving off) I figured I ask some advice. I know all about Bitsavers "Al Kassow I am so sorry but I bid up against you a few times and now that I have gotten to know you by lurking here It won't happen again." Bitsavers is a awesome resource and yours and others efforts there are VERY much appreciated and admired from my lil corner of the world. I have some sentimental attachment to some of this media as in its from my "PDP" days of the late 70's and 80's. But most of this stuff I just rescued. Lots of it has actual Dec Labels indicating multiple versions of RT11, RSX11, Older Vms etc. To get this stuff out there for all of you. What should I do ?? Put up a list with my best guess of the contents and see if anyone will help me and all of you out by getting the bits off the platters/media for people for years and years to enjoy ?? Or is this stuff so garden variety that I should just hook up my 11/34 , 11/73 and Microvax and get busy pulling off the bits and bytes before they become star dust or whatever old magnetic bits and bytes go to when they vanish from the media. ?? I don't have everything in place to read off all this stuff yet. I am having a dickens of a time getting someone to send me a BA23 I won on E-Pay so I can put together franken pdp (11/73 from many parts :-)) And I certainly don't have a RK06 laying around and or controller for example. All I ask is that anyone taking any of this media understand that some of it I want back after analysis and in every case if anything valuable turns up that it be posted publically. Sorry for the long winded post. Had a lot to say I been holding back now for months. I won't even touch on my piles of documentation that I need to start scanning in this post. Perhaps in the future :-) -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 20:20:25 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:20:25 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <9674596.1173748825641.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Tom Peters said: >Can't *.MP4 be dropped into Quicktime for playback? Yes, it's not always >associated to QT, but I think it worked on everything I tried. .MP4 files play on my QuickTime player. They also were the smallest files of any format I've tried so far, except maybe the 5:36 wmv file that I just added from our Wofford Witch reunion back in 2005 when I got many of the old college crew and our professor together for a cookout and to play with the PDP-11/40 and talk about the "old days" 30 years ago. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 20:38:56 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:38:56 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos References: <18817072.1173747221568.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006e01c76510$5de4b420$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ashley wrote... > Jay, I've added .mpg versions. They are quite a bit larger than the mp4 > files. I'm confused. I wasn't asking you to change the format. Only the file name - which certainly wouldn't have changed the file size! I am totally inept and blissfully unaware of anything graphics related. However, I was under the impression that if the file was named .mpg (or .mpeg) that it could be mp2, mp3, mp4, whatever, and the decoder would figure it out based on stuff internal to the file. I thought most folks I talked to named all their mpeg files .mpg or .mpeg, that way they work in any player (that supports the format). Naming them .mp4 is fine for keeping straight to yourself what format the file is, but they aren't normally distributed that way I didn't think. Again, I know NOTHING about graphics stuff like this. The above is my nieve assumptions so I could be completely offbase :) So I would have thought you would just rename the .mp4 files to .mpeg or .mpg. Don't keep the .mp4 named ones around. But someone would have to confirm the above is correct :) Jay From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Mar 12 10:45:48 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:45:48 -0700 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller In-Reply-To: <45D9BCC7.5000807@garlic.com> References: <45D90D5D.8080607@bitsavers.org> <45D9BCC7.5000807@garlic.com> Message-ID: <45F575AC.1080308@garlic.com> jd wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> What I have are the docs for the MSC-9305 ST506-GPIB interface >> which used the Xebec module. At one point it looked like the >> commands were compatible. > That board is fairly close to what i have. My board is bigger and uses > dual row headers for the drive connections. it has no edge connectors at > all. The board was used in the HP 9133 and 9135 disk units, for the HP9000 and HP250 systems, it seems. HP's number for this OEM board--by MSC/Xebec is 88134-69910, 09135-69515, and/or 09135-69501. I have no idea which number belongs to mine. The boards have the big black brick on them with the part or model number of "9056", used before the switch to the WD disk controller IC. A MSC disk unit was sold on Ebay recently, which contained a board that is at least physically identical. -- jd "About the time we think we can make ends meet, somebody moves the ends." -- Herbert Hoover From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 20:52:29 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:52:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <25909475.1173750749207.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >I'm confused. I wasn't asking you to change the format. Only the file name - >which certainly wouldn't have changed the file size! I am totally inept and >blissfully unaware of anything graphics related. However, I was under the >impression that if the file was named .mpg (or .mpeg) that it could be mp2, >mp3, mp4, whatever, and the decoder would figure it out based on stuff >internal to the file. > >I thought most folks I talked to named all their mpeg files .mpg or .mpeg, >that way they work in any player (that supports the format). Naming them >.mp4 is fine for keeping straight to yourself what format the file is, but >they aren't normally distributed that way I didn't think. > >Again, I know NOTHING about graphics stuff like this. The above is my nieve >assumptions so I could be completely offbase :) > >So I would have thought you would just rename the .mp4 files to .mpeg or >.mpg. Don't keep the .mp4 named ones around. > >But someone would have to confirm the above is correct :) > >Jay > I tried just plain old renaming, and the media player did not like it. After that, I used a video converter program to convert from mp4 to mpg. They apparently are different formats. I am not an expert on this either, but I have done a miniscule amount of dabbling. Ashley From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 21:06:17 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:06:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos References: <25909475.1173750749207.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000801c76514$2ff0a5c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ashley wrote.... > After that, I used a video converter program to convert from mp4 to mpg. > They apparently are different formats. The mpg extension doesn't (I don't THINK) designate mpg1, mpg2, mpg3, or mpg4. It just designates any of the above (much like a .wav file can have several different bitrates used for recording but they are all usually named .wav). I think files you download with the mpg or mpeg extension can be any of the above formats. Perhaps your software uses that to designate which format, but I think when people distribute them they rename them to the generic "mpg". > I am not an expert on this either, > but I have done a miniscule amount of dabbling. I know less than nothing about all this. I consider anything related to graphics total black magic and my assertions above are quite possibly completely incorrect :) Anyways, I guess I'm going off topic with a discussion of modern video formats... sorry! Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 21:12:41 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:12:41 -0500 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation "Mostly DecStuff" References: <200703122107.36044.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <000f01c76515$14ffb750$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Francesca wrote... > I been lurking here for a while and figure I come out of my shell to say > hi and > say how much I love reading most all the posts here. Glad to see you come out of the lurk ;) > I have a bunch of old media. RK05's , RK06's, RL02's, RL01's , 8 Inch > Floppies, > RX50 Floppies , 9 track tapes among other things. ...snip... > To get this stuff out there for all of you. What should I do ?? Put up a > list > with my best guess of the contents and see if anyone will help me and all > of you > out by getting the bits off the platters/media for people for years and > years to > enjoy ?? If you have RK05/6 & RLxx & RXxx drives that you completely trust as being good working drives, load up vtserver and make images of the packs over a serial port to your PC. Then you can put the images up online (or I can put the images up on classiccmp.org under /PDP-11). However, if your hard drives haven't been powered up in ages, you'd (and we'd) probably be better served by you sending the disk packs to someone who has a known well working recently used drives to load up vtserver and image them. I'd hate to have the precious bits lost forever cause it got loaded into a questionable drive that promptly headcrashed. I'd be happy to do the RL01, RL02, RX01, and RX02 media for you. My RK05 isn't working yet, don't have an RK06, and haven't tested my TU81+ yet. Just my own thoughts. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 21:18:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:18:06 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> <45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> <200703120351.XAA19245@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><p06240828c21aa943e629@[192.168.1.199]><45F50537.5000204@msm.umr.edu> <200703120722.DAA26300@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <001801c76515$d64456f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote.... > What does sftp offer that would benefit an anonymous FTP setup? > the big thing that you have a problem with with FTP is the passive > vs. active issue. I don't think there is any advantage in sftp > related to that, There's the active vs. passive issue which Sftp gets around quite handily. But there's also the fact that ftp passwords are transmitted cleartext. You might counter with "oh, but this is anonymous only so passwords dont matter". Well, many ftp servers that offer anonymous access ALSO have password authenticated users. I'd rather not put those users with higher privs at risk because of the public users. Just keep them all encrypted. I strongly prefer sftp over ftp... with one exception. sftp transfers are slower than ftp transfers. I've never researched why, but would assume its the crypto. Also, the whole argument depends on the sensitivity of the data being transmitted. Just from kneejerk reaction I always set up sftp instead of ftp. But there are exceptions.... Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 21:23:27 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:23:27 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]> <45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> <200703120351.XAA19245@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><p06240828c21aa943e629@[192.168.1.199]> <45F50537.5000204@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <002101c76516$95fd2670$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > I prefer filezilla or winscp as my main gui's, which I apologize are > both windows utilities. But they hopefully will be duplicated on > linux and macos at some point. I have always been a huge proponent of Van Dyke's SecureCRT (telnet & ssh), and in relation to this thread their companion product SecureFX (ftp & sftp). For a commercial package, these are by far the best IMHO and I use both very extensively every single day. To bring in another thread, it's one of the few that I've seen get all the various terminal emulations 99.9%. But SecureFX is bettern than winscp I think. But for a non-commercial package... filezilla rocks! I wasn't aware of it till fairly recently. It's quite nice. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 21:26:37 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:26:37 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com><p0624081bc2192876e19c@[192.168.1.199]><45F4729D.6070805@mdrconsult.com> <200703120351.XAA19245@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <003201c76517$074b3150$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> der Mouse wrote... > I run an anonymous FTP server and > that I'm reasonably confident is locked down fairly tight, Aren't those two statements diametrically opposed? ;) Jay From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 12 21:26:37 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:26:37 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <006001c764ea$b9c97120$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <14003856.1173733265076.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <006001c764ea$b9c97120$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45F60BDD.9040307@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Ashley wrote... > >> I have loaded MPEG-4 videos to my site. I have also added a "Videos" >> link on the left-hand nav. > > So, since MP4 isn't a valid standard file association, any chance you > could make those files .mpg or .mpeg ? Um... Yes, it is. VLC or Quicktime can play them, both are cross-platform. Renaming them to .MPG will probably load the wrong player as it will assume MPEG-1 instead of ISO MPEG-4. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 12 21:28:19 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:28:19 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <006e01c76510$5de4b420$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <18817072.1173747221568.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <006e01c76510$5de4b420$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45F60C43.9090106@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > So I would have thought you would just rename the .mp4 files to .mpeg or > .mpg. Don't keep the .mp4 named ones around. Nope. .mp4 files cannot be played by older players, hence the need to keep them named that way. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 21:33:25 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:33:25 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> <200703120009.l2C093BU009042@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <003701c76517$fa789c50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Dave wrote... > Jay, would you consider enabling anonymous FTP access to bitsavers.org? Uggg... I'd really rather not... for a few internal reasons mostly having to do with our logging infrastructure. In the final analysis it's Al's call though, not mine. What I personally would like to set up is something so that any http request is automatically directed from my server to each of the mirrors, round robin. Thus evenly distributing the load on a file by file basis. I had an apache module that would do exactly this very nicely, but I couldn't get it to compile for some reason and backburnered it. Just doing round robin DNS is NOT what I was looking for. In addition, and totally separately, I want to set up a bittorrent for it as well. Time permitting.....I will get to it :) Those are my ideas in any case, and I would run them by Al before implementing them of course. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 21:38:19 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:38:19 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <45F3AAB3.6080409@bitsavers.org> <45F41703.4050903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004c01c76518$a991beb0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jules wrote.... > It's why I've mentioned a few times that I think some sort of mechanism to > share "who has what" for the vintage community - tailored for our specific > needs - would be nice. That way someone searching for content only needs > to find a site participating in the scheme, and then it can use *its* > search mechanism to find information. I was honestly thinking LDAP. Something like this is being looked in to :) Jay From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 12 21:41:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:41:30 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F5E04D.6010005@mdrconsult.com> References: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <45F54E0C.12561.47F039D1@cclist.sydex.com>, <45F5E04D.6010005@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45F5ACEA.31492.4962CB40@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Mar 2007 at 18:20, Doc Shipley wrote: > yes, Apple does. Where do I find it? To be clear, I want a standalone QT player with no preset file associations that I can invoke from a command line-- just a simple utility to play a file. No installation, or registry modification. A *nix version would be even better. I had not realized that such an animal existed, and I don't seem to see it on Apple's website. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 21:42:57 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:42:57 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! References: <1024083.13578967.297713191.21.22@ientrynetwork.net><5dc6fd9e0703101813h385ef12amf7ee3c6b70e83083@mail.gmail.com> <45F3E794.1090300@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <005101c76519$4f1c9710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Gordon wrote... > Well, it appears to be some kind of credit card terminal. Not really the > right kind of terminal at all. > > It's hard enough to keep spam off mailing lists like this without > supposedly "trusted" users forwarding it in. Yup, the last thing we need are ads for credit card terminals tossed in here. My apologies Gordon (and list), I didn't catch it :\ Jay From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 12 21:55:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:55:46 -0800 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation "Mostly DecStuff" In-Reply-To: <200703122107.36044.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <BAY138-F2465BDE3BC7B97A8F71E1EA37C0@phx.gbl> Hi Fancesca Although, I'm not the one to help you read your disk, there are others here that are setup to handle DEC media. I thought I'd write to ask why you were looking for a SA900 disk drive? Most applications use SA800/801's. Not being a DEC person, I'd not know about DEC applications. Still, a SA800 can be wired to look like a SA900. It is just a different connector. I have a machine that does use SA900's and I've been watching for one for some time. Take Care Dwight aka MantisShrimp >From: Francesca Smith <fsmith at ladylinux.com> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation "Mostly >DecStuff" >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:07:35 -0400 > >Hello, > >I been lurking here for a while and figure I come out of my shell to say hi >and >say how much I love reading most all the posts here. > >Now as to my question/questions and or dilemma. > >I have a bunch of old media. RK05's , RK06's, RL02's, RL01's , 8 Inch >Floppies, >RX50 Floppies , 9 track tapes among other things. > >Now before I run off and do something real stupid (Like damage the media by >not >properly handling it when archiving off) I figured I ask some advice. > >I know all about Bitsavers "Al Kassow I am so sorry but I bid up against >you a >few times and now that I have gotten to know you by lurking here It won't >happen >again." Bitsavers is a awesome resource and yours and others efforts there >are >VERY much appreciated and admired from my lil corner of the world. > >I have some sentimental attachment to some of this media as in its from my >"PDP" >days of the late 70's and 80's. But most of this stuff I just rescued. Lots >of >it has actual Dec Labels indicating multiple versions of RT11, RSX11, Older >Vms >etc. > >To get this stuff out there for all of you. What should I do ?? Put up a >list >with my best guess of the contents and see if anyone will help me and all >of you >out by getting the bits off the platters/media for people for years and >years to >enjoy ?? > >Or is this stuff so garden variety that I should just hook up my 11/34 , >11/73 >and Microvax and get busy pulling off the bits and bytes before they become >star >dust or whatever old magnetic bits and bytes go to when they vanish from >the >media. ?? > >I don't have everything in place to read off all this stuff yet. I am >having a >dickens of a time getting someone to send me a BA23 I won on E-Pay so I can >put >together franken pdp (11/73 from many parts :-)) And I certainly don't have >a >RK06 laying around and or controller for example. > >All I ask is that anyone taking any of this media understand that some of >it I >want back after analysis and in every case if anything valuable turns up >that it >be posted publically. > >Sorry for the long winded post. Had a lot to say I been holding back now >for >months. > >I won't even touch on my piles of documentation that I need to start >scanning in >this post. Perhaps in the future :-) > >-- >Kindest Regards, > >Francesca Smith > >"No Problems Only Solutions" >Lady Linux Internet Services >Baltimore, Maryland 21217 _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 12 22:59:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:59:31 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F60C43.9090106@oldskool.org> References: <18817072.1173747221568.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <006e01c76510$5de4b420$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45F60C43.9090106@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45F621A3.7020602@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Nope. .mp4 files cannot be played by older players, hence the need to > keep them named that way. Well then convert it to a older format. Lower the better since I don't think linux machines may be able to handle the latest windows and/or multi-media platform mpgs. From GaryDFisher at shaw.ca Mon Mar 12 22:12:16 2007 From: GaryDFisher at shaw.ca (Gary Fisher) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:12:16 -0600 Subject: Reconstructing Fastback Plus Backups from floppies Message-ID: <001301c7651d$679d0870$0400a8c0@fisher.ca> Hi everybody, I haven't posted for a long while but I have a nasty little problem to submit to you. I recently got a bunch of diskettes that I believe contain Fastback Plus archives as they are called (for example) 881123_B.005 which I believe to be the fifth disk of a backup on drive B taken Nov 23, 1988. I poked around in the files and the last disk has directories of the original drive backed up and there is a \FASTBACK subdirectory with the FB.exe of Feb 4, 1988 so I think it is version 2.xx I do have a Fastback Plus version 2.11 and for the life of me I can't find a way of reconstructing the catalog for those disks. It keeps looking for a .FUL file for the catalog. Unlike MSBACKUP of DOS 6.22 vintage (and probably before) there doesn't seem to be a re-construct catalog option. Damn, it seems pretty silly that the .FUL file isn't with the diskettes or no way to get the catalog back. Of course the files are mostly compressed but there is enough ASCII to see some of the directories and text. Can anybody give me some sage advice as there seems to be no info that I can get through a pretty exhaustive Google search so far. Thanks, GF This was a message from Gary Fisher GaryDFisher at shaw.ca From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 22:25:56 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:25:56 -0500 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay Message-ID: <000b01c7651f$50a439c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> This is not only a very rare terminal, it is in absolutely gorgeous condition. Heck it would be gorgeous even if it was beat up & dirty. But it's rather pristine. Bet this goes for real money.... http://tinyurl.com/2xalbc Pretty much defines retro-computing-beauty. Jay West From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Mar 12 23:18:57 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:18:57 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to > have disappeared, that the content on ftp sites isn't indexed by > google very well and that large software archives seem to be > disappearing? > > Try searching for old copies of fractint and they are hard to find, > even though they were everywhere as recently as 10 years ago. > > What's happened to FTP? FTP has been deprecated. HTTP is a much better protocol for file transfers, apart from things that should never be done during transfer like CR<>CRLF or character set swaps. But that's the minor problem. The major problem is that the old FTP archives turned into business opportunities. The old military and university sites were predominatly transferred to .coms that thought they could somehow make a profit on them. Of course most of them didn't, and so they folded or got gobbled up. The ones that did figure out a way to profit turned towards providing non-free software at the top of the list. A lot of the old stuff is out there at the some of these sites, but you'll have to wade through 15 pages of Windows payware and shareware before you'll find it. > Should we be working to archive large FTP software repositories? Yes, if it's not too late. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Mar 12 23:18:57 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:18:57 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> On 3/10/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to > have disappeared, that the content on ftp sites isn't indexed by > google very well and that large software archives seem to be > disappearing? > > Try searching for old copies of fractint and they are hard to find, > even though they were everywhere as recently as 10 years ago. > > What's happened to FTP? FTP has been deprecated. HTTP is a much better protocol for file transfers, apart from things that should never be done during transfer like CR<>CRLF or character set swaps. But that's the minor problem. The major problem is that the old FTP archives turned into business opportunities. The old military and university sites were predominatly transferred to .coms that thought they could somehow make a profit on them. Of course most of them didn't, and so they folded or got gobbled up. The ones that did figure out a way to profit turned towards providing non-free software at the top of the list. A lot of the old stuff is out there at the some of these sites, but you'll have to wade through 15 pages of Windows payware and shareware before you'll find it. > Should we be working to archive large FTP software repositories? Yes, if it's not too late. Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 12 23:20:07 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:20:07 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F5ACEA.31492.4962CB40@cclist.sydex.com> References: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <45F54E0C.12561.47F039D1@cclist.sydex.com>, <45F5E04D.6010005@mdrconsult.com> <45F5ACEA.31492.4962CB40@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45F62677.6040500@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Mar 2007 at 18:20, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> yes, Apple does. > > Where do I find it? To be clear, I want a standalone QT player with > no preset file associations that I can invoke from a command line-- > just a simple utility to play a file. No installation, or registry > modification. A *nix version would be even better. Sounds like you need VLC (www.videolan.org) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 12 23:22:39 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:22:39 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F621A3.7020602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <18817072.1173747221568.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <006e01c76510$5de4b420$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45F60C43.9090106@oldskool.org> <45F621A3.7020602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45F6270F.90804@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Nope. .mp4 files cannot be played by older players, hence the need to >> keep them named that way. > Well then convert it to a older format. Lower the better since > I don't think linux machines may be able to handle the latest > windows and/or multi-media platform mpgs. Sure they can, and there are many people working diligently to ensure that they do. The newest stuff requires 4x the horsepower to play back, but they are 4x smaller, so it generally evens out. Come on guys, MPEG-4 is an ISO standard and it's cross-platform. What is the big deal? Would you rather have a 160x120 Cinepak .MOV from 1992? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 12 23:43:16 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:43:16 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <003701c76517$fa789c50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> <200703120009.l2C093BU009042@mail.bcpl.net> <003701c76517$fa789c50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20070313044316.GA6907@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 09:33:25PM -0500, Jay West wrote: > Dave wrote... > >Jay, would you consider enabling anonymous FTP access to bitsavers.org? > Uggg... I'd really rather not... for a few internal reasons mostly having > to do with our logging infrastructure. > > In the final analysis it's Al's call though, not mine. Dave, just use a mirror, for example: computer-refuge.org:/bitsavers :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 12 23:53:10 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:53:10 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002601c7652b$80699270$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Eric wrote.... > FTP has been deprecated. HTTP is a much better protocol for file > transfers I beg to differ. HTTP doesn't strike me as a protocol that is well designed for general purpose binary file transfer. But more to the point, I don't see ftp as being deprecated. Far from it. It seems to be quite alive and well in the areas I frequent. Jay From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Mar 13 00:02:14 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:02:14 -0400 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation "Mostly DecStuff In-Reply-To: <200703130426.l2D4PD2i043619@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703130426.l2D4PD2i043619@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200703130102.14581.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Tuesday 13 March 2007 12:26:16 am cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Jay Wrote .. > If you have RK05/6 & RLxx & RXxx drives that you completely trust as being > good working drives, load up vtserver and make images of the packs over a > serial port to your PC. Then you can put the images up online (or I can put > the images up on classiccmp.org under /PDP-11). Yep I am not real trusting of the drives I have. I have two RL02's one RL01 and two RK05's coming. The RK05's are known working good. But .. until I actually get a "scratch pack" I am not mounting anything in any of these drives. The RL's I need to test with media I don't care about and also I need to find a qbus or unibus controller in any case. I have about 75 or so RL02's/RL01's and about 20 RK05's. Two of the RK05's are extremely precious to me. I used these in the early 80's with a 11/45 and 11/70 I had in a lab in California. The thing is that they stayed behind at the place I use to work at while I moved on to work on other exciting things like VAX's. Then about a year or so ago. I saw these RK05's on E-Pay. I WAS absolutely Floored when I opened up the box and they were my packs looking just like when I left them. What is the chance of that happening. ??? (Now I have to find the 11/70 and 11/45 :-) ) So I want the data off these and I want them back since well ... They are in a way a part of my first love :-) Ok well as far as computers go that is :-) > I'd be happy to do the RL01, RL02, RX01, and RX02 media for you. My RK05 > isn't working yet, don't have an RK06, and haven't tested my TU81+ yet. Ok cool. Most the RL02's and RL01's are actual factory dec labeled software packs. Let me get a list together. It will take a while to transcribe all of them. I have about 15 RK05's coming in a week that contain DEC software also. Soon after this I will have the drives and should be able to work the stuff off them after finding a couple blank scratch packs. Floppys I have GADS of as in huge huge amounts of software and archives. Most of its from some long forgotten Xray spectroscopy program. (From a rescue not anything I was working on nor have a clue about) But there is quite a few with working RT11 and RSX11 and layered products on them. This may be easier once I get that 11/73 going. I am close to having some working Shugart 8 inch floppys. And I got about 5 or so RX50 drives floating around here. -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 13 01:00:40 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:00:40 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F6270F.90804@oldskool.org> References: <18817072.1173747221568.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <006e01c76510$5de4b420$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45F60C43.9090106@oldskool.org> <45F621A3.7020602@jetnet.ab.ca> <45F6270F.90804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45F63E08.4010604@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Sure they can, and there are many people working diligently to ensure > that they do. The newest stuff requires 4x the horsepower to play back, > but they are 4x smaller, so it generally evens out. > > Come on guys, MPEG-4 is an ISO standard and it's cross-platform. What > is the big deal? Would you rather have a 160x120 Cinepak .MOV from 1992? No but then I still use older tools since they tend to be less bloated. For me I am about 2 years behind the time for the latest stuff, and I suspect many people are in the same boat. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 13 00:11:06 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <002601c7652b$80699270$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Mar 12, 7 11:53:10 pm" Message-ID: <200703130511.l2D5B6ok005440@floodgap.com> > > FTP has been deprecated. HTTP is a much better protocol for file > > transfers > I beg to differ. HTTP doesn't strike me as a protocol that is well designed > for general purpose binary file transfer. *cough* gopher *cough* -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never trust a computer you can't lift. ------------------------------------- From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Mar 13 00:17:40 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:17:40 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 43, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <200703130426.l2D4PD2i043619@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703130426.l2D4PD2i043619@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200703130117.40472.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Tuesday 13 March 2007 12:26:16 am cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Dwight wrote .. > Although, I'm not the one to help you read your disk, there > are others here that are setup to handle DEC media. > I thought I'd write to ask why you were looking for a SA900 > disk drive? Most applications use SA800/801's. Not being a > DEC person, I'd not know about DEC applications. > Still, a SA800 can be wired to look like a SA900. It is just > a different connector. > I have a machine that does use SA900's and I've been watching > for one for some time. Ahh well I was trying to get two of the 851's that were up at the Vintage Computer Market recently. The rest of my E-bay Thrashing has been of the same variety and knowing I can hack them up to do my archiving. I really messed up a year ago and did not buy two perfectly working DSD440's when I could had them cheap. The funny thing is that I have RX02's here. But they are part of a semi mint Decmate I have. I really did not want to pull them out to do this work rather leaving them in the cart as they are. And RX02's drove me nuts when they were new. I always prefered the DSD440's and Shugart drives. Same thing goes for the Rainbows I have. I really am loathe to pull out the RX drives in them either. I suppose that I could archive the RX50 stuff using the Rainbows. ?? Thats another thing I have a pile of stuff for .. Rainbows since I have a weird affinity for them. Maybe its unlike my 11/70 or 11/45 wanting .. They don't take up 1/2 a basement. :-) I am rambling. Sorry for the "Winded" posts. -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 13 00:16:41 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:16:41 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F63E08.4010604@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <18817072.1173747221568.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <006e01c76510$5de4b420$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45F60C43.9090106@oldskool.org> <45F621A3.7020602@jetnet.ab.ca> <45F6270F.90804@oldskool.org> <45F63E08.4010604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45F633B9.4060209@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Sure they can, and there are many people working diligently to ensure >> that they do. The newest stuff requires 4x the horsepower to play >> back, but they are 4x smaller, so it generally evens out. >> >> Come on guys, MPEG-4 is an ISO standard and it's cross-platform. What >> is the big deal? Would you rather have a 160x120 Cinepak .MOV from 1992? > > No but then I still use older tools since they tend to be less bloated. > For me I am about 2 years behind the time for the latest stuff, > and I suspect many people are in the same boat. That's fine, but VLC (www.videolan.org, a cross-platform player) has supported MPEG-4 for two years already ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 00:29:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:29:31 -0500 Subject: Using DECmateI RX02 drives in the pedestal Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703122229w2ccc0a65k4d2711cedb9bb850@mail.gmail.com> On 3/13/07, Francesca Smith <fsmith at ladylinux.com> wrote: > The funny thing is that I have RX02's here. But they are part of > a semi mint Decmate I have. I really did not want to pull them out to do this > work rather leaving them in the cart as they are. You don't have to pull the drives - the DB25 connector on the back of your pedestal is a DEC-standard way of externally cabling RX02s - it was done the same way with the table-top RX02 shell for the MINC-11. If you get your 11/73 together, you could aquire or make a cable to go from the RXV21 to a DB25, then use a DB25-to-DB25 cable from the 11/73 to the back of your DECmate pedestal. No removal required. > And RX02's drove me nuts > when they were new. I always prefered the DSD440's and Shugart drives. Can't help you there. I've used DSD drives, Heathkit drives, and, on a Dataram PDP-11 clone, a Shugart drive with a 3rd-party controller that emulated the RXV21 at the register level (no bizarre drivers, at least). I don't have anything really bad to say about the RX02s except they are somewhat physically large compared to other offerings. > Same thing goes for the Rainbows I have. I really am loathe to pull out the RX > drives in them either. You don't have to. > I suppose that I could archive the RX50 stuff using the Rainbows. ?? You could, but then you need a way to get the files off the Rainbows. We've been discussing RX50s recently here - with the right PC-compatible drive, you can just read RX50 media in a modernish box (one old enough have proper floppy support, so, _in general_, something with a Pentium-I or older is probably a safe bet, but the only way to know for certain is to know the capabilities of your hardware and most likely to run a few quick tests) Personally, I maintain an older box with a 5.25" floppy that reads and writes RX50s just fine. Haven't had occasion to fire it up lately, so I should probably do that to see if the heads have glued down to the platters or if the CMOS battery as died. It's an old 486DX2/66 VLB box - too old to run a modern OS, but powerful enough to run an OS capable of capturing diskette images and squirting them over an Ethernet card to something "modern" for burning and archiving. You can use a Rainbow if you want, but that way would seem to me to be adding difficulty to the task without a corresponding payback, especially given how sloppy the tolerances are with real RX50 drives. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 13 01:40:04 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:40:04 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <002601c7652b$80699270$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> <002601c7652b$80699270$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <p0624082ac21bedfd439d@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:53 PM -0500 3/12/07, Jay West wrote: >Eric wrote.... >>FTP has been deprecated. HTTP is a much better protocol for file >>transfers >I beg to differ. HTTP doesn't strike me as a protocol that is well >designed for general purpose binary file transfer. > >But more to the point, I don't see ftp as being deprecated. Far from >it. It seems to be quite alive and well in the areas I frequent. Ditto, in the OpenVMS world FTP is the only good way to obtain your patches. FTP retains the file attributes while http doesn't, that is very bad with VMS files. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 13 01:45:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:45:35 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F62677.6040500@oldskool.org> References: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <45F5ACEA.31492.4962CB40@cclist.sydex.com>, <45F62677.6040500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45F5E61F.17782.4A423DC7@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Mar 2007 at 23:20, Jim Leonard wrote: > Sounds like you need VLC (www.videolan.org) Thanks for the lead--I didn't know about this project! Cheers, Chuck From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Mar 13 05:39:03 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:39:03 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F54E0C.12561.47F039D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084882F9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I could use some help here ... On my website (www.pdp-11.nl) is a folder called "movies". At this moment there is just one page in it, the head movement of an RK07 that initializes. It was .mov, but it is converted to Indeo format .avi (with STOIK Video converter 2) to get the size smaller. I still have an original .mov, but it is 5.81 Mb! Which (free) tool can I use to convert .mov to .mpg ? I would also like to cut a smaal piece from the start and from the end of the .mov movie. Also, in IE, when you click the picture, IE launches a new window in which the movie is played in a small frame. The move is actually 320 x 240, so download it and play in your player will probably look better. Are there better ways to add a movie on the website (limiting to JavaScript)? thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 13 07:37:05 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 06:37:05 -0600 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation "Mostly DecStuff In-Reply-To: <200703130102.14581.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200703130426.l2D4PD2i043619@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200703130102.14581.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070313062714.07297c88@mail> At 11:02 PM 3/12/2007, Francesca Smith wrote: >I have about 75 or so RL02's/RL01's and about 20 RK05's. Two of the RK05's are >extremely precious to me. I used these in the early 80's with a 11/45 and >11/70 I had in a lab in California. The thing is that they stayed behind at >the place I use to work at while I moved on to work on other exciting things >like VAX's. Then about a year or so ago. I saw these RK05's on E-Pay. I WAS >absolutely Floored when I opened up the box and they were my packs looking >just like when I left them. What is the chance of that happening. ??? Lightning strikes. Chance favors the prepared mind. Or at least the obsessive mind with time on its hands. I have a stack of nine-tracks I bought at the university surplus that must've stayed in limbo from a department I once worked at - at least fifteen years before. I looked at the stack on the shelf at the sale and said to myself, why, those look just like the ones we used to use... and I reached for them, and they were. A few bucks and they were mine. Soon after, a list member helped me read them. They were a set of RSTS backups from when I was working there. - John From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 13 07:43:57 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:43:57 -0700 Subject: Interesting Book Message-ID: <45F69C8D.A2090C6A@rain.org> I picked up "Future Mind" by Edward Lias, (c)1982 at UCSB, and the first skimming shows it to be a pretty interesting book. Things I found interesting were in the chapter titled "How Many Would You Like?", that included marketing research type information. A couple of examples are Small Business Computer Census and Minicomputer Census for 1980 that give the number of installations for a number of computer vendors. Included are some that are not well known, Modular Micro, Artronix, Bytronix, New England Digital Corp., etc. One of the charts was a table showing the speed in operations per second for about 100 computers. This is a pretty expensive book, but well worth the $1.00 or so that a number of online bookstores are selling it for. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 15:38:12 2007 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:38:12 +0000 Subject: Xerox 850 / 860 hardware differences In-Reply-To: <45F5B67C.5030306@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <C21B6AB4.8786%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 12/3/07 20:22, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > It's in Welwyn, UK. Shouts of "I'm close to there and desperately need an 850 > base unit to go with my 850 peripherals" will of course be gratefully received > :-) I'd much rather a complete system be restored than a partial system be > stripped for spares! [I don't actually know yet that the current owner's > happily to release it to anyone other than the museum, though - but can find > out if needed] Of course, you know I'm not THAT far from Welwyn right now, but given recent events with my now ex I'm trying to move closer to Cambridge so get in while you can. A From adamg at pobox.com Mon Mar 12 16:45:04 2007 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:45:04 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> The Internet used to have a number of useful features that it no longer does today -- for example, the finger and talk protocols. These protocols no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security reasons. As an example of how 'talk' differs from today's instant messaging systems, one time I was having trouble with some Internet site -- maybe their FTP server was down or something, I don't remember. I fingered the host, found an active user, and 'talk'ed him. He was happy to fill me in on what was up. You can't do that any more. And if you could, it would surely be abused into oblivion by spammers and phishers. Usenet, which is decentralized, requires no access credentials, and has a programmatic interface that allows for sophisticated filtering and offline reading, has largely been displaced by the network prisons known as web forums, which require a separate account for each forum, have a clunky and slow user interface, and are prone to vanishing when their operator loses interest. In general, Internet services which were designed to be accessed programmatically have been replaced with Web services which can only be used manually. On the other hand: HTTP actually isn't that bad as a replacement for FTP, except that uploads are much harder. There's also the problem of machine parsing the directory listings, but FTP had that problem too, to some extent. And the network itself is much faster and more reliable than it used to be. -- Adam From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Mar 13 00:36:37 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:36:37 -0000 Subject: Components & Tools (Was: Re: baud modifier) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DC7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Try Maplin http://www.maplin.co.uk/ (Components Tab) They still stock 74 and 4000 series devices. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 12 March 2007 23:06 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Components & Tools (Was: Re: baud modifier) > H. Gee's in Cambridge is a real blessing in comparison - wide range of > > components and still staffed by people who know what they're talking > > about Having spent a few years studying and then working in Cambridge, I can confirm hhat H Gee was a place I spent far too much money :-) There's nothing much in London either. There's Cricklewood Electronics who have an amazing range of old ICs in stock (heck, they had a TTL chip I could find listed _nowehre_ else, not even on the web). > You lucky fellow, nothing like that in northwest UK that I know of > About the best I seem to be able to do is CPC (ex Farnell), but as Tony > commented the other day, the website is a disaster area for finding I'm lucky. I have a friend who runs a small electornics company and he gives me old RS and Farnell catalogues from time to time. I can find what I need there, type the order codes in on the website to se eif they're still available (of if the RoSH directive has caused them to be replaced), and if not to see what alternatives there are. > That's a cracking idea. Anyone know of good suppliers in the UK? RS seem to > be useless these days too. RS and Farnell are both fine once you've found what you want. The have a reasonable range, and are reliable. Mind you, there are some odd things that I can't find a single UK supplier for (top of the list at the moment is a 36 pin microribbon socket, cable mounting -- think of a socket that mates iwth a Centronics plug and which goes on a cable, not a chassis). -tony From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 13 03:28:35 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:28:35 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <1173686731.4666.0.camel@elric> References: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1173686731.4666.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <1173774515.8455.15.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-03-12 at 08:05 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > *** WARNING - I have not downsized these videos > > *** THEY ARE HUGE - you'll be waiting a while if > > *** you are on dial-up. I'll downsize them later and/or > > *** put them in another format (wmv?). > > Please don't use WMV format. It would be nice if more than the tiny > segment of the list using *exactly the same version* of Windows Media > Player as you could watch them too. As a slightly more helpful remark, if you don't mind I'll download these and recode as a couple of different formats. Personally I recommend Ogg Theora, because it's an entirely free as in (beer|speech) format, with picture quality and compression roughly equivalent to MPEG4. Gordon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 09:25:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:25:15 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <000801c76514$2ff0a5c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <25909475.1173750749207.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000801c76514$2ff0a5c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45F6B44B.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Ashley wrote.... >> After that, I used a video converter program to convert from mp4 to mpg. >> They apparently are different formats. > The mpg extension doesn't (I don't THINK) designate mpg1, mpg2, mpg3, or > mpg4. One trick I found, which I was surprised at, was that you seem to be able to 'cat' several mpeg files together into one and a player will happily play the entirety of the subsequent file. Weird; I mean most formats expect a single header and some data, but mpeg seems to be able to cope just fine with lots of header and data segments. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 09:34:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:34:35 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F6B67B.6000609@yahoo.co.uk> Eric J Korpela wrote: >> What's happened to FTP? > > FTP has been deprecated. HTTP is a much better protocol for file > transfers, apart from things that should never be done during transfer > like CR<>CRLF or character set swaps. Most HTTP tools seem terrible at supporting restarts (resuming interrupted transfers) as compared to FTP tools, though. The only irritating thing I've noticed is that FTP seems consistently slower than HTTP for transfers. I'm not sure if that's down to the protocol, deliberate throttling by server admins, or simply that HTTP servers tend to have more hardware thrown at them than FTP. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 09:41:37 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:41:37 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: <45F6B821.30300@yahoo.co.uk> Adam Goldman wrote: > The Internet used to have a number of useful features that it no longer > does today -- for example, the finger and talk protocols. These protocols > no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security reasons. It was OK until they let the idiots in ;) > On the other hand: HTTP actually isn't that bad as a replacement for FTP, > except that uploads are much harder. There's also the problem of machine > parsing the directory listings, but FTP had that problem too, to some extent. It's a shame that there wasn't a widely-adopted data transfer protocol that was truly bi-directional. Both FTP and HTTP largely revolve around moving data in one direction only. Even given the predominant client/server model of the time, it's a shame that the "main" protocols weren't designed with the foresight that one day we might want to move just as much stuff *to* a site as we were taking *from* it. > And the network itself is much faster and more reliable than it used to be. Indeed. I was almost about to disagree, but I think it's just that people accepted the glitches more back in the "old days", so we hear more complaints now when something does break even though it's actually better than it was. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 09:44:43 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:44:43 -0500 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay In-Reply-To: <000b01c7651f$50a439c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000b01c7651f$50a439c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45F6B8DB.9030406@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > This is not only a very rare terminal Mmmm, '70s brown and orange ;-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 09:57:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:57:30 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F5ACEA.31492.4962CB40@cclist.sydex.com> References: <27041569.1173726729628.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <45F54E0C.12561.47F039D1@cclist.sydex.com>, <45F5E04D.6010005@mdrconsult.com> <45F5ACEA.31492.4962CB40@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45F6BBDA.4040500@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Mar 2007 at 18:20, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> yes, Apple does. > > Where do I find it? To be clear, I want a standalone QT player with > no preset file associations that I can invoke from a command line-- > just a simple utility to play a file. No installation, or registry > modification. A *nix version would be even better. Hmmm, I use mplayer for most things (there's a Windows port too I gather). It's a console app, but several MB in install footprint due to the many different formats that it supports - so that might not be what you're looking for. From the man page: [ mplayer is a movie player for Linux (runs on many other platforms and [ CPU architectures, see the documentation). It plays most MPEG/VOB, AVI, [ ASF/WMA/WMV, RM, QT/MOV/MP4, Ogg/OGM, MKV, VIVO, FLI, NuppelVideo, [ yuv4mpeg, FILM and RoQ files, supported by many native and binary codecs. [ You can watch Video CD, SVCD, DVD, 3ivx, DivX 3/4/5 and even WMV movies, [ too. I find it handy as it'll dump all sorts of "streaming" formats from websites to a file for off-line use - I used to get annoyed at seeing something on a site but not having time right them to look at it, then finding that it was gone a few hours later. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 13 10:02:44 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:02:44 -0800 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation "MostlyDecStuff In-Reply-To: <200703130102.14581.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <BAY138-F12F0F7DCF862D952DB8DCAA37C0@phx.gbl> >From: Francesca Smith <fsmith at ladylinux.com> > >Floppys I have GADS of as in huge huge amounts of software and archives. >Most >of its from some long forgotten Xray spectroscopy program. (From a rescue >not >anything I was working on nor have a clue about) But there is quite a few >with working RT11 and RSX11 and layered products on them. This may be >easier >once I get that 11/73 going. I am close to having some working Shugart 8 >inch >floppys. And I got about 5 or so RX50 drives floating around here. > > Hi Are you looking for single sided or double sided? If single sided, the SA800's that were on ebay should work fine. If double sided, you'll need that SA851. These have two heads. If your connector is a 50 pin, you need a the SA800 and SA851's. The SA900's have a 44 pin edge connector but are otherwise similar to the 800's. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Mar 13 11:06:47 2007 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:06:47 -0600 Subject: Looking for Stu Birchall In-Reply-To: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <45F6CC17.5080206@ubanproductions.com> I've lost contact with Stu Birchall. I last heard from him on 1/02/07, but nothing since. Does anyone know if he is ok? --tom From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 13 10:57:29 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F6B67B.6000609@yahoo.co.uk> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> <45F6B67B.6000609@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200703131601.MAA18455@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> FTP has been deprecated. By whom? Since when? >> HTTP is a much better protocol for file transfers, apart from things >> that should never be done during transfer like CR<>CRLF or character >> set swaps. Say what? I don't know what you've been smoking, but it's obviously the good stuff. Line ending conversion and character set conversion are *exactly* the sort of things that need doing upon file transfer between heterogenous systems. One of FTP's major advantages is that it is prepared to handle such things. More generally, it was designed for file transfer rather than hypertext transport (as reflected in the protocol names), and, oddly enough, it works better for the purpose, including things like restarts and preservation of file structure more complicated than "big array of octets" or "big array of lines of text". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 13 11:16:04 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:16:04 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F6B67B.6000609@yahoo.co.uk> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> <45F6B67B.6000609@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F6CE44.9030701@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > The only irritating thing I've noticed is that FTP seems consistently > slower than HTTP for transfers. I'm not sure if that's down to the > protocol, deliberate throttling by server admins, or simply that HTTP > servers tend to have more hardware thrown at them than FTP. FTP adds an additional layer of checking (that TCP/IP already provides, so I've never understood why its there), so that might be one reason. But a better reason is that HTTP in today's world is used for streaming, and is also simpler to firewall. FTP, especially active mode, requires state tables and a tiny bit of thinking to handle properly across most firewalls, so a loaded FTP server behind a firewall will be slower than a loaded HTTP server behind a firewall. I'm very surprised by all the anti-FTP discussion, including security. If it's an anonymous /pub archive of stuff to distribute, there is no better solution than FTP. Bittorrent is only useful for files for which there are multiple requesters at the same time (like weekly snapshots of large kernel source trees or something). Bittorrent gains you *nothing* for onesy-twosey requests; in fact, it's much more of a PITA to set up. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 11:32:03 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:32:03 -0500 Subject: 8" drive variations Message-ID: <45F6D203.7060901@yahoo.co.uk> As hinted at in another post a few days ago, I'd like to add an 8" drive (or possibly more than one if necessary) to my Imagedisk machine in order to be able to archive 8" media. My knowledge of 8" drives is practically non-existent, so what are the gotchas involved? Things like: Do 8" drives exist in both hard and soft sector variants? Is one far more common than the other (as with 5.25")? Do 8" drives exist with wildly different track counts (40, 77, 80 etc.) and again is any one particular flavour far more common than the others? Are there any problems with some particular drives that'll make interfacing them to a '765 type FDC more difficult? etc. etc. I suppose the real big question is: Is there a particular flavour (i.e. geometry and interface, not specific brand) of 8" drive I could use that will mean that I can read and write the majority of 8" floppies found in vintage hardware? That would at least seem like a good initial step, and I could worry about the minority formats later on. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 11:35:50 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:35:50 -0500 Subject: Looking for Stu Birchall In-Reply-To: <45F6CC17.5080206@ubanproductions.com> References: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <45F6CC17.5080206@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <45F6D2E6.2040002@yahoo.co.uk> Tom Uban wrote: > I've lost contact with Stu Birchall. I last heard from > him on 1/02/07, but nothing since. Does anyone know if > he is ok? I had an email from him on the 5th of this month. And well reminded, as I'd gone and forgotten to reply (apologies here if you're reading this Stu, I'll reply now!) cheers Jules From andy at smokebelch.org Tue Mar 13 11:41:08 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:41:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F6CE44.9030701@oldskool.org> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> <45F6B67B.6000609@yahoo.co.uk> <45F6CE44.9030701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070313163508.V57091@plum.flirble.org> On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> The only irritating thing I've noticed is that FTP seems consistently >> slower than HTTP for transfers. I'm not sure if that's down to the >> protocol, deliberate throttling by server admins, or simply that HTTP >> servers tend to have more hardware thrown at them than FTP. > > FTP adds an additional layer of checking (that TCP/IP already provides, so > I've never understood why its there), so that might be one reason. But a > better reason is that HTTP in today's world is used for streaming, and is > also simpler to firewall. FTP, especially active mode, requires state tables > and a tiny bit of thinking to handle properly across most firewalls, so a > loaded FTP server behind a firewall will be slower than a loaded HTTP server > behind a firewall. > > I'm very surprised by all the anti-FTP discussion, including security. If > it's an anonymous /pub archive of stuff to distribute, there is no better > solution than FTP. Bittorrent is only useful for files for which there are > multiple requesters at the same time (like weekly snapshots of large kernel > source trees or something). Bittorrent gains you *nothing* for onesy-twosey > requests; in fact, it's much more of a PITA to set up. I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI network, and bury this pesky Internet. Andrew From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 11:48:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:48:31 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703131601.MAA18455@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> <45F6B67B.6000609@yahoo.co.uk> <200703131601.MAA18455@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45F6D5DF.6090602@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: > Line ending conversion and character set conversion are *exactly* the > sort of things that need doing upon file transfer between heterogenous > systems. One of FTP's major advantages is that it is prepared to > handle such things. Hmm, personally I'm not convinced, purely because every single FTP implementation can't hope to cover every possible conversion that every person will ever want done :-) In situations like that I think I'd rather it dictate that people *always* have to do appropriate conversions locally, rather than a "sometimes you might, sometimes you might not" policy. > More generally, it was designed for file transfer rather than hypertext > transport (as reflected in the protocol names), and, oddly enough, it > works better for the purpose, including things like restarts and > preservation of file structure more complicated than "big array of > octets" or "big array of lines of text". I'd certainly agree there. Whoever decided that HTTP should be hacked into a more general-purpose transport protocol needs hitting around the head with an exceedingly large fish. The 'net as a whole is a far worse place because of it I think. From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Mar 13 12:22:06 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:22:06 -0400 Subject: Using DECmateI RX02 drives in the pedestal In-Reply-To: <200703131647.l2DGkEO5052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703131647.l2DGkEO5052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200703131322.07128.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Tuesday 13 March 2007 12:47:04 pm cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Ethan Wrote .. > You don't have to pull the drives - the DB25 connector on the back of > your pedestal is a DEC-standard way of externally cabling RX02s - it > was done the same way with the table-top RX02 shell for the MINC-11. > If you get your 11/73 together, you could aquire or make a cable to go > from the RXV21 to a DB25, then use a DB25-to-DB25 cable from the 11/73 > to the back of your DECmate pedestal. ?No removal required. Really I was wondering about that connector. Sorry for the ignorance. I guess I better read up on this. This could be quite workable. Thank you very much for this tip. > Personally, I maintain an older box with a 5.25" floppy that reads and > writes RX50s just fine. ?Haven't had occasion to fire it up lately, so > I should probably do that to see if the heads have glued down to the > platters or if the CMOS battery as died. ?It's an old 486DX2/66 VLB > box - too old to run a modern OS, but powerful enough to run an OS > capable of capturing diskette images and squirting them over an > Ethernet card to something "modern" for burning and archiving. I will have to read up on the archives. I was not so sure if the drives were interchangable. I have a couple old servicable PC's around here. Certainly I can explore this intriging option. Good tips ... Very Helpful Thank You :-) -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 13 12:06:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:06:43 -0700 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <45F6D203.7060901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45F6D203.7060901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F677B3.11391.4C7AEDB9@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Mar 2007 at 11:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > As hinted at in another post a few days ago, I'd like to add an 8" drive (or > possibly more than one if necessary) to my Imagedisk machine in order to be > able to archive 8" media. ... On many 8" drives, HS and SS operation is set by jumpers on the drive electronics board. Some drives have an onboard FM data separator. Seek rates and mechanisms can be all over the map. Pinout need not be the same (IIRC, Calcomp drives feed their power through the 44-pin connector). There is less of a standard form factor ((i.e. floppy slots and latch positions are not usually the same from manufacturer to manufacturer). Power connectors can be significantly different. Some drives have binary select; others have radial select; many have both. Options (e.g. door lock, eject) can vary. Some require +24, +12, +5 and -5 power supplies; others will get by fine on +24 and +5 only. Some have a DC motor; most full-height models use an AC mains- powered motor. Some are single-sided only--others are double-sided. Generally, the later the drive was produced, the more likely it is that it conforms to a Shugart SA-850 interface. Early 8" drives mostly demonstrate how different implementations can be. For me, some early Japanese drives are still a mystery. Forget about using a hard-sector drive with a 765-type controller. It doesn't work that way. Get a Catweasel if you want to do those. That's what I can think of at the moment. I'm certain there's more. Personally, I have a liking for the full-height Siemens and Qume drives. I never cared much for the half-height 8" drives. Cheers, Chuck From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Mar 13 12:27:24 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:27:24 -0400 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation "Mostly DecStuff" In-Reply-To: <200703131647.l2DGkEO5052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703131647.l2DGkEO5052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200703131327.24514.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Tuesday 13 March 2007 12:47:04 pm cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: John Wrote .. > Lightning strikes. ?Chance favors the prepared mind. ?Or at least the > obsessive mind with time on its hands. ?I have a stack of nine-tracks > I bought at the university surplus that must've stayed in limbo from > a department I once worked at - at least fifteen years before. > > I looked at the stack on the shelf at the sale and said to myself, > why, those look just like the ones we used to use... ?and I reached > for them, and they were. ?A few bucks and they were mine. ? > Soon after, a list member helped me read them. ?They were a set > of RSTS backups from when I was working there. Cool to me it was like catching time in a bottle. Getting to the files I worked with perhaps will bring me back in a small way to those days. You never know how much you miss something till its gone. I really did not appreciate those early awkward days until much later in life. -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Mar 13 12:36:41 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:36:41 -0400 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation =?iso-8859-1?q?=A0?= "MostlyDecStuff" In-Reply-To: <200703131647.l2DGkEO5052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703131647.l2DGkEO5052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200703131336.41804.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Tuesday 13 March 2007 12:47:04 pm cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Dwight Wrote .. > Are you looking for single sided or double sided? If single sided, > the SA800's that were on ebay should work fine. If double sided, > you'll need that SA851. These have two heads. > If your connector is a 50 pin, you need a the SA800 and SA851's. > The SA900's have a 44 pin edge connector but are otherwise > similar to the 800's. Double sided would be preferred since It would be more flexible in the long run. Although I could get by with a single sided drive if I had to. I will read up on this. I have come across some tables of the differences of each type of 8 inch drive but nothing all encompassing enough to give me a good decision. -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 12:41:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:41:47 -0400 Subject: Using DECmateI RX02 drives in the pedestal In-Reply-To: <200703131322.07128.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200703131647.l2DGkEO5052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200703131322.07128.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703131041t741438b1w887cd81d9daef53b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/13/07, Francesca Smith <fsmith at ladylinux.com> wrote: > On Tuesday 13 March 2007 12:47:04 pm cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Ethan Wrote .. > > > You don't have to pull the drives - the DB25 connector on the back of > > your pedestal is a DEC-standard way of externally cabling RX02s... > > Really I was wondering about that connector. Sorry for the ignorance. No problem there - if you haven't torn apart your pedestal, you wouldn't know that there's a standard 40-pin cable coming from the drive, ending in a small board with the DB25. If you do take the top of your pedestal off (2 quarter-turn fasteners), you can get a look at that board and its part number. I don't have quick access to mine or I'd just list the part number here. You could locate or replicate a second board, then use it with your 11/73 when you get it built up. You could also make a cable with a DB25M for the drive and a 40-pin connector for the RXV21, but I don't know your comfortability with hardware hacking. In the end, the goal is to get the active pins run between the RX02 board in the pedestal and the RXV21. There are several approaches, some involving making cables, some buying cables. It depends on the usual time/money/effort triangle. > > Personally, I maintain an older box with a 5.25" floppy that reads and > > writes RX50s just fine... > I will have to read up on the archives. I was not so sure if the drives were > interchangable. Hmm... if you thought I was suggesting hanging a real RX50 off of a PC controller, I was not. The whole point is to avoid using real RX50 drives for archiving because their mechanical tolerances are somewhat slack. I recommend something like a Teac drive or other solid PC-compatible 5.25" drive in your archiving PC. With the right software and the right PC floppy controller, you should have few problems reading RX50 disks. > Good tips ... Very Helpful Thank You :-) You're welcome. Glad to help. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 13 12:44:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:44:16 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> On Mar 12, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Adam Goldman wrote: > The Internet used to have a number of useful features that it no > longer > does today -- for example, the finger and talk protocols. These > protocols > no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security reasons. Hmm, that's an interesting assertion: apophis$ which finger /bin/finger apophis$ which talk /bin/talk ...looks to me like they're still there. If people of the "web browser generation" don't know enough to use them (on the "other" end, I mean) then you probably don't want to finger or talk to them anyway. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 13 13:03:47 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:03:47 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1HQ9bv-00064C-00@xmission.xmission.com> <d67e42a90703122118l2f85fc49s5809fcdfb018c04e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9C4B77BF-2FB9-411E-BA90-41FF4D17A5C2@neurotica.com> On Mar 13, 2007, at 12:18 AM, Eric J Korpela wrote: >> Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to >> have disappeared, that the content on ftp sites isn't indexed by >> google very well and that large software archives seem to be >> disappearing? >> >> Try searching for old copies of fractint and they are hard to find, >> even though they were everywhere as recently as 10 years ago. >> >> What's happened to FTP? > > FTP has been deprecated. By you, perhaps. Certainly not by many others. > HTTP is a much better protocol for file transfers, ...in SOME situations, not all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 13 13:14:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:14:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <1173774515.8455.15.camel@elric> References: <9797159.1173668256801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1173686731.4666.0.camel@elric> <1173774515.8455.15.camel@elric> Message-ID: <45F6EA23.2070505@oldskool.org> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > As a slightly more helpful remark, if you don't mind I'll download these > and recode as a couple of different formats. Personally I recommend Ogg > Theora, because it's an entirely free as in (beer|speech) format, with > picture quality and compression roughly equivalent to MPEG4. It is nowhere near equivalent to MPEG4 (disclaimer: I am a video compression author/nerd). But yes, it is free. But hardly anything will play it. If you want cross-platform, there really is no choice other than MPEG (MPEG-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4). I have yet to see convincing arguments for formats other than those for simple media distribution. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 13 13:15:47 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:15:47 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F6B44B.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <25909475.1173750749207.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000801c76514$2ff0a5c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45F6B44B.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F6EA53.8020305@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Jay West wrote: >> Ashley wrote.... >>> After that, I used a video converter program to convert from mp4 to mpg. >>> They apparently are different formats. >> The mpg extension doesn't (I don't THINK) designate mpg1, mpg2, mpg3, >> or mpg4. > > One trick I found, which I was surprised at, was that you seem to be > able to 'cat' several mpeg files together into one and a player will > happily play the entirety of the subsequent file. Weird; I mean most > formats expect a single header and some data, but mpeg seems to be able > to cope just fine with lots of header and data segments. No, some *players* can cope with this. The resulting file is *not* compliant and this is not a recommended practice. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 13:23:57 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:23:57 -0700 Subject: HP items on Gov Liquidation 2645A 79XX Disk / Tape Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703131123n20e0fa2ew83ecf8925b8c4093@mail.gmail.com> Close Time: 03/22/2007 http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=1161597 Warner Robins, GA 31098 1304A 2645A (bad screen rot) 7900? disk drive 85 http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=1126700 Jacksonville, FL 32212 1631D 7980 tape drive From erik at baigar.de Tue Mar 13 13:32:55 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:32:55 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <9600AD50-FAE0-44B7-9B31-AD14A8AC5434@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703131900590.11666-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Hi Roger, thank you very much for all the valuable information. I have lot of stuff to do now and I will keep the group and you up to date on my results. I apologize, that I have to do this in small pieces since I can not spend too much time on this project, so I can not comment all of your points now. But anyway I say many thanks for the hints! > > +/-127 words (crossing any border). Here again, the > > box uses 1complement and thus jump 0x00 is the same > > as jump 0x80: An infinite loop! > If 0x00 is the same as 0x80, then it is not one's complement. Sounds > like sign/absolute. Of course you are right - it is sign+value which is used in PEC for the jumps. > zero are all zeroes and all ones. On the 920, a jump to itself was > referred to as a 'Dynamic Stop', and was the standard was to stop the > computer as there is no stop instruction. I try to avoid doing it on > my mainframes as continually accessing the same word in core might > make it overheat. I read about this before, but I think in my case it is no problem since my setup automatically loads the program, starts the logic analyzer, starts the unit for a certain time (for current tests 1ms), stops the unit, reads the core and the logic analyzer and returns to the shell. So currently I do not fear overheating, but thank you for this hint and I am aware of this... > >>>> 13 Divide > >>> HMMM, the command takes very long but the results are > >>> very strange. I thought it might be some type of > >>> random number generation by an irreducible polynomal, > >>> but it is definitively not Divide. Maybe here is something > >>> different or wrong with the microcode. > >> This divides a signed DOUBLE LENGTH number in the A and Q registers > >> by a signed memory operand. IIRC the A register gets the result and > >> the Q register the remainder. > > OK, I will verify this in the coming days. Now I > > know what to look form but according to my records > > the results of this command always have been junk. Did the experiment on the real unit: Memory operand had always value 0x003, executed several of the (with index register zero at the start) broken-divide: Akku before: 001 005 010 020 050 100 120 150 200 500 fff Q before: fff 500 200 150 120 100 050 020 010 005 002 Akku after: 2ab d55 ff5 fe5 fb5 f05 ee5 eb5 e05 b05 d57 Q after: 000 000 001 001 002 002 003 003 004 004 005 So honestly speaking I cannot see the system behind these numbers ;-) In repeating the experiment I get the same numbers. Changing the memory operand to 0x234 I get the following: Akku after: 003 013 03b 075 123 3a1 415 4c5 743 f2f ffd Q after: 000 000 001 001 002 002 003 003 004 004 005 So... ...big questionmark ... > > "MTA - Move To Accu" is one of two "two-read-cycles" > > instructions. Up to now I did not fugire out, what > > the other instruction does with the data read. Do > > you remember any "two-read" instructions in the Elliotts? > Only the instruction I invented. The first word had the address of a Hey, you where active in the design of these beasts! Really great! So I am proud, that you join this discussion so actively! > a call without lots of special literals. We reused /3 I think, anyway > the original instruction was corrupt the Q Register with B-Line > indexing, but B-Line indexing corrupted the Q register at the start > of the instruction, so a totally useless opcode. Interesting story! In my opinion and in modern times using VHDL to implement everything into hardware very easy, the true heroes are the people like you who implemented microcode with the solder iron or the hand wired type of core-ROM! Really great! > >> I suspect the big plug is for the OMP (Operator's Monitor Panel), and > > Some kind of blinking-light console? Something like > > this exists for the Rolm 1666b, too. This would be > > cool to have! ;-) > Yes, but these were of course much rarer than the computers themselves. Sniff... > For a level 1 interrupt when the processor is on level 2, it stores > the SCR in location 2, and the B in location 3. Then it loads the SCR > from location zero and the B from location 1. That is a clever concept and should be easy to detect. So I will have to do some hardware work in supplying the signals to the appropriate lines and than I will be able to test this hypothesis. > > BTW: Have there been timers on the Elliotts you > > know about? > Yes bit not within the CPU box. Ah OK, so there is some kind of external data bus on the Elliotts. In the case of PEC it consists of a multiplexed open collector bus with a strobe line: address is applied, than the strobe line is set low by the CPU. Shortly afterwards address is removed by the CPU again and the memory unit applies the data to the bus if read is compite and signalizes this to the CPU. This bus runs quite stable even with the 75cm of ribbon cable of my setup attached to it. The shortest instructions which read only onw word are executed within 1.2us independent of the value of the index register. > No, when I started working for Elliotts, all computers were out of my > reach, but then I was offered an old mainframe (which originally cost > 247,000 pounds, for scrap value, 150 pounds). It was built in 1962. I > now have two of them in a barn at home. LOTS of lights and switches, > each has a card reader, card punch, line printer and one has a paper > tape reader and punch. Oh they both have drum stores and ten track > magnetic tape. Wow - that is a really great setup!!!! Do you have got any photos???? How much space offered the drum memory?? Recently I saw a card reader in action at the cray-cyber.org and I know that this is really great stuff!! Happy computing and thanks again, Erik. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 13:43:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:43:54 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703131143r535e6b35r5bbdabadb445fb79@mail.gmail.com> On 3/13/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On Mar 12, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Adam Goldman wrote: > > The Internet used to have a number of useful features that it no > > longer does today -- for example, the finger and talk protocols. These > > protocols no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security reasons. > > Hmm, that's an interesting assertion: > > apophis$ which finger > /bin/finger > apophis$ which talk > /bin/talk > > ...looks to me like they're still there. The binaries are still around, but see how many hosts you can still finger or talk to through the myriad of firewalls that have erupted over the past 10 years. I've worked at places where inbound _and_ outbound traffic was restricted to 22, 80, and 443 unless you were running an officially recognized server. Yes... even 53 - you got DNS via local proxy or not at all. Don't even ask for 25; you can't come up with a valid justification why you should be allowed to open an SMTP port on some external host. Environments like these make problem resolution more difficult, but there you are. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 13:44:54 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:44:54 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F6F126.9030202@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 12, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Adam Goldman wrote: >> The Internet used to have a number of useful features that it no longer >> does today -- for example, the finger and talk protocols. These protocols >> no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security reasons. > > Hmm, that's an interesting assertion: > > apophis$ which finger > /bin/finger > apophis$ which talk > /bin/talk > > ...looks to me like they're still there. > > If people of the "web browser generation" don't know enough to use > them (on the "other" end, I mean) then you probably don't want to finger > or talk to them anyway. ;) It's not so much that the executables are still missing, it's that people no longer run fingerd and talkd. Local finger and talk aren't nearly as useful. Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 13 13:45:19 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:45:19 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F6F13F.3080805@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > apophis$ which finger > /bin/finger > apophis$ which talk > /bin/talk > > ...looks to me like they're still there. Yes, actually try to use them across networks. There are these funny little things on the outside of most organizations called "firewalls", maybe you've heard of them. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 13:49:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:49:28 -0500 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <45F677B3.11391.4C7AEDB9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45F6D203.7060901@yahoo.co.uk> <45F677B3.11391.4C7AEDB9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45F6F238.2050405@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Mar 2007 at 11:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> As hinted at in another post a few days ago, I'd like to add an 8" drive (or >> possibly more than one if necessary) to my Imagedisk machine in order to be >> able to archive 8" media. > ... > > On many 8" drives, HS and SS operation is set by jumpers on the drive > electronics board. Generally-speaking I suppose I can just mess around with jumpers in the short term if there's anything I need to change between reads for different formats; maybe in the longer term there's a project to add parallel port control to ImageDisk and twiddle certain bits under software control, which can then be used to do various things :-) (I assume by HS and SS you mean hard/soft sector? I always think of HS as "head select" and SS as "single step", but I can't imagine why you'd want to force-jumper either of those :-) > Some drives have an onboard FM data separator. Indeed - I think I've come across that before. For drives that have it, can it typically be disabled? > Seek rates and mechanisms can be all over the map. Pinout need not > be the same (IIRC, Calcomp drives feed their power through the 44-pin > connector). There is less of a standard form factor ((i.e. floppy > slots and latch positions are not usually the same from manufacturer > to manufacturer). Power connectors can be significantly different. Those are less of an issue I suppose; it's just cabling and mounting and power routing! I'm more worried about signal incompatibilities, I suppose. > Forget about using a hard-sector drive with a 765-type controller. > It doesn't work that way. Get a Catweasel if you want to do those. Sure. I'm actually going to hunt out a decent Northstar Horizon when I'm back in the UK; I wonder how easy it would be to hook up an 8" drive to one of those (and whether anyone's already written any serial-port data transfer software to use one as a way of getting data off 8" disks onto modern media)? cheers Jules From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 13 13:53:00 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:53:00 -0400 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <200703131837.l2DIaThl055744@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000c01c765a0$d2dbee70$6500a8c0@barry> 8" drives do exist in both hard and soft sector formats, but soft-sector is overwhelmingly dominant (probably more than 97%). There is only one rotational speed (360RPM), and they all have 77 tracks. Some have one side, some have two sides. But after that, all hell breaks loose, because the density as well as both the number of sectors per track and the sector size can take on almost any values (and some formats have track 0 in single density with all other tracks in double density). Sector size can be any of 128, 256, 512 or 1024 bytes per sector, and the number of sectors is also not well standardized. Some early drives will not interface to a 765 well; later drives should not be a problem. However, the western digital chips had more flexibility and can do formats that the 765 cannot do. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 13:53:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:53:53 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F6F341.9070200@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 12, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Adam Goldman wrote: >> The Internet used to have a number of useful features that it no longer >> does today -- for example, the finger and talk protocols. These protocols >> no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security reasons. > > Hmm, that's an interesting assertion: > > apophis$ which finger > /bin/finger > apophis$ which talk > /bin/talk > > ...looks to me like they're still there. The issue's more that in today's security-paranoid atmosphere firewalls tend to have everything apart from a few basic services (like HTTP and SMTP) blocked. So the binaries are still there and reasonably widespread - you just can't use 'em :( Heck, it's scary how many IT admins don't even know that Usenet exists, despite a news posting often being a far more efficient way of finding out information than using the web. From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Mar 13 13:57:47 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:57:47 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070313044316.GA6907@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> References: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org>, <003701c76517$fa789c50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <20070313044316.GA6907@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <200703131857.l2DIvlV3024444@mail.bcpl.net> On 13 Mar 2007 at 0:43, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Dave, just use a mirror, for example: > > computer-refuge.org:/bitsavers Pat, I do use FTP on computer-refuge, as I'm sure you know from my prior communications to you when your server quits talking. :-) However, two points of concern: 1. You are the only FTP mirror, so if you go away, FTP access goes away. (The mirror at zerkalo.curie.fr gives a "550 no such directory" error when accessed via the link at bitsavers.org.) 2. There's an inevitable mirroring delay between the time that Al says, "It's up on bitsavers" and it becomes available on a mirror. I surely appreciate your hosting an FTP mirror of bitsavers, and I use it with some regularity, but I'd be happier still if bitsavers hosted one itself too. -- Dave From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 13 14:02:16 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:02:16 -0500 Subject: HP items on Gov Liquidation 2645A 79XX Disk / Tape References: <1e1fc3e90703131123n20e0fa2ew83ecf8925b8c4093@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <020401c765a2$1dff81e0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Glen wrote... > 2645A (bad screen rot) Oh wow, I thought my DG "E.T. head" terminal had the worst case of that I'd ever seen... this one gives it a run for the money! > 7900? disk drive Yup, it's a 7900A that's externally in good condition. These drives are becoming somewhat rare. > 1631D Looks like a good set of pods with it! > 7980 tape drive I recognize the particular green tag on top. It means "sent in to repair depot" (a repair depot in the military, not to HP). It may mean the device was awaiting repair and was never repaired. It may mean the device was repaired and never returned. Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 13 14:17:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:17:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <45F6D203.7060901@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 13, 7 11:32:03 am Message-ID: <m1HRCUi-000J12C@p850ug1> > > > As hinted at in another post a few days ago, I'd like to add an 8" drive (or > possibly more than one if necessary) to my Imagedisk machine in order to be > able to archive 8" media. > > My knowledge of 8" drives is practically non-existent, so what are the gotchas > involved? Things like: > > Do 8" drives exist in both hard and soft sector variants? Is one far more > common than the other (as with 5.25")? YEs, but it's not a big problem. The hard sectored drives include a little circuit to separate the index and sector pulses, it can normally be 'jumpered out'. > > Do 8" drives exist with wildly different track counts (40, 77, 80 etc.) and > again is any one particular flavour far more common than the others? All common 8" drives are 77 cylinder. I can well believe others were made, but I've yet to see one. > > Are there any problems with some particular drives that'll make interfacing > them to a '765 type FDC more difficult? The biggest problem (and it only applies to writing) is the TG43 signal. This is s signal that is Asserted _by the controller_ when the head is closse to the spidnle that cylinder 43 (The name is Track Greater than 43, of course). It's used to reduce the write current. A few drives generate it internally. There have been various solutioned mentioned here (using a PIC to count step pulses, etc, for exampe) to generate it. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Mar 13 14:40:20 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:40:20 -0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070313163508.V57091@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <002201c765a7$72a099a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Andrew Back wrote: > I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI > network, and bury this pesky Internet. HEPNET was an OSI network at one point wasn't it? DEC missed the boat on burying this pesky Internet (or at least the TCP/IP on which it rests) so you'll have to just put up with it for the forseeable future! Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 12/03/2007 19:19 From ken at seefried.com Tue Mar 13 14:52:41 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:52:41 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703131839.l2DIcRZ8055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703131839.l2DIcRZ8055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070313195241.24018.qmail@seefried.com> From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> >On Mar 12, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Adam Goldman wrote: >> These protocols >> no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security reasons. > > Hmm, that's an interesting assertion: > >apophis$ which finger >/bin/finger >apophis$ which talk >/bin/talk > > ...looks to me like they're still there. > He said "exist on the Internet". As someone who looks at such things for a living, he's right for all practical purposes. N.B. - "Practical purposes" means something more than "a couple of cc'ers doing it for nostalgia". From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 13 14:54:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:54:09 -0700 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <45F6F238.2050405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45F6D203.7060901@yahoo.co.uk>, <45F677B3.11391.4C7AEDB9@cclist.sydex.com>, <45F6F238.2050405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F69EF1.24466.4D1437DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Mar 2007 at 13:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > Generally-speaking I suppose I can just mess around with jumpers in the short > term if there's anything I need to change between reads for different formats; > maybe in the longer term there's a project to add parallel port control to > ImageDisk and twiddle certain bits under software control, which can then be > used to do various things :-) Typically, one can leave the jumpers set one way for any given installation; the only time you'll ever need to change them is for hard- and soft-sectored operation--and then, your installation is likely to change also. Yes, you can disable the onboard FM separator--it's usually not the best implementation anyway--just a couple of one-shots. > Those are less of an issue I suppose; it's just cabling and mounting and power > routing! I'm more worried about signal incompatibilities, I suppose. If you want to be safe, stay away from the very early models. Some early drives require 3-phase stepper signals, for example. Some, such as PerSci have a buffered seek and so return SEEK COMPLETE\; some, such as the CDC BR803's don't have a READY\ line. Innovex also has a MEDIA UNSAFE\ line. Some, such as the aforementioned-CDC, don't use a DIRECTION\+STEP\ protocol, but rather separate STEP IN\ and STEP OUT\ lines. As I mentioned, early Japanese drives (NEC, Mitsubishi) can be real connundrums to puzzle out. Tony mentioned the bit about TG43\. If you're just reading, this doesn't matter--and some drives take care of things internally. Stick with a late-model Shugart 850-compatible drive and you'll be okay. Cheers, Chuck From erik at baigar.de Tue Mar 13 15:06:23 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:06:23 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" (fwd) Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703132032490.11962-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Hi Roger, I am sorry, I just discovered a new "feature" of the PEC - so please ignore the "divide data" of the last email. Perhaps you can explain this. My test porgram for the DIV was implented as loop using the index register (B) to save the results to the core as follows: load values DIV/MUL load index register from pointer store accu to core with index move Q to accu load index register from pointer store accu to core with index increment pointer do next values And I noticed, that loading the index register (B) influences the Q register! In the abouve example my multiply failes, too. If I do it in the following way: load values DIV/MUL store accu to core-tmp move Q to accu load index register from pointer store accu to core with index load accu from core-tmp load index register from pointer store accu to core with index increment pointer do next values Than the MUL works as desired (with 0x23 as memory operand): Akku before: 001 005 010 020 050 100 120 150 200 500 fff Q before: fff 500 200 150 120 100 050 020 010 005 002 Akku after: 000 000 000 000 001 004 004 005 008 015 fff Q after: 023 0af 230 460 2f0 300 760 5f0 600 700 7dd Especially, you can see, that 0x50*0x23 leads to 0x12f0 which is caused be the fact, that bit 11 is not used in the shift operations and thus bit11 of Q is not valid and the MUL is in fact 11bit*11bit unsigned. So now let's repeat the experiment with the "DIV" instruction using the proper code (again memory operand is 0x23): Akku after: 03b 125 3a9 751 ff5 f43 f23 ef1 e3f b31 fc5 Q after: 01d 092 1d4 3a8 7fa 7a1 791 778 71f 598 7e2 Still I cannot see the divide instruction behind these numbers. Now I an sure, that the framework is OK since I checked it with the logic analyzer. Below I show you the list file of my assembler, do you think, this helps in out communication or would you prefer to get listings in your 8/23 you kindly explained in your last email. It would not be a problem to teach my assembler to generate such output, too. Best regards and good evening, Erik. LISTING OF DIV-Test: 13 @ 0019 ORG 0 ; 14 @ 0020 ; 15 @ 0021 0000 023 data: DW 0x23 ; 16 @ 0022 0001 000 Index: DW 0 ; 17 @ 0023 0002 FF3 Counter: DW 0xfff-12 ; 18 @ 0024 0003 000 a1: DW 0 ; 19 @ 0025 0004 000 b1: DW 0 ; 20 @ 0026 ; 21 @ 0027 ORG 0x20 ; 22 @ 0028 ; 23 @ 0029 0020 001 accu: DW 0x1 ; 24 @ 0030 0021 005 DW 0x5 ; 25 @ 0031 0022 010 DW 0x10 ; 26 @ 0032 0023 020 DW 0x20 ; 27 @ 0033 0024 050 DW 0x50 ; 28 @ 0034 0025 100 DW 0x100 ; 29 @ 0035 0026 120 DW 0x120 ; 30 @ 0036 0027 150 DW 0x150 ; 31 @ 0037 0028 200 DW 0x200 ; 32 @ 0038 0029 500 DW 0x500 ; 33 @ 0039 002A FFF DW 0xfff ; 34 @ 0040 ; 35 @ 0041 ORG 0x30 ; 36 @ 0042 ; 37 @ 0043 0030 FFF ssr: DW 0xfff ; 38 @ 0044 0031 500 DW 0x500 ; 39 @ 0045 0032 200 DW 0x200 ; 40 @ 0046 0033 150 DW 0x150 ; 41 @ 0047 0034 120 DW 0x120 ; 42 @ 0048 0035 100 DW 0x100 ; 43 @ 0049 0036 050 DW 0x50 ; 44 @ 0050 0037 020 DW 0x20 ; 45 @ 0051 0038 010 DW 0x10 ; 46 @ 0052 0039 005 DW 0x5 ; 47 @ 0053 003A 002 DW 0x2 ; 48 @ 0054 ; 49 @ 0055 ORG 0x50 ; 50 @ 0056 ; 51 @ 0057 0050 000 resultACCU: DW 0 ; 52 @ 0058 ; 53 @ 0059 ORG 0x60 ; 54 @ 0060 ; 55 @ 0061 0060 000 resultSR: DW 0 ; 56 @ 0062 ; 57 @ 0063 ORG 160 ; Programmstart 58 @ 0064 ; 59 @ 0065 ; ----------------------------------------------------------------- 60 @ 0066 ; 61 @ 0067 00A0 001 reset: LDI Index ; 62 @ 0068 00A1 430 LDA ssr ; 63 @ 0069 00A2 EA0 MATSR ; 64 @ 0070 00A3 001 LDI Index ; 65 @ 0071 00A4 420 LDA accu ; 66 @ 0072 00A5 D00 DW 0b0110100000000 ; DIV? 67 @ 0073 00A6 503 STA a1 ; 68 @ 0074 00A7 E20 MSRTA ; 69 @ 0075 00A8 504 STA b1 ; 70 @ 0076 00A9 001 LDI Index ; 71 @ 0077 00AA 560 STA resultSR ; 72 @ 0078 00AB 403 LDA a1 ; 73 @ 0079 00AC 001 LDI Index ; 74 @ 0080 00AD 550 STA resultACCU ; 75 @ 0081 00AE A01 INC Index ; 76 @ 0082 00AF A02 INC Counter ; 77 @ 0083 00B0 990 RJAN reset ; 78 @ 0084 00B1 800 stop: RJMP stop ; 79 @ 0085 ; 80 @ 0086 ORG 4095 ; Freeze to prevent jump-over 81 @ 0087 0FFF 800 looi2: RJMP looi2 ; in free running mode From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 15:12:30 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:12:30 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk Viewer In-Reply-To: <200703092233.l29MXfcn029797@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703092233.l29MXfcn029797@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703131312m324b385bsd47c4f92e8153fee@mail.gmail.com> On 3/9/07, Dave Dunfield <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote: > Necessity has been inventing again .... > Would you consider adding an option to pause while writing when Track 43 is reached? (Or would you consider that too much of a hack?) Does ImageDisk step through the tracks just once when writing? I need to cable up an 8" drive to a PC to image some disks and create some other disks. I know there are various ways to control the TG43 signal electronically, but how about just using a toggle switch to assert the signal, if you know when to toggle it? -Glen From ken at seefried.com Tue Mar 13 15:12:38 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:12:38 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703131647.l2DGkEO7052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703131647.l2DGkEO7052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070313201238.24420.qmail@seefried.com> From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> >It's a shame that there wasn't a widely-adopted data transfer protocol that >was truly bi-directional. True, though there are and have been many good not-so-widely adopted solutions. >Both FTP and HTTP largely revolve around moving data >in one direction only. Even given the predominant client/server model of the >time, it's a shame that the "main" protocols weren't designed with the >foresight that one day we might want to move just as much stuff *to* >a site as we were taking *from* it. Client/server is still essentially the model for the vast majority of internet use: it's almost all asymmetric. As in, depending on the site, 100 to 1000 times or more as much data going one way than the other. Even profiling sites like YouTube, where people actually do upload large amounts of data, individual clients download far more. HTTP was designed for the common case in it's problem space. It shouldn't be surprising that it's not optimal for other cases. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 13 16:12:03 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:12:03 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070313195241.24018.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200703131839.l2DIcRZ8055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070313195241.24018.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070313151139.07271840@mail> At 01:52 PM 3/13/2007, Ken Seefried wrote: >He said "exist on the Internet". As someone who looks at such things for a living, he's right for all practical purposes. >N.B. - "Practical purposes" means something more than "a couple of cc'ers doing it for nostalgia". Time for a Classic Computer darknet where 'finger' and 'whois' are again supported. Because, after all, we're a well-behaved lot. Just see how we get along on the mailing list. :-) - John From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Mar 13 15:16:34 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <21013499.1173816994526.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> As a slightly more helpful remark, if you don't mind I'll download these >> and recode as a couple of different formats. Personally I recommend Ogg >> Theora, because it's an entirely free as in (beer|speech) format, with >> picture quality and compression roughly equivalent to MPEG4. > >It is nowhere near equivalent to MPEG4 (disclaimer: I am a video >compression author/nerd). But yes, it is free. But hardly anything >will play it. > >If you want cross-platform, there really is no choice other than MPEG >(MPEG-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4). I have yet to see convincing arguments for >formats other than those for simple media distribution. > >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ When I get around to making some more (and better) videos, where I can actually take my time and do some good stuff, I will post them to my web site in both MPEG-4(.mp4) and MPEG-1(.mpg). The MPEG-4 seems to have much better compression than any of the other 5 or 6 formats I've tried. .WMV seems to be comparable, but is more Microsoft oriented. Now, back to my original question.... Are there any particular things that people would like me to video? My system is a PDP-11/40 with RK05, RL01, RL02, RX01, RX02, VT05, VT52, VT100, LA36, LA120, ASR33. I also have a couple TU56 units but have not yet hooked them up to the 11/40. It may be another year before I am in the mood to boot up my system and do this kind of thing. I get distracted by lots of other things this time of year with spring planting, etc. I just know that it would have been helpful for me to see visuals of some things back when I was putting my system together. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 13 15:25:05 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070313151139.07271840@mail> from John Foust at "Mar 13, 7 03:12:03 pm" Message-ID: <200703132025.l2DKP509012890@floodgap.com> > Time for a Classic Computer darknet where 'finger' and 'whois' > are again supported. Because, after all, we're a well-behaved lot. I run finger. It may not be fingerd, but you *can* finger @floodgap.com. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Five is a sufficiently close approximation to infinity. -- Robert Firth ---- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 15:29:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:29:38 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070313151139.07271840@mail> References: <200703131839.l2DIcRZ8055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070313195241.24018.qmail@seefried.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070313151139.07271840@mail> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703131329n2e3b3eccn72bb23903e0021c6@mail.gmail.com> On 3/13/07, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote: > At 01:52 PM 3/13/2007, Ken Seefried wrote: > >N.B. - "Practical purposes" means something more than "a couple of cc'ers doing it for nostalgia". > > Time for a Classic Computer darknet where 'finger' and 'whois' > are again supported. finger over DECnet? ;-) -ethan From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 13 15:28:19 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:28:19 -0400 Subject: baud modifier Message-ID: <01C7658C.BB96D680@mse-d03> ----------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:24:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> Subject: Re: baud modifier In addition to the speed, are the protocols the same? For example, if you were to just slow down a Bell 212 (1200 bps) modem to 300 bts per second while still using the same frequencies and encoding, that would NOT enable a Bell 103 to be able to communicate. It would ALSO be necessary to switch the encoding to a FSK using the Bell 103 frequencies. I could certainly feed 10 characters per second through a V.90. But that would NOT provide the CCITT V.18? protocol needed for most 110 baud devices. --------------Reply: And then there may be the little matter of RS-232 <> current loop conversion... m From andy at smokebelch.org Tue Mar 13 15:41:24 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:41:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <002201c765a7$72a099a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <002201c765a7$72a099a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <20070313202914.G55018@plum.flirble.org> On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: >> I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI >> network, and bury this pesky Internet. > > HEPNET was an OSI network at one point wasn't it? > > DEC missed the boat on burying this pesky Internet (or at least > the TCP/IP on which it rests) so you'll have to just put > up with it for the forseeable future! Well it wouldn't be a replacement as such, but I was thinking of setting up a L2 peer-to-peer network on top of said pesky network, so we folks with VMS can run DECnet and the likes and use VMSmail and 'set host' etc. I've set this up between my house and workshop using ethernet-over-ip via two OpenBSD routers. And just recently discovered a Linux tool called uvlan that looks like it would do a similar job and require much less config. The thing putting me off setting up some kind of peering point is that I only have ADSL connections. But then ye olde VAXen would have had 9.6K links in places. Although I guess if literally bridging ethernet between sites would need to be careful of broadcasts. I also need to get to grips with OSI / DECnet Phase V area routing. Would be nice to be able to play around with this stuff though, and properly use the X.400 MTA & X.500 DSA you get licensed via OpenVMS Hobbyist. Andrew > Antonio > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: > 12/03/2007 19:19 > > > From john at guntersville.net Tue Mar 13 15:55:18 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:55:18 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <002201c765a7$72a099a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <20070313202914.G55018@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45F70FB6.450558CE@guntersville.net> Andrew Back wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > > Andrew Back wrote: > >> I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI > >> network, and bury this pesky Internet. > > > > HEPNET was an OSI network at one point wasn't it? > > > > DEC missed the boat on burying this pesky Internet (or at least > > the TCP/IP on which it rests) so you'll have to just put > > up with it for the forseeable future! > > Well it wouldn't be a replacement as such, but I was thinking of setting > up a L2 peer-to-peer network on top of said pesky network, so we folks > with VMS can run DECnet and the likes and use VMSmail and 'set host' etc. > I've set this up between my house and workshop using ethernet-over-ip via > two OpenBSD routers. And just recently discovered a Linux tool called > uvlan that looks like it would do a similar job and require much less > config. > Check out what the Hobby Decnet bunch are doing. http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > The thing putting me off setting up some kind of peering point is that I > only have ADSL connections. But then ye olde VAXen would have had 9.6K > links in places. Although I guess if literally bridging ethernet > between sites would need to be careful of broadcasts. I also need to > get to grips with OSI / DECnet Phase V area routing. > > Would be nice to be able to play around with this stuff though, and > properly use the X.400 MTA & X.500 DSA you get licensed via OpenVMS > Hobbyist. > > Andrew > > > Antonio > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: > > 12/03/2007 19:19 > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 13 14:31:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:31:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <45F6F238.2050405@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 13, 7 01:49:28 pm Message-ID: <m1HRCiO-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > Some drives have an onboard FM data separator. > > Indeed - I think I've come across that before. For drives that have it, can it > typically be disabled? Normally, you can just ignore it. You still get the 'raw' bitstream on one pin of the interface connector, it's just that the drive tries to do a clock/data serparation assuming it's an FM stream at the standard rate and sends out the sepearated clock and data on 2 other pins. So just use the first, raw, data pin. -tony From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Mar 13 16:15:10 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:15:10 +0000 Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <200703131839.l2DIcRZD055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703131839.l2DIcRZD055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <DA4F4629-A9E5-43C5-A1F5-4A97CE8FA4DA@microspot.co.uk> > >>>>>> 13 Divide >>>>> HMMM, the command takes very long but the results are >>>>> very strange. I thought it might be some type of >>>>> random number generation by an irreducible polynomal, >>>>> but it is definitively not Divide. Maybe here is something >>>>> different or wrong with the microcode. >>>> This divides a signed DOUBLE LENGTH number in the A and Q registers >>>> by a signed memory operand. IIRC the A register gets the result and >>>> the Q register the remainder. >>> OK, I will verify this in the coming days. Now I >>> know what to look form but according to my records >>> the results of this command always have been junk. > > Did the experiment on the real unit: > > Memory operand had always value 0x003, executed > several of the (with index register zero at > the start) broken-divide: > > Akku before: 001 005 010 020 050 100 120 150 200 500 fff > Q before: fff 500 200 150 120 100 050 020 010 005 002 > > Akku after: 2ab d55 ff5 fe5 fb5 f05 ee5 eb5 e05 b05 d57 > Q after: 000 000 001 001 002 002 003 003 004 004 005 Hmm, difficult to spot a pattern, but then with these large 24 bit values you will be getting overflow when dividing by such a small number and try to fit the result into a 12 bit register. I would try with a much larger number as the memory operand, say 0x100. Another thing you can try is using the 12 order to do a multiply and then using the 13 order to do a divide by the same memory operand and see if you get anything like the numbers you started with. > > So honestly speaking I cannot see the system behind > these numbers ;-) In repeating the experiment I get > the same numbers. Changing the memory operand to > 0x234 I get the following: > > Akku after: 003 013 03b 075 123 3a1 415 4c5 743 f2f ffd > Q after: 000 000 001 001 002 002 003 003 004 004 005 > > So... ...big questionmark ... Ah that's better. Except I still can't see any pattern except that the Q register is counting up every other time. I wonder if it is doing one step in the division each time and you are supposed to loop and stop when Q reaches a certain value. This would improve maximum interrupt latency. But you say this order takes a long time. Maybe it is just broken as you thought. I'll see what I can come up with. > >>> "MTA - Move To Accu" is one of two "two-read-cycles" >>> instructions. Up to now I did not fugire out, what >>> the other instruction does with the data read. Do >>> you remember any "two-read" instructions in the Elliotts? >> Only the instruction I invented. The first word had the address of a > Hey, you where active in the design of these beasts! > Really great! So I am proud, that you join this > discussion so actively! > >> a call without lots of special literals. We reused /3 I think, anyway >> the original instruction was corrupt the Q Register with B-Line >> indexing, but B-Line indexing corrupted the Q register at the start >> of the instruction, so a totally useless opcode. > Interesting story! In my opinion and in modern > times using VHDL to implement everything into hardware > very easy, the true heroes are the people like you > who implemented microcode with the solder iron or > the hand wired type of core-ROM! Really great! Actually I was employed a junior programmer and eventually became responsible for the Coral 66 compiler and utility software for the 920. Later on I became a 'Senior Systems Engineer' and made some suggestions to the engineers here and there. I really learned about hardware as a hobby with my ICT1301 mainframe. After I left I designed interface cards for micros and my most complex hardware design was a NuBus card for the Macintosh which could transfer up to 64k of data to wide format Versatec Plotters at a million BYTES a second without any intervention from the CPU (i.e. by Direct Memory Access). While that was going on the CPU was imaging the next chunk of data to be sent. It had to be real time because if the plotter ran out of data it would stop and the liquid toner would soak into the paper and spoil the image. > >>>> I suspect the big plug is for the OMP (Operator's Monitor >>>> Panel), and >>> Some kind of blinking-light console? Something like >>> this exists for the Rolm 1666b, too. This would be >>> cool to have! ;-) >> Yes, but these were of course much rarer than the computers >> themselves. > > Sniff... > >> For a level 1 interrupt when the processor is on level 2, it stores >> the SCR in location 2, and the B in location 3. Then it loads the SCR >> from location zero and the B from location 1. > That is a clever concept and should be easy to detect. > So I will have to do some hardware work in supplying the > signals to the appropriate lines and than I will be > able to test this hypothesis. Good. > >>> BTW: Have there been timers on the Elliotts you >>> know about? >> Yes bit not within the CPU box. > Ah OK, so there is some kind of external data bus on the > Elliotts. In the case of PEC it consists of a multiplexed > open collector bus with a strobe line: address is > applied, than the strobe line is set low by the CPU. > Shortly afterwards address is removed by the CPU again > and the memory unit applies the data to the bus if > read is compite and signalizes this to the CPU. This > bus runs quite stable even with the 75cm of ribbon > cable of my setup attached to it. The shortest instructions > which read only onw word are executed within 1.2us > independent of the value of the index register. Yes the CPU and some memory was in one box and extra memory in others, and lots of peripherals too. Not commercial things of course, things like compasses, gyros, special digital radio receivers and transmitters, custom keyboards and vector and raster monitors, chart recorders and much more. > >> No, when I started working for Elliotts, all computers were out of my >> reach, but then I was offered an old mainframe (which originally cost >> 247,000 pounds, for scrap value, 150 pounds). It was built in 1962. I >> now have two of them in a barn at home. LOTS of lights and switches, >> each has a card reader, card punch, line printer and one has a paper >> tape reader and punch. Oh they both have drum stores and ten track >> magnetic tape. > Wow - that is a really great setup!!!! Do you > have got any photos???? How much space offered > the drum memory?? Recently I saw a card reader > in action at the cray-cyber.org and I know that > this is really great stuff!! A chap who used to be a service engineer on my computer many years ago contacted a while back and kindly agreed to help me bring my computer back into a useable state. He has a web site describing the project, and there are some pictures of him and my machine at http:// ict1301.co.uk/13010510.htm . The rotary switches can be used to put data into registers, including the three instruction registers, so you can enter programs from the keys if all else fails. The green squares have four indicators in each one, so can display one decimal digit (it is primarily a decimal machine, 12 digits * 4 bits) The machine can be run at full speed, or at three instructions per second, or at one instruction per keypress, or at three clock cycles per second or at one clock cycle per keypress. There are 6 tape decks see http://web.onetel.com/~rodritab/mtani.htm The bigger picture of a complete machine is here: http:// ict1301.co.uk/13012006.htm though it is actually a model and has the earlier one inch tape decks. An actual machine is the lower picture at : http:// www.milsom100.freeserve.co.uk/1301/1301f.htm Oh for all that space! I have two machines in less space they use for one. Mind you one of mine is not assembled. It makes taking pictures very difficult. Roger. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 13 17:26:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:26:17 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <21013499.1173816994526.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <21013499.1173816994526.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <45F72509.8090107@jetnet.ab.ca> Ashley Carder wrote: > > When I get around to making some more (and better) videos, where I > can actually take my time and do some good stuff, I will post them to > my web site in both MPEG-4(.mp4) and MPEG-1(.mpg). The MPEG-4 seems to > have much better compression than any of the other 5 or 6 formats I've > tried. .WMV seems to be comparable, but is more Microsoft oriented. Well I better upgrade windows media player --- sigh. > Now, back to my original question.... > Are there any particular things that people would like me to video? > My system is a PDP-11/40 with RK05, RL01, RL02, RX01, RX02, VT05, > VT52, VT100, LA36, LA120, ASR33. I also have a couple TU56 units > but have not yet hooked them up to the 11/40. Playing the the TTY version ... Boy the fans on the PDP-11 is loud, one can hardly hear the TTY. What hardware is running? > It may be another year before I am in the mood to boot up my system > and do this kind of thing. I get distracted by lots of other things > this time of year with spring planting, etc. > > I just know that it would have been helpful for me to see visuals > of some things back when I was putting my system together. > > Ashley > http://www.woffordwitch.com Thanks for the downloads ... Only another 24 meg to for the windows media upgrade... I remember when you could install Windows/95 from floppy. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 13 17:00:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:00:56 -0400 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation "Mostly DecStuff" In-Reply-To: <200703131327.24514.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200703131647.l2DGkEO5052990@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200703131327.24514.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <84078C3C-7084-4ED1-B861-37DDEC4CEA88@neurotica.com> On Mar 13, 2007, at 1:27 PM, Francesca Smith wrote: >> Lightning strikes. Chance favors the prepared mind. Or at least the >> obsessive mind with time on its hands. I have a stack of nine-tracks >> I bought at the university surplus that must've stayed in limbo from >> a department I once worked at - at least fifteen years before. >> >> I looked at the stack on the shelf at the sale and said to myself, >> why, those look just like the ones we used to use... and I reached >> for them, and they were. A few bucks and they were mine. >> Soon after, a list member helped me read them. They were a set >> of RSTS backups from when I was working there. > > Cool to me it was like catching time in a bottle. Getting to the > files I > worked with perhaps will bring me back in a small way to those > days. You > never know how much you miss something till its gone. I really did not > appreciate those early awkward days until much later in life. I know *exactly* how you feel! Restoring the old backups from my first PDP-11 (RSTS/E) and flipping through those files...it was a very powerful experience. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Mar 13 17:10:05 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:10:05 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <6369286.1173823805949.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> When I get around to making some more (and better) videos, where I >> can actually take my time and do some good stuff, I will post them to >> my web site in both MPEG-4(.mp4) and MPEG-1(.mpg). The MPEG-4 seems to >> have much better compression than any of the other 5 or 6 formats I've >> tried. .WMV seems to be comparable, but is more Microsoft oriented. >Well I better upgrade windows media player --- sigh. I think the MP4 files play on my system in QuickTime, which I got either from Apple's web site or with my iPod. >> Now, back to my original question.... >> Are there any particular things that people would like me to video? > >Playing the the TTY version ... Boy the fans on the PDP-11 is >loud, one can hardly hear the TTY. What hardware is running? All that background noise is from: * the small fans (5 ot 6?) in the 11/40 chassis * the big fans in the top of the H960 racks * the blowers in the THREE RK05 drives * some minor sound from the two RL02s and the RL01 * some minor humming from the two DecWriters >Thanks for the downloads ... > Only another 24 meg to for the windows media upgrade... >I remember when you could install Windows/95 from floppy. Yeah I remember that too. And I remember when you could install all of RSTS onto a 2.5mb RK05 pack.... and support 16 users on the system.... well, we did have a second RK05 drive for some overflow. :-) Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Mar 13 17:18:56 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:18:56 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation Message-ID: <17899552.1173824336663.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >>> I looked at the stack on the shelf at the sale and said to myself, >>> why, those look just like the ones we used to use... and I reached >>> for them, and they were. A few bucks and they were mine. >>> Soon after, a list member helped me read them. They were a set >>> of RSTS backups from when I was working there. >> >> Cool to me it was like catching time in a bottle. Getting to the >> files I >> worked with perhaps will bring me back in a small way to those >> days. You >> never know how much you miss something till its gone. I really did not >> appreciate those early awkward days until much later in life. > > I know *exactly* how you feel! Restoring the old backups from my >first PDP-11 (RSTS/E) and flipping through those files...it was a >very powerful experience. > > -Dave Ditto that. <RAMBLE> I had saved all of my PDP-11 stuff from 1978 on a buggy RK05 pack that started having problems mounting back in 1978. Several of us pooled our money back then to pay about $100 for that refurbished pack. It seemed like a fortune, but we were tired of saving our programs on paper tape on the ASR-33. After the pack started having problems, we were forbidden to ever mount it again on our college's system. My friends and I carried it around and traded it back and forth for 26 years. One time one of the guys wanted to turn it into a wall clock. I quickly took it to my house. Then one day I got a PDP-11/40. Then I got an RK05 drive that worked. Then in 2004, I attempted to mount my old RK05 pack by typing MOUNT DK1:JEFF. The system responded with READY. My heart was beating fast!. I did DIR DK1:(*,*)*.* and it printed the directory of the entire pack, exactly as we left it back in 1978. I managed to salvage everything from that pack to disk images on my PC. As Dave said, it was a powerful experience. </RAMBLE> Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 18:02:57 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:02:57 -0600 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:25:56 -0500. <000b01c7651f$50a439c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <E1HRG1B-0002eJ-00@xmission.xmission.com> Be forewarned... you'll be going up against me on this one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From paul at frixxon.co.uk Tue Mar 13 18:12:17 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:12:17 +0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703131857.l2DIvlV3024444@mail.bcpl.net> References: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org>, <003701c76517$fa789c50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <20070313044316.GA6907@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> <200703131857.l2DIvlV3024444@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <45F72FD1.1010709@frixxon.co.uk> J. David Bryan wrote: > On 13 Mar 2007 at 0:43, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> Dave, just use a mirror, for example: >> >> computer-refuge.org:/bitsavers > > Pat, I do use FTP on computer-refuge, as I'm sure you know from my prior > communications to you when your server quits talking. :-) However, two > points of concern: > > 1. You are the only FTP mirror Not any more. You can now use bitsavers.vt100.net as well. > 2. There's an inevitable mirroring delay between the time that Al says, > "It's up on bitsavers" and it becomes available on a mirror. That delay is under 24 hours. -- Paul From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 18:12:25 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:12:25 -0600 Subject: HP items on Gov Liquidation 2645A 79XX Disk / Tape In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:23:57 -0700. <1e1fc3e90703131123n20e0fa2ew83ecf8925b8c4093@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1HRGAL-0000c1-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <1e1fc3e90703131123n20e0fa2ew83ecf8925b8c4093 at mail.gmail.com>, "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com> writes: > Close Time: 03/22/2007 > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=1161597 > Warner Robins, GA 31098 > > 1304A > 2645A (bad screen rot) > 7900? disk drive > 85 This is one of those lots that screams out "local inspection" because the lot includes multiple units of each and you can bet they're not all in the same condition. For instance 4 2645As -- do they all have screens that are delaminating their safety shield? Sometimes you think the guys at govliq are taking pictures of the worst individual in each lot, or maybe they just don't care to take pictures of all the units in a bundle. Ditto for the HP-85, there are 4 of those in this lot. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 18:14:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:14:15 -0600 Subject: HP items on Gov Liquidation 2645A 79XX Disk / Tape In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:02:16 -0500. <020401c765a2$1dff81e0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <E1HRGC7-0005ek-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <020401c765a2$1dff81e0$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes: > > 7980 tape drive > I recognize the particular green tag on top. It means "sent in to repair > depot" (a repair depot in the military, not to HP). It may mean the device > was awaiting repair and was never repaired. It may mean the device was > repaired and never returned. Is there a way to tell from looking at the tag? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 18:38:23 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:38:23 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! In-Reply-To: <005101c76519$4f1c9710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <1024083.13578967.297713191.21.22@ientrynetwork.net> <5dc6fd9e0703101813h385ef12amf7ee3c6b70e83083@mail.gmail.com> <45F3E794.1090300@gjcp.net> <005101c76519$4f1c9710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703131638j4828cbe9v3d0357d50b078c3c@mail.gmail.com> On 3/12/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Yup, the last thing we need are ads for credit card terminals tossed in > here. My apologies Gordon (and list), I didn't catch it :\ > > Jay > > > > Sorry guys, I didn't mean to spam the list...I simply thought it might be something of interest to the list since it was a terminal of sorts...but now I know it's not a type of terminal anyone here finds of interest and I will not be mentioning any others I may for one reason or another come upon in the future...sorry, won't happen again From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Mar 13 18:50:50 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:50:50 -0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070313202914.G55018@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <003801c765ca$6f472080$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Andrew Back wrote: > Well it wouldn't be a replacement as such, but I was thinking of > setting up a L2 peer-to-peer network on top of said pesky network, so > we folks with VMS can run DECnet and the likes and use VMSmail and > 'set host' etc. I've set this up between my house and workshop using > ethernet-over-ip via two OpenBSD routers. And just recently > discovered a Linux tool called uvlan that looks like it would do a > similar job and require much less config. If you are running DECnet-Plus (i.e. DECnet/OSI) then you can use IP as a transport layer, so you won't need to do any funny ethernet-over -IP stuff. (This is just like doing RFC 1006). If you are running the Multinet IP stack then it can tunnel DECnet (Phase IV). At least I _think_ it is Multinet that can do that (certainly one of the 3rd party ones can). Or, within your own site/home, you could just run a pair of real routers that can handle DECnet-Plus! That all being said, VMSmail can certainly send and receive over IP (and X.25 and anything else you care to write a mail transport for). As for X.400, I think my first "critical" bug fix involved MRX, although the details are currently lost in my notebooks. So I think that's enough Mailbus to last me a lifetime! Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 12/03/2007 19:19 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 13 18:53:30 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:53:30 -0500 Subject: HP items on Gov Liquidation 2645A 79XX Disk / Tape References: <E1HRGAL-0000c1-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <002801c765ca$cef8a7b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > For instance 4 2645As -- do they all have > screens that are delaminating their safety shield? >From past experience - very very likely. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 13 18:55:23 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:55:23 -0500 Subject: HP items on Gov Liquidation 2645A 79XX Disk / Tape References: <E1HRGC7-0005ek-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <003301c765cb$144ee630$6700a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > Is there a way to tell from looking at the tag? I'd have to go see if I still have any from the last shipment of eleven 2108 cpus that came through my workshop. As I recall, it was basically a statement of where from, and what the problem was. So, the answer is "no". Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 13 18:56:14 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:56:14 -0500 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay References: <E1HRG1B-0002eJ-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <003601c765cb$309a1800$6700a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > Be forewarned... you'll be going up against me on this one. Do I detect a throwing down of the gauntlet? ;) Jay From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 18:57:28 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:57:28 -0600 Subject: HP items on Gov Liquidation 2645A 79XX Disk / Tape In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:53:30 -0500. <002801c765ca$cef8a7b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <E1HRGrw-0004Ju-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <002801c765ca$cef8a7b0$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes: > Richard wrote.... > > For instance 4 2645As -- do they all have > > screens that are delaminating their safety shield? > >From past experience - very very likely. Yet non-delaminating units seem to regularly show up on ebay in the past couple of years. That's why I say physical inspection of these govliquidation lots is a good bet unless you're willing to lowball it and just take a chance. But then you'd have to arrange shipping... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 19:17:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:17:05 -0600 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:56:14 -0500. <003601c765cb$309a1800$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <E1HRHAv-0006YD-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <003601c765cb$309a1800$6700a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes: > Richard wrote... > > Be forewarned... you'll be going up against me on this one. > Do I detect a throwing down of the gauntlet? ;) Its no secret that I'm a freak about terminals... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 19:20:55 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:20:55 -0700 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay In-Reply-To: <E1HRHAv-0006YD-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <003601c765cb$309a1800$6700a8c0@BILLING> <E1HRHAv-0006YD-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703131720p227b4c20o57b84aae3ea830a4@mail.gmail.com> On 3/13/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > Its no secret that I'm a freak about terminals... What do you currently have in your collection? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Mar 13 20:30:14 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:30:14 -0800 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay In-Reply-To: <000b01c7651f$50a439c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000b01c7651f$50a439c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45F75026.5080506@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > > Pretty much defines retro-computing-beauty. > Jay, you need this for your reality system. It is a perfect Adds 580, and much smaller too. I won't be bidding, since I have one :-) couldn't resist, sorry. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 19:39:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:39:00 -0600 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:20:55 -0700. <1e1fc3e90703131720p227b4c20o57b84aae3ea830a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1HRHW8-0004Cx-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <1e1fc3e90703131720p227b4c20o57b84aae3ea830a4 at mail.gmail.com>, "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com> writes: > On 3/13/07, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > Its no secret that I'm a freak about terminals... > > What do you currently have in your collection? Mostly from memory as I am out of town at the moment... ADM-3A ADM-5 (2) HP 2621A HP 2621P HP 2397A HP 2648A (2) Tektronix 4010 Tektronix 4014 Tektronix 4105 (6?) Tektronix 4205 (8?) Televideo 925 Televidoe Personal Terminal H/Z-19 VT100 LA120 Teletype 43 C.Itoh CIT-100 Cromemco branded Beehive B-100 Westinghouse W1643 party line Honeywell VIP7809 IBM 3180 Megatek Whizzard 1645 (B&W) Megatek Whizzard (color) Texas Instruments Silent 700 Model 707 Texas Instruments Silent 700 Model 745 Basic/Four Random Colleague NCD16 X terminals (4) HP 700/RX X terminal Tektronix X terminal (2) NCD Xplora -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 19:40:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:40:09 -0600 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:30:14 -0800. <45F75026.5080506@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <E1HRHXF-0000Yr-00@xmission.xmission.com> Jay's paltry bid of $50 has already been exceeded :-) And I haven't even bid yet. Get your wallet out if you're serious about this one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 13 20:17:45 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:17:45 -0500 Subject: HP items on Gov Liquidation 2645A 79XX Disk / Tape References: <E1HRGrw-0004Ju-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <005f01c765d6$92eada20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > Yet non-delaminating units seem to regularly show up on ebay in the > past couple of years. That's why I say physical inspection of these You're not that familiar with these particular terminals are you ;) Jay From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 20:22:39 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:22:39 -0600 Subject: HP items on Gov Liquidation 2645A 79XX Disk / Tape In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:17:45 -0500. <005f01c765d6$92eada20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <E1HRICN-0003xL-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <005f01c765d6$92eada20$6900a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes: > Richard wrote... > > Yet non-delaminating units seem to regularly show up on ebay in the > > past couple of years. That's why I say physical inspection of these > You're not that familiar with these particular terminals are you ;) I used 'em in 1978. I've watched for them on ebay, etc. I've purchased a few in the past couple years. That's the extent of my familiarity. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 13 20:24:34 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:24:34 -0500 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay References: <E1HRHXF-0000Yr-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <007601c765d7$86ae91b0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > Jay's paltry bid of $50 has already been exceeded :-) > > And I haven't even bid yet. Get your wallet out if you're serious > about this one. That's what's known as a place holder bid Richard. I wanted to see if other people are serious. I'll let you have it if you want it. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 13 20:26:33 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:26:33 -0500 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay References: <E1HRHW8-0004Cx-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <007f01c765d7$cd386e30$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote.... > Mostly from memory as I am out of town at the moment... > ...snip... I envisioned a much larger number of items :> J From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 20:28:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:28:46 -0600 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:24:34 -0500. <007601c765d7$86ae91b0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <E1HRIII-0004bY-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <007601c765d7$86ae91b0$6900a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes: > Richard wrote... > > Jay's paltry bid of $50 has already been exceeded :-) > > > > And I haven't even bid yet. Get your wallet out if you're serious > > about this one. > That's what's known as a place holder bid Richard. I wanted to see if other > people are serious. Well that's just going to get you flamed by people on here who insist that you are some kind of moron if you bid more than once. > I'll let you have it if you want it. Oh, I definately do :-). 1970s terminals are hard to come by. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 13 20:29:53 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:29:53 -0500 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay References: <000b01c7651f$50a439c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45F75026.5080506@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <008601c765d8$44515270$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > you need this for your reality system. It is a perfect Adds 580, > and much smaller too. I know where there's a ADDS regent & console term. I could pick one of those up. But for my Reality I'd certainly prefer a PRISM. I'll have to offer something up that's particularly choice to pry one of the PRISM's from your hands wouldn't I :) > I won't be bidding, since I have one :-) You're evil ;) Jay From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 13 20:59:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:59:22 -0800 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <m1HRCUi-000J12C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <BAY138-F5B3A5B3072F5B61C67FD1A3730@phx.gbl> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: 8" drive variations >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:17:02 +0000 (GMT) > > > > > > > As hinted at in another post a few days ago, I'd like to add an 8" drive >(or > > possibly more than one if necessary) to my Imagedisk machine in order to >be > > able to archive 8" media. > > > > My knowledge of 8" drives is practically non-existent, so what are the >gotchas > > involved? Things like: > > > > Do 8" drives exist in both hard and soft sector variants? Is one far >more > > common than the other (as with 5.25")? > >YEs, but it's not a big problem. The hard sectored drives include a >little circuit to separate the index and sector pulses, it can normally >be 'jumpered out'. > ---snip--- Hi The only time this gets in the way is when you have a hard sectored controller that needs to see composite index and sectors. Most all of the hard sectored controllers I've seen, require the composite. These are like the H89/H8, Polymorphic 8813 and N*. For those that just need the index, like soft sectored, the separator isn't a problem. For most micro cases that I know of, the separator is a problem ( including my Nicolet 1080 ). These need the raw composite to see both index and sector marks together. The biggest issue I see is density and number of sides. As I recall, the two sided have a different location for the index hole( at least I think it is the sides, not density ). The SA800 and SA900's are single sided single density drives. On soft sectored, the size of your sectors is up to you. You just have to make sure that the gap sizes are enough to not overlap and that they are wide enough that the write enable turns off soon enough, from the controller, to not overlap the next sector. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 13 21:54:36 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:54:36 -0700 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay References: <000b01c7651f$50a439c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45F763EE.FF3D572@cs.ubc.ca> Jay West wrote: > > This is not only a very rare terminal, it is in absolutely gorgeous > condition. Heck it would be gorgeous even if it was beat up & dirty. But > it's rather pristine. Bet this goes for real money.... > > http://tinyurl.com/2xalbc > > Pretty much defines retro-computing-beauty. > > Jay West Do you think they really get 80*24 on that little screen as the text says or is the text confusing different models? (Not going to bid, just wondering.) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 13 21:55:45 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:55:45 -0700 Subject: SWTPC craze References: <E1HPrjY-00010J-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45F76433.87F015DD@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > > Clearly SWTPC is a brand that is just as desirable as CompuColor. > > ebay Item # 190088674069 > > CT-64 terminal with minor case damage and no matching monitor. > > 12 bids, closed at $625.25 > > Another item out of my price range... Granted that as many on the list have said, one can't take ebay prices as generally indicative but: holy smokes! I picked a derelict/beat-up CT-64 out of the surplus/discard pile about 10 years ago. Cleaned up and rewired it's in excellent condition. I know you're interested in anything terminal, Richard, but I have to say from a strictly functional perspective you're not missing anything. The display on those things isn't exactly rock-solid. I don't think it's just the unit I have, rather that the timing is derived from multiple independant RC circuits. Which probably makes it interesting from another perspective... From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 13 21:56:09 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:56:09 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <002201c765a7$72a099a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <45F7644B.334DAE71@cs.ubc.ca> Andrew Back wrote: > I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI > network, and bury this pesky Internet. arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > DEC missed the boat on burying this pesky Internet (or at least > the TCP/IP on which it rests) so you'll have to just put > up with it for the forseeable future! Ohhh noooo ... OSI and X.400 ... For a good portion of the 80's I worked on a project developing an X.400 mail system & OSI stack. X.400 received a lot of attention back then as it was supposed to be (or become) the international standard for email transfer. I was out of that by the late 80's when the Internet was 'opened' and rolled over everything. I now think of that period as the era of the protocol wars. arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > HEPNET was an OSI network at one point wasn't it? In the mid 80's I think it was mostly DECNET and SNA, reflecting the machines/systems installed at the participating organisations. Some of those orgs/nodes used our X.400 system, so there was some OSI in there. I have no idea what happened after 1988 or so, though, although I wouldn't be surprised if they always had it in mind to migrate to international standards. Andrew Back wrote: >Would be nice to be able to play around with this stuff though, and >properly use the X.400 MTA & X.500 DSA you get licensed via OpenVMS >Hobbyist. On a similar note to Francesca's message about one's old data turning up years later, a little while ago I asked a friend working at a local university if they had any 9-track tapes still kicking around as I could use some spares/scratch tapes. He took me to a storage room filled with a several shelves of them and said take your choice. Looking over the reels I saw a distribution tape from 1987 for the X.400 system I worked on, complete with source code. (There were also some BSD unix dists from the 80's in there.) So if I ever get a system to read the tape and run the X.400 system, and if there is a common network level to agree on we could do some old-school international-standard email networking ... <pause> ... on the other hand I'm not entirely sure I want to go (back) there. From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 22:29:13 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:29:13 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703132029u6de3a937vc6bbb1eb23fd0b30@mail.gmail.com> On 3/12/07, Adam Goldman <adamg at pobox.com> wrote: > > The Internet used to have a number of useful features that it no longer > does today -- for example, the finger and talk protocols. These protocols > no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security reasons. > > > it's still very much around... NAME *finger* -- user information lookup program SYNOPSIS *finger* [*-46glmpshoT*] [*user* *...*] [*user at host* *...*] DESCRIPTION The *finger* utility displays information about the system users. Options are: *-4* Forces *finger* to use IPv4 addresses only. *-6* Forces *finger* to use IPv6 addresses only. *-s* Display the user's login name, real name, terminal name and write status (as a ``*'' before the terminal name if write permission is denied), idle time, login time, and either office location and office phone number, or the remote host. If *-o* is given, the office location and office phone number is printed (the default). If *-h* is given, the remote host is printed instead. Idle time is in minutes if it is a single integer, hours and min- utes if a ``:'' is present, or days if a ``d'' is present. If it is an ``*'', the login time indicates the time of last login. Login time is displayed as the day name if less than 6 days, else month, day; hours and minutes, unless more than six months ago, in which case the year is displayed rather than the hours and minutes. Unknown devices as well as nonexistent idle and login times are displayed as single asterisks. *-h* When used in conjunction with the *-s* option, the name of the remote host is displayed instead of the office location and office phone. *-o* When used in conjunction with the *-s* option, the office location and office phone information is displayed instead of the name of the remote host. *-g* This option restricts the gecos output to only the users' real name. It also has the side-effect of restricting the output of the remote host when used in conjunction with the *-h* option. *-l* Produce a multi-line format displaying all of the information described for the *-s* option as well as the user's home directory, home phone number, login shell, mail status, and the contents of the files *.forward*, *.plan*, *.project* and *.pubkey* from the user's home directory. If idle time is at least a minute and less than a day, it is pre- sented in the form ``hh:mm''. Idle times greater than a day are presented as ``d day[s]hh:mm''. Phone numbers specified as eleven digits are printed as ``+N-NNN- NNN-NNNN''. Numbers specified as ten or seven digits are printed as the appropriate subset of that string. Numbers specified as five digits are printed as ``xN-NNNN''. Numbers specified as four digits are printed as ``xNNNN''. If write permission is denied to the device, the phrase ``(mes- sages off)'' is appended to the line containing the device name. One entry per user is displayed with the *-l* option; if a user is logged on multiple times, terminal information is repeated once per login. Mail status is shown as ``No Mail.'' if there is no mail at all, ``Mail last read DDD MMM ## HH:MM YYYY (TZ)'' if the person has looked at their mailbox since new mail arriving, or ``New mail received ...'', ``Unread since ...'' if they have new mail. *-p* Prevent the *-l* option of *finger* from displaying the contents of the *.forward*, *.plan*, *.project* and *.pubkey* files. *-m* Prevent matching of *user* names. *User* is usually a login name; however, matching will also be done on the users' real names, unless the *-m* option is supplied. All name matching performed by *finger* is case insensitive. *-T* Disable the piggybacking of data on the initial connection request. This option is needed to finger hosts with a broken TCP implementation. If no options are specified, *finger* defaults to the *-l* style output if operands are provided, otherwise to the *-s* style. Note that some fields may be missing, in either format, if information is not available for them. If no arguments are specified, *finger* will print an entry for each user currently logged into the system. The *finger* utility may be used to look up users on a remote machine. The format is to specify a *user* as ``user at host'', or ``@host'', where the default output format for the former is the *-l* style, and the default output format for the latter is the *-s* style. The *-l* option is the only option that may be passed to a remote machine. If the file *.nofinger* exists in the user's home directory, *finger* behaves as if the user in question does not exist. The optional *finger.conf(5)* configuration file can be used to specify aliases. Since *finger* is invoked by *fingerd(8) <http://www.hmug.org/man/8/fingerd.php>*, aliases will work for both local and network queries. ENVIRONMENT The *finger* utility utilizes the following environment variable, if it exists: FINGER This variable may be set with favored options to *finger*. FILES /etc/finger.conf alias definition data base /var/log/lastlog last login data base SEE ALSO *chpass(1) <http://www.hmug.org/man/1/chpass.php>*, *w(1) <http://www.hmug.org/man/1/w.php>*, *who(1) <http://www.hmug.org/man/1/who.php>*, *finger.conf(5)*, *fingerd(8) <http://www.hmug.org/man/8/fingerd.php>* D. Zimmerman, *The* *Finger* *User* *Information* *Protocol*, RFC 1288, December, 1991. HISTORY The *finger* command appeared in 3.0BSD. BUGS The current FINGER protocol RFC requires that the client keep the connec- tion fully open until the server closes. This prevents the use of the optimal three-packet T/TCP exchange. (Servers which depend on this requirement are bogus but have nonetheless been observed in the Internet at large.) NAME *talk* -- talk to another user SYNOPSIS *talk* *person* [*ttyname*] DESCRIPTION *Talk* is a visual communication program which copies lines from your ter- minal to that of another user. Options available: *person* If you wish to talk to someone on your own machine, then *person* is just the person's login name. If you wish to talk to a user on another host, then * person* is of the form `user at host'. *ttyname* If you wish to talk to a user who is logged in more than once, the *ttyname* argument may be used to indicate the appropriate terminal name, where *ttyname* is of the form `ttyXX'. When first called, *talk* sends the message Message from TalkDaemon at his_machine... talk: connection requested by your_name at your_machine. talk: respond with: talk your_name at your_machine to the user you wish to talk to. At this point, the recipient of the mes- sage should reply by typing talk your_name at your_machine It doesn't matter from which machine the recipient replies, as long as his login-name is the same. Once communication is established, the two parties may type simultaneously, with their output appearing in separate windows. Typing control-L `^L' will cause the screen to be reprinted, while your erase, kill, and word kill characters will behave normally. To exit, just type your interrupt character; *talk* then moves the cursor to the bottom of the screen and restores the terminal to its previous state. Permission to talk may be denied or granted by use of the *mesg(1) <http://www.hmug.org/man/1/mesg.php>* com- mand. At the outset talking is allowed. Certain commands, in particular *nroff(1)<http://www.hmug.org/man/1/nroff.php> * and *pr(1) <http://www.hmug.org/man/1/pr.php>*, disallow messages in order to prevent messy output. FILES /etc/hosts to find the recipient's machine /var/run/utmp to find the recipient's tty SEE ALSO *mail(1)<http://www.hmug.org/man/1/mail.php> *, *mesg(1) <http://www.hmug.org/man/1/mesg.php>*, *who(1)<http://www.hmug.org/man/1/who.php> *, *write(1) <http://www.hmug.org/man/1/write.php>* BUGS The version of * talk(1) <http://www.hmug.org/man/1/talk.php>* released with 4.3BSD uses a protocol that is incompatible with the protocol used in the version released with 4.2BSD. HISTORY The *talk* command appeared in 4.2BSD. 4.2 Berkeley Distribution June 6, 1993 4.2 Berkeley Distribution ------------------------------ Mac OS X 10.4 - Generated Fri Apr 29 07:01:07 CDT 2005 BSD July 22, 2002 BSD ------------------------------ Mac OS X 10.4 - Generated Fri Apr 29 06:57:11 CDT 2005 From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 22:30:33 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:30:33 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703132029u6de3a937vc6bbb1eb23fd0b30@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <5dc6fd9e0703132029u6de3a937vc6bbb1eb23fd0b30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703132030v10cd433bs7c3011bbd7183862@mail.gmail.com> so can someone please provide me their list of vintage archives that still exist? please? I'd really like to help archive these vintage archives before they're gone and can't do that without knowing where they are :-( ...thanks! :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 22:50:13 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:50:13 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F72FD1.1010709@frixxon.co.uk> References: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> <003701c76517$fa789c50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20070313044316.GA6907@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> <200703131857.l2DIvlV3024444@mail.bcpl.net> <45F72FD1.1010709@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703132050u61fc9297x518e9660727e3b24@mail.gmail.com> so can someone please provide me with their list of still online vintage archives? I'd really like to help archive the vintage archives before they're gone forever but can't do that without knowing where they are :-( ...thanks! :-) From doug at stillhq.com Tue Mar 13 23:22:49 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:22:49 +1100 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation In-Reply-To: <200703131839.l2DIcRZC055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703131839.l2DIcRZC055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45F77899.506@stillhq.com> > >Cool to me it was like catching time in a bottle. Getting to the files >I worked with perhaps will bring me back in a small way to those days. >You never know how much you miss something till its gone. I really did >not appreciate those early awkward days until much later in life. > Yep, I recently brought back to life a Z80 based "Pulsar Little Big Board" STD bus CP/M system - It was surprising the lack of bit rot that the system had suffered since 1986, when I moved to my shiny new XT. In any case, there were all of my old projects in all of their glory - That got me going, and I spent an entire weekend moving data from various older archive format (from 360K 5.25" disks, to QIC-02 tapes) onto spinning platters... I found huge numbers of projects from firms that I worked for that no longer exist - And even remembered that I was actually paid (in $$$) to write pascal code... Never would have believed that! Backups are much more regular now days, and all onto optical media - as well as onto raid disks, so it is unlikely that they will be lost again. -- Doug Jackson, MAIPM, MIEEE Senior Information Security Consultant EWA-AUSTRALIA PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 http://www.ewa-australia.com ============================================ IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). ============================================ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Mar 14 00:30:30 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:30:30 -0800 Subject: speaking of terminals...beauty is up on ebay In-Reply-To: <45F763EE.FF3D572@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000b01c7651f$50a439c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45F763EE.FF3D572@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45F78876.1070408@msm.umr.edu> Brent Hilpert wrote: >Jay West wrote: > > > >Do you think they really get 80*24 on that little screen as the text says >or is the text confusing different models? (Not going to bid, just wondering.) > > The unit has a button to flip between 80 and 40 column on the portable. the regent could do the same as well, but I don't recall if it could do it with a button or not. the 80x24 on mine was crystal clear. good luck to richard this really is a nice terminal, and his will be cleaner than mine, since it is in storage right now. Jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 14 02:07:01 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:07:01 -0800 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <003801c765ca$6f472080$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003801c765ca$6f472080$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <p0624082dc21d40b206ff@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:50 PM +0000 3/13/07, <arcarlini at iee.org> wrote: >If you are running DECnet-Plus (i.e. DECnet/OSI) then you can use IP >as a transport layer, so you won't need to do any funny ethernet-over >-IP stuff. (This is just like doing RFC 1006). To the best of my knowledge no one has this going on HECnet, so it's going to be hard to find someone to talk to. >If you are running the Multinet IP stack then it can tunnel DECnet >(Phase IV). >At least I _think_ it is Multinet that can do that (certainly one of the >3rd party ones can). Yes, Multinet is what I use, which reminds me.... My area router is down... OK, that was more fun than expected, but now that it's up, the following link shows what nodes are currently online. Be warned it takes a couple minutes to update. http://www.avanthar.com:8080/nodes/ One of these days I'm going to rewrite this so that it periodically polls and puts the info in a database. That way I can speed up the page access. >Or, within your own site/home, you could just run a pair of real >routers that can handle DECnet-Plus! At least one or two people on HECnet are using this for links. The majority though I think are using Johnny's link software. http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html >That all being said, VMSmail can certainly send and receive over >IP (and X.25 and anything else you care to write a mail transport for). I should hope it can send and receive over IP or else I'm doing something strange :^) I get a lot of my email direct to my VMS box, and only a couple messages have come to it via DECnet (HECnet). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 00:06:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:06:27 -0700 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <BAY138-F5B3A5B3072F5B61C67FD1A3730@phx.gbl> References: <m1HRCUi-000J12C@p850ug1>, <BAY138-F5B3A5B3072F5B61C67FD1A3730@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <45F72063.3929.4F0DD1A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Mar 2007 at 17:59, dwight elvey wrote: > The biggest issue I see is density and number of sides. As I > recall, the two sided have a different location for the index > hole( at least I think it is the sides, not density ). The SA800 > and SA900's are single sided single density drives. That's correct--DS media has the index aperture at about the 2 o'clock position, where SS media has the aperture at about 1 o'clock. Some drives will happily write and read both sides of SS media; others will disable access to the second side. All of which is why I said that a SA850-compatible drive will probably do the job just fine and have signals that a PeeCee controller can deal with. Cheers, Chuck From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 12:16:40 2007 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:16:40 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F6B44B.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <C21C8CF8.881D%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 13/3/07 14:25, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Jay West wrote: >> Ashley wrote.... >>> After that, I used a video converter program to convert from mp4 to mpg. >>> They apparently are different formats. >> The mpg extension doesn't (I don't THINK) designate mpg1, mpg2, mpg3, or >> mpg4. > > One trick I found, which I was surprised at, was that you seem to be able to > 'cat' several mpeg files together into one and a player will happily play the > entirety of the subsequent file. Weird; I mean most formats expect a single > header and some data, but mpeg seems to be able to cope just fine with lots of > header and data segments. But by cat-ing several mpegs together you DO end up with a single header, IIRC it's why the cat command exists in the first place, remember that all it does is concatenate multiples to a single. A side effect is that you specify a single file and no output designation it just streams the file contents to stdout so who needs a 'type' command? :) From info at harrells.net Tue Mar 13 17:50:23 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:50:23 -0400 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <m1HRCiO-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <m1HRCiO-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <45F72AAF.20007@harrells.net> If you have the old style found on Imsai like the calcomp drives then how would you use them on a shugart interface. Tony Duell wrote: >> > Some drives have an onboard FM data separator. >> >> Indeed - I think I've come across that before. For drives that have it, can it >> typically be disabled? >> > > Normally, you can just ignore it. You still get the 'raw' bitstream on > one pin of the interface connector, it's just that the drive tries to do > a clock/data serparation assuming it's an FM stream at the standard rate > and sends out the sepearated clock and data on 2 other pins. So just use > the first, raw, data pin. > > -tony > > From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 13 19:04:32 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:04:32 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! In-Reply-To: <005101c76519$4f1c9710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <1024083.13578967.297713191.21.22@ientrynetwork.net> <5dc6fd9e0703101813h385ef12amf7ee3c6b70e83083@mail.gmail.com> <45F3E794.1090300@gjcp.net> <005101c76519$4f1c9710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1173830672.10091.9.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-03-12 at 21:42 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Gordon wrote... > > Well, it appears to be some kind of credit card terminal. Not really the > > right kind of terminal at all. > > > > It's hard enough to keep spam off mailing lists like this without > > supposedly "trusted" users forwarding it in. > > Yup, the last thing we need are ads for credit card terminals tossed in > here. My apologies Gordon (and list), I didn't catch it :\ You don't need to apologise to me... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 13 19:04:57 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:04:57 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703131638j4828cbe9v3d0357d50b078c3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1024083.13578967.297713191.21.22@ientrynetwork.net> <5dc6fd9e0703101813h385ef12amf7ee3c6b70e83083@mail.gmail.com> <45F3E794.1090300@gjcp.net> <005101c76519$4f1c9710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5dc6fd9e0703131638j4828cbe9v3d0357d50b078c3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1173830697.10091.11.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 15:38 -0800, Hex Star wrote: > On 3/12/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Yup, the last thing we need are ads for credit card terminals tossed in > > here. My apologies Gordon (and list), I didn't catch it :\ > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > Sorry guys, I didn't mean to spam the list...I simply thought it might be > something of interest to the list since it was a terminal of sorts...but now > I know it's not a type of terminal anyone here finds of interest and I will > not be mentioning any others I may for one reason or another come upon in > the future...sorry, won't happen again Live and learn, eh? ;-) Gordon From guy.harrison at comcast.net Tue Mar 13 21:35:24 2007 From: guy.harrison at comcast.net (Guy Harrison) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:35:24 -0600 Subject: FOR SALE: TI-99/4A EXPANSION SYSTEM w/ SPEECH, RS232, TRIPLETECH Message-ID: <200703140135.l2E1ZlwN076319@keith.ezwind.net> I have a TI-99 system up for auction on eBay right now: link to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=230103019092> &Item=230103019092 clipped from auction listing: Enormous Texas Instruments TI-99/4a Expansion System! Base unit Includes: * TI-99/4a base unit, serial number 2340598 - LTA3082 * TI AC power adapter, model # AC9500 * TI Video Modulator, model #UM1381 * TI Wired Remote Controllers [joysticks], model #PHP1100 * TI Cassette Interface Cable, model #PHA2000 * PEC Electricord standard computer power cable, model #107-2 * Extra 300-75ohm switch box, part #003643 [no mfg mark] * Model #PHP100 owner's manual * Model #UM1381 owner's manual * Model #PHA2000 owner's manual * TI-99/4a User's Reference Guide * TI-99/4a Quick Start Guide Expansion System includes: * TI Peripheral Expansion System, Model #1200, serial# 409652 - HTA0883 * TI Peripheral Expansion System quick-remove case lid * TI Disk Memory System and Disk Memory Drive, model #PHP1240 & PHP1250 * TI 32Kx8 Memory Expansion, Model #1260 * TI serial extender ribbon cable, model #1050212-1 * TI Flex Cable Interface * Model #1200 owner's manual * Model #1240 owner's manual * Model #1250 owner's manual * Model #1260 owner's manual * CorComp RS 232 Serial Interface Card * CorComp TripleTech card w/ TI Speech Synthesizer card, model #PHP1500 installed! * CorComp RS232 owner's manual * CorComp TripleTech owner's manual * Model #PHP1500 owner's manual Peripherals included: * Personal Peripherals Super Sketch graphic input tablet, model #G2400 * Super Sketch instruction book * Super Sketch Starter Kit Software cartridges included: * A-Maze-Ing w/ book * Addition and Subtraction 2 w/ book * Alpiner w/ book * The Attack w/ book * Beginning Grammar w/ book * Blackjack and Poker w/ book * Blasto w/ book * Car Wars w/ book * Chisholm Trail w/ book * Disk Manager 2 [no book] * Early Learning Fun w/ book [X2] * Hangman w/ book * Hunt the Wumpus w/ book * Jawbreaker II / book * *MASH w/ book * *Microsurgeon w/ book * Multiplication 1 [Scott, Foresman] no book * Munch Man [Pac Man] w/ book * Parsec w/ book * Scholastic Spelling-Level 3 w/ book * Scholastic Spelling-Level 5 w/ book * *Superfly w/ book * Tax/Investment Record Keeping w/ book * TI Invaders [Space invaders] w/ book * TI Extended BASIC w/ 222 page programming manual & reference cards * Tombstone City w/ 2 books * Video Chess w/ book * Yahtzee w/ book * Cartridges marked with an asterisk are Solid State Speech Cartridges for use with the TI99 Speech Synthesizer, which IS included in this lot, installed on the CorComp TripleTech card. Cassette Software included: * **Draw Poker w/ book * **Personal Financial Aids w/ book * **Teach Yourself BASIC Part One w/ book * **Teach Yourself BASIC Part Two w/ book ** Cassettes marked with double asterisks are for use with a generic cassette tape player, which is NOT included in this lot. However, the Extended BASIC Command Module, also required for use with this software, IS included. Floppy Diskette Software included: * Andrew Tobias - Managing Your Money, 2 diskettes / no book * Endless Mt. Software - Par Fore / no book * R.A. Green - Macro Assembler / no book * Clint Pully - C99 Compiler / no book Software Suites included: * DataBioTics - Super Space II, 1 diskette & 1 Cartridge / no book * Microsoft - Multiplan, unused copy! SEE: Complete contents! * TI-Writer Word Processor. SEE: Book, binder, disk, cartridge. * TI Logo II. SEE: Book, binder, disk, cartridge and cassette. * Editor/Assembler - Book, binder, 2 disks, cartridge & quick-ref Books, catalogs and magazines included: * SAMS COMPUTERFACTS - Technical Service Data * Texas Instruments HomeComputer Program Library w/ Bill Cosby cover * Frederick Holtz - Using and Programming the TI-99/4A * Beginner's BASIC * Ralph Molesworth - Introduction to Assembly Language * Steve Davis - Programs for the TI Home Computer This lot also come with a 3M head cleaning diskette kit and a box of 10 unused Polaroid floppy diskettes: As you can imagine, this is going to be a very heavy lot. I weighed it at about 88 pounds! So check the shipping calculator to see the damage before you bid! I will allow pickup from Minneapolis by anybody who wants to avoid shipping charges. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 14 02:36:06 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:36:06 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F6F13F.3080805@oldskool.org> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> <45F6F13F.3080805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <D8CAA477-9A46-4B00-8447-CAC38C4AC832@neurotica.com> On Mar 13, 2007, at 2:45 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> apophis$ which finger >> /bin/finger >> apophis$ which talk >> /bin/talk >> ...looks to me like they're still there. > > Yes, actually try to use them across networks. There are these > funny little things on the outside of most organizations called > "firewalls", maybe you've heard of them. There is absolutely no need to be a smartass. I make a living running fairly large networks...and not for clueless organizations who depend on the crutch of a firewall to implement a secure network. I use "talk" fairly frequently, it works just fine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 14 02:39:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:39:34 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070313195241.24018.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200703131839.l2DIcRZ8055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070313195241.24018.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <905898A3-7C35-4FF8-9FF7-F9F0399E5874@neurotica.com> On Mar 13, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: >>> These protocols >>> no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security >>> reasons. >> >> Hmm, that's an interesting assertion: >> apophis$ which finger >> /bin/finger >> apophis$ which talk >> /bin/talk >> ...looks to me like they're still there. > > He said "exist on the Internet". As someone who looks at such > things for a living, he's right for all practical purposes. They work just fine if they're enabled. As someone who runs such things for a living, someone else's assertion that something "no longer exists" simply because it is no longer as common as it once was...well that's getting to be a bit annoying, and it's becoming more and more common around here. > N.B. - "Practical purposes" means something more than "a couple of > cc'ers doing it for nostalgia". I do it to communicate with my coworkers. Pretty much every day, I might add, and nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Man, the "blinders" are really bad around here lately. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 14 02:40:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:40:54 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F6F341.9070200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> <45F6F341.9070200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <ECC91EB1-1F3A-4321-9E8F-DAA440F953E2@neurotica.com> On Mar 13, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> /bin/finger >> apophis$ which talk >> /bin/talk >> ...looks to me like they're still there. > > The issue's more that in today's security-paranoid atmosphere > firewalls tend to have everything apart from a few basic services > (like HTTP and SMTP) blocked. So the binaries are still there and > reasonably widespread - you just can't use 'em :( I generally don't (and generally won't) use networks that I don't run, and I'm not a lazy or clueless admin...so I'm used to seeing things a bit more "open" and functional. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 14 02:42:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:42:20 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070313151139.07271840@mail> References: <200703131839.l2DIcRZ8055788@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070313195241.24018.qmail@seefried.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070313151139.07271840@mail> Message-ID: <95C02494-560A-4398-A80A-B10A18394620@neurotica.com> On Mar 13, 2007, at 5:12 PM, John Foust wrote: >> He said "exist on the Internet". As someone who looks at such >> things for a living, he's right for all practical purposes. >> N.B. - "Practical purposes" means something more than "a couple of >> cc'ers doing it for nostalgia". > > Time for a Classic Computer darknet where 'finger' and 'whois' > are again supported. Because, after all, we're a well-behaved lot. > Just see how we get along on the mailing list. :-) Yes. Every now & then (like today) I get really sick of the moronity, but the good still outweighs the bad, at least most of the time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Mar 14 02:44:18 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:44:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F70FB6.450558CE@guntersville.net> References: <002201c765a7$72a099a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <20070313202914.G55018@plum.flirble.org> <45F70FB6.450558CE@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <20070314074210.D55018@plum.flirble.org> On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, John C. Ellingboe wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: >> >> On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> >>> Andrew Back wrote: >>>> I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI >>>> network, and bury this pesky Internet. >>> >>> HEPNET was an OSI network at one point wasn't it? >>> >>> DEC missed the boat on burying this pesky Internet (or at least >>> the TCP/IP on which it rests) so you'll have to just put >>> up with it for the forseeable future! >> >> Well it wouldn't be a replacement as such, but I was thinking of setting >> up a L2 peer-to-peer network on top of said pesky network, so we folks >> with VMS can run DECnet and the likes and use VMSmail and 'set host' etc. >> I've set this up between my house and workshop using ethernet-over-ip via >> two OpenBSD routers. And just recently discovered a Linux tool called >> uvlan that looks like it would do a similar job and require much less >> config. >> > > Check out what the Hobby Decnet bunch are doing. > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html Thanks, was totally unaware of this. I was thinking of DECnet Phase V so you could support ISO apps like X.500, X.400, FTAM & VT. Some people there might be interested in this also though, so will get in touch. Andrew From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 14 02:45:23 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:45:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <21013499.1173816994526.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <21013499.1173816994526.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <91FDD9D4-7478-400A-B589-EF26FC083812@neurotica.com> On Mar 13, 2007, at 4:16 PM, Ashley Carder wrote: > Now, back to my original question.... > Are there any particular things that people would like me to video? > My system is a PDP-11/40 with RK05, RL01, RL02, RX01, RX02, VT05, > VT52, VT100, LA36, LA120, ASR33. I also have a couple TU56 units > but have not yet hooked them up to the 11/40. Performing basic system operations like toggling in a bootstrap, loading and swapping disk packs, etc would be good to document in full-motion video. Functional minicomputers of this sort are becoming less and less common, and so more and more people will never get to see one or see what it was like to run one. If such videos get made and start floating around the net (dare I suggest a set of YouTube or Google Video submissions?), more people will get to see the wonder of these machines that most of us here take for granted. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 14 02:46:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:46:53 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070313202914.G55018@plum.flirble.org> References: <002201c765a7$72a099a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <20070313202914.G55018@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <D40BEF02-CA99-4124-90EA-311ED2C4D0E3@neurotica.com> On Mar 13, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Andrew Back wrote: >>> I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI >>> network, and bury this pesky Internet. >> >> HEPNET was an OSI network at one point wasn't it? >> >> DEC missed the boat on burying this pesky Internet (or at least >> the TCP/IP on which it rests) so you'll have to just put >> up with it for the forseeable future! > > Well it wouldn't be a replacement as such, but I was thinking of > setting up a L2 peer-to-peer network on top of said pesky network, > so we folks with VMS can run DECnet and the likes and use VMSmail > and 'set host' etc. It already exists. See: http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Mar 14 02:55:36 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:55:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <003801c765ca$6f472080$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003801c765ca$6f472080$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <20070314074436.O55018@plum.flirble.org> On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: > >> Well it wouldn't be a replacement as such, but I was thinking of >> setting up a L2 peer-to-peer network on top of said pesky network, so >> we folks with VMS can run DECnet and the likes and use VMSmail and >> 'set host' etc. I've set this up between my house and workshop using >> ethernet-over-ip via two OpenBSD routers. And just recently >> discovered a Linux tool called uvlan that looks like it would do a >> similar job and require much less config. > > If you are running DECnet-Plus (i.e. DECnet/OSI) then you can use IP > as a transport layer, so you won't need to do any funny ethernet-over > -IP stuff. (This is just like doing RFC 1006). But where is the fun in RFC1006? Would prefer to have native ISO CONS running direct atop layer 2 on the LAN rather than on top of IP. So you kinda have a real native network, and can play around with ISO routing. Or, are you saying you can configure IS-IS connections to tunnel via IP and have your ES-IS native ethernet? > If you are running the Multinet IP stack then it can tunnel DECnet > (Phase IV). > At least I _think_ it is Multinet that can do that (certainly one of the > 3rd party ones can). > > Or, within your own site/home, you could just run a pair of real > routers that can handle DECnet-Plus! Well that would be nice... > That all being said, VMSmail can certainly send and receive over > IP (and X.25 and anything else you care to write a mail transport for). Right, forgot VMSmail could use IP direct. Would be more fun it using an X.400 gateway and then X.400 MIXER gateway to get out to the Internet, and storing all the routing and address translation in X.500. > As for X.400, I think my first "critical" bug fix involved MRX, although > the details are currently lost in my notebooks. So I think that's enough > Mailbus to last me a lifetime! Hmm, I can imagine that must have been fun. Just using X.400 can be a steep-ish learning curve, and peering to another vendor's MTA 'interesting', especially if in some other ADMD you don't control and across over a public PSDN... Still, I think these systems and associated protocols also need preserving and using, and can be fun :o) Andrew From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Mar 14 03:21:45 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:21:45 -0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070314074436.O55018@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <004d01c76611$cf1beee0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Andrew Back wrote: > But where is the fun in RFC1006? Would prefer to have native ISO CONS > running direct atop layer 2 on the LAN rather than on top of IP. So > you kinda have a real native network, and can play around with ISO > routing. Or, are you saying you can configure IS-IS connections to > tunnel via IP and have your ES-IS native ethernet? Given the right equipment it's easy to configure a proper Phase V network. I don't think Routing ever made it onto OpenVMS VAX but I do think it made it into OpenVMS Alpha. Not sure about Digital Unix though. Then again WR90s and Routeabouts are common enough. If you like bigger, noiser hardware then DEMSA and DECnis are for you! > Right, forgot VMSmail could use IP direct. Would be more fun it using I forgot that the Message Router stuff (including MRX) also provided a VMSmail transport. > an X.400 gateway and then X.400 MIXER gateway to get out to the > Internet, and storing all the routing and address translation in > X.500. I think the very first time I used X.400 was configuring it as a customer. > Hmm, I can imagine that must have been fun. Just using X.400 can be a > steep-ish learning curve, and peering to another vendor's MTA > 'interesting', especially if in some other ADMD you don't control and > across over a public PSDN... My recollection (as a customer) was that either you were trying to peer 9as I was) to BT Gold, and they spoke a different language; or you were trying to peer to someone else who also didn't know what they doing (and spoke a different language) :-) > Still, I think these systems and > associated protocols also need preserving and using, and can be fun > :o) Even without additional hardware you can set up X.25 over LLC2 (ISO8889 IIRC) and pretend you have two systems separated by a PSDN. Then you can get MRX running on each of them. I currently have PSI on my VAXstation set up that way, although the other end (another VAXstation) is currently powered off. Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 12/03/2007 19:19 From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Mar 14 06:01:21 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:01:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <004d01c76611$cf1beee0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <004d01c76611$cf1beee0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <20070314105228.D39114@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: >> But where is the fun in RFC1006? Would prefer to have native ISO CONS >> running direct atop layer 2 on the LAN rather than on top of IP. So >> you kinda have a real native network, and can play around with ISO >> routing. Or, are you saying you can configure IS-IS connections to >> tunnel via IP and have your ES-IS native ethernet? I think I meant CLNS and not CONS, much as I love X.25 > Given the right equipment it's easy to configure a proper Phase V > network. > I don't think Routing ever made it onto OpenVMS VAX but I do think it > made it into OpenVMS Alpha. Not sure about Digital Unix though. > Then again WR90s and Routeabouts are common enough. If you > like bigger, noiser hardware then DEMSA and DECnis are for you! I know it's on Alpha 7.3-2, not check VAX 7.3 yet. >> Right, forgot VMSmail could use IP direct. Would be more fun it using > > I forgot that the Message Router stuff (including MRX) also provided > a VMSmail transport. Mmmm, message router. Need to have ALL-IN-ONE set up too :o) > My recollection (as a customer) was that either you were trying to peer > 9as I was) to BT Gold, and they spoke a different language; or you were > trying to peer to someone else who also didn't know what they doing > (and spoke a different language) :-) I've peered to BT Gold twice: once from Mailbus400, to replace an unreliable X.400 (1984) MR gateway based on some EOL DEC software (inc DDS - pre X.500 directory), and the second time using commercial Isode MTA. Although I also encountered the second problem you mentioned when I worked at boo.com doing EDI stuff and had to get FTAM on Solaris talking to a Deutsche Bank responder in Germany running on god-knows-what, via PSDN. I remember it involved lots of ISO traces, and X.25 traces and calls to BT and countless teams in DB. > Even without additional hardware you can set up X.25 over LLC2 (ISO8889 > IIRC) and pretend you have two systems separated by a PSDN. Then you > can get MRX running on each of them. I currently have PSI on my > VAXstation > set up that way, although the other end (another VAXstation) is > currently > powered off. Nice idea :o) Andrew From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 14 08:40:29 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:40:29 -0600 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:55:45 -0700. <45F76433.87F015DD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <E1HRTiP-0004fp-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45F76433.87F015DD at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> writes: > I picked a derelict/beat-up CT-64 out of the surplus/discard pile about 10 > years ago. Cleaned up and rewired it's in excellent condition. Dude. 10 years ago I don't know if this "hobby" was on anyone's radar. Did ebay even exist 10 years ago? At any rate, 10 years seems like such a long time for this hobby that I don't know how you could compare 10 years ago to now. > I know you're interested in anything terminal, Richard, but I have to say fro m > a strictly functional perspective you're not missing anything. Yeah, I know, but people are clearly not bidding on this for the functionality. Its the brand. This can be a double eded sword. For instance, my Beehive terminal is branded Cromemco and that's the *only* thing that kept it out of the hands of the scrappers. Cromemco is a brand near and dear to people's memories and Beehive is a "WTF is that?" brand (or worse, "what a POS!" brand) to most people. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 14 03:03:53 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:03:53 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F72509.8090107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <21013499.1173816994526.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <45F72509.8090107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1173859433.10091.13.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 15:26 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Ashley Carder wrote: > > > > > When I get around to making some more (and better) videos, where I > > can actually take my time and do some good stuff, I will post them to > > my web site in both MPEG-4(.mp4) and MPEG-1(.mpg). The MPEG-4 seems to > > have much better compression than any of the other 5 or 6 formats I've > > tried. .WMV seems to be comparable, but is more Microsoft oriented. > > Well I better upgrade windows media player --- sigh. Or use VLC. One of the things I've always found odd about Windows Media Player is that it doesn't really play much media... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 14 03:05:33 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:05:33 +0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703132029u6de3a937vc6bbb1eb23fd0b30@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <5dc6fd9e0703132029u6de3a937vc6bbb1eb23fd0b30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1173859533.10091.15.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 20:29 -0700, Hex Star wrote: > On 3/12/07, Adam Goldman <adamg at pobox.com> wrote: > > > > The Internet used to have a number of useful features that it no longer > > does today -- for example, the finger and talk protocols. These protocols > > no longer exist on the Internet, mostly due to valid security reasons. > > > > > > > > it's still very much around... > > NAME Was there a reason for posting an entire man page? Gordon From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Mar 14 09:34:40 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:34:40 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos Message-ID: <031420071434.26664.45F808000005DA260000682822007621949DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Get Media Player Classic from SourceForge instead. It can replace Windows Media Player, RealPlayer, and QuickTime Player. Bob Message: 3 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:26:17 -0700 From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11/40 videos To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45F72509.8090107 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed <snip>. Well I better upgrade windows media player --- sigh. <snip From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Mar 14 09:32:29 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:32:29 -0400 Subject: OSI networking (was Re: FTP) Message-ID: <s5f7cf45.071@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Andrew Back wrote: > I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI > network, and bury this pesky Internet. This is sort-of like taking the most virulent strain of smallpox there is, bottling it up, and then deciding what to do with it. Some things were cool and are worth saving and continuing to use. Certainly talk, finger, etc., all the wonderfully simple TCP/IP services fall into this category. Other things (OSI networking and its implementation in DECNET Phase V) should be preserved in the computer industry's equivalent of the Holocaust Museum, or the CDC's smallpox samples, lest we ever forget. They literally sucked and wasted billions of dollars of otherwise useful effort from projects that could've used creativity and simplicity rather than seven layers of crappy beauracracy on crappy beauracracy. Tim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 14 09:37:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:37:26 -0500 Subject: SWTPC craze References: <E1HRTiP-0004fp-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <001201c76646$498a4210$6700a8c0@BILLING> Brent wrote... >> I picked a derelict/beat-up CT-64 out of the surplus/discard pile about >> 10 >> years ago. Cleaned up and rewired it's in excellent condition. To which Richard replied.... > Dude. 10 years ago I don't know if this "hobby" was on anyone's radar. I beg to differ. There's quite a few listmembers here that were active in the hobby 10+ years ago. I'm also certain there were a good number of people doing it well over 10 years ago that still aren't on this list. A relative newcomer to the hobby wouldn't usually be aware of this. Just because this list wasn't around 15 years ago doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of people collecting. > Did ebay even exist 10 years ago? Yes, 1995 to be exact. > This can be a double eded sword. For instance, my Beehive terminal is > branded Cromemco and that's the *only* thing that kept it out of the > hands of the scrappers. Cromemco is a brand near and dear to people's > memories and Beehive is a "WTF is that?" brand (or worse, "what a > POS!" brand) to most people. I offer a slightly different view of that for consideration. I don't think it's a case of Cromemco being a brand near and dear... at least to the NON collectors that would be holding it in mid air making the pitch or sell decision. They probably never heard of Cromemco or Beehive either one. They just see an old terminal and say "wonder if I could sell that on ebay". I doubt the fact it was badged cromemco made much difference to the person that decided to put it on ebay. On a related note, I'm still clutching my "Beehive Medical Electronics Mini Bee Computer Terminal Operators Guide", wishing that some day the corresponding terminal would show up on my doorstep! Jay From jwest at ezwind.net Wed Mar 14 09:54:26 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:54:26 -0500 Subject: old terminals... Message-ID: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Ya know... this recent talk of terminals got me thinking..... It would be a good idea IMHO to preserve the functionality of all these classic old terminals. After all, sooner or later the real ones will disappear or at least stop working. After all, some systems are picky about only working with certain terminals (or some only work WELL with certain terminals)... Then I started thinking... most modernish "good" terminal emulation packages don't support all the old venerable classics. Sure, many do VT100 (sort of). But when was the last time you saw a terminal emulation package that faithfully reproduced a beehive minibee? Or a Heath H19? I think it might be helpful for the future if there was a "collectors" terminal emulation program that really did strive to get emulations for all the old terminals, and get it dead right. I know it'd be nice to have one emulator for my systems that "did the right thing(tm)" on my HP mini's, my DECs, DGs, and my Heathkits, GA Zebras, TI990's, etc. etc. all with one program. Instead I have to have many different terminal emulation programs (because one that does HP2624 emulation wont do my TI terminal emulation...)... or the real thing (which of course I'd prefer). So then my unix-centric brain said... Oh, well, there's always termcap/terminfo. Surely that will document old terminals for posterity and future emulation. So I just popped in to my local copy of terminfo and sure enough, there's even an entry for the beehive minibee and superbee. BUT... I then noted the comments that say "hey, this termcap entry is pretty wrong and doesn't work right". So relying on terminfo for preservation is probably not a great idea. But it's a start. Just thinking out loud... would be nice to have a terminal emulation program that was easily extensible for any terminal, already had all the ones defined that we here are familiar with... and ran on everything from MS/DOS to Vista to *nix. A classiccmp'ers terminal emulator :) Maybe a good start would be those of us that have particular terminals at least going in and correcting the terminfo entries that are incorrect. Perhaps this is a silly idea and I just need my morning coffee! Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 10:18:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:18:07 -0700 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <45F72AAF.20007@harrells.net> References: <m1HRCiO-000J0gC@p850ug1>, <45F72AAF.20007@harrells.net> Message-ID: <45F7AFBF.22308.513DCD5F@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Mar 2007 at 18:50, info wrote: > If you have the old style found on Imsai like the calcomp drives then > how would you use them on a shugart interface. Are you talking about a Calcomp 140? If so, I've got the information. One of the tricky things is that power comes in via the ribbon cable and the drive select is a little different. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 10:36:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:36:29 -0400 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <001201c76646$498a4210$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <E1HRTiP-0004fp-00@xmission.xmission.com> <001201c76646$498a4210$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703140836x165c59afwbad702bac52a1024@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Brent wrote... > >> I picked a derelict/beat-up CT-64 out of the surplus/discard pile about > >> 10 years ago. Cleaned up and rewired it's in excellent condition. > > To which Richard replied.... > > Dude. 10 years ago I don't know if this "hobby" was on anyone's radar. > > I beg to differ. There's quite a few listmembers here that were active in > the hobby 10+ years ago. I'm also certain there were a good number of people > doing it well over 10 years ago that still aren't on this list. I got my first "obsolete" machine in 1982, my next one in 1983, then 1984 (all older PDP-8s, naturally ;-) I've been fiddling with "collector" machines for nearly 25 years now. That long ago, one could argue that the "old" machines were thought of differently than they are now, but if your motivation isn't "I can sell this on eBay", things weren't that different after all. I remember seeing this PDP-8/L in the mud at a rainy Hamvention and marvelling at how many boards and TTL ICs were inside and thinking how cool it would be to get this old beast running. It took a few years, and I learned a lot, but I was right - it was pretty cool when it ran its first program (incrementing the AC to watch the lights blink). Getting it to echo chars on a VT220 via 20mA current loop was even cooler. That part of the hobby is unchanged for me - what has changed most, for me, is how much it costs to get old DEC gear cause it's "collectible". We just wanted to run it, not make money from it. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 14 11:40:47 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:40:47 -0800 Subject: ALL-IN-ONE (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <20070314105228.D39114@plum.flirble.org> References: <004d01c76611$cf1beee0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <20070314105228.D39114@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <p06240830c21dd46480ca@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:01 AM +0000 3/14/07, Andrew Back wrote: >Mmmm, message router. Need to have ALL-IN-ONE set up too :o) Warning, if you're serious, you might have an interesting time getting ALL-IN-ONE installed on a modern system (at least 7.3 or newer). I suspect you can do it, but that it will require reworking the installation. Does anyone happen to know how well it works on something like V8.3, and if it is possible to install on a current version of the OS? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 11:00:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:00:15 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! In-Reply-To: <1173830697.10091.11.camel@elric> References: <1024083.13578967.297713191.21.22@ientrynetwork.net>, <5dc6fd9e0703131638j4828cbe9v3d0357d50b078c3c@mail.gmail.com>, <1173830697.10091.11.camel@elric> Message-ID: <45F7B99F.16924.51646118@cclist.sydex.com> > On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 15:38 -0800, Hex Star wrote: > > Sorry guys, I didn't mean to spam the list...I simply thought it might be > > something of interest to the list since it was a terminal of sorts...but now > > I know it's not a type of terminal anyone here finds of interest and I will > > not be mentioning any others I may for one reason or another come upon in > > the future...sorry, won't happen again <sarcasm> ...and don't you ever forget it! This list doesn't want to talk about any of those stinkin' word processors, credit-card terminals or calculators--only REAL COMPUTERS! </sarcasm> Personally, I find little widgets with embedded processors fascinating. Consider a credit-card terminal--it has a modem, display, keyboard, can interface to a printer and most have some non- volatile memory. The difference between many word processors and general-purpose computers is one of nomenclature more than anything. Yet no one's really interested in them. An old Artec, CPT or AES WP box has the same basic components and vintage as most early microcomputer systems, but no one's interested in collecting them. Cheers, Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Wed Mar 14 12:06:28 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:06:28 -0500 Subject: New version of LisaEm up for downloads Message-ID: <45F82B94.3080103@arachelian.com> http://lisaem.sunder.net/downloads.html This includes OS X PPC, win32, Linux binaries, PDF documentation, as well as source code. I didn't get a chance to build the OS X Intel version, I'll do that tonight and post it up tomorrow. (Or you can just compile it yourself.) A ROM dumper will be available in about a week. (Thanks James!) Enjoy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LisaEm Known current Bugs for 2007.03.14 version ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Native printing is still broken * Serial port option TelnetD crashes/locks up * Skins on/off option sometimes needs to be forced. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lisa Emulator Change History http://lisaem.sunder.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2007.03.13 - found a fixed config bug: serial b options copied from port a. - added a switch to turn off power to the virtual Profile before power on. This allows you to prevent the boot ROM's Power on self test to automatically boot from the Profile. It's useful when you need to repair the Profile since it allows you to boot from "Lisa Office System 1/5" and then power on the Profile drive to repair the file system. 2007.03.11 - Proper BMP's are now generated for printing, conversion to PNG format works, but is a little bit off - background is gray, should be white as in paper white. - added command line ability to load preferences file when launching. i.e. ./lisaem ~ray/macworks.lisaem will open the macworks.lisaem preferences file from user ray's home. 2007.03.10 - getting closer on proper BMP generation for printing - added throttle setting to global preferences. - added ROM checksum failure warning on power on. If the ROM is broken, it can crash the emulator. 2007.03.09 - skins on/off added to Display menu. - found IW linefeed pixel bug (lack of initialization) 2007.03.08 - video modes are a bit smarter - if display size is too small, will refuse to change video modes and will instead switch to lower mode, or shut off skins. - re-enaled 2Y and 2X3Y video modes (skinless of course.) with checks for display size. - skin/less mode switch no longer requires restart of emulator. Extra space past display region is blackened to ameliorate window sizing bugs. - Preferences "Apply" button (was save in preview versions) closes Preferences window. 2007.03.06 - added skinless option (bug: size of window is too small/off). One blit less during skinless mode so it's a bit faster on older machines. - NMI key can be forced now. 2007.03.02 - Video mode, sound effects, asciikeyboard as globally saved prefs. - added Sound Effects checkbox. - debugging printing - somehow all pages show up black. 2007.03.01 - added NMI key to keyboard menu. 2007.02.28 - new IW code printouts sort of works. 2007.02.21 - Added Preferences panel for printer settings. 2007.02.20 - added size dialog box when creating profile (5/10MB, etc) 2007.02.18 - unified build.sh 2007.02.05 - I/O ROM version was getting clobbered by code in floppy.c to 0xA8 via a #define. 2007.02.03 - cheat_ram_test now a preference. - if starting without ROM, dialogbox is shown, then preferences are shown asking for config. - bug fix: after closing preferences, re-opening caused segfault. - finer speed control - much closer. 2007.02.02 - fixed floppy insert on power off - fixed floppy trapping on insert of non-DC42/bad disk image. - fixed "Clock is not set" dialog box - fixed ContrastTrails (linx/win32) 2007.02.01 - fixed raw kb entry - but CPU clock is still too fast. 2007.01.31 - fixed bug causing random crashes, mostly during LOS install. Was off-by-one array overflow related to ReDraw_* fn's. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Mar 14 11:15:17 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:15:17 +0100 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703092132s5f811a20g755a4676ffcaa16d@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070310000714.A81299@plum.flirble.org> <f4eb766f0703092132s5f811a20g755a4676ffcaa16d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070314171517.3d4cae08@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:32:59 -0500 "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > Did anyone on the list ever get that uVAX2000 SCSI mod working? We applied that hack to a VS2k at a geek meeting some years back. It kind of booted VMS. But VMS crashed during boot as it had no suitable disk drivers for the VS2k SCSI. Later I tried to boot NetBSD on my modified VS2k. It didn't work as the NetBSD boot loader doesn't understand the VS2k SCSI hardware. At least it got as far as loading the boot loader. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 14 11:19:04 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:19:04 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! Message-ID: <20070314161904.CYEV29413.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> There are several element of the phenomenon that reduces the collectability of embedded devices and things like word processors. For context, here are the characteristics that, for me, make a machine interesting: interesting hardware design, interesting software design, ability to do something cool/geeky with it, and the influence it had on other designs. So with that in mind here's why I think we see the phenomena that Chuck describes. > Personally, I find little widgets with embedded processors > fascinating. I suspect a lot of the problem is that they often aren't really so little. Many embedded devices are pretty much just a board unless they're connected to some other hardware, which is often so large that it inhibits collectability. Of course, no one here would turn down an AGC regardless of whether it was connected to a spacecraft. But most embedded systems only go so far without the other hardware. > The difference between many word processors and > general-purpose computers is one of nomenclature more than anything. Personally, I think this is exactly why they aren't very interesting. Because they are so much like a general-purpose system, they don't have a particularly interesting hardware design, almost by definition. Their software is usually not particularly interesting either. But you are captive in that software. You can't really do anything interesting with them, except type letters. And for the most part, they didn't have much influence on the rest of computing. So, there's not much to draw me, or I suspect a lot of others, to them. As in all matters of opinion, YMMV. I certainly don't condemn anyone who does find those interesting and wants to collect them. For that matter, I do have a few embedded devices in my collection. But a lot of them are actually ones that I worked on in former lives. That's really why they're interesting to me. BLS From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 14 11:19:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:19:36 -0500 Subject: classiccmp.org operational costs? Message-ID: <45F82098.5040308@yahoo.co.uk> Jay, Out of curiosity (and to the list in case others are interested), do you have an estimate for the yearly cost of providing classiccmp.org and all the services it provides? I gather you've got the ISP already, so presumably the infrastructure doesn't come into it - and likely the same with things like backup hardware (but not media) etc. as they'll already be in place for other non-classiccmp services. I think what I'm asking is, how much of "your" money do you put into it per year in order to provide the mailing list, hosting for those of us who have data on the classiccmp server(s) etc.? [is there just "a" classiccmp.org server, or is it all spread across several machines?] cheers Jules From tim at tim-mann.org Wed Mar 14 09:47:58 2007 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:47:58 -0700 Subject: Fw: TRS80 model 4 available Message-ID: <20070314074758.2e790dd7@venice.mumblefrotz.org> I'm just passing this on -- reply to Mr. Rhoades directly if you're interested. ------- Forwarded Message Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:32:45 -0800 From: "William Rhoades" <wwrseb at hotmail.com> Subject: TRS80 model 4 available I am settling my brother's estate. In his old office is a complete TRS Model 4, floppy drives, software, etc. Hasn't been used in years. This should be of interest to hobbiests. His widow and I want to get all this stuff in the hands of some club or individual with bona fides. I haven't got time or interest in ebaying it. Location of equipment is Asheville, NC. If you have any suggestions, I will get in email contact during the next 10 days that I am in Asheville. Thanks. Bill Rhoades ------- End of Forwarded Message -- Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 11:32:41 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:32:41 -0400 Subject: Embedded devices vs "real" computers (was Re: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!) Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703140932j1863155cgf7921953ff85d7b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > Personally, I find little widgets with embedded processors > fascinating. <AOL> Me, too. </AOL> > Consider a credit-card terminal--it has a modem, > display, keyboard, can interface to a printer and most have some non- > volatile memory. The difference between many word processors and > general-purpose computers is one of nomenclature more than anything. > Yet no one's really interested in them. An old Artec, CPT or AES WP > box has the same basic components and vintage as most early > microcomputer systems, but no one's interested in collecting them. For me, at least, the difference is that a word processor or credit card terminal or a gas pump, or whatever, does what it does and is difficult to have it do something it was not designed to do. If it were possible to get developer-level documentation on the internals of said embedded devices, that might be something different entirely. The one class of devices like this that _is_ thoroughly explored is Internet/e-mail appliances like the Audrey, the WebPal, the iOpener, etc. Many of these, of course, are just Intel PCs with a UNIXy OS in FLASH ROM, but at least they are inexpensive enough and powerful enough to attract attention from the contemporary hardware hacker community. Older devices, while interesting in their own right, aren't as easy to come by, or, prior to the advertiser/subscription business model, were paid for by the end user, not heavily subsidized. ISTR IOpeners were costing the company $400 each, but were marketed at $99 (later $99 plus a mandatory 4 month sub.) For a 200MHz PC w/USB, 16MB Flash, 800x600 LCD, single-DC-voltage power (19VDC), $99 was a *scorching* price, so lots of hackers picked them up and figured out how to dump the OS and replace it with Linux or Windows (yes... people _did_ put Windows98 on them). For your money, you get a nice little toy that's easy to reverse engineer, and when you do, the machine becomes quite useful for a variety of applications. A used credit card terminal for $20 (or whatever the going rate is) can still be turned into something else, but it's not going to capture the attention of an army of curious hackers. I guess the other thing is... for as much work as it would be to delve the secrets of a credit card terminal, I can whip together an LCD display and a microcontroller for a few bucks and have 100% control over its innards. If I don't care to start from scratch, I can begin with any number of Atmel/LCD projects already out there (and I've done just that recently). At that point, the advantage of an existing CC terminal diminishes rapidly. It still has the benefit of being mass produced and potentially abundant, but anyone can order an ATtiny2313 for a couple of bucks and hang a 2x20 text LCD or a 128x64 graphic LCD off it and make it display some sensor input or whatever. The CC terminal has to have some pretty cool stuff in there to pull into the lead for a hardware project - I'd most likely gut the LCD and possibly keep the plastic case for some other project than hack the microcontroller that's already in there, and that's presuming it's not a mask-programmed part and that I can reflash the chip. So while I might not turn down a box of embedded devices like a credit card terminal, hacking a lone terminal isn't as appealing as building a similar device from scratch and knowing exactly how that new device works. As I said, though, having developers' docs might tip the balance, but the chances of that are rather low. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 11:40:40 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:40:40 -0400 Subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?) In-Reply-To: <20070314171517.3d4cae08@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070310000714.A81299@plum.flirble.org> <f4eb766f0703092132s5f811a20g755a4676ffcaa16d@mail.gmail.com> <20070314171517.3d4cae08@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703140940o5980c4f0m5392236c86d8701b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote: > On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:32:59 -0500 > "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Did anyone on the list ever get that uVAX2000 SCSI mod working? > We applied that hack to a VS2k at a geek meeting some years back. It > kind of booted VMS. But VMS crashed during boot as it had no suitable > disk drivers for the VS2k SCSI. Right. The project as I remember it had two components - patched ROMs to boot, then a patched(/new?) VMS driver for once the system got far enough to need a driver. It's why I think the cycle has to be to bring up VMS on a VS2000 with an RD disk, then add in the SCSI-aware driver (PDDRIVER? PKDRIVER?), _then_ copy it all over to a SCSI disk, _then_ worry about booting to the SCSI disk. You could put the ROMs in first, but it won't bypass the driver step. You'll still need a running system. One could do all the work on a MicroVAX II, say, but unless you have an SDI disk or a VAXcluster, or some other sort of boot volume, the most common way to boot a MicroVAX I or II was from an RD disk anyway, so you'd have the same sort of size issues as you would in a VS2000. It would also be easier doing this from a VAX that already has a SCSI interface, but at the time I was fiddling with this, it wasn't feasible. Now, newer VAXstations aren't current technology, so they shouldn't be fetching several thousand apiece, and are most likely cheaper than a Qbus SCSI card (which would be another avenue). > Later I tried to boot NetBSD on my > modified VS2k. It didn't work as the NetBSD boot loader doesn't > understand the VS2k SCSI hardware. At least it got as far as loading the > boot loader. Interesting. I've never heard of anyone trying to bring up any flavor of UNIX via the onboard 5380 on a VS2000; only VMS. Theoretically, one could make it work, but I doubt anyone has put forth the effort (and perhaps never may). Good to hear from someone who really did fiddle with it. Thanks for replying. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 14 11:44:56 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:44:56 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <ECC91EB1-1F3A-4321-9E8F-DAA440F953E2@neurotica.com> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> <45F6F341.9070200@yahoo.co.uk> <ECC91EB1-1F3A-4321-9E8F-DAA440F953E2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F82688.4070508@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 13, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> /bin/finger >>> apophis$ which talk >>> /bin/talk >>> ...looks to me like they're still there. >> >> The issue's more that in today's security-paranoid atmosphere >> firewalls tend to have everything apart from a few basic services >> (like HTTP and SMTP) blocked. So the binaries are still there and >> reasonably widespread - you just can't use 'em :( > > I generally don't (and generally won't) use networks that I don't run, > and I'm not a lazy or clueless admin...so I'm used to seeing things a > bit more "open" and functional. OK, so they're still functional *to you*. But if you take into account the number of machines on the public network and then look at the number of machines which are capable of using programs like talk, I suspect the proportion is absolutely tiny. (which isn't a Good Thing, IMHO) (I had exactly the same issues with VCRs the other day - they're still useful *to me*, but planet-wide they're dead as a dodo, superseded by DVD and PVR technology, so I had to bite my tongue when someone declared them obsolete :-) [and there's a real danger with people confusing obsolescence with "no longer any good" - to my mind they're often totally different things] cheers J. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 11:55:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:55:00 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! In-Reply-To: <20070314161904.CYEV29413.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20070314161904.CYEV29413.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <45F7C674.24095.51968318@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Mar 2007 at 11:19, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > Personally, I think this is exactly why they aren't very interesting. > Because they are so much like a general-purpose system, they > don't have a particularly interesting hardware design, almost > by definition. Their software is usually not particularly interesting > either. But you are captive in that software. You can't really do > anything interesting with them, except type letters. And for the > most part, they didn't have much influence on the rest of computing. > So, there's not much to draw me, or I suspect a lot of others, to > them. That's mostly a matter of will. There were several interesting applications (such as VEDIT) ported to the Displaywriter. Many WP packages have spreadsheet and database software available. As far as architecture, an old AES 800 WP is about as exciting as architecture of the time gets--a custom ECL CPU supported by several 8080's doing the peripheral I/O. I'd love to own one of those. Even an early Brother or Smith-Corona box has its charm. I suspect that internals are hard to come by mostly because they were viewed as "trade secrets", but they're not hard to ferret out. But the SCM boxes often provided a terminal emulator as well as XMODEM data transfer. And let's not forget that "computers" like the QX-10 weren't all that far from being word processors, what with integrated Valdocs and whatnot. Some of the old CPT systems had what must have almost certainly been Beehive or Microdata terminals on them, given the "page edit" mode of operation. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Mar 14 11:54:18 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:54:18 -0400 Subject: SWTPC craze Message-ID: <01C76638.25DEAB20@mse-d03> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:40:29 -0600 From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> Subject: Re: SWTPC craze In article <45F76433.87F015DD at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> writes: <snip> ... >> I know you're interested in anything terminal, Richard, but I have to say >>from a strictly functional perspective you're not missing anything. >Yeah, I know, but people are clearly not bidding on this for the >functionality. Its the brand. >This can be a double eded sword. For instance, my Beehive terminal is >branded Cromemco and that's the *only* thing that kept it out of the >hands of the scrappers. Cromemco is a brand near and dear to people's >memories and Beehive is a "WTF is that?" brand (or worse, "what a >POS!" brand) to most people. ---------------- Good tip; I'm busy printing Cromemco stickers to put on my Falcos... ;-) mike From john at guntersville.net Wed Mar 14 12:25:03 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:25:03 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! References: <20070314161904.CYEV29413.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <45F7C674.24095.51968318@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45F82FEF.B8FA3CC6@guntersville.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 14 Mar 2007 at 11:19, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > > Personally, I think this is exactly why they aren't very interesting. > > Because they are so much like a general-purpose system, they > > don't have a particularly interesting hardware design, almost > > by definition. Their software is usually not particularly interesting > > either. But you are captive in that software. You can't really do > > anything interesting with them, except type letters. And for the > > most part, they didn't have much influence on the rest of computing. > > So, there's not much to draw me, or I suspect a lot of others, to > > them. > > That's mostly a matter of will. There were several interesting > applications (such as VEDIT) ported to the Displaywriter. Many WP > packages have spreadsheet and database software available. As far as > architecture, an old AES 800 WP is about as exciting as architecture > of the time gets--a custom ECL CPU supported by several 8080's doing > the peripheral I/O. I'd love to own one of those. > > Even an early Brother or Smith-Corona box has its charm. I suspect > that internals are hard to come by mostly because they were viewed as > "trade secrets", but they're not hard to ferret out. But the SCM > boxes often provided a terminal emulator as well as XMODEM data > transfer. > > And let's not forget that "computers" like the QX-10 weren't all that > far from being word processors, what with integrated Valdocs and > whatnot. > > Some of the old CPT systems had what must have almost certainly been > Beehive or Microdata terminals on them, given the "page edit" mode of > operation. > > Cheers, > Chuck At least some of the old CTP systems, if not all, would boot CP/M and did a fine job of running CP/M software software. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 14 12:32:13 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:32:13 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! Message-ID: <20070314173214.FBAW29413.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > That's mostly a matter of will. There were several interesting > applications (such as VEDIT) ported to the Displaywriter. That is a good point. The only argument that I'd have with it is that since so much of the software we'd find interesting was ported from general-purpose platforms, the particular machines aren't really a part of it. > As far as > architecture, an old AES 800 WP is about as exciting as architecture > of the time gets--a custom ECL CPU supported by several 8080's doing > the peripheral I/O. I'd love to own one of those. I would too. That's a good example of the exceptions. I guess I was thinking more of the later generation devices. So many of them were just Z80s or 80186s with pretty conventional video and disk controllers. Not really any different from many general-purpose designs of the era, but much less hackable. But as you point out, there are certainly gems to be found in every corner of the computing world. > And let's not forget that "computers" like the QX-10 weren't all that > far from being word processors, what with integrated Valdocs and > whatnot. But is it really the WP aspect that makes it interesting or the form factor as an evolutionary step to PDAs? I'd even suggest that there may have been something of an unholy marriage between those little things and the suitcase luggables that built the image of a laptop in some minds. BLS From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 13:05:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:05:10 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! In-Reply-To: <20070314173214.FBAW29413.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20070314173214.FBAW29413.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <45F7D6E6.25084.51D6C1DF@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Mar 2007 at 12:32, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > But is it really the WP aspect that makes it interesting or the > form factor as an evolutionary step to PDAs? I'd even > suggest that there may have been something of an unholy > marriage between those little things and the suitcase > luggables that built the image of a laptop in some minds. Form factor? Looks just like another "box with a monitor and keyboard to me". The Sony SMC-70 of the same time was a lot smaller. Could you be thinking of the PX-8? As far as PDAs, I think the little micro-cassette Convergent Tech Workslate (same year) came a lot closer. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 13:07:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:07:53 -0700 Subject: Embedded devices vs "real" computers (was Re: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703140932j1863155cgf7921953ff85d7b@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703140932j1863155cgf7921953ff85d7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F7D789.24648.51D93D1E@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Mar 2007 at 12:32, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So while I might not turn down a box of embedded devices like a credit > card terminal, hacking a lone terminal isn't as appealing as building > a similar device from scratch and knowing exactly how that new device > works. As I said, though, having developers' docs might tip the > balance, but the chances of that are rather low. I suppose I can appreciate your viewpoint. Digging into little gizmos, even if it's to dump the ROMs is more appealing to my inner 5- year old. My parents could never give me anything mechanical or electrical without having me take it to pieces. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 14 13:13:00 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:13:00 -0500 Subject: classiccmp.org operational costs? References: <45F82098.5040308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00ef01c76664$66bfb130$6700a8c0@BILLING> Jules wrote.... > Out of curiosity (and to the list in case others are interested), do you > have an estimate for the yearly cost of providing classiccmp.org and all > the services it provides? No, actually I don't :) > I gather you've got the ISP already, so presumably the infrastructure > doesn't come into it - and likely the same with things like backup > hardware (but not media) etc. as they'll already be in place for other > non-classiccmp services. All correct. > I think what I'm asking is, how much of "your" money do you put into it > per year in order to provide the mailing list, hosting for those of us who > have data on the classiccmp server(s) etc.? Time: I put in a lot, the moderators (to whom you can credit cctech still existing) put in a lot, and the web developer for the new classiccmp.org website has been putting in tons of work. The development website really looks awesome. Hopefully I can share the url with the public before too long :) But I think all of us consider it a labor of love and this doesn't count as a "cost". Hardware: Currently the Classiccmp.org server is a single 1U box sitting in our racks. Intel Celeron 2ghz, 1gb ram, 3ware/escalade raid 0/1 controller, and two PATA 160gb drives mirrored (160gb usable). FreeBSD, apache2, mysql, htdig, mailman, mod_watch, perl5, php4, phpmyadmin, and proftpd to name the major packages loaded. The main functions of the server are the mailing list, the classiccmp website, and all the classic computer related websites that I offer to host for free. I don't view this as a "cost" either, because whenever the hardware needs an upgrade I post it to the list and people donate (usually via paypal, sometimes via check) to cover the cost of the hardware upgrades. I think the last upgrade I put in a chunk of my own cash but I honestly don't recall for sure, that part is not something I feel the need to track in any case. Speaking of which... the time is rapidly approaching where something needs to be done about upgrading the box. The real problem is just disk space is getting quite tight. One could argue that all we need to do is replace the two drives with big ones (terabyte each maybe, or 1/2 terabyte each). That may be the route to go. But there's another possibility I was thinking too that sets off a cascade of upgrade requirements. It'd be nice if the OS was mirrored and on two totally separate drives from the data (which would need to be raid5). The whole reason for this is so that in the future we could easily add more space WITHOUT taking up a ton of my time to reinstall the OS too. If the OS was mirrored for protection and independent of the raid set for drives, we could just add more drives when needs dictate and it would be a trivial thing with little or no downtime. The problem is, the current 1U case won't hold more than 2 drives total. So going this route would mean replacing the case AND the raid controller (the two most expensive parts). Perhaps a 2U case that has six exposed hot swap drives. The current raid controller only supports 2 drives, and only raid 0 or raid 1. If I had my druthers I'd prefer off the shelf generic parts rather than a fully integrated (but proprietary) box like a dell. I like being able to use replacement parts in an emergency that I already have on hand. But, I didn't mean to broach this topic here, that's for discussion another day. Bandwidth: HERE is the spot where money actually leaves my pocket - sort of. The classiccmp.org server actually uses a pretty substantial amount of bandwidth for a single webserver/mailinglist machine (more than many of my commercial service webservers). Bitsavers accounts for a chunk, but so do some of the other sites on it (some sometimes more than bitsavers) like transputer, calcmuseum, rainbow, trs80, cpm, dunfield, tellason, acornia, swtpc.com, retroarchive.org, wang220, sol20, etc. Many of these sites are similar to bitsavers in that not only do they have html content, they also have substantial documentation sections of manuals, pdf's, disk images, etc. In addition to end-user bitsaver file downloads, all the other bitsavers repositories are mirrors from the one on classiccmp. I'm not complaining at all folks, just stating the usage. Here's a datapoint for you.... last night bitsavers.org hit 80mbps (80 megaBITS per second). That's unusual though. I would say classiccmp as a whole tends to sit between 5mbps and 12mbps on average. 10mbps of symetric bandwidth is not cheap! Do not confuse this with 10mbps of asymetric bandwidth like you get on a home cable or DSL connection for $50/month. As soon as you start talking symetric bandwidth (as an ISP/webhosting/colocation company I have to have symetric bandwidth), you are talking real money (easily a factor of 10 times more expensive). So if I already have lots of bandwidth here, how does classiccmp cost anything... well, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. My bandwidth costs are not pure metered. I pay for a set amount. There's a fairly significant cushion above that that my upstream folks will ignore for short periods of time. Above that, and I get an extra bill. The overage bandwidth is more expensive than the "prepaid" bandwidth. As a result it's in my best interest to modify my prepaid bandwidth level very carefully. I raise the prepaid bandwidth as my access/colocation/webhosting business grows. This means that my bandwidth costs have a "stairstep" look on a graph. When I raise it, I raise it more than I currently need to cover near term growth and spikes. So for example... if I have just upgraded my bandwidth due to growth, I have gobs more than I need and classiccmp doesn't really cost me anything extra. As I grow and get closer to the "next step", yeah, it definitely costs money because it's using bandwidth I could be using elsewhere. But then the next step comes and I have more than I need and it's not a factor. So it's a VERY hard thing to quantify exactly what it costs. The "stairsteps" occur fairly frequently. Classiccmp often makes me go to the next stair before I would normally have to. Again, I'm not complaining :) > [is there just "a" classiccmp.org server, or is it all spread across > several machines?] See above.... one machine. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 13:25:35 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:25:35 -0400 Subject: Embedded devices vs "real" computers (was Re: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!) In-Reply-To: <45F7D789.24648.51D93D1E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <f4eb766f0703140932j1863155cgf7921953ff85d7b@mail.gmail.com> <45F7D789.24648.51D93D1E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703141125g62ce4b68rbe138f230345ac47@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 14 Mar 2007 at 12:32, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > So while I might not turn down a box of embedded devices like a credit > > card terminal, hacking a lone terminal isn't as appealing as building > > a similar device from scratch and knowing exactly how that new device > > works. > > I suppose I can appreciate your viewpoint. Digging into little > gizmos, even if it's to dump the ROMs is more appealing to my inner 5- > year old. I've certainly torn apart many embedded devices to see how they worked, to see if they could be hacked, to dump ROMs, etc. Unfortunately, thinking about modern devices, they seem to have epoxy-potted bare dice and no external ROMs. One recent case in point - an LED messager I picked up at the Mansfield Hamfest for $2... it has a grid of 7x21 discrete LEDs, a few TTL chips, some row/column driver transistors, and a mysterious controller under an epoxy blob. As shipped, you can feed this thing a message (via input buttons) and have the message scroll across the LEDs. It also has a built-in clock AM/PM clock mode. Personally, I'd prefer 24-hour time, or the ability to feed this thing messages from a machine on the network. Well... long story short, after tearing it down, I decided to put it back together. I can get four 7x5 LED blocks for a few dollars and hook them up to a microcontroller and it will do exactly what I want, and I don't have to invest the time to reverse-engineer somebody else's design first. I do, however, spend time reverse-engineering peripherals to adapt them to different platforms (POS "Pole Displays", Dragon's Lair/Space Ace LED scoreboard, DSR-4400 satellite decoder box LCD/LED/button interface board...) _Those_ items can be hooked to a variety of machines, and especially to whatever my development box/daily drive happens to be. It doesn't matter what processor these came from - a peripheral is still a peripheral and does the same task 5, 10, or 20 years later, even when processors and operating systems are vastly different. > My parents could never give me anything mechanical or > electrical without having me take it to pieces. That was my childhood as well - I tore apart many telephones, radios, and televisions growing up. I also remember when my Dad gave me a toolbox and a sewing machine - that thing took 2 days to dismantle. Lots of tiny screws and springs. Electronic stuff was more fascinating, so here I am. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 14 14:46:37 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:46:37 -0700 Subject: Embedded devices vs "real" computers (was Re: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703141125g62ce4b68rbe138f230345ac47@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703140932j1863155cgf7921953ff85d7b@mail.gmail.com> <45F7D789.24648.51D93D1E@cclist.sydex.com> <f4eb766f0703141125g62ce4b68rbe138f230345ac47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F8511D.2060709@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > That was my childhood as well - I tore apart many telephones, radios, > and televisions growing up. I also remember when my Dad gave me a > toolbox and a sewing machine - that thing took 2 days to dismantle. > Lots of tiny screws and springs. I take it sewing was the last thing on your mind. :) > Electronic stuff was more > fascinating, so here I am. I notice how hands on *any thing* is more and more restricted for young people. > -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 14 13:57:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:57:15 -0500 Subject: classiccmp.org operational costs? In-Reply-To: <00ef01c76664$66bfb130$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <45F82098.5040308@yahoo.co.uk> <00ef01c76664$66bfb130$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45F8458B.8060109@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Jules wrote.... >> Out of curiosity (and to the list in case others are interested), do >> you have an estimate for the yearly cost of providing classiccmp.org >> and all the services it provides? > No, actually I don't :) OK, that was an easy answer then ;) [time taken] >> But I think all of us consider it a labor of love and this doesn't > count as a "cost". I agree - if you didn't enjoy it and didn't see a benefit in doing it then it wouldn't get done, I suppose! > Hardware: Currently the Classiccmp.org server is a single 1U box [ snip ] That summary would be quite nice on an "info" page somewhere on the classiccmp.org site, purely for the curious (and geeky ;) You know, I think I've had the discussion before with you about splitting the OS and data drives on the server, purely to make future upgrades easier. Can't remember if that was on-list or not. Anyway, it certainly seems sensible to me, and likely has a few performance and admin benefits too. I hear ya about building the systems out of off-the-shelf parts rather than some proprietary box; it's probably more cost-effective in the longer term and does give you that "reliability cushion" in that you can chop and change stuff as/when things break. Proprietary equipment only ever seems to work when there's someone paying huge $$$ for a "we'll come out and fix it before you even know it broke" support contract :-) Problem being that it needs up-front investment (although of course there's probably previous-generation hardware to be had for free if you're in the right location, which would just mean spending money on upgrading the drives) cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 14 13:59:10 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:59:10 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <C21C8CF8.881D%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C21C8CF8.881D%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F845FE.10706@oldskool.org> Adrian Graham wrote: > But by cat-ing several mpegs together you DO end up with a single header, No, you end up with an invalid target with multiple beginning-of-file headers throughout the file. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 14 14:03:00 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:03:00 -0500 Subject: Embedded devices vs "real" computers (was Re: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703141125g62ce4b68rbe138f230345ac47@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703140932j1863155cgf7921953ff85d7b@mail.gmail.com> <45F7D789.24648.51D93D1E@cclist.sydex.com> <f4eb766f0703141125g62ce4b68rbe138f230345ac47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F846E4.5050607@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> My parents could never give me anything mechanical or >> electrical without having me take it to pieces. > > That was my childhood as well - I tore apart many telephones, radios, > and televisions growing up. Heh heh, that sounds familiar. The things didn't quite always go back together again :) I remember at one place I lived there was sort of an unofficial dumping ground for old cars, TVs, washing machines etc. a couple of miles down the road amongst some woodland - lots of times friends and I used to cycle down there with whatever tools we could borrow and just take stuff apart.... > I also remember when my Dad gave me a > toolbox and a sewing machine - that thing took 2 days to dismantle. > Lots of tiny screws and springs. Electronic stuff was more > fascinating, so here I am. I suppose I always had about an equal respect for mechanical and electronic devices (which in a way is a little annoying - it's hard to make a career out of this sort of thing when you're right in the middle and don't have a natural interest to any one area) cheers Jules From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 14 14:09:12 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:09:12 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! Message-ID: <20070314190912.ZXEL21573.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > Form factor? Looks just like another "box with a monitor and > keyboard to me". The Sony SMC-70 of the same time was a lot smaller. > Could you be thinking of the PX-8? I may well be suffering bit rot. I thought that was the one that had a similar form factor to those Sharps that Radio Shack rebadged as the PC-1 and PC-2. (Of course those designations may also be the result of neurons going the way of dynamic RAM not refreshed fast enough.) At least in that space the Tandy Model 100 is a fairly interesting example. There weren't many like it and it clearly was a step toward the laptop. And one of its biggest applications was as a WP for reporters to prepare their stories in the field. The dedicated WPs that I was getting at were things like the Brothers that you could buy at Walmart 15 or 20 years ago. I'll agree that office systems in general from before say 1980 are in the realm of interesting. It's the high volume appliances that briefly supplanted typewriters that come to mind when I think of dedicated WPs, and I don't see much in them that's interesting. BLS From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 14 14:28:07 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:28:07 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F845FE.10706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <C21DFD47.88FA%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 14/3/07 18:59, "Jim Leonard" <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> But by cat-ing several mpegs together you DO end up with a single header, > > No, you end up with an invalid target with multiple beginning-of-file > headers throughout the file. Ah, my bad. I naturally assumed that cat would strip those off and just have a single pair, otherewise how does the new header report the newly expanded filesize? Or doesn't it do that and apps just deal with it as a filestream? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 14:48:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:48:50 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <C21DFD47.88FA%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <45F845FE.10706@oldskool.org> <C21DFD47.88FA%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703141248r77d4c03dh4453ee94f8bf07f9@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> wrote: > Ah, my bad. I naturally assumed that cat would strip those off and just have > a single pair, otherewise how does the new header report the newly expanded > filesize? Or doesn't it do that and apps just deal with it as a filestream? Cat just, um, cats. It has no knowledge of the contents of a file, but will happily squeeze together any amount of data you can fit from any source you can read from. Unlike the AVI format, MPEG-2 isn't utterly reliant on every detail in the headers being precisely correct. A well-behaved player will use what's in the header, but players I've used will keep attempting to play until they hit EOF or until the data looks so screwy that it causes serious problems to the decoder routines. What you may see from glommed MPEGs is a blip on the screen or a chirp from the audio as the decoder moves across the headers embedded in the file, but even that's not guaranteed to happen - it all depends on the particulars of the CODEC in use. MPEG, though, is reasonably tolerant of cruft passing though - like when there's a scratch or a speck of dust on a DVD, so it's unlikely to throw up its hands because it finds a few dozen bytes that don't decode to sensible video. With all of that said, I _think_ there's tools out there that can identify and remove those embedded headers. You wouldn't need the tool if everyone used "proper" tools to merge video, but since lots of people stitch MPEGs together with cat or COPY or whatever else, there's demand for the tool. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 14:50:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:50:01 -0700 Subject: Embedded devices vs "real" computers (was Re: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!) In-Reply-To: <45F846E4.5050607@yahoo.co.uk> References: <f4eb766f0703140932j1863155cgf7921953ff85d7b@mail.gmail.com>, <f4eb766f0703141125g62ce4b68rbe138f230345ac47@mail.gmail.com>, <45F846E4.5050607@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F7EF79.15555.5236C059@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Mar 2007 at 14:03, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I remember at one place I lived there was sort of an unofficial dumping ground > for old cars, TVs, washing machines etc. a couple of miles down the road > amongst some woodland - lots of times friends and I used to cycle down there > with whatever tools we could borrow and just take stuff apart.... I used to prowl the alleys around home picking up old TVs and radios to scavenge for parts. The power transformers from some of the old TVs were things of beauty. Older radios were always greeted with glee (this was before the All-American 5 became common in the trash stream). Cheers, Chuck From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Mar 14 14:56:28 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:56:28 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F72FD1.1010709@frixxon.co.uk> References: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org>, <200703131857.l2DIvlV3024444@mail.bcpl.net>, <45F72FD1.1010709@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200703141956.l2EJuSVt013851@mail.bcpl.net> On 13 Mar 2007 at 23:12, Paul Williams wrote: > > 1. You are the only FTP mirror > > Not any more. You can now use bitsavers.vt100.net as well. Super, thanks! > That delay is under 24 hours. "Typically under 24 hours." :-) -- Dave From pechter at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 15:16:15 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:16:15 -0400 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <ee5521f80703141316i7c355032j52bbce3d2d1ded8f@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Jay West <jwest at ezwind.net> wrote: > > Ya know... this recent talk of terminals got me thinking..... > > It would be a good idea IMHO to preserve the functionality of all these > classic old terminals. After all, sooner or later the real ones will > disappear or at least stop working. After all, some systems are picky > about > only working with certain terminals (or some only work WELL with certain > terminals)... > > Then I started thinking... most modernish "good" terminal emulation > packages > don't support all the old venerable classics. Sure, many do VT100 (sort > of). > But when was the last time you saw a terminal emulation package that > faithfully reproduced a beehive minibee? Or a Heath H19? I think it might > be > helpful for the future if there was a "collectors" terminal emulation > program that really did strive to get emulations for all the old > terminals, > and get it dead right. I know it'd be nice to have one emulator for my > systems that "did the right thing(tm)" on my HP mini's, my DECs, DGs, and > my > Heathkits, GA Zebras, TI990's, etc. etc. all with one program. Instead I > have to have many different terminal emulation programs (because one that > does HP2624 emulation wont do my TI terminal emulation...)... or the real > thing (which of course I'd prefer). > > So then my unix-centric brain said... Oh, well, there's always > termcap/terminfo. Surely that will document old terminals for posterity > and > future emulation. So I just popped in to my local copy of terminfo and > sure > enough, there's even an entry for the beehive minibee and superbee. BUT... > I > then noted the comments that say "hey, this termcap entry is pretty wrong > and doesn't work right". So relying on terminfo for preservation is > probably > not a great idea. But it's a start. > > Just thinking out loud... would be nice to have a terminal emulation > program > that was easily extensible for any terminal, already had all the ones > defined that we here are familiar with... and ran on everything from > MS/DOS > to Vista to *nix. A classiccmp'ers terminal emulator :) Maybe a good start > would be those of us that have particular terminals at least going in and > correcting the terminfo entries that are incorrect. > > Perhaps this is a silly idea and I just need my morning coffee! > > Jay West > > > > If you get something that does that... let me know. Kermit-95 is the closest thing. I purchased it and like the emulation for the DEC stuff. Don't know how good the DG is... also used the SCO-Ansi... pretty good there. Kermit 95 Terminal Types *As of:* Kermit 95 2.0 <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95.html> *Date:* 7 June 2002 Kermit 95 2.0 supports 40 terminal emulations: *ADM3A* The Lear-Siegler ADM-3A terminal. No F-keys. *AIXTERM* For accessing IBM AIX systems. Compatible with the AIXTERM window on AIX workstations, and the AIXTERM termcap / terminfo entry. Has F1-F12 keys, also Shift-F1-F12. *ANSI-BBS (*) <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/termtype.html#ansi>* For accessing most BBSs. 8 bits, color, line- and box-drawing, "ANSI graphics". As defined in the DOS 5.0 manual. Function keys F1-F4 send what VT100 sends, F5-F12 undefined. *AT386 (*) <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/termtype.html#ansi>* For accessing (SCO) Unixware and (Sunsoft) Interactive UNIX systems. Has 60 Function keys F1-F12 plus various versions with Shift, Ctrl, Ctrl-Shift, etc. *Avatar/0+ (*) <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/termtype.html#ansi>* For accessing BBSs that support certain advanced features. If a BBS supports Avatar/0+, this is normally negotiated automatically when you log in to it. F1-F4, like ANSI-BBS. *BA80* The Nixdorf BA80 terminal (Germany), used for accessing Nixdorf computers. Has PA (function) keys 1-12. *BETERM (*) <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/termtype.html#ansi>* BeBox console, the preferred terminal type for accessing the BeBox and BeOS. *DG200* Data General DASHER 200, for accessing AOS/VS, DG/UX, and other Data General platforms. Has function keys F1-F12, which can be modified by Shift, Ctrl, or Ctrl-Shift, plus some others (e.g. Alt-F1-F5, Alt-Shift-F1-F5, Ctrl-Alt-F1-F5). *DG210* Data General DASHER 210, for accessing AOS/VS, DG/UX, and other Data General platforms. F-keys as for DG200. *DG217* Data General DASHER 217, for accessing AOS/VS, DG/UX, and other Data General platforms. Includes both DG and UNIX modes, as well as alternate character sets -- Math/Symbol, Line Drawing, Word Processing. F-keys as for DG200. *HEATH19* The Heath-19 or Zenith-19 terminal. Has PF1-4 like VT100. *HFT* IBM's High Function Terminal type, used for accessing AIX and other IBM platforms that support it. Has F1-F12, Shift-F1-F12, Ctrl-F1-F12. *HP2621A* The Hewlett Packard 2621A terminal. Has F1-F16. F9-F16 are entered by Shift-F1-F8. *HPTERM (*) <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/termtype.html#hpterm>* Hewlett Packard's generic HPTERM specification, used on HP-UX in HPTERM windows, and compatible with various specific HP terminals such as those in the 700 series. F keys as for HP2621A. *HZ1500* The Hazeltine 1500 terminal. Has F1-F12. *IBM3151* The IBM 3151 terminal. This emulation is just enough to support termcap and terminfo driven applications on Unix. A complete keyboard mapping is provided as well as the IBM 3151 graphics character set. None of the special forms modes are (yet) implemented. Has F1-F12, Alt-F1-F12, Shift-Alt-F1-F12. *LINUX* The Linux console. Has 60+ function keys, produced by F-keys (and some others) in various combinations with Shift, Ctrl, and Alt. *QANSI (*) <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/termtype.html#ansi>* The QNX ANSI terminal. F1-F10. *QNX* The QNX console. F1-F12, Shift F1-F12. *SCOANSI (*) <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/termtype.html#ansi>* The SCO version of ANSI, used by SCO UNIX, ODT, and OpenServer, and Caldera Open UNIX. Has 60 function keys, like AT386. WARNING: The host name is ANSI, but Kermit's name is SCOANSI, to distinguish it from ANSI-BBS, which is different. When making Telnet connections, set Kermit's terminal type to SCOANSI and its Telnet terminal-type to ANSI: set terminal type scoansi set telnet terminal-type ansi *SNI-97801* The Siemens Nixdorf Bildschirmeinheit 97801-5xx (Germany), for use with SINIX. Downloadable character-sets, fonts, and compose tables are not supported. Has tons of function keys produced by various combinations of F-keys with Shift, Ctrl, and Alt. *TTY* Teletypewriter. This is equivalent to no terminal emulation at all. *TVI910+* The Televideo 910+ terminal. F1-F12, Shift-F1-F12, Alt-F1-F6, Alt-Shift-F1-F6. *TVI925* The Televideo 925 terminal. F1-F12, Shift-F1-F12, Alt-F1-F6, Alt-Shift-F1-F6. *TVI950* The Televideo 950 terminal. F1-F12, Shift-F1-F12, Alt-F1-F6, Alt-Shift-F1-F6. *VC404* The Volker Craig 404 terminal. F1-F12. *VIP7809* Partial emulation of the Honeywell VIP-7809 terminal. In fact, this is VT-102 emulation with minor modifications sufficient to allow access to Honeywell DPS-6 systems. *VT52* The Digital Equipment Corporation VT52 terminal. Has PF keys 1-4 on F1-F4 but no F keys. *VT100* The industry-standard 7-bit Digital Equipment Corporation VT100 terminal, with color extensions. Has PF keys 1-4 on F1-F4, but no F keys. *VT102* Like VT100, but with character insertion and deletion capabilities and several other functions added, and with color extensions. *VT220* The industry-standard 8-bit Digital Equipment Corporation VT220 terminal with color extensions. Has PF keys 1-4 on F1-F4, plus 20 F-keys, 1-20, of which only F5-F20 are usable, on F5-F12 and Shift-F1-F10. *VT220PC* VT220 with a PC keyboard. *VT320* The industry-standard 8-bit Digital Equipment Corporation VT320 terminal with color extensions, plus many features of the VT420, VT520, and DECterm. F-keys as for VT220. *VT320PC* VT320 with a PC keyboard. *VTNT* VTNT is a proprietary Microsoft terminal definition used by the Telnet Server distributed with Windows 2000/XP and NT Services for Unix. *WY30* The Wyse model 30 terminal, plus most of the capaibilities of the Wyse 30+ and 35 models. Multiple Windows, display controls, and certain other features are not currently supported. *WY50* The Wyse model 50 terminal. Multiple Windows, display controls, and certain other features are not currently supported. F1-F12, Shift-F1-F12, Alt-Shift-F1-F6, and others. *WY60* The Wyse model 60 terminal, plus most of the features of the Wyse 120, 160, and 350 models. Multiple Windows, display controls, and certain other features are not currently supported. F keys as for WY50. *WY160* The Wyse model 160 terminal, plus most of the features of the Wyse 120 and 350 models. Multiple Windows, display controls, and certain other features are not currently supported. *WY370* The Wyse model 370 terminal, similar to VT320 but with additional color capabilities. F-keys as for WY60, plus some more. The names in the list are those used in the Terminal Type box on the Terminal page of the Dialer entry notebook, and by the SET TERMINAL TYPE command. These names are also sent to the host in Telnet terminal type negotiations unless you have specified a TELNET terminal-type name to override it. ------------------------------ ANSI Terminal Types Whenever a (PC) ANSI<http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/gloss.htm#g_ansi>terminal type is chosen, the following actions are executed automatically: - SET TERMINAL BYTESIZE 8 - SET PARITY NONE - SET TERMINAL CHARACTER-SET CP437 - SET TERMINAL COLOR TERMINAL LGRAY BLACK - Your PC code page (right half) is designated to G1, G2, and G3. The normal mode of operation for any ANSI terminal type is to converse with a host application that uses a PC code page as its character set, and whose code page is the same as your code page. This is because ANSI terminal emulation is generally used for applications where there is a lot of line and box drawing -- "graphics" simulated by colored character cells. In some environments, however, the host sends Latin-1 or other codes for accented or special characters. In such cases, you can set your terminal character set to Latin-1 (or other set) AFTER selecting an ANSI terminal type, for example: set terminal type scoansi ; Sets CP437 set terminal remote character-set latin1 ; Set it to Latin-1 But Latin-1 (and Latin-2, Cyrillic, Hebrew, etc) do not include the many box-drawing characters needed for ANSI emulation, and the simple form of the SET TERMINAL CHARACTER-SET command shown above assigns Latin-1 to all of G1, G2, and G3. Thus you must also ensure that your PC code page remains available as an alternate character set by using the more specific form of the command, which is: SET TERMINAL REMOTE-CHARACTER-SET *name [ *G*n ]* This lets you change your remote character set without having to respecify (or even know) your local PC character set (or code page). The optional G*n*field designates the named set to the specified terminal graphics table, G0, G1, G2, or G3 (you can specify more than one) according to ISO 4873 and 2022 rules. ------------------------------ HPTERM Emulation This is a functional HPTERM (Hewlett Packard Xterm) emulation, but lacking color and multiple pages. When function keys are programmed and/or labeled, you can view the labels on a popup help screen using the new \Kfnkeys verb, which is assigned by default to Alt-f. When the HPTERM emulation is selected, character sets are assigned as follows: Remote: GL->G0: US ASCII (94 chars) GR->G1: Hewlett Packard Roman 8 (96 chars) G2: HP Line Drawing Graphics (96 chars) G3: HP Line Drawing Graphics (96 chars) ------------------------------ SNI-97801 Emulation The SNI-97801 is an advanced terminal designed specificly with the multiple language market in mind. Kermit 95 does not support the following features of the terminal: - downloadable soft character sets - downloadable compose key settings The SNI-97801 has a keyboard with more than 42 function and editing keys which cannot be mapped directly to a PC keyboard. K95 provides keyboard verbs <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/kverbs.htm> for all of the SNI-97801 keys although most are not assigned to the PC keyboard due to lack of space. Kermit 95 does support all of the 7-bit and 8-bit CH.CODE modes which are controlled by the following commands: - SET TERMINAL SNI-CH.CODE {ON, OFF} or the \Ksni_ch_code keyboard verb - SET TERMINAL BYTESIZE { 7, 8 } The CH.CODE mode determines whether the terminal communicates using International character sets such U.S. ASCII and ISO Latin 1; or whether it uses a National character set such as German. The SET TERMINAL LANGUAGE command is used to specify the default language. The Firmware Versions numbers can be customized using the SET TERMINAL SNI-FIRWARE-VERSIONS command. The default keyboard version number is 920031 and the default terminal version number is 830851. ------------------------------ Automatic Actions on Switching Terminal Types Terminal types can be switched by user command ("set terminal type"), hot key (\Ktermtype, normally assigned to Alt-t), Telnet negotiations, or (in some cases) by host escape sequence. Whenever the terminal type is set or switched: - The screen is cleared. - The corresponding terminal-specific keymap is activated. - A macro named TT_*XXX*, where *xxx* is the same as the terminal type name, is executed if such a macro is defined; e.g. tt_vt320, tt_scoansi, etc. Such a macro definition might include SET TERM HEIGHT or WIDTHcommands. ------------------------------ Terminal Send Data modes Many terminals including the Wyse and Televideo terminals support a SEND DATA feature which allows the host application to query the terminal and request that a copy of all of the data on the screen be sent to the host. This feature is very useful with applications that process a complete form of data at a time; or that allow a single terminal to be used with multiple sessions. However, this feature is also a security hole which can be exploited to steal data. Therefore, Kermit 95 disables the SEND DATA feature by default. If you need to use SEND DATA with your application, you must add a SET TERMINAL SEND-DATA ON command to your K95CUSTOM.INI file. ------------------------------ *Click Back on your Browser's Toolbar to return.* ------------------------------ -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 14 15:17:11 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:17:11 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703141248r77d4c03dh4453ee94f8bf07f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <C21E08C7.8904%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 14/3/07 19:48, "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > correct. A well-behaved player will use what's in the header, but > players I've used will keep attempting to play until they hit EOF or > until the data looks so screwy that it causes serious problems to the > decoder routines. > Ah, right. Ta for that! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Mar 14 15:33:13 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:33:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F7644B.334DAE71@cs.ubc.ca> References: <002201c765a7$72a099a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <45F7644B.334DAE71@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070314202416.K80447@plum.flirble.org> On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: <<SNIP>> > Ohhh noooo ... OSI and X.400 ... For a good portion of the 80's I worked on a > project developing an X.400 mail system & OSI stack. X.400 received a lot of > attention back then as it was supposed to be (or become) the international > standard for email transfer. I was out of that by the late 80's when the > Internet was 'opened' and rolled over everything. I now think of that period > as the era of the protocol wars. > Well, X.400 still gets used in certain applications. I think the UK military use it a lot, and gets used for transporting EDI messages between in supply chain stuff. Also the basis for the Air Traffic Services (ATS) Message Handling Services used in ground-ground comms between airports to exchange flight plans etc. This is new, actively developed and not legacy. > arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> HEPNET was an OSI network at one point wasn't it? > > In the mid 80's I think it was mostly DECNET and SNA, reflecting the > machines/systems installed at the participating organisations. Some of those > orgs/nodes used our X.400 system, so there was some OSI in there. I have no idea > what happened after 1988 or so, though, although I wouldn't be surprised if they > always had it in mind to migrate to international standards. > Commercial implementations of X.500 still being developed. It's just that they play down the X.500 bit due to the stigma attached and position their products more as top end LDAP with standards based shadowing, chaining and access control etc. > Andrew Back wrote: >> Would be nice to be able to play around with this stuff though, and >> properly use the X.400 MTA & X.500 DSA you get licensed via OpenVMS >> Hobbyist. > > On a similar note to Francesca's message about one's old data turning up years > later, a little while ago I asked a friend working at a local university if > they had any 9-track tapes still kicking around as I could use some > spares/scratch tapes. He took me to a storage room filled with a several > shelves of them and said take your choice. Looking over the reels I saw a > distribution tape from 1987 for the X.400 system I worked on, complete with > source code. (There were also some BSD unix dists from the 80's in there.) > > So if I ever get a system to read the tape and run the X.400 system, and if > there is a common network level to agree on we could do some old-school > international-standard email networking ... <pause> ... on the other hand I'm > not entirely sure I want to go (back) there. Cool. That would be good as the only other implementation generally avilable is an old ISO-DE release. Do it :o) Andrew From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Mar 14 15:37:53 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:37:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OSI networking (was Re: FTP) In-Reply-To: <s5f7cf45.071@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <s5f7cf45.071@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <20070314203456.Q80447@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: >> I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI >> network, and bury this pesky Internet. > > This is sort-of like taking the most virulent strain of smallpox there > is, bottling it up, and then deciding what to do with it. Harsh. > Some things were cool and are worth saving and continuing to use. > Certainly talk, finger, etc., all the wonderfully simple TCP/IP services > fall into this category. > > Other things (OSI networking and its implementation in DECNET Phase V) > should be preserved in the computer industry's equivalent of the > Holocaust Museum, or the CDC's smallpox samples, lest we ever forget. > They literally sucked and wasted billions of dollars of otherwise useful > effort from projects that could've used creativity and simplicity rather > than seven layers of crappy beauracracy on crappy beauracracy. Well, thats one opinion. Personally I think these things embodied a lot of good ideas and whilst sometimes a pain to set up can be interesting to play with. Especially if you have done for a living and enjoy the odd trip down memory lane. And surely this is not the 'pragmatic computing' mailing list... Andrew From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 14:45:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:45:04 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! In-Reply-To: <20070314190912.ZXEL21573.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20070314190912.ZXEL21573.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <45F7EE50.26436.5232387A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Mar 2007 at 14:09, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > The dedicated WPs that I was getting at were things like > the Brothers that you could buy at Walmart 15 or 20 years > ago. I'll agree that office systems in general from before > say 1980 are in the realm of interesting. It's the high volume > appliances that briefly supplanted typewriters that come > to mind when I think of dedicated WPs, and I don't see > much in them that's interesting. Depends on your point of view. The Brother floppies are interesting-- 240K single-sided 80 (sometimes 40) track 3.5" SS2D using GCR. The drives were really gutless wonders. IIRC, many were Z80/64180 based systems. I've not tried to get CP/M running on one but it might well be possible. The Brother systems that use an external CRT have a 9-pin D-sub video interface that's pin-and signal-compatible with the IBM MDA--so those monitors can be used on your old PeeCee if you need one. OTOH, the Smith-Corona stuff was pretty awful. I've got a PWP-7000LT portable unit. Lots of ROM, but a CPU that's just an 8051-type. The display's the best part; 16x80 character LCD. The disk drive's one of those funny 2.8" gizmos that holds about 60K. Cheers, Chuck Cheers, Chuck From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Mar 14 15:43:03 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:43:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ALL-IN-ONE (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <p06240830c21dd46480ca@[192.168.1.199]> References: <004d01c76611$cf1beee0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <20070314105228.D39114@plum.flirble.org> <p06240830c21dd46480ca@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <20070314203839.R80447@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:01 AM +0000 3/14/07, Andrew Back wrote: >> Mmmm, message router. Need to have ALL-IN-ONE set up too :o) > > Warning, if you're serious, you might have an interesting time getting > ALL-IN-ONE installed on a modern system (at least 7.3 or newer). I suspect > you can do it, but that it will require reworking the installation. When I worked on VMS, MR and Mailbus etc we had a whole team that developed ALL-IN-ONE customisations for the company. So after you'd installed A1 and the myriad of stuff it needed you install the customisation packages that added bespoke screens and linked it all together (inc Wordperfect and Lotus 1-2-3 integration IIRC). Must admit I've never seen a default install. Andrew From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 14 15:42:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:42:30 -0500 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Ya know... this recent talk of terminals got me thinking..... [ thinking snipped :-) ] What something like MAME, but for terminals, you mean? Possibly a terminal's a lot easier to implement if you limit yourself to something like: keyboard character generator display I/O module bell ... but there must be lots of terminals which had various "frills" outside of this, surely? (I can't think of any personally*, but I'm not a terminal geek :-) *other than graphics terminals; I'm not sure how much sense it makes to lump those in with pure character-based devices. > Perhaps this is a silly idea and I just need my morning coffee! Interesting article I saw the other day about studies showing that coffee does nothing to "wake you up"; all it does is provide a hit for people suffering caffeine withdrawal symptoms. But I think that's OT :) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 14 16:02:29 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703141401350.20291@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > Ya know... this recent talk of terminals got me thinking..... > [ thinking snipped :-) ] > > What something like MAME, but for terminals, you mean? Related to this, I'd like to see more terminal emulations added to Minicom. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 14 16:02:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:02:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703141248r77d4c03dh4453ee94f8bf07f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F845FE.10706@oldskool.org> <C21DFD47.88FA%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141248r77d4c03dh4453ee94f8bf07f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F86303.1080207@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Cat just, um, cats. In the same way that dogs dog? :) > What you may see from glommed MPEGs is a blip on the screen or a chirp > from the audio as the decoder moves across the headers embedded in the > file, but even that's not guaranteed to happen - it all depends on the > particulars of the CODEC in use. MPEG, though, is reasonably tolerant > of cruft passing though - like when there's a scratch or a speck of > dust on a DVD, so it's unlikely to throw up its hands because it finds > a few dozen bytes that don't decode to sensible video. That's certainly been my experience - just a short glitch between the file originals where it seems to drop a frame or two, then it just carries on. I didn't realise that it wasn't strictly part of the MPEG spec that you *couldn't* just cat files together and expect it to work on all players though, so my bad :) > With all of that said, I _think_ there's tools out there that can > identify and remove those embedded headers. I think the mencoder app which comes with mplayer does this; I seem to recall reading somewhere that there's an option for recoding the data stream, which presumbly removes all the headers and writes a "correct" file. Never tried it on the few concatenated MPEGs that I have as I didn't think there was any need, but now perhaps I should! From info at harrells.net Wed Mar 14 13:33:39 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:33:39 -0400 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <45F7AFBF.22308.513DCD5F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <m1HRCiO-000J0gC@p850ug1>, <45F72AAF.20007@harrells.net> <45F7AFBF.22308.513DCD5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45F84003.4020205@harrells.net> Yes those are the ones. Thanks Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Mar 2007 at 18:50, info wrote: > > >> If you have the old style found on Imsai like the calcomp drives then >> how would you use them on a shugart interface. >> > > Are you talking about a Calcomp 140? If so, I've got the > information. One of the tricky things is that power comes in via the > ribbon cable and the drive select is a little different. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 16:13:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:13:16 -0400 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > Ya know... this recent talk of terminals got me thinking..... > [ thinking snipped :-) ] > > What something like MAME, but for terminals, you mean? If by a MAME approach you mean to build a framework for various specific emulator components that would be implemented separately, then I think that might be a good approach. One could even consider using real vendor ROM code for VT100-era-and-later terminals (wouldn't work so well for the VT52). Of course, it does lead one down the path of where do you get the ROM images unless you already _have_ a particular model of terminal, but you _would_ get bug-for-bug compatibility if your framework was on target. > Possibly a terminal's a lot easier to implement if you limit yourself to > something like: > > keyboard > character generator > display > I/O module > bell > > ... but there must be lots of terminals which had various "frills" outside of > this, surely? (I can't think of any personally*, but I'm not a terminal geek :-) Keyboard LEDs (the VT100 keyboard has 4), but that's a trivial feature compared to other considerations. Thinking aloud a bit, one could reduce the overt characteristics of swaths of terminals to text size, character size, command set, and config method (internal menu, externam dip switches, etc), and be able to bang out a large number of ANSI-compatible terminals quickly after the first terminal was emulated (since so many terminals were so much like the other ones of the day), but where it all bogs down is recreating the specifics of each model - the differences between the menus of the VT220 vs the VT240 (let alone the graphics modes of the VT240), or the simplistic setup of the VT100 vs the more user-friendly CiTOH 101, or even the internal clock of the CiTOH 101 (settable from the host with ESC[ sequences). At first glance, something like termcap seems to be a good way to organize the command set, but termcap-in-reverse. My memory of termcap is that various actions that a terminal knows how to do are described by a 2-letter designator and a set of characters needed to invoke that feature (clear, move, end of line, etc.) In the case of a universal classic terminal emulator, you'd need to be able to arbitrarily add new designators for features that are in brand X and not brand Y. As long as one could add new designators to be able to handle new terminal vendors and models, it might be somewhat easy to work towards a 1-to-1 correspondence with existing termcap entries, then perhaps to refine and improve historically defective termcap entries. I'd say one of the trickier aspects of this concept would be for those terminals with more than one port that supported either multiple sessions (CiTOH 101e) or external printers. One could arbitrarily decide that for a first cut, you get one and only one connection to the outside world (or to a network socket), but it would be nice not to design out the possibility of being able to properly emulate the real performance of the real hardware. Oh... one more frill comes to mind as being potentially difficult to implement - some DEC terminals (VT100, VT220, VT240...) had the ability to drive an RS-170-compatible mono monitor. That might be a trick coming from a process on a UNIX box, unless you went "full screen" and happen to have a video-out-compatible video card or laptop. Not a must-have feature by any means, but it was a feature back in the day, and there were plenty of people who took advantage of it. I guess it comes down to the purpose of the emulation in the first place and how exact is "exact enough". I'd be happy with an emulator that always rendered strings in the right place on the screen as a start (since so many vt100 emulators only have that 99% right). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 16:24:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:24:47 -0400 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703141424la21ac09r54814cca01c36a86@mail.gmail.com> This topic reminds me to ask - are there any deeply detailed docs for DEC terminals out there? I'm thinking of schematics for VT100s through VT240s (since I have just about one of everything). One "project" I just thought of was to take the board from a real VT220 and wrap it in just enough stuff to be able to plug either an LK201 or a modern PS/2 or USB keyboard into one end, and a VGA monitor into the other end - keyboard conversion would most likely take a microcontroller, and converting the video to something at 31KHz (VGA frequencies) might be a bit cumbersome to do (perhaps by grafting on an Amiga flicker-fixer-like circuit), but to have a brick about the size of a hardback book that one feeds +12VDC to, that _is_ a real terminal, might be an interesting thing to have around the house. One could drop it onto a KVM or just put it in ones toolbag as a portable terminal, to be used with a keyboard and monitor already at the destination site. A VT240 slab is reminiscent of this, in that it doesn't have an integral monitor, but it's a lot larger than a wrapped VT220 mainboard would be, and they aren't as common as VT220s. Perhaps this is yet another thing better done with a microcontroller and emulation software, but it's mostly a hardware project to take an existing, known-compatible board from a classic product rather than to roll one's own. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 14 16:35:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:35:19 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F82688.4070508@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20070312214504.GA81989@silme.pair.com> <CB12DDFE-9690-463C-9EE3-88DD89461E1F@neurotica.com> <45F6F341.9070200@yahoo.co.uk> <ECC91EB1-1F3A-4321-9E8F-DAA440F953E2@neurotica.com> <45F82688.4070508@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <E71E2AB9-9134-44C2-882D-7A4F3CB58DC1@neurotica.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> The issue's more that in today's security-paranoid atmosphere >>> firewalls tend to have everything apart from a few basic services >>> (like HTTP and SMTP) blocked. So the binaries are still there and >>> reasonably widespread - you just can't use 'em :( >> I generally don't (and generally won't) use networks that I >> don't run, and I'm not a lazy or clueless admin...so I'm used to >> seeing things a bit more "open" and functional. > > OK, so they're still functional *to you*. But if you take into > account the number of machines on the public network and then look > at the number of machines which are capable of using programs like > talk, I suspect the proportion is absolutely tiny. (which isn't a > Good Thing, IMHO) I agree on both counts. But I really think that, if you look at the number of people (not the proportion) who used "talk" in, say, 1992, I suspect it's probably a pretty similar number today. At least, I do, and pretty much everyone else I know who did in 1992 still does. The massive influx of clueless morons has changed the Internet considerably, to be sure, but the core of what it was is still there and still works just fine, IF you choose to make use of it. > (I had exactly the same issues with VCRs the other day - they're > still useful *to me*, but planet-wide they're dead as a dodo, > superseded by DVD and PVR technology, so I had to bite my tongue > when someone declared them obsolete :-) Indeed, I know how you feel...the same thing happens to me with a few things that I use that just happen to be "not new" (which, to the 99% of our society that doesn't think, now means "old"). > [and there's a real danger with people confusing obsolescence with > "no longer any good" - to my mind they're often totally different > things] Yes, that is infuriating. I emailed a question to the manufacturer of a piece of test equipment that I have here, and the response was "that product is obsolete". Well that's interesting...I use it every day, it works great, and the company hasn't released anything better since then. Despite what corporations seem to think, true obsolescence is determined by the USERS and the CUSTOMERS, not the vendors. There's a big, big difference between "this is obsolete" and "we'd like to sell you something different now". Now, of course there's the matter of unreasonably expecting a company to spend the resources to support a product long after it has been discontinued. But again, that's not "that product is obsolete", that's "we don't make that product anymore and we can't spend the resources to support it". BIG difference. Infuriating. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 14 16:55:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:55:01 -0500 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/14/07, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> Jay West wrote: >> > Ya know... this recent talk of terminals got me thinking..... >> [ thinking snipped :-) ] >> >> What something like MAME, but for terminals, you mean? > > If by a MAME approach you mean to build a framework for various > specific emulator components that would be implemented separately, > then I think that might be a good approach. One could even consider > using real vendor ROM code for VT100-era-and-later terminals (wouldn't > work so well for the VT52). Actually, yes, I was thinking along the lines of something which actually made use of the original firmware. That quite possible isn't practical though as presumably at least some vendors did something really oddball rather than using an off the shelf CPU :) But yes, "warts and all" through use of the original ROMs would seem ideal to me (from an accurate as possible emulation point of view). There's almost certainly far less of an issue with publishing these ROMs for terminals I would have thought - lots of the companies in question have either gone under or are hardly likely to care (unlike the situation with MAME and games manufacturers) >> ... but there must be lots of terminals which had various "frills" >> outside of >> this, surely? (I can't think of any personally*, but I'm not a >> terminal geek :-) > > Keyboard LEDs (the VT100 keyboard has 4), but that's a trivial feature > compared to other considerations. Sure. I was speculating on whether some terminals had something other than a single-tone bell, or also had mice for input etc. as those would have to be taken into account for any framework. Hmmm, I bet a few had light-pen support. > I'd say one of the trickier aspects of this concept would be for those > terminals with more than one port that supported either multiple > sessions (CiTOH 101e) or external printers. I suppose in a way though that's just another "I/O module" in terms of software - and I would have thought that support for more than one module was necessary already just because lots of terminals had more than one type of I/O to the outside world (even if only one could often be used at once) > Oh... one more frill comes to mind as being potentially difficult to > implement - some DEC terminals (VT100, VT220, VT240...) had the > ability to drive an RS-170-compatible mono monitor. Isn't that blurring the line between software and hardware a little, though? We're only talking about a software emulation, so driving a monitor is just a window on the screen of the real machine, just like the terminal's main display. Or do you mean that some terminals could drive an external monitor *independently* from the main display? (which implies our framework needs to support multiple display devices) In the Unix world at least there's often a choice of display output for apps (X11 shm, X11 opengl, raw framebuffer), so I suppose if someone wanted to write a driver to take RS-170 monitor output and spit it out to raw hardware somewhere (rather than a window) they could :) > I guess it comes down to the purpose of the emulation in the first > place and how exact is "exact enough". I'd be happy with an emulator > that always rendered strings in the right place on the screen as a > start (since so many vt100 emulators only have that 99% right). That would sure be nice - but experience seems to be that terminal emulator writers can focus on only three or four models and *still* not get it right :( From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Mar 14 17:11:27 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:11:27 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C480@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Dave McGuire wrote: Yes, that is infuriating. I emailed a question to the manufacturer of a piece of test equipment that I have here, and the response was "that product is obsolete". Well that's interesting...I use it every day, it works great, and the company hasn't released anything better since then. Despite what corporations seem to think, true obsolescence is determined by the USERS and the CUSTOMERS, not the vendors. There's a big, big difference between "this is obsolete" and "we'd like to sell you something different now". Now, of course there's the matter of unreasonably expecting a company to spend the resources to support a product long after it has been discontinued. But again, that's not "that product is obsolete", that's "we don't make that product anymore and we can't spend the resources to support it". BIG difference. Infuriating. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Billy: I agree that "obsolete" has different meanings for different people. For you, if it still functions, then it is not obsolete. So a model A is not obsolete because it still works. But for a manufacturer, more than just supporting a product - does it still generate revenue? That is what "works" means to a business. The product may be great, it may last for 50 years. But if it doesn't generate revenue, it is obsolete. You look for functionality - OEMs look for revenue. Obsolete then has multiple meanings depending on your viewpoint. I consider the Apple II obsolete - yet my machine still works great. I think you are saying that to you, the Apple II is not obsolete. By your criteria, is there ANY machine, computer or otherwise, that is obsolete? Can you give us an example or two of an obsolete machine? This is of great interest to me, because I'm in the middle of a new market (TVs with hard drives). All hard drives made today are regarded by the manufacturers as obsolete after 5 years max. (The parts are no longer made, the interface is different, the tooling is gone, etc.) There is no PRACTICAL way to extend the obsolescent point and still stay in business. But TVs are expected to have a normal life of 15 years before becoming obsolete (in the eyes of the industry, not the user). It's a big dilemma for us. Billy From vrs at msn.com Wed Mar 14 17:11:44 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:11:44 -0700 Subject: old terminals... References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING><45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141424la21ac09r54814cca01c36a86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0e9001c76685$c0ee1360$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ethan Dicks" > Perhaps this is yet another thing better done with a microcontroller > and emulation software, but it's mostly a hardware project to take an > existing, known-compatible board from a classic product rather than to > roll one's own. I was thinking of something more like an FPGA demo board -- mine has tons of gates, memory, PS2, VGA, the serial and parallel port are no problem, etc. Then you could express the hardware of the machine in VHDL or the like, and just code in the firmware, on that hardware. A little fairly standard magic to output to the VGA port and translate from the PS2 keyboard, and you'd be done. If an additional terminal type is needed, it would be some ROM dumps and VHDL tweaks. Hey, if it can do a PDP-8, it ought to be able to emulate a VT100 :-). Vince From jwest at ezwind.net Wed Mar 14 17:11:45 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:11:45 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress Message-ID: <001301c76685$c392a680$6700a8c0@BILLING> A darlington (Q1) and a zener (D3) later... and my +15v (as well as -15v) has returned to the requisite spots on the backplane. Thanks a TON for the schematics Christian & Al, extra thanks to Al for the entire 11/45 printset!! Oh, and Tony, the description of the power supply circuit and test points was most helpfull. Thank you! I understand the supply itself, but I'm not sure I understand the control circuits just after the darlington that will shut it down. The machine now springs to life and passes all the front panel tests I would normally do. I did manual store/recall of various patterns in core. "clr pc" in loc 0 loops as does "br ." in any location. The box also passes a trap catcher program. Lastly, it passes a memory address test (puts the address of each memory location in each memory location and then verifies). Next I would like a way to test interrupts in this minimal configuration (that was where the problem was before, no matter what device interrupted it would always trap to the same address). I would assume I have to put something like an M7856 in next in order to test this. Sound like a reasonable next step? Remember, in the config I have right now I've just got 3 quad SPC slots... hex cards are not an option (yet). On another note... the power control board (5409730) was well... really poorly soldered. I'm not an expert solderer, but those joints looked awfull. Not to mention I had a difficult time getting any of the old solder to be absorbed by my solderwick. Is this a characteristic of old solder? My iron was at 750f, I'd think that'd be plenty (it is for my own new solder). Thanks for the input folks! Jay West From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Mar 14 17:21:19 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:21:19 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk Viewer In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703131312m324b385bsd47c4f92e8153fee@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703092233.l29MXfcn029797@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703142221.l2EML5n0004007@hosting.monisys.ca> > On 3/9/07, Dave Dunfield <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote: > > Necessity has been inventing again .... > > > > Would you consider adding an option to pause while writing when Track > 43 is reached? (Or would you consider that too much of a hack?) Does > ImageDisk step through the tracks just once when writing? > > I need to cable up an 8" drive to a PC to image some disks and create > some other disks. I know there are various ways to control the TG43 > signal electronically, but how about just using a toggle switch to > assert the signal, if you know when to toggle it? Thats a good idea, and I will look into adding such a function for the next update. In the meatime, you can accomplish this in another way by using the eXclude track feature. There'a a menu for it, but the command line option will let you exclude a range of tracks easier. So if you exclude 44-77 and write the first part of the disk, then set your switch, and exclude up to 43 and rewrite the disk, you should have the whole thing written with the correct TG43 inputs - note that while writing, the drive will still step (quickly) over the excluded tracks - but it won't write them. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 17:21:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:21:33 -0500 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703141521l17dd4405pf66dd304c59f305d@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If by a MAME approach you mean to build a framework for various > > specific emulator components that would be implemented separately, > > then I think that might be a good approach. One could even consider > > using real vendor ROM code for VT100-era-and-later terminals (wouldn't > > work so well for the VT52). > > Actually, yes, I was thinking along the lines of something which actually made > use of the original firmware. That quite possible isn't practical though as > presumably at least some vendors did something really oddball rather than > using an off the shelf CPU :) I don't know lots about all vendors, but in the DEC world of terminals, they used 8-bit microprocessors for the VT100 through the VT241. I _think_ the VT100-family uses an 8080, and the VT220 and VT240/241 _might_ use a Z80, but they also might use an 8085. Any of those terminals would be candidates to snarf ROM images, but one would need to know memory maps, ROM bank select schemes, how font ROMs tie into the video circuit, etc., first, but these are all knowable quantities. > Sure. I was speculating on whether some terminals had something other than a > single-tone bell, or also had mice for input etc. as those would have to be > taken into account for any framework. Hmmm, I bet a few had light-pen support. Dunno about light pens (except for, say, a VS11), but Tektronix terminals, even the later raster terminals , had coordinate input devices. Older terminals had X-Y thumb wheels, IIRC, and later ones had some sort of 2-dimensional rocker pad - like the mouse input for an iOpener, again, IIRC. You could select coordinates with locally rendered crosshairs/sighting lines, then send the coordinates to the application. I don't know about the details, only that they existed. The most I ever did with Tektronix terminals was to render the occasional canned image - I never wrote software from scratch to take advantage of their features. > Isn't that blurring the line between software and hardware a little, though? > We're only talking about a software emulation, so driving a monitor is just a > window on the screen of the real machine, just like the terminal's main > display. Or do you mean that some terminals could drive an external monitor > *independently* from the main display? (which implies our framework needs to > support multiple display devices) The VT125 allowed one to overlay its raster renderings over a video-in source, but that's not what I meant - I more meant the ability to drive a secondary monitor or a projector or some such with the same contents as the primary tube. Yes, I agree, it's more of a hardware emulation feature than a software emulation feature, and is not a show-stopper in any case. > That would sure be nice - but experience seems to be that terminal emulator > writers can focus on only three or four models and *still* not get it right :( Too true. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 17:33:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:33:00 -0500 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <0e9001c76685$c0ee1360$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141424la21ac09r54814cca01c36a86@mail.gmail.com> <0e9001c76685$c0ee1360$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703141533r5721d951pba41e2c52103c9c6@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Vincent Slyngstad <vrs at msn.com> wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > Perhaps this is yet another thing better done with a microcontroller > > and emulation software... > > I was thinking of something more like an FPGA demo board -- mine has > tons of gates, memory, PS2, VGA, the serial and parallel port are no > problem, etc. Looking at an IOB6120, that's clearly no stretch (and the VHDL is already in there for a VT52 w/PS/2 and VGA ;-) > If an additional terminal type is needed, it would be some ROM dumps > and VHDL tweaks. As long as there's room for a bunch of ROM. I've seen raster terminals with 68000s and a *lot* of 28-32-pin ROM chips. > Hey, if it can do a PDP-8, it ought to be able to emulate a VT100 :-). Entirely so. The question I have now is... what would it cost to make one of these? If it's under $100, then will have a much larger audience than if it costs $250. I spent quite a bit for an IOB6120 bag of parts, and I suppose that board as rigged to be a generic classic terminal would already be cheaper than 2-3 real classic terminals, but, as with anything non-essential, the cheaper you can make it, the larger the potential audience. Still... sounds like an interesting proposition to me. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 17:36:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:36:06 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C480@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C480@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703141536n13d4e634k93a36b7388e7fac3@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Billy Pettit <Billy.Pettit at wdc.com> wrote: > But TVs are expected to have a normal life of 15 years before becoming > obsolete (in the eyes of the industry, not the user). It's a big dilemma > for us. Try buying an analog (non-HD) TV and trying to get 15 years out of it in the US. It'll make a fine monitor for a cable box or a DVD player or a VCR, but it won't work as a TV after 2009. Would that not be "obsolete" well before 15 years? -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 14 17:41:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:41:32 -0400 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703141521l17dd4405pf66dd304c59f305d@mail.gmail.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141521l17dd4405pf66dd304c59f305d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E308EF20-ED0F-4E0C-9397-30B451E7EB6D@neurotica.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 6:21 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I don't know lots about all vendors, but in the DEC world of > terminals, they used 8-bit microprocessors for the VT100 through the > VT241. I _think_ the VT100-family uses an 8080, and the VT220 and > VT240/241 _might_ use a Z80, but they also might use an 8085. Any of > those terminals would be candidates to snarf ROM images, but one would > need to know memory maps, ROM bank select schemes, how font ROMs tie > into the video circuit, etc., first, but these are all knowable > quantities. The VT100 uses an 8085, FYI. I don't recall what the VT220/VT240 use. I have pretty much all of the DEC microprocessor-based terminals. Do you think it'd be a good idea for me to, over time, pull them out and read their ROMs for archival or reconstructive purposes? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 14 17:43:24 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:43:24 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! Message-ID: <20070314224324.XHTJ12744.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > Depends on your point of view. Absolutely. That's one of the great things about our hobby. There is enough variety of backgrounds and systems that almost every system can find a champion. I guess the Brother-type WPs fail to catch my attention because they're so much like other things I've designed or worked with. Of course, that doesn't mean I don't still have claim to the Brother we got my mother about 12 years ago. That sounded weird. Does that make it my uncle???? > The Brother floppies are interesting-- > 240K single-sided 80 (sometimes 40) track 3.5" SS2D using GCR. The > drives were really gutless wonders. IIRC, many were Z80/64180 based > systems. I've not tried to get CP/M running on one but it might well > be possible. Hmmm. There's an idea. Maybe there's more hack value than I had thought. BLS From pechter at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 17:44:38 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:44:38 -0400 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703141533r5721d951pba41e2c52103c9c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141424la21ac09r54814cca01c36a86@mail.gmail.com> <0e9001c76685$c0ee1360$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <f4eb766f0703141533r5721d951pba41e2c52103c9c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <ee5521f80703141544n4bdfb17cvcc4f4c9a8610b655@mail.gmail.com> The best thing out there for terminal emulation now is Kermit-95. On 3/14/07, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > > On 3/14/07, Vincent Slyngstad <vrs at msn.com> wrote: > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > Perhaps this is yet another thing better done with a microcontroller > > > and emulation software... > > > > I was thinking of something more like an FPGA demo board -- mine has > > tons of gates, memory, PS2, VGA, the serial and parallel port are no > > problem, etc. > > Looking at an IOB6120, that's clearly no stretch (and the VHDL is > already in there for a VT52 w/PS/2 and VGA ;-) > > > If an additional terminal type is needed, it would be some ROM dumps > > and VHDL tweaks. > > As long as there's room for a bunch of ROM. I've seen raster > terminals with 68000s and a *lot* of 28-32-pin ROM chips. > > > Hey, if it can do a PDP-8, it ought to be able to emulate a VT100 :-). > > Entirely so. The question I have now is... what would it cost to make > one of these? If it's under $100, then will have a much larger > audience than if it costs $250. I spent quite a bit for an IOB6120 > bag of parts, and I suppose that board as rigged to be a generic > classic terminal would already be cheaper than 2-3 real classic > terminals, but, as with anything non-essential, the cheaper you can > make it, the larger the potential audience. > > Still... sounds like an interesting proposition to me. > > -ethan > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 17:49:56 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:49:56 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk Viewer In-Reply-To: <200703142221.l2EML5n0004007@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703092233.l29MXfcn029797@hosting.monisys.ca> <1e1fc3e90703131312m324b385bsd47c4f92e8153fee@mail.gmail.com> <200703142221.l2EML5n0004007@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703141549g7ac7929aw73f96f6a8424f272@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Dave Dunfield <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote: > In the meatime, you can accomplish this in another way by using the > eXclude track feature. There'a a menu for it, but the command line option > will let you exclude a range of tracks easier. So if you exclude 44-77 and > write the first part of the disk, then set your switch, and exclude up to > 43 and rewrite the disk, you should have the whole thing written with the > correct TG43 inputs - note that while writing, the drive will still step > (quickly) over the excluded tracks - but it won't write them. > > Dave > Thanks for the tip that there is already a way to do this. Time to get going and finally build up an 8" floppy cable. Fortunately I have some 50-pin IDC card edge connectors and ribbon cable so I don't need to resort to more creative methods to do this. -Glen From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Mar 14 17:58:58 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:58:58 -0700 Subject: SWTPC craze Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Richard wrote: Dude. 10 years ago I don't know if this "hobby" was on anyone's radar. Did ebay even exist 10 years ago? At any rate, 10 years seems like such a long time for this hobby that I don't know how you could compare 10 years ago to now. Billy writes: Oh come on! SWTPC kits were all the rage 30 years ago. Ever see one of their calculators? Ever use a KIM or SYM? 10 years is for the newbies to the hobby. Long before eBay, we had Ham Fests, fleas markets, government auctions, bankruptcy sales, etc. Some very serious scrounging and repairing took place. Maybe there were no terminals in mile high piles. But we sought out Teletypes, Flexowriters, Dura Machines, etc. I guess it hinges on what you mean by "hobby". Before the 1975 Mark 8 article, there were clubs around the US and England for homebrew computers. Most used TTL. Many had home made ROMS made from diode arrays. Quite a few copied instruction sets from DEC, DG so they could use the software. But these were true computers and true computer hobbyists. If you were extremely lucky, you found an entire computer. My first PDP-8 was dropped off a truck and sold by the pound by the insurance company. This was well before microprocessors were available. My first home built used DTL logic and serial shift registers for memory, circa 1965. And I had several friends who also were active computer hobbyists and built their own designs. Okay, so we're old farts and now that the dinosaurs went extent, we don't count as part of the hobby any more. But dammit, 10 years is nothing. I know a few other survivors who have been playing with home computers for 50 years! Billy From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 18:12:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:12:28 -0700 Subject: 8" drive variations In-Reply-To: <45F84003.4020205@harrells.net> References: <m1HRCiO-000J0gC@p850ug1>, <45F7AFBF.22308.513DCD5F@cclist.sydex.com>, <45F84003.4020205@harrells.net> Message-ID: <45F81EEC.28409.8A5B0E@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Mar 2007 at 14:33, info wrote: > Yes those are the ones. Thanks Here's what I've got. DC Power is supplied through the 40 pin header that also carries the interface signals. (AC power is supplied through a separate connector). Be careful not to insert the connector "backwards!" When I talk about SA-800 pins, I'm referring to the corresponding pin on the Shugart SA-800 50 pin connector. 1. All even pins are ground. 2. +5 is applied to pins 1 and 3 3. +24 is applied through pins 9, 11, and 13 4. This drive has a single SELECT/ line on pin 15. That is, there is no address decoding circuitry for multiple drive selects on this model. So, you'd connect pin 15 to one of SA-800 pins 26, 28, 30 or 32 for DS1-4, respectively. 5. DIRECTION/ is pin 5 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 34 6. STEP is pin 7 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 36 7. TRACK 00/ is pin 17 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 42 8. HEAD LOAD/ is pin 19 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 18 9. READY/ is pin 21 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 22 10. TG43/ is pin 23 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 2 11. INDEX/ is pin 25 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 20 12. SECTOR/ (for hard sectored diskettes) is pin 27 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 24 13. The Calcomp has WRITE ENABLED/ status on pin 29; you'll need to invert this and gate with the SELECT/ signal with an OC gate and connect it to SA-800 pin 44 (WRITE PROTECT/) if you want write-enable sensing to work. Otherwise just terminate SA-800 pin 44 with a 150 ohm pullup. 14. WRITE DATA/ is pin 31 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 38 15. WRITE GATE/ is pin 33 and corresonds to SA-800 pin 40 16. I'm assuming that you'll use your own data separator, not the on- drive one. RAW DATA/ is pin 37 and corresponds to SA-800 pin 46. 17. Leave pins 35 (SEP DATA/) and 39 (PLO SYNC/) NC. That should do it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 14 18:19:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:19:01 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703141536n13d4e634k93a36b7388e7fac3@mail.gmail.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C480@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <f4eb766f0703141536n13d4e634k93a36b7388e7fac3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F82075.6645.905990@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Mar 2007 at 17:36, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Try buying an analog (non-HD) TV and trying to get 15 years out of it > in the US. It'll make a fine monitor for a cable box or a DVD player > or a VCR, but it won't work as a TV after 2009. > > Would that not be "obsolete" well before 15 years? I'm willing to wager that my 1976 Sony TV will still pick up off-the- air broadcasts in 2010 and 2011. Seems that our Great Minds in Foggy Bottom hadn't quite thought the whole thing through well enough and the set-top converter box propsal is mired in the goo. An extension of the deadline is viewed as a near-certainty. Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Mar 14 18:22:17 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <E71E2AB9-9134-44C2-882D-7A4F3CB58DC1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070314232217.5D67F58248@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Dave McGuire > > Now, of course there's the matter of unreasonably expecting a > company to spend the resources to support a product long after it has > been discontinued. But again, that's not "that product is obsolete", > that's "we don't make that product anymore and we can't spend the > resources to support it". BIG difference. > That's why we have classicmp! :) (Well, at least for vintage computer support...) Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 14 18:21:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:21:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <001301c76685$c392a680$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Mar 14, 7 05:11:45 pm Message-ID: <m1HRcmK-000J12C@p850ug1> > > A darlington (Q1) and a zener (D3) later... and my +15v (as well as -15v) > has returned to the requisite spots on the backplane. > > Thanks a TON for the schematics Christian & Al, extra thanks to Al for the > entire 11/45 printset!! Oh, and Tony, the description of the power supply > circuit and test points was most helpfull. Thank you! I understand the > supply itself, but I'm not sure I understand the control circuits just after > the darlington that will shut it down. I've not got the schematic in front of me at the moment (I can get it out qgain if necessary), but IIRC, that shutdown circuit is quite simple. If the 'spare' DCLO signal is asserted (low), then Q2 and Q3 turn on, that effectively shorts out the zener, and reduces the base voltage of the darlington to close-to-0. That then shuts the supply down, of course. > > The machine now springs to life and passes all the front panel tests I would > normally do. I did manual store/recall of various patterns in core. "clr pc" > in loc 0 loops as does "br ." in any location. The box also passes a trap > catcher program. Lastly, it passes a memory address test (puts the address > of each memory location in each memory location and then verifies). > > Next I would like a way to test interrupts in this minimal configuration > (that was where the problem was before, no matter what device interrupted it > would always trap to the same address). I would assume I have to put > something like an M7856 in next in order to test this. Sound like a Do you havea KW11-L line time clock in the system? That's a possible source of interruots. But I think you need at least 2 different interrupting devices (a DL11 counts as 2, since the transmitter and receiver sides generate different vectors). Then you can be sure that not all interrupts go through the same place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 14 17:32:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:32:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <C21C8CF8.881D%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> from "Adrian Graham" at Mar 13, 7 05:16:40 pm Message-ID: <m1HRc15-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > One trick I found, which I was surprised at, was that you seem to be able to > > 'cat' several mpeg files together into one and a player will happily play the > > entirety of the subsequent file. Weird; I mean most formats expect a single > > header and some data, but mpeg seems to be able to cope just fine with lots of > > header and data segments. > > But by cat-ing several mpegs together you DO end up with a single header, > IIRC it's why the cat command exists in the first place, remember that all > it does is concatenate multiples to a single. A side effect is that you I'm having great difficulty understanding this. AFAIK the cat(1) command doesn't have any knowledge of MPEG (or any other) file format. So it does the same thing with MPEG files that it does with all other files, namely copy the bytes to stdout. So if you have files of the form <header><data>, and if you then cat 2 of them together, surely the output is <header1><data1><header2><data2>. And not <modified header><data1><data2> or something like that. In other words catting 2 files will not produce a single header. What am I missing? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 14 18:01:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:01:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <001201c76646$498a4210$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Mar 14, 7 09:37:26 am Message-ID: <m1HRcTj-000J15C@p850ug1> > > Brent wrote... > >> I picked a derelict/beat-up CT-64 out of the surplus/discard pile about > >> 10 > >> years ago. Cleaned up and rewired it's in excellent condition. > > To which Richard replied.... > > Dude. 10 years ago I don't know if this "hobby" was on anyone's radar. > I beg to differ. There's quite a few listmembers here that were active in > the hobby 10+ years ago. I'm also certain there were a good number of people FWIW, in a couple of month's time I'll be 'celebrating' 21 years of computer collecting. I was certainly very active 10 years ago. -tony From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Mar 14 18:25:11 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:25:11 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C482@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> ? Ethan Dicks wrote: On 3/14/07, Billy Pettit <Billy.Pettit at wdc.com <http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk> > wrote: > But TVs are expected to have a normal life of 15 years before becoming > obsolete (in the eyes of the industry, not the user). It's a big dilemma > for us. Try buying an analog (non-HD) TV and trying to get 15 years out of it in the US. It'll make a fine monitor for a cable box or a DVD player or a VCR, but it won't work as a TV after 2009. Would that not be "obsolete" well before 15 years? -ethan To me, certainly. But then I regard any analog TV as obsolete already, even if it is still in production. And I don't know anybody trying to put a hard drive in an analog TV. It really serves no useful purpose. Billy From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 14 18:31:26 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:31:26 -0700 Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <001301c76685$c392a680$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001301c76685$c392a680$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45F885CE.5040604@shiresoft.com> Jay West wrote: > > Next I would like a way to test interrupts in this minimal > configuration (that was where the problem was before, no matter what > device interrupted it would always trap to the same address). I would > assume I have to put something like an M7856 in next in order to test > this. Sound like a reasonable next step? Remember, in the config I > have right now I've just got 3 quad SPC slots... hex cards are not an > option (yet). > One of the easiest things to do is to use the LTC (on the M7856) and write a small program that counts at 60Hz (or any sub-multiple) on each "tic". The counter (if in R0) will be displayed on the console lights when you're in a WAIT. One thing you want to check is to make sure that your backplane is *not* wired to have an M787 be the LTC (mainly for the grant chain). Otherwise, you'll have to use the M787 and disable the LTC function on the M7856. -- TTFN - Guy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 14 18:46:49 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:46:49 -0500 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <m1HRcTj-000J15C@p850ug1> References: <m1HRcTj-000J15C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <45F88969.5020200@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > FWIW, in a couple of month's time I'll be 'celebrating' 21 years of > computer collecting. I was certainly very active 10 years ago. On a Cambridge uni email address, according to our first contact in '96... From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 14 19:28:54 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:28:54 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress References: <001301c76685$c392a680$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F885CE.5040604@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <001301c76698$ec754900$6700a8c0@BILLING> Guy wrote.... > One of the easiest things to do is to use the LTC (on the M7856) and write > a small program that counts at 60Hz (or any sub-multiple) on each "tic". > The counter (if in R0) will be displayed on the console lights when you're > in a WAIT. Or just have the M7856 interrupt on a single character input. No software required, I think this could all be set up from the front panel. As I recall, the problem was that the moment any device interrupted, the system would always trap to location X. No matter which device was interrupting. I forget what "X" was... I think it may have been 3. But at the same time, it would boot xxdp from an RL pack just fine so the system must have been SOMEWHAT sane. > One thing you want to check is to make sure that your backplane is *not* > wired to have an M787 be the LTC (mainly for the grant chain). Otherwise, > you'll have to use the M787 and disable the LTC function on the M7856. I don't think this system ever had a M787, it doesn't now in any case. I think I checked the backplane wiring for this once (a jumper needs to be added or removed when the M787 is installed) and I think I found it was set up to not have a M787. I will double check this now. Along those same lines... The system did have a KW11-P. According to the docs the LTC needs to be connected to that slot for the KW11-P to use. I should also see if it was wired for that. Isn't there some issue like you can't have multiple cards connected to the LTC? Something about overloading the circuit that generates it in the power supply? I recall something about it being very critical no more than ONE M7856 was set for LTC use. If that is the case, I assume you couldn't also have the KW11-P set to use LTC if one of the M7856's was set to use it? Foggy memory here... Jay From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 14 19:58:57 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:58:57 -0700 Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <001301c76698$ec754900$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001301c76685$c392a680$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F885CE.5040604@shiresoft.com> <001301c76698$ec754900$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45F89A51.3060606@shiresoft.com> Jay West wrote: > > > Along those same lines... The system did have a KW11-P. According to > the docs the LTC needs to be connected to that slot for the KW11-P to > use. I should also see if it was wired for that. Isn't there some > issue like you can't have multiple cards connected to the LTC? > Something about overloading the circuit that generates it in the power > supply? I recall something about it being very critical no more than > ONE M7856 was set for LTC use. If that is the case, I assume you > couldn't also have the KW11-P set to use LTC if one of the M7856's was > set to use it? Foggy memory here... > Yes, only one thing on the LTC. There's a transistor in the power supply that is "unhappy" (ie you'll be opening up that power supply again) if you put more than one load on the LTC line. -- TTFN - Guy From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Mar 14 20:15:54 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:15:54 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing Message-ID: <914891fd5307cee7b6e98f4e41d7b71e@valleyimplants.com> > Message: 15 > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:36:06 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <D8CAA477-9A46-4B00-8447-CAC38C4AC832 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > On Mar 13, 2007, at 2:45 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> apophis$ which finger >>> /bin/finger >>> apophis$ which talk >>> /bin/talk >>> ...looks to me like they're still there. >> >> Yes, actually try to use them across networks. There are these >> funny little things on the outside of most organizations called >> "firewalls", maybe you've heard of them. > > There is absolutely no need to be a smartass. I make a living > running fairly large networks...and not for clueless organizations > who depend on the crutch of a firewall to implement a secure > network. I use "talk" fairly frequently, it works just fine. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL I have seen some ontopic books (UNIX, 10 years old now) that strongly recommend disabling finger to prevent unauthorized types from finding likely targets among the accounts. Since then, finger services (such as cfingerd) have become less of an issue because you can limit some information, but it's likely that the old maxim still holds, as well as the new one: if you don't positively need it than don't turn it on. Too bad, though: 'finger' was nice when you wanted to get an e-mail address that you weren't certain of. (after the demise of finger in general circulation I used to connect to port 25 and try a couple of vrfys- can't do that anymore in most places, but it's a "legitimate" need for port 25, right?) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 14 20:54:06 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: fingerd was Re: ftp archives disappearing In-Reply-To: <914891fd5307cee7b6e98f4e41d7b71e@valleyimplants.com> from Scott Quinn at "Mar 14, 7 06:15:54 pm" Message-ID: <200703150154.l2F1s6gO016268@floodgap.com> > I have seen some ontopic books (UNIX, 10 years old now) that strongly > recommend disabling finger to prevent unauthorized types from finding > likely targets among the accounts. Since then, finger services (such as > cfingerd) have become less of an issue because you can limit some > information, but it's likely that the old maxim still holds, as well as > the new one: if you don't positively need it than don't turn it on. Too > bad, though: 'finger' was nice when you wanted to get an e-mail address > that you weren't certain of. So write one that doesn't give away the store. I did; it's just a Perl script hooked up to inetd with some logging. finger is so simple it can barely be considered a "protocol." -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Critics are the unpaid guardians of my soul. -- E. Stanley Jones ----------- From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Mar 14 21:07:08 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:07:08 -0400 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net> add one more place to that list-- Thrift stores. I found an ASR-33 once back in '82 =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Billy Pettit wrote: > Long before eBay, we had Ham > Fests, fleas markets, government auctions, bankruptcy sales, etc. > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 14 21:13:06 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADDS terminal trash talk Message-ID: <200703150213.l2F2D6U7012756@floodgap.com> So, Jay and Richard, er, Bidder 6 and Bidder 1, are you guys going to put down some real money on that ADDS terminal or just dance around all night? ;) (noticing the back and forth on the top of the bidder list) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Apparently I am not very good at being tricky. -- John Hughes -------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 21:22:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:22:22 -0500 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703141922h317d313et93067f617c4c6d05@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Dan <ragooman at comcast.net> wrote: > > add one more place to that list-- Thrift stores. > I found an ASR-33 once back in '82 Wow! Nice find. I've gotten some interesting things at Thrifts, but never anything that cool. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 14 21:29:51 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:29:51 -0400 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703141922h317d313et93067f617c4c6d05@mail.gmail.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net> <f4eb766f0703141922h317d313et93067f617c4c6d05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8E6DED75-CBE6-4EA0-BCF2-A18938A8D8A2@neurotica.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 10:22 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> add one more place to that list-- Thrift stores. >> I found an ASR-33 once back in '82 > > Wow! Nice find. I've gotten some interesting things at Thrifts, but > never anything that cool. A Cray YMP-EL98 apparently passed through a thrift store in Texas a few years ago. The closest thing to that I've found in thrift stores around here is stinky old ladies' shoes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 14 21:31:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:31:26 -0500 Subject: ADDS terminal trash talk References: <200703150213.l2F2D6U7012756@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <010f01c766aa$091ce2f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Cameron wrote... > So, Jay and Richard, er, Bidder 6 and Bidder 1, are you guys going to put > down some real money on that ADDS terminal or just dance around all night? > ;) > (noticing the back and forth on the top of the bidder list) Not I, I left the action long ago when I saw that richard wanted it badly. Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 14 23:00:38 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:00:38 -0700 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <8E6DED75-CBE6-4EA0-BCF2-A18938A8D8A2@neurotica.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net> <f4eb766f0703141922h317d313et93067f617c4c6d05@mail.gmail.com> <8E6DED75-CBE6-4EA0-BCF2-A18938A8D8A2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F8C4E6.3090306@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > A Cray YMP-EL98 apparently passed through a thrift store in Texas a > few years ago. The closest thing to that I've found in thrift stores > around here is stinky old ladies' shoes. Out here old monitors and old ink-jet printers show up. > -Dave > PS. Yes the stinky shoes too are around. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 14 22:04:47 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADDS terminal trash talk In-Reply-To: <010f01c766aa$091ce2f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Mar 14, 7 09:31:26 pm" Message-ID: <200703150304.l2F34l3i014412@floodgap.com> > Not I, I left the action long ago when I saw that richard wanted it badly. So, Richard, did you get it? $589 + shipping ... whoo. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group ------------ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 14 22:15:33 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:15:33 -0500 Subject: ADDS terminal trash talk References: <200703150304.l2F34l3i014412@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <012601c766b0$31c6fc30$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Cameron wrote... > So, Richard, did you get it? $589 + shipping ... whoo. Unless he has multiple ebay id's, I don't believe that is him that won. Jay From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Mar 14 22:21:14 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:21:14 -0700 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <200703142021.14522.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 14 March 2007 15:58, Billy Pettit wrote: > Richard wrote: > > Dude. 10 years ago I don't know if this "hobby" was on anyone's > radar. Did ebay even exist 10 years ago? At any rate, 10 years seems > like such a long time for this hobby that I don't know how you could > compare 10 years ago to now. > > > Billy writes: --snip-- > Okay, so we're old farts and now that the dinosaurs went extent, we don't > count as part of the hobby any more. But dammit, 10 years is nothing. I > know a few other survivors who have been playing with home computers for 50 > years! Count me in as an old fart as well... I had the following home/hobby computers: IBM 609 (CPU only - hacked keyboard and display) in 1963 CDC-160 in 1967 PDP-8/L in 1971 PDP-8/I in 1972 PDP-12 in 1975 Built Digital Group and lots of S-100 bus systems in the late 70's to the mid 80's. Went to just about every early Tranton Computerfest and a few West Coast Computer Faire's (in San Francisco). So some of us have have been computer hobbiest's for more years than we'd like to remember ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 14 22:30:38 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: trying to think of a terminal brand Message-ID: <200703150330.l2F3UcQq018314@floodgap.com> The ADDS auction made me try to remember the serial terminals (connected via Xylogics Annexes) that I used at UC San Diego. There were two: big boxy green ones sitting under H&SS lecture hall, and then the orange screen ones in AP&M 2337. The green screen ones were good solid VT-100 emulation, with double height and width support, but not a whole lot else. They were all-in-one white units with black keys and a very boxy form factor. The orange screen ones could do Tektronix 4014 emulation and had a small configuration menu you could get at with the function keys. I seem to remember the model number having four digits in it, and they were grey with detached keyboards. Anyone have any idea what model terminals these were? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Aibohphobia, the fear of palindromes. -- Brian Braunschweiger -------------- From vrs at msn.com Wed Mar 14 22:33:30 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:33:30 -0700 Subject: old terminals... References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING><45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk><f4eb766f0703141424la21ac09r54814cca01c36a86@mail.gmail.com><0e9001c76685$c0ee1360$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <f4eb766f0703141533r5721d951pba41e2c52103c9c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0eb801c766b2$b420f8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> >> I was thinking of something more like an FPGA demo board -- mine has >> tons of gates, memory, PS2, VGA, the serial and parallel port are no >> problem, etc. > > Looking at an IOB6120, that's clearly no stretch (and the VHDL is > already in there for a VT52 w/PS/2 and VGA ;-) Cool! I should go look at that :). >> If an additional terminal type is needed, it would be some ROM dumps >> and VHDL tweaks. > > As long as there's room for a bunch of ROM. I've seen raster > terminals with 68000s and a *lot* of 28-32-pin ROM chips. Well, there's 16Mbit of flash and 256Mbit of SDRAM in mine. (The PDP-8 is actually implemented with the 32Kx12 of block RAM in the FPGA itself, and doesn't use any of that. Likewise, it may be possible to represent some or all of a terminal's ROM in the FPGA itself.) >> Hey, if it can do a PDP-8, it ought to be able to emulate a VT100 :-). > > Entirely so. The question I have now is... what would it cost to make > one of these? If it's under $100, then will have a much larger > audience than if it costs $250. I spent quite a bit for an IOB6120 > bag of parts, and I suppose that board as rigged to be a generic > classic terminal would already be cheaper than 2-3 real classic > terminals, but, as with anything non-essential, the cheaper you can > make it, the larger the potential audience. > > Still... sounds like an interesting proposition to me. Well, I think I paid about $200 for mine, but OTOH, it seems like it would pretty much do the job, right out of the box. (Except for the "small matter" of programming.) Vince From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 22:43:01 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:43:01 -0700 Subject: ADDS terminal trash talk In-Reply-To: <012601c766b0$31c6fc30$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200703150304.l2F34l3i014412@floodgap.com> <012601c766b0$31c6fc30$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703142043v302fbdeeu90a3350a9347d849@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Cameron wrote... > > So, Richard, did you get it? $589 + shipping ... whoo. > > Unless he has multiple ebay id's, I don't believe that is him that won. > randomz3 was the winner. who ever that is seems to have deep pockets. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 22:42:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:42:50 -0500 Subject: Classic computing as a hobby when rocks were still soft (was Re: SWTPC craze) Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703142042u481f5587s9c25300031b0f31c@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote: > Count me in as an old fart as well... > > I had the following home/hobby computers: > > PDP-8/L in 1971 > PDP-8/I in 1972 Wow... those were relatively fresh, then. My recollection was that a PDP-8/L was $10K USD in 1967 or 1968. Any peripherals, or just TTY? > PDP-12 in 1975 Very nice. I've seen one up close, but never got to play. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 22:45:17 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:45:17 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3A_Introduction_And_Questions_About_Media_Pres?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ervation=A0_=22MostlyDecStuff=22?= In-Reply-To: <200703131336.41804.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <BAY138-F3933847074F8E0A9D53A91A3720@phx.gbl> Hi There is at least one SA851 on eBay right now. One also just sold for about $30. Dwight >From: Francesca Smith <fsmith at ladylinux.com> >On Tuesday 13 March 2007 12:47:04 pm cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Dwight Wrote .. > > > Are you looking for single sided or double sided? If single sided, > > the SA800's that were on ebay should work fine. If double sided, > > you'll need that SA851. These have two heads. > > If your connector is a 50 pin, you need a the SA800 and SA851's. > > The SA900's have a 44 pin edge connector but are otherwise > > similar to the 800's. > >Double sided would be preferred since It would be more flexible in the long >run. Although I could get by with a single sided drive if I had to. I will >read up on this. I have come across some tables of the differences of each >type of 8 inch drive but nothing all encompassing enough to give me a good >decision. > > > >-- >Kindest Regards, > >Francesca Smith > >"No Problems Only Solutions" >Lady Linux Internet Services >Baltimore, Maryland 21217 _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 22:47:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:47:52 -0500 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <0eb801c766b2$b420f8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141424la21ac09r54814cca01c36a86@mail.gmail.com> <0e9001c76685$c0ee1360$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <f4eb766f0703141533r5721d951pba41e2c52103c9c6@mail.gmail.com> <0eb801c766b2$b420f8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703142047y53fdec75v499be164e77b13f0@mail.gmail.com> On 3/14/07, Vincent Slyngstad <vrs at msn.com> wrote: > > Looking at an IOB6120, that's clearly no stretch (and the VHDL is > > already in there for a VT52 w/PS/2 and VGA ;-) > > Cool! I should go look at that :). http://www.jkearney.com/sbc6120/ > Well, there's 16Mbit of flash and 256Mbit of SDRAM in mine. Hmm... seems like enough to load several implementations at once (like multiple Wyse or multiple VT100-family terminals) - just build in some way to switch models... > Well, I think I paid about $200 for mine, but OTOH, it seems like it > would pretty much do the job, right out of the box. (Except for the > "small matter" of programming.) Programming doesn't cost the second user anything ;-) Hmm... $200 for an assembled board with those characteristics doesn't sound _too_ bad, but there's still the matter of buffers/drivers for off-board I/O with TTL-ish devices, plus connector cost - I can see it running closer to $220-$250 for something that's ready to program and use. That might be in the acceptable range for a number of folks. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 14 23:36:59 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:36:59 -0400 Subject: Upgraded my VAXstation 3520... Message-ID: <200703150036.59326.pat@computer-refuge.org> The VAXstation 3520 (and 3540) are dual and quad processor pedestal vaxes (BA213-sized chassis) that DEC breifly tried to sell, with a weird (only used on those models) processor/memory bus called the "M bus". I was hoping that I could get more than 4 CPUs to function in the machine, and after a lot of effort (module order did matter!), I got some encouraging results. I bet no one else here can claim that they've got a "VAXserver 3560"... ------------------------ KA60 V1.2 F..E..D..C..B..A..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1..0 7 01010004 L2003 3 ? V1.3 1 SSC 00000001 2 DZ 00031200 ? 3 NI 19210770 ? 4 SCSI 00000901 5 SYS 00000001 Tests completed. 08-E1,P1 0B-E1,P1 0C-E1,P1 0F-E1,P1 14-E1,P1 17-E1,P1 08 <snipped OpenVMS 7.2 boot> $ show cpu VS3200, a VAXserver 3560 Multiprocessing is ENABLED. Streamlined synchronization image loaded. Minimum multiprocessing revision levels: CPU = 3 FBIC = 1. PRIMARY CPU = 08 Active CPUs: 08 11 12 15 20 23 Configured CPUs: 08 11 12 15 20 23 --------------------------------------------- Note that "VS3200" is the name of the system as the disk was supposed to go into a VAXstation 3200. Also, the system doesn't seem to be completely reliable in bringing up all 6 processors, but that may be related to a firmware version mis-match between processor boards (and/or timing issues when you've got 3 CPU boards). I set out to try to do this 3 years ago now, and finally have managed to obtain enough spare parts (via ebay) to try it out. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Mar 14 23:45:27 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <01C7669B.55ACCAE0@mse-d03> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:35:19 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? <snippage> ... >The massive influx of clueless morons has changed the >Internet considerably, to be sure, but the core of what it was is >still there and still works just fine, IF you choose to make use of it. -------- Well, I think that the biggest change, at least in a negative sense, is the malware and security problems so prevalent today, and in my opinion many of the people ultimately responsible for the trojans and virii and keeping the spam ahead of the filters are not clueless morons at all. In fact, they're probably a lot like you, computer literate, elitist and contemptuous of anyone who chooses to invest his or her time and intelligence in areas other than the arcane intricacies of computers and just uses them as tools (and runs Microsoft software of course ;-). ===================== On Mar 14, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> (I had exactly the same issues with VCRs the other day - they're >> still useful *to me*, but planet-wide they're dead as a dodo, >> superseded by DVD and PVR technology, so I had to bite my tongue >> when someone declared them obsolete :-) Dave: > Indeed, I know how you feel...the same thing happens to me with a >few things that I use that just happen to be "not new" (which, to the >99% of our society that doesn't think, now means "old"). Jules: >> [and there's a real danger with people confusing obsolescence with >> "no longer any good" - to my mind they're often totally different >> things] Dave: > Yes, that is infuriating. I emailed a question to the >manufacturer of a piece of test equipment that I have here, and the >response was "that product is obsolete". Well that's interesting...I >use it every day, it works great, and the company hasn't released >anything better since then. > Despite what corporations seem to think, true obsolescence is >determined by the USERS and the CUSTOMERS, not the vendors. There's >a big, big difference between "this is obsolete" and "we'd like to >sell you something different now". > Now, of course there's the matter of unreasonably expecting a >company to spend the resources to support a product long after it has >been discontinued. But again, that's not "that product is obsolete", >that's "we don't make that product anymore and we can't spend the >resources to support it". BIG difference. > Infuriating. > -Dave ----------------------------------- Sorry to hear that the word "obsolete" troubles you both so. As one of the 99% that (in Dave's opinion) doesn't think, I'd certainly consider something that's no longer manufactured or supported "obsolete" and, in comparison with something new, even "old." Whether it's still useful or, like Tony, you or I accept or even prefer its limitations in the current context and continue to use an AT to browse the 'Web is not really relevant. Sorry to say, it's the rest of us who prefer the convenience and extra features of DVDs & PVRs and enjoy full colour and motion video and audio on the 'Web (and of course the manufacturers who give us what we want) who decide what's obsolete. And you should be grateful: if DECs, HPs etc. weren't considered obsolete you probably wouldn't be able to afford 'em. And Jules, the next time someone you know buys a DVD player to replace that "obsolete" VCR, instead of biting your tongue just take the VCR off their hands and smile because you just got a free spare. m From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 15 00:02:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:02:52 -0600 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:55:01 -0500. <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45F86F35.5080107 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> writes: > Actually, yes, I was thinking along the lines of something which actually mad e > use of the original firmware. That quite possible isn't practical though as > presumably at least some vendors did something really oddball rather than > using an off the shelf CPU :) The weirder terminals don't use a CPU at all. They use SSI/MSI TTL logic. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 15 00:04:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:04:14 -0600 Subject: ADDS terminal trash talk In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:13:06 -0700. <200703150213.l2F2D6U7012756@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <E1HRi8M-0000HT-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <200703150213.l2F2D6U7012756 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> writes: > So, Jay and Richard, er, Bidder 6 and Bidder 1, are you guys going to put > down some real money on that ADDS terminal or just dance around all night? ;) > (noticing the back and forth on the top of the bidder list) I would have put down more cash, but honestly I am out of town at a conference and didn't really have the ability to bid up-to-the-last-minute on this one. A shame as it boiled down to just me and the winner at the end. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 15 00:08:41 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:08:41 -0700 Subject: SWTPC craze References: <E1HRTiP-0004fp-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45F8D4DB.D8355230@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > In article <45F76433.87F015DD at cs.ubc.ca>, > Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> writes: > > > I picked a derelict/beat-up CT-64 out of the surplus/discard pile about 10 > > years ago. Cleaned up and rewired it's in excellent condition. > > Dude. 10 years ago I don't know if this "hobby" was on anyone's > radar. Did ebay even exist 10 years ago? At any rate, 10 years seems > like such a long time for this hobby that I don't know how you could > compare 10 years ago to now. A then-vs-now value comparison was not intended, just a statement of the way it happened. It may be that there are more people in this hobby today, but I don't really think the level of awareness or consideration of the hobby outside the hobby is much different. Given the same circumstances (source,location,appearance) for the one I found, even today I expect it would still have ended up in the surplus/discard pile. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 15 00:16:21 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:16:21 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <C21DFD47.88FA%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C21DFD47.88FA%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F8D6A5.7090301@oldskool.org> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 14/3/07 18:59, "Jim Leonard" <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: > >> Adrian Graham wrote: >>> But by cat-ing several mpegs together you DO end up with a single header, >> No, you end up with an invalid target with multiple beginning-of-file >> headers throughout the file. > > Ah, my bad. I naturally assumed that cat would strip those off and just have How would cat know what part of the stream was the header? Were you talking about *nix cat or some other cat? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 15 01:42:30 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:42:30 -0700 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45F8EAD6.9070607@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > The weirder terminals don't use a CPU at all. They use SSI/MSI TTL > logic. I thought the weird ones used Delay lines and/or Core Memory. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 15 00:46:45 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADDS terminal trash talk In-Reply-To: <E1HRi8M-0000HT-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HRi8M-0000HT-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703142245260.29466@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Richard wrote: > In article <200703150213.l2F2D6U7012756 at floodgap.com>, > Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> writes: > > > So, Jay and Richard, er, Bidder 6 and Bidder 1, are you guys going to put > > down some real money on that ADDS terminal or just dance around all night? ;) > > (noticing the back and forth on the top of the bidder list) > > I would have put down more cash, but honestly I am out of town at a > conference and didn't really have the ability to bid > up-to-the-last-minute on this one. A shame as it boiled down to just > me and the winner at the end. If you want an ADDS VP90 sans keyboard, I've got one for you. See http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/view.cfm?ad=2855. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 15 00:52:49 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: teletype model 43 value Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703142251190.29466@helios.cs.csubak.edu> The teletype model 43 appears much more often on Ebay than the ASR33 (which I've never seen there). Is there anything about the model 43 to make it worth acquiring? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 15 02:13:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:13:18 -0700 Subject: teletype model 43 value In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703142251190.29466@helios.cs.csubak.edu> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703142251190.29466@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <45F8F20E.8050407@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > The teletype model 43 appears much more often on Ebay than the ASR33 > (which I've never seen there). Is there anything about the model 43 to > make it worth acquiring? A quick google indicates it is your standard basic 110/300 baud remote printing terminal. From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Thu Mar 15 01:28:41 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:28:41 -0400 Subject: Netframe collectors? In-Reply-To: <45F5F378.8030101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOCEIOEKAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> I have always been interested in getting an earlier NetFrame to play around with. Do you have something in particular you are looking to unload? Depending on where you are I could be very interested. Greg Manuel > -----Original Message----- > From: Curt - Atari Museum [mailto:curt at atarimuseum.com] > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 8:43 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Netframe collectors? > > > Does anyone here collect Netframes? > > Not the later Micron crap, I'm talking about the early Netframes like > the little mushroom unit and the 3' monolith units that ran Novell and > you connected to admin it via a Novell SPX client. > > > Also looking for anyone who collects Tricord ES7000 and ES8000 servers. > > > > > Curt > > > > > From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 15 01:32:52 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:32:52 -0700 Subject: old terminals... References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING><45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk><f4eb766f0703141424la21ac09r54814cca01c36a86@mail.gmail.com><0e9001c76685$c0ee1360$6600a8c0@vrsxp><f4eb766f0703141533r5721d951pba41e2c52103c9c6@mail.gmail.com><0eb801c766b2$b420f8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <f4eb766f0703142047y53fdec75v499be164e77b13f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ef301c766cb$c290eb20$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > On 3/14/07, Vincent Slyngstad <vrs at msn.com> wrote: >> > Looking at an IOB6120, that's clearly no stretch (and the VHDL is >> > already in there for a VT52 w/PS/2 and VGA ;-) >> >> Cool! I should go look at that :). > > http://www.jkearney.com/sbc6120/ Sure enough, there is a GPL version of the VHDL for the VT52 there. >> Well, there's 16Mbit of flash and 256Mbit of SDRAM in mine. > > Hmm... seems like enough to load several implementations at once (like > multiple Wyse or multiple VT100-family terminals) - just build in some > way to switch models... Sure, and there are a few tactile switches on the board (and of course a boatload of potential input pins). >> Well, I think I paid about $200 for mine, but OTOH, it seems like it >> would pretty much do the job, right out of the box. (Except for the >> "small matter" of programming.) > > Programming doesn't cost the second user anything ;-) > > Hmm... $200 for an assembled board with those characteristics doesn't > sound _too_ bad, but there's still the matter of buffers/drivers for > off-board I/O with TTL-ish devices, plus connector cost - I can see it > running closer to $220-$250 for something that's ready to program and > use. That might be in the acceptable range for a number of folks. I have my XESS board plugged into a breadboard, which keeps the pins off the table, and makes room for a MAX232, some caps and resistors, and a DE-9 connector for the serial link. It's powered by a regulated 5V brick from JameCo. (Other boards might well come with the MAX232.) It shouldn't take much external stuff, as the outputs are LSTTL compatible, and the inputs nearly so (but mine are not 5V tolerant). I also ran the LEDs in a binary clock off the outputs without problems, with just current limit resistors in the common row paths. But I basically agree with the $220-$250 estimate. It isn't too hard to burn an extra $20 here or there, by the time you added a brick, a nice box, etc. Vince From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 15 01:43:42 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:43:42 -0700 Subject: teletype model 43 value References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703142251190.29466@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <45F8F20E.8050407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0f1101c766cd$463f9790$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "woodelf" <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > David Griffith wrote: >> The teletype model 43 appears much more often on Ebay than the ASR33 >> (which I've never seen there). Is there anything about the model 43 to >> make it worth acquiring? > > A quick google indicates it is your standard basic 110/300 baud > remote printing terminal. There is an available ASR option that I occasionally see on eBay. (It's basically a reader/punch that bolts onto the left side.) Vince From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 15 01:54:47 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: teletype model 43 value In-Reply-To: <0f1101c766cd$463f9790$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703142251190.29466@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <45F8F20E.8050407@jetnet.ab.ca> <0f1101c766cd$463f9790$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703142353270.2780@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "woodelf" <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > > David Griffith wrote: > >> The teletype model 43 appears much more often on Ebay than the ASR33 > >> (which I've never seen there). Is there anything about the model 43 to > >> make it worth acquiring? > > > > A quick google indicates it is your standard basic 110/300 baud > > remote printing terminal. > > There is an available ASR option that I occasionally see on eBay. > (It's basically a reader/punch that bolts onto the left side.) I see there's a problem in getting ribbons for it. I'll pass. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Mar 14 19:54:33 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:54:33 -0700 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> > Actually, yes, I was thinking along the lines of something which > actually made use of the original firmware. That quite possible isn't > practical though as presumably at least some vendors did something > really oddball rather than using an off the shelf CPU :) > > But yes, "warts and all" through use of the original ROMs would seem > ideal to me (from an accurate as possible emulation point of view). > There's almost certainly far less of an issue with publishing these > ROMs for terminals I would have thought - lots of the companies in > question have either gone under or are hardly likely to care (unlike > the situation with MAME and games manufacturers) Along these lines -- does anyone have ROM images (preferably program & character roms) for the firmware in, say, a VT100? This discussion has piqued my interest in writing a hardware-level VT100 emulator (just what I need, another software project to distract me from the dozen or so I haven't yet finished...). I own a VT100 but I have no means to read the firmware off of it -- if anyone out there has an image I'd love to play around with it. Any good sources for hardware info on the VT100? Thanks, Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 02:04:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:04:44 -0400 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <001201c76646$498a4210$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <E1HRTiP-0004fp-00@xmission.xmission.com> <001201c76646$498a4210$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <9426BAB3-EDC9-462B-8DCB-4ED0386674CD@neurotica.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Jay West wrote: > To which Richard replied.... >> Dude. 10 years ago I don't know if this "hobby" was on anyone's >> radar. > I beg to differ. There's quite a few listmembers here that were > active in the hobby 10+ years ago. I'm also certain there were a > good number of people doing it well over 10 years ago that still > aren't on this list. A relative newcomer to the hobby wouldn't > usually be aware of this. Just because this list wasn't around 15 > years ago doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of people collecting. >10 years ago, I was adopting and hacking on PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems because it was fun, and I thought it was important to understand and preserve the technology. I don't think I ever really considered the notion of it being "a hobby" or any other structured, labelable/quantifiable thing. I just *did* it, because I wanted to. Just like today...except now it has a name. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From erik at baigar.de Thu Mar 15 02:28:12 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:28:12 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <9600AD50-FAE0-44B7-9B31-AD14A8AC5434@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703132123290.11962-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> Hi Roger! > >> Then 12 bit models were the 902, 102C, ARCH 105 and Minim or 12/12. > > I doubt you will find much apart from the names in timelines. You are right - only very limited hits on google. > normal use. Every extra Kg in the Avionics adds a lot to the overall > takeoff weight. For a helicopter, I think the ratio was somewhere > around six. Then there's the power, every extra watt needs bigger > alternators/generators and a bigger engine to drive them, and more > fuel to carry, which means more engine power and so on. Never thought about this in that way. But sounds absolutely logic. > In 920 assembler, instructions did not have mnemonics, you used their > decimal operation code values. To indicate 'B Line modification' in > the assembler you wrote a / before the operation code. The assembler > simply added 16 to the opcode, so /8 = 24, but you don't have the B-Line > bit on your machine - its always on. OK, I understand this now. What looked a typical list file and of did you specify the operands those days? Lot of assembly was done by hand, right? > > The Programmer Electronic Control (Let's call it PEC in the future) > > stores PC+1 (as your 18bit) to the specified location into > > core. The new address is taken from the position in memory > > where the index register points to. So in my case this is > > a perfect table jump. > > Ah, so you do this ? > 0 word with address of routine > 11 link word Yes, quite right. The 11 gets as operand the address where to store the program counter for later returning. Since the unit is 12bit and has 8192 words of memory it uses two consecutive words for storing the return address or loading the destination. And a bottleneck again si, that the return address has to be stored in the first 128 words of core. I think this is a severe drawback of this machine: 4 bits for identifying the instruction and only 7 for the operand. So the 0 and 11 are restricted to the "zero-page"... > > Right. But here again, the bit 11 is the sign bit and > > thus the shift does not affect the bit 11 of the > > destination. I.e. bit 0 of A is moved to bit 10 of Q > > in shifting right for example. > I see. The Q register was always a bit weird. Yes. From today's point of view this seems strange. But considering the sign/value notation it makes sense somehow. More information later... thanks, Erik. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Mar 15 02:29:58 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:29:58 -0700 Subject: Classic computing as a hobby when rocks were still soft (was Re: SWTPC craze) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703142042u481f5587s9c25300031b0f31c@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703142042u481f5587s9c25300031b0f31c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200703150029.59508.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 14 March 2007 20:42, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/14/07, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote: > > Count me in as an old fart as well... > > > > I had the following home/hobby computers: > > > > PDP-8/L in 1971 > > PDP-8/I in 1972 > > Wow... those were relatively fresh, then. My recollection was that a > PDP-8/L was $10K USD in 1967 or 1968. Any peripherals, or just TTY? I had two DF32's and a TC08 and TU55 on the 8/I and used to run TSS as well as OS/8. I purchased the 8/L and 8/I from "Sonny" at American Used Computer located in Boston. I got a lot of modules and I/O gear indirectly from DEC. They knew I had DEC systems in my home - and would tell me when customers wanted to "dump" older equipment. Most of the stuff I picked up that way was at little cost or free. > > PDP-12 in 1975 > > Very nice. I've seen one up close, but never got to play. I picked up the PDP-12 by purchasing it directly from DEC. At the time, I worked at Fidelity - and was a large 11/70 user with RP04's, 9 Track Tapes, etc. I ran the "quant" group and we used the 11/70 to do "bond arbitrage analysis", "stock models", "portfolio analysis", etc. The PMs (Portfolio Managers) and Traders could access data/results interactively via terminals. We also "sold" DEC systems to our corespondents (clients) with our "value added software". So, needless to say, DEC "liked" me. DEC sold me a "demo" PDP-12 for $3,000 when the list price was $28,000. I later added an RF08 (dual disk - a whopping 512K of storage ;-), and a 9 track tape to the PDP-12. I also added two 8K banks of MM8I memory to the 12. Subsequently, I sold the PDP-8/I and moved the TC08 and TU55 to the PDP-12. I ran the PDP-12 at home for years. Other than "playing" with the it (Spacewar!, etc.), I developed my own stock analysis software on the 12 to help manage my personal investments. I few years ago, I donated the PDP-12 to the Computer History Museum along with the complete DECUS library for the PDP-12. (I was the last volunteer DECUS coordinator for the PDP-12). I forgot to mention that in the early 70's I picked up a RPC-4000 (drum machine) and restored it to "health". Around 1974 I donated it to a Philadelphia museum. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 02:34:38 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:34:38 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing In-Reply-To: <914891fd5307cee7b6e98f4e41d7b71e@valleyimplants.com> References: <914891fd5307cee7b6e98f4e41d7b71e@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <C6E5074B-5523-4794-8E7D-4C3070A4AF87@neurotica.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 9:15 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > I have seen some ontopic books (UNIX, 10 years old now) that > strongly recommend disabling finger to prevent unauthorized types > from finding likely targets among the accounts. Since then, finger > services (such as cfingerd) have become less of an issue because > you can limit some information, but it's likely that the old maxim > still holds, as well as the new one: if you don't positively need > it than don't turn it on. Too bad, though: 'finger' was nice when > you wanted to get an e-mail address that you weren't certain of. > (after the demise of finger in general circulation I used to > connect to port 25 and try a couple of vrfys- can't do that anymore > in most places, but it's a "legitimate" need for port 25, right?) Yeah, and I just ran a Nessus scan against a web server at work, and it recommended that I close port 80 because it's a potential security risk. The only way the data on a machine is 100% secure is if the machine is disconnected from the network, powered off, and sitting in a closet. If one requires more usefulness than that configuration provides, there is going to be some element of risk. There's just no way around it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 02:37:48 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:37:48 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C480@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C480@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <E81C86B3-4769-4168-AF12-2E0BBB769DB2@neurotica.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 6:11 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > I agree that "obsolete" has different meanings for different > people. For > you, if it still functions, then it is not obsolete. So a model A > is not > obsolete because it still works. Well, close, but not quite. By my definition, a Model A *is* obsolete as a piece of practical everyday equipment. Not only has it (and service for it) been discontinued, but the manufacturer has released arguably better products since then. > But for a manufacturer, more than just supporting a product - does > it still > generate revenue? That is what "works" means to a business. The > product > may be great, it may last for 50 years. But if it doesn't generate > revenue, > it is obsolete. > > You look for functionality - OEMs look for revenue. Obsolete then has > multiple meanings depending on your viewpoint. Yes, most definitely, I agree. The manufacturer, then, needs to keep their definition of "obsolete" to themselves. If I hear "You fool, why are you using that old thing, it's obsolete!" from its manufacturer, it almost definitely translates to "You know, I work on commission, and I'd really like to make a sale today." If I hear the exact same sentence from a colleague, I will likely listen and ask for clarification, because they're likely not trying to get into my wallet by making that assertion...they may simply know something that I don't, something that could make my work easier, and I'd be a fool to dismiss it out of hand. > I consider the Apple II obsolete - yet my machine still works > great. I > think you are saying that to you, the Apple II is not obsolete. By > your > criteria, is there ANY machine, computer or otherwise, that is > obsolete? > Can you give us an example or two of an obsolete machine? No, you misunderstand my position, or I have misrepresented it. The point I was trying to make was about the notion of "forced obsolescence". If the manufacturer stops selling something long before demand runs out, and doesn't release something substantially better in its place, then THAT is a problem. Sure, one can do real work on an Apple II if one really wanted to...but there are better ways to get real work done, ways that are much more effective. That makes the Apple II "obsolete" (truly) as a computer. It simply boils down to "who says it's obsolete". If it's the manufacturer, and the user disagrees, I see that as a huge problem...especially if there is pressure involved, which there frequently is. I guarantee you the 20-something vendor rep with the power tie and the slicked-back hair who just showed up in your building is NOT standing there worried about whether or not you're on the cutting edge of technology or whether he makes your job easier. THAT is where "forced obsolescence" comes from. It is fake, a lie, and needs to be recognized and ignored when encountered. That is, unless one actually enjoys being bilked for every last dime and having an equipment turnover interval measured in months. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From erik at baigar.de Thu Mar 15 02:43:37 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:43:37 +0100 (MET) Subject: Report on vintage "Programmer Electronnic Control" alias "RAF Tornado Computer" In-Reply-To: <DA4F4629-A9E5-43C5-A1F5-4A97CE8FA4DA@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703150826430.23172-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, Roger Holmes wrote: > Actually I was employed a junior programmer and eventually became > responsible for the Coral 66 compiler and utility software for the > 920. Later on I became a 'Senior Systems Engineer' and made some > suggestions to the engineers here and there. I really learned about > hardware as a hobby with my ICT1301 mainframe. After I left I Awesome machine! It is really a huge project to bring this one up and keep it running! I surfed around in the links you mentioned in your posting and was REALLY IMPRESSED! One of the best sounds I ever heared is the spinning up of the drum ;-) > 64k of data to wide format Versatec Plotters at a million BYTES a > second without any intervention from the CPU (i.e. by Direct Memory > Access). While that was going on the CPU was imaging the next chunk > of data to be sent. It had to be real time because if the plotter ran > out of data it would stop and the liquid toner would soak into the > paper and spoil the image. Yes, this is a challenging task. Compared to this, the modern Multi-GHz computers perform very bad. > >> from location zero and the B from location 1. > > That is a clever concept and should be easy to detect. > > So I will have to do some hardware work in supplying the > > signals to the appropriate lines and than I will be > > able to test this hypothesis. > Good. Yesterday evening I completed the hardware setup for applying pulses to the interrupt circuitry. Time of the pulse is adjustable to 5-20us after the reset. So there is time for the program to enable interrupts and the whole process fits into the memory of my logic analyzer. So I will hunt for the interrupts on saturday... Regarding the devices (timer for example) you wrote: > things like compasses, gyros, special digital radio receivers and > transmitters, custom keyboards and vector and raster monitors, chart > recorders and much more. Did the vector monitors have own intelligence like terminals, or did you send x- and y- values to them? Honestly speaking this is an upcoming project for my PEC, too. I already got a HP1335a analog storage vector display and I want to connect it to the unit via two DACs. This would give me a writing speed of approximately 20000 pixels per second via the serial links. Not very fast, but OK. > A chap who used to be a service engineer on my computer many years > ago contacted a while back and kindly agreed to help me bring my > computer back into a useable state. He has a web site describing the > project, and there are some pictures of him and my machine at http:// > ict1301.co.uk/13010510.htm . The rotary switches can be used to put > data into registers, including the three instruction registers, so > you can enter programs from the keys if all else fails. The green > squares have four indicators in each one, so can display one decimal > digit (it is primarily a decimal machine, 12 digits * 4 bits) That is really a great piece of history and it is of course beeing worth beeing taken care of! How often do you turn this baby on? According to the internet this is made of germanium transistors. What type of transistors do you use if you have to replace them? What are the major (technical) problems you enounter apart from corrosion of contacts? Do you encounter semiconductor failures often? > Oh for all that space! I have two machines in less space they use for > one. Mind you one of mine is not assembled. It makes taking pictures > very difficult. Yes of course. You'd need a 80m^2 exhibition area for one of these babies to make photos like this... Keep on the excellent work on the mainframe, thanks again, Erik. From technobug at comcast.net Thu Mar 15 02:45:41 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:45:41 -0700 Subject: Upgraded my VAXstation 3520... In-Reply-To: <200703150700.l2F70JsR087901@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703150700.l2F70JsR087901@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <71CF612D-2D1C-4E84-B2D8-9325F23B0CFE@comcast.net> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:36:59 -0400, Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer- refuge.org> wrote: > The VAXstation 3520 (and 3540) are dual and quad processor pedestal > vaxes > (BA213-sized chassis) that DEC breifly tried to sell, with a weird > (only > used on those models) processor/memory bus called the "M bus". I was > hoping that I could get more than 4 CPUs to function in the > machine, and > after a lot of effort (module order did matter!), I got some > encouraging > results. I bet no one else here can claim that they've got a > "VAXserver > 3560"... [...hack...] Okay, you have my interest. I assumed you sacrificed the graphics card slots for the additional CPU and memory. Pray tell the order. I'm running a 3540 with the second box kept as running spares less the processors and memory. At one time, after one beer too many, I had thoughts of repopulating my second box to a 3540 level and building a M-buss extender to come up with a 3580. However, the hangover and the light of day squashed those thoughts :-)) CRC From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 02:58:57 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:58:57 -0400 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> Message-ID: <56CD7ACF-D8E2-42CD-8D89-566F77F7684B@neurotica.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 8:54 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Actually, yes, I was thinking along the lines of something which >> actually made use of the original firmware. That quite possible >> isn't practical though as presumably at least some vendors did >> something really oddball rather than using an off the shelf CPU :) >> >> But yes, "warts and all" through use of the original ROMs would >> seem ideal to me (from an accurate as possible emulation point of >> view). There's almost certainly far less of an issue with >> publishing these ROMs for terminals I would have thought - lots of >> the companies in question have either gone under or are hardly >> likely to care (unlike the situation with MAME and games >> manufacturers) > > Along these lines -- does anyone have ROM images (preferably > program & character roms) for the firmware in, say, a VT100? This > discussion has piqued my interest in writing a hardware-level VT100 > emulator (just what I need, another software project to distract me > from the dozen or so I haven't yet finished...). I own a VT100 but > I have no means to read the firmware off of it -- if anyone out > there has an image I'd love to play around with it. Any good > sources for hardware info on the VT100? Ahh, that answers that question. :) I'm about to hit the hay right now, but I will see about reading some EPROMs tomorrow and will let people know of their availability. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Mar 15 02:58:43 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:58:43 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F8D6A5.7090301@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <C21EAD33.895C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 15/3/07 05:16, "Jim Leonard" <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 14/3/07 18:59, "Jim Leonard" <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: >> >>> Adrian Graham wrote: >>>> But by cat-ing several mpegs together you DO end up with a single header, >>> No, you end up with an invalid target with multiple beginning-of-file >>> headers throughout the file. >> >> Ah, my bad. I naturally assumed that cat would strip those off and just have > > How would cat know what part of the stream was the header? Were you > talking about *nix cat or some other cat? I was kind of taking the simplistic view that each file had a standard sized header that at least had a magic number* and some indication of length of said file. I can also see that it might just read-until-EOF so maybe I was crediting it with too much intelligence. *osf1/tru64 files have a magic number in the header that describes the file type which you can determine with the 'file' command. Since Tru64 is part BSD and part SYSV I thought said behaviour must've come from one of those. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 15 04:15:05 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:15:05 +0000 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> Message-ID: <45F90E99.6010900@dunnington.plus.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Along these lines -- does anyone have ROM images (preferably program & > character roms) for the firmware in, say, a VT100? Try http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ I'm missing 23-031E2 because my VT had the 23-061E2 option instead, and I don't have 23-094E2 (extra character generator ROM for VT100-WC-WK) or any of the alternative ROMs used in the rest of the VT1xx family -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 15 04:14:54 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:14:54 +0000 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <E308EF20-ED0F-4E0C-9397-30B451E7EB6D@neurotica.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141521l17dd4405pf66dd304c59f305d@mail.gmail.com> <E308EF20-ED0F-4E0C-9397-30B451E7EB6D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F90E8E.6070808@dunnington.plus.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I have pretty much all of the DEC microprocessor-based terminals. Do > you think it'd be a good idea for me to, over time, pull them out and > read their ROMs for archival or reconstructive purposes? I think that would be a good idea -- not just for emulations but to make it possible to repair any terminals that suffer from bit rot in future. I've been doing that for years (decades, actually!), and I have some of the VT100 ROMs on my website at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ (read the file ROMlist to see which they are). I'd be happy to host images not already there. See particularly the "Wanted!" list in that directory :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Mar 15 04:34:25 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:34:25 +0000 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <56CD7ACF-D8E2-42CD-8D89-566F77F7684B@neurotica.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> <56CD7ACF-D8E2-42CD-8D89-566F77F7684B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703150234y6834a3acrbfbe6950002bd914@mail.gmail.com> One class of terminal that seems to have disappeared completely from history is the viewdata terminal. 40x25 lines, colour and block graphics and other effects implemented by control codes that took up visible spaces.. Designed in the late '70s for display of the GPO (later British Telecom) Prestel and other compatable dial-up services on residential TV sets via integrated electronics (very few ever made due to cost), it ended up as mostly dedicated terminals or set-top-boxs. The service only really took off outside limited vertical markets in the late '80s when "Micronet 800" started selling modems and (mostly quite bad) terminal emulators for the various home micros. I used a few dedicated terminals at the time, connecting either to the proper service (run on primes I think) or our local editing system (a PDP 11 of some flavour.) I've never seen an emulation that could cope with the rare case of "remove the double-height -start-code" properly[1] apart from the one I wrote, probably because nobody ever thought hard about the implications of it.. I vote for the MAME-style hardware emulation approach! Rob [1] Because control codes took up display spaces, it was possible to go back and overwrite them - this was often used for simple animations, changing colours to hide or reveal things, etc, as at 1200 baud, it was quite slow enough to be visible.. Now.. double height lines 'overflowed' onto the line below, hiding anything that was printed there. when you remove the double-height start code, the displayed double height characters are replaced by standard single height characters, and the line below then appears. Now, if that line had a start-double-height code on it, ignored up until now, then it would suddenly appear and expand to cover line 3, hiding everything that was there, etc etc... it was possible to swap an entire page of text for another page of text, (all double height of course) by overwriting a single control character at the top. Not bad when you only had 1200 baud to send stuff. Unfortunately, I never met a single emulator that could cope with this, apart from mine, although the hardware terminals I'd encountered coped without blinking. On 15/03/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On Mar 14, 2007, at 8:54 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Actually, yes, I was thinking along the lines of something which > >> actually made use of the original firmware. That quite possible > >> isn't practical though as presumably at least some vendors did > >> something really oddball rather than using an off the shelf CPU :) > >> > >> But yes, "warts and all" through use of the original ROMs would > >> seem ideal to me (from an accurate as possible emulation point of > >> view). There's almost certainly far less of an issue with > >> publishing these ROMs for terminals I would have thought - lots of > >> the companies in question have either gone under or are hardly > >> likely to care (unlike the situation with MAME and games > >> manufacturers) > > > > Along these lines -- does anyone have ROM images (preferably > > program & character roms) for the firmware in, say, a VT100? This > > discussion has piqued my interest in writing a hardware-level VT100 > > emulator (just what I need, another software project to distract me > > from the dozen or so I haven't yet finished...). I own a VT100 but > > I have no means to read the firmware off of it -- if anyone out > > there has an image I'd love to play around with it. Any good > > sources for hardware info on the VT100? > > Ahh, that answers that question. :) I'm about to hit the hay > right now, but I will see about reading some EPROMs tomorrow and will > let people know of their availability. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 15 05:23:15 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:23:15 +0000 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70703150234y6834a3acrbfbe6950002bd914@mail.gmail.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> <56CD7ACF-D8E2-42CD-8D89-566F77F7684B@neurotica.com> <2f806cd70703150234y6834a3acrbfbe6950002bd914@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F91E93.3020707@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/03/2007 09:34, Rob wrote: > One class of terminal that seems to have disappeared completely from > history is the viewdata terminal. Yup. I needed one to access home banking a decade ago, and it wasn't easy to find one, other than on a BBC Micro or an Archimedes. > I've never seen an emulation that could cope with the rare case of > "remove the double-height -start-code" properly[1] apart from the one > I wrote, probably because nobody ever thought hard about the > implications of it.. Define "properly" and I'll tell you if mine does :-) Actually some servers do different things with double-height too. I swiped the code for my terminal emulation from a program called XBtx, which was meant for the German Bildschirmtext system. I had to remove a lot of things and fix a few differences, including IIRC the double-height. One of the nice things about it, though, is that it's a client/server program, so my wife could use the client on her SGI Indigo to access the bank system (HOBS, if you want to know) via my Indy and its modem. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Mar 15 05:27:46 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:27:46 -0400 Subject: ADDS terminal trash talk In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703142043v302fbdeeu90a3350a9347d849@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703150304.l2F34l3i014412@floodgap.com> <012601c766b0$31c6fc30$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1e1fc3e90703142043v302fbdeeu90a3350a9347d849@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <D77B3386-F262-46F4-A5A7-FB9143BC9260@colourfull.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 11:43 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > randomz3 was the winner. who ever that is seems to have deep pockets. Interesting. Same person who won the "very expensive" Compucolor II. Deep pockets is right. Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Mar 15 05:42:47 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:42:47 +0000 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F91E93.3020707@dunnington.plus.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> <56CD7ACF-D8E2-42CD-8D89-566F77F7684B@neurotica.com> <2f806cd70703150234y6834a3acrbfbe6950002bd914@mail.gmail.com> <45F91E93.3020707@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703150342k64f5f1a9sc00c792d76d3a8e7@mail.gmail.com> On 15/03/07, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote: > On 15/03/2007 09:34, Rob wrote: > > > I've never seen an emulation that could cope with the rare case of > > "remove the double-height -start-code" properly[1] apart from the one > > I wrote, probably because nobody ever thought hard about the > > implications of it.. > > Define "properly" and I'll tell you if mine does :-) > as per the footnote .. but specifically: Send it.. HOME Esc M Hello CR LF Esc M Goodbye CR LF Esc M Hello CR LF Esc M Goodbye CR LF you should only see two double-height "Hello"s.. send it HOME and a space you should now see two double height "Goodbye"s .. Many emulations drop the hidden second line, rather than remember it, so it doesn't re-appear, and you end up with just the top line changing, if it does even that .. I've seen some that change the top line to single height, and leave line 2 on the screen with the bottom half of the Hello on it, or worse, because they duplicated line 1, they think that line 2 is now a double-height Hello, overwriting line 3.... From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Mar 15 06:56:06 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:56:06 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.15 posted Message-ID: <200703151155.l2FBtsfe024715@hosting.monisys.ca> I've just posted an update to ImageDisk to my site. 1.15 includes the ability to have write/format operations pause so that you can manually change the TG43 line state. It also includes a couple of minor fixes to IMD, and some less minor fixes and enhancements to IMDV the new ImageDisk Viewer. I've also updated the source code archive with the latest of everything, including the viewer source code. Enjoy, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ken at seefried.com Thu Mar 15 08:26:47 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:26:47 -0400 Subject: Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand In-Reply-To: <200703100330.l2A3Tnbj046518@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703100330.l2A3Tnbj046518@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070315132647.29787.qmail@seefried.com> >From: der Mouse <mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > >>>>> See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/mterm.src/ [...]. >> I will grab mterm and check it out. > >Do please let me know if you have any problems with it (this applies to >anyone else interested in mterm, too, which is why the post to the >list). It hasn't been built on that many systems other than my own.... > I used mterm *ages* ago, and it worked well. I *think* I got it to compile on SunOS 3 and a locally molested BSD 4.x on an VAX. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Mar 15 08:40:49 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:40:49 -0400 Subject: Data General DG/500 - Help Message-ID: <CF822BD3-1167-48E4-87C7-63DDDA30B0A2@colourfull.com> Hi All, I just got in a Data General DG/500 (this is the PC style computer based on the microEclipse chip set). Unforturnately, no docs or software can with the unit. Does anyone have any info on this unit, or can point me in the right direction. Even the connectors on the back are non-standard. Thanks Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 15 08:45:49 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:45:49 -0400 Subject: Netframe collectors? In-Reply-To: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOCEIOEKAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> References: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOCEIOEKAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> Message-ID: <45F94E0D.80107@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I am looking for an NF250 and NF450 myself :-) Curt G Manuel (GMC) wrote: > I have always been interested in getting an earlier NetFrame to play around > with. Do you have something in particular you are looking to unload? > Depending on where you are I could be very interested. > > Greg Manuel > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Curt - Atari Museum [mailto:curt at atarimuseum.com] >> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 8:43 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Netframe collectors? >> >> >> Does anyone here collect Netframes? >> >> Not the later Micron crap, I'm talking about the early Netframes like >> the little mushroom unit and the 3' monolith units that ran Novell and >> you connected to admin it via a Novell SPX client. >> >> >> Also looking for anyone who collects Tricord ES7000 and ES8000 servers. >> >> >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 15 09:30:24 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:30:24 -0800 Subject: ADDS terminal trash talk In-Reply-To: <D77B3386-F262-46F4-A5A7-FB9143BC9260@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <BAY138-F365EC351F63FB331E24D6FA3720@phx.gbl> >From: Robert Borsuk <rborsuk at colourfull.com> > >On Mar 14, 2007, at 11:43 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> >>randomz3 was the winner. who ever that is seems to have deep pockets. > > >Interesting. Same person who won the "very expensive" Compucolor II. >Deep pockets is right. > > Hi I think I know who it is but I also think he is on this list. If he wanted to be known I suspect he'd speek up. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you?ll love. Compare products and save at MSN? Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 15 09:44:46 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <C21EAD33.895C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C21EAD33.895C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <200703151450.KAA22613@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I was kind of taking the simplistic view that each file had a > standard sized header that at least had a magic number* and some > indication of length of said file. I don't know of any OS that has such a thing. Not even VMS, which generally speaking has file type stuff out the wazoo - unless your "magic number" can be read as applying to the FDL description of the file's layout. > *osf1/tru64 files have a magic number in the header that describes > the file type which you can determine with the 'file' command. Um, you need to learn more about how file(1) works. There is a moderately large database of "this kind of file exhibits these data patterns"; file(1) uses that and pokes around in the file's contents to see which of those patterns the file matches. There is no type-independent header such as you are imagining; rather, the type-dependent headers for the various recognized file types are recognized. (file(1) actually has some additional heuristics for identifying things like C code that don't have magic-number headers, but they're just that, heuristics.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Mar 15 10:10:14 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:10:14 -0400 Subject: Upgraded my VAXstation 3520... In-Reply-To: <71CF612D-2D1C-4E84-B2D8-9325F23B0CFE@comcast.net> References: <200703150700.l2F70JsR087901@dewey.classiccmp.org> <71CF612D-2D1C-4E84-B2D8-9325F23B0CFE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200703151110.14901.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 15 March 2007 03:45, CRC wrote: > On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:36:59 -0400, Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer- > > refuge.org> wrote: > > The VAXstation 3520 (and 3540) are dual and quad processor pedestal > > vaxes > > (BA213-sized chassis) that DEC breifly tried to sell, with a weird > > (only > > used on those models) processor/memory bus called the "M bus". I > > was hoping that I could get more than 4 CPUs to function in the > > machine, and > > after a lot of effort (module order did matter!), I got some > > encouraging > > results. I bet no one else here can claim that they've got a > > "VAXserver > > 3560"... > > [...hack...] > > Okay, you have my interest. I assumed you sacrificed the graphics > card slots for the additional CPU and memory. Pray tell the order. > I'm running a 3540 with the second box kept as running spares less > the processors and memory. The order from left to right is: QBUS board - Memory - CPU - CPU - Memory - CPU - I/O board. Note that the video board has to be pulled, and the rightmost two slots (with the 2nd and 3rd video boards) aren't *real* MBus slots, don't try plugging card into them. I managed to break my video board by plugging it into the wrong slot. :( Also, since I had two different versions of firmware (1.1 and 1.2), the board with the 1.1 version of the firmware had to go in the farthest right CPU slot, or else it wouldn't bring up all of the CPUs; in fact, if it was in the first CPU slot, then the system wouldn't come up at all, and would hang with "D" on the system LED display. I'm gonna try blowing a pair of new EPROMS with the 1.2 firmware to upgrade the 1.1 firmware CPU, at work today, and see if that fixes the problems I've seen. If you're OK with just one memory board, you might be able to squeeze 4 CPU boards into one box. I just don't have enough to try that yet. > At one time, after one beer too many, I had thoughts of repopulating > my second box to a 3540 level and building a M-buss extender to come > up with a 3580. However, the hangover and the light of day squashed > those thoughts :-)) MBus is different than QBUS or UNIBUS, in that each slot is (to some extent) individually accessible. So, it'd probably be difficult at best to build an MBus "extender". Though, I have thought of that before, as well. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 15 11:17:47 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:17:47 -0500 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70703150234y6834a3acrbfbe6950002bd914@mail.gmail.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> <56CD7ACF-D8E2-42CD-8D89-566F77F7684B@neurotica.com> <2f806cd70703150234y6834a3acrbfbe6950002bd914@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F971AB.3030807@yahoo.co.uk> Rob wrote: > One class of terminal that seems to have disappeared completely from > history is the viewdata terminal. 40x25 lines, colour and block > graphics and other effects implemented by control codes that took up > visible spaces.. I remember spending a while hunting out a PC terminal emulator that would handle double-height properly; eventually I gave up. There was one (I think it might have been Odyssey) which came fairly close, but all the others seemed to make a total mess of it. It's one of the things that's been nagging at me about some sort of "do everything" terminal emulator, because I'm not sure whether supporting double-height introduces all sorts of problems when otherwise trying to support "classic" terminals. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 15 11:21:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:21:22 -0500 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45F97282.2080909@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <45F86F35.5080107 at yahoo.co.uk>, > Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> writes: > >> Actually, yes, I was thinking along the lines of something which actually mad > e >> use of the original firmware. That quite possible isn't practical though as >> presumably at least some vendors did something really oddball rather than >> using an off the shelf CPU :) > > The weirder terminals don't use a CPU at all. They use SSI/MSI TTL > logic. That's what I was wondering. Although I suppose that providing they have a design that can be coaxed into the same architecture as a typical terminal, then it doesn't matter as a box can be drawn around the bit that "looks" like a CPU. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Mar 15 10:33:02 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:33:02 -0700 Subject: Netframe collectors? In-Reply-To: <45F94E0D.80107@atarimuseum.com> References: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOCEIOEKAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> <45F94E0D.80107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200703150833.02843.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 15 March 2007 06:45, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking for an NF250 and NF450 myself :-) Over the past year, I've seen a few Netframes "pass-through" scrappers. If folks are interested in Netframes, I will ask them to watch for them. I have no idea of what a Netframe should go for pricewise. Email me privately with what you think would be a fair price. I won't pass your individual numbers to the scrappers - but will create an "average" number as an "incentive" for them to "watch" and call me. If I hear of one being available, I'll post that info to the list. As you can see from my signature, I'm located in Silicon Valley, so consider shipping charges if you aren't local. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From kth at srv.net Thu Mar 15 10:45:28 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:45:28 -0600 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <45F96A18.3020504@srv.net> Dan wrote: > > add one more place to that list-- Thrift stores. > I found an ASR-33 once back in '82 Thrift stores in my area don't accept anything less than a pentium any more. Apparently they were having problems with people trying to do such things as installing Windows on an Apple ][, and whatnot. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu Mar 15 11:04:48 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:04:48 +0000 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <E308EF20-ED0F-4E0C-9397-30B451E7EB6D@neurotica.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141521l17dd4405pf66dd304c59f305d@mail.gmail.com> <E308EF20-ED0F-4E0C-9397-30B451E7EB6D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F96EA0.10702@frixxon.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > > The VT100 uses an 8085, FYI. I don't recall what the VT220/VT240 use. The VT100 uses an 8080. You may be thinking of the VT101/102, but I don't have one here to check. The text terminals from the VT220 upwards mostly use 8051-family microcontrollers. -- Paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 11:09:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:09:26 -0700 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <45F96A18.3020504@srv.net> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net>, <45F96A18.3020504@srv.net> Message-ID: <45F90D46.13699.42D637E@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Mar 2007 at 9:45, Kevin Handy wrote: > > add one more place to that list-- Thrift stores. > > I found an ASR-33 once back in '82 > Thrift stores in my area don't accept anything less than a > pentium any more. Freecycle in some areas can be very good. This past week, one of the local freecyclers unloaded his attic full of C64 and C128 stuff. (No, I didn't get it) You can't beat the price. Cheers, Chuck From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Mar 15 11:11:06 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:11:06 +0000 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F971AB.3030807@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <45F89949.6070500@msu.edu> <56CD7ACF-D8E2-42CD-8D89-566F77F7684B@neurotica.com> <2f806cd70703150234y6834a3acrbfbe6950002bd914@mail.gmail.com> <45F971AB.3030807@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703150911h30329dc4q2a42a1e20e42867a@mail.gmail.com> On 15/03/07, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > I remember spending a while hunting out a PC terminal emulator that would > handle double-height properly; eventually I gave up. There was one (I think it > might have been Odyssey) which came fairly close, but all the others seemed to > make a total mess of it. > Mine was for the BBC; I "solved" the issue by buffering the data input seperately, and re-drawing the main screen from it using the 50Hz clock tick.. This allowed me to keep what was on the otherwise hidden lines, and it automaticaly reappeared when necessary. All other emulators I had encountered just drew to screen memory directly, discarding the hidden line information, and then of course were stumped when it was required.. > It's one of the things that's been nagging at me about some sort of "do > everything" terminal emulator, because I'm not sure whether supporting > double-height introduces all sorts of problems when otherwise trying to > support "classic" terminals. I am sure that I recall codes for going to double-height (and double width) characters in other environments, too.. Not sure if it was terminals though, or printers.. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 11:51:46 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:51:46 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing Message-ID: <20070315165146.TGUK23400.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Yeah, and I just ran a Nessus scan against a web server at work, > and it recommended that I close port 80 because it's a potential > security risk. The only way the data on a machine is 100% secure is > if the machine is disconnected from the network, powered off, and > sitting in a closet. If one requires more usefulness than that > configuration provides, there is going to be some element of risk. > There's just no way around it. "It is easy to run a secure computer system. You merely have to disconnect all dial-up [network] connections and permit only direct-wired terminals, put the machine and its terminals in a shielded room, and post a guard at the door. - F.T. Gramp and R.H. Morris BLS From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Mar 15 12:00:17 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:00:17 -0400 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:11:44 PDT." <0e9001c76685$c0ee1360$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <200703151700.l2FH0HWo031208@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: >From: "Ethan Dicks" >> Perhaps this is yet another thing better done with a microcontroller >> and emulation software, but it's mostly a hardware project to take an >> existing, known-compatible board from a classic product rather than to >> roll one's own. > >I was thinking of something more like an FPGA demo board -- mine has >tons of gates, memory, PS2, VGA, the serial and parallel port are no >problem, etc. > >Then you could express the hardware of the machine in VHDL or the >like, and just code in the firmware, on that hardware. A little >fairly standard magic to output to the VGA port and translate from >the PS2 keyboard, and you'd be done. > >If an additional terminal type is needed, it would be some ROM dumps >and VHDL tweaks. > >Hey, if it can do a PDP-8, it ought to be able to emulate a VT100 :-). I did this last summer/fall with an XESS board. Just the basics, however, more like a tty than anything else. It wasn't hard in verilog - I'll put the code up soon... -brad From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Mar 15 13:29:54 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:29:54 -0800 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F97282.2080909@yahoo.co.uk> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> <45F97282.2080909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F990A2.8050609@msm.umr.edu> Jules Richardson wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> In article <45F86F35.5080107 at yahoo.co.uk>, >> Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> writes: >> >> <snip> >> The weirder terminals don't use a CPU at all. They use SSI/MSI TTL >> logic. > > > That's what I was wondering. Although I suppose that providing they > have a design that can be coaxed into the same architecture as a > typical terminal, then it doesn't matter as a box can be drawn around > the bit that "looks" like a CPU. The Microdata Prism was designed around a "cpu" which used only one 74181. This actually was enough to emulate the Adds cursor control the copied. There was very little else in the way of features that required other than counters. It had a processor tank running 24 bit wide firmware to handle the keyboard, and screen functions as need be. I don't think it had more than 32 firmware words however. The Adds 580 logic was designed around the display, and I don't know that it had a cpu per se in the design. Others in the "no cpu" vein would be the hazeltine terminals, with core display memory, but I never had the info to know what those had as logic. These all used nothing much more exotic than proms and the ALU at the high end AFIK. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 12:47:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:47:48 -0700 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <45F990A2.8050609@msm.umr.edu> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com>, <45F97282.2080909@yahoo.co.uk>, <45F990A2.8050609@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <45F92454.10184.48774DE@cclist.sydex.com> PCexchange is selling these for 10 clams. Are they applicable to anything but a genuine Sun box? Is there any reason to own one? http://pcexchange-net.stores.yahoo.net/sunmipcica40.html Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 12:49:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:49:50 -0400 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F90E8E.6070808@dunnington.plus.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141521l17dd4405pf66dd304c59f305d@mail.gmail.com> <E308EF20-ED0F-4E0C-9397-30B451E7EB6D@neurotica.com> <45F90E8E.6070808@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <D37CB614-D7C0-49C8-984B-2AF53BF820BA@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 5:14 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> I have pretty much all of the DEC microprocessor-based >> terminals. Do you think it'd be a good idea for me to, over time, >> pull them out and read their ROMs for archival or reconstructive >> purposes? > > I think that would be a good idea -- not just for emulations but to > make it possible to repair any terminals that suffer from bit rot > in future. I've been doing that for years (decades, actually!), > and I have some of the VT100 ROMs on my website at http:// > www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ (read the file ROMlist to > see which they are). I'd be happy to host images not already > there. See particularly the "Wanted!" list in that directory :-) Oh my, well that saves me a lot of case-cracking! :) I will see if I can add a few to your archive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 12:48:59 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:48:59 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <C21EAD33.895C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C21EAD33.895C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 3:58 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>>>> But by cat-ing several mpegs together you DO end up with a >>>>> single header, >>>> No, you end up with an invalid target with multiple beginning-of- >>>> file >>>> headers throughout the file. >>> >>> Ah, my bad. I naturally assumed that cat would strip those off >>> and just have >> >> How would cat know what part of the stream was the header? Were you >> talking about *nix cat or some other cat? > > I was kind of taking the simplistic view that each file had a > standard sized > header that at least had a magic number* and some indication of > length of > said file. I can also see that it might just read-until-EOF so > maybe I was > crediting it with too much intelligence. > > *osf1/tru64 files have a magic number in the header that describes > the file > type which you can determine with the 'file' command. Since Tru64 > is part > BSD and part SYSV I thought said behaviour must've come from one of > those. Nope, there is no such header in any UNIX implementation that I'm aware of. The "magic number" you speak of isn't part of any header...the "file" program opens the target file, looks at the first few bytes, and then looks up the pattern in its database to arrive at an *educated guess* as to the type of file it's looking at...for example, if bytes 7-10 of the file are 0x4a464946 (ascii "JFIF"), it is most likely (but not definitely!) a JPEG image file. Similarly, if bytes 1-6 are 0x474946383961 (ascii "GIF89a") the file is most likely a v89a GIF image file, and if bytes 1-8 are 0xfeedface, it's a Mach-O executable from a MacOS X system. It is important to understand, though, that this has nothing at all to do with the operating system, and there is no common header format of any sort. It just so happens that many types of files are consistent in what their first few bytes contain. The "magic number" is just a pattern of bytes that are known to be consistent from file to file of the same type. Try this experiment on pretty much any UNIX-likesystem: apophis$ cat > foo.txt GIF89a is a half-decent file format. apophis$ file foo.txt foo.txt: GIF file, v89 apophis$ Similarly, if you create a file on a MacOS X system whose first eight bytes (not six!) are 0xfeedface, the "file" command will guess it is a Mach-O executable file...and if you happen to create a file whose first eight bytes are 0xfeedface, make it executable, and run it, the OS will attempt to execute it but fail. One of the primary tenets of the UNIX philosophy is that a file is NOTHING MORE than a sequence of bytes. This point is central and important enough that I'd argue that any UNIX implementation that adds such headers is no longer UNIX. Look at the man pages for the "file" command on your system to see where it stores its database. This is almost always a text file whose contents are well-commented; it will be fairly obvious how "file" uses it to scan a file to try to guess its type. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 13:04:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:04:36 -0400 Subject: UNIX 'file' command (was Re: PDP-11/40 videos) Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703151104q7e781d81s7674d8812f9b742@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > Try this experiment on pretty much any UNIX-likesystem: > > apophis$ cat > foo.txt > GIF89a is a half-decent file format. > apophis$ file foo.txt > foo.txt: GIF file, v89 Nice demo. I already knew about how file works, how the "database" is structured, and I've even tweaked it once or twice to handle new files (Infocom game files, FWIW ;-), but I'd never tried a simple little thing like that. I can see how it would work, but it just never occurred to me to try that. -ethan (who uses 'file' several times a week) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 13:14:23 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:14:23 -0400 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <45F92454.10184.48774DE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> <45F97282.2080909@yahoo.co.uk> <45F990A2.8050609@msm.umr.edu> <45F92454.10184.48774DE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703151114j1894b93rc189e002949af0fd@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > PCexchange is selling these for 10 clams. Are they applicable to > anything but a genuine Sun box? Is there any reason to own one? > > http://pcexchange-net.stores.yahoo.net/sunmipcica40.html I wasn't able to track down much of anything other than sale listings on this card, but from what I remember about it, it's primary function is an embedded PC for running Windows and whatnot. I do not recall what the latest version of Solaris supports it, but I'd be surprised if it's still supported under Solaris 10. For $18.95 (w/shipping), it's _almost_ worth getting one to see if it can be run standalone as an embedded PC... I see what looks like a space to install an IDE connector, but the BIOS might only know how to talk to some application running on the Sun, with a "soft" video adapter (as the A2088 Bridgeboard did in the Amiga). I occasionally have cause to want a smallish PC running some embedded task (smart cacheing webcam, network-attached readout for system status, etc), so as long as I can stick a flash card in an IDE adapter, attach a network interface, and hang my peripherals off of parallel and/or serial ports, that's enough - it doesn't have to have its own video interface. Anyone have any detailed docs on this card? Thanks, -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 15 14:17:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:17:15 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> References: <C21EAD33.895C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F99BBB.5010904@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > apophis$ cat > foo.txt > GIF89a is a half-decent file format. > apophis$ file foo.txt > foo.txt: GIF file, v89 here 'file' also tries to pull the resolution information out, making it think that foo.txt is a 26912 x 8307 image... (Imagemagick's 'identify' command tends to do pretty well at making sense of totally unknown image formats, incidentally, and is probably on-topic these days) > Look at the man pages for the "file" command on your system to see > where it stores its database. Traditionally it was /etc/magic wasn't it? Here it seems to be /etc/file/magic though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 13:30:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:30:14 -0400 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703151114j1894b93rc189e002949af0fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> <45F97282.2080909@yahoo.co.uk> <45F990A2.8050609@msm.umr.edu> <45F92454.10184.48774DE@cclist.sydex.com> <f4eb766f0703151114j1894b93rc189e002949af0fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E119C21-F282-4D4A-A356-37C611724A49@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 2:14 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> PCexchange is selling these for 10 clams. Are they applicable to >> anything but a genuine Sun box? Is there any reason to own one? >> >> http://pcexchange-net.stores.yahoo.net/sunmipcica40.html > > I wasn't able to track down much of anything other than sale listings > on this card, but from what I remember about it, it's primary function > is an embedded PC for running Windows and whatnot. I do not recall > what the latest version of Solaris supports it, but I'd be surprised > if it's still supported under Solaris 10. For $18.95 (w/shipping), > it's _almost_ worth getting one to see if it can be run standalone as > an embedded PC... I see what looks like a space to install an IDE > connector, but the BIOS might only know how to talk to some > application running on the Sun, with a "soft" video adapter (as the > A2088 Bridgeboard did in the Amiga). I occasionally have cause to > want a smallish PC running some embedded task (smart cacheing webcam, > network-attached readout for system status, etc), so as long as I can > stick a flash card in an IDE adapter, attach a network interface, and > hang my peripherals off of parallel and/or serial ports, that's enough > - it doesn't have to have its own video interface. > > Anyone have any detailed docs on this card? I don't have docs, but I've used them quite a bit. This one is worthless...While this is a current product, this particular one is its first incarnation, is a very limited design, and has not been supported by (and won't actually work with) the SunPCi drivers for a very long time. The best you'll be able to do with this card will likely be Solaris 7 or possibly 8. This card was quickly replaced by the SunPCi-II, which will run with current releases of Solaris, and will run recent Microsoft OSs. The SunPCi-IIIpro is the current incarnation of this product. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Mar 15 13:57:40 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:57:40 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill Message-ID: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> I've had it with the Computerworks in Austin. Please let me rant; nobody else will appreciate it. http://www.austingoodwill.org/crs/store%20locater%20pages/ComputerWorks.html When I moved to Austin a couple years ago, I had high hopes. In the San Francisco Bay area, you could spend a saturday hitting half a dozen Goodwill's, looking for gems. Sometimes they appeared, often not. In Austin (and San Antonio, and probably some other cities) Goodwill sends all of their computer donations to a specialized goodwill, marketed as "ComputerWorks"; the theory is that most goodwill's don't have skilled employees to know what is interesting or not and how to price it; I agree that is the case. The Austin Computerworks even has a vintage computer museum, so that led me to believe the appreciated vintage computers. https://www.austincomputerworks.org/museum/index.html Bzzt. Not so. Clue #1: the "museum" hasn't been open in the eight or so times I've stopped by. Their hours are sunday 1-5, monday 9-11, wed 1-3. 8 hours a week. One time I snuck in when the door was open and had a look -- it is a hands-off museum. Each of the 20 or so machines has a 5x7 card fully explaining what is interesting about the machine and how it fits in to the tapestry of computing ... not. Name, date, and manufacturer is about all. Clue #2: they got rid of 80% of their books, leaving only "popular" titles. Clue #3: they never have any vintage computers for sale when I'm there. A year ago I had dropped off an HP 85, an HP86, and 30 lbs of software and manuals, even replacement paper for the 85's printer. I was nervous when they told me to go around to the side to drop it off at the general donation dock, but I did it. Today before donating, I asked a few questions. Me: I have an apple II+, and apple IIe, and a kaypro 10 to donate. Are you interested in them? Clerk: Yes, sir, we are! Drive around the side to the loading dock and drop them off there. Me: I've been here a dozen times (I'm stretching the truth with him to make a point) and I've never seen any old computers for sale -- I mean, 70's micros. Him: Oh, we get them, but most people aren't interested. Me: So what do you do when you get them? Him: We send them to a room where were separate out the metal from the plastic and ... Me: (interrupting) Wait a second... you mean you don't even try to sell them to that segment of the market that is interested in them, for nostalgia's sake or whatever? You just trash them? Him: No sir, as I just explained, we don't throw them away. We separate out the metal from the plastic ... (I didn't hear the rest as I walked away) So the nice hp 85 and 86 that I donated last year with docs and apps, memory expansion carts, serial interface carts, and which was in much better condition than the one in their museum, never saw the light of day. Bastards. What makes this even more insidious is that when I go to the local run of the mill goodwills and inquire about what they do with old computer donations, they say they ship them to computer works to deal with them. So essentially it is a vintage computer magnet attached to a wood chipper. I understand that goodwill gets far more stuff than can ever sell, but to not even try is sickening. There was no hint of regret about it from the clerk -- in fact, he was rather proud that they were recycling bits of them vs tossing them whole. After leaving the computerworks, I drove a mile or two up the road the to recently mentioned MC Howard electronics. They have room for lots of funky stuff, and they were happy to accept them. Phew, I feel better. Now I need to write a rant to the goodwill organization to enlighten them on the subject. PS: Doc Shipley, don't bother driving to MC Howard to get the kaypro 10, if you were. I have a nicer one that I'm still sitting on for you to collect some day. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 15 15:12:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:12:38 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <45F9A8B6.7060700@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Battle wrote: > So essentially it is a vintage computer magnet attached to a wood chipper. I expect that's sadly a common thing. I've certainly complained on here about my local (UK) computer recycler doing the same thing - and it's sad to to all the vintage stuff there awaiting tearing apart whenever I visit. Realistically though to these people it's just a money-making business moving resources around; faced with the immediate price they can get for scrap versus the longer-term price from vintage collectors, it's a no-brainer to them. > I understand that goodwill gets far more stuff than can ever sell, but > to not even try is sickening. There was no hint of regret about it from > the clerk -- in fact, he was rather proud that they were recycling bits > of them vs tossing them whole. Nothing we can do about it either, except make the effort to seek out some of the sources of the vintage stuff and divert it before it hits the "specialists". That's obviously easier said than done... cheers Jules From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 14:18:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <931421.85582.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> you're in Texas, perhaps you should have looked up Ross Perot. And an old computer to most people is just that - old and functionally useless. They'll chop up what you sent them the same as if it were a pentium I system. My advice is to make known to the folk in your area (the area being as big as you're willing to travel) that you salvage these items for donations and whatnot. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 15 14:33:46 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:33:46 -0400 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> <45F9A8B6.7060700@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001e01c76738$da068b80$0b01a8c0@game> I don't understand why people donate complete and working vintage machines to places that just recycle them, why not offer them in the forums of websites where people collect them or on freecycle or ebay? It reminds me of the local Angels for Animals here that advertises they find homes for unwanted pets (and have many people donating large sums of money for the cause) only to kill 99% of the aminals they get the day they show up. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 15 14:35:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Mar 15, 2007 01:57:40 PM Message-ID: <200703151935.l2FJZdcF006450@onyx.spiritone.com> > When I moved to Austin a couple years ago, I had high hopes. In the San > Francisco Bay area, you could spend a saturday hitting half a dozen > Goodwill's, looking for gems. Sometimes they appeared, often not. In It has been years since I've seen anything at any of the local Goodwills that resembles a "Classic Computer" here in Oregon. The best chance would likely be the "Stab and Grab" store, which is a big warehouse where they bring out massive bins, and people fight over the contents. I'm not kidding about the fighting either, when they bring out a new cart it's vicious. Within five minutes or less, anything that wasn't trash, typically is. I hate the place, but occasionally my wife drags me in there, though even she's basically had it with it, in part because the feeding frenzy really isn't safe to be around. The interesting thing about this "Stab and Grab" store is that it is where a majority of the book donations in the Portland area (if not Oregon) end up. They go into some secret (hidden) room, which isn't open to the public, and they sell them online. Don't even get me started on how they treat records, or the fact that you can often buy new stuff cheaper than the stuff Goodwill is selling! Yes, I have come to hate the stores. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 14:42:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:42:20 -0400 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200703151935.l2FJZdcF006450@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703151935.l2FJZdcF006450@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <E6F3EE4B-C074-47BA-8AC4-6687EDCDF0E7@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 3:35 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > It has been years since I've seen anything at any of the local > Goodwills > that resembles a "Classic Computer" here in Oregon. The best > chance would > likely be the "Stab and Grab" store, which is a big warehouse where > they > bring out massive bins, and people fight over the contents. I'm > not kidding > about the fighting either, when they bring out a new cart it's > vicious. > Within five minutes or less, anything that wasn't trash, typically > is. I > hate the place, but occasionally my wife drags me in there, though > even > she's basically had it with it, in part because the feeding frenzy > really > isn't safe to be around. Good heavens. So civilized behavior simply "goes out the window" at this place?? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From allain at panix.com Thu Mar 15 15:42:46 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:42:46 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> <45F9A8B6.7060700@yahoo.co.uk> <001e01c76738$da068b80$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <00cf01c76742$8e73ba80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I don't understand why people donate complete and working vintage machines > to places that just recycle them, why not offer them in the forums of > websites where people collect them or on freecycle or ebay? Load the car, unload the car. Ten minutes of overhead time. eBay/CraigsList/FreeCycle/Cristina Way: Gather and type information. Answer requests, wait one or two weeks. Ship if required. Take digital photos. Coordinate pick up times. Answer visitor calls. 30 ~ 90 minutes of overhead. This to help people understand outsiders way of thinking. John A. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 15 14:47:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:47:12 -0700 Subject: X.400 / was Re: ftp archives disappearing? References: <002201c765a7$72a099a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <45F7644B.334DAE71@cs.ubc.ca> <20070314202416.K80447@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45F9A2C0.948333E6@cs.ubc.ca> Andrew Back wrote: > > Well, X.400 still gets used in certain applications. I think the UK > military use it a lot, and gets used for transporting EDI messages between > in supply chain stuff. Also the basis for the Air Traffic Services (ATS) > Message Handling Services used in ground-ground comms between airports to > exchange flight plans etc. This is new, actively developed and not legacy. Interesting, I had no idea .. thought everything X.400 was buried in dust by now. FWIW, the project I worked on was the first X.400 implementation. We were 'on the air' in 1983 or 84. There was a near-simultaneous completely independant development at (IIRC) KDD in Japan (an R&D arm of NTT) and in 1984 we successfully transferred messages between the two systems (X.25 network layer) with a minimum of fixing required. Our system received a lot of attention in Europe as they were focussed on international standard protocols at that time. I saw a presentation in Italy in 1987 from DEC about their just- (or about-to-be-) released X.400 system. There was some consideration (or at least lip-service) in that era being given to changing the mail transfer protocol on the Internet to X.400. In 1987 I was asked on short notice to attend an Internet meeting/conference at Stanford to speak on our experience with X.400. Maybe if I had given a better presentation we'd all be using X.400 now instead of SMTP. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 15 14:48:22 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:48:22 -0700 Subject: OSI networking (was Re: FTP) References: <s5f7cf45.071@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <20070314203456.Q80447@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45F9A305.5FAE6758@cs.ubc.ca> Andrew Back wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Andrew Back wrote: > >> I vote we dispense with both, set up an FTAM responder, build an OSI > >> network, and bury this pesky Internet. > > > > This is sort-of like taking the most virulent strain of smallpox there > > is, bottling it up, and then deciding what to do with it. > > Harsh. > > > Some things were cool and are worth saving and continuing to use. > > Certainly talk, finger, etc., all the wonderfully simple TCP/IP services > > fall into this category. > > > > Other things (OSI networking and its implementation in DECNET Phase V) > > should be preserved in the computer industry's equivalent of the > > Holocaust Museum, or the CDC's smallpox samples, lest we ever forget. > > They literally sucked and wasted billions of dollars of otherwise useful > > effort from projects that could've used creativity and simplicity rather > > than seven layers of crappy beauracracy on crappy beauracracy. > > Well, thats one opinion. Personally I think these things embodied a lot of > good ideas and whilst sometimes a pain to set up can be interesting to > play with. Especially if you have done for a living and enjoy the odd trip > down memory lane. And surely this is not the 'pragmatic computing' mailing > list... Harsh, but not entirely unwarranted. As one who implemented a lot of that stuff I had mixed feelings about it. The X.400 P1 protocol itself seemed worthy, although there was some unspecified behaviour, at least at that time. For the session and transport protocols and some other issues I sometimes wanted to just throw up my hands: seemed to be a lot of looking backwards rather than forwards as to where networking was going. But I was young and naive and thought the standards organisations knew what they were doing. On the other hand a lack of (enforced) standards can lead to things like the html/browser wars of the 90's and another monumental waste of time and effort. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 15 14:49:18 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing In-Reply-To: <20070315165146.TGUK23400.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20070315165146.TGUK23400.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20070315124802.W28568@shell.lmi.net> From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Yeah, and I just ran a Nessus scan against a web server at work, > and it recommended that I close port 80 because it's a potential > security risk. The only way the data on a machine is 100% secure is > if the machine is disconnected from the network, powered off, and > sitting in a closet. "in a disused lavatory, with a sign on the door saying, "beware of the leopard"." From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 14:52:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:52:33 -0700 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200703151935.l2FJZdcF006450@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Mar 15, 2007 01:57:40 PM, <200703151935.l2FJZdcF006450@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45F94191.2323.4F9A8E4@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Mar 2007 at 12:35, Zane H. Healy wrote: > It has been years since I've seen anything at any of the local Goodwills > that resembles a "Classic Computer" here in Oregon. Zane, I believe that there's a very active recycling group there in Portland. If you periodically let them know what you're looking for, my experience is that something will turn up. They'd much rather find a good home for this stuff than have to tear it to pieces with volunteer effort. At least that's the case down here in Lane County. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 14:56:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Craigslist was Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <00cf01c76742$8e73ba80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <696471.82866.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> my guess is there is usually always someone within a 30-60 mile radius of where you live that is willing to pick up something oldt. Out of curiosity, who has p/u'd or bought something vintage on Craigslist. I don't make a point of looking there. ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From g at kurico.com Thu Mar 15 14:57:16 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:57:16 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <45F9A51B.7060303@kurico.com> Jim Battle wrote: > I've had it with the Computerworks in Austin. Please let me rant; > nobody else will appreciate it. > http://www.austingoodwill.org/crs/store%20locater%20pages/ComputerWorks.html > > > When I moved to Austin a couple years ago, I had high hopes. In the > San Francisco Bay area, you could spend a saturday hitting half a > dozen Goodwill's, looking for gems. Sometimes they appeared, often > not. In Austin (and San Antonio, and probably some other cities) > Goodwill sends all of their computer donations to a specialized > goodwill, marketed as "ComputerWorks"; the theory is that most > goodwill's don't have skilled employees to know what is interesting or > not and how to price it; I agree that is the case. > > The Austin Computerworks even has a vintage computer museum, so that > led me to believe the appreciated vintage computers. > > https://www.austincomputerworks.org/museum/index.html > > Bzzt. Not so. > > Clue #1: the "museum" hasn't been open in the eight or so times I've > stopped by. Their hours are sunday 1-5, monday 9-11, wed 1-3. 8 > hours a week. One time I snuck in when the door was open and had a > look -- it is a hands-off museum. Each of the 20 or so machines has a > 5x7 card fully explaining what is interesting about the machine and > how it fits in to the tapestry of computing ... not. Name, date, and > manufacturer is about all. > > Clue #2: they got rid of 80% of their books, leaving only "popular" > titles. > > Clue #3: they never have any vintage computers for sale when I'm there. Two events have led to what we have now. First was that the computer museum and their initial acknowledgment of classic computers was primarily driven by a single person who has not been affiliated with them for probably a couple of years now. This person started the museum back at their old location off of 183 and also helped to make sure that anything "interesting" didn't get "chippered". Second, the manager at the time, also gained a bit of an appreciation for the older computers by osmosis. At least enough to understand that there was indeed a market for the equipment and to ok and tolerate the museum (as well as helping to actually get an official museum when they moved to their new location). Alas, that manager is no longer there and "corporate" (who never really "got" the museum) has a much stronger hand in how that store is run, and frankly, I'm amazed the museum space hasn't been converted to retail yet. The computer works has been on a long slow steady decline, and while it hasn't reached rock bottom yet (they've rebounded some, when they first moved into their new location they tried to turn themselves into a computer retailer wannabe and there was much gnashing of teeth by the "regulars" and they've got a lot of the, um, "junk" back onto the shelves), I'm afraid things aren't looking up. How I long for the old days when they were over near Lamar and the train tracks and you could find all manner of interesting classics for dirt cheap. One FYI, often times when they say that they are "sorting it", they mean they are sorting it onto pallets and the stuff gets sent to their warehouse in East Austin to be auctioned. So they aren't necessarily consigned to the chipper, unless no one buys the pallet or the pallet is purchased by someone who doesn't want the "other" stuff that's on it. So if you have time (and unfortunately I don't), you can check out their weekly auctions (used to be Sat mornings) for stuff. WRT MC Howard, they will often times get interesting things in as well (they attend most of the local electronics auctions). You have to watch them a bit though, as a couple of times I've gotten the "I can get more for the thing as scrap" response to an offer to purchase some old box. Not the most pleasant bunch of fellows at first meeting, but _usually_ reasonable once you get to know them. George From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 15:00:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:00:34 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing In-Reply-To: <20070315124802.W28568@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070315165146.TGUK23400.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <20070315124802.W28568@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8986FC9D-E686-4D30-B06C-7E1D0196B936@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Yeah, and I just ran a Nessus scan against a web server at work, >> and it recommended that I close port 80 because it's a potential >> security risk. The only way the data on a machine is 100% secure is >> if the machine is disconnected from the network, powered off, and >> sitting in a closet. > > "in a disused lavatory, with a sign on the door saying, "beware of the > leopard"." Yes. :) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 15:02:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing In-Reply-To: <20070315124802.W28568@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <64207.95056.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> > From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > > Yeah, and I just ran a Nessus scan against a > web server at work, > > and it recommended that I close port 80 because > it's a potential > > security risk. The only way the data on a machine > is 100% secure is > > if the machine is disconnected from the network, > powered off, and > > sitting in a closet. Not according to K.Mitnick... ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 15:07:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:07:58 -0700 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <6E119C21-F282-4D4A-A356-37C611724A49@neurotica.com> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com>, <f4eb766f0703151114j1894b93rc189e002949af0fd@mail.gmail.com>, <6E119C21-F282-4D4A-A356-37C611724A49@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F9452E.15806.507C4FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Mar 2007 at 14:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't have docs, but I've used them quite a bit. This one is > worthless...While this is a current product, this particular one is > its first incarnation, is a very limited design, and has not been > supported by (and won't actually work with) the SunPCi drivers for a > very long time. Noted. I'll pass. I won't even discuss the $15 credit card terminal on the same site... :) Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 15 15:10:29 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <E6F3EE4B-C074-47BA-8AC4-6687EDCDF0E7@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 15, 2007 03:42:20 PM Message-ID: <200703152010.l2FKATS6007258@onyx.spiritone.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 15, 2007, at 3:35 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > It has been years since I've seen anything at any of the local Goodwills > > that resembles a "Classic Computer" here in Oregon. The best chance > > would likely be the "Stab and Grab" store, which is a big warehouse > > where they bring out massive bins, and people fight over the contents. > > I'm not kidding about the fighting either, when they bring out a new > > cart it's vicious. Within five minutes or less, anything that wasn't > > trash, typically is. I hate the place, but occasionally my wife drags > > me in there, though even she's basically had it with it, in part because > > the feeding frenzy really isn't safe to be around. > > Good heavens. So civilized behavior simply "goes out the window" > at this place?? Civilized behavior doesn't even come close. The best way to describe the "patrons" would be animals. If all that happens is you get pushed out of the way you're lucky. One might describe their behavior to be like starving refugees trying to get at an Aid Truck with food, but that would be an insult to most refugees! They charge by the pound. After peoples behavior, the chief complaint of my wifes about the place is that she'll find a box from something she's interested in, but it is empty as someone has taken the contents and left the box so as to save a couple cents. Zane From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 15:17:26 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the Tandy 2000 and GIFs In-Reply-To: <200703120352.l2C3qQb3063129@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <75393.44967.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> > >GIF was developed by Compuserve in 1987, although > at that > >point they were also pushing RLE images. Yes, > Lumena predates > >that by at least four years. > > > >AutoCAD is vector oriented, not pixel-oriented, > although at > >some point Autodesk may have introduced a tool that > rasterized > >a vector drawing and exported it as GIF. I meant in a general sense the only 2 "graphic" oriented programs for the 2000 (TMK) were Lumena and Autocad. Autocad is certainly a graphical program, albeit not pixel oriented AYPO. I don't know if Windoze had some type of Paint program back then (doubt it sincerely), but that is the only other possibility that comes to mind. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 15:26:14 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <45F9452E.15806.507C4FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <125185.91545.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 15 Mar 2007 at 14:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I don't have docs, but I've used them quite a > bit. This one is > > worthless...While this is a current product, this > particular one is > > its first incarnation, is a very limited design, > and has not been > > supported by (and won't actually work with) the > SunPCi drivers for a > > very long time. > > Noted. I'll pass. > > I won't even discuss the $15 credit card terminal on > the same site... > :) > > Cheers, > Chuck Weren't there a couple of these cards, like one with a Celeron and another with a P3. I have the Celeron version, but have yet to install it. Weirdstuff used to have 1 or the other also. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From g at kurico.com Thu Mar 15 15:28:38 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:28:38 -0500 Subject: Craigslist was Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <696471.82866.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <696471.82866.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45F9AC76.9060406@kurico.com> Chris M wrote: > my guess is there is usually always someone within a > 30-60 mile radius of where you live that is willing to > pick up something oldt. > Out of curiosity, who has p/u'd or bought something > vintage on Craigslist. I don't make a point of looking there. > > You do find the occasional item on CL. I think a lot of the people who were frequenting the *.forsale newsgroups that are now pretty much dead are turning to CL to avoid ebay. Probably the most exotic thing I've seen so far is a Canon Cat. Ads for things like old Atari's, Commodores, i.e. your more common classic items are not that uncommon. There was a person trying to sell their 5150 IBM PC, but it was the newer MB and had a 10GB hd installed, but they were still asking several hundred dollars (IIRC ~$400-$500). Even after I emailed them they still continued to post it at that price. So generally I'd say that it's worth keeping an eye out, esp since the prices _generally_ are better than ebay. George From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Mar 15 15:29:48 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:29:48 +0000 Subject: UK charity shops..Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F9A8B6.7060700@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> <45F9A8B6.7060700@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44af00c7747e7ed48f20575faaad590a@mac.com> On 15 Mar 2007, at 20:12, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: >> So essentially it is a vintage computer magnet attached to a wood >> chipper. > > I expect that's sadly a common thing. I've certainly complained on > here about my local (UK) computer recycler doing the same thing - and > it's sad to to all the vintage stuff there awaiting tearing apart > whenever I visit. > > Realistically though to these people it's just a money-making business > moving resources around; faced with the immediate price they can get > for scrap versus the longer-term price from vintage collectors, it's a > no-brainer to them. > >> I understand that goodwill gets far more stuff than can ever sell, >> but to not even try is sickening. There was no hint of regret about >> it from the clerk -- in fact, he was rather proud that they were >> recycling bits of them vs tossing them whole. > > Nothing we can do about it either, except make the effort to seek out > some of the sources of the vintage stuff and divert it before it hits > the "specialists". That's obviously easier said than done... > > cheers > > Jules > > British charity shops wont take any donation of mains powered appliances. This is due to the cost of safety testing needed before resale. The only places ive found to be any good is the local council recycling yard where you can "sneak" out a few items. Usually plenty of amstrads cpc and wpc's there, but i found some Sun stuff last week!! From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Mar 15 15:33:51 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:33:51 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <001e01c76738$da068b80$0b01a8c0@game> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> <45F9A8B6.7060700@yahoo.co.uk> <001e01c76738$da068b80$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45F9ADAF.4030608@pacbell.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > I don't understand why people donate complete and working vintage machines > to places that just recycle them, why not offer them in the forums of > websites where people collect them or on freecycle or ebay? It reminds me of > the local Angels for Animals here that advertises they find homes for > unwanted pets (and have many people donating large sums of money for the > cause) only to kill 99% of the aminals they get the day they show up. In my case, I didn't know that *this* goodwill just recycled things. Why did I stop by there instead of using ebay or craigslist? Lack of time. I knew I was going to be driving past, so I put a few machines in the trunk of my car that I knew I'd never have time for, or were duplicates. If it hadn't been for the unpleasant experience and detour, my incremental time cost would have been ten minutes, total, for the three machines. Ebay: Putting up a listing for ebay, along with appropriate sized decent photos, finding boxes, and packing appropriately (which takes a lot of time for heavy items), the email exchanges, answering questions, running to the post office -- 1-2 hours per item, I'd say. I will ebay things that are easily packed, or for which I expect a multi-hundred dollar sale price. Craigslist: I scan it pretty often, but I rarely see anything remotely interesting (from a vintage computer standpoint). The few times I've tried inquiring on items (not vintage), I don't get a reply, and the couple times I helped my wife sell something, it hasn't been worth the hassle of coordinating with unreliable people. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 15 15:37:20 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F94191.2323.4F9A8E4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 15, 2007 12:52:33 PM Message-ID: <200703152037.l2FKbKbI007944@onyx.spiritone.com> > Zane, I believe that there's a very active recycling group there in > Portland. If you periodically let them know what you're looking for, > my experience is that something will turn up. They'd much rather > find a good home for this stuff than have to tear it to pieces with > volunteer effort. > > At least that's the case down here in Lane County. > > Cheers, > Chuck I know there is "Freegeek" in Portland, I've not had any dealings with hem, and I've never bothered to look into "Freecycle" (I think that's the right name). I'm no longer actively looking for anything other than DEC software, or donations of documentation to the Conner-Bishop Historical Resource Center. While there are some things I wouldn't mind finding, such as more DEC HW, or an AS/400, I simply do not have the room for more. Sadly I know the answer to the question "can you ever have to much DEC stuff". The odds are, once we have a building, if not before, most of the hardware will follow much of my documentation collection and be donated to the Center. Zane From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 15:37:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Craigslist was Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F9AC76.9060406@kurico.com> Message-ID: <569772.63908.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- George Currie <g at kurico.com> wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > my guess is there is usually always someone within > a > > 30-60 mile radius of where you live that is > willing to > > pick up something oldt. > > Out of curiosity, who has p/u'd or bought > something > > vintage on Craigslist. I don't make a point of > looking there. > > > > > You do find the occasional item on CL. I think a > lot of the people who > were frequenting the *.forsale newsgroups that are > now pretty much dead > are turning to CL to avoid ebay. Probably the most > exotic thing I've > seen so far is a Canon Cat. Ads for things like old > Atari's, > Commodores, i.e. your more common classic items are > not that uncommon. > There was a person trying to sell their 5150 IBM PC, > but it was the > newer MB and had a 10GB hd installed, but they were > still asking several > hundred dollars (IIRC ~$400-$500). Even after I > emailed them they still > continued to post it at that price. So generally > I'd say that it's > worth keeping an eye out, esp since the prices > _generally_ are better > than ebay. LOL. Just before I left Long Island in the mid 90s some catalog came to the door (it could have been Damark, but I won't swear it) in which they were trying to peddle 5150s as "state of the art" machines for some terribly unreasonable sum, not at all unlike the ad you mentioned above. Now, this isn't to say that a 5150 was rendered totally useless by that time (albeit nearly so :( ), just that paying for it...anything, was out of the question. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 15:41:42 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK charity shops..Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <44af00c7747e7ed48f20575faaad590a@mac.com> Message-ID: <783364.6119.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- roger pugh <rogpugh at mac.com> wrote: > British charity shops wont take any donation of > mains powered > appliances. This is due to the cost of safety > testing needed before > resale. The only places ive found to be any good is > the local council > recycling yard where you can "sneak" out a few > items. Usually plenty > of amstrads cpc and wpc's there, but i found some > Sun stuff last > week!! And GB isn't nearly as litigious as the US, and yet the concern. I don't want to appear ignorant, but I don't think house fires and such are caused by toaster and puters in anywhere near the numbers that cigarettes and bad wiring are. God save the Amstrad! And the Nimbus!!! Woohoo ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From gtoal at gtoal.com Thu Mar 15 16:09:25 2007 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:09:25 -0500 Subject: Anyone seen Fred van Kempen? Message-ID: <45f9b605.XpHRqzEyvUuSm0t6%gtoal@gtoal.com> I've run out of address to try for Fred van Kempen... does anyone have an idea where he is nowadays? I know he dropped off the net once before, and I'm afraid he may have done so again. Unfortunately he has an old PDP11 disk of ours and I need to talk to him to decide what to do about it. Email me his current address please, or pass on to him that I'm trying to contact him please, if you're in touch with him. Thanks Graham Toal (Edinburgh Computer History Project) <gtoal at gtoal.com> From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Mar 15 15:51:25 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:51:25 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs Message-ID: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> Forwarding: >>> Georg Feil 15/3/2007 12:50 PM >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6454113.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6453339.stm very pretty... From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 15 16:01:21 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:01:21 -0400 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> <45F9A8B6.7060700@yahoo.co.uk> <001e01c76738$da068b80$0b01a8c0@game> <45F9ADAF.4030608@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <004d01c76745$16ffdda0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" <frustum at pacbell.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:33 PM Subject: Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill > > Why did I stop by there instead of using ebay or craigslist? Lack of > time. I knew I was going to be driving past, so I put a few machines in > the trunk of my car that I knew I'd never have time for, or were > duplicates. If it hadn't been for the unpleasant experience and detour, > my incremental time cost would have been ten minutes, total, for the > three machines. > > Ebay: Putting up a listing for ebay, along with appropriate sized decent > photos, finding boxes, and packing appropriately (which takes a lot of > time for heavy items), the email exchanges, answering questions, running > to the post office -- 1-2 hours per item, I'd say. I will ebay things > that are easily packed, or for which I expect a multi-hundred dollar > sale price. > > Craigslist: I scan it pretty often, but I rarely see anything remotely > interesting (from a vintage computer standpoint). The few times I've > tried inquiring on items (not vintage), I don't get a reply, and the > couple times I helped my wife sell something, it hasn't been worth the > hassle of coordinating with unreliable people. The funny thing is that the people with the items you like to collect have the same attitude, so anything not easily shippable gets recycled. I don't like shipping items either, but I keep a few boxes around from things I get so that if I do want to help somebody out with an item I don't have to run around to find boxed and packing material. The only thing I seen on craigslists that I wanted was a Supermac DigitalFilm card with cable, breakoutbox, and SCSI card for 68K Macs for free, but somebody had snagged it by the time I seem it. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 15 16:57:27 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:57:27 -0600 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070315153958.06530e38@mail> At 12:57 PM 3/15/2007, Jim Battle wrote: >What makes this even more insidious is that when I go to the local run of the mill goodwills and inquire about what they do with old computer donations, they say they ship them to computer works to deal with them. >So essentially it is a vintage computer magnet attached to a wood chipper. >I understand that goodwill gets far more stuff than can ever sell, but to not even try is sickening. There was no hint of regret about it from the clerk -- in fact, he was rather proud that they were recycling bits of them vs tossing them whole. I don't quite see the business model for this "Pre-1990 Computers" store. Somehow, magically, all the old computers arrive here because somehow, magically, the triage experts at the other Goodwill stores are able to differentiate between an eMachine and a Lisa. Somehow, magically, the manuals aren't tossed in the recycle bin and the disks get packed along. Somehow, magically, a store keeps it all together and finds shelf space and an accurate label for the bundle. Somehow, magically, enough nerds find their way to the store, and are grateful for it, but still expect to haggle on the prices. And this pays the overhead, salaries and rent? As opposed to the virtual certainty that if you train the minimum-wage helper, they will be able to hit the bin when they toss the old computer, where it will be shredded and net, oh, ten cents a pound. At 01:33 PM 3/15/2007, Teo Zenios wrote: >I don't understand why people donate complete and working vintage machines >to places that just recycle them, why not offer them in the forums of >websites where people collect them or on freecycle or ebay? At 02:42 PM 3/15/2007, John Allain wrote: >Load the car, unload the car. Ten minutes of overhead time. >eBay/CraigsList/FreeCycle/Cristina Way: >Gather and type information. Answer requests, wait one or two weeks. >Ship if required. Take digital photos. Coordinate pick up times. Answer >visitor calls. 30 ~ 90 minutes of overhead. Absolutely right. Far more than 30 minutes of overhead and hassle if you want to ship it. And if you're concerned about where these things are going, Freecycle and Craigslist won't warm your heart. You'll encounter people who think that any free computer is worth picking up, even if they are so clueless as to be disappointed later when they find it can't run Windows XP and then they throw it in the trash. And then there's the people who don't show up or the ones who will complain about what they've got if they do. - John From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 16:23:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:23:39 -0700 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070315153958.06530e38@mail> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070315153958.06530e38@mail> Message-ID: <45F956EB.18435.54D1005@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Mar 2007 at 15:57, John Foust wrote: >> I don't quite see the business model for this "Pre-1990 Computers" > store. Somehow, magically, all the old computers arrive here because > somehow, magically, the triage experts at the other Goodwill stores > are able to differentiate between an eMachine and a Lisa. Myopia is hard to overcome. Very few of the population at large are interested in collecting old computers, or vacuum cleaners or syrup bottles. This reminds me of some of my fellow tuba players who are shocked that not only do few people appreciate the beauty of Ralph Vaughan Williams' Concerto for Bass Tuba, but many music professionals don't even know of its existence. To many people, an old computer has all of the romance of an old lawn mower. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 16:26:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:26:24 -0700 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Mar 2007 at 16:51, M H Stein wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6454113.stm > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6453339.stm > > very pretty... Yes, but what's inside? Is this just another PeeCee? Cheers, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 16:33:51 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:33:51 -0700 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <E6F3EE4B-C074-47BA-8AC4-6687EDCDF0E7@neurotica.com> References: <200703151935.l2FJZdcF006450@onyx.spiritone.com> <E6F3EE4B-C074-47BA-8AC4-6687EDCDF0E7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <ded268c40703151433x5c448e9dwa312e17e435ed6ca@mail.gmail.com> > Good heavens. So civilized behavior simply "goes out the window" > at this place?? > The Goodwill asis store. There is one in Portland and one in Salem Oregon. It is worse than that. They fill bins of stuff, 3 foot by 8 foot on wheels. Everyone who can get close (20 or so people) lines up on both sides and at the given signal everything gets gone through, shredded almost immediatly. The stuff sits out about four hours and then they shovel the remainder into dumpsters, fill the bins and start over again. I think they rotate almost every bin twice a day, and this is in a huge warehouse at least 100 by 200. Most of it is clothing but they have four or five rows of misc and electronics. In the old store I once got a Tek 4112 Terminal and a Tek 4054 computer. They were ion the floor as they were too big to lift into the bin. I do check the new stores and do find items occasionally. A normal Computer bin may be full of monitors or Printers. If so the printers will be stripped of ink & toner carts almost immediatly, dismantling printers if need be, memory also. The few CPUs that make the bins are pulled apart for the cards and ram. It is very rare to find a whole computer within 20 minutes of being rolled out in the bin. Whole CPUs out of the bin are usually $5 because of the weight. So good ones dissappear in the first two minutes. I keep an eye out for commodore and apple stuff. It goes straight to the bins. However I don't make the asis stores as often as the regular ones. And then in Portland there is Free Geeks. I am a volunteer to get the 50 % discount in their thrift store, and to get my computer warehouse fix. However it is similar to any other recycling center. My 4 hours of volunteer work sometimes involve scrapping PC computers. I once pulled a Franklin Ace with drives out of the take apart pile and told them to put it in their collection. I have little confidence it survived though. Most of the people who work there are young and don't recognize old equipment. They do have a collection but not a museum. I bought an Intel IPDs from the thrift store there. It sat for months with me showing the only interest. I bought an Ultra one once but they wouldn't sell me the drives, pulled them right in front of me. At least I got the mounting screws and carriers. Mostly they build and sell linux boxes. Currently my favorite thrift store is NextStep in Eugene. They sell old software at reasonable prices. And have some older apple stuff. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 15 16:35:23 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:35:23 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> Yup, all high end PC gear, same as the Alienware machines. I'm a little disappointed in the case, it would've been nice for them to have at least did a default color design in the C64 colors (ugly as they may be) and a standard PC keyboard with the colors as well, and maybe come C= keys and such, would've felt more like they are trying then just a plain old box. Alienware PC's have really dominated that niche market, I'm not sure Commodore Gaming will be able to make much of a dent, but lets wait and see, hopefully they will. Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Mar 2007 at 16:51, M H Stein wrote: > > >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6454113.stm >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6453339.stm >> >> very pretty... >> > > Yes, but what's inside? Is this just another PeeCee? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Mar 15 07:03:10 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:03:10 -0400 Subject: SWTPC craze Message-ID: <0JEY00HSQ1DFL1F6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: SWTPC craze > From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:04:44 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > >On Mar 14, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Jay West wrote: >> To which Richard replied.... >>> Dude. 10 years ago I don't know if this "hobby" was on anyone's >>> radar. >> I beg to differ. There's quite a few listmembers here that were >> active in the hobby 10+ years ago. I'm also certain there were a >> good number of people doing it well over 10 years ago that still >> aren't on this list. A relative newcomer to the hobby wouldn't >> usually be aware of this. Just because this list wasn't around 15 >> years ago doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of people collecting. > > >10 years ago, I was adopting and hacking on PDP-8 and PDP-11 >systems because it was fun, and I thought it was important to >understand and preserve the technology. I don't think I ever really >considered the notion of it being "a hobby" or any other structured, >labelable/quantifiable thing. I just *did* it, because I wanted to. >Just like today...except now it has a name. > > -Dave Wow! Ten years ago I'd been at it collecting that is for more than 20 years. So yes collecting computers is far older than that. DEC had a computer history collection in their MRO facility going back to before 1983. Allison From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 15 17:00:50 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:00:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:*>> snip <<* Nope, there is no such header in any UNIX implementation that I'm aware of. The "magic number" you speak of isn't part of any header...the "file" program opens the target file, looks at the first few bytes, and then looks up the pattern in its database to arrive at an *educated guess* as to the type of file it's looking at...for example, if bytes 7-10 of the file are 0x4a464946 (ascii "JFIF"), it is most likely (but not definitely!) a JPEG image file. Similarly, if bytes 1-6 are 0x474946383961 (ascii "GIF89a") the file is most likely a v89a GIF image file, and if bytes 1-8 are 0xfeedface, it's a Mach-O executable from a MacOS X system. It is important to understand, though, that this has nothing at all to do with the operating system, and there is no common header format of any sort. It just so happens that many types of files are consistent in what their first few bytes contain. Is the 0xfeedface ascii or hex?! ;) Was that deliberate or purely accidental, and who was behind it? I agree with what you are saying. When i was writing a program that involved using images on my Amiga I discovered that the .IFF files always had the same ASCII within the first 20 bytes (well bytes 1-8 and 16-20, or thereabouts). I never realised that the same was true about most file types. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 17:17:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:17:53 -0400 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F96EA0.10702@frixxon.co.uk> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141521l17dd4405pf66dd304c59f305d@mail.gmail.com> <E308EF20-ED0F-4E0C-9397-30B451E7EB6D@neurotica.com> <45F96EA0.10702@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <B3F5FA79-ADEB-46B9-BD67-94C32D1E74E8@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Paul Williams wrote: >> The VT100 uses an 8085, FYI. I don't recall what the VT220/ >> VT240 use. > > The VT100 uses an 8080. You may be thinking of the VT101/102, but I > don't have one here to check. You are absolutely correct; I have no idea what I was thinking...sorry about that! > The text terminals from the VT220 upwards mostly use 8051-family > microcontrollers. Now that's cool. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 17:27:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:27:19 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F99BBB.5010904@yahoo.co.uk> References: <C21EAD33.895C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <45F99BBB.5010904@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <782FC0DC-6903-4C90-A571-EC16633C16D4@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Look at the man pages for the "file" command on your system to >> see where it stores its database. > > Traditionally it was /etc/magic wasn't it? Here it seems to be /etc/ > file/magic though. It used to be /etc/magic, but that has been changed in some systems. In current MacOS X, it's /usr/share/file/magic, for example. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 15 17:32:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F956EB.18435.54D1005@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 15, 2007 02:23:39 PM Message-ID: <200703152232.l2FMWL0D011191@onyx.spiritone.com> > are interested in collecting old computers, or vacuum cleaners or > syrup bottles. You mean there are other Syrup Bottle collectors out there? Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 15 17:42:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <ded268c40703151433x5c448e9dwa312e17e435ed6ca@mail.gmail.com> from "Paxton Hoag" at Mar 15, 2007 02:33:51 PM Message-ID: <200703152242.l2FMgc3w011502@onyx.spiritone.com> > The Goodwill asis store. There is one in Portland and one in Salem > Oregon. It is worse than that. They fill bins of stuff, 3 foot by 8 > foot on wheels. Everyone who can get close (20 or so people) lines up > on both sides and at the given signal everything gets gone through, > shredded almost immediatly. Paxton, The one I'm talking about is in Hillsboro, it's on TV highway across from Fred Meyers, next to "Movies on TV". Is the one in Portland still in the old Textile factory? I managed years ago to get a nice Apple IIe enhanced and a box of Victrola records there. > I bought an Intel IPDs from the thrift store there. It sat for months > with me showing the only interest. I bought an Ultra one once but they > wouldn't sell me the drives, pulled them right in front of me. At > least I got the mounting screws and carriers. Mostly they build and > sell linux boxes. Why on earth did they pull the drives? They wouldn't be able to use SCA drives. > Currently my favorite thrift store is NextStep in Eugene. They sell > old software at reasonable prices. And have some older apple stuff. Have you found any good sources for DEC HW in Salem? I notice quite a bit shows up on eBay that is located there. I really don't make it out of my area, so haven't gone scouting around down there. For that matter there is a store near me that is supposed to be good, but I've not checked out their new location. Zane From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Mar 15 17:43:35 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:43:35 +0000 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <45F90D46.13699.42D637E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net>, <45F96A18.3020504@srv.net> <45F90D46.13699.42D637E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45F9CC17.104@gifford.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Freecycle in some areas can be very good. This past week, one of the > local freecyclers unloaded his attic full of C64 and C128 stuff. (No, > I didn't get it) I got an Atari Jaguar on FreeCycle just the other day, from someone about 10 minutes walk from my home. With instructions and a game called "Cannon Fodder". -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 17:44:35 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:44:35 -0400 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <125185.91545.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <125185.91545.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D19FE2D-5D2C-4A49-AFAF-E6D4FB32E208@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Chris M wrote: > Weren't there a couple of these cards, like one with > a Celeron and another with a P3. I have the Celeron > version, but have yet to install it. Weirdstuff used > to have 1 or the other also. The one Chuck found is a SunPCi-I. There's a -II, a -IIpro (which I have), a -III, and a -IIIpro (which is current). The -II is the most recent one that is useful. It takes a very slight tweak to get it running under Solaris 10. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 17:48:51 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:48:51 -0400 Subject: UK charity shops..Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <783364.6119.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <783364.6119.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72613FF1-2EBB-40ED-9EBF-3AB6669EBC14@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Chris M wrote: >> British charity shops wont take any donation of >> mains powered >> appliances. This is due to the cost of safety >> testing needed before >> resale. The only places ive found to be any good is >> the local council >> recycling yard where you can "sneak" out a few >> items. Usually plenty >> of amstrads cpc and wpc's there, but i found some >> Sun stuff last >> week!! > > And GB isn't nearly as litigious as the US, and yet > the concern. I don't want to appear ignorant, but I > don't think house fires and such are caused by toaster > and puters in anywhere near the numbers that > cigarettes and bad wiring are. Well keep in mind...those chaps across the pond use much higher line voltage than we do. I'm not all that afraid of 110V...but 220V *SCARES* me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Mar 15 17:56:17 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:56:17 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <45F9CF11.3090605@mdrconsult.com> Jim Battle wrote: > I've had it with the Computerworks in Austin. Please let me rant; > nobody else will appreciate it. > http://www.austingoodwill.org/crs/store%20locater%20pages/ComputerWorks.html > > Phew, I feel better. Now I need to write a rant to the goodwill > organization to enlighten them on the subject. Don't bother. Right before they moved from the old location somebody donated a complete MV-II. I offered to list the config and get it running for them, and after talking to the general manager, the bottom line was "Don't bother. It'll never get powered up again." What goes into that so-called Museum seems dictated solely by the value determined by Completed Listings on Ebay. If there aren't any, it obviously has no value. If I need a SCSI cable or a cheap CDROM drive or low-end AGP video card, I go up there. That's about all they're worth anymore. It wasn't always like this. I walked in one day and walked out with a VS4000/VLC and its VT320 for $5. My IBM tabletop 9-track cost $10 (and a near-hernia!) > PS: Doc Shipley, don't bother driving to MC Howard to get the kaypro 10, > if you were. I have a nicer one that I'm still sitting on for you to > collect some day. Heh. I was there when you were. I saw the Apples on the way out and wondered how I missed them when I went in. I can't say enough good things about those guys. Mel spent about 20 minutes in the storeroom today, finding me a $3 part. I'll get with you offlist about the Kaypro. Doc From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 15 18:05:11 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:05:11 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > > Is the 0xfeedface ascii or hex?! ;) Was that deliberate or purely accidental, and who was behind it? > It's hex. It's one of the "usual" hex patterns that "spell" out words using only 0-9 and a-f. Here are a couple of others that I've seen & used in projects: 0xdeadbeef, 0xc0edbabe. There are others, but I don't have them off the top of my head. -- TTFN - Guy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 15 19:09:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:09:29 -0700 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200703152232.l2FMWL0D011191@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703152232.l2FMWL0D011191@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45F9E039.8090007@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>are interested in collecting old computers, or vacuum cleaners or >>syrup bottles. > You mean there are other Syrup Bottle collectors out there? Does having two or three in the back of the fridge count for the last few ... um years? > Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 18:11:28 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:11:28 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> Wow, that's a fantastic idea...and such a sound business model, it's sure to be highly profitable. After all, there's such a shortage of PC hardware on the market, especially the overpriced "decorated" stuff. -Dave On Mar 15, 2007, at 5:35 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yup, all high end PC gear, same as the Alienware machines. I'm a > little disappointed in the case, it would've been nice for them to > have at least did a default color design in the C64 colors (ugly as > they may be) and a standard PC keyboard with the colors as well, > and maybe come C= keys and such, would've felt more like they are > trying then just a plain old box. Alienware PC's have really > dominated that niche market, I'm not sure Commodore Gaming will be > able to make much of a dent, but lets wait and see, hopefully they > will. > > > Curt > > > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 15 Mar 2007 at 16:51, M H Stein wrote: >> >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6454113.stm >>> >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6453339.stm >>> >>> very pretty... >>> >> >> Yes, but what's inside? Is this just another PeeCee? >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> >> >> > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 15 18:22:21 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:22:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <45F9CC17.104@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <81407.23729.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> John Honniball <coredump at gifford.co.uk> wrote: I got an Atari Jaguar on FreeCycle just the other day, from someone about 10 minutes walk from my home. With instructions and a game called "Cannon Fodder". -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk Cool. You should look out for the CD unit for the Jaguar. I haven't seen it on ebay (that doesn't mean it hasn't *been* on there) and I haven't seen it in local 2nd-hand shops either. I assume you are familar with Cannon Fodder? It was (and still is) a classic game. A forerunner to Command & Conquer if you will, but focusing on the troops only (though they can go in vehicles). A classic game which I have for my Sega Megadrive (Genesis for those of you in the US) and Amiga CD32 - the only difference is that the CD32 version has the intro song in full, and may be considered offensive to certain people. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Mar 15 18:28:43 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:28:43 +0000 Subject: UK charity shops..Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <72613FF1-2EBB-40ED-9EBF-3AB6669EBC14@neurotica.com> References: <783364.6119.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <72613FF1-2EBB-40ED-9EBF-3AB6669EBC14@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8db38714769dddb9ef9cb24cafd4c586@mac.com> On 15 Mar 2007, at 22:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 15, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> British charity shops wont take any donation of >>> mains powered >>> appliances. This is due to the cost of safety >>> testing needed before >>> resale. The only places ive found to be any good is >>> the local council >>> recycling yard where you can "sneak" out a few >>> items. Usually plenty >>> of amstrads cpc and wpc's there, but i found some >>> Sun stuff last >>> week!! >> >> And GB isn't nearly as litigious as the US, and yet >> the concern. I don't want to appear ignorant, but I >> don't think house fires and such are caused by toaster >> and puters in anywhere near the numbers that >> cigarettes and bad wiring are. > > Well keep in mind...those chaps across the pond use much higher line > voltage than we do. I'm not all that afraid of 110V...but 220V > *SCARES* me. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > VOLTS BOLT, AMPS KILL as i was taught.. just blame the nanny state here!!!!!! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 15 18:39:13 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F9E039.8090007@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 15, 2007 05:09:29 PM Message-ID: <200703152339.l2FNdDLw012852@onyx.spiritone.com> woodelf wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>are interested in collecting old computers, or vacuum cleaners or > >>syrup bottles. > > > > You mean there are other Syrup Bottle collectors out there? > > Does having two or three in the back of the fridge count for the last few ... > um years? Probably not. Mine is a very small collection. Just 1 of each of the 4 "Log Cabin" Syrup bottles done to celebrate the Bicentenial in brown glass, and a duplicate of one in clear glass. Oh, and the syrup has been gone from them for 30 years or more. :^) Zane From josefcub at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 18:43:46 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:43:46 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <9e2403920703151643h11a26bb9w1b6a00ddc06bee31@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net> wrote: > I've had it with the Computerworks in Austin. Please let me rant; > nobody else will appreciate it. > http://www.austingoodwill.org/crs/store%20locater%20pages/ComputerWorks.html > > When I moved to Austin a couple years ago, I had high hopes. In the San <snipping the rest of the rant> I agree with you wholeheartedly. Years ago, Austin's Goodwill Computerworks had all sorts of 70s and 80s micros, parts and equipment, and their museum was open and impressive. Three years ago, I stopped in and noticed everything interesting was behind the counter. Me: "What's that stuff back there, is it for sale?" Clerk: "Ebay." Me: "Can I see x?" Clerk: "It's for Ebay." Me: "So nothing's for sale here anymore?" Clerk: "Go on Ebay to buy it." and I haven't been back since. I used to save up every penny to go to the GWCW once a week to find something special or interesting in their piles... Well, I haven't been back, and I likely never will considering your story. (I'm just glad I rescued the parts that I did from them, including a $10 Apple IIe with SCSI, RAMWorks, RAMFactor, and Transwarp IIe!) But sadly, those days are gone. And with the VCM and eBay both too expensive for me, I guess I'm stuck out. :( I also miss the interesting people you'd meet there going on. From run-of-the-mill crazy people to actual geeks that worked on some of the vintage stuff and knew more about it than I ever will. It was a bona fide club... ...Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 15 18:49:55 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200703152352.TAA26337@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Is the 0xfeedface ascii or hex?! ;) > It's hex. But as hex it gives only four bytes, and Dave (McGuire) said 8 bytes: > [...] most likely a v89a GIF image file, and if bytes 1-8 are > 0xfeedface, it's a Mach-O executable from a MacOS X system. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 19:01:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:01:19 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Mar 2007 at 16:05, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > It's hex. It's one of the "usual" hex patterns that "spell" out words > using only 0-9 and a-f. Here are a couple of others that I've seen & > used in projects: 0xdeadbeef, 0xc0edbabe. There are others, but I > don't have them off the top of my head. Bored programmers. On the CDC STAR, we had DEAD codes for system crashes. IIRC, DEADBEEF was the panic code for the pager faulting for a non-resident page (The pager can't page itself, so this was a "you can't get here from there" type of error). 64 bit hex does give you more than octal. We had DEADCACA, DEADFACE, etc. Some idiot used C0CAC01A as his "magic number"). This would be about 1972-73 on a 64-bit supercomputer. Is there a DEADBEEF that precedes this? When someone asks me "why use hex and not octal?", my response generally is "Because you can spell really stupid things with hex". Cheers, Chuck From g-wright at att.net Thu Mar 15 19:01:51 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:01:51 +0000 Subject: Data General DG/500 - Help Message-ID: <031620070001.5556.45F9DE6F0004967D000015B421603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Robert Borsuk <rborsuk at colourfull.com> > > Hi All, > I just got in a Data General DG/500 (this is the PC style computer > based on the microEclipse chip set). > Unforturnately, no docs or software can with the unit. Does anyone > have any info on this unit, or can > point me in the right direction. Even the connectors on the back are > non-standard. > > Thanks > Rob > > > Robert Borsuk > rborsuk at colourfull.com > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. > > I have the same problems here but did get some of the manuals from bruce @ "Nova's are Forever" He does read this list and sends links if he has time. I can E-mial what I have if needed. I did figure out the pin-outs for the connections on the back. Have not been able to locate the cables or the OS tapes. - Jerry Jerry Wright From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 19:07:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:07:27 -0700 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200703152339.l2FNdDLw012852@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <45F9E039.8090007@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 15, 2007 05:09:29 PM, <200703152339.l2FNdDLw012852@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45F97D4F.903.302E88@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Mar 2007 at 16:39, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Mine is a very small collection. Just 1 of each of the 4 "Log Cabin" Syrup > bottles done to celebrate the Bicentenial in brown glass, and a duplicate of > one in clear glass. Oh, and the syrup has been gone from them for 30 years > or more. :^) The fellow I'm thinking of had a garage stacked full of Mrs. Butterworth's bottles. I suspect that there's some deep psychological aberration involved with that... Psychiatrist: Well then, Mr. Jones, what seems to be the problem. Patient: My wife says I'm crazy. Psychiatrist: Why is that? Patient: She says I'm crazy because I like pancakes. Psychiatrist: Well, that's not usual. I like pancakes myself. Patient: You do? Would you like to come over and see mine? I have an attic full of them... Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 15 19:09:14 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Mar 15, 7 05:01:19 pm" Message-ID: <200703160009.l2G09EEN015414@floodgap.com> > > It's hex. It's one of the "usual" hex patterns that "spell" out words > > using only 0-9 and a-f. Here are a couple of others that I've seen & > > used in projects: 0xdeadbeef, 0xc0edbabe. There are others, but I > > don't have them off the top of my head. > > Bored programmers. On the CDC STAR, we had DEAD codes for system > crashes. IIRC, DEADBEEF was the panic code for the pager faulting > for a non-resident page (The pager can't page itself, so this was a > "you can't get here from there" type of error). AIX uses 0xdeadbeef for something too, IIRC. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Surrender" from "Tomorrow Never Dies" ------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 15 18:13:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:13:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <45F88969.5020200@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 14, 7 06:46:49 pm Message-ID: <m1HRz8t-000J11C@p850ug1> > > Tony Duell wrote: > > FWIW, in a couple of month's time I'll be 'celebrating' 21 years of > > computer collecting. I was certainly very active 10 years ago. > > On a Cambridge uni email address, according to our first contact in '96... Correct. That was my last (and only) paid job :-( Actually, I had a Cambridge e-mail addres swhen I started computer collecting 21 years ago. I was an undergrad there then. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 15 18:16:04 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:16:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <45F89A51.3060606@shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Mar 14, 7 05:58:57 pm Message-ID: <m1HRzB5-000J12C@p850ug1> > Yes, only one thing on the LTC. There's a transistor in the power > supply that is "unhappy" (ie you'll be opening up that power supply > again) if you put more than one load on the LTC line. Well, a BA11-K's PSU won't drive more than one device on the LTC line (although practical testing showed it just didn't work, it did do any damage, at least not for the time I ran it). But I didn't think the H742 had this problem. There don't seem to be any transistors associated with the LTC signal in that supply anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 15 18:12:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:12:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C482@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> from "Billy Pettit" at Mar 14, 7 04:25:11 pm Message-ID: <m1HRz7Z-000J0gC@p850ug1> > And I don't know anybody trying to put a hard drive in an analog TV. It > really serves no useful purpose. \begin{tongue-in-cheek} Try telling that to the guys at PPL (and elsewhere) \end{tongue-in-cheek} I will explain. At one time the action replays on (analogue) TV were recored on a special analouge hard disk. It rotated at the video frame (or maybe field) rate, and recorded the video signal as an FM encoded analogue signal on a track of the hard disk (there wre quite a few tracks, and a head per track). I think 3 separate tracks were used for a colour signal. PPL (one of the companies who made such device IIRC) sold a version of this unit with a DAC and FM modulator on the input, and a DMA Unibus interface to send data to the DAC. In that form it was a graphical output device for a PDP11 (and thus, amazingly, this thread is back on-topic, just...). I have one of the latter units, I've never set it up, but AFAIK it should still work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 15 18:49:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:49:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <45F91E93.3020707@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 15, 7 10:23:15 am Message-ID: <m1HRzhn-000J16C@p850ug1> > > On 15/03/2007 09:34, Rob wrote: > > One class of terminal that seems to have disappeared completely from > > history is the viewdata terminal. > > Yup. I needed one to access home banking a decade ago, and it wasn't > easy to find one, other than on a BBC Micro or an Archimedes. It was, of course, the same display (and attribute code) spec as the UK Teletext system. Many Prestel terminals used the teletext chipset, the application bnok for the later Philips teletext chips gives a viewdata terminal as an example application (Alas suitable code for the microcontroller is not in said book). Older terminals used the SAA50x0 series of ICs, of course. There was a chip called a LUCY (I forget what it stood for), SAA5070, which was the digital bit of the Prestel modem, a cassette interface, etc. Don't ask ne where to get one now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 15 18:36:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:36:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: teletype model 43 value In-Reply-To: <45F8F20E.8050407@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 15, 7 00:13:18 am Message-ID: <m1HRzUm-000J1EC@p850ug1> > > David Griffith wrote: > > The teletype model 43 appears much more often on Ebay than the ASR33 > > (which I've never seen there). Is there anything about the model 43 to > > make it worth acquiring? > > A quick google indicates it is your standard basic 110/300 baud remote > printing terminal. Depends on what you mean by 'standard' Minus-points include : It uses an odd ribbon that is probably unobtanium now It also uses a suprising amount of custom silicon (there are 2 custom 4 pin ICs on the mainboard, and more custom ICs on the keyboard) It doesn't have the mechanical interest of, say, an ASR33 or ASR35 Plus-points include : The printhead was designed to be field-repairable (unlike most dot-matrix printheads) so if you want to see just how it works you can dismantle it non-desttructively It has a real bell (and not a beep or a buzzing relay) It can, at least in some versions, handle a current loop interface Personally, i have a couple. I'm pleased I obtained them and do consider them to be an itneresting oddity. But I don't use one as a practical terminal now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 15 18:22:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:22:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net> from "Dan" at Mar 14, 7 10:07:08 pm Message-ID: <m1HRzHa-000J15C@p850ug1> > > > add one more place to that list-- Thrift stores. > I found an ASR-33 once back in '82 You were lucky!. In the UK, you almost never find interesting stuff in charity shops. We have some ridiculous lawas that mean that all srcond-hand (mains) electrical stuff has to be safety tested by a 'qualified person' and very few charity shops have the ability to do that. My best find in such a place was when I spotted what appeared to be the contact end of an HP41 module in a box of mobile telephone hands-free kits, etc. I extracted it and found it was an HP41 module wire to a box that claimed to be a Hand Held Products EPROM box for the HPt1 (!). Of course I grabbed it. [For non HP calcualtor enthusiasts here, the HP41 had different memory spaces for the user program/data nad for machine code (which officially had to be in HP ROM modules). There was no way to run a machine code program from the user RAM. There were 3rd party solutions for people who wanted to wirte/run machine code programs without having HP make a module, one of which was a unit that took normal EPROM chips and made them appear as a ROM module to the HP41). -tony From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Mar 15 19:11:08 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:11:08 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <007501c76760$7a0ef370$2b406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" <frustum at pacbell.net> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:57 PM Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill > I've had it with the Computerworks in Austin. Please let me rant; nobody > else will appreciate it. > http://www.austingoodwill.org/crs/store%20locater%20pages/ComputerWorks.html > > When I moved to Austin a couple years ago, I had high hopes. In the San > Francisco Bay area, you could spend a saturday hitting half a dozen > Goodwill's, looking for gems. Sometimes they appeared, often not. In > Austin (and San Antonio, and probably some other cities) Goodwill sends > all of their computer donations to a specialized goodwill, marketed as > "ComputerWorks"; the theory is that most goodwill's don't have skilled > employees to know what is interesting or not and how to price it; I agree > that is the case. > > The Austin Computerworks even has a vintage computer museum, so that led > me to believe the appreciated vintage computers. > > https://www.austincomputerworks.org/museum/index.html > > Bzzt. Not so. > > Clue #1: the "museum" hasn't been open in the eight or so times I've > stopped by. Their hours are sunday 1-5, monday 9-11, wed 1-3. 8 hours a > week. One time I snuck in when the door was open and had a look -- it is > a hands-off museum. Each of the 20 or so machines has a 5x7 card fully > explaining what is interesting about the machine and how it fits in to the > tapestry of computing ... not. Name, date, and manufacturer is about all. > > Clue #2: they got rid of 80% of their books, leaving only "popular" > titles. > > Clue #3: they never have any vintage computers for sale when I'm there. > > A year ago I had dropped off an HP 85, an HP86, and 30 lbs of software and > manuals, even replacement paper for the 85's printer. I was nervous when > they told me to go around to the side to drop it off at the general > donation dock, but I did it. > > Today before donating, I asked a few questions. > > Me: I have an apple II+, and apple IIe, and a kaypro 10 to donate. Are > you interested in them? > > Clerk: Yes, sir, we are! Drive around the side to the loading dock and > drop them off there. > > Me: I've been here a dozen times (I'm stretching the truth with him to > make a point) and I've never seen any old computers for sale -- I mean, > 70's micros. > > Him: Oh, we get them, but most people aren't interested. > > Me: So what do you do when you get them? > > Him: We send them to a room where were separate out the metal from the > plastic and ... > > Me: (interrupting) Wait a second... you mean you don't even try to sell > them to that segment of the market that is interested in them, for > nostalgia's sake or whatever? You just trash them? > > Him: No sir, as I just explained, we don't throw them away. We separate > out the metal from the plastic ... (I didn't hear the rest as I walked > away) > > So the nice hp 85 and 86 that I donated last year with docs and apps, > memory expansion carts, serial interface carts, and which was in much > better condition than the one in their museum, never saw the light of day. > Bastards. > > What makes this even more insidious is that when I go to the local run of > the mill goodwills and inquire about what they do with old computer > donations, they say they ship them to computer works to deal with them. > > So essentially it is a vintage computer magnet attached to a wood chipper. > > I understand that goodwill gets far more stuff than can ever sell, but to > not even try is sickening. There was no hint of regret about it from the > clerk -- in fact, he was rather proud that they were recycling bits of > them vs tossing them whole. > > After leaving the computerworks, I drove a mile or two up the road the to > recently mentioned MC Howard electronics. They have room for lots of > funky stuff, and they were happy to accept them. > > Phew, I feel better. Now I need to write a rant to the goodwill > organization to enlighten them on the subject. > > It's almost the same here in Houston now, they stopped selling computers in the store because of a law suite. Someone won a case in court because the goodwill sold their computer with their personal data on it. You can find monitors, keyboards, some other junk for sale but that's it. They have a "guy" that parks a empty trailer out back of the main door and ALL computers and electronic stuff are tossed into it for him to haul off. Really sucks as they get a large amount of goodies here. They no longer keep the good manuals or books either. John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 15 20:17:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:17:27 -0500 Subject: SWTPC craze In-Reply-To: <45F9CC17.104@gifford.co.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C481@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <45F8AA4C.2030600@comcast.net>, <45F96A18.3020504@srv.net> <45F90D46.13699.42D637E@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9CC17.104@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <45F9F027.6020005@yahoo.co.uk> John Honniball wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Freecycle in some areas can be very good. This past week, one of the >> local freecyclers unloaded his attic full of C64 and C128 stuff. (No, >> I didn't get it) > > I got an Atari Jaguar on FreeCycle just the other day, from > someone about 10 minutes walk from my home. With instructions > and a game called "Cannon Fodder". The Cambridge-area one is pretty good; they're up to around 5000 members now, plus the moderator's [1] a vintage computer nut so things are generally in safe hands :) I've had a few nice odds and ends for the museum from there. [1] "chief moderator" I suppose. I'm not sure if he actually founded the Cambridge list, but he's certainly "in charge" these days. Of course with that many members they have quite a few people moderating posts... cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 15 19:19:37 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:19:37 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45F9E299.6080006@atarimuseum.com> LOL!!! Good one Dave! :-) Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > > Wow, that's a fantastic idea...and such a sound business model, it's > sure to be highly profitable. After all, there's such a shortage of > PC hardware on the market, especially the overpriced "decorated" stuff. > > -Dave > > On Mar 15, 2007, at 5:35 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Yup, all high end PC gear, same as the Alienware machines. I'm a >> little disappointed in the case, it would've been nice for them to >> have at least did a default color design in the C64 colors (ugly as >> they may be) and a standard PC keyboard with the colors as well, >> and maybe come C= keys and such, would've felt more like they are >> trying then just a plain old box. Alienware PC's have really >> dominated that niche market, I'm not sure Commodore Gaming will be >> able to make much of a dent, but lets wait and see, hopefully they will. >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 15 Mar 2007 at 16:51, M H Stein wrote: >>> >>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6454113.stm >>>> >>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6453339.stm >>>> >>>> very pretty... >>>> >>> >>> Yes, but what's inside? Is this just another PeeCee? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Chuck >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 15 20:19:25 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:19:25 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <45F9F09D.7050507@yahoo.co.uk> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > It's hex. It's one of the "usual" hex patterns that "spell" out words > using only 0-9 and a-f. Here are a couple of others that I've seen & > used in projects: 0xdeadbeef, 0xc0edbabe. I seem to remember "beachbabe" in an exam once. The examiners were rather apologetic :-) From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Mar 15 19:22:37 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:22:37 -0500 Subject: Craigslist was Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <696471.82866.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <696471.82866.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45F9E34D.4080303@mdrconsult.com> Chris M wrote: > my guess is there is usually always someone within a > 30-60 mile radius of where you live that is willing to > pick up something oldt. > Out of curiosity, who has p/u'd or bought something > vintage on Craigslist. I don't make a point of looking there. I bought a complete Apple IIc with monitor, manuals, some software, mouse, carryall, and 2nd drive off Craigslist not too long ago for $25. A couple of years ago, I picked up a souped-up CompuAdd 286 for $15 off CL. Really good finds are rare, and neither of those was OMFG nabs, but it's worth looking now and then. Besides, the "Best of Craigslist" pages are guaranteed to steal several hours from you. :) Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 15 19:26:30 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <9e2403920703151643h11a26bb9w1b6a00ddc06bee31@mail.gmail.com> from "Josef Chessor" at Mar 15, 2007 06:43:46 PM Message-ID: <200703160026.l2G0QUVJ014093@onyx.spiritone.com> Josef Chessor wrote: > from them, including a $10 Apple IIe with SCSI, RAMWorks, RAMFactor, > and Transwarp IIe!) But sadly, those days are gone. Nice! > And with the VCM > and eBay both too expensive for me, I guess I'm stuck out. :( You can occasionally find a good deal as long as what you're looking for isn't to rare, or you get lucky. I got an SGI o2 with a 270Mhz R12k CPU for $250 on eBay when they were selling there for $1000. I timed watched for a couple months, and grabbed a "Buy It Now" when it came up. Last year I was able to set aside a little money for a *long* overdue upgrade to my main VMS system, it took 6 months of waiting, but I was able to finally get one at what I was willing to pay, in fact I timed it just right and got 2 for what I'd expected to pay for 1. Another example would be books, I wanted a pair of books, and it took me 2+ years of waiting to get a pair that I could afford. Of course then they stank of Cigarette smoke so bad that I couldn't stand to be around them. :^( Other books that I've waited months or years, for an affordable copy to show up on eBay have turned out a lot better. > I also miss the interesting people you'd meet there going on. From > run-of-the-mill crazy people to actual geeks that worked on some of > the vintage stuff and knew more about it than I ever will. It was a > bona fide club... We had the CP/M User Group swap meet a couple times a year here. Then from what I understand at the last one someone caused some problems (sold a sabotagued power brick), and they stopped doing them. This was probably 2-3 years ago. Now there is nothing really like it left around here. One thing I don't like about this area is a decided lack of swap meets or even flea markets. Now days everyone seems to simply dump stuff at Goodwill. On an interesting note, Goodwill now has a "Upscale Boutique" in Downtown Portland. We've not checked it out yet, as we rarely get into Portland, but I'm told it's very high end. Zane From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 15 19:27:41 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:27:41 -0600 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:42:30 -0700. <45F8EAD6.9070607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <E1HS0IH-0003KM-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45F8EAD6.9070607 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> writes: > Richard wrote: > > > The weirder terminals don't use a CPU at all. They use SSI/MSI TTL > > logic. > > I thought the weird ones used Delay lines and/or Core Memory. No, those aren't the weird ones. Those are the unobtainable ones. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 15 19:39:22 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:39:22 -0600 Subject: teletype model 43 value In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:52:49 -0700. <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703142251190.29466@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <E1HS0Ta-0000eA-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703142251190.29466 at helios.cs.csubak.edu>, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> writes: > > The teletype model 43 appears much more often on Ebay than the ASR33 > (which I've never seen there). Is there anything about the model 43 to > make it worth acquiring? It has a very satisfying clicky feel/sound to the keyboard. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 15 19:42:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:42:17 -0600 Subject: teletype model 43 value In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:36:25 -0000. <m1HRzUm-000J1EC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <E1HS0WP-0002ra-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <m1HRzUm-000J1EC at p850ug1>, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > It uses an odd ribbon that is probably unobtanium now What's so odd about the ribbon? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 15 19:43:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <200703152352.TAA26337@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <200703152352.TAA26337@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070315170039.T41827@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007, der Mouse wrote: > >> Is the 0xfeedface ascii or hex?! ;) > > It's hex. > > But as hex it gives only four bytes, and Dave (McGuire) said 8 bytes: > > > [...] most likely a v89a GIF image file, and if bytes 1-8 are > > 0xfeedface, it's a Mach-O executable from a MacOS X system. Microsoft .EXE files are differentiated from .COM files by the OS by looking for 'M' 'Z' as the first two bytes. Therefore, a .COM file could not start with DEC BP POP DX Was there really a Mark Zbikowski? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 15 19:44:32 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <007501c76760$7a0ef370$2b406b43@66067007> from "Keys" at Mar 15, 2007 07:11:08 PM Message-ID: <200703160044.l2G0iWnO014454@onyx.spiritone.com> > they get a large amount of goodies here. They no longer keep the good > manuals or books either. > > John I was dragged into a Goodwill last weekend, and while waiting for my wife to finish looking I glanced through the selection of books. I was quite amused to see that the *only* computer books they seemed to have was an entire shelf of "Dummies" books! :^) I actually use one book at work that came from Goodwill *years* ago. Zane From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 15 20:46:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:46:52 -0500 Subject: UK charity shops..Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <44af00c7747e7ed48f20575faaad590a@mac.com> References: <45F99724.8030305@pacbell.net> <45F9A8B6.7060700@yahoo.co.uk> <44af00c7747e7ed48f20575faaad590a@mac.com> Message-ID: <45F9F70C.8050907@yahoo.co.uk> roger pugh wrote: > British charity shops wont take any donation of mains powered > appliances. This is due to the cost of safety testing needed before > resale. Has that changed in the last six months? Six months ago it depended entirely on the place - the Sally Army shop in central Cambridge would PAT-test items for instance, but my nearer one in one of the outlying villages wouldn't. These days of course our wonderful government have probably passed some nanny-state law forbidding any charity store to take stuff :( > The only places ive found to be any good is the local council > recycling yard where you can "sneak" out a few items. Usually plenty > of amstrads cpc and wpc's there, but i found some Sun stuff last week!! My UK-local one's hopeless - everything seems to go to the local computer recycler, which is the same outfit that tear vintage stuff apart for gold scrap. cheers Jules From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Mar 15 19:47:34 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:47:34 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F9F09D.7050507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001e01c76764$b1350160$4804010a@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > I seem to remember "beachbabe" in an exam once. The examiners were > rather apologetic :-) Isn't that heptadecimal rather than hexadecimal? Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/722 - Release Date: 14/03/2007 15:38 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 15 21:11:51 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:11:51 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> I've written C code to make an educated guess at something on the order of 100 file formats, ranging from the dirt-simple tagged formats where the header is guaranteed, to the more free-form script language. This was for the "recognizer" code in a program that translated between file formats. Although the UNIX purist might argue that all is bytes, in reality for many folks, they routinely deal with known file types created by a relatively few applications. Knowing what's inside a file and how the user likes to deal with it is a handy function of a computer, no? You might as well argue that you don't like standard filename extensions becaues filenames are just bytes. If you don't have file(1) and you don't have filename extensions, what do you have? A lot of files that you don't know what they are unless you can look inside. - John From evan at snarc.net Thu Mar 15 21:38:35 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:38:35 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <00cf01c76742$8e73ba80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003901c76774$324a0ed0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> John's right. We can't have it both ways. Either we put the effort into ensuring our computers go to SAFE organizations, or we ... stop complaining about the lousy organizations. I vote for the former -- don't just vent to fellow collectors; DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. -----Original Message----- From: John Allain [mailto:allain at panix.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill > I don't understand why people donate complete and working vintage > machines to places that just recycle them, why not offer them in the > forums of websites where people collect them or on freecycle or ebay? Load the car, unload the car. Ten minutes of overhead time. eBay/CraigsList/FreeCycle/Cristina Way: Gather and type information. Answer requests, wait one or two weeks. Ship if required. Take digital photos. Coordinate pick up times. Answer visitor calls. 30 ~ 90 minutes of overhead. This to help people understand outsiders way of thinking. John A. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Mar 15 20:40:39 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:40:39 -0400 Subject: Data General DG/500 - Help In-Reply-To: <031620070001.5556.45F9DE6F0004967D000015B421603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <031620070001.5556.45F9DE6F0004967D000015B421603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <8A5A18F8-AA1B-4223-82CE-F5DD1D5A7FB4@colourfull.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 8:01 PM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > I have the same problems here but did get some of the manuals > from bruce @ "Nova's are Forever" He does read this list and sends > links if he has time. I can E-mial what I have if needed. I did > figure > out the pin-outs for the connections on the back. Have not been able > to locate the cables or the OS tapes. > > > - Jerry > > Jerry Wright Jerry, If you could spare the time, I would definitely like to get whatever you have. Pinouts, manuals. Whatever. On another note, does anyone know if the Desktop Generations (10,20, etc) use the same version of the OS? Maybe we could go that way to at least get it up and going. Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From fsmith at ladylinux.com Thu Mar 15 20:45:42 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:45:42 -0400 Subject: Introduction And Questions About Media Preservation? =?iso-8859-1?q?=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0?= "MostlyDecStuff" In-Reply-To: <200703150701.l2F70JsW087901@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703150701.l2F70JsW087901@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200703152145.42888.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Thursday 15 March 2007 03:01:05 am cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Dwight Wrote .. > There is at least one SA851 on eBay right now. One also > just sold for about $30. Yep I have my eyes on a couple. I am loathe to pay 30.00 for a untested drive though. -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Mar 15 21:15:48 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:15:48 -0500 Subject: Darkhorse Systems SIMM tester Message-ID: <45F9FDD4.9000300@mdrconsult.com> Does anyone have a manual for the Darkhorse Systems, Inc. SIGMA LC SIMM tester? Specifically, I'm most interested in the "COMM" port. What's the pinout, what's the protocol, and what are the speed/stop-bit/parity settings? Is it for attaching to a printer only, or can I connect it to a computer? Thanks! Doc From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 22:07:53 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Philips Micom 2001 in Rochester NY - pick-up only Message-ID: <20070316030753.10250.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Do not respond to me, please contact townmike at yahoo.com if interested. ------------------------------------------------ > Dear Sir or Madam: > > I have a Philips Micom 2001 that I no longer need > and I am wondering if you know someone who could use > it. I don't want to simply throw it away. I have > the operating software and the manuals, as well as > the printer that came with it. Everything worked > the last time that I used it. I don't have the two > countertops, but I may be able to get them. > > The computer is in Rochester, NY, USA. > > Please contact me if you know of someone who would > like this computer system. > > Thank you - townmike at yahoo.com > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 22:41:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:41:20 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> References: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703152041tc25ca49m206443ba3c445cb7@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote: > If you don't have file(1) and you don't have filename extensions, > what do you have? A lot of files that you don't know what they are > unless you can look inside. Sounds like what we had on the PET and VIC-20 and C-64. Commodore DOS (the one built into the ROMs of the IEEE-488 and IEC disk drives) allowed freeform names, and recognized 4 file types - PRG for "program file", meaning that the first two bytes were going to be a load address in memory for the remainder of the file, SEQ for "sequential file", meaning unformatted data, text, whatever, REL for "relative file", a sort of chained file that was useful for simple record-oriented files like databases, and USR for "user-defined file", meaning whatever you wanted it to mean. You could read and write sequential bytes in a PRG file or load an SEQ file or whatever; only the REL files were special to the ROMs. The various file types _did_ have default actions (load, read...), but could be overwritten by changing the string going to the OPEN call. Even though much older OSes had extensions long before the 2040 disk drive, extensions weren't used often in the Commodore world outside of assembly programming (where one saw the usual FOO.ASM, FOO.LST, FOO.OBJ patterns). BASIC programs were never (to my experience) written as FOO.BAS, and machine language patterns weren't known as .COMs or .EXEs or even .BINs. Just whatever name you wanted as long as it didn't have certain characters embedded in it (and the cursor control/color switching characters _were_ allowed!) When I got to use a UNIX machine and found file(1), that was _such_ an improvement. I stil l don't like OS-enforced extensions, but I've lived with them under VMS, OS/8, RT-11, DOS, etc. However, extensionless OSes are the minority, I think. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 15 23:12:23 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:12:23 -0700 Subject: Craigslist was Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F9AC76.9060406@kurico.com> Message-ID: <BAY138-F1A3909D700DB53F6B7BD4A3710@phx.gbl> >From: George Currie <g at kurico.com> ---snip--- Probably the most exotic >thing I've seen so far is a Canon Cat. ---snip--- Hi George Did you get the Cat? I'm always looking for more Canon Cat owners. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage refinance is hot 1) Rates near 30-yr lows 2) Good credit get intro-rate 4.625%* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2a5f&s=4056&p=5117&disc=y&vers=743 From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 23:24:22 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:24:22 -0700 Subject: Craigslist was Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <BAY138-F1A3909D700DB53F6B7BD4A3710@phx.gbl> References: <45F9AC76.9060406@kurico.com> <BAY138-F1A3909D700DB53F6B7BD4A3710@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703152124v3cabb741g84cb1c94815347cd@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >From: George Currie <g at kurico.com> > ---snip--- > Probably the most exotic > >thing I've seen so far is a Canon Cat. > ---snip--- > > Hi George > Did you get the Cat? I'm always looking for more Canon Cat > owners. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Mortgage refinance is hot 1) Rates near 30-yr lows 2) Good credit get > intro-rate 4.625%* > > https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2a5f&s=4056&p=5117&disc=y&vers=743 > > roar! http://schnarff.com/bad-magic-black-cat.jpe From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 23:31:25 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:31:25 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing In-Reply-To: <m1HRz7Z-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C482@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <m1HRz7Z-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703152131y7f5b27f1i180ba64453397f97@mail.gmail.com> can someone please provide me with their list of still online vintage archives? I'd love to help archive the archives before they're gone forever but I can't do that without knowing where they are...so please, help me help you, thanks! :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 23:37:07 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:37:07 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <E81C86B3-4769-4168-AF12-2E0BBB769DB2@neurotica.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C480@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <E81C86B3-4769-4168-AF12-2E0BBB769DB2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703152137ha161e8w49ba971f0ea00d34@mail.gmail.com> can someone please provide me with their list of still online vintage archives? I'd love to help archive the archives before they're gone forever but I can't do that without knowing where they are...so please, help me help you, thanks! :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 23:45:35 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:45:35 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <01C7669B.55ACCAE0@mse-d03> References: <01C7669B.55ACCAE0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703152145q22352e75tda1b093566a8787@mail.gmail.com> can someone please provide me with their list of still online vintage archives? I'd love to help archive the archives before they're gone forever but I can't do that without knowing where they are...so please, help me help you, thanks! :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 23:46:07 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:46:07 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703141956.l2EJuSVt013851@mail.bcpl.net> References: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> <200703131857.l2DIvlV3024444@mail.bcpl.net> <45F72FD1.1010709@frixxon.co.uk> <200703141956.l2EJuSVt013851@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> can someone please provide me with their list of still online vintage archives? I'd love to help archive the archives before they're gone forever but I can't do that without knowing where they are...so please, help me help you, thanks! :-) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 15 23:50:53 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> from Hex Star at "Mar 15, 7 09:46:07 pm" Message-ID: <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> > can someone please provide me with their list of still online vintage > archives? I'd love to help archive the archives before they're gone forever > but I can't do that without knowing where they are...so please, help me help > you, thanks! :-) Will you kindly cut that out, please? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 15 23:54:22 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> References: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> Message-ID: <200703160458.AAA08318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Although the UNIX purist might argue that all is bytes, in reality > for many folks, they routinely deal with known file types created by > a relatively few applications. Certainly. But that's a long way from expecting cat(1) to recognize the headers on mpeg files and convert two header+data mpegs into header+data+data instead of header+data+header+data. Especially given the chance of misfires, with cat curdling data that happens to look a little bit too much like sokme format it knows but isn't. If you want to make basic tools like cat(1) smart about file types, you really need out-of-band file types, which Unix simply doesn't have. (Such a thing could be layered atop Unix, but the result wouldn't be very much like Unix any longer.) > You might as well argue that you don't like standard filename > extensions becaues filenames are just bytes. If they're advisory, I think they're a good thing. If they're compulsory, I think they're a very bad thing. Just like file types in headers. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 00:03:40 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:03:40 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: > > > > Will you kindly cut that out, please? > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you > first. - > Well how come neither you or anyone else, no matter how politely I ask will help me help the cause? I keep posting in hopes of getting some kind of response...I don't know why people are just ignoring my request since it's a request to help the cause of preserving vintage files which is a great cause IMO...maybe the email is being put in peoples spam filters? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 16 00:10:38 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> from Hex Star at "Mar 15, 7 10:03:40 pm" Message-ID: <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> > Well how come neither you or anyone else, no matter how politely I ask will > help me help the cause? I keep posting in hopes of getting some kind of > response...I don't know why people are just ignoring my request since it's a > request to help the cause of preserving vintage files which is a great cause > IMO...maybe the email is being put in peoples spam filters? a. You posted it four times in the space of about as many minutes when once would have done. I don't think people, even if they wanted to respond, are likely to respond that quickly. b. Has it ever occurred to you that putting your leechbot on download is going to cramp the bandwidth allowance of whatever sites you point it at? You're not willing to host it and contribute, so why should those sites risk their ability to serve other people? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Traditionally, most of Australia's imports come from overseas. -K. Enderbery From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Mar 16 00:27:22 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 01:27:22 -0400 Subject: EISA problems Message-ID: <00da01c7678b$c6a51090$0b01a8c0@game> The other day I received a 2MB ATI Graphics Ultra Pro video card from a seller on ebay (one of the best 2MB EISA video cards that works with OS/2). My current system is a 486DX50 with a 1MB S3 based EISA video card. When I removed the S3 card and Installed the ATI one the machine would not boot, just beeped. I checked the jumper settings on the ATI to make sure it was VGA enabled and then tried setting the address for the card and still nothing. I put the old S3 in and all was fine. Now my problem is I get a EISA Inoperable message even with the s3 video card, the EISA configuration software I have finds the cards installed but gets a write error when trying to write the configuration to the battery backed chip (Dallas DS1225Y-200). So basically I can only boot to floppy (I have an ISA I/O card with floppy connected), while my 9GB HD connected to the EISA Adaptec card does not show up. Has my Dallas chips battery finally died on me (I had to replace the other Dallas RTC chip when I purchased the board last year, it still keeps time fine)? Did my installing of the ATI damage the Dallas chip by chance? Did I get a defective video card? I need to figure out what's up before I buy another EISA backup chip $15 and wreck it, and decide what to do about the ATI from ebay. Any ideas? From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 00:24:33 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:24:33 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: > > > You're not willing to host it and contribute, so why should those sites > risk their ability to serve other people? > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Traditionally, most of Australia's imports come from overseas. -K. > Enderbery > But I am willing to host it, just not in the traditional sense. The way I'm willing to contribute to the cause after "leeching" the files as you put it is: 1) Someone puts up a server or gets webspace for a certain type of vintage files 2) They ask here or somewhere else if anyone can contribute files to the archive 3) I stumble upon their request 4) I have the files they want so I gladly upload the files to their archive This way I take some bandwidth, I give back some bandwidth, I take some files, I give them back to someone else who wants it and that at the same time also results in many other people being able to enjoy them as well. Just because I don't have webspace or server to immediately host the files does not mean that they will never be released for others to download enjoy, it just means that it won't happen immediately but that it will happen in the future whenever they're requested. You see? I honestly am not trying to be a self centered jerk who just wants to rack up someones hosting bill to fill my own archive of file, instead I have a plan as outlined above for giving back in a alternative way which is just as good IMO as a replacement for webspace/server hosting the files since I don't have such available to me. I am very file safety conscious as well which ensures that files archived with me will last my lifetime. Currently my backup plan is such that all vintage files and other important files I get are stored on at least two storage mediums, preferably two hard drives depending on the file size(s) and the disk space available and sometimes one hard drive and one cd-r or dvd-r so either way there always is a recoverable method of the files. So, if someone would please help fulfill my request so I can help out and give back to the fellow vintage community it would be greatly appreciated...I am not trying to be dictatorial or self centered or a jerk, I am just trying to help out the vintage community... From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Fri Mar 16 00:39:14 2007 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:39:14 -0700 Subject: Data General DG/500 - Help References: <031620070001.5556.45F9DE6F0004967D000015B421603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> <8A5A18F8-AA1B-4223-82CE-F5DD1D5A7FB4@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <001801c7678d$702b3d00$6a85b044@netgear> G'day Robert - The DG/500 was a nice upgrade from Data General's Desktop Generation systems, including a PC-type form factor and a 30% speed improvement. Rev 3.0 of DG/RDOS runs on the /500 as well as the Desktop Generation systems. Perhaps the most high profile use of these venerable systems has been at NAPA auto parts dealers throughout the country. The TAMS application ran on multiple terminals in dirty, grimey, hot, cold and indifferent environments every day of the year. Most of the meager amount of DG information on these systems is on microfiche at this point but I will contact you off list with further details... Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borsuk" <rborsuk at colourfull.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:40 PM Subject: Re: Data General DG/500 - Help > > On Mar 15, 2007, at 8:01 PM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > >> I have the same problems here but did get some of the manuals >> from bruce @ "Nova's are Forever" He does read this list and sends >> links if he has time. I can E-mial what I have if needed. I did figure >> out the pin-outs for the connections on the back. Have not been able >> to locate the cables or the OS tapes. >> >> >> - Jerry >> >> Jerry Wright > > Jerry, > If you could spare the time, I would definitely like to get whatever you > have. > Pinouts, manuals. Whatever. On another note, does anyone know if the > Desktop Generations (10,20, etc) > use the same version of the OS? Maybe we could go that way to at least > get it up and going. > > > Rob > > > > > Robert Borsuk > rborsuk at colourfull.com > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. > From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 00:43:58 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:43:58 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> so yeah, tell me what to archive that'd be useful to keep around and I'll archive away, and then when someone wants the files I'll be able to give 'em the files right away :-D From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Mar 16 00:58:23 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 01:58:23 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hex Star" <hexstar at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:43 AM Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? > so yeah, tell me what to archive that'd be useful to keep around and I'll > archive away, and then when someone wants the files I'll be able to give 'em > the files right away :-D The way things normally work is somebody sets up a website/ftp with a few files and then asks for contributions and they slowly come in. The longer it is up, the more serious people take you. Also digging up content nobody else has (its called WORK) helps a great deal. You sound like somebody who is asking for current sites to leech from and then go your own way never to be heard from again until you want something else. From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 01:07:21 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:07:21 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > > > You sound like somebody who is asking for current sites to leech from and > then go your own way never to be heard from again until you want something > else. > > > er, I have over 10GB of vintage software already and gladly share it with people who request it(already have)...I do not just disappear after leeching files like you claim (where did that come from?)...I have already uploaded multi GBs to peoples vintage archives and will continue to do so as requested as long as I have the files requested in my archive...however if I don't know of archives that should be archived I can't archive them and that's where I'd appreciate help from you guys, you helping me in the end results in everyone else benefiting...I'm like a p2p node, people input upload requests (downloads for me) and I fulfill them, people later request downloads (uploads for me) and I fulfill them then on demand...I do not know how you came up with the conclusion that I leech and run away as I'm sure you have no proof for that as there is no proof of that because I've never done that...help me help you From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Fri Mar 16 01:21:13 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 02:21:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <45F9452E.15806.507C4FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOGEMDEKAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> Chuck, Do you need a Credit Card Terminal? If so I have one you can have for the shipping cost. Let me know and I will dig it out and give you all the specs and such. It is maybe 10 years old and is a Hypercom Unit I believe. Greg Manuel gmanuel at gmconsulting dot net > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? > > > On 15 Mar 2007 at 14:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I don't have docs, but I've used them quite a bit. This one is > > worthless...While this is a current product, this particular one is > > its first incarnation, is a very limited design, and has not been > > supported by (and won't actually work with) the SunPCi drivers for a > > very long time. > > Noted. I'll pass. > > I won't even discuss the $15 credit card terminal on the same site... > :) > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Mar 16 01:28:49 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 02:28:49 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hex Star" <hexstar at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:07 AM Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? Exactly how is leeching dry sites that allready exist on the net helping anybody out? You have to find things not generally available and upload those to be of any help to the comunity. Is any of this making sense to you? Posting the same message 4 times in a row in a few minutes makes you sound like a kid, why should anybody take you seriously? From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Mar 16 01:34:26 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 02:34:26 -0400 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> <f4eb766f0703151114j1894b93rc189e002949af0fd@mail.gmail.com> <6E119C21-F282-4D4A-A356-37C611724A49@neurotica.com> <45F9452E.15806.507C4FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <010f01c76795$251a7f30$0b01a8c0@game> A friend of mine had a SUN PC card (K6 based I think). From what I researched they seemed buggy, if the software controlling the card crashed so did the whole SUN system. http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=1255/urm9910a/ From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Mar 15 17:54:55 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:54:55 +0000 Subject: Anyone seen Fred van Kempen? In-Reply-To: <45f9b605.XpHRqzEyvUuSm0t6%gtoal@gtoal.com> References: <45f9b605.XpHRqzEyvUuSm0t6%gtoal@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <1173999295.5889.1.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 16:09 -0500, Graham Toal wrote: > I've run out of address to try for Fred van Kempen... > > does anyone have an idea where he is nowadays? I know he dropped > off the net once before, and I'm afraid he may have done so > again. Unfortunately he has an old PDP11 disk of ours and I > need to talk to him to decide what to do about it. Email me > his current address please, or pass on to him that I'm trying > to contact him please, if you're in touch with him. We were discussing this in the IRC channel recently. I don't know what became of the attempts to contact him. > Thanks > > Graham Toal (Edinburgh Computer History Project) If you're stuck for PDP11ish bits, I'm just a short drive along the M8 from you ;-) Gordon From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Thu Mar 15 17:56:51 2007 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:56:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <ded268c40703151433x5c448e9dwa312e17e435ed6ca@mail.gmail.com> from "Paxton Hoag" at Mar 15, 2007 02:33:51 PM Message-ID: <200703152256.l2FMupta006033@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> The Goodwill's by me (Milwaukee) stopped taking computers as donations all together and don't put any out, claiming recyclying issues. Started about a year and a half to two years ago. I found it ironic, considering they still take and put out video game consoles and every other form of similar electronics, as well as computer peripherals. Marty From mike at ambientdesign.com Thu Mar 15 18:54:53 2007 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:54:53 +1300 Subject: Mods, was Re: SWTPC craze References: <81407.23729.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <017901c7675d$53fc94b0$3c00a8c0@fluke> > I assume you are familar with Cannon Fodder? It was (and still is) a classic game. A forerunner > to Command & Conquer if you will, but focusing on the troops only (though they can go in vehicles). > A classic game which I have for my Sega Megadrive (Genesis for those of you in the US) and Amiga > CD32 - the only difference is that the CD32 version has the intro song in full, and may be considered > offensive to certain people. The aforementioned possibly-offensive (but not really) song: http://host.fenz.net/cannonfodder.mod Mods and their descendants are a really interesting phenomenon; for me, it marks the beginning of the really low-cost digital home music studio. There were lot of talented people who got a start with that format, largely thanks to the Amiga, and later, Amiga sound emulation (and extension) on the PC. I suppose the Atari ST with its built-in MIDI ports had an effect too, but then you needed the expensive MIDI sound gear to hang off that. In fact, there are still plenty of resources for mods etc. For example: http://www.modplug.com hosts a player and tracker that are still actively developed. Mike. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Mar 16 03:27:04 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:27:04 -0800 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <010f01c76795$251a7f30$0b01a8c0@game> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> <f4eb766f0703151114j1894b93rc189e002949af0fd@mail.gmail.com> <6E119C21-F282-4D4A-A356-37C611724A49@neurotica.com> <45F9452E.15806.507C4FF@cclist.sydex.com> <010f01c76795$251a7f30$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45FA54D8.7070502@msm.umr.edu> Teo Zenios wrote: >A friend of mine had a SUN PC card (K6 based I think). From what I >researched they seemed buggy, if the software controlling the card crashed >so did the whole SUN system. > >http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=1255/urm9910a/ > > > > I have one of the Chimera cards here, 128mb 733mhz Intel Celeron. I believe they open up a shared window on the pci bus to mirror their memory and some controls for the Intel cpu. It would not be surprising if they system crashed if you crashed the sun board. When sun announced open solaris, I was hoping that they would release the drivers for all these arcane cards. I have not tried to pull down a sparc open solaris, nor do I even know if they made it possible to build the sparc platform with the open source. However it would be interesting to be able to put up several of these cards in an Ultra 10 all running open solaris (if it is possible on the 256 mb you could put in) or linux. This is way off topic, but these will be interesting "vintage" cards to have just because Sun has now released Solaris so it should be possible to archive what it takes to have a fun toy for the future when it is vintage. It certainly would be an unusual system to have maybe 4 of these running in a box, co hosted by a sparc. These are plentiful now but will probably dry up soon, so picking the best ones and acquiring them would be a good idea. Hopefully those who have posted in this thread could post or email off list if this is too off topic to continue and suggest a workable setup. Jim From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Mar 16 02:41:55 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:41:55 +0100 Subject: Anyone seen Fred van Kempen? In-Reply-To: <45f9b605.XpHRqzEyvUuSm0t6%gtoal@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488310@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Graham Toal > Sent: donderdag 15 maart 2007 22:09 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: gtoal at gtoal.com > Subject: Anyone seen Fred van Kempen? > > I've run out of address to try for Fred van Kempen... > > does anyone have an idea where he is nowadays? I know he dropped > off the net once before, and I'm afraid he may have done so > again. Unfortunately he has an old PDP11 disk of ours and I > need to talk to him to decide what to do about it. Email me > his current address please, or pass on to him that I'm trying > to contact him please, if you're in touch with him. > > Thanks > > Graham Toal (Edinburgh Computer History Project) > <gtoal at gtoal.com> > > Al also would like to ask him a question. I will look out for Fred tomorrow ... the last time I spoke with Fred was exactly one year ago, on the big yearly HAM radio swap meeting in Rosmalen (approx 4600 visitors last year!). Fred is very into HAM radio nowadays, AFAIK. He has a Dutch and an American call sign. Tomorrow is that big yearly event ... - Henk PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 02:55:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:55:53 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3458A05E-1AED-4309-9B55-FD8853166510@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 6:00 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> Nope, there is no such header in any UNIX implementation that I'm >> aware of. The "magic number" you speak of isn't part of any >> header...the "file" program opens the target file, looks at the first >> few bytes, and then looks up the pattern in its database to arrive at >> an *educated guess* as to the type of file it's looking at...for >> example, if bytes 7-10 of the file are 0x4a464946 (ascii "JFIF"), it >> is most likely (but not definitely!) a JPEG image file. Similarly, >> if bytes 1-6 are 0x474946383961 (ascii "GIF89a") the file is most >> likely a v89a GIF image file, and if bytes 1-8 are 0xfeedface, it's a >> Mach-O executable from a MacOS X system. >> >> It is important to understand, though, that this has nothing at >> all to do with the operating system, and there is no common header >> format of any sort. It just so happens that many types of files are >> consistent in what their first few bytes contain. > > > Is the 0xfeedface ascii or hex?! ;) Was that deliberate or purely > accidental, and who was behind it? It's hex. There's no way that could've been accidental. I have no idea who was responsible for it, though. > I agree with what you are saying. When i was writing a program that > involved using images on my Amiga I discovered that the .IFF files > always had the same ASCII within the first 20 bytes (well bytes 1-8 > and 16-20, or thereabouts). I never realised that the same was true > about most file types. It stands to reason that this would be the case for many non-human- readable files. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 03:05:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 04:05:50 -0400 Subject: UK charity shops..Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <8db38714769dddb9ef9cb24cafd4c586@mac.com> References: <783364.6119.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <72613FF1-2EBB-40ED-9EBF-3AB6669EBC14@neurotica.com> <8db38714769dddb9ef9cb24cafd4c586@mac.com> Message-ID: <7B477894-28E7-43C4-A0AC-449562760A28@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 7:28 PM, roger pugh wrote: >> Well keep in mind...those chaps across the pond use much higher >> line voltage than we do. I'm not all that afraid of 110V...but >> 220V *SCARES* me. > > VOLTS BOLT, AMPS KILL as i was taught.. just blame the nanny > state here!!!!!! Yes, but UK power outlets have a whole lot of both. US power outlets carry more than enough to send you to Buddha, but it's a lot easier to survive a bite. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 03:06:43 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 04:06:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <200703152352.TAA26337@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <200703152352.TAA26337@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <FF250D12-F2DE-45C0-B79D-A76635304A95@neurotica.com> On Mar 15, 2007, at 7:49 PM, der Mouse wrote: >>> Is the 0xfeedface ascii or hex?! ;) >> It's hex. > > But as hex it gives only four bytes, and Dave (McGuire) said 8 bytes: > >> [...] most likely a v89a GIF image file, and if bytes 1-8 are >> 0xfeedface, it's a Mach-O executable from a MacOS X system. Did I? It's obviously four bytes. And I've obviously not been getting much sleep lately. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 16 03:12:15 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:12:15 -0500 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Wow, that's a fantastic idea...and such a sound business model, it's > sure to be highly profitable. After all, there's such a shortage of PC > hardware on the market, especially the overpriced "decorated" stuff. Yes, but with that much power you can be sure they'll be able to run C64/C128 emulators with ease :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 16 03:15:40 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:15:40 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > 64 bit hex does give you more than octal. We had DEADCACA, > DEADFACE, etc. Some idiot used C0CAC01A as his "magic number"). The c0cac01a one is particularly clever! My personal favorite temp variables were the natural extension ones. For example, who can forget the first time they saw a FOO BAR and GRL? ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 03:50:58 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 04:50:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <010f01c76795$251a7f30$0b01a8c0@game> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> <f4eb766f0703151114j1894b93rc189e002949af0fd@mail.gmail.com> <6E119C21-F282-4D4A-A356-37C611724A49@neurotica.com> <45F9452E.15806.507C4FF@cclist.sydex.com> <010f01c76795$251a7f30$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <D314D2F1-806C-4E9D-BA87-78EAEB0F4987@neurotica.com> On Mar 16, 2007, at 2:34 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > A friend of mine had a SUN PC card (K6 based I think). From what I > researched they seemed buggy, if the software controlling the card > crashed > so did the whole SUN system. > > http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=1255/urm9910a/ Yes, those older ones are garbage. The -II and later models are quite good, fast, and rock-stable. I've used the -II and -IIpro models quite a bit with much success. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Mar 16 04:05:27 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:05:27 +0000 Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <D37CB614-D7C0-49C8-984B-2AF53BF820BA@neurotica.com> References: <002201c76648$af3038c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45F85E36.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141413u41410501yccbfaf5c77ecba4f@mail.gmail.com> <45F86F35.5080107@yahoo.co.uk> <f4eb766f0703141521l17dd4405pf66dd304c59f305d@mail.gmail.com> <E308EF20-ED0F-4E0C-9397-30B451E7EB6D@neurotica.com> <45F90E8E.6070808@dunnington.plus.com> <D37CB614-D7C0-49C8-984B-2AF53BF820BA@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45FA5DD7.2050806@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/03/2007 17:49, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 15, 2007, at 5:14 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> I have pretty much all of the DEC microprocessor-based terminals. >>> Do you think it'd be a good idea for me to, over time, pull them out >>> and read their ROMs for archival or reconstructive purposes? >> >> I'd be happy to host images not already >> there. See particularly the "Wanted!" list in that directory :-) > > Oh my, well that saves me a lot of case-cracking! :) I will see if I > can add a few to your archive. Great! Contributions are welcome :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Mar 16 05:04:43 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sparc powerlite Message-ID: <33903.88732.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm using a sparc powerlite which is a sparc laptop and it works great in stand alone mode. However, when I use an external monitor (plugged into the back) the screen shakes significantly whenever there is disk activity. Its pretty major interference - any ideas as to what that might be - or if there is an easy cure (maybe replacing the HD?) Thanks Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 From charlesmorris at hughes.net Fri Mar 16 07:19:29 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (charlesmorris at hughes.net) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:19:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 43, Issue 43 Message-ID: <9381945.1174047569670.JavaMail.?@fh125.dia.he.tucows.com> >From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> >In article <m1HRzUm-000J1EC at p850ug1>, > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > >> It uses an odd ribbon that is probably unobtanium now > > What's so odd about the ribbon? The ribbons aren't impossible to obtain but not everyone carries them. Usual quantity is at least a box of five. I think I already posted this (check the archives), but I'll recap briefly for those interested: Last year I bought a nice 43 in a transit case. Print was very light. So I ordered a box of five ribbons ($40+ with shipping) and promptly discovered that they had been made incorrectly (ribbon loop too long, so the ribbon was too slack and would not move across the re-ink roller during carriage return). After taking one apart, having a dialogue with the design engineer at Dataprint(?) and sending them for his inspection, he agreed that they were incorrectly made and sent me a new box with the proper length loop. They worked, but were so dried out from age/storage that the print wasn't any darker!! I even tried drilling a small hole above the inkpad roller and squirting in some X- stamper (handheld stamp) ink, but that didn't help much. So I've about given up on my 43, unless someone can tell me where to get a ribbon that actually works! -Charles From charlesmorris at hughes.net Fri Mar 16 07:20:25 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (charlesmorris at hughes.net) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:20:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: teletype model 43 value (Richard) Message-ID: <8583078.1174047625656.JavaMail.?@fh125.dia.he.tucows.com> >From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> >In article <m1HRzUm-000J1EC at p850ug1>, > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > >> It uses an odd ribbon that is probably unobtanium now > > What's so odd about the ribbon? The ribbons aren't impossible to obtain but not everyone carries them. Usual quantity is at least a box of five. I think I already posted this (check the archives), but I'll recap briefly for those interested: Last year I bought a nice 43 in a transit case. Print was very light. So I ordered a box of five ribbons ($40+ with shipping) and promptly discovered that they had been made incorrectly (ribbon loop too long, so the ribbon was too slack and would not move across the re-ink roller during carriage return). After taking one apart, having a dialogue with the design engineer at Dataprint(?) and sending them for his inspection, he agreed that they were incorrectly made and sent me a new box with the proper length loop. They worked, but were so dried out from age/storage that the print wasn't any darker!! I even tried drilling a small hole above the inkpad roller and squirting in some X- stamper (handheld stamp) ink, but that didn't help much. So I've about given up on my 43, unless someone can tell me where to get a ribbon that actually works! -Charles From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 16 09:01:32 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:01:32 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070316080032.064643b8@mail> At 11:24 PM 3/15/2007, Hex Star wrote: >This way I take some bandwidth, I give back some bandwidth, I take some >files, I give them back to someone else who wants it and that at the same >time also results in many other people being able to enjoy them as well. >Just because I don't have webspace or server to immediately host the files >does not mean that they will never be released for others to download enjoy, >it just means that it won't happen immediately but that it will happen in >the future whenever they're requested. If you don't have web or file server, how do you "give back"? What's your ratio of upload to download? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 16 09:17:20 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:17:20 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <200703160458.AAA08318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> <200703160458.AAA08318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070316075231.06468a28@mail> At 10:54 PM 3/15/2007, der Mouse wrote: >> Although the UNIX purist might argue that all is bytes, in reality >> for many folks, they routinely deal with known file types created by >> a relatively few applications. > >Certainly. But that's a long way from expecting cat(1) to recognize >the headers on mpeg files and convert two header+data mpegs into >header+data+data instead of header+data+header+data. I certainly didn't expect 'cat' to do that. Anyone who did just doesn't understand Unix and there's no sense arguing about that. >If you want to make basic tools like cat(1) smart about file types, you >really need out-of-band file types, which Unix simply doesn't have. >(Such a thing could be layered atop Unix, but the result wouldn't be >very much like Unix any longer.) No, it would be *exactly* like Unix in practice - where admins and developer-esque users extend the OS to suit their own needs, including making a variation of 'cat' that concatenates in some other way (like stripping headers on the N>1 movie files) or in deciding that 'cat' isn't the most useful way to view a text file, begat 'more'. (Even GNU 'cat' has several options that don't make sense on non-text files, such as '-b' number non-blank lines, '-E' show line ends as $, '-n' number all lines, '-s' squeeze blank lines, '-T' show tabs as ^I. Blame Stallman, I don't care. :-) Metadata is very, very useful. It is certainly apropos given the recent discussions about not being able to find things in 'ftp' archives, a fine example of an overdependence on overloading metadata into filenames. It's at the heart of almost every one of our discussions about archiving floppy images, tapes, etc. It may be rudimentary on classic systems but it is omnipresent and growing on contemporary systems. (OS developers keep threatening to do away with the file system and replace it with a database, but I bet they'll still have a filename-based compatibility layer.) It has many benefits for classic computer collectors who probably use newer computers to assist with their preservation of their older computers. Maybe Mr. Hex Star can weigh in with a discussion of his organizational metadata methods for his 10 gig of classic software. - John From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 08:26:33 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:26:33 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FA9B09.40707@gmail.com> Hex Star wrote: > Well how come neither you or anyone else, no matter how politely I ask will > help me help the cause? I keep posting in hopes of getting some kind of > response...I don't know why people are just ignoring my request since > it's a > request to help the cause of preserving vintage files which is a great > cause > IMO...maybe the email is being put in peoples spam filters? > I can't speak for anyone else, but I deleted your email because there were three copies of it. That's annoying enough to be ignored. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 16 10:08:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:08:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45FAB2E6.9000600@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> 64 bit hex does give you more than octal. We had DEADCACA, DEADFACE, >> etc. Some idiot used C0CAC01A as his "magic number"). > > The c0cac01a one is particularly clever! Good grief, it's like turning a calculator upside-down to spell "boobless" all over again :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 16 10:09:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:09:24 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> Hex Star wrote: > IMO...maybe the email is being put in peoples spam filters? Yes, that's it - all n-thousand list subscribers are using exactly the same spam filter ;-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 16 10:14:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:14:30 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703152041tc25ca49m206443ba3c445cb7@mail.gmail.com> References: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> <f4eb766f0703152041tc25ca49m206443ba3c445cb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FAB456.3080800@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > When I got to use a UNIX machine and found file(1), that was _such_ an > improvement. I stil l don't like OS-enforced extensions, but I've > lived with them under VMS, OS/8, RT-11, DOS, etc. However, > extensionless OSes are the minority, I think. I like the concept of the OS just "knowing" what a file contains without having an enforced name - but at the same time (and as someone else mentioned I think), extensions are useful to human beings in order to collate data (and to avoid the occasional mishap when the OS gets things wrong - as in Dave's GIF example) What really irritates though is people using modern OSes who are still stuck in the dark ages of DOS 3-letter extensions (people suffixing HTML markup files with "htm" rather than "html" etc.) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 16 10:14:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:14:36 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <001e01c76764$b1350160$4804010a@uatempname> References: <001e01c76764$b1350160$4804010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <45FAB45C.4060407@yahoo.co.uk> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> I seem to remember "beachbabe" in an exam once. The examiners were >> rather apologetic :-) > > Isn't that heptadecimal rather than hexadecimal? That probably makes sense. Either way, it wasn't hex, which is what it was supposed to be :) (I suppose in these more politically correct times the examiners would be just as apologetic over the word itself...) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 16 09:18:42 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 16, 7 03:12:15 am" Message-ID: <200703161418.l2GEIgvK004894@floodgap.com> > > Wow, that's a fantastic idea...and such a sound business model, it's > > sure to be highly profitable. After all, there's such a shortage of PC > > hardware on the market, especially the overpriced "decorated" stuff. > > Yes, but with that much power you can be sure they'll be able to run > C64/C128 emulators with ease :-) It *does* come with an emulator and 50 games (shades of the stinky old Web.it there). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- What an incredible thing we did. -- R. J. Mical, Commodore-Amiga ----------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 16 10:20:51 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:20:51 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070316075231.06468a28@mail> References: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> <200703160458.AAA08318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20070316075231.06468a28@mail> Message-ID: <45FAB5D3.3090605@yahoo.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > Metadata is very, very useful. It is certainly apropos given the > recent discussions about not being able to find things in 'ftp' archives, > a fine example of an overdependence on overloading metadata into filenames. > It's at the heart of almost every one of our discussions about archiving > floppy images, tapes, etc. I'm seriously considering making use of the metadata facilities that some of the Linux filesystems provide [1] to be honest. I've held out until now because I don't like the idea of getting tied to one particular format - but no matter how much database and filesystem change notification (inotify etc.) is used, there are still "holes" where it's hard to keep the data and the metadata in sync if the metadata repository is layered on top of the filesystem. Anyway, it'd be personally useful not just for vintage archives but also for all these darn photos I keep taking of stuff (where a given image might fit into several logical "categories") :-) [1] Compulsory "vintage" question - what filesystem / platform was the first to allow arbitrary metadata to be included at the actual file level? cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 16 09:32:54 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:32:54 -0500 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <010f01c76795$251a7f30$0b01a8c0@game> References: <E1HRi72-0007Hq-00@xmission.xmission.com> <f4eb766f0703151114j1894b93rc189e002949af0fd@mail.gmail.com> <6E119C21-F282-4D4A-A356-37C611724A49@neurotica.com> <45F9452E.15806.507C4FF@cclist.sydex.com> <010f01c76795$251a7f30$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45FAAA96.8020304@mdrconsult.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > A friend of mine had a SUN PC card (K6 based I think). From what I > researched they seemed buggy, if the software controlling the card crashed > so did the whole SUN system. > > http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=1255/urm9910a/ The K6 version sucked pretty hard, but the SunPCi II isn't bad at all. It has its own USB and ethernet adapters, and rumor has it that the IDE chipset is functional if you put a header on the card. Somewhere I have an Sbus 486 board. I never found software for it, so I couldn't tell ya how well it works. Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 09:40:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:40:03 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45FAB456.3080800@yahoo.co.uk> References: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> <f4eb766f0703152041tc25ca49m206443ba3c445cb7@mail.gmail.com> <45FAB456.3080800@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703160740v67257778kf62c811ee584b1c0@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > I like the concept of the OS just "knowing" what a file contains without > having an enforced name - but at the same time (and as someone else mentioned > I think), extensions are useful to human beings in order to collate data (and > to avoid the occasional mishap when the OS gets things wrong - as in Dave's > GIF example) I entirely support the use of file extensions to help humans avoid ambiguity. I am opposed to the OS enforcing extensions, such as if you rename FOO.EXE to FOO.BAR, the OS refusing to execute the file arbitraily. > What really irritates though is people using modern OSes who are still stuck > in the dark ages of DOS 3-letter extensions (people suffixing HTML markup > files with "htm" rather than "html" etc.) Indeed - I don't know of a modern filesystem that has a fixed number of chars blocked out after the dot as RT-11 or OS/8 or ODS-1 or MS-DOS did. There's no reason to be stuck with such a limitation from the past (though I _do_ use a distinction between .htm and .html on my own web page - the web server doesn't care, the browsers don't care, but I have some scripts that distinguish what do to based on how _I_ have named the files. In short, my own search and 'what's new' scripts ignore pages named .htm). So it sounds like we are in agreement here (just so you don't think I'm trolling ;-) -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Mar 16 10:46:52 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:46:52 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703160740v67257778kf62c811ee584b1c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002401c767e2$52563640$4a04010a@uatempname> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I entirely support the use of file extensions to help humans avoid > ambiguity. I am opposed to the OS enforcing extensions, such as if > you rename FOO.EXE to FOO.BAR, the OS refusing to execute the file > arbitraily. I think you mentioned VMS earlier. While it would be odd to call your program FOO.COM instead of FOO.EXE, you certainly could do so. To run it you would have to type $ RUN FOO.COM rather than just $ RUN FOO but if you did, it would work. Same goes for pretty much anything I can think of off the top of my head. The compilers certainly had defaults (e.g. FORTRAN would expect a .FOR file and procduce a .OBJ file) but you could override those if you wanted to. It's been too long for me to accurately remember how RT-11 handled things, but I _think_ it too allowed the FORTRAN-66 compiler to accept FOO.BAS as input. Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/723 - Release Date: 15/03/2007 11:27 From gtoal at gtoal.com Fri Mar 16 11:15:22 2007 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:15:22 -0500 Subject: Anyone seen Fred van Kempen? Message-ID: <45fac29a.zWFydEAKSDzEb+9u%gtoal@gtoal.com> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 at 22:54:55 Gordon JC Pearce <gordon at gjcp.net> wrote: > On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 16:09 -0500, Graham Toal wrote: > > I've run out of address to try for Fred van Kempen... > > > > does anyone have an idea where he is nowadays? I know he dropped > > off the net once before, and I'm afraid he may have done so > > again. Unfortunately he has an old PDP11 disk of ours and I > > need to talk to him to decide what to do about it. Email me > > his current address please, or pass on to him that I'm trying > > to contact him please, if you're in touch with him. > > We were discussing this in the IRC channel recently. I don't know what > became of the attempts to contact him. > > > Thanks > > > > Graham Toal (Edinburgh Computer History Project) > If you're stuck for PDP11ish bits, I'm just a short drive along the M8 from you ;-) > Gordon I wouldn't bet on that :-) I'm actually based in Edinburg, Texas; and the drive is wherever Fred is in the Netherlands. But it sounds like Henk is liable to bump into him tomorrow at the Hamfest, so we could be in luck. What I may be looking for, however, is someone to read a very old RK05 that hasn't been spun up in 30 years. And someone to bring it back from .NL. (My old Dad took it over the first time on his bicycle! But he's had a small stroke since then and although he still cycles I wouldn't like to send him off on a long trip like that on his own again...) Graham From cc at corti-net.de Fri Mar 16 11:16:46 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:16:46 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703161710150.23056@linuxserv.home> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 64 bit hex does give you more than octal. We had DEADCACA, > DEADFACE, etc. Some idiot used C0CAC01A as his "magic number"). > This would be about 1972-73 on a 64-bit supercomputer. Is there a > DEADBEEF that precedes this? Um, all these examples are 32 bits only... I saw these things in Guru Meditations, too. The Amiga used DEADBEEF or DEADC0DE (or maybe both on different occasions?) Christian From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 11:45:55 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:45:55 -0700 Subject: DEC ROMs [was Re: old terminals...] Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703160945r1edd8cdfp63d96fdf379c9336@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote: > >>> Do you think it'd be a good idea for me to, over time, pull them out > >>> and read their ROMs for archival or reconstructive purposes? > >> > >> I'd be happy to host images not already > >> there. See particularly the "Wanted!" list in that directory :-) > > > > Oh my, well that saves me a lot of case-cracking! :) I will see if I > > can add a few to your archive. > > Great! Contributions are welcome :-) > Is there already a non-DEC controller firmware archive somewhere? If not, do you have any interest in adding relevant non-DEC controller firmware? For example I've had an Emulex QD21 Q-bus ESDI controller for a while that was dead. I recently pulled and read the EPROM and found it appeared to be almost completely erased. I eventually got another working QD21 and copied its EPROM into the dead one and now it works fine too. I would have been out of luck with the dead one if I couldn't find a good firmware image for it. -Glen From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 16 12:46:55 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:46:55 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45FAB5D3.3090605@yahoo.co.uk> References: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> <200703160458.AAA08318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20070316075231.06468a28@mail> <45FAB5D3.3090605@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070316111152.0641f9d8@mail> At 09:20 AM 3/16/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >[1] Compulsory "vintage" question - what filesystem / platform was the first to allow arbitrary metadata to be included at the actual file level? One milestone is the original Mac OS file system. Their files were "forked". There was a data fork and a resource fork, with the data fork holding an arbitrary bunch of bytes in the traditional sense, and the data fork was a tagged database-like table of other structured records of metadata info like the type of file, its creating application, icon image, localization, etc. Some OS files like fonts and executables put everything in the resource fork. Some third-party apps did the same. In these cases, the data fork was empty and the entire data of the file per se was in the resource fork. A more detailed discussion, including details of how more recent versions of OS X have expanded Unix tools like 'cp' and 'mv' to respect resource forks, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_fork - John From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 16 11:48:40 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:48:40 -0600 Subject: teletype model 43 value (Richard) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:20:25 -0000. <8583078.1174047625656.JavaMail.?@fh125.dia.he.tucows.com> Message-ID: <E1HSFbc-00079P-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <8583078.1174047625656.JavaMail.?@fh125.dia.he.tucows.com>, "charlesmorris at hughes.net" <charlesmorris at hughes.net> writes: > [...] After taking one apart, having a dialogue with > the design engineer at Dataprint(?) and sending them for his > inspection, he agreed that they were incorrectly made and sent me a new > box with the proper length loop. [...] It sounds like they sent you a box of ribbons that had been sitting around so long they dried out. Why didn't you try getting an exchange for a box that was effective, since you had a supplier? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 16 11:54:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:54:02 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703161710150.23056@linuxserv.home> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703161710150.23056@linuxserv.home> Message-ID: <45FA693A.12284.3C9BBC5@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Mar 2007 at 17:16, Christian Corti wrote: > Um, all these examples are 32 bits only... Yeah, they'd get repeated in a word DEADBEEF DEADBEEF--really stuck out in a dump. There aren't many 16-character hex "words" that I can think of right now, although I'm sure there are some. How about a 16- character hex "sentence"? --Chuck From erik at baigar.de Fri Mar 16 11:55:42 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:55:42 +0100 (MET) Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <45FAAA96.8020304@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GS4.4.10.10703161752340.16053-100000@deepspace.network-defense-systems.com> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Doc Shipley wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > > A friend of mine had a SUN PC card (K6 based I think). From what I > > researched they seemed buggy, if the software controlling the card crashed > > so did the whole SUN system. > > > > http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=1255/urm9910a/ > > The K6 version sucked pretty hard, but the SunPCi II isn't bad at > all. It has its own USB and ethernet adapters, and rumor has it that > the IDE chipset is functional if you put a header on the card. > > Somewhere I have an Sbus 486 board. I never found software for it, > so I couldn't tell ya how well it works. I have this, too. Using 2.6 and the SunPC2 software I have not been able to bring this one up. It always toled something about problems with kbd and later stopped loading the DOS in a very early stage. Machine was SS20, Dual Ross 150, 512M, V-SIMM, 2*9GB Erik. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Mar 16 11:53:29 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:53:29 +0000 Subject: DEC ROMs [was Re: old terminals...] In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703160945r1edd8cdfp63d96fdf379c9336@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703160945r1edd8cdfp63d96fdf379c9336@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FACB89.4030200@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/03/2007 16:45, Glen Slick wrote: > Is there already a non-DEC controller firmware archive somewhere? If > not, do you have any interest in adding relevant non-DEC controller > firmware? Depends. I don't have unlimited space, which is why a few VAX images I have aren't there, but some small Emulex (and Dilog etc) images probably wouldn't hurt. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 16 12:05:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:05:29 -0700 Subject: OT: Sun CPU card. Anything useful? In-Reply-To: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOGEMDEKAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> References: <45F9452E.15806.507C4FF@cclist.sydex.com>, <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOGEMDEKAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> Message-ID: <45FA6BE9.19523.3D434BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Mar 2007 at 2:21, G Manuel (GMC) wrote: > Do you need a Credit Card Terminal? If so I have one you can have for the > shipping cost. Let me know and I will dig it out and give you all the specs > and such. It is maybe 10 years old and is a Hypercom Unit I believe. No, we have one already, so I don't know what I'd do with one. It might be fun as a "fool around" box, but most of these are 8051-type boxes. A Z80/Z800/x86 model might be interesting however. Back around 1992, our merchant card services tried to set up on-line credit card transaction recording and asked if we wanted to participate. We got a whole bunch of documents about how the system internals operated. That's all probably changed now--and we signed an NDA at any rate. But I did write a few BASIC programs for filling in "Luhn" codes. More than a few times, a customer would hand-write or copy his credit card number and one or more digits would be unreadable. It was pretty simple to write a little program to take "?" for the unknown digits and back-compute the possibilities. It saved us a lot of trouble on a couple of occasions. Cheers, Chuck From trag at io.com Fri Mar 16 12:13:38 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:13:38 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200703152257.l2FMuoqF008956@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703152257.l2FMuoqF008956@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <a04310101c2207f589d10@[192.168.1.13]> >Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:57:40 -0500 >From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net> >I've had it with the Computerworks in Austin. Please let me rant; >nobody else will appreciate it. > > http://www.austingoodwill.org/crs/store%20locater%20pages/ComputerWorks.html > >When I moved to Austin a couple years ago, I had high hopes. > In >Austin (and San Antonio, and probably some other cities) Goodwill sends >all of their computer donations to a specialized goodwill, marketed as >"ComputerWorks"; the theory is that most goodwill's don't have skilled >employees to know what is interesting or not and how to price it; I >agree that is the case. > >The Austin Computerworks even has a vintage computer museum, so that led >me to believe the appreciated vintage computers. >Bzzt. Not so. >What makes this even more insidious is that when I go to the local run >of the mill goodwills and inquire about what they do with old computer >donations, they say they ship them to computer works to deal with them. > >So essentially it is a vintage computer magnet attached to a wood chipper. My main interest is in old Macintosh and clone machines. I mostly lost interest in the Computer Works store when it became obvious that they would no longer put anything older than a Beige G3 on the shelves. But just to rub it in, they keep a Macintosh 128K up on a top shelf in the sales area which is not for sale. Why display such a collectable, when they will never offer anything remotely similar for sale ever again? Before they changed locations they had a nice little collection of SE/30s on one of the top shelves. Before they changed policies, I picked up a PM9150, a bunch of old unobtainium NuBus cards, and similar bits and pieces. Now, phsssst. I flap my tongue and direct spittle in their general direction. Jeff Walther From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 12:14:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:14:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703161710150.23056@linuxserv.home> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703161710150.23056@linuxserv.home> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703161014k4a888bf9jd486787e56fecaff@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Christian Corti <cc at corti-net.de> wrote: > I saw these things in Guru Meditations, too. The Amiga used DEADBEEF or > DEADC0DE (or maybe both on different occasions?) I don't think there were any uses of DEADBEEF within AmigaOS directly, but if you used Enforcer, a developer's tool, you might see those crop up. Enfircer did a number of things for you, including "enforcing" the sacredness of writing to low memory by fiddling with your MMU, if your Amiga had one, and posting alert boxes when predefined conditions triggered. There were a few places where one needed to run Enforcer just to do user tasks (like twiddling the cacheing of the 8MB Zorro-II memory space - required with the GG2 Bus+ for a variety of technical reasons), but most non-developer users never ran Enforcer, thus the only occurences of DEADBEEF or DEADC0DE would be if one ran some 3rd party application that happened to use it. -ethan From trag at io.com Fri Mar 16 12:17:30 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:17:30 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200703152306.l2FN5v0J009260@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703152306.l2FN5v0J009260@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <a04310102c22080f8ff06@[192.168.1.13]> >Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:18:05 -0700 (PDT) >From: Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> > My advice is to make known to the folk in your >area (the area being as big as you're willing to >travel) that you salvage these items for donations and whatnot. That might work at stores other than Goodwill ComputerWorks. There have been times when I could *see* older machines in the back sorting area. I asked the clerks if they ever get any of 'X' and they say no. I have done this multiple times including with the manager at the store. They have no interest in fulfilling requests. For some reason they are bound and determined to only sell newer stuff even when they have a customer standing in the store and the items in the sorting area. Jeff Walther From fernande at internet1.net Fri Mar 16 13:27:30 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:27:30 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <a04310102c22080f8ff06@[192.168.1.13]> References: <200703152306.l2FN5v0J009260@dewey.classiccmp.org> <a04310102c22080f8ff06@[192.168.1.13]> Message-ID: <45FAE192.2020003@internet1.net> "No", is a very easy answer, requiring no additional thinking..... and many many people now days, don't like to think. Chad Fernandez <---feeling a bit grouchy today Michigan, USA Jeff Walther wrote: > There have been times when I could *see* older machines in the back > sorting area. I asked the clerks if they ever get any of 'X' and they > say no. I have done this multiple times including with the manager at > the store. They have no interest in fulfilling requests. For some > reason they are bound and determined to only sell newer stuff even when > they have a customer standing in the store and the items in the sorting > area. > > Jeff Walther From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 16 13:27:21 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:27:21 -0500 Subject: Credit card terms (was: Sun CPU card. Anything useful?) In-Reply-To: <45FA6BE9.19523.3D434BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOGEMDEKAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> Message-ID: <200703161731.l2GHVuhU000329@mail3.magma.ca> > > Do you need a Credit Card Terminal? If so I have one you can have for the > No, we have one already, so I don't know what I'd do with one. It > might be fun as a "fool around" box, but most of these are 8051-type > boxes. A Z80/Z800/x86 model might be interesting however. Verifone TRANZ terminals are Z80 based, and can be had for dirt-cheap. I've got a LOT of experience with them, having gone so far as to write my own development tools and a PC based simulator (info on my web site). Handy little boxes even if you don't use them for card processing - small form-factor, keypad, 16-character alphumeric VF display, and two serial ports (also an internal 300/1200 bps modem). TCL programming language is ungainly but fairly easy to use for simple tasks. I can provide lots more info, suggestions on other models etc. but it's wandering quite some distance from on-topic. Feel free to contact me off-list of you have a burning desire to fool with this stuff. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From fernande at internet1.net Fri Mar 16 13:31:03 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:31:03 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <a04310102c22080f8ff06@[192.168.1.13]> References: <200703152306.l2FN5v0J009260@dewey.classiccmp.org> <a04310102c22080f8ff06@[192.168.1.13]> Message-ID: <45FAE267.9010205@internet1.net> "No", is a very easy answer, requiring no additional thinking..... and many many people now days, don't like to think. Chad Fernandez <---feeling a bit grouchy today Michigan, USA Jeff Walther wrote: > There have been times when I could *see* older machines in the back > sorting area. I asked the clerks if they ever get any of 'X' and they > say no. I have done this multiple times including with the manager at > the store. They have no interest in fulfilling requests. For some > reason they are bound and determined to only sell newer stuff even when > they have a customer standing in the store and the items in the sorting > area. > > Jeff Walther From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 16 12:36:14 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:36:14 -0400 Subject: Metaphor Computer Systems In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070316111152.0641f9d8@mail> References: <DE0EF8C0-1D74-4DF8-A86D-FB38108F294E@neurotica.com> <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070315200554.069018a0@mail> <200703160458.AAA08318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20070316075231.06468a28@mail> <45FAB5D3.3090605@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070316111152.0641f9d8@mail> Message-ID: <45FAD58E.4050206@atarimuseum.com> While working as a computer tech around 89-90 I was asked to install 2-3 of the damnedest things I'd ever seen. They were called Metaphors, and what was so cool about them was the front panel flipped down under the screen and out slide a wireless keyboard, wireless mouse and a keypad. They were GUI based, though for some reason I remember them being green on black or perhaps white on black monochrome screens. I set them up and someone else came in to connect them to a Metaphor server - apparently they needed their own proprietary server. So needless to say, while putting some stuff away in my office, I had some of my old notebooks from way back when and while fingering through the pages I notice - Amex - Metaphor install and remembered these funky little units - very slim and high tech for their time I have to say. Anybody own an actual unit and have some photo's? Curt From trag at io.com Fri Mar 16 12:19:41 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:19:41 -0500 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200703152306.l2FN5v0J009260@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703152306.l2FN5v0J009260@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <a04310103c22081c72fd5@[192.168.1.13]> >Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:33:46 -0400 >From: "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> >I don't understand why people donate complete and working vintage machines >to places that just recycle them, why not offer them in the forums of >websites where people collect them or on freecycle or ebay? In many cases the older equipment which is donated comes from institutions or businesses which either have too many machines to handle on a one at a time basis, or just have no mechanism for giving to entities other than Goodwill or similar. Jeff Walther From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 16 13:12:42 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:12:42 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070316075231.06468a28@mail> Message-ID: <C2208E9A.8B3C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 16/3/07 14:17, "John Foust" <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote: > At 10:54 PM 3/15/2007, der Mouse wrote: >>> Although the UNIX purist might argue that all is bytes, in reality >>> for many folks, they routinely deal with known file types created by >>> a relatively few applications. >> >> Certainly. But that's a long way from expecting cat(1) to recognize >> the headers on mpeg files and convert two header+data mpegs into >> header+data+data instead of header+data+header+data. > > I certainly didn't expect 'cat' to do that. Anyone who did > just doesn't understand Unix and there's no sense arguing about that. I apologise for lacking the pre-requisite inner knowledge of unix and shall unsub forthwith. I'm obviously not clever enough for this list. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 16 13:22:28 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:22:28 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 43, Issue 43 Message-ID: <45FAE064.E0105126@rain.org> > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:19:29 +0000 (UTC) > box with the proper length loop. They worked, but were so dried out > from age/storage that the print wasn't any darker!! I even tried > drilling a small hole above the inkpad roller and squirting in some X- > stamper (handheld stamp) ink, but that didn't help much. > > So I've about given up on my 43, unless someone can tell me where to > get a ribbon that actually works! A re-inker works pretty well. Basically it is a device that applies new ink to the ribbon. From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 13:23:57 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:23:57 -0700 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200703152242.l2FMgc3w011502@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <ded268c40703151433x5c448e9dwa312e17e435ed6ca@mail.gmail.com> <200703152242.l2FMgc3w011502@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703161123l15bbdbe0x9cfd04dd1e1793f2@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > Have you found any good sources for DEC HW in Salem? I notice quite a bit > shows up on eBay that is located there. I really don't make it out of my > area, so haven't gone scouting around down there. For that matter there is > a store near me that is supposed to be good, but I've not checked out their > new location. > There used to be a place full of interesting HP and DEC stuff on Milwaukie Ave in the Portland area, some listed on eBay by "gold-snipper". I got an FPP box for an HP 1000F from him. I would have liked to look around more at all the stuff he had. He hasn't listed on eBay in a while. Maybe everything he had finally got scrapped. -Glen From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Mar 16 06:39:30 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:39:30 -0000 Subject: old terminals... Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DD5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Old terminals In the UK in the early 1970's I worked for a (then small) UK company called Newbury Labs. We made VDU's or video terminals. The early types used eight bit parallel shift registers as screen memory. The model number was 2480 i.e. 24 Rows of 80 Characters. They came in steel enclosures (painted blue!!) The screen was a 12" tube as used in mono portable TV's. We used to spend half an hour on each one fixing up the screen geometry with small magnets. The newer ones used a crude stored program system made out of TTL ie no Microprocessors. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 16 March 2007 00:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: old terminals... In article <45F8EAD6.9070607 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> writes: > Richard wrote: > > > The weirder terminals don't use a CPU at all. They use SSI/MSI TTL > > logic. > > I thought the weird ones used Delay lines and/or Core Memory. No, those aren't the weird ones. Those are the unobtainable ones. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From spc at conman.org Fri Mar 16 13:32:33 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:32:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> References: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jim Leonard once stated: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >64 bit hex does give you more than octal. We had DEADCACA, > >DEADFACE, etc. Some idiot used C0CAC01A as his "magic number"). > > The c0cac01a one is particularly clever! I've used DECAFBAD as part of a user-defined MAC address (as DECAFBAD01)---nice thing about it was---it set the correct bits in the MAC address (single station, user defined address). -spc (And it certainly stood out in arp tables ... ) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Mar 16 13:35:47 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:35:47 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C48D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Dave McGuire wrote: Yes, most definitely, I agree. The manufacturer, then, needs to keep their definition of "obsolete" to themselves. If I hear "You fool, why are you using that old thing, it's obsolete!" from its manufacturer, it almost definitely translates to "You know, I work on commission, and I'd really like to make a sale today." [snip] No, you misunderstand my position, or I have misrepresented it. The point I was trying to make was about the notion of "forced obsolescence". If the manufacturer stops selling something long before demand runs out, and doesn't release something substantially better in its place, then THAT is a problem. [snip] It simply boils down to "who says it's obsolete". If it's the manufacturer, and the user disagrees, I see that as a huge problem...especially if there is pressure involved, which there frequently is. I guarantee you the 20-something vendor rep with the power tie and the slicked-back hair who just showed up in your building is NOT standing there worried about whether or not you're on the cutting edge of technology or whether he makes your job easier. THAT is where "forced obsolescence" comes from. It is fake, a lie, and needs to be recognized and ignored when encountered. That is, unless one actually enjoys being bilked for every last dime and having an equipment turnover interval measured in months. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Billy responds: You seem to have a very harsh viewpoint of the manufacturers. I have to protest your first statement that the manufacturers should keep their definition to themselves. Why? They have as much right to stating facts as you do. Your definition of obsolete is not the only one, we both agree. So why can't other people express their definition? The other points you make seem to be in the class of the manufacturers are a bunch of crooks out to bilk their customers. (I've never heard an OEM call a customer a "fool".) How about the benefit of the doubt here - that they are business men trying to make a profit for their employees and stock holders. If a product, no matter how good, can no longer be made profitably, they do not have an obligation to continue to produce it. And if the market has shrunk, there may be no follow on product even though a few users still need it or a similar product. Forced obsolescence is NOT always a fake and a lie. There are usually very valid reasons for it that have nothing to do with bilking customers. It costs a lot of money to develop and roll out new products. But the reality is that consumers are fickle. They demand change, they demand the new. If a company sticks with its mature established products and foregoes development, it usually dies. In my field, disk drives, we would absolutely love to keep making 9GB or better yet, 100MB drives. They would be easy to build, not cost any R&D, overhead would be zip. Problem is no one would buy them. The model turnover measured in months is hell to keep up with; we would love to go slower. But all our competitors who slowed down went out of business. Most recently Maxtor and Cornice; Hitachi is bleeding money right now and may be next. We don't have the luxury of waiting until demand runs out. If demand falls below the profit level, forced obsolescence is the only way to survive. I think you are missing something unique to the electronics industry: the customers expect constant price cuts. Demand may still be strong, but at a price level where the product is not profitable. Most electronic products have a very low profit level, usually 2-5%. It's rough to stay alive. Think about it - in actual dollar amounts, TV sets sell for about the same as they did in the '50s. But cars, houses, clothes, energy, food have all been victims of inflation. Compare the current prices of computers to 5, 10, 15 years ago. People demand electronics to constantly get cheaper. So if a manufacturer wants to meet this demand, he has to find ways to cut costs. A legitimate tool often used is to come out with new models (lower cost) and make obsolete the current product that can no longer be sold profitably. You expect the lower costs - a current 320GB drive costs a fraction of the cost of the 8" floppies when they were new. And the dollar has inflated and lost buying power since then. If the consumer won't pay a profitable price for a mature product, why should a manufacturer be expected to continue to build it? >From my viewpoint, planned obsolescence is necessary to meet the outrageous demands of the consumer. This is the only marketplace I know where the buyers absolutely demand products get cheaper while having more capabilities. If you applied the price/value curve of electronics to cars, a new car would be in the $5-10 range. And everyone on this list would still be able to buy nickel glasses of beer. Billy From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 16 14:41:46 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:41:46 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <C2208E9A.8B3C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070316075231.06468a28@mail> <C2208E9A.8B3C%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070316133844.0650ece8@mail> At 12:12 PM 3/16/2007, Adrian Graham wrote: >On 16/3/07 14:17, "John Foust" <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote: >> I certainly didn't expect 'cat' to do that. Anyone who did >> just doesn't understand Unix and there's no sense arguing about that. > >I apologise for lacking the pre-requisite inner knowledge of unix and shall >unsub forthwith. I'm obviously not clever enough for this list. Please don't. I intended no offense. To me, it's merely interesting that you thought it would do that. It's not a bad thing. As I pointed out, it's reasonable to expect that the concept - concatenation - remains useful in many contexts, and it would be useful to have a variant of 'cat' that understood multiple formats and did the appropriate action. For example, tell a Unix shell user you'd like to concat a thousand text files in a certain order and there's a bunch of ways to do it easily. But give a Windows user a thousand Word documents and ask then to merge - whew, suddenly you're tossed into a word of obscure third-party shareware tools that might or might not do the job. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 13:49:58 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:49:58 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> On Mar 16, 2007, at 4:12 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Wow, that's a fantastic idea...and such a sound business model, >> it's sure to be highly profitable. After all, there's such a >> shortage of PC hardware on the market, especially the overpriced >> "decorated" stuff. > > Yes, but with that much power you can be sure they'll be able to > run C64/C128 emulators with ease :-) No doubt. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 13:50:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:50:03 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703161150r1db42014p28d47d024143fcfd@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Sean Conner <spc at conman.org> wrote: > I've used DECAFBAD as part of a user-defined MAC address (as > DECAFBAD01)---nice thing about it was---it set the correct bits in the MAC > address (single station, user defined address). Nice one. The canonical replacement MAC address for an old Sun workstation with a dead NVRAM (for those that forgot to write the vendor-assigned MAC address down before the battery died ;-) is 8 20 0 c0 ff ee (the first half being one of Sun's reserved 24-bit prefixes). I suppose one could use a stuttered "cccoffee" as one of thse 32-bit replacements for deadbeef, but it's tough to come up with a 2-letter prefix when your alphabet is a-f plus i and o (though with a stretch, you could get tricky with 2 and 5 as S and Z). -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 16 13:59:55 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200703161903.PAA12629@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've used DECAFBAD as part of a user-defined MAC address (as > DECAFBAD01) de:ca:fb:ad:01 is one octet short of being a MAC. :) de:ca:ff:c0:ff:ee? Pity you can't use 21:35:00:c0:ff:ee (the first three octets being "not de:ca:ff". Hm, 02:13:50:c0:ff:ee?) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 16 14:14:37 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:14:37 -0400 Subject: Early 3.5" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C48D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C48D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45FAEC9D.9080204@atarimuseum.com> Anyone have the following available for sale/trade: Sony OA-D30 V 3.5" Microfloppy drive Shugart SA 300 3.5" Microfloppy drive Tandon TM 35-2 and 35-4 3.5" Microfloppy drives please email me off-list, thank you. Curt From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 14:24:38 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:24:38 -0400 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <a04310103c22081c72fd5@[192.168.1.13]> References: <200703152306.l2FN5v0J009260@dewey.classiccmp.org> <a04310103c22081c72fd5@[192.168.1.13]> Message-ID: <F438E0E2-86E8-4544-ADB5-1454B1FA5976@neurotica.com> On Mar 16, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: >> I don't understand why people donate complete and working vintage >> machines >> to places that just recycle them, why not offer them in the forums of >> websites where people collect them or on freecycle or ebay? > > In many cases the older equipment which is donated comes from > institutions or businesses which either have too many machines to > handle on a one at a time basis, or just have no mechanism for > giving to entities other than Goodwill or similar. Now you see, that's just plain silly. Yes I know it's VERY COMMON, but it's still silly. This idea of a company not being able to do anything unless it's described in detail in the "procedures manual" that they got from "corporate" is nothing more than an excuse to avoid thinking and taking action. There is no reason in the world why someone can't just take personal responsibility for something and do a little googling and send some "come and get it off of this loading dock by Friday or it hits the dumpster" messages out to some random mailing lists. Damn suits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 14:26:08 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:26:08 -0400 Subject: DEC ROMs [was Re: old terminals...] In-Reply-To: <45FACB89.4030200@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703160945r1edd8cdfp63d96fdf379c9336@mail.gmail.com> <45FACB89.4030200@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <C5A6454C-0FED-4D9C-937E-FE1052787817@neurotica.com> On Mar 16, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Is there already a non-DEC controller firmware archive somewhere? If >> not, do you have any interest in adding relevant non-DEC controller >> firmware? > > Depends. I don't have unlimited space, which is why a few VAX > images I have aren't there, but some small Emulex (and Dilog etc) > images probably wouldn't hurt. I DO have [effectively] unlimited space, and am more than willing to host this stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 16 14:31:06 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <740397.26368.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On Mar 16, 2007, at 4:12 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Wow, that's a fantastic idea...and such a sound > business model, > >> it's sure to be highly profitable. After all, > there's such a > >> shortage of PC hardware on the market, especially > the overpriced > >> "decorated" stuff. > > > > Yes, but with that much power you can be sure > they'll be able to > > run C64/C128 emulators with ease :-) > > No doubt. ;) OOH OOH maybe we can write them and they'll include the em's with the box. And loads and loads of early Commie games too! Yeah. And maybe we can even get them to throw in 900 or 1,000 MAME roms too boot LOL LOL LOL. Oh and no pun intended :) I had quickly glanced at the included page. The thing looked like an oversized hanky dispenser to me. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 16 14:38:48 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:38:48 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> Yes sirree... nothing like throwing an overpriced $2,500-$4,000 gaming system at tackling the emulation of a C64.... especially since for $20 you could buy a C64 DTV joystick ;-) Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 16, 2007, at 4:12 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> Wow, that's a fantastic idea...and such a sound business model, >>> it's sure to be highly profitable. After all, there's such a >>> shortage of PC hardware on the market, especially the overpriced >>> "decorated" stuff. >> >> Yes, but with that much power you can be sure they'll be able to run >> C64/C128 emulators with ease :-) > > No doubt. ;) > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 15:03:43 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:03:43 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Curt @ Atari Museum <curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote: > Yes sirree... nothing like throwing an overpriced $2,500-$4,000 gaming > system at tackling the emulation of a C64.... especially since for $20 > you could buy a C64 DTV joystick ;-) Or for $13 you could buy a DTV wrapped up in a steering wheel package playing "Hummer". -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 15:10:43 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:10:43 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <A3753F86-267A-4C1C-874F-D83292CA3DC3@neurotica.com> On Mar 16, 2007, at 4:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Yes sirree... nothing like throwing an overpriced $2,500-$4,000 >> gaming >> system at tackling the emulation of a C64.... especially since for >> $20 >> you could buy a C64 DTV joystick ;-) > > Or for $13 you could buy a DTV wrapped up in a steering wheel package > playing "Hummer". Or you can pick up a real C64 for five bucks at a yard sale. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 15:19:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:19:03 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <A3753F86-267A-4C1C-874F-D83292CA3DC3@neurotica.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> <A3753F86-267A-4C1C-874F-D83292CA3DC3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703161319i6271d2b8vb1bda98cfb690c07@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > Or you can pick up a real C64 for five bucks at a yard sale. I haven't been seeing C-64s at yard sales lately, mostly just pre-G3 Macs and sub-500MHz Pentia. -ethan From spc at conman.org Fri Mar 16 15:22:24 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:22:24 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <200703161903.PAA12629@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> <200703161903.PAA12629@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070316202224.GB18806@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > I've used DECAFBAD as part of a user-defined MAC address (as > > DECAFBAD01) > > de:ca:fb:ad:01 is one octet short of being a MAC. :) Oops. Miscounted. It was DE:CA:FB:AD:00:01 (I just checked). > de:ca:ff:c0:ff:ee? Pity you can't use 21:35:00:c0:ff:ee (the first > three octets being "not de:ca:ff". Hm, 02:13:50:c0:ff:ee?) Hah! -spc (Guess I could have done DECAFBADCAFE ... 8-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 16 16:23:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:23:46 -0500 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FB0AE2.4020203@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/16/07, Curt @ Atari Museum <curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote: >> Yes sirree... nothing like throwing an overpriced $2,500-$4,000 gaming >> system at tackling the emulation of a C64.... especially since for $20 >> you could buy a C64 DTV joystick ;-) > > Or for $13 you could buy a DTV wrapped up in a steering wheel package > playing "Hummer". Or for free you could have a real C64... (actually, the "Amigarised" shaped cases are easy to find; it seems a bit more tricky - at least in the UK - to get a "proper shape" C64 these days) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 15:27:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:27:19 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703161319i6271d2b8vb1bda98cfb690c07@mail.gmail.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> <A3753F86-267A-4C1C-874F-D83292CA3DC3@neurotica.com> <f4eb766f0703161319i6271d2b8vb1bda98cfb690c07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0942B186-0B88-4BAA-AE50-778DFAFBFA0B@neurotica.com> On Mar 16, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Or you can pick up a real C64 for five bucks at a yard sale. > > I haven't been seeing C-64s at yard sales lately, mostly just pre-G3 > Macs and sub-500MHz Pentia. I saw a couple last year. Admittedly they are becoming less common, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 16 16:30:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:30:59 -0500 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <A3753F86-267A-4C1C-874F-D83292CA3DC3@neurotica.com> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> <A3753F86-267A-4C1C-874F-D83292CA3DC3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45FB0C93.1010208@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 16, 2007, at 4:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Yes sirree... nothing like throwing an overpriced $2,500-$4,000 gaming >>> system at tackling the emulation of a C64.... especially since for $20 >>> you could buy a C64 DTV joystick ;-) >> >> Or for $13 you could buy a DTV wrapped up in a steering wheel package >> playing "Hummer". > > Or you can pick up a real C64 for five bucks at a yard sale. Grr, stole my thunder, you did ;) *retracts previous post* Actually, I've not seen that many C64s actually *around*, but when I needed one in order to get an SX64 going again [1] it was a case of about 5 mins of asking around (on places like freecycle), and I had more offers than I knew what to do with. There certainly still seemed to be healthy numbers lurking in attics etc. [1] The "winner" was a machine with - IIRC - a German keyboard. It didn't work and the PSU had gone missing, so in terms of a system that was scavenged for parts it was almost perfect) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 16 15:54:37 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hex Star wrote: > > IMO...maybe the email is being put in peoples spam filters? > > Yes, that's it - all n-thousand list subscribers are using exactly the same > spam filter ;-) My spam filter deletes all duplicates, and their original. doesn't everybody's? From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Mar 16 16:11:36 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:11:36 +0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> <20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1174079496.22113.36.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Fri, 2007-03-16 at 13:54 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Hex Star wrote: > > > IMO...maybe the email is being put in peoples spam filters? > > > > Yes, that's it - all n-thousand list subscribers are using exactly the same > > spam filter ;-) > > My spam filter deletes all duplicates, and their original. > doesn't everybody's? In case cctech subscribers are confused, the duplicate messages were culled (that is, three of the recent identical batch). Hexstar: There is no point in complaining that an individual isn't helping you in your quest. If anyone has a file of interest, they are quite capable of responding to a request from a list member, and probably in a better position to do so if they know what the file is about. I suppose the more copies there are around, the more likely something is to survive, but asking for every piece of software written prior to 1997 (or whatever "classic software archives" means) seems a bit over-ambitious. I suggest you restrict yourself to some specific area, one in which you have, or can acquire, some expertise. You might get some response then. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Mar 16 16:22:09 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:22:09 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F95790.20765.54F9304@cclist.sydex.com> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> <A3753F86-267A-4C1C-874F-D83292CA3DC3@neurotica.com> <45FB0C93.1010208@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00e801c76811$28000090$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Commodore's new PCs > Actually, I've not seen that many C64s actually *around*, but when I needed > one in order to get an SX64 going again [1] it was a case of about 5 mins of > asking around (on places like freecycle), and I had more offers than I knew > what to do with. There certainly still seemed to be healthy numbers lurking in > attics etc. > > [1] The "winner" was a machine with - IIRC - a German keyboard. It didn't work > and the PSU had gone missing, so in terms of a system that was scavenged for > parts it was almost perfect) > There are quite a few around, they are just not advertised much. Last year I posted on freecycle looking for old 68K Macs and Amigas and snagged 2x C64's, 2x 1541 drives, 1802 monitor, 2 Commodore printers, a modem, and misc games all working from the same place. Some people I have seen on the net have dozens of C64s for some reason. Anything made in that quantity will be around this earth for a while. Most people don't want a real C64 with a 1541 drive that needs 5.25" DD floppies that take a minute to load, they want an emulator that plays ROMs they download off the net instantly (or maybe a real C64 with a 1000 in 1 Cartridge). TZ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Mar 16 16:27:16 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:27:16 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> <20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net> <1174079496.22113.36.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <00f101c76811$df417450$0b01a8c0@game> If anybody here wants to start a website or FTP for Mac 68K drivers and PDF Manuals I would be willing to fill it up with what is out on the net and what I have that is not. It probably would not consume that much bandwidth considering most of the stuff is just a floppy or two. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 16:27:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:27:10 -0400 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <00e801c76811$28000090$0b01a8c0@game> References: <01C76722.5CEE0440@MSE_D03> <45F9BC1B.4080008@atarimuseum.com> <570FBCD2-688A-4B0B-A6F0-DBA6073C38C4@neurotica.com> <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <4C8FA3F2-21C2-4F20-B0F7-3FECA5D6A254@neurotica.com> <45FAF248.1010107@atarimuseum.com> <f4eb766f0703161303g376ea7ecm822f9fbb03e71a21@mail.gmail.com> <A3753F86-267A-4C1C-874F-D83292CA3DC3@neurotica.com> <45FB0C93.1010208@yahoo.co.uk> <00e801c76811$28000090$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703161427g71dd1b04va69cf412be37abca@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > There are quite a few around, they are just not advertised much. I'd agree with that. Those that haven't made it to the landfill are sitting in closets around the world, especially in Europe. > Anything made in that quantity will be around this earth for a while. More than 17,000,000? Assuredly. > Most people don't want a real C64 with a 1541 drive that needs 5.25" DD > floppies that take a minute to load, they want an emulator that plays ROMs > they download off the net instantly (or maybe a real C64 with a 1000 in 1 > Cartridge). Heh... personally, I want to take one of my DTV boards and hack it into something like a 1581 so that all you have to do is pull a 3.5" floppy out of your backpack, plug in a keyboard and hook it up to a monitor. If I could find an inexpensive PlayStation-1 LCD monitor, I'd consider a C-64 laptop, though. I wouldn't be the first to do it, but I'd do it all the same. I have lots of fond memories programming the C-64, including my first 3 jobs. I probably spend more emulation time in VICE than any other environment to this day. -ethan From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Fri Mar 16 16:47:42 2007 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:47:42 +0100 Subject: Anyone seen Fred van Kempen? References: <45f9b605.XpHRqzEyvUuSm0t6%gtoal@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <001b01c76814$bc95ff90$0103a8c0@xp1800> I forwarded the mail to a friend of Fred. When I know something I let you know. Gr. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Toal" <gtoal at gtoal.com> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Cc: <gtoal at gtoal.com> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:09 PM Subject: Anyone seen Fred van Kempen? > I've run out of address to try for Fred van Kempen... > > does anyone have an idea where he is nowadays? I know he dropped > off the net once before, and I'm afraid he may have done so > again. Unfortunately he has an old PDP11 disk of ours and I > need to talk to him to decide what to do about it. Email me > his current address please, or pass on to him that I'm trying > to contact him please, if you're in touch with him. > > Thanks > > Graham Toal (Edinburgh Computer History Project) > <gtoal at gtoal.com> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/723 - Release Date: 15-3-2007 > 11:27 > > From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 16 16:48:51 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:48:51 -0700 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill References: <ded268c40703151433x5c448e9dwa312e17e435ed6ca@mail.gmail.com><200703152242.l2FMgc3w011502@onyx.spiritone.com> <1e1fc3e90703161123l15bbdbe0x9cfd04dd1e1793f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <070601c76814$e339f750$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com> > There used to be a place full of interesting HP and DEC stuff on > Milwaukie Ave in the Portland area, some listed on eBay by > "gold-snipper". I got an FPP box for an HP 1000F from him. I would > have liked to look around more at all the stuff he had. He hasn't > listed on eBay in a while. Maybe everything he had finally got > scrapped. I got an 8/E with lots of cool peripherals from him a while back. And some nice RK05 drives last year. He said he was moving his warehouse, and I haven't seen the new place yet. I don't see any eBay activity since September, though. Vince From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 16 17:06:32 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:06:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703160740v67257778kf62c811ee584b1c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070316220633.21439.qmail@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: Indeed - I don't know of a modern filesystem that has a fixed number of chars blocked out after the dot as RT-11 or OS/8 or ODS-1 or MS-DOS did. There's no reason to be stuck with such a limitation from the past (though I _do_ use a distinction between .htm and .html on my own web page - the web server doesn't care, the browsers don't care, but I have some scripts that distinguish what do to based on how _I_ have named the files. In short, my own search and 'what's new' scripts ignore pages named .htm). So it sounds like we are in agreement here (just so you don't think I'm trolling ;-) -ethan Ahhh, I see. I wondered why there are web pages (at Sega's US website) named .jhtml and .xhtml etc. I thought they were special types of html pages, but I guess they can be named anything aslong as they have "htm" or "html" afterwards, or as long as the HTML define tags are included in the page? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. To try and keep this on topic, is it possible to surf the 'net on say a VAX? I don't expect it to run Flash etc. but basic text and images? Or would memory be a problem? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 16 17:30:10 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oregon sources (was: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill) In-Reply-To: <070601c76814$e339f750$6600a8c0@vrsxp> from "Vincent Slyngstad" at Mar 16, 2007 02:48:51 PM Message-ID: <200703162230.l2GMUAwa021277@onyx.spiritone.com> > I got an 8/E with lots of cool peripherals from him a while back. > And some nice RK05 drives last year. > > He said he was moving his warehouse, and I haven't seen the new > place yet. > > I don't see any eBay activity since September, though. > > Vince > Vince or Paxton, Have either of you by any chance checked out Computer Drive Connection in Cornelius? I learned of it recently, but have no idea what they're like. The website makes them sound at least slightly interesting, and they've apparently been around since '94. http://www.computerdriveconnection.com/ I actually have to be right near there tomorrow, but doubt I'll have the opportunity to check them out, and I definitely won't be dressed for junking. On the other side of 26, on Cornelius Pass Road, is "Surplus Gizmos" (they had been near Enu). http://surplusgizmos.com/ Seems like a replacement for Wacky Willy's (which is now totally gone). I've only been in the old Gizmos store once, but based on that, and the fact the new store is larger, I suspect this would be well worth checking out. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 17:43:45 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:43:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <20070316220633.21439.qmail@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <f4eb766f0703160740v67257778kf62c811ee584b1c0@mail.gmail.com> <20070316220633.21439.qmail@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703161543u471d1ffdk26e0a622435e0f94@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > (though I _do_ use a distinction between .htm and .html on my own > web page - the web server doesn't care, the browsers don't care, but I > have some scripts that distinguish what do to based on how _I_ have > named the files. In short, my own search and 'what's new' scripts > ignore pages named .htm). > Ahhh, I see. > > I wondered why there are web pages (at Sega's US website) named .jhtml and .xhtml etc. I thought they were special types of html pages, but I guess they can be named anything aslong as they have "htm" or "html" afterwards, or as long as the HTML define tags are included in the page? Umm... it's not about content - standard web _servers_ look at the extension and issue a line of text as part of the response to a query from a web browser that defines the "MIME Type". Their web server knows what MIME type to issue with .xhtml and .jhtml files. In my case, .htm and .html are Text/HTML files and are so described. It only starts to matter when you want to serve a file that's not of a known type (like when I've put Z-Machine files up for download). AFAIK, .xhtml and .jhtml are a known file type. > PS. To try and keep this on topic, is it possible to surf the 'net on say a VAX? I don't expect it to run Flash etc. but basic text and images? Or would memory be a problem? When you say "VAX", I presume you mean under VMS. Dunno about text _and_ images, but Lynx should be easy to get working under VMS (it should be _trivial_ to get working under 4BSD or Ultrix). I don't have any experience with programming any workstation environments under VMS - text only for me, whether by serial cable and VT100 or by network port (DECnet, etc). It's not impossible to do it, even if your VAX has less than 16meg of physical memory (a VAXstation 2000, say), but I don't know if anyone has done it yet. There is a graphical browser for the C-64, IIRC. Surely one could match that level of performance with a VS2000. ;-) -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Mar 16 17:48:15 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: websurfing on a VAX In-Reply-To: <20070316220633.21439.qmail@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <20070316220633.21439.qmail@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703161546470.10503@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Andrew Burton wrote: > PS. To try and keep this on topic, is it possible to surf the 'net on > say a VAX? I don't expect it to run Flash etc. but basic text and > images? Or would memory be a problem? I used to use Mosaic on a VAXstation 3100. I think there was also a version of Netscape for the VAX, but about that time those workstations were replaced with Suns. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 17:50:49 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:50:49 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703161543u471d1ffdk26e0a622435e0f94@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703160740v67257778kf62c811ee584b1c0@mail.gmail.com> <20070316220633.21439.qmail@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703161543u471d1ffdk26e0a622435e0f94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8A26ACDF-715F-403F-8101-02CD9C042EB7@neurotica.com> On Mar 16, 2007, at 6:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> PS. To try and keep this on topic, is it possible to surf the 'net >> on say a VAX? I don't expect it to run Flash etc. but basic text >> and images? Or would memory be a problem? > > When you say "VAX", I presume you mean under VMS. Dunno about text > _and_ images, but Lynx should be easy to get working under VMS (it > should be _trivial_ to get working under 4BSD or Ultrix). I don't > have any experience with programming any workstation environments > under VMS - text only for me, whether by serial cable and VT100 or by > network port (DECnet, etc). It's not impossible to do it, even if > your VAX has less than 16meg of physical memory (a VAXstation 2000, > say), but I don't know if anyone has done it yet. > > There is a graphical browser for the C-64, IIRC. Surely one could > match that level of performance with a VS2000. ;-) It's been a while, but I seem to recall the Netscape browser running quite nicely under VMS. Also (to the original poster) keep in mind that VAX is a much more memory-efficient architecture overall...16MB is a respectable amount of memory in a VAX. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 16 18:07:42 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: websurfing on a VAX In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703161546470.10503@helios.cs.csubak.edu> from "David Griffith" at Mar 16, 2007 03:48:15 PM Message-ID: <200703162307.l2GN7gDk022141@onyx.spiritone.com> > On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > PS. To try and keep this on topic, is it possible to surf the 'net on > > say a VAX? I don't expect it to run Flash etc. but basic text and > > images? Or would memory be a problem? > > I used to use Mosaic on a VAXstation 3100. I think there was also a > version of Netscape for the VAX, but about that time those workstations > were replaced with Suns. I don't typically "surf" from VMS. While I do have Netscape 3.03, the latest Mozilla port, some version of Mosaic, and Lynx on my XP1000, I really only use Lynx, and then for downloading files. I'm actually quite surprised how well Lynx handles some sites. I think Netscape 3.03 might also run on the VAX, but I don't remember. Forget about Mozilla, it won't run on anything less than an XP1000. OTOH, while I don't really use VMS to access the web, I do use it to serve up various MySQL/PHP, PHP, and Perl based web apps, as well as some VMS specific ones. Zane From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 16 18:30:16 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:30:16 -0700 Subject: Oregon sources (was: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill) References: <200703162230.l2GMUAwa021277@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <074001c76823$0e372eb0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> > Vince or Paxton, > Have either of you by any chance checked out Computer Drive Connection in > Cornelius? I learned of it recently, but have no idea what they're like. > The website makes them sound at least slightly interesting, and they've > apparently been around since '94. > http://www.computerdriveconnection.com/ > > I actually have to be right near there tomorrow, but doubt I'll have the > opportunity to check them out, and I definitely won't be dressed for > junking. Nope, but it is probably worth a shot. > On the other side of 26, on Cornelius Pass Road, is "Surplus Gizmos" (they > had been near Enu). http://surplusgizmos.com/ Seems like a replacement > for > Wacky Willy's (which is now totally gone). I've only been in the old > Gizmos > store once, but based on that, and the fact the new store is larger, I > suspect this would be well worth checking out. I have been there many times, and it is worth a look. They've added a section with loose parts (switches, connectors, ICs, etc.), and the $0.50 junk bins are a wonder if you don't mind a little desoldering. Of course, they still have the assortment of larger objects arrayed around the perimeter, and a wonderful selection of old test equipment. Some of the stuff looks to be from server farms that got taken apart, and not a little of it looks to be from manufacturing outfits. (There's an old wafer sorter there, for instance.) (About halfway back, watch for the signs that say "employees only". They keep moving them around, and more than once I've found myself on the wrong side of them.) Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 16 18:21:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:21:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DD5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Mar 16, 7 11:39:30 am Message-ID: <m1HSLjv-000J15C@p850ug1> > > Old terminals > > In the UK in the early 1970's I worked for a (then small) UK > company called Newbury Labs. FWIW, Newbury terminals were common at Cambridge University in the 1980s (but were being replaced by BBC micros running a terminal emoulator). I think they were around at other UK universities too. > We made VDU's or video terminals. The early types used eight bit > parallel shift registers as screen memory. > The model number was 2480 i.e. 24 Rows of 80 Characters. They came in > steel enclosures (painted blue!!) > The screen was a 12" tube as used in mono portable TV's. When I needed a replacement CRT for a Volker-Craig terminal (it has an APL cahracter set, which is why I was repairing it), the only way to get one was to buy a cheap protable TV and remove the CRT from it. Nobody stocked the CRT on its own. > We used to spend half an hour on each one fixing up the screen geometry > with small magnets. > > The newer ones used a crude stored program system made out of TTL ie no > Microprocessors. I have a Newbury terminal somwehre. I forget the model, but it's a later one with a separate keyboard linked up by a wide ribbon cable (I think the connections are just the row and column lines of a switch matrix, there's not much, if any, electronics in the keyboard). I've not been inside it for 20 years, but I thought there was a microproceossor in there. I do rememeber a board of TTL incluing some '181 ALUs, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 16 18:26:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:26:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45FAB45C.4060407@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 16, 7 10:14:36 am Message-ID: <m1HSLos-000J1EC@p850ug1> > > arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I seem to remember "beachbabe" in an exam once. The examiners were > >> rather apologetic :-) > > > > Isn't that heptadecimal rather than hexadecimal? > > That probably makes sense. Either way, it wasn't hex, which is what it was > supposed to be :) Surely heptadecimal (base 17, I assume) would use 0-9 and 'a'-'g'. To get 'h', you'd neend octadecimal, or whatever you want to call base 18 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 16 18:06:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:06:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: teletype model 43 value In-Reply-To: <E1HS0WP-0002ra-00@xmission.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Mar 15, 7 06:42:17 pm Message-ID: <m1HSLVc-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > > In article <m1HRzUm-000J1EC at p850ug1>, > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > It uses an odd ribbon that is probably unobtanium now > > What's so odd about the ribbon? The ribbon cartridge is fitted on the right-hand side plate of the printer chassis, it's held down by a magnet on the chassis that attracts a plate on the cartrdige. There's a loop of ribbon that runs from the cartidge round rollers on the chassis and on the carriage (and of course the ribbron runs across the front of the printhead itself). Some of those rollers have 1-way clutches in them -- when the carriaye is moving left-right (printing direction), the ribbon is held fixed relative to the chassis by the roollers on the chassis being locked by their clutches, but the ones of hte carriage freewheeling. But when the carriage moves right-left, the ribbon is held fixed relative ot the carriage, this time the rollers on the chassis freewheel and the ones o nthe carriage are locked, so the ribbon gets wound on a bit. That is the only ribbon feed mechanism in the machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 16 18:10:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:10:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK charity shops..Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <45F9F70C.8050907@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 15, 7 08:46:52 pm Message-ID: <m1HSLZM-000J11C@p850ug1> > > roger pugh wrote: > > British charity shops wont take any donation of mains powered > > appliances. This is due to the cost of safety testing needed before > > resale. > > Has that changed in the last six months? Six months ago it depended entirely > on the place - the Sally Army shop in central Cambridge would PAT-test items > for instance, but my nearer one in one of the outlying villages wouldn't. I don't think the rules have changed (certainly I've bought mains powered stuff in charity shops in the last couple of months). It's just that most such shops don't have anyone who can do the PAT testing. Mind you, I question the value of such texting. I've seen things that have pased a PAT test that _no way_ would I connect to the mains unless I'd done some work on them first. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 16 19:49:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:49:26 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com><200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com><5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com><45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk><20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net><1174079496.22113.36.camel@ljw.me.uk> <00f101c76811$df417450$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <007601c7682e$1d5cbdf0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Teo wrote... > If anybody here wants to start a website or FTP for Mac 68K drivers and > PDF > Manuals I would be willing to fill it up with what is out on the net and > what I have that is not. It probably would not consume that much bandwidth > considering most of the stuff is just a floppy or two. And of course, I'd be willing to provide the disk space & bandwidth for such an endeavor. Jay From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 16 20:14:15 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:14:15 -0400 Subject: websurfing on a VAX In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703161546470.10503@helios.cs.csubak.edu> References: <20070316220633.21439.qmail@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703161546470.10503@helios.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <45FB40E7.705@atarimuseum.com> Before all of that, we were putting Linx (Lynx?) on the Vaxes for users to access the web --- aaaah, pure text web surfing, those were the days ;-) Curt David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Andrew Burton wrote: > > >> PS. To try and keep this on topic, is it possible to surf the 'net on >> say a VAX? I don't expect it to run Flash etc. but basic text and >> images? Or would memory be a problem? >> > > I used to use Mosaic on a VAXstation 3100. I think there was also a > version of Netscape for the VAX, but about that time those workstations > were replaced with Suns. > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 16 23:26:03 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:26:03 -0700 Subject: EISA problems In-Reply-To: <00da01c7678b$c6a51090$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <BAY138-F11FE2885067D0AC0E005D8A3700@phx.gbl> >From: "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> ---snip--- > >Has my Dallas chips battery finally died on me (I had to replace the other >Dallas RTC chip when I purchased the board last year, it still keeps time >fine)? Did my installing of the ATI damage the Dallas chip by chance? Did I >get a defective video card? > >I need to figure out what's up before I buy another EISA backup chip $15 >and wreck it, and decide what to do about the ATI from ebay. > >Any ideas? > Hi Check the connector socket on your motherboard with a magnifying glass. You may have bent a pin and shorted two lines. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Interest Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new payment http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18466&moid=7581 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 16 23:44:50 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:44:50 -0700 Subject: ModComp In-Reply-To: <BAY138-F1A3909D700DB53F6B7BD4A3710@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <BAY138-F135DB29B00CABDC57C06E2A3700@phx.gbl> Hi What kind of stories go with ModComp machines? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Interest Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new payment http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18466&moid=7581 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Mar 17 00:04:07 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: websurfing on a VAX In-Reply-To: <45FB40E7.705@atarimuseum.com> References: <20070316220633.21439.qmail@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703161546470.10503@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <45FB40E7.705@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703162203270.4533@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > >> PS. To try and keep this on topic, is it possible to surf the 'net on > >> say a VAX? I don't expect it to run Flash etc. but basic text and > >> images? Or would memory be a problem? > >> > > > > I used to use Mosaic on a VAXstation 3100. I think there was also a > > version of Netscape for the VAX, but about that time those workstations > > were replaced with Suns. > > > Before all of that, we were putting Linx (Lynx?) on the Vaxes for users > to access the web --- aaaah, pure text web surfing, those were the days ;-) I think I still might have access to a VAX on which I used Lynx way back when. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 17 00:35:38 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:35:38 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> <20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net> <1174079496.22113.36.camel@ljw.me.uk> <00f101c76811$df417450$0b01a8c0@game> <007601c7682e$1d5cbdf0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002601c76856$18a6a8c0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:49 PM Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? > Teo wrote... > > If anybody here wants to start a website or FTP for Mac 68K drivers and > > PDF > > Manuals I would be willing to fill it up with what is out on the net and > > what I have that is not. It probably would not consume that much bandwidth > > considering most of the stuff is just a floppy or two. > > And of course, I'd be willing to provide the disk space & bandwidth for such > an endeavor. > > Jay > > How much bandwidth and space would be accessible without causing you too much pain? I can't see 68K related driver disks and files taking up too much space, or getting heavily leached. What do you think about PDFs of copyrighted manuals (even if the company went under or still exists but has dumped support years ago)? From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Mar 16 13:37:59 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:37:59 +0000 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200703152010.l2FKATS6007258@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703152010.l2FKATS6007258@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1174070279.7579.0.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 13:10 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Civilized behavior doesn't even come close. The best way to describe the > "patrons" would be animals. If all that happens is you get pushed out of I have never, in 30-odd years of living on a farm, seen animals behave like that, and it pisses me off immensely when people describe people behaving in the way that only humans do as "like animals". Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Mar 16 16:41:05 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:41:05 +0000 Subject: Anyone seen Fred van Kempen? In-Reply-To: <45fac29a.zWFydEAKSDzEb+9u%gtoal@gtoal.com> References: <45fac29a.zWFydEAKSDzEb+9u%gtoal@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <1174081265.7579.7.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-03-16 at 11:15 -0500, Graham Toal wrote: > > If you're stuck for PDP11ish bits, I'm just a short drive along the M8 from you ;-) > > > Gordon > > I wouldn't bet on that :-) I'm actually based in Edinburg, Texas; and the > drive is wherever Fred is in the Netherlands. But it sounds like Henk is liable > to bump into him tomorrow at the Hamfest, so we could be in luck. Heh. Well, there's a thing. Aren't you involved with the Edinburgh Computer History Project that's in Edinburgh Uni, too? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Mar 16 17:38:56 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:38:56 +0000 Subject: DEC ROMs [was Re: old terminals...] In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703160945r1edd8cdfp63d96fdf379c9336@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703160945r1edd8cdfp63d96fdf379c9336@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1174084736.7579.26.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-03-16 at 09:45 -0700, Glen Slick wrote: > Is there already a non-DEC controller firmware archive somewhere? If > not, do you have any interest in adding relevant non-DEC controller > firmware? I have a Baydel multi-function board that has lost one of its EPROMs (just reads back as all 0xFF). I contacted Baydel, and got a polite email from the chap that designed the board originally saying he'd just slung his prototype and design docs, thinking "oh well, can't hold onto stuff forever". Should have got there quicker, as is so often the case. I won't go into the sorry tale of the K-reg Citro?n AX at the local scrapyard, MOT fail because of some simple simple things, pristine condition in and out (and better than my own AX). When I got to the yard, it was shut 'cos the guy was out posting off the Certificate of Destruction... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 17 03:25:27 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:25:27 +0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <002601c76856$18a6a8c0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> <20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net> <1174079496.22113.36.camel@ljw.me.uk> <00f101c76811$df417450$0b01a8c0@game> <007601c7682e$1d5cbdf0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <002601c76856$18a6a8c0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <1174119927.7579.35.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-03-17 at 01:35 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > How much bandwidth and space would be accessible without causing you too > much pain? I can't see 68K related driver disks and files taking up too much > space, or getting heavily leached. What do you think about PDFs of > copyrighted manuals (even if the company went under or still exists but has > dumped support years ago)? Doesn't Jay run an ISP, and therefore have obscene amounts of bandwidth? And of course, disks are cheap these days (300 quid for a 1U 1 terabyte NAS...) Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 17 03:30:27 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:30:27 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> References: <530854.507.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> , <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1174120227.7579.39.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 17:01 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > When someone asks me "why use hex and not octal?", my response > generally is "Because you can spell really stupid things with hex". Anyone in Glasgow within earshot of a wifi AP with the ESSID "glasgownet-testing" should try repeating "0badc0ffee" as their WEP key. I have a *huge* radio footprint once you figure out where I am ;-) Gordon From northerndancer2000 at mac.com Fri Mar 16 14:56:28 2007 From: northerndancer2000 at mac.com (NorthernDancer) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:56:28 -0400 Subject: Outbound Laptop Message-ID: <C9D4AA86-5D9C-4286-9C9D-B8C563AA9A39@mac.com> Hi: I got your name when I googled Outbound laptop and for sale. Did you ever sell your Outbound? If you did, could you please tell me who you sold it to? Thanks. Jennifer From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 06:48:41 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:48:41 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C48D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C48D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <89577BB3-6F0B-4A0E-8410-BC8AD3F48157@neurotica.com> On Mar 16, 2007, at 2:35 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > You seem to have a very harsh viewpoint of the manufacturers. I > have to > protest your first statement that the manufacturers should keep their > definition to themselves. Why? They have as much right to stating > facts as > you do. Your definition of obsolete is not the only one, we both > agree. So > why can't other people express their definition? When one definition is based purely on manipulation to try to separate people from their money whether they want to "upgrade" or not, I believe that is dishonorable and dishonest behavior. > Forced obsolescence is NOT always a fake and a lie. There are > usually very > valid reasons for it that have nothing to do with bilking > customers. It > costs a lot of money to develop and roll out new products. But the > reality > is that consumers are fickle. They demand change, they demand the > new. If > a company sticks with its mature established products and foregoes > development, it usually dies. Sure, that makes perfect sense, and I agree 100% with your point. However, you may have missed MY point. See below. > Think about it - in actual dollar amounts, TV sets sell for about > the same > as they did in the '50s. But cars, houses, clothes, energy, food > have all > been victims of inflation. Compare the current prices of computers > to 5, > 10, 15 years ago. People demand electronics to constantly get > cheaper. So > if a manufacturer wants to meet this demand, he has to find ways to > cut > costs. A legitimate tool often used is to come out with new models > (lower > cost) and make obsolete the current product that can no longer be sold > profitably. Which is great, until the new models drop below the models they replace in quality and/or functionality. At that point, the company has made a big mistake, and their reputation will pay for it. As far as "people demand decreasing prices" and "people demand more functionality" etc...I hear that all over the place, but I never seem to see any people lined up outside Seagate's doors demanding that they make bigger drives, I never see people lined up outside Intel's HQ demanding higher clock rates etc etc. What I DO see is manufacturers constantly DELIVERING increased functionality, and sometimes decreasing prices, and customers eating it up because they have to have the "latest thing" in order to feel good about themselves. Now, please follow me here...That in itself isn't a problem (cue the old adage about fools and their money being soon parted, etc) but when the salesdroids latch onto it and push customers to buy their new product, because "it's new" and therefore it must automatically be better, even when it isn't, well I think that's SLIMY behavior. Uncommon? Not at all. Accepted? (at least by people who don't mind being manipulated and aren't offended by slimy behavior) Absolutely. But slimy. > You expect the lower costs - a current 320GB drive costs a fraction > of the > cost of the 8" floppies when they were new. And the dollar has > inflated and > lost buying power since then. If the consumer won't pay a > profitable price > for a mature product, why should a manufacturer be expected to > continue to > build it? Again, see above. I have no problem with the manufacturer not building it. But at least be honest about it. "We can't build this anymore because we won't be able to stay in business" is perfectly fine. But "We're now selling this new thing and we think you should throw away its predecessor whether you're finished with it or not because we'd like to make a sale" is NOT fine. As above, yes, common, accepted by most (probably by the very same people who actually make spamming a profitable business) but wrong and very slimy in my opinion. You see...I am (in this context) the customer, the money in my wallet is MINE, and *I* decide what I want to spend it on and when...and *I* decide when the products I have are no longer capable of doing their jobs. It is wrong for a manufacturer to tell me that "thing XYZ" is "no longer suitable for use" SIMPLY AND ONLY BECAUSE they've started selling something new and would like me to buy one. Where I come from, that's called a lie. Perhaps I'm expecting too much from the business world, especially in the USA nowadays, but that's crossing a line that should never have been crossed. This is a somewhat complex point to illustrate, and I hope I've illustrated it adequately so you'll understand what I mean. And again, before legions of people pipe up and say "it's been that way for a long time blah blah"...that doesn't make it right. I'm just an intolerant pain in the ass who doesn't like (or tolerate) being pushed around by salespeople with overactive sales glands. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From james.rice at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 07:09:53 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:09:53 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <1174119927.7579.35.camel@elric> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> <20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net> <1174079496.22113.36.camel@ljw.me.uk> <00f101c76811$df417450$0b01a8c0@game> <007601c7682e$1d5cbdf0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <002601c76856$18a6a8c0$0b01a8c0@game> <1174119927.7579.35.camel@elric> Message-ID: <af4d09740703170509o72008fa5x204278fc1072a778@mail.gmail.com> I'm hosting around 120gb of stuff mostly concerning NeXT but with some Sgi, Sun, Mac and Tandy thrown in. ftp.blackcube.org -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From james.rice at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 07:13:56 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:13:56 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <af4d09740703170509o72008fa5x204278fc1072a778@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> <20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net> <1174079496.22113.36.camel@ljw.me.uk> <00f101c76811$df417450$0b01a8c0@game> <007601c7682e$1d5cbdf0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <002601c76856$18a6a8c0$0b01a8c0@game> <1174119927.7579.35.camel@elric> <af4d09740703170509o72008fa5x204278fc1072a778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <af4d09740703170513j544f7f0dw785ffe2965e4bd44@mail.gmail.com> I know it's bad from to replay to one own posting but I just checked and it's 171gb. I guess it's grown. It's also not very well organized. On 3/17/07, James Rice <james.rice at gmail.com> wrote: -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Mar 17 07:32:58 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:32:58 -0000 Subject: old terminals... Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DDE@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I think the keyboards were made up by putting keyswitches into a metal plate then wiring them up in row and column form. A ttl system scanned the rows and columns until it found a closed switch. The count was then equal to the value of the character. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 16 March 2007 23:22 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: old terminals... > > Old terminals > > In the UK in the early 1970's I worked for a (then small) UK company > called Newbury Labs. FWIW, Newbury terminals were common at Cambridge University in the 1980s (but were being replaced by BBC micros running a terminal emoulator). I think they were around at other UK universities too. > We made VDU's or video terminals. The early types used eight bit > parallel shift registers as screen memory. > The model number was 2480 i.e. 24 Rows of 80 Characters. They came in > steel enclosures (painted blue!!) The screen was a 12" tube as used in > mono portable TV's. When I needed a replacement CRT for a Volker-Craig terminal (it has an APL cahracter set, which is why I was repairing it), the only way to get one was to buy a cheap protable TV and remove the CRT from it. Nobody stocked the CRT on its own. > We used to spend half an hour on each one fixing up the screen > geometry with small magnets. > > The newer ones used a crude stored program system made out of TTL ie > no Microprocessors. I have a Newbury terminal somwehre. I forget the model, but it's a later one with a separate keyboard linked up by a wide ribbon cable (I think the connections are just the row and column lines of a switch matrix, there's not much, if any, electronics in the keyboard). I've not been inside it for 20 years, but I thought there was a microproceossor in there. I do rememeber a board of TTL incluing some '181 ALUs, though. -tony From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Mar 17 09:25:54 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rack rails - standards? Message-ID: <20070317142554.34758.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've been working on getting things cleaned up in the basement - and part of that involves putting these devices I have into racks. Unfortunately, the devices and the racks rarely find me at the same time, and as such, I wind up with devices with rails bolted to the side of them, and racks with no rails. But, since rails consist of two parts, the rails on the devices are useless, since I don't have the mating rails. I want to rack up a Cipher drive, and my newly accquired Fujitsu Eagle, and I also have a shelf meant for two CDC sabre drives, that will work to hold another CDC drive I have (non sabre, the older one, 9" platters), it should hold the weight. But, none of the rails I have match up, and the CDC shelf uses a special bracket. I have a couple modern PC clone and Sun servers with full railsets, and I tried borrowing rails from them, but of course the holes don't line up with the holes in the devices. And the Dell rails might have worked if they were meant to mount to a standard rack - I have no idea what this square clip/hole thing is supposed to mate with. So, basically, is there a standard for these things at all? Any hole spacing or rail size standard, or did every manufacurere just make their own? On the two Cipher drives I have, the same model, have totally different rails. So that would suggest that there was at least a device bolt hole standard at one point. But, I am sure this is going to be another case of how wonderful standards are - there are so many to choose from... Is there some designation I should look for when hunting rack rails on eBay? The modern rails don't seem to line up with the device holes at all - are there differnt classes or rails for different weights, or am I just lookig too far into this? -Ian From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 10:03:23 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:03:23 -0700 Subject: Oregon sources (was: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill) In-Reply-To: <074001c76823$0e372eb0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <200703162230.l2GMUAwa021277@onyx.spiritone.com> <074001c76823$0e372eb0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <ded268c40703170803g2fd64d6ej4052d1b6cf543e1a@mail.gmail.com> > > Vince or Paxton, > > Have either of you by any chance checked out Computer Drive Connection in > > Cornelius? I learned of it recently, but have no idea what they're like. > > The website makes them sound at least slightly interesting, and they've > > apparently been around since '94. > > http://www.computerdriveconnection.com/ I am not familiar with either, Nor did I know there was a Goodwill asis in Hillsboro. Will check them out. I am sorry Wacky Willy is no more. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 10:09:36 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:09:36 -0700 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <070601c76814$e339f750$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <ded268c40703151433x5c448e9dwa312e17e435ed6ca@mail.gmail.com> <200703152242.l2FMgc3w011502@onyx.spiritone.com> <1e1fc3e90703161123l15bbdbe0x9cfd04dd1e1793f2@mail.gmail.com> <070601c76814$e339f750$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <ded268c40703170809q32997d00v80ca059fea4a8085@mail.gmail.com> Actually I think he closed his warehouse, move out of the building and put his collection in a couple of containers. He spends winters in Thailand. He had a complete operational IBM 4081 in there. I wonder what happened to it. Paxton From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 10:12:00 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:12:00 -0700 Subject: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <ded268c40703170809q32997d00v80ca059fea4a8085@mail.gmail.com> References: <ded268c40703151433x5c448e9dwa312e17e435ed6ca@mail.gmail.com> <200703152242.l2FMgc3w011502@onyx.spiritone.com> <1e1fc3e90703161123l15bbdbe0x9cfd04dd1e1793f2@mail.gmail.com> <070601c76814$e339f750$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <ded268c40703170809q32997d00v80ca059fea4a8085@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <ded268c40703170812t58fb6aclce987cb2f358b19f@mail.gmail.com> On 3/17/07, Paxton Hoag <innfoclassics at gmail.com> wrote: > Actually I think he closed his warehouse, move out of the building and > put his collection in a couple of containers. He spends winters in > Thailand. He had a complete operational IBM 4081 in there. I wonder > what happened to it. > Not sure what happened to the quoted text This is about Gold-Snippper on Milwaukie avenue in Portland Oregon. > Paxton > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 17 11:24:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:24:02 -0700 Subject: Sorta OT: Good Win9x Telnet server Message-ID: <45FBB3B2.32010.25816C5@cclist.sydex.com> I know that Windows 9x is a terrible kludgy beast, but I'm looking for a good telnet server to run on a Win9x box. Any suggestions? The ones I've tried usually have such a long character echo turnaround that using them is excruciating. The reason I'm doing this because I'm fooling around at the port level with an ISA card that I'm still trying to figure out. On one system, I'm doing my head-scratching; on the Win9x box, I actually have the card and am doing I/O port fiddling via DEBUG over telnet. If I crash the Win9x box, no biggie--just hit reset. If this doesn't work, I suppose that I can run a terminal emulator on the first box and just boot DOS and ctty to COM1 and hook the two boxes together via RS-232C. But using a serial terminal with MS-DOS does have its own problems. What I'm using now is TelnetXQ from DataWizard on an old PR300 box running 98SE. Suggestions welcome. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Mar 17 11:48:49 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:48:49 +0000 Subject: Rack rails - standards? In-Reply-To: <20070317142554.34758.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <20070317142554.34758.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45FC1BF1.7020602@dunnington.plus.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > So, basically, is there a standard for these things > at all? Any hole spacing or rail size standard, or did > every manufacurere just make their own? ANSI/EIA-310-D-1992 or ISO/IEC 60297 (not 60927 as listed in innumerable Sun documents!) are current, but the standard goes back decades. The standard defines the spacing between left and right front rails (17.75"), between the hole centres on the left and right rails (18.25"), and vertically between the holes (see below). The 19" designation you often see is the width of the front panel that bolts onto the rails. The distance from front rail to back rail isn't standardised and in practice that does vary widely between racks, in fact some racks only have rails at the front. We have racks that are 600mm deep, 650mm, 850mm, and 950mm, and with the front rails set back various different distances from the front door (on racks that actually have a front door). American racks often have round holes (I've seen Sun, DEC and SGI racks like this) and use Tinnerman nuts, usually 10-32 UNF thread, which is very similar to European M5 thread. European racks tend to have square holes to put cage nuts into; these are usually M6 thread/size but sometimes M5. On racks with round holes, sometimes a small plate with 3 or 4 tapped holes to match four holes in the rack is used instead of Tinnerman nuts. To see a Tinnerman nut, look at the the picture of a Palnut at http://www.boltproducts.com/tinnerman/nut-bolt-retainers.html (often there's a thin hexagonal nut welded onto the back instead of the simple formed thread shown there) and another common style is shown in the diagram 1/4 of the way down http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/tpl/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi/hdwr/bks/SGI_EndUser/books/Zx106URD_OG/sgi_html/ch01.html For a cage nut see http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=16-026. However all the racks and frames I've seen, US or European, have the same vertical hole spacing to ANSI/EIA-310-D-1992, not the same spacing between every hole but repeated in "units" of three holes -- hence the "42U" designation you sometimes see for a six-foot rack. 1U is 1.75", and the distance between centres of the middle hole and the upper and lower holes are 5/8", and that means the distance between centres between the lower hole of one U and the upper hole of the next U down, is 1/2". There's sometimes a mark -- a scribed line or a small notch in the rail edge -- between one U and the next. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Mar 17 12:16:38 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:16:38 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <01C76896.9BE97560@MSE_D03> --------Original Message: Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:48:41 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? <snip> .... >I'm just an intolerant pain in the ass .... ---------------------------------- At last, something we can agree on... m From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Mar 17 12:24:55 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rack rails - standards? In-Reply-To: <45FC1BF1.7020602@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070317172455.97286.qmail@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > The standard defines the spacing between left and > right front rails > (17.75"), between the hole centres on the left and > right rails (18.25"), > and vertically between the holes (see below). The > 19" designation you > often see is the width of the front panel that bolts > onto the rails. The width of the devices and the mounting holes in the racks themselves are all the same - I knew there was a standard for that much. Sorry if I didn't explain myself very well. That wasn't what I was referring to. The problem I am having is finding rails that will bolt to the sides of the devices themselves. The holes on the sides of various devices (Fujitsu Eagle, Cipher F880, Sun server, etc) don't seem to match up with each other or any of the other rails. > The distance from front rail to back rail isn't > standardised and in > practice that does vary widely between racks, in > fact some racks only > have rails at the front. I was wondering about that too - the Sun rack I have is deeper than some of the other racks, this no-name rack I have has the rear post abou an inch closer to the front than the Dec rack, etc. > American racks often have round holes (I've seen > Sun, DEC and SGI racks > like this) and use Tinnerman nuts, usually 10-32 UNF > thread, I'd noticed that there were a couple styles, the Sun rack and the no-name rack I have use tapped, threaded holes that take the 10-32's and the Dec rack and the Prime racks have unthreaded round holes and use tinnermans. European racks > tend to have square > holes to put cage nuts into; Ah - that explains the weird square tabs and latches on these Dell rails - must be meant for one of those racks. I have never seen one like that. Things are making more sense - thanks for your informative post. I knew about the hole spacing in the uprights, but didn't know that square holes were a standard - I figured it was something Dell did to get you to buy one of their racks :). Now, about the hole spacing on the sides of the devices... Is there a standard for that? Thanks! -Ian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Mar 17 12:43:20 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:43:20 +0000 Subject: Rack rails - standards? In-Reply-To: <20070317172455.97286.qmail@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <20070317172455.97286.qmail@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45FC28B8.2080002@dunnington.plus.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > The width of the devices and the mounting holes in the > racks themselves are all the same - I knew there was a > standard for that much. Sorry if I didn't explain > myself very well. No, that's OK -- I just meant that there is a proper standard for things like that, but it only covers, well, things like that ;-) > Things are making more sense - thanks for your > informative post. I knew about the hole spacing in the > uprights, but didn't know that square holes were a > standard - I figured it was something Dell did to get > you to buy one of their racks :). Now, about the hole > spacing on the sides of the devices... Is there a > standard for that? Nope, sadly not. That's why you have an electric drill and a set of bits to make new holes in the slides ;-) And in fact because of the way some slides are made, not all rails can be adapted to fit any box; some are just too fat or have really odd mounting brackets. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From andy at smokebelch.org Sat Mar 17 13:37:40 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:37:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Telmat P1085 (Esprit Supernode) - more bad photos of transputer kit! Message-ID: <20070317161538.Q41519@plum.flirble.org> Apologies again for the quality of the photos. So this machine has been kept in a damp basement for a while, and on removing a side panel noticed the PSU has become fairly rusty in places. Should I just try and rem\ove all the rust and vacuum / blast it with compressed air? And same for the backplane and cards etc... http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/front.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/side.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/cage.jpg Since the photos are poor included details of some of the ICs (ones I thought may be of relevance): - Backplane takes up to 7 cards, is marked 'Version A 22/10/89' and has 4 x ceramic 80486 sized ICs marked 'NEC RSRE S01 8714K9'. I don't know what these are but suspect they may be soft configurable devices for transputer link routing. - 1 x mass store, with 4 banks of 36 x HM511000P105 http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/store.jpg - 2 x compute boards, each with 8 mezzanine boards containing an IMST800-G20R and 8 x HM62256LP-8. http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/cn.jpg (mezzanine) http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/cn2.jpg - 1 x P1085 Controller, with amongst other things a Z8053006PSC, ICM7170 RTC, AM2864BDC, 16 x HM62256LP-8, Li battery etc. http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/controller.jpg >From Googling it looks like this was the target hardware for the Paros system, and so would be booted via a PC. I'm not sure whether the controller card is some kind of minimal host or just responsible for configuring link routing. The case also has provision for disk and tape drives, which may well have been for the future and never implemented in this system. Not sure whether to try and get this up and running or to part with it so someone else can have a go and focus on the Meiko. Andrew ---------------- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From andy at smokebelch.org Sat Mar 17 13:53:36 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:53:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Telmat P1085 (Esprit Supernode) - more bad photos of transputer kit! In-Reply-To: <20070317161538.Q41519@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070317161538.Q41519@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <20070317184618.L70293@plum.flirble.org> Should have done some more Googling before I sent that. On Sat, 17 Mar 2007, Andrew Back wrote: > - Backplane takes up to 7 cards, is marked 'Version A 22/10/89' and has 4 x > ceramic 80486 sized ICs marked 'NEC RSRE S01 8714K9'. I don't know what these > are but suspect they may be soft configurable devices for transputer link > routing. Looks as though the 'RSRE' chip was a bespoke switching ASIC produced for Supernode development partner Royal Signals & Radar Establishment. "Esprit I P1085 project The work done under the Esprit I P1085 project [1] partially funded by CEC was related the development and applications of a low cost high performance multiprocessor machine. The project involved Royal Signals and Radar Establishment (RSRE prime contractor) Inmos Thorn-Emi CRL University of Southampton University of Liverpool Aptor University of Grenoble(Imag) and Telmat Informatique. The objectives of the project were to develop a highly parallel architecture based on transputers and associated system software and applications. To achieve this Inmos developed the T800 transputer starting from the T414 and the consortium defined the whole machine architecture. Started in December 1985 this 3 years project led to significant industrial products: the T800 transputer the machine architecture and part of the associated software." http://spiedl.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=PSISDG001360000001000109000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes And I'm guessing based on the above and the fact the T800s are marked 'prequal' means they are samples or something? Andrew From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Mar 17 14:58:57 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rack rails - standards? In-Reply-To: <45FC28B8.2080002@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070317195858.77492.qmail@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > No, that's OK -- I just meant that there is a proper > standard for things > like that, but it only covers, well, things like > that ;-) Hehe - of course. Well, at least mounting holes in slides are relatively easy things to fix - hate to see what would have become of things if there was no width standard... > Nope, sadly not. That's why you have an electric > drill and a set of > bits to make new holes in the slides ;-) And in > fact because of the way > some slides are made, not all rails can be adapted > to fit any box; some > are just too fat or have really odd mounting > brackets. Gotcha. I had a sneaking suspicion that it was going to be like that - I just figured I would ask before drilling holes in things and spending time "making it fit" - with my luck I'd do that and then someone would say - "Why did you go to all that trouble, all you need is a standard XYZ mount rail!" Now to start hunting down mating railsets that fit my cabinets. Thanks! -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 17 15:02:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:02:14 -0600 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? Message-ID: <E1HSf6U-0006A1-00@xmission.xmission.com> I've put up a web page with some screen grabs from Modern Marvels: Computers and I'm wondering if anyone can help identify a few of the items of interest to me. There are links that take you to a web form for submitting info easily if you recognize the items... <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/vintage/mm_computers.html> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 16:24:54 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:24:54 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070316080032.064643b8@mail> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070316080032.064643b8@mail> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703171424s54bc8554pc955bab19b393a06@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote: > > > > If you don't have web or file server, how do you "give back"? > What's your ratio of upload to download? > > - John > > I give back via ftp uploads or any other method of uploading (such as a free file hosting site or someones own http upload system, terminal, or sftp, hotline...whatever, you name the upload method and if I have the file I can do it)...I have uploaded over 15GBs to people who have requested vintage software I have be uploaded, that is about even with what I have taken so my ratio is basically even in regards to bandwidth I take and bandwidth I give back :-) and I notice that someone has said I should speciallize in one vintage arena, and I do...I love vintage mac software and have many many many GBs of it and always add to it when given the opportunity...know a good vintage mac archive? please let me know so I can archive it :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 16:26:06 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:26:06 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <00f101c76811$df417450$0b01a8c0@game> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com> <200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk> <20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net> <1174079496.22113.36.camel@ljw.me.uk> <00f101c76811$df417450$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703171426s5f24b938t1e1ba038efc1f4a@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > If anybody here wants to start a website or FTP for Mac 68K drivers and > PDF > Manuals I would be willing to fill it up with what is out on the net and > what I have that is not. It probably would not consume that much bandwidth > considering most of the stuff is just a floppy or two. > > I have 500mb+ of apple repair manuals I can upload :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 16:28:58 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:28:58 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> On 3/15/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > > > > Posting the same message 4 times in a row in a few minutes makes you sound > like a kid, why should anybody take you seriously? > > Well I am a teen... :P ...no one has to take me seriously, but if one gave me a chance they'd see that I'm telling the truth...all it takes is one chance...as for why download and be able to distribute things already online, the reason would be that I'd be one more person with the files so that if the current sites with the files go offline I'd still have the files and would be able to give whoever would want to continue hosting the files for peoples enjoyment the files for their online archive, afterall the more places a file exists the great chance a file has of staying around ;-) :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 17 16:54:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007, Hex Star wrote: > Well I am a teen... :P ...no one has to take me seriously, but if one gave > me a chance they'd see that I'm telling the truth...all it takes is one > chance...as for why download and be able to distribute things already > online, the reason would be that I'd be one more person with the files so > that if the current sites with the files go offline I'd still have the files > and would be able to give whoever would want to continue hosting the files > for peoples enjoyment the files for their online archive, afterall the more > places a file exists the great chance a file has of staying around ;-) :-) OK I knew Don Maslin, and Hex Star is no Don Maslin. But, it's time to cut him a little slack. Perhaps a good starting project for him would be to go to the apple.com websites, and download and assemble a complete collection of every version of Mac OS. That's certainly something that there needs to be copies of before Apple's bean counters decide that "obsolete" OS software should be deleted. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 17 16:59:50 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:59:50 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006701c768df$961ac140$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hex Star" <hexstar at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:28 PM Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? > On 3/15/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Posting the same message 4 times in a row in a few minutes makes you sound > > like a kid, why should anybody take you seriously? > > > > > Well I am a teen... :P ...no one has to take me seriously, but if one gave > me a chance they'd see that I'm telling the truth...all it takes is one > chance...as for why download and be able to distribute things already > online, the reason would be that I'd be one more person with the files so > that if the current sites with the files go offline I'd still have the files > and would be able to give whoever would want to continue hosting the files > for peoples enjoyment the files for their online archive, afterall the more > places a file exists the great chance a file has of staying around ;-) :-) Tell you what, have your parents and relatives send me all their money, valuables, and title to all their cars and houses. I will keep it all in my Swiss account, and if they need something they can ask ME for it and I will see what I can do. Honest, just give me a chance. From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 17:01:15 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:01:15 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> On 3/17/07, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > > > > OK > I knew Don Maslin, and Hex Star is no Don Maslin. > > But, it's time to cut him a little slack. Perhaps a good starting project > for him would be to go to the apple.com websites, and download and > assemble a complete collection of every version of Mac OS. That's > certainly something that there needs to be copies of before Apple's bean > counters decide that "obsolete" OS software should be deleted. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > I already have every Mac OS version, give me a try, name a Mac OS and I'll tell you if I have it or not (you can even request to see a Get Info window on its image for proof) :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 17:04:06 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:04:06 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <006701c768df$961ac140$0b01a8c0@game> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <006701c768df$961ac140$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703171504s5a8ec9f4u8947575e3ccb56ff@mail.gmail.com> On 3/17/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > > > > Tell you what, have your parents and relatives send me all their money, > valuables, and title to all their cars and houses. I will keep it all in > my > Swiss account, and if they need something they can ask ME for it and I > will > see what I can do. Honest, just give me a chance. > > > It's not the same thing and you know it... (or I hope so at least) ><' From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 17:10:09 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:10:09 -0700 Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <200703161418.l2GEIgvK004894@floodgap.com> References: <45FA515F.7000605@oldskool.org> <200703161418.l2GEIgvK004894@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703171510w55a5bfady460493f03ef34d55@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: > > > > It *does* come with an emulator and 50 games (shades of the stinky old > Web.it there). > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- What an incredible thing we did. -- R. J. Mical, Commodore-Amiga > ----------- > Server not found Firefox can't find the server at web.it. * Check the address for typing errors such as ww.example.com instead of www.example.com * If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network connection. * If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Firefox is permitted to access the Web. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 17 17:26:40 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007, Hex Star wrote: > I already have every Mac OS version, give me a try, name a Mac OS and I'll > tell you if I have it or not (you can even request to see a Get Info window > on its image for proof) :-) That's a good start. How are you doing on supplemental files, Developer materials, Programmer's Workbench, etc.? "Which level of Lode-Runner had a missing section of ladder that made that level impossible?" "Which C compiler had a 16 bit char?" Do you have the hardware to handle Lisa, ][. etc.? It also couldn't hurt to have another archive of old versions of PC-DOS/MS-DOS. "How long does it take a 16K PC with 1.00 to boot, relative to XP?" "Which versions of PC-DOS included RECV35.COM?" "Which versions used FORMAT /F:720, v /F:2, v /T:80/N:9 ?" "What differences did 2.11 MODE.COM have in Gavilan v Morrow MS-DOS?" THESE questions are rhetorical, but they are typical of stuff that archivists need to research on a regular basis. It isn't often, but every now and then somebody NEEDS some specific old disk. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 17 18:20:36 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:20:36 -0700 Subject: Waaay OT: animal behaviour / Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill References: <200703152010.l2FKATS6007258@onyx.spiritone.com> <1174070279.7579.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <45FC77C4.49A1F9DB@cs.ubc.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 13:10 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Civilized behavior doesn't even come close. The best way to describe the > > "patrons" would be animals. If all that happens is you get pushed out of > > I have never, in 30-odd years of living on a farm, seen animals behave > like that, and it pisses me off immensely when people describe people > behaving in the way that only humans do as "like animals". Every year I have several encounters with bears. By and large we both give each other a wide berth and go our opposite ways. But I do have to exercise some caution lest I end up as shredded meat because Mr. Bear has a sense of propriety to the berry patch. You may be somewhat justified in not liking having your docile domesticated farm animals included in a general "behave like animals" phrase, but your farm (and the UK) isn't exactly representative of the 'natural' animal environment. Out here in the big wide world there are lots of animals that do indeed "behave like animals". (Some of whom also fall into the class 'human'.) (Even in the UK) you might try putting together a bunch of dogs, leaving them to fend for themselves for a period and then adding a sheep into the mix. - - - As for the "Stab and Grab", they might have an opportunity for another revenue stream by charging admission just to watch. Now that would be strictly human behaviour. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 17 18:24:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:24:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: old terminals... In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DDE@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Mar 17, 7 12:32:58 pm Message-ID: <m1HSiGG-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > [Newburry terminal with separate keyboard] > > I think the keyboards were made up by putting keyswitches into a metal > plate then wiring them up in row and column form. A ttl system scanned > the rows and columns until it found a closed switch. The count was then > equal to the value of the character. Almost certainly it was, it's how just abotu all keyboards of the period worked. Before ROM became cheap enough to use to re-map the keyboard matrix, it was common to wire the matrix so that the physical postiion of the swtich related to the ASCII code (if you concatenate the row and column binaray numbers, you end up with something like the ASCII code of the character). Later on, ROM was cheap enough that it made more sense to wire up the matrix in the most convenient from the point of view of routing the tracks (adjacent keys were then in the same row or column of the electrical matrix), and to use a ROM to convert the concatenated row and column numbers to the ASCII code. Howevery, you're missing my point. The Newbury terminal I have has the keyboard in a separate case. It links up with a fairly wide ribbon cable, and IIRC there are no chips in the keyboard. The encoder circuitry is in the main part of the terminal (and probably does work as you've described, I don't have schematics to check, and I've not got round to tracing them out...) > > -----Original Message----- [...] > > I have a Newbury terminal somwehre. I forget the model, but it's a later > one with a separate keyboard linked up by a wide ribbon cable (I think > the connections are just the row and column lines of a switch matrix, > there's not much, if any, electronics in the keyboard). Now do you see what top-posting is a right pain in the rear? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 17 18:37:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:37:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Telmat P1085 (Esprit Supernode) - more bad photos of transputer kit! In-Reply-To: <20070317161538.Q41519@plum.flirble.org> from "Andrew Back" at Mar 17, 7 06:37:40 pm Message-ID: <m1HSiT7-000J0gC@p850ug1> I don;'t know if it'd be of any help, but I built my own trasnputer-based hardware about 15 years ago. That's ARD-style building, with soldering iron and 'scope, not just plugging a few TRAMs together :-). Anyway, I syspect a lot of this would very easily come back to me, and I certainly still have all the databooks, and for that matter, some real hardware, here. Feel free to ask me stuff if you think I might know the answers. The worst that can happen is 'I haven't a clue!' -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 17 19:24:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:24:35 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45FC86C3.1090105@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: [ questions snipped :-) ] > THESE questions are rhetorical, but they are typical of stuff that > archivists need to research on a regular basis. It isn't often, but every > now and then somebody NEEDS some specific old disk. I'm not going to disagree and say that there aren't archivists who can answer things like that within some narrow area of expertise - but I suspect the vast majority out there make no claim to know everything; the bulk of them will simply archive material in a responsible fashion. I mean, even the Mac is a pretty big field - I doubt any archivist is going to know all there is to know about the Mac, and unless they're paid for their work they likely won't have the time or inclination to research every question that gets asked. What they *can* do though is present their archive material in as flexible form as possible so that in the majority of cases users who do need a specific piece of material can easily find what they need for themselves. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 17 19:50:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FC86C3.1090105@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> <45FC86C3.1090105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070317174016.D35039@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not going to disagree and say that there aren't archivists who can answer > things like that within some narrow area of expertise - but I suspect the vast > majority out there make no claim to know everything; the bulk of them will > simply archive material in a responsible fashion. I intended those rhetorical questions not as things to KNOW, but instead as examples of the kinds of questions that somebody with a decent archive can research and find out from their archive. Sometimes the answer merely requires doing the same operation on each and every version and looking at the results, or even just making a list of what's there. There are OTHER questions that require extensive knowledge and/or experience. > I mean, even the Mac is a pretty big field - I doubt any archivist is going to > know all there is to know about the Mac, and unless they're paid for their > work they likely won't have the time or inclination to research every question > that gets asked. What they *can* do though is present their archive material > in as flexible form as possible so that in the majority of cases users who do > need a specific piece of material can easily find what they need for themselves. Hex Star wants to help; let him do some of the time consuming searching that occasionally needs to be done. From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 21:08:05 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:08:05 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703171908k21d02940ie37c754c3226f030@mail.gmail.com> On 3/17/07, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > > > How are you doing on supplemental files, Developer materials, Programmer's > Workbench, etc.? > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Ah *sigh*...those questions make me wish yet again that I was alive during those times...if only, if only... :-( But at least googling around should get me somewhere with at least some of those questions (it did with the format question...didn't try the others), as for developer manuals and programming IDE's, I have many of those so I defintly feel prepared to help people with that :-) :-) ...other files, I have lots of those, screensavers, apps, games, you name it I've either got it or can get it which'll then help preserve the file and make it more accessible for others quicker next time it's requested :-) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 17 21:38:50 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lode Runner [Re: ftp archives disappearing?] In-Reply-To: <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200703180241.WAA26730@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > "Which level of Lode-Runner had a missing section of ladder that made > that level impossible?" Oh my, good old Lode Runner. I remember that game. Seriously addictive. It's one of the reasons I have a 68000-based Mac around still even though I generally don't keep anything that can't run NetNSD. (It's not set up, though - I should fix that....) I don't recall that level, though. Perhaps I never made it that far into the game. I should see if I can dig out the machine and the Lode Runner disk...perhaps I can run it under emulation. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From james at machineroom.info Sat Mar 17 17:44:06 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:44:06 +0000 Subject: Telmat P1085 (Esprit Supernode) - more bad photos of transputer kit! In-Reply-To: <20070317184618.L70293@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070317161538.Q41519@plum.flirble.org> <20070317184618.L70293@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <45FC6F36.6090301@machineroom.info> Andrew Back wrote: > Should have done some more Googling before I sent that. > > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007, Andrew Back wrote: > >> - Backplane takes up to 7 cards, is marked 'Version A 22/10/89' and >> has 4 x ceramic 80486 sized ICs marked 'NEC RSRE S01 8714K9'. I don't >> know what these are but suspect they may be soft configurable devices >> for transputer link routing. > > Looks as though the 'RSRE' chip was a bespoke switching ASIC produced > for Supernode development partner Royal Signals & Radar Establishment. > > "Esprit I P1085 project The work done under the Esprit I P1085 project > [1] partially funded by CEC was related the development and <snip> Sounds like it could be related to a machine in the Jim Austin collection (http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/) / supercomputers / meganode. James From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Mar 17 19:55:16 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:55:16 -0500 Subject: Free to a good home Message-ID: <000801c768f8$17d40ee0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> I have been trying to find good homes for some of my stuff, seems most people prefer to recycle for the metal and plastic. Classiccmp has been a place I watch from time to time, seems I'm always in the background.. So.. I would like to offer the following to the collectors who subscribe to this list. 1. Compaq portable, model 1, dual floppies, software and manuals. Excellent condition. 2. Apple PowerMac, I have to check the model, but has a DOS compatibility card. 3. Original IBM EGA monitor, needs repaired, but is in excellent condition. 4. Two IBM PS/2 Model 25's, fully functional, used at a local college. 5. One IBM PS/2 Model 30, fully functional. 6. Original IBM 83 key AT keyboard. I have other PS/2's 80's, 65, 70. I have to see which ones I have to find a new home for. PS/2 motherboards and hard drives. This is the tip of the iceberg as I really need to clear ALOT of stuff out, but do not want to see it scrapped when I do believe I can find some in the Classic Computer list who may need parts/systems. I am more of a user / collector of DEC stuff, microvax's, alpha station and servers. Send any questions / requests, I will try to answer all Dan Snyder From info at harrells.net Sat Mar 17 19:15:46 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:15:46 -0400 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? In-Reply-To: <E1HSf6U-0006A1-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1HSf6U-0006A1-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45FC84B2.70001@harrells.net> The background tape drives are from Control Data Corporation and the front cabinets are also from Control Data but I can't tell you any more as I can't make out the name plate on the cabinets Richard wrote: > I've put up a web page with some screen grabs from Modern Marvels: > Computers and I'm wondering if anyone can help identify a few of the > items of interest to me. There are links that take you to a web form > for submitting info easily if you recognize the items... > > <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/vintage/mm_computers.html> > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 17 23:26:46 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:26:46 -0800 Subject: Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <000801c768f8$17d40ee0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <000801c768f8$17d40ee0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <p06240832c2226fd642c9@[192.168.1.199]> At 7:55 PM -0500 3/17/07, Dan Snyder wrote: >I have been trying to find good homes for some of my stuff, seems most people People will want to know at least roughly where this stuff is located. :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Mar 17 22:28:35 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:28:35 -0500 Subject: free for the cost of shipping, from Austin, Texas Message-ID: <45FCB1E3.2040609@pacbell.net> More spring cleaning. Item #1 ------------ For the past eight years I've been keeping a box that supposedly has a B&W CRT in it; it was given to me by a retiring engineer and TRS-80 enthusiast. I finally opened the box and confirmed there is a CRT of some kind it it, although whether or not it is for a trs-80 I haven't checked. I have no need for it; anybody willing to pay shipping on it can have it. It is in great shape and in fact, might be unused. It looks to be about 12" diagonal. There are a lot of different markings on the tube, and I'm not sure which is the most important; in fact, the layout of the markings is such that I can't always tell what goes with what, but I'll try my best: RCA Electron Tube 12VCLP4 Model No. 6 EIA 274 KTR131B Elsewhere it says EIA 1240. Item #2 --------------- I have a heathkit h89 carcas -- it has been stripped of most valuables, but it might have a few parts that someone needs to get their h89 going. Probably the two things that might be of most interest are the CRT and they keycaps. If you want either of those, or want me to check for any other bits on it (mounting brackets or whatever), let me know. It has no floppies and I was told that the electronics had been smoked via an unfortunate application of the wrong voltages. Still, if you want to take a chance, I could pull the cards and let you sort out what might have escaped unharmed. From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Mar 17 22:32:53 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:32:53 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) Message-ID: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> I've been thinking recently about the whole issue of archival and preservation of classic software, especially system disks, as it is the "essential first step" to getting a classic system up and performing useful work. Several recent things have happened to prompt me to put my thoughts into words: - Mention of Don Maslin, and archival topics in recent postings here. - During a recent google search, I stumbled across a posting reminding me of details of the situation with Dons archive and family. - Correspondance with someone geographically quite distant from me that needed assistance in generating system disks for a classic system. Turning to the list I thought I could find someone closer to help him, yet the single response I received was from someone just as far away as I. I never got to know Don personally, however I did correspond with him on several occations, and it was apparent to me that he was knowlegable and committed to his work in preserving classic software. Add to that many testimonials and references to him that I've encountered in my travels, and It's clear that his contribution was not small. But... as we all know now, there was a fatal flaw in Dons operation. He put "all the eggs in one basket" by keeping his archive in a single physical form, and did not make arrangements for the preservation and continuance of that archive/service. We can learn from this. No matter how many times we say "too bad", and how much we hope that the archive will "reappear", this has not happened, and does not appear likely to happen. To my mind, there is really only one thing to do, which is to build a new archive. To that end, I would like to present as a topic for discussion the idea of a concerted effort by the members of this list to build a long-term archive of classic system software. Here are some of my own thoughts on such a project: = How to obtain material Although Dons archive has been lost, I would guess that between us we have much of the content of that archive (heck, many of us got copies of boot disks from Don), and also a whole lot of applicable material that was not in the archive. Between us we represent a great variety of working classic systems. I also do not expect to build a "complete" archive overnight (or ever), but with an ongoing effort, it will grow and grow... = How to store the archive I am a strong believer in preservation of the physical media as historic artifacts, however I believe it is also vital to preserve the data separately in modern formats, for several reasons: - It allows easy replication and mirroring in multiple locations. This will help insure that the material is not lost in the future through any single failure point (fire, flood, death, loss-of-interest - all of these things and more can wipe out a single physical archive). - It removes dependance on specific (and usually obsolete) physical media. No need to put wear and tear on the original artifacts, and allows for contingencies in the event that the original devices become inoperative. - Allows for easy sharing and movement of the data. - Allows everything to be tracked in a central repository (appropriately mirrored of course). - Allows anyone who wants to set up the required equipment to have complete access to the repository content. = How to go about building it A tricky question - Who's going to do all this work? The good news is that it can be shared, but it will require a bit of a committment. Not everyone is going to want to put up the investment to acquire the means to process their disk collection. What I am thinking of is several key volenteers positioned so as to cover the major geographic areas who would be willing to set up the necessary software and equipment to handle as many different media types as possible, and provide a service to nearby collectors to turn media into images, and to turn images into media. Working with others in the project, the images could be transmitted and shared so that any particuylar system disk can be accessed from anywhere. = How to make the archive available Another tricky question, which has two major components, legality and accessability. On the legal side, copyright issues are a concern. Among other things, we could consider doing what the SEBHC group has done with it's Heathkit archive, and NOT make the archive public. With SEBHC you have to apply for a (free) membership to access the archive. As for accessing the archive - how does someone get a boot disk for classic system X - if he's lucky and it can be created on a PC (or another Classic system that he has running), then he could obtain the image and necessary software directly from the archive. If he is not equipped to recreate the media, the the "key volenteers" mentioned above come into play - think of them as a worldwide network of Don Maslins, able to provide disks to others, but doing so in coordination with other archivists and using a central repository. If any one person drops out for whatever reason, someone else can fill in, and the system just keeps going. Lots more thoughts, but this is long enough for now... As most of you know, I've been taking some small steps along these lines with my own system disk repository, however it's simply not enough - I can only preserve the systems I come in contact with, and I would feel better if I knew others were keeping up to date mirrors of the material... (fortunately in addition to my two local copies, Jay has the actual complete site on classiccmp and backed up via his computer center). So whatdya say, is there any interest? (lotsa room for discussion here) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Mar 17 22:53:04 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gee, nobody has talked about the ASR33 in a while... Message-ID: <20070318035304.81496.qmail@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, as I reorganize and clean, I managed to sidetrack myself from the aforementioned cleaning by playing with my ASR33 TeleType. I have it working properly, and it prints and types correctly - although I have never managed to interface it to anything. I remember a year ago, trying some quickie kludge I found on the 'net, and having it not work. I am struggling to remember what I thought I used to know about TeleType interfaces. Correct me if I'm wrong: The teletype's serial output is compatible with RS232 at the protocol level, and since it's a 33, it's ASCII too. The TeleType is a passive device with a 20ma current loop interface. In order to work, it needs a loop current source (I had to use a 9v radio battery for testing) The signal levels, being 20ma current loop, are NOT compatible directly with RS232C. That being said, it's seemingly possible in some circumstances to interface the two with a diode and a resistor and have it work. In interfacing this thing, I basically want to be able to construct a simple device that 1) supplies loop current, 2) optically isolates the current loop from the RS232 host, and 3) provides proper RS232 signal levels (MAX232, what a wonderful little chip) so that I can connect it to whatever without worrying about blowing up the transceivers. I should be able to scrounge up some optoisolators, I know I have MAX232's and I should have no trouble constructing a simple, transformer based power supply to supply power for both the MAX232 and the loop current. But, I have forgotten some key elements, such as I don't know what an acceptable voltage is to supply the loops, and although I remember reading that the RX and TX used different amounts of juice, I don't remember the specs, and lastly - AC or DC loops? DC, right? What's an acceptable way to create loop current without driving something too hard or blowing something up? Also, my TeleType manual doesn't appear to have information on what screw terminals do what on the terminal strip at the back of the machine - I think I remember which ones were RX and which were TX, but I would like to be sure. It's late... I am bound to have something horribly wrong in my mind (and therefore in this post) right now. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 17 22:59:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:59:55 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? In-Reply-To: <45FC84B2.70001@harrells.net> References: <E1HSf6U-0006A1-00@xmission.xmission.com>, <45FC84B2.70001@harrells.net> Message-ID: <45FC56CB.24161.4D528A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Mar 2007 at 20:15, info wrote: > The background tape drives are from Control Data Corporation and the > front cabinets are also from Control Data but I can't tell you any more > as I can't make out the name plate on the cabinets The background drives are probably 607's or 609's--the photo's too fuzzy for positive ID--but my money'd be on 607's which were far more common (I loved those drives and despised the 657 "cost reduced" replacements). Unfortunately, there are no mainframe cabinets anywhere in the photo-- what you see in the foreground are 3000-series controllers, but that doesn't mean a thing, as both the 3000 and 6000 series used 3000 peripherals for tape., card and printing. The 6000 used a 6681/2 channell converter, which then would interface to, say, a 3423 tape controller. The cabinet sitting next to the 415 card punch in the middle foreground is probably a 3447 punch controller. Maybe Billy Petit can recognize some of the cabinets--it's far too fuzzy to make out any numbers. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 17 23:03:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:03:51 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, Dave, so give me the name and address of some place to give my diskette collection to should I be hit by a falling airplane tomorrow morning on my dog walk. Otherwise, my wife's not going to know what to do with it, and, God forbid she should depart before I do, the trust who will be the executor of our estate will simply dumpster it. I can put someplace/one in our will to make sure that it won't happen that way. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 17 23:08:52 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore's new PCs In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703171510w55a5bfady460493f03ef34d55@mail.gmail.com> from Hex Star at "Mar 17, 7 03:10:09 pm" Message-ID: <200703180408.l2I48q8M005052@floodgap.com> > > It *does* come with an emulator and 50 games (shades of the stinky old > > Web.it there). > Server not found > Firefox can't find the server at web.it. [unnecessary chaff snipped] Why don't you Google it instead of attaching the Firefox error message? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Flat text is just *never* what you want. -- stephen p spackman ------------- From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 17 23:28:19 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:28:19 -0600 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:59:55 -0700. <45FC56CB.24161.4D528A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <E1HSn0F-0002MW-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45FC56CB.24161.4D528A2 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: > Unfortunately, there are no mainframe cabinets anywhere in the photo-- > what you see in the foreground are 3000-series controllers, but that > doesn't mean a thing, as both the 3000 and 6000 series used 3000 > peripherals for tape., card and printing. The 6000 used a 6681/2 > channell converter, which then would interface to, say, a 3423 tape > controller. What do they control? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 17 23:50:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:50:33 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? In-Reply-To: <E1HSn0F-0002MW-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <Your message of Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:59:55 -0700. <45FC56CB.24161.4D528A2@cclist.sydex.com> >, <E1HSn0F-0002MW-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45FC62A9.18899.50384FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Mar 2007 at 22:28, Richard wrote: > > Unfortunately, there are no mainframe cabinets anywhere in the photo-- > > what you see in the foreground are 3000-series controllers, but that > > doesn't mean a thing, as both the 3000 and 6000 series used 3000 > > peripherals for tape., card and printing. The 6000 used a 6681/2 > > channell converter, which then would interface to, say, a 3423 tape > > controller. > > What do they control? I thought that was pretty clear from my statement. The one next to the 415 card punch is almost certainly a 3447 (which controls the card punch); the other cabinet *might* be something like a 3423 tape controller (there are several varieties of tape controllers, all looking the same, which vary in the number of channels and drives supported). Again, there is no positive ID of the system they were servicing, because that isn't visible on the photo--it could be anything from a 3100 to a 6700. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 00:02:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:02:09 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? In-Reply-To: <E1HSn0F-0002MW-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <Your message of Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:59:55 -0700. <45FC56CB.24161.4D528A2@cclist.sydex.com> >, <E1HSn0F-0002MW-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45FC6561.19019.50E236E@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Mar 2007 at 22:28, Richard wrote: > What do they control? Here's an example of what I mean. Here's a photo of a dual 6600 system: http://www.windoweb.it/edpstory_new/foto_storia_computer/eh1960_f18.jp g Note that the CPU is visible nowhere--just the 6612 (maybe 6602/3) consoles and off to one side of the tape drive bank, the 3000-series tape drive controller and 405 card reader. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Mar 18 02:20:51 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:20:51 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45FCE853.8080302@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: I have sold and passed on my hardware collection to a friend who is much more interested in admiring old hardware than I am. The data and documentation I am trying to archive for Al Kossow and the CHM. My wife and friends are aware of this should it not happen before I complete the task, and the archives would be cared for. It is sad that situations occur where the archives are lost due to others around the collector being unaware of the value of the archive, or hostile to the activity. There probably is a long list of things ways archives are lost. Also as a lot of us age, and become unemployed we have to break up very nice collections, or halt activity building them, and the collections are liquidated before data can be archived. Jim From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Mar 18 02:34:04 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:34:04 -0800 Subject: Goodwill Compter works (back on that topic, not bears, etc.) Message-ID: <45FCEB6C.3080808@msm.umr.edu> I was holding off comment on this, but today I found out that both of the Orange County Goodwill operations have been "reorganized" and new people are managing them. Luckily, it looks like the people who are in charge won't do anything out front, but there is no telling what the back operation is doing. I think one thing that is stressing goodwill and other thrift stores out here is the "recycling" operations that are picking up at the waste disposal centers here. about 15 or 20 years ago, a friend in Kansas City was a pioneer in the recycling of commercial equipment with the Surplus Exchange. Bruce Holland recognized that a lot of this was just stuff a bean counter wanted off the floor that he was renting and would give it to someone who carted it off. He began taking not just computers but everything not nailed down that an operation didn't want and distributed it to a network of charities for free inKC. In return most of their donations went to the Surplus exchange rather than being turned away. ANyway, now I see that the prices at goodwill for such as 500 to 700 to 1ghz systems is still at the $250 to $350 level, which is just too high. Also a lot of stuff is going to these recyclers, so they are loosing donations, I suspect. Anyway, as to collecting old computers there is probably not that much going to goodwill these days. I suspect most of what comes out are old pentiums, and P2's etc, and it would be pretty hard to get upset with them for loosing the odd old pile in all the stuff they have to deal with. As far as the original posting, from Jim Battle about Austin Goodwill. These operations are not set up to handle a lot of variety in their input. They have to move tons of excess every week, and simply don't have either the trained or sheltered workshop manpower to handle the odd stuff. They are primarily taking the profit the get from any sold donations to hire people with serious life issues, and they will not be spending any money to change their handling of anything, whether computers, antiques or whatever of any kind, but rather keep the basic flow of material going. Wish they could operate in a different way. Even worse, in a town which is the home town it is sad that there is no used computer or electronic surplus store with sufficient business and expertise to take your collectible and sell it, rather than a Goodwill thrift store. These operations are way more endangered now days than used book stores, my other favorite place to get lost in and browse. Ebay for all its flaws is pretty much where you get rid of strange junk these days, or recycle it, unless you are near some operation such as Gateway Electronics in St. Louis, Mo, or whatever similar operation may be around. jim From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Mar 18 02:00:59 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 03:00:59 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> <45FCE853.8080302@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <004301c7692b$2f441650$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim" <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:20 AM Subject: Re: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) The problem seems to be having one person organize everything and keep everything. I look at what the Amiga comunity has done preserving their apps, games, and hardware. A group of people (some come and go over time) do the cataloging while users contribute disk images, box scans, hardware photographs and knowledge, etc. Everybody pitches in and the original material is not transfered while the archives are on the net for everybody. What I wanted to do with old 68k Mac material is start a website or ftp site and dump what I have in an organized manner and let others start contributing (and using what is available) so that everybody can get something from it and contribute when they can. Plenty of people have rare disks and items in their possession but have no place to send it. There are plenty of places on the internet where you can let people know about the project and get the word out (forums, newsgroups, swaplists, etc). Either you do the archiving as a community or you will never get anything done that will last. From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 18 05:13:15 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:13:15 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> > Okay, Dave, so give me the name and address of some place to give my > diskette collection to should I be hit by a falling airplane tomorrow > morning on my dog walk. Otherwise, my wife's not going to know what > to do with it, and, God forbid she should depart before I do, the > trust who will be the executor of our estate will simply dumpster it. > > I can put someplace/one in our will to make sure that it won't happen > that way. Hi Chuck, I think this is a separate issue, what to do to protect the physical artifacts in our various collections - In this sense, diskettes are no different than computers, S-100 cards or any other physical thing that you consider valuable/important enough to want to insure it's survival bayond your own ability to care for it. Each of us must put in place whatever arrangements we feel are appropriate. Perhaps it wasn't clear in my previous posting, but I was not suggesting that we create a repository for physical media - I believe that most collectors with media matching hardware would not want to give up those original media for archival, and physical media also has limitations and vulnerabilities that make it more difficult to mirror and share among a group of people (The vulnerability of physical media is one of the lessons we can learn from the situation with Dons archive). What I was trying to suggest is that we work together to make a group managed archive of the content of the many system diskettes (and other media) that we collectively have in our possession. This would best be done soon, before we all kick the proverbial bucket. Once the content of those diskettes of yours are placed into a repository, that content would be protected against loss to the community. Yes, the physical disks would remain at risk, and you should take whatever measures you feel are appropriate for them, as you would any other item of significance in your estate. Physical artifacts are a topic for another discussion. I would suggest that at the very least we place the following information somewhere where it will be available to anyone with the unfortunate task of having to clean our our basements: - And indication that the material is important and should not be contributed to landfill. (If you have valuable items in your collection, I assume you would identify those for your estate). - Names and contact information of knowlegable people who can help in it's disposition. If nothing else, information about how to contact this list. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 05:40:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:40:56 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <000801c768f8$17d40ee0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <000801c768f8$17d40ee0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <45FD1738.7060908@gmail.com> Dan Snyder wrote: > I have been trying to find good homes for some of my stuff, seems most people prefer to > recycle for the metal and plastic. Classiccmp has been a place I watch from time to time, > seems I'm always in the background.. So.. I would like to offer the following to the collectors > who subscribe to this list. > > 1. Compaq portable, model 1, dual floppies, software and manuals. Excellent condition. > 2. Apple PowerMac, I have to check the model, but has a DOS compatibility card. > 3. Original IBM EGA monitor, needs repaired, but is in excellent condition. > 4. Two IBM PS/2 Model 25's, fully functional, used at a local college. > 5. One IBM PS/2 Model 30, fully functional. > 6. Original IBM 83 key AT keyboard. > > I have other PS/2's 80's, 65, 70. I have to see which ones I have to find a new home for. > PS/2 motherboards and hard drives. > > This is the tip of the iceberg as I really need to clear ALOT of stuff out, but do not want to see > it scrapped when I do believe I can find some in the Classic Computer list who may need parts/systems. > > I am more of a user / collector of DEC stuff, microvax's, alpha station and servers. > > Send any questions / requests, I will try to answer all I'm looking for the chassis/case from a PS/2 9595. Needs to be in good shape. Peace... Sridhar From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sun Mar 18 07:16:55 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:16:55 +0100 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <C222EC47.38EE7%jvdg@sparcpark.net> On 3/17/07 11:01 PM, Hex Star wrote: > I already have every Mac OS version, give me a try, name a Mac OS and I'll > tell you if I have it or not (you can even request to see a Get Info window > on its image for proof) :-) Do you have Mac OS 7.5.4? ,xtG .tsooJ -- Ich moechte eine Welt, eine Welt in der Wuermer und Insekten endlich wieder schmecken. Ich moechte eine Welt in der ich aus einer Toilette trinken kann, ohne Auschlag zu kriegen. -- Joost van de Griek <http://www.jvdg.net/> From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 18 07:32:16 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > So whatdya say, is there any interest? Well, I've got some disk space and a netlink. I wouldn't mind holding a few gigs of data, either exported to the world via FTP, exported to classiccmp, exported to just archive maintainer staff, exported to no-one, whatever seems best. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Mar 18 07:59:49 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:59:49 -0500 Subject: Free to a good home Message-ID: <001c01c7695d$4f9cce60$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Sorry, forgot to let everyone reading this post where I'm located, I am located in Butler, PA 16001 Dan Snyder From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Mar 18 08:07:00 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:07:00 -0500 Subject: Free to a good home Message-ID: <002f01c7695e$50b48a80$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> I forgot to include three Centronics printers, models 779, 761 and 781. All are complete and I believe they powerup. I have the service manuals for the 779 and 761. These have been kept indoors in a clean environment since I retired them in the early 80's. I am located in Butler, PA 16001 Dan Snyder From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Mar 18 09:15:25 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:15:25 -0400 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:02:14 MDT." <E1HSf6U-0006A1-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <200703181415.l2IEFPmV024140@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: >I've put up a web page with some screen grabs from Modern Marvels: >Computers and I'm wondering if anyone can help identify a few of the >items of interest to me. There are links that take you to a web form >for submitting info easily if you recognize the items... > ><http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/vintage/mm_computers.html> Someone I work with just told me his wife is a "rocket scientist" at Draper and she's working with someone who claims to have worked on the Apollo GC simulator. I'll ask him to forward this on... -brad From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Mar 18 09:45:49 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Couple of Remex paper tape reader/punch's on Gov-Liquidation In-Reply-To: <002f01c7695e$50b48a80$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <002f01c7695e$50b48a80$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.62.0703180743410.19891@freeby.mesanet.com> Apologies if this has already been pointed out: http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1161585&convertTo=USD Peter Wallace From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun Mar 18 10:59:56 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:59:56 -0700 Subject: Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <p06240832c2226fd642c9@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <01bd01c76976$79e9eea0$6501a8c0@NFORCE4> Dan Wrote: >I have been trying to find good homes for some of my stuff, seems most people Zane Wrote: > People will want to know at least roughly where this stuff is located. :^) Come on. Dan wrote: "Original IBM EGA monitor, needs repaired, but is in excellent condition." So obviously he's from PA! :) (Ok, so I cheated and waited for him to confirm it.) Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 11:28:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:28:57 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2007 at 5:13, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Once the content of those diskettes of yours are placed into a > repository, that content would be protected against loss to the > community. Yes, the physical disks would remain at risk, and you > should take whatever measures you feel are appropriate for them, > as you would any other item of significance in your estate. Ah, but there's the rub in some cases. While the content may be interesting, the physical media may well be more important. For example, old Drivetec/Kodak disks and drives are more interesting for archival purposes than their contents. This is stuff that I've collected as a normal part of business--I've mentioned before that I'm not a collector, so it's unlikely that I'm going to expend much effort trying to preserve this material. And my estate will be less interested. Please note that this is not to denigrate your original observations or statements, but rather to point out that potentially valuable items to collectors are often just so much flotsam to the rest of the world. And that's what will cause a lot of artifacts to pass from this world into the landfill. I was thinking about why there are plenty of centuries-old violins and other musical instruments around (I play a tuba that's nearing the century mark and it's probably worth at least as much as it was when it was new) while computers seem to be disappearing into the bowels of the earth at a fast clip. Of course the answer is that a violin made in 1720 is every bit as useful as it was when it was new; something that can't be said for an old computer. A lot of old brass and percussion instruments end up as decorator items, hung on walls and whatnot. A friend recovered two fairly expensive (>$30K each) Italian violins from the walls of the local American Legion hall. An old Civil-War era saxhorn that had been made into a lamp found its way to eBay recently and went for a couple of thousand, even with a couple of holes bored in it--a restorer will eventually bring it back to playable condition. I'd rather see an old bombardon have a hole bored through to bell to hang on a wall than see it get melted down as scrap. This is sort of a wacky idea, but since old computers generally have less utility as computers to people, how about encouraging their use as decor? That might keep them preserved longer. CHeers, Chuck > Physical artifacts are a topic for another discussion. I would > suggest that at the very least we place the following information > somewhere where it will be available to anyone with the unfortunate > task of having to clean our our basements: > > - And indication that the material is important and should not be > contributed to landfill. (If you have valuable items in your > collection, I assume you would identify those for your estate). > - Names and contact information of knowlegable people who can help > in it's disposition. If nothing else, information about how to > contact this list. > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 11:42:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:42:20 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? In-Reply-To: <45FC6561.19019.50E236E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <Your message of Sat, <E1HSn0F-0002MW-00@xmission.xmission.com>, <45FC6561.19019.50E236E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45FD097C.8019.78F2C30@cclist.sydex.com> I took a closer look at that CDC setup and the box on the viewer's right side appears to have a glass inset on the top, which would probably make it not a controller but a 501 line printer (an 800 lpm drum printer). The other cabinet on the left may also be a 501--this would not be an atypical setup of the time. Still doesn't answer the question of what the CPU is, but I don't think that can be answered, unless someone recognizes the room itself. Those 3000-series green glass enclosures were used for everything, it seems in retrospect. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 11:48:48 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:48:48 -0500 Subject: Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <001c01c7695d$4f9cce60$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <001c01c7695d$4f9cce60$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703180948x202a447ejf0d084cd9e2ffc22@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Dan Snyder <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote: > Sorry, forgot to let everyone reading this post where I'm located, > > I am located in Butler, PA 16001 Nice part of the country... I wasn't interested in the specific items you have for giveaway, but I do happen to be in your neck of the woods, once or twice a year. I go camping at Cooper's Lake Campground at US 422 at I-79 (a few minutes West of Butler, for the benefit of the rest of the list). I go shopping for supplies in Butler, often. If you happen to post something that overlaps my interests, I'd probably be willing to swing by to pick it up, especially if it's in May or August. Cheers, -ethan From james.rice at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 11:56:46 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:56:46 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <af4d09740703180956s780e4d44ke83452f41a86a102@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > > > > This is sort of a wacky idea, but since old computers generally have > less utility as computers to people, how about encouraging their use > as decor? That might keep them preserved longer. > > CHeers, > Chuck Actually TGI Fridays may have beat us to that idea. One of our local Friday's has a mint condition TRS-80 CoCo 1 hanging on the wall along with a lot of other 1980's memorabilia. James -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From aek at spies.com Sun Mar 18 09:52:45 2007 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kosssow) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:52:45 +0100 Subject: ftp archives disappearing Message-ID: <45FD523D.20701@spies.com> > How are you doing on supplemental files, Developer materials, Programmer's > Workbench, etc.? I have limited email connectivity right now, which is why I haven't been commenting on the recent archiving discussions. Apple development tools are easily found in CD form, staring with "Phil and Dave's Excellent CD" I probably have a complete set, and I'm pretty sure CHM has one as well. Apple Developers CD's also show up on eBay. re: deposition of collections when you're gone contact the CHM registrar (allision akbay, akbay at computerhistory.org) and she can help setting up something if you would like to donate your collection to the Computer History Museum. I'm obviously biased, since I am responsible for their software collection, but I think that artifacts will be taken care of there. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Mar 18 12:18:33 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card Message-ID: <20070318171833.60528.qmail@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I was tinkering around with my ASR33 today, and I must have supplied a little too much loop current to it, because it stopped running open. Normally, if nothing is connected to it, it rattles away, printing nothing. I had found in the past that if I connected the RX lines together, it stopped, and I was trying to supply it with a current so I could interface it to something, and it stopped rattling, and removing the current didn't make it go back to rattling. When you unplug it, it rattles a couple times as it loses power. I immediately assumed that I must have blown up one of the probably two or thee transistors in the entire device, so I pulled out the selector magnet driver card to have a look. The diode at the bottom of the card, CR2, is cracked apart! Also, I am noticing that R7 at the top of the card has managed to unsolder itself due to the heat it generates. What is a suitable replacement for CR2? It's hard to read seeming as though it is missing a chunk. CR1 looks to be the same - but I read it as a 1N4smudge3, which is rather hard to cross reference. I found the schematic in the manual, but not a parts list. I'll keep looking, but I figured I would ask the experts here. Unless this was some kind of coincidence, I think I need to double check my 20ma power supply. Thanks! -Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 18 13:25:38 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:25:38 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <af4d09740703180956s780e4d44ke83452f41a86a102@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> <af4d09740703180956s780e4d44ke83452f41a86a102@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FD8422.5040602@jetnet.ab.ca> James Rice wrote: > > Actually TGI Fridays may have beat us to that idea. One of our local > Friday's has a mint condition TRS-80 CoCo 1 hanging on the wall along > with a > lot of other 1980's memorabilia. Dead 5 1/4 floppies hung on the wall where I worked in the 1980's. > James > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 18 12:35:23 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703181737.NAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Of course the answer is that a violin made in 1720 is every bit as > useful as it was when it was new; something that can't be said for an > old computer. Depends on your definition of "useful". Old computers still do everything they ever did (well, unless they need repair - but the same could be said of violins). It's user expectations that have changed. Not that this alleviates the problem, which is that old computers are *seen as* less useful than they were when new.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Mar 18 13:03:01 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:03:01 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> <200703181737.NAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <003601c76987$aba83ee0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) > > Of course the answer is that a violin made in 1720 is every bit as > > useful as it was when it was new; something that can't be said for an > > old computer. > > Depends on your definition of "useful". Old computers still do > everything they ever did (well, unless they need repair - but the same > could be said of violins). It's user expectations that have changed. > > Not that this alleviates the problem, which is that old computers are > *seen as* less useful than they were when new.... > I think you have to look at how many people played the violin in 1720 compared to now, many musicians today play electric guitars these days that did not exist in 1720. The problem with computing today is that people have shifted to the internet and web based tasks along with movies and music which the older machines can not do or do well. A 1720's violin is as useless to Metallica as a C64 is useless to a youtube fanatic. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 12:59:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:59:45 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FD8422.5040602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <af4d09740703180956s780e4d44ke83452f41a86a102@mail.gmail.com>, <45FD8422.5040602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45FD1BA1.29874.7D61191@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2007 at 11:25, woodelf wrote: > Dead 5 1/4 floppies hung on the wall where I worked in the 1980's. I recall a computer room with tape write enable rings hanging off the light fixtures... Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 18 13:11:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:11:31 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D5BCF8F-AA9F-49A4-AF6E-5F7FCDD3E6C3@neurotica.com> On Mar 18, 2007, at 12:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > This is sort of a wacky idea, but since old computers generally have > less utility as computers to people, how about encouraging their use > as decor? That might keep them preserved longer. Try, just TRY to get that idea past just about any female. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 13:29:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:29:03 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <003601c76987$aba83ee0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <003601c76987$aba83ee0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45FD227F.8351.7F0E3ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2007 at 14:03, Teo Zenios wrote: > A 1720's violin is as useless to Metallica as a C64 is useless to a youtube > fanatic. Not to stray too far off-topic, but... The market for a 1720's violin is much larger (i.e. more buyers) than it ever was in 1720--and the prices that are paid are much larger. That's mostly due to population growth, but violinists are far from a dying breed--and music employing bowed strings is about as popular as it ever was in terms of number of works performed each year. The simple fact is that 1720 violin will do everything that one would want a violin of any age to do--and it generally does it better. That it's old is of small importance. But then, the field of violin- making was mature in the 1720's. The same cannot be said for a C64--or even a VAX. Will computing ever mature to the point that a 30-year computer will do everything that a user desires just as well as a brand-new machine will? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 18 13:35:57 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:35:57 -0600 Subject: Fwd: large vanload of NorthStar equipment offered Message-ID: <E1HT0EX-0007M0-00@xmission.xmission.com> See attached; respond to the poster directly and not to me, thanks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 18 13:41:04 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:41:04 -0600 Subject: Fwd: large vanload of NorthStar equipment offered In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:35:57 -0600. <E1HT0EX-0007M0-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <E1HT0JU-0005Pr-00@xmission.xmission.com> Well apparently the attachment didn't come through... So here it is inline. Please respond to the original poster directly and not to me. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:14:02 -0500 From: "OLD-COMPUTERS.COM Newsletter" <mail at old-computers.com> Subject: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM ~ donation offer Id: <E1HSv5t-0000N7-41 at mgr14.xmission.com> --------- Hi Tim Deaton, former Northstar dealer, contacted us to offer us as a donation a la rge van load of NorthStar and NorthStar related computers, software, parts and m isc stuff including Horizon, Advantage, and Din- ension chassis and parts, never been used Zenith S-100 buss machine, never opene d software applications packages, old technical manuals, add-on cards and device s, and oddball stuff... Sadly, as we are based in France we can't handle this exceptional donation. So we pass the message to all collectors, mainly those based in the USA. If you want this stuff, there are two conditions: - you must accept to help www.old-computers.com get info & pictures from this st uff to be added to the museum - You will have to do as as Tim say (see his email below) If you are interested, mail me back (olivier at old-computers) explaining why you t hink you can fulfill those two conditions. I will give Tim contacts to the first serious reply. Good luck ___TIM ORIGINAL MAIL________ I have a large van load of NorthStar and NorthStar related computers, software, parts and misc stuff that needs a good home. You can have this stuff IF you will use it responsibly. This includes Horizon, Advantage, and Din- ension chassis and parts. A never been used Zenith S-100 buss machine, never opened software applications packages, old technical manuals, add-on cards and devices, and oddball stuff you probably never thought you would see again. I also have a score of Televideo terminals. I may have some serial cabling and I have A LOAD of Full Height Floppy Disk drives. If you will find them a good home, you can have them but you must pick them up. The cache is located near Indianapolis and I will be returning to the area from my home in Florida in June of this year. If you have a FULL size van and removed the second and third row of seats, you could likely get all the chassis and software packed in. If you want the parts and the terminals, better bring a panel truck. You will have to help me sort them out of the HUGE stash of equipment I have in the garage and office. _____________________________________________________ OLD-COMPUTERS.COM Collectors Mailing =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Mar 18 13:50:31 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:50:31 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703181737.NAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> <200703181737.NAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200703181450.31551.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 18 March 2007 13:35, der Mouse wrote: > > Of course the answer is that a violin made in 1720 is every bit as > > useful as it was when it was new; something that can't be said for > > an old computer. > > Depends on your definition of "useful". Old computers still do > everything they ever did (well, unless they need repair - but the same > could be said of violins). It's user expectations that have changed. > > Not that this alleviates the problem, which is that old computers are > *seen as* less useful than they were when new.... Whether or not they're "less useful" is a matter of perspective... And just because something is less useful doesn't mean it's useless. And there's a difference between computers and other things, like musical instruments (or even cars). A musical instrument from 40 years ago can still play music that's put out today. A 40 year old car can drive on a road that was just laid yesterday. A computer from 40 years ago won't run nearly any software that's being written today. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 13:55:39 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:55:39 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703161150r1db42014p28d47d024143fcfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> <f4eb766f0703161150r1db42014p28d47d024143fcfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <d1a1bf0c0703181155yddc80bek7c512e8ea0dfe41f@mail.gmail.com> On 3/16/07, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > On 3/16/07, Sean Conner <spc at conman.org> wrote: > > I've used DECAFBAD as part of a user-defined MAC address (as > > DECAFBAD01)---nice thing about it was---it set the correct bits in the MAC > > address (single station, user defined address). > > Nice one. The canonical replacement MAC address for an old Sun > workstation with a dead NVRAM (for those that forgot to write the > vendor-assigned MAC address down before the battery died ;-) is 8 20 > 0 c0 ff ee (the first half being one of Sun's reserved 24-bit > prefixes). Hmm... the Sun prefix is 08:00:20, so to be correct it'd be 08:00:20:c0:ff:ee. I've set the MAC address of several Sun machines to that, following the excellent guides on squirrel.org. Ed. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Mar 18 14:10:23 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:10:23 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <d1a1bf0c0703181155yddc80bek7c512e8ea0dfe41f@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> <f4eb766f0703161150r1db42014p28d47d024143fcfd@mail.gmail.com> <d1a1bf0c0703181155yddc80bek7c512e8ea0dfe41f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FD8E9F.1060101@oldskool.org> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Hmm... the Sun prefix is 08:00:20, so to be correct it'd be > 08:00:20:c0:ff:ee. I've set the MAC address of several Sun machines to > that, following the excellent guides on squirrel.org. squirrel.org appears empty -- what guides are you referring to? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Mar 18 14:14:48 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:14:48 -0500 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <20070318171833.60528.qmail@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070318141352.0c3e5d08@localhost> At 10:18 AM 3/18/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Well, I was tinkering around with my ASR33 today, and >I must have supplied a little too much loop current to > >I immediately assumed that I must have blown up one of > >What is a suitable replacement for CR2? It's hard to >read seeming as though it is missing a chunk. CR1 >looks to be the same - but I read it as a 1N4smudge3, >which is rather hard to cross reference. I found the No expert am I, but why not 1N4003 ? Seems a common enough part, right? >-Ian ----- 732. [Maturity] Maturity is often more absurd than youth and very frequently is most unjust to youth. --Thomas A. Edison --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Mar 18 14:18:08 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:18:08 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> Hex Star wrote: > Well I am a teen... :P ...no one has to take me seriously, but if one gave > me a chance they'd see that I'm telling the truth... Being a teen, you will indeed have to work a bit to gain some respect. However, I hope you continue to work at it, since it is rare that someone would take an interest in hardware older than them. There is a curmudgeon-y vibe to most old computer restorers; they make things available online, but get mad when people leech the entire site. I don't understand that mentality, because doing so ensures another offline backup. Saying that people should only take one or two things as needed doesn't help when the site suddenly goes away due to illness or death, especially if it was the only repository for certain things. There will never be one giant repository for this stuff, so it is vital everyone mirror what they can. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Mar 18 14:20:58 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:20:58 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45FD911A.60500@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > "Which level of Lode-Runner had a missing section of ladder that made that > level impossible?" Which platform?? I believe my platform's version was 100% completable. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 18 14:22:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:22:34 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > So whatdya say, is there any interest? > (lotsa room for discussion here) I'm likely too busy today to even do more than skim-read the list, but put me down as very much interested :) I should get a chance tomorrow to read all the messages properly... cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 15:06:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:06:05 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703181306q35892d2cpde5cbb63fb137c@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: > Hex Star wrote: > > Well I am a teen... :P ...no one has to take me seriously, but if one gave > > me a chance they'd see that I'm telling the truth... > > Being a teen, you will indeed have to work a bit to gain some respect. I agree, but it _is_ possible. I've mentioned numerous time that my first classic machine was a PDP-8/L, but I don't always mention that I was 16 when I bought it. I found myself hanging out with college-age guys and older as I tried to learn what I could about 12-bit computing in an 8-bit hobby scene. > However, I hope you continue to work at it, since it is rare that > someone would take an interest in hardware older than them. My first PDP-8 was 2 years younger than I was at the time. I landed a pair of Straight-8s (which are older than I am) two year later. I can definitely encourage folks to cut the younger members of the hobby some slack - I remember what it was like to always be the youngest guy in the room. They are entrenched and crusty, you are enthralled and just learning - not always a productive combination. Fortunately, there always seems to be someone who's willing to break the ice. -ethan From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 15:06:06 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:06:06 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703181306m2299ba58v416c1749ede3f85c@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: > > > There is a curmudgeon-y vibe to most old computer restorers; they make > things available online, but get mad when people leech the entire site. > I don't understand that mentality, because doing so ensures another > offline backup. Saying that people should only take one or two things > as needed doesn't help when the site suddenly goes away due to illness > or death, especially if it was the only repository for certain things. > > There will never be one giant repository for this stuff, so it is vital > everyone mirror what they can. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > Exactly, that is my point that these people with their archives unfortunately don't seem to understand and is the very reason why I want to backup the files :-( ...like there's one archive that has many many GBs of stuff, but the server is in asia and thus download speeds are slow and to make matters worse they have many levels of folders and have disallowed downloading of whole folders which means anyone who wants to download the many GBs of rare mac software in the archive will have to do so by hand one by one at a max of 40 kbps...and one would have to sit at the computer as well because they boot anyone who is marked inactive...*sigh*...and it just saddens me because there is at least 40GB or so of rare mac stuff on the server but they make it so hard to get to because they have the belief that you should only get what you need at the time...but all it takes is for the owner to get tired of running the server and *poof!* there goes all the many GBs of rare mac files and they don't seem to care (they do say there are a couple who did it by hand including one moderator who said that it took many many months to do...but even so that moderator is hardly ever on and it is unknown who the other people are or if they even really have access to those people to get a backup from them when the time comes, if I was given a full backup of everything on the server I'd gladly give them my phone # to call me if they needed my backup at any time so I and they would know that I could restore the files at a moments notice instead of relying on some somebodies somewhere)...I think people just get full of themselves because they have files others want and so they let their ego get in their way thus preventing them from making easy access to the files for the good of keeping them around For peet sakes these aren't common day files people! Therfore the more backups of 'em there are the better! But perhaps there is hope for getting those mac files...does anyone have experience coding a hotline client? An idea would be to hack an open source one to always tell the server the user is active, and to instead of rely on the server for folder downloading, the client would create the folders and download the files itself, moving through the folders by sending the commands to the server that would be sent as if it was a actual user moving through the folders and files so that the stupid server side restriction could be bypassed...this would be for the good of the mac community, it would be a backup and would be availible to anyone who requests the files to be uploaded at any time, if you have experience coding a hotline client please help (contacting off list may be most appropiate for this)! :-( From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Mar 18 14:11:00 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com><af4d09740703180956s780e4d44ke83452f41a86a102@mail.gmail.com> <45FD8422.5040602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004a01c76991$2ae95e60$0701a8c0@win2000> > James Rice wrote: > > > > > Actually TGI Fridays may have beat us to that idea. One of our local > > Friday's has a mint condition TRS-80 CoCo 1 hanging on the wall along > > with a > > lot of other 1980's memorabilia. > Dead 5 1/4 floppies hung on the wall where I worked in the 1980's. > > > James > > I seen numerous cubicles wallpapered with CD's. Mostly AOL freebees and MS developer updates. Nothing of any value ;-) See ya, SteveRob From pechter at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 15:21:17 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:21:17 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> One of the differences between old violins and old computers is the Violin software (music) is free. Try to get a legal license to the software for a VAX and you'll pay big $$$. (Non-hobbyest) There's a lot of pre-copyright software for old classical instruments... Not for old classical computers 8-(. I'd love to get a VMS condist to run my Vaxstation on earlier revs of software -- but the best I can do is the hobbyest distrib... and I'm damned glad I could get that. CP/M is kind of available -- but try to get Basic80 or Bascom for it today... Or the Fortran compiler from Microsoft... The problem that keeps some of these boxes from usefulness is the cost of software and abandonware. -- Bill On 3/18/07, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > So whatdya say, is there any interest? > > (lotsa room for discussion here) > > I'm likely too busy today to even do more than skim-read the list, but put > me > down as very much interested :) I should get a chance tomorrow to read > all > the messages properly... > > cheers > > Jules > > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Mar 18 15:36:08 2007 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Source for 1Mx1 DIP DRAM Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703181634460.7117@monarch.fast.net> I'm looking for (32) 1Mx1 120ns DRAM chips to populate an Amiga memory board. Is there a more rational source than eBay? Steve -- From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 15:43:55 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:43:55 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk> <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703181343wb34fc7ds4a0fe80f9bd8cd57@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone here speak Russian? ;-) Perhaps someone here could create a central classiccmp.org paypal account and we could all donate to it to pay for monthly fees for hosting which someone could get for us...then the hosting or server could have http/ftp access to an archive (but non writable), as well as a ftp account for uploads...the idea I have is to have the upload account be such that people can upload but not delete to prevent tampering with the uploads others put up...I don't know how that's done with linux permissions but an option aside from permissions would be to setup a cron job to every minute or so move the contents of the upload folder to a incoming folder that's accessible from the public http and ftp side The Russian comment is that if someone here does speak russian it would be possible to get Russian hosting in Russia which would prevent us from having to deal with US copyright issues and thus be able to upload whatever we want should some hosting actually get setup, I have 20GB+ of mac files I'd be willing to upload to the archive :-) From james.rice at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 15:44:26 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:44:26 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <004a01c76991$2ae95e60$0701a8c0@win2000> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> <af4d09740703180956s780e4d44ke83452f41a86a102@mail.gmail.com> <45FD8422.5040602@jetnet.ab.ca> <004a01c76991$2ae95e60$0701a8c0@win2000> Message-ID: <af4d09740703181344y21e15185s8017b4645af6932d@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Steve Robertson <steerex at mindspring.com> wrote: > > > James Rice wrote: > > > > > > > > Actually TGI Fridays may have beat us to that idea. One of our local > > > Friday's has a mint condition TRS-80 CoCo 1 hanging on the wall along > > > with a > > > lot of other 1980's memorabilia. > > Dead 5 1/4 floppies hung on the wall where I worked in the 1980's. > > > > > James > > > > > I seen numerous cubicles wallpapered with CD's. Mostly AOL freebees and MS > developer updates. Nothing of any value ;-) > > See ya, SteveRob > > I've seen several office with various motherboard fastened on the wall and one of my friends has a cpu chip collection mounted in a shadow box frame. My geek art display on my office walls is limited to a selection of NeXT, Sparcstation and Apple launch posters and a set of NeXT patent drawings all nicely framed. My boss gets a little OCD and won't allow display of hardware mounted to a wall unless it's framed properly. I'm amazed that she allows my framed posters and not some company purchased flowers or fake watercolors. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 15:46:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:46:46 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk>, <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FD42C6.1751.86EF982@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2007 at 16:21, Bill Pechter wrote: > One of the differences between old violins and old computers is the Violin > software (music) is free. Ever try renting an orchestra score? It's not cheap--and even the things that are public domain are usually available as rental-only. If you want to rent something really current (like 40 years old), say the books for "West Side Story", be prepared to have cash and estimated attendance figures ready. You'd be surprised how little music is "free". Even works that were written 150 years ago are often available only in newer (read: copyrighted) editions. Anent this business of free music, I note that RIAA is now going after web sites with unlicensed fake books. Copyright is copyright-- and there's no such notion as "abandonware" in music. If a work is P.O.P., you're out of luck--you'd better not get caught copying someone else's copy. Music also has an interesting twist that software has--attendant rights such as performance, mechanical reproduction, arrangement, etc. Just because you bought the sheet music legally doesn't mean you can perform it in public. Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Sun Mar 18 16:08:04 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:08:04 -0400 Subject: OS/2 Warp 4 disk image needed Message-ID: <C2232274.1920%rcini@optonline.net> All: I?m trying to resurrect a copy of OS/2 Warp 4 and I seem to have a bad disk image. Does anyone have an image of Disk 17 that they can send me? Also, does anyone know how many floppy disks Warp 4 contains? I?m afraid that the damaged archive is truncated so I don?t know how many images I might have had in it. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 16:22:45 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:22:45 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45FD8E9F.1060101@oldskool.org> References: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> <f4eb766f0703161150r1db42014p28d47d024143fcfd@mail.gmail.com> <d1a1bf0c0703181155yddc80bek7c512e8ea0dfe41f@mail.gmail.com> <45FD8E9F.1060101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <d1a1bf0c0703181422j167e85fep93e3d03f434a20f0@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: > listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > Hmm... the Sun prefix is 08:00:20, so to be correct it'd be > > 08:00:20:c0:ff:ee. I've set the MAC address of several Sun machines to > > that, following the excellent guides on squirrel.org. > > squirrel.org appears empty It does indeed. *bangs head on desk* That'll teach me not to check a URL I think I can remember ... > what guides are you referring to? http://www.squirrel.com/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html and its fellows. Ed. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 18 16:37:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:37:05 -0600 Subject: govliq: 2 paper tape readers (Mechanicsburg, PA) Message-ID: <E1HT33p-00029u-00@xmission.xmission.com> <http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1161585&convertTo=USD> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 18 15:11:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:11:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Gee, nobody has talked about the ASR33 in a while... In-Reply-To: <20070318035304.81496.qmail@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Mar 17, 7 08:53:04 pm Message-ID: <m1HT1ip-000J12C@p850ug1> > > Well, as I reorganize and clean, I managed to > sidetrack myself from the aforementioned cleaning by > playing with my ASR33 TeleType. I have it working > properly, and it prints and types correctly - although > I have never managed to interface it to anything. I > remember a year ago, trying some quickie kludge I > found on the 'net, and having it not work. I am > struggling to remember what I thought I used to know > about TeleType interfaces. Correct me if I'm wrong: > > The teletype's serial output is compatible with RS232 > at the protocol level, and since it's a 33, it's ASCII > too. Yep. It's 110 baud, 8 bits, 2 stop bits. AFAIK all Model 33s ignore the high bit when printing, punch all 8 bits on the tape, read and transmit all 8 bits from the reader. There are 2 versions of the keyboard, one always sends the top bit as a 0, the other sends it as an even parity bit. > > The TeleType is a passive device with a 20ma current > loop interface. In order to work, it needs a loop It can either be a 20mA or 60mA loop, depending on a jumper setting IIRC. > current source (I had to use a 9v radio battery for > testing) > > The signal levels, being 20ma current loop, are NOT > compatible directly with RS232C. That being said, it's > seemingly possible in some circumstances to interface > the two with a diode and a resistor and have it work. Well, I'd use a little more than that :-) > > > In interfacing this thing, I basically want to be able > to construct a simple device that 1) supplies loop > current, 2) optically isolates the current loop from > the RS232 host, and 3) provides proper RS232 signal > levels (MAX232, what a wonderful little chip) so that > I can connect it to whatever without worrying about > blowing up the transceivers. Seems reasonable. It's been done many times, BTW. I've built several devices to do the rerse (that is, to use an RS232 terminal on a host that expects a current loop interface) > > I should be able to scrounge up some optoisolators, I > know I have MAX232's and I should have no trouble > constructing a simple, transformer based power supply > to supply power for both the MAX232 and the loop > current. But, I have forgotten some key elements, such DOn't forget if you isolate the data lines with optoisolators, you also need sapearate PSUs for the loop side and the RS232 side. Using one transformer with 2 secondary windings would be fine, I think. > as I don't know what an acceptable voltage is to > supply the loops, and although I remember reading that > the RX and TX used different amounts of juice, I don't The transmitter side of a Model 33 is just an array of switch contacts (including the carbon brush contacts on the distributor disk, of course). It's pretty easy to deal with. > remember the specs, and lastly - AC or DC loops? DC, > right? What's an acceptable way to create loop current Oh yes, it's certainly DC > without driving something too hard or blowing > something up? Also, my TeleType manual doesn't appear > to have information on what screw terminals do what on > the terminal strip at the back of the machine - I You want the scehamtics. I think they're on Bitsavers, there's also the HP version over on hpmuseum.net. BTW, IIRC, there's 115V mains on 2 of those terminals. Just waiting to zap you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 18 15:23:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:23:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <20070318171833.60528.qmail@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Mar 18, 7 10:18:33 am Message-ID: <m1HT1v4-000J16C@p850ug1> > What is a suitable replacement for CR2? It's hard to > read seeming as though it is missing a chunk. CR1 > looks to be the same - but I read it as a 1N4smudge3, > which is rather hard to cross reference. I found the If it's a little black cylinder with a white/grey band at one end, about 6mm long and 2.5mm in diameter, it might be a 1N4003. That's a very common rectifier diode in Europe. The last digit encodes the PIV, for most applications a 1N4007 (the most common one) is fine. -tony From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 18 16:44:46 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:44:46 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703181013.l2IAD80k014691@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703182144.l2ILie3l021005@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Once the content of those diskettes of yours are placed into a > > repository, that content would be protected against loss to the > > community. Yes, the physical disks would remain at risk, and you > > should take whatever measures you feel are appropriate for them, > > as you would any other item of significance in your estate. > > Ah, but there's the rub in some cases. While the content may be > interesting, the physical media may well be more important. For > example, old Drivetec/Kodak disks and drives are more interesting for > archival purposes than their contents. Agreed, which makes them physical artifacts, and therefore outside of the scope of the project I am describing which is focused on the software. I'm not discounting the importance of the physical media, in fact I place a fairly high importance on preserving original media, however I see that as a different endevor than the archive I describe. Preservation of unique physical media is no different than any other antique - the individual piece has some intrinsic value which is attributable entirely to it's physical presense, condition, rarity etc. If You have just come into possession of an ultra rare system, and after months/years of searching have manged to find a single boot disk for it... Would you rather that disk be: A: A physically mint factory original that was reformatted and used for personal data (ie: no trace of the original software). B: A homemade backup copy of the boot disk that works perfectly. The answer of course depends on what you plan to do with the system - if you are going to put it behind glass so that people can look at it, then A is your answer. If you want to bring it to life and experience what it was like to actually use the system, then B wins. Both requirements need to be addressed, however the A requirement is pretty much tied to the physical medium, and therefore cannot benefit from group effort. I suppose we could all get together and build a climate controller warehouse ... but why stop at media, why not provide storage of everyone's collection. The answer of course is that we don't have the resources for such an undertaking, and even if we did, geographical separation would make it impractical. The B requirement however can benefit greatly from group effort. Instead of sitting around mourning the loss of Dons archive, we could coordinate our energy into building a data/code resources that would lasts - thats all I'm saying. > This is stuff that I've collected as a normal part of business--I've > mentioned before that I'm not a collector, so it's unlikely that I'm > going to expend much effort trying to preserve this material. And my > estate will be less interested. As noted above, being the holder of the physical artifacts, it's up to you to take whatever measures (if any) you feel are appropriate. > Please note that this is not to denigrate your original observations > or statements, but rather to point out that potentially valuable > items to collectors are often just so much flotsam to the rest of the > world. > > And that's what will cause a lot of artifacts to pass from this world > into the landfill. Very well said, and completely true. But we can do something about the material that we are currently holding. Code is unique in that it was designed from the get-go to be readable by a computer - hence it's less difficult to archive than other mediums that we value enough to build into archives. Once the right equipment is set up, it's much easier to image a disk than it is to scan a book (esp. a bound book). > I was thinking about why there are plenty of centuries-old violins > and other musical instruments around (I play a tuba that's nearing > the century mark and it's probably worth at least as much as it was > when it was new) while computers seem to be disappearing into the > bowels of the earth at a fast clip. Of course the answer is that a > violin made in 1720 is every bit as useful as it was when it was new; > something that can't be said for an old computer. It's not just that - We have an entire industry dedicated to convincing everyone that computers built as recently as one year ago is usless and obsolete. How can we expect anyone to appreciate systems that don't even look like the publics general perception of a computer. I sometimes get invited to bring systems from my collection to local schools to show the students some of the history of computing. I can still recall the first time I did this, not knowing what to expect, I took an Altair, set it all up, and gave a demonstration of how you could toggle in code from the front panel, how to execute the bootstrap ROM to bring up an OS from floppy disk, how you could communicated with it via an ADM3A terminal, and capped of the demo with a quick peek at some text based games... When I asked if there were any questions, this little guy stood up and came up to the front of the room. He slowly looked over the entire system, ran his gaze over the blinkin lights and then the terminal, finally he turned to me and asked: "Why did anyone ever want a computer that wasn't any good?" > A lot of old brass and percussion instruments end up as decorator > items, hung on walls and whatnot. A friend recovered two fairly > expensive (>$30K each) Italian violins from the walls of the local > American Legion hall. An old Civil-War era saxhorn that had been > made into a lamp found its way to eBay recently and went for a couple > of thousand, even with a couple of holes bored in it--a restorer will > eventually bring it back to playable condition. > > I'd rather see an old bombardon have a hole bored through to bell to > hang on a wall than see it get melted down as scrap. > > This is sort of a wacky idea, but since old computers generally have > less utility as computers to people, how about encouraging their use > as decor? That might keep them preserved longer. :-) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 18 16:46:13 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:46:13 -0400 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <m1HT1v4-000J16C@p850ug1> References: <m1HT1v4-000J16C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <323CCA45-3F38-441C-8834-414CCED2C369@neurotica.com> On Mar 18, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> What is a suitable replacement for CR2? It's hard to >> read seeming as though it is missing a chunk. CR1 >> looks to be the same - but I read it as a 1N4smudge3, >> which is rather hard to cross reference. I found the > > If it's a little black cylinder with a white/grey band at one end, > about > 6mm long and 2.5mm in diameter, it might be a 1N4003. That's a very > common rectifier diode in Europe. The last digit encodes the PIV, for > most applications a 1N4007 (the most common one) is fine. The 1N400x series is very common here in the US as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 18 16:49:25 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:49:25 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703181450.31551.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200703181737.NAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200703182149.l2ILnIYW021774@hosting.monisys.ca> > Whether or not they're "less useful" is a matter of perspective... > > And just because something is less useful doesn't mean it's useless. > > And there's a difference between computers and other things, like musical > instruments (or even cars). A musical instrument from 40 years ago can > still play music that's put out today. A 40 year old car can drive on a > road that was just laid yesterday. A computer from 40 years ago won't > run nearly any software that's being written today. There's also the issue of it being recognized, and people identifying with it - I often see antique telephones, spinning wheels, butter churns, floor radios and whatnot - people know what these things are, and deem them "valuable antiques". The computer had a much narrower audience, and unless you "were there", an S-100 crate or an early PET simply doesn't mean anything to you, let alone earlier DEC stuff ... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Mar 18 16:48:35 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:48:35 -0400 Subject: Source for 1Mx1 DIP DRAM In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703181634460.7117@monarch.fast.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703181634460.7117@monarch.fast.net> Message-ID: <45FDB3B3.3020602@atarimuseum.com> You should be able to find them on netcomponents.com Curt Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > I'm looking for (32) 1Mx1 120ns DRAM chips to populate an Amiga memory > board. > > Is there a more rational source than eBay? > > Steve > > From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 18 16:55:34 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:55:34 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703181343wb34fc7ds4a0fe80f9bd8cd57@mail.gmail.com> References: <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200703182155.l2ILtSMa022883@hosting.monisys.ca> > The Russian comment is that if someone here does speak russian it would be > possible to get Russian hosting in Russia which would prevent us from having > to deal with US copyright issues and thus be able to upload whatever we want Just to be clear - I completely disagree with this sentiment. So far, our approach has been to ask nicely where possible, and to take down anything that's posted if a copyright holder objects. My comments regarding possibly not making the archive public were in line with the latter, and finding appropriate ways to preserve material that can't be made public. No matter what "we want", if the owner of material doesn't want it made publically available, we must honor that (and we should honor that). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 18 16:59:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:59:15 -0600 Subject: govliq: Tektronix 4041 disk drive unit (HD/FD) (Elmendorf, AK) Message-ID: <E1HT3PH-0005tD-00@xmission.xmission.com> <http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1161577&convertTo=USD> Looks like it contains a 10 MB hard drive and a 5.25" floppy drive. This connects to the Tektronix 4041 system controller, presumably the main interface is GPIB although the description says RS-232. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From RMeenaks at olf.com Sun Mar 18 17:00:21 2007 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:00:21 -0400 Subject: OS/2 Warp 4 disk image needed References: <C2232274.1920%rcini@optonline.net> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1044@cpexchange.olf.com> I have images which I can upload somewhere. Where should I send it? Ram From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Mar 18 17:04:33 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <m1HT1v4-000J16C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20070318220433.46472.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > If it's a little black cylinder with a white/grey > band at one end, about > 6mm long and 2.5mm in diameter, it might be a > 1N4003. That's a very > common rectifier diode in Europe. The last digit > encodes the PIV, for > most applications a 1N4007 (the most common one) is > fine. > It's actually a little blue cylinder (made of glass), that has a black band on one end. Should have mentioned that before - it looks kinda like a germanium diode, but in the schematic they seem to have it doing rectifier duty. I've got tons of 1N400x's, so I suppose I could try that, it looks like it should work, given the circuit. Did they make glass rectifiers at one point? (non tube, rectifiers, that is...) -Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 18 17:04:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FD911A.60500@oldskool.org> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> <45FD911A.60500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070318150217.Q83236@shell.lmi.net> > > "Which level of Lode-Runner had a missing section of ladder that made that > > level impossible?" On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Which platform?? I believe my platform's version was 100% completable. Mac (but it COULD have been a defective copy) All of the levels between the PC and Mac copy were identical with the exception of one unit of ladder in one of the levels on the Mac copy. Other than that one, every level was easier to complete on the Mac (128K), than on the 5150. From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Mar 18 17:05:16 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:05:16 -0000 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000801c769a9$85d72f10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Bill Pechter wrote: > I'd love to get a VMS condist to run my Vaxstation on earlier revs of > software -- but the best I can do is the hobbyest distrib... and I'm > damned glad I could get that. As an aside, I _believe_ that the Hobbyist licence grants you permission to run any earlier version (under the same terms) and (I also believe) that you can copy the required media (assuming you can find someone who will let you make the copy). You might try asking the hobbyist folk whether that's actually correct these days ... Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/726 - Release Date: 18/03/2007 15:34 From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 18 17:13:53 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:13:53 -0600 Subject: govliq: 7 TS05 tape drives (Mechanicsburg, PA) Message-ID: <E1HT3dR-0005CX-00@xmission.xmission.com> <http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1162695&convertTo=USD> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From allain at panix.com Sun Mar 18 18:15:37 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:15:37 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FC57B7.29737.4D8C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00d101c769b3$5705aa40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > the trust who will be the executor of our estate will simply dumpster it. Putting a clause in ones will sounds like the obvioous solution. "Read the disposal guide I've provided here: ---" Any elaborate care instructions shouldn't be by "unfunded mandate", that is, either have the goods sold off to a classiccmp (and others) announced auction, or have some funds set aside for the purpose of redistribution. Just dumping some workorders on the estate wouldn't get as much a positive acceptance. John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 18 19:13:16 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:13:16 -0800 Subject: OT: Interesting website with Classic Computer feel Message-ID: <p06240836c223846a3304@[192.168.1.199]> OK, this has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with Computers, it's actually the web site of a Indie Band. However, it is interesting in that it feels like an Apple ][. http://www.theraconteurs.com/ Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From james.rice at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 18:20:59 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:20:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Interesting website with Classic Computer feel In-Reply-To: <p06240836c223846a3304@192.168.1.199> References: <p06240836c223846a3304@192.168.1.199> Message-ID: <af4d09740703181620t12220ed2m43035fe42daf9f6b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > OK, this has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with Computers, it's actually > the web site of a Indie Band. However, it is interesting in that it > feels like an Apple ][. http://www.theraconteurs.com/ > > Zane > > > > - I found that one a few months ago. it's Jack White's new band. Cool site effects. i wish I had thought of it first. James -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Mar 18 18:30:29 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 19:30:29 -0400 Subject: OT: Interesting website with Classic Computer feel In-Reply-To: <af4d09740703181620t12220ed2m43035fe42daf9f6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <p06240836c223846a3304@192.168.1.199> <af4d09740703181620t12220ed2m43035fe42daf9f6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FDCB95.3080901@atarimuseum.com> That is a GREAT site design, has an old BBS feel to it. Curt James Rice wrote: > On 3/18/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: >> >> OK, this has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with Computers, it's actually >> the web site of a Indie Band. However, it is interesting in that it >> feels like an Apple ][. http://www.theraconteurs.com/ >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> - > > I found that one a few months ago. it's Jack White's new band. Cool > site > effects. i wish I had thought of it first. > > James > > From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 18 20:36:40 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:36:40 -0500 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density Message-ID: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> Today I stumbled across something that may explain why some people I've corresponded with have had such a hard time getting single-density to work with disk imageing. For my own setup, I have a couple of trusty Aopen AP5T mainboards which do single-density nicely, installed in cases with an internal 3.5" HD (1.44M) drive as A:, and an external cable allowing me to connect any of the following as drive B: - 5.25" DD 40 track (Teac 55-G) - 5.25" DD 80 track (Teac 55-F) - 5.25" HD 80 track (Teac 55-G) - 8" DS (Qumetrack 242) I'm also quite a stickler for using the proper drive when I read/write images - so if it's 5.25" 40 track, the 55-G gets connected etc. This has worked very well for me. Today I was setting up another system to do 5.25" disks only, and I wanted it to be self contained within one case. To minimize the drives, I decided to modify a Panasonic JU-475 with a switch on the front bezel to force it to 300 rpm to serve as both the DD/80 and an HD/80 drive. To verify that the drive was good, I hooked it up and tried to read/write some disks - to my surprise I could not do single density (at 300kbos). Tried a couple other HD drives with the same result. On a hunch, I modded it to 300rpm, and sure enough, I can read/write single-desnity fine at 300rpm / 250kbps. (Yeah, I know the SD rate is really only 1/2 - by 250/300kbps, I am referring to the MFM settings for the AT controller data rate select register). To rule out some odd ImageDisk quirk, I tried several versions of TeleDisk - with the drive at 360rpm and configured as a 1.2M HD drive, none of them could read a single-density disk either. So at least for my AP5Ts, it appears that the internal controller can do single or double density at 250kbps, but only double- density at the "at compatible" 360rpm rate of 300kbps. My guess is that the data separator does not work at that rate (works fine at 500kbps however). I'm curious to know if this is a charactistic specific to the machines I am using, or if it is common among PCs that do single- density to not work at 300kbps. Has anyone here read and/or created single density 5.25" disk on a 1.2M HD drive spinning at 360rpm? Regards, Dave PS: I've added a note to the ImageDisk help file and manual about this (that you may need a DD drive to do single-density), and I've also put up a brief page describing the modifications I made to add the speed switch to the Panasonic drive on my images page. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 18 20:43:37 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:43:37 -0500 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703190143.l2J1hURJ002548@hosting.monisys.ca> > an external cable allowing me to connect any of the > following as drive B: > - 5.25" DD 40 track (Teac 55-G) > - 5.25" DD 80 track (Teac 55-F) > - 5.25" HD 80 track (Teac 55-G) > - 8" DS (Qumetrack 242) That first one should read "(Teac 55-B)" Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 18 20:46:37 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070318184356.X83236@shell.lmi.net> Trivial typo nit-picking for clarity: On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > - 5.25" DD 40 track (Teac 55-G) 55-B ? > I'm also quite a stickler for using the proper drive when > I read/write images - so if it's 5.25" 40 track, the 55-G > gets connected etc. This has worked very well for me. 55-B ? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Mar 18 21:11:56 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 19:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <20070318220433.46472.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070319021156.59248.qmail@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I replaced the broken diode with a 1n4004 - looking at the circuit, I see no reason why it wouldn't work, it's just serving as a rectifier. No change in the operation of the teletype, it still doesn't run open/rattle like it's supposed to. I did some poking around and found that the device at CR5 was shorted. According to the teletype manual, CR5 is a 100A varistor. Now, how I managed to blow that up with a 12v DC plugpack is beyond me if it's rated for 100A, but still, it was shorted. Removing it from the circuit restores the normal operation. It rattles in line mode, and works like a typewriter/tape punch in local mode. Touching the RX lines together in line mode makes it stop rattling, and tapping them together can make it print assorted characters. So, I need to replace that varistor - it evidently was there for a reason, and it kept me from blowing up the transistor (no idea where I'd find a replacement for that...) Anyone know a replacement? The only varistors I am familiar with are those flat disc types that are used in power strips as "surge protection". -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 21:24:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 19:24:58 -0700 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45FD920A.32049.9A49723@cclist.sydex.com> Dave, that's very strange. I just went and tried it on one of my "regular" systems, a box with an Intel TC430HX mobo in it. The controller on this board is a National PC87306B (serial/parallel, clock, floppy, IrDA and keyboard) that does just fine with FM. I repeated on another "regular" box with an Intel PD440FX board (uses the NS PD87307) with the same results. In both cases, the drive was a Teac FD55GFR running at 360 RPM. 'Matter of fact, I have to be very careful with the first machine-- it's got a Toshiba 1.44M 3.5" on it that will automatically change spindle speed if a 1.3MB 3.5" diskette is inserted without giving any external indication. In both machines, I coiuld format, write and read 48 and 96 tpi SD formats in the 55GFR. (Those intel 400-series mobos are great because they use the NS Super I/O chip--it's 8473-compatible, which means it'll also handle writing 128-byte MFM sectors, unlike its NEC-based relatives.) I wonder what's up with your setup? Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 18 21:25:36 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:25:36 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game><5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <007201c769cd$e204dc50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > There is a curmudgeon-y vibe to most old computer restorers; they make > things available online, but get mad when people leech the entire site. I > don't understand that mentality, because doing so ensures another offline > backup. Saying that people should only take one or two things as needed > doesn't help when the site suddenly goes away due to illness or death, > especially if it was the only repository for certain things. That is patently RUDE and the epitome of inconsiderate. Perhaps some DOLT leeching the entire site causes them to be shut down by their provider due to bandwidth. Perhaps some selfabsorbed arrogant miscreant sucking down the entire site, costs this guy a sudden $200 bill that he wasn't expecting due to bandwidth. How RUDE not to respect the site owners wishes. Let me give you a good analogy. Lets say I have a desk in the basement that's an antique. I want to give it to a good home. So I put it out in the front lawn saying "Free to a good home". You then take the desk. And all my lawn furniture. And the garden lights from the planters. Your argument is "oh, you put it all outside your house so of course I can take it all". When someone puts up files and "gets mad because you take too many"... you are basically forgetting you are a guest in their virtual home. Someone offers you a piece of pie and you take the whole thing. Attitudes like that are why SOME people don't PUT files online. The key here is permission. If you ask the owner and get permission to get backup..you argue your case and he agrees - fantastic. But if he doesn't agree for any reason at all - you do not have the "right" to take everything you want because you feel you need a copy of it. Sorry, touched a nerve. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 18 21:29:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:29:26 -0500 Subject: Fwd: large vanload of NorthStar equipment offered References: <E1HT0JU-0005Pr-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <008b01c769ce$6a431870$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > Well apparently the attachment didn't come through... > > So here it is inline. Please respond to the original poster directly > and not to me. FYI - Here (like the vast majority of mailing lists), attachments are not allowed... they're frowned upon, and automatically scrubbed by the list server. We're certainly interested in hearing about gear available, but attachments aren't the way to do it. If you can, just post the text of the message - or just ask to be contacted off-list :) Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 21:35:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 19:35:34 -0700 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <20070319021156.59248.qmail@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <20070318220433.46472.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <20070319021156.59248.qmail@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45FD9486.13075.9AE4ADD@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2007 at 19:11, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > So, I need to replace that varistor - it evidently was > there for a reason, and it kept me from blowing up the > transistor (no idea where I'd find a replacement for > that...) Anyone know a replacement? The only varistors > I am familiar with are those flat disc types that are > used in power strips as "surge protection". Take a look here: http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/MA.pdf You can toast a varistor if you apply a voltage and current that's nigher than its specified ratings. That 100A rating is only good for something less than about 25 usec; if an overvoltage persists for longer periods, you can take the MOV out with substantially less current. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Mar 18 22:28:12 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:28:12 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070318150217.Q83236@shell.lmi.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> <45FD911A.60500@oldskool.org> <20070318150217.Q83236@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45FE034C.9060706@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > Other than that one, every level was easier to complete on the Mac (128K), > than on the 5150. Why? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Mar 18 22:37:38 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:37:38 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 5:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) > So whatdya say, is there any interest? Well, I've got some disk space and a netlink. I wouldn't mind holding a few gigs of data, either exported to the world via FTP, exported to classiccmp, exported to just archive maintainer staff, exported to no-one, whatever seems best. ------ And mirrored at several locations is a good idea From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Mar 18 22:44:24 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:44:24 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <007201c769cd$e204dc50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game><5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <007201c769cd$e204dc50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45FE0718.2010403@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Perhaps some DOLT leeching the entire site causes them to be shut down > by their provider due to bandwidth. Perhaps some selfabsorbed arrogant > miscreant sucking down the entire site, costs this guy a sudden $200 > bill that he wasn't expecting due to bandwidth. How RUDE not to respect > the site owners wishes. 1. If the person didn't want to share the files, then why are they up on the 'net in the first place? 2. QoS has been around for over a decade, both software and hardware. Put bandwidth controls on your stuff if you fear it will cost you money. My FTP server limits to 16KB/s because I pay for my bandwidth. 3. Not everyone has to host their files on a plan that will cost them crazy money if abused. There are $8/month plans with gigabytes of space and bandwidth that will automatically throttle if abused (or shut off temporarily if exhausted, then re-enable at the next billing cycle). > Let me give you a good analogy. Lets say I have a desk in the basement > that's an antique. I want to give it to a good home. So I put it out in > the front lawn saying "Free to a good home". > > You then take the desk. And all my lawn furniture. And the garden lights > from the planters. Your argument is "oh, you put it all outside your > house so of course I can take it all". That analogy doesn't make any sense and isn't mappable to a file archive/repository. > Sorry, touched a nerve. Sorry, but you still haven't proven your point. See points #1-#3 above, especially #2 (which I am surprised you are ignoring, especially given that you run an ISP). QoS solves the cost problem, at which point there aren't any problems left. Offering files online for the good of the community, then putting arbitrary limits on access, doesn't make sense. You either want to help people, or you don't. I administered a multi-gigabyte archive on ftp.cdrom.com from 1994 to 1998, and a Tandy archive from 1998 to present, and I have never ever once told people they couldn't mirror. What if I get hit by a bus tomorrow and the archives disappear? All my work (gathering, organizing, etc.) would have been for naught! Hasn't anyone learned anything from the Don Maslin incident? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 18 22:55:52 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Interesting website with Classic Computer feel In-Reply-To: <p06240836c223846a3304@[192.168.1.199]> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Mar 18, 7 04:13:16 pm" Message-ID: <200703190355.l2J3tqTt012184@floodgap.com> > OK, this has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with Computers, it's actually > the web site of a Indie Band. However, it is interesting in that it > feels like an Apple ][. http://www.theraconteurs.com/ Looks more like a modified Commodore font, actually ... -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's lonely at the top, but the food is better. ---------------------------- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 18 22:50:30 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/40 videos In-Reply-To: <45FD8E9F.1060101@oldskool.org> References: <45F9D127.2090102@shiresoft.com> <45F97BDF.12220.2A9004@cclist.sydex.com> <45FA522C.3080502@oldskool.org> <20070316183233.GA18806@linus.groomlake.area51> <f4eb766f0703161150r1db42014p28d47d024143fcfd@mail.gmail.com> <d1a1bf0c0703181155yddc80bek7c512e8ea0dfe41f@mail.gmail.com> <45FD8E9F.1060101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200703190356.XAA23928@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Hmm... the Sun prefix is 08:00:20, so to be correct it'd be >> 08:00:20:c0:ff:ee. I've set the MAC address of several Sun machines >> to that, following the excellent guides on squirrel.org. Of course, you can't use more than one such machine per broadcast domain. You can also use locally-administered MAC addresses; I have a Sun whose NVRAM-stored MAC address is 02:ff:8e:40:7c:f9 (the 02 bit in the first octet indicates "locally administered MAC space", the ff is a disambiguator because I use mechanically-generated 02:00: MACs for other purposes, and the other four octets came straight from /dev/random; I could have used fe: plus five random octets, but didn't feel the need to bother). I did this because the machine came to me with a flat battery and no indication of what its MAC used to be. > squirrel.org appears empty -- what guides are you referring to? That appears to have been a mistake on the part of the person who wrote it. My saved copies came from squirrel.com (not .org), text at http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq with an HTMLized version at http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html both of which were live when I checked while writing this mail. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 18 22:58:28 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 18, 7 02:18:08 pm" Message-ID: <200703190358.l2J3wSEG012506@floodgap.com> > There is a curmudgeon-y vibe to most old computer restorers; they make > things available online, but get mad when people leech the entire site. > I don't understand that mentality, because doing so ensures another > offline backup. Saying that people should only take one or two things > as needed doesn't help when the site suddenly goes away due to illness > or death, especially if it was the only repository for certain things. I will be happy to backup your site, over and over, repeatedly, every single file, to make sure that your site will never go down. I will also ask all my friends to do so. That way we will all have a backup. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't Be Evil. -- Paul Buchheit -------------------------------------------- From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:09:13 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:09:13 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Geoff Reed <geoffr at zipcon.net> wrote: > > > > > > ------ > > And mirrored at several locations is a good idea > > > > > I wonder...anyone friends with a high up person at sourceforge.net? Or maybe we could all express interest in utilizing their mirrors for preserving vintage mac files? Who knows...you guys wanna all post to a ticket to show them that there's some real interest in using their mirrors to preserve vintage mac files? Perhaps if they see there's some real interest and demand they'll allow it...worth a try at least...so who's in? :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 18 23:10:18 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FE034C.9060706@oldskool.org> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> <45FD911A.60500@oldskool.org> <20070318150217.Q83236@shell.lmi.net> <45FE034C.9060706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070318210613.D97408@shell.lmi.net> [Lode-Runner] > > Other than that one, every level was easier to complete on the Mac (128K), > > than on the 5150. On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Why? It was slightly slower on the Mac than on the 5150. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Mar 18 23:15:07 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:15:07 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <007201c769cd$e204dc50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45FE0718.2010403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <005d01c769dd$2d8ef160$0b01a8c0@game> If you want a mirror it would be nice just to ask the owner for a DVD set of the data which takes little time and doesn't hog bandwidth from others who just want a few files. I ran a private FTP during the later 90's when cable 1st came around in my area. I never cared if people connected and downloaded what was on the site as long as they didn't use software that logged in multiple times to suck down all the bandwidth from the other users, and didn't hammer the site every second to get on when the slots were full. Everybody is different and you need to respect their rules. From james.rice at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:21:34 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:21:34 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator> <5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <af4d09740703182121m1acff7c4uc25c48a621c83784@mail.gmail.com> > > And mirrored at several locations is a good idea > > > That is a problem we all share. I'm hosting a mirror of the NeXT archive from Peanuts. I got permission and archived it before it went down. It (Peanuts not mine) has been up and down intermittently in the past few years. As far as I know, mine and the mirror at ftp.nice.ch are the last two most complete archives of Peanuts publicly available on the net. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From james.rice at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:25:09 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:25:09 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <005d01c769dd$2d8ef160$0b01a8c0@game> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <007201c769cd$e204dc50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45FE0718.2010403@oldskool.org> <005d01c769dd$2d8ef160$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <af4d09740703182125u2f708b0cgcbe40726c2e7bd6@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > If you want a mirror it would be nice just to ask the owner for a DVD set > of > the data which takes little time and doesn't hog bandwidth from others who > just want a few files. > > I ran a private FTP during the later 90's when cable 1st came around in my > area. I never cared if people connected and downloaded what was on the > site > as long as they didn't use software that logged in multiple times to suck > down all the bandwidth from the other users, and didn't hammer the site > every second to get on when the slots were full. Everybody is different > and > you need to respect their rules. > > My employer lets me host my site of their bandwidth. I do throttle downloads at 1.8kbps and limit connections to two from any IP address. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 18 23:19:27 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FE0718.2010403@oldskool.org> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game><5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <007201c769cd$e204dc50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45FE0718.2010403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200703190430.AAA04498@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Perhaps some DOLT leeching the entire site causes them to be shut >> down by their provider due to bandwidth. Perhaps some selfabsorbed >> arrogant miscreant sucking down the entire site, costs this guy a >> sudden $200 bill that he wasn't expecting due to bandwidth. How >> RUDE not to respect the site owners wishes. > 1. If the person didn't want to share the files, then why are they up > on the 'net in the first place? Perhaps the person was interested in helping people who actually ahve a need for them, instead of feeding leeches. > 2. QoS has been around for over a decade, both software and hardware. > Put bandwidth controls on your stuff if you fear it will cost you > money. My FTP server limits to 16KB/s because I pay for my > bandwidth. Bully for you. So now it's the victim's fault? I don't have any easy way to place bandwidth limits on my FTP server. If I get hit with a leech who ends up costing me bandwidth overage charges, do you think I'm going to go spend money to keep it from happening again? No; I'm far more likely to either shut it down entirely or just report the abuser to the provider used (and quite likely ban access from that provider in the interim, with the ban made permanent if they don't consider it abuse). I have trouble thinking any of us who run anon FTP sites are likely to react otherwise. I've had the same discussion, basically, with qmail fans. They too seem to think that it's sane to take the stance "I should be able to grab all I want, and if you don't want me to you should make sure I can't". The concept that computers are used by humans and that politeness is important to humans seems completely lost on them. (And yes, I've had to put automated defenses in place against qmail's commonest form of abuse - connection-bombing receiving mailservers.) > 3. Not everyone has to host their files on a plan that will cost them > crazy money if abused. Great. Therefore it's OK to abuse those who don't? Look. It's really quite simple: please respect the archive provider's wishes. If you don't know what they are, either ask or be conservative. Anything else risks destroying the resource you are abusing. >> Sorry, touched a nerve. > Sorry, but you still haven't proven your point. There is nothing to prove. You are asked to not abuse something provided free. You are arguing "you should make it impossible to abuse". True or false, that does not, repeat DOES NOT, excuse your abusing it, or attempting to. > Offering files online for the good of the community, then putting > arbitrary limits on access, doesn't make sense. You either want to > help people, or you don't. If you can't see the difference between helping people and feeding leeches...*boggle* /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 19 00:33:12 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:33:12 -0800 Subject: OT: Interesting website with Classic Computer feel In-Reply-To: <200703190355.l2J3tqTt012184@floodgap.com> References: <200703190355.l2J3tqTt012184@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <p06240838c223cd9859f9@[192.168.1.199]> At 8:55 PM -0700 3/18/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > OK, this has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with Computers, it's actually >> the web site of a Indie Band. However, it is interesting in that it > > feels like an Apple ][. http://www.theraconteurs.com/ > >Looks more like a modified Commodore font, actually ... Hard to say, the green-screen and "menu" makes me think Apple ][ rather than Commodore. Didn't really give any thought to how realistic the font is. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:35:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:35:51 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FD227F.8351.7F0E3ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <003601c76987$aba83ee0$0b01a8c0@game> <45FD227F.8351.7F0E3ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45FE1327.8040300@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The same cannot be said for a C64--or even a VAX. Will computing > ever mature to the point that a 30-year computer will do everything > that a user desires just as well as a brand-new machine will? You're essentially asking whether there's a limit to Moore's Law. That's probably a question that's beyond most peoples' expertise to answer. 8-/ Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:43:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:43:00 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <200703181450.31551.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> <200703181737.NAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200703181450.31551.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45FE14D4.7000709@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > And there's a difference between computers and other things, like musical > instruments (or even cars). A musical instrument from 40 years ago can > still play music that's put out today. A 40 year old car can drive on a > road that was just laid yesterday. A computer from 40 years ago won't > run nearly any software that's being written today. Well, driving a Model A Ford on the German Autobahn might be problematic. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:46:02 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:46:02 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703181306q35892d2cpde5cbb63fb137c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <f4eb766f0703181306q35892d2cpde5cbb63fb137c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FE158A.9020902@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/18/07, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: >> Hex Star wrote: >> > Well I am a teen... :P ...no one has to take me seriously, but if >> one gave >> > me a chance they'd see that I'm telling the truth... >> >> Being a teen, you will indeed have to work a bit to gain some respect. > > I agree, but it _is_ possible. I've mentioned numerous time that my > first classic machine was a PDP-8/L, but I don't always mention that I > was 16 when I bought it. I found myself hanging out with college-age > guys and older as I tried to learn what I could about 12-bit computing > in an 8-bit hobby scene. Indeed. The one sure way of ensuring that people take you seriously is to make yourself worthy of being taken seriously. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:49:33 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:49:33 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703181343wb34fc7ds4a0fe80f9bd8cd57@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk> <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703181343wb34fc7ds4a0fe80f9bd8cd57@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FE165D.3080807@gmail.com> Hex Star wrote: > The Russian comment is that if someone here does speak russian it would be > possible to get Russian hosting in Russia which would prevent us from > having > to deal with US copyright issues and thus be able to upload whatever we > want That implies a systemic desire to avoid valid copyright. That doesn't seem like a good idea. If you don't respect others' copyright, you shouldn't expect anyone to respect yours. I write open-source software. The last thing I would want is for people to be ignoring my licenses wholesale. Peace... Sridhar From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:57:42 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:57:42 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703190430.AAA04498@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <007201c769cd$e204dc50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45FE0718.2010403@oldskool.org> <200703190430.AAA04498@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, der Mouse <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote: > > > > If you can't see the difference between helping people and feeding > leeches...*boggle* > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > I agree with Jim, why is someone uploading big sized files for people to download when at the same time they don't expect to spend lots of monthly bandwidth? That just doesn't make sense...any file archive and just file hosting in general is going to involve investing alot of monthly bandwidth to keep th site going and if someone isn't willing to invest the necessary funds then they shouldn't be hosting the files at all really...putting roadblocks in the way of users interested in the archive just defeats the purpose of having the files up in the first place, to help keep them around and give them to people who need and/or want them...people should be able to get them piece by piece if they want and people should be able to take everything if they want because either way is going to help ensure that the files stay around and don't just disappear and if people want to archive everything then that means that the archive is of value and should be preserved and all the roadblocks do is prevent the archive from being preserved instead causing it to be in a state where at any time it can just go *poof!*...people should either be willing to invest some good money in monthly bandwidth for their archive and not add in stupid roadblocks or they should not publicize their archive at all and instead go my route of uploading the files to people who request it for their archives IMO From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 23:58:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:58:16 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FE1327.8040300@gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FD227F.8351.7F0E3ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <45FE1327.8040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FDB5F8.12675.A30F007@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2007 at 0:35, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > You're essentially asking whether there's a limit to Moore's Law. > That's probably a question that's beyond most peoples' expertise to > answer. 8-/ I don't think I am. Maybe I'm asking if there's a limit to Wirth's Law. It's possible to make autos that go 500 mph, but to do so neither adds utility to our lives (our highways won't accommodate 500 mph traffic) nor value for he consumer (whose reflexes have definite limits). When do we reach the point where added computational power contributes nothing toward the ability to perform the desired function (for home users; commercial users may be a different kettle of fish) given the speed of the network interconnections and the work to be performed using them. I don't think a petaflop system on my desktop would substantially enhance my computing "experience". ...at least not without another major version of Windows. :) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 00:01:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:01:00 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FE14D4.7000709@gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <200703181450.31551.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <45FE14D4.7000709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FDB69C.24112.A337071@cclist.sydex.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > A computer from 40 years ago won't > run nearly any software that's being written today. On the other hand, a computer from today can run software written 40 years ago--and generally, much faster. So where's the utility in keeping the old iron around? OTOH, keeping some of the old peripherals around to read the old media might not be a bad idea. Cheers, Chuck From hexstar at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 00:01:46 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:01:46 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FE165D.3080807@gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk> <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703181343wb34fc7ds4a0fe80f9bd8cd57@mail.gmail.com> <45FE165D.3080807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703182201p53f4523dj56f6ab75f24d5dcd@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > > Hex Star wrote: > > The Russian comment is that if someone here does speak russian it would > be > > possible to get Russian hosting in Russia which would prevent us from > > having > > to deal with US copyright issues and thus be able to upload whatever we > > want > > That implies a systemic desire to avoid valid copyright. That doesn't > seem like a good idea. If you don't respect others' copyright, you > shouldn't expect anyone to respect yours. > > > No problem there, I don't have any copyrighted items I've made :P And the idea isn't to do that just to be ignorant and say "Ha ha!" to the US government agencies/lawyers, the idea would be to do that so that people could upload full versions of vintage software that you once had to pay for without having to worry about some employee coming out of the dead and suing us...it really shouldn't be an issue with software of this age but webspace in Russia would just make this whole copyright deal a non-issue thus meaning we wouldn't have to censure our archives content nor deal with any roundabout ways of distributing the archive such as requiring a free registration From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 19 00:07:55 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:07:55 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk> <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703181343wb34fc7ds4a0fe80f9bd8cd57@mail.gmail.com> <45FE165D.3080807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008f01c769e4$8e31d940$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" <ploopster at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: Re: Don Maslin/Archiving system software > Hex Star wrote: > > The Russian comment is that if someone here does speak russian it would be > > possible to get Russian hosting in Russia which would prevent us from > > having > > to deal with US copyright issues and thus be able to upload whatever we > > want > > That implies a systemic desire to avoid valid copyright. That doesn't > seem like a good idea. If you don't respect others' copyright, you > shouldn't expect anyone to respect yours. > > I write open-source software. The last thing I would want is for people > to be ignoring my licenses wholesale. > > Peace... Sridhar The issue is what do you do if you want Adobe Photoshop 1.0 when the copyright holder does not sell or support that version and the latest will not run on a Mac with 512k RAM. You can wait 10 years and maybe it will show up on ebay, or you can pirate it. What is Adobe doesn't even have the original Photoshop 1.0 code anymore, is it ok to let it fade away because of bitrot? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 19 00:06:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FDB5F8.12675.A30F007@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FD227F.8351.7F0E3ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <45FE1327.8040300@gmail.com> <45FDB5F8.12675.A30F007@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070318220506.L98680@shell.lmi.net> > > You're essentially asking whether there's a limit to Moore's Law. > > That's probably a question that's beyond most peoples' expertise to > > answer. 8-/ On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't think I am. Maybe I'm asking if there's a limit to Wirth's > Law. > ...at least not without another major version of Windows. :) Boyle's law says that Windoze will expand to require all available resources. :-) From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 00:07:06 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> from Hex Star at "Mar 18, 7 09:57:42 pm" Message-ID: <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> > I agree with Jim, why is someone uploading big sized files for people to > download when at the same time they don't expect to spend lots of monthly > bandwidth? That just doesn't make sense...any file archive and just file > hosting in general is going to involve investing alot of monthly bandwidth > to keep th site going and if someone isn't willing to invest the necessary > funds then they shouldn't be hosting the files at all really... So, if that's true, then no one without any large hosting ability shouldn't be hosting any files. I wonder if your collection would be half as big as you claim it to be if this specious principle were in fact reality. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 19 00:18:07 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:18:07 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator> <5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FE1D0F.4090903@mdrconsult.com> Hex Star wrote: > On 3/18/07, Geoff Reed <geoffr at zipcon.net> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> ------ >> >> And mirrored at several locations is a good idea >> >> >> >> >> > I wonder...anyone friends with a high up person at sourceforge.net? Or > maybe > we could all express interest in utilizing their mirrors for preserving > vintage mac files? Who knows...you guys wanna all post to a ticket to show > them that there's some real interest in using their mirrors to preserve > vintage mac files? Perhaps if they see there's some real interest and > demand > they'll allow it...worth a try at least...so who's in? :-) Sourceforge won't touch something like this with a 10-foot pole. A lot of that software and even the documentation are "encumbered". It's copyrighted with usage restrictions, and even "with permission" usage isn't possible because the owners of the copyrights are not available. Sourceforge can't go near content like that, and they shouldn't. They are Caesar's Wife; they can't afford any risk or any hint of improper distribution. A *lot* of the stuff made available by list members is copyrighted and its distribution is not strictly kosher. Many of the owners of the IP involved make use of what I call "a wink and a nod" hobbyist licensing. Meaning they don't actually grant permission, they just pointedly don't object to *judicious* publication or distribution. They do so for several reasons, but the main one is that the ownership of that IP has traveled through several hands, and the current owners would have to spend an insane amount of money and time just proving that they *can* grant permission. They don't really care, but they want to not be responsible and not give up control at the same time. So they sort of shut their eyes. The problem with that from our point of view is that it can be fickle.the IP rights change hands often, and the new owners may not be so tolerant. We *have* to keep a low profile. And dude, slow down. I've been subscribed to this list for 3 or 4 years now, and I really am still a total noob in all this. Kick back, enjoy the show and the classes, and take the time to know where you are, who these guys are, and what they're about before you start being a Hero. Patience will pay off. Doc From hexstar at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 00:18:48 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:18:48 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> On 3/18/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: > > > > So, if that's true, then no one without any large hosting ability > shouldn't > be hosting any files. I wonder if your collection would be half as big as > you claim it to be if this specious principle were in fact reality. > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 > ---------------------------------------------------- > No, no need for a large hosting facility, all I'm saying is that someone who does any kind of file hosting should not come into it expecting it to be cheap, they should expect to have to pay some good monthly money to do it yet unfortunately there are people who feel they can actively help the community and share their files while paying very little but really they fail because with their roadblocks they implement they make it very hard for people to enjoy the contents of their archive ... so really all I'm saying is that if someone plans to host their archive online, or do any kind of file hosting at all they should not do it and expect to pay $10 or $20 a month or some silly figure like that but something like maybe $45-$80+ a month depending on how popular their archive is and whether or not they're able to score a unmetered connection to the internet ya know? :-) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Mar 19 00:46:01 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:46:01 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FDB69C.24112.A337071@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FE14D4.7000709@gmail.com> <45FDB69C.24112.A337071@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703182246.02098.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Chuck, On Sunday 18 March 2007 22:01, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > A computer from 40 years ago won't > > run nearly any software that's being written today. > > On the other hand, a computer from today can run software written 40 > years ago--and generally, much faster. So where's the utility in > keeping the old iron around? OTOH, keeping some of the old > peripherals around to read the old media might not be a bad idea. There are many, many cases where software written for DOS, Windows 3.1x, early versions of BSD, etc., will NOT run on high speed systems with more "modern" OSs (XP, Linux, Solaris, etc.). As part of my business, I use old hardware and software to win lawsuits (and so does Sellam). Trust me - law firms always try to use their current systems first before they hire someone to recreate an old system environment! But they are often "forced" to do so - because old software simply won't run on new hardware/software (thank goodness)... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 01:31:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:31:19 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <200703182246.02098.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FDB69C.24112.A337071@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703182246.02098.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <45FDCBC7.22337.A86204D@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2007 at 22:46, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> There are many, many cases where software written for DOS, Windows 3.1x, early > versions of BSD, etc., will NOT run on high speed systems with more "modern" > OSs (XP, Linux, Solaris, etc.). Lyle, that's not what I said. I said "a computer from today can run software written 40 years ago--and generally, much faster." I said nothing about running under one OS or another. To say that running older software on newer machines isn't possible is pretty much equivalent to saying that a new machine isn't Turing- complete. I can emulate (with whatever software necessary) cycle-for- cycle operation of an older machine. Maybe not as fast as the original (depending on the complexity of the emulation)--which is why I added "generally much faster". I can readily appreciate that I/O devices may well represent a really tough nut to crack, but given a free reign on abstraction, it can probably be done in some fashion (e.g. a disk file instead of a tape file). And the reverse is quite true. I can emulate an IA64 architecture on a 2MHz Z80, given sufficient storage and time. Not fast (or cheap), but I can do the emulation. To say that it's not possible would again be equvalent to saying that the Z80 isn't Turing-complete. Cheers, Chuck From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Mar 18 18:01:45 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:01:45 -0500 Subject: Free to a good home Message-ID: <002a01c769b1$66bdef80$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> OK, word is out, I'm in Butler, PA. Anytime your in the area, email me, come see my stuff, DEC Alpha's, VAXes, IBM PS/2's, Old PC's, Imsai, Polymorthic and Sol 20. I'm not done, just beginning, I have PC software (DOS), Netware and other soft stuff + manuals. Dan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 19 02:58:41 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:58:41 -0700 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card References: <20070318220433.46472.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45FE42B3.D08B28F9@cs.ubc.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > It's actually a little blue cylinder (made of glass), > that has a black band on one end. Should have > mentioned that before - it looks kinda like a > germanium diode, but in the schematic they seem to > have it doing rectifier duty. I've got tons of > 1N400x's, so I suppose I could try that, it looks like > it should work, given the circuit. Did they make glass > rectifiers at one point? (non tube, rectifiers, that > is...) Sounds like you have the problem covered but just to answer your question, I have seen 1N400x rectifiers in that form (glass, painted blue with black printing) on occasion in older equipment. (BTW/FWIW: Most of the rest of the 1N4xxx range is zener diodes, all the way from 1/4W to 100W Pd.) From jvdg at sparcpark.net Mon Mar 19 03:22:32 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:22:32 +0100 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software Message-ID: <nvkfp5ldw8i8ncg.190320070922@jvdg.com> Hex Star wrote: > On 3/18/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > >> That implies a systemic desire to avoid valid copyright. That doesn't >> seem like a good idea. If you don't respect others' copyright, you >> shouldn't expect anyone to respect yours. > > No problem there, I don't have any copyrighted items I've made :P > > And the idea isn't to do that just to be ignorant and say "Ha ha!" to the US > government agencies/lawyers, the idea would be to do that so that people > could upload full versions of vintage software that you once had to pay for > without having to worry about some employee coming out of the dead and suing > us...it really shouldn't be an issue with software of this age but webspace > in Russia would just make this whole copyright deal a non-issue thus meaning > we wouldn't have to censure our archives content nor deal with any > roundabout ways of distributing the archive such as requiring a free > registration Okay, you really need to start shutting up now and instead start listening and learning for a bit. I've been seeing you around a few places, and I've noticed that this isn't the first community where you'd be getting into a spot of trouble with your incessant hammering on these issues. Knock it with the illegal crap. That's what gets communities (like this one) shut down, OK? ,xtG tsooJ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Mar 19 05:16:29 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 02:16:29 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FE1D0F.4090903@mdrconsult.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator> <5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com> <45FE1D0F.4090903@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45FE62FD.9010103@socal.rr.com> I wonder if all the software ever written for the pre X mac might not fit on one modern hard drive. All it should take is a handful of people quietly sharing and accumulating. $20 for spindle of a 50 DVDs when they are on sale at Fry's, 220 GBs of storage, and maybe a terabyte would fit in a shoe box for $100 worth of media. I believe one of the binary newsgroups is for images of old software too. Sorry if all this has been talked over, I am about 37,000 messages behind on my reading. Mostly I just see a handful of posts that slip past my sorting filters. ;) From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 19 04:20:58 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 04:20:58 -0500 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <20070318184356.X83236@shell.lmi.net> References: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703190920.l2J9KqwB000531@hosting.monisys.ca> > Trivial typo nit-picking for clarity: > > On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > - 5.25" DD 40 track (Teac 55-G) > > 55-B ? > > > I'm also quite a stickler for using the proper drive when > > I read/write images - so if it's 5.25" 40 track, the 55-G > > gets connected etc. This has worked very well for me. > > 55-B ? Yes, in both cases, the DD 40 track drive should read "Teac 55-B" (It's interesting how one's fingers will repeat the same typo multiple times in a single document) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Mar 19 04:14:38 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:14:38 +0000 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:04:33 MST." <20070318220433.46472.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200703190914.JAA20732@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ian Primus said: > > > If it's a little black cylinder with a white/grey > > band at one end, about > > 6mm long and 2.5mm in diameter, it might be a > > 1N4003. That's a very > > common rectifier diode in Europe. The last digit > > encodes the PIV, for > > most applications a 1N4007 (the most common one) is > > fine. > > > > It's actually a little blue cylinder (made of glass), > that has a black band on one end. Should have > mentioned that before - it looks kinda like a > germanium diode, but in the schematic they seem to > have it doing rectifier duty. I've got tons of > 1N400x's, so I suppose I could try that, it looks like > it should work, given the circuit. Did they make glass > rectifiers at one point? (non tube, rectifiers, that > is...) > I have a number of glass diodes matching that description, the bulk of them 1N4149s. They're described in my data book as "silicon planar, high-speed switching". A 1N4007 would probably do as a substitute. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 19 05:35:17 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:35:17 -0500 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <45FD920A.32049.9A49723@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703191035.l2JAZBFO013171@hosting.monisys.ca> > Dave, that's very strange. I just went and tried it on one of my > "regular" systems, a box with an Intel TC430HX mobo in it. The > controller on this board is a National PC87306B (serial/parallel, > clock, floppy, IrDA and keyboard) that does just fine with FM. I > repeated on another "regular" box with an Intel PD440FX board (uses > the NS PD87307) with the same results. Hi Chuck, Thanks for the response. So you have not seen this before (single- density working at 250kbps but not 300kbps)? The board in question is an Aopen AP5T which has an SMC FDC37C669 controller. I just tried the same drive on another system with an NS PC87306 controller, and it does work pefectly at 300kbps. The question is - how common is this? - I'll have to dig out some of my other systems that do SD and test them. Problem is - most of them only support one physical FDC so they only have a 3.5 installed. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cc at corti-net.de Mon Mar 19 06:05:18 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:05:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703191040120.15811@linuxserv.home> On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > To verify that the drive was good, I hooked it up and tried > to read/write some disks - to my surprise I could not do > single density (at 300kbos). Tried a couple other HD drives > with the same result. On a hunch, I modded it to 300rpm, and > sure enough, I can read/write single-desnity fine at > 300rpm / 250kbps. That's a known problem with many FDCs, they can't handle FM at 150 kBit/s, only at 125 kBit/s. So either jumper your drive for dual speed (so it will spin at 300rpm for 125/250 kBit/s and at 360rpm for 250/500 kBit/s) or jumper it for single speed at 300rpm (therefore making a 5,25" drive look like a 3,5" drive to the BIOS). Christian From shirsch at adelphia.net Mon Mar 19 06:20:18 2007 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Source for 1Mx1 DIP DRAM In-Reply-To: <45FDB3B3.3020602@atarimuseum.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703181634460.7117@monarch.fast.net> <45FDB3B3.3020602@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703190719340.7117@monarch.fast.net> On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > You should be able to find them on netcomponents.com > Perhaps, but it would cost me $75.00 up front to find out. Anyone on the list have a small quantity they'd like to part with? Steve -- From shirsch at adelphia.net Mon Mar 19 06:22:20 2007 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <af4d09740703182121m1acff7c4uc25c48a621c83784@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator> <5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com> <af4d09740703182121m1acff7c4uc25c48a621c83784@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703190721450.7117@monarch.fast.net> On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, James Rice wrote: >> > And mirrored at several locations is a good idea >> > >> > > That is a problem we all share. I'm hosting a mirror of the NeXT archive > from Peanuts. I got permission and archived it before it went down. It > (Peanuts not mine) has been up and down intermittently in the past few > years. As far as I know, mine and the mirror at ftp.nice.ch are the last > two most complete archives of Peanuts publicly available on the net. And, unless that's a typo, the second is not publically available. It prompts me for a login and will not accept anonymous. -- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 07:04:28 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> from Hex Star at "Mar 18, 7 10:18:48 pm" Message-ID: <200703191204.l2JC4Seh009638@floodgap.com> > > So, if that's true, then no one without any large hosting ability > > shouldn't > > be hosting any files. I wonder if your collection would be half as big as > > you claim it to be if this specious principle were in fact reality. > No, no need for a large hosting facility, all I'm saying is that someone who > does any kind of file hosting should not come into it expecting it to be > cheap, they should expect to have to pay some good monthly money to do it "Thank you for buying me this beer, but you are a jerk because you won't buy me all the beer I want." Does that not seem asinine to you? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I ... I love you!" "Oh noo! I don't!" -- Awful movie, "Ranma 1/2" --------- From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 07:11:06 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:11:06 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <008f01c769e4$8e31d940$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk> <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703181343wb34fc7ds4a0fe80f9bd8cd57@mail.gmail.com> <45FE165D.3080807@gmail.com> <008f01c769e4$8e31d940$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45FE7DDA.50906@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: >> Hex Star wrote: >>> The Russian comment is that if someone here does speak russian it would > be >>> possible to get Russian hosting in Russia which would prevent us from >>> having >>> to deal with US copyright issues and thus be able to upload whatever we >>> want >> That implies a systemic desire to avoid valid copyright. That doesn't >> seem like a good idea. If you don't respect others' copyright, you >> shouldn't expect anyone to respect yours. >> >> I write open-source software. The last thing I would want is for people >> to be ignoring my licenses wholesale. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > The issue is what do you do if you want Adobe Photoshop 1.0 when the > copyright holder does not sell or support that version and the latest will > not run on a Mac with 512k RAM. > > You can wait 10 years and maybe it will show up on ebay, or you can pirate > it. > > What is Adobe doesn't even have the original Photoshop 1.0 code anymore, is > it ok to let it fade away because of bitrot? No, but that's not what Hex Star was talking about. He was talking about creating a website in Russia to get around software publishers who still want to enforce their copyright. Peace... Sridhar From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Mar 19 07:38:17 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:38:17 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FDB5F8.12675.A30F007@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FD227F.8351.7F0E3ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <45FE1327.8040300@gmail.com> <45FDB5F8.12675.A30F007@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45FE8439.1000100@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > When do we reach the point where added computational power > contributes nothing toward the ability to perform the desired > function (for home users; commercial users may be a different kettle > of fish) given the speed of the network interconnections and the work > to be performed using them. what ?1?, what the hell kind of statement is this ??? what about the past 30/40/50 yrs ? __Where do you draw the line then .-- would you actually continue using something like 80286 machine in this day in age ? [not including windows] > I don't think a petaflop system on my > desktop would substantially enhance my computing "experience". > This is a ridiculous. Do you think people only play MP3s or videos on their machine ? You forget there a numerous hobbies out there--amateur radio/astronomy,etc,etc-- besides the home automation industry that let _home users_ make good use of the new technology. Fast cars and fast computers, is like comparing apples to oranges. Somebody's 'desk' wouldn't have any limitation to what speed that is capable by a computing machine. I seem to recall a very "prophetic" statement which someone continually denies, by changing it's history(thanks to Wikipedia)--even though it's fully documented by others (click here and listen to mp3, @ 22:00 min) I suggest mirroring this webpage. / He also alludes to the fact that he thought that in 1981, 640k would be good enough for everyone!" /* *http://tinyurl.com/2m957b =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 19 07:42:10 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:42:10 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <45FE8522.B623E27B@rain.org> > From: "Hex Star" <hexstar at gmail.com> > > > On 3/18/07, der Mouse <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote: > > > > If you can't see the difference between helping people and feeding > > leeches...*boggle* > > I agree with Jim, why is someone uploading big sized files for people to > download when at the same time they don't expect to spend lots of monthly > bandwidth? That just doesn't make sense...any file archive and just file > hosting in general is going to involve investing alot of monthly bandwidth This "I can do as I want" discussion boils down to respect for others. It is utterly arrogant (and stupid) to disregard the wishes of someone providing something for free. Most of us give away our time to help others, but expecting us to allow others to also just take our money is ... well ... der Mouse put it best with *boggle*!!! From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 19 08:16:12 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:16:12 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:38:17 EDT." <45FE8439.1000100@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200703191316.l2JDGCjq032350@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dan wrote: > >I seem to recall a very "prophetic" statement which someone continually >denies, by changing it's history(thanks to Wikipedia)--even though it's >fully documented by others (click here and listen to mp3, @ 22:00 min) I >suggest mirroring this webpage. >/ He also alludes to the fact that he thought that in 1981, 640k would >be good enough for everyone!" /* *http://tinyurl.com/2m957b I remember talking to Microsoft people at IETF meetings, once they started to show up. This would be in the early '90s. The IETF had been going on for some time when they waltzed in, and the culture clash was apparent; they were not used to a situation where they didn't own everything. And, they didn't really "get" where that "internet thing" was going. It felt very much like they were trying to game the system. Luck, not vision, plays a huge role in determining success. -brad From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 08:22:37 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:22:37 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <200703191316.l2JDGCjq032350@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703191316.l2JDGCjq032350@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <45FE8E9D.5090507@gmail.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Dan wrote: >> I seem to recall a very "prophetic" statement which someone continually >> denies, by changing it's history(thanks to Wikipedia)--even though it's >> fully documented by others (click here and listen to mp3, @ 22:00 min) I >> suggest mirroring this webpage. >> / He also alludes to the fact that he thought that in 1981, 640k would >> be good enough for everyone!" /* *http://tinyurl.com/2m957b > > I remember talking to Microsoft people at IETF meetings, once they > started to show up. This would be in the early '90s. > > The IETF had been going on for some time when they waltzed in, and the > culture clash was apparent; they were not used to a situation where they > didn't own everything. And, they didn't really "get" where that > "internet thing" was going. It felt very much like they were trying to > game the system. If you'd be willing, I'd be curious to hear a concrete example of what you mean, if you can remember one. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 19 08:27:34 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:27:34 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com><200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> Hexxie wrote.... > yet unfortunately there are people who feel they can actively help the > community and share their files while paying very little but really they > fail because with their roadblocks they implement they make it very hard > for > people to enjoy the contents of their archive ... Woah. So the people with a few files that people want... the people who are being nice enough to share... are unfortunate because of that? I'm just speechless. It's amazing how some seem to have forgotten courtesy, politeness, and common decency. I don't think I've ever seen such a sense of entitlement displayed as Jim & Hexxie are putting forward. Jay From james.rice at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 08:37:02 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:37:02 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703190721450.7117@monarch.fast.net> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator> <5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com> <af4d09740703182121m1acff7c4uc25c48a621c83784@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703190721450.7117@monarch.fast.net> Message-ID: <af4d09740703190637l455c4bc5g9c135b2fa92035af@mail.gmail.com> On 3/19/07, Steven N. Hirsch <shirsch at adelphia.net> wrote: > > On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, James Rice wrote: > > >> > And mirrored at several locations is a good idea > >> > > >> > > > > That is a problem we all share. I'm hosting a mirror of the NeXT > archive > > from Peanuts. I got permission and archived it before it went down. It > > (Peanuts not mine) has been up and down intermittently in the past few > > years. As far as I know, mine and the mirror at ftp.nice.ch are the > last > > two most complete archives of Peanuts publicly available on the net. > > And, unless that's a typo, the second is not publically available. It > prompts me for a login and will not accept anonymous. > > > -- > It's not a typo. The link works for me. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From pspan at amerytel.net Mon Mar 19 08:37:51 2007 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:37:51 -0500 Subject: 1m X 1 memoory Message-ID: <000501c76a2b$cc2fc850$6714a8c0@home> I just went ooutt and checked Jameco, they had 18 pin rams @ 100ns for 2.59 ea. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 08:57:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:57:21 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703190430.AAA04498@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game><5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <007201c769cd$e204dc50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45FE0718.2010403@oldskool.org> <200703190430.AAA04498@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45FE96C1.8000907@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: > Look. It's really quite simple: please respect the archive provider's > wishes. If you don't know what they are, either ask or be > conservative. I suspect that's really the main point (except that archive provider doesn't always equal the bandwidth provider, as with classiccmp.org :-) What probably gets to a lot of people are those who mirror content and then try to pass it off as their own (as in: "hey, look at what I have - aren't I cool?", even though it took them 30 seconds of effort to do the "work"). People wishing to mirror (or at least snapshot) a site for the sake of preservation probably have a good case - after all multiple distributed copies of anything important *is* a good thing. But they should *always* ask first rather than just assuming it's OK to do so, as you've said. (Which, to be fair, I think Hex Star did) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 09:03:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:03:01 -0500 Subject: Fwd: large vanload of NorthStar equipment offered In-Reply-To: <008b01c769ce$6a431870$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <E1HT0JU-0005Pr-00@xmission.xmission.com> <008b01c769ce$6a431870$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45FE9815.3040704@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > We're certainly interested in hearing about gear available, but > attachments aren't the way to do it. If you can, just post the text of > the message - or just ask to be contacted off-list :) ... Or stick the content online somewhere and post a link, I suppose [1]. (providing enough context is given to say what the link is - personally I'll very rarely follow a "hey, look at this!" link if I have absolutely no idea what it is!) [1] Would it be useful to have a "public" FTP web-accessible site on classiccmp.org for situations like this? Say, limit files to a week before they're purged and limit the file size to something small (500KB max). I don't know, perhaps too open to abuse from non-classiccmpers? My random I'm-not-awake-yet thought of the morning, anyway :) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 19 09:27:22 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:27:22 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703152146v6c47df88j6227b3fbaa309876@mail.gmail.com><200703160450.l2G4or1C013992@floodgap.com><5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com><45FAB324.5000205@yahoo.co.uk><20070316135224.S87446@shell.lmi.net><1174079496.22113.36.camel@ljw.me.uk><00f101c76811$df417450$0b01a8c0@game><007601c7682e$1d5cbdf0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <002601c76856$18a6a8c0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <003c01c76a32$b7fae250$6400a8c0@BILLING> Ted wrote.... > How much bandwidth and space would be accessible without causing you too > much pain? I can't see 68K related driver disks and files taking up too > much > space, or getting heavily leached. What do you think about PDFs of > copyrighted manuals (even if the company went under or still exists but > has > dumped support years ago)? I'm at the top of one of those "stairsteps" that I mentioned. Disk is tight at the moment as is bandwidth. But given that: 1) 68K files aren't going to take much space or get leeched much AND 2) That it will not be very long before we add disk space (and bandwidth) and then it won't be tight at all.... I'd be happy to create a spot for you. Jay From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Mar 19 02:38:45 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:38:45 -0000 Subject: Fwd: large vanload of NorthStar equipment offered Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DE4@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yikes! Don't I wish I lived in the USA! Having written applications in Cbasic on Horizons years ago. I would just love one for my collection. Oh well 'one day in the uk' (maybe) Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 18 March 2007 18:41 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fwd: large vanload of NorthStar equipment offered Well apparently the attachment didn't come through... So here it is inline. Please respond to the original poster directly and not to me. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:14:02 -0500 From: "OLD-COMPUTERS.COM Newsletter" <mail at old-computers.com> Subject: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM ~ donation offer Id: <E1HSv5t-0000N7-41 at mgr14.xmission.com> --------- Hi Tim Deaton, former Northstar dealer, contacted us to offer us as a donation a la rge van load of NorthStar and NorthStar related computers, software, parts and m isc stuff including Horizon, Advantage, and Din- ension chassis and parts, never been used Zenith S-100 buss machine, never opene d software applications packages, old technical manuals, add-on cards and device s, and oddball stuff... Sadly, as we are based in France we can't handle this exceptional donation. So we pass the message to all collectors, mainly those based in the USA. If you want this stuff, there are two conditions: - you must accept to help www.old-computers.com get info & pictures from this st uff to be added to the museum - You will have to do as as Tim say (see his email below) If you are interested, mail me back (olivier at old-computers) explaining why you t hink you can fulfill those two conditions. I will give Tim contacts to the first serious reply. Good luck ___TIM ORIGINAL MAIL________ I have a large van load of NorthStar and NorthStar related computers, software, parts and misc stuff that needs a good home. You can have this stuff IF you will use it responsibly. This includes Horizon, Advantage, and Din- ension chassis and parts. A never been used Zenith S-100 buss machine, never opened software applications packages, old technical manuals, add-on cards and devices, and oddball stuff you probably never thought you would see again. I also have a score of Televideo terminals. I may have some serial cabling and I have A LOAD of Full Height Floppy Disk drives. If you will find them a good home, you can have them but you must pick them up. The cache is located near Indianapolis and I will be returning to the area from my home in Florida in June of this year. If you have a FULL size van and removed the second and third row of seats, you could likely get all the chassis and software packed in. If you want the parts and the terminals, better bring a panel truck. You will have to help me sort them out of the HUGE stash of equipment I have in the garage and office. _____________________________________________________ OLD-COMPUTERS.COM Collectors Mailing =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-= -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Mar 19 03:54:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:54:01 -0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DE8@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Rice Sent: 19 March 2007 04:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? On 3/18/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > If you want a mirror it would be nice just to ask the owner for a DVD > set of the data which takes little time and doesn't hog bandwidth from > others who just want a few files. > > I ran a private FTP during the later 90's when cable 1st came around > in my area. I never cared if people connected and downloaded what was > on the site as long as they didn't use software that logged in > multiple times to suck down all the bandwidth from the other users, > and didn't hammer the site every second to get on when the slots were > full. Everybody is different and you need to respect their rules. > > My employer lets me host my site of their bandwidth. I do throttle downloads at 1.8kbps and limit connections to two from any IP address. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Mar 19 04:00:12 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:00:12 -0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DE9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> This is the old 'Apple Box' issue: If you have surplus apples and put a box with 'Please take one' by your gate is that different to a box with 'Help yourself on it' Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse Sent: 19 March 2007 04:19 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? >> Perhaps some DOLT leeching the entire site causes them to be shut >> down by their provider due to bandwidth. Perhaps some selfabsorbed >> arrogant miscreant sucking down the entire site, costs this guy a >> sudden $200 bill that he wasn't expecting due to bandwidth. How RUDE >> not to respect the site owners wishes. > 1. If the person didn't want to share the files, then why are they up > on the 'net in the first place? Perhaps the person was interested in helping people who actually ahve a need for them, instead of feeding leeches. > 2. QoS has been around for over a decade, both software and hardware. > Put bandwidth controls on your stuff if you fear it will cost you > money. My FTP server limits to 16KB/s because I pay for my bandwidth. Bully for you. So now it's the victim's fault? I don't have any easy way to place bandwidth limits on my FTP server. If I get hit with a leech who ends up costing me bandwidth overage charges, do you think I'm going to go spend money to keep it from happening again? No; I'm far more likely to either shut it down entirely or just report the abuser to the provider used (and quite likely ban access from that provider in the interim, with the ban made permanent if they don't consider it abuse). I have trouble thinking any of us who run anon FTP sites are likely to react otherwise. I've had the same discussion, basically, with qmail fans. They too seem to think that it's sane to take the stance "I should be able to grab all I want, and if you don't want me to you should make sure I can't". The concept that computers are used by humans and that politeness is important to humans seems completely lost on them. (And yes, I've had to put automated defenses in place against qmail's commonest form of abuse - connection-bombing receiving mailservers.) > 3. Not everyone has to host their files on a plan that will cost them > crazy money if abused. Great. Therefore it's OK to abuse those who don't? Look. It's really quite simple: please respect the archive provider's wishes. If you don't know what they are, either ask or be conservative. Anything else risks destroying the resource you are abusing. >> Sorry, touched a nerve. > Sorry, but you still haven't proven your point. There is nothing to prove. You are asked to not abuse something provided free. You are arguing "you should make it impossible to abuse". True or false, that does not, repeat DOES NOT, excuse your abusing it, or attempting to. > Offering files online for the good of the community, then putting > arbitrary limits on access, doesn't make sense. You either want to > help people, or you don't. If you can't see the difference between helping people and feeding leeches...*boggle* /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Mar 19 06:09:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:09:50 -0400 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density Message-ID: <0JF5003IBDKPK208@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density > From: "Dave Dunfield" <dave06a at dunfield.com> > Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:36:40 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Today I stumbled across something that may explain why some >people I've corresponded with have had such a hard time >getting single-density to work with disk imageing. > >For my own setup, I have a couple of trusty Aopen AP5T >mainboards which do single-density nicely, installed in >cases with an internal 3.5" HD (1.44M) drive as A:, and >an external cable allowing me to connect any of the >following as drive B: > - 5.25" DD 40 track (Teac 55-G) Dave, Don't you want to be using a 55B whish is a real 40 track drive? > - 5.25" DD 80 track (Teac 55-F) > - 5.25" HD 80 track (Teac 55-G) > - 8" DS (Qumetrack 242) > >I'm also quite a stickler for using the proper drive when >I read/write images - so if it's 5.25" 40 track, the 55-G >gets connected etc. This has worked very well for me. > >Today I was setting up another system to do 5.25" disks >only, and I wanted it to be self contained within one case. >To minimize the drives, I decided to modify a Panasonic >JU-475 with a switch on the front bezel to force it to 300 >rpm to serve as both the DD/80 and an HD/80 drive. > >To verify that the drive was good, I hooked it up and tried >to read/write some disks - to my surprise I could not do >single density (at 300kbos). Tried a couple other HD drives >with the same result. On a hunch, I modded it to 300rpm, and >sure enough, I can read/write single-desnity fine at >300rpm / 250kbps. > >(Yeah, I know the SD rate is really only 1/2 - by 250/300kbps, >I am referring to the MFM settings for the AT controller data >rate select register). > >To rule out some odd ImageDisk quirk, I tried several versions >of TeleDisk - with the drive at 360rpm and configured as a 1.2M >HD drive, none of them could read a single-density disk either. > >So at least for my AP5Ts, it appears that the internal controller >can do single or double density at 250kbps, but only double- >density at the "at compatible" 360rpm rate of 300kbps. My guess >is that the data separator does not work at that rate (works >fine at 500kbps however). > >I'm curious to know if this is a charactistic specific to the >machines I am using, or if it is common among PCs that do single- >density to not work at 300kbps. Has anyone here read and/or >created single density 5.25" disk on a 1.2M HD drive spinning >at 360rpm? There is at least one reason not to do this. The bit shift is greater due to write speed. Also some integrated version of the 765 (superchips) select precomp based on clock speed and that may be less than optimum. Finally the drive used may shift write current based on media speed. this also ignores the 96tpi and 48 tpi issues that are worse when writeing an already formatted disk. Any or all of those can undermine relaibility. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 09:45:51 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:45:51 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45FEA21F.8000203@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > OK, a more considered reply now I've got a few minutes... > = How to go about building it > A tricky question - Who's going to do all this work? The good > news is that it can be shared, but it will require a bit of a > committment. Not everyone is going to want to put up the > investment to acquire the means to process their disk collection. > What I am thinking of is several key volenteers positioned so as > to cover the major geographic areas who would be willing to set > up the necessary software and equipment to handle as many > different media types as possible, and provide a service to > nearby collectors to turn media into images, and to turn images > into media. Working with others in the project, the images > could be transmitted and shared so that any particuylar system > disk can be accessed from anywhere. That much makes sense to me. I've been steadily collecting various relevant odds and ends for the past couple of years with a view to doing just that - various drives, controllers, tape units etc. In order to spread this around as much as possible, we could probably do with some "style guide" documents produced by some of the list gurus as to what hardware works with what etc. (e.g. summarising things like the responses to my recent question about hooking an 8" floppy drive up to a PC). That will hopefully encourage more people to participate. (There's certainly been a lot of knowledge shared on this list in the past about recovering old tapes too - it'd be nice to see that written up somewhere "central") Hmmm, it's not really a FAQ, but there's perhaps scope for something like a "classiccmp.org knowledge base" containing info like this? > = How to make the archive available > Another tricky question, which has two major components, legality > and accessability. I still think the key here is distribution. Allow people who have specialist knowledge in a particular area to run their own little corner of the web as they see fit - but they also "publish" what they've made available through some defined mechanism. In addition, they present some unified way of searching across *all* participating sites for content. To extend that concept a little further (thinking on my feet here), how's about we say that each "published" bit of data can be marked with different levels: "Offline" (say pending copyright issue resolution!) Free for download (i.e. available to all users) Available for mirror (to specific peers) Available for mirror (to anyone wishing to make a mirror of the item) Obvious benefits: 1) The "specialists" in any given area retain control over what they have available, the format that it's in, and the "look and feel" of whatever frills surround the actual data. 2) There's no unwieldy central repository, with corresponding high cost of maintenance. 3) Mirroring is more controllable. 4) Searching (from a user POV) can be flexible and tailored to certain pre-defined "classes" of content. 5) Copyright is at least a little less of an issue; if someone publishes something that violates copyright, it's far more likely to come down on their own head than jeaporising the distributed archive as a whole. 6) Dictating a "common archival format" that everyone agrees on probably isn't possible, for various reasons. Look at what happened with Sellam's efforts. However, dictating a common set of different content types (disk image, documentation scan etc.), and the metadata fields that they can be searched for with, is a heck of a lot easier! 7) Admin is a lot easier, as every participating site owner is an admin of the stuff that *they* make available, rather than having one person (or a team) trying to look after everything - Al can probably comment on what a headache this is! Downsides: 1) Probably needs a web interface at least for the searching (but that's not to stop someone making the actual data available over FTP or whatever, and the search interface code could be produced in a variety of languages - PHP, ASP etc. - to provide flexibility) 2) The actual database of "what's where" probably still needs to be central, because distributing that across multiple sites (ala DNS) is likely impractical, plus the majority of websites probably do have some server-side scripting ability, but not necessarily any kind of coherent database support) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 19 09:46:46 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:46:46 -0500 Subject: 11/45 works, but.... Message-ID: <004401c76a35$6b7a5a20$6400a8c0@BILLING> The 11/45 has booted an OS for the first time since I got it. RT11 came right up. Interrupts are working. Awesome :) That's actually very satisfying because the machine was in very rough shape when I got it. After fixing the power supply (which was a new problem, unrelated to the previous interrupt issue I think), I started growing the configuration back to where I wanted it to be in little increments... like adding the BA11K back in (with nothing in it, just the 930). Then putting in the M9312, Then adding in the unibus memory, RL controller, dropping the core out of the picture, etc.... and testing between each small step. It got back to the full config and still interrupts are working. So, unfortunately I'm not sure what actually fixed the problem which is a little unsettling. But it was a big thrill to see the RT11 prompt :) That being said, I am using a borrowed set of cpu boards. Over the next few sessions I plan to start adding my boards back in one at a time and I'm betting some of them won't work so I'll still be looking for help to repair those (and that will also help me understand the machine better). Note that the interrupt problem occured with the same borrowed cpu boards, but now it's gone. Odd. Another oddity reared it's head. The system was very stable with just the RL controller. I then installed an RX02 (M8256) controller (and removed the NPR jumper for that slot). I turned on the system but left the RL02 turned off. The RX02 worked perfectly. Then I turned on the RL02. It powered up ok (no fault) but when I spin it up I got a fault light. It is not the drive, nor is it the pack. If I shut everything down and leave the RX02 drive powered off (but controller still installed), the RL02 will come up fine and not fault. So there is apparently something that the RL controller doesn't like about the RX02 controller? The NPR jumper is removed for the two slots where the RL and RX controllers are, but definitely present in all other slots. I'm also soliciting advice on memory configuration. The processor has 16Kw core in the system chassis. I don't own any MOS/Bipolar. I have two unibus 64Kw memory boards (M7891 I think it is). My plan was to run the system with one 64Kw unibus board, hold the other for spare, and leave the core disconnected. I know I can run RT11 ok in 64kw. But based on requirements for other things like RSTS, etc... am I better off leaving the 16kw of core connected? In other words, for most DEC OS's on the /45 am I going to have trouble with 64kw but not 80kw? If it won't make a difference in what I can run I'll probably just leave the core disconnected. Thoughts? Thanks! Jay West From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 19 10:54:24 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:54:24 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> At 07:27 AM 3/19/2007, Jay West wrote: >I don't think I've ever seen such a sense of entitlement displayed as Jim & Hexxie are putting forward. It's clearly a common view - apart from right or wrong. How many users today expect all their movies for free, all their music for free? And that they should be able to download and upload all day long, as much as their pipe can handle? To many, an open ftp or web site is a free resource. Without any previous indoctrination in an earlier culture that might prevent wholesale downloading, they'll sap it until they're tired of it. - John From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 19 10:53:56 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:53:56 -0500 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <0JF5003IBDKPK208@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200703191458.l2JEwW9H030734@mail2.magma.ca> > > - 5.25" DD 40 track (Teac 55-G) > > Dave, > > Don't you want to be using a 55B whish is a real 40 track drive? Yes - Yes --- didn't anyone read my next posting made within about 10 mins of the first one where I indicated this was a typo (yeah, I know.. people answer in the order they read them). > Has anyone here read and/or > >created single density 5.25" disk on a 1.2M HD drive spinning > >at 360rpm? > > There is at least one reason not to do this. The bit shift is greater > due to write speed. Also some integrated version of the 765 (superchips) > select precomp based on clock speed and that may be less than optimum. > Finally the drive used may shift write current based on media speed. > this also ignores the 96tpi and 48 tpi issues that are worse when writeing > an already formatted disk. Any or all of those can undermine relaibility. I agree completely, which is why I always use the proper drive type for the disk format I am reading or writing ... This is why I have never noticed this before... In my original post, I indicated I was moding a drive to do double duty as a 80 track HD and a 80 track DD drive - this should be OK, as the data rates, number of tracks correctly match the disk format in both cases (with the mod to switch the drive down to 300rpm for DD). But ... I get correspondance from people trying to use ImageDisk to make specific disks, and they often don't have all of the various drive types. Making 5.25" disks in an HD drive is VERY common - Many people don't have spare 5.25" drives kicking around, and when they finally find one, it's in sombodies old 386 and conforms to "AT standards" (ie: 1.2M HD drive fixed at 360rpm). At appears that some systems do support SD at 300kbps (150kbps data rate) and some don't. I think it might be time to begin building a database of exactly what can be done with various mainboards and controllers - When I get some spare time, I will put together a utility to test the various modes with the various drive types and make it available on my site so that these things can be easily characterised - as I've recently learned "it does single-density" isn't a complete answer. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 10:15:27 2007 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:15:27 -0600 Subject: Source for 1Mx1 DIP DRAM In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703190719340.7117@monarch.fast.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703181634460.7117@monarch.fast.net> <45FDB3B3.3020602@atarimuseum.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703190719340.7117@monarch.fast.net> Message-ID: <7d9403580703190815v3b7d21a5x30a873e8f81d8e2e@mail.gmail.com> Steve, - Jameco (www.jameco.com) sells them and also - Or Unicorn Electronics: http://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/DYNAMIC.html Sell them... On 3/19/07, Steven N. Hirsch <shirsch at adelphia.net> wrote: > > On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > > > You should be able to find them on netcomponents.com > > > > Perhaps, but it would cost me $75.00 up front to find out. > > Anyone on the list have a small quantity they'd like to part with? > > Steve > > > -- > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 19 10:25:42 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:25:42 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com><200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com><5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com><009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> Message-ID: <00a901c76a3a$dde41bf0$6400a8c0@BILLING> John wrote.... > Without any > previous indoctrination in an earlier culture that might prevent > wholesale downloading, they'll sap it until they're tired of it. You're completely right. I just find it odd and/or sad that courtesy is somehow limited to "an earlier culture". I guess I'm just rapidly approaching grumpy-old-jay status. Hey, you kids, get offa my lawn! ;) Jay From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 19 10:44:41 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:44:41 -0400 Subject: 11/45 works, but.... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:46:46 CDT." <004401c76a35$6b7a5a20$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200703191544.l2JFiftY008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: ... >fault. So there is apparently something that the RL controller doesn't like >about the RX02 controller? The NPR jumper is removed for the two slots where Is the rx02 controller a dma device? I'm probably wrong but I don't think I've put it in slots where the NPR was removed. The RL11 sure is, but I thought the rx02 was "by hand", i.e. not a bus master. It probably doesn't matter, since if it isn't it probably loops NPR on the card. -brad From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 19 11:53:49 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:53:49 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <00a901c76a3a$dde41bf0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <00a901c76a3a$dde41bf0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070319103702.06b92590@mail> At 09:25 AM 3/19/2007, Jay West wrote: >You're completely right. I just find it odd and/or sad that courtesy is somehow limited to "an earlier culture". >I guess I'm just rapidly approaching grumpy-old-jay status. Hey, you kids, get offa my lawn! ;) Yes, and when I was a kid, we had 30 chars per second, both ways, and we were glad for it! There's plenty of confusion to go around, though. How can anyone make sense of music and video distribution models that want to resell you the same production in different arrangement of bits? Of crash-and-burn Web business models that do give away the milk for free? Of consumers who intend to strain and break the asymmetric oversubscription model of ISPs? - John From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 11:24:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:24:22 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FE8439.1000100@comcast.net> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FDB5F8.12675.A30F007@cclist.sydex.com>, <45FE8439.1000100@comcast.net> Message-ID: <45FE56C6.13720.CA514C4@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2007 at 8:38, Dan wrote: > This is a ridiculous. Do you think people only play MP3s or videos on > their machine ? You forget there a numerous hobbies out there--amateur > radio/astronomy,etc,etc-- besides the home automation industry that let > _home users_ make good use of the new technology. Cool down, there. I was merely observing that connectivity (being the highway) has trailed Moore's Laws (at least in the US) for quite some time. Given that the bulk of the use for home PCs is net- based; there will come a time that there is simply not enough bandwidth *commonly* available to feed a petaflop machine. Really, in m neck of the woods, broadband capacity has increased very slowly--1.5 Mb/sec is as good as I can do today--and was as good as was offered 5 years ago. Remember that most of the nation is still on dialup. Certainly, today, I can purchase a Bugatti Veyron, but I might have finding a palce to open it up. Not only is it expensive because there's some uncommon enginnering, but also because the market is limited.l The same evenutally must apply to a PC--yes, you can have the power, but if you're only offered dialup service, what are you going to do with it. There will be no mass market for the ultra- powered PC, so while it might be available, it will be not be the model in common use. Regardless of the needs of home hobbyists, who don't drive production of consumer PCs, most people I know of still use the box primarily for email and web browsing. I don't consider amateur astronomy to be in the "killer app" class. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 11:29:16 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:29:16 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftparchives disappearing?) Message-ID: <BAY138-F28816F788E0D11CB0A6A90A3760@phx.gbl> >From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > >OK, a more considered reply now I've got a few minutes... > >>= How to go about building it >>A tricky question - Who's going to do all this work? The good >>news is that it can be shared, but it will require a bit of a >>committment. Not everyone is going to want to put up the >>investment to acquire the means to process their disk collection. >>What I am thinking of is several key volenteers positioned so as >>to cover the major geographic areas who would be willing to set >>up the necessary software and equipment to handle as many >>different media types as possible, and provide a service to >>nearby collectors to turn media into images, and to turn images >>into media. Working with others in the project, the images >>could be transmitted and shared so that any particuylar system >>disk can be accessed from anywhere. > >That much makes sense to me. I've been steadily collecting various relevant >odds and ends for the past couple of years with a view to doing just that - >various drives, controllers, tape units etc. > >In order to spread this around as much as possible, we could probably do >with some "style guide" documents produced by some of the list gurus as to >what hardware works with what etc. (e.g. summarising things like the >responses to my recent question about hooking an 8" floppy drive up to a >PC). That will hopefully encourage more people to participate. > >(There's certainly been a lot of knowledge shared on this list in the past >about recovering old tapes too - it'd be nice to see that written up >somewhere "central") > >Hmmm, it's not really a FAQ, but there's perhaps scope for something like a >"classiccmp.org knowledge base" containing info like this? > >>= How to make the archive available >>Another tricky question, which has two major components, legality >>and accessability. > >I still think the key here is distribution. Allow people who have >specialist knowledge in a particular area to run their own little corner of >the web as they see fit - but they also "publish" what they've made >available through some defined mechanism. In addition, they present some >unified way of searching across *all* participating sites for content. > >To extend that concept a little further (thinking on my feet here), how's >about we say that each "published" bit of data can be marked with different >levels: > > "Offline" (say pending copyright issue resolution!) > Free for download (i.e. available to all users) > Available for mirror (to specific peers) > Available for mirror (to anyone wishing to make a mirror of the item) > >Obvious benefits: > > 1) The "specialists" in any given area retain control over what they >have available, the format that it's in, and the "look and feel" of >whatever frills surround the actual data. > > 2) There's no unwieldy central repository, with corresponding high cost >of maintenance. > > 3) Mirroring is more controllable. > > 4) Searching (from a user POV) can be flexible and tailored to certain >pre-defined "classes" of content. > > 5) Copyright is at least a little less of an issue; if someone publishes >something that violates copyright, it's far more likely to come down on >their own head than jeaporising the distributed archive as a whole. > > 6) Dictating a "common archival format" that everyone agrees on probably >isn't possible, for various reasons. Look at what happened with Sellam's >efforts. However, dictating a common set of different content types (disk >image, documentation scan etc.), and the metadata fields that they can be >searched for with, is a heck of a lot easier! > > 7) Admin is a lot easier, as every participating site owner is an admin >of the stuff that *they* make available, rather than having one person (or >a team) trying to look after everything - Al can probably comment on what a >headache this is! > >Downsides: > > 1) Probably needs a web interface at least for the searching (but that's >not to stop someone making the actual data available over FTP or whatever, >and the search interface code could be produced in a variety of languages - >PHP, ASP etc. - to provide flexibility) > > 2) The actual database of "what's where" probably still needs to be >central, because distributing that across multiple sites (ala DNS) is >likely impractical, plus the majority of websites probably do have some >server-side scripting ability, but not necessarily any kind of coherent >database support) Hi I thought I'd add a little here. One thing that is missing. We'd need some way to keep it running beyond when we are gone. There should be a trust setup. It should have at least two or three people maintaining is and willing to deal with the tax issues. I tend to agree that it shouldn't force format. Dave's open format is vary well thought out and his tool is good but there is legacy data that would need to be converted. As an example, the disk image data I have for the Polymorphic 8813 is in the format used by the Polymorphic software to move disk images through modems to other Polymorphic machines. It does currently lack a method to restore it to a machine that has no boot floppy ( over time I hope to fix that ). Other images are not even as floppy images. As an example, all the data that I have for my Nicolet floppy disk system is images on paper tape data ( in files on my PC ). And of course, I also have cassette data images. Some people like to store cassette images as audio files. I like to store the actual data. I have done this for my Poly88 stuff and have a bootstrap method to get things started without a first tape. I also have images in a format that I'm just too lazy to convert. As an example, the images I made for my H89. These also have some legacy issues, as my tool was used to create the images for the hard sectored images on SEBHC. I've included a method to bootstrap without having a first disk. Of course, there should always be some form of readme with each group of files explaining how to use the files. In the past, this has been one of the hardest things to figure out on random archives. Many times, I've seen images with no information on what to do with them. This has happened because the directory was copied from someplace without the support. Each directory should have at least a simple readme describing how the images were made and what tool should be used to recover them. Just a readme at the top directory is not enough. The top directory may get separated. A readme is minimum. These readme's may need updating as time goes by. Things like the fact that some tool needs to run under a particular OS and not some future OS that may be more common, needs to be passed on. It is hard to tell what bit of information that is assumed today may be key for extracting useful data in the future. It must be a living archive. Just my thoughts Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN Presents today. http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Mar 19 11:33:54 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:33:54 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FDCBC7.22337.A86204D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703182246.02098.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <45FDCBC7.22337.A86204D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703190933.54697.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 18 March 2007 23:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Mar 2007 at 22:46, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> There are many, many cases where software written for DOS, Windows > > 3.1x, early > > > versions of BSD, etc., will NOT run on high speed systems with more > > "modern" OSs (XP, Linux, Solaris, etc.). > > Lyle, that's not what I said. I said "a computer from today can run > software written 40 years ago--and generally, much faster." I said > nothing about running under one OS or another. > > To say that running older software on newer machines isn't possible > is pretty much equivalent to saying that a new machine isn't Turing- > complete. I can emulate (with whatever software necessary) cycle-for- > cycle operation of an older machine. Maybe not as fast as the > original (depending on the complexity of the emulation)--which is why > I added "generally much faster". Not to belabor this, but timing IS the issue. Many early OSes used "timing loops" - which is bad coding - but easy programtically. OSes also made/make assumptions of when interrupts will occur - and it what order. Of course, one could use a clock accurate emulator to deal with this and other CPU and I/O related timing issues. > I can readily appreciate that I/O devices may well represent a really > tough nut to crack, but given a free reign on abstraction, it can > probably be done in some fashion (e.g. a disk file instead of a tape > file). > > And the reverse is quite true. I can emulate an IA64 architecture on > a 2MHz Z80, given sufficient storage and time. Not fast (or cheap), > but I can do the emulation. To say that it's not possible would > again be equvalent to saying that the Z80 isn't Turing-complete. It's quite true that one can emulate or model virtually any architecture (I ran a modeling group at IBM's Poughkeepsie Development Lab. for several years). Unfortunately, while emulation/simulation of hardware/software is valuable, it is essentially useless in patent litigation matters. For example, if one wants to kill a 1983 patent, and there is inadequate written prior art available, one may be able to use 1983 (or earlier) physical technology (hardware and software) to do it. In court, the opposition would "nail" any hardware/software presensted to a jury that was not contemporaneous with or earlier than the patent being litigated. Anything not original would "contaminate" an exhibit (because of the potential for "cheating", etc.). That fact precludes the use of emulation, simulation, etc. of old hardware/software on modern systems in patent litigation. Hey, be glad that some of us use old hardware/software to kill bad patents :-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From allain at panix.com Mon Mar 19 12:37:14 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:37:14 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FDB5F8.12675.A30F007@cclist.sydex.com>, <45FE8439.1000100@comcast.net> <45FE56C6.13720.CA514C4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000b01c76a4d$3c461380$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Remember that most of the nation is still on dialup. I had heard that the 50% point was passed two+ years ago. jea From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 11:40:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:40:14 -0700 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <200703191035.l2JAZBFO013171@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FD920A.32049.9A49723@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703191035.l2JAZBFO013171@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45FE5A7E.2957.CB39DAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2007 at 5:35, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Thanks for the response. So you have not seen this before (single- > density working at 250kbps but not 300kbps)? No, but it's not a practice I've followed much. Many, if not most, of the FM-encoded 5.25" (exclusive of the 100 tpi format) formats use 48 tpi diskettes, so we've always recommended a 48 tpi drive to do the work. And I don't think we have a single system here with your SMC controller, although I think I still may have the datasheet somewhere here. It might have happened to us at some point with a customer, but we'd have assumed that his was one of the many controllers that don't handle FM at all, so our advice would have been the same--find another mahine to try. The problem may have been masked entirely by this. When doing your testing, remember to separate the non-FM capable controllers from the FM-capable-but-not-at 300K ones. Don Maslin and I did start doing a fairly exhaustive survey of LSI single-function diskette controllers to see what could handle FM and 128-byte sectored MFM, but that was long ago, and we didn't include the very new multi-I/O chips. Maybe it's time for a new census, although I wonder--many systems made since about 1995 won't support more than a single floppy anyway-- and I suspect that floppyless desktop PCs aren't that far off from becoming the rule (many are still shipped with a 34-pin header on the mobo just in case, but that won't stay around, I suspect). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 11:56:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:56:27 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <200703190933.54697.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FDCBC7.22337.A86204D@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703190933.54697.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <45FE5E4B.8218.CC27707@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2007 at 9:33, Lyle Bickley wrote: > For example, if one wants to kill a 1983 patent, and there is inadequate > written prior art available, one may be able to use 1983 (or earlier) > physical technology (hardware and software) to do it. > > In court, the opposition would "nail" any hardware/software presensted to a > jury that was not contemporaneous with or earlier than the patent being > litigated. Anything not original would "contaminate" an exhibit (because of > the potential for "cheating", etc.). That fact precludes the use of > emulation, simulation, etc. of old hardware/software on modern systems in > patent litigation. I can certainly appreciate that aspect, having done my time as an expert witness. "Just as good as" is much less convincing than "we've got the real thing right here". And the opposing side will make much of any opening you might give them, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. I was once called by a computer manufacturer's attorneys to ward off a possible class-action suit. The representative plaintiff that had been selected had put in a larger hard disk and added his own video card (the manufacturer sold the system with an integrated on-board model). The presence of the video card and some additional software was enough to prevent certification of the plaintiff as a class- action participant and the plaintiff's attorneys had to start all over again. Eventually, they burned enough money that they got tired of it and went on to sue someone else over the issue of battery life. It wasn't logical from a technical aspect--but the tort system rarely is. :) Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 12:00:16 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:00:16 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com><200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45FEC1A0.50206@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > I don't think I've ever seen such a sense of entitlement displayed as > Jim & Hexxie are putting forward. It's not entitlement, it's courtesy. I contribute to the community as best I can, and I would assume that others would do the same. I *want* many different mirrors of my work in case I perish tomorrow. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 12:10:30 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FEC1A0.50206@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 19, 7 12:00:16 pm" Message-ID: <200703191710.l2JHAVbj012078@floodgap.com> > > I don't think I've ever seen such a sense of entitlement displayed as > > Jim & Hexxie are putting forward. > > It's not entitlement, it's courtesy. I contribute to the community as > best I can, and I would assume that others would do the same. I *want* > many different mirrors of my work in case I perish tomorrow. It's courteous to encourage people to download everything off a site, whether they need it or not, in the name of "backup"? It's courteous to cost people tons of money in bandwidth, or time trying to outwit script kiddies with downloaders? It's courteous to tell people who put up stuff and use their hard disk and network space that they pay for that they need to have a bigger pipe and pay for that? Your definition of courtesy is obscene. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Dates on calendar are closer than they appear. ----------------------------- From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Mar 19 12:06:50 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:06:50 +0100 Subject: 11/45 works, but.... References: <200703191544.l2JFiftY008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F916@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Brad Parker Verzonden: ma 19-03-2007 16:44 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: 11/45 works, but.... "Jay West" wrote: ... >fault. So there is apparently something that the RL controller doesn't like >about the RX02 controller? The NPR jumper is removed for the two slots where Is the rx02 controller a dma device? I'm probably wrong but I don't think I've put it in slots where the NPR was removed. The RL11 sure is, but I thought the rx02 was "by hand", i.e. not a bus master. It probably doesn't matter, since if it isn't it probably loops NPR on the card. -brad Nope, RX02 uses NPR, thus CA1-CB1 must be cut. RX01 did not use NPR, it was programmed I/O. Nt sure if RX01 has the CA1-CB1 jumpered on-board ... there are a few (old) UNIBUS modules that do *not* have a jumper on those two contacts! If RT-11 runs, you can do .SH CONF and see the addresses/vectors. Perhaps there is something. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 19 12:12:19 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:12:19 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software Message-ID: <20070319171219.COMM25458.ibm64aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> I know better than to continue an OT thread, but there are a few points worth considering here. > Cool down, there. I was merely observing that connectivity (being > the highway) has trailed Moore's Laws (at least in the US) for quite > some time. True in the way Moore's Law is usually thought of. But when he stated his "law" Moore wasn't talking about speed; he was talking about the number of transistors. He foresaw the rate at which transistor sizes could be shrunk. Now, for a long time, making the transistors smaller made them faster and the overall CPU was also faster. That's less the case than it used to be, in part because the on-chip interconnects don't benefit as much. On top of that, we just kept making the discrepency between CPU and memory speeds greater and greater, putting more and more demand on the cache. So rather than using the additional transistors to create an implementation that's even faster (e.g. increased pipelining), we're now using them for additional cache and for multiple cores. And that's we where start to hit Ahmdal's Law. As the parallel guys have known for years, not all tasks parallelize nicely. There's probably not much to gain from implementing a word processor with multiple concurrent threads. So what does all this mean? Even though the physicists are clever enough to keep the "end of Moore's Law" always 10 years in the future (which I've been hearing for at least 20 yeasrs), Moore's law doesn't necessarily buy us the performance increase we're used to. And that's before we even look at software bloat. > Given that the bulk of the use for home PCs is net- > based; there will come a time that there is simply not enough > bandwidth *commonly* available to feed a petaflop machine. > > Regardless of the needs of home hobbyists, who don't drive production > of consumer PCs, most people I know of still use the box primarily > for email and web browsing. I don't consider amateur astronomy to > be in the "killer app" class. There is once class of user that's large enough and willing enough to fork out dollars that there's still a point in pushing performance as much as we can. That's the gamers, the guys that keep moving toward a day when their game is so immersive and so realistic that they can't always tell whether they're in the game or the real world. And it turns out that some of the things we need to do in those games do parallelize nicely. So I expect we will continue to see some of the continued growing overkill of system performance for uses like e-mail and browsing. But then the people who took the web and twisted it from being a solid information distribution world to an entertainment medium will find ways to use those cycles. Now I shall slink off and punish myself with many lashes of a wet noodle for contributing OT material. My only excuse is that I mentioned hearing about the end of Moore's law for 20 years :-) BLS From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Mar 19 12:17:59 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:17:59 +0100 Subject: 11/45 works, but.... References: <004401c76a35$6b7a5a20$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F917@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jay West Verzonden: ma 19-03-2007 15:46 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: 11/45 works, but.... > The 11/45 has booted an OS for the first time since I got it. RT11 came > right up. Interrupts are working. Awesome :) That's actually very satisfying > because the machine was in very rough shape when I got it. Very nice! [...snip...] >Another oddity reared it's head. The system was very stable with just the RL >controller. I then installed an RX02 (M8256) controller (and removed the NPR >jumper for that slot). I turned on the system but left the RL02 turned off. >The RX02 worked perfectly. Then I turned on the RL02. It powered up ok (no >fault) but when I spin it up I got a fault light. It is not the drive, nor >is it the pack. If I shut everything down and leave the RX02 drive powered >off (but controller still installed), the RL02 will come up fine and not >fault. So there is apparently something that the RL controller doesn't like >about the RX02 controller? The NPR jumper is removed for the two slots where >the RL and RX controllers are, but definitely present in all other slots. FWIW, I know that when RT11 runs and you remove the "READY" cap, changing it from drive #1 to, say, drive #2, RT11 freezes. Of course, no I/O activity is going on! Perhaps powering the RL02 has effects? What happens if you turn on the system and the RX02 _and_ RL02 are powered up at the same time? That's what I do with my 11/34C, and works fine. Power requirements for an RX02 and RL02 are not that high. Correct that the NPR jumper (CA1-CB1) is cut for RL11 and RX211 controller. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From james.rice at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 12:22:17 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:22:17 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703191710.l2JHAVbj012078@floodgap.com> References: <45FEC1A0.50206@oldskool.org> <200703191710.l2JHAVbj012078@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <af4d09740703191022x28a79c37ue4201300368beaac@mail.gmail.com> On 3/19/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: > > It's courteous to tell people who put up stuff and use their hard disk and > network space that they pay for that they need to have a bigger pipe and > pay > for that? > > Since my employer lets me host in our server room at no charge, I feel it's only right that I minimize my use of their bandwidth. I have had several people inform me that I should either speed up the download for them or pay for hosting to make downloads faster to avoid wasting their time. Most of those Id10T's end up on the ban list. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 19 12:17:37 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:17:37 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software Message-ID: <20070319171737.CRYC25458.ibm64aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Sorry if this comes through twice. My mailer is acting up. I know better than to continue an OT thread, but there are a few points worth considering here. > Cool down, there. I was merely observing that connectivity (being > the highway) has trailed Moore's Laws (at least in the US) for quite > some time. True in the way Moore's Law is usually thought of. But when he stated his "law" Moore wasn't talking about speed; he was talking about the number of transistors. He foresaw the rate at which transistor sizes could be shrunk. Now, for a long time, making the transistors smaller made them faster and the overall CPU was also faster. That's less the case than it used to be, in part because the on-chip interconnects don't benefit as much. On top of that, we just kept making the discrepency between CPU and memory speeds greater and greater, putting more and more demand on the cache. So rather than using the additional transistors to create an implementation that's even faster (e.g. increased pipelining), we're now using them for additional cache and for multiple cores. And that's we where start to hit Ahmdal's Law. As the parallel guys have known for years, not all tasks parallelize nicely. There's probably not much to gain from implementing a word processor with multiple concurrent threads. So what does all this mean? Even though the physicists are clever enough to keep the "end of Moore's Law" always 10 years in the future (which I've been hearing for at least 20 yeasrs), Moore's law doesn't necessarily buy us the performance increase we're used to. And that's before we even look at software bloat. > Given that the bulk of the use for home PCs is net- > based; there will come a time that there is simply not enough > bandwidth *commonly* available to feed a petaflop machine. > > Regardless of the needs of home hobbyists, who don't drive production > of consumer PCs, most people I know of still use the box primarily > for email and web browsing. I don't consider amateur astronomy to > be in the "killer app" class. There is once class of user that's large enough and willing enough to fork out dollars that there's still a point in pushing performance as much as we can. That's the gamers, the guys that keep moving toward a day when their game is so immersive and so realistic that they can't always tell whether they're in the game or the real world. And it turns out that some of the things we need to do in those games do parallelize nicely. So I expect we will continue to see some of the continued growing overkill of system performance for uses like e-mail and browsing. But then the people who took the web and twisted it from being a solid information distribution world to an entertainment medium will find ways to use those cycles. Now I shall slink off and punish myself with many lashes of a wet noodle for contributing OT material. My only excuse is that I mentioned hearing about the end of Moore's law for 20 years :-) BLS From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 13:01:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:01:17 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <20070319171737.CRYC25458.ibm64aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20070319171737.CRYC25458.ibm64aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <45FE6D7D.3633.CFDD0E8@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2007 at 12:17, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > True in the way Moore's Law is usually thought of. But when > he stated his "law" Moore wasn't talking about speed; he > was talking about the number of transistors. No argument there, but regardless of how you might want to slice it, net bandwidth increases still don't correllate with any sort of a Moore's law rate. > There is once class of user that's large enough and willing > enough to fork out dollars that there's still a point in pushing > performance as much as we can. That's the gamers, the > guys that keep moving toward a day when their game is > so immersive and so realistic that they can't always tell > whether they're in the game or the real world. And it turns > out that some of the things we need to do in those games > do parallelize nicely. So I expect we will continue to see > some of the continued growing overkill of system performance > for uses like e-mail and browsing. But then the people who > took the web and twisted it from being a solid information > distribution world to an entertainment medium will find > ways to use those cycles. I don't disagree with you there, but observe that the tendency in gaming has been more toward the dedicated-use boxes, such as the PS3 and Xbox 360. It's simply more cost-effective to leave out all of the extra stuff that folks have come to expect with a desktop/laptop PC and repackage the result in a game console. That gaming will push the processor-capability envelope is pretty obvious, but how much of that will make its way to the desk- or laptop is a matter of conjecture. If a major player would launch a successful effort to get gigabit ethernet into everyone's home at an affordable cost, I'll readily agree that the whole matter of "how much computer is enough" is subject to drastic revision. Okay, enough OT rambling! Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 19 13:14:45 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:14:45 -0400 Subject: 11/45 works, but.... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:06:50 BST." <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F916@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <200703191814.l2JIEjrZ015169@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > >Nope, RX02 uses NPR, thus CA1-CB1 must be cut. >RX01 did not use NPR, it was programmed I/O. Nt sure if RX01 has the >CA1-CB1 jumpered on-board ... there are a few (old) UNIBUS modules >that do *not* have a jumper on those two contacts! ah, that's it. I have an RX01 controller. oops. sorry. (donation accepted! :-) -brad From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Mar 19 13:17:25 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:17:25 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C492@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: The background drives are probably 607's or 609's--the photo's too fuzzy for positive ID--but my money'd be on 607's which were far more common (I loved those drives and despised the 657 "cost reduced" replacements). Unfortunately, there are no mainframe cabinets anywhere in the photo-- what you see in the foreground are 3000-series controllers, but that doesn't mean a thing, as both the 3000 and 6000 series used 3000 peripherals for tape., card and printing. The 6000 used a 6681/2 channell converter, which then would interface to, say, a 3423 tape controller. The cabinet sitting next to the 415 card punch in the middle foreground is probably a 3447 punch controller. Maybe Billy Petit can recognize some of the cabinets--it's far too fuzzy to make out any numbers. Cheers, Chuck Billy responded: It is hard to tell much. The tape drives are definitely 606 or 607's. I'd lean toward 606 because the lights for density seem to be the 200/556 configuration, not the 200/556/800 set. The cabinets in front are unusual. The one on the right has a window in the top (see the shiny plate) and that was only done for printers. The one on the left also has two rows of lights, instead of one and that was only done on early printers (non-train) and one of the early disk file controllers. So my guess is that these two cabinets are dual printers. The photo is blurry but it looks like two of the tape units are set to Unit 4, which means a dual tape controller. Main frame is impossible to tell from these limited bits and pieces. Like Chuck says, 3100 to 6600. The number of tapes suggests a bigger system. Billy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 13:18:48 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:18:48 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftparchives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <BAY138-F28816F788E0D11CB0A6A90A3760@phx.gbl> References: <BAY138-F28816F788E0D11CB0A6A90A3760@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <45FED408.8030406@yahoo.co.uk> dwight elvey wrote: > I thought I'd add a little here. One thing that is missing. We'd need > some way to keep it running beyond when we are gone. There should > be a trust setup. Hmmm, I wonder if it can be engineered such that mirroring the information will do that job? (i.e. sites are free to come and go - providing there's a mirror active *somewhere* then it might not be a problem). Although yes, worrying about what happens over time seems sensible - although maybe that's a task for site owners to sort out individually, rather than there being some "central policy"? > It should have at least two or three people maintaining > is and willing to deal with the tax issues. Tax issues are probably largely a US issue :-) In other words outside the scope of any archive/collection... > I tend to agree that it shouldn't force format. Dave's open format is > vary well thought out and his tool is good but there is legacy data > that would need to be converted. I'd disagree on the *need* to convert. There may be cases where migration's desirable as/when new formats are available / become popular - but it shouldn't be a given. If the format does the job and the tools are still widely available [1] then there's little reason to convert formats. [1] Actually "archival tool" is probably a class of data that should be made available / distributed / mirrored in its own right. After all, the people "owning" the data at participating sites are most likely to be the ones who recognise the need to make the tools available too. > As an example, the disk image > data I have for the Polymorphic 8813 is in the format used by the > Polymorphic software to move disk images through modems to other > Polymorphic machines. It does currently lack a method to restore it > to a machine that has no boot floppy ( over time I hope to fix that ). See, that probably is a good candidate for archive format migration - *but* it's still very useful to have the data out there and available now, even if it's in a slightly sub-optimal format. Something's better than nothing... > Of course, there should always be some form of readme with each > group of files explaining how to use the files. In the past, this has been > one of the hardest things to figure out on random archives. I hear ya. I'm not quite sure how to tackle that one given a distributed archive approach. Maybe a user should be expected to be able to type in something like "reading foobar archives" into the search facility and to get a document describing the format back. But I guess for any class of data like "floppy disk image" or "magtape image" part of the metadata associated with that data (entered when the data is "published") should be the name / version of the tool used to create that image. That way at least every file gets tagged, with the assumption that the documentation for that format is also reachable via the search engine. > These readme's may need updating as time goes by. Things like the fact > that some tool needs to run under a particular OS and not some future OS > that may be more common, needs to be passed on. Is that not a problem for whoever's maintaining the tools? They're the ones who dictate what platforms their tools will run on - it's not necessarily the job of the archive maintainers to know this; they simply record what tool (and hence what file format) was used to create their images. The burden's on the individual users to search for something that will understand that format, and then filter out results to get something that will work with their particular hardware combination. e.g. I might have a site with a bunch of Superbrain floppies on, all in Imagedisk format. It's my job as maintainer of that archive (and participating in the "global" distributed archive) to say what tool I used to create those images when I publish them - but it's Dave's job as Imagedisk maintainer to dictate what other platforms Imagedisk might run on now or in the future. Sure, I might be helpful and (with Dave's permission) put a few different copies of Imagedisk on the site too and publish those so people can find them - but I don't need to do any maintenance myself every time a new version of Imagedisk comes out. > It is hard to tell what bit > of information that is assumed today may be key for extracting useful > data in the future. Indeed - and it's easy to say "record as much as possible". Problem then is that it discourages archive owners from publishing content simply because it's time-consuming to enter the metadata for the items that they're making available. Getting the balance right is probably going to be tricky. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 13:24:03 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:24:03 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FE56C6.13720.CA514C4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FDB5F8.12675.A30F007@cclist.sydex.com>, <45FE8439.1000100@comcast.net> <45FE56C6.13720.CA514C4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45FED543.60401@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Certainly, today, I can purchase a Bugatti Veyron, but I might have > finding a palce to open it up. Someone did just that in the UK the other week and wrecked it within a few hours of owning it, I seem to recall. Oops :-) > limited.l The same evenutally must apply to a PC--yes, you can > have the power, but if you're only offered dialup service, what are > you going to do with it. There will be no mass market for the ultra- > powered PC, so while it might be available, it will be not be the > model in common use. Problem is it doesn't seem to work like that. a) Human nature is such that typically people want to have the best, even if they don't need it. That's utter stupidity, but it's the way most people seem to work. b) OS software seems hell-bent on pushing the hardware boundaries regardless of what the applications are doing and whether any useful functionality is added. I suspect those two have always been the case - it's just that the gap between what people *need* and what extras they get over and above that is widening every year, so it's a lot more obvious now than it once was. From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 19 15:40:17 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:40:17 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FEA21F.8000203@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703191944.l2JJirfW008989@mail2.magma.ca> > > What I am thinking of is several key volenteers positioned so as > > to cover the major geographic areas who would be willing to set > > up the necessary software and equipment to handle as many > > different media types as possible, and provide a service to > > nearby collectors to turn media into images, and to turn images > > into media. Working with others in the project, the images > > could be transmitted and shared so that any particuylar system > > disk can be accessed from anywhere. > > That much makes sense to me. I've been steadily collecting various relevant > odds and ends for the past couple of years with a view to doing just that - > various drives, controllers, tape units etc. > > In order to spread this around as much as possible, we could probably do with > some "style guide" documents produced by some of the list gurus as to what > hardware works with what etc. (e.g. summarising things like the responses to > my recent question about hooking an 8" floppy drive up to a PC). That will > hopefully encourage more people to participate. I agree - however, although platform specifc hardware will be a necessity for some data types, I would also like to encourage platforn independance where possible - it doesn't work too well if you are the key guy in your area, and you can't make a disk someone needs - ImageDisk goes part way to solving this, but there's still lots of things it can't do - we might want to include the Catweasel in our list of standard tools (or a similar device we might design ourselves in our list of standard tools). > (There's certainly been a lot of knowledge shared on this list in the past > about recovering old tapes too - it'd be nice to see that written up somewhere > "central") > > Hmmm, it's not really a FAQ, but there's perhaps scope for something like a > "classiccmp.org knowledge base" containing info like this? wiki? > > = How to make the archive available > > Another tricky question, which has two major components, legality > > and accessability. > > I still think the key here is distribution. Allow people who have specialist > knowledge in a particular area to run their own little corner of the web as > they see fit - but they also "publish" what they've made available through > some defined mechanism. In addition, they present some unified way of > searching across *all* participating sites for content. > > To extend that concept a little further (thinking on my feet here), how's > about we say that each "published" bit of data can be marked with different > levels: > > "Offline" (say pending copyright issue resolution!) > Free for download (i.e. available to all users) > Available for mirror (to specific peers) > Available for mirror (to anyone wishing to make a mirror of the item) > > Obvious benefits: > > 1) The "specialists" in any given area retain control over what they have > available, the format that it's in, and the "look and feel" of whatever frills > surround the actual data. Agreed to some extent, however I want to see the content distributed - perhaps everyone directly involved in the project should maintain a private mirror of the other parts. Theres also the issue that someone who is great at collecting and archiving material doesn have the ability to host a site (dial-up etc.) - So I can see that one site might host multiple peoples contributions. But these are things that would be worked out by the individuals involved. > 2) There's no unwieldy central repository, with corresponding high cost of > maintenance. By "central repository", I don't (necessarily) mean a huge website and/or FTP with everything contained on it - but I would like to see a central resource where people can begin a search for a specific need.To me this seems one of the major benefits of a group project - concentration of information. > 3) Mirroring is more controllable. > > 4) Searching (from a user POV) can be flexible and tailored to certain > pre-defined "classes" of content. > > 5) Copyright is at least a little less of an issue; if someone publishes > something that violates copyright, it's far more likely to come down on their > own head than jeaporising the distributed archive as a whole. > > 6) Dictating a "common archival format" that everyone agrees on probably > isn't possible, for various reasons. Look at what happened with Sellam's > efforts. However, dictating a common set of different content types (disk > image, documentation scan etc.), and the metadata fields that they can be > searched for with, is a heck of a lot easier! It would be advantagous to agree on formats where it is appropriate, but only when so, and It may make sense to use multiple formats in some cases - for example, having Catweasel images of disks that can only be made on a specific platform might avoid the chicken-and-egg thing where you want to help someone, but you don't have the system, and he doesn't have a bootable disk to launch the resident client. > 7) Admin is a lot easier, as every participating site owner is an admin of > the stuff that *they* make available, rather than having one person (or a > team) trying to look after everything - Al can probably comment on what a > headache this is! > > Downsides: > > 1) Probably needs a web interface at least for the searching (but that's > not to stop someone making the actual data available over FTP or whatever, and > the search interface code could be produced in a variety of languages - PHP, > ASP etc. - to provide flexibility) The only real complaint I've heard about a web interface is that it loses the file dates - IMHO an os file date is a fragile information vessel at best - much better to record relavent dates in the metadata associated with the archive. > 2) The actual database of "what's where" probably still needs to be > central, because distributing that across multiple sites (ala DNS) is likely > impractical, plus the majority of websites probably do have some server-side > scripting ability, but not necessarily any kind of coherent database support) Yes, exactly what I was trying to state a couple of paragraphs back Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 19 14:47:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <200703191458.l2JEwW9H030734@mail2.magma.ca> References: <200703191458.l2JEwW9H030734@mail2.magma.ca> Message-ID: <20070319124511.O30647@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > > Don't you want to be using a 55B whish is a real 40 track drive? > Yes - Yes --- didn't anyone read my next posting made within about > 10 mins of the first one where I indicated this was a typo (yeah, I know.. > people answer in the order they read them). Sorry, I replied with correction before I received your correction. The consistency of the typo in two places made me worry that maybe I was misinterpreting something else :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 14:49:34 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:49:34 -0700 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <45FE5A7E.2957.CB39DAA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <BAY138-F30A0F80AF89767B114AE18A3760@phx.gbl> >From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> ---snip--- > >Maybe it's time for a new census, although I wonder--many systems >made since about 1995 won't support more than a single floppy anyway-- >and I suspect that floppyless desktop PCs aren't that far off from >becoming the rule (many are still shipped with a 34-pin header on the >mobo just in case, but that won't stay around, I suspect). > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Chuck Your correct, floppies are on the way out. Media conversion will become more of an issue in the next 10 to 15 years. Right now, I have a machine that is one of the last laptops to have both CDROM and floppy that I use for reading email and downloads. None of the new ones have floppies. I take my 3.5 floppy to a machine that can handle 5.25 and FM. I still find it easier to do serial transfers to get to 8 inch disk but serial ports are on their way out as well. Windows has just lanched Vista. How much support for drivers will there be for this OS, if past history is any indication. I get the feeling that at some point, the only interface left that seems to be common is paper and keyboard. Just not sure what to do in the future. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 14:51:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:51:23 -0700 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C492@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C492@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45FE874B.29290.D629F96@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2007 at 11:17, Billy Pettit wrote: > It is hard to tell much. The tape drives are definitely 606 or 607's. I'd > lean toward 606 because the lights for density seem to be the 200/556 > configuration, not the 200/556/800 set. Yeah, you're obviously better at seeing through blurs than I am! > The cabinets in front are unusual. The one on the right has a window in the > top (see the shiny plate) and that was only done for printers. The one on > the left also has two rows of lights, instead of one and that was only done > on early printers (non-train) and one of the early disk file controllers. I'd concluded in a later message that we were probably looking at 501's in the foreground, since on the right-side one, you can see the top glass. But I guess neither of us wins Richard's contest! I figure that you'd almost have to know the room itself or someone in the photo to be able to figure out what the system was. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 19 15:51:10 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:51:10 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftparchives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <BAY138-F28816F788E0D11CB0A6A90A3760@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <200703191955.l2JJtk1N014279@mail4.magma.ca> > Hi > I thought I'd add a little here. One thing that is missing. We'd need > some way to keep it running beyond when we are gone. There should > be a trust setup. It should have at least two or three people maintaining > is and willing to deal with the tax issues. I don't know about that - we would have to see how it goes, but if enough people are involved, individuals can come and go but the group continues. The whole idea is to NOT make it dependant on any individual. I can only see a problem arising if "everyone loses interest", in which case we would have to revisit the thinking behind doing it in the first place... > I tend to agree that it shouldn't force format. Dave's open format is > vary well thought out and his tool is good but there is legacy data > that would need to be converted. As an example, the disk image > data I have for the Polymorphic 8813 is in the format used by the > Polymorphic software to move disk images through modems to other > Polymorphic machines. It does currently lack a method to restore it > to a machine that has no boot floppy ( over time I hope to fix that ). > Other images are not even as floppy images. As an example, all the > data that I have for my Nicolet floppy disk system is images on > paper tape data ( in files on my PC ). > And of course, I also have cassette data images. > Some people like to store cassette images as audio files. I like to store > the actual data. I have done this for my Poly88 stuff and have a bootstrap > method to get things started without a first tape. > I also have images in a format that I'm just too lazy to convert. As an > example, > the images I made for my H89. These also have some legacy issues, as > my tool was used to create the images for the hard sectored images > on SEBHC. I've included a method to bootstrap without having a first > disk. One concept that I really want to promote is that people involved in the project can provide material to people who are unable to recreate the medium themselves - in much the same way Don sent out physical disks. Theres a lot of people who simply can't deal with how to get an image back to physical media. In line with this idea, I would hope that the key people would be fairly well equiped to handle varous formats. With the equipment available, we could (over time of course) convert existing data to the more general formats (where appropriate) - this would not be mandated in any way, but it would be a something that individuals can contribute that would benefit the others. > Of course, there should always be some form of readme with each > group of files explaining how to use the files. In the past, this has been > one of the hardest things to figure out on random archives. Many times, > I've seen images with no information on what to do with them. This > has happened because the directory was copied from someplace without > the support. Each directory should have at least a simple readme describing > how the images were made and what tool should be used to recover > them. Just a readme at the top directory is not enough. The top directory > may get separated. A readme is minimum. > These readme's may need updating as time goes by. Things like the fact > that some tool needs to run under a particular OS and not some future OS > that may be more common, needs to be passed on. It is hard to tell what bit > of information that is assumed today may be key for extracting useful > data in the future. > It must be a living archive. Absolutely - part of the job will be to document the details. The creation, collection, archival and documentation of appropriate tools is also key - this is NOT a small job. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Mar 19 14:59:45 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:59:45 +0100 Subject: Nat Wadsworth contact ? Scelbal status ? Message-ID: <45FEEBB1.2040605@bluewin.ch> Anybody knows of the whereabouts of Nat Wadsworth ? On a related issue, anybody knows on the copyright status of Scelbal ? Jos From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 19 15:56:25 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:56:25 -0500 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <45FE5A7E.2957.CB39DAA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703191035.l2JAZBFO013171@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703192001.l2JK11Fc022096@mail4.magma.ca> > When doing your testing, remember to separate the non-FM capable > controllers from the FM-capable-but-not-at 300K ones. Don Maslin and > I did start doing a fairly exhaustive survey of LSI single-function > diskette controllers to see what could handle FM and 128-byte > sectored MFM, but that was long ago, and we didn't include the very > new multi-I/O chips. Do you still have the data you collected. This could be useful. ' > Maybe it's time for a new census, although I wonder--many systems > made since about 1995 won't support more than a single floppy anyway-- > and I suspect that floppyless desktop PCs aren't that far off from > becoming the rule (many are still shipped with a 34-pin header on the > mobo just in case, but that won't stay around, I suspect). I think it is, and I plan to write some tools to make it fairly easy for people to test these capabilities. Modern machines are rapidly getting to the point where they will not be useful for diskette imaging, however knowing what old machines to look for is equally valuable - P1 class and earlier machines can be had for "Free" - but who wants to collect a big pile of boxes and take the time to scrounge up memory, drives misc other bits, and get it running only to test it and find it's yet another brain-dead FDC. If you know what to be looking for it could save a a lot fo time... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Mar 19 15:01:22 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:01:22 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C493@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: Hi Chuck, I think this is a separate issue, what to do to protect the physical artifacts in our various collections - In this sense, diskettes are no different than computers, S-100 cards or any other physical thing that you consider valuable/important enough to want to insure it's survival bayond your own ability to care for it. Each of us must put in place whatever arrangements we feel are appropriate. [snip] Physical artifacts are a topic for another discussion. I would suggest that at the very least we place the following information somewhere where it will be available to anyone with the unfortunate task of having to clean our our basements: - And indication that the material is important and should not be contributed to landfill. (If you have valuable items in your collection, I assume you would identify those for your estate). - Names and contact information of knowlegable people who can help in it's disposition. If nothing else, information about how to contact this list. Regards, Dave Sorry Dave, but I disagree with you; at least in my personal case. I'm retiring in 3 months and my number one object is to clean out the garage. When I die, my family has no interest and will ship it all to a land fill unless there is something specific they know is promised to someone. So my top priority is not to copy the files and get them to an archive. Top priority is to physically ship them to someone who gives a damn. I've been giving Al bits and pieces, but by the end of this year, I'm talking truck loads - more than he can absorb. Some of it will go to eBay just because of the value of it - with no income, money is more precious. I've promised Al I would sell nothing until he can scan it. But rarer items go to the auction block. I've no choice; the money will be needed. Software is tougher. If it was common, I've already thrown most of it away. But there are still piles and boxes of floppies and CDs. If Al wants them, they are his. I'll put a notice on this list and give the rest away if they are wanted. If not, they go to the dump. I'm not going to bother to sort and list hundreds of floppies. So I'm doing part of what you mentioned. But with thousands of items, it's not possible to make a detailed list. The more valuable items are identified. But the rest goes as land fill unless I do something ahead of time. Hence being my top priority. You youngsters don't have to face this for a while. But I've seen too many book collections lost or destroyed. Lingering or putting off these decisions usually result in total loss of the collection. A bitch isn't it? Save items 40-50 years; then have to get rid of to see that they maintain some overall usefulness. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 15:07:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:07:41 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftparchives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FED408.8030406@yahoo.co.uk> References: <BAY138-F28816F788E0D11CB0A6A90A3760@phx.gbl>, <45FED408.8030406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45FE8B1D.24103.D718A70@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2007 at 13:18, Jules Richardson wrote: > Indeed - and it's easy to say "record as much as possible". Problem then is > that it discourages archive owners from publishing content simply because it's > time-consuming to enter the metadata for the items that they're making > available. Getting the balance right is probably going to be tricky. I thought I'd share a little tidbit here. On floppy conversion jobs, it's rare for us to use a PC diskette controller. I've long found that using a catweasel or similar flux-transition capture tool results in a much higher data recovery rate--and it's rare that I have to read a diskette more than once in order to determine the format or recording method. This can be an issue with very old diskettes, which can degrade with each read. When we return converted data a customer, we'll also generally include the flux state map as documentation. The needed space on a CD or DVD usually comes nearly "free" and there's a permanent record. I don't know if FTP space will ever be cheap enough that recording flux maps on them for public access will ever be economical, but it's certainly something to think about if preserving "images" and not just converted data becomes important. FWIW, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 19 16:09:13 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:09:13 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <200703191944.l2JJirfW008989@mail2.magma.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703191944.l2JJirfW008989@mail2.magma.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070319150648.06512d98@mail> I think I missed the definitive conclusion to the Maslin story. I tried searching the archives but never quite found the ending. Did his widow simply toss everything? Links to the message thread at http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ would be appreciated. - John From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 19 16:09:38 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:09:38 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftparchives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FED408.8030406@yahoo.co.uk> References: <BAY138-F28816F788E0D11CB0A6A90A3760@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <200703192014.l2JKEDoI007823@mail4.magma.ca> > > These readme's may need updating as time goes by. Things like the fact > > that some tool needs to run under a particular OS and not some future OS > > that may be more common, needs to be passed on. > > Is that not a problem for whoever's maintaining the tools? They're the ones > who dictate what platforms their tools will run on - it's not necessarily the > job of the archive maintainers to know this; they simply record what tool (and > hence what file format) was used to create their images. The burden's on the > individual users to search for something that will understand that format, and > then filter out results to get something that will work with their particular > hardware combination. Can't resist a chance to climb up on my facvorite soapbox - much more important than the tools, is details and docuemtnation on the archive format. If 100 years from now i86 PC's have all declared dangerous materials (brain damage etc.), and can't be had - you might not be able to run my tools - but given an incentive to put some effort into it, the information is there to allow you to use other means. (how that information will survive is another question - but at least I've made it available which is the best I can do). The last thing we want to do is lock up the archive in proprietary undocumented formats. > e.g. I might have a site with a bunch of Superbrain floppies on, all in > Imagedisk format. It's my job as maintainer of that archive (and participating > in the "global" distributed archive) to say what tool I used to create those > images when I publish them - but it's Dave's job as Imagedisk maintainer to > dictate what other platforms Imagedisk might run on now or in the future. I think "dictate" is a string word - If someone wants to develop the tool for another platform, I would be very supportive - however this hasn't happened so far. > Sure, I might be helpful and (with Dave's permission) put a few different > copies of Imagedisk on the site too and publish those so people can find them > - but I don't need to do any maintenance myself every time a new version of > Imagedisk comes out. The sites should carry what tools and documentation can be made available (ultimately ability to access the archived data will deternine it's acceptance). > Indeed - and it's easy to say "record as much as possible". Problem then is > that it discourages archive owners from publishing content simply because it's > time-consuming to enter the metadata for the items that they're making > available. Getting the balance right is probably going to be tricky. I'm not sure I agree with that. You don't need much metadata to be 1000% more useful than none. I would not expect complete documentation on the tool and archive formats to be included in each data image - but the type of system it is for, the name and version of the tool, and a description of what is in the image should be enough to get you going. People pay $$$ for a CD that comes in an empty box with a little paper saying "This is XXX put the CD in your drive" - surely we can do at least as good as that. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Mar 19 15:24:37 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:24:37 -0700 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C497@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: What is a suitable replacement for CR2? It's hard to read seeming as though it is missing a chunk. CR1 looks to be the same - but I read it as a 1N4smudge3, which is rather hard to cross reference. I found the schematic in the manual, but not a parts list. I'll keep looking, but I figured I would ask the experts here. Unless this was some kind of coincidence, I think I need to double check my 20ma power supply. Thanks! -Ian Billy: I think it is an 1N4003. I remember losing this diode sometimes when debugging new interfaces. I always changed it with a 1N4004. The resistor often burned the PCB beneath it; looks like crap. So I would replace it with a higher wattage wire wound resistor and suspend it away from the PCB by .5 cm or so. Billy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 15:30:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:30:40 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftparchives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FE8B1D.24103.D718A70@cclist.sydex.com> References: <BAY138-F28816F788E0D11CB0A6A90A3760@phx.gbl>, <45FED408.8030406@yahoo.co.uk> <45FE8B1D.24103.D718A70@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45FEF2F0.9030205@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know if FTP space will ever be cheap enough that recording > flux maps on them for public access will ever be economical, but it's > certainly something to think about if preserving "images" and not > just converted data becomes important. I think the key thing to aim for is to record as much as necessary such that it would be possible to recreate the original media (as far as the original hardware sees it) if desired. In other words, record flux traversals where required (because some arcane copy protection / validation scheme needs it, say, or flux traversals actually allow easier recreation of the original media) - but in the vast majority of cases a simple structured bunch of data blocks is good enough for the machine to see it as though it were an original copy. Note that I say "aim for" - personally I'd like the data out there sooner rather than later, even if it's in a sub-optimal format; it can always be improved later as and when time (and the original media) permits. Something's generally better than nothing... Plus of course there's a real danger we'll focus on floppy disks here at the expense of all else. Just a reminder not to lose sight of all the other forms of media out there that are equally as deserving of preservation! :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 15:36:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:36:36 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C493@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C493@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45FE91E4.6578.D8C01E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2007 at 13:01, Billy Pettit wrote: > A bitch isn't it? Save items 40-50 years; then have to get rid of to see > that they maintain some overall usefulness. It seems to me that not many people on this list have had the experience of disposing of a parent's estate, particularly when said parent lived in a distant town. My mother-in-law passed away a few years ago, just a few months shy of her 100th birthday. When her husband died, she did nothing to dispose of his possessions, so it fell to my lovely wife to dispose of the whole lot--two thousand miles away in a small farming town. She had about a week to do all of this and get the house ready for sale. To her credit, she was able to donate many of the house furnishings to a local community center (a tax writeoff is still better than the landfill) and, as my father-in-law was a historian, could get one of the professors from the state university to spend a few hours cherry-picking her dad's collection of books and documents. He filled his car, signed an itemized receipt and left. What he didn't take went into the landfill, as there wasn't even a recycling program available there. And there was a lot of stuff--her dad had a mania to keep everything--even old grade books from 60 years ago. This is the way things happen most often. As for myself, I've been able to specify that the house will be sold; undeveloped property will be deeded to a local conservation group and all other assets will be liquidated and the proceeds used to enrich a school grant program that my wife and I started. We even have organizations who, in exchange for a contribution, are willing to see to our pets, should we have any. If you want computer-related stuff to be preserved, then you need to have an organization with legal status and resources to do so. Specifying that material will be donated to "someone who might care" just doesn't work. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Mar 19 15:38:51 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:38:51 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Hex Star wrote: The Russian comment is that if someone here does speak russian it would be possible to get Russian hosting in Russia which would prevent us from having to deal with US copyright issues and thus be able to upload whatever we want should some hosting actually get setup, I have 20GB+ of mac files I'd be willing to upload to the archive :-) Billy: I was going to avoid commenting on Hex Star chiding the list for not giving him all our files. But this is too much - Proposing to use a criminal to get around copyright laws. There is enough bull shit going on right now with the US using criminal governments to torture prisoners so that US laws won't be broken. Is that now the modus operandi of US citizens? This is going too far - proposing that we deliberately break the law so this young fellow can get all the software he wants. Isn't it about time to end this thread and ask Hex Star to stop harassing the list? And Hex Star, please learn how to write a sentence. Your messages are almost incoherent - long rambling lines of text with no beginning or end. Surely your keyboard has a Shift key and a period key; please use them and state your ideas more succinctly. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 15:48:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:48:58 -0700 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <200703192001.l2JK11Fc022096@mail4.magma.ca> References: <200703191035.l2JAZBFO013171@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45FE5A7E.2957.CB39DAA@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703192001.l2JK11Fc022096@mail4.magma.ca> Message-ID: <45FE94CA.28582.D975481@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2007 at 15:56, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > Do you still have the data you collected. This could be useful. I'd have to go back to checking old BBS email--yeah, that's how far back it was. Dial-in BBS, no internet. Since scrounging old PC's with ISA diskette controllers is getting into "real antque" status, I don't know how useful the information will be. The note that I made on the Intel mobos was only because I had 'em and tested them. I've also got some roughly contemporary Amptron VIA chipset boards that don't do FM at all. Cheers, Chuck From rmay635703a at yahoo.com Mon Mar 19 15:56:59 2007 From: rmay635703a at yahoo.com (Ry May) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Source for 1Mx4 DIPP 20pin DRAM In-Reply-To: <200703191803.l2JI2U1E082881@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <572936.58869.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am in desparate need as are others of that type of RAM sadly no one seems to solder the surface mount to carriers anymore and EVERYONE wants you to buy $500 minimum. Is there anyone out there who supplies this stuff anymore? --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 16:02:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:02:51 -0400 Subject: Source for 1Mx4 DIPP 20pin DRAM In-Reply-To: <572936.58869.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <572936.58869.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45FEFA7B.8000308@gmail.com> Ry May wrote: > I am in desparate need as are others of that type of RAM sadly no one seems to solder the surface mount to carriers anymore and EVERYONE wants you to buy $500 minimum. > > Is there anyone out there who supplies this stuff anymore? Did you try the electronics supply houses? Peace... Sridhar From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Mar 19 16:15:16 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:15:16 -0000 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <005801c76a6b$b2134240$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Billy Pettit wrote: > I was going to avoid commenting on Hex Star chiding the list for not > giving him all our files. But this is too much - Proposing to use a > criminal to get around copyright laws. I hesitate to get involved in such a contentious issue, but I think you've misunderstood his intent. The putative guy (or gal) in Russia cannot be a criminal: if he is then you've chosen the wrong country and need a quick s/Russia/Elsewhere/g. The guys uploading the software are (I assume) breaking US copyright laws. Then again the guys making stuff available of the existing FTP sites are presumably breaking exactly the same laws to at least the same extent. (Presumably if they are also hosting an archive and are within the purview of US law then they're breaking even more US laws). > This is going too far - proposing that we deliberately break the law > so this young fellow can get all the software he wants. Isn't it > about time to end this thread and ask Hex Star to stop harassing the > list? If you send stuff to someone so that they can scan it and make it available on the net (or in any other form), are you breaking the law? I can see why Hex Star's comments might rub you up the wrong way, but he's young (or at least he claims he is, and his sentence structure does back him up in his claim :-)) so I'd cut him some slack. At least he might still be archiving stuff after we're all gone. Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.14/727 - Release Date: 19/03/2007 11:49 From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Mar 19 16:17:24 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:17:24 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <A690BCDC-58FE-4DEC-80A2-A77396730ECD@loomcom.com> On Mar 17, 2007, at 8:32 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > [...] > = How to store the archive > I am a strong believer in preservation of the physical media as > historic artifacts, however I believe it is also vital to preserve > the data separately in modern formats, for several reasons: > - It allows easy replication and mirroring in multiple locations. > This will help insure that the material is not lost in the > future through any single failure point (fire, flood, death, > loss-of-interest - all of these things and more can wipe out > a single physical archive). > - It removes dependance on specific (and usually obsolete) > physical media. No need to put wear and tear on the original > artifacts, and allows for contingencies in the event that the > original devices become inoperative. > - Allows for easy sharing and movement of the data. > - Allows everything to be tracked in a central repository > (appropriately mirrored of course). > - Allows anyone who wants to set up the required equipment > to have complete access to the repository content. > [...] Digital preservation is actually my day job. I work for the LOCKSS project at Stanford University (http://www.lockss.org/). LOCKSS is a distributed peer-to-peer preservation system for electronic journals used by libraries around the world. Basically, each library runs one or more boxes that collect e-journals, and all the boxes participate in audits with each other to make sure that content is not lost or damaged. They establish and maintain an "Authoritative Copy" of the content that all the boxes keep locally. If the original e-journal's publisher has disappeared, the boxes will repair missing content from each other. Best of all, it's entirely open source using the BSD license and some LGPL components. I've thought about using LOCKSS for software and documentation preservation, but unfortunately it's really not ideal for the job. As I mentioned, it was designed with the fairly narrow goal of providing libraries and institutions an easy way to preserve electronic journals, so it would require a lot of hacking to make it useful for something like a software archive. Still, I think the general principal should apply here. LOCKSS stands for "Lots Of Copies Keep Stuff Safe", and that should certainly be the goal of any digital archiving system. Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there as part of the discussion. I'd be glad to help out on this: I have a server, disk space, and bandwidth, and I'd like to see it used for this kind of thing. At a minimum, I should probably start mirroring http://bitsavers.org/ ! -Seth From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 16:30:49 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:30:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <45FE91E4.6578.D8C01E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <435303.48421.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: It seems to me that not many people on this list have had the experience of disposing of a parent's estate, particularly when said parent lived in a distant town. My mother-in-law passed away a few years ago, just a few months shy of her 100th birthday. When her husband died, she did nothing to dispose of his possessions, so it fell to my lovely wife to dispose of the whole lot--two thousand miles away in a small farming town. Cheers, Chuck My gran died a few years ago, aged 92. My dad dealt with getting rid of her stuff. A vast majority of it was clothes and stuff. She did have about 50 issues (maybe more) of National Geographic from the 70's/80's I think they were - I believe my dad dumped them in the garage and then sold them by placing an advert in the local newspaper. It was a sad time, as I spent almost every weekend with her since childhood. I learnt most of my cooking skills from her - making scones, peeling potatoes , making bread pudding and apple crumble....mmmmm. Oh... sorry for going miles off-topic. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From allain at panix.com Mon Mar 19 17:37:18 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:37:18 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca><200703191944.l2JJirfW008989@mail2.magma.ca> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319150648.06512d98@mail> Message-ID: <005201c76a77$27ac3c40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I think I missed the definitive conclusion to the Maslin story. > I tried searching the archives but never quite found the ending. > Did his widow simply toss everything? I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is still sitting around, in spite of the unending digression going on in the kiddie sandbox that has become classiccmp. John A. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 16:46:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:46:35 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703191944.l2JJirfW008989@mail2.magma.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703191944.l2JJirfW008989@mail2.magma.ca> Message-ID: <45FF04BB.6070409@yahoo.co.uk> dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: >> In order to spread this around as much as possible, we could probably do with >> some "style guide" documents produced by some of the list gurus as to what >> hardware works with what etc. (e.g. summarising things like the responses to >> my recent question about hooking an 8" floppy drive up to a PC). That will >> hopefully encourage more people to participate. > > I agree - however, although platform specifc hardware will be a necessity for > some data types, I would also like to encourage platforn independance where > possible - it doesn't work too well if you are the key guy in your area, and you > can't make a disk someone needs - ImageDisk goes part way to solving this, > but there's still lots of things it can't do - we might want to include the Catweasel > in our list of standard tools (or a similar device we might design ourselves > in our list of standard tools). I don't think anyone nominated as a local area's "data handling specialist" can hope to cover everything though - it's not only a question of hardware availability, but also the sheer size of the hardware needed to handle some media types. So long as there's someone on the same continent who can handle xyz media, and xyz media itself isn't the size of a bus, we're probably OK :-) >> Hmmm, it's not really a FAQ, but there's perhaps scope for something like a >> "classiccmp.org knowledge base" containing info like this? > > wiki? I wondered that, but wikis are often unstructured beasts it seems - and from a user POV gleaning information can be a little time-consuming. It could probably work though, providing a broad range of titles and document scopes were worked out in advance. > Agreed to some extent, however I want to see the content distributed - perhaps > everyone directly involved in the project should maintain a private mirror of the > other parts. Maybe - although if any given original file in the central database has some sort of unique ID number, then there's probably a mechanism that can be put in place when another archive maintainer mirrors content such that the database "knows" what content isn't being mirrored by anyone. From there humans can see what content needs at least one mirror and act in whatever way is appropriate. That way the mirroring aspect is probably taken care of, but not at the expense of participating site owner's disk space (because they don't *have* to mirror anything if they don't have the space to do so). We might want to set ourselves some sort of target level - like any given content should ideally be mirrored two times before it's considered "reasonably safe" or whatever. > Theres also the issue that someone who is great at collecting and archiving > material doesn have the ability to host a site (dial-up etc.) - So I can see that > one site might host multiple peoples contributions. But these are things that > would be worked out by the individuals involved. Yep. e.g bitsavers would be one participating site even though the data might come from all over. I think it all still hangs together in such a scenario. >> 2) There's no unwieldy central repository, with corresponding high cost of >> maintenance. > > By "central repository", I don't (necessarily) mean a huge website and/or FTP > with everything contained on it aha ok, misunderstood there! I thought you were talking about one primary site with a few large mirrors, rather than smaller participating sites each doing what they could. > - but I would like to see a central resource where > people can begin a search for a specific need. That's perhaps where we differ; I see the data as to "who has what" stored centrally, but the searching isn't necessarily done on that site but could be via a search interface at each participating site (which behind the scenes will go and query the central repository). My thought for doing that is that it helps keep the smaller participating sites alive in the same way that people put links and banners on their websites already. It's purely a marketing thing. (The alternative is that participating sites are just a file dump area for content - which carries much more of risk that the site owners will suddenly ask the question of why they're bothering and pull the plug) > It would be advantagous to agree on formats where it is appropriate, but > only when so, and It may make sense to use multiple formats in some > cases - for example, having Catweasel images of disks that can only be > made on a specific platform might avoid the chicken-and-egg thing where > you want to help someone, but you don't have the system, and he doesn't > have a bootable disk to launch the resident client. Agreed. >> 1) Probably needs a web interface at least for the searching (but that's >> not to stop someone making the actual data available over FTP or whatever, and >> the search interface code could be produced in a variety of languages - PHP, >> ASP etc. - to provide flexibility) > > The only real complaint I've heard about a web interface is that it loses the > file dates - IMHO an os file date is a fragile information vessel at best - much > better to record relavent dates in the metadata associated with the archive. For sure. But besides that, I see the web aspect purely as the most convenient method to allow users to do the searching. There's nothing to stop a search result pointing to a FTP site, physical mailing address to which to send your pre-paid envelope in order to receive a CD of data back etc. :) In other words, the actual data retrieval side doesn't *have* to be web-based at all (although realistically in most cases it probably would be). As you say, recording the date in the metadata is the way to go anyway! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 19 16:39:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:39:20 -0600 Subject: Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:51:23 -0700. <45FE874B.29290.D629F96@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <E1HTPZY-0002YR-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45FE874B.29290.D629F96 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: > But I guess neither of us wins Richard's contest! I figure that > you'd almost have to know the room itself or someone in the photo to > be able to figure out what the system was. Yeah, I'd have included more photos, but that was the entirety of the footage from that scene. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Mar 19 17:10:16 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:10:16 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Dave McGuire wrote: As far as "people demand decreasing prices" and "people demand more functionality" etc...I hear that all over the place, but I never seem to see any people lined up outside Seagate's doors demanding that they make bigger drives, I never see people lined up outside Intel's HQ demanding higher clock rates etc etc. What I DO see is manufacturers constantly DELIVERING increased functionality, and sometimes decreasing prices, and customers eating it up because they have to have the "latest thing" in order to feel good about themselves. You see...I am (in this context) the customer, the money in my wallet is MINE, and *I* decide what I want to spend it on and when...and *I* decide when the products I have are no longer capable of doing their jobs. It is wrong for a manufacturer to tell me that "thing XYZ" is "no longer suitable for use" SIMPLY AND ONLY BECAUSE they've started selling something new and would like me to buy one. Where I come from, that's called a lie. Perhaps I'm expecting too much from the business world, especially in the USA nowadays, but that's crossing a line that should never have been crossed. -Dave Billy Responds: Dave, you obviously have had some bad experiences with obsolescence. I don't know what they were, but I have NEVER seen an OEM change products "SIMPLY AND ONLY BECAUSE" they've got something new. In fact it works the other way around - remember how Adam Osbourne killed off his company by prematurely announcing a new product? How many disk drives companies still make ST506 drives? Or SCSI? If people won't buy your product, you have to change or die. QED. One of the points I was trying to make is that it costs big bucks to develop new products. Every manufacturer I know would love to lay off the development staff and just keep making the old products. Damn engineers always expect to be paid! Get rid of them and no R&D expenses, old product well down the price curve = lots of profit, no pressure. But the world doesn't work that way. You may not see the people lined up outside Seagate's door demanding they make bigger drives. But I do - they visit us after they leave Seagate. And they give us their roadmap when they want the next drive, what features it requires down to the weight in grams, and how much they will pay and when. All vendors have to provide forward pricing, product commits, detailed schedules, design reviews, detailed testing data on the customer's systems and so on. Play the game as the customer demands or get out. Ignore the customer and die. It is extremely expensive to come out with new capacity points for drives and RAM so frequently. It has killer expenses and often involves massive infrastructure investment. Have you looked at the costs of going to 300 mm wafers to build the next generation of microprocessors? We are talking multi-billion dollar start up costs. It's clear that you feel strongly that the vendors are all out to screw you. I can't change that and won't try. But I can tell you that being in the industry is tough and making products obsolete to ship new ones is painful as hell. It is not vendors trying to screw their customers. It is people trying to stay alive in a cut throat industry. Think about how many casualties there have been in the field. Literally thousands of companies have come and gone. This list talks daily about respected companies with great technical expertise who didn't make it. And most of those died because they couldn't keep up the pace of change, not because they obsoleted their good products. Not everyone who makes electronic equipment is a villain. Billy From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 19 17:11:01 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070319103702.06b92590@mail> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <00a901c76a3a$dde41bf0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319103702.06b92590@mail> Message-ID: <20070319150916.U43177@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 19 Mar 2007, John Foust wrote: > Yes, and when I was a kid, we had 30 chars per second, both ways, > and we were glad for it! one of them new-fangled "Bell 103"? We had one guy who tried to run a selectric terminal at that speed. When they say 14.8 cps maximum, they apparently mean it. He got good distance with the golf ball, but no real damage. From dan.desjardins at redactive.com Mon Mar 19 10:12:49 2007 From: dan.desjardins at redactive.com (Dan Desjardins) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:12:49 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FE7DDA.50906@gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD917A.2040205@yahoo.co.uk> <ee5521f80703181321q43845414me02c654044d75f76@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703181343wb34fc7ds4a0fe80f9bd8cd57@mail.gmail.com> <45FE165D.3080807@gmail.com><008f01c769e4$8e31d940$0b01a8c0@game> <45FE7DDA.50906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d101c76a39$0e971150$6900a8c0@saco> Remove dan.desjardins at viewpix.com Dan Desjardins Director Redactive Archive Management 1407 Willow Trail Middleton, WI 53562 Phone: +1.608.204.9848 Fax: +1.608.204.9848 Mobile: +1.608.445.NEWS (6397) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Don Maslin/Archiving system software Teo Zenios wrote: >> Hex Star wrote: >>> The Russian comment is that if someone here does speak russian it would > be >>> possible to get Russian hosting in Russia which would prevent us from >>> having >>> to deal with US copyright issues and thus be able to upload whatever we >>> want >> That implies a systemic desire to avoid valid copyright. That doesn't >> seem like a good idea. If you don't respect others' copyright, you >> shouldn't expect anyone to respect yours. >> >> I write open-source software. The last thing I would want is for people >> to be ignoring my licenses wholesale. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > The issue is what do you do if you want Adobe Photoshop 1.0 when the > copyright holder does not sell or support that version and the latest will > not run on a Mac with 512k RAM. > > You can wait 10 years and maybe it will show up on ebay, or you can pirate > it. > > What is Adobe doesn't even have the original Photoshop 1.0 code anymore, is > it ok to let it fade away because of bitrot? No, but that's not what Hex Star was talking about. He was talking about creating a website in Russia to get around software publishers who still want to enforce their copyright. Peace... Sridhar From dan.desjardins at redactive.com Mon Mar 19 10:13:05 2007 From: dan.desjardins at redactive.com (Dan Desjardins) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:13:05 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FE62FD.9010103@socal.rr.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca><200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator><5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com><45FE1D0F.4090903@mdrconsult.com> <45FE62FD.9010103@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <00d201c76a39$185285d0$6900a8c0@saco> Remove dan.desjardins at viewpix.com Dan Desjardins Director Redactive Archive Management 1407 Willow Trail Middleton, WI 53562 Phone: +1.608.204.9848 Fax: +1.608.204.9848 Mobile: +1.608.445.NEWS (6397) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ford Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 5:16 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Don Maslin/Archiving system software I wonder if all the software ever written for the pre X mac might not fit on one modern hard drive. All it should take is a handful of people quietly sharing and accumulating. $20 for spindle of a 50 DVDs when they are on sale at Fry's, 220 GBs of storage, and maybe a terabyte would fit in a shoe box for $100 worth of media. I believe one of the binary newsgroups is for images of old software too. Sorry if all this has been talked over, I am about 37,000 messages behind on my reading. Mostly I just see a handful of posts that slip past my sorting filters. ;) From dan.desjardins at redactive.com Mon Mar 19 10:13:57 2007 From: dan.desjardins at redactive.com (Dan Desjardins) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:13:57 -0500 Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703191040120.15811@linuxserv.home> References: <200703190136.l2J1aXpF032080@hosting.monisys.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703191040120.15811@linuxserv.home> Message-ID: <00d301c76a39$3a105ee0$6900a8c0@saco> Remove dan.desjardins at viewpix.com Dan Desjardins Director Redactive Archive Management 1407 Willow Trail Middleton, WI 53562 Phone: +1.608.204.9848 Fax: +1.608.204.9848 Mobile: +1.608.445.NEWS (6397) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 6:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > To verify that the drive was good, I hooked it up and tried > to read/write some disks - to my surprise I could not do > single density (at 300kbos). Tried a couple other HD drives > with the same result. On a hunch, I modded it to 300rpm, and > sure enough, I can read/write single-desnity fine at > 300rpm / 250kbps. That's a known problem with many FDCs, they can't handle FM at 150 kBit/s, only at 125 kBit/s. So either jumper your drive for dual speed (so it will spin at 300rpm for 125/250 kBit/s and at 360rpm for 250/500 kBit/s) or jumper it for single speed at 300rpm (therefore making a 5,25" drive look like a 3,5" drive to the BIOS). Christian From dan.desjardins at redactive.com Mon Mar 19 10:14:35 2007 From: dan.desjardins at redactive.com (Dan Desjardins) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:14:35 -0500 Subject: 1m X 1 memoory In-Reply-To: <000501c76a2b$cc2fc850$6714a8c0@home> References: <000501c76a2b$cc2fc850$6714a8c0@home> Message-ID: <00d501c76a39$4de916f0$6900a8c0@saco> Remove dan.desjardins at viewpix.com Dan Desjardins Director Redactive Archive Management 1407 Willow Trail Middleton, WI 53562 Phone: +1.608.204.9848 Fax: +1.608.204.9848 Mobile: +1.608.445.NEWS (6397) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Phil Spanner Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 8:38 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 1m X 1 memoory I just went ooutt and checked Jameco, they had 18 pin rams @ 100ns for 2.59 ea. From dan.desjardins at redactive.com Mon Mar 19 10:14:19 2007 From: dan.desjardins at redactive.com (Dan Desjardins) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0500 Subject: Source for 1Mx1 DIP DRAM In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703190719340.7117@monarch.fast.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703181634460.7117@monarch.fast.net><45FDB3B3.3020602@atarimuseum.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703190719340.7117@monarch.fast.net> Message-ID: <00d401c76a39$478cabf0$6900a8c0@saco> Remove dan.desjardins at viewpix.com Dan Desjardins Director Redactive Archive Management 1407 Willow Trail Middleton, WI 53562 Phone: +1.608.204.9848 Fax: +1.608.204.9848 Mobile: +1.608.445.NEWS (6397) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven N. Hirsch Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 6:20 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Source for 1Mx1 DIP DRAM On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > You should be able to find them on netcomponents.com > Perhaps, but it would cost me $75.00 up front to find out. Anyone on the list have a small quantity they'd like to part with? Steve -- From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 19 14:05:20 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:05:20 +0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703181306q35892d2cpde5cbb63fb137c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <f4eb766f0703181306q35892d2cpde5cbb63fb137c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1174331120.6540.23.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-03-18 at 15:06 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/18/07, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: > > Hex Star wrote: > > > Well I am a teen... :P ...no one has to take me seriously, but if one gave > > > me a chance they'd see that I'm telling the truth... > > > > Being a teen, you will indeed have to work a bit to gain some respect. > > I agree, but it _is_ possible. I've mentioned numerous time that my > first classic machine was a PDP-8/L, but I don't always mention that I > was 16 when I bought it. I found myself hanging out with college-age > guys and older as I tried to learn what I could about 12-bit computing > in an 8-bit hobby scene. Hexstar - there's a thought, go contribute some code to a classic computing-related project. Or, pick some odd obscure but simple machine and write an emulator from scratch. This won't automatically earn you Worshipful Supreme Being status, but it will raise your stock a bit ;-) A long time ago, I started working on a Sinclair MK14 emulator, written partly in Pascal, partly in Z80 assembler. It's long gone now, but that's life. A quick google for "sinclair mk14 emulator" turns up a very old DOS-only one and not a lot else. Go learn some C, and make something cool for us to play with. Gordon From sethm at mac.com Mon Mar 19 14:08:35 2007 From: sethm at mac.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:08:35 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <989942CF-6541-4A62-AF3D-0EFEEB7D457A@mac.com> On Mar 17, 2007, at 8:32 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > [...] > = How to store the archive > I am a strong believer in preservation of the physical media as > historic artifacts, however I believe it is also vital to preserve > the data separately in modern formats, for several reasons: > - It allows easy replication and mirroring in multiple locations. > This will help insure that the material is not lost in the > future through any single failure point (fire, flood, death, > loss-of-interest - all of these things and more can wipe out > a single physical archive). > - It removes dependance on specific (and usually obsolete) > physical media. No need to put wear and tear on the original > artifacts, and allows for contingencies in the event that the > original devices become inoperative. > - Allows for easy sharing and movement of the data. > - Allows everything to be tracked in a central repository > (appropriately mirrored of course). > - Allows anyone who wants to set up the required equipment > to have complete access to the repository content. [...] Digital preservation is actually my day job. I work for the LOCKSS project at Stanford University (http://www.lockss.org/). LOCKSS is a distributed peer-to-peer preservation system for electronic journals used by libraries around the world. Basically, each library runs one or more boxes that collect e-journals, and all the boxes participate in audits with each other to make sure that content is not lost or damaged. They establish and maintain an "Authoritative Copy" of the content that all the boxes keep locally. If the original e-journal's publisher has disappeared, the boxes will repair missing content from each other. Best of all, it's entirely open source using the BSD license and some LGPL components. I've thought about using LOCKSS for software and documentation preservation, but unfortunately it's really not ideal for the job. As I mentioned, it was designed with the fairly narrow goal of providing libraries and institutions an easy way to preserve electronic journals, so it would require a lot of hacking to make it useful for something like a software archive. Still, I think the general principal should apply here. LOCKSS stands for "Lots Of Copies Keep Stuff Safe", and that should certainly be the goal of any digital archiving system. Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there as part of the discussion. I'd be glad to help out on this: I have a server, disk space, and bandwidth, and I'd like to see it used for this kind of thing. At a minimum, I should probably start mirroring http://bitsavers.org/ ! -Seth From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 17:21:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:21:29 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftparchives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703192014.l2JKEDoI007823@mail4.magma.ca> References: <BAY138-F28816F788E0D11CB0A6A90A3760@phx.gbl> <200703192014.l2JKEDoI007823@mail4.magma.ca> Message-ID: <45FF0CE9.4060001@yahoo.co.uk> dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: >>> These readme's may need updating as time goes by. Things like the fact >>> that some tool needs to run under a particular OS and not some future OS >>> that may be more common, needs to be passed on. >> Is that not a problem for whoever's maintaining the tools? They're the ones >> who dictate what platforms their tools will run on - it's not necessarily the >> job of the archive maintainers to know this; they simply record what tool (and >> hence what file format) was used to create their images. The burden's on the >> individual users to search for something that will understand that format, and >> then filter out results to get something that will work with their particular >> hardware combination. > > Can't resist a chance to climb up on my facvorite soapbox - much more important > than the tools, is details and docuemtnation on the archive format. Oh, I'm right with you there (it's one of my favourites too ;) Which actually leads to a related question: do we need a resource documenting media formats? *file* formats seem to be pretty well covered on the 'net, but I've not seen anywhere really documenting how floppies, tapes etc. for old systems are laid out. I'm not really talking about at the filesystem level either, but lower than that at the raw data stream level. Doing so would certainly seem a useful resource for anyone wanting to help contribute to the software repository (in terms or what media they're able to help archive) (I think someone else asked the same question on here a month or two back - in which case apologies for not speaking up and saying that it seemed like a good idea) >> e.g. I might have a site with a bunch of Superbrain floppies on, all in >> Imagedisk format. It's my job as maintainer of that archive (and participating >> in the "global" distributed archive) to say what tool I used to create those >> images when I publish them - but it's Dave's job as Imagedisk maintainer to >> dictate what other platforms Imagedisk might run on now or in the future. > > I think "dictate" is a string word - If someone wants to develop the tool for > another platform, I would be very supportive - however this hasn't happened > so far. Yep, you're right... I was just (badly) saying that I think it's easy to muddy the waters between tool maintainer and archive maintainer. > The sites should carry what tools and documentation can be made available > (ultimately ability to access the archived data will deternine it's acceptance). I don't think they *have* to though. It's logical for them to do so certainly, but but for the purposes of searching / mirroring / storage the tools can be treated purely as items of data - the critical thing (again) is widespread availability in sufficient numbers, not where the tools available for download happen to be located. But any road, it's all just semantics :-) >> Indeed - and it's easy to say "record as much as possible". Problem then is >> that it discourages archive owners from publishing content simply because it's >> time-consuming to enter the metadata for the items that they're making >> available. Getting the balance right is probably going to be tricky. > > I'm not sure I agree with that. You don't need much metadata to be 1000% > more useful than none. I would not expect complete documentation on the > tool and archive formats to be included in each data image - but the type > of system it is for, the name and version of the tool, and a description of > what is in the image should be enough to get you going. Absolutely. I was just pointing out that it's possible to go overboard - as an example, if it were to take someone 30 minutes to fill in the metadata for a single floppy disk image then I suspect the temptation will be there for people not to bother participating in the repository. So there is such a thing as "too much". So for any class of data (documentation, floppy image, tape image, archival tool etc. etc.) it just needs careful consideration at design time as to what metadata is important and needs to be mandatory. > People pay $$$ for a CD that comes in an empty box with a little paper > saying "This is XXX put the CD in your drive" - surely we can do at least > as good as that. Oh, we can do a lot better :) It's just a case of reaching some happy medium that captures as much useful metadata as possible but doesn't put people off from adding content in the first place. cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 17:23:40 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density In-Reply-To: <00d301c76a39$3a105ee0$6900a8c0@saco> from Dan Desjardins at "Mar 19, 7 10:13:57 am" Message-ID: <200703192223.l2JMNepn013358@floodgap.com> > Remove dan.desjardins at viewpix.com How about you use the unsubscribe address in the headers instead? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- UNHOLY UNION: Heavy Metal and Electronics -> Twisted Trans Sister ---------- From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 17:29:52 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:29:52 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703190358.l2J3wSEG012506@floodgap.com> References: <200703190358.l2J3wSEG012506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45FF0EE0.4080706@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> There is a curmudgeon-y vibe to most old computer restorers; they make >> things available online, but get mad when people leech the entire site. >> I don't understand that mentality, because doing so ensures another >> offline backup. Saying that people should only take one or two things >> as needed doesn't help when the site suddenly goes away due to illness >> or death, especially if it was the only repository for certain things. > > I will be happy to backup your site, over and over, repeatedly, every single > file, to make sure that your site will never go down. I will also ask all my > friends to do so. That way we will all have a backup. That is excellent. And, because I have QoS for my services, you will not be impacting me in any way. We all win. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 17:40:23 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:40:23 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703190430.AAA04498@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game><5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <007201c769cd$e204dc50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45FE0718.2010403@oldskool.org> <200703190430.AAA04498@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45FF1157.5080802@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > Perhaps the person was interested in helping people who actually ahve a > need for them, instead of feeding leeches. The leeches have a need as well. >> 2. QoS has been around for over a decade, both software and hardware. >> Put bandwidth controls on your stuff if you fear it will cost you >> money. My FTP server limits to 16KB/s because I pay for my >> bandwidth. > > I don't have any easy > way to place bandwidth limits on my FTP server. Yes you do. Don't feed me that line without backing it up. proftpd has had bandwidth controls for years; Linux has had them for almost a decade, and I would imagine that BSD does too. Hell, I host stuff out of my house, and my $40 router has QoS. > I have trouble thinking any of us who run anon FTP > sites are likely to react otherwise. I've run FTP archives since 1994, including a portion of the world's largest for a few years, and at no time did we prevent leeches. We limited connections such that the maximum number of users were all guaranteed a modicum of bandwidth (such as 10KB/s) but we didn't take any other steps than that. I am repeatedly flabbergasted that people intentionally limit archives they host. What is the damn point of hosting files if you don't want them downloaded? I repeat, has nobody learned anything from the Don Maslin incident? I have always wanted as many copies of my archives in the hands of other people as possible, because when I go away, my archives go away, and if there are no other mirrors then all of my cataloging work would have been for nothing. > I've had the same discussion, basically, with qmail fans. They too > seem to think that it's sane to take the stance "I should be able to > grab all I want, and if you don't want me to you should make sure I > can't". The concept that computers are used by humans and that > politeness is important to humans seems completely lost on them. (And > yes, I've had to put automated defenses in place against qmail's > commonest form of abuse - connection-bombing receiving mailservers.) That is not the same thing as downloading files from an archive or repository. The only connecting thread is bandwidth utilization; otherwise that analogy does not apply. > You are asked to not abuse something provided free. You are arguing > "you should make it impossible to abuse". True or false, that does > not, repeat DOES NOT, excuse your abusing it, or attempting to. Downloading files from the archive is not abuse!! Repeatedly connecting and locking other people out -- that's abuse. That is not the same thing. It is entirely possible to mirror a site without bringing it to its knees. Not all leechers are abusive. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 19 17:41:06 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:41:06 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> Message-ID: <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> On Mar 19, 2007, at 11:54 AM, John Foust wrote: > It's clearly a common view - apart from right or wrong. How many > users today expect all their movies for free, all their music for > free? > And that they should be able to download and upload all day long, > as much as their pipe can handle? > > To many, an open ftp or web site is a free resource. Without any > previous indoctrination in an earlier culture that might prevent > wholesale downloading, they'll sap it until they're tired of it. I've been trying to avoid this thread, but I'm having a hard time ignoring this. I find the idea somewhat idiotic that someone puts up a web server, or an *anonymous* ftp server, and then gets all bent out of shape when people actually use it. I mean, sure, it's rude to just scrape the hell out of someone's server all at once, but part of the responsibility must lie with the people putting the material out there. We KNOW the Internet is an overgrown TV for probably 75% of its current users. We KNOW that, for a decade and a half now, the Internet has been facing a huge influx of largely nontechnical people who don't know the first thing about etiquette, and refuse to learn. We KNOW there is FTP and web server software that is readily available that can handle rate- and connection-limiting to prevent abuse. And still people whine when people slurp all the bits that have been made available to slurp? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 19 18:44:27 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:44:27 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FE14D4.7000709@gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <45FD0659.24645.782EDCC@cclist.sydex.com> <200703181737.NAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200703181450.31551.pat@computer-refuge.org> <45FE14D4.7000709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FF205B.1010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Well, driving a Model A Ford on the German Autobahn might be problematic. Do it right --- Get a VW ... :) A's are history, VW's are still around. > Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 19 17:47:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:47:09 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <1174331120.6540.23.camel@elric> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <45FD9070.8010908@oldskool.org> <f4eb766f0703181306q35892d2cpde5cbb63fb137c@mail.gmail.com> <1174331120.6540.23.camel@elric> Message-ID: <45FF12ED.6040207@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > A long time ago, I started working on a Sinclair MK14 emulator I always wonder what happened to the other 13, and were they in fact any worse than the one which became commercial? ;-) I'm forever in awe of emulator writers. I don't know why, there's just something cool about simulating hardware in software... From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 17:55:19 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:55:19 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703191710.l2JHAVbj012078@floodgap.com> References: <200703191710.l2JHAVbj012078@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45FF14D7.5020300@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I don't think I've ever seen such a sense of entitlement displayed as >>> Jim & Hexxie are putting forward. >> It's not entitlement, it's courtesy. I contribute to the community as >> best I can, and I would assume that others would do the same. I *want* >> many different mirrors of my work in case I perish tomorrow. > > It's courteous to encourage people to download everything off a site, whether > they need it or not, in the name of "backup"? Yes!! That is the entire point of making the files available, is it not? We are in the hobby of preserving history. You would want everything to go away from single locations, one by one, as people perish? I host a Tandy archive. I used to be the mirror, but the original owner decided to abandon it so now I'm the primary maintainer. Until two days ago there was no known mirror. So if I had perished before that time, all of that work and information would have been completely gone (there were several files unique to the site, and countless hours gathering, researching, and organizing). I used to BEG for mirrors; I stopped a few years ago after hearing nothing by crickets. Thankfully someone here has mirrored the archive (and corrected the name, so that it will be picked up by search engines properly). > It's courteous to cost people tons of money in bandwidth, or time trying to > outwit script kiddies with downloaders? See previous posts regarding QoS. We are not living in the 1990s any more. It does not cost people tons of money in bandwidth, and even if it does, you have a single line in a config file for either the server app, or the OS, or your hardware router to control the traffic. If you upgrade your FTP server software to, oh, five years ago or newer, you also have kiddie/downloader protection. So the cost argument is a non-argument. > Your definition of courtesy is obscene. Your definition of generosity is stingy and parsimonious. Do you complain about your web server bandwidth as well? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Mar 19 17:58:52 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:58:52 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jules Richardson wrote: For sure. But besides that, I see the web aspect purely as the most convenient method to allow users to do the searching. There's nothing to stop a search result pointing to a FTP site, physical mailing address to which to send your pre-paid envelope in order to receive a CD of data back etc. :) In other words, the actual data retrieval side doesn't *have* to be web-based at all (although realistically in most cases it probably would be). As you say, recording the date in the metadata is the way to go anyway! Billy: This brings in several points that should be discussed re: what is an archive. If I send manuals to be scanned and put on a web site, is that breaking the law? Here returns all the arguments about copyright law that have ensnarled this list before. Generally the answer is yes. But as one member responded, many copyright owners give a "wink and a nod" without officially blessing the activity. Of course many other IP owners have gone out of business and there may or may not be a new rights owner. Then comes the discussion of the manuals themselves. Many were distributed in thousands of copies. They fall under fair use laws. But some stuff from this list is detailed internal documents, such as software source listings, software maintenance documents, etc. This is a much more iffy arena. There might still be perceived value to this IP. In a few cases, and Control Data is one of them, IP (especially software) was sold and the new owner continues to protect his investment. If we want to play and share old CDC software, we have to ask for permission. To be on the good side of the new owner, we play by his rules. And he makes no effort to preserve the older unsaleable software. So the dilemma is how to save all this old software for the future? The method a few of us use is to make copies, put them in private archives and specifically prevent them from being accessed on the web. There may a very small private distribution to individuals known to have an interest in the software and willing to follow the owner's rules. This solves the preservation problem - multiple copies are saved. And it prevents the IP owner coming down like a ton of bricks. So now we have a young Turk who is going to save everything and distribute to whoever he wants. He ignores the narrow line that is being walked by the current public archives and even proposes we engage in illegal activities to help his acquisition yen. There doesn't seem to be any understanding that not everyone wants wide distribution of the software archives. Nor does he understand that what he wants to do could set off the wrath of IP owners against the current public archives. We survive at the whim of these IP owners. And many of them, like the RIAA, are in a bad temper. What a few of us are doing is ensuring multiple copies are archived without shouting it to the world. It achieves the goals of a lasting archive. And it keeps the Eye of Sauron away from us. And if copies are not available to leeches, too bad. Billy From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 19 18:29:30 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:29:30 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software Message-ID: <01C76A5D.07A36500@MSE_D03> To bring this back to the original subject... Although I have a problem with some of our Hex friend's suggestions, I do like the idea of on-demand availability (in addition to on-line archives). I've seen it mentioned, but are there actually any plans to host a master catalogue of old software somewhere where people could just list what they have available, with a search mechanism that could essentially look like bitsavers et al and let you select a brand/model/title but instead of (or in addition to) a direct FTP link return a list of web sites and/or email addresses where it could be found or requested? For example (and I doubt that I'm alone in this): I have a bunch of Cromemco software but not the time or even the inclination to copy and archive it in all its various formats, but if anyone ever wanted a copy of something in a specific format (and knew that I have it) I'd be glad to help out, and I could probably find the time to make a list if there were a place for it and an agreed-upon standard for its format and content. Same thing with documentation; I'm not about to scan all the manuals, tech bulletins, etc., but I could make a list and would be happy to scan a few crucial pages if someone needed some specific info. (Note to Al: I haven't forgotten; still working on your pile). I realize that this doesn't address the issue of actually archiving this stuff and I appreciate the efforts of Al and others to make sure that it doesn't disappear, but I suspect there is a lot of software and information out there that can't be found anywhere on the 'Web just because its owner doesn't have the time or doesn't think it's useful; in fact there's probably a fair bit of stuff that people wouldn't even know existed until they saw it listed somewhere. Granted, there'd be dead links etc. after a while (although I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to automatically verify them every now and then), but nevertheless I think it would bring a few useful items out of the woodwork... mike From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 19 18:34:36 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:34:36 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca><200703191944.l2JJirfW008989@mail2.magma.ca><6.2.3.4.2.20070319150648.06512d98@mail> <005201c76a77$27ac3c40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <012901c76a7f$28f2f370$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John A. wrote... > I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is still sitting around, in spite of > the unending digression going on in the kiddie sandbox that has > become classiccmp. Eh, I don't think that's entirely fair. But then I do tend to take negatives about the list perhaps more personally than I should. For every 50 people insisting that someone be removed, there's 50 more insisting I can't. We shall see. But more to the point... I don't have a litmus test for someone joining the list. They don't have to write a report saying why they belong on classiccmp. I get rather disheartened when someone joins the list who perhaps shouldn't be. But on the other hand... perhaps we should be in some cases more tolerant of young people who actually want to join the list and get into the topic. That will help our hobby grow after we are gone. All that said, I am not terribly happy with the current discourse. I've seen a lot of angst lately on the list, some of it mine - and I apologize for that. Let's try to keep it more professional and courteous. Jay From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 18:42:19 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FF0EE0.4080706@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 19, 7 05:29:52 pm" Message-ID: <200703192342.l2JNgJrw013556@floodgap.com> > > I will be happy to backup your site, over and over, repeatedly, every single > > file, to make sure that your site will never go down. I will also ask all my > > friends to do so. That way we will all have a backup. > > That is excellent. And, because I have QoS for my services, you will > not be impacting me in any way. We all win. Now that you've demonstrated you're a wiseguy, kindly tell the rest of the people on commercial hosting programs offering such files how they can do that without root access to the box. Or is it their responsibility to pay more for that, or own their own hardware? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you're too open-minded, your brains will fall out. ---------------------- From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Mar 19 18:53:07 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:53:07 -0000 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FF12ED.6040207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <006301c76a81$bf38bac0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> A long time ago, I started working on a Sinclair MK14 emulator > > I always wonder what happened to the other 13, and were they in fact > any worse than the one which became commercial? ;-) >From what I remember I don't think it was that advanced, it was more of a Mk 1.4 :-) Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.14/727 - Release Date: 19/03/2007 11:49 From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 18:55:44 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FF1157.5080802@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 19, 7 05:40:23 pm" Message-ID: <200703192355.l2JNtiYq011022@floodgap.com> > I am repeatedly flabbergasted that people intentionally limit archives > they host. What is the damn point of hosting files if you don't want > them downloaded? I repeat, has nobody learned anything from the Don > Maslin incident? I have always wanted as many copies of my archives in > the hands of other people as possible, because when I go away, my > archives go away, and if there are no other mirrors then all of my > cataloging work would have been for nothing. Great. Kindly keep your fat trap shut about what *I* want to do with my box. Let's assume that you're right (you're not, but let's assume that). What gives you the right to tell me that I *can't* or *shouldn't* offer files because I'm not prepared to go the same insane length you are? So people should just not host anything at all? The stalls are in the back. Put your high horse in it. > Downloading files from the archive is not abuse!! Repeatedly connecting > and locking other people out -- that's abuse. That is not the same > thing. It is entirely possible to mirror a site without bringing it to > its knees. Not all leechers are abusive. Then answer my question about the people hosting their files on commercial providers that don't allow or offer QoS limiting. Are they not paying enough for your taste? "Thank you for buying me this free beer, but you are a jerk because you get mad when I want the whole fricking keg." You are the epitome of irresponsibility. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I had amnesia once -- or twice. -------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 18:58:23 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FF14D7.5020300@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 19, 7 05:55:19 pm" Message-ID: <200703192358.l2JNwN74011074@floodgap.com> > > Your definition of courtesy is obscene. > > Your definition of generosity is stingy and parsimonious. Do you > complain about your web server bandwidth as well? Darn tootin'. Fortunately I wrote my own server software to limit it, but I don't think this should be expected, nay demanded, of people. So, once again, you are an elitist fool. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" ---------------------- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 19 18:58:29 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FF14D7.5020300@oldskool.org> References: <200703191710.l2JHAVbj012078@floodgap.com> <45FF14D7.5020300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200703200007.UAA11365@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > See previous posts regarding QoS. We are not living in the 1990s any > more. It does not cost people tons of money in bandwidth, and even > if it does, you have a single line in a config file for either the > server app, or the OS, or your hardware router to control the > traffic. So nobody's allowed to put up an anonymous FTP server without such facilities? Or that it's somehow acceptable to gobble all the resources the remote site will let you without consideration for its admins, often in direct defiance of their express wishes? Furrfu. > If you upgrade your FTP server software to, oh, five years ago or > newer, you also have kiddie/downloader protection. So the cost > argument is a non-argument. For you, maybe. Bully for you. Here we are again, decreeing that people who don't happen to be running your idea of suitably recent software are not worthy of running FTP sites. >> Your definition of courtesy is obscene. > Your definition of generosity is stingy and parsimonious. So someone's doing you a free service, and you're calling him stingy and parsimonious because he's not prepared to offer this service to you on exactly the terms you want? Which appear to be "I can grab as much as I like whenever I like and the effects this has on other users of the service or the computers behind it make no difference"?! I'm ashamed to be on the same net as you. > Do you complain about your web server bandwidth as well? I don't *have* a webserver, and this obscene culture of entitlement that says it's okay to grab everything the server will let you grab without consideration for what it may be doing to the remote host or other users of it is one of the reasons why! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 19:07:01 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <012901c76a7f$28f2f370$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Mar 19, 7 06:34:36 pm" Message-ID: <200703200007.l2K071Ld011150@floodgap.com> > All that said, I am not terribly happy with the current discourse. I've seen > a lot of angst lately on the list, some of it mine - and I apologize for > that. Let's try to keep it more professional and courteous. Well, I just unloaded some spleen prior to seeing your message, but I think I've made my point and I will desist from further inflaming the discussion. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Too much of a good thing is wonderful. -- Mae West ------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 19 20:09:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:09:31 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45FF344B.2020807@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > I've been trying to avoid this thread, but I'm having a hard time > ignoring this. > > I find the idea somewhat idiotic that someone puts up a web server, > or an *anonymous* ftp server, and then gets all bent out of shape when > people actually use it. I mean, sure, it's rude to just scrape the > hell out of someone's server all at once, but part of the > responsibility must lie with the people putting the material out there. > And still people whine when people slurp all the bits that have been > made available to slurp? I just let them slurp the *virus downloads* too. My gripe is over a slow link your download dies after the first few hours. If I want to wait a week downloading one file *1 I think the provider *needs* to provide all of it even if I am dial up. > -Dave *1 a linux CD rom image comes to mind here. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 19:34:39 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:34:39 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703192355.l2JNtiYq011022@floodgap.com> References: <200703192355.l2JNtiYq011022@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45FF2C1F.2050607@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Let's assume that you're right (you're not, but let's assume that). What > gives you the right to tell me that I *can't* or *shouldn't* offer files > because I'm not prepared to go the same insane length you are? So people > should just not host anything at all? No, but people should not act surprised when someone wants to mirror the site. >> Downloading files from the archive is not abuse!! Repeatedly connecting >> and locking other people out -- that's abuse. That is not the same >> thing. It is entirely possible to mirror a site without bringing it to >> its knees. Not all leechers are abusive. > > Then answer my question about the people hosting their files on commercial > providers that don't allow or offer QoS limiting. Are they not paying > enough for your taste? It has nothing to do with what they are paying. I am paying too. It is a matter of expectations. I choose to put my archive in a location that 1. I can afford monetarily, and 2. I can control. I do this because I *want* people to actually *download* my files. What a concept. The only place you can put files without QoS (or crazy amounts of bandwidth to cover every single person mirroring) are places which cost less than $6 a month. So there is no cost involved at all (monthly cost is fixed). > "Thank you for buying me this free beer, but you are a jerk because you get > mad when I want the whole fricking keg." Yes, you used that analogy last time and I still don't understand it. A keg of beer is not a historical archive. Archives are meant to be accessed. Are you saying that the library gets mad when someone checks out every single book at once? Oh, right, you can't do that, because they have CONTROLS IN PLACE TO PREVENT THE SHELVES FROM BEING EMPTY ALL AT ONCE. Which cost them NOTHING. People *are* allowed -- and even encouraged -- to systematically goes through the shelves and check out 3 books at a time. And that is what my archives have always done. People can still mirror, bandwidth is reasonable, my cost is fixed per month, and everyone is happy. We are hosting *technology* archives. Use the damn technology. > You are the epitome of irresponsibility. And you are a curmudgeon. If you don't want people actually downloading files, don't offer them. Get off of *your* high horse. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 19:36:48 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:36:48 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FF344B.2020807@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> <45FF344B.2020807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45FF2CA0.5050207@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > My gripe is over a slow link your download dies after the first few hours. Proper FTP server setup not only limits bandwidth but also limits the number of concurrent connections. I have mine set up such that every user is guaranteed a minimum of 16KB/s and will not grant more connections if 1. it will get me over my monthly bandwidth allotment or 2. impact performance for the other users. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 19:37:43 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:37:43 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703192358.l2JNwN74011074@floodgap.com> References: <200703192358.l2JNwN74011074@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45FF2CD7.7010309@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Your definition of courtesy is obscene. >> Your definition of generosity is stingy and parsimonious. Do you >> complain about your web server bandwidth as well? > > Darn tootin'. Fortunately I wrote my own server software to limit it, but > I don't think this should be expected, nay demanded, of people. > > So, once again, you are an elitist fool. And you are ignorant of even 1990's technology. You didn't have to write your own software; it has existed for at least a decade. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 19 19:37:35 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:37:35 -0500 Subject: 11/45 works, but.... References: <200703191544.l2JFiftY008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <017801c76a87$f4f87000$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Brad wrote.... > Is the rx02 controller a dma device? I'm probably wrong but I don't > think I've put it in slots where the NPR was removed. RX11 (RX01, M7846) is programmed I/O. RX211 (RX02, M8256) can use DMA via non processor request. So... NPR jumper needs to be removed for my M8256. I checked tonight, and powering them both up (RL02 & RX02) before the cpu makes no difference. If the RX02 is powered on when the load button is hit on the RL02, the RL02 will fault just after spinup. If the RX02 is powered off, the RL02 doesn't fault at any time and runs just fine. My M8256 is set at address 177170, vector 264, priority BR5. The M7762 is set at address 174400, vector 160, priority BR5. I'm assuming both at BR5 isn't a problem? Jay From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 19 19:34:22 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:34:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200703200041.UAA11613@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Okay, I'll allow myself one more message, since it's one that isn't getting incensed at "the other side".... > We KNOW the Internet is an overgrown TV for probably 75% of its > current users. We KNOW that, for a decade and a half now, the > Internet has been facing a huge influx of largely nontechnical people > who don't know the first thing about etiquette, and refuse to learn. True. We know there are abusers out there. But I don't see that as a reason to roll over for the abuse. And I don't see it as a reason to back down from calling it abuse, even in the face of people with the brazen gall to defend it. And I *especially* feel that way when it's someone at least partially in our community - like any community, we have to police our own. If abusers hit my servers, I'm prepared to deal with them. They may not like the ways I choose, but to me that's their problem; I feel no particular urge to be nice to abusers. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 19 20:40:00 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:40:00 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070319185043.06516e48@mail> At 04:41 PM 3/19/2007, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Mar 19, 2007, at 11:54 AM, John Foust wrote: >>To many, an open ftp or web site is a free resource. Without any >>previous indoctrination in an earlier culture that might prevent >>wholesale downloading, they'll sap it until they're tired of it. > > And still people whine when people slurp all the bits that have >been made available to slurp? I agree with you, though. As there are many types of users, there are many types of people who make web or ftp archives. Few are ready for an onslaught from Digg or any other form of popularity that brings servers to their knees, or that burns up the monthly limit on their $30/month hosting service. Many aren't even prepared, technically or emotionally, for the senseless repeated downloading of their entire site. Outgoing bandwidth is still expensive enough to matter for some people. Their generosity exceeds their readiness to accomodate the leeches and file collectors. If I see a cool site, do you think it's OK for me to recursively 'wget' just so I can leisurely browse my local copy, and then toss away the bits I don't want? - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 19 19:43:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DE9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DE9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <20070319173644.Q48373@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 19 Mar 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > This is the old 'Apple Box' issue: > If you have surplus apples and put a box with 'Please take one' by your > gate > is that different to a box with 'Help yourself on it' I have a lemon tree in front of my house. My neighbors are welcome to 'take one' when they want. But if they take enough to make a pie, it would be nice if they gave me a slice, or a glass of lemonade, or a shot of tequila, . . . And, when somebody whom I've never seen before pulls up in a pickup and 6 people strip everything off of the tree, . . . OK, it's a flawed analogy. Let's comply with the explicit and implicit terms when somebody makes something available. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 19:44:04 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:44:04 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703200007.UAA11365@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200703191710.l2JHAVbj012078@floodgap.com> <45FF14D7.5020300@oldskool.org> <200703200007.UAA11365@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45FF2E54.6030800@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: >> If you upgrade your FTP server software to, oh, five years ago or >> newer, you also have kiddie/downloader protection. So the cost >> argument is a non-argument. > > For you, maybe. Bully for you. Here we are again, decreeing that > people who don't happen to be running your idea of suitably recent > software are not worthy of running FTP sites. If you think a decade is too "recent" then you shouldn't complain. Come on, this stuff runs on a 386 for gods sake. >>> Your definition of courtesy is obscene. >> Your definition of generosity is stingy and parsimonious. > > So someone's doing you a free service, and you're calling him stingy > and parsimonious because he's not prepared to offer this service to you > on exactly the terms you want? With those kinds of terms, the service is useless. Is he willing to burn DVDs for everyone? No? And nobody can mirror the site? Then guess what, he'll die suddenly and his server will go offline and everyone suffers as nobody has a complete copy of the archive. Not once has anyone answered my question of "hasn't anyone learned from the Don Maslin incident". I guess not. This is ridiculous. I am beginning to think that the terms of some of the people here in regards to "helping the hobby" is to hold onto information in miserly fashion and dole it out in small bites weekly like a priest or something. That helps nobody. If you truly want to help you won't complain when someone else wants to help as well. People willing to mirror archives spend THEIR MONEY and TIME as well on the hobby. Or do you think they leech for leeching's sake? If we were talking about pirated games or something we wouldn't be having this argument. But we're not; we're talking about files and information that are VITAL to keeping our hobby alive. You are not thinking that far enough ahead. Who do you think will have this information 20 or 30 years from now? What if it's all gone? Haven't we lost enough to history already? >> Do you complain about your web server bandwidth as well? > > I don't *have* a webserver, and this obscene culture of entitlement > that says it's okay to grab everything the server will let you grab > without consideration for what it may be doing to the remote host or > other users of it is one of the reasons why! If it will cost you more money than you can afford, then don't put it online. Simple as that. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 19 19:49:40 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:49:40 -0500 Subject: ftp archives/archiving system software References: <200703192355.l2JNtiYq011022@floodgap.com> <45FF2C1F.2050607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <01a701c76a89$a4df2620$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Time to kill both of these threads. Obviously tempers have gotten out of control. Let's keep it on topic and courteous. Jay From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 19:53:16 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:53:16 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703192342.l2JNgJrw013556@floodgap.com> References: <200703192342.l2JNgJrw013556@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45FF307C.90808@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I will be happy to backup your site, over and over, repeatedly, every single >>> file, to make sure that your site will never go down. I will also ask all my >>> friends to do so. That way we will all have a backup. >> That is excellent. And, because I have QoS for my services, you will >> not be impacting me in any way. We all win. > > Now that you've demonstrated you're a wiseguy, kindly tell the rest of the > people on commercial hosting programs offering such files how they can do > that without root access to the box. Or is it their responsibility to pay > more for that, or own their own hardware? There are tens if not hundreds of services that offer obscene amounts of bandwidth, like 200GB per month or more, where you will never actually exhaust it. There are other services that offer 100GB or less, but will throttle you and/or cut you off if you go past that day's allotment (the next day, it automatically turns back on). And there are still more services that do *both* in obscene amounts for tiny prices. You want an example, try www.powweb.com. 300GB of disk space, 3 TERABYTES of bandwidth a month, and it's $6 a month for the first year and $8 a month for the 2nd year. So with plans like that I am sick and tired of hearing that it's costing people money. If you can't afford $6 a month for essentially unlimited resources then you're being unreasonable. You probably spent more than that on your cup of coffee today. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 19:55:08 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:55:08 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703200041.UAA11613@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> <200703200041.UAA11613@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45FF30EC.7050207@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > True. We know there are abusers out there. > > But I don't see that as a reason to roll over for the abuse. And I > don't see it as a reason to back down from calling it abuse, even in If you thought this conversation was to convince you to "roll over" for abusers, you've missed the point. The point of this conversation was to use technology to prevent abuse in the first place, and/or make smarter choices when it comes to hosting files such that *everyone* wins. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 19 19:56:19 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:56:19 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070319185043.06516e48@mail> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319185043.06516e48@mail> Message-ID: <45FF3133.6060300@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > If I see a cool site, > do you think it's OK for me to recursively 'wget' just so I can leisurely > browse my local copy Yes. > and then toss away the bits I don't want? No. The former is archiving/mirroring/backup. The latter is abuse. At no point was I advocating abuse. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 20:13:30 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:13:30 -0500 Subject: ftp archives/archiving system software In-Reply-To: <01a701c76a89$a4df2620$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200703192355.l2JNtiYq011022@floodgap.com> <45FF2C1F.2050607@oldskool.org> <01a701c76a89$a4df2620$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <e1d20d630703191813l494dafe6y7ee30c2047a80310@mail.gmail.com> Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out. -- Will From djg at pdp8.net Mon Mar 19 20:54:30 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:54:30 -0400 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card Message-ID: <200703200154.l2K1sUL23711@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> If you are referring to CR1 and CR2 on the plug in card 181821/181823 they both seem to be 1N4383. One I could read the entire part # and the other all except the last digit. From molists at yahoo.com Mon Mar 19 21:31:34 2007 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Craigslist was Re: Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill In-Reply-To: <696471.82866.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <589707.64721.qm@web43140.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> --- Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> wrote: > my guess is there is usually always someone within a > 30-60 mile radius of where you live that is willing to > pick up something oldt. > Out of curiosity, who has p/u'd or bought something > vintage on Craigslist. I don't make a point of looking there. Anything "free" on CL, computer-wise, is claimed within minutes, regardless of whether either party knows what it really is. For-sale stuff will languish forever, as it is inevitably overpriced. But finding vintage stuff this way, well, CL goes to great lengths to prohibit any global search - so unless you have loads of time to waste... ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 19 23:15:39 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:15:39 -0700 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card References: <200703200154.l2K1sUL23711@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <45FF5FE3.AE97046E@cs.ubc.ca> djg at pdp8.net wrote: > > If you are referring to CR1 and CR2 on the plug in card 181821/181823 > they both seem to be 1N4383. One I could read the entire part # and the > other all except the last digit. ... and the replacement for 1N4383 is 1N4003, going by Moto Semi Data Book/1969. :) (Vf is a little lower: 1N4383=1.3V at 1A, 1N4003=1.6V at 1A, not likely to matter in the appl.) From hexstar at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 23:30:16 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:30:16 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FF3133.6060300@oldskool.org> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319185043.06516e48@mail> <45FF3133.6060300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703192130y7fb6f966x74d3e91b8ab10653@mail.gmail.com> I agree with everyone here who has stated that people who put their archive online should not discourage any forms of downloading the archive. They should ahead of time realize that hosting the archive (and this goes for any kind of file hosting for that matter) will cost some good money and if they don't think they'll have that much money to put into hosting their archive then they really shouldn't put it online at all. Why? Because people who don't have that much money to put into their hosting of their archive but put it online anyways always put too many limitations on downloaders. This causes downloaders to be required to download piece by piece only as needed for the time being often. This is not good for the future as people who are willing to mirror the archive cannot and often the owner of the archive is unfortunately not willing to give people a copy of the whole archive in many cases. So what exactly is the point of the archive being online in the first place? Isn't the idea of doing that such that it will get downloaded by others and thus preserved? But then with all the limitations these people put on downloaders this purpose no longer exists which essentially makes the archive useless. Thus people who don't have much money to put into the hosting of their archive shouldn't put it online because it won't matter if they do or don't, it'll have the same useless outcome unless the person has and is willing to put forward some good money to host the archive without download limitations so that the true purpose of hosting the archive can be had and everyone can enjoy it and preserve it for generations to come. That is the point I've been trying to get across, perhaps this typing of my point is more clear then my past typings and hopefully people will now more clearly see where I'm coming from and maybe even (hopefully) agree with me. :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 23:32:10 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:32:10 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703191204.l2JC4Seh009638@floodgap.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <200703191204.l2JC4Seh009638@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703192132w15e0810fvad2720424e7319b0@mail.gmail.com> On 3/19/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: > > > > "Thank you for buying me this beer, but you are a jerk because you won't > buy > me all the beer I want." > > Does that not seem asinine to you? > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- "I ... I love you!" "Oh noo! I don't!" -- Awful movie, "Ranma 1/2" > --------- > I think we've miscommunicated, let me try and clarify my point. :-) I agree with everyone here who has stated that people who put their archive online should not discourage any forms of downloading the archive. They should ahead of time realize that hosting the archive (and this goes for any kind of file hosting for that matter) will cost some good money and if they don't think they'll have that much money to put into hosting their archive then they really shouldn't put it online at all. Why? Because people who don't have that much money to put into their hosting of their archive but put it online anyways always put too many limitations on downloaders. This causes downloaders to be required to download piece by piece only as needed for the time being often. This is not good for the future as people who are willing to mirror the archive cannot and often the owner of the archive is unfortunately not willing to give people a copy of the whole archive in many cases. So what exactly is the point of the archive being online in the first place? Isn't the idea of doing that such that it will get downloaded by others and thus preserved? But then with all the limitations these people put on downloaders this purpose no longer exists which essentially makes the archive useless. Thus people who don't have much money to put into the hosting of their archive shouldn't put it online because it won't matter if they do or don't, it'll have the same useless outcome unless the person has and is willing to put forward some good money to host the archive without download limitations so that the true purpose of hosting the archive can be had and everyone can enjoy it and preserve it for generations to come. That is the point I've been trying to get across, perhaps this typing of my point is more clear then my past typings and hopefully people will now more clearly see where I'm coming from and maybe even (hopefully) agree with me. :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 00:29:29 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:29:29 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703192229r7331c4aeq2573bd207c382863@mail.gmail.com> On 3/19/07, Billy Pettit <Billy.Pettit at wdc.com> wrote: > This is going too far - proposing that we deliberately break the law so > this > young fellow can get all the software he wants. Isn't it about time to > end > this thread and ask Hex Star to stop harassing the list? > > And Hex Star, please learn how to write a sentence. Your messages are > almost incoherent - long rambling lines of text with no beginning or end. > Surely your keyboard has a Shift key and a period key; please use them and > state your ideas more succinctly. > > > > > > Billy > > No need to be such a jerk... Trust me, there are people who type sentences on message boards in a much worse format then me, this definetly is not the worst nor bad by any means. If you can't handle internet chat formats then you really do not belong on the internet...as classic old timers like you guys sadly fade away in time more of people like me with our new slang and ways of formatting messages will come in and a version of formatting you're not familiar with and probably would be quite hostile like you were to me to the new format that will come. Times change as things change hands and different eras take place, the 1990s and below were one thing, the 200s and up are quite another. My comment about Russia is NOT just to bypass US law, it is so that we can upload things like Photoshop 2.0 and such which is not yet through the 70 year copyright experation law and as such one could still potentially be sued by Adobe for spreading such copies of their software. However if one was to host in Russia we'd be able to host said copies of Photoshop for our vintage macs, and things like RAM Charger. The idea is NOT intended to be such that people go and upload Mac OS X versions and whatnot to our archive and it becomes a warez breeding ground. Absolutely not! It would merely be a way to assure everyone that the sharing of 1980s-1990s vintage mac software could be shared in the archive(s) without having the government on our backs (which is unlikely due to the softwares age and the companies moving on but still they could do it if they so wished). This would also allow us to host Mac OS 1 and whatnot and be able to ignore cease and desist orders from Apple. So to wrap it up, the comment is NOT intended to mean yeah, let's host in Russia so that we can turn our vintage archive into a mac warez archive! No, it's meant to mean that there's a possibility of getting hosting in Russia so we could upload copies of RAM Charger, Photoshop 2.0, Mac OS 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7.x without having to worry about being forced to remove the files like other sites have been. It would merely be a extra measure to ensure the integrity and longevity of our archive and the rare vintage files enclosed in it. (btw, the files I'm referring to are vintage mac files as that's my specialty but obviously this would apply to other applicable files for other vintage computers) see what I mean? :-) and this is not meant to be a selfish thing so I can get all the files I want as Billy claimed, this is meant to help benefit all of us in our joint venture to preserve what's still left of the vintage computer files and our associated archives From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Tue Mar 20 00:38:18 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:38:18 -0400 Subject: TV Show Alert: Antikythera Mechanism Message-ID: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOMEHJELAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> Hi All, Just a heads up that tonight (Tuesday 3/20/07) the show, Ancient Discoveries, on the History Channel at 9:00PM Eastern and repeated around 12:00am - 1:00am Wednesday Morning, will be on. It is titled "Ancient Computer?" and deals with the Antikythera Mechanism. Should be an interesting show. Greg Manuel gmanuel at gmconsulting.net From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 00:46:14 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:46:14 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703192246u4478f7eaw9c84ba3371c7aa13@mail.gmail.com> It makes me sad to see someone with such a constant negative outlook on the world, it seems like all of your replies are filled with negativity and hatred May I recommend that you get off the computer, go outside, breath the fresh air and take a stroll around? Cool your jets off, taking some time off the computer might do you some good :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 01:05:53 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:05:53 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <5dc6fd9e0703192229r7331c4aeq2573bd207c382863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Hex wrote.... > If you can't handle internet chat formats then you really do not belong on > the internet...as classic old timers like you guys sadly fade away in time > more of people like me with our new slang and ways of formatting messages > will come in .....snip..... No more of Hex's "new slang" will be coming in. Jay From wayne.smith at charter.net Tue Mar 20 01:20:13 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:20:13 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703200610.l2K69kDV096159@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002901c76ab7$d517ba90$6701a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:05:53 -0500 > From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp > archivesdisappearing?) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0 at HPLAPTOP> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Hex wrote.... > > If you can't handle internet chat formats then you really do not > > belong on the internet...as classic old timers like you guys sadly > > fade away in time more of people like me with our new slang > > and ways > > of formatting messages will come in .....snip..... > > No more of Hex's "new slang" will be coming in. > > Jay > And for that, we thank you. From andrew.wbeelsoi at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 02:02:01 2007 From: andrew.wbeelsoi at gmail.com (Andrew Wbeelsoi) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:02:01 -0400 Subject: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) Message-ID: <1d82d7de0703200002p3f8e1efcs795433fa7b815e9a@mail.gmail.com> http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/3/20/28 Well worth the read. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Mar 20 02:08:20 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:08:20 +0100 Subject: 11/45 works, but.... In-Reply-To: <017801c76a87$f4f87000$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848831D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: dinsdag 20 maart 2007 1:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 11/45 works, but.... > > Brad wrote.... > > Is the rx02 controller a dma device? I'm probably wrong > but I don't > > think I've put it in slots where the NPR was removed. > RX11 (RX01, M7846) is programmed I/O. RX211 (RX02, M8256) can > use DMA via non processor request. So... NPR jumper needs to > be removed for my M8256. > > I checked tonight, and powering them both up (RL02 & RX02) > before the cpu makes no difference. If the RX02 is powered on > when the load button is hit on the RL02, the RL02 will fault > just after spinup. If the RX02 is powered off, the RL02 > doesn't fault at any time and runs just fine. > > My M8256 is set at address 177170, vector 264, priority BR5. > The M7762 is set at address 174400, vector 160, priority BR5. > I'm assuming both at BR5 isn't a problem? > > Jay Taking a wild guess ... have you an AM radio near the 11/45? Could it be that the RX02 when it is on generates a lot of noise? I am thinking of worn brushes on the spindle motor, but I am not sure that motor has carbon brushes ... - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Mar 20 02:10:54 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:10:54 +0100 Subject: 11/45 works, but.... In-Reply-To: <017801c76a87$f4f87000$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848831E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: dinsdag 20 maart 2007 1:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 11/45 works, but.... > > I checked tonight, and powering them both up (RL02 & RX02) > before the cpu makes no difference. If the RX02 is powered on > when the load button is hit on the RL02, the RL02 will fault > just after spinup. If the RX02 is powered off, the RL02 > doesn't fault at any time and runs just fine. > > My M8256 is set at address 177170, vector 264, priority BR5. > The M7762 is set at address 174400, vector 160, priority BR5. > I'm assuming both at BR5 isn't a problem? > > Jay Both at BR5, even if that was wrong would not cause your problem with the RL02 the moment you turn on the RX02. If both at BR5 is a problem it will occur when you do data transfers between the RX02 and the RL02. I am not sure, but I *think* they are normally both at BR5. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From shirsch5 at comcast.net Mon Mar 19 21:12:49 2007 From: shirsch5 at comcast.net (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:12:49 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <af4d09740703190637l455c4bc5g9c135b2fa92035af@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703180332.l2I3WjHO029769@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703181235.IAA20083@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00b301c769d7$f14c67f0$0701a8c0@liberator> <5dc6fd9e0703182109r3c246cjf8f07db6230112f4@mail.gmail.com> <af4d09740703182121m1acff7c4uc25c48a621c83784@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703190721450.7117@monarch.fast.net> <af4d09740703190637l455c4bc5g9c135b2fa92035af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FF4321.10308@comcast.net> James Rice wrote: > On 3/19/07, Steven N. Hirsch <shirsch at adelphia.net> wrote: > >> >> On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, James Rice wrote: >> >> >> > And mirrored at several locations is a good idea >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > That is a problem we all share. I'm hosting a mirror of the NeXT >> archive >> > from Peanuts. I got permission and archived it before it went >> down. It >> > (Peanuts not mine) has been up and down intermittently in the past few >> > years. As far as I know, mine and the mirror at ftp.nice.ch are the >> last >> > two most complete archives of Peanuts publicly available on the net. >> >> And, unless that's a typo, the second is not publically available. It >> prompts me for a login and will not accept anonymous. >> >> >> -- >> > > It's not a typo. The link works for me. > Huh.. All I get is a dialog telling me about authentication failure. From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Mon Mar 19 19:14:05 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:14:05 -0500 Subject: Free to a good home Message-ID: <001a01c76a84$ac20b340$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> To all, Seems my last post started something. I listed the Imsai, PolyMorphic and Sol 20 only as examples of what's in my collection. Sorry for any problems that may have started. One should never rush into a post (in real life as well). When I post additional items for free, I'll make sure not to include any references to my collection. Sorry, Dan Snyder From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 02:58:55 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 02:58:55 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <5dc6fd9e0703192229r7331c4aeq2573bd207c382863@mail.gmail.com> <001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45FF943F.1080408@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Hex wrote.... >> If you can't handle internet chat formats then you really do not >> belong on >> the internet...as classic old timers like you guys sadly fade away in >> time >> more of people like me with our new slang and ways of formatting messages >> will come in .....snip..... > > No more of Hex's "new slang" will be coming in. You kicked him off the list? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 03:04:11 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:04:11 -0500 Subject: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) In-Reply-To: <1d82d7de0703200002p3f8e1efcs795433fa7b815e9a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d82d7de0703200002p3f8e1efcs795433fa7b815e9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FF957B.9050700@oldskool.org> Andrew Wbeelsoi wrote: > http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/3/20/28 > > Well worth the read. Actually, it's more interesting to read the linked articles, which are hardly "smackdowns" as they are described. This page, whatever it is, is incredibly misrepresentative and is more of a smear campaign. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 20 03:52:22 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:52:22 -0400 Subject: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) References: <1d82d7de0703200002p3f8e1efcs795433fa7b815e9a@mail.gmail.com> <45FF957B.9050700@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <028201c76acd$137dcd00$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" <trixter at oldskool.org> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 4:04 AM Subject: Re: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) > Andrew Wbeelsoi wrote: > > http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/3/20/28 > > > > Well worth the read. > > Actually, it's more interesting to read the linked articles, which are > hardly "smackdowns" as they are described. This page, whatever it is, > is incredibly misrepresentative and is more of a smear campaign. > -- I do not believe in posting anybodies personal information like phones numbers and address for all too see on the web, especially for a kid who lives in his parents house (where the parents would be the one getting crank phonecalls). Having said that hexstar is pulling the same kind of annoying junk on the 68kmla.org forum, I guess he can't take a hint. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Mar 20 05:48:26 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <45FD9486.13075.9AE4ADD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070320104826.40897.qmail@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 18 Mar 2007 at 19:11, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > So, I need to replace that varistor - it evidently > was > > there for a reason, and it kept me from blowing up > the > > transistor > Take a look here: > > http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/MA.pdf > > You can toast a varistor if you apply a voltage and > current that's > nigher than its specified ratings. That 100A rating > is only good for > something less than about 25 usec; if an overvoltage > persists for > longer periods, you can take the MOV out with > substantially less > current. That makes sense. I blew this one up with a 12v DC plugpack. I was running it through a big resistor, but what I thought was a 680 ohm resistor was a 6.8 ohm resistor (that'll teach me to work on stuff when I'm tired)... I've since built a better loop current supply, and have it working on the transmit line. Pressing keys on the teletype blinks an LED with signal - different keys produce different blinks, but even 110 baud is too fast to see, really. So all I need to do for that one is swap in an optocoupler and run it into a MAX232. Haven't even started working on the recieve side of the interface, since I am hesitant to try connecting stuff to RX with that varistor blown/missing. So - in replacing this component, what should I be looking for? The only specification givin is 100A, but I see varistors in various places rated in terms of Joules or Volts. I don't want to replace the varistor, only to have it not give me any protection for that transistor. Thanks! -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 08:01:08 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:01:08 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <20070319173644.Q48373@shell.lmi.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022DE9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20070319173644.Q48373@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <13D952C3-4B33-4229-8B70-EE5DEC3A1596@neurotica.com> On Mar 19, 2007, at 8:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Let's comply with the explicit and implicit terms when somebody makes > something available. THIS makes sense. If you put up a big pile of juicy stuff on an FTP or web server and for some reason (bandwidth limitations or billing, etc) you don't want someone to slurp the whole thing, SAY SO SOMEWHERE, and also put into place rate- and connection-limiting functionality to control people who won't control themselves and comply with your wishes. This whole issue is very much a double-edged sword. Every now and then, I DO slurp down the entire contents of an online archive if I run across something and think "wow it would suck if this just went away". Most of the time this is with corporate sites, because lots of things (PDF docs, drivers, etc) just disappear at the whim of suits, and there's usually no other way to get ahold of it. I do respect posted "please don't download this entire archive all at once" requests when such requests are present. In some instances, this is the right thing to do, for the greater good. For example, if Don Maslin's (R.I.P.) boot disk archive had been available online in some form (yes I recognize the technical difficulties in doing so; I'm speaking hypothetically), I'd probably have a copy of it today, as I recognize the rarity of the data. The work he did was fantastic, and a great service to the community, but it'd sure suck if that effort were to completely die with him. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 20 09:00:43 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:00:43 -0600 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FF2E54.6030800@oldskool.org> References: <200703191710.l2JHAVbj012078@floodgap.com> <45FF14D7.5020300@oldskool.org> <200703200007.UAA11365@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45FF2E54.6030800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070320075005.0653ba48@mail> At 06:44 PM 3/19/2007, Jim Leonard wrote: >Not once has anyone answered my question of "hasn't anyone learned from the Don Maslin incident". I guess not. I asked the question as to whether his archive has actually hit the Dumpster or not. At 06:56 PM 3/19/2007, Jim Leonard wrote: >John Foust wrote: >>If I see a cool site, do you think it's OK for me to recursively 'wget' just so I can leisurely browse my local copy > >Yes. > >>and then toss away the bits I don't want? >No. The former is archiving/mirroring/backup. The latter is abuse. At no point was >I advocating abuse. Mirroring usually involves some cooperation between the various hosts. I think we agree that's "nice". The other distinctions get more nebulous, don't they? Certainly the archiving community has benefited from people who've squirreled away long-lost archives of old collections. The way Google Groups benefited from 9-track archives of 80s Usenet posts comes to mind. - John From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 20 08:24:47 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simtel Walnut Creek CD-ROM (speaking of ftp archives) Message-ID: <200703201324.l2KDOlfV016036@floodgap.com> I was trying to find my Simtel Walnut Creek CD and can't (I have no idea where it went). Does anyone have one of these that they would be willing to copy or make an .iso image of? If a physical copy is easier to manage, I'll gladly cover cost of shipping, media and inconvenience; either way, please contact me off list. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. ------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 08:35:41 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:35:41 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070319185043.06516e48@mail> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319185043.06516e48@mail> Message-ID: <310FEAF0-E47F-4374-9210-4991973B79D8@neurotica.com> On Mar 19, 2007, at 9:40 PM, John Foust wrote: >>> To many, an open ftp or web site is a free resource. Without any >>> previous indoctrination in an earlier culture that might prevent >>> wholesale downloading, they'll sap it until they're tired of it. >> >> And still people whine when people slurp all the bits that have >> been made available to slurp? > > I agree with you, though. As there are many types of users, there > are many types of people who make web or ftp archives. Few are > ready for > an onslaught from Digg or any other form of popularity that brings > servers to their knees, or that burns up the monthly limit on > their $30/month hosting service. Many aren't even prepared, > technically or emotionally, for the senseless repeated downloading > of their entire site. Outgoing bandwidth is still expensive enough > to matter for some people. Their generosity exceeds their readiness > to accomodate the leeches and file collectors. Yes, absolutely. It's beginning to look like many people want to make stuff available online just to see themselves do it. > If I see a cool site, > do you think it's OK for me to recursively 'wget' just so I can > leisurely > browse my local copy, and then toss away the bits I don't want? For that reason, no, I think that's a crappy thing to do. But to take a "snapshot" of an important archive in case it disappears, I fully advocate it. Again I call attention to Don Maslin's archive. There'd be twenty copies of that entire archive floating around today if it had been publicly available in "pile o' bits" form. If someone sets up a public server in such a way that excessive use by others costs them money, fails to put into place any way to control such use, and then a user runs their bill up by using their public server, then it's pretty easy to see who the fool is in that scenario...it's not the user. Public archives are just that...public. If someone doesn't want that information to be downloaded, they shouldn't make it available for download. Part of the point behind our activities is historic preservation, and in terms of bits, that means making copies...as many copies as possible, to keep things from disappearing. The "lemon tree in the front yard" analogy does not work. That's on private property, in someone's yard. A public server is just that...public. If it's not intended to be, don't make it so. If someone is contemplating setting up a server to disseminate information publicly but is going to be cheap about it, just don't bother. Give the data to someone who knows how to make it available in a reasonable way. Unless, of course, the goal *is* really for that person to see himself doing it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 20 08:53:33 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:53:33 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftparchivesdisappearing?) References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com><5dc6fd9e0703192229r7331c4aeq2573bd207c382863@mail.gmail.com> <001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001e01c76af7$2713e4b0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> > No more of Hex's "new slang" will be coming in. Your list, your call. Still, I feel the list, and possibly the hobby, are poorer because you two (and many others) couldn't hear what each other were saying. Vince From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 20 08:55:38 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:55:38 -0700 Subject: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) References: <1d82d7de0703200002p3f8e1efcs795433fa7b815e9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002401c76af7$7152b2e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Andrew Wbeelsoi" <andrew.wbeelsoi at gmail.com> > http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/3/20/28 > > Well worth the read. You don't like the guy, I get that. So you made up this slam page and posted it. Who is the greater jerk now? Vince From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 20 09:13:46 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <200703201413.l2KEDkBM015370@floodgap.com> Against my better judgment, I'll reply to this, since it is a point not heretofore addressed. Dave McGuire wrote, > If someone is contemplating setting up a server to disseminate > information publicly but is going to be cheap about it, just don't > bother. Give the data to someone who knows how to make it available > in a reasonable way. Unless, of course, the goal *is* really for > that person to see himself doing it. This argument doesn't scale, particularly in our very narrow field of interest. How would you get the (to use an example on my mind) simtel.nets or the download.coms of the world to be interested in Don Maslin's boot disk archive? How would you *find* someone with that kind of interest *and* the needed (per your claim) disk space and network investment? The kneejerk answer to b) is, natch, this list. And look at how *few* on this list would actually measure up to your criteria for the network alone, let alone interest level. So, by your argument, someone like that would therefore have no recourse but to let their collection rot because they shouldn't make it available at all. It also makes the corollary that those who spend money on some sort of hosting are therefore not spending enough, something proponents of this view have not adequately addressed and have no right to assert. This is the kind of thing that makes mega-archives, and mega-archives collapse under their own weight. What this really boils down to is elitism, that people aren't allowed to contribute in *any* way to the community if their method of contribution isn't (per the arbitrary criteria of you, Jim and others of like mind) 100%. Baloney. This isn't a "bad neighbour" situation like open proxies, badly configured mailhosts or Trojanned boxes where such machines cause damage and *should* be excluded: this is someone offering their files for the uptake of the community. If people used your yardstick to determine if they could make such offerings, then there would be tremendously fewer avenues of of such contribution. I'll return to my regularly scheduled lurk. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones. ----------------------------------- From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue Mar 20 09:21:47 2007 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:21:47 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/19/obituaries/20cnd-backus.html?ex=1332043200&en=adde3ee5a1875330&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink Ram From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 09:32:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:32:06 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/07, Ram Meenakshisundaram <RMeenaks at olf.com> wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/19/obituaries/20cnd-backus.html?ex=1332043200&en=adde3ee5a1875330&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink I caught that earlier. The thing that really snagged my attention was when they got to "Backus-Naur notation" and I read he was _that_ Backus. I am just old enough to have been paid to program in FORTRAN, but I'm really glad I didn't have to do much of it. Besides lifting programming out of its primordial foundations, John Backus gave us the platform from which ADVENT sprang. No disrepect to Grace Hopper intended, but can you imagine trying to write a text adventure in COBOL? -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 20 09:34:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:34:36 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <310FEAF0-E47F-4374-9210-4991973B79D8@neurotica.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <F5A07FA3-494F-4CF4-A1D3-53BF4B4D3562@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319185043.06516e48@mail> <310FEAF0-E47F-4374-9210-4991973B79D8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45FFF0FC.8080908@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > It's beginning to look like many people want to make > stuff available online just to see themselves do it. Human nature; no way around that - everyone likes a bit of self-promotion. The trick I think is to allow them to do their bit, but also make it easy to participate in a far bigger scheme (see Dave Dunfield's global software repository thread). That way everyone can do their bit, little or large, but almost as a side-effect they're participating in a far bigger project. At the end of the day, everybody wins. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 09:54:18 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:54:18 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FFF59A.3070200@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/20/07, Ram Meenakshisundaram <RMeenaks at olf.com> wrote: >> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/19/obituaries/20cnd-backus.html?ex=1332043200&en=adde3ee5a1875330&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink >> > > I caught that earlier. The thing that really snagged my attention was > when they got to "Backus-Naur notation" and I read he was _that_ > Backus. > > I am just old enough to have been paid to program in FORTRAN, but I'm > really glad I didn't have to do much of it. Besides lifting > programming out of its primordial foundations, John Backus gave us the > platform from which ADVENT sprang. No disrepect to Grace Hopper > intended, but can you imagine trying to write a text adventure in > COBOL? I've done quite a bit of scientific programming in support of my father the scientist. There's some stuff for which I just prefer FORTRAN. I've read much of his stuff, being a fan of his. He'll be missed. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 20 09:56:42 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45FFF0FC.8080908@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Mar 20, 7 09:34:36 am" Message-ID: <200703201456.l2KEugIP017766@floodgap.com> > > It's beginning to look like many people want to make > > stuff available online just to see themselves do it. > > Human nature; no way around that - everyone likes a bit of self-promotion. I don't think this can be underestimated. People like to be personally invested in a project. It *is* work to do imaging and cataloguing and I think people do want to see their names attached. I know *I* like it. But here's an angle I haven't heard people suggest. If the issue really is just "contributing to the community," then why not put 20 bucks/euros/zlotych in an envelope to cover media, shipping and inconvenience, and ask them to send you a physical copy. It won't wallop their bandwidth that way, and you get your "backup." If this isn't good enough for you, then maybe the argument isn't really simply about making such resources available. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In youth we learn; in age we understand. -- Von Ebner-Eschenbach ----------- From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Mar 20 10:20:17 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:20:17 +0100 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?) In-Reply-To: <005801c76a6b$b2134240$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <005801c76a6b$b2134240$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <1174404018.17089.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 21:15 +0000, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > (snip) > Hex Star's comments might rub you up the wrong way, but he's young > (or at least he claims he is, and his sentence structure does back him > up in his claim :-)) I started posting to this list as a 14- or 15-year-old. (How time flies.) Though there were obviously limits to the values of my contributions back then, and probably now, I don't think I acted this obnoxiously - and if I did, Jay would be absolutely right in booting me. Age limits my technical competency, but it shouldn't limit the ability for common courtesy and basic English! I'm joining people in thanking Jay for booting the eeedjit off the list. Maybe when he grows up he'll be less annoying, and we could let him back in... -Tore :) From kth at srv.net Tue Mar 20 10:22:23 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:22:23 -0600 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FFFC2F.8080300@srv.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I caught that earlier. The thing that really snagged my attention was > when they got to "Backus-Naur notation" and I read he was _that_ > Backus. > > I am just old enough to have been paid to program in FORTRAN, but I'm > really glad I didn't have to do much of it. Besides lifting > programming out of its primordial foundations, John Backus gave us the > platform from which ADVENT sprang. No disrepect to Grace Hopper > intended, but can you imagine trying to write a text adventure in > COBOL? I limit my text adventure games to RPG-II. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Mar 20 10:24:02 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:24:02 +0100 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <00a901c76a3a$dde41bf0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <00a901c76a3a$dde41bf0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1174404243.17089.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 10:25 -0500, Jay West wrote: > John wrote.... > > Without any > > previous indoctrination in an earlier culture that might prevent > > wholesale downloading, they'll sap it until they're tired of it. > You're completely right. I just find it odd and/or sad that courtesy is > somehow limited to "an earlier culture". I don't think it is; I just don't think that bandwidth is as limited as it was back then, and the frugal use of it thus becomes less of an issue of courtesy. A few years back, I'd have agreed with you one hundred percent, but it's 2007, you get multi-terabit hosting plans for $6 a month, without bandwidth fines... -Tore :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Mar 20 10:24:52 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:24:52 +0100 Subject: ftp archives disappearing In-Reply-To: <C6E5074B-5523-4794-8E7D-4C3070A4AF87@neurotica.com> References: <914891fd5307cee7b6e98f4e41d7b71e@valleyimplants.com> <C6E5074B-5523-4794-8E7D-4C3070A4AF87@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1174404292.17089.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 03:34 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > The only way the data on a machine is 100% secure is > if the machine is disconnected from the network, (...) This is why I personally recommend Comcast broadband. -Tore :) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 20 10:31:30 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing In-Reply-To: <1174404292.17089.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> from Tore Sinding Bekkedal at "Mar 20, 7 04:24:52 pm" Message-ID: <200703201531.l2KFVUmT011216@floodgap.com> > > The only way the data on a machine is 100% secure is > > if the machine is disconnected from the network, (...) > > This is why I personally recommend Comcast broadband. lol! SBC can be very, er, secure also. :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- So what's my point? I don't know, it's fun to talk about. -- Judy Blackburn From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 20 10:35:16 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:35:16 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing References: <914891fd5307cee7b6e98f4e41d7b71e@valleyimplants.com><C6E5074B-5523-4794-8E7D-4C3070A4AF87@neurotica.com> <1174404292.17089.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <007701c76b05$5c75c8e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Tore Sinding Bekkedal" <toresbe at ifi.uio.no> > On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 03:34 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> The only way the data on a machine is 100% secure is >> if the machine is disconnected from the network, (...) > > This is why I personally recommend Comcast broadband. But dial-up is almost as good and so much cheaper :). Vince From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Mar 20 10:43:06 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:43:06 +0000 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703200843r77f69a5rbfce585a2a773315@mail.gmail.com> On 20/03/07, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > John Backus gave us the > platform from which ADVENT sprang. No disrepect to Grace Hopper > intended, but can you imagine trying to write a text adventure in > COBOL? > I've done it .. full multi-user and all. OK, it was actually in "Speedbase", a COBOL-with-bells, whistles, text-based-gui and databases, and I never actually finished it, but I did it... I also 98% ported "Countdown to Doom" (an Acornsoft adventure for the BBC Micro) to BOS/COBOL, just to see if it could be done. (It could..) From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 11:12:47 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:12:47 -0500 Subject: back to ccmp topics please References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <5dc6fd9e0703192229r7331c4aeq2573bd207c382863@mail.gmail.com><001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45FF943F.1080408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <015b01c76b0a$9a137580$6400a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... > You kicked him off the list? Effectively, yes. His posts now require moderation (and will not be approved at this point). He also has the admin no-mail flag set so he doesn't get list traffic. It will stay that way till I decide what to do about it; and during that period I wasn't going to continue to have gasoline poured on the list. Teo wrote... >I do not believe in posting anybodies personal information like phones This "Andrew" account was unsubbed this morning when I read this stuff. >Having said that hexstar is pulling the same kind of annoying junk on the >68kmla.org forum, I guess he can't take a hint. I have tried talking with Hex Star off-list, and my points/requests seem to be ignored. Vincent wrote... >Still, I feel the list, and possibly the hobby, are poorer because you two >(and many others) couldn't hear what each other were saying. When the exact same post is made over and over because the desired response wasn't received... I think I can hear what that is saying loud and clear. I emailed him off-list a few times to attempt to resolve/coach. Did You? To provide a balancing counterpoint - I want to remind some of the old-timers that it is the young new blood that will keep the hobby alive. Bottom line - this list will get back to the discussion of classic computing and drop all this bickering and petty arguments immediately, even if I have to set the moderation flag for the entire membership and manually approve/reject every damn post. I think all listmembers should pause before each post they make and ask themselves if this post is courteous and considerate. This is a private mailing list, and posting here is a privilege - not a right. You do NOT have the right to post whatever you feel in whatever manner you chose. Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 20 11:12:43 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:12:43 -0500 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <200703201456.l2KEugIP017766@floodgap.com> References: <200703201456.l2KEugIP017766@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <460007FB.4090708@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > But here's an angle I haven't heard people suggest. If the issue really is > just "contributing to the community," then why not put 20 bucks/euros/zlotych > in an envelope to cover media, shipping and inconvenience, and ask them to > send you a physical copy. It won't wallop their bandwidth that way, and you > get your "backup." To be honest, I don't think a lot of archive maintainers make it clear that this is a perfectly acceptable thing to do and for users to ask for. Yes that's silly (that it should even be necessary), but I think for a lot of users it doesn't occur to them that this might be possible - it's probably a very good idea for archive maintainers to make this angle very clear on their site. It won't catch anything like everyone of course, but it'd probably go some way toward helping. And it's only five minutes' work. (e.g. I know Jay has said on here that he'd prefer people ask for media-based copies of classiccmp data rather than downloading huge amounts - but nowhere can I see on the bitsavers "home page" where it says this is the preferred way over large downloads) > If this isn't good enough for you, then maybe the argument isn't really > simply about making such resources available. Oh, I'm trying to avoid the whole argument side of the discussion :) Within the context of *asking first* for the purposes of snapshotting / mirroring (as originally raised by hex star) it doesn't seem so terrible; within the context of everyday users killing someone's bandwidth by trying to download *everything* on a site it seems very discorteous. As an observer of this thread it seems there's a lot of arguing at cross-purposes going on :) (Actually, there's an interesting issue here: "modern" computer users generally seem to have very little concept of "how big" some piece of data is. We were all taught to know the limits of the medium, but that seems to have gone out the window these days. It actually wouldn't surprise me to find that half the people out there trying to suck down whole sites aren't driven by greed or lack of consideration, but simply because they don't appreciate that it's a *lot* of data they're dealing with) Anyway, I refuse to get drawn into this ;) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 20 11:15:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:15:19 -0500 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70703200843r77f69a5rbfce585a2a773315@mail.gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70703200843r77f69a5rbfce585a2a773315@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46000897.5030400@yahoo.co.uk> Rob wrote: > I also 98% ported "Countdown to Doom" (an Acornsoft adventure for the > BBC Micro) to BOS/COBOL, just to see if it could be done. (It > could..) Hmm, I believe I have the source to that somewhere (assuming it was a Jon Thackray creation) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 20 11:05:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <1174404243.17089.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <5dc6fd9e0703182157v6816a675m50559f1ea6da43e8@mail.gmail.com> <200703190507.l2J576bP009688@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703182218w7242e145v42d1349b919bb152@mail.gmail.com> <009201c76a2a$61494170$6400a8c0@BILLING> <6.2.3.4.2.20070319094653.0645e368@mail> <00a901c76a3a$dde41bf0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <1174404243.17089.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200703201617.MAA27967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > A few years back, I'd have agreed with you one hundred percent, but > it's 2007, you get multi-terabit hosting plans for $6 a month, > without bandwidth fines... Where? I expect anywhere you find to be unacceptable to me, but I'm willing to be surprised. (I'll be happy to into more detail, but not on-list; I've tried to write that a couple of times and each time it's turned into a continuation of the rant thread Jay said he wanted stopped.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 20 11:22:00 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:22:00 -0500 Subject: TV Show Alert: Antikythera Mechanism In-Reply-To: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOMEHJELAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> References: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOMEHJELAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> Message-ID: <46000A28.9000207@yahoo.co.uk> G Manuel (GMC) wrote: > Hi All, > > Just a heads up that tonight (Tuesday 3/20/07) the show, Ancient > Discoveries, on the History Channel at 9:00PM Eastern and repeated around > 12:00am - 1:00am Wednesday Morning, will be on. It is titled "Ancient > Computer?" and deals with the Antikythera Mechanism. Hey, a heads-up for a show in a country that I'm in and on a channel that I can get - now there's a first! :-) I'll try and catch that one... thanks Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 11:32:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:32:54 -0400 Subject: Large data (was Re: ftp archives disappearing?) Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703200932y5bb90990oa23a2738c966fa01@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/07, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > (Actually, there's an interesting issue here: "modern" computer users > generally seem to have very little concept of "how big" some piece of data is. > We were all taught to know the limits of the medium, but that seems to have > gone out the window these days. It actually wouldn't surprise me to find that > half the people out there trying to suck down whole sites aren't driven by > greed or lack of consideration, but simply because they don't appreciate that > it's a *lot* of data they're dealing with) Like the time (10 years ago ;-) that a user tried to vi a 30MB file on an old Sun box... he was astonished that he couldn't do it. The problem was that vi wanted to buffer the edits in /var/tmp which had about 10MB free. Things did not go well. He couldn't understand why that failed when editing 1MB-2MB files worked just fine. He just didn't see the difference. A file was a file. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 11:33:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:33:54 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com>, <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FFAA82.23805.11D42885@cclist.sydex.com> > On 3/20/07, Ram Meenakshisundaram <RMeenaks at olf.com> wrote: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/19/obituaries/20cnd-backus.html?ex=1332043200&en=adde3ee5a1875330&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink Random thoughts... Considering FORTRAN for what it was when it came out, it was pretty remarkable. I recall an old ACM (was it SIGPLAN?) recollection of one of the first users of 704(?) FORTRAN. What impressed me was that this compiler-on-cards pointed out a syntax error with message of the form: A COMPUTED GOTO REQUIRES A COMMA BETWEEN THE STATEMENT LIST AND VARIABLE. E.G. GOTO (100,200,300),J At one point in time, given machines with different character sets and word- and character sizes, FORTRAN was about the only way to write a portable program. If the program involved, for instance, text manipulation, one included as the first card of the data file one punched with all of the characters of the alphabet to be used and read it into an integer array using 80A1 format. Did any computer built after 1960 NOT have a FORTRAN implementation? IIRC, that was a big selling point for the PDP-8. There was a period in time where just about any serious programmer had a copy of McCracken on their bookshelves. Didn't Backus also participate in the Algol-60 effort? There were big sections of the CDC FTN compiler (prior to the introduction of SYMPL) that were written in FORTRAN. One of the biggest nightmares was the processor for allocating storage in COMMON and EQUIVALENCE statements--a big mass of assigned GOTOs. Even after I understood how it worked, I was afraid to touch it. Sense switch 2 up and go, John! Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 11:37:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:37:17 -0700 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <20070320104826.40897.qmail@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <45FD9486.13075.9AE4ADD@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070320104826.40897.qmail@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45FFAB4D.674.11D73FF8@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2007 at 3:48, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > So - in replacing this component, what should I be > looking for? The only specification givin is 100A, but > I see varistors in various places rated in terms of > Joules or Volts. I don't want to replace the varistor, > only to have it not give me any protection for that > transistor. Well, you know that this is either a 20 ma or 60 ma current loop setup, so why not use Ohm's law and compute what the voltage at that point should be, then add some for a safely margin, say, 50% and select the varistor accordingly? Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 20 11:45:17 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:45:17 -0700 Subject: Large data (was Re: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703200932y5bb90990oa23a2738c966fa01@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703200932y5bb90990oa23a2738c966fa01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46000F9D.1070409@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Like the time (10 years ago ;-) that a user tried to vi a 30MB file on > an old Sun box... he was astonished that he couldn't do it. The > problem was that vi wanted to buffer the edits in /var/tmp which had > about 10MB free. Things did not go well. > > He couldn't understand why that failed when editing 1MB-2MB files > worked just fine. He just didn't see the difference. A file was a > file. I think it is a lot more fundamental than that; nothing that goes on "in the box" is real to most people. At some level they understand that it can _become_ real, but disk space, bandwidth, power drain, and basic maintenance are completely automagical to the average user. That also, I think, applies directly to online communication - saying something online isn't *really* saying it. I can't see a kid like Hex Star acting like that in a face-to-face group of adult men. Actually, I think a lot of us tend to be much more vociferous in online discussions. It's a natural tendency. Doc From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 20 11:46:22 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:46:22 -0700 Subject: back to ccmp topics please References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <5dc6fd9e0703192229r7331c4aeq2573bd207c382863@mail.gmail.com><001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP><45FF943F.1080408@oldskool.org> <015b01c76b0a$9a137580$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <008601c76b0f$4b534ba0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> > Vincent wrote... >>Still, I feel the list, and possibly the hobby, are poorer because you two >>(and many others) couldn't hear what each other were saying. > When the exact same post is made over and over because the desired > response wasn't received... I think I can hear what that is saying loud > and clear. I emailed him off-list a few times to attempt to resolve/coach. > Did You? I thought, poorly expressed as they were, that he had some points. At several points in the discussion I felt strongly enough to reply, but hadn't fully caught up with the discussion, so I held off. And, if I had been trying to coach, I'd have been emailing several people involved in various sides in the discussion. As I said, it was your call. There is a fine line that young people walk where we want to be tolerant because they are young and don't understand what they are doing, and that place where we've had enough, and decide to punish them as adults because they should know better. Hex was pushing the line. I still think various parties had points that were not well heard, but agree it is time to move onto something else for a while. (I am sure the points will be raised again from time to time, hopefully by cooler heads.) Vince From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Mar 20 12:00:01 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:00:01 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4A2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Hex Star wrote: Isn't the idea of doing that such that it will get downloaded by others and thus preserved? But then with all the limitations these people put on downloaders this purpose no longer exists which essentially makes the archive useless. Billy: No, that is NOT the purpose of an archive. You miss the point that the purpose of an archive is to download a piece of software or a manual that you need. No everyone wants to accumulate massive files that they don't use. So the limitations DO NOT make an archive useless to someone who actually uses the information. The limitations only affect the mass accumulators, who really don't use the information - they are not users of an archive but rather data farmers. Billy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 20 12:08:50 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:08:50 -0700 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <20070320104826.40897.qmail@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <BAY138-F3871FC0832B854DFF25BB6A3750@phx.gbl> >From: Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> ---snip--- > >So - in replacing this component, what should I be >looking for? The only specification givin is 100A, but >I see varistors in various places rated in terms of >Joules or Volts. I don't want to replace the varistor, >only to have it not give me any protection for that >transistor. > >Thanks! > >-Ian Hi One could also use a pair of power zeners. Wired back to back, they make a fare protector. Actually, in your case, a single zener might be better. It would clamp the voltage in one direction to the normal operating level while allowing only a diode drop the other direction. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ It?s tax season, make sure to follow these few simple tips http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMMartagline From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 12:22:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:22:57 -0700 Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <BAY138-F3871FC0832B854DFF25BB6A3750@phx.gbl> References: <20070320104826.40897.qmail@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <BAY138-F3871FC0832B854DFF25BB6A3750@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <45FFB601.16968.12010F0E@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2007 at 10:08, dwight elvey wrote: > One could also use a pair of power zeners. Wired back to back, they > make a fare protector. Actually, in your case, a single zener might be > better. It would clamp the voltage in one direction to the normal > operating level while allowing only a diode drop the other direction. > Dwight One could also use both, since the purpose of each differs. The zener will protect the unit from inadvertent moderate overvoltage and reverse polarity errors. The MOV will protect the unit against high- current transients. I wonder if the MOV's original intention was to protect the unit when installed in a leased-line arrangement (i.e., no modem). Induced high-current transients are not uncommon in such setups. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 20 12:31:48 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:31:48 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> Billy Pettit wrote: > If I send manuals to be scanned and put on a web site, is that breaking the > law? Here returns all the arguments about copyright law that have ensnarled > this list before. Generally the answer is yes. But as one member > responded, many copyright owners give a "wink and a nod" without officially > blessing the activity. Copyright law's murky at best and varies wildly from country to country. It's another reason I'd aim for a distributed archive as even if one particular corner's hit by copyright problems it *shouldn't* take out the entire archive (with all the content that *is* OK to distribute). Now mirroring though, ugh - I'm not sure where the responsibility lies there. I'm not even sure how to collectively cover our butts with that one. It wouldn't surprise me if some countries have laws where the "fault" is with the person downloading the content for mirroring, even if the person who actually supplies the content suggests that there isn't a copyright problem. Maybe a "suck it and see" approach is needed, but we build something into the archive to easily flag specific files for removal (along with a reason, such as copyright violation). In no way am I advocating blatant copyright violation - I'm just being a realist and thinking that at some point there *will* be problemsbecause something will sneak through that somebody later objects to. It seems that the lack of a defined way of dealing with such problems when they happen is what's caused a lot of trouble with these so-called "file sharing" networks, *not* that they happened in the first place per se. > And he makes no effort to preserve the older unsaleable software. So the > dilemma is how to save all this old software for the future? The method a > few of us use is to make copies, put them in private archives and > specifically prevent them from being accessed on the web. There may a very > small private distribution to individuals known to have an interest in the > software and willing to follow the owner's rules. Hmmm, so do you think that one way of publishing content might be "available to mirror, but not for public distribution"? That way the data would still get mirrored, but wouldn't be accessible by the public. I wonder how the lawyers of the world view such things? (it seems acceptable to *me* - but the data *is* still being illegally distributed, just on a very small scale) > There doesn't seem to be any understanding that not everyone wants wide > distribution of the software archives. Nor does he understand that what he > wants to do could set off the wrath of IP owners against the current public > archives. We survive at the whim of these IP owners. And many of them, > like the RIAA, are in a bad temper. I suppose it does come down to a question of scale in the case of distribution; how much is too much? I mean all sorts of copyright laws get broken every day with things like people recording TV shows to VCR, or lending their friends their music CDs etc. and nobody gets in trouble for that. > What a few of us are doing is ensuring multiple copies are archived without > shouting it to the world. It achieves the goals of a lasting archive. And > it keeps the Eye of Sauron away from us. But it's still breaking the law, surely? Just because it's not so visible doesn't make it legal. So at some point there has to be a line, and that line is different depending on who objects to it and what country they happen to be in. So perhaps it does just boil down to being sensible about it: seek permission where possible, and provide mechanisms to remove data that is legally objected to. cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 20 12:43:33 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200703201801.OAA28887@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I suppose it does come down to a question of scale in the case of > distribution; how much is too much? "Enough to annoy someone with deep pockets in a relevant jurisdiction", seems to me to be the most pragmatic answer. > I mean all sorts of copyright laws get broken every day with things > like people recording TV shows to VCR, or lending their friends their > music CDs etc. and nobody gets in trouble for that. Lending someone a music CD actually is not a copyright violation (well, in most jurisdictions - there may be one somewhere that objects to it), any more than lending someone a book is. Giving - or even lending - someone a *(homemade) copy of* a CD, on the other hand, is somewhere between "unclear" and "blatant violation". Recording TV shows to VCR to timeshift (ie, to watch at a time other than when the show airs), I believe there's case law saying that's acceptable, at least in the USA - that's why the TiVo and its ilk are permitted. Recording TV shows to VCR and then dubbing off multiple copies and handing them out, that's a violation. When I get a new music CD, one of the first things I do is rip a copy to disk. I believe this is OK, at least in Canada, provided I don't then proceed to, say, give away burnt copies, or lend out the original and still listen to the ripped copy. > But it's still breaking the law, surely? I'm not sure to what extent it's fair to call copyright infringement "breaking the law"; this gets into semantic nitpickery about the difference between civil torts and criminal code violations - complicated by the fact that in the USA, a lot of stuff that (IMO) should be a civil matter between the copyright holder and the putative infringer now *is* a criminal code matter. Yes, much of the archiving and sharing we (TINW) do is technically copyright violation. Whether it is copyright violation that will actually get anyone in trouble is another matter; I think what you are (and we should be) trying for here is a way to make sure we stay on the safe side of *that* line. Like, apparently, many of us here, I do not consider all copyright infringement equally wrong; I won't burn someone a copy of a current music CD, but I will pass around abandonware docs and sometimes even software. (Whether such copyright violation is immoral or unethical is another question entirely, one each archive maintainer and user has to answer individually. Most seem to come down on the "okay" side....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 13:06:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:06:24 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45FFC030.17011.1228D60E@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2007 at 12:31, Jules Richardson wrote: > Copyright law's murky at best and varies wildly from country to country. It's > another reason I'd aim for a distributed archive as even if one particular > corner's hit by copyright problems it *shouldn't* take out the entire archive > (with all the content that *is* OK to distribute). As an author writing code in a given country, it would be my expectation that said code (or documentation) would be protected with the laws of that country. In regard to copyright, it's generally a safe bet that copyright is good for a minimum of 70 years after publication--and probably longer if you're talking about a WTO country. This is long enough that ANY computer literature or programs that have been published are under copyright protection. Being out of print or distrubution is not a legal excuse for violating copyright--not for some old article from Byte magazine, or an old Karl King march or a computer program. It is always the most prudent action to ASK if something may be posted. It's important when asking to observe that you are not asking the copyright owner to put things in the public domain, but simply to agree to an alternate distribution method. His (or any appropriate pronoun here) rights still are in force and infringement may still be prosecuted. Offering to add an explicit copyright notice to the posted material might improve the odds of success., And if the copyright holder refuses, it's prudent to respect that wish--period. You didn't create the material, you don't own it and attaching a label such as "abandonware" doesn't put you on any higher legal ground. I'm assuming that before Al puts something up on bitsavers, he makes some sort of effort to get an okay from the copyright holder before posting. At least I hope he does. Cheers, Chuck From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 20 13:14:46 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:14:46 -0700 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4A2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <00b001c76b1b$a51738c0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Billy Pettit" <Billy.Pettit at wdc.com> >Hex Star wrote: >> >>Isn't the idea of doing that such that it will get downloaded by >>others and thus preserved? But then with all the limitations these people >>put on downloaders this purpose no longer exists which essentially makes >>the >>archive useless. > > No, that is NOT the purpose of an archive. > > You miss the point that the purpose of an archive is to download a piece > of > software or a manual that you need. No everyone wants to accumulate > massive > files that they don't use. > > So the limitations DO NOT make an archive useless to someone who actually > uses the information. > > The limitations only affect the mass accumulators, who really don't use > the > information - they are not users of an archive but rather data farmers. I disagree with both parties here. I don't think the "purpose of the archive" is any one thing. The archive is there to serve a variety of purposes. Maybe I need a manual to fix some vintage hardware. Maybe I'm doing a Master's thesis comparing various computer systems of old. Maybe I'm just curious. Maybe I'm young and believe I'm immortal and can single-handedly (or with the help of other like-minded youth) archive the data for all time. I don't see that as important, or even in the purvue of the archivist. (Just like I don't see it as in the purvue of music associations which purpose I originally bought my music and DVDs for.) Now, there are separate issues about curtesy to the archivists, etc., which do affect other people, and thus deserve consideration. Vince From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Mar 20 13:15:18 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:15:18 -0500 Subject: ftp archives/archiving system software In-Reply-To: <01a701c76a89$a4df2620$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <E1HTirP-0000jo-Od@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West >Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:50 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: ftp archives/archiving system software > >Time to kill both of these threads. Obviously tempers have gotten out of control. Let's keep it on topic and courteous. > >Jay Funny how this got ignored completely. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 20 13:30:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:30:21 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <200703201801.OAA28887@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> <200703201801.OAA28887@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4600283D.3040006@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >> I suppose it does come down to a question of scale in the case of >> distribution; how much is too much? > > "Enough to annoy someone with deep pockets in a relevant jurisdiction", > seems to me to be the most pragmatic answer. Indeed. >> I mean all sorts of copyright laws get broken every day with things >> like people recording TV shows to VCR, or lending their friends their >> music CDs etc. and nobody gets in trouble for that. > > Lending someone a music CD actually is not a copyright violation (well, > in most jurisdictions - there may be one somewhere that objects to it) I'm fairly certain it used to be in the UK, same for film - the copyright notice states that lending is illegal. Maybe things are a little less draconian now... (but then with more DRM around these days, it seems like the companies are winning the war and people can do even less now with things that they have in their possession than they once could) > Recording TV shows to VCR to timeshift (ie, to watch at a time other > than when the show airs), I believe there's case law saying that's > acceptable, at least in the USA - that's why the TiVo and its ilk are > permitted. Now I believe that's still illegal in the UK - but it's not illegal to sell a device capable of doing it, it's just technically illegal for a user to actually use it for that purpose. > Yes, much of the archiving and sharing we (TINW) do is technically > copyright violation. Whether it is copyright violation that will > actually get anyone in trouble is another matter; I think what you are > (and we should be) trying for here is a way to make sure we stay on the > safe side of *that* line. ... or at least that if we do cross that line in someone's eyes, there are easy ways of correcting the problem without harming the entire archive. > Like, apparently, many of us here, I do not > consider all copyright infringement equally wrong; ... and nor do the courts, it seems, but the problem is that the law's murky at best, particularly in a global environment. I can't see how we can realistically avoid falling foul of it at some point - it's either that or seek written distribution permission for *anything* that's put online, which would probably rule out most things given that companies have folded or changed hands many times, authors may be no longer with us, and the question of who actually "owns" any given item is difficult to say. The position's something that just needs to be agreed on up-front I think, rather than worried about later (which is what always seems to bite the big online "public services") cheers Jules From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 20 14:18:32 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <46000897.5030400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70703200843r77f69a5rbfce585a2a773315@mail.gmail.com> <46000897.5030400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703201218010.24688@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Rob wrote: > > I also 98% ported "Countdown to Doom" (an Acornsoft adventure for the > > BBC Micro) to BOS/COBOL, just to see if it could be done. (It > > could..) > > Hmm, I believe I have the source to that somewhere (assuming it was a Jon > Thackray creation) The "Countdown to Doom" trilogy was ported to Inform some years ago. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Mar 20 14:19:36 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:19:36 -0700 Subject: Apologize -ftp archives/archiving system software Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4A3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Julian Wolfe wrote: >Time to kill both of these threads. Obviously tempers have gotten out of control. Let's keep it on topic and courteous. > >Jay Funny how this got ignored completely. Billy: Not ignored, but I read messages date code sequential and replied until I saw Jay's message. I apologize to the list and to Jay for dragging this out, even if it was unintentional. Billy From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Mar 20 14:29:38 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:29:38 -0500 Subject: Floppy Disk Controller evaluation / characterization Message-ID: <200703201929.l2KJTZpc001797@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Guys, I've just posted to my site TESTFDC 1.0, which is a small utility that will test your floppy controller for single/double density operation at all data rates available to your drives - including the special case of MFM with 128 byte sectors (Of all the machines I've got here, only ONE passes that test!). This should make it a bit easier to find PC/drive combinations that will work with ImageDisk. I've also started a "registry" of mainboards and add-in controllers with the TESTFDC results - this is posted to the site as well, currently it's very small and not overly useful (just the hardware I've tested), however I hope that with your help it may grow to be at least somewhat useful. If anyone can provide information for hardware not currently listed, that would be very much appreciated. Regards. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cmcnabb at vt.edu Tue Mar 20 11:42:45 2007 From: cmcnabb at vt.edu (Christopher McNabb) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:42:45 -0400 Subject: Large data (was Re: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703200932y5bb90990oa23a2738c966fa01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <C2258745.ED20%cmcnabb@vt.edu> On 3/20/07 12:32 PM, "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > > Like the time (10 years ago ;-) that a user tried to vi a 30MB file on > an old Sun box... he was astonished that he couldn't do it. The > problem was that vi wanted to buffer the edits in /var/tmp which had > about 10MB free. Things did not go well. > Heck, I still have users who try to use vi to edit files that are larger than /var/tmp and /var/tmp is upwards of 8 gigabytes! -- Christopher L McNabb Tel: 540 231 7554 Senior Systems Engineer Email: cmcnabb at vt.edu Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.205622N 80.414595W ARS: N2UX Grid Square: EM97SD From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 11:48:59 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:48:59 -0700 Subject: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) In-Reply-To: <1d82d7de0703200002p3f8e1efcs795433fa7b815e9a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1d82d7de0703200002p3f8e1efcs795433fa7b815e9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703200948j1cd37917xaae370a775660458@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/07, Andrew Wbeelsoi <andrew.wbeelsoi at gmail.com> wrote: > > http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/3/20/28 > > Well worth the read. > How is that called for??? And I'm not banned from this list... From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 12:07:43 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:07:43 -0700 Subject: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0703201007h71e89e7eq41ce39ffc0d50c1d@mail.gmail.com> That was EXTREMELY inappropiate and uncalled for!!! I have called the admin of the list and he is removing that post...that is so uncalled for!!! As for my 68kmla request, what's wrong with requesting help with preserving a archive that the admin has made difficult to archive? The goal of this whole vintage community is to preserve vintage data isn't it? From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 20 15:04:24 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:04:24 -0400 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <1174404243.17089.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:24:02 +0100, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: >A few years back, I'd have agreed with you one hundred percent, but it's >2007, you get multi-terabit hosting plans for $6 a month, without >bandwidth fines... "without bandwidth fines... " is not true! I called and got a quote to build a Computer Collectables site along the lines of what has been talked about. Now I have some real numbers to work with, I am considering doing something in that direction, but more about that in a future muttering. I will poll the list as a go/no-go dcisions get closer .... In the mean time here is a short somewhat educational rant relating to several postings on teh subject of late. I love the way GBytes per month and GbitsPerSecond are bounced around by sails people. Lets take a moment to do some basic math. Using the old 10bits per byte (startbit/8 data/stopbit or parity). ok, I know IP overhead often works out a bit less than 80/20, but as a rule, is not far off the mark and is easy to work with, when the numbers get real big. Given the fact that Bandwidth at the server level is sold based on "bps" Bits per second. Billed monthly, based on 95% of the peek flow rate recorded usually using MRTG using either the 5 or 30 minute average. And at the website level Bandwidth is sold retail to webmasters based on total Bytes transfered per month. This is because total bytes transfered per website can be easily extracted from the logs, breaking out the bps flowrate per website on a multihomed server is not so easy. In the hosting world time is not your friend, it is but a multiplier in respects to costs. Five gallons at one gallen per hour is not the same as five gallons at one gallon per hour, either in billing or to the guy using the pump! A 5gph pump has a much higher cost associated with it than a little 1gph pump.The other thing to keep in mind is that multiple connections ADD to the current flowrate because the pipe is serial in nature. Back to time... There are 60x60x24x30 = or about 2.5m seconds in a month. The conversion from Mbps to MB does not scale well at all, well not for the retail customer that is. The first example I will use is a talk radio audio stream, at typical Talk Radio / NO Music works out to about 20kbps per stream or about 2 KBps. Over 30 days running 24/7 that one stream burns up about 5 GB of data a month. That is just one stream each streams adds to the total flow, and yes I have traced the IP addresses of a few 24/7 listeners to guard shacks and production offices that run 24/7. In a few cases to a repeater that takes a single stream through and mirrors it internally to others, which are the only truely free listeners. Ok we all know bandwidth is cheep... right! My new 3G cell phone will transfer data at close toT1 speed for $39.95 per month for unlimited data. For a short period of time when I first got the phone and did not have a data plan in effect, ATT was charged me 10 Cents per KByte transfered for about 5 days, but that is a different mutterings. So lets use 1.5mb T1 speed as both the average and max load for a month of slurping of our test server with: T1 = 1.5mbs = 150KBs * 2.5M seconds per month = 375TeraBytes per month. That works out to a load of 540MB per hour, on the average 200 GB per month hosting plan, we would be building charges in a bit over 15 days. A cable modem or fast DSL will move a little over 1GB per hour on the average connection. One of those will burn through the 200GB in about 12 days 24/7. So exactly what am I getting for my $6 per month at Powerweb? 3TB MAX transfer ! At ~$6 per month they are selling me about 7.5mbps based on a 95th% billing system or about what I can expect to pull through a 10base eithernet connection with a single server. I'm sold, so what is the catch? I gave them a call and talked a bit. It turns out that as long as you do not go over your 3,000GB limit, it is great a great deal! BUT that and wxpect to be charges are billed at $1.00 per GB, that right only One dollar per GB transfered. Wow that is lot cheeper than AT&T's 10 cents per KB! So what happens if your site makes the news or gets mentioned on a late night talk shows, or it just goes Viral on it's own. Or worse yet you piss off some Dweeb and his friends DDOS you for cutting him off from his rant. The next thing you know you have tens of thousands visitors/bots hit you all at once from evertwhere and it may not let up hours or in some cases days. Now the ethernet connection the server you are on is running at about 80mbs and the seconds are ticking,,, tick tick tick. Remember our host Jay has reported seeing 80mbs peeks in normal traffic on his server without any malus involved . At 80Mbs your overage charges work out to be about $28 per hour after you burn up your 3TB. and at 80mbs you will do that in about 4 or 5 days if it does not let up at night. Now we all know, deep in out hearts, that Collecting classic computers is going to go viral any day now. Not to mention the increase in normal usage over time. To help keep things in perspective, I work with a data center that in addition to very fat pipe to Level 3, I keeps a GigE, now thats a 1,000mbps link to TimeWarner running about 60 to 70% on AVERAGE 24/7 for local traffic. If my peek bandwidth bounces 10mbs or 20mbs it only affects my bill not theirs, they are paying a huge fixed cost for their fiber connections. The real cost these days is power, it takes an almost equal amount of power used to power the servera as it takes to cool the data center it not a bit more! Not to mention the cost of maintaining the backup generator. Hell, pumping out hundreds of gal of old fuel and replacing it every few years is not a trivial expense. Because there was no highway tax collected on the fuel, it can't be burned off in trucks, it has to be recycled. It cost about the same to truck off and dispose of the old fuel as it does to purchase the new stuff...... Free unlimited hosting is a dream, it is only through the Generosity of people like Jay that sites and lists like this continue from year to year. I chose the 80mbs number because Jay has mentions seeing 80mbs spikes on the "off the books" server that runs his hobby related sites. In addition I know from sad experiance that 80meg on a 5 minute averages is where my Windows server flattops when DDOSED by a pissed off dwebe. My life was hell untill he screwed up and got caught. He lost his job as a result of his tirade. (sidenote to Jay, is there an mrtg page for that box we could get a glimpse of ? It might help some to visualize flowrate vs overall volume ? I am sure many on this list has never seen an MRTG chart and may be interested in the flow of a 24/7 server over time in a world where it is always noon somewhere on the net...) Tonights, ASU dinner meeting is about running PHP with webaccess on the AS400 platform. I look forward to picking some brains on the subject. IBMcollectables.com should not be hosted on a Compaq Proliant server, even if it is an old almost classic, Dual Slot 1 PII-400's, SCSI RAID, 512 ECC Ram, in a rackmount case with dual supplies, there is something just wrong about it :-) Just some Food for thought ... Comments are always welcome, sometimes ignored :) Bob Bradlee The Cave Mutterer From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 15:13:32 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:13:32 -0500 Subject: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) References: <1d82d7de0703200002p3f8e1efcs795433fa7b815e9a@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703200948j1cd37917xaae370a775660458@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c001c76b2c$419538e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... > How is that called for??? And I'm not banned from this list... Actually, he does not receive list traffic and his posts to the list are held for moderation. I just happened to forget to tell the moderators not to allow his posts through so they approved the waiting ones instead of rejecting them. This miscommunication on my part has been addressed - back to our scheduled classic computing discussions. Jay From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Mar 20 15:17:10 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:17:10 -0500 Subject: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0703201007h71e89e7eq41ce39ffc0d50c1d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0703201007h71e89e7eq41ce39ffc0d50c1d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002801c76b2c$bdb8b3c0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Funny, if it was uncalled for, and it showed up here, then SOMEBODY must have called for it, right? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hex Star > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 12:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; > andrew.wbeelsoi at gmail.com; trixter at oldskool.org; > teoz at neo.rr.com; vrs at msn.com > Subject: RE: All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie) > > That was EXTREMELY inappropiate and uncalled for!!! > > I have called the admin of the list and he is removing that > post...that is so uncalled for!!! > > As for my 68kmla request, what's wrong with requesting help > with preserving a archive that the admin has made difficult > to archive? The goal of this whole vintage community is to > preserve vintage data isn't it? > From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 15:23:42 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:23:42 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <460042CE.9020809@oldskool.org> Bob Bradlee wrote: >> A few years back, I'd have agreed with you one hundred percent, but it's >> 2007, you get multi-terabit hosting plans for $6 a month, without >> bandwidth fines... > > "without bandwidth fines... " is not true! (snip) Evidently powweb has changed their policies as of 2 months ago, when they did not charge for excess bandwidth. I am sure there are other plans with better terms. This is not an endorsement, but one such page with several listed for comparison that I found last night is here: http://www.10-cheapwebhosting.com/top10hosts.php -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 15:40:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:40:20 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> <460042CE.9020809@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Most places that sell bandwidth by the GB/mo, that is also how they meter it. Once you hit the limit, you site is automatically at that moment replaced by a "Sorry, this site has used all it's bandwidth, check back next month" page. Lot of good that does. These type of arrangements are dirt cheap, long as you don't use much. When you start paying for symmetric Gbps (note lower case b) that is when you are more realistically paying for what you are using. And it ain't $6/mo. It is thousands of dollars per month. But I digress... what exactly does this have to do with classic computing? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 15:43:39 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:43:39 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... Message-ID: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> I had written.... > When you start paying for symmetric Gbps (note lower case b) that is when > you are more realistically paying for what you are using. And it ain't > $6/mo. It is thousands of dollars per month. Uggg... I apologize for my typo. For symmetric Mbps (note M, not G, and lower case b), THAT is what is thousands per month. Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 20 16:47:51 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:47:51 -0800 Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <p0624083fc22604768d33@[192.168.1.199]> At 4:04 PM -0400 3/20/07, Bob Bradlee wrote: >Tonights, ASU dinner meeting is about running PHP with webaccess on >the AS400 platform. I look forward to picking >some brains on the subject. IBMcollectables.com should not be hosted >on a Compaq Proliant server, even if it is an old >almost classic, Dual Slot 1 PII-400's, SCSI RAID, 512 ECC Ram, in a >rackmount case with dual supplies, there is >something just wrong about it :-) > >Just some Food for thought ... >Comments are always welcome, sometimes ignored :) > >Bob Bradlee >The Cave Mutterer I've been running PHP on my OpenVMS server for nearly 3 years now. It can add some interesting capabilities to platforms that wouldn't otherwise be able to perform certain services, at least not without writing new software. I'd be curious to know which version of PHP is supported on the AS400, and if you have the opportunity to run MySQL (if so what version), as it seems to be required by a lot of the more interesting PHP apps. On OpenVMS if the version requirements are met for PHP and MySQL you have a fairly good chance of getting things to work without to much effort. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 15:59:33 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:59:33 -0500 Subject: back to ccmp topics please In-Reply-To: <015b01c76b0a$9a137580$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <5dc6fd9e0703192229r7331c4aeq2573bd207c382863@mail.gmail.com><001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45FF943F.1080408@oldskool.org> <015b01c76b0a$9a137580$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46004B35.9020003@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote... >> You kicked him off the list? > Effectively, yes. His posts now require moderation (and will not be > approved at this point). He also has the admin no-mail flag set so he > doesn't get list traffic. Wow. I guess I have to watch what I say and the manner in which I say it, lest I get kicked off too... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 16:04:31 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:04:31 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> <460042CE.9020809@oldskool.org> <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Most places that sell bandwidth by the GB/mo, that is also how they > meter it. Once you hit the limit, you site is automatically at that > moment replaced by a "Sorry, this site has used all it's bandwidth, > check back next month" page. Lot of good that does. These type of > arrangements are dirt cheap, long as you don't use much. > > When you start paying for symmetric Gbps (note lower case b) that is > when you are more realistically paying for what you are using. And it > ain't $6/mo. It is thousands of dollars per month. > > But I digress... what exactly does this have to do with classic computing? It has everything to do with classic computing -- we're talking about how to ensure information is shared as freely as possible without costing anyone undue resources. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 16:06:19 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:06:19 -0500 Subject: Simtel Walnut Creek CD-ROM (speaking of ftp archives) In-Reply-To: <200703201324.l2KDOlfV016036@floodgap.com> References: <200703201324.l2KDOlfV016036@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46004CCB.6020102@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I was trying to find my Simtel Walnut Creek CD and can't (I have no idea > where it went). Does anyone have one of these that they would be willing to > copy or make an .iso image of? If a physical copy is easier to manage, I'll > gladly cover cost of shipping, media and inconvenience; either way, please > contact me off list. Hm. If you can't find anyone who can help you, guess what you'll have to do? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Mar 20 16:11:40 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:11:40 -0400 Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <p0624083fc22604768d33@[192.168.1.199]> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> <p0624083fc22604768d33@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <200703201711.40959.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 20 March 2007 17:47, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'd be curious to know which version of PHP is supported on the > AS400, and if you have the opportunity to run MySQL (if so what > version), as it seems to be required by a lot of the more interesting > PHP apps. Running MySQL on an AS/400 seems to be missing the point of running on an AS/400... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 16:12:33 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:12:33 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46004E41.9080304@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Uggg... I apologize for my typo. For symmetric Mbps (note M, not G, and > lower case b), THAT is what is thousands per month. Barely. My company has an entire rack with XO and we pay $900 a month for 10mbit average, 100mbit max/burst 5%. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 20 16:16:09 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:16:09 -0400 Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <p0624083fc22604768d33@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <200703202116.l2KLGF0T075008@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:47:51 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I've been running PHP on my OpenVMS server for nearly 3 years now. ... >I'd be curious to know which version of PHP is supported on the >AS400, and if you have the opportunity to run MySQL (if so what >version), as it seems to be required by a lot of the more interesting >PHP apps. I would be using it to support a hack of Gallery 2.x which requires Mysql, I have been told there is SQL access to the native DB on the AS400. I know of someone that has open DB connectivity between an AS400 DB with a W2k MsSQL server and share data using SQL. I plan on sitting next to him tonight,as I am giving him a ride :-) Later Bob From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Mar 20 16:20:12 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:20:12 -0500 Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <200703201711.40959.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net><p0624083fc22604768d33@[192.168.1.199]> <200703201711.40959.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <002a01c76b35$8c0a4330$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Development of SQL applications is part of 5722-ST1 (DB2 and SQL development package). SQL serving facilities are built into OS/400 as a no charge option. MySQL, therefore, is not available. PHP is available as part of websphere and I *believe* IBM HTTP server (modified Apache) - the latter also a no charge option of OS/400. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 4:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) > > On Tuesday 20 March 2007 17:47, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I'd be curious to know which version of PHP is supported on > the AS400, > > and if you have the opportunity to run MySQL (if so what > version), as > > it seems to be required by a lot of the more interesting PHP apps. > > Running MySQL on an AS/400 seems to be missing the point of > running on an AS/400... > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 20 17:27:34 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:27:34 -0800 Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <200703201711.40959.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> <p0624083fc22604768d33@[192.168.1.199]> <200703201711.40959.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <p06240840c2260f130a06@[192.168.1.199]> At 5:11 PM -0400 3/20/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Tuesday 20 March 2007 17:47, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I'd be curious to know which version of PHP is supported on the >> AS400, and if you have the opportunity to run MySQL (if so what >> version), as it seems to be required by a lot of the more interesting >> PHP apps. > >Running MySQL on an AS/400 seems to be missing the point of running on >an AS/400... Well, the same could be said about running it on VMS, especially if you already have RDB installed! However, I'm doing just that. :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 16:31:23 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:31:23 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46004E41.9080304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> I had written... >> Uggg... I apologize for my typo. For symmetric Mbps (note M, not G, and >> lower case b), THAT is what is thousands per month. To which Jim replied... > Barely. My company has an entire rack with XO and we pay $900 a month for > 10mbit average, 100mbit max/burst 5%. You are "barely" right, because you are only "barely" in the same league as the bandwidth I was referring to. When you can buy 20mbps sustained for $900, then call me would you please? When you say "10mbit average" you're comparing apples to oranges. More to the point, there is "good" bandwidth and "poor" bandwidth. In my world, XO is considered bottom of the tier as to quality bandwidth. They are cheaper than most and with very good reason. This topic is VERY rapidly moving off-topic. Jay From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 20 16:33:21 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:33:21 -0400 Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <002a01c76b35$8c0a4330$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200703202133.l2KLXQXD076074@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:20:12 -0500, Julian Wolfe wrote: >Development of SQL applications is part of 5722-ST1 (DB2 and SQL development >package). SQL serving facilities are built into OS/400 as a no charge >option. MySQL, therefore, is not available. >PHP is available as part of websphere and I *believe* IBM HTTP server >(modified Apache) - the latter also a no charge option of OS/400. Sound like it, the purest approach would be to make an AS400 version of Gallery or put linux on an IBM box and saving a lot of trouble..... But then again ..... Later Bob From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 16:34:58 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:34:58 -0500 Subject: back to ccmp topics please References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C498@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <5dc6fd9e0703192229r7331c4aeq2573bd207c382863@mail.gmail.com><001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45FF943F.1080408@oldskool.org><015b01c76b0a$9a137580$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46004B35.9020003@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <015d01c76b37$9bcfd210$6400a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... > Wow. > > I guess I have to watch what I say and the manner in which I say it, > lest I get kicked off too... It would be a good thing if everyone on the list would take your lead then. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 16:37:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:37:23 -0700 Subject: Simtel Walnut Creek CD-ROM (speaking of ftp archives) In-Reply-To: <46004CCB.6020102@oldskool.org> References: <200703201324.l2KDOlfV016036@floodgap.com>, <46004CCB.6020102@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45FFF1A3.28704.12E9FC96@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2007 at 16:06, Jim Leonard wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I was trying to find my Simtel Walnut Creek CD and can't (I have no idea > > where it went). Does anyone have one of these that they would be willing to > > copy or make an .iso image of? If a physical copy is easier to manage, I'll > > gladly cover cost of shipping, media and inconvenience; either way, please > > contact me off list. > > Hm. If you can't find anyone who can help you, guess what you'll have > to do? Copying the CD-ROM itself I understand to be verboten, as it's copyrighted as a "collection". However, since the notice makes it abundantly clear that the contents themselves can be freely distributed, why not just log ontto one of the many mirror sites and download the whole shootin' match and burn your own CD? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 16:40:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:40:00 -0700 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net>, <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING>, <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2007 at 16:04, Jim Leonard wrote: Jay West wrote: > When you start paying for symmetric Gbps (note lower case b) that is > when you are more realistically paying for what you are using. And it > ain't $6/mo. It is thousands of dollars per month. Makes me wonder if one can find a hosting service that will perform a redirection to a web site of your choice when the transfer allocation has been exhausted? A few $6/month accounts might be cheaper than a single high-bandwidth one. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 20 16:41:33 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:41:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?) In-Reply-To: <4600283D.3040006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <414098.86897.qm@web23409.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Recording TV shows to VCR to timeshift (ie, to watch at a time other > than when the show airs), I believe there's case law saying that's > acceptable, at least in the USA - that's why the TiVo and its ilk are > permitted. Now I believe that's still illegal in the UK - but it's not illegal to sell a device capable of doing it, it's just technically illegal for a user to actually use it for that purpose. *>> snip <<* cheers Jules Andrews reply: Actually Jules, afaik, it's perfectly legal to record whatever you want, since everyone does it. However, expect to get sued etc. if you are caught selling illegal copies, airing it in your own private cinema or airing it in public without the written permission of the copyright holder/s. I'm no legal genius, but thats how I think it stands. I may be wrong though... Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. If anyone is wondering why the messages I'm replying to don't have the >'s at the start of each line, it's because Y! have auto-upgraded my email to "Email Plus" which has this awful blue line down the left side in replace of the >'s when replying. There is no way to change it afaik and thus once it is sent there are no >'s to indicate what I am replying to. I refuse to use Outlook Express until I get less than 500 emails in my Inbox (roughly 1200 at mo) as I don't wish to waste harddrive space - MS does enough of that with the Windows Updates :( From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Tue Mar 20 16:45:52 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:45:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0703201644170.1318-100000@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Jay West wrote: > I had written... > >> Uggg... I apologize for my typo. For symmetric Mbps (note M, not G, and > >> lower case b), THAT is what is thousands per month. > > To which Jim replied... > > Barely. My company has an entire rack with XO and we pay $900 a month for > > 10mbit average, 100mbit max/burst 5%. > > You are "barely" right, because you are only "barely" in the same league as > the bandwidth I was referring to. When you can buy 20mbps sustained for > $900, then call me would you please? When you say "10mbit average" you're > comparing apples to oranges. > > More to the point, there is "good" bandwidth and "poor" bandwidth. In my > world, XO is considered bottom of the tier as to quality bandwidth. They are > cheaper than most and with very good reason. > > This topic is VERY rapidly moving off-topic. I apologise for adding a quick two cents, but I also have a bit of experience here (I Sys Admin one of the larger VoIP wholesalers in the US) and we use Internap for our bandwidth - which I've *never* had a complaint from, and they're $100/mbps at 95th percentile. Probably not the kind of league you're looking for, of course - but more data. JP From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 20 17:02:06 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I am just old enough to have been paid to program in FORTRAN, but I'm > really glad I didn't have to do much of it. Besides lifting > programming out of its primordial foundations, John Backus gave us the > platform from which ADVENT sprang. No disrepect to Grace Hopper > intended, but can you imagine trying to write a text adventure in > COBOL? A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language From andy at smokebelch.org Tue Mar 20 17:03:37 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:03:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Telmat P1085 (Esprit Supernode) - more bad photos of transputer kit! In-Reply-To: <m1HSiT7-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <m1HSiT7-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20070320220128.S83693@plum.flirble.org> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > I don;'t know if it'd be of any help, but I built my own trasnputer-based > hardware about 15 years ago. That's ARD-style building, with soldering > iron and 'scope, not just plugging a few TRAMs together :-). > > Anyway, I syspect a lot of this would very easily come back to me, and I > certainly still have all the databooks, and for that matter, some real > hardware, here. > > Feel free to ask me stuff if you think I might know the answers. The > worst that can happen is 'I haven't a clue!' Thanks for the offer. If/when I get round to cleaning off the rust etc I may well be in touch. I think following which I'd first need to either get a PC host up and running else chain it on to the Meiko node that has a Sun FEP, then trying booting. Andrew From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 17:07:30 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:07:30 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46004E41.9080304@oldskool.org> <014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > You are "barely" right, because you are only "barely" in the same league > as the bandwidth I was referring to. When you can buy 20mbps sustained > for $900, then call me would you please? When you say "10mbit average" > you're comparing apples to oranges. It was intentional -- most people here might want to host something themselves, not run an ISP. > More to the point, there is "good" bandwidth and "poor" bandwidth. In my > world, XO is considered bottom of the tier as to quality bandwidth. They > are cheaper than most and with very good reason. How do you determine "quality" bandwidth? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 17:08:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:08:59 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net>, <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING>, <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org> <45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46005B7B.2050001@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Makes me wonder if one can find a hosting service that will perform a > redirection to a web site of your choice when the transfer allocation > has been exhausted? A few $6/month accounts might be cheaper than a > single high-bandwidth one. Wow -- I can't believe I hadn't thought of that!! That's a fantastic idea! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 17:11:34 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:11:34 -0500 Subject: Simtel Walnut Creek CD-ROM (speaking of ftp archives) In-Reply-To: <45FFF1A3.28704.12E9FC96@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703201324.l2KDOlfV016036@floodgap.com>, <46004CCB.6020102@oldskool.org> <45FFF1A3.28704.12E9FC96@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46005C16.30500@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I was trying to find my Simtel Walnut Creek CD and can't (I have no idea >>> where it went). Does anyone have one of these that they would be willing to >>> copy or make an .iso image of? If a physical copy is easier to manage, I'll >>> gladly cover cost of shipping, media and inconvenience; either way, please >>> contact me off list. >> Hm. If you can't find anyone who can help you, guess what you'll have >> to do? > > Copying the CD-ROM itself I understand to be verboten, as it's > copyrighted as a "collection". However, since the notice makes it > abundantly clear that the contents themselves can be freely > distributed, why not just log ontto one of the many mirror sites and > download the whole shootin' match and burn your own CD? The irony is threatening to split my sides. Yes, Cameron, why don't you pick a mirror site and leech it? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Mar 20 17:16:41 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:16:41 -0400 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org> References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> <014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200703201816.41806.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 20 March 2007 18:07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > You are "barely" right, because you are only "barely" in the same > > league as the bandwidth I was referring to. When you can buy 20mbps > > sustained for $900, then call me would you please? When you say > > "10mbit average" you're comparing apples to oranges. > > It was intentional -- most people here might want to host something > themselves, not run an ISP. > > > More to the point, there is "good" bandwidth and "poor" bandwidth. > > In my world, XO is considered bottom of the tier as to quality > > bandwidth. They are cheaper than most and with very good reason. > > How do you determine "quality" bandwidth? Latency, bandwidth and outages (quantity and duration) to other providers (and internally). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 17:25:19 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:25:19 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46004E41.9080304@oldskool.org><014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <003601c76b3e$a747e680$6400a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... > It was intentional -- most people here might want to host something > themselves, not run an ISP. Nah, the discussion was for archives, and as you were saying - "Don't put it online unless you have the bandwidth and controls to do it right". So, I assumed we weren't talking about someone with a lil 10mb pipe. And putting on bandwidth controls by itself isn't good enough, because you'll run out of steam for a serious archive. So, do it right or don't do it at all. > How do you determine "quality" bandwidth? To those of us who work in that business, this is not a subjective question. It's pretty cut and dry. Latency, hops, outages, routing issues, and peering/connectivity. Jay From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Mar 20 15:56:58 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:56:58 -0400 Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) Message-ID: <0JF70056WZIMP716@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) > From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:47:51 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >At 4:04 PM -0400 3/20/07, Bob Bradlee wrote: >>Tonights, ASU dinner meeting is about running PHP with webaccess on >>the AS400 platform. I look forward to picking >>some brains on the subject. IBMcollectables.com should not be hosted >>on a Compaq Proliant server, even if it is an old >>almost classic, Dual Slot 1 PII-400's, SCSI RAID, 512 ECC Ram, in a >>rackmount case with dual supplies, there is >>something just wrong about it :-) >> >>Just some Food for thought ... >>Comments are always welcome, sometimes ignored :) >> >>Bob Bradlee >>The Cave Mutterer > >I've been running PHP on my OpenVMS server for nearly 3 years now. >It can add some interesting capabilities to platforms that wouldn't >otherwise be able to perform certain services, at least not without >writing new software. > >I'd be curious to know which version of PHP is supported on the >AS400, and if you have the opportunity to run MySQL (if so what >version), as it seems to be required by a lot of the more interesting >PHP apps. > >On OpenVMS if the version requirements are met for PHP and MySQL you >have a fairly good chance of getting things to work without to much >effort. > > Zane > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 20 18:26:12 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:26:12 -0600 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <200703201816.41806.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> <014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org> <200703201816.41806.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070320172523.06de4ae8@mail> At 04:16 PM 3/20/2007, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> How do you determine "quality" bandwidth? > >Latency, bandwidth and outages (quantity and duration) to other >providers (and internally). You forgot service. My ISP calls me within five minutes after I bump the cord on the router. :-) - John From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Tue Mar 20 15:18:40 2007 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:18:40 +0100 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? Message-ID: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008 system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches ) seem so attractive ? It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable, and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor program) that expensive ? Jos From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Mar 20 17:42:25 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:42:25 -0500 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <003101c76b41$0861c560$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Same reason we put lights on holiday decorations, or on road signs, or anything else we want to attract attention to. Using light as a way of attracting attention goes back a long long time. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos Dreesen > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:19 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Why blinkenlights ? > > I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my > coming i8008 system : what is it that makes blinkenlights > (i.e. leds and switches ) seem so attractive ? > > It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... > > > So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? > > a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly > more usable, and would have cost nothing more. Or were early > eproms (for the monitor > program) that expensive ? > > Jos > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 17:44:00 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:44:00 -0500 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <001d01c76b41$42088790$6400a8c0@BILLING> Jos wrote... >I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008 >system Well, we do expect a link to pictures & stuff! >: what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches ) seem so >attractive ? Curb appeal :) But seriously, see below.... > It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... Oh I respectfully disagree. Depending on what you are doing, a front panel can be the best way to interact. If you're writing in assembly and debugging your program it's eminently useful to see visually what is in the registers. Yes, you can do this with an online debugging tool, but I myself find it easier to just look at the lights. I mean, there is a reason they were called "PROGRAMMERS panels". > So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? Maybe because it is one of the best possible ways to interact with the computer ;) > a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable, and > would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor > program) that expensive ? I dunno. Didn't the discrete toggle or paddle switches and lights cost a lot more than a prefab keypad and LED display? And as programmer front panels faded, wasn't that about the same time people were really moving towards higher level languages and multiuser stuff rather than single machine language programs (in general)? I don't know, just conjecturing! Jay From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 17:46:13 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:46:13 -0400 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <D152ED68-79B9-4063-856E-77E66F76F6A9@neurotica.com> On Mar 20, 2007, at 4:18 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming > i8008 system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and > switches ) seem so attractive ? > > It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... Uhh...they're *easy*. > So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? Debugging. I've debugged a WHOLE LOT of code on my Imsai's front panel in the mid-1980s. Nothing is simpler (IMO) as debugging via a front panel > a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more > usable, and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for > the monitor program) that expensive ? Well, there were no such things as EPROMs (or chips at all, for that matter) on the earliest lights-and-switches machines. I think single-stepping and debugging of very low-level stuff is much easier with a lights-and-switches front panel. Numeric displays are nice, but I find many keypad interfaces to be very cumbersome. The H-8 keypad is probably one of the nicest I've seen (it seems to make the most sense anyway) but even it isn't as clear and unambiguous as "set the switches to the address you want, and press 'load address'". For today, though...blinking lights are Just Plain Cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Mar 20 17:50:18 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:50:18 -0500 Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <0JF70056WZIMP716@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JF70056WZIMP716@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <003201c76b42$22025420$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> What is this? Why is it quoted? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:57 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) > > > > >Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) > > From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> > > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:47:51 -0800 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > >At 4:04 PM -0400 3/20/07, Bob Bradlee wrote: > >>Tonights, ASU dinner meeting is about running PHP with webaccess on > >>the AS400 platform. I look forward to picking some brains on the > >>subject. IBMcollectables.com should not be hosted on a > Compaq Proliant > >>server, even if it is an old almost classic, Dual Slot 1 PII-400's, > >>SCSI RAID, 512 ECC Ram, in a rackmount case with dual > supplies, there > >>is something just wrong about it :-) > >> > >>Just some Food for thought ... > >>Comments are always welcome, sometimes ignored :) > >> > >>Bob Bradlee > >>The Cave Mutterer > > > >I've been running PHP on my OpenVMS server for nearly 3 years now. > >It can add some interesting capabilities to platforms that wouldn't > >otherwise be able to perform certain services, at least not without > >writing new software. > > > >I'd be curious to know which version of PHP is supported on > the AS400, > >and if you have the opportunity to run MySQL (if so what > version), as > >it seems to be required by a lot of the more interesting PHP apps. > > > >On OpenVMS if the version requirements are met for PHP and MySQL you > >have a fairly good chance of getting things to work without to much > >effort. > > > > Zane > > > > > >-- > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 17:54:01 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:54:01 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <200703201816.41806.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> <014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org> <200703201816.41806.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46006609.4050400@oldskool.org> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> More to the point, there is "good" bandwidth and "poor" bandwidth. >>> In my world, XO is considered bottom of the tier as to quality >>> bandwidth. They are cheaper than most and with very good reason. >> How do you determine "quality" bandwidth? > > Latency, bandwidth and outages (quantity and duration) to other > providers (and internally). Yes, but I was more wondering what Jay's evidence of that was, since we've had a grand total of one 4-hour outage in 2+ years (and that was a billing problem) and we've never had latency issues. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 17:55:31 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:55:31 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <003601c76b3e$a747e680$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46004E41.9080304@oldskool.org><014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org> <003601c76b3e$a747e680$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46006663.9000902@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote... >> It was intentional -- most people here might want to host something >> themselves, not run an ISP. > Nah, the discussion was for archives, and as you were saying - "Don't > put it online unless you have the bandwidth and controls to do it > right". So, I assumed we weren't talking about someone with a lil 10mb > pipe. And putting on bandwidth controls by itself isn't good enough, > because you'll run out of steam for a serious archive. So, do it right > or don't do it at all. My words, or yours? >> How do you determine "quality" bandwidth? > To those of us who work in that business, this is not a subjective > question. It's pretty cut and dry. Latency, hops, outages, routing > issues, and peering/connectivity. Sorry, I worded that poorly. I was more asking what your level of interaction was with XO that led you to that conclusion. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Mar 20 17:57:46 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:57:46 -0500 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <001d01c76b41$42088790$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <001d01c76b41$42088790$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <003601c76b43$2d466f00$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Jay has a point, with the lights it is easier to visually see things like a stuck bit, but the tradeoff is that things like bootstraps are just painful to enter. Did anyone ever do a machine with both? That would be really great if you could examine the bits using the keypad. IMO, lights=good, switches=bad (especially when they break on old equipment and you have to find replacements, which is a major undertaking depending on the machine) [troll]Unless you're using an HP21xx machine, in which case you just get some of those DIY switches from Radio Shack[/troll] > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:44 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Why blinkenlights ? > > Jos wrote... > >I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my > coming i8008 > >system > Well, we do expect a link to pictures & stuff! > > >: what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and > switches ) seem so > >attractive ? > Curb appeal :) But seriously, see below.... > > > It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a > computer... > Oh I respectfully disagree. Depending on what you are doing, > a front panel can be the best way to interact. If you're > writing in assembly and debugging your program it's eminently > useful to see visually what is in the registers. > Yes, you can do this with an online debugging tool, but I > myself find it easier to just look at the lights. I mean, > there is a reason they were called "PROGRAMMERS panels". > > > So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? > Maybe because it is one of the best possible ways to interact > with the computer ;) > > > a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly > more usable, > > and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the > > monitor > > program) that expensive ? > I dunno. Didn't the discrete toggle or paddle switches and > lights cost a lot more than a prefab keypad and LED display? > And as programmer front panels faded, wasn't that about the > same time people were really moving towards higher level > languages and multiuser stuff rather than single machine > language programs (in general)? I don't know, just conjecturing! > > Jay > > > From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 20 18:19:05 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:19:05 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software Message-ID: <01C76B24.C080A700@MSE_D03> In all the noise I didn't see any replies or comments re my original post (see below) so can I assume there's no one interested in actually setting up a "who's got what and where" directory somewhere, or that it's not a feasible idea? mike ----------Previous message: I've seen it mentioned, but are there actually any plans to host a master catalogue of old software somewhere where people could just list what they have available, with a search mechanism that could essentially look like bitsavers et al and let you select a brand/model/title but instead of (or in addition to) a direct FTP link return a list of web sites and/or email addresses where it could be found or requested? For example (and I doubt that I'm alone in this): I have a bunch of Cromemco software but not the time or even the inclination to copy and archive it in all its various formats, but if anyone ever wanted a copy of something in a specific format (and knew that I have it) I'd be glad to help out, and I could probably find the time to make a list if there were a place for it and an agreed-upon standard for its format and content. Same thing with documentation; I'm not about to scan all the manuals, tech bulletins, etc., but I could make a list and would be happy to scan a few crucial pages if someone needed some specific info. (Note to Al: I haven't forgotten; still working on your pile). I realize that this doesn't address the issue of actually archiving this stuff and I appreciate the efforts of Al and others to make sure that it doesn't disappear, but I suspect there is a lot of software and information out there that can't be found anywhere on the 'Web just because its owner doesn't have the time or doesn't think it's useful; in fact there's probably a fair bit of stuff that people wouldn't even know existed until they saw it listed somewhere. Granted, there'd be dead links etc. after a while (although I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to automatically verify them every now and then), but nevertheless I think it would bring a few useful items out of the woodwork... mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 20 18:37:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Jos Dreesen wrote: > I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008 > system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches ) > seem so attractive ? > It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... compared to Windoze? > So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? It gave the capability to get a look below the OS and other software. > a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable, > and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor > program) that expensive ? until recently, keyboards were not cheap. 25 years ago, the PC keyboards were about $300 It was generally assumed that anybody doing machine language (note: I did NOT say assembly language) would be comfortable and profficient in binary. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Mar 20 19:48:00 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:48:00 -0800 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <460080C0.6090301@msm.umr.edu> Jos Dreesen wrote: > I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008 > system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches ) > seem so attractive ? > > It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... > > > So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? > > a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable, > and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the > monitor program) that expensive ? > > Jos > > If I recall the displays were put thru logic (7 segment for octal, special for hexadecimal) directly from the bus. Keyboards could be interfaced and read by a monitor, but many had start and stop and step that were the same as the bat switches. Proms were optional. Proms could cost a lot. I recall paying retail prices of $20 for 2708's. The distribution prices were pretty high, so adding a prom monitor was something a low end system vendor wanted to avoid requiring. The bat switch / led panel was the simplest, since it avoided having to have a decoder on board, and used LED's, which were cheaper than early hex displays. The systems that used octal (don't know of any kits, but saw lots of home designs) could use a cheaper encoder, but hex displays were not cheap, unless your rigged your own. jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 18:49:34 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:49:34 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software References: <01C76B24.C080A700@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <012601c76b4a$6c343060$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> MH wrote... > In all the noise I didn't see any replies or comments re my > original post (see below) so can I assume there's no one > interested in actually setting up a "who's got what and where" > directory somewhere, or that it's not a feasible idea? I thought I did post a public reply, yes - I'm interested, and have been looking in to it :> Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 20 19:51:46 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:51:46 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <460081A2.3090900@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I am just old enough to have been paid to program in FORTRAN, but I'm > really glad I didn't have to do much of it. Besides lifting > programming out of its primordial foundations, John Backus gave us the > platform from which ADVENT sprang. No disrepect to Grace Hopper > intended, but can you imagine trying to write a text adventure in > COBOL? It is a 'text adventure' to write anything in COBOL. It does seem that all the early programing languages back then were ( and still is ) very hard to write compilers for. > -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 19:17:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:17:43 -0700 Subject: Simtel Walnut Creek CD-ROM (speaking of ftp archives) In-Reply-To: <46005C16.30500@oldskool.org> References: <200703201324.l2KDOlfV016036@floodgap.com>, <45FFF1A3.28704.12E9FC96@cclist.sydex.com>, <46005C16.30500@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46001737.14467.137CC5E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2007 at 17:11, Jim Leonard wrote: > The irony is threatening to split my sides. Yes, Cameron, why don't you > pick a mirror site and leech it? It's a nested leech. WC-Simtel leeched off of the software authors to create their for-sale collection. Can you imagine that tt one time, long ago, it was considered to be good etiquette to let authors know that they're stuff was being redistributed for profit? Now THAT'S FUNNY! Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 20 19:26:48 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:26:48 -0400 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200703210026.l2L0QrUN084593@keith.ezwind.net> >> More to the point, there is "good" bandwidth and "poor" bandwidth. In my >> world, XO is considered bottom of the tier as to quality bandwidth. They >> are cheaper than most and with very good reason. >How do you determine "quality" bandwidth? >-- Not XO and Not Cogent for a start! I have personal horror stories with both. I agree they are tied for the lead, in the race to the bottom of this industry. Bob From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Mar 20 19:27:53 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:27:53 -0400 Subject: single transistor projects? Message-ID: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> [possibly off topic, but what isn't these days? :-)] When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like "single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of simple circuits featuring a single transistor. (or who knows, maybe it was 101 transistor project; I think I was in 4th grade at the time - late '60s) anyway, one was a single transistor FM radio. I just remember it had a single FET, a coil, a cap, some discreets. I think it told how to wind the coil "in the air". Does anyone remember such a book? I figure if anyone one would, it would be someone here... seems like a fun thing to build now days with my son. -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 19:28:00 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:28:00 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> <014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org><200703201816.41806.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46006609.4050400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <014d01c76b4f$c8d30710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > Yes, but I was more wondering what Jay's evidence of that was, since we've > had a grand total of one 4-hour outage in 2+ years (and that was a billing > problem) and we've never had latency issues. In probability & statistics, a sample size of 1 is generally considered insufficient. But since it's you.... You're probably right though, I don't know what I was thinking. I appreciate your tip on XO and will revisit them next customer order as they have obviously improved. Thanks! Jay From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 20 19:40:17 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simtel Walnut Creek CD-ROM (speaking of ftp archives) In-Reply-To: <46001737.14467.137CC5E6@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Mar 20, 7 05:17:43 pm" Message-ID: <200703210040.l2L0eHpL016582@floodgap.com> > > The irony is threatening to split my sides. Yes, Cameron, why don't you > > pick a mirror site and leech it? > > It's a nested leech. WC-Simtel leeched off of the software authors > to create their for-sale collection. FWIW, I think the issue is taken care of and I appreciate the off-list response received. Note to Jim, since I have his mail filtered at present, "leeching" was not required. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mistakes are often the stepping stones to catastrophic failure. ------------ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 20 20:57:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:57:09 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <45FFC030.17011.1228D60E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> <45FFC030.17011.1228D60E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <460090F5.40209@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > In regard to copyright, it's generally a safe bet that copyright is > good for a minimum of 70 years after publication--and probably longer > if you're talking about a WTO country. This is long enough that ANY > computer literature or programs that have been published are under > copyright protection. Being out of print or distrubution is not a > legal excuse for violating copyright--not for some old article from > Byte magazine, or an old Karl King march or a computer program. But the problem is *Freedom* here and you don't have that since the land of the USA is the land of 'Lawyers'. If you wait 70 years the lawyers will have changed that to 150 years. If you want a good example look at DISNEY and them extending the copywrite on a MOUSE. Abandonware is not really abandon-ware but a grey area on marketing old games and questionable programs. Note I found out that you can buy what some call abandonware legaly as it is still being sold as product. Some other programs I have pirated simply because they are not being sold and I wanted to run that program. > It is always the most prudent action to ASK if something may be > posted. It's important when asking to observe that you are not > asking the copyright owner to put things in the public domain, but > simply to agree to an alternate distribution method. His (or any > appropriate pronoun here) rights still are in force and infringement > may still be prosecuted. Offering to add an explicit copyright > notice to the posted material might improve the odds of success., > > And if the copyright holder refuses, it's prudent to respect that > wish--period. You didn't create the material, you don't own it and > attaching a label such as "abandonware" doesn't put you on any higher > legal ground. Well when I think 'abandonware' that is PC stuff and that is mostly off topic anyhow.I can think of a very rare DOS game that I want -- email me if you have the only floppy of this game in Canada or the USA. To me a more useful item is a real grey area problem, PDF's and software on bitsavers. I would like to use my PDP-8 clone but I have no idea what to documentation to download. While I would come under a 'hobbiest' licence just who do you ask for advice here? > I'm assuming that before Al puts something up on bitsavers, he makes > some sort of effort to get an okay from the copyright holder before > posting. At least I hope he does. > Cheers, > Chuck PS. I don't use kermit since the NEW stuff has 30 day demo if you use windows, and that I am forced to use. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 20 20:02:30 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:02:30 -0400 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070320172523.06de4ae8@mail> Message-ID: <200703210102.l2L12Z7h086331@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:26:12 -0600, John Foust wrote: >You forgot service. My ISP calls me within five minutes after >I bump the cord on the router. :-) >- John When I moved and pulled the plug on several T1 lines I had with XO, service called me 2 weeks later wanting to know if SBC had contacted me about the presumed local loop problem they had an open ticket on. I told them I had pulled the plug and moved and I asked why it took 2 weeks to call, they said they figured if it was a real problem, I would have called them and if it was a local loop problem,there was no reason to kick a sleeping dog. It took XO's billing close to a year to stop billing me and it took their legal department to get my account zeroed and closed, close to a year after that. I always figured they hired the rejects from Worldcom..... .... well you get the idea. Closer to being on topic... I just returned from the ASU meeting and saw a nice demo of Zend PHP running on an AS400 using Apache and DB2. The presenter indicated that he thought there is a Mysql port for the AS400 but he had worked with it. He was using the native DB2 interface for his project. Bob Bradlee From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Mar 20 20:12:40 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:12:40 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration Message-ID: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> I'm starting to collect some qbus equipment again and am trying to setup a system around a KDJ11-AA CPU. My current configuration is: BA23 enclosure KDJ11-AA (m8192) MSV11-QC (m7551 cf) DZQ11-M (m3106) RQDX3 (m7555) TQK50-AA (m7546) First, will it be possible to boot this configuration? Can I setup to start the KDJ11 in ODT mode and enter a bootstrap for the RQDX3 by hand? How long a program would I have to enter? Also, I've done a Google search but have been unable to find documentation on how to configure the DZQ11 module. I'd like to configure it so that I can use one of its ports as the console port for ODT. Is that possible? I'm planning on using a Maxtor XT-2190 190mb hard drive. If that won't work, I have a number of RD53 drives I can use instead. Is this a workable configuration or do I need a boot module like the MXV11? Thanks, David From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 20 21:26:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:26:54 -0700 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <460097EE.3010708@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen wrote: > So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? I had Z80 kit around 1983 with keyboard and 7 segment display. > a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable, > and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor > program) that expensive ? What monitor program? I think the Altair 8080 came with a 256 byte ram as main memory. I never did see the original magazines with the but you now can find some good history about micros on the web to give you a better idea of why they came with them the blinking lights. http://www.bytecollector.com/mark_8.htm > Jos From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 20 21:31:12 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:31:12 -0700 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> <460042CE.9020809@oldskool.org> <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <460098F0.6090606@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > But I digress... what exactly does this have to do with classic computing? Well for me I want to know just what I can download off a bitsavers mirror. At a typical 10 to 70 meg PDF it does add up on both sides. I would like bitsavers to stick around for a few more years at least, rather than 'slurped' dry. > Jay > > . > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 20:33:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:33:16 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <460090F5.40209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> <45FFC030.17011.1228D60E@cclist.sydex.com> <460090F5.40209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6B756083-981E-4544-BB90-653F1F33CBFE@neurotica.com> On Mar 20, 2007, at 9:57 PM, woodelf wrote: > PS. I don't use kermit since the NEW stuff has 30 day demo if you use > windows, and that I am forced to use. Whoa...WHO is forcing you to use Windows? I will beat them up for you! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 20:41:16 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:41:16 -0700 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703201841g5bb17fd2j1b0c0131b18ac55@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > Also, I've done a Google search but have been unable to find > documentation on how to configure the DZQ11 module. I'd like to > configure it so that I can use one of its ports as the console port > for ODT. Is that possible? > Search http://vt100.net/manx/ for EK-DZQ11-UG-001 As far as I can tell (I'm no expert) you can't configure any of the DZQ11 ports as a standard console port. -Glen From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 20 21:43:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:43:11 -0700 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net>, <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING>, <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org> <45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46009BBF.2040502@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Makes me wonder if one can find a hosting service that will perform a > redirection to a web site of your choice when the transfer allocation > has been exhausted? A few $6/month accounts might be cheaper than a > single high-bandwidth one. Well I think a DVD rom of bitsavers is your best buy for your $$$. When I was pirating software, that idea was used a lot by the pirates. As far as remember you where luck to get any sized downloads as the sevice was so poor or the limit for the day was exausted. I don't think any file was larger than about 4 meg and it took forever to download. > Cheers, > Chuck > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 20 21:46:12 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:46:12 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46009C74.3030200@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language > Ok, lets see you do it in INTERCAL. :) From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 20:52:35 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:52:35 -0700 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703201852q1361bfdct5df17355fbe4eef2@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > I'm starting to collect some qbus equipment again and am trying to > setup a system around a KDJ11-AA CPU. > > My current configuration is: > > BA23 enclosure > KDJ11-AA (m8192) > MSV11-QC (m7551 cf) > DZQ11-M (m3106) > RQDX3 (m7555) > TQK50-AA (m7546) > > First, will it be possible to boot this configuration? Can I setup to > start the KDJ11 in ODT mode and enter a bootstrap for the RQDX3 by > hand? How long a program would I have to enter? > You could enter this MSCP bootstrap by hand with a dumb terminal in ODT, but you would probably want to use a terminal program to send it rather than typing it. http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/mscp_rt11.txt I haven't actually tried that MSCP bootstrap, but I did enter the TMSCP bootstrap I found there via a terminal program in ODT mode on a KDJ11-A and it worked fine to boot from a tape. -Glen From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 20:55:24 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:55:24 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> <460042CE.9020809@oldskool.org><00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <460098F0.6090606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01a501c76b5b$fe2f57e0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> woodelf wrote... > Well for me I want to know just what I can download off a bitsavers > mirror. Overall that's up to Al, but each mirror may have some preferences as well. My own advice is download any manuals you need when you need them. You do not need to download entire copies of bitsavers just to preserve the files for posterity. There are currently 9 mirrors and they are around the globe. > At a typical 10 to 70 meg PDF it does add up on both sides. I would like > bitsavers > to stick around for a few more years at least, rather than 'slurped' dry. I think it's safe to say bitsavers will be around. Al and 9 mirrors make that likely :) Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 20 20:57:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <6B756083-981E-4544-BB90-653F1F33CBFE@neurotica.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> <45FFC030.17011.1228D60E@cclist.sydex.com> <460090F5.40209@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B756083-981E-4544-BB90-653F1F33CBFE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070320184902.Y10228@shell.lmi.net> > > PS. I don't use kermit since the NEW stuff has 30 day demo if you use > > windows, and that I am forced to use. On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > Whoa...WHO is forcing you to use Windows? I will beat them up for > you! Got time and energy to deal with a few dozen additional college administrators? From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 20 21:05:11 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:05:11 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <014d01c76b4f$c8d30710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ff01c76b30$72370880$6400a8c0@BILLING> <014101c76b37$1d37adb0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46005B22.3020505@oldskool.org><200703201816.41806.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46006609.4050400@oldskool.org> <014d01c76b4f$c8d30710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <460092D7.4070506@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote.... >> Yes, but I was more wondering what Jay's evidence of that was, since >> we've had a grand total of one 4-hour outage in 2+ years (and that was >> a billing problem) and we've never had latency issues. > > In probability & statistics, a sample size of 1 is generally considered > insufficient. But since it's you.... > > You're probably right though, I don't know what I was thinking. I > appreciate your tip on XO and will revisit them next customer order as > they have obviously improved. Thanks! It is a shame you don't qualify for banning yourself off of the list. I supposed it never occurred to you that I was asking for a concrete example because our contract is up and we might be looking for a different provider. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 21:07:54 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:07:54 -0500 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net>, <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING>, <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org><45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> <46009BBF.2040502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01ac01c76b5d$bd573c90$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> woodelf wrote... > Well I think a DVD rom of bitsavers is your best buy for your $$$. I'm guessing "a DVD rom" of bitsavers runs around 15 or so DVD's right now. Plus, I've made no secret of the fact that if someone wants a large section of bitsavers, just email me and I'll go burn a DVD from the central repository rather than have someone attempt to suck up 80mpbs. No matter what anyone else may think, I do not get happy when that happens if it is easily avoidable :) Yes, I have the bandwidth, I just find it wasteful. And since it is my bandwidth, I do get to say how I feel about it ;) Lastly.... a new service we're prototyping for my ISP involves DVD "burning on demand" of archival files. We'll have a rather huge amount of disk space hooked up to a multidrive tower of DVD burners. Through a web interface, people will be able to select files they want and they will automatically be "burned to order" and mailed to them. This is completely unrelated to Bitsavers, but I see absolutely no reason that the contents of bitsavers couldn't be made available to the san/burners for some folks. Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 20 22:08:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:08:13 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin/Archiving system software In-Reply-To: <6B756083-981E-4544-BB90-653F1F33CBFE@neurotica.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> <45FFC030.17011.1228D60E@cclist.sydex.com> <460090F5.40209@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B756083-981E-4544-BB90-653F1F33CBFE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4600A19D.70801@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 20, 2007, at 9:57 PM, woodelf wrote: > Whoa...WHO is forcing you to use Windows? I will beat them up for you! Kill Mr BILL-- please. I use windows mostly for surfing the net and playing a odd game or two. Alas since I don't have real computer, but just what marketing called a computer two years ago and it time for a new computer. I have a second partion on the HD for a different OS but right now I have not installed anything on it. Only in the last few years have learned about better CPU's than intel & clones but nobody sells them as all the major computers I belive are using the 586+. I would like to use a real unix box but I need a good printer, and hardware and modern software to print pdf files for example. > -Dave A PDP-10 like clone would be nice -- real hardware, not a emulation. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 20 22:21:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:21:09 -0700 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> Brad Parker wrote: > Does anyone remember such a book? > I figure if anyone one would, it would be someone here... > seems like a fun thing to build now days with my son. > -brad Well if you like tubes go here. http://www.schmarder.com/radios/index.htm They tend to be more impressive looking than a transistor. A google search could find you a schematic quicker than you can find a book or magazine since I don't think anything is newer than between 1975-1985 for transistor projects. Anything later they refuse to publish designs you can build from just the information they give you. From ken at seefried.com Tue Mar 20 21:22:13 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:22:13 -0400 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <200703210034.l2L0Xf9Z016811@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703210034.l2L0Xf9Z016811@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070321022213.13362.qmail@seefried.com> From: Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> > > How do you determine "quality" bandwidth? > If you fail to understand that concept, I know exactly how much credence to give the rest of your technical pronouncements. What is far more telling is that I have few doubts that you know exactly what is meant. From doug at stillhq.com Tue Mar 20 21:29:38 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:29:38 +1100 Subject: Nicolet NICE Z80 Emulator In-Reply-To: <200703210034.l2L0Xf9d016811@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703210034.l2L0Xf9d016811@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46009892.1050607@stillhq.com> Hi, I have just found a Nicolet NICE Z80 in-circuit emulator. (I used to use one of there years ago in a previous job) Does anybody have a copy of the users manual for the unit, or a rundown on the available commands? Doug From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 21:32:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:32:14 -0400 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <39FC2B5B-B0C0-44E2-82E7-279884E13785@neurotica.com> On Mar 20, 2007, at 11:21 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Does anyone remember such a book? >> I figure if anyone one would, it would be someone here... >> seems like a fun thing to build now days with my son. >> -brad > > Well if you like tubes go here. > http://www.schmarder.com/radios/index.htm > They tend to be more impressive looking than a transistor. > > A google search could find you a schematic quicker > than you can find a book or magazine since I don't think > anything is newer than between 1975-1985 for transistor > projects. Anything later they refuse to publish > designs you can build from just the information they give > you. I had a set of "Transistor Projects" volumes 1 through (I think) 6, from Radio Shack, when I was growing up. They were written by Forrest Mims, who was my idol before I started reading Steve Ciarcia's column in BYTE. :) Anyway, those beloved books were lost at some point, but over the last year or so I've been able to acquire copies of them (and others from the same series) via eBay for a few dollars apiece. I've had great fun flipping through them, giggling to myself thinking "hey, I built that when I was eight years old!" These books are very simplistic, but the projects do provide good hands-on experience and are fun. They are cheap, and they turn up on eBay with some frequency. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 20 22:04:17 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:04:17 -0500 Subject: emergency moderation mode on References: <200703210034.l2L0Xf9Z016811@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070321022213.13362.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <01e701c76b65$9da9d350$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, emergency moderation of all list traffic is now on. No posts will be gated onto the list until I manually read and approve each posting individually. Yes, this means that posts will appear slowly because someone has to sit down and read each post to see if the poster is acting like an adult, and to ensure that each post is on topic, non-inflamatory, and non-argumentative, and not an attack on someone else. Once I feel that people can post without being so confrontative, and will drop a topic when I say it's gone too far, then I'll put the list back into normal mode. Do NOT email me asking why a certain post wasn't allowed on the list during this time. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 22:05:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:05:10 -0500 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703202005g7ac0dd3ek9e5c76ca01c6119@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > I'm starting to collect some qbus equipment again and am trying to > setup a system around a KDJ11-AA CPU. > > My current configuration is: > > BA23 enclosure > KDJ11-AA (m8192) > MSV11-QC (m7551 cf) > DZQ11-M (m3106) > RQDX3 (m7555) > TQK50-AA (m7546) A nice, basic setup - CPU, memory, serial, disk, and tape. > First, will it be possible to boot this configuration? Can I setup to > start the KDJ11 in ODT mode and enter a bootstrap for the RQDX3 by > hand? How long a program would I have to enter? The MSCP boot is dozens of bytes, but it can be entered by hand (or from a computer over the console port)... > Also, I've done a Google search but have been unable to find > documentation on how to configure the DZQ11 module. I think someone else pointed out the manual on bitsavers, but I don't ever remember having to configure one - we never needed a second one in any MicroVAX or MicroPDP I ever worked with - we just had DZQs lying around set to the defaults. > I'd like to configure it so that I can use one of its ports as the console port > for ODT. Is that possible? I do not believe that's possible. Back in the day, the DLV11J was commonly used for console plus 3 serial ports for printers and what not. I tended to see the DZQ11 on systems that had a console port (MicroVAXen or MicroPDPs w/serial on the CPU) and for interactive terminals plus maybe a serial printer. The default strapping for a DLV11J was to have one of the SLUs at the expected console CSR and vector, but some flavor of DLV11 (DLV11E?) could provide a console serial port on a dual-height card (but only one port on that card). > I'm planning on using a Maxtor XT-2190 190mb hard drive. If that > won't work, I have a number of RD53 drives I can use instead. That should work fine with the RQDX3, as long as the drives were previously formatted on an RQDX3 or if you can boot XXDP's low-level formatter. I've never done it from a PDP-11, so I don't recall the XXDP module name (I've always done it from either a MicroVAX 2000 or from a MicroVAX II w/Field Service Diagnostics). If your drives are ready to go with an RQDX3, you can plug them in, boot from floppy or tape, and load an OS. > Is this a workable configuration or do I need a boot module like the > MXV11? I never had one but IIRC, the MXV11 can give you both a bootstrap and a console. You could also install a dedicated console serial board as described above, and type in/download a bootstrap. Off the top my head, all the later PDP-11 CPU boards had a built-in console and second serial line, but the KDF11-A and KDJ11-A did not. Those tended to use either an MXV11 or a DLV11J + BDV11 boot/terminator. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 20 23:02:26 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:02:26 -0800 Subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?) In-Reply-To: <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> At 4:37 PM -0700 3/20/07, Fred Cisin wrote: >until recently, keyboards were not cheap. 25 years ago, the PC keyboards >were about $300 Are *GOOD* keyboards cheap? The keyboard I'm typing this on cost me $160, and the ADB-to-USB converter it's plugged into was probably another $20. For that matter what modern keyboards are worth owning? At work I use an antique IBM keyboard that was originally on an RS6k 340, and here at home I use a combination of my 16 year old "cheap" AT clone keyboard, an SGI keyboard, various DEC keyboards, an HP Itanium 2 Workstation keyboard (on my Sunblade 1000 no less), and the keyboard that came with my PowerMac G5 2x2 is on my work laptop (an IBM ThinkPad). Personally I toss any modern cheap PC keyboards I get. If it wasn't for the fact I don't have a better keyboard the HP one would be tossed, the Apple USB keyboard at least is not to bad, I just don't like the design. If I pick up a keyboard with the short ends in each hand, and it flexes when I gently twist, it is considered trash, and treated accordingly. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 20 23:05:44 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:05:44 -0700 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <39FC2B5B-B0C0-44E2-82E7-279884E13785@neurotica.com> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> <39FC2B5B-B0C0-44E2-82E7-279884E13785@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4600AF18.6010909@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > I had a set of "Transistor Projects" volumes 1 through (I think) 6, > from Radio Shack, when I was growing up. They were written by Forrest > Mims, who was my idol before I started reading Steve Ciarcia's column > in BYTE. :) I loved Ciarcia until his projects got too big for the average person to construct like his PC for example. > Anyway, those beloved books were lost at some point, but over the > last year or so I've been able to acquire copies of them (and others > from the same series) via eBay for a few dollars apiece. I've had > great fun flipping through them, giggling to myself thinking "hey, I > built that when I was eight years old!" For a father and son project, the link to the old radios seem a better project than a FET FM receiver. > These books are very simplistic, but the projects do provide good > hands-on experience and are fun. They are cheap, and they turn up on > eBay with some frequency. I gave up on e-pay -- too much LOOK RARE -- items that are not rare. > -Dave I still want to build a octal computer ( I have two now, a PC and a PDP-8 clone) but the PCB layout is holding me back as well as getting the proms burned. A 2901 BIT SLICE design is planned just as yet I am not sure just how fast the design will be since I am going thinking of 12 bit alu card and the machine is 24 bits. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 20 23:15:31 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:15:31 -0800 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703201852q1361bfdct5df17355fbe4eef2@mail.gmail.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703201852q1361bfdct5df17355fbe4eef2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <p06240842c2265f0bc863@[192.168.1.199]> At 6:52 PM -0700 3/20/07, Glen Slick wrote: >On 3/20/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: >>I'm starting to collect some qbus equipment again and am trying to >>setup a system around a KDJ11-AA CPU. >> >>My current configuration is: >> >>BA23 enclosure >>KDJ11-AA (m8192) >>MSV11-QC (m7551 cf) >>DZQ11-M (m3106) >>RQDX3 (m7555) >>TQK50-AA (m7546) >> >>First, will it be possible to boot this configuration? Can I setup to >>start the KDJ11 in ODT mode and enter a bootstrap for the RQDX3 by >>hand? How long a program would I have to enter? >> > >You could enter this MSCP bootstrap by hand with a dumb terminal in >ODT, but you would probably want to use a terminal program to send it >rather than typing it. > >http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/mscp_rt11.txt > >I haven't actually tried that MSCP bootstrap, but I did enter the >TMSCP bootstrap I found there via a terminal program in ODT mode on a >KDJ11-A and it worked fine to boot from a tape. > >-Glen When I was getting my first PDP-11 put together, before I even had a VT of any sort, I'd use TELEX.EXE running on my old PC to download the bootstrap. With the hardware you have here though, I think you need a DLV11-J 4-SLU board, the first serial port on the DLV11-J is your console port. You might want to keep your eye out for a 3rd party disk controller with the bootstrap built in. I used a WQESD/04 for several years before getting a quad-height /73 board. At one point the WQESD was in my /73 along with an RQDX3 (for RX50), and a Viking QDT, all it did was boot the SCSI drive on the Viking board. That was an "interesting" configuration. I believe the recommended solution is to use a MXV11-B, but then I've never owned one. That would give you 2 SLU's, a little RAM, and boot ROMs. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 22:15:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:15:19 -0500 Subject: Simtel Walnut Creek CD-ROM (speaking of ftp archives) In-Reply-To: <46001737.14467.137CC5E6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703201324.l2KDOlfV016036@floodgap.com> <45FFF1A3.28704.12E9FC96@cclist.sydex.com> <46005C16.30500@oldskool.org> <46001737.14467.137CC5E6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703202015x28dd10fagc996f87586f0e971@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > Can you imagine that tt one time, long ago, it was considered to be > good etiquette to let authors know that they're stuff was being > redistributed for profit? I received more than one free CD-ROM from one of those vendors long ago (Walnut Creek?), because their policy was to give authors free copies of the collection upon request. This was back before any mortals could afford CD burners (they existed, but were $5K and up), so it was a nice perk. I have always written my stuff to give away to the widest audience (via Fred Fish in the Amiga world, or patches via Usenet comp.* groups, etc.) I never got bent out of shape because someone with a larger disk than I could afford and access to pressed-CD mastering equipment siphoned off an archive I contributed to and sold the results for a profit - a) it got the software into more hands, and b) it got a lot of interesting software into _my_ hands without trying to slurp it down a 2400 bps pipe onto a 40MB disk. We didn't always get informed personally that our stuff ended up on an archive, but if someone went and siphoned off Simtel or one of the Amiga repositories, it was announced in the title of the disk and one could go look. I never felt the need to go the shareware route, etc., so I never felt like I was getting "ripped off". Some other people must have felt differently. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 22:21:11 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:21:11 -0400 Subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?) In-Reply-To: <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> On Mar 21, 2007, at 12:02 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> until recently, keyboards were not cheap. 25 years ago, the PC >> keyboards >> were about $300 > > Are *GOOD* keyboards cheap? The keyboard I'm typing this on cost > me $160, and the ADB-to-USB converter it's plugged into was > probably another $20. > > For that matter what modern keyboards are worth owning? At work I > use an antique IBM keyboard that was originally on an RS6k 340, and > here at home I use a combination of my 16 year old "cheap" AT clone > keyboard, an SGI keyboard, various DEC keyboards, an HP Itanium 2 > Workstation keyboard (on my Sunblade 1000 no less), and the > keyboard that came with my PowerMac G5 2x2 is on my work laptop (an > IBM ThinkPad). Personally I toss any modern cheap PC keyboards I > get. If it wasn't for the fact I don't have a better keyboard the > HP one would be tossed, the Apple USB keyboard at least is not to > bad, I just don't like the design. > > If I pick up a keyboard with the short ends in each hand, and it > flexes when I gently twist, it is considered trash, and treated > accordingly. Same here. The only "good" PS/2-interfaced keyboards I have here are a big box of SGI "granite" units, and even they have some flex (not much) to them. At least they have some heft, though. However, one other keyboard does stand out. A few months ago, I picked up an Enermax Aurora keyboard, which has an aluminum chassis and the "X"-mechanism keys that are similar to those of higher-end laptops like Powerbooks. I love the keyboard on my Powerbook-G4; I can *fly* when I'm typing on that...so I wanted to see if I could find a similar keyboard for my desktop machine. This Enermax is definitely that; they key mechanism is very similar to that used on the Powerbook. My typing speed is much better with this keyboard. And the case is made of *METAL*. Very nice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Mar 20 22:29:02 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:29:02 -0400 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? Message-ID: <0JF800EGCHNYISJ2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Why blinkenlights ? > From: Jos Dreesen <jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch> > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:18:40 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008 >system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches ) >seem so attractive ? > >It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... > > >So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? > >a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable, >and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor >program) that expensive ? > > Jos For it's era it was low cost (compared to 1702 Eproms) and it provided the ability to debug the hardware. Also t was flexible as it was both IO and allowed program entry and crude debug (single step). Early systems also lacked software to interact with and often what was available had the have the IO altered for to match the available IO. This was very true for the 8008 generation and remained true for the early 8080 generation. Later systems such as the H8 were better but also really represented a new subspecies of systems leading to the turnkey based systems. Personally I felt it was the first 6800 (and 6502) based systems that made switches and lights outmoded by using a standard console IO and a rom based monitor program to do the functions that a hardware front pannel provides. By then ROMs/Eproms had dropped in price and the hardware saved was enough made it far less expensive. Allison From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 22:27:37 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:27:37 -0700 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703202005g7ac0dd3ek9e5c76ca01c6119@mail.gmail.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <f4eb766f0703202005g7ac0dd3ek9e5c76ca01c6119@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703202027g7bd19c5cgf53c91f14b4c371a@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/07, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > On 3/20/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > > I'm planning on using a Maxtor XT-2190 190mb hard drive. If that > > won't work, I have a number of RD53 drives I can use instead. > > That should work fine with the RQDX3, as long as the drives were > previously formatted on an RQDX3 or if you can boot XXDP's low-level > formatter. I've never done it from a PDP-11, so I don't recall the > XXDP module name (I've always done it from either a MicroVAX 2000 or > from a MicroVAX II w/Field Service Diagnostics). > I've recently gone through several of these exercises for the first time. If you can get a 5.25" floppy hooked up to the RQDX3 that can make things much easier. The 11/73 I acquired already had an RX33 so I didn't need to figure out how to configure a 5.25" to be RX33 compatible. I used E11 on a PC to boot XXDP from the RL02 disk image and created a bootable RX33 disk image with the ZRQCH0 binary. Then I booted the 11/73 from the RX33 disk and ran ZRQCH0 to format an RD52. My 11/73 is a KDJ11-B so it has the onboard DU boot ROM and console port. There is an XXDP doc here which refers to a previous release of ZRQCHF0 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf There are references on the web to running XXDP binaries through VTServer. I have never tried that myself. -Glen From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 22:45:41 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:45:41 -0700 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <p06240842c2265f0bc863@192.168.1.199> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703201852q1361bfdct5df17355fbe4eef2@mail.gmail.com> <p06240842c2265f0bc863@192.168.1.199> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703202045q5da6e8a0x79a0b8dfafe103b6@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > You might want to keep your eye out for a 3rd > party disk controller with the bootstrap built in. That's a good point. I have more than one Emulex QD21, a Dilog DQ696, and a Sigma RDQ11, which are all Q-bus ESDI controllers and they all have firmware with boot and built-in formatting support. They were much cheaper on eBay than Q-bus SCSI controllers, although SCSI drives are basically free and you'll pay something for an ESDI drive, but not as much as for a large working MFM drive. Another plus of a SCSI controller is that you might be able to use it to boot a SCSI CD-ROM. I have that working with a Dilog SQ706A SCSI controller and a Plextor SCSI CD-ROM in my 11/73. But if you do have a working RQDX3 and working RD drives it's probably still cheaper to get a board you can put a boot ROM on. That's an exercise I haven't gone through myself, yet. -Glen From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 20 23:30:13 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:30:13 -0800 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <p06240843c2266368ce6b@[192.168.1.199]> At 8:21 PM -0700 3/20/07, woodelf wrote: >Well if you like tubes go here. >http://www.schmarder.com/radios/index.htm >They tend to be more impressive looking than a transistor. Wow! Great link! I'm going to have to spend some time at that site. Thanks a lot for posting it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 22:29:29 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:29:29 -0400 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <4600AF18.6010909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> <39FC2B5B-B0C0-44E2-82E7-279884E13785@neurotica.com> <4600AF18.6010909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <71AB74EA-E92C-4536-97D2-16BC75D16172@neurotica.com> On Mar 21, 2007, at 12:05 AM, woodelf wrote: >> I had a set of "Transistor Projects" volumes 1 through (I >> think) 6, from Radio Shack, when I was growing up. They were >> written by Forrest Mims, who was my idol before I started reading >> Steve Ciarcia's column in BYTE. :) > > I loved Ciarcia until his projects got too big for the average > person to construct like his PC for example. Yes he did do a bit of that toward the end of his run at BYTE, admittedly. His magazine just passed its 200th issue, though, and has more than made up for that little problem. :) >> Anyway, those beloved books were lost at some point, but over >> the last year or so I've been able to acquire copies of them (and >> others from the same series) via eBay for a few dollars apiece. >> I've had great fun flipping through them, giggling to myself >> thinking "hey, I built that when I was eight years old!" > > For a father and son project, the link to the old radios seem a > better project than a FET FM receiver. Possibly. Radio stuff is always fun, and Mims didn't do much with radio in his books. But there's plenty of other fun stuff in there. >> These books are very simplistic, but the projects do provide >> good hands-on experience and are fun. They are cheap, and they >> turn up on eBay with some frequency. > > I gave up on e-pay -- too much LOOK RARE -- items that are not rare. Sure, there's a ton of that. I've gotten to the point where I can ignore most of it, and I make out like an absolute bandit on eBay. Ignoring the rampant drooling stupidity is difficult at times, but I can also say that about overall "life" in Amerika, Incorporated, so I suppose I'm just used to it. But the next time someone tries to sell a Z80 CPU (which is a current product) as "OLD RARE CAN'T FIND 'EM ANYMORE" I swear I'll fly out to wherever the seller is and smack them upside the head. > I still want to build a octal computer ( I have two now, a PC and a > PDP-8 clone) PC...Octal?? How is a PC an octal machine? > but the PCB layout is holding me back as well as getting the proms > burned. I can take care of the PROMs for you. I could do the PCB layout as well, but I shouldn't offer that at this point, as much of my time is being sucked up by a new job and a new house. But consider the PROMs a firm "anytime" offer. > A 2901 BIT SLICE design is planned just as yet I am not sure just > how fast > the design will be since I am going thinking of 12 bit alu card and > the machine > is 24 bits. Mmmm, 2901s. I do love those. I want to do something with those too...I have since the mid-1980s...but I've never gotten around to it. I did get a chance to work with the 2910 in a research supercomputer project in the 1980s, but no 2901s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 20 22:43:03 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:43:03 -0400 Subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?) References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <016f01c76b6b$07f68e60$0b01a8c0@game> The keyboard I am using here is a Northgate Omnikey/102 purchased new around 1991 for $75 mailorder from California, still works and has not needed a key replaced so it was worth the money. I like the Omnikey Ultra T I use on my Amiga 2000, it was $10 or so plus shipping and I picked it up here from a list member (thank you again). Its nice to be able to flip a jumper and use the same keyboard on a Tandy, Amiga, XT, AT, etc (ok with a few keys moved around in the case of the Amiga). For my old Macs I use the Apple ADB extended keyboards or a Appledesign keyboard if I have to. Since I use a few KVMs I tend to get away with only a needing a few good keyboards. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 20 22:09:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:09:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR33 selector magnet driver card In-Reply-To: <45FF5FE3.AE97046E@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 19, 7 09:15:39 pm Message-ID: <m1HTrCf-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > djg at pdp8.net wrote: > > > > If you are referring to CR1 and CR2 on the plug in card 181821/181823 > > they both seem to be 1N4383. One I could read the entire part # and the > > other all except the last digit. > > ... and the replacement for 1N4383 is 1N4003, going by Moto Semi Data > Book/1969. :) > (Vf is a little lower: 1N4383=1.3V at 1A, 1N4003=1.6V at 1A, not likely to matter in > the appl.) .... And almost always you can replace a 1N400x with a 1N400y if y>=x. The last digit encodes the PIV of the diode, the lower the digit, the lower the maximum voltage. I assume that lower PIV versions are a fraction of a penny cheaper, which matters if you're doing a production run, but not if you're a hobbyist or doing a repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 20 22:21:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:21:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 works, but.... In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848831D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Mar 20, 7 08:08:20 am Message-ID: <m1HTrNz-000J12C@p850ug1> > > > > I checked tonight, and powering them both up (RL02 & RX02) > > before the cpu makes no difference. If the RX02 is powered on > > when the load button is hit on the RL02, the RL02 will fault > > just after spinup. If the RX02 is powered off, the RL02 > > doesn't fault at any time and runs just fine. With the RX02 on, does the RL02 spin up (even though it faults?) In other words is the disk actually rotating? > > > > My M8256 is set at address 177170, vector 264, priority BR5. > > The M7762 is set at address 174400, vector 160, priority BR5. > > I'm assuming both at BR5 isn't a problem? No, you can have as many devices as you like at the same priority level. Actually, even if you'd set them to the same address and/or vector I can't see what this would have caused the RL to fault. I believe an RL will fault if the ACLO (or is it DCLO) line on the backplane is asserted. Now why an RX)2 would be doing that is beyond me, but it might be worth sticking a logic probe on that signal and seeing if it ever goes low. > > > > Jay > > > Taking a wild guess ... have you an AM radio near the 11/45? > Could it be that the RX02 when it is on generates a lot of > noise? I am thinking of worn brushes on the spindle motor, but > I am not sure that motor has carbon brushes ... The RL fault lamp covers a lot of different problems.... What I'd do is grab the RL printset and look at the circuitry that drives the fault lamp. IIRC therr's what's logically a multi-input OR gate that combines a lot of different error condtion signals and turns on the fault lamp if any of them are asseted. So what I'd do that is put a logic probe on all those signals (one a ta time) and see which is/are asserted. Then work from there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 20 22:53:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:53:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Mar 20, 7 09:18:40 pm Message-ID: <m1HTrt8-000J16C@p850ug1> > > I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008 > system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches ) > seem so attractive ? > > It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... Actually, having use both a lights-and-switches panel and a keypad-and-numeric-display panel I much prefer the former. I am not sure why, but I find it more natural. Maybe it's because a lot of older machines have an instruction set that makes sense in binary -- that bit field is a register select code, that bit field determines the ALU operation, etc, but said bit fields do not align with boundaries of hex or octal digits. > > So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? It may have been that the hardware is a little simpler (encoding a keypad, if done with MSI or SSI chips takes a fair few chips, ditto driving a 7 seg display). The PDP11/34 after all had am 8008 processor to drive the keypard/display, older PDP11s had a lights-and-switches panel with a handfull of TTL ckips to control them > > a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable, > and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor > program) that expensive ? If you're thinking of using the 'main' CPU to drive the panel, don't. For the keypad/display to work, that CPU and most of the rest of the electronics, has to be working correctly. Remember that these development boards were often modified with the user's own hardare and it only takes a bus short or an incorrectly wired eanble line to keep the thing from running. It's a lot easier to debug the machine when you can send stuff onto the bus in hardware. Most, if not all, of the lights-and-switches panels (and, indeed, keypad panels on 'real' machines) were totally independant of the main CPU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 20 23:04:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 04:04:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Mar 20, 7 08:27:53 pm Message-ID: <m1HTs3V-000J1GC@p850ug1> > > > [possibly off topic, but what isn't these days? :-)] > > When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like > "single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of > simple circuits featuring a single transistor. > > (or who knows, maybe it was 101 transistor project; I think I was > in 4th grade at the time - late '60s) Thaere ahve been many such books. In the UK, a lot were published by Babani Press (they now seem to sell Windows books as well :-(). Also things like '50 simple LED projects', 'Simple projects using 7400 ICs', etc (I've probanly mis-remembered thsoe titles). > > anyway, one was a single transistor FM radio. I just remember it had a > single FET, a coil, a cap, some discreets. I think it told how to > wind the coil "in the air". Presumanlu it used slope detection? > > Does anyone remember such a book? Yes, bitterly. Along with the manuals for the '150 in 1' electronics kits. Many of the projects used 'clever tricks' and were not a all easy to understand just why they worked, or how to debug them when they didn't work. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 00:21:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:21:25 -0700 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <71AB74EA-E92C-4536-97D2-16BC75D16172@neurotica.com> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> <39FC2B5B-B0C0-44E2-82E7-279884E13785@neurotica.com> <4600AF18.6010909@jetnet.ab.ca> <71AB74EA-E92C-4536-97D2-16BC75D16172@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4600C0D5.3000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Mmmm, 2901s. I do love those. I want to do something with those > too...I have since the mid-1980s...but I've never gotten around to it. > I did get a chance to work with the 2910 in a research supercomputer > project in the 1980s, but no 2901s. Do you have any AMD software kicking around? Looking at some AMD 2901 examples I notice the use a 2901 assembler of some kind and having the software to go with the examples would be handy. > -Dave > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Mar 20 23:29:39 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:29:39 -0700 Subject: Crossbar and NeWS questions Message-ID: <9d896414bf1f8cf0ca177209a181b908@valleyimplants.com> I have two questions that have interested me a little, and as Johnson would put it I know neither the answer nor where to go to find the answer. (1) What is the history of the crossbar in computer architectures as a mainbus replacement? All I know of it is when it hit the desktop, and there it looks like it arrived first in the DEC 3000 AXP (not sure if this includes the 300 series or not), and then spread around the middle of the '90s with Sun picking it up as UPA and SGI going whole-hog for it. I assume it came down from mainframes or supercomputers, possibly a Control Data design? (2) What was the UI like on Sun's pre-OpenLook implementation of NeWS (or was there one?) Did it leverage SunView, or were parts of it similar to SGIs 4Sight? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 23:31:59 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:31:59 -0400 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <4600C0D5.3000301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> <39FC2B5B-B0C0-44E2-82E7-279884E13785@neurotica.com> <4600AF18.6010909@jetnet.ab.ca> <71AB74EA-E92C-4536-97D2-16BC75D16172@neurotica.com> <4600C0D5.3000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <60298879-3549-4C69-BBB9-12D29C2B4994@neurotica.com> On Mar 21, 2007, at 1:21 AM, woodelf wrote: > Do you have any AMD software kicking around? > Looking at some AMD 2901 examples I notice the use a 2901 assembler > of some kind and having the software to go with the examples would be > handy. No, I'm sorry, I don't. We had their assembler (or "assembler tool kit" or something like that) at the lab at which I worked at P.U., but we never opened the box, I believe because it was more tailored to stuff using 2901s and we were only using the 2910 so it wouldn't be all that useful. I believe it was for DOS and we didn't have any PCs around there anyway; the entire lab ran on a PDP-11/23 and a VAXstation-II/GPX, and later a VAX 8200. (one of the first 8200s at that; we were very excited!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 23:49:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:49:35 -0700 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <460056EF.18015.1475AD24@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2007 at 20:27, Brad Parker wrote: > > [possibly off topic, but what isn't these days? :-)] > > When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like > "single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of > simple circuits featuring a single transistor. > > (or who knows, maybe it was 101 transistor project; I think I was > in 4th grade at the time - late '60s) > > anyway, one was a single transistor FM radio. I just remember it had a > single FET, a coil, a cap, some discreets. I think it told how to > wind the coil "in the air". > > Does anyone remember such a book? > > I figure if anyone one would, it would be someone here... > seems like a fun thing to build now days with my son. Good on ya, Brad! I built my first receiver with my dad--using a 1G4GT, back when one could still buy "B" batteries. Many many years later, my father long gone--I still remember it fondly. I recall that he told me how, when he was a boy, he built his first non-crystal radio receiver using an 01A. The first transistor that I ever bought (not scavenged) was an RCA 2N109. I used a subminiature tube socket (the type of wire-lead tube used in hearing aids) scavenged from a Motorola Pixiie radio. You had to use a socket with the 2N109--the leads were only about 1/4" long. I remember a book for boys with a bunch of transistor projects--all using 2N107 (PNP) and 2N170 (NPN) transistors, or CK722/CK721 equivalents. Much to my surprise, someone is still selling 2N107s: http://semiconductormuseum.com/MuseumStore/MuseumStore_2N107_Index.htm Other semiconductors are fun to fool with in simple circuits; tunnel diodes, UJTs, etc. are worth checking into. Right now, I'm trying to recall a circuit I once saw of a one- transistor superhet. The same transistor was used for the self- exciting mixer and a stage of AF amplification. Detection was done with a diode. Does this ring any bells with anyone--or am I hallucinating again? At any rate, if you ever run into any of the 1950's Alfred P. Morgan "Electronics book for boys" at a library sale, grab it and give it to your son--he'll enjoy it. Morgan included projects for both tubes and transistors. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 20 23:00:12 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:00:12 -0400 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? Message-ID: <01C76B53.9BF60E00@MSE_D03> ------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:26:54 -0700 From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Why blinkenlights ? >Jos Dreesen wrote: >> So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? >I had Z80 kit around 1983 with keyboard and 7 segment display. --------------- I don't think that's the kind of micro he meant; my AIM65s had a full keyboard and alphanumeric display in '79 (AND an onboard PRINTER!) ;-) mike From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Wed Mar 21 00:37:46 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:37:46 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <001a01c76a84$ac20b340$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <KBEALOACJOKBFBDDFILOOEKOELAA.gmanuel@gmconsulting.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Snyder [mailto:ddsnyder at zoominternet.net] > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 8:14 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Free to a good home > > > To all, > > Seems my last post started something. I listed the Imsai, > PolyMorphic and Sol 20 only as > examples of what's in my collection. Sorry for any problems that > may have started. One should > never rush into a post (in real life as well). When I post > additional items for free, I'll make sure not to include > any references to my collection. > > Sorry, > > Dan Snyder > > > OOPS.... My bad!! Sorry about the comfusion on my end Dan. LOL Have a great one, Greg Manuel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 01:49:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:49:13 -0700 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <01C76B53.9BF60E00@MSE_D03> References: <01C76B53.9BF60E00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4600D569.9040208@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > --------------- > I don't think that's the kind of micro he meant; my AIM65s had a > full keyboard and alphanumeric display in '79 (AND an onboard > PRINTER!) Did the AIM65's run any software? The Z80 was a S-100 design, but the lack of a good power supply was my problem. From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Mar 21 01:14:45 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <4600C0D5.3000301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4600A4A5.4040903@jetnet.ab.ca> <39FC2B5B-B0C0-44E2-82E7-279884E13785@neurotica.com> <4600AF18.6010909@jetnet.ab.ca> <71AB74EA-E92C-4536-97D2-16BC75D16172@neurotica.com> <4600C0D5.3000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0703202306580.14238@stench.no.domain> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, woodelf wrote: > Do you have any AMD software kicking around? > Looking at some AMD 2901 examples I notice the use a 2901 assembler > of some kind and having the software to go with the examples would be > handy. If you look around, you can find some meta assemblers that claim to be at least mostly compatible with the AMD assembler. Google "Meta Assembler" and you'll find a few. Among other things, I'm responsible for maintaining the microcode for a 2910/29116 based controller at work. We were using the Microtec meta assembler, but hadn't bought the source, so were limited to running it on the VAX. I fiddled with a few of the things that pop up from Google, but wasn't impressed. So a year or so ago I coerced MACRO-32 into assembling the microcode using *almost* the same syntax. I wrote up a nice article for the OpenVMS Times, but as far as I know it's still sitting on the desk of the very *first* person that has to read it and approve it for publication before I can send it out. Grumble, grumble, grumble... Anyway, since I've moved to MACRO-32, I can now assemble on VAXen, Alphas, and (if ours ever gets delivered) IA64/Itanium/Integrity/Itanic /whatever it's called this week. MACRO-32 is amazingly flexible. This is not the first time I've used it to assembler microcode. I also used it for the microcode for FQAM, the QBUS adapter for the VAXstation 3520/3540. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Mar 21 03:05:35 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:05:35 +0000 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1174464335.5352.14.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2007-03-20 at 20:27 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: > [possibly off topic, but what isn't these days? :-)] Watch out! Actually, this is a nice antidote to the other carry-on. > When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like > "single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of > simple circuits featuring a single transistor. In the UK (& NZ etc.) there were the little Babani books: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Babani notably those written by Clive Sinclair (on-topic!) I found a list including these books here http://baec.tripod.com/library.htm which gives you an idea of what they produced. The ones I had dated from around 1975. I don't have any of mine here (they're in NZ) but maybe someone has a spare copy. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 21 04:09:37 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:09:37 -0700 Subject: Crossbar and NeWS questions References: <9d896414bf1f8cf0ca177209a181b908@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <4600F63B.1907698B@cs.ubc.ca> Scott Quinn wrote: > > (1) What is the history of the crossbar in computer architectures as a > mainbus replacement? All I know of it is when it hit the desktop, and > there it looks like it arrived first in the DEC 3000 AXP (not sure if > this includes the 300 series or not), and then spread around the middle > of the '90s with Sun picking it up as UPA and SGI going whole-hog for > it. I assume it came down from mainframes or supercomputers, possibly a > Control Data design? I recall reading an article in Annals of the History of Computing about a late 60's era mainframe in which memory and multiple processors were connected via some sort of crossbar/matrix switching arrangement. I think it was a Burroughs machine but my memory could be wrong on that even. I remember the diagram of the switching arrangement, and have been searching the IEEE/AotHoC site but I'm not coming up with much. (Unfortunately, search engines don't help much for graphical memories.) ..Sorry to be so vague, perhaps Chuck or Billy or another who was around then may recall something more specific. From cc at corti-net.de Wed Mar 21 04:43:09 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:43:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: Floppy Disk Controller evaluation / characterization In-Reply-To: <200703201929.l2KJTZpc001797@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703201929.l2KJTZpc001797@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703211026440.1804@linuxserv.home> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > If anyone can provide information for hardware not currently listed, that > would be very much appreciated. Please have a look at my posting from Thu, 23 Mar 2006, subject "Re: ImageDisk / PC FDCs & single-density". Arranged into your format, this would be: Data rate 250 300 500 Manufacturer FDC chip SDX SDX SDX ------------------------------------------- Acer M5105 PPP NPN PPN Intel i82072 PPF NPF PPF Intel i82077 FPF FPF FPF Nat.Semi. DP8473 PPP NPN PPN SMC Super I/O PPF NPF PPF WD WD37C65 PPF NPF PPF Winbond W83757 FPF FPF FPF As these were mostly add-on ISA cards (what else ;-) there are no mainboard manufacturers and models, and no CPU class; the same card worked in different class PCs (testet with 80386SX-20, P5/60 and P5/100 systems). Christian From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 21 04:58:56 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:58:56 +0000 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703202045q5da6e8a0x79a0b8dfafe103b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703201852q1361bfdct5df17355fbe4eef2@mail.gmail.com> <p06240842c2265f0bc863@192.168.1.199> <1e1fc3e90703202045q5da6e8a0x79a0b8dfafe103b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1174471136.2435.2.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-03-20 at 20:45 -0700, Glen Slick wrote: > On 3/20/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > You might want to keep your eye out for a 3rd > > party disk controller with the bootstrap built in. > > That's a good point. I have more than one Emulex QD21, a Dilog DQ696, > and a Sigma RDQ11, which are all Q-bus ESDI controllers and they all > have firmware with boot and built-in formatting support. They were I have one of these, and no (working) boot ROMs. So what I do is I have the bootstrap programmed into one of the programmable function keys on my VT520. It works, and there's enough room for an RL02 bootstrap on another key too. Gordon From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Mar 21 07:12:38 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:12:38 +0000 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <200703201802.l2KI0st3008200@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703201802.l2KI0st3008200@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk> > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:33:54 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Subject: Re: John Backus passes away... > > Considering FORTRAN for what it was when it came out, it was pretty > remarkable. I recall an old ACM (was it SIGPLAN?) recollection of > one of the first users of 704(?) FORTRAN. What impressed me was that > this compiler-on-cards pointed out a syntax error with message of the > form: > > A COMPUTED GOTO REQUIRES A COMMA BETWEEN THE STATEMENT LIST AND > VARIABLE. E.G. GOTO (100,200,300),J I used Fortran 4 on the IBM 7094 at Imperial College London. I remember one day the compiler reported: FORMAT MISSPELLED ON LINE xxx FORMAT ASSUMED. I was used to syntax error messages by the dozen but this was the first time I had seen the compiler correct an error and run the job. Of course we are used to warnings now, but I think it was that one which got me interested enough in compilers to eventually get a job writing them. > At one point in time, given machines with different character sets > and word- and character sizes, FORTRAN was about the only way to > write a portable program. If the program involved, for instance, > text manipulation, one included as the first card of the data file > one punched with all of the characters of the alphabet to be used and > read it into an integer array using 80A1 format. If you stuck to floating point and small numbers but there were big problems with word length variations when using integers. > > Did any computer built after 1960 NOT have a FORTRAN implementation? Yes, my ICT1301 (155+ built from 1962 to 1965) had no Fortran compiler. But then the line printer did not have any sort of parentheses. Not () [] or {}. It had 1/4,1/2 and 3/4 though. I have a replacement print barrel with round brackets instead if the 1/4 and 3/4 symbols but I have not fitted it yet, and most 1300 series machines had the standard barrel. I seem to remember that some of the people who taught me to program considered Fortran to be too close to the 7094 instruction set, in particular they said the computed goto mapped directly onto a 7094 instruction and hence considered it to be not very universal, and to support it would be to assist IBM in its domination of the computer market. Not that I think that way, and of course it is Microsoft which now dominates the computer market, I haven't seen a new IBM machine in years. > IIRC, that was a big selling point for the PDP-8. > > There was a period in time where just about any serious programmer > had a copy of McCracken on their bookshelves. Maybe before my time (BSc Computer Science graduated 1974), but I think most serious programmers had a copy of Knuth vol 1. (not to open a thread on what defines a "real programmer", I expect that has been done to death on this list long before I joined it). > > Didn't Backus also participate in the Algol-60 effort? I don't know, but Algol 60 was defined using BNF. > > There were big sections of the CDC FTN compiler (prior to the > introduction of SYMPL) that were written in FORTRAN. One of the > biggest nightmares was the processor for allocating storage in COMMON > and EQUIVALENCE statements--a big mass of assigned GOTOs. Even after > I understood how it worked, I was afraid to touch it. On the subject of being afraid to touch code, I worked on a compiler written in a non recursive language (Coral 66, a real time language derived from Algol 60). It had a large data table which defined how to parse the language. The compiler had an array of integers which was really a stack, but instead of return addresses it had integers which referred to cases in a huge switch list. I was happy to change any of the code, but fortunately did not need to change the data table for a long long time, and when I did it was with EXTREME care and trepidation. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 21 08:40:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:40:12 -0600 Subject: nice Q-bus microvax on ebay Message-ID: <E1HU12y-0005dW-00@xmission.xmission.com> Item # 250096417081 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Mar 21 09:22:30 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:22:30 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703202045q5da6e8a0x79a0b8dfafe103b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703201852q1361bfdct5df17355fbe4eef2@mail.gmail.com> <p06240842c2265f0bc863@192.168.1.199> <1e1fc3e90703202045q5da6e8a0x79a0b8dfafe103b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> >> You might want to keep your eye out for a 3rd >> party disk controller with the bootstrap built in. > > That's a good point. I have more than one Emulex QD21, a Dilog DQ696, > and a Sigma RDQ11, which are all Q-bus ESDI controllers and they all > have firmware with boot and built-in formatting support. They were > much cheaper on eBay than Q-bus SCSI controllers, although SCSI drives > are basically free and you'll pay something for an ESDI drive, but not > as much as for a large working MFM drive. I have a Emulex QU32 SMD controller but no drives to go with it. I also have a Maxtor EXT 4380 ESDI drive but no controller for it. I don't suppose anyone would like to trade me boot card for either or both of these? Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff? I have a bunch of MicroVAX I and II parts and a BA23 chassis. Also a number of KDF11 CPU boards. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 21 09:20:55 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:20:55 -0500 Subject: snail-mailing classiccmp stuff (was: Re: Hosting and Bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <01ac01c76b5d$bd573c90$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net>, <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING>, <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org><45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> <46009BBF.2040502@jetnet.ab.ca> <01ac01c76b5d$bd573c90$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <46013F47.5040504@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > woodelf wrote... >> Well I think a DVD rom of bitsavers is your best buy for your $$$. > > I'm guessing "a DVD rom" of bitsavers runs around 15 or so DVD's right now. Can you easily handle other formats - DLT, hard disk etc.? (with a "mail me the media first + pay postage" clause :-) That might be far less hassle on both sides in certain situations. cheers Jules From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 21 09:28:48 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 9:28:48 -0500 Subject: Crossbar and NeWS questions Message-ID: <20070321142848.OBN15873.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Scott Quinn wrote: > > > > (1) What is the history of the crossbar in computer architectures as a > > mainbus replacement? > > I recall reading an article in Annals of the History of Computing about a > late 60's era mainframe in which memory and multiple processors were > connected via some sort of crossbar/matrix switching arrangement. > I think it was a Burroughs machine but my memory could be wrong on that even. CMU did a parallel machine like that using PDP-11/40s. They used 16 machines and 16 memory banks. It was called C.mmp. I think for me, reconstructing that would be the ultimate in classic geek. Also, while I haven't watched all that carefully, I'm sure there are others who have also used crossbars to route inter-processor communication. I even messed around with that approach a little. BLS From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 21 09:46:35 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:46:35 -0700 Subject: snail-mailing classiccmp stuff In-Reply-To: <46013F47.5040504@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net>, <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING>, <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org><45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> <46009BBF.2040502@jetnet.ab.ca> <01ac01c76b5d$bd573c90$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <46013F47.5040504@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4601454B.6080807@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Jay West wrote: > >> I'm guessing "a DVD rom" of bitsavers runs around 15 or so DVD's right >> now. > > > Can you easily handle other formats - DLT, hard disk etc.? (with a "mail > me the media first + pay postage" clause :-) > > That might be far less hassle on both sides in certain situations. I think this is a grand idea. On the US side, I could easily manage from TK50 to DLT-IV, 8mm to Mammoth I, 4mm DDS1 to DDS3; SCSI, IDE, and SATA disk, external USB or IEEE1394 media, CD-ROM, DVD and DVD-DL. I don't have the bandwidth to host an archive, but this is one way I can (and would love to) contribute. Doc From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Mar 21 09:57:24 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:57:24 -0500 Subject: Floppy Disk Controller evaluation / characterization In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703211026440.1804@linuxserv.home> References: <200703201929.l2KJTZpc001797@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703211457.l2LEvJN7009756@hosting.monisys.ca> > On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > If anyone can provide information for hardware not currently listed, that > > would be very much appreciated. > > Please have a look at my posting from Thu, 23 Mar 2006, subject > "Re: ImageDisk / PC FDCs & single-density". > > Arranged into your format, this would be: > > Data rate > 250 300 500 > Manufacturer FDC chip SDX SDX SDX > ------------------------------------------- > Acer M5105 PPP NPN PPN > Intel i82072 PPF NPF PPF > Intel i82077 FPF FPF FPF > Nat.Semi. DP8473 PPP NPN PPN > SMC Super I/O PPF NPF PPF > WD WD37C65 PPF NPF PPF > Winbond W83757 FPF FPF FPF > > As these were mostly add-on ISA cards (what else ;-) there are no > mainboard manufacturers and models, and no CPU class; the same card worked > in different class PCs (testet with 80386SX-20, P5/60 and P5/100 systems). Hi Christian, Thanks for the information - I'm going to create a second listing in my file for "incomplete" information - Often there are other factors in the design in addition to the FDC chip which affect the capibilities of the system as a whole, so I think it's worthwhile noting the actual board and model tested. The reason I list the FDC chip however is because they are one of the most important factors in determining floppy capabilities, and I wanted to give people enough information to "comparison select" - (humm.. I don't have any of these boards, but I have one with this FDC which seems to work on several other boards - It might be a good candidate). For IO cards, I plan to use a class of 'IO' - I'll list these as '?' since it appears to be a mix of I/O cards and mainboard FDCs - unless you can clairify it further. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Wed Mar 21 09:55:33 2007 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:55:33 -0400 Subject: VT100 available... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703081416l4928f0fv5d75f3ba02050b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703081308j4534f341s542289335c5e8c2f@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.GSO.4.55.0703081323280.27921@helios.cs.csubak.edu> <f4eb766f0703081416l4928f0fv5d75f3ba02050b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36A0A977-419C-4E1B-820E-FF708F7B9C11@mind-to-mind.com> I have a VT100 available. If anyone is interested I'll pull it out of the basement and test it (it worked last time I tested it). I'm in RI. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Mar 21 09:35:20 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF > for my KDJ11-AA and > some other stuff? I have a bunch of MicroVAX I and > II parts and a > BA23 chassis. Also a number of KDF11 CPU boards. Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you want. -Ian From steve at radiorobots.com Wed Mar 21 09:50:01 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:50:01 -0500 Subject: Early WLAN Message-ID: <46014619.9050402@radiorobots.com> Hi All, Looking for documentation on early WLAN. Specifically, WinData, SpectraLink, and WaveRider. Any comments or info appreciated Steve From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 21 10:31:46 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:31:46 -0500 Subject: snail-mailing classiccmp stuff (was: Re: Hosting and Bandwidth) References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net>, <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING>, <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org><45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> <46009BBF.2040502@jetnet.ab.ca><01ac01c76b5d$bd573c90$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <46013F47.5040504@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00f901c76bce$0a8cc0a0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Jules wrote... > Can you easily handle other formats - DLT, hard disk etc.? (with a "mail > me the media first + pay postage" clause :-) > > That might be far less hassle on both sides in certain situations. I have done USB hard disk dumps of bitsavers for people. I'd certainly prefer that to burning CD/DVD media :) Just send me the USB hard drive (70gb+) and I'll send it back with bitsavers on it. Jay From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Mar 21 10:35:19 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:35:19 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F51B636-F5C7-4C03-9957-3C124F4C8BD8@xlisper.com> > >> Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF >> for my KDJ11-AA and >> some other stuff? I have a bunch of MicroVAX I and >> II parts and a >> BA23 chassis. Also a number of KDF11 CPU boards. > > > Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU > board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I > have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you > want. The KDJ11-AA CPU board doesn't have space for a boot ROM. That's why I'd like to find a KDJ11-Bx. It has a boot ROM and a console port. Thanks, David > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 10:33:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:33:10 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF > > for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff? > > Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU > board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I > have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you > want. Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height and is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the mini-computer world, boot ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you don't "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup). What he's asking for is a KDJ11-B, a quad-height CPU with accessories such as a console SLU, and boot ROMs. If he had a KDJ11-B, he'd already be up and running. -ethan From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Mar 21 10:51:12 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:51:12 -0400 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... In-Reply-To: <200703210023.14617.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200703210359.l2L3wpR4021126@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200703210023.14617.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <200703211151.12657.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 21 March 2007 12:23:14 am Francesca Smith wrote: Hiya, Not to interject myself into this conversation. But I will :-) But I went to bitsavers and looked high and low and did not see anything that indicated they were perhaps looking for funding for their efforts. Now while what they do is Noble and all. One can not eat a Noble since I heard they are kinda tough and chewy. In any case perhaps people just need to be able to have a way to contribute towards these fine endeavors. ?? -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Mar 21 10:43:21 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board > is dual-height and > is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the > mini-computer world, boot > ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front > panel, you don't > "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast > startup). Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use an onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in the middle for then? Well, at least the PDP-11 can load bootstrap code from ROM. On a Prime it is all handled through the VCP, and bootstrap code has to be loaded from floppy. (slowly). -Ian From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Mar 21 10:52:42 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:52:42 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration Message-ID: <0JF900EOSG3G0FU4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:33:10 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF >> > for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff? >> >> Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU >> board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I >> have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you >> want. > >Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height and >is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the mini-computer world, boot >ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you don't >"need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup). I'm using a KDJ11A and it boots RX02/RL02/MSCP devices with the right jumper setup. If memory serves the dual width J11 baord has rom on baord for standard device boot. My Docs for that board are burried. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Mar 21 10:57:32 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:57:32 -0400 Subject: KDJ11-A info location on net Message-ID: <0JF90002SGBAZQB7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Rather than dig out the manual I found this for the KDJ11-A.. http://hampage.hu/dr/kdj11a.html#jumpers Hope it helps. Allison From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Mar 21 11:02:04 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:02:04 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703201852q1361bfdct5df17355fbe4eef2@mail.gmail.com> <p06240842c2265f0bc863@192.168.1.199> <1e1fc3e90703202045q5da6e8a0x79a0b8dfafe103b6@mail.gmail.com> <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <0D02438C-B7C6-4CF6-A099-F3A2A47121E9@xlisper.com> >>> You might want to keep your eye out for a 3rd >>> party disk controller with the bootstrap built in. >> >> That's a good point. I have more than one Emulex QD21, a Dilog >> DQ696, >> and a Sigma RDQ11, which are all Q-bus ESDI controllers and they all >> have firmware with boot and built-in formatting support. They were >> much cheaper on eBay than Q-bus SCSI controllers, although SCSI >> drives >> are basically free and you'll pay something for an ESDI drive, but >> not >> as much as for a large working MFM drive. > > I have a Emulex QU32 SMD controller but no drives to go with it. I > also have a Maxtor EXT 4380 ESDI drive but no controller for it. I > don't suppose anyone would like to trade me boot card for either or > both of these? > > Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF for my KDJ11-AA > and some other stuff? I have a bunch of MicroVAX I and II parts and > a BA23 chassis. Also a number of KDF11 CPU boards. Okay, I just opened up another box (a MVII in a BA123) and found that it contains a SCD-RQD11-EC controller. I believe this is an ESDI controller with onboard boot ROM. This ought to work but since it came out of a MicroVAX, I'm assuming that the boot ROM will only work on a VAX. Is that correct? Or is there both PDP-11 and VAX code in the ROM? Also, I can't find a manual for this board. Manx doesnt have it and Bitsavers has a manual for the RQD11-ECPlus but that doesn't seem to match the board layout of my board so I can't use it to determine the switch settings. Anyone have documentation on this board? Also, what do I have to watch out for when using stuff that originally came from a MicroVAX to build a PDP-11 system? The BA23 chassis that I'm using started out life as a MicroVAX-I and many of the boards came from VAXen. From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Mar 21 11:03:09 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:03:09 -0500 Subject: Early WLAN In-Reply-To: <46014619.9050402@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070321110224.0b9cebf0@localhost> At 09:50 AM 3/21/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Hi All, > >Looking for documentation on early WLAN. > >Specifically, WinData, SpectraLink, and WaveRider. I think I may have a WaveRider access point and a card in a box somewhere in the dungeon. >Any comments or info appreciated > >Steve ----- 342. [Computing] Minsky and I require every graduate student to take an oath at the grave of E.E. "Doc" Smith before he can receive a PhD in AI. --John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305 --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Mar 21 11:18:42 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:18:42 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <0JF900EOSG3G0FU4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JF900EOSG3G0FU4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <60D16245-7E90-4FCF-B947-2B63DC84FBE4@xlisper.com> > I'm using a KDJ11A and it boots RX02/RL02/MSCP devices with the right > jumper setup. If memory serves the dual width J11 baord has rom on > baord > for standard device boot. My Docs for that board are burried. > The KDJ11-AA manual I got from Bitsavers says that the KDJ11-AA requires a MXV11-B2 boot ROM installed on either an MXV11-B or MRV11- D. Unfortunately, I don't have either of those modules or that ROM. Again, anyone have one a MXV11-B with the B2 ROM or a KDJ11-B for trade? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 11:18:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:18:57 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <0JF900EOSG3G0FU4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JF900EOSG3G0FU4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703210918s3c78106y127b8a4a36cf40c@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > I wrote > > Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height and > > is a CPU only > > I'm using a KDJ11A and it boots RX02/RL02/MSCP devices with the right > jumper setup. If memory serves the dual width J11 baord has rom on baord > for standard device boot. My Docs for that board are burried. I think you must have your boot ROM on another board in your system... http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote39.txt -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 11:22:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:22:18 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703210922i74e336d1v364507f30635460d@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote: > Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use an > onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in > the middle for then? The 40-pin socket? AFAIK, it's not for a boot ROM. Given that there are 40-pin sockets on other Qbus CPUs for things like EIS, FIS, etc., it must be one of those. I don't have a KDF11A, so I've never worried about extending the instruction set. Most of my Qbus PDP-11 work has been with the KDF11 and older (11/03, 11/23...) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 11:23:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:23:34 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703210922i74e336d1v364507f30635460d@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703210922i74e336d1v364507f30635460d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703210923t2521d315waaed58301054536c@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > ...I don't have a KDF11A... That should be "KDJ11A". Sorry for the typo. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 11:24:18 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:24:18 -0700 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703210924s2d823129jbebcc573525b04f9@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote: > > Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use an > onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in > the middle for then? > The empty socket on a KDJ11-A is for the floating-point accelerator. I think you need either a M7195 MXV11-B or a M8578 MRV11-D for a Q22 board on which you can install EPROMs. Earlier versions of those boards are not 22-bit. -Glen From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Mar 21 11:24:01 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:24:01 -0000 Subject: nice Q-bus microvax on ebay In-Reply-To: <E1HU12y-0005dW-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <008101c76bd5$56e7daf0$3304010a@uatempname> Richard wrote: > Item # 250096417081 I'm trying to work out what: "3.CR10X2 CR10X1 BSWQ" and "7.CR6P1 CR6P2" might be. Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.16/729 - Release Date: 21/03/2007 07:52 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 11:30:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:30:07 -0400 Subject: KDJ11-A info location on net In-Reply-To: <0JF90002SGBAZQB7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JF90002SGBAZQB7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703210930h1ae9f1c8k6afa8ddf8de2cc16@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > Rather than dig out the manual I found this for the > KDJ11-A.. > > http://hampage.hu/dr/kdj11a.html#jumpers While I agree that the jumpers are part of the bootstrap process, as verified by a Digital micronote documenting the differences between the KDJ11-A and KDJ11-B... http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote39.txt ... the KDJ11-A does not have an onboard boot ROM (but you do appear to be able to set it to boot to an external ROM in some place other than the default location in 22-bit address space, possibly to allow it to work in a 18-bit backplane). -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 11:30:44 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:30:44 -0700 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <0D02438C-B7C6-4CF6-A099-F3A2A47121E9@xlisper.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703201852q1361bfdct5df17355fbe4eef2@mail.gmail.com> <p06240842c2265f0bc863@192.168.1.199> <1e1fc3e90703202045q5da6e8a0x79a0b8dfafe103b6@mail.gmail.com> <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <0D02438C-B7C6-4CF6-A099-F3A2A47121E9@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703210930i75559ff7t4a1e9d07756a9692@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > Okay, I just opened up another box (a MVII in a BA123) and found that > it contains a SCD-RQD11-EC controller. I believe this is an ESDI > controller with onboard boot ROM. This ought to work but since it > came out of a MicroVAX, I'm assuming that the boot ROM will only work > on a VAX. Is that correct? Or is there both PDP-11 and VAX code in > the ROM? Also, I can't find a manual for this board. Manx doesnt have > it and Bitsavers has a manual for the RQD11-ECPlus but that doesn't > seem to match the board layout of my board so I can't use it to > determine the switch settings. Anyone have documentation on this board? > Ok, now you're in luck. The SCD-RQD11-EC will work with the KDJ11-A and your Maxtor EXT 4380 ESDI drive. I couldn't find the manual either, but extrapolated enough out of the RQD11-ECPlus manual to figure out how to configure it. The onboard "WOMBAT" utilities will let you format the drive and boot the drive, and will run on the PDP-11. The controller also has cache on board, maybe 512MB, I forget without checking. I have some notes on the switch settings to enable the ROM and set the addresses. I'll dig those out tonight. -Glen From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Mar 21 11:40:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:40:50 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration Message-ID: <0JF9000PQIBHZIL7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:18:57 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 3/21/07, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: >> I wrote >> > Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height and >> > is a CPU only >> >> I'm using a KDJ11A and it boots RX02/RL02/MSCP devices with the right >> jumper setup. If memory serves the dual width J11 baord has rom on baord >> for standard device boot. My Docs for that board are burried. > >I think you must have your boot ROM on another board in your system... > >http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote39.txt > >-ethan It's possible since I configured that system nearly 10 years ago and it hasn't been opened since save for cleaning the fans. The only board that could have a boot rom would be the RQDX3. I'll have to check net time I clean the fans. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 11:43:23 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:43:23 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <0D02438C-B7C6-4CF6-A099-F3A2A47121E9@xlisper.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703201852q1361bfdct5df17355fbe4eef2@mail.gmail.com> <p06240842c2265f0bc863@192.168.1.199> <1e1fc3e90703202045q5da6e8a0x79a0b8dfafe103b6@mail.gmail.com> <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <0D02438C-B7C6-4CF6-A099-F3A2A47121E9@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703210943u55c21d89l9552057020ce039@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > Okay, I just opened up another box (a MVII in a BA123) and found that > it contains a SCD-RQD11-EC controller. I believe this is an ESDI > controller with onboard boot ROM. This ought to work but since it > came out of a MicroVAX, I'm assuming that the boot ROM will only work > on a VAX. Is that correct? Or is there both PDP-11 and VAX code in > the ROM? Lacking documentation, I can speculate that it would be unlikely to be able to boot this card off of either a VAX or PDP-11 without some change, either a jumper to enable which processor's boot code is presented to the bus, or a different ROM entirely. You _might_ be able to use this card just to hold a copy of a PDP-11 boot ROM, but if you want to stuff it into the same box as an RQDX3 (and boot from the RQDX3), you'll need to restrap the CSR on the SCD-RQD11 to something other than the primary address. If you wanted to test the theory, stick this card into the BA23 with your KDJ11-A and use ODT to read out the default boot address (1730000 / 7730000 or something like that, off the top of my head). If you see random octal numbers that look like code, you are probably reading the ROM. Try pulling the ROM from the SCD-RQD11 and repeating the test. If you get some sort of uniform memory garbage (all 00s, all 177777s, etc.), you should have a reasonable expectation that you are reading that ROM. Replace it with one that has the PDP-11 MSCP bootstrap at the front, and you should be in business. I think, though, that you said you didn't have a console SLU, so that will make ODT tests difficult. > Also, what do I have to watch out for when using stuff that > originally came from a MicroVAX to build a PDP-11 system? The BA23 > chassis that I'm using started out life as a MicroVAX-I and many of > the boards came from VAXen. Hmm... PMI memory boards are not (to the best of my knowledge) compatible between MicroVAXen and PDP-11s, but you don't have a PMI-capable CPU anyway. The disks and serial cards and network cards, etc., should all be compatible. Where it really comes into play is at the OS level - there are probably lots of cards found in VAXen that there wouldn't be a RSTS or RT-11 driver for, for example. Not that you need synchronous serial comms, but we used to ship RSTS drivers _and_ VMS drivers for our Qbus COMBOARD, but not everyone did that. I am not aware of any MSCP limitations between the platforms, so you should be OK with any semi-modern disk controller you turn up. Serial peripherals are the ones most likely to have spotty support between VAX and PDP-11, in my estimation. The expected base configurations may be different (PDP-11 + DLV11 + disk... vs uVAX + DZQ + disk...) may be different, but except for known serial issues (no support for DLV11J under VMS, console SLU always provided on uVAX, optional on PDP-11 CPU board, etc.), the Qbus is quite indifferent to the nature of the CPU in the first slot. I hope this has been illuminating. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 21 11:52:48 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:52:48 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200703211252.49008.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:43, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board > > is dual-height and > > is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the > > mini-computer world, boot > > ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front > > panel, you don't > > "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast > > startup). > > Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use an > onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in > the middle for then? Without having one handy to look at, it's probably the FP accelerator socket. Is it a 40-pin DIP socket? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 21 11:56:07 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:56:07 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> References: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:33, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF > > > for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff? > > > > Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU > > board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I > > have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you > > want. > > Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height > and is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the mini-computer world, > boot ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you > don't "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup). True, but it's unlikely that any system with a KDJ11-A in it didn't have some sort of boot ROM; there wasn't any front-panel that I know of for those machines. The -A version was typically used in OEM gear which had a boot-rom (or just a rom with the system's runtime code in it) on some other board. At least that's been my experience on the systems I've seen. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a QBUS system that didn't have a boot or code rom in it, unless someone had pulled parts out of the system already. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 13:11:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:11:35 -0700 Subject: Early WLAN In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070321110224.0b9cebf0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070321110224.0b9cebf0@localhost> Message-ID: <46017557.8010808@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Peters wrote: > ----- > 342. [Computing] Minsky and I require every graduate student to take an > oath at > the grave of E.E. "Doc" Smith before he can receive a PhD in AI. --John > McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305 I can see why AI progress is so advanced lately. Other than brute force hardware, has hardware design stopped since the 1990's? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 21 12:17:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:17:47 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk> References: <200703201802.l2KI0st3008200@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4601064B.8199.1722AECA@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2007 at 12:12, Roger Holmes wrote: > I used Fortran 4 on the IBM 7094 at Imperial College London. I > remember one day the compiler reported: I used FORTRAN II under FMS II on the 7090 but never saw a FORTRAN IV implementation there. It's been entirely too long ago, but, as I recall, one punched a "B" in column 1 for boolean expressions, "D" for double-precision and "I" for complex, as FORTRAN II still relied on implicit typing for variables. One of the most diagnostic-bald versions of FORTRAN I ever used was the "USA BASIC FORTRAN" under DOS/360. The thing couldn't have had more than about 10 diagnostic messages, most of them single-word. > I was used to syntax error messages by the dozen but this was the > first time I had seen the compiler correct an error and run the job. Of > course we are used to warnings now, but I think it was that one which > got me interested enough in compilers to eventually get a job writing > them. Pat could probably fill in details here, but Purdue for many years used 7090/94's to run a student variant of FORTRAN called PUFFT. The basic idea was for the compiler to 'fix" as many errors as possible so that a program would run somehow. I believe it was described by Saul Rosen in an ACM paper and republished in one of those "Programming Languages Survey" books. IIRC, the 709x were also used as I/O front ends for the CDC 6600 there, which ran Purdue's own variant of MACE, rather than the more-or-less standard SCOPE. Greg Mansfield was pretty proud of that. > If you stuck to floating point and small numbers but there were big > problems with word length variations when using integers. IIRC, the 32-bit floating point word (with 4-bit normalization granularity) of S/360 cost IBM a bunch of business in the "scientific" world. It had one of the lowest-precision FP representation of big iron at the time. I believe that IBM eventually remedied this with "extended precision". > I seem to remember that some of the people who taught me to program > considered Fortran to be too close to the 7094 instruction set, in > particular they said the computed goto mapped directly onto a 7094 instruction and > hence considered it to be not very universal, and to support it would be to > assist IBM in its domination of the computer market. That must have been some clever propganda on the part of someone! But conspiracy theories have always been popular. Computed GOTOs weren't exactly the dominant feature of most programs--and they were implemented as simple indexed jumps for the most part--a feature scarcely unique to IBM hardware! For small systems, FORTRAN was amazingly useful. The other day, I ran across some code that I wrote for CP/M to convert between ISIS-II and CP/M file formats--in FORTRAN. Compiler design has come a long way since. In the 1970's, I recall that a co-worker pushed a PTR in front of my face that was, frankly, quite surprising. CDC FTN for years allowed an alternative way of expressing Hollerith constants using any arbitrary delimiter character, so 5HCHUCK and H*CHUCK* were equivalent ways of expressing the same constant. Most people used asterisks or the not-equal symbol (the standard character set didn't have quotation marks), but the compiler would allow just about anything. The statement in question looked something like this: 100 FORMAT( HX)=(1+BX ) Recall, that prior to FORTRAN 90, FORTRAN had no reserved words. Cheers, Chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Mar 21 12:21:26 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:21:26 -0400 Subject: Board ID? Message-ID: <8B506205-1E8C-46D0-8A78-D48B115330B9@xlisper.com> I have a qbus board that I'd like to identify. I think it's some sort of SCSI adapter but I don't know if it will support disks or if it is "tape only". The board is labeled "TD Systems (c) 1987 ASSY 210-00031". In another place on the board it says "211 00031 REV E". It has a ROM on it labeled "Viking Q/B A4.1". Is this a Viking SCSI adapter? Can anyone point me to a manual for it? I've already checked Bitsavers and Manx and haven't found it. Also, if it is a SCSI hard disk capable adapter, does it have an onboard boot that will work with a PDP-11? Thanks! David From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Mar 21 13:31:15 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:31:15 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <212D2118-0A8B-47BE-8DEB-C289C2FD121D@xlisper.com> >>>> Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF >>>> for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff? >>> >>> Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU >>> board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I >>> have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you >>> want. >> >> Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height >> and is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the mini-computer world, >> boot ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you >> don't "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup). > > True, but it's unlikely that any system with a KDJ11-A in it didn't > have > some sort of boot ROM; there wasn't any front-panel that I know of for > those machines. The -A version was typically used in OEM gear which > had a boot-rom (or just a rom with the system's runtime code in it) on > some other board. The problem is, I got the KDJ11-A board by itself and not in a system. I do have some MXV11-A modules but I guess they can't boot an RD53 or ESDI drive. I think I can use one for a console port though. I guess I'll have to do that because my CPU card doesn't have one of those either. I believe I need to disable the onboard RAM though because the RAM on the MXV11-A isn't Q22 compatible. From shumaker at att.net Wed Mar 21 13:07:46 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:07:46 -0800 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703210027.l2L0Rrd7005295@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070321100355.03330c28@att.net> A mag called "101 Electronic Projects" 1979 edition ( IIRC it was an R-E supplemental pub) has 1 transistor and 2 transistor projects... I could scan and email if you like s shumaker At 04:27 PM 3/20/2007, you wrote: >[possibly off topic, but what isn't these days? :-)] > >When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like >"single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of >simple circuits featuring a single transistor. > >(or who knows, maybe it was 101 transistor project; I think I was >in 4th grade at the time - late '60s) > >anyway, one was a single transistor FM radio. I just remember it had a >single FET, a coil, a cap, some discreets. I think it told how to >wind the coil "in the air". > >Does anyone remember such a book? > >I figure if anyone one would, it would be someone here... > >seems like a fun thing to build now days with my son. > >-brad From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 21 13:11:14 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:11:14 -0400 Subject: nice Q-bus microvax on ebay In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:24:01 -0000.) <008101c76bd5$56e7daf0$3304010a@uatempname> References: <008101c76bd5$56e7daf0$3304010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <200703211811.l2LIBEvC009704@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Item # 250096417081 Note that (if the label is correct) it's a 240V unit. De From shumaker at att.net Wed Mar 21 13:19:48 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:19:48 -0800 Subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?) In-Reply-To: <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> That style of keyboard was also used in the "Northgate" computers. They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the market and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate 80s. Steel frames, virtually no flex, REAL mechanical keys, programmable function sets... The computers have long since disappeared (company folded many years ago) but the keyboards still show up occasionally on e-bay. Called Omnikey and Omnikey Ultra.. I'm still using one today. s shumaker At 07:21 PM 3/20/2007, you wrote: >On Mar 21, 2007, at 12:02 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>until recently, keyboards were not cheap. 25 years ago, the PC >>>keyboards >>>were about $300 >> >>Are *GOOD* keyboards cheap? The keyboard I'm typing this on cost >>me $160, and the ADB-to-USB converter it's plugged into was >>probably another $20. >> >>For that matter what modern keyboards are worth owning? At work I >>use an antique IBM keyboard that was originally on an RS6k 340, and >>here at home I use a combination of my 16 year old "cheap" AT clone >>keyboard, an SGI keyboard, various DEC keyboards, an HP Itanium 2 >>Workstation keyboard (on my Sunblade 1000 no less), and the >>keyboard that came with my PowerMac G5 2x2 is on my work laptop (an >>IBM ThinkPad). Personally I toss any modern cheap PC keyboards I >>get. If it wasn't for the fact I don't have a better keyboard the >>HP one would be tossed, the Apple USB keyboard at least is not to >>bad, I just don't like the design. >> >>If I pick up a keyboard with the short ends in each hand, and it >>flexes when I gently twist, it is considered trash, and treated >>accordingly. > > Same here. The only "good" PS/2-interfaced keyboards I have here >are a big box of SGI "granite" units, and even they have some flex >(not much) to them. At least they have some heft, though. > > However, one other keyboard does stand out. A few months ago, I >picked up an Enermax Aurora keyboard, which has an aluminum chassis >and the "X"-mechanism keys that are similar to those of higher-end >laptops like Powerbooks. I love the keyboard on my Powerbook-G4; I >can *fly* when I'm typing on that...so I wanted to see if I could >find a similar keyboard for my desktop machine. This Enermax is >definitely that; they key mechanism is very similar to that used on >the Powerbook. My typing speed is much better with this keyboard. > > And the case is made of *METAL*. Very nice. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 13:30:55 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:30:55 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703211130x46575780t14d9ad048442f7ea@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> wrote: > On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:33, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >(yes, in the mini-computer world, > > boot ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you > > don't "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup). > > True, but it's unlikely that any system with a KDJ11-A in it didn't have > some sort of boot ROM; there wasn't any front-panel that I know of for > those machines. The -A version was typically used in OEM gear which > had a boot-rom (or just a rom with the system's runtime code in it) on > some other board. In the specific case of Qbus systems, you are correct. I was (apparently unclearly) describing the general nature of PDP-11s, PDP-8s, etc., with regard to boot ROMs to distinguish them from the microcomputers that most people have had experience with. Yes, early S-100 micros had front panels and might or might have had boot ROMs, but for all pre-6100-microprocessor PDP-8s, one could have a boot ROM, or a front panel, or both. A similar arrangement exists for Unibus PDP-11s (boot ROM, or a front panel, or both). I don't know of any front panels for Qbus machines, so perhaps I could have been clearer in my explanation. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 13:48:31 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:48:31 -0400 Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP In-Reply-To: <200703201711.40959.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> <p0624083fc22604768d33@[192.168.1.199]> <200703201711.40959.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46017DFF.9060000@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 20 March 2007 17:47, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I'd be curious to know which version of PHP is supported on the >> AS400, and if you have the opportunity to run MySQL (if so what >> version), as it seems to be required by a lot of the more interesting >> PHP apps. > > Running MySQL on an AS/400 seems to be missing the point of running on > an AS/400... What is the standard database for running with RPG (that's the right language for an AS/400, no?) on an AS/400? IMS? That's for mainframes, no? Pardon me, but I'm not really familiar with IBM minis. Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Mar 21 13:53:24 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:53:24 -0400 Subject: AIM65 (was Why blinkenlights ?) Message-ID: <01C76BC8.D4E299C0@MSE_D03> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:49:13 -0700 From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Why blinkenlights ? M H Stein wrote: >> --------------- >> I don't think that's the kind of micro he meant; my AIM65s had a >> full keyboard and alphanumeric display in '79 (AND an onboard >> PRINTER!) >Did the AIM65's run any software? >The Z80 was a S-100 design, but the lack of a good >power supply was my problem. ------------------- Well, unlike the Altair, a computer that didn't run any software wouldn't have sold very well in 1979; what do you call software, and how much'll you let me expand it? They did have BASIC, Forth and PL/65 (and an assembler of course), Serial I/O and two expansion busses, but although you could connect a terminal and disk drives I think CP/M would be a bit of a challenge... wouldn't want to run a Fortune 500's accounting on it and end up like the Enron & Worldcom boys (and our very own Lord Black of Crossharbour, presently starring in Chicago ;-). But being (AC-powered) portable with a full keyboard and an integral 20 or 40 column display & printer, there were quite a few applications for them on their own (e.g. insurance agents used them on the road, later moving to the more or less functionally equivalent but smaller Panasonic HHC). They were also used a fair bit in the lab & industrial area. m From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 13:58:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:58:14 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I am just old enough to have been paid to program in FORTRAN, but I'm >> really glad I didn't have to do much of it. Besides lifting >> programming out of its primordial foundations, John Backus gave us the >> platform from which ADVENT sprang. No disrepect to Grace Hopper >> intended, but can you imagine trying to write a text adventure in >> COBOL? > > A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language Nope, real programmers write in binary. http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/tech/computers/TheHackersDictionaryofComputerJargon/chap63.html Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 21 14:01:25 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:01:25 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers subscription Message-ID: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> I credit Guy Sotomayor with the original idea, a few others chimed in as well. So I ran it by Al Kossow and this was officially blessed by him.... The plan is for me to offer subscriptions to bitsavers for a fee. The idea is that you can sign up for a subscription and pick just the specific directory trees you want, or the entire archive. You are initially sent a complete copy of all the trees you selected (or full archive) on the medium of your choice (CD, DVD, HD, etc.). From that point on - for the subscription fee - you are automatically shipped a set of updates periodically - say every month? - that keeps your own personal bitsavers archive up to date. Perhaps this automated system could also allow purchase of a "one-off" cd/dvd without a subscription containing just the files and/or directories that you tag. Why purchase a subscription? Well, for one - it keeps you from having to constantly check bitsavers for what is new and download those files. It also will hopefully reduce the bandwidth on the site for people who decide they want a full copy. It gives you a way to get all the files in a courteous manner and keep up to date. Another reason - the cost of the subscription would be just a bit higher than the cost of media. The overage above the cost of media goes to the care and feeding of the classiccmp server. That means by buying a subscription you are helping to subsidize the cost of the classiccmp hardware, bandwidth usage, etc. etc. This is much like the FreeBSD CDROM subscription if you're familiar with that. You can get the identical bits elsewhere, but buying a CD subscription is convenient and directly supports the cause. I would also point out that this in no way changes your ability to download files directly from bitsavers or any of the mirrors for free. This is merely a packaging/update service to be viewed as a donation to the cause and a convenience for those who want to stay current on bitsavers. I am going to check with the developer working on the classiccmp website to see if this (tracking the membership, what directories they want, building the burn directories, etc.) is something that will fit well into code he has already done for the new classiccmp. If it is, great. If not, then I'll ask him if he wants this task. If not, then I'll come back to the list and see if people educated in the ways of php/mysql wish to contribute time to creating the software. Of course, if no one is interested, I'll just continue making the occasional trip downtown to the datacenter and burning CD's for people at no charge. It would be nice if there was interest in this though! Jay West From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 14:03:32 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:03:32 -0400 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <D152ED68-79B9-4063-856E-77E66F76F6A9@neurotica.com> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <D152ED68-79B9-4063-856E-77E66F76F6A9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46018184.40107@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Well, there were no such things as EPROMs (or chips at all, for that > matter) on the earliest lights-and-switches machines. I think > single-stepping and debugging of very low-level stuff is much easier > with a lights-and-switches front panel. Numeric displays are nice, but > I find many keypad interfaces to be very cumbersome. The H-8 keypad is > probably one of the nicest I've seen (it seems to make the most sense > anyway) but even it isn't as clear and unambiguous as "set the switches > to the address you want, and press 'load address'". > > For today, though...blinking lights are Just Plain Cool. There have been times, though, when I've had a recent RS/6000 not booting successfully, when I would have loved to have a panel. The RS/6000 diagnostic numbers are much better than most methods, but there's nothing better than being able to examine the registers themselves. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 14:05:10 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:05:10 -0400 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <003601c76b43$2d466f00$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <001d01c76b41$42088790$6400a8c0@BILLING> <003601c76b43$2d466f00$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <460181E6.9000608@gmail.com> Julian Wolfe wrote: > IMO, lights=good, switches=bad (especially when they break on old equipment > and you have to find replacements, which is a major undertaking depending on > the machine) Switches can be extremely handy if you need to write a bootloader to boot from a tape on which the bootblocks have gotten messed up. There are other situations, of course, but that's the only one I've ever had to deal with in an emergency. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 21 14:05:36 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:05:36 +0000 Subject: Various DEC bits available in the UK, you pay shipping to wherever Message-ID: <C2273280.8E01%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Folks, My local favourite DEC reseller has the following heading for the scrapper unless someone pipes up: 8 or 9 Alpha 3000-300LX with RAM, working when pulled 10+ DEREPs VAX 3800 cabinet, no cards R400X cabinet, no disks 5+ VXT2000 x-terms, base unit only 5+ VXT2000+ x-terms, base unit only They've been stored outside for a month so they've had a good wash in the british winter, but they'll be fine once dried. You pay packing/shipping, I'm happy to box up and send to wherever, there's palletising facilities at work. Caveat is, the stuff will probably be heading to the recycler in a week's time so speak up now. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 14:11:06 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:11:06 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <46009C74.3030200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46009C74.3030200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4601834A.20701@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language >> > Ok, lets see you do it in INTERCAL. :) Or multidimensional Funge-98. 8-) INTERCAL is still procedural and one-dimensional. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 11:25:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:25:07 -0400 Subject: snail-mailing classiccmp stuff (was: Re: Hosting and Bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <00f901c76bce$0a8cc0a0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org> <45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> <46009BBF.2040502@jetnet.ab.ca> <01ac01c76b5d$bd573c90$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <46013F47.5040504@yahoo.co.uk> <00f901c76bce$0a8cc0a0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703210925m31f9b8b5tbc647728459869ec@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have done USB hard disk dumps of bitsavers for people. I'd certainly > prefer that to burning CD/DVD media :) Just send me the USB hard drive > (70gb+) and I'll send it back with bitsavers on it. That sounds like an excellent technique. Thanks for being willing to do that, Jay. I may take you up on that offer later this year when things quiet down. -ethan From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 21 14:01:40 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:01:40 -0400 Subject: Board ID? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:21:26 EDT.) <8B506205-1E8C-46D0-8A78-D48B115330B9@xlisper.com> References: <8B506205-1E8C-46D0-8A78-D48B115330B9@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200703211901.l2LJ1eIo011483@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I have a qbus board that I'd like to identify. I think it's some > sort of SCSI adapter but I don't know if it will support disks or > if it is "tape only". The board is labeled "TD Systems (c) 1987 ASSY > 210-00031". In another place on the board it says "211 00031 REV E". > It has a ROM on it labeled "Viking Q/B A4.1". Is this a Viking SCSI > adapter? Can anyone point me to a manual for it? I've already checked > Bitsavers and Manx and haven't found it. > > Also, if it is a SCSI hard disk capable adapter, does it have an > onboard boot that will work with a PDP-11? http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/info-vax/2004_654.txt Sounds like it is indeed a SCSI controller. De From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 21 14:16:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:16:36 -0400 Subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> Message-ID: <01879CC4-0EB5-412C-B3CB-8E539B540813@neurotica.com> On Mar 21, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Steve Shumaker wrote: > That style of keyboard was also used in the "Northgate" computers. > They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the market > and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate 80s. Steel > frames, virtually no flex, REAL mechanical keys, programmable > function sets... The computers have long since disappeared > (company folded many years ago) but the keyboards still show up > occasionally on e-bay. Called Omnikey and Omnikey Ultra.. I'm > still using one today. Ahhh, I've heard of the Omnikey, but I don't believe I've ever seen one in person. Perhaps I should try to find one of those. Are you sure they produced the keyboard themselves? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 21 12:22:27 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:22:27 -0700 Subject: Hosting and Bandwidth [was] ....... Message-ID: <460169D3.4000305@bitsavers.org> >> Well for me I want to know just what I can download off a bitsavers >> mirror. > Overall that's up to Al, but each mirror may have some preferences as well. I have to compose a much longer post about everything discussed in the past week while I was gone. I did want to say thank you to Jay for supporting the main bitsavers archive site, and that I support whatever he would like to do to continue hosting it. I am a believer in preservation through replication, which is why there are public mirrors of the material. More thoughts as I finish going through everything discussed while I was gone. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 14:34:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:34:12 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703211234u35049362mb8da5c37a7eb3736@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > Nope, real programmers write in binary. 01010010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01001111 01101110 00100001 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 21 14:36:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:36:07 -0700 Subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch>, <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com>, <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> Message-ID: <460126B7.1161.17A156B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2007 at 10:19, Steve Shumaker wrote: > That style of keyboard was also used in the "Northgate" > computers. They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the > market and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate > 80s. Alas, good keyboards got very hard to get after price competition in PC keyboards got to be real. At one time, Keytronics made some of the better keyboards, then moved their operation out of the US and sold out to Honeywell and marketed what amounts to looks-just-like- every-other-far-East-keyboards. I've still got a few Cherry PC keyboards, with 10 function keys on the left, like the old XT style keyboards (20 more function keys are on the top). Very reliable units. Some of the more remarkable (in terms of reliability) keyboards are from the late 60's--a sealed reed switch for each key, activated by a doughnut-shaped magnet suspended by a calibrated spring. I believe that George Risk made many of these. On eBay, I see lots of used Cherry POS keyboards with credit-card stripe readers. Are these PC compatible--and are they any good? Prices being asked for them seem to range all over the place. Chuck (typing this on a Model M; who needs a "windows" key anyway?) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 21 15:03:23 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:03:23 -0700 Subject: Crossbar and NeWS questions References: <20070321142848.OBN15873.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <46018F8C.6D59A649@cs.ubc.ca> "Brian L. Stuart" wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Scott Quinn wrote: > > > > > > (1) What is the history of the crossbar in computer architectures as a > > > mainbus replacement? > > > > I recall reading an article in Annals of the History of Computing about a > > late 60's era mainframe in which memory and multiple processors were > > connected via some sort of crossbar/matrix switching arrangement. > > I think it was a Burroughs machine but my memory could be wrong on that even. > > CMU did a parallel machine like that using PDP-11/40s. They used 16 > machines and 16 memory banks. It was called C.mmp. I think for me, > reconstructing that would be the ultimate in classic geek. > > Also, while I haven't watched all that carefully, I'm sure there are others > who have also used crossbars to route inter-processor communication. > I even messed around with that approach a little. > > BLS Not sure which way you are referring to the 11/40s/C.mmp being constructed, but to clarify a bit, perhaps I should have said execution units instead of processors. The machine I recall being described in the article was not constructed by connecting up more of an existing or off-the-shelf processor, rather the multiple execution units and crossbar matrix were inherent in the design of the one main processor. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 21 15:12:20 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:12:20 -0400 Subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?) In-Reply-To: <460126B7.1161.17A156B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> <460126B7.1161.17A156B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703211612.20511.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 March 2007 15:36, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On eBay, I see lots of used Cherry POS keyboards with credit-card > stripe readers. Are these PC compatible--and are they any good? > Prices being asked for them seem to range all over the place. Yes, they're probably just a PS/2 interface keyboard, but the ones I've used are HORRIBLE to type on.. the keys are mushy, and are difficult to push down (and don't give any physical feedback when you do push them down far enough). Purdue used those in computer labs for a few years starting when I got here ('99), and have finally gotten rid of most of them. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 21 15:25:50 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:25:50 -0500 Subject: software (actually anything classic computer related) directory Message-ID: <031001c76bf7$21bc6f40$6400a8c0@BILLING> Some mention has been made on the list with regards to a "global" list of classic computer related artifacts, be those documents (manuals), software bits, other historical ephemera, etc. The concept I've been working with is defining a standard record format for interchange amongst those that wish to participate. Think of this as something like ANSI X.12 (Electronic Data Interchange). Each site who wants to participate would (in an automated fashion) periodically (nightly?) run a program or process that takes data about their collection items and puts it into this standard record format. The format has things like document name, title, description, document type, owner site, http vs. ftp, URL, FTP address, email contact, date, key words, categories, distribution allowed, etc. For example, a program could pretty easily be created that would take all the documents on bitsavers and puts them into this standard record format. Then the source systems send this record dump (or deltas from a previous dump) to the classiccmp server. The classiccmp server takes all these records from all the various sites and puts them together into a single database internally, and also provides a seamless mechanism (http, and yes... gopher, archie?) for people to search the database or browse based on given criteria. It looks like one database. But when a user tries to pull up one of the specific entries it is actually redirected to the sponsoring systems server to get the data. This way each system can keep their classic data (jpegs, pdfs, disk images, whatever) in the format they are already using without changing anything. They just need to have something that takes their format/sources and puts it into the standard format which is then sync'd to classiccmp.org. Provisions could be made to the standard record format to address all types of media, allow some items to be listed as "present" but "unavailable" for things that can't be released due to copyright issues (but at least people would know it had been preserved). I'd be happy to start a separate mailing list to discuss this record format, and if people are interested in participating. I'd hate to chew up cctalk/cctech bandwidth discussing project design :) Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 21 15:03:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:03:19 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46018F87.5010603@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > The plan is for me to offer subscriptions to bitsavers for a fee. The > idea is that you can sign up for a subscription and pick just the > specific directory trees you want, or the entire archive. You are > initially sent a complete copy of all the trees you selected (or full > archive) on the medium of your choice (CD, DVD, HD, etc.). From that > point on - for the subscription fee - you are automatically shipped a > set of updates periodically - say every month? - that keeps your own > personal bitsavers archive up to date. In the interests of saving the planet by not wasting resources, why not let the subscribers choose when they want their next update? Just give 'em 10/12/whatever "free updates" and leave it up to them when they want them. After they're all used up, they need to renew their subscription. You'll have the subscription database already (and probably a "last dispatch date", assuming the plan isn't to try and handle every DVD burn and mail-out within the same 24 hour period!) - it shouldn't be difficult to add a counter for the number of updates each subscriber's received. > It > also will hopefully reduce the bandwidth on the site for people who > decide they want a full copy. Do many people ask for full copies (or try downloading the entire site - but let's not start that discussion again)? Given that the mirrors exist, I'm surprised people feel the need to have everything; I doubt any person has every single system for which there's a bitsavers manual :-) > The > overage above the cost of media goes to the care and feeding of the > classiccmp server. That works :-) p.s. is there any benefit in having a separate mailing list for "operational" ideas - not just to do with the classiccmp site, but things like the discussion over Dave's software repository? I'm sure there are many subscribers here who only have an interest in the physical vintage hardware / software / docs, not all the "service" type discussion that often goes on. Just a thought, anyway. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 21 15:14:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:14:04 -0500 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703211234u35049362mb8da5c37a7eb3736@mail.gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> <f4eb766f0703211234u35049362mb8da5c37a7eb3736@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4601920C.5000909@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/21/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: >> Nope, real programmers write in binary. > > 01010010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01001111 01101110 > 00100001 Possibly the most geeky post ever to reach classiccmp? :-) From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 21 14:55:57 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:55:57 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200703211956.l2LJu2cd043784@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:01:25 -0500, Jay West wrote: >I credit Guy Sotomayor with the original idea, a few others chimed in as >well. So I ran it by Al Kossow and this was officially blessed by him.... >The plan is for me to offer subscriptions to bitsavers for a fee. The idea Sounds like a great idea to me. Let me know whan you have a offer page to link to. Have you thought about joining an affilate program and marketing this idea :-) later Bob From useddec at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 15:29:40 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:29:40 -0500 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <212D2118-0A8B-47BE-8DEB-C289C2FD121D@xlisper.com> References: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> <212D2118-0A8B-47BE-8DEB-C289C2FD121D@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <624966d60703211329q21416eb4s99311a6ccc499ab5@mail.gmail.com> Will the BDV11 (M8012) work with the KDJ11-AA? I'm pretty sure the -BF will boot, as well as the various MXV-11's (which would solve the console port problem). Any flavor of DLV11 should work as a console. Selection usually depends on individual needs and backplane space. If you need any of these, feel free to contact me off list. Paul Anderson On 3/21/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > > >>>> Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF > >>>> for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff? > >>> > >>> Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU > >>> board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I > >>> have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you > >>> want. > >> > >> Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height > >> and is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the mini-computer world, > >> boot ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you > >> don't "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup). > > > > True, but it's unlikely that any system with a KDJ11-A in it didn't > > have > > some sort of boot ROM; there wasn't any front-panel that I know of for > > those machines. The -A version was typically used in OEM gear which > > had a boot-rom (or just a rom with the system's runtime code in it) on > > some other board. > > The problem is, I got the KDJ11-A board by itself and not in a > system. I do have some MXV11-A modules but I guess they can't boot an > RD53 or ESDI drive. I think I can use one for a console port though. > I guess I'll have to do that because my CPU card doesn't have one of > those either. I believe I need to disable the onboard RAM though > because the RAM on the MXV11-A isn't Q22 compatible. > From shumaker at att.net Wed Mar 21 15:33:18 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:33:18 -0800 Subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?) In-Reply-To: <01879CC4-0EB5-412C-B3CB-8E539B540813@neurotica.com> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> <01879CC4-0EB5-412C-B3CB-8E539B540813@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070321122128.019e5618@att.net> I've never uncovered who actually built them. The units have a "made in Taiwan" for Northgate label on the bottom and the usual FCC ID number. Nothing else on the outside and I've never opened one up. FWIW, there is an outfit on the web that sells something supposedly quite similar. I've never actually had hands on but have heard others rave about how it feels "just like their old northgate" http://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/menu.htm s shumaker At 11:16 AM 3/21/2007, you wrote: >On Mar 21, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Steve Shumaker wrote: >>That style of keyboard was also used in the "Northgate" computers. >>They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the market >>and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate 80s. Steel >>frames, virtually no flex, REAL mechanical keys, programmable >>function sets... The computers have long since disappeared >>(company folded many years ago) but the keyboards still show up >>occasionally on e-bay. Called Omnikey and Omnikey Ultra.. I'm >>still using one today. > > Ahhh, I've heard of the Omnikey, but I don't believe I've ever >seen one in person. Perhaps I should try to find one of those. > > Are you sure they produced the keyboard themselves? > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Mar 21 15:39:07 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:39:07 +0000 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <200703211835.l2LIXg8m034245@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703211835.l2LIXg8m034245@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <07ED5269-4E07-4808-92BA-B26CDFB54141@microspot.co.uk> > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > > On 21 Mar 2007 at 12:12, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> I used Fortran 4 on the IBM 7094 at Imperial College London. I >> remember one day the compiler reported: > > I used FORTRAN II under FMS II on the 7090 but never saw a FORTRAN IV > implementation there. It's been entirely too long ago, but, as I > recall, one punched a "B" in column 1 for boolean expressions, "D" > for double-precision and "I" for complex, as FORTRAN II still relied > on implicit typing for variables. > > One of the most diagnostic-bald versions of FORTRAN I ever used was > the "USA BASIC FORTRAN" under DOS/360. The thing couldn't have had > more than about 10 diagnostic messages, most of them single-word. One of my bosses at Marconi Avionics thought that compilers should only have one error message because as a compiler cannot find all errors (such as a mistyped number), you should not rely on it to find errors in your programs. You should only ever submit 100% correct code to the compiler. I think he worked on the Jaguar aircraft's flight program, so there is some justification in that field where a software error could cause a fast jet to take out a street or two of a city. >> I was used to syntax error messages by the dozen but this was the >> first time I had seen the compiler correct an error and run the >> job. Of >> course we are used to warnings now, but I think it was that one >> which >> got me interested enough in compilers to eventually get a job >> writing >> them. > > Pat could probably fill in details here, but Purdue for many years > used 7090/94's to run a student variant of FORTRAN called PUFFT. The > basic idea was for the compiler to 'fix" as many errors as possible > so that a program would run somehow. I believe it was described by > Saul Rosen in an ACM paper and republished in one of those > "Programming Languages Survey" books. IIRC, the 709x were also used > as I/O front ends for the CDC 6600 there, which ran Purdue's own > variant of MACE, rather than the more-or-less standard SCOPE. Greg > Mansfield was pretty proud of that. It was indeed PUFFT that I used, around 1969 when I was a schoolboy. >> If you stuck to floating point and small numbers but there were big >> problems with word length variations when using integers. > > IIRC, the 32-bit floating point word (with 4-bit normalization > granularity) of S/360 cost IBM a bunch of business in the > "scientific" world. It had one of the lowest-precision FP > representation of big iron at the time. I believe that IBM > eventually remedied this with "extended precision". Interesting. I guess that's why, after the 7094, the University of London used no(?) IBMs, just CDC and ICL machines until minis came along. >> I seem to remember that some of the people who taught me to program >> considered Fortran to be too close to the 7094 instruction set, in >> particular they said the computed goto mapped directly onto a 7094 >> instruction and >> hence considered it to be not very universal, and to support it >> would be to >> assist IBM in its domination of the computer market. > > That must have been some clever propganda on the part of someone! > But conspiracy theories have always been popular. Computed GOTOs > weren't exactly the dominant feature of most programs--and they were > implemented as simple indexed jumps for the most part--a feature > scarcely unique to IBM hardware! > > For small systems, FORTRAN was amazingly useful. The other day, I > ran across some code that I wrote for CP/M to convert between ISIS-II > and CP/M file formats--in FORTRAN. > > Compiler design has come a long way since. In the 1970's, I recall > that a co-worker pushed a PTR in front of my face that was, frankly, > quite surprising. CDC FTN for years allowed an alternative way of > expressing Hollerith constants using any arbitrary delimiter > character, so 5HCHUCK and H*CHUCK* were equivalent ways of expressing > the same constant. Most people used asterisks or the not-equal > symbol (the standard character set didn't have quotation marks), but > the compiler would allow just about anything. > > The statement in question looked something like this: > > 100 FORMAT( HX)=(1+BX ) > > Recall, that prior to FORTRAN 90, FORTRAN had no reserved words. Yes that does look weird at first sight. Probably later version of Fortran were better, but version 4 was just so restrictive, after using Algol's For..Step..Until..Do.. with expressions, I could not really go back to Fortran IV's for statements with single, simple unsigned integer constants for the start, end and step values. Roger. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Mar 21 15:31:43 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:31:43 +0000 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4601962F.2080808@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > Same here. The only "good" PS/2-interfaced keyboards I have here are > a big box of SGI "granite" units, and even they have some flex (not > much) to them. At least they have some heft, though. I've got a fairly nice Dell AT102W (aka Dell 093GDJ, and about the only good thing to come out of Dell IMO). It's crammed full of Alps microswitch key-switches, and is about the nicest keyboard I've ever had. The keys have a lovely 'snap' action; probably not quite as good as an IBM Model M, but not bad. The Quietkey is an 'updated' version with - IIRC - a 'putty feel' membrane switch matrix. The AT101W is basically the same keyboard, but with a US key layout instead of the UK key layout on the AT102W. They're quite plentiful on eBay - AT102Ws are not. IIRC they came with some of the Dell servers and high-end desktops many moons ago... Poweredge GX2 maybe? Also, FWICT SiliconGraphics / SGI sold basically the same keyboard with the same model number (AT-101 or AT-102), but in a 'granite' style. Maybe that's what you've got, Dave? -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 21 15:50:54 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: software (actually anything classic computer related) directory Message-ID: <46019AAE.8040309@bitsavers.org> > Some mention has been made on the list with regards to a "global" list of > classic computer related artifacts, be those documents (manuals), software > bits, other historical ephemera, etc. The concept I've been working with is > defining a standard record format for interchange amongst those that wish to > participate. Think of this as something like ANSI X.12 (Electronic Data > Interchange). Seth would probably be better qualified to talk about this, but there is an exchange protocol in LOCKSS that may be useful for this, though it is geared more towards electronic copies of documents, including province, access rights, etc. in a distributed content environment. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 16:51:08 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:51:08 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4601A8CC.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language > Nope, real programmers write in binary. > http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/tech/computers/TheHackersDictionaryofComputerJargon/chap63.html I like the ORIGINAL version better. > Peace... Sridhar > > . > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 17:03:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:03:11 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4601920C.5000909@yahoo.co.uk> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> <f4eb766f0703211234u35049362mb8da5c37a7eb3736@mail.gmail.com> <4601920C.5000909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4601AB9F.8090100@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> 01010010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01001111 >> 01101110 00100001 EBCD or ASCII? I wonder... > Possibly the most geeky post ever to reach classiccmp? :-) > I thought 'telneting' to classic cmp server your email would be the most geeky post. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 21 16:06:27 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:06:27 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers subscription References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46018F87.5010603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <034201c76bfc$ca720870$6400a8c0@BILLING> Jules wrote.... > In the interests of saving the planet by not wasting resources, why not > let the subscribers choose when they want their next update? Just give 'em > 10/12/whatever "free updates" and leave it up to them when they want them. > After they're all used up, they need to renew their subscription. Great idea. That way, they don't pay for updates they don't receive (if the particular tree they are tracking doesn't change much). They could even set parameters like, only send me a cd if there are more than 20 files updated, or until 6 months passes with some updates at least - whichever comes first. > Do many people ask for full copies? Given that the mirrors exist, I'm > surprised people feel the need to have everything; I doubt any person has > every single system for which there's a bitsavers manual :-) I don't have stats at hand, but yes... people do ask for full copies occasionally. And definitely there's people that occasionally download the entire site or at least major sections of it. > p.s. is there any benefit in having a separate mailing list for > "operational" ideas - not just to do with the classiccmp site, but things > like the discussion over Dave's software repository? I'm sure there are > many subscribers here who only have an interest in the physical vintage > hardware / software / docs, not all the "service" type discussion that > often goes on. Just a thought, anyway. I've been wanting to have a separate list for classiccmp policy discussion. That may keep some of the more heated discussions off the main list. If people buy into my idea for the global software/classicdata repository I'd be happy to set up another list for discussion of that record format, techniques, design discussion, etc. That all being said, it's also no big deal if someone wants the classiccmp server to host a small list for some other purpose. Fairly soon we'll need to have a discussion about the classiccmp server hardware, it's definitely time for an upgrade. Disk at the very least. I hate going through the server hardware discussion on the list, but it's probably not something that needs another separate list? I dunno. Open to ideas. Jay From doug at stillhq.com Wed Mar 21 15:53:46 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:53:46 +1100 Subject: Hex Keypad In-Reply-To: <200703211519.l2LFHsx0029875@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703211519.l2LFHsx0029875@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46019B5A.8000609@stillhq.com> On the subject of Blinken lights and toggle switches, I have had difficulties finding decent mechanical keyswitches to use for projects. Essentially, I need to make a hex keypad, with a couple of extra function keys. I know that now we would simply get a membrane rubber thing made up, but once upon a time, I would purchase 20 mechanical switches, and solder them to veroboard. Sadly, I can't find a source of these switches any more..... Same applies to ACSII keyboards - I am fully aware that I could get a PC keyboard and a microcontroller and have ASCI out - but that is 'yet another pc keyboard' Any ideas? Doug From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 21 15:53:35 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:53:35 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46019B4F.2050607@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > I credit Guy Sotomayor with the original idea, a few others chimed in as > well. So I ran it by Al Kossow and this was officially blessed by him.... > > The plan is for me to offer subscriptions to bitsavers for a fee. The > idea is that you can sign up for a subscription and pick just the > specific directory trees you want, or the entire archive. You are > initially sent a complete copy of all the trees you selected (or full > archive) on the medium of your choice (CD, DVD, HD, etc.). From that > point on - for the subscription fee - you are automatically shipped a > set of updates periodically - say every month? - that keeps your own > personal bitsavers archive up to date. Perhaps this automated system > could also allow purchase of a "one-off" cd/dvd without a subscription > containing just the files and/or directories that you tag. > Of course, if no one is interested, I'll just continue making the > occasional trip downtown to the datacenter and burning CD's for people > at no charge. It would be nice if there was interest in this though! Sign me up. I'm a firm believer that nothing's free. It may not cost *me* anything, but somebody has to pay. I hit bitsavers a time or two a month, and couldn't even guess how many hours it's saved me. I also am the kind of person that's more likely to pay for something that's given freely, if there's a way to do so. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 21 16:09:41 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:09:41 -0700 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <200703211252.49008.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200703211252.49008.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46019F15.8000307@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:43, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >>Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use an >>onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in >>the middle for then? > > > Without having one handy to look at, it's probably the FP accelerator > socket. Is it a 40-pin DIP socket? I won't be home to check the exact board model till late tomorrow, but there is a half-wide M8192 CPU with a 40-pin DIP socket for the FPA. The accelerator socket's disabled. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 17:07:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:07:35 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4601834A.20701@gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46009C74.3030200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4601834A.20701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4601ACA7.3000408@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Or multidimensional Funge-98. 8-) I refuse to talk about software with the numbers 95, 98 , 2000 or hardware with the numbers 486, 586 or 9000. My brain gets lost even with the name of some of those crazy laguages. > INTERCAL is still procedural and one-dimensional. The joke here was INTERCAL has no goto statements just COME FROM ones. > Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 17:09:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:09:58 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <07ED5269-4E07-4808-92BA-B26CDFB54141@microspot.co.uk> References: <200703211835.l2LIXg8m034245@dewey.classiccmp.org> <07ED5269-4E07-4808-92BA-B26CDFB54141@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4601AD36.2090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > Probably later version of Fortran were better, but version 4 was just > so restrictive, after using Algol's For..Step..Until..Do.. with > expressions, I could not really go back to Fortran IV's for statements > with single, simple unsigned integer constants for the start, end and > step values. But then a ISZ style loop seems to map to Fortran better. Algol loops seem to imply a AC style testing. Also Algol seems to require some sort of index register, something many machines do not have.Algol for the PDP-8 gets around this as you can not comnile subroutines. > Roger. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Mar 21 15:58:40 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:58:40 -0500 Subject: software (actually anything classic computer related) directory In-Reply-To: <031001c76bf7$21bc6f40$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <031001c76bf7$21bc6f40$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <003d01c76bfb$b4150bf0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I'd like to help though I have no idea how I'd do so at this point. It sounds like a great idea. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:26 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: software (actually anything classic computer > related) directory > > Some mention has been made on the list with regards to a > "global" list of classic computer related artifacts, be those > documents (manuals), software bits, other historical > ephemera, etc. The concept I've been working with is defining > a standard record format for interchange amongst those that > wish to participate. Think of this as something like ANSI > X.12 (Electronic Data Interchange). > > Each site who wants to participate would (in an automated > fashion) periodically (nightly?) run a program or process > that takes data about their collection items and puts it into > this standard record format. The format has things like > document name, title, description, document type, owner site, > http vs. ftp, URL, FTP address, email contact, date, key > words, categories, distribution allowed, etc. For example, a > program could pretty easily be created that would take all > the documents on bitsavers and puts them into this standard > record format. Then the source systems send this record dump > (or deltas from a previous dump) to the classiccmp server. > > The classiccmp server takes all these records from all the > various sites and puts them together into a single database > internally, and also provides a seamless mechanism (http, and > yes... gopher, archie?) for people to search the database or > browse based on given criteria. It looks like one database. > But when a user tries to pull up one of the specific entries > it is actually redirected to the sponsoring systems server to > get the data. > > This way each system can keep their classic data (jpegs, > pdfs, disk images, > whatever) in the format they are already using without > changing anything. > They just need to have something that takes their > format/sources and puts it into the standard format which is > then sync'd to classiccmp.org. > > Provisions could be made to the standard record format to > address all types of media, allow some items to be listed as > "present" but "unavailable" for things that can't be released > due to copyright issues (but at least people would know it > had been preserved). > > I'd be happy to start a separate mailing list to discuss this > record format, and if people are interested in participating. > I'd hate to chew up cctalk/cctech bandwidth discussing > project design :) > > Jay > > > > > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 21 14:30:54 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:30:54 -0400 Subject: computercollectables.blogspot.com comments welcome In-Reply-To: <01C76B53.9DFCDA80@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200703211931.l2LJV3os042277@keith.ezwind.net> WAS: Don Maslin/Archiving system software >Any thoughts yet about how to organize it? >mike In answer to mikes question... Yes and on a lot of levels ... BUT I am in full agreement with Jay that it is OT for this list and further discussion it does not belong on the cclist at this point in time. So I have place my reply and some thoughts on the subject in a seperate Blog. http://computercollectables.blogspot.com/ I invite others to come and comment on mine mutterings or create a free blog of their own, on this or any other computer, collector, collection, or collectable related subject. I like the idea that Blogs on related subjects can be cross linked using comments to form a better overall picture of the challenges involved in building everyones collection and archive management solution. Sorry Jay for the additional waste of bandwidth ;-) Please comment directly or in/on the blog NOT here on this list! Back under my rock.... Bob Bradlee From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 16:12:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:12:34 -0400 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <01879CC4-0EB5-412C-B3CB-8E539B540813@neurotica.com> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> <01879CC4-0EB5-412C-B3CB-8E539B540813@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46019FC2.8000701@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 21, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Steve Shumaker wrote: >> That style of keyboard was also used in the "Northgate" computers. >> They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the market and >> sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate 80s. Steel >> frames, virtually no flex, REAL mechanical keys, programmable function >> sets... The computers have long since disappeared (company folded >> many years ago) but the keyboards still show up occasionally on >> e-bay. Called Omnikey and Omnikey Ultra.. I'm still using one today. > > Ahhh, I've heard of the Omnikey, but I don't believe I've ever seen > one in person. Perhaps I should try to find one of those. > > Are you sure they produced the keyboard themselves? I'm pretty sure they made the keyboard, but bought the keyswitches from a supplier. (Alps?) Peace... Sridhar From feedle at feedle.net Wed Mar 21 16:17:12 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle at feedle.net) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:17:12 -0700 (MST) Subject: Desperately seeking.. terminal Message-ID: <1162.69.145.252.74.1174511832.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> I'm hoping that there is somebody on the list who can help a brother out. I need some kind of basic terminal, preferably something VT-100 compatible, but I'll take what I can get. The screen can have a little burn-in, all that is really important is that it is legible and the keyboard functions, and that I can get 9600 baud serial out of it. Oh, and there's another catch. It needs to be somewhere within an 8-hour one-way drive of eastern Montana (that means Denver, SLC, Spokane, the Dakotas, Alberta and Saskatchewan, etc), or somebody willing to pack and ship on the cheap. I'm hoping to get away with around $100 (not including gas and/or shipping) E-mail me off-list (of course). From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Mar 21 16:15:54 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:15:54 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a KDJ11-B or MXV11-B for trade Message-ID: <ED0A5309-A7E2-46BF-9CD8-15C876C977B8@xlisper.com> Does anyone on the list have a KDJ11-B CPU or an MXV11-B module for trade. if so, what are you looking for in return? Thanks, David Betz From shumaker at att.net Wed Mar 21 16:21:34 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:21:34 -0800 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070321132007.03314568@att.net> I'm a total newbie on the list but long ago found bit savers as a resource.. I'd subscribe! s shumaker At 11:01 AM 3/21/2007, you wrote: >I credit Guy Sotomayor with the original idea, a few others chimed >in as well. So I ran it by Al Kossow and this was officially blessed by him.... > >The plan is for me to offer subscriptions to bitsavers for a fee. >The idea is that you can sign up for a subscription and pick just >the specific directory trees you want, or the entire archive. You >are initially sent a complete copy of all the trees you selected (or >full archive) on the medium of your choice (CD, DVD, HD, etc.). From >that point on - for the subscription fee - you are automatically >shipped a set of updates periodically - say every month? - that >keeps your own personal bitsavers archive up to date. Perhaps this >automated system could also allow purchase of a "one-off" cd/dvd >without a subscription containing just the files and/or directories >that you tag. > >Why purchase a subscription? Well, for one - it keeps you from >having to constantly check bitsavers for what is new and download >those files. It also will hopefully reduce the bandwidth on the site >for people who decide they want a full copy. It gives you a way to >get all the files in a courteous manner and keep up to date. Another >reason - the cost of the subscription would be just a bit higher >than the cost of media. The overage above the cost of media goes to >the care and feeding of the classiccmp server. That means by buying >a subscription you are helping to subsidize the cost of the >classiccmp hardware, bandwidth usage, etc. etc. This is much like >the FreeBSD CDROM subscription if you're familiar with that. You can >get the identical bits elsewhere, but buying a CD subscription is >convenient and directly supports the cause. > >I would also point out that this in no way changes your ability to >download files directly from bitsavers or any of the mirrors for >free. This is merely a packaging/update service to be viewed as a >donation to the cause and a convenience for those who want to stay >current on bitsavers. I am going to check with the developer working >on the classiccmp website to see if this (tracking the membership, >what directories they want, building the burn directories, etc.) >is something that will fit well into code he has already done for >the new classiccmp. If it is, great. If not, then I'll ask him if he >wants this task. If not, then I'll come back to the list and see if >people educated in the ways of php/mysql wish to contribute time to >creating the software. > >Of course, if no one is interested, I'll just continue making the >occasional trip downtown to the datacenter and burning CD's for >people at no charge. It would be nice if there was interest in this though! > >Jay West > > From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Mar 21 16:21:33 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:21:33 -0500 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <46019F15.8000307@mdrconsult.com> References: <20070321154321.84329.qmail@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com><200703211252.49008.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46019F15.8000307@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <003e01c76bfe$e6ec4ea0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I'm trading him a DLV11-J which should solve his problem. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:10 PM > To: General at mdrconsult.com; Discussion at mdrconsult.com > :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:43, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > >>Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use an onboard ROM on a > >>KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in the middle for then? > > > > > > Without having one handy to look at, it's probably the FP > accelerator > > socket. Is it a 40-pin DIP socket? > > I won't be home to check the exact board model till late > tomorrow, but there is a half-wide M8192 CPU with a 40-pin > DIP socket for the FPA. > The accelerator socket's disabled. > > > Doc > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 17:20:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:20:31 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <46019B4F.2050607@mdrconsult.com> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46019B4F.2050607@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4601AFAF.5060006@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc Shipley wrote: > Sign me up. Same here. > I'm a firm believer that nothing's free. It may not cost *me* > anything, but somebody has to pay. I hit bitsavers a time or two a > month, and couldn't even guess how many hours it's saved me. I find Bitsavers useful when I hear of a classic computer other than a PDP x, a IBM 1130 and want to find out more. > I also am the kind of person that's more likely to pay for something > that's given freely, if there's a way to do so. Well my time is valuable -- no more long hours downloading. Now hours just printing the doc's. :) > Doc From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 21 16:21:52 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:21:52 -0400 Subject: software (actually anything classic computer related) directory In-Reply-To: <031001c76bf7$21bc6f40$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200703212121.l2LLLwda048579@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:25:50 -0500, Jay West wrote: >Some mention has been made on the list with regards to a "global" list of >classic computer related artifacts, be those documents (manuals), software ... >I'd be happy to start a separate mailing list to discuss this record format, >and if people are interested in participating. I'd hate to chew up >cctalk/cctech bandwidth discussing project design :) >Jay Yes most definately, include me in the this new list. I have posted your ideas ans some of mine on http://computercollectables.blogspot.com/ Was my last post on this subject was lost in moderation or maybe in the spam trap again ? Bob Bradlee From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 17:29:03 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:29:03 -0700 Subject: Hex Keypad In-Reply-To: <46019B5A.8000609@stillhq.com> References: <200703211519.l2LFHsx0029875@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46019B5A.8000609@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4601B1AF.2040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Doug Jackson wrote: > On the subject of Blinken lights and toggle switches, I have had > difficulties finding decent mechanical keyswitches to use for projects. > Essentially, I need to make a hex keypad, with a couple of extra > function keys. I know that now we would simply get a membrane rubber > thing made up, but once upon a time, I would purchase 20 mechanical > switches, and solder them to veroboard. > > Sadly, I can't find a source of these switches any more..... BG micro has a cheep hex keypad. > Same applies to ACSII keyboards - I am fully aware that I could get a PC > keyboard and a microcontroller and have ASCI out - but that is 'yet > another pc keyboard' Let me know if you find any, the last good keys around seem to be in the 1980's time frame. > Any ideas? > > Doug > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 16:28:13 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:28:13 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703211234u35049362mb8da5c37a7eb3736@mail.gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> <f4eb766f0703211234u35049362mb8da5c37a7eb3736@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4601A36D.8000302@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/21/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: >> Nope, real programmers write in binary. > > 01010010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01001111 01101110 > 00100001 01001001 01101110 01100100 01100101 01100101 01100100 00100001 Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 16:29:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:29:16 -0400 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <460126B7.1161.17A156B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch>, <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com>, <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> <460126B7.1161.17A156B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4601A3AC.2050502@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Mar 2007 at 10:19, Steve Shumaker wrote: > >> That style of keyboard was also used in the "Northgate" >> computers. They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the >> market and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate >> 80s. > > Alas, good keyboards got very hard to get after price competition in > PC keyboards got to be real. At one time, Keytronics made some of > the better keyboards, then moved their operation out of the US and > sold out to Honeywell and marketed what amounts to looks-just-like- > every-other-far-East-keyboards. http://www.pckeyboard.com/ for the Model M. Still being made. Peace... Sridhar From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 21 16:44:42 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <200703212056.l2LKtsf4038512@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444144.11816.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > >When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like > >"single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of > >simple circuits featuring a single transistor. > >(or who knows, maybe it was 101 transistor project; I think I was > >in 4th grade at the time - late '60s) Is this it?: 125 One-Transistor Projects (1970) http://tinyurl.com/2fzqhm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 21 16:40:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:40:41 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <07ED5269-4E07-4808-92BA-B26CDFB54141@microspot.co.uk> References: <200703211835.l2LIXg8m034245@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <07ED5269-4E07-4808-92BA-B26CDFB54141@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <460143E9.18626.18136183@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2007 at 20:39, Roger Holmes wrote: > > 100 FORMAT( HX)=(1+BX ) > > > > Recall, that prior to FORTRAN 90, FORTRAN had no reserved words. > > Yes that does look weird at first sight. The bigger problem is that it's absolutely ambiguous in the light of CDC FTN syntax. It can legitimately mean either a FORMAT statement with the Hollerith constant ")=)1+B" or an assignment to the HX-th element of an array called FORMAT of the value obtained by evaluating 1+BX. The PTR ended up on the "deferred" list for quite a long time as no one could think of an adequately airtight fix. Lots of work- arounds were proposed, such as "well, if the statement number is referenced in an I/O statement, then it's a FORMAT" or "if there's an array called FORMAT, then it's an assignment". Unfortunately, FORTRAN doesn't demand that FORMAT statements be referenced by an I/O statement--"orphans" are perfectly legal. It was a real puzzle. Smart*ss customers! The usual way for FORTRAN compilers to work back then was to look at the first word of a statement and attempt to parse it accordingly. If that failed, then the statement was deemed to be an expression and re-parsed. This is only one case where a vendor's language extension got it into trouble. Early on, most language standard specifications called out the minimum subset of the language that had to be implemented and remained silent on vendor extensions. Hence, you got scads of differing dialects all claiming to be "FORTRAN IV". To my knowledge, this persists in BASIC more than in any other language, ANSI X3.113 nothwithstanding. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 21 16:46:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:46:22 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4601AD36.2090700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200703211835.l2LIXg8m034245@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <07ED5269-4E07-4808-92BA-B26CDFB54141@microspot.co.uk>, <4601AD36.2090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4601453E.7309.181893B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2007 at 15:09, woodelf wrote: > But then a ISZ style loop seems to map to Fortran better. > Algol loops seem to imply a AC style testing. Also Algol > seems to require some sort of index register, something > many machines do not have.Algol for the PDP-8 gets around > this as you can not comnile subroutines. Or a BXLE or IBXLE or any number of other implementations on various mainframes. I believe that most FORTRAN IV implementations guaranteed that the DO-loop would be executed at least once, regardless of the intial values, something not shared with Algol. Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Mar 21 16:43:02 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hex Keypad In-Reply-To: <46019B5A.8000609@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <89269.46625.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Doug Jackson <doug at stillhq.com> wrote: > On the subject of Blinken lights and toggle > switches, I have had > difficulties finding decent mechanical keyswitches > to use for projects. I have had similar difficulties. I have been unable to buy new keyswitches, so have resorted to desoldering them from junked keyboards. Some older PC keyboards are constructed of individual keyswitches, as are the keyboards used in the Apple IIe. The last project I needed to make a keypad for I used parts from an Apple IIe keyboard that was badly broken and missing keys (school surplus eh.. pile..). I wouldn't scavenge parts off anything _useful_. > > Sadly, I can't find a source of these switches any > more..... Or keytops, for that matter. > Same applies to ACSII keyboards I have in the past bought surplus keyboards from a place online, but they weren't ASCII encoded - they were unencoded. I am actually using one now, I interfaced it to the keyboard encoder from a crummy Compaq USB keyboard and I use it on my Mac. Never seen ASCII keyboards for sale online like that though. -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 21 16:30:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:30:07 -0500 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4601AB9F.8090100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> <f4eb766f0703211234u35049362mb8da5c37a7eb3736@mail.gmail.com> <4601920C.5000909@yahoo.co.uk> <4601AB9F.8090100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4601A3DF.1070804@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> 01010010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01001111 >>> 01101110 00100001 > > EBCD or ASCII? I wonder... > >> Possibly the most geeky post ever to reach classiccmp? :-) > > I thought 'telneting' to classic cmp server your email would be the > most geeky post. Actually I wasn't sure if I meant Ethan's post or mine. I actually decoded the binary. It was ASCII. :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 21 16:44:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:44:52 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <034201c76bfc$ca720870$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46018F87.5010603@yahoo.co.uk> <034201c76bfc$ca720870$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4601A754.8090407@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > That way, they don't pay for updates they don't receive (if > the particular tree they are tracking doesn't change much). They could > even set parameters like, only send me a cd if there are more than 20 > files updated, or until 6 months passes with some updates at least - > whichever comes first. That works too, I guess - anything that doesn't increase the burden on whoever's admin for the system - and things like that can all be automated. > I've been wanting to have a separate list for classiccmp policy > discussion. That may keep some of the more heated discussions off the > main list. If people buy into my idea for the global > software/classicdata repository I'd be happy to set up another list for > discussion of that record format, techniques, design discussion, etc. Well that works for me (and count me in as a list member). > That all being said, it's also no big deal if someone wants the > classiccmp server to host a small list for some other purpose. You know, I've been meaning to ask - do you plan to ever offer mailing list services for vintage computing matters via on classiccmp.org (in a similar way to what you already do with web space)? Of course I have no idea what the security implications would be :-) It was just a general thought as another potential service for classiccmp.org one day. (I joined a Yahoo-hosted list for one manufacturer's vintage hardware recently, and my immediate thought was that boy, does yahoo suck for such things!) > Fairly soon we'll need to have a discussion about the classiccmp server > hardware, it's definitely time for an upgrade. Disk at the very least. I > hate going through the server hardware discussion on the list, but it's > probably not something that needs another separate list? I dunno. Open > to ideas. Not sure. Depends on whether you've received any negative feedback in the past when there have been server discussions on here. Maybe people just silently grit their teeth though ;) cheers J. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 18:12:40 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:12:40 -0700 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <444144.11816.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <444144.11816.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4601BBE8.4030105@jetnet.ab.ca> William Blair wrote: > Is this it?: TINY URL: > 125 One-Transistor Projects (1970) > http://tinyurl.com/2fzqhm BIG URL: http://www.somerset.net/arm/fm_only_one_transistor_radio.html http://www.somerset.net/arm/fm_only_lowtech.html From jvdg at sparcpark.net Wed Mar 21 16:52:11 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:52:11 +0100 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <460081A2.3090900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <C227679B.39216%jvdg@sparcpark.net> On 3/21/07 1:51 AM, woodelf wrote: > It is a 'text adventure' to write anything in COBOL. Since just over a year, I've gone back to writing COBOL (and a little bit of C here and there, to keep me sane, for the "complicated" stuff) for a living. I'm loving every minute of it. Yeah, it's wordy, but it has a certain "je ne sais quoi" that keeps it fun, for me at least. I did some web development in Java and PHP, before, and when doing that I often found myself thinking, "this would be so much easier to do in COBOL." Of course, nowadays I find myself thinking, "this could be done so much more elegantly in C/Java/whatever," but still. You can't beat a big fat IBM zSeries when it comes to shifting gargantuan amounts of data around. It remains a joy to see company after company try to ditch the dinosaurs and move it all to Windows servers, only to fail miserably and come crawling back to the mainframe. Anyone know of a COBOL compiler for Mac OS X? :-P ,xtG .tsooJ -- Real programmers always mix up Halloween and Christmas, because Oct 31 == Dec 25 -- Joost van de Griek <http://www.jvdg.net/> From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 16:31:08 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:31:08 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4601920C.5000909@yahoo.co.uk> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> <f4eb766f0703211234u35049362mb8da5c37a7eb3736@mail.gmail.com> <4601920C.5000909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4601A41C.8070303@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 3/21/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: >>> Nope, real programmers write in binary. >> >> 01010010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01001111 >> 01101110 00100001 > > Possibly the most geeky post ever to reach classiccmp? :-) Possibly. If I didn't have to look up the codes, does it mean I'm an incurable geek? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 16:37:21 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:37:21 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4601A8CC.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46018046.6050406@gmail.com> <4601A8CC.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4601A591.9090003@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language > >> Nope, real programmers write in binary. >> http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/tech/computers/TheHackersDictionaryofComputerJargon/chap63.html > > > I like the ORIGINAL version better. The author has written that he likes the "free verse" version better. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 16:39:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:39:00 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4601ACA7.3000408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1053@cpexchange.olf.com> <f4eb766f0703200732q8b96145u7853c6b66c4c376e@mail.gmail.com> <20070320150134.Y4784@shell.lmi.net> <46009C74.3030200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4601834A.20701@gmail.com> <4601ACA7.3000408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4601A5F4.6080303@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: >> Or multidimensional Funge-98. 8-) > > I refuse to talk about software with the numbers 95, 98 , 2000 > or hardware with the numbers 486, 586 or 9000. Funge-98 isn't software. It's a specification standard for a language. > My brain gets lost even with the name of some of those > crazy laguages. > >> INTERCAL is still procedural and one-dimensional. > > The joke here was INTERCAL has no goto statements > just COME FROM ones. I know INTERCAL like the back of my hand. 8-) I was just making an observation that INTERCAL is not different enough from FORTRAN to make it particularly difficult to write FORTRAN-style code in INTERCAL. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 21 16:34:24 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: software (actually anything classic computer related) directory In-Reply-To: <46019AAE.8040309@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Mar 21, 2007 01:50:54 PM Message-ID: <200703212134.l2LLYO8K004052@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Some mention has been made on the list with regards to a "global" list of > > classic computer related artifacts, be those documents (manuals), software > > bits, other historical ephemera, etc. The concept I've been working with is > > defining a standard record format for interchange amongst those that wish to > > participate. Think of this as something like ANSI X.12 (Electronic Data > > Interchange). > > Seth would probably be better qualified to talk about this, but there is an > exchange protocol in LOCKSS that may be useful for this, though it is geared > more towards electronic copies of documents, including province, access > rights, etc. in a distributed content environment. I should think that the Library of Congress MARC database format, which seems to be an international standard would be able to handle this. There are lots of tools for manipulating MARC data, including programming libraries for various languages (I use Perl). Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 17:35:11 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:35:11 -0500 Subject: Hex Keypad In-Reply-To: <46019B5A.8000609@stillhq.com> References: <200703211519.l2LFHsx0029875@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46019B5A.8000609@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703211535p13309b1bo26ec9b212de84a4b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Doug Jackson <doug at stillhq.com> wrote: > On the subject of Blinken lights and toggle switches, I have had > difficulties finding decent mechanical keyswitches to use for projects. > > Essentially, I need to make a hex keypad, with a couple of extra > function keys. I know that now we would simply get a membrane rubber > thing made up, but once upon a time, I would purchase 20 mechanical > switches, and solder them to veroboard. The last time I needed an odd keyboard, it was for a 5x5 matrix to test my MatrixOrbital serially-attached 20x4 text VFD input circuit. I took a bit of bare protoboard and populated it with bare pushbutton switches I'd harvested out of clock radios and broken TV sets. The buttons aren't expensive in and of themselves, but I wasn't able to receive shipments for several more months and didn't want to wait for the next mail plane. I think it took me a couple of hours to wire it all together and up to a 10-pin molex header to cable over to the display. I would rather have used veroboard - it would have taken much less than an hour. Fortunately, I had about 30 switches on hand. More recently, I picked up some IBM leased-line modem front-panels specifically because they had a hex keypad with double-shot keytops with the hex digits in them. One place I'd use them is with an 1802 and a 74C923 matrix scanner. Dunno where you'd find them as components these days, though. I've been looking for hex keypads at hamfests for years and only recently spotted these. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 17:37:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:37:00 -0500 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <624966d60703211329q21416eb4s99311a6ccc499ab5@mail.gmail.com> References: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> <212D2118-0A8B-47BE-8DEB-C289C2FD121D@xlisper.com> <624966d60703211329q21416eb4s99311a6ccc499ab5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703211537s375c7b2cy860bd0a5fb45adb8@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote: > Will the BDV11 (M8012) work with the KDJ11-AA? I think the BDV-11 is 18-bit-addressing only. It works fine with a KDF11-A (11/23) -ethan From geneb at simpits.com Wed Mar 21 17:32:48 2007 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:32:48 -0700 Subject: snail-mailing classiccmp stuff In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703210925m31f9b8b5tbc647728459869ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <200703202004.l2KK4TNJ070698@keith.ezwind.net> <00f201c76b2f$fa6b27f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46004C5F.2010107@oldskool.org> <45FFF240.25930.12EC6234@cclist.sydex.com> <46009BBF.2040502@jetnet.ab.ca> <01ac01c76b5d$bd573c90$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <46013F47.5040504@yahoo.co.uk> <00f901c76bce$0a8cc0a0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <f4eb766f0703210925m31f9b8b5tbc647728459869ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4601B290.5020501@simpits.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/21/07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> I have done USB hard disk dumps of bitsavers for people. I'd certainly >> prefer that to burning CD/DVD media :) Just send me the USB hard drive >> (70gb+) and I'll send it back with bitsavers on it. > > That sounds like an excellent technique. Thanks for being willing to > do that, Jay. I may take you up on that offer later this year when > things quiet down. Sure beats a station wagon full of 2400' 9 track tapes. :) g. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Mar 21 17:36:03 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:36:03 -0700 Subject: Desperately seeking.. terminal In-Reply-To: <1162.69.145.252.74.1174511832.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> References: <1162.69.145.252.74.1174511832.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: <200703211536.03474.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 21 March 2007 14:17, feedle at feedle.net wrote: > I'm hoping that there is somebody on the list who can help a brother out. > > I need some kind of basic terminal, preferably something VT-100 > compatible, but I'll take what I can get. The screen can have a little > burn-in, all that is really important is that it is legible and the > keyboard functions, and that I can get 9600 baud serial out of it. > > Oh, and there's another catch. It needs to be somewhere within an 8-hour > one-way drive of eastern Montana (that means Denver, SLC, Spokane, the > Dakotas, Alberta and Saskatchewan, etc), or somebody willing to pack and > ship on the cheap. > > I'm hoping to get away with around $100 (not including gas and/or shipping) Try Sellam's "Vintage Computer Marketplace". I've picked up several nice terminala there for very modest prices. With shipping they should be well under $100. http://vintagecomputermarketplace.com Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bob at jfcl.com Wed Mar 21 17:59:49 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:59:49 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <001c01c76c0c$a3534820$1401010a@Rhyme> > I credit Guy Sotomayor with the original idea, a few others chimed in as > well. So I ran it by Al Kossow and this was officially blessed by him.... > > The plan is for me to offer subscriptions to bitsavers for a fee. I'll sign up - I use Bitsavers all the time, and it's certainly worth it. Bob Armstrong From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 21 18:10:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:10:20 -0500 Subject: software (actually anything classic computer related) directory References: <200703212134.l2LLYO8K004052@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <017801c76c0e$196ffca0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Zane wrote... > I should think that the Library of Congress MARC database format, which > seems to be an international standard would be able to handle this. There > are lots of tools for manipulating MARC data, including programming > libraries for various languages (I use Perl). I just skimmed some basic information about it. It would SEEM to me (a total neophyte at MARC, hadn't heard of it till you mentioned it) that MARC is pretty complex, much moreso than is needed for this particular project. More to the point, I can't seem to get my brain around if it is really suited to things other than books. It seems to focus on bibliographic information and such which may not translate well to paper tapes, disk images, manuals, images, etc. If I'm being too dense to see how it applies (quite possible) can you point me to more specific docs that might help me? I was thinking of something specific and lightweight as to record design? Jay From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Wed Mar 21 19:11:36 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:11:36 -0500 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 30 Message-ID: <000801c76c16$a8431f40$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Another machine for whoever wants it. It's an IBM PS/2 Model 30, complete with DOS and 20Meg hard drive. I powered up the machine and was greeted with a classic DOS menu showing games and WordPerfect 5.1 available to use. This machine is in excellent condition, been stored inside. Dan @ Butler, PA 16001 From feedle at feedle.net Wed Mar 21 18:18:21 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle at feedle.net) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:18:21 -0700 (MST) Subject: Desperately seeking.. terminal In-Reply-To: <200703211536.03474.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <1162.69.145.252.74.1174511832.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> <200703211536.03474.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <2901.69.145.252.74.1174519101.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> > Try Sellam's "Vintage Computer Marketplace". I've picked up several nice > terminala there for very modest prices. With shipping they should be well > under $100. I'd love to, unfortunately I don't have an account, and it takes three days to get it verified (according to the site). There were a couple of terminals up there.. if those Vintage Computer Marketplace users are on this list and would like to contact me privately at this address, I'd appreciate it. No, Dave: I don't want the ADDS terminal with no keyboard *chuckle*. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 17:55:22 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:55:22 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <C227679B.39216%jvdg@sparcpark.net> References: <C227679B.39216%jvdg@sparcpark.net> Message-ID: <4601B7DA.2090200@gmail.com> Joost van de Griek wrote: > Anyone know of a COBOL compiler for Mac OS X? :-P You are a sick, sick puppy. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Wed Mar 21 19:23:06 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:23:06 -0500 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 25 Message-ID: <001801c76c18$42f64840$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Still cleaning out... up for relocation: 1 IBM PS/2 Model 25, completely functional. Boots to DOS, has WordPerfect 5.1, 640K ram, 20Meg hard drive. What a head trip waiting for it to boot and then listening to the HD access, retro.. Dan @ Butler, PA From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Mar 21 10:24:42 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:24:42 -0700 Subject: MSC/Xebec HD controller "geekpron" pix available Message-ID: <46014E3A.8040000@garlic.com> I dug deep into the catacombs this past weekend and discovered some interesting ancient relics. Among them I found sound remnants of two Microcomputer Systems Corp/Xebec hard disk controllers that were recently mentioned and took some close-up shots of them. One is a single-board ST506 disk controller with GPIB interface, PCB assy# 104506 Rev 02, without the 8048 and EPROM. Front and back shots, JPEGs of 380 to 309Kb each. Much better resolution than the manuals show: Can see part numbers on most IC's, see where jumpers go and read color bands on resistors and chokes. Shot in daytime shade, no flash to reduce reflections and glare. Contrast is a bit low. The other is a 3 board assembly that might be a SASI controller with GPIB interface, sans 8048, EPROM and 9914. There are shots of front and back of each of the three boards and a shot of the three assembled. JPEGs of 360 to 380Kb each. Shot in daytime shade, no flash to reduce reflections and glare. I suspect that someone might find them useful or at least interesting to look at but I have no place to put them at the moment. If someone is interested in them, please do let me know. It would probably be best to ftp them to you, as I doubt they are small enough for mail. -- jd If you keep anything long enough, you can throw it away. From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Mar 21 09:37:43 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:37:43 -0700 Subject: Why blinkenlights ? In-Reply-To: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <46014337.6010203@garlic.com> Jos Dreesen wrote: > I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008 > system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches ) > seem so attractive ? > Direct access to the memory and CPU without any interceding translation? > It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... > > It was the simplest and best known. And it was easy to adapt to and use. And it was easy to debug or modify. > So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? > Mainframe legacy (habit?). And simple. And inexpensive. And cool. > a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable, > and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the > monitor program) that expensive ? > EPROMS did not exist (or were very unavailable) in the beginning and then were far more expensive than a handful of switches and lights. And specialty keyboards like those on the H8 also did not exist "In The Beginning" and they required additional interface circuitry. 7-segment LED's were also very expensive--once they were invented and other display devices were cumbersome, expensive or required additional circuitry. But I think that fuse PROMs were used before EPROM's for loading bootstraps. Programming (E)PROMs was expensive, above and beyond their high prices, and took time. And one had to beware of the rip-off programmers that took money for doing nothing, burning the wrong code, damaging the device, taking your new device and giving you their broken one, keeping the device and your money, or not burning it at all. Programming gear was very expensive, well out of hobby range. (E)PROMs were more valuable than gold or diamonds when they first came out and less forgiving of errors. (In the case of PROMs, mistakes were permanent .) Panel switches allowed one to fix mistakes more or less instantly for free. PROMS, you tossed them. EPROMSs, you sent them back to figure out whether they broke, were programmed wrong or the program you provided was wrong then paid to reprogram them and waited. The first micros use incandescent lamps such as "grain-o-wheats" in panel inserts. There were lamps designed specifically for use in computer panels and were common in minis. $50 would more than cover the switches and lamps for a front panel, IIRC. Far less pricey than building a binary-7seg converter for incandescent or a nixie driver at the time. There were indicators and single-digit displays available as well but they were expensive. More expensive than 32 or so single lamps or LEDs. Besides, they wouldn't look as cool. Data General took the switches and lamps off their Nova front panels and put on just a three-position rocker or paddle switch and booted from PROM. Looked desolate and naked. Not at all like a Real Computer. And if it was actually running--well it wasn't telling; only if there was output could you tell. That's when someone else invented boot prompts & messages. -- jd Comparing information and knowledge is like asking whether the fatness of a pig is more or less green than the designated hitter rule." -- David Guaspari From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 18:35:18 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:35:18 -0400 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 25 In-Reply-To: <001801c76c18$42f64840$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <001801c76c18$42f64840$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <4601C136.1050005@gmail.com> Dan Snyder wrote: > Still cleaning out... up for relocation: 1 IBM PS/2 Model 25, completely functional. > Boots to DOS, has WordPerfect 5.1, 640K ram, 20Meg hard drive. What a head trip > waiting for it to boot and then listening to the HD access, retro.. 8086 or 80286? Peace... Sridhar From steerex at mindspring.com Wed Mar 21 18:13:03 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:13:03 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers subscription References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <002a01c76c0e$7a414bb0$0701a8c0@win2000> This sounds OK to me. I am in a rural (hillybilly) area and am stuck with a slow dialup connection. So, downloading *large* files and directory trees has never really been an option. In fact, there have been several times I have pondered asking for a CD of bitsavers. A plan like this could be a real godsend for someone like me. I'm certainly not opposed to paying a duplication / handling fee for the stuff I want. The only problem is: I don't know what trees I might want tomorrow... Would this plan impose restrictions on surfing / downloading docs from bitsavers for casual users or subscribers that want files other than their subscriptions? While I'm here, I want offer my sincerest thanks to both you and Al for the services you provide. See ya, SteveRob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 2:01 PM Subject: Bitsavers subscription > I credit Guy Sotomayor with the original idea, a few others chimed in as > well. So I ran it by Al Kossow and this was officially blessed by him.... > > The plan is for me to offer subscriptions to bitsavers for a fee. The idea > is that you can sign up for a subscription and pick just the specific > directory trees you want, or the entire archive. You are initially sent a > complete copy of all the trees you selected (or full archive) on the medium > of your choice (CD, DVD, HD, etc.). From that point on - for the > subscription fee - you are automatically shipped a set of updates > periodically - say every month? - that keeps your own personal bitsavers > archive up to date. Perhaps this automated system could also allow purchase > of a "one-off" cd/dvd without a subscription containing just the files > and/or directories that you tag. > > Why purchase a subscription? Well, for one - it keeps you from having to > constantly check bitsavers for what is new and download those files. It also > will hopefully reduce the bandwidth on the site for people who decide they > want a full copy. It gives you a way to get all the files in a courteous > manner and keep up to date. Another reason - the cost of the subscription > would be just a bit higher than the cost of media. The overage above the > cost of media goes to the care and feeding of the classiccmp server. That > means by buying a subscription you are helping to subsidize the cost of the > classiccmp hardware, bandwidth usage, etc. etc. This is much like the > FreeBSD CDROM subscription if you're familiar with that. You can get the > identical bits elsewhere, but buying a CD subscription is convenient and > directly supports the cause. > > I would also point out that this in no way changes your ability to download > files directly from bitsavers or any of the mirrors for free. This is merely > a packaging/update service to be viewed as a donation to the cause and a > convenience for those who want to stay current on bitsavers. I am going to > check with the developer working on the classiccmp website to see if this > (tracking the membership, what directories they want, building the burn > directories, etc.) is something that will fit well into code he has already > done for the new classiccmp. If it is, great. If not, then I'll ask him if > he wants this task. If not, then I'll come back to the list and see if > people educated in the ways of php/mysql wish to contribute time to creating > the software. > > Of course, if no one is interested, I'll just continue making the occasional > trip downtown to the datacenter and burning CD's for people at no charge. It > would be nice if there was interest in this though! > > Jay West > > > From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Mar 21 19:18:09 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:18:09 -0400 Subject: Hex Keypad Message-ID: <01C76BF8.ECC148E0@MSE_D03> -----------Original Message: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:53:46 +1100 From: Doug Jackson <doug at stillhq.com> Subject: Hex Keypad On the subject of Blinken lights and toggle switches, I have had difficulties finding decent mechanical keyswitches to use for projects. Essentially, I need to make a hex keypad, with a couple of extra function keys. I know that now we would simply get a membrane rubber thing made up, but once upon a time, I would purchase 20 mechanical switches, and solder them to veroboard. Sadly, I can't find a source of these switches any more..... Same applies to ACSII keyboards - I am fully aware that I could get a PC keyboard and a microcontroller and have ASCI out - but that is 'yet another pc keyboard' Any ideas? Doug --------------Reply; Let me know off-list if you can't find what you need; I've got several boxes full of old keyboards etc. (including an APL keyboard, although I can't recall what that's from ). mike From jclang at notms.net Wed Mar 21 19:46:29 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:46:29 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703211537s375c7b2cy860bd0a5fb45adb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> <212D2118-0A8B-47BE-8DEB-C289C2FD121D@xlisper.com> <624966d60703211329q21416eb4s99311a6ccc499ab5@mail.gmail.com> <f4eb766f0703211537s375c7b2cy860bd0a5fb45adb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4601D1E5.3070308@notms.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/21/07, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Will the BDV11 (M8012) work with the KDJ11-AA? > > > I think the BDV-11 is 18-bit-addressing only. It works fine with a > KDF11-A (11/23) > > -ethan > It uses BBS7 as part of its addressing logic so will work correctly with a J11. You should do the EC0 to terminate BDAL18,19,20,21 The extra termination resistors are already on the BDV11 so it's only 4 jumpers. I'm using a BDV11 in my Q-22 system. joe lang From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 21 19:53:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:53:56 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <002a01c76c0e$7a414bb0$0701a8c0@win2000> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING>, <002a01c76c0e$7a414bb0$0701a8c0@win2000> Message-ID: <46017134.8750.18C44AC6@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2007 at 18:13, Steve Robertson wrote: > I am in a rural (hillybilly) area and am stuck with a slow dialup > connection. You don't have to be in a hillbilly area to have no alternative to dialup (except perhaps satellite). Broadband coverage is still very spotty outside of major urban areas in the USA. I suspect that Canada's doing better on that score. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 20:48:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:48:16 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <002a01c76c0e$7a414bb0$0701a8c0@win2000> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <002a01c76c0e$7a414bb0$0701a8c0@win2000> Message-ID: <4601E060.1050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Steve Robertson wrote: > This sounds OK to me. > I am in a rural (hillybilly) area and am stuck with a slow dialup > connection. So, downloading *large* files and directory trees has never > really been an option. In fact, there have been several times I have > pondered asking for a CD of bitsavers. A plan like this could be a real > godsend for someone like me. I got a DVD reader (1) and found where to get replacement toner for my laser printer,I plan to take it all. (1) Everybody nowdays but me seem to have a DVD writer on their computer. Doing backups is less promoted than burning pirated Japanese Anime or music downloads. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 20:53:30 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:53:30 -0700 Subject: Hex Keypad - APL hardware In-Reply-To: <01C76BF8.ECC148E0@MSE_D03> References: <01C76BF8.ECC148E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4601E19A.4020402@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > Let me know off-list if you can't find what you need; I've got several boxes > full of old keyboards etc. (including an APL keyboard, although I can't > recall what that's from ). So how does the APL character work on new machines? From what I remember is that originally APL over-struck a hard copy to get the fancy characters. I always admired APL for being a early write only language - you can never figure what you wrote. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 21 19:07:28 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:07:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <460056EF.18015.1475AD24@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 20, 7 09:49:35 pm Message-ID: <m1HUAq3-000J0gC@p850ug1> > Good on ya, Brad! I built my first receiver with my dad--using a I still haev the first radio I built -- 35 years ago, alas it wsa transistorised . It was the well-known 'Ladybird book' design, using an OC45 as a regenrative detector and a couple of OC71s as audio stages. > 1G4GT, back when one could still buy "B" batteries. Many many years These days, you can get 9V (PP3, 006P, 6F22, whatever you call them) batteries very cheaply in the 'Everything's a pound' shops (I assume you have similar shops that sell all sorts of things for a dollar a time). 5 to 10 of those in series will work as B battery, of couse. Personally, I'd use a mains supply. a 30V transformer (15-0-15, ignoring the centre tape or a pair of 15V windings in series) feeding a voltage doubler rectifier (2 diodes, 2 capacitors) will give about 85V, ideal for most 'battery' valve circuits. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 21 19:34:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:34:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4601ACA7.3000408@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 21, 7 03:07:35 pm Message-ID: <m1HUBGb-000J12C@p850ug1> > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > Or multidimensional Funge-98. 8-) > > I refuse to talk about software with the numbers 95, 98 , 2000 > or hardware with the numbers 486, 586 or 9000. I am wondering why you detest the HP900/200 machines. I've always founf them to be well-made 68K boxes from the early 80's that have decent 'laboratory' I/O (GPIO, BCD, HPIB, ADC, etc interfaces, either built-in or aas DIO cards) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 21 19:17:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:17:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Mar 21, 7 12:12:38 pm Message-ID: <m1HUAzu-000J11C@p850ug1> > > Did any computer built after 1960 NOT have a FORTRAN implementation? > > Yes, my ICT1301 (155+ built from 1962 to 1965) had no Fortran compiler. I've not seen a Fortran compiler for any of the following : HP9830 (I claim this is a computer, it ran BASIC from ROM) Philips P850 (maximum 2K words of core, I believe larger P800 series machines did have a Fortran compiler available) HP9825, 9831, 9845, 9835 series HP80 series. Just about all the pocekt computers (Sharp, Casio, HP, etc) What abotu the IBM 5100? And for that matter the Commodore PET (I know the SuperPET had such a compiler), the C64, etc. And the Sinclair/Amstrad machines (ZX*0, ZX81, Spectrums). And the Oric [...] > I seem to remember that some of the people who taught me to program > considered Fortran to be too close to the 7094 instruction set, in > particular > they said the computed goto mapped directly onto a 7094 instruction and > hence considered it to be not very universal, and to support it would > be to > assist IBM in its domination of the computer market. THe story I heard was that as computer time was so expensive back then (while human programmer time was relatively cheap), had the Fortran compiler not gernerated code that was as efficient as a reasonable programmer's hand-genearted code then nobody would use Fortran. Making the Fortran language clsoe to the target machine's instruction set would certainly make it wasier for a relatively simple compiler to generate efficient code. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Mar 21 19:51:25 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:51:25 +0000 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703211537s375c7b2cy860bd0a5fb45adb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> <212D2118-0A8B-47BE-8DEB-C289C2FD121D@xlisper.com> <624966d60703211329q21416eb4s99311a6ccc499ab5@mail.gmail.com> <f4eb766f0703211537s375c7b2cy860bd0a5fb45adb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4601D30D.8030406@dunnington.plus.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/21/07, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote: >> Will the BDV11 (M8012) work with the KDJ11-AA? > > I think the BDV-11 is 18-bit-addressing only. It works fine with a > KDF11-A (11/23) (A KDF11 is 22-bit, if it has the MMU, except for Rev.A KDF11-A.) Everything on a BDV11 is addressed as part of the I/O page, so the question of whether it's 16/18/22-bit addressing is irrelevant. However, the original version only had termination for BDAL0...17, although there's an FCO to connect the traces for the extra 4 bits. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jclang at notms.net Wed Mar 21 20:04:09 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:04:09 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4601D609.6060800@notms.net> Jay West wrote: > I credit Guy Sotomayor with the original idea, a few others chimed in > as well. So I ran it by Al Kossow and this was officially blessed by > him.... > > The plan is for me to offer subscriptions to bitsavers for a fee. > Original post cut out... I like it! I suspect I'm like many on this list. I freely admit to having the "pack-rat" gene. I would suck down every bit on bitsavers,except it doesn't seem fair to the guy paying the bill. This allows me to satisfy my lust for bits and provide fairness at the same time. Everybody wins. joe lang From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 21 20:10:49 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:10:49 -0400 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <4601A3AC.2050502@gmail.com> References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> <460126B7.1161.17A156B8@cclist.sydex.com> <4601A3AC.2050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070322011049.GA31415@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 05:29:16PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 21 Mar 2007 at 10:19, Steve Shumaker wrote: > > > >>That style of keyboard was also used in the "Northgate" > >>computers. They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the > >>market and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate > >>80s. > > > >Alas, good keyboards got very hard to get after price competition in > >PC keyboards got to be real. At one time, Keytronics made some of > >the better keyboards, then moved their operation out of the US and > >sold out to Honeywell and marketed what amounts to looks-just-like- > >every-other-far-East-keyboards. > > http://www.pckeyboard.com/ for the Model M. Still being made. I've never found a good reason to buy a new one. The old ones seemingly more plentiful than AOL CDs, and they hardly ever break (until you spill some unfortunate liquid into them, at least. :) A friend and I have taken a hammer to one before, and it was still working just fine after we put the keycaps back on... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 21 20:19:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:19:20 -0500 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <4601D609.6060800@notms.net> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <4601D609.6060800@notms.net> Message-ID: <4601D998.3090108@yahoo.co.uk> joe lang wrote: > I suspect I'm like many on this list. I freely admit to having the > "pack-rat" gene. I badly need to unpack my rats :( Major clear-out planned in the coming months, I think! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 21 20:22:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:22:19 -0700 Subject: Source for 1Mx1 DIP DRAM Message-ID: <4601DA4B.9070903@bitsavers.org> > I'm looking for (32) 1Mx1 120ns DRAM chips to populate an Amiga memory > board. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140067553378 they are 100 ns From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 20:26:09 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:26:09 -0500 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <4601D1E5.3070308@notms.net> References: <7453C748-CE05-40CB-A98A-BAAD4F7C554A@xlisper.com> <20070321143520.74116.qmail@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <f4eb766f0703210833t1c32387arb46025b91bc43ccf@mail.gmail.com> <200703211256.07667.pat@computer-refuge.org> <212D2118-0A8B-47BE-8DEB-C289C2FD121D@xlisper.com> <624966d60703211329q21416eb4s99311a6ccc499ab5@mail.gmail.com> <f4eb766f0703211537s375c7b2cy860bd0a5fb45adb8@mail.gmail.com> <4601D1E5.3070308@notms.net> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703211826g2d0a88b4kd0afa96e1f31e144@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, joe lang <jclang at notms.net> wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I think the BDV-11 is 18-bit-addressing only. It works fine with a > > KDF11-A (11/23) > > It uses BBS7 as part of its addressing logic so will work correctly with > a J11. You should do the EC0 to terminate BDAL18,19,20,21 The > extra termination resistors are already on the BDV11 so it's only 4 jumpers. > > I'm using a BDV11 in my Q-22 system. Good to know. I'll probably ECO my BDV-11s the next time I tear down one of my Qbus systems. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 21 21:28:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:28:29 -0700 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <m1HUAq3-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <m1HUAq3-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4601E9CD.6010608@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > These days, you can get 9V (PP3, 006P, 6F22, whatever you call them) > batteries very cheaply in the 'Everything's a pound' shops (I assume you > have similar shops that sell all sorts of things for a dollar a time). 5 > to 10 of those in series will work as B battery, of couse. Well you can still buy a B battery here on this side of the pond. http://www.tubesandmore.com/ > Personally, I'd use a mains supply. a 30V transformer (15-0-15, ignoring > the centre tape or a pair of 15V windings in series) feeding a voltage > doubler rectifier (2 diodes, 2 capacitors) will give about 85V, ideal for > most 'battery' valve circuits. They also sell a power pack kit too for small radios. I suspect if you dig around over there you can scounge up a better power supply, for the simple reason parts are whole lot cheaper now than in one's youth. > -tony From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Mar 21 20:35:36 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:35:36 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <46018F87.5010603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46018F87.5010603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <89D139E5-C7B7-424B-880B-319C8714BE59@colourfull.com> On Mar 21, 2007, at 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Do many people ask for full copies (or try downloading the entire > site - but let's not start that discussion again)? Given that the > mirrors exist, I'm surprised people feel the need to have > everything; I doubt any person has every single system for which > there's a bitsavers manual :-) > I wanted to chime in on this point. I would love to have a complete copy of Bitsavers. I deal with quite a number of systems, both in my collection and in lots of different situations, and it would definitely be in my favor to have the Bitsaver resources at my fingertips. I don't always have access to a highspeed connection in a garage or storage unit. So, that being said, I would definitely like to be a subscriber to a Bitsavers DVD/CD service. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 21 20:41:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:41:53 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <m1HUAzu-000J11C@p850ug1> References: <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Mar 21, 7 12:12:38 pm, <m1HUAzu-000J11C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Mar 2007 at 0:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Did any computer built after 1960 NOT have a FORTRAN implementation? > > > > Yes, my ICT1301 (155+ built from 1962 to 1965) had no Fortran compiler. > > I've not seen a Fortran compiler for any of the following : > > HP9830 (I claim this is a computer, it ran BASIC from ROM) > > Philips P850 (maximum 2K words of core, I believe larger P800 series > machines did have a Fortran compiler available) > > HP9825, 9831, 9845, 9835 series > HP80 series. > > Just about all the pocekt computers (Sharp, Casio, HP, etc) > > What abotu the IBM 5100? And for that matter the Commodore PET (I know > the SuperPET had such a compiler), the C64, etc. And the Sinclair/Amstrad > machines (ZX*0, ZX81, Spectrums). And the Oric How many of the above would run *any* type of compile-to-machine- language HLL compiler? Most of the BASICs were tokenized and interpreted. A few of those that you've cited simply didn't have the resources for it. But maybe not--even the lowly IBM 1620 with 20K digits (not bytes--a character took 2 digits) of core and no disk drive would compile FORTRAN. That's pretty remarkable when you consider that a 1620 instruction is 12 digits long--and the bottom half-K or so was dedicated to storing arithmetic lookup tables (the 1620 Cadet couldn't even add two numbers without the tables first being loaded). The card reader-punch was used as intermediate storage--you read in pass 1 of the compiler, then your program, which caused a new card to be punched for every statement. You then read in the deck for pass 2, followed by your program and an executable object deck was punched (and a listing was made on the printer). AFAIK, the Cadet equipped with paper tape instead of cards could do the same thing. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 21 20:59:38 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:59:38 -0700 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 25 In-Reply-To: <4601C136.1050005@gmail.com> References: <001801c76c18$42f64840$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> <4601C136.1050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4601E30A.90607@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dan Snyder wrote: > >> Still cleaning out... up for relocation: 1 IBM PS/2 Model 25, >> completely functional. >> Boots to DOS, has WordPerfect 5.1, 640K ram, 20Meg hard drive. What a >> head trip >> waiting for it to boot and then listening to the HD access, retro.. > > > 8086 or 80286? Or 80386. I had one for a good while. Doc From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 21 21:00:54 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <200703220110.l2M1A2Cu045761@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <472383.3669.qm@web50512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:12:40 -0700 > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Subject: Re: single transistor projects? > > William Blair wrote: > > > Is this it?: > TINY URL: > > > 125 One-Transistor Projects (1970) > > http://tinyurl.com/2fzqhm > > BIG URL: > http://www.somerset.net/arm/fm_only_one_transistor_radio.html > http://www.somerset.net/arm/fm_only_lowtech.html Wasn't the original poster asking about a book on one-transistor projects that he used back in the late 60s? I don't get the TINY URL, BIG URL humor (if any was intended). Wm Blair ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 21:04:56 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:04:56 -0500 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk> <m1HUAzu-000J11C@p850ug1> <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703211904s4b06c0abg26087d77020efb5@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 22 Mar 2007 at 0:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > ... And for that matter the Commodore PET (I know > > the SuperPET had such a compiler), the C64, etc. > > How many of the above would run *any* type of compile-to-machine- > language HLL compiler? Most of the BASICs were tokenized and > interpreted. There was a C compiler for the C-64. It was terrible and slow, but it did do small programs. There were also BASIC compilers, but they weren't terribly fashionable. Mostly folks programmed in interpreted BASIC or assembler on those platforms (though there _was_ a push for a while for a language named COMAL, but I avoided it). I know there was a FORTRAN compiler for the SuperPET, but having not used it, I have to ask what the available target CPUs were - 6809, 6502, or both? With its banked 64Kbyte memory card, the SuperPET weighed in at 96K - plenty of RAM for serious work, but the processors were still slow, and IEEE disks with software GPIB handshake were no speed demons either. PETs were popular in some lab settings, so I would think that if FORTRAN would have been available for it, there would have been a niche market. Perhaps that's why the SuperPET had FORTRAN as an option. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 21 21:46:24 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:46:24 -0700 Subject: beware: "Microsoft BASIC" paper tape on eBay Message-ID: <4601EE00.5070001@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230107368051 You can read the first dozen bytes in the picture, which are 7 bit ASCII, starting with 1010000 1010010 1001111 "PROCESSOR TECHNOLOGY BASIC" most likely 4K Proc Tech BASIC, given the tape length.. Jim B. could probably confirm that. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Mar 21 21:10:51 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:10:51 -0400 Subject: single transistor projects? Message-ID: <0JFA00HID8PA1GR2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: single transistor projects? > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:28:29 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Tony Duell wrote: > >> >> These days, you can get 9V (PP3, 006P, 6F22, whatever you call them) >> batteries very cheaply in the 'Everything's a pound' shops (I assume you >> have similar shops that sell all sorts of things for a dollar a time). 5 >> to 10 of those in series will work as B battery, of couse. > >Well you can still buy a B battery here on this side of the pond. >http://www.tubesandmore.com/ Its way OT but I run a RCA tube portable off 10 9V and 4 "C" cells and it's very satisfactory. I took the old battery skin (cardboard label) and made a wood box inside of it to hold the batteries so it even looks like the real thing. Besides being the best AM broadcast radio I have it's an attention getter. Runs for about 20 hours on alkaline C cells and the 10 9V batteries usually outlast 3 to 4 sets of C cells. >> Personally, I'd use a mains supply. a 30V transformer (15-0-15, ignoring >> the centre tape or a pair of 15V windings in series) feeding a voltage >> doubler rectifier (2 diodes, 2 capacitors) will give about 85V, ideal for >> most 'battery' valve circuits. > >They also sell a power pack kit too for small radios. >I suspect if you dig around over there you can scounge up >a better power supply, for the simple reason parts are whole >lot cheaper now than in one's youth. I have a PS I did using power mosfets and a tapewound toroid I wound up. Full wave bridge and filter. Also it's adjustable and regulated from 80 to 200V which makes it ideal for small tube projects (power limit is ~40W). Allison From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Mar 21 21:45:08 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:45:08 -0500 Subject: SuperPET (was: Re: John Backus passes away...) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703211904s4b06c0abg26087d77020efb5@mail.gmail.com> References: <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703220245.l2M2j4xw023461@hosting.monisys.ca> > I know there was a FORTRAN compiler for the SuperPET, but having not > used it, I have to ask what the available target CPUs were - 6809, > 6502, or both? > > With its banked 64Kbyte memory card, the SuperPET weighed in at 96K - > plenty of RAM for serious work, but the processors were still slow, > and IEEE disks with software GPIB handshake were no speed demons > either. > > PETs were popular in some lab settings, so I would think that if > FORTRAN would have been available for it, there would have been a > niche market. Perhaps that's why the SuperPET had FORTRAN as an > option. The superpet was a joint development between Commodore and the University of Waterloo here in Ontario - It was originally developed as a way to teach mainframe languages (at the time) without having to have mainframes (This is why it is sometimes referred to as the Micro-Mainframe). The Waterloo software (including all the compiled languages) runs pretty much independant of the 6502, using the original PET hardware just for I/O. (In fact, the MicroWAT, a small stand-alone 6809 computer ram the Waterloo languages without a 6502/PET board at all). There are no options to compile code for the 6502. It is very slow to use - but I suppose that wasn't a major problem for the learning environment it was intended for - Most of the programs compiled would be small, and it sure beat having to relocate to a mainframe shop. I have two working SuperPETs, and I love them - not only do they have my favorite 8-bit processor (6809), but also APL which I was fanatical about when I first started "discovered computers" playing with the university mainframe. Very cool machines! Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 21 21:37:10 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:37:10 -0500 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Mar 21, 7 12:12:38 pm, <m1HUAzu-000J11C@p850ug1> <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > But maybe not--even the lowly IBM 1620 with 20K digits (not bytes--a > character took 2 digits) of core and no disk drive would compile > FORTRAN. >... That's pretty impressive. I wonder which machine would take the prize for the most done with so little? It's quite amazing how much could be squeezed out of some of these old systems... From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 21 22:01:20 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703211904s4b06c0abg26087d77020efb5@mail.gmail.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Mar 21, 7 09:04:56 pm" Message-ID: <200703220301.l2M31KSM012864@floodgap.com> > > > ... And for that matter the Commodore PET (I know > > > the SuperPET had such a compiler), the C64, etc. > > > > How many of the above would run *any* type of compile-to-machine- > > language HLL compiler? Most of the BASICs were tokenized and > > interpreted. > > There was a C compiler for the C-64. It was terrible and slow, but it > did do small programs. There were also BASIC compilers, but they > weren't terribly fashionable. Mostly folks programmed in interpreted > BASIC or assembler on those platforms (though there _was_ a push for a > while for a language named COMAL, but I avoided it). Didn't care much for COMAL either. A number of people used Pascal and there were a couple of implementations from various vendors. I know there were some commercial products that were BASIC, compiled with BLITZ!, so I would say there was probably more of a following for BASIC compilers than many people might think. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Ferris Bueller's E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 21 22:03:39 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <m1HUAzu-000J11C@p850ug1> from Tony Duell at "Mar 22, 7 00:17:39 am" Message-ID: <200703220303.l2M33d7m015982@floodgap.com> > I've not seen a Fortran compiler for any of the following : : > What abotu [...] the C64, etc. Abacus made a FORTRAN compiler for the 64. They even made a COBOL (!). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. -- Dave McGuire --------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 21 23:00:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:00:36 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk>, <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com>, <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46019CF4.1758.196F30DF@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2007 at 21:37, Jules Richardson wrote: > That's pretty impressive. I wonder which machine would take the prize for the > most done with so little? It's quite amazing how much could be squeezed out of > some of these old systems... What was the minimum core requirement on a 360/20 for FORTRAN? Did that include external mass storage? Cheers, Chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Mar 21 22:58:50 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:58:50 -0400 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? Message-ID: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> It seems all of my removable media devices are broken (TK50 and RX50). That leaves me wondering if I can boot a MicroVAX II or a KDJ11-A off of a CD-ROM. I have a SCSI controller that should work with either machine and I have a SCSI CD-ROM drive. Can either of these machines boot from a SCSI CD-ROM? Thanks, David From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Mar 21 22:47:33 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: beware: "Microsoft BASIC" paper tape on eBay Message-ID: <930030.12775.qm@web83110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm away from home right now so I can't check, but the "5K BASIC" was really about 6.5K. I imagine 5K was what their target was and what the advertised and presold it as while it was still under development. Even though it ballooned to 6.5K by the time they were done, they kept calling it 5K BASIC. Extended cassette BASIC was close to 16KB. Besides adding string support, it also has the "MAT" statement set and a bunch of other features. Nevertheless, it seemed pretty big for its feature set. So, I'd agree with Al, this is probably 5K BASIC. ----- Original Message ---- From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:46:24 PM Subject: beware: "Microsoft BASIC" paper tape on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230107368051 You can read the first dozen bytes in the picture, which are 7 bit ASCII, starting with 1010000 1010010 1001111 "PROCESSOR TECHNOLOGY BASIC" most likely 4K Proc Tech BASIC, given the tape length.. Jim B. could probably confirm that. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 21 23:16:41 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:16:41 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... Message-ID: <46020329.1040602@bitsavers.org> > I wonder which machine would take the prize for the > most done with so little? In the 60's, probably the LINC 1 or 2k 12 bit words, LINCtape, typewriter, CRT, and Lab I/O http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/ijs/epl/LINC.html From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Mar 21 23:25:55 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:25:55 -0500 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <E1HUEs7-0006bu-21@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> What's the controller? My UC07 can and does boot RSTS/E from a CDROM. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Betz Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? It seems all of my removable media devices are broken (TK50 and RX50). That leaves me wondering if I can boot a MicroVAX II or a KDJ11-A off of a CD-ROM. I have a SCSI controller that should work with either machine and I have a SCSI CD-ROM drive. Can either of these machines boot from a SCSI CD-ROM? Thanks, David From andrew at taswegian.com Wed Mar 21 23:35:57 2007 From: andrew at taswegian.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:35:57 +1100 Subject: some old stuff Message-ID: <00db01c76c3b$968bc0c0$8501a8c0@boofly> Hey all I've been in and out of the classic computer collecting 'circles' over the past decade and a half, but these days don't have much time to play with the old toys. I thought I'd divest myself of some of the items that I've been collecting and though I wasn't sure if it were appropriate to advertise 'for sale' on the list, it's probably OK to let people know that I have these items and that I'll be happy to provide pictures and/or information for historical reasons. If you are interested in trade/sale discussion please contact me privately (andrew - at - taswegian.com). General questions about functionality/history can go to the list. I have a DataNumerics DL-8A. This is possibly the only one still alive, certainly the only one I've heard of in a decade+ in collectors' hands. It's a front-panel machine very much like an early Altair - lots of blinking lights. Very nice visuals, and appears to work perfectly - I fire it up every year or so. Inside it's an 8080, I think - haven't had it open for a while. Totally wirewrapped, quite neatly made. and with a low serial number in the 20s, from memory. I'll be happy to do images and/or provide additional information as requested. I also have a Dulmont Magnum with original manual. This is one of the very first laptops, comes with a fold-up 4-line LCD display. I haven't had this one working, nor have I tried. I'd be guessing to say it was functional, but there are no obvious issues like battery damage, etc. Weighs a ton, but for its day it was no doubt a portable marvel. I do have an extensive collection of early Soviet calculators and handheld computers. I collected most of these in the mid to late '90s when building my site Museum of Soviet Calculators - http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/soviet.html . The collection includes a prototype or two, including one of the only two known MK-98 machines. The collection as a whole (100 machines?), but not individually is available for trade/sale. Finally, I have a very interesting homebrew machine built by a fairly well known Australian electrical wizard of the '70s and '80s, who published many articles in the aussie electronics magazines. This particular machine was a Signetics 2650 machine, but configured to run 8080 code (and hence, CP/M) through a software emulator. The whole machine, including the video card, was designed and built by the one guy and can be considered historical and one-of-a-kind. That's about it, really. If anyone would like pictures and/or further information on these just ask. Cheers A From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 22 01:24:28 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:24:28 -0800 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <p06240846c227d13d880a@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:58 PM -0400 3/21/07, David Betz wrote: >It seems all of my removable media devices are broken (TK50 and >RX50). That leaves me wondering if I can boot a MicroVAX II or a >KDJ11-A off of a CD-ROM. I have a SCSI controller that should work >with either machine and I have a SCSI CD-ROM drive. Can either of >these machines boot from a SCSI CD-ROM? > >Thanks, >David Short answer, yes. Long answer, it depends on if the SCSI controller will support a CD-ROM. I'd recommend trying a Plextor SCSI CD-ROM drive set to 512-byte blocks, or a DEC CD-ROM drive. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 01:16:51 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:16:51 -0700 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703212316n5dbf0346qbc4b5d10282b03b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/21/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > It seems all of my removable media devices are broken (TK50 and > RX50). That leaves me wondering if I can boot a MicroVAX II or a > KDJ11-A off of a CD-ROM. I have a SCSI controller that should work > with either machine and I have a SCSI CD-ROM drive. Can either of > these machines boot from a SCSI CD-ROM? > As Zane also replied, it depends on the SCSI controller and the CD-ROM drive. A combination that worked for me is a Dilog SQ706A Q-bus SCSI controller and a Plextor SCSI CD-ROM jumpered to 512-byte block mode. It would not boot correctly without setting the CD-ROM to 512-byte block mode. With this combination I was able to boot a KDJ11-A from an XXDP disk image that I burned onto a CD-ROM, and also boot a KA650 from the VMS 7.3 distribution disk on CD-ROM. -Glen From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Mar 22 02:06:38 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:06:38 -0400 Subject: Don in Tucson Message-ID: <01C76C2F.3CAD46C0@MSE_D03> Does anybody have a current email address for Don in Tucson, apparently no longer at THX1138 at dakotacom.net (or are you reading this, Don?) mike From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Mar 22 02:04:09 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:04:09 -0400 Subject: Chuck Guzis Message-ID: <01C76C2F.3BC3D120@MSE_D03> Chuck: Tried to send you an email off-list at cclist at sydex but got rejected as spam; have you got another address where I could reach you? mike From sdc695 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 22 02:50:56 2007 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Real Programmers (was: Re: John Backus passes away...) Message-ID: <40386.35108.qm@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:34:12 "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> says: > > > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: John Backus passes away... > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> On 3/21/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: >> Nope, real programmers write in binary. > > 01010010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01001111 01101110 > 00100001 > Sorry wrong bits!! Wrong code set! 11101000 11001001 11000111 11001000 11100011 01000000 11010110 11010101 01011010 4900796 (Somebody will understand this reference) -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From jonas at otter.se Thu Mar 22 02:54:30 2007 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:54:30 -0000 Subject: Crossbar and NeWS questions Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0402191246320.19451@localhost> The Burroughs B5000/6000/7000 series mainframes used crossbar switches to interconnect CPUs with memory and I/O processors. These machines were introduced in 1961 or thereabouts. Jonas Otter From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Mar 22 03:47:21 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:47:21 +0000 Subject: Hex Keypad - APL hardware In-Reply-To: <4601E19A.4020402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C76BF8.ECC148E0@MSE_D03> <4601E19A.4020402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1174553241.1052.42.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-03-21 at 18:53 -0700, woodelf wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > > > Let me know off-list if you can't find what you need; I've got several boxes > > full of old keyboards etc. (including an APL keyboard, although I can't > > recall what that's from ). > > So how does the APL character work on new machines? From what I remember > is that originally APL over-struck a hard copy to get the fancy > characters. I always admired APL for being a early write only > language - you can never figure what you wrote. > > > First hit on Goooooooooogle: http://www.sigapl.org/font.htm ;-) Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Mar 22 03:53:46 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:53:46 +0000 Subject: beware: "Microsoft BASIC" paper tape on eBay In-Reply-To: <4601EE00.5070001@bitsavers.org> References: <4601EE00.5070001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1174553626.1052.50.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-03-21 at 19:46 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230107368051 > > You can read the first dozen bytes in the picture, which > are 7 bit ASCII, starting with 1010000 1010010 1001111 > > "PROCESSOR TECHNOLOGY BASIC" > > most likely 4K Proc Tech BASIC, given the tape length.. > > Jim B. could probably confirm that. Rather than sit here and shout "Beware! Beware! Woe to you that buy from the rip-off eBay BASIC paper tape man", did you try emailing the seller and say that? Gordon From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Mar 22 05:28:52 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:28:52 +0000 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <C227679B.39216%jvdg@sparcpark.net> References: <460081A2.3090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <C227679B.39216%jvdg@sparcpark.net> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703220328y15921f19ved017c5468db3fe0@mail.gmail.com> On 21/03/07, Joost van de Griek <jvdg at sparcpark.net> wrote: > > Anyone know of a COBOL compiler for Mac OS X? :-P http://www.opencobol.org/ claims to run on OS X. Of course that's more of a COBOL to C translator (and then chains gcc) rather than a true COBOL compiler... Almost on-topic, I've got a copy of "Fujitsu COBOL" June 1997 edition here.. I've had it since it was new, and still not got around to trying it out... I think I can beat the minumum spec, now, though. (486, 5Mb RAM Win 3.1/95/NT..) From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Mar 22 07:49:55 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703211904s4b06c0abg26087d77020efb5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070322124955.F2313580A0@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Ethan Dicks > > On 3/21/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > > On 22 Mar 2007 at 0:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > > ... And for that matter the Commodore PET (I know > > > the SuperPET had such a compiler), the C64, etc. > > > > How many of the above would run *any* type of compile-to-machine- > > language HLL compiler? Most of the BASICs were tokenized and > > interpreted. > > There was a C compiler for the C-64. It was terrible and slow, but it > did do small programs. There were also BASIC compilers, but they > weren't terribly fashionable. Mostly folks programmed in interpreted > BASIC or assembler on those platforms (though there _was_ a push for a > while for a language named COMAL, but I avoided it). > Commodore also released PILOT for the C-64.. Cheers, Bryan From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 22 07:48:20 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:48:20 -0400 Subject: Board ID? In-Reply-To: <200703211901.l2LJ1eIo011483@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <8B506205-1E8C-46D0-8A78-D48B115330B9@xlisper.com> <200703211901.l2LJ1eIo011483@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <9AEB8CA4-D0B1-479A-83A1-3D79D3C01A2D@xlisper.com> Thanks for your response. Unfortunately, I've tried several times to follow your link but I get about the first page of output and then my browser stalls. Are you able to view the entire page? Thanks, David On Mar 21, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> I have a qbus board that I'd like to identify. I think it's some >> sort of SCSI adapter but I don't know if it will support disks or >> if it is "tape only". The board is labeled "TD Systems (c) 1987 ASSY >> 210-00031". In another place on the board it says "211 00031 REV E". >> It has a ROM on it labeled "Viking Q/B A4.1". Is this a Viking SCSI >> adapter? Can anyone point me to a manual for it? I've already checked >> Bitsavers and Manx and haven't found it. >> >> Also, if it is a SCSI hard disk capable adapter, does it have an >> onboard boot that will work with a PDP-11? > > http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/info-vax/2004_654.txt > > Sounds like it is indeed a SCSI controller. > > De From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 22 08:08:39 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:08:39 -0400 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703212316n5dbf0346qbc4b5d10282b03b@mail.gmail.com> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703212316n5dbf0346qbc4b5d10282b03b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <C73CF035-9F87-4ABA-A93A-870D629E7A69@xlisper.com> > On 3/21/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: >> It seems all of my removable media devices are broken (TK50 and >> RX50). That leaves me wondering if I can boot a MicroVAX II or a >> KDJ11-A off of a CD-ROM. I have a SCSI controller that should work >> with either machine and I have a SCSI CD-ROM drive. Can either of >> these machines boot from a SCSI CD-ROM? >> > > As Zane also replied, it depends on the SCSI controller and the CD-ROM > drive. A combination that worked for me is a Dilog SQ706A Q-bus SCSI > controller and a Plextor SCSI CD-ROM jumpered to 512-byte block mode. > It would not boot correctly without setting the CD-ROM to 512-byte > block mode. > > With this combination I was able to boot a KDJ11-A from an XXDP disk > image that I burned onto a CD-ROM, and also boot a KA650 from the VMS > 7.3 distribution disk on CD-ROM. Okay, here' s a dumb question. What do I type at the ">>>" prompt to boot from the SCSI controller. This is a TD Systems Viking controller. I tried just "boot" but that seems to attempt to and fail to boot from the ESDI hard drive. I have the MVII technical manual and looked up the boot command but all it says is "boot <device>" but doesn't say what the choices are for "device". What would I enter as a device name to skip over the ESDI drive and boot from the CD-ROM attached to the Viking controller? Also, the CD-ROM drive is set for unit 4 if that makes a difference. Thanks, David From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 22 07:32:00 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:32:00 +0000 Subject: Sol terminal in Practical Electronics July 1976 Message-ID: <BAY107-F10162A34F1A557ECA3F895D86B0@phx.gbl> Hi, I saw this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230104939789 for Practical Electronics July 1976. This features a 8080A computer and refers to the SOL terminal. Is there any relation between this computer and the SOL 20 computer? Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 22 08:45:26 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:45:26 -0700 Subject: beware: "Microsoft BASIC" paper tape on eBay Message-ID: <46028876.10403@bitsavers.org> > did you try emailing the seller and say that? Of course I did, prior to posting the classiccmp message. I received no reply, and the auction is still there, unmodified. Would it have been better not to warn potential buyers on this list about it? From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 22 09:11:38 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:11:38 -0400 Subject: software (actually anything classic computer related) directory In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:50:54 PDT.) <46019AAE.8040309@bitsavers.org> References: <46019AAE.8040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200703221411.l2MEBc70024955@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Jay, Combined responses to several subthreads: I think the database is a great idea. I'll join the new list to discuss it when its created. There are a number of existing data formats which are at least related to the concept. MARC was already mentioned. It's capable of doing this, but is indeed very heavy-weight. It's also a transfer format; relatively little software stores pure MARC in database form for routine processing. OTOH, as a data format, it's clearly on topic, originating over 30 years ago on mainframe systems. :) Another one we should probably look at is Encoded Archival Description (EAD), for ideas if nothing else. EAD is XML-encoded, which probably makes it unsuitable in the minds of many, but it was designed by professional archivists, who do this sort of thing for a living. Whatever data format is selected, it'd be nice to be able to identify duplicate holdings and provide multiple links to the searcher, so if one source is down or gone, another is available. The OAI Harvesting Protocol is lightweight and should probably get a serious look as the mechanism for gathering this data into the central database. It was designed for exactly this kind of application. We might consider replicating the central database as well; perhaps not live for the public, but having the software and data ready to go in a few other places. De From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 22 09:24:47 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:24:47 -0400 Subject: Ultrix device names Message-ID: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> I have a MicroVAX II that is able to boot into Ultrix 4.3 single user mode. If I type "mount" it says that /dev/ra0a is mounted on /. I assume that is my ESDI hard drive since the drives plugged into my SDC-RQD11-EC ESDI controller are the only ones plugged into my system. So, my question is, what would the second drive on that controller be called? Would it be /dev/ra0b or /dev/ra1a? In other words, what do the "0" and "a" parts of the device name mean? Is "0" the controller and "a" the device on that controller? I also have a TD Systems Viking SCSI controller in the system with a CD-ROM drive attached. What device name would I use for that? I'd also like to know how to address that drive from the MVII boot prompt so that I can boot directly off of the CD-ROM. Thanks, David From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 22 09:28:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:28:58 -0500 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <46020329.1040602@bitsavers.org> References: <46020329.1040602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <460292AA.3020808@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > I wonder which machine would take the prize for the > > most done with so little? > > In the 60's, probably the LINC > > 1 or 2k 12 bit words, LINCtape, typewriter, CRT, and Lab I/O > > http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/ijs/epl/LINC.html I wonder if it's so clear-cut, though. I mean, people have managed to do some pretty impressive stuff with some of the 80's 8 bit "home" machines too - well beyond what anyone ever assumed was possible. So there's a temptation to assume that the "winner" would be an older machine (60s or 70s), but it might not be so easy as that... (although I suppose the "rules" should confine things to official hardware configurations only, which perhaps rules out any newer machines that have had things like IDE hard drives added by their owners) cheers Jules From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 09:23:16 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:23:16 -0400 Subject: SuperPET (was: Re: John Backus passes away...) In-Reply-To: <200703220245.l2M2j4xw023461@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> <f4eb766f0703211904s4b06c0abg26087d77020efb5@mail.gmail.com> <200703220245.l2M2j4xw023461@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4affc5e0703220723w2bbf10fcmfc18ea507754980a@mail.gmail.com> On 21/03/07, Dave Dunfield <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote: > > I know there was a FORTRAN compiler for the SuperPET, but having not > > used it, I have to ask what the available target CPUs were - 6809, > > 6502, or both? > > PETs were popular in some lab settings, so I would think that if > > FORTRAN would have been available for it, there would have been a > > niche market. Perhaps that's why the SuperPET had FORTRAN as an > > option. My SuperPET once served as a controller for Lab equipment in the Physics dept. at McGill, but I'm fairly certain it was in the 6502 mode (likely BASIC, even). Basic acquisition using the IEEE-488 port, actual processing was probably done on bigger irons. > The Waterloo software (including all the compiled languages) runs pretty > much independant of the 6502, using the original PET hardware just for I/O. > (In fact, the MicroWAT, a small stand-alone 6809 computer ram the Waterloo > languages without a 6502/PET board at all). There are no options to compile > code for the 6502. IIRC, (and I do intend to check soon - cleaning and powering up my SP9000 is a task for this spring :-) the languages are not actually compiled - it's interpreted. > It is very slow to use - but I suppose that wasn't a major problem for the > learning environment it was intended for - Most of the programs compiled > would be small, and it sure beat having to relocate to a mainframe shop. > > I have two working SuperPETs, and I love them - not only do they have my > favorite 8-bit processor (6809), but also APL which I was fanatical about > when I first started "discovered computers" playing with the university > mainframe. Very cool machines! Yes, it's the APL which really makes the machines special. We don't need no stinkin' bit-mapped display! We have custom character sets! (I think I still have the sheet with the sticky APL keycaps - though they are actually in the front of the key - invaluable unless you can touch type funky greek characters!) BTW Dave, I also have a second copy of WordPro (or whatever it's called?) with full manual, if you're interested. With ROM, even... I guess some grad students even used it to write their theses! No I don't know why two copies came with one PET, I guess a second PET burnt out at some point. Joe. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 22 09:37:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:37:07 -0700 Subject: Desperately seeking.. terminal In-Reply-To: <2901.69.145.252.74.1174519101.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: <BAY138-F2465F25E48DAD7F559132EA36B0@phx.gbl> >From: feedle at feedle.net > > > Try Sellam's "Vintage Computer Marketplace". I've picked up several nice > > terminala there for very modest prices. With shipping they should be >well > > under $100. > >I'd love to, unfortunately I don't have an account, and it takes three >days to get it verified (according to the site). > >There were a couple of terminals up there.. if those Vintage Computer >Marketplace users are on this list and would like to contact me privately >at this address, I'd appreciate it. > >No, Dave: I don't want the ADDS terminal with no keyboard *chuckle*. > Hi When desperate, I use a PC or an older laptop with serial. I find it more convenient as well. There are times I wish to download a source file to the machine in question. Sometimes, I need to add delays for CR's but that isn't a big issue. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 22 08:51:12 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:51:12 -0700 Subject: Crossbar and NeWS questions Message-ID: <460289D0.8010005@bitsavers.org> > The Burroughs B5000/6000/7000 series mainframes used crossbar switches to > interconnect CPUs with memory and I/O processors. These machines were > introduced in 1961 or thereabouts. The relevant document is the B 5220 Central Control Technical Manual, orig issued in 1964 which discusses the crossbar: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/B5000_5500_5700/B5220.51_CentralControl_Tech_Sep66.pdf page 111 or so.. From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 22 09:40:57 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:40:57 -0400 Subject: VAXmate Service Guide and Option Installation Guides Message-ID: <DC06D19D-FA2B-4580-866B-3035AD784804@xlisper.com> Does anyone want a DEC binder containing tthe VAXmate Service Guide, VAXmate Personal Workstation Handbook and installation guides for a number of VAXmate options? I got this with a bunch of MicroVAX stuff and don't have any use for it. I thought I'd offer it here before consigning it to the trash. Thanks, David From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 22 09:59:41 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <20070322124955.F2313580A0@mail.wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Mar 22, 7 08:49:55 am" Message-ID: <200703221459.l2MExftj011288@floodgap.com> > > > How many of the above would run *any* type of compile-to-machine- > > > language HLL compiler? Most of the BASICs were tokenized and > > > interpreted. > > There was a C compiler for the C-64. > Commodore also released PILOT for the C-64.. It's only an interpreter, though, alas. But I like PILOT and the C64 version had some interesting extensions. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- jsr $fce2 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Mar 22 10:07:39 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:07:39 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:37:10 CDT." <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200703221507.l2MF7dZM004370@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> But maybe not--even the lowly IBM 1620 with 20K digits (not bytes--a >> character took 2 digits) of core and no disk drive would compile >> FORTRAN. > >... The really fun part was using "load and go fortran". As I recall (dimly), you'd load the fortran deck and then load your fortran code. I'm pretty sure it compiled into memory and then just ran it... -brad From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Mar 22 10:28:24 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sol terminal in Practical Electronics July 1976 Message-ID: <20070322152824.81228.qmail@web83103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> John, it is one and the same. The production Sol was different than what appeared in the article. There were just a few prototypes made, and the one in the article is one of them. At www.sol20.org you can find scans of the article, and elsewhere is the PCB artwork for that revision board, which didn't appear in the magazine, but which was offered in the article for the cost of a self addressed stamped envelope. ----- Original Message ---- From: John S <john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:32:00 AM Subject: Sol terminal in Practical Electronics July 1976 Hi, I saw this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230104939789 for Practical Electronics July 1976. This features a 8080A computer and refers to the SOL terminal. Is there any relation between this computer and the SOL 20 computer? Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 22 11:38:02 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:38:02 -0800 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <E1HUEs7-0006bu-21@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <E1HUEs7-0006bu-21@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <p0624084bc22861187da3@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:25 PM -0500 3/21/07, Julian Wolfe wrote: >What's the controller? My UC07 can and does boot RSTS/E from a CDROM. Does it come all the way up, and can you install RSTS/E from it? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 10:41:09 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:41:09 -0700 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <C73CF035-9F87-4ABA-A93A-870D629E7A69@xlisper.com> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703212316n5dbf0346qbc4b5d10282b03b@mail.gmail.com> <C73CF035-9F87-4ABA-A93A-870D629E7A69@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703220841p76a2cb7s56b402ed6edd6a91@mail.gmail.com> On 3/22/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > Okay, here' s a dumb question. What do I type at the ">>>" prompt to > boot from the SCSI controller. This is a TD Systems Viking > controller. I tried just "boot" but that seems to attempt to and fail > to boot from the ESDI hard drive. I have the MVII technical manual > and looked up the boot command but all it says is "boot <device>" but > doesn't say what the choices are for "device". What would I enter as > a device name to skip over the ESDI drive and boot from the CD-ROM > attached to the Viking controller? Also, the CD-ROM drive is set for > unit 4 if that makes a difference. > Try this, where x is a number. >>>b dubx MSCP controllers are du, each controller is assinged a letter starting with 'a', and each devices on the controller is assigned a unit number. On a PDP-11 MSCP controllers are supposed to have unique device numbers across all controllers but not necessarily so on a MVII so you could have both dua0 and dub0. The SCSI ID of the CD-ROM does may not directly map to a unit number, i.e SCSI ID of 4 probably does not mean MSCP unit number 4. On the Dilog SQ706A you have to configure the SCSI ID -> MSCP unit number mapping using the on board firmware utility. Maybe there is a similar utility somewhere in the Viking controller firmware. I'm pretty new to this also. I believe ">>>show device" would display all of the controllers and attached devices found. -Glen From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 22 11:48:37 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:48:37 -0800 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <C73CF035-9F87-4ABA-A93A-870D629E7A69@xlisper.com> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703212316n5dbf0346qbc4b5d10282b03b@mail.gmail.com> <C73CF035-9F87-4ABA-A93A-870D629E7A69@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <p0624084ac2285d659fb0@[192.168.1.199]> At 9:08 AM -0400 3/22/07, David Betz wrote: >Okay, here' s a dumb question. What do I type at the ">>>" prompt to >boot from the SCSI controller. This is a TD Systems Viking >controller. I tried just "boot" but that seems to attempt to and >fail to boot from the ESDI hard drive. I have the MVII technical >manual and looked up the boot command but all it says is "boot ><device>" but doesn't say what the choices are for "device". What >would I enter as a device name to skip over the ESDI drive and boot >from the CD-ROM attached to the Viking controller? Also, the CD-ROM >drive is set for unit 4 if that makes a difference. > >Thanks, >David IIRC, it should be DUx: It's been a while since I booted my PDP-11, and I've never put one in a MicroVAX. Here is the manual. ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/dan/viking_scsi/ The important question is what version are your ROMs. I did a bunch of work with these boards a few years ago, and as near as I was able to determine it you need a fairly new version of firmware to use a CD. I believe that you need higher than V3.4 firmware. I've used DEC RRD-42, Plextor 6x & 8x caddy drives with the Viking QDT. As I've mentioned before the use of caddy drives is in part a personal choice as the caddy's are handy since there aren't that many PDP-11 CD's. I did try a 4x tray drive that worked in my DEC Alpha's, and it wouldn't work. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 22 11:03:42 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:03:42 -0700 Subject: Crossbar and NeWS questions In-Reply-To: <460289D0.8010005@bitsavers.org> References: <460289D0.8010005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4602A8DE.6090300@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > > The Burroughs B5000/6000/7000 series mainframes used crossbar > switches to > > interconnect CPUs with memory and I/O processors. These machines were > > introduced in 1961 or thereabouts. > > The relevant document is the B 5220 Central Control Technical Manual, orig > issued in 1964 which discusses the crossbar: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/B5000_5500_5700/B5220.51_CentralControl_Tech_Sep66.pdf > > > page 111 or so.. > > additional info from a posting by doug jones > No matter how many processors you have, only one can access common RAM > at a time, right? > I was wondering if anyone had figured out a way to allow simultaneous > accesses of RAM by multiple processors. This has been done in many ways over the years. In 1960, a guy named Conway proposed the solution that Burroughs used for its commercial multiprocessors (they routinely sold 6 processor machines into the early 1980's). This involved a crossbar switch: | | CPU --+--+-- | | CPU --+--+-- | | M M Here, the cost of the interconnection goes up as the square of the number of CPU's. By 1973, they were able to build a 16 CPU system on this pattern at Carnegie-Mellon University. As long as each CPU used a different memory, they ran at full speed, but when two tried to access the same memory at the same time, they'd slow down. In the late 1970's, another scheme was invented, the snooping cache. Here, you hook things up like this: CPU CPU CPU ... CPU | | | | cache cache cache cache | | | | ---+-----+-----+-------+---+---+-----+-- | | | M M ... M Here, when a CPU accesses memory, it usually gets a local copy of the necessary value in its own cache. Only when the local cache hasn't got a copy of the value does the bus and the real memory get used. Of course, keeping all cached copies of the same meory location up to date when one CPU changes that location is a good trick, but the problem is solved by what are called snooping caches. Back in the 1980's, Sequent and Encore came out with machines supporting 16 to 64 processors built this way; DEC built the firefly workstation this way also -- using 4 microvaxen. There are other schemes that combine the virtues of the above two ideas, and these have allowed experimental systems with thousands of processors to be built. The recent announcement from Sun of a machine with 64 processors puts it at the high end of what I expect snooping caches to be able to do, but at the low end of the range successfully explored by the more complex interconnection systems. Multiprocessors aren't novel; they've been commercially available for 30 years! Doug Jones j... at cs.uiowa.edu From eds_2 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 22 11:22:16 2007 From: eds_2 at yahoo.com (Eric Scharff) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available Message-ID: <676815.70159.qm@web32508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Every so often, a discussion of Tiny BASIC appears around here. I was curious about one of the very first versions of Tiny BASIC, the 8080 implementation done by Whipple and Arnold, as documented in the Vol. 1 No. 1 (Jan 1976) issue of Dr. Dobb's Journal (of Tiny BASIC Calisthenics and Orthodontia) This issue contains an octal listing of a Tiny BASIC interpreter for the 8080, and I couldn't find this version available for download anywhere. So... I typed it in, and it works! I documented my work, which is available at http://oss.readytalk.com/tb/tinybasic.tar.gz (Note - this location is temporary - I need a home for this if anyone is interested) Included are the text file for the octal listing, a binary which can be loaded into memory, an attempt to extract the IL from the binary, and some instructions on bringing up Tiny BASIC. I was able to run some simple programs with a Z80 simulator that I've been running, and it appears to work correctly. I found the PDF of the listing in the ACM digital library: http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/987491.987494 Typing in octal listings is error-prone enough, and typing them in from bad PDF scans of bad photocopies is even trickier. I have corrected many errors, but I'm sure there are more. If any kind soul would be willing to proofread / correct the listing, it would be **GREATLY** appreciated. I hope this is of interest to people. I'm very interested in other versions of Tiny BASIC out there, if someone has ever typed this listing before, etc. I'm familiar with Tom Pittman's work, but other resources would be greatly appreciated. -Eric ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Mar 22 11:45:58 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:45:58 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> * Al Kossow wrote: > I wonder which machine would take the prize for the > most done with so little? In the 60's, probably the LINC 1 or 2k 12 bit words, LINCtape, typewriter, CRT, and Lab I/O http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/ijs/epl/LINC.html Billy: It touched me as a little ironic that the photo attached said: JPEG image, 20k Linc could so much with 1 or 2K, and today we need 20K just for a simple photo of it. Billy From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 22 11:48:55 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:48:55 -0400 Subject: Sol terminal in Practical Electronics July 1976 In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F10162A34F1A557ECA3F895D86B0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <200703221649.l2MGn0Cn004992@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:32:00 +0000, John S wrote: >Hi, >I saw this auction: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230104939789 >for Practical Electronics July 1976. This features a 8080A computer and >refers to the SOL terminal. Is there any relation between this computer and >the SOL 20 computer? Yes it is the first generation kit-project the Sol-20 grew out of. Bob From martin at biblewitness.org.uk Thu Mar 22 11:48:51 2007 From: martin at biblewitness.org.uk (biblewitness.org.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:48:51 -0000 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller Message-ID: <001d01c76ca2$10034520$9eb21052@MND> jd wrote: >HP's number for this OEM board--by MSC/Xebec is 88134-69910, 09135-69515, >and/or 09135-69501. I have no idea which number belongs to mine. FYI: These are all used on 5Mb drives with two sets of firmware classified as follows: 88134-69910 'L' Code - HP250 Model 20 09135-69515 'D' Code - 4-Volume 5-Mb (emulates HP 9895A drives - I use this for my 9845B and HP-85 & 87 systems) 09135-69501 'L' Code - single volume 5-Mb. Martin Web: http://www.biblewitness.org/technical From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Mar 22 12:15:48 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:15:48 -0400 Subject: VCF/Midwest 3 preliminary announcement Message-ID: <200703221315.48279.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm happy to announce that VCF/Midwest 3 is being sponsored this year by Purdue University's Research Computing group, the Rosen Center for Advanced Computing. The event will be a *2 day* event this year, on July 14th and 15th. Sellam is working on getting the web site set up for this year's event, and it should be up shortly, at http://www.vintage.org If you are interested in speaking at the event, exhibiting, or just have a question, please contact me at vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 22 12:18:54 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: SPAM Spoofing Message-ID: <200703221718.l2MHIsPX024420@onyx.spiritone.com> I've got a problem, and am wondering if anyone has any advice as to what I can do. I run my own private mailserver on my OpenVMS 7.3-2 system. Only a few people know how to get ahold of me, and it's basically used to communicate with my family. Someone started sending out spam yesterday that appears to be coming from my IP address and domain name based on the email headers, yet I've verfied the messages aren't originating from my network. As a result of this my VMS server has been thrashing, the B******* are using a fake account name that is 14 characters long, so OpenVMS won't automatically reject it, but instead bounces the bounces, then accepts the bounce backs. Last night I finally shut down SMTP on my VMS server, and am blocking all incoming SMTP connections at my firewall. I've also alerted my ISP as to the problem. Is there anything I can do about this? My one thought is to do an "emergency" upgrade to OpenVMS V8.3 as it will reject email to invalid accounts that are 13+ characters in length, and then turn SMTP back on. I've been meaning to do the upgrade, but haven't had time yet. Zane From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Mar 22 12:30:34 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:30:34 -0400 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <C73CF035-9F87-4ABA-A93A-870D629E7A69@xlisper.com> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703212316n5dbf0346qbc4b5d10282b03b@mail.gmail.com> <C73CF035-9F87-4ABA-A93A-870D629E7A69@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200703221330.35000.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 22 March 2007 09:08, David Betz wrote: > > On 3/21/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > >> It seems all of my removable media devices are broken (TK50 and > >> RX50). That leaves me wondering if I can boot a MicroVAX II or a > >> KDJ11-A off of a CD-ROM. I have a SCSI controller that should work > >> with either machine and I have a SCSI CD-ROM drive. Can either of > >> these machines boot from a SCSI CD-ROM? > > > > As Zane also replied, it depends on the SCSI controller and the > > CD-ROM drive. A combination that worked for me is a Dilog SQ706A > > Q-bus SCSI controller and a Plextor SCSI CD-ROM jumpered to > > 512-byte block mode. It would not boot correctly without setting > > the CD-ROM to 512-byte block mode. > > > > With this combination I was able to boot a KDJ11-A from an XXDP > > disk image that I burned onto a CD-ROM, and also boot a KA650 from > > the VMS 7.3 distribution disk on CD-ROM. > > Okay, here' s a dumb question. What do I type at the ">>>" prompt to > boot from the SCSI controller. This is a TD Systems Viking > controller. I tried just "boot" but that seems to attempt to and fail > to boot from the ESDI hard drive. I have the MVII technical manual > and looked up the boot command but all it says is "boot <device>" but > doesn't say what the choices are for "device". What would I enter as > a device name to skip over the ESDI drive and boot from the CD-ROM > attached to the Viking controller? Also, the CD-ROM drive is set for > unit 4 if that makes a difference. It all depends on how the controller is configured. In order to configure the controller, you'll need to make up a cable with a 50-pin connector on one end, and a serial connector on the other end, to talk to the device. There's more details in the manual - ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/dan/viking_scsi Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Thu Mar 22 13:16:35 2007 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (daviderhart at oldzonian.com) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:16:35 -0400 Subject: Looking for Mirage OS diskettes: Pinnace 1a or Sage II/IV Message-ID: <15610386.808691174587395030.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Hello, I'm looking for Mirage OS diskettes for a data recovery effort. I'm trying to recover data on a Pinnacle 1a (68000 based system) http://www.sageandstride.org/Pinnacle-1a-1.jpg The system has Mirage OS installed on the hard drive. The system no longer boots to the hard drive so I'm hoping to reinstall the Mirage OS on a different hard drive and access the current hard drive as a secondary drive. If anyone has a lead on where I can find a copy of some Mirage OS diskettes for either the Pinnacle 1a or for a Sage II or Sage IV, I would really appreciate it. Here is an old brochure on the Mirage OS: http://www.sageandstride.org/html/mirageos_0.html Thanks for any help. --- David W. Erhart daviderhart at oldzonian.com daviderhart at sageandstride.org http://www.sageandstride.org From ms at vaxcluster.de Thu Mar 22 14:12:11 2007 From: ms at vaxcluster.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:12:11 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <028701c76beb$5320e5e0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4602D50B.20505@vaxcluster.de> I would be interested, i think. But you should either make the subscription fee depending on the subscribers location (i'm from Germany, btw.), or charge for shipping seperately. Greetings Michael Schneider (ms) Jay West wrote: > I credit Guy Sotomayor with the original idea, a few others chimed in as > well. So I ran it by Al Kossow and this was officially blessed by him.... > [...] > Of course, if no one is interested, I'll just continue making the > occasional trip downtown to the datacenter and burning CD's for people > at no charge. It would be nice if there was interest in this though! > > Jay West > > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de "Man muss nicht immer alles glauben was stimmt" From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Mar 22 15:08:27 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:08:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Bitsavers subscription Message-ID: <18032668.1174594108228.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Jay West wrote: > >> I credit Guy Sotomayor with the original idea, a few others chimed in >> as well. So I ran it by Al Kossow and this was officially blessed by >> him.... >> >> The plan is for me to offer subscriptions to bitsavers for a fee. >> I'll sign up too. Ashley From eds_2 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 22 15:11:34 2007 From: eds_2 at yahoo.com (Eric Scharff) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available Message-ID: <547597.54750.qm@web32509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Every so often, a discussion of Tiny BASIC appears around here. I was curious about one of the very first versions of Tiny BASIC, the 8080 implementation done by Whipple and Arnold, as documented in the Vol. 1 No. 1 (Jan 1976) issue of Dr. Dobb's Journal (of Tiny BASIC Calisthenics and Orthodontia) This issue contains an octal listing of a Tiny BASIC interpreter for the 8080, and I couldn't find this version available for download anywhere. So... I typed it in, and it works! I documented my work, which is available at http://oss.readytalk.com/tb/tinybasic.tar.gz (Note - this location is temporary - I need a home for this if anyone is interested) Included are the text file for the octal listing, a binary which can be loaded into memory, an attempt to extract the IL from the binary, and some instructions on bringing up Tiny BASIC. I was able to run some simple programs with a Z80 simulator that I've been running, and it appears to work correctly. I found the PDF of the listing in the ACM digital library: http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/987491.987494 Typing in octal listings is error-prone enough, and typing them in from bad PDF scans of bad photocopies is even trickier. I have corrected many errors, but I'm sure there are more. If any kind soul would be willing to proofread / correct the listing, it would be **GREATLY** appreciated. I hope this is of interest to people. I'm very interested in other versions of Tiny BASIC out there, if someone has ever typed this listing before, etc. I'm familiar with Tom Pittman's work, but other resources would be greatly appreciated. -Eric ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Mar 22 15:34:00 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:34:00 +0000 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <200703212256.l2LMu9rs043079@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703212256.l2LMu9rs043079@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <290DA8BE-B387-4D88-A200-7B7E2099351C@microspot.co.uk> >>> 100 FORMAT( HX)=(1+BX ) >>> >>> Recall, that prior to FORTRAN 90, FORTRAN had no reserved words. >> >> Yes that does look weird at first sight. > > The bigger problem is that it's absolutely ambiguous in the light of > CDC FTN syntax. It can legitimately mean either a FORMAT statement > with the Hollerith constant ")=)1+B" or an assignment to the HX-th > element of an array called FORMAT of the value obtained by evaluating > 1+BX. The PTR ended up on the "deferred" list for quite a long time > as no one could think of an adequately airtight fix. Lots of work- > arounds were proposed, such as "well, if the statement number is > referenced in an I/O statement, then it's a FORMAT" or "if there's an > array called FORMAT, then it's an assignment". Unfortunately, > FORTRAN doesn't demand that FORMAT statements be referenced by an I/O > statement--"orphans" are perfectly legal. It was a real puzzle. Thanks for that, I had completely missed what you were saying, though I still don't know what a PTR is, except for a Paper Tape Reader or an abbreviation for PoinTeR. A bug report? If a FORMAT statement is not referenced by a READ or WRITE statement, does it matter if it is compiled incorrectly? Anyway, if they wanted an assign 1+BX, why put it in parentheses? Still an interesting example though. > Smart*ss customers! > > The usual way for FORTRAN compilers to work back then was to look at > the first word of a statement and attempt to parse it accordingly. > If that failed, then the statement was deemed to be an expression and > re-parsed. I presume that's why some Basics needed LET before an assignment. > This is only one case where a vendor's language extension got it into > trouble. Early on, most language standard specifications called out > the minimum subset of the language that had to be implemented and > remained silent on vendor extensions. Hence, you got scads of > differing dialects all claiming to be "FORTRAN IV". To my knowledge, > this persists in BASIC more than in any other language, ANSI X3.113 > nothwithstanding. Human languages are far worse of course. Roger. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Mar 22 15:59:21 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:59:21 +0000 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <200703221147.l2MBjqXM056690@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703221147.l2MBjqXM056690@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <B9BADB1E-7F69-4D82-8020-FD99CEF700AB@microspot.co.uk> >>>> Did any computer built after 1960 NOT have a FORTRAN >>>> implementation? >>> >>> Yes, my ICT1301 (155+ built from 1962 to 1965) had no Fortran >>> compiler. >> >> I've not seen a Fortran compiler for any of the following : >> >> HP9830 (I claim this is a computer, it ran BASIC from ROM) >> >> Philips P850 (maximum 2K words of core, I believe larger P800 series >> machines did have a Fortran compiler available) >> >> HP9825, 9831, 9845, 9835 series >> HP80 series. >> >> Just about all the pocekt computers (Sharp, Casio, HP, etc) >> >> What abotu the IBM 5100? And for that matter the Commodore PET (I >> know >> the SuperPET had such a compiler), the C64, etc. And the Sinclair/ >> Amstrad >> machines (ZX*0, ZX81, Spectrums). And the Oric > > How many of the above would run *any* type of compile-to-machine- > language HLL compiler? Most of the BASICs were tokenized and > interpreted. > > A few of those that you've cited simply didn't have the resources for > it. > > But maybe not--even the lowly IBM 1620 with 20K digits (not bytes--a > character took 2 digits) of core and no disk drive would compile > FORTRAN. That's pretty remarkable when you consider that a 1620 > instruction is 12 digits long--and the bottom half-K or so was > dedicated to storing arithmetic lookup tables (the 1620 Cadet > couldn't even add two numbers without the tables first being loaded). > The card reader-punch was used as intermediate storage--you read in > pass 1 of the compiler, then your program, which caused a new card to > be punched for every statement. You then read in the deck for pass > 2, followed by your program and an executable object deck was punched > (and a listing was made on the printer). AFAIK, the Cadet equipped > with paper tape instead of cards could do the same thing. This was probably not aimed at me, but for the record the ICT 1301 had a COBOL compiler (if you count that as a HLL) but most programs were written in machine code with relativisers. The largest 1301 had 2000 words by 12 digits, but I think COBOL could run on a 1200 word machine, so 1200 x 12 =14400 digits, a bit less than a 1620. What it did (and still does) have is a 12000 word drum as backing store. Many 1301s also had mag tape too, but I am not sure COBOL needed to use them. Mind you 1301 instructions are mainly six digits long, Its just the block move and drum/tape I/O orders which are 12 digits. The card/paper tape intermediates reminds me of the older Elliott 920 Coral 66 compiler written by CAP (computer analysts and programmers). It was four passes and each pass punched out a tape to read into the next pass. The first pass expanded macros and was optional if you did not use any macros. The second and third passes converted from infix to polish, then polish to reverse polish (or maybe the other way round), and the final pass did code generation. Then you collected together all the tapes from all your program segments and libraries and fed them to a linking loader. If you managed to do that without tearing a tape you were rewarded by your program running. My boss wrote a mini operating system which loaded the programs and passed the intermediates via a huge disk (about a meter diameter with the axis horizontal, it was a head per track disc of a fairly small capacity, IIRC 2 million bits or maybe 2 million 18 bit words), which made life bearable. Later on we moved the compiler onto a GEC 4080 to cross compile for the 920. The 920 program grew and I had to modify the compiler so it could produce the binary output in chunks as it exceeded a 1000 foot roll of tape, and anyway I was the only person in the office capable of rolling up a full 1000 foot roll without damaging it. Roger. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 22 16:11:42 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:11:42 -0400 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <4601962F.2080808@philpem.me.uk> References: <460041A0.9060109@bluewin.ch> <20070320163427.E10228@shell.lmi.net> <p06240841c2264569c673@[192.168.1.199]> <C815CFBF-7963-4BB4-A34E-5B35068D5959@neurotica.com> <4601962F.2080808@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <3A21BF42-1508-4AA2-B566-3E1C5B9CA108@neurotica.com> On Mar 21, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Same here. The only "good" PS/2-interfaced keyboards I have >> here are a big box of SGI "granite" units, and even they have some >> flex (not much) to them. At least they have some heft, though. > > I've got a fairly nice Dell AT102W (aka Dell 093GDJ, and about the > only good thing to come out of Dell IMO). It's crammed full of Alps > microswitch key-switches, and is about the nicest keyboard I've > ever had. The keys have a lovely 'snap' action; probably not quite > as good as an IBM Model M, but not bad. The Quietkey is an > 'updated' version with - IIRC - a 'putty feel' membrane switch matrix. > > The AT101W is basically the same keyboard, but with a US key layout > instead of the UK key layout on the AT102W. They're quite plentiful > on eBay - AT102Ws are not. > > IIRC they came with some of the Dell servers and high-end desktops > many moons ago... Poweredge GX2 maybe? Also, FWICT > SiliconGraphics / SGI sold basically the same keyboard with the > same model number (AT-101 or AT-102), but in a 'granite' style. > Maybe that's what you've got, Dave? That very well may be. They sure are nice keyboards. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 16:30:52 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:30:52 -0400 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <20070322011049.GA31415@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> <460126B7.1161.17A156B8@cclist.sydex.com> <4601A3AC.2050502@gmail.com> <20070322011049.GA31415@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <4602F58C.3040302@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> http://www.pckeyboard.com/ for the Model M. Still being made. > > I've never found a good reason to buy a new one. The old ones seemingly > more plentiful than AOL CDs, and they hardly ever break (until you spill > some unfortunate liquid into them, at least. :) The only reason would be that you have a hard-on for a brand new keyboard. Or you want one of the newfangled Model M's with the newer features. > A friend and I have taken a hammer to one before, and it was still > working just fine after we put the keycaps back on... I ran one over with a car by accident and most of the keys still worked, even though the keycaps were broken. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 16:34:23 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:34:23 -0400 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4602F65F.9000309@gmail.com> David Betz wrote: > It seems all of my removable media devices are broken (TK50 and RX50). > That leaves me wondering if I can boot a MicroVAX II or a KDJ11-A off of > a CD-ROM. I have a SCSI controller that should work with either machine > and I have a SCSI CD-ROM drive. Can either of these machines boot from a > SCSI CD-ROM? They should be able to, if the SCSI controller supports MSCP. Peace... Sridhar From stevew at ka6s.com Thu Mar 22 16:59:18 2007 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steve Wilson) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:59:18 -0700 Subject: Hmm - Message-ID: <200703221459.18525.stevew@ka6s.com> >From Tom Watson - >Sorry wrong bits!! Wrong code set! >11101000 11001001 11000111 11001000 11100011 01000000 11010110 11010101 >01011010 > >4900796 (Somebody will understand this reference) Someone is trying to boot Fortran off of the Disk on an IBM 1620 me thinks... Steve Wilson From mconnor at cosmocom.com Thu Mar 22 17:17:29 2007 From: mconnor at cosmocom.com (Michael Connor) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:17:29 -0400 Subject: ADDS Multivision Message-ID: <2B46594393D57547A76924D25DCDF9800119E1CD@cos-hq-exch2k3.cosmocom.com> I saw your post about finding MUON disks for your MultiVision. I was part of the development team that designed this. I designed the BIOS & alot of the HW dealing with the floppy & hard disks. I do not have any of the disks, but might be able to find some of the others developers. Would you be interested in selling or trading it? This is the first one or posting I have seen since 1980 when I left ADDS - the company who made it. I am really interested in trying to see if you would sell/trade it. I can spend some email time discussing it's history if you like. Thanks, Mike Connor _____ Michael E Connor Quality Assurance Team Lead CosmoCom, Inc.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 />121 Broad Hollow Road Melville, NY 11747 USA Phone: +1 (631) 940-4213 Fax: +1 (631) 940-4562 EMAIL: <mailto:mconnor at cosmocom.com> mconnor at cosmocom.com URL: <http://www.cosmocom.com/> http://www.cosmocom.com _____________________________________________ Maximize Your Investment in CosmoCom Technology at CosmoCommunity 2007 Join us 30 May - 1 June, 2007 - Hauppauge, New York Learn more and register at <blocked::http://www.cosmocommunity.com///ohttp://www.cosmocommunity.com/> http://www.cosmocommunity.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 22 12:04:50 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: List very slow? Message-ID: <200703221704.l2MH4ojj024032@onyx.spiritone.com> Is there a reason the list is so slow right now? It's taking an hour or better for messages to show up. This was sent at 10:04am Pacific. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 22 21:27:48 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:27:48 -0500 Subject: List very slow? References: <200703221704.l2MH4ojj024032@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <008701c76cf2$dc01cf20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Zane wrote... > Is there a reason the list is so slow right now? It's taking an hour or > better for messages to show up. > > This was sent at 10:04am Pacific. Yup, it's running so slow because a fair number of people on the list couldn't act like adults and I am now having to manually moderate every single post. I have a day job... so posts when get through when I decide to sit down and go through them all. Soon as I get the impression that people can get along and play well, I'll put the list back in to normal mode. In the interim, expect posts to take a day. Grumpy Old Jay From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 22 19:27:48 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 00:27:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: List very slow? In-Reply-To: <200703221704.l2MH4ojj024032@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <744858.72983.qm@web23409.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Errr.. didn't Jay say that he was moderating every post (or were you being sarcastic Jay?) in the email called something like "Emergency moderation on". Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: Is there a reason the list is so slow right now? It's taking an hour or better for messages to show up. This was sent at 10:04am Pacific. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 22 18:06:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:06:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bitsavers subscription In-Reply-To: <4601D998.3090108@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 21, 7 08:19:20 pm Message-ID: <m1HUWN4-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > I suspect I'm like many on this list. I freely admit to having the > > "pack-rat" gene. > > I badly need to unpack my rats :( I have no problem with rats... My cat sees to that :-) > > Major clear-out planned in the coming months, I think! I know the problem all too well. On the other hand I've learnt by bitter past experience that when you get rid of something 'because you'll never find the rest of the system it works with', then said 'rest of system' turns up very soon afterwards -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 22 18:20:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:20:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <4601E9CD.6010608@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 21, 7 07:28:29 pm Message-ID: <m1HUWaV-000J12C@p850ug1> > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > These days, you can get 9V (PP3, 006P, 6F22, whatever you call them) > > batteries very cheaply in the 'Everything's a pound' shops (I assume you > > have similar shops that sell all sorts of things for a dollar a time). 5 > > to 10 of those in series will work as B battery, of couse. > > Well you can still buy a B battery here on this side of the pond. > http://www.tubesandmore.com/ Thing is, peimary batteries go flat and need replacing, often at the most inconvienet possible time. For a homebrew project I'd rather wire up som 9V batteries that I can get just about anywhere than have to order a special battery from across the Pond. > > > Personally, I'd use a mains supply. a 30V transformer (15-0-15, ignoring > > the centre tape or a pair of 15V windings in series) feeding a voltage > > doubler rectifier (2 diodes, 2 capacitors) will give about 85V, ideal for > > most 'battery' valve circuits. > > They also sell a power pack kit too for small radios. Sure. There are companies who sell those in the UK too (either as kits, or assembled), there was a project to make one in, I think, Elektor. Most of the time these run off a low voltage (rechargeable?) battery that runs the valve filaments too. The power pack is a simple transistor osciallator + transformer kind of thing to generate the 90V or so HT. The advantage of that is that the radio (or whatever) remains battery-powered and thus portable. But again, for a homebrew project that's going to be used at your bench only, a mains supply is probably simpler > I suspect if you dig around over there you can scounge up > a better power supply, for the simple reason parts are whole > lot cheaper now than in one's youth. Indeed. There were some sets of articles in, for example, Practical Wireless magaxine in the 1950's that were intended to act as an electronics course. To save money, the mains transformer only provided the heater supply, the HT+ (B+) was obtained by connected mains neutral to the metal chasiss and a half-wave rectifier to mains live. Some of the projects in said 'course' used headphones. I would think a fairly small error in construction, or insulation breakdown, could turn that into a very effecitve electric chair. No thanks! Personally, if I'm going to mess about with valves and their attendant high voltages, I am certainly going to use a double-wound mains transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 22 18:12:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:12:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 21, 7 06:41:53 pm Message-ID: <m1HUWS7-000J11C@p850ug1> > > > > Did any computer built after 1960 NOT have a FORTRAN implementation? [My list of machines delected] > > How many of the above would run *any* type of compile-to-machine- > language HLL compiler? Most of the BASICs were tokenized and > interpreted. Sure. But the roiginal statement was 'any computer'. Not 'any computer that suported a compiler for any language'. Was there ever a Fortran for the HP9000/200 series machines? I'ev not heard of one, but I'd be suprised if it didn't exist. They were aimed at the scientific/laboratory market, they certainly had enough computer power to run Fortran (8 MHZ 68000, 256K or more RAM), and they did suppoer a pascal compiler. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 22 21:03:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:03:31 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <B9BADB1E-7F69-4D82-8020-FD99CEF700AB@microspot.co.uk> References: <200703221147.l2MBjqXM056690@dewey.classiccmp.org> <B9BADB1E-7F69-4D82-8020-FD99CEF700AB@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <46033573.50506@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > Later on we moved the compiler onto a GEC 4080 to cross compile for the > 920. The 920 program grew and I had to modify the compiler so it could > produce the binary output in chunks as it exceeded a 1000 foot roll of > tape, and anyway I was the only person in the office capable of rolling > up a full 1000 foot roll without damaging it. I am guessing you get 8 characters per inch of tape. That is a 93.75 K of data per tape. > Roger. > > . > From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Mar 22 19:11:48 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:11:48 -0400 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:44:42 PDT." <444144.11816.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200703230011.l2N0BmZs007438@mwave.heeltoe.com> William Blair wrote: >> >When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like >> >"single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of >> >simple circuits featuring a single transistor. >> >(or who knows, maybe it was 101 transistor project; I think I was >> >in 4th grade at the time - late '60s) > >Is this it?: > >125 One-Transistor Projects (1970) >http://tinyurl.com/2fzqhm wow! I think that might be it. And for $5 I'm gonna find out. thanks! ps: and thanks to everyone who sent me *excellent* links to some really cool single transistor FM radios! really cool! I don't know why, but the idea of a single transistor FM radio inspires me. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Mar 22 19:21:07 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:21:07 -0400 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:25:55 CDT." <E1HUEs7-0006bu-21@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200703230021.l2N0L7g5009195@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Julian Wolfe" wrote: >What's the controller? My UC07 can and does boot RSTS/E from a CDROM. get out. can you provide an iso image? (i've clearly been hanging around my 11 yo daughter too much when I use phrases like, "get out" :-) Still, I'd like to try - will it boot on an 11/23+? (kdf11-b I think) -brad From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 21:08:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:08:33 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <200703221507.l2MF7dZM004370@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <Your message of "Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:37:10 CDT." <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> >, <200703221507.l2MF7dZM004370@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4602D431.5672.1E2EF604@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Mar 2007 at 11:07, Brad Parker wrote: >> The really fun part was using "load and go fortran". As I recall (dimly), > you'd load the fortran deck and then load your fortran code. I'm pretty > sure it compiled into memory and then just ran it... My memory's a little dim, but without a 1311, (and hence an honest-to- gosh operating system--sort of), I think you were pretty much confined to loading the compiler, which immedately punched a loader deck, then read your program and punched an object deck. You then loaded the punched object deck with the subroutine deck and it ran. I do remember the dreaded "OVERLAP" error--that and the 1622 mulching the compiler deck. Hey, it was barely FORTRAN, but it was FORTRAN! Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 21:20:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:20:51 -0700 Subject: Hmm - In-Reply-To: <200703221459.18525.stevew@ka6s.com> References: <200703221459.18525.stevew@ka6s.com> Message-ID: <4602D713.28770.1E3A365E@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Mar 2007 at 14:59, Steve Wilson wrote: > >4900796 (Somebody will understand this reference) > > Someone is trying to boot Fortran off of the Disk on an IBM 1620 me thinks... Isn't 00796 where all-well-behaved programs went to die? I.e. reload Montior (sort of a CALL EXIT)? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 21:29:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:29:59 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <290DA8BE-B387-4D88-A200-7B7E2099351C@microspot.co.uk> References: <200703212256.l2LMu9rs043079@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <290DA8BE-B387-4D88-A200-7B7E2099351C@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4602D937.11488.1E42931A@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Mar 2007 at 20:34, Roger Holmes wrote: > If a FORMAT statement is not referenced by a READ or WRITE statement, > does it matter if it is compiled incorrectly? Hmm, that's an interesting question. Almost sounds like a koan. > I presume that's why some Basics needed LET before an assignment. BASIC has reserved words. That makes it too easy to figure out what a statement is, particularly if you demand a LET for assignment statements and restrict variables to 2 characters. When you extend BASIC with multicharacter variables and optional LET, you have to admit some sort of lexical control, either by saying that an identifier can't begin with a reserved word, demanding white space or some other such mechanism. Otherwise, something like 400 LETJ=3 becomes ambiguous. Cheers, Chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 22 19:48:22 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:48:22 -0400 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <200703221330.35000.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703212316n5dbf0346qbc4b5d10282b03b@mail.gmail.com> <C73CF035-9F87-4ABA-A93A-870D629E7A69@xlisper.com> <200703221330.35000.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <26259D9F-4DEF-47CA-92F4-E555468B9729@xlisper.com> > It all depends on how the controller is configured. In order to > configure the controller, you'll need to make up a cable with a 50-pin > connector on one end, and a serial connector on the other end, to talk > to the device. There's more details in the manual - > ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/dan/viking_scsi This looks like exactly what I'm looking for but unfortunately I don't seem to be able to get the files from that FTP site. At first I got a directory of what was there but when I tried to copy files I got errors. Now I can't even connect. Is there a trick to getting these files? Thanks, David From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 22 19:52:03 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:52:03 -0400 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <p0624084ac2285d659fb0@[192.168.1.199]> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> <1e1fc3e90703212316n5dbf0346qbc4b5d10282b03b@mail.gmail.com> <C73CF035-9F87-4ABA-A93A-870D629E7A69@xlisper.com> <p0624084ac2285d659fb0@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <ABC10D4B-2BC0-4D4B-8C78-A4AF0BFF9501@xlisper.com> >> Okay, here' s a dumb question. What do I type at the ">>>" prompt >> to boot from the SCSI controller. This is a TD Systems Viking >> controller. I tried just "boot" but that seems to attempt to and >> fail to boot from the ESDI hard drive. I have the MVII technical >> manual and looked up the boot command but all it says is "boot >> <device>" but doesn't say what the choices are for "device". What >> would I enter as a device name to skip over the ESDI drive and >> boot from the CD-ROM attached to the Viking controller? Also, the >> CD-ROM drive is set for unit 4 if that makes a difference. >> >> Thanks, >> David > > IIRC, it should be DUx: It's been a while since I booted my > PDP-11, and I've never put one in a MicroVAX. Here is the manual. > ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/dan/viking_scsi/ > > The important question is what version are your ROMs. I did a > bunch of work with these boards a few years ago, and as near as I > was able to determine it you need a fairly new version of firmware > to use a CD. I believe that you need higher than V3.4 firmware. > I've used DEC RRD-42, Plextor 6x & 8x caddy drives with the Viking > QDT. As I've mentioned before the use of caddy drives is in part a > personal choice as the caddy's are handy since there aren't that > many PDP-11 CD's. I did try a 4x tray drive that worked in my DEC > Alpha's, and it wouldn't work. My controller has a ROM that says "Viking Q/B A4.1" on it. I guess that means it's version 4.1? The CD-ROM drive I'm using has been used on a VAXstation 4000 VLC successfully before. It's a Toshiba TXM3401E1 drive with a caddy. From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Thu Mar 22 19:43:36 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:43:36 -0500 Subject: IBM PS/2 Models 25 and 30 Message-ID: <000c01c76ce4$4b096a40$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> To all who replied, good point, when offering a machine, state the processor manufacturer, number and speed. I'll eventually develope a system... Model 30 is an Intel (AMD) 80286 at 10Mhz Model 25 is an Intel (NEC) 8086 at 8MHz Dan @ Butler, PA From evan at snarc.net Thu Mar 22 21:05:37 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:05:37 -0500 Subject: VCF/Midwest 3 preliminary announcement In-Reply-To: <200703221315.48279.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <003201c76cef$c0123230$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> But if you can't wait that long, then check out VCF East 4.0, June 9-10 in New Jersey. :-) Sorry, Pat! -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Finnegan [mailto:pat at computer-refuge.org] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 12:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: VCF/Midwest 3 preliminary announcement I'm happy to announce that VCF/Midwest 3 is being sponsored this year by Purdue University's Research Computing group, the Rosen Center for Advanced Computing. The event will be a *2 day* event this year, on July 14th and 15th. Sellam is working on getting the web site set up for this year's event, and it should be up shortly, at http://www.vintage.org If you are interested in speaking at the event, exhibiting, or just have a question, please contact me at vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Mar 22 19:07:48 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:07:48 -0500 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <p0624084bc22861187da3@[192.168.1.199]> References: <E1HUEs7-0006bu-21@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <p0624084bc22861187da3@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <002c01c76cdf$4a86bf00$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> It comes up as well as a read-only disk can. I did manage to make installable CDs for each of the layered products though. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:38 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? > > At 11:25 PM -0500 3/21/07, Julian Wolfe wrote: > >What's the controller? My UC07 can and does boot RSTS/E from a CDROM. > > Does it come all the way up, and can you install RSTS/E from it? > > Zane > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 22 21:36:13 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:36:13 -0400 Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available In-Reply-To: <547597.54750.qm@web32509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <547597.54750.qm@web32509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <DA91EE3A-1287-4814-9B98-B6537D777323@neurotica.com> On Mar 22, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Eric Scharff wrote: > Every so often, a discussion of Tiny BASIC appears around here. I > was curious about one of the very first versions of Tiny BASIC, the > 8080 implementation done by Whipple and Arnold, as documented in > the Vol. 1 No. 1 (Jan 1976) issue of Dr. Dobb's Journal (of Tiny > BASIC Calisthenics and Orthodontia) > > This issue contains an octal listing of a Tiny BASIC interpreter > for the 8080, and I couldn't find this version available for > download anywhere. So... I typed it in, and it works! > > I documented my work, which is available at > http://oss.readytalk.com/tb/tinybasic.tar.gz Hey Eric, this is great stuff, thanks for making it available! I'm thinking that I would like to put together a very small Z80-based SBC just for this interpreter. Do you know if this code is ROMable? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From onymouse at garlic.com Thu Mar 22 08:55:24 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:55:24 -0700 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703211904s4b06c0abg26087d77020efb5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk> <m1HUAzu-000J11C@p850ug1> <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> <f4eb766f0703211904s4b06c0abg26087d77020efb5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46028ACC.2050100@garlic.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 3/21/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: >> On 22 Mar 2007 at 0:17, Tony Duell wrote: >> > ... And for that matter the Commodore PET (I know >> > the SuperPET had such a compiler), the C64, etc. >> >> How many of the above would run *any* type of compile-to-machine- >> language HLL compiler? Most of the BASICs were tokenized and >> interpreted. > > There was a C compiler for the C-64. It was terrible and slow, but it > did do small programs. There were also BASIC compilers, but they > weren't terribly fashionable. Mostly folks programmed in interpreted > BASIC or assembler on those platforms (though there _was_ a push for a > while for a language named COMAL, but I avoided it). > I used one of those compilers. What a piece of cr at p. It compiled at run time only, like Alice Pascal, and was terribly slow. The copy protected/write protected compiler disk had to be in the drive while the program was running. I don't recall it being possible to save programs to another disk. It took five minutes to compile "hello world" It could only be useful to learn something about C. Assembler was more fun. Especially when playing with self-modifying code. -- jd Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent. -- Walt Kelly From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 22:24:33 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:24:33 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <460292AA.3020808@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46020329.1040602@bitsavers.org> <460292AA.3020808@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46034871.9010701@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> > I wonder which machine would take the prize for the >> > most done with so little? >> >> In the 60's, probably the LINC >> >> 1 or 2k 12 bit words, LINCtape, typewriter, CRT, and Lab I/O >> >> http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/ijs/epl/LINC.html > > I wonder if it's so clear-cut, though. I mean, people have managed to do > some pretty impressive stuff with some of the 80's 8 bit "home" machines > too - well beyond what anyone ever assumed was possible. > > So there's a temptation to assume that the "winner" would be an older > machine (60s or 70s), but it might not be so easy as that... (although I > suppose the "rules" should confine things to official hardware > configurations only, which perhaps rules out any newer machines that > have had things like IDE hard drives added by their owners) I would have guessed something with plugboards for programming. Possibly drum-memory. Peace... Sridhar From rivie at ridgenet.net Thu Mar 22 21:35:09 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> References: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0703221934460.21067@stench.no.domain> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, David Betz wrote: > I have a MicroVAX II that is able to boot into Ultrix 4.3 single user mode. > If I type "mount" it says that /dev/ra0a is mounted on /. I assume that is my > ESDI hard drive since the drives plugged into my SDC-RQD11-EC ESDI controller > are the only ones plugged into my system. So, my question is, what would the > second drive on that controller be called? Would it be /dev/ra0b or > /dev/ra1a? In other words, what do the "0" and "a" parts of the device name > mean? Is "0" the controller and "a" the device on that controller? 0 is the drive and a is the partition. However, bear in mind that (this being Unix) the *real* magic is done in the directory entry. If you take a close look, you'll see that /dev/ra0a is a block special device with two parts: the device number (index into the devsw[] array) and unit number. You can create a special file with *any* name that maps to the same device as /dev/ra0a. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 22 22:26:39 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: SPAM Spoofing In-Reply-To: <200703221718.l2MHIsPX024420@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703221718.l2MHIsPX024420@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200703230330.XAA05772@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I run my own private mailserver on my OpenVMS 7.3-2 system. [...] > Someone started sending out spam yesterday that [is resulting in > bounces hammering this machine] I don't know whether there's any way you can use it, but I wrote an SMTP front-end that was designed for precisely this kind of situation - to turn away invalid-local-part mail very very cheaply (and it does that spectacularly well in my experience). Unless your VMS machine has a C compiler setup that supports sockets and a few other Unixisms, it won't run there, though; you'd need something a bit more Unixy. If you have one and can use it to front for your VMS box, I'll be happy to help you set up my shim on it. (I've never heard of anyone else trying it, so it probably has some local idioms I'm not aware of in it and you may well need a hand with them.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From RMeenaks at olf.com Thu Mar 22 19:19:55 2007 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:19:55 -0400 Subject: A request... References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1063@cpexchange.olf.com> Out of respect, can we please change the subject to something else. We have techno-babbled about a lot of things other than John W. Backus... Thanks, Ram From rmurphy at itm-inst.com Thu Mar 22 19:50:45 2007 From: rmurphy at itm-inst.com (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> References: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703222044500.2457@mail.itm-inst.com> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, David Betz wrote: > I have a MicroVAX II that is able to boot into Ultrix 4.3 single user mode. > If I type "mount" it says that /dev/ra0a is mounted on /. I assume that is my > ESDI hard drive since the drives plugged into my SDC-RQD11-EC ESDI controller > are the only ones plugged into my system. So, my question is, what would the > second drive on that controller be called? Would it be /dev/ra0b or > /dev/ra1a? In other words, what do the "0" and "a" parts of the device name > mean? Is "0" the controller and "a" the device on that controller? For /dev/raxy, x = the drive number and y = the partition. IIRC, the convention for Ultrix is that a is the first partition and the c partition covers the whole drive. Your second disk could therefore be /dev/ra1a or /dev/ra1c assuming a reasonable mapping from drive number to MSCP unit number. > > I also have a TD Systems Viking SCSI controller in the system with a CD-ROM > drive attached. What device name would I use for that? I'd also like to know > how to address that drive from the MVII boot prompt so that I can boot > directly off of the CD-ROM. That depends on the controller and how it emulates MSCP devices. At the console ">>>" prompt, DUBx (where "x" is the drive number on the second controller)might work. I don't think any of the MicroVAX-II boot roms supported "show device" at the console, but you could try that to see what you get. -Rick From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 22:43:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:43:06 -0500 Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> References: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703222043k1b1b28cei748049cc14a710c8@mail.gmail.com> On 3/22/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote: > I have a MicroVAX II that is able to boot into Ultrix 4.3 single user > mode. If I type "mount" it says that /dev/ra0a is mounted on /. I > assume that is my ESDI hard drive since the drives plugged into my > SDC-RQD11-EC ESDI controller are the only ones plugged into my > system. So, my question is, what would the second drive on that > controller be called? Would it be /dev/ra0b or /dev/ra1a? In other > words, what do the "0" and "a" parts of the device name mean? Is "0" > the controller and "a" the device on that controller? With BSDish nomenclature, the 'ra' is the radriver (MSCP), the digit is the drive unit number, and the letter is the partition. The first partition is 'a', and for a booted disk, it'll be '/'. The second partition is 'b', commonly the swap partition, 'c' is the whole disk, and other letters have other traditional uses, but they aren't set in stone. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/disk-organization.html If I'm remembering correctly, we used to arrange Ultrix/BSDish machines like... ra0a - / ra0b - swap ra0d - /usr ra0g - /usr/users (before home dirs started appearing in /home). If you started adding other drives, you might mount /usr/users on its own drive (ra1c, say, for the entire disk), then use ra0g or a combination of ra0e and ra0f for /tmp or /var or /var/spool, to help lower the risk of unpriv'ed processes from filling up /, which is a very, very bad thing. > I also have a TD Systems Viking SCSI controller in the system with a > CD-ROM drive attached. What device name would I use for that? I'd > also like to know how to address that drive from the MVII boot prompt > so that I can boot directly off of the CD-ROM. Hmm... I never used a CD-ROM under Ultrix, so I can't be sure what slice you'd use (if any), but if the CD-ROM is on a different controller than the boot drive, the second letter should get bumped up, so if you booted ra0a, the CD-ROM drive might be rb0, but I suppose it depends. I also have limited experience with multiple drive controllers in the same box - we had small installations with typically one large drive controller (MSCP or ESDI or RK611), and probably one small drive controller (RL11), some number of communications ports, sync and async, and that's about it. ISTR there are multiple ways of building device names under BSDish flavors of UNIX, so my memories of Ultrix might be fuzzing over into memories of 4BSD and SunOS, if there are any variations. System V, like Solaris 2, uses a clearer scheme c0t0d0s0 for "controller 0, target (like SCSI address) 0, disk (like SCSI LUN) 0, slice (partition) 0". Back when Solaris 1 (SunOS) was being eclipsed by Solaris 2.0, I remember some grumbling about how verbose the scheme is, but on the bright side, it requires less deep understanding to read than "ra0d" vs "rc3g", etc. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 22 22:31:00 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> References: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200703230340.XAA05805@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a MicroVAX II that is able to boot into Ultrix 4.3 single user > mode. If I type "mount" it says that /dev/ra0a is mounted on /. I > assume that is my ESDI hard drive since the drives plugged into my > SDC-RQD11-EC ESDI controller are the only ones plugged into my > system. Then that seems like a reasonable inference, yes. :-) Or rather, it is one of the partitions on that disk. ra0a is just one of the (probably) eight possible partitions on ra0. On some systems, the partition table was compiled in; on others, it was read off the disk. I don't know which Ultrix 4.3 was. > So, my question is, what would the second drive on that controller be > called? Would it be /dev/ra0b or /dev/ra1a? It would be ra1; the partitios on it would be /dev/ra1a through /dev/ra1h. (As far as I can recall, Ultrix did not have any /dev/ entries for the disks in their own right, only for the partitions on them. In this respect it was like most other Unices of the time.) > In other words, what do the "0" and "a" parts of the device name > mean? Is "0" the controller and "a" the device on that controller? Good guess, but not quite. "ra" is the device type, or, more precisely, the name of the driver responsible for it. "0" indicates that it's the first "ra" device (these things are normally numbered starting from 0). "a" indicates that you're dealing with partition #1 (partitions are normally named with letters, a thorugh h in most cases in that era). You may note this device name does not include any part specifying what controller ra0 is attached to. This is normal; Unix device probing then (and in many systems now as well) hides the path through which a device is attached to the system, exposing only the end result - the device itself. > I also have a TD Systems Viking SCSI controller in the system with a > CD-ROM drive attached. What device name would I use for that? I don't know; I'm not familiar with Ultrix naming conventions for CD drives. Probably ra1 or cd0 or some such. > I'd also like to know how to address that drive from the MVII boot > prompt so that I can boot directly off of the CD-ROM. This is another issue entirely; the naming used by the ROMs does not bear much relation to the names used by Ultrix. I also don't know that SCSI controller; it might or might not be bootable, and if not, there is no name you can use to boot from it. It probably needs to speak MSCP to be bootable, though it's been too long for me to remember the ROM naming scheme for MSCP devices. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 22 22:53:05 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:53:05 -0500 Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available References: <547597.54750.qm@web32509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <DA91EE3A-1287-4814-9B98-B6537D777323@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <00c801c76cfe$c3dcd0f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've been hunting for a Tiny BASIC interpreter for the 6502, written in 6502 assembler with source. I haven't been able to find such a thing. Anyone have one floating around? Jay From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 22 22:21:28 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:21:28 -0500 Subject: Hmm - In-Reply-To: <200703221459.18525.stevew@ka6s.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070322222116.0cc6f7a0@localhost> 173000G ? At 02:59 PM 3/22/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >From Tom Watson - > >Sorry wrong bits!! Wrong code set! > >11101000 11001001 11000111 11001000 11100011 01000000 11010110 11010101 > >01011010 > > > >4900796 (Somebody will understand this reference) > >Someone is trying to boot Fortran off of the Disk on an IBM 1620 me thinks... > >Steve Wilson ----- 216. [Literature] Publishers are so conservative, I'm surprised they don't still use scribes writing on wet clay slabs. --David Brin --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 23:13:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:13:33 -0500 Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <200703230340.XAA05805@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> <200703230340.XAA05805@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703222113o10cf7fd2y8bff1b0d005f994a@mail.gmail.com> On 3/22/07, der Mouse <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote: > David Betz wrote: > > I also have a TD Systems Viking SCSI controller in the system with a > > CD-ROM drive attached. What device name would I use for that? > > I don't know; I'm not familiar with Ultrix naming conventions for CD > drives. Probably ra1 or cd0 or some such. I don't know about Ultrix 4.3 in particular, but my memories of Ultrix 1 and 2, you might have to inspect the results of the kernel rebuilt to see what device major/minor numbers map to the CD-ROM drive, or more specifically, to the secondary MSCP controller. It really doesn't matter to the kernel what the device files are named in /dev, just the major/minor numbers tacked onto those device files. You can also inspect, IIRC, /dev/MAKENOD or something similar, the script that goes out and creates device files as required. There might be some mention of CD-ROM drives under an Ultrix as new as 4.3. > > I'd also like to know how to address that drive from the MVII boot > > prompt so that I can boot directly off of the CD-ROM. > > This is another issue entirely; the naming used by the ROMs does not > bear much relation to the names used by Ultrix. I also don't know that > SCSI controller; it might or might not be bootable, and if not, there > is no name you can use to boot from it. It probably needs to speak > MSCP to be bootable, though it's been too long for me to remember the > ROM naming scheme for MSCP devices. In general, booting an MSCP device from the "lazy sargent" prompt (>>>), you'd have to know details about the specific machine to be exactly right, but I'd start with "B DUB0", for the "DU" device, second controller, drive 0. If the CD-ROM happens to be numbered 6, which was common in Sun boxes (in case you borrowed such a drive), you might also try "B DUB6". In newer MicroVAXen than I've ever owned, I think there's a way to get the ROMs to dump out what MSCP unit names/numbers respond to some sort of probe. With older machines, you just have to "know" what device names are going to be valid. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 22 23:25:16 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <200703230021.l2N0L7g5009195@mwave.heeltoe.com> from Brad Parker at "Mar 22, 7 08:21:07 pm" Message-ID: <200703230425.l2N4PGCH013252@floodgap.com> > > What's the controller? My UC07 can and does boot RSTS/E from a CDROM. > > get out. can you provide an iso image? > > (i've clearly been hanging around my 11 yo daughter too much when I use > phrases like, "get out" :-) Get out. ;) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If the French were really intelligent, they'd speak English. -- W. Sheed --- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 22 23:26:05 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available In-Reply-To: <00c801c76cfe$c3dcd0f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Mar 22, 7 10:53:05 pm" Message-ID: <200703230426.l2N4Q5D0017638@floodgap.com> > I've been hunting for a Tiny BASIC interpreter for the 6502, written in 6502 > assembler with source. I haven't been able to find such a thing. Anyone have > one floating around? In assembler? No, but I have a KIM binary here: http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/kim-1/emu.html It's in Commodore PRG format; just take off the first two bytes for a raw binary. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Two rules for ultimate life satisfaction: 1) Don't tell people everything. - From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 23:37:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:37:55 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN (was: JB passes) In-Reply-To: <290DA8BE-B387-4D88-A200-7B7E2099351C@microspot.co.uk> References: <200703212256.l2LMu9rs043079@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <290DA8BE-B387-4D88-A200-7B7E2099351C@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4602F733.6196.1EB7B4FE@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Mar 2007 at 20:34, Roger Holmes wrote: > Thanks for that, I had completely missed what you were saying, though > I still don't know what a PTR is, except for a Paper Tape Reader or > an abbreviation for PoinTeR. A bug report? Don't feel bad--CDC couldn't even agree on the name. Special Systems used PTR (Program Trouble Report); Common Products used PSR (Program Status Report). Neither group understood what the other meant. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 23:48:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:48:35 -0700 Subject: Hmm - In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070322222116.0cc6f7a0@localhost> References: <200703221459.18525.stevew@ka6s.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070322222116.0cc6f7a0@localhost> Message-ID: <4602F9B3.6316.1EC17551@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Mar 2007 at 22:21, Tom Peters wrote: > 173000G ? No, honest--I just checked my own memory. 4900796 is, in fact, what 1620 SPS assembled for a CALL EXIT statement. Essentially a B7 to MONCAL, which reloaded the Monitor I operating system. Cheers, Chuck From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Mar 23 00:06:05 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:06:05 -0700 Subject: Sol terminal in Polular Electronics July 1976 References: <200703230111.l2N1AYEf068627@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000b01c76d08$fa85d7f0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> > From: John S > Subject: Sol terminal in Practical Electronics July 1976 > > for Practical Electronics July 1976. This features a 8080A computer and > refers to the SOL terminal. Is there any relation between this computer > and > the SOL 20 computer? > Here is how Stan Veit remembers it. http://www.pc-history.org/sol.htm The stripped-down terminal version Lee (Felsenstein) designed for the magazine article had a personality module, but only had limited RAM memory. It was still more intelligent than most "glass teletypes," so it was called The SOL Intelligent Terminal. The full version was to come in two styles. The less expensive one had a simple keyboard and only one slot for expansion. It was called The SOL-10, and very few were ever built. The second model was a complete computer with an excellent keyboard and a card cage with five slots. It was called The SOL-20, and provided enough memory for general computer applications. When the prototype was complete, the Processor Technology crew headed for New York City to demonstrate it to Les Solomon. The machine had been named The SOL, in his honor. When Bob Marsh revealed the name to me, I called Les and joked, "They're naming the new machine after you - The LES Intelligent Terminal!" Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Mar 23 05:51:17 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:51:17 -0400 Subject: OT: SPAM Spoofing In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:18:54 PDT." <200703221718.l2MHIsPX024420@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200703231051.l2NApH2p004929@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Is there anything I can do about this? Originally I moved from sendmail to qmail with magic-smtpd because it allowed me to filter at the SMTP level inbound names (and reject them before a bounce was generated). http://www.linuxmagic.com/opensource/magicmail/magic-smtpd/ I thought someone here wrote a proxy to do that also (not sure) I've since moved to postfix with "grey listing" using postgrey, which seems to work pretty well. I think until you turn on grey listing you're going to be unhappy. I seem long, relentless streams of bogus connections and bogus names all day long... At a minimum you need to be filtering names at the SMTP connection time. (translation - put something in front of openvms and relay) -brad From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Fri Mar 23 07:06:55 2007 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:06:55 -0400 Subject: List very slow? In-Reply-To: <008701c76cf2$dc01cf20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200703221704.l2MH4ojj024032@onyx.spiritone.com> <008701c76cf2$dc01cf20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4603C2DF.3020808@splab.cas.neu.edu> I don't think the list is slow at all, not when you consider that there is certainly an option that Jay simply does not have time to moderate it and could shut it off. I seem to remember Jay asking for help to moderate the list a while back. I wonder if anybody stepped up to the plate? I don't consider Jay grumpy at all, since he is providing wonderful services free (this list AND web hosting). Don't know about the old part. I wish I had the time and expertise to help out. Until then, all I can say is: Jay, thanks for whatever time you can devote to the list. (purposely untrimmed, yes, I know the thread was a question, not a complaint. Just hate to have Jay think now we are complaining about the services he provides.) Joe Heck Jay West wrote: > Zane wrote... > >> Is there a reason the list is so slow right now? It's taking an hour or >> better for messages to show up. >> >> This was sent at 10:04am Pacific. > > > Yup, it's running so slow because a fair number of people on the list > couldn't act like adults and I am now having to manually moderate every > single post. > > I have a day job... so posts when get through when I decide to sit down > and go through them all. Soon as I get the impression that people can > get along and play well, I'll put the list back in to normal mode. > > In the interim, expect posts to take a day. > > Grumpy Old Jay > > > From pt at new.rr.com Fri Mar 23 07:37:52 2007 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 07:37:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0703221934460.21067@stench.no.domain> References: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0703221934460.21067@stench.no.domain> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703230733380.18569@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, David Betz wrote: >> I have a MicroVAX II that is able to boot into Ultrix 4.3 single user mode. >> If I type "mount" it says that /dev/ra0a is mounted on /. I assume that is >> my ESDI hard drive since the drives plugged into my SDC-RQD11-EC ESDI >> controller are the only ones plugged into my system. So, my question is, >> what would the second drive on that controller be called? Would it be >> /dev/ra0b or /dev/ra1a? In other words, what do the "0" and "a" parts of >> the device name mean? Is "0" the controller and "a" the device on that >> controller? Also keep in mind you'll have to rebuild the kernel configure file and recompile the kernel if the current kernel doesn't have a line in it to see the other drive. Dynamic device support didn't exist in early unices, I think OSF1/Digital Unix/Tru64 (ultrix's Alpha successor) didn't even support that until 4.x. Paul From eds_2 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 23 07:46:54 2007 From: eds_2 at yahoo.com (Eric Scharff) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available Message-ID: <20070323124654.52399.qmail@web32512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > I'm thinking that I would like to put together a very small > Z80-based SBC just for this interpreter. Do you know if this > code is ROMable? I'm reasonably sure it isn't ROMable. The good news is that the user entered program is stored immediately above the end of the listing at 1800H. Unfortunately, the input buffer appears to be stored somewhere early within the address space of the listing (1049H, I think), and although I'm still disassembling the code, I half suspect that there is some self-modifying code in there. At first, I even thought there was some self-modifying code in the intermediate language, but I think I was misinterpreting what was going on. In any case, there are definitely several writes within the 1000H - 17FFH space of the code, but hopefully I'll know soon how extensively one would have to modify this to make it ROMable. -Eric ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Mar 23 09:01:21 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:01:21 -0400 Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <200703230340.XAA05805@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> <200703230340.XAA05805@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <92B99B07-BAB4-4D8A-BD6A-46F38D97F991@xlisper.com> > Or rather, it is one of the partitions on that disk. ra0a is just one > of the (probably) eight possible partitions on ra0. On some systems, > the partition table was compiled in; on others, it was read off the > disk. I don't know which Ultrix 4.3 was. Is there any way to display the partition table of each disk from single user mode? From steve at radiorobots.com Fri Mar 23 09:19:46 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:19:46 -0500 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <200703230011.l2N0BmZs007438@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703230011.l2N0BmZs007438@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4603E202.6050602@radiorobots.com> Brad Parker wrote: > William Blair wrote: > >>>>When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like >>>>"single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of >>>>simple circuits featuring a single transistor. >>>>(or who knows, maybe it was 101 transistor project; I think I was >>>>in 4th grade at the time - late '60s) >> >>Is this it?: >> >>125 One-Transistor Projects (1970) >>http://tinyurl.com/2fzqhm > > > wow! > > I think that might be it. And for $5 I'm gonna find out. thanks! > > ps: and thanks to everyone who sent me *excellent* links to some really > cool single transistor FM radios! really cool! > > I don't know why, but the idea of a single transistor FM radio inspires me. > > -brad > > Save your $5; that's the book i have and am digging for. Steve From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Fri Mar 23 09:32:28 2007 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:32:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available In-Reply-To: <00c801c76cfe$c3dcd0f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <547597.54750.qm@web32509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <DA91EE3A-1287-4814-9B98-B6537D777323@neurotica.com> <00c801c76cfe$c3dcd0f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703230831450.350@porky.vax-11.org> Would enhanced basic work? http://members.lycos.co.uk/leeedavison/6502/ehbasic/index.html Clint On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Jay West wrote: > I've been hunting for a Tiny BASIC interpreter for the 6502, written in 6502 > assembler with source. I haven't been able to find such a thing. Anyone have > one floating around? > > Jay > > From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Mar 23 10:09:06 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:09:06 -0500 Subject: Hmm - In-Reply-To: <4602F9B3.6316.1EC17551@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070322222116.0cc6f7a0@localhost> <200703221459.18525.stevew@ka6s.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070322222116.0cc6f7a0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070323100632.0b341ec8@localhost> At 09:48 PM 3/22/2007 -0700, you wrote: >On 22 Mar 2007 at 22:21, Tom Peters wrote: > > > 173000G ? Sorry, wrong universe. I used to have a DEC LSI-11/02 type box with no -12 power supply. Everything worked just peachy, except that the little inverter that powered the boot ROMs didn't wake up fast enough. So the machine would always power up to an ODT prompt. 173000G would boot from RK05, and that has always stuck in my brain. >No, honest--I just checked my own memory. 4900796 is, in fact, what >1620 SPS assembled for a > > CALL EXIT > >statement. Essentially a B7 to MONCAL, which reloaded the Monitor I >operating system. > >Cheers, >Chuck ----- 383. [Philosophy] A man's life is what his thoughts make it. --Marcus Aurelius --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Mar 23 10:30:52 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:30:52 -0400 Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available Message-ID: <0JFD00LLQ4E9J334@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tiny BASIC Extended available > From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org > Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:32:28 -0600 (MDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > > >Would enhanced basic work? > >http://members.lycos.co.uk/leeedavison/6502/ehbasic/index.html > >Clint > >On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Jay West wrote: > >> I've been hunting for a Tiny BASIC interpreter for the 6502, written in 6502 >> assembler with source. I haven't been able to find such a thing. Anyone have >> one floating around? >> >> Jay >> >> I have Tom Pitmans Tinybasic for 6502 is that what you want? If so email me direct for a copy. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 23 11:35:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:35:21 -0800 Subject: OT: SPAM Spoofing In-Reply-To: <200703231051.l2NApH2p004929@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703231051.l2NApH2p004929@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <p06240854c229adc56b91@[192.168.1.199]> At 6:51 AM -0400 3/23/07, Brad Parker wrote: >I think until you turn on grey listing you're going to be unhappy. I >seem long, relentless streams of bogus connections and bogus names all >day long... At a minimum you need to be filtering names at the SMTP >connection time. (translation - put something in front of openvms and relay) I'm now able to check and reject emails with invalid usernames 12 characters or less, AND 13 characters or more (what I was unable to do). Of course this required an emergency upgrade last night to OpenVMS V8.3, and staying up to 1am. I'm more than a little ticked HP didn't consider this a bug, and didn't fix it (I already was even prior to this). The Good: I now have a current tape backup of my system disk I'm back on a smaller system disk (18Gb vs 36Gb) I've finally gotten the upgrade to 8.3 done, and fully patched I've cut my problems from spam down to stuff sent to the postmaster account (I'd actually disabled this email address but re-enabled it last night, as if I'm ever going to get valid email to it, now is probably the time). The Bad: Still getting quite a bit of activity, though it doesn't seem to be a continuous flood like last night I have to upgrade Oracle RDB to a version that will run on VMS 8.3 Thoughts: HP's tying TCPIP upgrades to VMS upgrades is a problem. I was perfectly happy on 7.3-2 (which will continue to be a fully supported version for quite some time), and this gives me even more reason to consider ripping out HP TCPIP and installing Process Software's Multinet stack, which will likely be coupled with PMDF and their Anti-Spam solution. Question: How common is it to see problems where a spammer is apparently spoofing both the domain name and the IP address? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 23 10:42:07 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:42:07 -0500 Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available In-Reply-To: <676815.70159.qm@web32508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200703231542.l2NFg6LL027635@hosting.monisys.ca> > Every so often, a discussion of Tiny BASIC appears around here. I was curious about one of the very > I hope this is of interest to people. I'm very interested in other versions of Tiny BASIC out > there, if someone has ever typed this listing before, etc. I'm familiar with Tom Pittman's work, > but other resources would be greatly appreciated. This isn't based on any other system, but it might be of interest to you... In the late 70's, or possibly very early 80's, I wrote a "tiny" BASIC interpreter for the University of New Brunswicks computer club - a few guys building 8080, 8085 and Z80 based computers. The basic is a bit non-standard, having been somewhat influenced by my facination with APL at time - not that there were any real standards to draw on then. It is an integer only BASIC and weighs in at 3K. For what it is, it was fairly capable. It was originally designed as a complete system and was accompanied by a 1K monitor program which provided I/O drivers for a parallel keyboard, 16x64 memory mapped display and an 8251 serial port. The monitor provides memory dump/edit etc. and an intel-hex format download capability. The two were designed to fit into 4K of ROM and require only minimal RAM - our wirewrap systems typically had a pair of 2716s and a few pairs of 2114s. The video display was designed by one of the guys, using 8 2102s (1K ram) and all TTL for the controller. I think it has a 2716 for the character generator as well. [It also had a hardware bug where blanking got turned on 1/2way through the last character on each line - so the last char would not display correctly. We never noticed because my video driver also had a bug where it wrapped lines at 63 characters instead of 64. I recall sometime later noticing this and fixing it only to discover the hardware bug.] Although it was originally designed as a companaion to the 1K monitor, the BASIC was assembled as a separate module, and only calls a few subroutines from the monitor (get char, put char, download record etc.) - It is fairly easy to decouple from the monitor and run stand- alone in a different environment. If you want to see it run, I have a version of it (without the monitor) implemented under the DMF operating system which I wrote for my Altair - you can run DMF on my Altair simulator from my site, and the 3K BASIC interpreter executable is there on the DMF boot disk image. I also have the documentation for the BASIC on the DMF documentation disk, and the full source code (8080 ASM) on one of the DMF source disks - you can look at these under the simulator, or use the NSI utility to extract the files to PC files which you may find easier to look at. > Hey Eric, this is great stuff, thanks for making it available! > I'm thinking that I would like to put together a very small Z80-based > SBC just for this interpreter. Do you know if this code is ROMable? As noted above, my BASIC was designed to go in ROM. If anyone is interested in looking at the original stand-alone version, I can post the source and document somewhere. It's quite well commented (and a bit humerous in places), but do keep in mind that is is some of my earliest code... It was maintained through a few following years, and is quite stable/bug-free, and would be a good place to start if you want a little stand-alone x80 system with BASIC and a monitor. Here's an extract from the opening comment in the BASIC.ASM file which very briefly describes the implemented language: * BASIC COMMANDS * * CLEAR, DATA, DIM, END, EXIT, FOR, * GOSUB, GOSUB(N), GOTO, GOTO(N), IF/THEN, INPUT, * LET, LIF/THEN, LIST, LOAD, NEW, NEXT, * ORDER, PLOT, PRINT, READ, REM, RETURN, * RUN, SAVE, SIZE, STOP, USR, <EDIT> * BASIC OPERATORS * * NUMERIC: + - * % / \ & | ; ( ) < = > == -= <= >= * CHARACTER: + = == -= * OTHER: : # $ @ ? [ ] ( ) * BASIC VARIABLES * * A - Z ......... 16 BIT SIMPLE INTEGER VARIABLES. * A$ - Z$ ....... SIMPLE CHARACTER VARIABLES. < 36 CHARS * A[N] - Z[N] ... 16 BIT INTEGER ARRAYS. * @[N] .......... PSEUDO MEMORY REFERENCE ARRAY. * @[N]$ ......... NUMERIC TO CHARACTER CONVERSION.(CHR$) * ? ............. PSEUDO RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR. * MEMORY MAP * * 0000-03FF 1K SYSTEM MONITOR (IN ROM). * 0400-0FFF 3K BASIC INTERPRETER (IN ROM). * 1000-13FF 1K MEMORY MAPPED 64*16 VIDEO DISPLAY * 1400-15FF 0.5K POINTERS, STACKS, BUFFERS. * 1600-19FF 1K VARIABLES AND POINTERS. * 1A00-FFFF PROGRAM AND ARRAY STORAGE. Btw: The memory map shows what we implemented for our systems, but you could easily adjust the code to accomodate a different layout. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Mar 23 10:50:57 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:50:57 +0000 Subject: OT: SPAM Spoofing In-Reply-To: <200703231051.l2NApH2p004929@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703221718.l2MHIsPX024420@onyx.spiritone.com> <200703231051.l2NApH2p004929@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703230850g2c813a1awd96420a61e3e2617@mail.gmail.com> I used to run my own mailserver, albeit on FreeBSD. The sheer quantity of SPAM and other junk addressed to, and from, my domains was astounding. From was worse, as I got all the bounces, which are technically legitimate messages. It was a constant battle. I gave up in the end and pointed the MX over to google-apps-for-domains. The spam-filter seems pretty good, and it's not sucking up my bandwidth. (And at least with google you don't have to transfer the whole DNS like some hositng providers want.) If you are sure you want to run your own mailserver, I'd agree - put something in front. If you haven't got a UNIX or Linux box already on your network, you should be able to find a cheap Linux based router you can put your choice of MTA on.. Rob On 23/03/07, Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> wrote: > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > >Is there anything I can do about this? > > Originally I moved from sendmail to qmail with magic-smtpd because it > allowed me to filter at the SMTP level inbound names (and reject them before > a bounce was generated). > > http://www.linuxmagic.com/opensource/magicmail/magic-smtpd/ > > I thought someone here wrote a proxy to do that also (not sure) > > I've since moved to postfix with "grey listing" using postgrey, which seems > to work pretty well. > > I think until you turn on grey listing you're going to be unhappy. I > seem long, relentless streams of bogus connections and bogus names all > day long... At a minimum you need to be filtering names at the SMTP > connection time. (translation - put something in front of openvms and relay) > > -brad > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 23 11:40:30 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:40:30 -0800 Subject: List very slow? In-Reply-To: <4603C2DF.3020808@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <200703221704.l2MH4ojj024032@onyx.spiritone.com> <008701c76cf2$dc01cf20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4603C2DF.3020808@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <p06240855c229b2778543@[192.168.1.199]> At 8:06 AM -0400 3/23/07, joe heck wrote: >I don't think the list is slow at all, not when you consider that >there is certainly an option that Jay simply does not have time to >moderate it and could shut it off. I seem to remember Jay asking >for help to moderate the list a while back. I wonder if anybody >stepped up to the plate? Knowing why the list is slow, I agree it isn't that slow. I know I don't typically read as many CLASSICCMP messages as made it through yesterday. As frustrating as I find this situation to be, I have to say, I totally agree with Jay's decision, this list had gotten totally out of control and something needed to be done. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Mar 23 10:49:55 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:49:55 -0400 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <20070322011049.GA31415@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> References: <4601A3AC.2050502@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20070321101331.019b99e0@att.net> <460126B7.1161.17A156B8@cclist.sydex.com> <4601A3AC.2050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070323111214.012bd138@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Patrick Finnegan may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 05:29:16PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >On 21 Mar 2007 at 10:19, Steve Shumaker wrote: >.... At one time, Keytronics made some of > > >the better keyboards, then moved their operation out of the US and > > >sold out to Honeywell and marketed what amounts to looks-just-like- > > >every-other-far-East-keyboards. To give credit where credit is due, even the elcrappo Keytronics keyboards were marginally better than everyone else's (including Micro$oft's) elcrappo keyboards. I'm not saying I'd use one on a daily basis, but I'd keep a Keytronics as a "spare of a spare of a spare" before I'd keep any other sub-$25 (new) keyboard. Thankfully, I got at least 10 Model M's for $5 each from the local Uni when they were clearing stuff out about 5-6 years ago, and still have a few spares up in the attic. Some of the keyboards were nonworking (stuck keys, etc) so I keep them for spare parts, but obviously, the working keyboards don't need repairs often. ;-) > > http://www.pckeyboard.com/ for the Model M. Still being made. > >I've never found a good reason to buy a new one. The old ones seemingly >more plentiful than AOL CDs, and they hardly ever break (until you spill >some unfortunate liquid into them, at least. :) Or drop them 15 feet onto concrete. Yes, it happened to me once. I suppose I *could* have fixed it, but with enough $5 spares, why bother? ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Mar 23 12:02:15 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:02:15 -0400 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <26259D9F-4DEF-47CA-92F4-E555468B9729@xlisper.com> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> <200703221330.35000.pat@computer-refuge.org> <26259D9F-4DEF-47CA-92F4-E555468B9729@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200703231302.16045.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 22 March 2007 20:48, David Betz wrote: > > It all depends on how the controller is configured. In order to > > configure the controller, you'll need to make up a cable with a > > 50-pin connector on one end, and a serial connector on the other > > end, to talk to the device. There's more details in the manual - > > ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/dan/viking_scsi > > This looks like exactly what I'm looking for but unfortunately I > don't seem to be able to get the files from that FTP site. At first I > got a directory of what was there but when I tried to copy files I > got errors. Now I can't even connect. Is there a trick to getting > these files? My guess would be that you need to use passive ftp, but aren't with whatever you're using to connect. The site works just fine for me. Since they're fairly small, I've mirrored the files here: http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/viking_scsi/ Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 23 12:42:26 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:42:26 -0700 Subject: One last comment on Burroughs and crossbar switches Message-ID: <46041182.4010008@bitsavers.org> A little more digging, and the crossbar in the B 5000 series idea came from the D 825 SAGE backup system AN/GSA-51 ref. Burroughs B 5000 conference Sep 85, archived by CBI (page 18) other references can be found on line to the D 825 being the first multiprocessor, and to the memory/processor switch http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/notes/35cross.html http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/buic.htm http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/people/randy.carpenter/folklore/v3n1.html From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Mar 23 12:21:11 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:21:11 -0400 Subject: Can the MicroVAX II or KDJ11-A boot off of a SCSI CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <200703231302.16045.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0E47072E-9477-4BB0-BF16-07FB0333824D@xlisper.com> <200703221330.35000.pat@computer-refuge.org> <26259D9F-4DEF-47CA-92F4-E555468B9729@xlisper.com> <200703231302.16045.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <2E36E047-91F8-4556-B23F-9E384DAF0EAB@xlisper.com> > Since they're fairly small, I've mirrored the files here: > http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/viking_scsi/ Thanks, Pat! From sdc695 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 23 12:54:07 2007 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hmm - Message-ID: <532170.1585.qm@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:20:51 -0700, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 22 Mar 2007 at 14:59, Steve Wilson wrote: > > > >4900796 (Somebody will understand this reference) > > > > Someone is trying to boot Fortran off of the Disk on an IBM 1620 me thinks... > > Isn't 00796 where all-well-behaved programs went to die? I.e. reload > Monitor (sort of a CALL EXIT)? > > --Chuck We have a winner. Just to add to the trivia, to boot the disk you needed a few more characters: 3400032007013600032007024902402111963611300102 Which if you were on a model 2, you needed to make sure that indirect addressing was turned on (nothing worked right if you didn't!). After doing that a few times, you remembered it pretty well. OB Fortran reference: There were several "load & go" Fortrans available for the 1620. The one I liked the best was Witran. It fit into a 20k machine, but was interpreted. Still not too bad for a Fortran. The best was the Monitor II Fortran II. It generated automatic floating point instructions, and used index registers (only for the compiler I think). Pretty speedy. The hardware floating point on a 1620-II was faster than the software on the (next generation) IBM 1130 (I used that too). The 1620's bonus was that standard precision (in floating point) was 8 significant digits. If you really felt ambitious, you could go MUCH higher (28 digits with Fortran-II). Few machines today can match that in hardware! -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 23 14:22:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:22:47 -0700 Subject: Hmm - In-Reply-To: <532170.1585.qm@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> References: <532170.1585.qm@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4603C697.20971.21E1D1D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Mar 2007 at 10:54, Tom Watson wrote: > We have a winner. > Just to add to the trivia, to boot the disk you needed a few more characters: > 3400032007013600032007024902402111963611300102 > Which if you were on a model 2, you needed to make sure that indirect > addressing was turned on (nothing worked right if you didn't!). Never got to use a Model II; only used Cadets, (but with indirect addressing and automatic divide). Ran Monitor I, which loaded pretty much the same way--although my boot card had a "5" instead of a "1" after the branch to 2402--read JCL from cards right away instead of the typewriter. I wrote an awful lot of SPS; probably more than FORTRAN. But FORTRAN IID was far more of a "real" FORTRAN than the card versions--you could have functions and subroutines and even call overlays. But the floating point subroutines for SPS programs could accommodate 45 digits of mantissa--that'd be what--about 135 bits of binary mantissa? Slow as molasses in January, but still pretty cool. (I see you found my "Bottles of Beer" program!) Cheers, Chuck > > After doing that a few times, you remembered it pretty well. > > OB Fortran reference: > There were several "load & go" Fortrans available for the 1620. The one I > liked the best was Witran. It fit into a 20k machine, but was interpreted. > Still not too bad for a Fortran. The best was the Monitor II Fortran II. It > generated automatic floating point instructions, and used index registers (only > for the compiler I think). Pretty speedy. The hardware floating point on a > 1620-II was faster than the software on the (next generation) IBM 1130 (I used > that too). The 1620's bonus was that standard precision (in floating point) > was 8 significant digits. If you really felt ambitious, you could go MUCH > higher (28 digits with Fortran-II). Few machines today can match that in hardware! > > -- > Tom Watson > tsw at johana.com > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get your own web address. > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Mar 23 13:18:55 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:18:55 -0500 Subject: A request... In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1063@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B1063@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <000601c76d77$b7e4f600$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Seconded. This is rediculous. This lack of subject-line changing is just plain laziness. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ram > Meenakshisundaram > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:20 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; > cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: A request... > > Out of respect, can we please change the subject to something > else. We have techno-babbled about a lot of things other > than John W. Backus... > > Thanks, > > Ram > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 13:02:12 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:02:12 -0700 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com> I finally got an 8-inch floppy drive connected to a PC and now I want to create an 8-inch boot floppy from a Teledisk image I found, but tdcheck says it's an 82 track 3.5-inch floppy image. That's seems odd. http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/ALTOS.ZIP Anyone know for sure if I should be able to use Teledisk to write this image directly to an 8-inch floppy? Or would I need to do something like write the image to a 3.5 inch floppy and then use ImageDisk to read that floppy and write it to the 8-inch floppy? -Glen From ken at seefried.com Fri Mar 23 13:04:14 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:04:14 -0400 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <200703230420.l2N4IckO072485@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703230420.l2N4IckO072485@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070323180414.23149.qmail@seefried.com> From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> >Jules Richardson wrote: >> > I wonder which machine would take the prize for the >> > most done with so little? > >I would have guessed something with plugboards for programming. >Possibly drum-memory. > Bletchley Bomb and/or Colossus? Certainly the results to resources ratio was pretty amazingly high. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 23 13:19:24 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <92B99B07-BAB4-4D8A-BD6A-46F38D97F991@xlisper.com> References: <4A1BD7D1-DCAB-41C9-B1CC-61BBA4F95633@xlisper.com> <200703230340.XAA05805@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <92B99B07-BAB4-4D8A-BD6A-46F38D97F991@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200703231821.OAA20912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Or rather, it is one of the partitions on that disk. ra0a is just >> one of the (probably) eight possible partitions on ra0. On some >> systems, the partition table was compiled in; on others, it was read >> off the disk. I don't know which Ultrix 4.3 was. > Is there any way to display the partition table of each disk from > single user mode? If it's a read-off-disk kernel, probably so, but if it's a compiled-in kernel, probably not. However, as I said, I don't know which of those Ultrix 4.3 is, and if it's the latter, I don't know the command (unless by chance it's the "disklabel" I'm used to in modern open-source BSD). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 23 15:19:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:19:30 -0700 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4603D3E2.29518.2215C0B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Mar 2007 at 11:02, Glen Slick wrote: > I finally got an 8-inch floppy drive connected to a PC and now I want > to create an 8-inch boot floppy from a Teledisk image I found, but > tdcheck says it's an 82 track 3.5-inch floppy image. That's seems > odd. > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/ALTOS.ZIP > > Anyone know for sure if I should be able to use Teledisk to write this > image directly to an 8-inch floppy? Or would I need to do something > like write the image to a 3.5 inch floppy and then use ImageDisk to > read that floppy and write it to the 8-inch floppy? Go ahead and give it a shot. If there are too many tracks in the image, the drive will simply bump up against the end stop. It's till a 500Kbps data rate. I have no idea why someone called the original drive what they did. Take my word for it--honest. Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Mar 23 15:18:39 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:18:39 +0000 Subject: Long Paper Tape (renamed) In-Reply-To: <200703230420.l2N4IckR072485@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703230420.l2N4IckR072485@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <91E3C9E0-F759-4C30-9F34-B0943969521C@microspot.co.uk> > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > >> Later on we moved the compiler onto a GEC 4080 to cross compile >> for the >> 920. The 920 program grew and I had to modify the compiler so it >> could >> produce the binary output in chunks as it exceeded a 1000 foot >> roll of >> tape, and anyway I was the only person in the office capable of >> rolling >> up a full 1000 foot roll without damaging it. > > I am guessing you get 8 characters per inch of tape. > That is a 93.75 K of data per tape. Ten characters per inch, so 120KB. Useful content though was one 18 bit word per three characters, so 40K words. The 920ATC had 128K words of program/data storage plus another 128K for data only. So if every instruction was used, that's 3 full reels of tape and possibly more if there were any pre-loaded tables in the data only section. The reason it was difficult to wind up was our paper tape winders only had a 6 of 7 inch back plate, so beyond that I had to use two fingers to guide both sides of the tape, and got hard skin on both fingers. It became such a problem the company bought Penny & Giles 1/4 inch cassette tape machines. They worked fine for a while then the baud rate started drifting as it was derived from an RC network! Eventually our engineers modified them to use a proper oscillator circuit. In the mean time I had hooked up a direct serial link between the 4080 and the 920ATC running at 9600 baud. My first comms program (well, sort of). Roger. From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 23 15:37:22 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:37:22 -0500 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200703232037.l2NKbKfP032524@hosting.monisys.ca> > I finally got an 8-inch floppy drive connected to a PC and now I want > to create an 8-inch boot floppy from a Teledisk image I found, but > tdcheck says it's an 82 track 3.5-inch floppy image. That's seems > odd. > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/ALTOS.ZIP > > Anyone know for sure if I should be able to use Teledisk to write this > image directly to an 8-inch floppy? Or would I need to do something > like write the image to a 3.5 inch floppy and then use ImageDisk to > read that floppy and write it to the 8-inch floppy? I took a look at the archive in question - here's what I could figure out: I first tried TDCHECK from TD2.15 - this reports that it's reading side 128 which seems really wrong. Noting that it also said the image was made with TD2.1, I tried TD2.11 (closest I have) and it did report that it was reading side 0 and side 1 ... so If you do try and recreate it, I would suggest using TD2.1x It also reports FM on a 3.5" drive with 26 sectors/track. 3.5" drives normally operate at 300rpm. An 8" drive operates at 360 rpm, and normally has 26 FM sectors on a track. If the image were truly on a 300 rpm drive, I would expect to see more sectors. So the sectors match an 8" drive. Teledisk tries to describe it's disks in terms of PC drives, and since a PC doesn't have a specification for an 8" drive, it would have had to be manually set up - My guess is that whomever made those images didn't have the drives set up correctly. TD probably thought it was talking to a 300rpm drive, but the # sectors makes me thing it was actually a 360 rpm drive. Unfortunately it may not work backwards - TeleDisk has to calculate the gaps based on total number of bits/track and I assume it will determine this from what it thinks the drive RPM is... I might work ... doesn't hurt to try. If it doesn't, you might be able to write it to a 3.5" disk, read that into IMD and write it out to a 8". Also concerneing is the fact that TDCHECK is reporting 82 tracks - does the Altos have special drives with more tracks? - I've seen people try to get an extra track or two, but 5 tracks past the end of the drive (8" = 77 tracks) seems too much. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 23 15:37:38 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:37:38 +0000 Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <200703231821.OAA20912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <C229EB12.8F5D%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 23/3/07 18:19, "der Mouse" <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote: >>> Or rather, it is one of the partitions on that disk. ra0a is just >>> one of the (probably) eight possible partitions on ra0. On some >>> systems, the partition table was compiled in; on others, it was read >>> off the disk. I don't know which Ultrix 4.3 was. >> Is there any way to display the partition table of each disk from >> single user mode? > > If it's a read-off-disk kernel, probably so, but if it's a compiled-in > kernel, probably not. > > However, as I said, I don't know which of those Ultrix 4.3 is, and if > it's the latter, I don't know the command (unless by chance it's the > "disklabel" I'm used to in modern open-source BSD). Ultrix is BSD related, so to read the label you use 'disklabel -r', to edit the label it's 'disklabel -er' which invokes ed to actually edit the label. IIRC the default label was / on partition a, swap on b and /usr on g but it's been a long time since I've used ultrix in anger, probably 8 years or so. OSF/1 used the same defaults before it morphed into Tru64 V5 and moved onto SystemV device naming. Cheers A -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Mar 23 16:09:34 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:09:34 -0800 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4604420E.6020905@msm.umr.edu> Glen Slick wrote: > I finally got an 8-inch floppy drive connected to a PC and now I want > to create an 8-inch boot floppy from a Teledisk image I found, but > tdcheck says it's an 82 track 3.5-inch floppy image. That's seems > odd. > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/ALTOS.ZIP > > Anyone know for sure if I should be able to use Teledisk to write this > image directly to an 8-inch floppy? Or would I need to do something > like write the image to a 3.5 inch floppy and then use ImageDisk to > read that floppy and write it to the 8-inch floppy? It is possible that there were excess tracks when a 3 1/2 inch disk was added to a system with 8" drives, especially at Altos. there may not be any relevent data on those tracks, or if there is, you may be out of luck unless you figure out how to get a system going with 3 1/2 inch drives and gen an 8" disk off the Altos system. Some systems never used the 3 1/2 inch drives as a main drive, but rather as a convenience. the system never knew there was anything other than 8" drives attached. I recently saw that with old Computer Automation systems, for example. jim From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 23 17:08:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:08:16 -0700 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <4603D3E2.29518.2215C0B0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com>, <4603D3E2.29518.2215C0B0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4603ED60.11726.227951D6@cclist.sydex.com> When writing an image back to a drive, TeleDisk doesn't really care about anything more than the density (low or high), recording mode (FM/MFM), and number and size of sectors. Gap computation is performed on the basis of the drive being used to write. So declare your drive as either a 5.25" 1.2MB or an 8" to TeleDisk and you'll be fine, assuming your controller will write FM. Either way, the track computation will be based on 500K data rate and a 360 RPM drive. As far as the 82 cylinders goes; it's the number used for the maximum track inspected by TeleDisk--TD will keep looking up to track 82 (or 42 for a 48 tpi drive) or (79 for an 8" drive) until no data is returned. Some drives will hit a mechanical stop at track 80 or so, so the positioner will just bounce against it, returning the same data. On playback, the same thing will happen, so you'll get a valid recreation. Things had to be this way because some copy-protected formats use up to 42/82 cylinders; and some customers wanted to recover manufacturing information if present (which is typically recorded on track 40 or 80). Hope this clears things up. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 23 19:15:30 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4602D431.5672.1E2EF604@cclist.sydex.com> References: <Your message of "Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:37:10 CDT." <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> >, <200703221507.l2MF7dZM004370@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4602D431.5672.1E2EF604@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070323170953.K79184@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hey, it was barely FORTRAN, but it was FORTRAN! I have fond memories of the good old days, with PDQ FORTRAN It made you appreciate FORTRAN IV. (and WATFOR!) But then Fortran 77 just didn't feel like a real FORTRAN. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 23 19:21:28 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <4602D937.11488.1E42931A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200703212256.l2LMu9rs043079@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <290DA8BE-B387-4D88-A200-7B7E2099351C@microspot.co.uk> <4602D937.11488.1E42931A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070323171841.P79184@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > When you extend BASIC with multicharacter variables and optional LET, > you have to admit some sort of lexical control, either by saying that > an identifier can't begin with a reserved word, demanding white space > or some other such mechanism. Otherwise, something like > 400 LETJ=3 > becomes ambiguous. yeah, but is that related to why IBM Microsoft FORTRAN couldn't handle 6 character variable names that ended with QQ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 23 19:23:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PS/2 Models 25 and 30 In-Reply-To: <000c01c76ce4$4b096a40$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <000c01c76ce4$4b096a40$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <20070323172208.L79184@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Dan Snyder wrote: > To all who replied, good point, when offering a machine, state the processor manufacturer, > number and speed. I'll eventually develope a system... > > Model 30 is an Intel (AMD) 80286 at 10Mhz > Model 25 is an Intel (NEC) 8086 at 8MHz When the 30 first came out, it was with an 8086. the 30/286 came soon after, along with the XT/286 From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 23 16:13:13 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 21:13:13 +0000 Subject: simple question about turning off/on a regulator. Message-ID: <20070324010913.ECGH1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Fixing FE1250 Nec (actually two!), 22" monitor monsters. Have the bulletin on fix these problems and problem is that I cannot get this part easily here. Switchable off and on adjustable regulator set for 3.3V in 5 pin SMD flat pack with heatsink tab. The part number PQ20WZ51, marker: Sharp. I can make a 3.3V regulator but best way to switch it off or on (fet or transistor with low gate/base current? Data sheet for this regulator is available had to dig inside sharp semiconductor area even with google didn't find to find out what I need to rig the power control side. Cheers, Wizard From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Mar 23 16:11:54 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:11:54 -0800 Subject: Byte magazine back issues Message-ID: <4604429A.3030601@msm.umr.edu> are the byte magazines available online anywhere, including scans of advertisements? I am interested in some ACP ads, but don't know when they were placed. anyone with a collection I would appreciate finding the full page rear cover inside or outside ads, and getting a high res scan. thanks Jim From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Fri Mar 23 18:53:16 2007 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:53:16 -0500 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <C229D29C.C7FF%richardlynch3@tx.rr.com> on 3/23/07 1:02 PM, Glen Slick at glen.slick at gmail.com wrote: > I finally got an 8-inch floppy drive connected to a PC and now I want > to create an 8-inch boot floppy from a Teledisk image I found, but > tdcheck says it's an 82 track 3.5-inch floppy image. That's seems > odd. > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/ALTOS.ZIP > > Anyone know for sure if I should be able to use Teledisk to write this > image directly to an 8-inch floppy? Or would I need to do something > like write the image to a 3.5 inch floppy and then use ImageDisk to > read that floppy and write it to the 8-inch floppy? > > -Glen I ran into this file a few years back and wasn't able to do much with it. I later created my own Altos floppy images using both Teledisk and Imagedisk. I'll send them to you offlist for you to try out. Richard Lynch From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 23 21:56:44 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 21:56:44 -0500 Subject: more 11/45 fun Message-ID: <000b01c76dc0$10054e00$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was letting the 11/45 instruction excerciser run in a loop just to work the machine while I was digging through the RL02 prints to find all the signals going to the fault lite. Looked over at the machine and it had locked up after running fine for about 5 hours. Wonderful. I figured one of my cpu boards was probably marginal and was preparing to swap boards and then I could swear I heard Tony yelling at me from across the pond. So I got out the scope and started checking the backplane power testpoints. Sure enough, E16B2 and E21B2 are both (basically) zero, and they were NOT that way before when I had a problem with the top 742 supply. Looking through the prints shows they should have been at -15v and come from the bottom 742 built in regulator. ARGH! So now it's the same board in the bottom supply that failed in the top supply a week or two ago. Glad I ordered some extra parts from mouser when the last one died. Further thought and I realized that slots 16 and 21 are for the mos/bipolar memory controllers. I don't have mos/bipolar memory. So I was wondering what else comes off that regulator board on the bottom 742. From recent memory I believe I recall the LTC comes from there. But LTC being fried wouldn't cause the cpu to fail to come up would it? And since I'm not actually using mos/bipolar I'm left wondering what else is coming off that board. AC lo or DC lo signal perhaps? I seem to remember that something odd was done to the regulator board in that lower 742 to make the output -15v instead of 15v like the top 742. In any case, I obviously SHOULD fix the regulator in the bottom 742 so I get that -15v back but I am left curious as to if that is what is causing the cpu to suddenly no longer come up and run. Am I on the right track here? Jay From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 23 21:57:11 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 21:57:11 -0500 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <4603ED60.11726.227951D6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4603D3E2.29518.2215C0B0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703240257.l2O2vEVI006431@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Chuck, I know you don't want to do teledisk support, but having just spend a bit of time trying your suggestion, I have one burning question... > When writing an image back to a drive, TeleDisk doesn't really care > about anything more than the density (low or high), recording mode > (FM/MFM), and number and size of sectors. Gap computation is > performed on the basis of the drive being used to write. So declare > your drive as either a 5.25" 1.2MB or an 8" to TeleDisk and you'll be > fine, assuming your controller will write FM. Either way, the track > computation will be based on 500K data rate and a 360 RPM drive. HOW exactly do you do this? - I admit I don't know teledisk very well, and have never set up a custom drive table etc. however I tried to write the image with a BIOS drive configured as a 1.2M HD - this should let TeleDisk know it's 500kbps and 360rpm, however Teledisk refuses to try and write it saying it's the "wrong drive type". I tried with TD2.11 and TD2.15 > As far as the 82 cylinders goes; it's the number used for the maximum > track inspected by TeleDisk--TD will keep looking up to track 82 (or > 42 for a 48 tpi drive) or (79 for an 8" drive) until no data is > returned. Some drives will hit a mechanical stop at track 80 or so, > so the positioner will just bounce against it, returning the same > data. On playback, the same thing will happen, so you'll get a valid > recreation. Things had to be this way because some copy-protected > formats use up to 42/82 cylinders; and some customers wanted to > recover manufacturing information if present (which is typically > recorded on track 40 or 80). This gives us another clue - I was able to read the data from those extra tracks, and 0-76 are what you would expect, 77-82 do contain data, but are ALL exact duplicates of 76 - ie, the image WAS read on an 8" drive (misconfigured as a 3.5"), and it "hit the stop" right at track 77 - no extra tracks at all. Btw - for those who want to make these disks... I was able to recreate the disk on 8" by a round-about method. I got TeleDisk to write the disk to a 3.5" HD drive, then used ImageDisk to read it into a .IMD file which I could then write out to the 8" drive. This worked, and I was able to look into the CPM 2.24 image and see lots of strings referencing "ALTOS 64k loader" and such - so it is an Altos disk. I was also able to read and examine the extra tracks as noted above (IMDV is proving quite handy!) After writing the disk with TD, TD2.11 could not read it (it locked up requiring a hard-reset) - TD2.15 was able to re-read it. It could also write it correctly, even though my earlier test showed that TDCHECK from 2.15 gave bizarre side numbers. I think my final working transfer was done with TD2.15. The reason I did so much screwing around with TD and reading the disk was that the first time I tried this I used the DIAG disk, and ended up with a blank formatted disk - I was trying to verify that TD read back the same as it wrote ... turns out that DIAG is in fact a blank formatted disk... But at least one of the CP/M disks appear to contain a valid boot disk image. If anyone wants, I can use my setup to convert these to ImageDisk format and post them to my site. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 21:21:34 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 19:21:34 -0700 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <C229D29C.C7FF%richardlynch3@tx.rr.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com> <C229D29C.C7FF%richardlynch3@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703231921w13382082q51a37b5796340156@mail.gmail.com> On 3/23/07, Richard Lynch <richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com> wrote: > > I ran into this file a few years back and wasn't able to do much with it. I > later created my own Altos floppy images using both Teledisk and Imagedisk. > I'll send them to you offlist for you to try out. > Richard Lynch > I have an ACS8000-7 dual floppy and an ASC8000-10 floppy / hard drive. On both of them I get the monitor prompt to insert a floppy for autoboot (the -10 fails the hard drive boot first). I tried creating floppies from ACSBTMD1.IMD and DIAG26K.IMD and I don't get any indication that anything is happening on either system with either floppy. No additional output on the terminal and it doesn't appear that the floppy is seeking at all. I don't know for certain that the floppy drives are actually working on either system other than the motors running. I got them as-is a couple of years ago with no boot floppies and no way to create boot floppies at the time. I suppose I could pull the drives and attach them to the PC I used to write the floppies and see if I can read the floppies back ok. That sounds too much work like work instead of fun for this evening. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 23 21:29:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:29:03 -0600 Subject: Byte magazine back issues In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:11:54 -0800. <4604429A.3030601@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <E1HUw07-0006C6-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <4604429A.3030601 at msm.umr.edu>, jim <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> writes: > are the byte magazines available online anywhere, including > scans of advertisements? Maybe isolated articles and ads, but nothing comprehensive. They do show up fairly regularly on ebay though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 21:31:10 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:31:10 -0400 Subject: IBM PS/2 Models 25 and 30 In-Reply-To: <20070323172208.L79184@shell.lmi.net> References: <000c01c76ce4$4b096a40$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> <20070323172208.L79184@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46048D6E.1090309@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Dan Snyder wrote: >> To all who replied, good point, when offering a machine, state the processor manufacturer, >> number and speed. I'll eventually develope a system... >> >> Model 30 is an Intel (AMD) 80286 at 10Mhz >> Model 25 is an Intel (NEC) 8086 at 8MHz > > When the 30 first came out, it was with an 8086. > the 30/286 came soon after, along with the XT/286 I'm pretty sure that the 30-286 came out *long* after the XT/286. I'm even reasonably sure it came out quite a while after the AT. The 30-286 came out in late 1988, if memory serves. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 23 22:06:54 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:06:54 -0500 Subject: 11/45 lower regulator board Message-ID: <001101c76dc1$7a507f40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Hey, that thing is hard to get to! Someone tightened down the screws in the back that hold the regulator in place, so after undoing the two screws in front it still won't slide out. Is there a trick to this? Do I have to take the whole supply out? Can't get a screw driver in there with the upper H742 in place :\ Suggestions appreciated :) Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 23 22:30:11 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PS/2 Models 25 and 30 In-Reply-To: <46048D6E.1090309@gmail.com> References: <000c01c76ce4$4b096a40$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> <20070323172208.L79184@shell.lmi.net> <46048D6E.1090309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070323202806.M88203@shell.lmi.net> > > When the 30 first came out, it was with an 8086. > > the 30/286 came soon after, along with the XT/286 On Fri, 23 Mar 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm pretty sure that the 30-286 came out *long* after the XT/286. I'm > even reasonably sure it came out quite a while after the AT. The 30-286 > came out in late 1988, if memory serves. Yes, there was a substantial length of time between the two, and they were both long after the AT. It just didn't seem so long to me after 20 years, . . . From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 23 22:31:51 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:31:51 -0700 Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available In-Reply-To: <00c801c76cfe$c3dcd0f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <BAY138-F343CCAA966B1887F5C48FAA3690@phx.gbl> >From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> > >I've been hunting for a Tiny BASIC interpreter for the 6502, written in >6502 assembler with source. I haven't been able to find such a thing. >Anyone have one floating around? > >Jay > HI Jay I thought Tom Pittman's TB was for 6502? ( or maybe 6800?) As for TB's that are ROMable, I have PaloAlto Tiny Basic in a 2K ROM for 8080. It has been enhanced from the version that was published to include the ability to extend. It currently runs in a Poly88. I've extended the instructions to do PEEK, POKE and SAVE. I also have StarTrek that runs under it as well. I've disassembled it and made a commented listing. Most of the comments are from the original list with some of the spelling errors fixed. I've added comments about the extention of commands but that is easiest understood from my listing of the extentions. I've sent it to someone that put it on a web page but I don't recall who or where. I also have Tom's code as well but didn't finish playing with it when I found it didn't fit in 2K. It was 2K plus about 20 bytes as I recall. I'm sure I was intending to use it on my SYM-1 so it must be 6502. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07 From g-wright at att.net Fri Mar 23 22:50:44 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 03:50:44 +0000 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image Message-ID: <032420070350.11509.4604A0120007A17600002CF521604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com>: -------------- > On 3/23/07, Richard Lynch wrote: > > > > I ran into this file a few years back and wasn't able to do much with it. I > > later created my own Altos floppy images using both Teledisk and Imagedisk. > > I'll send them to you offlist for you to try out. > > Richard Lynch > > > > I have an ACS8000-7 dual floppy and an ASC8000-10 floppy / hard drive. > > On both of them I get the monitor prompt to insert a floppy for > autoboot (the -10 fails the hard drive boot first). I tried creating > floppies from ACSBTMD1.IMD and DIAG26K.IMD and I don't get any > indication that anything is happening on either system with either > floppy. No additional output on the terminal and it doesn't appear > that the floppy is seeking at all. > > I don't know for certain that the floppy drives are actually working > on either system other than the motors running. I got them as-is a > couple of years ago with no boot floppies and no way to create boot > floppies at the time. > > I suppose I could pull the drives and attach them to the PC I used to > write the floppies and see if I can read the floppies back ok. That > sounds too much work like work instead of fun for this evening. > > -Glen Glen I have both of theses and you should hear the drives load and unload the heads. . One of the problems I have is the head (nut and screw) assembly stick and the head never gets back to track 0. I have also had to replace the floppy disk controller chip in my 8000/2 in the past These use different boot disks. I have both if you need another sorce. No too sure what is in the ZIP file. - Jerry From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 22:39:56 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:39:56 -0700 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703231921w13382082q51a37b5796340156@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703231102v5ee12557y88b2dc74195c7c8@mail.gmail.com> <C229D29C.C7FF%richardlynch3@tx.rr.com> <1e1fc3e90703231921w13382082q51a37b5796340156@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703232039wd397110t5630972dfee56903@mail.gmail.com> On 3/23/07, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote: > > I have an ACS8000-7 dual floppy and an ASC8000-10 floppy / hard drive. > > On both of them I get the monitor prompt to insert a floppy for > autoboot (the -10 fails the hard drive boot first). I tried creating > floppies from ACSBTMD1.IMD and DIAG26K.IMD and I don't get any > indication that anything is happening on either system with either > floppy. No additional output on the terminal and it doesn't appear > that the floppy is seeking at all. > Problem solved. I took a break and whlie out taking the dog for a walk I started thinking about something I observed that puzzled me a bit but dismissed at the time. I was creating the disk with a Tandon TM848-2 and double sided disks and when I was looking at disk spinning in the drive in the ASC8000 I thought it odd that the index hole didn't appear to line up with the index sensor on the drive. While out walking it occured to me that maybe a single sided floppy has the index hole in different position. Just now I opened up a box of single sided floppies that I was lucky to have on hand and took a look a the index hole location and that answered my question. I just now created a singled sided disk from the ACSBTMD1.IMD image from Richard on the TM848-2 which I now see has two index sensors and it booted up right away on the ASC8000 with the singled sided Shugart 80x drive. Learn something new every day. 8-inch floppies were just before my time so I'm a little ignorant about their details. -Glen From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Mar 23 08:01:05 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:01:05 -0700 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller In-Reply-To: <001d01c76ca2$10034520$9eb21052@MND> References: <001d01c76ca2$10034520$9eb21052@MND> Message-ID: <4603CF91.7090702@garlic.com> biblewitness.org.uk wrote: > jd wrote: > >> HP's number for this OEM board--by MSC/Xebec is 88134-69910, 09135-69515, >> and/or 09135-69501. I have no idea which number belongs to mine. >> > > FYI: These are all used on 5Mb drives with two sets of firmware classified as follows: > 88134-69910 'L' Code - HP250 Model 20 > 09135-69515 'D' Code - 4-Volume 5-Mb (emulates HP 9895A drives - I use this for my 9845B and HP-85 & 87 systems) > 09135-69501 'L' Code - single volume 5-Mb. > > Martin > Web: http://www.biblewitness.org/technical > > Thanks. That's useful. Now if only I knew what the Xebec part numbers were for the HP models/firmware... I have four different sets of Xebec firmware. Two of the sets have the "D" or "L" formats, selectable by jumper. One of those two also works with 10Mb disks but will only format the 10Mb as 5Mb or the 4-volume "D" format. -- jd The world is coming to an end ... SAVE YOUR BUFFERS!!! From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Mar 23 23:02:41 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 00:02:41 -0400 Subject: PDP11 NSC RAM questions Message-ID: <4604A2E1.3040501@hawkmountain.net> I've purchased a memory board for PDP11. It appears to be a National Semiconductor Q-BUS memory card. It has 980110014-001 on it. I find (currently) no markings saying like NS23D, NS23M, NS23S, NS23E, etc.... It is populated with MMC3764N-15 chips. There are 144 chips total. I'm still a newbie on 11s... but, if my internet searches are correct those chips are 64k x 1 ram modules. So it takes 8 of them to make 64 kilobytes. Assuming there is parity, 144/9 make 16 sets of 9 chips each with 64 kilobytes + 1 parity bit per byte (9th chip). This math makes it out to me a 1MB module. Can anyone confirm that is what it is ? I bought it as a 4MB module. Also, I believe this came out of an 11/73. Will this work in an 11/83, and if so, does it operate as PMI memory ? Thanks in advance from all you PDP11 gurus out there. And... if this isn't PMI memory, and if is only a 1MB board, would anyone want to take in in trade towards a M8637-EF (MSV11-JE) to go along with the existing MSV11-JE I have. -- Curt From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Mar 23 23:23:09 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 00:23:09 -0400 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <4603E202.6050602@radiorobots.com> References: <200703230011.l2N0BmZs007438@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4603E202.6050602@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <4604A7AD.7030505@comcast.net> In early to mid 70's, I remember buying bags of surplus transistors from Poly Paks real cheap. Then we wired them into discrete logic gates and flip-flops to get some rudimentary type of computing device. It was an arduous process but a challenging one. But then we saw that TTL chips were getting cheaper at Poly Paks so that fad quickly faded. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] >> William Blair wrote: >> >>>>> When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like >>>>> "single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of >>>>> simple circuits featuring a single transistor. >>>>> (or who knows, maybe it was 101 transistor project; I think I was > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 24 00:20:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:20:35 -0700 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <4604A7AD.7030505@comcast.net> References: <200703230011.l2N0BmZs007438@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <4603E202.6050602@radiorobots.com>, <4604A7AD.7030505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <460452B3.10129.24051947@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Mar 2007 at 0:23, Dan wrote: > In early to mid 70's, I remember buying bags of surplus transistors from > Poly Paks real cheap. Then we wired them into discrete logic gates and > flip-flops to get some rudimentary type of computing device. It was an > arduous process but a challenging one. But then we saw that TTL chips > were getting cheaper at Poly Paks so that fad quickly faded. ...not to mention the wonderful quality of Poly-Paks parts. Still, it was a very cheap way to get some ICs at the time, some of which actually worked. ;) Cheers, Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Sat Mar 24 01:04:09 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:04:09 -0700 Subject: Transistor Projects In-Reply-To: <200703240414.l2O4DZpm088891@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703240414.l2O4DZpm088891@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <06139622-CCE0-4891-81E5-4B7EEBA94DE4@comcast.net> The following caught my eye on the back page of a flyer from a remainder bookseller: "Electronics Lab: The Ultimate Electronics Pack" by Brenda Bach. Its a book with a bunch of experiments as well as the components. It originally sold for $20 and they ask $5.95. It's at <http://www.hamiltonbook.com/hamiltonbook.storefront> and is item 6136583. CRC From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Mar 24 04:05:50 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:05:50 +0100 Subject: Ultrix device names In-Reply-To: <C229EB12.8F5D%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <200703231821.OAA20912@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <C229EB12.8F5D%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070324100550.74a112c2@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:37:38 +0000 Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> wrote: > Ultrix is BSD related, so to read the label you use 'disklabel -r', to > edit the label it's 'disklabel -er' which invokes ed to actually edit > the label. I think it is almost 10 years that I have seen Ultrix. But I dim remember that Ultrix used somthing else as partitioning tool, not disklabel(8). chpt(8)? I would start with: cat /etc/fstab to see what is there and then mount /usr read only: mount -r /usr to get the man-pages... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 24 04:42:11 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:42:11 +0000 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8A57C601-8BAF-4BC5-84CC-8058714F8F54@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Mar 21, 7 12:12:38 pm, <m1HUAzu-000J11C@p850ug1> <46017C71.14369.18F03255@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1174729331.3706.5.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-03-21 at 18:41 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Mar 2007 at 0:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Did any computer built after 1960 NOT have a FORTRAN implementation? > > > > > > Yes, my ICT1301 (155+ built from 1962 to 1965) had no Fortran compiler. > > > > I've not seen a Fortran compiler for any of the following : > > > > HP9830 (I claim this is a computer, it ran BASIC from ROM) > > > > Philips P850 (maximum 2K words of core, I believe larger P800 series > > machines did have a Fortran compiler available) > > > > HP9825, 9831, 9845, 9835 series > > HP80 series. > > > > Just about all the pocekt computers (Sharp, Casio, HP, etc) > > > > What abotu the IBM 5100? And for that matter the Commodore PET (I know > > the SuperPET had such a compiler), the C64, etc. And the Sinclair/Amstrad > > machines (ZX*0, ZX81, Spectrums). And the Oric > > How many of the above would run *any* type of compile-to-machine- > language HLL compiler? Most of the BASICs were tokenized and > interpreted. > > A few of those that you've cited simply didn't have the resources for > it. There were a couple of different BASIC compilers for the ZX Spectrum. Gordon From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 24 07:55:25 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:55:25 -0400 Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available In-Reply-To: <BAY138-F343CCAA966B1887F5C48FAA3690@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <200703241255.l2OCtUj8023876@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:31:51 -0700, dwight elvey wrote: >HI Jay >I thought Tom Pittman's TB was for 6502? ( or maybe 6800?) When I met Tom at his house many years ago (about 1980) to purchased this TinyBasic for the AMI EVK300 6800 card. I had a copy I was running on an Intel SDK80 8080 card and wanted one for the 6800. At the time he was just finishing up a 1802 version for RCA. He still had his origional 4004 system on the porch punching paper tape on an ASR33, and was very proud of the floppy controller he had designed for a memorex SSSD 8" floppy drive running he had running on the 4004 so he could change processor/tape formats on his punch on demand duplicarion system. I know he had a 6502 version and I asked about a 2650 version and was told at the time, he did not have any plans to do one unless Signetic or someone would underwrite the cost of it. I think he was getting tired of the project at that point. later Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Mar 24 08:56:07 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:56:07 -0400 Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available Message-ID: <0JFE001ALUNTQ6G4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tiny BASIC Extended available > From: "dwight elvey" <dkelvey at hotmail.com> > Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:31:51 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > >>From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> >> >>I've been hunting for a Tiny BASIC interpreter for the 6502, written in >>6502 assembler with source. I haven't been able to find such a thing. >>Anyone have one floating around? >> >>Jay >> > > >HI Jay >I thought Tom Pittman's TB was for 6502? ( or maybe 6800?) According to the manual and the article (I have both) it was written for both. I have the 6502 version. It's possible I have a papertape of the 6800 version. >As for TB's that are ROMable, I have PaloAlto Tiny Basic in a 2K >ROM for 8080. It has been enhanced from the version that was >published to include the ability to extend. It currently runs in a >Poly88. I've extended the instructions to do PEEK, POKE and >SAVE. I also have StarTrek that runs under it as well. >I've disassembled it and made a commented listing. Most of the >comments are from the original list with some of the spelling errors >fixed. I've added comments about the extention of commands >but that is easiest understood from my listing of the extentions. > I've sent it to someone that put it on a web page but I don't >recall who or where. >I also have Tom's code as well but didn't finish playing with it >when I found it didn't fit in 2K. It was 2K plus about 20 bytes >as I recall. I'm sure I was intending to use it on my SYM-1 so >it must be 6502. >Dwight There were several that are romable. Also there was LLLBasic (Lawrence Livermore Labs) a 5k basic that was also romable (and available on rom). I have that in hardcopy as part of a Best of Interface Age anthology Volume 1 Software in Basic. That had LLLBASIC for 8080, Dr Wangs Palo Alto TB, National NIBL, and Robert Uiterwyks 4K 6800 basic (floppy rom experiement). I'd be surprized if most of that wasn't already on line somewhere. Allison From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Sat Mar 24 08:56:10 2007 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:56:10 -0600 (MDT) Subject: simple question about turning off/on a regulator. In-Reply-To: <20070324010913.ECGH1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20070324010913.ECGH1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703240753130.16208@porky.vax-11.org> How much current do you need? The LT3503 buck converter will do 1A and has a shutdown pin. There are Maxim parts that use external FETs and also have a shutdown pin. If you have your heart set on a linear regulator, you might be able to use an adjustable one and drive the ADJ pin to 5V to shut it off. Clint On Fri, 23 Mar 2007, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Fixing FE1250 Nec (actually two!), 22" monitor monsters. > > Have the bulletin on fix these problems and problem is that I cannot > get this part easily here. Switchable off and on adjustable > regulator set for 3.3V in 5 pin SMD flat pack with heatsink tab. > > The part number PQ20WZ51, marker: Sharp. > > I can make a 3.3V regulator but best way to switch it off or on (fet > or transistor with low gate/base current? Data sheet for this > regulator is available had to dig inside sharp semiconductor area > even with google didn't find to find out what I need to rig the power > control side. > > Cheers, Wizard > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 24 09:23:34 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:23:34 -0700 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <460452B3.10129.24051947@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <BAY138-F353E5D8CAF5B653ADC42CA3690@phx.gbl> >From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > >On 24 Mar 2007 at 0:23, Dan wrote: > > > In early to mid 70's, I remember buying bags of surplus transistors from > > Poly Paks real cheap. Then we wired them into discrete logic gates and > > flip-flops to get some rudimentary type of computing device. It was an > > arduous process but a challenging one. But then we saw that TTL chips > > were getting cheaper at Poly Paks so that fad quickly faded. > >...not to mention the wonderful quality of Poly-Paks parts. Still, >it was a very cheap way to get some ICs at the time, some of which >actually worked. ;) > Hi The original source of the term "Utestems". Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Mar 24 09:51:36 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:51:36 -0500 Subject: Transistor Projects In-Reply-To: <06139622-CCE0-4891-81E5-4B7EEBA94DE4@comcast.net> References: <200703240414.l2O4DZpm088891@dewey.classiccmp.org> <06139622-CCE0-4891-81E5-4B7EEBA94DE4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46053AF8.9010506@mdrconsult.com> CRC wrote: > The following caught my eye on the back page of a flyer from a remainder > bookseller: "Electronics Lab: The Ultimate Electronics Pack" by Brenda > Bach. Its a book with a bunch of experiments as well as the components. > It originally sold for $20 and they ask $5.95. > > It's at <http://www.hamiltonbook.com/hamiltonbook.storefront> and is > item 6136583. Hmmm. I'm not sure whether to bless you or curse at you. I just spent a lot of money. :) ObWayOT: If you're into blues, they have some pretty obscure albums (on CD) cheap. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 24 11:05:17 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:05:17 -0400 Subject: simple question about turning off/on a regulator. In-Reply-To: <20070324010913.ECGH1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20070324010913.ECGH1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <3142EFC6-E364-4A50-B15C-511A3BBEFD03@neurotica.com> On Mar 23, 2007, at 5:13 PM, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Fixing FE1250 Nec (actually two!), 22" monitor monsters. > > Have the bulletin on fix these problems and problem is that I cannot > get this part easily here. Switchable off and on adjustable > regulator set for 3.3V in 5 pin SMD flat pack with heatsink tab. > > The part number PQ20WZ51, marker: Sharp. > > I can make a 3.3V regulator but best way to switch it off or on (fet > or transistor with low gate/base current? Data sheet for this > regulator is available had to dig inside sharp semiconductor area > even with google didn't find to find out what I need to rig the power > control side. You will need what is known as a "high-side switch", which is basically a P-channel MOSFET with some gate driver circuitry. Or you can get a 3.3V regulator with an enable input. Linear Technology (http://www.linear.com/) and Micrel (http:// www.micrel.com/) both make these...they shouldn't be difficult to get ahold of in small quantities. One I've used personally is the Micrel MIC29151-3.3BT; it is a 1.5A 3.3V linear regulator in a five-pin TO-220 package with a logic- level active-high "enable" input. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shumaker at att.net Sat Mar 24 11:12:24 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:12:24 -0800 Subject: single transistor projects? In-Reply-To: <4604A7AD.7030505@comcast.net> References: <200703230011.l2N0BmZs007438@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4603E202.6050602@radiorobots.com> <4604A7AD.7030505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070324081134.0335cc28@att.net> PolyPaks!!! There's a name from the past. What eventually happened to them? s shumaker At 08:23 PM 3/23/2007, you wrote: >In early to mid 70's, I remember buying bags of surplus transistors >from Poly Paks real cheap. Then we wired them into discrete logic >gates and flip-flops to get some rudimentary type of computing >device. It was an arduous process but a challenging one. But then we >saw that TTL chips were getting cheaper at Poly Paks so that fad quickly faded. > >=Dan > >[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > > >>>William Blair wrote: >>> >>>>>>When I was a kid I had a book, I think it was called something like >>>>>>"single transistor projects". As I recall it was full of lots of >>>>>>simple circuits featuring a single transistor. >>>>>>(or who knows, maybe it was 101 transistor project; I think I was From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 24 15:39:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling Message-ID: <897406.23024.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> my application anyway. What is the typical maximum speed of such a device, be it antiquated (I actually used to have one of the old Radio Shack units), or home-brewed. And lookee, here's what I had: http://cgi.ebay.com/RADIO-SHACK-ACOUSTIC-COUPLER-MODEM- TRS-80-AC-3_W0QQitemZ180098721480QQcategoryZ80229QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem In fact, that's an acoustic modem. What I'd like to implement is a "bridge" if you will between a modem and a cellular device that would allow connection to the internet. Ingenious, no? ;) Please, no one tell me about software and such that's presently available on the market. I'm aware of it, own 99% of it, and I'll say here and now it's flakey at best. The technology is antiquated enough, albeit not the application. O woe is me :( ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 24 14:18:41 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:18:41 -0700 Subject: ModComp / Diablo project Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703241218r3a4a4c62i4fd33d91146821e9@mail.gmail.com> Anyone else notice this one: http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/Auction10925/lotimagesEVER0205/2237107.JPG Looks like an interesting ModComp project, complete with Diablo? disk drives. From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Mar 24 16:58:28 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:58:28 -0500 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations Message-ID: <001d01c76e5f$8e0095e0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Maybe some can answer this question. Every (it seems) AlphaStation 200/250/255 that appears on ebay ends up selling for more than what I *think* is a reasonable price. Maybe maintenance org's buying spares? Are they used by some telecoms? I used to have the 255's as Operator interface displays for process monitor/control. They used DUnix 4.0E and some apps from Siemens. I was able to replace them with DS10's with little effort. I can maybe see why a DS10 would go for a high price, but not the 200/250/255. AlphaStation 200 - mostly Alpha cpus @166 or 233MHz AlphaStation 250 - Alpha cpu @266MHz AlphaStation 255 - Alpha cpu @233/266/300MHz They were and are not _that_ fast and memory expansion is limited. I realize at the time (1995-1998) time frame these machines were very fast, but this is 2007, you could purchase a used DS10 or DS20 and gain alot of power for less money. Clue me in please, Dan @ Butler, PA From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Mar 24 17:08:17 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:08:17 -0500 Subject: DEC MicroVAX 3800 - still amazes me Message-ID: <002601c76e60$ed2fd840$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> I have a couple of MicroVAX 3800's that became part of my collection of space heaters during the Y2K period. It amazes me these machines still power up and boot VMS. The date these machines were purchased was sometime in 1989. Both are well equipped and came from a production environment. They gathered process data almost non stop for 10 years. What a perspective correction... I have a C-Itoh CIT-220+ attached to the console port, 12 inch amber screen, no mouse. Pays sometimes to know where we have all been from, makes me feel a bit aged.. Dan @ Butler, PA From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Sat Mar 24 16:14:08 2007 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:14:08 -0500 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <200703240257.l2O2vEVI006431@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <C22AFED0.4EF%richardlynch3@tx.rr. com> On 3/23/07 9:57 PM, "Dave Dunfield" <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote: > If anyone wants, I can use my setup to convert these to ImageDisk > format and post them to my site. Dave, Yes, I'd like to get them in Imagedisk format. Thanks, Richard Lynch From stevew at ka6s.com Sat Mar 24 16:24:27 2007 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steve Wilson) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:24:27 -0700 Subject: Hmm Message-ID: <200703241424.27936.stevew@ka6s.com> > Written by Tom Watson, tsw at johana.com >On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:20:51 -0700, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: >>> On 22 Mar 2007 at 14:59, Steve Wilson wrote: >>> >>> >4900796 (Somebody will understand this reference) >>> >>> Someone is trying to boot Fortran off of the Disk on an IBM 1620 me thinks >> >> Isn't 00796 where all-well-behaved programs went to die? I.e. reload >> Monitor (sort of a CALL EXIT)? >> >> --Chuck > >We have a winner. >Just to add to the trivia, to boot the disk you needed a few more characters: >3400032007013600032007024902402111963611300102 >Which if you were on a model 2, you needed to make sure that indirect >addressing was turned on (nothing worked right if you didn't!). > >After doing that a few times, you remembered it pretty well. (Stuff deleted) >Tom Watson >tsw at johana.com So Tom, Do I at least get partial credit for knowing it was from the IBM1620? A friend of mine told me that sequence 30 years ago - and along the way I got confused as to the function. (I know - excuses excuses ;-) I can 't explain why I'm carrying around that data in my head either... I only programmed in GoTran twice, i.e. hands-on a 1620 that many times back in the 1970's at Oxy College in Pasadena on the weekends. A high school buddy was the true Guru in 1620 Machine language. As for the IBM1130 - I've only programmed on one of those in Fortran IV once (though my college buddy Bob seems to have one he is trying to ressurect - http://www.dvq.com/1130/1130.htm) Steve Wilson From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 24 16:30:55 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:30:55 -0500 Subject: ModComp / Diablo project References: <1e1fc3e90703241218r3a4a4c62i4fd33d91146821e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401c76e5b$b85ed350$6500a8c0@BILLING> Glen wrote... > Anyone else notice this one: > > http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/Auction10925/lotimagesEVER0205/2237107.JPG > > Looks like an interesting ModComp project, complete with Diablo? disk > drives. Oh my. That would make for a really nice (and fun) restoration project. My hands are already full though.... Jay From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Mar 24 18:26:40 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:26:40 -0400 Subject: simple question about turning off/on a regulator. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:05:17 EDT." <3142EFC6-E364-4A50-B15C-511A3BBEFD03@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200703242326.l2ONQeqd017577@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dave McGuire wrote: .. > One I've used personally is the Micrel MIC29151-3.3BT; it is a >1.5A 3.3V linear regulator in a five-pin TO-220 package with a logic- >level active-high "enable" input. those LDO's are really handy for making low current 3.3v for things like MMC disks... I used one (ZR78L033GTA) which put out about 200ma and only had 3 pins. (but, oops, well, I guess the thread was about turning on/off) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Mar 24 18:29:08 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:29:08 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:39:38 PDT." <897406.23024.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200703242329.l2ONT8Pk018091@mwave.heeltoe.com> Chris M wrote: > > In fact, that's an acoustic modem. What I'd like to >implement is a "bridge" if you will between a modem >and a cellular device that would allow connection to >the internet. Ingenious, no? ;) I'd be curious to know if any analog modem can survive the type of speech compression (like G.711) you see on typical cell phones. I'm not sure FSK would survive... (but I may be wrong) -brad From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Mar 24 16:36:20 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:36:20 -0500 Subject: Creating an 8-inch floppy from 3.5-inch Teledisk image In-Reply-To: <200703240257.l2O2vEVI006431@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <4603ED60.11726.227951D6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703242136.l2OLaJ6Z020872@hosting.monisys.ca> Btw, if anyone still needs them, I have converted the ACS8000 disks in question to .IMD format and posted them to my site. The CP/M 2.21 and 2.24 disks are both single-density all the way through and converted with no problems. The CP/M 2.24A disk appears to be a double-density disk with single- density boot tracks - There were two problems: - Tracks 70-77 are missing sector 6 for some unknown reason... However I checked with IMDV and the other sectors on these tracks do not contain data - so it's not likely to be a problem as a boot disk. - Track 2 appears as a single 128 byte SD sector with sector ID #100 - don't ask me why ... ImageDisk read it OK and stored it as read. TeleDisk gets the same thing (single 128byte SD sector with id=100), but after that it gets confused and thinks the disk is a 48tpi disk in a 96tpi drive and double-steps the the rest of the disk, complaining all the way that the cylinder IDs are wrong) --- so I can't say if this image will actually work or not. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 24 17:48:11 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:48:11 -0800 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <001d01c76e5f$8e0095e0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <001d01c76e5f$8e0095e0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <p0624085ac22b58edbbff@[192.168.1.199]> At 4:58 PM -0500 3/24/07, Dan Snyder wrote: >Maybe some can answer this question. Every (it seems) AlphaStation >200/250/255 that appears >on ebay ends up selling for more than what I *think* is a reasonable >price. Maybe maintenance org's >buying spares? Are they used by some telecoms? I used to have the >255's as Operator interface >displays for process monitor/control. They used DUnix 4.0E and some >apps from Siemens. I was able >to replace them with DS10's with little effort. I can maybe see why >a DS10 would go for a high price, but >not the 200/250/255. > >AlphaStation 200 - mostly Alpha cpus @166 or 233MHz >AlphaStation 250 - Alpha cpu @266MHz >AlphaStation 255 - Alpha cpu @233/266/300MHz > >They were and are not _that_ fast and memory expansion is limited. I >realize at the time (1995-1998) >time frame these machines were very fast, but this is 2007, you >could purchase a used DS10 or DS20 and >gain alot of power for less money. > >Clue me in please, I have no idea, I'm really curious, what are the AlphaStation 200/233's going for? They're nice solid machines, but I am much happier with my XP1000/667, or even my PWS 433au which has a dead PCI slot! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Mar 24 18:04:47 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ModComp / Diablo project In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703241218r3a4a4c62i4fd33d91146821e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <732172.6761.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote: > Anyone else notice this one: > > http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/Auction10925/lotimagesEVER0205/2237107.JPG > > Looks like an interesting ModComp project, complete > with Diablo? disk drives. Unfortunately, it appears that the auction has now closed. :( --Bill From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Mar 24 17:22:37 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:22:37 +0000 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <001d01c76e5f$8e0095e0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <C22B552D.8FA8%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 24/3/07 21:58, "Dan Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote: > They were and are not _that_ fast and memory expansion is limited. I realize > at the time (1995-1998) > time frame these machines were very fast, but this is 2007, you could purchase > a used DS10 or DS20 and > gain alot of power for less money. I can't explain, I can only add my own experience; we as a maintenance company look after dozens of Alpha 200/255, DS10s for a multi-branch retail organisation. The only machines we can repair are the AS200s, everything else is too expensive since the cost of spares is almost the same as the cost of a new machine. Fortunately the failure rate of the DS10 is very low, but that doesn't explain why resellers want so much for the spares. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Mar 24 17:34:23 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:34:23 +0000 Subject: DEC MicroVAX 3800 - still amazes me In-Reply-To: <002601c76e60$ed2fd840$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <C22B57EF.8FA9%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 24/3/07 22:08, "Dan Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote: > I have a couple of MicroVAX 3800's that became part of my collection of space > heaters during the Y2K period. It amazes me these machines still power up and > boot VMS. The date these machines were purchased was sometime in 1989. Ditto the machines I rescued from the scrapper last week, they'd been in the UK winter for a while and once dried they powered up and booted :) (and yes Tony, I checked the PSUs first) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From shirsch at adelphia.net Sat Mar 24 17:53:26 2007 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:53:26 -0400 Subject: Source for 1Mx1 DIP DRAM In-Reply-To: <4601DA4B.9070903@bitsavers.org> References: <4601DA4B.9070903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4605ABE6.10606@adelphia.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > > I'm looking for (32) 1Mx1 120ns DRAM chips to populate an Amiga memory > > board. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140067553378 > > they are 100 ns Thanks for all the responses, unfortunately all of these leads were for page-mode DRAM. Amiga and Apple2 memory expansion cards require standard dram ("plain old dram"?). Part numbers generally contain "7C1000" and the chips seem difficult to find. Steve From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Sat Mar 24 16:43:45 2007 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:43:45 -0500 Subject: baud modifier In-Reply-To: <45F3C09E.3972.41DFC1CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <C22B05C1.4F1%richardlynch3@tx.rr. com> On 3/11/07 10:41 AM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > My recollection is very foggy as I never had a chance to use one of > these things, but there were devices (inexpensive) to do this for use > with printers (at least in one direction) that would not only buffer > up data to be printed, but also do protocol conversions (parallel-to- > serial, serial-to-parallel). If someone had a very old Inmac catalog > from the 80's, I suspect you might find something there. > > There were also devices for sharing terminals on a single port sold > by Inmac and several other companies. > > Finding one of these devices themselves would be harder as I suspect > that most have long been discarded as peripheral "junk". In a snap, > almost any old PC with two serial ports could be programmed to do > the same thing. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I picked up a few of these devices, unused in the box, with the Xerox Stars I found recently. They are called the "PCS/2000 Networking Modem" by Microcom. They are Z-80 based, have 2 independent RS-232 interfaces allowing communication at different baud rates from 110 to 9600, and provide Xon/Xoff flow control. Now I just need to convert the current loop on my ASR-33 to RS-232 so I can try it out. Richard Lynch From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 24 17:57:14 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:57:14 -0500 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling Message-ID: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> We will get several comments after this post... I hope y'all will correct me. The acoustic coupler on the old teletype was 1200 baud, 10 characters per sec. to match the machine. It was FSK (Frequency Shift Keying) with two tones 1200hz and 2400hz for 0 and one. Depending on the # of start, stop bits in the serial stream and parity baud .NE. bytes/sec. Phone lines have a 2500hz bandwidth, and today's modems use QAM (Quadrature Amplitude Modulation). You can visualize this if you think of a signal as a rotating vector on an xy grid - say a constant sine at constant amplitude would represent a circle. put 4 points uniformly on the circle and XY grid, and you have 4 QAM. 16 points (rectangular array, not on the unit circle), 16-QAM etc. Each point represents 2 bits in 4-QAM (dibits), and 4 bits in 16-QAM. this is called the signal constellation. To further encode the signal and reduce errors, they use techniques called viterbi and trellis encoding, these limit the accepted signal transition from one dibit, qbit to another. In addition, modern modems train the channel. That's the white noise you hear at the beginning of the dialup - both ends are doing equalization for this connection. If errors occur, they fall back to lower data rates and retrain. Our 56K modems never get there here in the US, it is an FCC limit, and the reasons I am not sure. These basic principles above also apply to cell/radio transmission. There are other goodies they can throw into the algorithms to reduce multipath reflection (ghosts, as in TV) due to buildings objects, aircraft. to conclude, Ill bet with a homemade cell phone acoustic coupler to -> RJ-45 jack interface you could get same performance as dialup, near 56K. Needed: Sponge/muffs to adapt the cell handset electrostatic mic/speaker some op amp stuff to get the signals leveled resolve the dial-in and dial-out issues to fool the PC for dial tone and auto answer (and interface to the cell keypad to answer and send) Randy >From: Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> >To: talk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling >Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:39:38 -0700 (PDT) > >my application anyway. What is the typical maximum >speed of such a device, be it antiquated (I actually >used to have one of the old Radio Shack units), or >home-brewed. > And lookee, here's what I had: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/RADIO-SHACK-ACOUSTIC-COUPLER-MODEM- >TRS-80-AC-3_W0QQitemZ180098721480QQcategoryZ80229QQss >PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > In fact, that's an acoustic modem. What I'd like to >implement is a "bridge" if you will between a modem >and a cellular device that would allow connection to >the internet. Ingenious, no? ;) > Please, no one tell me about software and such that's >presently available on the market. I'm aware of it, >own 99% of it, and I'll say here and now it's flakey >at best. > The technology is antiquated enough, albeit not the >application. O woe is me :( > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love >(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. >http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 _________________________________________________________________ 5.5%* 30 year fixed mortgage rate. Good credit refinance. Up to 5 free quotes - *Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2a5d&s=4056&p=5117&disc=y&vers=910 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 24 19:03:03 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:03:03 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <m1HVG3G-000J1GC@p850ug1> References: <m1HVG3G-000J1GC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <C4E29609-9A1D-4009-9A4F-5C41C6BC1A9F@neurotica.com> On Mar 24, 2007, at 7:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I think I did read of a module that was essentially a > cellphonemodem. You > stuck a SIM card in it, it haf a serial port that took Hayes commands, > and you could dial up any other modem (cellular or landline) using the > cellphone network. I have no idea if it's still available or how much. There are many such modules available, with more being developed. See http://www.sparkfun.com/ under Cellular->Modules. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Mar 24 17:31:43 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:31:43 -0600 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use Message-ID: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> I have a friend who has an older AS/400 in his personal collection of computers. (It is in the collection because the AS/400 is unique enough to be interesting.) He doesn't know a lot about it but he did manage to get a console, wire it correctly, and get to the OS/400 command line. To do anything remotely interesting with the machine he needs to have a development environment. I am figuring green screen COBOL, C and RPG are good enough. Does anybody know how to engage IBM to find out if license keys are available for home/hobbyist use? (Other manufacturers like DEC did this for their 'bigger' iron.) Mike PS: I work for IBM and I have code in every release of the AS/400 from V3R6 on up, and even I don't know where to go for this one ... From marvin at rain.org Sat Mar 24 17:36:55 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 15:36:55 -0700 Subject: Northstar Dimension Message-ID: <4605A807.6D183997@rain.org> A Northstar Dimension is up on Ebay, item #140097327621. I've dealt with the seller before on VCM, and he is a good guy. This is the first picture I've seen of the N* Dimension, and it is interesting! Right now, there are about 23 hours left on the auction. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 24 18:34:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:34:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 lower regulator board In-Reply-To: <001101c76dc1$7a507f40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 23, 7 10:06:54 pm Message-ID: <m1HVFl6-000J15C@p850ug1> > > Hey, that thing is hard to get to! Someone tightened down the screws in the It's a right pain, isn't it! > back that hold the regulator in place, so after undoing the two screws in > front it still won't slide out. Is there a trick to this? Do I have to take > the whole supply out? Can't get a screw driver in there with the upper H742 > in place :\ Getting the H742 supplies out is a pain too, due to the fan wiring. You have to unbolt the fans, drop them into the space where the 'bricks' go, and then disconenct the wiring from each fan. I seem to remeber unscrewing the _top_ H742 supply from the rack and moving it out of the way without disconnecting the fan wires (I think I had to unplug some of the mate-n-lock connectors). Then I could get to the screws in the lower supply. There are, of course, screwdrivers designed to work in such spaces, including ones with bevel gearboves in them. Is it possible to use something like that to get at said screws? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 24 18:30:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:30:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: more 11/45 fun In-Reply-To: <000b01c76dc0$10054e00$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 23, 7 09:56:44 pm Message-ID: <m1HVFhI-000J12C@p850ug1> > Further thought and I realized that slots 16 and 21 are for the mos/bipolar > memory controllers. I don't have mos/bipolar memory. So I was wondering what > else comes off that regulator board on the bottom 742. From recent memory I > believe I recall the LTC comes from there. But LTC being fried wouldn't I thought that ACLO, DCLO, and LTC all came from the top H742, if only because that's the one where the 'ground' rail of the PSU board is connected to system ground. > cause the cpu to fail to come up would it? And since I'm not actually using > mos/bipolar I'm left wondering what else is coming off that board. AC lo or > DC lo signal perhaps? I seem to remember that something odd was done to the > regulator board in that lower 742 to make the output -15v instead of 15v > like the top 742. It's n example of one of VOnada's laws 'There is no such thing as ground'. What they did was connect the rail called '+15V' on the PSU prints to system ground.. That means the rail called 'ground' on the PSU prints is now -15V wrt suystem ground (think about it!). And that's what they called the -15V output. But this also means the ACLO, DCLO and LTC outputs of the lower H742 are references to the -15V rail. Hence the 'Do Not Connect' warnings on the power harness prints. I don't think they're used for anything. I rememebr the system clock generator needs a -15V supply (that's the CPU clock, not the line time clock or antthing like that). I can't remember if that comes from the lower H742, or from the -15V 'brick'. > > In any case, I obviously SHOULD fix the regulator in the bottom 742 so I get > that -15v back but I am left curious as to if that is what is causing the > cpu to suddenly no longer come up and run. Am I on the right track here? Well, my advice is to correct any problem that you find, whether it's directly related to the fualt or not. This machine was supposed to have a -15V supply coming from the lower H742, so let's get that working again. There may of course be other faults to trace too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 24 18:53:31 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:53:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <897406.23024.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Mar 24, 7 01:39:38 pm Message-ID: <m1HVG3G-000J1GC@p850ug1> > > my application anyway. What is the typical maximum > speed of such a device, be it antiquated (I actually I think the ones we had (have?) over here were either 300 baud full-duplex devices or the 1200/75 baud 'prestel' standard. I think somebody tried to get an accoustic coupler working with a 2400 baud modelm ,but it was darn unreliable. > > In fact, that's an acoustic modem. What I'd like to > implement is a "bridge" if you will between a modem > and a cellular device that would allow connection to > the internet. Ingenious, no? ;) If your idea is to transmit and receive modem tones using a cellphone, why don't you start witha handsfree kit for said cellphone. At least you'll have audio I/O on the wires to the microphone and earpiece that you can presumably make use of. It would cut out the accoustic coupling part, with its attendant problems. I'm not sure how the bendwith, etc, of cellphone audio compares to a landline. You may still have baud rate limitations. I think I did read of a module that was essentially a cellphonemodem. You stuck a SIM card in it, it haf a serial port that took Hayes commands, and you could dial up any other modem (cellular or landline) using the cellphone network. I have no idea if it's still available or how much. -tony From ngriffis at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 24 20:51:23 2007 From: ngriffis at bellsouth.net (Nick Griffis) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:51:23 -0500 Subject: Anyone have IBM Diagnostics diskette? Message-ID: <MDEKIANPKNJEFNMICBHKOEGECEAA.ngriffis@bellsouth.net> Dear Sirs, Would you please let me know your best guess wholesale and retail values of the following IBM Manuals and disks: IBM 1.1 DOS #6024001 IBM 2.00 DOS #6024061 IBM 2.02 Guide to Operations #6025000 IBM BASIC #6025010 Thank you for any help you can give me in valuing these items, Nick Griffis ngriffis at bellsouth.net From tponsford at rnsmte.com Sat Mar 24 20:01:44 2007 From: tponsford at rnsmte.com (tponsford) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:01:44 -0700 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <001d01c76e5f$8e0095e0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <001d01c76e5f$8e0095e0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <4605C9F8.3070001@rnsmte.com> Hi All, I would like the answer to that question too?? The Blue Box Alpha's (255/333mhz) sell for over $500 on ebay, yet the Blue Box AS 500's a faster machine, sell for less. A Digital Workstation @667mhz sell for barely the cost of shipping!! I have been picking up a metric buttload of the AS200 and a few AS250's for a couple of dollars a piece at the local auctions. Of course some have no memory or the power supply is toast but I got more than a dozen that work just fine and have "a lot of parts" to keep 'em running for a while. Bit you rarely see alpha stations 200's on Ebay and those that do can go for as much as $200..?? Even the AS200 4/100, a 100mhz machine will go for over $50.00!! Am I missing something here? Cheers Tom P. Dan Snyder wrote: > Maybe some can answer this question. Every (it seems) AlphaStation 200/250/255 that appears > on ebay ends up selling for more than what I *think* is a reasonable price. Maybe maintenance org's > buying spares? Are they used by some telecoms? I used to have the 255's as Operator interface > displays for process monitor/control. They used DUnix 4.0E and some apps from Siemens. I was able > to replace them with DS10's with little effort. I can maybe see why a DS10 would go for a high price, but > not the 200/250/255. > > AlphaStation 200 - mostly Alpha cpus @166 or 233MHz > AlphaStation 250 - Alpha cpu @266MHz > AlphaStation 255 - Alpha cpu @233/266/300MHz > > They were and are not _that_ fast and memory expansion is limited. I realize at the time (1995-1998) > time frame these machines were very fast, but this is 2007, you could purchase a used DS10 or DS20 and > gain alot of power for less money. > > Clue me in please, > > Dan @ Butler, PA > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 24 20:10:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <20070324180837.L25008@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007, Randy Dawson wrote: > We will get several comments after this post... > I hope y'all will correct me. > > The acoustic coupler on the old teletype was 1200 baud, 10 characters per 1200 baud ??? You need less than a tenth of that for 10 chars per sec > to conclude, Ill bet with a homemade cell phone acoustic coupler to -> RJ-45 ??? D'ya mean a phone jack? That is RJ-11/RJ-14 From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 24 20:15:58 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:15:58 -0700 Subject: ModComp / Diablo project In-Reply-To: <732172.6761.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1e1fc3e90703241218r3a4a4c62i4fd33d91146821e9@mail.gmail.com> <732172.6761.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90703241815x665b7d9ajee9913dc4495a4fb@mail.gmail.com> On 3/24/07, William Maddox <wmaddox at pacbell.net> wrote: > > Unfortunately, it appears that the auction has now > closed. :( > > --Bill > Fortunately for me, at least. The closing price was less than what it will cost me in gas to go pick it up. :-) -Glen From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 24 20:18:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <m1HVG3G-000J1GC@p850ug1> References: <m1HVG3G-000J1GC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20070324181202.N25008@shell.lmi.net> > What is the typical maximum > speed of such a device, 'twould seem that anything that goes through an analog/voice phone line should work with acoustic coupling OTOH, if you want to do FSK (Frequency shift keying), and want to do it by counting cycles to differentiate the different tones, then think about how many cycles you would need to identify a tone. If it is equal to, or more than 1, then you're not going to get more bits per second than the lowest tone's number of cycles per second. Therefore, you need to play games with more than one bit per audio tone to get past about 1200 bits per second. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 24 20:29:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:29:02 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <20070324181202.N25008@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1HVG3G-000J1GC@p850ug1> <20070324181202.N25008@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <53688170-AA1D-4A78-A942-C56040A1F2AE@neurotica.com> On Mar 24, 2007, at 9:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> What is the typical maximum >> speed of such a device, > > 'twould seem that anything that goes through an analog/voice phone > line > should work with acoustic coupling Not if you take into account the frequency response of a typical speaker/microphone combination. Such a coupler is far from perfect. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 24 20:50:16 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:50:16 -0500 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <20070324181202.N25008@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <BAY120-F160400914B81B989F89F1FBA680@phx.gbl> Hey Fred, I think you should review Claude Shannon, if we are going to get into a bits per bandwidth argument. I think the bell 103, 203 standards for modems were still 1200, 2400 FSK even if the baud was 110. Thanks Fred, for reply, this modem stuff is my favorite topic at the moment. I am working on my own implementation of all of these in a DSP. Randy >From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Subject: Re: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling >Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:18:50 -0700 (PDT) > > > What is the typical maximum > > speed of such a device, > >'twould seem that anything that goes through an analog/voice phone line >should work with acoustic coupling > > >OTOH, if you want to do FSK (Frequency shift keying), and want to do it by >counting cycles to differentiate the different tones, then think about how >many cycles you would need to identify a tone. If it is equal to, or more >than 1, then you're not going to get more bits per second than the lowest >tone's number of cycles per second. Therefore, you need to play games >with more than one bit per audio tone to get past about 1200 bits per >second. > > _________________________________________________________________ It?s tax season, make sure to follow these few simple tips http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMMartagline From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 24 22:45:33 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:45:33 -0800 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> Message-ID: <p0624085bc22ba04d7748@[192.168.1.199]> At 4:31 PM -0600 3/24/07, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >I have a friend who has an older AS/400 in his personal collection >of computers. (It is in the collection because the AS/400 is unique >enough to be interesting.) He doesn't know a lot about it but he >did manage to get a console, wire it correctly, and get to the >OS/400 command line. > >To do anything remotely interesting with the machine he needs to >have a development environment. I am figuring green screen COBOL, C >and RPG are good enough. Does anybody know how to engage IBM to >find out if license keys are available for home/hobbyist use? >(Other manufacturers like DEC did this for their 'bigger' iron.) Realistically DEC is the only one that did this. To the best of my knowledge IBM hasn't offered a Hobbyist Program for anything. I would love to be proven wrong, as I would actually be interested in getting a small AS/400 at some point in the future. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Mar 24 22:28:35 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:28:35 -0400 Subject: One answer to "Wot duzzit do?" - OS/8 Adventure V2.0. Message-ID: <200703250328.l2P3Sawm008808@mail.itm-inst.com> In what is the longest time *I* am aware of between Version 1.0 and Version 2.0 of a program (1979-2007), I'm happy to announce an updated version (2.0) of Adventure for your OS/8 system. (OK, I could have delayed this a couple of years and made it 30 years between releases..) Thanks to a list member that supplied me with the DECUS sources and Bob Supnik's RT-11 Adventure source, as well as a few helpful OS/8 FORTRAN libraries on the Internet, I've managed to not only recover the program source, but also make several improvements in the way it works. Unfortunately, it's still a memory hog that needs 32KW to run. I'm making source and binary floppies in SIMH-format, a zip file with all sources, and a web page with the individual source files available. http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html has pointers to the SIMH floppy images, sources, etc. Happy exploring! -Rick From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 24 22:53:58 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:53:58 -0400 Subject: ModComp / Diablo project In-Reply-To: <001401c76e5b$b85ed350$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1e1fc3e90703241218r3a4a4c62i4fd33d91146821e9@mail.gmail.com> <001401c76e5b$b85ed350$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <D137413A-A22F-4E83-B6B7-512F584CA276@neurotica.com> On Mar 24, 2007, at 5:30 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Anyone else notice this one: >> >> http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/Auction10925/ >> lotimagesEVER0205/2237107.JPG >> >> Looks like an interesting ModComp project, complete with Diablo? >> disk drives. > > Oh my. That would make for a really nice (and fun) restoration > project. My hands are already full though.... It sure would. I'd love to get my hands on even just the drives. Aren't those Diablo 31s? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat Mar 24 23:16:53 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:16:53 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4affc5e0703242116g6c02ee3xc16c62709f827d57@mail.gmail.com> On 24/03/07, Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> wrote: > to conclude, Ill bet with a homemade cell phone acoustic coupler to -> RJ-45 > jack interface you could get same performance as dialup, near 56K. Sorry, but no. As a previos poster has pointed out, you'll hit the codec (not G.711, but likely AMR for GSM phones, SMV for CDMA, or some older codecs on TDMA systems), which tends to be speech specific, and thus be really bad for any type of modulation coding. All POTS modems assume a more-or-less linear channel. You'll also hit against a few of Shannons' laws... in any case, you can't get data through a channel at any rate higher than the lowest in the chain - and the aforementioned codecs will give you decent speech quality even down below 10 kbps. Furthermore, the CDMA codecs are variable rate, since you're sharing badwidth with everyone else. It comes down to that you really can't do better than using the data mode of your handset. It's just that the codecs are so good the you have the impression you're on a good line most of the time (and when they fail, they degrade _really_ bad). I've worked on the AMR-WB, VMR-WB and AMR-WB+ codecs (hello to anyone from UdeS!) - it's a damn shame no one is actually really using them yet. The technology to have cell phones sound better than landlines (even at 14kbps and below) has been around for years now. Joe. PS. There is also a reason modems will never ever go above 56k. 56k can only happen in the ideal case where you are really close to your local office. At that point, the analog signal is digitized (u or a-law) and sent over a 64kbps digital circuit - a slice of a T1 or T3 or OCwhatever. One of the bits is stolen for signaling - so your bitrate is 7/8th of 64kbps: 56kbps. That is the slowest link in the system to your "analog modem" ISP. And this will only work if the ISP gets your circuit on a digital line (so the "analog modem" of the ISP is actually fully digital) - the 56kbps modulation scheme does not withstand a second D/A-A/D conversion. Hooray for ADSL... From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 24 23:31:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:31:44 -0400 Subject: One answer to "Wot duzzit do?" - OS/8 Adventure V2.0. In-Reply-To: <200703250328.l2P3Sawm008808@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200703250328.l2P3Sawm008808@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <E1D9BFE8-8571-4036-8095-DC89F708733D@neurotica.com> On Mar 24, 2007, at 11:28 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: > In what is the longest time *I* am aware of between Version 1.0 and > Version 2.0 of a program (1979-2007), I'm happy to announce an > updated version (2.0) of Adventure for your OS/8 system. > (OK, I could have delayed this a couple of years and made it 30 > years between releases..) > > Thanks to a list member that supplied me with the DECUS sources and > Bob Supnik's RT-11 Adventure source, as well as a few helpful OS/8 > FORTRAN libraries on the Internet, I've managed to not only recover > the program source, but also make several improvements in the way > it works. Unfortunately, it's still a memory hog that needs 32KW to > run. > > I'm making source and binary floppies in SIMH-format, a zip file > with all sources, and a web page with the individual source files > available. > > http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html has pointers to the SIMH > floppy images, sources, etc. > > Happy exploring! Oh My. 8-) Today IS a good day! Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Mar 25 00:41:34 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:41:34 -0500 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations Message-ID: <003301c76ea0$3fd69a40$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> I would agree, with Zane in that I would prefer an XP1000 @667Mhz to use every day. The apps I have maintained have migrated easily from and AS200 in 1995 to the XP1000 without issues, VMS 6.2 to 7.3. Maybe it is easier to do like kind replacement, you know all ports the same. The AS200/233 go for at time over $300 US. Once in a while an AS300 (AS250) can be found for less, depends on haw the ebay listing is worded. Dan @ Butler, PA From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Mar 25 01:09:51 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:09:51 -0500 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations Message-ID: <000a01c76ea4$33406aa0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> AlphaStation 500's are less expensive, but be aware the memory is unusual. Form factor 168pin dimm, 5v, FPM. The machine has two banks, each requires 4 dimms per bank. I have not been able to find any of these dimms. The AS500/400 I currently have, has both banks filled with 8x64M dimms (512M), the way it was configured when I received it. Dan @ Butler, PA From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Mar 25 05:14:51 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 02:14:51 -0800 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46064B9B.7020103@msm.umr.edu> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I have a friend who has an older AS/400 in his personal collection of > computers. (It is in the collection because the AS/400 is unique > enough to be interesting.) He doesn't know a lot about it but he did > manage to get a console, wire it correctly, and get to the OS/400 > command line. > > To do anything remotely interesting with the machine he needs to have > a development environment. I am figuring green screen COBOL, C and > RPG are good enough. Does anybody know how to engage IBM to find out > if license keys are available for home/hobbyist use? (Other > manufacturers like DEC did this for their 'bigger' iron.) > I have a friend who has a system that he loads OS/400 on, and lets it turn into a pumpkin every couple of months, and just keeps reloading it. I don't know what sorts of development you can do on the system, as it is closed. I would think that most development just consists of customizing either IBM aps, or those you have purchased. I have heard from him that you can run for some time on a single terminal (unknown how long, but I recall the couple of month time frame) and then just reload. good enough for testing and play. jim From dmhills at gmail.com Sun Mar 25 05:32:38 2007 From: dmhills at gmail.com (Don Hills) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:32:38 +1200 Subject: OS/2 Warp 4 disk image needed In-Reply-To: <C2232274.1920%rcini@optonline.net> References: <C2232274.1920%rcini@optonline.net> Message-ID: <2cbc8a1a0703250332q749dfc95s79c77fb653866d6b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/19/07, Richard A. Cini <rcini at optonline.net> wrote: > > All: > > I?m trying to resurrect a copy of OS/2 Warp 4 and I seem to have a bad > disk image. Does anyone have an image of Disk 17 that they can send me? > Also, does anyone know how many floppy disks Warp 4 contains? I?m afraid > that the damaged archive is truncated so I don?t know how many images I > might have had in it. > > All of the floppy images are on the Warp 4 CDROM. There are 24 base images, 7 display driver images, 7 printer driver images and 5 WINOS2 images. From hamren at sdu.se Sun Mar 25 08:05:30 2007 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:05:30 +0200 Subject: Computer Automation collection. Message-ID: <17926.29594.827618.56677@localhost.localdomain> Hi, Time to introduce myself. My name is Lars Hamr?n, and I live in Sweden. My very first computer was a 16-bit Computer Automation Alpha LSI-2, that at first I programmed in Basic, and them in assembly. Some time ago I decided that, for sentimental reasons, I wanted an LSI-2, but soon discovered that CA was virtually forgotten and that very little remained. My scope was therefore expanded to try to collect and save as my of CA:s computer side as possible. (CA also made automatid test equipment). With a little luck, a lot of e-mails and phone calls, and a lot of help from other people, some of whom are active on this list (thank you!), I have been able to collect more than I initially hoped for, but a lot is of course still missing. There is a web site dedicated to the project at http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/ It details parts of the collection. I would very much like to get in contact with anyone who has information on these machines, or who has first-, second- third- or eve fourth-hand experience with these machines, or may know of someone who has. They are really becoming very rare, so *ANY* help and information is likely to be of value. Kind regards /Lars Hamr?n ------------------------------------------------------------------- Lars Hamr?n Tel...: +46( 46)189090 Svensk Datorutveckling Mobile: +46(705)189090 Vadm?llan 211 e-mail: hamren at sdu.se S-225 94 Lund WWW...: www.sdu.se Sweden From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 25 10:00:37 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:00:37 -0500 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <4605C9F8.3070001@rnsmte.com> References: <001d01c76e5f$8e0095e0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> <4605C9F8.3070001@rnsmte.com> Message-ID: <46068E95.60909@mdrconsult.com> tponsford wrote: > Hi All, > > I would like the answer to that question too?? The Blue Box Alpha's > (255/333mhz) sell for over $500 > on ebay, yet the Blue Box AS 500's a faster machine, sell for less. A > Digital Workstation @667mhz sell for barely > the cost of shipping!! snip > Am I missing something here? I've discussed this with a reseller friend before. He doesn't deal in Alphas, but we've both noticed this for a couple of years, at least. He figures that the 255s are deployed in some environments where certifying new hardware would cost a lot more than paying silly prices for replacement-in-kind. We've all seen that sort of thing, so although it's just a guess, it makes sense. Doc From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Mar 25 11:37:01 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:37:01 -0600 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <46064B9B.7020103@msm.umr.edu> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> <46064B9B.7020103@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4606A52D.6070901@brutman.com> jim wrote: > I have a friend who has a system that he loads > OS/400 on, and lets it turn into a pumpkin every > couple of months, and just keeps reloading it. > > I don't know what sorts of development you can > do on the system, as it is closed. I would think > that most development just consists of customizing > either IBM aps, or those you have purchased. I > have heard from him that you can run for some time > on a single terminal (unknown how long, but I recall > the couple of month time frame) and then just reload. > > good enough for testing and play. > I don't understand the comment - with compilers you can do any development you want. That's why he needs license keys. Otherwise, signing onto AS/400 and reloading it every few months isn't very fulfilling. The AS/400 isn't known as a hackers box, but it does do C, TCP/IP, etc. And some releases of OS/400 (the later ones) are POSIX compliant. It's not a closed system. -Mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 25 10:49:45 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:49:45 -0700 Subject: ModComp / Diablo project In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90703241815x665b7d9ajee9913dc4495a4fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <BAY138-F28D24D98E35D440D998F0AA3680@phx.gbl> >From: "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com> > >On 3/24/07, William Maddox <wmaddox at pacbell.net> wrote: >> >>Unfortunately, it appears that the auction has now >>closed. :( >> >>--Bill >> > >Fortunately for me, at least. The closing price was less than what it >will cost me in gas to go pick it up. :-) > >-Glen Hi There are a number of ModCom pieces in ebay stores. The fellow seems to think the boards are made of gold or silver but they are there. I'm not familiar with ModComp. Does anyone have some stories or information on these? Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Live Search Maps ? find all the local information you need, right when you need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag2&FORM=MGAC01 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 25 11:08:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:08:36 -0700 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <46063C14.7977.2B7CBB6B@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Mar 2007 at 17:57, Randy Dawson wrote: > The acoustic coupler on the old teletype was 1200 baud, 10 characters per > sec. to match the machine. It was FSK (Frequency Shift Keying) with two > tones 1200hz and 2400hz for 0 and one. Depending on the # of start, stop > bits in the serial stream and parity baud .NE. bytes/sec. The old ASR 32/33 modems were strictly analog devices. I doubt that they could have responded at a 1200 baud rate. I thought that Bell 103 frequencies were used, but I'm not certain. The original acoustic couplers were designed for TDD use and ran at about 50 baud. I can tell you that 'way back when, a couple of us tried to see how fast a pair of old Anderson Jacobsen modems would run and we didn't get past 450 baud--and much less than that when calling Los Gatos (Bay area old-timers may remember this). Again, other than for the level conversion to RS-232C levels at the output, these were strictly analog devices. "Modern" 56K modems rely on the the digital 64Kbit nature of phone lines and require a digital interface to the line at the far end. The 56K arises out of the simple fact that, while the telco uses a 64K bit rate, some of the bits are reserved by the telco for signalling and control. You can't do 56K over a strictly analog phone line--if digital capabilities aren't sensed, the protocol degrades to V.32/34/34 bis. I believe that 8 carriers are used with 128 levels per carrier, although it's been awhile since I read the standard. Cheers, Chuck From gklinger at gmail.com Sun Mar 25 11:09:06 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:09:06 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0703242116g6c02ee3xc16c62709f827d57@mail.gmail.com> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> <4affc5e0703242116g6c02ee3xc16c62709f827d57@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <e662ba380703250909g22dbcbd1la3568e0ad93a8469@mail.gmail.com> This may be slightly OT but I've got an unused, new-in-box Radio Shack acoustic coupler modem like the one in the eBay auction mentioned in the original post that has been sitting around for entirely too long (25+ years) so if anyone wants one, drop me a line. I ended up buying a Hayes Smartmodem 300 that I used instead and never got around to returning the RS modem. Whoops. Still has the original price tag on it which is a constant reminder that my laziness has cost me a small fortune over the years. -- Golan Klinger <gklinger at gmail.com> Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 25 12:34:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:34:52 -0700 Subject: One answer to "Wot duzzit do?" - OS/8 Adventure V2.0. In-Reply-To: <200703250328.l2P3Sawm008808@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200703250328.l2P3Sawm008808@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <4606B2BC.6000908@jetnet.ab.ca> Rick Murphy wrote: > In what is the longest time *I* am aware of between Version 1.0 and > Version 2.0 of a program (1979-2007), I'm happy to announce an updated > version (2.0) of Adventure for your OS/8 system. > (OK, I could have delayed this a couple of years and made it 30 years > between releases..) You are darn lucky I have not played version 1. :) Now all I need is how to figure how use OS/8 on the hardware I have. Thanks for the update. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 25 11:20:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:20:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> from "Randy Dawson" at Mar 24, 7 05:57:14 pm Message-ID: <m1HVVSP-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > We will get several comments after this post... > I hope y'all will correct me. > > The acoustic coupler on the old teletype was 1200 baud, 10 characters per > second That to me implies 120 signal line changes for each character. Can you please explain what the heck was going on :-) More seriously, most old TTY modems _were_ 10 characters per second, but were 110 baud. 11 signal line changes per character -- start bit, 8 data bits (or 7 data + parity), 2 stop bits. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 25 11:50:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:50:30 -0600 Subject: One answer to "Wot duzzit do?" - OS/8 Adventure V2.0. In-Reply-To: <200703250328.l2P3Sawm008808@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200703250328.l2P3Sawm008808@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703250950j45b66516v587b65ac82676735@mail.gmail.com> On 3/24/07, Rick Murphy <rick at rickmurphy.net> wrote: > In what is the longest time *I* am aware of between Version 1.0 and > Version 2.0 of a program (1979-2007), I'm happy to announce an updated > version (2.0) of Adventure for your OS/8 system. Superb! > Unfortunately, it's still a memory hog that needs 32KW to run. That's to be expected. It might be tough to get 32KW on an -8/i, but it wasn't all that rare from the -8/e onward. > http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html has pointers to the SIMH > floppy images, sources, etc. Thanks, Rick! I'm sure Bob Armstrong is among the happy folks today ( http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/SBC6120_Adventure.htm ) -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 12:31:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:31:26 -0400 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <46064B9B.7020103@msm.umr.edu> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> <46064B9B.7020103@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <BCFDD17E-A9F3-45C2-910A-1F81E599A919@neurotica.com> On Mar 25, 2007, at 6:14 AM, jim wrote: > I don't know what sorts of development you can > do on the system, as it is closed. I would think > that most development just consists of customizing > either IBM aps, or those you have purchased. Umm...There are compilers for a few languages and even a Java VM for OS/400, you know. It being a "closed" system shouldn't really impact software development at the application level if you can actually get the machine running. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 25 13:46:46 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:46:46 -0800 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <4605C9F8.3070001@rnsmte.com> References: <001d01c76e5f$8e0095e0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> <4605C9F8.3070001@rnsmte.com> Message-ID: <p0624085ec22c69fe8413@[192.168.1.199]> At 6:01 PM -0700 3/24/07, tponsford wrote: >Hi All, > >I would like the answer to that question too?? The Blue Box Alpha's >(255/333mhz) sell for over $500 >on ebay, yet the Blue Box AS 500's a faster machine, sell for less. >A Digital Workstation @667mhz sell for barely >the cost of shipping!! Having purchased an AlphaStation 500/333 from Compaq years ago, and owning a couple XP1000's (is this what you mean by Digital Workstations), I might be able to answer a couple of these questions. The AlphaStation 500 is a major pain, it uses memory that in its day was frighteningly expensive. As a result my 500/333 was probably the largest waste of money of *ANY* computer I've ever purchased. My 500/333 only has 96Mb RAM, and shortly after I bought it, I was able to buy my PWS 433au with more RAM for about what more RAM for the AS500 would have cost me. The AS500 is why I always recommend people pay *CLOSE* attention to what RAM a system uses and how much it has. The AS200's and I believe the 250/255's use standard 72-pin Parity SIMM's. The DEC PWS's can use PC100 Parity DIMM's. BTW, in spite of what the spec's say, at least the AS200/233 can use 128MB SIMM's, which will take it up to 768MB RAM. This means it can actually have more RAM than the lower two models of AS500, and almost as much as a PWS. IIRC, RAM in a PWS can be a bit strange, while you might have 1.5GB in one, VMS is only going to see 1GB. I'm not sure quite what the Spec is on the XP1000, but someone gave me some parity DIMM's from a PC server that they like. My main XP1000 system is sitting at 2GB, it might sound like a lot, but I'm sitting at 59% used right now, and if I was to fire up Mozilla, it would be a lot closer to 100%. But then I'm also running a bunch of stuff the typical home user might not bother with. The problem with the XP1000 shows up if you want to run OpenVMS 8.3, when it boots it flashes an error that says you need to update your SRM, and you can't. However, to the best of my knowledge it will work without any problem (so far I've only been running 8.3 since last Thursday night). There are also issues if you want to put a Fibre card in them (I don't have one, but IIRC, it's something along the lines of you need to configure the card in a different system). >fine and have "a lot of parts" to keep 'em running for a while. Bit >you rarely see alpha stations 200's on Ebay and >those that do can go for as much as $200..?? Even the AS200 4/100, a >100mhz machine will go for over $50.00!! > >Am I missing something here? Darn, $200 isn't enough to get me to part with my pair of AS200 4/233's. Mine are a pair of the "OnSale Alpha's" and I still have the original boxes in pristine condition up in storage. I just need to remember what I did with the manuals and the PCMCIA cards that I pulled. I used one for OpenVMS, the other for OpenBSD. I actually purchased a 3rd, but it was for a friend who sold it years ago when he upgraded. The systems that I'm noticing on eBay that are *VERY* interesting are the ES40's that are only about $500. If I had a place to put one, I'd be buying one. As I'm running an XP1000/667 as my primary, and an XP1000/500 as my test box, my next upgrade is going to have to be something along the lines of a DS15 or a Dual CPU DS20/ES40 or something better. This assumes I don't simply move to Itanium 2, however, the Itanium 2 systems are a bit to expensive still, and probably will be for at least 5-6 years. Personally if I was to guess why an AS200 would go for a nice chunk of change, at least to a home user I'd suspect it is a combination of 2 PCI slots (this translates to a video card and either upgraded ethernet or SCSI), it will take a nice chunk of RAM, and it fits in a fairly small space. I've actually been threatening for over a year to set one of mine up as a simple workstation. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 25 13:56:39 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:56:39 -0800 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <46068E95.60909@mdrconsult.com> References: <001d01c76e5f$8e0095e0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> <4605C9F8.3070001@rnsmte.com> <46068E95.60909@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <p0624085fc22c74ac04e2@[192.168.1.199]> At 10:00 AM -0500 3/25/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > He figures that the 255s are deployed in some environments where >certifying new hardware would cost a lot more than paying silly >prices for replacement-in-kind. We've all seen that sort of thing, >so although it's just a guess, it makes sense. The 255 is the same case as the 500 isn't it? If so it could be something as crazy at times as esthetics, as that is the nicest looking Alpha out there. Maybe the "Wife Acceptance Factor" is higher for these systems! :^) OTOH, our oldest would stare at my PWS 433au for hours right after he was first born. He was fascinated with the front of the system. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Mar 25 13:22:23 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:22:23 -0400 Subject: FYI - History of Systems Engineering Laboratories, Inc. [SEL] Message-ID: <4606BDDF.9070308@comcast.net> FYI I just updated the webpage with the history of the Systems Engineering Laboratories, Inc. [SEL], this was the first company I started working for. There were alot of sporadic info spread across too many webpages online so I started to consolidate this into one place. I just received alot of back history from one of the old guys that worked there. So far, there's some interesting stories and links in there. Some pages still need to fill up with some more info, but it's a start. History of Systems Engineering Laboratories, Inc. [SEL] http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/computers_mini.html =Dan From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Mar 25 13:46:43 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:46:43 -0800 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <4606A52D.6070901@brutman.com> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> <46064B9B.7020103@msm.umr.edu> <4606A52D.6070901@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4606C393.5080002@msm.umr.edu> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > jim wrote > I don't understand the comment - with compilers you can do any > development you want. That's why he needs license keys. Otherwise, > signing onto AS/400 and reloading it every few months isn't very > fulfilling. > <snip> > > -Mike Other than OS/400, I don't know of any software that will run w/o keys, though OS/400 will. Sharing keys is not legal, but acquiring the box with all the software may be doable, including keys. I was told that acquiring one with at least OS/400 install media would get it to the prompts. That is as far as I have gone with the thing, since there are plenty of other platforms to build and run software on w/o messing with keys on a proprietary platform. I also have used the twinax on the box for some projects related to work I have had, but only to have a screen put up. it would not and did not matter whether it was on a 36 or an AS/400 sorry for the confusion. Jim From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Mar 25 14:11:35 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:11:35 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 43, Issue 79 Message-ID: <01C76EF2.E7F3BD00@MSE_D03> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:43:45 -0500 From: Richard Lynch <richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com> Subject: Re: baud modifier <snip> Now I just need to convert the current loop on my ASR-33 to RS-232 so I can try it out. Richard Lynch ---------------------- Lots of ways of doing that; here's a simple one (p.4): http://www.edn.com/archives/1998/080398/pdf/16di.pdf mike From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 25 19:47:19 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:47:19 -0500 Subject: 11/45 lower regulator board References: <m1HVFl6-000J15C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <003b01c76f40$51188520$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... > It's a right pain, isn't it! ...snip... > Getting the H742 supplies out is a pain too, due to the fan wiring. ...snip... > I seem to remeber unscrewing the _top_ H742 supply from the rack and > moving it out of the way without disconnecting the fan wires (I think I > had to unplug some of the mate-n-lock connectors). Then I could get to > the screws in the lower supply. I found a way without removing all the fans... a 2x4 from side to side in the bottom of the rack, under the back half of the bottom H742. Then a few wood shims directly under the regulator tray. Then put a small 2x4 in front (and a wood shim or two) between the H742 and the 861. Disconnect all the plugs on the supply and unscrew all the fastners on the cables and the supply. Then you can slide it gently on the wood to the middle of the cabinet and you can easily get to the guts of the power control board. The power harness stays attached to the fans but can move with it if you undid all those fasteners too. A heavy screwdriver under the front, twisted slightly, to align the holes for rebolting it into the rack. Phew. Now that I have the entire regulator board out, I can visually see the fuse F1 is clearly blown (and of course it tests open). I could just replace it, but something obviously caused it to blow. Once I put a new fuse in if it doesn't blow, what should I be looking for in that circuit? Also, couldn't I just plug 20-30vac from a bench supply into this linear supply and then check test points in the circuit? Given it's hard to reach location, that would make it easier to work on if it could be powered up on the bench. Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 25 17:59:55 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:59:55 -0700 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <e662ba380703250909g22dbcbd1la3568e0ad93a8469@mail.gmail.com> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> <4affc5e0703242116g6c02ee3xc16c62709f827d57@mail.gmail.com> <e662ba380703250909g22dbcbd1la3568e0ad93a8469@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4606FEEB.3070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Golan Klinger wrote: > This may be slightly OT but I've got an unused, new-in-box Radio Shack > acoustic coupler modem like the one in the eBay auction mentioned in > the original post that has been sitting around for entirely too long > (25+ years) so if anyone wants one, drop me a line. I ended up buying > a Hayes Smartmodem 300 that I used instead and never got around to > returning the RS modem. Whoops. Still has the original price tag on it > which is a constant reminder that my laziness has cost me a small > fortune over the years. > I think you better find a old phone for your modem. All the modern phones I don't think will you work. I remember trying to use style of modem years ago and all the places I could call were long distance rates. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 25 16:05:01 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 43, Issue 79 In-Reply-To: <01C76EF2.E7F3BD00@MSE_D03> References: <01C76EF2.E7F3BD00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20070325140323.O60705@shell.lmi.net> > Now I just need to convert the current loop on my > ASR-33 to RS-232 so I can try it out. For a quick test, before going to the effort of conversion, . . . the original 5150 "Asynch" serial card could do both RS232 AND could do current loop. Jumper it for current loop, and you can start trying it out now From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 25 16:25:56 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <BAY120-F160400914B81B989F89F1FBA680@phx.gbl> References: <BAY120-F160400914B81B989F89F1FBA680@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <20070325142449.R60705@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007, Randy Dawson wrote: > Hey Fred, > I think you should review Claude Shannon, if we are going to get into a bits > per bandwidth argument. absolutely. I am WAY overdue to go back and reread. > Thanks Fred, for reply, this modem stuff is my favorite topic at the moment. > I am working on my own implementation of all of these in a DSP. that should be fun From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 25 17:06:08 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:06:08 -0800 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <4606C393.5080002@msm.umr.edu> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> <46064B9B.7020103@msm.umr.edu> <4606A52D.6070901@brutman.com> <4606C393.5080002@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <p06240860c22ca213a8f1@[192.168.1.199]> At 10:46 AM -0800 3/25/07, jim wrote: >Sharing keys is not legal, but acquiring the box with all the software >may be doable, including keys. Depending on your budget, it looks to be possible to buy such systems off of eBay. IIRC, it would cost $1000-3000. Yes, I occasionally look at AS/400's on eBay to see what is available, even though I've not bought one. :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 25 18:40:38 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <46063C14.7977.2B7CBB6B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> <46063C14.7977.2B7CBB6B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703252343.TAA01586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > You can't do 56K over a strictly analog phone line-- Um, POTS phone lines *are* strictly analog, from the modem to the CO. I wouldn't want to bet that 56K is impossible even with POTS copper at each end, with suitably smart probing of the signal path and adaption to its observed characteristics. (Which is not to say that modern 56K modems can do that.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From andrew at taswegian.com Sun Mar 25 20:56:17 2007 From: andrew at taswegian.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:56:17 +1000 Subject: some old stuff Message-ID: <004a01c76f49$f21ed0b0$8601a8c0@boofly> Some pictures of my "data numerics DL-8A" are available in a zip file at http://www.taswegian.com/datanumerics.zip Cheers A _____ From: Andrew Davie [mailto:andrew at taswegian.com] Sent: Thursday, 22 March 2007 3:36 PM To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: some old stuff Hey all I've been in and out of the classic computer collecting 'circles' over the past decade and a half, but these days don't have much time to play with the old toys. I thought I'd divest myself of some of the items that I've been collecting and though I wasn't sure if it were appropriate to advertise 'for sale' on the list, it's probably OK to let people know that I have these items and that I'll be happy to provide pictures and/or information for historical reasons. If you are interested in trade/sale discussion please contact me privately (andrew - at - taswegian.com). General questions about functionality/history can go to the list. I have a DataNumerics DL-8A. This is possibly the only one still alive, certainly the only one I've heard of in a decade+ in collectors' hands. It's a front-panel machine very much like an early Altair - lots of blinking lights. Very nice visuals, and appears to work perfectly - I fire it up every year or so. Inside it's an 8080, I think - haven't had it open for a while. Totally wirewrapped, quite neatly made. and with a low serial number in the 20s, from memory. I'll be happy to do images and/or provide additional information as requested. I also have a Dulmont Magnum with original manual. This is one of the very first laptops, comes with a fold-up 4-line LCD display. I haven't had this one working, nor have I tried. I'd be guessing to say it was functional, but there are no obvious issues like battery damage, etc. Weighs a ton, but for its day it was no doubt a portable marvel. I do have an extensive collection of early Soviet calculators and handheld computers. I collected most of these in the mid to late '90s when building my site Museum of Soviet Calculators - http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/soviet.html . The collection includes a prototype or two, including one of the only two known MK-98 machines. The collection as a whole (100 machines?), but not individually is available for trade/sale. Finally, I have a very interesting homebrew machine built by a fairly well known Australian electrical wizard of the '70s and '80s, who published many articles in the aussie electronics magazines. This particular machine was a Signetics 2650 machine, but configured to run 8080 code (and hence, CP/M) through a software emulator. The whole machine, including the video card, was designed and built by the one guy and can be considered historical and one-of-a-kind. That's about it, really. If anyone would like pictures and/or further information on these just ask. Cheers A From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 25 20:56:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 02:56:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 lower regulator board In-Reply-To: <003b01c76f40$51188520$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 25, 7 07:47:19 pm Message-ID: <m1HVeRq-000J0gC@p850ug1> > Phew. Now that I have the entire regulator board out, I can visually see the > fuse F1 is clearly blown (and of course it tests open). I could just replace > it, but something obviously caused it to blow. Once I put a new fuse in if Well, IIRC, there's no current limiting in this supply. If F1 ahs blown, the fault could be a problem in whatever this supply is feeding (and not on this board at all). > it doesn't blow, what should I be looking for in that circuit? Also, > couldn't I just plug 20-30vac from a bench supply into this linear supply > and then check test points in the circuit? Given it's hard to reach Should be fine. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 25 21:14:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:14:58 -0700 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <200703252343.TAA01586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> <46063C14.7977.2B7CBB6B@cclist.sydex.com> <200703252343.TAA01586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46072CA2.4030204@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > I wouldn't want to bet that 56K is impossible even with POTS copper at > each end, with suitably smart probing of the signal path and adaption > to its observed characteristics. (Which is not to say that modern 56K > modems can do that.) That is the other reasion I stay on dial up. I don't think the phone lines here can handle high-speed to my apartment. > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > . > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 25 20:31:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:31:50 -0700 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <200703252343.TAA01586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl>, <46063C14.7977.2B7CBB6B@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703252343.TAA01586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4606C016.27183.2D805F87@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Mar 2007 at 19:40, der Mouse wrote: > > You can't do 56K over a strictly analog phone line-- > > Um, POTS phone lines *are* strictly analog, from the modem to the CO. > > I wouldn't want to bet that 56K is impossible even with POTS copper at > each end, with suitably smart probing of the signal path and adaption > to its observed characteristics. (Which is not to say that modern 56K > modems can do that.) As I understand it, that's not the way 56K works--you can hook two 56K modems back-to-back on your workbench and they won't do 56K. As I understand it, on end has to interface to a digital phone line. One A/D conversion allowed. Hence, the line from you to your ISP is not "striclty" analog. See: http://www.56k.com/basics/basics.shtml Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Mar 25 21:05:43 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:05:43 -0600 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <p06240860c22ca213a8f1@[192.168.1.199]> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> <46064B9B.7020103@msm.umr.edu> <4606A52D.6070901@brutman.com> <4606C393.5080002@msm.umr.edu> <p06240860c22ca213a8f1@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <46072A77.205@brutman.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Depending on your budget, it looks to be possible to buy such systems > off of eBay. IIRC, it would cost $1000-3000. Yes, I occasionally look > at AS/400's on eBay to see what is available, even though I've not > bought one. :^) > > Zane Just to keep mildly on the original topic .. my friend has the AS/400 in his possession already, but would like to get a development environment for it. So that means finding old install media for the compilers and license keys. It's frustrating because I work at IBM in the home of the AS/400 where it was designed and built, and even I don't know how to figure out how to do this. Mike From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 25 22:22:45 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:22:45 -0600 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <4606C016.27183.2D805F87@cclist.sydex.com> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> <46063C14.7977.2B7CBB6B@cclist.sydex.com> <200703252343.TAA01586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4606C016.27183.2D805F87@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070325212131.0685ca58@mail> At 07:31 PM 3/25/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >As I understand it, that's not the way 56K works--you can hook two >56K modems back-to-back on your workbench and they won't do 56K. As >I understand it, on end has to interface to a digital phone line. >One A/D conversion allowed. Hence, the line from you to your ISP is >not "striclty" analog. It says you can't have more than one. It didn't say that one was necessary. That web page dates from late 1996 or early 1997, too. http://www.56k.com/basics/3things.shtml - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 25 21:30:47 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:30:47 -0500 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl><46063C14.7977.2B7CBB6B@cclist.sydex.com><200703252343.TAA01586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><4606C016.27183.2D805F87@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070325212131.0685ca58@mail> Message-ID: <001801c76f4e$c3aa7950$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>As I understand it, that's not the way 56K works--you can hook two >>56K modems back-to-back on your workbench and they won't do 56K. As >>I understand it, on end has to interface to a digital phone line. >>One A/D conversion allowed. Hence, the line from you to your ISP is >>not "striclty" analog. To which John replied... > It says you can't have more than one. It didn't say > that one was necessary. That web page dates from late 1996 > or early 1997, too. Chuck is absolutely correct. One end MUST be a digital connection. For 56K, on the ISP end, the line must be ISDN, PRI, etc. Regular analog POTS line won't work on the ISP end. In ADDITION, there can't be more than one analog to digital transition anywhere in the circuit from source to destination. Bridge clips will also invalidate 56K connections on POTS lines. Jay From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Mar 25 21:39:12 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:39:12 -0700 Subject: One answer to "Wot duzzit do?" - OS/8 Adventure V2.0. In-Reply-To: <200703250328.l2P3Sawm008808@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200703250328.l2P3Sawm008808@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <200703251939.12971.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 24 March 2007 20:28, Rick Murphy wrote: > In what is the longest time *I* am aware of between Version 1.0 and > Version 2.0 of a program (1979-2007), I'm happy to announce an updated > version (2.0) of Adventure for your OS/8 system. > (OK, I could have delayed this a couple of years and made it 30 years > between releases..) > > Thanks to a list member that supplied me with the DECUS sources and Bob > Supnik's RT-11 Adventure source, as well as a few helpful OS/8 FORTRAN > libraries on the Internet, I've managed to not only recover the program > source, but also make several improvements in the way it works. > Unfortunately, it's still a memory hog that needs 32KW to run. > > I'm making source and binary floppies in SIMH-format, a zip file with > all sources, and a web page with the individual source files available. > > http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html has pointers to the SIMH > floppy images, sources, etc. Thanks! It'll make my PDP-8/e (and me) a happy camper... The first time I played "Adventure" was on a PDP-11/70 in the mid seventies. IIRC, it took me over 300 hours to complete the first time. I must've been a slow learner... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Mar 25 21:52:31 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:52:31 -0700 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <p06240860c22ca213a8f1@[192.168.1.199]> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> <4606C393.5080002@msm.umr.edu> <p06240860c22ca213a8f1@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <200703251952.31407.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 25 March 2007 15:06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:46 AM -0800 3/25/07, jim wrote: > >Sharing keys is not legal, but acquiring the box with all the software > >may be doable, including keys. > > Depending on your budget, it looks to be possible to buy such systems > off of eBay. IIRC, it would cost $1000-3000. Yes, I occasionally > look at AS/400's on eBay to see what is available, even though I've > not bought one. :^) AS/400's are regularly available here in the Bay Area (California). Prices for smaller systems range from $100 to $250. They are generally in excellent condition. I've seen many with disk drives (very important for AS/400's as they use a AS/400 specific drives). Contact me off-list if you want me to "keep my eyes open" for one. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 25 22:10:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:10:06 -0700 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <001801c76f4e$c3aa7950$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl>, <001801c76f4e$c3aa7950$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4606D71E.3643.2DDA57A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Mar 2007 at 21:30, Jay West wrote: > One end MUST be a digital connection. For 56K, > on the ISP end, the line must be ISDN, PRI, etc. Regular analog POTS line > won't work on the ISP end. In ADDITION, there can't be more than one analog > to digital transition anywhere in the circuit from source to destination. > Bridge clips will also invalidate 56K connections on POTS lines. Apropos to the vintage aspect... Telcos used to (maybe prior to 1990) offer copper-to-copper connections for things like fire and burglar alarms. Some enterprising souls were making a go of using these connections instead of ISDN (probably over a short haul, it might work). I was surprised at how quickly all of the RBOCs got rid of the all-copper arrangement. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 25 23:41:47 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 23:41:47 -0500 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <200703251952.31407.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> <4606C393.5080002@msm.umr.edu> <p06240860c22ca213a8f1@[192.168.1.199]> <200703251952.31407.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <46074F0B.6000200@mdrconsult.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > AS/400's are regularly available here in the Bay Area (California). Prices for > smaller systems range from $100 to $250. They are generally in excellent > condition. I've seen many with disk drives (very important for AS/400's as > they use a AS/400 specific drives). Contact me off-list if you want me to > "keep my eyes open" for one. Common lore about the AS/400 is that for the CISC systems, IOW anything that ran pre-V4 OS/400, are nodelocked. Keys for the OS are tagged to the CPUID, and IBM's idea of a hobbyist license is $15,000 a shot. If you fall into a system with the disks intact, you can run whatever software's on it. That's about the extent of it. The RISC systems, otoh, are licensed by right of ownership. At least as regards the base OS, if you own the hardware you are licensed to run OS/400. Doc From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 26 01:04:27 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 01:04:27 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform Message-ID: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> I spent the weekend obsessing over what the fastest editor I could find for a 4.77MHz 8088, DOS, CGA platform. The results, if anyone is interested, are here: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/texteditors No doubt I will get some scorn for knocking Brief and other venerable editors, but the truth is I have very specific needs: 1. Instant screen response to user input, and 2. a functional undo. That's it, really, and I was surprised how many text editors did not fit the bill. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bear at typewritten.org Mon Mar 26 02:02:46 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:02:46 -0700 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use In-Reply-To: <46074F0B.6000200@mdrconsult.com> References: <4605A6CF.7090205@brutman.com> <4606C393.5080002@msm.umr.edu> <p06240860c22ca213a8f1@[192.168.1.199]> <200703251952.31407.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <46074F0B.6000200@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <440E925F-034C-46A7-95DC-755C8EBB7438@typewritten.org> On Mar 25, 2007, at 9:41 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > The RISC systems, otoh, are licensed by right of ownership. At > least as regards the base OS, if you own the hardware you are > licensed to run OS/400. Close, but wrong. OS/400 V4 (and later) is licensed by hardware ownership, i.e. you own the hardware you can transfer the existing license from the prior owner. Supposedly IBM will sell you media in this case for $100, but in practice if the software is beyond its support life, i.e. all V4 releases, you're out of luck. The first RISC release was V3R7 (or maybe it was V3R6). It is not possible to transfer the license for these versions if you get a machine with this version installed. It is true the last CISC release was V3R1, so no CISC machine can have its licenses transferred. ok bear From andrew at taswegian.com Mon Mar 26 04:28:17 2007 From: andrew at taswegian.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:28:17 +1000 Subject: Dulmont Magnum Message-ID: <001601c76f89$16efde90$6500a8c0@boofly> Some pictures of my Dulmont Magnum are available at http://www.taswegian.com/dulmont.zip (about 18MB download). There don't seem to be too many pictures of this around, so thought I'd post these for those interested. Cheers A From RAY_ALLAN at solectron.co.uk Mon Mar 26 04:56:17 2007 From: RAY_ALLAN at solectron.co.uk (Allan, Ray) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:56:17 +0100 Subject: CTX Panoview 630 power supply pinout? Message-ID: <C652C5A362C1B74EB0C9E380C788FF2E2679C9@dfm2kexc01.uk.emea.slr.com> Hi Ethan, did you manage to find the power supply info you requested for the Panoview 630, as I have just aquired one but without the power supply. Ray From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 26 05:12:54 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:12:54 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:30:47 CDT." <001801c76f4e$c3aa7950$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200703261012.l2QACsTQ031081@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>As I understand it, that's not the way 56K works--you can hook two >>>56K modems back-to-back on your workbench and they won't do 56K. As >>>I understand it, on end has to interface to a digital phone line. >>>One A/D conversion allowed. Hence, the line from you to your ISP is >>>not "striclty" analog. Last time I did this (we make a small box with 2000 modem modems in it), the modems were fed from a T1/T3 with digital data. The subscriber's data came from the CO in digital form and hit our modems as digital data. No doubt it started as analog on their loop and immediately got digitized (7 bits) and stuffed into a T1 where it stayed digital until it hit us. The modem code was highly tuned for this configuration. >Bridge clips will also invalidate 56K connections on POTS lines. ps: I'm not sure I believe this... if it says "may effect and possible degrade" I'd sign up. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 26 05:16:31 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:16:31 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:10:06 PDT." <4606D71E.3643.2DDA57A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703261016.l2QAGVFP031292@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >Telcos used to (maybe prior to 1990) offer copper-to-copper >connections for things like fire and burglar alarms. Some >enterprising souls were making a go of using these connections >instead of ISDN (probably over a short haul, it might work). I was >surprised at how quickly all of the RBOCs got rid of the all-copper >arrangement. They still offer this (Verizon, anyway). It's tariffed. I do this now with 2 SDSL modems I bought for $25 on ebay. The copper is $40/month and I get about 1mbit/second between my house and office. I run off-site backups and I'm typing this using VNC over the same link. -brad From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 05:50:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:50:19 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <4606D71E.3643.2DDA57A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl>, <001801c76f4e$c3aa7950$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4606D71E.3643.2DDA57A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5A27A2B4-E9CA-45AF-AD94-19C8EF7208D3@neurotica.com> On Mar 25, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Apropos to the vintage aspect... > > Telcos used to (maybe prior to 1990) offer copper-to-copper > connections for things like fire and burglar alarms. Some > enterprising souls were making a go of using these connections > instead of ISDN (probably over a short haul, it might work). I was > surprised at how quickly all of the RBOCs got rid of the all-copper > arrangement. That's not so apropos to the vintage aspect, actually. I managed a DSL plant as one of my company's "side projects" using telco dry copper until I changed jobs four months ago. We had maybe thirty lines on that setup. Many (most?) telcos will still happily sell dry copper circuits even today. Prior to that, my connectivity used the very same dry copper setup for two years, until I moved from Maryland to Florida five years ago. My employer at the time (which had about 80Mbps of external bandwidth) was right next door to the telco C.O., and both were about two blocks from me. I had 2.5Mbps bidirectional, and it was rock solid...that was verrah nice. Though I was the closest, about a dozen other people in town had a similar setup; their speeds ranged from about 2Mbps down to about 512Kbps. In my case, it was "instead of a T1", not "instead of ISDN", as I'd sooner exercise the bandwidth of a station wagon full of magtapes before actually depending on ISDN for anything serious. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 05:57:24 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:57:24 -0400 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <2EB47F9A-2490-4461-B940-EB5B71638615@neurotica.com> On Mar 26, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I spent the weekend obsessing over what the fastest editor I could > find for a 4.77MHz 8088, DOS, CGA platform. The results, if anyone > is interested, are here: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/texteditors > > No doubt I will get some scorn for knocking Brief and other > venerable editors, but the truth is I have very specific needs: 1. > Instant screen response to user input, and 2. a functional undo. > That's it, really, and I was surprised how many text editors did > not fit the bill. Undo functionality was probably a major sticking point. I don't remember many editors from those days having undo. When I was developing DOS software at work (16MHz 80286 systems were current) I used Xywrite as a programming editor until I switched to Turbo Pascal (using just the editor, not the compiler, as I wasn't writing in Pascal). Turbo Pascal's editor is very fast and compact. My whole office (small company, four programmers) wound up using it. I later found Freemacs, an odd but very nice emacs-like editor for DOS. I still use it to this day under QEMU (a CPU emulator) to write PALASM code. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 06:02:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:02:15 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <200703252343.TAA01586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> <46063C14.7977.2B7CBB6B@cclist.sydex.com> <200703252343.TAA01586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <CEFF6987-69E7-40C6-9E4C-54B615A45D84@neurotica.com> On Mar 25, 2007, at 7:40 PM, der Mouse wrote: >> You can't do 56K over a strictly analog phone line-- > > Um, POTS phone lines *are* strictly analog, from the modem to the CO. Not necessarily. Here, for example, it's analog from my house to the SLC-96 in the CEV vault up the street. From there to the C.O. it's digital. This is very, very common. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 26 07:48:03 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:48:03 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:50:19 EDT." <5A27A2B4-E9CA-45AF-AD94-19C8EF7208D3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200703261248.l2QCm3OY007456@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >two blocks from me. I had 2.5Mbps bidirectional, and it was rock >solid...that was verrah nice. mind if I ask what boxes you used? the cheapo sdsl boxes I have top out at 1.1mb but the line is very clean and I'm sure it can do more... -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 07:58:32 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:58:32 -0400 Subject: CTX Panoview 630 power supply pinout? In-Reply-To: <C652C5A362C1B74EB0C9E380C788FF2E2679C9@dfm2kexc01.uk.emea.slr.com> References: <C652C5A362C1B74EB0C9E380C788FF2E2679C9@dfm2kexc01.uk.emea.slr.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703260558u2679e7dcx5033926a6b1f4bc9@mail.gmail.com> On 3/26/07, Allan, Ray <RAY_ALLAN at solectron.co.uk> wrote: > Hi Ethan, > > did you manage to find the power supply info you requested for the Panoview > 630, as I have just aquired one but without the power supply. I did, but don't have my notes in front of me. I ended up tearing the monitor apart and reverse-engineering 90% of the schematic for the small PCB that had the video connection, power jack, etc., and that attaches to the main part of the innards via a 40-pin (2x20) header. I have cobbled up a temporary power cable by soldering 3 wires (+12, +5, and GND) onto that PCB at the 40-pin connector. and, except for portability, it works great. I don't have any male mini-DIN-6 connectors, or I'd just make a proper power cable. I'm not enthusastic about recycling an old PS/2 keyboard/mouse extension cable because I don't think those tiny wires would enjoy a couple of amps of DC flowing over them. Keyboards and mice use a lot less power than an LCD display, so lacking any hard evidence as to minimum required wire gauge, I've held back a bit on whipping something up. I've verified that both of my panels work; now I just need a safe, reliable way to power them. I'll check my notes tonight and get you a pinout. Cheers, -ethan From kth at srv.net Mon Mar 26 10:37:09 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:37:09 -0600 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <4606D71E.3643.2DDA57A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl>, <001801c76f4e$c3aa7950$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4606D71E.3643.2DDA57A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4607E8A5.1050804@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Mar 2007 at 21:30, Jay West wrote: > > >> One end MUST be a digital connection. For 56K, >> on the ISP end, the line must be ISDN, PRI, etc. Regular analog POTS line >> won't work on the ISP end. In ADDITION, there can't be more than one analog >> to digital transition anywhere in the circuit from source to destination. >> Bridge clips will also invalidate 56K connections on POTS lines. >> > > Apropos to the vintage aspect... > > Telcos used to (maybe prior to 1990) offer copper-to-copper > connections for things like fire and burglar alarms. Some > enterprising souls were making a go of using these connections > instead of ISDN (probably over a short haul, it might work). I was > surprised at how quickly all of the RBOCs got rid of the all-copper > arrangement. > A company I used to work for had numerous direct-wire connections of this sort. You could get either 2-wire or 4-wire (2-pair) connections. We always used the 4-wire (2-pair) option. You could then attach a "short haul modem" on each end to get a serial line that would work up to 9600 baud, depending on the distance. One of the biggest problem we had, was the phone company inserting "transformers" in the leased lines. They would do this on their own initiative. This would cause the modems to quit working. After getting them to remove the transformers, we would have to re-determine the pairs. From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 26 11:44:43 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:44:43 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:02:15 EDT." <CEFF6987-69E7-40C6-9E4C-54B615A45D84@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200703261644.l2QGihVi021465@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >On Mar 25, 2007, at 7:40 PM, der Mouse wrote: >>> You can't do 56K over a strictly analog phone line-- >> >> Um, POTS phone lines *are* strictly analog, from the modem to the CO. > > Not necessarily. Here, for example, it's analog from my house to >the SLC-96 in the CEV vault up the street. From there to the C.O. >it's digital. This is very, very common. if there's a SLIC in place, what happens if you ask for an alarm circuit (i.e. "dry copper")? I've always wondered... -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 26 12:53:00 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:53:00 -0700 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4608087C.4070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > I spent the weekend obsessing over what the fastest editor I could find > for a 4.77MHz 8088, DOS, CGA platform. The results, if anyone is > interested, are here: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/texteditors > > No doubt I will get some scorn for knocking Brief and other venerable > editors, but the truth is I have very specific needs: 1. Instant screen > response to user input, and 2. a functional undo. That's it, really, > and I was surprised how many text editors did not fit the bill. One other factor you have forget, many small text editors could only do 64K sized text files. Terse for example comes to mind. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 26 12:37:28 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:37:28 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4608087C.4070608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <4608087C.4070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <460804D8.4030401@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > One other factor you have forget, many small text editors could > only do 64K sized text files. Terse for example comes to mind. Ack, I hadn't realized that. I will update the page with that information. I've also received several suggestions for stuff I missed (XyWrite, TM.COM, others so no doubt the page will remain a work in progress :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 26 12:38:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:38:01 -0700 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4607A289.8724.60357A@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Mar 2007 at 1:04, Jim Leonard wrote: > No doubt I will get some scorn for knocking Brief and other venerable > editors, but the truth is I have very specific needs: 1. Instant screen > response to user input, and 2. a functional undo. That's it, really, > and I was surprised how many text editors did not fit the bill. In defense of VEDIT (which I don't use), it should be noted that there are older versions that will work quite well on 8088 systems. AFAIK, it's the only one in the list that was ported to the IBM Displaywriter. If you're interested in others, I can dig around a bit and perhaps find a couple you missed. My own editor that I've used for over 25 years, is like TERSE, small and originally hosted on an 8080 CP/M. It's 11K, but has things such as shell out, capture output, variable indent and shortcut language- element keys (e.g., type Alt-M and you get a complete "int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { };" sequence). One of these days, I'm going to add long filename support. Every once in awhile, I try someone else's but I always return to my own. They'll probably bury a copy of it with my mortal remains. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 26 12:44:08 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:44:08 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <2EB47F9A-2490-4461-B940-EB5B71638615@neurotica.com> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <2EB47F9A-2490-4461-B940-EB5B71638615@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > Undo functionality was probably a major sticking point. I don't > remember many editors from those days having undo. Ironically, it was speed that was a major sticking point. There were about three editors out of everything I tested with the screen/input response to satisfy me. I'm not talking about things that take actual time, like search/replace etc., but regular things like scrolling or pageup/down. I understand some of these have legacy terminal roots, but 80x25 is only 4000 bytes of memory, it shouldn't be rocket science to update it in a timely fashion... unless your text is represented internally significantly more complex than structures of strings I suppose. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spc at conman.org Mon Mar 26 13:18:08 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:18:08 -0400 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070326181808.GA23565@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jim Leonard once stated: > I spent the weekend obsessing over what the fastest editor I could find > for a 4.77MHz 8088, DOS, CGA platform. The results, if anyone is > interested, are here: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/texteditors > > No doubt I will get some scorn for knocking Brief and other venerable > editors, but the truth is I have very specific needs: 1. Instant screen > response to user input, and 2. a functional undo. That's it, really, > and I was surprised how many text editors did not fit the bill. One editor I didn't see listed was PE, by IBM. It had #1, I'm not sure about #2 though, but at 40k I wasn't going to complain (nor did I really miss undo, although I never expected undo to begin with). It could also edit files upto the available free memory in the system (I tried once on an old MS-DOS based laptop---a document about 400k in size; it was doable, but it took quite some time to load). -spc (could edit multiple files, true block copy, and somewhat programmable. I used verion 1.0 for *years* and only found one (maybe two [2]) bug(s) [1]) [1] Lines *had* to end with CRLF, otherwise wierd things would happen. [2] The longest line could only be 255 characters in length (which is why this is maybe a bug). Longer lines would be truncated, but it would say it was truncating. From sdc695 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 26 13:20:04 2007 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modems and Baud and Bits, Oh My... Message-ID: <336951.90669.qm@web60812.mail.yahoo.com> Several people have been talking about modems and the like, and even acoustic couplers. Here are some points: The 103 Modem frequencies are: 1070/1270 and 2025/2225 ('mark' is the higher frequency). One group is used in each direction. As I remember it the high group was used as transmit on the answer side, as the "answer tone" (one of the high frequencies) was one that tripped the echo suppressors to "off" so they wouldn't interfere with the transmission of the data. The 103 modem has a 200 Hz shift (difference between mark and space) and doesn't like much above twice the shift frequency in data rate (that is why things changed after 300 bps). Some people were lucky (real lucky if you ask me) to get 450 bps out of the thing. Acoustic couplers go WAY back. In the 60's (some might think this is ancient history) it wasn't good to attach things directly to the phone line (people did it any way, but I digress). So, many schemes were used to couple things to the phone line. One of the most successful vendors was Anderson Jacobson. Tymshare (yeah, the guys with the SDS 940's) also developed a coupler. Their original one used magnetic coupling for the receive side as is was less prone to noise. Since you had the coupler near the ASR-33 you can imagine the noise. Magnetic coupling is still used in "hearing aid compatible" telephones (you will see it on pay phones with blue strain reliefs on the handset cord). At higher speeds several standards abounded. Bell "202" modems used a single FSK carrier with a wide shift to accommodate 1200 bps in ONE direction. The standard (Bell Standard) provided for a 5 bps back channel (so you could tell the other guy to "turn the line around"). Others expanded on the back channel to make it an FSK pair (around 300 Hz as I remember) that would about 150 bps. If you were using a CRT terminal, this was OK since you could hardly type that fast, and having the (big computer like pdp-10, or others) respond back at 1200 bps seemed like lightening fast. The next standard (The phone company was allowing direct connections by then) was 1200 full duplex. The first one was Vadic 3400, followed by Bell 212. While similar, they had opposite answer/originate pairs and were not compatible. These modems took in the 1200 async data and converted it to a synchronous stream that was sent over the carrier. What was nice is that if you used the modem and connected to a "low speed" (Bell 103 type) modem, it used those frequencies (like a second modem). Later developments raised the speed up to 33k bps full duplex using lots of computing power in the modem (which got cheaper to do). with various "V.xxx" standards. All of this finished up with 56k modems which was the limit for a DS0 channel (8 bits, less one for signalling and 8k samples per second). Just remember, programming on an ASR33 is a VERY humbling experience. Everyone should try it for one project just to get it. Unfortunately, comments get sacrificed but you do make up for it in the scribbles on the real paper. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 26 20:41:47 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:41:47 -0500 Subject: stuff arrived, some available Message-ID: <000301c77011$15d53e00$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The stuff below just arrived today. The items marked with "*" I am keeping, the rest is available if anyone wants them. * Unopened box syncom platinum soft sector 8" diskettes (10) "Box" style binder "MicroPDP-11 Hardware Information" (2 manuals, Owners manual and Technical manual). Appears to be for BA123 type systems. * BA11-K mounting box users manual * DZ11 asynchronous multiplexor technical manual * Microsystems CP/M Programmers (quick) reference guide * TRS-80 Computer Reference Handbook (basic & command ref. for I, II, II, 4, 100, MC-10 and coco) RT-11 pocket guide * RSX11-M mini reference RT11 mini reference manual PDP11 processor handbook (pdp11 04/24/34a/44/70 1981) IMS International Ultima Series video display terminal user manual (2 copies) IMS International Ultima Series ultima II video display terminal user manual Digital Research Inc. CP/M "R" 2.2 Update (setup disk, and disk's 1,2,3 {5.25, soft sector}) A box containing a large number of DEC ribbon cables, most of which I don't know what they are for. There is one BC11A-10 that I will probably keep. If anyone wants the items not marked "*", let me know. Total cost (including shipping) is 1.25 times actual shipping costs. Jay West From W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de Mon Mar 26 15:10:29 2007 From: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:10:29 +0200 Subject: 2.11BSD source code browser and xref Message-ID: <460828B5.70605@gsi.de> When searching lately a lot through the UNIX 2.11bsd source code I wanted many times a hyperlinked and cross referenced rendition of the sources, much like doxygen or lxr does it. For kernel, lib and user code, for c and assembler. Since none of the existing tools seemed to do what I wanted, I wrote a perl script generating such a html'ized version of the source code. The tool far from finished, but might already be useful. For a tour start for example with the code of the 'cp' command http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/bin/cp.c.html and click along. The links connect C and asm code, the user land code, libc and kernel code. Look to the readdir() call in line 197, a click gets you into the libc module implementing readdir(). A further click on read() into the assembler stub doing the system call, and a click on the kernel handler listed there gets you into the kernel source. Here the links of the tour http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/bin/cp.c.html#n:197 http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/lib/libc/gen/readdir.c.html#s:_readdir http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/lib/libc/pdp/sys/__read.s.html#s:_read http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/sys/sys/sys_generic.c.html#s:_read The background color tells you in which territory you are in magenta boot and standalone code red kernel orange network code (running in supervisor) green libraries blue user level code If you want a kernel tour, start at http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/sys/sys/init_main.c.html Clicking on a symbol definition (or the X in the sidebar) gets you to the cross referencing info's. To see for example who is using setjmp see http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/lib/libc/pdp/gen/setjmp.s.html#xref:s:_setjmp or who is including nlist.h see http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/include/nlist.h.html#xref:i:nlist.h As said, it's beta stage, the style sheet is still the debug version, not all links end where they should, not all is parsed as it should. Hope you enjoy it. Comments, suggestion ect are very welcome. With best regards, Walter -- Dr. Walter F.J. M?ller Mail: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de GSI, Abteilung KP3 Phone: +49-6159-71-2766 D-64291 Darmstadt FAX: +49-6159-71-3762 URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/ From spc at conman.org Mon Mar 26 15:12:00 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:12:00 -0400 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4607A289.8724.60357A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <4607A289.8724.60357A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070326201200.GD23565@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > My own editor that I've used for over 25 years, is like TERSE, small > and originally hosted on an 8080 CP/M. It's 11K, but has things such > as shell out, capture output, variable indent and shortcut language- > element keys (e.g., type Alt-M and you get a complete "int main(int > argc, char *argv[]) { };" sequence). One of these days, I'm going > to add long filename support. Every once in awhile, I try someone > else's but I always return to my own. They'll probably bury a copy > of it with my mortal remains. Is the source code available to those that ask? -spc (Very interested ... ) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 15:14:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:14:16 -0400 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <2EB47F9A-2490-4461-B940-EB5B71638615@neurotica.com> <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> On Mar 26, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Undo functionality was probably a major sticking point. I don't >> remember many editors from those days having undo. > > Ironically, it was speed that was a major sticking point. There > were about three editors out of everything I tested with the screen/ > input response to satisfy me. I'm not talking about things that > take actual time, like search/replace etc., but regular things like > scrolling or pageup/down. I understand some of these have legacy > terminal roots, but 80x25 is only 4000 bytes of memory, it > shouldn't be rocket science to update it in a timely fashion... > unless your text is represented internally significantly more > complex than structures of strings I suppose. For early PC editors, having to go through the BIOS is the big display update bottleneck. Some programs achieved very fast screen updates by writing directly to the display memory. The venerable list.com comes to mind. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 26 15:30:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:30:06 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <20070326181808.GA23565@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <20070326181808.GA23565@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <46082D4E.7000307@oldskool.org> Sean Conner wrote: > One editor I didn't see listed was PE, by IBM. It had #1, I'm not sure Ironically I couldn't find a copy of Personal Editor -- I found clones of it for 32-bit platforms but not the original or the later DOS 2.0 rewrite (added path support). If you have it and can send it to me, I'd be happy to eval it and comment about it in the article... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 26 15:30:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:30:15 -0500 Subject: Computer Automation collection. In-Reply-To: <17926.29594.827618.56677@localhost.localdomain> References: <17926.29594.827618.56677@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46082D57.2050900@yahoo.co.uk> Lars Hamren wrote: > With a little luck, a lot of e-mails and phone calls, and a lot of > help from other people, some of whom are active on this list (thank > you!), I have been able to collect more than I initially hoped for, > but a lot is of course still missing. > > There is a web site dedicated to the project at > > http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/ > > It details parts of the collection. Hi there, I can't offer any info I'm afraid, but we do have an Alpha-16 CPU in reasonably good cosmetic condition: http://www.patooie.com/temp/Computer_Automation_Alpha_16_CPU_sm.jpg ... I've not seen any documentation, software, peripherals, or even a suitable PSU / wiring harness floating around for it at the museum, though - and sadly nobody seems to have any clue where it actually came from. :-( Going from another photo that I took of the rear of the crate, this looks to be a 5-slot cage which is populated with four boards - one's definitely memory, one looks to be I/O of some kind, and of the remaining two, one at least has to be CPU. I've only just got back from the US and haven't been over to the museum yet - but if the system hasn't been returned to deep storage (i.e. it's still reasonably accessible) then I'd be happy to take some board photos if you wanted. cheers Jules From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 26 16:33:13 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:33:13 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4607A289.8724.60357A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200703262037.l2QKbrin020114@mail2.magma.ca> > My own editor that I've used for over 25 years, is like TERSE, small > and originally hosted on an 8080 CP/M. It's 11K, but has things such > as shell out, capture output, variable indent and shortcut language- > element keys (e.g., type Alt-M and you get a complete "int main(int > argc, char *argv[]) { };" sequence). One of these days, I'm going > to add long filename support. Every once in awhile, I try someone > else's but I always return to my own. They'll probably bury a copy > of it with my mortal remains. I'm the same way - my editor started back in my Altair days (in 8080 assembly language), then got ported to 6809 assembly for my 6809 system, and finally ended up in C, where it routinely gets recompiled for whatever system I happen to be wanting to use. It's small, simple, powerful enough for my purposes and most importantly - it's the same no matter what platform I'm using - I've also tried other,more fancy/ powerful tools - but I too always come back home. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 26 15:44:54 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:44:54 -0500 Subject: Mostek MK3881 PIO controller manual Message-ID: <460830C6.3050009@yahoo.co.uk> Does anyone know if the above is identical in spec to the "official" Zilog PIO chip? The manual's dated November 1976 and stamped as preliminary, which is a little unsettling :) I want to do some messing around with a Z80 CPU and PIO, and having a physical paper reference to hand would sure be useful - I'm just not sure if I'm going to shoot myself in the foot using this particular one! I should go and google for Zilog / Z80 history I suppose to see where Mostek fit into things - I've got a rather thick Mostek UK Z80 programming manual (V2.0) too which would also make a useful reference, assuming it's sound for all Z80 chips regardless of source... cheers Jules From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Mar 26 15:50:33 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:50:33 -0400 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <5A27A2B4-E9CA-45AF-AD94-19C8EF7208D3@neurotica.com> References: <4606D71E.3643.2DDA57A1@cclist.sydex.com> <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> <001801c76f4e$c3aa7950$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4606D71E.3643.2DDA57A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070326163511.012bd1e8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave McGuire may have mentioned these words: > In my case, it was "instead of a T1", not "instead of ISDN", as >I'd sooner exercise the bandwidth of a station wagon full of magtapes >before actually depending on ISDN for anything serious. Define "serious." When I last moved (5 years ago), I went from a place that then (and now) had at best 48K modem connections; usually worse, and nothing faster... and I was paying over $80/mo. for two phone lines. The wife had an in-home daycare, and I couldn't fight her job for line rights to do my job. ISDN was available at the new place (and was the fastest available at the time) and just having a line that _always_ gave me 64K up & down (and could pair them for 128K as necessary) made multiple Telnet/SSH sessions a breeze... (and Diablo II was quite happy as well)... at $62/month. Gosh, pay less, go faster, rock stable. No brainer! ;-) Then for a little while, I had a 1 Mbps bidirectional wireless, the upload speed was nice, but it's ping/response times could get slower than my ISDN, and for SSH it actually wasn't as nice... but the price was right... free. ;-) My now current (overpriced) connection [[required by my now current employer]] which is 3Mbps Charter line plays WoW allright I guess, but the upload speed sucks, as I do a lot of uploading for work. I still have the ISDN (but right now it's just a phone line, as I don't think anyone supports it in my town any longer :-( ) and if I had to go back to it, I wouldn't have a problem in the slightest. It was dependable to the extreme, albeit slow(ish) by today's standards (read: YouTube). Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Mar 26 17:01:41 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 00:01:41 +0200 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <000a01c76ea4$33406aa0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <000a01c76ea4$33406aa0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <20070327000141.4491a079@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:09:51 -0500 "Dan Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote: > Form factor 168pin dimm, 5v, FPM. The machine has two banks, each > requires 4 dimms per bank. I have not been able to find any of these > dimms. Hmmm. IIRC some PowerMacs used that type of memory too, as well as the Sun SPARCstation 4/5. In contrast: 3.3 V EDO DIMMs are quite common. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From g at kurico.com Mon Mar 26 17:28:40 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:28:40 -0600 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46084918.6070705@kurico.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > I spent the weekend obsessing over what the fastest editor I could > find for a 4.77MHz 8088, DOS, CGA platform. The results, if anyone is > interested, are here: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/texteditors > > No doubt I will get some scorn for knocking Brief and other venerable > editors, but the truth is I have very specific needs: 1. Instant > screen response to user input, and 2. a functional undo. That's it, > really, and I was surprised how many text editors did not fit the bill. Well, I'm surprised you haven't just rolled your own ;) Simple editors are not very difficult to write, I'm sure you can find various libraries/routines to do most of the grunt work for you and you could be the first person in 15 years to roll a new DOS text editor :) On a more serious note, have you checked out the Borland Editor Toolbox? IIRC it let you roll an editor similar in features to their Pascal 3.0 environment (which was a decent editor for it's time, though I think you lost your undo buffer after a save, or was that the early versions of Brief). You could customize as needed. George From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 26 20:36:58 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:36:58 -0800 Subject: OT: Paxton Hoag on TV Message-ID: <p0624086ec22e203a5156@[192.168.1.199]> I was rather surprised to see Paxton on the news this last weekend. He was in a spot on one of the local stations as a local historian talking about a landslide that they're having problems with in his part of the state. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Mar 26 21:20:01 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:20:01 -0700 Subject: OS/400 V3R2 License Keys for hobbyist use Message-ID: <0a52b97eb619c6944941405345cb7d21@valleyimplants.com> Doc wrote > IBM's idea of a hobbyist license is $15,000 a shot. Just out of curiosity, how does one generally learn these business systems? For MVS we have Hercules, for VMS there's the hobbyist program (and either cheap VAXen/Alphas or emulators), but for MPE/iX and i5/OS-OS/400 there's nothing. Is it similar to accordion repair where 2 schools turn out our entire national supply? Or do businesses keep a couple of old machines in the back for people to learn on? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Mar 26 22:02:08 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:02:08 -0500 Subject: PDP11 NSC RAM questions In-Reply-To: <4604A2E1.3040501@hawkmountain.net> References: <4604A2E1.3040501@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <46088930.90508@compsys.to> >Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I've purchased a memory board for PDP11. > It appears to be a National Semiconductor Q-BUS memory card. > It has 980110014-001 on it. I find (currently) no markings saying > like NS23D, NS23M, NS23S, NS23E, etc.... > It is populated with MMC3764N-15 chips. There are 144 chips > total. > I'm still a newbie on 11s... but, if my internet searches are correct > those chips are 64k x 1 ram modules. So it takes 8 of them to make > 64 kilobytes. Assuming there is parity, 144/9 make 16 sets of 9 > chips each with 64 kilobytes + 1 parity bit per byte (9th chip). > This math makes it out to me a 1MB module. > Can anyone confirm that is what it is ? I bought it as a 4MB module. Jerome Fine replies: Assuming that your internet search and math are correct, you do have a 1 MByte memory board. I don't have the time at the moment to check it out, but I tend to believe you are correct since I have never run across a 4 MByte memory board from National Semiconductor. > Also, I believe this came out of an 11/73. Will this work in an 11/83, > and if so, does it operate as PMI memory ? > Thanks in advance from all you PDP11 gurus out there. YES!! It will work in a PDP-11/83, BUT as only ordinary memory, NOT as PMI memory. With your memory board, the CPU is in the first slot and the memory is usually in the next slot(s), but the latter is NOT a requirement. You are correct that a PDP-11/83 will allow PMI memory. However, ALL KDJ11-Bx boards are able to use PMI memory since the CPU module is what activates PMI memory provided the PMI memory board is placed in the FIRST memory slot(s) and FOLLOWED by the KDJ11-Bx module. IN ADDITION, ALL of the slots which hold the memory and CPU MUST be ABCD slots. In a BA23, the first 3 slots are ABCD followed by 5 ABAB slots. In a BA123, the first 4 slots are ABCD followed by 8 ABAB slots. In BOTH the BA23 and the BA123, the ABAB slots are serpentine with regard to the bus grant. Ask if you have a question! > And... if this isn't PMI memory, and if is only a 1MB board, would > anyone want to take in in trade towards a M8637-EF (MSV11-JE) > to go along with the existing MSV11-JE I have. I will keep you in mind if I ever dispose of my PMI memory. Any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Mar 26 22:03:36 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:03:36 -0500 Subject: List very slow? In-Reply-To: <008701c76cf2$dc01cf20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200703221704.l2MH4ojj024032@onyx.spiritone.com> <008701c76cf2$dc01cf20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <46088988.7040903@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > >Zane wrote... > >> Is there a reason the list is so slow right now? It's taking an hour or >> better for messages to show up. >> >> This was sent at 10:04am Pacific. > > Yup, it's running so slow because a fair number of people on the list > couldn't act like adults and I am now having to manually moderate > every single post. > > I have a day job... so posts when get through when I decide to sit > down and go through them all. Soon as I get the impression that people > can get along and play well, I'll put the list back in to normal mode. > > In the interim, expect posts to take a day. > > Grumpy Old Jay Jerome Fine replies: I have been mostly lurking for a while - busy with my family. In addition, I usually download at most twice a week, usually only once a week. So I guess I don't even get into the arguments. JAY!! THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOU EFFORTS IN HOSTING!!! YOU ARE ENTITLED TO RUN THINGS EXACTLY AS YOU ARE!!! PERSONALLY, I WOULD HAVE CUT THINGS OFF MUCH SOONER!!! A suggestion. Perhaps when any thread starts to go off-topic and strong feelings are being expressed, the "inmates" might think for a few extra minutes before sending a reply. Specifically, when the total number of off-topic posts for any given tread (or any of its children however disguised) exceeds a threshold such as 20 (personally I would use 10) posts, then a delay of one day should substantially reduce any unreasonable responses. In addition, each person should then be limited to a maximum of TWO additional posts to that thread!!!!!!!!!! ANY person who exceeds these "voluntary" guidelines would be liable: (a) Placed on the "REQUIRED TO BE MODERATED" list for one month, or (b) Banned from the list for one month, whichever Jay decides depending on how Grumpy Old Jay feels. On other suggestion might be to limit the total number of posts to 50 a day with any extra being delayed to be sent the following day and be part of the total for the following day. I notice that this is probably the present limit for Jay in any case which is probably a good result since perhaps posts which pertain to my last point will be avoided so that more important posts will make it to the plate. FINALLY, WHILE I AGREE THAT IT TAKES ME ONLY A FEW SECONDS TO DELETE A HUMOROUS 5 WORD REPLY, I REALLY SEE NO POINT!!! Perhaps the "inmates" might consider that it is only adding a lot of chaff to the mix to toss off a quick reply that adds nothing to a topic that is really off-topic in the first place. And I suggest that everyone limit themselves to ONE response to my suggestions. I personally will not reply since I probably will not download for another week in any case. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Mar 26 22:04:06 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:04:06 -0500 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <460889A6.7010806@compsys.to> >David Betz wrote: > I'm starting to collect some qbus equipment again and am trying to > setup a system around a KDJ11-AA CPU. > My current configuration is: > BA23 enclosure > KDJ11-AA (m8192) > MSV11-QC (m7551 cf) > DZQ11-M (m3106) > RQDX3 (m7555) > TQK50-AA (m7546) > First, will it be possible to boot this configuration? Can I setup to > start the KDJ11 in ODT mode and enter a bootstrap for the RQDX3 by > hand? How long a program would I have to enter? Jerome Fine replies: Sorry for the long delay - I rarely download e-mail more than once a week. If you are actually physically able to enter a program (under ODT) by hand typing, it probably takes a few minutes. If you are booting more than once a day, this becomes very tedious. HOWEVER, your present configuration can't, as far as I can remember about the DZQ11-M board, transmit to and receive from the ODT program on board a KDJ11-Ax board (M8192-Ax). As far as I can remember, ODT assumes that the hardware SLU is at CSR = 177560 (and maybe a VECTOR = 60 although that might not be used and is not needed) which are the values used by the PDP-11/73 console SLU with a DL interface. Normally, a KDJ11-Ax board uses a DLV11-J with one port configured as the console at CSR = 177560 / VECTOR = 60. And while there are a few other alternatives that have been discussed (like the MXV11 which has 2 SLU and memory as well as ROM options), the DLV11-J is likely the best solution. > Also, I've done a Google search but have been unable to find > documentation on how to configure the DZQ11 module. I'd like to > configure it so that I can use one of its ports as the console port > for ODT. Is that possible? The short answer is NO!!!! Especially for so-called hardware ODT with a KDJ11-Ax board. Under RT-11, the standard distributed console interface is also a DL at CSR = 177560 / VECTOR = 60. If a program is linked with the software ODT program version, that same console will be used as is currently in effect within the operating system IF that version of ODT is chosen by the user linking the program. Other debugging programs, including some versions of ODT, allow the standard DL at CSR = 177560 / VECTOR = 60 to be used instead in either a software or hardware mode. However, it is entirely possible to use your DZQ11-M board as the console under RT-11 after RT-11 has been booted if the RT-11 version of the operating system includes multi-terminal support - a SYSGEN MUST be performed. If I remember correctly, a few extra things MUST also be done to prevent any interaction with a DL device during the boot process AND the command file which is automatically executed at boot must contain the command to: SET TT CONSOL=n where n is not zero, i.e. the console is switched via software to be one of the DZQ11-M ports. > I'm planning on using a Maxtor XT-2190 190mb hard drive. If that > won't work, I have a number of RD53 drives I can use instead. If you can't use the RD54 (XT-2190), then I strongly suggest that you NEVER use the RD53 except for scratch storage - if you are even able to do so at any given session. Most of the RD53 drives that I ever used not longer function and the few that I still have (that might be still working) are not used any more in any case. If you can find an RD52 or even an RD51, they are also useful. Since I think that you have the Sigma ESDI controller, an ESDI hard drive is usually quite reasonable these days if you can find one. While a SCSI host adapter is probably still expensive, small 50 pin SCSI drives (up to 500 MegaBytes) are probably still available. RT-11 can be very useful with drives as small as 10 MegaBytes although I can't seem to remember a SCSI drive ever being that small. Depending on the version of RT-11, a drive of 8 GigaBytes can be used (Tim Shoppa once bragged about his 9 GigaByte drive under RT-11 although how he kept track of what was there I really don't know!!). The standard distribution of RT-11 can easily use a drive of up to 256 MegaBytes. Drives which are larger that what can be usefully used will still perform very well with the portion that is used. The biggest problem will be to transfer the files to the hard drive. If you are only running the PDP-11/73 to say that it can be done, then you might prepare an RX50 floppy on a PC using an emulator and then use the RQDX3 with an RX50 drive on the PDP-11/73. If you want any speed on the actual PDP-11/73, then a hard drive is necessary as well as to provide space for disk files if you want to write any programs. On the other hand, if you are running the PDP-11/73 to have fun with the operating system and to write programs on a PDP-11/73, then using an emulator such as SIMH is far easier. In addition, if you are using an older version of a PDP-11 operating system such as V05.03 or older of RT-11, it is also entirely allowed by Mentec at this point as far as I understand even though the actual hobby license was for use with an emulator from DEC. SIMH is the current version of the original emulator that was originally licensed by Mentec to be used as the DEC emulator for PDP-11 operating systems for specified old versions of RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11. If you already have a license to run any of the current PDP-11 operating systems, then you can also legally use either the hobby version of E11 or a commercial E11 version on current PC hardware. Mentec will also sell you a license to di this as well. > Is this a workable configuration or do I need a boot module like the > MXV11? The Sigma RQD11-EC ESDI controller can provide the boot ROM and the DLV11-J can be used to provide the DL type SLU if you are using a standard distributed DEC operating system. As stated above, if you perform a SYSGEN om RT-11 and produce a version with multi-terminal support for the DZQ11-M, then you can (after you transfer the operating system to a file on the boot media and make sure you don't require the DL SLU during the initial boot process) boot into what seems like you only require the DZQ11-M module. If you still don't have a DL SLU, I can help you do this. Also, I think there was a question about booting from a READ ONLY media. RT-11 does NOT require any write operations during the boot process and is very happy to execute from a READ ONLY disk drive. About the only additional command that you may want to perform is to: SET EXIT NOSWAP as you may get an error message from RT-11 when memory is tight. In addition, the DEC version of SL: will not begin, but that is probably not a problem for most people. Of course, you can't save any files if you don't have a media to WRITE to, but I don't think that was the question. For myself, I almost ALWAYS have the system disk in READ ONLY mode unless I specifically want to write to the hard drive since I am usually making changes to and debugging the operating system. Since I often find that I have a number of bugs in the operating system, I feel MUCH safer when the hard drive is READ ONLY and I write to the hard drive ONLY when I have s specific file I want to save. If is quite easy with the Sigma RQD11-EC with a passive panel or with most of the SCSI host adapters. With the emulators, it is a simple command. Any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Mar 26 22:05:05 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:05:05 -0500 Subject: John Backus passes away... In-Reply-To: <20070323170953.K79184@shell.lmi.net> References: <Your message of "Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:37:10 CDT." <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> >, <200703221507.l2MF7dZM004370@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4602D431.5672.1E2EF604@cclist.sydex.com> <20070323170953.K79184@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <460889E1.8070408@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>Hey, it was barely FORTRAN, but it was FORTRAN! >> >I have fond memories of the good old days, with PDQ FORTRAN >It made you appreciate FORTRAN IV. (and WATFOR!) >But then Fortran 77 just didn't feel like a real FORTRAN. > Jerome Fine replies: I don't have the time to compare FORTRAN IV and FORTRAN 77, but I seem to have the feeling that I can use code in FORTRAN 77 that is completely acceptable in FORTRAN IV. Maybe not every program can be compatible (especially DOUBLE PRECISION and COMPLEX), but a simple demo program should probably be identical. What I am saying is that if you don't use the extra features of FORTRAN 77, then it will probably still feel like a real FORTRAN. But then of course, why bother. Now I understand that FORTRAN 90 is very different, but that seems completely off-topic - well maybe not - when was FORTRAN 90 released? In any case I am NOT attempting to contradict your feeling, just suggesting that if you are going to use the newer features in FORTRAN 77 (such as 32 bit INTEGER *4), then obviously it will not feel link the original. Personally, since I have a strong requirement for both INTEGER *8 and INTEGER *16 along with much more memory, I am probably going to give serious attention to shifting to current hardware - UNLESS I am able to integrate E11 and a DLL called EMEM32.DLL which will provide that access. If that works, I will be able to use what seems like a separate CPU to access up to 2 GigaBytes of memory and the assembly language instructions for short subroutines which I want to implement to frequently execute certain short loops many, many times (often trillions of times) without having the overhead of re-entering the DLL for each separate execution of the loop. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Mar 26 22:06:09 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:06:09 -0500 Subject: Unsupported Software In-Reply-To: <45FFC030.17011.1228D60E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C49B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <46001A84.4090309@yahoo.co.uk> <45FFC030.17011.1228D60E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46088A20.40105@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 20 Mar 2007 at 12:31, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >>Copyright law's murky at best and varies wildly from country to country. It's >>another reason I'd aim for a distributed archive as even if one particular >>corner's hit by copyright problems it *shouldn't* take out the entire archive >>(with all the content that *is* OK to distribute). >> >As an author writing code in a given country, it would be my >expectation that said code (or documentation) would be protected with >the laws of that country. > Jerome Fine replies: [Jay, if you feel that these software questions are too off-topic, kill the post.] As an author, perhaps you can answer the following question in respect of IP? Suppose that you have sold a license for a specific software program which has some bugs and you offer a warranty. Do you feel that you have any obligation to fix the bugs or is it easier to just allow the user to return the software and license and refund the license fees? What about after the warranty period has expired? Do you rely on the letter of the law and refuse to either refund or fix the software program? Also, what do you think about a company who knows about the software bugs and continues to sell the software program even though that company is able to obtain free support from hobby users to fix the bugs, i.e. in return for allowing a hobby user to use the software program without payment, the bugs will be fixed without charge? Note that these questions are specifically with regard to a specific legacy software program that was released in 1985, although there is a more recent version that is now a bit less than 10 years old. However, even those current bugs in that software program are mostly (probably all) from a previous version that was released 1992 which means that they are at least 15 years old and one of the worst bugs was already present in the version released in 1980. However, since the last released version probably functions extremely well over 99% of the time, it seems to me that another version is, at present, highly unlikely. I am not sure if the best description is unsupported or abandoned. Certainly I agree that the lack of support is probably reasonable considering that the company in question probably does not have the expertise to fix the software program nor is the current revenue from the sales sufficient to support any staff. But since it is possible to obtain free support from hobby users who still enjoy using the software program, I don't understand why the company continues to refuse what seems like a win / win situation? I think that I should distinguish between: (a) Software programs which are pure entertainment - i.e. mostly games - which can't cause any harm to anyone other than perhaps the frustration of a game which has problems or does not work correctly for which any software bugs can, in most cases, be actually considered to be a feature of the game (b) Software programs (including and especially operating systems) which can and not infrequently cause serious problems during operation to both the users of the software programs and to the individuals and companies who are being served by the users Since any problems in (b) can be, and in the past on more than a few situations actually been, the cause of death, I consider there to be a complete difference between how serious (a) might be and how serious (b) actually is. Since I don't consider (a) to be an actual problem, ALL of the comments which follow are with respect to (b). Since none of us in classiccmp are going to have a major impact on the current IP laws, what I would appreciate are some comments on the above situation along with an opinion on the following aspects. After reading many opinions and observing the behaviour of many companies who produce software programs over the last 47 years, I think that I can summarize, obviously ONLY from my still limited viewpoint, as follows: (i) Companies who purposely release software with known bugs and care very little about fixing any bugs except when there are serious financial problems. (ii) Companies who take as much care as might seem reasonable, but still have no effective methods of dealing with problems when they arise. (iii) Companies who have quality as their highest priority and who fix any software bugs within a reasonable time period and provide the fixes to their end users as soon as possible. (iv) Companies who abandon their end users when any given software programs are no longer profitable and refuse to consider releasing the source code even when there are still known bugs to be corrected. (v) Companies who release the source code for software programs (especially after the company no longer provides any support or after no additional releases will be made) to at least the hobby community and in some case make the source code freely available, although without any additional support. >In regard to copyright, it's generally a safe bet that copyright is >good for a minimum of 70 years after publication--and probably longer >if you're talking about a WTO country. This is long enough that ANY >computer literature or programs that have been published are under >copyright protection. Being out of print or distrubution is not a >legal excuse for violating copyright--not for some old article from >Byte magazine, or an old Karl King march or a computer program. > >It is always the most prudent action to ASK if something may be >posted. It's important when asking to observe that you are not >asking the copyright owner to put things in the public domain, but >simply to agree to an alternate distribution method. His (or any >appropriate pronoun here) rights still are in force and infringement >may still be prosecuted. Offering to add an explicit copyright >notice to the posted material might improve the odds of success., > >And if the copyright holder refuses, it's prudent to respect that >wish--period. You didn't create the material, you don't own it and >attaching a label such as "abandonware" doesn't put you on any higher >legal ground. > >I'm assuming that before Al puts something up on bitsavers, he makes >some sort of effort to get an okay from the copyright holder before >posting. At least I hope he does. > >Cheers, >Chuck > It seems probable from everything that I am aware of that the company is ignoring hobby users who don't have a license to use the software program. The only result of attempting to resolve the situation would probably be a lot of effort to stop the hobby users and no revenue in return when that is accomplished - since the hobby users will just quit. With regard to commercial users who use the software program without a license, many are not even aware that they need the license any longer with their current hardware / software. In the US and Canada, I have found that most try to comply, although I know of one case many years ago when the company demanded a serial number before the license would be issued. The end user told the company to send the invoice for the license since the required serial number was inside the hardware (on the CPU) and the end user refused to open the cabinet. The company eventually did send the invoice and was paid without a serial number being provided. Note that I will not provide the specific name of the company since I am discussing issues as opposed to a specific example. Probably anyone who knows what I do (and did for a living) knows exactly what I am discussing and which company. I think this discussion should be limited to ONE response per person. I am curious as to what other people think is a reasonable approach. I know of one individual who probably feels that IP rights trump everything and that no bug ever needs to be fixed. Like selling a car with a defective gas tank. I will only reply to any specific questions off-list. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 27 00:59:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:59:18 -0700 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org>, <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org>, <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Mar 2007 at 16:14, Dave McGuire wrote: > For early PC editors, having to go through the BIOS is the big > display update bottleneck. Some programs achieved very fast screen > updates by writing directly to the display memory. The venerable > list.com comes to mind. ...which brings to mind Jim's comment on WordStar. IIRC, there were two versions of WS for DOS. One that used normal terminal I/O and one that used direct screen I/O. Of course, the display matters a lot on a PC-XT; CGA can't be updated without snow nearly as quickly as MDA/Herc. I do have a WS 4.00 for MS-DOS, which I didn't see in your list. It's the direct-write version. Going from the sublime to the ridiculous... You could always run Windows and Notepad. (Windows will run from a floppy if configured that way). Note that I'm talking about 1985 Windows that runs on a PC with CGA/Herc/EGA. VGA hadn't been invented yet. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 27 01:00:48 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:00:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mostek MK3881 PIO controller manual Message-ID: <234469.63994.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Ahh, i won the book Z80 Workshop Manual from ebay the other week. It mentions UART and PIO I/O chips on the back cover. Mine is a reprint from 1986 and was originally printed in 1983. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Does anyone know if the above is identical in spec to the "official" Zilog PIO > chip? The manual's dated November 1976 and stamped as preliminary, which is > a little unsettling :) > > I want to do some messing around with a Z80 CPU and PIO, and having a physical > paper reference to hand would sure be useful - I'm just not sure if I'm going > to shoot myself in the foot using this particular one! > > I should go and google for Zilog / Z80 history I suppose to see where Mostek > fit into things - I've got a rather thick Mostek UK Z80 programming manual > (V2.0) too which would also make a useful reference, assuming it's sound for > all Z80 chips regardless of source... > > cheers > > Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 27 01:51:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:51:14 -0700 Subject: Fortran Versions (was JB Passes) In-Reply-To: <460889E1.8070408@compsys.to> References: <Your message of <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <20070323170953.K79184@shell.lmi.net>, <460889E1.8070408@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46085C72.1233.336644C@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Mar 2007 at 22:05, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I don't have the time to compare FORTRAN IV and FORTRAN 77, > but I seem to have the feeling that I can use code in FORTRAN 77 > that is completely acceptable in FORTRAN IV. Maybe not every > program can be compatible (especially DOUBLE PRECISION and COMPLEX), > but a simple demo program should probably be identical. Sans vendor-specific extensions, you're probably right. At least that was the goal of F77. I did a few X3J3 sessions with what was then known informally as the FORTRAN 8x ANSI group (vector extensions on behalf of ETA) and at least then (1985), the goal was to maintain backward compatibility, albeit with quite a number of "deprecated" features. It was a nasty experience with threats by the IBM contingent to walk out of the proceedings. A big argument was "Should X3J3 simply select the best of the current extensions and ratify them or should we be about designing a new language?" It was a serious issue; IBM wanted Vectran ratified; many wanted an alternative syntax. Needless to say, with all of the contention, FORTRAN 8x wasn't about to meet the informal goal of becoming FORTRAN 88--it took until 1990-- and I'd been long gone. Full-blown F90 looks about as much like F77 as F2003 looks like F90. It's kind of like going back to the old neighborhood after 30 or 40 years--you recognize some things, but it's mostly foreign. I rather liked Basic FORTRAN IV (that's what it was called). A minimal functional subset; no logical IFs, ASSIGNed GOTOs, object- time FORMAT or named COMMON. Just a handful of statements that you could pretty much compile and run anywhere. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Mar 27 03:29:49 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:29:49 +0000 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <20070327000141.4491a079@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <C22E867D.90D4%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 26/3/07 22:01, "Jochen Kunz" <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote: > On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:09:51 -0500 > "Dan Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote: > >> Form factor 168pin dimm, 5v, FPM. The machine has two banks, each >> requires 4 dimms per bank. I have not been able to find any of these >> dimms. > Hmmm. IIRC some PowerMacs used that type of memory too, as well as the > Sun SPARCstation 4/5. In contrast: 3.3 V EDO DIMMs are quite common. I checked the compaq PROSIC CD yesterday and I'm sure it didn't say anything odd about the AS500 memory apart from the rules on bank filling; if I get the chance today I'll make sure. Cheers A -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Mar 27 03:05:19 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:05:19 +0000 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070326163511.012bd1e8@mail.30below.com> References: <BAY120-F9A0B857BDF6B42BD3BCE8BA690@phx.gbl> <001801c76f4e$c3aa7950$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4606D71E.3643.2DDA57A1@cclist.sydex.com> <5A27A2B4-E9CA-45AF-AD94-19C8EF7208D3@neurotica.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070326163511.012bd1e8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70703270105g6b2a83aehf02847bbf473beef@mail.gmail.com> On 26/03/07, Roger Merchberger <zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com> wrote: > > When I last moved (5 years ago), I went from a place that then (and now) > had at best 48K modem connections; usually worse, and nothing faster... and [..] > ISDN was available at the new place (and was the fastest available at the > time) and just having a line that _always_ gave me 64K up & down (and could > pair them for 128K as necessary) made multiple Telnet/SSH sessions a > breeze... (and Diablo II was quite happy as well)... at $62/month. > ~10 years ago we used to set up internet access in very small) businesses with little d-link analogue routers - 33.6Kbps downstream, if they were lucky. At least "flat rate" charging on the phone calls had just come in - a few customers had had very nasty surprises with chargeable calls when /quarterly/ phone bills had come in and they discovered employees leaving PCs running radio streams on all day., or backgrounded web pages with refresing adverts, or just windows.. and the connection time was abysmal going from idle to connected, on analogue, especially when you were at the other side of the building and couldn't hear the modem dialing.. When we started putting in ISDN, it was a world of difference. Reliable, quick (64 or 128K), instant connections.. even good enough to leave online and support SMTP email... Only slowed down when ~30 people decided to browse the net at lunchtime all at once.. BT have pretty much discontinued ISDN2 over here now. With most of the population able to have ADSL in some form, they see little demand. What ADSL doesn't do well, of course, is point to point links, being aimed squarely at internet access! We had more than one customer use ISDN directly between sites for linking their networks. Migrating these to VPNs via the internet was certanly possible, but whilst it increased the bandwidth, they were certainly not as responsive or as reliable. Rob From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 27 03:28:04 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 03:28:04 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <2EB47F9A-2490-4461-B940-EB5B71638615@neurotica.com> <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org> <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4608D594.6010909@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > For early PC editors, having to go through the BIOS is the big display > update bottleneck. Some programs achieved very fast screen updates by > writing directly to the display memory. The venerable list.com comes to > mind. Most of the ones I tested already write directly to screen ram -- the slowdown occurs when the internal structure the text is kept in (partial span trees, etc.) is so complex that merely painting the screen by traversing the structure is too slow. The fastest editors usually don't have a functional undo because such functionality usually requires something slightly more complex than a simple linked list of lines/strings. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 27 03:28:58 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 03:28:58 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <200703262037.l2QKbrin020114@mail2.magma.ca> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <200703262037.l2QKbrin020114@mail2.magma.ca> Message-ID: <4608D5CA.2030202@oldskool.org> dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: >> My own editor that I've used for over 25 years, is like TERSE, small >> and originally hosted on an 8080 CP/M. It's 11K, but has things such >> as shell out, capture output, variable indent and shortcut language- >> element keys (e.g., type Alt-M and you get a complete "int main(int >> argc, char *argv[]) { };" sequence). One of these days, I'm going >> to add long filename support. Every once in awhile, I try someone >> else's but I always return to my own. They'll probably bury a copy >> of it with my mortal remains. > > I'm the same way - my editor started back in my Altair days (in 8080 > assembly language), then got ported to 6809 assembly for my 6809 > system, and finally ended up in C, where it routinely gets recompiled > for whatever system I happen to be wanting to use. It's small, simple, > powerful enough for my purposes and most importantly - it's the same > no matter what platform I'm using - I've also tried other,more fancy/ > powerful tools - but I too always come back home. Since I admire the both of you, it looks like I'm going to have to follow in your footsteps and write my own editor :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 27 03:33:19 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 03:33:19 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <46084918.6070705@kurico.com> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <46084918.6070705@kurico.com> Message-ID: <4608D6CF.7030406@oldskool.org> George Currie wrote: > Well, I'm surprised you haven't just rolled your own ;) Simple editors > are not very difficult to write, I'm sure you can find various > libraries/routines to do most of the grunt work for you and you could be > the first person in 15 years to roll a new DOS text editor :) Writing a basic editor is easy -- speed and a functional undo, unfortunately, are not, and take some planning. DOS memory is segmented so you can't just insert characters and move memory down/up one byte at a time (and speed would be an issue with large files anyway). Nor can you go super-crazy with your data structure, because you'll sacrifice speed. Every year I sit down ready to write my own editor, and I usually give up after 3 minutes of trying to figure out the best compromise between my time, speed, and a functional undo. (Hence the research and article I posted.) > On a more serious note, have you checked out the Borland Editor > Toolbox? IIRC it let you roll an editor similar in features to their Yep; full example editor is 170KB and has no undo, but maybe I missed a source directive somewhere in building the example project. I'll take another look at it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 27 03:42:37 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 03:42:37 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org>, <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org>, <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4608D8FD.7090407@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I do have a WS 4.00 for MS-DOS, which I didn't see in your list. > It's the direct-write version. While the 3.30 version isn't in the test suite available for download, it too was the direct-write version (trying to select a display resulted in a message saying that IBM DISPLAY was the only choice) so I did indeed test a direct-write version. 5.0 also appeared to be direct-write. > Going from the sublime to the ridiculous... > > You could always run Windows and Notepad. (Windows will run from a > floppy if configured that way). Note that I'm talking about 1985 > Windows that runs on a PC with CGA/Herc/EGA. VGA hadn't been > invented yet. Ridiculous indeed. If I was forced to run a graphical environment just to write some text, I would rather it be Geoworks instead ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Mar 27 03:50:18 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:50:18 +0100 Subject: Mostek MK3881 PIO controller manual In-Reply-To: <234469.63994.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <234469.63994.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4608DACA.9060405@dunnington.plus.com> <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Does anyone know if the above is identical in spec to the "official" > Zilog PIO chip? The manual's dated November1976 and stamped > as preliminary, which is a little unsettling :) It should be identical. Mostek was the first official second-source for the Zilog Z80 family. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 27 06:53:55 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:53:55 +0100 Subject: 2.11BSD source code browser and xref In-Reply-To: <460828B5.70605@gsi.de> References: <460828B5.70605@gsi.de> Message-ID: <1174996435.6502.7.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 22:10 +0200, Walter F.J. Mueller wrote: > When searching lately a lot through the UNIX 2.11bsd source code I > wanted many times a hyperlinked and cross referenced rendition of the > sources, much like doxygen or lxr does it. For kernel, lib and user > code, for c and assembler. > > Since none of the existing tools seemed to do what I wanted, I wrote > a perl script generating such a html'ized version of the source code. This is very very cool. The /bin/sh code is a bit of a horror, isn't it? I bet someone can tell a funny story about that one... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 27 06:57:47 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:57:47 +0100 Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling In-Reply-To: <m1HVVSP-000J0gC@p850ug1> References: <m1HVVSP-000J0gC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <1174996667.6502.9.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Sun, 2007-03-25 at 17:20 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > We will get several comments after this post... > > I hope y'all will correct me. > > > > The acoustic coupler on the old teletype was 1200 baud, 10 characters per > > second > > That to me implies 120 signal line changes for each character. Can you > please explain what the heck was going on :-) ASR33 with a big Type-R sticker on the side ;-) Gordon From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Mar 27 07:40:03 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:40:03 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <460889A6.7010806@compsys.to> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <460889A6.7010806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <901922FE-CF42-4B12-BF42-EDC9A1F82E0D@xlisper.com> > >> I'm starting to collect some qbus equipment again and am trying >> to setup a system around a KDJ11-AA CPU. >> My current configuration is: >> BA23 enclosure >> KDJ11-AA (m8192) >> MSV11-QC (m7551 cf) >> DZQ11-M (m3106) >> RQDX3 (m7555) >> TQK50-AA (m7546) >> First, will it be possible to boot this configuration? Can I setup >> to start the KDJ11 in ODT mode and enter a bootstrap for the >> RQDX3 by hand? How long a program would I have to enter? > Jerome, Thanks for your detailed response. In fact, I'd like to thank everyone on cctalk for the great advice I've received. Based on all of your input, I've arranged the following change to my PDP-11 configuration: BA23 enclosure KDJ11-B CPU (includes console port and boot rom) (m8190) (thanks Dave!) MSV11-QC 4mb memory (m7551 cf) Sigma RQD11-EC ESDI controller RQDX3 for RX50 (m7555) TQK50-AA for TK50 (m7546 DLV11-J (for extra serial ports) (thanks Julian!) Possibly a Viking SCSI controller (for CD-ROM and maybe a hard drive) I have at least one working ESDI hard drive so that will be my boot device. My real problem is removable media. Even though I have an RQDX3 to control an RX50 drive, I don't have a working RX50 drive. Same goes for the TK50. I have non-working versions of both drives but nothing I can use to move software onto my system. Anyone have a working RX50 and/or TK50 drive they can spare? Thanks, David From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 07:46:51 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:46:51 -0400 Subject: 2.11BSD source code browser and xref In-Reply-To: <460828B5.70605@gsi.de> References: <460828B5.70605@gsi.de> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703270546g5b12301claf033c9dbb486109@mail.gmail.com> On 3/26/07, Walter F.J. Mueller <W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de> wrote: > When searching lately a lot through the UNIX 2.11bsd source code I > wanted many times a hyperlinked and cross referenced rendition of the > sources... > http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/bin/cp.c.html > http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/sys/sys/init_main.c.html Very nice. > As said, it's beta stage, the style sheet is still the debug version, > not all links end where they should, not all is parsed as it should. > > Hope you enjoy it. Comments, suggestion ect are very welcome. I had one tiny suggestion from what I browsed - when parsing out the callers of functions, it might look nicer to not point out that 'main()' is never called, since, technically, it _is_ called by the startup code stuck on a binary by the compiler, and since it's defacto entry-point into the code anyway. That's about all I can come up with except to wish that when the tool is in better shape that someone has the time to run 2.9BSD sources through the same treatment (2.9BSD still runs on non-Split-I&D machines like those equipped with an F-11 chip - 11/23, 11/24, Pro350). -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Mar 27 08:57:47 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:57:47 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration Message-ID: <0JFK00GC8EQTGGG3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> > Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:40:03 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> >>> I'm starting to collect some qbus equipment again and am trying >>> to setup a system around a KDJ11-AA CPU. >>> My current configuration is: >>> BA23 enclosure >>> KDJ11-AA (m8192) >>> MSV11-QC (m7551 cf) >>> DZQ11-M (m3106) >>> RQDX3 (m7555) >>> TQK50-AA (m7546) >>> First, will it be possible to boot this configuration? Can I setup >>> to start the KDJ11 in ODT mode and enter a bootstrap for the >>> RQDX3 by hand? How long a program would I have to enter? >> > >Jerome, > >Thanks for your detailed response. In fact, I'd like to thank >everyone on cctalk for the great advice I've received. Based on all >of your input, I've arranged the following change to my PDP-11 >configuration: > >BA23 enclosure >KDJ11-B CPU (includes console port and boot rom) (m8190) (thanks Dave!) >MSV11-QC 4mb memory (m7551 cf) >Sigma RQD11-EC ESDI controller >RQDX3 for RX50 (m7555) >TQK50-AA for TK50 (m7546 >DLV11-J (for extra serial ports) (thanks Julian!) >Possibly a Viking SCSI controller (for CD-ROM and maybe a hard drive) > >I have at least one working ESDI hard drive so that will be my boot >device. My real problem is removable media. Even though I have an >RQDX3 to control an RX50 drive, I don't have a working RX50 drive. >Same goes for the TK50. I have non-working versions of both drives >but nothing I can use to move software onto my system. Anyone have a >working RX50 and/or TK50 drive they can spare? A good substitute for RX50 is an RX33 (aka TEAC FD55GFR) or an FD55F setup as non1.2mb. RX50 drives are actually two platters but one head positioner and they are 96TPI like the mentioned FD55F or G. These work fine with RQDX2/3 as a RX50 substitute. I have one configured that way. Allison From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Mar 27 10:51:14 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:51:14 -0400 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4608D8FD.7090407@oldskool.org> References: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org> <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070327111506.012bd360@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >>Going from the sublime to the ridiculous... >>You could always run Windows and Notepad. (Windows will run from a >>floppy if configured that way). Note that I'm talking about 1985 Windows >>that runs on a PC with CGA/Herc/EGA. VGA hadn't been invented yet. > >Ridiculous indeed. If I was forced to run a graphical environment just to >write some text, I would rather it be Geoworks instead ;-) Or Multi-Vue on the CoCo... but honestly, I can't *stand* that either. It was always too slow for me, but I'm an impatient sot. ;-) >and.... George Currie wrote: > >>On a more serious note, have you checked out the Borland Editor >>Toolbox? IIRC it let you roll an editor similar in features to their > >Yep; full example editor is 170KB and has no undo, but maybe I missed a >source directive somewhere in building the example project. I'll take >another look at it. Quite possible - altho I wrote my first line editor as well ("MerchWrite," not surprisingly... ;-) was written in Basic and only had very basic functions (obviously no undo) it ported well between the Tandy computer lines... but my "current" favorite editor (for the last decade) is Jove; and altho it's old, there is a 32-bit port of it to Winders - and IIRC, it's only about 128K. I _can_ get it smaller in Linux with different compiler optimizations, but I've never tried to compile it on a M$ platform. For a small editor, it's got the closest Emacs keybindings I've found, is very configurable, fast & stable... Yes, it has undo. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 27 12:00:50 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:00:50 -0800 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <C22E867D.90D4%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C22E867D.90D4%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <p06240876c22efd992027@[192.168.1.199]> At 8:29 AM +0000 3/27/07, Adrian Graham wrote: >On 26/3/07 22:01, "Jochen Kunz" <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote: > >> On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:09:51 -0500 >> "Dan Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote: >> >>> Form factor 168pin dimm, 5v, FPM. The machine has two banks, each >>> requires 4 dimms per bank. I have not been able to find any of these >>> dimms. >> Hmmm. IIRC some PowerMacs used that type of memory too, as well as the >> Sun SPARCstation 4/5. In contrast: 3.3 V EDO DIMMs are quite common. > >I checked the compaq PROSIC CD yesterday and I'm sure it didn't say anything >odd about the AS500 memory apart from the rules on bank filling; if I get >the chance today I'll make sure. The 266Mhz and 333Mhz model AS500 and the 400Mhz and 500Mhz model of AS500 apparently use different spec'd RAM. I don't believe the old 5V Mac RAM (8500 era), Sun Sparc 4/5, and AlphaStation 500 RAM is compatible, but I might be wrong. It would be interesting to know. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 11:54:45 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:54:45 -0400 Subject: Archival plotting on mylar Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703270954t523f94b2l95d84a8a44dfbcf@mail.gmail.com> I was researching how best to plot out a map or two on my HP Draftmaster II, when I ran across a page about plots and storing them for decades as surveyors are required to do... http://www.aocweb.org/surveyors/archival.htm It got me to thinking about my own project - essentially a map on a light box (there's more to it, but that's all the map is about). I was thinking of plotting on mylar, but I was unable to find any HP plotter pens with permanent ink for anything other than paper. Has anyone on the list here had to do any archival plots for surveying? I'm sure that whatever products they are using would be more than sufficient for my purposes. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 27 12:08:38 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:08:38 -0700 Subject: Paxton Hoag on TV References: <p0624086ec22e203a5156@[192.168.1.199]> Message-ID: <362d01c77092$905ba610$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> >I was rather surprised to see Paxton on the news this last weekend. > He was in a spot on one of the local stations as a local historian > talking about a landslide that they're having problems with in his > part of the state. Cool. Too bad I missed it. Vince From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Mar 27 12:29:38 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:29:38 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <0JFK00GC8EQTGGG3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JFK00GC8EQTGGG3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <BD18A18D-2186-4A6D-90EF-C6A572E808DC@xlisper.com> > A good substitute for RX50 is an RX33 (aka TEAC FD55GFR) or an FD55F > setup as non1.2mb. RX50 drives are actually two platters but one head > positioner and they are 96TPI like the mentioned FD55F or G. These > work > fine with RQDX2/3 as a RX50 substitute. I have one configured that > way. Allison, Thanks for your suggestion. I amend my previous request. Does anyone have a Teac FD55GFR that they can spare? :-) Actually, I have one myself but it is installed in a DECmate III+ machine that I didn't want to cannibalize. I guess I could remove it temporarily to install software on my PDP-11 and then replace it later. But, if anyone has either an RX33 (FD55GFR) or an RX50 they can spare, please let me know what you would want in return. Thanks, David From sdc695 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 27 12:23:03 2007 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform Message-ID: <655595.71403.qm@web60815.mail.yahoo.com> All this talk of editors on PCs got me to thinking of my favorite: PC-EDT It was a clone of the EDT used under RSX-11(-M). Pretty faithful as well. It had problems with the keypad, being that the '+' took up two key spaces (as opposed to the standard VT-100 keypad), but overall it was nice. It even worked on old XT's and scrolled pretty fast. If you happened to do large Cut/Pastes it took some time as it swapped out the buffers to temp disk files. I still use the editor to this day after first using it in the 80's. The old keypad layout is pretty ingrained in my mind. EDT (on RSX-11) was my first screen editor, so I guess you get used to your 'first'. Unfortunately, vi seems everywhere, and as everyone knows knowledge of vi is almost mandatory for any person using Unix (Linux) (even today). Thankfully I haven't succumbed to emacs (and hopefully never will, even as the spell checker wants to capitalize the first letter!). -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de Tue Mar 27 12:46:43 2007 From: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:46:43 +0200 Subject: 2.11BSD source code browser and xref Message-ID: <46095883.2080006@gsi.de> Ethan Dicks ethan.dicks at gmail.com wrote: >> Hope you enjoy it. Comments, suggestion ect are very welcome. > I had one tiny suggestion from what I browsed - when parsing out the > callers of functions, it might look nicer to not point out that > 'main()' is never called, since, technically, it _is_ called by the > startup code stuck on a binary by the compiler, and since it's defacto > entry-point into the code anyway. Good point, _main deserves indeed extra treatment. The startup code is by the way in http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/lib/libc/pdp/csu/crt0.s.html with the call to _main in line 124. > That's about all I can come up with except to wish that when the tool > is in better shape that someone has the time to run 2.9BSD sources > through the same treatment (2.9BSD still runs on non-Split-I&D > machines like those equipped with an F-11 chip - 11/23, 11/24, > Pro350). > > -ethan This is indeed the intention. The rules to locate include files, to link globals, or to decide what is kernel, lib, or user, is in a configuration file. To set this up for 2.9 BSD or UNIX V7 and V6 should not be difficult, in particular if one starts with the more complex case and goes back in history. With best regards, Walter -- Dr. Walter F.J. M?ller Mail: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de GSI, Abteilung KP3 Phone: +49-6159-71-2766 D-64291 Darmstadt FAX: +49-6159-71-3762 URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/ From W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de Tue Mar 27 12:47:21 2007 From: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:47:21 +0200 Subject: 2.11BSD source code browser and xref Message-ID: <460958A9.4080703@gsi.de> Gordon JC Pearce gordon at gjcp.net wrote: >> Since none of the existing tools seemed to do what I wanted, I wrote >> a perl script generating such a html'ized version of the source code. > > This is very very cool. > > The /bin/sh code is a bit of a horror, isn't it? I bet someone can tell > a funny story about that one... > > Gordon Indeed there is 'C' and 'Bourne-C', used in sh and adb, see the definitions listed after http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/bin/sh/mac.h.html#n:12 http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/bin/adb/defs.h.html#n:27 Some of this is already handled in the parser, but there is clearly room for improvement. By the way: - point to a { } ( ) [ ] and a popup will tell you were the matching parenthesis is, it it is in a different line. Click on it, and you get moved to the matching end. In 'Bourne-C', IF and FI work this way. - point to a parameter-less macro, and a popup will tell you the definition if the string is short. With best regards, Walter -- Dr. Walter F.J. M?ller Mail: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de GSI, Abteilung KP3 Phone: +49-6159-71-2766 D-64291 Darmstadt FAX: +49-6159-71-3762 URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/ From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 27 12:54:10 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:54:10 +0000 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs Message-ID: <BAY107-F5CC0CAED13BB7C472C1A2D86E0@phx.gbl> Hi, I am thinking of building a programmer for the 2708 EPROM, that can also read an EPROM and dump it to a serial port. As 2708s are obsolete few moern programmers support them, apart from a few that cost many $100s. So I thought why not try and build one? I've found references to the following classic magazines, and I would be willing to pay a small fee for photocopies or scans of the articles: Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read only memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to set data and address. The software to drive the programmer is written in BASIC. Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) How to program 2708 EPROM's using this circuit board and program. Byte - April 1980 page 198 on (main article) Byte - September 1980 page 321 (follow-on) A Simple 2708 EPROM Programmer ... For the Motorola D2 kit ... Frank W. Summers. Kilobaud - February 1980, page 138 (magazine is currently on eBay) #638 2708 EPROM programmer. Electronics Today International (ETI) - July 1978 Instead of money I can provide (or copy / scan articles) any of 24 issues of Byte from 1981 to 1997 (including 11 issues from 1986) which I don't want to keep. or I can photocopy / scan articles from nearly any copy of Practical Computing from 1978 to 1985 (which I do want to keep). If you have built your own design of 2708 programmer and want to share that would be great too. Thanks, John _________________________________________________________________ Match.com - Click Here To Find Singles In Your Area Today! http://msnuk.match.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 27 13:22:19 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:22:19 -0500 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <C22E867D.90D4%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C22E867D.90D4%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <460960DB.3060700@mdrconsult.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 26/3/07 22:01, "Jochen Kunz" <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote: >> Hmmm. IIRC some PowerMacs used that type of memory too, as well as the >> Sun SPARCstation 4/5. In contrast: 3.3 V EDO DIMMs are quite common. > > I checked the compaq PROSIC CD yesterday and I'm sure it didn't say anything > odd about the AS500 memory apart from the rules on bank filling; if I get > the chance today I'll make sure. I have an AS500/500 on the bench and a handful of 5V FPM DIMMs from a PM8500 in the drawer. I'll pop the top off the Alpha later and compare. If they're compatible, that'd be *way* too easy. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 27 14:59:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:59:32 -0700 Subject: Fortran Versions (was JB Passes) In-Reply-To: <46085C72.1233.336644C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <Your message of <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <20070323170953.K79184@shell.lmi.net>, <460889E1.8070408@compsys.to> <46085C72.1233.336644C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <460977A4.2040303@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I rather liked Basic FORTRAN IV (that's what it was called). A > minimal functional subset; no logical IFs, ASSIGNed GOTOs, object- > time FORMAT or named COMMON. Just a handful of statements that you > could pretty much compile and run anywhere. I rather liked full blown FORTRAN IV. I have been looking at the PDP8 Fortran IV version and all things considered that was a powerful machine for its price range in the 1970's. All this talk of Fortran 77, 90 make fortran a more modern langage but it seems to me they lost something in that the old programs have to be re-written since they don't support things like sence switches for example. > Cheers, > Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 27 15:14:36 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:14:36 -0700 Subject: Mostek MK3881 PIO controller manual References: <460830C6.3050009@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46097B2C.F2D8CE76@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone know if the above is identical in spec to the "official" Zilog PIO > chip? The manual's dated November 1976 and stamped as preliminary, which is > a little unsettling :) > > I want to do some messing around with a Z80 CPU and PIO, and having a physical > paper reference to hand would sure be useful - I'm just not sure if I'm going > to shoot myself in the foot using this particular one! > > I should go and google for Zilog / Z80 history I suppose to see where Mostek > fit into things - I've got a rather thick Mostek UK Z80 programming manual > (V2.0) too which would also make a useful reference, assuming it's sound for > all Z80 chips regardless of source... Not quite a definitive answer, but the ECG cross-reference shows the Z80-PIO replaceable by ECG type 3881. Or more precisely: 3881 Z80A-PIOB1 Z80A-PIO-CS Z80A-PIOD1 Z80A-PIO-PS Z80-PIOB1 Z80-PIO-CS Z80-PIOD1 Z80-PIO-PS all cross-ref to ECG 3881. That would (should) make the 3881 a plug-in replacement for the Z80-PIO (not just a "use in new design" type), but I guess it leaves open the possibility of some additional functionality in the 3881. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 27 15:41:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fortran Versions (was JB Passes) In-Reply-To: <46085C72.1233.336644C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <Your message of <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <20070323170953.K79184@shell.lmi.net>, <460889E1.8070408@compsys.to> <46085C72.1233.336644C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070327133549.J80838@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 26 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I rather liked Basic FORTRAN IV (that's what it was called). A > minimal functional subset; no logical IFs, ASSIGNed GOTOs, object- > time FORMAT or named COMMON. Just a handful of statements that you > could pretty much compile and run anywhere. I remember doing object-time FORMAT in about 1970 at George Washington University on my father's faculty account. But, ... maybe that was in WATFOR. (I was printing out depth of focus tables for some lenses) Yes, a real programmer can write a FORTRAN IV program in FORTRAN 77. But, I was teaching it (1983), and besides my professional responsibility to include the enhancements, some of my students liked to explore. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From auringer at tds.net Tue Mar 27 15:49:36 2007 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:49:36 -0500 Subject: Archival plotting on mylar In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703270954t523f94b2l95d84a8a44dfbcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0703270954t523f94b2l95d84a8a44dfbcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46098360.1010002@tds.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > It got me to thinking about my own project - essentially a map on a > light box (there's more to it, but that's all the map is about). I > was thinking of plotting on mylar, but I was unable to find any HP > plotter pens with permanent ink for anything other than paper. Has > anyone on the list here had to do any archival plots for surveying? > I'm sure that whatever products they are using would be more than > sufficient for my purposes. Try this: http://www.esscosupply.com/draft/penplot.htm We used the refillable style pens which can be messy, but it did allow the cleaning of the nib in the ultrasonic cleaner. This was almost always needed before use. At one point our department assigned someone to clean the damn things every morning in hopes of them being useful all day. Occasionally that would hold true. :( Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 27 15:56:32 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070327111506.012bd360@mail.30below.com> References: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org> <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070327111506.012bd360@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> Although it doesn't meet your personal specs, did you know that Electric Pencil was available on PC? From hamren at sdu.se Tue Mar 27 16:26:53 2007 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:26:53 +0200 Subject: Computer Automation collection. Message-ID: <17929.35869.435048.282690@localhost.localdomain> Hi, Jules, Yes, please take some more photos of your Alpha-16 , and get and part numbers that you can see. Let's continue off list, and maybe summarize when we are done. Kind regards /Lars Hamr?n ------------------------------------------------------------------- Lars Hamr?n Tel...: +46( 46)189090 Svensk Datorutveckling Mobile: +46(705)189090 Vadm?llan 211 e-mail: hamren at sdu.se S-225 94 Lund WWW...: www.sdu.se Sweden From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Mar 27 16:29:05 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dec TU81 tape drive issues Message-ID: <579065.36406.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> After cleaning and checking it out, I fired up my newly acquired Dec TU81 tape drive today. It gave an error code of E56 on the front panel. I tried clearing the error, and loading up a reel of tape and hitting the Load switch. It makes a whirring noise, and the take-up reel turns a small amount, then it shuts off - the Logic Off light lit. So... looking in the manual on bitsavers, it looks like E56 is a servo control sort of error. Before I start tearing into this drive in what may be a dead end at a bad motor, I figured I'd ask the experts here - Am I looking at a bad servo, or is this some known failing capacitor/regulator/fuse sort of a problem? Thanks! -Ian From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Tue Mar 27 18:01:44 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:01:44 -0500 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations Message-ID: <000501c770c3$e42349c0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> On 26/3/07 22:01, "Jochen Kunz" <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote: > On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:09:51 -0500 > "Dan Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote:> >> Form factor 168pin dimm, 5v, FPM. The machine has two banks, each >> requires 4 dimms per bank. I have not been able to find any of these>> dimms. > Hmmm. IIRC some PowerMacs used that type of memory too, as well as the > Sun SPARCstation 4/5. In contrast: 3.3 V EDO DIMMs are quite common. I've also read the PowerMAC 5v dimms and some of the Sun dimms were compatible, I am a bit chicken to experiment as my AS500/400, it is still in use.. I did verify the 5v spec by looking at a spare AS500/266 motherboard's dimm sockets with a magnifying glass, clearly marked on the center notch it is marked "5.0v", I did not compare the other notch locations to verify EDO/FPM or otherwise. Dan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Mar 27 17:15:12 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:15:12 -0400 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration Message-ID: <0JFL001UZ1RQ13Q4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> > Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:29:38 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> A good substitute for RX50 is an RX33 (aka TEAC FD55GFR) or an FD55F >> setup as non1.2mb. RX50 drives are actually two platters but one head >> positioner and they are 96TPI like the mentioned FD55F or G. These >> work >> fine with RQDX2/3 as a RX50 substitute. I have one configured that >> way. > >Allison, > >Thanks for your suggestion. I amend my previous request. Does anyone >have a Teac FD55GFR that they can spare? :-) > >Actually, I have one myself but it is installed in a DECmate III+ >machine that I didn't want to cannibalize. I guess I could remove it >temporarily to install software on my PDP-11 and then replace it >later. But, if anyone has either an RX33 (FD55GFR) or an RX50 they >can spare, please let me know what you would want in return. > >Thanks, >David I can give you one of each if you like. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 27 17:49:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:49:39 -0700 Subject: Fortran Versions (was JB Passes) In-Reply-To: <460977A4.2040303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <Your message of <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46085C72.1233.336644C@cclist.sydex.com>, <460977A4.2040303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46093D13.4686.1A741EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Mar 2007 at 12:59, woodelf wrote: > I rather liked full blown FORTRAN IV. I have been looking at > the PDP8 Fortran IV version and all things considered that was > a powerful machine for its price range in the 1970's. > All this talk of Fortran 77, 90 make fortran a more modern > langage but it seems to me they lost something in that the old > programs have to be re-written since they don't support things > like sence switches for example. The problem with "full blown" FORTRAN IV was the same as "full blown" FORTRAN II and "full blown" FORTRAN--everyone had extensions--and what the selfsame extensions did could vary wildly between vendors. Some used the logical operators as bitwise booleans; e.g., C = A.OR.B; there were optional arguments in I/O statement syntax, additional FORMAT specifiers, etc. FWIW, I think that IBM FORTRAN IV supported sense switches only through function calls. CDC 6000- series machines didn't have sense switches (or blinkinlights) -- rather a location in low memory within the user's RA could be set via operator command. I seem to recall (this was a LONG time ago) that 7090 FORTRAN had extensions that keyed off of what was punched in column 1. "D" meant that the operators were double precision; "B" meant boolean, "I" meant complex (IIRC). The big problem with permissive-by-default vendor-unique extensions is that it's just about impossible to keep programmers from using them--and so make migration to a different vendor's platform more difficult than it needs to be. You haven't lived until you've worked on an RFP response that addresses how you're going to handle another vendor's extension to a supposedly "standard" language. Didn't COBOL 75 mandate that the "standard" language contain no vendor extensions unless specifically enabled? Again, it's been a long time, but I seem to recall a something in that spirit. (COBOL was even worse than FORTRAN when it came to vendor-unique features). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 27 17:52:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:52:08 -0700 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> References: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070327111506.012bd360@mail.30below.com>, <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46093DA8.28054.1A987E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Mar 2007 at 13:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > Although it doesn't meet your personal specs, > did you know that Electric Pencil was available on PC? I think I mentioned it off-list to Jim. Didn't EP eventually morph into Lotus Ami Pro--or am I thinking of a different word-processing package? Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 27 17:52:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <460960DB.3060700@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Mar 27, 2007 01:22:19 PM Message-ID: <200703272252.l2RMqc5Q020815@onyx.spiritone.com> > Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 26/3/07 22:01, "Jochen Kunz" <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote: > > >> Hmmm. IIRC some PowerMacs used that type of memory too, as well as the > >> Sun SPARCstation 4/5. In contrast: 3.3 V EDO DIMMs are quite common. > > > > I checked the compaq PROSIC CD yesterday and I'm sure it didn't say anything > > odd about the AS500 memory apart from the rules on bank filling; if I get > > the chance today I'll make sure. > > I have an AS500/500 on the bench and a handful of 5V FPM DIMMs from a > PM8500 in the drawer. I'll pop the top off the Alpha later and compare. > If they're compatible, that'd be *way* too easy. I'm more interested in knowing if the DIMM's from a PowerMac 8500/180 will work in an AlphaStation 500/333! If they do I, I'm not sure what my reaction will be... I suspect it will be a mixture of seriously ticked off, and a bit happy. Though I can't remember how many DIMM's are in my 8500, the 128MB I added might be a pair of 64Mb DIMM's. Even 1 128Mb kit, or 1 256Mb kit would make the system usable (right now it has 1 64Mb kit and 1 32Mb kit). The only thing is, as I have a PWS 433au, and a spare XP1000/500, it wouldn't make any real sense to spend money to get it up and running. I wonder how much RAM is in my Sparc 5.... BTW, I did some Googling. It looks like this might work, *IF* you have parity RAM in the donor Mac, but apparently that's pretty rare. It looks like a Sparc 5 might make a better donor. Zane From steerex at mindspring.com Tue Mar 27 16:53:50 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:53:50 -0500 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs References: <BAY107-F5CC0CAED13BB7C472C1A2D86E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <001001c770ba$67fc89a0$0701a8c0@win2000> I recently bought a "Willem" programmer off Ebay for about $50. I've been using it for 2764s and 27256s. It does a lot of different ROMs including (I think) 2708s. It beats the crap out of my old, tempermental, PIA, Prolog programmer :-) Highly recommended. See ya, SteveRob ----- Original Message ----- From: "John S" <john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 12:54 PM Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs > Hi, > > I am thinking of building a programmer for the 2708 EPROM, that can also > read an EPROM and dump it to a serial port. > > As 2708s are obsolete few moern programmers support them, apart from a few > that cost many $100s. So I thought why not try and build one? I've found > references to the following classic magazines, and I would be willing to pay > a small fee for photocopies or scans of the articles: > > Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read only > memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to set data and > address. The software to drive the programmer is written in BASIC. > Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) > Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) > > How to program 2708 EPROM's using this circuit board and program. > Byte - April 1980 page 198 on (main article) > Byte - September 1980 page 321 (follow-on) > > A Simple 2708 EPROM Programmer ... For the Motorola D2 kit ... Frank W. > Summers. > Kilobaud - February 1980, page 138 (magazine is currently on eBay) > > #638 2708 EPROM programmer. > Electronics Today International (ETI) - July 1978 > > Instead of money I can provide (or copy / scan articles) any of 24 issues of > Byte from 1981 to 1997 (including 11 issues from 1986) which I don't want to > keep. or I can photocopy / scan articles from nearly any copy of Practical > Computing from 1978 to 1985 (which I do want to keep). > > If you have built your own design of 2708 programmer and want to share that > would be great too. > > Thanks, > John > > _________________________________________________________________ > Match.com - Click Here To Find Singles In Your Area Today! > http://msnuk.match.com/ > From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Tue Mar 27 18:00:20 2007 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:00:20 -0700 Subject: Fortran Versions (was JB Passes) In-Reply-To: <460977A4.2040303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <Your message of <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <20070323170953.K79184@shell.lmi.net>, <460889E1.8070408@compsys.to> <46085C72.1233.336644C@cclist.sydex.com> <460977A4.2040303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <C7BC93CD8D8F4B478E4417597614FB752B4DC1@ala-mail08.corp.ad.wrs.com> > old programs have to be re-written since they don't support > things like sence switches for example. I suspect because the concept of a sense switch on a contemporary machine is moot - there are no physical switches to toggle to signal a change in the execution of a program. How did newer versions of the language handle deprecation of the sense switch - error, warning, ignore? Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 1:00 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Fortran Versions (was JB Passes) > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > I rather liked Basic FORTRAN IV (that's what it was called). A > > minimal functional subset; no logical IFs, ASSIGNed GOTOs, object- > > time FORMAT or named COMMON. Just a handful of > statements that you > > could pretty much compile and run anywhere. > > I rather liked full blown FORTRAN IV. I have been looking at > the PDP8 Fortran IV version and all things considered that > was a powerful machine for its price range in the 1970's. > All this talk of Fortran 77, 90 make fortran a more modern > langage but it seems to me they lost something in that the > old programs have to be re-written since they don't support > things like sence switches for example. > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > > From adamg at pobox.com Tue Mar 27 18:33:03 2007 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:33:03 -0400 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs Message-ID: <20070327233303.GA39659@silme.pair.com> John S wrote: > As 2708s are obsolete few moern programmers support them, apart from a few > that cost many $100s. So I thought why not try and build one? I've found > references to the following classic magazines, and I would be willing to pay > a small fee for photocopies or scans of the articles: > > Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read only > memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to set data and > address. The software to drive the programmer is written in BASIC. > Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) > Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) Someone will probably send you scans, but if not, be aware that the Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar articles in Byte were also published in book form. "Program your next EROM in BASIC" is in Volume 1. Your local public library might have a copy, if they're not too ardent about throwing things away. -- Adam From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Mar 27 19:30:24 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:30:24 -0700 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations Message-ID: <90624070f1dcff9d7b7d2e4335a75312@valleyimplants.com> > Jochen Kunz wrote > On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:09:51 -0500 > "Dan Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote: > >> Form factor 168pin dimm, 5v, FPM. The machine has two banks, each >> requires 4 dimms per bank. I have not been able to find any of these >> dimms. > Hmmm. IIRC some PowerMacs used that type of memory too, as well as the > Sun SPARCstation 4/5. In contrast: 3.3 V EDO DIMMs are quite common. The Mac memory is generally not ECC, and probably will not work. SPARCstation 5 DIMMS max out at 32MB, so I'm not sure if it will be any benefit even if it works (and knowing DIGITAL I'd not be too quick to rule out something proprietary - look at the number of HP 72-pin memory modules that look exactly like 36-bit SIMMS (HP/Apollo 400 series, HP 9000 PA-RISC mid-'90s modules (both incompatible with each other as well)...) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 27 20:22:49 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:22:49 -0500 Subject: Computer Automation collection. In-Reply-To: <17929.35869.435048.282690@localhost.localdomain> References: <17929.35869.435048.282690@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4609C369.8060602@yahoo.co.uk> Lars Hamren wrote: > Let's continue off list, and maybe summarize when we are done. Unfortunately your mail server doesn't seem to like mine - I got a bounce message back when trying to reply to your off-list message (There doesn't seem to be any obvious reason in the text/headers - it just says "Message rejected by recipient", and that the bounce was auto-generated by TMDA). Maybe you can do some digging your end to see what the reason is? Sadly it seems that these days email is becoming more and more unusable :( cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 27 21:06:25 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:06:25 -0500 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> References: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org> <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070327111506.012bd360@mail.30below.com> <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4609CDA1.4040008@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > Although it doesn't meet your personal specs, > did you know that Electric Pencil was available on PC? I did, and I've always wanted to try it, but I couldn't find a copy anywhere. Being that it has its roots on, what, Apple II? I would imagine it would be very fast indeed. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 28 00:49:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:49:28 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer footage in "The Trap" In-Reply-To: <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> References: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070327111506.012bd360@mail.30below.com>, <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46099F78.16195.32796E7@cclist.sydex.com> How many different systems has any of the UK contingent been able to identify on the BBC 2 Adam Curtis series "The Trap"? He certainly seems to like his tape drives! Cheers, Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Wed Mar 28 00:59:10 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:59:10 -0700 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <200703272252.l2RMqc5Q020815@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703272252.l2RMqc5Q020815@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <7BC8E2C1-E1E3-41C3-B1FD-85027AC027F7@typewritten.org> > BTW, I did some Googling. It looks like this might work, *IF* you > have > parity RAM in the donor Mac, but apparently that's pretty rare. It > looks > like a Sparc 5 might make a better donor. The SPARCstation 5 uses only one parity bit per 32-bit word, giving a 66 bit wide memory module. Some (primarily 8 MB) modules were 72 bits wide anyway, but most were not. Good luck getting them to work in an AlphaStation. ok bear From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Mar 28 01:14:29 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:14:29 -0800 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <000501c770c3$e42349c0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <000501c770c3$e42349c0$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <460A07C5.9070704@msm.umr.edu> Dan Snyder wrote: >On 26/3/07 22:01, "Jochen Kunz" <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote: > > >>On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:09:51 -0500 >>"Dan Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote:> >> >> >>>Form factor 168pin dimm, 5v, FPM. The machine has two banks, each >>>requires 4 dimms per bank. I have not been able to find any of these>> >>> >>> >dimms. > > We used the 133mhz, 233mhz, and 500 (or so) mhz boards for servers at our company, and an OEM motherboard. There were memory modules on the cpu board that had a sad history with us. I was told that someone tried to use an off brand early on, which was blamed by DEC (or the reseller we bought the boxes from) for failures in the field. All of them (10 or so systems) had the off brand pulled and DEC put in. Problems vanished. I relate this as we took over the company in 2000 after everyone was fired, and this had happened sometime in the early to mid 90's. I could look at my notes, and someone here would call me on it, as I don't recall when the servers were put out. The company had only bought the motherboards, and cpu's and had built up the enclosures, power, etc. They added a couple or three DEC nic's and a scsi controller, but hooked up via serial port to boot the system, no display card. I suspect that a lot of these systems will turn up without memory because the real value in an old system is for the memory. Or if a "gold scrapper" or some other rocket scientist gets hold it, they strip the memory just because they think it is valuable. Sadly the memory is rare according to the fellow who still has to handle the bit of support that the company still does, but we have lots of tradeins to pull our memory from now, as everyone has migrated to Linux. BTW they used Dec Unix for some reason, I think because they could get the bare system boards cheap, and build a "redundant backup power" system, and try to save money. It was useful to the marketing types to build a system, rather than integrating a system, which was also a motive. AIX would have fit most users early on, and thru the period that systems were shipped with these Alphas, or even HP/UX, as almost no one used Dec Unix. One big bank was the only ones who used it, and that was only after the fact. They werent the reason that the Alpha was used. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 28 01:21:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:21:59 -0700 Subject: Fortran Versions (was JB Passes) In-Reply-To: <C7BC93CD8D8F4B478E4417597614FB752B4DC1@ala-mail08.corp.ad.wrs.com> References: <Your message of <4601EBD6.2030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <460977A4.2040303@jetnet.ab.ca>, <C7BC93CD8D8F4B478E4417597614FB752B4DC1@ala-mail08.corp.ad.wrs.com> Message-ID: <4609A717.246.3455E5E@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Mar 2007 at 16:00, Courtney, Lee wrote: > How did newer versions of the language handle deprecation of the sense > switch - error, warning, ignore? There's no reason why they can't be supported if you don't have "real" sense switches. As I mentioned in a later message, sense switches were supported on the CDC 6000 systems and there are no sense switches, go buttons or even blinking lights that the operator can get to after deadstart. However, the operator's console had commands n.ONSW,x and n.OFFSW,x which toggled bits in a location in low memory within control point "n"'s RA, which corresponded to sense switches. I also believe that SCOPE and KRONOS/MACE both had job control statements to do the same. Cheers, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Mar 28 03:10:01 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue Message-ID: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There are a pair of these drives on eBay, with 10 hours and a few minutes to go. The current high bidder is a gold scrapper (jeepguymud), and he hacks up old mainframes and sells gold parts on eBay. Anyone in the Cincinatti area? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220094878959 --Bill From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 28 05:17:15 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:17:15 +0000 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs Message-ID: <BAY107-F36A1D5168436EDE67CA44D86D0@phx.gbl> John_a_s at hotmail.com wrote >I've found references to the following classic magazines, and I would be >willing to pay a small fee >for photocopies or scans of the articles: Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read only memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to set data and address. The software to drive the programmer is written in BASIC. Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) How to program 2708 EPROM's using this circuit board and program. Byte - April 1980 page 198 on (main article) Byte - September 1980 page 321 (follow-on) A Simple 2708 EPROM Programmer ... For the Motorola D2 kit ... Frank W. Summers. Kilobaud - February 1980, page 138 (magazine is currently on eBay) #638 2708 EPROM programmer. Electronics Today International (ETI) - July 1978 >Instead of money I can provide (or copy / scan articles) any of 24 issues >of Byte from 1981 to >1997 (including 11 issues from 1986) Apoloiges I should have written 'as well as sending money I can also provide copies / scans etc.' Steve Robertson (steerex at mindspring.com) wrote: >I recently bought a "Willem" programmer off Ebay Thanks, I've borrowed one of these in the past, and it worked fine with single voltage EPROMs (like 2764s) but most 2708s require 3 rails including -5V and -12V. Also the Willem has a limited programming voltage (unless you add an external PSU). Adam Goldman (adamg at pobox.com) wrote: >be aware that the Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar articles in Byte were also >published in book form OK, thanks for that. I've just found on comp.os.cpm that Steve's articles are also in his book 'Build your own Z80 computer'. I don't think these books will be in our local library, they tend to clear old old books to make way for new ones. I would welcome offers from anyone with the book versions also. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail, News, Sport and Entertainment from MSN on your mobile. http://www.msn.txt4content.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 28 10:30:43 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:30:43 -0700 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations Message-ID: <BAY138-F3722D71140D2CD187F9DFDA36D0@phx.gbl> >From: Scott Quinn <compoobah at valleyimplants.com> > >>Jochen Kunz wrote > >>On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:09:51 -0500 >>"Dan Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> wrote: >> >>>Form factor 168pin dimm, 5v, FPM. The machine has two banks, each >>>requires 4 dimms per bank. I have not been able to find any of these >>>dimms. >>Hmmm. IIRC some PowerMacs used that type of memory too, as well as the >>Sun SPARCstation 4/5. In contrast: 3.3 V EDO DIMMs are quite common. > >The Mac memory is generally not ECC, and probably will not work. >SPARCstation 5 DIMMS max out at 32MB, so I'm not sure if it will be any >benefit even if it works (and knowing DIGITAL I'd not be too quick to rule >out something proprietary - look at the number of HP 72-pin memory modules >that look exactly like 36-bit SIMMS (HP/Apollo 400 series, HP 9000 PA-RISC >mid-'90s modules (both incompatible with each other as well)...) > > Hi There was a company here in California that had many DIMM and SIMM boards that they would build different memories for you. They'd just solder DRAM or whatever to the board you needed. I had them make a RAM board for my HP IIIsi. I don't recall the name but it was either in Milpitas or Fremont. Some searching on the web should turn them up. They were much cheaper than the same RAM cards from HP. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ i'm making a difference.?Make every IM count for the cause of your choice. Join Now. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtagline From ics65 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 28 12:13:37 2007 From: ics65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:13:37 -0500 Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c7715c$6dd5da50$09a8df45@ics> I'm in Columbus, Ohio ~2-3 hours from Cincinnati. What did you have in mind? I'm not personally interested in the units but I don't want them to be scrapped either. By the way, are there any other known Ebay "Scrappers" to be ware of? ,George Wiegand ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" <wmaddox at pacbell.net> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 3:10 AM Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue > There are a pair of these drives on eBay, with 10 > hours > and a few minutes to go. The current high bidder is > a gold scrapper (jeepguymud), and he hacks up old > mainframes and sells gold parts on eBay. Anyone > in the Cincinatti area? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220094878959 > > --Bill > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 17:22:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:22:40 -0400 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F5CC0CAED13BB7C472C1A2D86E0@phx.gbl> References: <BAY107-F5CC0CAED13BB7C472C1A2D86E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <3DD3CD72-32A7-4971-BB1A-DA8E501BABA8@neurotica.com> On Mar 27, 2007, at 1:54 PM, John S wrote: > I am thinking of building a programmer for the 2708 EPROM, that can > also read an EPROM and dump it to a serial port. > > As 2708s are obsolete few moern programmers support them, apart > from a few that cost many $100s. So I thought why not try and build > one? I've found references to the following classic magazines, and > I would be willing to pay a small fee for photocopies or scans of > the articles: > > Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read > only memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to > set data and address. The software to drive the programmer is > written in BASIC. > Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) > Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) I can provide scans of this article. I will see if I can get it done tonight. I seem to recall Ciarcia having done a couple of other programmers after this (very early) one; I will check his books to see. I'll see if I can get to this tonight. It would be near-trivial to adapt the original design to be driven by a microcontroller, by the way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 18:00:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:00:46 -0400 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <200703272252.l2RMqc5Q020815@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200703272252.l2RMqc5Q020815@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <06E59C79-1840-4D00-A877-E98C35CAE1BE@neurotica.com> On Mar 27, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I have an AS500/500 on the bench and a handful of 5V FPM DIMMs >> from a >> PM8500 in the drawer. I'll pop the top off the Alpha later and >> compare. >> If they're compatible, that'd be *way* too easy. > > I'm more interested in knowing if the DIMM's from a PowerMac > 8500/180 will > work in an AlphaStation 500/333! If they do I, I'm not sure what my > reaction will be... I suspect it will be a mixture of seriously > ticked off, > and a bit happy. Though I can't remember how many DIMM's are in my > 8500, > the 128MB I added might be a pair of 64Mb DIMM's. Even 1 128Mb > kit, or 1 > 256Mb kit would make the system usable (right now it has 1 64Mb kit > and 1 > 32Mb kit). The only thing is, as I have a PWS 433au, and a spare > XP1000/500, it wouldn't make any real sense to spend money to get > it up and > running. > > I wonder how much RAM is in my Sparc 5.... > > BTW, I did some Googling. It looks like this might work, *IF* you > have > parity RAM in the donor Mac, but apparently that's pretty rare. It > looks > like a Sparc 5 might make a better donor. I can tell you for sure that SPARCstation-5 DIMMs do not work in a PowerMac 7500/8500 series motherboard. I tried awfully hard.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 28 10:52:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:52:16 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue In-Reply-To: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <A79D1FEF-B48E-4F83-A48A-6BE5562F7CAC@neurotica.com> On Mar 28, 2007, at 4:10 AM, William Maddox wrote: > There are a pair of these drives on eBay, with 10 > hours > and a few minutes to go. The current high bidder is > a gold scrapper (jeepguymud), and he hacks up old > mainframes and sells gold parts on eBay. Anyone > in the Cincinatti area? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220094878959 Ahh crap, he scored a bunch of mainframe stuff two days ago that was here in Florida, including a Multiprise for $300...so I guess he hacks up new mainframes too. I was thinking of trying to grab it but I don't have the budget for it. Crap. If I'd known he was a scrapper I'd have done more. -D. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 28 11:30:35 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:30:35 -0400 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F36A1D5168436EDE67CA44D86D0@phx.gbl> References: <BAY107-F36A1D5168436EDE67CA44D86D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E948458E-7E58-41A1-A708-754DE90F6210@neurotica.com> On Mar 28, 2007, at 6:17 AM, John S wrote: >> be aware that the Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar articles in Byte were >> also published in >> book form > > OK, thanks for that. I've just found on comp.os.cpm that Steve's > articles are also in his book 'Build your own Z80 computer'. I > don't think these books will be in our local library, they tend to > clear old old books to make way for new ones. I would welcome > offers from anyone with the book versions also. No, Steve's magazine articles are *not* present in that book. It is an entirely separate work. And an excellent one, at that. I have a bunch of issues of BYTE, but none of the very old ones unfortunately. (I'd sure like to get them eventually) I do, however, have all of Steve Ciarcia's books. I'll be scanning the "Program Your Next EROM in BASIC" article for you in the next few minutes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Mar 28 11:34:54 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:34:54 -0400 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4609CDA1.4040008@oldskool.org> References: <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org> <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070327111506.012bd360@mail.30below.com> <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070328123352.04b7ddd0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Fred Cisin wrote: >>Although it doesn't meet your personal specs, >>did you know that Electric Pencil was available on PC? > >I did, and I've always wanted to try it, but I couldn't find a copy >anywhere. Being that it has its roots on, what, Apple II? I would >imagine it would be very fast indeed. I dunno about Apples, but there was a version for the TRS-80 Model I. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 28 11:40:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:40:41 -0700 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4609CDA1.4040008@oldskool.org> References: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net>, <4609CDA1.4040008@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <460A3819.5518.57BCF9F@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Mar 2007 at 21:06, Jim Leonard wrote: > I did, and I've always wanted to try it, but I couldn't find a copy > anywhere. Being that it has its roots on, what, Apple II? I would > imagine it would be very fast indeed. I thought EP was strictly an 8080-CP/M product. It wouldn't surprise me if a 6502 version was eventually produced, but the only versions I've ever seen have been Intel platform. Visicalc, the other killer app, is a different story, however. Cheers, Chuck From W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de Wed Mar 28 12:10:11 2007 From: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:10:11 +0200 Subject: 2.11BSD source code browser and xref --> css and IE 6 Message-ID: <460AA173.6040105@gsi.de> I got some feedback about problems with the css style file I use and IE 6. Due to an oversight three named colors not known to IE 6 were used, I fixed this. Now all text is at least visible. There is still a problem on some pages with IE 6 on the first code line (e.g. /usr/src/sys/h/errno.h). With firefox all looks fine, but I'll try to make it render on all browers. With best regards, Walter -- Dr. Walter F.J. M?ller Mail: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de GSI, Abteilung KP3 Phone: +49-6159-71-2766 D-64291 Darmstadt FAX: +49-6159-71-3762 URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/ From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Mar 28 12:58:22 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:58:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue In-Reply-To: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070328185630.W15654@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, William Maddox wrote: > There are a pair of these drives on eBay, with 10 > hours > and a few minutes to go. The current high bidder is > a gold scrapper (jeepguymud), and he hacks up old > mainframes and sells gold parts on eBay. Anyone > in the Cincinatti area? That may well be the saddest thing I've heard in some time and almost brought a tear to my eye. What kind of beast is this 'jeepguymud'... If only they were in the UK. Andrew From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 28 13:36:49 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:36:49 -0400 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F36A1D5168436EDE67CA44D86D0@phx.gbl> References: <BAY107-F36A1D5168436EDE67CA44D86D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <146587FD-DD58-4385-BEA0-01E54CD3C455@neurotica.com> On Mar 28, 2007, at 6:17 AM, John S wrote: >> I've found references to the following classic magazines, and I >> would be willing to pay a small fee >> for photocopies or scans of the articles: > > Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read > only memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to > set data and address. The software to drive the programmer is > written in BASIC. > Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) > Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) I've done a quick scan of this article from the book (not the magazine) into a PDF file and put it up for download at the following URL. The file is about 17MB. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/Ciarcia_2708_programmer.pdf -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 14:08:25 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Silent 700) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:08:25 -0500 Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue In-Reply-To: <001001c7715c$6dd5da50$09a8df45@ics> References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001001c7715c$6dd5da50$09a8df45@ics> Message-ID: <51ea77730703281208o670a75caw5d775d894bd5e158@mail.gmail.com> On 3/28/07, George Wiegand <ics65 at sbcglobal.net> wrote: > I'm in Columbus, Ohio ~2-3 hours from Cincinnati. What did you have in mind? > I'm not personally interested in the units but I don't want them to be > scrapped either. By the way, are there any other known Ebay "Scrappers" to > be ware of? Aw man, that's sad. Pictures like these should be part of some of 'scared-straight' shock campaign to prevent old machines from going to disreputable 'collectors.' http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250098792167 -- Si.7k From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 28 15:23:34 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:23:34 +0000 Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <460960DB.3060700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <C2307F46.91CE%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 27/3/07 18:22, "Doc Shipley" <doc at mdrconsult.com> wrote: > I have an AS500/500 on the bench and a handful of 5V FPM DIMMs from a > PM8500 in the drawer. I'll pop the top off the Alpha later and compare. > If they're compatible, that'd be *way* too easy. OK, I have PROSIC in front of me and it says the memory is made up of 2 banks of (4x72) 8 byte DIMMS, I'm wondering if the reason people think it's different is because you need 4 DIMMs to make up each bank? The part numbers of MSP01-F* all resolve to AS500 memory, but the parts breakdown also mentions 54-24340-BA which is a single 16mb module. Therefore if you can get 4 matching 128mb (4x72) 8 byte DIMMs you should be able to make up a single MSP01-FE. I don't have an AS500 to test, but I'll also fire up the OARS Archive CD and if it's different I'll post its results. Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 28 14:28:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:28:09 -0700 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs In-Reply-To: <3DD3CD72-32A7-4971-BB1A-DA8E501BABA8@neurotica.com> References: <BAY107-F5CC0CAED13BB7C472C1A2D86E0@phx.gbl>, <3DD3CD72-32A7-4971-BB1A-DA8E501BABA8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <460A5F59.17523.615207B@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Mar 2007 at 18:22, Dave McGuire wrote: > It would be near-trivial to adapt the original design to be driven > by a microcontroller, by the way. As I recall, the programming algorithm was very simple and brute force (fixed number of hits to get a 0). IIRC, there were later programmers that applied a little intelligence to the operation. One could easily build a programmer with little more than a counter and a few gates and a control transistor for Vpp. The biggest annoyance it seems, to me is the need for several supply voltages in addition to Vpp. Cheers, Chuck From medavidson at mac.com Wed Mar 28 14:28:51 2007 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:28:51 -0700 Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> References: <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4DBACA0A-813D-4A7E-837E-C43C348439CB@mac.com> Jim--- On Mar 25, 2007, at 11:04 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I spent the weekend obsessing over what the fastest editor I could > find for a 4.77MHz 8088, DOS, CGA platform. The results, if anyone > is interested, are here: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/texteditors > > No doubt I will get some scorn for knocking Brief and other > venerable editors, but the truth is I have very specific needs: 1. > Instant screen response to user input, and 2. a functional undo. > That's it, really, and I was surprised how many text editors did > not fit the bill. Interesting post! Brings back a lot of memories... it is interesting to see how many editors from the days of yore are still sold and supported today (Vedit, Lugaru Epsilon, etc). A couple of points. Sprint from Borland was another one of the products they bought and then basically rendered unrecognizable. I believe it was originally "The Final Word" from Mark of the Unicorn, which I absolutely loved. Not really a "text editor", but more of halfway between a text editor and full word processor. Someone mentioned the Borland Editor Toolbox. I *loved* those products. Borland had an Editor Toolbox, Database Toolbox, Games Toolbox, etc. Those were lots of fun to play with. As for SlickEdit... yes, highly recommended. I remember when it was first released (text-only interface) and loving it. It was one of the few editors that ran on both DOS and OS/2, and took advantage of OS/2's features to make itself faster. Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 28 14:34:26 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <4609CDA1.4040008@oldskool.org> References: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> <4607626B.6030302@oldskool.org> <46080668.7020701@oldskool.org> <C3C4B506-C6E4-4239-8A59-E55337168280@neurotica.com> <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070327111506.012bd360@mail.30below.com> <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net> <4609CDA1.4040008@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070328122450.V36802@shell.lmi.net> > > did you know that Electric Pencil was available on PC? On Tue, 27 Mar 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > I did, and I've always wanted to try it, but I couldn't find a copy > anywhere. Being that it has its roots on, what, Apple II? I would > imagine it would be very fast indeed. You are probably thinking of "Easy Writer" by John ("Captain Crunch") Draper Electric Pencil was written by Michael Shrayer BEFORE CP/M was readily available. One of my inspirations for writing XenoCopy was seeing ads in the 1970s for a program to copy files from Electric Pencil diskettes to CP/M diskettes. It was later re-released for TRS-80. I don't know the details, but Harv Pennington (author of "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" and publisher of that series) was behind an IBM-PC release. When I was closing down, I had two shrink-wrapped copies, and a signed one. I think that Sellam got one, another went at VCF. I don't know where the other one is. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 28 14:10:02 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Speed of text editors on 808x platform In-Reply-To: <460A3819.5518.57BCF9F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46085046.12942.306D858@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070327135544.O80838@shell.lmi.net>, <4609CDA1.4040008@oldskool.org> <460A3819.5518.57BCF9F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703281509080.30579@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I thought EP was strictly an 8080-CP/M product. It wouldn't surprise > me if a 6502 version was eventually produced, but the only versions > I've ever seen have been Intel platform. Electric Pencil was the very first software I bought for my TRS-80 Model III (Z80). Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Mar 28 15:05:27 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:05:27 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer footage in "The Trap" In-Reply-To: <200703281421.l2SEK917065394@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703281421.l2SEK917065394@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <E2543A82-D007-410A-AF40-72ED2D5160F8@microspot.co.uk> > Message: 25 > Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:49:28 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > > How many different systems has any of the UK contingent been able to > identify on the BBC 2 Adam Curtis series "The Trap"? He certainly > seems to like his tape drives! Though I did not see it myself, I've been told there was a shot of the one inch version of the ICT 1300 series magnetic tapes about 25 minutes into the first episode. They were Ampex decks, either TM1 or TM2, I can't remember which. The chap who told me has it on VHS which I am going to digitise after I see him in July. Roger. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 15:51:09 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:51:09 -0500 Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue In-Reply-To: <20070328185630.W15654@plum.flirble.org> References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20070328185630.W15654@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <e1d20d630703281351y34ac8507x1362a5abf4398e01@mail.gmail.com> > That may well be the saddest thing I've heard in some time and almost > brought a tear to my eye. What kind of beast is this 'jeepguymud'... CRIPES... First off, if anyone is even a halfway serious IBM collector and doesn't have a 3420, you are clearly not expending any energy. Everytime I think that the world supply of 3420s is drying up, more appear. Second, if is very unwise to bad mouth a scrapper. If anyone STILL does not know why, go and read my various rants about it in the archives. And this time think and absorb what I wrote. Third, jeepguymud is not a bad fellow - we have dealt before. I suspect he is rather new to the scrap gold business, as many of his purchases lately seem extremely unwise. For example, that 3990 in Florida will probably yield $100 in scrap, but shipping and labor is going to kill him (I was quoted just over $520 to get the thing to New York). And then all that stuff located near Washington is really gold-poor. Fourth, jeepguymud is not the bad guy here - one of the sellers is. The guy just outside Washington with the 9370 system was going to sell it to me, just after his first try marketting the 2440 on Ebay. I even met his price for it all. -- Will From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Mar 28 15:53:45 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:53:45 -0500 Subject: Old UPSs Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070328154431.0d180100@localhost> I'm trying to get two old UPS units to work. They were made by Best Electric / Best Power Technologies and apparently, that firm (in Necedah WI) has changed hands at least twice. Entering www.bestpower.com into a browser gets you an immediate redirect to http://www.powerware.com/UPS/BestPower/Products.asp, an Eaton company, which knows nothing at all about these units. I've got a model ME2.1KVA unit that needs four 12V, 35Ah batteries. I think it works, I just can't afford the batteries. Best price I've seen is about $49. The UPS is huge-- about 18 inches front to back, and darn near two feet high. I also have a ME700VA unit that uses the same battery, just one of them. Both have serial ports and lots of dipswitches. Anyone know where to find a manual for these? TIA, Tom ----- 96. [Philosophy] "You are, of course, correct, and I disagree completely." mikeh at netcom.com (Michael F. Howard) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 28 16:35:48 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AlphaStation 200/250 and 255 - ebay observations In-Reply-To: <C2307F46.91CE%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> from "Adrian Graham" at Mar 28, 2007 08:23:34 PM Message-ID: <200703282135.l2SLZmoK013688@onyx.spiritone.com> > OK, I have PROSIC in front of me and it says the memory is made up of 2 > banks of (4x72) 8 byte DIMMS, I'm wondering if the reason people think it's > different is because you need 4 DIMMs to make up each bank? The part numbers > of MSP01-F* all resolve to AS500 memory, but the parts breakdown also > mentions 54-24340-BA which is a single 16mb module. Therefore if you can get > 4 matching 128mb (4x72) 8 byte DIMMs you should be able to make up a single > MSP01-FE. > > I don't have an AS500 to test, but I'll also fire up the OARS Archive CD and > if it's different I'll post its results. I suspect that I've been wrong that the 266/333Mhz models use totally different RAM than the 400/500Mhz models. However, I do know that the max memory is different between the two. I believe you are limited to 64Mb DIMMs in the 266/333Mhz models as they can only take 512Mb RAM, while the 400/500Mhz models can take 1Gb. Zane From doug at stillhq.com Wed Mar 28 16:44:00 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:44:00 +1000 Subject: Nicolet NICE Z80 Hardware emulator In-Reply-To: <200703281421.l2SEK916065394@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703281421.l2SEK916065394@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <460AE1A0.4020405@stillhq.com> Hi Guys n Gals, Just a quick second request, Does anybody have a manual - or even a quick reference sheet - for the Nicolet NICE Z80 Hardware pod released in about 1980-1981. I just received one, and there was no manual. I've figured out some of the commands, as there are only 26 letters in the alphabet, but a photocopy or scan of the book, or a quick summary from somebody else, would be invaluable. Take care, Doug From doug at stillhq.com Wed Mar 28 16:48:55 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:48:55 +1000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 43, Issue 85 In-Reply-To: <200703281421.l2SEK916065394@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703281421.l2SEK916065394@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <460AE2C7.3090604@stillhq.com> Subject: Re: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20070327233303.GA39659 at silme.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii John S wrote: > > As 2708s are obsolete few moern programmers support them, apart from a few > > that cost many $100s. So I thought why not try and build one? I've found > > references to the following classic magazines, and I would be willing to pay > > a small fee for photocopies or scans of the articles: > > > > Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read only > > memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to set data and > > address. The software to drive the programmer is written in BASIC. > > Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) > > Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) > I have a programmer designed by Steve Ciarcia from BYTE - It uses an 8051AH-Basic (The 8051 with basic embedded) as the controller - and still works a treat - to this day. - Standalone board, interface via serial. It was fun to see peoples faces when you shipped a ^C down the serial line, and dropped through to a READY prompt. I can find the doco for yo, but it is a high end solution to a simple problem. Alternately, I'm more than happy to read an eprom for you, and email contents - I'm in Oz though. Perhaps there is somebody in the US who could do the same. Doug From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 28 17:03:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:03:32 -0400 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs In-Reply-To: <460A5F59.17523.615207B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <BAY107-F5CC0CAED13BB7C472C1A2D86E0@phx.gbl>, <3DD3CD72-32A7-4971-BB1A-DA8E501BABA8@neurotica.com> <460A5F59.17523.615207B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8A70CD30-AE25-45DA-B0B6-B07DC3E2450F@neurotica.com> On Mar 28, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> It would be near-trivial to adapt the original design to be driven >> by a microcontroller, by the way. > > As I recall, the programming algorithm was very simple and brute > force (fixed number of hits to get a 0). IIRC, there were later > programmers that applied a little intelligence to the operation. Yup, it's not an intelligent algorithm. As I recall, this method was the more common at the time. But under the control of a processor, one could very easily do a high-speed intelligent algorithm with the same programmer hardware. > One could easily build a programmer with little more than a counter > and a few gates and a control transistor for Vpp. The biggest > annoyance it seems, to me is the need for several supply voltages in > addition to Vpp. Yes, that is a pain. I've recently "conquered" the MC34063 (meaning I now know enough about designing with it that I no longer pick bits of MOSFET out of my hair when I'm building prototypes), so now I can go back and revisit all those projects that I've wanted to build but avoided due to weird voltage requirements. Doing a 25V step-up converter for a 2708 programmer really isn't that difficult. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Mar 28 22:01:48 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:01:48 -0500 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <0JFK00GC8EQTGGG3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JFK00GC8EQTGGG3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <460B2C1C.8030004@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >A good substitute for RX50 is an RX33 (aka TEAC FD55GFR) or an FD55F >setup as non1.2mb. RX50 drives are actually two platters but one head >positioner and they are 96TPI like the mentioned FD55F or G. These work >fine with RQDX2/3 as a RX50 substitute. I have one configured that way. > > Jerome Fine replies: If you have a failed RX50, then I suggest that you take the case and put 2 * RX33 inside. You will probably want to attach the case to the RX33 to keep everything tight as well as attaching the black plastic sled to the bottom. It should then be extremely easy to add a second edge connector for the second RX33 drive a short distance in front of the edge connector for the first RX33 drive. Make the edge connector for both drives without any twists. A very short Y power cable then provides the power for both drives instead of just the first RX33. All of the connections and cabling fit VERY nicely in the space between the end of the RX33 drives and the rear of the case from the RX50 drive. Finally, you MUST also set the select for the 2nd RX33 since there were no twists on the cable for the edge connectors. I don't remember how to set the select for the second RX33, but it was not too difficult when I needed to figure it out. You then wind up with a very nice DUAL RX33 equivalent to the dual RX50 and looking almost the same until you look closely at the handles to lock the floppy into place. Plus, you don't have a bare RX33 drive. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Mar 28 22:02:08 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:02:08 -0500 Subject: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration In-Reply-To: <901922FE-CF42-4B12-BF42-EDC9A1F82E0D@xlisper.com> References: <827A8C87-5DA6-41EB-A1BF-27E484A607AB@xlisper.com> <460889A6.7010806@compsys.to> <901922FE-CF42-4B12-BF42-EDC9A1F82E0D@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <460B2C30.10303@compsys.to> > David Betz wrote: > [Snip] > > I have at least one working ESDI hard drive so that will be my boot > device. My real problem is removable media. Even though I have an > RQDX3 to control an RX50 drive, I don't have a working RX50 drive. > Same goes for the TK50. I have non-working versions of both drives > but nothing I can use to move software onto my system. Anyone have a > working RX50 and/or TK50 drive they can spare? Jerome Fine replies: See my other post about the dual RX33. You use a PC 5 1/4" HD floppy. Under RT-11, the RX33 can even do a LLF (Low Level Format) on the RX33. I nearly fainted the day I tried it for the first time using a real PDP-11/73 with an RQDX3 and RX33 drive AND running RT-11. In order to move software to the real PDP-11, the RX33 with 2400 blocks is about half the size of an RK05 drive. This is probably satisfactory for anything with RT-11. What use do you expect for your PDP-11? If you are running RT-11, ask as much as you like, but remember that I download only about once a week, so you will probably have to wait most of the time. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Mar 28 22:43:31 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:43:31 -0700 Subject: Fortran Versions (was JB Passes) References: <200703281420.l2SEK90v065394@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000d01c771b4$73a20b40$6601a8c0@downstairs2> > How did newer versions of the language handle deprecation of the sense > switch - error, warning, ignore? I was evaluating compilers for the IBM PC in late 1982 or early 1983 and tried the original Microsoft Fortran. The error message in the manual for the read sense switch statement was somethine like "you show me the switches and I will read them." We evaluated Fortran, Pascal and C and selected C for our project. We needed a language that would support VAX VMS, VAX Unix, and the IBM PC. Michael Holley. www.swtpc.com/mholley From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Mar 28 22:49:28 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:49:28 -0700 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs References: <200703281420.l2SEK90v065394@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001101c771b5$47504290$6601a8c0@downstairs2> > I am thinking of building a programmer for the 2708 EPROM, that can also > read an EPROM and dump it to a serial port. > Here are the schematics and software for a MC6800 based design from 1977. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MicroWorks/B09_Index.htm Michael Holley From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Mar 29 02:22:55 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 23:22:55 -0800 Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue In-Reply-To: <e1d20d630703281351y34ac8507x1362a5abf4398e01@mail.gmail.com> References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20070328185630.W15654@plum.flirble.org> <e1d20d630703281351y34ac8507x1362a5abf4398e01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <460B694F.706@msm.umr.edu> William Donzelli wrote: >> That may well be the saddest thing I've heard in some time and almost >> brought a tear to my eye. What kind of beast is this 'jeepguymud'... > > <snip> I educated a scrapper, and bought a data center from him as a result about 15 years ago. The sad fact is that there is no where near enough of us to soak up all the old mainframe gear out there, and there is no way I could think to take all the equipment that has to go away from business operations and try to offer an alternative, so that is just the fact of life. There are not many functional 3420s, and these are pretty sad. I had 8 of them, and I had an IBM CE tell me that I'd have the most headaches with them of all the gear I collected. I sold the pile I had, and I don't know if they have gotten them going, but I suspect they will have to either have a lot of luck and patience, or a retired IBMer to help, or they will just shred a lot of tape. Remember they can read forward at 200ips, and rewind at an incredible rate. They have very large DC motors which if off a tiny amount will cause real bad things to happen to your tape. I have drifted off my topic here, but the bottom line is these were nice for parts as the seller said, but they were no prize. I would not cry a lot once one of these or the DASD got this damaged to see it get ground up, as parts from these would do more harm than good in most cases Jim From jwest at ezwind.net Thu Mar 29 14:04:02 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:04:02 -0500 Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness Message-ID: <002701c77235$06a70230$6a00a8c0@BILLING> I've been looking at various documentation and have come up lacking in understanding. Can some one clue me in on the source, behaviour, and routing of the ACLO DCLO signals on the 11/45 - with expansion boxes? In my digging in the documentation I seem to be finding contradictions between various printed sources and advice from people as well. Likely they are all right and I just don't "get it". >From what I can gather, it appears that ACLO originates in the H742 power supply. Actually, it appears that both the upper and lower H742's produce ACLO and DCLO. I think Tony was saying that ACLO and DCLO on the lower H742 shouldn't be used because they are referenced to -15v instead of ground. But from what I can gather, the only signals on the lower H742 which should not be used because of the 15v to ground change, are LTC and +8v. The lower H742 produces both ACLO and DCLO, and does route them out for use in several places. It appears that ACLO originates only in the power supply, and both the cpu and cards on the unibus monitor it to know if "death is coming". I would imagine that the cpu uses it to trap to a powerfail routine, and peripheral interfaces use it to do things like an emergency head unload on a disc drive, etc. So, what about when the unibus has been extended into an expansion box like the KB11-F with a DD11-DK, which has it's own supplies and thus it's own ACLO? Is the ACLO failure in the external expansion box given to the cpu chassis box and vice versa or are they entirely separate? DCLO also confuses me. Some things I read (and advice from some people) indicate it originates in the power supplies, and other devices only monitor that signal. However, the unibus interfacing manual states clearly that ANY device on the unibus can assert the DCLO signal. This would mean not just the power supply, but a controller like an RX02 interface (M8256) could tell the rest of the system "hey, I'm losing power". This gets back to my "RL02 faulting upon spinup only if the RX02 is turned on" problem. Tony suggested checking ACLO and/or DCLO. Note that my RL02 and RX02 controllers are in the expansion BA11-K, not the cpu box. To do this, I need to know exactly what pins to look at on the backplane. I figured I could track this down myself, but in going through all the documentation I am left very unclear as to exactly where the ACLO & DCLO signals go after they hit the power distribution board (J2-J10 I think it is) at the top of the system unit backplane. Since it is a unibus signal, I would think it would enter the DD11-K in the expansion box at the "unibus in" (slot 1AB). I would also guess that since (apparently) SPC cards are capable of monitoring ACLO/DCLO (and perhaps asserting DCLO? See above?) that those two signals would be wire wrapped from somewhere on 1AB to each of the SPC slots (C-F). Some documentation showed ACLO and DCLO on row C (some docs show only one of those is present) of an SPC slot. If that is the case, should I not see some wire wrapping on my DD11-K that shows ACLO/DCLO (supposedly on B01F1 and B01F2) getting wrapped to somewhere on row C, and daisychaining to all the SPC slots on that same pin so they can monitor it? I do not see that wire wrap on the DD11-DK. So someone could just tell me what pin to check, to see if ACLO or DCLO is acting funny around my RX02 controller. But I'd really prefer to understand the bigger picture with it as to all places that originate these two signals, what devices can assert them, and most importantly, how those two signals are routed exactly from power supply to the cpu, to the expansion box (which has it's own ACLO/DCLO), all the way to the final M9312. Then not only could I take the measurement, but better understand what I'm seeing. Any education is most appreciated! Jay West From allain at panix.com Thu Mar 29 11:54:46 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:54:46 -0500 Subject: General rescue (was: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape ... References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20070328185630.W15654@plum.flirble.org><e1d20d630703281351y34ac8507x1362a5abf4398e01@mail.gmail.com> <460B694F.706@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <009001c77222$fa2a9e20$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I educated a scrapper, and bought a data center from him as a > result about 15 years ago. The sad fact is that there is no where > near enough of us to soak up all the old mainframe gear out > there, and there is no way I could think to take all the equipment > that has to go away from business operations and try to offer > an alternative, so that is just the fact of life. Just remember to keep posting these opportunities to the list when they happen, so the list members can make that evaluation (no where near enough takers) for themselves. I think we hear this story, 'there Was no way I could take it all myself' a bit too often. We should instead be notified when the "was" is an "is". When this Does happen, I thank those posters... keep up the good work. John A. more DEC than IBM, but still... From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Mar 29 10:26:16 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:26:16 -0400 Subject: rs232 capture? Message-ID: <200703291526.l2TFQH7G003497@mwave.heeltoe.com> anyone know of a simple RS-232 capture program for Windows 95 which will capture from 2 serial ports and give a timestamp which is reasonable, like 10ms accuracy? (I might be dreaming, I realize) I'd use DOS, but my 2nd serial port is PCMCIA. Alternately, if such a thing exists for Windows XP running on a modern PC with USB serial ports, I'm open to that also. I need to do some field data collection and I figured someone here might know of a simple program. thanks! -brad From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 29 11:17:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:17:03 -0700 Subject: Old UPSs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070328154431.0d180100@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070328154431.0d180100@localhost> Message-ID: <460B840F.30482.A8C825E@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Mar 2007 at 15:53, Tom Peters wrote: > I've got a model ME2.1KVA unit that needs four 12V, 35Ah batteries. I think > it works, I just can't afford the batteries. Best price I've seen is about > $49. The UPS is huge-- about 18 inches front to back, and darn near two > feet high. I've got a 1.4KVA Elgar supply that I've had for a very long time. Same story--it takes 48v of lead-acid gel cells. I got around that by constructing a separate box (out of wood) that holds 4 12v garden tractor batteries ($19 the each at the local big box--also keeps the fumes out of the electronics). If you wanted to splurge, you could opt for deep-cycle marine batteries, but we don't get long power failures very often, since the co-op moved the substation about a half-mile up the road. I check the water every time I have my teeth cleaned (6 month intervals) and replace them every 5 years or so. The big UPSes are very reliable in my experience--not like some of the consumer items. Cheers, Chuck > > I also have a ME700VA unit that uses the same battery, just one of them. > > Both have serial ports and lots of dipswitches. > > Anyone know where to find a manual for these? > > > TIA, > > Tom > > > > > > ----- > 96. [Philosophy] "You are, of course, correct, and I disagree completely." > mikeh at netcom.com (Michael F. Howard) > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 > > > From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Mar 29 13:44:52 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:44:52 -0400 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs Message-ID: <01C77210.ED942260@MSE_D03> -----------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:48:55 +1000 From: Doug Jackson <doug at stillhq.com> Subject: Re: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs John S wrote: > > As 2708s are obsolete few moern programmers support them, apart from a few > > that cost many $100s. So I thought why not try and build one? I've found > > references to the following classic magazines, and I would be willing to pay > > a small fee for photocopies or scans of the articles: > > > > Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read only > > memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to set data and > > address. The software to drive the programmer is written in BASIC. > > Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) > > Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) > I have a programmer designed by Steve Ciarcia from BYTE - It uses an 8051AH-Basic (The 8051 with basic embedded) as the controller - and still works a treat - to this day. - Standalone board, interface via serial. It was fun to see peoples faces when you shipped a ^C down the serial line, and dropped through to a READY prompt. I can find the doco for yo, but it is a high end solution to a simple problem. Alternately, I'm more than happy to read an eprom for you, and email contents - I'm in Oz though. Perhaps there is somebody in the US who could do the same. Doug -----------------Reply: I have one of those as well; alas, it does NOT do 2708's. To the OP: I can scan the KB article for you, but the 2708 programmer is intended to work with a Motorola MEK6800-D2, and consists of nothing more than 3 transistors to switch the 27V (and a couple of switches and a socket for the EPROM). It's all done in software. mike From steve at radiorobots.com Thu Mar 29 14:35:52 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:35:52 -0500 Subject: Early WLAN gear Message-ID: <460C1518.5040706@radiorobots.com> Built a number of wireless data apps in the 80s and 90s. Interested in finding cards, code, APs and anything related from mfgs like Moto, Windwave, WiLAN, NCR, Proxim, Telxon etc. Any responses appreciated. Thanks, Steve From ygehrich at yahoo.com Thu Mar 29 12:01:13 2007 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:01:13 -0400 Subject: Sytos Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329125931.0470b748@ehrich.com> There is a copy of Sytos available on epay <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120101504185&ssPageName=ADME:L:DSS:US:11>SYTOS Plus Backup WIN DOS Netware from Sytron <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120101504185&ssPageName=ADME:L:DSS:US:11>NEW From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Mar 29 14:41:49 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:41:49 -0400 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs Message-ID: <01C77218.C557DDC0@MSE_D03> ------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:49:28 -0700 From: "Michael Holley" <swtpc6800 at comcast.net> Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs > I am thinking of building a programmer for the 2708 EPROM, that can also > read an EPROM and dump it to a serial port. > Here are the schematics and software for a MC6800 based design from 1977. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MicroWorks/B09_Index.htm Michael Holley -----------Reply: Michael: FYI, the same issue of KB (2/80) also contains instructions for mods to the SWTP MP-R programmer to burn 2708's. And also an article about adding an amp chip to make the AC-30 more reliable. You might want to add them to your excellent SWTP site. mike From charlesmorris at hughes.net Thu Mar 29 14:42:59 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:42:59 -0500 Subject: Can I run ADVENT on my PDP-11/23+ ? Message-ID: <ib5o03hejoncd8o53pris595u3rsurlhbd@4ax.com> I have a rack-mounted 11/23+ (IIRC, 4 Mword RAM) with one RL02 drive, and a KSR43 TTY that is sitting and just gathering dust. I'd like to run ADVENT on it. Is there a version for this CPU? If so, could someone make me a bootable RL02 pack? I could either mail one of mine, or just purchase the pack. Will pay for your time, pack, postage, etc. Please let me know. thanks Charles From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 14:52:35 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:52:35 -0500 Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue In-Reply-To: <460B694F.706@msm.umr.edu> References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20070328185630.W15654@plum.flirble.org> <e1d20d630703281351y34ac8507x1362a5abf4398e01@mail.gmail.com> <460B694F.706@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <e1d20d630703291252q72eef8baufd890866264d7ec5@mail.gmail.com> > William Donzelli wrote: > > >> That may well be the saddest thing I've heard in some time and almost > >> brought a tear to my eye. What kind of beast is this 'jeepguymud'... > > > > <snip> I did not write this. Please quote me properly. -- Will From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 29 14:58:39 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:58:39 -0400 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs In-Reply-To: <01C77218.C557DDC0@MSE_D03> References: <01C77218.C557DDC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <8305068C-6996-4DE5-9B7C-914A5FAD71B2@xlisper.com> > Here are the schematics and software for a MC6800 based design from > 1977. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MicroWorks/B09_Index.htm I have that board! Unfortunately, my SWTPc 6800 isn't working that well so I can't really power it up to see if it works. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Mar 29 15:10:37 2007 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:10:37 +0100 Subject: Can I run ADVENT on my PDP-11/23+ ? References: <ib5o03hejoncd8o53pris595u3rsurlhbd@4ax.com> Message-ID: <005201c7723e$51270900$0600a8c0@P2Desktop> From: "Charles" <charlesmorris at hughes.net> > I have a rack-mounted 11/23+ (IIRC, 4 Mword RAM) with one RL02 > drive, and a KSR43 TTY that is sitting and just gathering dust. > > I'd like to run ADVENT on it. Is there a version for this CPU? > > If so, could someone make me a bootable RL02 pack? I could either > mail one of mine, or just purchase the pack. Will pay for your > time, pack, postage, etc. Please let me know. > > thanks > Charles > Advent (along with pacman and space invaders) runs fine on my 11/23+, under RT11. You will need to load the correct monitor for RT11 (XM?), as Advent is rather memory hungry. Jim (whose PDP and VAX stuff is currently all in storage, so I can't check the details) From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Mar 29 15:15:23 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:15:23 -0700 Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness In-Reply-To: <002701c77235$06a70230$6a00a8c0@BILLING> References: <002701c77235$06a70230$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <460C1E5B.5060605@mindspring.com> Jay West wrote: > Some documentation showed ACLO and DCLO on row C (some docs show only > one of those is present) of an SPC slot. If that is the case, should I > not see some wire wrapping on my DD11-K that shows ACLO/DCLO > (supposedly on B01F1 and B01F2) getting wrapped to somewhere on row C, > and daisychaining to all the SPC slots on that same pin so they can > monitor it? I do not see that wire wrap on the DD11-DK. > > So someone could just tell me what pin to check, to see if ACLO or > DCLO is acting funny around my RX02 controller. But I'd really prefer > to understand the bigger picture with it as to all places that > originate these two signals, what devices can assert them, and most > importantly, how those two signals are routed exactly from power > supply to the cpu, to the expansion box (which has it's own > ACLO/DCLO), all the way to the final M9312. Then not only could I take > the measurement, but better understand what I'm seeing. > ACLO_L appears on SPC slot CV1, and standard/MUD slots pin BF1 DCLO_L appears on SPC slot CN1, and standard/MUD slots pin BF2 Since ACLO/DCLO are on the standard unibus in/out AB connections, they will propagate between boxes. They are both open collector, so can be asserted by any card at any point (altho most cards will treat them as read-only). You should be able to monitor them on your M9312 on pins BF1 and BF2. IIRC ACLO and DCLO should work such that if any box/card sees a power fail condition, it is essentially broadcast to the whole system over the UNIBUS. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 29 15:31:49 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:31:49 -0700 Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness In-Reply-To: <002701c77235$06a70230$6a00a8c0@BILLING> References: <002701c77235$06a70230$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <460C2235.1010208@shiresoft.com> Jay West wrote: > > It appears that ACLO originates only in the power supply, and both the > cpu and cards on the unibus monitor it to know if "death is coming". I > would imagine that the cpu uses it to trap to a powerfail routine, and > peripheral interfaces use it to do things like an emergency head > unload on a disc drive, etc. So, what about when the unibus has been > extended into an expansion box like the KB11-F with a DD11-DK, which > has it's own supplies and thus it's own ACLO? Is the ACLO failure in > the external expansion box given to the cpu chassis box and vice versa > or are they entirely separate? If the expansion box's power fails, it should assert ACLO followed by DCLO. This will cause the entire system to reset. > > DCLO also confuses me. Some things I read (and advice from some > people) indicate it originates in the power supplies, and other > devices only monitor that signal. However, the unibus interfacing > manual states clearly that ANY device on the unibus can assert the > DCLO signal. This would mean not just the power supply, but a > controller like an RX02 interface (M8256) could tell the rest of the > system "hey, I'm losing power". That would be bad in general IMHO. When you have a large system configuration it is not unusual to have some peripherals powered off. > > This gets back to my "RL02 faulting upon spinup only if the RX02 is > turned on" problem. Tony suggested checking ACLO and/or DCLO. Note > that my RL02 and RX02 controllers are in the expansion BA11-K, not the > cpu box. To do this, I need to know exactly what pins to look at on > the backplane. I figured I could track this down myself, but in going > through all the documentation I am left very unclear as to exactly > where the ACLO & DCLO signals go after they hit the power distribution > board (J2-J10 I think it is) at the top of the system unit backplane. > Since it is a unibus signal, I would think it would enter the DD11-K > in the expansion box at the "unibus in" (slot 1AB). I would also guess > that since (apparently) SPC cards are capable of monitoring ACLO/DCLO > (and perhaps asserting DCLO? See above?) that those two signals would > be wire wrapped from somewhere on 1AB to each of the SPC slots (C-F). > > Some documentation showed ACLO and DCLO on row C (some docs show only > one of those is present) of an SPC slot. If that is the case, should I > not see some wire wrapping on my DD11-K that shows ACLO/DCLO > (supposedly on B01F1 and B01F2) getting wrapped to somewhere on row C, > and daisychaining to all the SPC slots on that same pin so they can > monitor it? I do not see that wire wrap on the DD11-DK. > > So someone could just tell me what pin to check, to see if ACLO or > DCLO is acting funny around my RX02 controller. But I'd really prefer > to understand the bigger picture with it as to all places that > originate these two signals, what devices can assert them, and most > importantly, how those two signals are routed exactly from power > supply to the cpu, to the expansion box (which has it's own > ACLO/DCLO), all the way to the final M9312. Then not only could I take > the measurement, but better understand what I'm seeing. I'm only half joking, but these are exactly the issues that caused me to design/build the UA11! It got to be too hard to keep counting pins (and getting them wrong). It's also a lot easier to see *all* of the signals on the LEDs at once (ACLO & DCLO are there BTW). > > Any education is most appreciated! > > Jay West > > > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 29 15:50:02 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:50:02 -0600 Subject: "Classic Operating Systems" (2001, Hardback) Message-ID: <E1HX1ZP-0008NV-00@xmission.xmission.com> Book description: <http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Operating-Systems-Brinch-Hansen/dp/038795113X/ref=sr_1_1/002-3975000-3971257?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175201296&sr=1-1> Buy it new for $20: <http://www.hamiltonbook.com/hamiltonbook.filereader?460c1479000fdacd271d424d36d60639+EN/products/612139X> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 15:40:22 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:40:22 -0500 Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue In-Reply-To: <460B694F.706@msm.umr.edu> References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20070328185630.W15654@plum.flirble.org> <e1d20d630703281351y34ac8507x1362a5abf4398e01@mail.gmail.com> <460B694F.706@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <e1d20d630703291340q7cb19999uc5f8c6a408fb2336@mail.gmail.com> > The sad fact is that there is no where > near enough of us to soak up all the old mainframe gear out > there, and there is no way I could think to take all the equipment > that has to go away from business operations and try to offer > an alternative, so that is just the fact of life. I do not think it is sad. The scrappers do play an important role in the world, so if a large computer gets scrapped, it is actually a good thing. They do a good job recycling the materials, and way down the line we see this at the checkout line in the supermarket. About the only time I would get sad is when the machine getting scrapped is relatively important historically and rare. If a 3420 gets scrapped - big deal. Same with 99.9 percent of the machines that are coming out of service - DECs, Suns, IBMs, DGs, HPs, etc.. Even if a PDP-11 gets scrapped - big deal. Except for a few models, there are oodles of the things in collectors hands. > There are not many functional 3420s, and these are pretty sad. 3420s were always a bit demanding - and this gets magnified when their service life is examined. Most 3420s were running all day, every day, for many years. They also lasted far longer than IBM ever envisioned - 30 plus years. The drives we see on minicomputers never got the workout that 3420s received over thier lifetimes - not even close. > I have drifted off my topic here, but the bottom line is > these were nice for parts as the seller said, but they were > no prize. I would not cry a lot once one of these or the > DASD got this damaged to see it get ground up, as parts > from these would do more harm than good in most cases DASDs are a bit different - they are far more rare. The DASDs (hard disk in IBMspeak) available in the 1970s (3330, 3340) are extremely rare, and even those in the 80s are nearly as rare (3370, 3380). -- Will From martin at biblewitness.org.uk Thu Mar 29 15:43:57 2007 From: martin at biblewitness.org.uk (biblewitness.org.uk) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:43:57 +0100 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller Message-ID: <001a01c77242$fda97e20$9eb21052@MND> jd wrote: >biblewitness.org.uk wrote: >> jd wrote: >> >>> HP's number for this OEM board--by MSC/Xebec is 88134-69910, 09135-69515, >>> and/or 09135-69501. I have no idea which number belongs to mine. >>> >> >> FYI: These are all used on 5Mb drives with two sets of firmware classified as follows: >> 88134-69910 'L' Code - HP250 Model 20 >> 09135-69515 'D' Code - 4-Volume 5-Mb (emulates HP 9895A drives - I use this for my 9845B and HP-85 & 87 systems) >> 09135-69501 'L' Code - single volume 5-Mb. >> >> Martin >> Web: http://www.biblewitness.org/technical >> >> >Thanks. That's useful. > >Now if only I knew what the Xebec part numbers were for the HP >models/firmware... > >I have four different sets of Xebec firmware. Two of the sets have the >"D" or "L" formats, selectable by jumper. >One of those two also works with 10Mb disks but will only format the >10Mb as 5Mb or the 4-volume "D" format. AFAIK HP only used the above three (MSC) controllers (for ST506), after which they designed and manufactured their own controller for their 5 (ST406), 10 (ST412) and 15Mbyte (ST419) Winchesters. For what it's worth, the HP controller number for their 913xB drives is 09133-69514. For 10MByte: J6 Pins jumpers (10M, One Volume and 4XX) are all installed. I've no info on The 15Mbyte configuration. Hope that helps, Martin From shumaker at att.net Thu Mar 29 15:28:27 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:28:27 -0800 Subject: rs232 capture? In-Reply-To: <200703291526.l2TFQH7G003497@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703291526.l2TFQH7G003497@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070329122610.03373ec0@att.net> food for thought... DOS 6.22 with "card services" running will recognize and use pcmcia.. Card Services was generally hardware/vendor specific though so you'd need to find the right one. s shumaker At 07:26 AM 3/29/2007, you wrote: >anyone know of a simple RS-232 capture program for Windows 95 which >will capture from 2 serial ports and give a timestamp which is >reasonable, like 10ms accuracy? > >(I might be dreaming, I realize) > >I'd use DOS, but my 2nd serial port is PCMCIA. > >Alternately, if such a thing exists for Windows XP running on a modern >PC with USB serial ports, I'm open to that also. > >I need to do some field data collection and I figured someone here might >know of a simple program. > >thanks! > >-brad From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Mar 29 17:07:58 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:07:58 +0000 Subject: Can I run ADVENT on my PDP-11/23+ ? In-Reply-To: <005201c7723e$51270900$0600a8c0@P2Desktop> Message-ID: <C231E93E.9271%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 29/3/07 20:10, "Jim Beacon" <jim at g1jbg.co.uk> wrote: > Advent (along with pacman and space invaders) runs fine on my 11/23+, under > RT11. You will need to load the correct monitor for RT11 (XM?), as Advent is > rather memory hungry. I used to run all of those back in the day, on a micro 11/23 under RT11XM. I've still got the RL02s somewhere but I won't have access to them for a few weeks. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 29 17:01:31 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:01:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness In-Reply-To: <002701c77235$06a70230$6a00a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Mar 29, 7 02:04:02 pm Message-ID: <m1HX2gc-000J15C@p850ug1> > > I've been looking at various documentation and have come up lacking in > understanding. I'm going from memory here, so be careful... > > Can some one clue me in on the source, behaviour, and routing of the ACLO > DCLO signals on the 11/45 - with expansion boxes? In my digging in the > documentation I seem to be finding contradictions between various printed > sources and advice from people as well. Likely they are all right and I just > don't "get it". What you have to realise first is that, like most Unibus signals (because that's what they are, they are carried on the Unibus cables), ACLO and DCLO are open-collector driven. They're pulled high (to +5V) by resistors on the bus terminator cards, and can be pulled low at any point, by any device. > >From what I can gather, it appears that ACLO originates in the H742 power > supply. Actually, it appears that both the upper and lower H742's produce COnvnetionally, it's the power supply(s) that drive ACLO and DCLO, since they're the units that can detect a loss of power, But there's nothing in the hardware that requires this. > ACLO and DCLO. I think Tony was saying that ACLO and DCLO on the lower H742 > shouldn't be used because they are referenced to -15v instead of ground. But Since the 'gorund' line of the bottm H742 is actually the system -15V line, I think all status signals on the lower H742 are references to the -15V line. Are you sure that ACLO and DCLO on this supply go anywhere else. As I said, I'm working from memory, I guess I'd better check the prints. > from what I can gather, the only signals on the lower H742 which should not > be used because of the 15v to ground change, are LTC and +8v. The lower H742 > produces both ACLO and DCLO, and does route them out for use in several > places. > > It appears that ACLO originates only in the power supply, and both the cpu > and cards on the unibus monitor it to know if "death is coming". I would Yes, any device can monitor either or both lines. > imagine that the cpu uses it to trap to a powerfail routine, and peripheral > interfaces use it to do things like an emergency head unload on a disc > drive, etc. So, what about when the unibus has been extended into an Normally disk drives check their own internal power supplies for this, since it's possible some idiot will unplug the disk drive from the mains and leave the CPU powered up. > expansion box like the KB11-F with a DD11-DK, which has it's own supplies > and thus it's own ACLO? Is the ACLO failure in the external expansion box > given to the cpu chassis box and vice versa or are they entirely separate? No, they're all interconnected over the Unibus. A power failure anywhere will asserrt ACLO, etc. > > DCLO also confuses me. Some things I read (and advice from some people) > indicate it originates in the power supplies, and other devices only monitor > that signal. However, the unibus interfacing manual states clearly that ANY > device on the unibus can assert the DCLO signal. This would mean not just Correct. IIRC One of the later interfaces (DEUNA?) actually asserts one of the power fail signals to hold the CPU while it does a some kind of bootstrap operation. > the power supply, but a controller like an RX02 interface (M8256) could tell > the rest of the system "hey, I'm losing power". It could. I am not sure it does. Again one of us will have to check the prints to see if this card can drive the ASLO or DCLO signals. > > This gets back to my "RL02 faulting upon spinup only if the RX02 is turned > on" problem. Tony suggested checking ACLO and/or DCLO. Note that my RL02 and > RX02 controllers are in the expansion BA11-K, not the cpu box. To do this, I > need to know exactly what pins to look at on the backplane. I figured I > could track this down myself, but in going through all the documentation I > am left very unclear as to exactly where the ACLO & DCLO signals go after > they hit the power distribution board (J2-J10 I think it is) at the top of > the system unit backplane. Since it is a unibus signal, I would think it > would enter the DD11-K in the expansion box at the "unibus in" (slot 1AB). I It does. It's onm the Unibus I/O connectors. It's also on the 6 pin connectors between the backplane and the pwoer distribution board -- that's how the signal gets from the PSU onto the Unibus. > would also guess that since (apparently) SPC cards are capable of monitoring > ACLO/DCLO (and perhaps asserting DCLO? See above?) that those two signals > would be wire wrapped from somewhere on 1AB to each of the SPC slots (C-F). And it's there too. Doesn't the interfacing handbook give a Unibus pinout? > > Some documentation showed ACLO and DCLO on row C (some docs show only one of > those is present) of an SPC slot. If that is the case, should I not see some > wire wrapping on my DD11-K that shows ACLO/DCLO (supposedly on B01F1 and > B01F2) getting wrapped to somewhere on row C, and daisychaining to all the > SPC slots on that same pin so they can monitor it? I do not see that wire > wrap on the DD11-DK. It might be carried on a PCB trace. It's probably safest to trace it with an ohmmeter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 29 16:41:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:41:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fortran Versions (was JB Passes) In-Reply-To: <000d01c771b4$73a20b40$6601a8c0@downstairs2> from "Michael Holley" at Mar 28, 7 08:43:31 pm Message-ID: <m1HX2Nb-000J0gC@p850ug1> > I was evaluating compilers for the IBM PC in late 1982 or early 1983 and > tried the original Microsoft Fortran. The error message in the manual for > the read sense switch statement was somethine like "you show me the switches > and I will read them." Games port joystick button inputs, printer status inputs, an input port mapped into the user area, get the idea? :-) -tony From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Mar 29 17:33:23 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:33:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF Southwest? Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291432040.5578@vintagetech.com> I'm considering the launching of a VCF Southwest event, but I'd need a local coordinator in that region to help with the planning and such. The ideal location for the event would be Austin. Is anyone interested in being the VCF Southwest regional coordinator? If so, please contact me directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Mar 29 18:32:01 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:32:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF Southwest: who would come? Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291529260.1258@vintagetech.com> As a follow-on to my previous request for a VCF Southwest coordinator, I'd also be interested in hearing from those that would really like to have such an event and would make an effort to come. I imagine the region it would cover would be the traditional southwest states as well as areas as far east as Alabama as well as north of Texas. Please feel free to e-mail me directly or simply reply here. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 29 17:40:21 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:40:21 -0500 Subject: Old UPSs In-Reply-To: <460B840F.30482.A8C825E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070328154431.0d180100@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070328154431.0d180100@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070329173720.0c6ba918@localhost> Hmmm... That's a great idea. Hopefully, the charging circuit works on tractor batteries as well as the pricey SLA's specified. And Mark G had the idea of looking for online manuals via archive.org, also an excellent suggestion. Unfortunately, the index / top layer pages seem to be in the archive, but little else. So far, no manuals. Thanks, to both you guys. -T At 09:17 AM 3/29/2007 -0700, you wrote: >On 28 Mar 2007 at 15:53, Tom Peters wrote: > > > I've got a model ME2.1KVA unit that needs four 12V, 35Ah batteries. I > think > > it works, I just can't afford the batteries. Best price I've seen is about > > $49. The UPS is huge-- about 18 inches front to back, and darn near two > > feet high. > >I've got a 1.4KVA Elgar supply that I've had for a very long time. >Same story--it takes 48v of lead-acid gel cells. I got around that >by constructing a separate box (out of wood) that holds 4 12v garden >tractor batteries ($19 the each at the local big box--also keeps the >fumes out of the electronics). If you wanted to splurge, you could >opt for deep-cycle marine batteries, but we don't get long power >failures very often, since the co-op moved the substation about a >half-mile up the road. > >I check the water every time I have my teeth cleaned (6 month >intervals) and replace them every 5 years or so. The big UPSes are >very reliable in my experience--not like some of the consumer items. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also have a ME700VA unit that uses the same battery, just one of them. > > > > Both have serial ports and lots of dipswitches. > > > > Anyone know where to find a manual for these? > > > > > > TIA, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > 96. [Philosophy] "You are, of course, correct, and I disagree completely." > > mikeh at netcom.com (Michael F. Howard) > > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) > > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters > > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc > > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User > 385531 > > > > > > ----- 98. [Philosophy] REPORTER: Mr. Gandhi, what do you think about Western Civilization? GANDHI: I think it would be a good idea. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 29 18:05:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:05:46 -0400 Subject: Sytos In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329125931.0470b748@ehrich.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329125931.0470b748@ehrich.com> Message-ID: <0DC4D2F1-5583-4535-9C86-07D517EB1BD1@neurotica.com> On Mar 29, 2007, at 1:01 PM, Gene Ehrich wrote: > There is a copy of Sytos available on epay > > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&item=120101504185&ssPageName=ADME:L:DSS:US:11>SYTOS Plus > Backup WIN DOS Netware from Sytron <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ > eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120101504185&ssPageName=ADME:L:DSS:US: > 11>NEW Oh wow, weird coincidence. I just found my original set of Sytos floppies in a long-forgotten box last night. It is a very old DOS release. It also contained copies of SmarTerm-240 and -320 for DOS! 8-) Let me know if anyone needs any of this stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 29 21:33:34 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:33:34 -0500 Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness References: <m1HX2gc-000J15C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <001801c77273$d0ec6fb0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... > What you have to realise first is that, like most Unibus signals (because > that's what they are, they are carried on the Unibus cables), ACLO and > DCLO are open-collector driven. They're pulled high (to +5V) by resistors > on the bus terminator cards, and can be pulled low at any point, by any > device. I was thinking that open collector signal levels were low and float, not low and hi. From my testing, you're obviously right though, see below. I guess the pullups are what take the float to hi? > Are you sure that ACLO and DCLO on this supply go anywhere > else. As I said, I'm working from memory, I guess I'd better check the > prints. I could be reading the power system diagrams wrong. But...it seems to me if I look at DCLO for example on the lower H742 regulator, P22-9 (DCLO2) is sent out to P7-4. This is wired to system backplane pin B28F2 (last slot, unibus out). P22-12 (DCLOX) is sent out to P4-3, which is wired to B16U2 (first slot of the MOS/Bipolar memory I think). I seem to remember reading something about the memory being on a unibus B and the cpu on unibus A, unless the two are jumpered together. Is it possible one supply provides DCLO on one bus and the other supply gives DCLO on the other bus? All this same discussion appears to apply to ACLO as well, just different pins. > And it's there too. Doesn't the interfacing handbook give a Unibus pinout? Yes, but I didn't see the wirewrap.... see below.... > It might be carried on a PCB trace. It's probably safest to trace it with > an ohmmeter. Bingo. The "missing" wirewraps are PCB traces. I assumed (badly) that only power was carried on traces on the DD11-K. I was obviously quite wrong. An ohmmeter showed my folly quite clearly. I got +5v & GND for my logic probe from CA2 & CC2 and powered up just the BA11K. BF1 & BF2 both showed low as I'd expect (since the cpu was powered off). This was a sanity check on my part to make sure AC/DCLO were pulled low. I powered up everything and BF1 & BF2 went hi. I hit load on the RL02 and the drive started to spin up. At just the time I'd expect the heads to load, the fault lite came on. BF1 & 2 were still hi. If the RX02 is powered off, the drive will not fault, it will spin up fine. Also, if the RX02 is off and everything else on, the drive loads fine and boots RT11. The moment I plug in the power for the RX02 the RL02 immediately faults (but the cpu keeps on running right where it was). One thing I need to check, I am not positive (because it's all rather loud) that when the RL02 faults that it spins down the drive. I don't recall hearing the noticeable decrease in volume. I would have thought it would spin down upon any fault. Maybe it is and i just didn't hear it. I can start going through the prints on the RL02 as Tony suggested, looking at all the signals that can trip the fault light. Is that the right approach? I mean, the problem obviously isn't in the RL02 or controller - as they work flawlessly if the RX02 is turned off. This would make me think the problem is more likely something about the RL02 or M8256. At least I'm learning a lot :) Jay From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Mar 29 18:46:07 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:46:07 -0500 Subject: VCF Southwest? References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291432040.5578@vintagetech.com> Message-ID: <008101c7725c$72d18580$09406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" <sellam at vintagetech.com> To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: VCF Southwest? > > I'm considering the launching of a VCF Southwest event, but I'd need a > local coordinator in that region to help with the planning and such. > > The ideal location for the event would be Austin. > > Is anyone interested in being the VCF Southwest regional coordinator? If > so, please contact me directly. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival I would like to help even if I live in Houston, what do need? Do you have a updated plan on running VCF? John Keys From feedle at feedle.net Thu Mar 29 18:53:15 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle at feedle.net) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:53:15 -0700 (MST) Subject: VCF Southwest? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291432040.5578@vintagetech.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291432040.5578@vintagetech.com> Message-ID: <2128.69.145.252.1.1175212395.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> > > I'm considering the launching of a VCF Southwest event, but I'd need a > local coordinator in that region to help with the planning and such. > > The ideal location for the event would be Austin. When I think "Southwest", I think of a city a little more.. um... "west." Like Denver CO, Albuquerque NM, or El Paso, TX. You Texans always have an interesting view of where the "Southwest" is. Hint: if there's more than two states (or 1,000 miles) between you and the Pacific Ocean west of you, you aren't in the Southwest. The ideal place for a VCF Southwest would probably be in Phoenix AZ. That's almost dead center of the "real" Southwest: Not far from Los Angeles, San Diego, and Las Vegas, and plenty of cheap flights from everywhere else. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Mar 29 19:04:44 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:04:44 -0300 Subject: rs232 capture? References: <200703291526.l2TFQH7G003497@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <0b4d01c7725f$2ca6ffb0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > anyone know of a simple RS-232 capture program for Windows 95 which > will capture from 2 serial ports and give a timestamp which is > reasonable, like 10ms accuracy? Realterm is a good candidate. It can monitor two serial ports, even USB ones. I have a RS232 sniffer built with two FT-232, an USB hub and some parts. But there is also the EXCELLENT HHD serial monitor, but a bit expensive :o( Greetings from Brazil Alexandre From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 19:09:55 2007 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:09:55 -0700 Subject: VCF Southwest: who would come? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291529260.1258@vintagetech.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291529260.1258@vintagetech.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0703291709m6959fe30g5960241fef832ef0@mail.gmail.com> i would. On 3/29/07, Sellam Ismail <sellam at vintagetech.com> wrote: > > > As a follow-on to my previous request for a VCF Southwest coordinator, I'd > also be interested in hearing from those that would really like to have > such an event and would make an effort to come. > > I imagine the region it would cover would be the traditional southwest > states as well as areas as far east as Alabama as well as north of Texas. > > Please feel free to e-mail me directly or simply reply here. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From paul0926 at comcast.net Thu Mar 29 20:03:17 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:03:17 -0600 Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book Message-ID: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> I hope you don't mind me asking as this is not a tech quiestion per se, but if anyone in the world will know the answer it will be this group. I'm looking for a book that I rented from a library in 1973 or 1974 on computers. In the back of the book it has plans for building a computer out of basic components, including a telephone dial for input. The output is shown on lights and I remember there being more than a few bulbs. The "computer" probably does nothing more than add numbers. I use the book to research and write my 8th grade science paper and then I tried to build the computer for my 8th grade project but could not complete it at the time. Now that I'm older and wiser I figured I'd try again.... (mid life crisis?) I don't remember any ICs. It was pretty simple electrical components. Anyone know the title or author of this book? Thanks. Paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 29 20:37:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:37:00 -0700 Subject: Sytos In-Reply-To: <0DC4D2F1-5583-4535-9C86-07D517EB1BD1@neurotica.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329125931.0470b748@ehrich.com>, <0DC4D2F1-5583-4535-9C86-07D517EB1BD1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <460C074C.25416.C8D2DA8@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Mar 2007 at 19:05, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh wow, weird coincidence. I just found my original set of Sytos > floppies in a long-forgotten box last night. It is a very old DOS > release. If anyone really gets stuck and needs Sytos Plus (which does not record a format compatible with the non-plus Sytos), let me know. I've got it. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 29 23:06:25 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:06:25 -0700 Subject: Old UPSs Message-ID: <BAY138-F61FDB245DDCFE06FDAEB0A3630@phx.gbl> >From: Tom Peters <tpeters at mixcom.com> > >Hmmm... That's a great idea. Hopefully, the charging circuit works on >tractor batteries as well as the pricey SLA's specified. > >And Mark G had the idea of looking for online manuals via archive.org, also >an excellent suggestion. Unfortunately, the index / top layer pages seem to >be in the archive, but little else. So far, no manuals. > >Thanks, to both you guys. ---snip--- Hi I prefer to use marine batteries. They are made in large enough volume to be inexpensive and the deep cycle ones are more forgiving of being flattened occasionally. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ i'm making a difference.?Make every IM count for the cause of your choice. Join Now. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtagline From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Mar 30 01:51:49 2007 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:51:49 +0200 Subject: rs232 capture? In-Reply-To: <200703291526.l2TFQH7G003497@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200703291526.l2TFQH7G003497@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20070330065149.GH14080@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2007-03-29 11:26:16 -0400, Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> wrote: > anyone know of a simple RS-232 capture program for Windows 95 which > will capture from 2 serial ports and give a timestamp which is > reasonable, like 10ms accuracy? > > (I might be dreaming, I realize) > > I'd use DOS, but my 2nd serial port is PCMCIA. > > Alternately, if such a thing exists for Windows XP running on a modern > PC with USB serial ports, I'm open to that also. > > I need to do some field data collection and I figured someone here might > know of a simple program. This isn't specifically DOS oriented, but as long as you don't want to catch serial errors, you can quite easily sniff one bidirectional serial line with two serial ports, using both RxD lines for one data direction each. You won't get the state of the handshake lines etc, though. I guess this'll be only really available through the use of commercial hardware-based sniffers. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Don't believe in miracles: Rely on them! the second : From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 30 01:51:54 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 01:51:54 -0500 Subject: VCF Southwest: who would come? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291529260.1258@vintagetech.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291529260.1258@vintagetech.com> Message-ID: <460CB38A.10100@mdrconsult.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > As a follow-on to my previous request for a VCF Southwest coordinator, I'd > also be interested in hearing from those that would really like to have > such an event and would make an effort to come. I'd certainly make it if it was in Austin, and probably bring some gear to show and sell. I'll also do whatever I can to help except coordinate. I can't count on being available consistently enough to run it. Doc Shipley From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Mar 30 02:13:50 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:13:50 -0800 Subject: IBM 3420 008 Magnetic tape storage on eBay -- needs rescue In-Reply-To: <e1d20d630703291340q7cb19999uc5f8c6a408fb2336@mail.gmail.com> References: <502525.18784.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20070328185630.W15654@plum.flirble.org> <e1d20d630703281351y34ac8507x1362a5abf4398e01@mail.gmail.com> <460B694F.706@msm.umr.edu> <e1d20d630703291340q7cb19999uc5f8c6a408fb2336@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <460CB8AE.90301@msm.umr.edu> William Donzelli wrote: I won't try to quote you (goofed last time), but agree with your reply. I do wish there were more with resources of good storage to save what is out there now. I just won't condemn the scrappers out of hand for being scrappers. The one I used as an example was able to get much more for a lot of his stuff after he met up with some of us who could help him learn, and to his credit he stayed very friendly in his pricing with everyone. The ones who go from chop up to "enlightened" and try to jack the prices out of sight are the frustrating ones. This is way off the topic mentioned, I don't know if the scrapper who bid on the 3420 (I don't think he got it, or wasnt winning last count I had) has nothing to do with being a good guy or bad guy as I am describing here. Jim From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Mar 30 02:35:50 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:35:50 -0800 Subject: Sytos In-Reply-To: <0DC4D2F1-5583-4535-9C86-07D517EB1BD1@neurotica.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329125931.0470b748@ehrich.com> <0DC4D2F1-5583-4535-9C86-07D517EB1BD1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <460CBDD6.3010903@msm.umr.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 29, 2007, at 1:01 <snip> > Oh wow, weird coincidence. I just found my original set of Sytos > floppies in a long-forgotten box last night. It is a very old DOS > release. > > It also contained copies of SmarTerm-240 and -320 for DOS! 8-) you looked in my box! found the same box of crap, minus dos in my cleaning last saturday. I bought a copy of sytos which supported all tape drives at some point, and could use a copy of it again. The sytos I found was for a Cipher 125 mb drive I think. Jim From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Mar 30 02:45:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:45:49 +0100 Subject: Arcturus Computer and display system. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022E29@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi All Whilst sitting on the plane on the way back from Newcastle yesterday. It reminded me of a system I saw at Gatwick airport in the early 1970's. I'm pretty sure it was run by a mini computer called an 'Arcturus'. I can clearly remember the grey rack mounted box with its row of toggle switches and lamps. I was there to install a VDU (sometimes referred to as a glass teletype). The big teletype they drove it from made the whole place shake and the VDU I fitted of course did not. It drove the departure / arrival TV monitors. The way it generated the characters was curious to say the least. It had a large number of circuits which generated parts of characters. One did a vertical bar, another produced a whole circle whilst others output parts of a circle, forty-five degree bars and so on. For each character cell the component parts of the required character were selected summed and added to a TV raster. Does anybody remember the Arcturus? Rod Smallwood From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Mar 30 05:45:47 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:45:47 -0400 Subject: rs232 capture? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:51:49 +0200." <20070330065149.GH14080@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <200703301045.l2UAjlan015561@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > >This isn't specifically DOS oriented, but as long as you don't want to >catch serial errors, you can quite easily sniff one bidirectional >serial line with two serial ports, using both RxD lines for one data >direction each. yes, that's exactly what I want to do, but I need (somewhat) accurate timestamps... -brad From steerex at mindspring.com Fri Mar 30 06:41:35 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:41:35 -0500 Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000601c772c0$5fb28210$0701a8c0@win2000> It's certainly on topic here! Hmmm... I do (vaguely) remember seeing a construction project that used a telephone dial for input. It's been soo many years that the details escape me but, I'm sure it the same project that you're referring to. I hope you can find the docs. I'd like to see one built.... Hehehe... It's so funny to think the mechanical telephone dial might be the most difficult component to find. I haven't seen one in years. See ya, SteveRob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Heller" <paul0926 at comcast.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:03 PM Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book > I hope you don't mind me asking as this is not a tech quiestion per > se, but if anyone in the world will know the answer it will be this > group. > > I'm looking for a book that I rented from a library in 1973 or 1974 > on computers. In the back of the book it has plans for building a > computer out of basic components, including a telephone dial for > input. The output is shown on lights and I remember there being more > than a few bulbs. The "computer" probably does nothing more than add > numbers. I use the book to research and write my 8th grade science > paper and then I tried to build the computer for my 8th grade project > but could not complete it at the time. Now that I'm older and wiser I > figured I'd try again.... (mid life crisis?) > > I don't remember any ICs. It was pretty simple electrical components. > Anyone know the title or author of this book? > > Thanks. > > Paul From g at kurico.com Fri Mar 30 07:44:05 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:44:05 -0500 Subject: VCF Southwest: who would come? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291529260.1258@vintagetech.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291529260.1258@vintagetech.com> Message-ID: <460D0615.8020301@kurico.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > As a follow-on to my previous request for a VCF Southwest coordinator, I'd > also be interested in hearing from those that would really like to have > such an event and would make an effort to come. > > I imagine the region it would cover would be the traditional southwest > states as well as areas as far east as Alabama as well as north of Texas. > > Please feel free to e-mail me directly or simply reply here. > > Thanks! > > I would definitely make it if it were in Austin and might be able to bring some stuff as well. Right now I'm not sure if the kids recognize me so my time is pretty tight but I'd like to help as much as possible. George From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 30 08:22:35 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:22:35 -0500 Subject: VCF Southwest: who would come? References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291529260.1258@vintagetech.com> Message-ID: <007501c772ce$7d5bdbf0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Sellam wrote... > I imagine the region it would cover would be the traditional southwest > states as well as areas as far east as Alabama as well as north of Texas. Well, I agree with a few others here that said "Southwest" generally doesn't cause most people to envision Texas (no affront to Texas intended). I tend to think more along the lines of Arizona, New Mexico, etc so I think many would find the name confusing. When you're talking about an event named after a region - for attendance purposes you'd want the name to clearly reflect the region. My biggest concern is it steps on VCF Midwest too much and too soon. As you say.. "it would cover.....as well as north of Texas". VCF Midwest is doing well and growing, but it's a pretty new event still. Now is not the time to water it down with another event in the same territory. Perhaps when VCFmw attendance grows to a larger number, then it might be time to spread it out more. Do it too early and both events will suffer. That being said, in general I'm all for more VCF event locations. Just my two cents worth! Jay From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Mar 30 08:21:19 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703300917570.16392@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007, Paul Heller wrote: > I'm looking for a book that I rented from a library in 1973 or 1974 on > computers. In the back of the book it has plans for building a computer out > of basic components, including a telephone dial for input. The output is > shown on lights and I remember there being more than a few bulbs. The > "computer" probably does nothing more than add numbers. I use the book to > research and write my 8th grade science paper and then I tried to build the > computer for my 8th grade project but could not complete it at the time. Now > that I'm older and wiser I figured I'd try again.... (mid life crisis?) Take a look at item #270101277189 on Ebay, in the completed section. Is that it? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Mar 30 08:46:36 2007 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:46:36 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book Message-ID: <21930470.1175262396756.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> if that is the right article on eBay, then it was in Radio-Electronics magazine if I recollect. I started the same project, but never had enough money to build it. The article was written pre-microcomputer and would have been around 1965-1968. I don't know what book the article could have been in though. best regards, Steve Thatcher > >On Thu, 29 Mar 2007, Paul Heller wrote: > > Take a look at item #270101277189 on Ebay, in the completed section. >Is that it? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 30 08:53:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:53:31 -0500 Subject: NeXTstep: cloning a drive Message-ID: <460D165B.9060408@yahoo.co.uk> Does anyone happen to know where I can find a "whole disk" device file within NeXTstep? I was going to clone the OS drive of a mono Slab onto another (identical model) hard disk, figuring I'd just 'dd' the contents from one to the other. Problem is there's no obvious "whole disk" device under /dev, either for the OS drive or the "target" drive that I'm hanging off the back of the Slab. /usr/adm/messages gives me a couple of relevant entries: <drive name> as sd0 at sc0 target 1 lun 0 <drive name> as sd1 at sc0 target 2 lun 0 ... where <drive name> is just the vendor's ID string (Seagate ST1480N) and the drive's firmware revision. Unfortunately there's no such files as the obvious /dev/sd0 or /dev/sd1. There are /dev/sd0<a..h> and /dev/sd1<a..h> files, so maybe one of those (h?) corresponds to the whole disk? (according to 'mount', /dev/sd0a is the root OS partition) I could just pull the OS drive out of the Slab and hook both drives up to a Linux box and 'dd' there - but I thought I'd take the route of minimum dismantling, and of course I assumed it'd be an easy 5 minute job :-) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 30 09:24:09 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:24:09 -0500 Subject: Looking for old computer book References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703300917570.16392@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <000c01c772d7$15f8caf0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Paul wrote.... >> In the back of the book it has plans for building a computer out of basic >> components, including a telephone dial for input. To which Mike replied... > Take a look at item #270101277189 on Ebay, in the completed section. Is > that it? It may well be the one that Paul saw and was asking about. But just as another datapoint, I too remember as a kid seeing a design for a computer that used a telephone dial for input and it was not the same one as pictured in the ebay article that Mike pointed out. The one I saw was more "horizontal" in appearance with the dial on top, whereas the one on the ebay auction is more "vertical" and has the dial on the front. I also remember that the one I had seen definitely had a lot more components. An off-topic side-note: I can not recall what media I saw this in. It could have been a radio-electronics magazine, an old book from the local library (as a kid I spent several hours every day in the library soaking up books on various interests), or it may have been in the worldbook (I think that was the name) encyclopedias. I had a set of regular encyclopedias that also had science projects for many major subjects. These werent usually trivial experients, they were things that would be suitable for presenting in a school science fair for judging. I distinctly remember two of the projects. One was on the working of the heart. It was a board that tilted front to back on a triangular wedge. Routed into the board was a logical diagram of the human heart. The valves were one way metal flaps that opened by rotating on a thin metal shaft or wire. The blood was a set of marbles. When you tilted the board to the back, the marbles rolled through the valves in one direction, then when you tilted it back the other way the flaps only let the marbles go into the correct chambers. There was also a project showing air pressure... it was basically two sealed mason jars, each half full of water. There was a common pipe between them, then each one had a separate pipe just going out the top not connected to anything. One of the open pipes you put a balloon on. When you moved one jar higher than the other the balloon would inflate. Anyways, I wonder if the telephone dial computer project I saw was in the same encyclopedia set. Jay From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Mar 30 09:27:36 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:27:36 -0400 Subject: NeXTstep: cloning a drive In-Reply-To: <460D165B.9060408@yahoo.co.uk> References: <460D165B.9060408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1175264856.14532.39.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Fri, 2007-03-30 at 08:53 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone happen to know where I can find a "whole disk" device file within > NeXTstep? > > I was going to clone the OS drive of a mono Slab onto another (identical > model) hard disk, figuring I'd just 'dd' the contents from one to the other. > Problem is there's no obvious "whole disk" device under /dev, either for the > OS drive or the "target" drive that I'm hanging off the back of the Slab. > > /usr/adm/messages gives me a couple of relevant entries: > > <drive name> as sd0 at sc0 target 1 lun 0 > <drive name> as sd1 at sc0 target 2 lun 0 > > ... where <drive name> is just the vendor's ID string (Seagate ST1480N) and > the drive's firmware revision. Unfortunately there's no such files as the > obvious /dev/sd0 or /dev/sd1. There are /dev/sd0<a..h> and /dev/sd1<a..h> > files, so maybe one of those (h?) corresponds to the whole disk? (according to > 'mount', /dev/sd0a is the root OS partition) > > I could just pull the OS drive out of the Slab and hook both drives up to a > Linux box and 'dd' there - but I thought I'd take the route of minimum > dismantling, and of course I assumed it'd be an easy 5 minute job :-) > Is there an rsd0? That'd be the raw version of the disk that you should be able to copy. Another option might be sd0c which *should* be the whole disk if it was set up bsdish. Brian > cheers > > Jules > From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 30 10:04:46 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:04:46 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / new utility Message-ID: <200703301406.l2UE6jPr017489@hosting.monisys.ca> I've been converting some of the .TD0 image files that various people have sent to me into .IMD format using the tried and true "write it to a disk with Teledisk, and read it back in with Imagedisk" technique. This works, but gets tedious as you need to keep starting/exiting Teledisk and ImageDisk, remember which file you are working on over the time it takes to read/write the disk, and worst of all, write down the comment record from the Teledisk screen and manually enter it into ImageDisk when creating the disk. Got tiring rather quickly... So I wrote a new utility which might be handy to anyone else wishing to convert images: TD2IMD automates much of the process of converting Teledisk .TD0 images into Imagedisk .IMD format. It builds a list of all .TD0 files specified (you can use '*' so "TD2IMD *" does all .TD0 files in the current directory), then launches Teledisk and Imagedisk in turn allowng you to write/read the disk. With a single keystroke TD2IMD will enter the filename into Teledisk, then capture the comment record displayed on the screen and place it in an empty .IMD file of the same name. After you finish with Teledisk, it automatically launches Imagedisk, and also with a single-keystroke enters the filename. Imagedisk reads the comment from the empty .IMD file, lets you edit it if you wish, then reads the disk into the file. Goes MUCH faster! TD2IMD is available on my site, go to the software page, then pick "Teledisk", and look for TD2IMD on the subpage. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From martinm at allwest.net Fri Mar 30 10:17:52 2007 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:17:52 -0600 Subject: Looking for old computer book References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net><Pine.LNX.4.64.0703300917570.16392@localhost.localdomain> <000c01c772d7$15f8caf0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <000e01c772de$96410c20$0202a8c0@p4266> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 8:24 AM Subject: Re: Looking for old computer book > It may well be the one that Paul saw and was asking about. But just as > another datapoint, I too remember as a kid seeing a design for a computer > that used a telephone dial for input and it was not the same one as > pictured in the ebay article that Mike pointed out. > > The one I saw was more "horizontal" in appearance with the dial on top, > whereas the one on the ebay auction is more "vertical" and has the dial on > the front. I also remember that the one I had seen definitely had a lot > more components. I think this is the one I remember seeing when I was in grade school in 1960 or 1961. It used a phone dial and relays. As I remember, the article was in a magazine, but I cannot remember which magazine. It would have been one of the electronic magazines of the era. Was Popular Electronics published at this time? Martin Marshall From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Mar 30 10:53:08 2007 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:53:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Looking for old computer book Message-ID: <25380044.1175269988873.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> it was the 1967 issue of Electronics Illustrated that was sold on eBay (not Radio-Electronics) http://www.nzeldes.com/HOC/DialComp.htm >To which Mike replied... >> Take a look at item #270101277189 on Ebay, in the completed section. Is >> that it? From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Mar 30 09:43:08 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:43:08 +0200 Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness In-Reply-To: <001801c77273$d0ec6fb0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488349@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > Jay wrote.... > I got +5v & GND for my logic probe from CA2 & CC2 and powered > up just the BA11K. BF1 & BF2 both showed low as I'd expect > (since the cpu was powered off). This was a sanity check on > my part to make sure AC/DCLO were pulled low. I powered up > everything and BF1 & BF2 went hi. I hit load on the RL02 and > the drive started to spin up. At just the time I'd expect the > heads to load, the fault lite came on. BF1 & 2 were still hi. > If the RX02 is powered off, the drive will not fault, it will > spin up fine. Also, if the RX02 is off and everything else > on, the drive loads fine and boots RT11. The moment I plug in > the power for the RX02 the RL02 immediately faults (but the > cpu keeps on running right where it was). One thing I need to > check, I am not positive (because it's all rather loud) that > when the RL02 faults that it spins down the drive. I don't > recall hearing the noticeable decrease in volume. I would > have thought it would spin down upon any fault. Maybe it is > and i just didn't hear it. > > I can start going through the prints on the RL02 as Tony > suggested, looking at all the signals that can trip the fault > light. Is that the right approach? I mean, the problem > obviously isn't in the RL02 or controller - as they work > flawlessly if the RX02 is turned off. This would make me > think the problem is more likely something about the RL02 or M8256. > > At least I'm learning a lot :) > > Jay Ooh, you're not the only one who is learning :-) ACLO and DCLO are for me also signals to check. Tony pointed me out that DCLO might be asserted by a (defective) memory board that fails to initialize ... it was indeed that board that kepy my 11/84 from starting! You can work your way back from the signal that drives the FAULT lamp on the RL02. Perhaps an other approach is to check what signals go from the RX02 drive to the M8256 RX211 controller. Especially, where the signals from that flatcable go on the RX211 module, and what effect they might have on the UNIBUS. Perhaps there is a short in the flatcable between the RX02 and the RX211 that acts up when the RX02 is powered? good hunting, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Mar 30 11:01:36 2007 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:01:36 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Looking for old computer book Message-ID: <3069917.1175270496632.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> speaking of relay based counters... http://www.retards.org/library/technology/electronics/relay-counter.pdf > >I think this is the one I remember seeing when I was in grade school in 1960 >or 1961. It used a phone dial and relays. As I remember, the article was >in a magazine, but I cannot remember which magazine. It would have been one >of the electronic magazines of the era. Was Popular Electronics published >at this time? > >Martin Marshall > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 30 11:29:44 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:29:44 -0500 Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488349@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <005c01c772e8$a2cafe60$6a00a8c0@BILLING> I had written.... >> This would make me >> think the problem is more likely something about the RL02 or M8256. I *HATE* it when I make a typo that isn't obvious and may throw people off. Of course, I meant that "the problem is more likely something about the RX02 or M8256". Or... ya know... the backplane could be the culprit here. But the important point... the RL02 definitely works and loads correctly as long as the RX02 is powered off. > You can work your way back from the signal that drives the FAULT > lamp on the RL02. Perhaps an other approach is to check what signals > go from the RX02 drive to the M8256 RX211 controller. Especially, > where the signals from that flatcable go on the RX211 module, and > what effect they might have on the UNIBUS. Perhaps there is a short > in the flatcable between the RX02 and the RX211 that acts up when > the RX02 is powered? Yes, but.... if that's the case... why does the RX02 work perfectly. Separately, each one (RL02 and RX02) works just fine, boots an OS, etc. But if they are both on... RL02 faults after spinup. Thanks for the tips! Jay From scheefj at netscape.net Fri Mar 30 11:28:16 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:28:16 -0400 Subject: Old UPSs In-Reply-To: <BAY138-F61FDB245DDCFE06FDAEB0A3630@phx.gbl> References: <BAY138-F61FDB245DDCFE06FDAEB0A3630@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <460D3AA0.8050603@netscape.net> Hey guys, One of the reasons UPSs use sealed lead-acid batteries is they are located indoors. If you want to use marine or tractor (or regular car) batteries, they should be located in the proverbial "well ventilated space". Lead-acid batteries give off hydrogen and oxygen when charging, a volatile mixture that will linger in any enclosure. I use batterywholesale.com for replacement SLA batteries where a 4-battery pack is $200. For the manual, have you tried calling support at the current [no pun] company? Sometimes real-time communication is best [again, no pun]. Jim dkelvey at hotmail.com wrote: > > >> From: Tom Peters <tpeters at mixcom.com> >> >> Hmmm... That's a great idea. Hopefully, the charging circuit works on >> tractor batteries as well as the pricey SLA's specified. >> >> And Mark G had the idea of looking for online manuals via >> archive.org, also an excellent suggestion. Unfortunately, the index / >> top layer pages seem to be in the archive, but little else. So far, >> no manuals. >> >> Thanks, to both you guys. > ---snip--- > > Hi > I prefer to use marine batteries. They are made in large enough > volume to be inexpensive and the deep cycle ones are more > forgiving of being flattened occasionally. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > i'm making a difference. Make every IM count for the cause of your > choice. Join Now. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtagline > From martinm at allwest.net Fri Mar 30 11:38:32 2007 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:38:32 -0600 Subject: Looking for old computer book References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net><Pine.LNX.4.64.0703300917570.16392@localhost.localdomain><000c01c772d7$15f8caf0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> <000e01c772de$96410c20$0202a8c0@p4266> Message-ID: <001001c772e9$dc591300$0202a8c0@p4266> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Marshall" <martinm at allwest.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:17 AM Subject: Re: Looking for old computer book > > I think this is the one I remember seeing when I was in grade school in > 1960 or 1961. It used a phone dial and relays. As I remember, the > article was in a magazine, but I cannot remember which magazine. It would > have been one of the electronic magazines of the era. Was Popular > Electronics published at this time? > > Martin Marshall > Bad form to reply to my own posting, but I found this link: http://www.ece.rice.edu/~jdw/images/ei0160.html The site has an article from January 1960 Radio Electronics on building a computer that uses a phone dial, but this one uses transistors, so it is not the one that I remember. Martin Marshall From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 30 11:54:24 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:54:24 -0400 Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703300917570.16392@localhost.localdomain> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703300917570.16392@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3CACF2D5-2E1D-4A2E-AEB6-A929A87A1440@neurotica.com> On Mar 30, 2007, at 9:21 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> I'm looking for a book that I rented from a library in 1973 or >> 1974 on computers. In the back of the book it has plans for >> building a computer out of basic components, including a telephone >> dial for input. The output is shown on lights and I remember there >> being more than a few bulbs. The "computer" probably does nothing >> more than add numbers. I use the book to research and write my 8th >> grade science paper and then I tried to build the computer for my >> 8th grade project but could not complete it at the time. Now that >> I'm older and wiser I figured I'd try again.... (mid life crisis?) > > Take a look at item #270101277189 on Ebay, in the completed > section. Is that it? Oh My. I must build that. I don't suppose anyone has found a copy of that article? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Mar 30 11:51:17 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:51:17 -0700 Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness In-Reply-To: <005c01c772e8$a2cafe60$6a00a8c0@BILLING> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488349@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <005c01c772e8$a2cafe60$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <a06240800c232f00c0a53@[131.215.234.40]> At 11:29 AM -0500 3/30/07, Jay West wrote: >Yes, but.... if that's the case... why does the RX02 work perfectly. >Separately, each one (RL02 and RX02) works just fine, boots an OS, >etc. But if they are both on... RL02 faults after spinup. I learned that 90% of the time it's cables; 90% of the remainder is power supplies. Perhaps one of the bus power supplies is marginal? Voltage maybe OK, current is not. Just a thought. John From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 30 12:23:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:23:16 -0700 Subject: Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <25380044.1175269988873.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25380044.1175269988873.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <460CE514.1666.FEF7C69@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Mar 2007 at 0:00, Steve Thatcher wrote: > it was the 1967 issue of Electronics Illustrated that was sold on eBay (not Radio-Electronics) I remember reading that article when it came out. I recall the neon- bulb ring counters--they looked like a nightmare to get right and something that would eventually require more tweaking as the bulbs aged. There were other "computers" that made their showing at science fairs. One was a tic-tac-toe playing design that, IIRC, used Stroger switches (something that might have also worked for the calculator shown in the magazine article). Around the same time, I also seem to recall a "morse code typewriter" design, complete with a keyboard fabricated from individual switches. It may have been in Radio-Electronics. Anyone remember it? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 30 12:28:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:28:07 -0700 Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <000601c772c0$5fb28210$0701a8c0@win2000> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net>, <000601c772c0$5fb28210$0701a8c0@win2000> Message-ID: <460CE637.12669.FF3EFAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Mar 2007 at 6:41, Steve Robertson wrote: > I hope you can find the docs. I'd like to see one built.... Hehehe... It's > so funny to think the mechanical telephone dial might be the most difficult > component to find. I haven't seen one in years. Now, you're rubbing it in! The phones in my shop and the garage are Western Electric dial models. The shop phone is a traditional wall model and the garage one's a trimline. Colors are 70's burnt orage and dark red. Both are modular units--and the CO out here still understands pulse dialing. Never had a lick of trouble with either of them. Cheers, Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Mar 30 12:24:45 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:24:45 -0500 Subject: Old UPSs Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070330121636.0b781e18@localhost> At 03:53 PM 3/28/2007 -0500, you wrote: >I'm trying to get two old UPS units to work. They were made by Best >Electric / Best Power Technologies and apparently, that firm (in Necedah >WI) has changed hands at least twice. Entering www.bestpower.com into a >browser gets you an immediate redirect to >http://www.powerware.com/UPS/BestPower/Products.asp, an Eaton company, >which knows nothing at all about these units. > >I've got a model ME2.1KVA unit that needs four 12V, 35Ah batteries. I >think it works, I just can't afford the batteries. Best price I've seen is >about $49. The UPS is huge-- about 18 inches front to back, and darn near >two feet high. > >I also have a ME700VA unit that uses the same battery, just one of them. > >Both have serial ports and lots of dipswitches. > >Anyone know where to find a manual for these? Well I'll be dipped. The direct approach paid off! I sent an email to Eaton via their "Contact Us" form on their website, which I reached by trying to reach www.bestpower.com, being redirected to http://www.powerware.com/UPS/BestPower/Products.asp?CC=1 (Service and support --> Contact Support) and finding the BestService at eaton.com email address. Or maybe it went to http://www.powerware.com/USA/contact It's hard to tell. Anyhow, someone at BestService at eaton.com sent me a 27-page PDF with most of the user-side documentation. It includes a pin-out of the DB-25 connector on the back, and the command guide. Pin 1 n/c 2 transmit data 3 receive data 6 +12v level 7 signal ground 11 contact opens on inverter running 12 contact closes on inverter running 13 contact on inverter running common 14 +12v, -.5 amp 18 +12v level 19 n/c 20 AS/400 option 21 remote emergency power off- short to pin 6 or 18 to shut ups down (off state) 22 n/c 23 contact closes on alarm 24 contact on alarm common 25 contact opens on alarm -T ----- 99. [Computing] "The number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected" --UNIX Prg Man, 2nd ed, June 1972 --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 30 12:38:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:38:12 -0400 Subject: Sytos In-Reply-To: <460CBDD6.3010903@msm.umr.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329125931.0470b748@ehrich.com> <0DC4D2F1-5583-4535-9C86-07D517EB1BD1@neurotica.com> <460CBDD6.3010903@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <E881311B-5BF9-45B2-B8FB-0F51A4254E2A@neurotica.com> On Mar 30, 2007, at 3:35 AM, jim wrote: >> Oh wow, weird coincidence. I just found my original set of >> Sytos floppies in a long-forgotten box last night. It is a very >> old DOS release. >> >> It also contained copies of SmarTerm-240 and -320 for DOS! 8-) > > you looked in my box! found the same box of crap, minus dos in my > cleaning last saturday. Perhaps they're actually the same box...maybe there's an Einstein- Rosen Bridge connecting our closets. ;) > I bought a copy of sytos which supported all tape drives at some > point, and could use a copy of it again. The sytos I found was > for a Cipher 125 mb drive I think. I'm pretty sure my copy is not the "all drives" version. I know I used the software with a QIC drive, I *think* it was an Archive 2150S connected to an Adaptec 1542B but I'm not sure. But anyway, I'd be happy to make images of the disks if you want them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bear at typewritten.org Fri Mar 30 13:05:12 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:05:12 -0700 Subject: NeXTstep: cloning a drive In-Reply-To: <460D165B.9060408@yahoo.co.uk> References: <460D165B.9060408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4EB0E553-6316-4889-9175-CE69E07CF536@typewritten.org> On Mar 30, 2007, at 6:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone happen to know where I can find a "whole disk" device > file within NeXTstep? Is there a reason to not just use Builddisk.app? ok bear From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Mar 30 13:25:11 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:25:11 -0700 Subject: Sytos Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4EB@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > you looked in my box! found the same box of crap, minus dos in my > cleaning last saturday. Perhaps they're actually the same box...maybe there's an Einstein- Rosen Bridge connecting our closets. ;) Billy writes: Sort of like Terry Pratchett's Library that has all the books in the universe if you go far enough down the stacks (because all libraries are actually one library). All of our junk boxes are actually one - lovely idea. Just have to dig deep enough to find that old model 73 IBM typewriter I need so badly. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 30 12:43:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:43:54 -0700 Subject: Old UPSs In-Reply-To: <460D3AA0.8050603@netscape.net> References: <BAY138-F61FDB245DDCFE06FDAEB0A3630@phx.gbl>, <460D3AA0.8050603@netscape.net> Message-ID: <460CE9EA.1471.100262D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Mar 2007 at 12:28, scheefj at netscape.net wrote: > One of the reasons UPSs use sealed lead-acid batteries is they are > located indoors. If you want to use marine or tractor (or regular car) > batteries, they should be located in the proverbial "well ventilated > space". Lead-acid batteries give off hydrogen and oxygen when charging, > a volatile mixture that will linger in any enclosure. I use > batterywholesale.com for replacement SLA batteries where a 4-battery > pack is $200. Where the pack is kept on perennial "float", such as a UPS, emissions are very low (as witnessed by the tablespoon or so of water I need to add to each cell every 6 months) The small amount of hydrogen, being much lighter than air, dissipates quickly. (That "lighter than air" aspect is also one of the reasons that I refuse to run propane into the kitchen, as it's heavier than air and will accumulate in low spots). I suspect one of those "emergency" lamps that are used in public spaces that employ a motorcycle battery generate as much or more H2. The oxygen I don't worry about. You'd probably generate more hydrogen than the batteries do in a year by using a capful of Drano to unclog a drain. A little off-topic, but interesting nonetheless is how much hydrogen is liberated by electrolysis. There were (and perhaps still are) firms offering a "generate your own welding gas" rig by electrolyzing water with potassium hydroxide added. A 240 volt, 20 amp rig generated enough gas to power a very small jeweler's torch. And there is very little caloric content in the flame--you could pass your hand through it. I'll stick with acetylene, thank you. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 30 14:19:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Northstar Dimension In-Reply-To: <4605A807.6D183997@rain.org> Message-ID: <294564.18323.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> thanks, but evidently the bidding must be over... --- Marvin Johnston <marvin at rain.org> wrote: > > A Northstar Dimension is up on Ebay, item > #140097327621. I've dealt with the > seller before on VCM, and he is a good guy. This is > the first picture I've seen > of the N* Dimension, and it is interesting! Right > now, there are about 23 hours > left on the auction. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 12:58:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:58:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <460CE514.1666.FEF7C69@cclist.sydex.com> References: <25380044.1175269988873.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <460CE514.1666.FEF7C69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0703301058m607de293q78092bc0df0175ec@mail.gmail.com> On 3/30/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 30 Mar 2007 at 0:00, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > > it was the 1967 issue of Electronics Illustrated that was sold on eBay (not Radio-Electronics) > > I remember reading that article when it came out. I recall the neon- > bulb ring counters--they looked like a nightmare to get right and > something that would eventually require more tweaking as the bulbs > aged. It would be sensitive to the light in the room, wouldn't it? ISTR there was some note somewhere about the avalanche voltage on a neon bulb being affected by swings in ambient light, but as this stuff is s bit before my era, I could easily be wrong. -ethan From fire at dls.net Fri Mar 30 12:42:56 2007 From: fire at dls.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:42:56 -0500 Subject: Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <200703301728.l2UHR7Zw006460@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703301728.l2UHR7Zw006460@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070330174256.8882C9684E8@demolition.dls.net> No. He is correct. Book was orange. Used futura font on cover. Had computer in name. I built and still have computer for my 6th grade project. Used telephone dial as input. Had to substitute different transistors. Had 10 flip-flops, each with a flash light bulb next to them, and a complementar bulb which I mounted in board at top of project. It could add, or subtract, or toggle. I made this modification by using a very cool rotary switch. Hardest part of project, other than my two failed rectifiers (OK, so I got it wrong, I was 11 or 12) was de-bouncing the telephone dial. My dad had a friend who was an electrical engineer who designed a lot of the electronics for Lowrey organs who helped (told me) where to change values for resistors, capacitors, and substitute in less expensive, newer transistors in flip-flops. Each flip flop was two half adders. While I am not disputing the existence or similarity of the magazine article, heck, for all I remember the author might have said, that this book is based on article he read or wrote, but this book definitely existed. Bradley Slavik From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 30 13:27:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:27:22 -0500 Subject: NeXTstep: cloning a drive In-Reply-To: <1175264856.14532.39.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <460D165B.9060408@yahoo.co.uk> <1175264856.14532.39.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <460D568A.4010808@yahoo.co.uk> Brian Wheeler wrote: > Is there an rsd0? That'd be the raw version of the disk that you should > be able to copy. Another option might be sd0c which *should* be the > whole disk if it was set up bsdish. Someone else suggested sd0c too. I decided not to mess about with it any more though and dropped the drives into a linux machine and dd'ed them there. Seems to have done the trick anyway, but I'm a little wary now - although the drives were identical vendor / models, the 'new' disk was reporting five more cylinders than the 'old' one when under Linux (yet the same number of heads and sectors per track), and I'm not sure of the reason for that. Possibly there was a firmware "feature" in the "smaller" drive which meant the full drive capacity wasn't being utilised, but that seems like a pretty major flaw in the days when a few MB here and there was precious. If not then why someone / something (the NeXTstep installer, presumably) would format the drive below total capacity, I don't know. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 30 13:41:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:41:01 -0500 Subject: NeXT slab SCSI fault Message-ID: <460D59BD.9080308@yahoo.co.uk> Anyone know if NeXT monochrome slabs have dual SCSI buses (one internal and one external) or not? I've got one here that resolutely refuses to talk to any internal SCSI device [1], but will happily talk to (and boot from, if necessary) external devices. In fact, if anything is plugged into the internal bus at all then the system won't even boot from an external device. I've ruled out internal cabling, internal power connector, something shorting the PCB underneath, and an actual device fault - which means it's possibly a bad solder joint somewhere or a cracked PCB track. However, *if* the slabs have two separate SCSI buses then it's possible that there's a fault with the actual controller too which is knocking out the internal bus. [1] Actually it "talks" in that there seems to be some device activity, but always falls over with a (useful!) "SCSI error" message whenever there's an internal device present. I'm not too fussed as the colour slab works and this one works too (albeit hanging the drive off the external connector), plus we've already got a good mono slab at the museum. It'd just be nice to get to the bottom of what's actually broken! cheers Jules From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Mar 30 13:01:43 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <460CE637.12669.FF3EFAA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net>, <000601c772c0$5fb28210$0701a8c0@win2000> <460CE637.12669.FF3EFAA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703301400350.17968@localhost.localdomain> > On 30 Mar 2007 at 6:41, Steve Robertson wrote: > > I hope you can find the docs. I'd like to see one built.... Hehehe... It's > so funny to think the mechanical telephone dial might be the most difficult > component to find. I haven't seen one in years. How about $5.50 a piece, NIB? :-) http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/m1511.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 30 14:06:52 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <460CE637.12669.FF3EFAA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net>, <000601c772c0$5fb28210$0701a8c0@win2000> <460CE637.12669.FF3EFAA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703301907.PAA22371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > --and the CO out here still understands pulse dialing. Are there COs that don't? I thought *everyone* understood pulse. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paul0926 at comcast.net Fri Mar 30 14:43:51 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:43:51 -0600 Subject: Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <000c01c772d7$15f8caf0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703300917570.16392@localhost.localdomain> <000c01c772d7$15f8caf0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <32693294-0E6D-4CDC-9202-1B88D653AFE8@comcast.net> On Mar 30, 2007, at 8:24 AM, Jay West wrote: > It may well be the one that Paul saw and was asking about. But just > as another datapoint, I too remember as a kid seeing a design for a > computer that used a telephone dial for input and it was not the > same one as pictured in the ebay article that Mike pointed out. > > The one I saw was more "horizontal" in appearance with the dial on > top, whereas the one on the ebay auction is more "vertical" and has > the dial on the front. I also remember that the one I had seen > definitely had a lot more components The magazine article is definitely not the one. It is too reliant on the neon bulbs. It is amazing how much the bulbs have to be conditioned for it to even work. The one I saw was in a book, not a magazine, and it did not have neon lamps but regular lamps. I think Jay is correct about it being more horizontal and having a lot of components. I remember there what seemed a complex rotary switch, probably something you cannot even get today but my local electronics shop was able to order it at the time. My biggest problem back then was I could not find a telephone dial. The telephones were the property of the phone company and were only rented so you could not take one apart. Now I can find a rotary phone in a flea market for $1.00. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 30 13:45:47 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <200703301814.l2UIDvRU007292@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <392891.18713.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > On 30 Mar 2007 at 0:00, Steve Thatcher wrote: > > > it was the 1967 issue of Electronics Illustrated that was sold on eBay (not Radio-Electronics) > > I remember reading that article when it came out. I recall the neon- > bulb ring counters--they looked like a nightmare to get right and > something that would eventually require more tweaking as the bulbs > aged. > > There were other "computers" that made their showing at science > fairs. One was a tic-tac-toe playing design that, IIRC, used Stroger > switches (something that might have also worked for the calculator > shown in the magazine article). When I did a Wikipedia search for "Electronics Illustrated," I found a link to this full set of page images about another "computer" from that magazine. Not the same as the one sold on eBay, but still interesting: http://www.ece.rice.edu/~jdw/images/ei0160.html Bill ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 30 13:54:41 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1967 Electronics Illustrated computer (was: Looking for old computer book) In-Reply-To: <200703301814.l2UIDvRU007292@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <196960.52519.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> More on the 1967 Electronics Illustrated computer: http://www.nzeldes.com/HOC/DialComp.htm Anyone know which issue in 1967 this was in? If I can get that, I can get my local library system research people working on getting me a photocopy of the article. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 30 14:17:03 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1967 Electronics Illustrated computer (was: Looking for old computer book) Message-ID: <50741.2786.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> More leads on article: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1998-December/114456.html ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 30 14:13:42 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:13:42 +0000 Subject: NeXTstep: cloning a drive In-Reply-To: <460D165B.9060408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <C23311E6.92F5%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 30/3/07 13:53, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Does anyone happen to know where I can find a "whole disk" device file within > NeXTstep? > My slab is set to show me the 'ugly' side of a NeXTStep boot, devices and all so once I fit the new memory I borrowed from work I'll fire it up and see what device it likes to play with. Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 30 15:02:08 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Southwest? In-Reply-To: <2128.69.145.252.1.1175212395.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291432040.5578@vintagetech.com> <2128.69.145.252.1.1175212395.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: <20070330125845.B44944@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 feedle at feedle.net wrote: > You Texans always have an interesting view of where the "Southwest" is. > Hint: if there's more than two states (or 1,000 miles) between you and the > Pacific Ocean west of you, you aren't in the Southwest. You can drive west all day in Texas, and still be in Texas. > The ideal place for a VCF Southwest would probably be in Phoenix AZ. > That's almost dead center of the "real" Southwest: Not far from Los > Angeles, San Diego, and Las Vegas, and plenty of cheap flights from > everywhere else. It is sometimes possible to get some exceptional deals on hotels, meeting rooms, etc. in Vegas. Santa Fe typifies the southwest. It is a hassle to get there by public transportation, but it's worth it for the food. So, is the goal "Southwest" or is the goal "Texas"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 30 15:05:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20070330130359.F44944@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007, Paul Heller wrote: > I'm looking for a book that I rented from a library in 1973 or 1974 > on computers. In the back of the book it has plans for building a > computer out of basic components, including a telephone dial for > input. The output is shown on lights and I remember there being more > than a few bulbs. The "computer" probably does nothing more than add In about 1963, there was a kit with plastic and cardboard pieces that had a dial From pechter at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 15:45:11 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:45:11 -0400 Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness In-Reply-To: <a06240800c232f00c0a53@131.215.234.40> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488349@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <005c01c772e8$a2cafe60$6a00a8c0@BILLING> <a06240800c232f00c0a53@131.215.234.40> Message-ID: <ee5521f80703301345q57f1c890j70996888e96bbf17@mail.gmail.com> My question is which one is first on the bus. Both are NPR/NPG DMA devices... wonder if one's screwing the bus up for the second. Bill On 3/30/07, John A. Dundas III <dundas at caltech.edu> wrote: > > At 11:29 AM -0500 3/30/07, Jay West wrote: > >Yes, but.... if that's the case... why does the RX02 work perfectly. > >Separately, each one (RL02 and RX02) works just fine, boots an OS, > >etc. But if they are both on... RL02 faults after spinup. > > I learned that 90% of the time it's cables; 90% of the remainder is > power supplies. Perhaps one of the bus power supplies is marginal? > Voltage maybe OK, current is not. Just a thought. > > John > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 30 15:21:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM typewriter? ribbons In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4EB@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <810481.2362.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> I have a box containing 3 or 4 ribbons probably for some old IBM typewriter. Don't have it in front of me, so don't ask me the specifics right now. But if this could be something you're interested in, ping me. Of course I too have to wonder if they're worth anything, being that they could have dried up. Don't know. They are NOS though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 30 15:38:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Northstar Dimension In-Reply-To: <294564.18323.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <495845.17746.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> whoops, thought that was to me personally... --- Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> wrote: > thanks, but evidently the bidding must be over... > > --- Marvin Johnston <marvin at rain.org> wrote: > > > > > A Northstar Dimension is up on Ebay, item > > #140097327621. I've dealt with the > > seller before on VCM, and he is a good guy. This > is > > the first picture I've seen > > of the N* Dimension, and it is interesting! Right > > now, there are about 23 hours > > left on the auction. > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 30 15:37:29 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM FORTRAN 8087 support was Re: Is MSX on topic? In-Reply-To: <45B6868A.5030705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <831195.90315.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote: > I wrote the 8087 support for the IBM Fortran > compiler (actually a set of > library routines) to prove to IBM management that > there was benefit to > having the 8087 as an option (they actually wanted > to remove the > socket). And they needed something that would > actually *use* the 8087. > > OK, there necver was an 80289 (or whatever), hut > you can bet Intel would > > have made one if there'd been a demand (read : It > would have gone into > > the IBM PC/AT). Hi. Yes an old post, but what prompted me was the recent thread on FORTRAN compilers. Which IBM compiler are we talking about? I do believe there were actually 2 IBM branded versions, one by M$ of course, and the other (dubbed IBM Professional FORTRAN 1.0) was by Ryan-McFarland, said to be a truly F77 compliant implementation, unlike M$'s. At least by one MIT graduate who used it, and also by it's said manual. Or if IIRC "to the best of IBM's ability to understand the spec" ;). I was just curious :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Mar 30 15:47:04 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:47:04 -0700 Subject: NeXTstep: cloning a drive Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C4EE@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jules Richardson wrote: Possibly there was a firmware "feature" in the "smaller" drive which meant the full drive capacity wasn't being utilised, but that seems like a pretty major flaw in the days when a few MB here and there was precious. If not then why someone / something (the NeXTstep installer, presumably) would format the drive below total capacity, I don't know. cheers Jules Billy responds: Actually this was a very common thing (formatting a drive below rated capacity). There are several reasons why you might want to do this. 1. One vendor is already qualified with a certain track count. The next vendor has to match that track count or else a driver has to be modified by the system provider. Easier (and cheaper) to force the disk vendor to compensate. 2. A previous capacity point has been obsoleted, but the vendor has committed to supply drives and spares for X many years. So a new drive is downgraded to match the old drive, even if means wasting some disk area. Believe it or not, this is usually cheaper too since the new drive is further down the cost curve. 3. Performance increase. By only using the outer cylinders, you get a drive that has more data per track so fewer seeks. And you are only using a portion of the surface so the seeks are shorter, hence faster. I remember a couple of times that end users discovered this and would deliberately damage drives to get warranty replacements. The replacement drives could give 30-50% performance improvement. (One Special case turned a 700MB SCSI drive into a 350MB drive. It really screamed through the benchmarks.) Billy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 30 15:47:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:47:30 -0700 Subject: Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703301058m607de293q78092bc0df0175ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <25380044.1175269988873.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <460CE514.1666.FEF7C69@cclist.sydex.com>, <f4eb766f0703301058m607de293q78092bc0df0175ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <460D14F2.6791.10AA784E@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Mar 2007 at 13:58, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It would be sensitive to the light in the room, wouldn't it? ISTR > there was some note somewhere about the avalanche voltage on a neon > bulb being affected by swings in ambient light, but as this stuff is s > bit before my era, I could easily be wrong. Some neons had a bit of something included in the glass to provide a bit of ionizing radiation to render the bulb less sensitive to ambient light. I don't think that NE2's are the best gas diodes for digital uses--there are (or used to be) higher-quality neons that have more uniform characteristics. I remember that the pedalboard on old (tube-type) Lowery organs used neons in some capacity--I think it was to quash the "sustain" when a note was played that overlapped the sustain of the previous note. I've got an old neon "nightlight" in my shop that's aged sufficiently that it comes on whenever I turn on the overhead illumination but otherwise doesn't glow when the light level is low. I wonder if the neon ring counter circuit might be replicated using something like diacs or tunnel diodes for the active device. Of course, you'd need an LED or something to actually show the logic state. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 30 16:11:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:11:12 -0700 Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <200703301907.PAA22371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net>, <460CE637.12669.FF3EFAA@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703301907.PAA22371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <460D1A80.1760.10C02ABC@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Mar 2007 at 15:06, der Mouse wrote: > > --and the CO out here still understands pulse dialing. > > Are there COs that don't? I thought *everyone* understood pulse. How about the digital phone setups? Qwest and Comcast keeps flogging them, but it's not clear what sort of interface they have on the subscriber end. Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Mar 30 15:13:46 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0703301058m607de293q78092bc0df0175ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <25380044.1175269988873.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <460CE514.1666.FEF7C69@cclist.sydex.com> <f4eb766f0703301058m607de293q78092bc0df0175ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703301612030.17968@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It would be sensitive to the light in the room, wouldn't it? ISTR > there was some note somewhere about the avalanche voltage on a neon > bulb being affected by swings in ambient light, but as this stuff is s > bit before my era, I could easily be wrong. There's a document on this site that talks about the "Dark Effect"in glow lamps: http://www.donsbulbs.com/bulbs/g/l/ge1965glowlamp/005.gif It's part of a GE publication, the whole of which is on that site: http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/t.pl/library1965geglowlamps.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From g at kurico.com Fri Mar 30 16:19:44 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:19:44 -0500 Subject: VCF Southwest? In-Reply-To: <20070330125845.B44944@shell.lmi.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0703291432040.5578@vintagetech.com> <2128.69.145.252.1.1175212395.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> <20070330125845.B44944@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <460D7EF0.4030801@kurico.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > So, is the goal "Southwest" or is the goal "Texas"? > > Personally I think the goal would be to have it in the "close enough" location that means the least amount of traveling for the majority of folks. If the classiccmp communities center of mass is in Texas, then I think it should be in Texas. If it's in Santa Fe, then so be it. I guess there could be some other considerations (e.g. lots of high tech companies in Austin that could contribute like Dell, IBM, TI, etc), then there's always the Goodwill Computer Museum to certainly tip the scales in Austin's favour :) George From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Mar 30 15:29:24 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:29:24 -0400 Subject: NeXTstep: cloning a drive In-Reply-To: <460D568A.4010808@yahoo.co.uk> References: <460D165B.9060408@yahoo.co.uk> <1175264856.14532.39.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <460D568A.4010808@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200703301629.24623.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 30 March 2007 14:27, Jules Richardson wrote: > Seems to have done the trick anyway, but I'm a little wary now - > although the drives were identical vendor / models, the 'new' disk > was reporting five more cylinders than the 'old' one when under Linux > (yet the same number of heads and sectors per track), and I'm not > sure of the reason for that. Two drives with the same model # and slightly different geometries isn't at all unusual, at least for modern-ish disks. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 30 15:54:01 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:54:01 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / new utility In-Reply-To: <200703301406.l2UE6jPr017489@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703301406.l2UE6jPr017489@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <460D78E9.1040802@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I've been converting some of the .TD0 image files that various people > have sent to me into .IMD format using the tried and true "write it > to a disk with Teledisk, and read it back in with Imagedisk" technique. Or, you could just ask Chuck for the Teledisk file format... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 30 16:24:08 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:24:08 -0400 Subject: VCF Southwest? In-Reply-To: <20070330125845.B44944@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200703302126.l2ULQIba085715@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: >It is sometimes possible to get some exceptional deals on hotels, meeting >rooms, etc. in Vegas. I second that idea ! Like the early days of Comdex :-) Bob From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 30 16:50:22 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:50:22 -0500 Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488349@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><005c01c772e8$a2cafe60$6a00a8c0@BILLING><a06240800c232f00c0a53@131.215.234.40> <ee5521f80703301345q57f1c890j70996888e96bbf17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001a01c77315$6eff21b0$6a00a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > My question is which one is first on the bus. > Both are NPR/NPG DMA devices... wonder if one's screwing the bus up for > the > second. The RX02 controller is first on the bus (in the expansion cabinet). The only I/O card in the cpu is the console board. This is cabled to the BA11-K expansion box. Slot 1AB is the unibus in cable, slot 1CF is the M8256 controller. Slot 2AF is the RX02 controller (M7266 I think). Then slot 3AF is my MS11 unibus memory board (M7891 I think). The rest of the slots have grants up to and including the last slot. The last slot has the M9312 in AB. I put the RX02 controller in 1CF so that it wasn't a wasted quad slot. So yes, if I change the NPR jumpers accordingly and move the cards around I could put the RX02 controller after the RL02 controller and see if it *HIDES* the problem. But I'd still like to fix it. On another note... this RX02 controller was in a 11/44 recently, and the SDI controller came after it (in a later system unit). So if it was screwing up the bus for following cards I would THINK I would have seen it in the UDA50 controller. But who knows :) Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Mar 30 16:50:04 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:50:04 -0400 Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <460D1A80.1760.10C02ABC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> <200703301907.PAA22371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <460D1A80.1760.10C02ABC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703301750.04314.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 30 March 2007 17:11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Mar 2007 at 15:06, der Mouse wrote: > > > --and the CO out here still understands pulse dialing. > > > > Are there COs that don't? I thought *everyone* understood pulse. > > How about the digital phone setups? Qwest and Comcast keeps flogging > them, but it's not clear what sort of interface they have on the > subscriber end. It's a normal POTS interface. It's possible that it won't do pulse-dialing, though. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Mar 30 17:07:36 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:07:36 -0700 Subject: IBM FORTRAN 8087 support was Re: Is MSX on topic? In-Reply-To: <831195.90315.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <831195.90315.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <460D8A28.7070203@shiresoft.com> Chris M wrote: > --- Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote: > > >> I wrote the 8087 support for the IBM Fortran >> compiler (actually a set of >> library routines) to prove to IBM management that >> there was benefit to >> having the 8087 as an option (they actually wanted >> to remove the >> socket). And they needed something that would >> actually *use* the 8087. >> >>> OK, there necver was an 80289 (or whatever), hut >>> >> you can bet Intel would >> >>> have made one if there'd been a demand (read : It >>> >> would have gone into >> >>> the IBM PC/AT). >>> > > Hi. Yes an old post, but what prompted me was the > recent thread on FORTRAN compilers. Which IBM compiler > are we talking about? I do believe there were actually > 2 IBM branded versions, one by M$ of course, and the > other (dubbed IBM Professional FORTRAN 1.0) was by > Ryan-McFarland, said to be a truly F77 compliant > implementation, unlike M$'s. At least by one MIT > graduate who used it, and also by it's said manual. Or > if IIRC "to the best of IBM's ability to understand > the spec" ;). > I was just curious :) > At this point, I don't remember which one it was. -- TTFN - Guy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 30 17:44:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 23:44:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: aclo dclo (11/45) flustered-ness In-Reply-To: <001801c77273$d0ec6fb0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 29, 7 09:33:34 pm Message-ID: <m1HXPq0-000J0gC@p850ug1> > > Tony wrote.... > > What you have to realise first is that, like most Unibus signals (because > > that's what they are, they are carried on the Unibus cables), ACLO and > > DCLO are open-collector driven. They're pulled high (to +5V) by resistors > > on the bus terminator cards, and can be pulled low at any point, by any > > device. > I was thinking that open collector signal levels were low and float, not low > and hi. From my testing, you're obviously right though, see below. I guess > the pullups are what take the float to hi? Right. An open-collector output is what the name implies. The output pin is connected to the collector of an (NPN) transistor, the emitter of which is groudned. So if that transistor is turned on, the pin is low, if it's turned off the pin floats You (the desigern) get to provide the collector load for that transistor. Here it's just a resistor to +5V. So if the transistor is turned off, the pin appears high (pulled up via the reisstor). The thing is, you can connect many outputs together without problems (unlike with normal 'totem pole' outputs where having 2 outputs connected togtehr will cause high currents to folw if they're in different states). With opne-collector outputs, if any transistor is turned on, the signal will be low. If they're all off, it'll be high. Hence the term 'Wired-AND' (or 'Wired-OR' if you're using negative logic) for such connections of multiple open-collector outputs. I've seen schematics (and I think DEC were among them) where there's an AND gate symbol drawn around the point where all these signals get joined together just to remind you what's going on. > I got +5v & GND for my logic probe from CA2 & CC2 and powered up just the > BA11K. BF1 & BF2 both showed low as I'd expect (since the cpu was powered > off). This was a sanity check on my part to make sure AC/DCLO were pulled > low. I powered up everything and BF1 & BF2 went hi. I hit load on the RL02 > and the drive started to spin up. At just the time I'd expect the heads to > load, the fault lite came on. BF1 & 2 were still hi. If the RX02 is powered > off, the drive will not fault, it will spin up fine. Also, if the RX02 is > off and everything else on, the drive loads fine and boots RT11. The moment > I plug in the power for the RX02 the RL02 immediately faults (but the cpu > keeps on running right where it was). One thing I need to check, I am not > positive (because it's all rather loud) that when the RL02 faults that it > spins down the drive. I don't recall hearing the noticeable decrease in > volume. I would have thought it would spin down upon any fault. Maybe it is > and i just didn't hear it. IIRC, not all 'faults' cause a spin-down. What this has told you is that the problem is not due to ACLO or DCLO. Now that's useful information. When you're trying to sort out a fault like this, knwoing where it _isn't_ is avtually very useful. > > I can start going through the prints on the RL02 as Tony suggested, looking > at all the signals that can trip the fault light. Is that the right > approach? I mean, the problem obviously isn't in the RL02 or controller - as Well, it's what I'd do next, obviously (as I suggested it). The reasoning behind doing it that way, is that you have a definite problem (the FAULT light comes on). So your next move should be to find out _why_ that light is coming on. > they work flawlessly if the RX02 is turned off. This would make me think the > problem is more likely something about the RL02 or M8256. > > At least I'm learning a lot :) Good!. That's one reason I don't like taking things like this to private e-mail, I feel that everyone (including me, I might add) learn a lot from such discussions, even if we don't ahve that particular machine. Fault tracing is much the same on any hardware, actually. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 30 17:51:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:51:37 -0700 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / new utility In-Reply-To: <460D78E9.1040802@oldskool.org> References: <200703301406.l2UE6jPr017489@hosting.monisys.ca>, <460D78E9.1040802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <460D3209.29658.111C189D@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Mar 2007 at 15:54, Jim Leonard wrote: > Or, you could just ask Chuck for the Teledisk file format... You could ask, but Chuck can't tell. Chuck signed a nondisclosure agreement when he sold the product. Cheers, Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Mar 30 18:35:35 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 30 Mar 2007 15:35:35 -0800 Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <200703301750.04314.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net> <200703301907.PAA22371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <460D1A80.1760.10C02ABC@cclist.sydex.com> <200703301750.04314.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1175297735.460d9ec730c0a@secure.zipcon.net> it's -kind- of a normal POTS interface, it is part of a cable-modem (at least the one we got when we got digital voice) and in a power outage... you're stewed after a couple hours , we had the cable modem with the telephone jack on it plugged in to a UPS that gave it a couple hours runtime beyond what it's internal battery gave during the big windstorms that hit washington a few months ago, and we had telephone up until the local cable POP battery backups went flat. and no, they don't do pulse dialing. Quoting Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org>: > On Friday 30 March 2007 17:11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 30 Mar 2007 at 15:06, der Mouse wrote: > > > > --and the CO out here still understands pulse dialing. > > > > > > Are there COs that don't? I thought *everyone* understood pulse. > > > > How about the digital phone setups? Qwest and Comcast keeps flogging > > them, but it's not clear what sort of interface they have on the > > subscriber end. > > It's a normal POTS interface. It's possible that it won't do > pulse-dialing, though. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Mar 30 18:16:35 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:16:35 -0500 Subject: NeXT slab SCSI fault In-Reply-To: <200703302232.l2UMVHKL011257@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200703302232.l2UMVHKL011257@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <p06240812c23348db468e@[129.162.152.69]> At 16:32 -0600 3/30/07, Jules wrote: >Anyone know if NeXT monochrome slabs have dual SCSI buses (one internal and >one external) or not? I think not, don't know that for sure, but have pretty good evidence - see below. >I've got one here that resolutely refuses to talk to any >internal SCSI device [1], but will happily talk to (and boot from, if >necessary) external devices. In fact, if anything is plugged into the internal >bus at all then the system won't even boot from an external device. I have seen a case where plugging in an external CD drive, with passive terminator, but *leaving that drive turned off*, allows the system to run normally from the internal drive, where it would generate SCSI errors without the external drive in place. I didn't have a SCSI terminator in 50-pin mini D to plug into the external connector, but if I'd had one I would have tried it. I'd recommend trying SCSI cable to external terminator, or cable to unpowered external drive with passive terminator, and see whether that allows the internal to work. If that's productive, I'd play with the termination on the internal drive. One other possibility is a bent pin on the internal drive or on the connector, but I assume you checked for that. >It'd just be nice to get to the bottom of what's >actually broken! Absolutely. If you do figure it out, please report back - I'd like to know what's causing this too, if it's a generic fault. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 30 21:12:12 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:12:12 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / new utility In-Reply-To: <460D78E9.1040802@oldskool.org> References: <200703301406.l2UE6jPr017489@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703310114.l2V1EB19024881@hosting.monisys.ca> > > I've been converting some of the .TD0 image files that various people > > have sent to me into .IMD format using the tried and true "write it > > to a disk with Teledisk, and read it back in with Imagedisk" technique. > > Or, you could just ask Chuck for the Teledisk file format... Did that quite some time ago - He's not allowed to tell... There's a bit of reverse engineered information on the web, but it does not seem complete - Writing to a disk and re-reading seems like the quickest and most reliable way to do it given that I didn't have THAT many to do. Having the filenames auto-entered, and the comments captured and transferred makes this approach reasonable to do. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 30 21:17:06 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:17:06 -0500 Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <200703301907.PAA22371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <460CE637.12669.FF3EFAA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703310119.l2V1J5vq025535@hosting.monisys.ca> > > --and the CO out here still understands pulse dialing. > Are there COs that don't? I thought *everyone* understood pulse. I doub't you will find a CO that doesn't understand pulse, however I do development on a PBX which has never understood pulse - point of disagreement between myself and the company, as it's just a matter of software and I think it should be supported - but apparently we have never had a complaint/request for it. Under another hat, I develop point of sale applications, and some of the terminals I use default to pulse dialing until they have downloaded their configuration - I use one of the PBX's to simulate a telco connection to my emulated host, and not having pulse means I have to manually configure dualing every time I wipe the terminal.... Annoying, but apparently few other people are using pulse anymore (at least not in small offices). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 30 21:57:25 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:57:25 -0500 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay Message-ID: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> This is a classic HP currently on Ebay, a decent 2116C model. Item is 290099957210 What is so special about it, besides the obvious? Seller updated the auction listing with a card list. It appears to have two of the (rare) 12920/21 mux sets (32 ports), something that is required for all versions of TSB. I'd be willing to trade a nice mux panel for them in exchange for one of the two mux sets ;) Jay From evan at snarc.net Fri Mar 30 23:26:28 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 23:26:28 -0500 Subject: Very, very funny Message-ID: <000101c7734c$c0821dd0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=288581&cache=1 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 30 22:24:55 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:24:55 -0600 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:57:25 -0500. <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <E1HXUD1-0008Oa-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes: > This is a classic HP currently on Ebay, a decent 2116C model. Item is > 290099957210 It looks in pretty sweet shape! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 31 00:32:08 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 00:32:08 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / new utility In-Reply-To: <200703310114.l2V1EB19024881@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703301406.l2UE6jPr017489@hosting.monisys.ca> <200703310114.l2V1EB19024881@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <460DF258.7090004@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> I've been converting some of the .TD0 image files that various people >>> have sent to me into .IMD format using the tried and true "write it >>> to a disk with Teledisk, and read it back in with Imagedisk" technique. >> Or, you could just ask Chuck for the Teledisk file format... > > Did that quite some time ago - He's not allowed to tell... Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. > There's a bit of reverse engineered information on the web, but it does not > seem complete - Writing to a disk and re-reading seems like the quickest and > most reliable way to do it given that I didn't have THAT many to do. Having > the filenames auto-entered, and the comments captured and transferred makes > this approach reasonable to do. But how can you be *sure* nothing was mangled in the conversion? If you can avoid two analog generational losses, hey, why not... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 31 01:09:02 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 23:09:02 -0700 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca> Jay West wrote: > > This is a classic HP currently on Ebay, a decent 2116C model. Item is > 290099957210 > > What is so special about it, besides the obvious? Seller updated the auction > listing with a card list. It appears to have two of the (rare) 12920/21 mux > sets (32 ports), something that is required for all versions of TSB. I'd be > willing to trade a nice mux panel for them in exchange for one of the two > mux sets ;) Going by the card list presented by the seller and what can be discerned from the picture of the card cage, the unit is missing the core memory boards. Other memory module boards for what should be 16-24 KWords are present but the actual core boards appear to have been pulled. (There are also some discrepancies between the card list and the card cage picture.) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 31 02:18:29 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 00:18:29 -0700 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <460E0B38.3EFC7DF0@cs.ubc.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Jay West wrote: > > > > This is a classic HP currently on Ebay, a decent 2116C model. Item is > > 290099957210 > > > > What is so special about it, besides the obvious? Seller updated the auction > > listing with a card list. It appears to have two of the (rare) 12920/21 mux > > sets (32 ports), something that is required for all versions of TSB. I'd be > > willing to trade a nice mux panel for them in exchange for one of the two > > mux sets ;) > > Going by the card list presented by the seller and what can be discerned from > the picture of the card cage, the unit is missing the core memory boards. > Other memory module boards for what should be 16-24 KWords are present but the > actual core boards appear to have been pulled. > > (There are also some discrepancies between the card list and the card cage > picture.) Hmmm.. just in case it needs clarification, I did not mean to suggest that there is 16-24KWords of 'other' memory in the machine. Each 8KWord memory module in the 2116C is comprised of 3 cards (XY DRIVER, INHIBIT DRIVER and SSA). There appear to be 2 or 3 INHIBIT DRIVER cards and 2 XY DRIVER cards in the unit, however there are no SSA cards (on which the actual core resides). In short, there is no memory in this unit. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 31 14:33:07 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:33:07 -0700 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / new utility Message-ID: <460EB773.3080404@bitsavers.org> > If you can avoid two analog generational losses There is NO "analog generational loss" in what he is doing, since the transfer is using saturation recording. From allain at panix.com Sat Mar 31 11:43:54 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 11:43:54 -0500 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001301c773b3$c59ba2c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > This is a classic HP currently on Ebay, a decent 2116C model. Item is > 290099957210 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290099957210 : "This HP 2116c was part of an HP2000 BASIC timesharing system acquired in 1970. The auction is for the central processing unit..." [ That was new one on me, a BASIC timesharing system. accessing... : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Time-Shared_BASIC ] A beautiful system. Too bad about the distance and the missing core memory. John A. From bear at typewritten.org Sat Mar 31 05:10:34 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 03:10:34 -0700 Subject: NeXT slab SCSI fault In-Reply-To: <460D59BD.9080308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <460D59BD.9080308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3DB01075-8C13-4E55-9E84-059A01B6028C@typewritten.org> On Mar 30, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyone know if NeXT monochrome slabs have dual SCSI buses (one > internal and one external) or not? Nope, just one. You probably have a problem with TERMPOWER. ok bear From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 31 14:05:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM typewriter! ribbons Message-ID: <109577.32268.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> big box of 5 (1 missing). Black on 2 sides, I-B-M in green, magenta, and blue. Box is blue on other 2 sides. One blue side has a "flap" torn back. Sorry, camera batteries were discharged. Individual ribbons are wrapped in cellophane I guess. For shipping :) Part No.: 1010730 C Inking: 50 "Clean Clip" Color: Black Record Grade: Superior Life Nylon There were 2 responders, and I'll honor their desires in the order they came in. I simply post the information publicly in case someone loses interest, and someone's interest in suddenly piqued! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Mar 31 06:01:28 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 06:01:28 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / new utility In-Reply-To: <460DF258.7090004@oldskool.org> References: <200703310114.l2V1EB19024881@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200703311003.l2VA3Sfg023179@hosting.monisys.ca> > > There's a bit of reverse engineered information on the web, but it does not > > seem complete - Writing to a disk and re-reading seems like the quickest and > > most reliable way to do it given that I didn't have THAT many to do. Having > > the filenames auto-entered, and the comments captured and transferred makes > > this approach reasonable to do. > > But how can you be *sure* nothing was mangled in the conversion? If you > can avoid two analog generational losses, hey, why not... I check that no detectable errors occured in both processes (writing and reading), that no sectors in the final image are flagged missing, and that the number of sectors/track in the resulting .IMD image is what I expect for the system in question (in case a complete sector was somehow "lost"). The chances of data corruption getting past the CRC checks seems to me to be somewhat lower than the chances of losing data do to misinterpreting an undocumented file format based on minimal reverse engineered notes which contain numerous instances of terms such as "unknown", "seems to" and "may mean" when referring to various fields in the image. The problem with data loss due to a flawed understanding of it's format is that such loss often goes undetected. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Mar 31 20:34:58 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:34:58 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / yet another new utility In-Reply-To: <460DF258.7090004@oldskool.org> References: <200703310114.l2V1EB19024881@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200704010037.l310b0Tk009924@hosting.monisys.ca> Ok - since it was requested, and it was something that I've had it in the back of my mind to do at some point, I spent a good chunk of the day fooling with Teledisk and poking at it's image files - I think I have finally figured out most of the missing pieces (such as how to encode/decode mixed density disks). I have posted a preliminary converter called TD02IMD which will convert .TD0 files directly to .IMD files without having to write them to a floppy (in fact Teledisk is not required at all). So far it's worked on all the .TD0 files I've thrown at it, and given exactly the same .IMD image content as when I read the disk with IMD (using IMDU's compare ability to confirm). I've also decided to change the way I make it available - instead of burying the converters away in a page that might be easily missed, I've simply included them in the ImageDisk distriubution. So if you want them, just grab the ImageDisk archive again, I've updated the documenation to include the converters as well. Let me know if you encounter any problems. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 31 10:20:04 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:20:04 -0700 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / new utility In-Reply-To: <460DF258.7090004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <BAY138-F983634AD879BE1A16C423A3620@phx.gbl> >From: Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> > >Dave Dunfield wrote: ---snip--- > >>There's a bit of reverse engineered information on the web, but it does >>not >>seem complete - Writing to a disk and re-reading seems like the quickest >>and >>most reliable way to do it given that I didn't have THAT many to do. >>Having >>the filenames auto-entered, and the comments captured and transferred >>makes >>this approach reasonable to do. > >But how can you be *sure* nothing was mangled in the conversion? If you >can avoid two analog generational losses, hey, why not... Hi I wonder if the tool uses some of the BIOS routines to actually write the sectors. If so, one could hijack those routines and write the data to a separate file. When I've written different formats and such, I usually go straight to the hardware port but that is only because I don't understand how the BIOS routines handle disk parameters, well enough to know what I'm doing. Just a thought. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From info at harrells.net Sat Mar 31 20:02:51 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:02:51 -0400 Subject: IMI disk drive on Cromemco In-Reply-To: <e1d20d630703311313i41fe50f8obb34ae58bb7801ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <e1d20d630703311313i41fe50f8obb34ae58bb7801ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <460F04BB.3040307@harrells.net> I have a Cromemco system that came with a IMI model 7700 Hard Drive. The drive was working when I got it but was having read errors. I begun backup up the files and planned on reformatting. I was able to back up the files I need but head a thump like something hit the drive of the drive. This is a 10" 5 meg drive with a plastic clear top. The drive then began to fail so I power it off and looked around as much as I could through the top. I power it back up and now the drive will begun ready. The heads look like they never go through the headload process but I can't be sure. If I move the unit I can see that the head actuator lets the heads float freely in and out.. I have measured all the power supply voltages going to the drive and they are good. I don't think it was a head crash as I don't see signs on the platters as much as I can see through the plastic. The top does look like it can be remove but I don't have a clean room I'm holding off until that is the last resort. I worked on CDC drives so this looks like one only smaller and without the little brush that would sweep the drives before the heads loaded. I don't have a manual so I'm limited to what I can do. I have a few questions if anyone can help with. The head lock does disengage when power is applied. Does the drive need to come up to speed before voltage is applied to the actuator? Does anyone know where I can find more out on this drive Should I get ready to make two wall clocks out of the platters? > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Mar 31 17:11:20 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:11:20 -0500 Subject: Looking for old Ads Message-ID: <008401c773e1$8d0cca50$31406b43@66067007> I'm looking for old Honeywell ads running from 1964 to 1978 showing the various animals made from computer parts/chips. I was just given a set of pewter animals that Honeywell had made to give away showing some not all of the 100 animals made for the ads. I would like to have copy the ad that goes with each of the animals that I got today. I got one good ad from this site today http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/oldads.htm , so if anyone can point me to other it would great. John From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 31 21:12:05 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:12:05 -0500 Subject: 11/45 - unjustified progress Message-ID: <000501c77403$25b9b580$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Well, I dug in to the prints for the RL02 and wrote up notes for myself on all the signals feeding the fault lamp and exactly what pins of what chips they were on (E1 and E2 of the drive logic board). Went downstairs and pushed the BA11-K back into the rack (I had it out to check the ACLO & DCLO signals). I pulled out the RL02 and lifted the logic board and got my notes ready. Instead of a logic probe I decided to use a logic clip. Easier & quicker in this case because I knew just what pins to look at on which chips, and all the signals of interest were on two adjacent chips. I powered up everything including the RX02. When I hit load, the drive spun up and came ready. No fault at all. The RL02 and RX02 both boot & work fine. I've never been quite so disappointed that a system worked, because I know I did nothing to fix it. I tried to recreate the problem all afternoon - with the machine cold, or with it running the instruction set excerciser for hours, no hiccups. The odd part is, the "RL02 faulting upon spinup IFF the RX02 is powered on" WAS completely reproducable, and it never once failed to fail. It failed absolutely 100% of the time for the past few weeks. Not only if it was on when the RL02 spinup was attempted, but if the RX02 was off and the RL02 spun up successfully - the moment you would apply power to the RX02 the RL02 would immediately fault. Now I can't get it to fail, and all I did between times was extend the BA11-K, hook up a probe and look at a few test points, then put it back. Perhaps it is cables. I'll be trying again tomorrow to reproduce the problem and hope it reoccurs :\ Jay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Mar 31 14:10:30 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 11:10:30 -0800 Subject: SoCal garage cleaning, truck or dumpster In-Reply-To: <460D8A28.7070203@shiresoft.com> References: <831195.90315.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <460D8A28.7070203@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <460EB226.3080107@socal.rr.com> 15 years of packratting a 2 car garage and a 10x35 storage unit full of old computer stuff will be seriously trimmed over the next three weeks to make room for a worse hobby, 2 old Porsche 928's. I have commercial shelving in both garage and storage, some going up 10 feet or so, this is not a few boxes, its a few truck loads. Some stuff is headed for a dumpster, cases of new old stock software still in the bulky boxes, and not anything too exciting in the first place. Some stuff will get condensed, out goes the bulky box, floppy and docs into a single mass box. Middle aged PCs, compaq 486's I saved to play with linux on, by the dozen. NOS Apple and mac repair parts, cables, stacks of middle aged macs like 610, half a dozen LW II's. I'm not just walking into the forest with a candle, nice, to me at least stuff that doesn't take up much space I will find room for, but that won't include a complete commodore system currently filling a good sized box. I have two NOS specialty monitors, weird connections, a Sigma LabView I think, I forget the other, but I will update once I dig in a bit, and put some picts up on my website. Email me, I am 40,000 messages behind, not joking, reading this list. VERY little will be shipped, exceptions for good causes and old commitments, like the DEC terminal promised to someone on this list. Sooner much better than later, in 7 days I have to have 10 feet clear to replace the tilt up garage door with an essential roll up. First whack is going to be moving good stuff, and tossing junk like the old software, but 6 month goal is cut to the bone and get rid of 10x35 storage unit's monthly cost. I am not dropping the old computer hobby, but I have 20 boxes of Apple 13" monitor NOS service replacement deflection boards, 20 weird AppleTalk network routers, and not enough room to play with it, just store it. Email me, visit lovely Orange county, take home booty. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 31 17:36:41 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 18:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: On topic? Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <460D1A80.1760.10C02ABC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <DF3CF735-5396-45D9-970D-933F2981C763@comcast.net>, <460CE637.12669.FF3EFAA@cclist.sydex.com>, <200703301907.PAA22371@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <460D1A80.1760.10C02ABC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200703312238.SAA04247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> --and the CO out here still understands pulse dialing. >> Are there COs that don't? I thought *everyone* understood pulse. > How about the digital phone setups? If it's a VoIP phone, like a Polycom or a Grandstream, then there is no analog interface for which the tone/pulse distinction even makes sense. If it's an ATA with a POTS phone attached, then yes, I'd consider the ATA busted if it doesn't understand pulse. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paul0926 at comcast.net Sat Mar 31 08:15:48 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:15:48 -0600 Subject: Looking for old computer book In-Reply-To: <20070330174256.8882C9684E8@demolition.dls.net> References: <200703301728.l2UHR7Zw006460@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070330174256.8882C9684E8@demolition.dls.net> Message-ID: <6F6464A3-0EE3-4678-9DFD-ADBC78FDF493@comcast.net> On Mar 30, 2007, at 11:42 AM, Bradley Slavik wrote: > No. He is correct. Book was orange. Used futura > font on cover. Had computer in name. I built and > still have computer for my 6th grade project. Used > telephone dial as input. Had to substitute different > transistors. Had 10 flip-flops, each with a flash > light bulb next to them, and a complementar bulb > which I mounted in board at top of project. It > could add, or subtract, or toggle. I made this > modification by using a very cool rotary switch. This is the one. > > While I am not disputing the existence or similarity > of the magazine article, heck, for all I remember the > author might have said, that this book is based on > article he read or wrote, but this book definitely > existed. Good, I'm glad I'm not crazy. Thanks! From pdp11 at saccade.com Sat Mar 31 20:17:37 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 18:17:37 -0700 Subject: DN10K In-Reply-To: <e1d20d630703310959n390c942cn94422515725419bd@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20070331175923.027c0348@mail.saccade.com> >Missing cards? They just might be empty, unused slots in the >backplane. That sounds like you've got the basic compliment. As I recall from my days running a network of them, the base DN10K has four cards (Network, video, CPU and memory). Extra slots were available for an FPU, more memory (and maybe a disk controller?). The CPU should be easy to identify by the presence of a MC68010 chip. The DN10K's typically did not have their own disk drives; instead they booted (and paged!) off of a "partner" server node having the disk. The network adapters (in a plastic box that screwed onto the back) were spectacularly flaky on those machines. The DN10K's had a switching power supply with a subtle audible hissing/buzzing noise corresponding closely to the machine's activity. With experience, the power supply noise was almost as informative as a blinking-light front panel. For example, it'd make a distinctive rhythmic chirp when the network was interrupted and the paging algorithm was frantically re-trying the operation to clear the page fault. If not fixed ASAP, the screen would break apart with an ugly "PARTNER NOT FOUND" message. Between the flaky network adapters and the one-fails-they-all-die ring network topology, keeping a DN10K network running was challenging. Cheers, jp From shirsch at adelphia.net Sat Mar 31 08:40:25 2007 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NeXT slab SCSI fault In-Reply-To: <460D59BD.9080308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <460D59BD.9080308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0703310938480.1988@monarch.fast.net> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone know if NeXT monochrome slabs have dual SCSI buses (one internal and > one external) or not? I've got one here that resolutely refuses to talk to > any internal SCSI device [1], but will happily talk to (and boot from, if > necessary) external devices. In fact, if anything is plugged into the > internal bus at all then the system won't even boot from an external device. I have an SGI Iris Indigo that behaves in a similar manner iff the external drive has any sort of termination enabled. Sort of counter-intuitive, but by removing termination from the external drive inclosure it's quite happy. -- From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Mar 31 19:26:50 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:26:50 -0700 Subject: VCF Southwest? References: <200703302232.l2UMVHKP011257@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001801c773f4$7c53ce30$6601a8c0@downstairs2> > So, is the goal "Southwest" or is the goal "Texas"? Southwest Technical Products Corp. was located in San Antonio, just an hour south of Austin, Texas. I got invited to a dinner last year. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/History/SWTPC_Dinner.htm Wayne Greene went there in 1975 http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/73_Magazine/Feb1976/SWTPC_Visit_1975.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From us21090 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 31 17:04:06 2007 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Marbly Heart (Re: Looking for old computer book) Message-ID: <215159.94789.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jay, ----- Original Message ---- I distinctly remember two of the projects. One was on the working of the heart. It was a board that tilted front to back on a triangular wedge. Routed into the board was a logical diagram of the human heart. The valves were one way metal flaps that opened by rotating on a thin metal shaft or wire. The blood was a set of marbles. When you tilted the board to the back, the marbles rolled through the valves in one direction, then when you tilted it back the other way the flaps only let the marbles go into the correct chambers. --- I remember that!!! I wanted to build it, but for any number of reasons didn't. For a long time now I remember associating the marbly heart with my ESR Dr. Nim toy, which used marbles to play the game of Nim. What I don't remember is which I came across first- Dr. Nim or the Marbly article. The idea of using marbles, tilt boards, gates, has been tucked away in my brain to some day emulate **something**. Scott ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 11:59:03 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 11:59:03 -0500 Subject: DN10K Message-ID: <e1d20d630703310959n390c942cn94422515725419bd@mail.gmail.com> My Apollo DN10000 is finally approaching sunlight, and hopefully will not go back into my shop. I want to sell it. It is a bit of a piece of work - no drives, no OS, one side cover missing (the simple kind - the flip up types are still there). Grimy as hell. A little surface corrosion. Maybe some missing cards. Missing cards? They just might be empty, unused slots in the backplane. I *think* the processor is there. The graphics card is there, as is the I/O and memory module. The cards are not really labeled, so I made some guesses. If there are others that are more familiar, please contact me. Offers entertained off list. It is located in NY (10512), and I really do not want to ship it, but there is a very good chance I can deliver late April/early May along my roadtrip, hitting Indianapolis, Boulder, Phoenix, LA, the Bay Area, and many points between. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 15:13:29 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:13:29 -0500 Subject: Convex parts Message-ID: <e1d20d630703311313i41fe50f8obb34ae58bb7801ae@mail.gmail.com> Today I started stripping out good parts from a Convex C240 minisupercomputer - a machine I had purchased from a scrap dealer almost ten years ago. It was a disaster of a deal - one of the rare times I feel I was screwed my a junkman. The machine turned out to be missing many parts, including processors and power units, cables were chopped, memory was swiped, plus there was mouse crap evident - yuck. For years I have been threatening the part it out, and now is the time. A few parts will end up on Ebay, the metal will go to the scrapyard, and I am keeping the boards that I have for now. I know Convex machines are not very common, but if there are others that need spares for 200 series machines*, please let me know, as the boards and (hopefully) backplane will be for sale. * A guy I know that worked at Convex said the processors should mostly interchange - although a rev level problem might pop up. -- Will From feedle at feedle.net Sat Mar 31 22:07:27 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (Chris Sullivan) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:07:27 -0600 Subject: VCF Southwest? In-Reply-To: <001801c773f4$7c53ce30$6601a8c0@downstairs2> References: <200703302232.l2UMVHKP011257@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001801c773f4$7c53ce30$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <42F14783-F2E2-41F9-ADB1-69DC925F14B6@feedle.net> On Mar 31, 2007, at 6:26 PM, Michael Holley wrote: > Southwest Technical Products Corp. was located in San Antonio, just > an hour south of Austin, Texas. Doesn't make it right. Calistoga Spring Water isn't bottled in Calistoga, California anymore, either. I'm not trying to make a semantical argument, but the big problem with starting a "VCF Southwest" so far from what most non-Texans view as the "Southwest" is: what do people in Phoenix call their show when it happens? If Arizona doesn't have the right to use the word "Southwest", who does? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 31 22:26:24 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:26:24 -0500 Subject: HP 2116 on ebay References: <021f01c77340$509aec60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><460DFAF5.8A2CED95@cs.ubc.ca> <460E0B38.3EFC7DF0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <000601c7740d$879479c0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Brent wrote... >> Going by the card list presented by the seller and what can be discerned >> from >> the picture of the card cage, the unit is missing the core memory boards. >> Other memory module boards for what should be 16-24 KWords are present >> but the >> actual core boards appear to have been pulled. I didn't look that close. Brent is of course right, memory seems to be missing. Something else caught my eye upon re-visiting that ad. Either that machine never ran HP2000 TSB, or someone has pulled a lot more cards than just the memory. I'm quite certain that a system with those cards could not run TSB as is. My guess is either someone pulled lots of I/O cards, or, the seller did a quick google search on 2116 and found some mention of TSB so he assumed it was a TSB box. Not necessarily at all. Jay From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 22:21:43 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:21:43 -0500 Subject: DN10K In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20070331175923.027c0348@mail.saccade.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20070331175923.027c0348@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <e1d20d630703312021o1ad241e1pd6699c986a057287@mail.gmail.com> > That sounds like you've got the basic compliment. As I recall from my days > running a network of them, the base DN10K has four cards (Network, video, > CPU and memory). Extra slots were available for an FPU, more memory (and > maybe a disk controller?). The CPU should be easy to identify by the > presence of a MC68010 chip. What I think is the CPU board does not contain a 68010, but a raft of PGA chips with provocative tags like MMU, IP, FPC, and so forth. I think that is Prism. > The DN10K's typically did not have their own disk drives; instead they > booted (and paged!) off of a "partner" server node having the disk. The > network adapters (in a plastic box that screwed onto the back) were > spectacularly flaky on those machines. This has space for two drives below, and it look like one once was there. I forgot there is a VME cage in this as well with an Exelan network card and an Interphase disk controller. There is also a 1/4 tape drive in the front. If I can get this thing wheeled out into the driveway tomorrow, I will shoot some pictures. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 31 22:35:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Southwest? In-Reply-To: <001801c773f4$7c53ce30$6601a8c0@downstairs2> References: <200703302232.l2UMVHKP011257@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001801c773f4$7c53ce30$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <20070331203157.S6149@shell.lmi.net> > > So, is the goal "Southwest" or is the goal "Texas"? . . . and Albuquerque has some microcomputer history, . . . There are plenty of good arguments for having a VCF Texas, and there are plenty of good arguments for having a VCF Southwest. Maybe BOTH. From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Mar 31 23:31:06 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:31:06 -0500 Subject: Converting .TD0 to .IMD / yet another new utility In-Reply-To: <200704010037.l310b0Tk009924@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200703310114.l2V1EB19024881@hosting.monisys.ca> <200704010037.l310b0Tk009924@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <460F358A.8050105@pacbell.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Ok - since it was requested, and it was something that I've had it > in the back of my mind to do at some point, I spent a good chunk of > the day fooling with Teledisk and poking at it's image files - I > think I have finally figured out most of the missing pieces (such > as how to encode/decode mixed density disks). > > I have posted a preliminary converter called TD02IMD which will > convert .TD0 files directly to .IMD files without having to write > them to a floppy (in fact Teledisk is not required at all). Dave, all I can say is: you are amazing. It was proved long ago, but this proves it again. Where are all the people that were bitching because you didn't want to release the source code of imagedisk until you were ready? So many half baked ideas get kicked around on the list about what should be done, but you just go and do it. Bravo.