From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Jul 1 00:00:03 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 00:00:03 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4686CDF3.2224.1BAB5D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4686A0D6.30052.10A7DE3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4686CDF3.2224.1BAB5D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <468734D3.9080501@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jun 2007 at 20:21, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> Wasn't there a 5-1/4 hard drive (late 80s) that did a similar thing, some kind >> of telescoping binary length set of solenoids (Ontrax?) > > Did you know Joe Koenig? He ran that outfit while it lasted, but I > didn't think that they produced anything but a prototype before they > discovered that there were fatal problems with the idea. I'm in the middle of reading "IBM's Early Computers," by Bashe, Johnson, Palmer, and Pugh. I have owned it for quite a while but never made to the time to read it. It is full of interesting stories ... from IBM's perspective, of course. Anyway, in the chapter dealing with RAMAC, it mentions that one approach they attempted was the idea mentioned above -- solenoids that are additively summed where the effect of the actuation of the solenoids is arranged as a power's of two. Although started in Feb 1958 (see p. 304), they gave up on that idea in favor of a "fluid adder" -- pumping the positioning cylinder with fixed amount of hydraulic fluid to advance the head one track. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jul 1 00:06:42 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: stuff on ebay Message-ID: Now that I have some more time to do it, I've listed some stuff on Ebay. My name there is "frotz661". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at corti-net.de Sun Jul 1 04:06:33 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 11:06:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Drum vs. Core Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Indeed, according to http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/650.html there was > 60 words of core used as a buffer between the drum and tape drives to account > for their different data rates, but which could also be used for other stuff. Well, then you have to count the LGP-30 as computer with core memory, too, because the interface to the (apparently extremly rare) magnetic tape drives (yes, there were tape drives for the LGP-30!) contained core memory as buffer. The drive would buffer the block in core so that the LGP-30 could read it with its own speed (and vice versa). Christian From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sun Jul 1 04:41:35 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 05:41:35 -0400 Subject: Rare Commodore 8296 on EBay?!?!? Message-ID: Is this really as rare as he thinks it is? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130128193985&ssPageName=M ERC_VI_RCRX_Pr3_PcY_BID_Stores_IT&refitem=130128166016&itemcount=3&refwidget loc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_w idget Greg From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 1 04:51:12 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 04:51:12 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46877910.9050105@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I thing it would probably be interesting to make a computer where the > building blocks would be tetrahedra, and you would bolt them together in > 3D configurations. Can you make an icosahedron out of tetrahedra? Hmm... a parallel Buckyball computer - now there's an idea. IIRC it's mainly octagons with a few pentagons - maybe construct the thing from octagonal computing surfaces with interconnects at the edges, then use the pentagons as way of communicating with the outside world (and routing power, cooling etc. into the inside of the device? I like a bit of sillyness with my morning coffee ;-) (does PCB fab equipment even exist that can lay out boards with anything other than a NSEW arrangement? Whilst I've seen some funny shaped PCBs, I don't think I've ever seen a mass-produced board with components at weird angles) From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 1 05:27:33 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 12:27:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rare Commodore 8296 on EBay?!?!? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7115.88.211.153.27.1183285653.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Is this really as rare as he thinks it is? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130128193985&ssPageName=M > ERC_VI_RCRX_Pr3_PcY_BID_Stores_IT&refitem=130128166016&itemcount=3&refwidget > loc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_w > idget > > Greg Well, considering it is a 220V/50Hz version found in the U.S. I guess it may be seen as 'rare' ;) Ed From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 08:02:34 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 23:02:34 +1000 Subject: Rare Commodore 8296 on EBay?!?!? References: <7115.88.211.153.27.1183285653.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <003601c7bbe0$1a1dfdb0$0100a8c0@pentium> From: "Ed Groenenberg" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: Re: Rare Commodore 8296 on EBay?!?!? >> Is this really as rare as he thinks it is? >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130128193985&ssPageName=M >> ERC_VI_RCRX_Pr3_PcY_BID_Stores_IT&refitem=130128166016&itemcount=3&refwidget >> loc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_w >> idget >> >> Greg > > > Well, considering it is a 220V/50Hz version found in the U.S. I guess it > may be seen as 'rare' ;) > > Ed Boxed as well, can't be many of those, I'd say it's about as rare as they get. cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 08:36:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 09:36:15 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <46877910.9050105@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <46877910.9050105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4687ADCF.9050108@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I thing it would probably be interesting to make a computer where the >> building blocks would be tetrahedra, and you would bolt them together >> in 3D configurations. Can you make an icosahedron out of tetrahedra? > > Hmm... a parallel Buckyball computer - now there's an idea. IIRC it's > mainly octagons with a few pentagons - maybe construct the thing from > octagonal computing surfaces with interconnects at the edges, then use > the pentagons as way of communicating with the outside world (and > routing power, cooling etc. into the inside of the device? > > I like a bit of sillyness with my morning coffee ;-) > > (does PCB fab equipment even exist that can lay out boards with anything > other than a NSEW arrangement? Whilst I've seen some funny shaped PCBs, > I don't think I've ever seen a mass-produced board with components at > weird angles) Look at a BTX-spec motherboard sometime. Peace... Sridhar From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Jul 1 09:11:26 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 07:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4686CDF3.2224.1BAB5D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4686A0D6.30052.10A7DE3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4686CDF3.2224.1BAB5D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:41:07 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Billy Pettit real disappointment > > On 30 Jun 2007 at 20:21, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> Wasn't there a 5-1/4 hard drive (late 80s) that did a similar thing, some kind >> of telescoping binary length set of solenoids (Ontrax?) > > Did you know Joe Koenig? He ran that outfit while it lasted, but I > didn't think that they produced anything but a prototype before they > discovered that there were fatal problems with the idea. Joe was > pretty proud that he wrapped the operation up cleanly, without any of > the VCs losing much. IIRC, it was a 100MB unit that they were > shooting for. Name doesn't ring a bell, I vaguely remember an inventor friend of mine (that may have known him) asking me if I thought it was a good idea. Of course this is about 20 years ago so my memory could be faulty... > > He went on to run Resonex (NMR imaging). I stayed in touch with him > for quite awhile. He passed away 15 years or so ago. A guy who > absolutely loved his work--and loved life. I was privleged to know > him. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 09:25:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 10:25:25 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4687B955.5010400@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Maybe first-year physics students should be asked to commoent on >>> Archimedes' statement :-) >> They were in my freshman physics class at Clarkson. > > Don;'t keep us (me?) in suspense :-). What conclusions did they come to? That it wouldn't matter where you stood, because you'd have to bring the end of the lever down from someplace in the sky impossible to reach. Peace... Sridhar From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jul 1 09:46:06 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 07:46:06 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? Message-ID: <22a8745a6c48755fb1632370018e2aba@valleyimplants.com> > Now, of course, such an effort would be in violation of DMCA, but it > worked back then. I'm surprised that no one did that with the Mac > ROMs--anyone know why not? Probably because they would also then need to clone the system software as well, a much bigger task for a much smaller (potential) market. Apple would have been much less likely to deal with clone makers than Microsoft was. While the system software was made freely available in the early years, it is unlikely it would have stayed that way if clone makers had been successful. For a brief period, NewTek did have a Macintosh clone with a 68030 and system software that was a hybrid of System 6 and System 7, with a user interface based on Motif. It suffered the same problems as the 1st - gen IBM clones as far as compatibility. From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Jul 1 10:17:01 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:17:01 +0100 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: <2f806cd70706291710w1afcd98vccd41a595f296aa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707010817x30af54cp2e8287cf7e04154f@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:12:50 +2500 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > > Incidentally, the 2B has a ring-detect relay inside, which asserts Ring > Indicate (pin 22) of the RS232 connector when trigger. You have to make a > few more conenctions to tbe barrier strip, in particular one to the bell > wire in the telephone cabe, and add a 3K resistor (or a Thermistor 13A?). Yes, I think i did that.. the beeb looped waiting for ring detect, and lifted dtr to answer the line. I then had a background routine that polled carrier detect and interrupted the bbs software on line drop. > > I built a box off TTL that sits on top of the 2B and which does > auto-answer (inculuding hanging up after a suitable time delay if it > looses carrier), dialing (by toggling the DTR line the right number of > times, etc. I probablty still have the scheamtics somewhere, along with > the notes I made on linking up the ring detect relay. Ingenious,, probably a bit beyond me at the time though.. > > I remember being fascinated by the kit they had available, but it was > > A lot of it seemed to be very expensive and not in particularly good > condition. indeed ... I didn't buy anything else from there.. I think they had reuters board beeb's though, which almost tempted me.. > > > tricky enough getting the 2B home to Manchester.. I seem to recall I > > It couldn't be worse than the time I took a GT40 (complete with monitor) > on a train from Bristol to London :-) I beat it several years later by carrying a BBC B, dual floppy drives, box of software, and a very heavy amcom 10MB hard drive unit in it's shipping box on the train back down to London.. I'm fairly sure I never tried carrying a monitor tht far though!! Rob From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jul 1 10:38:55 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 10:38:55 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <22a8745a6c48755fb1632370018e2aba@valleyimplants.com> References: <22a8745a6c48755fb1632370018e2aba@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070701103811.06d9e340@mail> At 09:46 AM 7/1/2007, Scott Quinn wrote: >For a brief period, NewTek did have a Macintosh clone with a 68030 and system software that was a hybrid of System 6 and System 7, "NewTek" was an Amiga company, "NewTech" was the Mac clone company. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 11:01:00 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 12:01:00 -0400 Subject: "Oddball"(LGP-30) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41705018-181F-417B-BF8B-3238C9379D48@neurotica.com> On Jun 30, 2007, at 10:48 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I remember writing programs for on of these to solve a statitical > problem > for data on a mass spectrometer. I recall waiting on power up while > it loaded the data from the metal tape( sometimes it needed to be > rebooted ). > I'd love to find one of these. I alway wanted to see how they > dealed with > the different speeds of the metal tape and the memory. There was no > exact speed control on the metal tape. It just ran from the spool > speed > with no capstan. I'd imagine they just used a phase-locked loop for clock recovery and clocked the data into the machine asynchronously. Is it more complex than that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 11:11:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 09:11:47 -0700 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <0JKG00F7DC360YE4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKG00F7DC360YE4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46876FD3.7213.43307A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jun 2007 at 9:57, Allison wrote: > This was common. The problem with rotating memory, mercury delay, > magnostrictive delay and even shift registers is they are not random > access they are sequential access They all have a fixed delay and you > wait for what you want to "come around". Programmers had to program > around that if speed was required. Hence, "plus one" addressing and SOAP on the 650. Cheers, Chuck From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Jul 1 10:39:23 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 08:39:23 -0700 Subject: (way OT)--Re: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4687CAAB.9070501@garlic.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Jason McBrien wrote: >>> The HP 100 series were some of the first laptop computers that could run >>> DOS. It had DOS, Basic, Lotus and a few other productivity apps in ROM, and >>> used the somewhat odd HP-IL bus to interface with peripherals, among them a >>> battery powered disk drive. >>> >> Hmmm... >> >> >> HPIL -> HPHIL -> + -> USB? >> | >> PCI >> (just a dash of) >> > Ummm.... (possible evolution of USB? maybe?) Sorry, forgot to mention that bit. == jd Bombeck's Rule of Medicine: Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died. From paisley at erols.com Sun Jul 1 11:48:30 2007 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 12:48:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/E Top Cover References: <2f806cd70706291710w1afcd98vccd41a595f296aa9@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70707010817x30af54cp2e8287cf7e04154f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001101c7bbff$b2413160$020a0a0a@cj2a> Were any of the Digital PDPs standardized as far as the top covers? I am looking for a PDP-8/E top cover and wondering if any other model had a similar top. Thanks. Todd Paisley From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 1 12:02:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 11:02:39 -0600 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <46877910.9050105@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <46877910.9050105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4687DE2F.4070107@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm... a parallel Buckyball computer - now there's an idea. IIRC it's > mainly octagons with a few pentagons - maybe construct the thing from > octagonal computing surfaces with interconnects at the edges, then use > the pentagons as way of communicating with the outside world (and > routing power, cooling etc. into the inside of the device? Well anything with Buckyballs is patentented by now no matter how silly. > I like a bit of sillyness with my morning coffee ;-) I still like Fuller's (sp) idea of a floating city 1 mile in raidus.Atmospheric pressure keeps it afloat. Too bad we don't have the materials to build it. ------ I don't drink coffee so I'm silly all day. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jul 1 12:07:08 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 12:07:08 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [acug0447] Fwd: Jim Butterfield passes away In-Reply-To: <695800.65130.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <695800.65130.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070701120323.06d62a68@mail> I passed the note to my friend Sheldon Leemon, and here's his tribute. - John The first computer I owned was an Atari 800 that I bought in 1979, after years of internal debate over the Ohio Scientific or Cromemco, and later the PET or TRS-80. So, I first became aware of Jim from magazines that lumped the 6502 computers together, such as Compute, that stared out as a 6502 publication, with PET, Apple, and Atari. When I was hired by Commodore in early 1982 to do a port of its Vic Invaders for the upcoming release of the Commodore 64 that fall, I had to get up to speed on Commodore computers quickly, particularly because the development machine for the 64 was a PET with a Commodore 9060 5MB hard drive (a huge boat anchor). So, I started reading the T-PUG Journal and old issues of Compute (which I had been writing for since 1980), both of which included many of Jim's articles. I thought of him as the "old man" of Commodore computing even then, since he was in his late 40's and had that big muttonchops/mustache combo. I even got to meet him at Commodore events after I had written "Mapping the 64" in 1984. He was hearty and enthusiastic, a real Canadian. But he didn't seem too thrilled with the 64 era in which money and mass sales had become the only point of the company. Jim stood for the era in which the world of personal computers belonged exclusively to a fraternity of amateurs (in the sense of the original Latin), eager to share rather than cash in. Although he clearly enjoyed his local celebrity, it never crossed his mind to try to make a fortune from it. His passing confirms that era is gone for good. --Sheldon Leemon sleemon at gmail.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 1 12:10:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 11:10:39 -0600 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4687B955.5010400@gmail.com> References: <4687B955.5010400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4687E00F.1040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > That it wouldn't matter where you stood, because you'd have to bring the > end of the lever down from someplace in the sky impossible to reach. The law still holds regardless. That was the whole point of the saying -- did any body remember that? . > Peace... Sridhar PS. The world was a whole lot smaller then too, ask Atlas about that some time. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 12:57:10 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 13:57:10 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4687E00F.1040301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4687B955.5010400@gmail.com> <4687E00F.1040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4687EAF6.9070101@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: >> That it wouldn't matter where you stood, because you'd have to bring >> the end of the lever down from someplace in the sky impossible to reach. > > The law still holds regardless. That was the whole point of the > saying -- did any body remember that? You might be able to move it by a nanometer. The solar wind might move it more. We're just too puny to have much of an effect. That was the conclusion we came to. > PS. The world was a whole lot smaller then too, ask Atlas about that > some time. No it wasn't. Ask Eratosthenes. 8-) Eratosthenes and Archimedes lived at the same time. The one who had drastically underestimated the size of the Earth was Pythagoras, 300 years earlier. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 14:37:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 15:37:53 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/E Top Cover In-Reply-To: <001101c7bbff$b2413160$020a0a0a@cj2a> References: <2f806cd70706291710w1afcd98vccd41a595f296aa9@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70707010817x30af54cp2e8287cf7e04154f@mail.gmail.com> <001101c7bbff$b2413160$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <2CC4B33E-D878-45E2-BA77-B238AF383D12@neurotica.com> On Jul 1, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Todd Paisley wrote: > Were any of the Digital PDPs standardized as far as the top > covers? I am > looking for a PDP-8/E top cover and wondering if any other model had a > similar top. Thanks. I've never seen that cover design on any other DEC machine. The 8/ e top cover is designed to fit around the power supply...not very generic. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 1 14:37:09 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:37:09 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46852F66.29193.1B657B1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com>, <575131af0706291243u4983997akffd8c88d756b4baf@mail.gmail.com>, <468586DE.8040509@oldskool.org> <46852F66.29193.1B657B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46880265.6060805@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I should hastily add that the Compaq story does seem to smack a bit > of "urban legend", so there may be other takes on it. But that's > what I heard at the time... It's been confirmed several times, actually, including Robert X. Cringley's documentary Triumph of the Nerds. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 1 14:38:47 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:38:47 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <20070629162744.V17251@shell.lmi.net> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070628183218.Y62520@shell.lmi.net> <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> <20070629162744.V17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <468802C7.2060207@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > ALMOST everything. > Check the 1983? PC-WORLD "round up the compatibles", in which like every > other non-IBM machine, the Compaq filed to be able to run the "OEM IBM > ONLY" edition of Xeno-Copy. What about that version made it "IBM ONLY"? Checking for the string "IBM" somewhere in ROM? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 1 14:39:50 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:39:50 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <20070629164330.A17251@shell.lmi.net> References: <608355.75534.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164330.A17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46880306.70900@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > All early versions of XenoCopy would run on an 8088, but not 8086 or > above, due to my failure to prepare for a change in the size of the > pre-fetch buffer. Wow -- prefetch buffer was only 2 bytes larger in 8086, what in your code was dependent on that?? Self-modifying code maybe? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 15:08:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 13:08:05 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46880265.6060805@oldskool.org> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com>, <46852F66.29193.1B657B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <46880265.6060805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4687A735.26121.50B62FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2007 at 14:37, Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I should hastily add that the Compaq story does seem to smack a bit > > of "urban legend", so there may be other takes on it. But that's > > what I heard at the time... > > It's been confirmed several times, actually, including Robert X. > Cringley's documentary Triumph of the Nerds. Well, that may be, but I've heard an alternate version from a ex- Compaq employee that says that it's only partially accurate. According to this fellow, the first team (the "dirty" group) never looked at the source code for the BIOS, but wrote their spec by "black boxing" BIOS functions. That would be considerably harder to do, I'd think. Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Jul 1 15:08:16 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 21:08:16 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706301702.l5UH15BO093839@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706301702.l5UH15BO093839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0C399A34-078E-49E8-ADCE-8897932DDF3D@microspot.co.uk> > > From: "Mike Hatch" > >> Its got Ampex >> TM4 mag tape drives (not industry standard 7 or 9 track, these are >> ten track units with hubs the same design as professional audio >> tapes >> and the 2 and 3 inch wide video tapes once used by TV broadcasters). > > Our SDS9300 had TM4 drives but I don't remember them being 2 and 3 > inch > wide, I thought they were 0.5 inch, but then that was 35years ago. Yes they are half inch. What I meant was that they are not 'industry standard' half inch tape with large expanding hubs with the write protect ring in a groove in the reel. Instead the centres are much smaller, allowing 3200 feet on the same outside diameter spool as a 2400 foot reel using the same thickness tape (not the ultra thin tape). The reels are aluminium, not plastic, their centres have three notches which three matching 'fingers' within the hub fit into, holding the reel onto the hub. Some TM4s were fitted with small expanding hubs (the ones on the Leo and maybe others), but this did not fit 'industry standard' reels. The same design of hub is used on tapes of quarter inch, half inch, one inch, two inch and three inch, maybe other sizes too. I do not mean domestic quarter inch tape recorders, these use a simple nut on a stud. The write protect ring protrudes from the back of the reel, and three projections on the ring fit into three holes in the reel. The tapes themselves have a metalised leader which is electrically sensed by the deck. They also have a reflective early end of tape marker like later tapes, and I think they have a metalised leader at the end of tape, though I've never unreeled 3200 feet of tape to find out. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 1 15:28:42 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 13:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46880306.70900@oldskool.org> References: <608355.75534.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164330.A17251@shell.lmi.net> <46880306.70900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070701132548.A104@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Wow -- prefetch buffer was only 2 bytes larger in 8086, what in your > code was dependent on that?? Self-modifying code maybe? Yep. I already admitted how I screwed up: On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, I wrote: > How would you write a subroutine (for C) that would permit calling an > INT that is defined at runtime? (I didn't know any better ways at the > time) > . . . > MOV BX, offset stepon3 > INC BX > MOV [BX], AL ; change the INT to the one specified in AL > . . . > stepon3: INT 00h > . . . > > It is easily fixed to handle a different prefetch buffer size by: > . . . > . . . > MOV BX, offset stepon3 > INC BX > MOV [BX], AL ; change the INT to the one specified in AL > . . . > JMP SHORT $ +2 ; or JMP stepon3 ; clears the prefetch buffer > ; and does little else > stepon3: INT 00h > . . . > > > "Do NOT ever use self-modifying code. It may not happen for a LONG > time, but it WILL eventually come back to bite your foot off." From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 1 16:13:57 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:13:57 -0700 Subject: "Oddball"(LGP-30) In-Reply-To: <41705018-181F-417B-BF8B-3238C9379D48@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire > >On Jun 30, 2007, at 10:48 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>I remember writing programs for on of these to solve a statitical problem >>for data on a mass spectrometer. I recall waiting on power up while >>it loaded the data from the metal tape( sometimes it needed to be >>rebooted ). >>I'd love to find one of these. I alway wanted to see how they dealed with >>the different speeds of the metal tape and the memory. There was no >>exact speed control on the metal tape. It just ran from the spool speed >>with no capstan. > > I'd imagine they just used a phase-locked loop for clock recovery and >clocked the data into the machine asynchronously. Is it more complex than >that? Hi I don't think that would work. First, the calculator had no RAM other than the delay lines. The metal tape had 2 rows of holes, one was clock and the other was the data. The motor that ran the tape was just a free running DC motor. The only thing I could think is that it may have buffered just a few bits and then burst them into the delay line as the slot for them curculated around. I suspect that the delay line was slower than a single bit of the tape but faster than 4 or so bits of the tape. Remember, the delay line has a fixed delay. The tape had a variable delay. It ran faster as the tape got near the end. There was no speed control on the motor. I was curious about this at the time and confirmed it with an oscilloscope. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! http://mobile.msn.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 16:17:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:17:21 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <20070701132548.A104@shell.lmi.net> References: <608355.75534.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <46880306.70900@oldskool.org>, <20070701132548.A104@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4687B771.28336.54ACCFC@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2007 at 13:28, Fred Cisin wrote: > How would you write a subroutine (for C) that would permit calling an > INT that is defined at runtime? (I didn't know any better ways at the > time) > > . . . > MOV BX, offset stepon3 > INC BX > MOV [BX], AL ; change the INT to the one specified in AL > . . . > > stepon3: INT 00h Why not PUSHF CALL FAR...? There are cases where self-modifying code is unavoidable. For example, on an 8080, 8085 IN our OUT instruction where the port is not known ahead of time. Although modifying the code, as in: LDA PORTNUM STA INCOCD+1 INCODE: IN $-$ works--it gets nasty if what you're writing is boot code in ROM. You have to move your code to RAM to do this. I don't know if the V20 prefetch would kill you in emulation mode on this sort of thing. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jul 1 04:35:06 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 10:35:06 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1183282506.11794.0.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-06-30 at 23:57 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > [ROM BASIC] > > > > FURTHERMORE...what was the last computer *any* to > > > have it? > > > > I'm going to guess Acorn Archimedes here. > > You can get later than that, even sticking with the ARM chip. I am pretty > sure the Bush internet set-top box has BBC BASIC In ROM (I forget the key > combination to get the '*' prompt, but it'll be on the web somewhere). It does; I have one and I've had BBC Basic out of it. Apparently if you've got a parallel-port Zip disk you can boot plain ordinary RiscOS on it. Good fun. Internally it's basically an Arm development board with a few unpopulated sockets. Gordon From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 1 16:26:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4687EAF6.9070101@gmail.com> References: <4687B955.5010400@gmail.com> <4687E00F.1040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <4687EAF6.9070101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070701142350.N1660@shell.lmi.net> > > PS. The world was a whole lot smaller then too, ask Atlas about that > > some time. On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > No it wasn't. Ask Eratosthenes. 8-) > Eratosthenes and Archimedes lived at the same time. The one who had > drastically underestimated the size of the Earth was Pythagoras, 300 > years earlier. . . . and again by Columbus. Everyone who wasn't calling 976 psychic lines knew that the earth was round, and how large it was, and therefore why WEST was not a practical direction to go to get to the indies. Columbus had a crackpot idea that the earth was about 1/3 its present size, resulting in him finding some land in the way. From w6nct at arrl.net Sun Jul 1 16:07:55 2007 From: w6nct at arrl.net (Vern) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:07:55 -0700 Subject: S-100 and other items looking for a new home Message-ID: <001701c7bc23$e560c4b0$8002a8c0@Win2kLinux> Greetings, I am new to this group, so I hope that I am doing this correctly. I have a bunch of computer parts looking for a new home, many are from vintage computers. Most of the initial things I have posted are S-100 PCBs (memory, I/O, interfaces,...), many of which include documentation, and some even include software. I also have a NorthStar Horizon chassis (including linear P/S, motherboard, but no top cover or drives). There are other items as well, including a VME chassis; and I expect to have several Heathkit items posted soon. Unless specified, I believe that all of these items were operational prior to being boxed (several years ago), and still appear to be in good condition. I am enquiring with several people I have found on the Web, hoping to find one or more interested parties. I have considered posting them on eBay; but thought that I'd offer them directly first. These items are located in Southern California; so shipping outside that area may be a (minor) concern (for larger or heavier items). At the very minimum, I am interested in recovering the cost for S/H; but would prefer to get a bit more to help with my purchasing a new laptop. I have set up a temporary Yahoo Group to help with showing and describing the items; that way, it won't impact the bandwidth of sites such as this one. The Group is called "Verns_Stuff" (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Verns_Stuff). If you have any interest in S-100, VME, or Heathkit computer items, please drop by. If you are not interested, but you are aware of other individuals or groups that might be, please feel free to forward this information on to them. Thank-you. Vern. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 1 16:42:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <468802C7.2060207@oldskool.org> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070628183218.Y62520@shell.lmi.net> <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> <20070629162744.V17251@shell.lmi.net> <468802C7.2060207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070701143948.M1660@shell.lmi.net> "OEM IBM ONLY" edition On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > > What about that version made it "IBM ONLY"? Checking for the string > "IBM" somewhere in ROM? close - calling a routine in the BASIC ROMs From spc at conman.org Sun Jul 1 16:44:13 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:44:13 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4685EF5D.9000608@gmail.com> <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070701214413.GC32171@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > >>> Can you make an icosahedron out of tetrahedra? > >> No - at least not assuming you mean a solid regular icosahedron and > >> regular tetrahedra. [...] > > No, I'm not sure I meant a solid icosahedron. I was only thinking as > > far as a tetrahedron has equilateral triangles as faces, and so does > > an icosahedron. > > Then yes, there's no reason you couldn't take 20 tetrahedra and > position them so as to result in something that's basically a > tetrahedron constructed, inward-pointing, on each face of an > icosahedron. (It might not be all that easy to realize physically, but > that's a separate issue.) Won't work. I tried doing that with a Magnetix kit, and the results weren't encouraging: http://www.flummux.org/ico1.jpg http://www.flummux.org/ico2.jpg You can see the gaps there the struts aren't long enough due to the angles involved. I have, however, made a regular icosahedron that's *very stable*, albeit *very hollow*. -spc (Magnetix are basically plastic struts with magnets at the end, and a bunch of metal balls, and very fun to play with) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jul 1 16:56:30 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 22:56:30 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/E Top Cover In-Reply-To: <001101c7bbff$b2413160$020a0a0a@cj2a> References: <2f806cd70706291710w1afcd98vccd41a595f296aa9@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70707010817x30af54cp2e8287cf7e04154f@mail.gmail.com> <001101c7bbff$b2413160$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <4688230E.8040406@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/07/2007 17:48, Todd Paisley wrote: > Were any of the Digital PDPs standardized as far as the top covers? I am > looking for a PDP-8/E top cover and wondering if any other model had a > similar top. Thanks. I don't know of any other machine that used the same cover, but I find mine a bit awkward , so instead I have a cover made out of a folded piece of transparent polycarbonate. Looks good at exhibitions :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Jul 1 17:01:47 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 23:01:47 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <1183282506.11794.0.camel@elric> References: <1183282506.11794.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707011501r5ceffc91p9fbec79762092186@mail.gmail.com> On 01/07/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Sat, 2007-06-30 at 23:57 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > You can get later than that, even sticking with the ARM chip. I am pretty > > sure the Bush internet set-top box has BBC BASIC In ROM (I forget the key > > combination to get the '*' prompt, but it'll be on the web somewhere). > > It does; I have one and I've had BBC Basic out of it. Apparently if > you've got a parallel-port Zip disk you can boot plain ordinary RiscOS > on it. Good fun. Internally it's basically an Arm development board > with a few unpopulated sockets. Ooh. I never knew that - the number of those I've ignored as uninteresting... I'll have to snag the next one (and the next zip drive) I see... So.. How do I add an econet interface to it? ;-) Rob From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jul 1 16:59:48 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:59:48 -0700 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <7881501a2066e44b32f9359487fda91a@valleyimplants.com> > At 09:46 AM 7/1/2007, Scott Quinn wrote: >> For a brief period, NewTek did have a Macintosh clone with a 68030 >> and system software that was a hybrid of System 6 and System 7, > > "NewTek" was an Amiga company, "NewTech" was the Mac clone company. > > - John Hmm-the reviewer in the magazine I have must have had spell-check on, as it came out "NewTek Duet" every time. Explains why I couldn't find much else on it. From paisley at erols.com Sun Jul 1 17:17:36 2007 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 18:17:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/E Top Cover References: <2f806cd70706291710w1afcd98vccd41a595f296aa9@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70707010817x30af54cp2e8287cf7e04154f@mail.gmail.com><001101c7bbff$b2413160$020a0a0a@cj2a> <4688230E.8040406@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5e4501c7bc2d$a2e2a0e0$020a0a0a@cj2a> > > Were any of the Digital PDPs standardized as far as the top covers? I am > > looking for a PDP-8/E top cover and wondering if any other model had a > > similar top. Thanks. > > I don't know of any other machine that used the same cover, but I find > mine a bit awkward , so instead I have a cover made out of a folded > piece of transparent polycarbonate. Looks good at exhibitions :-) Wow. That that would be really neat! I wonder if yours served the same purpose when it was new! Todd Paisley From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 1 17:21:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 15:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46880265.6060805@oldskool.org> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com>, <575131af0706291243u4983997akffd8c88d756b4baf@mail.gmail.com>, <468586DE.8040509@oldskool.org> <46852F66.29193.1B657B1@cclist.sydex.com> <46880265.6060805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070701151951.A1660@shell.lmi.net> > It's been confirmed several times, actually, including Robert X. > Cringley's documentary Triumph of the Nerds. Cringely writes very entertaining stories, but his strict historical accuracy is sometimes questionable. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 1 17:38:20 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:38:20 -0700 Subject: Items available for trade In-Reply-To: References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629212355.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685DDBE.9060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629214810.C17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685F34A.80809@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <46882CDC.9010709@sbcglobal.net> I have been sorting through my storage buildings trying to make room for more stuff coming in and have the following items for trade -- for smaller & lighter items! I have not tested or powered on any of these so don't know if they work, but they are complete. 1. Control Data, CPI, 9 track reel to reel tape drive, with cables. 2. Hewlett Packard 7979 front loading 9 track tape drive. 3. Hewlett Packard 7980S front loading 9 track tape drive. 4. Hewlett Packard 7937 disc drive. 5. DEC RA81 disc drive, with cables. 6. DEC RL02 cartridge drive, this one may be for parts, it's missing the door latch parts, but otherwise looks complete. 7. DEC PDP/11-44 computer. This has the following boards and came with the RA81 drive: M7090 M7903 THROUGH M7908 M8743 (four of these memory boards) M7762 M7258 M7800 TC131 TAPE CONTROLLER M7527 M7585 M7587 M9302 If anyone's interested, just email me. Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 17:25:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 23:25:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Panasonic luggable Message-ID: While looking for another part (actually a replacement door for a Tandon 5.25" drive) in the depths of my workshop, I came across a machine I'd half-forgotten owening, and wondered if anyone recognises it. It's made by Panasonic, and is a luggable. The carrying handle is one one side (not the back, as is usual for such machines). The front of the machine comes off, and is an XT-layout keyboard (alas F9 and F10 are missing on my unit, but I'll bet that's what the missing keys should be). The front of the main unit has a 9" monochrome CRT, and to the right of it 2 vertical half-height 5.25" drive bays. On my machine the left one contains a floppy drive, the right one a Seagate hard drive. To the left of the CRT is a pull-out stretchy cable ending in a mini-DIN plug that fits the hack of the keyboard On the back are the normal mains connnector, switch and fuse. A DE9 connector marked RGB (CGA pinout?) a 36 pin microribbon printer port and a DB25 serial port. On top of the unit is a thermal printer. It comes apart by removing numerous screws. In the bottom of the machine, accessible from under the chassis is a large PCB. It contains an 8088 with a 40 pin DIL socket alongside it (8087?), 256K DRAM, 8250 serial chip, 8255 parallel chip, 6845 CRT controller, a PQFP surface=mount device alongside it (video circuitry), 8257 DMA chip, etc. Basically, what you'd expect to find on a PC/XT motherboard. Theere are 2 62 pin expansion slots, one of which contains the hard disk controller (looks to be a generic PC/XT part), the other contains a PCB with 512K RAM (I would guess only 640K of the totla memory is useable) and a real time clock chip. The printer has its own cotnrol electronics based round a 8050 microcontroller. The keyboard contians an 8048. Does anyone recognise this machine? -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Jul 1 17:39:52 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 23:39:52 +0100 Subject: Apricot F1 software needed References: Message-ID: <010001c7bc30$beb4a3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Speaking of Apricots... I've got an F1 I purchased from ebay >and it came with a full set of manuals, but no software. Can >anyone help me out? I gave away almost all of my Apricot collection (and software) some time ago, however you should find something useful over at "www.actapricot.org". TTFN - Pete. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 17:43:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 23:43:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modem 13A Message-ID: I also came across that Modem 13A that I mentioned a few days ago, the one that's a plinth under a normal 746 telephone. The phone part is pretty normal, apart from having 2 buttons on top, in front of the handset rest, labelled 'TELE' and 'DATA'. They are interlocked so that presing one releases the other, and both are released buy the heandset rest. The 'TELE' button operates a microswitch, the connections of which go nowhere, the 'DATA' buttom operates a multi-pole changeover switch, again most of the contacts aren't used. The rest of the phone is what I'd expect in a rotary-dial 746. The base of the plinth comes off by 4 captive screws. Inside is a PCB, component side down (so you can see the components when the base is removed), also hald in by a further 4 captive screws. There are 8 wires from the modem PCB up into the phone sectionm and a label inside the base seems to indicate that 2 of them are used to externally power the modem (it can be line-powered) -- these wires go to 2 otherwise unused terminals on a terminal strip, 4 of the wires are to be linked in 2 pairs (again done on said terminal strip) and the remaining 2 wires go to the line (presumably via that DATA switch. There are 4 terminals on the PCB that go to a cable that comes out the back. The label gives the 'CCITT circuit numbers' for each terminal, I've not looked them up yet, but they're going to be normal RS232 signals. The PCB contians a number of discrete transistors, a number of 8-lead TO99 cansm which I susepct (from the part number and connections) to be 748 op-amps and a single 14 pin DIL device, which might be something like a 7403 (???) And a lot of pot-core inductors and strange-value poiystyrene capacitors, presumably for filtering. -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Jul 1 17:44:35 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 23:44:35 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: Message-ID: <010301c7bc31$661a0870$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....The earlier assertion that it was miles away from an IBM PC >>just isn't true.... Oh, but it is....just take a look at the Apricot Technical Reference manual. > Thinking about it more, my statement about peripherals might be >stretching it. I don't *recall* any problems with 3rd party >peripherals like modems and whatnot.... Well, the Apricots had a bog standard RS232 connector and the printer interface was standard "Centronics" (though it used a female Centronics connector rather than a DB-25 as many other machines used). Also, since the thing didn't have an ISA bus, any internal expansion options would be designed specifically for the "Apricot bus" and have the appropriate drivers.... >....The F1 doesn't look like it has compatible connectors for standard IBM >PC peripherals, but ISTR that the Xi *did* have ISA slots.... No, the "F" series machines use the same "Apricot" expansion bus as the earlier PC & Xi and the later Xen series. The first Apricot machine to have an ISA bus inside was the "Xen-i", which was also Apricot's first (mostly) IBM compatible machine. >....The F1 wasn't intended to be expanded very much.... That's because the "F" series machines were primarily intended to be "home" machines. TTFN - Pete. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 1 17:50:43 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:50:43 -0600 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4687EAF6.9070101@gmail.com> References: <4687B955.5010400@gmail.com> <4687E00F.1040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <4687EAF6.9070101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46882FC3.6040200@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > You might be able to move it by a nanometer. The solar wind might move > it more. We're just too puny to have much of an effect. That was the > conclusion we came to. Still let us not forget what real levers could build. The Pyramids and Stonehenge and Easter Island Heads come to mind. I put more faith in that in that rather than some 'alien' construction. > > No it wasn't. Ask Eratosthenes. 8-) I would ask him but I can't under stand a word he said. It is all greek to me. :) > Eratosthenes and Archimedes lived at the same time. The one who had > drastically underestimated the size of the Earth was Pythagoras, 300 > years earlier. PS. The greeks had a lot a creative ideas. I wonder if they did not have slaves, they would have developed higher mechanical engineering and perhaps development of a mechanical calculating engine? > Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 1 17:57:02 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 15:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070701155346.N1660@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > While looking for another part (actually a replacement door for a Tandon > 5.25" drive) are people still breaking the pins? > It's made by Panasonic, and is a luggable. The carrying handle is one one > . . . > Does anyone recognise this machine? Sounds like the Panasonic "Senior Partner". I think that digibarn has a webpage of one. and maybe Uncle Roger? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jul 1 18:10:14 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 00:10:14 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/E Top Cover In-Reply-To: <5e4501c7bc2d$a2e2a0e0$020a0a0a@cj2a> References: <2f806cd70706291710w1afcd98vccd41a595f296aa9@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70707010817x30af54cp2e8287cf7e04154f@mail.gmail.com><001101c7bbff$b2413160$020a0a0a@cj2a> <4688230E.8040406@dunnington.plus.com> <5e4501c7bc2d$a2e2a0e0$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <46883456.30503@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/07/2007 23:17, Todd Paisley wrote: >> I don't know of any other machine that used the same cover, but I find >> mine a bit awkward , so instead I have a cover made out of a folded >> piece of transparent polycarbonate. Looks good at exhibitions :-) > > Wow. That that would be really neat! I wonder if yours served the same > purpose when it was new! When I got it, it had the normal metal cover, but the foam glued to the inside to press on the boards, had gone the way of all computer foam, so I had to replace it. The polycarbonate cover was cut from a larger piece on the occasion of an exhibition at the University. I had the machine running a simple demo, and the cover was off so students could see the boards and I could point out the major parts. It's rather fiddly to keep putting the cover on and taking it off, however the laboratory superintendent was a bit concerned about students poking their fingers in (or dropping debris) so he found this large sheet of pre-folded polycarb, which he donated. A little extra work after the exhibition made it a better fit, and added ventilation, so I kept it that way. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 18:17:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:17:57 -0700 Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <20070701155346.N1660@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20070701155346.N1660@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4687D3B5.7783.5B9366F@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2007 at 15:57, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > While looking for another part (actually a replacement door for a Tandon > > 5.25" drive) > > are people still breaking the pins? ...or losing them. I replaced the last door pin on a Tandon TM-100- 4M with a section of 14 ga. stainless bicycle spoke. Worked fine. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun Jul 1 19:05:49 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:05:49 -0700 Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0ba201c7bc3c$bfe787f0$6501a8c0@NFORCE4> > Does anyone recognise this machine? Sounds exactly like the Panasonic Sr. Partner in my collection: http://www.vintage-computer.com/panasonicsr.shtml Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Jul 1 19:09:57 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 01:09:57 +0100 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <46882FC3.6040200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4687B955.5010400@gmail.com> <4687E00F.1040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <4687EAF6.9070101@gmail.com> <46882FC3.6040200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707011709p613a3fc4p24fbbacadaf2e33c@mail.gmail.com> On 01/07/07, woodelf wrote: > I wonder if they did not have slaves, they would have developed > higher mechanical engineering and perhaps development of a mechanical > calculating engine? > Like this one? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 1 19:29:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 18:29:49 -0600 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70707011709p613a3fc4p24fbbacadaf2e33c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4687B955.5010400@gmail.com> <4687E00F.1040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <4687EAF6.9070101@gmail.com> <46882FC3.6040200@jetnet.ab.ca> <2f806cd70707011709p613a3fc4p24fbbacadaf2e33c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <468846FD.2030305@jetnet.ab.ca> Rob wrote: > On 01/07/07, woodelf wrote: >> I wonder if they did not have slaves, they would have developed >> higher mechanical engineering and perhaps development of a mechanical >> calculating engine? > Like this one? > I was thinking of something more digital than that.They developed philosophy and out of that came digital logic. In hind sight the computers seem to have developed because of punched paper - cards or tape and that item the greeks never had. Could the abacus be modified to calculate mechanicaly by the use of paper tape, as the was the model of calculating at the time? From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jul 1 19:48:53 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:48:53 -0400 Subject: Bob Rosenbloom In-Reply-To: Message from Bob Rosenbloom of "Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:38:20 PDT." <46882CDC.9010709@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >5. DEC RA81 disc drive, with cables. > >6. DEC RL02 cartridge drive, this one may be for parts, it's missing the >door latch parts, > but otherwise looks complete. > >7. DEC PDP/11-44 computer. This has the following boards and came with >the RA81 drive: Just curious, where are you located? (I'm on the east coast) -brad From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 1 20:31:33 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 18:31:33 -0700 Subject: Items available for trade In-Reply-To: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> Brad Parker wrote: > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> 5. DEC RA81 disc drive, with cables. >> >> 6. DEC RL02 cartridge drive, this one may be for parts, it's missing the >> door latch parts, >> but otherwise looks complete. >> >> 7. DEC PDP/11-44 computer. This has the following boards and came with >> the RA81 drive Just curious, where are you located? >> (I'm on the east coast) >> >> -brad I'm located in Santa Cruz, California. I'm willing to work with shipping if needed but the stuff is NOT light. Some photos of the stuff can be found at: http://www.dvq.com/trade/ Also, you can see the things I like to collect on the main site http://www.dvq.com Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 1 20:58:00 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:58:00 -0600 Subject: Items available for trade In-Reply-To: <46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com> <46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Also, you can see the things I like to collect on the main site > http://www.dvq.com I like the computer ads. What is the story about there being no ads from the year 1967? > Bob PS. How much was shipping on the IBM 1130 if you don't mind me asking? From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 1 21:01:31 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 21:01:31 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <4687A735.26121.50B62FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com>, <46852F66.29193.1B657B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <46880265.6060805@oldskool.org> <4687A735.26121.50B62FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46885C7B.5080302@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, that may be, but I've heard an alternate version from a ex- > Compaq employee that says that it's only partially accurate. > According to this fellow, the first team (the "dirty" group) never > looked at the source code for the BIOS, but wrote their spec by > "black boxing" BIOS functions. That would be considerably harder to > do, I'd think. Yes, and would take considerably longer than a year, I'd imagine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 1 21:02:12 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 21:02:12 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <20070701151951.A1660@shell.lmi.net> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com>, <575131af0706291243u4983997akffd8c88d756b4baf@mail.gmail.com>, <468586DE.8040509@oldskool.org> <46852F66.29193.1B657B1@cclist.sydex.com> <46880265.6060805@oldskool.org> <20070701151951.A1660@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46885CA4.5040108@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >> It's been confirmed several times, actually, including Robert X. >> Cringley's documentary Triumph of the Nerds. > > Cringely writes very entertaining stories, but his strict historical > accuracy is sometimes questionable. I did write "including" and not "solely". :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 1 21:03:30 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 21:03:30 -0500 Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46885CF2.6050404@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone recognise this machine? Panasonic Sr. Partner, as others have said. I have two (although one is a bit flaky, it locks up for no reason sometimes). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 21:31:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 22:31:54 -0400 Subject: "Oddball"(LGP-30) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FF895E8-82CF-446B-BB1C-5E531BC70FD3@neurotica.com> On Jul 1, 2007, at 5:13 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> I remember writing programs for on of these to solve a >>> statitical problem >>> for data on a mass spectrometer. I recall waiting on power up while >>> it loaded the data from the metal tape( sometimes it needed to >>> be rebooted ). >>> I'd love to find one of these. I alway wanted to see how they >>> dealed with >>> the different speeds of the metal tape and the memory. There was no >>> exact speed control on the metal tape. It just ran from the >>> spool speed >>> with no capstan. >> >> I'd imagine they just used a phase-locked loop for clock >> recovery and clocked the data into the machine asynchronously. >> Is it more complex than that? > > Hi > I don't think that would work. First, the calculator had no RAM other > than the delay lines. The metal tape had 2 rows of holes, one was > clock and the other was the data. The motor that ran the tape was > just a free running DC motor. The only thing I could think is that it > may have buffered just a few bits and then burst them into the > delay line as the slot for them curculated around. I suspect that the > delay line was slower than a single bit of the tape but faster than > 4 or so bits of the tape. > Remember, the delay line has a fixed delay. The tape had a variable > delay. It ran faster as the tape got near the end. There was > no speed control on the motor. I was curious about this at the time > and confirmed it with an oscilloscope. Ahhhhhhhh I see...so it's nowhere near as simple as I thought. Wow...how DID they get away with that?? What could they have used as a buffer, a few bits of core? Flip-flops? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From paisley at erols.com Sun Jul 1 21:33:52 2007 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 22:33:52 -0400 Subject: Items available for trade References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com><46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> <46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <622201c7bc51$6e5dc380$020a0a0a@cj2a> > Also, you can see the things I like to collect on the main site > http://www.dvq.com In the DEC ad from 1968: http://www.dvq.com/ads/dec_sa_4_68.jpg what is the piece of equipment that is in the third row from the left, second one down? It looks like a mini computer built into a table, but the front panel is angled upwards. Todd Paisley From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 1 21:36:04 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 21:36:04 -0500 Subject: HP FAB boards Message-ID: <000b01c7bc51$bdef06c0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Would anyone happen to have a spare FAB board or two for the 21MX/1000 boxes? One of mine is physically damaged and I'd like to keep that particular box running. I'll gladly trade or buy for one.... Jay West From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 1 21:48:03 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:48:03 -0600 Subject: Items available for trade In-Reply-To: <622201c7bc51$6e5dc380$020a0a0a@cj2a> References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com><46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> <46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca> <622201c7bc51$6e5dc380$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <46886763.40308@jetnet.ab.ca> Todd Paisley wrote: > http://www.dvq.com/ads/dec_sa_4_68.jpg > > what is the piece of equipment that is in the third row from the left, > second one down? It looks like a mini computer built into a table, but the > front panel is angled upwards. I am guessing after reading the ad, it is a PDP 8 -multianalyzer. It looks sorta like PDP 8 something there. > Todd Paisley > From vrs at msn.com Sun Jul 1 21:48:39 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 19:48:39 -0700 Subject: Items available for trade References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com><46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net><46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca> <622201c7bc51$6e5dc380$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <0c2d01c7bc53$7f3fe5f0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> > http://www.dvq.com/ads/dec_sa_4_68.jpg > > what is the piece of equipment that is in the third row from the left, > second one down? It looks like a mini computer built into a table, but > the > front panel is angled upwards. > > Todd Paisley It looks like a table-top PDP-8/I, to me. Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 22:02:28 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 23:02:28 -0400 Subject: Items available for trade In-Reply-To: <46886763.40308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com><46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> <46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca> <622201c7bc51$6e5dc380$020a0a0a@cj2a> <46886763.40308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2007, at 10:48 PM, woodelf wrote: >> http://www.dvq.com/ads/dec_sa_4_68.jpg >> what is the piece of equipment that is in the third row from the >> left, >> second one down? It looks like a mini computer built into a >> table, but the >> front panel is angled upwards. > > I am guessing after reading the ad, it is a PDP 8 -multianalyzer. > It looks sorta like PDP 8 something there. It is a PDP-8/S. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 1 22:10:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 21:10:23 -0600 Subject: Items available for trade In-Reply-To: References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com><46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> <46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca> <622201c7bc51$6e5dc380$020a0a0a@cj2a> <46886763.40308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46886C9F.30608@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 1, 2007, at 10:48 PM, woodelf wrote: >>> http://www.dvq.com/ads/dec_sa_4_68.jpg >>> what is the piece of equipment that is in the third row from the left, >>> second one down? It looks like a mini computer built into a table, >>> but the >>> front panel is angled upwards. >> >> I am guessing after reading the ad, it is a PDP 8 -multianalyzer. >> It looks sorta like PDP 8 something there. > > It is a PDP-8/S. I've only known the rack mount version.I stand corrected. > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 1 22:40:20 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:40:20 -0700 Subject: Items available for trade In-Reply-To: <46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com> <46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> <46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <468873A4.90408@sbcglobal.net> woodelf wrote: > > I like the computer ads. What is the story about there being no ads > from the year 1967? I just don't happen to have any magazines from 1967. As I find old mags, I try and scan the most interesting ads. > > PS. How much was shipping on the IBM 1130 if you don't mind me > asking? > The final total was over $3000 with almost $900 for someone to build the crate. The ocean shipping was about $1000 and the rest for land shipping, and customs. Bob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 22:47:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 23:47:16 -0400 Subject: Items available for trade In-Reply-To: <46886C9F.30608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com> <46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> <46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca> <622201c7bc51$6e5dc380$020a0a0a@cj2a> <46886763.40308@jetnet.ab.ca> <46886C9F.30608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 7/1/07, woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> http://www.dvq.com/ads/dec_sa_4_68.jpg > >>> what is the piece of equipment that is in the third row from the left, > >>> second one down? It looks like a mini computer built into a table, > > > > It is a PDP-8/S. > > I've only known the rack mount version.I stand corrected. > > -Dave I've seen pictures of the racked version, I have a square table-top version (black cover, approximately the same size as a table-top -8/e, but I've never seen the pedestal -8/S before. I know how the switches can be angled like that - unlike the -8/e or even the -8/i and -8/L, the -8/S has two boards for its front panel - one is a stubble board with the switches on it, then the board for the lights occupies row two, then hangs over the top of the switch board in row one. It's not difficult to imagine them making a modified switch board with the switches parallel to the backplane instead of perpendicular. Has anyone ever seen one of those in person? I'm kinda wondering if they ever sold any or just mocked it up for the brochure. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jul 1 23:07:16 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 00:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <20070701214413.GC32171@brevard.conman.org> References: <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4685EF5D.9000608@gmail.com> <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070701214413.GC32171@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200707020409.AAA07977@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Then yes, there's no reason you couldn't take 20 tetrahedra and >> position them so as to result in something that's basically a >> tetrahedron constructed, inward-pointing, on each face of an >> icosahedron. > Won't work. I tried doing that with a Magnetix kit, and the results > weren't encouraging: [...JPGs...] Interesting. I *thought* the face-to-face angle of an icosahedron was more than twice that of a tetrahedron. I need to do a careful working-out of it, I guess. Thanks for the correction, and apologies for the misinformation. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From grant at stockly.com Sun Jul 1 23:44:12 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:44:12 -0800 Subject: VTL Listing Altair 680 Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070701203143.04cc7938@pop.1and1.com> I just typed up the listing for VTL but I'm missing a few lines. I need to know what line #179, #239, and #529. I'd like to know the entire line. If anyone has access to the VTL manual I would love to get the missing lines. : ) I will provide the EPROM set to anyone interested for cost. This is what I have so far. There are probably some mistakes but I can't ever finish without the missing lines. Grant FC00: 8E 00 F1 4F CE FE FB 8D 42 4F 97 4A 97 4B BD FE | GS FC10: A3 24 3B 8D 24 27 E9 8D 65 27 E5 EE 00 DF 4A DE | GS FC20: 42 08 08 08 8D 13 27 0D DE 42 EE 00 9C 4A 27 05 | GS FC30: 08 DF 46 20 E2 8D 5A 20 E0 DF 72 BD FD EC 08 A6 | GS FC40: 00 8D 03 DE 4A 39 81 22 26 4E 08 7E FD 75 DF 74 | GS FC50: 97 4A D7 4B DE 4A 26 69 CE 01 08 9C 50 27 BA DF | GS FC60: 42 A6 00 E6 01 BD FD 20 DE 42 08 08 BD FD 58 BD | GS FC70: FE F2 20 E7 DE 42 08 08 6D 00 26 FB 08 39 CE 01 | GS FC80: 08 DF 42 9C 50 27 10 A6 01 90 4B A6 00 92 4A 24 | GS FC90: 04 20 EC 86 FF 39 BD FD 80 37 36 DE 72 BD | GS FCA0: FD FF 32 C1 24 26 04 33 7E FF 81 C0 3F 27 70 5C | GS FCB0: 33 26 01 3F A7 00 E7 01 DB 52 99 53 97 52 D7 53 | GS FCC0: 39 8D BB 27 18 EE 00 9C 4A 26 12 8D A7 9E 42 9C | GS FCD0: 50 27 08 A6 00 36 08 31 31 20 F4 9F 50 DE 74 C6 | GS FCE0: 03 6D 00 27 31 5C 08 6D 00 26 FA 4F DB 51 99 50 | GS FCF0: 97 3C D7 3D D0 59 92 58 24 22 DE 50 9E 3C 9F 50 | GS FD00: 08 09 E6 00 37 9C 42 26 F8 9E 4A AF 00 9E 74 34 | GS FD10: 08 33 E7 01 26 FA 83 00 F1 7E FC 09 7E FC 00 33 | GS FD20: CE 00 82 DF 6C CE FE 5B DF 6E EE 00 DF 70 CE 00 | GS FD30: 70 BD FE 65 36 DE 6C 96 69 8B 30 A7 00 08 DF 6C | GS FD40: DE 6E 32 08 08 6D 01 26 DF CE 00 81 63 05 03 E6 | GS FD50: 00 C1 30 27 F9 73 00 86 4F 97 87 E6 00 08 D1 87 | GS FD60: 27 05 BD FF 81 20 F4 BD FF 24 24 5B 8D 04 C1 03 | GS FD70: 27 AA 7E FF 00 8D E2 A6 00 81 3B 27 5D 7E FE F2 | GS FD80: 8D 46 36 A6 00 27 02 81 29 32 27 4E 8D 04 DE 64 | GS FD90: 20 F0 36 37 A6 00 36 03 8D 2E 97 6A D7 6B DF 64 | GS FDA0: CE 00 6A 32 33 81 2A 26 6E 32 97 68 D7 69 69 10 | GS FDB0: D7 66 4F 5F 74 00 68 76 00 69 24 02 8D 5E 68 01 | GS FDC0: 69 00 7A 00 66 26 ED 39 BD FE A5 24 0E C1 EF 26 | GS FDD0: 0B DF 76 BD FE D6 8D A8 DE 76 08 39 C1 24 26 05 | GS FDE0: 8D 90 4F 08 39 C1 28 26 03 08 20 94 8D 11 A6 00 | GS FDF0: E6 01 DE 70 39 8D 89 58 49 DB 51 99 50 20 0E 36 | GS FE00: 00 08 37 C1 3A 27 EE 4F C4 3F CB 02 58 DF 70 97 | GS FE10: 6C D7 6D DE 6C 33 39 81 2B 26 06 32 EB 01 A9 00 | GS FE20: 39 81 2D 26 06 32 E0 01 A2 00 39 81 2F 26 0C 32 | GS FE30: 8D 33 97 4E D7 4F 96 68 D6 69 39 80 3D 26 0C 32 | GS FE40: 8D E4 26 03 5D 27 02 C6 FF 20 0D 4A 32 27 07 8D | GS FE50: D5 59 4F C4 01 39 8D F7 53 20 F7 27 10 03 E8 00 | GS FE60: 64 00 0A 00 01 7F 00 66 7C 00 66 63 01 69 00 24 | GS FE70: F7 66 00 66 01 7F 00 68 7F 00 69 8D A9 24 04 8D | GS FE80: 9B 0C 9C 0D 79 00 69 79 00 68 7A 00 66 27 12 64 | GS FE90: 00 66 01 20 E6 E6 00 C1 3A 2A 04 C1 30 2C 02 0D | GS FEA0: 39 0C 39 8D 31 8D EE 25 F9 4F 5F EB 00 89 00 C0 | GS FEB0: 30 82 00*87?66*D7 67 08 37 8D DA 33 25 E3 58 49 | GS FEC0: 58 49 DB 67 99 66 58 49 20 E1 C1 40 27 06 08 8C | GS FED0: 00 4A 26 08 8D 1C CE 00 02 09 27 F8 BD FF 00 E7 | GS FEE0: 87 C1 5F 27 F4 C1 0D 28 F3 26 DF 6F 87 CE 00 33 | GS FEF0: 20 04 C6 0D 8D 02 C6 0A 7E FF 31 0D 0A 4F 4B 00 | GS From vrs at msn.com Mon Jul 2 00:10:33 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 22:10:33 -0700 Subject: Items available for trade References: <200707020048.l620mrJg017877@mwave.heeltoe.com><46885575.50700@sbcglobal.net> <46885BA8.4070407@jetnet.ab.ca><622201c7bc51$6e5dc380$020a0a0a@cj2a> <46886763.40308@jetnet.ab.ca><46886C9F.30608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0c4301c7bc67$52106cd0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 7/1/07, woodelf wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> http://www.dvq.com/ads/dec_sa_4_68.jpg >> >>> what is the piece of equipment that is in the third row from the >> >>> left, >> >>> second one down? It looks like a mini computer built into a table, >> > >> > It is a PDP-8/S. >> >> I've only known the rack mount version.I stand corrected. >> > -Dave > > I've seen pictures of the racked version, I have a square table-top > version (black cover, approximately the same size as a table-top -8/e, > but I've never seen the pedestal -8/S before. I know how the switches > can be angled like that - unlike the -8/e or even the -8/i and -8/L, > the -8/S has two boards for its front panel - one is a stubble board > with the switches on it, then the board for the lights occupies row > two, then hangs over the top of the switch board in row one. It's not > difficult to imagine them making a modified switch board with the > switches parallel to the backplane instead of perpendicular. > > Has anyone ever seen one of those in person? I'm kinda wondering if > they ever sold any or just mocked it up for the brochure. I still think it's the 8/i, not the 8/S. Compare with: http://www.simulogics.com/nostalgia/DEC/8-I_01.jpg FWIW, the 8/i also has the switches on a separate board from the lights, making it fairly easy to mount them at an angle like that. Vince From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 2 00:21:22 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 00:21:22 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Jim Butterfield passes away] Message-ID: <46888B52.1070907@jbrain.com> Jim Butterfield of TPUG and PET SW fame, in case anyone is interested: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Jim Butterfield passes away Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 19:51:37 -0400 From: Robert Bernardo Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION To: COMMODOR at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU --- Forwarded message --- I regret to advise the Commodore community that Jim Butterfield has passed away. Jim died at 1:30 AM on June 29 after battling cancer which infected many parts of his body. His family advises that there will not be a funeral as such but a commemoration of Jim's life is planned in the next month or two. At the moment that is all the detail that I have to report. We have all lost a truly wonderful friend and teacher. Ernie Chorny -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jul 2 03:22:03 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 01:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <4687D3B5.7783.5B9366F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20070701155346.N1660@shell.lmi.net> <4687D3B5.7783.5B9366F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jul 2007 at 15:57, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > > While looking for another part (actually a replacement door for a Tandon > > > 5.25" drive) > > > > are people still breaking the pins? > > ...or losing them. I replaced the last door pin on a Tandon TM-100- > 4M with a section of 14 ga. stainless bicycle spoke. Worked fine. How do you break the pins? I most often see the plastic parts that grip the pins breaking more often. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 2 06:58:40 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:58:40 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <5D456CEC-6AE1-4262-B5E5-32886CD714CD@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: >>>> When I was at university (71-74), the college's mainframe still used a drum from program overlays (probably really the virtual memory backing storage, but possibly just dumping and restoring the whole program between time slices. The machine was no slouch, it was serving about a hundred terminals and running a couple of batch streams as well (Maximop and George 2). <<<< I take it that this was an ICL 1905E (probably at Swansea or QMC). That processor benchmarks about the same as an IBM PC/AT (!) [somehow I cannot see running 100 terminals off an AT] Originally on the 1900 series the drum was considered a different peripheral type (ie needed different programming) from an Exchangeable Disk (EDS) or Fixed Disk (FDS), but, by the time we at City acquired Swansea's old 1905E and drum (and some EDS30s), new Executives appeared with UDAS (Unified Direct Access) where the drum was programmed just the same as a disk. These Execs, unlike the previous versions, were overlaid (I think they were still, however, written in engineers assembler which used numeric op-codes rather than the mnemonics of PLAN or GIN5). Each overlay was (most of) a 128 word disk sector ... tight modular code was rather forced! ... it also had to be position independent on a machine with no real architectural support for such - and you had only minimal use of the Datum/Limit registers in Exec mode. The drum was, I think, 512K characters (128K 24-bit words). We put the Exec overlays and the Maximop overlay file on the drum - I'm not sure what else. It probably was too small for the Maximop swap file. George II and the main compilers and consolidator (ICL's name for the link editor) were probably also on the drum. George had little to gain fromsuch a location as it did not use overlays except that job wrap-up and start reloaded the full code, some of which got overwritten during processing - British operating systems of the era tended to use a "job description" at the start rather than the interspersed "control cards" typical of IBM. We got rid of the drum at the start of our transition from ICL to Honeywell - it took up too much space in the machine room and the Level 66 was a BIG machine (physically). Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/883 - Release Date: 01/07/2007 12:19 From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Jul 2 07:31:32 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:31:32 +0100 Subject: Anybody have some Bay Networks parts? In-Reply-To: <004c01c7bb98$d2ab6720$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4685EF5D.9000608@gmail.com> <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46871F39.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> <004c01c7bb98$d2ab6720$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <1183379492.5717.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Sun, 2007-07-01 at 00:22 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > One of my cats had the misfortune to throw up on the power supply to my Bay > Networks Instant Internet 100 router. The cat is fine (now that his hairball > is out), but the power supply is toasted. Looking for a 721-030-C supply > (+5V 2.5A, +12V .7A, -12V .1A). Bodge a PC power supply to fit. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 11:03:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:03:51 -0700 Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: References: , <4687D3B5.7783.5B9366F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4688BF77.19770.9521F06@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2007 at 1:22, David Griffith wrote: > How do you break the pins? I most often see the plastic parts that grip > the pins breaking more often. What you said, but that the pins end up getting lost inevitably. Easy enough to repair. Cheers, Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jul 2 11:47:20 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:47:20 -0700 Subject: Diehl Combitron (Was: "Oddball"(LGP-30) In-Reply-To: <41705018-181F-417B-BF8B-3238C9379D48@neurotica.com> References: <41705018-181F-417B-BF8B-3238C9379D48@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Re: Getting Microcode off of Tape and Into Microcode Delay Line of Diehl Combitron Calculator There's been some discussion about how the data on the punched metal tape containing the microcode for the Diehl Combitron/Combiton/SCM 566PR ended up synchronized with, and stuffed into the delay line at the appropriate time, given that the punched metal tape was simply dragged through the reader without any speed regulation. The microcode delay line held microcode in 55-bit words. A microcode operation code was 5 bits long, therefore the could be up to eleven microcode commands in one word. Each 55-bit word had another corresponding 55-bits worth of operation data that matched up 5-bits each with the operation code word. Some of the microcode operation codes used two five-bit fields, one with the operation code, and one with a "count" field, that told the logic how many times to execute the previous instruction. The data word contained operational data for micro-instruction operations, in five bit fields. So, each microcode block consisted of 110 bits of data in the delay line. The operation code word and operation data word were interleaved, five bits at a time. There were two sets of five-bit flip flops, configured as shift registers. One serial-in parallel-out shift register received data from the punched metal tape, clocked in by the clock track of the tape. The other five-bit shift register read the data out of the first shift register in parallel once five bits had been read from the tape, and at the appropriate time, shifted the data bit-by-bit into the delay line. The delay line ran MUCH faster than the tape, so there was plenty of time between groups of five bits on the tape for the right place in the delay line to be reached, then the buffered data injected into the delay line. It is my belief (thought not confirmed at this point) that the first shift register (serial-in, parallel-out) actually had a dual purpose -- it's input & clock could be switched from the punched tape reader tracks (data & clock) to the "output end" of the delay line, and the clock coming from the master delay line clock. This way, one five bit shift register could serve as the buffer register for the tape loading sequence (done only at power-on or master reset), and the rest of the time, it was a buffer register for groups of five bits at a time as they came out of the delay line. This circuitry only applied to the "microcode" delay line. There was a separate delay line (though I believe both delay lines were housed within the same metal can) that contained the working registers of the calculator (accumulator, counters, memory register, etc.). Note that the term "word" and "field" are somewhat arbitrary for descriptive purposes, because as far as the delay line is concerned, it's just one big long series of bits. The delay line is essentially an electromechanical equivalent of a long series of flip flips configured as a serial-in/serial out shift register. These machines were notorious for not "booting up" properly at power up time. The tape would read, but the code that got loaded was incorrect, resulting in a calculator that was catatonic, or sometimes did weird things. The main cause of this was contaminants getting in the tape reader optics. The tape reader was optical, with a light source on one side of the tape, and two photodiodes on the other side. As mentioned, the tape had two tracks, one a clock track, and the other a data track. If dirt or dust, or oil from the mechanical printing mechanism got into the optics, it would cause mis-reads, either clock pulses would get missed (meaning missed bits in the microcode), or data bits would not be read properly, again resulting in a bad microcode load. Keeping the optics clean was a main maintenance point for these machines, along with proper lubrication of the very mechanical print mechanism. Reading the microcode took about one minute from power-on, until the calculator was ready for use. The delay line for the microcode operations and data words had to be a pretty long delay line in order to store all of the micro-orders and constant data needed to run the calculator. It's not clear yet how much data is available on the architecture of the Combitron. However, I am working with contacts to try to get as much information as possible. If enough data can be found, and an operational example of one of these machines can be found, it shouldn't be too hard to "dump" the microcode, and perhaps reverse engineer it. I'm sure that, given Stan Frankel's genius, that the microcode is a miracle of efficiency, and would be fascinating to study. Slightly off-topic, but still within the "Classic Computer" realm: I'm currently in the process of doing this for the Wang 720C calculator. I have successfully dumped the microcode out of the machine, and have written a simulator in Perl that simulates the hardware environment of the calculator, and executes the microcode. I've still got a few minor glitches in the simulation, but for the most part, everything works. The only problem I have at this point is that for some reason, the base 10 logarithm function gives a result that is the base e logarithm rather than the base 10 log. The base e logarithm function (clearly) works fine. The microcode appears to be heavily shared for these two functions, so there's probably something wrong with some implementation of the machine's logic in the simulation that causes a branch to be missed, or mis-interpreted. It's been a long, slow project, but it's my hope to be able completely document the microcode for the 720C, and perhaps, capture microcode from other Wang 700-series models (700A, 700B, 720B), and do the same. Since the Wang 700-series (along with the 500 and 600-series machines) utilize a very complex hand-wired wire-rope ROM to store 2048x44 bits of microcode, many machines which are otherwise healthy are dead because of a bad ROM. The ROMs are very difficult to repair, as the wires just somewhat larger in diameter than a human hair, and there are LOTS of them. But, with known-good ROM images, building a ROM emulator using current-day ROM technology should allow folks to resurrect machines which are suffering from bad ROMs. I have a Wang 700A which works mostly, except square root does not give correct results. It's my hope that once I get the emulator working 100% (it has switches to behave as a 700/720 and A, B, or C model) that I can dump the 700A's ROM, and figure out where it's going astray, and perhaps repair it. I'll post my findings on the Old Calculator Web Museum (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com) site once I get the last few bugs worked out. Rick Bensene From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 2 12:01:39 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:01:39 -0600 Subject: Apricot F1 software needed In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 01 Jul 2007 23:39:52 +0100. <010001c7bc30$beb4a3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: In article <010001c7bc30$beb4a3b0$0a01a8c0 at memoryalpha.org.uk>, "Ensor" writes: > I gave away almost all of my Apricot collection (and software) some time > ago, however you should find something useful over at "www.actapricot.org". Thanks! That looks like just what I need... Anyone got an Apricot Xi? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 2 12:24:17 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:24:17 -0700 Subject: Diehl Combitron Message-ID: <468934C1.6070908@bitsavers.org> > It's not clear yet how much data is available on the architecture of the > Combitron. However, I am working with contacts to try to get as much > information as possible. If enough data can be found, and an > operational example of one of these machines can be found, it shouldn't > be too hard to "dump" the microcode there's a working one here: http://www.technikum29.de/en/devices/combitron.shtm It's also possible there may be one in the artifacts CHM received from Germany last year. From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Jul 2 13:17:43 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:17:43 -0400 Subject: Aerco Easie-ST RAM Upgrade for Atari-ST In-Reply-To: <200707012319.l61NIX6l020295@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707012319.l61NIX6l020295@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46894147.70909@yahoo.com> Hi all, I have one of these beasts in my Atari-ST and it's not working. I haven't been able to find the manual for it. If anyone out there has the manual, and can make a copy for me, I'd reimburse the copy fee, postage and send you something for your trouble. Or... If anyone knows any of the principals of Aerco (from Texas if I remember) who can put me in touch with one, who might have the manual would be great! Thanks!! Al Phila, PA From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Jul 2 13:19:40 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:19:40 -0400 Subject: Free for Pickup in Phila, PA - TOPS Networking stuff In-Reply-To: <200707012319.l61NIX6l020295@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707012319.l61NIX6l020295@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <468941BC.5070303@yahoo.com> I have a box full of TOPS networking software and some hardware (Flash Cards for the PC, and connectors for the Mac) that I don't want to put in the dumpster. If you would like this box, and can come pick it up in Philadelphia PA.... It's yours!!! Email me off list. Al Phila, PA From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Jul 2 13:51:35 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 19:51:35 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <200707021702.l62H16AI033261@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707021702.l62H16AI033261@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 2 Jul, 2007, at 18:02, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> When I was at university (71-74), the college's mainframe >> still used a drum from program overlays (probably really the virtual >> memory backing storage, but possibly just dumping and restoring the >> whole program between time slices. The machine was no slouch, it was >> serving about a hundred terminals and running a couple of batch >> streams as well (Maximop and George 2). > > I take it that this was an ICL 1905E (probably at Swansea or QMC). Yes, QMC. It got upgraded to a 1904S whilst I was there. Maybe it was the 4S which had 100+ terminals, there was certainly a large increase whilst I was there. Initially most were printing terminals with lights inside, not Teletypes, can't remember the maker's name. There was also just two CRT terminals, on which you typed a load of lines and told the computer to read it. You could edit small programs on screen but on the priniting terminals you had to give it commands to change character and to step through your code. Later on we got Data Dynamics terminals, an acoustic box (to save the ears) around a naked ASR33 or KSR33 Teletype. Then we got the fairly standard 'glass teletypes', though by then I was mostly using the IMLAC graphics terminal. Do you think the drum got kicked out when we went over to the 4S? I never got to see the 4S. It was all hands off. All changed when I got to Marconi-Elliott Avionics, the training consisted of - there's the computer, here's how you turn the thing on, there's the mylar tape library, the bootstrap is at 8181, get on with it. > That processor benchmarks about the same as an IBM PC/AT (!) > [somehow I cannot see running 100 terminals off an AT] Was it really that slow! We really put up with a lot back then. > > Originally on the 1900 series the drum was considered a different > peripheral > type (ie needed different programming) from an Exchangeable Disk > (EDS) or > Fixed Disk (FDS), but, by the time we at City acquired Swansea's old > 1905E and drum (and some EDS30s), new Executives appeared with > UDAS (Unified Direct Access) where the drum was programmed just the > same as a disk. These Execs, unlike the previous versions, were > overlaid > (I think they were still, however, written in engineers assembler > which used > numeric op-codes rather than the mnemonics of PLAN or GIN5). Interesting. Maybe it was like my school maths teachers who forced us to use fountain pens instead of ball points because it slowed us down so we thought more about what we were doing and so made less mistakes. At Marconi, the hardware test programmers/engineers always used a different language than those of us in the utility software group, and we provided the higher level language compilers for the applications writers to use. > Each overlay was (most of) a 128 word disk sector ... tight modular > code > was rather forced! ... it also had to be position independent on a > machine > with no real architectural support for such - and you had only > minimal use > of the Datum/Limit registers in Exec mode. Very difficult. I had always assumed the executive lived at a fixed position in memory. Maybe it used relativisers, 1300 style, where every instruction could specify what block start address should be added to it, but maybe that would slow down loading the overlays too much. I wonder if any of the concepts in the 1302 executive got re- used on 1900. Obviously not the code itself, very different architectures, just sharing the 'standard interface' and the concept of the executive itself. > The drum was, I think, 512K characters (128K 24-bit words). We put the > Exec overlays and the Maximop overlay file on the drum - I'm not sure > what else. It probably was too small for the Maximop swap file. > George II > and the main compilers and consolidator (ICL's name for the link > editor) > were probably also on the drum. George had little to gain fromsuch a > location > as it did not use overlays except that job wrap-up and start > reloaded the > full code, some of which got overwritten during processing - British > operating > systems of the era tended to use a "job description" at the start > rather > than > the interspersed "control cards" typical of IBM. Right. > We got rid of the drum at the start of our transition from ICL to > Honeywell - > it took up too much space in the machine room and the Level 66 was a > BIG machine (physically). Maybe ICL had been bumping up the maintenance charges for old kit they really did not want to support any more. Keeping engineers trained up on kit for a handful of customers is not very cost effective, and the older engineers who knew the old kit keep getting 'promoted' into management. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 14:26:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:26:34 -0700 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: References: <200707021702.l62H16AI033261@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <4688EEFA.31959.A0BB482@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2007 at 19:51, Roger Holmes wrote: >> > That processor benchmarks about the same as an IBM PC/AT (!) > > [somehow I cannot see running 100 terminals off an AT] > > Was it really that slow! We really put up with a lot back then. Terminal speed can mask a lot. How many ASR33's did IIT run IITRAN to using what, a 16K foreground partition on a 128K 360/40 running DOS? Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jul 2 14:34:28 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RiscOS hardware in the US? Message-ID: <316426.84476.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In one of my mental wanderings, I remembered that I had always wanted to play with RiscOS, but never had found a machine that would run it - so I did a little web hunting and turned up nearly nothing. Even eBay had no listings for such gear. I know the Acorn Archimedes runs RiscOS, but what else? I'm not sure that the Acorn was ever even sold in the US. I know, I can probably just go get an emulator, but I'd still love to play with a real computer. Did any US-available computer run RiscOS? -Ian From kth at srv.net Mon Jul 2 15:04:24 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:04:24 -0600 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <4688EEFA.31959.A0BB482@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707021702.l62H16AI033261@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4688EEFA.31959.A0BB482@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46895A48.6080909@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jul 2007 at 19:51, Roger Holmes wrote: > > >>>> That processor benchmarks about the same as an IBM PC/AT (!) >>>> >>> [somehow I cannot see running 100 terminals off an AT] >>> >> Was it really that slow! We really put up with a lot back then. >> > > Terminal speed can mask a lot. How many ASR33's did IIT run IITRAN > to using what, a 16K foreground partition on a 128K 360/40 running > DOS? > A lot of the increased speed has been eaten up by the Graphical Interfaces. Consider that most home PC's today operate faster and have more memory than a Cray-1, and can barely keep up with e-mail. We used to have 30+ users on a PDP-11 with max 4Mb memory, and now dedicate a Dual Core system with more than a Gb to a single web surfer. And using an 8 core CPU machine (PS3), just to play games. How large would a PDP-10 system have been that had anywhere close to the disk/ram/... of a single PlayStation3? Technology has really shrunk things down. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 2 15:05:30 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:05:30 -0700 Subject: RiscOS hardware in the US? Message-ID: <46895A8A.7050506@bitsavers.org> > I know the Acorn > Archimedes runs RiscOS, but what else? I'm not sure > that the Acorn was ever even sold in the US. As far as I know it was not. My first exposure to the Acorn machines were those brought over in '87 for Apple's first attempt at a RISC Apple II (Moebius). I never saw a RISCOS machine sold here. I've found a few of them on eBay for CHM. Shipping from the UK is painful. I've also had an unusually high percentage of them never arrive. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Jul 2 15:20:48 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 16:20:48 -0400 Subject: Selling my DECmate III on ebay Message-ID: <2AAC50E0-3432-4143-8A4F-1624E6D4B14E@earthlink.net> Hi all, Just wanted to let anyone know who's interested I'm selling my DECmate III on ebay. Auction is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=300126794061 Cheers, Julian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 2 15:14:44 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:14:44 -0500 Subject: RiscOS hardware in the US? In-Reply-To: <316426.84476.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <316426.84476.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46895CB4.9040401@yahoo.co.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I know the Acorn > Archimedes runs RiscOS, but what else? Full Acorn machine list here: http://www.khantazi.org/Archives/MachineLst.html ... most of the 32-bit stuff is RISC OS-capable. I don't think the A500, A680 or M4 could ever be coaxed into running it (very unlikely you'd find any of those three in the US though). I think the various set-top boxes and NC were sufficiently capable to do so with a bit of hacking. Things like A4xx/1's, A30x0's, and RISC PC 600's are common as mud in the UK still, and have no resale value (they were incredibly common in schools, and are still turning up in cupboards all the time). Chances are you might find someone on ebay (UK) prepared to ship one to the US if it meant they ended up getting a little more out of the deal than they would selling nationally. > I'm not sure > that the Acorn was ever even sold in the US. The Acorn model B (aka BBC micro) made it to the US, but didn't do well (lack of sales effort I think, rather than price - and certainly not technical ability! :-) - but then that was pre-ARM and pre-RISC OS. I think there was a distributor for the Acorn RISC PC in the States, but they're unlikely to still be around (the OS seems to be barely clinging on this side of the pond, and I believe that the hardware these days is nothing more than a rebranded IBM-compat. PC) Other than that, I don't think there was ever any Acorn presence in the US. I have a vague memory of some US company with an ARM-powered portable, but I don't recall if it ran RISC OS, and I'm almost certain it never made it out of prototype stage anyway. > I know, I can probably just go get an emulator, but > I'd still love to play with a real computer. If it comes to it, I might be able to shift one across the pond for you later this year depending on how things pan out with shipping all the other vintage stuff I want to move over. If the charges are banded by weight anyway then it may end up not mattering if I ship a few 'extras'. Personally, I was never much interested in the RISC OS years. Sure, the ARM processors were fast as all hell, but the earlier Acorn 8-bitters were always far more fun to hack around with (which makes the large amount of ARM-powered stuff that I've ended up accumulating rather worrying ;) cheers Jules From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Jul 2 15:28:26 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:28:26 -0400 Subject: In-Reply-To: <200707011545.l61FijCK010996@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707011545.l61FijCK010996@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46895FEA.9070604@yahoo.com> > "NewTek" was an Amiga company, "NewTech" was the Mac clone company. > > - John For those interested, I put up all the information I have several years ago on my website... I'd love to own one of these. I hope I come across one in my travels. http://www.geocities.com/macemulist/nutek.html Al Phila, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 2 15:36:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:36:07 -0600 Subject: RiscOS hardware in the US? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:34:28 -0700. <316426.84476.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <316426.84476.qm at web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > [...] I know the Acorn > Archimedes runs RiscOS, but what else? Are you talking about RISC/os, the SysV/BSD hybrid sold by MIPS for their R3000 and later processors? The Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation series used this operating system. I have two machines intact and a complete set of RISC/os documentation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jul 2 15:37:23 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:37:23 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <46895FEA.9070604@yahoo.com> References: <200707011545.l61FijCK010996@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46895FEA.9070604@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070702153632.06b2a268@mail> At 03:28 PM 7/2/2007, Al Hartman wrote: >> "NewTek" was an Amiga company, "NewTech" was the Mac clone company. >> >> - John > >For those interested, I put up all the information I have several years ago on my website... > >I'd love to own one of these. I hope I come across one in my travels. > >http://www.geocities.com/macemulist/nutek.html Site didn't load for me... but it looks like I was wrong? Google also shows lots of hits for 'Nutek "mac clone"'. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 15:40:10 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 13:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: References: , <20070701155346.N1660@shell.lmi.net> <4687D3B5.7783.5B9366F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070702133331.P48026@shell.lmi.net> > > > > While looking for another part (actually a replacement door for a Tandon > > > > 5.25" drive) > > > are people still breaking the pins? > > ...or losing them. I replaced the last door pin on a Tandon TM-100- > > 4M with a section of 14 ga. stainless bicycle spoke. Worked fine. On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, David Griffith wrote: > How do you break the pins? I most often see the plastic parts that grip > the pins breaking more often. That is correct. In a lab full of college students, I noticed two behaviors associated with broken door hinges of Tandon drives. Instead of gripping the door between thumb and forefinger and easing it open, some students hooked it with forefinger, and snapped it open, letting it slam against the stop. A few others would poke the upper part of the door to make it slam open. Instead of replacing the drives, we bought a large quantity of doors and hinges. When the college switched to mostly new machines, the college administrators threw out our box of repair parts, rendering all subsequent ones that broke "unrepairable". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 2 15:53:44 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:53:44 -0700 Subject: RiscOS hardware in the US? Message-ID: <468965D8.6000403@bitsavers.org> > Are you talking about RISC/os, the SysV/BSD hybrid sold by MIPS No, this is a ROM-based operating system sold with Acorn RISC personal computers. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 16:07:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:07:10 -0700 Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <20070702133331.P48026@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20070702133331.P48026@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4689068E.30305.A67CD93@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2007 at 13:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > Instead of replacing the drives, we bought a large quantity of doors and > hinges. When the college switched to mostly new machines, the college > administrators threw out our box of repair parts, rendering all subsequent > ones that broke "unrepairable". The drives with the broken plastic holding the guide pin can be repaired with a bit of ingenuity. I saw the slam-bang behavior with the Micropolis "squeeze to close" type of drives--folks would just quickly flip the door open and let it bang against the stop. Micropolis drives, fortunately, were built like a brick outhouse and could take the abuse. We tried replacing the Micropolis drives with Tandons and had door problems in the field all too frequently. I think we eventually went to MPIs for awhile. There just weren't that many manufacturers of 100 TPI drives at any time. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 18:19:40 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:19:40 -0700 Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <20070702133331.P48026@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin ---snip--- > >In a lab full of college students, I noticed two behaviors associated with >broken door hinges of Tandon drives. Instead of gripping the door between >thumb and forefinger and easing it open, some students hooked it with >forefinger, and snapped it open, letting it slam against the stop. A few >others would poke the upper part of the door to make it slam open. > > Hi I have a solution that might help keeping it from failing in the future. I have had a number of drop flags fail on pinball machines. I found that a thin piece of poly foam would protect them. I put it where the impact was. Unlike other foams, the poly foam seems to last forever ( not always a good thing ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 18:37:17 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:37:17 -0700 Subject: Diehl Combitron (Was: "Oddball"(LGP-30) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Rick Bensene" > > >Re: Getting Microcode off of Tape and Into Microcode Delay Line of Diehl >Combitron Calculator > ---snip--- > >These machines were notorious for not "booting up" properly at power up >time. The tape would read, but the code that got loaded was incorrect, >resulting in a calculator that was catatonic, or sometimes did weird >things. The main cause of this was contaminants getting in the tape >reader optics. The tape reader was optical, with a light source on one >side of the tape, and two photodiodes on the other side. As mentioned, >the tape had two tracks, one a clock track, and the other a data track. >If dirt or dust, or oil from the mechanical printing mechanism got into >the optics, it would cause mis-reads, either clock pulses would get >missed (meaning missed bits in the microcode), or data bits would not be >read properly, again resulting in a bad microcode load. Keeping the >optics clean was a main maintenance point for these machines, along with >proper lubrication of the very mechanical print mechanism. Hi I found that the one I had would fail to boot for another reason. Even cleanning the optics wasn't totally enough. I found that the metal tape would not always pass smoothly through the reader. Some times it would stick a little and then flash through the reader, faster or slower then intended. I found that I had to clean the surface of the metal tape as well from any stray grease or corrosion. I'd truly love to have one today. I'm sure the one I used is long gone. Keep up the good work. Many of the early electronic calculators were truly great computing machines. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 18:10:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 00:10:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <20070701155346.N1660@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 1, 7 03:57:02 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > While looking for another part (actually a replacement door for a Tandon > > 5.25" drive) > > are people still breaking the pins? I wish. If it'd been the pins, I would not have been looking for a replacemetn door. I'd be popping into the garage, grabbing a bit of plastic or brss stock, and machining it to size. No, what failed on my drive was the plastic hinge part that bolts to the dront of the clamp arm and that's attached to the door itself by said pins. The plastic had gon very brittle, and the part where the pins actually fit was broken apart. > > > It's made by Panasonic, and is a luggable. The carrying handle is one one > > . . . > > Does anyone recognise this machine? > > Sounds like the Panasonic "Senior Partner". I think that digibarn has a > webpage of one. and maybe Uncle Roger? It is, thanks. Somebody else posted a URL for a picture of this machine, which matches mine perfectly _apart from one thing_. His says 'Panasonic Senior Partner' on the front, mine says 'Panasonic Portable Computer'. I'll bet they're the same inside, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 18:40:53 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 00:40:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <20070702133331.P48026@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 2, 7 01:40:10 pm Message-ID: > > How do you break the pins? I most often see the plastic parts that grip > > the pins breaking more often. > > That is correct. And that's what had failed on my drive. > > In a lab full of college students, I noticed two behaviors associated with > broken door hinges of Tandon drives. Instead of gripping the door between > thumb and forefinger and easing it open, some students hooked it with > forefinger, and snapped it open, letting it slam against the stop. A few > others would poke the upper part of the door to make it slam open. Actually, I've found pressing on the upper part of the door to be much kinder to the pins than pulling the door open from the bottom edge (think about what the applied force reacts against). The trick, of course, is not to let the clamp arm slam open, but to guide the door open gently and let the arm rise slowly > Instead of replacing the drives, we bought a large quantity of doors and > hinges. When the college switched to mostly new machines, the college > administrators threw out our box of repair parts, rendering all subsequent > ones that broke "unrepairable". :-(. I'm getting low on replacement doors too. I may have to start making those hihgt parts from scratch. Of course I've kept the parts I removed from this drive. If nothing else, the door itself is fine, and the broken parts of the hinge may be useful if I do have to fabricate one. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 19:37:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 17:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TM100 doors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070702173545.X58391@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > I have a solution that might help keeping it from failing in the future. > I have had a number of drop flags fail on pinball machines. I found > that a thin piece of poly foam would protect them. I put it where > the impact was. Unlike other foams, the poly foam seems to last > forever ( not always a good thing ). . . . but do it to ALL of the drives! We did that with the A: drive of the dean's computer. He noticed that it wasn't opening quite as far as the other drives, and forced it, . . . From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 19:42:23 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 17:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070702174102.C58391@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I've found pressing on the upper part of the door to be much > kinder to the pins than pulling the door open from the bottom edge (think > about what the applied force reacts against). The trick, of course, is > not to let the clamp arm slam open, but to guide the door open gently and > let the arm rise slowly a gentle press works fine. What I was seeing was a group of students who would do it with a sudden jab, letting it slam open From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 19:54:06 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 17:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <4689068E.30305.A67CD93@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20070702133331.P48026@shell.lmi.net> <4689068E.30305.A67CD93@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070702175232.W58391@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I saw the slam-bang behavior with the Micropolis "squeeze to close" > type of drives--folks would just quickly flip the door open and let > it bang against the stop. Micropolis drives, fortunately, were built > like a brick outhouse and could take the abuse. They're slow, with a helical lead screw, but the last working 5.25" drive in the world will probably be an early Micropolis. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jul 2 19:56:04 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 17:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Selling my DECmate III on ebay In-Reply-To: <2AAC50E0-3432-4143-8A4F-1624E6D4B14E@earthlink.net> References: <2AAC50E0-3432-4143-8A4F-1624E6D4B14E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Hi all, > > Just wanted to let anyone know who's interested I'm selling my > DECmate III on ebay. > > Auction is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&item=300126794061 Do you think you could do me the favor of rephotographing that DECmate on a neutral background with more light? I'd like to include it in the DECmate article on Wikipedia. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jul 2 19:59:50 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 17:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NewTek In-Reply-To: <46895FEA.9070604@yahoo.com> References: <200707011545.l61FijCK010996@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46895FEA.9070604@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, Al Hartman wrote: > > "NewTek" was an Amiga company, "NewTech" was the Mac clone company. > > > > - John > > For those interested, I put up all the information I have several years > ago on my website... > > I'd love to own one of these. I hope I come across one in my travels. > > http://www.geocities.com/macemulist/nutek.html Speaking of NewTek, does anyone have a copy of or a video rendering of the Amiga demo that begins with a guy who looks like Bluto from the Popeye cartoons yelling "SCREWTEK!"? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jul 2 20:14:33 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 18:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: conehead-speak for a mouse Message-ID: Lately I've been tinkering with a Commodore SX-64 and I found this little gem in the manual: SPECIAL DESKTOP CONTROLLER Commodore will soon introduce a special device that controls the screen as you move the controller across a desktop. This new controller will be an optional enhancement for Commodore Software products, such as the MAGIC DESK Series. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 20:37:20 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 18:37:20 -0700 Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <20070702175232.W58391@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin > >On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I saw the slam-bang behavior with the Micropolis "squeeze to close" > > type of drives--folks would just quickly flip the door open and let > > it bang against the stop. Micropolis drives, fortunately, were built > > like a brick outhouse and could take the abuse. > >They're slow, with a helical lead screw, but the last working >5.25" drive in the world will probably be an early Micropolis. > Hi It's a shame their hard drives were not as good. I think they did them selve in with a product that was really bad. When I was working a HaL, we had almost a 100% failure rate in about 1-2 weeks of burnin. We cahnged brands ( I forget who ) and had your typical 2 or 3 in a thousand rate. Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!? http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 23:17:28 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 21:17:28 -0700 Subject: TM100 doors Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin >>On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > > I have a solution that might help keeping it from failing in the future. > > I have had a number of drop flags fail on pinball machines. I found > > that a thin piece of poly foam would protect them. I put it where > > the impact was. Unlike other foams, the poly foam seems to last > > forever ( not always a good thing ). > >. . . but do it to ALL of the drives! >We did that with the A: drive of the dean's computer. He noticed that it >wasn't opening quite as far as the other drives, and forced it, . . . > > H Fred I guess there is always someone that is just too educated. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 23:59:47 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 21:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TM100 doors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070702215818.H67489@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > I guess there is always someone that is just too educated. a college administrator can break a crowbar in a sandbox From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 3 00:12:07 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:12:07 -0600 Subject: TM100 doors In-Reply-To: <20070702215818.H67489@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070702215818.H67489@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4689DAA7.5060505@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > a college administrator can break a crowbar in a sandbox Some how I can't picture a sandbox in a college. Then again sometimes I wonder just what level of education some of schools are teaching -- it could be real soon they are manditory. Windows programing courses seem to be where the teaching is nowdays - No more computer science 101. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 3 00:28:51 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:28:51 -0400 Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200707030128.51968.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 01 July 2007 18:25, Tony Duell wrote: > While looking for another part (actually a replacement door for a Tandon > 5.25" drive) in the depths of my workshop, I came across a machine I'd > half-forgotten owening, and wondered if anyone recognises it. > > It's made by Panasonic, and is a luggable. The carrying handle is one one > side (not the back, as is usual for such machines). The front of the > machine comes off, and is an XT-layout keyboard (alas F9 and F10 are > missing on my unit, but I'll bet that's what the missing keys should be). > > The front of the main unit has a 9" monochrome CRT, and to the right of > it 2 vertical half-height 5.25" drive bays. On my machine the left one > contains a floppy drive, the right one a Seagate hard drive. To the left > of the CRT is a pull-out stretchy cable ending in a mini-DIN plug that > fits the hack of the keyboard > > On the back are the normal mains connnector, switch and fuse. A DE9 > connector marked RGB (CGA pinout?) a 36 pin microribbon printer port and > a DB25 serial port. On top of the unit is a thermal printer. > > It comes apart by removing numerous screws. In the bottom of the machine, > accessible from under the chassis is a large PCB. It contains an 8088 > with a 40 pin DIL socket alongside it (8087?), 256K DRAM, 8250 serial > chip, 8255 parallel chip, 6845 CRT controller, a PQFP surface=mount > device alongside it (video circuitry), 8257 DMA chip, etc. Basically, > what you'd expect to find on a PC/XT motherboard. Theere are 2 62 pin > expansion slots, one of which contains the hard disk controller (looks to > be a generic PC/XT part), the other contains a PCB with 512K RAM (I would > guess only 640K of the totla memory is useable) and a real time clock chip. > > The printer has its own cotnrol electronics based round a 8050 > microcontroller. The keyboard contians an 8048. > > Does anyone recognise this machine? I can't remember specifics like a model number or whatever, but I do remember that machine, being advertised in magazines and such... What sort of info were you looking for, in particular? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 3 00:33:21 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:33:21 -0400 Subject: Anybody have some Bay Networks parts? In-Reply-To: <1183379492.5717.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <004c01c7bb98$d2ab6720$0b01a8c0@game> <1183379492.5717.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <200707030133.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 02 July 2007 08:31, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Sun, 2007-07-01 at 00:22 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > One of my cats had the misfortune to throw up on the power supply to my > > Bay Networks Instant Internet 100 router. The cat is fine (now that his > > hairball is out), but the power supply is toasted. Looking for a > > 721-030-C supply (+5V 2.5A, +12V .7A, -12V .1A). > > Bodge a PC power supply to fit. > > Gordon Those from compact low-profile desktop machines (Packard Bell, etc.) are useful for this sort of thing, about the most useful bits I've been able to get out of such machines... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 2 15:43:49 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 21:43:49 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Initially most were printing terminals with lights inside, not Teletypes, can't remember the maker's name. <<< Probably Trend >>> There was also just two CRT terminals, on which you typed a load of lines and told the computer to read it. <<< Could well have been "genuine" ICL block-mode terminals >>> Do you think the drum got kicked out when we went over to the 4S? <<< Probably when they went to a dual '4S configuration - they really tried to have a resilient system - each 4S had its own motor-generator set and _all_ the peripherals were "Y"-switched. The flaw in the configuration only appeared when the power-supply to the Y switches failed :-( [actually, they could have kept running even then, but the Engineers naturally refused to work on that without turning the power off] >>> Was it really that slow! We really put up with a lot back then. <<< I've still got the timings from the acceptance benchmarks and have run the same benchmarks on many machines since. ** the most important of these benchmarks was the original "Whetstone" benchmark - Fortran carefully crafted to not be optimisable*1 - in fact in ran slower on the optimising compiler than on the standard one. *1 eventually (20 years later) compiler technology did manage to optimise away much of the code. > (I think they were still, however, written in engineers assembler > which used > numeric op-codes rather than the mnemonics of PLAN or GIN5). >>> Interesting. Maybe it was like my school maths teachers who forced us to use fountain pens instead of ball points because it slowed us down so we thought more about what we were doing and so made less mistakes. <<< No - it was that the engineers _knew_ the ciruit diagram of the processor and "000 3 100" was more meaningful to them than "LDX 3 base", say. >>> Very difficult. I had always assumed the executive lived at a fixed position in memory. Maybe it used relativisers, 1300 style, where every instruction could specify what block start address should be added to it, but maybe that would slow down loading the overlays too much. <<< The fixed part of Exec loaded at 0 - but the overlays could be on any 64-word boundary.(actually, probably 128 word - but the code would have worked on a 54 word boundary) >>> I wonder if any of the concepts in the 1302 executive got re- used on 1900. <<< I don't know, but I doubt it - wasn't the 1300 series a Stevenage design, while the earliest 1900s came from West Gorton (well, actually the earliest 1900 was the Canadian FP6000). Different parts of ICL had very much a "not invented here" attitude and the previous West Gorton product was Atlas. >>> Maybe ICL had been bumping up the maintenance charges for old kit they really did not want to support any more. <<< That wouldn't have affected us - we had our own engineers and did our own maintenance. I suspect we were the only none-MOD site in that position. I wish I had saved more of the engineering documentation - I probably have enough to make a very close approximation on a FPGA, but there doesn't seem to be a survivng operators Exec for a 1900, only George 3 stuff. Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/883 - Release Date: 01/07/2007 12:19 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jul 2 16:02:40 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 17:02:40 -0400 Subject: Drum vs. Core Message-ID: <0JKK00LD7L2ARK02@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Drum vs. Core > From: Kevin Handy > Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:04:24 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 2 Jul 2007 at 19:51, Roger Holmes wrote: >> >> >>>>> That processor benchmarks about the same as an IBM PC/AT (!) >>>>> >>>> [somehow I cannot see running 100 terminals off an AT] >>>> >>> Was it really that slow! We really put up with a lot back then. >>> >> >> Terminal speed can mask a lot. How many ASR33's did IIT run IITRAN >> to using what, a 16K foreground partition on a 128K 360/40 running >> DOS? >> >A lot of the increased speed has been eaten up by the >Graphical Interfaces. Consider that most home >PC's today operate faster and have more memory than a >Cray-1, and can barely keep up with e-mail. > >We used to have 30+ users on a PDP-11 with max 4Mb >memory, and now dedicate a Dual Core system with more >than a Gb to a single web surfer. And using an 8 core CPU >machine (PS3), just to play games. > >How large would a PDP-10 system have been that had >anywhere close to the disk/ram/... of a single PlayStation3? >Technology has really shrunk things down. The BOCES LIRCS system (LINY Ca1970) was a PDP-10 running tops-10 64kW then later 128W of core with a 128K swapping drum. Number of users on an average day was 300 (TTYs) with a PDP-8i handling switching and a few other tasks. Disks were four of the removable multiplatter washing machines (RP03) three active and the fouth holding the backup pack. It was a very reponsive machine unless there was contention for the disks (reads/writes). It's size in an airconditioned false floor room was 5 "racks" wide for the back row (mostly core boxes) and the front row was CPU, and PDP-8. Spent better part of a year there as a student just hacking on the machine like most fo the other students that had access with one little difference, I was hacking via a Hazeltine 1200 glass TTY and had access to the programmers console and tty(asr35). Allison From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Jul 3 03:09:29 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:09:29 +0200 Subject: Old Modems and Telephony switches Message-ID: <20070703080929.166010@gmx.net> "Bob Bradlee" wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:28:07 +0200, Arno Kletzander wrote: > > On the ISDN side, just two phones (one missing its local power supply > > too - duh), one or two PC cards and an NTBA so far. BTW, I forgot to mention the built in ISDN ports in some of my Sun kit - SS10 and SS20, I think. > Somewhere in storage I have an old Adtran box that takes a T1 (pri) line > in and breaks out a bunch of POTs ports and 2 ISDN BRI lines that will > source other equiptment. > > I know the MAX 4004 boxes will source a PRI out on the second channel if > you want to to put one inline with a PBX and skim some channels off the > top for data or dialup. At one point in time I had a ISDN PRI split out > to 7 pots lines, 8 private dialup lines, and a 512k data channel with a > class c address block (256 IP addresses) assigned before I gave up the > office about 5 years back. If I understand correctly, the equipment mentioned above will still require some sort of dedicated hookup to a telco provider in order to transport packets between two local devices. We don't have that and we don't need/want to get it (we have POTS service and DSL over POTS). I was/am just looking for a simple solution for interconnecting my packratted ISDN devices for some testing and fooling around, like room-to-room intercom, using ISDN between computers (like a slow-speed LAN) or playing back audio from a computer through an ISDN phone. Thanks for your suggestions anyway... -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Jul 3 03:38:31 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:38:31 +0200 Subject: Apricot MS530 (was: Apricot F1 software needed) Message-ID: <20070703083831.166040@gmx.net> Richard wrote: > "Ensor" writes: > > I gave away almost all of my Apricot collection (and software) some > > time ago, however you should find something useful over > > at "www.actapricot.org". > > Thanks! That looks like just what I need... > > Anyone got an Apricot Xi? Sorry no, but I found some interesting stuff on that page as well so I'd like to thank too. I recently was given the remnants of an Mitsubishi Apricot MS530, which is (was?) a PC-inside-a-monitor solution similar to the Apple Performa 5200. You guessed it, the interesting innards (mainboard and addon cards) were missing and what I have here now is a VGA monitor with a somewhat overgrown power supply, (speakers?) and lots of extra space in the housing. It was used as such by the previous owner and is supposed to be working. It's not of much use to me in this state, so if anybody has the missing innards (or an identical machine with dim/fried/otherwise unsatisfactory monitor portion), there are the usual two possibilities: -You want to build yourself a working machine, you can have the case/monitor for free, or -you want to get rid of the loose parts, I'll take them off your hands, provided we can figure out to get the stuff where it needs to go (to or from my place in Germany). Hoping for something to work out, -- Arno Kletzander Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From cc at corti-net.de Tue Jul 3 03:51:04 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:51:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Diehl Combitron In-Reply-To: <468934C1.6070908@bitsavers.org> References: <468934C1.6070908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > there's a working one here: > http://www.technikum29.de/en/devices/combitron.shtm And this one of course: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/kombitrn At least our's switched on on the picture and it correctly loaded its microcode. Christian From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Jul 3 03:55:51 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:55:51 +0200 Subject: Strange SCSI devices (was: Re: LISA) Message-ID: <20070703085551.61830@gmx.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > As as aside, there were lots of very strange things on SCSI busses back > in the day. Scanners were quite common, but there actually existed > printers, and even video cards on SCSI busses. :-) The SCSI video card > and ethernet card were useful for compact Macs that had a scsi port, but > no expansion slots. Not even to speak of some of the stuff the scientific camp came to use. I got two "Gradient DeskLAB" SCSI DSP boxen for audio I/O from a chair at University where they were used for speech recognition and synthesis in the context of an automatic phone-in train timetable information system. Unfortunately absolutely no documentation and/or software to go with them, not much about them in the web (except for some people stating they used them for diploma thesis and similar), so I'm looking for any information about them you could come up with. -- Arno Kletzander Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jul 3 01:57:28 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:57:28 +0100 Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1183445848.9556.19.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 00:40 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I've found pressing on the upper part of the door to be much > kinder to the pins than pulling the door open from the bottom edge (think > about what the applied force reacts against). The trick, of course, is > not to let the clamp arm slam open, but to guide the door open gently and > let the arm rise slowly I'm surprised there's not some sort of damper to slow it down. Something like the "soft eject" things on old cassette decks maybe, where you've got a little rack on the curved "rail" on the door, a little pinion and two plastic plates stuck together with grease. Or even a small dashpot like the thing on the throttle mechanism of thirstymatic cars that stops the throttle slamming shut when you lift off quickly. I'm sure cost is a consideration, but for an expensive (for the time) piece of equipment it would seem reasonable. Gordon From javickers at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 3 05:00:12 2007 From: javickers at yahoo.co.uk (Ade) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:00:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tandon TM 502 Message-ID: <861193.52202.qm@web27204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi fellow classiccmpers... I recently picked up an old Act Sirius 1 machine (I've been looking for one for years), which has a Tandon TM 502 harddisk in it. Unfortunately, the HDD doesn't seem to work :( It spins up, by the sounds of it, but is not talking to the computer. There's no head noises of any description. Where would I start in trying to diagnose & fix this drive? I have an elderly oscilloscope, but little else in the way of diagnostic tools (no logic analyser, for example). Or am I better off considering it scrap & trying to find a working replacement? Personally, I'd prefer to resurrect this one if I can. Cheers, Ade. ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 07:05:38 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 05:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RiscOS hardware in the US? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <44395.33832.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Are you talking about RISC/os, the SysV/BSD hybrid > sold by MIPS for > their R3000 and later processors? > > The Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation series used > this operating > system. I have two machines intact and a complete > set of RISC/os > documentation. Evans & Sutherland? Now _that's_ an interesting beast. I had no idea that's what their OS was called - that's really cool. Got any pictures? I was referring to the RiscOS operating system that ran on the Acorn Archimedes computer (based on the ARM processor). One of those little computers you just don't see in the US. -Ian From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 3 10:51:15 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 08:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Strange SCSI devices (was: Re: LISA) In-Reply-To: <20070703085551.61830@gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at Jul 03, 2007 10:55:51 AM Message-ID: <200707031551.l63FpF2Q029521@onyx.spiritone.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > As as aside, there were lots of very strange things on SCSI busses back > in the day. Scanners were quite common, but there actually existed > printers, and even video cards on SCSI busses. :-) I currently support two very high end 55" Xerox plotters that are attached via SCSI to the Sun workstations that convert the plots to something the plotters can handle. About 11-14 years ago I was supporting a pair of colour scanners/printer/copier devices that were SCSI attached. I'm not sure, but I think that really high end scanners are still SCSI attached. USB, while convenient, is not a good way to connect a scanner. > The SCSI video card > and ethernet card were useful for compact Macs that had a scsi port, but > no expansion slots. I've not seen a SCSI video card, but have a SCSI Ethernet for my Mac SE/30. Zane From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 3 10:56:22 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:56:22 -0600 Subject: RiscOS hardware in the US? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Jul 2007 05:05:38 -0700. <44395.33832.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <44395.33832.qm at web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > > Are you talking about RISC/os, the SysV/BSD hybrid > > sold by MIPS for > > their R3000 and later processors? > > > > The Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation series used > > this operating > > system. I have two machines intact and a complete > > set of RISC/os > > documentation. > > Evans & Sutherland? Now _that's_ an interesting beast. > I had no idea that's what their OS was called - that's > really cool. Got any pictures? I don't have any pictures yet, but at some point soon I expect to be buying a digital camera and will be putting lots of pictures of my collection on the computer graphics history museum. RISC/os was created by MIPS and licensed to various workstation manufacturers. E&S wasn't the only one to use RISC/os. IRIX is influenced by RISC/os but is not a pure derivative of it, according to . I guess IRIX was around on the 68K based SGI boxes before they mvoed to the MIPS architcture. > I was referring to the RiscOS operating system that > ran on the Acorn Archimedes computer (based on the ARM > processor). One of those little computers you just > don't see in the US. OK, makese sense now and yeah, I don't see those around :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 3 11:18:34 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:18:34 -0600 Subject: Strange SCSI devices (was: Re: LISA) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:51:15 -0700. <200707031551.l63FpF2Q029521@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200707031551.l63FpF2Q029521 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > I'm not sure, but I think that really high end scanners are still SCSI > attached. USB, while convenient, is not a good way to connect a scanner. USB scanners are a recent phenomenon, as USB is relatively recent. Before USB had decent transfer rates (USB 2?), SCSI was the defacto way to connect scanners to a PC, Mac or workstation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 3 11:39:45 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:39:45 -0700 Subject: Diehl Combitron (Was: "Oddball"(LGP-30) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Rick Bensene" ---snip--- > >Slightly off-topic, but still within the "Classic Computer" realm: I'm >currently in the process of doing this for the Wang 720C calculator. I >have successfully dumped the microcode out of the machine, and have >written a simulator in Perl that simulates the hardware environment of >the calculator, and executes the microcode. I've still got a few minor >glitches in the simulation, but for the most part, everything works. >The only problem I have at this point is that for some reason, the base >10 logarithm function gives a result that is the base e logarithm rather >than the base 10 log. The base e logarithm function (clearly) works >fine. The microcode appears to be heavily shared for these two >functions, so there's probably something wrong with some implementation >of the machine's logic in the simulation that causes a branch to be >missed, or mis-interpreted. ---snip--- Hi Rick I was going to mention that calculating logs is generally done the same way in calculators, regardless of the base. They usually calculate it in base 2 and then multiply by a constant to change to a different base. as an example: log2(n)*ln(2)=ln(n) log2(n)*log(2)=log(n) or if calculates the natural log first ln(n)*log(e)=log(n) or even log(n)*ln(10)=log(n) if it does decimal log first. I hope this helps some. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 11:44:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:44:33 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM 502 In-Reply-To: <861193.52202.qm@web27204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <861193.52202.qm@web27204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <468A1A81.15807.E9DB7DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2007 at 11:00, Ade wrote: > I recently picked up an old Act Sirius 1 machine (I've been looking for one for > years), which has a Tandon TM 502 harddisk in it. Unfortunately, the HDD > doesn't seem to work :( > > It spins up, by the sounds of it, but is not talking to the computer. There's > no head noises of any description.> Fortunately, the old drives use pretty ordinary componentry, so troubleshooting and repair of the electronics board is pretty easy, but if the HDA itself has problems, you have a tough job ahead of you. In my experience, the TM502 was an unreliable drive. One of the local parts dealers was using them as doorstops. When I asked about them, he said that he'd sell me his entire stock for $5. No--not $5 apiece, but $5 for the entire lot--but I had to take the entire lot. These were supposedly working pulls. I came home with about 20 of the things and was so underwhelmed by the reliability of the ones I managed to get working that I scrapped the entire bunch. Life's too short and I felt that I was cheated out of $5. There are better 10MB MFM drives if you can find them. There's nothing magic, IIRC, about the TM502. I still have old Rodimes and CMIs and Seagates, but no Tandons. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jul 3 11:54:02 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:54:02 -0700 Subject: giveaways Message-ID: <765183689f15017c367b7fa038cee18c@valleyimplants.com> Xylogics 451 SMD controller (Multibus) Sun VME SCSI board (Sun-II, includes 9U-6U adaptor) Sun Carrera Memory Diablo 630 serial daisywheel printer (includes extra ribbons) Wyse WY-150 serial terminal Sun SPARCstation 5/110 256MB (will run NeXTSTEP! Wohoo!) any number of AT-style keyboards and now, for something completely different: an AT&T daisy-wheel typewriter. I think these all work, but I don't have the time to test them. Renton, WA. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 3 12:02:32 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:02:32 -0500 Subject: PERQness... Message-ID: <468A8128.9000509@yahoo.co.uk> Spent a fun morning messing around with a PERQ 1, which is the first time I've ever got the chance to actually sit in front of a working example... A few questions: 1) The hard disk (Shugart SA4008) drive belt seems to have a habit of running 1mm or so out of line at startup, resulting in it rubbing against the chassis beneath the spindle pulley. Once it picks up speed it sorts itself out, but I was wondering whether there's any adjustment in either the spindle pulley or drive motor in order to get it to run a little better? 2) From PNX, Is there an official way of logging out a user on the console other than ^Z? (^D, logout, exit etc. don't work) 3) Shutdown procedure - is 'bye' sufficient or do I need to be doing something else first? The manual's a little ambiguous on this (and 'bye' alone executes so unbelievably quickly that it made me worry it wasn't correctly flushing files, parking heads etc.) (I seriously love that hard disk - it's got a wonderful backyard-engineering made-from-washing-machine-parts feel to it :-) cheers Jules From shumaker at att.net Tue Jul 3 12:21:50 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:21:50 -0700 Subject: giveaways In-Reply-To: <765183689f15017c367b7fa038cee18c@valleyimplants.com> References: <765183689f15017c367b7fa038cee18c@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200707031721.l63HLipd092087@keith.ezwind.net> Obviously, local pickup is encouraged, but is pack and ship also an option? s shumaker At 09:54 AM 7/3/2007, you wrote: >Xylogics 451 SMD controller (Multibus) >Sun VME SCSI board (Sun-II, includes 9U-6U adaptor) >Sun Carrera Memory >Diablo 630 serial daisywheel printer (includes extra ribbons) >Wyse WY-150 serial terminal >Sun SPARCstation 5/110 256MB (will run NeXTSTEP! Wohoo!) >any number of AT-style keyboards >and now, for something completely different: >an AT&T daisy-wheel typewriter. > >I think these all work, but I don't have the time to test them. Renton, WA. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 3 13:10:23 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: giveaways In-Reply-To: <765183689f15017c367b7fa038cee18c@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Jul 03, 2007 09:54:02 AM Message-ID: <200707031810.l63IANCq000713@onyx.spiritone.com> > Sun Carrera Memory What on earth is a "Sun Carrera"? > Sun SPARCstation 5/110 256MB (will run NeXTSTEP! Wohoo!) Sparc 5's also make very nice OpenBSD boxes. I like them for this, as it doesn't feel like I'm wasting a processor, like it would on a Sparc 20. If one was to run OpenBSD on this box 256MB would feel very roomy. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 3 13:16:39 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:16:39 -0700 Subject: A wealth of misinformation Message-ID: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170127828046 After reading this, I wondered if the seller had any idea at all of what he actually had. It's too bad most people won't recognize the plastic ends on the patchboard wires place this at bit later (like 50 years) in time than seems to be implied by the listing. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 3 13:17:59 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:17:59 -0700 Subject: giveaways Message-ID: <468A92D7.9060107@bitsavers.org> > What on earth is a "Sun Carrera"? 68020 cpu board (3/140, 3/160, etc.) From fryers at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 13:41:25 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 19:41:25 +0100 Subject: A wealth of misinformation In-Reply-To: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> References: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: All, On 03/07/07, Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170127828046 > > After reading this, I wondered if the seller had any idea at all > of what he actually had. > > It's too bad most people won't recognize the plastic ends on the > patchboard wires place this at bit later (like 50 years) in time > than seems to be implied by the listing. There are a surprisingly large number of links on that page to www.columbia.edu, and I don't see a single reference to the source. Plagiarism I guess. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From fryers at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 13:51:49 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 19:51:49 +0100 Subject: A wealth of misinformation In-Reply-To: References: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: G'Day, On 03/07/07, Simon Fryer wrote: > All, > > On 03/07/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170127828046 > > > > After reading this, I wondered if the seller had any idea at all > > of what he actually had. [...] > There are a surprisingly large number of links on that page to > www.columbia.edu, and I don't see a single reference to the source. > Plagiarism I guess. Yes, I know it is bad form to reply to my own emails. Source for most of the item description is at: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/tabulator.html An interesting site and I am going to have to have a poke around when I get home. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 14:08:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:08:09 -0700 Subject: A wealth of misinformation In-Reply-To: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> References: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <468A3C29.3752.F2134EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2007 at 11:16, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170127828046 > > After reading this, I wondered if the seller had any idea at all > of what he actually had. Crikey, Al, if you depend on the eBay sellers as a source of information, things must be pretty bad by you. I've given up telling eBay sellers what they're really trying to sell after getting too many "No it's not" replies. Let buyer and seller believe what they want. Who am I to interfere with their version of reality? Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:19:08 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:19:08 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <200707031709.l63H8JkW050424@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707031709.l63H8JkW050424@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 3 Jul, 2007, at 18:09, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > From: "Andy Holt" > Initially most were printing terminals with > lights inside, not Teletypes, can't remember the maker's name. > <<< > Probably Trend Maybe, though it doesn't ring any bells in my head. > >>>> > There was also just two CRT terminals, on which you typed a load of > lines > and told the computer to read it. > <<< > Could well have been "genuine" ICL block-mode terminals Yes they we ICL badged IIRC, I think the two shared a box on the floor with the character generator in it. > >>>> > Do you think the drum got kicked out when we went over to the 4S? > <<< > Probably when they went to a dual '4S configuration - > they really tried to have a resilient system - each 4S had its own > motor-generator set and _all_ the peripherals were "Y"-switched. > > The flaw in the configuration only appeared when the power-supply > to the Y switches failed :-( > > [actually, they could have kept running even then, but the Engineers > naturally refused to work on that without turning the power off] Seems reasonable. I remember one day the 1900 at QMC went down and we users were getting annoyed at the delay and we asked what was up, and were told the air conditioning system had failed and under the raised floor they had found nearly a foot of water. This was on the fifth floor! Thinking about it now it's not feasible. The false floor had ramps up from the normal floor at the computer room entrance, so the water would have flowed out under the ramp and down the stair well and lift shaft. Still, the story kept us quiet for a while. > > >>>> > Was it really that slow! We really put up with a lot back then. > <<< > > I've still got the timings from the acceptance benchmarks and > have run the same benchmarks on many machines since. > ** the most important of these benchmarks was the original "Whetstone" > benchmark - Fortran carefully crafted to not be optimisable*1 - in > fact > in ran slower on the optimising compiler than on the standard one. > > *1 eventually (20 years later) compiler technology did manage to > optimise away much of the code. As an ex-compiler writer (Coral 66) working for a computer manufacturer, I can say that we considered running the program up to the first input/output at compile time and starting execution from there. We figured the resulting benchmark timings would get us called cheats. Could have calculated the real runtime and halved it I suppose. My 1301 simulator now runs faster than real time so I'm thinking about yielding the CPU whenever simulated time gets ahead of real time. > >> (I think they were still, however, written in engineers assembler >> which used >> numeric op-codes rather than the mnemonics of PLAN or GIN5). > >>>> > Interesting. Maybe it was like my school maths teachers who forced us > to use fountain pens instead of ball points because it slowed us down > so we thought more about what we were doing and so made less > mistakes. > <<< > No - it was that the engineers _knew_ the ciruit diagram of the > processor > and "000 3 100" was more meaningful to them than "LDX 3 base", say. I see. I had to write a microprogram assembler once and that was similar. The words were 72 bits wide and most of the bits just directly controlled gates in the processor. There was an address field for jump instructions though, which was more traditional, and I gave them the facility to define macros for any field, so they could have defined their own mnemonics for commonly occurring patterns. For instance some of the bits selected the function in some AMD2900 bit slices, which could have used the names assigned by AMD. >>>> > > Very difficult. I had always assumed the executive lived at a fixed > position in memory. Maybe it used relativisers, 1300 style, where > every instruction could specify what block start address should be > added to it, but maybe that would slow down loading the overlays too > much. > <<< > The fixed part of Exec loaded at 0 - but the overlays could be on any > 64-word boundary.(actually, probably 128 word - but the code would > have > worked > on a 54 word boundary) > >>>> > I wonder if any of the concepts in the 1302 executive got re- > used on 1900. > <<< > I don't know, but I doubt it - wasn't the 1300 series a Stevenage > design, > while the earliest 1900s came from West Gorton (well, actually the > earliest 1900 was the Canadian FP6000). > Different parts of ICL had very much a "not invented here" attitude > and > the previous West Gorton product was Atlas. 1300/1301 was designed by Raymond Bird who worked for British Tabulating Machines at Letchworth (starting with adapting someone else's design to make the HEC / ICT200 series), then presumably moved to the joint BTM / GEC subsidiary Computer Developments Ltd at Kenton where he did the 1300/1301 design. I am not sure who/where adapted it to make the multi-programmed 1302 (maximum 4 programs at once). Am I right in thinking Atlas did not have an executive? > >>>> > Maybe ICL had been bumping up the maintenance charges for old kit > they really did not want to support any more. > <<< > That wouldn't have affected us - we had our own engineers and did > our own maintenance. I suspect we were the only none-MOD site > in that position. I wish I had saved more of the engineering > documentation - > I probably have enough to make a very close approximation on a FPGA, > but there doesn't seem to be a survivng operators Exec for a 1900, > only George 3 stuff. Oh, from which I presume there are no surviving 1900s? Can you run George 3 without an executive? I only got involved as a user (Maximop/George 2 at QMC and IIRC, George 4 at RAE Fanrborough) so know almost nothing about operating the machine. Odd facts did trickle down though, switch 9 was used to disable the overflow exception, and SWON 9 and SWOFF 9 in software around the place where I was packing characters into a word would make my program run. Funny how the most trivial things stick in your head for decades. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 14:24:54 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 14:24:54 -0500 Subject: A wealth of misinformation In-Reply-To: <468A3C29.3752.F2134EA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> <468A3C29.3752.F2134EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707031224j780f93ebod6629d6f59acc297@mail.gmail.com> > On 3 Jul 2007 at 11:16, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170127828046 > > > > After reading this, I wondered if the seller had any idea at all > > of what he actually had. So what is it, really? The seller is only a few minutes from me. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 3 14:57:11 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:57:11 -0400 Subject: giveaways In-Reply-To: <200707031810.l63IANCq000713@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200707031810.l63IANCq000713@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <19E66F37-6538-44D1-9C10-6ACADB850EE4@neurotica.com> On Jul 3, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Sun Carrera Memory > > What on earth is a "Sun Carrera"? "Carrera" is the Sun 3/100 CPU, sold in systems as the 3/75, 3/140, 3/150, 3/160, and 3/180 depending on the chassis it's plugged into. It's built around a 68020 at 16MHz, and has 4MB of RAM onboard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 3 15:01:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:01:46 -0400 Subject: A wealth of misinformation In-Reply-To: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> References: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0E5672CC-20CA-4072-97B2-DD26A06BCC70@neurotica.com> On Jul 3, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170127828046 > > After reading this, I wondered if the seller had any idea at all > of what he actually had. Clearly not...but very neat just the same! > It's too bad most people won't recognize the plastic ends on the > patchboard wires place this at bit later (like 50 years) in time > than seems to be implied by the listing. "Technically clueless" + "desire to cash in" is always a bad combination. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:46:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:46:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: TM100 doors In-Reply-To: <4689DAA7.5060505@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Jul 2, 7 11:12:07 pm Message-ID: > Some how I can't picture a sandbox in a college. Then again > sometimes I wonder just what level of education some of > schools are teaching -- it could be real soon they are manditory. > Windows programing courses seem to be where the teaching is nowdays > - No more computer science 101. Over hear it seems to be Windows _using_ courses. Not even programming :-(. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 15:04:29 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 21:04:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: PERQness... In-Reply-To: <468A8128.9000509@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 3, 7 12:02:32 pm Message-ID: > > > Spent a fun morning messing around with a PERQ 1, which is the first time I've > ever got the chance to actually sit in front of a working example... > > A few questions: > > 1) The hard disk (Shugart SA4008) drive belt seems to have a habit of > running 1mm or so out of line at startup, resulting in it rubbing against the > chassis beneath the spindle pulley. Once it picks up speed it sorts itself > out, but I was wondering whether there's any adjustment in either the spindle > pulley or drive motor in order to get it to run a little better? IIRC those pulleys are 'crowned' -- that is they are convex. The belt will run towards the edge when it's running slowly, and will come to the middle when it's up to speed. I don't know of anything you can do about this. Maybe fiddle with the motor position, but.... The SA4000 service manual that I have has full schematics and PCB layouts but nothing on the mechanical side at all. [...] > 3) Shutdown procedure - is 'bye' sufficient or do I need to be doing > something else first? The manual's a little ambiguous on this (and 'bye' alone > executes so unbelievably quickly that it made me worry it wasn't correctly > flushing files, parking heads etc.) I always did sync 3 times before bye. It can't hurt. bye will park the heads on a PERQ1 (or 1A), but puts them in totally the wrong place on later machines (!). > > (I seriously love that hard disk - it's got a wonderful backyard-engineering > made-from-washing-machine-parts feel to it :-) It is rather fun. I assume you know to lock the positioner and the spindle before moving the machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:57:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:57:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tandon TM 502 In-Reply-To: <861193.52202.qm@web27204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "Ade" at Jul 3, 7 11:00:12 am Message-ID: > > Hi fellow classiccmpers... > > I recently picked up an old Act Sirius 1 machine (I've been looking for one for > years), which has a Tandon TM 502 harddisk in it. Unfortunately, the HDD > doesn't seem to work :( Unfortunately my Srius is the twin-floppy model, so all the notes I made on how that works are not going to be a lot of use. > > It spins up, by the sounds of it, but is not talking to the computer. There's > no head noises of any description. Is it old enough to be a stepper motor positioned? Some of those do not restroe to cylinder 0 at power-on, so the heads won't move unless told to do so by the controller board. It's possible there's a problem with the controller, therefore. > > Where would I start in trying to diagnose & fix this drive? I have an elderly > oscilloscope, but little else in the way of diagnostic tools (no logic > analyser, for example). Or am I better off considering it scrap & trying to > find a working replacement? Personally, I'd prefer to resurrect this one if I > can. I assume this is a normal ST506 interface. I'd start by looking at the signals there -- is the machine trying to select thr drive, does it send STEP pulses, and so on. At lest then you'll know which drvice (controller or deive) has the problem -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:53:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:53:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <1183445848.9556.19.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jul 3, 7 07:57:28 am Message-ID: > I'm surprised there's not some sort of damper to slow it down. Indeed. I guess they assumed that users would be careful with such an expensive drive. I don't know whether it's bevcause I know how these things are made, and the sort of materials used, but I rarely break things like this muself. I guess I know the sort of force it could stand, and if it appears to be needing more, I investigate rather than force it. > Something like the "soft eject" things on old cassette decks maybe, > where you've got a little rack on the curved "rail" on the door, a > little pinion and two plastic plates stuck together with grease. Or There is a similar damper in the eject mechanism of the Sony full-height 3.5" drives. It's a round black thing at the back, near the head load solenoid. It often seems to be leaking grease... I've seen them in some later 3.5" drives too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:48:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:48:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <200707030128.51968.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jul 3, 7 01:28:51 am Message-ID: [Panasonic Senior Partner] > What sort of info were you looking for, in particular? Anything techncial :-). I assume it's pretty much an XT clone, so programming/using it should be no problem. I guess scheamtics are too much to hope for, though... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 3 14:56:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:56:34 -0500 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: References: <200707031709.l63H8JkW050424@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <468AA9F2.5000103@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Holmes wrote: >> I probably have enough to make a very close approximation on a FPGA, >> but there doesn't seem to be a survivng operators Exec for a 1900, >> only George 3 stuff. > > Oh, from which I presume there are no surviving 1900s? There looks to be one at the Science Museum's Wroughton facility (and a 1500) - trouble is it's hard to judge from the asset listing how complete it/they are. And of course, even if they are complete, how many years of effort it would take to make operational. And of course, what software they have even assuming the hardware could be made to run. :-( From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 3 15:15:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:15:56 -0400 Subject: TM100 doors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C51DDC-8A98-4A42-8643-361D3089B68A@neurotica.com> On Jul 3, 2007, at 3:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Some how I can't picture a sandbox in a college. Then again >> sometimes I wonder just what level of education some of >> schools are teaching -- it could be real soon they are manditory. >> Windows programing courses seem to be where the teaching is nowdays >> - No more computer science 101. > > Over hear it seems to be Windows _using_ courses. Not even programming > :-(. Indeed. Anyone caught in that situation should demand their money back. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 15:22:53 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:22:53 -0500 Subject: Classiccmpers in WI? Message-ID: Hi, all, I'm back in Madison, WI, for the summer, starting another South Pole tour by coming into the office, ordering a bit of this and that, and doing a bit of training. I have wheels, and potentially some free time here and there. If there's anyone in the area, especially anyone into DEC hardware, Commodore hardware (PET and/or Amigas), or 1970s micros (1802, 6502...), perhaps we can connect. Either way, I'm still in striking distance for VCFmw and should see a number of you there. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 3 15:26:12 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:26:12 -0700 Subject: PERQness... Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson ---snip--- > > 1) The hard disk (Shugart SA4008) drive belt seems to have a habit of >running 1mm or so out of line at startup, resulting in it rubbing against >the chassis beneath the spindle pulley. Once it picks up speed it sorts >itself out, but I was wondering whether there's any adjustment in either >the spindle pulley or drive motor in order to get it to run a little >better? > Hi This is an indication that the belt is slipping. Three things. Either the belt is loose, it has dust on it or the belt has taken a set from the crown. You should try cleaning first. If the drive doesn't retract the heads, be vary careful to not rotate the disk pull backwards. If you do, it will trash the disk if the head is on the disk. The motor is usually on a slotted mount to adjust tension. The belt can be flipped over if it shows too much deforming from the crowned pulley. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 15:44:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:44:30 -0500 Subject: Strange SCSI devices (was: Re: LISA) In-Reply-To: <200707031551.l63FpF2Q029521@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20070703085551.61830@gmx.net> <200707031551.l63FpF2Q029521@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 7/3/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've not seen a SCSI video card, but have a SCSI Ethernet for my Mac SE/30. I've used those on compact Macs with good success. I've always wondered if there is enough information out there to write a driver to use them on a generic platform. Are there any models of SCSI-ethernet with deciphered internals? Really, I suppose, it wouldn't be hard to hang a SCSI analyzer between a compact Mac and the SCSI adapter and sniff out the protocol, but I don't happen to have a SCSI analyzer. Did anyone do this already, or have folks just figured there are easier ways to add Ethernet to small machines? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 15:49:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:49:45 -0700 Subject: Tandon TM 502 In-Reply-To: References: <861193.52202.qm@web27204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "Ade" at Jul 3, 7 11:00:12 am, Message-ID: <468A53F9.30429.F7E3A7E@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2007 at 20:57, Tony Duell wrote: > Is it old enough to be a stepper motor positioned? Some of those do not > restroe to cylinder 0 at power-on, so the heads won't move unless told to > do so by the controller board. It's possible there's a problem with the > controller, therefore. Stepper model, basically the Tandon version of the ST412. Bitsavers has a users manual for the TM500 series and a maintenance manual for the TM602, which might be pretty close. IIRC, these things were used on some of the Tandy boxes. Vanilla-plain 306 cylinder, 4 head, 1st generation buffered seek MFM drive. Cheers, Chuck From jrr at flippers.com Tue Jul 3 14:09:04 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:09:04 -0700 Subject: A wealth of misinformation In-Reply-To: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> References: <468A9287.80900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 11:16 AM -0700 7/3/07, Al Kossow wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170127828046 > >After reading this, I wondered if the seller had any idea at all >of what he actually had. > >It's too bad most people won't recognize the plastic ends on the >patchboard wires place this at bit later (like 50 years) in time >than seems to be implied by the listing. The article was entirely cut & pasted from Columbia University as well... http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/tabulator.html John :-#(# From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 14:42:29 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:42:29 -0400 Subject: Making disk images of NorthStar hard sector floppy disks with sector errors Message-ID: <008701c7bdaa$4b777b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I am restoring an old NorthStar Horizon I bought a few months ago. It came with many hard sector floppy disks I am trying to archive by making disk images. I have used Dave Dunfield's excellent NorthStar transfer utilities to make images of the disks which do not contain sector errors. Fortunately, the majority of the disks can be read error free, however, there are several disks which have sector errors I would like to recover the data from. There is a technique I have found to make disk images of hard sector floppy disks with sector errors. I boot the NorthStar Horizon using the NorthStar CP/M disk and use its "COPY" utility to make a copy of the original disk but without the sectors containing errors. I can then make a disk image of the copy. I often lose some data but am able to recover most if not all the files on the disk. If anyone knows of a better way to recover data from damaged NorthStar hard sector floppy disks, I would certainly like to hear from you. In addition to using Dave Dunfield's NorthStar disk imaging program, I recently purchased a MatchPoint PC card and Uniform PC software to read NorthStar CP/M hard sector floppy disks on a PC. The MatchPoint PC card and Uniform PC software work great for copying files from NorthStar CP/M disks -- *ONLY*. I have even been able to get a sector editor (ZIPZAP) to work once the Uniform PC software has recognised a NorthStar CP/M disk and mounted it as a drive. However, these tools are limited to NorthStar CP/M disks and files only. I would like to be able to read and copy other NorthStar disk formats such as NS DOS, etc. Here is a link for ZIPZIP utility: http://www.bookcase.com/library/software/msdos.util.binedit.html Does anyone know of any software other than Uniform PC which uses the MatchPoint PC card for reading NorthStar hard sector floppy disks? Even a modified version of Uniform.sys to allow reading of any NorthStar hard sector floppy disk format would be good. A PC based utility like MS-DOS "DISKCOPY" using the MatchPoint PC card would be a good alternative. My ideal solution would be to use a MS-DOS disk imaging utility like RAWREAD to make a binary disk image of the NorthStar hard sector floppy disks directly into the PC. Unfortunately, every disk imaging tool I have tried on the PC will not do this. Most likely due since MatchPoint/Uniform only provides a "device driver" interface and not a real hardware disk drive. Maybe there are some of the original MicroSolutions developers on this list? Thanks in advance Andrew Lynch From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 3 16:27:28 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:27:28 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: References: <200707031709.l63H8JkW050424@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <468ABF40.4010407@dunnington.plus.com> > Seems reasonable. I remember one day the 1900 at QMC went down and we > users were getting annoyed at the delay and we asked what was up, and > were told the air conditioning system had failed and under the raised > floor they had found nearly a foot of water. This was on the fifth > floor! Thinking about it now it's not feasible. The false floor had > ramps up from the normal floor at the computer room entrance, so the > water would have flowed out under the ramp and down the stair well and > lift shaft. Still, the story kept us quiet for a while. Our false floor is actually at normal floor level, so the subfloor is of course about a foot lower, and I have actually seen it flood. One time the aircon went wrong; it's a type that dries the air and then re-humidifies it by passing it over a tray of warm water. The valve controlling the level failed and so did the drain. Nice. Fortunately we noticed before it rose high enough to hit the electrics. We had a different incident on Saturday after we had shut down all the power in the main machine room for safety testing. About lunchtime, when the engineers had restored some of the power, we realised there was a smell of burning -- not really what you want in your central machine room. After a few panicky minutes, we realised it was the aircon. Normally it works hard to cool the room, but it's designed to maintain a certain temperature. With all the servers switched off, it was trying for the first time in years to heat the place up, and of course the heating coils were full of dust. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 3 16:38:31 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:38:31 +0100 Subject: PERQness... In-Reply-To: <468A8128.9000509@yahoo.co.uk> References: <468A8128.9000509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <468AC1D7.3070401@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/07/2007 18:02, Jules Richardson wrote: > 1) The hard disk (Shugart SA4008) drive belt seems to have a habit of > running 1mm or so out of line at startup, resulting in it rubbing > against the chassis beneath the spindle pulley. Once it picks up speed > it sorts itself out, but I was wondering whether there's any adjustment > in either the spindle pulley or drive motor in order to get it to run a > little better? If it's a crowned pulley, that's fairly normal. Gravity pulls it down as it slows down and goes slightly slack. > 2) From PNX, Is there an official way of logging out a user on the > console other than ^Z? (^D, logout, exit etc. don't work) ^Z is presumably the end-of-file character, as is common on older UNIX systems, and that's the correct way to log out of UNIX. ^D is often the EOF character on newer UNIX systems, but you can change it using stty. > 3) Shutdown procedure - is 'bye' sufficient or do I need to be doing > something else first? The manual's a little ambiguous on this (and 'bye' > alone executes so unbelievably quickly that it made me worry it wasn't > correctly flushing files, parking heads etc.) Normally you'd have root type "sync" twice before "bye" (which probably just does a "kill -1 1" to kill process ID 1, which is init). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 3 17:05:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:05:30 -0500 Subject: PERQness... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468AC82A.3040205@yahoo.co.uk> dwight elvey wrote: > > >> From: Jules Richardson > ---snip--- >> >> 1) The hard disk (Shugart SA4008) drive belt seems to have a habit >> of running 1mm or so out of line at startup, resulting in it rubbing >> against the chassis beneath the spindle pulley. Once it picks up speed >> it sorts itself out, but I was wondering whether there's any >> adjustment in either the spindle pulley or drive motor in order to get >> it to run a little better? >> > > Hi > This is an indication that the belt is slipping. Three things. Either > the belt is loose, it has dust on it or the belt has taken a set > from the crown. Entirely possible - the first time I powered the machine up (after various sanity checks, obviously) it worked, but the next time around the belt actually slipped off. I ended up turning it inside-out as I figured it might just be getting a little worn and might fare better if turned over. It's not slipped off since (several cycles later), but I did notice this thing about it running slightly 'low' at startup. > You should try cleaning first. If the drive doesn't retract the > heads, be vary careful to not rotate the disk pull backwards. > If you do, it will trash the disk if the head is on the disk. I figured as much from the warning stickers :-) > The motor is usually on a slotted mount to adjust tension. Hmm, I didn't notice an obvious tension adjust on this one, but I'll take a proper look when I see the machine next in a few days. Once it was booted I got a bit caught up in the coolness of it all :-) (And damn, that machine's loud with the covers off!) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 17:28:31 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic luggable In-Reply-To: <1183445848.9556.19.camel@elric> References: <1183445848.9556.19.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20070703152528.N7418@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I'm surprised there's not some sort of damper to slow it down. > Something like the "soft eject" things on old cassette decks maybe, > where you've got a little rack on the curved "rail" on the door, a > little pinion and two plastic plates stuck together with grease. Or > even a small dashpot like the thing on the throttle mechanism of > thirstymatic cars that stops the throttle slamming shut when you lift > off quickly. > I'm sure cost is a consideration, but for an expensive (for the time) > piece of equipment it would seem reasonable. When handled properly, it's not a problem. They failed to realize the level of ABUSE that they would have to endure. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 3 17:34:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:34:01 -0500 Subject: PERQness... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468ACED9.9060101@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> 1) The hard disk (Shugart SA4008) drive belt seems to have a habit of >> running 1mm or so out of line at startup, resulting in it rubbing against the >> chassis beneath the spindle pulley. Once it picks up speed it sorts itself >> out, but I was wondering whether there's any adjustment in either the spindle >> pulley or drive motor in order to get it to run a little better? > > IIRC those pulleys are 'crowned' -- that is they are convex. The belt > will run towards the edge when it's running slowly, and will come to the > middle when it's up to speed. I don't know of anything you can do about > this. Maybe fiddle with the motor position, but.... Yep... I just wondered if the pulleys were deliberately shimmed to allow a bit of fine tuning either way or something. It's not really that big a deal - I'd just rather a belt that didn't drag at all just to keep wear as low as I can. > The SA4000 service manual that I have has full schematics and PCB layouts > but nothing on the mechanical side at all. There's probably a Hoover manual somewhere covering the mechanical side ;) >> 3) Shutdown procedure - is 'bye' sufficient or do I need to be doing >> something else first? The manual's a little ambiguous on this (and 'bye' alone >> executes so unbelievably quickly that it made me worry it wasn't correctly >> flushing files, parking heads etc.) > > I always did sync 3 times before bye. It can't hurt. True. I don't remember the manual I was looking at for sure - I think it was "Guide to PNX" or somesuch, big thing about an inch thick. It mentioned 'bye' and 'shutdown' (in tandem with issuing a kill) in the same paragraph but wasn't too clear on what exactly did what. I think I'm just too used to newer UNIX systems that take a few minutes to shutdown, so the couple of seconds or so of the PERQ just seemed way too fast :-) > bye will park the heads on a PERQ1 (or 1A), but puts them in totally the > wrong place on later machines (!). Ouch. Yes, I think I've read that somewhere before (probably on here!) >> (I seriously love that hard disk - it's got a wonderful backyard-engineering >> made-from-washing-machine-parts feel to it :-) > > It is rather fun. I assume you know to lock the positioner and the > spindle before moving the machine. Yep. I made a fuss about it a while ago when we needed to move our other PERQ 1 :-) From pdp11 at saccade.com Tue Jul 3 16:52:06 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:52:06 -0700 Subject: [Somewhat OT] Extra-terrestrials and 1980's printers In-Reply-To: <959F65EC-62A7-42BE-9A07-2F97D1D8C7E4@retrobbs.org> References: <468546EC.90608@bitsavers.org> <46854A83.5040705@atarimuseum.com> <4685C21F.6010005@gmail.com> <959F65EC-62A7-42BE-9A07-2F97D1D8C7E4@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <200707032252.l63MpxO7014094@keith.ezwind.net> Here's an odd one for you: Coast To Coast AM (UFOs, Ghosts, ETs etc.) has been running a story about strange spacecraft buzzing around (where else?) California. Recently somebody claimed to have spent the 1980's working at a secret lab in Palo Alto trying to "commercialize" the extra-terrestrial technology: http://isaaccaret.fortunecity.com/ Now, veracity-wise, these photos and "documents" have problems: - Nobody is coming forward and identifying themselves. - In the top-left and top-right photos, if the camera exposed the sky for a neutral blue, the underside of the craft would be very under-exposed (almost black) like the middle photo and the underside of the leaves and power pole. - If the lab was as secure as the author claims it is, "TOP SECRET" or somesuch classification would be clearly stamped on every(!) page. - The final problem is with the look of the documents. While there are some nice touches (three-hole punch marks on the cover...remember those ubiquitous binders?) the documents have nice fonts and formatting, and look laser-printed. Now, in 1986, the number of systems available capable of producing such documents "in house" was fairly limited. You did have the LaserWriter, but it had just come out and the document doesn't look like it's using one of the original LW fonts. The other options were Scribe, TeX, Xerox, maybe InterLeaf...and not much else. Integrating a digital photo into a document was a royal pain back then, and scanners were still exotic equipment. I'm curious - does anybody recognize which system produced the documents? I'd be impressed if hoaxers went to the trouble of tracking down vintage equipment to produce them. Overall the story the web page tells is pretty entertaining. One wonders if this is a viral marketing campaign for a sci-fi movie next year. Cheers, jp From pdp11 at saccade.com Tue Jul 3 16:56:44 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:56:44 -0700 Subject: LISA In-Reply-To: <959F65EC-62A7-42BE-9A07-2F97D1D8C7E4@retrobbs.org> References: <468546EC.90608@bitsavers.org> <46854A83.5040705@atarimuseum.com> <4685C21F.6010005@gmail.com> <959F65EC-62A7-42BE-9A07-2F97D1D8C7E4@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <200707032252.l63MpxSW014095@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, >I also learned to program in Oregon Software Pascal II (on a >decwriter hooked up to a pdp 11/70) so seeing a whole OS written in >Pascal (and assembly I bet) would be really interesting. You should track down one of the Apollo DOMAIN workstations (c. 1981-1990). Their OS was originally written in Pascal, and in some ways more extensive and robust than the Lisa OS (real VM, networked filesystem, etc). Towards the end more parts of it (e.g., the TCP/IP stack) were implemented in C as Unix began encroaching on it. By the end of the decade, Unix was the only way to survive in the Workstation biz. The DOMAIN OS sources were released outside of Apollo to certain favored customers (we had a copy of it at our university). Apollo was acquired by HP in the early '90s, so any official release would need to come from there. FYI, jp From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 3 18:35:55 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Strange SCSI devices (was: Re: LISA) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 03, 2007 03:44:30 PM Message-ID: <200707032335.l63NZu7T006844@onyx.spiritone.com> > > On 7/3/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I've not seen a SCSI video card, but have a SCSI Ethernet for my Mac SE/30. > > I've used those on compact Macs with good success. I've always > wondered if there is enough information out there to write a driver to > use them on a generic platform. Are there any models of SCSI-ethernet > with deciphered internals? Really, I suppose, it wouldn't be hard to > hang a SCSI analyzer between a compact Mac and the SCSI adapter and > sniff out the protocol, but I don't happen to have a SCSI analyzer. > > Did anyone do this already, or have folks just figured there are > easier ways to add Ethernet to small machines? > > -ethan > I think the Asante device is really all there is for the SCSI-to-Ethernet devices. ISTR, Atari TOS users being interested in them years ago to add ethernet to systems such as the TT030. I don't remember if they succeeded. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 3 18:39:53 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:39:53 -0700 Subject: Apollo (was LISA) Message-ID: <468ADE49.6000406@bitsavers.org> > The DOMAIN OS sources were released outside of Apollo to certain > favored customers (we had a copy of it at our university). If you are still in contact with the sysadmins, ask if they have archived copies. It may actually be easier to ask permission for an old archived copy than to try to dig it up internally from an aquired HP product line. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 3 19:13:59 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 20:13:59 -0400 Subject: [Somewhat OT] Extra-terrestrials and 1980's printers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:52:06 PDT." <200707032252.l63MpxO7014094@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200707040013.l640DxLQ014301@mwave.heeltoe.com> "J. Peterson" wrote: >Here's an odd one for you: > >Coast To Coast AM (UFOs, Ghosts, ETs etc.) has been running a story >about strange spacecraft buzzing around (where else?) >California. Recently somebody claimed to have spent the 1980's >working at a secret lab in Palo Alto trying to "commercialize" the >extra-terrestrial technology: > >http://isaaccaret.fortunecity.com/ damn. I've been trying to find Chad and Jenna for years. Please tell them to email me if you find them. I still have Chad's car keys. -brad From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jul 3 19:43:41 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 17:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Strange SCSI devices (was: Re: LISA) In-Reply-To: <200707032335.l63NZu7T006844@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jul 3, 7 04:35:55 pm" Message-ID: <200707040043.l640hfe1013304@floodgap.com> > I think the Asante device is really all there is for the SCSI-to-Ethernet > devices. Dayna also. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- /etc/motd: /earth is 98% full. please delete anyone you can. --------------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 3 20:16:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:16:20 -0500 Subject: govliquidation policy? Message-ID: <000b01c7bdd8$ee84e1a0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Does anyone know the policy of govliquidation.com is on partial auction disposal? One small item I want is in a lot with 700 pounds of stuff I definitely don't want (pipe fittings, valves, etc.). If I bid on the lot and win, I'm guessing I need to take it all though and pay to have the metal junk shipped. Anyone delt with this before? Does govliquidation allow you to say "please throw the rest away" or do I need to approach the shipper? If someone has done this before, I guess the shipper would charge a disposal fee to cart off the unwanted stuff? Suggestions? Thanks! Jay West From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jul 3 20:29:42 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 18:29:42 -0700 Subject: giveaway Message-ID: <710ca97bfe015f354170ac40f11bada0@valleyimplants.com> >>> Sun Carrera Memory >> >> What on earth is a "Sun Carrera"? > > "Carrera" is the Sun 3/100 CPU, sold in systems as the 3/75, > 3/140, 3/150, 3/160, and 3/180 depending on the chassis it's plugged > into. It's built around a 68020 at 16MHz, and has 4MB of RAM onboard. > > -Dave This is just the memory expansion board- 2 or 4 MB (not sure right now) with the proper P2 wiring to expand a "Carrera" CPU (or the 3/110 CPU, I think.) I can ship some stuff if I need to, but for now it looks like the Sun stuff (sans SS5) and the Diablo are claimed (not sure if the Diablo desirer is local or not, it's a bit big.). From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 3 21:18:55 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:18:55 -0700 Subject: govliquidation policy? In-Reply-To: <000b01c7bdd8$ee84e1a0$6600a8c0@JWEST> References: <000b01c7bdd8$ee84e1a0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <468B038F.6050702@sbcglobal.net> Jay West wrote: > Does anyone know the policy of govliquidation.com is on partial > auction disposal? > > One small item I want is in a lot with 700 pounds of stuff I > definitely don't want (pipe fittings, valves, etc.). If I bid on the > lot and win, I'm guessing I need to take it all though and pay to have > the metal junk shipped. Anyone delt with this before? Does > govliquidation allow you to say "please throw the rest away" or do I > need to approach the shipper? If someone has done this before, I guess > the shipper would charge a disposal fee to cart off the unwanted > stuff? Suggestions? > > Thanks! > > Jay West > I have done this a few times. From the govliq point of view, you need to take it all. I ended up paying the shipper to haul the rest to a local recycler. It was a lot cheaper than shipping it all to me. On some smaller lots, that I had picked up by a UPS store, they disposed of the extra stuff for free. Bob From rcini at optonline.net Tue Jul 3 21:33:50 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:33:50 -0400 Subject: EIA connectors Message-ID: All: I came across a video monitor for one of my machines that has an 8-pin rectangular connector with locking tabs. I remember from my days as an audio-video geek in high school that this is sometimes called an ?EIA connector?. I remember we used these cables to connect JVC and Sony VTR equipment. I?ve done some searching in my usual catalogs and I can?t seem to locate this connector. Does anyone happen to have a manufacturer name/part number for this so I can narrow my search a bit? Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jul 3 21:37:55 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 03:37:55 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <651492.35085.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004601c7bde4$553a5d70$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>>> You don't need an IBM compatible BIOS to run >>>>MS-DOS.... >> >>> care to share an example? >> >> Victor 9000/Sirius 1 > > Loads bios from disk like a Tandy 2000.... Now I start to see the cause of your confusion. Most (all?) non-IBM PC compatible MS-DOS machines load a BIOS from disc at boot time. The IBM is fairly unusual in having it all in ROM. Yes, MS-DOS needs *A* BIOS to operate, but that BIOS has to be "MS-DOS compatible" for want of a better phrase (and tailored to that particular hardware) rather than "IBM compatible". >....And the T2K is one of the most compatible of the pseudos at >the BIOS/DOS level There's nothing preventing a manufacturer from writing a BIOS for their machine which has the same functions, entry points etc as IBM's BIOS if that's what they want as long as they have the appropriate permissions. That only became an issue when the PC rose to the top of the pile and "IBM compatability" became desirable; whereupon the non-compatibles faded into obscurity. >> ACT Apricot PC series/ "F" series / "Xen" series >>(prior to "Xen-i") > > Not sure. I am, I've owned, used, hacked and programmed all of them.... >> Sanyo MBC-555 > > I'd be real surprised if it was true of this one. Then look it up on the 'net and prepare to be surprised.... :-) >>....and many, *many* more....I.E. MS-DOS<>IBM >> compatible! > > Name them. I think you're totally *totally* >exaggerating. And I think, that rather than taking the lazy option you should find a couple of on-line computer museums and see for yourself....there is *plenty* of information about this out there if you actually bother to look. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 21:40:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 19:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EIA connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070703193840.R15575@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I came across a video monitor for one of my machines that has an 8-pin > rectangular connector with locking tabs. I remember from my days as an > audio-video geek in high school that this is sometimes called an ?EIA > connector?. I remember we used these cables to connect JVC and Sony VTR > equipment. > I?ve done some searching in my usual catalogs and I can?t seem to locate > this connector. Does anyone happen to have a manufacturer name/part number > for this so I can narrow my search a bit? The one on my Sony monitor (from reel to reel tape days) says "Honda"! But I've never seen any acknowledgement from Honda that they were ever involved in anything like that. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 3 21:47:29 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:47:29 -0700 Subject: PERQness... In-Reply-To: <468AC82A.3040205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson ----snip--- > >>The motor is usually on a slotted mount to adjust tension. > >Hmm, I didn't notice an obvious tension adjust on this one, but I'll take a >proper look when I see the machine next in a few days. Once it was booted I >got a bit caught up in the coolness of it all :-) (And damn, that >machine's loud with the covers off!) > Hi Don't over tighten or it will slip off even at speed. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 3 22:07:45 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 20:07:45 -0700 Subject: [Absolutely OT] Extra-terrestrials and 1980's printers Message-ID: <468B0F01.4080005@bitsavers.org> > a secret lab in Palo Alto > Overall the story the web page tells is pretty entertaining. uh huh.. No one who wanted to stay anonymous would say "first exposure to a Tixo during grad school". There only was ONE TX-0 and it was at MIT, so it is "Tixo" or "the Tixo" not "a Tixo". Even if it was a typo, the grad students who used TX-0 and were living near Palo Alto in the mid-80's is pretty small. I can actually only think of one person, but I doubt he was involved with this :-) Besides: How do you build a "secret" 5 story underground facility in Palo Alto with and 1) have the right number of cars in the parking lot and 2) not hit the water table. The industrial parts of PA are either in the flats next to 101 and the SF Bay or are near Foothill Expressway where almost all of the industrial parks are owned by Stanford. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 22:36:10 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <004601c7bde4$553a5d70$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <539117.66806.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Now I start to see the cause of your confusion. > > Most (all?) non-IBM PC compatible MS-DOS machines > load a BIOS from disc at > boot time. The IBM is fairly unusual in having it > all in ROM. And this amounts to confusion? If there's a BIOS present, it's irrelevant whether it resides in a chip or gets loaded from disk. > Yes, MS-DOS needs *A* BIOS to operate, but that BIOS > has to be "MS-DOS > compatible" for want of a better phrase (and > tailored to that particular > hardware) rather than "IBM compatible". Remember, I never used the term "IBM compatible", but rather "IBM style". To clarify, I guess what I meant was that DOS itself utilizes BIOS routines for hardware access - my guess. Not necessarily exclusively, but it seemed unlikely any version of MS-DOS would run on an 80x86 based computer - regardless of how close or not it's architecture was to the 5150's - you weren't running or even porting a version of DOS to it. > >....And the T2K is one of the most compatible of > the pseudos at > >the BIOS/DOS level > > There's nothing preventing a manufacturer from > writing a BIOS for their > machine which has the same functions, entry points > etc as IBM's BIOS if > that's what they want as long as they have the > appropriate permissions. You needed permissions simply to utilize the same entry points? I can imagine that being an issue today, but as long as you weren't mimicking their code too closely, you were ok. > That only became an issue when the PC rose to the > top of the pile and "IBM > compatability" became desirable; whereupon the > non-compatibles faded into > obscurity. > > > >> ACT Apricot PC series/ "F" series / "Xen" > series > >>(prior to "Xen-i") > > > > Not sure. > > I am, I've owned, used, hacked and programmed all of > them.... But did it load a BIOS from disk? I'm assuming by this that it didn't reside in a rom. > >> Sanyo MBC-555 > > > > I'd be real surprised if it was true of this > one. > > Then look it up on the 'net and prepare to be > surprised.... :-) The Sanyo was pretty much PC compatible, not totally of course, but I'm not so sure I'd classify it as a pseudo-compatible. So right there we know it had a *somewhat* IBM compatible BIOS, rom or disk based I don't know. Bill Sudbrink wrote the review in BYTE many moons ago. If he's listening in, he'd be able to answer right off the bat I suppose. HEY BILL!! You there. All I have is dial-up access at the moment, and it's generally painful to do anything more then check e-mails and whatnot. I will look into it though. > >>....and many, *many* more....I.E. MS-DOS<>IBM > >> compatible! > > > > Name them. I think you're totally *totally* > >exaggerating. > > And I think, that rather than taking the lazy option > you should find a > couple of on-line computer museums and see for > yourself....there is *plenty* > of information about this out there if you actually > bother to look. The majority of PC's were IBM compatible to a large degree and had onboard BIOS roms. If we're solely talking about strictly about pseudo-compatibles - there just weren't that *many*... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Jul 4 00:03:04 2007 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 01:03:04 -0400 Subject: [Somewhat OT] Extra-terrestrials and 1980's printers In-Reply-To: <200707032252.l63MpxO7014094@keith.ezwind.net> References: <468546EC.90608@bitsavers.org> <46854A83.5040705@atarimuseum.com> <4685C21F.6010005@gmail.com> <959F65EC-62A7-42BE-9A07-2F97D1D8C7E4@retrobbs.org> <200707032252.l63MpxO7014094@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >Now, in 1986, the number of systems available capable of producing >such documents "in house" was fairly limited. You did have the >LaserWriter, but it had just come out and the document doesn't look >like it's using one of the original LW fonts. The body font is Palatino, and specifically, it is a digital version rather than a metal or photo version, as distinguished by the serifs on "E", "p", "q", and "y". The original Laserwriter had only the "base 13" fonts (Times, Helvetica, Courier, and Symbol). The Laserwriter Plus (1986) did include Palatino (and I could be wrong, but I think that was the first appearance of the digital version); however, one of the documents is claimed to be from 1985. I'm not sure what the heading font is, but it's plainly not Helvitica, which was the only text sans-serif available on the same device as digital Palatino until the appearance of third-party Postscript fonts. You'd think people would have learned something from Dan Rather. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 00:50:28 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 22:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago Message-ID: <931021.74198.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hope this hasn't been posted yet. Do not respond to me - see email at bottom: 3 Apple II computers. 2 disk drives 2 green screen monitors w/RCA connectors Epson desktop computer Otrona portable computer Osborne Executive portable Radio Shack TRS-80 desktop Radio Shack TRS-80 portable 500 pieces 64k memory chips (20 tubes of 25 each) 1 box 8 inch disks w/software 5 Boxes original vintage software (apple, cpm and others) 3 Boxes of cables, boards and chassis 7 Boxes manuals and vintage magazines Misc. printer stands, ribbons, covers, computer stands 22 Boxes of 5 ? diskettes (approximately 1000) many with software 7 Boxes of 3 ? disks (approximately 1000) many with software Pay shipping or arrange for pick up near O?Hare airport ? Chicago About 120 cubic feet in all WILL NOT BREAK UP, WINNER TAKES ALL. Respond to 847-299-3264 ASAP Stan Sharman stan_sharman at hotmail.com Des Plaines, Illinois --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. From mail at g-lenerz.de Wed Jul 4 04:39:23 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 11:39:23 +0200 Subject: Strange SCSI devices In-Reply-To: <200707031551.l63FpF2Q029521@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20070703085551.61830@gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at Jul 03, 2007 10:55:51 AM <200707031551.l63FpF2Q029521@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <901201947.20070704113923@g-lenerz.de> Tuesday, July 3, 2007, 5:51:15 PM, you wrote: >> The SCSI video card >> and ethernet card were useful for compact Macs that had a scsi port, but >> no expansion slots. > I've not seen a SCSI video card, but have a SCSI Ethernet for my Mac SE/30. This isn't Apple, but in the good old days SGI used to offer it's Video Creator hardware either as VME or SCSI solution. Sounded hard to believe at first, but then there are scanners and other !drive stuff for SCSI as well. Some hints on that past can still be found in the online documentation for IRIX 5.3 in the vcinv manpage: http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/tpl/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?coll=0530&db=man&fname=/usr/share/catman/p_man/cat1/vcinv.z -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jul 4 06:39:58 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 06:39:58 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe's available Message-ID: <200707041044.l64Ai1mE019784@hosting.monisys.ca> Just received this - I have no idea where the machines are located, nor any other information not present in the quote below: -------------------------------------------------------------------- I have 8 apple IIe computers, plus power strips, cards, and software that are headed for the dumpster. Do you know anyone who would like to have them? Iknow this stuff sells on e-bay but I don't want to bother. Please call me (530) XXX XXXX. I don't have e-mail at home and am no longer at this school site. I hope to hear from you about possible options. Thank you. Toni -------------------------------------------------------------------- I have sufficient IIe's - if anyone else wants to follow this up, please contact me off-list and I will forward the phone number. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From javickers at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 4 05:32:39 2007 From: javickers at yahoo.co.uk (Ade) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 11:32:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tandon TM 502 Message-ID: <20070704103239.1279.qmail@web27201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > It spins up, by the sounds of it, but is not talking to the computer. > > There's no head noises of any description. > > Is it old enough to be a stepper motor positioned? Some of those do not > restroe to cylinder 0 at power-on, so the heads won't move unless told to do > so by the controller board. It's possible there's a problem with the > controller, therefore. I'm guessing it is: There's an external motor in one corner of the unit; I can't read most of the label, but the "0.9 deg./st" that I can see would suggest it's a stepper. > > > > Where would I start in trying to diagnose & fix this drive? I have an elderly > > oscilloscope, but little else in the way of diagnostic tools (no logic > > analyser, for example). Or am I better off considering it scrap & trying to > > find a working replacement? Personally, I'd prefer to resurrect this one if I > > can. > I assume this is a normal ST506 interface. I'd start by looking at the > signals there -- is the machine trying to select thr drive, does it send > STEP pulses, and so on. At lest then you'll know which drvice (controller > or deive) has the problem OK, that will give me something to work on, once I've figured out how to re-assemble the thing whilst leaving the control board accessible.... I couldn't tell you if this was a normal ST506 i/f. The control board on the drive has "TM600 uP 187345" printed on it; the Sirius' controller board has only "XEBEC SYSTEMS INC." and "Assy 104526 rev-07" as identifying marks. Does any of that help at all? I've not looked for any schematics yet, I guess that's the next thing to do. Cheers, Ade. ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 4 09:51:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 08:51:47 -0600 Subject: govliquidation policy? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Jul 2007 20:16:20 -0500. <000b01c7bdd8$ee84e1a0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: In article <000b01c7bdd8$ee84e1a0$6600a8c0 at JWEST>, "Jay West" writes: > Does anyone know the policy of govliquidation.com is on partial auction > disposal? I agree with Bob, from govliq's point of view you must haul away everything in the lot. What you do with it after that is up to you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Wed Jul 4 03:04:47 2007 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 03:04:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Classiccmpers in WI? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 03, 2007 03:22:53 PM Message-ID: <200707040804.l6484mHq014330@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Hi Ethan, I'm in Milwaukee. Happy to get together any time. Marty >Hi, all, > >I'm back in Madison, WI, for the summer, starting another South Pole >tour by coming into the office, ordering a bit of this and that, and >doing a bit of training. I have wheels, and potentially some free >time here and there. If there's anyone in the area, especially anyone >into DEC hardware, Commodore hardware (PET and/or Amigas), or 1970s >micros (1802, 6502...), perhaps we can connect. > >Either way, I'm still in striking distance for VCFmw and should see a >number of you there. > >-ethan > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 4 06:41:25 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 12:41:25 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Am I right in thinking Atlas did not have an executive? <<< Atlas had a "Supervisor" nearer a full operating system >>> Oh, from which I presume there are no surviving 1900s? Can you run George 3 without an executive? <<< George 3 (+4) had a minimal executive with (essentially) no operator facilities. David Holdsworth's 1900 emulator* emulates the interface provided by this rather than the "bare metal" * this is difficult to find - there are apparently copyright issues for the George 3 and associated software that are distributed with it. Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/885 - Release Date: 03/07/2007 10:02 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 11:38:22 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <931021.74198.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <499477.58768.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> oi if the person picking up that stuff doesn't want the Otrona, I'll sure give it a good home. It would have to be shipped though. Memory sounds nice too, but whoever picks it up I'm sure could make ample use of it. --- steven stengel wrote: > Hope this hasn't been posted yet. > Do not respond to me - see email at bottom: > > 3 Apple II computers. 2 disk drives > 2 green screen monitors w/RCA connectors > Epson desktop computer > Otrona portable computer > Osborne Executive portable > Radio Shack TRS-80 desktop > Radio Shack TRS-80 portable > 500 pieces 64k memory chips (20 tubes of 25 each) > 1 box 8 inch disks w/software > 5 Boxes original vintage software (apple, cpm and > others) > 3 Boxes of cables, boards and chassis > 7 Boxes manuals and vintage magazines > Misc. printer stands, ribbons, covers, computer > stands > 22 Boxes of 5 ? diskettes (approximately 1000) many > with software > 7 Boxes of 3 ? disks (approximately 1000) many > with software > Pay shipping or arrange for pick up near O?Hare > airport ? Chicago > About 120 cubic feet in all > > WILL NOT BREAK UP, WINNER TAKES ALL. > > Respond to 847-299-3264 ASAP > > Stan Sharman stan_sharman at hotmail.com > Des Plaines, Illinois > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 12:02:19 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice - SCSI to IDE converter (eBay Australia) Message-ID: <496199.3152.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/SCSI-to-IDE-converter_W0QQitemZ170126238112QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem are these hard to come by (or make even!). Seems like a darned handy thing to have around. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 4 12:23:56 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:23:56 -0700 Subject: Nice - SCSI to IDE converter (eBay Australia) In-Reply-To: <496199.3152.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <496199.3152.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10:02 AM -0700 7/4/07, Chris M wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/SCSI-to-IDE-converter_W0QQitemZ170126238112QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >are these hard to come by (or make even!). Seems like >a darned handy thing to have around. That looks specific to a CD-ROM. Search on "Acard", they make one that a lot of people use on Unix workstations. The "Acard" device can also be used under OpenVMS if you're lucky, but Volume Shadowing won't work from what I'm told (doesn't fully support the SCSI protocol). I don't have any, but have thought seriously about moving my data drives on OpenVMS to an IDE drive on one in order to quiet things down. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Jul 4 12:24:19 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:24:19 -0700 Subject: More stuff Message-ID: <2a4b6758105498bdcf92c76c93f00327@valleyimplants.com> Found some more stuff that I'm unlikely to use (1) the free stuff: Anyone need a LaserJet Series II for parts? It's having fuser problems, but if anyone needs other parts it's here. I also have some (EP-S?) cartridges for LJII and similar modules. (2) the probably not-so-free stuff: One Multibus SkyFFP-M-03 FPA card. As it is currently it has the IRIS extender on the back (IRIS Multibus cards are almost twice as deep as the "standard" multibus so they have a aluminum plate to extend the eject levers). Preference given to IRIS 1000/2000 owners, but I think it's the same part used in Sun-2 Multibus machines. Weitek WTL1516AJC based. Renton, WA again From jzg22 at drexel.edu Wed Jul 4 12:30:28 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 13:30:28 -0400 Subject: LISA - Roms from original machine, not LISA2? In-Reply-To: <200707041704.l64H3FhG072240@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707041704.l64H3FhG072240@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <468BD934.5090308@drexel.edu> In a somewhat related question, does anyone here have an original LISA with the twiggy floppy drives? The MESS team is looking for a dump of the LISA firmware ROMs of that version (the 'LISA 1'). Jonathan Gevaryahu jzg22 at drexel.edu From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 12:34:09 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <931021.74198.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <283067.16454.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> One "Apple II" for me please. steven stengel wrote: Hope this hasn't been posted yet. Do not respond to me - see email at bottom: 3 Apple II computers. 2 disk drives 2 green screen monitors w/RCA connectors Epson desktop computer Otrona portable computer Osborne Executive portable Radio Shack TRS-80 desktop Radio Shack TRS-80 portable 500 pieces 64k memory chips (20 tubes of 25 each) 1 box 8 inch disks w/software 5 Boxes original vintage software (apple, cpm and others) 3 Boxes of cables, boards and chassis 7 Boxes manuals and vintage magazines Misc. printer stands, ribbons, covers, computer stands 22 Boxes of 5 ? diskettes (approximately 1000) many with software 7 Boxes of 3 ? disks (approximately 1000) many with software Pay shipping or arrange for pick up near O?Hare airport ? Chicago About 120 cubic feet in all WILL NOT BREAK UP, WINNER TAKES ALL. Respond to 847-299-3264 ASAP Stan Sharman stan_sharman at hotmail.com Des Plaines, Illinois --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 4 12:45:56 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 11:45:56 -0600 Subject: More stuff- places to sell In-Reply-To: <2a4b6758105498bdcf92c76c93f00327@valleyimplants.com> References: <2a4b6758105498bdcf92c76c93f00327@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <468BDCD4.5090108@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Quinn wrote: > Found some more stuff that I'm unlikely to use I guess everybody is keeping the good stuff like PDP 8's,11's and 12's Does nobody advertize on Vintage computer marketplace? > Renton, WA again From dbwood at kc.rr.com Wed Jul 4 12:45:28 2007 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 12:45:28 -0500 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago References: <931021.74198.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09b801c7be63$1c371480$697ba8c0@epicis> I'd be very interested in the Osborne and the Epson. Douglas Wood ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven stengel" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 12:50 AM Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago > Hope this hasn't been posted yet. > Do not respond to me - see email at bottom: > > 3 Apple II computers. 2 disk drives > 2 green screen monitors w/RCA connectors > Epson desktop computer > Otrona portable computer > Osborne Executive portable > Radio Shack TRS-80 desktop > Radio Shack TRS-80 portable > 500 pieces 64k memory chips (20 tubes of 25 each) > 1 box 8 inch disks w/software > 5 Boxes original vintage software (apple, cpm and others) > 3 Boxes of cables, boards and chassis > 7 Boxes manuals and vintage magazines > Misc. printer stands, ribbons, covers, computer stands > 22 Boxes of 5 ? diskettes (approximately 1000) many with software > 7 Boxes of 3 ? disks (approximately 1000) many with software > Pay shipping or arrange for pick up near O'Hare airport - Chicago > About 120 cubic feet in all > > WILL NOT BREAK UP, WINNER TAKES ALL. > > Respond to 847-299-3264 ASAP > > Stan Sharman stan_sharman at hotmail.com > Des Plaines, Illinois > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > __________ NOD32 2377 (20070704) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From pdp11 at saccade.com Wed Jul 4 13:12:55 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 11:12:55 -0700 Subject: [Somewhat OT] Extra-terrestrials and 1980's printers Message-ID: <200707041813.l64ICxZt073286@keith.ezwind.net> Here's an odd one for you: Coast To Coast AM (UFOs, Ghosts, ETs etc.) has been running a story about strange spacecraft buzzing around (where else?) California. Recently somebody claimed to have spent the 1980's working at a secret lab in Palo Alto trying to "commercialize" the extra-terrestrial technology: http://isaaccaret.fortunecity.com/ Now, veracity-wise, these photos and "documents" have problems: - Nobody is coming forward and identifying themselves. - In the top-left and top-right photos, if the camera exposed the sky for a neutral blue, the underside of the craft would be very under-exposed (almost black) like the middle photo and the underside of the leaves and power pole. - If the lab was as secure as the author claims it is, "TOP SECRET" or somesuch classification would be clearly stamped on every(!) page. - The final problem is with the look of the documents. While there are some nice touches (three-hole punch marks on the cover...remember those ubiquitous binders?) the documents have nice fonts and formatting, and look laser-printed. Now, in 1986, the number of systems available capable of producing such documents "in house" was fairly limited. You did have the LaserWriter, but it had just come out and the document doesn't look like it's using one of the original LW fonts. The other options were Scribe, TeX, Xerox, maybe InterLeaf...and not much else. Integrating a digital photo into a document was a royal pain back then, and scanners were still exotic equipment. I'm curious - does anybody recognize which system produced the documents? I'd be impressed if hoaxers went to the trouble of tracking down vintage equipment to produce them. Overall the story the web page tells is pretty entertaining. One wonders if this is a viral marketing campaign for a sci-fi movie next year. Cheers, jp From technobug at comcast.net Wed Jul 4 13:36:13 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 11:36:13 -0700 Subject: govliquidation policy? In-Reply-To: <200707041702.l64H1n7u072198@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707041702.l64H1n7u072198@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <63142158-FB98-4ABE-883E-6744A3E047AF@comcast.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:16:20 -0500, "Jay West" wrote: > One small item I want is in a lot with 700 pounds of stuff I > definitely > don't want (pipe fittings, valves, etc.). If I bid on the lot and > win, I'm > guessing I need to take it all though and pay to have the metal junk > shipped. Anyone delt with this before? Does govliquidation allow > you to say > "please throw the rest away" or do I need to approach the shipper? If > someone has done this before, I guess the shipper would charge a > disposal > fee to cart off the unwanted stuff? Suggestions? The local scrapper I deal with does a fair amount of business picking up the remainders of local auctions for folks that only want an item or two. You might check to see if there are any liquidators in the area and see if they will take what you don't want - this will save you the cost of hauling it to some scrap yard. > Thanks! > > Jay West > CRC From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 4 13:37:02 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 11:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Somewhat OT] Extra-terrestrials and 1980's printers In-Reply-To: <200707041813.l64ICxZt073286@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200707041813.l64ICxZt073286@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2007, J. Peterson wrote: > Here's an odd one for you: > > Coast To Coast AM (UFOs, Ghosts, ETs etc.) has been running a story > about strange spacecraft buzzing around (where else?) > California. Recently somebody claimed to have spent the 1980's > working at a secret lab in Palo Alto trying to "commercialize" the > extra-terrestrial technology: I'm still waiting for one of these documents talking about antigravity to contain a proof-of-concept schematic. Funny how they never show up. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 4 14:04:00 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:04:00 -0400 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <499477.58768.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <499477.58768.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200707041504.00370.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 04 July 2007 12:38, Chris M wrote: > oi if the person picking up that stuff doesn't want > the Otrona, I'll sure give it a good home. It would > have to be shipped though. > Memory sounds nice too, but whoever picks it up I'm > sure could make ample use of it. I responded to them directly expressing interest in the Osborne Exec (my first computer!) and the RAM, and maybe some of the other bits (cables, boards, etc.) There's no way I could deal with the whole thing either, but if somebody does snag that stuff I'd be interested in those bits. > --- steven stengel wrote: > > Hope this hasn't been posted yet. > > Do not respond to me - see email at bottom: > > > > 3 Apple II computers. 2 disk drives > > 2 green screen monitors w/RCA connectors > > Epson desktop computer > > Otrona portable computer > > Osborne Executive portable > > Radio Shack TRS-80 desktop > > Radio Shack TRS-80 portable > > 500 pieces 64k memory chips (20 tubes of 25 each) > > 1 box 8 inch disks w/software > > 5 Boxes original vintage software (apple, cpm and > > others) > > 3 Boxes of cables, boards and chassis > > 7 Boxes manuals and vintage magazines > > Misc. printer stands, ribbons, covers, computer > > stands > > 22 Boxes of 5 ? diskettes (approximately 1000) many > > with software > > 7 Boxes of 3 ? disks (approximately 1000) many > > with software > > Pay shipping or arrange for pick up near O?Hare > > airport ? Chicago > > About 120 cubic feet in all > > > > WILL NOT BREAK UP, WINNER TAKES ALL. > > > > Respond to 847-299-3264 ASAP > > > > Stan Sharman stan_sharman at hotmail.com > > Des Plaines, Illinois -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 4 14:14:46 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 13:14:46 -0600 Subject: [Somewhat OT] Extra-terrestrials and 1980's printers In-Reply-To: References: <200707041813.l64ICxZt073286@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <468BF1A6.90504@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > I'm still waiting for one of these documents talking about antigravity to > contain a proof-of-concept schematic. Funny how they never show up. I belive BIG FOOT has the only copy. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 14:19:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:19:47 -0500 Subject: Classiccmpers in WI? In-Reply-To: <200707040804.l6484mHq014330@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200707040804.l6484mHq014330@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: On 7/4/07, Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > Hi Ethan, I'm in Milwaukee. Happy to get together any time. I was just there last night for Wierd Al at Summerfest. I had rather figured I'd hear about someone from Milwaukee _after_ I just went there ;-) Out of curiosity, what are your areas of classic interest? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 14:20:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:20:25 -0500 Subject: Classiccmpers in WI? In-Reply-To: References: <200707040804.l6484mHq014330@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: On 7/4/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Hi Ethan, I'm in Milwaukee. Happy to get together any time. Oops... that was meant for offline. Sorry. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 14:36:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 15:36:26 -0400 Subject: Nice - SCSI to IDE converter (eBay Australia) In-Reply-To: <496199.3152.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <496199.3152.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <157B324F-BFDB-4E3A-8262-7A4F977B30A4@neurotica.com> On Jul 4, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/SCSI-to-IDE- > converter_W0QQitemZ170126238112QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZView > Item > > are these hard to come by (or make even!). Seems like > a darned handy thing to have around. Damn difficult to make...there's a lot of smarts involved. Acard makes a wide variety of these currently, and they work well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 14:36:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 12:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <09b801c7be63$1c371480$697ba8c0@epicis> Message-ID: <947968.15083.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Wood wrote: > I'd be very interested in the Osborne and the Epson. > > Douglas Wood But you don't even know what model Epson it is. QX-10, QX-16, Equity I, II, III... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 14:42:18 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:42:18 -0500 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <200707041504.00370.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <499477.58768.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200707041504.00370.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730707041242x44b8c5aew72aec2e90db425b9@mail.gmail.com> Has anyone received a reply from the person with this equipment? I wrote to him last night, about 30 minutes after the original post hit the list, but have not heard from him. I'm quite close to him, and willing to redistribute what gear I can't use (probably at least half of it.) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 14:42:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <200707041504.00370.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <82998.22486.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> > On Wednesday 04 July 2007 12:38, Chris M wrote: > > oi if the person picking up that stuff doesn't > want > > the Otrona, I'll sure give it a good home. It > would > > have to be shipped though. > > Memory sounds nice too, but whoever picks it up > I'm > > sure could make ample use of it. and besides shipping (obviously) I'd be willing to pay some moola for the Otrona. Not a fortune, but arguably what it might go for (on a bad day...for the seller LOL) on ePay. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From dbwood at kc.rr.com Wed Jul 4 14:45:01 2007 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:45:01 -0500 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago References: <947968.15083.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0a1601c7be73$cffdc620$697ba8c0@epicis> So? :^) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 2:36 PM Subject: Re: Boat-load Free in Chicago > > --- Douglas Wood wrote: > >> I'd be very interested in the Osborne and the Epson. >> >> Douglas Wood > > But you don't even know what model Epson it is. > QX-10, QX-16, Equity I, II, III... > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > that gives answers, not web links. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > > __________ NOD32 2378 (20070704) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 14:47:39 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:47:39 -0500 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707041242x44b8c5aew72aec2e90db425b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <499477.58768.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200707041504.00370.rtellason@verizon.net> <51ea77730707041242x44b8c5aew72aec2e90db425b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707041247l11e0ef0ci70a3f8eb06c80009@mail.gmail.com> OK - scratch that....I just called and his voicemail announces that all the gear is gone :( Anyone local get it? I was mainly interested in the TRS-80s. -j From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 14:53:36 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 12:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707041242x44b8c5aew72aec2e90db425b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <810068.35073.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> dude, the most direct means would be by phone. Just a suggestion. --- Jason T wrote: > Has anyone received a reply from the person with > this equipment? I > wrote to him last night, about 30 minutes after the > original post hit > the list, but have not heard from him. I'm quite > close to him, and > willing to redistribute what gear I can't use > (probably at least half > of it.) > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 4 15:21:52 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" Message-ID: <200707042021.l64KLq3c005554@floodgap.com> And not only that, it is most definitely on topic. http://www.studiofoglio.com/cgi/growf.cgi?date=20070520 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you're too open-minded, your brains will fall out. ---------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 4 16:01:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:01:19 -0600 Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: <200707042021.l64KLq3c005554@floodgap.com> References: <200707042021.l64KLq3c005554@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <468C0A9F.9080705@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > And not only that, it is most definitely on topic. > > http://www.studiofoglio.com/cgi/growf.cgi?date=20070520 I think the Dragon (the little orange-red one) has a better idea how to create a FRPG game than what I saw with that comic. I suspect only when you get real AI - like Hal 9000 from 2001 will you get a good computer FRPG. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 16:27:44 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <09b801c7be63$1c371480$697ba8c0@epicis> References: <931021.74198.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <09b801c7be63$1c371480$697ba8c0@epicis> Message-ID: <20070704142705.L49119@shell.lmi.net> What part of: > WILL NOT BREAK UP, WINNER TAKES ALL. do people not understand? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 16:47:51 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <20070704142705.L49119@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <779444.70802.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > What part of: > > WILL NOT BREAK UP, WINNER TAKES ALL. > do people not understand? the idea was that if someone reasonably close was willing to grab the stuff, and perchance didn't want some of the items (as said they was obligated to take it all), those that had interest in particular pieces might score. Nobody said it was written in stone (that they would get any of it), just that it wouldn't hurt to express their interest... Are there any chicky-poos on this list. I had to go back and change *he* to "they" for fear of offending the weaker sex. Wouldn't want to do that. Seriously there seems to be so few gals in this hobby (understandably). I did catch one skirt bidding on an Amiga (how fitting) 1000 on one of the auction sites a while back. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 16:49:30 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 16:49:30 -0500 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <20070704142705.L49119@shell.lmi.net> References: <931021.74198.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <09b801c7be63$1c371480$697ba8c0@epicis> <20070704142705.L49119@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730707041449j21b96a51kd6291335b3899603@mail.gmail.com> On 7/4/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > What part of: > > WILL NOT BREAK UP, WINNER TAKES ALL. > do people not understand? I think people, at least in my case, were asking for particular items in case whoever picks up the full load does not want them.. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 16:52:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: <200707042021.l64KLq3c005554@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <684647.72172.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > And not only that, it is most definitely on topic. well my reply is probably OT. Was curious what's the status (many/any active) of play-by-mail (e-mail) rpg's. My interest is in the sci-fi type domain. Anyone remember Space Opera, Aftermath,... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jul 4 17:03:52 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 23:03:52 +0100 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <20070704142705.L49119@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003201c7be87$366bb800$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Fred Cisin wrote: > What part of: >> WILL NOT BREAK UP, WINNER TAKES ALL. > do people not understand? I presume "NOT" and "ALL" :-) Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 16:49:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 22:49:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tandon TM 502 In-Reply-To: <20070704103239.1279.qmail@web27201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "Ade" at Jul 4, 7 11:32:39 am Message-ID: > I'm guessing it is: There's an external motor in one corner of the unit; I > can't read most of the label, but the "0.9 deg./st" that I can see would > suggest it's a stepper. It certainly sounds like it :-) > > > > > > > Where would I start in trying to diagnose & fix this drive? I have an > elderly > > > oscilloscope, but little else in the way of diagnostic tools (no logic > > > analyser, for example). Or am I better off considering it scrap & trying to > > > find a working replacement? Personally, I'd prefer to resurrect this one if > I > > > can. > > > I assume this is a normal ST506 interface. I'd start by looking at the > > signals there -- is the machine trying to select thr drive, does it send > > STEP pulses, and so on. At lest then you'll know which drvice (controller > > or deive) has the problem > > OK, that will give me something to work on, once I've figured out how to > re-assemble the thing whilst leaving the control board accessible.... Well, all you actually need to be accessible is the inteface cabling to the drive. So leving the drive accessible (and even using longer cables to link it hup) might be enough. > > I couldn't tell you if this was a normal ST506 i/f. The control board on the > drive has "TM600 uP 187345" printed on it; the Sirius' controller board has > only "XEBEC SYSTEMS INC." and "Assy 104526 rev-07" as identifying marks. Do the cables look like an ST506/ST412 interface? (34 pin control cable, 20 pin data cable). I am pretty sure an unmodified TM502 has that interface, Xebec were known for making ST412 controllers, so I am guessing it is. > Does any of that help at all? I've not looked for any schematics yet, I guess > that's the next thing to do. Somewhere (and it'll take some finding) I have my own hand-drawn diagrams of the floppy-drive version of the machine. No help on the hard disk controller, but at least I'd have the interface connector pinout. >From what I remmeebr (and I hope I'm remembering the Sirius and not some other IBM-incompatible), the data bus is multiplexed with the low half of the address bus on the interface connector -- in other words it's a buffered version fo what you get on the 8088's pins. The add-on card has to latch the address, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 16:41:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 22:41:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: EIA connectors In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini" at Jul 3, 7 10:33:50 pm Message-ID: > > All: > > I came across a video monitor for one of my machines that has an 8-pin > rectangular connector with locking tabs. I remember from my days as an > audio-video geek in high school that this is sometimes called an =B3EIA > connector=B2. I remember we used these cables to connect JVC and Sony VTR > equipment. If it's the connector I'm thining of (8 pins in a 4*2 array, with a larger gap between the rows at one end to give polarisation), then I remmeber it as an EIAJ connector. I've seen them used on reel-to-reel VTRs, for audio in/out, video in/out and 4 grounds. I've also seen them used for RGB + Sync. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 17:10:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 15:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <779444.70802.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <779444.70802.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070704150023.A49119@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2007, Chris M wrote: > the idea was that if someone reasonably close was > willing to grab the stuff, and perchance didn't want > some of the items (as said they was obligated to take > it all), those that had interest in particular pieces > might score. Nobody said it was written in stone (that > they would get any of it), just that it wouldn't hurt > to express their interest... OK that makes sense > Are there any chicky-poos on this list. I had to go > back and change *he* to "they" for fear of offending > the weaker sex. Wouldn't want to do that. Well, Allison is a woman, but I'd be scared to call her a "chicky-poo", since she definitely does NOT seem weaker. > Seriously > there seems to be so few gals in this hobby > (understandably). I did catch one skirt bidding on an > Amiga (how fitting) 1000 on one of the auction sites a > while back. A lot of it is because a significant part of the motivation for this hobby is memories of bygone days, and there were very few women involved with computers in those days. In my company, people chose their own job titles. When my VP (self inflicted title) hired a woman to work in our Comdex booths, she gave herself the job title of "bait" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 4 17:21:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:21:39 -0600 Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: <684647.72172.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <684647.72172.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <468C1D73.2000400@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> And not only that, it is most definitely on topic. > > well my reply is probably OT. Was curious what's the > status (many/any active) of play-by-mail (e-mail) > rpg's. My interest is in the sci-fi type domain. > Anyone remember Space Opera, Aftermath,... Don't ask me... All I have heard about was the ones where you send in your PUNCHED CARD. I don't think they are around any more. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 17:34:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:34:24 -0700 Subject: EIA connectors In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard A. Cini" at Jul 3, 7 10:33:50 pm, Message-ID: <468BBE00.19837.15045B92@cclist.sydex.com> I think I've got a (male) EIA plug in my hellbox if you need it. Just email me off-list to make sure that it's what you need. Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Jul 4 17:38:38 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 23:38:38 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <200707032235.l63MY8RI058850@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707032235.l63MY8RI058850@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1A48EA51-CDE0-47A5-AC68-96F8ADAB6F1C@microspot.co.uk> On 3 Jul, 2007, at 23:35, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: Jules Richardson >>> I probably have enough to make a very close approximation on a FPGA, >>> but there doesn't seem to be a survivng operators Exec for a 1900, >>> only George 3 stuff. >> >> Oh, from which I presume there are no surviving 1900s? > > There looks to be one at the Science Museum's Wroughton facility > (and a 1500) > - trouble is it's hard to judge from the asset listing how complete > it/they > are. And of course, even if they are complete, how many years of > effort it > would take to make operational. And of course, what software they > have even > assuming the hardware could be made to run. :-( I should of course said operational 1900s. Nice to know the hardware is around anyway. I never came across a 1500, though there is a description of one in the programming notices folder I got with my 1301. I understand they were ICL badged RCA machines and that RCA and ICL used the same 'standard' interface so presumably 1302, 1500 series, 1900 series and modified 1301s could all use the same peripherals, if they had suitable driving software of course. Back to the original post, does anyone know if there is a difference between the "operators Exec for a 1900" and the executive used by engineers and recorded on 7 track mag tape? Would this be of any use? Roger. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 17:48:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 15:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <20070704150023.A49119@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <12604.74602.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > > Are there any chicky-poos on this list. I had to > go > > back and change *he* to "they" for fear of > offending > > the weaker sex. Wouldn't want to do that. > > Well, Allison is a woman, but I'd be scared to call > her a "chicky-poo", > since she definitely does NOT seem weaker. Yep forgot about Allison. And I don't think we need to read too deeply into some of my controversial terminology. > A lot of it is because a significant part of the > motivation for this hobby > is memories of bygone days, and there were very few > women involved with > computers in those days. Define *involved*? There certainly have been plenty of chicky-poos working in graphic design and all (real dudes didn't use Macs, did they? LOL LOL LOL). Generally they aren't all that inclined to wax nostalgic over an old puter though. > In my company, people chose their own job titles. > When my VP (self > inflicted title) hired a woman to work in our Comdex > booths, she gave > herself the job title of "bait" Ahahaha. I like that. I like it loads. LOL LOL LOL Remember Kiki Stockhammer? Worked for Newtek first I think, then moved over to the Snappy folks (were they related in anyway?). I mean what's more *baiting* then a woman named Kiki? We all should think what could be done to get more chickys involved in this hobby though... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 17:57:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 15:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: <468C1D73.2000400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <466697.27105.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >> And not only that, it is most definitely on > topic. > > > > well my reply is probably OT. Was curious what's > the > > status (many/any active) of play-by-mail (e-mail) > > rpg's. My interest is in the sci-fi type domain. > > Anyone remember Space Opera, Aftermath,... > Don't ask me... All I have heard about was the ones > where you send in your > PUNCHED CARD. I don't think they are around any > more. I don't suppose you mean like a computer type punched card (?). I do recall their being a few (1?) play by mail rpg's back in the day. I know virtually nothing about them though. I never even could fathom the concept (got real time?). There was a yahoo group centered around a superhero type rpg IIRC. This was about a year ago. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 17:58:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 23:58:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sirius connectors Message-ID: For the benefit of the chap with Sirius hard disk problems, and indeed for anyone else who's got a Sirius, here are some connector pinouts on the mainboard Hope that's of some use (and I've not mistyped anything...) -tony ------------------------------------------------------------------- PSU input (J10 1 +12V (for video monitor) 2 +5V 3 +5V 4 Gnd 5 Gnd 6 keyway 7 +12V 8 -12V Monitor J13, DE9) 1 Video Output 6 Chassis ground 2 Ground 7 VSync 3 +12V supply 8 Ground 4 Ground 9 HSync 5 Brightness Control out Expansion Slot (J1 ... J4) AD0 --25 26-- AD1 AD2 --24 27-- AD3 AD4 ==23 28-- AD5 AD6 --22 29-- AD7 BusRdy --21 30-- IODis/ Phi2 --20 31-- Gnd MotIOEn --19 32-- -12V HLDA --18 33-- LatchDin Hold/ --17 34-- +12V IRQ3/ --16 35-- Gnd NMI/ --15 36-- +5V Wr/ --14 37-- +5V Rst --13 38-- CPUClk/ DT/R/ --12 39-- Gnd Rd/ --11 40-- MCLkA IO/M/ --10 41-- Ready ALE --9 42-- IRQ5 DEN/ --8 43-- IRQ4 SS0/ --7 44-- Gnd A8 --6 45-- A9 A10 --5 46-- A11 A12 --4 47-- A13 A14 --3 48-- A15 A16 --2 49-- A17 A18 --1 50-- A19 Floppy Disk controller (J7) D0 --1 2-- Gnd D1 --3 4-- Gnd D2 --5 6-- Gnd D3 --7 8-- Gnd D4 --9 10-- Gnd D5 --11 12-- Gnd D6 --13 14-- Gnd D7 --15 16-- Gnd CS1/ --17 18-- Gnd CS0/ --19 20-- Gnd IRQ3/ --21 22-- Gnd IRQ0 --23 24-- Gnd DskCLk --25 26-- Gnd CPUCLk /--27 28-- Gnd 29 30-- Gnd 31 32-- Gnd Wr/ --33 34-- Gnd CS2/ --35 36-- Gnd Phi2 --37 38-- Gnd Test/ --39 40-- Gnd A0 --41 42-- Gnd A1 --43 44-- Gnd A2 --45 46-- Gnd A3 --47 48-- Gnd Rst/ --49 50-- Gnd Note : CS0/ - Spindle Motor Control VIA CS1/ - Status VIA CS2/ - Data VIA User port (J5) -12V --1 2-- -12V 3 4 +12V --5 6-- +12V +5V --7 8-- +5V 9 10-- Light Pen Gnd --11 12-- CA1 Gnd --13 14-- CA2 Gnd --15 16-- PA0 Gnd --17 18-- PA1 Gnd --19 20-- PA2 Gmd --21 22-- PA3 Gnd --23 24-- PA4 Gnd --25 26-- PA5 Gnd --27 28-- PA6 Gnd --29 30-- PA7 Gnd --31 32-- PB0 Gnd --33 34-- PB1 Gnd --35 36-- PB2 Gnd --37 38-- PB3 Gnd --39 40-- PB4 Gnd --41 42-- PB5 Gnd --43 44-- PB6 Gnd --45 46-- PB7 Gnd --47 48-- CB1 Gnd --49 50-- CB2 Note : PB7 is also used as the clock for the sound system, otherwise this is an uncommitted 6522 VIA Audio In (J17) 1 +12V 2 Gnd 3 Gnd 4 N/C 5 Audio Input 6 +6V (Audio reference) Printer Port (Centronics _and_ GPIB, 36 pin Microribbon J14) DAV --1 19-- Gnd D0 --2 20-- Gnd D1 --3 21-- Gnd D2 --4 22-- Gnd D3 --5 23-- Gnd D4 --6 24-- Gnd D5 --7 25-- Gnd D6 --8 26-- Gnd D7 --9 27-- Gnd NRFD --10 28-- Gnd SRQ --11 29-- Gnd 12 30 NDAC --13 31 E27 --14 32-- NDAC EOI --15 33-- Gnd Gnd --16 34-- REN Chassis --17 35-- ATN 18 36-- IFC Keyboard 1 +5V 2 Gnd 3 Gnd 4 Keybd Ready 5 Keybd CLock 6 Keybd Data 7 +5V 8 Chassis RS232 Ports (DB25, J8 and J9) 1 Chassis 2 TxD 3 RxD 4 RTS 5 CTS 6 DSR 7 Gnd 8 DCD 15 Tx Clk In 17 Rx Clk In 20 DTR 22 RI 24 Clcok Out From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Jul 4 17:54:57 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 23:54:57 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <200707032235.l63MY8RI058850@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707032235.l63MY8RI058850@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 3 Jul, 2007, at 23:35, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > >> Seems reasonable. I remember one day the 1900 at QMC went down and we >> users were getting annoyed at the delay and we asked what was up, and >> were told the air conditioning system had failed and under the raised >> floor they had found nearly a foot of water. This was on the fifth >> floor! Thinking about it now it's not feasible. The false floor had >> ramps up from the normal floor at the computer room entrance, so the >> water would have flowed out under the ramp and down the stair well >> and >> lift shaft. Still, the story kept us quiet for a while. > > Our false floor is actually at normal floor level, so the subfloor > is of > course about a foot lower, and I have actually seen it flood. One > time > the aircon went wrong; it's a type that dries the air and then > re-humidifies it by passing it over a tray of warm water. The valve > controlling the level failed and so did the drain. Nice. Fortunately > we noticed before it rose high enough to hit the electrics. Well the QMC maths building was new enough to have been designed to have the computer, so yes maybe it was true. > We had a different incident on Saturday after we had shut down all the > power in the main machine room for safety testing. About lunchtime, > when the engineers had restored some of the power, we realised > there was > a smell of burning -- not really what you want in your central machine > room. After a few panicky minutes, we realised it was the aircon. > Normally it works hard to cool the room, but it's designed to > maintain a > certain temperature. With all the servers switched off, it was trying > for the first time in years to heat the place up, and of course the > heating coils were full of dust. I get the same thing every Autumn, both in my car and with the Dimplex night storage radiators. With the latter, they also give off fumes from the epoxy resin which are quite nasty. For the first few years, for the first day or two there is a layer of air up to 3 feet from the ground when I get up in the morning which I would not want to breath. The cat comes upstairs but the dog suffers it when I forget to expect it. Almost back to topic, air conditioning systems are supposed to filter out dust, so if there was dust in the heating coils, does this means it was not working properly? Roger Holmes. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 4 18:33:04 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:33:04 -0600 Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" - OT In-Reply-To: <466697.27105.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <466697.27105.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <468C2E30.7090900@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > I don't suppose you mean like a computer type punched > card (?). I do recall their being a few (1?) play by > mail rpg's back in the day. I know virtually nothing > about them though. I never even could fathom the > concept (got real time?). There was a yahoo group > centered around a superhero type rpg IIRC. This was > about a year ago. That was about 1982 or so I was thinking of. I did not play but you did send in your IBM cards in the mail if I remember right from the person that did play. RPG's are still best done by people with lots of time and DM's who know how to think quickly have reems of notes. PC Look for traps ... % 03 snap ... We run umm west Look for ... DM Roll Roll Roll % 100 ... Oh dam they found the back door out ... not the way in I planned. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jul 4 19:18:47 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 01:18:47 +0100 Subject: Tandon TM 502 References: Message-ID: <006401c7be9a$0e8114d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Well, all you actually need to be accessible is the inteface >cabling to the drive. So leving the drive accessible (and even >using longer cables to link it hup) might be enough. It's pushing 10 years since I got rid of my Sirii, but IIRC the hard drive and controller board are mounted in such a way that the cabling between them is inaccessible when they are mounted in the machine. The only way to work on the hard drive is to remove it from the metal assembly carrying the drives and prop it up somewhere close bye; in fact there should be no problem with removing the entire "drive carrier" and reconnecting the hard drive alone (I'm sure I did this with mine when I was tinkering with it). Unfortunately I also gave away all of the documentation I had when I got rid of the machines and I'm pretty sure that most if not all of it came from the long defunct FidoNet "Apricot Technical Support BBS" (and/or other Fido BBSs). Where you'd find it now though? It's just possible that I *may* have backups somewhere, but they're likely either on tape or somewhere on one of my many MFM/RLL drives so are pretty inaccessible. One day I must look through all that stuff. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jul 4 19:27:31 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 01:27:31 +0100 Subject: Nice - SCSI to IDE converter (eBay Australia) References: <496199.3152.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007d01c7be9b$46927480$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > That looks specific to a CD-ROM.... Actually, that what I was thinking. One of my Yamaha CD writers (I think the CRW-2200E) comes in EIDE and SCSI flavours, the SCSI one being merely the EIDE drive with and adapter according to the docs I have. I'm wondering if this is the adapter I need for mine, though I think the 2200E adapter adapts to 68-pin SCSI (this looks like 50)? TTFN - Pete. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 4 19:46:56 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 01:46:56 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: References: <200707032235.l63MY8RI058850@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <468C3F80.6030203@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/07/2007 23:54, Roger Holmes wrote: >> From: Pete Turnbull >> After a few panicky minutes, we realised it was the aircon. >> Normally it works hard to cool the room, but it's designed to maintain a >> certain temperature. With all the servers switched off, it was trying >> for the first time in years to heat the place up, and of course the >> heating coils were full of dust. > > Almost > back to topic, air conditioning systems are supposed to filter out dust, > so if there was dust in the heating coils, does this means it was not > working properly? I think the small ones, which are a few kW apiece, do, but the two big ones (about 60kW) in the machine room don't really filter the air much. They're really just meant to keep the temperature and humidity in reasonable bounds. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 20:07:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 18:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" - OT In-Reply-To: <468C2E30.7090900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <702805.82992.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > That was about 1982 or so I was thinking of. I did > not > play but you did send in your IBM cards in the mail > if > I remember right from the person that did play. > RPG's are still best done by people > with lots of time and DM's who know how to think > quickly > have reems of notes. > PC Look for traps ... % 03 snap ... We run umm west > Look for ... > DM Roll Roll Roll % 100 ... Oh dam they found the > back door out > ... not the way in I planned. The best GM's were certifiable nut-cakes. Not in a bad way :). The lack of lucidity did often make for very creative scenarios. I guess the knack though is to compel player-characters to do what you want them to do. It's really just like writing a novel. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 4 20:03:47 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 02:03:47 +0100 Subject: Free for postage: 13W3 cables Message-ID: <468C4373.1000509@dunnington.plus.com> Tidying out the workshop, I found a couple of SGI 13W3 video cables. One is a grey one for an Indy (4 mode sense pins in each plug) which looks almost unused, and the other is a longer beige one for an Indigo (3 mode sense pins in each plug). Also a black VGA cable probably for a KVM switch, about 2m long, one end male, one end female; brand new (but the poly bag looks a bit scruffy now). Anyone want these? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 4 20:51:15 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 18:51:15 -0700 Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: <468C1D73.2000400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <684647.72172.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <468C1D73.2000400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 4:21 PM -0600 7/4/07, woodelf wrote: >Chris M wrote: >>--- Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>And not only that, it is most definitely on topic. >> >> well my reply is probably OT. Was curious what's the >>status (many/any active) of play-by-mail (e-mail) >>rpg's. My interest is in the sci-fi type domain. >>Anyone remember Space Opera, Aftermath,... Both still have a small following. My current favorite is "Call of Cthulhu", I've been GMing a game now for about four years. More importantly BRP, the underlying rule set, is something that people with jobs, that rarely play, can remember. :^) >Don't ask me... All I have heard about was the ones where you send in your >PUNCHED CARD. I don't think they are around any more. These sound more like the old PBM strategy games rather than a RPG. I think you'd send in your move for the turn, as would everyone else, and then you'd get the results back. Something along the lines of "Master of Orion". The person I knew that was playing in one didn't have to fill out punch cards, but did have to fill out a form. I've no idea the state of such games, I suspect they're all dead. How many people are going to spend a few dollars per turn, with what was probably a couple week, at least, turn around. This would actually be an interesting area of study from both the gaming standpoint, and the classic computer standpoint. I'd love to see some of the software that was used to control these games, however, I'd guess that most were written by the person running the game, and most of the software has been lost. I do know that many gamers play online, either via email, or other solutions. As a Game Master, I prefer to have my group gathered around the table, I view the social aspects of gaming (getting together with friends and having fun) to be as important as the game. Unfortunately we're all old enough, and have enough responsibilities that we rarely are able to get together. I know a lot of GM's use computers now during their gaming session, and I've even seen a projector used, but I like to keep things as low tech as possible when gaming. The extent of computer usage in my campaign is that I use Adobe InDesign, Photoshop, and ClarisDraw for doing up stuff. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 22:04:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 20:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <443798.89729.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > These sound more like the old PBM strategy games > rather than a RPG. > I think you'd send in your move for the turn, as > would everyone else, > and then you'd get the results back. Something > along the lines of > "Master of Orion". The person I knew that was > playing in one didn't > have to fill out punch cards, but did have to fill > out a form. I've > no idea the state of such games, I suspect they're > all dead. How > many people are going to spend a few dollars per > turn, with what was > probably a couple week, at least, turn around. This > would actually > be an interesting area of study from both the gaming > standpoint, and > the classic computer standpoint. I'd love to see > some of the > software that was used to control these games, > however, I'd guess > that most were written by the person running the > game, and most of > the software has been lost. This, although largely unrelated, reminds me of a small game, the rulebook being a glorified pamphlet, called En Garde. The backdrop was say 17th century France, and although most of the rules had to do with swordplay - and you had to announce your move/s at the getgo (and the resultant combination determined the outcome), there were aspects of social climbing. Not a full fledged RPG, but a quaint little set of rules nevertheless. If you were heavy into the history, it's likely you could build onto it's framework. No, sorry no computers were involved, or needed ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 22:27:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:27:33 -0700 Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: <443798.89729.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <443798.89729.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <468C02B5.10594.5FFAD6@cclist.sydex.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > These sound more like the old PBM strategy games > rather than a RPG. Sigh. I'm so far out of that scene, that I had to Google "RPG". The only meaning to me up until 30 seconds ago was that of a programming language. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 4 23:13:33 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:13:33 -0600 Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" - ot In-Reply-To: References: <684647.72172.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <468C1D73.2000400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <468C6FED.3080702@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > As a Game Master, I prefer to have my group gathered around the table, I > view the social aspects of gaming (getting together with friends and > having fun) to be as important as the game. Unfortunately we're all old > enough, and have enough responsibilities that we rarely are able to get > together. I know a lot of GM's use computers now during their gaming > session, and I've even seen a projector used, but I like to keep things > as low tech as possible when gaming. The extent of computer usage in my > campaign is that I use Adobe InDesign, Photoshop, and ClarisDraw for > doing up stuff. As a Game player .. I have yet to have character rise to the next level, I tend to roll rather badly. The last gaming store around here came and went about a year ago and what I saw was mostly traditional style of gaming, very use little of computers too. How ever most of the games played tended to be space or vampire/demon campaigns. I wonder if this reflects what is seen on TV as what people want to play? > Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 4 18:02:44 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:02:44 -0400 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago Message-ID: <0JKO00G7TFXLQI21@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Boat-load Free in Chicago > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:10:46 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 4 Jul 2007, Chris M wrote: >> the idea was that if someone reasonably close was >> willing to grab the stuff, and perchance didn't want >> some of the items (as said they was obligated to take >> it all), those that had interest in particular pieces >> might score. Nobody said it was written in stone (that >> they would get any of it), just that it wouldn't hurt >> to express their interest... > >OK >that makes sense > > >> Are there any chicky-poos on this list. I had to go >> back and change *he* to "they" for fear of offending >> the weaker sex. Wouldn't want to do that. > >Well, Allison is a woman, but I'd be scared to call her a "chicky-poo", >since she definitely does NOT seem weaker. Thanks Fred, never fear. Though some may want to "check their six". ;) Two things. There are a few women maybe two or three on this list. However a few I know of are not on the list. The reason maybe references like "chicky-poos", "skirts"! Whoda thunk in 2007 someone would write that! One would hope that was said with a smile on that face to a friendly crowd. ;) Likely those women that are not on the list don't even know of it! There is also the the kids standard that the list thing may be a bit 90s with PHP and Blogs replacing that old thing. ;) > >> Seriously >> there seems to be so few gals in this hobby >> (understandably). I did catch one skirt bidding on an >> Amiga (how fitting) 1000 on one of the auction sites a >> while back. > >A lot of it is because a significant part of the motivation for this hobby >is memories of bygone days, and there were very few women involved with >computers in those days. Roger that. Many women were not technical level and were there to punch the cards or other "more womanly" tasks. It's one of the computing dark chapters. There were women in the forefront as well. It's part of the not so nice general history of women in the workforce. As to "Amiga (how fitting) 1000", I'm perplexed why a woman bidding on that would be fitting? I always though Amigas were cool and out ahead but I have no desire for one, guess it's our history of things we worked with that flavors what we collect or like to play with. I do have a collection of very sharp knives, humm, is that fitting? On a more serious note there are many women in archeology and old computers reflect society and it's tools. So noe sould spculate that the study of old computers, their users, companies and all the related bits are a form of sociology or archeology. So there is as good a possibility that personal "memories of bygone days" are not a factor but reconstructing or at least understanding some fraction of computings history or the technology is a sufficient reason for those people involved. >In my company, people chose their own job titles. When my VP (self >inflicted title) hired a woman to work in our Comdex booths, she gave >herself the job title of "bait" ;) Obviously has a finely tuned sense of humor. Also a great message to others. Allison > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jul 5 06:10:48 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 06:10:48 -0500 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <0JKO00G7TFXLQI21@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKO00G7TFXLQI21@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <468CD1B8.5030206@mdrconsult.com> Allison wrote: > Roger that. Many women were not technical level and were there to punch > the cards or other "more womanly" tasks. It's one of the computing dark > chapters. There were women in the forefront as well. It's part > of the not so nice general history of women in the workforce. ObOT: This is something I still see in the OS-level training that I do. I get maybe one woman[0] in 16 students. OTOH, the Java, MySQL, Websphere, and "Secretarial MS-Office" courses get a much heavier proportion of females. I have no theories at all about any of that. Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jul 5 01:55:15 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:55:15 +0100 Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <0JKO00G7TFXLQI21@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKO00G7TFXLQI21@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1183618515.9505.4.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 19:02 -0400, Allison wrote: > The reason maybe references like "chicky-poos", "skirts"! Whoda thunk > in 2007 someone would write that! One would hope that was said with > a smile on that face to a friendly crowd. ;) I don't know about anyone else, but when I read Chris M's emails, in my head they sound like Squeaky-Voiced Teen from The Simpsons ;-) Gordon. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 5 09:10:21 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:10:21 +0100 Subject: Free for postage: AUI drop cables Message-ID: <468CFBCD.5090608@dunnington.plus.com> I've found two more cables that might be useful to someone. First is a 2-metre AUI Ethernet drop cable, with right-angle 15-pin slide-latch connectors, second is about 6 metres and has straight slide-latch cxonnectors. Both are the beige "office" type. Free for collection in York (UK) or for cost of postage. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 5 09:14:59 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:14:59 +0100 Subject: Free: pair of Accuride slide rails Message-ID: <468CFCE3.50901@dunnington.plus.com> I have a spare pair of Accuride slide rails, complete, with all the fixings. I don't know what their load capacity is but they're nice ball-bearing slides that came off a large Fujitsu drive which has long since moved elsewhere, so it must be quite high. Because of the weight, I'd rather not post them (but PayPerDrop might be an option in the UK) but they're free to the first respondent. I also have a pair of what look like the cabinet parts of the rails for a DEC PDP-11/34 or similar. Only the parts that fir the 19" rack, though, not the parts that fit on the BA-11 box. These are going to the scrap metal collection at the weekend if no-one stops me. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jul 5 10:07:03 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 11:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <1183618515.9505.4.camel@elric> References: <0JKO00G7TFXLQI21@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <1183618515.9505.4.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200707051509.LAA22086@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The reason maybe references like "chicky-poos", "skirts"! [...] >> One would hope that was said with a smile on that face to a friendly >> crowd. ;) Well, I'd like to think this is a friendly crowd, but yeah, my reaction to those was that they were a straight line for an "and with language like that, you won't, either" punchline. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 5 10:50:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:50:11 -0600 Subject: Wanted: SGI Sirius Digital Video cables Message-ID: Hi all, I've got an Onyx2 and the Sirius Digital Video breakout box, but no cables to connect the two. Any tips/pointers on where I could get some (or order connectors and cabling suitable for building some) would be much appreciated! -- Richard -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From us21090 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 10:53:52 2007 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 08:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" Message-ID: <845884.69122.qm@web30812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Zane, A few months ago, I came across Flying Buffalo ( http://www.flyingbuffalo.com ), an old PBM company founded in 1970 that is still running. I contacted the owner who still had records of my account from 30 years ago! He says I have 95 cents left in my account, though I didn't ask if that was in 1976 dollars. Kinda pulling this back on-topic, when I played back in the late 1970's, every 2-weeks or so I would receive the new game status on yellow teletype paper! He says, ( http://www.flyingbuffalo.com/history.htm ) they first rented time on a CDC 3300, then later bought a Raytheon 704 minicomputer- over $30,000 total. "Sigh. And it only had 4K of memory!". From there they bought a Poly 88 computer kit, a North Star Horizon and then IBM clones. He also told of a letter from "The Avalon Hill Game Company saying they weren't going to print my ad for "computer moderated pbm" in the classified ads of "The General" (a wargaming magazine) until I sent them a letter of permission from whoever owned the computer that I was using(!)". He also ran into trouble with the zoning inspector: "if you wanted to have a home business, you couldn't have anything that a normal person wouldn't have in their home, and normal people didn't have a computer in their living room." Today he's still using older methods for game play (snail mail, email, fax) but says using the web for entering game play is the next step. Scott ----- Original Message ---- From: Zane H. Healy To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 9:51:15 PM Subject: Re: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" ... These sound more like the old PBM strategy games rather than a RPG. I think you'd send in your move for the turn, as would everyone else, and then you'd get the results back. ... I've no idea the state of such games, I suspect they're all dead. How many people are going to spend a few dollars per turn, with what was probably a couple week, at least, turn around. This would actually be an interesting area of study from both the gaming standpoint, and the classic computer standpoint. I'd love to see some of the software that was used to control these games, however, I'd guess that most were written by the person running the game, and most of the software has been lost. I do know that many gamers play online, either via email, or other solutions. ... Zane ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From Mark at Misty.com Thu Jul 5 11:01:51 2007 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:01:51 -0400 Subject: PDP/8E CPU Boards In-Reply-To: <624966d60706272053u267e7ddav78ef07d92ca340c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com> <200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1182895907.8859.11.camel@elric> <54ef01c7b8b5$2a91fb70$020a0a0a@cj2a> <46830A31.80605@hawkmountain.net> <588401c7b933$26012b70$020a0a0a@cj2a> <624966d60706272053u267e7ddav78ef07d92ca340c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070705160151.GA21791@lucky.misty.com> Hi, I am also interested in an M8300 and M8310 for my 8/E, if anyone has a spare working set they would be willing to sell or trade. My PDP-8/E *almost* works. Mark On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 10:53:49PM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have a few extra E and A boxes and most of the boards for them. > > Paul > > > On 6/27/07, Todd Paisley wrote: > > > >> > I am a proud new owner of a PDP-8/E. Well, more like the proud new > >owner of > >> > a PDP-8/E chassis with a few boards! I am looking for the M8300 and > >M8310 > >> > CPU boards and memory for it. Does anyone have any of these laying > >around? ... -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://mail-cleaner.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 5 11:43:19 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 09:43:19 -0700 Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: <845884.69122.qm@web30812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <845884.69122.qm@web30812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8:53 AM -0700 7/5/07, Scott Austin wrote: >Zane, > >A few months ago, I came across Flying Buffalo ( >http://www.flyingbuffalo.com ), an old PBM company founded in 1970 >that is still running. I contacted the owner who still had records >of my account from 30 years ago! He says I have 95 cents left in my >account, though I didn't ask if that was in 1976 dollars. > >Kinda pulling this back on-topic, when I played back in the late >1970's, every 2-weeks or so I would receive the new game status on >yellow teletype paper! > >He says, ( http://www.flyingbuffalo.com/history.htm ) they first >rented time on a CDC 3300, then later bought a Raytheon 704 >minicomputer- over $30,000 total. "Sigh. And it only had 4K of >memory!". From there they bought a Poly 88 computer kit, a North >Star Horizon and then IBM clones. Tends to give a new understanding to the cost per turn. I hadn't realized that Flying Buffalo started the PBM industry (I have some of their books in my archives), and I had no idea that either they or PBM games were still around. I never played as I couldn't get over the cost per turn. Interesting details on an obscure use of rented computer time! :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 12:34:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 10:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boat-load Free in Chicago In-Reply-To: <0JKO00G7TFXLQI21@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <189966.63839.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> > As to "Amiga (how fitting) 1000", I'm perplexed why > a woman bidding on > that would be fitting? I always though Amigas were > cool and out ahead > but I have no desire for one, guess it's our history > of things we worked > with that flavors what we collect or like to play > with. I do have a > collection of very sharp knives, humm, is that > fitting? The only point there was that Amiga was the feminine form of amigo IINM. I don't know Spanish. But Amigas rock nonetheless. And I'm a dude.. Depends what you like to do with the knives Allison... > >In my company, people chose their own job titles. > When my VP (self > >inflicted title) hired a woman to work in our > Comdex booths, she gave > >herself the job title of "bait" > > ;) Obviously has a finely tuned sense of humor. > Also a great message to > others. Would only (in 2007) people regarded such comments as mine as humor. Yes just who would write things like that? I think you'd have to go back to the 1940's to hear any of that said in earnest ;). Sheesh it's ok when a chicky-poo uses that kind humor though LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:26:20 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 20:26:20 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <200707051702.l65H1gEK095752@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707051702.l65H1gEK095752@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 5 Jul, 2007, at 18:02, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull > >>> After a few panicky minutes, we realised it was the aircon. >>> Normally it works hard to cool the room, but it's designed to >>> maintain a >>> certain temperature. With all the servers switched off, it was >>> trying >>> for the first time in years to heat the place up, and of course the >>> heating coils were full of dust. >> >> Almost >> back to topic, air conditioning systems are supposed to filter out >> dust, >> so if there was dust in the heating coils, does this means it was not >> working properly? > > I think the small ones, which are a few kW apiece, do, but the two big > ones (about 60kW) in the machine room don't really filter the air > much. > They're really just meant to keep the temperature and humidity in > reasonable bounds. Wouldn't have been up to spec back in the old days of reel to reel tape and exchangeable disk drives but I suppose that's all you need now. If it were legal, the equipment wouldn't mind people smoking there, or eating, though of course liquids don't mix too well with electronics. Especially gassy drinks which explode when you open them. Roger From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 13:56:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:56:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tandon TM 502 In-Reply-To: <006401c7be9a$0e8114d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jul 5, 7 01:18:47 am Message-ID: > It's pushing 10 years since I got rid of my Sirii, but IIRC the hard drive > and controller board are mounted in such a way that the cabling between them > is inaccessible when they are mounted in the machine. My memory of working on the Sirius is that it was made to be easy for board-swappers (you almost never had to remove screws, only loosen them, etc, and very difficult for real repairers (when the machine was assembled you could get to vritually nothing, cables weren't long enough to set it up in bits, and so on. Not quite as bad as the DEC Rainbow, but close. > > The only way to work on the hard drive is to remove it from the metal > assembly carrying the drives and prop it up somewhere close bye; in fact > there should be no problem with removing the entire "drive carrier" and > reconnecting the hard drive alone (I'm sure I did this with mine when I was > tinkering with it). If the hard disk is a standard ST412 interface (and I am darn sure it is, even though I've never seen one), I would guess you could use somewhat longer cabels to link it up for testing. Then at least you could have the drive itself alongside the machine so you could stick a probe on the trstpoints. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 14:46:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <232237.15733.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> > Interesting details on an obscure use of rented > computer time! :^) I'll say. I still can't fathom though how engrossing a game can be when decisions are spread out over so long a period of time... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 5 15:28:11 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:28:11 +0100 Subject: Tandon TM 502 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468D545B.5080205@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/07/2007 19:56, Tony Duell wrote: > My memory of working on the Sirius is that it was made to be easy for > board-swappers (you almost never had to remove screws, only loosen them, > etc, and very difficult for real repairers (when the machine was > assembled you could get to vritually nothing, cables weren't long enough > to set it up in bits, and so on. Not quite as bad as the DEC Rainbow, but > close. And it had a lot of very sharp edges. One our engineers (at CFM, now Granada) used to wear gloves to take them apart. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 5 16:47:05 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 17:47:05 -0400 Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG" In-Reply-To: <232237.15733.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200707052147.l65LlDwm072813@keith.ezwind.net> People have been playing chess by mail for as long as there has been mail. Before that chess moves were sent by horseback, good help was easier to find back then :) Most of the CPM and early DOS BBS's had a range of games that were based on one game step per day so everyone could log in sometime during the day and make their move.. At one point back in the early 90's we had 1500+ BBS's networked by modem exchangeing e-mail and games packets two dialups a night or more if you were a star and not a point. It was something to look forward to each day ..... In a stepped time game, everyone moves at once, the attacker has no clue what the defender has done untill both moves are recorded. Both sides get the same information new every morning and have all day to respond with their move. A supprise defense can be very humbeling to an agressor. The best part was they were people on the other end and not bots so you could curse them out and chat as the game progressed over the weeks and months. It was what we had to work with 25+ years ago, which is the only thing keeping it any where close to being on topic. Here in columbus 15+ years ago we had 12 386x16's running netware over thin net with a mixture of modems tossing mail and games packets every night from midnight to dawn some nights. There was computer night life before the internet. Bob On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:46:18 -0700 (PDT), Chris M wrote: >> Interesting details on an obscure use of rented >> computer time! :^) > I'll say. I still can't fathom though how engrossing >a game can be when decisions are spread out over so >long a period of time... > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate >in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. >http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jul 5 18:31:02 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:31:02 -0400 Subject: LISA - Roms from original machine, not LISA2? In-Reply-To: <468BD934.5090308@drexel.edu> References: <200707041704.l64H3FhG072240@dewey.classiccmp.org> <468BD934.5090308@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <468D7F36.9050503@arachelian.com> Me too. I'm also looking for Lisa Office System 1.x and any of the software for it. Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > In a somewhat related question, does anyone here have an original LISA > with the twiggy floppy drives? The MESS team is looking for a dump of > the LISA firmware ROMs of that version (the 'LISA 1'). > > Jonathan Gevaryahu > jzg22 at drexel.edu > From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jul 5 22:05:23 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:05:23 -0400 Subject: unibus geeking; udisk update Message-ID: <200707060305.l6635NIf006329@mwave.heeltoe.com> [keywords: unibus, pdp-11, disk controller emulation] If anyone has an interest in low level unibus, I scanned in some screen shots from my simple HP1650 and updated my udisk page. Nothing exotic, just basic register reads, npr & br5. http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/udisk/index.html I finally put the async cpld aside and started debugging the simple synchronous state machine. The sync version works much better and is (as you'd expect) much faster. I have some more debugging to do but basic register i/o and dma work well and the cpu can now easily keep up. I hope to prove out the prototype this summer and do a spin modulo work load. (last week all 3 of my 'real jobs' stalled simultaneously - woo hoo! this week i have a pcb board stuck in customs in boston, so my fun work is getting a time slot or two :-) -brad From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 00:03:46 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:03:46 -0500 Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor Message-ID: <51ea77730707052203y3478ab66mf4c3f62b8f60dd67@mail.gmail.com> I just collected a Victor machine which I believe to be the 9000 aka Sirius 1, although it does not have a model # anywhere I can find. The fans and drive powers up, but the display does not. It appears to get its power via the 9-pin signal cable. Can anyone confirm that this is the case and if this is a common issue, perhaps with an equally common fix? -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From trag at io.com Fri Jul 6 00:15:32 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:15:32 -0500 Subject: Nice - SCSI to IDE converter (eBay Australia) In-Reply-To: <200707050644.l656h4ea089618@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707050644.l656h4ea089618@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:02:19 -0700 (PDT) >From: Chris M >Subject: Nice - SCSI to IDE converter (eBay Australia) >http://cgi.ebay.com/SCSI-to-IDE-converter_W0QQitemZ170126238112QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >are these hard to come by (or make even!). Seems like >a darned handy thing to have around. They are fairly easy to get, but the list price on the ones with which I am familiar is in the neighborhood of $70. It kind of guts the economy of putting affordable IDE devices on your SCSI chain. Acard makes a variety of adapters, with the variation being different flavors of SCSI. The narrow ultra-SCSI adapter is the AEC-7220U. If you visit Acard's website you will find that their price on it is $69, but I think they ship from Taiwan or some such. It is better to find the US distributers and buy from them (if you're in the USA). IIRC the USA distributers are getlaptop.com and microlandusa.com. Newegg sells some Acard products, but I don't know if they carry the SCSI to IDE adapters. The Acard models have (?) extended LBA support or whatever it is called when disks larger than 137 GB are supported. It might be kind of funny to put a 500 GB IDE drive ($90 w/ free shipping at Frys.com; Seagate 5yr warranty) on some machine from the late 80's with an unenhanced SCSI port. How long would it take to write the whole disk at 3 MB/s? Jeff Walther From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jul 6 00:23:44 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 01:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nice - SCSI to IDE converter (eBay Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <200707050644.l656h4ea089618@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200707060528.BAA07450@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [SCSI to IDE converter] > They are fairly easy to get, but the list price on the ones with > which I am familiar is in the neighborhood of $70. It kind of guts > the economy of putting affordable IDE devices on your SCSI chain. I dunno. I can get a "400G" IDE drive (400 disk-maker G, actually 372G) for under CAD 220 TTC - or, at least, I did back in mid-March. I'd be surprised to find a SCSI disk of that size for under $500, and would expect more like $1000; I certainly would be totally astonished to find one for $300 ($220+$70). Is my idea of SCSI disk prices out of date? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Jul 6 02:50:30 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 08:50:30 +0100 Subject: Urgent action - rescue needed, Manchester England. Message-ID: <2f806cd70707060050v2b356e31m9a4234abb80ca7a0@mail.gmail.com> Hi all. anybody near Manchester want to take a risk? My ex-wife has posted on the local freecycle list a "pile of electronic gubbins". Unfortunately we're not speaking, and she's not going to let me within a mile of the place. But from the posting, a message passed by a friend, and reading between the lines, it looks like it's going to be everything I ended up leaving behind when I left, about 8 years ago (and which I'd subsequently been told had been disposed of). It therefore /may/ include: complete act sirius 1 and external hard disc apricot xen and external isa expansion chassis microfive 8088 based multi-user system amstrad pc512 in bits SUN 600Mb external scsi drive (was huge!) composite colour monitor plus the usual pc junk, but probably nothing under 10 years old! and it may incude none of those... she's insistant on an all-or-nothing pickup as she's moving, and knows nothing of whats there and cant describe it. However if anybody is nearby and fancies taking a chance on getting some classic kit, let me know and I'll pass on contact details. I don't know how much interest she'll get from the freecycle list direct so best be quick... Rob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 6 03:08:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:08:20 -0500 Subject: Urgent action - rescue needed, Manchester England. In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70707060050v2b356e31m9a4234abb80ca7a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd70707060050v2b356e31m9a4234abb80ca7a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <468DF874.7000608@yahoo.co.uk> Rob wrote: > I don't know how much interest she'll get from the freecycle list direct > so best be quick... There looks to be 11,000 members on the central Manchester list; that's a couple of thousand more than the Cambridge one that I'm on, and vintage stuff goes there *very* quickly (and judging by the people I've given stuff to, it's to good homes too) I wouldn't worry too much - I suspect it'll get saved by someone. From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Jul 6 03:34:07 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:34:07 +0100 Subject: Urgent action - rescue needed, Manchester England. In-Reply-To: <468DF874.7000608@yahoo.co.uk> References: <2f806cd70707060050v2b356e31m9a4234abb80ca7a0@mail.gmail.com> <468DF874.7000608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707060134r7c2e0dabhdcecd1d7fa367897@mail.gmail.com> On 06/07/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Rob wrote: > > I don't know how much interest she'll get from the freecycle list direct > > so best be quick... > > There looks to be 11,000 members on the central Manchester list; that's a > couple of thousand more than the Cambridge one that I'm on, and vintage stuff > goes there *very* quickly (and judging by the people I've given stuff to, it's > to good homes too) > > I wouldn't worry too much - I suspect it'll get saved by someone. > Indeed. and i'd normally not worry. However the problem in this case is it's not described at all, so unlikely to be spotted by collectors. merely as "Circuit board, disk drives, monitors, everything you could think of in that line." ... if picked up by someone looking for stuff to use with modern PCs they will be very disappointed and may just bin it all.. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jul 6 03:15:32 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:15:32 +0100 Subject: Urgent action - rescue needed, Manchester England. In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70707060050v2b356e31m9a4234abb80ca7a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd70707060050v2b356e31m9a4234abb80ca7a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1183709732.5850.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Fri, 2007-07-06 at 08:50 +0100, Rob wrote: > Hi all. > > anybody near Manchester want to take a risk? > > My ex-wife has posted on the local freecycle list a "pile of > electronic gubbins". Unfortunately we're not speaking, and she's not > going to let me within a mile of the place. But from the posting, a > message passed by a friend, and reading between the lines, it looks > like it's going to be everything I ended up leaving behind when I > left, about 8 years ago (and which I'd subsequently been told had been > disposed of). How big is it all? I might have a bit of space in the back of the car coming back from Lugradio Live in Wolverhampton. I won't have a lot of time though. Gordon. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 6 04:04:58 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:04:58 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <1A48EA51-CDE0-47A5-AC68-96F8ADAB6F1C@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: >>> Back to the original post, does anyone know if there is a difference between the "operators Exec for a 1900" and the executive used by engineers and recorded on 7 track mag tape? Would this be of any use? <<< Does that imply that you - or someone you know has such a tape??? anyhow, to answer the question - "it all depends" I've only limited knowledge of the Engineers test programs tho' I think I have some notes somewhere. So some of what follows may not be precisely correct. Most test programs were normally run under operators exec and were stored on a normal program library tape (these were tapes with a search program (#TAPE) at the start and the rest of the programs in any order following.) The engineers (raw machine) test tape would have started with a minimal exec-mode bootstrappable search program at the start (really only a program loader - not a full exec). This would have been followed by the exec-mode test programs which were presumably in a bootstrap format. Our engineers usually ran such basic test programs from paper tape - this may have been because that process relied on less of the system being operational that the process of finding and loading one from MT. Of course, as always!, the system faults that one remembers were not detected by the test programs ... (On the 1905E one time odd things happened with the Limit register - that took some locating; On the Honeywell dual-processor, one of the two processors started giving some wrong results in floating-point - and as it was (almost) SMP this had effectively random results that took some locating) Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.1/888 - Release Date: 06/07/2007 06:36 From g at kurico.com Fri Jul 6 08:00:38 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:00:38 -0500 Subject: HP150 and other stuff in Dallas/FW area Message-ID: <468E3CF6.2030000@kurico.com> From a Craigslist ad (I am not affiliated with the seller, all correspondence should go to the sellers email): http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/367449526.html Body of the ad: I have several old i486 systems, drives, monitors,Keyboards, mouse, modems, ethernet and other cards, vintage software, and guides for mac, apple, basic, etc... Also search user KRLMFL on Ebay for other vintage computers and books! Have 1984 HP 150 touchscreen stack computer system! Looking for anything specific? I have loads of stuff, all from '93 and beyond... Raybob13 at windstream.net From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 6 08:04:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:04:11 -0500 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> I've been thinking more and more this last week about designing a CPU to be built from TTL logic ICs, purely as an interesting exercise. I'm thinking of a microprogrammed design with a pretty minimal register count - but as speed is never going to be a defining aspect anyway using commodity TTL, I'm thinking of going for a bit-serial ALU to keep the parts count down. Keeping the raw components pretty basic is another desired goal - no custom off-the-shelf ALU chips, gate arrays etc. Questions: have any others on here done stuff like this, or have any pointers to good resources? I'm learning as I go along here, flicking through technical manuals for 8-bit CPUs etc. and gleaning what I can from the web. MAGIC-1 is about the most comprehensive online resource I've found so far, but I believe it's a pure parallel core, and plus it's *way* more feature-rich that what I'm aiming for. I'm not interested in running UNIX-a-like software, or giving it hard drive interfaces or network stacks - I just think it'd perhaps be fun to design and later build something from scratch to do basic computation. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 6 08:49:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:49:22 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson > > >I've been thinking more and more this last week about designing a CPU to be >built from TTL logic ICs, purely as an interesting exercise. > >I'm thinking of a microprogrammed design with a pretty minimal register >count - but as speed is never going to be a defining aspect anyway using >commodity TTL, I'm thinking of going for a bit-serial ALU to keep the parts >count down. Keeping the raw components pretty basic is another desired goal >- no custom off-the-shelf ALU chips, gate arrays etc. > ---snip--- Hi I've been thinking on a similar idea, only I'm not thinking of a traditional ALU. I've been looking at how to create a minimal computer. There is a web page that describes a processor with only one instruction. I have been thinking of how to make it even simpler. First, they us a subtract. I think that is overly complicated od an operation. It requires adders connected with carries. This is always a clock limiter when the add operation it covers is not needed for most code. I believe just a NAND operation and branch on zero is sufficient. Things like carry can be handled in tables. The address counter bothers me as well. An incrementer is also a pain. An LFSR generator is much simpler. It does require that on have the ful complement of RAM because of the randomish nature of incrementing. Still, the ciircuits would be much simpler to implement. Coding is a pain and a method to bootstrap the RAM with the tables would also be needed. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Jul 6 10:27:13 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 17:27:13 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <468E5F51.3020304@bluewin.ch> > Questions: have any others on here done stuff like this, or have any > pointers to good resources? I'm learning as I go along here, flicking > through technical manuals for 8-bit CPUs etc. and gleaning what I can > from the web. I made, in 1986, a 12 bit machine with raw TTL. Switches as input, 4 nixies as output, ca. 120 IC's. Parallel, with 3x181 as Alu, 3x194 as accu/shifter, and a dedicated hardware stack separate from the main 4Kx12 memory. Actually building and debugging it was the hardest part. Go for parallel, it is easier and will not be that more expensive in partcount. Let me know if you want my schematics Jos From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 6 11:24:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:24:54 -0600 Subject: CBM 8032 w/8050 dual floppy & Visicalc (Terre Haute, IN) Message-ID: Ebay # 320135111531 Opening bid is $0.99, local pickup only. It would be a good deal for someone who's close by -- the guy won't ship it due to weight. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Jul 6 11:28:03 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:28:03 -0400 Subject: Symmetric 375 Message-ID: <468E6D93.7050306@hawkmountain.net> I've aquired one of these... I found a great archive of information at: http://www.berklix.org/symmetric/ However the ftp link to the software archive is no good. There doesn't seem to be a way to contact this person other than by an international call. Anyone know Julian Stacey or have a copy of the Symmetric 375 software ? Haven't tried to boot the unit yet... it does have a hard drive. So... any other Symmetric 375 owners out there ? -- Curt From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 6 11:48:38 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little levity: "computerized FRPG", Flying Buffalo's Raytheon 704 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <89375.19361.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: At 8:53 AM -0700 7/5/07, Scott Austin wrote: >Zane, > >A few months ago, I came across Flying Buffalo ( >http://www.flyingbuffalo.com ), an old PBM company founded in 1970 >that is still running. I contacted the owner who still had records >of my account from 30 years ago! He says I have 95 cents left in my >account, though I didn't ask if that was in 1976 dollars. > >Kinda pulling this back on-topic, when I played back in the late >1970's, every 2-weeks or so I would receive the new game status on >yellow teletype paper! > >He says, ( http://www.flyingbuffalo.com/history.htm ) they first >rented time on a CDC 3300, then later bought a Raytheon 704 >minicomputer- over $30,000 total. "Sigh. And it only had 4K of >memory!". From there they bought a Poly 88 computer kit, a North >Star Horizon and then IBM clones. Tends to give a new understanding to the cost per turn. I hadn't realized that Flying Buffalo started the PBM industry (I have some of their books in my archives), and I had no idea that either they or PBM games were still around. I never played as I couldn't get over the cost per turn. Interesting details on an obscure use of rented computer time! :^) Zane I ended up with the Raytheon 704 that Flying Buffalo used many years ago. It's not in great shape, having been sitting outside for many years. One chassis I had to dig out of the ground. It should be possible to restore, but I'm still looking for schematics for it. Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 6 11:54:41 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:54:41 -0700 Subject: Symmetric 375 Message-ID: <468E73D1.6030503@bitsavers.org> Just checked, all of the files on ftp.berklix.com are gone Bernd Kopriva is on the list, hopefully he mirrored it. Dumping the boot proms would be a good thing. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 6 11:55:49 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:55:49 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:49:22 PDT." Message-ID: <200707061655.l66GtniG007728@mwave.heeltoe.com> "dwight elvey" wrote: ... >nature of incrementing. Still, the ciircuits would be much simpler >to implement. Coding is a pain and a method to bootstrap the >RAM with the tables would also be needed. I am reminded of the IBM 1620... :-) -brad From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 6 12:17:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:17:39 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707061655.l66GtniG007728@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: >, <200707061655.l66GtniG007728@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <468E16C3.13272.87E4AA8@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2007 at 12:55, Brad Parker wrote: > I am reminded of the IBM 1620... :-) I've sometimes wondered how much the Cadet saved with the addition and multiplication tables in memory. One still needed to implement an incrementer, decrementer and doubler to handle routine addressing. Could a 4-bit BCD adder have been that onerous? While old architectures are interesting, sometimes you have to wonder. I think a serial ALU might be interesting for a variable word-length machine. I'm not aware of any recent ones that have been built. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 13:29:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 11:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707052203y3478ab66mf4c3f62b8f60dd67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <249898.41252.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason T wrote: > I just collected a Victor machine which I believe to > be the 9000 aka > Sirius 1, although it does not have a model # > anywhere I can find. > The fans and drive powers up, but the display does > not. It appears to > get its power via the 9-pin signal cable. Can > anyone confirm that > this is the case and if this is a common issue, > perhaps with an > equally common fix? did you play with the brightness/contrast (if it has both - don't got a V9K nearby, only my Vicki), or if there is static on the crt's face when you power up? If there's no provision for an AC plug, then you have your answer as to where the power comes from. Didn't Tony Duell provide a pinout? You'll need to check if a DC voltage is coming off the proper pin (I'm guessing 24vdc, but I've seen others that are 12vdc). It could be the video circuitry - do you have any other 5151 type monitors lying around? You could jury rig an adapter, but you'd have to fiddle with the horizontal sync inside it, not a big deal, it ought to be labeled, but make a mark with a sharpy so you can return it to the proper setting. Composite mono monitors won't work (and I'm assuming the V9K ttl signals). My best guess is the monitor flaked out, or it's not getting power though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jul 6 13:39:56 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 11:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: trace wrinkles Message-ID: I haven't heard anyone discuss this yet: what causes traces on some old PCBs to wrinkle and not others? My guess is a combination of suboptimal glue and wide temperature swings. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 6 13:56:59 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:56:59 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468E5F51.3020304@bluewin.ch> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> <468E5F51.3020304@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <468E907B.9060402@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > >> Questions: have any others on here done stuff like this, or have any >> pointers to good resources? I'm learning as I go along here, flicking >> through technical manuals for 8-bit CPUs etc. and gleaning what I can >> from the web. > > > I made, in 1986, a 12 bit machine with raw TTL. > Switches as input, 4 nixies as output, ca. 120 IC's. > > Parallel, with 3x181 as Alu, 3x194 as accu/shifter, and a dedicated > hardware stack separate from the main 4Kx12 memory. > > Actually building and debugging it was the hardest part. > Go for parallel, it is easier and will not be that more expensive in > partcount. > > Let me know if you want my schematics He may not but I do! I can't resist nixie output. :) > Jos PS. To the original post: Since you found magic , there is a lot of other CPU's on the "Homebuilt CPUs WebRing" Also the latest design I working on uses about 26 LS parts for control and 4 512x8 proms. Using proms really simplifies your control logic. This is a 24 bit cpu on three cards - control logic on one, 2901 bit slice on two cards. The alu card is about 14 LS chips + 3 2901's per card. Since this is a *slow* machine I can use ripple carry and LS parts. From grant at stockly.com Fri Jul 6 14:05:29 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:05:29 -0800 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070706110419.05611e10@pop.1and1.com> At 05:04 AM 7/6/2007, you wrote: >I've been thinking more and more this last week about designing a CPU to >be built from TTL logic ICs, purely as an interesting exercise. > >I'm thinking of a microprogrammed design with a pretty minimal register >count - but as speed is never going to be a defining aspect anyway using >commodity TTL, I'm thinking of going for a bit-serial ALU to keep the >parts count down. Keeping the raw components pretty basic is another >desired goal - no custom off-the-shelf ALU chips, gate arrays etc. > >Questions: have any others on here done stuff like this, or have any >pointers to good resources? I'm learning as I go along here, flicking >through technical manuals for 8-bit CPUs etc. and gleaning what I can from >the web. > >MAGIC-1 is about the most comprehensive online resource I've found so far, >but I believe it's a pure parallel core, and plus it's *way* more >feature-rich that what I'm aiming for. I'm not interested in running >UNIX-a-like software, or giving it hard drive interfaces or network stacks >- I just think it'd perhaps be fun to design and later build something >from scratch to do basic computation. In the near future I will be supplying bare bones Kenbak parts, like a PCB. First I need to make back the initial investment and engineering costs. Just an idea... Grant From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 14:12:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 12:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468E5F51.3020304@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <677665.82749.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > I made, in 1986, a 12 bit machine with raw TTL. > Switches as input, 4 nixies as output, ca. 120 IC's. > > Parallel, with 3x181 as Alu, 3x194 as accu/shifter, > and a dedicated > hardware stack separate from the main 4Kx12 memory. > > Actually building and debugging it was the hardest > part. > Go for parallel, it is easier and will not be that > more expensive in > partcount. > > Let me know if you want my schematics I'll love to see them. In general, if you are building a rudimentary cpu, do particular part numbers prevail? Particular families of TTL? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Jul 6 14:22:25 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:22:25 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <200707061707.l66H6Dao010326@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707061707.l66H6Dao010326@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <263B4635-0AC1-4557-ABAD-037E4A8E0ED3@microspot.co.uk> On 6 Jul, 2007, at 18:07, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > From: "Andy Holt" > >>>> > Back to the original post, does anyone know if there is a difference > between the "operators Exec for a 1900" and the executive used by > engineers and recorded on 7 track mag tape? Would this be of any use? > <<< > > Does that imply that you - or someone you know has such a tape??? Whilst working on my 1301, I was chatting to a friend who was an ICT/ ICL field engineer and later manager into the Fujitsu years. I told him that all copies of 1900 executive have been lost and he said that he might have a copy tucked away but that, if he had it at all it was on 7 track tape and we don't have a deck to read it, but maybe someone somewhere has a way of reading a tape which has not been touched for many years. I will let you know if he finds it, but don't hold your breath, like me he has a lot of buildings and does not go in some of them for long periods. With the 1301 we have a copy of 'Initial Orders' on the drum, a numeric dump of a slightly different version from another machine and also (dyleine?) copies of the original manuscript. Its only two drum bands (so less than 800 instructions), but it is the nearest thing to an operating system that the 1301 had. The 1302 Exec has not survived, nor even details of all the extra instructions in the machine, we know everything about a few, sketchy details from sales literature for others and there are probably a few we know nothing about. A recent documentary series "The Trap, What Happened to Our Dreams of Freedom" had clips of old footage, and in one there was a chap with a book open at a page showing what I immediately recognised as a 1300 instruction summary, the only coloured page in the 1300 programming manual. On freeze framing it and comparing with the 1300/1301 version, I see the arrangement is quite a bit different, and I think it must be a 1302 manual, but of course the image resolution, even on the original 16mm film would probably not allow it to be read, and certainly not off the video now on YouTube. > > anyhow, to answer the question - "it all depends" > > I've only limited knowledge of the Engineers test programs tho' I > think I > have some notes somewhere. > So some of what follows may not be precisely correct. > > Most test programs were normally run under operators exec and were > stored on > a normal program library tape > (these were tapes with a search program (#TAPE) at the start and > the rest of > the programs in any order following.) > > The engineers (raw machine) test tape would have started with a > minimal > exec-mode bootstrappable search program at the > start (really only a program loader - not a full exec). This would > have been > followed by the exec-mode test programs which > were presumably in a bootstrap format. Our engineers usually ran > such basic > test programs from paper tape - this may have been > because that process relied on less of the system being operational > that the > process of finding and loading one from MT. Well, when and if he finds it, maybe what's written on the spool will give us a clue to if its any use or not. > > Of course, as always!, the system faults that one remembers were not > detected by the test programs ... > (On the 1905E one time odd things happened with the Limit register > - that > took some locating; > On the Honeywell dual-processor, one of the two processors started > giving > some wrong results in floating-point - > and as it was (almost) SMP this had effectively random results that > took > some locating) We've had some weird ones with Flossie too. We found a fault three weeks ago, all the read-modify-write instructions were randomly causing a subsequent instruction to fail, about once a minute. This is just long enough to get from the console to the oscilloscope, so you start a program and it seems like the machine is being a bitch and waiting for you to NEARLY get to find out what is wrong, but not quite letting you do it. At the heart of the machine is a shift register which is supposed to have exactly one '1' in it at all times. The duration of the instruction is controlled by how far along the register the '1' gets. With two of us working on the fault, I was probing various signals and eventually we traced the fault to the shift register when my friend shouted over that the fault had seemed to have disappeared. I found that the impedence/resistance of the scope probe on one of 25 pins on one of 4000 cards seemed to make the fault disappear (and reappear when removed). We think we were getting two '1's in the shift register, but anyway, we changed that PCB and all has been well since. Roger. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 14:37:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:37:16 -0500 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/6/07, David Griffith wrote: > > I haven't heard anyone discuss this yet: what causes traces on some old > PCBs to wrinkle and not others? My guess is a combination of suboptimal > glue and wide temperature swings. Wrinkles? Ones I've seen are, AFAIK, solder buildup between the copper trace and the solder mask, not between the copper trace and the underlying board. You have something different going on? -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 6 14:39:57 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:39:57 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468E907B.9060402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> <468E5F51.3020304@bluewin.ch> <468E907B.9060402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <468E9A8D.3030702@jetnet.ab.ca> > Questions: have any others on here done stuff like this, or have any > pointers to good resources? I'm learning as I go along here, flicking > through technical manuals for 8-bit CPUs etc. and gleaning what I can > from the web. If you want to venture in to the land "Down Under" read about the EDUC-8. http://www.ljw.me.uk/educ8/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jul 6 15:02:46 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/6/07, David Griffith wrote: > > > > I haven't heard anyone discuss this yet: what causes traces on some old > > PCBs to wrinkle and not others? My guess is a combination of suboptimal > > glue and wide temperature swings. > > Wrinkles? Ones I've seen are, AFAIK, solder buildup between the > copper trace and the solder mask, not between the copper trace and the > underlying board. You have something different going on? Yes, wrinkles. I see this most often with wider traces. Commodore 64s seem especially prone to this. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 6 15:10:19 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:10:19 -0400 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Griffith wrote: > I haven't heard anyone discuss this yet: what causes traces on some old > PCBs to wrinkle and not others? My guess is a combination of suboptimal > glue and wide temperature swings. I've never seen a trace "wrinkle". I have seen the (paint? varnish? lacquer?) whatever finish applied over the traces wrinkle. The culprit usually appears to be heat. I have encountered circuit boards where the traces will lift off of the board when desoldering/part removal is attempted. In some cases heat may have been an issue, in others, I could see nothing to blame other than substandard quality. Not surprisingly, boards without plated through holes seem to be more at risk. Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.0/887 - Release Date: 7/5/2007 1:55 PM From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 6 17:33:18 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 18:33:18 -0400 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:02:46 PDT." Message-ID: <200707062233.l66MXIA3021302@mwave.heeltoe.com> David Griffith wrote: > >Yes, wrinkles. I see this most often with wider traces. Commodore 64s >seem especially prone to this. can you supply a picture? I've never seen this occur after time has passed. Other problems can cause this during wave solder... but that's a different issue. -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 6 17:10:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 23:10:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707052203y3478ab66mf4c3f62b8f60dd67@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason T" at Jul 6, 7 00:03:46 am Message-ID: > > I just collected a Victor machine which I believe to be the 9000 aka > Sirius 1, although it does not have a model # anywhere I can find. It certainly sounds like a Sirius... > The fans and drive powers up, but the display does not. It appears to > get its power via the 9-pin signal cable. Can anyone confirm that Why do I bother? :-) I posted all the pinouts for this machine a couple of days ago, including the monitor connector. For refernce here's that one again... 1 : Video Output 2 : Ground 3 : +12V supply to monitor 4 : Ground 5 : Brightness cotnrol to monitor (the brightness and contrast are controlled by 3-bit 'DAC's driven from one of the 6522s) 6 : Chassis ground 7 : VSync 8 : Ground 9 : HSync A separate note in my diagrams says : 'VSync 75Hz, HSync 16.1KHz' Now, that 12V line comes from its own output in the PSU. It's regulated to 12V by the 7812 regulator A102 on the PSU PCB. It does however originate from the main chopper transformer, and since the other outputs seem to be present, the PSU must be running. Of course a blank screen can be caused by many other faults other than a loss of power to the monitor. I would start by disconencting the monitor and measuring the voltage on pin 3 of the monitor connector. If it's missing, check that regulator, and then trace back into the PSU circuitry (or ask me for more help). if it's there, then take the covers off the monitor. Plig the monitor into the machine and power up. See if the CRT heater is glowing. It runs off the 12V line via R901 (10 Ohm), which I don't think is likely to have failed. If the CRT heater is out, then either it has failed, or something in the monitor is crawign too much current and pulling the supply down. In my case there as a little interface PCB between the cable and the main PCB, the connections to the cable are : 1 (Whate) +12V 2 Kyeway 3 (Black) ground 4 (Red) HSYnc 5 (Blue) VSync 6 ( Inner of screened cable) Video 7 (Screen) ground. Check the 12V again with the monitor connected (e.g. at pin 1 of the cable connector inside the monitor). If it's low or missing, I'd suspect the horizotnal output transisotr (line output transistor over here), Q704. But if that's failed, something else might be the real cause. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 6 17:30:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 23:30:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor In-Reply-To: <249898.41252.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 6, 7 11:29:48 am Message-ID: > did you play with the brightness/contrast (if it has > both - don't got a V9K nearby, only my Vicki), or if Brightness and cotnrast are controlled by software (!), there are no user controls on the monitor. There are a couple of 3-bit resistor DACs controled by port B of the system VIA > there is static on the crt's face when you power up? > If there's no provision for an AC plug, then you have > your answer as to where the power comes from. Didn't Indeed. > Tony Duell provide a pinout? You'll need to check if a > DC voltage is coming off the proper pin (I'm guessing > 24vdc, but I've seen others that are 12vdc). It could It's 12V. It pweres the CRT heater (11.5V or so) from the 12V line through a 10 Ohm resistor. > be the video circuitry - do you have any other 5151 > type monitors lying around? You could jury rig an > adapter, but you'd have to fiddle with the horizontal > sync inside it, not a big deal, it ought to be It's actually the VSync that's very different from the MDA monitor (see my other post for the scan rates). > labeled, but make a mark with a sharpy so you can > return it to the proper setting. Composite mono > monitors won't work (and I'm assuming the V9K ttl > signals). The sync signals are TTL, the video isn't, it's analogue. A combination of the video signal, the intesify signal and the contrast DAC. > My best guess is the monitor flaked out, or it's not > getting power though. Indeed. I've got schematics in front of me, and have just noticed a fuse (F901) in series with the 12V supply inside the monitor. I didnt; spot it for the earleir message. If that's open, the monoitor won't work, of course, but if it has failed then almost certianly something has blown it. I just hope your flyback transformer is OK... -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jul 6 18:06:19 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 00:06:19 +0100 Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor References: <51ea77730707052203y3478ab66mf4c3f62b8f60dd67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002801c7c022$43bd50d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....The fans and drive powers up, but the display does not.... Are you sure the machine itself is working (does it sound like it's booting/try to access the floppy/hard drives)? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jul 6 18:14:30 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 00:14:30 +0100 Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor References: Message-ID: <003501c7c023$68317ad0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> there is static on the crt's face when you power up? >>If there's no provision for an AC plug, then you have >>your answer as to where the power comes from. Didn't > > Indeed. As an aside to this, the Sirius' monitor (like that of the later Apricots) has a thin sheet of fabric stretched across the front of it (secured by the front bezel) so there is no noticable static charge on the screen when it's powered up. Kinda puts paid to the quick and easy method of determining if it's getting power.... :-( TTFN - Pete. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 19:13:11 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 17:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor In-Reply-To: <003501c7c023$68317ad0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <764153.53485.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >> there is static on the crt's face when you > power up? > >>If there's no provision for an AC plug, then you > have > >>your answer as to where the power comes from. > Didn't > > > > Indeed. > > As an aside to this, the Sirius' monitor (like that > of the later Apricots) > has a thin sheet of fabric stretched across the > front of it (secured by the > front bezel) so there is no noticable static charge > on the screen when it's > powered up. This is true. I promptly razor-ed them off of the 2 monitors down at mom's. They were so dirty and skanky it didn't really bother me. But the Vicki, although also suffering from comparable case discoloration, is in pristine shape otherwise, and that would mean altering a prime specimen (considerably?) so I left it's glare guard screen stuff intact. Was there a "Serie" available in the UK? If I'm talking gibberish, the Vicki is the portable version of the Victor 9000. Very very hard to find. I so friggin lucked out when I found one on ePay for 10 bucks! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 19:22:45 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 17:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <956330.62090.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> > A separate note in my diagrams says : 'VSync 75Hz, > HSync 16.1KHz' How is this possible? This would mean 214.67 lines of resolution (including overscan?). Am I goofy or something? I had thought the V/S output 400 lines of resolution. Is it interlaced or sumthin? These monitors also seem to have a high persistence phosphor coating, but for that matter so did the 5151. Not that this has anything to do with the problem at hand... I do also have the technical manual I think, but not available at the moment... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 23:07:03 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 23:07:03 -0500 Subject: Offer: 6' Rack cabinet Message-ID: <51ea77730707062107y75287fex109b658852d99980@mail.gmail.com> A recent basement re-arrange has left me with no room for a rack cabinet I wasn't using that much anyway. I hate to get rid of it, because I'll want one again someday, but for now it's got to go. It's beige/brown color, unknown manufacturer. About 6' high with sides but no front or back doors. It does *not* have the standard front-mounting 19" screw rails except for a movable section of about 18" which bolts into side-facing rails. I think these adapters can be purchased online. What it does have is 9 sets (2 aluminum, the rest heavy steel) of "L" brackets that run the depth of the rack and mount anywhere on the inward-facing screw holes. The steel ones are very strong and could hold a rackmount server, 9-track drive or other heavy items. The rack is large but pretty light; I moved it down to the basement myself. It has no wheels but I've built a wheel-dolly for it. I'm asking $150 for it, or trade for something cool (and smaller!) I was going to put it on ebay as pickup-only, but thought I'd offer it here first. Obviously it would be for pick-up (Palatine, IL, NW of Chicago) only here as well. -j From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 06:56:36 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:56:36 +0100 Subject: Server hosting on a budget - use legacy kit Message-ID: <575131af0707070456t2392f509r76025ec55eb97abb@mail.gmail.com> http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/07/07/ebuyer_runs_site_on_commodore64/ I /like/ this. There's a site admin with a sense of humour there somewhere... -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Jul 7 08:57:37 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:57:37 -0400 Subject: 7 RK07 packs in UK Message-ID: <468F9BD1.3050805@hawkmountain.net> Saw these while searching eBay for other things and thought I'd pass this along in case anyone is looking for RK07 packs... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120133419517 I have no knowledge of the seller (or even RK07s :-) )... -- Curt From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jul 6 23:19:59 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 21:19:59 -0700 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> David Griffith wrote: > I haven't heard anyone discuss this yet: what causes traces on some old > PCBs to wrinkle and not others? My guess is a combination of suboptimal > glue and wide temperature swings. > > >From what I've seen, this is caused by the copper and the base material expanding and shrinking at different rates. It is seen quite a bit where temperature ranges between extremes, especially with cheap and older stuff. I'm told this is one big reason why PCB's were not accepted for military and space-grade stuff for quite some time before they managed to more closely match materials' thermal expansion coefficients. It happens to most every PCB subject to temperature cycling. This is also why it's so easy sometimes to lift a trace when soldering. I think this is mentioned in some writeup about the factors to consider when purchasing PCB stock. -- jd Pascal, n.: A programming language named after a man who would turn over in his grave if he knew about it. From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jul 6 23:23:14 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 21:23:14 -0700 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: <200707062233.l66MXIA3021302@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200707062233.l66MXIA3021302@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <468F1532.8020108@garlic.com> Brad Parker wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> Yes, wrinkles. I see this most often with wider traces. Commodore 64s >> seem especially prone to this. > > can you supply a picture? > > I've never seen this occur after time has passed. > > Other problems can cause this during wave solder... but that's a different > issue. > > Repeated wave and reflow solder will do it, too, even if the board does not actually touch the solder. Rapid, extreme thermal cycling. -- jd If you live to the age of a hundred you have it made because very few people die past the age of a hundred. -- George Burns From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 10:19:52 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 11:19:52 -0400 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> References: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> Message-ID: > >From what I've seen, this is caused by the copper and the base material > expanding and shrinking at different rates. It is seen quite a bit where > temperature ranges between extremes, especially with cheap and older stuff. No. The differences in expansion just are not that big. If you do the math, you will see that the dimensional changes of the the two disimilar substances just are not that big - way too small to cause all sorts of wrinkles. At worst case, maybe *a* wrinkle would show up on a long trace. The expansion was a problem with early surface mount chip designs, however. Here the dimensional tolerances were/are tiny, so the little swings could cause breaks in the connections. This is why there is a B in BGA - the little balls raise the package above the board and act as little moment arms to flex during temperature shifts. > I'm told this is one big reason why PCB's were not accepted for military and > space-grade stuff for quite some time before they managed to more closely match > materials' thermal expansion coefficients. No. It is almost all due to bureaucratic inertia. The military is funny this way - sometimes a new technology will be scooped up as soon as served, yet others they drag their feet with. And of course, in the 1950s and 60 all the contractors were making a mint, charging the government for all that hand wired work. They were not about to change to a cost saving new idea. -- Will From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jul 7 12:43:37 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:43:37 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 - hey, they wrote a book! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468FD0C9.1090901@netscape.net> All, I cannot believe that after two weeks and about 40 messages, no one actually responded to Theresa's actual message. Instead, from the first "reply" you all were off arguing inane stuff like whether English measure units are better than something else. You idiots! If you doubt that the TRS-80 Model 1 was, as Theresa claimed in her original message, the "first off-the-shelf home computer", then I respectfully suggest that you READ THE BOOK! I'm about three quarters thru reading (my signed copy of) David and Theresa's book. It covers a part of computer history that has gone almost totally unreported for all these years. "Priming the Pump" is both a history and a memoir, in that it is written by people who were directly involved in many of the events about which they are writing. I'll write a full review for next month's DACS.DOC. The book is written in a "light style" similar, I suspect, to the original TRS-80 programming manual written by David Lien. (If you don't think that's correct, don't reply here until you have read the book.) The book is absolutely packed with information including the 6-page index. The bibliography references many of the books I've read and consider to be good resources (ie: the authors did original research). The bottom line is that this is a book well worth buying, reading, and then keeping on your shelf as a reference. Also, please do not question the Welsh's credentials as vintage enthusiasts - there is a picture in the book of their daughter taken at VCF in 2000, and they came to VCF East this year (where I bought my copy of their book). Jim theresa at explainamation.com wrote: > The True Story of Microcomputer Pioneers > 2007 is the 30th Anniversary of the TRS-80! > > > Only $19.95 > > 348 pages, with full Index > > 121 illustrations > Priming the Pump: How TRS-80 Microcomputer Enthusiasts Helped Spark the > PC Revolution takes you back to the largely unknown origins of personal > computing. > > We wrote this book from personal experience, since we were part of the > community of small software entrepreneurs from those days. > > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer > > We tell the story of how Steve Leininger, working alone in an old > saddle factory in Fort Worth, built the first TRS-80; its total development > costs were less than $150,000. He had to make a product that could be sold > for a price Radio Shack customers could afford. Yet no one had ever sold a > complete off-the-shelf mass market personal computer before. > > The TRS-80 took the microcomputer from an expensive device built by > electronic hobbyists to something anyone could buy and operate. Introduced > in August 1977, the TRS-80 Model I from Tandy Corporation was sold in Radio > Shack's 3500 stores across the nation for the modest price of $599.95. It > all began in the late 1970s when a computer hobbyist at Tandy Corporation, > Don French, suggested to his bosses that they should build and sell a > computer. The Tandy managers were dubious that anyone would buy it, but they > paid a visit to Silicon Valley and finally hired a young engineer, Steve > Leininger, to come to Ford Worth and build a computer. Leininger siezed an > opportunity to do hands-on work with the new microchips that hobbyists were > using to build their own computers. The result of his efforts was the > revolutionary TRS-80 Model I, a product so successful that Tandy Corporation > found itself overwhelmed with orders it was not ready to fill. > > But as eager customers finally got their hands on their very own > computer, for the first time, they could experiment with software. Now > anyone could affordably use word processing, spreadsheets, accounting, > database and other kinds of software... as soon as someone wrote programs to > perform those functions and made them available. And enterprising > individuals working in basements and garages did create those programs. By > the early 1980s, as the first wave of software entrepreneurs sold their > wares through the bulging pages of 80 Micro magazine, customers had a big > choice of software. > > The Real Story, From the People Who Lived It > > In our case, I (David Welsh) was one of those self-taught programmers. > My word processor, Lazy Writer, was sold worldwide to enthusiastic fans who > were eager to dump their typewriters. My wife, Theresa, created our product > literature, dealt with dealers and customers and managed our office. These > were extraordinary years, when software was new and everyone was learning. > It was before Microsoft was a household word, and when software generally > had only one author. Programmers were proud of fitting useful features into > limited memory, and some became stars. > > Incredible Stories, All True! > > a.. John Roach, Tandy's product manager, got an agreement from > Charles Tandy to build 3500 units after Leininger demonstrated the > prototype; this was exactly the number of stores they had -- Roach figured > if no one bought the computers, at least the stores could use them. Don > French, a true believer, predicted they'd sell 50,000 the first year and > urged the company to gear up the factory for mass production. Tandy > managers, thinking they could never sell that many, were surprised when, in > the weeks after the introduction, the Tandy switchboard was paralyzed with > over 15,000 calls from people wanting to order a TRS-80. In the first year, > over 250,000 people went on waiting lists to buy a TRS-80! > b.. Tandy contracted with Randy Cook to create a Disk Operating > System (TRSDOS) for its next generation TRS-80, which would come with floppy > disk drives. The company agreed Cook would retain ownership of the code. But > Cook, believing Tandy violated the agreement, created a rival DOS which he > sold through his own company. Clueless Tandy managers found Cooks' name > embedded in the TRSDOS code. > c.. TRSDOS replacements appeared - five of them - and programmers > made up their own homespun magazine ads touting their products great > features and attacking their rivals' products in the pages of magazines like > 80 Micro, the most popular of many publications devoted to the TRS-80. > d.. Wayne Green, publisher of popular computer magazines, promised > to "editorially break" Radio Shack because they would not carry his 80 Micro > magazine in their stores; his vitriolic column often lambasted Radio Shack > CEO John Roach. > e.. Bill Schroeder, a successful businessman, bankrolled Logical > Systems, Inc. and sold Tandy on LDOS as the company-sponsored TRSDOS > replacement. A state-of-the-art headquarters and a pile of money followed > the lucrative contract, but once he sensed the coming demise of the TRS-80, > Schroeder simply shut down his company, a move he came to regret. > f.. Scott Adams created popular Adventure games for the TRS-80 and > other early microcomputers, became a celebrity in the magazines, but went > broke when he produced too many game cartridges for a computer that died in > the marketplace. > g.. Along with microcomputers, robots were also hot. Meet the robots > of the 1980s - and the man who said we were all going to have mechanical men > in our homes by the year 2000. Unlike the PC revolution, the robot > revolution fizzled. > h.. A notorious scam artist preyed on the gullibility of > microcomputer enthusiasts, destroying the Southern California Computer > Society with a Ponzi scheme, then bilking TRS-80 owners out of thousands of > dollars with magazine ads from a bogus company called World Power Systems > showing phony products. > Get the real story, based on interviews with microcomputer pioneers > like Steve Leininger, Don French, Randy Cook, Mark Lautenschlauger, Bill > Schroeder, Ed Juge and others. They tell their story for the first time, > captured by the authors, who lived through it all. > > Visit www.microcomputerpioneers.com to read excerpts and order your > copy. > > NOTES: You can get the book from us or from amazon.com. > We thank all the people who emailed us about the book. We really > appreciate your interest and your comments. Please forward this note to > anyone who might be interested in Priming the PUmp. > > From marvin at west.net Sat Jul 7 13:45:16 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 11:45:16 -0700 Subject: trace wrinkles Message-ID: <468FDF3C.6E4676A@west.net> "Wrinkles" is a rather vague description :). When using soldermask and wave soldering the board, the soldermask itself will wrinkle and I would guess all of us who have worked on boards have seen that one. Since a large board can pick up a fair amount of solder during wave soldering (depending on geometry), this adds useless cost to the assembly of PCBs. That problem was eliminated by going to soldermask over bare copper. The second cause of "wrinkles" (and this is probably what you are referring to) is due to the cooling characteristics of the solder after reflow, and this is usually far more prominent on larger circuit areas. I would not classify these as wrinkles per se, but rather the visual boundries where the solder started to solidify on different parts of the circuit. > From: David Griffith > > I haven't heard anyone discuss this yet: what causes traces on some old > PCBs to wrinkle and not others? My guess is a combination of suboptimal > glue and wide temperature swings. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jul 7 14:15:30 2007 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:15:30 -0700 Subject: Available for Postage: DEC Boot ROMs Message-ID: <200707071215300292.CDD07B39@192.168.42.129> CCTech folk, I have available, for the cost of postage, a pair of DEC boot ROMs used with the M9312. They are the 23-755A9 and 758A9 devices. Additional notations I got with them indicate that they were used with Spectra Logic controllers. The 755 is, apparently, for booting DPn or DBn disks, while the 758 is for booting MTn devices. First respondent gets 'em. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jul 7 14:36:49 2007 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:36:49 -0700 Subject: DEC Boot ROMs claimed Message-ID: <200707071236490751.CDE40135@192.168.42.129> The boot ROMs have been claimed. My thanks to James Markevitch, and to the list members. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From hamren at sdu.se Sat Jul 7 14:38:15 2007 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:38:15 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707071701.l67H0mOo025880@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707071701.l67H0mOo025880@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <18063.60327.85541.641766@localhost.localdomain> The first computer built by Computer Automation, circa 1967, was the PDC 808. It was an 8-bit TTL-only machine with a very basic instruction set. In "Computer Technician's Handbook" Brice Ward describes tat machine in great detail. Should be enough to build a replica from. A scanned version of the relevant parts of that book is available from http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/books_in_the_collection.html PDC stands for Programmable Digital Controller. The word "computer" was avoided because people were afraid of them! The "8" means 8 uS cycle time, and "08" means 8 bits. The 208 was three times as fast (2.66 uS cycle time, hence the "2"). /Lars ------------------------------------------------------------------- Lars Hamr?n Tel...: +46( 46)189090 Svensk Datorutveckling Mobile: +46(705)189090 Vadm?llan 211 e-mail: hamren at sdu.se S-225 94 Lund WWW...: www.sdu.se Sweden From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jul 7 15:13:37 2007 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:13:37 -0700 Subject: Multiple Servers & spares in WA (Kent), FREE to non-profit org! Message-ID: <200707071313370603.CE05B1C8@192.168.42.129> Classiccmp folk, Time to "flow through" more of my older gear! I have available three Compaq Proliant series servers of various models and speeds, none slower than 400MHz. These were all retired from my network, so I know they're functional. They've simply been replaced by upgraded systems. They all still have RAM (none less than 512MB), and I also have some spare power supplies. I may even be able to scare up enough four-gig disks to make an array. THE KICKERS... LOCAL PICKUP ONLY -- SHIPPING IS NOT AVAILABLE! I simply do not have the facilities or time to ship equipment of this nature. Pickup location is in Kent, Washington, southeast of Seattle. You may reach me at (253) 639-2996. I will donate all three servers, plus spares, FREE to any 501(c)(3) non-profit, or similar organization that can give me a tax-deduction receipt. Failing that, I think $50 per unit is a fair price. Again, I must emphasize -- LOCAL PICKUP ONLY! Shipping is NOT available for this equipment. No, I will not "part them out." These are usable systems, and I want to keep them that way. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 7 11:17:40 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 16:17:40 +0000 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070707201641.KEPB25465.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > applied over the traces wrinkle. The culprit usually appears to be heat. I > have encountered > circuit boards where the traces will lift off of the board when > desoldering/part removal is > attempted. In some cases heat may have been an issue, in others, I could > Bill RCA and cheap stuff are notorious for this but RCA did pretty good with wrinkling isssues but I had to watch the soldering temperatures ( I set temp appox just above solder melt point like 300F-400F to prevent trace debonding. I see this also big time on Tandy TRS-xx stuff. Cheers, Wizard From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 7 15:16:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:16:48 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <18063.60327.85541.641766@localhost.localdomain> References: <200707071701.l67H0mOo025880@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18063.60327.85541.641766@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <468F9240.2702.E48A8B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jul 2007 at 21:38, Lars Hamren wrote: > The first computer built by Computer Automation, circa 1967, was the > PDC 808. It was an 8-bit TTL-only machine with a very basic > instruction set. In "Computer Technician's Handbook" Brice Ward > describes tat machine in great detail. Should be enough to build a > replica from. Wasn't there an article in one of the magazines (Byte, Microcomputing, Kilobaud???) where a fellow gave details about constructing his own TTL 8080 CPU? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 7 15:41:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:41:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor In-Reply-To: <956330.62090.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 6, 7 05:22:45 pm Message-ID: > > > A separate note in my diagrams says : 'VSync 75Hz, > > HSync 16.1KHz' > > How is this possible? This would mean 214.67 lines of > resolution (including overscan?). Am I goofy or I wouldn't take those frequencies to be _exact_. It's quite possible it's 214.5 lines or something. > something? I had thought the V/S output 400 lines of > resolution. Is it interlaced or sumthin? These I think it has to be interlaced. That would then be about right for a 400-line interlaced image. The video timing is contorlled by a 6845, which is quite capable of interlaced scanning, of course. If it wasn;t interlaced, to get the same vertical resolution, either the vertical frequency would haev to be halved (which I don't believe for an instant -- did _any_ machine have a vertical sync frequency less than 50Hz?) or the horizontal would haev to be doubled. From waht I remember of the hoprixontal output stage, I think that's unlikely too. -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 7 17:44:13 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:44:13 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468F9240.2702.E48A8B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707071701.l67H0mOo025880@dewey.classiccmp.org> <18063.60327.85541.641766@localhost.localdomain> <468F9240.2702.E48A8B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070707224413.77530BA449A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 7 Jul 2007 at 21:38, Lars Hamren wrote: > > > The first computer built by Computer Automation, circa 1967, was the > > PDC 808. It was an 8-bit TTL-only machine with a very basic > > instruction set. In "Computer Technician's Handbook" Brice Ward > > describes tat machine in great detail. Should be enough to build a > > replica from. > > Wasn't there an article in one of the magazines (Byte, > Microcomputing, Kilobaud???) where a fellow gave details about > constructing his own TTL 8080 CPU? I remember a homebrew TTL CPU that used 7489's (16x4 SRAM. Not 16Kx4, or 16Mx4, just 16x4!) in a dense array for main memory. Something about baby-bottle liners filled with chilled water to keep them cool... Would've been mid-70's or earlier. By the mid-70's 2102's were available and nobody would've been using 7489's. Don't remember which magazine! Tim. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 7 17:55:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 16:55:25 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468F9240.2702.E48A8B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707071701.l67H0mOo025880@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18063.60327.85541.641766@localhost.localdomain> <468F9240.2702.E48A8B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <469019DD.4000503@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wasn't there an article in one of the magazines (Byte, > Microcomputing, Kilobaud???) where a fellow gave details about > constructing his own TTL 8080 CPU? I don't remember that. I do know there was a 32 bit cpu done in BYTE. There was a toy computer with 4? instructions I think with 0 (reset?) input from swr. > Cheers, > Chuck From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 7 13:58:57 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:58:57 +0000 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <20070707224413.77530BA449A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <468F9240.2702.E48A8B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070707225757.CJPM1673.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > Microcomputing, Kilobaud???) where a fellow gave details about > > constructing his own TTL 8080 CPU? > > I remember a homebrew TTL CPU that used 7489's (16x4 SRAM. Not 16Kx4, > or 16Mx4, just 16x4!) in a dense array for main memory. Something > about baby-bottle liners filled with chilled water to keep them cool... > > Would've been mid-70's or earlier. By the mid-70's 2102's were available > and nobody would've been using 7489's. > > Don't remember which magazine! > > Tim. 7489 you now talking! What the reason they needed cooling? I used that in high school to store the data to compare against for the 16 x 4 multiple choices via optical sensors. In theory should work this way. Even then the circuits was rather NOISY and miss-triggered on everything even the sensors was fighting each other! :) Hehehe. Cheers, Wizard From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 7 18:05:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 16:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 - hey, they wrote a book! In-Reply-To: <468FD0C9.1090901@netscape.net> References: <468FD0C9.1090901@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20070707145323.X97084@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 scheefj at netscape.net wrote: How do you spell shill? Lighten up on the hard sell. > All, > I cannot believe that after two weeks and about 40 messages, no one > actually responded to Theresa's actual message. Instead, from the first > "reply" you all were off arguing inane stuff like whether English > measure units are better than something else. You idiots! > If you doubt that the TRS-80 Model 1 was, as Theresa claimed in her > original message, the "first off-the-shelf home computer", then I > respectfully suggest that you READ THE BOOK! I was going to buy a copy of that book to add to the circulation collection. Your flame resulted in deleting it from the acquisition list. We were there. The responses were NOT about "English measure units". They were extensive (and sometimes silly) disagreements about how "first", "Off-the-shelf", and "home computer" were defined. It takes some very creative definitions to be able to assign that honor to TRS80. Theresa's definitions were barely defensible! Some of us, (Allison, etc.) were responsible for major design decisions. Some of us remember more detail than was found by the authors of "interview" books. Such as the time when RS said that they would be marketing an S100 adapter. Or the bad connections with the serial board. Or the multiple iterations of patches on top of kludges trying to get the CPU to E.I. cabling to work reliably. Or (mostly Coco) when RS declared that because "RS232" stood for "Radio Shack 232", that it was thus open to changes at the whim of RS. Some of us are tired of "history" with a "light style" (no technical details and/or no attempt to proof technical aspects) Some of us are tired of undefined and ill-defined disputable "firsts". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 7 18:18:00 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 19:18:00 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469019DD.4000503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707071701.l67H0mOo025880@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18063.60327.85541.641766@localhost.localdomain> <468F9240.2702.E48A8B8@cclist.sydex.com> <469019DD.4000503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jul 7, 2007, at 6:55 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Wasn't there an article in one of the magazines (Byte, >> Microcomputing, Kilobaud???) where a fellow gave details about >> constructing his own TTL 8080 CPU? > > I don't remember that. I do know there was a 32 bit cpu done > in BYTE. There was a toy computer with 4? instructions > I think with 0 (reset?) input from swr. Ahh, back in the days in which BYTE was a technical magazine. Do you have any recollection of when that article was printed? I'd love to find it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 7 20:58:10 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 19:58:10 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707071701.l67H0mOo025880@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18063.60327.85541.641766@localhost.localdomain> <468F9240.2702.E48A8B8@cclist.sydex.com> <469019DD.4000503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469044B2.2050702@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ahh, back in the days in which BYTE was a technical magazine. Do you > have any recollection of when that article was printed? I'd love to > find it. So would I. I suspect 90% of BYTE magizines from local ( ie small) libraries have been tossed out. It has been tossed out here. I am not sure if the 32 bit machine even made it microfilm copies of byte. But I do know it was some time after BYTE became a PC mag. It was in two parts - part 1 software? part 2 hardware. From jzg22 at drexel.edu Sat Jul 7 22:22:58 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:22:58 -0400 Subject: Victor 9000/Sirius 1 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <200707071705.l67H4qbU025936@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707071705.l67H4qbU025936@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46905892.4080102@drexel.edu> I have a Victor 9000 I'm restoring here, and I have a few questions: 1. Where do the two plugs for the 5 1/4 drive heads connect? This system has the Universal bios, a 10MB winchester HDD with DOS 3.1x and the later 1.44MB GCR/MFM floppy installed, but I can only seem to get one of the drive heads working (using catweasel on PC to dump a 'formatted' disk afterwards results in clear data spikes on one side and the other side blank, and format.exe won't format disks properly unless given the /1 1-sides flag) 2. The victor 9000 does NOT say anything when I turn it on. I know the Sirius 1 did, but I'm not sure the Victor does. Is this normal, or does the system need the HC-55564 delta modulation chip replaced? 3. Does anyone have a schematic or service manual for the victor 9000/sirius 1 anywhere? I also discovered that both of the victor keyboards I have need re-foaming between the contact discs and key plungers, which is gonna be a whole bunch of fun to do. They also both need new snap-tabs on them as both of the tabs have the tooth broken off (though they work fine other than having to hit keys really hard and the cord occasionally falling out of the computer) Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu P.S. Does anyone have dumps of the older BIOSes for the system? The universal one is the 'last' one of at least three I know existed. More than one version of the universal one may exist. The one I have is labeled 'V9000 UNIV. FE F3F7 13DB' and 'V9000 UNIV. FF F3F7 39FE' with respective crc32s of 25C7A59F and 496C7467 for each ROM. The sum16s match the last part of the labels, i.e. 13DB and 39FE. P.P.S. does anyone have documentation for the winchester disk controller it used? I'm trying to make a raw binary dump of the hard drive, preserving partition tables, information, etc. and the only way I can see of doing it is to use BASICA to poke and peek at the proper memory addresses to make the disk do its thing. From grant at stockly.com Sun Jul 8 04:29:45 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 01:29:45 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> Well, another labor of "love" for the past 6 months is finally done. Please take a look at http://www.altair680kit.com/index.html I'd love to hear any questions/feedback on the subject. Thanks, Grant From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jul 8 06:40:56 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 07:40:56 -0400 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jul 2007 21:19:59 PDT." <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> Message-ID: <200707081140.l68BeuwM015018@mwave.heeltoe.com> jd wrote: > >It happens to most every PCB subject to temperature cycling. This is also why >it's so easy sometimes to lift a trace when soldering. really? I have not seen this. maybe I need to look closer. I have customer boards temp cycled all the time to limit infant mortality and I dont' see any affect on traces. I do see parts die, however. Cheap crystals especially, even when cycled gently (slow ramp) and well within the stated specs. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jul 8 06:52:59 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 07:52:59 -0400 Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 08 Jul 2007 01:29:45 -0800." <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200707081153.l68Br0tF017929@mwave.heeltoe.com> Grant Stockly wrote: >Well, another labor of "love" for the past 6 months is finally done. > >Please take a look at http://www.altair680kit.com/index.html wow. that is beautiful. very nice work! -brad From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 8 10:56:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 08:56:15 -0700 Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4690A6AF.4302.12807AB1@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2007 at 1:29, Grant Stockly wrote: > Well, another labor of "love" for the past 6 months is finally done. > > Please take a look at http://www.altair680kit.com/index.html > > I'd love to hear any questions/feedback on the subject. Looks very nice, Grant! I have to admit to only having seen magazine photos of the MITS 680--I never knew anyone who actually owned one. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 7 17:16:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:16:49 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <0JKT009OKXTML9Y4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > From: Lars Hamren > Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 21:38:15 +0200 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >The first computer built by Computer Automation, circa 1967, was the >PDC 808. It was an 8-bit TTL-only machine with a very basic >instruction set. In "Computer Technician's Handbook" Brice Ward >describes tat machine in great detail. Should be enough to build a >replica from. > >A scanned version of the relevant parts of that book is available from > > http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/books_in_the_collection.html > >PDC stands for Programmable Digital Controller. The word "computer" >was avoided because people were afraid of them! > >The "8" means 8 uS cycle time, and "08" means 8 bits. The 208 was >three times as fast (2.66 uS cycle time, hence the "2"). > >/Lars I've seen a lot of discussion on making a CPU from TTL or MSI (bitslice). The task is not that bad and the parts to do it are very available still. The assembly task with out a premade board can be large as it's a lot of repetive circuits. If the word size is kept reasonable but useful and that seems to be 8 to 16 bits people are doing it. The variable word length 8bit designs are scarce but requires less bus "width" to get a workable system and have performance in the zone of faster than serial but not as fast as wide word machines. Using that approach you can have a 32bit machine with 8bit busses saving a huge amount of repetetive hardware. For those that want small and less significant part counts there are minimalist 8/12/16 designs like TOY or Pilgrim VSC (very simple computers). A board for one of them would have wide appeal and useful for those that wish to see the guts of cpu without probling a die or having a whole PDP-8. The biggest difference between building a PDP-8 (or whatever) then and now is not using TTL (or cmos) or bit slices but the availability of fast and large RAM that is easy to use. Many earlier systems were flavored by the ram they could interface or the needs of the memory. Same for the older serial designs to were done to economize on then costly registers and arithmetic logic along with serial memories. There is a lot of "you can do" but building a CPU comes down to what do you want to do and can reasonably achieve or can practically play with once functional. Unfortunately some want a cpu that can run unix and an IP stack others want just enough to qualify as a computer for close up examination of "just how do they do it?" and that represents a large spread of design and architecture possibilities. Having built machine from very simple state logic to an elaborate 16bit bitslice I can say all are interesting but some are a lot too much work. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 7 17:26:36 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:26:36 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <0JKT00LFAY9XPP5E@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:16:48 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 7 Jul 2007 at 21:38, Lars Hamren wrote: > >> The first computer built by Computer Automation, circa 1967, was the >> PDC 808. It was an 8-bit TTL-only machine with a very basic >> instruction set. In "Computer Technician's Handbook" Brice Ward >> describes tat machine in great detail. Should be enough to build a >> replica from. > >Wasn't there an article in one of the magazines (Byte, >Microcomputing, Kilobaud???) where a fellow gave details about >constructing his own TTL 8080 CPU? Check Mick and Brick on Bit slice design and implmentation of an 8080 in bitslice. Actually 8080 is easier if you are not trying to create a peice of hardware that results in a 40pin plug to replace an 8080. By that I mean something that would run 8080 programs but not electrically compatable and may be slightly different timing. There was also a 16bit CPU in Byte, plus there were articles on TOY (minimalst machine) and further articles on microprogrammed vs hard wired logic. The 16 bitter was EGO in the September 1985 issue (part 1, Part2 is October '85). So there is another fairly simple machine of very buildable proportions with a better than most instruction set. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 7 21:54:16 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 22:54:16 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <0JKU003JXANYUGH6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > From: woodelf > Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 19:58:10 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Ahh, back in the days in which BYTE was a technical magazine. Do you >> have any recollection of when that article was printed? I'd love to >> find it. > >So would I. I suspect 90% of BYTE magizines from local ( ie small) >libraries have been tossed out. It has been tossed out here. >I am not sure if the 32 bit machine >even made it microfilm copies of byte. But I do know it was some time >after BYTE became a PC mag. It was in two parts - part 1 software? >part 2 hardware. > September and October 1985, it was 16bit. EGO 1 wa s it's name. I ahve both copies and a few others regarding TOY a 16bit minimal computer for teaching. I believe issues of byte made it to microfilm and possibly even to compendiums on CDrom. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 7 19:05:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:05:04 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 - hey, they wrote a book! Message-ID: <0JKU004PG2U0WRPF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: The late, great TRS-80 - hey, they wrote a book! > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 16:05:20 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 scheefj at netscape.net wrote: > >How do you spell shill? > >Lighten up on the hard sell. > >> All, >> I cannot believe that after two weeks and about 40 messages, no one >> actually responded to Theresa's actual message. Instead, from the first >> "reply" you all were off arguing inane stuff like whether English >> measure units are better than something else. You idiots! >> If you doubt that the TRS-80 Model 1 was, as Theresa claimed in her >> original message, the "first off-the-shelf home computer", then I >> respectfully suggest that you READ THE BOOK! > >I was going to buy a copy of that book to add to the circulation >collection. Your flame resulted in deleting it from the acquisition list. > > >We were there. > >The responses were NOT about "English measure units". They were extensive >(and sometimes silly) disagreements about how "first", "Off-the-shelf", >and "home computer" were defined. It takes some very creative definitions >to be able to assign that honor to TRS80. >Theresa's definitions were barely defensible! > >Some of us, (Allison, etc.) were responsible for major design decisions. > >Some of us remember more detail than was found by the authors of >"interview" books. Such as the time when RS said that they would be >marketing an S100 adapter. Or the bad connections with the serial board. >Or the multiple iterations of patches on top of kludges trying to get the >CPU to E.I. cabling to work reliably. Or (mostly Coco) when RS declared >that because "RS232" stood for "Radio Shack 232", that it was thus open to >changes at the whim of RS. > >Some of us are tired of "history" with a "light style" (no technical >details and/or no attempt to proof technical aspects) > >Some of us are tired of undefined and ill-defined disputable "firsts". > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Right on Fred. Besides the first off the shelf is more like the CDC160 or PDP-8. For that fact AppleII was even before the TRS80. There were several fully assembled machines that predate the TRS80 some were even more capable. Frist what? First home computer for under $1000? First sold through a major chain? The late 60s through yesterday have been full of first in some area or another when we talk about computers. As for me when I'd first seen the title I hit delete as the TRS80 was an interesing and common oddity. It succeeded (that is it sold many) despite design flaws, outright bugs, and production teething pains. If anything I'd conclude little about the TRS80 and more about how hungry the market was for a computing solution that could be applied as an appliance or tool rather than technotoy. The real story if one is to be less technical is how the market progressed from PDP-8 to the Mark8 and beyond MITS to the more finished machines that could do basic accounting, write and print a letter or play a decent game. Computing and the machine makers tried to answer the buring question of what does the computer consumer want or need to be a useful tool they would buy? >From that perspective what MITS, APPLE or RS (and many others) did on their own has less significance than the combined effect of getting computers from behind plate glass and in front fo the guy that ways to know how many things to stock for the next big sale weekend. KO was right, people didn't want computers, they wanted infomation appliances. All the so called firsts were only steps to that end. The end remarkably is the same as when the Gutenberg Bible was first printed, rapid ready access to information, with information being THE commodity. Just my two cents, but hey what do I know. Allison From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jul 8 11:10:35 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:10:35 -0400 Subject: Northstar hard sector floppy disks with Catweasel Message-ID: <004601c7c17a$84e04690$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, Has anyone had success reading Northstar hard sector floppy disks with the Catweasel? Thanks! Andrew Lynch From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jul 8 12:59:47 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:59:47 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46912613.9080208@e-bbes.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I've been thinking more and more this last week about designing a CPU to > be built from TTL logic ICs, purely as an interesting exercise. Try to find somebody with a copy of the 1974 "elector" magazine (uk). They had a series of articles about a "computer74" which was designed in '74, and made of 74' series chips. Was a 16 bit thing. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 8 13:46:09 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:46:09 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469044B2.2050702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707071701.l67H0mOo025880@dewey.classiccmp.org> <469044B2.2050702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200707081446.09881.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 07 July 2007 21:58, woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ahh, back in the days in which BYTE was a technical magazine. Do you > > have any recollection of when that article was printed? I'd love to > > find it. > > So would I. I suspect 90% of BYTE magizines from local ( ie small) > libraries have been tossed out. It has been tossed out here. > I am not sure if the 32 bit machine > even made it microfilm copies of byte. But I do know it was some time > after BYTE became a PC mag. It was in two parts - part 1 software? > part 2 hardware. That one sounds vaguely familliar... I can recall a couple of different articles on boards that were designed to plug into a PC, one used a 32032, one a 68K of some sort, and one a Z8000, I think. I didn't pay them that much attention because I didn't have a "PC" yet, at that point in time. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jul 8 15:01:11 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jul 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > Well, another labor of "love" for the past 6 months is finally done. > > Please take a look at http://www.altair680kit.com/index.html > > I'd love to hear any questions/feedback on the subject. Oooooo.... I haven't seen or heard much of this machine, but it looks very nice. It seems to me that MITS designed the innards of this one with more forethought than they did the 8800. One problem, the "www" part does not resolve for me. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 8 15:10:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:10:22 -0700 Subject: Diablo Hyterm near Eugene, OR Message-ID: <4690E23E.13785.13691E7C@cclist.sydex.com> http://eugene.craigslist.org/zip/368914556.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 8 15:12:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:12:15 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <0JKT009OKXTML9Y4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKT009OKXTML9Y4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4691451F.7030907@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > > There is a lot of "you can do" but building a CPU comes down to what do > you want to do and can reasonably achieve or can practically play with > once functional. Unfortunately some want a cpu that can run unix and an > IP stack others want just enough to qualify as a computer for close up > examination of "just how do they do it?" and that represents a large > spread of design and architecture possibilities. Having built machine > from very simple state logic to an elaborate 16bit bitslice I can say > all are interesting but some are a lot too much work. Memory is a interesting problem , if you don't use 8 bit bytes or you need more than 32K. Since I had use of computers after 1980 64Kb or more seems normal. I am shocked at how hard it is get any memory size at all using static memory with the 75 to 80's chips and still not use up mammonth amounts of power or large # or boards. > Allison From molists at yahoo.com Sun Jul 8 15:30:32 2007 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: <4683B81A.2603.E48960@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <181347.40563.qm@web43138.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Doesn anyone still have the do-it-yourself modem from Popular > Electronics, called the "Pennywhistle"? > > --Chuck I have one, fortunately assembled by someone else, along with the slightly faded "originate modem manual". There is another party on this group that has one, but I don't know if he wants to fess up. So to answer the first question, yes, some of us do collect modems - its just a more subdued kind of fascination with blinkenlights. I also have one of those (Anderson-Jacobsen?) teak box modems, which still works, though the foam padding is disintegrating, and there isn't much to call at 110bps... The modem I miss, and misplaced, was the Vadic 355, what we in junior high considered the "cadillac" of direct-connect modems, in a day when acoustic couplers were the norm. Mo ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 8 12:49:48 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:49:48 -0400 Subject: Northstar hard sector floppy disks with Catweasel Message-ID: <0JKV008V7G4AH8W2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Northstar hard sector floppy disks with Catweasel > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 12:10:35 -0400 > To: > >Hi, > >Has anyone had success reading Northstar hard sector floppy disks with the >Catweasel? I keep hearing about this Catweasel board and I've never read of anyone successfully using one. My be if it works there may be nothing to tell. NS* floppies are a simple affair. The logic needed to read them is trivial and the data rate is 15625(SD) or 31250(DD) bytes/second. The NS* board logic is clock recovery, shift register and a 8wide NAND to detect if the pattern in register is a sync byte. The basic read is, wait for sector hole (hard sector has both an index hole and a data sector hole and a oneshot is used to tell which is which. Once the desired sector hole is found wait for sync (FBh). When sync is found read bytes as they are data(256 sd or 512 dd) the next byte is a check char if the check matches data in ram check byte you have a sector. There are no bytes for sector address or other info as hard sectoring us used to track that. In 8080 code ignoring the head step and all the other housekeeping the read sector code is less than 50 bytes. You can find that code on the net (NS* BOOT ROM). Because of it's simplicity I'm surprized no one has implemented a PC parallel port interface that is a subset of the NS* MDS sans boot roms and bus interface as the data rates are not out of the realm of what a 386 class or faster PC can transfer from a printer port. Manual and prints for the S100 card are available on line and the manual has low level programming information as well. There are no mysteries either hardware or software and the design is dirt simple. Actual parts count for the MDS=A (SD version ) is 47 peices TTL and if you take out boot proms (2 256x4 74287) and board select prom (1 256x4 74287) and the parts needed to talk to the S100 bus your under 40pieces of TTL the most complex of which is 74161 (4 bit counter). I'd add the SD version does not have any analog (opamps) or RC oneshots though the DD version does. the basic timing of the board is a long string of counters synced to the index hole to provide sector position (R/W) and byte timing for (W) and motor time out. No state machines or anything fancy. Allison > > > >Thanks! > >Andrew Lynch From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 8 15:44:22 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:44:22 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <0JKV00L7CO77PTPH@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:12:15 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> >> >> There is a lot of "you can do" but building a CPU comes down to what do >> you want to do and can reasonably achieve or can practically play with >> once functional. Unfortunately some want a cpu that can run unix and an >> IP stack others want just enough to qualify as a computer for close up >> examination of "just how do they do it?" and that represents a large >> spread of design and architecture possibilities. Having built machine >> from very simple state logic to an elaborate 16bit bitslice I can say >> all are interesting but some are a lot too much work. > >Memory is a interesting problem , if you don't use 8 bit bytes >or you need more than 32K. Since I had use of computers after >1980 64Kb or more seems normal. I am shocked >at how hard it is get any memory size at all using static >memory with the 75 to 80's chips and still not use >up mammonth amounts of power or large # or boards. Why the surprize? Until the 4k dynamic parts 1k was huge and the older dynamic parts require a lot of support (read TTL bits). That lack of density says power is big by shear force of numbers. I had the use of computers before the 70s (ok only 1969) but I got to see the growth. It was interesting to see 4K of core shrink from a box to a board and further to a chip. Myself I used in the past the higest density parts memory wise I could to save power and wiring. The 2102, 2114 2167 type static parts made life far easier than the 4116 dynamics. But by 1978 it was possible to put 64kx8 on a S100 card cheaply (by then standard) using 16kx1(4116) and 8202. If I were to do a TTL design right now I'd use 32Kx8 (or larger) parts even if the word size were 9 or 11 bits as they are cheap and easy to use and the unused excess bits are no real loss. I'm currently looking at using 64Kx8s as a way to make a RS08like disk for my PDP-8f. So what if I don't use 4 of the 16bits the cost to find X4 parts or other schemes end up using more parts or time. Maybe because every time I did TTL or slice design I wasn't trying to make a period machine or be faithful I was doing some sacrelige but I was having fun and the expereince was no less because the memory, logic used or terminal was way out of period. Heck the guy that did the Apollo AGC has a hats off to me as he did in TTL something conceived as RTL with minimal data. If anything not only was a working machine a significant accomplishment but the information about it he dug up, made visible to public and preserved along the way speaks to great work. For those that try and or succeed to build a PISC (Pitiful Instruction Set Computer) or a VSC (Very Simple Computer) they are contributing a lot to the science and history of computing. After all there are many old (really old) machine preserved and sitting that most of us have not the first idea how to power up and program. Those that do it get my attention for their efforts. Allison > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 8 13:49:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 19:49:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 - hey, they wrote a book! In-Reply-To: <20070707145323.X97084@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 7, 7 04:05:20 pm Message-ID: > Some of us, (Allison, etc.) were responsible for major design decisions. I was there too, but only as a customer. The Model 1 was my main computer for over 10 years, and %deity did I have to fix bits of it... > > Some of us remember more detail than was found by the authors of > "interview" books. Such as the time when RS said that they would be > marketing an S100 adapter. Or the bad connections with the serial board. Oh yes... That connector was jut plain stupid!. I couldn't get a real serial board, so I made my own, etching a bit of PCB to fit over the connector and then Verowiring the rest. It worked fine[1] apart from that darn connector. I ended up putting a metal strip over the PCB to keep it flat on the contacts, it then only (!) needed removing once a year to clean it. [1] I couldn't gwet the DC-DC converter for the RS232 levels, and this was before the MAX232 (or at least before it was easy to get). I ended up using a 555 timer to drive a transistor, the collector load of which was the sort of pulse transformer used for SCR triggering. Took +12V from the back EMF of the primeray and got about -6V (enough...) by rectifiying the secondary. > Or the multiple iterations of patches on top of kludges trying to get the > CPU to E.I. cabling to work reliably. Or (mostly Coco) when RS declared Once they stopped trying to use the MUX and CAS/ signals from the CPU board, and just used RAS/ and a delay line i nthe EI to get the others, it workled OK in my experience. > that because "RS232" stood for "Radio Shack 232", that it was thus open to > changes at the whim of RS. And the joys of a cassette recorder -- shipped with the machine I may add -- that put glitches on the tape when turned off by the remote-control socket in _play_ mode. One extra capacitor (10uF across the erase head wires -- it used DC erase) fixed that, but only after I'd mangled several tapes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 8 15:13:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 21:13:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Victor 9000/Sirius 1 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <46905892.4080102@drexel.edu> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at Jul 7, 7 11:22:58 pm Message-ID: > > I have a Victor 9000 I'm restoring here, and I have a few questions: > 1. Where do the two plugs for the 5 1/4 drive heads connect? This system > has the Universal bios, a 10MB winchester HDD with DOS 3.1x and the > later 1.44MB GCR/MFM floppy installed, but I can only seem to get one of I've only got data on the older GCR-only controller board. On that PCB, the hard connecoters are : J15 (Drive A, lower head) J16 (Drive A, upper haed) J17 (Drive B, lower head) J18 (Drive B, upper head) Note that upper and lower heads have the plugs wired in the reverse order from each other. If in doubt, find the grounded pin on the PCB and connect the head cable so that that pin goes to the screen (shield) of the cable. > the drive heads working (using catweasel on PC to dump a 'formatted' > disk afterwards results in clear data spikes on one side and the other > side blank, and format.exe won't format disks properly unless given the > /1 1-sides flag) > 2. The victor 9000 does NOT say anything when I turn it on. I know the > Sirius 1 did, but I'm not sure the Victor does. Is this normal, or does DOes ,it? I don't remember mine saying anything. > the system need the HC-55564 delta modulation chip replaced? I'd start by probing around the 6852 synchronous serial chip at loaction U11B. That's the chip that drives the delta modulator/demodulator chip. Check that data is actually being sent to said chip. Also check the 'mute' line (inverted from CB2 of the 6522 at U15L) is not stuck asseted. > 3. Does anyone have a schematic or service manual for the victor > 9000/sirius 1 anywhere? I have my own hand-drawn scheamtic of the twin-floppy GCR-only machine. Alas I have no scanner, and after the antics on another forum, I am less inclinded to be so free with such information in the future anyway. > > I also discovered that both of the victor keyboards I have need > re-foaming between the contact discs and key plungers, which is gonna be IIRC, it's a standard Keytronics mechanism. At one time (quite recently) you could buy the mylar + foam assemblies, and they weren't that expensive. I am toid that's no more, though. Of course the Keytronics keyboard turned up in all sorts of machines. You might find a PC clone keyboard that uses the same parts and where the foam is still good. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jul 8 16:38:31 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:38:31 +0100 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46912613.9080208@e-bbes.com> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> <46912613.9080208@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46915957.2010208@philpem.me.uk> e.stiebler wrote: > Try to find somebody with a copy of the 1974 "elector" magazine (uk). > They had a series of articles about a "computer74" which was designed in > '74, and made of 74' series chips. Was a 16 bit thing. Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that the UK edition of Elektor started publication in 1975, and I've got just about every issue from 1977 through 1985 (I'm missing some from '83 and May '86 through some time in 2001). In fact, counting backwards from Jan 1977 (Issue 21) suggests that, at 11 issues per year (the Jul/Aug issue is a 'special double-sized issue' - an age-old Elektor tradition) the first issue published in English would have been the March 1975 issue, published towards the back end of February 1975. I kinda like Elektor. You can identify an Elektor project from half a mile away - the PCB designs have their own unique style. Lots of 45-degree angles, plenty of flood-fills (why, to save on etchant of course) and filleting where pads meet tracks (strengthens the tracks a little). Shame it's such a pain to track down the few volumes I'm missing... (unless anyone has a set looking for a good home that is 8^) ) -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 8 16:45:31 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:45:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Turn a disk into the starship Enterprise! Message-ID: <518559.67860.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, Someone came across this in another group I am in. http://www.asciipr0n.com/archive/0013/bonnie/craft/ It's pretty cool, but I wouldn't use any old disks for this, just crappy PC ones (from modern PC's) which no longer work :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 8 17:06:02 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:06:02 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <0JKV00L7CO77PTPH@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKV00L7CO77PTPH@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46915FCA.8010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > If I were to do a TTL design right now I'd use 32Kx8 > (or larger) parts even if the word size were 9 or 11 bits > as they are cheap and easy to use and the unused excess bits > are no real loss. 11 Bits ??? What uses that? > Maybe because every time I did TTL or slice design I wasn't > trying to make a period machine or be faithful I was doing > some sacrelige but I was having fun and the expereince was > no less because the memory, logic used or terminal was > way out of period. If this your hobby , the main thing is to have fun. > Heck the guy that did the Apollo AGC has a hats off to me as > he did in TTL something conceived as RTL with minimal data. > If anything not only was a working machine a significant > accomplishment but the information about it he dug up, made > visible to public and preserved along the way speaks to > great work. That was great work. > > For those that try and or succeed to build a PISC > (Pitiful Instruction Set Computer) or a VSC (Very > Simple Computer) they are contributing a lot to the > science and history of computing. After all there > are many old (really old) machine preserved and sitting > that most of us have not the first idea how to power > up and program. Those that do it get my attention for > their efforts. The Kenback 1 and the 6800 replica's that come up is great work too. I wish I could get him to do my cpu from my hen scratched schematics. Now the biggest problem I have is do I want Single Instruction or not with my minimal front panel? Is that used that often that it needed? Ben alias woolelf PS. How are IRQ's handeled when single stepping? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 8 17:05:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:05:35 -0700 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 - hey, they wrote a book! In-Reply-To: <0JKU004PG2U0WRPF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKU004PG2U0WRPF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4690FD3F.7519.13D29B37@cclist.sydex.com> > I cannot believe that after two weeks and about 40 messages, no one > actually responded to Theresa's actual message. Instead, from the first > "reply" you all were off arguing inane stuff like whether English > measure units are better than something else. You idiots! > If you doubt that the TRS-80 Model 1 was, as Theresa claimed in her > original message, the "first off-the-shelf home computer", then I > respectfully suggest that you READ THE BOOK! Excuse me, but the TRS-80 isn't even close. If you want a "ready to go, nothing else needed computer with video display", then the IBM 5100 certainly fills the bill. As far as "home computer", how about the Honeywell H316? 1969, shown as a "Kitchen Computer", though I don't know if a single one was ever sold. Or maybe the Viacon (sp?), more of a tape data retrieval system from the 1960's, but firmly aimed at the home market. Very very few ideas erupt suddenly from nothing. Most of our progress is incremental and evolutionary. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 8 17:06:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:06:56 -0700 Subject: Northstar hard sector floppy disks with Catweasel In-Reply-To: <004601c7c17a$84e04690$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <004601c7c17a$84e04690$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4690FD90.26399.13D3D7F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2007 at 12:10, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Has anyone had success reading Northstar hard sector floppy disks with the > Catweasel? Yes, but I code my own data-extraction software for the CW. I don't know if any of the off-the-shelf CW software packages will work with it. Cheers, Chuck From grant at stockly.com Sun Jul 8 17:12:42 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:12:42 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708140737.05a05e78@pop.1and1.com> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2007, you wrote: >On Sun, 8 Jul 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > > > Well, another labor of "love" for the past 6 months is finally done. > > > > Please take a look at http://www.altair680kit.com/index.html > > > > I'd love to hear any questions/feedback on the subject. > >Oooooo.... I haven't seen or heard much of this machine, but it >looks very nice. It seems to me that MITS designed the innards of this >one with more forethought than they did the 8800. > >One problem, the "www" part does not resolve for me. Thanks for the comments guys. You can't go to www.altair680kit.com???!!! Yes, it is much less of a headache than the 8800. : ) Its also quite useful in its base form. It has a VTL-2 basic-like language in ROM which will run in the 1k RAM onboard. By piggy backing 8 more 2102s you will have 2k of ram, which is enough for MiniTrek and Tic Tac Toe. : ) The base form has 1k RAM, 1k ROM, a 9600bps serial port. It takes 6 big PCBs to do the same thing with the Altair 8800. I'm still VERY fond of the 8080! ; ) The 8080 runs CP/M... Of course the 32k ram adaptor with MITS basic will be more than enough for the full Star Trek, or most any other basic program! The 680 kit was fun to build... Grant From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 8 17:21:24 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 23:21:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708140737.05a05e78@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <423693.70103.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I was able to use the link to get there. Nice site too. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Grant Stockly wrote: At 12:01 PM 7/8/2007, you wrote: >On Sun, 8 Jul 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > > > Well, another labor of "love" for the past 6 months is finally done. > > > > Please take a look at http://www.altair680kit.com/index.html > > > > I'd love to hear any questions/feedback on the subject. > >Oooooo.... I haven't seen or heard much of this machine, but it >looks very nice. It seems to me that MITS designed the innards of this >one with more forethought than they did the 8800. > >One problem, the "www" part does not resolve for me. Thanks for the comments guys. You can't go to www.altair680kit.com???!!! Yes, it is much less of a headache than the 8800. : ) Its also quite useful in its base form. It has a VTL-2 basic-like language in ROM which will run in the 1k RAM onboard. By piggy backing 8 more 2102s you will have 2k of ram, which is enough for MiniTrek and Tic Tac Toe. : ) The base form has 1k RAM, 1k ROM, a 9600bps serial port. It takes 6 big PCBs to do the same thing with the Altair 8800. I'm still VERY fond of the 8080! ; ) The 8080 runs CP/M... Of course the 32k ram adaptor with MITS basic will be more than enough for the full Star Trek, or most any other basic program! The 680 kit was fun to build... Grant From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 8 17:30:48 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:30:48 -0600 Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708140737.05a05e78@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070708140737.05a05e78@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46916598.8040403@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > Of course the 32k ram adaptor with MITS basic will be more than enough > for the full Star Trek, or most any other basic program! You can get STAR TREK on the IBM 1130. Who wants to replicate that? > The 680 kit was fun to build... > Grant Oh dam! Now the computer science teacher will find out I knew about that cartridge. From grant at stockly.com Sun Jul 8 17:33:27 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:33:27 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: <423693.70103.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708140737.05a05e78@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708143117.0464f7f0@pop.1and1.com> At 02:21 PM 7/8/2007, you wrote: >I was able to use the link to get there. Nice site too. Why not have a vintage type website for a vintage computer? ; ) I'm not that old and I can remember the good old days when most websites were text. Lots of good info and very little fluf. Apple's website with the 1 giant gif image map... That was a good one. : ) Grant From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 8 20:05:12 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 18:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708143117.0464f7f0@pop.1and1.com> from Grant Stockly at "Jul 8, 7 02:33:27 pm" Message-ID: <200707090105.l6915Cpu005530@floodgap.com> > Why not have a vintage type website for a vintage computer? ; ) Gopher! Gopher! Gopher! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Software sucks because users demand it to. -- Nathan Mhyrvold, Microsoft --- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 8 20:17:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 21:17:12 -0400 Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708012937.0503f550@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <8F688CB2-38DB-40CD-9138-BF0BEB923C72@neurotica.com> On Jul 8, 2007, at 5:29 AM, Grant Stockly wrote: > Well, another labor of "love" for the past 6 months is finally done. > > Please take a look at http://www.altair680kit.com/index.html > > I'd love to hear any questions/feedback on the subject. Whoa...nice work!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jul 8 21:17:20 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:17:20 -0700 Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. References: <181347.40563.qm@web43138.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46919AB0.CC45C340@cs.ubc.ca> Mo wrote: > > So to answer the first question, yes, some of us do collect modems - > its just a more subdued kind of fascination with blinkenlights. > > I also have one of those (Anderson-Jacobsen?) teak box modems, which Livermore Data Systems for the ones being discussed last week, although Doug suggested AJ may also have produced wood box ones. If you're taking that 'teak' attribution from my earlier statement, I have to modify it: upon closer inspection (an unfinished area of wood) it looks like mine may be a lighter shade of black walnut, finishing stain perhaps making it look a little more like teak (I still think Doug's may be mahogany) (..for what it all matters). > still works, though the foam padding is disintegrating, and there isn't > much to call at 110bps... I pulled mine (actually identified as a Livermore Data Systems Model A) out in the past week for closer inspection and to produce the schematic. All of 13 transistors - it's about as complex as a portable transistor radio from the period but it probably cost 10-20 times as much (much higher component quality, in part). Component date codes are 1969 to 1970. Carrier frequencies are 1070/1270 (XMT) and 2025/2225 (RCV) so I think it should be good for 300 baud (originate mode). I'm not completely familiar with the relationship of the 103/113/... modem standards vs baud rates (was there one bell standard (carrier frequencies) covering multiple baud rates (110/300) or were there different standards for the different rates? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 8 22:30:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: <46919AB0.CC45C340@cs.ubc.ca> References: <181347.40563.qm@web43138.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <46919AB0.CC45C340@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070708202817.B54247@shell.lmi.net> > > I also have one of those (Anderson-Jacobsen?) teak box modems, which On Sun, 8 Jul 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Livermore Data Systems for the ones being discussed last week, although Doug > suggested AJ may also have produced wood box ones. Anderson-Jaqcobsen also produced some wood and aluminum ones, but they were a completely different shape, and looked more mass produced, not as an example of woodworking as an art. From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jul 8 23:12:33 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:12:33 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46915957.2010208@philpem.me.uk> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> <46912613.9080208@e-bbes.com> <46915957.2010208@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4691B5B1.2050603@e-bbes.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: >> Try to find somebody with a copy of the 1974 "elector" magazine (uk). >> They had a series of articles about a "computer74" which was designed >> in '74, and made of 74' series chips. Was a 16 bit thing. > > Are you sure about that? No ;-) Actually, I read this in the german edition in 1974, and Tony knew this series from elektor, so I assumed it was in the uk edition too ... From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 8 23:42:20 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:42:20 -0700 Subject: Altair 680 Replica Kit available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070708140737.05a05e78@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: >From: Grant Stockly ---snip--- > >Yes, it is much less of a headache than the 8800. : ) Its also quite >useful in its base form. It has a VTL-2 basic-like language in ROM which >will run in the 1k RAM onboard. By piggy backing 8 more 2102s you will >have 2k of ram, which is enough for MiniTrek and Tic Tac Toe. : ) > ---snip--- Hi For those that are interested in VTL-2, there is a nice manual at: http://vt100.net/mirror/harte/Altair/Altair_8800_VTL-2_Programming_Language_Manua.PDF I know that Pitman had a 6800 Tiny Basic as well. The PaloAltoTinyBasic will fit int 2K of ROM if you have a monitor program to supply console in/out. There is a nice StarTrek for that in one of the Dr Dobs mags. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Jul 9 00:17:44 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:17:44 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4691B5B1.2050603@e-bbes.com> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> <46912613.9080208@e-bbes.com> <46915957.2010208@philpem.me.uk> <4691B5B1.2050603@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4691C4F8.3010508@bluewin.ch> e.stiebler wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> e.stiebler wrote: >>> Try to find somebody with a copy of the 1974 "elector" magazine (uk). >>> They had a series of articles about a "computer74" which was designed >>> in '74, and made of 74' series chips. Was a 16 bit thing. >> >> Are you sure about that? > > No ;-) > Actually, I read this in the german edition in 1974, and Tony knew this > series from elektor, so I assumed it was in the uk edition too ... > Elektor started in the 60ties in Holland. The Elektor 74 is a strange beast : clockless, instructies are tied to memory addresses . Could have hardware multiply and divide ! But it was also very inefficient in its usage of TTL. No PCBs were published. I strongly suspect that no machine, other than the prototype, was ever made. Also software was not covered. I still need to put up my own 12 bit design. Jos From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 8 16:23:07 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:23:07 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <0JKV003AHPZRUD39@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:46:09 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I can recall a couple of different articles on boards that were designed to >plug into a PC, one used a 32032, one a 68K of some sort, and one a Z8000, >I think. I didn't pay them that much attention because I didn't have a "PC" >yet, at that point in time. :-) I may have those articles as well. I also suffered from not having a PC but the designs were very generic if you ignore the PC part and therefore handy. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 8 17:56:32 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 18:56:32 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <0JKV004Z5UBGX4CJ@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:06:02 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >> If I were to do a TTL design right now I'd use 32Kx8 >> (or larger) parts even if the word size were 9 or 11 bits >> as they are cheap and easy to use and the unused excess bits >> are no real loss. >11 Bits ??? What uses that? Nothing I know of but theres no reason in the world to say that could not be done. >> Maybe because every time I did TTL or slice design I wasn't >> trying to make a period machine or be faithful I was doing >> some sacrelige but I was having fun and the expereince was >> no less because the memory, logic used or terminal was >> way out of period. > >If this your hobby , the main thing is to have fun. Roger that! ;) > >> Heck the guy that did the Apollo AGC has a hats off to me as >> he did in TTL something conceived as RTL with minimal data. >> If anything not only was a working machine a significant >> accomplishment but the information about it he dug up, made >> visible to public and preserved along the way speaks to >> great work. > >That was great work. I admire just finding all the data. That was a easter egg hunt if there ever was one. >> >> For those that try and or succeed to build a PISC >> (Pitiful Instruction Set Computer) or a VSC (Very >> Simple Computer) they are contributing a lot to the >> science and history of computing. After all there >> are many old (really old) machine preserved and sitting >> that most of us have not the first idea how to power >> up and program. Those that do it get my attention for >> their efforts. > >The Kenback 1 and the 6800 replica's that come >up is great work too. I wish I could get him >to do my cpu from my hen scratched schematics. >Now the biggest problem I have is do I want >Single Instruction or not with my minimal front >panel? Is that used that often that it needed? >Ben alias woolelf I have only done one front pannel, it was as much or more work than the CPU. It's all the wires and as I like to call it "drillin and blastin". So generally I try to avoid that or do a very minimal one for debug rather than show. The choice of what to build is always tough as there are so many choices. In the end I started with very simple state machines and microprogrammed controllers and gradually decided what capability was missing and how best to achieve it based on what I knew and had done. Whats funny is it's easier to design a slower wide word (32 or more bits) machine (lots of the same stuff repeated) than faster narrow word (8bit) machine. Then you get into variable word length or fixed, single address or multiple, register or memory based, microcode or random logic control, CISC or RISC. In the end whatever is built you're not going to be condemmed as at least it was built. >PS. How are IRQ's handeled when single stepping? Slowly. ;) Single stepping would just mean if there was an INT pending you would see all the steps and the adress changes involved. Or as I was told once, "Your the engineer, what do you want it to do?". Allison > > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jul 9 00:29:26 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:29:26 +0100 Subject: S-100 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023075@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Does anybody have: a) A Northstar Horizon S100 Mother board (Need not be working or populated) b) The PCB artwork for the above. c) Any other S-100 mother board. d) The PCB artwork for the above. Anything more would be a bit expensive on shipping from the US. So its just the board that's required Rod Smallwood From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 9 02:05:44 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:05:44 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <0JKV004Z5UBGX4CJ@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKV004Z5UBGX4CJ@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4691DE48.3080701@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > The choice of what to build is always tough as there are > so many choices. In the end I started with very simple > state machines and microprogrammed controllers and gradually > decided what capability was missing and how best to achieve > it based on what I knew and had done. Looking at many of the old 16 bit computers from bitsavers you sure have a lot of diffent ideas of just what important features are. > Slowly. ;) Single stepping would just mean if there was > an INT pending you would see all the steps and the adress > changes involved. Or as I was told once, "Your the engineer, > what do you want it to do?". Keep as much magic smoke inside as possible. > Allison From n8uhn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 9 02:47:04 2007 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 00:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: <200707081712.l68HBZdn046582@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <865172.9408.qm@web30505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi All, i find it interesting that no one has mentioned the peel and press method of pcb making. some boards are not etched and placed in a chemical bath. instead the board starts as a copperless plate and the traces are on a sheet that carries the traces like a rub on transfer. the sheet has a protective layer that is removed and then the sheet is lay'ed on the blank pcb and pressed or rolled or vacuum pressure is applied. then the holes are drilled. after years of exposure to heat and air or even a bad transfer to start with, the traces "bubble" and wrinkle. i have not seen too many computer boards or cards made this way but alot of consumer audio and cb or marine two way radio's are made with this style of pcb and are a real pain to repair. when the trace is heated to replace a bad component, it wants to lift very quickly. my guess is that the peel and press way is cheaper then a real etched board. Bill ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Jul 9 03:13:17 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:13:17 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 12, Message 3 - Trace wrinkles References: <200707071702.l67H1jwU025895@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <011901c7c201$02097ac0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 11:39:56 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Griffith > Subject: trace wrinkles > > I haven't heard anyone discuss this yet: what causes traces on some old > PCBs to wrinkle and not others? My guess is a combination of suboptimal > glue and wide temperature swings. > Caused by the hot air solder levelling process when a manufacturer skips a process or has the process order slightly out. The solder should only be deposited on the component pads, but some manufacturers used to put the solder on before the silk screen, then level the board. The solder melts during levelling and aggregates under the mask forming the "wrinkles". It should be - silk screen, apply tin/lead to pads, level. It can be - tin/lead, silk screen, mask, level. but if its - apply tin/lead, silk screen, level - you get wrinkles. Wrinkles became less prevalent as tin/lead material costs went up, does not happen now as tin/lead here (UK) is banned except for special applications. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Jul 9 02:07:53 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:07:53 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46912613.9080208@e-bbes.com> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> <46912613.9080208@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4691DEC9.20708@iais.fraunhofer.de> e.stiebler schrieb: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> I've been thinking more and more this last week about designing a CPU >> to be built from TTL logic ICs, purely as an interesting exercise. > > Try to find somebody with a copy of the 1974 "elector" magazine (uk). > They had a series of articles about a "computer74" which was designed > in '74, and made of 74' series chips. Was a 16 bit thing. > > I have these. IMHO the series is incomplete, though, and has never been followed up later. The architecture is quite interesting, in that it has only a single type of instruction, and several memory mapped functional units. The instruction is basically: MOVE DATA FROM SOURCE ADDRESS TO TARGET ADDRESS. The ALU, as well as the PC, and I/O ports, and any number of register were mapped to certain addresses in the available address range. That is, a jump instruction is just: MOVE content of constant cell TO PC, an addition is MOVE value1 TO ALU-OPERAND1-ADDRESS MOVE value2 TO ALU-ADD-ADDRESS MOVE ALU-RESULT-ADDRESS TO result cell (this could be for instance the PC itself, to form an indexed jump. It was IIRC a 12 bit address space, and also 12 bit data (but I've to look that up). -- Holger From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Jul 9 02:22:19 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:22:19 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46915957.2010208@philpem.me.uk> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> <46912613.9080208@e-bbes.com> <46915957.2010208@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4691E22B.8020909@iais.fraunhofer.de> Philip Pemberton schrieb: > e.stiebler wrote: >> Try to find somebody with a copy of the 1974 "elector" magazine (uk). >> They had a series of articles about a "computer74" which was designed >> in '74, and made of 74' series chips. Was a 16 bit thing. > > Are you sure about that? > I was under the impression that the UK edition of Elektor started > publication in 1975, and I've got just about every issue from 1977 > through 1985 (I'm missing some from '83 and May '86 through some time > in 2001). He probably talks about the German issue of Elektor. This started with 4 issues in 1970, and with 11 issues (i.e. the traditional July/August double issue) from 1971. > In fact, counting backwards from Jan 1977 (Issue 21) suggests that, at > 11 issues per year (the Jul/Aug issue is a 'special double-sized > issue' - an age-old Elektor tradition) the first issue published in > English would have been the March 1975 issue, published towards the > back end of February 1975. > I kinda like Elektor. You can identify an Elektor project from half a > mile away - the PCB designs have their own unique style. Lots of > 45-degree angles, plenty of flood-fills (why, to save on etchant of > course) and filleting where pads meet tracks (strengthens the tracks a > little). I stopped reading it around 1992 - it too much follwoed the general trend of filling pages with standard microcontroller crap (often recycled industry application notes), that required some special circuit only available at their or associated stores. Having seen the nth PIC application that basically blinks a LED - what my generation built with 2 transistors, 2 capacitors, 4 resistors - is lame. > Shame it's such a pain to track down the few volumes I'm missing... > (unless anyone has a set looking for a good home that is 8^) ) For German and Dutch issues, eBay is your friend. Content is almost equivalent. -- Holger From ed at ed-thelen.org Mon Jul 9 02:26:34 2007 From: ed at ed-thelen.org (Ed Thelen) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 00:26:34 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <005501c7c1fa$7c4f6030$0200a8c0@TIGERTV> Wakkkyness is not dead. "The Madscientist Builds a Processor" http://madscientistroom.org/table/mippy/ is the tale of a *second* electronics project, the first was a one chip TTL counter. Randy thought that was not hard, why not try a computer? He learned: - add lotsa capacitors between +5v and gnd, all over - ground can jump up and bite ya (a ground plane is a good thing) - and a lot of other practical stuff but crashed on, and finally succeeded :-))) Ed "Pops" Thelen From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jul 9 06:39:07 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:39:07 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 12, Message 3 - Trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:13:17 BST." <011901c7c201$02097ac0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> Message-ID: <200707091139.l69Bd7Js005449@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Mike Hatch" wrote: >> Message: 3 >> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 11:39:56 -0700 (PDT) >> From: David Griffith >> Subject: trace wrinkles >> >> I haven't heard anyone discuss this yet: what causes traces on some old >> PCBs to wrinkle and not others? My guess is a combination of suboptimal >> glue and wide temperature swings. >> >Caused by the hot air solder levelling process when a manufacturer skips a >process or has the process order slightly out. I'm not sure that was an accident. Before SMOBC was the thing to do I remember seeing SM done after HASL more than once - especially in very low cost... I can't say for sure but I think it done that way on purpose - i.e. it was specified. >The solder should only be deposited on the component pads, but some >manufacturers used to put the solder on before the silk screen, then level >the board. The solder melts during levelling and aggregates under the mask >forming the "wrinkles". exactly; expecially for larger areas... -brad From gstreet at indy.net Mon Jul 9 07:07:34 2007 From: gstreet at indy.net (Robert) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 07:07:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Altair Kits Message-ID: <16880946.1183982854595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello All, Regarding the Altair 8800 repro kit: An unsolicited plug -- This kit is of the highest quality. Because of my ridiculous commute schedules, I can only work on my kit sporatically. I missed my big chance to build one in 1975, and I when I saw this kit, I vowed not to miss it again. It's been a long time coming, but it was worth the wait. I love this kit!!! Kudos to Grant! Regards, Robert Greenstreet From Peter.Coghlan at EUROKOM.IE Mon Jul 9 06:51:25 2007 From: Peter.Coghlan at EUROKOM.IE (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 12:51:25 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Old Modems and Telephony switches Message-ID: <01MIQZGWT4XGJTMH75@vms.eurokom.ie> > >I've got a lead on some four-wire and X.25 ("frame relay"?) stuff from University and just yesterday I got my second ADSL modem. What would it take to set up or "simulate" their counterpart (DSLAM?) at home? > Hi Arno, I've got some X.25 equipment which needs a good home. I have two Satelcom switches, two Dec DEMSB routers and two 4-wire NTUs ("baseband modems?") plus a few cables and manuals. The switches power up and can be configured from a console terminal but have problems retaining their configuration over a power off. This is probably due to a problem with the internal PCB mounted batteries which I have had to replace previously. One of them has a push-on connector from the power supply replaced by a soldered connection where the connector had overheated. The NTUs also power up and appear to work. I haven't tried the DEMSBs. Normally the NTUs are clocked from the telephone exchange end but it is possible to change the links in one to get it to generate a clock internally so that the two can talk to each other over a 4 wire crossover cable. At least, I can get all the LEDS to illuminate. I don't know enough about X.25 etc to get any further than that. Let me know if you are interested. However, I am located in Dublin, Ireland so I am not sure how it would be possible to get the stuff to you if you do want it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jul 9 09:02:02 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:02:02 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: M9312 boot rom trade Message-ID: <14363078.1183989722920.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I spent a little time yesterday going through my M9312 boot roms. I have a few spares for devices that I do not have, and I am looking for a few boot roms for devices that I do have. If anyone wants to trade or if you have the boot roms I need, contact me offlist at wacarder at usit.net. Spare ROMs that I have: 755A9 - RP02/03/04/05/06 RM02/03 757A9 - TU16 TE16 TM02/03 I am looking for these: 753A9 - RX01 811A9 - RX02 756A9 - RK05 760A9 - PC05 761A9 - TU60 758A9 - TU10 One other note: I found a few 'oddball' boot ROMs. By examining the contents of the ROMs, I determined that the mnemonics for them are DA and DN. Does anyone know what devices these are for? They are not listed in the M9312 technical reference. Thanks, Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jul 9 09:26:08 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:26:08 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4691DEC9.20708@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> <46912613.9080208@e-bbes.com> <4691DEC9.20708@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <46924580.1070207@e-bbes.com> Holger Veit wrote: > e.stiebler schrieb: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> >>> I've been thinking more and more this last week about designing a CPU >>> to be built from TTL logic ICs, purely as an interesting exercise. >> >> Try to find somebody with a copy of the 1974 "elector" magazine (uk). >> They had a series of articles about a "computer74" which was designed >> in '74, and made of 74' series chips. Was a 16 bit thing. >> >> > I have these. IMHO the series is incomplete, though, and has never been > followed up later. You don't have by any chance the "Elektronik Sonderheft Hardware I & II" ? They came out about end '70 beginning of '80 and had some nice stuff. Even a small CPU/Computer made just out of TTL ... From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jul 7 03:18:39 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 10:18:39 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070707101839.4bbfeac2@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:04:11 -0500 Jules Richardson wrote: > Questions: have any others on here done stuff like this, or have any > pointers to good resources? http://www.mycpu.eu/ Cite: The MyCPU is a "Central Processing Unit" that is completely built with discrete logic gates. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jul 7 02:51:43 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 09:51:43 +0200 Subject: Strange SCSI devices (was: Re: LISA) In-Reply-To: References: <20070703085551.61830@gmx.net> <200707031551.l63FpF2Q029521@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20070707095143.0de15b0d@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:44:30 -0500 "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > Are there any models of SCSI-ethernet with deciphered internals? SE(4) NetBSD Kernel Interfaces Manual SE(4) NAME se -- Cabletron EA41x SCSI bus Ethernet interface driver SYNOPSIS se* at scsibus? target ? lun ? DESCRIPTION The se driver supports the Cabletron EA41x SCSI bus Ethernet interface. This driver is a bit unusual. It must look like a network interface and it must also appear to be a SCSI device to the SCSI system. [...] -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ray at arachelian.com Mon Jul 9 10:15:02 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:15:02 -0400 Subject: [lisaem] LisaEm 1.0.0 Released Message-ID: <469250F6.3040803@arachelian.com> LisaEm 1.0.0 has been released. Download is available at http://lisaem.sunder.net/downloads.html as usual. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lisa Emulator Change History http://lisaem.sunder.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2007.07.06 - Display color balancing to remove fuzziness. 2007.07.05 - LisaConfig bugs found - overwriting date information with garbage on save of preferences. - corrected a bug preventing the grabbing of the host time and date. Found that MacWorks locks up when date is invalid. 2007.07.04 - LisaEm documentation completion 2007.07.03 - Testing various opcodes to locate scroll bar arrow bug in LOS not found, but eliminated shift/rotate opcodes. 2007.07.01 - regression testing to locate MacWorks bug - not found yet, high probability that it lives somewhere inside the C++ code. 2007.06.30 - added Mac OS trap symbol printing for A-Line traps for tracelog 2007.06.29 - fixed inability to detect no-floppy from Lisa boot ROM - fixed entry to Service mode - not perfect, need to attempt to boot from bad profile. - fixed tracelog bugs (hardcoded /log/lisaem-output) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 10:24:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:24:52 -0500 Subject: M9312 boot rom trade In-Reply-To: <14363078.1183989722920.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <14363078.1183989722920.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 7/9/07, Ashley Carder wrote: > One other note: I found a few 'oddball' boot > ROMs. By examining the contents of the ROMs, > I determined that the mnemonics for them are > DA and DN. Does anyone know what devices these > are for? They are not listed in the M9312 > technical reference. The "D" makes me think of comms interfaces, but I don't know that for a fact. Could they be MOP and/or DDCMP boot PROMs? Disassembling them and extracting the CSR addresses could be most revealing. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 10:26:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:26:22 -0500 Subject: Strange SCSI devices (was: Re: LISA) In-Reply-To: <20070707095143.0de15b0d@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <20070703085551.61830@gmx.net> <200707031551.l63FpF2Q029521@onyx.spiritone.com> <20070707095143.0de15b0d@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: On 7/7/07, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 15:44:30 -0500 > "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > > > Are there any models of SCSI-ethernet with deciphered internals? > SE(4) NetBSD Kernel Interfaces Manual SE(4) > > The se driver supports the Cabletron EA41x SCSI bus Ethernet interface. Thanks for that. I happen to have a Dayna interface or two, but at least perusing the 'sedriver' source could be illuminating, even if it's not compatible. -ethan From marvin at west.net Mon Jul 9 13:41:09 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:41:09 -0700 Subject: Trace Wrinkles Message-ID: <46928145.79AD0B05@west.net> > From: "Mike Hatch" > > I haven't heard anyone discuss this yet: what causes traces on some old > > PCBs to wrinkle and not others? My guess is a combination of suboptimal > > glue and wide temperature swings. > > > Caused by the hot air solder levelling process when a manufacturer skips a > process or has the process order slightly out. > The solder should only be deposited on the component pads, but some > manufacturers used to put the solder on before the silk screen, then level > the board. The solder melts during levelling and aggregates under the mask > forming the "wrinkles". > > It should be - silk screen, apply tin/lead to pads, level. > It can be - tin/lead, silk screen, mask, level. > but if its - apply tin/lead, silk screen, level - you get wrinkles. You seem to be implying that the wrinkles are a result of the PCB manufacturing process, and that is wrong; the wrinkles you are talking about occur during wave soldering at the assembly portion of the process. By going to SMOBC (Solder Mask Over Bare Copper), both the wrinkles and extra weight of solder picked up during the wave soldering process were eliminated. And of course, it was not a problem when the boards were hand soldered. The wrinkles are NOT caused by hot air leveling (that was my area of expertise when I was working as a field engineer installing/training/maintaining Gyrex Hot Air Levelers.) I know of no process or reason for putting soldermask over tin/lead and using Hot Air Leveling for the reflow process. Hot air leveling was mainly used for SMOBC boards. Solder gives a longer shelf life than the SealBrite coatings that were also fairly common a number of years ago, and thus Hot Air Leveling was also used on some boards without soldermask. The usual manufacturing process before hot air leveling was drill, electroless copper/copper plate, plating resist applied (either photographically or silkscreening), copper plate to desired thickness, tin/lead plate, strip resist, and etch. If the board was going to be hot air leveled, the tin/lead plating was chemically removed. Otherwise it went through a reflow process to alloy the tin/lead into solder before the soldermask was applied. From janprunk at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 14:01:02 2007 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 21:01:02 +0200 Subject: Antique computer books for sale Message-ID: Hello ! I received some antique books about computing from the library. They are all in English language and in good condition. The price for one book is 3 Euros + postage. The books are shipped from Slovenia, Europe. The link to the list is available at: http://yang.mtveurope.org/books.html If you are interested, contact me to my private email address. Kind regards, Jan Prunk -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jan Prunk GPG key: 00E80E86 | | E-mail: jan at prunk.be Fingerprint: 77C5 156E 29A4 EB6C 1C4A | | http://blog.prunk.be 5EBA 414A 29F5 00E8 0E86 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Jul 9 16:00:03 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S-100 Message-ID: <549481.8145.qm@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Does anybody have: a) A Northstar Horizon S100 Mother board (Need not be working or populated) b) The PCB artwork for the above. c) Any other S-100 mother board. d) The PCB artwork for the above. Anything more would be a bit expensive on shipping from the US. So its just the board that's required Rod Smallwood Hi Rod, Check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Verns_Stuff/ Vern has a NorthStar Horizon chassis with motherboard for sale. I'd bet he would sell you the motherboard alone if you made an offer. Tell Vern I sent you and you saw this on CCTALK mailing list. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From austin at ozpass.co.uk Mon Jul 9 16:51:09 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:51:09 +0100 Subject: Pics of my cleaned-up Crimson VGX. Message-ID: Thanks for all of the recent assistance regarding cleaning products for my Crimson VGX. A combination of Naptha (in Zippo lighter fluid form) and hot soapy water have cleaned it up a treat. In fact it?s now looking almost as good as new, pics here: http://ozpass.co.uk The system almost boots as well. I don?t have a keyboard for it so I?ve made a null-modem cable with USB adapter for my MacBook and hooked it to the VGX using minicom. This redirects the console to the serial port so I can watch it booting. Currently it?s halting whilst trying to mount an NFS share from a computer called ?Onyx?. I guess I?ll have to edit fstab to remove the offending entry. In other good news I?ve discovered an IRIX 5.3 CD in the drive, complete with caddy! It?s days like today with a sparkling clean functional SGI Crimson VGX in your kitchen that the hobby makes perfect sense (except to one?s better half! ;-) -Austin. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 9 16:45:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:45:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4691B5B1.2050603@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Jul 8, 7 10:12:33 pm Message-ID: > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > e.stiebler wrote: > >> Try to find somebody with a copy of the 1974 "elector" magazine (uk). > >> They had a series of articles about a "computer74" which was designed > >> in '74, and made of 74' series chips. Was a 16 bit thing. > > > > Are you sure about that? > > No ;-) > Actually, I read this in the german edition in 1974, and Tony knew this > series from elektor, so I assumed it was in the uk edition too ... I do? That's news to me. I am not sure there _was_ Elektor in the UK in 1974... The early UK computer projects I know about are : the 'PE Champ' (that's tue UK magazine 'Practical Electronics') from 1977 (a 4040-based computer + 1702 programmer + UV eraser) ; the PE Digi-Cal from 1972 (a 4-function dsektop calculator built in TTL + a diode-matrix ROM. I don't recall any general-purpose computer built from TTL in a UK magazine. I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but there was a Radio Shack book called something like 'Understanding Computers'. It was A3 in size, landscape format with a sprial binding on the top edge IIRC. Green cover. There was a design in there for a simple 'processor' with 16 locations of RAM. I suspect it could easily be built from TTL. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 9 16:51:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:51:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4691E22B.8020909@iais.fraunhofer.de> from "Holger Veit" at Jul 9, 7 09:22:19 am Message-ID: > > I kinda like Elektor. You can identify an Elektor project from half a > > mile away - the PCB designs have their own unique style. Lots of > > 45-degree angles, plenty of flood-fills (why, to save on etchant of > > course) and filleting where pads meet tracks (strengthens the tracks a > > little). > I stopped reading it around 1992 - it too much follwoed the general > trend of filling pages with standard microcontroller crap (often I know what you mean. They've got better recently, at least you can now get source code for the microcontrollers in about half of their projects... > recycled industry application notes), that required some special circuit > only available at their or associated stores. Having seen the nth PIC > application that basically blinks a LED - what my generation built with > 2 transistors, 2 capacitors, 4 resistors - is lame. You're making me feel very old. When I was a kid, I used to make a neon bulb blink using one resistor and one capacitor. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 9 17:45:52 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:45:52 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83D918A5-679C-4C94-8563-0ABD41BBD10E@neurotica.com> On Jul 9, 2007, at 5:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> recycled industry application notes), that required some special >> circuit >> only available at their or associated stores. Having seen the nth PIC >> application that basically blinks a LED - what my generation built >> with >> 2 transistors, 2 capacitors, 4 resistors - is lame. > > You're making me feel very old. When I was a kid, I used to make a > neon > bulb blink using one resistor and one capacitor. Relaxation oscillators are fun. I like the UJT version as well, though UJTs are getting harder to find than they once were. I have two or three 2N2646 UJTs left. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 9 17:53:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 15:53:12 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <83D918A5-679C-4C94-8563-0ABD41BBD10E@neurotica.com> References: , <83D918A5-679C-4C94-8563-0ABD41BBD10E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <469259E8.5517.19248E69@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2007 at 18:45, Dave McGuire wrote: > Relaxation oscillators are fun. I like the UJT version as well, > though UJTs are getting harder to find than they once were. I have > two or three 2N2646 UJTs left. I've still got about a dozen tunnel diodes sitting unsued in my desk drawer. One of these days, I'm going to do something with at least one of them. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 9 17:54:50 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <83D918A5-679C-4C94-8563-0ABD41BBD10E@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 9, 7 06:45:52 pm" Message-ID: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> > > You're making me feel very old. When I was a kid, I used to make a > > neon > > bulb blink using one resistor and one capacitor. > > Relaxation oscillators are fun. I like the UJT version as well, > though UJTs are getting harder to find than they once were. I have > two or three 2N2646 UJTs left. Relaxation oscillator? Tony may feel very old, but I'm just feeling very dumb. ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. -- Tacitus --------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 9 18:08:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:08:32 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469259E8.5517.19248E69@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <83D918A5-679C-4C94-8563-0ABD41BBD10E@neurotica.com> <469259E8.5517.19248E69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4692BFF0.70706@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've still got about a dozen tunnel diodes sitting unsued in my desk > drawer. One of these days, I'm going to do something with at least > one of them. Are you sure there are there? I hear the sound of little shovels. Your diodes must be escaping err tunneling... :) I don't think I have seen tunnel diodes for sale anywhere? --- Strange how more and more transistors are needed to to do the simple things like blinking a light. --- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 9 17:54:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 15:54:18 -0700 Subject: Great little slide show on memories Message-ID: <46925A2A.21113.19258EAE@cclist.sydex.com> On the IEEE Spectrum web site: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jul07/5337 It'd be fun to have the book that's mentioned in the text. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 9 18:20:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:20:35 -0600 Subject: Great little slide show on memories In-Reply-To: <46925A2A.21113.19258EAE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46925A2A.21113.19258EAE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4692C2C3.2010200@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On the IEEE Spectrum web site: > > http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jul07/5337 > > It'd be fun to have the book that's mentioned in the text. Yuck !!! I have to download a *PLUG IN* just to read the page. > Cheers, > Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 9 18:34:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 16:34:18 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4692BFF0.70706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <469259E8.5517.19248E69@cclist.sydex.com>, <4692BFF0.70706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4692638A.29781.194A2BE2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2007 at 17:08, woodelf wrote: > Are you sure there are there? I hear the sound of little shovels. > Your diodes must be escaping err tunneling... :) > I don't think I have seen tunnel diodes for sale anywhere? I've let the Gunn diodes in the adjoining drawer know about the possibility of escape. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 9 18:45:53 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:45:53 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4692C8B1.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but there was a Radio Shack > book called something like 'Understanding Computers'. It was A3 in size, > landscape format with a sprial binding on the top edge IIRC. Green cover. > There was a design in there for a simple 'processor' with 16 locations of > RAM. I suspect it could easily be built from TTL. The only one I remember was BCD style 4 bit cpu. It would be nice to do nice calculator as retro-techology but I have no idea where to get NICE push button switches and key caps. > -tony From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Jul 9 19:15:33 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 17:15:33 -0700 Subject: Need Data Sheet Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> I recently came across a stock of what seems to be 16 bit wide memory chips. But I'm getting nowhere trying to find a data sheet. Can anybody help out? The parts are UM61M512K-15, 32 pins DIP. The logo is round, world shaped with 3 vertical and 3 horizontal lines. Date codes are 95 and 96. The parts were on some mini-486 PCBs. If these really are 16 bit wide and 32K deep, they would be great for a SBC I'm building. Especially if the 15 means 15 ns. Any help for pinouts or data sheet greatly appreciated. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Jul 9 19:31:43 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 17:31:43 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C711@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Tony Duell wrote: I do? That's news to me. I am not sure there _was_ Elektor in the UK in 1974... The early UK computer projects I know about are : the 'PE Champ' (that's tue UK magazine 'Practical Electronics') from 1977 (a 4040-based computer + 1702 programmer + UV eraser) ; the PE Digi-Cal from 1972 (a 4-function dsektop calculator built in TTL + a diode-matrix ROM. I don't recall any general-purpose computer built from TTL in a UK magazine. [ snip ] -tony I believe that Elektor was publishing in the UK in 1974, but I don't have my copies at hand to pick the exact date. I know the first and second binders were full by the end of 1976 (I used to buy the publisher's binders, an icky green, tacky board binder). And I read all of them but do not remember any computer projects. And I would have been extremely interested because I was building an 8 bit TTL machine at the time. However, there was the ACS (Amateur Computer Society), an early UK computer group that designed and built a 16 bit TTL computer. It was well documented in their Newsletter in the mid-70's. All my copies were stolen, and I've looked for 20 years to find copies. Any chance of the UK CC'ers having copies of these newsletters? Billy From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Jul 9 19:50:05 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 17:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Data Sheet In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <745224.64133.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Billy Pettit wrote: > The parts were on some mini-486 PCBs. These are undoubtedly high-speed CMOS cache RAM. There were many makers of these in the 486 era, and the pinouts tended to be standard. Do you have a manual for the 486 boards? It will likely specify compatible cache chips, as these were freqently supplied by the integrator, not pre-installed. > If these really are 16 bit wide and 32K deep, they > would be great for a SBC > I'm building. Especially if the 15 means 15 ns. > I found a datasheet for a UM61512AK-15 (at www.alldatasheet.com) which is a 15ns 64K x 8 CMOS SRAM. I suspect it is similar. --Bill From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Jul 9 20:02:24 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 9 Jul 2007 18:02:24 -0700 Subject: Need Data Sheet In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <1184029344.4692daa0228d9@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Billy Pettit : > I recently came across a stock of what seems to be 16 bit wide memory > chips. > But I'm getting nowhere trying to find a data sheet. Can anybody help > out? > > > > The parts are UM61M512K-15, 32 pins DIP. The logo is round, world > shaped > with 3 vertical and 3 horizontal lines. Date codes are 95 and 96. > > The parts were on some mini-486 PCBs. > > If these really are 16 bit wide and 32K deep, they would be great for a > SBC > I'm building. Especially if the 15 means 15 ns. Sounds like Sram from the L2 Cache on the 486 boards. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 9 20:27:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:27:22 -0700 Subject: Need Data Sheet In-Reply-To: <745224.64133.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <745224.64133.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46927E0A.25176.19B1AE89@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2007 at 17:50, William Maddox wrote: >> I found a datasheet for a UM61512AK-15 (at > www.alldatasheet.com) which is a > 15ns 64K x 8 CMOS SRAM. I suspect it is similar. And the ISSI IS61M512-15N is a 64Kx8 15 nsec. SRAM. So, most likely it isn't a 16-bit wide version. OTOH, there's a nice 16bit SRAM in some modems, such as the Hayes 28.8K external models. In an 0.300" wide DIP too. Cheers, Chuck From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Jul 9 08:22:00 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 06:22:00 -0700 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: References: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> Message-ID: <46923678.40306@garlic.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> >From what I've seen, this is caused by the copper and the base material >> expanding and shrinking at different rates. It is seen quite a bit where >> temperature ranges between extremes, especially with cheap and older >> stuff. > > No. The differences in expansion just are not that big. If you do the > math, you will see that the dimensional changes of the the two > disimilar substances just are not that big - way too small to cause > all sorts of wrinkles. At worst case, maybe *a* wrinkle would show up > on a long trace. > The differences are enough for many thermal cycles over a long period of time. It seems that the greater the temperature delta and the more frequently the temp is cycled the sooner it occurs. I've seen boards cycled between 20 and 300 degrees C five times a day that have wrinkles in about a year and trace lift by five years. I've seen similar wrinkling in boards cycled between 7 and 98 degrees C hourly that have been in service for as long as 20 years. Interestingly, the boards that are at a (more or less) constant 200 to 300 degrees C show no wrinkling or trace lift. The expansion coefficients may be have a relatively small delta but it is enough given enough time, enough temp cycling and enough of a temp range. [snip] >> I'm told this is one big reason why PCB's were not accepted for >> military and >> space-grade stuff for quite some time before they managed to more >> closely match >> materials' thermal expansion coefficients. > > No. It is almost all due to bureaucratic inertia. The military is > funny this way - sometimes a new technology will be scooped up as soon > as served, yet others they drag their feet with. > > And of course, in the 1950s and 60 all the contractors were making a > mint, charging the government for all that hand wired work. They were > not about to change to a cost saving new idea. > Well, when someone involved in getting mil-spec and space grade acceptance for PCB's mentions it, one tends to believe him. == jd Real programmers don't draw flowcharts. Flowcharts are, after all, the illiterate's form of documentation. Cavemen drew flowcharts; look how much good it did them. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 23:21:22 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:21:22 -0400 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: <46923678.40306@garlic.com> References: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> <46923678.40306@garlic.com> Message-ID: > The expansion coefficients may be have a relatively small delta but it is enough > given enough time, enough temp cycling and enough of a temp range. Why would the time and number of cycles be of concern? The materials are going to expand so much, then contract right back where they started. If they shrank (maybe due to a cold cycle), I can see some cases with some stretching of the copper that would permanently change the dimensions (and even there - the copper may never be stretched into the plastic area). With a heating cycle, any deformations are going to be pulled right out when the contractions occur due to cooling. And if there is a wrinkle, any additional deformations to the metal from cycling are going to be at that wrinkle, as the copper has been weakened at that point. There will be no "incentive" for the copper to wrinkle elsewhere. And how many deep (as in solder machine temperature) cycles? I hope only one, or all your parts are going to be at the bottom of the chassis. Thermal expansion of materials is generally not a cumulative property. And with some "back of the napkin" calculations, running an inch long copper trace thru a solder machine is going to make it expand less that five thousandths more than the substrate - that's not much. Probably not even enough for a single wrinkle. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 00:02:28 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:02:28 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469259E8.5517.19248E69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 9 Jul 2007 at 18:45, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Relaxation oscillators are fun. I like the UJT version as well, > > though UJTs are getting harder to find than they once were. I have > > two or three 2N2646 UJTs left. > >I've still got about a dozen tunnel diodes sitting unsued in my desk >drawer. One of these days, I'm going to do something with at least >one of them. > >Cheers, >Chuck Hi For those that want to play with the concept of a Tunnel Diode, one can make a almost TD using two junction fets. You need a p and a n channel fet. Place them such that the sources are crossed to the gates. They will then act like a TD except that they will completely turn off as the voltage increases. For the smaller TO-92 type fets, they'll peak at around 1 to 1.5 milliamps. They will oscillate up to a couple hundred Hz. I built a FM jammer with a small trim cap, two fets, a coil, variable resistor , bypass cap and a 9 volt battery. For logic functions, they can be made into a stable two state element by stacking 2 of these. One will have the higher voltage across it while the other will have the lower voltage. If you really want them to act like a TD, place a resistor in parallel to give the final slope. It doesn't make them any better at doing fun things but is closer the a real TD. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07 From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Jul 10 00:05:35 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: <46923678.40306@garlic.com> References: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> <46923678.40306@garlic.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, jd wrote: > Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 06:22:00 -0700 > From: jd > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General at bakaboy.onymouse.net, > "Discussion at bakaboy.onymouse.net": On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: trace wrinkles > > William Donzelli wrote: >>>> From what I've seen, this is caused by the copper and the base material >>> expanding and shrinking at different rates. It is seen quite a bit where >>> temperature ranges between extremes, especially with cheap and older >>> stuff. >> >> No. The differences in expansion just are not that big. If you do the >> math, you will see that the dimensional changes of the the two >> disimilar substances just are not that big - way too small to cause >> all sorts of wrinkles. At worst case, maybe *a* wrinkle would show up >> on a long trace. >> > > The differences are enough for many thermal cycles over a long period of time. > > It seems that the greater the temperature delta and the more frequently the temp > is cycled the sooner it occurs. > > I've seen boards cycled between 20 and 300 degrees C five times a day that have > wrinkles in about a year and trace lift by five years. I've seen similar > wrinkling in boards cycled between 7 and 98 degrees C hourly that have been in > service for as long as 20 years. Interestingly, the boards that are at a (more > or less) constant 200 to 300 degrees C show no wrinkling or trace lift. 300 C is way above the melting point of even RoHS compliant solder, if you temperature cycled a standard PCB to that temperature, "wrinkles" would be the least of your troubles... Peter Wallace From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 10 00:23:00 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 23:23:00 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469317B4.3010002@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > If you really want them to act like a TD, place a resistor in parallel > to give the final slope. It doesn't make them any better at doing > fun things but is closer the a real TD. > Dwight But with a ka-zillion tunnel diodes you can build the fastest computer ever. Well that was what all the hype was about in the early 60's. Did anyone ever use Junction Fets in computer logic? From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jul 9 18:12:15 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:12:15 +0100 Subject: S-100 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023080@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks.. I did ... Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: 09 July 2007 22:00 To: cctech at classiccmp.org; RodSmallwood at obmr.btconnect.com Subject: Re: S-100 Hi Does anybody have: a) A Northstar Horizon S100 Mother board (Need not be working or populated) b) The PCB artwork for the above. c) Any other S-100 mother board. d) The PCB artwork for the above. Anything more would be a bit expensive on shipping from the US. So its just the board that's required Rod Smallwood Hi Rod, Check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Verns_Stuff/ Vern has a NorthStar Horizon chassis with motherboard for sale. I'd bet he would sell you the motherboard alone if you made an offer. Tell Vern I sent you and you saw this on CCTALK mailing list. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 01:28:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 23:28:25 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469317B4.3010002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <469317B4.3010002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4692C499.26660.1AC54A35@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2007 at 23:23, woodelf wrote: > But with a ka-zillion tunnel diodes you can build the fastest > computer ever. Well that was what all the hype was about in the > early 60's. > Did anyone ever use Junction Fets in computer logic? I doubt it--the transition seemed to be from bipolar to MOS in integrated circuits. JFETs in digital logic seem to have been bypossed. I've still got my GE tunnel diode (and SCR and Rectifier) manual. Lots of interesting circuits, but nothing that could have been constructed using other semiconductors at the time. There are some logic circuits in the book, however. Negistors, it turns out, are pretty easy to build. There's a web site that describes how to make simple ones using a sheet of galvanized steel. "Accidental" negistors by way of point-junction devices have probably been reported since the 1920s or earlier. Another 2-terminal semiconductor that I like is the diac. Can be used for relaxation oscillators, but up until a few years ago, I had one hooked in series with the line going to my answering machine. The moment the line is picked up at a phone anywhere within the house, the answering machine is electrically disconnected and doesn't interfere with the call. Also useful for building simple relaxation oscillators--and, of course, triggering triacs. Cheers, Chuck Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jul 10 05:02:57 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:02:57 -0300 Subject: Need Data Sheet References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <032701c7c2d9$c730bba0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >I recently came across a stock of what seems to be 16 bit wide memory >chips. >But I'm getting nowhere trying to find a data sheet. Can anybody help out? >The parts are UM61M512K-15, 32 pins DIP. The logo is round, world shaped >with 3 vertical and 3 horizontal lines. Date codes are 95 and 96. >The parts were on some mini-486 PCBs. >If these really are 16 bit wide and 32K deep, they would be great for a SBC >I'm building. Especially if the 15 means 15 ns. >Any help for pinouts or data sheet greatly appreciated. I have it here, check your mailbox :o) But these are 8-bit 64K SRAMs, not 16 bit. Very useful for eprom emulators and small old computers ;o) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 10 05:48:59 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:48:59 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <0JKY008S9LYAUSX3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:45:52 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Jul 9, 2007, at 5:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> recycled industry application notes), that required some special >>> circuit >>> only available at their or associated stores. Having seen the nth PIC >>> application that basically blinks a LED - what my generation built >>> with >>> 2 transistors, 2 capacitors, 4 resistors - is lame. >> >> You're making me feel very old. When I was a kid, I used to make a >> neon >> bulb blink using one resistor and one capacitor. > > Relaxation oscillators are fun. I like the UJT version as well, >though UJTs are getting harder to find than they once were. I have >two or three 2N2646 UJTs left. Yes but you can build your own UJT using a 2n3904 and 3906 plus two resistors. Allison > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 10 05:50:51 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:50:51 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <0JKY00J23M1ESK55@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > From: woodelf > Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 23:23:00 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >dwight elvey wrote: > >> If you really want them to act like a TD, place a resistor in parallel >> to give the final slope. It doesn't make them any better at doing >> fun things but is closer the a real TD. >> Dwight >But with a ka-zillion tunnel diodes you can build the fastest >computer ever. Well that was what all the hype was about in the >early 60's. >Did anyone ever use Junction Fets in computer logic? Not that I've seen. Likely reason for that is by time the JFETs became common enough production computers were IC based. However MOSfets on silicon did make it into IC as CMOS and well.. there in computers big time, Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 10 05:55:14 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:55:14 -0400 Subject: Need Data Sheet Message-ID: <0JKY008SEM8P9335@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Need Data Sheet > From: "Billy Pettit" > Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:15:33 -0700 > To: > >I recently came across a stock of what seems to be 16 bit wide memory chips. >But I'm getting nowhere trying to find a data sheet. Can anybody help out? > > > >The parts are UM61M512K-15, 32 pins DIP. The logo is round, world shaped >with 3 vertical and 3 horizontal lines. Date codes are 95 and 96. > > Mine are 64kx8. Did you try google "um61512 datasheet"? Allison From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jul 10 07:49:13 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:49:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <0JKY008S9LYAUSX3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKY008S9LYAUSX3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200707101250.IAA15906@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Yes but you can build your own UJT using a 2n3904 and 3906 plus two > resistors. Okay, you've got me curious. (Not that that's difficult. :) What's a UJT, and how can you build one from those parts? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 08:56:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:56:46 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469317B4.3010002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >From: woodelf > >dwight elvey wrote: > >>If you really want them to act like a TD, place a resistor in parallel >>to give the final slope. It doesn't make them any better at doing >>fun things but is closer the a real TD. >>Dwight >But with a ka-zillion tunnel diodes you can build the fastest >computer ever. Well that was what all the hype was about in the >early 60's. >Did anyone ever use Junction Fets in computer logic? > Hi Not that I know of. JFETs only come in the depletion mode. This would make powering on harder. MOSFETs can be made both depletion and enhancement because the gate is isolated. The current technology is to use enhancement type MOSFETS. Besides, the combination JFETs I talked about do not work on the same principle as a TD, they just act like one in that they have a nice negative resistance region. Real TDs will oscillate at even higher frequencies. TDs had the limiting problem that they were current devises. They never turned off. So, even if they made logic, the power consumed would limit the density. Right now, we are at the power density limits for uP's. We can build smaller ones and put more circuits on a chip but we've hit the limits of power density. We get smaller improvements from lower K insulation on wiring but power is now the wall. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 10 09:15:21 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:15:21 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4691E22B.8020909@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <20070710141521.GA2943@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 10:51:18PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > recycled industry application notes), that required some special circuit > > only available at their or associated stores. Having seen the nth PIC > > application that basically blinks a LED - what my generation built with > > 2 transistors, 2 capacitors, 4 resistors - is lame. > > You're making me feel very old. When I was a kid, I used to make a neon > bulb blink using one resistor and one capacitor. I can do it with just a single resistor and a (properly aged) neon bulb, on US line voltage. :) I can even control the rate of blinking using my hand and an ordinary lamp. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 10 09:49:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:49:33 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469259E8.5517.19248E69@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <83D918A5-679C-4C94-8563-0ABD41BBD10E@neurotica.com> <469259E8.5517.19248E69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <91A66B0C-DE44-4095-83A9-A244EFAD626C@neurotica.com> On Jul 9, 2007, at 6:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Relaxation oscillators are fun. I like the UJT version as well, >> though UJTs are getting harder to find than they once were. I have >> two or three 2N2646 UJTs left. > > I've still got about a dozen tunnel diodes sitting unsued in my desk > drawer. One of these days, I'm going to do something with at least > one of them. Wow...Tunnel diodes certainly are hard to find these days. I've never played with them. Interested in swapping for one or two? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 10 10:01:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:01:04 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2007, at 6:54 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> You're making me feel very old. When I was a kid, I used to make a >>> neon >>> bulb blink using one resistor and one capacitor. >> >> Relaxation oscillators are fun. I like the UJT version as well, >> though UJTs are getting harder to find than they once were. I have >> two or three 2N2646 UJTs left. > > Relaxation oscillator? > > Tony may feel very old, but I'm just feeling very dumb. ;) It's an oscillator built around a capacitor and something with a breakdown voltage, a neon lamp for example. The capacitor charges slowly through a resistor at a calculable rate, and then (partially) discharges through the neon lamp quickly when its ionization threshold is reached and it conducts...then the cycle repeats. You vary the frequency of oscillation by changing the value of the charging resistor. In this manner, you can have a blinking light with one resistor, one capacitor, and (of course) a neon lamp. What's neat about it is that the blinking light is actually an active part of the oscillator, rather than just an indicator that displays the oscillator's state. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jul 10 10:25:43 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200707101530.LAA16989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It's an oscillator built around a capacitor and something with a > breakdown voltage, a neon lamp for example. With a breakdown voltage, a (lower) extinction voltage, and such that breakdown does not harm it (in contrast to, say, a reverse-biased silicon diode, which would likely fry in such a circuit). > The capacitor charges slowly through a resistor at a calculable rate, > and then (partially) discharges through the neon lamp quickly when > its ionization threshold is reached and it conducts...then the cycle > repeats. You vary the frequency of oscillation by changing the value > of the charging resistor. But you get only tiny on times. Add another resistor and use a larger cap and you can stretch the on time - indeed, with a bit of care you should be able to get pretty much any duty cycle and frequency. > What's neat about it is that the blinking light is actually an active > part of the oscillator, rather than just an indicator that displays > the oscillator's state. Indeed. The hysteresis in the voltage/current characteristic of neon bulbs lends itself to lots of cool hacks. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 10:43:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:43:00 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <91A66B0C-DE44-4095-83A9-A244EFAD626C@neurotica.com> References: , <469259E8.5517.19248E69@cclist.sydex.com>, <91A66B0C-DE44-4095-83A9-A244EFAD626C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46934694.522.1CC10858@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2007 at 10:49, Dave McGuire wrote: > Wow...Tunnel diodes certainly are hard to find these days. I've > never played with them. Interested in swapping for one or two? Sure. I'm not getting any younger. What have you got that's interesting? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 10:45:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:45:18 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com>, Message-ID: <4693471E.5086.1CC3230C@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2007 at 11:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > In this manner, you can have a blinking light with one resistor, > one capacitor, and (of course) a neon lamp. What's neat about it is > that the blinking light is actually an active part of the oscillator, > rather than just an indicator that displays the oscillator's state. ...and you can build somewhat more exotic circuits very simply, such as ring counters and multivibrators. Has anyone constructed an amplifier using a neon lamp? Should be possible, if not economical. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 10 11:27:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:27:44 -0600 Subject: Pics of my cleaned-up Crimson VGX. In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:51:09 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Austin Pass writes: > A combination of Naptha (in Zippo lighter fluid form) and hot soapy water > have cleaned it up a treat. In fact it=B9s now looking almost as good as new > pics here: > > http://ozpass.co.uk It looks really sweet! I like the inclusion of the cat for scale :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 10 12:04:27 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:04:27 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4693BC1B.2030503@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > Right now, we are at the power density limits for uP's. We can > build smaller ones and put more circuits on a chip but we've > hit the limits of power density. We get smaller improvements > from lower K insulation on wiring but power is now the wall. > Dwight Does this mean that if we reduce the number of transistors we can go faster? Let see a PDP 8/Z(1) with current technology would be? :) I think the problem is computer design rather than the chip design -- You don't have random access memory any more & salesmen push clock speed rather than a usefull measure of computing power. (1) Zippy - 1000x faster the a PDP 8/E. Now back to thinking about how to build a homebrew CPU... Front panel or no Front panel. From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Jul 10 12:05:04 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:05:04 +0100 Subject: Pics of my cleaned-up Crimson VGX. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/7/07 17:27, "Richard" wrote: > It looks really sweet! I like the inclusion of the cat for scale :-) Haha thanks. The inclusion of /my/ cat is deceptive, however - she's such a lard-butt it makes the deskside look like a boxy red Octane ;-) -Austin. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 12:21:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:21:24 -0700 Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256 and 3.5 DS2D Drives Message-ID: <46935DA4.27490.1D1B1D51@cclist.sydex.com> I recently picked up an Amstrad 8256 for its floppy drive (Hint: replace the drive belt with a cheap polyurethane "elastiband" type of "rubber" band. It works great.) That left me with a machine that would either hit the recyclers or that I could keep around. When I looked at the basic box--4MHz Z80, graphics, 512K of RAM...I couldn't bear to toss it out without at least playing with it a bit. I installed a Teac FD235F 720K drive in place of the original one and then contemplated what I was going to do for a boot diskette. None came with the machine. Digging through my collection turned up a 3.5" CP/M 3.0 boot diskette for a PCW 9512 (DisKit), but simply trying to boot from it got me nowhere. (Beep Beep Beep). I found that the checksum of the boot sector identified the target boot machine. My sample checksummed to 0x01, where my documentation said that the PCW 8256 required a checksum of 0xff. Decrementing the "fixup byte" at offset 0x0f in the boot sector by 3 from 0xD1 to 0xCF did the trick. The lowly Joyce now boots CP/M. I've not seen this trick documented, so I thought I'd report it here. The easiest thing would have been to change the boot ROM code, but that appears to be buried in a gate array and not a regular EPROM. I note that the PCW uses the RST 7 vector for interrupts, which conflicts with the breakpoint interrupt used by DDT and ZSID. Fortunately, there appears to be a patch for that. While it might be fun to get the PCW to run MP/M II, my interest has waned a bit, so the thing will now go back onto the shelf. Without a regular printer or serial port, an anemic PSU and a horrible keyboard, it's going to be of limited utility anyway--for now. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 12:26:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:26:56 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707101530.LAA16989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com>, , <200707101530.LAA16989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46935EF0.31489.1D202F47@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2007 at 11:25, der Mouse wrote: > But you get only tiny on times. Add another resistor and use a larger cap > and you can stretch the on time - indeed, with a bit of care you should be > able to get pretty much any duty cycle and frequency. Well, any frequency limited by the ionization time of the gas at any rate. IIRC, that's something like 20KHz. If you want to use a neon bulb (or a gas triode) as a sawtooth oscillator (one of the more useful aspects of a relaxation oscillator), you can improve the linearity of the charge ramp by using a very high 500vdc or more) supply voltage and a large series resistor. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jul 10 12:24:43 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4693BC1B.2030503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4693BC1B.2030503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200707101729.NAA18011@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I think the problem is computer design rather than the chip design -- I'm inclined to agree. I'd actually like to see a clockless machine, one where the whole machine is one big asynchronous oscillator, with nothing ever stalling waiting for a clock pulse. I suspect the reason it hasn't been done is that it's harder for humans to chunk the design into understandable pieces that way. But if computer assist for design ever gets good enough to design a CPU that a human doesn't have to understand, we'll see speeds take off in a way that makes Moore's law look sick. But marketroids will no longer have clock rates to quote. Awgee. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 10 12:32:29 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:32:29 -0400 Subject: Need Data Sheet In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <200707101332.29763.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 09 July 2007 20:15, Billy Pettit wrote: > I recently came across a stock of what seems to be 16 bit wide memory > chips. But I'm getting nowhere trying to find a data sheet. Can anybody > help out? > > > > The parts are UM61M512K-15, 32 pins DIP. The logo is round, world shaped > with 3 vertical and 3 horizontal lines. Date codes are 95 and 96. Perhaps this might help for the logo: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/logos/semiconductorlogos.html ? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 12:47:41 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:47:41 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46935EF0.31489.1D202F47@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> <200707101530.LAA16989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46935EF0.31489.1D202F47@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > If you want to use a neon bulb (or a gas triode) as a sawtooth > oscillator (one of the more useful aspects of a relaxation > oscillator), you can improve the linearity of the charge ramp by > using a very high 500vdc or more) supply voltage and a large series > resistor. I have a number of new RCA 884 and 885 tubes for just this purpose, if anyone needs them. I want to get rid of them, as they are really slow movers. I may also have DuMont 6Q5Gs new. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 12:50:52 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:50:52 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707101729.NAA18011@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4693BC1B.2030503@jetnet.ab.ca> <200707101729.NAA18011@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > I'd actually like to see a clockless machine, one where the whole > machine is one big asynchronous oscillator, with nothing ever stalling > waiting for a clock pulse. Async machines have been done (PDP-6 and KA10, for example). > I suspect the reason it hasn't been done is that it's harder for humans > to chunk the design into understandable pieces that way. But if > computer assist for design ever gets good enough to design a CPU that a > human doesn't have to understand, we'll see speeds take off in a way > that makes Moore's law look sick. The problem with clockless machines is that they are extremely hard to design for speed, and are prone to be glitchy and unreliable. -- Will From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Jul 10 12:53:09 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:53:09 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707101729.NAA18011@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4693BC1B.2030503@jetnet.ab.ca> <200707101729.NAA18011@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4693C785.5060707@bluewin.ch> der Mouse wrote: >> I think the problem is computer design rather than the chip design -- > > > I'd actually like to see a clockless machine, one where the whole > machine is one big asynchronous oscillator, with nothing ever stalling > waiting for a clock pulse. You don't have to wait : you can get clockless 32-bit ARM's today. They are slower, not faster, but are extremely low power. They are slower because each datatransfer needs handshaking CAD tools to assist in this kind of design do exists. Jos From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 10 12:54:19 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:54:19 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707101530.LAA16989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> <200707101530.LAA16989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200707101354.19771.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 10 July 2007, der Mouse wrote: > > It's an oscillator built around a capacitor and something with a > > breakdown voltage, a neon lamp for example. > > With a breakdown voltage, a (lower) extinction voltage, and such that > breakdown does not harm it (in contrast to, say, a reverse-biased > silicon diode, which would likely fry in such a circuit). There's no reason that you can't use a reverse-biased Si diode at its breakdown (avalanche) voltage, as long as you kept the current to a sane level (not a whole lot more than the current rating of the diode, that is). That's basically what a Zener diode is, anyways, just a silicon diode with a precise breakdown voltage. The main problem would be that a reverse-biased diode doesn't have the same characteristics as a neon bulb... once you're back below the avalanche voltage, it'll stop conducting in the reverse direction. If you wanted to use something that was made of silicon, I'd suggest using an SCR to do this. Use a zener or reverse-biased diode to set the "turn on" voltage, and it'll turn itself off once the voltage gets low enough across it. Wow, I'm actually applying some of that "electrical engineering" stuff I was taught in my undergraduate career. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Jul 10 12:57:42 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:57:42 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs : dutch design ca 1973 ? In-Reply-To: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <468E3DCB.4080204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4693C896.4050900@bluewin.ch> I know for a fact that I once saw a small Dutch booklet, ca. 1973, describing a diy TTL computer . Memory was a 1k Words Philips core memory module. If anybody has a pointer to this I would be pleased to have it ! Jos From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 13:04:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:04:25 -0700 Subject: Need Data Sheet In-Reply-To: <200707101332.29763.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <200707101332.29763.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <469367B9.27536.1D427F14@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2007 at 13:32, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Perhaps this might help for the logo: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/logos/semiconductorlogos.html Actually, the part number is the giveaway--UMC is the manufacturer. (UMxxxxx) Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 10 13:11:56 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:11:56 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> <200707101530.LAA16989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46935EF0.31489.1D202F47@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4693CBEC.4060806@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > I have a number of new RCA 884 and 885 tubes for just this purpose, if > anyone needs them. I want to get rid of them, as they are really slow > movers. I guess they are. Looks at datasheet for the 884 dated - Jan 4,1945. But the cat's meow back then for use in low cost ( at the time ) scopes and other such equipment. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 10 13:24:03 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:24:03 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4693BC1B.2030503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4693BC1B.2030503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jul 10, 2007, at 1:04 PM, woodelf wrote: > Does this mean that if we reduce the number of transistors > we can go faster? Let see a PDP 8/Z(1) with current technology > would be? :) I think the problem is computer design rather > than the chip design -- You don't have random access memory > any more & salesmen push clock speed rather than a usefull > measure of computing power. Nah, even Intel has abandoned the "more megga-hurts!" marketing scheme. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 10 14:04:00 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:04:00 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... Message-ID: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> My excitement over getting my MODCOMP II running in June (reference post attached) - was somewhat "premature". The MODCOMP II performed well - and then started having intermittent failures. I observed that many of the failures seemed to be the result of badly seated chips. I thought that a bit strange, since I had checked them all as part of the restoration process. As time went on, the system became even more dysfunctional - until it wouldn't run even the most rudimentary programs. I checked with a former MODCOMP hardware support person - and he asked: "What brand were the failing chips you've found so far?". I hadn't even thought about that. He said "Let me know after you check - and I wouldn't be surprised if they were all TI (Texas Instruments)". I did check - and virtually 100% were TI chips. Factoid: Many TI chips produced during 1975-77 period had very thin "legs" and poor tinning. When they were wave soldered, the solder offered them protection. However, when they were socketed (as in the MODCOMP) they had very little protection from the environment. They would rust and eventually fail. He suggested that I just replace all the TI chips in the MODCOMP if I wanted a reliable system. I decided that was too "radical". So armed with a logic analyzer and scope, I began to debug the MODCOMP - one chip at a time. After finding 20 or 30 bugs - ALL of which were TI chips - I finally "relented". I have now replaced about one hundred and fifty TI chips in the Modcomp's CPU and memory planes. I'm about 3/4 of the way through the process - and the MODCOMP is becoming very reliable. It will run basic memory diagnostics by the hour without failure. Final thoughts: The "badly manufactured" TI chips turned out to be a lot more fragile than I had originally supposed. When I removed many of them from their socket, their legs would simply fall off. It wasn't unusual to have two or three legs fall off one chip! Some were incredibly rusty over their entire surface - which wasn't at all obvious looking at them from the top. The MODCOMP sockets were "good news - bad news". Bad, because the sockets exacerbated the TI chip manufacturing issue - and good, because they made the chips easier to replace! Regards, Lyle ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... Date: Monday 04 June 2007 21:06 From: Lyle Bickley To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" A number of you probably remember me "announcing" in Jan, 2007 that I had rescued a MODCOMP II/12 from a lab here in Silicon Valley. The link for that is below (sorry, it's slow - the pictures are large). http://bickleywest.com/modcomp.htm After a lot of work cleaning up both the CPU and I/O chassis I began checking out the system. It turned out that the I/O chassis was in pretty bad shape. I went back to the lab facility where I found the MODCOMP II - looked through several more buildings - and found another lone MODCOMP II I/O chassis. I went through the "salvage" process again - and finally picked it up about a month ago. It was in a lot better shape than the original I/O unit. And the really great news - it was an identical configuration to my original I/O chassis. After cleaning it up, doing all the usual capacitor, power supply checking - I powered it up - and everything "looked" good - and no bad "cooking" smells ;-) I cabled up the CPU and I/O unit, powered 'em up - and to my amazement the front panel controls seemed to work O.K. I then did the usual hand memory tests - and core memory worked O.K. every location I tested. I then wrote a bunch of small diagnostics (in machine code) - and found that I/O was not easy to code - but I did enough to check that the console in/out ports worked O.K. Today I loaded diagnostic monitors, and diags - and most of the system - including I/O is working! The really good news is that all 64K (words) of core memory passed the long manufacturing memory diagnostic - which even tests for "hot cores" failing. It's been months in the making this critter come alive - but it sure feels great when the diagnostics tell you that you are on the right track :-) Cheers, Lyle ------------------------------------------------------- -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 14:36:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:36:16 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com>, <46935EF0.31489.1D202F47@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46937D40.22756.1D969699@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2007 at 13:47, William Donzelli wrote: > I have a number of new RCA 884 and 885 tubes for just this purpose, if > anyone needs them. I want to get rid of them, as they are really slow > movers. I may also have DuMont 6Q5Gs new. There were a fair number of early scopes that used the 884/885 (aren't they the same? Seems that I recall one labeled 884/885) for sweep generation, RCA among them. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 10 14:44:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:44:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need Data Sheet In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> from "Billy Pettit" at Jul 9, 7 05:15:33 pm Message-ID: > > I recently came across a stock of what seems to be 16 bit wide memory = > chips. > But I'm getting nowhere trying to find a data sheet. Can anybody help = > out? > > =20 > > The parts are UM61M512K-15, 32 pins DIP. The logo is round, world = I doubt they're 16 bits wide. The '512' in the part number would suggest 512KBits, or 32K 16 bit words. Now, unless I am missing something, a 32K-location RAM would need 15 address lines. Along with 16 data lines, a write-enable, a chip select line, power and ground. That's over 32 pins. My guess is that they're 64K*8 bits. Thw logo sounds like UMC, who made a lot of chips that ended up in PCs. I have their microprocessor+peripherals databook from about 1990, but nothing on their RAMs. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 10 14:57:49 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:57:49 -0400 Subject: VCF/Midwest 3.0 - this weekend - July 14/15! Message-ID: <200707101557.49474.pat@computer-refuge.org> There's just a few more days left until this year's Vintage Computer Festival / Midwest. So, come and see all of our excellent exhibits put on by computer collector hobbyists, listen to our speakers talking about vintage computer topics, and relish in the nostalgia by buying/selling/trading your own old computer gear at the VCF Marketplace at the event! VCF/Midwest 3.0 will be July 14-15, at Purdue University's Stewart center. Speakers will run from 11a to 2p each day, and exhibits and the marketplace will be open from 2p to 6p. Admission is $5 per day for access to the whole event, and kids 17 and under get in for free. For more details, and to sign up as a last-minute exhbitor or vendor, please see the official VCF/Midwest 3.0 website at: http://www.vintage.org/2007/midwest/index.php If you have any questions, feel free to send me a message at: vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. This year's VCF/Midwest is being sponsored by the Rosen Center for Advanced Computing at Purdue University - http://www.rcac.purdue.edu Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 14:58:23 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:58:23 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46937D40.22756.1D969699@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> <46935EF0.31489.1D202F47@cclist.sydex.com> <46937D40.22756.1D969699@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > There were a fair number of early scopes that used the 884/885 > (aren't they the same? Seems that I recall one labeled 884/885) for > sweep generation, RCA among them. No, they are not the same tube. The basing is different. 884s are octal, 885s are UY. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 10 14:18:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:18:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jul 9, 7 03:54:50 pm Message-ID: > Relaxation oscillator? The one I was thinking of -- the neon bulb blinker -- is this circuit R o----------/\/\/------------+--------------+ | | | --- --- O --- C Neon Bulb | O (e.g. NE2) | --- | | o---------------------------+--------------+ The circuit depends on the fact that a neon requrires a higher voltage to strike than appears avross it once it's struck. R is chosen so that a glow discharge cannot be maintained in the neon with the current available from the supply through R alone. Waht happens is that C charges from the supply through R. When the voltage across C reaches the striking voltage of the neon, the latter strikes and discharges C until the votlage across the neon is less than the maintaining voltage. At this point the neon goes out, C starts to charge up again. This was probably the first circuit I ever built, before I went to school. I know it was before I'd learnt to solder, I built it using those 'chocolate block' terminal strips. I thin R was 1M, C was about 0.1uF. The DC supply was a 90V dry battery. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 15:08:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:08:19 -0500 Subject: Need Data Sheet In-Reply-To: <46927E0A.25176.19B1AE89@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <745224.64133.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46927E0A.25176.19B1AE89@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > OTOH, there's a nice 16bit SRAM in some modems, such as the Hayes > 28.8K external models. In an 0.300" wide DIP too. Oooh... that could be fun to play with. I didn't figure that a cache SRAM was anything other than 4-bits wide (386/486 era) or 8-bits wide (486/Pentium era), especially since I've used a bog standard cache RAM on an 1802, but knowing there really are 16-bit-wide SRAMs could be fun for, say, a 68000-based board, or even throwing away 4 bits and using it as a 12-bit-wide single part for a PDP-8. Any idea what the part number might be for that RAM chip? Vendor? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 16:01:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:01:25 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com>, <46937D40.22756.1D969699@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46939135.7676.1DE48B7F@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2007 at 15:58, William Donzelli wrote: > > There were a fair number of early scopes that used the 884/885 > > (aren't they the same? Seems that I recall one labeled 884/885) for > > sweep generation, RCA among them. > > No, they are not the same tube. The basing is different. 884s are > octal, 885s are UY. Yup, you're right--same electrically but for heater (884: 6.3v; 885: 2.5v) and basing. The circuit I have shows an 885 driving a 6C6 horizontal amplifier, which in turn drives the horizontal deflection on a 2501A3 CRT. Strange when you consider that there's a separate 2.5v winding on the transformer for only the 885 heater. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 16:02:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:02:10 -0500 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 7/10/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Relaxation oscillator? > It's an oscillator built around a capacitor and something with a > breakdown voltage, a neon lamp for example. The capacitor charges > slowly through a resistor at a calculable rate, and then (partially) > discharges through the neon lamp quickly when its ionization > threshold is reached and it conducts...then the cycle repeats. > What's neat about it is > that the blinking light is actually an active part of the oscillator, > rather than just an indicator that displays the oscillator's state. When I was a kid, my dad had a blinkenlights box on the bookshelf he built in college (somewhere between about 1958 and 1964) - it was a bakelite box, about 6"x9"x3", with a 3x3 grid of neon bulbs sticking out the front, and some flying-lead-mounted components on the inside, I presume nine caps and nine resistors, all of varying values, and an old snap-end radio battery (B battery?) You snapped a battery in, then the lights would blink in a random and pleasing fashion. I doubt he still has the box (I last remember it in the mid-1970s), but I wouldn't know where you could find a battery these days that could light a neon bulb - unless you wanted to gang a bunch of 9V batteries together, or make run a DC-DC converter off of some smaller value. Not a complicated circuit, but fascinating to a 7 year old. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 16:03:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:03:57 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... In-Reply-To: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <469391CD.5346.1DE6DB8F@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2007 at 12:04, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> So armed with a logic analyzer and scope, I began to debug the MODCOMP - one > chip at a time. After finding 20 or 30 bugs - ALL of which were TI chips - I > finally "relented". > > I have now replaced about one hundred and fifty TI chips in the Modcomp's CPU > and memory planes. I'm about 3/4 of the way through the process - and the > MODCOMP is becoming very reliable. It will run basic memory diagnostics by > the hour without failure. Why not simply re-tin the pins on the TI chips? Shouldn't be too bad if you've got a solder pot. Just wondering... Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 10 17:11:21 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:11:21 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... In-Reply-To: <469391CD.5346.1DE6DB8F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <469391CD.5346.1DE6DB8F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707101511.22152.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 10 July 2007 14:03, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Jul 2007 at 12:04, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> So armed with a logic analyzer and scope, I began to debug the > > MODCOMP - one > > > chip at a time. After finding 20 or 30 bugs - ALL of which were TI chips > > - I finally "relented". > > > > I have now replaced about one hundred and fifty TI chips in the Modcomp's > > CPU and memory planes. I'm about 3/4 of the way through the process - and > > the MODCOMP is becoming very reliable. It will run basic memory > > diagnostics by the hour without failure. > > Why not simply re-tin the pins on the TI chips? Shouldn't be too bad The chips are mechanically very fragile. I'd rather replace them than rely on solder to keep them together ;-) Also, since so many have pins break off when they are removed from their sockets, it wouldn't be a worthwhile exercise... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 18:03:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:03:27 -0700 Subject: Need Data Sheet In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <46927E0A.25176.19B1AE89@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4693ADCF.14138.1E54446D@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2007 at 15:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > OTOH, there's a nice 16bit SRAM in some modems, such as the Hayes > > 28.8K external models. In an 0.300" wide DIP too. > > Oooh... that could be fun to play with. I didn't figure that a cache > SRAM was anything other than 4-bits wide (386/486 era) or 8-bits wide > (486/Pentium era), especially since I've used a bog standard cache RAM > on an 1802, but knowing there really are 16-bit-wide SRAMs could be > fun for, say, a 68000-based board, or even throwing away 4 bits and > using it as a 12-bit-wide single part for a PDP-8. There are lots of 16-bit SRAMs, but (my mistake) not in a DIP style. The Alliance AS7C1026 for instance gives you 64Kx16 bits in a 44 pin TSOP SOJ--as fast as 10 nsec. The DIPs seem to be restricted to 8 bit wide memories, such as the Alliance AS7C1024 (128Kx8 in 32 pins 0.300 SOJ DIP found in the Zoom 56K modem). Just too many pins, I guess when the width goes to 16. But why stop with 64Kx16 SRAM? There's the Maxwell 89C1632 512Kx32bit SRAM in a 68 pin QFP... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 10 18:21:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Victor 9000/Sirius 1 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <46905892.4080102@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <71918.94357.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > I have a Victor 9000 I'm restoring here, and I have > a few questions: > 1. Where do the two plugs for the 5 1/4 drive heads > connect? This system > has the Universal bios, a 10MB winchester HDD with > DOS 3.1x and the > later 1.44MB GCR/MFM floppy installed, but I can > only seem to get one of > the drive heads working (using catweasel on PC to > dump a 'formatted' > disk afterwards results in clear data spikes on one > side and the other > side blank, and format.exe won't format disks > properly unless given the > /1 1-sides flag) > 2. The victor 9000 does NOT say anything when I turn > it on. I know the > Sirius 1 did, but I'm not sure the Victor does. Is > this normal, or does > the system need the HC-55564 delta modulation chip > replaced? > 3. Does anyone have a schematic or service manual > for the victor > 9000/sirius 1 anywhere? I think I have a service manual *xeroxed* for the Vic9K, but it's in another state, as is my brain half the time. It won't be in my hands in all likelihood for 4-8 weeks. Sorry, I know that's a long time to wait, but that's all I *can't* do for ya now. > I also discovered that both of the victor keyboards > I have need > re-foaming between the contact discs and key > plungers, which is gonna be > a whole bunch of fun to do. They also both > need new snap-tabs > on them as both of the tabs have the tooth broken > off (though they work > fine other than having to hit keys really hard and > the cord occasionally > falling out of the computer) A thorough cleaning is in order before you replace all that. I bathe my keyboards in a 10-15% solution of ammonia and water. I haven't yet disassembled a V9K keyboard, but I imagine it's typical as far as keyboards go. Remove the plastic and toss it in. If you need more details, I'll provide. It works well. > P.S. Does anyone have dumps of the older BIOSes for > the system? The > universal one is the 'last' one of at least three I > know existed. More > than one version of the universal one may exist. The > one I have is > labeled 'V9000 UNIV. FE F3F7 13DB' and 'V9000 UNIV. > FF F3F7 39FE' with > respective crc32s of 25C7A59F and 496C7467 for each > ROM. The sum16s > match the last part of the labels, i.e. 13DB and > 39FE. I have a Vicki in my present possession and 2 V9Ks at the other location. I don't have a working boot disk unfortunately. I'm assuming the drives in the Vicki are the same as the V9K's, so if you can provide one, I'll provide you with whatever it has. I was told my roms are *older*. That's the extent of what I know. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 10 19:04:42 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 - hey, they wrote a book! In-Reply-To: <468FD0C9.1090901@netscape.net> Message-ID: <913386.38205.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> If I can inject my 2 cents into the discussion, first off I don't think anyone should be put off from buying the book, it's probably a worthwhile read, despite any possible historical discrepancies. I'm sure there's a thing or 2 that can be learned from it. I personally haven't made a point of purchasing vintage computing reading material (generally, but I have bought at least one book on the origins of the internet). You can only spread funds so thin sometimes... Jim...OI you've probably been subscribing to this list longer then me (2+ years), and in fact I'm sure of it. You must have witnessed a conversation or two. I can't see the reason for all the amazement/frustration. It happens all the time frankly. *You* begin a thread, and someone takes it in an entirely different direction, or just accentuates a minor point. AND IT LAST FOR 9 1/2 WEEKS!!! So get used to it :). And frankly, Theresa's post was effective in pressing a few buttons. I wish her and her hubby the best w/regards to the book, but you can't state stuff like that on a forum like this and expect it not to be challenged. I may be dim, but I'm not sure I understand the difference between a computer and an information appliance in Allison's reply (nor for that matter the reference to the Gutenberg Bible). The earliest analog computers were responsible for information processing/delivery (I'm sure this goes w/o saying - computers always are, as abstract as the processing may seem), though I guess it depends on how you define "information" (in that case missile trajectories or what have you). A printing press' sole purpose is to disseminate information, so comparing a *computer* to it is probably valid. Maybe those w/more of an historical and/or engineering perspective can enlighten me. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 20:47:36 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:47:36 -0500 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term Message-ID: <51ea77730707101847sdabb678k3e88563207ddcabb@mail.gmail.com> I've just picked up an old Burroughs terminal, model# appears to be MT-985, and I'm having trouble finding documentation for it. It came with a manual for the ET-1100 model which provides some clues, but the key sequences to get into the setup for baud rate, etc appear to be different. Anyone have any experience with these? It's a cute little terminal and the keyboard has a key lock on it - never seen that before. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 20:57:05 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:57:05 -0400 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707101847sdabb678k3e88563207ddcabb@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730707101847sdabb678k3e88563207ddcabb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I've just picked up an old Burroughs terminal, model# appears to be > MT-985, and I'm having trouble finding documentation for it. Being Burroughs, it may be VERY WEIRD. Sort of somewhere between smart (IBM) and dumb (DEC). It will probably only want to talk to a Burroughs. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 10 21:06:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:06:34 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <851758B4-6F29-4118-80BA-16203603217C@neurotica.com> On Jul 10, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> It's an oscillator built around a capacitor and something with a >> breakdown voltage, a neon lamp for example. The capacitor charges >> slowly through a resistor at a calculable rate, and then (partially) >> discharges through the neon lamp quickly when its ionization >> threshold is reached and it conducts...then the cycle repeats. >> What's neat about it is >> that the blinking light is actually an active part of the oscillator, >> rather than just an indicator that displays the oscillator's state. > > When I was a kid, my dad had a blinkenlights box on the bookshelf he > built in college (somewhere between about 1958 and 1964) - it was a > bakelite box, about 6"x9"x3", with a 3x3 grid of neon bulbs sticking > out the front, and some flying-lead-mounted components on the inside, > I presume nine caps and nine resistors, all of varying values, and an > old snap-end radio battery (B battery?) You snapped a battery in, > then the lights would blink in a random and pleasing fashion. Fun!! > I doubt he still has the box (I last remember it in the mid-1970s), > but I wouldn't know where you could find a battery these days that > could light a neon bulb - unless you wanted to gang a bunch of 9V > batteries together, or make run a DC-DC converter off of some smaller > value. I have an MC34063-based 12VDC->170VDC step-up regulator design that I've used to power a few Nixie tube projects. It could easily be tweaked down to the ~90V required to drive something like that, and would probably run fine from 9V. It can be built on a piece of perfboard about the size of a postage stamp. > Not a complicated circuit, but fascinating to a 7 year old. And just plain neat to everyone else. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 21:14:57 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:14:57 -0500 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730707101847sdabb678k3e88563207ddcabb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com> On 7/10/07, William Donzelli wrote: > Being Burroughs, it may be VERY WEIRD. Sort of somewhere between smart > (IBM) and dumb (DEC). It will probably only want to talk to a > Burroughs. Hey, I like weird! But yeah...I'm getting the impression from the manual this is not an ordinary serial term (though it does have an EIA interface.) I don't think it emulates anything, except maybe other Burroughs terms. From onymouse at garlic.com Tue Jul 10 08:06:42 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:06:42 -0700 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: References: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> <46923678.40306@garlic.com> Message-ID: <46938462.1030804@garlic.com> Peter C. Wallace wrote: [snip] > > 300 C is way above the melting point of even RoHS compliant solder, if > you temperature cycled a standard PCB to that temperature, "wrinkles" > would be the least of your troubles... > > feh. You're right. That's the ambient temp just for that cabinet. With the clamp sinking the heat etc., the temp was actually closer to 200, maybe 250 on a good day. Only got above 300 when the exhaust fans stopped working, then the boards would brown real nice and the traces would fall off. == jd Major Premise: Sixty men can do a piece of work sixty times as quickly as one man. Minor Premise: One man can dig a posthole in sixty seconds. Conclusion: Sixty men can dig a posthole in one second. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From onymouse at garlic.com Tue Jul 10 07:59:03 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 05:59:03 -0700 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: References: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> <46923678.40306@garlic.com> Message-ID: <46938297.6060708@garlic.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> The expansion coefficients may be have a relatively small delta but it >> is enough >> given enough time, enough temp cycling and enough of a temp range. > > Why would the time and number of cycles be of concern? The materials > are going to expand so much, then contract right back where they > started. If they shrank (maybe due to a cold cycle), I can see some > cases with some stretching of the copper that would permanently change > the dimensions (and even there - the copper may never be stretched > into the plastic area). With a heating cycle, any deformations are > going to be pulled right out when the contractions occur due to > cooling. And if there is a wrinkle, any additional deformations to the > metal from cycling are going to be at that wrinkle, as the copper has > been weakened at that point. There will be no "incentive" for the > copper to wrinkle elsewhere. And how many deep (as in solder machine > temperature) cycles? I hope only one, or all your parts are going to > be at the bottom of the chassis. > > Thermal expansion of materials is generally not a cumulative property. > > And with some "back of the napkin" calculations, running an inch long > copper trace thru a solder machine is going to make it expand less > that five thousandths more than the substrate - that's not much. > Probably not even enough for a single wrinkle. > > -- How does the copper stick to the substrate? Are you taking that into account? == jd [Prime Minister Joseph] Chamberlain loves the working man -- he loves to see him work. -- Winston Churchill From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 22:28:34 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:28:34 -0400 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: <46938297.6060708@garlic.com> References: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> <46923678.40306@garlic.com> <46938297.6060708@garlic.com> Message-ID: > How does the copper stick to the substrate? > > Are you taking that into account? Yes. If anything, it will actually help any wrinkle problem, as it will allow the tiniest amount of slop. Like the BGAs, the glue can act as a continuous moment arm. Traces falling off due to excessive heat is a different issue, and one I have no argument with. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 10 22:36:59 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:36:59 -0600 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:14:57 -0500. <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > Hey, I like weird! But yeah...I'm getting the impression from the > manual this is not an ordinary serial term (though it does have an EIA > interface.) I don't think it emulates anything, except maybe other > Burroughs terms. Is it a printing or CRT terminal? Can you post a link with some pix? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 23:03:35 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:03:35 -0500 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27@mail.gmail.com> On 7/10/07, Richard wrote: > > Is it a printing or CRT terminal? Can you post a link with some pix? Sorry, it's a CRT. Here's a mediocre pic I just shot: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/774471392/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 23:10:34 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:10:34 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... In-Reply-To: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: >From: Lyle Bickley ---snip--- > >Factoid: Many TI chips produced during 1975-77 period had very thin "legs" >and >poor tinning. When they were wave soldered, the solder offered them >protection. However, when they were socketed (as in the MODCOMP) they had >very little protection from the environment. They would rust and eventually >fail. > ---snip--- The problem was that the outside was the silver plating ( the blackened color is the oxidized silver ) and the material inside would react electrolytically and rot out with even the slightest dampness. I've seen them where the only material left was the plating. The slightest touch and the leg would just be gone :\ Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 23:23:42 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:23:42 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707101354.19771.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: >From: Patrick Finnegan > >On Tuesday 10 July 2007, der Mouse wrote: > > > It's an oscillator built around a capacitor and something with a > > > breakdown voltage, a neon lamp for example. > > > > With a breakdown voltage, a (lower) extinction voltage, and such that > > breakdown does not harm it (in contrast to, say, a reverse-biased > > silicon diode, which would likely fry in such a circuit). > > >There's no reason that you can't use a reverse-biased Si diode at its >breakdown (avalanche) voltage, as long as you kept the current to a >sane level (not a whole lot more than the current rating of the diode, >that is). > >That's basically what a Zener diode is, anyways, just a silicon diode >with a precise breakdown voltage. > >The main problem would be that a reverse-biased diode doesn't have the >same characteristics as a neon bulb... once you're back below the >avalanche voltage, it'll stop conducting in the reverse direction. > > The higher voltage zeners have a slight negative resistance region. The cross over point between the knee breakdown and the avalanche is around 7 volts. We used to use 7.2 volt zeners as white noise genrators because these had a mixture of knee and avalanche type breakdown. If bias with a large limiting resistor and 9 volts, it would produce niece white noise to align wide bandpass amplifiers. One diode type could be used that is relatively easy to find and that is a diac. These should make a nice oscillator. One just has to have a high enough resistance to drop below the on current. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 23:31:14 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:31:14 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46935EF0.31489.1D202F47@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 10 Jul 2007 at 11:25, der Mouse wrote: > > > But you get only tiny on times. Add another resistor and use a larger >cap > > and you can stretch the on time - indeed, with a bit of care you should >be > > able to get pretty much any duty cycle and frequency. > >Well, any frequency limited by the ionization time of the gas at any >rate. IIRC, that's something like 20KHz. > >If you want to use a neon bulb (or a gas triode) as a sawtooth >oscillator (one of the more useful aspects of a relaxation >oscillator), you can improve the linearity of the charge ramp by >using a very high 500vdc or more) supply voltage and a large series >resistor. > You could also put a current source instead of a resistor. This can be made with either a transistor and s few resistors and diode or a jfet. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com From wizard at voyager.net Tue Jul 10 23:32:11 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:32:11 -0400 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1184128331.3139.36.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 23:03 -0500, Jason T wrote: > On 7/10/07, Richard wrote: > > > > Is it a printing or CRT terminal? Can you post a link with some pix? > > Sorry, it's a CRT. Here's a mediocre pic I just shot: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/774471392/ Hey, is that a JX-8P in the background? Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 23:42:06 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:42:06 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: >From: woodelf > >dwight elvey wrote: >>Right now, we are at the power density limits for uP's. We can >>build smaller ones and put more circuits on a chip but we've >>hit the limits of power density. We get smaller improvements >>from lower K insulation on wiring but power is now the wall. >>Dwight > >Does this mean that if we reduce the number of transistors >we can go faster? Let see a PDP 8/Z(1) with current technology >would be? :) I think the problem is computer design rather >than the chip design -- You don't have random access memory >any more & salesmen push clock speed rather than a usefull >measure of computing power. > No, it means that you need to be more clever with the transistors that are there. The architectures of today's CPU's are doing several times as much per clock cycle than your PDP8 did. The problem is that they are also running out of tricks in a single CPU. That is why your seeing multi processors becoming more popular. I'm not sure where the future methods will go but they are still holding to Moore's law, just not with increased clock speed as the driving force any more. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!? http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2 From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 23:48:47 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:48:47 -0500 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: <1184128331.3139.36.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27@mail.gmail.com> <1184128331.3139.36.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <51ea77730707102148w1b7b6691ucfa11b1525729b8d@mail.gmail.com> On 7/10/07, Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 23:03 -0500, Jason T wrote: > > Hey, is that a JX-8P in the background? Good eye - it's a JX-3P. Currently non-functional, like too many other devices around here :) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 00:11:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:11:41 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <46935EF0.31489.1D202F47@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4694041D.7448.2A36C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2007 at 21:31, dwight elvey wrote: > You could also put a current source instead of a resistor. > This can be made with either a transistor and s few resistors > and diode or a jfet. Uh, Dwight, we're talking "vintage" gas triodes here. If I had a transistor of any sort, why would I be messing with neons or thermionic gas triodes? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 11 00:48:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:48:48 -0600 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:03:35 -0500. <51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > On 7/10/07, Richard wrote: > > > > Is it a printing or CRT terminal? Can you post a link with some pix? > > Sorry, it's a CRT. Here's a mediocre pic I just shot: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/774471392/ Looks pretty cool! Any idea of manufacturing date? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jul 11 01:05:00 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:05:00 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200707102305.01147.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 10 July 2007 21:10, dwight elvey wrote: > >From: Lyle Bickley > > ---snip--- > > >Factoid: Many TI chips produced during 1975-77 period had very thin "legs" > >and > >poor tinning. When they were wave soldered, the solder offered them > >protection. However, when they were socketed (as in the MODCOMP) they had > >very little protection from the environment. They would rust and > > eventually fail. > > ---snip--- > > The problem was that the outside was the silver plating ( the blackened > color is the > oxidized silver ) and the material inside would react electrolytically and > rot out > with even the slightest dampness. I've seen them where the only material > left was the plating. The slightest touch and the leg would just be gone :\ > Dwight These didn't do the "silver turns black as in oxidation or sulfide" trick (I've seen that before). These legs were were simply rusty (as in iron oxide) from top to bottom. The effect was similar, however. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 10 12:47:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:47:25 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <0JKZ00F195BLMEX3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > From: woodelf > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:04:27 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >dwight elvey wrote: >> Right now, we are at the power density limits for uP's. We can >> build smaller ones and put more circuits on a chip but we've >> hit the limits of power density. We get smaller improvements >> from lower K insulation on wiring but power is now the wall. >> Dwight > >Does this mean that if we reduce the number of transistors >we can go faster? Let see a PDP 8/Z(1) with current technology >would be? :) I think the problem is computer design rather >than the chip design -- You don't have random access memory >any more & salesmen push clock speed rather than a usefull >measure of computing power. > >(1) Zippy - 1000x faster the a PDP 8/E. >Now back to thinking about how to build a homebrew CPU... >Front panel or no Front panel. > The pdp8 limitation back then was not the CPU but the fact that it's timing was interlocked with the core. Take core out of the timing picture with fast Sram and crank it up then things like bus timing and ripple carry are a factor. So a turbo PDP-8 is achieveable and if it were all on a chip your "8/Z" would be scary fast with current tech. However if you reduce the number of transistors as MIPS and other RISC machines early on did your dependent on raw speed at the die level and the cycle repeats. That is you end up pushing for ever higher speeds to make up for simplicity and those transistors left are hitting the speed/power wall. Then of course you can try to push that by making the machine wider. The process does the lather, rinse and repeat with new process slipping in to help out but we are approaching the sub atomic level were transistors perform badly as there are not enough molecules in them! So we go back and add more parallel cpus on the same die and that means more transistors and we go around again. Allison From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Jul 10 13:45:11 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:45:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> References: <83D918A5-679C-4C94-8563-0ABD41BBD10E@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 9, 7 06:45:52 pm" <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <41263.217.225.98.133.1184093111.squirrel@217.225.98.133> Cameron Kaiser said: >> > You're making me feel very old. When I was a kid, I used to make a >> > neon >> > bulb blink using one resistor and one capacitor. >> >> Relaxation oscillators are fun. I like the UJT version as well, >> though UJTs are getting harder to find than they once were. I have >> two or three 2N2646 UJTs left. A quick look here at a few distributors here lists at least old stock availability, at a wide price range. Problem is IMHO that such old parts are not ROHS conforming; thus they are delisted, e.g. at Digikey. Farnell still offers them, at an obscene price, Reichelt in Germany here has a fair price. But UJTs are mainly one-trick ponys which is why they are primarily found in basic courses in electronics :-) They had their time in the 60s and 70s. > Relaxation oscillator? > > Tony may feel very old, but I'm just feeling very dumb. ;) Now that is exactly the work principle that Tony has described with his neon sawtooth oscillator: a resistor charges a capacitor in series. The load to this voltage divider is the UJT or the neon bulb which have a characteristics with a negative resistance at some point - once some peak voltage is reached resistance will drop very fast and will discharge the cap. Result is the sawtooth wave. There are other circuits with a comparable characteristic, like the PUT which is basically a SCR with an anode gate - you can make one with _parallel_ coupled PNP and NPN transistors. Or with a bit more effort you can utilize the same effect with a NIC or a gyrator. -- Dr.-Ing. Holger Veit IT-Management Fraunhofer IAIS Institut f?r Intelligente Analyse- und Informationssysteme Schloss Birlinghoven D-53757 Sankt Augustin e-mail: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tel. +49 2241 14 2448 Fax. +49 2241 14 2342 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 10 15:51:01 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:51:01 -0400 Subject: Need Data Sheet Message-ID: <0JKZ00838DTI8ZP7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Need Data Sheet > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:08:19 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 7/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> OTOH, there's a nice 16bit SRAM in some modems, such as the Hayes >> 28.8K external models. In an 0.300" wide DIP too. > >Oooh... that could be fun to play with. I didn't figure that a cache >SRAM was anything other than 4-bits wide (386/486 era) or 8-bits wide >(486/Pentium era), especially since I've used a bog standard cache RAM >on an 1802, but knowing there really are 16-bit-wide SRAMs could be >fun for, say, a 68000-based board, or even throwing away 4 bits and >using it as a 12-bit-wide single part for a PDP-8. > >Any idea what the part number might be for that RAM chip? Vendor? It's a 8bit wide part I have a bag of those and similar parts. FYI they are 15ns and for super fast memory systems as in cache but for fast systems they are the cats meow. > >-ethan From gksloane at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 22:17:06 2007 From: gksloane at hotmail.com (Gary Sloane) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:17:06 -0700 Subject: Intel uScope 820 Message-ID: Did you ever scan the manual for the Intel uScope 820? I have one, and I have the 8080 pod/probe/cable, and the 6K PRO module, but no documentation whatsoever. Whatever you have would be appreciated! If you have a scan of the manual and/or the service manual and can send it to me I'd be very very happy! Gary Sloane SB/US Engineering Inc. _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jul 11 04:04:47 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 06:04:47 -0300 Subject: Need Data Sheet References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C710@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <46927E0A.25176.19B1AE89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4693ADCF.14138.1E54446D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <05b901c7c39b$151e4140$f0fea8c0@alpha> > But why stop with 64Kx16 SRAM? There's the Maxwell 89C1632 > 512Kx32bit SRAM in a 68 pin QFP... Hmm...PC cache SIMMs (old pentium motherboards) has some 68-100 pin QFP cache chips...Maybe worth a look ;o) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 08:40:12 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 06:40:12 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4694041D.7448.2A36C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 10 Jul 2007 at 21:31, dwight elvey wrote: > > > You could also put a current source instead of a resistor. > > This can be made with either a transistor and s few resistors > > and diode or a jfet. > >Uh, Dwight, we're talking "vintage" gas triodes here. If I had a >transistor of any sort, why would I be messing with neons or >thermionic gas triodes? > Hi Chuck Ok, are we allowed to use a vacuum triode? Using high voltage to help linearize the saw tooth seems to be the sledge hammer method. What was it that Tektronics did with tubes to get the nice linear sweep? They did something that used a constant current to charge the capacitor. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Jul 11 09:09:44 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:09:44 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <41263.217.225.98.133.1184093111.squirrel@217.225.98.133> References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> <83D918A5-679C-4C94-8563-0ABD41BBD10E@neurotica.com> <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070711100744.012c6f88@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Holger Veit may have mentioned these words: [[ Keep in mind that the only basic electronics I know I got from Radio Shack books... ;-) ]] > Or with a bit more effort you can utilize the same effect with a NIC Network Interface Card? I'd like to see that... > or a gyrator. Elvis??? :-O I sure wish I knew what those actually were... ;-) Sorry, it's been a crazy Wednesday around here... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jul 11 08:36:57 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:36:57 -0300 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term Message-ID: <01C7C3A7.869F73A0@mandr71> ------------------- Original Message: Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:47:36 -0500 From: "Jason T" Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term I've just picked up an old Burroughs terminal, model# appears to be MT-985, and I'm having trouble finding documentation for it. It came with a manual for the ET-1100 model which provides some clues, but the key sequences to get into the setup for baud rate, etc appear to be different. Anyone have any experience with these? It's a cute little terminal and the keyboard has a key lock on it - never seen that before. ----------------- Reply: Can't help with the MT-985, but if it's anything like its TD700/800 predecessors it probably had various interface options; the TD's could be configured for RS-232/BDI async, sync, IBM bisync or multipoint, and could also have cassette drives, a mag card reader and/or a printer attached. In case anyone has one, I do have tech manuals and some parts for the TD700 & TD800 terminal series. mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 11 10:10:09 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:10:09 -0400 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707102148w1b7b6691ucfa11b1525729b8d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27@mail.gmail.com> <1184128331.3139.36.camel@Darth.Databasics> <51ea77730707102148w1b7b6691ucfa11b1525729b8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jul 11, 2007, at 12:48 AM, Jason T wrote: >> Hey, is that a JX-8P in the background? > > Good eye - it's a JX-3P. Currently non-functional, like too many > other devices around here :) I wonder if schematics for those are floating around. I have a JX-8P in storage; I really should dig it out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jul 11 10:09:25 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:09:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Silent 700 Model 745 service manual In-Reply-To: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: I had posted a request for a service manual for a TI Silent 700 Model 745 terminal, and several other list members were also interested. I finally found one, and Al has made it available on Bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/terminal/984025-9701_743_KSR_745_Portable_Maint_Dec75.pdf Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 10:41:35 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:41:35 -0400 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730707101847sdabb678k3e88563207ddcabb@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Hey, I like weird! But yeah...I'm getting the impression from the > manual this is not an ordinary serial term (though it does have an EIA > interface.) I don't think it emulates anything, except maybe other > Burroughs terms. Now that i see the pictures, I may have one of those that came with that old B1955 some time back. Don't junk it if it is useless to you (and almost everyone else), as I may have a system that uses that type. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 10:43:19 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:43:19 -0400 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27@mail.gmail.com> <1184128331.3139.36.camel@Darth.Databasics> <51ea77730707102148w1b7b6691ucfa11b1525729b8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I wonder if schematics for those are floating around. They are, but they tend to be expensive copies. I need service docs for an Akai AX60. It uses a microprocessor (D7811) that I am not familiar with, and it seems to have a scrambled brain. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 11 10:46:59 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:46:59 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4693C785.5060707@bluewin.ch> References: <4693BC1B.2030503@jetnet.ab.ca> <200707101729.NAA18011@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4693C785.5060707@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Jul 10, 2007, at 1:53 PM, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >>> I think the problem is computer design rather than the chip >>> design -- >> > I'd actually like to see a clockless machine, one where the whole >> machine is one big asynchronous oscillator, with nothing ever >> stalling >> waiting for a clock pulse. > > You don't have to wait : you can get clockless 32-bit ARM's today. > > They are slower, not faster, but are extremely low power. > They are slower because each datatransfer needs handshaking > CAD tools to assist in this kind of design do exists. I heard about the ARM996 about a year ago, but I wasn't aware that anyone was actually selling it commercially yet. Do you know of any implementations that are actually orderable now? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Jul 11 11:34:45 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:34:45 +0000 Subject: UK computer history gets new home Message-ID: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Just seen on the BBC Web site (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6291422.stm): "Plans are taking shape to set up a museum that celebrates Britain's role in the origins of the digital age. The National Museum of Computing will be based at Bletchley Park where World War II code breakers built the first recognisably modern computers. The museum's centrepiece is the rebuilt Colossus computer that broke high-level German communications during WWII. The museum's founders are seeking funds and backers to exhibit more machines from its extensive collection. " Bob From alanp at snowmoose.com Wed Jul 11 11:43:35 2007 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:43:35 -0700 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <200707110708.l6B77bCe093628@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707110708.l6B77bCe093628@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <469508B7.8080406@snowmoose.com> >>Being Burroughs, it may be VERY WEIRD. Sort of somewhere between smart >> (IBM) and dumb (DEC). It will probably only want to talk to a >> Burroughs. > >Hey, I like weird! But yeah...I'm getting the impression from the >manual this is not an ordinary serial term (though it does have an EIA >interface.) I don't think it emulates anything, except maybe other >Burroughs terms. It has been almost 20 years since I used that stuff, I did work on Burroughs on mainframe-PC integration and terminal subsystem stuff for three years, so I should remember some of it, shouldn't I? Almost no one was using MT-985 when I got there in 86. We all had ET-1100s and ET-2000s (a Burroughs PC clone that was also a Burroughs terminal). I don't recall them having any dumb serial terminal capability. It was a block mode terminal where the mainframe application would send down the form (a mix of text and formatting codes) in one chunk and the terminal would display it, then the use would fill in the fields and send it back to the application in a block when the user hit the transmit key. Electrically, we always used a two-wire interface (TDI or Two Wire Direct Interface). I recall that the connector was a DB-25, but only two pins were used, but that could just be bad memory. The protocol used to communicate with the terminals was called Poll/Select. It was half duplex. The terminal processor (can't remember what those were called in Burroughs-speak) would go through the terminals attached to it and query them to see if they had anything to send and, if a terminal did, it would. Given how hard it is to find info on Burroughs stuff these days, I wish that had saved more stuff when I left. alan From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 11 11:50:21 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:50:21 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707101354.19771.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> <200707101530.LAA16989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200707101354.19771.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200707111250.21455.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 10 July 2007 13:54, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 10 July 2007, der Mouse wrote: > > > It's an oscillator built around a capacitor and something with a > > > breakdown voltage, a neon lamp for example. > > > > With a breakdown voltage, a (lower) extinction voltage, and such that > > breakdown does not harm it (in contrast to, say, a reverse-biased > > silicon diode, which would likely fry in such a circuit). > > There's no reason that you can't use a reverse-biased Si diode at its > breakdown (avalanche) voltage, as long as you kept the current to a > sane level (not a whole lot more than the current rating of the diode, > that is). > > That's basically what a Zener diode is, anyways, just a silicon diode > with a precise breakdown voltage. > > The main problem would be that a reverse-biased diode doesn't have the > same characteristics as a neon bulb... once you're back below the > avalanche voltage, it'll stop conducting in the reverse direction. > > If you wanted to use something that was made of silicon, I'd suggest > using an SCR to do this. Use a zener or reverse-biased diode to set > the "turn on" voltage, and it'll turn itself off once the voltage gets > low enough across it. > > Wow, I'm actually applying some of that "electrical engineering" stuff I > was taught in my undergraduate career. :) Since a lot of parts like UJTs aren't ax commonly available as they used to be I poked around some and found stuff online as to how one might "make" one using a complementary pair of transistors. Couple each base to the other one's collector, and you have an SCR, an SCS, or a PUT, depending on how you wire it up. Not all that much difference between them... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 11:57:37 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:57:37 -0500 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707110957p5d1339a7rd420d261b3761a0c@mail.gmail.com> On 7/11/07, Richard wrote: > Looks pretty cool! Any idea of manufacturing date? No indication on the unit itself. The manual I have for the later(?) model MT-1100 is dated 1983. My terminal's base label says Model MTS-A/MT-985. Few googlefinds on either, although someone listed the MT-985 on their resume :) From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 11 11:58:51 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:58:51 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 10 July 2007 15:18, Tony Duell wrote: > > Relaxation oscillator? > > The one I was thinking of -- the neon bulb blinker -- is this circuit > > R > o----------/\/\/------------+--------------+ > > | --- > > --- O > --- C Neon Bulb > > | O (e.g. NE2) > | --- > > o---------------------------+--------------+ > > > The circuit depends on the fact that a neon requrires a higher voltage to > strike than appears avross it once it's struck. R is chosen so that a > glow discharge cannot be maintained in the neon with the current > available from the supply through R alone. > > Waht happens is that C charges from the supply through R. When the > voltage across C reaches the striking voltage of the neon, the latter > strikes and discharges C until the votlage across the neon is less than > the maintaining voltage. At this point the neon goes out, C starts to > charge up again. > > This was probably the first circuit I ever built, before I went to > school. I know it was before I'd learnt to solder, I built it using those > 'chocolate block' terminal strips. I thin R was 1M, C was about 0.1uF. > The DC supply was a 90V dry battery. And that 90V battery was probably the single biggest reason why I never built one of those... Popular Electronics did a cover story on one of those circuits one time, I forget exactly when, but it was back in the sixties I think. The author built a bunch of these circuits (8? 10?), wired it up, and potted the whole thing with some clear compound. Later on there was a variant on it published with some sort of cross-connections between stages that did some kind of sequencing, I think. There's been some threads about blinky-light circuits in general going on in my yahoo group, "roys-tech-chat", if anybody's interested. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jul 11 12:08:59 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:08:59 +0100 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <469508B7.8080406@snowmoose.com> References: <200707110708.l6B77bCe093628@dewey.classiccmp.org> <469508B7.8080406@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707111008k7f5ea6aele4487b7b766eb54d@mail.gmail.com> On 11/07/07, Alan Perry wrote: > >>Being Burroughs, it may be VERY WEIRD. Sort of somewhere between smart > >> (IBM) and dumb (DEC). It will probably only want to talk to a > >> Burroughs. > > > > It was a block mode terminal where the mainframe application would send > down the form (a mix of text and formatting codes) in one chunk and the > terminal would display it, then the use would fill in the fields and send > it back to the application in a block when the user hit the transmit key. > > The protocol used to communicate with the terminals was called Poll/Select. > It was half duplex. The terminal processor (can't remember what those were > called in Burroughs-speak) would go through the terminals attached to it > and query them to see if they had anything to send and, if a terminal did, > it would. > Hmm.. I remember using something very similar on terminals connected to Ferranti Mini's. (It's probable that the terminals were somebody else's re-badged.) It felt very strange when I was used to a more interactive terminal background, but would probably be familier to people today used to entering web forms & hitting Submit... Rob From bernd at kopriva.de Wed Jul 11 12:34:57 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 19:34:57 +0200 Subject: Symmetric 375 In-Reply-To: <468E73D1.6030503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20070711172340.8DAB9EB64B@mac-mini.local> Hi, i got the machines from Julian some time again, together with quite some stuff on tapes. The content of the tapes was/is available on ftp too. I've only started to play with the machines, as i'm unfortunately busy with other things :( ... ... anyhow i have asked Julian about the status of his ftp site. It seems, that something got broken, but he will try to fix it real soon. Hope this helps Bernd P.S. : Julian is a nice and helpful guy, and he can be reached via eMail, you should find his address at www.berklix.org On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:54:41 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >Just checked, all of the files on ftp.berklix.com are gone >Bernd Kopriva is on the list, hopefully he mirrored it. >Dumping the boot proms would be a good thing. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Jul 11 12:52:29 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:52:29 +0100 Subject: UK computer history gets new home / BCS@50 In-Reply-To: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1184176349.6309.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:34 +0000, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Just seen on the BBC Web site > (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6291422.stm): > > "Plans are taking shape to set up a museum that celebrates Britain's > role in the origins of the digital age. > > The National Museum of Computing will be based at Bletchley Park where > World War II code breakers built the first recognisably modern > computers. > > The museum's centrepiece is the rebuilt Colossus computer that broke > high-level German communications during WWII. > > The museum's founders are seeking funds and backers to exhibit more > machines from its extensive collection. " > > Bob It's mentioned in this article - is anyone going to the BCS at 50 day there tomorrow? I will be there - if anyone's going they can get in touch via the mobile number on my Contact page at the site below. I'll also be in London Friday and Saturday. See http://www.bcsat50.org/ if you want to learn about what's going on, though the Bletchley Park day is fully booked. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 13:02:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:02:04 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4694041D.7448.2A36C0@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4694B8AC.7884.2EB846C@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jul 2007 at 6:40, dwight elvey wrote: >> Hi Chuck > Ok, are we allowed to use a vacuum triode? Using high voltage > to help linearize the saw tooth seems to be the sledge hammer > method. We certainly could use a vacuum triod--as long as we took care to select one with a sufficient heater-cathode breakdown voltage rating or provide a separate heater winding on the power transformer. This was often a problem even with vacuum timebases, such as the Puckle circuit. The most clever non-gas sawtooth generator I've ever seen was the Miller circuit that used the same pentode as both a constant- current source and an oscillator. I know it was not at all uncommon to use a JFET as a simple constant- current supply for a UJT relaxation oscillator. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 13:04:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:04:43 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jul 2007 at 12:58, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > And that 90V battery was probably the single biggest reason why I never built > one of those... Somewhere, online, I ran across a reproduction of an entire booklet on neon-bulb applications. I'll see if I can remember where... Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 13:15:28 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:15:28 -0500 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <469508B7.8080406@snowmoose.com> References: <200707110708.l6B77bCe093628@dewey.classiccmp.org> <469508B7.8080406@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707111115g5592ab01l80460c906c9de7cc@mail.gmail.com> On 7/11/07, Alan Perry wrote: > It was a block mode terminal where the mainframe application would send > down the form (a mix of text and formatting codes) in one chunk and the > terminal would display it, then the use would fill in the fields and send > it back to the application in a block when the user hit the transmit key. Ah ha - that explains the "receive" and "transmit" keys. I had suspected it at least had some sort of "batch" mode. > The protocol used to communicate with the terminals was called Poll/Select. > It was half duplex. The terminal processor (can't remember what those were > called in Burroughs-speak) would go through the terminals attached to it > and query them to see if they had anything to send and, if a terminal did, > it would. Yes...the MT1100 manual I have shows a sort of "daisy-chain" configuration where the terminals connect to each other, then to the central processor or CPU. From memory, the ports on the back of mine are marked "COMM D," "COMM P" and "S/IO." (Again, that's from memory as I sit here at work.) Eh, I won't be able to attach it to anything, but I'll bring it with me to VCFmw this weekend as an oddball piece of hardware. Thanks for the info, Alan! -j From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Jul 11 13:49:04 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:49:04 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4693BC1B.2030503@jetnet.ab.ca> <200707101729.NAA18011@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4693C785.5060707@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <46952620.9020300@bluewin.ch> >> They are slower, not faster, but are extremely low power. >> They are slower because each datatransfer needs handshaking >> CAD tools to assist in this kind of design do exists. > > I heard about the ARM996 about a year ago, but I wasn't aware that > anyone was actually selling it commercially yet. Do you know of any > implementations that are actually orderable now? > If you mean standalone, readmade CPU's, then I do not know any avaliable commercially. The IP can be bought today. Devices using this techniques are available : for instance the p87cl888 contains an async 8051. People in our site (NXP semiconductors ) have used Tangram. Maybe I should get me some prototypes. Jos From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Jul 11 13:51:19 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:51:19 +0200 Subject: Looking for Eagle symbols for 2901 / 2911 Message-ID: <469526A7.8030500@bluewin.ch> If anybody has anything of the above, I would be interested. Jos From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jul 11 14:06:32 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Somewhere, online, I ran across a reproduction of an entire booklet > on neon-bulb applications. I'll see if I can remember where... Perhaps this? http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/t.pl/library1965geglowlamps.html Or this? http://lab.artematrix.org/electronics/cold-cathode_def.php Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 11 14:03:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:03:20 -0500 Subject: UK computer history gets new home / BCS@50 In-Reply-To: <1184176349.6309.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <1184176349.6309.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <46952978.7000709@yahoo.co.uk> Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > It's mentioned in this article - is anyone going to the BCS at 50 day there > tomorrow? I will be there - if anyone's going they can get in touch via > the mobile number on my Contact page at the site below. I'll also be in > London Friday and Saturday. I'll be on site at Bletchley tomorrow from 9:30 or so, up in H Block - almost certainly in the room housing the Elliott 803 etc. (unless I get dragged into the workshop next door, or over in the archive room). It's been a rather busy day today trying to put everything in place for tomorrow; unfortunately I never got time to look at the list of who's coming to see whether there were any classiccmpers! I'm sure we'll run into each other at some stage tomorrow anyway (if I remember right, the afternoon's "free to wander around on your own" time) > See http://www.bcsat50.org/ if you want to learn about what's going on, > though the Bletchley Park day is fully booked. Yep - the layout of the building where the new museum is makes it hard to take tours of more than 30 round at a time, which meant there was a limit on how many places were available in total. We're open to the general public "properly" around October time (by which time the ICL 2966 etc. will be in place) - but we often find ourselves giving people a little peek at things behind the scenes in the meantime! (there's always quite a few volunteers there on a Saturday, so from a computing perspective they're the best day to visit the Park) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 14:22:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:22:19 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> I know it's off-topic a bit, but I stumbled on this clock using neon bulbs for counters and nixies for display. No vacuum tubes--just caps, resistors, diodes and neon. http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/neonclock/ And here's the GE glow lamp applications guide that I referenced: http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/t.pl/library1965geglowlamps.html Note the sections on using glow lamps for logic and memory. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 14:23:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:23:17 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: References: , <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4694CBB5.21595.335DDC5@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jul 2007 at 15:06, Mike Loewen wrote: > http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/t.pl/library1965geglowlamps.html Yup, just sent the post citing this one. Cheers, Chuck From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Jul 11 14:25:40 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:25:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK computer history gets new home / BCS@50 In-Reply-To: <1184176349.6309.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <1184176349.6309.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <20070711202405.I15383@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:34 +0000, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: >> Just seen on the BBC Web site >> (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6291422.stm): >> >> "Plans are taking shape to set up a museum that celebrates Britain's >> role in the origins of the digital age. >> >> The National Museum of Computing will be based at Bletchley Park where >> World War II code breakers built the first recognisably modern >> computers. >> >> The museum's centrepiece is the rebuilt Colossus computer that broke >> high-level German communications during WWII. >> >> The museum's founders are seeking funds and backers to exhibit more >> machines from its extensive collection. " >> >> Bob > > It's mentioned in this article - is anyone going to the BCS at 50 day there > tomorrow? I will be there - if anyone's going they can get in touch via > the mobile number on my Contact page at the site below. I'll also be in > London Friday and Saturday. I'll be going along also, to Bletchley Thursday and London Friday. I think we should all have name badges. But will take a note of your mobile in case :o) Cheers, Andrew From stevew at ka6s.com Wed Jul 11 14:33:20 2007 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steve Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:33:20 -0700 Subject: Burroughs Terminal info Message-ID: <200707111233.20900.stevew@ka6s.com> Hmmm - the MT985 likely uses a polled protocol at RS-485 levels. It wants to hook up to the B1955 Multi-line controller fer instance. You would hang a bunch of these on a multi-drop line. The Multi-line would throw-out a poll sequence and get either an ACK or NACK from each terminal on the line. If the ACK happens, the terminal is then told to send in a block of data. If memory serves - it has 3 separate micros in it, and the software running on it was written in Pascal. These came out around 1981-2. Steve Wilson (worked on the B1955/B1965 design) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 11 14:59:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:59:27 -0500 Subject: UK computer history gets new home / BCS@50 In-Reply-To: <20070711202405.I15383@plum.flirble.org> References: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <1184176349.6309.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> <20070711202405.I15383@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <4695369F.4080501@yahoo.co.uk> Andrew Back wrote: > I think we should all have name badges. Yes, should do, traffic permitting! (last I heard earlier today was that they're being couriered up from the BCS offices in the wee hours of tomorrow morning) cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 11 15:40:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:40:58 -0600 Subject: Looking for Eagle symbols for 2901 / 2911 In-Reply-To: <469526A7.8030500@bluewin.ch> References: <469526A7.8030500@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4695405A.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > If anybody has anything of the above, I would be interested. Don't look at me. I still need a PCB/schematic capture program.:( Well I know what you are doing now :) If don't mind me asking, where do you plan to get your 2901's if you don't have them all ready.All the places that I know that sell them cheaply just have 2901's, no A B or C versions. > Jos From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:26:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:26:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4694041D.7448.2A36C0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 10, 7 10:11:41 pm Message-ID: > Uh, Dwight, we're talking "vintage" gas triodes here. If I had a > transistor of any sort, why would I be messing with neons or > thermionic gas triodes? Er, for the same reason that I mess around with old computers when there are newer and faseter machine I coulf buy? Because it's _FUN_. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:22:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:22:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Victor 9000/Sirius 1 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <71918.94357.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 10, 7 04:21:17 pm Message-ID: > A thorough cleaning is in order before you replace > all that. I bathe my keyboards in a 10-15% solution of > ammonia and water. I haven't yet disassembled a V9K > keyboard, but I imagine it's typical as far as > keyboards go. Remove the plastic and toss it in. If > you need more details, I'll provide. It works well. The notes I made when I repaired my Sirius don't say how the keyboard is made, but from the schemaitcs, I'll bet it's a Keytronics. There are the sadnard pair of Keytronics ASICs linked to a microcontroller (in this case an 8021). The outer casing will come off easily, screws on the bottom I think. Then take out all the tiny screws ont he bottom of the PCB and seprate it from the keyframe. Personally, I take the whole lot apart and clean the bits separately. It takes longer, but if you get liquid into the foam pads of a Keytroncis, it'll squish for a long time.... There are 2 common failure modes of the Keytronics 'swtich'. The foam pad between the 2 mylar disks breaks up, or the metalisation on the lower mylar disk vanishes. Eary to repair if you can find some spaee assemblies. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:31:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:31:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070711100744.012c6f88@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jul 11, 7 10:09:44 am Message-ID: > > Or with a bit more effort you can utilize the same effect with a NIC Negative Impedance Converter? > > Network Interface Card? I'd like to see that... I would have thought most Network Interface Cards contained enough circuitry to flash an LED :-). The problem might be getting access to it,.as it's likely to be hidden inside large chips... > > > or a gyrator. A reciprocal impedance converter circuit. Basically, you connect an impedance to one side of a gyratorm, and the other side appears (to the rest of the circuit) to be 1/. It can make capacitors look like inductors and vice versa. You can make one using an op-amp. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:36:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:36:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 11, 7 11:43:19 am Message-ID: > I need service docs for an Akai AX60. It uses a microprocessor (D7811) > that I am not familiar with, and it seems to have a scrambled brain. Good luck, you're going to need it... I've come across the 7811 in Canon laser printer engines, It's an 8-bit microcontroller -- it contains ROM and RAM as well as the CPU. IIRc, ther'es also an 8-channel 8-bit ADC on the chip. I can almost certianly find a pinout of said chip. The bad new is that AFAIK it only exists as a mask-programmed device, there's no EPROM or OTP version. There is the 7810, which is the ROMless equivalent (you use some of the I/O ports as an address/data bus for external program memory, something in the back of my mind says the bus is 8085-like, with the data multiplexed ont he low 8 address lines). But that's not a lot of help if you alredy have the device in an applciation cirucit that's using all the port pins. And AFAIK there was no electrical way to read out the ROM contents. OK, uncap the chip and look at the metalisation, but nothing simple like an electrical 'verify' mode. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:43:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:43:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 11, 7 11:04:43 am Message-ID: > Somewhere, online, I ran across a reproduction of an entire booklet > on neon-bulb applications. I'll see if I can remember where... There's a book called 'Cold Cathode Tube Circuit Design' which covers all sorts of applications of these devices (and stabiliser valves, nixie tubes, dekatrons etc). I certailly rememebr a neon shift register and various logic gates. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:40:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:40:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jul 11, 7 12:58:51 pm Message-ID: > And that 90V battery was probably the single biggest reason why I never b= > uilt=20 > one of those... Back when I built mine, 90V batteries were still fairly easy to obtain. Nowadays, I'd probably go to the local 'pound shop' and buy 10 cheap 9V batteries and link them in series. The current drawn is so low that even cheap-n-nasty 9V batteries would last quite a time. IMHO it's cheating to use a step-up switching regulator IC. If you've got one of those, you can get a 555 timer ;-) -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 11 15:52:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:52:31 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs - OT radio In-Reply-To: <200707111250.21455.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200707092254.l69MsoAv011404@floodgap.com> <200707101530.LAA16989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200707101354.19771.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200707111250.21455.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4695430F.4070702@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Since a lot of parts like UJTs aren't ax commonly available as they used to be > I poked around some and found stuff online as to how one might "make" one > using a complementary pair of transistors. Couple each base to the other > one's collector, and you have an SCR, an SCS, or a PUT, depending on how > you wire it up. Not all that much difference between them... :-) Well I found this surfing last night. Fet + Pnp = Strange radio. http://www.schmarder.com/radios/solidstate/homodyne.htm From david at marmotking.com Wed Jul 11 15:40:17 2007 From: david at marmotking.com (David Cooper) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:40:17 -0700 Subject: CP/M for DEC VT-180? Message-ID: <000e01c7c3fb$b17a2c10$0e64a8c0@vhikits.local> I stumbled across a very old post you made asking for CP/M disks for a VT-180. Did you ever find them? I know this is a REAL shot in the dark. I can't seem to locate them anywhere. I was able to find all the pieces to upgrade a VT-100 to a VT-180. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jul 11 16:00:16 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:00:16 -0600 Subject: Looking for Eagle symbols for 2901 / 2911 In-Reply-To: <4695405A.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <469526A7.8030500@bluewin.ch> <4695405A.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469544E0.7080701@e-bbes.com> woodelf wrote: > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >> >> If anybody has anything of the above, I would be interested. > > Don't look at me. I still need a PCB/schematic capture program.:( > Well I know what you are doing now :) > If don't mind me asking, where do you plan to get your 2901's > if you don't have them all ready.All the places that I know > that sell them cheaply just have 2901's, no A B or C versions. Sure you can't use the 2903 ? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 11 16:11:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:11:04 -0400 Subject: CP/M for DEC VT-180? In-Reply-To: <000e01c7c3fb$b17a2c10$0e64a8c0@vhikits.local> References: <000e01c7c3fb$b17a2c10$0e64a8c0@vhikits.local> Message-ID: <22580C94-561B-478E-B41F-C92484DB0290@neurotica.com> On Jul 11, 2007, at 4:40 PM, David Cooper wrote: > I stumbled across a very old post you made asking for CP/M disks > for a VT-180. Did you ever find them? I know this is a REAL shot > in the dark. I can't seem to locate them anywhere. I was able to > find all the pieces to upgrade a VT-100 to a VT-180. I don't recall where I got them, but I've put them up for download at: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/vt180.zip They are in TeleDisk format. You wouldn't happen to have a spare VT180 paddle board, would you? Mine will be complete if I can find one of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jul 11 16:16:48 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:16:48 -0700 Subject: Looking for Eagle symbols for 2901 / 2911 In-Reply-To: <469526A7.8030500@bluewin.ch> References: <469526A7.8030500@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <469548C0.3050505@shiresoft.com> It's not all that hard to create the devices required. I just created a bunch of new devices that are in 144 & 208 pin TQFP packages. I'm sure that 40-pin devices aren't all that difficult. Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > If anybody has anything of the above, I would be interested. > > Jos > > -- TTFN - Guy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jul 11 16:18:34 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:18:34 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... References: Message-ID: <46954929.ADD9667D@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > >From: Lyle Bickley > ---snip--- > > > >Factoid: Many TI chips produced during 1975-77 period had very thin "legs" > >and > >poor tinning. When they were wave soldered, the solder offered them > >protection. However, when they were socketed (as in the MODCOMP) they had > >very little protection from the environment. They would rust and eventually > >fail. > > > ---snip--- > > The problem was that the outside was the silver plating ( the blackened > color is the > oxidized silver ) and the material inside would react electrolytically and > rot out > with even the slightest dampness. I've seen them where the only material > left was the plating. The slightest touch and the leg would just be gone :\ > Dwight I have seen this with TI ICs from that period where the failure is not apparent to visual inspection: the pins look fine but when you 'scope the pin at the solder cusp where it goes through the board hole you see one signal, 'scope it up where it enters the IC body and see a different signal. Very perplexing to diagnose the first time as it's so unexpected to see a simple conductor fail like that. Can show up as intermittents as well, as a little flexing of the board can change the conduction characteristics at the failure. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Jul 11 16:49:19 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 22:49:19 +0100 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4695505F.6070201@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>I need service docs for an Akai AX60. It uses a microprocessor (D7811) >>that I am not familiar with, and it seems to have a scrambled brain. > I've come across the 7811 in Canon laser printer engines, It's an 8-bit > microcontroller ... > The bad new is that AFAIK it only exists as a mask-programmed device, > there's no EPROM or OTP version. There is the 7810, which is the ROMless > equivalent (you use some of the I/O ports as an address/data bus for > external program memory, something in the back of my mind says the bus is > 8085-like, with the data multiplexed ont he low 8 address lines). I've seen a 7810 recently in the battery capacity meter circuit of the City-El electric bubble car: http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/551136316/ I think I found out a bit about it from the NEC data sheet, which seemed to show that it was a Z80 CPU and some peripherals, including an A-to-D converter. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 11 16:54:51 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:54:51 -0600 Subject: Looking for Eagle symbols for 2901 / 2911 In-Reply-To: <469544E0.7080701@e-bbes.com> References: <469526A7.8030500@bluewin.ch> <4695405A.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <469544E0.7080701@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <469551AB.3030506@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > > Sure you can't use the 2903 ? What 2903??? BG micro 2901 $3.50 Unicorn Electronics 2901 $7.99 Ben alias Woodelf PS. windows wants me to reboot :( Back soon I hope. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 11 16:49:35 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 22:49:35 +0100 Subject: UK computer history gets new home / BCS@50 In-Reply-To: <46952978.7000709@yahoo.co.uk> References: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <1184176349.6309.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> <46952978.7000709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4695506F.3080402@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/07/2007 20:03, Jules Richardson wrote: > Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: >> It's mentioned in this article - is anyone going to the BCS at 50 day there >> tomorrow? I will be there - if anyone's going they can get in touch via >> the mobile number on my Contact page at the site below. I'll also be in >> London Friday and Saturday. > > I'll be on site at Bletchley tomorrow [...] > > It's been a rather busy day today trying to put everything in place for > tomorrow; unfortunately I never got time to look at the list of who's > coming to see whether there were any classiccmpers! I had planned to go, but the next four days are our every-5-years electrical safety testing, which is constrained to a very few possible dates thanks to degree days, open days, UCAS clearing, etc, and the dates were agreed with umpteen departments months ago :-( Hopefully someone will post a report and perhaps some pictures. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jul 11 17:04:58 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:04:58 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) References: , <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4695540A.9321EF7B@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > And here's the GE glow lamp applications guide that I referenced: > > http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/t.pl/library1965geglowlamps.html > > Note the sections on using glow lamps for logic and memory. Or the reference at the top of this page: http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/oldbooks.html Neon bulb circuitry is cctech standard discussion #13 on a 10 month cycle. > I know it's off-topic a bit, but I stumbled on this clock using neon > bulbs for counters and nixies for display. No vacuum tubes--just > caps, resistors, diodes and neon. > > http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/neonclock/ Neat, if you remember we were discussing doing just this on the list last year: Subject: Re: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:08:14 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 woodelf wrote: > Well can't you use neon tube logic and nixie tubes + a few diodes to > make a clock. This ain't high freq stuff here. Neat idea .. looked up the glow bulb logic manual and there is a circuit for a ring counter. Each stage requires 1 neon bulb, 1 diode, 1 resistor and 1 capacitor. So in theory one could build a 12-hour 6-digit digital clock (60Hz-line timebase) with 3*(10+6)+12=60 neon bulbs. Perhaps 61, using another bulb to square up the 60Hz line trigger. Might need amplifiers between digits. However, my understanding of neon logic is that it's great in theory, but not so much in practice. The characteristics between bulbs vary enough to make implementation awkward and the characteristics of the bulbs vary over time, leading to reliability problems. As the description of ring counters in the the manual says: "Lamps should be aged for best results and some selection may be desirable." There was a discussion about these issues for neon-lamp-memory on the list in May 2005. From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jul 11 18:03:24 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:03:24 -0500 Subject: CP/M for DEC VT-180? In-Reply-To: <000e01c7c3fb$b17a2c10$0e64a8c0@vhikits.local> Message-ID: <200707112206.l6BM6Utb023368@hosting.monisys.ca> > I stumbled across a very old post you made asking for CP/M disks for a VT-180. Did you ever find > them? I know this is a REAL shot in the dark. I can't seem to locate them anywhere. I was able to > find all the pieces to upgrade a VT-100 to a VT-180. I have the VT-180 (robin) CP/M disk images up on my site. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 18:12:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:12:05 -0500 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 7/11/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > And that 90V battery was probably the single biggest reason why I never > > built one of those... Me, either. > Back when I built mine, 90V batteries were still fairly easy to obtain. > Nowadays, I'd probably go to the local 'pound shop' and buy 10 cheap 9V > batteries and link them in series. The current drawn is so low that even > cheap-n-nasty 9V batteries would last quite a time. Certainly, that works, but I'd be curious what the lifetime would be... years? under a year? I would think that the shelf-life would be a significant component in the lifetime calculation, not merely current draw. I can see how one could make some sort of snap-together 3D battery sculpture to make a 90VDC brick, but would doing so create some sort of safety issue? (discounting grabbing the most negative and most positive terminals thereby attaching yourself to 90VDC - that is an implicit safety issue that would still be there if you could find an old 90V dry battery). > IMHO it's cheating to use a step-up switching regulator IC. If you've got > one of those, you can get a 555 timer ;-) There are plenty of 1970s designs for those - I have them in the Sams "555 Timer Cookbook", and, I think, in "Don Lancaster's TTL Cookbook" (he dips into 555 designs as they interface to TTL circuits). I don't think there are any listed designs that go up that high there, but extending what's there isn't too difficult. One doesn't need a 90VDC 1A power supply for blinking nine neon bulbs. I may have to dig around my junk box for some bulbs... -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 18:30:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 19:30:41 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46956821.8060309@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I can see how one could make some sort of snap-together 3D battery > sculpture to make a 90VDC brick, but would doing so create some sort > of safety issue? (discounting grabbing the most negative and most > positive terminals thereby attaching yourself to 90VDC - that is an > implicit safety issue that would still be there if you could find an > old 90V dry battery). I was thinking of the same 3D structure you were thinking. In fact, I have used a bundle of 10Ohm resistors in parallel wired to a bunch of 9V batteries in parallel to ignite a chemical fuse in a timed explosive. 90VDC shouldn't hurt you too bad, as long as your skin is dry when you tough the terminals. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 18:41:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:41:49 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, , Message-ID: <4695084D.9559.4229323@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jul 2007 at 18:12, Ethan Dicks wrote: > There are plenty of 1970s designs for those - I have them in the Sams > "555 Timer Cookbook", and, I think, in "Don Lancaster's TTL Cookbook" > (he dips into 555 designs as they interface to TTL circuits). I don't > think there are any listed designs that go up that high there, but > extending what's there isn't too difficult. One doesn't need a 90VDC > 1A power supply for blinking nine neon bulbs. As long as we're discussing antique technology, why not a vibrator and step-up transformer? Then one can recitfy the AC by means of an aluminum-borax rectifier. What the heck, a 9v transistor radio battery is too new, anyway. How about some crowfoot cells? Perhaps one could simply do away with the neon lamps and substitute air spark gaps (using plate glass capacitors, of course) and power the whole affair with a coal-fired steam engine driving a winshurst machine. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 11 18:56:58 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:56:58 -0500 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4695084D.9559.4229323@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> <4695084D.9559.4229323@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070711185315.06afd7d0@mail> At 06:41 PM 7/11/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >As long as we're discussing antique technology, why not a vibrator >and step-up transformer? Then one can recitfy the AC by means of an >aluminum-borax rectifier. Hadn't heard of those: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm but they look interesting. So why do they glow? As for the original thread topic, I had wanted to chime in and point out the 90 volt vs. 5 volt comparison from the start. - John From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Jul 11 09:02:12 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:02:12 -0700 Subject: trace wrinkles In-Reply-To: References: <468F146F.7050908@garlic.com> <46923678.40306@garlic.com> <46938297.6060708@garlic.com> Message-ID: <4694E2E4.5070005@garlic.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> How does the copper stick to the substrate? >> >> Are you taking that into account? > > Yes. If anything, it will actually help any wrinkle problem, as it > will allow the tiniest amount of slop. Like the BGAs, the glue can act > as a continuous moment arm. > The adhesive loses it's youthful suppleness over time. It eventually becomes rock hard and brittle. Not a very good moment arm, then. I've got 2oz PCB's built in 1962 with traces just plain falling off the board because the adhesive hardened and quit holding. These were not stored in extreme temperatures, rather, the temp range has been very narrow. I had a PCB from an early 1980's microwave that had less than 1oz copper and the traces started visibly wrinkling some years ago. > Traces falling off due to excessive heat is a different issue, and one > I have no argument with. > I attempted to contrast an extreme case to the more common smaller temp deltas seen in "normal use" to show how the factors of temp, temp cycling and time can affect wrinkling. Sorry that was missed. The point is that wrinkling occurs as a function (in part) of temp ranges and time. And, by the way, the weight of the copper also affects it. Less than 1oz copper goes faster than over 1oz copper. Et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum, et al. In an extreme case wrinkling and lifting/peeling/whatever happen _much sooner_. Obviously it takes a lot more time under "normal conditions". And wrinkling is more likely to occur with thin copper than with thick copper, which is more likely to lift/peel/ whatever, obviously. Likely, that is, not an absolute certainty. A lot of consumer electronics were made with less than 1oz copper PCB's--and cheap ones to boot. It's been long enough that it is possible that the wrinkling was caused by these factors. I know wrinkling does happen. I've seen it plenty of times. Even the smallest degrees of contraction and expansion can eventually work far enough along to create wrinkles and lifting/peeling. If the OP is talking about the "wrinkles" caused by flow during production soldering then that's a whole different can of worms but it did not seem that is what was being asked about. == jd "I may appear to be just sitting here like a bucket of tapioca, but don't let appearances fool you. I'm approaching old age ... at the speed of light." -- Prof. Cosmo Fishhawk From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 19:17:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:17:35 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46956821.8060309@gmail.com> References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, , <46956821.8060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <469510AF.25504.4435068@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jul 2007 at 19:30, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I was thinking of the same 3D structure you were thinking. In fact, I > have used a bundle of 10Ohm resistors in parallel wired to a bunch of 9V > batteries in parallel to ignite a chemical fuse in a timed explosive. Why not use a couple of Eveready 415 45 volt batteries? They're still made, the last I checked. Service life should be shelf life. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 19:19:19 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:19:19 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: <4695540A.9321EF7B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: >From: Brent Hilpert ---snip--- > >However, my understanding of neon logic is that it's great in theory, but >not >so much in practice. The characteristics between bulbs vary enough to make >implementation awkward and the characteristics of the bulbs vary over time, >leading to reliability problems. >As the description of ring counters in the the manual says: > "Lamps should be aged for best results and some selection may be >desirable." > Hi At one time one could get three terminal neon lamps. These could be used for many logic functions reliably since they always had on electrode with ionized gas on it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 19:23:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:23:24 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070711185315.06afd7d0@mail> References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4695084D.9559.4229323@cclist.sydex.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070711185315.06afd7d0@mail> Message-ID: <4695120C.25454.448A507@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jul 2007 at 18:56, John Foust wrote: > Hadn't heard of those: > > http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm > > but they look interesting. So why do they glow? I remember my father telling me about the borax-and-aluminum "battery eliminator" he used as a boy. My guess is that the glow is for the same reason as the glowing pickle--you get tiny steam bubbles and an arc that ionizes the vapor within. http://www.boingboing.net/2006/08/31/howto_make_a_glowing.html Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 19:26:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:26:12 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469510AF.25504.4435068@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, , <46956821.8060309@gmail.com> <469510AF.25504.4435068@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46957524.6010609@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Jul 2007 at 19:30, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> I was thinking of the same 3D structure you were thinking. In fact, I >> have used a bundle of 10Ohm resistors in parallel wired to a bunch of 9V >> batteries in parallel to ignite a chemical fuse in a timed explosive. > > Why not use a couple of Eveready 415 45 volt batteries? They're > still made, the last I checked. Service life should be shelf life. Cost. Peace... Sridhar From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jul 11 20:05:57 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 11 Jul 2007 18:05:57 -0700 Subject: CP/M for DEC VT-180? In-Reply-To: <000e01c7c3fb$b17a2c10$0e64a8c0@vhikits.local> References: <000e01c7c3fb$b17a2c10$0e64a8c0@vhikits.local> Message-ID: <1184202357.46957e752f66c@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting David Cooper : > I stumbled across a very old post you made asking for CP/M disks for a > VT-180. Did you ever find them? I know this is a REAL shot in the > dark. I can't seem to locate them anywhere. I was able to find all the > pieces to upgrade a VT-100 to a VT-180. > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/system.htm IMD 250k DEC VT-180 "Robin" system disks From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Wed Jul 11 20:16:56 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 02:16:56 +0100 Subject: UK computer history gets new home In-Reply-To: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <92A2D4E3-4A8F-4E4B-9EEB-F282760A3350@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 11 Jul 2007, at 17:34, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Just seen on the BBC Web site (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/ > technology/6291422.stm): > > "Plans are taking shape to set up a museum that celebrates > Britain's role in the origins of the digital age. Reading about Bletchley Park I'm never quite sure quite how the heck it rose from the bunch of derelict concrete prefabs I knew as a (1970s) child to the acknowledged symbol of computing history that it now is. Enough kudos to them - if there is a publicly-funded British National Museum of Computing, I think it's likely to be at Bletchley Park. Since I live locally to (less than 5 miles from) Bletchley Park, I often read of events there covered in the local paper. A (fairly unique slate) statue to Turing was recently unveiled and featured on the front page of the Citizen. I was disappointed to read praise of his wartime efforts but no mention of how he was subsequently hounded to suicide. I feel this to be a series of events of which we should all be ashamed and equal in signifiance to his mathematical achievements, yet half a century later it is still swept under the carpet. :( Stroller. From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Wed Jul 11 20:29:26 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 02:29:26 +0100 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F2C3058-CB16-4194-985F-C38D3467E9D8@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 11 Jul 2007, at 20:22, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I know it's off-topic a bit, but I stumbled on this clock using neon > bulbs for counters and nixies for display. No vacuum tubes--just > caps, resistors, diodes and neon. > > http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/neonclock/ OMG! That's GORGEOUS. My era of "historical" computing interest is 6502-onwards, NeXTstep and SGI, but that photo is enough to make me consider breaking out a soldering iron. Stroller. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 20:44:06 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:44:06 -0400 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: References: <4695540A.9321EF7B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > At one time one could get three terminal neon lamps. These could be > used for many logic functions reliably since they always had on electrode > with ionized gas on it. You still can. They are called Krytrons, are expensive, DAMN fast, and are export controlled. Used for opening cans of sunshine. -- Will From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jul 11 21:00:05 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 19:00:05 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: References: <4695540A.9321EF7B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46958B25.8070000@mainecoon.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Used for opening cans of sunshine. Or, phrased slightly differently, igniting short-lived local suns. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jul 11 21:12:09 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 03:12:09 +0100 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term References: <51ea77730707101914h62e8b894n7cf71051e15793a4@mail.gmail.com><51ea77730707102103p53d6058ejac27c214ea586b27@mail.gmail.com><1184128331.3139.36.camel@Darth.Databasics><51ea77730707102148w1b7b6691ucfa11b1525729b8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002001c7c42a$0df48e30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....It uses a microprocessor (D7811) that I am not familiar with.... Not much info on the 'net (even NEC's own website only seems to have a datasheet in Japanese) but it looks to be a microcontroller based around the Z80. TTFN - Pete. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Jul 11 21:23:08 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:23:08 -0500 Subject: Looking for 5251 manuals Message-ID: <003a01c7c42b$964ff9d0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hi all, I'm looking for the switch settings and/or a service manual to indicate what the switches on the back of my 5251 do. Anyone have this data? Thanks Julian From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 11 21:35:04 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 22:35:04 -0400 Subject: VCF/MW dinner Message-ID: <200707112235.04982.pat@computer-refuge.org> Anyone who's coming to VCF/Midwest and wants to meet up for dinner on Saturday, drop me a message tonight or early tomorrow. I want to get an estimate of how many people we're going to have, so I can potentially make a reservation. So, if you'd be bringing someone with you, let me know that as well. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 11 21:35:13 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 22:35:13 -0400 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: References: <4695540A.9321EF7B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200707112235.13100.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 July 2007 21:44, William Donzelli wrote: > Used for opening cans of sunshine. That's a particularly amusing name for it.. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 11 23:20:46 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:20:46 -0700 Subject: Four IBM 3420 tape drives and one 3803 controller In-Reply-To: <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4695AC1E.7060304@sbcglobal.net> There are four nice looking IBM 3420 tape drives with the controller and manuals up on Dovebid: http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=cpt64716 Only a $25 starting bid and no bids yet. Sure hope someone (with lots of space) will rescue these. Bob From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Jul 11 23:30:10 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:30:10 +0200 Subject: Looking for Eagle symbols for 2901 / 2911 In-Reply-To: <469548C0.3050505@shiresoft.com> References: <469526A7.8030500@bluewin.ch> <469548C0.3050505@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4695AE52.4020705@bluewin.ch> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > It's not all that hard to create the devices required. I just created a > bunch of new devices that are in 144 & 208 pin TQFP packages. I'm sure > that 40-pin devices aren't all that difficult. > I realise that, but it is tedious task for an occasional eagle user. I will just be documenting an existing machine, not building anything new Jos From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 00:37:29 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:37:29 -0500 Subject: VCF/Midwest 3.0 - this weekend - July 14/15! In-Reply-To: <200707101557.49474.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200707101557.49474.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <624966d60707112237j7a787a0ch5dc753dbf78f309a@mail.gmail.com> If anybody needs any DEC gear , let me know and I'll try to bring it. Paul On 7/10/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > There's just a few more days left until this year's Vintage Computer > Festival / Midwest. So, come and see all of our excellent exhibits put > on by computer collector hobbyists, listen to our speakers talking > about vintage computer topics, and relish in the nostalgia by > buying/selling/trading your own old computer gear at the VCF > Marketplace at the event! > > VCF/Midwest 3.0 will be July 14-15, at Purdue University's Stewart > center. Speakers will run from 11a to 2p each day, and exhibits and > the marketplace will be open from 2p to 6p. Admission is $5 per day > for access to the whole event, and kids 17 and under get in for free. > > For more details, and to sign up as a last-minute exhbitor or vendor, > please see the official VCF/Midwest 3.0 website at: > http://www.vintage.org/2007/midwest/index.php > > If you have any questions, feel free to send me a message at: > vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. > > This year's VCF/Midwest is being sponsored by the Rosen Center for > Advanced Computing at Purdue University - http://www.rcac.purdue.edu > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 11 16:59:48 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:59:48 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs - OT radio Message-ID: <0JL100FBOBRE6WS1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs - OT radio > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:52:31 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> Since a lot of parts like UJTs aren't ax commonly available as they used to be >> I poked around some and found stuff online as to how one might "make" one >> using a complementary pair of transistors. Couple each base to the other >> one's collector, and you have an SCR, an SCS, or a PUT, depending on how >> you wire it up. Not all that much difference between them... :-) > >Well I found this surfing last night. Fet + Pnp = Strange radio. >http://www.schmarder.com/radios/solidstate/homodyne.htm > That is a simple DC coupled amp that is used to first amplify RF then the detected audio is passed through again. The fet is for high input impedence and the transistor is for increased gain. Other wise know as a reflex receiver. Allison From jason at textfiles.com Wed Jul 11 22:20:26 2007 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF/MW dinner In-Reply-To: <200707112235.04982.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200707112235.04982.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20070711232017.K7165@cache.cow.net> Hey, I'll be doing an interview that night. On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Anyone who's coming to VCF/Midwest and wants to meet up for dinner on > Saturday, drop me a message tonight or early tomorrow. I want to get > an estimate of how many people we're going to have, so I can > potentially make a reservation. So, if you'd be bringing someone with > you, let me know that as well. > > Thanks, > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Jul 12 01:19:21 2007 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 01:19:21 -0500 Subject: VCF/Midwest 3.0 - this weekend - July 14/15! In-Reply-To: <624966d60707112237j7a787a0ch5dc753dbf78f309a@mail.gmail.com> References: <200707101557.49474.pat@computer-refuge.org> <624966d60707112237j7a787a0ch5dc753dbf78f309a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Don't need DEC gear, but HP gear....that would be very nice :-) -Bob >If anybody needs any DEC gear , let me know and I'll try to bring it. > >Paul > > >On 7/10/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >>There's just a few more days left until this year's Vintage Computer >>Festival / Midwest. So, come and see all of our excellent exhibits put >>on by computer collector hobbyists, listen to our speakers talking >>about vintage computer topics, and relish in the nostalgia by >>buying/selling/trading your own old computer gear at the VCF >>Marketplace at the event! >> >>VCF/Midwest 3.0 will be July 14-15, at Purdue University's Stewart >>center. Speakers will run from 11a to 2p each day, and exhibits and >>the marketplace will be open from 2p to 6p. Admission is $5 per day >>for access to the whole event, and kids 17 and under get in for free. >> >>For more details, and to sign up as a last-minute exhbitor or vendor, >>please see the official VCF/Midwest 3.0 website at: >>http://www.vintage.org/2007/midwest/index.php >> >>If you have any questions, feel free to send me a message at: >>vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. >> >>This year's VCF/Midwest is being sponsored by the Rosen Center for >>Advanced Computing at Purdue University - http://www.rcac.purdue.edu >> >>Pat >>-- >>Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >>The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 12 02:17:21 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:17:21 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs - OT radio References: <0JL100FBOBRE6WS1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4695D582.7A9ABBF0@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >Well I found this surfing last night. Fet + Pnp = Strange radio. > >http://www.schmarder.com/radios/solidstate/homodyne.htm > > > > That is a simple DC coupled amp that is used to first amplify RF then > the detected audio is passed through again. The fet is for high input > impedence and the transistor is for increased gain. Other wise know as > a reflex receiver. (And is actually a circuit dating from the 20's or earlier when designers were trying to maximise the benefit from each vacuum tube. Common as a one-tube radio design.) (Oh-oh, going OT). From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 03:43:33 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:43:33 +0100 Subject: Looking for 5251 manuals In-Reply-To: <003a01c7c42b$964ff9d0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <003a01c7c42b$964ff9d0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: It helps if you say who made the 5251 and what it is to help people dive into their manual stacks Dsve Caroline On 7/12/07, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for the switch settings and/or a service manual to indicate what > the switches on the back of my 5251 do. Anyone have this data? > > Thanks > > Julian > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 08:07:45 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:07:45 -0400 Subject: Looking for 5251 manuals In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c7c42b$964ff9d0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <469627A1.5000904@gmail.com> Dave Caroline wrote: > It helps if you say who made the 5251 and what it is to help people > dive into their manual stacks I would guess IBM 5251 Twinax Terminal. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 12 08:39:52 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:39:52 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs - OT radio In-Reply-To: <0JL100FBOBRE6WS1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: >From: Allison > > > > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs - OT radio > > From: woodelf > > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:52:31 -0600 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > >Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > >> Since a lot of parts like UJTs aren't ax commonly available as they >used to be > >> I poked around some and found stuff online as to how one might "make" >one > >> using a complementary pair of transistors. Couple each base to the >other > >> one's collector, and you have an SCR, an SCS, or a PUT, depending >on how > >> you wire it up. Not all that much difference between them... :-) > > > >Well I found this surfing last night. Fet + Pnp = Strange radio. > >http://www.schmarder.com/radios/solidstate/homodyne.htm > > > >That is a simple DC coupled amp that is used to first amplify RF then >the detected audio is passed through again. The fet is for high input >impedence and the transistor is for increased gain. Other wise know as >a reflex receiver. > Hi No, it looks a little like that but it is not a reflex. It is a homodyne. It uses feed back to cause oscillation of the first stage that zero beats the incoming RF. This makes the reciever very selective. The signal isn't rectified until it goes to the audio stage. The two circuits are similar. I've seen the combination of homodyne and reflex as well. These are usually just called reflex. Another similar method of getting selectivity is to make a super-regenerative. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 12 11:30:24 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:30:24 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs - OT radio References: Message-ID: <46965720.30CDBE28@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > >From: Allison > > >Subject: Re: TTL homebrew CPUs - OT radio > > > From: woodelf > > >Well I found this surfing last night. Fet + Pnp = Strange radio. > > >http://www.schmarder.com/radios/solidstate/homodyne.htm > > > > > > >That is a simple DC coupled amp that is used to first amplify RF then > >the detected audio is passed through again. The fet is for high input > >impedence and the transistor is for increased gain. Other wise know as > >a reflex receiver. > > > Hi > No, it looks a little like that but it is not a reflex. It is a homodyne. > It uses feed back to cause oscillation of the first stage that zero > beats the incoming RF. This makes the reciever very selective. > The signal isn't rectified until it goes to the audio stage. > The two circuits are similar. I've seen the combination of homodyne > and reflex as well. These are usually just called reflex. > Another similar method of getting selectivity is to make a > super-regenerative. > Dwight Brent Hilpert wrote: > (And is actually a circuit dating from the 20's or earlier when designers were > trying to maximise the benefit from each vacuum tube. Common as a one-tube radio > design.) (Oh-oh, going OT). Not wishing to drag this OT topic out, but in light of Dwight's point and for the sake of accuracy I should note that my comment was restricted to Allison's mention of the reflex circuit. (I hadn't actually looked at the link.) (Having done so, it can't be a reflex as there is no feedback post-detection.) From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Jul 12 02:48:36 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:48:36 +0200 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4695DCD4.9030604@iais.fraunhofer.de> Tony Duell schrieb: >>> Or with a bit more effort you can utilize the same effect with a NIC >>> >> Negative Impedance Converter? >> Exactly. >> Network Interface Card? I'd like to see that... >> The electronic circuitry talked abaout here is decades older than network cards. > I would have thought most Network Interface Cards contained enough > circuitry to flash an LED :-). The problem might be getting access to > it,.as it's likely to be hidden inside large chips... > > >>> or a gyrator. >>> > > A reciprocal impedance converter circuit. Basically, you connect an > impedance to one side of a gyratorm, and the other side appears (to the > rest of the circuit) to be 1/. It can make capacitors > look like inductors and vice versa. > > You can make one using an op-amp. > Or with two NICs, or with about 5 or 6 transistors. The version you get with a single OpAmp is assymmetric, it has different g-factors on each port. With the Real One(tm) the two ports can be swapped. This is sometimes necessary in filter circuits. The g factor you mentioned above is actually 1/^2 which means you get pretty large inductors from small capacitors. The transformation from a coil to a capacitor is rather uncommon because it will produce pretty small capacitors from huge inductors, and more important, the quality is lousy as it is very difficult to produce high-Q coils with high inductivity. -- Holger From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jul 12 12:30:20 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:30:20 -0500 Subject: Great little slide show on memories In-Reply-To: <4692C2C3.2010200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46925A2A.21113.19258EAE@cclist.sydex.com> <4692C2C3.2010200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4696652C.1070702@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On the IEEE Spectrum web site: >> >> http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jul07/5337 >> >> It'd be fun to have the book that's mentioned in the text. > Yuck !!! I have to download a *PLUG IN* just to read the > page. Your loss; some of the pictures are really well shot. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Jul 12 12:55:21 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:55:21 -0500 Subject: Looking for 5251 manuals In-Reply-To: <469627A1.5000904@gmail.com> References: <003a01c7c42b$964ff9d0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <469627A1.5000904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003701c7c4ad$d1065d30$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Yes, sorry, it's an IBM 5251 Display Station. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 8:08 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for 5251 manuals > > Dave Caroline wrote: > > It helps if you say who made the 5251 and what it is to help people > > dive into their manual stacks > > I would guess IBM 5251 Twinax Terminal. > > Peace... Sridhar > From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Jul 12 13:18:42 2007 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:18:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for 5251 manuals In-Reply-To: <003a01c7c42b$964ff9d0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <003a01c7c42b$964ff9d0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <46967082.2030100@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Julian Wolfe wrote: > I'm looking for the switch settings and/or a service manual to indicate what > the switches on the back of my 5251 do. Anyone have this data? Julian: I hold in my hand SY31-0461-4 IBM 5251 Display Station Models 1 and 11 Maintenance Information and Maintenance Analysis Procedures Manual S131-0620-5 IBM 5251 Display Station Models 1 and 11 Parts Catalog GN21-3014 IBM 5250 Information Display System Planning and Site Preparation Guid I have no need for these... if you'd like them shoot me an email with your mailing address and I'll send them off to you. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGlnCCCFu3bIiwtTARArG8AJ9gmNwQM6UNy9rruO2Do6iCd4wugACgn3H/ B9fdaNg/baQRtBqLzKwlg4E= =cv0l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From marvin at west.net Thu Jul 12 13:23:11 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:23:11 -0700 Subject: Bondwell Model 91 Message-ID: <4696718F.D2E73538@west.net> I just picked up a Bondwell Model 91 today, and have been unable to find any information about it on the web. A picture of it is at: http://www.west.net/~marvin/bondwell.jpg Anyone know anything about it? I am guessing it is part of an early televideo conferencing system since it has a camera mounted to the top. The "logo" on the bottom left says BWX compatible. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 13:53:53 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:53:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469510AF.25504.4435068@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 11, 7 05:17:35 pm Message-ID: > Why not use a couple of Eveready 415 45 volt batteries? They're > still made, the last I checked. Service life should be shelf life. Ease of getting them. O can get 9V (PP3/006P/6F22/whatever they're called this week) batteries almost anywhere. I don't know a UK supplier for 45V batteries (even the 22.5V ones [1] are getting hard to find). I don't fancy gettign a couple of batteries shipped acorss the Pond every time I need them ]1] Called 'Photoflash' or 'Hearing Aid' batteries in the old books. The fomrer because they were used to charage a capacitor of About 100uF to fire the old single-shot flash bulbs. The latter becuase they were used to provide the HT+ (B+) voltage for valved hearing aids. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 13:50:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:50:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4695084D.9559.4229323@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 11, 7 04:41:49 pm Message-ID: > As long as we're discussing antique technology, why not a vibrator > and step-up transformer? Then one can recitfy the AC by means of an Why notuse asynchonous vibrator (yes, I know, they malfunction all the time ;-)) > aluminum-borax rectifier. What the heck, a 9v transistor radio > battery is too new, anyway. How about some crowfoot cells? Well, if you stick to the zinc-carbon 9V batteries (about the only sort you'll find at 3-for-a-pounds I think), then they're a direct descendant of the Leclanche' cell. So they're not really too-new technology -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 13:56:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:56:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 11, 7 09:44:06 pm Message-ID: > > > At one time one could get three terminal neon lamps. These could be > > used for many logic functions reliably since they always had on electrode > > with ionized gas on it. > > You still can. They are called Krytrons, are expensive, DAMN fast, and > are export controlled. There were also some sloower ones called 'Trigger Tubes', which AFAIK have no export restrictions (they are not suitable for that use, far too slow) but can be used for logic, etc. > > Used for opening cans of sunshine. Now that's an interesting way of putting it :-) -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 14:16:24 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:16:24 -0400 Subject: Great little slide show on memories In-Reply-To: <4696652C.1070702@oldskool.org> References: <46925A2A.21113.19258EAE@cclist.sydex.com> <4692C2C3.2010200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4696652C.1070702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > Your loss; some of the pictures are really well shot. Philco was not the Philadelphia Electric Company, as one of the descriptions states. Philco was the Philadelphia Storage Battery Company. -- Will From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jul 12 14:35:07 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:35:07 -0500 Subject: Great little slide show on memories In-Reply-To: References: <46925A2A.21113.19258EAE@cclist.sydex.com> <4692C2C3.2010200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4696652C.1070702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4696826B.6090707@oldskool.org> William Donzelli wrote: >> Your loss; some of the pictures are really well shot. > > Philco was not the Philadelphia Electric Company, as one of the > descriptions states. Philco was the Philadelphia Storage Battery > Company. I said they were shot well, not accurate ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 12 14:57:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:57:45 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4695084D.9559.4229323@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 11, 7 04:41:49 pm, Message-ID: <46962549.30032.87BC3A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2007 at 19:50, Tony Duell wrote: > Why notuse asynchonous vibrator (yes, I know, they malfunction all the > time ;-)) That would make a great trivia question. "I have here a power transformer rated for operation at 115 Hz. What is it used for?" Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 12 15:07:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:07:45 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469510AF.25504.4435068@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 11, 7 05:17:35 pm, Message-ID: <469627A1.6694.884ED81@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2007 at 19:53, Tony Duell wrote: > ]1] Called 'Photoflash' or 'Hearing Aid' batteries in the old books. The > fomrer because they were used to charage a capacitor of About 100uF to > fire the old single-shot flash bulbs. Now, I thought that the "photoflash" appellation was due to their being used in early photo strobe flashes. I can still remember lugging around a Honeywell Strobonar that used a pack holding two rather large 225v batteries--attached to the strobe head attached to my Rolliflex. Recycling time was very fast--most sports photographers wouldn't have been without them. There were also 510 volt batteries for more compact flashes. Tying this into glow tubes, I recall a slave unit that used a phototube and a cold-cathode "trigger tube", which must be the first cousin to a Krytron. It seems to me that there was an NE-something wire-lead bulb with 3 electrodes. Anyone have a reference manual at hand? On a very tangential topic, I note that the illuminated wall switches and dimmers in my house are slowly giving up their neon ghosts. Is there a commodity LED part that can run from the 120v mains? The LED "night lights" all seem to use a resistor a couple of capacitors and a couple of diodes to drive an LED. Too much to squeeze into a standard outlet box along with the switch. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 12 15:21:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:21:30 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469510AF.25504.4435068@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 11, 7 05:17:35 pm, Message-ID: <46962ADA.13671.89182B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2007 at 19:53, Tony Duell wrote: > Ease of getting them. O can get 9V (PP3/006P/6F22/whatever they're called > this week) batteries almost anywhere. I don't know a UK supplier for > 45V batteries (even the 22.5V ones [1] are getting hard to find). I > don't fancy gettign a couple of batteries shipped acorss the Pond every > time I need them. Well, now you do! http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/ I recall reading about a turn-of-the-century pipe organ that used wet Leclanch? cells to power the key action (before being boosted by pneumatic means). The zinc anodes were attached to a board that was operated by a bellows. The anodes were lowered into the cells only when there was sufficiient air to operate the instrument. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Jul 12 15:25:56 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:25:56 -0700 Subject: Useful Information Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C72A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Al recently posted a useful manual for collectors. It is called the Fujitsu Sales Prospector 1986. I say useful because it contains a summary of all the industry's storage peripheral products available in 1986. Basic specs and some detailed specs on units. So, for example, if you need to know the differences between different Rodime hard drive models, that data should be there. At the end are several Fujitsu data sheets, on 5.25" and 8" hard drives and the 243X tape units. A handy manual for high level data on the state of the industry at that time. Billy From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Jul 12 15:35:31 2007 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:35:31 +0100 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) References: Message-ID: <005f01c7c4c4$339fe720$0600a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Tony Duell" > > > > > At one time one could get three terminal neon lamps. These could be > > > used for many logic functions reliably since they always had on electrode > > > with ionized gas on it. > > > > You still can. They are called Krytrons, are expensive, DAMN fast, and > > are export controlled. > > There were also some sloower ones called 'Trigger Tubes', which AFAIK > have no export restrictions (they are not suitable for that use, far too > slow) but can be used for logic, etc. > You can also look out for tetrode thyratrons - these have an extra electrode that can be used to control the trigger point to some extent. The are available as heated and cold cathode versions. Jim. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 16:09:46 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:09:46 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46962549.30032.87BC3A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4695084D.9559.4229323@cclist.sydex.com> <46962549.30032.87BC3A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > That would make a great trivia question. "I have here a power > transformer rated for operation at 115 Hz. What is it used for?" Gyrocompasses. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 16:17:51 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:17:51 -0400 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: <005f01c7c4c4$339fe720$0600a8c0@p2deskto> References: <005f01c7c4c4$339fe720$0600a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: > You can also look out for tetrode thyratrons - these have an extra electrode > that can be used to control the trigger point to some extent. The are > available as heated and cold cathode versions. These are used extensively in IBM unit record equipment. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 12 16:47:15 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:47:15 -0700 Subject: Great little slide show on memories References: <46925A2A.21113.19258EAE@cclist.sydex.com> <4692C2C3.2010200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4696652C.1070702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4696A164.92255C01@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > Your loss; some of the pictures are really well shot. > > Philco was not the Philadelphia Electric Company, as one of the > descriptions states. Philco was the Philadelphia Storage Battery > Company. Funny, I saw the pictures but didn't see any descriptions or text. (!*#$! browser software - I wish people would just stick with straightforward html for this sort of basic stuff instead of trying to get all sophisticated.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 16:50:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:50:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469627A1.6694.884ED81@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 12, 7 01:07:45 pm Message-ID: > > On 12 Jul 2007 at 19:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > > ]1] Called 'Photoflash' or 'Hearing Aid' batteries in the old books. The > > fomrer because they were used to charage a capacitor of About 100uF to > > fire the old single-shot flash bulbs. > > Now, I thought that the "photoflash" appellation was due to their > being used in early photo strobe flashes. I can still remember I did read of an early gas-discharge flash unit that used 8 30V batteries in series to get the high voltage [Totally useless bit of trivia. In the UK there were 2 series of these batteries : B154 (15V), B155 (22.5V), B156 (30V). These were ssqare in cross-section, the side of the square being about the same as the diameter of an AA cell. The B155 was actually about the same length as an AA cell too) B121 (15V, B122 (22.5V), B123 (30V), These were rectanglar in cross-section, width about twice the thickness. The thickness and length were about the same as the equivalent-voltage version in the other series] Certainly in the Europe, many bulb-type flashguns used 22.5V (or 15V) batteries in what was commonly called the 'battery-capacitor circuit). The simplest form was this : 3k-ish Flashbulb +----/\/\/---------+-------(X)---------+ | | | ------- | | --- | ===== 100uF-ish ------- 22.5V o ----- --- \ Shutter | | o \ contact | | | | +------------------+-------------------+ When there's no flashbulb inserted, there is no load on the battery at all, not even leakage through the capacitor. When you insert a bulb, the capacitor charges to the battery voltage through the bulb and the 3k resistor, the latter limiting the currrnet so that the bulb doesn't fire. When you take the picturem, the cynchronisation contacts in the shutter close, connecting the capacitor diresctly across the flashbulb and causing it to ignite. Some flash units had a test lamp that indicated the flashbulb was good -- that the ignition filament was intact. The normal way this was done was to connect a small lamp in series with a push switch aross the capacitor. Pressing said switch would discharge the capacitor through the test lamp, causing the latter to light briefly if the capacitor was charged. That would only happen if the flashbulb was intact. > lugging around a Honeywell Strobonar that used a pack holding two > rather large 225v batteries--attached to the strobe head attached to > my Rolliflex. Recycling time was very fast--most sports > photographers wouldn't have been without them. There were also 510 > volt batteries for more compact flashes. Indeed, and those were used until quite recently (say 20 years ago). I've seen a 'Sunpack' flash unit which has an extermnal PSU conenctor (connected IIRC, to the terminals of the main capacitor through a diode and limiting resisotr). Listed accessories included a mains power pack and a battery holder for a 510V battery. The advantage of this was a very quick recharge time, of course. >From what I've read (and, alas, I don;t have any ancient gas-discharge flash yuniots), there were basically 4 tuypes of paower pack used to get the high voltage (a few hundred volts) for the flash tube : 1) Mains transformer + rectifier 2) Battery + Vibrator + transformer. The Battery was often a wet-cell lead-acid accumulator 3) HV battery 4) Transistorised oscillator + transformer (once transistors were in common use) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 16:52:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:52:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: <005f01c7c4c4$339fe720$0600a8c0@p2deskto> from "Jim Beacon" at Jul 12, 7 09:35:31 pm Message-ID: > You can also look out for tetrode thyratrons - these have an extra electrode > that can be used to control the trigger point to some extent. The are > available as heated and cold cathode versions. IIRC, the very common 2D21 (EN91 in Europe) is a hot cathode tetrode xenon thyratron. -tony From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Thu Jul 12 16:55:33 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:55:33 +0100 Subject: BCS at 50 Message-ID: <1184277333.14900.28.camel@ljw.me.uk> I've uploaded some photos from the BCS at 50 event at Bletchley Park today. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157600782178592/ It was a good day with interesting talks from Tony Sale, John Pether and John Harper. We got to see both the completed Colossus rebuild and the completed Bombe rebuild operating. Friday and Saturday the event continues in London. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 12 16:46:51 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:46:51 -0500 Subject: UK computer history gets new home In-Reply-To: <92A2D4E3-4A8F-4E4B-9EEB-F282760A3350@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> References: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <92A2D4E3-4A8F-4E4B-9EEB-F282760A3350@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> Message-ID: <4696A14B.6070408@yahoo.co.uk> Stroller wrote: > Reading about Bletchley Park I'm never quite sure quite how the heck it > rose from the bunch of derelict concrete prefabs I knew as a (1970s) > child to the acknowledged symbol of computing history that it now is. Half the site's still a bunch of derelict concrete prefabs... :-) I think plans are afoot for the Park themselves to do something with C Block (the one by the new entrance that looks like "IIIE" from the air). The building's a mess, though - there's even a fairly substantial tree growing on the roof! D Block's leased by English Partnerships these days and they want to sub-let bits of it (either for museum-related activities, or for archival purposes - I've heard both). Needs a heck of a lot of work internally to get it up to scratch, though - but at least it's been re-roofed and stabilised now. G Block's fate is unknown - I think the property developers who are building the housing estate on the old ATC site might own that one. I don't think it's got listed status unfortunately... Some of the Huts have been restored, as has B Block, and of course we'll be taking over the whole of H. Hut 4 (beside the mansion) has just been restored and turned back into catering facilities. That still leaves various Huts around the site that need a lot of TLC, though. > Enough kudos to them - if there is a publicly-funded British National > Museum of Computing, I think it's likely to be at Bletchley Park. It was almost at Waltham Abbey for a while... some of the politics in the past at the Park have been horrible. The new guy in charge seems to have his head screwed on right, thankfully. > I was disappointed to read praise of his wartime efforts > but no mention of how he was subsequently hounded to suicide. I feel > this to be a series of events of which we should all be ashamed and > equal in signifiance to his mathematical achievements, yet half a > century later it is still swept under the carpet. :( I don't know, I think it's pretty common knowledge as to how he was treated post-war. I think I'd much rather he was remembered for all the great achievements, rather than for all the nasty stuff that went on later. What gets me a little is the comparative lack of recognition that all the others working on projects like Colossus have received; Turing still gets publicity (rightly so), but not much ever gets said about all the others who were contributing effort and ideas. Anyway, things went well today I think - everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves (and more importantly, there were no mishaps with any of the vintage hardware :-) cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 17:03:33 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:03:33 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <4695084D.9559.4229323@cclist.sydex.com> <46962549.30032.87BC3A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4696A535.6030309@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> That would make a great trivia question. "I have here a power >> transformer rated for operation at 115 Hz. What is it used for?" > > Gyrocompasses. Adaptive butt-plugs? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 12 17:18:15 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4696A535.6030309@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jul 12, 7 06:03:33 pm" Message-ID: <200707122218.l6CMIFrR011312@floodgap.com> > > > That would make a great trivia question. "I have here a power > > > transformer rated for operation at 115 Hz. What is it used for?" > > Gyrocompasses. > Adaptive butt-plugs? You're buying me a new keyboard, man. They don't work so well with Mr Pibb sprayed in them. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Spacecraft ----------------- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jul 12 17:25:33 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3com 3c509b cards Message-ID: I have a couple 3c509b ethernet boards for 16-bit ISA busses. Anyone want them? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Jul 12 17:25:44 2007 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:25:44 +0100 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) References: Message-ID: <007301c7c4d3$9672d4c0$0600a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Tony Duell" > > You can also look out for tetrode thyratrons - these have an extra electrode > > that can be used to control the trigger point to some extent. The are > > available as heated and cold cathode versions. > > IIRC, the very common 2D21 (EN91 in Europe) is a hot cathode tetrode > xenon thyratron. > Yes, I've used these for a few experiments with oscillators and frequency dividers - never seem to get much effect from the second grid though - I suspect I need better regulated supplies, but it may come into its own in ring counter circuits. Jim. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 12 17:39:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:39:03 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469627A1.6694.884ED81@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 12, 7 01:07:45 pm, Message-ID: <46964B17.8354.90F708A@cclist.sydex.com> > 1) Mains transformer + rectifier > 2) Battery + Vibrator + transformer. The Battery was often a wet-cell > lead-acid accumulator > 3) HV battery > 4) Transistorised oscillator + transformer (once transistors were in > common use) I recall using two Dormeyer strobe units--one using a traditional 510v battery pack and the other using a lead-acid battery (encased in stainless steel) and vibrator that also had a 115vac connector for a line cord. Recycling time was slow with mains power and incredibly slow with battery power. I do remember the "miniature camera" 22.5v photoflash, but to my knowledge, the standard "press photographer" flash units that used large incandescent-lamp-sized bulbs all took D cells. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 12 18:26:09 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:26:09 +0100 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46962ADA.13671.89182B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <469510AF.25504.4435068@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 11, 7 05:17:35 pm, <46962ADA.13671.89182B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4696B891.5030005@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/07/2007 21:21, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Jul 2007 at 19:53, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Ease of getting them. O can get 9V (PP3/006P/6F22/whatever they're called >> this week) batteries almost anywhere. I don't know a UK supplier for >> 45V batteries (even the 22.5V ones [1] are getting hard to find). I >> don't fancy gettign a couple of batteries shipped acorss the Pond every >> time I need them. > > Well, now you do! > > http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/ I've bought stuff from them. They're not the cheapest, but they're not OTT, and they do have a good range. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 18:52:39 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:52:39 -0400 Subject: UK computer history gets new home In-Reply-To: <4696A14B.6070408@yahoo.co.uk> References: <071120071634.27548.469506A5000BDDB600006B9C22007348409DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <92A2D4E3-4A8F-4E4B-9EEB-F282760A3350@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> <4696A14B.6070408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > What gets me a little is the comparative lack of recognition that all the > others working on projects like Colossus have received; Turing still gets > publicity (rightly so), but not much ever gets said about all the others who > were contributing effort and ideas. This is a very common problem, especially when dealing with wartime technologies and who gets the credit. Two of the big factors are state secrecy, and the old saying "the victor writes the history books". For the former, one can look at the breaking of the Japanese codes (purple being the most famous). The Enigma and Lorenz stories are now pretty much out in the open and declassified, but the Japanese stuff is still locked up in secrecy. Under the veil of secrecy, the guys that did the work can not get the credit. For the latter, one can see just how little (almost no) credit is given to the Axis powers. There is very credible evidence that Allied codes were broken during World War 2. It is likely the Germans had some sort of equivalent of Bletchley, but is probably forever lost. The Allies were not about to give credit to the Axis engineers. Many still will not. It is bothers you - then speak up. Give the guys credit. Spread the word. They deserve it. -- Will From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jul 12 18:55:54 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:55:54 -0700 Subject: Four IBM 3420 tape drives and one 3803 controller In-Reply-To: <4695AC1E.7060304@sbcglobal.net> References: , <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> <4695AC1E.7060304@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4696BF8A.4050105@msm.umr.edu> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > There are four nice looking IBM 3420 tape drives with the controller > and manuals up on Dovebid: > the 3803's control panel has been cut out. I checked with another guy to be sure it wasn't on the other side and he pointed out the blue you see is the doors on the other side of the cabinet, with yellow hanging down being cut wiring. real shame to see this on Dovebid w/o a warning. Hope the 3420's aren't just doorstops that look nice as well. Jim From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jul 12 19:33:00 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:33:00 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... It's running again!!! In-Reply-To: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200707121733.00397.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 10 July 2007 12:04, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Factoid: Many TI chips produced during 1975-77 period had very thin "legs" > and poor tinning. When they were wave soldered, the solder offered them > protection. However, when they were socketed (as in the MODCOMP) they had > very little protection from the environment. They would rust and eventually > fail. > --snip-- I've now replaced all the "nasty" TI chips in the MODCOMP II CPU planes and, as needed, in the Memory planes. The total number of chips replaced was about 297 (I may have missed a few). I'd been testing with short hand-written diagnostics as I went along - and could see the system getting "better and better" as I proceded (with a few "relapses'). I can now load a linking loader and diagnostics via the loader. Memory diags run w/o failure (including tests of "protect" mode) - YEAH!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: Here are some thoughts for anyone deciding to take on a massive project like this: 1) Inventory your chip requirements. Add enough chips for spares and fails (not all new/pull chips are going to work). 2) Obtain all the chips you'll need up front from your "stash" and buying as required. Bag or box them in numeric order near the system. In my case, I needed to acquire a lot of chips - as I had very few 74H and 74S series in stock - and the "fast" MODCOMP II needed scads of them. 3) I only replaced about a dozen chips at a time before running a basic diagnostic. It turns out that replacing too many chips at once can create diagnostic nightmares. 4) I used fine tweezers or a safety pin to remove broken legs from the chip sockets. I then used a strong magnet (Neodymium) to make sure I got all the legs, etc. of the broken chips picked up and away from the planes. 5) I make it a practice to have a log for every system I restore. In the case of replacing so many chips, it is even more essential to log every chip you replace and every "hand" diagnostic written and each result. (a) Whenever I replaced a chip, I noted the location and chip type replaced (b) Whenever I could "skip" replacement (It had been done previously, etc.) I noted the fact with a "circle" around the location. Besides documenting my progress, the above was very helpful when testing - as I knew immediately which chips were likely "suspects". 5) Take plenty of breaks. Replacing hundreds of chips requires a steady hand and a lot of patience. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jul 12 18:40:39 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Burroughs B220 In-Reply-To: <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Does anyone know of a Burroughs B220 Datatron system still in existence? Or at the least, the console from a B220? I would be interested in getting some good pictures of one, especially the console. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 12 20:18:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:18:22 -0700 Subject: Bondwell Model 91 In-Reply-To: <4696718F.D2E73538@west.net> References: <4696718F.D2E73538@west.net> Message-ID: <4696706E.28459.9A14AFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2007 at 11:23, Marvin Johnston wrote: > http://www.west.net/~marvin/bondwell.jpg > > Anyone know anything about it? I am guessing it is part of an early televideo > conferencing system since it has a camera mounted to the top. The "logo" on the > bottom left says BWX compatible. This unit has the look of part of a security installation (wall- mounted unit, basic black, camera made to look straight back at the caller). Just a guess...does it function as a normal telephone? Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 12 20:45:01 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:45:01 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B220 Message-ID: <4696D91D.60308@bitsavers.org> > I would be interested in getting some good pictures of one, especially the console. I just put a bunch of scans up under bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/B220/brochure that should give you a good idea of what the machine looked like. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 12 21:59:21 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:59:21 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > > You can also look out for tetrode thyratrons - these have an extra >electrode > > that can be used to control the trigger point to some extent. The are > > available as heated and cold cathode versions. > >IIRC, the very common 2D21 (EN91 in Europe) is a hot cathode tetrode >xenon thyratron. > >-tony I've seen these but what I was talking about was a three lead in a NE2 type package. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 12 23:46:20 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:46:20 -0600 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4697039C.6060809@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > I've seen these but what I was talking about was a three lead in > a NE2 type package. > Dwight Something like here or here? http://www.vintagecalculators.com/BellPunch/html/the_technology_explained.html#ColdCathodeTube http://www.sgitheach.dsl.pipex.com/nixie3.html From ed at ed-thelen.org Fri Jul 13 00:22:03 2007 From: ed at ed-thelen.org (Ed Thelen) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:22:03 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <073e01c7c50d$c19ae8b0$0200a8c0@TIGERTV> Drifting from TTL homebrew computers into NE-2 relaxation oscillators - The year Sputnik went up - October 1957 - I built a Sputnik oriented Christmas tree ornament for my sister. The "earth" was 3" transparent plastic tube cylinder barely large enough to hold a selenium rectifier, small electrolytic capacitor, 47K resistors and disk capacitors. The transparent tube orbit had three support tubes, and contained the seven NE-2 gas tubes. I thought it cute but was disappointed that the start-up and operation was so unpredictable. Direction of rotation and number of satellites was variable. But my sister was delighted, and has it to this day - but it now goes on the tree only when I visit. Time has been unkind. The gleaming wires have turned ugly black, the plastic yellowed, the lamp cord dried and cracked, and I forget if it still works ... . From rthelen at madscientistroom.org Fri Jul 13 00:31:26 2007 From: rthelen at madscientistroom.org (Randy Thelen) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:31:26 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <073e01c7c50d$c19ae8b0$0200a8c0@TIGERTV> References: <073e01c7c50d$c19ae8b0$0200a8c0@TIGERTV> Message-ID: <6FA76679-1823-4466-AB7E-71B7F8C5F00D@madscientistroom.org> Ed Thelen wrote: > But my sister was delighted, and has it to this day - > but it now goes on the tree only when I visit. > > Time has been unkind. The gleaming wires have turned ugly > black, the plastic yellowed, the lamp cord dried and cracked, > and I forget if it still works ... . I disagree about how time has treated it and you: Your sister still has it and you still remember it; time has been good. :-) -- Randy From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jul 13 02:15:58 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 03:15:58 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707130315.58953.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 11 July 2007 14:04, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Jul 2007 at 12:58, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > And that 90V battery was probably the single biggest reason why I never > > built one of those... > > Somewhere, online, I ran across a reproduction of an entire booklet > on neon-bulb applications. I'll see if I can remember where... I ran across such a book, I think from GE maybe? It was a PDF file, and the reproduction was pretty bad, though, hard for me to read. Let's see, I have "Application of Neon Lamps and Gas Discharge Tubes", Edward Bauman, Signalite Corp., which is twelve chapters. "General Electric Glow Tube Manual: Theory, Circuits, Ratings", "Philips Gas-Discharge Tubes Data Book (1964)" are a few that show up on a quick peek. Gotta get my LAN back up and functioning here sometime soon...! :-) BTW, one of the things that's on my list of stuff to get to besides my parts pages is a "technical books" area as well. I've got this immense pile of downloaded material, and was plugging it into my local HTML tree a while back, and need to go through that and extract just tech stuff from the pile and built another online resource like the parts pages, when I can find the time... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jul 13 02:26:54 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 03:26:54 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200707130326.54365.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 11 July 2007 16:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > And that 90V battery was probably the single biggest reason why I never > > b= uilt=20 > > one of those... > > Back when I built mine, 90V batteries were still fairly easy to obtain. > Nowadays, I'd probably go to the local 'pound shop' and buy 10 cheap 9V > batteries and link them in series. The current drawn is so low that even > cheap-n-nasty 9V batteries would last quite a time. Yes, I remember that "nonsense box" (or whatever it was that they called it, something of that sort) saying that the battery life in there would essentiallly be the shelf life of the battery, or darn close to it. Several years, at least. Dunno if I'd want to gang up ten of them, though. > IMHO it's cheating to use a step-up switching regulator IC. If you've got > one of those, you can get a 555 timer ;-) :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jul 13 02:37:07 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 03:37:07 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46957524.6010609@gmail.com> References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> <469510AF.25504.4435068@cclist.sydex.com> <46957524.6010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707130337.07202.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 11 July 2007 20:26, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 11 Jul 2007 at 19:30, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> I was thinking of the same 3D structure you were thinking. In fact, I > >> have used a bundle of 10Ohm resistors in parallel wired to a bunch of 9V > >> batteries in parallel to ignite a chemical fuse in a timed explosive. > > > > Why not use a couple of Eveready 415 45 volt batteries? They're > > still made, the last I checked. Service life should be shelf life. > > Cost. Bingo! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jul 13 02:44:41 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 03:44:41 -0400 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: <005f01c7c4c4$339fe720$0600a8c0@p2deskto> References: <005f01c7c4c4$339fe720$0600a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <200707130344.41301.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 12 July 2007 16:35, Jim Beacon wrote: > From: "Tony Duell" > > > > > At one time one could get three terminal neon lamps. These could be > > > > used for many logic functions reliably since they always had on > > electrode > > > > > with ionized gas on it. > > > > > > You still can. They are called Krytrons, are expensive, DAMN fast, and > > > are export controlled. > > > > There were also some sloower ones called 'Trigger Tubes', which AFAIK > > have no export restrictions (they are not suitable for that use, far too > > slow) but can be used for logic, etc. > > You can also look out for tetrode thyratrons - these have an extra > electrode that can be used to control the trigger point to some extent. The > are available as heated and cold cathode versions. Many of these tubes are listed here: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/tube.html :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Jul 13 03:19:06 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:19:06 +0100 Subject: Great little slide show on memories In-Reply-To: <4696A164.92255C01@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46925A2A.21113.19258EAE@cclist.sydex.com> <4692C2C3.2010200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4696652C.1070702@oldskool.org> <4696A164.92255C01@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707130119h14b9a1c0k63ca19f2a561d35a@mail.gmail.com> On 12/07/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Funny, I saw the pictures but didn't see any descriptions or text. > (!*#$! browser software - I wish people would just stick with > straightforward html for this sort of basic stuff instead of trying > to get all sophisticated.) > There was a scrolling text box underneath them for me (Opera 9.20 on Win2K) which was a pain, as you had to scroll down to read the description, then on next picture, tet started ok, but scrollbar was at the end?! So click to go down and it jumped to the end, so had to scroll back to the top.... argh!! So yes, stick to HTML please people! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 13 08:45:59 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 06:45:59 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: <4697039C.6060809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >From: woodelf > >dwight elvey wrote: > >>I've seen these but what I was talking about was a three lead in >>a NE2 type package. >>Dwight >Something like here or here? >http://www.vintagecalculators.com/BellPunch/html/the_technology_explained.html#ColdCathodeTube > >http://www.sgitheach.dsl.pipex.com/nixie3.html > Hi No, these truly looked just like a three lead NE2. The leads were inline. The center was the anode and the two outer ones were cathodes. It worked similar to the dekatron shown, although these use two transfer cathode electrodes between each digit. When biased right, only the right or the left cathode could be lit. One could steer which was lit by pulsing each. These stored state. As a note on the dekatron, these were used in some of the early HP counters. They were used as the first, or highest frequency, state of the counters. They were quite fast! Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Jul 13 09:41:50 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:41:50 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707130337.07202.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net> <469510AF.25504.4435068@cclist.sydex.com> <46957524.6010609@gmail.com> <200707130337.07202.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: In the hopes of bringing this topic back to being on topic with the subject, I found this in my links just yesterday. http://www.homebrewcpu.com/links.htm I think I was looking for the home built cpu awhile ago. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 09:45:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:45:12 -0500 Subject: Great little slide show on memories In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70707130119h14b9a1c0k63ca19f2a561d35a@mail.gmail.com> References: <46925A2A.21113.19258EAE@cclist.sydex.com> <4692C2C3.2010200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4696652C.1070702@oldskool.org> <4696A164.92255C01@cs.ubc.ca> <2f806cd70707130119h14b9a1c0k63ca19f2a561d35a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/07, Rob wrote: > There was a scrolling text box underneath them for me (Opera 9.20 on > Win2K) which was a pain, as you had to scroll down to read the > description, then on next picture, tet started ok, but scrollbar was > at the end?! So click to go down and it jumped to the end, so had to > scroll back to the top.... argh!! Same experience with Firefox and RedHat. Most annoying. Cool pictures, though. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 09:51:25 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:51:25 -0400 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707101847sdabb678k3e88563207ddcabb@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730707101847sdabb678k3e88563207ddcabb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I've just picked up an old Burroughs terminal, model# appears to be > MT-985, and I'm having trouble finding documentation for it. It came > with a manual for the ET-1100 model which provides some clues, but the > key sequences to get into the setup for baud rate, etc appear to be > different. > > Anyone have any experience with these? It's a cute little terminal > and the keyboard has a key lock on it - never seen that before. OK, I just looked and confirmed. The B1955 here uses those MT-985s. If you can get anymore of these, please let me know. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 10:57:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:57:49 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: <4697039C.6060809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4697039C.6060809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46973E8D.23455.CC67493@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2007 at 22:46, woodelf wrote: > http://www.vintagecalculators.com/BellPunch/html/the_technology_explained.html#ColdCathodeTube > > http://www.sgitheach.dsl.pipex.com/nixie3.html Nope--I remember them also. Plain dead-simple NE-2 type package. The application I recall them being used in was as a trigger for a touch-sensitive switch. (They may have been used in security applications also). Coupling stray AC via one's body to the third electrode was sufficient to cause the neon to fire. I've also seen this kind of thing done with 2050 and 2D21 thyratrons also, but the neon bulb would clearly have a power advantage. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 11:00:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:00:49 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707130337.07202.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46957524.6010609@gmail.com>, <200707130337.07202.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46973F41.18548.CC931FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jul 2007 at 3:37, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Cost. > > Bingo! No argument there--they're not cheap. Just trying to get at the truth of the matter. ;-) Cheers, Chuck From starmaster at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 11:30:57 2007 From: starmaster at gmail.com (Star Master) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:30:57 -0600 Subject: Wanted-VAX and items Message-ID: <5736e8250707130930w44ce655g724920e502dda27f@mail.gmail.com> I am looking for a Micro Vax (or any VAX) and/or materials/literature on them. I live about 60 miles south of Denver, and do not have many $$ to invest, but will do what I can. Anyone have any they are willing to part with? I would also dearly love any old Commodore equipment/literature as well! Thank you David From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Jul 13 11:42:38 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:42:38 -0600 Subject: Wanted-VAX and items In-Reply-To: <5736e8250707130930w44ce655g724920e502dda27f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5736e8250707130930w44ce655g724920e502dda27f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4697AB7E.5040809@e-bbes.com> Star Master wrote: > I am looking for a Micro Vax (or any VAX) and/or materials/literature on > them. I live about 60 miles south of Denver, and do not have many $$ to > invest, but will do what I can. > Anyone have any they are willing to part with? what do you need them for ? just truing to figure out, what kind of vax you are looking for ... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 11:52:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:52:44 -0500 Subject: SGI Origin 2000 $600 OBO Message-ID: SGI afficianados, Please contact the original poster, not me. AFAIK, the equipment is located in or near Columbus, OH. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Scott Merrill Date: Jul 13, 2007 9:18 AM Subject: [COLUG] SGI Origin 2000 To: Central OH Linux User Group My former employer is looking to sell their SGI Origin 2000. If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. Silicon Graphics Server 1 Origin 2000 DS 2xR10K195mhz 4 4 CPUs @ 195mhz XIO to VME Adapter, 6U 2 port Fibre Channel XIO Card XIO 4 Port 10/100 Ethernet Card Fiber Channel Vault Array 10 Slot Irix 6.4.1 OS 1 1000mb Network Card 24x CD-Rom Fibre Channel Cables 110 VAC Programming Terminal (crt is damaged however machine is operational) 10 18GB Fibre Channel Raid Disks 3 8.8GB FC Raid Disks 2nd FC Raid Vault 1 9GB Root System Disk 768MB ram Machine is fully functional, Fibre Channel, Raid, 4 port nic and GIGABIT. $600 OBO for the system above, it is definitely a workhorse! -- GPG 9CFA4B35 | skippy at skippy.net | http://skippy.net/ _______________________________________________ colug432 mailing list colug432 at colug.net http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug432 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jul 13 12:17:51 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:17:51 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) References: Message-ID: <4697B3BF.4E124486@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > As a note on the dekatron, these were used in some of the early > HP counters. They were used as the first, or highest frequency, > state of the counters. They were quite fast! > Dwight I beg to differ on this. I have a couple of dekatron counters and they only seem to be good to some 10s of KHz (unless of course, you mean that that was pretty fast for the time). Interestingly, one of these counters uses two types of dekatrons, the only obvious difference between them being the colour of the glow and the part number. The ones in the slower speed decades are the usual neon glow, in the higher speed decade a purplish glow (xenon?). I presume the purplish glow gas ionizes faster than neon. I should try to ascertain more accurately the max rate of the purplish deks but haven't yet as one of the two in the unit is failing. I haven't seen dekatrons in HP counters, I believe their first counter was the 524A and, unless it was radically different than the 524B/C/D, didn't use dekatrons. Certainly the rest of the 520 series was vacuum tube flip-flops (AC-4 modules). From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 13:08:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:08:42 -0700 Subject: Three-terminal neon lamps/thyratrons In-Reply-To: <46973E8D.23455.CC67493@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4697039C.6060809@jetnet.ab.ca>, <46973E8D.23455.CC67493@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46975D3A.8474.D3E4578@cclist.sydex.com> It's pretty tough finding anything other than a reference or two about these beasts, but here's a Russian one: http://www.russiantubes.com/prop.php?t=4&p=15 Bau makes several references to these creatures. I can also recall them being used as switches for audio consoles. There are a couple of 1970's patents that reference them also. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 13 13:32:03 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted-VAX and items In-Reply-To: <5736e8250707130930w44ce655g724920e502dda27f@mail.gmail.com> from "Star Master" at Jul 13, 2007 10:30:57 AM Message-ID: <200707131832.l6DIW3B7025886@onyx.spiritone.com> > I am looking for a Micro Vax (or any VAX) and/or materials/literature on > them. I live about 60 miles south of Denver, and do not have many $$ to > invest, but will do what I can. > Anyone have any they are willing to part with? > > I would also dearly love any old Commodore equipment/literature as well! > Thank you > David > Google USENET (aka Google Groups), for "VAX" and "Denver", ISTR someone in that area recently looking to get rid of a VAX. You could also try asking on comp.os.vms. Zane From charlesmorris at hughes.net Fri Jul 13 14:11:51 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:11:51 -0500 Subject: RL02 Fault, not where you might suspect it Message-ID: <39hf93h8u2iuibmkfjhld010etk9dcadpt@4ax.com> I'm back from vacation (a wonderful time, except that for a week in mid-June southern Europe had an amazing heat wave - 43C/109F during the day in SW Crete, overnight lows around 33C/92F. Rumor has it that Athens saw nearly 50C/122F!). I have resumed work on my 8/A - RL02 - OS/8 system that booted only once (on the second power-up a buffer on the M8315 CPU board which drove memory address bit 4 failed). I'd previously posted my adventures finding that 74367. Anyway having fixed that it still wouldn't boot. The drive would load and the READY light would illuminate, indicating that track 0 had been located. When flipping the BOOT switch, the head could be heard to move, then the FAULT light would go on and the boot loader would hang. I did find that the disk pack had developed a bad block at octal 100, so I remade the image on a new pack with no bad blocks. Same error. So I put the pack in the drive that made it (on my PDP-11/23+) and ran the cable over to the controller. Still no go. I keyed in a couple of short programs and couldn't read the Command Register B properly. Sending one (or a loop of) reset commands (6600 octal) to the drive did not cause the FAULT light to go out - only power cycling the RL02 would clear it. That told me the controller was not communicating with the drive at all. With a few more test programs and the controller on an extender card, it was easy to see that the reset command was not being received, although the IOT 660x signal was. It turned out that the TP3 signal (required for the reset, among many other functions) was low in amplitude, barely 2V at the Omnibus pin CH2 (the other CPU timing pulses TP1,2,4 are well over 3V). The input buffer on the controller card was not responding to this weak pulse. Working backwards, I arrived at the source (E27-6 on the M8315 CPU, a 74120 Pulse Synchronizer). There's a pair of these, E22/E27, driving TP1..4 onto the Omnibus. Nothing obviously fried, but the other three outputs showed about 750 ohms to ground (on my Fluke 73) and the defective one was 57 ohms. Before desoldering the entire chip I confirmed it was defective by lifting pin 6 and it still had very low resistance. So the source of the RL02 FAULT is apparently a bad driver chip on the CPU board. Not where I would have first suspected it. There may well be yet another bad chip, but one error at a time... now I have to lay hands on a 74120 before my next 4 week trip away from home (leaving Sun. 22nd). Would anyone have one or two 74120's that you could drop in the mail tomorrow (I'll be happy to pay for the chip and postage), or point me to a supplier? Neither Mouser, Digikey, Jameco nor Newark have them :( and Unicorn Electronics has a $20 minimum order. thanks for any help -Charles From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 13 14:30:50 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:30:50 -0400 Subject: Bringing up an Altair 680... Message-ID: I've just been given access to an Altair 680. It seems to be in excellent physical condition (no rust, corrosion, dents... just some dust). Has not seen power in many years. All of the ICs are socketed. Due to the fact that the PS is incorporated onto the main board, I was planning the following: 1) Remove the main board from the case, detaching it from the front panel board. 2) Remove (carefully noting their positions) all of the ICs from the main board. 3) Attach dummy loads (24V light bulbs) to the PS at convenient locations. How many should I use? 4) Attach to AC power in this state. Assuming nothing pops, check DC voltage (voltages?) with a scope. Assuming DC looks good, allow to warm up for a few hours. 5) Scope check DC again. Power down allow to cool for a few minutes. Repeat steps 4 and 5 a few times (3? 4?). 6) If all looks good, reinstall all of the "easy to replace" ICs and do 4 and 5 again. 7) If all looks good, reinstall the rest of the ICs, restore the main board to the case and front panel. 8) Debug any logic problems (dead chips, opens, etc.). Does this look reasonable? Thanks, Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.4/898 - Release Date: 7/12/2007 4:08 PM From molists at yahoo.com Fri Jul 13 17:00:56 2007 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free in L.A.: Box of DEC Power, Serial, Printer, Telecom Cables, Adapters, Labels, etc Message-ID: <12638.40266.qm@web43144.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I have a large apple box of about 30-40 official DEC molded cables, i.e. console and null-modem (db9-db25, db25-db25, db25-centronics), printer and extension, as well as some non-DEC, a lot of standard power cords, gender changers, DB25 and DB9 test plugs, also includes three early manual device switches: 4-way RJ11, 4-way DB25, 6-Way DB25, a few classic free toys from McDonalds, and an angry nun. There are also several Avery-Dennison packs of 3.5" floppy disk stickers for 8.5x11 sheet printers, and there may be a set of 5.25" stickers. You pickup. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 17:16:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:16:27 -0700 Subject: Serel 1001 Message-ID: <4697974B.22662.E211641@cclist.sydex.com> I don't recall ever seeing mention of this early French computer before. There's a great deal of photographic and documentary material here: http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/Summary.html Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 13 18:11:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 00:11:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <46964B17.8354.90F708A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 12, 7 03:39:03 pm Message-ID: > > I do remember the "miniature camera" 22.5v photoflash, but to my > knowledge, the standard "press photographer" flash units that used > large incandescent-lamp-sized bulbs all took D cells. Most did, I think. In the UK, GEC (who AFAIK are noting to do with the American GE company) sold special low-ionternal-resistance D-cells (we called them 'U2' size at the time) for this appliocation The problem with directly firing the flashbulb from the battery was that as the battery aged its internal resistance increased. In the end the bulb would fail to fire at all, but before, the lower current throug hthe ignitor fillament meant the bulb took longer to fire, messing up the synchonisation. Probably not a problem on the Speedgraphic/MPP Micropress shutters (large format focal plane shutters that took a good 1/4s to go across the film) Leica sold a flashgun which took ES cap flashbulbs or SCC (single contact small bayonet cap) with an adapter that was supplied with the unit. The original design used a special 6V dry batttery, this was quickly replaced by a holder that took 4 AA cells in series. Then there was a battery/capacitor module (22.5V battery) that fitted in place of that, making contacct with the battery terminals and the metal case of the flashgun (which was the connection between the bulb and sync contact). I've also got a SCC-cap flashgun that seems to have been designed for TLR cameras (from the bracket that came with it). It either uses a pair of C cells or a 22.5V baettery + a resisotr/capacitor module that was included with the unit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 13 18:48:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 00:48:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) In-Reply-To: <4697B3BF.4E124486@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jul 13, 7 10:17:51 am Message-ID: > > I beg to differ on this. I have a couple of dekatron counters and they > only seem to be good to some 10s of KHz (unless of course, you mean that that > was pretty fast for the time). Interestingly, one of these counters uses two I don;t know if they ever turned up in computer applications, but there was a device called a 'Trochotron' that was used in counters and in the counter stages of DVMs, etc. It was a hot-cathode high-vacuum device, and was surronded by magnets. IIRC, there was an electron beam produced in the device which could be stepped round to one of 10 target electrodes (which could drive a nixie tube for display) Being a vacucm device, it didn't depent on the ionisation time of a gas, and was considerably faster than a Dekatron. According to an old databook I've looked it, Most dekatrons would go up to 4kHZ, with a couple of types being faster, about 20kHZ. Trochotrons wuuld go to over 1MHz > types of dekatrons, the only obvious difference between them being the colour > of the glow and the part number. The ones in the slower speed decades are the > usual neon glow, in the higher speed decade a purplish glow (xenon?). I presume Sounds more like Argon, but it would depend on the pressure, I think. -tony From grant at stockly.com Fri Jul 13 19:11:00 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:11:00 -0800 Subject: Bringing up an Altair 680... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070713155521.04e95198@pop.1and1.com> >1) Remove the main board from the case, detaching it from the > front panel board. >2) Remove (carefully noting their positions) all of the ICs > from the main board. >3) Attach dummy loads (24V light bulbs) to the PS at convenient > locations. How many should I use? >4) Attach to AC power in this state. Assuming nothing pops, > check DC voltage (voltages?) with a scope. Assuming DC > looks good, allow to warm up for a few hours. >5) Scope check DC again. Power down allow to cool for a few > minutes. Repeat steps 4 and 5 a few times (3? 4?). >6) If all looks good, reinstall all of the "easy to replace" > ICs and do 4 and 5 again. >7) If all looks good, reinstall the rest of the ICs, restore > the main board to the case and front panel. >8) Debug any logic problems (dead chips, opens, etc.). > >Does this look reasonable? It depends how much free time you have. I would just remove the socketed parts - ROM, processor, and ACIA. Even with a nice desoldering pump its likely that a few solder pads will be damaged in the process. A compromise might be to throw a handful of zener diodes on the main regulated power rails? +5v, + and -16v, etc. Turn on for a second and see if they are hot. : ) Assuming you toasted the entire computer I could sell you every single IC for $50. Just a pointer, when the Altair 680 is working *properly* the heatsinks (especially the upside down one) are hot/burn to the touch. Same thing with the 2W resistor. You might want to replace the fuse with a new one. Those old ones blow under proper loads. I have schematics for this computer if you need them. Grant From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 13 19:37:40 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:37:40 -0400 Subject: Bringing up an Altair 680... In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070713155521.04e95198@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: Grant Stockly wrote: > It depends how much free time you have. I would just remove the socketed > parts - ROM, processor, and ACIA. All of the ICs are socketed in this 680. > Assuming you toasted the entire computer I could sell you every single IC > for $50. I might take you up on that... I was wondering about getting a copy of VTL-2 in ROM/EPROM. > Just a pointer, when the Altair 680 is working *properly* the heatsinks > (especially the upside down one) are hot/burn to the touch. Same thing > with the 2W resistor. That's good to know. > You might want to replace the fuse with a new one. Those old ones blow > under proper loads. Good to know as well. > I have schematics for this computer if you need them. Yes, definately. Thanks! No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.4/898 - Release Date: 7/12/2007 4:08 PM From grant at stockly.com Fri Jul 13 20:33:12 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:33:12 -0800 Subject: Bringing up an Altair 680... In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070713155521.04e95198@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070713172237.03591720@pop.1and1.com> At 04:37 PM 7/13/2007, you wrote: >Grant Stockly wrote: > > It depends how much free time you have. I would just remove the socketed > > parts - ROM, processor, and ACIA. > >All of the ICs are socketed in this 680. Oh, in that case, go for taking them all out if you want. In the two 680s I've worked with everything but the ROM, processor, and 6850 was soldered to the PCB! : ) >I was wondering about getting a copy of VTL-2 in ROM/EPROM. $30 + shipping, or less if you want to mail me 3 good 1702s. > > Just a pointer, when the Altair 680 is working *properly* the heatsinks > > (especially the upside down one) are hot/burn to the touch. Same thing > > with the 2W resistor. > >That's good to know. The ACIA is normal temperature, the 6800 gets kind of warm (do you have a ceramic one?), and the 1702 can get pretty warm. This is based on the surronding ICs. I've learned a lot about debugging Altair 680s. I've repaired 1, and built 2 more from scratch in the last few months. : ) Its a pretty easy computer to work with. I like it. Grant From us21090 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 13 21:18:55 2007 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 19:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 1000EX in Craigslist, Morgantown, WV Message-ID: <97935.49305.qm@web30814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm not associated with this person. See: http://morgantown.craigslist.org/sys/366079794.html Reply to: sale-366079794 at craigslist.org Date: 2007-07-03, 8:07PM EDT Tandy 1000EX [8086 processor] purchased in 1985, I think. Has dot-matrix printer; mouse; joystick; 1200 baud modem; internal and external 5 1/4-inch floppies plus an external 3 1/2-inch floppy. Monitor and stand. Games and other programs. I hate to just throw it away or e-cycle it. Pic available on request. Make an offer. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 13 22:53:52 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:53:52 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) Message-ID: >From: Brent Hilpert > >dwight elvey wrote: > > > > As a note on the dekatron, these were used in some of the early > > HP counters. They were used as the first, or highest frequency, > > state of the counters. They were quite fast! > > Dwight > >I beg to differ on this. I have a couple of dekatron counters and they >only seem to be good to some 10s of KHz (unless of course, you mean that >that >was pretty fast for the time). Interestingly, one of these counters uses >two >types of dekatrons, the only obvious difference between them being the >colour >of the glow and the part number. The ones in the slower speed decades are >the >usual neon glow, in the higher speed decade a purplish glow (xenon?). I >presume >the purplish glow gas ionizes faster than neon. >I should try to ascertain more accurately the max rate of the purplish deks >but haven't yet as one of the two in the unit is failing. > >I haven't seen dekatrons in HP counters, I believe their first counter was >the >524A and, unless it was radically different than the 524B/C/D, didn't use >dekatrons. Certainly the rest of the 520 series was vacuum tube flip-flops >(AC-4 modules). Hi Bret I recall that is was an HP counter. I don't recall the fastest count but it was on the order of either 10KHz or 100KHz. I don't think it was less then that but it may have been 1MHz. I recall that like many of the HP counters of the time, the other decades were the inline 10 ea bulbs. I don't recall if these were neon or incandescent but I think they were neons driven by dual triodes. I do believe that the ring counter did have a purplish glow. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 14 01:06:34 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:06:34 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) in HP counters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469867EA.1050609@sbcglobal.net> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Bret > I recall that is was an HP counter. I don't recall the fastest count but > it was on the order of either 10KHz or 100KHz. I don't think it was > less then that but it may have been 1MHz. I recall that like many of the > HP counters of the time, the other decades were the inline 10 ea bulbs. I > don't recall if these were neon or incandescent but I think they were > neons driven by dual triodes. I do believe that the ring counter did > have a purplish glow. > Dwight I have the manuals for most of the early HP counters. I looked through them and could not find dekatrons used. The input goes directly to the counter units. The 523C goes to 1.2 MHz. In the 524B counter, there are two divide by 10 circuits built with tube flip-flops. This counter counts up to 10 MHz. In the timebase circuit, they used a two tube circuit called a phantastron to divide the 100KHz crystal down. The circuits are decade dividers. In the 523C counters, the tubes are 1/2 of a 6AL5 diode and a 6AS6. They work up to at least 100KHz. A circuit and description can be found here: http://www.dvq.com/images/phantastron.jpg The odd thing about this is I swear I remember the ring counters also. I don't remember a purple glow, just the typical red-orange. I'm still looking through manuals to see if I can find something. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 01:31:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:31:32 -0700 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) in HP counters In-Reply-To: <469867EA.1050609@sbcglobal.net> References: , <469867EA.1050609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <46980B54.28863.FE654E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jul 2007 at 23:06, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > In the timebase circuit, they used a two tube circuit called a > phantastron to divide the 100KHz crystal down. Which, of course, brings this to mind: http://www.geocities.com/pdq340/humor/umac606.htm Cheers, Chuck From cc at corti-net.de Sat Jul 14 03:35:46 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:35:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: neon glow lamps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, the very common 2D21 (EN91 in Europe) is a hot cathode tetrode > xenon thyratron. Most of the time they are called PL21, I think because most other "big" thyratrons are PLxx, too, even if this is syntactically incorrect (they're not 300mA series heated power pentodes). From the several dozens I have I don't have one that's labelled EN91. Christian From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jul 14 07:37:13 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:37:13 -0400 Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... It's running again!!! In-Reply-To: <200707121733.00397.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200707101204.01139.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <200707121733.00397.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4698C379.7020100@comcast.net> yea but...will it run Linux ;) =Dan [ vintage electrons are just as good ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Tuesday 10 July 2007 12:04, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > >> Factoid: Many TI chips produced during 1975-77 period had very thin "legs" >> and poor tinning. When they were wave soldered, the solder offered them >> protection. However, when they were socketed (as in the MODCOMP) they had >> very little protection from the environment. They would rust and eventually >> fail. >> >> > --snip-- > > I've now replaced all the "nasty" TI chips in the MODCOMP II CPU planes and, > as needed, in the Memory planes. > > The total number of chips replaced was about 297 (I may have missed a few). > > I'd been testing with short hand-written diagnostics as I went along - and > could see the system getting "better and better" as I proceded (with a few > "relapses'). > > I can now load a linking loader and diagnostics via the loader. Memory diags > run w/o failure (including tests of "protect" mode) - YEAH!!!!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Note: Here are some thoughts for anyone deciding to take on a massive project > like this: > > 1) Inventory your chip requirements. Add enough chips for spares and fails > (not all new/pull chips are going to work). > > 2) Obtain all the chips you'll need up front from your "stash" and buying as > required. Bag or box them in numeric order near the system. In my case, I > needed to acquire a lot of chips - as I had very few 74H and 74S series in > stock - and the "fast" MODCOMP II needed scads of them. > > 3) I only replaced about a dozen chips at a time before running a basic > diagnostic. It turns out that replacing too many chips at once can create > diagnostic nightmares. > > 4) I used fine tweezers or a safety pin to remove broken legs from the chip > sockets. I then used a strong magnet (Neodymium) to make sure I got all the > legs, etc. of the broken chips picked up and away from the planes. > > 5) I make it a practice to have a log for every system I restore. In the case > of replacing so many chips, it is even more essential to log every chip you > replace and every "hand" diagnostic written and each result. > > (a) Whenever I replaced a chip, I noted the location and chip type replaced > (b) Whenever I could "skip" replacement (It had been done previously, etc.) > I noted the fact with a "circle" around the location. > > Besides documenting my progress, the above was very helpful when testing - as > I knew immediately which chips were likely "suspects". > > 5) Take plenty of breaks. Replacing hundreds of chips requires a steady hand > and a lot of patience. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Regards, > Lyle > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jul 14 08:04:43 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:04:43 -0500 Subject: VCFmidwest v3.0 begins Message-ID: <001101c7c617$8c9215c0$5fcad80a@JWEST> Greetings folks... from West Lafayette, Indianna. The weather is awesome this morning, the day the festival begins. I arrived around 7:30pm local time last night and met up with Pat. He was able to get me into the exhibit area to set up my HP 21MX. I called a few people to see about dinner/drinks but was unable to rouse anyone by 10pm when I was free. I'm in the hotel room getting some documents together for handouts on the 21MX/E at the show (the poyner article as well as some technical spec sheets). I'll run to Kinkos a few blocks up the street and print them off momentarily. Then it's off to a big breakfast and then exhibit hall. Remember - doors open at 10:30am, speakers at 11am, and exhibits from 2pm to 6pm. I suspect that like in years past, most of us will head out to dinner this evening. Hope to see you at the show! Jay West From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jul 13 02:54:23 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:54:23 +0100 Subject: UK computer history gets new home Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902309F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> There is quite a lot more of what happened re the Japanese codes in the various books that have been published. The breaking of JN25 by Rochfort to reveal the plan to invade Midway Island and the susequent loss of three carriers by the Japanese has been the subject of books, TV programmes and films. Another coup was the decoding of Yamamoto's inspection plans and the shooting down of his plane at extrame range by US twin engined Lockheed Lightning fighters. Some of the Japanese codes were quite weak due the mistaken belief that the Japanese language and Japanese morse code provided a level of protection. (They didn't!!) As to the Germans. The Abwehr did break the allied convoy code and a forward mobile unit in North Africa had considerable success with Montgomery's radio traffic. They did that is, until overrun and captured. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: 13 July 2007 00:53 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: UK computer history gets new home > What gets me a little is the comparative lack of recognition that all > the others working on projects like Colossus have received; Turing > still gets publicity (rightly so), but not much ever gets said about > all the others who were contributing effort and ideas. This is a very common problem, especially when dealing with wartime technologies and who gets the credit. Two of the big factors are state secrecy, and the old saying "the victor writes the history books". For the former, one can look at the breaking of the Japanese codes (purple being the most famous). The Enigma and Lorenz stories are now pretty much out in the open and declassified, but the Japanese stuff is still locked up in secrecy. Under the veil of secrecy, the guys that did the work can not get the credit. For the latter, one can see just how little (almost no) credit is given to the Axis powers. There is very credible evidence that Allied codes were broken during World War 2. It is likely the Germans had some sort of equivalent of Bletchley, but is probably forever lost. The Allies were not about to give credit to the Axis engineers. Many still will not. It is bothers you - then speak up. Give the guys credit. Spread the word. They deserve it. -- Will From pierre-detorcy at wanadoo.fr Thu Jul 12 16:30:33 2007 From: pierre-detorcy at wanadoo.fr (Pierre de Torcy) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:30:33 -0400 Subject: Software for Transtronics/Intronics EPROM programmer Message-ID: <01e501c7c4cb$e267d810$21cd0950@gatewayb09b7c6> I own a backup of the disk for the Intronics pocket pgmer. Do you still need it ? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 13 19:12:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:12:31 -0400 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469814EF.6010402@bellatlantic.net> While interesting and at least classic and technical can you relate it to computers? Allison Tony Duell wrote: >> I do remember the "miniature camera" 22.5v photoflash, but to my >> knowledge, the standard "press photographer" flash units that used >> large incandescent-lamp-sized bulbs all took D cells. > > Most did, I think. In the UK, GEC (who AFAIK are noting to do with the > American GE company) sold special low-ionternal-resistance D-cells (we > called them 'U2' size at the time) for this appliocation > > The problem with directly firing the flashbulb from the battery was that > as the battery aged its internal resistance increased. In the end the > bulb would fail to fire at all, but before, the lower current throug hthe > ignitor fillament meant the bulb took longer to fire, messing up the > synchonisation. Probably not a problem on the Speedgraphic/MPP Micropress > shutters (large format focal plane shutters that took a good 1/4s to go > across the film) > > Leica sold a flashgun which took ES cap flashbulbs or SCC (single contact > small bayonet cap) with an adapter that was supplied with the unit. The > original design used a special 6V dry batttery, this was quickly replaced > by a holder that took 4 AA cells in series. Then there was a > battery/capacitor module (22.5V battery) that fitted in place of that, > making contacct with the battery terminals and the metal case of the > flashgun (which was the connection between the bulb and sync contact). > > I've also got a SCC-cap flashgun that seems to have been designed for TLR > cameras (from the bracket that came with it). It either uses a pair of C > cells or a 22.5V baettery + a resisotr/capacitor module that was included > with the unit. > > -tony > From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Jul 14 04:29:56 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:29:56 +0100 Subject: Bringing up an Altair 680... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1184405396.699.3.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 15:30 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I've just been given access to an Altair 680. It seems to be > in excellent physical condition (no rust, corrosion, dents... > just some dust). Has not seen power in many years. All of > the ICs are socketed. Due to the fact that the PS is > incorporated onto the main board, I was planning the following: > > 1) Remove the main board from the case, detaching it from the > front panel board. > 2) Remove (carefully noting their positions) all of the ICs > from the main board. > 3) Attach dummy loads (24V light bulbs) to the PS at convenient > locations. How many should I use? Wouldn't it be easier to just remove the voltage regulators from the PCB and test them, and test the unregulated PSU outputs? That way you can be reasonably confident that when you put the PSU back together it will be safe, without the attendant risks of screwing up the rest of the machine. Gordon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 14 12:35:46 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:35:46 -0600 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469814EF.6010402@bellatlantic.net> References: <469814EF.6010402@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <46990972.8040708@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > While interesting and at least classic and technical can you relate it > to computers? > Allison The closest thing I can think of is keep your camera in top shape. So you can take plenty of pictures while disassembling and cleaning and testing. ... Now where did this extra 7400 come from and why is there black smoke ... :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jul 14 13:16:52 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:16:52 -0700 Subject: vac tube clock rates / was Re: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) in HP counters References: <469867EA.1050609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <46991313.3E61BCAC@cs.ubc.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Bret > > I recall that is was an HP counter. I don't recall the fastest count but > > it was on the order of either 10KHz or 100KHz. I don't think it was > > less then that but it may have been 1MHz. I recall that like many of the > > HP counters of the time, the other decades were the inline 10 ea bulbs. I > > don't recall if these were neon or incandescent but I think they were > > neons driven by dual triodes. I do believe that the ring counter did > > have a purplish glow. > > Dwight > > I have the manuals for most of the early HP counters. I looked through > them and could not find > dekatrons used. The input goes directly to the counter units. The 523C > goes to 1.2 MHz. > In the 524B counter, there are two divide by 10 circuits built with tube > flip-flops. This > counter counts up to 10 MHz. The remaining 6 of the decades in the 524's are built with vac-tube flip-flops as well. Pardon the detail following but there is an interesting point (IMHO): by count rate there are 3 types of counters in the 524's, the lower speed 6 decades (<=100KHz) are a typical 4 flip-flop circuit built from 4 duo-triodes, the 1 Mhz counter is similar but with some clamping diodes and lower resistances, however the 10Mhz stage is about 3 times as complex: 13 tubes (not duo-triodes), a bazillion clamp diodes, a very different circuit arrangement and even count sequence. (FWIW: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP520.html for my own take on the series.) It's a good example of the limits of vacuum-tube technology which applied to the computers of the day (at least with typical tubes in the 50s). Going beyond a few MHz became infeasible. For references I have at hand the fastest clock rate I see is 2.5 MHz for BINAC, a lot of the tubes machines seem to have run at around a MHz or less. Anybody know what the basic clock rates of the IBM 709 or Sage processors was? (some of the last big tube machines). From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 14 13:03:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:03:19 -0500 Subject: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) in HP counters In-Reply-To: <46980B54.28863.FE654E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <469867EA.1050609@sbcglobal.net> <46980B54.28863.FE654E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46990FE7.2090402@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Which, of course, brings this to mind: > > http://www.geocities.com/pdq340/humor/umac606.htm Utter genius. I need to print that one out for the Colossus guys... :-) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 13:29:10 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:29:10 -0400 Subject: UK computer history gets new home In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902309F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902309F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: > There is quite a lot more of what happened re the Japanese codes in the > various books that have been published. The breaking of JN25 by Rochfort > to reveal the plan to invade Midway Island and the susequent loss of > three carriers by the Japanese has been the subject of books, TV > programmes and films. Note, however, the extreme lack of technical details. > Some of the Japanese codes were quite weak due the mistaken belief that > the Japanese language and Japanese morse code provided a level of > protection. (They didn't!!) Security thru obscurity, as many computer folks think as well. The Japanese had both very strong and very weak codes, as did everyone else. We had the codetalkers - Navajos using voivce over radio. While there is no evidence the Japanese deciphered the message, it was foolish for the US to think it was unbreakable. What what man can do, another can do... > As to the Germans. The Abwehr did break the allied convoy code and a > forward mobile unit in North Africa had considerable success with > Montgomery's radio traffic. They did that is, until overrun and > captured. Again, the lack of details. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 13:35:39 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:35:39 -0400 Subject: vac tube clock rates / was Re: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) in HP counters In-Reply-To: <46991313.3E61BCAC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <469867EA.1050609@sbcglobal.net> <46991313.3E61BCAC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > It's a good example of the limits of vacuum-tube technology which applied to > the computers of the day (at least with typical tubes in the 50s). Going > beyond a few MHz became infeasible. Without going to the old industry rags (I am not home now anyway), I would bet that the upper limit on computer tube operation is due to the interelectrode capacitance and spacing issues (the actual distance between the cathode and plate - it become criticals when you see that the electron transit speed is actually not that fast). I would also bet that the speed could have been increased if the tubes shrank - using subminis instead of minis. Speed would probably go up, but cost would also skyrocket.I doubt any commercial maker would have wanted to pay that price. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 13:43:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:43:41 -0700 Subject: vac tube clock rates / was Re: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) in HP counters In-Reply-To: <46991313.3E61BCAC@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <46991313.3E61BCAC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4698B6ED.16054.1284A63E@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2007 at 11:16, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Anybody know what the > basic clock rates of the IBM 709 or Sage processors was? (some of the last > big tube machines). >From https://www.cisl.ucar.edu/computers/gallery/scdhistory-back.pdf, 0.667 MHz. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 13:47:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:47:53 -0700 Subject: vac tube clock rates / was Re: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) in HP counters In-Reply-To: References: , <46991313.3E61BCAC@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4698B7E9.27500.12887EB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2007 at 14:35, William Donzelli wrote: > Without going to the old industry rags (I am not home now anyway), I > would bet that the upper limit on computer tube operation is due to > the interelectrode capacitance and spacing issues (the actual distance > between the cathode and plate - it become criticals when you see that > the electron transit speed is actually not that fast). I would also > bet that the speed could have been increased if the tubes shrank - > using subminis instead of minis. Speed would probably go up, but cost > would also skyrocket.I doubt any commercial maker would have wanted to > pay that price. When I used to shopping on Chicago's Michigan Avenue "Surplus Row", I used to see lots (boxes and boxes) of PCBs with submini wire-lead dual triodes on them (usually about 6 per card). I bought them and used the tubes for HF operation (very handy in a cascode configuration) and lots cheaper than Nuvistors. Since most of these stores dealt in defense surplus, I suspect these were part of some military computer as most of the boards were wired as flip-flops. Cheers, Chuck From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sat Jul 14 14:14:17 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:14:17 -0500 Subject: Looking for something to put in this space (PDP-11) Message-ID: Here's a pic of my PDP-11/23+ system with two RL02 drives. There is an empty space about six inches high below the second drive, as you can see. (In the rear is a power controller and a panel with 16 serial ports, although I don't have anything to hook up to them for now). http://i18.tinypic.com/4pc8sux.jpg I'm looking for either a blank panel to cover the hole, or maybe an interesting device I can fit there, if anyone has a suggestion? thanks Charles From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jul 14 16:39:20 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: vac tube clock rates / was Re: neon glow lamps (was TTL homebrew CPUs) in HP counters In-Reply-To: <4698B6ED.16054.1284A63E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46991313.3E61BCAC@cs.ubc.ca> <4698B6ED.16054.1284A63E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Jul 2007 at 11:16, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Anybody know what the >> basic clock rates of the IBM 709 or Sage processors was? (some of the last >> big tube machines). > >> From https://www.cisl.ucar.edu/computers/gallery/scdhistory-back.pdf, > 0.667 MHz. It's difficult to find any info about clock speed for SAGE, but the core memory access time was 6 microseconds: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-a.html#SAGE Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Jul 14 16:51:16 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... It's running again!!! In-Reply-To: <200707121733.00397.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <198514.57970.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Lyle Bickley wrote: > 2) Obtain all the chips you'll need up front from > your "stash" and buying as > required. Bag or box them in numeric order near the > system. In my case, I > needed to acquire a lot of chips - as I had very few > 74H and 74S series in > stock - and the "fast" MODCOMP II needed scads of > them. Hi, Lyle. Do you have a good source of mixed-lot or small quantity 74H series parts? I've picked up a few odd lots, but to get any selection, it looks like you have to go to the legacy chip merchants who have large line-item minimum orders. Congratulations on getting the Modcomp restored. As for the guy who asked about "but will it run Linux?", I doubt it, but I get you could get v6 or v7 to run on it. ;) You have an I/O box. Does it have a disk controller for the Diablo 30? --bill From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 16:56:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:56:05 -0700 Subject: JFETs in logic circuits Message-ID: <4698E405.2039.1334C86E@cclist.sydex.com> Someone, about a week ago, asked about JFET use in logic circuits. It turns out that the questioner was a bit ahead of the times. There's a relatively new device called a G4-FET that's made up of a MOSFET and a JFET, has 4 gates and can be used to make a 3-input NOT- majority logic element. Read about the construction here: http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/10067/1/02-2177.pdf And its use in logic here: http://www.freshpatents.com/Universal-programmable-logic-gate-and- routing-method-dt20070111ptan20070008013.php Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Jul 14 18:25:19 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:25:19 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Revisited... It's running again!!! In-Reply-To: <198514.57970.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <198514.57970.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200707141625.19740.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 14 July 2007 14:51, William Maddox wrote: > --- Lyle Bickley wrote: > > 2) Obtain all the chips you'll need up front from > > your "stash" and buying as > > required. Bag or box them in numeric order near the > > system. In my case, I > > needed to acquire a lot of chips - as I had very few > > 74H and 74S series in > > stock - and the "fast" MODCOMP II needed scads of > > them. > > Hi, Lyle. Do you have a good source of mixed-lot or > small quantity 74H series parts? I've picked up a few > odd lots, but to get any selection, it looks like you > have to go to the legacy chip merchants who have large > line-item minimum orders. I used a fair number of "pulls" from another/different MODCOMP which had been previously "updated" with new chips. I also obtained chips from friends and sources that for privacy reasons I will not mention. In some cases, I literally ran folks out of some series of "H" chips. I also bought some chips in quantity (lots of 25 or more per type). By the time I complete restoring I/O, I'll probably only have a few left as spares. Of course, I could have resorted to substituting "S" for "H" - they are a lot easier to come by - but I wanted to restore the MODCOMP II as one would an artifact. > Congratulations on getting the Modcomp restored. > As for the guy who asked about "but will it run > Linux?", I doubt it, but I get you could get v6 or > v7 to run on it. ;) I don't think MODCOMP II was ever capable of running any *NIX. It only supports 64KW (128KB) of memory - and has no memory mapping. However, I do plan to run MODCOMPs MAX OS on the II. > You have an I/O box. Does it > have a disk controller for the Diablo 30? I don't have a Diablo - only a paper tape reader, floppy disk interface, console (RS-232) and High Speed Serial interface - and a "customer" created interface that looks like some kind of analog data sampling device. My next project is getting all the peripherals to work (with the exception of the "customer" interface (I'm still searching the source archives for any information on it). Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 15 01:06:16 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:06:16 -0700 Subject: vac tube clock rates / was Re: neon glow lamps (was TTLhomebrew CPUs) in HP counters In-Reply-To: <4698B7E9.27500.12887EB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" >On 14 Jul 2007 at 14:35, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Without going to the old industry rags (I am not home now anyway), I > > would bet that the upper limit on computer tube operation is due to > > the interelectrode capacitance and spacing issues (the actual distance > > between the cathode and plate - it become criticals when you see that > > the electron transit speed is actually not that fast). I would also > > bet that the speed could have been increased if the tubes shrank - > > using subminis instead of minis. Speed would probably go up, but cost > > would also skyrocket.I doubt any commercial maker would have wanted to > > pay that price. > >When I used to shopping on Chicago's Michigan Avenue "Surplus Row", I >used to see lots (boxes and boxes) of PCBs with submini wire-lead >dual triodes on them (usually about 6 per card). I bought them and >used the tubes for HF operation (very handy in a cascode >configuration) and lots cheaper than Nuvistors. Since most of these >stores dealt in defense surplus, I suspect these were part of some >military computer as most of the boards were wired as flip-flops. > > These might have been use for encryption. They used a lot of LFSRs in these. That would be mostly flops and little else. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!? http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Jul 15 01:07:43 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 08:07:43 +0200 Subject: Lilith computer running ! In-Reply-To: <467eba04_2@news.bluewin.ch> References: <467D9E4E.9010409@tx.rr.com> <467e9588$1_7@news.bluewin.ch> <467ea933$0$16377$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> <467eba04_2@news.bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4699B9AF.6080601@bluewin.ch> My interest in the Lilith computer has been restarted after some recent post to a.f.c. ( what a mess a.f.c. is...) I put in some extra effort and was rewarded with a Lilith that booted up into its Medos OS ( version 5.2) The last time this particular machine booted its OS was in 1990 . Which means that there is at least one machine with a complete set of microcode and higher layers avaliable. The machine remains VERY temperamental : Most attempts to boot end in disk softread errors, resetting the Lilith involves power cycling ( I looked for signs of a startupcircuit, could not find any ) Probably some diskplatter / head cleaning is due, not something I look forward too. And then there is the task of rescuing the data : with at single RS232 channel, no software and a flat directorystructure with over 500 entries, this looks also to be quite a task. That's right, the Lilith does not have a hierarchical filesystem ! It does have ethernet, but it is the very old ( first ?) 3MB standard. AFAIK it cannot be interfaced to something more recent. Jos From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 15 01:53:59 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 00:53:59 -0600 Subject: Lilith computer running ! In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 15 Jul 2007 08:07:43 +0200. <4699B9AF.6080601@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <4699B9AF.6080601 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen writes: > My interest in the Lilith computer has been restarted after some recent > post to a.f.c. ( what a mess a.f.c. is...) Sweet! > Which means that there is at least one machine with a complete set of > microcode and higher layers avaliable. I have 3 Eves that supposedly work and another full of boards and spare parts. These are successors to the Lilith. I've never booted them as I don't have the appropriate screen and keyboard setup for them yet. I have one monitor that has 'dim' written on it in marker and I have no documentation, except what I've gleaned from the net. > with at single RS232 channel, no software and a flat directorystructure > with over 500 entries, this looks also to be quite a task. That's right, > the Lilith does not have a hierarchical filesystem ! Mine are configured with Bernoulli drives, so conceivably I could backup to that media, but I'd much rather image the disk drives directly in another system. Have you considered that with your system? I think my disks are SCSI or ESDI, I haven't figured out for sure yet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 15 02:06:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 00:06:48 -0700 Subject: vac tube clock rates / was Re: neon glow lamps (was TTLhomebrew CPUs) in HP counters In-Reply-To: References: <4698B7E9.27500.12887EB5@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46996518.16982.152CF77F@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2007 at 23:06, dwight elvey wrote: > These might have been use for encryption. They used a lot of > LFSRs in these. That would be mostly flops and little else. > Dwight The triodes were attached with clips to anodized aluminum "wings" on either side of the PCB, with small front panel with a couple of test points on it. They were also a handy source of silvered mica caps. Maybe 8-10 inches wide by 3/4 inch tall by 9 inches deep. No manufacturer's name that I recall. After over 40 years, that's all I can remember about them. Back then, I think I paid about a buck apiece for each board. 6.3vac heaters. Cheers, Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Jul 15 03:29:25 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 01:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free Commodores near Seattle (Seabeck), WA Message-ID: <20070715082925.64284.qmail@web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Do not email me, see email address below: I have several old Commodore computers that are headed for the junk-heap unless I can find an appreciative collector. I have two VIC 20's, at least two C64s, and one C128. I don't know if ANY of them still work. I think I have some Commodore peripherals too. There may be a Commodore printer as well. I want nothing for them except shipping. If you are interested - or you know someone who is, let me know and we will work something out. Bill Sipple sipplewg at wavecable.com Seabeck, Washington, USA (98380) --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 15 10:31:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 10:31:46 -0500 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <4F2C3058-CB16-4194-985F-C38D3467E9D8@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> References: , <200707111258.51434.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4694B94B.23757.2EDF13D@cclist.sydex.com> <4694CB7B.26880.334FE2A@cclist.sydex.com> <4F2C3058-CB16-4194-985F-C38D3467E9D8@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> Message-ID: <469A3DE2.4040909@yahoo.co.uk> Stroller wrote: > > On 11 Jul 2007, at 20:22, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I know it's off-topic a bit, but I stumbled on this clock using neon >> bulbs for counters and nixies for display. No vacuum tubes--just >> caps, resistors, diodes and neon. >> >> http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/neonclock/ > > OMG! That's GORGEOUS. Agreed. I even went looking for neons at Bletchley yesterday, but what I remembered as being boxes of them turned out to be ordinary panel lamps :-( Farnell look to sell some cheap ones though, so I might do some experimenting. I've got some Nixies gathering dust - I wanted to use them for something that wasn't a clock, but this neon one is sufficiently oddball that I'm very tempted... I'm still not up to speed with the theory, though - I can see how the ring counter operates once one tube is lit, but I'm not quite sure how the power-up initial status with only the first tube in each counter lit is arrived at... (i.e. how is it guaranteed that only one tube fires, rather than none or several? Is one tube chosen to have slightly different characteristics to the rest in the ring or something?) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 15 11:50:15 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 09:50:15 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469A3DE2.4040909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson ---snip--- > >I'm still not up to speed with the theory, though - I can see how the ring >counter operates once one tube is lit, but I'm not quite sure how the >power-up initial status with only the first tube in each counter lit is >arrived at... (i.e. how is it guaranteed that only one tube fires, rather >than none or several? Is one tube chosen to have slightly different >characteristics to the rest in the ring or something?) > Hi Use diodes. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 15 12:48:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 10:48:34 -0700 Subject: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469A3DE2.4040909@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <4F2C3058-CB16-4194-985F-C38D3467E9D8@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>, <469A3DE2.4040909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4699FB82.12409.17788822@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2007 at 10:31, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/neonclock/ > > > > OMG! That's GORGEOUS. > > Agreed. I even went looking for neons at Bletchley yesterday, but what I > remembered as being boxes of them turned out to be ordinary panel lamps :-( > Farnell look to sell some cheap ones though, so I might do some experimenting. > I've got some Nixies gathering dust - I wanted to use them for something that > wasn't a clock, but this neon one is sufficiently oddball that I'm very tempted... Carrying this idea of old logic families to its next stage, I wonder if it would still be possible to get some "hard" ferrite toroids to implement a digital clock design in core logic? I'm not up to snuff on what's available in the small-quantity market. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 15 13:03:33 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 11:03:33 -0700 Subject: Lilith computer running ! Message-ID: <469A6175.7030105@bitsavers.org> > Which means that there is at least one machine with a complete set of > microcode and higher layers avaliable. Great news! > with at single RS232 channel, no software and a flat directorystructure > with over 500 entries, this looks also to be quite a task. By 'no software' do you mean no development tools? If there is some way to type out the contents of a disk block, you can slowly dump the whole disk. Binary dumps of all the files could be automated if there is a file dump program. > It does have ethernet, but it is the very old ( first ?) 3MB standard. The orig was roughly 3mbits, with 256 device addressing. The specs for what PARC developed exists, though I'm not sure that they exactly copied the design having never seen it. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 15 20:45:47 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 18:45:47 -0700 Subject: Alto emulator progress Message-ID: <469ACDCB.3060001@bitsavers.org> http://pullmoll.stop1984.com/alto/ Juergen has made a lot of progress in the past month. There are some small movies up now of the simulation running games with user loaded microcode. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Jul 15 23:44:45 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 06:44:45 +0200 Subject: Lilith computer running ! In-Reply-To: <469A6175.7030105@bitsavers.org> References: <469A6175.7030105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <469AF7BD.20007@bluewin.ch> Al Kossow wrote: > > Which means that there is at least one machine with a complete set of > > microcode and higher layers avaliable. > > Great news! > > > with at single RS232 channel, no software and a flat directorystructure > > with over 500 entries, this looks also to be quite a task. > > By 'no software' do you mean no development tools? No FTP, no z-modem , no piping into RS232. There is filetransfer between 2 Liliths, or writing to Apple-2 formatted floppy's. Looks rather cumbersome. If I could get the Lilith i to remain stable for a decent amount of time then I might have a go at writing a Modula2 program for reading sectors and dump these via RS232. The disk interface ( Honeywell Bull D120 ) is unlike anything I have ever seen, so attaching it to something Linux box or so is currently not possible. From Robert.Smith2 at robins.af.mil Mon Jul 16 06:09:01 2007 From: Robert.Smith2 at robins.af.mil (Smith, Robert L Civ 402 EMXG/MXVOPB) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 07:09:01 -0400 Subject: hp tape inventory Message-ID: <8F9EF8FAC7EC694EB24FFE0D8E04451D01A6E099@VFGAMLAO11.Enterprise.afmc.ds.af.mil> What is the possibility of getting a copy of a Punched Tape.....( 92060-16044 !DSKUP OFF LINE DISC BACK UP )? Robert Smith Process & Support Section Avionics & Instrument Division 402 EMXSS/MXVOPB(MAIPB) Robins AFB,GA (478) 327-8669 DSN 497-8669 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jul 16 12:31:20 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:31:20 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs References: , <4F2C3058-CB16-4194-985F-C38D3467E9D8@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>, <469A3DE2.4040909@yahoo.co.uk> <4699FB82.12409.17788822@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <469BAB69.FD6C8A1D@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Carrying this idea of old logic families to its next stage, I wonder > if it would still be possible to get some "hard" ferrite toroids to > implement a digital clock design in core logic? I'm not up to snuff > on what's available in the small-quantity market. Sometimes it's fun just to go through the design exercise. An initial thought was that, either: - you'd need a "non-core" latch to hold the state of the core counter logic before driving the Nixies because you don't get a static state level out of the cores, at which point you have as much complexity of non-core logic as you would without using the cores; - or, come up with a scheme where you're reading and refreshing the cores at a high enough rate to drive the Nixies in pulse mode, but while retaining the counter state. It would be neat if you could get enough pulse energy out of the cores to drive the Nixies without intervening transistors. I'd still like to read that document you pointed to about the SS90 containing the core logic principles but I think it's about 20-30 MB and have yet to download it. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 13:25:18 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:25:18 -0400 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> The recent discussion on interesting system architectures triggered a memory I have of a documentary on TV somewhere (Discovery? TechTV? PBS?) on evolvable hardware. There was some intrigue in the episode, on investors accusing researchers of bad faith, or lying, or a scam. Hardware was built, I'm pretty sure it was the CAM-Brain, and it was used quite a bit before the company that built it went under (It may have been Genobyte along with ATR, but I remember the company being based out of England) Anyways, this definitely counts as "interesting" hardware. An FPGA based computer that optimizes it's own logic based on a given problem. The CAM-Brain was built, as was an FPGA engine built by HP, and another in Japan somewhere. Here are some links if anyone is interested: The CAM-Brain: http://trappist.elis.ugent.be/~heeckhau/CBM/ Hugo de Garis has an interesting website discussing weather we should build super-brains (Artliects) or not: http://www.iss.whu.edu.cn/degaris/ Adrian Thompson, one of the bigwigs in evolvable hardware design: http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/adrianth/ade.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 16 13:29:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:29:48 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469BAB69.FD6C8A1D@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <469BAB69.FD6C8A1D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2007 at 10:31, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Sometimes it's fun just to go through the design exercise. An initial thought > was that, either: > - you'd need a "non-core" latch to hold the state of the core counter logic > before driving the Nixies because you don't get a static state level out of > the cores, at which point you have as much complexity of non-core logic as you > would without using the cores; I suppose if we wanted to stay with the general spirit of things, one could use a cold-cathode thyratron. I've seen where ordinary NE-2s are triggerd by placing the bulb in a conductive sleeve, shielding it from external light and simply pulsing the shield to trigger the lamp. Heaven forfend that I should use an SCR or transistor! I wonder if the clock could be derived from line frequency without much more than a few diodes. > I'd still like to read that document you pointed to about the SS90 containing the > core logic principles but I think it's about 20-30 MB and have yet to download > it. When you get a chance, do. It's very interesting--and very different from the usual semiconductor logic that we're used to. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 13:39:08 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:39:08 -0400 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > The recent discussion on interesting system architectures triggered a > memory > I have of a documentary on TV somewhere (Discovery? TechTV? PBS?) on > evolvable hardware. There was some intrigue in the episode, on investors > accusing researchers of bad faith, or lying, or a scam. Hardware was built, > I'm pretty sure it was the CAM-Brain, and it was used quite a bit before > the > company that built it went under (It may have been Genobyte along with ATR, > but I remember the company being based out of England) > > Anyways, this definitely counts as "interesting" hardware. An FPGA based > computer that optimizes it's own logic based on a given problem. The > CAM-Brain was built, as was an FPGA engine built by HP, and another in > Japan > somewhere. Here are some links if anyone is interested: I had an idea like this once. It involved an FPGA executing bytecodes in microcode, and loading gate configurations from ROM for often-used bytecodes as it ran. Peace... Sridhar From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Jul 16 13:43:43 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <469BAB69.FD6C8A1D@cs.ubc.ca> <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:29:48 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs > > On 16 Jul 2007 at 10:31, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >> Sometimes it's fun just to go through the design exercise. An initial thought >> was that, either: >> - you'd need a "non-core" latch to hold the state of the core counter logic >> before driving the Nixies because you don't get a static state level out of >> the cores, at which point you have as much complexity of non-core logic as you >> would without using the cores; > > I suppose if we wanted to stay with the general spirit of things, one > could use a cold-cathode thyratron. I've seen where ordinary NE-2s > are triggerd by placing the bulb in a conductive sleeve, shielding it > from external light and simply pulsing the shield to trigger the > lamp. Heaven forfend that I should use an SCR or transistor! I > wonder if the clock could be derived from line frequency without much > more than a few diodes. Arent there some electronic organ circuits that use NE-2s that way as synchronised oscillators? Seems to me a grid cap of the right type was used for the sleeve. Peter Wallace From lee at geekdot.com Mon Jul 16 15:17:42 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:17:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Omnibyte OB68K/VME1 Message-ID: <3286.90.240.111.183.1184617062.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Omnibyte OB68K/VME1 I'm looking for any information on this board. This is a 68000 based 6U VME card and not the similarly named multibus card. Cheers. Lee. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 16 15:48:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:48:53 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: , <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <469B7745.21683.1D43F478@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2007 at 11:43, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Arent there some electronic organ circuits that use NE-2s that way as > synchronised oscillators? > > Seems to me a grid cap of the right type was used for the sleeve. I do remember seeing a bunch of NE-2s used on the pedalboard of an old Lowery organ as sort of a priority encoder--only the lowest note would sound if more than one note was pressed. I don't recall the circuit however. But it was a more-or-less full- sized pedalboard--about 30 notes or so. This does relate to old computer architectures--many electronic organs use flip-flops and the like. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 16:13:11 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:13:11 -0400 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469B7745.21683.1D43F478@cclist.sydex.com> References: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com> <469B7745.21683.1D43F478@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > This does relate to old computer architectures--many electronic > organs use flip-flops and the like. Using VERY odd tubes. -- Will From charlesmorris at hughes.net Mon Jul 16 16:25:11 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:25:11 -0500 Subject: What AMP connector is this? Message-ID: <7rnn931ofhos824am0ettfuomf7t4cg64h@4ax.com> As previously posted, I needed a power cable to connect my 11/23+ chassis to the power controller. The controller end was an AMP Mate-n-Lok and so is the one on the switch board at the front of the 11/23+. Thanks to Vince for the Mouser part numbers. But the connector at the rear chassis is NOT the same. Here is a picture of it (to the left; the Mate-N-Lok is on the right): http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6csdoiq The (DEC) cable is marked "70-18384-03 Rev A" and that connector "AMP-2" and "CPH-2". I just made a longer cable with a Mate-N-Lok on both ends, and ran it directly from the switch board to the power controller. Anyway I'm still wondering which connector I could have used, or if this is a previous-owner modification. thanks CHarles From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jul 16 16:17:23 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:17:23 +0100 Subject: LEO (1950) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D390230B5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I just caught a part of a TV program showing pictures of and the use of a computer called LEO. It was made by and belonged to a UK company called Lyons. They imported and sold tea, ran a chain of tea shops and restaurants, made and sold ice cream. I should know, my father worked for them and we had our own ice cream freezer just like shops. Boy were we popular in the summer.!! Any way LEO (Lyons Electronic Office) took four years to build and was up and running in 1950. They showed a large room with closed racks, a console with meters and a scope of some sort. Also a punch and printer machine room. Two applications were featured. A tea blending system and a stock control system for the tea shops. The tea shop application was telephone to punched card in real time. Each teashop had a phone in time slot. >From there it printed picking lists, allocated the stock and even did a van route setup with LIFO loading. It must have been all valve and would need cooling. However Lyons was an ice cream company and refrigeration would not have been a mystery to them. To quote an American actor "I have got to get me one of those!!" Anybody know of another real commercial electronic computer before 1950? Rod Smallwood From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 16 16:47:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:47:45 -0400 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> On Jul 16, 2007, at 2:39 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> The recent discussion on interesting system architectures >> triggered a memory >> I have of a documentary on TV somewhere (Discovery? TechTV? PBS?) on >> evolvable hardware. There was some intrigue in the episode, on >> investors >> accusing researchers of bad faith, or lying, or a scam. Hardware >> was built, >> I'm pretty sure it was the CAM-Brain, and it was used quite a bit >> before the >> company that built it went under (It may have been Genobyte along >> with ATR, >> but I remember the company being based out of England) >> Anyways, this definitely counts as "interesting" hardware. An FPGA >> based >> computer that optimizes it's own logic based on a given problem. The >> CAM-Brain was built, as was an FPGA engine built by HP, and >> another in Japan >> somewhere. Here are some links if anyone is interested: > > I had an idea like this once. It involved an FPGA executing > bytecodes in microcode, and loading gate configurations from ROM > for often-used bytecodes as it ran. Sorta like a Just-In-Time "compiler" for hardware configurations? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 16 16:50:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:50:42 -0700 Subject: LEO (1950) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D390230B5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D390230B5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <469B85C2.4464.1D7C8C37@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2007 at 22:17, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Anybody know of another real commercial electronic computer before 1950? IEEE Annals had a really good article on the LEO series. I think the first outside sale of a cmputer still goes to Eckert-Mauchly for Univac I in 1951. There were other in-house systems operating then, but I believe no outside-sales production systems. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 16 16:45:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:45:21 -0500 Subject: LEO (1950) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D390230B5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D390230B5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <469BE6F1.4030407@yahoo.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > I just caught a part of a TV program showing pictures of and the use of > a computer called LEO. That wasn't the James May thing that aired last Tuesday was it? I think it was something along the lines of 'the history of science', and I wondered what they'd show for origins of the computer - sadly I wasn't around when the show was on though to see. > Anybody know of another real commercial electronic computer before 1950? Hmm, the Ferranti Mark 1 (based on the Manchester Baby) was a commercial machine and built around that same sort of time. I'm not sure if the Ferranti machine was the first to be sold to someone (rather than being used in-house) or whether the LEO was. (Actually, I'm not sure if LEO I was ever used outside of Lyons - I think it may have been the later LEO II that was their first true commercial machine) cheers Jules From fryers at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 17:53:27 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:53:27 +0100 Subject: LEO (1950) In-Reply-To: <469BE6F1.4030407@yahoo.co.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D390230B5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <469BE6F1.4030407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: All, [...] > (Actually, I'm not sure if LEO I was ever used outside of Lyons - I think it > may have been the later LEO II that was their first true commercial machine) The first LEO installed outside Lyons was LEO II/3 at the Stewarts and Lloyds steelworks in Corby. It ran successfully from May 1958 to 1971! If people are interested, the book, "A Computer Called LEO" by Georgina Ferry, ISBN 1-84115-186-6 is a good read. I have it sat next to my computer at the moment and it made a useful reference for the above! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 18:36:49 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:36:49 -0400 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> The recent discussion on interesting system architectures >>> triggered a memory I have of a documentary on TV somewhere >>> (Discovery? TechTV? PBS?) on evolvable hardware. There was some >>> intrigue in the episode, on investors accusing researchers of bad >>> faith, or lying, or a scam. Hardware was built, I'm pretty sure >>> it was the CAM-Brain, and it was used quite a bit before the >>> company that built it went under (It may have been Genobyte along >>> with ATR, but I remember the company being based out of England) >>> Anyways, this definitely counts as "interesting" hardware. An >>> FPGA based computer that optimizes it's own logic based on a >>> given problem. The CAM-Brain was built, as was an FPGA engine >>> built by HP, and another in Japan somewhere. Here are some links >>> if anyone is interested: >> >> I had an idea like this once. It involved an FPGA executing >> bytecodes in microcode, and loading gate configurations from ROM >> for often-used bytecodes as it ran. > > Sorta like a Just-In-Time "compiler" for hardware configurations? Exactly. JIT-optimizing processor. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 16 19:10:46 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:10:46 -0600 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Exactly. JIT-optimizing processor. That may run fast but does the byte code compiler produce good code? I get get the impression that you often have 1 pass compilers like Pascal or Tiny C that produce byte code style source at the expense of better code. > Peace... Sridhar From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jul 16 20:04:48 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:04:48 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com><469B7745.21683.1D43F478@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Thyratron ring counters, in conjunction with the Nixie tubes themselves (the Nixies were specially designed to be an active part of triggering the next Thyratron in the ring) in the first commercially produced electronic calculator, the Anita Mark VII/Mark VIII (the Mk7 sold in Europe for a short time, quickly superceded by the Mk8). These were small Thyratrons, about the size of a pinkie finger from the first joint to the fingertip. There were also used a small number of vacuum tubes, for specific logic elements which required inversion or buffering. The main clock phases were generated by a Dekatron (1 in the Mk8, 3 in the Mk7). There were lots of Thyratrons in this machine. The machine had a capacity of 12 digits, which meant 120 Thyratrons just for the ring counters. There were other boards full of thyratrons for various logic and clocking functions, for a total of over 200 in the machine. It is very cool to see one in operation without the cover on. The thyratrons do emit an orange glow when triggered. While doing calculations, The thyratrons rapidly zip on and off, one at a time, in the ring-counter circuits. Others seem to bounce around in differing patterns, depending on the type of operation being performed. On the subject of making a magnetic core logic clock...it might be possible, but the problem with core is that reading it is destructive. Circuitry would have to be built using a magnetic core flip-flop (which are possible using core logic gating functions) to retain the state of the read bit, and then a cycle initiated to "put the bit back". This would have to be done as each bit is read out of the core array. If it was read four bits at a time (4 planes), then you'd need 4 core flip-flops to retain the state for rewriting back into core. It's very unlikely that the direct output of the core could drive nixie tubes. The core outputs are typically very low voltage, low current pulses that require either pulse transformers, along with further amplification to make into usable logic signals, or all-transistor sense amplifiers. I suppose that some kind of core-based amplifier could be used, but it would be more like a transformer than a pure core, with a small primary winding, and a large number of secondary windings. The logic necessary to handle the timekeeping, the core memory read/modify/write cycle, and BCD-to-1 of 10 decoding to drive the Nixies would take a lot of core-based logic. I think it would be possible to do it, but you'd definitely need some transistorized circuitry for buffering, amplification, and clocking (though a free-running core-based clock generator might be possible). Many early electronic calculators utilized core memory as the main memory for the machines, though surrounded by a lot of diode/transistor logic for the rest of the machine. The core just stored the working registers. As far as I know, no calculator was ever built that utilized core for everything. Dr. An Wang (the inventor of magnetic core memory) did a lot of experimentation with core logic, and had patented it. But, IBM offered him big bucks to assume the patent, and he took the money. Later, Dr. Wang realized that he got ripped off by IBM, and vowed that he'd build a business (Wang Laboratories) that would put IBM out of business. He made a good run for it for a while, but never came even close. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 20:34:02 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:34:02 -0400 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0707161834s41f1d724rcc8231f416032ed5@mail.gmail.com> On 7/16/07, woodelf wrote: > > > That may run fast but does the byte code compiler produce good code? > I get get the impression that you often have 1 pass compilers > like Pascal or Tiny C that produce byte code style source > at the expense of better code. It's genetic/cellular automata style computation. It cycles through various logic configurations until it finds the optimal setup. The bad news is that it means that the "compile" cycles could take a while. The good news is once an optimal algorithm is found, it's saved for later. This scheme should theoretically work well for compute-intensive operations, especially those requiring lots of variables, such as DSP and fluid dynamics. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 16 20:45:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:45:52 -0600 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0707161834s41f1d724rcc8231f416032ed5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <5f7d1b0e0707161834s41f1d724rcc8231f416032ed5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <469C1F50.4000109@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason McBrien wrote: > It's genetic/cellular automata style computation. It cycles through various > logic configurations until it finds the optimal setup. The bad news is that > it means that the "compile" cycles could take a while. The good news is > once > an optimal algorithm is found, it's saved for later. This scheme should > theoretically work well for compute-intensive operations, especially those > requiring lots of variables, such as DSP and fluid dynamics. They have had that years ago -- And star treks's computers even had blinking lights. But oddly you made me wonder about a FPGA system can handle the problem since most problems off hand don't seem to be integer math, rather floating point of some sort. I just don't trust the words computer science uses not the algorithms. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 16 20:54:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:54:56 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <469BBF00.20283.1E5C245F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2007 at 18:04, Rick Bensene wrote: > On the subject of making a magnetic core logic clock...it might be > possible, but the problem with core is that reading it is > destructive. I don't think you understand what I mean by "core logic". I'm not talking about coincident-current core memory; I mean ferractor logic. The SS-80/90 manuals on bitsavers are perhaps the best technical source on the subject, but I found another web site that gives an idea: http://ussc90.nl/circ.htm The key thing to me is that the ferractor is an "active" pumped device. The Univac SS-80 used a kilowatt 2-phase clock. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 21:01:10 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:01:10 -0400 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com> <469B7745.21683.1D43F478@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Dr. An > Wang (the inventor of magnetic core memory) did a lot of experimentation > with core logic, and had patented it. But, IBM offered him big bucks to > assume the patent, and he took the money. Later, Dr. Wang realized that > he got ripped off by IBM, That is now how IBM felt. They paid thru the nose for the license. The also spent a large amount of money trying to get around the license before they caved. -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 22:06:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:06:16 -0400 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469C3228.8080602@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: >> Exactly. JIT-optimizing processor. > That may run fast but does the byte code compiler produce good code? > I get get the impression that you often have 1 pass compilers > like Pascal or Tiny C that produce byte code style source > at the expense of better code. You *can* write a good compiler for bytecode. It just takes a bit more effort. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 22:07:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:07:35 -0400 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <469C1F50.4000109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <5f7d1b0e0707161834s41f1d724rcc8231f416032ed5@mail.gmail.com> <469C1F50.4000109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469C3277.3000006@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Jason McBrien wrote: > >> It's genetic/cellular automata style computation. It cycles through >> various >> logic configurations until it finds the optimal setup. The bad news is >> that >> it means that the "compile" cycles could take a while. The good news >> is once >> an optimal algorithm is found, it's saved for later. This scheme should >> theoretically work well for compute-intensive operations, especially >> those >> requiring lots of variables, such as DSP and fluid dynamics. > > They have had that years ago -- And star treks's computers even had > blinking lights. > But oddly you made me wonder about a FPGA system can handle the problem > since most problems off hand don't seem to be integer math, rather floating > point of some sort. I just don't trust the words computer science uses > not the algorithms. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that last sentence. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 16 22:38:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:38:18 -0600 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <469C3277.3000006@gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <5f7d1b0e0707161834s41f1d724rcc8231f416032ed5@mail.gmail.com> <469C1F50.4000109@jetnet.ab.ca> <469C3277.3000006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <469C39AA.9030102@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that last sentence. While I have not taken computer science, other than brute speed there does not seem to much advancement in computer development as was predictied by computer science. > Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 16 22:44:35 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:44:35 -0400 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <469C39AA.9030102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <5f7d1b0e0707161834s41f1d724rcc8231f416032ed5@mail.gmail.com> <469C1F50.4000109@jetnet.ab.ca> <469C3277.3000006@gmail.com> <469C39AA.9030102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <37B388F9-34A7-4D2F-A6AC-3080FA56A56D@neurotica.com> On Jul 16, 2007, at 11:38 PM, woodelf wrote: >> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that last sentence. > While I have not taken computer science, other than brute speed > there does not seem to much advancement in computer development > as was predictied by computer science. Oh, of course there has, it's just not readily visible in the mainstream. People keep buying computers built around processors that implement a worn-out 1970s-era architecture that wasn't even particularly good when it was new. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 16 22:59:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:59:56 -0700 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <469C3228.8080602@gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com>, <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca>, <469C3228.8080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <469BDC4C.17002.1ECE96FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2007 at 23:06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > You *can* write a good compiler for bytecode. It just takes a bit more > effort. When the target machine needs a lot of subroutine calls to handle the elements of a language, then the difference between bytecode and native code gets very small. For example, there's not a lot of performance difference between compiled to native code BASIC and bytecode-compiled BASIC. Easily swamped out by a clever runtime optimization or two. I've seen it done, much to my glee. On the other hand, FORTRAN optimized and compiled to native code on an AMD64 platform would probably smoke bytecode-compiled FORTRAN on the same platform something awful. Prolog or SIMSCRIPT might be a different situation. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 16 23:14:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:14:58 -0600 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <37B388F9-34A7-4D2F-A6AC-3080FA56A56D@neurotica.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> <469BBB4C.3010207@gmail.com> <396FEF6C-4323-44B0-BEBD-23931CCDBAE6@neurotica.com> <469C0111.2070309@gmail.com> <469C0906.2060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <5f7d1b0e0707161834s41f1d724rcc8231f416032ed5@mail.gmail.com> <469C1F50.4000109@jetnet.ab.ca> <469C3277.3000006@gmail.com> <469C39AA.9030102@jetnet.ab.ca> <37B388F9-34A7-4D2F-A6AC-3080FA56A56D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <469C4242.7090109@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh, of course there has, it's just not readily visible in the > mainstream. People keep buying computers built around processors that > implement a worn-out 1970s-era architecture that wasn't even > particularly good when it was new. Well I am buiding a byte ( 12 bits ) serial von newman achitecture CPU(1) and what new features can I add from todays architecture? My design is for single user, single process since it is rather slow. .8 us memory access time. Short(12) & ints(24) are the only data types suported. > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL (1) I(ndex)/A(c) reg (zero/pc),SP,IX,IT,A,B,C,BP O(p) St,ld,and,or,xor,add,sub,misc M(ode) Quick (#0-7),Control,r++ word,r++ byte, index short word,index byte word, index long word,index long byte opcode 12 bits Op,Ac,Mode,Index From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jul 16 23:40:20 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:40:20 -0500 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com> <469B7745.21683.1D43F478@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <469C4834.2000808@pacbell.net> William Donzelli wrote: >> Dr. An >> Wang (the inventor of magnetic core memory) did a lot of experimentation >> with core logic, and had patented it. But, IBM offered him big bucks to >> assume the patent, and he took the money. Later, Dr. Wang realized that >> he got ripped off by IBM, > > That is now how IBM felt. They paid thru the nose for the license. The > also spent a large amount of money trying to get around the license > before they caved. Chapter 7 of "IBM's Early Computers" by Bashe, Johnson, Palmer, and Pugh is all about IBM's experience in developing their core memory expertise and getting it into production, along with some of the patent intrigue, core memory history, and avenues that were explored and abandoned. This is all written from IBM's perspective. After reading this chapter, it disabused me of the meme that Wang invented core memory. Others had proposed using magnetic rings before Wang. IBM even had done some experimenting with them before hearing of Wang's results at Harvard, which were far more advanced than what IBM had done to that point. Munro Haynes read Wang's paper and started his own experiments at the University of Illinois. It was Hayes who figured out coincident current switching, which makes addressing the cores a whole lot more pratical. Haynes later joined IBM. MIT too worked on practical core memory, and there was some back and forth with IBM about it. I won't replay the whole chapter, but the main points are two: (1) like many inventions, there wasn't a single father, rather a concurrent development by many parties that were sometimes aware of the work of the others, sometimes not (2) IBM didn't pay through the nose for Wang's patent; they got Wang's patent for "several hundred thousand dollars" according to the book. IBM payed through the nose (in their estimation) for rights to core memory technology patented by Jay Forrester at MIT (through MIT's patent management company). MIT was insisting on royalties of two cents per bit (core). Their tussle went on for years, and in the end IBM paid out a one time $13M fee for the rights to the Forrester patent. By that time (1964), IBM was using more than one billion cores per year. The chapter has a lot of other really interesting detail and is worth the read. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jul 16 23:59:30 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:59:30 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs References: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com><469B7745.21683.1D43F478@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <469C4CB2.54CEF27@cs.ubc.ca> Rick Bensene wrote: > flip-flops to retain the state for rewriting back into core. It's very > unlikely that the direct output of the core could drive nixie tubes. > The core outputs are typically very low voltage, low current pulses that > require either pulse transformers, along with further amplification to > make into usable logic signals, or all-transistor sense amplifiers. I > suppose that some kind of core-based amplifier could be used, but it > would be more like a transformer than a pure core, with a small primary > winding, and a large number of secondary windings. Chuck was alluding to finding appropriate cores so I was thinking of it as being open-season on the design, not necessarily the "off-the-shelf" cores that would be used 50 years ago. The thought was carrying over from the discussion last week-or-two about core-logic and the clock drivers pumping the energy into the system. I don't see any reason it couldn't be done, in principle. The voltage may be an issue as you say, but if you're starting from scratch you could wind cores with a special output winding or use step-up puls transformers. Granted that by the time you sit down and do the design ther might be push-back from some other part of the design that makes it not worthwhile. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 00:36:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:36:59 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469C4CB2.54CEF27@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <469C4CB2.54CEF27@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <469BF30B.21649.1F277059@cclist.sydex.com> Here's a Wikipedia article about one of the early pioneers in ferrite logic, Hewitt Crane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewitt_Crane --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 00:40:48 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:40:48 -0700 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: <469C1F50.4000109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >From: woodelf ----snip--- >But oddly you made me wonder about a FPGA system can handle the problem >since most problems off hand don't seem to be integer math, rather floating >point of some sort. I just don't trust the words computer science uses >not the algorithms. > Hi Actually, I find that most are incorrectly using floating point where they should have given the problem a little more though and used a more predictable integer math. Many only use floating point because they think it is less likely to give the wrong results. Often times it does just that and isn't recognized that it did until too late. The problem is that even in floating point, one should do the same levels of checking that are needed for integer, it just isn't done by most and many haven't got a clue how to do it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 00:50:58 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:50:58 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Rick Bensene" > > > On the subject of making a magnetic core logic clock...it might be >possible, but the problem with core is that reading it is destructive. ---snip--- Hi Actually logic state can be if the core changes state, that is a one and if it doesn't change state, that is a zero. The direction of the cores state isn't important. This could even be in phase relation to a clock. When the clock goes hi, a change is a one while when the clock goes low, a non-change is a one. There is no reason to restore the state on each cycle. You just have to be a little more flexible on what you mean by a one or zero. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 17 00:53:51 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 01:53:51 -0400 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707170153.52186.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 16 July 2007 14:43, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:29:48 -0700 > > From: Chuck Guzis > > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL > > homebrew CPUs > > > > On 16 Jul 2007 at 10:31, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Sometimes it's fun just to go through the design exercise. An initial > >> thought was that, either: > >> - you'd need a "non-core" latch to hold the state of the core counter > >> logic before driving the Nixies because you don't get a static state > >> level out of the cores, at which point you have as much complexity of > >> non-core logic as you would without using the cores; > > > > I suppose if we wanted to stay with the general spirit of things, one > > could use a cold-cathode thyratron. I've seen where ordinary NE-2s > > are triggerd by placing the bulb in a conductive sleeve, shielding it > > from external light and simply pulsing the shield to trigger the > > lamp. Heaven forfend that I should use an SCR or transistor! I > > wonder if the clock could be derived from line frequency without much > > more than a few diodes. > > Arent there some electronic organ circuits that use NE-2s that way as > synchronised oscillators? > > Seems to me a grid cap of the right type was used for the sleeve. Lowrey used something of the sort in some of their tube models, along with some rather odd tubes. The description that comes to mind from having seen them mentioned in an old RCA Tube Manual was "Three-plate tetrode". I never did get that much of a grip on just how those circuits were supposed to function, and it's remotely possible that I might still have some service data available for one of those models, somewhere, if anybody's that interested.. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 17 01:50:43 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:50:43 -0600 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469C66C3.9020207@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Actually logic state can be if the core changes state, that is a one > and if it doesn't change state, that is a zero. The direction of > the cores state isn't important. > This could even be in phase relation to a clock. When the clock > goes hi, a change is a one while when the clock goes low, a > non-change is a one. > There is no reason to restore the state on each cycle. You just > have to be a little more flexible on what you mean by a one > or zero. > Dwight I naturaly assumed the core logic is a ring counter. Reset might be a bitch but other than that... it feels straight forward. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jul 17 02:05:38 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:05:38 -0700 Subject: core mem origins / was Re: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs References: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com> <469B7745.21683.1D43F478@cclist.sydex.com> <469C4834.2000808@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <469C6A42.6CC28C6F@cs.ubc.ca> Jim Battle wrote: > > After reading this chapter, it disabused me of the meme that Wang > invented core memory. Others had proposed using magnetic rings before > Wang. IBM even had done some experimenting with them before hearing of > Wang's results at Harvard, which were far more advanced than what IBM > had done to that point. > (1) like many inventions, there wasn't a single father, > rather a concurrent development by many parties that > were sometimes aware of the work of the others, > sometimes not I've long been critical/skeptical of that general attribution to Wang. While Wang can be said to have made contributions to the development of core memory, there were several ideas, as you suggest, that had to come together to produce a practical computer memory. I'm still of the understanding that the Forrester/Whirlwind developments produced the first practical random-access core memory of the 3D 4-wire form, the form which would be the standard for many years (and which would be why IBM had to pay MIT the bigger bucks). (It would be interesting to know when the 3-wire form/improvement was developed). From mike at brickfieldspark.org Tue Jul 17 03:27:46 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:27:46 +0100 Subject: Vol 47, Issue 28, message 10, Subject: LEO (1950) References: <200707170445.l6H4j983008990@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003801c7c84c$5ca44e50$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> > I just caught a part of a TV program showing pictures of and the use of > a computer called LEO. > It was made by and belonged to a UK company called Lyons. > They imported and sold tea, ran a chain of tea shops and restaurants, > made and sold ice cream. Leo eventually became ICL, I worked for them (ICL) on LEO III-26 at Charles House in London on payroll and utility billing, my experience was on Ampex TM2's & 4's which the Leo's uesd. The "scope" was on the engineers panel and was for monitoring the memory, it displayed as blocks of 4 bits - 0000 0000 0000 - forget how many coloumns, in a strange variant of hexadecimal, but the days before hexadecimal became the norm. There is an interesting website for LEO's at - http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/pageone.htm - including all the installations. From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Jul 17 04:29:07 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:29:07 +0100 Subject: Vol 47, Issue 28, message 10, Subject: LEO (1950) In-Reply-To: <003801c7c84c$5ca44e50$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> References: <200707170445.l6H4j983008990@dewey.classiccmp.org> <003801c7c84c$5ca44e50$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707170229x7609245j314478395c07e9b7@mail.gmail.com> On 17/07/07, Mike Hatch wrote: > There is an interesting website > for LEO's at - http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/pageone.htm - including all > the installations. > Hmm.... I'm surprised at how many there were! I'd heard of the first one of course. I just started to write: > I wonder if there is still any trace of LEO III/22 at the Renods Chains site in > Burnage, Manchester. It's been closed and deralict for 20 years... (So I guess > that anything that would have been left would have been trashed by the local > yobs by now...) .. except i had a sudden thought, and checked, and in the couple of years since I last drove past the site, a Tesco supermarket has apparently sprung up... Neither multimap.com or google earth satellite photos have yet caught up... Sigh.. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 05:44:14 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 06:44:14 -0400 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469C4834.2000808@pacbell.net> References: <469B56AC.14979.1CC4A197@cclist.sydex.com> <469B7745.21683.1D43F478@cclist.sydex.com> <469C4834.2000808@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > IBM payed through the nose (in their estimation) > for rights to core memory technology patented > by Jay Forrester at MIT (through MIT's patent > management company). Correct, it was MIT that received the nose payment. I do not recall a number from the book, but IBM probably spent much more money trying to develop some other form of memory that would not infringe. A decent amount of that money went into technologies that went nowhere. -- Will From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 17 07:54:18 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 08:54:18 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0707161125r28789adag7735c903a7ceaa94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707171254.l6HCsUDl082610@keith.ezwind.net> Seen on ebay this morning ..... Item number: 270146028394 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer, Nixie Tube Era Uses NE-2 Decade Counters & a Telephone Dial for Input! $20 with shipping may be a bit much but it sounds like a fun project .... The other Bob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 08:57:57 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 06:57:57 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469BF30B.21649.1F277059@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >Here's a Wikipedia article about one of the early pioneers in ferrite >logic, Hewitt Crane: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewitt_Crane > >--Chuck > I wonder how he got the needed amplification? Did he use some form of magamp? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!? http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2 From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 17 09:54:49 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:54:49 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707171254.l6HCsUDl082610@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200707171254.l6HCsUDl082610@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <469CD839.6000402@sbcglobal.net> Bob Bradlee wrote: > Seen on ebay this morning ..... Item number: 270146028394 > > 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer, Nixie Tube Era > Uses NE-2 Decade Counters & a Telephone Dial for Input! > > $20 with shipping may be a bit much but it sounds like a fun project .... > > The other Bob > > I have a scan of this article up on my site at: http://www.dvq.com/info/neon_bulb_computer_ei_11_66.pdf It relies on matching the neon bulbs. Bob From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 17 10:24:59 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:24:59 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469CD839.6000402@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:54:49 -0700, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >Bob Bradlee wrote: >> Seen on ebay this morning ..... Item number: 270146028394 >> >> 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer, Nixie Tube Era >> Uses NE-2 Decade Counters & a Telephone Dial for Input! >> >> $20 with shipping may be a bit much but it sounds like a fun project .... >> >> The other Bob >> >> >I have a scan of this article up on my site at: >http://www.dvq.com/info/neon_bulb_computer_ei_11_66.pdf >It relies on matching the neon bulbs. And never dialing Zero! otherwise an operator error will occure :) Thanks for the PDF ... >Bob From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 10:26:03 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:26:03 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469CD839.6000402@sbcglobal.net> References: <200707171254.l6HCsUDl082610@keith.ezwind.net> <469CD839.6000402@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > It relies on matching the neon bulbs. Ha! Matched for how long? After a month, I bet no two matched ones are matched anymore! At least the little voltage regulator tubes (0D3 and friends) age better. -- Will From James at jdfogg.com Tue Jul 17 10:36:54 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:36:54 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256EE3@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available > > > It relies on matching the neon bulbs. > > Ha! Matched for how long? After a month, I bet no two matched > ones are matched anymore! > > At least the little voltage regulator tubes (0D3 and friends) > age better. Would zeners be a better choice? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 17 10:40:51 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:40:51 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <200707171254.l6HCsUDl082610@keith.ezwind.net> <469CD839.6000402@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <469CE303.1040200@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > At least the little voltage regulator tubes (0D3 and friends) age better. They need I think about 100 hours to burn in.I suspect neon tubes would do the same.I expect a un-reglated power supply could be a huge problem with a Ne-2 bulb computer. > -- > Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 11:30:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:30:47 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469BF30B.21649.1F277059@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <469C8C47.25921.217E05FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2007 at 6:57, dwight elvey wrote: > I wonder how he got the needed amplification? Did he > use some form of magamp? > Dwight That's my understanding of the priciple of operation. For what it's worth, Ferractor logic isn't the only deployed form of computer core logic. There's also the Parametron: http://www.ipsj.or.jp/katsudou/museum/computer/0080_e.html Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 11:47:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:47:56 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469BF30B.21649.1F277059@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <469C904C.27881.218DBA13@cclist.sydex.com> An interesting paper on Goto's Parametron core logic and the PC-1 computer: http://tinyurl.com/2uo5bz (This points to a PDF document). Cheers, Chuck From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Tue Jul 17 10:03:59 2007 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:03:59 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Wanted-VAX and items In-Reply-To: <5736e8250707130930w44ce655g724920e502dda27f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5736e8250707130930w44ce655g724920e502dda27f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi David, I have a number of 3100's I would be willing to part with, and a uVAX II in a rackmount case as well. I'm in Broomfield, so if you are willing to drive, I'll help load Regards, Clint PS I also have some RA80, RA81's as well in unknown condition... On Fri, 13 Jul 2007, Star Master wrote: > I am looking for a Micro Vax (or any VAX) and/or materials/literature on > them. I live about 60 miles south of Denver, and do not have many $$ to > invest, but will do what I can. > Anyone have any they are willing to part with? > > I would also dearly love any old Commodore equipment/literature as well! > Thank you > David > From shumaker at att.net Tue Jul 17 12:05:08 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:05:08 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469C8C47.25921.217E05FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <469BF30B.21649.1F277059@cclist.sydex.com> <469C8C47.25921.217E05FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707171705.l6HH5OYv001468@keith.ezwind.net> cool link! Hadn't stumbled across it before. ss At 09:30 AM 7/17/2007, you wrote: >On 17 Jul 2007 at 6:57, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I wonder how he got the needed amplification? Did he > > use some form of magamp? > > Dwight > >That's my understanding of the priciple of operation. > >For what it's worth, Ferractor logic isn't the only deployed form of >computer core logic. There's also the Parametron: > >http://www.ipsj.or.jp/katsudou/museum/computer/0080_e.html > >Cheers, >Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jul 17 13:57:59 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:57:59 -0600 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor Message-ID: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> I'm trying to reverse engineer a board that I have and I've bumped into a component that I don't understand the markings on. If you would like to help, a picture can be found here: http://brutman.com/2007_0717_124331.JPG I suspect it is a capacitor, but the markings are strange to me. The capacitor behind it has '104' written on it, so I understand that to be a 0.1uF capacitor. But the one in the foreground marked '35+' is strange to me .. (My apologies in advance - I'm a software person, but I'm trainable.) The identified capacitor and the suspect capacitor tie together two ground plane, so I suspect it is for power smoothing. Thanks in advance, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 13:01:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:01:49 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200707171705.l6HH5OYv001468@keith.ezwind.net> References: <469BF30B.21649.1F277059@cclist.sydex.com>, <469C8C47.25921.217E05FF@cclist.sydex.com>, <200707171705.l6HH5OYv001468@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <469CA19D.15129.21D15C59@cclist.sydex.com> There's a 1958 NEC 1103 Parametron computer brochure online at http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/NEC/NEC.1103.1958102 646285.pdf I think it's interesting that the term "sexadecimal" is used. Apparently, NEC had none of the puritanical qualms of IBM. The numbering notation seems to be 0123456789DGHJKV. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Jul 17 13:11:54 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:11:54 -0700 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> References: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> Message-ID: <469D066A.9010000@mindspring.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I'm trying to reverse engineer a board that I have and I've bumped > into a component that I don't understand the markings on. If you > would like to help, a picture can be found here: > > I suspect it is a capacitor, but the markings are strange to me. The > capacitor behind it has '104' written on it, so I understand that to > be a 0.1uF capacitor. But the one in the foreground marked '35+' is > strange to me .. > > (My apologies in advance - I'm a software person, but I'm trainable.) > > The identified capacitor and the suspect capacitor tie together two > ground plane, so I suspect it is for power smoothing. > My guess would be a 1uF / 35V tantalum capacitor, by the shape and the + polarity marking. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 13:11:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:11:59 -0700 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> References: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> Message-ID: <469CA3FF.24362.21DAAC48@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2007 at 12:57, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I suspect it is a capacitor, but the markings are strange to me. The > capacitor behind it has '104' written on it, so I understand that to be > a 0.1uF capacitor. But the one in the foreground marked '35+' is > strange to me .. Looks like 1 mfd, 35 vdc to me--with the + identifying the positive side. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jul 17 13:16:14 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:16:14 -0700 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor References: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> Message-ID: <469D076F.470FC002@cs.ubc.ca> "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > > I'm trying to reverse engineer a board that I have and I've bumped into > a component that I don't understand the markings on. If you would like > to help, a picture can be found here: > > http://brutman.com/2007_0717_124331.JPG > > I suspect it is a capacitor, but the markings are strange to me. The > capacitor behind it has '104' written on it, so I understand that to be > a 0.1uF capacitor. But the one in the foreground marked '35+' is > strange to me .. > > (My apologies in advance - I'm a software person, but I'm trainable.) > > The identified capacitor and the suspect capacitor tie together two > ground plane, so I suspect it is for power smoothing. That's a "1" above the "35", so it's a 1uF, 35V tantalum capacitor, the "+" is indicating the positive lead. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 17 13:22:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:22:41 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Bradlee wrote: > And never dialing Zero! > otherwise an operator error will occure :) Drat... I can't get all the parts. :) Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... If I got the phone with a dial it would work better than the $10 one I have. The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have a built in resistor. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jul 17 13:27:02 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:27:02 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> References: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> Message-ID: <469D09F6.3090401@philpem.me.uk> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > http://brutman.com/2007_0717_124331.JPG That's a tantalum capacitor. 1uF, 35V, and the positive side is the one with the line on it. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 13:41:55 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:41:55 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469CE303.1040200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707171254.l6HCsUDl082610@keith.ezwind.net> <469CD839.6000402@sbcglobal.net> <469CE303.1040200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > They need I think about 100 hours to burn in.I suspect neon tubes would do > the same. Any "burn in" of gas tubes or neons is done before the tubes leave the factory. It is all downhill from there. The NE-2s, downhill is steep. -- Will From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 17 13:50:45 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - parts In-Reply-To: <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <932465.19172.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> woodelf wrote: Bob Bradlee wrote: > And never dialing Zero! > otherwise an operator error will occure :) Drat... I can't get all the parts. :) Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... If I got the phone with a dial it would work better than the $10 one I have. The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have a built in resistor. I have bought both rotary phone dials and neon bulbs on ebay. The phone dials are up there all the time, usually with the phones. Quantities of the neon bulbs also show up. Bob From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jul 17 13:52:16 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:52:16 -0700 Subject: crimp-on D-sub pin removal Message-ID: <13e44444167496535c98e505410bb6ed@valleyimplants.com> I am somewhat flummoxed- I have a 8-pin modular to DB-25 adaptor that I need to move some pins on to make if functional with a 3B2 machine, but looking at the unused connector positions I can't figure out what the retention device is for the installed pins to remove them. It doesn't look like a Molex-style clip coming from the pin (2 pins are uninserted) and there doesn't seem to be any catches molded into the plastic. Any pointers on how to pull these pins with standard garage tools? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 17 14:02:16 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, woodelf wrote: > Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... If I got the > phone with a dial it would work better than the $10 one I have. http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/m1511.html $5.50, NIB. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jul 17 15:21:51 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:21:51 -0600 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <469D076F.470FC002@cs.ubc.ca> References: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> <469D076F.470FC002@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <469D24DF.40700@brutman.com> Ok, looks like that was too easy. The 35 threw me .. The caps are connected from a power rail (+5) to ground. Is there a good tutorial somewhere that explains how capacitors are used for decoupling and smoothing? (I've checked some obvious sources, but I need more detail, like if you connect a cap to a +5 source and ground, why doesn't it just discharge completely ...) Mike From drb at msu.edu Tue Jul 17 14:16:54 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:16:54 -0400 Subject: crimp-on D-sub pin removal In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:52:16 PDT.) <13e44444167496535c98e505410bb6ed@valleyimplants.com> References: <13e44444167496535c98e505410bb6ed@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200707171916.l6HJGsiC008070@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I am somewhat flummoxed- I have a 8-pin modular to DB-25 adaptor that I > need to move some pins on to make if functional with a 3B2 machine, but > looking at the unused connector positions I can't figure out what the > retention device is for the installed pins to remove them. It doesn't > look like a Molex-style clip coming from the pin (2 pins are uninserted) > and there doesn't seem to be any catches molded into the plastic. > Any pointers on how to pull these pins with standard garage tools? Only if your garage comes standard with the D-series pin puller tool. :) If you've seen the tool for some variant of molex connector, you've seen the principle: a thin-walled split tube which slides down around the pin, inside the socket, and shoves the plastic retainer bits out of the way. For a picture: http://www.tecratools.com/product1199.html De From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 14:54:57 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:54:57 -0400 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <469D24DF.40700@brutman.com> References: <469D1137.2090009@brutman.com> <469D076F.470FC002@cs.ubc.ca> <469D24DF.40700@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0707171254p6de687f2lbe052d078debdd2c@mail.gmail.com> On 17/07/07, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Ok, looks like that was too easy. The 35 threw me .. > > The caps are connected from a power rail (+5) to ground. Is there a > good tutorial somewhere that explains how capacitors are used for > decoupling and smoothing? (I've checked some obvious sources, but I > need more detail, like if you connect a cap to a +5 source and ground, > why doesn't it just discharge completely ...) > > > Mike Get the cap as close to the chip as you can: think of the trace as a (really low resistance) resistor: the resistance PS-to-cap is is much larger than resistance cap-to-chip and bingo! low-pass filter. Joe. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 15:05:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:05:45 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net>, <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469CBEA9.18854.2242D219@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2007 at 12:22, woodelf wrote: > Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... If I got the > phone with a dial it would work better than the $10 one I have. > The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have > a built in resistor. Golly, the phone in my shop is the original WE real-bell-with-rotary- dial wall model. Stick around long enough and everything you own will become an antique... ;-) Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jul 17 15:26:44 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:26:44 -0700 Subject: crimp-on D-sub pin removal Message-ID: > Only if your garage comes standard with the D-series pin puller tool. > :) > > If you've seen the tool for some variant of molex connector, you've > seen > the principle: a thin-walled split tube which slides down around the > pin, inside the socket, and shoves the plastic retainer bits out of the > way. > > For a picture: > > http://www.tecratools.com/product1199.html > > De The picture didn't help much, but the basic description did (I've never used a Molex pin removal tool, every Molex I've worked on has succumbed to a dental pick in short order). It is possible to remove these with basic garage tools: all you need are a small piece of thin sheet aluminum and a moderate precision 5/64" metal dowel- in short an aluminum soda pop can and a 5/64 drill. Form the aluminum into a tube with a slot suitable for 24 ga wire, put around the pin, pull out- all in less time than it takes to drive to the semi-local electronics store. From drb at msu.edu Tue Jul 17 15:38:41 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:38:41 -0400 Subject: crimp-on D-sub pin removal In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:26:44 PDT.) References: Message-ID: <200707172038.l6HKcf2A010406@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > It is possible to remove these with basic garage tools: all you need are > a small piece of thin sheet aluminum and a moderate precision 5/64" > metal dowel- in short an aluminum soda pop can and a 5/64 drill. Form > the aluminum into a tube with a slot suitable for 24 ga wire, put around > the pin, pull out- all in less time than it takes to drive to the > semi-local electronics store. Now why didn't I ever think of that? Thanks! Presumably one wants to be careful of the edges. De From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 15:44:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:44:18 -0700 Subject: crimp-on D-sub pin removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469CC7B2.4780.22661E87@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2007 at 13:26, Scott Quinn wrote: > It is possible to remove these with basic garage tools: all you need > are a small piece of thin sheet aluminum and a moderate precision 5/64" > metal dowel- in short an aluminum soda pop can and a 5/64 drill. Form > the aluminum into a tube with a slot suitable for 24 ga wire, put > around the pin, pull out- all in less time than it takes to drive to > the semi-local electronics store. I've had better luck with the local hobby store. Small-diameter aluminum and brass tubing is available for a slightly more "professional" version. Cheers, Chuck From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Jul 17 16:03:24 2007 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:03:24 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts Message-ID: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I had an excellent time this year as usual, even though we initially had some unforseen problems getting rolling toward Purdue. Lots to see, and I had a fun time socializing(and on occasion brainstorming) with those I don't see nearly often enough. The speakers were great and very entertaining, and Rick did a great job coordinating dinner for Saturday night. As an exhibitor, I have to say that the turnout was way better than I thought, especially on Sunday. Thanks to everyone involved for making this not only a success but an entertaining endevour as well. Looking forward to 4.0! Julian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 17 16:18:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:18:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: crimp-on D-sub pin removal In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Jul 17, 7 01:26:44 pm Message-ID: > It is possible to remove these with basic garage tools: all you need > are a small piece of thin sheet aluminum and a moderate precision 5/64" > metal dowel- in short an aluminum soda pop can and a 5/64 drill. Form I've found the metal from the shutter of a discarded 3.5" floppy disk is also quite useful for making things like this. It might be too thick for D-series pins, but it works for Molex pins, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 17 16:14:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:14:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0707171254p6de687f2lbe052d078debdd2c@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Jul 17, 7 03:54:57 pm Message-ID: > Get the cap as close to the chip as you can: think of the trace as a > (really low resistance) resistor: the resistance PS-to-cap is is much > larger than resistance cap-to-chip and bingo! low-pass filter. Actually, it's the inductive reactance of the trace/PSU connections that matters here. With high-frequency signals -- this doens't mean a high clock rate necessarily, it means a fast ris-time edge -- you can get significant voltage drop from very small 'inductors', like the connction from the chip to the PSU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 17 16:16:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:16:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469CBEA9.18854.2242D219@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 17, 7 01:05:45 pm Message-ID: > Golly, the phone in my shop is the original WE real-bell-with-rotary- > dial wall model. Stick around long enough and everything you own > will become an antique... ;-) I have that problem whenever I go to museums of household appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of thsose" '-) -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 17 16:26:10 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:26:10 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - parts In-Reply-To: <932465.19172.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <932465.19172.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <469D33F2.8030904@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have bought both rotary phone dials and neon bulbs on ebay. > The phone dials are up there all the time, usually with the phones. Quantities of the neon bulbs also show up. I can't use e-bay since I forgot my password. Funny how all the sleazy people can use my email from with it for scamming. > Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 17 16:28:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:28:41 -0600 Subject: crimp-on D-sub pin removal In-Reply-To: <13e44444167496535c98e505410bb6ed@valleyimplants.com> References: <13e44444167496535c98e505410bb6ed@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <469D3489.8040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Quinn wrote: > I am somewhat flummoxed- I have a 8-pin modular to DB-25 adaptor that I > need to move some pins on to make if functional with a 3B2 machine, but > looking at the unused connector positions I can't figure out what the > retention device is for the installed pins to remove them. It doesn't > look like a Molex-style clip coming from the pin (2 pins are uninserted) > and there doesn't seem to be any catches molded into the plastic. > > Any pointers on how to pull these pins with standard garage tools? Can you re-phrase that? A jack and tire iron come to mind. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 17 16:39:37 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:39:37 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469D3719.9040609@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I have that problem whenever I go to museums of household > appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of > thsose" '-) Chuckling to self ... I don't have to have a phone with a crank to call you ; do I? > -tony PS. I all know about you is that you have some sort of email access. :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 17 16:48:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > I have that problem whenever I go to museums of household > appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of > thsose" '-) "I've been thinking of replacing my old one with one like that" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 17 16:56:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:56:33 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:22 PM, woodelf wrote: >> And never dialing Zero! otherwise an operator error will occure :) > Drat... I can't get all the parts. :) > Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... A surplus dealer was mentioned on this list (I think) several weeks ago that had brand new telephone dials. > The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have > a built in resistor. Hard to find?? Not even close. I bought a bag of them a year or so ago on eBay, brand new...the seller had a HUGE quantity of them, he probably still has more. I think I paid $5.00 for 75 of them. Standard NE-2 series neon lamps are even available from regular component distributors like Mouser Electronics. None of these have built-in resistors by the way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 17 17:07:24 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:07:24 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <469D3D9C.50805@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Standard NE-2 series neon lamps are even available from regular > component distributors like Mouser Electronics. Well send me $100 and I'll send you $10 :) It may take a few more years for me to get time to build it how ever.) > None of these have built-in resistors by the way. > -Dave From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jul 17 18:16:16 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:16:16 -0600 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469D4DC0.5040409@brutman.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Get the cap as close to the chip as you can: think of the trace as a >> (really low resistance) resistor: the resistance PS-to-cap is is much >> larger than resistance cap-to-chip and bingo! low-pass filter. > > Actually, it's the inductive reactance of the trace/PSU connections > that matters here. With high-frequency signals -- this doens't mean a > high clock rate necessarily, it means a fast ris-time edge -- you can > get significant voltage drop from very small 'inductors', like the > connction from the chip to the PSU. > > -tony > > I need some books and a double E degree. One more question ... Some of what I'm reading says put the capacitor near the power supply, and other things are saying get it as close to the chip as possible. (With a few rules, I'm simplifying.) If the bypass capacitor is being used to filer the AC component, wouldn't the answer for a good design be "do both"? The board I posted about is not optimal in this regard. It's an ISA bus to PCjr bus adapter, so there is no TTL logic anywhere on the board - the individual ISA cards have the TTL (and hopefully bypass capacitors). In this application was the designer just trying to 'clean up' the voltage sources for the TTL on the cards a little bit? Mike From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue Jul 17 17:31:43 2007 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:31:43 -0400 Subject: crimp-on D-sub pin removal In-Reply-To: <469D3489.8040301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <13e44444167496535c98e505410bb6ed@valleyimplants.com> <469D3489.8040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469D434F.9040602@splab.cas.neu.edu> If the DB side of the adapter is like most that I've used, then if you are VERY careful, you can use a pair of real good needlenose pliers, squeeze just enough to make contact with the pin and push directly in. This routine is definitely not for the mechanically challenged or faint of heart. It is very easy to slip sideways and severely bend the pin or squeeze too hard and crush the pin. In my early years I had a less than wonderful result doing this, but I can do it pretty well now. Nowadays I might consider making yet another adapter and rewire the modular side by using a cat5 patch cord and a dual modular jack, wiring the jack with the crosswires as necesary. requires very little by the way of tools, and keeps everything else original. Joe Heck woodelf wrote: > Scott Quinn wrote: > >> I am somewhat flummoxed- I have a 8-pin modular to DB-25 adaptor that >> I need to move some pins on to make if functional with a 3B2 machine, >> but looking at the unused connector positions I can't figure out what >> the retention device is for the installed pins to remove them. It >> doesn't look like a Molex-style clip coming from the pin (2 pins are >> uninserted) and there doesn't seem to be any catches molded into the >> plastic. >> >> Any pointers on how to pull these pins with standard garage tools? > > > Can you re-phrase that? A jack and tire iron come to mind. :) > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 17 17:23:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:23:53 -0500 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have that problem whenever I go to museums of household >> appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of >> thsose" '-) > > "I've been thinking of replacing my old one with one like that" "Oh, so *that's* what it's supposed to look like" (I'm never too bothered if my tools are a little battered, providing I keep the raw function in good shape) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 17:40:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:40:29 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net>, <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca>, <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> > On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:22 PM, woodelf wrote: > The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have > a built in resistor. The world's largest manufacturer of neon bulbs is in the PRC and they'll be delighted to send you a containerload of any variety of NE2 that you'd like in anything from normal to super brightness, as well as in a variety of colors. There's no shortage of these things. Cheers, Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Jul 17 17:58:49 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net>, <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca>, <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:40:29 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available > >> On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:22 PM, woodelf wrote: > >> The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have >> a built in resistor. > > The world's largest manufacturer of neon bulbs is in the PRC and > they'll be delighted to send you a containerload of any variety of > NE2 that you'd like in anything from normal to super brightness, as > well as in a variety of colors. There's no shortage of these things. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I think I just found their website whilst noodling around. They can make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs. Thats a lot of blinky lights... Peter Wallace From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 19:19:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:19:53 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net>, <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <469CFA39.12851.232B7D3E@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2007 at 15:58, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > I think I just found their website whilst noodling around. They can make 2.5 > million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs. > > Thats a lot of blinky lights... Ah, but think of the quantity discount! ;-) Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 17 21:35:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> > >> I have that problem whenever I go to museums of household > >> appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of > >> thsose" '-) > > "I've been thinking of replacing my old one with one like that" On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > "Oh, so *that's* what it's supposed to look like" > (I'm never too bothered if my tools are a little battered, providing I keep > the raw function in good shape) My tools haven't much over the years. I was thinking a little more of that "household appliances" - blenders, waffle irons, toasters, etc. I never had any trouble with toasters with fold down sides, not even the new-fangled electric ones. But ever since I replaced mine with ones with slots that "pop-up", I've never had good control of toasting, nor reliable operation. Some of them have a "bagel" option for less toasting on one side than the other, but they don't give me control of the ratio unless I eject manually and override the controls. Yes, I was VERY unimpressed with the early Macintosh credo of "a computer should be as easy to use as a toaster". (and the first day that I had one, I put a "panic" button on a piece of drill stock for disk ejection) Some years ago, I replaced all of my rotary phones, because of the prevalence of "voice mazes". I've got a Uniden cordless that works well for me, but I've never found a cellphone with comparable sound quality. I never had a carbureted engine that I didn't convert from automatic to manual choke. But, I gave up on that 20 years ago, with electronic fool injection. And it has been 30 years since I last used a crank to start a car engine (2180cc VW with Botch fool injection - too much voltage drop for the "brain" when using the starter motor) Sometimes I think that modern product engineering just doesn't have somebody like me in mind. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 21:57:39 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:57:39 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts In-Reply-To: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> On 7/17/07, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > I had an excellent time this year as usual, even though we initially had > some unforseen problems getting rolling toward Purdue. Lots to see, and I > had a fun time socializing(and on occasion brainstorming) with those I don't > see nearly often enough. The speakers were great and very entertaining, and > Rick did a great job coordinating dinner for Saturday night. As an > exhibitor, I have to say that the turnout was way better than I thought, > especially on Sunday. Yep, I had a good time as well (even if I didn't look like it all the time.) It was great to meet people from the list as well as share a bit of our collections with the general public. Dinner was a fine idea and tasty to boot; I'm glad almost everyone attended. Here are the pictures I took. There ought to be some better quality ones out there, as I saw a few people with real cameras as well: http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/VCFMidwest2007 -j From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Jul 17 22:00:28 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:00:28 -0700 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <469D4DC0.5040409@brutman.com> References: <469D4DC0.5040409@brutman.com> Message-ID: <469D824C.2010907@mindspring.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> Get the cap as close to the chip as you can: think of the trace as a >>> (really low resistance) resistor: the resistance PS-to-cap is is much >>> larger than resistance cap-to-chip and bingo! low-pass filter. >> >> Actually, it's the inductive reactance of the trace/PSU connections >> that matters here. With high-frequency signals -- this doens't mean a >> high clock rate necessarily, it means a fast ris-time edge -- you can >> get significant voltage drop from very small 'inductors', like the >> connction from the chip to the PSU. >> >> -tony >> > > I need some books and a double E degree. One more question ... > > Some of what I'm reading says put the capacitor near the power supply, > and other things are saying get it as close to the chip as possible. > (With a few rules, I'm simplifying.) If the bypass capacitor is being > used to filer the AC component, wouldn't the answer for a good design > be "do both"? > Tony is exactly correct; what degrades the performance of bypass (decoupling) capacitors most directly is the series inductance of PCB traces (and wires), not DC resistance. For good high frequency performance, small bypass caps should be as close as possible to a devices power/ground pins to minimize the inductance. That being said, as you mention there is not just one function of bypass capacitors in a design. Generally speaking, small bypass caps (eg, 10nF-100nF) across a devices power/ground pins serve the function of tying both the DC power and ground rails together at high frequency, shunting noise and providing a very low impedance path between the rails for signal return currents. Larger bulk capacitors (10uF and larger) provide short term charge storage to handle the current transients of the loads that the power supply cannot. Placement on the PCB of these larger bulk caps is usually not critical, and most times is done near the power supply or its connection to the boards (like near the fingers on DEC boards). So to answer your question, usually 'both' are required; larger caps near the power supply connection, and smaller caps per device power-ground pin pair (as a general rule of thumb). From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 22:00:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:00:46 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> References: , <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk>, <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2007 at 19:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > Sometimes I think that modern product engineering just doesn't have > somebody like me in mind. Well, they don't. It sometimes seems like there isn't a modern appliance made that is meant to be repaired. I'll make this vintage computer-oriented. How many people still own a working dishwasher/clothes washer with an integral computer that was manufactured over 10 years ago? When I first saw a dishwasher with computerized control, my reaction was "What a damned fool thing to do--put a computer in the absolutely worst (hot water, caustics, steam) environment possible. Now you can't buy them any other way. 10 years ago, I repaired my TV by replacing a shorted disc cap. Last week, I made the second electronic repair (severe pincoushion effect) by replacing a weak electrolytic with another than was scavenged from a piece of gear made 20 years ago. Works just fine--survived the Loma Prieta quake; bounced off the table to the floor; cracked the bezel (Bondo and spray paint) but worked otherwise. Heaven knows if I'd be able to deal with a modern set. Has anyone noticed the large number of CRT monitors appearing on the giveaway lists? I wonder if that's not a mistake. Folks are trying to avoid the $15 disposal fee. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 22:38:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:38:31 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> References: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/17/07, Jason T wrote: > http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/VCFMidwest2007 Excellent pictures, Jason. One correction - the robot is an RB5X, not an RBSX. I'm sure the font makes it hard to tell. -ethan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 17 22:50:49 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:50:49 -0700 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> References: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707172050.49627.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 17 July 2007 19:57, Jason T wrote: > On 7/17/07, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > I had an excellent time this year as usual, even though we initially had > > some unforseen problems getting rolling toward Purdue. Lots to see, and > > I had a fun time socializing(and on occasion brainstorming) with those I > > don't see nearly often enough. The speakers were great and very > > entertaining, and Rick did a great job coordinating dinner for Saturday > > night. As an exhibitor, I have to say that the turnout was way better > > than I thought, especially on Sunday. > > Yep, I had a good time as well (even if I didn't look like it all the > time.) It was great to meet people from the list as well as share a > bit of our collections with the general public. Dinner was a fine > idea and tasty to boot; I'm glad almost everyone attended. Here are > the pictures I took. There ought to be some better quality ones out > there, as I saw a few people with real cameras as well: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/VCFMidwest2007 Nice pictures! Thanks... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 23:21:44 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:21:44 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707172121s319156b0sfd696fdad074fe96@mail.gmail.com> On 7/17/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Excellent pictures, Jason. One correction - the robot is an RB5X, not > an RBSX. I'm sure the font makes it hard to tell. Fixed! I need to get a real camera. Still, that's not bad quality for a camera-phone (LG 8700VX.) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 23:36:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:36:34 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707172121s319156b0sfd696fdad074fe96@mail.gmail.com> References: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730707172121s319156b0sfd696fdad074fe96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/17/07, Jason T wrote: > On 7/17/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Excellent pictures, Jason. One correction - the robot is an RB5X, not > > an RBSX. I'm sure the font makes it hard to tell. > > Fixed! Thanks! > I need to get a real camera. Still, that's not bad quality for a > camera-phone (LG 8700VX.) Not at all. Probably about as good as my "real" camera (not to descend into an off-topic thread, but mine is a DSLR that was new about 5-6 years ago, thus while it has better glass than a camera phone, I think you probably have a better sensor). I took a look at my handful of pictures - most are worth posting - I just have to find a few spare moments to put them up. -ethan From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jul 17 23:36:39 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:36:39 -0700 Subject: crimp-on D-sub pin removal Message-ID: <2a802a78597978fb280d4037162677dc@valleyimplants.com> > Nowadays I might consider making yet another adapter and rewire the > modular side by using a cat5 patch cord and a dual modular jack, wiring > the jack with the crosswires as necesary. requires very little by the > way of tools, and keeps everything else original. I would have considered that had these been anything special, but I got a bunch of these adaptors from my dad's dental office when they were moving off of their Xenix system (with the Xenix system as well). They are not wired to any standard I know of, and they don't even seem to be wired to the same standard within the lot. I remember fervently wishing that they had used a MicroVAX instead of a PC with SCO. I also wished that I had been paying attention when they were getting rid of the Altos, but that was when I was in 4th grade. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 23:39:29 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:39:29 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" ---snip--- > >Has anyone noticed the large number of CRT monitors appearing on the >giveaway lists? I wonder if that's not a mistake. Folks are trying >to avoid the $15 disposal fee. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Chuck Last time I went to the dump, I didn't have to pay the $15 anymore. They told me I could bring 2 CRT's in without having to pay. They said that when people buy new ones, they charge a disposal fee, like they do on tires now. They did this because there was too much dumping along the roads. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jul 17 23:45:10 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:45:10 -0700 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor Message-ID: > Is there a > good tutorial somewhere that explains how capacitors are used for > decoupling and smoothing? (I've checked some obvious sources, but I > need more detail, like if you connect a cap to a +5 source and ground, > why doesn't it just discharge completely ...) > Look at a book dealing with the design of PSUs, or a introductory electronics course. The basic rundown is this: Capacitors and inductors have reactance across them when fed A.C. Reactance is an opposing force that works against the flow of current, in this respect it's similar to resistance, but resistance is the same across all frequencies, reactance varies (for a given reactive load, X(L) (inductive reactance) goes up as frequency increases, X(c) (capacitive reactance) goes down. Impedance is the combination of reactance+resistance. For a DC supply with ripple, you can think of it as 2 mixed components: a DC component and an AC component. The capacitive reactance is chosen to present a low impedance path to the AC component so it travels through the capacitor rather than into the chip. Inductive reactance figures in because (as mentioned) the traces have inductance, and the capacitor also has inductance (so a large capacitor to smooth a high-frequency AC component might not be the best choice- all of that metal provides inductance that opposes the flow of the AC component). Help any? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 18 00:01:31 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:01:31 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469C8C47.25921.217E05FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 17 Jul 2007 at 6:57, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I wonder how he got the needed amplification? Did he > > use some form of magamp? > > Dwight > >That's my understanding of the priciple of operation. > >For what it's worth, Ferractor logic isn't the only deployed form of >computer core logic. There's also the Parametron: > >http://www.ipsj.or.jp/katsudou/museum/computer/0080_e.html > > Hi Chuck I already understand the Paremetrons. I'd looked into them before. They work on the principle of the divide by two with these resonant cores. Since the divide by two can take on one of two phase relations with the clock, it can be one or zero by the phase. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 17 14:29:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:29:18 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available Message-ID: <0JLC00DJI8RZBV36@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available > From: woodelf > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:22:41 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Bob Bradlee wrote: > >> And never dialing Zero! >> otherwise an operator error will occure :) >Drat... I can't get all the parts. :) >Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... If I got the >phone with a dial it would work better than the $10 one I have. >The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have >a built in resistor. A dial comes from an old phone, check a thrift. The NE-2s are still very available from most decent electronic parts suppliers. The trick to age NE-2s is run them at 50% over rated for a week (at lest 40 hours) and they will stabilize nicely. If you need to grade/match the aged NE-2s a 500hz relaxation osc and a scope will allow viewing the upper (fire voltage) and lower (extinguish) voltage as well as sensitivity to light very quickly. Hint, light should be incandecsent or the osc will try to sync on the flourescent flicker. Allison From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jul 17 14:43:50 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:43:50 +0100 Subject: LEO (1950) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D390230BF@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I happened on the program by chance. It might have been called Disappearing Britain. A lot of it was contemporaneous and could have been a Lyons publicity film. (or at least bits of one). I suspect our friends at the National Film Archive might know. I inadvertently made an ambiguous statement. By commercial I meant its use, not its availability for sale. Where would you start to design such a thing? Valves yes.. 12AT7 Bistables as binary counters. Neon devices such as dekatrons as decimal counters. RVL (Resistor Valve Logic). Storage = Ferrite Cores, Tape, Drum possibly. I once saw a Univac FAST RAN Drum memory. What a lump!!! Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 16 July 2007 22:45 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: LEO (1950) Rod Smallwood wrote: > I just caught a part of a TV program showing pictures of and the use > of a computer called LEO. That wasn't the James May thing that aired last Tuesday was it? I think it was something along the lines of 'the history of science', and I wondered what they'd show for origins of the computer - sadly I wasn't around when the show was on though to see. > Anybody know of another real commercial electronic computer before 1950? Hmm, the Ferranti Mark 1 (based on the Manchester Baby) was a commercial machine and built around that same sort of time. I'm not sure if the Ferranti machine was the first to be sold to someone (rather than being used in-house) or whether the LEO was. (Actually, I'm not sure if LEO I was ever used outside of Lyons - I think it may have been the later LEO II that was their first true commercial machine) cheers Jules From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Jul 17 15:10:44 2007 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:10:44 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts Message-ID: I had an excellent time this year as usual, even though we initially had some unforseen problems getting rolling toward Purdue. Lots to see, and I had a fun time socializing(and on occasion brainstorming) with those I don't see nearly often enough. The speakers were great and very entertaining, and Rick did a great job coordinating dinner for Saturday night. As an exhibitor, I have to say that the turnout was way better than I thought, especially on Sunday. Thanks to everyone involved for making this not only a success but an entertaining endevour as well. Looking forward to 4.0! Julian From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 18 00:44:19 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 01:44:19 -0400 Subject: Looking for RX211 and/or RXV21 Message-ID: <200707180144.19281.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm looking for an RX211 (M8256) and/or RXV21 (M8029) to go with the RX02 I just picked up (don't know if it works yet)... less than "eBay Store" prices would be nice. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 18 00:50:22 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:50:22 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net>, <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca>, <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > I think I just found their website whilst noodling around. They can make > 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs. I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966 computer. :) I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. > Thats a lot of blinky lights... > Peter Wallace PS. One can get them built to the proper specs for switching I would guess. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 00:52:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 00:52:38 -0500 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <0JLC00DJI8RZBV36@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JLC00DJI8RZBV36@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 7/17/07, Allison wrote: > The trick to age NE-2s is run them at 50% over rated for a week > (at lest 40 hours) and they will stabilize nicely. That sounds like the technique described in the article. > Hint, light should be incandecsent or the osc will try to sync > on the flourescent flicker. Interesting - with the U.S. changing to compact flourescents, that sensitivity could be a problem in the future. One might have to run NE-2 oscillators in a dark room or perhaps in full sunlight - just not "reading level" fluorescent light. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 18 00:54:39 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 01:54:39 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net>, <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca>, <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2007, at 1:50 AM, woodelf wrote: >> I think I just found their website whilst noodling around. They >> can make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs. > > I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966 > computer. :) > I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. I'd bet it'd be a fraction of that price, based on the fact that Mouser Electronics sells NE-2E bulbs for $0.34/ea in single-unit quantities. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 18 01:04:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 00:04:29 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <0JLC00DJI8RZBV36@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JLC00DJI8RZBV36@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <469DAD6D.80506@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > A dial comes from an old phone, check a thrift. > The NE-2s are still very available from most decent electronic > parts suppliers. Both are figments of your imgination - none around - thrift stores or decent electronic parts suppliers . But I did download the PDF so some day in the far future... > Allison > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 18 01:12:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 02:12:40 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469DAD6D.80506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JLC00DJI8RZBV36@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <469DAD6D.80506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0F26910C-2311-4F95-82BC-1EB0C0AC280F@neurotica.com> On Jul 18, 2007, at 2:04 AM, woodelf wrote: >> A dial comes from an old phone, check a thrift. > >> The NE-2s are still very available from most decent electronic >> parts suppliers. > > Both are figments of your imgination - none around - thrift stores > or decent electronic parts suppliers . > But I did download the PDF so some day in the far future... Here, dial phones fetch $40-50 at thrift stores nowadays. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 18 01:13:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:13:15 -0700 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <469C8C47.25921.217E05FF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <469D4D0B.1050.246EFD7A@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2007 at 22:01, dwight elvey wrote: > I already understand the Paremetrons. I'd looked into them before. > They work on the principle of the divide by two with these resonant > cores. Since the divide by two can take on one of two phase > relations with the clock, it can be one or zero by the phase. There was (never commercially deployed, AFAIK) a scheme using striplines doing much the same sort of thing with microwaves. I recall reading about it back in the 60's. There are a couple of "newly discovered" US patents on the subject, so I suppose the prior art isn't well known. At about the same time I seem to recall, there was a discussion of encoding information in the form of nuclear spin in, for example, the hydrogen nuclei in a bottle of water. The scheme is very hazy in my memory, but one of the gotchas was that it was LIFO and not random- access. Maybe someone on the list remembers more about this than I. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 18 01:21:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:21:21 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <0JLC00DJI8RZBV36@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, Message-ID: <469D4EF1.4613.247665CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jul 2007 at 0:52, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Interesting - with the U.S. changing to compact flourescents, that > sensitivity could be a problem in the future. One might have to run > NE-2 oscillators in a dark room or perhaps in full sunlight - just not > "reading level" fluorescent light. Why not use a small radioactive source? I wonder if some Am-241 cannibalized from an ionization smoke detector might do the trick? Or perhaps some paint over the bulbs to block light completely... Cheers, Chuck From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jul 18 03:22:55 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:22:55 +0100 Subject: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 29, Message 9 Subject: LEO (1950) References: <200707171709.l6HH8EYj017742@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005501c7c914$e53bd120$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:29:07 +0100 > From: Rob > Subject: Re: Vol 47, Issue 28, message 10, Subject: LEO (1950) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > .. except i had a sudden thought, and checked, and in the couple of > years since I last drove past the site, a Tesco supermarket has > apparently sprung up... Neither multimap.com or google earth > satellite photos have yet caught up... > > Sigh.. > Tescos are killing our computer history - ? to qualify - The National Gas Turbine Establishment (NGTE, Farnborough) has been partially derilict for the last 10 years or so, on that site were an Elliott 803B, SDS9300, DEC PDP-7 and 11-05, and more, I helped maintain them. Tesco wants to build a 1,000,000 sq ft distribution depot, apparently it will be one of the biggest buildings in the Uk,.with 1600 38 ton lorry (non motorway) movements a day, nothing good will come of it. I'd love to get hold of the PDP7. From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jul 18 03:30:27 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:30:27 +0100 Subject: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 30 Capacitor ident References: <200707172307.l6HN6cYe023494@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005701c7c915$e5f62b00$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> > I'm trying to reverse engineer a board that I have and I've bumped into > a component that I don't understand the markings on. If you would like > to help, a picture can be found here: > > http://brutman.com/2007_0717_124331.JPG > That is a Tanatalum bead capacitor, 1uF 35V Dc rating, the + is for the +ve lead, which is a different length to the -ve lead when the component is new before soldering. 104 is 10 +0000 pf, 100,000 pf, 0.1uF, voltage rating unknown but probably in the 50Vdc-63Vac range. A common pairing for bulk decoupling on power lines or planes. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 18 03:27:26 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:27:26 -0500 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <469DCEEE.4000407@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > I never had any trouble with toasters with fold down sides, not even the > new-fangled electric ones. But ever since I replaced mine with ones with > slots that "pop-up", I've never had good control of toasting, nor > reliable operation. When I'm not in a rush, I tend to use a fork and hold the bread over the burner on the stove - no even toasting there, but somehow it just tastes so much nicer than any toaster I've yet come across. > Yes, I was VERY unimpressed with the early Macintosh credo > of "a computer should be as easy to use as a toaster". Self-contained solutions are great when: 1) The system's reliable and bug-free, 2) The user never wants to expand the system beyond what the designers envisaged. Sadly I've never come across a system which meets those criteria. > Some years ago, I replaced all of my rotary phones, because of the > prevalence of "voice mazes". I've got a Uniden cordless that works well > for me, but I've never found a cellphone with comparable sound quality. The one next to me here is a rotary (1967 I think, a GPO 706) - when I get time it'll be replaced by my 1940's one (a 162), but as I need to wire up a separate bell set for that one it's one of those things I never quite seem to get around to! > Sometimes I think that modern product engineering just doesn't have > somebody like me in mind. Personally I think it just doesn't have human nature in mind. People are always going to want to use systems in ways that the designers didn't intend. The trick I think is to make these things *possible*, but not at the expense of piling in lots of functionality and features from the outset (with all the extra cost, complexity, and risk of bugs creeping in when comes from that). Keep it simple, keep it 'open' (to use a modern term), and acknowledge that people are going to want to hack, kludge and expand in ways that you never thought of. That's where a good product lies, not with something that tries to be all things to all people and ends up doing none of them well. To bring this back on topic, look at vintage micros - the most successful ones were always the ones where people could modify them and add bits on to suit their own personal needs. cheers Jules From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jul 18 03:51:52 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:51:52 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 30, message 30, identify a capacitor Message-ID: <005d01c7c918$e3019bc0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> > Message: 30 > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:16:16 -0600 > From: "Michael B. Brutman" > Subject: Re: Help identifying a capacitor > Some of what I'm reading says put the capacitor near the power supply, > and other things are saying get it as close to the chip as possible. > > The board I posted about is not optimal in this regard. It's an ISA bus > to PCjr bus adapter, so there is no TTL logic anywhere on the board - > the individual ISA cards have the TTL (and hopefully bypass capacitors). > In this application was the designer just trying to 'clean up' the > voltage sources for the TTL on the cards a little bit? > >From some years in pcb design shop. Bulk decoupling where the power enters the board 10-100uF + 0.1uF. Then a 0.01-0.1uF per Ic (for TTL that is). Keep the traces from the power pins to caps as short and fat as possible. Powers should ideally be planes or gridded traces. Newer logic families / packaging (TQFP, PLCC Etc), usually have very specific decoupling requirements set my the manufacturer From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 18 03:41:41 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:41:41 -0500 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk>, <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <469DD245.20809@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I'll make this vintage computer-oriented. How many people still own > a working dishwasher/clothes washer with an integral computer that > was manufactured over 10 years ago? Aside from the longevity, my big gripe there is the step backwards in the UI - lots of modern washers seem to just have a few little LEDs to give a basic indication of what they're up to. Back in the days of timers, you could see exactly what was going on and how long things had left to run - but now such functionality seems to be treated as a luxury item and only comes on the more expensive models. > 10 years ago, I repaired my TV by replacing a shorted disc cap. Mine's horrible - it spends about 50% of its life in a failure mode where response from the remote goes really sluggish and the sound cuts out with just the occasional faint buzzing noise. It's a mass of microprocessors and big custom chips inside though, so other than the obvious checks for bad joints and flakey caps there's been nothing I can do with it. It's times like that when I really start cursing the "progress" that computers have brought :-( > Has anyone noticed the large number of CRT monitors appearing on the > giveaway lists? I wonder if that's not a mistake. Yeah, lots of them this side of the pond too. I still find a CRT far nicer to work with than an LCD though - probably because a CRT gives more of an aliasing effect that looks more "natural" than the crisp jaggedness of an LCD display. Although the modern way seems to be to have as crisp an LCD as possible, then compensate by requiring masses of video memory, a fast CPU, and aliasing everything in software ;) The display on the PC is sadly a 19" LCD since the 21" Iiyama I had went bang (LOPT death) - I'm keeping an eye out for another big CRT though (plus there was a nice wide expanse of space above the face of the CRT which was very useful for perching 'pending' papers on top of - my desk's a lot messier since the LCD came along :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 18 03:45:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:45:09 -0500 Subject: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 29, Message 9 Subject: LEO (1950) In-Reply-To: <005501c7c914$e53bd120$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> References: <200707171709.l6HH8EYj017742@dewey.classiccmp.org> <005501c7c914$e53bd120$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> Message-ID: <469DD315.3060104@yahoo.co.uk> Mike Hatch wrote: > The National Gas Turbine Establishment (NGTE, Farnborough) has been > partially derilict for the last 10 years or so, on that site were an > Elliott 803B, SDS9300, DEC PDP-7 and 11-05, and more Long-gone presumably? Sites seem to often get cleared of fixtures and fittings really quickly in the UK compared to other countries for some reason. Plus, even if there was anything left, the kids seem to trash everything they can and of course the petty thieves move in for metals like copper. > them. Tesco wants to build a 1,000,000 sq ft distribution depot, > apparently it will be one of the biggest buildings in the Uk,.with 1600 > 38 ton lorry (non motorway) movements a day, nothing good will come of > it. The government won't need a national ID database and ID cards, they'll just borrow Tesco's ;) From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 18 08:08:28 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:08:28 -0500 Subject: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available] In-Reply-To: <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> At 10:00 PM 7/17/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Has anyone noticed the large number of CRT monitors appearing on the >giveaway lists? I wonder if that's not a mistake. Folks are trying >to avoid the $15 disposal fee. It isn't if you need yet another PC-oriented monitor. It certainly is if you have equipment that likes a video scan mode that isn't supported by today's LCDs. As I'm sure you imply, not all CRTs were the same when it came to various sync and scan modes. I have a great Sony broadcast industry TV resting in the basement that I'd like to resurrect someday because it handled so many signal types. A similar problem extends back into the RS-170 composite-mode era of home computers. Devices from 20 years ago tossed out all sorts of approximations of "composite mono video" and older TVs might handle it better than newer TVs with less forgiving circuitry. I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other day. Plug it in as a pass-through with two VGA 15-pin connectors so I watch the video. Press a button, capture the image as a bitmap for me. Has a USB plug so I can fetch it with another computer. This would be great for recording text-mode screens as well as other VGA-mode error messages. I'm tired of transcribing them. It wouldn't be hard for this device to decipher which video mode (rez, scan rate, etc.) was being shown and display it on a little LCD. With a few adapters, it could handle non-VGA-ish signals. - John From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Jul 18 08:23:53 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:23:53 +0100 Subject: LEO (1950) In-Reply-To: <200707180906.l6I952oI032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707180906.l6I952oI032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1778FBA1-D5A3-4EFE-B367-2D938F684FF7@microspot.co.uk> > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:43:50 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > I happened on the program by chance. It might have been called > Disappearing Britain. A lot of it was contemporaneous and could have > been a Lyons publicity film. (or at least bits of one). I suspect our > friends at the National Film Archive might know. I suspect it is a contemporary promotional film on the Leo II dated 1957 and mentions that it has been working since 1953 - referring to Leo 1 I think, it is black and white and if that's it, I have it on a DVD published by Buzz KnowledgeWorks which I bought on eBay. > > I inadvertently made an ambiguous statement. By commercial I meant its > use, not its availability for sale. I knew what you meant. Most early designs were one or two off scientific machines, price no object. > Where would you start to design such a thing? Valves yes.. 12AT7 > Bistables as binary counters. Neon devices such as dekatrons as > decimal > counters. RVL (Resistor Valve Logic). Storage = Ferrite Cores, Tape, > Drum possibly. I'm not sure many commercial machines were made with valves logic and a main memory of core. Transistors and core main memory often came in together. The ICT1200 series (AKA Hollerrith Electronic Computer) was drum main memory and valves but its replacement the ICT1300 series used "high speed switching transistors" and core memory with backing store of drum and optionally tape. > I once saw a Univac FAST RAN Drum memory. What a lump!!! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 08:25:35 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:25:35 -0400 Subject: Interesting hardware and computer intellect In-Reply-To: References: <469C1F50.4000109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0707180625j7541aa56ka6878765be53fe0c@mail.gmail.com> I did some more research, the documentary I was trying to remember was about Professor Hugo de Garis, when he was working for Starlab in Belgium until they went bankrupt. http://www.iss.whu.edu.cn/degaris/news/bankrupt.html Wiki info on de Garis and his ideas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_de_Garis Info on Starlab, including the Discovery channel documentary: http://www.space-time.info/starlab/StarlabArchive.html From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 18 09:12:38 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:12:38 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <200707171254.l6HCsUDl082610@keith.ezwind.net> <469CE303.1040200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200707181012.38648.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 July 2007 14:41, William Donzelli wrote: > > They need I think about 100 hours to burn in.I suspect neon tubes would > > do the same. > > Any "burn in" of gas tubes or neons is done before the tubes leave the > factory. It is all downhill from there. The NE-2s, downhill is steep. I seem to remember some project or other in electronic magazines back when talking about doing just that, though... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 10:59:28 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:59:28 -0500 Subject: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available] In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> References: <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> Message-ID: On 7/18/07, John Foust wrote: > It certainly is if you have equipment that likes a video scan mode > that isn't supported by today's LCDs... > > A similar problem extends back into the RS-170 composite-mode > era of home computers. Devices from 20 years ago tossed out > all sorts of approximations of "composite mono video" and > older TVs might handle it better than newer TVs with > less forgiving circuitry. I have had that specific problem with RCA 1861 "Pixie" graphics - I can get viewable images on 1970s-era CRTs and TVs with no problem, but I could not, for example, get a stable picture with an Apple 5" CRT (used with the Apple IIc line), or a DEC VR201 (+12VDC/RS170 mono monitor for Rainbow, DECmate, Professional, etc.) nor any sort of recently-manufactured TV or LCD. Depending on the exact output device in question, either I see pixels but can't get a frame to properly lock, or I don't see anything at all. > I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other day. Plug it in > as a pass-through with two VGA 15-pin connectors so I watch > the video. Press a button, capture the image as a bitmap for me. > Has a USB plug so I can fetch it with another computer. Hmm... interesting thought. For my Pixie problem I had been looking at a 4066-based circuit from Don Lancaster's "CMOS Cookbook" - from memory, you run the 4066 off of +5V and -5V rails, then hook your Hsync, Vsync, and video outputs to three of the switch enable inputs to the 4066. The 4066, in effect, synthesizes a "proper" RS170 signal from various appropriate voltage levels rather than the standard Pixie technique of summing those signals through resistors and letting the CRT sort it out. One of the things I'm not sure about is if a device of this sort would need an isolated +5V supply to work or not. I can use my Spare Time Gizmos STG1861 Pixie emulator ( http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Elf2K_Accessories.htm ), populated with modern parts, so I don't have to risk a real CDP1861 if I screw something up. At the very least, I think I could breadboard a 4066 as described in the CMOS Cookbook, then get -5V from an ICL7660 (I have a few lying around, and it's still available as a MAX7660). I could also be paranoid and use a 4050 as a buffer/level shifter between the Elf and the 4066, but that might not be required. Comments? -ethan From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 18 13:38:02 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <200707171709.l6HH8EYs017742@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <785387.16807.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > cclist at sydex.com wrote: > Here's a Wikipedia article about one of the early pioneers in ferrite > logic, Hewitt Crane: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewitt_Crane And here's a ground-breaking computer that contributed tremendously to the development of core memory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirlwind_Computer and the excellent book about it: >From Whirlwind to MITRE: The R&D Story of The SAGE Air Defense Computer http://tinyurl.com/2987kc Best, Bill ------------------------ ?Shoot THE DUCK! Shoot THE DUCK!? - Bugs Bunny ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 18 13:53:36 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707172307.l6HN6cYn023494@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <96082.23664.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I can't find the beginning of this thread and I see no links to a scanned magazine article in any reply to the original post. Can someone please give me the link to this scan if one was offered? Best, Bill ------------------------ ?Shoot THE DUCK! Shoot THE DUCK!? - Bugs Bunny ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Jul 18 16:25:23 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:25:23 -0700 Subject: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 29, Message 9 Subject: LEO (1950) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C73D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Mike Hatch wrote: > Tescos are killing our computer history - ? to qualify - The National Gas Turbine Establishment (NGTE, Farnborough) has been partially derilict for the last 10 years or so, on that site were an Elliott 803B, SDS9300, DEC PDP-7 and 11-05, and more, I helped maintain them. Tesco wants to build a 1,000,000 sq ft distribution depot, apparently it will be one of the biggest buildings in the Uk,.with 1600 38 ton lorry (non motorway) movements a day, nothing good will come of it. I'd love to get hold of the PDP7. ------------------------- Billy wrote: Not certain if anyone on the list is aware, but the UK is now exporting this fine establishment. One of the very first Tesco stores in the US is being built less than a mile from my house in Laguna Woods. (The huge distribution centers are already completed.) Turnabout seems fair play after what we gave the UK - MacDonald's, KFC, Pizza Hut, etc. Billy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 18 17:53:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available] In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> Message-ID: <320391.24146.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > scan modes. I have a great Sony broadcast industry > TV resting > in the basement that I'd like to resurrect someday > because it > handled so many signal types. Analog as well as digital (RGBI) signals? > A similar problem extends back into the RS-170 > composite-mode > era of home computers. Devices from 20 years ago > tossed out > all sorts of approximations of "composite mono > video" and > older TVs might handle it better than newer TVs with > less forgiving circuitry. Yeah like that shoddy method of generating the "back porch". You got to watch for that one ;) > I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other day. > Plug it in > as a pass-through with two VGA 15-pin connectors so > I watch > the video. Press a button, capture the image as a > bitmap for me. > Has a USB plug so I can fetch it with another > computer. This would > be great for recording text-mode screens as well as > other VGA-mode > error messages. I'm tired of transcribing them. It > wouldn't > be hard for this device to decipher which video mode > (rez, scan rate, etc.) was being shown and display > it on > a little LCD. With a few adapters, it could handle > non-VGA-ish signals. Interesting. Along similar lines if the Windows clipboard thing allowed you to capture multiple screen shots or portions of text, and insert the one you choose, it would be a boon. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 18 17:25:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:25:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469D3719.9040609@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Jul 17, 7 03:39:37 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I have that problem whenever I go to museums of household > > appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of > > thsose" '-) > > Chuckling to self ... I don't have to have a phone with a crank > to call you ; do I? No, I'm on a CB/CBS (Central Battery / Central Battery Signalling) exchange :-)... On the other hand I do have a Linesmans Set with a transistorised oscillator (runs off 3 D cells inside) that does the job of said magneto :-) > > > -tony > PS. I all know about you is that you have some sort of email access. :) What do tyou want to know.... I think it's fairly well-known that, to put it politely, I don't necessarily approve of the latest technology. In particular, I don't rely on anything I don't understand and can't repair (those are not the same thing, although they are related). Of course my defintion of 'repair' may not be the same as other people's. I aosl will not trade performace for convenience. All too often modern stuff seems to be more convenient (to the Luser, not necessarily to the techie) than that which came before, but it delivers a much worse performance. Sorry, I'll stick with having to tweak the convergence panel in my TV and monitor if I move them rather than have the inferoir picture of later designs, I'll stick with havign to load my double dark slides and compose my picture on a ground glass screen if it means I cna have buildings that dont appear to be falling over, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 18 17:27:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:27:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 17, 7 02:48:00 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have that problem whenever I go to museums of household > > appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of > > thsose" '-) > > "I've been thinking of replacing my old one with one like that" Well, several times I've said 'That's modern, I've got the previosu model still in use'. And no, I won't sell it... I rememeber once seeing a mock-up of a watchmaker's shop in a museum in the timekeeping seciton. I think I had every single tool displayed on that bench at home -- not just similar tools, but absolutely identcial ones. And yse, I do still use them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 18 17:46:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:46:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 17, 7 07:35:07 pm Message-ID: > > "Oh, so *that's* what it's supposed to look like" > > (I'm never too bothered if my tools are a little battered, providing I keep > > the raw function in good shape) > > My tools haven't much over the years. > I was thinking a little more of that "household appliances" - blenders, > waffle irons, toasters, etc. We still use a handheld vacuum cleaner here that's over 70 years old. In that time I've replaced the carbon brushes in the motor and the mains cable, that's it... Other things are not quite as old, but certainly not what you'd call 'new' :-) > > I never had any trouble with toasters with fold down sides, not even the > new-fangled electric ones. But ever since I replaced mine with ones with > slots that "pop-up", I've never had good control of toasting, nor At one times toasters had elements wound with a non-constnnt pitch, the turns further apart at the top. The idea was that since hot air rises, doing that would give a more even heat distribution and more even toasting. Alas, since they were more expensive to make, they don't do that any more :-( > Yes, I was VERY unimpressed with the early Macintosh credo > of "a computer should be as easy to use as a toaster". > (and the first day that I had one, I put a "panic" button on a piece of > drill stock for disk ejection) I objected to the entire Macintosh philosopy. Any company that thinks it knows what I want, and has the arogoance to tell me I don't need to (and can't) do things any other way is plain WRONG! Nearly always when I buy someting it is with the intention of modifying it. Companies I like to deal with appreciate this and design their products to be modified, to have bits added on, and so on... > Sometimes I think that modern product engineering just doesn't have > somebody like me in mind. Nor me... They stopped having me in mind when they stopped putting schematics in the user manual, when cars stopped coming with _useful_ handbooks (at the very least I expect a wiring diagram and torque settings for the important engine bolts) and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 18 17:39:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:39:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <469D4DC0.5040409@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Jul 17, 7 05:16:16 pm Message-ID: > I need some books and a double E degree. One more question ... I have the former, but not the latter :-) > > Some of what I'm reading says put the capacitor near the power supply, > and other things are saying get it as close to the chip as possible. > (With a few rules, I'm simplifying.) If the bypass capacitor is being > used to filer the AC component, wouldn't the answer for a good design be > "do both"? YEs.. Typically a 0.1uF per chip (maybe per power-coonnection on a chip) and a larger capacitor near the power input. Remember that capcaitors have self-inductance, whci hcan be considerable for some types. That's why you don't use aluminium electrolytics for decoupling at the IS pins. As I've said to many designers starting out '0.1uF capacitors are cheap, my time in finding a nasty logic glitch isn't'. In other words, it's hard to over-decouple, if in doubt, add the capacitor. Maybe if you're in production you want to save a few cents on each PCB (but to be honest, I'd ratehr may a few _bucks_ more per PCB and have something that works properly), but not for experimentaly designs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 18 17:54:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:54:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 17, 7 08:00:46 pm Message-ID: > > I'll make this vintage computer-oriented. How many people still own > a working dishwasher/clothes washer with an integral computer that > was manufactured over 10 years ago? When I first saw a dishwasher > with computerized control, my reaction was "What a damned fool thing > to do--put a computer in the absolutely worst (hot water, caustics, > steam) environment possible. Now you can't buy them any other way. I think my parents bought some of the last electormechanically-controlled models made.. You can see the manufacturer's point. A custom chip is a lot cheaper to make than a cam-and-contacts timer. They can put the magic words 'computer', 'microprocessor',. 'digital', etc on the panel. And it's harder to repair if it fails (if a mechanical timer fails, you can fix it, if the microprocessor fails, you have to buy a new PCB from the manufacturers, if they don't want to sell you one, you're stuffed). But now do you see why I stick to the old stuff... -tony From rcini at optonline.net Wed Jul 18 18:35:56 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:35:56 -0400 Subject: Magazines available Message-ID: All: A chap in the Beantown region emailed me with a list of magazines he has that he needs to find a home for. If anyone is interested, let me know and I?ll pass on his information. Here?s what?s available: > Apple II Computers > 1" APDAlog (Apple Developers) 1987-89 > 5" Apple Orchard 1980-84 > 1" applesauce 1981 > 11" Call-A.P.P.L.E. 1981-89 > 5" (Hardcore) Computist 1987 > 2" Peelings II 1982-84 > > Computers, esp. Microcomputers > 3" one each: MACazine, etc 1980-87 > > Technical Specialized Computers/Electronics > 2" C Users Journal 1989 > 4" Dr. Dobb's Journal of Software Tools 1983-89 > 5" Embedded Systems Programming 1989-92 > 5" MicroSystems Journal 1984-88 > 1" Computer Smyth 1985-86 - Vol.1 No.1+ Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 18 15:42:01 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:42:01 +0000 Subject: dying capacitors Re: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <469D4DC0.5040409@brutman.com> References: Message-ID: <20070719004031.ZLGJ1673.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Get the cap as close to the chip as you can: think of the trace as a > >> (really low resistance) resistor: the resistance PS-to-cap is is much > >> larger than resistance cap-to-chip and bingo! low-pass filter. > > > > Actually, it's the inductive reactance of the trace/PSU connections > > that matters here. With high-frequency signals -- this doens't mean a > > high clock rate necessarily, it means a fast ris-time edge -- you can > > get significant voltage drop from very small 'inductors', like the > > connction from the chip to the PSU. > > > > -tony In my 5 years of TV repair only one I needed your experts to figure out and inprove the reliablity of these sets as they are premium series. I have a bad time with PARTICULAR switching power supply design that likes to make a diode HOT also capacitor on that output to self-heat as well. This makes frequent repairs that lasts from 9 months to 2 years at the most on that capacitor. Even this capacitors is designed for high freq SMPSes. This is usually found in JVC AV-xx980, 820, 985 series, more worse if it is equipped with guide + module. This SMPS is based around STR-F6626 IC. I don't fault this if it's designed according to the Sanken suggested circuit design and I really liked these STR-xxxxx series as they tend to gracefully shut down without any blow ups. Only this JVC made this extremely complicated and problematic when it finally give me problems like this with hot diode and self-cooking capacitor. On hot side, there is 2 extra circuits that sanken sample circuits don't use: one regulator fed with DC from SMPS transformer and there is extra circuit for the off/on standby mode that ties into the error/feedback regulation pin on the STR IC. This pin is also fed from the optisolator for the feedback from cold side again complex too. Two circuits sharing this optisolator. One is for 13V supply used for standby and supply for many low voltage devices so it takes fair current but I doubt this is a issue. And 135V error feedback circuit using SE135 IC that is disabled when in standby. Pretty complicated. When new, JVC sets usually lasts several years then this C926 1000uF 35V finally gives out on that 13V standby/supply line and STR-F6626 shuts down in self-protection. Also this diode (around 3A RU3YX diode) runs hot. Even hotter in standby! Same thing with capacitor, it is not heated by that diode, the capacitor also self-heats but not as severe. Eventually cap fails. I have tried all kinds of capacitors, 105C, 85C, jellybean cap, special cap, even low ESR, even high freq. They simply die only on that 13V supply. Farther from this on same 13V supply is not a problem. Even I resorted to replace this diode with TO-220 diode with small heatsink, still get hot. There is other cold side 3 outputs also, the two outputs are directly fed by their seperate diodes and have no issues with heat, and 3rd is via relay to a diode and a capacitor for the 135V supply for horizontal circuit. Again, no issues with this. Only the 13V capacitor/diode is the thorn! There are plenty of makes that successfully used STR-F66xx series with no issues but just this particular! Oh my. Help? Cheers, Wizard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 18 19:45:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 18:45:39 -0600 Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469EB433.7060400@jetnet.ab.ca> Does anyone have the datasheets on the AMD 2901 bit slice? I have the data sheet on the 2901A/2901B/, but it would be nice to have some timings from the 2901. Set up time A,B source : TpwL+?ns Delay time from A,B reg to ~G,~P : ?ns Delay time from Cn to Cn+4 : ?ns Thank you even if I get no response. Ben alias Woodelf. From wizard at voyager.net Wed Jul 18 22:01:17 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:01:17 -0400 Subject: VGA Capture In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> References: <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> Message-ID: <1184814077.16117.13.camel@Darth.Databasics> Subject line was out of control at: Re: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available] On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 08:08 -0500, John Foust wrote: > I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other day. Plug it in > as a pass-through with two VGA 15-pin connectors so I watch > the video. Press a button, capture the image as a bitmap for me. This sounds like a VGA version of the Snappy, a device by Play, which captures stills from composite video, and connects to a PC via a bi-directional parallel port. Those can be had for about $13, since Play folded. I have one, and have found it useful. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 22:19:22 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:19:22 -0500 Subject: Looking for RX211 and/or RXV21 In-Reply-To: <200707180144.19281.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200707180144.19281.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <624966d60707182019k554fd2c4k27fbe1325aa393f@mail.gmail.com> Hi Patrick, I have severalof each, and could have brought them to VCF! I'll try to did out a price tomorrow. Paul Anderson On 7/18/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I'm looking for an RX211 (M8256) and/or RXV21 (M8029) to go with the > RX02 I just picked up (don't know if it works yet)... less than "eBay > Store" prices would be nice. :) > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Jul 19 02:59:30 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:59:30 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 32, Message 1, LEO (1950) NGTE References: <200707181701.l6IH12SZ036254@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007101c7c9da$bd4afc10$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 29, Message 9 > Subject: LEO (1950) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Long-gone presumably? Sites seem to often get cleared of fixtures and > fittings > really quickly in the UK compared to other countries for some reason. > Plus, > even if there was anything left, the kids seem to trash everything they > can > and of course the petty thieves move in for metals like copper. > NGTE as a site is sitll there in its entirity, Google for it and you will find lots of Urban Exploration groups listing NGTE. The site is still partially used, the computer suite is one of the buildings you cannot get into so some of the mainframes - might - just still be there, but who to contact ? to find out. >> Tesco wants to build a 1,000,000 sq ft distribution depot, >> apparently it will be one of the biggest buildings in the Uk,.with 1600 >> 38 ton lorry (non motorway) movements a day, nothing good will come of >> it. > > The government won't need a national ID database and ID cards, they'll > just > borrow Tesco's ;) > From dgreelish at mac.com Thu Jul 19 07:53:08 2007 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 05:53:08 -0700 Subject: Ebuyer.com runs on a Commodore 64! In-Reply-To: <200707180906.l6I952oD032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707180906.l6I952oD032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20642BDB-0113-1000-8BBB-4D52CA6D445B-Webmail-10007@mac.com> Has anyone else read this short tech news piece? Wow, how do they do that? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/07/ebuyer_runs_site_on_commodore64/ Best, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jul 18 02:12:22 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:12:22 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1184742742.6122.9.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 19:35 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > I never had a carbureted engine that I didn't convert from automatic to > manual choke. But, I gave up on that 20 years ago, with electronic fool > injection. And it has been 30 years since I last used a crank to start a > car engine (2180cc VW with Botch fool injection - too much voltage drop > for the "brain" when using the starter motor) Hugely off-topic, but it's funny you should mention that... I just handle-started something for the first time in about four years - my mate's Landrover Series 3 had just about enough in the battery for the ignition, but not the starter. Prior to that I'd handle-started my 1983 Citro?n GSA when we had a very severe winter. Nearly every morning it was the only car on the street that started first time, thanks to the Mk.1 Armstrong starter. There's a knack to it... Gordon From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Jul 18 02:07:12 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:07:12 +0200 Subject: core-logic clock / was Re: TTL homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <469CA19D.15129.21D15C59@cclist.sydex.com> References: <469BF30B.21649.1F277059@cclist.sydex.com>, <469C8C47.25921.217E05FF@cclist.sydex.com>, <200707171705.l6HH5OYv001468@keith.ezwind.net> <469CA19D.15129.21D15C59@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <469DBC20.5050800@iais.fraunhofer.de> Chuck Guzis schrieb: > There's a 1958 NEC 1103 Parametron computer brochure online at > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/NEC/NEC.1103.1958102 > 646285.pdf > > I think it's interesting that the term "sexadecimal" is used. > Apparently, NEC had none of the puritanical qualms of IBM. The > numbering notation seems to be 0123456789DGHJKV. > "Sexadecimal" had been already used with the Illiac before (around 53/54, see bitsavers), with even another scheme for the pseudo tetrades: 0123456789 K S N J F L, related to the 5 bit encoding of characters on a paper tape. I wonder why those obscure encodings evolved that don't assign letters and their encoding values in linear, consecutive order. -- Holger From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Jul 18 02:19:07 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:19:07 +0200 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net>, <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca>, <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> woodelf schrieb: > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> I think I just found their website whilst noodling around. They can >> make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs. > > I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966 > computer. :) > I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. www.farnell.com, a larger distributor, offers them for 15? per piece (11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966... Admittedly, they have prices as in brothels. -- Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 18 05:53:44 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:53:44 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available Message-ID: <0JLD003GZFKHH8M5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 00:04:29 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >> A dial comes from an old phone, check a thrift. > >> The NE-2s are still very available from most decent electronic >> parts suppliers. > >Both are figments of your imgination - none around - thrift stores >or decent electronic parts suppliers . >But I did download the PDF so some day in the far future... I keep forgetting you live in the heart of unobtainium. Out on the fringes things can be found. Allison From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Jul 18 09:33:40 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:33:40 -0400 Subject: Replacement NorthStar Horizon Wooden Case Covers Message-ID: <000001c7c948$a346c160$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, If you are interested in purchasing a replacement wooden case cover for a NorthStar Horizon computer, please contact me. Thank you. Andrew Lynch From iamvirtual at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 20:30:33 2007 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:30:33 -0600 Subject: NEC Spinwriter 5525 available Message-ID: <2645f9870707181830p7ad1aac4x6c49619d9eb85d14@mail.gmail.com> [I hope this is on-topic; I believe the machine is at least 20 years old] I have a NEC Spinwriter 5525 printer that is available for the cost of shipping (free if you pick it up). The printer is a wide carriage and appears to have a RS232 serial interface. I do not know if the printer works or not. The machine is located in Langdon Alberta Canada (postal code is T0J 1X1) which is approximately 10 minutes east of Calgary. The machine is rather heavy. I estimate 50 pounds or more. If there is no interest, the machine is headed to the e-waste recycling. I can send pictures upon request. Contact by e mail: i a m v i rt ihatespam u al @ @ @ g ma il . c om <-- remove spaces and ihatespam Thanks! --barry From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 19 10:31:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:31:09 -0700 Subject: LEO (1950) In-Reply-To: <1778FBA1-D5A3-4EFE-B367-2D938F684FF7@microspot.co.uk> References: <200707180906.l6I952oI032036@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <1778FBA1-D5A3-4EFE-B367-2D938F684FF7@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <469F214D.10058.2B941C5A@cclist.sydex.com> > From: "Rod Smallwood" > I once saw a Univac FAST RAN Drum memory. What a lump!!! I think you mean "FASTRAND"--and probably a FASTRAND II or III. A great hulking movable-head mass storage device that was being used in the Univac line long after the competition had moved to disk. Basically a couple of nickel-plated sewer mains in a fluorescent- lighted box. I wondered if the box would flip over if the bearings on one of the drums suddenly seized up. I encountered one sometime around 1970 on the newly-installed 1108 system at IIT in Chicago. Situated in a converted storefront on Michigan Avenue, truck traffic rumbling by and shaking the old building would cause the FASTRAND to hiccup with errors. Sperry Univac must have offered the college a heckuva deal on the installation. It replaced a S/360-40 setup that turned in years of good performance. I could not imagine an installation going from 8 bit characters on a 32-bit machine to 6 bit characters on a 36 bit system, with lousy drum printer output (instead of a 1403) to boot. Cheers, Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 10:31:33 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:31:33 +0100 Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <469EB433.7060400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> <469EB433.7060400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I have the databook at home somewhere. will look it up and get back to you Dave Caroline On 7/19/07, woodelf wrote: > Does anyone have the datasheets on the AMD 2901 bit slice? > I have the data sheet on the 2901A/2901B/, but it would be nice to have > some timings from the 2901. > Set up time A,B source : TpwL+?ns > Delay time from A,B reg to ~G,~P : ?ns > Delay time from Cn to Cn+4 : ?ns > Thank you even if I get no response. > Ben alias Woodelf. > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 19 10:37:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:37:06 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <96082.23664.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200707172307.l6HN6cYn023494@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <96082.23664.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <469F22B2.9808.2B998F86@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jul 2007 at 11:53, William Blair wrote: > I can't find the beginning of this thread and I see no links to a scanned magazine article in any > reply to the original post. Can someone please give me the link to this scan if one was offered? http://www.dvq.com/info/neon_bulb_computer_ei_11_66.pdf From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jul 19 11:06:58 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:06:58 -0500 Subject: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available] In-Reply-To: References: <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070719110544.06fdcc28@mail> At 10:59 AM 7/18/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I have had that specific problem with RCA 1861 "Pixie" graphics - I >can get viewable images on 1970s-era CRTs and TVs with no problem, but >I could not, for example, get a stable picture with an Apple 5" CRT >(used with the Apple IIc line), or a DEC VR201 (+12VDC/RS170 mono >monitor for Rainbow, DECmate, Professional, etc.) nor any sort of >recently-manufactured TV or LCD. Depending on the exact output device >in question, either I see pixels but can't get a frame to properly >lock, or I don't see anything at all. Mono video isn't too hard to decipher on a 'scope. I would guess there's a half dozen ways to mis-conform, as well as a half-dozen ways that older TVs did not reject out-of-spec signals. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 11:17:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:17:03 -0500 Subject: VGA Capture In-Reply-To: <1184814077.16117.13.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> <1184814077.16117.13.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: On 7/18/07, Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 08:08 -0500, John Foust wrote: > > I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other day.. > > ...Press a button, capture the image as a bitmap for me. > > This sounds like a VGA version of the Snappy, a device by Play, > which captures stills from composite video, and connects to a PC via a > bi-directional parallel port. I used a Snappy about 10 years ago... I recall it worked well. > Those can be had for about $13, since > Play folded. I have one, and have found it useful. Handy to know. I didn't realize they were so cheap now. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 11:39:45 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:39:45 -0500 Subject: Ebuyer.com runs on a Commodore 64! In-Reply-To: <20642BDB-0113-1000-8BBB-4D52CA6D445B-Webmail-10007@mac.com> References: <200707180906.l6I952oD032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20642BDB-0113-1000-8BBB-4D52CA6D445B-Webmail-10007@mac.com> Message-ID: On 7/19/07, David Greelish wrote: > Has anyone else read this short tech news piece? Wow, how do they do that? > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/07/ebuyer_runs_site_on_commodore64/ Presumably by tweaking the string inside Apache that self-reports the platform. In 1995-1996, I ran a webserver on my Amiga, but there's plenty of memory, a network interface, a decent C environment, etc., available to AmigaDOS. It's not impossible to run a webserver on a C-64 (it's been done several times already), but I'd say that you aren't likely to be running _Apache_ on an 8-bit 1980s micro, even if you do slap on a couple megs of peripheral RAM and an Ethernet interface (or use SLIP/PPP). -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 11:41:33 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:41:33 -0400 Subject: Ebuyer.com runs on a Commodore 64! In-Reply-To: <20642BDB-0113-1000-8BBB-4D52CA6D445B-Webmail-10007@mac.com> References: <200707180906.l6I952oD032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20642BDB-0113-1000-8BBB-4D52CA6D445B-Webmail-10007@mac.com> Message-ID: <469F943D.8000108@gmail.com> David Greelish wrote: > Has anyone else read this short tech news piece? Wow, how do they do that? > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/07/ebuyer_runs_site_on_commodore64/ How do they do it? They hack their Apache to show a fake identifier. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jul 19 11:40:06 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:40:06 -0500 Subject: VGA Capture In-Reply-To: <1184814077.16117.13.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> <1184814077.16117.13.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070719113643.06c69d00@mail> At 10:01 PM 7/18/2007, Warren Wolfe wrote: > This sounds like a VGA version of the Snappy, a device by Play, >which captures stills from composite video, and connects to a PC via a >bi-directional parallel port. Yes, I'm quite familiar with the Snappy and I own several, having once been well-connected with NewTek and Play. Of course, if pixel-perfect accuracy isn't required, a digital camera might do the trick, except for random sync bars. I would think someone must've made a device like this for the documentation industry. There are moments when software-based screen capture tricks don't cut it. I have a few video printers that accept composite and print on thermal paper. - John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 19 11:47:36 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:47:36 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available References: <96082.23664.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <469F95A8.ED4E1DC1@cs.ubc.ca> William Blair wrote: > > I can't find the beginning of this thread and I see no links to a scanned magazine article in any > reply to the original post. Can someone please give me the link to this scan if one was offered? --> Bob Rosenbloom wrote (Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:54:49 -0700): (From: Bob Rosenbloom ) > > Bob Bradlee wrote: > > Seen on ebay this morning ..... Item number: 270146028394 > > > > 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer, Nixie Tube Era > > Uses NE-2 Decade Counters & a Telephone Dial for Input! > > > > $20 with shipping may be a bit much but it sounds like a fun project .... > > I have a scan of this article up on my site at: > > http://www.dvq.com/info/neon_bulb_computer_ei_11_66.pdf > > It relies on matching the neon bulbs. From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jul 19 11:56:34 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:56:34 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707190956j6ef496c9k1170ce2a49ccdd8d@mail.gmail.com> On 18/07/07, Holger Veit wrote: > > I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. > www.farnell.com, a larger distributor, offers them for 15? per piece > (11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will > probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966... > > Admittedly, they have prices as in brothels. > lol. Not sure if these are ne-2, but Rapid have neons at 12p each ($0.24) or 3.4p ($0.07) each for 1000+ and they give some tech info on them too. http://www.rapidonline.com/searchresults.aspx?style=0&kw=42-0300 That should be cheap enough.. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 12:28:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:28:33 -0500 Subject: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available] In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070719110544.06fdcc28@mail> References: <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469D1FEE.12211.23BEC5B2@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070718074857.066aeda0@mail> <6.2.3.4.2.20070719110544.06fdcc28@mail> Message-ID: On 7/19/07, John Foust wrote: > Mono video isn't too hard to decipher on a 'scope. I would guess > there's a half dozen ways to mis-conform, as well as a half-dozen > ways that older TVs did not reject out-of-spec signals. I have some nice, sharp photographs of a scope showing Pixie output. I could probably put that up somewhere for folks to look at. -ethan From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 19 12:34:27 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <200707191707.l6JH6huo006618@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <521549.67388.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Does anyone have the datasheets on the AMD 2901 bit slice? > I have the data sheet on the 2901A/2901B/, but it would be nice to have > some timings from the 2901. Although I haven't looked, I suspect that its would be in the 33MB PDF 1979-AMD2900.pdf found here: http://www.electronballet.com/Databooks/ It's the AM2900 Family Databook. Best, Bill ------------------------ ?Shoot THE DUCK! Shoot THE DUCK!? - Bugs Bunny ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jul 19 13:11:30 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:11:30 -0600 Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <521549.67388.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <521549.67388.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <469FA952.4050403@e-bbes.com> William Blair wrote: >> Does anyone have the datasheets on the AMD 2901 bit slice? >> I have the data sheet on the 2901A/2901B/, but it would be nice to have >> some timings from the 2901. > > Although I haven't looked, I suspect that its would be in the 33MB PDF 1979-AMD2900.pdf found > here: > > http://www.electronballet.com/Databooks/ > > It's the AM2900 Family Databook. I have a paper copy here, and it just says "perfomance (of the 2901b) exceeds the of 2901a and 2901". No numbers :( So, you have to dig further back in history than that ;-) From gklinger at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 13:17:14 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:17:14 -0400 Subject: Ebuyer.com runs on a Commodore 64! In-Reply-To: <469F943D.8000108@gmail.com> References: <200707180906.l6I952oD032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20642BDB-0113-1000-8BBB-4D52CA6D445B-Webmail-10007@mac.com> <469F943D.8000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How do they do it? They hack their Apache to show a fake identifier. That's exactly what they've done. If you want to experience an actual Commodore 64 being used as a web server, check out: http://www.c64web.com/ -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Jul 19 13:26:03 2007 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:26:03 +0200 Subject: Ebuyer.com runs on a Commodore 64! In-Reply-To: <20642BDB-0113-1000-8BBB-4D52CA6D445B-Webmail-10007@mac.com> References: <200707180906.l6I952oD032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20642BDB-0113-1000-8BBB-4D52CA6D445B-Webmail-10007@mac.com> Message-ID: <20070719182603.GA26036@thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 05:53:08AM -0700, David Greelish wrote: > Has anyone else read this short tech news piece? Wow, how do they do that? > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/07/ebuyer_runs_site_on_commodore64/ Thats easy, the just set up their Apache to show a "slightly modified" version string, thats all. A few years ago I had my local squid cache set up so it would replace the UserAgent string in HTTP requests proxied through it with something like 'TerminalWeb 1.5; Multics; 36 bits' - it was very interesting to see which poorly created web sites this broke (because they relied on the UserAgent string to show you browser specific content). Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 19 13:43:40 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:43:40 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net>, <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca>, <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <469FB0DC.8000905@jetnet.ab.ca> Holger Veit wrote: > Admittedly, they have prices as in brothels. How would one know, Brothels(1) don't realy adverize that often. :) Oddly most of the projects I have built seem to cost about the same amount as the original product in terms of monetary value. (1).Tip - Bring your own condom if sounds too good to be true. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 13:56:44 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:56:44 -0400 Subject: Ebuyer.com runs on a Commodore 64! In-Reply-To: <20070719182603.GA26036@thangorodrim.de> References: <200707180906.l6I952oD032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20642BDB-0113-1000-8BBB-4D52CA6D445B-Webmail-10007@mac.com> <20070719182603.GA26036@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <469FB3EC.2010702@gmail.com> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 05:53:08AM -0700, David Greelish wrote: >> Has anyone else read this short tech news piece? Wow, how do they do that? >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/07/ebuyer_runs_site_on_commodore64/ > > Thats easy, the just set up their Apache to show a "slightly modified" > version string, thats all. > > A few years ago I had my local squid cache set up so it would replace > the UserAgent string in HTTP requests proxied through it with something > like 'TerminalWeb 1.5; Multics; 36 bits' - it was very interesting to > see which poorly created web sites this broke (because they relied on > the UserAgent string to show you browser specific content). I did something similar to make my Mozilla Seamonkey appear to be Internet Explorer. It's amazing how many lazy web developers create web pages that reject non-IE browsers, but when tested, their sites work fine with Mozilla. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 13:57:18 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:57:18 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469FB0DC.8000905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net>, <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca>, <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> <469FB0DC.8000905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469FB40E.3010104@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: >> Admittedly, they have prices as in brothels. > How would one know, Brothels(1) don't realy adverize > that often. :) What are you talking about? I see ads for brothels all the time. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 19 13:59:51 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:59:51 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <0JLD003GZFKHH8M5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JLD003GZFKHH8M5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <469FB4A7.2060006@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > I keep forgetting you live in the heart of unobtainium. Out on the > fringes things can be found. Well I can find them, but at $30+ for a mail order to any places that will take a Canadian Money Order I tend not order $2 parts. Right now I am saving for a real computer design that I expect will cost me about $750 for the PCB's and $500 for the parts. And who knows what (using windows) to get schematic & pcb capture software will cost ~ 30 TTL (16 pin) chips per PCB - 500 pins 8 x 10 board? > Allison PS. It is very hard to $ from Canada to Australa as where all the low cost <$500 PCB programs are. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 14:05:21 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <1184742742.6122.9.camel@elric> References: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> <20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <1184742742.6122.9.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20070719120053.D22834@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Hugely off-topic, but it's funny you should mention that... I just > handle-started something for the first time in about four years - my > mate's Landrover Series 3 had just about enough in the battery for the > ignition, but not the starter. Many VW type 3's endured monstrous unnecessary "repairs" involving replacing the processor, due to misdiagnosis of situations where they would crank, but voltage fell below the required threshold. A classmate of mine got a 3 year old one for $200 due to a bad cell in the battery. > There's a knack to it... The death of Byron Carter is widely accepted as being the inspiration for Kettering's development of the starter motor From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 19 14:07:10 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:07:10 -0600 Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <521549.67388.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <521549.67388.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <469FB65E.90606@jetnet.ab.ca> William Blair wrote: > ?Shoot THE DUCK! Shoot THE DUCK!? - Bugs Bunny "Wabbit Season" -- Elmer Fudd I belive I downloaded the same data book from bit savers. Thanks. From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Jul 19 14:10:05 2007 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:10:05 -0400 Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <469FA952.4050403@e-bbes.com> References: <521549.67388.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <469FA952.4050403@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <469FB70D.1060104@splab.cas.neu.edu> The 1979 book says the 2901 came out in 1976, so you have a few years to go back. It also states that the A,B -> G\,P\ time is 80 ns for the 2901 e.stiebler wrote: > > William Blair wrote: > >>> Does anyone have the datasheets on the AMD 2901 bit slice? >>> I have the data sheet on the 2901A/2901B/, but it would be nice to have >>> some timings from the 2901. >> >> >> Although I haven't looked, I suspect that its would be in the 33MB PDF >> 1979-AMD2900.pdf found >> here: >> >> http://www.electronballet.com/Databooks/ >> >> It's the AM2900 Family Databook. > > > I have a paper copy here, and it just says "perfomance (of the 2901b) > exceeds the of 2901a and 2901". No numbers :( > So, you have to dig further back in history than that ;-) > From dgreelish at mac.com Thu Jul 19 14:29:02 2007 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:29:02 -0700 Subject: Looking for old Computer Shoppers . . . In-Reply-To: <200707180906.l6I952oD032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707180906.l6I952oD032036@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for copies of Computer Shopper from the year 1992 (late '91 - early '93). Anybody have some copies laying around the house? You know, when they were really thick and big? Since I'm requesting, I'm also looking for some missing issues of INFO=64 magazine . . . anyone? Thanks for your help. Best, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 19 10:20:19 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:20:19 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available Message-ID: <0JLF00104MKC08U6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:54:18 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> I'll make this vintage computer-oriented. How many people still own >> a working dishwasher/clothes washer with an integral computer that >> was manufactured over 10 years ago? When I first saw a dishwasher Maytag washer dryer pair, still in use and working fine. >> with computerized control, my reaction was "What a damned fool thing >> to do--put a computer in the absolutely worst (hot water, caustics, >> steam) environment possible. Now you can't buy them any other way. Automotive is considerably worse. Hot, humid, large temperature changes, power system that runs from 6V worst case to 18V with transients higher and it must work for 5years to be considered passably reliable. >You can see the manufacturer's point. A custom chip is a lot cheaper to >make than a cam-and-contacts timer. They can put the magic words cam and contacts have a well known failure mech, wear. Solution build it more robust, the counter to that is cost. >'computer', 'microprocessor',. 'digital', etc on the panel. And it's >harder to repair if it fails (if a mechanical timer fails, you can fix >it, if the microprocessor fails, you have to buy a new PCB from the >manufacturers, if they don't want to sell you one, you're stuffed). Most vendors want their product to work because if it doesn't there are plenty of competitors with something to offer. Allison From mike.hatch at mclennan.co.uk Thu Jul 19 10:57:02 2007 From: mike.hatch at mclennan.co.uk (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:57:02 +0100 Subject: Unknown Acorn Scematic Message-ID: <000301c7ca1d$73b347e0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> Whilst going through some old schematics I found one for an Acorn, although it does not say which type, beleive it my be a BBC Model B, could be wrong. Its here if needed - http://www.brickfieldspark.org/temp/acorninfo.htm Mike (Aka TerrapinDundee) From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Jul 19 13:47:30 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:47:30 +0100 Subject: LEO (1950) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D390230CD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Amongst other references I found this In 1951 the LEO I computer was operational and ran the world's first regular routine office computer job. About the "Lyons Electronic Office" (LEO I) The LEO I used 5,936 valves, plus another 300-400 in auxiliary equipment. The LEO used 64 mercury tubes for storage (twice the memory capacity of the EDSAC machine built in Cambridge). Each memory tube was 5 feet, four inches in length and weighed half a ton. The computer was controlled from a control panel, with several oscilloscopes set up to monitor contents of the storage area. The machine also had a speaker installed and programmers could hear the sounds generated as LEO performed certain calculations. The programmers became so accustomed to certain frequency variations, that they could detect something was wrong with a program by the sounds produced through the speaker. The programmers also used this speaker arrangement to generate some of the first "computer music." Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 18 July 2007 14:24 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: LEO (1950) > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:43:50 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > I happened on the program by chance. It might have been called > Disappearing Britain. A lot of it was contemporaneous and could have > been a Lyons publicity film. (or at least bits of one). I suspect our > friends at the National Film Archive might know. I suspect it is a contemporary promotional film on the Leo II dated 1957 and mentions that it has been working since 1953 - referring to Leo 1 I think, it is black and white and if that's it, I have it on a DVD published by Buzz KnowledgeWorks which I bought on eBay. > > I inadvertently made an ambiguous statement. By commercial I meant its > use, not its availability for sale. I knew what you meant. Most early designs were one or two off scientific machines, price no object. > Where would you start to design such a thing? Valves yes.. 12AT7 > Bistables as binary counters. Neon devices such as dekatrons as > decimal counters. RVL (Resistor Valve Logic). Storage = Ferrite Cores, > Tape, Drum possibly. I'm not sure many commercial machines were made with valves logic and a main memory of core. Transistors and core main memory often came in together. The ICT1200 series (AKA Hollerrith Electronic Computer) was drum main memory and valves but its replacement the ICT1300 series used "high speed switching transistors" and core memory with backing store of drum and optionally tape. > I once saw a Univac FAST RAN Drum memory. What a lump!!! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 19 14:51:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:51:14 -0500 Subject: Unknown Acorn Scematic In-Reply-To: <000301c7ca1d$73b347e0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> References: <000301c7ca1d$73b347e0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> Message-ID: <469FC0B2.3020700@yahoo.co.uk> Mike Hatch wrote: > Whilst going through some old schematics I found one for an Acorn, > although it does not say which type, beleive it my be a BBC Model B Yeah, looks to be nowt more exciting than a model B (without checking against mine) I'm afraid. Related note - I don't suppose anyone happens to have schematics for any of the Cube Eurobeeb boards do they? I'd like to revive one of the systems at some point, but most of the boards that I have are in a pretty sorry state after being found in someone's damp garage... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 19 14:58:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:58:11 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 32, Message 1, LEO (1950) NGTE In-Reply-To: <007101c7c9da$bd4afc10$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> References: <200707181701.l6IH12SZ036254@dewey.classiccmp.org> <007101c7c9da$bd4afc10$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> Message-ID: <469FC253.2060602@yahoo.co.uk> Mike Hatch wrote: > NGTE as a site is sitll there in its entirity, Google for it and you > will find lots of Urban Exploration groups listing NGTE. > The site is still partially used, the computer suite is one of the > buildings you cannot get into so some of the mainframes - might - just > still be there, but who to contact ? to find out. Indeed - there seem to be lots of exploration sites covering it, but very little info out there in terms of the operational side - if I could find a contact there then I'd give them a prod just to see what they still have. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 19 17:28:43 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:28:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <101206.98605.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Jason T wrote: > Yep, I had a good time as well (even if I didn't > look like it all the > time.) It was great to meet people from the list > as well as share a > bit of our collections with the general public. > Dinner was a fine > idea and tasty to boot; I'm glad almost > everyone attended. Here are > the pictures I took. There ought to be some > better quality ones out > there, as I saw a few people with real > cameras as well: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/VCFMidwest2007 > > -j Nice pics. My favourtite is 2nd one up from bottom on the left. It has the Nintendo robot (ROB) in it :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 19 19:06:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:06:01 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <0JLF00104MKC08U6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JLF00104MKC08U6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <469F99F9.26796.2D6B7A00@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2007 at 11:20, Allison wrote: > Most vendors want their product to work because if it doesn't there > are plenty of competitors with something to offer. That would be great if it were borne out in practice--i.e. there really was competition for the most reliable product. In fact, most of the smaller parts are commodities, produced by a third party firm that probably holds a major market share. Much the same situation obtains in the automotive market; how many makes does NipponDenso supply controls for? Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Jul 19 23:44:49 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:44:49 -0600 Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46A03DC1.1010709@brutman.com> Thanks for all of the help folks ... As it happens, right after I started getting responses to my query on the capacitor my email service went bonkers. The virtual host somewhere out in cyberspace where my email is processed had a non-virtual hardware problem, thus impacting my ability to read and reply. Things seem to be back to normal now. If anybody is interested I have a fairly good pinout for an ISA bus adapter for a PCjr. A friend of mine and I collaborated on a version in 2003 that 'almost' worked for me, and I wasted a lot of time trying to figure out what the problem was. Recently I decided to revisit it and after the last two days I figured out that even though the capacitors are probably nice, the thing that was holding me back was the lack of an OSC signal from the Jr. The cards that I was using (SCSI cards) were dependent on it, and we left that pin on the ISA slots not connected because we didn't have that signal available. An NE1000 Ethernet card (which does not use OSC) is working fine on the system so the adapter we designed is 'close enough' even with the capacitors. (The adapter with the capacitors where the picture came from was a commercially available adapter that I was reverse engineering to try to find out what the problem with our homebrew adapter was.) Thanks again, Mike From technobug at comcast.net Fri Jul 20 00:42:34 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:42:34 -0700 Subject: Classic Operating Systems Book In-Reply-To: <200707171708.l6HH8EYh017742@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707171708.l6HH8EYh017742@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5C620A87-A14E-4EEF-909F-C74F99AD04DA@comcast.net> If you have $20 to spare, Edward Hamilton Booksellers has an interesting volume: item 612139X, Classic Operating Sytems: From Batch Processing to Distribute Systems. You can read a more complete description at (listed at $74.95). CRC From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jul 20 01:05:53 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 02:05:53 -0400 Subject: NEC Spinwriter 5525 available In-Reply-To: <2645f9870707181830p7ad1aac4x6c49619d9eb85d14@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870707181830p7ad1aac4x6c49619d9eb85d14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707200205.55107.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 18 July 2007 21:30, B M wrote: > [I hope this is on-topic; I believe the machine is at least 20 years old] > > I have a NEC Spinwriter 5525 printer that is available for the cost of > shipping (free if you pick it up). The printer is a wide carriage and > appears to have a RS232 serial interface. I do not know if the > printer works or not. > > The machine is located in Langdon Alberta Canada (postal code is T0J > 1X1) which is approximately 10 minutes east of Calgary. > > The machine is rather heavy. I estimate 50 pounds or more. If there > is no interest, the machine is headed to the e-waste recycling. > > I can send pictures upon request. > > Contact by e mail: > i a m v i rt ihatespam u al @ @ @ g ma il . c om <-- remove > spaces and ihatespam > > Thanks! > > --barry Funny you should mention that, as I have one of those too, though I'm not sure of the model number. Also serial interface. And there's a daisywheel printer with it, as well. I've not had anybody express *any* interest in either of these for some years now. Both are probably going to be scrapped out, at some point in time, for whatever I can get out of them, unless I hear of someone interested before that happens... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jul 19 16:47:48 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:47:48 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <0JLF00104MKC08U6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JLF00104MKC08U6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1184881668.16602.1.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 11:20 -0400, Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:54:18 +0100 (BST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> > >> I'll make this vintage computer-oriented. How many people still own > >> a working dishwasher/clothes washer with an integral computer that > >> was manufactured over 10 years ago? When I first saw a dishwasher > > Maytag washer dryer pair, still in use and working fine. > > >> with computerized control, my reaction was "What a damned fool thing > >> to do--put a computer in the absolutely worst (hot water, caustics, > >> steam) environment possible. Now you can't buy them any other way. Also, have you ever tried to buy a replacement cam switch controller, never mind replace one? I did get good at repairing Bendix motor controller PCBs though. If it wasn't the triac (50p) it was the phase controller chip (two quid). Far better than ?150 for a new board... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jul 19 18:06:55 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:06:55 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> , <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> , <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <1184886415.16602.3.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 09:19 +0200, Holger Veit wrote: > woodelf schrieb: > > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > >> I think I just found their website whilst noodling around. They can > >> make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs. > > > > I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966 > > computer. :) > > I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. > www.farnell.com, a larger distributor, offers them for 15? per piece > (11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will > probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966... That can't be right, 15EUR for a single neon bulb? Gordon From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jul 20 01:26:20 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 02:26:20 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <1184886415.16602.3.camel@elric> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> <1184886415.16602.3.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200707200226.20712.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 19 July 2007 19:06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 09:19 +0200, Holger Veit wrote: > > woodelf schrieb: > > > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > >> I think I just found their website whilst noodling around. They can > > >> make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs. > > > > > > I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966 > > > computer. :) > > > I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. > > > > www.farnell.com, a larger distributor, offers them for 15? per piece > > (11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will > > probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966... > > That can't be right, 15EUR for a single neon bulb? > > Gordon Try pricing some of the other numbers some time... I had a reel-to-reel tape deck years ago that had a couple of NE45 bulbs in it for level indicators. Nifty looking electrodes in that bulb, but the price? Yikes! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From grant at stockly.com Fri Jul 20 02:09:56 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:09:56 -0800 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <0JLF00104MKC08U6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> At 07:20 AM 7/19/2007, you wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:54:18 +0100 (BST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> > >> I'll make this vintage computer-oriented. How many people still own > >> a working dishwasher/clothes washer with an integral computer that > >> was manufactured over 10 years ago? When I first saw a dishwasher > >Maytag washer dryer pair, still in use and working fine. > > >> with computerized control, my reaction was "What a damned fool thing > >> to do--put a computer in the absolutely worst (hot water, caustics, > >> steam) environment possible. Now you can't buy them any other way. > >Automotive is considerably worse. Hot, humid, large temperature changes, >power system that runs from 6V worst case to 18V with transients higher >and it must work for 5years to be considered passably reliable. I watched some show highlighting junk vehicles from cuba/venezuela/etc. The narrator seemed amazed that they were on the road. Most of them looked better than half of my cars and wouldn't turn a single head in the valley (Alaska). ; ) As far as electronics go...my parents own a 4 plex. There is a crawl space under some stairs that a lady used. She moved out and didn't want any of the stuff. The crawl space filled up with water and froze. I literally thawed an Apple IIe, disk drive, and monitor out of a block of ice. Once dry it worked fine. It is still operating today. A while back I hated newer cars because of all the controls and computers. But after buying a service manual it isn't that bad. If you want to know and fix everything, take a look at http://www.megasquirt.info/ Grant From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jul 20 02:11:07 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 08:11:07 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <1184886415.16602.3.camel@elric> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> , <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> , <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> <1184886415.16602.3.camel@elric> Message-ID: <46A0600B.6060800@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/07/2007 00:06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 09:19 +0200, Holger Veit wrote: >> woodelf schrieb: >>> Peter C. Wallace wrote: >>> >>>> I think I just found their website whilst noodling around. They can >>>> make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs. >>> I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966 >>> computer. :) >>> I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. >> www.farnell.com, a larger distributor, offers them for 15? per piece >> (11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will >> probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966... > > That can't be right, 15EUR for a single neon bulb? ?6.15, it tells me on the website -- but it also says it is no longer stocked, and it was old Newark stock held in the US. If you look for other neons on the Farnell websites, especially T2 size (which is what that part was) they vary in price from 9 pence (?0.09) to about 40 pence each. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From steve at radiorobots.com Fri Jul 20 08:55:29 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:55:29 -0400 Subject: Classic Operating Systems Book In-Reply-To: <5C620A87-A14E-4EEF-909F-C74F99AD04DA@comcast.net> References: <200707171708.l6HH8EYh017742@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5C620A87-A14E-4EEF-909F-C74F99AD04DA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46A0BED1.1040608@radiorobots.com> CRC wrote: > If you have $20 to spare, Edward Hamilton Booksellers www.hamiltonbook.com> has an interesting volume: item 612139X, > Classic Operating Sytems: From Batch Processing to Distribute > Systems. You can read a more complete description at www.springer.com/west/home/generic/search/results? > SGWID=4-40109-22-2182421-0> (listed at $74.95). > > CRC Thanks for point; got one. Steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 09:42:51 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:42:51 -0500 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A0600B.6060800@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> <1184886415.16602.3.camel@elric> <46A0600B.6060800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > ?6.15, it tells me on the website -- but it also says it is no longer > stocked, and it was old Newark stock held in the US. If you look for > other neons on the Farnell websites, especially T2 size (which is what > that part was) they vary in price from 9 pence (?0.09) to about 40 pence > each. So what was it about that _particular_ part that resulted in a ?6 price? I've seen inventory creep on DEC parts that were old at the time - case in point - the left and right tape guides for the TU56 DECtape transport were listed as spares at many times what might be expected as a reasonable price for a componentless hunk of polished metal. When I asked about it, I was told that they probably hadn't sold any in years, but they were still on the book and most likely still taking up shelf space in the warehouse. Every year, I was told, they'd inventory them, then review the price, which trended upwards by some magic formula to fold in inflation and some fraction of the cost of the warehouse for "storage" of the parts. After ten years of this, the price was absurd (don't recall exact amounts), but there it was. Could this be a similar case? A particular part number in their database that gets annually reevaluated until it's nearly two orders of magnitude higher than equivalent parts? -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jul 20 10:06:01 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:06:01 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <200707171525.l6HFP67Y093929@keith.ezwind.net> <469D08F1.8000803@jetnet.ab.ca> <8428A3E7-45AA-472C-9EA9-AA643DD51ED2@neurotica.com> <469CE2ED.13222.22D07CC7@cclist.sydex.com> <469DAA1E.5070100@jetnet.ab.ca> <469DBEEB.8060703@iais.fraunhofer.de> <1184886415.16602.3.camel@elric> <46A0600B.6060800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46A0CF59.7050905@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/07/2007 15:42, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So what was it about that _particular_ part that resulted in a ?6 > price? I've seen inventory creep on DEC parts that were old at the > time > Could this be a similar case? A particular part number in their > database that gets annually reevaluated until it's nearly two orders > of magnitude higher than equivalent parts? I wouldn't be surprised, but I've no way of knowing. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 10:54:33 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:54:33 +0100 Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <469FB70D.1060104@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <521549.67388.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <469FA952.4050403@e-bbes.com> <469FB70D.1060104@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: joe heck's databook trumps mine at 1981 Dave Caroline From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 20 11:02:40 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <200707201450.l6KEnJX3018831@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <984318.7171.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Just as an off-topic diversion from a subject that I don't think is actually off-topic, here are a number of die photos including some from the AMD 29xx and 29xxx series and others: http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ ------------------------ "The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. -- Eric Blair (aka George Orwell), "1984" ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Jul 20 11:55:59 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:55:59 -0400 Subject: 3rd source 6809??? (Was: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <984318.7171.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200707201450.l6KEnJX3018831@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070720125014.040e6230@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that William Blair may have mentioned these words: >Just as an off-topic diversion from a subject that I don't think is >actually off-topic, here are a >number of die photos including some from the AMD 29xx and 29xxx series and >others: > >http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ Kewl. As I scroll thru the list, drooling over the sweet pictures... I come across a chip called: Atmel EF6809CV CPU I never knew Atmel also sourced the 6809... I wonder if they used any of that IP for future processors... and if they could be talked into making more! ;-) [[ A guy can dream, can't he??? ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jul 20 15:04:24 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 13:04:24 -0700 Subject: 2901 OT References: <984318.7171.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46A11548.2515C59E@cs.ubc.ca> William Blair wrote: > > Just as an off-topic diversion from a subject that I don't think is actually off-topic, here are a > number of die photos including some from the AMD 29xx and 29xxx series and others: > > http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ ..no need to consider it off-topic, a lot of the photos in there are of old chips, including an 8080 and 1802. One of the links on that page, http://www.cacs.louisiana.edu/~mgr/404/burks/pcinfo/hardware/cpu.htm, presents an interesting overview of microprocs from 70/80/90's, both well-known and lesser-known ones, far more than just a timeline. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 20 15:06:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:06:34 -0600 Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <984318.7171.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <984318.7171.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46A115CA.2010704@jetnet.ab.ca> William Blair wrote: > Just as an off-topic diversion from a subject that I don't think is actually off-topic, here are a > number of die photos including some from the AMD 29xx and 29xxx series and others: > > http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ All my 2901's will have a die, some plastic and 40 little bug legs... -------- Stomp that bug !!! Give TTL a good death. :) -------- They even show the die in the data books getting smaller and faster. Ben alias woodelf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 20 15:09:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:09:52 -0600 Subject: 3rd source 6809??? (Was: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070720125014.040e6230@mail.30below.com> References: <200707201450.l6KEnJX3018831@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070720125014.040e6230@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <46A11690.5010906@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Atmel EF6809CV CPU > > I never knew Atmel also sourced the 6809... I wonder if they used any of > that IP for future processors... and if they could be talked into making > more! ;-) You want the 6309 a better 6809 clone. I think that is the number. It was claimed buggy but that was it was because un-used 6809 opcodes where used in software that was defined in the 6309. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 20 17:10:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:10:58 -0600 Subject: Teletype Model 40 tape unit Message-ID: Ebay # 190133198900 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 20 18:12:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:12:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <1184881668.16602.1.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jul 19, 7 10:47:48 pm Message-ID: > Also, have you ever tried to buy a replacement cam switch controller, > never mind replace one? It's listed in the spare parts lists for the washing machine/dishwasher, so I assume it's no harder to get than any other (oriignal) spare. I've never replaced one, as I've always managed to repair them using contacts raided from power relays, odd bits of metal, and in one case a new motor (which are pretty generic, actually. In all cases I had to remove the timer from the washing machine, it was just a matter of a few screws and a lot ow wires iwth faston (Lucar Spade) terminals. Either keep a note of what goes where, or refer to the wiring diagam... In cany case, obtaining and replacing an electronic timer/controller is no easier. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 20 18:16:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:16:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help identifying a capacitor In-Reply-To: <46A03DC1.1010709@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Jul 19, 7 10:44:49 pm Message-ID: > A friend of mine and I collaborated on a version in 2003 that 'almost' > worked for me, and I wasted a lot of time trying to figure out what the > problem was. Recently I decided to revisit it and after the last two > days I figured out that even though the capacitors are probably nice, > the thing that was holding me back was the lack of an OSC signal from The OSC signal was the 14.3xxx MHz master clcok signal in the PC and XT. IBM specifically state in the Techref that it has no gauranteed pahse relationship to any other signal. In the expansion unit, it's provided by an oscillator circuit on the expansion backplane, in the PC/AT, it's provided by a separate oscialltoer circuit (i.e. not in any way associated with the CPU/system clock) on the motherboard. It was used, of course, by the CGA card as the master clock for the video and colour cubcarrier timing. Some other cards used it, often divided down, as a master clock. > the Jr. The cards that I was using (SCSI cards) were dependent on it, > and we left that pin on the ISA slots not connected because we didn't > have that signal available. An NE1000 Ethernet card (which does not use I think I'd jsut ass one of those 4-pin oscillator cans and be done with it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 20 18:23:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:23:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> from "Grant Stockly" at Jul 19, 7 11:09:56 pm Message-ID: > A while back I hated newer cars because of all the controls and > computers. But after buying a service manual it isn't that bad. If you > want to know and fix everything, take a look at http://www.megasquirt.info/ Hmmm.. I have the workshop manual for my father's new car -- all 11 volumes of it. Said car has about 10 'ECUs' (Electornic control units) interconnected by a pair of CAN buses. Yes, I can follow the manual. I can plug the diagnotic tester into the socket under the dashboard, see what it says is wrong. Then follow the proceure in the book -- check the resistance between point A and point B, check the voltage on this pin, and so on to see if it's the sensor (more likely) or the ECU input at fault. And I can change the appropriate bit. But I don't really understnad just what is going on in the same way that I understoof the old distributor, carburettor and automatic gearbox valve block. And I can't really repair the units, they are full of custom and house-marked components. Now can I do this sort of thing at the roadside if said car breaks down. I could trace faults in the older systems using little more than a brain and a test lamp (which if I didn't have, I'd 'borrow' from a dashboard warning lamp or similar).And even if I could find the fault, I have a lot mroe chance of 'bodging' an older car than this thing... -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jul 20 19:02:14 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:02:14 +0100 Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) References: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk><20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469DCEEE.4000407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <003401c7cb2a$682ec8f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > The one next to me here is a rotary (1967 I think, a GPO 706) - when >I get time it'll be replaced by my 1940's one (a 162).... Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know where I could find a schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model rather than the rotary dial model). One of mine got "zapped" during a thunderstorm and now crackles very quietly instead of "chirping" when it rings.... :-( TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 20 19:14:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:14:15 -0700 Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) In-Reply-To: <003401c7cb2a$682ec8f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: , <003401c7cb2a$682ec8f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46A0ED67.12572.22386DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jul 2007 at 1:02, Ensor wrote: > Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know where I could find a > schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model > rather than the rotary dial model). "Trimline?" Hmmm, mine's later than 1970--probably 1980-ish and it's got a standard bell ringer in it. So there must be several different versions. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jul 20 19:17:54 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:17:54 +0100 Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor References: <764153.53485.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004501c7cb2c$95c195c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Was there a "Serie" available in the UK? If I'm >talking gibberish, the Vicki is the portable version >of the Victor 9000. I've heard of the "Vicki", but not the "Serie". In fact I'm pretty sure I remember seeing adverts for the Vicki in several of the UK computer mags back then ("BYTE" was about the only US computer magazine I could easily lay my hands on in those days; aside from "ANALOG" and "ANTIC" of course). > Very very hard to find. You're not kidding there, in all the time I've been collecting I've never seen a single one "in the wild". About the nearest I've come to one was an advert in "Microcomputer Mart" some 17 years ago, back in the days before it became just another PC oriented rag. TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 20 19:18:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:18:06 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> from "Grant Stockly" at Jul 19, 7 11:09:56 pm, Message-ID: <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> Regardless of what the automotive people say about repairability, I submit that modern television receivers aren't made to be repairable. If it were otherwise, you'd be able to find people who repair them for a living. To be sure, some of the problems described on the giveaway sets sound fairly simple--e.g. picture and sound suddenly disappear. But even so, sets less than a year old seem to end up in the waste stream. Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 19:26:56 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:26:56 -0500 Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) In-Reply-To: <46A0ED67.12572.22386DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003401c7cb2a$682ec8f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46A0ED67.12572.22386DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707201726n75cf7a81g7b78adb70c5d766e@mail.gmail.com> On 7/20/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Jul 2007 at 1:02, Ensor wrote: > > > Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know where I could find a > > schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model > > rather than the rotary dial model). > > "Trimline?" Hmmm, mine's later than 1970--probably 1980-ish and it's > got a standard bell ringer in it. So there must be several different > versions. I thought Trimline at first, but I see Pete's in the UK. Was there a "Trimphone" model over there? I know my Trimline never "chirps," it RINGS! This site: http://telephonecollectors.org/library has docs for many of the older phones out there, though apparently not the Trimline. If that is indeed what Pete has, I may have the schematics in my pile of Bell BSP books. Let me know if you want me to look for them. j From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 19:28:07 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:28:07 -0500 Subject: Need docs for Burroughs term In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730707101847sdabb678k3e88563207ddcabb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707201728p34e0e263s3d66b649833a0068@mail.gmail.com> On 7/13/07, William Donzelli wrote: > If you can get anymore of these, please let me know. > > -- > Will Will - sent you a direct email, not sure if it reached you. I'm willing to trade/donate this term (MT-985) if you can put it to use. -j From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 19:37:14 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:37:14 -0500 Subject: 14.3xxx MHz signal on the ISA bus (was Re: Help identifying a capacitor) Message-ID: On 7/20/07, Tony Duell wrote: > The OSC signal was the 14.3xxx MHz master clcok signal in the PC and XT... > > It was used, of course, by the CGA card as the master clock for the video > and colour cubcarrier timing. Some other cards used it, often divided > down, as a master clock. Is there a list anywhere of what cards tended to use that signal? I ask because I manufacture the GG2 Bus+ bus adapter for the Amiga, and, because that signal is on the ISA bus, the designer of the card slapped a $3 oscillator on it to provide it. I have a number of unassembled cards and, honestly, would like to leave that signal off if there's no expectation of folks needing it. These days, the most common use for an ISA bus on an Amiga are either for Ethernet (NE2000 or SMC 80x3) or serial (8250/16550). There are other drivers, but nobody really cares about those anymore. Certainly, nobody I am aware of is hanging a CGA card off of an Amiga, but there's no reason why it wouldn't work from a technical standpoint (and the holes are on the board for the oscillator anyway). So... after the AT faded away and folks were running EGA and VGA on 386s and up, was the 14.3xxx MHz signal still relevant, or just an artifact? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 20 20:06:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 18:06:29 -0700 Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707201726n75cf7a81g7b78adb70c5d766e@mail.gmail.com> References: , <46A0ED67.12572.22386DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <51ea77730707201726n75cf7a81g7b78adb70c5d766e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A0F9A5.32468.25354F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2007 at 19:26, Jason T wrote: > I thought Trimline at first, but I see Pete's in the UK. Was there a > "Trimphone" model over there? I know my Trimline never "chirps," it > RINGS! Nope, it's "Trimphone"--see: http://www.robertopiecollection.com/Application/Products/Teleph/Trimph ones-GB.asp Very odd-looking beast when compared to the Trimline. Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jul 20 21:25:15 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 22:25:15 -0400 Subject: EIA connectors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just to close the loop on this, I did order (and receive) from TheSupplyStores.com, a Hirose EIAJ connector and shell (part E8M). Total: $18 shipped. The Tandy CM-1 monitor now works with the T2k I have. The cable is a simple 9-pin serial extension cable (M-F) from which I cut off the female side and wired-up the EIAJ connector. On 7/4/07 5:41 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> All: >> >> I came across a video monitor for one of my machines that has an 8-pin >> rectangular connector with locking tabs. I remember from my days as an >> audio-video geek in high school that this is sometimes called an =B3EIA >> connector=B2. I remember we used these cables to connect JVC and Sony VTR >> equipment. > > If it's the connector I'm thining of (8 pins in a 4*2 array, with a > larger gap between the rows at one end to give polarisation), then I > remmeber it as an EIAJ connector. > > I've seen them used on reel-to-reel VTRs, for audio in/out, video in/out > and 4 grounds. I've also seen them used for RGB + Sync. > > -tony Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jul 20 23:55:11 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 05:55:11 +0100 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? References: Message-ID: <005001c7cb53$51eb7ce0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> Brings back memories....the 2B was my first modem back >>in '85. > > Did you get it from 'Display Electronics'? They were advertising >them at the time.... As a matter of fact I did, though indirectly. One of my friends drove to their shop in London to buy one of those SMD(?) hard drives they were selling at the time and picked up the modem while he was there. I got it about a month later when he got bored of it.... :-) >> I may still have some documentation somewhere if it's any use to you? > > I'd be interested in knowing what you've got, certainly... I do recall getting hold of a technical manual for the unit from a vendor at a rally, since the documentation supplied by Display Electronics was little more than a double sided sheet of A4. I've had a quick look around for it, but it hasn't turned up yet. If I can find it you're more than welcome to have it, but in those days I had a habit of not holding onto documentation when I disposed of stuff.... :-( I'll keep you posted. TTFN - Pete. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 21 08:16:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:16:11 -0500 Subject: OT: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) In-Reply-To: <003401c7cb2a$682ec8f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20070717144712.O32094@shell.lmi.net> <469D4179.5080303@yahoo.co.uk><20070717190330.W45121@shell.lmi.net> <469DCEEE.4000407@yahoo.co.uk> <003401c7cb2a$682ec8f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46A2071B.1000300@yahoo.co.uk> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > The one next to me here is a rotary (1967 I think, a GPO 706) - when > >I get time it'll be replaced by my 1940's one (a 162).... > > Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know where I could find a > schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model > rather than the rotary dial model). Afraid not - the old Freshwater site now at http://www.britishtelephones.com (probably of interest to several here!) is the usual resource, but it doesn't seem to have a schematic for the DTMF Trimphone :( You could try uk.telecom - there are still a few old-timers there and someone might know. I suspect that the data was never released as those phones weren't supposed to be field repairable at that level :( cheers Jules From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Jul 21 04:18:13 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:18:13 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707210218y7f680feds5f199d925b843ff7@mail.gmail.com> On 21/07/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Regardless of what the automotive people say about repairability, I > submit that modern television receivers aren't made to be repairable. > If it were otherwise, you'd be able to find people who repair them > for a living. > You still can. At least, I did a year or two ago when the (then main) TV set in the living room went bang. It cost substantially less than a new set of comparable quality, to repair. Unfortunately the previous TV I'd had for years, which I had hung onto just in case, wasn't so lucky. The LOPT had gone, which I knew from it's diagnostics, and it wasn't 'economic' to repair - i.e. for that one it was cheaper to buy a new TV. > To be sure, some of the problems described on the giveaway sets sound > fairly simple--e.g. picture and sound suddenly disappear. But even > so, sets less than a year old seem to end up in the waste stream. The quantity I see discarded, sat by the rubbish bins, is disheartening, as are the numbers that end up being kicked around the local bits of waste ground by the kids. Surely they can't all (have been) beyond repair, or even faulty? The local freecycle list gets lots of TV on it, (and CRT monitors..) so I presume it's mostly down to people 'upgrading' and simply chucking out their old sets. Most ridiculous example I spotted was a >40" rear projection set I saw sat out at the side of the road.. with it's rear hanging off.. ( I was on my way out to an appointment or I'd have stopped for it, and it was gone when I came back... ) Now those are still relatively expensive, so it would probably have made sense even to pay to get it fixed, had it needed it. Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jul 21 04:44:17 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:44:17 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70707210218y7f680feds5f199d925b843ff7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70707210218y7f680feds5f199d925b843ff7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A1D571.8020609@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/07/2007 10:18, Rob wrote: > On 21/07/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Regardless of what the automotive people say about repairability, I >> submit that modern television receivers aren't made to be repairable. >> If it were otherwise, you'd be able to find people who repair them >> for a living. > You still can. At least, I did a year or two ago when the (then main) > TV set in the living room went bang. It cost substantially less than > a new set of comparable quality, to repair. You can here in York, too. There are two repairers I know of. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 21 18:33:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:33:17 -0500 Subject: AIX 2.1 root passwords (IBM RT) Message-ID: <46A297BD.2030909@yahoo.co.uk> Well our IBM RT / 5085 / CATIA setup all checks out and the hard disks seem good - it'll boot to a login prompt on the MDA console (and issue a message about the 5085 interconnect being happy) Unfortunately we have no idea what the root password is :-( Tried the obvious guesses. Are there any kind of tricks in order to reset / break the root password under AIX 2.1? We seem to have a reasonable complement of AIX floppies - perhaps there's a way in there? Or maybe an insecure account which can be used to snarf the passwd file (did AIX use shadow passwords)? Or maybe a way of dropping to single user on the console without a login password? etc. etc. Sadly the hard disks are ESDI - if they were SCSI it'd be trivial to stick them in a different machine and start hacking at the disk block level. Last resort I suppose is to install a copy of the OS on another drive, then attach the current OS drive as a secondary, mount the relevant partition, and edit the 'current' password file. That's a lot of effort though, and I'm not sure what we have in the way of spare ESDI drives anyway. (I don't think we have full install media for additional things like CATIA, so reinstalling the OS over the top of the current data is something we'd like to avoid) cheers Jules From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Jul 21 15:23:25 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 21:23:25 +0100 Subject: Recovering Memorex tapes Message-ID: <1185049405.11374.53.camel@ljw.me.uk> At the recent BCS at 50 event, I spoke to Dr Jeremy John from the British Library. He is their "Curator of Digital Manuscripts" and as everyone here will know he has his work cut out trying to preserve and access the documents they have. He mentioned that they were having problems with a particular Memorex tape. I think this is 9-track tape. It sounds like the binder has failed, and the oxide is lifting off the tape. Apparently they've tried heating it, but this hasn't improved things (I'm not sure how many tapes they're dealing with). I think the following is what they are dealing with: http://www.spectrumdata.com.au/content.aspx?cid=155 Rather than ask for specific remedial suggestions here, can anyone suggest companies or organisations in Britain which could deal with this? I'll pass suggestions on, or if you think you can help directly then I will put you in touch. Thanks, -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 21 15:43:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 21:43:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) In-Reply-To: <003401c7cb2a$682ec8f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jul 21, 7 01:02:14 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > The one next to me here is a rotary (1967 I think, a GPO 706) - when > >I get time it'll be replaced by my 1940's one (a 162).... > > Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know where I could find a > schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model > rather than the rotary dial model). Are you sure it's DTMF? Most GPO 'phones were pulse-dialing, even if they had a keypad. GPO exchanges didn't eespond ot DTMF signals AFAIK. There may have neen an N-diagram for it (there's an archive of these on the web -- do a google search for 'N-diagram'). If you know the GPO number for the 'phone (like the '706' that Jules mentioned the other day), the N-diagram number is 100 more than the telephone type number -- so the schematic for a 706 is in N-dagram 806. However, N-diagrams do not contain internal schematics of modules, like the dialer or the ringer. There was, AFAIK, no field repair of PCBs. > One of mine got "zapped" during a thunderstorm and now crackles very quietly > instead of "chirping" when it rings.... :-( I didn't think the ringer was that complicatated. Can't you trace out the schematic? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 21 15:48:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 21:48:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 20, 7 05:18:06 pm Message-ID: > > Regardless of what the automotive people say about repairability, I > submit that modern television receivers aren't made to be repairable. THankfully I've not had one on my bench yet, but I am told that the flat-panel TVs (both plasma and LCD) are repaired by board-swapping. The so-called service manual includes no scheamtics, or even details of the signals between PCBs. Just a fault-finding chart of the form 'for fault If it were otherwise, you'd be able to find people who repair them > for a living. There is also the fact that TVs (and other thigns) are too darn cheap.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 21 15:51:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 21:51:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: 14.3xxx MHz signal on the ISA bus (was Re: Help identifying a In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 20, 7 07:37:14 pm Message-ID: > > On 7/20/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > The OSC signal was the 14.3xxx MHz master clcok signal in the PC and XT... > > > > It was used, of course, by the CGA card as the master clock for the video > > and colour cubcarrier timing. Some other cards used it, often divided > > down, as a master clock. > > Is there a list anywhere of what cards tended to use that signal? I Not that I know of. But it was used on quite a few cards you'd not expect, just as a master clock. I know, for example, my POST card (displayes the POST errror codes) divides OSC down by 2^n (for a large n) to get the display multiplexing signal... > ask because I manufacture the GG2 Bus+ bus adapter for the Amiga, and, > because that signal is on the ISA bus, the designer of the card > slapped a $3 oscillator on it to provide it. I have a number of > unassembled cards and, honestly, would like to leave that signal off > if there's no expectation of folks needing it. You seem to have a choice. Save $3 and have to put up with people complaining (and even worse not complaining, but telling their friends that your design doesn;t work right) or do things properly and fit that oscillator. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 21 16:56:12 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:56:12 -0700 Subject: Recovering Memorex tapes Message-ID: <46A280FC.9040403@bitsavers.org> > He mentioned that they were having problems with a particular Memorex > tape. My sympathies. I have hundreds of reels of the crap I have to deal with. > Apparently they've tried > heating it, but this hasn't improved things You have to supply a LOT of air for it to have any effect. The humidity needs to be low, though that is generally a side-effect of getting a chamber up to 55deg C. > can anyone > suggest companies or organisations in Britain which could deal with > this? Not that I have any personal experience with. The brands pointed to by the spectrumdata page are the WORST of the worst (ie. silver label memorex circa. mid-80's) The only person I know who claims to have 'solved' the recovery problem uses custom transports and industrial-sized tape ovens. He is completely unreliable, though, and has personally ripped me off for several thousand dollars worth of tape transports and heads. The two failure modes I've seen on binder is layer-layer adhesion, which can be reduced through baking, and binder deposit if the tape EVER stops moving during reads. The tape should be baked, cooled, then retensioned on a transport with no read-write head, then read using the best transducer you can find WITHOUT STOPPING. There is a high probablity with Memorex tape that even after all that the head will still drop out from binder clog. Analog data recovery and DSP techniques have been used successfully to recover 7 track tapes that were unreadable using the data separators on the drive. Magnetorestrictive transducers like the IBM 3480/3490 heads are more sensitive than conventional inductive heads, but don't map exactly to the track layout of 7 and 9 track drives. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 21 17:01:59 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2901 OT In-Reply-To: <200707211702.l6LH12Jn037101@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <60504.33490.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > William Blair wrote: > > > > Just as an off-topic diversion from a subject that I don't think is actually off-topic, here > > are a number of die photos including some from the AMD 29xx and 29xxx series and others: > > > > http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > ..no need to consider it off-topic, a lot of the photos in there are of old > chips, including an 8080 and 1802. > > One of the links on that page, > http://www.cacs.louisiana.edu/~mgr/404/burks/pcinfo/hardware/cpu.htm, presents > an interesting overview of microprocs from 70/80/90's, both well-known and > lesser-known ones, far more than just a timeline. Thanks. I guess I should have mentioned that it's my web page. ;-) Best regards, Bill ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From dave at mitton.com Sun Jul 22 00:12:28 2007 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 01:12:28 -0400 Subject: VMS Empire Source tapes Message-ID: <200707220513.l6M5DO9M049372@keith.ezwind.net> I have two 7" reel mag tapes upon which I recorded the Fortran sources to VMS Empire. I would like to pass them on to someone that can read and play it. Both are dated 3-Oct-80 version V3.B7 One says "DOS Format" on it. I'm not sure if the other is DOS or something else. Each tapes is in a plastic two piece container, and the write rings have been removed. These would have likely been code that I submitted to one of the DECUS releases. Yes, I had something to do with the VMS Empire, but it was mostly debugging and getting it to run on VMS. It was also probably one of the first cases of code pilfering over the DEC network, as my eventual partner in VMS made a copy the code out of my development directory in the Mill. The original code was written by Walter Bright on a DECsystem 10. Depending on the responses, I'll figure out whom to send this to. Given that it was released to DECUS, are the DECUS distributions accessible somewhere? Dave. From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Sat Jul 21 16:14:38 2007 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:14:38 -0700 Subject: Recovering Memorex tapes In-Reply-To: <1185049405.11374.53.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <1185049405.11374.53.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi Lawrence, Al Kossow (CC'd) has setup a lab at the Computer History Museum to process magnetic tapes with this type of problem. He monitors ClassicCmp, so I'm sure he'll offer suggestions, advice, and comments on how successful we have been. Cheers, Lee Courtney Software Preservation Group Computer History Museum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Wilkinson > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 1:23 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Recovering Memorex tapes > > At the recent BCS at 50 event, I spoke to Dr Jeremy John from > the British Library. He is their "Curator of Digital > Manuscripts" and as everyone here will know he has his work > cut out trying to preserve and access the documents they have. > > He mentioned that they were having problems with a particular > Memorex tape. I think this is 9-track tape. It sounds like > the binder has failed, and the oxide is lifting off the tape. > Apparently they've tried heating it, but this hasn't > improved things (I'm not sure how many tapes they're dealing with). > > I think the following is what they are dealing with: > http://www.spectrumdata.com.au/content.aspx?cid=155 > > Rather than ask for specific remedial suggestions here, can > anyone suggest companies or organisations in Britain which > could deal with this? I'll pass suggestions on, or if you > think you can help directly then I will put you in touch. > > Thanks, > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > > From n8uhn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 22 02:53:01 2007 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 00:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer In-Reply-To: <200707211703.l6LH2NAi037212@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <534364.71081.qm@web30501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Can Someone repost the link to the scans? it sounds like an interesting project. 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer > - scan available Bill ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jul 22 09:09:26 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:09:26 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer In-Reply-To: <534364.71081.qm@web30501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <534364.71081.qm@web30501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200707221009.26369.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 22 July 2007 03:53, Bill Allen Jr wrote: > Can Someone repost the link to the scans? > > it sounds like an interesting project. > > 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer > > > - scan available On Tuesday 17 July 2007 10:54, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have a scan of this article up on my site at: > > http://www.dvq.com/info/neon_bulb_computer_ei_11_66.pdf Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jul 22 12:16:34 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:16:34 -0700 Subject: CDC-wren fault Message-ID: <4d0ff568744dda6cc59db7051b3f1b79@valleyimplants.com> I have the Seagate version of the CDC Wren-4 (ST4376N) and I was wondering if anyone knew of an easy fix for the following fault: Disk spins up (jumpered to spin up automatically) head lock clicks up, two "burbles" that I think mean head seeks and then the drive shuts off and the heads lock again. I don't see any lights flash on the front, but I'm not sure if it has an activity LED. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 22 13:58:16 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:58:16 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 20 July 2007 20:18, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Regardless of what the automotive people say about repairability, I > submit that modern television receivers aren't made to be repairable. > If it were otherwise, you'd be able to find people who repair them > for a living. Having been there and done that in the past, it's not the repairability of the sets, its the economics of running a service business and the amount of money that you need to charge to stay in business vs. the cost of simply replacing it with a new one. _That_ is what killed it for me... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From n8uhn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 22 15:19:43 2007 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 13:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: broadcast automation yahoo group Message-ID: <345255.47607.qm@web30513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, i finally got around to starting a yahoo group called "broadcast automation" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BroadcastAutomation a place to share memories, photo's, repair tip's and general knowledge about vintage and not so vintage broadcast automation and other broadcast radio/tv gear. the group is geared toward collectors but all are welcome to join. like i said, i just created the group so the page/remailer is rough but as people join and post it can only grow ;-) please let anyone else who may be interested know about the new group Bill ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 22 16:22:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:22:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: CDC-wren fault In-Reply-To: <4d0ff568744dda6cc59db7051b3f1b79@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Jul 22, 7 10:16:34 am Message-ID: > > I have the Seagate version of the CDC Wren-4 (ST4376N) and I was > wondering if anyone knew of an easy fix for the following fault: > > Disk spins up (jumpered to spin up automatically) head lock clicks up, > two "burbles" that I think mean head seeks and then the drive shuts off Probably no help, but... My guess is that thase _are_ head seeks, and it's looking for something (servo information?) on the disks. And since it then shuts down, it presuambly can't find what it expects Since it moves the heads, the disk is presumablty up to speed (normally hard movement is inhibited until this is OK). The problem coule, alas, be almost anywhere, heads, disks, head amplifiers, servo circuity, etc :-( I know the OEM manuals for the older Wens, while not containing schematics, did at least contain pinouts between the PCBs, with named signals. I have no idea if that information is available for your drive, but it might be worth looking for. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 22 17:11:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 15:11:20 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com>, <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jul 2007 at 14:58, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Having been there and done that in the past, it's not the repairability of > the sets, its the economics of running a service business and the amount of > money that you need to charge to stay in business vs. the cost of simply > replacing it with a new one. _That_ is what killed it for me... Roy, one thing occurred to me. What is the current service life designed for by the major manufacturers? I ask because of a recent episode with a microwave oven. We replaced a microwave oven that dated from about 1980 with a newer one about 4 years ago. The big difference (both were Japanese brands) is that the oven box in the old one looked to be a very tough porcelain enamel--almost impossible to scratch. In the newer model, the coating was a simple baked-on epoxy enamel paint that failed in less than 2 years. After recoating it a couple of times with ratttle- can epoxy, I gave up and purchased a new one with a stainless steel interior. But the oven itself is much lighter and I suspect that the electronics will not have 20 years of life in them. Is a shorter service life by design a feature of modern consumer electronics (and in particular, computer gear)appliances and automobiles? Cheers, Chuck From davis at saw.net Sun Jul 22 18:40:44 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:40:44 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com>, <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Jul 2007 at 14:58, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > >> Having been there and done that in the past, it's not the repairability of >> the sets, its the economics of running a service business and the amount of >> money that you need to charge to stay in business vs. the cost of simply >> replacing it with a new one. _That_ is what killed it for me... >> > > Roy, one thing occurred to me. What is the current service life > designed for by the major manufacturers? I ask because of a recent > episode with a microwave oven. > > We replaced a microwave oven that dated from about 1980 with a newer > one about 4 years ago. The big difference (both were Japanese > brands) is that the oven box in the old one looked to be a very tough > porcelain enamel--almost impossible to scratch. In the newer model, > the coating was a simple baked-on epoxy enamel paint that failed in > less than 2 years. After recoating it a couple of times with ratttle- > can epoxy, I gave up and purchased a new one with a stainless steel > interior. But the oven itself is much lighter and I suspect that the > electronics will not have 20 years of life in them. > > Is a shorter service life by design a feature of modern consumer > electronics (and in particular, computer gear)appliances and > automobiles? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > I just read an recent article in eetimes that the target life of new ICs is 10 years. This is due to metal migration and other (i can't remember ) effects that sub-micron processes exhibit. I guess you should hang on to all the old gear you can get, because everything built today will be land-fill in 10 years. I too have that microwave, stainless on the outside for no apparent reason and a painted interior. The coating failed after a few years. Jim Davis From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jul 22 18:51:55 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 19:51:55 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> Message-ID: <200707221951.55494.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 22 July 2007 19:40, davis wrote: > I just read an recent article in eetimes that the target life of new > ICs is 10 years. This is due to metal migration and other (i can't > remember ) effects that sub-micron processes exhibit. I guess you > should hang on to all the old gear you can get, because everything > built today will be land-fill in 10 years. I too have that microwave, > stainless on the outside for no apparent reason and a painted > interior. The coating failed after a few years. "Target life-time" doesn't mean that every one of the chips will be dead in 10 years. Realistically, at worst, 1/2 will be dead in 10 years, and more likely than not it'll be somewhere more favorable on the bell curve than that [an insignificant amount of dead chips until 10 years out]. There's plenty of products that were produced 20+ years ago which had worse "target life" (though not all of it had anything to do with design). Of course, depending on the product, I'm sure they might have much longer than 10 year lifetimes... especially in markets like military, aerospace, marine, etc. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 18:52:06 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 19:52:06 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> Message-ID: > I just read an recent article in eetimes that the target life of new ICs > is 10 years. This is due to metal migration and other (i can't remember > ) effects that sub-micron processes exhibit. This is not really that big of news. When I have asked some chip guys I know, they have all said the same thing - all ICs will eventually fail due to migrations. As the geometries shrink, the lifetimes shorten. Even with the older chips with relatively large geometries, time is ticking away. 100 year old working ICs may never exist. But then, tubes are in the same boat. They will all go gassy eventually... > I guess you should hang on > to all the old gear you can get, because everything built today will be > land-fill in 10 years. Recycle! -- Will From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 22 19:03:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:03:17 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com>, <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> Message-ID: <46A3F045.8010101@yahoo.co.uk> davis wrote: > I just read an recent article in eetimes that the target life of new ICs > is 10 years. This is due to metal migration and other (i can't remember > ) effects that sub-micron processes exhibit. Forget ten; apparently one well-known chip manufacturer quoted three years at us the other week for their latest generation of devices. I believe that's three years whether the thing's on or not too - natural decay of the IC, not something brought about by it being powered. > because everything built today will be land-fill in 10 years. Wonderful, isn't it? And people wonder why I don't like modern technology... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 19:17:19 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 20:17:19 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A3F045.8010101@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> <46A3F045.8010101@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Forget ten; apparently one well-known chip manufacturer quoted three years at > us the other week for their latest generation of devices. I believe that's > three years whether the thing's on or not too - natural decay of the IC, not > something brought about by it being powered. What "well-known chip manufacturer"? I find it hard to believe three years as a target...they would be forcing themselves out of many, many markets, effectively shooting themselves in the foot. -- Will From davis at saw.net Sun Jul 22 19:38:29 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 17:38:29 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> <46A3F045.8010101@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46A3F885.3020706@saw.net> William Donzelli wrote: >> Forget ten; apparently one well-known chip manufacturer quoted three >> years at >> us the other week for their latest generation of devices. I believe >> that's >> three years whether the thing's on or not too - natural decay of the >> IC, not >> something brought about by it being powered. > > What "well-known chip manufacturer"? I find it hard to believe three > years as a target...they would be forcing themselves out of many, many > markets, effectively shooting themselves in the foot. > > -- > Will > > Damn sure, As senior bottle washer and code monkey for a small display manufacturer, I would like to know what company is stupid enough to quote 3 years. Jim Davis. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 19:47:47 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 17:47:47 -0700 Subject: AIX 3.2 Installation Media - anyone got a spare set? Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90707221747gbe22d4h4e535ebaa866c4c5@mail.gmail.com> I rescued some 1990 vintage RS/6000 7012 & 7013 boxes which I don't know much about yet. It appears that AIX v3 is what originally would have been installed on these. Anyone got a spare set of AIX 3.2 installation media that I could use to get an OS loaded on these again, or know where I would have any luck finding this? A quick check of eBay turns up some V5 installation media for sale, but that would most likely choke on these old boxes and I don't see anyone currently listing old AIX versions. -Glen From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 22 20:18:15 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:18:15 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707222118.15253.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 22 July 2007 18:11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Jul 2007 at 14:58, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Having been there and done that in the past, it's not the repairability > > of the sets, its the economics of running a service business and the > > amount of money that you need to charge to stay in business vs. the cost > > of simply replacing it with a new one. _That_ is what killed it for > > me... > > Roy, one thing occurred to me. What is the current service life > designed for by the major manufacturers? I ask because of a recent > episode with a microwave oven. > > We replaced a microwave oven that dated from about 1980 with a newer > one about 4 years ago. The big difference (both were Japanese > brands) is that the oven box in the old one looked to be a very tough > porcelain enamel--almost impossible to scratch. In the newer model, > the coating was a simple baked-on epoxy enamel paint that failed in > less than 2 years. After recoating it a couple of times with ratttle- > can epoxy, I gave up and purchased a new one with a stainless steel > interior. But the oven itself is much lighter and I suspect that the > electronics will not have 20 years of life in them. > > Is a shorter service life by design a feature of modern consumer > electronics (and in particular, computer gear)appliances and > automobiles? It's quite possible, but not being "on the inside" I really couldn't say for sure. I know that an awful lot of stuff has become commodities, with prices being pressed ever downward, and so it's not surprising to see them cutting corners in various ways. At least a microwave is one of those few appliances that's still mostly metal, these days, I don't see them going away from that any time soon (though it wouldn't surprise me if they did somehow). Much has changed in manufacturing where it's apparently way more economical to deal with fewer subassemblies so repairs get more expensive when the price of those goes up (and I see this happening with cars, too). And then there's the basic costs of operating a service business, which don't drop -- they continue to rise, as costs go up, and when it becomes cheaper to buy new then you lose that chunk of your business. We did a lot of c64 repairs way back when. When the machine sold for $595 as it did at first, then a $60 repair bill made economic sense. When they sold for only $99 (as they did later on), it was a tossup. And that's one of the things that killed our last business, that combined with the board-swap that most PC users felt that they could handle themselves as opposed to getting something fixed by a shop. I remember the early 8" floppy drives having 3-figure price tags. In those days they were worth fixing. I never got an 8" alignment disk but I did get a couple of them that were for 5.25" drives, at $25-50 each, and they were worth the investment, but these days with 3.5" drives being either tossed and available for free or maybe $5-6 at most, they're simply not worth messing with. Same trend, different bits... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 22 18:56:59 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 17:56:59 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [alt.sys.pdp8] Re: Spare cards for 8/L Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 17:23:01 -0500 Groups: alt.sys.pdp8 From: "Gordon S. Hlavenka" Reply: nospam at crashelex.com Org: Crash Electronics Subject: Re: Spare cards for 8/L Re: Id: ======== Chuck Harris wrote: > Try and order up a 74181 of any flavor, or a 74182. Or a 7438. I used to own an electronics store, and most of the inventory is still stacked around the garage, crawlspace, attic, etc... Anyway, I have about 90 of the 74182, and a dozen 7438. (I don't have any 6100s, sorry :-) I also have a lot of other older ICs; 74xx, 74F, 74S, and so on. Even a few 5400 family. The store is gone; I just couldn't bear to dump all the STUFF, ya know? But if anybody's looking for ICs or discretes to resurrect an old machine, let me know and I might be able to help out for the cost of a SASE and some change. -- Gordon S. Hlavenka http://www.crashelectronics.com It's bad luck to be superstitious From jam at magic.com Sun Jul 22 23:23:00 2007 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available Message-ID: <200707230423.VAA14746@mist.magic.com> > On Sunday 22 July 2007 19:40, davis wrote: > > I just read an recent article in eetimes that the target life of new > > ICs is 10 years. This is due to metal migration and other (i can't > > remember ) effects that sub-micron processes exhibit. I guess you > > should hang on to all the old gear you can get, because everything > > built today will be land-fill in 10 years. I too have that microwave, > > stainless on the outside for no apparent reason and a painted > > interior. The coating failed after a few years. > > "Target life-time" doesn't mean that every one of the chips will be dead > in 10 years. Realistically, at worst, 1/2 will be dead in 10 years, > and more likely than not it'll be somewhere more favorable on the bell > curve than that [an insignificant amount of dead chips until 10 years > out]. There's plenty of products that were produced 20+ years ago > which had worse "target life" (though not all of it had anything to do > with design). Yes, it's much further out on the normal curve. Chip makers have a strong incentive to make chips have long lifetimes. Nobody is going to buy huge volumes of chips that will all die soon. Complicated chips in modern geometries often take many $1M's and often $10M's to develop when you consider the NRE (a few $M's), the tools, and the number of person-years that go into them. If you build chips that die soon, you won't have any customers and that makes it kind of hard to recoup all of those $M's. You really want the product to become obsolete for some other reason than because the chips start dying. If you were creating a mass-market product, would you want to take a $1B write-off on earnings when the world discovered your stuff dies before it's "natural" obsolescence cycle? The general practice is to take the desired lifetime (often 10 years for the server type of chips that I usually build), worst case average temperature, worst case voltage, maximum frequency, pessimistic estimate of how often each signal inside the chip switches, and worst case process variation. A program then applies a formula to each of the structures in the chip design to see if each meets the lifetime expectation with some probability, well over 99%. The models used by these programs take more and more effects into account with each generation. Foundry's work very hard to have good models and work very hard to understand what structures will age poorly and provide design rules to avoid those. Sometimes they mess up and they spend $100M's or more to fix it because their reputation is valuable. For server type applications, the design teams work very hard to be sure that all of the estimates are *not* optimistic. More often, the estimates are fairly pessimistic. The reason is that the probability needs to be really high if you are putting a lot of chips into a box and want the box itself to have a lifetime of 10 years; if a box has 100 chips with only 99% probability of 10 year lifetime, then the contribution from the chips alone would mean that only 37% of the boxes last for 10 years. Bringing this somewhat back on topic ... one of the worst factors in the equation is the average operating temperature. The lifetime falls exponentially with the temperature. If you can get your chips 10 degrees cooler, you will greatly extend their life; make sure boxes have good fans and that the fans are working well. I don't know what fudge factors and design life were used for commercial chips from the '70s, but no matter what the target was, keep it cool! James Markevitch From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Jul 22 23:39:03 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 05:39:03 +0100 Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) References: , <46A0ED67.12572.22386DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <51ea77730707201726n75cf7a81g7b78adb70c5d766e@mail.gmail.com> <46A0F9A5.32468.25354F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <005f01c7cce3$66cea650$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Nope, it's "Trimphone"--see: > Very odd-looking beast when compared to the Trimline. Yep, that's the one....sort of reminds me of a block of cheese.... :-) I should have been a bit more specific in my original posting and called it a "GPO Trimphone" (or "BT Trimphone"?). What I *really* like about them is the ringer. Rather than a bell they have an electronic ringer which, well, kind of, sort of, chirps....the sound is very difficult to describe, but unforgettable once you've heard it once (as heard in many British 70's TV shows and SCI-FI films - not to mention the odd Monty Python sketch). TTFN - Pete. From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Jul 22 22:59:07 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 20:59:07 -0700 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply Message-ID: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> Hi all -- Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I suspect the power supply is at fault. Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from the power supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the system's motherboard pulses at the same rate. Obviously I haven't run it for more than a few seconds like this :). There are no obviously bad parts (burned parts, swelled/leaking capacitors, etc...) that I can see. I'm mostly a software guy but I'm trying to get more into hardware so that I can better maintain my collection as more stuff starts to break down :). I'd like to make an attempt to fix this but I'm unsure where to start. I have found schematics at: http://www.1000bit.net/SUPPORT/SCHEMA/a3/050-0057-a.jpg. If anyone has any advice, I'd be most appreciative. Thanks in advance! - Josh From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 01:54:54 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 02:54:54 -0400 Subject: AIX 3.2 Installation Media - anyone got a spare set? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90707221747gbe22d4h4e535ebaa866c4c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90707221747gbe22d4h4e535ebaa866c4c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A450BE.5020104@gmail.com> Glen Slick wrote: > I rescued some 1990 vintage RS/6000 7012 & 7013 boxes which I don't > know much about yet. It appears that AIX v3 is what originally would > have been installed on these. Anyone got a spare set of AIX 3.2 > installation media that I could use to get an OS loaded on these > again, or know where I would have any luck finding this? > > A quick check of eBay turns up some V5 installation media for sale, > but that would most likely choke on these old boxes and I don't see > anyone currently listing old AIX versions. Depending on which model 7012 or 7013, it might actually be fast enough to run AIX 5.1. Also, there are very few machines not powerful enough to run AIX 4. AIX 4 is a bit slow on the 320E/320/320H/330 or 520/520H/530/530H (or even a 920 or 930/930H), but those machines are painfully slow in general, and not that common anymore. I used to run a 320H on my desk for a number of years, and I can tell you that you quickly get used to stepping away from your desk for coffee whenever you tell it to start up Mosaic. I would probably not hesitate to run AIX 4 on a 7012-340 or better. AIX 5.1 will run reasonably well on a 370 or better. The main difference is that it uses more RAM. Peace... Sridhar From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 02:18:32 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 00:18:32 -0700 Subject: AIX 3.2 Installation Media - anyone got a spare set? In-Reply-To: <46A450BE.5020104@gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90707221747gbe22d4h4e535ebaa866c4c5@mail.gmail.com> <46A450BE.5020104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90707230018s72f20263v6b262ffa0652f27c@mail.gmail.com> On 7/22/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Glen Slick wrote: > Depending on which model 7012 or 7013, it might actually be fast enough > to run AIX 5.1. Also, there are very few machines not powerful enough > to run AIX 4. AIX 4 is a bit slow on the 320E/320/320H/330 or > 520/520H/530/530H (or even a 920 or 930/930H), but those machines are > painfully slow in general, and not that common anymore. I used to run a > 320H on my desk for a number of years, and I can tell you that you > quickly get used to stepping away from your desk for coffee whenever you > tell it to start up Mosaic. > > I would probably not hesitate to run AIX 4 on a 7012-340 or better. AIX > 5.1 will run reasonably well on a 370 or better. The main difference is > that it uses more RAM. > > Peace... Sridhar > I have a mix, 320, 320H, 520. I believe these are only 20 or 25MHz CPUs. Most so far only have 32MB. One has 64MB. I have a couple more to check. A couple have SGI IrisVision cards. Were those last supported in AIX 3? Only the 64MB one has some remnants of AIX 4 on its hard drives, the other have partially functional AIX 3. The point isn't so much to run the latest and greatest AIX as much as it is to run these as they might have originally run, and probably not too often anyway. -Glen From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 23 02:31:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:31:36 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A3F885.3020706@saw.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> <46A3F045.8010101@yahoo.co.uk> <46A3F885.3020706@saw.net> Message-ID: <46A45958.7060907@yahoo.co.uk> davis wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >>> Forget ten; apparently one well-known chip manufacturer quoted three >>> years at >>> us the other week for their latest generation of devices. I believe >>> that's >>> three years whether the thing's on or not too - natural decay of the >>> IC, not >>> something brought about by it being powered. >> >> What "well-known chip manufacturer"? I find it hard to believe three >> years as a target...they would be forcing themselves out of many, many >> markets, effectively shooting themselves in the foot. >> > Damn sure, As senior bottle washer and code monkey for a small display > manufacturer, I would like to know what company is stupid enough to > quote 3 years. Why is it so surprising? In the portable device arena, where the 'average' person changes their gadgets every couple of years for ones with the latest features, it's the vendors who are dictating ever-smaller, ever-faster chips which necessitate the higher densities. They don't care if the thing dies in three years. In fact, that works entirely in their interest as, providing everybody's doing it (which they are it seems), it means they sell more product than they would otherwise. Call it a good incentive for consumers to upgrade. I believe the three year stuff hasn't left the lab yet (and I suspect it doesn't matter which chip manufacturer you go to - the densities involved mean that's the sort of lifetime you get; it's not a by-product of the manufacturing process used being 'wrong' in some way), but it's where things are heading for the 'next generation' of compact, portable equipment. Now, I don't much care for portable gadgets myself anyway - I wouldn't use a phone to play music or access the 'net for instance, so I can get away with an older model which hopefully has higher design lifetime. What worries me though is the trend for other devices to follow the same "smaller, faster" design parameters and with the prices falling through sheer numbers sold making them commodity items. How long before it's acceptable for a laptop* or a home DVD player to need replacing every three years? * On the business side, that's probably getting close to how often they're swapped out for a newer model anyway :( What I'd *like* to see is some notion of design lifespan quoted as part of product marketing - making it a legal requirement if necessary (as I believe things like crash-test and fuel consumption data is for cars, at least in the UK). That way at least it'd help raise lifespan as an issue amongst the public (because let's face it, the average person seems to love throwing money at new toys every couple of years anyway). The cynic in me says that the politicians have a vested interest in keeping the corporations sweet by allowing them to shift as much product as possible, though :-( From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 23 02:44:10 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:44:10 +0100 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> Message-ID: <46A45C4A.9040006@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> I guess you should hang on >> to all the old gear you can get, because everything built today will be >> land-fill in 10 years. > > Recycle! Anyone know how much that buys you in the grand scheme of things? It uses resources to move dead devices around, strip them to component parts, then move things like PCBs elsewhere for final materials reclaimation - particularly if the scheme involves something really dumb like shipping them by boat halfway around the world. I suspect the recycling step can actually be more harmful than burying the old thing locally and building a replacement from (local) raw materials. I can't help thinking it'd be much nicer to simply build stuff that lasts longer in the first place, and work at educating people about buying products based on what they actually *need* it to do rather than buying something just because it's new and therefore assumed to be better. Maybe make "repairability" a marketing feature too, along with publicising product lifespan (see other post). cheers Jules From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Jul 23 02:51:07 2007 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:51:07 +0200 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> <46A3F045.8010101@yahoo.co.uk> <46A3F885.3020706@saw.net> <46A45958.7060907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001001c7ccfe$3a4e2db0$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" > > What I'd *like* to see is some notion of design lifespan quoted as part of > product marketing - making it a legal requirement if necessary (as I believe > things like crash-test and fuel consumption data is for cars, at least in the > UK). That way at least it'd help raise lifespan as an issue amongst the public > (because let's face it, the average person seems to love throwing money at new > toys every couple of years anyway). > In Denmark, many people toss their cellphone every 6 months. This is because a cell phone is not sold "at cost + profit", but for a ridiculous amount, often 1 danish crown, about 18 US$ cent! This price is possible, because the mobile phone companies subsidize the phones heavily, in order to get the traffic. The phone is then locked to the company. The only condition for getting the phone at a low price, is that they will not change phone company for 6 months. After the "binding period" is gone, the phone can be unlocked softwarewise, and you can change company. Nico From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 03:02:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 04:02:03 -0400 Subject: AIX 3.2 Installation Media - anyone got a spare set? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90707230018s72f20263v6b262ffa0652f27c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90707221747gbe22d4h4e535ebaa866c4c5@mail.gmail.com> <46A450BE.5020104@gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90707230018s72f20263v6b262ffa0652f27c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A4607B.3000900@gmail.com> Glen Slick wrote: > I have a mix, 320, 320H, 520. I believe these are only 20 or 25MHz The 320 and 520 are 20MHz, and the 320H is 25MHz. None of them have L2 cache. A good rule of thumb is that they are roughly as fast as a PowerPC 601 of twice the clock speed. (They're actually slightly slower than that, but not noticeably so.) > CPUs. Most so far only have 32MB. One has 64MB. I have a couple more > to check. A couple have SGI IrisVision cards. Were those last > supported in AIX 3? Only the 64MB one has some remnants of AIX 4 on > its hard drives, the other have partially functional AIX 3. I don't remember clearly, but it may never have been supported by the default install. You might have needed to install drivers for it. I've only ever used the IrisVision MCA cards with PS/2s. Peace... Sridhar From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 04:30:06 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:30:06 +0100 Subject: broadcast automation yahoo group In-Reply-To: <345255.47607.qm@web30513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <345255.47607.qm@web30513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great idea but not on yahoo please Dave Caroline with an old BBC outside broadcast truck On 7/22/07, Bill Allen Jr wrote: > Hi, > > i finally got around to starting a yahoo group called > "broadcast automation" > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BroadcastAutomation > > a place to share memories, photo's, repair tip's and > general > knowledge about vintage and not so vintage broadcast > automation > and other broadcast radio/tv gear. > > the group is geared toward collectors but all are > welcome to join. > > like i said, i just created the group so the > page/remailer is rough > but as people join and post it can only grow ;-) > > please let anyone else who may be interested know > about the new group > > Bill > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. > http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 06:54:55 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 07:54:55 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A45958.7060907@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> <46A3F045.8010101@yahoo.co.uk> <46A3F885.3020706@saw.net> <46A45958.7060907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Why is it so surprising? In the portable device arena, where the 'average' > person changes their gadgets every couple of years for ones with the latest > features, it's the vendors who are dictating ever-smaller, ever-faster chips > which necessitate the higher densities. They don't care if the thing dies in > three years. In fact, that works entirely in their interest as, providing > everybody's doing it (which they are it seems), it means they sell more > product than they would otherwise. Call it a good incentive for consumers to > upgrade. Once again, I ask what "well-known chip manufacturer"? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 06:56:25 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 07:56:25 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A45C4A.9040006@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> <46A45C4A.9040006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Anyone know how much that buys you in the grand scheme of things? It uses > resources to move dead devices around, strip them to component parts, then > move things like PCBs elsewhere for final materials reclaimation - > particularly if the scheme involves something really dumb like shipping them > by boat halfway around the world. I suspect the recycling step can actually be > more harmful than burying the old thing locally and building a replacement > from (local) raw materials. You have no idea how modern electronics recycling works, do you? -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jul 23 10:24:40 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:24:40 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707230423.VAA14746@mist.magic.com> References: <200707230423.VAA14746@mist.magic.com> Message-ID: <200707231124.40843.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 23 July 2007 00:23, James A. Markevitch wrote: > Bringing this somewhat back on topic ... one of the worst factors in the > equation is the average operating temperature. The lifetime falls > exponentially with the temperature. If you can get your chips 10 degrees > cooler, you will greatly extend their life; make sure boxes have good fans > and that the fans are working well. I don't know what fudge factors and > design life were used for commercial chips from the '70s, but no matter > what the target was, keep it cool! I remember some years back a place I was working with had a GRI machine that started getting really flaky. Turned out that the problem was a slipping belt (!) in the outside portion of the a/c system that was supposed to maintain the temperature in the room. In terms of more current stuff, it's amazing how crappy the fans are in a lot of stuff. How they just quit working. I've had to deal with a few issues in that regard recently... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jul 23 10:28:27 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:28:27 -0400 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> References: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200707231128.28296.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 22 July 2007 23:59, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I > suspect the power supply is at fault. > > Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from the > power supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the system's > motherboard pulses at the same rate. Obviously I haven't run it for > more than a few seconds like this :). > > There are no obviously bad parts (burned parts, swelled/leaking > capacitors, etc...) that I can see. > > I'm mostly a software guy but I'm trying to get more into hardware so > that I can better maintain my collection as more stuff starts to break > down :). I'd like to make an attempt to fix this but I'm unsure where > to start. I have found schematics at: > http://www.1000bit.net/SUPPORT/SCHEMA/a3/050-0057-a.jpg. > > If anyone has any advice, I'd be most appreciative. Are there plug-in cards in the system? That'd be the first thing I'd try, removing those to see if lessening the load on the power supply would make that symptom go away. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jul 23 10:35:43 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:35:43 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A45C4A.9040006@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A45C4A.9040006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200707231135.43281.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 23 July 2007 03:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > >> I guess you should hang on to all the old gear you can get, because > >> everything built today will be land-fill in 10 years. > > > > Recycle! > > Anyone know how much that buys you in the grand scheme of things? It uses > resources to move dead devices around, strip them to component parts, then > move things like PCBs elsewhere for final materials reclaimation - > particularly if the scheme involves something really dumb like shipping > them by boat halfway around the world. I suspect the recycling step can > actually be more harmful than burying the old thing locally and building a > replacement from (local) raw materials. > > I can't help thinking it'd be much nicer to simply build stuff that lasts > longer in the first place, and work at educating people about buying > products based on what they actually *need* it to do rather than buying > something just because it's new and therefore assumed to be better. Maybe > make "repairability" a marketing feature too, along with publicising product > lifespan (see other post). > > The question that comes up in my mind is, why isn't this happening now? Market forces would seem to be pushing things in the opposite direction... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Mon Jul 23 09:18:21 2007 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:18:21 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> References: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2007, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I suspect > the power supply is at fault. > > Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from the power > supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the system's motherboard > pulses at the same rate. Obviously I haven't run it for more than a few > seconds like this :). > > There are no obviously bad parts (burned parts, swelled/leaking capacitors, > etc...) that I can see. > > I'm mostly a software guy but I'm trying to get more into hardware so that I > can better maintain my collection as more stuff starts to break down :). I'd > like to make an attempt to fix this but I'm unsure where to start. I have > found schematics at: http://www.1000bit.net/SUPPORT/SCHEMA/a3/050-0057-a.jpg. > > If anyone has any advice, I'd be most appreciative. > > Thanks in advance! > - Josh > I had an Apple ][+ which did the same thing, but it was temperature sensitive. Try warming or cooling the system before powering on. If that works, you can heat/cool individual components to find the one that is causing your problem. I got a replacement supply from the EBay seller, so never determined exactly what was wrong with mine. Clint From richard.smith at mewgull.com Mon Jul 23 11:42:48 2007 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:42:48 +0100 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> References: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> Message-ID: >Hi all -- > >Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I >suspect the power supply is at fault. > >Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from >the power supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the >system's motherboard pulses at the same rate. Obviously I haven't >run it for more than a few seconds like this :). > >There are no obviously bad parts (burned parts, swelled/leaking >capacitors, etc...) that I can see. It's an early switch-mode power supply and the ticking is the device trying to start up, the control circuit says something is wrong, so it shuts down. And cycles all over again. Disconnect the PSU from the rest of the computer before you try anything else. I would trouble-shoot by looking first at Q1 since that is the switching transistor, and then maybe all the electrolytics on the +5V and -5V rails since they are used to provide the reference signal for the feedback circuit. It's all very simple (compared to modern switchers). Richard From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Jul 23 13:58:17 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 23 Jul 2007 11:58:17 -0700 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> References: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> Message-ID: <1185217097.46a4fa49874ac@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Josh Dersch : > Hi all -- > > Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I > suspect the power supply is at fault. > > Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from the > power supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the system's > motherboard pulses at the same rate. Obviously I haven't run it for > more than a few seconds like this :). > --Snip--- Last time I had a power-supply that was clicking there was a bad transistor and a couple of failed caps... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 14:07:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:07:13 -0500 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: References: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> Message-ID: On 7/23/07, Richard Smith wrote: > >Hi all -- > > > >Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I > >suspect the power supply is at fault. > > > >Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from > >the power supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the > >system's motherboard pulses at the same rate. > > It's an early switch-mode power supply and the ticking is the device > trying to start up, the control circuit says something is wrong, so > it shuts down. And cycles all over again. I concur. > Disconnect the PSU from the rest of the computer before you try anything else. Indeed, though you might get different behavior with no load whatsoever. This is where those 6V headlamps come in handy. > I would trouble-shoot by looking first at Q1 since that is the > switching transistor, and then maybe all the electrolytics on the +5V > and -5V rails since they are used to provide the reference signal for > the feedback circuit. It's all very simple (compared to modern > switchers). Agreed. One other thing to consider - I've seen this behavior in other machines when there was no problem whatsoever with the PSU - the problem was with the motherboard - a dead short, typically. If you test the PSU with no load or a dummy load, you might get the PSU to start up. If that happens, check the resistance of each voltage input of the motherboard to ground - resistances near 0 or 1 ohm would suggest a problem on that rail. I last saw this behavior when I attempted to use a modern ATX supply on a Blue&White Mac G3 - the PSU ticked and wouldn't start. Turns out that Apple recycled the pin for -5V as an additional ground. Clipping that pin solved the problem (the Mac doesn't need -5V) - it all started normally and runs fine. Stock ATX supply and stock G3 mobo results in ticking. Without further investigation, you can't easily tell, but it could be either the PSU not starting or it could be the protective circuit kicking in. You can do a lot with a VOM and some resistive loads. -ethan From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Jul 23 14:52:19 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:52:19 +0100 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> References: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> Message-ID: <46A506F3.3000500@gifford.co.uk> Josh Dersch wrote: > Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I > suspect the power supply is at fault. > Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from the > power supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the system's > motherboard pulses at the same rate. This is a classic symptom of a switch-mode power supply that's failing to start up, possibly due to a short on its output. Such a short could be caused by a tantalum capacitor that's simply gone short-circuit with age. The trick will be to find out which one of the (possibly several) tantalum decoupling capacitors is the bad one. An ohm-meter (multimeter on Ohms range) will read the duff capacitor as a short circuit. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 23 16:00:37 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recycling (was: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> <46A45C4A.9040006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070723133234.M43654@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, William Donzelli wrote: > You have no idea how modern electronics recycling works, do you? No, I don't. You pay $25, and they take your broken monitor. Isn't that how it works? When they let the magic smoke out, how successful are they at reclaiming it to reuse it in new parts? Is it possible to remove ALL traces of Windoze from the used parts? When you empty the bit bucket, what percentage of those bits are still reusable? How long do you need to run a harddrive in reverse to reset its odometer? Will your computer display the satanic messages? If you use a bidirectional printer port, then when the computer sends characters to the printer, can the printer send them back to keep the computer from running out of them? Are USB coffee cup warmers one of the major causes of global warming? Has anybody found a REAL use for a Useless Serial Botch port? If you put your keyboard in the dishwasher, should you disconnect it from the computer? How many reliable cycles are there in the life of a computron? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 23 16:45:40 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:45:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) In-Reply-To: <005f01c7cce3$66cea650$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jul 23, 7 05:39:03 am Message-ID: > I should have been a bit more specific in my original posting and called it > a "GPO Trimphone" (or "BT Trimphone"?). I did a bit of poking around for you, and I've found the numbers of the N-diagrams that seem to apply. N886 is the diagram for the wired-in version, N8886 is for the plug-in (both for DTMF models). You can get said diagrams from http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/n_diagrams/ As expected, while you get an overall schematics of the phone, there are no internal schematics for the dialer (keypad/DTMF econder) or ringer. May be some help, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 23 16:59:04 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:59:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: from "Richard Smith" at Jul 23, 7 05:42:48 pm Message-ID: > > >Hi all -- > > > >Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I > >suspect the power supply is at fault. > > > >Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from > >the power supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the > >system's motherboard pulses at the same rate. Obviously I haven't > >run it for more than a few seconds like this :). > > > >There are no obviously bad parts (burned parts, swelled/leaking > >capacitors, etc...) that I can see. > > It's an early switch-mode power supply and the ticking is the device > trying to start up, the control circuit says something is wrong, so > it shuts down. And cycles all over again. > > Disconnect the PSU from the rest of the computer before you try anything else. > > I would trouble-shoot by looking first at Q1 since that is the > switching transistor, and then maybe all the electrolytics on the +5V As you said, it's starting up, the control circuit detects a problem, then it shuts down, and repeats. The flashing LED on the mainboard would seem to indicate the +5V lien is coming up as well. In which case the chopper transistor (and for that matter the mains bridge rectifier) is OK. It couldn't do anything if that was faulty. > and -5V rails since they are used to provide the reference signal for > the feedback circuit. It's all very simple (compared to modern > switchers). I'd check all electrolytics. I've had this fault in another PSU caused by a small capacitor on the primary side of the supply which smoothed the supplie to the chopper control IC. With that open, the supply couldn't keep running. An open (or high ESR, which amounts to much the same thing) capacitor on the output side will put high-ish votlage spikes on the output (say around 10V amplitude) which will most likely trip the crowbard circuit and cause just what you are seeing. Of course it could be a short in the laod, I'd unplug the PSU from the rest of the machine and connect dummy loads (car bulbs are good for this) just to be sure the fault is in the PSU. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 17:46:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:46:18 -0500 Subject: Classiccmpers near Dusseldorf? Message-ID: Are there any list members in or around Dusseldorf or Wuppertal? It looks like the University is sending me there for a few days in August. I've spent plenty of time in Munich, but don't know much about other parts of Germany. Cheers, -ethan From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Jul 23 20:25:16 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:25:16 +0100 Subject: AIX 3.2 Installation Media - anyone got a spare set? References: <1e1fc3e90707221747gbe22d4h4e535ebaa866c4c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006001c7cd91$7ee2c010$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I rescued some 1990 vintage RS/6000 7012 & 7013 boxes which >I don't know much about yet. It appears that AIX v3 is what >originally would have been installed on these.... I've got a copy of AIX "v3.1.0" for RS/6000 lying around, though it's on an 8mm data cart rather than a CD, if it's any use to you (along with a "test tape" and a couple of used backup tapes)? There's also a binder containing some manuals for the 7013 series if you need them; not that they're all *that* useful, but one at least makes interesting reading. I had a 7013 that I had to scrap recently....never even had the chance to strip the memory and drives out of it. :-( TTFN - Pete. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jul 23 22:05:32 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:05:32 -0600 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys Message-ID: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> I'm getting a little closer .. I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk to it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on the serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.) Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical Reference: Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to this thing might be in there ... If anybody else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box, it would be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping the serial cable and watching what comes across. It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I have no idea how to feed it. :-( Thanks in advance, Mike From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Jul 23 21:56:13 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 03:56:13 +0100 Subject: Three "classic" printers (and a PC) available for free (UK) Message-ID: <009601c7cd9e$33938060$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> More stuff to get rid of.... I've got an HP "Laserjet+", a DEC "LA324 MultiPrinter" and an Epson "FX-1170" available for the cost of coming and picking them up from Birmingham. The Epson printer also comes with a free Tandon "Pac 286" AT clone, c/w keyboard and mono monitor (Hercules?) and there might even be a manual or two. It's one of the models with no internal FD and contains two "data pac" receptacles, there's one data pac included (10Mb I think). Never powered any of this stuff up, but it was all working when I received it. Drop me a line off list in interested, thanks. TTFN - Pete. From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Jul 23 19:42:51 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:42:51 -0700 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46A54B0B.7000806@msu.edu> Thanks, everyone, for your helpful responses! I'll definitely test the power supply out with a dummy-load, just need to run out and get some parts when I get a chance. It does appear to run fine with no load whatsoever, and the voltages it's putting out look to be correct under those circumstances. What's the best method for testing for bad capacitors? Thanks again... Josh Tony Duell wrote: >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I >>> suspect the power supply is at fault. >>> >>> Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from >>> the power supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the >>> system's motherboard pulses at the same rate. Obviously I haven't >>> run it for more than a few seconds like this :). >>> >>> There are no obviously bad parts (burned parts, swelled/leaking >>> capacitors, etc...) that I can see. >>> >> It's an early switch-mode power supply and the ticking is the device >> trying to start up, the control circuit says something is wrong, so >> it shuts down. And cycles all over again. >> >> Disconnect the PSU from the rest of the computer before you try anything else. >> >> I would trouble-shoot by looking first at Q1 since that is the >> switching transistor, and then maybe all the electrolytics on the +5V >> > > As you said, it's starting up, the control circuit detects a problem, > then it shuts down, and repeats. The flashing LED on the mainboard would > seem to indicate the +5V lien is coming up as well. > > In which case the chopper transistor (and for that matter the mains > bridge rectifier) is OK. It couldn't do anything if that was faulty. > > >> and -5V rails since they are used to provide the reference signal for >> the feedback circuit. It's all very simple (compared to modern >> switchers). >> > > I'd check all electrolytics. I've had this fault in another PSU caused by > a small capacitor on the primary side of the supply which smoothed the > supplie to the chopper control IC. With that open, the supply couldn't > keep running. An open (or high ESR, which amounts to much the same thing) > capacitor on the output side will put high-ish votlage spikes on the > output (say around 10V amplitude) which will most likely trip the > crowbard circuit and cause just what you are seeing. > > Of course it could be a short in the laod, I'd unplug the PSU from the > rest of the machine and connect dummy loads (car bulbs are good for this) > just to be sure the fault is in the PSU. > > -tony > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 01:49:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:49:03 -0400 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: <46A54B0B.7000806@msu.edu> References: <46A54B0B.7000806@msu.edu> Message-ID: On 7/23/07, Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks, everyone, for your helpful responses! Happy to help. > I'll definitely test the > power supply out with a dummy-load, just need to run out and get some > parts when I get a chance. You can use a lot of things for a dummy load - the reason that headlamps have been suggested is that a) they are resistive and shouldn't make the combination PSU+load circuit too complex, and b) they are much less expensive than other things in case something goes wrong. I have used old hard drives in the past as "dummy loads", with no ill after-effects, fortunately. Sand-block resistors in the 5W range can also be used, but unless you happen to have an assortment lying around, light bulbs are probably easier to aquire at an auto parts or general merchandise store. Have I missed any reasons? > It does appear to run fine with no load > whatsoever, and the voltages it's putting out look to be correct under > those circumstances. There must be some sort of minimum load present in the PSU (not an uncommon design for most switchers, though I have seen switchers made in the 1980s that _do_ require an external load of several watts to kick on). > What's the best method for testing for bad capacitors? Aluminum electrolytics frequently (but not universally) exhibit visible bulges or leaks, but they can still be defective and look perfectly fine. Ceramic and tantalum caps, being rigid and brittle, don't tend to look bad at all (but defective tants have been known to explode). The only way I know to be certain is to take the cap out of the circuit and check for shorts with a VOM and/or capacitance with a capacitance meter (some not-cheap Fluke meters, for example, can do both at a twist of the function dial). After you run your PSU on a dummy load, if it checks out, I'd check your motherboard for shorts of power rails to ground. If it's the +5V line, there will be lots of caps that are suspect. If it's one of the other voltages, there will almost certainly be fewer candidates. The trick to any component-level debugging is to divide and conquer. Try to set up measurements that will help you eliminate parts of the circuit or that will help you zero in on a suspicious area. It's possible that you could have a chip shorted to ground, but unless your board happens to be 100% (or nearly so) socketed, it'll be tough to check them all. You might also check the board for signs of repair. I've seen hack jobs caused by clumsy fingers that had nothing to do with dead components. If all the joints and pads have a uniform grayness to them, then you probably don't have that as an issue, but if you see shiny solder joints on one or more parts, take some time to snoop around that area to reassure yourself that you don't have a bridged connection somewhere. Given how old an Apple III is, though, it wouldn't be a shock (no pun intended) to find out you had a defective cap or two. Checking for a supply-line short to ground is a quick test that should help either narrow down or eliminate swaths of the board quickly. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 24 02:23:09 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 03:23:09 -0400 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> Message-ID: <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> On Jul 23, 2007, at 11:05 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I'm getting a little closer .. > > I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device > communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk > to it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on > the serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.) > > Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical > Reference: Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to > this thing might be in there ... > > If anybody else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box, it > would be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping the > serial cable and watching what comes across. > > It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a > controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I > have no idea how to feed it. :-( I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 02:53:09 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:53:09 -0700 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> On 7/24/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 23, 2007, at 11:05 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I'm getting a little closer .. > > > > I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device > > communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk > > to it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on > > the serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.) > > > > > > It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a > > controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I > > have no idea how to feed it. :-( > > I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've > been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-( > > -Dave > I have an HP A4363A button box and a A4362A dial box. I wonder if they are similar at all to the IBM versions. The button box has 32 buttons with indicators arranged as 6 rows of 4,6,6,6,6,4 buttons. The A4363A button box needs +5V and +/- 12V and talks 9600,N,8,1. On reset all keys should be set to autosend. The reset command from host to device is 0x20 and the device should respond with 0x20 for success or 0x21 for failure. Data values 0xC0 to 0xDF from the device are key down, 0xE0 to 0xFF are key up. Maybe that is useful, or maybe completely useless info for the IBM device. -Glen From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 03:15:21 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:15:21 -0400 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46A5B519.7030301@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 23, 2007, at 11:05 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> I'm getting a little closer .. >> >> I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device >> communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk to >> it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on the >> serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.) >> >> Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical Reference: >> Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to this thing might >> be in there ... >> >> If anybody else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box, it >> would be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping the >> serial cable and watching what comes across. >> >> It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a >> controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I have >> no idea how to feed it. :-( > > I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've been > similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-( I use one on a daily basis at work. What do you want to know? Peace... Sridhar From cheri-post at web.de Tue Jul 24 03:40:13 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:40:13 +0200 Subject: Classiccmpers near Dusseldorf? Message-ID: <7008462@web.de> Hello Ethan, I am from Bonn, which is an hour away from D?sseldorf. Tell me when you're going to be there. Although I don't have much time at the moment, it maybe it's possible to meet in D?sseldorf. Regards, Pierre > Are there any list members in or around Dusseldorf or Wuppertal? It > looks like the University is sending me there for a few days in > August. I've spent plenty of time in Munich, but don't know much > about other parts of Germany. > > Cheers, > > -ethan > _______________________________________________________________________ Jetzt neu! Sch?tzen Sie Ihren PC mit McAfee und WEB.DE. 3 Monate kostenlos testen. http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/startseite/?mc=022220 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 24 08:41:27 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 06:41:27 -0700 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Ethan Dicks" ---snip--- > >Given how old an Apple III is, though, it wouldn't be a shock (no pun >intended) to find out you had a defective cap or two. Checking for a >supply-line short to ground is a quick test that should help either >narrow down or eliminate swaths of the board quickly. > >-ethan Hi I have a method that I've used over the years to locate shorts on PCB's. It can even find a resistive short. A variation on the method can fine multple shorts but that requires things that most don't have. First I'll discribe the principle then actually doing it. Consider a open resistor that one can probe at any location. Put a current through it. Now place one of the leads of a sensitive voltmeter on some location along the resistor. Pretend that you don't know where that probe is touching. Move the other lead of the meter along the resistor. notice that when both meter leads are at the same point, the voltage on the meter reads zero volts. This principle can be used to find a short on a PCB. Lets say that we have a single trace that is shorted to ground. We know it is some place along a 7 inch trace but we don't know exactly where. We take a current regulated supply ( or even a constant voltage supply with a dummy load ) that can put out about 1 to 2 amperes. We place the supply from end to end of the trace. The trace is now like the resistor we had in the first example. The only thing is that the point that is probed by the ground short is unknown. Place one lead on the ground. Now probe along the trace that has the current flowing through it. You'll find a small voltage along most of the trace but it will go to zero at the location of the short. The meter generally needs to be sensitive. A digital meter that reads 200 mV is often enough. Most traces can handle several amperes. The higher the current the higher the voltage drop. This is all fine but what if the short is between two plains on the circuit board. The problem is that even when on find a location that has zero volts, one finds that there are a lot of locations that have zero volts along a line on the plain. First, one needs to use much more current. Typically 10 or more amperes to get enough voltage drop to measure. The next probem is that just connecting the supplies at two corners only gives a line of zero volts. The one thing that is the same is that that the sort is somplace on that line. One can move the power supply to the other corners. This will form another line ( usually a curved line ). Where these two lines cross will be the location of the short. There are other methods of finding shorts but most include driving current across the short. This can be destructive to more than the failing part. It is better to know which part is bad and replace it. This method only has current flowing in parts that are normally designed to carry current. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!? http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 24 12:58:59 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting document listing characteristics of pre-1971 spaceborne computer systems Message-ID: <356013.92081.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Spaceborne digital computer systems, NASA SPACE VEHICLE DESIGN CRITERIA (Guidance), NASA (Washington, DC, United States), March, 1971, pp. 82, Format(s): PDF 10187k http://trs.nis.nasa.gov/archive/00000106/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 24 13:57:41 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:57:41 -0400 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <46A5B519.7030301@gmail.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <46A5B519.7030301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F42A09E-FA41-491C-98A5-76CF3BCB6E21@neurotica.com> On Jul 24, 2007, at 4:15 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> I'm getting a little closer .. >>> >>> I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This >>> device communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how >>> to talk to it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit >>> noise on the serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety >>> of bps rates.) >>> >>> Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical >>> Reference: Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to >>> this thing might be in there ... >>> >>> If anybody else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box, >>> it would be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping >>> the serial cable and watching what comes across. >>> >>> It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a >>> controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I >>> have no idea how to feed it. :-( >> I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've >> been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-( > > I use one on a daily basis at work. > > What do you want to know? Protocol specs! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 24 13:58:48 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:58:48 -0400 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2007, at 3:53 AM, Glen Slick wrote: >> > I'm getting a little closer .. >> > >> > I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device >> > communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk >> > to it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on >> > the serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps >> rates.) >> > >> > >> > It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a >> > controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I >> > have no idea how to feed it. :-( >> >> I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've >> been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-( > > I have an HP A4363A button box and a A4362A dial box. I wonder if > they are similar at all to the IBM versions. The button box has 32 > buttons with indicators arranged as 6 rows of 4,6,6,6,6,4 buttons. > The A4363A button box needs +5V and +/- 12V and talks 9600,N,8,1. On > reset all keys should be set to autosend. The reset command from host > to device is 0x20 and the device should respond with 0x20 for success > or 0x21 for failure. Data values 0xC0 to 0xDF from the device are key > down, 0xE0 to 0xFF are key up. Maybe that is useful, or maybe > completely useless info for the IBM device. Hmmmm that sounds useful. I will see about digging up one of my IBM units to see if it's compatible. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 24 15:05:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:05:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: <46A54B0B.7000806@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jul 23, 7 05:42:51 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks, everyone, for your helpful responses! I'll definitely test the > power supply out with a dummy-load, just need to run out and get some > parts when I get a chance. It does appear to run fine with no load > whatsoever, and the voltages it's putting out look to be correct under > those circumstances. My _guess_ is that the PSU is OK, and that the real fault is a short-circuit from one of the power lines to ground somewhere in the rest of the computer. Have you tried doing a DC resistance check from each power line to ground, on the mainboard with the PSU disconnected? In other words, leave the PSU out, and check the resistance from each of the power pins to the ground pin on the connector where said PSU conenctes. Can you build up the machine in sections (even if it can't boot like that)? Conenct _just_ the mainboard first, then add things like the keyboard, disk drive, expansion cards, etc. In case the shoet is in one of those. > > What's the best method for testing for bad capacitors? Sicne there will be many in parallel, unfortunately, you have to desolder each capacitor and check is separately. In general, the capacitors that fail are the electrolytics, both the aluminium and tanatalum types. Start by doing a DC resistance check to see if they're dead short. Then use an ESR meter (Effective Series Resistance) to find those that have 'dried up' -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 15:43:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:43:53 -0400 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <1F42A09E-FA41-491C-98A5-76CF3BCB6E21@neurotica.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <46A5B519.7030301@gmail.com> <1F42A09E-FA41-491C-98A5-76CF3BCB6E21@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46A66489.7060205@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device >>>> communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk to >>>> it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on the >>>> serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.) >>>> >>>> Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical >>>> Reference: Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to this >>>> thing might be in there ... I'm pretty sure I can get that book. >>>> If anybody else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box, it >>>> would be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping the >>>> serial cable and watching what comes across. >>>> >>>> It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a >>>> controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I have >>>> no idea how to feed it. :-( >>> I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've >>> been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-( >> >> I use one on a daily basis at work. >> >> What do you want to know? > > Protocol specs! :-) I may or may not be able to get protocol specs. I'll have to look. What I know I can get is AIX API docs for it. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 24 16:40:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:40:51 -0700 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <46A66489.7060205@gmail.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com>, <1F42A09E-FA41-491C-98A5-76CF3BCB6E21@neurotica.com>, <46A66489.7060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A60F73.13730.1630726B@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2007 at 16:43, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I may or may not be able to get protocol specs. I'll have to look. > What I know I can get is AIX API docs for it. Might there be something on the API buried here? http://cantelli.mathematik.hu- berlin.de/doc_link/en_US/a_doc_lib/aixgen/wbinfnav/aixprggdsbooks.htm Cheers, Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Jul 24 18:18:40 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:18:40 -0500 Subject: Apple Image Writer Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070724175946.10763640@localhost> Hi all, seems I might be getting fired this week. Interviewed for another position at the same place, but I'm up against someone with more experience. So, things to sell. I've got an Apple Image Writer dot-matrix printer to start with. It's the older version, I think based on a C.Itoh design, or maybe the NEC P8023? It's serial interface only, and there's life left in the ribbon. I didn't connect it to a computer but powered up holding the Form Feed button, it prints a barber-pole test. It's model A9M0303, which is not the more widely available ImageWriter II. It's the original. This dude (not me) has pictures of his. Mine looks just like it, except for the serial number: http://www.myoldcomputers.com/museum/perif/print303.htm I can take and send photos of mine in action, if anyone has interest in the printer. I have and will include the original box and packing materials, and the reference manual, but no serial cable (it's standard DB-25.) Is anyone interested in this item? Thanks, Tom ----- 544. [Love] Many a girl has gotten into trouble by obeying that boyological urge. --Katharine Brush (born 1893) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Jul 24 18:21:28 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:21:28 -0500 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: <46A4278B.8090506@msu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070724182004.00bad058@localhost> At 08:59 PM 7/22/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all -- > >Picked up an Apple III this weekend in non-working condition, and I >suspect the power supply is at fault. > >Symptoms are: On power up, a rapid clicking noise is emitted from the >power supply (maybe 4Hz or so), and the power LED on the system's >motherboard pulses at the same rate. Obviously I haven't run it for more >than a few seconds like this :). > >There are no obviously bad parts (burned parts, swelled/leaking >capacitors, etc...) that I can see. Don't run a switch-mode power supply with no load. Some types don't take kindly to that. The others that suggested unplugging the loads its connected to now are giving good advice, but it should probably have some load in it for testing. -T ----- 396. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die. --Roy: Blade Runner --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 24 19:17:45 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:17:45 -0700 Subject: Advice/Suggestions for repairing Apple III power supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) ---snip--- > > > > What's the best method for testing for bad capacitors? > >Sicne there will be many in parallel, unfortunately, you have to desolder >each capacitor and check is separately. In general, the capacitors that >fail are the electrolytics, both the aluminium and tanatalum types. > >Start by doing a DC resistance check to see if they're dead short. Then >use an ESR meter (Effective Series Resistance) to find those that have >'dried up' > >-tony Hi It isn't totally true that you have to remove the caps to locate the failed one or even ones. The caps typically go completely short one at a time or have enough difference in resistance that the method I posted in the previous post will locate the dead short. I've used this method with as many as three shorted caps. If all are true hard shorts, it is a little more difficult but methods of moving where you connect the supply will help to isolate multiple shorts. It is true though that to locate failing electrolytics that are in the process of drying up but still not shorted require removing to use an ESR meter. Tantalums do tend to fail short and use a dry electrolyte. Ceramics also tend to fail short as well but this is rarer than tantalum failures. Old electrolytics are often just open for low voltage applictions. I have a number of older Lamda bench supplies. I find it interesting that the only electrolytics to be bad in these are a number of axial lead ones with the lable stating " Long Life, Made by Lambda". I suspect they really should have stuck with powersupplies and leave capacitor making to someone else. As was also mentioned by others, one should not run switchers without a minimal load on the major output. This is usually the +5V. This is because, even though when you measure the voltage, it looked good, when the power first comes on, these can significantly over shoot and blow components in the regulation path. Always supply some load. If the supply has multiple switcher paths, it is necessary to load those outputs as well. It is typical for most consumer supplies to use the switcher regulation only on the +5v and then use linears on the +- rails of 12V. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jul 24 19:45:34 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:45:34 +0100 Subject: Three "classic" printers (and a PC) available for free (UK) References: <009601c7cd9e$33938060$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <006801c7ce55$1da7d9b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Also just found an IBM "ProPrinter XL24", this one is in completely unknown condition though. Same deal, just come and take it away....ha, ha, hee, hee, to the funny farm....sorry.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jul 24 20:16:30 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:16:30 +0100 Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) References: Message-ID: <007301c7ce59$6f905690$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Are you sure it's DTMF? Most GPO 'phones were pulse-dialing, even if they >had a keypad. GPO exchanges didn't eespond ot DTMF signals AFAIK. Yes, it's definitely DTMF....it even has "*" and "#" buttons either side of the "0", unlike any other Trimphones I've seen in the wild. According to the label on the bottom of the broken one, it was supplied by BT rather than the GPO. There's nothing indicating any date of supply or manufacture though. A friend got these phones for me around about 1989/90. He was on an industrial placement at Kidsgrove I think (working for either ICL or STC) and came across an entire skip full of the things next to an office block which was being refurbished. I guess they were used on an internal exchange? BTW Any idea when BT started "DTMF enabling" exchanges (presumably that came in with "System X")? I've got a vague recollection of requesting tone dialling around 1988 give or take a year, and having to have my number changed since only one of the five exchanges covering this area at the time was a System X exchange. > There may have neen an N-diagram for it (there's an archive of >these on the web -- do a google search for 'N-diagram').... Thanks, I'll go take a look. > I didn't think the ringer was that complicatated. Can't you trace >out the schematic? Well, I'm not sure it's just the ringer....when the phone was plugged into the line and someone called the (trim)phone on my extension would completely fail to ring. Also, the exchange would send them a single ring tone, then a few seconds of silence (as if the call had been answered), then another single ring....etc.... I suppose I should sit down and trace out the circuits. Most of the "complicated" stuff seems to be on the keypad (the DTMF encoder), the rest looks fairly straightforward. Just a matter of getting up the enthusiasm, not easy at the moment as I'm still fighting off the effects of coming off anti-depressants.... :-( TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jul 24 20:22:18 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:22:18 +0100 Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) References: Message-ID: <007a01c7ce5a$3e2b1da0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > As expected, while you get an overall schematics of the phone, >there are no internal schematics for the dialer (keypad/DTMF >econder) or ringer. May be some help, though. On the contrary, that looks like exactly what I was looking for (unless the fault is in the keypad unit, LOL). Many thanks. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jul 24 21:46:41 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:46:41 +0100 Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) References: Message-ID: <007d01c7ce66$08b98330$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....no internal schematics for the dialer (keypad/DTMF econder) >or ringer. Actually, I just spotted what you mean about the ringer....I'd forgotten it was a complete circuit board on it's own. It looks pretty simple though, only a handful of components (a transformer, four or six diodes, two BC108Bs and a few resistors/caps). Might have a bash at debugging it tomorrow afternoon. That diagram is still darn useful though, it lets me make sense of the rats nest of wires on the main board. TTFN - Pete. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jul 24 23:11:22 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:11:22 -0600 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A6CD6A.1030807@brutman.com> I think I found the programming specs: http://codeninja.de/lpfk/ According to that page, it speaks 9600 N81 and the input and output sequences are trivial. I have two samples .. both are behaving the same way, which is to me 'non-functional'. I thought I had a cabling goof so I started with the multi-meter and started tracing things. To make a long story short, I think the cabling is fine, and the units are just goofy. (Although they are both goofy in the same way, so I suspect something else is wrong.) I can't get any output from the units - not even noise. Sridhar - what position is the switch on the backside supposed to be? I think it is supposed to be set to the 'lightening bolt', and that the other symbol means loopback. Is yours connected via a serial style cable, or the round DIN connector to a graphics input feature adapter? If it is serial, would you mind connecting it to a PC comm port, setting the port to 9600 N81 (no flow control), and seeing if you can get some output when a key is pressed? Glen - the HP button box you describe is amazingly similar, but the case is a bit different. Those buttons don't look like they have lights ... the IBM version does, and the lights are controllable from the host machine. Mike From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 22:51:30 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:51:30 -0700 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <46A6CD6A.1030807@brutman.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> <46A6CD6A.1030807@brutman.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90707242051rd7dc29elc8c4b611d8346efc@mail.gmail.com> On 7/24/07, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I think I found the programming specs: > > http://codeninja.de/lpfk/ > > Glen - the HP button box you describe is amazingly similar, but the case > is a bit different. Those buttons don't look like they have lights ... > the IBM version does, and the lights are controllable from the host > machine. > Mike, the HP A4363A button box does have LED indicators in each button and does have the same button layout as IBM button box shown in the webpage you referenced. It also does have an LEDs on command, which is 0x75 followed by 4 button mask bytes. The other commands for the HP A4363A button box are: Reset - 0x20 Setype - 0x71 followed by 4 button mask bytes. A clear mask bit means report press only, a set mask bit means report press & release. Autosend - 0x73 followed by 4 button mask bytes. A clear mask bit means that button is ignored. According to the webpage you referenced the IBM button box mask bytes are two hex characters per byte, while from the HP documentation it appears the mask bytes are raw binary byte values. -Glen From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 23:27:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:27:47 -0400 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90707242051rd7dc29elc8c4b611d8346efc@mail.gmail.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> <46A6CD6A.1030807@brutman.com> <1e1fc3e90707242051rd7dc29elc8c4b611d8346efc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/24/07, Glen Slick wrote: > Mike, the HP A4363A button box does have LED indicators in each button > and does have the same button layout as IBM button box shown in the > webpage you referenced... Since I find odd input devices fascinating, I've been following this thread even though I don't happen to own anything like it (but I'll certainly be keeping an eye out for things like this in the future). One question I do have is how one would typically use a light-up matrix keyboard on a 3D workstation. I know how dialboxes are used, but how would keyboards like this be used? Thanks for clearing up the mystery, -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 00:04:53 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:04:53 -0700 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> <46A6CD6A.1030807@brutman.com> <1e1fc3e90707242051rd7dc29elc8c4b611d8346efc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90707242204h58396876id840c644df791576@mail.gmail.com> On 7/24/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Since I find odd input devices fascinating, I've been following this > thread even though I don't happen to own anything like it (but I'll > certainly be keeping an eye out for things like this in the future). > One question I do have is how one would typically use a light-up > matrix keyboard on a 3D workstation. I know how dialboxes are used, > but how would keyboards like this be used? > > Thanks for clearing up the mystery, > > -ethan I have never used the HP button and dial boxes. I picked them up at Boeing Surplus a couple of years back just because they looked cool and I thought I might find something interesting to do with them some day as they are simple serial interface devices. I imagine the button box might be used to select different functions or modes in some CAD software running on an HP-UX workstation. Seems like CAD software would likely have large tool palettes that might be easier or quicker to select using a button box than a mouse or normal keyboard. I got a manual for the button box, but not the dial box. It came with a DDS tape labeled: Dial & Button Box Driver for A4362A & A4363A P/N A4362-10001 REV A.01.00 HP 9000 SERIES 700 HP-UX. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 00:41:26 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:41:26 -0400 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <46A6CD6A.1030807@brutman.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> <46A6CD6A.1030807@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46A6E286.3080700@gmail.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Sridhar - what position is the switch on the backside supposed to be? I > think it is supposed to be set to the 'lightening bolt', and that the > other symbol means loopback. I'll check when I get to work tomorrow. > Is yours connected via a serial style cable, or the round DIN connector > to a graphics input feature adapter? If it is serial, would you mind > connecting it to a PC comm port, setting the port to 9600 N81 (no flow > control), and seeing if you can get some output when a key is pressed? Mine is connected via a miniDIN cable to a graphics input adapter. I don't have a cable to hook it to a regular serial port at the moment, but I'll see what I can bodge up. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 25 03:21:48 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:21:48 +0100 Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) In-Reply-To: <007301c7ce59$6f905690$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <007301c7ce59$6f905690$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46A7081C.1080800@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/07/2007 02:16, Ensor wrote: > BTW Any idea when BT started "DTMF enabling" exchanges (presumably that > came in with "System X")? I've got a vague recollection of requesting > tone dialling around 1988 give or take a year, and having to have my > number changed since only one of the five exchanges covering this area > at the time was a System X exchange. I remember a colleague in Edinburgh getting a cordless that was DTMF about 1985, and it worked on our exchange then. That's the earliest I recall, but I don't know how long it might have worked for, before that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jul 25 07:02:24 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:02:24 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 Message-ID: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Guys, A few days back I posted ImageDisk 1.17 to the site, and it's just been reported (and confirmed) that it had a bug which causes it to write images incorrectly (fortunately it appears to read them correctly). I've corrected the problem and updated the package - if you have downloaded 1.17 before today, please download it again. I've also restored Imagedisk 1.16 to the site, listing it as the last known stable release, so that people won't be left hanging if (when) something like this happens again. I apologize for the inconvienence - I've been sitting on 1.17 for a few months - there were substantial changes made to the read/write disk functions accomodate the ability to record the data from bad sectors, and I knew there was a strong possibility of problems. I made these changes at the request of a member of this list who just "had to have them" right away. Took me a fair bit time to make the changes, which also involved research, pestering Chuck, Allison and others and lots of trial and error to figure out what I could and could not do with the 765FDC and bad sectors. This also required additions to the image file format, and therefore update to all of the utilities which manipulate them - During this time I had several correspondances with the individual who had requested the changes, and he promised me that if I made them, he would test it thoroughly, make extensive use of it (iirc several hundred disks to process) and give me a full report of any problems etc. that were encountered before I released the software for mass consumption. So I delivered the new software to him (early may), and he immediately fell silent. Contacted him a week later, and was told that he hadn't had time to look at it, but would let me know when he got around to it.... Now several months have gone by and not a peep from him. So... I posted it anyway (my bad), and of course there was a problem. I've corrected it, but due to the number of changes required for this update, it could still benefit from some outside testing (any volenteers?) It's annoying to invest time to do someone a favor (that they asked for) only to find out that they consider their own time too valuable to follow up their part - I'm sure Chuck will tell me that this is one of the reasons he finally told people to shove Teledisk beyond the reach of solar illumination... If anyone can help check out 1.17, that would be much appreciated. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From wizard at voyager.net Wed Jul 25 09:53:27 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:53:27 -0400 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1185375207.16124.5.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Wed, 2007-07-25 at 07:02 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > A few days back I posted ImageDisk 1.17 to the site, and it's just > been reported (and confirmed) that it had a bug which causes it to > write images incorrectly (fortunately it appears to read them > correctly). > > I've corrected the problem and updated the package - if you have > downloaded 1.17 before today, please download it again. As a measure to avoid confusion, I would suggest calling the repaired version 1.18... It's not like you have to pay for the numbers... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe warren at databasics.us From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jul 25 12:43:00 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:43:00 -0400 Subject: tek dos/50 floppy file system format? Message-ID: <200707251743.l6PHh0H5022329@mwave.heeltoe.com> Does anyone have any information on the directory structure of a Tektronix DOS/50 floppy? I'll figure it out by hand, but I thought I'd ask in case someone else has already done it. -brad From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 25 12:42:59 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:42:59 -0400 Subject: Apple Image Writer In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070724175946.10763640@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070724175946.10763640@localhost> Message-ID: <200707251343.00052.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 24 July 2007 19:18, Tom Peters wrote: > I've got an Apple Image Writer dot-matrix printer to start with. It's the > older version, I think based on a C.Itoh design, or maybe the NEC P8023? > > It's serial interface only, and there's life left in the ribbon. I didn't > connect it to a computer but powered up holding the Form Feed button, it > prints a barber-pole test. > > It's model A9M0303, which is not the more widely available ImageWriter II. > It's the original. Yes, there were several different printers out there with basically the same guts in 'em. I had one at one point in time with a "DEC" brand on it, and what was interesting about that one was that when it printed a "*" character what you got was a five-pointed star. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 15:25:27 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <1185375207.16124.5.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> <1185375207.16124.5.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <20070725132301.B65922@shell.lmi.net> > > I've corrected the problem and updated the package - if you have > > downloaded 1.17 before today, please download it again. On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Warren Wolfe wrote: > As a measure to avoid confusion, I would suggest calling the > repaired version 1.18... It's not like you have to pay for the > numbers... . . . or 1.171 XenoCopy-PC always had three digits to the right of the period. The basic idea was to NEVER EVER have two different files with the same ID number. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 25 16:19:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:19:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....) In-Reply-To: <007301c7ce59$6f905690$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jul 25, 7 02:16:30 am Message-ID: > > There may have neen an N-diagram for it (there's an archive of > >these on the web -- do a google search for 'N-diagram').... > > Thanks, I'll go take a look. I assume you now have this (im that I posted the details the other day). > I suppose I should sit down and trace out the circuits. Most of the > "complicated" stuff seems to be on the keypad (the DTMF encoder), the rest > looks fairly straightforward. Most 'phones since the 806 have essentially rhe same cirucit (apart from things like the dialer -- is it a mechancial dial, a pulse-dialing keypad [1] or a DTMF keypad). Be warned that while there aren't many components in said circuit, it is not at all easy to understand. Some components do 2 or 3 jobs at different times(!). [1] IIRC that keypad, at least the GPO vaesion, often has a NiCd battery connected to it to keep it alive during dailing. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 25 16:52:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:52:19 -0700 Subject: Read error correction in software Message-ID: <46A763A3.32475.1B6149DF@cclist.sydex.com> A little background on the subject... I'm working with a number of old 100 TPI 5.25" HS diskettes and a catweasel to read them. The data encoding is plain MFM and thus far, the whole project involving some 27-year old media is going pretty well, considering the age and condition of the media. Occasionally, I'll pick up a data error (no big surprise). According to what I've been able to determine from the CW output, most of the errors involve extraneous noise in the read output. In other words, if the normal pulse timings for MFM are 0.5 1.0 and 1.5 cell-time units, a pulse will sometimes be seen that occurs less than 0.25 time unit from the previous one. The CW output is essentially a bunch of 7 bit numbers that express the number of clocks seen since the last pulse was read. My original thought was to ignore each noise pulse by adding its clock-count value to that of the next pulse that comes along. In other words, if I get a stream of pulses with clock counts of, say, 10 20 30 20 5 15 10..., I'd skip the 5 pulse and convert the 15 to a 20. This doesn't work well. While it's better than acually counting the extraneous pulse as a data pulse, much better results are obtained if the pulse is simply ignored and the next pulse clock-count is used as- is without "correction". Does anyone know why this would be? I can't rationalize it. Cheers, Chuck From fu3.org at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 18:10:19 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 01:10:19 +0200 Subject: broadcast automation yahoo group In-Reply-To: References: <345255.47607.qm@web30513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0707251610g31eb5affkc07eda63bb167fea@mail.gmail.com> 2007/7/23, Dave Caroline : > Great idea but not on yahoo please > I believe this is what http://groups.google.com/ could be used for. From Hollandia at ccountry.net Wed Jul 25 21:15:26 2007 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:15:26 -0700 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface Message-ID: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Does anyone make an interface card that will permit a "thumb drive" to be addressed by the classic machines? Some time ago, I had a sound card on my Packard-Bell 486SX20 machine. It plugged into the motherboard. There was no specific provision for it in the BIOS, but the CD-ROM connected to it acted like a "D" drive from Windows 3.1. I don't remember ever trying to access it from DOS, though. Perhaps, instead of being plugged into the motherboard, this interface could have the hard drive's ribbon cable plugged into it. Does anyone make such a beast? From mikelee at tdh.com Wed Jul 25 21:41:47 2007 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:41:47 -0500 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <46A809EB.90005@tdh.com> The CD-ROM connector on sound cards etc you speak about was for particular CD-ROMs only. It was not IDE. A little search on the web found the pinouts for a Mitsumi one as an example. There were standalone cards for CD-ROM drives as well as a lot of the early sound cards integrated some type of CD-ROM connector, eventually moving to an additional IDE. Rather than a thumbdrive or trying to figure out getting USB on an old computer, it's easier to use Compactflash cards and an IDE to CF adapter you can buy everywhere really cheap. Great reuse for the smaller camera memory CF cards laying around everywhere too. I've done this a bunch with older systems, actually last using it to backup data from an old 200Mb hard drive in an old 386. "From http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/oth/mitsumi.txt" I'm making the assumption that this is a Mitsumi Drive. I have only three choices Mitsumi, Panasonic and Sony. Please note, this is NOT an IDE (ATA) interface. All even number pins 2 through 40 are GND. The remaining pins are as follows: Pin Signal 1 Address bit 0 3 Address bit 1 5 No Connection 7 No Connection 9 No Connection 11 No Connection 13 Interrupt 15 Data Request for DMA 17 Data acknowledge for DMA 19 Read enable 21 Write enable 23 Bus enable 25 Data bit 0 27 Data bit 1 29 Data bit 2 31 Data bit 3 33 Data bit 4 35 Data bit 5 37 Data bit 6 "" 39 Data bit 7 Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > Does anyone make an interface card that will permit a "thumb drive" to be > addressed by the classic machines? > > Some time ago, I had a sound card on my Packard-Bell 486SX20 machine. It > plugged into the motherboard. There was no specific provision for it in the > BIOS, but the CD-ROM connected to it acted like a "D" drive from Windows > 3.1. I don't remember ever trying to access it from DOS, though. > > Perhaps, instead of being plugged into the motherboard, this interface could > have the hard drive's ribbon cable plugged into it. > > Does anyone make such a beast? > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 25 22:43:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:43:22 -0700 Subject: Read error correction in software In-Reply-To: <46A763A3.32475.1B6149DF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >A little background on the subject... > >I'm working with a number of old 100 TPI 5.25" HS diskettes and a >catweasel to read them. The data encoding is plain MFM and thus far, >the whole project involving some 27-year old media is going pretty >well, considering the age and condition of the media. > >Occasionally, I'll pick up a data error (no big surprise). According >to what I've been able to determine from the CW output, most of the >errors involve extraneous noise in the read output. In other words, >if the normal pulse timings for MFM are 0.5 1.0 and 1.5 cell-time >units, a pulse will sometimes be seen that occurs less than 0.25 time >unit from the previous one. > >The CW output is essentially a bunch of 7 bit numbers that express >the number of clocks seen since the last pulse was read. > >My original thought was to ignore each noise pulse by adding its >clock-count value to that of the next pulse that comes along. In >other words, if I get a stream of pulses with clock counts of, say, >10 20 30 20 5 15 10..., I'd skip the 5 pulse and convert the 15 to a >20. > >This doesn't work well. While it's better than acually counting the >extraneous pulse as a data pulse, much better results are obtained if >the pulse is simply ignored and the next pulse clock-count is used as- >is without "correction". > >Does anyone know why this would be? I can't rationalize it. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi It might be better to use the CRC, since you know where in the data field the error was. The alignment of the CRC can be guessed at and several attempts made to see if the error location matches the location you know to be the error. If you take the calculated crc with the recorded crc, it can be played backwards. When you get close, the end numbers in your CRC back calculator will be zeros and the bits in the middle will be the error mask. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 25 22:47:51 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:47:51 -0700 Subject: NE-2 pricing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was looking at Mouser catalog and noticed that they had A1A NE-2's for less then 30 cents each in 100's. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!? http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 25 23:16:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:16:34 -0700 Subject: Read error correction in software In-Reply-To: References: <46A763A3.32475.1B6149DF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46A7BDB2.16309.1CC11360@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jul 2007 at 20:43, dwight elvey wrote: > If you take the calculated crc with the recorded crc, it can be > played backwards. When you get close, the end numbers in your > CRC back calculator will be zeros and the bits in the middle will > be the error mask. I'd thought of that, but most of the error sectors have more than a a single error (the content is mostly ASCII, so single bit errors are easy to correct by inspection). Multiple MFM errors, what with bit and clock/data phase shifting etc. just don't seem to be amenable to that sort of approach. Maybe I'm missing something... Cheers, Chuck From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Jul 26 02:13:14 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:13:14 +0100 Subject: broadcast automation yahoo group In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0707251610g31eb5affkc07eda63bb167fea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 26/7/07 00:10, "from at fu3.org" wrote: > I believe this is what http://groups.google.com/ could be used for. Just an interface to / archive of USENET, surely? -Austin. From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 02:23:01 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:23:01 +0200 Subject: broadcast automation yahoo group In-Reply-To: References: <310f50ab0707251610g31eb5affkc07eda63bb167fea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0707260023l45657e9cy108e1f9af5124582@mail.gmail.com> 2007/7/26, Austin Pass : > On 26/7/07 00:10, "from at fu3.org" wrote: > > > I believe this is what http://groups.google.com/ could be used for. > > Just an interface to / archive of USENET, surely? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups Yeah, that seems part of their idea, but they do their own group-thing, too, and I'm sure there are mixed feelings about either services, especially by purists / "Los Originalez". ;) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 26 08:40:33 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 06:40:33 -0700 Subject: Read error correction in software In-Reply-To: <46A7BDB2.16309.1CC11360@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 25 Jul 2007 at 20:43, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > If you take the calculated crc with the recorded crc, it can be > > played backwards. When you get close, the end numbers in your > > CRC back calculator will be zeros and the bits in the middle will > > be the error mask. > >I'd thought of that, but most of the error sectors have more than a a >single error (the content is mostly ASCII, so single bit errors are >easy to correct by inspection). Multiple MFM errors, what with bit >and clock/data phase shifting etc. just don't seem to be amenable to >that sort of approach. Maybe I'm missing something... > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Chuck Your right, not too good on multiple errors. You might be looking at a drive issue. Have you tried taking the disk out and putting them back in after shifting them in the envelope? ( I'm assuming they're floppies ) Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!? http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Jul 26 10:43:35 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:43:35 +0100 Subject: broadcast automation yahoo group In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0707260023l45657e9cy108e1f9af5124582@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 26/7/07 08:23, "from at fu3.org" wrote: > Yeah, that seems part of their idea, but they do their own > group-thing, too, and I'm sure there are mixed feelings about either > services, especially by purists / "Los Originalez". ;) Quite right you are, too! I'd only ever seen it offer up results from USENET - I guess that's a product of my searches only ever targeting obscure pre-'98 hardware and software! -Austin. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jul 26 10:42:55 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:42:55 -0400 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: <46A809EB.90005@tdh.com> References: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <46A809EB.90005@tdh.com> Message-ID: <200707261142.55497.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 25 July 2007 22:41, Michael Lee wrote: > The CD-ROM connector on sound cards etc you speak about was for > particular CD-ROMs only. It was not IDE. A little search on the web > found the pinouts for a Mitsumi one as an example. There were > standalone cards for CD-ROM drives as well as a lot of the early sound > cards integrated some type of CD-ROM connector, eventually moving to an > additional IDE. > > Rather than a thumbdrive or trying to figure out getting USB on an old > computer, it's easier to use Compactflash cards and an IDE to CF adapter > you can buy everywhere really cheap. Great reuse for the smaller camera > memory CF cards laying around everywhere too. I've done this a bunch > with older systems, actually last using it to backup data from an old > 200Mb hard drive in an old 386. > > > > "From http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/oth/mitsumi.txt" > I'm making the assumption that this is a Mitsumi Drive. I have only > three choices Mitsumi, Panasonic and Sony. Please note, this is NOT an > IDE (ATA) interface. I have some older sound cards around that feature these three connectors on them, and in addition have one (perhaps more?) cards that have _just_ those interface connectors, presumably on an ISA board, though I'd have to dig them out of the box to be sure. In case anybody can use such... Also around here someplace I have a CDROM drive and interface card that uses the old "Philips" (?) interface, that uses a 16-wire ribbon cable, if there's anyone who might have a use for that. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 26 11:24:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:24:08 -0700 Subject: Read error correction in software In-Reply-To: References: <46A7BDB2.16309.1CC11360@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46A86838.25066.1F5B2C3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jul 2007 at 6:40, dwight elvey wrote: > Your right, not too good on multiple errors. > You might be looking at a drive issue. Have you tried taking > the disk out and putting them back in after shifting them > in the envelope? ( I'm assuming they're floppies ) These are genuine read errors, not problems with the drive. Given the age and condition of the disks, I'm not surprised. 100 tpi floppies were never that reliable to begin with. No--my question relates to MFM error recovery techniques. Since my "data separator" is in software, I'm assuming I can do some clever things that I couildn't do with a "dumb" PLL data separator. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Thu Jul 26 11:33:30 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:33:30 +0100 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <581B36C7-CE9D-4DBF-B3B1-BEF8712B1FE7@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 26 Jul 2007, at 03:15, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > ... > Does anyone make an interface card that will permit a "thumb drive" > to be > addressed by the classic machines? I think the closest you're (easily) going to get is to buy a compact- flash card & USB cf-card reader. Placing the cf-card into the reader and plugging that into the USB port will cause it to appear & behave like a "thumb drive" on a modern PC. CF cards have a substantially-EIDE interface and you can cheaply get an adaptor - I think it's just a pin convertor - that allows this to be plugged into a standard EIDE cable. EIDE was, I'm sure, standard on my first Pentium, so hopefully it will work with your 486, too?? Stroller. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 11:37:57 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:37:57 -0400 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: <200707261142.55497.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <46A809EB.90005@tdh.com> <200707261142.55497.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e0707260937v1acdf27bk62a82d132c7280e7@mail.gmail.com> I remember at one time I found a company making a device which allowed you to access files on an attached USB mass storage device (thumb drive, hard drive etc) from anything with a serial (async or spi) interface - it would even do the filesystem crunching for you (FAT only). Intended for embedded applications (such as data loggers) but I thought it'd be great for old computers... Unfortunately, a quick google did not turn up the device, and I can't remember the name (otherwise it'd be tooo easy of course!) I found that in general todays embedded chips have features very similar to what used to be in full-sized home computers - thus all the peripherals for those interface quite nicely to the old stuff! (well, except for some of the 3.3V/5V issues...) Joe. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 11:43:01 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:43:01 -0400 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0707260937v1acdf27bk62a82d132c7280e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <46A809EB.90005@tdh.com> <200707261142.55497.rtellason@verizon.net> <4affc5e0707260937v1acdf27bk62a82d132c7280e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0707260943p2315b5b9h347d9b84f5cc4161@mail.gmail.com> On 26/07/07, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I remember at one time I found a company making a device which allowed > you to access files on an attached USB mass storage device (thumb > drive, hard drive etc) from anything with a serial (async or spi) > interface - it would even do the filesystem crunching for you (FAT > only). Intended for embedded applications (such as data loggers) but > I thought it'd be great for old computers... > > Unfortunately, a quick google did not turn up the device, and I can't > remember the name (otherwise it'd be tooo easy of course!) Never mind that, I did find it again... http://www.vinculum.com/prd_vdrive1.html I think Vinculum is somehow related to FTDI. Joe. From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu Jul 26 12:05:35 2007 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:05:35 -0600 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <200707251702.l6PH1OvE099286@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707251702.l6PH1OvE099286@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46A8D45F.4050201@rogerwilco.org> Dave Dunfield said: > A few days back I posted ImageDisk 1.17 to the site, and it's just > been reported (and confirmed) that it had a bug which causes it to > write images incorrectly (fortunately it appears to read them > correctly). > > I've corrected the problem and updated the package - if you have > downloaded 1.17 before today, please download it again. > > I've also restored Imagedisk 1.16 to the site, listing it as the > last known stable release, so that people won't be left hanging if > (when) something like this happens again. > > ...snip... > > It's annoying to invest time to do someone a favor (that they asked for) only > to find out that they consider their own time too valuable to follow up their > part - I'm sure Chuck will tell me that this is one of the reasons he finally > told people to shove Teledisk beyond the reach of solar illumination... > > > If anyone can help check out 1.17, that would be much appreciated. I for one am mighty grateful for the actual usefulness of IMageDisk and want to just through my .02 cents into the hat. It's a shame that your recent 'extra' efforts weren't/aren't properly acknowledged, and that the follow-through from the other side hasn't +happened. Still, please regard me as an appreciative user of IMageDisk. In recent months, I have processed nearly 450 floppies from my old MS-DOS days, as well as a set of CP/M and other development tools for my quite obscure, but not particularly noteworthy, Novell Data Systems 2010, a Z80A-based machine. I was becoming very, very nervous about the stability of those old NDS 2010 diskettes (not used since c.1982), and breathed a huge sigh of relief when I got all of those floppies imaged and burned to CD-ROM. Unfortunately, I've just finished my 'imaging project' using IMD 1.16, so I don't have much to test with 1.17. Still, my hand is extended to you for producing, *and maintaining*, such a useful tool for vintage collectors. Many thanks! - Jared From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 26 12:47:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:47:31 -0700 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? Message-ID: <46A87BC3.24285.1FA78BA1@cclist.sydex.com> There's been a lot of chatter about the AMD 2901 series bit-slice. Does anyone recall any system that employed the MMI 6701 series? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 26 14:50:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:50:27 -0700 Subject: Read error correction in software In-Reply-To: References: <46A7BDB2.16309.1CC11360@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46A89893.30403.2018160B@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jul 2007 at 6:40, dwight elvey wrote: > Your right, not too good on multiple errors. Actually, on MFM, not even that good for single errors. Recall that the CRC on a 256-byte sector is the 257th and 258th byte of the sector. So, if an MFM error throws the data stream off, you don't even get a valid CRC to work with. And MFM data errors can result in data shifting and clock data "swapping". It might have been a whole 'nother story had the convention been that the CRC precedes the data. I've got some ideas about simulating a PLL-type clock in my routines developing bit cell "windows" instead of relying on the pulse-to- pulse spacing. The latter, while being very adaptable to ISV-type errors, is lousy for recovery of regular data errors. I'll keep the list posted, if anyone's interested. Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 26 15:22:10 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:22:10 -0700 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: <46A809EB.90005@tdh.com> References: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <46A809EB.90005@tdh.com> Message-ID: On 7/25/07, Michael Lee wrote: > The CD-ROM connector on sound cards etc you speak about was for > particular CD-ROMs only. It was not IDE. That, of course, depends upon the sound card. Many ISA sound cards included places to solder in 4 connectors, although usually only one was populated. I have an Ensoniq card that has the IDE connector soldered in, and the Mitsumi, Sony, and Panasonic connectors missing. I've also got a sound card with built in SCSI. Later sound cards often dropped everything but IDE. I've still got my single speed Mitsumi drive with its stand alone controller installed in a 386 machine. Eric From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 26 14:31:12 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:31:12 -0400 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? Message-ID: <0JLS007STWUTZ5A7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:47:31 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >There's been a lot of chatter about the AMD 2901 series bit-slice. >Does anyone recall any system that employed the MMI 6701 series? > >Cheers, >Chuck CM2000, 2100 and CM2100 CM stands for Cininatti Millichron a 16bit Mini, used one around 73-74. There were others but cant recall which. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 26 18:22:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:22:04 -0700 Subject: AVAILABLE: Diable 1610 Hytype DW printer Message-ID: <46A8CA2C.25348.20D9D2D4@cclist.sydex.com> I went ahead and picked up the Diablo 1610 printer from the local party here who was trying to find a home for it. Now I want to give it a home... I checked it out--it works just fine and includes several typewheels (all various flavors of Courier) and ribbons as well as the operator's manual. Includes forms tractor. In pretty good condition for a 30 year old printer. This is an RO (no keyboard) model in charcoal color skins. Serial interface 110-300 baud w no handshake; 1200 using ETX/ACK. Free for shipping from Eugene, OR. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 26 18:48:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wange PC in Windsor, Ontario Message-ID: <857978.62163.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-1984-WANG-COMPLETE-PC-XC3-2 -SYSTEM-WORKING_W0QQitemZ220133233591QQihZ012QQ categoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I do not recommend exercising the b-i-n option though, despite the promise of free shipping. oi ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 26 18:36:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:36:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> from "Hollandia@ccountry.net" at Jul 25, 7 07:15:26 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone make an interface card that will permit a "thumb drive" to be > addressed by the classic machines? > > Some time ago, I had a sound card on my Packard-Bell 486SX20 machine. It > plugged into the motherboard. There was no specific provision for it in the > BIOS, but the CD-ROM connected to it acted like a "D" drive from Windows > 3.1. I don't remember ever trying to access it from DOS, though. Well, it would have needed a device driver, and the Microsoft CD-ROM extensions, but I can't see why it wouldn't ahve worked. I have a Philips CD-ROM drive (in an external unit that looks like an audio CD player, and in fact _is_ a modified audio CD player) which has its own custom interface card and device driver, and that works this way. > Perhaps, instead of being plugged into the motherboard, this interface could > have the hard drive's ribbon cable plugged into it. I doubt it wa sa snadard IDE interface, there were some custom CD-ROM interfaces thast went over 40 pin ribbon cables too. > Does anyone make such a beast? I am not sure what you are asking for. If you are asking for a card that lets you connect an IDE hard drive to an ISA slot, then they exist. I am using one in this machine right now. I you are asking for some device to use more modern solid state flash memory with older mahcines, then there are a couple of solutions that spring to mind. The first is that IIRC, CF cards have an interface which is very similar to an IDE drive, so if you've got a way of linking the latter to your classic, it should be possible to use the former. The other is that I remmeber seeing adverts in Elektor magazine for a device so use USB flash memory sticks with microcontrollers. IIRC it was called something like 'Vinculum', and looked to be a panel mounting module with an IDE socket on it that you pluged the flash memory stick into. The interface to the microcontroller was SPI or something equally simple, and it should be possible to bit-bang that on most classic machines. I am not sure of the higher level bits of the protocol, but presumanly it's documenented, otherwise you'd not be able to use this thing with microcontrollers either. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 26 19:16:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Victor Sirius/9000 Monitor In-Reply-To: <004501c7cb2c$95c195c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <769341.73846.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > I've heard of the "Vicki", but not the "Serie". I believe Serie is some sort of girl's name. Since the UK version of the Vic9000 was called the Sirius...well you can figure out the rest. I wasn't aware the Vicki was available in the UK. > > Very very hard to find. > > You're not kidding there, in all the time I've been > collecting I've never > seen a single one "in the wild". You never never know what's hiding in someone's closet. It's a matter of making that party aware of your interest. They're out there... I found one on eBay recently. Heard from someone in Connecticut who has one. But alas he's not yet willing to sell *snifful*. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 19:29:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:29:57 -0500 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: On 7/26/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Does anyone make an interface card that will permit a "thumb drive" to be > > addressed by the classic machines? > > The other is that I remmeber seeing adverts in Elektor magazine for a > device so use USB flash memory sticks with microcontrollers. IIRC it was > called something like 'Vinculum', and looked to be a panel mounting > module with an IDE socket on it that you pluged the flash memory stick > into. The one that gives you a UART or SPI interface to a FAT-formatted USB thumb drive is at http://www.vinculum.com/prd_vdrive1.html >From their online store, looks to be about 14 quid. Dunno about the IDE socket, though. > The interface to the microcontroller was SPI or something equally > simple, and it should be possible to bit-bang that on most classic > machines. I am not sure of the higher level bits of the protocol, but > presumanly it's documenented... It's documented and meant to attach to microcontrollers. One could, I think, rather easily attach one to a 1980s micro as well. I haven't used one, but the docs seem to suggest it's easy to use. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 26 19:34:05 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:34:05 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <46A0EE4E.29324.2270BBA@cclist.sydex.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <46A3EAFC.30106@saw.net> Message-ID: <46A93D7D.1040809@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > But then, tubes are in the same boat. They will all go gassy eventually... Well just suck all the air out of them again. :) > -- > Will Other than 300B and a few other classic^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpro-audio tubes most are $10 or less. A few people are trying to re-vacume some very old picture tubes for some very early TV-Sets. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 26 23:39:49 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:39:49 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A93D7D.1040809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >From: woodelf > >William Donzelli wrote: > >>But then, tubes are in the same boat. They will all go gassy eventually... >Well just suck all the air out of them again. :) >>-- >>Will >---snip--- Hi I have soem tubes made in the 1920's that still have a good vacuum. How much longer should I wait. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 26 23:50:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:50:07 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <46A93D7D.1040809@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: <46A9170F.22987.220624A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jul 2007 at 21:39, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I have soem tubes made in the 1920's that still have a > good vacuum. How much longer should I wait. > Dwight Isn't that the whole idea behind a getter? Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 26 23:55:05 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:55:05 -0700 Subject: Read error correction in software In-Reply-To: <46A89893.30403.2018160B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" >>On 26 Jul 2007 at 6:40, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Your right, not too good on multiple errors. > >Actually, on MFM, not even that good for single errors. Recall that >the CRC on a 256-byte sector is the 257th and 258th byte of the >sector. So, if an MFM error throws the data stream off, you don't >even get a valid CRC to work with. And MFM data errors can result in >data shifting and clock data "swapping". It might have been a whole >'nother story had the convention been that the CRC precedes the data. > Hi I know what you mean about putting it first. Still, you can experiment with clock and data shifts until you find a CRC that give an error in the 256 byte data field. If it is a single burst error, odds are it will appear in the data field. If there are more than one error or the CRC is not aligned correctly, the odds are that it will never get the zeros at both ends. I don't recall the burst size for the 16 bit CRC but I thing it is 6 or 7 bits. I recall that the normal 32 bit CRC that is used for communications was a 12 bit burst. In any case, one could write a program to try different combinations of clock and data shifting and walking the CRC backwards. If it finds a combination that works, your job is that much easier. I used a similar program several years ago to recover data from tapes that had been damaged. Most was BASIC programs so it was relatively easy to check. Still, it was compressed BASIC. The tapes were manchester encoded. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 26 23:59:52 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:59:52 -0700 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? In-Reply-To: <46A87BC3.24285.1FA78BA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >There's been a lot of chatter about the AMD 2901 series bit-slice. >Does anyone recall any system that employed the MMI 6701 series? > >Cheers, >Chuck > I'm only familiar with the 2901 and 3000. I've looked at the signetics 8X300 but that is more of a halfway between uController and bit slice. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 27 00:10:14 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 01:10:14 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200707270110.14977.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 27 July 2007 00:39, dwight elvey wrote: > >From: woodelf > > > >William Donzelli wrote: > >>But then, tubes are in the same boat. They will all go gassy > >> eventually... > > > >Well just suck all the air out of them again. :) > > > >>-- > >>Will > > > >---snip--- > > Hi > I have soem tubes made in the 1920's that still have a > good vacuum. How much longer should I wait. Just because a couple of tubes still work doesn't say anything, without counting the ones that have failed. I'm sure some ICs from today will still be working 80 years in the future, but it'll likewise be a very small percentage. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 27 00:12:12 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:12:12 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A9170F.22987.220624A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 26 Jul 2007 at 21:39, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi > > I have soem tubes made in the 1920's that still have a > > good vacuum. How much longer should I wait. > > Dwight > >Isn't that the whole idea behind a getter? > Yep, but you have to know these are lime getters. Not all that effective. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!? http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 27 00:47:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:47:36 -0700 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? In-Reply-To: References: <46A87BC3.24285.1FA78BA1@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46A92488.23917.223AC4C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jul 2007 at 21:59, dwight elvey wrote: > I'm only familiar with the 2901 and 3000. I've looked at the > signetics 8X300 but that is more of a halfway between uController > and bit slice. > Dwight MMI's 6701 was *very* close to the 2901. There was also Moto's 10800 ECL series and some early Fairchild (3800?) parts, as well as Intel's 3000 series (you can find that on the old MDS-800 8" floppy controllers). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 27 00:58:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:58:38 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707270110.14977.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <200707270110.14977.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46A9271E.13592.2244DF8A@cclist.sydex.com> William Donzelli wrote: > But then, tubes are in the same boat. They will all go gassy > eventually... Not if you're Chris Welkin, Planeteer and can build your own triodes from junked bits and pieces on the surface of the moon! (Does anyone remember that comic strip? That bit above was the subject of one of the episodes.) Did Welkin have a computer? Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 26 16:55:21 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:55:21 -0400 Subject: Read error correction in software Message-ID: <0JLT00B9U3J0HJV1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Read error correction in software > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:50:27 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 26 Jul 2007 at 6:40, dwight elvey wrote: > >> Your right, not too good on multiple errors. > >Actually, on MFM, not even that good for single errors. Recall that >the CRC on a 256-byte sector is the 257th and 258th byte of the >sector. So, if an MFM error throws the data stream off, you don't >even get a valid CRC to work with. And MFM data errors can result in >data shifting and clock data "swapping". It might have been a whole >'nother story had the convention been that the CRC precedes the data. > >I've got some ideas about simulating a PLL-type clock in my routines >developing bit cell "windows" instead of relying on the pulse-to- >pulse spacing. The latter, while being very adaptable to ISV-type >errors, is lousy for recovery of regular data errors. If you implement a software PLL the key function is in the face of a missing pulse you keep the current clock rate and clock in a zero or or one as needed to fill the stream. The usual analog PLL tend to have an idle rate and lacking a error signal it will either retain the current rate or hunt back to the center rate. Since in a corrstly set PLL the error rate and the centered rate are not widely seperated drift is rarely a factor short term. Allison From nerdware at ctgonline.org Thu Jul 26 17:33:00 2007 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:33:00 -0500 Subject: 5 boxes of magazines available - Pickup NW Indiana/Chicago only Message-ID: <46A9211C.3060201@ctgonline.org> Hello. I'm finally down to the end of my collection - all of the hardware has gone to good homes (except my 128k Mac and my Amigas. Love my Amigas.) I have 5-50lb boxes of Byte, going back to the '70's, as well as Information Age and probably a few Dr. Dobbs' thrown in somewhere. There are also a couple of boxes of miscellaneous books and documentation. I don't want to just pitch this stuff, but I also really don't want to go through the hassle of packing and shipping 300lbs of paper. I live in NW Indiana, about 45 minutes East of Chicago. First person to email me off-list (has to be off-list, since I unsubbed a while ago) who can come down in a fairly short amount of time and pick this stuff up gets it. I ask for nothing, except maybe to buy me lunch. If I don't hear from anyone by the end of next week, it's going in the trash. I hate to do that, but I need the space. Thanks! -- Paul Braun Valparaiso, IN "There's a fine line between stupid, and clever." - David St. Hubbins "Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon "The Fountain of Youth is a state of mind." - The Ides of March From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 02:35:51 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:35:51 -0500 Subject: 5 boxes of magazines available - Pickup NW Indiana/Chicago only In-Reply-To: <46A9211C.3060201@ctgonline.org> References: <46A9211C.3060201@ctgonline.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730707270035l40efee04g1613465a2eceeade@mail.gmail.com> Hi Paul - hopefully I'm not too late. I've got a growing Byte/Kilobaud/Info Age/etc collection that's got a few holes that need filling. I'd be happy to give your mags a home and redistribute the dupes to our local group (address in my sig if you want to sign up for our very low-volume list.) I'm in Palatine, IL (NW Chicago suburbs) but can probably come out most weekends, possibly including this one. Thanks! -jason -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 02:36:50 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:36:50 -0500 Subject: 5 boxes of magazines available - Pickup NW Indiana/Chicago only In-Reply-To: <46A9211C.3060201@ctgonline.org> References: <46A9211C.3060201@ctgonline.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730707270036g33d1a3f5t71288cbf095c3f08@mail.gmail.com> Grrr.....reply meant to go directly to Paul. Sorry about that. From cc at corti-net.de Fri Jul 27 03:50:17 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:50:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I've also restored Imagedisk 1.16 to the site, listing it as the > last known stable release, so that people won't be left hanging if > (when) something like this happens again. I like Imagedisk very much, I've switched over from TeleDisk for all new images I will make. Lately I've found a very nasty bugs in IMD 1.16 (at least with a secondary FDC, tested on two different machines of different speed with different FDC). Reading disks is mostly fine, but writing to a drive connected to a secondary FDC doesn't work reliably. The problem is that the drive won't step properly, i.e. sometimes it misses a step pulse which makes the written disk unusable. The same problem occurs e.g. with the clean head routine. I had a look on your source code and I think it's a timing issue. I've inserted a small delay ('delay(55);') into the seek routine (between line 998 and line 999 in version 1.16) and this solved all the problem. I think that the seek routine is called too early after having sent the previous command to the FDC although it shouldn't matter because wrfdc officially waits for the FDC to be ready before sending a byte. But apparently some (many? all?) FDCs appear to be in a ready state although they are not yet ready to do a seek... really weird. Christian From fu3.org at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 04:43:45 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:43:45 +0200 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707222118.15253.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <200707221458.16932.rtellason@verizon.net> <46A37398.29312.BFFB2DB@cclist.sydex.com> <200707222118.15253.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <310f50ab0707270243s5253749aw3243d254439bd5c1@mail.gmail.com> 2007/7/23, Roy J. Tellason : > We did a lot of c64 repairs way back when. When the machine sold for $595 as > it did at first, then a $60 repair bill made economic sense. When they sold > for only $99 (as they did later on), it was a tossup. Didn't the new C-64 look somewhat like the Amiga500/600's? -You could imagine they were less friendly for repairing in a hobbyist/repairman sense, any experiences there? From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Jul 27 07:11:40 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:11:40 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: References: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200707271115.l6RBF5qp028889@hosting.monisys.ca> > Lately I've found a very nasty bugs in IMD 1.16 (at least with a secondary > FDC, tested on two different machines of different speed with different > FDC). Reading disks is mostly fine, but writing to a drive connected to a > secondary FDC doesn't work reliably. The problem is that the drive won't > step properly, i.e. sometimes it misses a step pulse which makes the > written disk unusable. The same problem occurs e.g. with the clean head > routine. I had a look on your source code and I think it's a timing > issue. I've inserted a small delay ('delay(55);') into the seek routine > (between line 998 and line 999 in version 1.16) and this solved all the > problem. I think that the seek routine is called too early after having > sent the previous command to the FDC although it shouldn't matter because > wrfdc officially waits for the FDC to be ready before sending a byte. But > apparently some (many? all?) FDCs appear to be in a ready state although > they are not yet ready to do a seek... really weird. It's impossible to test every FDC (at least in a free project). This explaination doesn't make sense because the seek routine has a 55ms settleing delay at the end (which you can increase with the SD= option), and the clean- head routine has a 100ms delay between seeks, which makes a total of 150ms delay. There are no other intervening commands during "clean heads" - since seek() waits for seek complete, 150ms should be plenty of time for the controller to be ready for another command. This also does not explain why reading a disk would work, so I suspect there is some other factor involved here.. This is the first I've heard of this problem - if you have problems with ImageDisk, the best way to get it fixed correctly might be to work with me on it instead of posting "fixes" to public forums. But... thats what happens when you release source code. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Jul 27 07:14:22 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:14:22 -0500 Subject: info wanted on CompuPro 10 series Message-ID: <000001c7d047$ab48d140$176fa8c0@obie> I've been offered a couple "late model" CompuPro Systems - a 10+ and an MP310 - but I don't know anything about these "new" systems; all my experience was with the pure S100 stuff, from early Econoram through the 816 systems. Can anyone provide details on anything in the 10 series? Were these still based on S100 cards (though with switching power supplies?) or were they some sort of single-board attempt at survival? Thanks - Jack No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.22/922 - Release Date: 7/27/2007 6:08 AM From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 07:50:35 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:50:35 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A9170F.22987.220624A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46A93D7D.1040809@jetnet.ab.ca> <46A9170F.22987.220624A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Isn't that the whole idea behind a getter? The idea behind the getter is to clean up and gas that might be trapped in the metal elements during pumpdown. A getter is really not to clean up gases that sneak in thru the glass metal seals - the getters just are not that effective, and as any plumber will tell you, leaks only get bigger. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 27 08:35:06 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:35:06 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0707270243s5253749aw3243d254439bd5c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: "from at fu3.org" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available >Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:43:45 +0200 > >2007/7/23, Roy J. Tellason : > > We did a lot of c64 repairs way back when. When the machine sold for >$595 as > > it did at first, then a $60 repair bill made economic sense. When they >sold > > for only $99 (as they did later on), it was a tossup. > >Didn't the new C-64 look somewhat like the Amiga500/600's? -You could >imagine they were less friendly for repairing in a hobbyist/repairman >sense, any experiences there? _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 27 08:51:09 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:51:09 -0700 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 26 Jul 2007 at 21:59, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I'm only familiar with the 2901 and 3000. I've looked at the > > signetics 8X300 but that is more of a halfway between uController > > and bit slice. > > Dwight > >MMI's 6701 was *very* close to the 2901. There was also Moto's 10800 >ECL series and some early Fairchild (3800?) parts, as well as Intel's >3000 series (you can find that on the old MDS-800 8" floppy >controllers). > Hi When I worked at Intel, I was responsible for test of the analog board that went with the 3000 series controller board. It seemed that even at the time, most of the engineers were only digital and something like a PLL or balanced mixer were beyond them. I did find a bug on the controller cards. It seems that there was a race. It was on one of the lines from the ROMs that controlled one of the states. The problem was that the newer ROMs were getting too fast and the outputs were changing too quickly. I don't recall what was done to fix that but I thought it was interesting. I believe they added a little more delay to one of the clocks. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 27 10:32:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:32:44 -0700 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46A9ADAC.4879.24527AB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jul 2007 at 6:51, dwight elvey wrote: > When I worked at Intel, I was responsible for test of the analog board > that went with the 3000 series controller board. > It seemed that even at the time, most of the engineers were > only digital and something like a PLL or balanced mixer were > beyond them. One thing I recall about the MDS floppy controller boards is that they ran hot as a two-buck pistol. That was probably true of most of the bit-slice stuff of the time. Around that time, I'd heard something concerning the Intel 8272 (the 8271 was apparently a horrible botch) FDC that I've long wondered was true or not. I'd heard that Intel started development on the 8272, but couldn't quite pull it off, and traded the basic design to NEC in exchange for NEC's graphics controller. NEC completed the design as the uPD 765 and licensed it back to Intel. Is there the slightest grain of truth to this? The 765/8272 in any case was too late for our own development. Like a lot of other outfits, we went with the gang on Red Hill Road for FDCs. Cheers, Chuck From nerdware at ctgonline.org Fri Jul 27 07:47:44 2007 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:47:44 -0500 Subject: Magazines taken! Message-ID: <46A9E970.7040808@ctgonline.org> Thank you. -- Paul Braun Valparaiso, IN "There's a fine line between stupid, and clever." - David St. Hubbins "Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon "The Fountain of Youth is a state of mind." - The Ides of March From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 27 12:14:44 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:14:44 -0400 Subject: Manual needed ... Dual Systems Control Corp memory board In-Reply-To: <200707271710.l6RH9RM8028085@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003201c7d071$a0fb63e0$6500a8c0@barry> Anyone have documentation for a Dual Systems Control Corp (later acquired by NorthStar) DMEM-256k memory board? From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 27 12:27:42 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:27:42 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 47, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: <200707271710.l6RH9RM8028085@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003601c7d073$706608a0$6500a8c0@barry> I'm not sure if this is sad or funny. I was in contact with the original owner and was possibly going to take it, but I gave up my claim because she found someone local who wanted it (you apparently). The issue is the shipping cost .... which I fear could be $50 (Ohio, 44720), these were heavy. Very heavy. My real purpose, frankly, is as possible spare parts for a (probably non-working) 1620 (the KSR keyboard version of the same basic printer). I have typewheels, ribbons (may or may not be any good) and full documentation (including the service manuals)(although I'm not sure that I know where they are). Any idea on the shipping cost to Ohio, 44720? By the way, the 1610/1620 does have software handshaking (ETX/ACK), and if you short a jumper on the CPU board, it's serial interface runs at 1,200 baud. In that case, you MUST use ETX/ACK handshaking, but it will print at 45 cps instead of 30 cps (and I seem to recall that it does bidirectional printing in that mode also, if the next line has been fully received). The difference is quite significant. Thanks, Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:22:04 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: AVAILABLE: Diable 1610 Hytype DW printer I went ahead and picked up the Diablo 1610 printer from the local party here who was trying to find a home for it. Now I want to give it a home... I checked it out--it works just fine and includes several typewheels (all various flavors of Courier) and ribbons as well as the operator's manual. Includes forms tractor. In pretty good condition for a 30 year old printer. This is an RO (no keyboard) model in charcoal color skins. Serial interface 110-300 baud w no handshake; 1200 using ETX/ACK. Free for shipping from Eugene, OR. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 27 13:04:22 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:04:22 -0500 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <46A93D7D.1040809@jetnet.ab.ca> <46A9170F.22987.220624A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070727130142.06b49670@mail> At 07:50 AM 7/27/2007, William Donzelli wrote: >The idea behind the getter is to clean up and gas that might be >trapped in the metal elements during pumpdown. A getter is really not >to clean up gases that sneak in thru the glass metal seals - the >getters just are not that effective, and as any plumber will tell you, >leaks only get bigger. Hmm, that reminds me of a lingering question in my mind. As a kid, I remember harvesting tubes from dead TVs behind the repair shop. Breaking the tube, there was often a ring at the top, U-shaped in cross-section. I seem to remember that they were filled with a powder that reacted with water, fizzing. Am I mixing up this smell-memory with playing with calcium carbide? What were common getter chemicals? - John From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 27 14:14:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:14:16 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070727130142.06b49670@mail> References: <46A93D7D.1040809@jetnet.ab.ca>, , <6.2.3.4.2.20070727130142.06b49670@mail> Message-ID: <46A9E198.16222.251D512A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jul 2007 at 13:04, John Foust wrote: > Hmm, that reminds me of a lingering question in my mind. > As a kid, I remember harvesting tubes from dead TVs behind > the repair shop. Breaking the tube, there was often a ring > at the top, U-shaped in cross-section. I seem to remember > that they were filled with a powder that reacted with > water, fizzing. Am I mixing up this smell-memory with playing > with calcium carbide? What were common getter chemicals? Not CaC2, but any of a variety of metals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getter Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 27 14:27:46 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:27:46 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070727130142.06b49670@mail> Message-ID: <200707271927.l6RJRsPo028720@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:04:22 -0500, John Foust wrote: >At 07:50 AM 7/27/2007, William Donzelli wrote: >>The idea behind the getter is to clean up and gas that might be >>trapped in the metal elements during pumpdown. A getter is really not >>to clean up gases that sneak in thru the glass metal seals - the >>getters just are not that effective, and as any plumber will tell you, >>leaks only get bigger. >Hmm, that reminds me of a lingering question in my mind. >As a kid, I remember harvesting tubes from dead TVs behind >the repair shop. Breaking the tube, there was often a ring >at the top, U-shaped in cross-section. I seem to remember >that they were filled with a powder that reacted with >water, fizzing. Am I mixing up this smell-memory with playing >with calcium carbide? What were common getter chemicals? >- John Very early tubes used magnesium, Scientific American had a great project using a Model T ignition coil to turn one into an X-Ray source which refered to them as being old way back then. Long before the artical was printed had switched to gallium as it did not radiate. A quick google found it here : http://www.noah.org/science/x-ray/stong/ Have fun :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jul 27 14:39:04 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:39:04 -0700 Subject: tube getters / was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer References: <46A93D7D.1040809@jetnet.ab.ca> <46A9170F.22987.220624A1@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070727130142.06b49670@mail> Message-ID: <46AA49D6.A67C1CF3@cs.ubc.ca> John Foust wrote: > > At 07:50 AM 7/27/2007, William Donzelli wrote: > >The idea behind the getter is to clean up and gas that might be > >trapped in the metal elements during pumpdown. A getter is really not > >to clean up gases that sneak in thru the glass metal seals - the > >getters just are not that effective, and as any plumber will tell you, > >leaks only get bigger. > > Hmm, that reminds me of a lingering question in my mind. > As a kid, I remember harvesting tubes from dead TVs behind > the repair shop. Breaking the tube, there was often a ring > at the top, U-shaped in cross-section. I seem to remember > that they were filled with a powder that reacted with > water, fizzing. Am I mixing up this smell-memory with playing > with calcium carbide? What were common getter chemicals? > > - John According to the RCA receiving tube manual (1960) the getter is Barium-magnesium alloys. An earlier reference (1933) mentions magnesium, barium, aluminum, calcium, cerium and Misch-metal. BTW: The U-shaped ring is a ring so that after the tube has been vacuummed & sealed, it can be inductively heated from the outside (forms a single-winding secondary of a transformer) to fire the getter. If you look at a variety of tubes the getter splash is on the envelope opposite the ring, be it the top of the envelope or somewhere on the side, and the open side of the U faces the envelope so the getter will fire out onto the envelope rather than the electrodes. In really old (1920s) tubes the ring was a small cup holding the unfired getter instead. (.. tending OT perhaps but list traffic is kind of slow .. must be summer) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 27 15:22:28 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:22:28 -0500 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A9E198.16222.251D512A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46A93D7D.1040809@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.3.4.2.20070727130142.06b49670@mail> <46A9E198.16222.251D512A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070727152144.06b89cf8@mail> At 02:14 PM 7/27/2007, you wrote: >Not CaC2, but any of a variety of metals: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getter Ah, so I was burning the hydrogen gas, and exposing myself to toxic barium compounds. :-) - John From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 27 15:46:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:46:35 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707271927.l6RJRsPo028720@keith.ezwind.net> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070727130142.06b49670@mail>, <200707271927.l6RJRsPo028720@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46A9F73B.18916.2571D46A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jul 2007 at 15:27, Bob Bradlee wrote: > Very early tubes used magnesium, Scientific American had a great project using a Model T ignition coil to > turn one into an X-Ray source which refered to them as being old way back then. I remember reading the original article and was sore tempted to build the rig, but was a little scared about the X-rays. Not too long before that time, it was still possible to pick up a junked shoe fluoroscope to do the same thing a little better. I've long wondered about using a HV rectifier tube as a source of soft X-rays, though. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 27 16:09:55 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070727152144.06b89cf8@mail> from John Foust at "Jul 27, 7 03:22:28 pm" Message-ID: <200707272109.l6RL9tdP016052@floodgap.com> > >Not CaC2, but any of a variety of metals: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getter > > Ah, so I was burning the hydrogen gas, and exposing myself > to toxic barium compounds. :-) That's why they call it barium, as in what you do after he's dead. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I know we can make it together! -- "Shogo" --------------------------------- From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Jul 27 16:30:28 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:30:28 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A9F73B.18916.2571D46A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070727130142.06b49670@mail>, <200707271927.l6RJRsPo028720@keith.ezwind.net> <46A9F73B.18916.2571D46A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46AA63F4.1030108@mainecoon.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've long wondered about using a HV rectifier tube as a source of > soft X-rays, though. It's being done off-the-shelf: http://unitednuclear.com/xray.htm Cheers, Chris. - -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGqmPxVeEgoxCNq5cRAjqIAJ4ukcxS8mECj1wMQjRNesT5Dt6jfwCgwbmI bv+G1CzZrzt6PjmetXJoIpM= =KaOM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From technobug at comcast.net Fri Jul 27 16:47:54 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:47:54 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707271541.l6RFeQ72027171@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707271541.l6RFeQ72027171@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1B91448B-5B81-4226-B750-A54D18AA9E7A@comcast.net> On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:50:07 -0700, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 26 Jul 2007 at 21:39, dwight elvey wrote: > >> Hi >> I have soem tubes made in the 1920's that still have a >> good vacuum. How much longer should I wait. >> Dwight > > Isn't that the whole idea behind a getter? Activated getter works on active gasses (and some of the heavier inert ones also) up to the point where the activated surface becomes saturated. In a well sealed tube, that can be a substantial time. However, it does not work with helium. Helium abhors a vacuum and will attempt to equilibrate its partial pressure inside the tube with that outside - glass and getter be damned. Same goes for HeNe lasers - the helium inside makes for the outside world and the laser goes south. I've been keeping a pair of HP Interferometers going for years by occasionally putting them in pure He for several weeks, all the time measuring the output and waiting for it to come back to spec. If you have an old, well-sealed tube that has gone gassy due to helium, you can rescue it by putting it in a high vacuum for a couple of months... CRC From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 17:15:52 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:15:52 -0500 Subject: Reinventing the paper terminal Message-ID: <51ea77730707271515m57481e50q388848bd52535e7d@mail.gmail.com> Well, sort-of: http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2007/07/27/email_typewrite.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 27 16:50:53 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:50:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 26, 7 07:29:57 pm Message-ID: > > The other is that I remmeber seeing adverts in Elektor magazine for a > > device so use USB flash memory sticks with microcontrollers. IIRC it was > > called something like 'Vinculum', and looked to be a panel mounting > > module with an IDE socket on it that you pluged the flash memory stick > > into. > > The one that gives you a UART or SPI interface to a FAT-formatted USB > thumb drive is at http://www.vinculum.com/prd_vdrive1.html > > >From their online store, looks to be about 14 quid. > > Dunno about the IDE socket, though. ARGH!!! Did I really say that. To many TLAs after a long day looking at the insides of HP9000s.... I meant 'USB socket'. From what I rmemebr it's a little panel-mounting thing with a socket you can plug the flash memory stick into. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 27 17:29:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 23:29:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46A9F73B.18916.2571D46A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 27, 7 01:46:35 pm Message-ID: > I've long wondered about using a HV rectifier tube as a source of > soft X-rays, though. >From my days in repairing _old_ colour TVs, I seem to remember that the valve that gave off the most Xrays wasn't the HV rectifier (a GY501 in most UK sets) but the 'Shunt Stabiliser' (often a PD500). This was a big triode connected between the EHT line and chassis, and formed an adjustable load on the EHT supply. The idea was to keep the total load (and thus the EHT voltage) constant as the CRT beam current changed. The valve had about 25kV acorss it and passed 1mA. The anode would, I beleive glow a very dull red. This valve, along with the valve EHT recrtifier, disappeared when semiconductor-based triplers came into use. These things had a much lower intenral impedance, so you didn't need to stabilise the load current. Tottally OT, but I worked on a colour TV that had 5 valves in the EHT cage, none of them being a shunt stabiliser, and it did use an valve rectifier, not a semiconductor. Apparently, the manufacturers wnated to get away from that hot-running X-ray-producing, PD500 There were effectively 2 horizontal output stages. The first used a PL504 (a valve mroe commonly found in monchrome TVs) with a PY800 booster diode (damper to you) alongside it. This circuit drove the deflection yoke, and the flyback votlage was rectified by a semiconductor rectifier to give the 5kV focus voltage for the CRT. The other output stage used a PL509 ouptut pentode witha PY500A booster (the conventional valves used in a colour TV horizontal defleciton stage). The flyback from this was rectified by a GY501 and used to provide the EHT to the CRT. The drive to the PL509 was controlled based on the beam current and/or EHT voltage to provide stabilisation (since this stange did not drive the yoke, the picture width was unaffected). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 27 17:50:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:50:48 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <1B91448B-5B81-4226-B750-A54D18AA9E7A@comcast.net> References: <200707271541.l6RFeQ72027171@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <1B91448B-5B81-4226-B750-A54D18AA9E7A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46AA1458.2979.25E38E45@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jul 2007 at 14:47, CRC wrote: > I've been keeping a pair of HP Interferometers going for years > by occasionally putting them in pure He for several weeks, all the > time measuring the output and waiting for it to come back to spec. If > you have an old, well-sealed tube that has gone gassy due to helium, > you can rescue it by putting it in a high vacuum for a couple of > months... Lessee, Dalton's Law, right? ...and the porosity of glass... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 27 18:03:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:03:11 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <46A9F73B.18916.2571D46A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 27, 7 01:46:35 pm, Message-ID: <46AA173F.4726.25EEE51D@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jul 2007 at 23:29, Tony Duell wrote: > From my days in repairing _old_ colour TVs, I seem to remember that the > valve that gave off the most Xrays wasn't the HV rectifier (a GY501 in > most UK sets) but the 'Shunt Stabiliser' (often a PD500). This was a > big triode connected between the EHT line and chassis, and formed an > adjustable load on the EHT supply. The idea was to keep the total load > (and thus the EHT voltage) constant as the CRT beam current > changed. I seem to recall the early color sets here had X-ray warning stickers on the HV regulator cage (and it was always a metal cage), but you rarely saw them on the monochrome sets. 6KB4 was the most common type--a large, octal-based unit with a peculiar cup-shaped grid more or less completely covering the cathode at the bottom of the tube and about a 3/8" air gap between that and the long tubular anode (like that on a 1B3, but much larger) connected to the top cap. Rated for something like 20-30KV if memory serves and about 30W plate dissipation. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 27 18:14:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:14:28 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AA173F.4726.25EEE51D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46A9F73B.18916.2571D46A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <46AA173F.4726.25EEE51D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46AA19E4.29262.25F9380E@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jul 2007 at 16:03, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 6KB4 was the most common type. Typo-fumble-fingers. 6BK4. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 27 12:28:56 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:28:56 -0400 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 Message-ID: <0JLU0002PLUOL5U4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Imagedisk 1.17 > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:11:40 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Lately I've found a very nasty bugs in IMD 1.16 (at least with a secondary >> FDC, tested on two different machines of different speed with different >> FDC). Reading disks is mostly fine, but writing to a drive connected to a >> secondary FDC doesn't work reliably. The problem is that the drive won't >> step properly, i.e. sometimes it misses a step pulse which makes the >> written disk unusable. The same problem occurs e.g. with the clean head >> routine. I had a look on your source code and I think it's a timing >> issue. I've inserted a small delay ('delay(55);') into the seek routine >> (between line 998 and line 999 in version 1.16) and this solved all the >> problem. I think that the seek routine is called too early after having >> sent the previous command to the FDC although it shouldn't matter because >> wrfdc officially waits for the FDC to be ready before sending a byte. But >> apparently some (many? all?) FDCs appear to be in a ready state although >> they are not yet ready to do a seek... really weird. > >It's impossible to test every FDC (at least in a free project). This >explaination doesn't make sense because the seek routine has a 55ms settleing >delay at the end (which you can increase with the SD= option), and the clean- >head routine has a 100ms delay between seeks, which makes a total of 150ms >delay. There are no other intervening commands during "clean heads" - since >seek() waits for seek complete, 150ms should be plenty of time for the >controller to be ready for another command. This also does not explain why >reading a disk would work, so I suspect there is some other factor involved >here.. > >This is the first I've heard of this problem - if you have problems with >ImageDisk, the best way to get it fixed correctly might be to work with >me on it instead of posting "fixes" to public forums. But... thats what >happens when you release source code. Ah, the step gremlin. It's an old 765(all!!!) problem. The problem is when the step pulse is set to minimum acceptable for the drive it's possible that due to internal timing of the 765 it can shorten the step timing of the first pulse by 1 count. If that occurs many drives seek badly and you get read or write errors because your not where you thought you were. Note: some old drives due to the lubricants turning to goo will also exhibit this type of error. There is one solution, step slower (SRT+1). Another problem is the 765 was designed for 77track drives (8" floppy) and there were no 80track minifloppies. So the Recal only issued 77 step pulses and would flag an see error if the drive was 80track. One fix is to issue a new Recal and see if the drive properly homed this time. The problem is there are some cores that fixed this and will issue up to 256 step pulses. The problem can also arise when using SA400/400L style drives ans some (not all) will jump track (loose the groove on the positioner disk) if stepped too far past tracks 000 or 39. Last gremlin is the 765(and cores) were designed to Seek/Recal up to 4 drives but PC hardware does not always decode this and may have drive 0 also appearing as drive 2 or 3 which makes it susceptable to being repositioned by commands not intended for it. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 27 12:45:36 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:45:36 -0400 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? Message-ID: <0JLU00LYXMMGIXQ0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: MMI 6701 bit slice? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:32:44 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 27 Jul 2007 at 6:51, dwight elvey wrote: > >> When I worked at Intel, I was responsible for test of the analog board >> that went with the 3000 series controller board. >> It seemed that even at the time, most of the engineers were >> only digital and something like a PLL or balanced mixer were >> beyond them. > >One thing I recall about the MDS floppy controller boards is that >they ran hot as a two-buck pistol. That was probably true of most of >the bit-slice stuff of the time. That and straight 74 (not LS or AS) TTL. >Around that time, I'd heard something concerning the Intel 8272 (the >8271 was apparently a horrible botch) FDC that I've long wondered was >true or not. The 8271 was single density only and at the time the market wanted DD. Worked ok but wrong part too late. > >I'd heard that Intel started development on the 8272, but couldn't >quite pull it off, and traded the basic design to NEC in exchange for >NEC's graphics controller. NEC completed the design as the uPD 765 >and licensed it back to Intel. Is there the slightest grain of truth >to this? No. 765 was a NEC design and licensed to Intel. There were some IP trading done between NEC and intel but involved other parts like 7201 (AKA 8274) and others (micros). Back then the chip makers very incestuous. From 79 to mid 80 was a very crazy time. >The 765/8272 in any case was too late for our own development. Like >a lot of other outfits, we went with the gang on Red Hill Road for >FDCs. By then WD had been making functional (usually) 1791/1793 parts for two maybe three years. However, along the way they often would have receipe problems and were known to deliver bad parts that would not work at all. The 1793 was a complex part for it's time and for WD the only thing they did that was more complex was WD16 (microprogrammed CPU also known as LSI-11). FYI: SMC created a varient that didn't have the three voltage needs of the WD part that was also socket compatable. Allison From steve at craftsathome.net Fri Jul 27 14:15:57 2007 From: steve at craftsathome.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:15:57 -0400 Subject: Mountain A/D Card? Message-ID: Hello. I found one of these (bare) cards for my Apple II, and have looked around on the web for documentation and software. I saw an old post you made about the same hardware, and was wondering if you had anything to share. Thanks. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 27 19:01:26 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:01:26 -0700 Subject: HP 1615 user/svc manual Message-ID: <46AA8756.7070002@bitsavers.org> someone was looking for this a few weeks ago http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/te/01615-90904_1615A_User_Service_Man_Oct79.pdf not the greatest scans, but all I have right now. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 19:13:08 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:13:08 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AA173F.4726.25EEE51D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46A9F73B.18916.2571D46A@cclist.sydex.com> <46AA173F.4726.25EEE51D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > 6KB4 was the most common > type--a large, octal-based unit with a peculiar cup-shaped grid more > or less completely covering the cathode at the bottom of the tube and > about a 3/8" air gap between that and the long tubular anode (like > that on a 1B3, but much larger) connected to the top cap. Rated for > something like 20-30KV if memory serves and about 30W plate > dissipation. It should be noted that 6BK4Cs still have a little value, as they are used in, of all places, some older semiconductor fab machines. -- Will From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Jul 27 19:17:32 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AA173F.4726.25EEE51D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46A9F73B.18916.2571D46A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 27, 7 01:46:35 pm, <46AA173F.4726.25EEE51D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:03:11 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available > > On 27 Jul 2007 at 23:29, Tony Duell wrote: > >> From my days in repairing _old_ colour TVs, I seem to remember that the >> valve that gave off the most Xrays wasn't the HV rectifier (a GY501 in >> most UK sets) but the 'Shunt Stabiliser' (often a PD500). This was a >> big triode connected between the EHT line and chassis, and formed an >> adjustable load on the EHT supply. The idea was to keep the total load >> (and thus the EHT voltage) constant as the CRT beam current >> changed. > > I seem to recall the early color sets here had X-ray warning stickers > on the HV regulator cage (and it was always a metal cage), but you > rarely saw them on the monochrome sets. 6KB4 was the most common > type--a large, octal-based unit with a peculiar cup-shaped grid more > or less completely covering the cathode at the bottom of the tube and > about a 3/8" air gap between that and the long tubular anode (like > that on a 1B3, but much larger) connected to the top cap. Rated for > something like 20-30KV if memory serves and about 30W plate > dissipation. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > An interesting use for these (6BK4) I've seen is an electrostatic raster scan amplifier for an ion implanter. Kind of like a op amp with +- 10KV out... Peter Wallace From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 27 08:53:34 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:53:34 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops Wrong button Sorry about that Dwight >From: "dwight elvey" > >>From: "from at fu3.org" >>Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >>Posts" >>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >>Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available >>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:43:45 +0200 >> >>2007/7/23, Roy J. Tellason : >> > We did a lot of c64 repairs way back when. When the machine sold for >>$595 as >> > it did at first, then a $60 repair bill made economic sense. When >>they sold >> > for only $99 (as they did later on), it was a tossup. >> >>Didn't the new C-64 look somewhat like the Amiga500/600's? -You could >>imagine they were less friendly for repairing in a hobbyist/repairman >>sense, any experiences there? > >_________________________________________________________________ >Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one >place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 > _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 19:58:47 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:58:47 -0400 Subject: Reinventing the paper terminal In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707271515m57481e50q388848bd52535e7d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730707271515m57481e50q388848bd52535e7d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0707271758g4dc2c934xfecb3f51231e5a0f@mail.gmail.com> On 27/07/07, Jason T wrote: > Well, sort-of: > > http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2007/07/27/email_typewrite.html If you look at the creator's page, these things are more design studies/art: (The typewriter is under "22 POP") http://www.interaction-ivrea.it/theses/2003-04/householdobjectsintheact/thesis_1_intro.html As such this is a clever hack, and seemingly well thought out! Joe. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 27 23:15:44 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:15:44 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46AAC2F0.9060504@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I have soem tubes made in the 1920's that still have a > good vacuum. How much longer should I wait. Well all I know is apply filament voltage slowly with no high voltage to let the getter heat up and work. > Dwight Hopefully you'l^H^H^H^Htube live a good 90 years more. PS. Only who in 90 years will remember ^H From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 23:29:00 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:29:00 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AAC2F0.9060504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46AAC2F0.9060504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Well all I know is apply filament voltage slowly with no high voltage > to let the getter heat up and work. That is a old radio myth - it does not work any better than just letting the tube do its own thing. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 28 00:25:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:25:07 -0700 Subject: tube getters / was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer In-Reply-To: <46AA49D6.A67C1CF3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: >From: Brent Hilpert ---snip--- > >BTW: The U-shaped ring is a ring so that after the tube has been vacuummed >& >sealed, it can be inductively heated from the outside (forms a >single-winding >secondary of a transformer) to fire the getter. If you look at a variety of >tubes the getter splash is on the envelope opposite the ring, be it the top >of >the envelope or somewhere on the side, and the open side of the U faces the >envelope so the getter will fire out onto the envelope rather than the >electrodes. In really old (1920s) tubes the ring was a small cup holding >the >unfired getter instead. Hi On really old tubes it was just painted onto the glass pedistal that held the feed thru's. I have a number of these. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 28 00:37:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:37:05 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: , <46AAC2F0.9060504@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: <46AA7391.8435.27578124@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2007 at 0:29, William Donzelli wrote: > That is a old radio myth - it does not work any better than just > letting the tube do its own thing. It's probably not a bad idea to limit inrush current, however. A surgistor will do that trick. I seem to remember it's also advisable to let mercury-vapor rectifiers that haven't been used for a long time "cook" without plate voltage the first time they're used (beyond, that is, the initial normal warm-up time). ...but then, I'm telling anyone anything they don't already know. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 28 00:40:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:40:46 -0700 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? In-Reply-To: <46A9ADAC.4879.24527AB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 27 Jul 2007 at 6:51, dwight elvey wrote: > > > When I worked at Intel, I was responsible for test of the analog board > > that went with the 3000 series controller board. > > It seemed that even at the time, most of the engineers were > > only digital and something like a PLL or balanced mixer were > > beyond them. > >One thing I recall about the MDS floppy controller boards is that >they ran hot as a two-buck pistol. That was probably true of most of >the bit-slice stuff of the time. > >Around that time, I'd heard something concerning the Intel 8272 (the >8271 was apparently a horrible botch) FDC that I've long wondered was >true or not. > >I'd heard that Intel started development on the 8272, but couldn't >quite pull it off, and traded the basic design to NEC in exchange for >NEC's graphics controller. NEC completed the design as the uPD 765 >and licensed it back to Intel. Is there the slightest grain of truth >to this? > >The 765/8272 in any case was too late for our own development. Like >a lot of other outfits, we went with the gang on Red Hill Road for >FDCs. > Hi This all happened after I left but I find nothing that you've stated as being too out of line for Intel. The two board sets only did FM or M2FM, depending on version. I don't recall but I think there early ones only did FM. It wasn't until the 8272 that they had MFM. The Series II internal only did FM, I wonder if that used the 8271? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 28 00:54:23 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:54:23 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AA7391.8435.27578124@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" >>On 28 Jul 2007 at 0:29, William Donzelli wrote: > > > That is a old radio myth - it does not work any better than just > > letting the tube do its own thing. > >It's probably not a bad idea to limit inrush current, however. A >surgistor will do that trick. > >I seem to remember it's also advisable to let mercury-vapor >rectifiers that haven't been used for a long time "cook" without >plate voltage the first time they're used (beyond, that is, the >initial normal warm-up time). > >...but then, I'm telling anyone anything they don't already know. > Hi I've never had a gassy tube restore under any condition. I have restored filaments with poor emition by running them at higher voltages for some time. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!? http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 28 02:04:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:04:21 -0700 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? In-Reply-To: References: <46A9ADAC.4879.24527AB3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46AA8805.26412.27A7643A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jul 2007 at 22:40, dwight elvey wrote: > This all happened after I left but I find nothing that you've stated as > being too out of line for Intel. The two board sets only did FM or M2FM, > depending on version. I don't recall but I think there early ones only > did FM. It wasn't until the 8272 that they had MFM. > The Series II internal only did FM, I wonder if that used the 8271? I remember that we had the original MDS-800 and it came with single- sided FM drives. We then got a series II, but with the 2-board MFM controller, which also did FM. I may still have some ISIS-II diskettes from that. IIRC, the first track of both the FM and MFM floppies was FM. There were some interesting LSI floppy controllers wandering around for a time, even though it seems that the WD stuff was the most common. Moto had a 6843(?) that did FM. I recall that the 8271 had a mode bit to set if it was being used with the old double-disk-single-positioner PerSci drives (the only LSI controller I've ever seen with that feature). There was a bipolar floppy controller for the Signetics 8x300 microcontroller,the 8x330, that was less of a controller and more of a floppy interface for the 8x300--the '300 had to scan for address marks and so forth and twiddle bits in the 330 to change modes. I've been trying to recall the LSI controller that allowed one to program (via registers) the clock and data patterns for address marks. I'm pretty sure it was FM-only, but beyond that, I'm drawing a blank. Cheers, Chuck From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Jul 27 23:55:40 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:55:40 -0700 Subject: Apple III Power Supply: Success (I think...) Message-ID: <46AACC4C.3040900@msu.edu> Thanks again to everyone offering suggestions for fixing my Apple III's power supply. I opted to do a wholesale replacement of the electrolytics in the power supply, since I was likely going to be removing all of them to test them anyway and there's only a handful to take care of. $9 worth of parts later, the issue seems to be resolved -- the system powers up and runs diagnostics. (Though it keeps cycling, so I don't know yet if that's another problem or normal behavior :)). The only thing I have noticed is that there's a very noticeable "hiss" noise coming from the power supply -- not sure where, exactly. Any ideas if this is normal? At the moment I have only the motherboard & 256k RAM expansion running (no keyboard or floppy drive.) Thanks again! Josh From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jul 28 06:37:31 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:37:31 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <0JLU0002PLUOL5U4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca> > Ah, the step gremlin. It's an old 765(all!!!) problem. The problem is when > the step pulse is set to minimum acceptable for the drive it's possible that > due to internal timing of the 765 it can shorten the step timing of the > first pulse by 1 count. If that occurs many drives seek badly and you get > read or write errors because your not where you thought you were. > Note: some old drives due to the lubricants turning to goo will also exhibit > this type of error. There is one solution, step slower (SRT+1). A possibility - Christial, try using SR= to set the step rate slower. > Another problem is the 765 was designed for 77track drives (8" floppy) > and there were no 80track minifloppies. So the Recal only issued > 77 step pulses and would flag an see error if the drive was 80track. > One fix is to issue a new Recal and see if the drive properly homed > this time. The problem is there are some cores that fixed this and will > issue up to 256 step pulses. The problem can also arise when using > SA400/400L style drives ans some (not all) will jump track (loose > the groove on the positioner disk) if stepped too far past tracks > 000 or 39. Yeah, known problem - I issue a second recal if the first does not result in track-0. Agreed, with the "right" controller, and failure mode, this can result in 512 step pulses going to the drive - not much you can do. > Last gremlin is the 765(and cores) were designed to Seek/Recal up to 4 > drives but PC hardware does not always decode this and may have drive 0 > also appearing as drive 2 or 3 which makes it susceptable to being > repositioned by commands not intended for it. IMD only works on one drive at a time, and only issues one command at a time. Thanks for the input - I'll ask Christian to check out a slower step rate. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 28 07:49:00 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 08:49:00 -0400 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? In-Reply-To: <46A87BC3.24285.1FA78BA1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46A87BC3.24285.1FA78BA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070728124900.C2881BA44D6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > There's been a lot of chatter about the AMD 2901 series bit-slice. > Does anyone recall any system that employed the MMI 6701 series? System? As in "main CPU"? No. But I seem to recall some non-DEC Q-bus or Unibus peripherals having the MMI 6701's. The early Emulex tape controllers with formatters? (Or maybe I'm thinking of a Cipher formatter?) Systems Industries in their Massbus-emulating stuff? Tim. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 28 09:28:48 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:28:48 -0700 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: >From: "Dave Dunfield" > > > Ah, the step gremlin. It's an old 765(all!!!) problem. The problem is >when > > the step pulse is set to minimum acceptable for the drive it's possible >that > > due to internal timing of the 765 it can shorten the step timing of the > > first pulse by 1 count. If that occurs many drives seek badly and you >get > > read or write errors because your not where you thought you were. > > Note: some old drives due to the lubricants turning to goo will also >exhibit > > this type of error. There is one solution, step slower (SRT+1). > >A possibility - Christial, try using SR= to set the step rate slower. > Hi One other thing. Ususally one doesn't see this one but on a machine I put together, using a different processor, on one command I was able to beet the busy response of the controller chip. It was on only one command but I don't recall which command. If the PC is running the bus faster than the 765 is clocking, one can be too quick. I recall putting a short delay to make sure the status read was coorrect. I know it was this because I did an experiment that I'd read it twice. The second read was OK but not the first. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 09:44:43 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 10:44:43 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AA7391.8435.27578124@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46AAC2F0.9060504@jetnet.ab.ca> <46AA7391.8435.27578124@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It's probably not a bad idea to limit inrush current, however. A > surgistor will do that trick. Limiting inrush is useless for nearly every tube made, as the filaments are made to deal with it anyway. The only tubes I know of that required some sort of inrush protection were a few of the very large transmitting types from the 1940s - the kind whose filament current ratings are in the hundreds of Amps. Some of them even had specific power up and power down sequences. With some of the huge tubes later on, there was inrush protection, but that was to protect the transformer, not the tube. > I seem to remember it's also advisable to let mercury-vapor > rectifiers that haven't been used for a long time "cook" without > plate voltage the first time they're used (beyond, that is, the > initial normal warm-up time). Yes, the dreaded flashover. Every time a mercury rectifier is powered on, it should go thru the ten-minute (or so) cycle, to make sure ALL of the mercury is vaporized before high voltage is applied. As far as I know, computers did not use mercury vapor rectifiers. In all the ones I have seen, or seen documents for, the rectifiers have been gas types. When I was recently poking my nose into Pierce's 709 power unit (7mumblefoo?), I saw that IBM used C16J thyratrons - a whole flock of them. Which probably makes that power unit the most costly piece to retube these days. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 28 09:47:47 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:47:47 -0700 Subject: Apple III Power Supply: Success (I think...) In-Reply-To: <46AACC4C.3040900@msu.edu> Message-ID: >From: Josh Dersch ---snip--- > >The only thing I have noticed is that there's a very noticeable "hiss" >noise coming from the power supply -- not sure where, exactly. Any ideas >if this is normal? At the moment I have only the motherboard & 256k RAM >expansion running (no keyboard or floppy drive.) > Hi Many switchers will make such sounds. It is not too unusual. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 28 10:01:23 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 08:01:23 -0700 Subject: MMI 6701 bit slice? In-Reply-To: <46AA8805.26412.27A7643A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" ---snip--- > >I remember that we had the original MDS-800 and it came with single- >sided FM drives. We then got a series II, but with the 2-board MFM >controller, which also did FM. I may still have some ISIS-II >diskettes from that. IIRC, the first track of both the FM and MFM >floppies was FM. > Speaking of ISIS-II, I wonder if anyone has tried to collect the files that were in the user library that Intel had at the time? There were a lot of useful programs there for the 8080 and 8085. A while back I stopped by the Intel Museum. They didn't have much of anything. They seemed to be just advertising for the latest processor with little about where Intel had been. I do think you're right about reading FM on the first track. That was kind of standard for older 8 inch disk. My Olivetti M20 does that with 5-1/4 disk. I guess it is a carry over from the CP/M days. It made copying my M20 disk hard until I found a controller that ran single density. For the M20, the first track was just disk setup information and the same for most all. I had to first format a disk on the M20 and then overwrite the rest of the tracks with the new data. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jul 28 11:02:15 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:02:15 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0707270243s5253749aw3243d254439bd5c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <200707222118.15253.rtellason@verizon.net> <310f50ab0707270243s5253749aw3243d254439bd5c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707281202.15627.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 27 July 2007 05:43, from at fu3.org wrote: > 2007/7/23, Roy J. Tellason : > > We did a lot of c64 repairs way back when. When the machine sold for > > $595 as it did at first, then a $60 repair bill made economic sense. > > When they sold for only $99 (as they did later on), it was a tossup. > > Didn't the new C-64 look somewhat like the Amiga500/600's? -You could > imagine they were less friendly for repairing in a hobbyist/repairman > sense, any experiences there? There were two aspects to this. One was the case, including the keyboard with the different colored keycaps, and that wasn't all that big of a deal once you got into it. The other was the fact that they kept on changing the board inside, there being a total of four or five different revisions that we saw a lot of . Earlier units had differences in the video area, the on-board 7805 regulator standing up rather than laying down, and similar but the first three or four revisions were pretty similar. Then they did stuff like combining the eight RAM chips into two, combining two of the three ROMs (Kernel anb BASIC if I'm remembering right), and combining the PLA with some other random logic to cut the parts count, those were a bit more of a PITA to work on. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jul 28 11:07:32 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:07:32 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <1B91448B-5B81-4226-B750-A54D18AA9E7A@comcast.net> References: <200707271541.l6RFeQ72027171@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1B91448B-5B81-4226-B750-A54D18AA9E7A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200707281207.33210.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 27 July 2007 17:47, CRC wrote: > If you have an old, well-sealed tube that has gone gassy due to helium, > you can rescue it by putting it in a high vacuum for a couple of months... Where can one do such a thing? (Thinking about working on older stuff...) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 28 12:07:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 10:07:55 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: , <46AA7391.8435.27578124@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2007 at 10:44, William Donzelli wrote: > Limiting inrush is useless for nearly every tube made, as the > filaments are made to deal with it anyway. The only tubes I know of > that required some sort of inrush protection were a few of the very > large transmitting types from the 1940s - the kind whose filament > current ratings are in the hundreds of Amps. Some of them even had > specific power up and power down sequences. With some of the huge > tubes later on, there was inrush protection, but that was to protect > the transformer, not the tube. Surgistors were very popular in the 50's as either an add-on for TV receivers or as part of the original chassis. > As far as I know, computers did not use mercury vapor rectifiers. In > all the ones I have seen, or seen documents for, the rectifiers have > been gas types. When I was recently poking my nose into Pierce's 709 > power unit (7mumblefoo?), I saw that IBM used C16J thyratrons - a > whole flock of them. Which probably makes that power unit the most > costly piece to retube these days. I don't know about the 1600 volt supply for the Univac Solid State machines for the clock output stage. That might be a possibility, but I can't find a reference. Weren't some mercury vapor thyratrons used to drive some printer and punch coils in the early systems? Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 12:23:42 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:23:42 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46AA7391.8435.27578124@cclist.sydex.com> <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Surgistors were very popular in the 50's as either an add-on for TV > receivers or as part of the original chassis. Filled with the finest snake oil available... > I don't know about the 1600 volt supply for the Univac Solid State > machines for the clock output stage. That might be a possibility, > but I can't find a reference. Weren't some mercury vapor thyratrons > used to drive some printer and punch coils in the early systems? It is entirely possible. I would like to find more references to find out exactly what tubes were used in specific equipments, but for various reasons, that project has stalled. -- Will From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 28 12:37:16 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:37:16 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707281737.l6SHbMAM000984@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 10:07:55 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I don't know about the 1600 volt supply for the Univac Solid State >machines for the clock output stage. That might be a possibility, >but I can't find a reference. Weren't some mercury vapor thyratrons >used to drive some printer and punch coils in the early systems? >Cheers, >Chuck Here are a few links, I found .... Univac I - "130 tubes (2050 thyratrons), when fired, drove the hammers to print the characters in the blockette of tape data. " http://tinyurl.com/2n66zf http://tinyurl.com/2jspp3 "Where I came from, Thyratrons were gas-filled (Argon, if I recall correctly), and the mercury ones were called Ignitrons, although that may have only been GE's trade-name for them. A line-printer I used to have (from the Univac SS-90) used thyratrons for the hammer drivers. I still have a 6-volt battery-charger with an ignitron." "Nike Ajax which was designed in 1946-1951..." http://tinyurl.com/2yyrfo later The other Bob From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jul 28 12:34:07 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:34:07 -0500 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <46AA7391.8435.27578124@cclist.sydex.com> <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070728123339.06bd2fc8@mail> At 12:23 PM 7/28/2007, William Donzelli wrote: >> Surgistors were very popular in the 50's as either an add-on for TV >> receivers or as part of the original chassis. > >Filled with the finest snake oil available... An old commercial for the Wuerth Tube Saver : http://www.archive.org/details/The_Big_Idea - John From bmachacek at pcisys.net Sat Jul 28 13:07:57 2007 From: bmachacek at pcisys.net (Bill Machacek) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:07:57 -0600 Subject: Sad Story from Denver Message-ID: <000001c7d142$3a64f4d0$0200000a@nitrogen> Just thought I'd pass on what happened to me this week. Early in the week I got a call from my son who said they had some kind of device that his manager was going to get rid of but thought I might be interested in getting it. He sent me a follow up email that included a couple of pictures of it. It turns out it was a Data General Eclipse computer and looked like an S-140. I called him back and told him I was interested in getting it because it was an old Data General mini computer. His manager wanted it out of the warehouse which they had dropped their lease on right away. They couldn't wait for me to come up on the week end. (I live in Colo. Springs, the unit was in a warehouse in north Denver) I told my son I could get up there as early as Thursday but Friday would be better. I needed to make arrangements at work since this would be about a 3 hour round trip just to pick it up. When I called my son on Thursday to make final arrangements, he said it was too late. The night shift maintenance crew who were cleaning up the warehouse had not been told to leave the computer there for another day. During the night they took it and a couple of old 286s and threw them in the dumpster. Then, being the efficient crew that they were and since they had filled the dumpster, they called for it to be removed. Well by the time my son's manager got to the warehouse that day, sometime after noon, everything was gone. I think this has taught me a valuable lesson which I guess most of us in the "rescue" business learn at one or another, "Don't Wait". I just wanted to share this with the board and say I won't make this mistake again. The next time I hear of an old computer that is available, I'm going to head out that same day and worry about my work getting done later. Bill Machacek Colo. Springs, CO From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 28 13:07:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 11:07:59 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707281737.l6SHbMAM000984@keith.ezwind.net> References: <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com>, <200707281737.l6SHbMAM000984@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46AB238F.5187.2A06FAD4@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2007 at 13:37, Bob Bradlee wrote: (...links...) I'd still love to know what the rectifiers in the USS machines were, although I suspect they were something like 3B28's (xenon gas- filled). Cheers, Chuck From fu3.org at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 13:09:54 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:09:54 +0200 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707281202.15627.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070719225954.03bdd9c8@pop.1and1.com> <200707222118.15253.rtellason@verizon.net> <310f50ab0707270243s5253749aw3243d254439bd5c1@mail.gmail.com> <200707281202.15627.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <310f50ab0707281109n30759bf9u1aa79fb3e687f45e@mail.gmail.com> 2007/7/28, Roy J. Tellason : > On Friday 27 July 2007 05:43, from at fu3.org wrote: > > > Didn't the new C-64 look somewhat like the Amiga500/600's? -You could > > imagine they were less friendly for repairing in a hobbyist/repairman > > sense, any experiences there? > > There were two aspects to this. One was the case, including the keyboard > with the different colored keycaps, and that wasn't all that big of a deal > once you got into it. The other was the fact that they kept on changing the > board inside, there being a total of four or five different revisions that > we saw a lot of . Earlier units had differences in the video area, the > on-board 7805 regulator standing up rather than laying down, and similar but > the first three or four revisions were pretty similar. Then they did stuff > like combining the eight RAM chips into two, combining two of the three ROMs > (Kernel anb BASIC if I'm remembering right), and combining the PLA with some > other random logic to cut the parts count, those were a bit more of a PITA > to work on. > Alright, it seems you still hacked it. -Thanks for feeding my curiousity. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 28 13:24:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 11:24:20 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070728123339.06bd2fc8@mail> References: , , <6.2.3.4.2.20070728123339.06bd2fc8@mail> Message-ID: <46AB2764.26756.2A15F341@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2007 at 12:34, John Foust wrote: > An old commercial for the Wuerth Tube Saver : > > http://www.archive.org/details/The_Big_Idea Not the relay-and-resistor type, but you could often find surgistors (ceramic disc-capacitor looking things, but I believe, made of carbon) soldered in the filament string as part of some old sets. Then there were the "bulb savers"--small discs probably containing nothing more than a carbon resistor that were placed in the bottom of an Edison-base lamp socket between the bottom contact of the socket and the end contact of the bulb. I wonder if these were ever encountered in the UK--it would seem that one would interfere with the bayonet-style lamp sockets used there. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jul 28 13:26:58 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:26:58 -0500 Subject: Sad Story from Denver In-Reply-To: <000001c7d142$3a64f4d0$0200000a@nitrogen> References: <000001c7d142$3a64f4d0$0200000a@nitrogen> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070728132607.04f04130@mail> At 01:07 PM 7/28/2007, Bill Machacek wrote: >Then, being the efficient crew that they were and since they had >filled the dumpster, they called for it to be removed. Well by the time my >son's manager got to the warehouse that day, sometime after noon, everything >was gone. Ouch! I would've called the dumpster company to find where it was tipped. - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 13:37:52 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:37:52 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707281737.l6SHbMAM000984@keith.ezwind.net> References: <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> <200707281737.l6SHbMAM000984@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >From the tinyurl: > "Where I came from, Thyratrons were gas-filled (Argon, > if I recall correctly), and the mercury ones were called Ignitrons, > although that may have only been GE's trade-name for them. Ignitrons are very different beasts from thyratrons. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jul 28 13:38:04 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 11:38:04 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available References: <46AA7391.8435.27578124@cclist.sydex.com> <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46AB8D0C.29E231C2@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > Surgistors were very popular in the 50's as either an add-on for TV > > receivers or as part of the original chassis. > > Filled with the finest snake oil available... A lot of TV's from around that period or a little later used selenium rectifiers directly off the line (no power transformer) with a fair whop of capacitance in the filters (very low impedance on both sides of the rectifier). I'm guessing, but surgistors might have been used to limit initial charge current, rather than for the sake of the filaments. Selenium rectifiers have more ON-resistance than silicon diodes but I'm not sure if it was enough to save the junctions in such circumstances. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jul 28 14:36:54 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:36:54 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available References: <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> <200707281737.l6SHbMAM000984@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46AB9AD5.6B3DD701@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > >From the tinyurl: > > > "Where I came from, Thyratrons were gas-filled (Argon, > > if I recall correctly), and the mercury ones were called Ignitrons, > > although that may have only been GE's trade-name for them. > > Ignitrons are very different beasts from thyratrons. They're both gas-filled power-control devices performing similar functions. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jul 28 14:59:45 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 16:59:45 -0300 Subject: Apple III Power Supply: Success (I think...) References: <46AACC4C.3040900@msu.edu> Message-ID: <098f01c7d151$fe52e4b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I opted to do a wholesale replacement of the electrolytics in the power > supply, since I was likely going to be removing all of them to test them > anyway and there's only a handful to take care of. $9 worth of parts > later, the issue seems to be resolved -- the system powers up and runs > diagnostics. (Though it keeps cycling, so I don't know yet if that's > another problem or normal behavior :)). In SPSUs it isn't always the wise way. Some of your old capacitors surely are low-ESR types (you can spot them because they are 105? capacitors and the high-esr ones are 88?) and it can mess the regulation of your power supply. Have a multitester around? Know how to use it? Measure the voltage of the outputs of the PSU and see if everything is ok. If you still have the old capacitors, take a look if any of them has 105? written on that. Greetz from Brazil Alexandre From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 15:21:49 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 16:21:49 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AB9AD5.6B3DD701@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> <200707281737.l6SHbMAM000984@keith.ezwind.net> <46AB9AD5.6B3DD701@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > > Ignitrons are very different beasts from thyratrons. > > They're both gas-filled power-control devices performing similar functions. Mmmm...sort of. After a few beers. Thyratrons can contain gases or mercury (or I think, in some case, both), and they still use a filament, much like a normal tube (pliotron or kenotron, if any GE people are keeping score) and some sort of grid for control, although in many thyratrons the grid looks nothing like a grid. Thyratrons are used for control rather than rectification, although one can rectify with them (IBMs power supply for the 709 - they were likely used to give some sort of help in regulating the DC output). Ignitrons use mercury (I have never heard of one that does not, although krytrons are pretty similar) and do not have filaments. The conductor is the mercury plasma created by the igniter arc, and conduction is more or less the arc between the pool and the anode. Ignitrons tend to be used more for rectification than control(and when used for control, they tend to be simple on-off, rather than the more sophisticated setups thyratrons are often see with). -- Will From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 28 13:35:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:35:31 -0400 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 Message-ID: <0JLW000YJJL9NCF0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Imagedisk 1.17 > From: "dwight elvey" > Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:28:48 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > >>From: "Dave Dunfield" >> >> > Ah, the step gremlin. It's an old 765(all!!!) problem. The problem is >>when >> > the step pulse is set to minimum acceptable for the drive it's possible >>that >> > due to internal timing of the 765 it can shorten the step timing of the >> > first pulse by 1 count. If that occurs many drives seek badly and you >>get >> > read or write errors because your not where you thought you were. >> > Note: some old drives due to the lubricants turning to goo will also >>exhibit >> > this type of error. There is one solution, step slower (SRT+1). >> >>A possibility - Christial, try using SR= to set the step rate slower. >> >Hi >One other thing. Ususally one doesn't see this one but on a machine I >put together, using a different processor, on one command I was >able to beet the busy response of the controller chip. It was on only >one command but I don't recall which command. >If the PC is running the bus faster than the 765 is clocking, one can >be too quick. >I recall putting a short delay to make sure the status read was coorrect. >I know it was this because I did an experiment that I'd read it twice. >The second read was OK but not the first. >Dwight Yes, this can be the case as the 765 has a micro inside and it has a finite timing delay and that's driven off the main clock which is usually either 4 or 8mhz. Allison > >_________________________________________________________________ >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 28 17:09:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 18:09:50 -0400 Subject: Apple III Power Supply: Success (I think...) In-Reply-To: <098f01c7d151$fe52e4b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <46AACC4C.3040900@msu.edu> <098f01c7d151$fe52e4b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <2835AE05-D7AF-4D94-AFA0-570B3DC519AE@neurotica.com> On Jul 28, 2007, at 3:59 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I opted to do a wholesale replacement of the electrolytics in the >> power supply, since I was likely going to be removing all of them >> to test them anyway and there's only a handful to take care of. >> $9 worth of parts later, the issue seems to be resolved -- the >> system powers up and runs diagnostics. (Though it keeps cycling, >> so I don't know yet if that's another problem or normal behavior :)). > > In SPSUs it isn't always the wise way. Some of your old > capacitors surely are low-ESR types (you can spot them because they > are 105? capacitors and the high-esr ones are 88?) and it can mess > the regulation of your power supply. Have a multitester around? > Know how to use it? Measure the voltage of the outputs of the PSU > and see if everything is ok. If you still have the old capacitors, > take a look if any of them has 105? written on that. Whoa, hang on there Alexandre...I've seen no correlation whatsoever between ESR and maximum operating temperature ratings. It is definitely true that, in many parts of a switching regulator circuit, low-ESR capacitors are essential...Not just a nicety, but absolutely essential for the circuit to function. This is particularly true of the output capacitor(s). It is also true that many switching regulator circuits run hotter than some other types of circuitry, so the use of high-temperature-rated capacitors is often important in such designs. However, I respectfully submit that low-ESR and high temperature ratings of electrolytic capacitors for use in switching regulator circuits is essentially a coincidence. While I've not specifically researched this, I have designed quite a few switching regulators, and during the component selection process I've not seen anything to suggest that a high temperature rating implies low ESR. Typical symptoms of excessive ESR in a switching regulator's output capacitor is excessive ripple and poor line regulation. These problems can be severe (up to and including SMOKE) if "ordinary" capacitors are used without paying attention to their ESR. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 28 17:22:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:22:35 -0700 Subject: Apple III Power Supply: Success (I think...) In-Reply-To: <2835AE05-D7AF-4D94-AFA0-570B3DC519AE@neurotica.com> References: <46AACC4C.3040900@msu.edu>, <098f01c7d151$fe52e4b0$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <2835AE05-D7AF-4D94-AFA0-570B3DC519AE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46AB5F3B.21770.2AF011D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2007 at 18:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > Whoa, hang on there Alexandre...I've seen no correlation > whatsoever between ESR and maximum operating temperature ratings. I can see one. If you try using a non-low-ESR cap in a SMPSU that requires one, the temperature of said cap will rise very quickly. Not exactly the correlation intended, but there IS one! Sorry, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 28 17:05:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 23:05:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AA173F.4726.25EEE51D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 27, 7 04:03:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 27 Jul 2007 at 23:29, Tony Duell wrote: > > > From my days in repairing _old_ colour TVs, I seem to remember that the > > valve that gave off the most Xrays wasn't the HV rectifier (a GY501 in > > most UK sets) but the 'Shunt Stabiliser' (often a PD500). This was a > > big triode connected between the EHT line and chassis, and formed an > > adjustable load on the EHT supply. The idea was to keep the total load > > (and thus the EHT voltage) constant as the CRT beam current > > changed. > > I seem to recall the early color sets here had X-ray warning stickers > on the HV regulator cage (and it was always a metal cage), but you > rarely saw them on the monochrome sets. 6KB4 was the most common Contrary to what some books said, I do not belive the EHT rectifier valve, even in a colour TV, was a major source of X-rays. As I understand, it, the energy ('hardness' ;-)) of the X-rays depends on the accelerating voltage across the X-ray tube, the intensity depends on the current. There simply isn't that high a voltage drop across the rectifier valve when it's forward-baised to produce hard X-rays. And of course when it's reverse-biased, the current is minimal. Therefore I do not beleive the lower EHT in a monochrome set (15kV as against 25kV) is the reason that said sets don't have an X-ray warning on the EHT cage. Now the shunt stabiliser valve had the full 25kV EHT across it, and was passing 1mA or so. That would be enough to produce soft X-rays. Of course monochrome TVs didn't have such a device, so no X-ray problems there. Interestingly, while I've seen X-ray warnigns, and even interlock switches on the EHT cage of sets that used a shunt stabiliser, there was nothing on the EHT cage of that set I mentioned last night which had the 2 output stanges and no stabiliser.triode.Presubably becuase there was nothing in that EHT cage to produce significant X-rays. > type--a large, octal-based unit with a peculiar cup-shaped grid more TV valves seen very continent-specific. The UK (and AFAIK European) sets almost always used a PD500. This was a big triode, constructed roughly as you've described but with a B9D base. This, also called a 'Magnoval' was an all-glass base, similar to the well-known B9A (Noval) base (think of a 12AX7 or similar), but about twice the diameter. Polarised by a wide gap between 2 of the pins, not a certnal locator like the octal base. The line output valve ('horixontal output tube' to you :-)), in colour sets and later monochrome sets had the same base (the valves being the PL504 and PL509 respectively). Earler sets used the PL81 (B9A base, IMHO thios valve was massively under-rated, and failed far too often), and before that the 30P4/PL36 on an octal base. Colour TVs used a PY500A boster diode ('damper tube'), again on the B9D base. Monochrome sets used a PY800 (B9A base), and before that the U191/PY31 (octal base). Note that in the UK, most booster diodes had the _cathode_ connected to the top cap. Colour TVs that used a valve rectifier almost always used the GY501 (again on a B9D base). Monochrome sets might use a B9A-based rectifier (DY86, EY86, KY80, etc), or a wire-ended one, soldered in place (EY51, etc). Almost all UK TVs had series-string heaters, the first letter 'P' of the valve number meaning '300 mA heater'. The next letters indicated the electrode structure, D = power triode, L = power pentode, Y = half-wave rectifier, etc. The first digit gives the base -- '8' meaning a B9A base, '5' meaning intitially a B9G base (like a 9 pin Loctal, think of the EF50 used in a lot of military equipment), then used for some wire-ended types, and finally, when 3-digit numbers were introduced, it was used for the b9D base. Note that, of course, the EHT rectiifer diode's filament was not included in the series string. It was powered from a little winding on the line output transformer (flyback transformer). Which explains why 'D' (1.4V), 'E' (6.3V), 'K' (2V) and 'G' (origianlly 5V, but later used for just about anything -- IIRC the GY501 has a 3.15V filament) turn up here. > or less completely covering the cathode at the bottom of the tube and > about a 3/8" air gap between that and the long tubular anode (like > that on a 1B3, but much larger) connected to the top cap. Rated for > something like 20-30KV if memory serves and about 30W plate > dissipation. SOunds to be similar ratings to the PD500. That was rated for 25kV on the anode, certainly, and I've heard a current of 1mA or so. The question why can I remember all this stuff. And why do I have service maniuals for 405-line System A TVs on the shelf still... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 28 17:18:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 23:18:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AB2764.26756.2A15F341@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 28, 7 11:24:20 am Message-ID: > Not the relay-and-resistor type, but you could often find surgistors > (ceramic disc-capacitor looking things, but I believe, made of > carbon) soldered in the filament string as part of some old sets. > > Then there were the "bulb savers"--small discs probably containing > nothing more than a carbon resistor that were placed in the bottom of > an Edison-base lamp socket between the bottom contact of the socket > and the end contact of the bulb. I wonder if these were ever > encountered in the UK--it would seem that one would interfere with > the bayonet-style lamp sockets used there. I've never seen one to be fitted between a normal bayonet lamp bulb and its socket. We did have things called 'Brimistors' which were self-heating negative tempeature coefficient thermistors, basically, and which were designed for surge limiting. Some radios (and TVs?) had them wired in series with the heater string, whether they did any real goof is a moot point ;-) The other place they were commonly used was in series with mains projector lamps (before the advent of the quartz-halogent projector bulb). -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 28 17:48:59 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:48:59 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi I agree with Tony. The only thing with enough energy was the shunt regulator. There was one other factor related to when xrays would be emitted. That was the metal that was used as the plate. Different metals would take differing amounts of energy to begin creating xrays. Each metal would produce a specific frequency until the energy ( volltage ) was great enough to knock another inner electron off the atom. Then you'd have two frequencies and so on up the spectrum. I used to have a physics book with the voltages needed for the first production of xrays of each common metal. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!? http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 28 18:06:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:06:50 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11AC3ECD-47A2-4E3B-9F7F-7A9A4060E3E6@neurotica.com> You wrote: > Then there were the "bulb savers"--small discs probably containing > nothing more than a carbon resistor that were placed in the bottom of > an Edison-base lamp socket between the bottom contact of the socket > and the end contact of the bulb. I wonder if these were ever > encountered in the UK--it would seem that one would interfere with > the bayonet-style lamp sockets used there. I've seen products that match this description (in the US) that contain a diode, which gets placed in series with the bulb. They work great if you like dim yellow light. I don't. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jul 28 18:15:25 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 16:15:25 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available References: <46AB157B.16340.29CFFDB7@cclist.sydex.com> <200707281737.l6SHbMAM000984@keith.ezwind.net> <46AB9AD5.6B3DD701@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46ABCE0C.FDD73E41@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Ignitrons are very different beasts from thyratrons. > > > > They're both gas-filled power-control devices performing similar functions. > > Mmmm...sort of. After a few beers. > > Thyratrons can contain gases or mercury (or I think, in some case, > both), and they still use a filament, much like a normal tube > (pliotron or kenotron, if any GE people are keeping score) and some > sort of grid for control, although in many thyratrons the grid looks > nothing like a grid. Thyratrons are used for control rather than > rectification, although one can rectify with them (IBMs power supply > for the 709 - they were likely used to give some sort of help in > regulating the DC output). > > Ignitrons use mercury (I have never heard of one that does not, > although krytrons are pretty similar) and do not have filaments. The > conductor is the mercury plasma created by the igniter arc, and > conduction is more or less the arc between the pool and the anode. > Ignitrons tend to be used more for rectification than control(and when > used for control, they tend to be simple on-off, rather than the more > sophisticated setups thyratrons are often see with). Not 'sort of', and one doesn't need beer to see their similarities. They are sub-classes of a common class; yes, there are differences, otherwise they wouldn't have different classification names, but the fundamental principle of using ionized gas to reduce conduction losses is the same. They are both triggerred on-off devices and ignitrons were used very much in controlled-rectification applications, their switching speed is actually reasonably fast ("usually less than 50uS"), making them fine for control in 60Hz systems, as with thyratrons. They are typically discussed in the same section in textbooks. They perform similar or nearly identical *functions* - their final *application* may typically differ due to different specs (notably higher current capacity for ignitrons), although I would suggest there are areas where their final application could cross over. To quote from a reference at hand: "The great advantage of the high-current and overload capacity of the mercury pool has been combined with the control versatility of the thyratron in the ignitron." From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 28 19:17:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:17:27 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <11AC3ECD-47A2-4E3B-9F7F-7A9A4060E3E6@neurotica.com> References: , <11AC3ECD-47A2-4E3B-9F7F-7A9A4060E3E6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46AB7A27.3080.2B59396F@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2007 at 19:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've seen products that match this description (in the US) that > contain a diode, which gets placed in series with the bulb. They > work great if you like dim yellow light. Those were later, when silicon power diodes got to be cheap. The earlier models had a negative temp coefficient hunk of carbon that actually did a better job of things, rather than lopping off alternate half-cycles. Those diode-in-a-button gizmos were worse than useless. Not only did they cut the power comsumption by *less* than half (cooler tungsten has less resistance), but it shifted the radiated spectrum toward the red something awful, so you got less than half the visible light. You still see something like this in "extra long life" incandescents. Usually rated for somewhere around 135 volts, so running them on 120v resulted in a cooler filament--and orange light. Hopefully, we'll be rid of these things with the proliferation of cheap CFLs. OTOH, RCA during WWII ran extensive advertisements advising running transmitting tubes on 90% rated filament voltage. The claim was made that one could run the tube at nearly full power with greatly increased filament life. Tubes were hard to get unless you were part of the defense effort. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jul 28 20:44:25 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 21:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AB7A27.3080.2B59396F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <11AC3ECD-47A2-4E3B-9F7F-7A9A4060E3E6@neurotica.com> <46AB7A27.3080.2B59396F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707290145.VAA02142@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Hopefully, we'll be rid of these things with the proliferation of > cheap CFLs. You mean those things with enough mercury in them they qualify as hazardous toxic waste? But which most people, not being used to the issues, will simply landfill, the way they're used to doing with light bulbs? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 28 21:09:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:09:55 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707290145.VAA02142@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <46AB7A27.3080.2B59396F@cclist.sydex.com>, <200707290145.VAA02142@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46AB9483.27866.2BC030AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2007 at 21:44, der Mouse wrote: > You mean those things with enough mercury in them they qualify as > hazardous toxic waste? But which most people, not being used to the > issues, will simply landfill, the way they're used to doing with light > bulbs? You mean, like they've already been doing with 4' and 8' fluorescent bulbs? This isn't a battle worth fighting. Folks drop used NiCd cells in the trash already, not to mention bunches of electronics with lead-bearing solder. I wonder how many folks dispose of old TVs and monitors by smashing the bottle open? How many pounds of lead does a 27" CRT have in the frit seal? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 22:10:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:10:36 -0500 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <11AC3ECD-47A2-4E3B-9F7F-7A9A4060E3E6@neurotica.com> References: <11AC3ECD-47A2-4E3B-9F7F-7A9A4060E3E6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7/28/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > You wrote: > > Then there were the "bulb savers"--small discs probably containing > > nothing more than a carbon resistor > > I've seen products that match this description (in the US) that > contain a diode, which gets placed in series with the bulb. They > work great if you like dim yellow light. Dim, yellow, _flickering_ light. ;-) Sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s, my dad made a "light dimmer" that was just a metal project box, a diode (half-wave rectifier) and a toggle switch. Flip the switch for full brightness, flip again for "dim". It worked fine, for what it was, but the dim light wasn't that good to read by. -ethan From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 28 18:56:01 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 23:56:01 +0000 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <11AC3ECD-47A2-4E3B-9F7F-7A9A4060E3E6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070729035405.UDKP8273.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > On 7/28/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > You wrote: > > > Then there were the "bulb savers"--small discs probably containing > > > nothing more than a carbon resistor > > > > I've seen products that match this description (in the US) that > > contain a diode, which gets placed in series with the bulb. They > > work great if you like dim yellow light. > > Dim, yellow, _flickering_ light. ;-) > > Sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s, my dad made a "light > dimmer" that was just a metal project box, a diode (half-wave > rectifier) and a toggle switch. Flip the switch for full brightness, > flip again for "dim". It worked fine, for what it was, but the dim > light wasn't that good to read by. > > -ethan Was moving into our current apartment years ago... I was puzzled at a 2 bulb bathroom (typical kind), one was slightly dimmer than other and flickering like mad. (my eye can see 30hz driving me nuts) So I tool bulb out to check. aha the stick on diode disc. Yanked it. SOLVED. ya'll should be concerned about keeping mercury and cadium out of landfills, tell your others and also we have to take them to the hazardous disposal that your cities/towns offers. Cheers, Wizard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 29 00:10:42 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 23:10:42 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707281207.33210.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200707271541.l6RFeQ72027171@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1B91448B-5B81-4226-B750-A54D18AA9E7A@comcast.net> <200707281207.33210.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46AC2152.3050806@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Where can one do such a thing? (Thinking about working on older stuff...) Need a Vacume? Try NASA where they test space stuff. :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 29 00:12:03 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:12:03 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AB9483.27866.2BC030AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" ---snip--- > >I wonder how many folks dispose of old TVs and monitors by smashing >the bottle open? How many pounds of lead does a 27" CRT have in the >frit seal? Most of the lead in a CRT is in the glass on the front glass. It can be much of the weight of the glass. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Jul 28 19:04:11 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:04:11 -0700 Subject: Apple III Power Supply: Success (I think...) In-Reply-To: <46AB5F3B.21770.2AF011D4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46AACC4C.3040900@msu.edu>, <098f01c7d151$fe52e4b0$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <2835AE05-D7AF-4D94-AFA0-570B3DC519AE@neurotica.com> <46AB5F3B.21770.2AF011D4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46ABD97B.10806@msu.edu> So... how do I tell whether the capacitors I've put in there are low or high ESR? Are there particular markings I should be watching out for? I just bought these from the local electronics shop, I had no idea there was anything to look out for aside from voltage & capacitance. Guess I shouldn't assume these things :). Thanks, Josh Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Jul 2007 at 18:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> Whoa, hang on there Alexandre...I've seen no correlation >> whatsoever between ESR and maximum operating temperature ratings. >> > > I can see one. If you try using a non-low-ESR cap in a SMPSU that > requires one, the temperature of said cap will rise very quickly. > > Not exactly the correlation intended, but there IS one! > > Sorry, > Chuck > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 29 00:56:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:56:32 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <46AB9483.27866.2BC030AA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46ABC9A0.31802.2C8FA7EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2007 at 22:12, dwight elvey wrote: > Most of the lead in a CRT is in the glass on the front glass. It can > be much of the weight of the glass. Dwight Nope, most of the lead (and particularly the leachable lead) is in the funnel (including frit). The panel contributes almost nothing to the lead leachate. Frit can be as much as 85% lead. See: http://www.pca.state.mn.us/oea/stewardship/es0009020.pdf Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jul 29 03:11:40 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 04:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <20070729035405.UDKP8273.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <11AC3ECD-47A2-4E3B-9F7F-7A9A4060E3E6@neurotica.com> <20070729035405.UDKP8273.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <200707290815.EAA25303@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I was puzzled at a 2 bulb bathroom (typical kind), one was slightly > dimmer than other and flickering like mad. (my eye can see 30hz > driving me nuts) So I tool bulb out to check. aha the stick on > diode disc. Yanked it. SOLVED. Um, you have the frequencies halved. Normal incandescent light flicker is 120Hz; with a diode, 60Hz. (100 and 50 for 50Hz power, of course.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 29 05:55:50 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 10:55:50 +0000 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707290815.EAA25303@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070729035405.UDKP8273.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20070729145215.GYVH19497.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > I was puzzled at a 2 bulb bathroom (typical kind), one was slightly > > dimmer than other and flickering like mad. (my eye can see 30hz > > driving me nuts) So I tool bulb out to check. aha the stick on > > diode disc. Yanked it. SOLVED. > > Um, you have the frequencies halved. Normal incandescent light flicker > is 120Hz; with a diode, 60Hz. (100 and 50 for 50Hz power, of course.) > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse Thanks! What's the reason the frequency is measured as 60hz while the "flicker" or blink rate is doubled that? The measured 60hz is one cycle while the flicker include the two peaks in one cycle? Cheers, Wizard From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 29 09:57:17 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:57:17 -0500 Subject: Cool Find at Goodwill Message-ID: <003501c7d1f0$c78e3390$1e406b43@66067007> Yesterday at while at Goodwill looking in the bins I found what looked like a strange calculator. It turns out to be the keyboard (UC-2100) for a Seiko Data 2000 computer watch. Had I knew at the time I would have been on the lookout for the watch, anyway I got the keyboard for 50 cent. Also found a lot of stuff the looks like it came form a Computerland store in FL. I ended up spending close to $40 two large boxes and five very large bags full of stuff to play with. John K. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jul 29 09:59:44 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 10:59:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <20070729145215.GYVH19497.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20070729035405.UDKP8273.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <20070729145215.GYVH19497.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <200707291503.LAA27481@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Um, you have the frequencies halved. Normal incandescent light >> flicker is 120Hz; with a diode, 60Hz. > Thanks! What's the reason the frequency is measured as 60hz while > the "flicker" or blink rate is doubled that? Because there are two brightness peaks per cycle of power; in terms of the voltage of one wire relative to the other, one for the positive peak and one for the negative peak. (And, of course, two brightness valleys, corresponding to the two zero-crossings, per cycle.) The diode, of course, cuts off one of the peaks, replacing it, and the valley on either side of it, by a single extra-wide valley. > The measured 60hz is one cycle while the flicker include the two > peaks in one cycle? If I understand you correctly here, that's a "yes". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 29 11:37:02 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:37:02 -0700 Subject: Apple III Power Supply: Success (I think...) In-Reply-To: <46ABD97B.10806@msu.edu> Message-ID: >From: Josh Dersch > >So... how do I tell whether the capacitors I've put in there are low or >high ESR? Are there particular markings I should be watching out for? I >just bought these from the local electronics shop, I had no idea there was >anything to look out for aside from voltage & capacitance. Guess I >shouldn't assume these things :). > >Thanks, >Josh > Hi Not all the caps need to be low ESR or that would be the only type made. The ones that filter the outputs of the secontary rectifiers should be low ESR. The input rectifier filter caps should be low ESR types as well but this isn't as critical. Most others are low current filters and don't have the same requirement. When used as bypass on boards, there are suppose to be high frequency caps ( ceramics and such ) to deal with the high frequency currents. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From macmonster at myrealbox.com Sun Jul 29 01:59:28 2007 From: macmonster at myrealbox.com (Stroller) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 07:59:28 +0100 Subject: Reinventing the paper terminal In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0707271758g4dc2c934xfecb3f51231e5a0f@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730707271515m57481e50q388848bd52535e7d@mail.gmail.com> <4affc5e0707271758g4dc2c934xfecb3f51231e5a0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BB47643-FDCA-475A-BDE4-E187741EB203@myrealbox.com> On 28 Jul 2007, at 01:58, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On 27/07/07, Jason T wrote: >> Well, sort-of: >> >> http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2007/07/27/email_typewrite.html > > If you look at the creator's page, these things are more design > studies/art: > (The typewriter is under "22 POP") > http://www.interaction-ivrea.it/theses/2003-04/ > householdobjectsintheact/thesis_1_intro.html > > As such this is a clever hack, and seemingly well thought out! Yes, but I'm not convinced it's the best way to solve the problem. The author / designer states the project is "inspired by [his] mother's frustration with e-mail and using a computer. She simply cannot relate to scroll bars, the mouse, control keys and so on". I can't help feel that she would cope a lot better with a simple dumb terminal and pine or mutt or whatever. Stroller. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun Jul 29 02:57:43 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:57:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Apple III Power Supply: Success (I think...) In-Reply-To: <46ABD97B.10806@msu.edu> References: <46AACC4C.3040900@msu.edu>, <098f01c7d151$fe52e4b0$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <2835AE05-D7AF-4D94-AFA0-570B3DC519AE@neurotica.com> <46AB5F3B.21770.2AF011D4@cclist.sydex.com> <46ABD97B.10806@msu.edu> Message-ID: <5382.217.225.121.73.1185695863.squirrel@217.225.121.73> Josh Dersch said: > So... how do I tell whether the capacitors I've put in there are low or > high ESR? Are there particular markings I should be watching out for? > I just bought these from the local electronics shop, I had no idea there > was anything to look out for aside from voltage & capacitance. Guess I > shouldn't assume these things :). Typically, you can't find this out from the stuff at a local shop, and in some cases the sellers who occasionally even claim to have a BA in EE, do not even know what ESR actually means :-( Best choice is to pay the price for buying from larger distributors from a catalogue, as they do specify what parameters the components have and where they come from. -- Holger From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 29 13:26:49 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:26:49 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AB2764.26756.2A15F341@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070728123339.06bd2fc8@mail> <46AB2764.26756.2A15F341@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707291426.49799.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 28 July 2007 14:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Jul 2007 at 12:34, John Foust wrote: > > An old commercial for the Wuerth Tube Saver : > > > > http://www.archive.org/details/The_Big_Idea > > Not the relay-and-resistor type, but you could often find surgistors > (ceramic disc-capacitor looking things, but I believe, made of > carbon) soldered in the filament string as part of some old sets. > > Then there were the "bulb savers"--small discs probably containing > nothing more than a carbon resistor that were placed in the bottom of > an Edison-base lamp socket between the bottom contact of the socket > and the end contact of the bulb. I wonder if these were ever > encountered in the UK--it would seem that one would interfere with > the bayonet-style lamp sockets used there. A friend of mine had one of those that was some sort of a thermistor, you'd turn the lamp on and could see it come up to full brightness way more gradually than was usual. I've also seen some containing some sort of a diode in them. And flashers. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 29 13:30:52 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:30:52 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AB8D0C.29E231C2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46AB8D0C.29E231C2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200707291430.53197.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 28 July 2007 14:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > > > Surgistors were very popular in the 50's as either an add-on for TV > > > receivers or as part of the original chassis. > > > > Filled with the finest snake oil available... > > A lot of TV's from around that period or a little later used selenium > rectifiers directly off the line (no power transformer) with a fair whop of > capacitance in the filters (very low impedance on both sides of the > rectifier). I'm guessing, but surgistors might have been used to limit > initial charge current, rather than for the sake of the filaments. Selenium > rectifiers have more ON-resistance than silicon diodes but I'm not sure if > it was enough to save the junctions in such circumstances. I remember having an assembly consisting of a pair of those, rated at 500mA (you could tell by size :-), and a couple of 100uF caps, which in those days was a pretty big cap, in a voltage-doubler configuration. I probably salvaged it out of some old TV... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 29 13:55:55 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:55:55 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: <11AC3ECD-47A2-4E3B-9F7F-7A9A4060E3E6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200707291455.55974.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 28 July 2007 23:10, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/28/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > You wrote: > > > Then there were the "bulb savers"--small discs probably containing > > > nothing more than a carbon resistor > > > > I've seen products that match this description (in the US) that > > contain a diode, which gets placed in series with the bulb. They > > work great if you like dim yellow light. > > Dim, yellow, _flickering_ light. ;-) > > Sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s, my dad made a "light > dimmer" that was just a metal project box, a diode (half-wave > rectifier) and a toggle switch. Flip the switch for full brightness, > flip again for "dim". It worked fine, for what it was, but the dim > light wasn't that good to read by. I remember building one of those... It was one of the first practical applications I found for those center-off toggle switches I started finding in some of the parts stores I used to browse in. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 29 13:57:41 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:57:41 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AC2152.3050806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200707271541.l6RFeQ72027171@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200707281207.33210.rtellason@verizon.net> <46AC2152.3050806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200707291457.42139.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 29 July 2007 01:10, woodelf wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Where can one do such a thing? (Thinking about working on older > > stuff...) > > Need a Vacume? > Try NASA where they test space stuff. :) Like they'd let me stick an old TV in one of their test chambers for (as the original post said) a month or so? Doesn't strike me as being too likely... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 29 14:13:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:13:19 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707291430.53197.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <46AB8D0C.29E231C2@cs.ubc.ca>, <200707291430.53197.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46AC845F.5843.2F691DFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2007 at 14:30, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I remember having an assembly consisting of a pair of those, rated at > 500mA (you could tell by size :-), and a couple of 100uF caps, which > in those days was a pretty big cap, in a voltage-doubler > configuration. I probably salvaged it out of some old TV... You used to be able to find them in everything from battery chargers to HO train set power supplies to TVs. They didn't make much of a splash in AM radios, particularly the "All American 5" variety. I still have the stink of hydrogen selenide from those things etched into my brain (when they went bad). Like hydrogen sulfide but more pungent--and more toxic. When you replaced them with silicon diodes in HV supply applications (IR used to offer complete clip-in cartridge diode assemblies), it was customary to include a small-value series resistance. Apparently, seleniums were better able to handle the surge from the usual pi-section filter where the input capacitor was fairly large (40-50 mfd). Older battery chargers used copper-oxide rectifiers as well as Tungar bulbs. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 29 15:02:51 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 16:02:51 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46AC845F.5843.2F691DFE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707291430.53197.rtellason@verizon.net> <46AC845F.5843.2F691DFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200707291602.51484.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 29 July 2007 15:13, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I still have the stink of hydrogen selenide from those things etched > into my brain (when they went bad). Like hydrogen sulfide but more > pungent--and more toxic. I'm not sure about the chemical involved, but that "toggle switch light dimmer" mentioned in the other post started out with a small selenium rectifier, until I overloaded it. No, there's no forgetting _that_ smell! > When you replaced them with silicon diodes in HV supply applications > (IR used to offer complete clip-in cartridge diode assemblies), it > was customary to include a small-value series resistance. This was also done when you'd take the base off an old tube and make a rectifier using silicon. Sometimes. I did that in an old tube scope one time, and didn't bother. > Older battery chargers used copper-oxide rectifiers as well as Tungar > bulbs. I remember lots of references to copper oxide rectifiers, but don't remember actually ever seeing one. My grandfather had a battery charger that used a Tungar bulb. As with a lot of other stuff he had, and elsewhere, I got into it and took it apart to find out what I could. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 29 15:04:50 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 16:04:50 -0400 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200707291604.50380.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 28 July 2007 18:48, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I agree with Tony. The only thing with enough energy was the > shunt regulator. Back when I was fixing TVs there were a bunch that had that setup, typically a 3A3 for a HV rectifier and a 6BK4 (?) for a regulator. If the set had been running a bunch of years with no service, those two would be somewhat dark, in terms of the glass actually turning a muddy color. The regulator was *always* a lot darker than the rectifier. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 29 18:14:53 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:14:53 -0400 Subject: Info requested about ebay seller newbegin-antiques In-Reply-To: <200707291604.50380.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200707292315.l6TNF0Zc009441@keith.ezwind.net> If anyone on the list has any personal knowledge or dealings good or bad about the ebay seller newbegin- antiques from Littleton, Colorado they are willing to share, please contact me ASAP! I am looking for background to assist me evaluating this seller. Feel free to contact me directly bob at IBMcollectables.com Thanks in advance. The other Bob From drb at msu.edu Sun Jul 29 18:22:44 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:22:44 -0400 Subject: Floppy imaging -- edumacate me? Message-ID: <200707292322.l6TNMi3F023226@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Dear all, You may be familiar with the phenomenon of a project list years long, and with the way it often gets ordered: "project #345 sounds interesting today." Well, this weekend, I finally managed to combine motivation, interest and parts, and assemble a working 5.25" + catweasel floppy imaging setup. This moved up the priority list because the machine I usually use to image floppies can't do SD, and these old Osborne 1 floppies have been on my desk staring at me since someone on IRC asked about Oz-ware weeks ago... I'm want to have backups of my piles of floppies, as well as to be at least a somewhat responsible preserver (in the unlikely event I actually managed to hang onto something not already widely saved), and to be able to share bits and pieces as seems appropriate. I'd like to be able to both re-create floppies as well as use the data in emulation. I understand the latter is going to require format conversions in a lot of cases, and that the necessary converters may or may not exist yet. I've used both ImageDisk and cw2dmk in the past. What I'm wondering is this: what about the DMK or IMD formats is going to cause me problems later? I prefer data images to flux images because the latter are clearly not directly usable in any emulator. I understand how a flux image enables more accurate re-creation of a real floppy, but the scope and implications of that are a bit fuzzy. I'd like to have some feel for how many things I'm going to be unable to reproduce later, how they'll go wrong, why images won't be useful to others, etc. Obviously no single solution is suitable for all applications, my mileage will vary, &c. Both of the above-mentioned are excellent pieces of work with many valid applications. I suppose I'm basically looking for war stories which illustrate particular technical issues here -- the criteria for making the choices, not the mythical "best answers". I've spent some time googling through the cctalk archives without finding the kinds of discussion I was hoping for, but I'll cheerfully accept hints about how to approach the problem that way. De From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 29 18:58:26 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 16:58:26 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707291602.51484.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: >From: "Roy J. Tellason" ---snip--- > >I remember lots of references to copper oxide rectifiers, but don't >remember >actually ever seeing one. Hi The only time I've seen these are for meter rectifiers. Low current, low voltage. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 29 19:41:21 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:41:21 -0700 Subject: Info requested about ebay seller newbegin-antiques Message-ID: <46AD33B1.7020400@bitsavers.org> > I am looking for background to assist me evaluating this seller. arrogant greedy asshole see previous classiccmp msgs about this scumbag From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 29 19:42:35 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:42:35 -0700 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <46ABC9A0.31802.2C8FA7EB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 28 Jul 2007 at 22:12, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Most of the lead in a CRT is in the glass on the front glass. It can > > be much of the weight of the glass. Dwight > >Nope, most of the lead (and particularly the leachable lead) is in >the funnel (including frit). The panel contributes almost nothing to >the lead leachate. Frit can be as much as 85% lead. > >See: http://www.pca.state.mn.us/oea/stewardship/es0009020.pdf > >Cheers, >Chuck Stand corrected. Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!? http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 29 19:54:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:54:46 -0700 Subject: Floppy imaging -- edumacate me? In-Reply-To: <200707292322.l6TNMi3F023226@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: >From: Dennis Boone > >Dear all, > >You may be familiar with the phenomenon of a project list years long, >and with the way it often gets ordered: "project #345 sounds interesting >today." > >Well, this weekend, I finally managed to combine motivation, interest >and parts, and assemble a working 5.25" + catweasel floppy imaging >setup. This moved up the priority list because the machine I usually >use to image floppies can't do SD, and these old Osborne 1 floppies have >been on my desk staring at me since someone on IRC asked about Oz-ware >weeks ago... > >I'm want to have backups of my piles of floppies, as well as to be at >least a somewhat responsible preserver (in the unlikely event I actually >managed to hang onto something not already widely saved), and to be able >to share bits and pieces as seems appropriate. I'd like to be able to >both re-create floppies as well as use the data in emulation. I >understand the latter is going to require format conversions in a lot of >cases, and that the necessary converters may or may not exist yet. I've >used both ImageDisk and cw2dmk in the past. > >What I'm wondering is this: what about the DMK or IMD formats is going >to cause me problems later? I prefer data images to flux images because >the latter are clearly not directly usable in any emulator. I >understand how a flux image enables more accurate re-creation of a real >floppy, but the scope and implications of that are a bit fuzzy. I'd >like to have some feel for how many things I'm going to be unable to >reproduce later, how they'll go wrong, why images won't be useful to >others, etc. > >Obviously no single solution is suitable for all applications, my >mileage will vary, &c. Both of the above-mentioned are excellent pieces >of work with many valid applications. I suppose I'm basically looking >for war stories which illustrate particular technical issues here -- the >criteria for making the choices, not the mythical "best answers". > >I've spent some time googling through the cctalk archives without >finding the kinds of discussion I was hoping for, but I'll cheerfully >accept hints about how to approach the problem that way. > >De Hi I don't know what format the Osborne 1 used. Once you know that, a liitle searching on the web will find how the flux transitions translate to header and data. As long as there were no errors, you should then be able to convert them to raw images. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 29 20:33:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:33:41 -0600 Subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available In-Reply-To: <200707291457.42139.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200707271541.l6RFeQ72027171@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200707281207.33210.rtellason@verizon.net> <46AC2152.3050806@jetnet.ab.ca> <200707291457.42139.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46AD3FF5.5000609@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Like they'd let me stick an old TV in one of their test chambers for (as the > original post said) a month or so? Doesn't strike me as being too likely... Well claim the tubes can do cold fusion with .... and I am sure you can get the chamber and a PHD too. :( Why can they put man on the moon in 10 years and 30 years later not have a re-usable shuttle... not the technology just 1960's politics. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jul 29 21:04:01 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:04:01 -0700 Subject: DEC BA353 Replacement fan? Message-ID: Does anyone have any advice on finding a replacement fan for a BA353-AE enclosure? I finally managed to crack open the case, and it looks to be a Nidec a33475-57 fan. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 29 21:10:55 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:10:55 -0500 Subject: stuff available, KY Message-ID: <007201c7d24e$dd62cbf0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Email me offlist if interested.... -------------------- Please reply. Hi I was wondering if you could help. I don't really want to throw this stuff away, but I need to get rid of it. My next step is to dispose of it on our "free dump day". I don't want any money, just my room back. If you know of anyone that would be willing to help me find a home for these I would greatly appreciate it. I am in the Frankfort, KY area and am willing to travel up to 2 hours. I only have 1 truck, but I can make several trips. I have a room full of computers, monitors, dot matrix printers, keyboards, mice, etc. It is more than a pickup load. I have no clue about what they are or if they are worth anything to anybody. If it's junk, please let me know that also. Here is a partial list. I haven't made it to the other end of the room or the attic yet. I haven't tested any of these. IBM Personal Computer XT - I have about 18 of these - some are 5150 and some are 5160. Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 4 - I have 4 of these 1 each of the following: Cathode Ray Oscillograph IBM PS-1 IBM PS/2 Heathkit H9 Dell 333 s/L AT&T 6386 SX/EL20 W6S Aptiva 510 Zenith Data System Z-Server EX 433DE Gateway P5-120 Macintosh Centris 660 AV Zenith Data Systems Z-433D+ AXCEL by Packard Bell Radio Shack TRS-80 Model III A couple of No Names I have about 30 more that I will need time to get info from. Printers: IBM ProPrinter Panasonic Quiet KX-P2135 24 Pin Color IBM Quietwriter III 5202 Panasonic KX-P1624 24 Pin MultiMode - I have 2 of these Epson LQ-1000 IBM 2381-001 IBM Quickwriter I have more printers, but haven't gotten to them yet. Maybe 10 or so. I do have a strange looking monitor. It says CIT-101e. I also have a lot of monitors, keyboards, and mice. There should be some complete systems in there somewhere, but I don't know what goes together. I do know that some of the monitors are monochrome. It just piled up faster than I could keep up with it. I am just putting in numbers and info that is on the machines. I don't know what is inside. Thanks, Karen From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 29 22:06:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 22:06:06 -0500 Subject: pdp11 and rsx11 available Message-ID: <013301c7d256$929dbd20$6600a8c0@JWEST> See http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/dayton for two pics. These items are located in Dayton OH. If interested, please contact me offlist. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 29 22:10:35 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 22:10:35 -0500 Subject: dec stuff available in Lindsay, Ontario, Canada Message-ID: <014d01c7d257$32d9a2e0$6600a8c0@JWEST> See http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/canada for a few pictures Contact me offlist if interested. Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 29 22:30:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy imaging -- edumacate me? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070729202824.C81401@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > I don't know what format the Osborne 1 used. Once you know that, > a liitle searching on the web will find how the flux transitions translate > to header and data. As long as there were no errors, you should then > be able to convert them to raw images. The early Osborne disks were single sided FM / single density. They had 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector. Later on, they switched to MFM / double density. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Jul 29 22:44:10 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two IBM Display Station 4978 terminals avail in Connecticut. Message-ID: <426454.61637.qm@web51606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Do not contact me, please contact owner below. Here are the pics: http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/IMGA0198.JPG http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/IMGA0199.JPG http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/IMGA0200.JPG http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/IMGA0201.JPG http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/IMGA0202.JPG Stephen Rescsanski wrote: Have to dispose of two IBM's that are in IBM boxes from the 60's that have been in my basement for years. Wife says get rid of them. If interested, you would need to pick them up or pay shipping from Conn. Need answer this week as they go. They are model 4978 with their keyboards. No idea if they are operational as I never fired them up. Steve Rescsanski --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 29 23:04:25 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:04:25 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> References: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <51ea77730707171957o435e2210r963faf89eb95b239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46AD6349.7040503@oldskool.org> Jason T wrote: > On 7/17/07, Wolfe, Julian wrote: >> I had an excellent time this year as usual, even though we initially had >> some unforseen problems getting rolling toward Purdue. Lots to see, >> and I >> had a fun time socializing(and on occasion brainstorming) with those I >> don't >> see nearly often enough. The speakers were great and very >> entertaining, and >> Rick did a great job coordinating dinner for Saturday night. As an >> exhibitor, I have to say that the turnout was way better than I thought, >> especially on Sunday. > > Yep, I had a good time as well (even if I didn't look like it all the > time.) It was great to meet people from the list as well as share a > bit of our collections with the general public. Dinner was a fine > idea and tasty to boot; I'm glad almost everyone attended. Here are > the pictures I took. There ought to be some better quality ones out > there, as I saw a few people with real cameras as well: I too had a great time. I'm completely outclassed when it comes to exhibiting (I have only 20+ machines, all 1978 and later) but I had a fun time presenting. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 29 23:08:03 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:08:03 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 3.0 thoughts In-Reply-To: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <002501c7c8b5$ea2927f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <46AD6423.9040101@oldskool.org> Wolfe, Julian wrote: > Looking forward to 4.0! Same! But now that I've met Jay West and Ethan Dicks in person, I can no longer disagree with them on any viewpoints we may have on the mailing list. VCF was like neutral holy ground ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 29 23:11:33 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:11:33 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46AD64F5.7020507@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: > If anyone can help check out 1.17, that would be much appreciated. I am more than willing to help out, except that I don't have any 8" hardware; in fact, the only reasonable testing platform I could offer is my 5160. Do you have a suggested testing regimen or test suite? If so, I'd be happy to run it on a known good controller/drive/floppy. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 29 23:15:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:15:06 -0500 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <46AD65CA.6000204@oldskool.org> Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > Does anyone make an interface card that will permit a "thumb drive" to be > addressed by the classic machines? Not that I'm aware of, but there's always the ubiquitous CF-to-IDE adapters out there. I have one on my 5160; at VCF I saw them connected to Apple I clones, and I've heard of them connected to TRS-80s and other classic ilk. > Some time ago, I had a sound card on my Packard-Bell 486SX20 machine. It > plugged into the motherboard. There was no specific provision for it in the > BIOS, but the CD-ROM connected to it acted like a "D" drive from Windows > 3.1. I don't remember ever trying to access it from DOS, though. > > Perhaps, instead of being plugged into the motherboard, this interface could > have the hard drive's ribbon cable plugged into it. No, don't do that. Most likely an incompatible interface (soundcard CDROM interfaces were SCSI (if you were lucky) or proprietary (if you weren't)). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jul 29 23:25:31 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:25:31 -0500 Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? Message-ID: <46AD683B.1050509@oldskool.org> I've got an IBM PS/2 Model 25 that I want to put into use as an infrequently-used terminal using its serial port. I have a few questions and was wondering if someone could give me a hand: - Is there IBM PS/2 Model 25 tech and/or repair specs online somewhere? I figured out how to open the back up, but that just gets at the ISA slots. I need to get at the floppy drive; I want to know what some of the 40-pin male connectors are; etc. Which leads me to my next question: - The floppy drive is toast. Can I replace it with any regular 3.5" HD drive, or is it unconventional in some way? - The embedded monitor is ailing (it's dim, and white has a bluish tint leading me to believe that the red and green guns are giving out). Is there any way to fix that without jumping through hoops, or is it (no pun intended) terminal? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jul 29 23:33:30 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:33:30 -0500 Subject: Name that calc Message-ID: <51ea77730707292133x16cd46efm914a57a37b40a95@mail.gmail.com> I was reviewing my small calculator collection tonight and unboxed this old thing: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/946510637/ I've had it for at least ten years and had nearly forgotten about it. It's a Dietzgen with Nixies, it's got "scientific" functions, and takes a standard power cord. That's about the extent of my knowledge. Anyone know the model number on it, or other interesting details? TIA... -j From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 29 23:34:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 00:34:28 -0400 Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: <46AD683B.1050509@oldskool.org> References: <46AD683B.1050509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46AD6A54.2040807@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > I've got an IBM PS/2 Model 25 that I want to put into use as an > infrequently-used terminal using its serial port. I have a few > questions and was wondering if someone could give me a hand: > > - Is there IBM PS/2 Model 25 tech and/or repair specs online somewhere? > I figured out how to open the back up, but that just gets at the ISA > slots. I need to get at the floppy drive; I want to know what some of > the 40-pin male connectors are; etc. Which leads me to my next question: These are around. Give a look for an archive of Louis Ohland's pages. He might have some info. If he doesn't, let me know and I'll see what I can dig up. > - The floppy drive is toast. Can I replace it with any regular 3.5" HD > drive, or is it unconventional in some way? If memory serves, it takes power over its ribbon. > - The embedded monitor is ailing (it's dim, and white has a bluish tint > leading me to believe that the red and green guns are giving out). Is > there any way to fix that without jumping through hoops, or is it (no > pun intended) terminal? You have to jump through some hoops. It might be worth it just to see if you can adjust it so it'll work well enough for a little while. Or just get another one. They're around. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 29 23:44:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:44:11 -0700 Subject: Classic-to-USB interface In-Reply-To: <46AD65CA.6000204@oldskool.org> References: <200707260215.l6Q2FPoZ031984@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <46AD65CA.6000204@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46AD0A2B.4861.3173BEE3@cclist.sydex.com> Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > Does anyone make an interface card that will permit a "thumb drive" > to be addressed by the classic machines? In a recent issue of EDN or ED, there was a full-page add by one of the supply houses (Mouser?) advertising a couple of little modules. One, I recall, was a USB HCI; the other was a full TCP/IP stack. Both were very small--perhaps the size of a 40-pin DIP. If I run across it again, I'll post more information. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 29 23:56:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:56:11 -0700 Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: <46AD683B.1050509@oldskool.org> References: <46AD683B.1050509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46AD0CFB.26312.317EBC26@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2007 at 23:25, Jim Leonard wrote: > I've got an IBM PS/2 Model 25 that I want to put into use as an > infrequently-used terminal using its serial port. I have a few > questions and was wondering if someone could give me a hand: Well, there's the IBM .BOO stuff: http://ps-2.kev009.com:8081/ohlandl/books/ps-2_books.html and a bit more here: http://www.walshcomptech.com/selectpccbbs/ Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Jul 29 23:55:20 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:55:20 -0700 Subject: Tektonix 4632 Video printer on Ebay Message-ID: <46AD6F38.9000501@msm.umr.edu> Anyone looking for Tek terminal stuff? This specimen looks pretty clean, and might be something of interest to the Tek Terminal collectors here. Jim 260133525847 From cc at corti-net.de Mon Jul 30 03:47:40 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:47:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Tektonix 4632 Video printer on Ebay In-Reply-To: <46AD6F38.9000501@msm.umr.edu> References: <46AD6F38.9000501@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, jim wrote: > Anyone looking for Tek terminal stuff? This specimen looks pretty clean, and > might be something of interest to the Tek Terminal collectors here. > 260133525847 We have at least two of them, they aren't worth a cent. You need very special silver paper in metal cans (protection from light), and you can't buy this paper any more (and if you could, you wouldn't be willing to pay the price). The paper is photosensitive, and even if you manage to find some old unused stock of this paper, it will have expired since many many years. Christian From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Jul 30 03:07:46 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 09:07:46 +0100 Subject: stuff available, KY In-Reply-To: <007201c7d24e$dd62cbf0$6600a8c0@JWEST> References: <007201c7d24e$dd62cbf0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <1185782866.20879.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Sun, 2007-07-29 at 21:10 -0500, Jay West wrote: > I do have a strange looking monitor. It says CIT-101e. > Wonder if it's similar to my CIT-101, and what the differences are? Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 09:39:40 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 09:39:40 -0500 Subject: stuff available, KY In-Reply-To: <1185782866.20879.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <007201c7d24e$dd62cbf0$6600a8c0@JWEST> <1185782866.20879.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Sun, 2007-07-29 at 21:10 -0500, Jay West wrote: > > > I do have a strange looking monitor. It says CIT-101e. > > > > Wonder if it's similar to my CIT-101, and what the differences are? I have some of each of CIT-101 and CIT-101e. Of the ones I have, the CIT-101s closely resemble VT100s, the CIT-101es loosely resembled soft-edged Wyse 50s. Functionally, they are much the same. We used to do multiple-session (using the printer port) on the 101e and not the 101, so perhaps there are some minor feature differences. Perhaps the 101e lacks the "setup clock" of the 101, but as I said, overall, they are much the same. Good solid terminals. We used to have a lot of them where I worked 20 years ago, since they were substantially less expensive than DEC terminals, new. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 30 09:55:57 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:55:57 -0700 Subject: S100 proto board to trade In-Reply-To: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: Hi I have a need for an edge connector with the same spacing as a S100 board. I also have this really nice S100 board but I'm reluctent to cut it up. It has an address decoder for I/O, 5V regulator and buffers for the bus as well as proto area. It is just too nice to cut up. I'd rather cut up a simpler board that doesn't have the nice interface on it. Does anyone in the South Bay ( Sunnyvale ) area have a plain S100 proto board they'd like to swap for the one I have? Just a blank proto board would be more what I'm looking for. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 30 10:38:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:38:34 -0700 Subject: stuff available, KY In-Reply-To: <1185782866.20879.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <007201c7d24e$dd62cbf0$6600a8c0@JWEST>, <1185782866.20879.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <46ADA38A.11701.33CAD763@cclist.sydex.com> On Sun, 2007-07-29 at 21:10 -0500, Jay West wrote: > I do have a strange looking monitor. It says CIT-101e. We used a pile of these back around 1984. VT-100-type terminals, very rugged and much cheaper than the DEC VT-100s. Good workhorses. I think the 101e has an amber screen phosphor, but it's been many years since I last used one. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 30 10:41:22 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 09:41:22 -0600 Subject: Tektonix 4632 Video printer on Ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:55:20 -0700. <46AD6F38.9000501@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <46AD6F38.9000501 at msm.umr.edu>, jim writes: > Anyone looking for Tek terminal stuff? This specimen looks pretty > clean, and might be something of interest to the Tek Terminal collectors > here. I believe this is the item that's been relisted about 6 times, each time dropping $5-10 in price. The problem with the Tek printers from this era is that the paper (silver halide) is unobtainium and has a shelf life that long since expired anyway. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 10:43:55 2007 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:43:55 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer Message-ID: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> Hello, everyone. My name is Joe, I am 17 years old, and live in central NJ. I would like to figure out how to build a retro-type computer, either from plans or from a kit. I am currently considering the Micro-KIM, as well as trying to build a mark-8. Not sure what I want to do. If anyone can help me along with this, I would be very appreciative. Thanks Joe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 11:11:40 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:11:40 -0500 Subject: stuff available, KY In-Reply-To: <46ADA38A.11701.33CAD763@cclist.sydex.com> References: <007201c7d24e$dd62cbf0$6600a8c0@JWEST> <1185782866.20879.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46ADA38A.11701.33CAD763@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On Sun, 2007-07-29 at 21:10 -0500, Jay West wrote: > > > I do have a strange looking monitor. It says CIT-101e. > > We used a pile of these back around 1984. VT-100-type terminals, > very rugged and much cheaper than the DEC VT-100s. Good workhorses. > > I think the 101e has an amber screen phosphor, but it's been many > years since I last used one. You may very well have used an amber 101e, but, like the VT220 that came out later, I think it was a customer-specifiable option. My recollection of our 101s and 101es from 1984 is that we had mostly amber 101s, and mostly green 101es. I still have a pile of them, but I haven't used one in years (the most recent dumb terminals I've had out were my Planar ELT320s... very nice, and tiny). I agree, though; the C Itoh terminals were rugged and much cheaper (in the day) than VT-100s. They also all had the "Advanced Video Option" (AVO), unlike a genuine VT-100 (vs a VT-101 or VT-102), thus 132 column mode wasn't half-height. I think we did have a few real VT-100s, but, obviously, we didn't use them for wide-screen work. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 11:26:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:26:25 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Hello, everyone. My name is Joe, I am 17 years old, and live in central NJ. > I would like to figure out how to build a retro-type computer, either from > plans or from a kit. I am currently considering the Micro-KIM, as well as > trying to build a mark-8. Not sure what I want to do. If anyone can help me > along with this, I would be very appreciative. Hi, Joe, I have looked at the Micro-KIM and think it's a really neat kit. I don't have one yet, but I'll be ordering a bare board as soon as Vince has filled all of the full-kit orders. If you are going to build any kit, ensure you have a reasonable-quality soldering iron. I used to built kits in High School with a cheap Radio Shack soldering iron, and it shows in the inferior workmanship. At my first college job, I was adding ECO (blue) wires with a Weller temperature-controlled soldering "station" (which went with me when the company closed, and was using last night on a Spare Time Gizmos kit). This soldering iron cost my former employer about $250 in the early 1980s, and it still works! It's worth spending a bit on tools that will last for decades and help you produce good product. Metcals are really nice irons, but I haven't run across the right deal yet. If you go to any Hamfests, you might be able to pick up an old Weller for well under $50. New ones, though, are still expensive. If you are already experienced with soldering, you can skip this step, but you might want to consider picking up some inexpensive Ramsey or similar kits for practice. I still have some of my early examples, and, I gotta say, practice does make perfect. The other thing to consider when building a kit is what you are going to do with it when you are done. A working computer that isn't interesting is going to sit on the shelf, assembled but unloved. If you are interested in the 6502, the MicroKIM is an excellent kit to built - there are lots of books on the 'net from the KIM days, and plenty of example code to get you started. It's one of my favorite processors (I got my start on the Commodore PET). Another processor from those days to consider is the 1802. They are still making them, amazingly enough; and old chips can he had for as little as $5 (though $20 is more common - new ones are closer to $90). Bob Armstrong still has Elf 2000 boards and partial kits, so you'd have to be willing to order the rest of your parts - not necessarily recommended for a first kit. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Elf2K.htm Besides toggle switches and hex LEDs, if you spend a bit more and can handle soldering an SMT CF connector, the Elf 2000 has a disk board and an operating system. Once you load the OS, you can even play Zork on the Elf 2000, if that sort of thing appeals to you. Personally, while the Mark-8 has its place in history, I think it's not as interesting of a modern kit to build. The processor is limited, software examples sparse, and the original Mark-8, at least, was difficult, from a technical standpoint, to build. It's one that I haven't been eager to tackle, even though I do happen to have an 8008 or two on hand. So... I happen to think a 6502 or 1802 would be most interesting to play with after you've built one, but the Mark-8 has some undeniable nerd factor to it. I'm sure you will find plenty of offers for answers and advice here, no matter what you choose to build. Good luck, -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 30 11:48:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 09:48:07 -0700 Subject: stuff available, KY In-Reply-To: References: <007201c7d24e$dd62cbf0$6600a8c0@JWEST>, <46ADA38A.11701.33CAD763@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46ADB3D7.26430.340A89A5@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jul 2007 at 11:11, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I agree, though; the C Itoh terminals were rugged and much cheaper (in > the day) than VT-100s. They also all had the "Advanced Video Option" > (AVO), unlike a genuine VT-100 (vs a VT-101 or VT-102), thus 132 > column mode wasn't half-height. I think we did have a few real > VT-100s, but, obviously, we didn't use them for wide-screen work. There were better terminals than the VT-100s and VT-220s. My recollection of a particularly good one is a 220-type model made by TAB Equipment. It had a keyboard to die for. Sometime around then, Wyse started offering their VT-100 compatibles. I didn't like them much, but they were certainly inexpensive compared to the competition. I didn't put much time in on the CIT-101s--I brought my IBM 5150 to the office with a homebrew 8" Shugart hard disk box and downloaded my files from the VAX 11/750, edited them, then uploaded them for compiling. I used a surplus 19" green-screen monitor in a plywood box that I built that was the subject of much ridicule--but I had a great big display and great (clicky) keyboard--and I could work while the VAX was offline. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 30 11:51:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 09:51:56 -0700 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <46ADB4BC.31570.340E04E3@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jul 2007 at 11:26, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So... I happen to think a 6502 or 1802 would be most interesting to > play with after you've built one, but the Mark-8 has some undeniable > nerd factor to it. Don't forget the IM6100/PDP-8 based kits. I don't know how readily available parts are, but there is certainly a bunch of software written for that platform. On a side, but related, issue--has anyone produced a MicroNOVA kit? And is software available for that platform--or has it been locked up? Cheers, Chuck From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 12:07:23 2007 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:07:23 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550707301007n2904d7bds3e54008cc0a29c85@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Ethan. I do have a good soldering iron, a non variable Weller that my father got in the trash at AT&T about 20 years ago. Still works very well, although it could use a new tip. I just finished recently soldering connectors onto a board for an old pinball machine I have, which now works very well. I have also built two kits from Ramsey, an electrocardiogram machine and a color organ. My soldering skill is pretty good I think. I'm leaning more towards the KIM at this point, mainly because of all the documentation, as well as the expandability. I'd like to have something that I can eventually program on a CRT and keyboard. On 7/30/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 7/30/07, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > Hello, everyone. My name is Joe, I am 17 years old, and live in central > NJ. > > I would like to figure out how to build a retro-type computer, either > from > > plans or from a kit. I am currently considering the Micro-KIM, as well > as > > trying to build a mark-8. Not sure what I want to do. If anyone can help > me > > along with this, I would be very appreciative. > > Hi, Joe, > > I have looked at the Micro-KIM and think it's a really neat kit. I > don't have one yet, but I'll be ordering a bare board as soon as Vince > has filled all of the full-kit orders. > > If you are going to build any kit, ensure you have a > reasonable-quality soldering iron. I used to built kits in High > School with a cheap Radio Shack soldering iron, and it shows in the > inferior workmanship. At my first college job, I was adding ECO > (blue) wires with a Weller temperature-controlled soldering "station" > (which went with me when the company closed, and was using last night > on a Spare Time Gizmos kit). This soldering iron cost my former > employer about $250 in the early 1980s, and it still works! It's > worth spending a bit on tools that will last for decades and help you > produce good product. Metcals are really nice irons, but I haven't > run across the right deal yet. If you go to any Hamfests, you might > be able to pick up an old Weller for well under $50. New ones, > though, are still expensive. > > If you are already experienced with soldering, you can skip this step, > but you might want to consider picking up some inexpensive Ramsey or > similar kits for practice. I still have some of my early examples, > and, I gotta say, practice does make perfect. > > The other thing to consider when building a kit is what you are going > to do with it when you are done. A working computer that isn't > interesting is going to sit on the shelf, assembled but unloved. If > you are interested in the 6502, the MicroKIM is an excellent kit to > built - there are lots of books on the 'net from the KIM days, and > plenty of example code to get you started. It's one of my favorite > processors (I got my start on the Commodore PET). > > Another processor from those days to consider is the 1802. They are > still making them, amazingly enough; and old chips can he had for as > little as $5 (though $20 is more common - new ones are closer to $90). > Bob Armstrong still has Elf 2000 boards and partial kits, so you'd > have to be willing to order the rest of your parts - not necessarily > recommended for a first kit. > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Elf2K.htm > > Besides toggle switches and hex LEDs, if you spend a bit more and can > handle soldering an SMT CF connector, the Elf 2000 has a disk board > and an operating system. Once you load the OS, you can even play Zork > on the Elf 2000, if that sort of thing appeals to you. > > Personally, while the Mark-8 has its place in history, I think it's > not as interesting of a modern kit to build. The processor is > limited, software examples sparse, and the original Mark-8, at least, > was difficult, from a technical standpoint, to build. It's one that I > haven't been eager to tackle, even though I do happen to have an 8008 > or two on hand. > > So... I happen to think a 6502 or 1802 would be most interesting to > play with after you've built one, but the Mark-8 has some undeniable > nerd factor to it. > > I'm sure you will find plenty of offers for answers and advice here, > no matter what you choose to build. > > Good luck, > > -ethan > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 12:28:46 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:28:46 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46ADB4BC.31570.340E04E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <46ADB4BC.31570.340E04E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jul 2007 at 11:26, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Don't forget the IM6100/PDP-8 based kits. I don't know how readily > available parts are, but there is certainly a bunch of software > written for that platform. Plenty of software, but STG sold out of boards a while back. Of course, one could start with the STG6120 design and use a pair of modern byte-wide SRAMs and build an STG6120 on a perfboard, but it's a lot of work (having hand-wired an Elf). It's a bit tough to find CPU chips, though. I did see a reference float by to a surplus house that has IM6120 CPUs (probably pulls from DECmate IIs), but the CPU chips are the hardware thing to come by. Bob has been discussing, in very general terms, a future IM6100 project, but nothing concrete has come out of the discussions, yet. That'll be one to look for next. I have a few IM6100s I picked up from a surplus vendor in 2003, so if I can remember where I put them, I'm ready to go for that project, too. There is _lots_ of software for that platform, of course. The PDP-8 has a rich history. I've been re-reading a book on processor design I picked up a few years ago, based on a recommendation on this list. I am blanking on the title, but it describes a 74183/74181-based F20 and a 2910-based microprogrammed F30 PDP-8/i-compatible CPU. I've been mulling over what it would take to build one of those (besides lots of time ;-) > On a side, but related, issue--has anyone produced a MicroNOVA kit? > And is software available for that platform--or has it been locked > up? I haven't seen any references to any Nova replicas, but there is a Nova emulator as part of the simh suite. That'd be a place to start to see what the state of available Nova software looks like. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 12:31:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:31:39 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550707301007n2904d7bds3e54008cc0a29c85@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <2b1f1f550707301007n2904d7bds3e54008cc0a29c85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Thanks Ethan. I do have a good soldering iron, a non variable Weller that my > father got in the trash at AT&T about 20 years ago. Still works very well, > although it could use a new tip. Well done, then. Spend a few bucks on a new tip or two. For SMT work, I like at least a 1/32" tip, but for QFPs, you can do well with a blunter tip, lots of flux, and a "raking" motion to flow solder over all the pins on a side at once. Fine tips are nice for 1206 and 805 parts. > I just finished recently soldering > connectors onto a board for an old pinball machine I have, which now works > very well. I have also built two kits from Ramsey, an electrocardiogram > machine and a color organ. My soldering skill is pretty good I think. You sound well prepared, then. > I'm leaning more towards the KIM at this point, mainly because of all the > documentation, as well as the expandability. I'd like to have something that > I can eventually program on a CRT and keyboard. I think the MicroKIM is an excellent choice, but I wanted to suggest a few others, since I didn't know your background or preferences. Best of luck with your efforts, -ethan From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jul 30 12:46:16 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (Chris Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:46:16 -0700 Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? Message-ID: Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial... The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e keyboard to be used on a modern computer. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jul 30 13:21:27 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <337855.60405.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Has anybody come up with a easy to implement > solution for connecting > an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e > keyboard) to a > modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try > to wrap my head > around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial... I've done it a couple of times, only I used a rather "brute force" method... I was disappointed with the low quality of modern USB keyboards, and I wanted something better on my Macintosh. I got ahold of a Zenith terminal keyboard from a surplus dealer(unencoded matrix type), and I loved the feel of the keys (same style keyboard mechanism as in the Z100). I took apart a junky Compaq USB keyboard, and traced out the matrix. Then, I took a dremel tool and cut all the traces on the back of the Zenith keyboard, and wired it up in the same matrix as the Compaq keyboard, and hooked it up to the Compaq keyboard's encoder board. Voila! Zenith USB keyboard. Of course, I was originally intending to build a case for it (all I ever had was the bare keyboard mechanism) but I haven't gotten around to it. I've used it daily for the last two years, it's just sitting on the desk, no case, lote of little wires connecting to the exposed encoder board. But it works. I have also done this to an Apple IIe keyboard, connecting it to a PS/2 style keyboard encoder. Definitely not the elegant way to do it, but it works, and it's "easy". -Ian From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jul 30 14:50:31 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:50:31 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <46AD64F5.7020507@oldskool.org> References: <200707251105.l6PB5jUa011308@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200707301854.l6UIs0AW011354@hosting.monisys.ca> > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > If anyone can help check out 1.17, that would be much appreciated. > > I am more than willing to help out, except that I don't have any 8" > hardware; in fact, the only reasonable testing platform I could offer is > my 5160. Do you have a suggested testing regimen or test suite? If so, > I'd be happy to run it on a known good controller/drive/floppy. I don't have a set test quite ... I mainly wanted people to be aware that there is a new version with higher than normal potential for problems - if you have some disks to do, please give 1.17 a try, then recreate the disks and verify that they come out usable - if any problems, please let me know ASAP. I've run a fair number of images through it now, but it always seems others have a way of excercising the one little bit that I didn't and finding problems that slipped by... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jul 30 14:52:46 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:52:46 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: References: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200707301856.l6UIuJDw012076@hosting.monisys.ca> > One other thing. Ususally one doesn't see this one but on a machine I > put together, using a different processor, on one command I was > able to beet the busy response of the controller chip. It was on only > one command but I don't recall which command. > If the PC is running the bus faster than the 765 is clocking, one can > be too quick. > I recall putting a short delay to make sure the status read was coorrect. > I know it was this because I did an experiment that I'd read it twice. > The second read was OK but not the first. Thanks - I hadn't thought about that, and I'll look into it. Funny thing about PCs - slower CPU (even significantly slower) doesn't necessarily mean slower time between I/O accesses... This could be a factor. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 30 14:05:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:05:12 -0400 Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BB1EA9B-EC17-4A67-BDC8-B4C12195C90C@neurotica.com> On Jul 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Chris Sullivan wrote: > Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for > connecting an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e > keyboard) to a modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try > to wrap my head around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial... > > The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e > keyboard to be used on a modern computer. Actually I'd consider it a pretty easy task. I'd get one of the USB-enabled PIC microcontrollers (16C745 for example) and start with one of the HID examples. Not difficult at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jul 30 14:06:23 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: <337855.60405.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Jul 30, 2007 11:21:27 AM Message-ID: <200707301906.l6UJ6NOO017219@onyx.spiritone.com> > I've done it a couple of times, only I used a rather > "brute force" method... I was disappointed with the > low quality of modern USB keyboards, and I wanted > something better on my Macintosh. I got ahold of a > Zenith terminal keyboard from a surplus > dealer(unencoded matrix type), and I loved the feel of > the keys (same style keyboard mechanism as in the > Z100). I have to agree about USB keyboards in general, the keyboard that came with my G5 2x2 actaully isn't that bad (I use it on my IBM Thinkpad), I just don't like the lack of a place to put junk above the keys. For my last two Mac's I've used my 10+ year old Apple Extended Keyboard II via an ADB-to-USB convertor. For several years I also used the ADB II Mouse (replacing one worn out one), however, I finally switched to USB when I switched to Mac OS X so I'd have 3 buttons for X-Windows. Personally I consider mice to be as much of an issue as keyboards, the only ones I really like are the classic 3-button Logitech mice used on numerous workstations in the late '90's. I really wish they made a USB one that size/shape with a scroll wheel. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 30 14:21:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:21:58 -0700 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <200707301856.l6UIuJDw012076@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca>, , <200707301856.l6UIuJDw012076@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46ADD7E6.31924.349761C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jul 2007 at 14:52, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Thanks - I hadn't thought about that, and I'll look into it. Funny > thing about PCs - slower CPU (even significantly slower) doesn't > necessarily mean slower time between I/O accesses... This could be a > factor. I'd suggest using a couple of transitions of the 50 usec. "refresh" flag. It's part of the legacy PC design and is present on almost anything PC-AT and later. Simple and consistent without bothering with calibrating program loops. Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jul 30 14:27:06 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:27:06 -0300 Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? References: Message-ID: <0c9e01c7d2df$c1b038c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting an > ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a modern > computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head around this > problem, and it seems... non-trivial... > The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e > keyboard to be used on a modern computer. If you are looking for a PS/2 unit, it is fairly easy to do something using an Atmel microcontroller and BASCOM basic compiler. USB will be a lot harder... From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jul 30 14:33:46 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:33:46 -0500 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <46ADD7E6.31924.349761C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca>, , <200707301856.l6UIuJDw012076@hosting.monisys.ca> <46ADD7E6.31924.349761C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46AE3D1A.7020204@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jul 2007 at 14:52, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> Thanks - I hadn't thought about that, and I'll look into it. Funny >> thing about PCs - slower CPU (even significantly slower) doesn't >> necessarily mean slower time between I/O accesses... This could be a >> factor. > > I'd suggest using a couple of transitions of the 50 usec. "refresh" > flag. It's part of the legacy PC design and is present on almost > anything PC-AT and later. I've never heard of this. Are you talking about monitoring a bit in the 8253? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jul 30 14:45:51 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: <0c9e01c7d2df$c1b038c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Jul 30, 2007 04:27:06 PM Message-ID: <200707301945.l6UJjpvn018033@onyx.spiritone.com> > If you are looking for a PS/2 unit, it is fairly easy to do something > using an Atmel microcontroller and BASCOM basic compiler. USB will be a lot > harder... > Would it then be possible for the OP to convert the keyboard to PS/2 and use a PS/2-to-USB converter? Zane From martinm at allwest.net Mon Jul 30 14:50:58 2007 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:50:58 -0600 Subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard?) In-Reply-To: <1BB1EA9B-EC17-4A67-BDC8-B4C12195C90C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001601c7d2e2$f6455810$0202a8c0@p4266> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Cc: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General at looneymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com Subject: Re: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 Sorry to hear about Ophelia - you have mentioned what a good cat she was and how she liked to curl up on your equipment. Martin Marshall From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 14:53:21 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:53:21 -0500 Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: <0c9e01c7d2df$c1b038c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <0c9e01c7d2df$c1b038c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting an > > ASCII keyboard... to a modern > > computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head around this > > problem, and it seems... non-trivial... > > The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e > > keyboard to be used on a modern computer. > > If you are looking for a PS/2 unit, it is fairly easy to do something > using an Atmel microcontroller and BASCOM basic compiler. USB will be a lot > harder... USB isn't a lot harder, unless you are stuck with compiled BASIC. I agree with an earlier poster (Zane?) - take a $4 AVR, like an ATMEGA-8, then slap a software USB stack on it, along with enough local smarts to scan a matrix or handshake in an ASCII byte, then top it off by fiddling the USB stack to emit HID-compatible packets - voila, a keyboard. I've done something _similar_ to this with the usb2lcd interface by Till Harbaum to connect an HD44780-type LCD panel to "modern" machines (MacBook Pro running MacOS 10.4, various Intel boxes/laptops running RedHat Linux, _and_ an XP box). At the core of it is a $4 controller running at 12MHz, doing the USB protocol in software. The only hitch I've found so far is that with the MacBook, it seems that I need these "optional" 3.6V zeners to "cool off" the USB interface which is spec'ed at 3.3V (I am running it through a USB hub at the moment, which regenerates inputs to a proper voltage level for the laptop). Since it's a keyboard the OP is after, one can also do what another earlier poster did - scavenge a USB keyboard PCB, map the grid, then wire a keyboard to the grid. I did that with a keyboard last year - the original fault was a bad cable (broken insulation in the green wire). I clipped off a few inches of the cable, resoldered it, then wired the PCB to a 2"x3" protoboard so I could choose which parts of the matrix to tap off. The final step was to mount the PCB and protoboard inside an old short-haul modem clamshell case, then stick 5 pushbuttons on the top of the case and wire them to Z, X, C, V, and B - I now have a fits-in-your-pocket xmms remote keyboard. The only problem I've had so far was when I plugged it into this MacBook - 10.4 didn't like the controller I re-used, and popped up a requester to hit the key to the right of the shift. Fortunately, I had already _mapped_ the "Z" key to my row of pushbuttons and just last night was running xmms and using the small box to start and stop and forward through my playlist. (I built this for roadtrips to avoid having to reach for the keyboard while driving). So... if it looks too hard to re-jigger an Apple IIe keyboard matrix, an ATMEGA-8 at 12MHz w/freeware software USB stack is an easy way to go. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 30 15:01:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:01:34 -0700 Subject: Imagedisk 1.17 In-Reply-To: <46AE3D1A.7020204@oldskool.org> References: <200707281040.l6SAevYf027200@hosting.monisys.ca>, <46ADD7E6.31924.349761C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <46AE3D1A.7020204@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46ADE12E.32714.34BBA23E@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jul 2007 at 14:33, Jim Leonard wrote: > I've never heard of this. Are you talking about monitoring a bit in > the 8253? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) Bit 4, port 61h. You can use a simple toggle test to see if it's there, but on just about every system I've ever seen, it is. One of the holdovers from the PC-AT architecture. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 30 17:21:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:21:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e, In-Reply-To: <001601c7d2e2$f6455810$0202a8c0@p4266> from "Martin Marshall" at Jul 30, 7 01:50:58 pm Message-ID: > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 > > > Sorry to hear about Ophelia - you have mentioned what a good cat she was and > how she liked to curl up on your equipment. Let me add my condolences too :-(. Many a late night of hacking has been made more pleasant for me by my previous cat 'Homer' (who was run over by an idiot who thought his right not to be late was more important than Homer's right to live) and my current cat 'Pentina'. I can well understand the loss you must feel. What is it about old computers and cats. Quite a few people who like the former like the latter... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 30 16:57:36 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tektonix 4632 Video printer on Ebay In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Jul 30, 7 10:47:40 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, jim wrote: > > Anyone looking for Tek terminal stuff? This specimen looks pretty clean, and > > might be something of interest to the Tek Terminal collectors here. > > 260133525847 > > We have at least two of them, they aren't worth a cent. You need very If anyone knows of a 'spare' one in the London (UK) area, I'll give a bit more than a cent for it ;-). I'd actually quite like one, not to _use_, but as an example of a somewhat odd printing technology (remember I find interest in things other than just CPUs...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 30 16:54:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:54:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: <46AD683B.1050509@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jul 29, 7 11:25:31 pm Message-ID: > - The floppy drive is toast. Can I replace it with any regular 3.5" HD > drive, or is it unconventional in some way? Some PS/2s used a spaecial floppy drive with, IIRC, a 40 pin card edge connecotr which carried both the logic signals and power. The signals were fairly conventional, though, and I might be able to dig out a pinout of the connnector if you need it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 30 17:08:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:08:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> from "Joe Giliberti" at Jul 30, 7 11:43:55 am Message-ID: > > Hello, everyone. My name is Joe, I am 17 years old, and live in central NJ. > I would like to figure out how to build a retro-type computer, either from > plans or from a kit. I am currently considering the Micro-KIM, as well as > trying to build a mark-8. Not sure what I want to do. If anyone can help me > along with this, I would be very appreciative. I think the first thing for you to do is to work out what you want to do, or what you want the computer to do. A few thoughts. 1) Do you want to make a clone of one of the well-known early-ish micros? 2) Do you even want to make a microcomputer at all, or would you like to make your own process for gates and flip-flops (it doesn't that _that_ many chip,s I think it can be done in under 100 TTL packages)? 3) Do you want to run commeraical (of 30 years ago :-)) software, or will you be happy with a mcachine code monitor and entering your own little programs on toggle switchss or a hex keypad? Others have mentioned the need for a good soldering iron. I'll go along with that (I use an old Weller). But actually, the good ireon is more important for taking things off the PCB (when you make a mistake) without damaging the PCB. In general you can solder the PCB with just about any iron. What about test equipment? Particularly if you design your own machine, or work from just a shcematic, it is _not_ going to work properly first time (that is the voice of experience, I can assure you). You will have to debug it. Now I debugged my first homebrew computer (Z80 based) using nothing more than an analogue multimeter (VOM) and an LED+resistor to look at logic states. I don't recomend it!. A 'scope is very useful, so is a logic analyser. One final point. Much has been said in the past about unreliabiltiy caused by IC sockets. This may well be an issue for commercial boards, but for homebrew prototypes (as you are considering building), I would recomend using turned=pin DIL sockets for _everything_ unless there's a good electrical reason (stray capacistance or inductance, for example) for not doing. Having ICs in sockets makes debugging a lot easier. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 30 17:12:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:12:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: from "Chris Sullivan" at Jul 30, 7 10:46:16 am Message-ID: > > Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting > an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a > modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head > around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial... I thought, from the Apple //e Technical Manual, that unlike the older Apple ][s, the keyboard on the //e was just a matrix of switches and the encoder chip was on the mainboard. So it's not strickly an ASCII keyboard. > > The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e > keyboard to be used on a modern computer. I've not done _anything_ with USB (mainly because none of my computers have that interface). but I keep on reading about microcontorllers with USB 'slave' interfaces. It should be possible to use one of those to either accept ASCII+strobe from an encoded keyboard (e.g. an Apple ][ one) or to scan a matrix of switches. Note I am not saying it's trivial. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jul 30 17:31:33 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > Sorry to hear about Ophelia - you have mentioned what a good cat she > > was and how she liked to curl up on your equipment. > > Let me add my condolences too :-(. Many a late night of hacking has been > made more pleasant for me by my previous cat 'Homer' (who was run over > by an idiot who thought his right not to be late was more important than > Homer's right to live) and my current cat 'Pentina'. I can well > understand the loss you must feel. > > What is it about old computers and cats. Quite a few people who like the > former like the latter... -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 30 17:35:51 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:35:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <888248.84599.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Well, I like all animals. We used to have a tabby cat that liked to come into our back garden and sit in the shade. He/she knew they wouldn't be pestered by us. Occasionally he/she would dileberately try to look cute (by raising his/her paw) in order to get some extra tit-bits (usually chicken). At present we have some squirrels that regularly (almost daily) come after the nuts we put out for the birds. We even had some wild mice living under our shed at one point, a few years ago. A neighbours rabbit managed to tunnel it's way under the fence before and we have had plenty of other occasional visitors too (frog/toad, kestrel (feeding on another smaller bird) and pigeons). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tony Duell wrote: Let me add my condolences too :-(. Many a late night of hacking has been made more pleasant for me by my previous cat 'Homer' (who was run over by an idiot who thought his right not to be late was more important than Homer's right to live) and my current cat 'Pentina'. I can well understand the loss you must feel. What is it about old computers and cats. Quite a few people who like the former like the latter... -tony From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 18:17:49 2007 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:17:49 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for your advice, Tony. To address question #1, I'm honestly not too sure. I figure ha wih the early micros, there is documentation, where as something completely homebrew, there is little, if any. What I need to find is a good resource for electronic circuit design. I have a book called "How to Build Your Own Working Microcomputer" that I bought for under a dollar at a thrift store. I still need to finish it, but it doesn't seem to be much help in that respect. As for your second question, I would find it to be really fascinating to build a computer out of TTL, but again, I need some kind of resource to guide me through it. All my knowledge on electronic circuitry is very basic right now. My father, an electrical engineer, tells be that he couldn't even do it after six years of college(although, he graduated 20 years ago), so I'm not very hopeful that I could. Third, commercial software would be nice, but I don't need it. I would very much like to learn machine code. I figure that when I start college interviews in a year going toward something in the technology field, I'd like to have as much pre-knowledge of computer science as I can. I figure that there's no better way than to build and program a computer. It will take me a long time, but it would be worth it. In addition to my trusty Weller Iron, I do have an old Hitachi Oscilloscope and a Hewlett Packard Digital Multimeter. If absolutely necessary, I could try and find a logic analyzer, but thats one of those things I don't quite have the money for. Finally, I would most definitely use chip sockets. I don't want to risk heat damage to components if I can just solder in sockets and install the actual ICs later. It may not be as good for reliability, but it is better for ease of design and construction On 7/30/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Hello, everyone. My name is Joe, I am 17 years old, and live in central > NJ. > > I would like to figure out how to build a retro-type computer, either > from > > plans or from a kit. I am currently considering the Micro-KIM, as well > as > > trying to build a mark-8. Not sure what I want to do. If anyone can help > me > > along with this, I would be very appreciative. > > I think the first thing for you to do is to work out what you want to do, > or what you want the computer to do. > > A few thoughts. > > 1) Do you want to make a clone of one of the well-known early-ish micros? > > 2) Do you even want to make a microcomputer at all, or would you like to > make your own process for gates and flip-flops (it doesn't that _that_ > many chip,s I think it can be done in under 100 TTL packages)? > > 3) Do you want to run commeraical (of 30 years ago :-)) software, or will > you be happy with a mcachine code monitor and entering your own little > programs on toggle switchss or a hex keypad? > > Others have mentioned the need for a good soldering iron. I'll go along > with that (I use an old Weller). But actually, the good ireon is more > important for taking things off the PCB (when you make a mistake) without > damaging the PCB. In general you can solder the PCB with just about any > iron. > > What about test equipment? Particularly if you design your own machine, > or work from just a shcematic, it is _not_ going to work properly first > time (that is the voice of experience, I can assure you). You will have > to debug it. Now I debugged my first homebrew computer (Z80 based) using > nothing more than an analogue multimeter (VOM) and an LED+resistor to > look at logic states. I don't recomend it!. A 'scope is very useful, so > is a logic analyser. > > One final point. Much has been said in the past about unreliabiltiy > caused by IC sockets. This may well be an issue for commercial boards, > but for homebrew prototypes (as you are considering building), I would > recomend using turned=pin DIL sockets for _everything_ unless there's a > good electrical reason (stray capacistance or inductance, for example) > for not doing. Having ICs in sockets makes debugging a lot easier. > > -tony > From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jul 30 18:21:55 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:21:55 -0400 Subject: Source code cross referencing tools? Message-ID: All: Does anyone know of a tool that will take an arbitrary list of source files (say C) and cross reference the variables and routines among the source files? Here?s the problem. I?m trying to adapt and extract a small portion of a large project for a smaller project. The header files spider all over the place and the code calls functions in several modules. In all, there?s several hundred of source files in the large project and I think I?ll probably need fragments of about 15 of them. Does this make sense to anyone? I want to take the source file I?m interested in and find out where the variables and functions are declared in other modules. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jul 30 18:27:53 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:27:53 -0800 Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46AE73F9.5060700@socal.rr.com> Chris Sullivan wrote: > Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting an > ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a modern > computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head around this > problem, and it seems... non-trivial... > > The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e > keyboard to be used on a modern computer. > You could use a IIe with a serial output card and a USB serial dongle on the PC side. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jul 30 18:55:36 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:55:36 -0700 Subject: Name that calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730707292133x16cd46efm914a57a37b40a95@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730707292133x16cd46efm914a57a37b40a95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It's a Deitzgen ESR-1. As your page says, it's an OEM version of the Casio fx-1. Casio sold the machines to Deitzgen, who just put their own modem/name/seria number tags on them, and was responsible for marketing and maintaining the within their marketplace. Sperry-Remington also OEM'd the Casio fx-1, and sold it under their brand name as the 1259S. Quite an interestng machine. It is essentially a basic four function calculator with square root, that added ROM-based "programs" using the besic functions of the machine to carry out the scientific functions. Some of the functions are very slow as a resylt. You can learn more by reading My exhibit on the Casio fx-1 at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/casiofx1.html Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Name that calc > > I was reviewing my small calculator collection tonight and > unboxed this old thing: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/946510637/ > > I've had it for at least ten years and had nearly forgotten about it. > It's a Dietzgen with Nixies, it's got "scientific" functions, > and takes a standard power cord. That's about the extent of > my knowledge. > Anyone know the model number on it, or other interesting details? > > TIA... > > -j > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 19:24:21 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:24:21 -0500 Subject: Name that calc In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730707292133x16cd46efm914a57a37b40a95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730707301724t367ca062g5385124403a44c78@mail.gmail.com> On 7/30/07, Rick Bensene wrote: > It's a Deitzgen ESR-1. As your page says, it's an OEM version of the > Casio fx-1. Casio sold the machines to Deitzgen, who just put their own > modem/name/seria number tags on them, and was responsible for marketing > and maintaining the within their marketplace. Sperry-Remington also > OEM'd the Casio fx-1, and sold it under their brand name as the 1259S. > > Quite an interestng machine. It is essentially a basic four function > calculator with square root, that added ROM-based "programs" using the > besic functions of the machine to carry out the scientific functions. > Some of the functions are very slow as a resylt. You can learn more by > reading > My exhibit on the Casio fx-1 at > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/casiofx1.html Thanks for the info, Rick. I had found your page via google once I got a private reply telling me it looked like the FX-1. I'm guessing you saw the Flickr page after I updated it :) I wasn't sure if it was a true ESR-1, since the ESR pics I found showed it with a different color face, but I figured that was just a cosmetic change. Now to get that HP nixie voltmeter working... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 30 19:43:44 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:43:44 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46AE85C0.7070404@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe Giliberti wrote: > Hello, everyone. My name is Joe, I am 17 years old, and live in central NJ. > I would like to figure out how to build a retro-type computer, either from > plans or from a kit. I am currently considering the Micro-KIM, as well as > trying to build a mark-8. Not sure what I want to do. If anyone can help me > along with this, I would be very appreciative. Expect to spend a good chunk of $$$ if you want something more than a toy. Four thousand and ninety six words of memory was still considered a large amount of memory in the mark-8 era, and many computers came with that amount. 10,000x slower than computers of today so don't expect to have much computing power, just have losts of fun. ('.~) > Thanks > Joe From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 30 19:47:40 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:47:40 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46AE86AC.5020307@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > At my first college job, I was adding ECO > (blue) wires with a Weller temperature-controlled soldering "station" > (which went with me when the company closed, and was using last night > on a Spare Time Gizmos kit). Also pick up spare tips for your iron too, you never know when you'll need a new one. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 30 19:50:30 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:50:30 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <46ADB4BC.31570.340E04E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46AE8756.4080505@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've been re-reading a book on processor design I picked up a few > years ago, based on a recommendation on this list. I am blanking on > the title, but it describes a 74183/74181-based F20 and a 2910-based > microprogrammed F30 PDP-8/i-compatible CPU. I've been mulling over > what it would take to build one of those (besides lots of time ;-) What is a F20? From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jul 30 21:02:30 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:02:30 -0600 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <46A6E286.3080700@gmail.com> References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> <46A6CD6A.1030807@brutman.com> <46A6E286.3080700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46AE9836.3030009@brutman.com> I'm still trying to make this thing talk ... Here's the quick recap. It is driven by a derivative of an Intel MCS-51. It is supposed to speak 9600 N81 over a serial port to a PC. The protocol is supposed to be simple. But I haven't been able to make it talk. I borrowed a friend's multi-meter that does frequency counting, hoping to use it as a poor man's oscilloscope. I verified it with the PC serial port - sending characters definitely makes it wiggle. Connected to the device (which is powered by an external adapter), it shows +10VDC on its pin 2 (which is 'receive' from the PC perspective), but no wiggling with the frequency counter. This confirms what I saw with my meter - a straight 10VDC signal coming out. The voltage level is fine for serial, but it is not a data stream if it is continuous. Opening the device up shows the MCS 51 feeds a Maxim chip, which is used to get the TTL voltages up to proper RS232 voltages. The input and output to the Maxim chip are behaving the same way - a continuous voltage. Kind of like the MCS 51 is fried or stuck in a loop waiting for initialization. (And of course, I don't know what it expects.) The unit has a small switch on the backside that is either in a 'normal' or 'loopback' state. It appears to function in loopback - you can press a button and the light for the button turns on, turning off any other previously lit button. But nothing comes out of the serial port in that state. In normal state it does absolutely nothing, and has the steady voltage on the output pin. Is it possible thing thing is waiting for the serial port to set one of the other pins for flow control? Any other ideas? (I need an oscilloscope ...) Regards, Mike From devonstopps at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 20:07:16 2007 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:07:16 -0400 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> I believe you're thinking of the book "The Art of Digital Electronics"...I don't remember who wrote it. I too have been considering building an 8/i compatible, and wouldn't mind some insight. Devon Ethan Dicks wrote.............. Subject: Re: newbie building a scratch-built computer ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is _lots_ of software for that platform, of course. The PDP-8 has a rich history. I've been re-reading a book on processor design I picked up a few years ago, based on a recommendation on this list. I am blanking on the title, but it describes a 74183/74181-based F20 and a 2910-based microprogrammed F30 PDP-8/i-compatible CPU. I've been mulling over what it would take to build one of those (besides lots of time ;-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 30 20:17:33 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:17:33 -0600 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> Devon Stopps wrote: > I believe you're thinking of the book "The Art of Digital > Electronics"...I don't remember who wrote it. I too have been > considering building an 8/i compatible, and wouldn't mind some insight. Switches are not cheep!!! > Devon From grant at stockly.com Mon Jul 30 20:20:13 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:20:13 -0800 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com> At 05:07 PM 7/30/2007, you wrote: >I believe you're thinking of the book "The Art of Digital Electronics"...I >don't remember who wrote it. I too have been considering building an 8/i >compatible, and wouldn't mind some insight. I have been dared and have seriously thought about a building a straight 8... : D Grant From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 30 20:53:02 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:53:02 -0600 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46AE95FE.6040503@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > At 05:07 PM 7/30/2007, you wrote: >> I believe you're thinking of the book "The Art of Digital >> Electronics"...I don't remember who wrote it. I too have been >> considering building an 8/i compatible, and wouldn't mind some insight. > > I have been dared and have seriously thought about a building a straight > 8... Well they do look cool -- the desk top model for example. How much do you plan to replicate? I suspect a functional replica could be made - different transistors,edge connectors and multi-layer PCB's rather than wire-wrap. > Grant PS. and cost I guess about $3K. From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Jul 30 21:15:22 2007 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:15:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Source code cross referencing tools? Message-ID: <91406.1185848123234.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> take a look at this... http://www.swbs.com/ -----Original Message----- >From: "Richard A. Cini" >Sent: Jul 30, 2007 4:21 PM >To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Source code cross referencing tools? From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jul 30 21:21:14 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:21:14 -0500 Subject: Near-Topic? For your amusement Message-ID: <46AE9C9A.9040504@mdrconsult.com> I just don't have words to describe this. If you have a soldering iron on your bench, you should read it. http://tinyurl.com/37n6eh Doc Shipley From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 30 21:39:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:39:55 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46AE85C0.7070404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <46AE85C0.7070404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> On Jul 30, 2007, at 8:43 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Hello, everyone. My name is Joe, I am 17 years old, and live in >> central NJ. >> I would like to figure out how to build a retro-type computer, >> either from >> plans or from a kit. I am currently considering the Micro-KIM, as >> well as >> trying to build a mark-8. Not sure what I want to do. If anyone >> can help me >> along with this, I would be very appreciative. > > Expect to spend a good chunk of $$$ if you want something more than > a toy. > Four thousand and ninety six words of memory was still considered > a large amount of memory in the mark-8 era, and many computers came > with > that amount. 10,000x slower than computers of today so don't expect > to have > much computing power, just have losts of fun. ('.~) Bunk. There is much educational value in even the tiniest of machines, and even quite a few very practical uses. And let's not lose sight of the fact that the embedded systems world is filled to overflowing with machines with considerably less memory than even that...I routinely design systems around modern processors with a few dozen bytes of memory. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 30 21:39:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:39:54 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <628B36DF-E21D-4F25-9F00-611D5C988FE6@neurotica.com> On Jul 30, 2007, at 9:17 PM, woodelf wrote: >> I believe you're thinking of the book "The Art of Digital >> Electronics"...I don't remember who wrote it. I too have been >> considering building an 8/i compatible, and wouldn't mind some >> insight. > > Switches are not cheep!!! Sure they are: http://shorterlink.org/2848 They only get expensive when you're trying to match a particular type. If you're flexible about types, one can get them fairly cheaply. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jul 30 21:48:12 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (Chris Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:48:12 -0700 Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D23E6B-13EF-4368-B894-798FA75AD877@feedle.net> On Jul 30, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting >> an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a >> modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head >> around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial... > > I thought, from the Apple //e Technical Manual, that unlike the older > Apple ][s, the keyboard on the //e was just a matrix of switches > and the > encoder chip was on the mainboard. So it's not strickly an ASCII > keyboard. That might explain why the pin configuration doesn't seem to be matching what I remember from the Apple II+ and similar. The Goog isn't being much help with pinouts. Anybody have a pinout spec for the //e? > I've not done _anything_ with USB (mainly because none of my computers > have that interface). but I keep on reading about microcontorllers > with > USB 'slave' interfaces. It should be possible to use one of those to > either accept ASCII+strobe from an encoded keyboard (e.g. an Apple ][ > one) or to scan a matrix of switches. That has been mentioned. I'm in the process of getting up to speed on microcontrollers anyway, so this might be an interesting project. My main target for the query was to see if anybody has already done this, so I didn't have to run around re-inventing the wheel. It appears I'm the first person who's thought about gutting an Apple //e and putting a modern PC motherboard inside (don't worry, peeps: this was a very much broken and unhappy //e) for the laughs. http://www.moremayo.com/projects/apple2/ for pics and discussion. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 30 21:52:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:52:07 -0400 Subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89C9241D-7962-49B8-999B-15E0A1284836@neurotica.com> On Jul 30, 2007, at 6:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 >> >> >> Sorry to hear about Ophelia - you have mentioned what a good cat >> she was and >> how she liked to curl up on your equipment. > > Let me add my condolences too :-(. Many a late night of hacking has > been > made more pleasant for me by my previous cat 'Homer' (who was run > over by > an idiot who thought his right not to be late was more important than > Homer's right to live) and my current cat 'Pentina'. I can well > understand the loss you must feel. Thank you. It has been really difficult. She died last Wednesday of liver cancer. She was the best friend I have ever had. Here are some funny pics of her: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdpcat.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/stressed-cat.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/catleg.jpg I'm sorry to hear about Homer. I'd have chased down that driver and beaten him to within an inch of his life. Or perhaps a tad further. > What is it about old computers and cats. Quite a few people who > like the > former like the latter... It's because we're people of taste. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 30 21:59:33 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:59:33 -0600 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <628B36DF-E21D-4F25-9F00-611D5C988FE6@neurotica.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <628B36DF-E21D-4F25-9F00-611D5C988FE6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46AEA595.1090103@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > They only get expensive when you're trying to match a particular > type. If you're flexible about types, one can get them fairly cheaply. Well I am as I am thinking of matching momentary and on/off switches - lever handle - PCB mount. As I am still waiting for my switches to come in for a different project I am trying to get around that problem for bootstrapping. > -Dave PS. For the other posting you forgot 'data' for memory size. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 30 22:03:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:03:54 -0600 Subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e, In-Reply-To: <89C9241D-7962-49B8-999B-15E0A1284836@neurotica.com> References: <89C9241D-7962-49B8-999B-15E0A1284836@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46AEA69A.80709@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > It's because we're people of taste. =) I think it the other way around ... Cats own people and the computer. :) Cats like high places and most classic err warm computers tend to be in tall rack. > -Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 30 22:08:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:08:34 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AEA595.1090103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <628B36DF-E21D-4F25-9F00-611D5C988FE6@neurotica.com> <46AEA595.1090103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8DD9D8AD-1E7B-4DE7-9FCE-CA2B1225E27D@neurotica.com> On Jul 30, 2007, at 10:59 PM, woodelf wrote: >> They only get expensive when you're trying to match a particular >> type. If you're flexible about types, one can get them fairly >> cheaply. > > Well I am as I am thinking of matching momentary and on/off switches - > lever handle - PCB mount. As I am still waiting for my switches to > come > in for a different project I am trying to get around that problem for > bootstrapping. Ahh yes, that can be a rub. eBay is your friend, though...lots of overstock dealers dump huge volumes of new parts that way. > PS. For the other posting you forgot 'data' for memory size. :) That's true, but still...There are plenty of useful applications for such a machine, and better yet, someone who learns on such hardware will have a FAR superior understanding of computers than a graduate of one of today's "Javaschools". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jul 30 22:11:23 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:11:23 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <46AE85C0.7070404@jetnet.ab.ca> <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46AEA85B.7040403@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > I routinely design systems around modern processors with a few > dozen bytes of memory. ...which you can get away with because modern processors have a few dozen registers ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 30 22:21:24 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:21:24 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AEA595.1090103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >From: woodelf > >Dave McGuire wrote: > >> They only get expensive when you're trying to match a particular type. >>If you're flexible about types, one can get them fairly cheaply. > >Well I am as I am thinking of matching momentary and on/off switches - >lever handle - PCB mount. As I am still waiting for my switches to come >in for a different project I am trying to get around that problem for >bootstrapping. > Hi An alternative to switches is a diode ROM. You don't need too many diodes if the system already has some ROM boot code and all you need is a call routine. Even a simple serial bootstrap can be done if it is an older machine with hard configures serial. Most programmable serial chips can be made into a boot strap with about 50 bytes. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07 From dbwood at kc.rr.com Mon Jul 30 22:32:37 2007 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:32:37 -0500 Subject: Source code cross referencing tools? References: Message-ID: <002901c7d323$711b5040$697ba8c0@epicis> My personal favorite is an old DOS program called "Source Print+". It works on BASIC, C (& C++), FORTRAN, etc., etc. I even use it on my various assembly language programs, and you can define keyword lists (for the keyword highlighting feature). It functions as a kind of "pretty print" program and a cross-reference utility. There is/was also a companion program called "Tree Source+" which draw function call trees based on the source code. Douglas Wood ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard A. Cini" To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:21 PM Subject: Source code cross referencing tools? All: Does anyone know of a tool that will take an arbitrary list of source files (say C) and cross reference the variables and routines among the source files? Here?s the problem. I?m trying to adapt and extract a small portion of a large project for a smaller project. The header files spider all over the place and the code calls functions in several modules. In all, there?s several hundred of source files in the large project and I think I?ll probably need fragments of about 15 of them. Does this make sense to anyone? I want to take the source file I?m interested in and find out where the variables and functions are declared in other modules. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp __________ NOD32 2429 (20070730) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 30 22:39:38 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:39:38 -0700 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <46AE9836.3030009@brutman.com> Message-ID: >From: "Michael B. Brutman" > > >I'm still trying to make this thing talk ... > >Here's the quick recap. It is driven by a derivative of an Intel MCS-51. >It is supposed to speak 9600 N81 over a serial port to a PC. The protocol >is supposed to be simple. But I haven't been able to make it talk. > >I borrowed a friend's multi-meter that does frequency counting, hoping to >use it as a poor man's oscilloscope. I verified it with the PC serial port >- sending characters definitely makes it wiggle. > >Connected to the device (which is powered by an external adapter), it shows >+10VDC on its pin 2 (which is 'receive' from the PC perspective), but no >wiggling with the frequency counter. This confirms what I saw with my >meter - a straight 10VDC signal coming out. The voltage level is fine for >serial, but it is not a data stream if it is continuous. > >Opening the device up shows the MCS 51 feeds a Maxim chip, which is used to >get the TTL voltages up to proper RS232 voltages. The input and output to >the Maxim chip are behaving the same way - a continuous voltage. Kind of >like the MCS 51 is fried or stuck in a loop waiting for initialization. >(And of course, I don't know what it expects.) > >The unit has a small switch on the backside that is either in a 'normal' or >'loopback' state. It appears to function in loopback - you can press a >button and the light for the button turns on, turning off any other >previously lit button. But nothing comes out of the serial port in that >state. In normal state it does absolutely nothing, and has the steady >voltage on the output pin. > >Is it possible thing thing is waiting for the serial port to set one of the >other pins for flow control? Any other ideas? (I need an oscilloscope >...) > > >Regards, >Mike > > Hi First try removing the Maxim chip. It may be shorted. Next, send a copy of the code you are using to control and what frequncy the processor is running at. If the crystal isn't 12 MHz ( as I recall ) the baud rate may be differnt. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 30 22:43:39 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e, In-Reply-To: <89C9241D-7962-49B8-999B-15E0A1284836@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 30, 7 10:52:07 pm" Message-ID: <200707310343.l6V3hdQT011742@floodgap.com> > Thank you. It has been really difficult. She died last Wednesday > of liver cancer. She was the best friend I have ever had. I said the same thing after my big friend Midnight died, 19+ years old, the best big purring beast cat I'd ever known. My condolences. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A different taste in jokes is a great strain on the affections. -- G. Eliot From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jul 30 23:56:33 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:56:33 -0600 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46AEC101.4040107@brutman.com> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > First try removing the Maxim chip. It may be shorted. Next, > send a copy of the code you are using to control and what > frequncy the processor is running at. If the crystal isn't 12 MHz > ( as I recall ) the baud rate may be differnt. > Dwight I've checked the output from the MCS-51 by putting a probe on the leg and noticed the same thing. I think the Maxim is dutifully raising the voltage to 10VDC from 5VDC, as it should. I don't have control over the code - it's probably burned into this variant of the MCS-51. Even if I have the bps rate wrong, I should still some garbage flowing across serial interface. Mike From spc at conman.org Mon Jul 30 22:59:39 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:59:39 -0400 Subject: Source code cross referencing tools? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070731035939.GF17649@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: > All: > > Does anyone know of a tool that will take an arbitrary list of source > files (say C) and cross reference the variables and routines among the > source files? CTags. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctags That should do exactly what you want. -spc (Hope this helps) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 30 23:05:50 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:05:50 -0700 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys In-Reply-To: <46AEC101.4040107@brutman.com> Message-ID: >From: "Michael B. Brutman" > >dwight elvey wrote: >>Hi >>First try removing the Maxim chip. It may be shorted. Next, >>send a copy of the code you are using to control and what >>frequncy the processor is running at. If the crystal isn't 12 MHz >>( as I recall ) the baud rate may be differnt. >>Dwight > >I've checked the output from the MCS-51 by putting a probe on the leg and >noticed the same thing. I think the Maxim is dutifully raising the voltage >to 10VDC from 5VDC, as it should. > >I don't have control over the code - it's probably burned into this variant >of the MCS-51. Even if I have the bps rate wrong, I should still some >garbage flowing across serial interface. > Hi I've seen the maxim parts blown such that the input was tied and the level converter was still working. In any case, you are most likely right about it needing some type of hand shake. You might try something simple like control Q. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!? http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 23:08:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:08:39 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, woodelf wrote: > Devon Stopps wrote: > > I believe you're thinking of the book "The Art of Digital > > Electronics"...I don't remember who wrote it. Close... "The Art of Digital Design" by Prosser and Winkel (I'm home and staring at the book). > > I too have been > > considering building an 8/i compatible, and wouldn't mind some insight. Well... owning an -8/i, my only complaint of it is how difficult/expensive it is to expand the memory. Peripherals aren't bad, but it takes 8K internally (I think I have all the parts I need to take mine from 4K to 8K), but the external 24K is rare and expensive. I own one or more of nearly every style of -8 (lacking -8/f, -8/m, WT78), but even so, a TTL and/or an AMD29xx-based -8 is still fascinating to me. I already happen to have a small stack of '181 ALUs, and need to locate a few '83s to keep my pile of TTL -8s working. The F20 uses the '183 adder, so hopefully I can find some at the same place that has '83s. >From reading through the F20 design and, obviously, using a pair of modern "by 8" SRAMs instead of the now-ancient 6147 4Kx1 SRAM, I think I already have 95% of the needed parts in my parts bins. FWIW, I don't see as much value in building a TTL -8 design that doesn't have a memory extension register, since I could just build an IM6100 board if I wanted a 4K TTY-only PDP-8. I'd want to expand the design to have at least 8K, so why not go on to 32K. At least with 8K, OS/8 is possible, but why implement one memory extension bit when 3 bits just isn't that much harder. > Switches are not cheep!!! I disagree. I have tubs of C&K switches with various sizes and shapes of paddles. What isn't cheap is *new* switches with *particular* toggles/handles. Those are easily $5 each. Surplus "match only themselves" can be had for $0.50 at Hamfests or places like BG Micro. I've built Elf toggle panels for $5. A PDP-8 needn't cost more than $15 unless you want very specific switches to match an existing design. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 23:13:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:13:25 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <46AEA595.1090103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, dwight elvey wrote: > An alternative to switches is a diode ROM. You don't need too many > diodes if the system already has some ROM boot code and all you need > is a call routine. In the PDP world, there were diode bootstraps and rope-core bootstraps. Most DMA devices were smart enough on their own to easily load block zero into core at 0000 with little effort. I recall a PDP-11 bootstrap that depended on human reaction time being slower than the disk that could boot an RK06/7 in, essentially one word. You stuffed the right value into the CSR directly, then jumped to 0000000. Before you could type G 0000000 or whatever, the disk pulsed and the block loaded, leaving you a boot block to jump into. The full and proper auto-boot code wasn't even a dozen words anyway. OTOH, a TU58 boot on a PDP-11 or a TD8E boot on a PDP-8 is a much more involved thing to toggle in, but at least with a PDP-11 w/console ODT, one can have a smart host toggle that in for you (as if it were a human typing in the boot code one word at a time). -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jul 30 23:19:26 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:19:26 -0700 Subject: Source code cross referencing tools? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46AEB84E.8030106@shiresoft.com> Excuse me all...what the HELL does this have to do with classic computers? There are other mailing lists, resources (ie Google) that can be used to obtain this information and opinions. Why is that members of this list have to ask/talk about any subject on this mailing list? This isn't the only damned discussion list on the internet. If you have something to say about a random subject go find a discussion group for that. If you want to say something to a member (or members) of this list that isn't on topic...use private e-mail. It is not a requirement that every electronic conversation you have has to go through this list. If you want to talk about classic computers, then this is the list for that. If it isn't...go someplace else. I'm sick and tired of the endless chatter about random crap that has absolutely nothing to do with classic computers. This list has degenerated into almost complete noise. I belong to many lists (and some of them are *very* high volume) and *none* of them fails to stay on topic. This is the only list I'm on where people can't seem to stay on topic. I'm beginning to think that this list isn't worth the time I have to spend deleting posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the list charter. Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > Does anyone know of a tool that will take an arbitrary list of source > files (say C) and cross reference the variables and routines among the > source files? Here?s the problem. I?m trying to adapt and extract a small > portion of a large project for a smaller project. The header files spider > all over the place and the code calls functions in several modules. In all, > there?s several hundred of source files in the large project and I think > I?ll probably need fragments of about 15 of them. > > Does this make sense to anyone? I want to take the source file I?m > interested in and find out where the variables and functions are declared in > other modules. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 30 23:23:53 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:23:53 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 7/30/07, dwight elvey wrote: > > An alternative to switches is a diode ROM. You don't need too many > > diodes if the system already has some ROM boot code and all you need > > is a call routine. > >In the PDP world, there were diode bootstraps and rope-core >bootstraps. Most DMA devices were smart enough on their own to easily >load block zero into core at 0000 with little effort. I recall a >PDP-11 bootstrap that depended on human reaction time being slower >than the disk that could boot an RK06/7 in, essentially one word. You >stuffed the right value into the CSR directly, then jumped to 0000000. > Before you could type G 0000000 or whatever, the disk pulsed and the >block loaded, leaving you a boot block to jump into. The full and >proper auto-boot code wasn't even a dozen words anyway. > Hi Ethan My IMSAI's disk controller boots the same way. I hit reset and the disk spins. I have the switches set to zero and just go there. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 23:24:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:24:07 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46AE8756.4080505@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <46ADB4BC.31570.340E04E3@cclist.sydex.com> <46AE8756.4080505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, woodelf wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I've been re-reading a book on processor design I picked up a few > > years ago, based on a recommendation on this list. I am blanking on > > the title, but it describes a 74183/74181-based F20 and a 2910-based > > microprogrammed F30 PDP-8/i-compatible CPU. I've been mulling over > > what it would take to build one of those (besides lots of time ;-) > > What is a F20? The F20 is a TTL implementation-from-specs of the PDP-8/i as a series of chapters and homework in "The Art of Digital Design", Prosser and Winkel, Prentice-Hall, 1987. I got my copy from Abe Books a few years ago and have been reading it as bed-time material this month. The F20 uses 74181 ALUs and 74183 adders as the center of a TTL PDP-8. The F30 (later chapters) is a re-implementation of the same instruction set using a microprogrammed design and an AMD2910. Given how hard it is to find an IM6120 in the wild these days, a TTL PDP-8 sounds attractive to me; as long it can address more than 4KW (which I don't think the stock F20 or F30 does, so there's more homework to do). -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 30 23:24:14 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e, In-Reply-To: <46AEA69A.80709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <89C9241D-7962-49B8-999B-15E0A1284836@neurotica.com> <46AEA69A.80709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070730212334.G40009@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, woodelf wrote: > I think it the other way around ... Cats own people and the computer. :) > Cats like high places and most classic err warm computers tend to be in tall rack. . . . and keyboards are to cats what beaded seat cushions are to taxi drivers From spc at conman.org Mon Jul 30 23:24:21 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:24:21 -0400 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? In-Reply-To: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20070731042421.GG17649@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated: > a media organization in south florida (palm beach, broward, miami-dade > counties, cities such as West palm beach, delray, boca, fort lauderdale, > hollywood, miami, etc.) is looking for people who collect > vintage/classic/old computers regarding an article on that topic they are > working on. And the article was just printed: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbcomputercollectorpnjul30,0,2815119.story It's a bit of a fluff piece, but the reporter basically got facts down. -spc (And it's such a short piece, dispite talking to me three times on the phone ... ) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 30 23:41:33 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:41:33 -0600 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46AEBD7D.8060905@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've built Elf toggle panels for $5. A PDP-8 needn't cost more than > $15 unless you want very specific switches to match an existing > design. Well I guess I got 'put in my place'. Now on to the next problem is TTL prom programing. I ordered 74S472's and got MB7124H's. So is prom substitution common? So who on the list can program proms since they are needed on the larger machines and any microcoded projects now drifting around this list? > -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 23:44:04 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:44:04 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <46AE85C0.7070404@jetnet.ab.ca> <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46AEBE14.3010605@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 30, 2007, at 8:43 PM, woodelf wrote: >>> Hello, everyone. My name is Joe, I am 17 years old, and live in >>> central NJ. >>> I would like to figure out how to build a retro-type computer, either >>> from >>> plans or from a kit. I am currently considering the Micro-KIM, as >>> well as >>> trying to build a mark-8. Not sure what I want to do. If anyone can >>> help me >>> along with this, I would be very appreciative. >> >> Expect to spend a good chunk of $$$ if you want something more than a >> toy. >> Four thousand and ninety six words of memory was still considered >> a large amount of memory in the mark-8 era, and many computers came with >> that amount. 10,000x slower than computers of today so don't expect to >> have >> much computing power, just have losts of fun. ('.~) > > Bunk. There is much educational value in even the tiniest of > machines, and even quite a few very practical uses. And let's not lose > sight of the fact that the embedded systems world is filled to > overflowing with machines with considerably less memory than even > that...I routinely design systems around modern processors with a few > dozen bytes of memory. Indeed. A few months ago, I built a machine on a breadboard. Not including the breadboard, the price of everything I used, *combined* was less than $50. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 23:54:48 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:54:48 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AEBD7D.8060905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <46AEBD7D.8060905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 7/30/07, woodelf wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I've built Elf toggle panels for $5. A PDP-8 needn't cost more than > > $15 unless you want very specific switches to match an existing > > design. > > Well I guess I got 'put in my place'. I certainly didn't mean to "put you in your place" - just an honest disagreement about switch costs. The most I ever paid for switches is for my FP6120 - I needed to match specific paddles and a specific soldering hole footprint and paid about $4/switch. OTOH, I've bought fistfuls of similar (but not compatible, unfortunately) C&K switches for $0.25 at Dayton, and for $0.50 at Mansfield. The $0.50 switches are going into a PDP-11/70 front panel - the bodies are compatible, but I still need a double-handful of "real" PDP-11/70 rockers to go in them. > Now on to the next problem is TTL prom programing. > I ordered 74S472's and got MB7124H's. So is prom substitution > common? My recollection of programming boot PROMs for our 1982-era MC68000 board was yes... we used to need 6309s (like on an Apple II disk card), but routinely used whatever we could get with the same pinout and geometry (256 x 8). > So who on the list can program proms since they are > needed on the larger machines and any microcoded projects > now drifting around this list? I have an old Data I/O, but it's packed away and I haven't powered it on in years. Mostly, I've been programming with a UP600A that might or might not burn PROMs. I hadn't gotten as far as programming PROMs in my F20 flights of fancy. -ethan From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Jul 31 00:02:23 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 01:02:23 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46AEBE14.3010605@gmail.com> References: <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <46AE85C0.7070404@jetnet.ab.ca> <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070731010006.0393e810@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: >Dave McGuire wrote: >>On Jul 30, 2007, at 8:43 PM, woodelf wrote: >>>>Hello, everyone. My name is Joe, I am 17 years old, and live in central NJ. >>>>I would like to figure out how to build a retro-type computer, either from >>>>plans or from a kit. I am currently considering the Micro-KIM, as well as >>>>trying to build a mark-8. Not sure what I want to do. If anyone can help me >>>>along with this, I would be very appreciative. >>> >>>Expect to spend a good chunk of $$$ if you want something more than a toy. >>>Four thousand and ninety six words of memory was still considered >>>a large amount of memory in the mark-8 era, and many computers came with >>>that amount. 10,000x slower than computers of today so don't expect to have >>>much computing power, just have losts of fun. ('.~) >> Bunk. There is much educational value in even the tiniest of >> machines, and even quite a few very practical uses. And let's not lose >> sight of the fact that the embedded systems world is filled to >> overflowing with machines with considerably less memory than even >> that...I routinely design systems around modern processors with a few >> dozen bytes of memory. > >Indeed. A few months ago, I built a machine on a breadboard. Not >including the breadboard, the price of everything I used, *combined* was >less than $50. And if you go el-cheapo on the solderless breadboard (and it's a microprocessor design - it would take many of these for a TTL-only setup) it's not too expensive either, and easier to change if you 'oops.' http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/6890 That's for an unpowered board, but heck... who around here doesn't have some form of (at least) 5V floating around??? ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 31 00:11:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:11:22 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AEBD7D.8060905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >From: woodelf >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: (no subject) >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:41:33 -0600 > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>I've built Elf toggle panels for $5. A PDP-8 needn't cost more than >>$15 unless you want very specific switches to match an existing >>design. > >Well I guess I got 'put in my place'. >Now on to the next problem is TTL prom programing. >I ordered 74S472's and got MB7124H's. So is prom substitution >common? >So who on the list can program proms since they are >needed on the larger machines and any microcoded projects >now drifting around this list? > Hi I have a data I/O 19 with the a UniPack. It'll do most older PROMs. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jul 31 00:34:28 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:34:28 -0700 Subject: IBM 6094-020 Lighted Program Function Keys References: <46A56C7C.5030808@brutman.com> <2A5702C4-E120-4E94-8660-0E04B173EB3E@neurotica.com> <1e1fc3e90707240053g234b7d46ob33b5da647596bd@mail.gmail.com> <46A6CD6A.1030807@brutman.com> <46A6E286.3080700@gmail.com> <46AE9836.3030009@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46AEC9E3.F746529E@cs.ubc.ca> "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > Is it possible thing thing is waiting for the serial port to set one of > the other pins for flow control? Any other ideas? (I need an > oscilloscope ...) Regarding flow control, you might trace the input of other receivers on the maxim chip to see if they go back to the serial cable/connector. If so, send them to their opposite state (as observed by watching the output of the receiver). It would 'ordinarily' seem unnecessary for hardware flow control in such a device so it may be unlikely to be the solution, but you never know what IBM might have gotten up to. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 31 00:36:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:36:19 -0600 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070731010006.0393e810@mail.30below.com> References: <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <46AE85C0.7070404@jetnet.ab.ca> <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070731010006.0393e810@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <46AECA53.8090101@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > That's for an unpowered board, but heck... who around here doesn't have > some form of (at least) 5V floating around??? ;-) Ta-da - I have a wall of wall warts. :) > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger Note. Only about 3 but I hate them. Also one good thing... surplus pc power supplies for home brew. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 31 01:14:35 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:14:35 -0700 Subject: Source code cross referencing tools? In-Reply-To: <46AEB84E.8030106@shiresoft.com> References: <46AEB84E.8030106@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200707302314.35664.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 30 July 2007 21:19, Guy Sotomayor wrote: I'm 100% with Guy on this... See my comments after his... --snip-- > If you want to talk about classic computers, then this is the list for > that. If it isn't...go someplace else. I'm sick and tired of the > endless chatter about random crap that has absolutely nothing to do with > classic computers. > > This list has degenerated into almost complete noise. I belong to many > lists (and some of them are *very* high volume) and *none* of them fails > to stay on topic. This is the only list I'm on where people can't seem > to stay on topic. I'm beginning to think that this list isn't worth the > time I have to spend deleting posts that have absolutely nothing to do > with the list charter. [This is a portion of an email I sent to Jay yesterday] After a long time being on this list, I'm about to leave it. I find myself deleting about 90-95% of the messages that are posted. At one time, it felt like it was a list for folks wanting to chat about vintage computers. But over time, it has become a list where just about anything goes. I know it's not your fault, Jay. For some reason, this list seems to be unmanageable. I belong to many lists - most are not managed (or one would more properly say "self managed"). None of these lists "stray" from their stated purpose as does this list. Suggestion: Split the CCLIST into two or maybe three lists - One list for those who what do discuss vintage minicomputers, one for vintage microcomputers and one for anything classic electronic (what is now posted as "off-topic"). Define vintage as being at least 15 years old and classic being at least 10 years old. It seems to me that "self-managing" of the lists would be easier - as members would suggest that a certain subject belongs on another list within the same "family" of lists. I suppose one could argue that some "cross-fertilization" would be lost. But I think there is more danger that those of us with a great deal of experience in minis and micros [and restoration] will abandon the list if something doesn't happen to encourage people to stay on topic. Regards, Lyle > > Richard A. Cini wrote: > > All: > > > > Does anyone know of a tool that will take an arbitrary list of source > > files (say C) and cross reference the variables and routines among the > > source files? Here?s the problem. I?m trying to adapt and extract a small > > portion of a large project for a smaller project. The header files spider > > all over the place and the code calls functions in several modules. In > > all, there?s several hundred of source files in the large project and I > > think I?ll probably need fragments of about 15 of them. > > > > Does this make sense to anyone? I want to take the source file I?m > > interested in and find out where the variables and functions are declared > > in other modules. > > > > Rich > > > > -- > > Rich Cini > > Collector of Classic Computers > > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > > http://www.altair32.com > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From samteck at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 16:53:51 2007 From: samteck at gmail.com (Samuel Antunes) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:53:51 +0100 Subject: CTX Panoview 630 power supply pinout? Message-ID: Hi. I also have one of those LCD's, but with the elo Touch reference (ELT121C-7SWA-1) By means have you figure out the Pin-Out for the power Brick ?? Best regards and thanks in advance. Samuel Antunes From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Jul 30 22:14:17 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:14:17 -0400 Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC Message-ID: <002701c7d320$e1c81970$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, Is it possible to read, but not necessarily write, a NorthStar Horizon hard sector disk using a standard PC NEC 765 type FDC? If not, why? The NorthStar controller uses FM and/or MFM encoding but I do not understand the reason why. Based on what I have read, it appears the NorthStar disks are unreadable on the PC without special hardware such as the MatchPoint PC and/or Catweasel cards. Thanks in advance for your enlightenment on the subject. Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 31 01:54:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:54:09 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AE95FE.6040503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com>, <46AE95FE.6040503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46AE7A21.20681.3711133E@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jul 2007 at 19:53, woodelf wrote: > Well they do look cool -- the desk top model for example. > How much do you plan to replicate? I suspect a functional > replica could be made - different transistors,edge connectors > and multi-layer PCB's rather than wire-wrap. I wonder how much of an 8/i would fit in a current FPGA? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 31 02:11:42 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 01:11:42 -0600 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AE7A21.20681.3711133E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com>, <46AE95FE.6040503@jetnet.ab.ca> <46AE7A21.20681.3711133E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46AEE0AE.40609@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder how much of an 8/i would fit in a current FPGA? All of it (8K+) with serial I/O to boot is my guess. > Cheers, > Chuck > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Jul 31 03:14:26 2007 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:14:26 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? Message-ID: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Just a curious question for the folks in the UK... Has there ever been a VCF UK? Do you think there would be much interest in one? Mark. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jul 31 04:09:02 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:09:02 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <1185872942.4717.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-07-31 at 09:14 +0100, Mark Wickens wrote: > Just a curious question for the folks in the UK... > > Has there ever been a VCF UK? Do you think there would be much interest in > one? I'd be interested in one, particularly if it was further north than (say) the Midlands. Gordon From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 05:34:27 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:34:27 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <1185872942.4717.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> <1185872942.4717.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: /me votes for midlands(Brum) to north midlands (Manchester) Dave Caroline From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Jul 31 07:10:36 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 07:10:36 -0500 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> References: Message-ID: <200707311114.l6VBE64K025966@hosting.monisys.ca> > Thanks for your advice, Tony. To address question #1, I'm honestly not too > sure. I figure ha wih the early micros, there is documentation, where as > something completely homebrew, there is little, if any. What I need to find > is a good resource for electronic circuit design. I have a book called "How > to Build Your Own Working Microcomputer" that I bought for under a dollar at > a thrift store. I still need to finish it, but it doesn't seem to be much > help in that respect. I guess now is a good time to put in a plug for the CUBIX system. http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/d6809/index.htm This is a completely home-grown hardware/software computer I designed in the 80s which is fairly powerful. The OS includes over 100 system calls, applications include many utilities, several text editors, Assembler, BASIC, Micro-APL, a C compiler, an 8080 simulator and more. I've released source code to everything execpt the C compiler (which I still sell in another form). The system is based on a Motorola 6809 processor. The one shown on the page above is the first one I built, which is fairly complex because it is a portable with integrated video, keyboard, and has a few other "goodies" grafted on, however you can build up a functional CUBIX system with fairly minimal hardware (iirc about 20 ICs). The software is designed to be VERY portable - in fact, you can port CUBIX to new hardware from just the ROM image - you don't even need the source code (unless it's a major port to vastly different hardware). If you look in the "documentation" section, you will find complete documentation for the operating system and applications, as well as a porting guide which will help you get it up and running on new hardware. If you look in "My minimal hardware notes" you will find a three page schematic for a basic CUBIX system. [At one time I sold CUBIX as a product... I believe you will find the documentation is much better that you would expect for a home-grown system] I've also posted a simulator which will let you boot up and check out CUBIX on a PC - so you can "try before you buy" and decide if this is a system you would want to invest time in building. Over the years, I've built probably a dozen of these systems, and I know a number of others who have built them from my posted material. I've built up systems in under a day... As a newbie, you should plan to take a little longer than that :-) ... but it's not a huge project. Any questions - drop me a line. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 31 06:26:28 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: <50D23E6B-13EF-4368-B894-798FA75AD877@feedle.net> Message-ID: <551839.65127.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> It > appears I'm the first person who's thought about > gutting an Apple //e > and putting a modern PC motherboard inside (don't > worry, peeps: this > was a very much broken and unhappy //e) for the > laughs. You're not the first :) I did it about four years ago. I put an AMD K62 500 in mine. If you want, I can take pictures. Hint - when converting the keyboard, use the "Reset" key for "Delete" Not only is it handy to have "Delete", but now Control-OpenApple-Reset sends a Ctrl-Alt-Del... Contact me off list if you want pointers - this is pretty off-topic. -Ian From fu3.org at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 07:39:30 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:39:30 +0200 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200707311114.l6VBE64K025966@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> <200707311114.l6VBE64K025966@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <310f50ab0707310539u8d41c1u8052255b663a8d50@mail.gmail.com> 2007/7/31, Dave Dunfield : > I guess now is a good time to put in a plug for the CUBIX system. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/d6809/index.htm Wow(!!) :) From fryers at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 07:42:16 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:42:16 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: G'Day, On 31/07/07, Mark Wickens wrote: > Just a curious question for the folks in the UK... > > Has there ever been a VCF UK? Do you think there would be much interest in > one? I think there would be a lot of interest. The initial stumbling block so far appears to be finding someone to organise it. While I would be interested in organising one, it will not be for a while yet - read year(s). I still have stuff on my todo list that I thought I would have completed by Christmas (like making images of MIPS Ultrix CDs). I am currently in the process of moving from Swindon to Cheltenham so I don't have a really good idea of anything North of Birmingham. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 31 05:51:42 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:51:42 -0400 Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC Message-ID: <0JM100ICZI5IDUS2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:14:17 -0400 > To: > >Hi, > >Is it possible to read, but not necessarily write, a NorthStar Horizon hard >sector disk using a standard PC NEC 765 type FDC? > >If not, why? The NorthStar controller uses FM and/or MFM encoding but I do >not understand the reason why. The disks do not have any of the needed marks recorded to sychronize to. Also the check byte is not a CRC of the type that any FDC uses. As to FM/MFM yes thats the same but that only defines what the bits sent by the serial stream are represented by on the magnetic media bot the next level up in the formatting of the data. To simplify, the NS* controller uses the holes to signify where data is rather than laying down a complex series of recorded marks to signal where the contrller where the disk is at. The result is that the controller hardware is simplified and the CPU can do some of the work. >Based on what I have read, it appears the NorthStar disks are unreadable on >the PC without special hardware such as the MatchPoint PC and/or Catweasel >cards. Correct. Allison From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Jul 31 08:46:07 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:46:07 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: References: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707310646n2c2c543bn17bc04f9b0fa97d1@mail.gmail.com> On 31/07/07, Simon Fryer wrote: > > I think there would be a lot of interest. The initial stumbling block > so far appears to be finding someone to organise it. Agreed - I am sure this has cropped up on the list before, too, with the same conclusion. Venus shouldn't be a problem; there are plenty of possibilities about, ranging from sports halls to places the size of the NEC; although you'd need big pockets for the latter.. Just pick a size and go from there.. From kandres at epssecurity.com Tue Jul 31 08:49:46 2007 From: kandres at epssecurity.com (Kevin Andres) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:49:46 -0400 Subject: MicroNova Message-ID: <9FDB1590358E7F4489C8E3343A360C79BB31DA@exchange01.epssecurity.com> A reference was made to MicroNova. Like Data General MicroNova? Like the MicroNova that?s in my lock up, that I haven?t run in 15 years? Like the MicroNova with the 16 or 32 serial ports, I don?t remember, for terminals? Like the MicroNova I lost the 10M washing machine platter drive from? Then threw the removable platter out because I couldn?t find the washing machine? That MicroNova????????? Kevin J Andres Senior Technician Engineered Protection Systems Inc. HYPERLINK "mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com"mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/927 - Release Date: 7/30/2007 5:02 PM From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Jul 31 09:53:32 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:53:32 -0500 Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC In-Reply-To: <002701c7d320$e1c81970$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <200707311357.l6VDv2et000319@hosting.monisys.ca> > Hi, > > Is it possible to read, but not necessarily write, a NorthStar Horizon hard > sector disk using a standard PC NEC 765 type FDC? > > If not, why? The NorthStar controller uses FM and/or MFM encoding but I do > not understand the reason why. > > Based on what I have read, it appears the NorthStar disks are unreadable on > the PC without special hardware such as the MatchPoint PC and/or Catweasel > cards. > > Thanks in advance for your enlightenment on the subject. NorthStar uses a completely different format. The PC 765 FDC is very limited in the formats it is capable if reading. Basically It needs to see standard IBM 3740 single-density headers, or IBM system 34 double-density headers. It does support other sector sizes for those formats (IBM specs 128 byte SD and 256 byte DD sectors only iirc). The 765 DOES NOT have a "raw track" read or write capability - therefore, any diskette which does not have IBM format sector headers will be unreadable (the controller will just never find a sector). Also, the N* disks are hard-sectored. This means that the controller needs to see the individual holes to know where each sector data starts. The PC disk controller has no means to aligning individual sector data to index holes, even if it could see the sector data. There is a trick you can do, based on the fact that the PC uses independant diskette drive selection logic from that built into the 765 - you can "flip" from one drive to another in the middle of an operation. So you format a disk with a sector header indicating an big (like 8K) sector and put it in one drive, and your non-PC compatible format disk in the other. Turn on the motors to both drives, then begin reading the known formatted disk until the controllers indicates that it's found the header. Then "flip" to the other drive, and read the raw data as the body of the sector (it will appear to be bad as it will not have correct CRC etc.) I've never tried this with a NorthStar disk - there is still no way to align the data to the sector holes, but you may be able to detect the sector gaps and work it out that way. I just haven't found it worth the effort - Reading with a read system and transferring the disk content via serial is an easy alternative. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jul 31 09:09:25 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:09:25 -0400 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? In-Reply-To: <20070731042421.GG17649@brevard.conman.org> References: <001101c786da$96c146f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20070731042421.GG17649@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <46AF4295.7070203@comcast.net> Sean, It's a small world, that was a nice article I happen to be visiting family down here in S.Fla too, in Margate. I lived here since '80 but moved a few years ago to Pittsburgh. I would rumage thru the flea markets and thrift stores down here before there was ever an eBay. I happen to be taking my kids on a Thrift store patrol just for old times sake, just to see what I find. =Dan http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated: > >> a media organization in south florida (palm beach, broward, miami-dade >> counties, cities such as West palm beach, delray, boca, fort lauderdale, >> hollywood, miami, etc.) is looking for people who collect >> vintage/classic/old computers regarding an article on that topic they are >> working on. >> > > And the article was just printed: > > http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbcomputercollectorpnjul30,0,2815119.story > > It's a bit of a fluff piece, but the reporter basically got facts down. > > -spc (And it's such a short piece, dispite talking to me three times on > the phone ... ) > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 31 09:29:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:29:12 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <46AEA85B.7040403@oldskool.org> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <46AE85C0.7070404@jetnet.ab.ca> <9344B8B1-AC88-4BC8-953C-FBA9163C4E78@neurotica.com> <46AEA85B.7040403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <839035E1-E28C-4AF3-807C-64FC70FA5DE7@neurotica.com> On Jul 30, 2007, at 11:11 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> I routinely design systems around modern processors with a few >> dozen bytes of memory. > > ...which you can get away with because modern processors have a few > dozen registers ;-) The ones I was thinking about (Microchip PIC family) certainly don't. And I even program those in C most of the time. (not trying to be argumentative, but..) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 31 09:35:51 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:35:51 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AEBD7D.8060905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20070730210159.026324d8@pop.gmail.com> <46AE8DAD.2050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <46AEBD7D.8060905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <332EAC95-934B-420F-AA97-89C0B6D906AB@neurotica.com> On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:41 AM, woodelf wrote: > Now on to the next problem is TTL prom programing. > I ordered 74S472's and got MB7124H's. So is prom substitution > common? > So who on the list can program proms since they are > needed on the larger machines and any microcoded projects > now drifting around this list? I can program pretty much everything except 1702s here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 31 09:45:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:45:44 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AE7A21.20681.3711133E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com>, <46AE95FE.6040503@jetnet.ab.ca> <46AE7A21.20681.3711133E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <9BEBA04F-EF68-444B-ACE2-8C1CC1F16CE5@neurotica.com> On Jul 31, 2007, at 2:54 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well they do look cool -- the desk top model for example. >> How much do you plan to replicate? I suspect a functional >> replica could be made - different transistors,edge connectors >> and multi-layer PCB's rather than wire-wrap. > > I wonder how much of an 8/i would fit in a current FPGA? How much of an 8/i? I think you mean "how many 8/is"! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 10:03:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:03:54 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <9BEBA04F-EF68-444B-ACE2-8C1CC1F16CE5@neurotica.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com> <46AE95FE.6040503@jetnet.ab.ca> <46AE7A21.20681.3711133E@cclist.sydex.com> <9BEBA04F-EF68-444B-ACE2-8C1CC1F16CE5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7/31/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 31, 2007, at 2:54 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I wonder how much of an 8/i would fit in a current FPGA? > > How much of an 8/i? I think you mean "how many 8/is"! Ooh... there's something I haven't heard of before - a dual-core PDP-8. That could be an interesting project. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 31 10:19:38 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:19:38 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com> <46AE95FE.6040503@jetnet.ab.ca> <46AE7A21.20681.3711133E@cclist.sydex.com> <9BEBA04F-EF68-444B-ACE2-8C1CC1F16CE5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2007, at 11:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I wonder how much of an 8/i would fit in a current FPGA? >> >> How much of an 8/i? I think you mean "how many 8/is"! > > Ooh... there's something I haven't heard of before - a dual-core > PDP-8. > > That could be an interesting project. The hardware is a no-brainer (I'm visualizing something like the DA11 interprocessor buffer but with appropriate architectural adjustments for the PDP-8) but...the software...thinking of that on an -8 just makes my head hurt. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 31 10:25:12 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:25:12 -0400 Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200707311125.16773.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 30 July 2007 17:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > - The floppy drive is toast. Can I replace it with any regular 3.5" HD > > drive, or is it unconventional in some way? > > Some PS/2s used a spaecial floppy drive with, IIRC, a 40 pin card edge > connecotr which carried both the logic signals and power. The signals > were fairly conventional, though, and I might be able to dig out a pinout > of the connnector if you need it. I might even have one or more of these drives in my box of floppy drives, if someone needs one... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 31 10:30:21 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:30:21 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 30 July 2007 19:17, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Thanks for your advice, Tony. To address question #1, I'm honestly not too > sure. I figure ha wih the early micros, there is documentation, where as > something completely homebrew, there is little, if any. What I need to find > is a good resource for electronic circuit design. I have a book called "How > to Build Your Own Working Microcomputer" that I bought for under a dollar > at a thrift store. I still need to finish it, but it doesn't seem to be > much help in that respect. This sounds very much like two or three books I have, published by "TAB Books", none of which are terribly useful. :-) > As for your second question, I would find it to be really fascinating to > build a computer out of TTL, but again, I need some kind of resource to > guide me through it. All my knowledge on electronic circuitry is very basic > right now. My father, an electrical engineer, tells be that he couldn't > even do it after six years of college(although, he graduated 20 years ago), > so I'm not very hopeful that I could. > > Third, commercial software would be nice, but I don't need it. I would very > much like to learn machine code. I figure that when I start college > interviews in a year going toward something in the technology field, I'd > like to have as much pre-knowledge of computer science as I can. I figure > that there's no better way than to build and program a computer. It will > take me a long time, but it would be worth it. That sort of thing tends to not have very much use in today's job market, unfortunately. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 10:52:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:52:06 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com> <46AE95FE.6040503@jetnet.ab.ca> <46AE7A21.20681.3711133E@cclist.sydex.com> <9BEBA04F-EF68-444B-ACE2-8C1CC1F16CE5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7/31/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 31, 2007, at 11:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>> I wonder how much of an 8/i would fit in a current FPGA? > >> > >> How much of an 8/i? I think you mean "how many 8/is"! > > > > Ooh... there's something I haven't heard of before - a dual-core > > PDP-8. > > > > That could be an interesting project. > > The hardware is a no-brainer (I'm visualizing something like the > DA11 interprocessor buffer but with appropriate architectural > adjustments for the PDP-8) Sure. Makes sense. > ..but...the software...thinking of that on > an -8 just makes my head hurt. Well.... I remember a particular dual -8/m configuration at Ohio State in the Veterinary College. It was a mass spectrometer rig for analyzing drugs in race horse urine. One -8/m was always connected to the mass spec, the other to a tape drive, with 4-6 Diablo RK03-type drives and a dual-ported disk controller. It wasn't hot-swappable - you manually selected which drives responded to which CPU, then rebooted the CPU that needed to access the "new" drives. With OS/8, a reboot is rather quick. If you wanted something more sophisticated, one could consider running an updated RTS-8 with OS/8 as a task for each CPU. The RTS-8 executive could handle resource locking and sharing. It would still be a feat, but I think it's doable. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 31 11:14:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:14:05 -0700 Subject: MicroNova In-Reply-To: <9FDB1590358E7F4489C8E3343A360C79BB31DA@exchange01.epssecurity.com> References: <9FDB1590358E7F4489C8E3343A360C79BB31DA@exchange01.epssecurity.com> Message-ID: <46AEFD5D.24817.3911B589@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2007 at 9:49, Kevin Andres wrote: > A reference was made to MicroNova. Like Data General MicroNova? Like > the MicroNova that?s in my lock up... Well yes, but to stay on topic, the CPU chip more than the whole machine... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 31 11:18:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:18:41 -0700 Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC In-Reply-To: <200707311357.l6VDv2et000319@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <002701c7d320$e1c81970$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop>, <200707311357.l6VDv2et000319@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46AEFE71.21258.3915EAB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2007 at 9:53, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Also, the N* disks are hard-sectored. This means that the controller > needs to see the individual holes to know where each sector data > starts. The PC disk controller has no means to aligning individual > sector data to index holes, even if it could see the sector data. Not all Northstar diskettes are HS. One of the models (Advantage?) isn't--and it's that format that the Microsolutions MatchPoint will read, not the others. It's been too long since I've seen the darned things... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 31 11:20:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:20:55 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com>, , Message-ID: <46AEFEF7.902.3917F6AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2007 at 11:19, Dave McGuire wrote: > The hardware is a no-brainer (I'm visualizing something like the > DA11 interprocessor buffer but with appropriate architectural > adjustments for the PDP-8) but...the software...thinking of that on > an -8 just makes my head hurt. I understand that the PDP-11, while a good candidate for FPGA residency, suffers from a lack of freely available software. Is this true? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 31 11:24:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:24:34 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AEE0AE.40609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070730171921.03db1d88@pop.1and1.com>, <46AE7A21.20681.3711133E@cclist.sydex.com>, <46AEE0AE.40609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46AEFFD2.30424.391B4D91@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2007 at 1:11, woodelf wrote: > All of it (8K+) with serial I/O to boot is my guess. That was my thought. Why fool with IM6120s when you fit the durned thing in a teacup? How about a handheld 8/i? Maybe a few MB of CF for storage and an LCD display for a terminal... Might make an interesting coversation piece. Cheers, Chuck From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 31 11:38:29 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200707310029.l6V0SaYL003181@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20375.52498.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Joe, If your goal is primarily to build a classic, "retro" computer, the Micro-KIM or Replica 1 kits (Apple 1 clone) would be a good choices. However, I see your mention of a desire to learn some machine language coding. In that case, it might be wise to learn something that has modern applications, like coding for microcontrollers. There are a huge number of trainers, kits and development boards for those and, because they are current technology, a large number of books and other information about them. As a big plus, any coding experience you'd get would have value on a resume. The 8051 has always been a very popular and much-used microcontroller, but I'm not sure if it's still the most popular. The Atmel AVR series, especially their Mega devices, seem to be getting a lot of attention. Among the large number of board choices for that series, there's a little $20 demo board (not a kit) based upon a Mega device called the AVR Butterfly. It has an LCD display, light sensor and thermistor. You could build things around it since it isn't a kit: http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?module=FreaksTools&func=viewItem&item_id=462 There are a whole series of other AVR-based boards to choose from and the total number of microcontroller trainers, evaluation and development boards available based upon other microcontroller series is huge. Bill ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Jul 31 11:49:08 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:49:08 +0200 Subject: USB for the PDP-8 ! Message-ID: <46AF6804.6080401@bluewin.ch> Just something i found while surfing : http://ce.et.tudelft.nl/publicationfiles/924_507_thesis-1.pdf Jos Dreesen From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jul 31 12:24:21 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:24:21 -0500 Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46AF7045.8060807@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> - The floppy drive is toast. Can I replace it with any regular 3.5" HD >> drive, or is it unconventional in some way? > > Some PS/2s used a spaecial floppy drive with, IIRC, a 40 pin card edge > connecotr which carried both the logic signals and power. The signals > were fairly conventional, though, and I might be able to dig out a pinout > of the connnector if you need it. I've bootstrapped the machine using the previous DOS 3.3 on the hard drive, MODE.COM, and a serial cable so that I can get software on/off the hard drive, but not having a functional floppy drive makes me nervous. But there's no rush (it's functional enough) so whenever you get around to it is fine. And thanks! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From marvin at west.net Tue Jul 31 12:36:38 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:36:38 -0700 Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC Message-ID: <46AF7326.AC320793@west.net> > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Not all Northstar diskettes are HS. One of the models (Advantage?) > isn't--and it's that format that the Microsolutions MatchPoint will > read, not the others. It's been too long since I've seen the darned > things... I think the machine you are thinking of might be the N* Dimension. The Advantage still uses 10-sector floppies. I've never seen the Dimension but vintagemicros on Ebay was selling one a while back and had a picture of it. Apparently it was MS-DOS compatible. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 31 12:43:59 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:43:59 -0600 Subject: USB for the PDP-8 ! In-Reply-To: <46AF6804.6080401@bluewin.ch> References: <46AF6804.6080401@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <46AF74DF.2030400@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > Just something i found while surfing : > > http://ce.et.tudelft.nl/publicationfiles/924_507_thesis-1.pdf > > Jos Dreesen So what have we got for a wish list for a pdp 8. 1) Dual core. 2) usb. 3) PDP 8 with negitive logic interface. 4) $.50 switches 5) Several in FPGA. Sounds do-able if you don't forget to add the TSS/8 hardware. The main problem with the PDP 8 in hardware - FPGA or otherwise is all the little features or bugs you have to emulate. A basic 4K machine is easy write the hardware design for but the expanded version is not to be truly DEC compatable unless you know the real machine. That is something I can't do. Ben alias woodelf From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Jul 31 12:47:11 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:47:11 +0100 Subject: USB for the PDP-8 ! In-Reply-To: <46AF6804.6080401@bluewin.ch> References: <46AF6804.6080401@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <2f806cd70707311047t6e2b4beet2a51a574e085e995@mail.gmail.com> On 31/07/07, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > Just something i found while surfing : > > http://ce.et.tudelft.nl/publicationfiles/924_507_thesis-1.pdf > > For those readers not equipped to deal with a 744KB PDF file, here's the abstract from the front: The PDP-8 family of minicomputers were built by Digital Equipment Corporation between 1965 and 1990. The PDP8 computers were one of the ?rst computers that were a(r)ordable by a broader range of cus- tomers that contributed in the success of these machines. In 1976, Intersil developed a PDP8 chipset consisting of the IM6100 proces- sor [6], the I/O extension (IM6101) and the UART (IM6402). The PDP8 utilizes a small instruction set. Only eight basic instructions are implemented, which provide enough functionality to compose complete programs. A single board computing system was designed using the chipset from Intersil and a 80C32 based microcomputer system. The implemented computer is a minimal PDP8 computer with an UART to interface with legacy peripherals. The 80C32 microcomputer system controls the memory and the system state of the PDP8 sub-system. This microcomputer system communicates with a host computer via an USB interface. The USB connection is based upon the PDIUSB12 USB controller from Philips. Using the 80C32 microcomputer system and specially designed host software, executables can be loaded into the PDP8 memory and their execution can be controlled. The whole PDP8 computer is controllable from a special application running on a Microsoft Windows host computer. Borland C++ Builder was used to develop this application. This thesis will describe the development process and results of building such a system. The design of the PDP8-computer and the PC host sofware will be presented. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 12:51:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:51:05 -0500 Subject: From-scratch PDP-8 (was Re: (no subject)) Message-ID: On 7/31/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Jul 2007 at 1:11, woodelf wrote: > > > All of it (8K+) with serial I/O to boot is my guess. > > That was my thought. Why fool with IM6120s when you fit the durned > thing in a teacup? How about a handheld 8/i? Maybe a few MB of CF > for storage and an LCD display for a terminal... Hmm... that does sound interesting. A 320x200 LCD panel isn't expensive (I have several raw ones on hand w/touch sensors), and could be driven to 80 cols w/a 3x5 font (as was once used to give the C-64 "80 columns"). A "really cheap" terminal could be an older Palm Pilot running one of the extant terminal emulators, sharing a new enclosure with the PDP-8 board, attached internally via TTL serial. > Might make an interesting coversation piece. I think a 12-bit hand-held would be pretty cool. -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jul 31 13:01:57 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:01:57 -0400 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <46AEFFD2.30424.391B4D91@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 31 Jul 2007 at 1:11, woodelf wrote: > > > All of it (8K+) with serial I/O to boot is my guess. > > That was my thought. Why fool with IM6120s when you fit the durned > thing in a teacup? How about a handheld 8/i? Maybe a few MB of CF > for storage and an LCD display for a terminal... > > Might make an interesting coversation piece. My wife does doll houses now and then. I have wondered whether a fully functional (front panel, that is) 1/12 scale IMSAI would be possible. Z80 processor, 64K RAM, maybe a few interesting front panel programs in ROM... flip the bit, cylon eyes, simple count up/down. Run on a watch battery. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/927 - Release Date: 7/30/2007 5:02 PM From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 31 13:32:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC In-Reply-To: <002701c7d320$e1c81970$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <002701c7d320$e1c81970$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <20070731112320.V65059@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Is it possible to read, but not necessarily write, a NorthStar Horizon hard > sector disk using a standard PC NEC 765 type FDC? no > If not, why? The NorthStar controller uses FM and/or MFM encoding but I do > not understand the reason why. The 765 can only handle formats with WD/IBM sector headers. It does not have any sort of "raw read" mode. In addition, the 765 can not read anything that occurs too soon after an index pulse, which rules out virtually any hard sector formats. > Based on what I have read, it appears the NorthStar disks are unreadable on > the PC without special hardware such as the MatchPoint PC and/or Catweasel > cards. That is correct. The index pulse is easily circumvented, by masking off the signal. There are a few boards available that connect to the drive between the FDC and the drive, to be able to look at the flux transitions, including Matchpoint, Apple Turnover, CopyII Option board, and Catweasel. It is also possible to kludge such a flux transition connection with a parallel printer port, thereby using absolutely minimal hardware. It is also possible to confuse the hell out of a 765 by switching drives in the middle of a read, using no additional hardware. Howzbout building an ISA version of the N* disk controller board that directly controls a floppy drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 14:36:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: working scale models (was Re: (no subject)) Message-ID: On 7/31/07, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > My wife does doll houses now and then. I have wondered whether a > fully functional (front panel, that is) 1/12 scale IMSAI would be possible. > Z80 processor, 64K RAM, maybe a few interesting front panel programs > in ROM... flip the bit, cylon eyes, simple count up/down. Run on a > watch battery. Hmm... A real IMSAI is what, 10.5" tall, 19" wide, and about 24"-36" deep? That sounds difficult to reproduce at 1/12th scale, but it might be possible to replicate an IMSAI front panel with fiber optics, run them under the floor of the doll house to a hidden Z-80 board (that could still be done with a lot of SMT to make it small). It comes to mind that a microSD card is on the close order of the dimensions of a 1/12-scale 8" floppy ;-) (2/3" x 2/3") -ethan From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 14:40:18 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:40:18 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70707310646n2c2c543bn17bc04f9b0fa97d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> <2f806cd70707310646n2c2c543bn17bc04f9b0fa97d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11c909eb0707311240k179e8316r29fe63a6e67534df@mail.gmail.com> On 31/07/07, Rob wrote: > > On 31/07/07, Simon Fryer wrote: > > > > > I think there would be a lot of interest. The initial stumbling block > > so far appears to be finding someone to organise it. > > Agreed - I am sure this has cropped up on the list before, too, with > the same conclusion. Venus shouldn't be a problem; there are plenty > of possibilities about, ranging from sports halls to places the size > of the NEC; although you'd need big pockets for the latter.. Just > pick a size and go from there.. > ISTR one of the US list members (Evan?) pointing out last time this came up (no more than a few months ago) that having some experience of organising a large event, while not essential, would make the whole thing a lot less stressful. A number of other points were made detailing many pitfalls that await the unwary. The thread went very quiet after that :) Some thoughts: Would it be acceptable/appropriate to hook up with one of the UK radio rallies? Would any museums be able to provide a venue - for example the Manchester Science+Industry Museum has stacks of space and a strong connection with early computing. Bletchley Park? -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Jul 31 15:07:38 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:07:38 +0100 Subject: working scale models (was Re: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd70707311307g58945800p3fdf7f66b1982d87@mail.gmail.com> > It comes to mind that a microSD card is on the close order of the > dimensions of a 1/12-scale 8" floppy ;-) (2/3" x 2/3") > .. and the 2GB example I have here is what, 8000 times the capacity of a DSDD floppy? wow... From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jul 31 15:40:18 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:40:18 -0400 Subject: working scale models (was Re: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 7/31/07, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > My wife does doll houses now and then. I have wondered whether a > > fully functional (front panel, that is) 1/12 scale IMSAI would > > be possible. > > Z80 processor, 64K RAM, maybe a few interesting front panel programs > > in ROM... flip the bit, cylon eyes, simple count up/down. Run on a > > watch battery. > > Hmm... A real IMSAI is what, 10.5" tall, 19" wide, and about 24"-36" > deep? That sounds difficult to reproduce at 1/12th scale, but it > might be possible to replicate an IMSAI front panel with fiber optics, > run them under the floor of the doll house to a hidden Z-80 board > (that could still be done with a lot of SMT to make it small). Hey! It's 19 and 1/2 inches wide ;-) But only 7 inches tall :-( If I ever do it, I might cheat and make it a full 2" wide. I was hoping to get most of (if not all of) the electronics into a single chip. The front panel switch size would be in the ballpark of DIP switches and there are micro surface mount LEDs that I calculated would fit, a problem might be that they might all blur together at full brightness. > It comes to mind that a microSD card is on the close order of the > dimensions of a 1/12-scale 8" floppy ;-) (2/3" x 2/3") Hans Franke mentioned the same thing when I shared the idea with him. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/927 - Release Date: 7/30/2007 5:02 PM From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 31 15:25:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:25:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard? In-Reply-To: <50D23E6B-13EF-4368-B894-798FA75AD877@feedle.net> from "Chris Sullivan" at Jul 30, 7 07:48:12 pm Message-ID: > The Goog isn't being much help with pinouts. Anybody have a pinout > spec for the //e? Y I don't even much care for the Apple ][ line, but I did buy the //e techref when I saw it... Here's a pinout for the 26 pin keyboard connector : 1 : Y0 2 : Y1 3 : +5V 4 : Y2 5 : N/C 6 : Y3 7 : N/C 8 : Y4 9 : N/C 10 : Y5 11 : Ctrl/ 12 : Y8 13 : Ground 14 : X0 15 : N/C 16 : X2 17 : X7 18 : X1 19 : X5 20 : X3 21 : X4 22 : Y9 23 : Y6 24 : Shift/ 25 : Y7 26 : X6 There is also a keypad connector, which is an 11 pin SIL thing. The pinout is : 1 : Y0 2 : Y1 3 : Y3 4 : Y4 5 : Y2 6 : Y5 7 : N/C 8 : X7 9 : X4 10 : X6 11 : X5 The Xn and Yn lines are the connections to the 2 'sides' of the switch matrix. Unfortunately, I can't find anything in the manual which gives a diagram of which key occupies each postiion in the matrix, and while, in the //e, the keyboard is scanned by a fairly standard encoder chip, the outputs of that go into an EPROM which effectively re-maps the keyboard. So I can't help you there. I beleive the shift and control keys are connected between the appropriate pins on the connector and ground, so those are easy... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 31 15:01:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:01:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: <46AF7045.8060807@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jul 31, 7 12:24:21 pm Message-ID: > > Some PS/2s used a spaecial floppy drive with, IIRC, a 40 pin card edge > > connecotr which carried both the logic signals and power. The signals > > were fairly conventional, though, and I might be able to dig out a pinout > > of the connnector if you need it. > > I've bootstrapped the machine using the previous DOS 3.3 on the hard > drive, MODE.COM, and a serial cable so that I can get software on/off > the hard drive, but not having a functional floppy drive makes me > nervous. But there's no rush (it's functional enough) so whenever you > get around to it is fine. And thanks! Form the PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef... 1 : -2nd Drive Installed 2 : -High Density Select (To Drive) 3 : Reserverd 4 : Reserved 5 : Ground 6 : Reserved 7 : Signal Ground 8 : -Index (From drive) 9 : Signal Ground 10 : Reserved 11 : Signal Ground 12 : -Drive Select (To Drive) 13 : Ground 14 : Reserved 15 : Signal Ground 16 : -Motor Enable (To Drive) 17 : Signal Ground 18 : -Direction In (To Drive) 19 : Signal Ground 20 : -Step (To Drive) 21 : Signal Ground 22 : -Write Date (To Drive) 23 : Signal Ground 24 : -Write Enable (To Drive) 25 : Singal Ground 26 : -Track 0 (From Drive) 27 : Signal Ground 28 : -Write Protect (From Drive) 29 : Signal Ground 30 : -Read Data (From Drive) 31 : Signal Ground 32 : -Head 1 Select (To Drive) 33 : Signal Ground 34 : -Diskette Change (From Drive) 35 : Ground 36 : Ground 37 : Ground 38 : +5V DC 39 : Ground 40 : +12V DC The polarising key is between pins 34 and 36 I beleive (the manual doesn't meantion it that '-2nd Drive installed' is pulled low by the disk drive, probably by that pin being connected to ground. The system detects that on the second drive connector to see that a second drive is installed. IIRC, a '-' at the start of the signal name means an active-low signal. One thing that strikes me about this pinout is the amazing similarity between the first 34 pins and the pinout of a normal floppy drive :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 31 15:55:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:55:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> from "Joe Giliberti" at Jul 30, 7 07:17:49 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks for your advice, Tony. To address question #1, I'm honestly not too > sure. I figure ha wih the early micros, there is documentation, where as > something completely homebrew, there is little, if any. What I need to find > is a good resource for electronic circuit design. I have a book called "How The book I certainly recoemnd is 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill. It's expensive, sure. But I doubt you'll 'grow out of it' quickly. Put it this way, I consider I have some knowledge of electronics (and I trust eome others here agree with that), but I certainly don't know everything in that book. I still refer to it quite often. It starts from the 'what is a resistor' level, and goes on to microprocesors' It's a very 'practical' book, very little maths. There is also a 'lab manual' called 'The Student Manual for the Art of Electroics'. Certainly the second edition [1] contains a design for simple 68008-based microcmputer built on those solderless breadboard things [2]. There's no reason why you couldn't make it on stripboard or by wire-wrap, or... and/or expand it a little. I forget what's in the first edition of the book, maybe an 8085 or z80 baed design. [1] I like the books so much that I bought both editions of both books... [2] Personally I hate those things. Too many unreliable connections, too much stray capacitance. There's so much you can't do with them, you might as well solder the stuff up from the start! > to Build Your Own Working Microcomputer" that I bought for under a dollar at > a thrift store. I still need to finish it, but it doesn't seem to be much > help in that respect. > > As for your second question, I would find it to be really fascinating to > build a computer out of TTL, but again, I need some kind of resource to > guide me through it. All my knowledge on electronic circuitry is very basic Thinking about it, I would suggest making youre first homebrew somputer using a normal microprocessor. You can get some experience of TTL circuitry my making interfaces for that. When you've got said experience, you will probalby be ready to have a go at ddesigning a processor. If/when you get that far, you might want to read some of the technical manauls and scheamtics for minicomputers, etc. Not to copy such a design gate-for-gate, but to see how things were done and learn a few tricks. I remember I learnt a lot from reading the CPU manual for the Philips P850 and then the one for the DEC PDP11/45 (Knowing what I do now, I'd not recomend starting with either machine, but it's what I had...) > right now. My father, an electrical engineer, tells be that he couldn't > even do it after six years of college(although, he graduated 20 years ago), > so I'm not very hopeful that I could. All I can asy is that I don't have any qulaifications in computing, electrical enginering or electronic engineering, and I've designed a simple processor. It's _possible_ > Third, commercial software would be nice, but I don't need it. I would very > much like to learn machine code. I figure that when I start college > interviews in a year going toward something in the technology field, I'd > like to have as much pre-knowledge of computer science as I can. I figure I'm not sure how much good it will do you. Certainly the courses over here (UK) seem to have little, if any, hardware or machine code programming in them. But perhpas I've just been unlucky... > that there's no better way than to build and program a computer. It will > take me a long time, but it would be worth it. TO be honsest, I doubt you'll get it all done in a year. This doesn't mean uoi shouldn't start, of course, and to be honest, I would consider what you learn from this to be a lot more valuable than the end product, and of course you'll be learning all the time so you will have something to talk to the interviewer about :-) I know that if _I_ was interviewing somebody I would be impressed if they were in the process of designing/building a computer., sicne I would realise all the practical stuff they must have picked up on the way. > > Finally, I would most definitely use chip sockets. I don't want to risk heat > damage to components if I can just solder in sockets and install the actual > ICs later. It may not be as good for reliability, but it is better for ease > of design and construction I've never overheated a chip by soldering it... But the real advantage of using sockets is that you can, say, pull a chip and force the pins to high and low states. You can pull your processor , ROM and RAM chips and check for shorts on the data bus with an ohmmeter. That sort of thing. One other point. Use decoupling capacitors. At least 1 0.1uF between power and ground close to each IC. That may be overkill, but I can assure you the cost of some disk ceramic capacitors is a lot less than your time in finding a nasty glitch. I speak from bitter experience here. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 31 17:53:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:53:32 -0400 Subject: newbie building a scratch-built computer In-Reply-To: <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <2b1f1f550707300843v187305e0w795a0eb09c45cdf6@mail.gmail.com> <2b1f1f550707301617n235e1224rab20ca388e41553a@mail.gmail.com> <200707311130.21991.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <11641C11-9309-4644-BBC6-21E580D7D661@neurotica.com> On Jul 31, 2007, at 11:30 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> As for your second question, I would find it to be really >> fascinating to >> build a computer out of TTL, but again, I need some kind of >> resource to >> guide me through it. All my knowledge on electronic circuitry is >> very basic >> right now. My father, an electrical engineer, tells be that he >> couldn't >> even do it after six years of college(although, he graduated 20 >> years ago), >> so I'm not very hopeful that I could. >> >> Third, commercial software would be nice, but I don't need it. I >> would very >> much like to learn machine code. I figure that when I start college >> interviews in a year going toward something in the technology >> field, I'd >> like to have as much pre-knowledge of computer science as I can. I >> figure >> that there's no better way than to build and program a computer. >> It will >> take me a long time, but it would be worth it. > > That sort of thing tends to not have very much use in today's job > market, > unfortunately. That's absolutely correct, because most HR drones don't actually look for people who know anything about computers. If Joe wants to learn something about computers, as opposed to learning only what's guaranteed to get him a job in a suitly company, then I very strongly recommend that he pursue the path that he discussed above. Joe...As for your not being hopeful about building a TTL-based computer from scratch...The knowledge required to do it is readily available. If you REALLY want to do it, you can. Your father's assertion that he couldn't do it after six years of college is really irrelevant here...not many college EE programs teach anything about low-level computer architecture, and sadly, even fewer CS programs do. Learn about boolean algebra, learn about Karnaugh maps and other minimization techniques, learn about combinatorial and sequential logic...not only will you be able to design and build a TTL-based computer, but you'll end up knowing more about *computers* (as opposed to "how to install Microsoft products on PCs") than most anyone churned out by today's colleges. Further (also directed at Joe)...As you already very obviously know, it's actually possible for one to learn something without it being spoon-fed in a school. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From rcini at optonline.net Tue Jul 31 18:01:20 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:01:20 -0400 Subject: Source code cross referencing tools? In-Reply-To: <46AEB84E.8030106@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: This list is a mix of both on-topic and off-topic stuff. If you notice the email alias it was sent to, it went to the "both" list. There had been talk of separating the lists but one still feeds the other. Believe me, I don't want to be the catalyst or the target of scorn at all. Now that I'm on the defensive, the relevance is that this tool is being used to analyze source code of a program that's part of a 6502-based emulation project I'm working on. I believe that the 6502 qualifies as "classic" and so does "emulation of old machines". I didn't feel it necessary to justify the need for the info (to which no less than 10 people have responded with very helpful links and pointers -- thanks) since (1) it is for a classic-related project and (2) I've been on this list since 1998 and the UWash days and people know I don't ask meaningless, time-wasting questions. I feel I can ask an occasional question of one of the most knowledgeable group of technology people I know. Sorry to have bothered you. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 31 18:02:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:02:56 -0700 Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: References: <46AF7045.8060807@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jul 31, 7 12:24:21 pm, Message-ID: <46AF5D30.11370.3A880498@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2007 at 21:01, Tony Duell wrote: > Form the PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef... > > 40 : +12V DC That's really odd. By the time the PS/2 was around, every 3.5" drive that I can think of in current production at the time used +5 only. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 31 18:09:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:09:47 -0700 Subject: working scale models (was Re: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46AF5ECB.12644.3A8E4C38@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2007 at 14:36, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... A real IMSAI is what, 10.5" tall, 19" wide, and about 24"-36" > deep? That sounds difficult to reproduce at 1/12th scale, but it > might be possible to replicate an IMSAI front panel with fiber optics, > run them under the floor of the doll house to a hidden Z-80 board > (that could still be done with a lot of SMT to make it small). Golly, the microprocessors they're coming out with nowadays would be pretty much to scale on a chip basis. Consider, for example, the ST ST/7 MPUs in TFBGA packaging--what, 4mm square? With an instruction set similar to a 6502, you should come close to building a KIM-1 to scale--if only you could find a small-enough display and keypad... Instead of doing a PDP-8 on an FPGA, you might as well emulate one in software on one of the available MCUs. Think of what you could do with, say, a Parallax Propeller or even one of the ARM9 chips... Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue Jul 31 18:16:30 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:16:30 -0400 Subject: Test, ignore Message-ID: <005901c7d3c8$d56a4560$eb4df945@evan> From evan at snarc.net Tue Jul 31 18:24:29 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:24:29 -0400 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0707311240k179e8316r29fe63a6e67534df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006101c7d3c9$f295f6b0$eb4df945@evan> >>> ISTR one of the US list members (Evan?) pointing out last time this came up (no more than a few months ago) that having some experience of organizing a large event, while not essential, would make the whole thing a lot less stressful. A number of other points were made detailing many pitfalls that await the unwary. The thread went very quiet after that :) Yes. Another thing to consider is that you can't just make an event an call it a Vintage Computer Festival. That is a trademark, etc. belonging to Sellam. He's glad to help people who are serious about hosting a new VCF, however. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 31 20:09:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:09:46 -0400 Subject: From-scratch PDP-8 (was Re: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24657CA9-977F-4444-8835-DF1B0B2AEBAC@neurotica.com> On Jul 31, 2007, at 1:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... that does sound interesting. A 320x200 LCD panel isn't > expensive (I have several raw ones on hand w/touch sensors), and could > be driven to 80 cols w/a 3x5 font (as was once used to give the C-64 > "80 columns"). A "really cheap" terminal could be an older Palm Pilot > running one of the extant terminal emulators, sharing a new enclosure > with the PDP-8 board, attached internally via TTL serial. Certainly doable. Jim Kearney's IOB6120 does a nice VT52 emulation; adding an LCD driver to that (given enough FPGA space) would be a project, but it'd be doable. >> Might make an interesting coversation piece. > > I think a 12-bit hand-held would be pretty cool. That would be EXTREMELY cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 31 20:35:17 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:35:17 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <332EAC95-934B-420F-AA97-89C0B6D906AB@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire > >On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:41 AM, woodelf wrote: >>Now on to the next problem is TTL prom programing. >>I ordered 74S472's and got MB7124H's. So is prom substitution >>common? >>So who on the list can program proms since they are >>needed on the larger machines and any microcoded projects >>now drifting around this list? > > I can program pretty much everything except 1702s here. > > -Dave > Hi I can do 1702A but not 1702's. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 31 20:35:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: <46AF5D30.11370.3A880498@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46AF7045.8060807@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jul 31, 7 12:24:21 pm, <46AF5D30.11370.3A880498@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070731183438.C89591@shell.lmi.net> > > Form the PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef... > > 40 : +12V DC On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's really odd. By the time the PS/2 was around, every 3.5" drive > that I can think of in current production at the time used +5 only. But sometimes cabled to a DC37 for an _IBM_ external 5.25" From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jul 31 20:40:12 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:40:12 -0700 Subject: MicroNova In-Reply-To: <46AEFD5D.24817.3911B589@cclist.sydex.com> References: <9FDB1590358E7F4489C8E3343A360C79BB31DA@exchange01.epssecurity.com> <46AEFD5D.24817.3911B589@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46AFE47C.7050109@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 31 Jul 2007 at 9:49, Kevin Andres wrote: > > > >Well yes, but to stay on topic, the CPU chip more than the whole >machine... > >Cheers, >Chuck > > Both Data General and Honeywell's level 6 were sunk by ill concieved projects to generate chips way too late in the game to make any money at it. I know the Honeywell system was plug compatable with the level 6, which had boards even larger than the Nova. Gee, one board with some asics or a 40 or 50 pin chip and a board full of asics to get the same cpu in honeywell's case. Dec almost but not quite made a go of their chips. Jim From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jul 31 21:03:38 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:03:38 -0700 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> > > I picked up a pair of SM91-2's on eBay years ago. They do indeed > work in > > an SS20 -- for a while. Then I think the heat catches up with them... > > Every time I installed them (I must've tried singles and pairs) it > would > > be fine, I'd go do something else, and I'd come back to a locked up > machine. > > > > I have had the same experience with 80MHz CPUs in my SS20. I finally > had > to settle for 2x50MHz and some stability instead. > > Steve Hmm- anyone managed to get the SM81s to work reliably in a SPARCstation 20 SMP? I have a SS20/2xSM81 as my SMP Sun- haven't used it much yet but if in general they have stability issues I should probably do something else. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 21:33:07 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:33:07 -0400 Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: <46AF5D30.11370.3A880498@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46AF7045.8060807@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jul 31, 7 12:24:21 pm, <46AF5D30.11370.3A880498@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46AFF0E3.5040703@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Jul 2007 at 21:01, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Form the PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef... >> >> 40 : +12V DC > > That's really odd. By the time the PS/2 was around, every 3.5" drive > that I can think of in current production at the time used +5 only. Just because it's on the connector doesn't mean it was used. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 31 22:54:58 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:54:58 -0700 Subject: Help on finding photos of computers from the 80's In-Reply-To: <46AF7326.AC320793@west.net> References: <46AF7326.AC320793@west.net> Message-ID: <46B00412.6000503@sbcglobal.net> I received this email from Rachel after she found my web site. If there is anyone who can help they should contact her directly. Probably should be photos you took of your own systems and own the rights to. Bob ************************************************************************************************************************ Bob, Thanks for your speedy reply. I enjoyed checking out your site. I was looking for pictures of old computers in general, so I forwarded some pictures from your site to my boss. One was of the Heathkit. He advised me that he would rather me find computers from the 80's. Do you have any suggestions on where I could find pictures of that era of computer? I haven't had much luck with stock photo websites. Thanks again, Rachel Morgan rachelrose at fuse.net Hello there, I found your website looking for images of old computers for a TV series I am working on. The show is called American Shopper and airs on the Fine Living Network. I would love to use a couple of the images as reference photos for a computer segment we are working on. Is there someone specific I could talk to about the use of the photos? I know for a fact that we could mention the website in the credits with a special thank you. Please reply as soon as possible as we are putting the segment together in the coming weeks. Even if we can't use the photos, I would appreciate any helpful information you could give us. Thanks! Rachel Rose Morgan jay TV Producer rachelrose at fuse.net From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 31 23:29:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:29:56 -0700 Subject: PS/2 Model 25 repair info? In-Reply-To: <20070731183438.C89591@shell.lmi.net> References: <46AF7045.8060807@oldskool.org>, <46AF5D30.11370.3A880498@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070731183438.C89591@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46AFA9D4.23239.3BB36332@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jul 2007 at 18:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > But sometimes cabled to a DC37 for an _IBM_ external 5.25" On a model 25? I didn't think one could cable up an external 5.25" drive to the primary diskette controller on it. Didn't this require the type 2 (enhanced) adapter? In the MCA models, the external 5.25" drives had its own PSU and controller (Diskette Adapter/A). In any case, this might be helpful to some: http://www.tavi.co.uk/ps2pages/fdadapt.html http://www.mcamafia.de/pdf/ibm_hitrc06.pdf Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 31 23:36:23 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:36:23 -0700 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200707312136.23764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 31 July 2007 19:03, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > I picked up a pair of SM91-2's on eBay years ago. They do indeed > > > > work in > > > > > an SS20 -- for a while. Then I think the heat catches up with them... > > > Every time I installed them (I must've tried singles and pairs) it > > > > would > > > > > be fine, I'd go do something else, and I'd come back to a locked up > > > > machine. > > > > > > I have had the same experience with 80MHz CPUs in my SS20. I finally > > had > > to settle for 2x50MHz and some stability instead. > > > > Steve > > Hmm- anyone managed to get the SM81s to work reliably in a SPARCstation > 20 SMP? > > I have a SS20/2xSM81 as my SMP Sun- haven't used it much yet but if in > general they have stability issues I should probably do something else. I ran a SS20 with Dual ROSS 125MHz CPUs. They got seriously hot. Also ran another SS20 w/Dual SR71s. Both the SR71 and ROSS needed an unique EPROM upgrade to run without "freezing" (hanging) the system. Perhaps that's the issue with your SM91-2 (as opposed to heat)??? You might want to post a query to the suns-at-home at net-kitchen.com list to get the EPROM upgrade if required for the SM91 (if someone else doesn't respond on this list with same). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 31 23:36:24 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:36:24 -0700 Subject: Fast MBus modules In-Reply-To: <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> References: <200707311712.l6VHC1b7020707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14c11d43e92432f59adfdc7ef9aa511f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 7:03 PM -0700 7/31/07, Scott Quinn wrote: >> > I picked up a pair of SM91-2's on eBay years ago. They do indeed work in >>> an SS20 -- for a while. Then I think the heat catches up with them... >>> Every time I installed them (I must've tried singles and pairs) it would >>> be fine, I'd go do something else, and I'd come back to a locked >>>up machine. >>> >> >>I have had the same experience with 80MHz CPUs in my SS20. I finally had >>to settle for 2x50MHz and some stability instead. >> >>Steve > >Hmm- anyone managed to get the SM81s to work reliably in a >SPARCstation 20 SMP? > >I have a SS20/2xSM81 as my SMP Sun- haven't used it much yet but if >in general they have stability issues I should probably do something >else. I've been nice and stable with a pair of SM71's. What I think would be cool to try is a pair of the dual CPU boards for a quad CPU system (I think they were 50Mhz). I ran my SS20 like this for quite some time before I upgraded to an UltraSparc based system. My big problem is with the hard drives, most of my SCA drives are 7200 or 10k RPM, which tend to run to hot for Sun Pizza boxes, and the bearings seem to go out. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 23:50:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:50:05 -0400 Subject: Roland CM-500 Message-ID: <46B010FD.3030205@gmail.com> Anyone know where I can get a Roland CM-500? Also, does anyone know if there was ever a fully MT-32 compatible card for the Wave Blaster interface? I'm upgrading my DOS gaming box. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 31 14:44:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:44:49 -0400 Subject: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC Message-ID: <0JM200CZ16TWEQ70@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Reading NorthStar Horizon hard sector disks on PC > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:18:41 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 31 Jul 2007 at 9:53, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> Also, the N* disks are hard-sectored. This means that the controller >> needs to see the individual holes to know where each sector data >> starts. The PC disk controller has no means to aligning individual >> sector data to index holes, even if it could see the sector data. > >Not all Northstar diskettes are HS. One of the models (Advantage?) >isn't--and it's that format that the Microsolutions MatchPoint will >read, not the others. It's been too long since I've seen the darned >things... Error! Advanatge is the same format as the MDS [Aka Horizon) and does both SD and DD formats. Least mine does. I believe there was an aftermarket board that would fit the Advantage bus (non S100) to provide things like a soft sector FDC. There was also a hard disk controller. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck From james at machineroom.info Tue Jul 31 14:47:43 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:47:43 +0100 Subject: UK VCF? In-Reply-To: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <200707310914.26961.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <46AF91DF.5070307@machineroom.info> Mark Wickens wrote: > Just a curious question for the folks in the UK... > > Has there ever been a VCF UK? Do you think there would be much interest in > one? > > Mark. > I'd be interested