From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 00:39:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:39:13 -0700 Subject: [SPAM] - Retrospective or, misleading hindsight. - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: <44F7A4B9.4030102@compsys.to> References: <200608261153250453.04D21825@10.0.0.252> <44F7A4B9.4030102@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200608312239130302.01BD96BE@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 11:10 PM Jerome H. Fine wrote: >Back in the early 1970's, CDC set up a facility in Toronto. Yup, you guys had the STAR-65 (eventually sold for scrap). Most of the FORTRAN compiler came from Toronto. >One of the initial goals was to produce an operating system >for the STAR-100 which I seem to remember had many of the >advanced features found in a current high quality OS such as >VMS. That was probably the RED system. What was finally adopted as the one for the field was the one done at Lawrence Livermore in IMPL (a dialect of LRLTRAN). Quite a bit different--but it made sense. LLL was the only STAR-100 customer. The instruction set also included VECTOR instructions >such as the ability to multiply up to 64K elements times >a second set of 64K elements and place the products in a >third set of 64K elements. Such an instruction would make >use of 3 registers to specify each of the 3 sets of elements >(high order 16 bits of each register was the count and low >order 48 bits of each register was the virtual memory address). You forgot the control and/or sparse bit vectors that went along with the operands. So a vector instruction could have 6 operands. If one used the large page size (64Kwords), and positioned the operands so that the first superword straddled a page boundary, it was possible to create a condition wherein it was impossible for the instruction to have the necessary pages in memory simultaneously. Addressing was bit, not byte, or word. However, the boundary had to agree with operand size. So a bit vector could start on any address, but a byte had to land on a byte boundary (lower 3 bits of the address zero); a halfword on a halfword address, etc. And there were some very very exotic instructions. (Remember Search Masked Key Bit and the BCD arithmetic (128K max digits) instructions? >A standard OS function was the ability to associate >(MAP) a file to an address range which the OS then managed >for the user when any portion of the MAPPED file was accessed >if any memory within the file range was referenced. The problem was that mapped file I/O was far easier than the conventional double-buffered sort, so that the pager became the vehicle for most file I/O, which didn't help performance much. >For example, if the user program referenced >some code or data in virtual memory that was currently on >disk and not presently in physical memory, a page fault >occurred. Prior to the user program continuing execution, >the OS discarded a LEAST RECENTLY used page, then read into >physical memory the newly referenced page. Initial versions of the operating system used simple demand paging. Performance with many codes was dreadful. A program could help things along by issuing OS ADVISE calls to notify the pager that a specific VM access was coming up, but these turned out to be worthless. The OS eventually migrated to a working set algorithm, which was much better (Remember the DEADBEEF kernel crash code?). When the "know it alls" with the CYBER 180 OS design made their presentation in Sunnyvale and described a demand pager, I stood up and asked them where the he-double-matchsticks they'd had their heads for the last few years. Seems they didn't realize that CDC already had a virtual memory machine--and some folks who knew a thing or two about paging algorithms. I was furious. One very neat feature of the operating system was the "drop file", essentially a collection and map of all changed pages (and I/O information) of the program (called a "controllee") that was running. You could interrupt your program and resume execution days or weeks later by simply invoking the drop file instead of the original controllee. The OS featured a message-passing feature. When your program was finished, it passed the ASCII message "All Done" to its parent. There was no specific "End of Job" system call. >By the way, because the STAR-100 was so expensive, a baby >called the PL-50 was produced which had the same instruction >set and registers, but ran much slower. We also had STAR-1B's at Sunnyvale for a time which probably ran slower than 1/100th the speed of the 100. That wouldn't have been so bad, except that they weren't all that reliable, either. It used the same stations as the 100. It took the CE's almost 2 weeks to reduce the two of them to junk. I still have a heat sink from one, filched out of a dumpster. >All of this took place more than 30 years ago. Seems like yesterday sometimes. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 00:44:17 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:44:17 +1200 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: <44F628D7.1000606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 9/1/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 > > rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display > > device? > > Sure did. The obvious example is the PDP11/34 front panel, which used > 7-segment LED displays. > > I am pretty sure the PDP8/a used the same sort of display. Yes. I have a PDP-8/a programmer's panel (LEDs and pushbuttons) - it is native octal. Of course, just to be different, there's an optional null job for RTS-8 that counts from 0000 through 1111, 2222... 8888, 9999 by toggling between two numbers to display 8888 and 9999 on an octal display. I can't remember the numbers, but I'm sure it's easy to tell by wading through the RTS-8 source code. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 00:46:34 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:46:34 +1200 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: <200608311813190833.00CA2A9D@10.0.0.252> <200608312140.54426.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/1/06, William Donzelli wrote: > A few years back I bought out the basement of an old Burroughs ECD > guy, and I seem to remember seeing something about hex Nixies. In the > zillions of Nixies I got out of there, none were hex, although there > were many real oddballs in the bunch (Pixies, dual numeral, symbols). > Who knows - perhaps hex Nixies never got out of the lab. I remember reading recently on a Nixie clock web page that 12 shaped electrodes was about the limit for a nixie (no matter what the shape). I'd guess that there a) wasn't enough depth, and b) too much blockage of the rear-most electrodes to be useful and/or c) not enough pins in the base. I'm not saying that nobody made hex nixies, but I think they were rare even back in the day. -ethan From marvin at rain.org Fri Sep 1 01:05:02 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:05:02 -0700 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal Message-ID: <44F7CD8E.22AEB343@rain.org> > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > I wouldn't mind getting some nixies to play with at some point, but it's not > a real high priority item on my list. I did have one assembly that I picked I've found that nixies are not very hard to find; just check out older test equipment. I picked three pieces of test equipment a couple of weeks ago for basically nothing, each of which was working and used nixies for the displays. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Sep 1 01:09:17 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:09:17 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <01C6CD6B.A5C6C5E0@ppp130.195-96-207.hull.mt.videotron.ca> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:19:07 -0400 From: Allison Subject: Re: Octal >Lesse, While the calc on my NT4 box has most of the right stuff it >doesn't do logic (AND, OR, XOR, NOT) and if I ask for a "tape" the >printer is at the other side of the room. Feh! -------------------------- No problem; just move the printer! ;-> The Windows Calculator (am I breaking any rules here? :) does indeed have shortcomings, but there are some pretty useful others out there with all your logic functions, 4/8/16/32 bit modes, ASCII and unit conversions, etc. And for accounting stuff, a printing calc is indeed useful; use one myself for certain things. I was just musing that in general people seem to be more comfortable with calculators (even non-printing ones) than computer versions. (And looking for and correcting errors in long columns of figures is a lot more convenient in a spreadsheet.) >Often I need the result when NOT at a PC. Aw, c'mon Allison (and Tony); someone asked whether anyone still had a TI Programmer and I replied, yes, I do but generally use the Windows calculator instead (because of some of the same shortcomings you yourself mentioned); aside from the obligatory "*I* don't _use_ Winblows" replies there were one or two saying that it and computer calcs in general were "a pain" ("can't see the point") and I asked why. I didn't say that they were "better" or that you should throw your pocket calc away and use a laptop when you're away from your desk. Just that for the usual _programming_ stuff, converting bases & doing hex/octal/binary arithmetic, it's convenient to have a calculator right there on the same keyboard that you're programming on (and perhaps one or two people weren't aware that the Win Calc has hex & binary (and octal, the thread of this discussion) modes; I know that I didn't realize it until well into W98). Sheesh... mike From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 1 02:17:55 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:17:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: "Chuck Guzis" "Re: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986" (Aug 31, 19:33) References: <000d01c6cd5e$f3ddff30$6600a8c0@barry> <200608312155.19603.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608311933450517.0113CAE3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <10609010817.ZM14021@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Aug 31 2006, 19:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 2) The matter of musical copying has cost many universities so much money > to settle, that several have the policy that illegal copying of music (and > for all I know, other materials) is grounds for dismissal (faculty) or > expulsion (students). It's similar here in the UK. Moreover, every photocopier in our University, and in others I've seen, has a notice beside it stating the rules, and spelling out what the allowed "fair use" exceptions are. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 1 03:08:14 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:08:14 -0700 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> <44F73AD9.9050801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44F7EA5D.A0215C96@cs.ubc.ca> woodelf wrote: > Well can't you use neon tube logic and nixie tubes + a few diodes to > make a clock. This ain't high freq stuff here. Neat idea .. looked up the glow bulb logic manual and there is a circuit for a ring counter. Each stage requires 1 neon bulb, 1 diode, 1 resistor and 1 capacitor. So in theory one could build a 12-hour 6-digit digital clock (60Hz-line timebase) with 3*(10+6)+12=60 neon bulbs. Perhaps 61, using another bulb to square up the 60Hz line trigger. Might need amplifiers between digits. However, my understanding of neon logic is that it's great in theory, but not so much in practice. The characteristics between bulbs vary enough to make implementation awkward and the characteristics of the bulbs vary over time, leading to reliability problems. As the description of ring counters in the the manual says: "Lamps should be aged for best results and some selection may be desirable." There was a discussion about these issues for neon-lamp-memory on the list in May 2005. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Sep 1 05:44:58 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:44:58 +0200 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <10609010007.ZM12931@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: "Hans Franke" "Re: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)" (Aug 31, 12:34) Message-ID: <44F82B4A.24727.5D133B1E@localhost> Am 1 Sep 2006 0:07 meinte Pete Turnbull: > On Aug 31 2006, 12:34, Hans Franke wrote: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > Interesting question. I know that the last time I was paying > > > attention to that area, embedded systems were starting to use > > > 386 chips. And my Tek scope has an 8088 in it... > > After all, it doesn't doesn't realy matter what CPU is used, as > > long as it does it's job as a black box controll system. > > But yeah, Pentiums (and alikes) are already the base for most new > > embedded developments. > "Most"? I don't think so. 2 billion ARM/XScale cores licensed in the > last 12 months, and about a quarter that number of MIPS chips/cores. > Pentiums don't even come close. Well, yes, you got me nailed down there. I was only thinking in the area of low volume embedded system - classic machinery control, idustrial applications. That's here the part I know most, and where I found that x86 is strong. Would it be better phrased if I said: Pentums and alikes are by now the majority of new x86 based embedded systems? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From fryers at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 06:03:34 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:03:34 +0100 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <44F82B4A.24727.5D133B1E@localhost> References: <10609010007.ZM12931@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <44F82B4A.24727.5D133B1E@localhost> Message-ID: All, On 9/1/06, Hans Franke wrote: [Arm processors being embedded] > Well, yes, you got me nailed down there. I was only thinking > in the area of low volume embedded system - classic machinery > control, idustrial applications. That's here the part I know > most, and where I found that x86 is strong. Please don't confirm my fears by saying the Siemens S7 series of PLCs is x86 based. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ray at arachelian.com Fri Sep 1 06:07:19 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 07:07:19 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608302217220434.015AD835@10.0.0.252> References: <01C6CC8C.F10BADC0@MSE_D03> <44F65B53.3000108@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608302217220434.015AD835@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F81467.3050105@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Depends on the calculator. I use this one all of the time and would love > to have it in a nice little handheld: > > http://www.bias.at/Download/english/calcdle.htm > > But it does the job right now I tend to use TextCalc when on machines with braindead OS's (read windows.) It's nice, except that it doesn't easily handle hex, and it doesn't handle binary and octal at all. But it's very useful when you want to write down your thoughts and do calculations at the same time. http://www.atomixbuttons.com/textcalc/ Wish there was a better version where I could say (0xfffffff8 & 10.10.66.22) and have it spit out =10.6.66.0 right next to it for example. :-) Would love something like that on the unixes. For now I can use the print command under bwbasic which someone has wisely compiled as a shell program. From river at zip.com.au Fri Sep 1 06:42:27 2006 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:42:27 +1000 Subject: Fluke TK80A References: <200609010549.k815mtZH007673@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00c901c6cdbb$b363d300$6601a8c0@riverxp> Hi, I'm checking through some of my old stuff and I have a Fluke TK80A, which appears to be a single board computer or training system. It has an 8080 CPU, 1K of RAM (2114), an EPROM and a membrane keypad, some 7-seg LEDs and a few switches. Other than the power connector it has no external connecters or sockets - so I assume it's a standalone system. Some of the LEDs and switches are stamped "ADDR 10000 Output Port" and other addresses that are over 10000 (ie 100F9)- which has me perplexed as the address limit of the 8080 is FFFF and the IO range only goes to FF? I'm going to check it over and apply some power to see what it does (if anything). However, if anyone has heard of this board or know something about it could you please illuminate me to its purpose? river -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/435 - Release Date: 31/08/2006 From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Sep 1 07:01:44 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:01:44 +0200 Subject: Siemens PCS7 (was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: References: <44F82B4A.24727.5D133B1E@localhost> Message-ID: <44F83D48.20761.5D59814A@localhost> Am 1 Sep 2006 12:03 meinte Simon Fryer: > On 9/1/06, Hans Franke wrote: > [Arm processors being embedded] > > Well, yes, you got me nailed down there. I was only thinking > > in the area of low volume embedded system - classic machinery > > control, idustrial applications. That's here the part I know > > most, and where I found that x86 is strong. > Please don't confirm my fears by saying the Siemens S7 series of PLCs > is x86 based. Well, for one the PCS7 (or are you talking about the FSC TFT-Display S7, or the Siemens S7 mobile phone?) is definitly upper edge, for large scale control. And I don'T know all components or internals here. At least the OS (operating Station) part is Win2k based, and all development tools are Windows based - thus it's safe to assume that his PC anf 19" boxes hav at least one Pentium inside. For the AS and ET processors I realy don't know. The software is bundeled as a 'PCS-Library', and I'm prety shure that at least some of the perhipherals use 166/167 CPUs. BTW, a real neat chip. 8 register sets with 4 'virtual' cores - task switch in a single clock cycles between these - it's realy easy to programm communication and controll applications with a great degree of paralell processing. To my memory, the PCS 7 is the follow up to the TELEPERM, for quite large installations (aka chemical industry, car manufacurer, etc. THe TELEPERM has been around since the late 70s, based on custom CPUs. The migration did go smooth since the dezentralized approach and most protokolls where kept, or have been ported back. My guess is that there migh be Pentiums, but rather running portet (or new) Versions of the old custom minis. Anyway, I can not realy relive you here. But then again, for real world applications (beside the geekisch ivory tower of the beauty of CPUs), all that counts is if the System does a reliable performance of what I want it to do. If they can tame a Pentium (and Windows) to do the trick, fine with me - for the job! Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ray at arachelian.com Fri Sep 1 07:03:07 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:03:07 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F8217B.4080103@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, so let's turn back the clock 5 more years and set the cutoff at 25 > years to 1981. That would let out many of your favorite workstations, IBM > PC-XTs, all VAXen but for the 11/1780 and the 11/750, the Next boxes and > even a few CP/M 8-bitters. Conversation on the list would slow to a > trickle, methinks. > > It's interesting that the computer field seems to model a biological > system. There's a tremendous amount of species diversity in a young forest > of, say, Douglas fir. As the stand matures, the heavy shade cover forces > out most other plants until one is pretty much left with Douglas fir and > various mosses and ferns that can tolerate the shade. > > Right now, we're looking at what appears to me to be a mature technological > system--we've got nothing but a forest of Pentiums and Pentium look-alikes > with other minor CPUs occupying the role of embedded support functions. > You've seen one, you've seen them all. Short of a major upheaval, I'd > expect things to stay like this for a very long time. And it's boring. > Actually, I'd prefer a much easier metric: if it's a computing device of some sort, and it isn't made anymore, it should be on topic. This would of course allow conversations about more modern things such as Alpha's, PowerPC based Mac's, Be and NeXT computers, but I'm not against that, and they certainly are classics in my book. While it might be boring to some, I wouldn't mind some discussions of Pentium I's and II's - there are plenty of old PC's out there that could be put to good use. Like you, I love the whole biological analogy of computer evolution. The main thing of importance is diversity. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 1 07:18:04 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 07:18:04 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: References: <200608310018.k7V0Ihji016748@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060901071731.04ab76f0@mail> At 06:21 PM 8/31/2006, you wrote: >I am seriously considering unsubscribing over this. Not because of the >noise on the list. Not because I have any particular love of the >10-year-rule (or any other date-related rule). But because I now have no >idea what this list is actually supposed to be talking about. And there >seems little point in remaining on such a list. This is the antique clock repair and European classic car repair list. You'll love it. There's this very smart and generous UK guy on the list who will answer many obscure computer repair questions in great detail, too. - John From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 1 09:19:44 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Peter Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:19:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) References: "Hans Franke" "Re: Statement & apology(was Re: 10 Year Rule)" (Aug 31, 12:34) Message-ID: <200609011419.k81EJiOo014789@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Hans wrote: > Well, yes, you got me nailed down there. I was only thinking > in the area of low volume embedded system - classic machinery [ ... ] > Would it be better phrased if I said: Pentums and alikes are > by now the majority of new x86 based embedded systems? LOL! Yes, I couldn't fault you for that :-) Tek scopes and ATMs come to mind, but there are others, I know. -- Pete From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Sep 1 10:07:04 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:07:04 +0200 Subject: x86 Embedded (was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: <200609011419.k81EJiOo014789@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <44F868B8.21638.5E032ECA@localhost> Am 1 Sep 2006 15:19 meinte Peter Turnbull: > Hans wrote: > > Well, yes, you got me nailed down there. I was only thinking > > in the area of low volume embedded system - classic machinery > [ ... ] > > Would it be better phrased if I said: Pentums and alikes are > > by now the majority of new x86 based embedded systems? > LOL! Yes, I couldn't fault you for that :-) > Tek scopes and ATMs come to mind, but there are others, I know. It seams as if this also shows a migration trend, how certain technology levels move into applications. While a Z80 (or other 8 Bit general purpose chips like 6800 or 6502) where desktop CPUs in the late 70s, they became the choice for embedded systems in the early 80s, then in the late 80s highly enhanced versions (read wit lots of additional perhiperie) moved them into consumer products and total volume markets. where they lived well until the mid 90s. Similar 16 Bit 8088/86 CPUs moved in the Desktop in the early 80s, moved into embedded in the late 80s, where 186 systems where still big the late 90s ... to be replaced by 32 Bit Systems like 386/sx/sl/486. And now the Pentium does it. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 1 10:08:37 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:08:37 -0500 Subject: A little bit OT: an interesting POP References: <200609010358.k813wrQP012932@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <008601c6cdd8$80ba4980$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Cameron wrote.... > Username:/login:/Login: > > Not your typical POP. I know who Level 3 is, and I do have an AOL login. > It's > interesting, however -- I was just expecting 8-bit "garbage" and not an > actual > prompt. As I recall from foggy (possibly inaccurate) memory.... PPP supports "plain text" login before PPP is initiated, and also supports logging in after PPP begins "in stream". To be more precise, I recall that years ago our POPS gave login prompts. Some users client software would just start PPP immediately and authenticate in protocol, and others would actually send a typical login sequence and then start PPP. As another scenario, I also seem to recall that some of our access systems prented a logon prompt and the user entered their userid and password, they would get a protocol prompt and would be able to type in the desired protocol (slip, ppp, shell, etc.) and then ppp negotiation would begin (depending on their selection). Hence, I suspect your logon prompt is nothing unusual at all. Jay From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 10:22:11 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little bit OT: an interesting POP In-Reply-To: <008601c6cdd8$80ba4980$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Sep 1, 6 10:08:37 am" Message-ID: <200609011522.k81FMB8w018292@floodgap.com> > > Username:/login:/Login: > > > > Not your typical POP. I know who Level 3 is, and I do have an AOL login. > > It's > > interesting, however -- I was just expecting 8-bit "garbage" and not an > > actual > > prompt. > > As I recall from foggy (possibly inaccurate) memory.... PPP supports "plain > text" login before PPP is initiated, and also supports logging in after PPP > begins "in stream". To be more precise, I recall that years ago our POPS > gave login prompts. Some users client software would just start PPP > immediately and authenticate in protocol, and others would actually send a > typical login sequence and then start PPP. > > As another scenario, I also seem to recall that some of our access systems > prented a logon prompt and the user entered their userid and password, they > would get a protocol prompt and would be able to type in the desired > protocol (slip, ppp, shell, etc.) and then ppp negotiation would begin > (depending on their selection). > > Hence, I suspect your logon prompt is nothing unusual at all. That's true, I forgot about that (a long time since I've used PPP). I wonder if AOL has a special login for them and then authenticates against their own network, or if my own AOL login will work. On the other hand, I'm not interested in freaking out Level 3 :) ObCCmp: As for the 6551 carrier issue, I got it working, although I'm going to have to add a "replay" buffer to the NMI handler so that I can buffer the exact moment when carrier is dropped and thus know the exact length of the transmission. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A penny saved is stupid. --------------------------------------------------- From drb at msu.edu Fri Sep 1 10:24:13 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:24:13 -0400 Subject: A little bit OT: an interesting POP In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:08:37 CDT.) <008601c6cdd8$80ba4980$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008601c6cdd8$80ba4980$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200609010358.k813wrQP012932@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200609011524.k81FOD4J021632@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > As I recall from foggy (possibly inaccurate) memory.... PPP supports > "plain text" login before PPP is initiated, and also supports logging > in after PPP begins "in stream". To be more precise, I recall that > years ago our POPS gave login prompts. Some users client software > would just start PPP immediately and authenticate in protocol, and > others would actually send a typical login sequence and then start PPP. Annex'en support auto-determination of protocol. They simply don't say anything when you connect, and look to see what comes in the door first. If it's a few returns, you get a login prompt. If it looks like some kind of ppp packet, they go into ppp mode, and auth using pap/chap. Actually, FidoNet used to do something similar. The answering machine would emit a particular character sequence (the "EMSI whack") as part of its human-readable banner message. If the automated caller spoke the EMSI protocol, it'd see that and they'd switch into EMSI instead of using YooHoo or some other langauge. If the caller was a human, they just wondered what the hell **EMSI_5467 meant. (Yes, I know that's not quite right.) De From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Sep 1 10:27:20 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:27:20 -0500 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <44F81467.3050105@arachelian.com> References: <01C6CC8C.F10BADC0@MSE_D03> <44F65B53.3000108@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608302217220434.015AD835@10.0.0.252> <44F81467.3050105@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44F85158.5060305@mdrconsult.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Wish there was a better version where I could say (0xfffffff8 & > 10.10.66.22) and have it spit out =10.6.66.0 right next to it for > example. :-) > > Would love something like that on the unixes. For now I can use the > print command under bwbasic which someone has wisely compiled as a shell > program. "man ipcalc" Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 10:28:51 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F8217B.4080103@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Sep 1, 6 08:03:07 am" Message-ID: <200609011528.k81FSpTg004922@floodgap.com> > Actually, I'd prefer a much easier metric: if it's a computing device of > some sort, and it isn't made anymore, it should be on topic. I think this is probably the most logical of the rules that have been discussed, and covers many "neat" devices as well that wouldn't slide under the 10-year rule. I vote for this one. > This would of course allow conversations about more modern things such > as Alpha's, PowerPC based Mac's, Be and NeXT computers, but I'm not > against that, and they certainly are classics in my book. > > While it might be boring to some, I wouldn't mind some discussions of > Pentium I's and II's - there are plenty of old PC's out there that could > be put to good use. Right. I'm not a PC lover by any means, but the recent discussion on a great OS for an older PC turned up many interesting tidbits. I have some 486s around here that might benefit from that. Of course, it also means that the Power Mac G5 is on topic now, since Apple doesn't make it anymore :) but that's not a bad thing IMHO. *grins* -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "For Your Eyes Only" ------------------------------- From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 1 11:02:03 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:02:03 Subject: Question about Z80 ISA bus board In-Reply-To: <200608311532030499.0036846F@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060831180630.0f97b98c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060831180630.0f97b98c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060901110203.34f7cafe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:32 PM 8/31/06 -0700, you wrote: >>>Full length ISA card, XT card edge connection, DB 37 male connector, >>>Z80B, 8 4164's, 2 2764's, 2 Mostek MK4801AN-4's, MC1420B, 10 MHZ >>>crystal, and a handful of 74LSxxx glue chips. Only identification >>>lettering is "BETRONIX = SWEDEN=PC84" > >Have you tried plugging this one into a running PC to see if there are any >ROM signon messages displayes? Ultimately, what this thing is may well be >revealed by what's in those 2764's. > FWIW the card that I had required SW drivers and didn't show anything when you booted the PC. I was never able to find drivers so I finally dumped the card. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 1 11:11:26 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:11:26 Subject: Fluke TK80A In-Reply-To: <00c901c6cdbb$b363d300$6601a8c0@riverxp> References: <200609010549.k815mtZH007673@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060901111126.34f7fe0a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm can't be sure without checking some manuals but I believe the TK80 is a trainer/demonstrator that's used with the Fluke 9010 Troubleshooter. If you don't need it I'd like to have it. I have a bunch of 9010 stuff. Joe At 09:42 PM 9/1/06 +1000, you wrote: >Hi, > >I'm checking through some of my old stuff and I have a Fluke TK80A, which >appears to be a single board computer or training system. It has an 8080 >CPU, 1K of RAM (2114), an EPROM and a membrane keypad, some 7-seg LEDs and a >few switches. Other than the power connector it has no external connecters >or sockets - so I assume it's a standalone system. > >Some of the LEDs and switches are stamped "ADDR 10000 Output Port" and other >addresses that are over 10000 (ie 100F9)- which has me perplexed as the >address limit of the 8080 is FFFF and the IO range only goes to FF? > >I'm going to check it over and apply some power to see what it does (if >anything). However, if anyone has heard of this board or know something >about it could you please illuminate me to its purpose? > >river > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/435 - Release Date: 31/08/2006 > From wulfcub at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 11:33:59 2006 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:33:59 -0500 Subject: more found boards In-Reply-To: <200608312137.39851.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608312137.39851.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 8/31/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > The last one is also a 16-bit card. On the metal brack is a 50-pin connector > (same thing you'd see on an Adaptec 1520, 1540, etc.) and on the opposite end > is a 4-pin "drive power" (like in any PC) connector for power to apparently > be supplied_to_ the card, a small button ("tac" switch), and a 2x5 pin > shrouded connector. And across the top of the card is a big 2.4 ohm 10W (!) > power resistor, not the sort of thing I'm used to seeing on "PC" hardware. > This one's all surface mount, and the one square chip in there is marked > "Altera", not a name I'm at all familiar with. No other markings on the > board except a sticker hiding under that big resistor with a barcode and a > rather long number on it. This one came out of IBM systems (sorry, I dont recall the actual models involved here). These systems were designed to be relatively low-footprint, with the computer proper (minitower) tucked away somewhere more convenient. These cards attached a remote floppy/cd unit, as well as the kb and mouse (ps2). Pentium/Socket7, replacable VRM, upgradable L2 cache (the unit I have has ".2MB NS 32K x 64 3.3v 66MHz), odd construction. Used an AT psu, ps2 kb/mouse, riser card for all expansion slots. I had a customer with one of these systems, and they were ok for their time. When they upgraded their system, I was given the old one. Very handy design if you used the drives alot, but otherwise, it was just annoying. Best wishes. --Wulf -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 1 11:38:21 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:38:21 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F8217B.4080103@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <000b01c6cde5$09901440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> if it's a computing device of some sort, and it isn't made anymore, it should be on topic. That's preposterous. People may be sick of my favorite analogy (cars), but you're suggesting that we allow, say, discussion of a 2005 Dodge Neon onto an antique cars list simply because it's been discontinued for 2006. >>>> I wouldn't mind some discussions of Pentium I's and II's - there are plenty of old PC's out there that could be put to good use. You have lots of old Pentiums? Please take them somewhere to be recycled. Bring your 386s and 486s too. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 11:48:52 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000b01c6cde5$09901440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from Evan Koblentz at "Sep 1, 6 12:38:21 pm" Message-ID: <200609011648.k81GmqCS016634@floodgap.com> > > if it's a computing device of some sort, and it isn't made anymore, it > > should be on topic. > > That's preposterous. People may be sick of my favorite analogy (cars), but > you're suggesting that we allow, say, discussion of a 2005 Dodge Neon onto > an antique cars list simply because it's been discontinued for 2006. This would apply, say, to a G5 being brought up on this list because you can still get parts and service from Apple, and many are still under warranty. However, I don't think this would be applicable to a 604 where Apple says, "good luck, those were fun, weren't they?" Besides, the metaphor breaks down fast. A 1985 Mitsubishi wouldn't be too popular on that list either, but we talk about Commodore 128s, for example. > > I wouldn't mind some discussions of Pentium I's and II's - there are > > plenty of old PC's out there that could be put to good use. > > You have lots of old Pentiums? Please take them somewhere to be recycled. > Bring your 386s and 486s too. Evan, I'm sort of startled to hear you say this. I'm hardly a PC lover, but there *are* uses for Pentiums. And they *will* be the gateway through which a lot of people come into classic computing simply because they will be the commodity. If we all had C64s (or the 2000 equivalent) on our desks today, would you be so opposed to them, or would you take those out to the dump as well? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I am the Eye in the Sky. -- Alan Parsons ----------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 1 11:55:26 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:55:26 -0600 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000b01c6cde5$09901440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000b01c6cde5$09901440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <44F865FE.5020407@jetnet.ab.ca> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> if it's a computing device of some sort, and it isn't made anymore, it > should be on topic. > That's preposterous. People may be sick of my favorite analogy (cars), but > you're suggesting that we allow, say, discussion of a 2005 Dodge Neon onto > an antique cars list simply because it's been discontinued for 2006. The age cut off is about 1985 for most of the computers talked about on the list from my view point. The only new computer I have seen that fits my classic view-point of having a front-panel or not a consumer market computer( read PeeCees) is the SBC1620. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 12:01:46 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F865FE.5020407@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "Sep 1, 6 10:55:26 am" Message-ID: <200609011701.k81H1kbS018080@floodgap.com> > The age cut off is about 1985 for most of the computers talked about on the > list from my view point. The only new computer I have seen that fits my > classic view-point of having a front-panel or not a consumer market > computer( read PeeCees) is the SBC1620. This is exactly the problem with every *other* metric (other than Ray's) which has been proposed so far -- everyone has their hard rule, but their own "cool" exceptions. And "cool" is strictly in the eye of the beholder. (nothing personal, woodelf, the SBC1620 *is* a neat computer) Ray's metric is easy to follow, easy to verify, and entirely insulated from a subjective opinion of what constitutes cool (over which people will always be wont to squabble). It also subsumes all the other metrics proposed as the computers allowed under them also meet his metric, and while definitely it widens the discussion a little bit, I don't think it does so unrealistically. The objections seem to overwhelmingly be, "well, I don't want this list to be a discussion of pissant PC issues." True, and anyone coming here trying to get Win98 to run on a Core Duo might get some opposition. But we do get that level of question here, just on more obscure systems. I find big iron conceptually interesting, but not to the point of others, and I usually delete mail about it after glancing at it. Some of those questions are at the same technical level, but those of us who aren't into those systems certainly aren't complaining about it. If someone has a 486DX2 they want to run QNX on, why is this such a pain to have around? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 1 12:07:19 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:07:19 -0600 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609011648.k81GmqCS016634@floodgap.com> References: <200609011648.k81GmqCS016634@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44F868C7.9010405@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > If we all had C64s (or the 2000 equivalent) on our desks today, would you be > so opposed to them, or would you take those out to the dump as well? Dump it!!! I started with a CoCo! Used a Pee-cee at work and at home now for games and used a PDP-8 and a IBM 1130 in collage about 1980. Still thanks to on-line stuff I get to learn more about *classic* computers. PS. I like C64's but as a games console. From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 1 12:14:24 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:14:24 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609011701.k81H1kbS018080@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <001e01c6cdea$13040630$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> This is exactly the problem with every *other* metric (other than Ray's) which has been proposed so far -- everyone has their hard rule, but their own "cool" exceptions. And "cool" is strictly in the eye of the beholder. >>>> Ray's metric is easy to follow, easy to verify, and entirely insulated from a subjective opinion of what constitutes cool >>>> The objections seem to overwhelmingly be, "well, I don't want this list to be a discussion of pissant PC issues." True, and anyone coming here trying to get Win98 to run on a Core Duo might get some opposition. But we do get that level of question here, just on more obscure systems. I find big iron conceptually interesting, but not to the point of others, and I usually delete mail about it after glancing at it. Some of those questions are at the same technical level, but those of us who aren't into those systems certainly aren't complaining about it. If someone has a 486DX2 they want to run QNX on, why is this such a pain to have around? You're right, but what good is an "easy" rule if it's also totally inaccurate? This all started (this time at least) with Choctaw Bob's comments*: >>> I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD,<<< We didn't really mind his comments too much because he did talk about CPM, GEM, GEOS, etc. .... But he began by asking "I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic" to which I took a little bit of exception ... I didn't see a Pentium with a 4GB hard drive as on-topic no matter what OS it runs. So my point is, that's an example where it DID become "a discussion of pissant PC issues" and many people here seemed to * encourage * it by joining the discussion rather than saying, "whoa, Pentium, get outta here buddy." - Evan K * (Nothing against Choctaw, and hey, as I noted in my original reply to his message, this IS the on- and OFF-topic list so it's acceptable.) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 1 13:21:05 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:21:05 +0000 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609011528.k81FSpTg004922@floodgap.com> References: <200609011528.k81FSpTg004922@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44F87A11.2080607@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Actually, I'd prefer a much easier metric: if it's a computing device of >> some sort, and it isn't made anymore, it should be on topic. > > I think this is probably the most logical of the rules that have been > discussed, and covers many "neat" devices as well that wouldn't slide under > the 10-year rule. I vote for this one. Of course when Dell go under in the near future and stop making PCs, it'd make them on-topic... :-) Personally I vote for common sense - it means (pulling numbers out of the air for a moment :-) that 95% of posts are *definitely* on-topic, and the other 5% come down to what the original author thinks is 'cool' or not. I think that's a great signal to noise ratio, given that the notion of 'cool' for any particular system will likely be shared by a fair proportion of the list members. cheers J. (the other one!) -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Sep 1 12:20:19 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:20:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) In-Reply-To: <200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> No, transputers are 16 or 32 bit RISC chips, some with 64 bit IEEE >> floating point either in hardware or emulated via microcoded instructions. >> >> Their best features are: 4 async 2-pair 5, 10 or 20MHz full duplex >> communication links on die, a minimal ammount of RAM on die, and the >> ability to be booted and debugged over any of the 4 links. Thus, you can >> build a parallel "computing surface" with just the transputer chips plus >> power and clock sources. They also have a fairly flexible RAM/ROM >> interface, but it's entirely optional. Finally, the whole family is >> machine language compatible (later members only extended the instruction >> set). In theory this let you mix family members in a machine, but >> unfortunately there was no "what family member am I running on" >> instruction. > > Which makes me wonder what would happen if you fed it an extended instruction > that it didn't know how to deal with. I don't know, but finding out is one of the first things on my list of things to do once I build some boards to plug mine into and find or make a transputer link interface (anyone got a C012 they wouldn't mind selling?). My wild-ass guess is they halt and wait for you to assert the reset or analyze pins. What I really want to do is write a bug-compatible emulator for them, so people could play with transputers without having to spend hundreds of dollars and hours :-) Alexey From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 1 13:24:02 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:24:02 +0000 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: <001b01c6cd4c$530b35d0$3201a8c0@hal> References: <001b01c6cd4c$530b35d0$3201a8c0@hal> Message-ID: <44F87AC2.9020000@yahoo.co.uk> David Hunt wrote: > I have a pile of old "Micro Users" 1983-1996 (BBC Micro - UK) that I am > trying to scan, sometime in 1984 they changed to a spine format. I was about to say: "don't bother, someone's already doing that". Then I realised it was you. *wanders off grumbling at overlap between subscribers of different lists* ;-) From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 1 12:24:06 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 13:24:06 -0400 Subject: A little bit OT: an interesting POP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:08:37 CDT." <008601c6cdd8$80ba4980$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200609011724.k81HO6sg010363@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >Cameron wrote.... >> Username:/login:/Login: >> >> Not your typical POP. I know who Level 3 is, and I do have an AOL login. >> It's >> interesting, however -- I was just expecting 8-bit "garbage" and not an >> actual >> prompt. > >As I recall from foggy (possibly inaccurate) memory.... PPP supports "plain >text" login before PPP is initiated, and also supports logging in after PPP I'm coming in midstream here, so sorry if I'm on the wrong thread. Most terminal servers will recognize a PPP frame when presented at the login prompt. And most pops contains terminal servers. In general you can drive through the login prompt or use one of PPP's authentication protocols. In general ISP's don't configure them to allow access to any internal shell. They usually just do authentication using RADIUS and then start up a PPP session. back in the day I did some work for ahem, a large company which sold big terminal servers to a large company which subcontracted pops to another large company. At that time AOL didn't use PPP. We ended up tunneling their protocol inside a tcp session back to their servers. We certainly supported PPP (and multicast) but the end customer (AOL) had 'special needs' and a huge customer base. The box I worked on had 2000 modems in it. Most of isp style terminal servers will handle various flavors of audio modems as well as v.56 and ISDN. And even voip in some cases (or maybe lots these days). In the back it's all IP traffic. Ascend was one big player. Cisco came in late. I worked for a company which was bought by Nortel which came in the middle. -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 1 13:30:04 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:30:04 +0000 Subject: List Join (was: A tree to grow) In-Reply-To: <200608311944.k7VJiw6x002497@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608311944.k7VJiw6x002497@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44F87C2C.9020005@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I don't realy see where the reasoning is do do this, except >> to eliminate CC-Talk. After all, the hard disagreement with >> a governed CC-Talk was the original reaon for creating CC-Tech. > > I believe the reason is that each message to CC-Tech has to be manually > approved. That alone seems like a reason to remerge the two to me. What are the other reasons, though? I'm sure they've been discussed in the past on here, I just don't recall them :-) In theory the idea of two lists seems like a really good one to me - both groups (those who like the social side, and those who don't) can be kept happy. The only problem seems to be he workload for moderators, which I can appreciate must be large. (Well, there's the occasional user who cross-posts to both lists when they shouldn't, but they seem to be educated by other list members fairly quickly) So, other than the workload, what are the other disadvantages (I think what I'm getting at is: if the moderation workload could be reduced somehow, would it make sense to keep both lists?) cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 12:29:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:29:38 -0700 Subject: more found boards In-Reply-To: References: <200608312137.39851.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609011029380373.0447FE89@10.0.0.252> On 9/1/2006 at 11:33 AM Wulf daMan wrote: > Pentium/Socket7, replacable VRM, upgradable L2 cache (the unit I >have has ".2MB NS 32K x 64 3.3v 66MHz), odd construction. Used an AT >psu, ps2 kb/mouse, riser card for all expansion slots. *SHRIEK!* You can't say "P*nt*um" on this list! What's the matter with you? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 12:34:03 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <001e01c6cdea$13040630$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from Evan Koblentz at "Sep 1, 6 01:14:24 pm" Message-ID: <200609011734.k81HY3QG018576@floodgap.com> > > This is exactly the problem with every *other* metric (other than > > Ray's) which has been proposed so far -- everyone has their hard rule, but > > their own "cool" exceptions. And "cool" is strictly in the eye of the > > beholder. > > Ray's metric is easy to follow, easy to verify, and entirely insulated > > from a subjective opinion of what constitutes cool[.] > You're right, but what good is an "easy" rule if it's also totally > inaccurate? > > This all started (this time at least) with Choctaw Bob's comments*: > > > I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 > > MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, But this isn't so much a problem with the rule per se -- it's an issue of enforcement. Prior to this, there were people who observed the 10-year rule, those who did not, those who observed the 10-year-rule-plus-cool-exceptions-they-made, those who had their own metrics entirely divorced from the 10 year rule, self-avowed anarchists and etc. And because "on topic" had a very nebulous definition, people could make cases for their particular brand of topic transgression or just ignore complaints about what they brought up. A rule like Ray's is mega-enforceable because it's purely objective. Despite adding more stuff into the fold, it also makes the wall around the fold much more obvious and easy to shore up. Best of all, it makes off-topic proveable without any subjective analysis. > * (Nothing against Choctaw, and hey, as I noted in my original reply to his > message, this IS the on- and OFF-topic list so it's acceptable.) Yes, that's so. With Jay merging the two, however, I think that makes a topicality discussion that much more acute and that brings me to *another* good point about Ray's metric: it scales up. Orphaned systems and architectures are automatically brought into the fold. Whether people like it or not, classic computing is going to widen as a topic field. It's inevitable. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Today is a great day for making firm decisions. Or is it? --------- From RMeenaks at olf.com Fri Sep 1 12:45:12 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:45:12 -0400 Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org><200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net><200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532643@cpexchange.olf.com> ________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Alexey Toptygin Sent: Fri 9/1/2006 1:20 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> unfortunately there was no "what family member am I running on" >> instruction. > That is not entirely true. There are instructions that gives it back on later versions of the transputer. Can't remember off the top of my head right now though.... Ram From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 1 12:50:57 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:50:57 -0400 Subject: OCR software Message-ID: <89b4fc78c0133dd517ec7c615ec7a47e@neurotica.com> This isn't strictly on-topic, but I believe it's important to many people here. I just learned about this on another list. HP developed an OCR engine called Tesseract that is supposed to be pretty good. They released it to the open-source world, and Google has picked it up and started working on it. The code itself is available via SourceForge. Here is the announcement: http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2006/08/announcing-tesseract- ocr.html With all the document preservation activities going on these days, in our circles as well as others, this may be a significant development. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Sep 1 13:00:46 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:00:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532643@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org><200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net><200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net> <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532643@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> unfortunately there was no "what family member am I running on" >> instruction. > > That is not entirely true. There are instructions that gives it back on > later versions of the transputer. Can't remember off the top of my head > right now though.... Really? I've read my copy of "Transputer Instruction Set: A Compiler Writer's Guide" cover to cover, and I don't recall such an instruction. I think there's one that lets you load the address of the bottom of on-chip RAM, but that won't distinguish the other features... Alexey From RMeenaks at olf.com Fri Sep 1 13:03:50 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:03:50 -0400 Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org><200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net><200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net><9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532643@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532644@cpexchange.olf.com> Its undocumented... Ram ________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Alexey Toptygin Sent: Fri 9/1/2006 2:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> unfortunately there was no "what family member am I running on" >> instruction. > > That is not entirely true. There are instructions that gives it back on > later versions of the transputer. Can't remember off the top of my head > right now though.... Really? I've read my copy of "Transputer Instruction Set: A Compiler Writer's Guide" cover to cover, and I don't recall such an instruction. I think there's one that lets you load the address of the bottom of on-chip RAM, but that won't distinguish the other features... Alexey From RMeenaks at olf.com Fri Sep 1 13:11:03 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:11:03 -0400 Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org><200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net><200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net><9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532643@cpexchange.olf.com> <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532644@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532645@cpexchange.olf.com> Its lddevid. Look at the startup code (bootstrap) in the C compiler and/or OCCAM compiler to see how it is used... ________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Ram Meenakshisundaram Sent: Fri 9/1/2006 2:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) Its undocumented... Ram ________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Alexey Toptygin Sent: Fri 9/1/2006 2:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> unfortunately there was no "what family member am I running on" >> instruction. > > That is not entirely true. There are instructions that gives it back on > later versions of the transputer. Can't remember off the top of my head > right now though.... Really? I've read my copy of "Transputer Instruction Set: A Compiler Writer's Guide" cover to cover, and I don't recall such an instruction. I think there's one that lets you load the address of the bottom of on-chip RAM, but that won't distinguish the other features... Alexey From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 13:28:27 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:28:27 -0400 Subject: more found boards In-Reply-To: References: <200608312137.39851.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44F87BCB.6080504@gmail.com> Wulf daMan wrote: > On 8/31/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> The last one is also a 16-bit card. On the metal brack is a 50-pin >> connector >> (same thing you'd see on an Adaptec 1520, 1540, etc.) and on the >> opposite end >> is a 4-pin "drive power" (like in any PC) connector for power to >> apparently >> be supplied_to_ the card, a small button ("tac" switch), and a 2x5 pin >> shrouded connector. And across the top of the card is a big 2.4 ohm >> 10W (!) >> power resistor, not the sort of thing I'm used to seeing on "PC" >> hardware. >> This one's all surface mount, and the one square chip in there is marked >> "Altera", not a name I'm at all familiar with. No other markings on the >> board except a sticker hiding under that big resistor with a barcode >> and a >> rather long number on it. > > This one came out of IBM systems (sorry, I dont recall the actual > models involved here). These systems were designed to be relatively > low-footprint, with the computer proper (minitower) tucked away > somewhere more convenient. These cards attached a remote floppy/cd > unit, as well as the kb and mouse (ps2). > Pentium/Socket7, replacable VRM, upgradable L2 cache (the unit I > have has ".2MB NS 32K x 64 3.3v 66MHz), odd construction. Used an AT > psu, ps2 kb/mouse, riser card for all expansion slots. > I had a customer with one of these systems, and they were ok for > their time. When they upgraded their system, I was given the old one. > Very handy design if you used the drives alot, but otherwise, it was > just annoying. I know that system. It was one of the Craptivas. The floppy and CD-ROM were in a popup panel coming out of a remote module. Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 1 13:45:17 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:45:17 -0700 Subject: OCR software Message-ID: > HP developed an OCR engine called Tesseract that is supposed to be > pretty good. They released it to the open-source world, and Google has > picked it up and started working on it. classiccmp list member James Markevitch has been working on an OCR program as well, optimized for column formated input, like listings. I was just talking to Doron Swade (the person responsible for the Difference Engine at the British Science Museum) and he is interested in OCR of mathematical tables (also column-oriented like listings). From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 14:01:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:01:54 -0700 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) Message-ID: <200609011201540669.049C787A@10.0.0.252> I have a power transformer that I scavenged out of a 15-year old UPS, so it's probably pretty close to being on-topic. At any rate, I want to use this transformer in a DC power supply. I have three sets of windings: two sets are 120/240v "universal" series/parallel type and the third is 24-0-24v center-tapped. I want to run this from 120vac. Is there any benefit to paralleling the two sets of 120/240v main windings (i.e. 4 120v windings in parallel)? Will it increase the power rating of the unit or is that mostly a function of the secondary winding? Suppose instead of 24-0-24 on the secondary, I'd like 12-0-12. Obviously, one way to get this is to hook the primary (-ies) up as 240v. Is there any benefit to be gained in parallelling the two 240v primaries? Thanks, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 1 15:05:52 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 20:05:52 +0000 Subject: OCR software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F892A0.5030802@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: >> HP developed an OCR engine called Tesseract that is supposed to be >> pretty good. They released it to the open-source world, and Google has >> picked it up and started working on it. > > classiccmp list member James Markevitch has been working on an OCR program > as well, optimized for column formated input, like listings. Cross-platform, or one specific OS? I started putting some stuff together to allow a user to graphically describe a scanned page (so you'd roughly mark out what were images, what were columns of text etc.) prior to feeding to an OCR engine, as experience of commercial products has been that they tend to get it wrong too much to be left to run without user input. Unfortunately the Linux OCR engines available proved to be just too poor in quality to make it worthwhile, so I shelved it until something better came along - maybe Tesseract will do the job. > I was just talking to Doron Swade (the person responsible for the Difference > Engine at the British Science Museum) and he is interested in OCR of > mathematical tables (also column-oriented like listings). I've never actually met Doron, although his name tends to crop up an awful lot. I think he's possibly up at our museum next Friday, but I'll be on a plane at that point... cheers Jules From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Sep 1 14:10:08 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:10:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532645@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org><200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net><200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net><9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532643@cpexchange.olf.com> <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532644@cpexchange.olf.com> <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532645@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> Really? I've read my copy of "Transputer Instruction Set: A Compiler >> Writer's Guide" cover to cover, and I don't recall such an instruction. >> I think there's one that lets you load the address of the bottom of >> on-chip RAM, but that won't distinguish the other features... > > Its undocumented... > Its lddevid. Look at the startup code (bootstrap) in the C compiler > and/or OCCAM compiler to see how it is used... I hope there aren't a lot of undocumented instructions. You'd think the instruction set reference would tell you about the instructions used by the vendor's own compiler... When you say C Compiler and OCCAM compiler, do you mean the "SGS-Thomson Transputer ANSI C Toolset" and "SGS-Thomson Transputer Occam 2.1 Toolset" you've got product info for on your page? I don't have either of those (or any others for that matter), could I get a copy from you? BTW, your mailer seems to add an extra copy of cctalk@ to the To: field every time you reply. Alexey From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 1 14:14:12 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:14:12 -0700 Subject: OCR software Message-ID: > I've never actually met Doron, although his name tends to crop up an awful > lot. I think he's possibly up at our museum next Friday He's in California right now, spending some time with us at CHM. Very nice guy, who is excited about my work in software preservation. From RMeenaks at olf.com Fri Sep 1 14:15:06 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:15:06 -0400 Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org><200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net><200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net><9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532643@cpexchange.olf.com><9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532644@cpexchange.olf.com><9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532645@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532646@cpexchange.olf.com> I really shouldn't be doing this, but if you go to http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/software, you can find tons of goodies including the aforementioned compilers. ST just really doesn't care about it though... There are some other instruction sets that are out there, but I cant think of them at the moment. That's strange, but thanks for pointing it out... Cheers, Ram ________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Alexey Toptygin Sent: Fri 9/1/2006 3:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> Really? I've read my copy of "Transputer Instruction Set: A Compiler >> Writer's Guide" cover to cover, and I don't recall such an instruction. >> I think there's one that lets you load the address of the bottom of >> on-chip RAM, but that won't distinguish the other features... > > Its undocumented... > Its lddevid. Look at the startup code (bootstrap) in the C compiler > and/or OCCAM compiler to see how it is used... I hope there aren't a lot of undocumented instructions. You'd think the instruction set reference would tell you about the instructions used by the vendor's own compiler... When you say C Compiler and OCCAM compiler, do you mean the "SGS-Thomson Transputer ANSI C Toolset" and "SGS-Thomson Transputer Occam 2.1 Toolset" you've got product info for on your page? I don't have either of those (or any others for that matter), could I get a copy from you? BTW, your mailer seems to add an extra copy of cctalk@ to the To: field every time you reply. Alexey From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 1 15:24:53 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 20:24:53 +0000 Subject: OCR software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F89715.6030904@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: >> I've never actually met Doron, although his name tends to crop up an awful >> lot. I think he's possibly up at our museum next Friday > > He's in California right now, spending some time with us at CHM. > Very nice guy, who is excited about my work in software preservation. Hmm, that does ring a bell now that you mention it - isn't he there for a year or so? (or maybe that's someone else who's out there "on loan" :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 1 14:39:40 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OCR software In-Reply-To: <89b4fc78c0133dd517ec7c615ec7a47e@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 01, 2006 01:50:57 PM Message-ID: <200609011939.k81Jdfuo029740@onyx.spiritone.com> > This isn't strictly on-topic, but I believe it's important to many > people here. I just learned about this on another list. > > HP developed an OCR engine called Tesseract that is supposed to be > pretty good. They released it to the open-source world, and Google has > picked it up and started working on it. The code itself is available > via SourceForge. Here is the announcement: > > http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2006/08/announcing-tesseract- > ocr.html > > With all the document preservation activities going on these days, in > our circles as well as others, this may be a significant development. Does anyone on this list know any of the HP people that were involved in getting this Open Sourced? Could this possibly herald a new found willingness on HP's part to be more Hobbyist Friendly with regards to Legacy OS's? I know, I'm probably just dreaming :^( Zane From RMeenaks at olf.com Fri Sep 1 14:41:42 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:41:42 -0400 Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org><200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net><200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net><9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532643@cpexchange.olf.com><9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532644@cpexchange.olf.com><9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532645@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532647@cpexchange.olf.com> BTW, Did you pick up the AVX "SuperComputer"? Cheers, Ram From spc at conman.org Fri Sep 1 12:37:30 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:37:30 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609011648.k81GmqCS016634@floodgap.com> References: <000b01c6cde5$09901440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200609011648.k81GmqCS016634@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Cameron Kaiser once stated: > > > if it's a computing device of some sort, and it isn't made anymore, it > > > should be on topic. > > > > That's preposterous. People may be sick of my favorite analogy (cars), but > > you're suggesting that we allow, say, discussion of a 2005 Dodge Neon onto > > an antique cars list simply because it's been discontinued for 2006. > > This would apply, say, to a G5 being brought up on this list because you can > still get parts and service from Apple, and many are still under warranty. > However, I don't think this would be applicable to a 604 where Apple says, > "good luck, those were fun, weren't they?" > > Besides, the metaphor breaks down fast. A 1985 Mitsubishi wouldn't be too > popular on that list either, but we talk about Commodore 128s, for example. So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still off topic." -spc (I would think that would cover most of the complaints) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 15:16:39 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> from Sean Conner at "Sep 1, 6 01:37:30 pm" Message-ID: <200609012016.k81KGdOP018504@floodgap.com> > > This would apply, say, to a G5 being brought up on this list because you can > > still get parts and service from Apple, and many are still under warranty. > > However, I don't think this would be applicable to a 604 where Apple says, > > "good luck, those were fun, weren't they?" > > > > Besides, the metaphor breaks down fast. A 1985 Mitsubishi wouldn't be too > > popular on that list either, but we talk about Commodore 128s, for example. > > So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made > anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if > the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still > off topic." That would still exclude many 386s, for one. Even 2K could theoretically run on a P133, although that would be clinical evidence of masochism, I think. XP wants a 233MHz Pentium-type CPU minimum. I think that would be a more reasonable cutoff, if we want a particular Windows version to be the cutoff. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Payne ---------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 1 15:19:09 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:19:09 -0600 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <000b01c6cde5$09901440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200609011648.k81GmqCS016634@floodgap.com> <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44F895BD.4040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean Conner wrote: > So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made > anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if > the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still > off topic." We better make phones & music off topic too. > -spc (I would think that would cover most of the complaints) Tag Line: Real COMPUTERS have WHEELS. :) From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 1 15:17:44 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:17:44 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <002201c6ce03$af0fa660$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still off topic." >>>> -spc (I would think that would cover most of the complaints) Perfect! It shall be known as Conner's Law and supplants the 10-year-rule. Oops, that is for Jay to say. But I like it. :) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 15:25:43 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609012016.k81KGdOP018504@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Sep 1, 6 01:16:39 pm" Message-ID: <200609012025.k81KPhLq018094@floodgap.com> > > So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made > > anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if > > the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still > > off topic." > > That would still exclude many 386s, for one. Even 2K could theoretically run > on a P133, although that would be clinical evidence of masochism, I think. > > XP wants a 233MHz Pentium-type CPU minimum. I think that would be a more > reasonable cutoff, if we want a particular Windows version to be the cutoff. Hit send too fast, there was one other thing I wanted to add: commercial support is a pretty wide term. Even a IIgs is still "supported" by Apple insofar as there are tech notes and downloadable software still up on the website for it, despite the fact that their service department would get a good chuckle if you ever dropped by asking for a new motherboard. And there are still companies making hardware for the Commodore 64 in small quantities, which is still "commercial support" of a sort. I think using a Windows-based boundary will be firmer and less ambiguous. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Now and then innocent people are sent to the legislature. ------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 1 15:25:47 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:25:47 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F895BD.4040800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000b01c6cde5$09901440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200609011648.k81GmqCS016634@floodgap.com> <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F895BD.4040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 1, 2006, at 4:19 PM, woodelf wrote: > Tag Line: Real COMPUTERS have WHEELS. :) I like it!! -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 15:28:38 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:28:38 -0400 Subject: x86 Embedded (was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: <44F868B8.21638.5E032ECA@localhost> References: <200609011419.k81EJiOo014789@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <44F868B8.21638.5E032ECA@localhost> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0609011328p8f53db9l3c1278997a04e0f7@mail.gmail.com> On 9/1/06, Hans Franke wrote: > > Am 1 Sep 2006 15:19 meinte Peter Turnbull: > > early 80s, moved into embedded in the late 80s, where 186 systems > where still big the late 90s ... to be replaced by 32 Bit Systems > like 386/sx/sl/486. Doesn't the space shuttle use a system of radiation -hardened 486's? As I understand it, there are eleven independent systems, and they all must agree on the outcome of a particular operation for it to go through. If one is giving a different output than the others, it is taken offline. "I've just picked up a fault in the AE35 unit. It's going to go 100% failure in 72 hours." Heh. From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 15:34:28 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:34:28 -0400 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609011201540669.049C787A@10.0.0.252> References: <200609011201540669.049C787A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Obviously paralleling gives you lower primary winding resistance thus lower lose/heating. vax, 9000 On 9/1/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a power transformer that I scavenged out of a 15-year old UPS, so > it's probably pretty close to being on-topic. > > At any rate, I want to use this transformer in a DC power supply. I have > three sets of windings: two sets are 120/240v "universal" series/parallel > type and the third is 24-0-24v center-tapped. > > I want to run this from 120vac. > > Is there any benefit to paralleling the two sets of 120/240v main windings > (i.e. 4 120v windings in parallel)? Will it increase the power rating of > the unit or is that mostly a function of the secondary winding? > > Suppose instead of 24-0-24 on the secondary, I'd like 12-0-12. Obviously, > one way to get this is to hook the primary (-ies) up as 240v. Is there any > benefit to be gained in parallelling the two 240v primaries? > > Thanks, > Chuck > > > > From spc at conman.org Fri Sep 1 13:11:56 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:11:56 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609012025.k81KPhLq018094@floodgap.com> References: <200609012016.k81KGdOP018504@floodgap.com> <200609012025.k81KPhLq018094@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060901181156.GE2105@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Cameron Kaiser once stated: > > > So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made > > > anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if > > > the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still > > > off topic." > > > > That would still exclude many 386s, for one. Even 2K could theoretically run > > on a P133, although that would be clinical evidence of masochism, I think. I said "capable," not "theoretically possible." 8-P > > XP wants a 233MHz Pentium-type CPU minimum. I think that would be a more > > reasonable cutoff, if we want a particular Windows version to be the cutoff. > > Hit send too fast, there was one other thing I wanted to add: commercial > support is a pretty wide term. Even a IIgs is still "supported" by Apple > insofar as there are tech notes and downloadable software still up on the > website for it, despite the fact that their service department would get a > good chuckle if you ever dropped by asking for a new motherboard. And there > are still companies making hardware for the Commodore 64 in small quantities, > which is still "commercial support" of a sort. I waivered a bit about adding a year-based clause to the commercial support ("... nor is there any commercial support to be had for it, or it's older than 10-15 years old") but thought simpler would be better. But on the other hand, do the tech notes and software cost anything to download? > I think using a Windows-based boundary will be firmer and less ambiguous. I agree, and that seems to be the most contentious part of this whole definition of a "classic computer." -spc From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 15:46:28 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901181156.GE2105@linus.groomlake.area51> from Sean Conner at "Sep 1, 6 02:11:56 pm" Message-ID: <200609012046.k81KkSgv015096@floodgap.com> > I said "capable," not "theoretically possible." 8-P Oh, I know :) but it's nice to have a page you can point to. XP, for example, http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/upgrading/sysreqs.mspx Piece of cake. Not much argument there about what would fall on which side of the line. > > I think using a Windows-based boundary will be firmer and less ambiguous. > > I agree, and that seems to be the most contentious part of this whole > definition of a "classic computer." So do I. I could live with a Windows-based boundary as long as it was carefully considered. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, Windows is not a virus. Viruses actually do something. ----------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 15:52:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 13:52:17 -0700 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: References: <200609011201540669.049C787A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609011352170333.050185BF@10.0.0.252> On 9/1/2006 at 4:34 PM 9000 VAX wrote: >Obviously paralleling gives you lower primary winding resistance thus >lower lose/heating. Sure, but am I likely to run into problems with core saturation? From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 1 15:52:43 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:52:43 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901181156.GE2105@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <002601c6ce08$92af2590$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> I think using a Windows-based boundary will be firmer and less ambiguous. >>>> I agree, and that seems to be the most contentious part of this whole definition of a "classic computer." Speaking of which, that gave me an idea .... How about we in the anti-10-year camp compromise by adding this clause to the definition of what's classic: "IF it's post-1981 (when IBM launched the PC), THEN it must have been unique when it was new." That way you include all the first-of-breed stuff (i.e., the PS/2), you include all the exceptions to the mainstream (i.e., the iMac), and you exclude all the same old PC crap. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 16:00:21 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <002601c6ce08$92af2590$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from Evan Koblentz at "Sep 1, 6 04:52:43 pm" Message-ID: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> > > > I think using a Windows-based boundary will be firmer and less > > > ambiguous. > > I agree, and that seems to be the most contentious part of this whole > > definition of a "classic computer." > > Speaking of which, that gave me an idea .... How about we in the > anti-10-year camp compromise by adding this clause to the definition of > what's classic: "IF it's post-1981 (when IBM launched the PC), THEN it must > have been unique when it was new." That way you include all the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > first-of-breed stuff (i.e., the PS/2), you include all the exceptions to the > mainstream (i.e., the iMac), and you exclude all the same old PC crap. But what does 'unique' mean? Different CPU? Different case? Different architecture? And how much difference constitutes 'different'? I think something like this has the same drawbacks as the 'coolness' exemption. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If the dictionary misspells a word, how would you know? -- Steven Wright --- From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Sep 1 16:27:13 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:27:13 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <000b01c6cde5$09901440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200609011648.k81GmqCS016634@floodgap.com> <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <20060901212713.B9808BA4176@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Sean Conner wrote: > So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made > anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if > the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still > off topic." I would like to add the caveat that if, say, someone is using a hyper-super modern number-crunching x86 PC to do DSP-stuff for the express purpose of doing data recovery from DECtapes or 7-track magtape from 40 years ago, that IS INTERESTING and probably on-topic. Not so much for exactly what the modern computer is, but more for what it does and how it gives a window into the old media. OTOH everybody's favorite hardware engine for SIMH or Charon-11 and how they've modded it with neon lights is probably NOT interesting (unless they're Nixies!) Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 16:35:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:35:54 -0700 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> On 9/1/2006 at 2:00 PM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >But what does 'unique' mean? Different CPU? Different case? Different >architecture? And how much difference constitutes 'different'? It means that when we talk about VAXen, we shall speak only of the 11/780. My gosh, Windows was around ages ago in a real-mode version to compete with IBM Topview. What I can't remember is if Windows 1.0 would run on an 8088 or if it required a 286. Why disqualify anything that can run Windows, but include things that will run Gem? I cast my vote for being very flexible without rigidly defining what's "classic". "I know it when I see it." --Justice Potter Stewart Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 1 16:54:50 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:54:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) Message-ID: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrot e: > > Yeah, but it's often hidden. > > Not by default. > If it has been hidden, it is because somebody > explicitly and deliberately > was trying to keep you away from it. > Without user intervention Win2K installations will > have it in accessories. > I had another search for "calculator" today to find out what directory it was stored in. In the same directory I also found a Paint program and one other program, which I can understand why they would hide them from us. But we work in a lab and do calculations on a *daily* basis. Most of them are done by the computers (special program made by Scibertec), but some calc's we do manually. >> snip << > > > Now whenever I need it and it's not listed > > under applications (we move about alot in the > > lab and use diff computers each week), I just > > do a quick filesearch, dump it on the desktop > > and on the main drop-up (?) menu that appears > > when you click on the Start button, incase > > I have a screen full of windows. > > Now almost everyone uses it (largely because > > calc's are so hard to find in the lab). > WHY BOTHER?? > Go to Start/Run and type Calc. Didn't know you could do that. > or > Go to the command line, and type Calc. > Not sure we have permission [1] to go into the CLI mode, and perhaps we might get suspicious looks if we did. > > The "scientific" mode includes binary, octal, > > hex and decimal, aswell as proper maths > > functions. > > Yes, but it refuses to do anything but integers in > anything other than > decimal! > > 3.0h/2.0h gives 1.8h, NOT 1.0 > 11 binary/10 binary is 1.1 binary, NOT 1 > 3.14159decimal is NOT 3h. > No offense intended, but are you sure it's not set up for no decimal places, or perhaps it's just MS's programmers being lazy? :) I have never seen a hex number with a decimal point anyway... do they exist and/or serve a purpose, or was it just a demonstrate your point? [1] We don't have permission to alter the computers time, as it's part of a very large network. Certain drives (eg. drive M: ) are also locked away (not even displayed on "My Computer"). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 1 16:43:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060901143830.Q39116@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My gosh, Windows was around ages ago in a real-mode version to compete with > IBM Topview. What I can't remember is if Windows 1.0 would run on an 8088 > or if it required a 286. 3.10 was the first Windoze to require more than an 8088. 3.10 even required a token amount of extended memory! > Why disqualify anything that can run Windows, but > include things that will run Gem? There are a FEW machines that run "non-intel" Windoze NT that are interesting. > I cast my vote for being very flexible without rigidly defining what's > "classic". > "I know it when I see it." --Justice Potter Stewart It has to be flexible. Nobody can come up with a rigid definition that doesn't have exceptions. For any rigid definition, somebody can come up with an example of a machine excluded unreasonably, and a machine included that shouldn't have been. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 1 16:46:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901212713.B9808BA4176@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Sep 01, 2006 05:27:13 PM Message-ID: <200609012146.k81LkGeF000354@onyx.spiritone.com> > OTOH everybody's favorite hardware engine for SIMH or Charon-11 > and how they've modded it with neon lights is probably NOT interesting > (unless they're Nixies!) > > Tim. > Or something like the front panel for KLH10 from Spare Time Gizmos :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 1 16:49:29 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 01, 2006 02:35:54 PM Message-ID: <200609012149.k81LnUcB000417@onyx.spiritone.com> > My gosh, Windows was around ages ago in a real-mode version to compete with > IBM Topview. What I can't remember is if Windows 1.0 would run on an 8088 > or if it required a 286. Why disqualify anything that can run Windows, but > include things that will run Gem? I just happen to have a sealed box of Windows 1.03 sitting here. Minimum System Requirments: 320k memory DOS 2.0 or higher two double-sided disk drives graphics adapter card Recommended System Requirements: 512k memory one double sided disk drive and a hard disk Zane From jim.isbell at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 16:51:24 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901143830.Q39116@shell.lmi.net> References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> <20060901143830.Q39116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Off a bit to the side, would discussion of wire wrap techniques and equipment be off topic? Some the first computers I worked on were wire wrapped together or "plugged" together with short lengths of colored wire with sockets on the ends that fit pins on the boards and I still have some of the wire wrap tools to do the job....but I dont use them anymore. On 9/1/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > My gosh, Windows was around ages ago in a real-mode version to compete with > > IBM Topview. What I can't remember is if Windows 1.0 would run on an 8088 > > or if it required a 286. > > 3.10 was the first Windoze to require more than an 8088. > 3.10 even required a token amount of extended memory! > > > Why disqualify anything that can run Windows, but > > include things that will run Gem? > > There are a FEW machines that run "non-intel" Windoze NT that are > interesting. > > > I cast my vote for being very flexible without rigidly defining what's > > "classic". > > "I know it when I see it." --Justice Potter Stewart > > It has to be flexible. Nobody can come up with a rigid definition that > doesn't have exceptions. For any rigid definition, somebody can come up > with an example of a machine excluded unreasonably, and a machine included > that shouldn't have been. > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 1 17:10:35 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20060901145001.N39116@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Go to Start/Run and type Calc. > Didn't know you could do that. Yep. If they won't let you play solitaire at work, goto Start/Run and type SOL (IT admin often removes the games from the Start menu, but fails to remove the program from the machine.) Did they leave Pinball on the machines? (space,Z, and ?) > Not sure we have permission [1] to go into the > CLI mode, and perhaps we might get suspicious > looks if we did. If they've tried to hide it, goto Star/Run and type CMD > > > The "scientific" mode includes binary, octal, > > > hex and decimal, aswell as proper maths > > > functions. > > Yes, but it refuses to do anything but integers in > > anything other than decimal! > No offense intended, but are you sure it's not > set up for no decimal places, or perhaps > it's just MS's programmers being lazy? :) LAZY. It has non-integer math support for decimal, but they left it off of the other bases. > I have never seen a hex number with a > decimal point anyway... do they exist and/or > serve a purpose, or was it just a demonstrate > your point? The fanatical purists will insist that it is NOT a "decimal point", it is a "Hexadecimal point" ("sexadecimal" if not yielding to IBM's blue-nosed attitudes), "octal point", or "binary point". Vitally important when using floating point, or any other "rational" or "real" numbers. For example, in hex, the first digit to the right of the "PERIOD" is 1/16 (.0625), etc. In binary, the digits to the right of the period are .5, .25, .125, .0625, etc. As quick exercises, 1) what is the binary fraction for PI? 2) what is the IEEE 32 bit floating point bit pattern for PI? Although, it IS true that you will, and should, use integers whenever feasable! 3) Who is attributed with "God created the integers, all else is the work of man"? > [1] We don't have permission to alter the > computers time, as it's part of a very large > network. > Certain drives (eg. drive M: ) are also locked > away (not even displayed on "My Computer"). There are ways around those limitations, if you have a good reason to do them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Sep 1 17:37:06 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:37:06 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609012146.k81LkGeF000354@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609012146.k81LkGeF000354@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060901223706.90BD7BA4134@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > OTOH everybody's favorite hardware engine for SIMH or Charon-11 > > and how they've modded it with neon lights is probably NOT interesting > > (unless they're Nixies!) > > > > Tim. > > > > Or something like the front panel for KLH10 from Spare Time Gizmos :^) Actually that's more of a peripheral than a CPU or system. And a little bit of a pet peeve of mine on most 10-year rules: they talk about systems or CPU's and ignore that peripherals are of GREAT interest, especially when the peripheral is useful on multiple platforms. There are some peripherals (e.g. open reel tape drives, paper tape, punched cards) which span and bridge multiple generations (even multiple decades) of CPU's. Often I find the peripherals (and how to hook old peripherals to modern systems) to be of VASTLY greater personal interest. Because that's how you get to the media! Tim. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 17:57:27 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <20060901145001.N39116@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Sep 1, 6 03:10:35 pm" Message-ID: <200609012257.k81MvRJr004950@floodgap.com> > 3) Who is attributed with "God created the integers, all else is the work > of man"? Oh, that's Kronecker, isn't it? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- de Gaultier --- From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 1 18:02:40 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609012257.k81MvRJr004950@floodgap.com> References: <200609012257.k81MvRJr004950@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060901160101.Q39116@shell.lmi.net> > > 3) Who is attributed with "God created the integers, all else is the work > > of man"? On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Oh, that's Kronecker, isn't it? yes, of course From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 1 18:10:28 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:10:28 -0600 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <20060901160101.Q39116@shell.lmi.net> References: <200609012257.k81MvRJr004950@floodgap.com> <20060901160101.Q39116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44F8BDE4.2050204@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>3) Who is attributed with "God created the integers, all else is the work >>>of man"? > > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>Oh, that's Kronecker, isn't it? > > > yes, of course > Umm God created Fingers and thumbs ... the rest is the work of Man. Woodelf. From spc at conman.org Fri Sep 1 15:40:45 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:40:45 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060901204045.GA2743@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 9/1/2006 at 2:00 PM Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >But what does 'unique' mean? Different CPU? Different case? Different > >architecture? And how much difference constitutes 'different'? > > It means that when we talk about VAXen, we shall speak only of the 11/780. > > My gosh, Windows was around ages ago in a real-mode version to compete with > IBM Topview. What I can't remember is if Windows 1.0 would run on an 8088 > or if it required a 286. Why disqualify anything that can run Windows, but > include things that will run Gem? I think I said "Windows 95 or better," which means Windows 1.0, 2.x and 3.x are (should be?) on topic. -spc (So there 8-P From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 1 18:17:19 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:17:19 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> <20060901204045.GA2743@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <001401c6ce1c$c5bb2420$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Conner" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 4:40 PM Subject: Re: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system > > I think I said "Windows 95 or better," which means Windows 1.0, 2.x and > 3.x are (should be?) on topic. > > -spc (So there 8-P I think Win 3.x is much different then anything after it, might as well be another OS. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 18:22:34 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 19:22:34 -0400 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <44F8BDE4.2050204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200609012257.k81MvRJr004950@floodgap.com> <20060901160101.Q39116@shell.lmi.net> <44F8BDE4.2050204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44F8C0BA.2030109@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> 3) Who is attributed with "God created the integers, all else is the >>>> work >>>> of man"? >> >> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>> Oh, that's Kronecker, isn't it? >> >> >> yes, of course >> > Umm God created Fingers and thumbs ... the rest is the work of Man. Man invented beer. God invented weed. Whom do you trust? 8-) Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 1 18:24:01 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <001401c6ce1c$c5bb2420$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> <20060901204045.GA2743@linus.groomlake.area51> <001401c6ce1c$c5bb2420$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <20060901162154.A39116@shell.lmi.net> > > I think I said "Windows 95 or better," which means Windows 1.0, 2.x and > > 3.x are (should be?) on topic. On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > I think Win 3.x is much different then anything after it, might as well be > another OS. Those differentiations are very subjective. To me, Win95 is just Windoze 4.00 OTOH, I consider NT to be significantly different. From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Sep 1 18:33:54 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:33:54 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 37, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: <200609012034.k81KYBXS022187@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609012034.k81KYBXS022187@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 15:34 -0500 9/1/06, Evan wrote: > >>>> So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made >anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if >the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still >off topic." > >>>>> -spc (I would think that would cover most of the complaints) > >Perfect! It shall be known as Conner's Law and supplants the 10-year-rule. > >Oops, that is for Jay to say. But I like it. :) As the new owner (well, I'm actually over 40, but you know what I mean :-) ) of a CoCo3, and being in possession of the Cloud-9 Website URL http://www.cloud9tech.com/ I'm not so sure I like this proposal. Granted, Cloud-9 is not fulfilling orders at the moment, but previously and in the future (I hope!) they sold systems, repairs, upgrades, and software for the Tandy Color Computer. Likewise, for my NeXT, there are http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/Black/ and http://www.blackholeinc.com/ At the very least, I propose the modification, "...nor is there any commercial support *other than third-party* to be had for it..." (satisfied customer of all of the above, no other relation) -- - Mark Cell Phone: 210-379-4635 office: 210-522-6025 From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Sep 1 18:35:14 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:35:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <44F8C0BA.2030109@gmail.com> References: <200609012257.k81MvRJr004950@floodgap.com> <20060901160101.Q39116@shell.lmi.net> <44F8BDE4.2050204@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F8C0BA.2030109@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > woodelf wrote: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> 3) Who is attributed with "God created the integers, all else is the >>>>> work >>>>> of man"? >>> >>> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> >>>> Oh, that's Kronecker, isn't it? >>> >>> yes, of course >>> >> Umm God created Fingers and thumbs ... the rest is the work of Man. > > Man invented beer. God invented weed. Whom do you trust? > > 8-) The front of the US dollar features George Washington (a hemp grower) and the back says "In God We Trust" 8-) Alexey Now _this_ is an off-topic post. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 18:37:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:37:55 -0700 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901204045.GA2743@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> <20060901204045.GA2743@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200609011637550655.05992A0F@10.0.0.252> On 9/1/2006 at 4:40 PM Sean Conner wrote: > I think I said "Windows 95 or better," which means Windows 1.0, 2.x and >3.x are (should be?) on topic. How about WFWG 3.11? :) Personally, I don't see that much internal difference between Win95 and WFWG with Win32s installed. Sure, the desktop looks different, and there are some passing nods to plug-n-pray, but under the skin, they're more similar than they're different. OTOH, NT 3.1 is very different and precedes 95, but still holds much in common with XP. And Warp precedes 95 and is still supported. This software stuff is giving me a headache. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 1 18:41:34 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:41:34 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> <20060901204045.GA2743@linus.groomlake.area51> <001401c6ce1c$c5bb2420$0b01a8c0@game> <20060901162154.A39116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002501c6ce20$28fc5a60$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system > > > I think I said "Windows 95 or better," which means Windows 1.0, 2.x and > > > 3.x are (should be?) on topic. > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I think Win 3.x is much different then anything after it, might as well be > > another OS. > > Those differentiations are very subjective. > To me, Win95 is just Windoze 4.00 > > OTOH, I consider NT to be significantly different. > > Depends if you are talking about look and feel or just the kernel/driver/GUI model. Either way Windows 95 is quite a bit different then Windows 3.x or anything before it. From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 1 18:45:55 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:45:55 -0500 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: <44F7CD8E.22AEB343@rain.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060901184252.0c0fee18@localhost> I haven't found a way to drive nixies from more modern equipment yet, not one that I understand, anyhow. Especially the Burroughs 7971 "British Flag" one. I thought of building a character generator using a PAL, but I really haven't decided what I want to do wit them yet. Maybe create an "On the air" sign with my callsign, alternating with a clock display. -T At 11:05 PM 8/31/2006 -0700, you wrote: > > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > > I wouldn't mind getting some nixies to play with at some point, but > it's not > > a real high priority item on my list. I did have one assembly that I > picked > >I've found that nixies are not very hard to find; just check out older test >equipment. I picked three pieces of test equipment a couple of weeks ago for >basically nothing, each of which was working and used nixies for the displays. [Business] "Meetings are an addictive, highly self-indulgent activity that corporations and other organizations habitually engage in only because they cannot actually masturbate." --Dave Barry --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Sep 1 18:48:04 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 19:48:04 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901162154.A39116@shell.lmi.net> References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> <20060901204045.GA2743@linus.groomlake.area51> <001401c6ce1c$c5bb2420$0b01a8c0@game> <20060901162154.A39116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060901234804.23ADDBA4164@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I think I said "Windows 95 or better," which means Windows 1.0, 2.x and > > > 3.x are (should be?) on topic. > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I think Win 3.x is much different then anything after it, might as well be > > another OS. > > Those differentiations are very subjective. > To me, Win95 is just Windoze 4.00 > > OTOH, I consider NT to be significantly different. And I consider all such discussions (different MS-Windows versions) to be of zero interest to me. I will occasionally boot up into some variant of MS-DOS to run some disk imaging tools (e.g. teledisk, 22disk, others) Time between such boots is measured in years! All this shouldn't necessarily influence others, because I have gotten VERY good at getting a glazed look on my face when they start talking about MS-DOS or MS-Windows or MS-anything after their original (and somewhat portable) BASIC. All of this is a flashback to the days of the early/mid 80's when all of a sudden Dr. Dobbs' stopped having interesting articles and all the articles were about MS-DOS and TSR's and other things I never even wanted to know about ever! Not then, and not today 20 something years later! Tim. From bob at jfcl.com Fri Sep 1 18:56:30 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:56:30 -0700 Subject: DEC SC008 Star Coupler for trade Message-ID: <000401c6ce22$3f23f990$0401010a@GIZMO> I've got a DEC SC008 star coupler, complete with rack, doors, and everything that I'm never going to use. There's no way I'm going to ship it (it's a complete short corporate rack, after all!) so anybody who wants it would have to live within driving distance of Milpitas CA. I'd really like to trade it for an H967 "short" traditional rack. Note that the 967 is neither the taller H960 traditional rack, nor is it the shorter new "corporate" style rack - the 967 is about 50" tall (with casters) and holds 24U. I'd be happy with just the bare rack; I don't need doors or side panels. H967s aren't that common, though, so it's a long shot that I'll find one. Let me know if you're interested in the SC008, even if you don't have one. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 1 19:07:27 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:07:27 -0500 Subject: age cutoff Message-ID: <016e01c6ce23$c844ff20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm not entirely sure of the best way to phrase it. But for what it's worth, I personally think the cutoff for OS's should be win95, exclusive. In other words, win95, 98, 98SE, NT, 2000, and XP are off-topic. However, Windows up to 3.x, and Windows for workgroups are on-topic. You really must separate hardware from software. The above is my feelings for software. For hardware, I think 386 and 486 architecture is on-topic. Pentium 4 certainly isn't on-topic. But what about P1,2,3? I don't know. If the discussion is just the hardware, I certianly don't think there's a problem with talk of P1 and 2 anyways. Unfortunately, the above comes across as being windows bigoted. It most certainly isn't. My criteria is more what I posted on the list a year ago. It's kinda like... when I tell non-computer people what kind of computers I'm interested in. I usually tell them "systems with blinking lights" because that's the EASY way to say it. In fact, it has nothing to do with blinking lights. It just so happens that most of the systems I want HAPPEN (unrelated) to have blinking lights. So, the above looks like I'm anti-windows, that's not the case. But it is the outward result of other criteria. Which is also why I don't favor a specific list of systems/environments. I'd rather "teach a man to fish", than give him a list of what varieties of fish there are. So I'd rather come up with a rule that can be applied by anyone to get a reasonable determination. That may be impossible, I'm open to ideas. One list thing.... as a note about my future thoughts - I firmly believe that whatever the final "rule" is, it will eventually have to be changed. Again, that's why I don't like a "hardware list". What is off-topic today may well be on-topic tomorrow. So the rule will have to be changed in the future, OR, it will have to be defined in such a way that its application is sound for future systems. Please take the above as just my own personal thoughts, and not some edict from the list admin :) Jay From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 1 19:09:23 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:09:23 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system References: <200609012100.k81L0Lpk013224@floodgap.com> <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> <20060901204045.GA2743@linus.groomlake.area51> <001401c6ce1c$c5bb2420$0b01a8c0@game> <20060901162154.A39116@shell.lmi.net> <20060901234804.23ADDBA4164@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <003c01c6ce24$0c144f80$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Shoppa" To: Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 7:48 PM Subject: Re: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system > Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > > I think I said "Windows 95 or better," which means Windows 1.0, 2.x and > > > > 3.x are (should be?) on topic. > > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > I think Win 3.x is much different then anything after it, might as well be > > > another OS. > > > > Those differentiations are very subjective. > > To me, Win95 is just Windoze 4.00 > > > > OTOH, I consider NT to be significantly different. > > And I consider all such discussions (different MS-Windows versions) to > be of zero interest to me. > > I will occasionally boot up into some variant of MS-DOS to run > some disk imaging tools (e.g. teledisk, 22disk, others) Time between > such boots is measured in years! > > All this shouldn't necessarily influence others, because I have > gotten VERY good at getting a glazed look on my face when they start > talking about MS-DOS or MS-Windows or MS-anything after their > original (and somewhat portable) BASIC. > > All of this is a flashback to the days of the early/mid 80's when all > of a sudden Dr. Dobbs' stopped having interesting articles and > all the articles were about MS-DOS and TSR's and other things I > never even wanted to know about ever! Not then, and not today 20 > something years later! > > Tim. To be truthful I don't get into the OS much at all (any of them). I view the OS as just the interface between my machine, its hardware, and the software I want to use. I have no love for init strings, memory managers, and stuff like that for DOS, but since I love quite a few games from the DOS era (and like to use original hardware instead of emulating) I put up with it (and since I lived through it in the 80's I am used to it anyway). The same goes for classic Mac OS for 68K machines plus Amiga OS and everything else. Sure some OS were better then others of their era for different tasks, they are ok to explore but that gets boring fast to me unless I need them to get something done. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 1 18:17:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:17:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: <002501c6cd63$81fd5f00$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Aug 31, 6 08:11:01 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote.... > > To be honest, I didn't much care for the 10 year rule, > > In that case, I sure would have appreciated more input from you when the > definition was being discussed. Was there any reason you didn't provide some > help to come up with something better than the 10 year rule if you didn't > care that much for it? Help from you would have been awesome! But I am glad > to hear that yet another person finds the 10 year rule problematic. Oh for %deity's sake.... There are 2 reasons why I didn't suggest an alternative 1) As I've said at least twice, the original thread didn't 'register' with me. Rememebr I'm one of the people who didn't even realise the 10 year rule was no more. 2) Even if I don't much care for something, it doesn't mean I can necessarily come up with something better (for example, I don't much care for Windwos, I don't think I could write a replacement). > > > I am seriously considering unsubscribing over this. Not because of the > > noise on the list. Not because I have any particular love of the > > 10-year-rule (or any other date-related rule). But because I now have no > > idea what this list is actually supposed to be talking about. And there > > seems little point in remaining on such a list. > > So your reason for unsubbing would be because you don't understand what this > list is talking about? Sure, there's some argument about the finer details I've had far too many problems in my life caused by ambiguous definitions, criteria, and so on. Maybe it comes from spending too much time working with devices that do have precisely-defined rules, but I will admit to liking such rules. That's not to say I don't also enjoy finding obscure borderline cases :-) More seriously, you may think you know what a classic computer is. I may think I know what one is. And most of the time we'll agree. But I am woried about an almighty flamefest when you say something is off-topic (as is your right as list owner), the poster insists the machine _is_ a classic, and various members take sides. With no clear definition of classic, that 'discussion' could run and run. > and probably the definition needs tweaking. But I seriously doubt that > people (and you) honestly don't know what this list is about. I'm sure I and Oh, I know plenty of machines that _I_ think are classies. I think most list members would agree with me in every case. But that's a far cry from having a definition of classic computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 1 18:20:27 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:20:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608311821160558.00D170D2@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 31, 6 06:21:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/1/2006 at 12:39 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: [HP16C, presumably] > > >Let me know if you ever need to repair it. I've got more information that > >I can't easily post to the list. > > About the only thing I'd like to repair on it are a couple of dents in the > aluminum display bezel. It must be glued on, because I can see that one It is. (and the logo is a separate part, also glued on). Pulling it off generally puts nasty creases in it. > corner of mine is starting to lift away. If I could get the bezel off > without destroying it, I could at least burnish the dents out and re-attach > it. To be honest, while I love my old HP calculators (including the 16C), I also use them. I don't keep them in a glass case, I keep them on the bench, on my desk, and so on. Most of my machines have little 'dings' in them, and it doesn't worry me a bit. > Otherwise, my 16C has been "old reliable"--and one of the few calculators > that has no problem handing the full product of 2 64-bit numbers. Try that > on your TI Programmer. There's another good reason for using an HP over just about anything else... It's called RPN (although not all HPs were RPN, an example of their first infix-notation calculators is going on my bench in the next few months).. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 1 18:31:11 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:31:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: from "Billy Pettit" at Aug 31, 6 06:41:45 pm Message-ID: > Billy: This brings up a question I had for the group. In the early = > '60's, > hex was not very popular. And it hadn't become a standard to use A-F. = > I > worked on one hex machine that used lower case i,j,k,l,m,n and another = > that > used upper case U, V, W, X, Y, and Z. > > Does anyone remember using any other notations? There must have been = > many > more. On an ASCII machine, J..O was not unhead-of (for the reason that if you take the low number of the character you get the appropriate binary value). Philips P850-series 'binary' puper tapes were, in fact punched with 4 chaacters to store a word. The top 4 bits of each character were ignored, the bottom 4 were taken as the nybble value. So 0..9 and J..O was one set of characters that could be used for this. > I took a C class many years back where the instructor started out with = > the > statement that all computers use word sizes that are multiples of 8 = > bits. I That's news to me (and news to many machines I have around here). > couldn't help laughing. After class, I explained to her why and = > described > the G-15, RPC-4000, etc. I feel a little that way now on the discussion = > of > octal - how soon we forget. > > I want to mention to Tony that I've worked on computers for 40+ years = > that > were multiples of 3. And at one time, they were the biggest and the = Sure. I was a little over-strong with my statement. There were plenty of 3n bit machines, I suspect many list members have one (a PDP8, for example). OK, most _modern-ish_ machines have a word length that's a multiple of 4 bits. That's why hex is more popular than octal now, I guess. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 1 18:59:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:59:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Sep 1, 6 05:20:19 pm Message-ID: > > Which makes me wonder what would happen if you fed it an extended instruction > > that it didn't know how to deal with. > > I don't know, but finding out is one of the first things on my list of > things to do once I build some boards to plug mine into and find or make a > transputer link interface (anyone got a C012 they wouldn't mind selling?). Are ISA transputer boards (B004, etc) that hard to find now? Some of the first Inmos transputer boards, like the ones in my ITEM, have external ROMs on the transputer bus along with a serial chip. You don't need a link adapter in the host, just an RS232 port. Of course the 4 transputer links are brought off-board to hang other transputers off. > My wild-ass guess is they halt and wait for you to assert the reset or Assert Error? > analyze pins. What I really want to do is write a bug-compatible emulator > for them, so people could play with transputers without having to spend > hundreds of dollars and hours :-) Considering it took me a morning to go from 'open the Transputer Databook' to 'Having a handwired bootable machine', I think 'hundreds of hours is a little pesimistic. And are they really that hard to find or expenssive that you have to spend hundreds of dollars to get one? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 1 18:36:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:36:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 31, 6 09:57:36 pm Message-ID: > Seven segment displays are also ergonomic disasters - the military > found it is far easier to read a seven segment display incorrectly > than just about every other method. Does anyone else remmeber the 8 and 9 segment displays used by (IIRC) Sharp in the early 1970s. They were vacuum flourescnet, single digit to an envelope, made by Itron (IIRC). The segments were curved, and you got much more natural-looking digits than from a 7 segment straight-bar display. Of course the problem that 2 rapidly alternating digits can look like something totally different remains. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 1 19:04:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:04:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609011201540669.049C787A@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 1, 6 12:01:54 pm Message-ID: > At any rate, I want to use this transformer in a DC power supply. I have > three sets of windings: two sets are 120/240v "universal" series/parallel > type and the third is 24-0-24v center-tapped. > > I want to run this from 120vac. > > Is there any benefit to paralleling the two sets of 120/240v main windings > (i.e. 4 120v windings in parallel)? Will it increase the power rating of > the unit or is that mostly a function of the secondary winding? In a lot of cases, the limiting factor is the primary winding (often when a transformer burns out it's the primary the fails). So yes, I would paralelle up both sets of windings. Is there a reason not to? > > Suppose instead of 24-0-24 on the secondary, I'd like 12-0-12. Obviously, > one way to get this is to hook the primary (-ies) up as 240v. Is there any > benefit to be gained in parallelling the two 240v primaries? Again, is there a reason no to? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 1 19:10:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:10:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901212713.B9808BA4176@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Sep 1, 6 05:27:13 pm Message-ID: > I would like to add the caveat that if, say, someone is using a > hyper-super modern number-crunching x86 PC to do DSP-stuff > for the express purpose of doing data recovery from DECtapes > or 7-track magtape from 40 years ago, that IS INTERESTING and > probably on-topic. Not so much for exactly what the modern > computer is, but more for what it does and how it gives a window > into the old media. I would agree (and I seem to remember similar 'exemptions' under the 10 year rule). The idea of using a modern comptuer as a tool to help with preservation of old software/data seems 100% on-topic. As would be using such a machine as, say, a mass storage device for an old computer (so we can talk about TU58 emulators here, even if they run on modern PCs). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 1 19:12:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:12:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609011435540046.052972C5@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 1, 6 02:35:54 pm Message-ID: > My gosh, Windows was around ages ago in a real-mode version to compete with > IBM Topview. What I can't remember is if Windows 1.0 would run on an 8088 > or if it required a 286. Why disqualify anything that can run Windows, but It would run on an 8088. I actually have a set of original disks and manuals for a modified (by MS, I guess) Windows 1.x to run on the HP150 (certainly an 8088 machine, and probably a 'classic'). From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 1 19:21:08 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:21:08 -0500 Subject: commodore 64/128 question Message-ID: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was an avid C64 user, ran a C64 bbs for years, etc. etc. But when I got rid of it years ago, one never made it back in to my collection as I focus more on mini's than micros'. I find myself wanting to acquire a C64 for my collection and gaming fun, as that was the system I had. However, as I understand it, the C128 has a C64 emulation mode which allows it to run C64 software. I never had a C128 and don't know anything about it. So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a C64, will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like a 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality to play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then I'd best just stick with getting a C64. Advice? Jay From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Sep 1 19:29:17 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:29:17 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c6ce26$d3a01280$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> What pisses me off is when stuff like 120v mains hotdog cookers get mentioned in one topic and it turns into its own. Everyone on this list should know better than to turn that into a thread. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 6:17 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: A tree to grow > > > > > Tony wrote.... > > > To be honest, I didn't much care for the 10 year rule, > > > > In that case, I sure would have appreciated more input from > you when > > the definition was being discussed. Was there any reason you didn't > > provide some help to come up with something better than the 10 year > > rule if you didn't care that much for it? Help from you would have > > been awesome! But I am glad to hear that yet another person > finds the 10 year rule problematic. > > Oh for %deity's sake.... There are 2 reasons why I didn't > suggest an alternative > > 1) As I've said at least twice, the original thread didn't 'register' > with me. Rememebr I'm one of the people who didn't even > realise the 10 year rule was no more. > > 2) Even if I don't much care for something, it doesn't mean I > can necessarily come up with something better (for example, I > don't much care for Windwos, I don't think I could write a > replacement). > > > > > > > I am seriously considering unsubscribing over this. Not > because of > > > the noise on the list. Not because I have any particular > love of the > > > 10-year-rule (or any other date-related rule). But because I now > > > have no idea what this list is actually supposed to be talking > > > about. And there seems little point in remaining on such a list. > > > > So your reason for unsubbing would be because you don't understand > > what this list is talking about? Sure, there's some > argument about the > > finer details > > I've had far too many problems in my life caused by ambiguous > definitions, criteria, and so on. Maybe it comes from > spending too much time working with devices that do have > precisely-defined rules, but I will admit to liking such > rules. That's not to say I don't also enjoy finding obscure > borderline cases :-) > > More seriously, you may think you know what a classic > computer is. I may think I know what one is. And most of the > time we'll agree. But I am woried about an almighty flamefest > when you say something is off-topic (as is your right as list > owner), the poster insists the machine _is_ a classic, and > various members take sides. With no clear definition of > classic, that 'discussion' could run and run. > > > > and probably the definition needs tweaking. But I seriously > doubt that > > people (and you) honestly don't know what this list is > about. I'm sure > > I and > > Oh, I know plenty of machines that _I_ think are classies. I > think most list members would agree with me in every case. > But that's a far cry from having a definition of classic computer. > > -tony > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 19:34:39 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: age cutoff In-Reply-To: <016e01c6ce23$c844ff20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Sep 1, 6 07:07:27 pm" Message-ID: <200609020034.k820YdBW009768@floodgap.com> > I'm not entirely sure of the best way to phrase it. But for what it's worth, > I personally think the cutoff for OS's should be win95, exclusive. > In other words, win95, 98, 98SE, NT, 2000, and XP are off-topic. However, > Windows up to 3.x, and Windows for workgroups are on-topic. > You really must separate hardware from software. The above is my feelings > for software. For hardware, I think 386 and 486 architecture is on-topic. > Pentium 4 certainly isn't on-topic. But what about P1,2,3? I don't know. If > the discussion is just the hardware, I certianly don't think there's a > problem with talk of P1 and 2 anyways. I'm fine with this. I think it captures the spirit of what most people (including me) were trying to get at. Not that you need my blessing ;) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't anthropomorphise computers. They hate that. -- Gregory McNear -------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 19:46:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:46:01 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609011746010351.05D78174@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 12:36 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Does anyone else remmeber the 8 and 9 segment displays used by (IIRC) >Sharp in the early 1970s. They were vacuum flourescnet, single digit to >an envelope, made by Itron (IIRC). The segments were curved, and you got >much more natural-looking digits than from a 7 segment straight-bar >display. Of course the problem that 2 rapidly alternating digits can look >like something totally different remains. I still have a Sharp calculator that uses those. The "6" looks too weird to me to be readable. Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Sep 1 19:49:57 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:49:57 -0500 Subject: Is this classiccmp? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c6ce29$b69c37b0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> So here's an oddball question: I've seen some backplane based 8088-80486 PC machines available on the web, and they are newly produced, not NOS. Are those classiccmp? I can't remember where on the web I saw this but they weren't real expensive either, and they had a webstore and everything where you could buy the stuff. It was about a year ago when I was searching for parts for my 5155. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 19:50:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:50:34 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609011750340006.05DBAA76@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 12:31 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >OK, most _modern-ish_ machines have a word length that's a multiple of 4 >bits. That's why hex is more popular than octal now, I guess. I've always thought that 12-bit characters were eminently practical. Enough for many non-European alphabets--lots of elbow room. Of course, that means that word length is not a power of 2, but then there have been plenty of 12, 24, 36, 48 and 60 bit word length machines. Trivia quiz: What piece of hardware (not IBM) for the 5150 and 5160 (i.e. it was contemporary and 8 bit ISA) actually used 12-bit characters? Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 19:55:27 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Sep 1, 6 07:21:08 pm" Message-ID: <200609020055.k820tRO9016074@floodgap.com> > I was an avid C64 user, ran a C64 bbs for years, etc. etc. But when I got > rid of it years ago, one never made it back in to my collection as I focus > more on mini's than micros'. > > I find myself wanting to acquire a C64 for my collection and gaming fun, as > that was the system I had. However, as I understand it, the C128 has a C64 > emulation mode which allows it to run C64 software. I never had a C128 and > don't know anything about it. > > So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a C64, > will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like a > 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality to > play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then I'd best > just stick with getting a C64. The C128 will run 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of C64 software. The compatibility is just about total. The only thing that will get you into trouble is badly written programs that overshoot the VIC-II registers. On the 64, that's unmapped space and nothing happens. On the 128, some of these control the extra VIC-IIe registers including 2MHz mode (so a frequent bug is to accidentally hit $d030 and kick the machine into 2MHz mode, which fouls 40-columns). I think I can count on one hand the programs which do that, and most of them are games. Plus, 128 mode is very nice. Some people complain about "128 compatibility" when what they're really observing is glitchiness between 64 fastloaders written for the 1541 trying to run on a 1571. EA games were notorious for that; I kept a 1541 around specifically for that purpose. Booted from a 1541, the 128 ran it fine. The only other disadvantage is that the 128 is kind of wasteful, space-wise. It may be low slung, but it will take up most of a desk. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I may have invented CtrlAltDel, but Microsoft made it popular. -- D. Bradley From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 1 19:56:56 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:56:56 -0500 Subject: Is this classiccmp? References: <000101c6ce29$b69c37b0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <004801c6ce2a$b03a0ae0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Julian wrote.... > So here's an oddball question: I've seen some backplane based 8088-80486 > PC > machines Are those classiccmp? yes From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 1 20:06:16 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:06:16 -0500 Subject: commodore 64/128 question References: <200609020055.k820tRO9016074@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <005301c6ce2b$fe0f29c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Cameron wrote.... > Some people complain about "128 compatibility" when what they're really > observing is glitchiness between 64 fastloaders written for the 1541 > trying > to run on a 1571. EA games were notorious for that; I kept a 1541 around > specifically for that purpose. Booted from a 1541, the 128 ran it fine. Thanks a ton for all the good info! I think I recall a lot of software was specific to the 1541 drive with regards to copy protection. Will this software typically run on a 1571, and will the 1541 run on the 128 along with a 1571? > The only other disadvantage is that the 128 is kind of wasteful, > space-wise. > It may be low slung, but it will take up most of a desk. Really? I thought it was shorter than the C64, and only a few inches deeper? Jay From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 20:14:49 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <005301c6ce2b$fe0f29c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Sep 1, 6 08:06:16 pm" Message-ID: <200609020114.k821EnZY013710@floodgap.com> > > Some people complain about "128 compatibility" when what they're really > > observing is glitchiness between 64 fastloaders written for the 1541 > > trying to run on a 1571. EA games were notorious for that; I kept a 1541 > > around specifically for that purpose. Booted from a 1541, the 128 ran it > > fine. > Thanks a ton for all the good info! I think I recall a lot of software was > specific to the 1541 drive with regards to copy protection. Will this > software typically run on a 1571, and will the 1541 run on the 128 along > with a 1571? This was a minority of titles, and I think later versions of the 1571 ROM corrected many of these problems. Even on the earlier revisions, most games and loaders ran without comment, and anything after 1985 is virtually guaranteed to be tested on both. > > The only other disadvantage is that the 128 is kind of wasteful, > > space-wise. It may be low slung, but it will take up most of a desk. > Really? I thought it was shorter than the C64, and only a few inches deeper? Its height is smaller, but it's over double the footprint, give or take. Mind you, if someone offered me a 64 or a 128, I would choose the 128, if that helps you make up your mind. I don't have a C64 on my desk; I have a 128DCR, and I run all of my 64 software on it, plus all the added features of being a 128 (true 80-column 640x400 graphics with a CGA monitor; fast serial transfers; 16-64K of additional VRAM which can be accessed from 64 mode as "cache"; and 2MHz mode). Really, the 128 is a very worthy successor to the 64. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Watch out, Citizens. Marx's tomb is a communist plot. ---------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 20:20:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:20:42 -0700 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609011820420477.05F74272@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 1:04 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Again, is there a reason no to? Just wondering if I would run afoul of core saturation. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 1 20:21:11 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Sep 01, 2006 07:21:08 PM Message-ID: <200609020121.k821LBim004722@onyx.spiritone.com> > I was an avid C64 user, ran a C64 bbs for years, etc. etc. But when I got > rid of it years ago, one never made it back in to my collection as I focus > more on mini's than micros'. > > I find myself wanting to acquire a C64 for my collection and gaming fun, as > that was the system I had. However, as I understand it, the C128 has a C64 > emulation mode which allows it to run C64 software. I never had a C128 and > don't know anything about it. > > So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a C64, > will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like a > 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality to > play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then I'd best > just stick with getting a C64. > > Advice? My personal advice, get a C64, or maybe a C64c, skip the C128. I'm saying this not because I have anything against the C128, but because it will be different from what you remember. Plus as has been pointed out, it does take up more desktop space. My "fondness" for the VIC-20 has been replaced with a "fondness" for the C64 (a machine I hated when I was using the VIC-20, which was through mid-1986). I really want to setup my one nice C64 system, I mean I *REALLY* want to set it up. Unfortunatly I don't have the space, and truth be told, the time. I also really want to setup an Apple // of some sort, most likely a //gs, but there is the same problem. I need to find a really good excuse to set up one or the other, and so far I haven't found one. Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 1 20:22:14 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:22:14 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question References: <200609020055.k820tRO9016074@floodgap.com> <005301c6ce2b$fe0f29c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <006f01c6ce2e$3946b330$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 9:06 PM Subject: Re: commodore 64/128 question > Cameron wrote.... > > Some people complain about "128 compatibility" when what they're really > > observing is glitchiness between 64 fastloaders written for the 1541 > > trying > > to run on a 1571. EA games were notorious for that; I kept a 1541 around > > specifically for that purpose. Booted from a 1541, the 128 ran it fine. > Thanks a ton for all the good info! I think I recall a lot of software was > specific to the 1541 drive with regards to copy protection. Will this > software typically run on a 1571, and will the 1541 run on the 128 along > with a 1571? > > > The only other disadvantage is that the 128 is kind of wasteful, > > space-wise. > > It may be low slung, but it will take up most of a desk. > Really? I thought it was shorter than the C64, and only a few inches deeper? > > Jay The C128 is much wider and deeper (depending on if you are comparing it to the brown C64 or the later wedge C64C). I use mine as a glorified C64 most of the time (have it connected to a 1084 Monitor with a cable for 80 column mode as well as 40 column mode. The C128 has a z80 for CPM also if that does anything for you. Most of my C64 games are cracked images and they seem to work fine in the 1571. The C128 video out can look worse then the C64 because of the video chip (some people complain about lines on the screen), and I do not know which SID version the 128 uses (if that is a factor to you). From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 1 20:24:41 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:24:41 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question References: <200609020114.k821EnZY013710@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <007801c6ce2e$9103f150$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 9:14 PM Subject: Re: commodore 64/128 question > Mind you, if someone offered me a 64 or a 128, I would choose the 128, if > that helps you make up your mind. I don't have a C64 on my desk; I have a > 128DCR, and I run all of my 64 software on it, plus all the added features > of being a 128 (true 80-column 640x400 graphics with a CGA monitor; fast > serial transfers; 16-64K of additional VRAM which can be accessed from 64 > mode as "cache"; and 2MHz mode). Really, the 128 is a very worthy successor > to the 64. How much effort is the VRAM hack? What is involved? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 20:41:02 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <007801c6ce2e$9103f150$0b01a8c0@game> from Teo Zenios at "Sep 1, 6 09:24:41 pm" Message-ID: <200609020141.k821f2li013216@floodgap.com> > > Mind you, if someone offered me a 64 or a 128, I would choose the 128, if > > that helps you make up your mind. I don't have a C64 on my desk; I have a > > 128DCR, and I run all of my 64 software on it, plus all the added features > > of being a 128 (true 80-column 640x400 graphics with a CGA monitor; fast > > serial transfers; 16-64K of additional VRAM which can be accessed from 64 > > mode as "cache"; and 2MHz mode). Really, the 128 is a very worthy > > successor to the 64. > > How much effort is the VRAM hack? What is involved? It's fairly easy. The VDC registers still show up in 64 mode due to an incomplete mapping in the MMU, so you initialize the chip as if you were going through the 128 startup sequence, and then just store values into its RAM. I say that it's best used as "cache" because it's pretty slow access; the VRAM of the VDC is not memory mapped and must be accessed byte-by-byte through the registers (like the 9918). Still, this can be a nice amount of space to stash something for later rather than loading it from disk, and you're guaranteed to have at least 16K on every 128 (64K on DCRs and upgraded units). In HyperLink 2.5, http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/hl/ I use VDC RAM to cache downloaded web pages. It works quite well. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Po-Ching Lives! ------------------------------------------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 1 20:46:50 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <006f01c6ce2e$3946b330$0b01a8c0@game> from Teo Zenios at "Sep 1, 6 09:22:14 pm" Message-ID: <200609020146.k821koAI013574@floodgap.com> > The C128 video out can look worse then the C64 because of the video chip > (some people complain about lines on the screen), and I do not know which > SID version the 128 uses (if that is a factor to you). Most flat 128s and the European 128Ds use the 6581. There are a few flat "128CRs" that use the 8580, and the DCR always uses the 8580. For that matter, the later 128s have the 8568 VDC instead of the 8563. This is mostly irrelevant for software, but hackers can get an EGA signal out of an 8568 (this is really, really slow, though -- it's not very useful). Also, the 8568 is not pin-compatible. The DCR and upgraded "128CR" have 64K of VRAM; the rest have 16K. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I may be underpaid, but I underwork just to make it even. ------------------ From bear at typewritten.org Fri Sep 1 21:43:26 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:43:26 -0700 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed In-Reply-To: <200608312058.k7VKwLSk009240@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608312058.k7VKwLSk009240@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <55F632CB-50ED-450D-B783-1C8D307EFD9E@typewritten.org> On Aug 31, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so > it's > not very interesting. I think you'd find there to be more than a few folks on this list who would find it quite interesting, myself included. ok bear From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 21:49:37 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 22:49:37 -0400 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609011820420477.05F74272@10.0.0.252> References: <200609011820420477.05F74272@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 9/1/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 9/2/2006 at 1:04 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Again, is there a reason no to? > > Just wondering if I would run afoul of core saturation. Paralleling will NOT make it more likely to saturate the core. Cheers, > Chuck > > > From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 1 21:51:26 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 22:51:26 -0400 Subject: A little bit OT: an interesting POP In-Reply-To: <200609011524.k81FOD4J021632@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <008601c6cdd8$80ba4980$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200609010358.k813wrQP012932@floodgap.com> <200609011524.k81FOD4J021632@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200609012251.26482.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 01 September 2006 11:24 am, Dennis Boone wrote: > Actually, FidoNet used to do something similar. The answering machine > would emit a particular character sequence (the "EMSI whack") as part > of its human-readable banner message. If the automated caller spoke > the EMSI protocol, it'd see that and they'd switch into EMSI instead > of using YooHoo or some other langauge. If the caller was a human, > they just wondered what the hell **EMSI_5467 meant. (Yes, I know > that's not quite right.) Another ex-fidonetter? I was 1:270/615 and also 1:270/0 up until last October or thereabouts. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 1 22:05:12 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 23:05:12 -0400 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609011201540669.049C787A@10.0.0.252> References: <200609011201540669.049C787A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609012305.12082.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 01 September 2006 03:01 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a power transformer that I scavenged out of a 15-year old UPS, so > it's probably pretty close to being on-topic. > > At any rate, I want to use this transformer in a DC power supply. I have > three sets of windings: two sets are 120/240v "universal" series/parallel > type and the third is 24-0-24v center-tapped. > > I want to run this from 120vac. > > Is there any benefit to paralleling the two sets of 120/240v main windings > (i.e. 4 120v windings in parallel)? Will it increase the power rating of > the unit or is that mostly a function of the secondary winding? > > Suppose instead of 24-0-24 on the secondary, I'd like 12-0-12. Obviously, > one way to get this is to hook the primary (-ies) up as 240v. Is there any > benefit to be gained in parallelling the two 240v primaries? I would have to say that the exact answer to that would depend on the design of that particular transformer, but it would seem to me that pretty many of them that I've looked at are limited by the primary winding, particularly when it comes to output current, so if it were me I'd use them both. You could always apply some load to the secondary and try it both ways, increasing the load until some particular voltage drop happened. I seem to remember some discussion in the yahoo "electronics_101" group about this very subject a while back. Measuring the open-circuit voltage first, you'd want to draw current until you got no more than a 10% drop or so, and while doing that make note of just how warm that transformer is getting. Try this with one primary winding, and then with both, and that should give you a pretty definite answer. I also saw some stuff in the above-mentioned group that gave some rough idea of what sort of output current you might expect out of a given transformer by looking at the cross-section of the core. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 1 22:12:02 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 23:12:02 -0400 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200609012312.02896.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 01 September 2006 05:54 pm, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > I have never seen a hex number with a decimal point anyway... do they exist > and/or serve a purpose, or was it just a demonstrate your point? Actually if one were present it would be a hexadecimal point, I'd think. I've never seen one either, nor any reference to one, but I have seen something or other referring to binary points. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 1 22:21:02 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 23:21:02 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200609011750340006.05DBAA76@10.0.0.252> References: <200609011750340006.05DBAA76@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609012321.02564.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 01 September 2006 08:50 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Trivia quiz: What piece of hardware (not IBM) for the 5150 and 5160 (i.e. > it was contemporary and 8 bit ISA) actually used 12-bit characters? Um, does IM6100 enter into that somewhere? (I hope I'm remembering that number right.) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 1 22:56:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 20:56:13 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200609012321.02564.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609011750340006.05DBAA76@10.0.0.252> <200609012321.02564.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609012056130805.0685A357@10.0.0.252> On 9/1/2006 at 11:21 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Um, does IM6100 enter into that somewhere? (I hope I'm remembering that >number right.) Not what I'm thinking of--this was a gen-you-ine mainstream market ISA card. Cheers, Chuck From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 23:03:32 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:03:32 +1000 Subject: commodore 64/128 question References: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00e701c6ce44$c3606410$0100a8c0@pentium> Hi Jay, > So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a C64, > will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like a > 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality to > play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then I'd > best just stick with getting a C64. > > Advice? 99.9% compatible - there are a few badly written C64 programs that won't work & you may have issues with some fast loaders in 64 mode. However, by & large it's a superior machine - C128 40 & 80 colum modes, 64 mode, CP/M mode & let's not forget it's better keyboard! If you must, get the 128D rather than the flat 128. Looks better & if you get the metal case job (DCR) you'll end up with a 64k VDC rather than the 16k one in the origanl D & flat C128. I have a 128D here on my desk & it takes up less space than the 64 it replaced (monitor behind, floppy beside). cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Commodore 128 forums & more! // From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 23:03:32 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:03:32 +1000 Subject: commodore 64/128 question References: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00e701c6ce44$c3606410$0100a8c0@pentium> Hi Jay, > So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a C64, > will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like a > 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality to > play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then I'd > best just stick with getting a C64. > > Advice? 99.9% compatible - there are a few badly written C64 programs that won't work & you may have issues with some fast loaders in 64 mode. However, by & large it's a superior machine - C128 40 & 80 colum modes, 64 mode, CP/M mode & let's not forget it's better keyboard! If you must, get the 128D rather than the flat 128. Looks better & if you get the metal case job (DCR) you'll end up with a 64k VDC rather than the 16k one in the origanl D & flat C128. I have a 128D here on my desk & it takes up less space than the 64 it replaced (monitor behind, floppy beside). cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Commodore 128 forums & more! // From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Sep 1 22:45:47 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <20060901145001.N39116@shell.lmi.net> References: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> <20060901145001.N39116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609020416.AAA20329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > LAZY. > It has non-integer math support for decimal, but they left it off of > the other bases. Lazy indeed. >> I have never seen a hex number with a decimal point anyway... Nor will you; as Fred already pointed out, it's a hexadecimal point. That aside, they do exist, though they're rare. While practically everything these days uses IEEE floating-point, which is binary-based, there have been machines with floating-point arithmetic that worked in other bases, like octal or hex. For them, speaking of the "decimal" point in a number printed in hex notation makes perfect sense. > As quick exercises, 1) what is the binary fraction for PI? % calc 1> const(pi) $1 = 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592 2> cvt($$,2) $2 = #b11.00100100001111110110101010001000100001011010001100001000110101 Something seems broken in my computation of pi for high precision values; when I try to use base 2 and 1023-"digit" precision, I get a negative number(!). But computing pi to 64-"digit" precision in base 255 (the highest that calculator program supports) and then converting to binary gives #b11.001001000011111101101010100010001000010110100011000010001101001100010011000110011000101000101110000000110111000001110011010001001010010000001001001110000010001000101001100111110011000111010000000010000010111011111010100110001110110001001110011011001000100101000101001010000010000111100110001110001101000000010011011101111011111001010100011001101100111100110100111010010000110001101100110000001010110000101001101101111100100101111100010100001101110100111111100001001101010110110101101101010100011100001000011011011011010110111101101011111101011101110100111001110000101111111001101000100000011001001011110100110011001010101011101101001001011101001000111011111011001110000100011110001100101001000000100000100100110100000010010101100100011010111010010101000001001110111111010010111001110000110101001111010001011110010001001000010100111001001011101100011110011100110001000110111010100100011010100000000010011100110001111100100111111000011010000100110010101111001010010000000110100001111111! 11! 11100101110111101101100001 of which I'd recommend not trusting the low dozen or so bits. > 2) what is the IEEE 32 bit floating point bit pattern for PI? 01000000010010010000111111011011 0 Sign bit 0, indicating positive. 10000000 Excess-127 exponent 128 (unbiased exponent 1, value in [2,4)). 10010010000111111011011 Mantissa (1.)10010010000111111011011, rounded up from ...010 10100.... > 3) Who is attributed with "God created the integers, all else is the > work of man"? Leopold Kronecker, of Kronecker delta fame, I think it is. I'm not entirely sure I agree with it, but then, I'm not sure to what extent I'm a Platonist, so.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Sep 1 23:09:20 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:09:20 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 37, Issue 5 Message-ID: <01C6CE24.38EF7700@MSE_D03> I really don't get what all this fuss is about; the 10 year rule has apparently not been in effect for some time and I haven't noticed any sudden flood of questions about WinXP, so why suddenly these demands to have it or some other rule (re-)instated? Seems to me until this present time-waster things were going along pretty well. When I tell my "normal" friends about the current discussion here and show them some of the messages, they can't believe they're meant seriously; talk about confirming the stereotype of computer geeks with too much time on their hands. Even though much of the traffic was of little or no direct relevance to me, I've enjoyed this list for five years or so because for the most part it was informative and interesting; any chance we could get back to talking about computers instead of rules any time soon? mike From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 1 23:19:23 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:19:23 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question References: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <00e701c6ce44$c3606410$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <00a901c6ce46$f8c68470$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Lyon" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 12:03 AM Subject: Re: commodore 64/128 question > Hi Jay, > > > So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a C64, > > will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like a > > 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality to > > play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then I'd > > best just stick with getting a C64. > > > > Advice? > > 99.9% compatible - there are a few badly written C64 programs that won't > work & you may have issues with some fast loaders in 64 mode. However, by & > large it's a superior machine - C128 40 & 80 colum modes, 64 mode, CP/M mode > & let's not forget it's better keyboard! If you must, get the 128D rather > than the flat 128. Looks better & if you get the metal case job (DCR) you'll > end up with a 64k VDC rather than the 16k one in the origanl D & flat C128. > I have a 128D here on my desk & it takes up less space than the 64 it > replaced (monitor behind, floppy beside). > > cheers, > > Lance > // http://landover.no-ip.com > Commodore 128 forums & more! // If all you are going to do is play games a standard C64/1541 setup is MUCH cheaper then the 128 DCR. Heck I have 3 sets of C64's and 1541's on the shelf just incase one dies (2xC64c+1541c and 1x C64/1541). The most expensive part is probably a working Monitor plus shipping. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Sep 1 23:36:01 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 21:36:01 -0700 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed In-Reply-To: <55F632CB-50ED-450D-B783-1C8D307EFD9E@typewritten.org> References: <200608312058.k7VKwLSk009240@mwave.heeltoe.com> <55F632CB-50ED-450D-B783-1C8D307EFD9E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <44F90A31.3000605@dakotacom.net> r.stricklin wrote: > > On Aug 31, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > >> I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so it's >> not very interesting. > > I think you'd find there to be more than a few folks on this list who > would find it quite interesting, myself included. Agreed. I've played with a beta copy of 3.0 but found the xdm implementation "problematic" for my use. :-( From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Sep 1 23:29:33 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609012305.12082.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609011201540669.049C787A@10.0.0.252> <200609012305.12082.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609020431.AAA20435@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...paralleling two primary windings of a transformer...] Just make *very* sure you get the phasing right; swap the ends of one of the primary windings and you have a close approximation to a dead short across the incoming power feed. Something will blow; if you're lucky it'll be your mains fuse/breaker rather than the transformer. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Sep 1 23:46:16 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:46:16 -0500 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed Message-ID: Bear writes: >On Aug 31, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > >>I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so >>it's >>not very interesting. > >I think you'd find there to be more than a few folks on this list who >would find it quite interesting, myself included. Yes, and wouldn't you know it, I passed up a bunch of Spocks (IIx Macs) a few months ago because I didn't know what I'd do with them. Arrgh. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 23:48:55 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:48:55 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200609011750340006.05DBAA76@10.0.0.252> References: <200609011750340006.05DBAA76@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I've always thought that 12-bit characters were eminently practical. > Enough for many non-European alphabets--lots of elbow room. Of course, > that means that word length is not a power of 2, but then there have been > plenty of 12, 24, 36, 48 and 60 bit word length machines. Practical for that application, but IBM figured out why 8 bits is such a great unit - one can pack two BCD digits in a byte (before the web, a huge amount of data was banking records), yet it is still really handy for alpha characters. A 12 bit character would be innefficient in the long run. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 2 00:00:51 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:00:51 -0400 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed References: Message-ID: <00c001c6ce4c$c3c790b0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Quinn" To: Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 12:46 AM Subject: Re: QIC 80 drive needed > > > Bear writes: > > >On Aug 31, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > > > >>I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so > >>it's > >>not very interesting. > > > >I think you'd find there to be more than a few folks on this list who > >would find it quite interesting, myself included. > > Yes, and wouldn't you know it, I passed up a bunch of Spocks (IIx Macs) > a few months ago because I didn't know what I'd do with them. > > Arrgh. > > I passed up a pair of IIx Macs last year when I picked up a Q950 and a WGS95. The IIx would have been A/UX 1 era machines I think (My IIfx was not supported until 2.01 I think). The machines were way to yellowed, which is probably why I passed them up (bit I did snag the RAM, video cards, network cards, and the Radius Rockets before the owner scrapped them). A/UX 3 came with the WGS95, probably the highpoint of my collecting last year. I have to say the big box Mac II's are very nice machines. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 2 00:04:35 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 23:04:35 -0600 Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: <000001c6ce26$d3a01280$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <000001c6ce26$d3a01280$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <44F910E3.9030000@jetnet.ab.ca> Julian Wolfe wrote: > What pisses me off is when stuff like 120v mains hotdog cookers get > mentioned in one topic and it turns into its own. Everyone on this list > should know better than to turn that into a thread. > Well I think it better since you can look at the subject line and know what to read and not read, or re-post to. I feel 'changing the subject to the correct topic' is more important than leaving a long thread that spans many topics. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 2 01:08:56 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <006f01c6ce2e$3946b330$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200609020055.k820tRO9016074@floodgap.com> <005301c6ce2b$fe0f29c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <006f01c6ce2e$3946b330$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > The C128 video out can look worse then the C64 because of the video chip > (some people complain about lines on the screen), and I do not know which > SID version the 128 uses (if that is a factor to you). I've found 128s with 6581s and 8580s. I'm not sure if there's a way to check for sure without opening the case. If a C64C has the graphic characters on the key tops, then it has an 8580. Otherwise, it's an older C64C and therefore has a 6581. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 2 01:38:56 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern CP/M machine classic? Message-ID: I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a "classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some examples: P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. Replica I: An Apple I clone with modern parts replacing the discontinued parts of the original SBC1620: Uses the Harris 1620 CPU to create something roughly equivalent to a PDP8e. An optional near clone of the PDP8e front panel is/was also available. Has an IDE port to use modern hard drives or CF cards for storage. Other machines to consider are completely new, but are designed and built with classic computing in mind. Specifically I mean the half-dozen or so machines built from discrete TTL chips. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 2 01:56:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 23:56:06 -0700 Subject: Modern CP/M machine classic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609012356060819.072A52A2@10.0.0.252> On 9/1/2006 at 11:38 PM David Griffith wrote: >I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a >"classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some examples: ... How about a CP/M machine built out of an FPGA? What would be the difference between that and say, an emulation packaged in a nice authentic-looking box being run on a (gasp) Pentium? How about CP/M 2.2 running on a NEC V30? I don't know. Any of the above might be interesting. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 1 16:15:19 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 22:15:19 +0100 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <000b01c6cde5$09901440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200609011648.k81GmqCS016634@floodgap.com> <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44F8A2E7.30000@gjcp.net> Sean Conner wrote: > So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made > anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if > the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still > off topic." See, I'd put that as "... capable of running Windows 95 or better unless there's something really cool or weird about it, it's still off-topic" Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 1 19:39:45 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 20:39:45 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <0J4X00G3KWHYP9E1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Octal > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 00:36:59 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Seven segment displays are also ergonomic disasters - the military >> found it is far easier to read a seven segment display incorrectly >> than just about every other method. > >Does anyone else remmeber the 8 and 9 segment displays used by (IIRC) >Sharp in the early 1970s. They were vacuum flourescnet, single digit to >an envelope, made by Itron (IIRC). The segments were curved, and you got >much more natural-looking digits than from a 7 segment straight-bar >display. Of course the problem that 2 rapidly alternating digits can look >like something totally different remains. > >-tony I have two 12 digit bottles, 4 individual digits and a 40x2 bottle of the VF type and a working Sharp calc that uses said VF disply. Allison From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Sep 2 05:01:07 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:01:07 +0100 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) References: Message-ID: <001201c6ce76$b6349540$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Tony Duell" > > At any rate, I want to use this transformer in a DC power supply. I have > > three sets of windings: two sets are 120/240v "universal" series/parallel > > type and the third is 24-0-24v center-tapped. > > > > I want to run this from 120vac. > > > > Is there any benefit to paralleling the two sets of 120/240v main windings > > (i.e. 4 120v windings in parallel)? Will it increase the power rating of > > the unit or is that mostly a function of the secondary winding? > > In a lot of cases, the limiting factor is the primary winding (often when > a transformer burns out it's the primary the fails). So yes, I would > paralelle up both sets of windings. Is there a reason not to? > > > > > Suppose instead of 24-0-24 on the secondary, I'd like 12-0-12. Obviously, > > one way to get this is to hook the primary (-ies) up as 240v. Is there any > > benefit to be gained in parallelling the two 240v primaries? > > Again, is there a reason no to? > > -tony > > Most of the old transformer "kits" (wind your own secondary), supplied by the likes of RS, required you to parallel the 110V primaries in order to achieve the full VA rating at 110V. Paralleling the secondaries is fine, you will only saturate the core if you exceed the VA rating of the transformer (assuming a correctly designed transformer). However, it is always better to use full wave rectification (centre tapped or Bridge), to avoid any DC component in the secondary, as this can lead to saturation at lower VA loads than would be normally expected (unless the transformer is designed for half wave rectification). Jim. From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sat Sep 2 06:36:08 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 13:36:08 +0200 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <20060901173730.GD2105@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On 9/1/06 7:37 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made > anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if > the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still > off topic." VMS, UNIX, BSD, Linux, AIX, OS/390, zOS, CP/M, A/UX, Mac OS, OS-9, QNX, Solaris, IRIX, ... All off-topic, now? They're all better than Win95, aren't they? ,xtG .tsooJ -- Why do people point to their wrist when asking for the time, but not to their crotch when asking where the bathroom is? -- Joost van de Griek From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Sep 2 07:06:03 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 08:06:03 -0400 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 01 Sep 2006 19:43:26 PDT." <55F632CB-50ED-450D-B783-1C8D307EFD9E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <200609021206.k82C63m8031148@mwave.heeltoe.com> "r.stricklin" wrote: > >On Aug 31, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > >> I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so >> it's >> not very interesting. > >I think you'd find there to be more than a few folks on this list who >would find it quite interesting, myself included. I just looked in a drawer in my home office and found an 8mm tape labeled "A/UX 0.7". I think that's it. As I recall it's a copy of a 9-track so I may have the 9track somewhere (and these days 9-tracks are much easier to read and more reliable than 8mm - for me anyway) Last time I tried my 8mm drive would not load, but I think I have another aquired at a swap. I'll try reading some other expendable 8mm's first. -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 2 08:42:09 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 08:42:09 -0500 Subject: Modern CP/M machine classic? References: Message-ID: <000a01c6ce95$96953e50$6700a8c0@BILLING> David wrote... > P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs > ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. Yes > Replica I: An Apple I clone with modern parts replacing the discontinued > parts of the original Yes > SBC1620: Uses the Harris 1620 CPU to create something roughly equivalent > to a PDP8e. Yes > Other machines to consider are completely new, but are designed and built > with classic computing in mind. Specifically I mean the half-dozen or so > machines built from discrete TTL chips. Yes From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 2 09:06:11 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 15:06:11 +0100 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44F7666C.4020406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> <44F7666C.4020406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44F98FD3.4030701@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 9/1/06, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> And >>> http://www.selectric.org/tubeclock/ > >> That is essentially what I had in mind. Thanks for the pointer. > With the comment about the south pole, on the heating budget for > the clock, I found out for some reasion penguincentral.com > is down. I was looking for SBC-1620 software and was hopeing to find > more about the adventure port. Could a older Z-machine engine be ported > to the loveable 8? Interesting. Looking (very quickly) at the Z-machine spec, it seems fairly simple. This gives me a good excuse to start on my PDP-8 emulator again - at least that way if I need more core, I just need to change a #define instead of starting a big long thread about semiconductor memory ;-) Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 2 09:12:56 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 15:12:56 +0100 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <200608311903.36801.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608310827.JAA19962@citadel.metropolis.local> <200608311903.36801.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44F99168.9070306@gjcp.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Thursday 31 August 2006 04:27 am, Stan Barr wrote: >> Roy J. Tellason said: >>> Anybody having any vacuum tubes they don't want, I might be interested. >>> I can't offer much of anything for them, but if they're gonna get >>> tossed... >> Just for informational purposes: 12AU7s (and 12AX7 and 12AT7) are still >> available new. You probably won't like the price, but they're still in >> production - us electric guitar players use them, > > Along with 6L6 and maybe 5U4 and some other numbers for output tubes, no > doubt. To get that "Marshall sound"... :-) Well if it's the "Marshall sound" it should be ECC83s and EL34s, not this American stuff. Gordon (drifting offtopic, sorry Jay) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 2 09:35:32 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 09:35:32 -0500 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) References: <200608310827.JAA19962@citadel.metropolis.local><200608311903.36801.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F99168.9070306@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <001401c6ce9d$0baea4e0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Gordon wrote.... > Gordon (drifting offtopic, sorry Jay) Yup, I was just going to mention it ;) J From dgreelish at mac.com Sat Sep 2 09:49:02 2006 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:49:02 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <200609020323.k823LHBK030646@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609020323.k823LHBK030646@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8B589B34-75CB-4071-A7D2-ECDE7EB4B14B@mac.com> On Sep 1, 2006, at 11:23 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:21:11 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > My personal advice, get a C64, or maybe a C64c, skip the C128. I'm > saying > this not because I have anything against the C128, but because it > will be > different from what you remember. Plus as has been pointed out, it > does > take up more desktop space. > > My "fondness" for the VIC-20 has been replaced with a "fondness" > for the C64 > (a machine I hated when I was using the VIC-20, which was through > mid-1986). > I really want to setup my one nice C64 system, I mean I *REALLY* > want to set > it up. Unfortunatly I don't have the space, and truth be told, the > time. I > also really want to setup an Apple // of some sort, most likely a // > gs, but > there is the same problem. > > I need to find a really good excuse to set up one or the other, and > so far I > haven't found one. > > Zane I agree with this, the C64 or a 64C (I had both) represent the height of Commodore 8-bit, though I have always wanted a 128D. There are supposedly "mint" in box examples of these on eBay right now. VIC-20 too. The 128 does have the Z-80 for CP/M though, if that interests you. David DavidGreelish classiccomputing.com The Home of Classic Computing Podcast and Computer History Nostalgia From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 2 10:43:31 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 09:43:31 -0600 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44F98FD3.4030701@gjcp.net> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> <44F7666C.4020406@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F98FD3.4030701@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <44F9A6A3.2000404@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Interesting. Looking (very quickly) at the Z-machine spec, it seems > fairly simple. This gives me a good excuse to start on my PDP-8 > emulator again - at least that way if I need more core, I just need to > change a #define instead of starting a big long thread about > semiconductor memory ;-) Oddly I think the world has more than ample simple PDP-8 emulators. SimH is the only one I trust to have most of the 'bugs' and 'un-documented' features of a real machine. > Gordon. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 2 10:46:29 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:46:29 -0400 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <20060901145001.N39116@shell.lmi.net> References: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> <20060901145001.N39116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sep 1, 2006, at 6:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> No offense intended, but are you sure it's not >> set up for no decimal places, or perhaps >> it's just MS's programmers being lazy? :) > > LAZY. > It has non-integer math support for decimal, > but they left it off of the other bases. Lazy and inexperienced. The math doesn't need to be re-done in other bases. Bases are an input/output representation only...and as such, any conversion for a given base should be done at the time of entry and display, and that's all. Yay Microsoft "engineers". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Sep 2 10:21:58 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 16:21:58 +0100 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 02 Sep 2006 15:12:56 BST." <44F99168.9070306@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200609021521.QAA32756@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Gordon JC Pearce said: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Thursday 31 August 2006 04:27 am, Stan Barr wrote: > >> Roy J. Tellason said: > >>> Anybody having any vacuum tubes they don't want, I might be interested. > >>> I can't offer much of anything for them, but if they're gonna get > >>> tossed... > >> Just for informational purposes: 12AU7s (and 12AX7 and 12AT7) are still > >> available new. You probably won't like the price, but they're still in > >> production - us electric guitar players use them, > > > > Along with 6L6 and maybe 5U4 and some other numbers for output tubes, no > > doubt. To get that "Marshall sound"... :-) > > Well if it's the "Marshall sound" it should be ECC83s and EL34s, not > this American stuff. > > Gordon (drifting offtopic, sorry Jay) Or in my case 7025, 12AT7 and 6L6 - Fender Twin... Getting back to the topic, I've run 12AX7s on 12.6 volt anode supply which eases power supply requirements at the expense of gain, but I've not tried that with digital circuits, perhaps an experimental flip-flop is in order. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ray at arachelian.com Sat Sep 2 10:58:15 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 11:58:15 -0400 Subject: looking for Darwin USIIi module (pushing OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F9AA17.6000108@arachelian.com> I don't have one of those, and I know this won't help you, but I do have a bunch of CPU boards for a e4000, most with 2 250Mhz CPU's & some memory. Scott Quinn wrote: > O.K. - this is pushing it alot, but I'd rather buy from someone I know than > an e-bay unknown. > > I'm looking for an UltraSPARC IIi module for Sun Darwin boards > (Ultra 5/10), 333MHz or 360MHz. Thought someone might > have upgraded and have one in their junk box. > > $9+ shipping for 333, perhaps more for a 360? > > Scott > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 2 11:02:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 09:02:11 -0700 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <001201c6ce76$b6349540$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: <001201c6ce76$b6349540$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <200609020902110761.091E4D3A@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 11:01 AM Jim Beacon wrote: >Paralleling the secondaries is fine, you will only saturate the core if you >exceed the VA rating of the transformer (assuming a correctly designed >transformer). However, it is always better to use full wave rectification >(centre tapped or Bridge), to avoid any DC component in the secondary, as >this can lead to saturation at lower VA loads than would be normally >expected (unless the transformer is designed for half wave rectification). Thanks, Jim. That's the answer I was looking for! Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 2 11:03:36 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 12:03:36 -0400 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060901184252.0c0fee18@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060901184252.0c0fee18@localhost> Message-ID: On Sep 1, 2006, at 7:45 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > I haven't found a way to drive nixies from more modern equipment yet, > not one that I understand, anyhow. Especially the Burroughs 7971 > "British Flag" one. I thought of building a character generator using > a PAL, but I really haven't decided what I want to do wit them yet. > Maybe create an "On the air" sign with my callsign, alternating with a > clock display. Nixie tubes are actually really easy to drive...74141 chips (BCD input, not for your B7971s without some fancy footwork) are hard to find, but Russian clones of them (K155ID1) work fine and are readily available. Lacking that, MPSA42 transistors can drive Nixies. The only real problem is a source of HV, but several people (including myself) are working on small "canned" HV generator modules which will be available cheaply. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ray at arachelian.com Sat Sep 2 11:29:13 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 12:29:13 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44F9B159.3030204@arachelian.com> By all means, go for the C128. They're a lot better. Also, if you want it for Geos, know that you can run all of your C64 Geos programs in the C128 mode at higher resolutions, and at 2x the speed as long as you boot up C128-Geos. To boot up in C64 mode, all you have to do is press the Commodore key when it powers up. There's also a hidden mode that lets you jump directly into the monitor. You hold (I think) the run-stop key as you reset (or power) the C128. This has a very important use if you want to, um, reverse engineer any old C-64 programs after they've booted up. In this mode, most of the C64 memory hasn't been touched, and the monitor can be used to disassemble, or save an image of the rest of that memory to disk. For example, I used this trick back in the ancient days to capture a copy of Geos 1.3, and slap on a fast loader onto it, thus bypassing all the protection. :-) Didn't work for Geos 2.0, but that's less important. I'm a bit fuzzy on it, but if I remember right, you could cut a trace off the expansion port to prevent C64 cartridges from booting up and still allow the ROM to be visible to the C128 mode, and then use the monitor to save the cartridge's contents to disk. Since the C64 use memory windows, you can load the ROM into RAM and get it to run without the cart. (Some of these overwrote their memory space, thus writing to the RAM underneath the ROM addresses, thus prevented you from doing this, but you could use the monitor to find out where they did this and overwrite that code with NOP's.) If you can, try to get your hands on an REU, those were memory expansion cards for the C128 which GEOS could use as either virtual memory or a RAM drive. They were very useful. GEOS on the 128 in the 80 column mode (well, really in 640x200x1 hires mode) with a 1571 and REU and an appropriate printer made a very capable DTP system, and the right applications, and in some ways was as good as or better than an original Mac 128. (As an aside, GEOS used serial numbers to label its applications as an additional protection layer. The very first time you booted off a GEOS disk it would write a random 16 bit number to the disk, and serialize itself. Then, the first time you loaded an application such as GeoPublish, or GeoWrite, etc. it would write that same serial number to the application. The next time it ran, it would compare the application's serial number to itself. If it didn't match, it refused to run the application. This is almost identical to the DRM that the Apple Lisa used, except that the serial number wasn't burned into a ROM on the Commodore's. For shits and giggles I wrote a small GEOS program that let you see the serial # and reset it by overwriting the GEOS kernel routine that returned it, to get around this. :-) ) If you liked coding in basic, the c128's basic is a lot more capable. It's better than the PET's basic. However, to use the 80 column mode of the C128, you'll need an RGB monitor. You can use a VGA monitor with the appropriate db9-hdb15 converter. Unfortunately, few monitors support the composite video needed for the 40 column/C64 mode and the RGB modes, but they're worth it if you can find'em. For the composite mode, you should be able to use one of those small car LCD monitors with the appropriate power supply, and powered speakers. I'm sure there are some composite to VGA adapters out there too, but they're probably on expensive side. Possibly a modern LCD screen TV that has VGA and composite inputs would work just fine for both modes. You probably don't care about this very much, but the C128 with a 1571 also has a CP/M mode. So you're really getting 3 computers in one case. If you've never messed around with CP/M, it's a fun stroll down memory lane to see DOS's precursor. Also, the 1571 can be used to transfer files back and forth to PC's - but you'll of course need a PC with a 5.25" drive too. (You can do the same with a 1541 and a special cable that goes to the parallel port of a PC + software.) Jay West wrote: > So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a > C64, will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so > I'd like a 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra > functionality to play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 > software, then I'd best just stick with getting a C64. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 2 12:00:44 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 13:00:44 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <8B589B34-75CB-4071-A7D2-ECDE7EB4B14B@mac.com> References: <200609020323.k823LHBK030646@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8B589B34-75CB-4071-A7D2-ECDE7EB4B14B@mac.com> Message-ID: <200609021300.44988.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 September 2006 10:49 am, David Greelish wrote: > > I also really want to setup an Apple // of some sort, most likely a // > > gs, but there is the same problem. Hm, I just happen to have a IIgs system I'm not doing anything with... > > I need to find a really good excuse to set up one or the other, and > > so far I haven't found one. > > > > Zane > > I agree with this, the C64 or a 64C (I had both) represent the height > of Commodore 8-bit, though I have always wanted a 128D. There are > supposedly "mint" in box examples of these on eBay right now. VIC-20 > too. The 128 does have the Z-80 for CP/M though, if that interests you. Back in the day when I worked on a lot of this stuff, I saw a fair number of both CP/M boxes and c= stuff, and one time did actually take a few minutes and boot CP/M on a 128/1571 combo. It ran, and I was able to take some of the software that I was used to running on other platforms and run it there, but I was not all that impressed with the way it ran-- it was slow. People should also be aware of the misleading stuff in the way the speed of that part is presented. They called it "a 4 MHz Z80" but even though it was indeed that chip the way they had it configured in there was so tightly coupled with the rest of the system that it only ran some of the time, rather than all of the time, giving an effective clock rate of somewhere around 2.5 MHz. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 2 12:02:40 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 13:02:40 -0400 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <200609021521.QAA32756@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200609021521.QAA32756@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <200609021302.40969.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 September 2006 11:21 am, Stan Barr wrote: > Or in my case 7025, 12AT7 and 6L6 - Fender Twin... :-) > Getting back to the topic, I've run 12AX7s on 12.6 volt anode supply > which eases power supply requirements at the expense of gain, but I've > not tried that with digital circuits, perhaps an experimental flip-flop > is in order. There might be better choices. Have a look here: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/tubes.html -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 2 12:05:39 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 13:05:39 -0400 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060901184252.0c0fee18@localhost> Message-ID: <200609021305.39721.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 September 2006 12:03 pm, Dave McGuire wrote: > The only real problem is a source of HV, but several people (including > myself) are working on small "canned" HV generator modules which will > be available cheaply. Sounds good. I would be interested in hearing more on this as it develops. Aside from that, several terminals that I've encountered (and some of which ended up being scrapped) had a power supply that provided both the typical +5 and +/-12 but also had an output for the "CRT board" which was typically at least 100V, perhaps higher. It shouldn't be too much of a problem to get from there to the 170V that seems to be favored for Nixie tubes. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 2 12:10:43 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 13:10:43 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <44F9B159.3030204@arachelian.com> References: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44F9B159.3030204@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200609021310.43368.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 September 2006 12:29 pm, Ray Arachelian wrote: > However, to use the 80 column mode of the C128, you'll need an RGB > monitor. You can use a VGA monitor with the appropriate db9-hdb15 > converter. Unfortunately, few monitors support the composite video > needed for the 40 column/C64 mode and the RGB modes, but they're worth > it if you can find'em. If you want 80-column _monochrome_ (which I did for my bench setup since I didn't have an RGB monitor handy to test these units with) it's not all that hard to make an adapter cable to use. A fair number of different mono monitors worked with this. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Sep 2 12:16:46 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 12:16:46 -0500 Subject: Ontopic vs offtopic (WAS Re: Modern CP/M machine classic?) Message-ID: <5ba7337560ad4212a0e3bdfd1686cc31@valleyimplants.com> OK guys, I've been trying to stay out of this thread but I'm getting tired of it. It seems to be generally accepted that emulations and reimplementations of classic architectures are on topic. Can we please stop asking about everyone's pet implementation or remake? I'm sorry about creating noise with the pickle thread - let's get over it. From technobug at comcast.net Sat Sep 2 13:01:19 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:01:19 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609021613.k82GD7Qu041656@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609021613.k82GD7Qu041656@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <100F4143-3B3D-4CE6-A2BE-CC3CD672B687@comcast.net> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:45:47 -0400 (EDT), der Mouse wrote: >>> I have never seen a hex number with a decimal point anyway... > > Nor will you; as Fred already pointed out, it's a hexadecimal point. > That aside, they do exist, though they're rare. While practically > everything these days uses IEEE floating-point, which is binary-based, > there have been machines with floating-point arithmetic that worked in > other bases, like octal or hex. For them, speaking of the "decimal" > point in a number printed in hex notation makes perfect sense. In the embedded world, the use of fixed point arithmetic is rampant. If you use a fixed point DSP, the use of pointed hexadecimal makes life infinitely easier than having to continually convert between decimal and hex. The issues of underflow/overflow are immediately obvious. The last time I checked, those little buggers outnumber the number of IEEE floating-point PCs of all flavors ever made. >> As quick exercises, 1) what is the binary fraction for PI? By way of trusty Mathematica: Pi to 1000 decimal places converted to base 2: In[1]:= BaseForm[N[Pi,1000],2] Out[1]//BaseForm= " 11.001001000011111101101010100010001000010110100011000010001101001100010 01\ 100011001100010100010111000000011011100000111001101000100101001000000100 100111\ 000001000100010100110011111001100011101000000001000001011101111101010011 000111\ 011000100111001101100100010010100010100101000001000011110011000111000110 100000\ 001001101110111101111100101010001100110110011110011010011101001000011000 110110\ 011000000101011000010100110110111110010010111110001010000110111010011111 110000\ 100110101011011010110110101010001110000100100010111100100100001011011010 101110\ 110011000100101111001111110110001101111010001001100010000101110100110100 110001\ 101111110110101101011000010111111111101011100101101101111010000000110101 101111\ 110110111101110001110000110101111111011010110101000100110011111101001011 010111\ 010011111001001000001000101111100010010110001111111100110010010010010100 001100\ 110010100011110110011100100010110110011110111000010000000000111110010111 000101\ 000010110001110111111000001011001100011011010010010000011011000011100010 101011\ 101001110011010011010010001011000111111101010001111110100100100110011110 101111\ 110000011011001010101110100100011110111001010001110101101100101100001110 001100\ 010111100110101011000100000100001010101001010111011100111101101010100101 001000\ 001110111000010010110100101100110110101100111000011000011010101001110010 010101\ 011110010011000000001001111000101110100011011000000100011001010000110000 010000\ 101111100001100101001000001011110010001100010111000110110110011100011101 111100\ 011100111100111011100101100000110000000111010000110000000111001101100100 111100\ 000111010001011101100000001111010001010001111101101011100010101011101111 100000\ 110111101001100010100101100100111011110001010111100101111110110100101010 101100\ 000010111000110000011100110010101010010010111110011101010100101010110101 011100\ 101000101011101001000100110000110001001100011111010000001010001000000010 101011\ 100101000111001011010100010101010101011000100001011011010110100110011000 101110\ 000110100000100010100000111101000110011101010000101010100100001101010111 101111\ 100011100101110100110010011101100111110111000010100000100010110001101101 111101\ 111000010101000101011101010011100010101011101011101000001100000110001111 101101\ 100111001011100001111100001011010011011100001111001001100011110101011111 101011\ 010111010001100110110110000100100110011110101110001111010001100100101001 110000\ 001001010001001010110000110011101110011101110001111010010001001100001101 011010\ 010111011100110101111110001001011111111101000000110110110011000101000001 000011\ 001001101100001110110000000100111001100111110110010000110101001100100010 100100\ 001111100101011000110000001011101111011001000000000110010111011111000010 001011\ 101010111011110100110000101011101011011000111011100001001100010001100000 010111\ 010110110010100011011100010000010001110001001001111101000000111010011100 101101\ 010110011000101000011110110110101101111111100111000001111110100010000100 011100\ 100101110000010110100010010000010101001001000010000100000000001000110100 111001\ 000111100000100101010011110000111111001101101011110001000011100011001101 000010\ 000101111011011101001011011001001101001100111000011001001110001100001101 010111\ 101001110001000111100000110101001010001101000001101001011011000010101000 010111\ 101101000100101100000111110100111001010001010101101010001001100111010001 101101\ 110111011110000101101101100000100110111101000111100"\_2\) CRC From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 2 13:03:37 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:03:37 -0700 Subject: Another C64 Question In-Reply-To: References: <200609020055.k820tRO9016074@floodgap.com> <005301c6ce2b$fe0f29c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <006f01c6ce2e$3946b330$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: What solutions are people using to get data on and off of their C64's? In the past I was able to use my old 486 with a X1541 cable and a dedicated 1541 drive. I also had a Catweasel in my Amiga (still have both, but the A3000 is back in its original case with no room for a 5 1/4" drive, and up in storage), but found it to be less than a perfect solution, at least at that time. I really like the look of a MMC64 (MMC adapter for the 64), but they seem to be sold out. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 2 13:14:47 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another C64 Question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 2, 6 11:03:37 am" Message-ID: <200609021814.k82IElmd013220@floodgap.com> > In the past I was able to use my old 486 with a X1541 cable and a > dedicated 1541 drive. That's pretty much how I still do it. I have an old 486 laptop on my desk expressly for that purpose, and a few other things to play with. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All the sensitive [men] get eaten. -- "Ice Age" ---------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 2 13:15:50 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <200609021310.43368.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Sep 2, 6 01:10:43 pm" Message-ID: <200609021815.k82IFoBp013094@floodgap.com> > > However, to use the 80 column mode of the C128, you'll need an RGB > > monitor. You can use a VGA monitor with the appropriate db9-hdb15 > > converter. Unfortunately, few monitors support the composite video > > needed for the 40 column/C64 mode and the RGB modes, but they're worth > > it if you can find'em. > > If you want 80-column _monochrome_ (which I did for my bench setup since I > didn't have an RGB monitor handy to test these units with) it's not all that > hard to make an adapter cable to use. A fair number of different mono > monitors worked with this. Right. Just connect pin 7. The 1802 monitor was actually sold with such an adaptor, so it was officially sanctioned by Commodore. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Goldfinger" --------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 2 13:17:29 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <200609021300.44988.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Sep 2, 6 01:00:44 pm" Message-ID: <200609021817.k82IHT0I013890@floodgap.com> > Back in the day when I worked on a lot of this stuff, I saw a fair number of > both CP/M boxes and c= stuff, and one time did actually take a few minutes > and boot CP/M on a 128/1571 combo. It ran, and I was able to take some of > the software that I was used to running on other platforms and run it there, > but I was not all that impressed with the way it ran-- it was slow. Part of that was the software implementation, however. A number of people have rewritten portions of the BIOS/BDOS and made some decent speed gains. Mind you, I think I've used my 128 in its CP/M capacity exactly twice. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Los Angeles 2001: "Ohmigosh, it's full of *cars!*" ------------------------- From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Sat Sep 2 13:26:49 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 12:26:49 -0600 Subject: Reviving VAXstation 3100-m38, was Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: References: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <44F5CC2A.5090700@rogerwilco.org> <44F5DFD0.1090504@gmail.com> <44F62B28.6040504@mdrconsult.com> <44F6450E.9070708@rogerwilco.org> <44F72F7B.1090907@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <44F9CCE9.40703@rogerwilco.org> Paul Thompson wrote: >I have a mips ultrix machine so my console doesn't work the same, but google around some. It >would be BOOT/R5:00000001 DKAxxx or something similar. I have a boot manual around >somewhere if google isn't forthcoming. I used your suggested boot command, but still got the same experience with the hang after the failed chdir's. I did try a whole sequence of things, though, based on your model: I eventually found a combination that worked: BOOT/R5:00000002 DKA300. I tried /R2:00000001, /R3:00000001, and /R4:00000001, which don't work, before hitting on this. Later, while doing some more scanning of my looks-pretty-complete ULTRIX docset, I learned that the correct command for single-user boot is: BOOT/R2 DKAxxx. BOOT/R3 DKAxxx is the multi-user boot string. I found this in the _Guide to System Shutdown and Startup_ section. > /etc/fstab would probably be the spot to get rid of the nfs mounts, > once single user mode is accomplished. I'll double check the /etc/fstab and modify it perhaps. In the end, though, looks like this system was setup with an extremely minimalist install of ULTRIX. There are a few commands in /bin, but almost every other useful tool is a slink to something on /usr, which itself is an NFS mount to some unknown box, long gone to me. I think I'll just install NetBSD (if I can get a larger drive!), use it as a MOP server to revive the other uVAXen, and finally get their disks imaged, which was the original goal. Of course, I do have a couple of Debian boxes that could serve the MOP stuff, but I'll still need to figure out what image I can use, probably a NetBSD. The only real trouble is that one or two of the other VAXen don't have ethernet installed. I do have a spare DEQNA, so I'll try that. Well, off to the lab! > > I have a 5400 with a R215F and a DECstation 5000/260. > I can provide some help with those for sure. > > Super! I'll no doubt lean on you extensively when I get to that system. Gotta get these VAXen imaged first, then I'll work on that system. With it's DSSI drives, it should be interesting to get them imaged. Given that there's not a xBSD port for this system, I can only hope that there is a working ULTRIX set up on it. Thanks. Jared From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 2 14:45:08 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 19:45:08 +0000 Subject: transputer internals (was Re: Pentium for Non-PC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F9DF44.8050804@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Which makes me wonder what would happen if you fed it an extended instruction >>> that it didn't know how to deal with. >> I don't know, but finding out is one of the first things on my list of >> things to do once I build some boards to plug mine into and find or make a >> transputer link interface (anyone got a C012 they wouldn't mind selling?). > > Are ISA transputer boards (B004, etc) that hard to find now? I've only stumbled across one in the last four years, and that one was missing all the actual transputer modules from it and was just the ISA host board :-( > And are they really that hard to find or > expenssive that you have to spend hundreds of dollars to get one? I'd say so. I suppose the "supercomputer" associations tend to push the price up or something. Annoyingly we've had an offer of a complete Meiko CS1 along with the associated Microvax controlling host / graphical display, and nobody seems to be interested apart from me :( -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 2 14:46:21 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 19:46:21 +0000 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44F9DF8D.2030700@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > I was an avid C64 user, ran a C64 bbs for years, etc. etc. But when I > got rid of it years ago, one never made it back in to my collection as I > focus more on mini's than micros'. > > I find myself wanting to acquire a C64 for my collection and gaming fun, > as that was the system I had. Get yourself an early C64; the case design was a lot nicer and you'll feel better for it :-) -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 2 13:48:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 11:48:56 -0700 Subject: Another C64 Question In-Reply-To: <200609021814.k82IElmd013220@floodgap.com> References: <200609021814.k82IElmd013220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200609021148560717.09B6F6B2@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 11:14 AM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> In the past I was able to use my old 486 with a X1541 cable and a >> dedicated 1541 drive. Better to invest in a few schottky diodes and modify that to an XE1541. If you look at the way the X1541 drives some of the LPT pins, it's downright disgusting. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 2 14:54:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 19:54:47 +0000 Subject: age cutoff In-Reply-To: <016e01c6ce23$c844ff20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <016e01c6ce23$c844ff20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44F9E187.7010203@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Unfortunately, the above comes across as being windows bigoted. It most > certainly isn't. My criteria is more what I posted on the list a year > ago. It's kinda like... when I tell non-computer people what kind of > computers I'm interested in. I usually tell them "systems with blinking > lights" because that's the EASY way to say it. In fact, it has nothing > to do with blinking lights. It just so happens that most of the systems > I want HAPPEN (unrelated) to have blinking lights. So, the above looks > like I'm anti-windows, that's not the case. But it is the outward result > of other criteria. Has anyone else got a rough idea of the number of Windows/modern PC type topics that have turned up in the last year? My recollection is that they're a tiny fraction of one percent of total posts - but maybe my brain's blotting them out :-) What I'm getting at it that it all seems very self-policing here - do we actually need *any* kind of rule other than the knowing that it's a classic computer list? If any stricter rules are going to fall foul of certain machines, or if the rules will have to constantly change as time goes on, then why bother providing the list isn't turning into a PC/Windows forum (which doesn't seem to be the case to me at all) Let people make up their own mind what's classic and what isn't, and it'll all sort itself out. Very rarely someone might post something and risk offending a handful of purists, but to my mind it's better to have that than a strict set of rules which means that the community might miss out on something beneficial/interesting once in a while. > So I'd rather come up with a rule that can be applied > by anyone to get a reasonable determination. That may be impossible, I'm > open to ideas. I think it is, just as it's impossible to have an unmoderated list that's 100% on-topic all of the time. > Please take the above as just my own personal thoughts, and not some > edict from the list admin :) Sure :) cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 2 13:55:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 11:55:16 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <100F4143-3B3D-4CE6-A2BE-CC3CD672B687@comcast.net> References: <200609021613.k82GD7Qu041656@dewey.classiccmp.org> <100F4143-3B3D-4CE6-A2BE-CC3CD672B687@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200609021155160427.09BCC1EC@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 11:01 AM CRC wrote: >>>> I have never seen a hex number with a decimal point anyway... >> >> Nor will you; as Fred already pointed out, it's a hexadecimal point. >> That aside, they do exist, though they're rare. While practically >> everything these days uses IEEE floating-point, which is binary-based, >> there have been machines with floating-point arithmetic that worked in >> other bases, like octal or hex. For them, speaking of the "decimal" >> point in a number printed in hex notation makes perfect sense. Well, just wait a second. Seems to me that years ago (I probably still have the article), I recall an HP Journal publication that proposed to represent decimal numbers with a decimal point with a binary integer part and a fractional part made up of groupings of 10 bits to represent 000-999. I don't recall the gist of the perceived advantages. But one might argue that this was a case of a hex number with a decimal point. Cheers, Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Sat Sep 2 13:59:26 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:59:26 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) Message-ID: My idea of the best calculator on the desktop is an HP 9100A/B or 9810, 9820, or 9830, Wang 720C, IME-86S, or a Tektronix 31. No native octal, but they can be programmed to do octal math. It's on-topic, these things are over 30 years old. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 2 14:05:24 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 12:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another C64 Question In-Reply-To: <200609021148560717.09B6F6B2@10.0.0.252> from Chuck Guzis at "Sep 2, 6 11:48:56 am" Message-ID: <200609021905.k82J5O6k013802@floodgap.com> > > In the past I was able to use my old 486 with a X1541 cable and a > > dedicated 1541 drive. > > Better to invest in a few schottky diodes and modify that to an XE1541. If > you look at the way the X1541 drives some of the LPT pins, it's downright > disgusting. That was Zane, not me, but I also use a X1541 simply because it was convenient and I already have the cable :) This was a prefab one sold as part of the C64S commercial package, so it looks like it would be hard to modify anyway. XE1541 is quite a bit faster though. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Quoth the Web Server, "404!" ----------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 2 14:12:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 12:12:27 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609021212270310.09CC7CC5@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 11:59 AM Rick Bensene wrote: >My idea of the best calculator on the desktop is an HP 9100A/B or 9810, >9820, or 9830, Wang 720C, IME-86S, or a Tektronix 31. No native octal, >but they can be programmed to do octal math. > >It's on-topic, these things are over 30 years old. Rick, any particular reason that you don't like the TI SR-22? It could do also do hex--and it's over 30 years old. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Sep 2 14:14:01 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 14:14:01 -0500 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000301c6ce25$b524d6c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44F9D7F9.3040601@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a C64, > will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like > a 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality > to play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then > I'd best just stick with getting a C64. > > Advice? I'm surprised nobody has mentioned VICE or any of the other C= emulators. I'm not a huge follower of C64/C128 games, but all the stuff I've done in VICE has been true to the actual hardware's behavior. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 2 14:49:32 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 15:49:32 -0400 Subject: OCR software In-Reply-To: <44F892A0.5030802@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44F892A0.5030802@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c9d9286a0a62d8b9639ba3590abfd2@neurotica.com> On Sep 1, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> HP developed an OCR engine called Tesseract that is supposed to be >>> pretty good. They released it to the open-source world, and Google >>> has >>> picked it up and started working on it. >> classiccmp list member James Markevitch has been working on an OCR >> program >> as well, optimized for column formated input, like listings. > > Cross-platform, or one specific OS? At first glance, it appears to be Linux-specific, but that's generally pretty easy to un-do. The important part is it's not Windoze software. > I started putting some stuff together to allow a user to graphically > describe a scanned page (so you'd roughly mark out what were images, > what were columns of text etc.) prior to feeding to an OCR engine, as > experience of commercial products has been that they tend to get it > wrong too much to be left to run without user input. Unfortunately the > Linux OCR engines available proved to be just too poor in quality to > make it worthwhile, so I shelved it until something better came along > - maybe Tesseract will do the job. It's possible...might be worth looking into. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 2 15:22:29 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609020416.AAA20329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> <20060901145001.N39116@shell.lmi.net> <200609020416.AAA20329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060902125916.L84508@shell.lmi.net> We have a winner! (very nicely done!) It shall be your responsibility to answer for Andrew B 's next query topic, and seeing to it that he follows this. Are the details of the Pentium 1's FDIV problem on-topic? I wish that down-sizing hadn't taken away teaching the computer math class! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com http://merritt.edu/~fcisin On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, der Mouse wrote: > > LAZY. > > It has non-integer math support for decimal, but they left it off of > > the other bases. > > Lazy indeed. > > >> I have never seen a hex number with a decimal point anyway... > > Nor will you; as Fred already pointed out, it's a hexadecimal point. > That aside, they do exist, though they're rare. While practically > everything these days uses IEEE floating-point, which is binary-based, > there have been machines with floating-point arithmetic that worked in > other bases, like octal or hex. For them, speaking of the "decimal" > point in a number printed in hex notation makes perfect sense. > > > As quick exercises, 1) what is the binary fraction for PI? > > % calc > 1> const(pi) > $1 = 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592 > 2> cvt($$,2) > $2 = #b11.00100100001111110110101010001000100001011010001100001000110101 > > Something seems broken in my computation of pi for high precision > values; when I try to use base 2 and 1023-"digit" precision, I get a > negative number(!). But computing pi to 64-"digit" precision in base > 255 (the highest that calculator program supports) and then converting > to binary gives > > #b11.0010010000111111011010101000100010000101101000110000100011010011000100110001100110001010001011100000001101110000011100110100010010100100000010010011100000100010001010011001111100110001110100000000100000101110111110101001100011101100010011100110110010001001010001010010100000100001111001100011100011010000000100110111011110111110010101000110011011001111001101001110100100001100011011001100000010101100001010011011011111001001011111000101000011011101001111111000010011010101101101011011010101000111000010000110110110110101101111011010111111010111011101001110011100001011111110011010001000000110010010111101001100110010101010111011010010010111010010001110111110110011100001000111100011001010010000001000001001001101000000100101011001000110101110100101010000010011101111110100101110011100001101010011110100010111100100010010000101001110010010111011000111100111001100010001101110101001000110101000000000100111001100011111001001111110000110100001001100101011110010100100000001101000011111! 11! > 11! > 11100101110111101101100001 > > of which I'd recommend not trusting the low dozen or so bits. > > > 2) what is the IEEE 32 bit floating point bit pattern for PI? > > 01000000010010010000111111011011 > > 0 > Sign bit 0, indicating positive. > 10000000 > Excess-127 exponent 128 (unbiased exponent 1, value in [2,4)). > 10010010000111111011011 > Mantissa (1.)10010010000111111011011, rounded up from ...010 10100.... > > > 3) Who is attributed with "God created the integers, all else is the > > work of man"? > > Leopold Kronecker, of Kronecker delta fame, I think it is. > > I'm not entirely sure I agree with it, but then, I'm not sure to what > extent I'm a Platonist, so.... > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From marvin at rain.org Sat Sep 2 15:23:55 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 13:23:55 -0700 Subject: Livermore Swapmeet Message-ID: <44F9E85B.67F89BC0@rain.org> Tomorrow (Sunday) is the monthly Livermore swapmeet, and I'll again be going up there to drop stuff off. I'll have a spot there to get rid of jun^h^h^h stuff and will be in a white Dodge van this time. If you've bought stuff on VCM and will be there, let me know (if you haven't already) and we'll both save the bother and expense of shipping :). From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 2 09:27:24 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 15:27:24 +0100 Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: <000001c6ce26$d3a01280$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <000001c6ce26$d3a01280$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <44F994CC.70808@gjcp.net> Julian Wolfe wrote: > What pisses me off is when stuff like 120v mains hotdog cookers get > mentioned in one topic and it turns into its own. Everyone on this list > should know better than to turn that into a thread. > Well hold on, I *like* the discussions about 120v mains hotdog cookers and things like that. There are people on this list who are twice my age and more who have seen and done many very cool things. Personally I find the discussion of 120v mains hotdog cookers far more interesting and entertaining than yet another endless thread about sticky belts in HP tapes. Let's be honest, most of us wouldn't be that interested in big old computers if we weren't also interested in Geissler tubes, old radios, delicate little mechanisms and stuff that goes bang or zap. It's what the hacker nature is about. I agree that it is offtopic, but there is so little of it compared to the on-topic posts - just the odd flurry now and again. The context that it brings to other discussions is worth a lot, I feel. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 2 10:07:46 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 16:07:46 +0100 Subject: A/UX 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F99E42.8090500@gjcp.net> Al Kossow wrote: >> just curious on what 1.0 looks like > > > http://www.aux-penelope.com/AUX_1.0.htm > > This pre-dates the MAE. Will any version of A/UX run on a Powerbook 180? Gordon. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 2 15:49:06 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 15:49:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) Message-ID: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > We have a winner! (very nicely done!) > It shall be your responsibility to answer for > Andrew B 's > next query topic, and seeing to it that he follows > this. Hehe, I was gonna try and answer the first question, but I admit I had no clue about q's 2 or 3. I don't no what the IEEE format is, but I'd guess it would be Integer, Exponent, Exponent, Exponent? Besides, without a computer (or appropriate calculator) it would have taken ages to work out the binary for question 1 (the initial few bits would have been easy but the rest... urgh!). Also.... in binary with binary points what would the bits be known as that were below the binary point? If we have a value of say 11.111 which would be the first bit (bit 0)? The 2nd one (reading left to right) or the 5th one (far right)? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Sep 2 15:26:58 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 16:26:58 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question Message-ID: > So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a > > C64, > will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like a > 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality to > play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then I'd best > just stick with getting a C64. > > Advice? > > Jay For all intents and purposes the 128 will work as a 64 without incident. What you get with the 128 is faster file processing when used in conjuntion with a RAM expansion and 1571/1581 drives. THe OS is newer so you get BASIC 4 in 128 mode which I find useful. I switch to 64 mode only to play games. The C 128 is the most-used computer in my old computer work. For example, I can use it as a bridge between the B-128 world and the PC world. B128-->IEEE-->sfd-1001-->IEEE/serial adapter-->C128-->1571-->1581- ->720K drive PC-->Internet Bill D From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sat Sep 2 15:46:19 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 22:46:19 +0200 Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: <44F994CC.70808@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 9/2/06 4:27 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > [...] stuff that goes bang or zap. Cue lengthy discussion whether bang is better than zap or vice versa... :-D ,xtG .tsooJ -- Common sense is what tells you the world is flat. -- Joost van de Griek From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sat Sep 2 15:53:12 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 22:53:12 +0200 Subject: A/UX 1.0 In-Reply-To: <44F99E42.8090500@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 9/2/06 5:07 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Will any version of A/UX run on a Powerbook 180? Nope. A/UX only runs on a very specific set of Mac models, none of which portables. From the A/UX FAQ (): > A/UX 3.0 works on the MacII (with PMMU _or_ 68030 upgrade with FDHD ROM's > installed), IIx, IIcx, IIci, IIfx, SE/30, IIsi (with 68882 chip) and the > Quadra 700|900|950 computers. A/UX 3.0.1 (and later) adds support for the > Q800 and Centris Machines (the Centrises _must_ have the real 68040 w/FPU - > See Q&A #G.03). A/UX will run on the Quadra 610 and 650s (recall that A/UX > requires the _real_ 68040 chip!) with a little bit of work: > > You should make a copy of the A/UX Install Boot floppy and then copy the > Enabler for the Q610|650 onto this copy. You then boot up from this floppy > and install A/UX as usual. Finally, you'll need to copy the Q610|650 > Enabler onto the A/UX MacPartition (or whatever MacOS disk you will use > when starting up your Mac and booting A/UX); do this by first booting off > a boot floppy or boot CD and then copy the Enabler over. You do _not_ need > to make any changes to the A/UX System Folder (i.e. the System Folder used > under A/UX). > > A/UX will NOT run on the PowerMacs, any AV machines, any PowerBooks (or > portables), the LCs, the Duos, the ClassicII, the Q605 or on the Quadra > 630... It is recommended that you NOT run A/UX 3.1.1 on the II, IIx, IIcx or > SE/30 machines, since their MacOS-compatibility is unreliable under 3.1.1. ,xtG .tsooJ -- There are only two things that are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. Although I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein -- Joost van de Griek From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 2 16:32:15 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20060902141947.X85434@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Hehe, I was gonna try and answer the first > question, but I admit I had no clue about q's > 2 or 3. I don't no what the IEEE format is, > but I'd guess it would be Integer, Exponent, > Exponent, Exponent? I think that you would enjoy: Schaum's Outline Series : Essential Computer Mathematics by Seymour Lipschutz ISBN:0-07-037990-4 It's a much more comfortable casual read than Rosen, etc. Do you understand 2's complement notation? IEEE floating point has 1 bit for sign (an actual sign bit!, rather than 2's complement), 8 bits for exponent (power of TWO to be multiplied to the mantissa, stored as a "biased" number, NOT sign bit, nor 2's complement) 23 bits for 24 bit mantissa (when normalized, the high order bit is known, and doesn't need to be stored) (Lipschutz has a minor error on that!) > Besides, without a computer (or appropriate > calculator) it would have taken ages to > work out the binary for question 1 (the initial > few bits would have been easy but the rest... > urgh!). with practice, it gets easier, like any other binary conversion > > Also.... in binary with binary points what would > the bits be known as that were below the > binary point? > If we have a value of say 11.111 which would 3.875 3 7/8 If you have CARPENTRY experience, then making .875 out of one half, plus one quarter, plus one eighth becomes more obvious > be the first bit (bit 0)? The 2nd one (reading > left to right) or the 5th one (far right)? There isn't a fixed standard for naming them. Some people use 0 through 7 (or whatever) for the bits to the left of the binary point, and use NEGATIVE numbers for the bits to the right, which keeps the bit "name" matching the power of two. But, not everybody likes to do it that way. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 2 16:38:56 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44F98FD3.4030701@gjcp.net> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> <44F7666C.4020406@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F98FD3.4030701@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Sep 2006, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Interesting. Looking (very quickly) at the Z-machine spec, it seems > fairly simple. This gives me a good excuse to start on my PDP-8 > emulator again - at least that way if I need more core, I just need to > change a #define instead of starting a big long thread about > semiconductor memory ;-) I don't mean to discourage you, but you might be in for more challenge than you bargained for. I asked Brian Moriarty about the feasability of porting a modern Z-machine emulator to 6502 machines such as the Commodore 64 and Apple IIe. He replied that past V3, the abilities of these machines were seriously taxed and that's why Infocom abandoned that class of machines for their later work. The full discussion can be found in the Frotz documentation. Based on this, I don't recommend using Frotz as a starting point. Look instead at ZXZVM, a Z-machine emulator written in Z80 assembly for PCW machines. It should be reasonably easy to port to CP/M and/or ZSDOS. I'd love to see that one for my P112. Doing that may provide enough insight to port it to the PDP8. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 2 17:20:26 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 17:20:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) Message-ID: <200609022220.k82MKQva006029@keith.ezwind.net> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote : > > Hehe, I was gonna try and answer the first > > question, but I admit I had no clue about q's > > 2 or 3. I don't no what the IEEE format is, > > but I'd guess it would be Integer, Exponent, > > Exponent, Exponent? > > I think that you would enjoy: > Schaum's Outline Series : Essential Computer > Mathematics by Seymour > Lipschutz ISBN:0-07-037990-4 > It's a much more comfortable casual read than Rose n, > etc. > Thanks. I'll see if I can find that. > > Do you understand 2's complement notation? > > IEEE floating point has > 1 bit for sign (an actual sign bit!, rather than 2 's > complement), > 8 bits for exponent (power of TWO to be multiplied > to the mantissa, > stored as a "biased" number, NOT sign bit, nor 2's > complement) > 23 bits for 24 bit mantissa (when normalized, the > high order bit is known, > and doesn't need to be stored) (Lipschutz has a > minor error on that!) > Well, I already new about signed and unsigned bytes/numbers. But the rest I don't follow 100% (not sure what mantissa is). I have learnt alot in recent years, some from groups/email lists like this and other stuff from my recently acquired collection of 80 Microcomputing (aka 80 Micro) - I now have issues 1 to 60 (just got the last 40 to get) ;) > > Besides, without a computer (or appropriate > > calculator) it would have taken ages to > > work out the binary for question 1 (the initial > > few bits would have been easy but the rest... > > urgh!). > > with practice, it gets easier, like any other bina ry > conversion > Like lot's of things in life, the more you do it the better/quicker you are a it. > > > > Also.... in binary with binary points what would > > the bits be known as that were below the > > binary point? > > If we have a value of say 11.111 which would > 3.875 3 7/8 > If you have CARPENTRY experience, then making .875 > out of one half, plus > one quarter, plus one eighth becomes more obvious > > be the first bit (bit 0)? The 2nd one (reading > > left to right) or the 5th one (far right)? > > There isn't a fixed standard for naming them. > Some people use 0 through 7 (or whatever) for the > bits to the left of the > binary point, and use NEGATIVE numbers for the bit s > to the right, which > keeps the bit "name" matching the power of two. > But, not everybody likes to do it that way. > That sounds like a sensible way to me. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Sep 2 17:29:57 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 15:29:57 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) References: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> <20060901145001.N39116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44FA05E5.25FA5759@cs.ubc.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > I have never seen a hex number with a > > decimal point anyway... do they exist and/or > > serve a purpose, or was it just a demonstrate > > your point? > > The fanatical purists will insist that it is NOT a "decimal point", > it is a "Hexadecimal point" ("sexadecimal" if not yielding to IBM's > blue-nosed attitudes), "octal point", or "binary point". .. the generalised term is 'radix point'. (not intending to be a fanatical purist) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 2 17:40:26 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609022220.k82MKQva006029@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609022220.k82MKQva006029@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20060902153913.A85434@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > I think that you would enjoy: > > Schaum's Outline Series : Essential Computer > > Mathematics by Seymour > > Lipschutz ISBN:0-07-037990-4 > Thanks. I'll see if I can find that. www.half.com is usually a good place to find books like that From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 2 17:43:09 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 10:43:09 +1200 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44F98FD3.4030701@gjcp.net> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> <44F7666C.4020406@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F98FD3.4030701@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 9/3/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > With the comment about the south pole, on the heating budget for > > the clock, I found out for some reasion penguincentral.com > > is down. Yes. My hosting provider of 10 years, Colossus, vanished without a trace about a week ago. I'm still working on options to bring it back up. > > I was looking for SBC-1620 software and was hopeing to find > > more about the adventure port. I only have a couple of photos of my SBC-6120, and as for software that runs on the Z-machine, I had a couple of tutorials, and my port of Zork, not Adventure. >> Could a older Z-machine engine be ported to the loveable 8? Can? I think so, with some possible pitfalls. > Interesting. Looking (very quickly) at the Z-machine spec, it seems > fairly simple. In principle, I don't see how implementing a v3 Z-machine (128Kbyte max game file) is beyond the capabilities of a PDP-8. I do think that unless one were to require a KT8A and at least 64K words (out of a max possible 128K words), a v5 Z-machine is out of the question (ZDungeon is a z5 file, FWIW). The smallest machine I am aware of with a v5 Z-machine is the Commodore 64. There are several implementations of a v3 Z-machine on 8-bit machines with 32K-48K (Apple II+, TRS-80, and recently, the Elf 2000 (1802 w/32K RAM and ElfOS). The fundamental limitation is available RAM after storing the Z-machine (4Kbytes to 8Kbytes in machine code) and the "impure storage". On small machines, Infocom and others implemented a demand-paged virtual memory scheme for the bulk of the game - all the code fragments and text fragments are swapped in as needed. The variables and objects are dynamic, so they were loaded from disk once then held in memory throughout play. When saving the game, all the Z-machine has to do is write out the impure area to disk. While helping Mike Riley (author of ElfOS) debug "ZRUN". we discovered that with a v3 game and a 32Kbyte machine, after you subtract a few K for resident OS overhead and a few more K for the Z-machine, and many K for impure storage, there was on the order of 2K free for swapping out the fixed bits of the game. With 512 bytes per disk block, that worked out to, I think, 3 game pages at a time. There was _not_ enough free RAM to hold the larger impure storage area of a v5 game, so we came up with a banked memory expansion scheme (to 512Kb with one SRAM chip) that would allow it, but it's obviously not a popular enough design to catch on to a wide enough audience to make the effort of writing a v5 Z-machine more than a personal vanity. If one were to implement a true VM scheme where both pure and impure pages could be read and/or written, then 32K is no longer the boundary it once was, but performance would suffer terribly. Back in the day, on a C-64, it was many seconds between typing a command and getting a response. On machines with a faster disk implementation, the Apple II+, say, it was still a few seconds between prompts. If one were to add in the necessity to write and keep track of impure pages as well, it would be a long wait. Infocom abandoned machines as "small" as the C-64 for later games in favor of the larger and newer machines of the day (Amiga, Mac, PC). An easy choice, in part, because these larger machines could hold an entire 256K max game file in memory, simplifying the internals of the Z-machine and leading to greatly improved performance. As for a v3 Z-machine (that could run the Zork trilogy, Planetfall, Starcross, and many other titles), the hardest thing I can envision would be the constant battle of trying to implement a 16-bit virtual machine on a 12-bit real machine. The pointers in the game code to text and code fragments are 16-bits (that are then extended to 17-bits inside the Z-machine to find the "real" location in the file) and the 256 variables are 16-bit, so you'd have to deal with a lot of 24-bit items to keep track of the elements of the game. Not impossible, but does take a bit of code to do it. The actual opcodes themselves are quite straight foward, even if they typically operate on 16-bit quantities. There are other examples (like dealing with object properties), that make one decide between storage efficiency and code efficiency (v3 objects are 32 settable attribute bits plus three bytes for parent/sibling/child entries, plus variable amounts of "properties", on the order of a few bytes each) - all very 8-bit-multiple-centric. > This gives me a good excuse to start on my PDP-8 > emulator again I'd recommend going with an established (and debugged) emulator. If there's something that simh won't do for you, that's another matter, but it does run OS/8 very well. > - at least that way if I need more core, I just need to > change a #define instead of starting a big long thread about > semiconductor memory ;-) Well... up to 32Kwords that's fine, but above that, you have to implement the KT8A memory management board that allows up to 128Kwords. More than a simple #define. -ethan From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat Sep 2 17:48:14 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 23:48:14 +0100 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44FA0A2E.1040300@gifford.co.uk> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Hehe, I was gonna try and answer the first > question, but I admit I had no clue about q's > 2 or 3. I don't no what the IEEE format is, > but I'd guess it would be Integer, Exponent, > Exponent, Exponent? Um, it's Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, the people who devised the standard for floating-point representation. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 2 17:06:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:06:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609011820420477.05F74272@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 1, 6 06:20:42 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/2/2006 at 1:04 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Again, is there a reason no to? > > Just wondering if I would run afoul of core saturation. Why should you? Think of it this way. If you wound the primary with wire of twice the cross-sectional area, there'd be mo problem, right. Now split that wire into 2 separate strands, conenctinf them together all along their length. It's the same thing (the shape of the wire doesn't matter). Now, since corresponding points on the 2 stands have the same voltage on them (at least to a very good approximation), you can remove the connections without affecting anything, just leaving them joined at the ends. You've now got 2 separate coils in parallel. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 2 17:17:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:17:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: from "Joost van de Griek" at Sep 2, 6 01:36:08 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/1/06 7:37 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > > So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made > > anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if > > the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still > > off topic." > > VMS, UNIX, BSD, Linux, AIX, OS/390, zOS, CP/M, A/UX, Mac OS, OS-9, QNX, > Solaris, IRIX, ... > > All off-topic, now? They're all better than Win95, aren't they? Oh, that's easy to fixe. Juat say anuthing capable of running Windows 95 or _worse_ is off-topic. But there's anohter problem. Any computer with sufficient storage (either RAM or disk space which could simulate RAM) could run an emulator that could then run Windows 95 (or whatever). Sure it may take a couple of years to get to the statup screen, but a PDP11 with some kind of graphical output, or a PERQ, or ... is technuically _capable_ of running sai OS. Of course nobody would suggest doing it, but I'd hate it for all those fine machines to be declared non-classic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 2 17:22:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:22:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 2, 6 11:46:29 am Message-ID: > > Lazy and inexperienced. The math doesn't need to be re-done in other > bases. Bases are an input/output representation only...and as such, Many classic handheld claculators use BCD internally (the HP41 certainly does, for example). And I know of at least one calcuator program (I think for a Palm, but as I don't have the device I can't be sure) that certainly uses BCD artihmetic. So 'bases' migth not just be an I/O thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 2 17:25:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:25:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 2, 6 12:03:36 pm Message-ID: [...] > available. Lacking that, MPSA42 transistors can drive Nixies. The > only real problem is a source of HV, but several people (including > myself) are working on small "canned" HV generator modules which will > be available cheaply. Another way to do it is to use 'back to back' mains transformers. Connect the 'secondary' (which is now used as a primary) of a small mains transformer to the (AC) output of the trnasformer you're using to provide the logic supplies (or to the output of another mains transformer if you're using the SMPSU for the logic). Then rectify or voltage double the output of this extra transformer (the winding that was originally the primary) to get about 200V DC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 2 17:11:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:11:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609020431.AAA20435@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 2, 6 00:29:33 am Message-ID: > > > [...paralleling two primary windings of a transformer...] > > Just make *very* sure you get the phasing right; swap the ends of one > of the primary windings and you have a close approximation to a dead > short across the incoming power feed. Something will blow; if you're > lucky it'll be your mains fuse/breaker rather than the transformer. A useful trick is to connect a 100W mains light bulb in series with the input to the transformer when first applying power (and with the secondaries of the transformer unconnected). Such a bulb will easily handle the magnetising current of a small transformer, anf won't even glow (or drop much voltage), so you can check the output voltages, etc. But if you've got something wired up backwards so you're effectively putting a dead short across the mains, the bulb will limit the current to something reasonable (and tell you of the problem by lighting up). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 2 17:30:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:30:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <200609021815.k82IFoBp013094@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Sep 2, 6 11:15:50 am Message-ID: > > > > If you want 80-column _monochrome_ (which I did for my bench setup since I > > didn't have an RGB monitor handy to test these units with) it's not all that > > hard to make an adapter cable to use. A fair number of different mono > > monitors worked with this. > > Right. Just connect pin 7. If you're saying what I think you're saying, you get composite mono 80 colum vidoe on pin 7 of the DE9 'CGA' monitor connector, right? Some PC CGA cards did the same thing. The original IBM one, of course, had an RCA phono xosket for the compostie output, but some clones didn't, maybe because they provided a printer port as well, and there wasn't room on the bracket for all the connectors. In this case there is often (but not always) compostied video on pin 7 of the DE9 connector. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 2 17:36:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:36:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Sep 2, 6 11:59:26 am Message-ID: > > My idea of the best calculator on the desktop is an HP 9100A/B or 9810, > 9820, or 9830, Wang 720C, IME-86S, or a Tektronix 31. No native octal, > but they can be programmed to do octal math. Well, I don't have the Wang or the Tekky, and my IME is just a 4-function non-progammable thing, but I do still actively use and hack the HPs. My 9820 is non-working at the moment (bought that way on E-bay, the seller was honest about this, and the machine is in great condition otherwise), I've not had time to look at it. Mind you, I am not sure the 9830 counts as a 'calculator', no matter what it says on the case. It programs in BASIC, it's got an alphanumeric display, a few K of program memory, and can link to peripherals (I have the HPIB module in mine). Sure sounds like a computer to me :-) Internally those HP machines are fascinating. The 9100 is probably the most elegant piece of electronices it's ever been my pleasure to work on. The 98x0 machines have an interesting bit-serial processor. Of course you totally ingorne the HP service manual (aka boardswapper guide) when repairing thse machines, in the case of the 98x0s, my first move is to look at the signals on the test connector on th CPU control PCB (09810-66513 IIRC, anyway, brown and orange ejectors) and see what the microcode is doing. -tony From dougcoward at hotmail.com Sat Sep 2 18:13:16 2006 From: dougcoward at hotmail.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 16:13:16 -0700 Subject: commodore 64/128 question Message-ID: Jay, I don't see any record of your original post of this question in the cctalk digest, so I'm switching over to the cctech list. The only post on this subject is Ray's reply today. In reply to your question, I worked on the software for the Quantum Link online service including fast loader disk routines. We gave the C64 a pretty good work out, and the software ran just fine on the C128/1571. The only machine we had problems with was the SX64 where the fast loader would hang shortly after starting a disk load. They hadn't terminated the serial bus correctly which caused some ringing in the lines. But by pressing your finger against the serial bus port connector or by connecting a serial bus cable to the serial port the load would continue and finish. Remember that many pieces of C64 software back then used unimplemented opcodes in their protection schemes. I don't believe that the C128 had any problem with this software. --Doug >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 12:29:13 -0400 >From: Ray Arachelian >Subject: Re: commodore 64/128 question >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Message-ID: <44F9B159.3030204 at arachelian.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >By all means, go for the C128. They're a lot better. >....................... > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 2 18:30:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 16:30:54 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <44FA0A2E.1040300@gifford.co.uk> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA0A2E.1040300@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <200609021630540357.0AB919B0@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 11:48 PM John Honniball wrote: >Um, it's Institute of Electrical and Electronic >Engineers, the people who devised the standard >for floating-point representation. One has to ask "Why?" It seems that mainframes got along just fine for years and years without a "standard". For that matter, does any machine actually carry out computations in IEEE format, or is the situation like the x86 NDP--convert to a higher-precision "internal" format before jiggling bits? Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 2 19:20:37 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:20:37 -0400 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 2, 2006, at 6:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Lazy and inexperienced. The math doesn't need to be re-done in >> other >> bases. Bases are an input/output representation only...and as such, > > Many classic handheld claculators use BCD internally (the HP41 > certainly > does, for example). And I know of at least one calcuator program (I > think > for a Palm, but as I don't have the device I can't be sure) that > certainly uses BCD artihmetic. > > So 'bases' migth not just be an I/O thing. I guess I should've been more specific on my position. It *should* be an I/O thing. Doing arithmetic in BCD is not something I'd thought of...but being inherently tied to decimal, it likely wouldn't be the best choice for the underlying computational engine for a calculator which is supposed to support multiple bases. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 2 19:37:32 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 19:37:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Inside my A600 Message-ID: <200609030037.k830bWZm008728@keith.ezwind.net> --- aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > >> snip << > > Missing item from XU1 - there is an outline (in > white) clearly visible, with small circular metal > marks above and below where the component > should be. The outline looks a bit like this: > ______________________ > |_ | > _) | > |______________________| > > > Anyone have any idea whether this should be > missing or not? Is it possible to get my hands > on the plans (schematics?) for the PCB? > I have since discovered that the component at XU1 was apparently used to correct a timing bug with earlier Gayle revisions, ergo there is no need for it on my PCB. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 2 19:30:24 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 20:30:24 -0400 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609022030.24015.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 September 2006 06:25 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > [...] > Another way to do it is to use 'back to back' mains transformers. Connect > the 'secondary' (which is now used as a primary) of a small mains > transformer to the (AC) output of the trnasformer you're using to provide > the logic supplies (or to the output of another mains transformer if > you're using the SMPSU for the logic). Then rectify or voltage double the > output of this extra transformer (the winding that was originally the > primary) to get about 200V DC. You don't need a voltage doubler to get most of the way there. Peak voltage of a lightly loaded rectifier-filter setup running off "110" (or "115", "117", whatever the case may be -- it seems to be trending higher as time goes on) will normally be up around 170VDC, which is what I keep seeing in circuits that are using Nixies. With enough of a filter capacitor and a light load it won't drop by much, you'll get increased ripple instead as the load goes up, which won't be visible because it's too fast. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Sep 2 19:30:47 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 20:30:47 -0400 Subject: Another C64 Question In-Reply-To: <200609022142.k82LgMUP048283@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060902201811.0208b2d0@mail.degnanco.net> Zane, wcopy+ by CMD is very easy to use. The package containing the program wcopy+ is called "CMD Utilities" WCOPY+ alows me to copy files from the 1571 (as drive 9) to a 720K PC-formatted diskette on a 1581 (as drive 10). I load wcopy+ on drive 8 first, write to a 720K PC formatted diskette in drive 10 (1581 drive). From the 720K disk you can move files to modern computer. WCOPY+ can take advantage of the extra memory of the c128 to do the copy operations faster than a c64. If you have a RAM expansion all the better. Bill D >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:03:37 -0700 >From: "Zane H. Healy" >Subject: Another C64 Question >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >What solutions are people using to get data on and off of their C64's? > >In the past I was able to use my old 486 with a X1541 cable and a >dedicated 1541 drive. I also had a Catweasel in my Amiga (still have >both, but the A3000 is back in its original case with no room for a 5 >1/4" drive, and up in storage), but found it to be less than a >perfect solution, at least at that time. > >I really like the look of a MMC64 (MMC adapter for the 64), but they >seem to be sold out. > > Zane From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Sep 2 19:34:38 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 19:34:38 -0500 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609021630540357.0AB919B0@10.0.0.252> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA0A2E.1040300@gifford.co.uk> <200609021630540357.0AB919B0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/2/2006 at 11:48 PM John Honniball wrote: > >> Um, it's Institute of Electrical and Electronic >> Engineers, the people who devised the standard >> for floating-point representation. > > One has to ask "Why?" It seems that mainframes got along just fine for > years and years without a "standard". For that matter, does any machine > actually carry out computations in IEEE format, or is the situation like > the x86 NDP--convert to a higher-precision "internal" format before > jiggling bits? From the web page of William Kahan's, foremost expert in the IEEE fp standardization effort, a paper frmo 1981 titled: Why do we need a floating-point arithmetic standard? http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/ieee754status/why-ieee.pdf It includes some tables of the features of FP arithmetic of various mainframe architectures, plus some handheld calculators, and the hp-85. Interestingly, it mentions the proposed IEEE standard, as implemented by the intel 8087 and the motorola 6839. It runs 50 pages and I have only glossed it, but it could be a good place to start to answer this question. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Sep 2 20:10:01 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 21:10:01 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> Doug Coward wrote: > > Remember that many pieces of C64 software back then used unimplemented > opcodes in their protection schemes. I don't believe that the C128 had > any problem with this software. They sure did. I saw lots of strange and wonderful things. The GEOS 1.x series used self modifying code on startup to steer you away from figuring out what the code did. Some programs used sync traps which were tracks that had all 1's on them. If you tried to use a copy program, the 1541 or 1571 would seek forever on these tracks. Others used extra sectors, that is two copies of the same sector # on the same track, or missing sectors, or extra tracks past the end of the drive, or even half tracks by half stepping the drive head. All sorts of weird formatting schemes like this were used. The really lame ones just looked for an error. For example, Spy Hunter would do this right after loading itself, by seeking to a track and reading from it. If it got real data it would spit out a message about pirates. But if you opened the drive door at the right moment, you could play the game. :-) There were all sort of weird and wonderful protection schemes, and also there were plenty of copier programs to break or bypass them. It was quite an evolutionary's cesspool. The protection guys would invent something new as soon as their old scheme was broken, so the guys breaking them would get even more creative at building copiers. In the end, I think, the crackers won. I think at one point there was one copier program that would load code into two 1541's and then you could unplug your C64 or C128 from the drives. Then, when you stuck a source disk in drive 8, and a blank in drive 9, it would copy them very quickly over the serial port at high speeds. It's really amazing that the C128 worked as well as it did. It was silly to include CP/M when the PC's were the hot stuff of the day, and certainly, the C64 mode didn't help the C128 mode much. Why write C128 code when you can write for the C64 and it'll run on both. Of course, the C128 was much better at one thing. Since it had the 80 column mode, it was better suited for word processing and also running terminal programs. So there were plenty of those. But not too much for the native C128 mode. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Sep 2 20:13:12 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:13:12 -0500 Subject: A/UX 1.0 Message-ID: <943bf72ac8fc47d7a6bd5a453bd24d0c@valleyimplants.com> Gordon wrote: >will any version of A/UX run on a Powerbook 180? Nope, no Powerbooks, no LCs (including Classics), no 68LC040 machines, no IIs without PMMUs, no AV Macs. Will run on SE/30, II+68851, II(c,f)x, IIci, IIsi, Quadra {700, 800, 900, 950, 650, 610+FPU} Not sure about IIvx, IIvi, Performa 600. Later models needed later versions, 1.x was only II+851, IIx, IIcx, 2.x ran on almost all the IIs (you need the latest 2.x for the fx), 3.x runs on the IIs and Quadras. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Sep 2 20:19:37 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 21:19:37 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> References: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44FA2DA9.8000003@arachelian.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Doug Coward wrote: > >> Remember that many pieces of C64 software back then used unimplemented >> opcodes in their protection schemes. I don't believe that the C128 had >> any problem with this software. >> > They sure did. I saw lots of strange and wonderful things. The GEOS > Oops, I just realized that I made this very unclear! "They sure did" refers to unimplemented opcode use, which worked just fine on the C128. This wasn't meant to say that the C128 had problems with unimplemented opcodes. Or rather, we should say undocumented opcodes as they were clearly implemented. If you look closely at the 6502 opcode chart patterns there are some missing ones, these are actually there, but they were buggy in early 6500 series CPU's, so they were purposefully not documented. Certain folks saw the patterns and recognized that there should have been opcodes there and tried them, they worked. So they used them to prevent reverse engineering. :-) From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 2 20:33:19 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 18:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Sep 2, 6 11:30:53 pm" Message-ID: <200609030133.k831XKrG014268@floodgap.com> > > Right. Just connect pin 7. > > If you're saying what I think you're saying, you get composite mono 80 > colum vidoe on pin 7 of the DE9 'CGA' monitor connector, right? Yes, sorry, that's what I was referring to. :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Good times, noodle salad. -- "As Good As It Gets" -------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 2 20:35:55 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 18:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: from B Degnan at "Sep 2, 6 04:26:58 pm" Message-ID: <200609030135.k831Ztji016912@floodgap.com> > BASIC 4 in 128 mode ITYM BASIC 7.0. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Furious activity is no substitute for understanding. -- H. H. Williams ----- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 2 20:50:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 18:50:14 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA0A2E.1040300@gifford.co.uk> <200609021630540357.0AB919B0@10.0.0.252> <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 7:34 PM Jim Battle wrote: >Why do we need a floating-point arithmetic standard? > >http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/ieee754status/why-ieee.pdf > >It includes some tables of the features of FP arithmetic of various >mainframe architectures, plus some handheld calculators, and the hp-85. > Interestingly, it mentions the proposed IEEE standard, as implemented >by the intel 8087 and the motorola 6839. I started reading this--and then realized that I'd seen this before--20 years ago! I wasn't happy with it then, and my feelings still haven't changed much. Boiled down to it's basic message "because it's somewhat better for portability" didn't do much for me back then and does even less for me now, when the choice of deployment architectures seems to have boiled down to a precious few. What the IEEE standard doesn't address--and this is where most numerical programmers get their shorts in a twist is the differences used in computation of the transcendental functions. Some implementations are really good--and some, such as that on S/360 FORTRAN IV is horrible. AFAIK, Lawrence Livermore didn't use ANY vendor's math function pack, but wrote their own and deployed it on all of their machines--and it was much better than anything they could buy. My run-in with IEEE occurred when I was on contract to Sorcim. They wanted a math pack for Pascal/MT; they subsequently worked the same package into SuperCalc. Af first, they wanted everything--all calculations--in BCD floating point, because "money people" supposedly didn't trust computation that wasn't integer or decimal. So, I gave them a floating-point package and math library all implemented in x80 code in BCD. I wasn't proud of it. Along comes the PC and Lotus 1-2-3 and Sorcim determines that they want to put a PC-based product out there--and it should use the 8087 if available. I think I went a little nuts when I was asked if computation could also be done in IEEE floating-point format but generate exactly the same answers that the old BCD package did. I finally compromised by getting them to skip the IEEE bit and just keep intermediate results around in the 8087 extended format, converting to BCD floating point only when necessary. Why the big to-do about IEEE format? Because it was a "standard"--nothing more or less. I even think that I cited the above paper to show that the deal behind IEEE was portability; something that they'd never have to deal with. Grumble. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 2 20:51:45 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:51:45 -0400 Subject: A/UX 1.0 References: <943bf72ac8fc47d7a6bd5a453bd24d0c@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <008301c6cefb$82f70de0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Quinn" To: Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 9:13 PM Subject: Re: A/UX 1.0 > > > Gordon wrote: > > >will any version of A/UX run on a Powerbook 180? > > Nope, no Powerbooks, no LCs (including Classics), no 68LC040 machines, > no IIs without PMMUs, no AV Macs. > > Will run on SE/30, II+68851, II(c,f)x, IIci, IIsi, Quadra {700, 800, 900, 950, 650, 610+FPU} > Not sure about IIvx, IIvi, Performa 600. > > Later models needed later versions, 1.x was only II+851, IIx, IIcx, 2.x ran on almost all the IIs (you need the > latest 2.x for the fx), 3.x runs on the IIs and Quadras. > > I think you need the Apple Nubus or PDS adapter on the IIsi to be able to run A/UX (since that adapter included the FPU). From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 2 20:58:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 18:58:32 -0700 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609021858320226.0B404102@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 11:11 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >A useful trick is to connect a 100W mains light bulb in series with the >input to the transformer when first applying power (and with the >secondaries of the transformer unconnected). Such a bulb will easily >handle the magnetising current of a small transformer, anf won't even >glow (or drop much voltage), so you can check the output voltages, etc. Hmmm, the way I'd do is to hook up one winding to the mains, then tie one lead of the second winding to either side of the mains supply and measure the voltage between the other lead and the other side of the mains supply. If correctly phased, the voltage difference will be closer to 0 than 2xmains. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 2 21:58:49 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 22:58:49 -0400 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609022258.49342.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 September 2006 09:50 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/2/2006 at 7:34 PM Jim Battle wrote: > >Why do we need a floating-point arithmetic standard? > > > >http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/ieee754status/why-ieee.pdf > > > >It includes some tables of the features of FP arithmetic of various > >mainframe architectures, plus some handheld calculators, and the hp-85. > > Interestingly, it mentions the proposed IEEE standard, as implemented > >by the intel 8087 and the motorola 6839. > > I started reading this--and then realized that I'd seen this before--20 > years ago! I wasn't happy with it then, and my feelings still haven't > changed much. Boiled down to it's basic message "because it's somewhat > better for portability" didn't do much for me back then and does even less > for me now, when the choice of deployment architectures seems to have > boiled down to a precious few. > > What the IEEE standard doesn't address--and this is where most numerical > programmers get their shorts in a twist is the differences used in > computation of the transcendental functions. Some implementations are > really good--and some, such as that on S/360 FORTRAN IV is horrible. > AFAIK, Lawrence Livermore didn't use ANY vendor's math function pack, but > wrote their own and deployed it on all of their machines--and it was much > better than anything they could buy. I'm not at all up on the details of the differences between different representations of floating point numbers, and I fully realize that there _are_ differences and that there are tradeoffs -- just like with any other bit of engineering. And to "standardize" on one particular implementation without allowing for any choices and without allowing for how other choices might be better in some situations strikes me as being a really bad idea. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 2 22:01:59 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 23:01:59 -0400 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609021858320226.0B404102@10.0.0.252> References: <200609021858320226.0B404102@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609022301.59779.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 September 2006 09:58 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/2/2006 at 11:11 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >A useful trick is to connect a 100W mains light bulb in series with the > >input to the transformer when first applying power (and with the > >secondaries of the transformer unconnected). Such a bulb will easily > >handle the magnetising current of a small transformer, anf won't even > >glow (or drop much voltage), so you can check the output voltages, etc. > > Hmmm, the way I'd do is to hook up one winding to the mains, then tie one > lead of the second winding to either side of the mains supply and measure > the voltage between the other lead and the other side of the mains supply. > If correctly phased, the voltage difference will be closer to 0 than > 2xmains. This is correct. But the light bulb as a current limiter is a very handy thing to have, in any case. If you have a transformer that's developed a short, for example, or some load is connected to it while you're testing, or a rectifier turns out to be shorted, or all sorts of other things. I built myself a little box that uses a center-off DPDT switch to select whether that light bulb is inline with the outlet in the box or not. And I also have a set of binding posts connected across that switch, which is labeled "Bypass/Meter/Limit" for no limit, measuring current with the meter, or using the light bulb to limit it. This sort of thing is very handy when you're working on, say, solid-state audio amplifiers, and you've just replaced a whole set of blown output devices and want to find out if anything else is bad without blowing them again. Stuff like that. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 2 22:47:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 20:47:51 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609022258.49342.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> <200609022258.49342.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> Another silly mental ramble. I'm going to show my age by wondering if calling "scientific notation" "floating point" is just something we've learned to do without thinking too hard about it. But it seems to me that there's a diffference. Suppose I have a numeric field and it's 10 decimal digits wide (think of a cheap calculator display). If I position a decimal point anywhere within the 10 digit field, I can represent some nonzero numbers between 9 999 999 999 and .000 000 000 1 (if my model allows for a sign, I can also represent the same number of negative values). Note that the number of magnitudes I can represent is finite: exactly 10^11, including zero. (Also note that there are 10 possible representations of positive zero) This is what used to be meant by "floating point" in the old days--and I suspect that some modern embedded systems still use a type of this to save on cycles and space. Scientific notation (where an exponent is kept separately) on the other hand, can express a much greater number of values because the point is not restricted to +/-10 digits either side of the units' position. So why do we persist in calling it "floating point"? Another common mistake is hearing someone refer to a number as being "fixed point" when what's really meant is "integer". True, all integers can be expressed as fixed-point numbers, but not all fixed-point numbers can be expressed as integers. Please forgive the musing. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Sep 2 22:43:31 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <20060902125916.L84508@shell.lmi.net> References: <200609012154.k81Lso6R074102@keith.ezwind.net> <20060901145001.N39116@shell.lmi.net> <200609020416.AAA20329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060902125916.L84508@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609030348.XAA26163@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > We have a winner! (very nicely done!) Thank you, thank you! > Are the details of the Pentium 1's FDIV problem on-topic? I don't know, but I don't know a thing about them - well, except that I can dig out a specific test case from certain open-source OS kernels, which auto-detect it at boot time. > I wish that down-sizing hadn't taken away teaching the computer math > class! It's not classes that I learnt this stuff from. It's from hacking around with it for umpty-ump years. (For example, I once did a PDP-11 emulator that did floating point, and getting the floating point right without depending on the host's floating-point implementation demanded a fair bit of research and thought.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brain at jbrain.com Sat Sep 2 22:56:25 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 22:56:25 -0500 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <200609021300.44988.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609020323.k823LHBK030646@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8B589B34-75CB-4071-A7D2-ECDE7EB4B14B@mac.com> <200609021300.44988.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44FA5269.1050709@jbrain.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > People should also be aware of the misleading stuff in the way the speed of > that part is presented. They called it "a 4 MHz Z80" but even though it was > indeed that chip the way they had it configured in there was so tightly > coupled with the rest of the system that it only ran some of the time, > rather than all of the time, giving an effective clock rate of somewhere > around 2.5 MHz. > Misleading it was, though we should assign blame to the Marketing folks. When the C128 was being developed, Marketing wanted to hit the business market (they had tried to position the Plus/4 there and failed). Someone remember the old C64 CP/M cartridge and decided to play that up (the C128 was C64 compatible, they reasoned, so the CP/M cart could be used to offer CP/M support). The problem was, the CP/M cart sucked, and would only work on the earliest models of the C64. It was a direct copy of the Apple CP/M cart, according to some reports, but didn;t take into account the specifics of the C64 expansion port. Brian Bagnall documents the specifics in his book, but in general, Bil Herd got the CP/M cart to work by "accidentally" designing the Z80 into the motherboard. However, as the design-in was accidental, there was little time (or ability) to do a proper design-in. If it had been a sanctioned design, the full 4MHz would have been offered (and probably more), but CBM was cheap, and Bil was trying to hit a mandated requirement, not a speedy CP/M design. Although the book does not document it, I think Bil had to fight tooth and nail to keep the accidental work in place. However, as Bil later notes, the Z80 ended up saving the CBM bacon, as it was used to deal with badly misbehaving cartridges that did funky things with the C64 MMU lines, which the C128 could not deal with on machine startup. Thus, the Z80 actually starts the C128 up, and then passes control to the 8502 (6502/10 compatible) CPU. Jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Sep 2 22:48:18 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200609030429.AAA11947@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I don't no what the IEEE format is, but I'd guess it would be > Integer, Exponent, Exponent, Exponent? As I think someone else mentioned, IEEE there stands for the (US) Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, the standards body responsible for the format. An IEEE floating-point number consists of three parts: a sign bit, an exponent field, and a mantissa field, normally stored in that order. I know of two common formats, 32-bit format and 64-bit format; I don't know whether the standard defines any others, but it's a fairly easy format to extend to other sizes. The sign bit is always one bit, and is 0 for positive and 1 for negative. (It's a sign-magnitude format; unlike the 2's-complement that's now nigh universal for integers, negating a number here involves nothing but flipping the sign bit.) The exponent field is variable size. For 32-bit it's 8 bits; for 64-bit, 11. This exponent field is what's called `biased'. A number N>0 can always be written as N = M * (2^E) for M in [1,2) and some integer E. IEEE format stores not E but E+K, where K depends on the size of the exponent field, such that E=0 corresponds to the exponent field having high bit 0 and its other bits all 1. For 32-bit, for example, this means that E=0 corresponds to an exponent field of 01111111, or 127 decimal; this is sometimes called "excess-127". An exponent field of all 0 bits or all 1 bits is special; I'll mention this more below. If a number calls for an E value that's out of range, that number is not representible (except for certain very small numbers; see below). The mantissa field is also variable size, and occupies the balance of the bits. Because M is >=1 and <2, it is of the form 1.xxxx... when written in binary. The high bit thus carries no information; they get one more bit of precision by not actually storing it. For example, the number 3 corresponds to E=1 and M=1.1 (that M value being in binary); the M value stored in the number is 100000...000, the 1 bit before the binary point being the non-stored bit (often called the hidden bit). Because the hidden bit is hidden, it is not available to distinguish between a nonzero number that's a power of two and a number that's zero. I mentioned above that an exponent field of all 0 bits was special. One of the things it's used for is representing zero: zero is represented with all its bits - sign, exponent, and mantissa - 0. This leaves a number of possible conditions unspecified: any bit pattern with all exponent bits zero but some other bits set has no defined meaning according to the above. I'm a little hazy on exactly what's what for them. Part of this is because I also know another floating-point format - VAX format - well, and it is very similar to the above, differing only in its treatment of these "exceptional" cases (and its lack of the all-1-bit-exponent special case). It's been too long since I looked at either; the details are blurring together in my memory. In VAX format, I think any bit pattern with sign and exponent bits zero represents zero; any bit pattern with sign bit 1 and exponent bits 0 is a "reserved operand", which the floating point unit raises an exception when asked to do anything with. In IEEE format, there are denormalized numbers, which are numbers for which the non-stored ("hidden") bit is 0, not 1; I *think* these are all bit patterns with exponent bits zero, and they correspond to the above for values of E too small to represent with nonzero bits in the exponent field. These account for all the other bit patterns with exponent bits all 0. This leaves exponent fields of all 1s. IEEE format has other values, notably infinities and NaNs; all-1 exponent fields represent them. Positive infinity is exponent field all 1, sign bit 0, mantissa all 0; negative infinity is the same but with sign bit 1. I infer that NaNs are any pattern with exponent bits 1 and mantissa bits not all 0. (There is a distinction between "quiet NaNs" and "signaling NaNs"; while I don't really know, I suspect this is done with the sign bit. A signaling NaN is like a VAX reserved operand; a quiet NaN is similar, except that it simply results in another NaN when you do something for which its exact value would matter. It disappears when you do things like multiply it by zero, though.) Infinity is used to represent values that are actually infinite, such as dividing any nonzero number by zero, and values that, while not theoretically deserving to be called infinite, overflow the available number range, such as 1e200*1e200. There is a negative infinity as well; this is a conventional number line, not a projective line with only one point at infinity. "NaN" stands for "Not a Number" and represents something that does not exist on the real line at all; they normally indicate uninitialized data that happens to contain such a bit pattern, but can be generated by some operations, such as 0/0, sqrt(-1), or adding infinities of opposite signs. This concludes today's class on floating point. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Sep 2 23:34:12 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 00:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609022301.59779.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609021858320226.0B404102@10.0.0.252> <200609022301.59779.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609030438.AAA12015@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I built myself a little box that uses a center-off DPDT switch to > select whether that light bulb is inline with the outlet in the box > or not. My father built himself a board which was similar but more elaborate: he could select among (1) a small (7.5W?) light bulb, (2) a large (100W?) light bulb, (3) a high-wattage heating element that was still under the breaker trip current for that mains circuit (an iron, I think), or (4) no limiter at all. If I did much work where such a thing were useful, I probably would have put together something similar myself. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Sep 2 23:39:54 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 00:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> <200609022258.49342.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609030441.AAA12048@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Scientific notation (where an exponent is kept separately) on the > other hand, can express a much greater number of values because the > point is not restricted to +/-10 digits either side of the units' > position. So why do we persist in calling it "floating point"? Because it *is*. It differs from your other example (which I cut) in that the point can float over a much wider range, and it stores only some small (compared to the size of that range) number of digits where the point floats to. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 3 00:10:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 22:10:40 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609030441.AAA12048@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> <200609022258.49342.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> <200609030441.AAA12048@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200609022210400848.0BF02871@10.0.0.252> on 9/3/2006 at 12:39 AM der Mouse wrote: >Because it *is*. It differs from your other example (which I cut) in >that the point can float over a much wider range, and it stores only >some small (compared to the size of that range) number of digits where >the point floats to. I know I'm splitting hairs, but a cheap 4-banger calculator displays numbers in floating point. A more expensive "scientific calculator" displays in "scientific notation". It used to be that commercial business types were paranoid about scientific notation and one HAD to implement floating point the way I described. The term for what everyone calls "floating point" is really "scientific notation". In fact, outside of a rather narrow range, it's displayed as such; e.g. x.xxxxEyy. Dig up any high-school science text where the notion of scientific notation is introduced--it's never called "floating point". The distinction is small, but it's there. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Sep 3 00:16:10 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 01:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609022210400848.0BF02871@10.0.0.252> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> <200609022258.49342.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> <200609030441.AAA12048@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200609022210400848.0BF02871@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609030524.BAA12267@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Because it *is* [floating point]. It differs from your other >> example (which I cut) in that the point can float over a much wider >> range, and it stores only some small (compared to the size of that >> range) number of digits where the point floats to. > I know I'm splitting hairs, but a cheap 4-banger calculator displays > numbers in floating point. Yes. > A more expensive "scientific calculator" displays in "scientific > notation". ...which is compact representation of floating-point values in base ten, optimized for cases where the precision is small compared to the distance the point floats from the exponent=0 position. Yes. > The term for what everyone calls "floating point" is really > "scientific notation". I don't think so. Scientific notation, as I learnt the term, is rather specifically mantissa-and-exponent notation *in base ten*. > In fact, outside of a rather narrow range, it's displayed as such; > e.g. x.xxxxEyy. Yes. So? It's also displayed in decimal, and `what everyone calls "floating point"' is actually in binary. I don't think the display representation is a useful argument. > Dig up any high-school science text where the notion of scientific > notation is introduced--it's never called "floating point". That's (a) to leverage the societal prestige of "science" and (b) because high-school students do not generally have the mathematical sophistication to understand what "floating point" means, whereas "scientific notation" is immediately understandable to mean "a/the notation used by science". > The distinction is small, but it's there. Perhaps. But what you seem to think it is is not what I think it is. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Sep 3 00:45:10 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 22:45:10 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> <200609022258.49342.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FA6BE6.70600@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Another silly mental ramble. > > I'm going to show my age by wondering if calling "scientific notation" > "floating point" is just something we've learned to do without thinking too > hard about it. But it seems to me that there's a diffference. > > Suppose I have a numeric field and it's 10 decimal digits wide (think of a > cheap calculator display). If I position a decimal point anywhere within > the 10 digit field, I can represent some nonzero numbers between 9 999 999 > 999 and .000 000 000 1 (if my model allows for a sign, I can also represent > the same number of negative values). Note that the number of magnitudes I > can represent is finite: exactly 10^11, including zero. (Also note that > there are 10 possible representations of positive zero) This is what used > to be meant by "floating point" in the old days--and I suspect that some > modern embedded systems still use a type of this to save on cycles and > space. > > Scientific notation (where an exponent is kept separately) on the other > hand, can express a much greater number of values because the point is not > restricted to +/-10 digits either side of the units' position. So why do > we persist in calling it "floating point"? Because the point truly *does* "float". In your 10 digit calculator example, as numbers get smaller, you *lose* "resolution" (avoiding terms like "precision"). E.g., 3.999999999 / 10000000000 = .000000003 (assuming I've counted decimals correctly). In a floating point representation, this would be .39999999999 (-10) -- no loss of "resolution" (again, this is really the wrong choice of words but easier to show). The point moves TO REMAIN WITH the significant digits. (N.B. the number of "different values" that FP can represent is X times the number of equivalent fixed point values that can be represented -- where X reflects the range of exponents supported) Also, note that in some circles, "scientific notation" is restricted to specifying exponents that are multiples of 3. And, "floating point" also deals with issues that can't be expressed in your calculator *or* scientific notation. Notably, NaN's, gradual underflow, infinities (as well as how infinities are treated), etc. Some implementations support the concept of +0 and -0. > Another common mistake is hearing someone refer to a number as being "fixed > point" when what's really meant is "integer". True, all integers can be > expressed as fixed-point numbers, but not all fixed-point numbers can be > expressed as integers. Nor can a particular fixed-point implementation necessarily represent *any* integers. > Please forgive the musing. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Sep 3 00:48:04 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 22:48:04 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200609022210400848.0BF02871@10.0.0.252> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> <200609022258.49342.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> <200609030441.AAA12048@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200609022210400848.0BF02871@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FA6C94.10006@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > on 9/3/2006 at 12:39 AM der Mouse wrote: > >> Because it *is*. It differs from your other example (which I cut) in >> that the point can float over a much wider range, and it stores only >> some small (compared to the size of that range) number of digits where >> the point floats to. > > I know I'm splitting hairs, but a cheap 4-banger calculator displays > numbers in floating point. No. The cheap calculator does fixed point math and moves the point accordingly. It freely discards digits when the point can not be shifted any further within the display (or, resorts to displaying "0." or "FLASHING ERROR" to indicate it's failure to deal with the operation requested). > A more expensive "scientific calculator" > displays in "scientific notation". It used to be that commercial business > types were paranoid about scientific notation and one HAD to implement > floating point the way I described. > > The term for what everyone calls "floating point" is really "scientific > notation". In fact, outside of a rather narrow range, it's displayed as > such; e.g. x.xxxxEyy. Dig up any high-school science text where the > notion of scientific notation is introduced--it's never called "floating > point". > > The distinction is small, but it's there. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 3 01:36:49 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:36:49 -0700 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <200609021300.44988.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609020323.k823LHBK030646@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8B589B34-75CB-4071-A7D2-ECDE7EB4B14B@mac.com> <200609021300.44988.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 1:00 PM -0400 9/2/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > I also really want to setup an Apple // of some sort, most likely a // >> > gs, but there is the same problem. > >Hm, I just happen to have a IIgs system I'm not doing anything with... > >> > I need to find a really good excuse to set up one or the other, and >> > so far I haven't found one. >> > >> > Zane Trust me, lack of systems isn't my problem. I have 1 //+, 2-3 //e's, 2-3 //c's, and 2 //gs's (including one with SCSI) :^) Lack of space (and time) is my problem. >Back in the day when I worked on a lot of this stuff, I saw a fair number of >both CP/M boxes and c= stuff, and one time did actually take a few minutes >and boot CP/M on a 128/1571 combo. It ran, and I was able to take some of >the software that I was used to running on other platforms and run it there, >but I was not all that impressed with the way it ran-- it was slow. I've had it running on my C128, I wasn't that impressed either. If I want to run CP/M, I'll break out my Kaypro II. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 3 02:20:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 00:20:31 -0700 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <44FA6C94.10006@dakotacom.net> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <44FA231E.6060204@pacbell.net> <200609021850140876.0B38AA55@10.0.0.252> <200609022258.49342.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> <200609030441.AAA12048@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200609022210400848.0BF02871@10.0.0.252> <44FA6C94.10006@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200609030020310569.0C670835@10.0.0.252> On 9/2/2006 at 10:48 PM Don wrote: >No. The cheap calculator does fixed point math and moves the >point accordingly. Calculators call this a "floating decimal point". Just do a web search on it. >And, "floating point" also deals with issues that can't be >expressed in your calculator *or* scientific notation. > Notably, NaN's, gradual underflow, infinities (as well as >how infinities are treated), etc. Some implementations >support the concept of +0 and -0. Just values called out that have predefined meanings. We could do the same thing with my calculator-type math example by calling +/-9 999 999 999 "infinite" and +/-9 999 999 998 "NaN". If you express my little calculator as a exponent+mantissa model with an exponent range of 10^0 to 10^10, there isn't a whole heckuva lot of difference--the range is the same. I would submit that "scientific notation" begins where the exponent range exceeds the number of significant digits in the mantissa. On one's complement machines, like the CDC 6000/7000, not only do you have +/- 0 in the (integers as well as "floating point"), but you also have +/- infinite and +/- indefinite (what you moderns call NaN). There were special cases when nonzero mantissae were present with any of the "reserved" exponents. The CDC did not implement an integer multiply instruction. However, it did allow recovery of the lower 48 bits of a 48*48 bit floating point multiply (it did not normalize the result). So, you just packed the upper 12 bits of both integers with the equivalent of a zero exponent and did a double-precision FP multiply. If you needed the high-order 48 bits, you added an unnormalized single-precision multiply to recover it. Likewise, there was no integer divide. The common dodge was to pack, normalize and then FP divide, then unpack and shift the result--very slow on the lower 6000. So, when a divide of an integer by a constant was needed, you'd DP multiply by (2^47 / constant) +1 to get your quotient. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 2 19:18:01 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 01:18:01 +0100 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44F9A6A3.2000404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> <44F7666C.4020406@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F98FD3.4030701@gjcp.net> <44F9A6A3.2000404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44FA1F39.6070700@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Interesting. Looking (very quickly) at the Z-machine spec, it seems >> fairly simple. This gives me a good excuse to start on my PDP-8 >> emulator again - at least that way if I need more core, I just need to >> change a #define instead of starting a big long thread about >> semiconductor memory ;-) > > Oddly I think the world has more than ample simple PDP-8 emulators. > SimH is the only one I trust to have most of the 'bugs' and 'un-documented' > features of a real machine. Yes, but where's the fun in that? Part of the reason I started to write a PDP-8 emulator was to see how it all worked - I'm on the third complete scratch rewrite, and each time I throw it all away and begin again I gain another insight into how to do it better. Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 3 05:11:24 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 10:11:24 +0000 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> References: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> Ray Arachelian wrote: > There were all sort of weird and wonderful protection schemes, and also > there were plenty of copier programs to break or bypass them. It was > quite an evolutionary's cesspool. The protection guys would invent > something new as soon as their old scheme was broken, so the guys > breaking them would get even more creative at building copiers. In the > end, I think, the crackers won. I'd quite like to see those documented somewhere - not just for CBM machines, but in the context of any system. I bet there were all sorts of oddball copy protection schemes around, and it'd be interesting to see details of some of them scribbled down (as you've just done so nicely!) cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 3 07:10:58 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 08:10:58 -0400 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <44F99168.9070306@gjcp.net> References: <200608310827.JAA19962@citadel.metropolis.local> <200608311903.36801.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F99168.9070306@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20060903121058.34D2DBA4172@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Thursday 31 August 2006 04:27 am, Stan Barr wrote: > >> Roy J. Tellason said: > >>> Anybody having any vacuum tubes they don't want, I might be interested. > >>> I can't offer much of anything for them, but if they're gonna get > >>> tossed... Just as a benchmark, if you're buying random new-old-stock (still new in boxes) tubes in quantity, do not expect to pay more than a few pennies per tube (and even then that might be too much!) Random used tubes should be available for free. > >> Just for informational purposes: 12AU7s (and 12AX7 and 12AT7) are still > >> available new. You probably won't like the price, but they're still in > >> production - us electric guitar players use them, > > > > Along with 6L6 and maybe 5U4 and some other numbers for output tubes, no > > doubt. To get that "Marshall sound"... :-) > > Well if it's the "Marshall sound" it should be ECC83s and EL34s, not > this American stuff. All those tubes are way above the random price guides I attempt to categorize above, and you can easily hit many tens of dollars or sometimes hundreds of dollars each, with extremely wide variance on brand and subdetails of construction. Tim. From ray at arachelian.com Sun Sep 3 07:47:30 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 08:47:30 -0400 Subject: A/UX 1.0 In-Reply-To: <008301c6cefb$82f70de0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <943bf72ac8fc47d7a6bd5a453bd24d0c@valleyimplants.com> <008301c6cefb$82f70de0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44FACEE2.4040906@arachelian.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > I think you need the Apple Nubus or PDS adapter on the IIsi to be able to > run A/UX (since that adapter included the FPU). > Alternatively, most internal cards for the IIsi, such as an Ethernet card, had a socket for the FPU. I recently purchased an FPU for my IIsi off ebay for about $30, just for the purpose of getting A/UX on it. Haven't had time to actually install A/UX on it, but it's on the pile of projects to play with. :-) (Of course the IIsi itself these days is probably worth $30, but it'll be fun to play with A/UX.) From ray at arachelian.com Sun Sep 3 08:19:05 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 09:19:05 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I'd quite like to see those documented somewhere - not just for CBM > machines, but in the context of any system. I bet there were all sorts > of oddball copy protection schemes around, and it'd be interesting to > see details of some of them scribbled down (as you've just done so > nicely!) I distinctly remember that there was a book on how to program the 1541 in order to do exactly this, and had lots of examples. I unfortunately never owned it. I found it, at the time, in of all places, the Queens Public Library. I tried to re-check it out several times, but the Library wouldn't let me hold it any longer than about 2 cycles. :-) It had lots of code examples and such as to how to call the various track and sector format routines, so you could seek to a specific track (or half track) and then write the wrong track ID, or the wrong sector for example. I believe it was written by one of the guys that made one of the fancy copiers. Perhaps qcopy (not sure of the name) or the Basement Boys... wish I could remember the name of the book. :-( There's some stuff here: " http://rittwage.com/c64pp/dp.php?pg=protection " and " http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/cbm/docs/ " about these topics. There's also some interesting stuff here: " http://www.geocities.com/profdredd/cprogram/cprogram.html " I remember playing with the code in this book and forcing the 1541 to seek past track #45. When you did this, the 1541 would emit a loud clunk and then your drive head would be stuck. You'd have to take the 1541 apart and move the head manually. It might have been that same book or another, but it had info as to how to tweak the motor speed of the 1541 with a fluorescent light. The motor had lines on it which would appear to be stopped under the light of a fluorescent source at either 50 or 60Hz. (There were two rings of lines, one for US, and one for Europe.) There was also a pot on the 1541 board that you could tweak to control the motor speed. Another thing I ran into with the 1541 was that a (diode) bridge commonly blew out. The symptom of this was that the power LED would flicker at 30Hz when this happened. I couldn't find the right bridge at my local Rat Shack at the time, so after figuring out which of the 4 diodes in the bridge died, I found a large diode and soldered it to the pins of the bridge.) That bridge was a single component, not 4 diodes, but it was an easy repair. The diode wasn't quite right, so it didn't last very long, but it was a very easy repair, so I just repeated it. :-) A few other tricks at the time, it was possible to get stereo sound out of both the C128 and the C64 by taking another SID chip (these were expensive at the time ~$30-$50), and bend a couple of the pins. One was an address pin, the other was the sound out pin. You could then place the new SID chip right smack ontop of the existing one (piggy-back), solder a wire to the sound out pin and you got stereo. Another trick was if you had a tape drive, you could use it as a very crappy 1 bit audio digitizer. This didn't work all that well, but it was something. Later someone wrote an article (in RUN Magazine perhaps?) about getting a serial A->D converter. Was a little 8 pin chip that you could attach to the CIA's shift register to read the values off. Another trick was that if you had the Pet Emulator (which wasn't a real emulator, it just reshuffled video memory around to match the 4032's memory map for video), and attached a small speaker to one of the pins of the CIA which was the shift register output (I think this might have been like CB1 or CB2 or something like that), you could also get Pet like sound, but you'd have the change the poke addresses around to match the CIA's. Was useful for all those old Pet games. :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 3 10:07:58 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 08:07:58 -0700 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> References: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> Message-ID: At 9:19 AM -0400 9/3/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: >I distinctly remember that there was a book on how to program the 1541 >in order to do exactly this, and had lots of examples. I unfortunately Could this be something like "Programming the 1541"? I tried Google, but only came up with "Anatomy of the 1541 Drive" by abacus. I might have the book you're talking about as I'm pretty sure I have a 3rd party book in storage that is specifically on the 1541 (probably the second title since I think it's from Abacus). While a large part of my documentation has been donated to the Historical Resource Center, I'm hanging onto the C64 and Apple // doc's for the time being. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Sep 3 10:26:58 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 08:26:58 -0700 Subject: Scanning "Results" Message-ID: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> Hi, I spent a few hours last night playing with different scanning options and figured I would share my observations. Definitely not a "scientific experiment" but, rather, "just tinkering". Image in question was just a page of text -- probably 8-10pt. Laid out in two columns, quite a bit of whitespace. The original image dimensions are about 8.5x12" (yes, 12, not 11). [Sorry, in retrospect I should have used an 8.5x11 image as this would be easier for most folks to relate to :< Instead, I just set the scanner to scan half the available area (it's a B-size scanner)] First, I did a monochrome scan at 400dpi (which is where I tend to do most of my scans). The resulting TIFF file was 2MB. When viewed "on screen", the TIFF file (i.e., eliminating any effects of the scanner software) was quite readable. No signs of jaggies, etc. I ran that image through various compressors (still sticking with TIFF). "Packed bits" yielded a file size of 360K -- as did Huffman encoding. LZW dropped this to 220K. CCITT3-1D encoding dropped it to 217K while CCITT3-2D brought it down to 131K. And, CCITT4 brought it down to 100K. I then ran the same image at 800dpi (what the heck, let's live dangerously!!). As expected, the original TIFF grew to 8M. The CCITT4 variant grew to 250K. (I didn't bother with all the other encodings as these two represent the aparent extremes of monochrome representations *EASILY* AVAILABLE TO ME). Next, I scanned the same image at 400dpi in *color*. A 24 bit TIFF took a whopping 55MB. (can you say, "Sorry, but we don't got no bananas..."). I then tried to save the image as a JPEG -- *guessing* at appropriate compression/smoothing factors to get the resulting image size down to ~1MB. (for reference, ASSUMING THESE "settings" ARE PORTABLE, 4:2:2, 77 compression, 10 smoothing, optimized but NOT progressive). I got lucky (?) and this first pass gave me a 530K image. With the 250KB *800*dpi B&W C4 TIFF in mind, I decided to push the file size even smaller. (compression increased to 90) This resulted in a 360K image. Even more squeezing (compr = 95) got this down to 250K. However, the *quality* of the image was very disappointing! The 530KB version was quite "fuzzy" (not "jaggies", since JPEGs are more continuous tone than a B&W TIFF, but, rather, "blurry"). The 360KB version began introducing noticeable artifacts that were clearly not present in the original image. This got worse in the 250K version. Bottom line: the 100KB B&W TIFF was much better looking than even the 530KB JPEG. And the 250KB B&W TIFF was so "fine" that I suspect it is overkill (I doubt anyone or anyTHING -- i.e. software -- could discriminate between that at 800dpi and the 400dpi version). I had earlier tried some gr[ea]y scale scans and convinced myself I must be doing something wrong (as the sizes were just so much larger) so I didn't pursue them. In hindsight, a more scientific approach would try to JPEG encode those monochrome representations as well. (I'm through experimenting as I have the answer *I* want/need) Somehow, I doubt they will prove to be more economical than the C4 TIFFs. [N.B. the gr[ea]yscale scans are much "softer" on the eyes (no doubt due to the continuum of "value")] So, to answer *my* initial question (ages ago), 400dpi C4 TIFFs are definitely "adequate". 800dpi are overkill. And, at ~100KB per page, they are quite "affordable". We now return you to your regularly scheduled program... From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Sep 3 10:34:03 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 09:34:03 -0600 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> Don wrote: > Hi, > > I spent a few hours last night playing with different > scanning options and figured I would share my observations. > Bottom line: the 100KB B&W TIFF was much better looking > than even the 530KB JPEG. And the 250KB B&W TIFF was so > "fine" that I suspect it is overkill (I doubt anyone or > anyTHING -- i.e. software -- could discriminate between > that at 800dpi and the 400dpi version). > > So, to answer *my* initial question (ages ago), 400dpi C4 TIFFs > are definitely "adequate". 800dpi are overkill. And, at > ~100KB per page, they are quite "affordable". I'm glad that you found out, what most people who really scan b&w text&schematics knew all the time ;-) And please, not another discussion about jpeg & b&w scans again. The last BS about it is barely weeks ago ... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 3 11:41:04 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:41:04 +0000 Subject: System 96 (Measurement Systems Ltd.) Message-ID: <44FB05A0.5050003@yahoo.co.uk> In dropping off some loaned manuals to someone earlier, I came away with a System 96 box by mistake :-) It's a nice STE bus crate (approx 16-way, without going back downstairs to count) using 3U Eurocards - the nice thing about this one being that it runs OS-9 rather than some proprietary OS/application (as is often the case with Eurocard boxes that are generally aimed at the industrial control market) As well as a 5.25" floppy drive, the machine has a small ST506 hard disk in it running via a SASI bridge (I can only see the underside at the moment, but judging by the connector pin locations it's probably an Emulex) I've got the following boards: 6809 CPU + control ROM SASI HBA + parallel + 2 x serial (for internal disk via bridge) SASI HBA + parallel + 2 x serial (for external SASI devices) FDC Memory (128KB) Memory (128KB) Memory (128KB) Memory (128KB) It was working when last used (which wasn't that long ago; it belonged to someone who still got occasional support jobs for STE bus equipment, and was their backup OS-9 box). I've got various floppies for it, but at present no documentation - that's currently packed up many miles away at the chap's other premises. Which begs the question - anyone have one of these systems with the docs, and can tell me: a) DIP switch settings for the serial lines, so I know which is the console and what line settings to use. b) DIP switch settings for the memory boards. One switch on one of the boards is jammed halfway between open and closed, so needs putting right before I try and get some life out of the machine. cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 3 11:50:35 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:50:35 +0000 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44FB07DB.5040808@yahoo.co.uk> Don wrote: > I had earlier tried some gr[ea]y scale scans and convinced > myself I must be doing something wrong (as the sizes were > just so much larger) so I didn't pursue them. Hmm, a greyscale TIFF test would be the most important one I'd say - something like 16 levels; 256 *might* be overkill. What's readable to a human is important - but equally so is encoding enough information such that scans of sub-standard source material (dirty, torn etc.) could be post-processed on a per-case basis if needs be, before passing to a subsequent OCR step. This is the bit where bi-level scanning tends to fall down as it depends where the level between white/black is as to what gets encoded for "damaged" sections of a document. On pristine source material and at a high enough resolution (so that viewing on a screen scaled-down gets rid of the jagged edges) I'm sure it's otherwise fine. > [N.B. the gr[ea]yscale scans are much "softer" on the eyes > (no doubt due to the continuum of "value")] Lots of the stuff I come across tends to have at least one or two continuous-tone photos inside, which if I was scanning at bi-level (which I never do) I'd have to treat as specific cases. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 3 11:53:19 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:53:19 +0000 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44FB087F.8080300@yahoo.co.uk> e.stiebler wrote: > And please, not another discussion about jpeg & b&w scans again. > The last BS about it is barely weeks ago ... I thought it was decided by Jay that things related to preservation were on-topic (even though this is the off-topic list!). From Steve at oceanrobots.net Sun Sep 3 10:55:19 2006 From: Steve at oceanrobots.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 11:55:19 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 Backup Docs Message-ID: <44FAFAE7.4060708@oceanrobots.net> Hi, Can anyone point me to a copy of "/IBM AS400 Programming: Backup and Recovery Guide/", IBM Form # SC21-8079-0 from June 1988 ? Have tried all the obvious; told that "things don't go back that far". Not exactly a personal machine, but it quals under the 10 year rule. Thanks, Steve From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Sep 3 11:02:18 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 09:02:18 -0700 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44FAFC8A.9070305@dakotacom.net> e.stiebler wrote: > Don wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I spent a few hours last night playing with different >> scanning options and figured I would share my observations. > >> Bottom line: the 100KB B&W TIFF was much better looking >> than even the 530KB JPEG. And the 250KB B&W TIFF was so >> "fine" that I suspect it is overkill (I doubt anyone or >> anyTHING -- i.e. software -- could discriminate between >> that at 800dpi and the 400dpi version). >> >> So, to answer *my* initial question (ages ago), 400dpi C4 TIFFs >> are definitely "adequate". 800dpi are overkill. And, at >> ~100KB per page, they are quite "affordable". > > I'm glad that you found out, what most people who really scan b&w > text&schematics knew all the time ;-) For *schematics*, I would consider 400dpi far too coarse. I'm already experimenting with 800 and 1200dpi to see where the "sweet spot" is for them. But 400 just didn't cut it :-( (unless youre scanning DEC printsets which are usually pretty coarse to begin with! :> ) > And please, not another discussion about jpeg & b&w scans again. > The last BS about it is barely weeks ago ... > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Sep 3 11:05:24 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 09:05:24 -0700 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <44FB07DB.5040808@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> <44FB07DB.5040808@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44FAFD44.1000901@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Don wrote: >> I had earlier tried some gr[ea]y scale scans and convinced >> myself I must be doing something wrong (as the sizes were >> just so much larger) so I didn't pursue them. > > Hmm, a greyscale TIFF test would be the most important one I'd say - > something like 16 levels; 256 *might* be overkill. > > What's readable to a human is important - but equally so is encoding > enough information such that scans of sub-standard source material > (dirty, torn etc.) could be post-processed on a per-case basis if needs > be, before passing to a subsequent OCR step. This is the bit where > bi-level scanning tends to fall down as it depends where the level > between white/black is as to what gets encoded for "damaged" sections of > a document. On pristine source material and at a high enough resolution > (so that viewing on a screen scaled-down gets rid of the jagged edges) > I'm sure it's otherwise fine. I tend to take good care of my drawings -- since they usually are the ONLY "deliverable" that I produce ;-) So, even 30 year old designs are still on nice crisp (unwrinkled) paper! (Hence the desire to scan all this stuff... keeping drawings that "pristine" after all that time takes a LOT of effort) >> [N.B. the gr[ea]yscale scans are much "softer" on the eyes >> (no doubt due to the continuum of "value")] > > Lots of the stuff I come across tends to have at least one or two > continuous-tone photos inside, which if I was scanning at bi-level > (which I never do) I'd have to treat as specific cases. From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Sep 3 11:03:40 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 10:03:40 -0600 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <44FB087F.8080300@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> <44FB087F.8080300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44FAFCDC.9000806@e-bbes.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: >> And please, not another discussion about jpeg & b&w scans again. >> The last BS about it is barely weeks ago ... > > > I thought it was decided by Jay that things related to preservation were > on-topic (even though this is the off-topic list!). > It is on topic for whatever measure of "on topic" I know and like. But we talked about it so many times, and why are we having an archive of classiccomp, if nobody reads it ? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 3 11:09:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 09:09:40 -0700 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <44FAFC8A.9070305@dakotacom.net> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> <44FAFC8A.9070305@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200609030909400024.0E4B797B@10.0.0.252> On 9/3/2006 at 9:02 AM Don wrote: >>> I spent a few hours last night playing with different >>> scanning options and figured I would share my observations. Your results pretty much agreed with what I've observed scanning music. One question not answered to my satisfaction yet is "how many grey levels is enough?" I've got a suspicion that as litttle as 4 may be perfectly adequate most most line drawings. If it's any comfort, the Library of Congress seems to agree with your findings, but they tend to be split over reserving grey scale scanning for things like pictorial and cover art and leave musical scores as B&W. However, that's only in one collection--other collections scan everything in greyscale. But TIFF is the file format. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Sep 3 11:19:44 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 09:19:44 -0700 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <200609030909400024.0E4B797B@10.0.0.252> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> <44FAFC8A.9070305@dakotacom.net> <200609030909400024.0E4B797B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FB00A0.4030101@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/3/2006 at 9:02 AM Don wrote: > >>>> I spent a few hours last night playing with different >>>> scanning options and figured I would share my observations. > > Your results pretty much agreed with what I've observed scanning music. > One question not answered to my satisfaction yet is "how many grey levels > is enough?" I've got a suspicion that as litttle as 4 may be perfectly > adequate most most line drawings. Many TIFF decoders complain if you use "unusual" BPP values. I'd have to reread the spec to see if it is actually *allowed* but I had to write my own encoder/decoder to process 2BPP images. Shirley, this would discourage any such use if the resulting images were not "widely portable". > If it's any comfort, the Library of Congress seems to agree with your > findings, but they tend to be split over reserving grey scale scanning for > things like pictorial and cover art and leave musical scores as B&W. > However, that's only in one collection--other collections scan everything > in greyscale. But TIFF is the file format. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 3 11:16:24 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 09:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Sep 3, 6 09:19:05 am" Message-ID: <200609031616.k83GGOKM009298@floodgap.com> > I distinctly remember that there was a book on how to program the 1541 > in order to do exactly this, and had lots of examples. I unfortunately > never owned it. I found it, at the time, in of all places, the Queens > Public Library. I tried to re-check it out several times, but the > Library wouldn't let me hold it any longer than about 2 cycles. :-) This sounds like "Inside Commodore DOS" maybe? An excellent book. > It might have been that same book or another, but it had info as to how > to tweak the motor speed of the 1541 with a fluorescent light. The > motor had lines on it which would appear to be stopped under the light > of a fluorescent source at either 50 or 60Hz. (There were two rings of > lines, one for US, and one for Europe.) There was also a pot on the > 1541 board that you could tweak to control the motor speed. I don't remember this in Inside, might have been in Anatomy of the 1541. > Another trick was that if you had the Pet Emulator (which wasn't a real > emulator, it just reshuffled video memory around to match the 4032's > memory map for video), and attached a small speaker to one of the pins > of the CIA which was the shift register output (I think this might have > been like CB1 or CB2 or something like that), you could also get Pet > like sound, but you'd have the change the poke addresses around to match > the CIA's. Was useful for all those old Pet games. :-) This was kind of unnecessary though since the PET Emulator would pick up POKEs into this range and map them into SID, so you got CB2 sound for free. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I put the fun in funeral. -------------------------------------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 3 12:37:06 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 17:37:06 +0000 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <44FAFCDC.9000806@e-bbes.com> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> <44FB087F.8080300@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAFCDC.9000806@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44FB12C2.9020301@yahoo.co.uk> e.stiebler wrote: > and why are we having an archive of classiccomp, if nobody reads it ? I thought that for technical reasons (i.e. it takes many hours to rebuild the index, and because Jay hasn't figured out how to clone himself ;) the archive was at the stage of: "only works between the hours of 6-8pm, if you happen to be on US time". Maybe it's fixed now and I missed a post about it... J. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 12:09:03 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:09:03 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <44FA5269.1050709@jbrain.com> References: <200609020323.k823LHBK030646@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200609021300.44988.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FA5269.1050709@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200609031309.03237.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 September 2006 11:56 pm, Jim Brain wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > People should also be aware of the misleading stuff in the way the speed > > of that part is presented. They called it "a 4 MHz Z80" but even though > > it was indeed that chip the way they had it configured in there was so > > tightly coupled with the rest of the system that it only ran some of the > > time, rather than all of the time, giving an effective clock rate of > > somewhere around 2.5 MHz. > > Misleading it was, though we should assign blame to the Marketing folks. > > When the C128 was being developed, Marketing wanted to hit the business > market (they had tried to position the Plus/4 there and failed). Oh really? I was wondering what they were trying to do there. I was also of the impression that the +4 was supposed to be a replacement for the c64, and that the c16 (which I think I may have seen _one_ of perhaps) was supposed to replace the vic20. But I'm not really sure. > Someone remember the old C64 CP/M cartridge and decided to play that up > (the C128 was C64 compatible, they reasoned, so the CP/M cart could be > used to offer CP/M support). I read somewhere that the CP/M cartridge never actually worked all that well. If it worked at all. > The problem was, the CP/M cart sucked, and would only work on the > earliest models of the C64. It was a direct copy of the Apple CP/M > cart, according to some reports, but didn;t take into account the > specifics of the C64 expansion port. I have the 64's service manual around here someplace, and maybe I should look at the differences between the various boards, I don't remember anything in particular there that would account for this. I do remember a couple of lines of that port being labeled "Z80" and "DMA", which I never saw anything use. > Brian Bagnall documents the specifics in his book, but in general, Bil > Herd got the CP/M cart to work by "accidentally" designing the Z80 into > the motherboard. > > However, as the design-in was accidental, there was little time (or > ability) to do a proper design-in. If it had been a sanctioned design, > the full 4MHz would have been offered (and probably more), but CBM was > cheap, and Bil was trying to hit a mandated requirement, not a speedy > CP/M design. > > Although the book does not document it, I think Bil had to fight tooth > and nail to keep the accidental work in place. > > However, as Bil later notes, the Z80 ended up saving the CBM bacon, as > it was used to deal with badly misbehaving cartridges that did funky > things with the C64 MMU lines, which the C128 could not deal with on > machine startup. Thus, the Z80 actually starts the C128 up, and then > passes control to the 8502 (6502/10 compatible) CPU. I also have the 128 manual on hand as well, but never really dug into the workings of that MMU chip. As a service center and wanting to have a complete set of spares on hand I did get a hold of some of those, and some of the PLA chips that were used in the 128, as well as a number of the parts peculiar to the 1571, and ended up never using any of them. I don't know if they'd be useful in anything else offhand. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 3 12:14:08 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 11:14:08 -0600 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44FA1F39.6070700@gjcp.net> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> <44F7666C.4020406@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F98FD3.4030701@gjcp.net> <44F9A6A3.2000404@jetnet.ab.ca> <44FA1F39.6070700@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <44FB0D60.1020809@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Yes, but where's the fun in that? Part of the reason I started to write > a PDP-8 emulator was to see how it all worked - I'm on the third > complete scratch rewrite, and each time I throw it all away and begin > again I gain another insight into how to do it better. Hey I am trying to build real hardware here. This is about my 20'th revision here on quad paper since about 2002. Since I found where I can get proms burnt development is moving faster for 2901/rom based computer. What I am trying to do is squeeze it all into 512 words of control rom for the cpu & front panel. > Gordon. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 3 12:26:44 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:26:44 -0400 Subject: Scanning "Results" In-Reply-To: <44FB12C2.9020301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44FAF442.2010404@dakotacom.net> <44FAF5EB.8000201@e-bbes.com> <44FB087F.8080300@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAFCDC.9000806@e-bbes.com> <44FB12C2.9020301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060903172644.68627BA415A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: > > and why are we having an archive of classiccomp, if nobody reads it ? > > I thought that for technical reasons (i.e. it takes many hours to rebuild the > index, and because Jay hasn't figured out how to clone himself ;) the archive > was at the stage of: "only works between the hours of 6-8pm, if you happen to > be on US time". Maybe it's fixed now and I missed a post about it... Hey, I use the archive occasionally. Usual method of using: 1. Download the gzipped archive of each month's messages. (Typically 1 Mbyte for a month of cctalk). 2. Uncompress the archives. 3. Grep for what I'm looking for. Often I use it as a substitute for reading the E-mails. Realistically, on a discussion list most traffic will be people who want to talk (even if it's just rehashing an old topic for the umpteenth time) instead of actually exchanging information. Tim. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 12:31:35 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:31:35 -0400 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609030438.AAA12015@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200609022301.59779.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609030438.AAA12015@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200609031331.35678.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 12:34 am, der Mouse wrote: > > I built myself a little box that uses a center-off DPDT switch to > > select whether that light bulb is inline with the outlet in the box > > or not. > > My father built himself a board which was similar but more elaborate: > he could select among (1) a small (7.5W?) light bulb, (2) a large > (100W?) light bulb, (3) a high-wattage heating element that was still > under the breaker trip current for that mains circuit (an iron, I > think), or (4) no limiter at all. > > If I did much work where such a thing were useful, I probably would > have put together something similar myself. :-) Actually mine is a bit more elaborate as well -- it's in the same box with a variac, and there's a switch to select whether the "normal" or "boost" voltage is used, as well as a double-pole power switch -- when that one's off I *know* that both sides of the power line are disconnected from the unit under test. The bulb I'm using is a 40W, which is too small for some stuff, so I really probably should add another bulb and an option to switch it in or out. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 12:34:24 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:34:24 -0400 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <44FA6BE6.70600@dakotacom.net> References: <200609022049.k82Kn6Pl003900@keith.ezwind.net> <200609022047510975.0BA457C0@10.0.0.252> <44FA6BE6.70600@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200609031334.24030.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 01:45 am, Don wrote: > Also, note that in some circles, "scientific notation" is restricted > to specifying exponents that are multiples of 3. I've seen that one referred to as "engineering notation". :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 12:43:04 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:43:04 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> References: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 09:19 am, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I remember playing with the code in this book and forcing the 1541 to > seek past track #45. When you did this, the 1541 would emit a loud > clunk and then your drive head would be stuck. You'd have to take the > 1541 apart and move the head manually. I remember a lot of "repairs" that involved me doing exactly that, often after the owner had been running some copy program... > It might have been that same book or another, but it had info as to how > to tweak the motor speed of the 1541 with a fluorescent light. The > motor had lines on it which would appear to be stopped under the light > of a fluorescent source at either 50 or 60Hz. (There were two rings of > lines, one for US, and one for Europe.) There was also a pot on the > 1541 board that you could tweak to control the motor speed. Speed wasn't often a problem with those drives, excepting those few cases I ran across where the tachometer winding in the motor opened up and they tried to run at darn near twice the normal speed. More of a problem was bad belts, they'd slip. > Another thing I ran into with the 1541 was that a (diode) bridge > commonly blew out. The symptom of this was that the power LED would > flicker at 30Hz when this happened. I've never seen one do that. I have seen them where you'd turn the unit on and get no lights but the motor was running (bad 5V bridge) or you'd get normal lights but no motor activity at all (bad 12V bridge). > I couldn't find the right bridge at my local Rat Shack at the time, That's exactly where I'd get the replacements I used, which were 4A parts instead of the idiotic 1A parts that were in there in the first place. In fact, I purchased a bunch of them back when and still have some, left over, NOS, if anybody needs one. :-) > so after figuring out which of the 4 diodes in the bridge died, I found a > large diode and soldered it to the pins of the bridge.) That bridge was a > single component, not 4 diodes, but it was an easy repair. The diode wasn't > quite right, so it didn't last very long, but it was a very easy repair, so > I just repeated it. :-) That's one way to do it, I suppose. The only advantage I see to bridges as opposed to separate diodes is convenience in manufacturing. > A few other tricks at the time, it was possible to get stereo sound out > of both the C128 and the C64 by taking another SID chip (these were > expensive at the time ~$30-$50), and bend a couple of the pins. One was > an address pin, the other was the sound out pin. You could then place > the new SID chip right smack ontop of the existing one (piggy-back), > solder a wire to the sound out pin and you got stereo. I've heard of that one before, but have never seen it done. > Another trick was if you had a tape drive, you could use it as a very > crappy 1 bit audio digitizer. This didn't work all that well, but it > was something. Later someone wrote an article (in RUN Magazine > perhaps?) about getting a serial A->D converter. Was a little 8 pin > chip that you could attach to the CIA's shift register to read the > values off. I have some of those old magazines around here someplace, maybe I oughta dig them out and see what I have and what's in them. Mostly software stuff, rather than hardware, as I recall. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 3 13:49:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 11:49:40 -0700 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> On 9/3/2006 at 1:43 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Sunday 03 September 2006 09:19 am, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> I remember playing with the code in this book and forcing the 1541 to >> seek past track #45. When you did this, the 1541 would emit a loud >> clunk and then your drive head would be stuck. You'd have to take the >> 1541 apart and move the head manually. What's a good substitute drive mechanism for the 1541/71? The drives that come as factory original are pretty chintzy. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Sep 3 14:08:37 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:08:37 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI Message-ID: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> Hi, I want to move my scanners over to one of these Macs (probably the 840AV since I can also exploit the video capabilities thereof). But, it's got those wacky DB25 SCSI connectors. :-/ I have DB25-Centronics cables. And, DB25-HD50 adapters. The scanners have a hodge-podge of *different* connectors (sheesh! talk about "standards"... :< ). I assume a good goal is to minimize *connections* wherever possible. So, instead of DB25-HD50 adapter to HD50 cable, use DB25-HD50 cable, if possible. But, I'm nervous about the DB25's and their roles in all this. Is this just a regular SCSI (narrow, SE) bus with a few less returns? Or, are there other consequences of this connector choice? E.g., how much grief can I expect going *through* the slide scanner with DB25 coming in and Centronics going out? Is this just effectively a "DB25-Centronics" adapter with a device tap in the middle? Thanks! --don From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Sep 3 14:42:23 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 20:42:23 +0100 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> References: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FB301F.6080204@dsl.pipex.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What's a good substitute drive mechanism for the 1541/71? The drives that > come as factory original are pretty chintzy. I'm not sure you'd be able to swap it out - isn't the head preamp on the 1541 motherboard, not a separate drive interface board? -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 3 14:55:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:55:15 -0700 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FB301F.6080204@dsl.pipex.com> References: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> <44FB301F.6080204@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200609031255150862.0F1A0262@10.0.0.252> On 9/3/2006 at 8:42 PM Philip Pemberton wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What's a good substitute drive mechanism for the 1541/71? The drives >that >> come as factory original are pretty chintzy. > >I'm not sure you'd be able to swap it out - isn't the head preamp on the >1541 >motherboard, not a separate drive interface board? Indeed it is. I hoped that perhaps generations of C128 hackers had found a way around this by now. Silly me. Cheers, Chuck From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Sep 3 15:13:12 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 21:13:12 +0100 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <200609031255150862.0F1A0262@10.0.0.252> References: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> <44FB301F.6080204@dsl.pipex.com> <200609031255150862.0F1A0262@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FB3758.9080100@dsl.pipex.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/3/2006 at 8:42 PM Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I'm not sure you'd be able to swap it out - isn't the head preamp on the >> 1541 >> motherboard, not a separate drive interface board? > > Indeed it is. I hoped that perhaps generations of C128 hackers had found a > way around this by now. Silly me. What you could probably do is remove the head preamp IC and stepper motor drivers and patch into the circuit directly. I'm not sure if that'll give you a Shugart-type FDD interface, but it might be worth a shot (on a drive with a truly buggered mechanism). Or you could build a new 1541 mainboard from scratch and mod the circuit to provide a Shugart FDD interface, which might be a bit easier. ISTR there's some stuff on the inner workings of the 1541 on Ruud Baltissen's site, including some info on the inner workings of the 1541 LSI controller. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Sep 3 15:14:57 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:14:57 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44FB37C1.1050009@msm.umr.edu> Don wrote: > Hi, > > I want to move my scanners over to one of these Macs > (probably the 840AV since I can also exploit the video > capabilities thereof). > > But, it's got those wacky DB25 SCSI connectors. :-/ > > I have DB25-Centronics cables. And, DB25-HD50 adapters. > The scanners have a hodge-podge of *different* connectors > (sheesh! talk about "standards"... :< ). > > I assume a good goal is to minimize *connections* wherever > possible. So, instead of DB25-HD50 adapter to HD50 cable, > use DB25-HD50 cable, if possible. > > But, I'm nervous about the DB25's and their roles in all this. > Is this just a regular SCSI (narrow, SE) bus with a few less > returns? Or, are there other consequences of this connector > choice? > > E.g., how much grief can I expect going *through* the slide > scanner with DB25 coming in and Centronics going out? Is > this just effectively a "DB25-Centronics" adapter with a > device tap in the middle? > > Thanks! > --don > > The main thing to worry about when the DB25 is involved is that the cable that is used is scsi certified. The round cable that is usually used between the two connectors if it is there has a special way of positioning the req and ack signals in the bundle of wires. Other than that, the standard specified the connector, so that should be no worry. I know early on, some cables were made and just used that may not have been SCSI certified, and in early "vintage" systems you may run across such, and have noise or performance problems with the devices, if the REQ / ACK / Select signals get messed up. Only when you go from 50 -> 68 pin should you beware of termination on the upper 8 bits added by the extra lines and what you have for an initiator and targets. There is not much science in a wide initiator selecting narrow devices on a chain, but there is when you have wide targets and a narrow initiator. but you don't have that from what I read, so it is just a matter of haveing a bit of everything in the chain connetorwise, but the SCSI bus should all be the same. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 3 15:32:51 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:32:51 -0700 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <200609031255150862.0F1A0262@10.0.0.252> References: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> <44FB301F.6080204@dsl.pipex.com> <200609031255150862.0F1A0262@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: At 12:55 PM -0700 9/3/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 9/3/2006 at 8:42 PM Philip Pemberton wrote: > >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> What's a good substitute drive mechanism for the 1541/71? The drives >>that >>> come as factory original are pretty chintzy. >> >>I'm not sure you'd be able to swap it out - isn't the head preamp on the >>1541 >>motherboard, not a separate drive interface board? > >Indeed it is. I hoped that perhaps generations of C128 hackers had found a >way around this by now. Silly me. I think it's called hooking your C64/128 up to a PC via a X1541 (or newer) cable, and using the PC as a drive via the appropriate software. This is one of the solutions I'm thinking of trying. Apparently it allows you to use the PC as a 1541, and to use emulator images. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 15:37:22 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:37:22 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> References: <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609031637.22420.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 02:49 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/3/2006 at 1:43 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >On Sunday 03 September 2006 09:19 am, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> I remember playing with the code in this book and forcing the 1541 to > >> seek past track #45. When you did this, the 1541 would emit a loud > >> clunk and then your drive head would be stuck. You'd have to take the > >> 1541 apart and move the head manually. > > What's a good substitute drive mechanism for the 1541/71? The drives that > come as factory original are pretty chintzy. There were two makers of those, Alps (which I've not had good luck with overall) and Newtronics. The ones where you'd push down on the latch in the center of the drive were Alps, and the ones with the lever you'd turn were Newtronics, which always seemed to me to be a little better made. The heads on those are _not_ the same and there's a wire jumper on the board typically to set it up for one or the other. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 15:41:42 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:41:42 -0400 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 03:08 pm, Don wrote: > I assume a good goal is to minimize *connections* wherever > possible. Why? > So, instead of DB25-HD50 adapter to HD50 cable, use DB25-HD50 cable, if > possible. The main difference would be way fewer ground wires. If the 50-wire cable is ribbon cable then every other wire is a ground, which would tend to minimize interactions betweeen adjacent signals. If it's not ribbon cable I'm not sure how they do it. I would imagine that a 25-pin connector would give you lower signal quality overall. > But, I'm nervous about the DB25's and their roles in all this. > Is this just a regular SCSI (narrow, SE) bus with a few less > returns? Or, are there other consequences of this connector > choice? See above. Given the choice to use it or not I'd opt not to, myself. But the exact results are going to depend on a lot of factors like the quality of the cable, the amount of electrical noise in your environment, the quality of what's driving both ends, etc. > E.g., how much grief can I expect going *through* the slide > scanner with DB25 coming in and Centronics going out? I'm not sure that you even _can_ do this without seeing some detailed technical info on the scanner. > Is this just effectively a "DB25-Centronics" adapter with a device tap in > the middle? No way to tell without looking... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 15:42:26 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:42:26 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FB301F.6080204@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> <44FB301F.6080204@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200609031642.26390.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 03:42 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > What's a good substitute drive mechanism for the 1541/71? The drives > > that come as factory original are pretty chintzy. > > I'm not sure you'd be able to swap it out - isn't the head preamp on the > 1541 motherboard, not a separate drive interface board? Yes. What I'd worry about here is a good match for the head, particularly write current levels. And I've not seen a spec for those on any drives. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 15:46:03 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:46:03 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FB3758.9080100@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200609031255150862.0F1A0262@10.0.0.252> <44FB3758.9080100@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200609031646.03748.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 04:13 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 9/3/2006 at 8:42 PM Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> I'm not sure you'd be able to swap it out - isn't the head preamp on the > >> 1541 motherboard, not a separate drive interface board? > > > > Indeed it is. I hoped that perhaps generations of C128 hackers had found > > a way around this by now. Silly me. > > What you could probably do is remove the head preamp IC and stepper motor > drivers and patch into the circuit directly. I'm not sure if that'll give > you a Shugart-type FDD interface, but it might be worth a shot (on a drive > with a truly buggered mechanism). I used to think it might be worthwhile to somehow work out a plug-in (for the cartridge port?) that would work with a standard floppy interface, though you'd also need power for the drive as the standard c64 drive wouldn't be able to handle it. Besides the actual interface you'd probably need an eprom or similar. > Or you could build a new 1541 mainboard from scratch and mod the circuit to > provide a Shugart FDD interface, which might be a bit easier. ISTR there's > some stuff on the inner workings of the 1541 on Ruud Baltissen's site, > including some info on the inner workings of the 1541 LSI controller. What LSI controller? They have a 6502 on there, a couple of ROMs, and in some cases a gate array chip that just replaces a bunch of LSTTL and makes it cheaper for them to manufacture (and I have some of those on hand if anybody needs some :-). Aside from that there's an NE592 preamp chip, and the rest is a couple of 6522 chips and a handful of LSTTL for the interface and clock generation and whatnot. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 15:48:51 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:48:51 -0400 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FB37C1.1050009@msm.umr.edu> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <44FB37C1.1050009@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200609031648.51185.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 04:14 pm, jim stephens wrote: > Only when you go from 50 -> 68 pin should you beware of > termination on the upper 8 bits added by the extra lines and > what you have for an initiator and targets. > > There is not much science in a wide initiator selecting narrow > devices on a chain, but there is when you have wide targets and > a narrow initiator. What sort of problems would you expect doing this? My first SCSI setup some years back involved a wide drive with an adapter, a 50-wire ribbon cable, and an Adaptec 2842 which worked fine until a storm rolling through here took out the drive, the 2842, and the MB. :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ray at arachelian.com Sun Sep 3 15:56:12 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:56:12 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: References: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44FB416C.7040705@arachelian.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Could this be something like "Programming the 1541"? I tried Google, > but only came up with "Anatomy of the 1541 Drive" by abacus. I might > have the book you're talking about as I'm pretty sure I have a 3rd > party book in storage that is specifically on the 1541 (probably the > second title since I think it's from Abacus). While a large part of > my documentation has been donated to the Historical Resource Center, > I'm hanging onto the C64 and Apple // doc's for the time being. It was a small 8.5"x5.5" spiral bound book. I think it's probably this one, but not sure: http://members.aol.com/c64dir/kjtr/index.htm (Or something very similar to it.) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 3 15:54:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:54:55 -0700 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: References: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> <44FB301F.6080204@dsl.pipex.com> <200609031255150862.0F1A0262@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609031354550255.0F50A03F@10.0.0.252> On 9/3/2006 at 1:32 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >I think it's called hooking your C64/128 up to a PC via a X1541 (or >newer) cable, and using the PC as a drive via the appropriate >software. This is one of the solutions I'm thinking of trying. >Apparently it allows you to use the PC as a 1541, and to use emulator >images. But that doesn't get this disks read in the first place! It seems to me that the 1571 drives "gobble" old diskettes more easily than do other drives. By "gobble" I mean peel the oxide right off the cookie, usually accompanied by a squeal that says "your floppy's toast!" I've gotten to the point where I won't even bother with the old CDC "Precision" branded 5.25" floppies. 90% of the time, it's wasted effort, trashing the floppy and necessitating cleaning the heads of the drive. Cheers, Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Sun Sep 3 15:59:21 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:59:21 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> References: <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <200609031343.04835.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609031149400229.0EDDF557@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FB4229.2020705@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What's a good substitute drive mechanism for the 1541/71? The drives that > come as factory original are pretty chintzy. > Running VINCE on a more modern machine? (ducking out of the way of Chuck's baseball bat.) :-) From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Sep 3 16:53:53 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 17:53:53 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FB416C.7040705@arachelian.com> References: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <44FB416C.7040705@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <5FD965A6-20E1-4CCB-A347-DECDABFD82E0@colourfull.com> On Sep 3, 2006, at 4:56 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> Could this be something like "Programming the 1541"? I tried Google, >> but only came up with "Anatomy of the 1541 Drive" by abacus. I might >> have the book you're talking about as I'm pretty sure I have a 3rd >> party book in storage that is specifically on the 1541 (probably the >> second title since I think it's from Abacus). While a large part of >> my documentation has been donated to the Historical Resource Center, >> I'm hanging onto the C64 and Apple // doc's for the time being. > It was a small 8.5"x5.5" spiral bound book. I think it's probably > this > one, but not sure: http://members.aol.com/c64dir/kjtr/index.htm (Or > something very similar to it.) I have this one in my collection http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/vintage/copypro.jpg Could this be the one your thinking of? Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 3 17:28:31 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 17:28:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Bugs T-shirt Message-ID: <200609032228.k83MSV6k035354@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hey, I've got an old T-shirt that doesn't fit me a nd > is destined to hit the > rag pile. It's a "Getting out the last bugs" shir t > with "SunStruck 4.1.89 > (Wanda)" on the back. Is this of any historical > value or is it better used to wax the Volvo? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Any chance of a pic? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Sep 3 17:21:07 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:21:07 +0100 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FB416C.7040705@arachelian.com> References: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <44FB416C.7040705@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44FB5553.6010606@dsl.pipex.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > It was a small 8.5"x5.5" spiral bound book. I think it's probably this > one, but not sure: http://members.aol.com/c64dir/kjtr/index.htm (Or > something very similar to it.) And here's the text of said book: Well, all of it up to page 161, at least... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Sep 3 17:52:31 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:52:31 +0100 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <200609031646.03748.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609031255150862.0F1A0262@10.0.0.252> <44FB3758.9080100@dsl.pipex.com> <200609031646.03748.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44FB5CAF.8090905@dsl.pipex.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I used to think it might be worthwhile to somehow work out a plug-in (for the > cartridge port?) that would work with a standard floppy interface, though > you'd also need power for the drive as the standard c64 drive wouldn't be > able to handle it. Besides the actual interface you'd probably need an eprom > or similar. You could do something similar to the "IDEfile" interface - build a box that emulates a 1541 and put a menu system on it. The big problem would be with copy-protected software that used half-track scanning, code upload and other nasty tricks. > What LSI controller? They have a 6502 on there, a couple of ROMs, and in > some cases a gate array chip that just replaces a bunch of LSTTL and makes it > cheaper for them to manufacture Oh, it was a gate array? I knew it was some custom chip, I just wasn't sure if it was a custom LSI or a gate array... It certainly has a Commodore house part number on it IIRC. > (and I have some of those on hand if anybody > needs some :-). Aside from that there's an NE592 preamp chip, and the rest > is a couple of 6522 chips and a handful of LSTTL for the interface and clock > generation and whatnot. You could probably stuff that lot into an FPGA, but I don't know if anyone's done a cycle-accurate 6522 HDL model yet. There's certainly free 6502 models out there though - Free6502 (which used to be on Free-IP) and the like. I really should try and do that once I've got some spare cash lying around. Could really do with getting a C-64 and a known-good 1541 first though... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 3 17:50:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 23:50:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: <200609022030.24015.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 2, 6 08:30:24 pm Message-ID: > > On Saturday 02 September 2006 06:25 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > [...] > > Another way to do it is to use 'back to back' mains transformers. Connect > > the 'secondary' (which is now used as a primary) of a small mains > > transformer to the (AC) output of the trnasformer you're using to provide > > the logic supplies (or to the output of another mains transformer if > > you're using the SMPSU for the logic). Then rectify or voltage double the > > output of this extra transformer (the winding that was originally the > > primary) to get about 200V DC. > > You don't need a voltage doubler to get most of the way there. Peak voltage > of a lightly loaded rectifier-filter setup running off "110" (or "115", > "117", whatever the case may be -- it seems to be trending higher as time I would seriously recomend against rectifying the mains for something like this. Non-isolated PSUs have the nasty habit of making things live that you least expect, and may kill you (or worse, damage a classic computer). If you use back-to-back transformers as I've suggsted, the actual voltage got get out depends on the turns rations, of course. Maybe a simple rectifier will be enough, maybe you need a doubler. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 3 17:54:27 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 23:54:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609021858320226.0B404102@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 2, 6 06:58:32 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/2/2006 at 11:11 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >A useful trick is to connect a 100W mains light bulb in series with the > >input to the transformer when first applying power (and with the > >secondaries of the transformer unconnected). Such a bulb will easily > >handle the magnetising current of a small transformer, anf won't even > >glow (or drop much voltage), so you can check the output voltages, etc. > > Hmmm, the way I'd do is to hook up one winding to the mains, then tie one > lead of the second winding to either side of the mains supply and measure > the voltage between the other lead and the other side of the mains supply. > If correctly phased, the voltage difference will be closer to 0 than > 2xmains. Sure. And you still use a series light bulb in case you get it wrong (or your meter is malfunctioning, or...). In fact you can use the bulb for the initial test, it'll drop almost no voltage so you'll get over 100V (from your mains) across the primary. Easily enough to see if you get 0 or 200V between the free ends. No, I'm not afraid of the mains, but I do treat it with respsect. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 3 17:47:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 23:47:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 2, 6 08:20:37 pm Message-ID: > I guess I should've been more specific on my position. It *should* > be an I/O thing. Doing arithmetic in BCD is not something I'd thought > of...but being inherently tied to decimal, it likely wouldn't be the > best choice for the underlying computational engine for a calculator > which is supposed to support multiple bases. I think most handheld calculators use BCD arithmetic. The HP RPL machines (28, 48, etc) use several different object types. A real number is stored in a floating point BCD form. User binary numbers (which can be displayed in hex, octal, bianry or decimal) are stored as 64 bit binary numbers. Some commands work on both types of object (but of course the first operation in such a command is to check the object type and go to a different internal routine as appropriate), most mathematical functions work on reals but not binaries, logical functions work on binaries but not reals. Of course there are commands to convert between various object types. But non-integral binary numbers are not implements. On the other hand, the HP41, when fitted with an Advantage Pac (ROM module) can do bitwise logical operations, but I am pretty sure all numbers are stored in the normal floating point BCD format, and converted to binary for the operation, then converted back again. Hmmm... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 3 17:58:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 23:58:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609030438.AAA12015@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 3, 6 00:34:12 am Message-ID: > My father built himself a board which was similar but more elaborate: > he could select among (1) a small (7.5W?) light bulb, (2) a large > (100W?) light bulb, (3) a high-wattage heating element that was still > under the breaker trip current for that mains circuit (an iron, I > think), or (4) no limiter at all. Another useful limiter (to repleace (3) in your setup is a 1000W tungsten halogen bulb (e.g. one of those 'security lamps'. They're pretty cheap now). The advantage of light bulbs is the postive temperature coefficient of the filament. THey have a low resistance when cold (and thus drop almost no voltage, often a small device will happily run with a bulb in series), but limit the current if there's a dead short. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 3 18:58:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:58:24 -0700 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609031658240262.0FF89A5A@10.0.0.252> A small inverter (would one of the CFL LCD backlight inverters do?) should be all one needs, isn't it? I don't think voltage regulation has to be spot-on for these things. EDN and Electronic Design are full of "get this voltage from +5 (or +1.4) designs. The last one I recall generated +500v. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 3 19:01:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 17:01:56 -0700 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609031701560838.0FFBD8B0@10.0.0.252> On 9/3/2006 at 11:54 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >No, I'm not afraid of the mains, but I do treat it with respsect. Especially when your mains voltage is twice that of the US and Canada. Is the current supplied to a wall receptacle just as high? Our 120v receptacles are typically "protected" with a 15A or 20A circuit breaker. Another thing to have on your shop outlets is GFI protection. It could save your life. Cheers, Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Sun Sep 3 19:25:45 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 17:25:45 -0700 Subject: HP 2934A Printer Manual Needed In-Reply-To: <200609032357.k83NvY3H065979@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609032357.k83NvY3H065979@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Cleaning house and came across said printer. Appears to work great and has an RS232 interface. However I really need the owners/ programming manual to make use of it. CRC From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 3 19:47:31 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 20:47:31 -0400 Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 3, 2006, at 6:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I guess I should've been more specific on my position. It *should* >> be an I/O thing. Doing arithmetic in BCD is not something I'd thought >> of...but being inherently tied to decimal, it likely wouldn't be the >> best choice for the underlying computational engine for a calculator >> which is supposed to support multiple bases. > > I think most handheld calculators use BCD arithmetic. Yes, I believe this is the case. Not so much, though, for computer-based calculator programs, which (I thought?) were what we're talking about. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 3 20:53:35 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 18:53:35 -0700 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FB416C.7040705@arachelian.com> References: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <44FB416C.7040705@arachelian.com> Message-ID: At 4:56 PM -0400 9/3/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Could this be something like "Programming the 1541"? I tried Google, >> but only came up with "Anatomy of the 1541 Drive" by abacus. I might >> have the book you're talking about as I'm pretty sure I have a 3rd >> party book in storage that is specifically on the 1541 (probably the >> second title since I think it's from Abacus). While a large part of >> my documentation has been donated to the Historical Resource Center, >> I'm hanging onto the C64 and Apple // doc's for the time being. >It was a small 8.5"x5.5" spiral bound book. I think it's probably this >one, but not sure: http://members.aol.com/c64dir/kjtr/index.htm (Or >something very similar to it.) OK, that's not one I have, what I have is: The Anatomy of the 1541 Disk Drive and 1571 Internals Both are from Abacus Software Now to figure out where I can setup the C64 and a pair of 1541's that I brought back from storage with the books... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Sep 3 20:57:05 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 20:57:05 -0500 Subject: Apple SCSI Message-ID: I had heard that Apple did the DB-25 thing because the HD-50 hadn't been standardized yet and they didn't have enough back-panel real estate on the Plus for a 50-pin ribbon/Centronics type. Better Apple SCSI cables have enough girth to where I think they have the grounds internally, but they are wired in the connectors up to fewer pins, or the shield, or somesuch hack. For simple scanner use, a well-shielded (thick-girth) everyhing-connected DB-25 to DB-25 is something that I've used in the past. The Apple SCSI implementation is not pushing the performance boundary at all on the external port, I think it's asynchronous SCSI-1. Q950s and many PowerMacs have dual-SCSI, so your scanner can be on "substandard" wiring without messing up your drive chain, not sure about the 800 or 840. I have an interesting SCSI cable - its a ribbon/pin-header but has shields for "external" use. I think it might have gone with the ComputerVision CADDstation that I gave away (that had all pin-header connections with some sort of funky ground wipe that would connect the shield on this cable.) Was this ever something approaching standard, or was this CV proprietary (or was it not CV SCSI and just looks like it)? From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 21:44:39 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 22:44:39 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FB5CAF.8090905@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200609031646.03748.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FB5CAF.8090905@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200609032244.39103.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 06:52 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > What LSI controller? They have a 6502 on there, a couple of ROMs, and > > in some cases a gate array chip that just replaces a bunch of LSTTL and > > makes it cheaper for them to manufacture > > Oh, it was a gate array? I knew it was some custom chip, I just wasn't sure > if it was a custom LSI or a gate array... It certainly has a Commodore > house part number on it IIRC. Yah, it was a 325572 and I have 3 of them kicking around. :-) > > (and I have some of those on hand if anybody needs some :-). Aside from > > that there's an NE592 preamp chip, and the rest is a couple of 6522 chips > > and a handful of LSTTL for the interface and clock generation and whatnot. > > You could probably stuff that lot into an FPGA, but I don't know if > anyone's done a cycle-accurate 6522 HDL model yet. There's certainly free > 6502 models out there though - Free6502 (which used to be on Free-IP) and > the like. > > I really should try and do that once I've got some spare cash lying around. > Could really do with getting a C-64 and a known-good 1541 first though... The ones that I have that are still good (or were the last time I tried them) are in storage and currently inaccessible to me. I do have roms, though, on hand here, for both the c64 and 1541, in several versions. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 3 21:46:38 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 22:46:38 -0400 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609032246.38609.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 06:50 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Saturday 02 September 2006 06:25 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > [...] > > > Another way to do it is to use 'back to back' mains transformers. > > > Connect the 'secondary' (which is now used as a primary) of a small > > > mains transformer to the (AC) output of the trnasformer you're using to > > > provide the logic supplies (or to the output of another mains > > > transformer if you're using the SMPSU for the logic). Then rectify or > > > voltage double the output of this extra transformer (the winding that > > > was originally the primary) to get about 200V DC. > > > > You don't need a voltage doubler to get most of the way there. Peak > > voltage of a lightly loaded rectifier-filter setup running off "110" (or > > "115", "117", whatever the case may be -- it seems to be trending higher > > as time > > I would seriously recomend against rectifying the mains for something > like this. Non-isolated PSUs have the nasty habit of making things live > that you least expect, and may kill you (or worse, damage a classic > computer). Oh, I wasn't suggesting that, simply pointing out that once you got your isolation a simple rectifier would do the trick just fine... I've had my experiences with non-isolated equipment, more than I ever wanted, and don't plan to build any to add to that. :-) > If you use back-to-back transformers as I've suggsted, the actual voltage > got get out depends on the turns rations, of course. Maybe a simple > rectifier will be enough, maybe you need a doubler. Many suggestions that I've seen illustrated like that suggest using two identical transformers, which should get you the same thing out as you put in. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 3 22:04:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 20:04:47 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609032004470231.10A33C8A@10.0.0.252> On 9/3/2006 at 8:57 PM Scott Quinn wrote: >I had heard that Apple did the DB-25 thing because the HD-50 hadn't been >standardized yet and they didn't have enough back-panel real estate on the Plus for a 50-pin >ribbon/Centronics type. Wonder why a DD50 wasn't used? Probably because the DB25 was cheap and easy to get? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 3 22:16:37 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 15:16:37 +1200 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <200609032004470231.10A33C8A@10.0.0.252> References: <200609032004470231.10A33C8A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 9/4/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/3/2006 at 8:57 PM Scott Quinn wrote: > > >I had heard that Apple did the DB-25 thing because the HD-50 hadn't been > >standardized yet and they didn't have enough back-panel real estate on the > >Plus for a 50-pin ribbon/Centronics type. > > Wonder why a DD50 wasn't used? Probably because the DB25 was cheap and > easy to get? Besides the fact that Sun was about the only vendor using the DD50, there still isn't room for a connector that wide on the back of a Mac plus. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 3 22:54:32 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 20:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <200609031354550255.0F50A03F@10.0.0.252> from Chuck Guzis at "Sep 3, 6 01:54:55 pm" Message-ID: <200609040354.k843sW8j009298@floodgap.com> > > I think it's called hooking your C64/128 up to a PC via a X1541 (or > > newer) cable, and using the PC as a drive via the appropriate > > software. This is one of the solutions I'm thinking of trying. > > Apparently it allows you to use the PC as a 1541, and to use emulator > > images. > > But that doesn't get this disks read in the first place! It seems to me > that the 1571 drives "gobble" old diskettes more easily than do other > drives. By "gobble" I mean peel the oxide right off the cookie, usually > accompanied by a squeal that says "your floppy's toast!" Interesting -- I've had no problems of that sort with any of the 1571s I've owned. In fact, I like them better than the 1541s, especially since alignment issues are much, much rarer. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Predestination was doomed from the start. ---------------------------------- From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Sep 4 00:27:15 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 22:27:15 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <200609031648.51185.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <44FB37C1.1050009@msm.umr.edu> <200609031648.51185.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44FBB933.7020303@msm.umr.edu> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Sunday 03 September 2006 04:14 pm, jim stephens wrote: > > >> >> >> > >What sort of problems would you expect doing this? > > SCSI Single ended external case from main system. They didn't have the HVD to cover the noise problems. I am a long time away from the arguments, but I understand that the problem was with mixing the pulses in the REQ and ACK in when one was in the selection phase, and getting bad target selects, by ringing on the data lines while doing selects. So the lines with the sharp rise times were put in the middle of the bundle and wrapped with grounds to keep that from happening.. There is a certified SCSI round cable especially for the round type cables, like you usually have with DB25 type cables. It isn't the same as you would use with RS232 or other types of 25 pin full cables. Jim From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Sep 4 00:30:19 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 22:30:19 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44FBB9EB.7060109@msm.umr.edu> Scott Quinn wrote: > I had heard that Apple did the DB-25 thing because the HD-50 hadn't been standardized yet and >they didn't have enough back-panel real estate on the Plus for a 50-pin ribbon/Centronics type. > > I recall the HD50 before I went off the comittee. I think apple did the DB25 cable then got it standardized. I don't recall who brought in the HD50 cable, but it may have been AMP directly who was a member of the committee doing cables as was required for whatever interface. I think the real estate problem is likely a reason over the connector. I would also think the cost would be a factor as well. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 00:36:36 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:36:36 +1200 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FBB9EB.7060109@msm.umr.edu> References: <44FBB9EB.7060109@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On 9/4/06, jim stephens wrote: > Scott Quinn wrote: > > > I had heard that Apple did the DB-25 thing because the HD-50 hadn't been > > standardized yet and they didn't have enough back-panel real estate on > > the Plus for a 50-pin ribbon/Centronics type. > > > I recall the HD50 before I went off the comittee. What year would that be? > I think apple did the DB25 cable then got it standardized. My recollection of the era was seeing the HD50 first on the NeXT. Dunno how that relates to the timing of the second machine I saw with one, the SPARC 1, but those are just the two platforms I remember being first with it. It was common in those days to have an HD-50 to DD50 cable so you could hang old Sun3-era stuff off of early SPARC-era stuff. I still have one or two running around, but don't use them much - ISTR the DD50 wasn't rated for SCSI-2 (noise or crosstalk or something similar). -ethan From bqt at softjar.se Sun Sep 3 13:25:59 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 20:25:59 +0200 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <200609030312.k833BjFT052536@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609030312.k833BjFT052536@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44FB1E37.6080307@softjar.se> David Griffith wrote: > On Sat, 2 Sep 2006, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >>Interesting. Looking (very quickly) at the Z-machine spec, it seems >>fairly simple. This gives me a good excuse to start on my PDP-8 >>emulator again - at least that way if I need more core, I just need to >>change a #define instead of starting a big long thread about >>semiconductor memory ;-) > > I don't mean to discourage you, but you might be in for more challenge > than you bargained for. I asked Brian Moriarty about the feasability of > porting a modern Z-machine emulator to 6502 machines such as the Commodore > 64 and Apple IIe. He replied that past V3, the abilities of these > machines were seriously taxed and that's why Infocom abandoned that class > of machines for their later work. The full discussion can be found in the > Frotz documentation. Based on this, I don't recommend using Frotz as a > starting point. > > Look instead at ZXZVM, a Z-machine emulator written in Z80 assembly for > PCW machines. It should be reasonably easy to port to CP/M and/or ZSDOS. > I'd love to see that one for my P112. Doing that may provide enough > insight to port it to the PDP8. Frotz??? Why on earth base it on Frotz? Frotz is written in C. You'll never get anything meaningful written in C to run on a PDP-8. Something written in Z80 assembly is just about equally meaningless. No, you'd just have to write it from scratch. Nothing strange about that, and doing something about V4 and V5 games isn't that difficult either. Given a little time I sure could whip one together, but for now I'll leave the exercise to someone else. I've already written one Z-machine interpreter in MACRO-11. It deals with anything V1 to V8, except for obvious limitations (no sounds, no graphics, no mouse...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 3 14:07:49 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 15:07:49 -0400 Subject: C128-1571 questions Message-ID: <0J5100HLF6G1TCJC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> >From out in left field.. Questions and opinions solicited on Commodore C128/1571. In my ecelectic collection of machines I generally have either DEC hardware, single board computers (IMSAI IMP48, KIM-1, SC/MP, Moto6800d1, NEC TK80 and others) and CP/M machines (S100, Ampro, SB180, Kaypro, Epson, Osborne). Also the occasional oddball like the TI99/4, TRS80 and a C128. What I'm up to is why have a C128 amoung all that? It's not a great CP/M machine. It's not very representitive of most CP/M machines and from using it it's an afterthought that primary to design. So I'm considering why I should keep it or unload it. I have no real exposure to the 6502 side of the system and the Commodore side of the world so there are gaps there. So I'm trying to figure out if there is something to explore and use or it's a "collection" item. The latter being something I have, keep operational but rarely if ever use for much. Flames not desired but opinions are. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 3 16:17:45 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 17:17:45 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128question) Message-ID: <0J5100H5MCGLVP13@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128question) > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:32:51 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 12:55 PM -0700 9/3/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 9/3/2006 at 8:42 PM Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >>>Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> What's a good substitute drive mechanism for the 1541/71? The drives >>>that >>>> come as factory original are pretty chintzy. Funny, I was just looking at the 1571 and it's a Newtronics/Mitsumi 48TPI two sided unit. The 1541 is from what I read a different beast. >>>I'm not sure you'd be able to swap it out - isn't the head preamp on the >>>1541 >>>motherboard, not a separate drive interface board? >>> >>Indeed it is. I hoped that perhaps generations of C128 hackers had found a >>way around this by now. Silly me. > >I think it's called hooking your C64/128 up to a PC via a X1541 (or >newer) cable, and using the PC as a drive via the appropriate >software. This is one of the solutions I'm thinking of trying. >Apparently it allows you to use the PC as a 1541, and to use emulator >images. Must be images as the '41 is GCR, the 1571 does do GCR and regualar soft sector. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 4 01:10:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:10:22 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: References: <44FBB9EB.7060109@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200609032310220120.114D22A5@10.0.0.252> On 9/4/2006 at 5:36 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: >My recollection of the era was seeing the HD50 first on the >NeXT. Dunno how that relates to the timing of the second >machine I saw with one, the SPARC 1, but those are just > the two platforms I remember being first with it. I first saw an HD50 on an ISA SCSI card sometime before the NeXT came out. I used the thing for an internal SCSI drive, but I recall looking at the connector on the bracket and asking myself "What the heck is this?". I wish I could remember which card that was--it definitely wasn't Adaptec. The DB25 isn't the "narrowest" connector used for SCSI--the Atari ST use a 19-pin DIN for its version of SCSI (ACSI) It wasn't exactly SCSI but it was very close. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 4 01:12:58 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 02:12:58 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <200609040354.k843sW8j009298@floodgap.com> References: <200609040354.k843sW8j009298@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200609040212.58898.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 September 2006 11:54 pm, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I think it's called hooking your C64/128 up to a PC via a X1541 (or > > > newer) cable, and using the PC as a drive via the appropriate > > > software. This is one of the solutions I'm thinking of trying. > > > Apparently it allows you to use the PC as a 1541, and to use emulator > > > images. > > > > But that doesn't get this disks read in the first place! It seems to me > > that the 1571 drives "gobble" old diskettes more easily than do other > > drives. By "gobble" I mean peel the oxide right off the cookie, usually > > accompanied by a squeal that says "your floppy's toast!" > > Interesting -- I've had no problems of that sort with any of the 1571s I've > owned. In fact, I like them better than the 1541s, especially since > alignment issues are much, much rarer. The one mechanical problem that I've seen in a fairly small number of 1571s is when the bit that normally flexes as the head assembly is opened and closed actually fractures on one side. That springy bit being broken would tend to have the effect of cocking the upper head at an angle, which might account for the munching of the media. They have alignment issues much less than 1541s because the 1571 typically includes a track zero optical sensor to tell the drive electronics when it's there so you don't have that constant hammering going on. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 4 01:19:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:19:25 -0700 Subject: C128-1571 questions In-Reply-To: <0J5100HLF6G1TCJC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5100HLF6G1TCJC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609032319250407.11556CD6@10.0.0.252> On 9/3/2006 at 3:07 PM Allison wrote: > The latter being something I have, keep >operational but rarely if ever use for much. I got my 1571 with a 128--I gave the 128 away and kept the 1571 for doing data conversoin. I honestly couldn't think of anything to do with the 128--I don't play games, so the appeal was very limited. I didn't bother with making a special cable--I just nibbled a hole for a DB-25S in the rear of the drive enclosure and wired up the XE-1541 components right on it. I use plain old "straight though" cable to connect it to a PeeCee's printer port. Yes, the 1571 uses the MItsumi/Newtronics drive and it isn't the best example of the species IMOHO. I'd like to use something a bit stouter such as something from Teac or YE Data or even MPI with it. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Sep 4 01:40:33 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:40:33 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 03 September 2006 03:08 pm, Don wrote: >> I assume a good goal is to minimize *connections* wherever >> possible. > > Why? - connections give rise to *broken* connections (i.e. cable gets bumped, etc.) - connectors almost invariably add C - connectors often introduce impedance mismatches (not from the connector, per se, but what's behind it) >> E.g., how much grief can I expect going *through* the slide >> scanner with DB25 coming in and Centronics going out? > > I'm not sure that you even _can_ do this without seeing some detailed > technical info on the scanner. Scanner has DB25 and Centronics connectors. Obviously, an attempt to be compatible with a variety of different applications. They are no doubt wired AS IF they were two "identical" connectors with the scanner itself sitting *logically* between them (though I have seen this PHYSICALLY violated so often on SCSI devices that I wouldn't make any bets on it!). So, it *suggests* running *into* the slide scanner on one connector and *out* (to the next downstream device) on the *other* connector. (scanners often only have a single connector which makes putting more than one on a given SCSI chain a bit of a chore) >> Is this just effectively a "DB25-Centronics" adapter with a device tap in >> the middle? > > No way to tell without looking... From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Sep 4 01:42:43 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:42:43 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <200609031648.51185.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <44FB37C1.1050009@msm.umr.edu> <200609031648.51185.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44FBCAE3.8020907@dakotacom.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 03 September 2006 04:14 pm, jim stephens wrote: >> Only when you go from 50 -> 68 pin should you beware of >> termination on the upper 8 bits added by the extra lines and >> what you have for an initiator and targets. >> >> There is not much science in a wide initiator selecting narrow >> devices on a chain, but there is when you have wide targets and >> a narrow initiator. > > What sort of problems would you expect doing this? Since SCSI devices are selected via individual data bits, a wide device having an ID > 7 would be selected via DATAn (where n > 7). A narrow device (initiator) doesn't *have* those data lines connected to it (hence no way for it to select a device > 7) > My first SCSI setup some years back involved a wide drive with an adapter, a > 50-wire ribbon cable, and an Adaptec 2842 which worked fine until a storm > rolling through here took out the drive, the 2842, and the MB. :-( > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 4 01:40:38 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 23:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44FB1E37.6080307@softjar.se> References: <200609030312.k833BjFT052536@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44FB1E37.6080307@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > Frotz??? > Why on earth base it on Frotz? Frotz is written in C. You'll never get > anything meaningful written in C to run on a PDP-8. > Something written in Z80 assembly is just about equally meaningless. I mentioned Frotz because it seems to be used as a base for all sorts of strange ports. The Z80 reference was part generalization and part wishful thinking. > No, you'd just have to write it from scratch. Nothing strange about > that, and doing something about V4 and V5 games isn't that difficult > either. Given a little time I sure could whip one together, but for now > I'll leave the exercise to someone else. > I've already written one Z-machine interpreter in MACRO-11. It deals > with anything V1 to V8, except for obvious limitations (no sounds, no > graphics, no mouse...) Where can I find this MACRO-11 interpreter? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Sep 4 01:48:16 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:48:16 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FB37C1.1050009@msm.umr.edu> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <44FB37C1.1050009@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44FBCC30.7030400@dakotacom.net> jim stephens wrote: > Don wrote: > >> But, it's got those wacky DB25 SCSI connectors. :-/ >> >> I have DB25-Centronics cables. And, DB25-HD50 adapters. >> The scanners have a hodge-podge of *different* connectors >> (sheesh! talk about "standards"... :< ). >> E.g., how much grief can I expect going *through* the slide >> scanner with DB25 coming in and Centronics going out? Is >> this just effectively a "DB25-Centronics" adapter with a >> device tap in the middle? > > The main thing to worry about when the DB25 is involved > is that the cable that is used is scsi certified. The round cable > that is usually used between the two connectors if it is there > has a special way of positioning the req and ack signals Yes, I can recall the cross-sectional illustration of the cable (I have the SCSI-2 spec here along with ENDL's bench reference...). No, Jim, I wouldn't be inclined to use an RS232 cable to connect the two DB25's! :> But, the only way I can *guess* that a cable is "suitably designed" is to *infer* that since it has, e.g., DB25 on one end and Centronics50 on the other, it *seems* likely that this was it's intended purpose (though who knows how much crap was spilled onto the Mac market, etc.) > in the bundle of wires. Other than that, the standard specified > the connector, so that should be no worry. > > I know early on, some cables were made and just used that > may not have been SCSI certified, and in early "vintage" systems > you may run across such, and have noise or performance > problems with the devices, if the REQ / ACK / Select signals > get messed up. > > Only when you go from 50 -> 68 pin should you beware of > termination on the upper 8 bits added by the extra lines and > what you have for an initiator and targets. Yeah, no problem there. > There is not much science in a wide initiator selecting narrow > devices on a chain, but there is when you have wide targets and > a narrow initiator. > > but you don't have that from what I read, so it is just a matter > of haveing a bit of everything in the chain connetorwise, but > the SCSI bus should all be the same. > Thanks! I guess I'll just do the "cross fingers and hope" trick. At least any problems will be more "visible" (and, less *hazardous* than if the devices were disks, etc.). From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 4 03:34:32 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 01:34:32 -0700 Subject: C64 Success! In-Reply-To: <44FB416C.7040705@arachelian.com> References: <44FA2B69.4040701@arachelian.com> <44FAAA4C.6080209@yahoo.co.uk> <44FAD649.608@arachelian.com> <44FB416C.7040705@arachelian.com> Message-ID: After a very, very long time I have one of my C64's up and running (after a lot of cleaning tonight I was actually able to find a good place to get to it). However, I was only able to get one of the two 1541's up and running, it seems that one of my Serial cables is bad :^( What are the odds of one of the cables going bad while in storage, while the hardware itself seems OK. Didn't have a Joystick with the box of cables and stuff, but did have a pair of paddles, and just finished playing a few games of Omega Race :^) Now if I could just find that Lunix floppy! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cc at corti-net.de Mon Sep 4 03:35:27 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:35:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44FB1E37.6080307@softjar.se> References: <200609030312.k833BjFT052536@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44FB1E37.6080307@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > No, you'd just have to write it from scratch. Nothing strange about that, and > doing something about V4 and V5 games isn't that difficult either. Given a > little time I sure could whip one together, but for now I'll leave the > exercise to someone else. > I've already written one Z-machine interpreter in MACRO-11. It deals with > anything V1 to V8, except for obvious limitations (no sounds, no graphics, no > mouse...) There I completely disagree! I've ported the Z-machine interpreter from InterTaskForce (written in C, and really good if you want to understand how the interpreter works) to the IBM 5110 (written in PALM assembler), including paging etc. But until now nobody else has ever wanted to try it on his 5110/5120... Seems all 5110 owners don't want to use their machines. Christian From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Mon Sep 4 05:30:12 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 22:30:12 +1200 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor.ath.cx, and SC/MP emulators Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20060904220145.04ae7190@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Hi everyone, I have been looking for Sipke de Wal's SC/MP emulator and of course found the note about his death in 2004 (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2004-May/041480.html). Looking at the fragments of his website still available in the internet archive and on Google, I see he had a lot of interesting pages and downloads many relating to old computers and processors. There are still many sites on the internet that link to his website that hasn't existed for 2 years now. It seems a pity that all that work has now disappeared when the storage requirements and bandwidth, to maintain such a site, are quite modest. I would be happy to host a copy of his site if it could be reconstructed. I've reconstructed his SC/MP webpage (but still don't have a copy of his emulator). So a number of questions: - Did anyone here download anything from his site that they've still got (webpages or files) ? - Does anyone have contact with his familiy ? - Did anyone know Sipke well enough to know whether he would approve of the resurection of his website? Any help appreciated. Tony. From djg at pdp8.net Mon Sep 4 08:31:53 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 09:31:53 -0400 Subject: Stuff available Message-ID: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Work is moving to a new building after 20 years so some strange stuff is appearing. If multiple people want the same thing the one offering something PDP-8 in trade wins, someone with immediate need, otherwise I randomly pick. You pay shipping from 20817 Maryland. Email me direct if interested. 1) Multibus I stuff. Bus analyzer - hook up to terminal and capture whats going on on bus Wirewrap proto card - .3, .4, .6 dip capable Possibly an extender card - We used to have them but haven't seem them appear yet. 2) Stardent manuals and distribution tapes - heavy. 3) Intel PL/M 86, I2ICE, AMD 29k, TI 340xx (graphics processor) manuals. From ray at arachelian.com Mon Sep 4 08:33:51 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 09:33:51 -0400 Subject: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128 question) In-Reply-To: <44FB5CAF.8090905@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200609031255150862.0F1A0262@10.0.0.252> <44FB3758.9080100@dsl.pipex.com> <200609031646.03748.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FB5CAF.8090905@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <44FC2B3F.5000200@arachelian.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > You could do something similar to the "IDEfile" interface - build a > box that emulates a 1541 and put a menu system on it. The big problem > would be with copy-protected software that used half-track scanning, > code upload and other nasty tricks. It's not such a big problem, if you give up the idea that floppies should be exactly 140K or whatever the normal storage was. You'll need some data structure that allows for other things, such as sync marks, sector and track ID marks and half tracks. You can then run that as a virtual 1541 with floppies. Perhaps, you could store the data as raw GCR over 80 tracks and run a 1541 emulator on top of that, and perhaps fake the timings of the track head movement and disk spin. You'll probably end up with something like 600K worth of data for a 140K floppy. :-) In the end, though, you're better off cracking the old software to run unprotected, which will make it work a lot better under C64/C128 emulators. From shreekrishna at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 09:35:13 2006 From: shreekrishna at gmail.com (shreekrishna) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 10:35:13 -0400 Subject: Stuff available In-Reply-To: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <44FC39A1.8070201@gmail.com> Dear All, I have a HP- PDP--11/64 machine which my professor was using back in 1987. We want to convert some data from that machine to the new format( .xls or .txt) . Do any of you have idea to convert the data from that machine to the recent one. The data is stored in the hard disc of that computer. So please suggest me how to convert the data. Thanks in advance. Shree. From skrishna at ncsu.edu Mon Sep 4 09:36:51 2006 From: skrishna at ncsu.edu (Shreekrishna) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 10:36:51 -0400 Subject: Regarding pdp-11 machine...URGENT In-Reply-To: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <44FC3A03.4070707@ncsu.edu> Dear All, I have a HP- PDP--11/64 machine which my professor was using back in 1987. We want to convert some data from that machine to the new format( .xls or .txt) . Do any of you have idea to convert the data from that machine to the recent one. The data is stored in the hard disc of that computer. So please suggest me how to convert the data. Thanks in advance. Shree. From fryers at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 11:10:28 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:10:28 +0100 Subject: Regarding pdp-11 machine...URGENT In-Reply-To: <44FC3A03.4070707@ncsu.edu> References: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> <44FC3A03.4070707@ncsu.edu> Message-ID: All, On 9/4/06, Shreekrishna wrote: > Dear All, [Data on PDP11/64 generated using some unknown application] > Do any of you have idea to convert the data from that > machine to the recent one. Yes, several. However using an electron microscope to inspect the media isn't practical. > The data is stored in the hard disc of that computer. So please suggest > me how to convert the data. Okay.I am still practicing to be able to read peoples minds, so I am going to have to ask a couple of questions; 1) Does the PDP11/64 still power up? 2) Do you know what application generated the data? 3) Do you have a copy of the application that generated the data? 4) Do you know how the data is formatted? Simon. > Thanks in advance. > > Shree. > > > -- Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Sep 4 13:07:51 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:07:51 +0200 Subject: Apple power supply Message-ID: <001c01c6d04d$0f003990$2101a8c0@finans> During an inexplicable urge to do some cleaning up, I found a powersupply for which I have no need. I believe it comes from an Apple (GS II?), and is identified as ASTEC, model AA13591 Input : 230V at 63W, 50/60 Hz. Output : V1 : +5VDC at 4.0Amp; V2 : +12VDC at 2.5Amp; V3 : -5VDC at 0.25Amp; V4 : -12VDC at 0.25Amp. It worked when I dismembered the system it came from. You can have it for P&P ; net weight 1250g Nico From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Sep 4 13:30:18 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 18:30:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, Don wrote: >>> E.g., how much grief can I expect going *through* the slide >>> scanner with DB25 coming in and Centronics going out? >> >> I'm not sure that you even _can_ do this without seeing some detailed >> technical info on the scanner. > > Scanner has DB25 and Centronics connectors. Obviously, an attempt > to be compatible with a variety of different applications. > They are no doubt wired AS IF they were two "identical" connectors > with the scanner itself sitting *logically* between them (though > I have seen this PHYSICALLY violated so often on SCSI devices > that I wouldn't make any bets on it!). > > So, it *suggests* running *into* the slide scanner on one connector > and *out* (to the next downstream device) on the *other* connector. > (scanners often only have a single connector which makes putting > more than one on a given SCSI chain a bit of a chore) Which won't work unless you can disable termination in the scanner, right? If the scanner was designed to only ever use one of the connectors (always be at the end of a chain) and not require external termination, that might not be possible... Alexey From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Sep 4 13:43:58 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 11:43:58 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44FC73EE.7060504@dakotacom.net> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, Don wrote: > >>>> E.g., how much grief can I expect going *through* the slide >>>> scanner with DB25 coming in and Centronics going out? >>> >>> I'm not sure that you even _can_ do this without seeing some detailed >>> technical info on the scanner. >> >> Scanner has DB25 and Centronics connectors. Obviously, an attempt >> to be compatible with a variety of different applications. >> They are no doubt wired AS IF they were two "identical" connectors >> with the scanner itself sitting *logically* between them (though >> I have seen this PHYSICALLY violated so often on SCSI devices >> that I wouldn't make any bets on it!). >> >> So, it *suggests* running *into* the slide scanner on one connector >> and *out* (to the next downstream device) on the *other* connector. >> (scanners often only have a single connector which makes putting >> more than one on a given SCSI chain a bit of a chore) > > Which won't work unless you can disable termination in the scanner, > right? If the scanner was designed to only ever use one of the > connectors (always be at the end of a chain) and not require external > termination, that might not be possible... Scanner does not have an internal terminator. Currently terminated with a feed-thru Centronics50 terminator on the *one* connection to the Centronics port. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 13:46:47 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 13:46:47 -0500 Subject: Stuff available In-Reply-To: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <000101c6d052$7a0e96f0$4200a8c0@main> Hi, Could the 340 xx items be for the DEC VT340? I have almost any 8 items you may need. Thanks, Paul 217-586-5361 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of djg at pdp8.net Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:32 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Stuff available Work is moving to a new building after 20 years so some strange stuff is appearing. If multiple people want the same thing the one offering something PDP-8 in trade wins, someone with immediate need, otherwise I randomly pick. You pay shipping from 20817 Maryland. Email me direct if interested. 1) Multibus I stuff. Bus analyzer - hook up to terminal and capture whats going on on bus Wirewrap proto card - .3, .4, .6 dip capable Possibly an extender card - We used to have them but haven't seem them appear yet. 2) Stardent manuals and distribution tapes - heavy. 3) Intel PL/M 86, I2ICE, AMD 29k, TI 340xx (graphics processor) manuals. From bqt at softjar.se Mon Sep 4 11:43:10 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 18:43:10 +0200 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <200609041611.k84GAkVw075912@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609041611.k84GAkVw075912@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44FC579E.9030506@softjar.se> David Griffith skrev: > On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > David Griffith wrote: > > > > > > Frotz??? > > > Why on earth base it on Frotz? Frotz is written in C. You'll never get > > > anything meaningful written in C to run on a PDP-8. > > > Something written in Z80 assembly is just about equally meaningless. > > I mentioned Frotz because it seems to be used as a base for all sorts of > strange ports. The Z80 reference was part generalization and part wishful > thinking. You might be right there. :-) > > > No, you'd just have to write it from scratch. Nothing strange about > > > that, and doing something about V4 and V5 games isn't that difficult > > > either. Given a little time I sure could whip one together, but for now > > > I'll leave the exercise to someone else. > > > I've already written one Z-machine interpreter in MACRO-11. It deals > > > with anything V1 to V8, except for obvious limitations (no sounds, no > > > graphics, no mouse...) > > Where can I find this MACRO-11 interpreter? ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/zemu.tar Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Mon Sep 4 11:49:04 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 18:49:04 +0200 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <200609041611.k84GAkVw075912@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609041611.k84GAkVw075912@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44FC5900.5040706@softjar.se> Christian Corti skrev: On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > No, you'd just have to write it from scratch. Nothing strange about that, and > > > doing something about V4 and V5 games isn't that difficult either. Given a > > > little time I sure could whip one together, but for now I'll leave the > > > exercise to someone else. > > > I've already written one Z-machine interpreter in MACRO-11. It deals with > > > anything V1 to V8, except for obvious limitations (no sounds, no graphics, no > > > mouse...) > > There I completely disagree! I've ported the Z-machine interpreter from > InterTaskForce (written in C, and really good if you want to understand > how the interpreter works) to the IBM 5110 (written in PALM assembler), > including paging etc. But until now nobody else has ever wanted to try it > on his 5110/5120... Seems all 5110 owners don't want to use their machines. :-) However, have you ever programmed on a PDP-8? If so, you would realize that it really requires you to do things a bit different from what people nowadays do. You have 4K word pages. One word is 12 bits. The addressing style of instructions really limit most routines to what you can fit into 128 words. No stack... Well, there are a lot of things to play around with. Like I said, it wouldn't be difficult to write a Z-machine interpreter for the PDP-8, but you'd better not base it on something written in C. You might pick an idea or two from Frotz, for instance, but you'd have to rewrite that as well to fit with the PDP-8. And you have almost no OS to support you either, so you'd have to implement the I/O as well, and figure out which, if any, clock you have, if you want to implement timed input. Johnny From steve at radiorobots.com Mon Sep 4 13:51:42 2006 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 14:51:42 -0400 Subject: Want: Sun-2 System Message-ID: <44FC75BE.2010002@radiorobots.com> Hi, Looking for a Sun-2 system for vintage apps. Please contact me off-list if you know of any for sale. Thanks, Steve Boston From brain at jbrain.com Mon Sep 4 15:39:00 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 15:39:00 -0500 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <200609031309.03237.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609020323.k823LHBK030646@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200609021300.44988.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FA5269.1050709@jbrain.com> <200609031309.03237.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44FC8EE4.8010605@jbrain.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Oh really? I was wondering what they were trying to do there. I was also of > the impression that the +4 was supposed to be a replacement for the c64, and > that the c16 (which I think I may have seen _one_ of perhaps) was supposed to > replace the vic20. But I'm not really sure. > Originally, it was designed to replace the C116, to hit the TS1000 price point. Jack wanted a CBM in every house. It was designed in Japan, and eventually mutated into the C116. For the same price as Clive's TS1K, it had color and ran a bit faster. Then, and reports vary as to why, CBM tried to beef it up into an entire product line. It was designed for absolute low parts count (the design puts VIC-like sound back in the video, it lacks sprites, etc.) The CV364 (with the speech synthesizer) would be the top end, with the 264 coming in second. Cameron can provide more detail on when the C16 (116 spec in a VIC/64 case) was added, I think it came later in the process. In any case, they they then recruited Jim Butterfield to intro the units at CES 1984. Jack told me he went to the prep meeting, and saw the machines. He thought they were all nice to fit below the 64 in the product line. They then informed him that they didn;t want to cannibalize 64 sales, so they were positioning the +4 series as a premium business product. Jim thought that was a dumb idea. It tanked, as it should have. Herd relates going around during the 84 show and vendors were yelling at him about the units being incompatible. He assured them not too worry about porting SW to the unit, as it would die. This is why he fought hard for the C128 to be compatible with "something" And the little C116 that originally held so much promise? A small production was dumped in Japan, where they were not received all that well. Mine is a prototype unit, which is why it is NTSC. Either Cameron or Bo Zimmerman has a production unit, which I think is PAL. > I read somewhere that the CP/M cartridge never actually worked all that well. > If it worked at all. > Correct. Bil Herd notes that the design didn;t fully tristate the busses, which it needs to do for the VIC to work. > I have the 64's service manual around here someplace, and maybe I should look > at the differences between the various boards, I don't remember anything in > particular there that would account for this. I do remember a couple of > lines of that port being labeled "Z80" and "DMA", which I never saw anything > use. > Bil hangs out in comp.sys.amiga.* at times, maybe you can email him. I've heard from numerous folks that on early boards work, but I never cared enough to determine why. > I also have the 128 manual on hand as well, but never really dug into the > workings of that MMU chip. As a service center and wanting to have a > complete set of spares on hand I did get a hold of some of those, and some > of the PLA chips that were used in the 128, as well as a number of the parts > peculiar to the 1571, and ended up never using any of them. I don't know if > they'd be useful in anything else offhand. > Well, technically, I'm talking about the ROMH, ROML, EXROM, etc. lines of the 64, which would change the memory map. The IC controlling them is the PLA. Calling it an MMU (given the current usage of the term) is probably misleading. The C128 has a better attempt at an MMU, where memory can be programmatically remapped. IN essence, the EXROM, ROMH, ROML were only intended to be changed upon powerup, but on the 64, they could be changed at any time to affect the memory map. Some carts would use this to an advantage. The C128 had issues with this usage of the lines. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 4 16:05:18 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 14:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <44FC8EE4.8010605@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Sep 4, 6 03:39:00 pm" Message-ID: <200609042105.k84L5IKk017212@floodgap.com> > Then, and reports vary as to why, CBM tried to beef it up into an entire > product line. It was designed for absolute low parts count (the design > puts VIC-like sound back in the video, it lacks sprites, etc.) The > CV364 (with the speech synthesizer) would be the top end, with the 264 > coming in second. Cameron can provide more detail on when the C16 (116 > spec in a VIC/64 case) was added, I think it came later in the process. It was a pretty late add in the 264 line. My best guess is Q1 1985. Here are some more notes on the 264 series: http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/x64.html > And the little C116 that originally held so much promise? A small > production was dumped in Japan, where they were not received all that > well. Mine is a prototype unit, which is why it is NTSC. Either > Cameron or Bo Zimmerman has a production unit, which I think is PAL. I have a PAL production unit, but it was converted to NTSC by its previous owner (a Kernal and crystal swap are all that's necessary; a Kernal from an NTSC 16 will do nicely); I demoed it at VCF a couple years back. I hate the 116 keyboard -- it's bad even amongst chiclet keyboards. > Well, technically, I'm talking about the ROMH, ROML, EXROM, etc. lines > of the 64, which would change the memory map. The IC controlling them > is the PLA. Calling it an MMU (given the current usage of the term) is > probably misleading. The C128 has a better attempt at an MMU, where > memory can be programmatically remapped. IN essence, the EXROM, ROMH, > ROML were only intended to be changed upon powerup, but on the 64, they > could be changed at any time to affect the memory map. Some carts would > use this to an advantage. The C128 had issues with this usage of the lines. The Magic Voice comes to mind ... -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- NO, I'M NOT AN ELITIST...WHY DO YOU ASK, PEASANT? -- Rusty Spoon ----------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 4 16:09:20 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 15:09:20 -0600 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44FC5900.5040706@softjar.se> References: <200609041611.k84GAkVw075912@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44FC5900.5040706@softjar.se> Message-ID: <44FC9600.7040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Johnny Billquist wrote: > However, have you ever programmed on a PDP-8? > If so, you would realize that it really requires you to do things a bit > different from what people nowadays do. > You have 4K word pages. One word is 12 bits. The addressing style of > instructions really limit most routines to what you can fit into 128 > words. No stack... Well 12 bits holds 2 6 bit chars nicely :) I suspect the best way to do this is to convert Z-machine data into something better suited for 12/24 bit processing. > Well, there are a lot of things to play around with. > Like I said, it wouldn't be difficult to write a Z-machine interpreter > for the PDP-8, but you'd better not base it on something written in C. > You might pick an idea or two from Frotz, for instance, but you'd have > to rewrite that as well to fit with the PDP-8. Well the PDP-8 is easy to program in -- 8 instructions types. :) > And you have almost no OS to support you either, so you'd have to > implement the I/O as well, and figure out which, if any, clock you have, > if you want to implement timed input. Oddly you have better OS support now with the emulators and some new-ish hardware that uses ide drives. > Johnny From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 4 16:08:31 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:08:31 -0400 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200609041708.31390.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 04 September 2006 02:40 am, Don wrote: <...> > >> E.g., how much grief can I expect going *through* the slide > >> scanner with DB25 coming in and Centronics going out? > > > > I'm not sure that you even _can_ do this without seeing some detailed > > technical info on the scanner. > > Scanner has DB25 and Centronics connectors. Obviously, an attempt > to be compatible with a variety of different applications. > They are no doubt wired AS IF they were two "identical" connectors > with the scanner itself sitting *logically* between them (though > I have seen this PHYSICALLY violated so often on SCSI devices > that I wouldn't make any bets on it!). Well, that's the assumption that I'm wondering about, but then I haven't gotten into the insides of too many of those units, so I just don't know... > So, it *suggests* running *into* the slide scanner on one connector > and *out* (to the next downstream device) on the *other* connector. > (scanners often only have a single connector which makes putting > more than one on a given SCSI chain a bit of a chore) I have a couple of external SCSI CDROM drives here that are like that, too. And have not had much success in finding any sort of a "Y-adapter" or something I could use to deal with that. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ben_r4 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 4 16:10:03 2006 From: ben_r4 at yahoo.com (Ben R.) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 14:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Want: Sun-2 System In-Reply-To: <44FC75BE.2010002@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <20060904211003.53887.qmail@web50906.mail.yahoo.com> Steve, I am afraid i don't have exactly what you are looking for, but perhaps you would be abble to help me if you don't mind. I am looking to sell my 1970 data general cs-30. It is in full working condition will all the parts and all software necessary for operation. If you happen to know of anybody who would be interested i would really appreciate your help. thank you and sorry i couldn't help you with your search. -Ben Steve Stutman wrote: Hi, Looking for a Sun-2 system for vintage apps. Please contact me off-list if you know of any for sale. Thanks, Steve Boston --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 4 16:10:35 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:10:35 -0400 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FBCC30.7030400@dakotacom.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <44FB37C1.1050009@msm.umr.edu> <44FBCC30.7030400@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200609041710.35152.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 04 September 2006 02:48 am, Don wrote: > > The main thing to worry about when the DB25 is involved > > is that the cable that is used is scsi certified. The round cable > > that is usually used between the two connectors if it is there > > has a special way of positioning the req and ack signals > > Yes, I can recall the cross-sectional illustration of the > cable (I have the SCSI-2 spec here along with ENDL's bench > reference...). No, Jim, I wouldn't be inclined to use an > RS232 cable to connect the two DB25's! :> Any reason a 25-wire _ribbon_ cable wouldn't be useful for this? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 4 16:17:01 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:17:01 -0400 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <44FC8EE4.8010605@jbrain.com> References: <200609020323.k823LHBK030646@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200609031309.03237.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FC8EE4.8010605@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200609041717.01946.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 04 September 2006 04:39 pm, Jim Brain wrote: > > I also have the 128 manual on hand as well, but never really dug into > > the workings of that MMU chip. As a service center and wanting to have a > > complete set of spares on hand I did get a hold of some of those, and > > some of the PLA chips that were used in the 128, as well as a number of > > the parts peculiar to the 1571, and ended up never using any of them. I > > don't know if they'd be useful in anything else offhand. > > Well, technically, I'm talking about the ROMH, ROML, EXROM, etc. lines > of the 64, which would change the memory map. The IC controlling them > is the PLA. Calling it an MMU (given the current usage of the term) is > probably misleading. Just to clarify, if we're talking about the 128, there was both the 8721 PLA in there _and_ the 8722 MMU (I hope I got those numbers right). > The C128 has a better attempt at an MMU, where memory can be > programmatically remapped. Ok, this makes it look like you were referring to the 64 above, which I was not. When I said "MMU" I was talking about the 128 only. > IN essence, the EXROM, ROMH, ROML were only intended to be changed upon > powerup, but on the 64, they could be changed at any time to affect the > memory map. Some carts would use this to an advantage. The C128 had issues > with this usage of the lines. Gotcha. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 4 16:37:39 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 16:37:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) Message-ID: <200609042137.k84LbahR063859@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > My father built himself a board which was simila r > but more elaborate: > > he could select among (1) a small (7.5W?) light > bulb, (2) a large > > (100W?) light bulb, (3) a high-wattage heating > element that was still > > under the breaker trip current for that mains > circuit (an iron, I > > think), or (4) no limiter at all. > > Another useful limiter (to repleace (3) in your > setup is a 1000W tungsten > halogen bulb (e.g. one of those 'security lamps'. > They're pretty cheap > now). > >> snip << > > -tony > Tungsten bulbs cheap??!!!! The ones we have to buy for equipment at our lab cost like ?500 (GBP). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Sep 4 16:30:37 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 16:30:37 -0500 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44FC9AFD.5060608@brutman.com> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > Which won't work unless you can disable termination in the scanner, > right? If the scanner was designed to only ever use one of the > connectors (always be at the end of a chain) and not require external > termination, that might not be possible... > > Alexey > > It really depends on the scanner. My HP 4C has both connectors, one for input and one for output. A SCSI Zip drive hangs off of it. I've never seen a SCSI scanner that had two different ports but only let you use one. Seems contrary to the way SCSI is cabled. If it has two ports, it probably lets you pass through. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Sep 4 16:33:18 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 14:33:18 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <200609041708.31390.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> <200609041708.31390.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44FC9B9E.50809@dakotacom.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 04 September 2006 02:40 am, Don wrote: >> So, it *suggests* running *into* the slide scanner on one connector >> and *out* (to the next downstream device) on the *other* connector. >> (scanners often only have a single connector which makes putting >> more than one on a given SCSI chain a bit of a chore) > > I have a couple of external SCSI CDROM drives here that are like that, too. > And have not had much success in finding any sort of a "Y-adapter" or > something I could use to deal with that. For Centronics50 connections, there are cables that have three connectors on them (one on each end plus an additional one on the BACK of one of the ends). Not an ideal solution as it can lead to some nasty stub lengths... From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Sep 4 16:42:56 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:42:56 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: 11/64 conversion] Message-ID: <44FC9DE0.8050504@splab.cas.neu.edu> Folks, I asked similar questions directly and got the following answers. So, don't know if it is RT, RSX, or RSTS, or even a flavor of Unix. Joe Heck -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: 11/64 conversion Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 12:57:43 -0400 From: Shreekrishna To: joe heck References: <44FC51AB.1020600 at splab.cas.neu.edu> Hello, I have only small information. My advisor was using the computer long back. Now the computer is in University of Texas austin. He said that the data is in PDP computer and our research group need the data . SO we need to convert the data. It is in some ASCII format though I dont know the type. So i need to ask .can the data be converted to recent file formats. File type is some ascii format. It was read from a machine. so they are basically read from the machines. compueter boot and we have the hard disc and floopy in which the data is stored. So tell me...how shall i go about...do reply thanks shree. joe heck wrote: > What is the operating system? > What are the file types or extensions? > What program created them? > What peripherals are on the PDP computer? > Does the computer boot? > How much data are you talking about? > > You need to post the answers as best as you can to these questions > before most people will even try to help. > > Joe From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Sep 4 17:13:43 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 18:13:43 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: 11/64 conversion] In-Reply-To: Message from joe heck of "Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:42:56 EDT." <44FC9DE0.8050504@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <200609042213.k84MDhWv015717@mwave.heeltoe.com> If the disk will spin up, and it has a unibus interface, like a UDA-50, then i would move it to a working 11/44, boot up unix and make an image copy of the disk and then copy it over the network to a linux computer. no doubt a skilled vms person could do the same with vms. (because, well, how big could the disk image be? :-) Or you could jam a unibus scsi card in and copy an image of the disk to a JAZZ drive. Once the image is on a linux machine you have (as we all know) a large number of forensic tools... Not the least of which is simh, which you could possible use to boot the original os. Worst case you should be able to extract files from the file system with putr or other tools. heh. send me the disk and I'll take a crack at it. I think we need a picture of the disk drive to identify what it is. (and here's to hoping it's not an RP or RM drive :-) -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 4 17:21:39 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 15:21:39 -0700 Subject: Want: Sun-2 System Message-ID: > Looking for a Sun-2 system for vintage apps. Someone at MIT wrote a Sun-2 simulator. http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~fredette/tme/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 4 18:24:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 16:24:13 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FC9AFD.5060608@brutman.com> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> <44FC9AFD.5060608@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200609041624130479.14FFA919@10.0.0.252> On 9/4/2006 at 4:30 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >I've never seen a SCSI scanner that had two different ports but only let >you use one. Seems contrary to the way SCSI is cabled. If it has two >ports, it probably lets you pass through. My HP ScanJet C6270 is SCSI and has but a single HD50 connector. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 4 18:12:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 00:12:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: <200609032246.38609.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 3, 6 10:46:38 pm Message-ID: > > I would seriously recomend against rectifying the mains for something > > like this. Non-isolated PSUs have the nasty habit of making things live > > that you least expect, and may kill you (or worse, damage a classic > > computer). > > Oh, I wasn't suggesting that, simply pointing out that once you got your > isolation a simple rectifier would do the trick just fine... Depends on the turns ratio of the transformers... > > I've had my experiences with non-isolated equipment, more than I ever wanted, > and don't plan to build any to add to that. :-) Me too. I grew up fixing series-string radios and TVs (until the coming of 'baseband' audio and video sockets, such as the SCART connector, most TVs sold in the UK, even semiconductor-based ones, had a live chassis). I don't much care for working on such units. What amazes me is that in the 1950s and 1960s, UK magazines published several educational courses. Typically you'd start by building a crystal set, then turn it into a 1-valver (leaky grid detector), then add audio stages, RF stages, and maybe end up with a superhet. Thing is, you got the HT (B+) by half-wave rectifying the mains. The exposed metal chasis was connected to mains neutral. And you had headphones. You know, that could easily turn into an electric chair... > > > If you use back-to-back transformers as I've suggsted, the actual voltage > > got get out depends on the turns rations, of course. Maybe a simple > > rectifier will be enough, maybe you need a doubler. > > Many suggestions that I've seen illustrated like that suggest using two > identical transformers, which should get you the same thing out as you put > in. YEs, but there's no _requirement_ to do that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 4 18:23:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 00:23:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609042137.k84LbahR063859@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Sep 4, 6 04:37:39 pm Message-ID: > > Another useful limiter (to repleace (3) in your > > setup is a 1000W tungsten=20 > > halogen bulb (e.g. one of those 'security lamps'. > > They're pretty cheap=20 > Tungsten bulbs cheap??!!!! > > The ones we have to buy for equipment at > our lab cost like =A3500 (GBP). It depends on the bulb. I've seen those sercurity lamps, including one bulb, sell for under 5 quid. Remvoe the pasive IR module (and raid it for components ;-)), the rest of the lamp makes in ideal current limiter for larger stuff. And the replacement bulbs are available for a few pounds... YEs, there are expensive bulbs around (the 10kQ TV studio ones, some the metal halide arc lamps used in video projectors, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 4 18:07:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 00:07:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609031701560838.0FFBD8B0@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 3, 6 05:01:56 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/3/2006 at 11:54 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >No, I'm not afraid of the mains, but I do treat it with respsect. > > Especially when your mains voltage is twice that of the US and Canada. Is > the current supplied to a wall receptacle just as high? Our 120v Our wall socksets are rated at 13A, but are almost always wired on what we call a 'ring main' (a complete ring (electrically) of cable with many socksets connected to it), which is protected by a 30A fuse or breaker. The mains plugs contain a cartridge fuse, values from 1A to 13A are available, nut only 3A and 13A (and sometimes 5A) are commonly seen. As a result, I feel wall-warts are dangerous in the UK. They do not contain na internal fuse, so could in theory draw nearly 30A from the mains before the circuit fuse failed. The mains transformer primaty of the wall-wart is supposed to burn out in a safe way, my experience suggests this is not always the case. I _never_ use wall-wards plugged straiht into the wall. Putting them on a fuesed extension lead is somwhat safer. Altough personally I prefer a decent transformer with fuses in both priamry and secondary circuits. > receptacles are typically "protected" with a 15A or 20A circuit breaker. > > Another thing to have on your shop outlets is GFI protection. It could > save your life. It can also be a right royal pain when a main filter has enough unbalanced current to trip it. Ad it won't protect you if you're relatively well insulated from ground but manage to connect yourself between live and neutral or equivalent. I use a GFI (RCCD, whatever it's called this week) in placees where there could be dangerous leakage (sockets for outdoor appliances, in the darkroom (a mixture of electrics and water, after all :-)), and so on. But I don't have one on my workbence, nor do I want one. -tony From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 18:34:52 2006 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 16:34:52 -0700 Subject: F/S HP 9830A system Message-ID: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> Hello I have for sale a hp9830 calculator/computer system wich includes the hp9830A with some extras from infotek(not sure what), a infotek fd-30 mass memory unit, a hp9862A calc plotter, a hp9866A thermal printer, a hp9869A card reader, all the cables, extra paper for the printer box of extra cards for the reader some cassette tapes for the 9830 hp sys test cassette a hp math pac vol 1 cassette ) all the io hookups 4 the printer plotter card reader and the infotek mass memory unit. plus the following manuals sys test instruction manual dated may 8th 1975, quick ref tp 9830Abasic july 1 1975, plotter control rom manual, printer manual, hp9830A 11272Bextended i/o rom manual, plotter pac, 11274B string variables Rom manual, 11270B matrix operations rom manual, 11278Bbatch basic rom manual, math pac manual, 11279B Advanced programming I rom manual, 11289B Advanced programming II rom manual, 11202A I/O interface Instalationb and service manual. If anybody wants any of this let me know if not clamed in a couple weeks its going to E-bay pictures will be up soon Chris Halarewich From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Sep 4 18:38:17 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:38:17 -0600 Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44FCB8E9.3020602@e-bbes.com> David Griffith wrote: > I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a > "classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some examples: > > P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs > ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. Were there any SBCs with the later z280 & z380 chips ? A short google search didn't find anything. So, anybody here knows of any SBC with the z280, z380 (or similar ?) chips ? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Sep 4 18:51:18 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 16:51:18 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <200609041624130479.14FFA919@10.0.0.252> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> <44FC9AFD.5060608@brutman.com> <200609041624130479.14FFA919@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FCBBF6.3050901@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/4/2006 at 4:30 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> I've never seen a SCSI scanner that had two different ports but only let >> you use one. Seems contrary to the way SCSI is cabled. If it has two >> ports, it probably lets you pass through. > > My HP ScanJet C6270 is SCSI and has but a single HD50 connector. Scanners vary widely. I have one with DB25&Cent50; another with HD50&USB; another with just Cent50; another with just HD50. I know cheapr scanners also exist with parallel port interfaces, etc. From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Sep 4 18:57:12 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 19:57:12 -0400 Subject: Want: Sun-2 System In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Sep 2006 15:21:39 PDT." Message-ID: <200609042357.k84NvC4a008314@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > >> Looking for a Sun-2 system for vintage apps. > >Someone at MIT wrote a Sun-2 simulator. > >http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~fredette/tme/ Ah! that is so cool! I used to run a sun2 uucp noin my back room at home (back in the Paleozoic). so, now I just need to sunos boot tapes... http://www.soupwizard.com/sun2/sunos/sunos_4.0_sun2.tar.gz -brad From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Sep 4 19:05:37 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 19:05:37 -0500 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <200609041624130479.14FFA919@10.0.0.252> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> <44FC9AFD.5060608@brutman.com> <200609041624130479.14FFA919@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FCBF51.5050104@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/4/2006 at 4:30 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> I've never seen a SCSI scanner that had two different ports but only let >> you use one. Seems contrary to the way SCSI is cabled. If it has two >> ports, it probably lets you pass through. > > My HP ScanJet C6270 is SCSI and has but a single HD50 connector. > > Cheers, > Chuck What did I miss here? You C6270 has one port. I was talking about scanners that have two .. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 4 19:03:50 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? In-Reply-To: <44FCB8E9.3020602@e-bbes.com> References: <44FCB8E9.3020602@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Sep 2006, e.stiebler wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a > > "classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some examples: > > > > P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs > > ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. > > Were there any SBCs with the later z280 & z380 chips ? > A short google search didn't find anything. So, anybody here knows of > any SBC with the z280, z380 (or similar ?) chips ? I've been pondering a redesign of the P112 for a while. I'll probably investigate using a z280 or z380 for a brand-new design. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 4 19:37:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:37:26 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FCBBF6.3050901@dakotacom.net> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> <44FC9AFD.5060608@brutman.com> <200609041624130479.14FFA919@10.0.0.252> <44FCBBF6.3050901@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200609041737260546.1542B184@10.0.0.252> On 9/4/2006 at 4:51 PM Don wrote: >Scanners vary widely. I have one with DB25&Cent50; another >with HD50&USB; another with just Cent50; another with just >HD50. I know cheapr scanners also exist with parallel >port interfaces, etc. Yup--the aforementioned ScanJet also has a USB interface. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 4 19:38:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:38:34 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <44FCBF51.5050104@brutman.com> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> <44FC9AFD.5060608@brutman.com> <200609041624130479.14FFA919@10.0.0.252> <44FCBF51.5050104@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200609041738340734.1543BBE0@10.0.0.252> On 9/4/2006 at 7:05 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >What did I miss here? You C6270 has one port. I was talking about >scanners that have two .. I misunderstood. The C6270 also has a USB port--but I assume you mean two of a given type... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 4 19:47:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:47:13 -0700 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609041747130570.154BA694@10.0.0.252> On 9/5/2006 at 12:07 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I use a GFI (RCCD, whatever it's called this week) in placees where there >could be dangerous leakage (sockets for outdoor appliances, in the >darkroom (a mixture of electrics and water, after all :-)), and so on. >But I don't have one on my workbence, nor do I want one. Is one side of your mains grounded? Here in the US, the most common distribution is a 120-0-120v distribution transformer with the center tap connected to ground. So, for common 120v wall receptacles, one side (in addition to the grounding prong) is grounded. I've popped the GFI on my workbench outlet on several occasions--in every case, it involved a "hot chassis" piece of equipment. Sparks are pretty, but I'll take the inconvenience, thank you. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Sep 4 19:57:35 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:57:35 -0700 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609041747130570.154BA694@10.0.0.252> References: <200609041747130570.154BA694@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FCCB7F.6000707@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/5/2006 at 12:07 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >> I use a GFI (RCCD, whatever it's called this week) in placees where there >> could be dangerous leakage (sockets for outdoor appliances, in the >> darkroom (a mixture of electrics and water, after all :-)), and so on. >> But I don't have one on my workbence, nor do I want one. > > Is one side of your mains grounded? Here in the US, the most common > distribution is a 120-0-120v distribution transformer with the center tap > connected to ground. So, for common 120v wall receptacles, one side (in > addition to the grounding prong) is grounded. I've popped the GFI on my > workbench outlet on several occasions--in every case, it involved a "hot > chassis" piece of equipment. Sparks are pretty, but I'll take the > inconvenience, thank you. Yup. The first time you saw/drill through a power cord that has mysteriously found its way under your workpiece, the trip to the electrical panel cussing loudly finds you saying "thank you" under your breath. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Sep 4 19:59:21 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:59:21 -0700 Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? In-Reply-To: <44FCB8E9.3020602@e-bbes.com> References: <44FCB8E9.3020602@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44FCCBE9.3010105@dakotacom.net> e.stiebler wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a >> "classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some >> examples: >> >> P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs >> ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. > > Were there any SBCs with the later z280 & z380 chips ? > A short google search didn't find anything. So, anybody here knows of > any SBC with the z280, z380 (or similar ?) chips ? Not sure of "commercially available" SBC's but I know of a few production designs of each. [N.B. I assume the "2780" in the subject line is intended to refer to 280's -- though there was also a *7180*] From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 4 20:56:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 18:56:51 -0700 Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? In-Reply-To: <44FCCBE9.3010105@dakotacom.net> References: <44FCB8E9.3020602@e-bbes.com> <44FCCBE9.3010105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200609041856510628.158B671E@10.0.0.252> On 9/4/2006 at 5:59 PM Don wrote: >Not sure of "commercially available" SBC's but I know of a few >production designs of each. Well, I assume that you're excluding the very pricey development kids from Zillog (something like $500+ for the Z380)! I thought I might find something in the Zworld product line, but it's all Rabbits now. But I know they offered Z180 boards at one time. BTW, Zworld's becoming part of Rabbit next month, according to their website. OTOH, Zilog seems to be offering the eZ80 Acclaim kit for a semi-reasonable price (about $100). Cheers, Chuck From djg at pdp8.net Mon Sep 4 21:13:05 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 22:13:05 -0400 Subject: Stuff available II Message-ID: <200609050213.k852D5402007@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Since TI 340 stuff was was people were most interested in there are also some TI 32010/20/C30 manuals in the pile. Those are the earlier DSP chips. Let me know if I should grab them. Same you pay shipping from 20817 From jrasite at eoni.com Mon Sep 4 22:38:44 2006 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:38:44 -0700 Subject: Apple SCSI In-Reply-To: <200609041738340734.1543BBE0@10.0.0.252> References: <44FB2835.7090309@dakotacom.net> <200609031641.42639.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FBCA61.7040701@dakotacom.net> <44FC9AFD.5060608@brutman.com> <200609041624130479.14FFA919@10.0.0.252> <44FCBF51.5050104@brutman.com> <200609041738340734.1543BBE0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4CEF5965-F0C7-4FB2-835C-4B47F43792CB@eoni.com> Just as a side note here, IIRC the Apple OneScanners all were spec'd to be at the end of the SCSI chain. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 23:35:09 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:35:09 +1200 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Mostek MK5002 4-digit counter/display driver? Message-ID: I have a couple of ancient modules on the shelf here - they are the size of an old 3.5 digit DVM module with 4 MAN71 7-segment displays - I have figured out that the main chip is a Mostek MK5002 counter/display driver, but I can't find any data sheets on Google (just auctions for the chip). I'm guessing that it might have been used in some sort of pinball or arcade machine because of some of the hits I've gotten, but I'd just like to be able to reverse-engineer the pinout of the edge connector on this module. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 23:52:23 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 00:52:23 -0400 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <20060903121058.34D2DBA4172@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200608310827.JAA19962@citadel.metropolis.local> <200608311903.36801.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F99168.9070306@gjcp.net> <20060903121058.34D2DBA4172@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Just as a benchmark, if you're buying random new-old-stock (still new in boxes) > tubes in quantity, do not expect to pay more than a few pennies per tube > (and even then that might be too much!) This is true if the mix is completely random with a majority of hopeless TV series string types or the tubes are not trusted to be NOS (_always_ check the tubes in the boxes - often the old TV guys would reuse old boxes for used tubes). Tim is correct - any pile that fails these two tests are pretty much worthless. The boxes are woth more than the tubes (no joke). If, however, the tubes are known to be new old stock AND are reasonably useful (for US receiving types, look for 1, 6 and 12 volt types), a fair buying price is quite a bit more than pennies per tube. It should be noted that nearly all computer rated tubes have RMA-EIA numbers. There are a LOT of them, especially the 12AU7oids, so you need to know which ones are the good ones. Just because it looks like a 12AU7 and has a four digit number does not mean it is computer (or audio) rated - many of the sub-species are rated for other uses - mobile, ruggedness, and so forth. The best way to decode all the number is to just get a copy of Ludwell Sibley's TUBE LORE. I do not know if anyone here collects computer rated tubes, but I have an extra 1680 available for trade. This is a very early computer rated 6BE6 (the thing is also branded 6BE6), and is extremely difficult to find, as it was obsoleted very quickly by the 5915. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 5 00:21:32 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:21:32 +1200 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Mostek MK5002 4-digit counter/display driver? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/5/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a couple of ancient modules on the shelf here - they are the > size of an old 3.5 digit DVM module with 4 MAN71 7-segment displays... My mistake... 4 x MAN72A seven-segment plus 1 MAN73A "+1" display... so 0000 to 10000... > I have figured out that the main chip is a Mostek MK5002 > counter/display driver, but I can't find any data sheets on Google... Finally found it... http://www.datasheetarchive.com/datasheet.php?article=3789216 > I'm guessing that it might have been used in some sort of > pinball or arcade machine because of some of the hits I've > gotten, but I'd just like to be able to reverse-engineer the > pinout of the edge connector on this module. For the record, the module is an NLS 39-324 - it has the 4.5 digits on the front, the MK5002N, three 4049 hex inverters, and a fist-full of discretes. I'm thinking it's either a DVM module or a counter module. -ethan From rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Sep 4 17:09:20 2006 From: rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:09:20 +0100 Subject: commodore 64/128 question In-Reply-To: <44FC8EE4.8010605@jbrain.com> References: <200609020323.k823LHBK030646@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200609021300.44988.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FA5269.1050709@jbrain.com> <200609031309.03237.rtellason@verizon.net> <44FC8EE4.8010605@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <66fa9abcc996f1edf4c152c8217c5d42@blueyonder.co.uk> >> I read somewhere that the CP/M cartridge never actually worked all >> that well. If it worked at all. >> > Correct. Bil Herd notes that the design didn;t fully tristate the > busses, which it needs to do for the VIC to work. > >> I have the 64's service manual around here someplace, and maybe I >> should look at the differences between the various boards, I don't >> remember anything in particular there that would account for this. I >> do remember a couple of lines of that port being labeled "Z80" and >> "DMA", which I never saw anything use. >> I have a C64 cpm cartridge, Its mostly a curio, but it does work well on my old C64 and also on my sx-64 portable. i havn't tried it on a later C64 version though. roger From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 4 18:06:29 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 00:06:29 +0100 Subject: Data General AV/10000 worth saving ? Message-ID: <00c201c6d076$c28bfbb0$3201a8c0@hal> I've heard from an NHS (UK public health) source that a Data General AV/10000 is to be scrapped sometime in the next six months. The guy laughed and choked at the list price, ?795,000 ... As far as I can ascertain, it has 32 x Motorola 88000 processors, a huge SCSI disc array and a lot of RAM (could mean anything) and runs a flavour of UNIX. But the whole thing has gone cranky (a technical term ?) and with NPFIT (National Programme For Information Technology) (a ?37 billion government IT project looked set to replace all IT in the NHS) the DG box will become redundant next year anyway. Is it worth rescuing ? Bear in mind I would probably have to pay the equivalent scrap value. It also sounds quite big too, I can't find any idea of the size on Google... There is also a AV/25000 going end of next year, I think that is too new for this list though (PIII Xeon), plus it's probably outside of my price range... Dave ;) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 4 20:26:08 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 21:26:08 -0400 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) Message-ID: <0J53008POIM4J1D1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Transformer question (only slightly OT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 00:07:10 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >As a result, I feel wall-warts are dangerous in the UK. They do not >contain na internal fuse, so could in theory draw nearly 30A from the >mains before the circuit fuse failed. The mains transformer primaty of >the wall-wart is supposed to burn out in a safe way, my experience >suggests this is not always the case. Wall warts, least here in USA must be fused internally or have a thermal interupter (usually the blow open). I've forcably opened a number of warts to replace protective devices. For many projects I use a standard 12V regulated DC wart and if higher voltages are required a simple multivibrator or switching regulator driving a suitable hunk of ferrite does nicely. It allows me to work inside without scary high potentials floating around and also solves the problem of "the right transformer". If warrented I bury the HV system in a seperate enclosure on the chassis and bypass the leads so the switching noise is hidden and in the case of tube (valve) designs keeps it looking "correct" while saving the annoying and sometimes messy job of winding a custom mains transformer. >I _never_ use wall-wards plugged straiht into the wall. Putting them on a >fuesed extension lead is somwhat safer. Altough personally I prefer a >decent transformer with fuses in both priamry and secondary circuits. Not a bad thing to do even here. Though I do it to assure all the warts are powered OFF when not in use not so much for safety but wasted power (electric bill). >> Another thing to have on your shop outlets is GFI protection. It could >> save your life. > >It can also be a right royal pain when a main filter has enough >unbalanced current to trip it. Ad it won't protect you if you're >relatively well insulated from ground but manage to connect yourself >between live and neutral or equivalent. Still it's some assistance for some cases. Perfection is a goal. >I use a GFI (RCCD, whatever it's called this week) in placees where there >could be dangerous leakage (sockets for outdoor appliances, in the >darkroom (a mixture of electrics and water, after all :-)), and so on. >But I don't have one on my workbence, nor do I want one. I have a mix of outlets on the bench some GFI protected some not. When I'm testing and working on line powered gear I used the GFI protected. Items that are known and in use I use the direct. Never hurts to have a good isolation transformer too. A recent addition to the bench power is a BIG RED BUTTON for those times when an unambigious off NOW is desired. Power safety is a good thing. Allison From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Sep 5 01:11:01 2006 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:11:01 -0700 Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090609042311x10513f1dg5bc689625e2ab36e@mail.gmail.com> here are some pictures hopfully the link works http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v639/jumas/hp9830/?start=all On 9/4/06, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > Hello > I have for sale a hp9830 calculator/computer system wich includes the > hp9830A with some extras from infotek(not sure what), a infotek fd-30 mass > memory unit, a hp9862A calc plotter, a hp9866A thermal printer, a hp9869A > card reader, all the cables, extra paper for the printer box of extra cards > for the reader some cassette tapes for the 9830 hp sys test cassette a hp > math pac vol 1 cassette ) all the io hookups 4 the printer plotter card > reader and the infotek mass memory unit. plus the following manuals sys > test instruction manual dated may 8th 1975, quick ref tp 9830Abasic july 1 > 1975, plotter control rom manual, printer manual, hp9830A 11272Bextended > i/o rom manual, plotter pac, 11274B string variables Rom manual, > 11270B matrix operations rom manual, 11278Bbatch basic rom manual, math pac > manual, 11279B Advanced programming I rom manual, 11289B Advanced > programming II rom manual, 11202A I/O interface Instalationb and service > manual. If anybody wants any of this let me know if not clamed in a couple > weeks its going to E-bay pictures will be up soon > Chris Halarewich > From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Sep 5 01:31:42 2006 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:31:42 -0700 Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <6d6501090609042311x10513f1dg5bc689625e2ab36e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090609042311x10513f1dg5bc689625e2ab36e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090609042331p190bc60fl3e63e5c819ea5895@mail.gmail.com> I forgot to mention I live in Castlegar British Columbia Canada Chris On 9/4/06, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > here are some pictures hopfully the link works > > http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v639/jumas/hp9830/?start=all > > > On 9/4/06, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > Hello > > I have for sale a hp9830 calculator/computer system wich includes > > the hp9830A with some extras from infotek(not sure what), a infotek fd-30 > > mass memory unit, a hp9862A calc plotter, a hp9866A thermal printer, a > > hp9869A card reader, all the cables, extra paper for the printer box of > > extra cards for the reader some cassette tapes for the 9830 hp sys test > > cassette a hp math pac vol 1 cassette ) all the io hookups 4 the printer > > plotter card reader and the infotek mass memory unit. plus the following > > manuals sys test instruction manual dated may 8th 1975, quick ref tp > > 9830Abasic july 1 1975, plotter control rom manual, printer manual, hp9830A > > 11272Bextended i/o rom manual, plotter pac, 11274B string variables Rom > > manual, 11270B matrix operations rom manual, 11278Bbatch basic rom manual, > > math pac manual, 11279B Advanced programming I rom manual, 11289B Advanced > > programming II rom manual, 11202A I/O interface Instalationb and service > > manual. If anybody wants any of this let me know if not clamed in a couple > > weeks its going to E-bay pictures will be up soon > > Chris Halarewich > > > > From alberto at a2sistemi.it Tue Sep 5 01:56:10 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:56:10 +0200 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf S400 diskpack, info request In-Reply-To: <6d6501090609042331p190bc60fl3e63e5c819ea5895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I need information about a disk unit Siemens-Nixdorf S400. It was mounted on a Siemens-Nixdorf 8870 M55 machine. I haven't found information in internet. Someone can help me ? Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 5 01:56:34 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 23:56:34 -0700 Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> References: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608281517380612.0FD9C53F@10.0.0.252> <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: I've got a big box (1571 drive box) full of floppies, some originals, some not. They've been stored for ~8 years in a storage unit that gets *hot* in the summer, and who knows where prior to that. How safe are these going to be to use? Still can't find a Joystick (found Joysticks for literally every other system today, and I know I have 4+ 2600 joysticks), however, I've found two more good serial cables, and have both 1541's connected (might also connect the 1571). Also found my Epyx Fastload cart (now to google up some doc's). Next step will probably be getting my 386sx working with Star Commander to make Lunix and Contiki floppies to play with. Zane PS I blame Jay for pushing me over the edge :^) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 5 02:04:20 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 00:04:20 -0700 Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608281517380612.0FD9C53F@10.0.0.252> <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: At 11:56 PM -0700 9/4/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Also found my Epyx Fastload cart (now to google up some doc's). Next step In case anyone else needs... http://members.aol.com/fyarra001/hardware/epyxflc.htm Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Tue Sep 5 02:37:46 2006 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (Greg Manuel (GMC)) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 03:37:46 -0400 Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For your joysticks you can use Atari Joysticks for it. They should work fine for you. Greg -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 2:57 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? I've got a big box (1571 drive box) full of floppies, some originals, some not. They've been stored for ~8 years in a storage unit that gets *hot* in the summer, and who knows where prior to that. How safe are these going to be to use? Still can't find a Joystick (found Joysticks for literally every other system today, and I know I have 4+ 2600 joysticks), however, I've found two more good serial cables, and have both 1541's connected (might also connect the 1571). Also found my Epyx Fastload cart (now to google up some doc's). Next step will probably be getting my 386sx working with Star Commander to make Lunix and Contiki floppies to play with. Zane PS I blame Jay for pushing me over the edge :^) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | ---------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 5051 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From cc at corti-net.de Tue Sep 5 04:54:54 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:54:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44FC5900.5040706@softjar.se> References: <200609041611.k84GAkVw075912@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44FC5900.5040706@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Sep 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > However, have you ever programmed on a PDP-8? Not much, but I'm a bit familiar with it. > If so, you would realize that it really requires you to do things a bit > different from what people nowadays do. > You have 4K word pages. One word is 12 bits. The addressing style of > instructions really limit most routines to what you can fit into 128 words. > No stack... What's a stack? ;-)) (Note: There's no stack on the PALM either, but other goodies instead, I admit). > Like I said, it wouldn't be difficult to write a Z-machine interpreter for > the PDP-8, but you'd better not base it on something written in C. > You might pick an idea or two from Frotz, for instance, but you'd have to > rewrite that as well to fit with the PDP-8. I think if you take an assembler program as a starting point you might oversee the essential point of the routine because you are too busy figuring out how to port that to another assembler language for a completely different architecture. A (simple!) C program shows you what you need to know and then you can think of doing the same in whatever language and for whatever architecture. That's the reason I chose the ITF interpreter (and not Frotz or any other one). > And you have almost no OS to support you either, so you'd have to implement > the I/O as well, and figure out which, if any, clock you have, if you want to > implement timed input. Well, there's no OS at all on the IBM 5110, only some monitor routines that assist you in accessing the floppy or the printer, but the I/O (and much else) has to be done from scratch (there are no library routines, nothing!). You have to write your own 16 bit math routines, multiplication and division and the like. Although the PALM is a 16 bit processor, the ALU only is 8 bits wide (with carry into the high order byte). There are neither screen output nor very handy keyboard input routines, so you need to get a bit creative. Ah, and not to forget the Z-Code <--> ASCII <--> EBCDIC conversions required, custom line wrapping (screen has only 64x16), custom "MORE"-like pager, etc. Christian From bqt at softjar.se Tue Sep 5 02:35:17 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:35:17 +0200 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <200609050015.k850Empq081976@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609050015.k850Empq081976@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44FD28B5.60306@softjar.se> woodelf wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> However, have you ever programmed on a PDP-8? >>> If so, you would realize that it really requires you to do things a bit >>> different from what people nowadays do. >>> You have 4K word pages. One word is 12 bits. The addressing style of >>> instructions really limit most routines to what you can fit into 128 >>> words. No stack... > > >Well 12 bits holds 2 6 bit chars nicely :) >I suspect the best way to do this is to convert Z-machine >data into something better suited for 12/24 bit processing. Hmm, I'm not sure how easy it would be to convert the game files in a way that would be good here... Text data would be nice to change, but other stuff you'd want to keep the way it is. But this would cause stuff to move around, so you'd really get into trouble. Nah, I suspect you'll want to leave the game files as they are... >>> Well, there are a lot of things to play around with. >>> Like I said, it wouldn't be difficult to write a Z-machine interpreter >>> for the PDP-8, but you'd better not base it on something written in C. >>> You might pick an idea or two from Frotz, for instance, but you'd have >>> to rewrite that as well to fit with the PDP-8. > > >Well the PDP-8 is easy to program in -- 8 instructions types. :) Depending on how you look at it, yes. You have six instructions that have an address argument, one I/O instruction, and one operator instruction. But the IOT leaves most of the bits free for interpretation by the device, and the OPR instruction is bit-coded, so it's really a lot of instructions. >>> And you have almost no OS to support you either, so you'd have to >>> implement the I/O as well, and figure out which, if any, clock you have, >>> if you want to implement timed input. > > >Oddly you have better OS support now with the emulators and >some new-ish hardware that uses ide drives. Huh? What are you talking about? You'll still have the emulator running OS/8, and nothing else. (Well, you could write it for RTS-8 for a different environment with support for more hardware, but I doubt anyone would to that.) OS/8 is a very limited OS. Whatever underlying hardware you use is irrelevant. It's all a question of what you're emulating, and I would recommend that your code works on atleast a few different combinations of hardware. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Tue Sep 5 02:43:03 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:43:03 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Re: 11/64 conversion] In-Reply-To: <200609050015.k850Empq081976@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609050015.k850Empq081976@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44FD2A87.5070802@softjar.se> joe heck wrote: > Folks, I asked similar questions directly and got the following answers. > So, don't know if it is RT, RSX, or RSTS, or even a flavor of Unix. > > Joe Heck Hmm. Noone seem to ask the most obvious questions... The original poster said it was a HP PDP 11/64. Now, HP never made any computers with a PDP moniker, Digital did. And Digital never made a PDP computer with the 11/64 designation. I would suggest that we start at that end. What machine is this *really*? As for questions about transferring the data... Is the machine still functional or not? If it is, then it would obviously be easiest to just type the file out (it's a text file after all). Size of disks (someone asked). If we're talking MSCP disks, the largest I know of is the RA73, which weights in at 2 GB. (Unless you want to count SCSI drives...) Copying to a Linux system? Sure you can do that, but I wouldn't. VMS would probably be way better if it's actually from some PDP system, since VMS can actually read some of the file systems it might be in then. But this might be something not at all related to DEC equipment after all... Johnny From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 5 06:04:11 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:04:11 -0400 Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? Message-ID: <0J5400LZL9DES8NF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? > From: "e.stiebler" > Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:38:17 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >David Griffith wrote: >> I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a >> "classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some examples: >> >> P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs >> ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. > >Were there any SBCs with the later z280 & z380 chips ? >A short google search didn't find anything. So, anybody here knows of >any SBC with the z280, z380 (or similar ?) chips ? Never saw a real Z380. However I have several Jrev Z280s in CP/M based projects. The Z280 was used on the YASBEC (Yet Another Single Board Computer) and a few others that slip my mind. Allison From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Sep 5 06:30:37 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:30:37 -0400 Subject: sunos install docs? Message-ID: <200609051130.k85BUbpP015596@mwave.heeltoe.com> Does anyone have sunos install docs for 2.0, 3.5 or 4.0 on a sun2? for grins I tried the sun2 emulator with the sun2 tape images I found. I made some guesses about copying the miniroot to the swap parition but could find no joy. (that's a joke, heh, with appologies to bill) I could get the 2.0 tape diags to run and put a label on the disk but running the standalone copy to copy the miniroot to the swap (which I assume is sd(0,0,1)) did not allow to boot - it just took an exception. none of the other tape images (3.5, 4.0) seemed to work. the boot would run but the standalone copy an diags would crash. -brad From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 5 06:47:53 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:47:53 -0400 Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? Message-ID: <0J54008MNBE7J3R2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? > From: David Griffith > Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:03:50 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 4 Sep 2006, e.stiebler wrote: > >> David Griffith wrote: >> > I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a >> > "classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some examples: >> > >> > P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs >> > ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. >> >> Were there any SBCs with the later z280 & z380 chips ? >> A short google search didn't find anything. So, anybody here knows of >> any SBC with the z280, z380 (or similar ?) chips ? > >I've been pondering a redesign of the P112 for a while. I'll probably >investigate using a z280 or z380 for a brand-new design. The biggest problem doing a Z280 design is finding enough late rev Z280s. The z280 in it's early revs had a number of bugs that impacted the MMU and cache. However, if you find enough parts it's a interesting varient of the z80 line with a 16bit wide data bus, 24bit addressing, MMU and I&D space. It's instruction set is enhanced as well. Despite all that it's fully Z80 upward compatable and will run most z80 binaries found in the Z80 CP/M world. FYI: fast parts are in the 12.5 to 16mhz range. Allison From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 5 08:50:49 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:50:49 -0500 Subject: Paper tape Utilities/Images Message-ID: <200609051254.k85CsSGO020122@hosting.monisys.ca> In case anyone is interested: I have posted the utilities I created to read paper tapes to my site in the Software/Images section (near the bottom of the main page): Paper Tape Reader (PTR) reads data from a reader connected to a PC parallel port. It was tested with an OAE OP-80A, however it should work with any reader which provides parallel data, a "data ready" strobe, and accepts an ACK pulse to reset for the next byte. Paper Tape Compare (PTC) is a utility to identify differences between paper tape image files. It a little brighter than "comp" for examining paper tape streams - useful to confirm multiple reads. Source code is included so you can modify to suit your own setup as required. I have also started a section of Paper Tape Images - currently only the processor technology VDM drivers are there, however I anticipate obtaining and reading addional tapes later this fall - as always, submissions to the archive from other sources would be very welcome. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 5 08:13:31 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:13:31 -0600 Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? In-Reply-To: <44FCCBE9.3010105@dakotacom.net> References: <44FCB8E9.3020602@e-bbes.com> <44FCCBE9.3010105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44FD77FB.1040702@e-bbes.com> Don wrote: > [N.B. I assume the "2780" in the subject line is intended to > refer to 280's -- though there was also a *7180*] Sorry, just a typo. Was meant to be the z280 :( From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 5 08:13:48 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:13:48 -0600 Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? In-Reply-To: <0J5400LZL9DES8NF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5400LZL9DES8NF@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44FD780C.2080409@e-bbes.com> Allison wrote: > The Z280 was used on the YASBEC (Yet Another Single Board Computer) and a few > others that slip my mind. Pictures I found, show an z180 on the YASBEC :( The comp.os.cpm FAQ says it is a hd64180 ... (which we used here to drive a 82768 intel graphics processor) Was there a z280 version too ? From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 5 08:13:35 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:13:35 -0600 Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? In-Reply-To: References: <44FCB8E9.3020602@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44FD77FF.7010906@e-bbes.com> David Griffith wrote: > I've been pondering a redesign of the P112 for a while. I'll probably > investigate using a z280 or z380 for a brand-new design. Did you have a look at the CPU280 ? From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Sep 5 08:47:58 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:47:58 -0400 Subject: Minimal KDJ11 system Message-ID: <22FBF83E-6985-45AB-95F0-BF204AA239C1@xlisper.com> I am about to drastically cut back on my collection of PDP-11 hardware. After giving away everything on the list posted in another message, I will have the following QBus boards left: M8192 (KDJ11-A) M8059KF (128KW RAM, two) M8047CA (boot, serial, RAM) What I'd like to do is find a small QBus backplane and power supply that will accept these four cards and then use the TU58 emulation software to boot RT-11 over a serial link to a PC. I understand that this will be slow but most of my work with PDP-11s so far has been with the PDT-11/150 and its floppy drives are very slow. Maybe I'll feel right at home! In any case, does anyone have a small QBus backplane and power supply that they are willing to sell or trade? From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Sep 5 08:48:37 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:48:37 -0400 Subject: Stuff available in NH Message-ID: <8B4D8AB1-5126-4A61-A556-54D8C8E332A4@xlisper.com> I'm cleaning out my basement and am finally admitting to myself that I'm not going to have enough spare time to make use of all of the equipment I've accumulated over the years. I would like to offer the following list of equipment to the list. Some of the items are too large to pack and ship. I would like them picked up in Bedford, NH 03110. This includes all of the PDP-11 equipment and the Sun 386i workstation. Some of the other stuff could be packed shipped at the new owner's expense. I'm basically offering this stuff for free to anyone who wants it. The only thing I would be interested in acquiring in trade is an LK201 keyboard and a VR201 monitor to use with my DECmate III+. Even that might be available after I've had a change to play with it a little. Anyway, here is the list. Please contact me at dbetz at xlisper.com if you are interested in any of this equipment. Thanks, David Betz -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: stuff.txt URL: From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 5 09:20:00 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:20:00 -0700 Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <6d6501090609042331p190bc60fl3e63e5c819ea5895@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090609042311x10513f1dg5bc689625e2ab36e@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090609042331p190bc60fl3e63e5c819ea5895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44FD8790.7060101@sbcglobal.net> The link works and the photos show a very nice calculator system! The 9830 was the first computer I really had access to back in 1972. We also had the Infotek disk system (actually, I still have that box but no interface or docs) and the plotter but not the card reader, and our printer never worked. Now we just have to find out the best way to ship it all from Canada. Thanks! Bob Chris Halarewich wrote: > I forgot to mention I live in Castlegar British Columbia Canada > Chris > > > On 9/4/06, Chris Halarewich wrote: > >> >> here are some pictures hopfully the link works >> >> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v639/jumas/hp9830/?start=all >> >> >> On 9/4/06, Chris Halarewich wrote: >> > >> > Hello >> > I have for sale a hp9830 calculator/computer system wich includes >> > the hp9830A with some extras from infotek(not sure what), a infotek >> fd-30 >> > mass memory unit, a hp9862A calc plotter, a hp9866A thermal printer, a >> > hp9869A card reader, all the cables, extra paper for the printer >> box of >> > extra cards for the reader some cassette tapes for the 9830 hp sys >> test >> > cassette a hp math pac vol 1 cassette ) all the io hookups 4 the >> printer >> > plotter card reader and the infotek mass memory unit. plus the >> following >> > manuals sys test instruction manual dated may 8th 1975, quick ref tp >> > 9830Abasic july 1 1975, plotter control rom manual, printer >> manual, hp9830A >> > 11272Bextended i/o rom manual, plotter pac, 11274B string variables >> Rom >> > manual, 11270B matrix operations rom manual, 11278Bbatch basic rom >> manual, >> > math pac manual, 11279B Advanced programming I rom manual, 11289B >> Advanced >> > programming II rom manual, 11202A I/O interface Instalationb and >> service >> > manual. If anybody wants any of this let me know if not clamed in >> a couple >> > weeks its going to E-bay pictures will be up soon >> > Chris Halarewich >> > >> >> > From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Sep 5 10:20:02 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 11:20:02 -0400 Subject: HP 2934A Printer Manual Needed In-Reply-To: References: <200609032357.k83NvY3H065979@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200609051520.k85FK3ur000343@mail.bcpl.net> On 3 Sep 2006 at 17:25, CRC wrote: > ...I really need the owners/ programming manual to make use of it. I have a 2934A too, along with the following manuals: 02932-90001 May 1985 HP 2930 Series Owner's Manual 02932-90006 Oct 1984 HP 2930 Series Operator's Guide The former is about 160 pages and contains configuration and programming information. The latter is about 30 pages and describes how plug the line cord in, how to turn the printer on, how to load the paper, etc. While both are on my to-do list for scanning and PDFing for Al, neither have been done yet. Would you prefer to wait (~ weeks) for the full manuals, or would a subset (~ days) be useful? For example, I could probably get the 30-page programming section scanned this week. Or is there some specific question about the printer that I could answer? -- Dave From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Sep 5 10:08:19 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:08:19 -0500 Subject: SunOS Install docs Message-ID: <8d7f8f7aeeb54c06b83ae4010f9e6a13@valleyimplants.com> Brad asked about SunOS2. I have no documents for that release, but SunOS 4s recommended install proceedure bypasses standalone copy in favor of MUNIX and dd. To load MUNIX you run >bst() Boot: st(,,4) which loads MUNIX into ram. From there, you make devices, if necessary, run format to label your disks, and then dd the miniroot off with mt -f /dev/nrst0 fsf3 dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=/dev/rsd0b bs=48k you boot the miniroot with b sd(,,1) -sw Standalone copy syntax is >b st() Boot: st(,,2) Copy from: st(,,3) Copy to: st(,,1) then reset and boot miniroot. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 5 10:52:48 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:52:48 -0700 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf S400 diskpack, info request Message-ID: > I need information about a disk unit Siemens-Nixdorf S400. To what level of detail do you need? The early S400 series were rebadged RCA Spectra 70's It is probably similar to either IBM 2311 or 2314. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Sep 5 10:54:03 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 11:54:03 -0400 Subject: SunOS Install docs In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:08:19 CDT." <8d7f8f7aeeb54c06b83ae4010f9e6a13@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200609051554.k85Fs33u001979@mwave.heeltoe.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > > > Brad asked about SunOS2. I have no documents for that release, but >SunOS 4s recommended install proceedure bypasses standalone copy in favor >of MUNIX and dd. yes. I tried munix and it didn't work. For sunos 2.0 the munix image seems to include a disk label also (I could probably trim it with dd). "boot" complains with "bad format". I think it's intended to be copied wholesale to a disk. But the emulator doesn't support the smd disk which the label describes. For sunos 3.2+ the munix dies with a bus timeout; it looks like it's probing for non-existant hardware. I tried fooling with the config but was unable to keep it from happening. I think the emulator needs work to run sunos - I'll try the author. I've never seens sun2 emulator before. Are there any others? (this one is pretty nice, mind you) -brad From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 5 11:41:57 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:41:57 -0400 Subject: Resistors Message-ID: I have a vaguely sorted pile of 1/4 and 1/8 watt carbon comp and metal film resistors available for postage plus a token amount for my time. The pile is about two pounds. Any interest? Replies off list, please... -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 5 11:58:44 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:58:44 -0600 Subject: PDP8 and Z-machine engine In-Reply-To: <44FD28B5.60306@softjar.se> References: <200609050015.k850Empq081976@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44FD28B5.60306@softjar.se> Message-ID: <44FDACC4.8090802@jetnet.ab.ca> Johnny Billquist wrote: > woodelf wrote: > OS/8 is a very limited OS. Whatever underlying hardware you use is > irrelevant. It's all a question of what you're emulating, and I would > recommend that your code works on atleast a few different combinations > of hardware. I leave that comment for DOS. With the PDP-8 you got a lot for your memory and at least standard TTY I/O. I still grumble of how badly serial I/O was for the Pee-Cee was and still is ... see usb drivers. > Johnny From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 5 12:02:43 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 11:02:43 -0600 Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <44FD8790.7060101@sbcglobal.net> References: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090609042311x10513f1dg5bc689625e2ab36e@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090609042331p190bc60fl3e63e5c819ea5895@mail.gmail.com> <44FD8790.7060101@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <44FDADB3.30304@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > The link works and the photos show a very nice calculator system! The > 9830 was the first computer I really had access to back in 1972. > We also had the Infotek disk system (actually, I still have that box but > no interface or docs) and the plotter but not the card reader, and our > printer > never worked. > > Now we just have to find out the best way to ship it all from Canada. > Well I just want the next size smaller HP. Where are all the *Computer* systems in Canada? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 5 12:04:29 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:04:29 -0400 Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <44FDADB3.30304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090609042311x10513f1dg5bc689625e2ab36e@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090609042331p190bc60fl3e63e5c819ea5895@mail.gmail.com> <44FD8790.7060101@sbcglobal.net> <44FDADB3.30304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7442b4708fe02d1f6a6c552a4bda5360@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2006, at 1:02 PM, woodelf wrote: >> The link works and the photos show a very nice calculator system! The >> 9830 was the first computer I really had access to back in 1972. >> We also had the Infotek disk system (actually, I still have that box >> but no interface or docs) and the plotter but not the card reader, >> and our printer >> never worked. >> Now we just have to find out the best way to ship it all from Canada. >> > Well I just want the next size smaller HP. > Where are all the *Computer* systems in Canada? They all belong to a guy named Shawn Wallbridge in Manitoba. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Sep 5 12:13:13 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:13:13 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: 11/64 conversion] In-Reply-To: <44FD2A87.5070802@softjar.se> Message-ID: <004e01c6d10e$92359410$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> This is probably a PDP11/84 with the 8 misread as a 6. Probably RA81s or newer drives on it. May also be in an HP rack or something, who knows. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 2:43 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: 11/64 conversion] > > joe heck wrote: > > > Folks, I asked similar questions directly and got the > following answers. > > So, don't know if it is RT, RSX, or RSTS, or even a > flavor of Unix. > > > > Joe Heck > > Hmm. Noone seem to ask the most obvious questions... > > The original poster said it was a HP PDP 11/64. > Now, HP never made any computers with a PDP moniker, Digital did. > And Digital never made a PDP computer with the 11/64 designation. > I would suggest that we start at that end. What machine is > this *really*? > > As for questions about transferring the data... Is the > machine still functional or not? If it is, then it would > obviously be easiest to just type the file out (it's a text > file after all). > Size of disks (someone asked). If we're talking MSCP disks, > the largest I know of is the RA73, which weights in at 2 GB. > (Unless you want to count SCSI drives...) > > Copying to a Linux system? Sure you can do that, but I > wouldn't. VMS would probably be way better if it's actually > from some PDP system, since VMS can actually read some of the > file systems it might be in then. > But this might be something not at all related to DEC > equipment after all... > > Johnny > From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 5 12:35:23 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 11:35:23 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: Re: 11/64 conversion] In-Reply-To: <004e01c6d10e$92359410$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <004e01c6d10e$92359410$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <44FDB55B.7060304@e-bbes.com> Julian Wolfe wrote: > This is probably a PDP11/84 with the 8 misread as a 6. Or a pdp11/24, or a 11/34, or 11/44, or 11/74 or a plain 11/60 (was just changing one number) ;-) > Probably RA81s or > newer drives on it. May also be in an HP rack or something, who knows. As long as this guy doesn't get up from his chair and reads whats on the machine, we only can guess ;-) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 5 12:40:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:40:33 -0700 Subject: Data General AV/10000 worth saving ? In-Reply-To: <00c201c6d076$c28bfbb0$3201a8c0@hal> References: <00c201c6d076$c28bfbb0$3201a8c0@hal> Message-ID: <200609051040330739.18EB62A4@10.0.0.252> On 9/5/2006 at 12:06 AM David Hunt wrote: >I've heard from an NHS (UK public health) source that a Data General >AV/10000 is to be scrapped sometime in the next six months. The guy laughed >and choked at the list price, ?795,000 ... I think the AViiON stuff just barely squeaks in under the "10 year rule" (dodging brickbats). :) Wow, getting your hands on a not-that-old system that retailed for about million dollars new is quite a find. From the web photos, it's hard to get an idea of what the packaging is, but I suspect that it's rack-mount because of the age and number of processors. Congratulations! Cheers, Chuck From ben_r4 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 5 12:49:13 2006 From: ben_r4 at yahoo.com (Ben R.) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General AV/10000 worth saving ? In-Reply-To: <200609051040330739.18EB62A4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060905174913.14960.qmail@web50904.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, My name is Benjamin. You seem to have a pretty good knowledge of quality data general machines. Do you have any idea what a mint condition 1970 DG CS-30 with all boot disks included would be worth? i have people interested, but i am not as familiar with the Data General series as i would like to be before i sell mine. Thanks, Ben Chuck Guzis wrote: On 9/5/2006 at 12:06 AM David Hunt wrote: >I've heard from an NHS (UK public health) source that a Data General >AV/10000 is to be scrapped sometime in the next six months. The guy laughed >and choked at the list price, ?795,000 ... I think the AViiON stuff just barely squeaks in under the "10 year rule" (dodging brickbats). :) Wow, getting your hands on a not-that-old system that retailed for about million dollars new is quite a find. From the web photos, it's hard to get an idea of what the packaging is, but I suspect that it's rack-mount because of the age and number of processors. Congratulations! Cheers, Chuck --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 5 13:28:20 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cops need C64 help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609051830.OAA17460@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Friend of mine tossed this URL my way. > http://www.guardian.co.uk/austria/article/0,,1865500,00.html Any C64 people in Austria who may be able to help? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jim.isbell at gmail.com Tue Sep 5 13:54:55 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:54:55 -0500 Subject: OT/OT Software?? Message-ID: I am cleaning up and found some old software on 5 1/4" floppies. I was going to put it on Ebay but occured to me maybe someone on this list would be interested in it. But I am almost afraid to speak since it may be Off Topic? Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 5 14:10:40 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT/OT Software?? In-Reply-To: from "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" at Sep 05, 2006 01:54:55 PM Message-ID: <200609051910.k85JAfPW014822@onyx.spiritone.com> > I am cleaning up and found some old software on 5 1/4" floppies. I > was going to put it on Ebay but occured to me maybe someone on this > list would be interested in it. But I am almost afraid to speak since > it may be Off Topic? > > Jim Isbell I'm quite confident that it isn't off-topic. What is the software? What platform? Zane From jim.isbell at gmail.com Tue Sep 5 14:26:25 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:26:25 -0500 Subject: OT/OT Software?? In-Reply-To: <200609051910.k85JAfPW014822@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609051910.k85JAfPW014822@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: One is a program to translate BASIC programs to "C" called BAS_C and it runs under MSDOS the other is a Floppy Drive adjustment progran called "Recording Interchange Diagnostic" that checks the 5.25" drives parameters and reports them it runs on "IBM PC and XT". I will never use them again so would be interested in finding them a new home. On 9/5/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I am cleaning up and found some old software on 5 1/4" floppies. I > > was going to put it on Ebay but occured to me maybe someone on this > > list would be interested in it. But I am almost afraid to speak since > > it may be Off Topic? > > > > Jim Isbell > > I'm quite confident that it isn't off-topic. What is the software? What > platform? > > Zane > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 5 14:38:55 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:38:55 -0500 Subject: Minimal KDJ11 system In-Reply-To: <22FBF83E-6985-45AB-95F0-BF204AA239C1@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <000601c6d122$ed2c6240$4200a8c0@main> Hi David, Can I give you a call to discuss this? Thanks, Paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Betz Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 8:48 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Minimal KDJ11 system I am about to drastically cut back on my collection of PDP-11 hardware. After giving away everything on the list posted in another message, I will have the following QBus boards left: M8192 (KDJ11-A) M8059KF (128KW RAM, two) M8047CA (boot, serial, RAM) What I'd like to do is find a small QBus backplane and power supply that will accept these four cards and then use the TU58 emulation software to boot RT-11 over a serial link to a PC. I understand that this will be slow but most of my work with PDP-11s so far has been with the PDT-11/150 and its floppy drives are very slow. Maybe I'll feel right at home! In any case, does anyone have a small QBus backplane and power supply that they are willing to sell or trade? From alberto at a2sistemi.it Tue Sep 5 14:53:36 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 21:53:36 +0200 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf S400 diskpack, info request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I need information about a disk unit Siemens-Nixdorf S400. > > To what level of detail do you need? Specifications : a museum has this unit and ask me information to fill in the documentation sheet, but I have no files in my archive. > The early S400 series were rebadged RCA Spectra 70's > > It is probably similar to either IBM 2311 or 2314. Ok, these are GOOD directives :) Thanks ! Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 5 16:12:50 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: portable printing terminals Message-ID: I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone here aware of one that does do lowercase? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From psand at mac.com Tue Sep 5 16:20:24 2006 From: psand at mac.com (Per Sandstrom) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 23:20:24 +0200 Subject: sunos install docs? In-Reply-To: <200609051130.k85BUbpP015596@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200609051130.k85BUbpP015596@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <44FDEA18.8090401@mac.com> I waited for someone to ask exactly this question... :-) Brad Parker wrote: > Does anyone have sunos install docs for 2.0, 3.5 or 4.0 on a sun2? As a matter of fact, yes, I have. Almost. It's for SunOS 3.5 on a 3/60. The procedure on a Sun-2/120 should be pretty similar, but the mainbus address for the Emulex MD21 (SCSI/ESDI) controller is 0x80000 instead of 0x140000. For a Xylogics (SMD) controller, it's 0xee40. I haven't done this myself. Found the notes somewhere on the Net. --- 1. Load Tape 1 into the tape drive. 2. At the > prompt, enter: b st(0,0,0) The system will blink off and on once, and then print: Boot: st(0,0,0) Wait for th Boot: prompt. 3. At the "Boot:" prompt, enter: st(0,0,3) This loads and starts the diag program. 4. When you see the menu of disk controller, for a Sun 3/60, enter: 4 This choice specifies the Emulex MD21 - SCSI/ESDI disk controller. You may need to choose a different controller for your configuration. 5. At the prompt for mainbus address, enter: 140000 Again, this is for the Sun 3/60 with Emulex MD21. 6. At the "which target?" prompt, enter: 0 7. At the "which unit?" prompt, enter: 0 8. When you see the menu of disk drives, choose the correct disk. 9. Format the disk. a. At the diag> prompt, enter: format The program will then respond with SCSI format and the format> prompt. b. At the format> prompt, enter: f The program warns that this process destroys all disk data, and then asks "are you sure?" c. Enter: y Messages indicating correction of bad disk blocks may appear. These are normal and can be safely ignored. When formatting is complete, the system message "Done" and the format> prompt are displayed. d. Exit the format program by entering: quit 10. To partition the disk, enter the following at the diag> prompt. partition 11. Select a partition table. You may also choose to modify it. 12. At the "OK to use this partition table?" prompt, enter: yes 13. When the system is ready, the diag> prompt will appear. Enter: label The system asks: OK to use logical partition map? Are you sure you want to write? Enter "yes" to each question. 14. When you are finished labelling the disk, exit the diag program by entering: quit The system returns a Boot: prompt. 15. Copy the mini-UNIX operating system from tape to disk. At each of the prompts listed below on the left, enter the associated response on the right: Boot: st(0,0,4) Size: 25220+4900+113452 Standalone Copy From: st(0,0,5) To: sd(0,0,1) This process takes approximately 10 minutes to copy the mini-UNIX to the swap partition of the disk drive. When the copy operation is finished, you will see the message "Copy completed", the number of bytes involved, and the Boot: prompt. 16. Boot mini-UNIX by entering: sd(0,0,1)vmunix -as 17. After a few lines of boot information, the booting program will stop and prompt for the root device. Enter: sd0* When booting is completed, you will see the # prompt. 18. Check the date by entering: date If it is incorrect, set the correct date by entering: date yymmddhhmm.ss where: yy - year digits (note not Y2K compliant) mm - month digits dd - day digits hh - hour digits (24-hour clock) mm - minutes digits ss - seconds digits (optional) 19. Call the Setup program to load the UNIX operating system. At the # prompt, enter: setup The setup program contains five forms in which you enter information and select options. I will not go into the details of the setup program since it is fairly straight forward. 20. After setup is completed, you should have SunOS 3.5 installed and running on your Sun3 system. --- Hope this helps. Per From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 5 16:27:21 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:27:21 -0400 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609051727.21307.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 04 September 2006 07:12 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I would seriously recomend against rectifying the mains for something > > > like this. Non-isolated PSUs have the nasty habit of making things live > > > that you least expect, and may kill you (or worse, damage a classic > > > computer). > > > > Oh, I wasn't suggesting that, simply pointing out that once you got > > your isolation a simple rectifier would do the trick just fine... > > Depends on the turns ratio of the transformers... > > > I've had my experiences with non-isolated equipment, more than I ever > > wanted, and don't plan to build any to add to that. :-) > > Me too. I grew up fixing series-string radios and TVs (until the coming > of 'baseband' audio and video sockets, such as the SCART connector, most > TVs sold in the UK, even semiconductor-based ones, had a live chassis). I > don't much care for working on such units. I've worked on my share of that stuff as well, and I don't care for it either. > What amazes me is that in the 1950s and 1960s, UK magazines published > several educational courses. Typically you'd start by building a crystal > set, then turn it into a 1-valver (leaky grid detector), then add audio > stages, RF stages, and maybe end up with a superhet. > > Thing is, you got the HT (B+) by half-wave rectifying the mains. The > exposed metal chasis was connected to mains neutral. And you had > headphones. You know, that could easily turn into an electric chair... I'm not familiar with mains wiring there, is the connection in any way polarized? Lately I've been running into those stupid polarized plugs here, but there are still numerous extension cords and outlets that don't have the wider slot and there's no guarantee of them being wired properly anyway, so I usually end up having to fix those with a nibbling tool for them to be usable at all. I don't understand why they didn't start out with a polarized setup in the first place, if one wire was supposed to be grounded. > > > If you use back-to-back transformers as I've suggsted, the actual > > > voltage got get out depends on the turns rations, of course. Maybe a > > > simple rectifier will be enough, maybe you need a doubler. > > > > Many suggestions that I've seen illustrated like that suggest using two > > identical transformers, which should get you the same thing out as you > > put in. > > YEs, but there's no _requirement_ to do that. True. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 5 16:35:23 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060905143428.N27243@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, David Griffith wrote: > I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable > printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone > here aware of one that does do lowercase? There was an accessory ROM for the Silent 700 series for lower case. It was not a very nice font. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Sep 5 16:42:39 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:42:39 -0400 Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Griffith wrote: > I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable > printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone > here aware of one that does do lowercase? > Depending on your definition of "portable"... an HP-150 with the built in printer could do lower case (I'm pretty sure). -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/437 - Release Date: 9/4/2006 From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 5 17:02:52 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 18:02:52 -0400 Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609051802.52433.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 05 September 2006 02:56 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Still can't find a Joystick (found Joysticks for literally every > other system today, and I know I have 4+ 2600 joysticks), They're the same... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 5 17:07:39 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: <200609051802.52433.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> <200609051802.52433.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 05 September 2006 02:56 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Still can't find a Joystick (found Joysticks for literally every > > other system today, and I know I have 4+ 2600 joysticks), > > They're the same... I know that Commodore made their own joysticks, but everyone I knew during the C64's heyday simply used Atari 2600 sticks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 5 17:27:32 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: <200609051802.52433.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 05, 2006 06:02:52 PM Message-ID: <200609052227.k85MRWja019786@onyx.spiritone.com> > > On Tuesday 05 September 2006 02:56 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Still can't find a Joystick (found Joysticks for literally every > > other system today, and I know I have 4+ 2600 joysticks), > > They're the same... I realize they're the same, that's why I'm so frustrated that I can't find the 4+ 2600 Joysticks that I have! An interesting note, almost all the nice 3rd party ones on eBay look like they're in the UK. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 5 17:31:53 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Sep 05, 2006 03:07:39 PM Message-ID: <200609052231.k85MVr8P019901@onyx.spiritone.com> > I know that Commodore made their own joysticks, but everyone I knew during > the C64's heyday simply used Atari 2600 sticks. > > -- > David Griffith There is probably a good reason for that. I had one of the Commodore Joysticks for my VIC-20, and while it was basically an identical "clone" of the Atari 2600 sticks, the Atari sticks used a much softer plastic for the part over the stick, so the "ribed" part moved easier on the Atari Stick. I wish I still has my 3rd party stick and "Auto-Fire" adapter. I have two of the nice red Wico sticks, but can only find thier boxes :^( Zane From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 5 17:50:03 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:50:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Joysticks (was Re: Advice on old C64 floppies? ) Message-ID: <200609052250.k85Mo3GA099607@keith.ezwind.net> --- David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > On Tuesday 05 September 2006 02:56 am, Zane H. > Healy wrote: > > > Still can't find a Joystick (found Joysticks f or > literally every > > > other system today, and I know I have 4+ 2600 > joysticks), > > > > They're the same... > > I know that Commodore made their own joysticks, bu t > everyone I knew during > the C64's heyday simply used Atari 2600 sticks. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > Can't you use Spectrum joysticks too?? Or how about Sega Megadrive or Amiga CD32 pads?? I know it would depend on which pins were used for button and direction detection but they might work... I hate using joysticks these days. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 5 18:18:10 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060905161250.T31608@shell.lmi.net> > David Griffith wrote: > > I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable > > printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone > > here aware of one that does do lowercase? On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Depending on your definition of "portable"... an important distinction; in those days, anything that wasn't bolted down was likely to be called "portable" A few typewriter sized ones had cases with handles. ... and, of course, machines like the DTC300 were on casters, ... From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Sep 5 18:32:38 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, David Griffith wrote: > I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable > printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone > here aware of one that does do lowercase? I suppose you could classify this as a portable, since it comes in its own Samsonite suitcase: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/index.html#teleterm It does pseudo-lowercase. It has a "lower shift" key next to the regular shift key. In "lower shift" mode, the characters are printed about 2/3 the size of the upper case characters, but they look like miniature versions of the upper case font. The "lower shift" key locks. When you press the regular shift key, it unlocks the "lower shift" key, and everything prints in upper case. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 5 18:23:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 00:23:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> from "Chris Halarewich" at Sep 4, 6 04:34:52 pm Message-ID: > > Hello > I have for sale a hp9830 calculator/computer system wich includes the > hp9830A with some extras from infotek(not sure what), a infotek fd-30 mass > memory unit, a hp9862A calc plotter, a hp9866A thermal printer, a hp9869A Normally on HP systems, 'Mass Memory' means either a disk drive or (file structured) tape drive. > card reader, all the cables, extra paper for the printer box of extra cards FWIW, thermal fax paper of the appropriate width (I think it's 216 mm) works fine in my 9866A > for the reader some cassette tapes for the 9830 hp sys test cassette a hp > math pac vol 1 cassette ) all the io hookups 4 the printer plotter card > reader and the infotek mass memory unit. plus the following manuals sys > test instruction manual dated may 8th 1975, quick ref tp 9830Abasic july 1 > 1975, plotter control rom manual, printer manual, hp9830A 11272Bextended > i/o rom manual, plotter pac, 11274B string variables Rom manual, > 11270B matrix operations rom manual, 11278Bbatch basic rom manual, math pac > manual, 11279B Advanced programming I rom manual, 11289B Advanced > programming II rom manual, 11202A I/O interface Instalationb and service > manual. If anybody wants any of this let me know if not clamed in a couple > weeks its going to E-bay pictures will be up soon Oh WOW!. That's one beuatiful machine. Why can't things like this ever turn up on my side of the Pond? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 5 18:57:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 00:57:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Sep 5, 6 02:12:50 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable > printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone > here aware of one that does do lowercase? I hae a portable themal prining terminal, I forget the _real_ brand but it's badged 'CAE' or something. It has a built-in accoustiv modem with the cups on the back panel. Anyway, it prints smallcaps for lower case. They're distiguishable from upper case characters, but they are not true lower case patterns. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 5 18:53:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 00:53:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <44FDADB3.30304@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 5, 6 11:02:43 am Message-ID: > > no interface or docs) and the plotter but not the card reader, and our > > printer > > never worked. Odd.. I've had very few problems with my 9866A. I just hope the printheads never fail -- the other components are standard parts, although some (the shift registers on the printhead driver PCB, and the dynamin MOS shift registers used as a line buffer) would be hard to find now. > > > > Now we just have to find out the best way to ship it all from Canada. > > > Well I just want the next size smaller HP. You mena a 9831? (that's the physically smaller replacement for the 9830 I believe). Good luck, I am told they're one of the rarer HP desktop machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 5 19:03:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 01:03:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: <200609051727.21307.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 5, 6 05:27:21 pm Message-ID: > > What amazes me is that in the 1950s and 1960s, UK magazines published > > several educational courses. Typically you'd start by building a crystal > > set, then turn it into a 1-valver (leaky grid detector), then add audio > > stages, RF stages, and maybe end up with a superhet. > > > > Thing is, you got the HT (B+) by half-wave rectifying the mains. The > > exposed metal chasis was connected to mains neutral. And you had > > headphones. You know, that could easily turn into an electric chair... > > I'm not familiar with mains wiring there, is the connection in any way > polarized? Lately I've been running into those stupid polarized plugs here, Most UK mains sockets (even at that time) would be the 3 pin 13A rectangular-pin ones. There is no 2-pin plug that fits these, they are polarised. But in the 1950s it would not be that uncommon to find 2 pin mains sockets. No earth, and not polariesed. These came in 2A, 5A, and 15A versions IIRC. There were also 3 pin versions [1] but in wonderful piece of design, the pin spacing was diferent -- 2 pin plugs do not properly fit the 3 pin sockets. [1] The spec mentions a 30A version. I have never seen one, I have never met anyone who's seen one. A friend who works in the electricity supply industry can make the same claim. However, it is a very Bad Thing to assume that neutral is close to ground voltage and safe to touch. It would break a few safety regulations for one thing -- mainly because a defective connection on that side of the cable would make the accessible metalwork live with only the effective resistance of the device to limit the current. That's unlikely to limit the current to a safe (for humans) level. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 5 18:33:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 00:33:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <200609041747130570.154BA694@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 4, 6 05:47:13 pm Message-ID: > > Is one side of your mains grounded? Here in the US, the most common Yes. The 'neutral' side of our mains is connected to ground at some point (normally at the secondary of the last distribution transformer -- note that over here a single transformer supplies many houses, we don't have the equivalent of your 'pole pigs'). But no device may assume that the neutral side of the mains is 'safe' to touch. It muse be inaccessible without the use of the tool. Single-pole switches and fuses must be in the live (hot) side of the mains. It is against the rules to put a protective device (fuse/breaker) in the neutral side at all unless you use one where a fault on that side will turn off the live as well (e.g. a double pole circuit breaker, but not 2 independant single pole ones). Oh yes, the outer cap of an ES or similar light bulb is the neutral side. > distribution is a 120-0-120v distribution transformer with the center tap > connected to ground. So, for common 120v wall receptacles, one side (in Yep. My Tekky curve tracer's manaul gives transformer primary winding connection diagramss for 3 configurations : 115V, 230V with one side grounds, and 230V with the centre tap grounds. I believe it's to reduce noise, etc, it's not any safety problem > addition to the grounding prong) is grounded. I've popped the GFI on my > workbench outlet on several occasions--in every case, it involved a "hot > chassis" piece of equipment. Sparks are pretty, but I'll take the > inconvenience, thank you. Well, when working on a live chassis set, or on the mains side of an SMPSU, I use an isolating transformer. It means I can connect the 'scope to points on the device without damage or blowing the breaker. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 5 18:39:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 00:39:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <0J53008POIM4J1D1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Sep 4, 6 09:26:08 pm Message-ID: > Wall warts, least here in USA must be fused internally or have a thermal > interupter (usually the blow open). I've forcably opened a number of > warts to replace protective devices. I've opened up many wall warts over here and found the the transformer primary winge goes straigh to the tags on the transformer (no obvious connections to a fuse or thermal fuse) and those tags are wired straight to the mains plug pins. And yes, said wall wards have various approvals written on them. I was told that the transfromer primary is supposed to fuse safely in the event of a fault. My experience is that it doesn't (I've had shorts on the output side cause the plastic case to deform and much magic smoke to come out, but the transformer primary was still continuos after I turned the power off. I did not feel like seeing if it would ever fail). > > For many projects I use a standard 12V regulated DC wart and if higher > voltages are required a simple multivibrator or switching regulator driving > a suitable hunk of ferrite does nicely. It allows me to work inside > without scary high potentials floating around and also solves the problem > of "the right transformer". If warrented I bury the HV system in a I'd much rathere make my own supply starting with a suitable transformer. Then I know it's correctly fused, It also means I can fit a real on/off switch (in the mains circuit). Of course for experimental stuff, I just run it off the adjustable bench supply. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 5 19:06:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 01:06:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Sep 5, 6 05:42:39 pm Message-ID: > Depending on your definition of "portable"... an HP-150 with the built in > printer > could do lower case (I'm pretty sure). An HP71B + Datacomms ROM + 2225B Thinkjet printer + either an HP82164 RS232 interface or HP82168 modem is portable. It can certainly do lower case. Although personally, I'd rather carry a VT220.... Other 'sillies' would be just about any laptop computer + a portable printer. Or the Epson HX20 + suitable software (the printer on that machine will print in lower case). I assume the printer cartridge for the PX4 can too. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 5 19:13:21 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joysticks (was Re: Advice on old C64 floppies? ) In-Reply-To: <200609052250.k85Mo3GA099607@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Sep 05, 2006 05:50:03 PM Message-ID: <200609060013.k860DLGK022150@onyx.spiritone.com> > Can't you use Spectrum joysticks too?? Spectrum and a few others I believe. A lot of the systems in the 80's seemed to use the same Joystick. > Or how about Sega Megadrive or Amiga CD32 > pads?? I know it would depend on which pins > were used for button and direction detection > but they might work... > > > I hate using joysticks these days. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Do the Amiga CD32 pads work? I simply *ASSUMED* they would be wired differently, I didn't bother to try to plug it in. There was actually one sitting in the box with the cables and drives (as well as part of the parts for hooking up my Amiga 500. I have Sega Megadrive (Genesis) controllers at home as well. I'd never thought about them either (just Googled to see what the Megadrive was and check if it would work). Uh, Oh... Looks like you don't want to use an unmodified Sega controller, as you can burn out your CIA Chip. http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/display.cgi?26 Zane From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Sep 5 19:20:37 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:20:37 -0500 Subject: SunOS install docs Message-ID: There are two different "M" files: there's the miniroot, which must be copied to the swap before it's booted with the -sw flag. The other file is MUNIX, which is M(emory resident)UNIX, and fits entirely in RAM with a RAMDISK filesystem. It is what is used to label a disk when the disk is blank and can't be used for the miniroot. From ray at arachelian.com Tue Sep 5 19:35:13 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 20:35:13 -0400 Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: <200609052227.k85MRWja019786@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609052227.k85MRWja019786@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44FE17C1.7060901@arachelian.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I realize they're the same, that's why I'm so frustrated that I can't find > the 4+ 2600 Joysticks that I have! > > An interesting note, almost all the nice 3rd party ones on eBay look like > they're in the UK. > It's easy enough to rewrite a game pad. Won't work quite the same, but it'll be useable. Here's the pinouts: Basically, you need a DB9 and 5 switches. http://www.epanorama.net/documents/joystick/ataristick.html From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Sep 5 19:45:10 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 20:45:10 -0400 Subject: free HeathKit based systems - CA USA pickup; call by 10-6 or they go. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060905204323.020bd738@mail.degnanco.net> Passing along a Pls. call this guy directly. WILLIAM WEAVER wrote: > Hi > HeathKit based systems > I have some old cpm systems and 1 cpm/dos hybrid s100 bus system. > 8" floppy drives w/floppys, corvus 10meg hard drive, > 5.25" 90k hard sectored drives & floppys. > 5.25" 720k soft sectoreddrives and floppy's > Most documentation/manuals available. > tons of cpm software and very early ibmdos zdos msdos > programs & ops systems. > > any takers > getting ready to dump it all soon one way or another > so please respond by or b4 6 SEPT 06 > > email back or > ask for will 415-468-0960 leave message ok > san fran, ca From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Sep 5 16:03:52 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 21:03:52 +0000 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: References: <0J53008POIM4J1D1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Sep 4, 6 09:26:08 pm Message-ID: <20060906005919.IQLN19825.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > Wall warts, least here in USA must be fused internally or have a thermal > > interupter (usually the blow open). I've forcably opened a number of > > warts to replace protective devices. > > I've opened up many wall warts over here and found the the transformer > primary winge goes straigh to the tags on the transformer (no obvious > connections to a fuse or thermal fuse) and those tags are wired straight > to the mains plug pins. And yes, said wall wards have various approvals > written on them. > > I was told that the transfromer primary is supposed to fuse safely in the > event of a fault. My experience is that it doesn't (I've had shorts on > the output side cause the plastic case to deform and much magic smoke to > come out, but the transformer primary was still continuos after I turned > the power off. I did not feel like seeing if it would ever fail). > -tony > Actually, fire came close for mine. :O I had DSL modem's big ceramic capacitor short out across the 16V AC input and fry the wall wart transformer. Cut it open, interior all smelly and softened, primary winding opened where wires attached to blades. Exterior is mint. Fixed this with a junk VCR gutted except for transformer with a fuse & new ceramic capacitor in DSL modem. Been this way for 3 years. Cheers, Wizard From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Sep 5 20:51:54 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:51:54 -0400 Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Depending on your definition of "portable"... an HP-150 with > > the built in printer could do lower case (I'm pretty sure). > > An HP71B + Datacomms ROM + 2225B Thinkjet printer + either an HP82164 > RS232 interface or HP82168 modem is portable. It can certainly do > lower case. > > Although personally, I'd rather carry a VT220.... > > Other 'sillies' would be just about any laptop computer + a portable > printer. I don't think I was being silly. The HP-150 with the _BUILT_IN_ printer was fairly compact. You would only have to carry it and its keyboard as the terminal operations were built in. I seem to recall a padded bag designed just for that purpose. The 150 with no drives (not required for terminal operations) was a little bit smaller than the original Mac. I seem to recall it as a nice terminal... it had a pleasant font with bright, bold, underline and maybe italic, smooth scrolling and a point addressable graphics mode (I once wrote a program to display fractals on it). -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/437 - Release Date: 9/4/2006 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 5 21:28:35 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:28:35 -0700 Subject: Joysticks (was Re: Advice on old C64 floppies? ) In-Reply-To: <200609060013.k860DLGK022150@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609060013.k860DLGK022150@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: At 5:13 PM -0700 9/5/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Do the Amiga CD32 pads work? I simply *ASSUMED* they would be wired >differently, I didn't bother to try to plug it in. There was actually one I found indication online that the CD32 pads should work, however, I can't get any of the fire buttons on the one I have to work. The directional part seems to sort of work, but I had to use the space bar to fire in the game I was playing. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 5 21:36:24 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 20:36:24 -0600 Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44FE3428.4030803@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Oh WOW!. That's one beuatiful machine. Why can't things like this ever > turn up on my side of the Pond? Other than line voltage it sounds like a nice system for you... I suspect if you really wanted that bad -- shipping costs would not be a problem. > -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 5 21:46:32 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:46:32 -0400 Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: <200609052227.k85MRWja019786@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609052227.k85MRWja019786@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200609052246.32222.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 05 September 2006 06:27 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > On Tuesday 05 September 2006 02:56 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Still can't find a Joystick (found Joysticks for literally every > > > other system today, and I know I have 4+ 2600 joysticks), > > > > They're the same... > > I realize they're the same, that's why I'm so frustrated that I can't find > the 4+ 2600 Joysticks that I have! Oh. Guess I mis-read that... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rickb at bensene.com Tue Sep 5 22:58:26 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 20:58:26 -0700 Subject: portable printing terminals Message-ID: A Teletype Model 43 could be considered "portable", and to my recollection it used a 7x9 dot matrix printhead, which did lower case nicely. It also used "real" paper as opposed to the thermal stuff of the TI Silent 700's. It was definitely noisier than a Silent 700, but the 43 was very nice to use. I used one of these for a time a long time ago, and found it to be a really nice terminal for use on timesharing systems. Would love to find one today. I have a couple of TI Silent 700's in that have built-in acoustic couplers, and do lower case...except that the lower case is just a shrunken down version of the upper case character set. Readable, but definitely what you'd want to print out RUNOFF documents with. Plus, that thermal paper isn't very durable for long-term document storage. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 5 16:07:30 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:07:30 -0400 Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? Message-ID: <0J55005BM1AVRUOK@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? > From: "e.stiebler" > Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:13:48 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> The Z280 was used on the YASBEC (Yet Another Single Board Computer) and a few >> others that slip my mind. >Pictures I found, show an z180 on the YASBEC :( >The comp.os.cpm FAQ says it is a hd64180 ... >(which we used here to drive a 82768 intel graphics processor) >Was there a z280 version too ? There were really many Yasbc(s). ;) Yes, it was described in TCJ years ago. It was on eurocard with their nice connectors. I have one I did using a section ISA16 bus and ISA 16 for IO, DISK and herc mono video. It was a hexperiment. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 5 16:46:04 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:46:04 -0400 Subject: portable printing terminals Message-ID: <0J55004FF333FJW1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: portable printing terminals > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 14:35:23 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, David Griffith wrote: >> I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable >> printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone >> here aware of one that does do lowercase? > >There was an accessory ROM for the Silent 700 series for lower case. >It was not a very nice font. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com What about the DEC LA12, it was a complete KSR printing terminal with/WO modem. Allison From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 6 01:17:23 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 23:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: <0J55004FF333FJW1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J55004FF333FJW1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Allison wrote: > >On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, David Griffith wrote: > >> I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable > >> printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone > >> here aware of one that does do lowercase? > > > >There was an accessory ROM for the Silent 700 series for lower case. > >It was not a very nice font. > > What about the DEC LA12, it was a complete KSR printing terminal with/WO > modem. Hmm... And now to look for one... -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Sep 6 03:11:51 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:11:51 -0700 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems In-Reply-To: <000401c6ce22$3f23f990$0401010a@GIZMO> References: <000401c6ce22$3f23f990$0401010a@GIZMO> Message-ID: <44FE82C7.3060206@mindspring.com> I've been working on an old PDP-8m and the last :-) problem I'm having is with the front panel switches (LOAD ADDR to be specific). I thought I'd throw this out to see if anyone else has run across this particular issue. Of the front panel switches, DEPOSIT, EXAM, CONT all work fine. The CLEAR, EXTD ADDR LOAD, and LOAD ADDR switches are nonfunctional. I have verified the switches themselves are OK (low resistance < 1ohm in either of the two SPDT positions, high resistance otherwise). What I see is strange behavior in the debounce circuit, and in fact the debounce circuit itself is one I have never seen before (and IMHO the designer should be hung by his entrails). In ASCII art, here is a synopsis of the circuit: +5V +5V 1/6*7404 | 1/4*74S175 | |\ / +-----+-----+ | \ to 470 \ GND--| Dn Qn |------| >O-----9318 ohm / | | | / priority \ GND--|>Clk QBn |O--+ |/ encoder | | | | +-------------o| MR~ | | | +-----+-----+ | | | | __O ADDR GND | O-/ LOAD | | O------------------------------+ | +----+ | __O XTND O-/ LOAD | O---------->QBn... | +----+ ... | __O O-/ DEPOSIT | O---------->QBn... GND The inactive position of each of the six SPDT switches is in the 'up' state, such that all the QBn~ outputs are left floating, and the MR~ reset input to all the flops (two 74S175 devices total) is pulled low to ground thru the switch tree. If any switch is toggled to the active state, the MR~ chain to ground is broken, and the MR~ to all the flops goes high. This has been verified and works as expected. When the switch makes the other contact, the QB~ output (yes, the output) is backdriven hard to ground while the switch is active. Ostensibly the idea (at least I think) is that when the QB~ is pulled low this will force Q high, which output is then inverted and presented to the active low input of an eight bit priority encoder. When the switch is released, the MR~ chain is again made, and all the flops are then reset. So it goes in theory. Now I've found that of the 6 sections of two 74S175 devices in use, three work (all on one device) and three don't (split across the two devices). For all the sections, I see the correct H/L levels being asserted on all the 74S175 pins, its just that for 3 of the six the Qn outputs are solid low, never toggling high when the respective switch is made. For what it's worth, the bottom three switches in the chain work reliably (DEP, EXM, CONT), the top three don't (CLR, EXTD, ADDR). I don't think is just a coincidence, but a symptom, but of what? Switch resistance and/or capacitance is about all I can think of. I've replaced the top 74S175 device (originally a Signetics 74S175 date code 1970) with a socket, and have tried other 74x175 parts but none work at all (NAT 74LS175 1983, TI 74AS175 1986, SIG 74S175 1984, TI 74175 1974). Even on the bench in a proto board I can't get any of these devices to behave like the original. Yanking the QB~ output to hard ground does not force the Q output high. So was DEC relying on the aberrant behavior of a 1970 Signetics 74S175? I'm about ready to rip out the two bogus '175s and replace them with some other logic (three '00s if I calculate correctly). Anybody have any other ideas on what to look for or at? Don North AK6DN From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Sep 6 03:57:59 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:57:59 +0200 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems In-Reply-To: <44FE82C7.3060206@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08487F5B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: woensdag 6 september 2006 10:12 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems > > [... snip ...] >(and IMHO the designer should be hung by his entrails). Agreed! [... snip more ...] > I'm about ready to rip out the two bogus '175s and replace > them with some other logic (three '00s if I calculate correctly). I can't be of much help, because shorting a TTL output to force a transition in the inside logic of the D flipflop to flip the other output, is not my cup of tea. However, perhaps this will work. It keeps the 175, but you might need some changes in the traces/wriring, Don. +5V +5V +5V | | | | | | |~| |~| |~| | | | | | | |_| |_| |_| 1/6*7404 | | | 1/4*74S175 |\ | | | +-----------+ | \ to | | +---| Dn Qn |------| >O-----9318 | | | | | / priority | +-----+----|>Clk | |/ encoder | | | | +----------------o| MR~ Qn* |o--- | | +-----------+ | | __O ADDR | O-/ LOAD | | O------------+ | (active position) GND The switch is drawn in its rest position. The flipflop is held in reset thru MR* at GND. The D input is already high. When you push the switch, MR* goes high at a moment later CLK goes low. When you release the switch Clk goes high again, and the flip flop loads the D input to the output. A moment after that MR* goes low again and resets the flip flop. This is theory ... test in practice :-) success, Henk PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 6 06:04:46 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 07:04:46 -0400 Subject: SunOS install docs In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Sep 2006 19:20:37 CDT." Message-ID: <200609061104.k86B4kOe022250@mwave.heeltoe.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > > There are two different "M" files: there's the miniroot, which must be copied > to the swap before it's booted with the -sw flag. >The other file is MUNIX, which is M(emory resident)UNIX, and fits entirely in >RAM with a RAMDISK filesystem. It is what is used to label a disk when the >disk is blank and can't be used for the miniroot. yes. I didn't find any munix images on the sunos tapes, however. I only found miniroot images (which are entire file file systems intended to be copied to the swap partision. Near as I can tell The 2.0 miniroot has a disk label and is intenteded to be copied to the raw disk (i.e. sd(0,0,0)). The 3.2+ miniroots are just the file system. In both cases there is a diag program which can be used to format and label the disk. The "-as" args to the kernel just tell it to ask for it's root device (for the file system) and to run in single user mode. -a is critical to running from the swap otherwise it will try and mount sd(0,0,0) as the root. But in all cases the code crashes for some completely different reason. Only the 2.0 code runs, but the miniroot has a disk label for a disk which is not supported by the emulator. -brad From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 08:26:58 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 09:26:58 -0400 Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I used one of these for a time a long time ago, and found it to be a > really nice terminal for use on timesharing systems. Would love to find > one today. A 43? I am trying to get rid of one! -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Sep 6 08:54:02 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 09:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Back in February, someone mentioned the odd looking tape hardware used in the TV show "Search" from 1972: http://www.probecontrol.com/ Someone guessed that these were "memory tape loop" units. I found the same units in Woody Allen's "Sleeper": http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Tapeloop.jpg Can anyone identify these, positively? Were they really data storage units, or audio units? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 6 09:39:00 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: <200608312155.19603.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20060906143900.91E6A580CF@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Patrick Finnegan > > Amazingly enough, I actually care more about the articles than the adverts in > old magazines - partly because most of the stuff can't be purchased anymore. > > In fact, every time I've seen someone ask about a magazine on here, they were > asking for an article, not asking about ads in it. > I agree the articles contain a lot of useful information but the advertisements give you a snapshot of the time they were created and also usually gives you prices for the product being sold. Cheers, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 6 10:05:45 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 11:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200609011734.k81HY3QG018576@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060906150545.D1ACE58579@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Cameron Kaiser > > Whether people like it or not, classic computing is going to widen as a topic > field. It's inevitable. > Maybe the list could eventually follow the user group format - have a main area but also have the more focused SIGs. Cheers, Bryan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 6 08:30:43 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 09:30:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems Message-ID: <0J5600FC3AT7U78I@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems > From: Don North > Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:11:51 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > *****some snippage done.... >Of the front panel switches, DEPOSIT, EXAM, CONT all work fine. >The CLEAR, EXTD ADDR LOAD, and LOAD ADDR switches are nonfunctional. > >What I see is strange behavior in the debounce circuit, and in fact >the debounce circuit itself is one I have never seen before (and IMHO >the designer should be hung by his entrails). > >In ASCII art, here is a synopsis of the circuit: > > +5V +5V 1/6*7404 > | 1/4*74S175 | |\ > / +-----+-----+ | \ to > 470 \ GND--| Dn Qn |------| >O-----9318 > ohm / | | | / priority > \ GND--|>Clk QBn |O--+ |/ encoder > | | | | > +-------------o| MR~ | | > | +-----+-----+ | > | | | > __O ADDR GND | > O-/ LOAD | > | O------------------------------+ > | > +----+ > | > __O XTND > O-/ LOAD > | O---------->QBn... > | > +----+ > ... > | > __O > O-/ DEPOSIT > | O---------->QBn... >GND If you understand TTL and specifically TTL FFs then this is both logical and sane. Most NON-BUFFERED (74x74, 74x174, 74x175) D-FFs the output is fed back to the opposites input so any overload or transient to ground or Vcc (not safe for device) at the output will affect the devices state. Obviously if either output is "forced" to a state the other will follow inverted. The caveat is if either input cannot change due to internal failure or external logic failure the state will not change but you may see pulses when it tries to change. Pulling to ground is is safe as the output current (top transistor) is limited where the lower transistor can conduct hard. Unorthodox looking but, completely legit. You would get the same effect using a pair of (two from) inverters (7404 for example) cross coupling them and putting a switch across the outputs to debounce the switch. Bottom line is it worked for 30+ years and something else is broken. Now one of the things I've seen with older TTL is inputs that are stuck (likely ESD or other on die failure) to either Vcc or Ground. This could be either the '174 or the gate/inverter they drive is failed this way. >I've replaced the top 74S175 device (originally a Signetics 74S175 >date code 1970) with a socket, and have tried other 74x175 parts >but none work at all (NAT 74LS175 1983, TI 74AS175 1986, SIG 74S175 >1984, TI 74175 1974). Even on the bench in a proto board I can't >get any of these devices to behave like the original. Yanking the >QB~ output to hard ground does not force the Q output high. So >was DEC relying on the aberrant behavior of a 1970 Signetics 74S175? No, I've done this with TI, Signetics, National and others. >I'm about ready to rip out the two bogus '175s and replace them with >some other logic (three '00s if I calculate correctly). > >Anybody have any other ideas on what to look for or at? Check the down stream logic for stuck inputs. When I repaired my 8f (1973 manufacture date) I had several gates with the inputs stuck (the driving gate was ok) where the input was hard high or hard low at the pin and it was the gate itself not driving logic at fault. A milliampmeter confirmed one gate (7400) with pin 1 hard to VCC (Iol was >100ma). Drove me nuts as the first part replaced was a 7474 driving that gate with no fix! I'd give the 7404 the hairy eyeball! A quick test is socket a '175 with the Q and /Q output pins floating and using a jumper to ground make it flip [It WILL NOT IF MR/ is asserted, you can bend out the MR/ pin to avoid that.]. Then test the '04 for input changes output. Allison From mcsele at niagarac.on.ca Wed Sep 6 08:59:08 2006 From: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 09:59:08 -0400 Subject: Problems with a DEC RL-01 drive on a PDP-8/A Message-ID: I have a PDP-8/A with an RL-01 drive which does not want to boot and am looking for advice ... The machine (outlined at http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/staff/mcsele/pdp8a.html) is functioning properly but 'hangs' when the bootstrap is exectured for the RL-01 drive (the FAULT light blinking briefly then extinguishing). The RL-01 disks were last booted about 10 years ago and were supposedly bootable then (presumably with OS/8). Stepping-through the bootsrtap code, the program hands on the READ HEADER function. A diagnostic program was written to do a READ ERROR at that point and apparently a DCRC error is occurring (AC=4401 in response to the RRER instruction). A GET STATUS was also run and the drive operation verified, but apparently there is still a CRC error. I have outlined all tests perfromed on that web page above (including status words in the silo after the GET STATUS command). If anyone has experience with such a drive I'd love to hear your thoughts on it! I have tried two supposedly bootable cartridges and received the same results. Thanks ... Mark Professor Mark Csele Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-8 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 6 10:26:30 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 08:26:30 -0700 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems In-Reply-To: <44FE82C7.3060206@mindspring.com> References: <000401c6ce22$3f23f990$0401010a@GIZMO> <44FE82C7.3060206@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200609060826.30921.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hi Don, On Wednesday 06 September 2006 01:11, Don North wrote: --snip-- > In ASCII art, here is a synopsis of the circuit: > > +5V +5V 1/6*7404 > > | 1/4*74S175 | |\ > > / +-----+-----+ | \ to > 470 \ GND--| Dn Qn |------| >O-----9318 > ohm / | | | / priority > \ GND--|>Clk QBn |O--+ |/ encoder > > +-------------o| MR~ | | > > | +-----+-----+ | > > __O ADDR GND | > O-/ LOAD | > > | O------------------------------+ > > +----+ > > __O XTND > O-/ LOAD > > | O---------->QBn... > > +----+ > ... > > __O > O-/ DEPOSIT > > | O---------->QBn... > > GND > --snip-- > Anybody have any other ideas on what to look for or at? The method of tying a switch (or OC pulldown) to the output of a FF in order to "forcibly" switch it is not particularly uncommon. (If you think that's bad, you ought to see some of the PDP-1 logic ;-) At any rate, the circuit is described in detail in the PDP 8/E/F/M maintenance manual Volume I on pages 3-108 and 3-109 - and IMHO - it's a good write-up. I, too, had to hack my way though that circuitry to get my PDP-8/F working. I had very similar symptoms to what you are experiencing (some control switches working, some not) but the indications were quite different. Here's a couple of suggestions: 1) Since the circuit, as designed, works perfectly for the several PDP-8/E/Fs I've worked on (and thousands of others that were in production), I wouldn't "redesign" it. 2) I'd check the inverters on the output of the 74175 to see if they are pulling the FF the "other way". 3) If the inverters are O.K., I'd start tracing out the circuit to make sure there's not a short and/or open between/in the related traces. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 6 13:23:59 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 18:23:59 +0000 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44FF123F.5050204@yahoo.co.uk> Hijacking the thread for a second, but does anyone have any interesting ideas as to what to do with a few Nixies, other than building the obvious (but none-the-less cool) clock? I scored my first ever Nixies today, nine of them, from some scrap equipment [1] - now it's a case of figuring out what to do with them! There's six NL840s, plus three NL842s (which have a decimal point). They all seem to work, except for one tube where one quarter of the '8' character seems to have given up. [1] They came in "digital moisture computers", where the digital bit just means it has a digital readout and the computer bit just means it has a bit of analogue gubbins in there to calculate moisture from samples - there's nothing too exciting about the electronics! :-) I kept one of the three units purely for the PSU (just in case it has enough guts to drive all 9 Nixies) and then just pulled the tubes + driver boards from the other two. Chip dates suggest 1980, which seems quite late to me - when did LCD displays become widespread in equipment? Must have been about that time? Damn, but they look nice when working - bright orange along the centres of the digits with a faint blue glow around the edges. Far nicer than the Nixie counter that we have at the museum (now someone's going to tell me that's a sign that all the tubes are about to die ;) cheers Jules From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Sep 6 13:22:08 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 20:22:08 +0200 Subject: Nixies, was Re: Octal In-Reply-To: <44FF123F.5050204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44FF123F.5050204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44FF11D0.1030801@bluewin.ch> Jules Richardson wrote: > Hijacking the thread for a second, but does anyone have any interesting > ideas as to what to do with a few Nixies, other than building the > obvious (but none-the-less cool) clock? I once build a 12 bit TTL based-computer with 4 nixies as readout, for PC, accu and memory data Jos Dreesen From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Sep 6 13:41:29 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 11:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 Message-ID: TEN YEARS AGO, a typical home computer system might have been a box with an Intel processor inside running a Microsoft operating system. And there were a few Macs. Today, a typical home computer system might be a box with an Intel processor inside running a Microsoft operating system. And there are a few Macs. What a crock. Give me them old timey computers, damn it! VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 9.0 November 4-5, 2006 Computer History Museum Mountain View, California http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/ Make an entry in your PDA! It is time once again to shun your modern day computing monstrosity and spend a weekend with its venerable ancestors at the ninth annual Vintage Computer Festival. VCF 9.0 takes place on the weekend of November 4-5 at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. Highlights of this VCF event include: * A celebration of the 30th anniversary of Apple Computer Apple didn't want to do it, so we will! Hosted by Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn, this gala event will feature a bevy of early Apple founders, including the big man himself, Woz! * A reprise of the original Sol-20 prototype Nine years ago, at the very first Vintage Computer Festival, Lee Felsenstein and Bob Marsh reunited after many years to jointly present the original prototype of the Sol-20, which hadn't been seen in public for over 20 years. This year, Lee and a gaggle of Processor Technology alumni will bring back the venerable grand- daddy of all Sol-20s to celebrate this ground-breaking personal computer. By the way, coverage of the first Sol-20 reunion can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/vcf98/vcfpics3.htm * The first Vintage Computer Film Festival That's right, a film festival dedicated to movies and documentaries that have a vintage computing theme! At the past two VCF events we've screened Jason Scott's "BBS Documentary" and Greg Maletic's "The Future of Pinball", as well as "Walking Rainbow", a remembrance of Homebrew Computer Club co-founder Fred Moore. We've decided to take these screenings a step further and turn them into a full-blown film festival to coincide with the VCF. Film buffs will definitely want to take note and stay tuned for further announcements. * Hands-on Build-It-Yourself workshops The VCF is proud to debut the first Build-It-Yourself workshops, featuring the hottest retro-computing and retro-gaming kits out there, including Andre' LaMothe's XGameStation Pico Edition and Bob Armstrong's Cosmac ELF. More details to come soon. * Speakers, Exhibits, and the VCF Marketplace Of course, no VCF would be complete without a terrific line-up of amazing and interesting speakers. This year's bunch includes Paul Saffo of the Institute for the Future, microcomputer historian C. Murray McCullough, Archaeologist and VCF Fellow Christine Finn, and more to come with new speakers being added weekly. We're also receiving submissions for some phenomenal and exciting exhibits. Perhaps you've got a computer you'd like to bring along to show to the world? Sign up to be an exhibitor! Go here: http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/exhibit.php And of course we have the ever-fabulous VCF Marketplace featuring hard-to-find items that will start your adrenaline pumping. Bring cash. Lots of cash. * more, More, MORE! Another fantastic celebration is in the works, and I don't think we're done just yet, so watch for upcoming announcements to litter your inbox and check the website for more exciting details to be revealed in the coming hours, days and weeks! Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org/ P.S. The Macs were then, and are now, much cooler than the PCs ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 6 14:11:02 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:11:02 -0400 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609061511.02781.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 September 2006 09:54 am, Mike Loewen wrote: > Back in February, someone mentioned the odd looking tape hardware used > in the TV show "Search" from 1972: > > http://www.probecontrol.com/ > > Someone guessed that these were "memory tape loop" units. I found the > same units in Woody Allen's "Sleeper": > > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Tapeloop.jpg > > Can anyone identify these, positively? Were they really data storage > units, or audio units? Wow. I've no idea about those actual units (and wouldn't it be nice to have so much space to spare that you could do stuff like that? :-) but I remember having some thoughts about using quarter-inch tape in a big loop like that as some form of "bulk storage" way back when, before I'd ever gotten the chance to even get close to getting my hands on an actual computer or any real computer hardware... My thoughts didn't get anywhere near that fancy, though, just some sort of a "bin" to keep the tape in, letting it loop how it would, and a single capstan and pinch roller to move it along. Judging by the dual illuminated meters in the picture, I'd guess that was supposed to be some sort of stereo (audio) setup, or maybe two tracks of data. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 6 14:13:19 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:13:19 -0400 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: <20060906143900.91E6A580CF@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060906143900.91E6A580CF@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200609061513.19846.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 September 2006 10:39 am, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Patrick Finnegan > > > Amazingly enough, I actually care more about the articles than the > > adverts in old magazines - partly because most of the stuff can't be > > purchased anymore. > > > > In fact, every time I've seen someone ask about a magazine on here, they > > were asking for an article, not asking about ads in it. > > I agree the articles contain a lot of useful information but the > advertisements give you a snapshot of the time they were created > and also usually gives you prices for the product being sold. True. But those prices were, for me at least, the ultimate bringdown when it came to wishing I could have stuff that as it turned out I could no way afford back in those days. Excepting those ads that were for just TTL chips, and a bit later on LSTTL, where the prices started out high and just kept on dropping. :-) I know of a guy who used to run a business called "Washington Computers" that had ads in some of those old magazines. He's expressed some interest in getting copies of that stuff, so if any of you guys have any of those ads and can pass along any scans, I'd sure appreciate it -- and I'd pass them along to him right quick. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Sep 6 14:31:52 2006 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:31:52 -0400 Subject: SGI -> Mips/Irix EOP'd Message-ID: <1157571112.7390.2.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> bye-bye... http://www.sgi.com/support/mips_irix.html Not unsurprising, but I don't think it leaves SGI with much of a product... What's left their Linux Altix's? David From jvdg at sparcpark.net Wed Sep 6 15:47:41 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 22:47:41 +0200 Subject: SGI -> Mips/Irix EOP'd In-Reply-To: <1157571112.7390.2.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: On 9/6/06 9:31 PM, David Holland wrote: > bye-bye... > > http://www.sgi.com/support/mips_irix.html > > > Not unsurprising, but I don't think it leaves SGI with much of a product... > What's left their Linux Altix's? They're a storage company now, IIRC. Oh, well. At least it means my collection of SGI's has a chance of ever being "complete." ,xtG .tsooJ -- Do you really think that when Jesus comes back he'll want to see a cross? -- Joost van de Griek From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 6 16:32:26 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:32:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Joysticks (was Re: Advice on old C64 floppies? ) Message-ID: <200609062132.k86LWQbB032369@keith.ezwind.net> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 5:13 PM -0700 9/5/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Do the Amiga CD32 pads work? I simply *ASSUMED* > they would be wired > >differently, I didn't bother to try to plug it in . > There was actually one > > I found indication online that the CD32 pads shoul d > work, however, I > can't get any of the fire buttons on the one I hav e > to work. The > directional part seems to sort of work, but I had to > use the space > bar to fire in the game I was playing. > > Zane > I have gotten CD32 pads to work on my Amiga. The red button can be used a a joystick fire button, and one other can *sometimes* be used for games that detect 2 joystick fire buttons. It was only a theory that they might work on other computers. Lke I said in my original mail, some of the wires *may* need swapping to get it to fully work. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 6 17:51:20 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 15:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joysticks (was Re: Advice on old C64 floppies? ) In-Reply-To: <200609062132.k86LWQbB032369@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Sep 06, 2006 04:32:26 PM Message-ID: <200609062251.k86MpKQa014379@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have gotten CD32 pads to work on my Amiga. > The red button can be used a a joystick fire > button, and one other can *sometimes* be > used for games that detect 2 joystick fire > buttons. I'm pretty sure I had been using it on my Amiga at some point a few years ago, that's really the only reason that makes sense for my having the CD32 pad in that box. > It was only a theory that they might work > on other computers. Logically it should work. I really should take a meter to the CD32 pad, as I have a feeling I might have a bad wire or something in there somewhere. Unlike the Sega controllers, I don't mind modifying this controller, as I no longer have a CD32. I didn't really have time to play with this last night. > Lke I said in my original mail, some of the > wires *may* need swapping to get it to > fully work. I don't believe so, however, as I understand it, only one button will work. I'm still holding out hope for finding my Atari and Wico Joysticks! Hopefully it will be cool enough on Saturday that I can go up to storage and look for them. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 6 18:13:39 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 18:13:39 -0500 Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: <200609052231.k85MVr8P019901@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609052231.k85MVr8P019901@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060906181024.05cb65d0@mail> >> I know that Commodore made their own joysticks, but everyone I knew during >> the C64's heyday simply used Atari 2600 sticks. Amiga Corp. made C-64 joysticks and the "joy board". I remember in 1984 knowing the Amiga name from their joysticks, thinking it was odd that a joystick company would make a new computer... http://pages.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/Joyboard/index.html - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 6 18:09:14 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 18:09:14 -0500 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060906180844.05cb38d0@mail> At 08:54 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote: >Back in February, someone mentioned the odd looking tape hardware used in the TV show "Search" from 1972: Here we are in the future and we're not using those funny OCR computer fonts, are we? - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 6 17:34:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 23:34:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: portable printing terminals In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Sep 5, 6 09:51:54 pm Message-ID: > > I don't think I was being silly. The HP-150 with the _BUILT_IN_ > printer was fairly compact. You would only have to carry it and > its keyboard as the terminal operations were built in. I seem to Not having an original 150, just a 150-II which doesn't have a built-in printer, can you tell me if the ROM terminal software allows you to print out incoming characters as they come (rather than say, just doing screen dumps). Another possibility (if we're considering things that would normally be called computers) is the HP Integral. It doesn't have terminal software in ROM, but it does have a single internal floppy drive. And a Thinkjet printer on top. There's even a little space where you can store the mains lead and a couple of floppies [1] when you want to carry the machine about. Alas the Integral doesn't have a serial port as standard. There are 2 expansion slots, and serial cards existed (but I am _still_ looking for one for my Integral). [1] The UK mains lead, with the large plug we use over here, doesn't really fit. And I don't like storing floppies next to the printer stepper motors. So I use that space to store the optional mouse. > recall a padded bag designed just for that purpose. The 150 with > no drives (not required for terminal operations) was a little bit > smaller than the original Mac. I seem to recall it as a nice > terminal... it had a pleasant font with bright, bold, underline > and maybe italic, smooth scrolling and a point addressable graphics > mode (I once wrote a program to display fractals on it). Indeed. I should have the manual giving the control codes, etc (didn't they call it AGIOS -- Alphanumeric and Graphics I/O System). I know I have the techref for the 150 with the 150-II suplement (giving schematics, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 6 17:40:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 23:40:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <44FE3428.4030803@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 5, 6 08:36:24 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Oh WOW!. That's one beuatiful machine. Why can't things like this ever > > turn up on my side of the Pond? > Other than line voltage it sounds like a nice system for you... The line votlage is not a problem, at least not with the HP parts of the system. HP machines of that date (and I know this applies to the 9830 and 9866 because I have both, and I have schematics of both [1]) typically had a mains transformer with 2 primary windings. One was a plain 120V winding, the other was a 120V winding tapped at 100 V. There were 2 slide switches on the back of the instrument, giving 4 possible input voltage settings : 240V : Both 120V windings in series 220V : the plain 120V winding in series with the 100V part of the other winding 120V : Both 120V windings in parallel 100V : The two 120V windings in parallel with mains input to the 100V section. That winding acts as an autotransformer, stepping up the mains to 120V for the other winding. There might be an issue with mains frequency if that mass memory unit is an 8" floppy drive. Such drives normally used synchronous motors, so the spindle speed was controled by the mains frequency. > I suspect if you really wanted that bad -- shipping costs would not be a problem. Well, it would probably be a small fraction of what the machine is worth, but even so, I couldn't even really afford the shipping costs, let alone actually paying for the machine. -tony From jvdg at sparcpark.net Wed Sep 6 18:33:54 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 01:33:54 +0200 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060906180844.05cb38d0@mail> Message-ID: On 9/7/06 1:09 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 08:54 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote: > >> Back in February, someone mentioned the odd looking tape hardware used in the >> TV show "Search" from 1972: > > Here we are in the future and we're not using those funny OCR computer fonts, > are we? No, but we should be! DAMN those are stylish! ,xtG .tsooJ -- Do you really think that when Jesus comes back he'll want to see a cross? -- Joost van de Griek From Steve at oceanrobots.net Wed Sep 6 18:45:28 2006 From: Steve at oceanrobots.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 19:45:28 -0400 Subject: ECD Micro-Mind and Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44FF5D98.10903@oceanrobots.net> Sure. But who has an ECD Micro-Mind?; best of them all. Steve Sellam Ismail wrote: > TEN YEARS AGO, a typical home > computer system might have > been a box with an Intel > processor inside running a > Microsoft operating system. > And there were a few Macs. > > Today, a typical home computer > system might be a box with an > Intel processor inside running > a Microsoft operating system. > And there are a few Macs. > > What a crock. > > Give me them old timey computers, damn it! > > > VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 9.0 > November 4-5, 2006 > Computer History Museum > Mountain View, California > http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/ > > >Make an entry in your PDA! It is time once again to shun your modern >day computing monstrosity and spend a weekend with its venerable >ancestors at the ninth annual Vintage Computer Festival. VCF 9.0 >takes place on the weekend of November 4-5 at the Computer History >Museum in Mountain View, California. > >Highlights of this VCF event include: > >* A celebration of the 30th anniversary of Apple Computer > > Apple didn't want to do it, so we will! Hosted by Bruce Damer of > the DigiBarn, this gala event will feature a bevy of early Apple > founders, including the big man himself, Woz! > >* A reprise of the original Sol-20 prototype > > Nine years ago, at the very first Vintage Computer Festival, Lee > Felsenstein and Bob Marsh reunited after many years to jointly > present the original prototype of the Sol-20, which hadn't been seen > in public for over 20 years. This year, Lee and a gaggle of > Processor Technology alumni will bring back the venerable grand- > daddy of all Sol-20s to celebrate this ground-breaking personal > computer. > > By the way, coverage of the first Sol-20 reunion can be found here: > > http://www.vintage.org/vcf98/vcfpics3.htm > >* The first Vintage Computer Film Festival > > That's right, a film festival dedicated to movies and documentaries > that have a vintage computing theme! At the past two VCF events > we've screened Jason Scott's "BBS Documentary" and Greg Maletic's > "The Future of Pinball", as well as "Walking Rainbow", a remembrance > of Homebrew Computer Club co-founder Fred Moore. We've decided to > take these screenings a step further and turn them into a full-blown > film festival to coincide with the VCF. Film buffs will definitely > want to take note and stay tuned for further announcements. > >* Hands-on Build-It-Yourself workshops > > The VCF is proud to debut the first Build-It-Yourself workshops, > featuring the hottest retro-computing and retro-gaming kits out > there, including Andre' LaMothe's XGameStation Pico Edition and > Bob Armstrong's Cosmac ELF. More details to come soon. > >* Speakers, Exhibits, and the VCF Marketplace > > Of course, no VCF would be complete without a terrific line-up of > amazing and interesting speakers. This year's bunch includes Paul > Saffo of the Institute for the Future, microcomputer historian C. > Murray McCullough, Archaeologist and VCF Fellow Christine Finn, > and more to come with new speakers being added weekly. > > We're also receiving submissions for some phenomenal and exciting > exhibits. Perhaps you've got a computer you'd like to bring along > to show to the world? Sign up to be an exhibitor! Go here: > > http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/exhibit.php > > And of course we have the ever-fabulous VCF Marketplace featuring > hard-to-find items that will start your adrenaline pumping. Bring > cash. Lots of cash. > >* more, More, MORE! > > Another fantastic celebration is in the works, and I don't think > we're done just yet, so watch for upcoming announcements to litter > your inbox and check the website for more exciting details to be > revealed in the coming hours, days and weeks! > > >Best regards, > >Sellam Ismail >Producer >Vintage Computer Festival >http://www.vintage.org/ > >P.S. The Macs were then, and are now, much cooler than the PCs ;) > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 6 18:51:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 16:51:56 -0700 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> On 9/7/2006 at 1:33 AM Joost van de Griek wrote: >No, but we should be! DAMN those are stylish! I think a lot of old TV programs used the MICR characters such as seen on bank checks. (or cheques). I used to have a typewriter (Olivetti) with the OCR-A font on it--a memo typed in it looked just plain crude. I think that the OCR-B font available for daisywheel printers is one of the better fixed-spacing fonts. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 19:06:00 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:06:00 +1200 Subject: Problems with a DEC RL-01 drive on a PDP-8/A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/7/06, Mark Csele wrote: > I have a PDP-8/A with an RL-01 drive which does not want to boot and am > looking for advice ... > > http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/staff/mcsele/pdp8a.html) is > functioning properly but 'hangs' when the bootstrap is exectured for the > RL-01 drive (the FAULT light blinking briefly then extinguishing). The > RL-01 disks were last booted about 10 years ago and were supposedly > bootable then (presumably with OS/8). You didn't say anything in your message or on your web page about the READY light. Is it lit when you mount the pack? If it's lit, does it blink when you step through the bootstrap? It's a really fundamental thing, but since it seems that you recently acquired the system, did you lock the heads before transporting it? (small metal square with one screw on the corner that blocks the heads from sliding out during transport) If someone else locked them, did you _unlock_ them? If you moved the drive with the heads unlocked, that could be your problem. If there was a pack in the drive at the time, that _really_ could be your problem. Something else to check is the cable. I have a PDP-8/a w/RL8A. I recall that the controller-end of the cable is somewhat fragile (for those that don't have one to look at, it's not like an RL11; it's a bare Berg connector with 40-ish wires coming out of a round RL cable in a twisted fan - more like the cables I've seen for an RLV12). I know on at least one occasion, I had to repair one of the outer conductors of my RL8A cable because the wire popped out of the crimp-on pin in the Berg connector. As for your speculation on disk capacity, the RL01 is a 5MB unit, under OS/8, it presents three "devices" - an RL0A of 2MB, an RL0B of 2MB, and an RL0C with the remaining 1MB. Due to how it assigns the blocks, RL0A and RL0B are laid out somewhat efficiently; RL0C is the "leftovers", and when you use it, the disk seeks all over the place. It's not uncommon to use RL0C as an archival area and to not necessarily even load the drivers for it - freeing up a driver slot for, say, a floppy or other storage device. -ethan From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Sep 6 19:10:04 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 19:10:04 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060906190627.0b4a2250@localhost> Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police From slashdot.org article http://slashdot.org/articles/06/09/05/2028258.shtml [Reproduced entirely below] Posted by kdawson on Tuesday September 05, @07:59PM from the at-least-it-wasn't-a-trash-80 dept. It's funny. Laugh. toomanyairmiles writes, "It seems that Wolfgang Priklopil, the communications technician who kidnapped Austrian pre-teen Natascha Kampusch, relied on a Commodore 64 as his primary machine. Interestingly this is presenting some problems to the Austrian computer forensics people. Major General Gerhard Lang of the Federal Criminal Investigations Bureau told reporters it would 'complicate investigators' efforts' and would be difficult to transfer the files to modern computers 'without loss.' Could this be the latest in the criminal world's security strategy? Can we expect to see Spectrums, Archimedes, and Atari STs turning up in police investigations soon?" [Several hundred clueless and a few clueful comments follow-- see the article on slashdot.org, op. cit.] [SF] Laws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice.--Odo (A Man Alone) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 6 19:21:09 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on old C64 floppies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060907002109.18D9D585B3@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by David Griffith > > On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > On Tuesday 05 September 2006 02:56 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Still can't find a Joystick (found Joysticks for literally every > > > other system today, and I know I have 4+ 2600 joysticks), > > > > They're the same... > > I know that Commodore made their own joysticks, but everyone I knew during > the C64's heyday simply used Atari 2600 sticks. > But the *best* Commodore joystick IMHO is the Epyx 500XJ... :D Or the one Wico made (that looked the same) but had a thin coating of rubber covering the entire part held in your left hand. Cheers, Bryan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 6 19:23:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 19:23:46 -0500 Subject: Heathkit H27 Message-ID: <001001c6d213$e3ab1710$6700a8c0@BILLING> Can the H27 (dual 8" floppy drive) be hooked up to an H8? Or was that strictly an H11-only device? Of for that matter, can an H27 be hooked up to a non-heath Micro PDP11? Thanks for any advice! Jay West From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 19:30:11 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:30:11 +1200 Subject: Heathkit H27 In-Reply-To: <001001c6d213$e3ab1710$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001001c6d213$e3ab1710$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 9/7/06, Jay West wrote: > Can the H27 (dual 8" floppy drive) be hooked up to an H8? Or was that > strictly an H11-only device? Dunno about the H8. > Of for that matter, can an H27 be hooked up to a non-heath Micro PDP11? My recollection of debugging some H27 issues a couple of years back is that there's a boot prom on the Qbus card for the H27. If that's the case, then as long as it isn't stomping on a bootstrap ROM somewhere else on the bus, then you should have no problems. Heath's card should be register-level compatible with either the RXV11 or the RXV21 (can't remember which one right now). My H-11 came with a KDF-11, DEC memory, pretty much DEC everything; just the Heath backplane and PSU and floppy controller. The previous owner never booted from floppy, though; he hacked the case and added an off-to-the-side CD-interconnect and used an RLV11. It took a bit of work to get it all back together. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 19:32:43 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:32:43 +1200 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 9/7/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/7/2006 at 1:33 AM Joost van de Griek wrote: > > >No, but we should be! DAMN those are stylish! > > I think a lot of old TV programs used the MICR characters such as seen on > bank checks. (or cheques). The C-itoh 101 line of VT-100-compatible terminals had the MICR font built into ROM - you issued a (documented) control sequence and switched the font. We had a lot of those back in the day (they were lots cheaper than a DEC VT-102), so it was fun to hack the control sequence into folks' LOGIN.COM files on VMS. ;-) -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 6 20:28:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 18:28:28 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060906190627.0b4a2250@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060906190627.0b4a2250@localhost> Message-ID: <200609061828280350.1FBE163C@10.0.0.252> On 9/6/2006 at 7:10 PM Tom Peters wrote: >Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police > From slashdot.org article >http://slashdot.org/articles/06/09/05/2028258.shtml Well, there you go--if want to run a crime ring, do it on a Victor 9000. They'll never figure it out. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 6 20:28:04 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 20:28:04 -0500 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060906202135.0b6d25e0@mail> At 06:51 PM 9/6/2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I think a lot of old TV programs used the MICR characters such as seen on >bank checks. (or cheques). I used to have a typewriter (Olivetti) with the >OCR-A font on it--a memo typed in it looked just plain crude. I think >that the OCR-B font available for daisywheel printers is one of the better >fixed-spacing fonts. Did MICR only include 0-9 and the control characters? We're not talking OCR-A and OCR-B, right? Were the stylish fonts seen in the "Search" opening credits ever actually used by computers, or were they a graphic designer's riff on MICR, extending it to alphabetic characters, too? - John On Wednesday 06 September 2006 09:54 am, Mike Loewen wrote: > Back in February, someone mentioned the odd looking tape hardware used > in the TV show "Search" from 1972: > > http://www.probecontrol.com/ > > Someone guessed that these were "memory tape loop" units. I found the > same units in Woody Allen's "Sleeper": > > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Tapeloop.jpg > > Can anyone identify these, positively? Were they really data storage > units, or audio units? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 6 21:13:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 19:13:15 -0700 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060906202135.0b6d25e0@mail> References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> <6.2.3.4.2.20060906202135.0b6d25e0@mail> Message-ID: <200609061913150178.1FE71521@10.0.0.252> On 9/6/2006 at 8:28 PM John Foust wrote: >Did MICR only include 0-9 and the control characters? Yep-- 0 through 9 and 5 special characters. But old TV programs such as "Probe" gave alpha titles an MICR look also. I don't know if there's a proper name for that contrived font. >Were the stylish fonts seen in the "Search" opening credits ever >actually used by computers, or were they a graphic designer's >riff on MICR, extending it to alphabetic characters, too? Pure Hollywood, as far as I can tell. Cheers, Chuck From Steve at oceanrobots.net Wed Sep 6 21:17:30 2006 From: Steve at oceanrobots.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 22:17:30 -0400 Subject: Transformer question (only slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <20060906005919.IQLN19825.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <0J53008POIM4J1D1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Sep 4, 6 09:26:08 pm <20060906005919.IQLN19825.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <44FF813A.30506@oceanrobots.net> Perhaps the "ceramic capacitor" was a MOV? jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: >>>Wall warts, least here in USA must be fused internally or have a thermal >>>interupter (usually the blow open). I've forcably opened a number of >>>warts to replace protective devices. >>> >>> >>I've opened up many wall warts over here and found the the transformer >>primary winge goes straigh to the tags on the transformer (no obvious >>connections to a fuse or thermal fuse) and those tags are wired straight >>to the mains plug pins. And yes, said wall wards have various approvals >>written on them. >> >>I was told that the transfromer primary is supposed to fuse safely in the >>event of a fault. My experience is that it doesn't (I've had shorts on >>the output side cause the plastic case to deform and much magic smoke to >>come out, but the transformer primary was still continuos after I turned >>the power off. I did not feel like seeing if it would ever fail). >> >> > > > >>-tony >> >> >> > >Actually, fire came close for mine. :O > >I had DSL modem's big ceramic capacitor short out across the 16V AC >input and fry the wall wart transformer. Cut it open, interior all >smelly and softened, primary winding opened where wires attached to >blades. Exterior is mint. > >Fixed this with a junk VCR gutted except for transformer with a fuse >& new ceramic capacitor in DSL modem. Been this way for 3 years. > >Cheers, Wizard > > From cannings at earthlink.net Wed Sep 6 21:30:26 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 19:30:26 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Mostek MK5002 4-digitcounter/display driver? References: Message-ID: <001301c6d225$944ee860$6401a8c0@hal9000> Ethan, The datasheet at your link gives me an error. Did it work okay for you ? Attached is a "clean" PDF with no errors. ( Actually I sent it to you offline ). Best regards, Steven Canning Subject: Re: Anyone have a datasheet for a Mostek MK5002 4-digitcounter/display driver? > On 9/5/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I have a couple of ancient modules on the shelf here - they are the > > size of an old 3.5 digit DVM module with 4 MAN71 7-segment displays... > > My mistake... 4 x MAN72A seven-segment plus 1 MAN73A "+1" display... > so 0000 to 10000... > > > I have figured out that the main chip is a Mostek MK5002 > > counter/display driver, but I can't find any data sheets on Google... > > Finally found it... > http://www.datasheetarchive.com/datasheet.php?article=3789216 > > > I'm guessing that it might have been used in some sort of > > pinball or arcade machine because of some of the hits I've > > gotten, but I'd just like to be able to reverse-engineer the > > pinout of the edge connector on this module. > > For the record, the module is an NLS 39-324 - it has the 4.5 digits > on the front, the MK5002N, three 4049 hex inverters, and a fist-full > of discretes. I'm thinking it's either a DVM module or a counter > module. > > -ethan From Gary at realtimecomp.com Wed Sep 6 21:36:06 2006 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 19:36:06 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H27 In-Reply-To: <000101c6d214$da84c130$0402a8c0@RealTime.local> Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A69705A158@server1.RealTime.local> Hey! Finally a question I can answer! > Can the H27 (dual 8" floppy drive) be hooked up to an H8? Or was that > strictly an H11-only device? No, the H-27 was strictly for the H-11. I believe it has a built-in controller (Z-80 based, if I remember correctly) inside the H-27 unit itself. The controller card for the H-11 (or PDP) was a glorified parallel interface. > > Of for that matter, can an H27 be hooked up to a non-heath Micro PDP11? > You could always by-pass the built-in controller in the H-27 box, and just interface to the bare drives. Gary From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 22:02:50 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 15:02:50 +1200 Subject: Heathkit H27 In-Reply-To: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A69705A158@server1.RealTime.local> References: <000101c6d214$da84c130$0402a8c0@RealTime.local> <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A69705A158@server1.RealTime.local> Message-ID: On 9/7/06, Gary L. Messick wrote: > > Of for that matter, can an H27 be hooked up to a non-heath Micro > PDP11? > > > You could always by-pass the built-in controller in the H-27 box, and > just interface to the bare drives. Yes, the bare drives are standard 50-pin 8" drives, a-la TM-848s or similar, but DEC never made a controller for 8" floppies that talked to a naked drive. I do have a 3rd-party Qbus controller from a Dataram-branded box that does, though. I'm still pretty sure that the H-27 Qbus controller card is software-compatible with one of the DEC Qbus floppy controllers. The electrical interface, though, is specific to the H27. -ethan From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Sep 6 22:33:38 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:33:38 -0400 Subject: Wilmington, Delaware USA Vintage Swap Meet - Oct 7th 2006 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060906233047.0219c870@mail.degnanco.net> Only one month away! 2800 square feet of hard-to-find "classic" computers (pre-internet age), gaming, test equipment, parts and supplies, software, electronics, manuals, and more! DATE: October 7 WHERE: 504 Market Street 2nd floor / Copeland Room Wilmington, Delaware 19801 EVENT STARTS: 10AM EVENT ENDS: 4PM Details: http://marchclub.org/swapmeet.cfm http://marchclub.org/swapmeet_listing.cfm From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 22:41:04 2006 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:41:04 -0700 Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d6501090609041634u2ad56d65q3c6c7d90bdf16999@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090609062041x587783ddy2bd60bd0b284a15b@mail.gmail.com> The system has been spoken for thank you all Chris On 9/4/06, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > Hello > I have for sale a hp9830 calculator/computer system wich includes the > hp9830A with some extras from infotek(not sure what), a infotek fd-30 mass > memory unit, a hp9862A calc plotter, a hp9866A thermal printer, a hp9869A > card reader, all the cables, extra paper for the printer box of extra cards > for the reader some cassette tapes for the 9830 hp sys test cassette a hp > math pac vol 1 cassette ) all the io hookups 4 the printer plotter card > reader and the infotek mass memory unit. plus the following manuals sys > test instruction manual dated may 8th 1975, quick ref tp 9830Abasic july 1 > 1975, plotter control rom manual, printer manual, hp9830A 11272Bextended > i/o rom manual, plotter pac, 11274B string variables Rom manual, > 11270B matrix operations rom manual, 11278Bbatch basic rom manual, math pac > manual, 11279B Advanced programming I rom manual, 11289B Advanced > programming II rom manual, 11202A I/O interface Instalationb and service > manual. If anybody wants any of this let me know if not clamed in a couple > weeks its going to E-bay pictures will be up soon > Chris Halarewich > From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Sep 6 22:37:08 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 22:37:08 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police In-Reply-To: <200609061828280350.1FBE163C@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060906190627.0b4a2250@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20060906190627.0b4a2250@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060906223600.00bd2be0@localhost> At 06:28 PM 9/6/2006 -0700, you wrote: >On 9/6/2006 at 7:10 PM Tom Peters wrote: > > >Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police > > From slashdot.org article > >http://slashdot.org/articles/06/09/05/2028258.shtml > >Well, there you go--if want to run a crime ring, do it on a Victor 9000. >They'll never figure it out. Yikes! I used to work in an office equipment store that sold those critters. Nice going. Dredged up all kinds of barely suppressed memories. [Commentary] "I doubt you can find a group that has never been killed in large numbers." --Peter Seebach, alt.folklore.computers" System Administrators. And it is a real shame, BTW." --Marat Fayzullin, alt.folklore.computers --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Sep 6 22:47:48 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 22:47:48 -0500 Subject: SGI -> Mips/Irix EOP'd Message-ID: <5fd90f3c95cc42a8b48cc6395ac135a4@valleyimplants.com> Joost wrote >They're a storage company now, IIRC. SGI's going to be adding some machines that are unlikely to be ontopic for many years yet in partenership with BOXX. Not a complete repeat of the VW series, these run Linux. Whee. Here's hoping they get enough back on their feet to get something interesting out again. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 23:21:44 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 16:21:44 +1200 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Mostek MK5002 4-digitcounter/display driver? In-Reply-To: <001301c6d225$944ee860$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <001301c6d225$944ee860$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: On 9/7/06, Steven Canning wrote: > Ethan, > > The datasheet at your link gives me an error. Did it work okay for you ? Yes. I just checked it again and it was fine. You end up with a bogus filename (Acrobat6_required.pdf or something like that) and an annoying coverpage, but the data is all there. > Attached is a "clean" PDF with no errors. ( Actually I sent it to you > offline ). Thanks for that. > > On 9/5/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I have a couple of ancient modules on the shelf here... > > > an NLS 39-324 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 7 00:19:08 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 22:19:08 -0700 Subject: Probe/Search TV props References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> <6.2.3.4.2.20060906202135.0b6d25e0@mail> <200609061913150178.1FE71521@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FFABC1.445F70FF@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 9/6/2006 at 8:28 PM John Foust wrote: > > >Did MICR only include 0-9 and the control characters? > > Yep-- 0 through 9 and 5 special characters. But old TV programs such as > "Probe" gave alpha titles an MICR look also. I don't know if there's a > proper name for that contrived font. > > >Were the stylish fonts seen in the "Search" opening credits ever > >actually used by computers, or were they a graphic designer's > >riff on MICR, extending it to alphabetic characters, too? > > Pure Hollywood, as far as I can tell. > > Cheers, > Chuck When I was 9 years old MICR fonts said 'the future is computers'. Everything to do with the space-age/computers/future used MICR-alpha in marketing. I think the title of Byte magazine was (is?) the last holdout (1984 is the most recent issue I have). (There was an article in Annals of the History of Computing a few years ago about the development of automated cheque processing and MICR (late 50s)). On the topic of future prognostications becoming out-dated, a little while ago I saw a 370 front panel and the first thing that came to mind was "Oh, how 2001-ish" - the association being common design themes (to my perceptions) between the front panel and stuff in the movie '2001: A Space Oddysey'. Today they both say "1970". Who is it that has that sig "The future was never like this" ?. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 7 01:10:04 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 23:10:04 -0700 Subject: "reset" C64? Message-ID: Is there an equivalent to CTRL-ALT-Delete on the C64 so you don't have to turn it on and off every time you want to run a new program? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 7 01:17:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:17:39 -0700 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <44FFABC1.445F70FF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> <6.2.3.4.2.20060906202135.0b6d25e0@mail> <200609061913150178.1FE71521@10.0.0.252> <44FFABC1.445F70FF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200609062317390588.20C6D63F@10.0.0.252> On 9/6/2006 at 10:19 PM Brent Hilpert wrote: >On the topic of future prognostications becoming out-dated, a little while >ago I saw a 370 front panel and the first thing that came to mind was >"Oh, how 2001-ish" - the association being common design themes (to my >perceptions) between the front panel and stuff in the movie '2001: A Space >Oddysey'. Today they both say "1970". Hmmm, wasn't 2001 sometime around 1968-69? I like "The Forbin Project" myself. Lots of old IBM 1620/1710 panels and blinkenlights behind CDC 3000-series "green glass" cabinet fronts. For you IBM-ers: Everyone calls IBM "Big Blue" but I definitely remember S/360 hardware also coming in orange. Was that a standard option? Cheers, Chuck From josefcub at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 01:27:04 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 01:27:04 -0500 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920609062327wd853741i22e5b515680eb05d@mail.gmail.com> On 9/7/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there an equivalent to CTRL-ALT-Delete on the C64 so you don't > have to turn it on and off every time you want to run a new program? > > Zane > RUN/STOP-Restore is what you're looking for, but with many programs it doesn't work due to their hijacking of the metal from the ROM. Wow, a question I could answer. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From awootton at uniserve.com Wed Sep 6 09:45:44 2006 From: awootton at uniserve.com (Allen Wootton) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 07:45:44 -0700 Subject: Fujitsu disk drive info ? Message-ID: Dear Sir: A friend gave me an old Fujitsu Denso B14L-0300-0018A power supply from which some of the parts have been removed but that still contains the power transformer and some other pieces. I would like to use what I can from the power supply to make a regulated power supply for an amateur radio transceiver. I have been looking on the internet for information regarding the Fujitsu power supply and yesterday I found your request for information. Were you able to find any information regarding the schematic for the power supply? If so, I would really appreciate it if you would let me know the source or pass on the information you obtained. It seems to be quite hard to find. Yours sincerely, Allen Wootton From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 6 19:49:24 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 20:49:24 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H27 Message-ID: <0J57002PP6874NWA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Heathkit H27 > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 12:30:11 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/7/06, Jay West wrote: >> Can the H27 (dual 8" floppy drive) be hooked up to an H8? Or was that >> strictly an H11-only device? > >Dunno about the H8. > >> Of for that matter, can an H27 be hooked up to a non-heath Micro PDP11? Yes, if you have the heath interface card as well. If memory serves the standard RT-11 DX.sys was compatable. > >My recollection of debugging some H27 issues a couple of years back is >that there's a boot prom on the Qbus card for the H27. If that's the >case, then as long as it isn't stomping on a bootstrap ROM somewhere >else on the bus, then you should have no problems. Heath's card should >be register-level compatible with either the RXV11 or the RXV21 (can't >remember which one right now). The prom on card can be disabled. It worked well with 11/2 and KDF-11A cpus. The card is RXV-11 compatable. The big upside with the H27 is it would format 8" (RX01) disks. The downside is the drives, the spindle clamp was plastic and would dryout and crack. >My H-11 came with a KDF-11, DEC memory, pretty much DEC >everything; just the Heath backplane and PSU and floppy controller. >The previous owner never booted from floppy, though; he hacked the >case and added an off-to-the-side CD-interconnect and used an RLV11. Thats a ugly hack. Many were upgraded to 11/23 cpu, Q18 ram and some times DLV11j for more IO with fewer boards. >It took a bit of work to get it all back together. I'll bet. Test the PS well, the LVSMPS was not every reliable. Allison From pdp11owner at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 23:24:56 2006 From: pdp11owner at gmail.com (b m) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 22:24:56 -0600 Subject: Alpha Station LX300 Message-ID: I am trying to get an Alpha Station LX300 to run OpenVMS. When I power the machine up, it appears to be using the AlphaBIOS and it wishes to use Windows NT. Is it possible to update the BIOS to use SRM so that I can install OpenVMS, or is this machine doomed to run WindowsNT? Thanks for any information you can supply. --barrym From dan at partnershipaccounting.com Wed Sep 6 23:32:11 2006 From: dan at partnershipaccounting.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 23:32:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: F/S HP 9830A system In-Reply-To: <6d6501090609062041x587783ddy2bd60bd0b284a15b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200609070432.k874WBHT025367@sun.marcal.com> Hi Chris, If you don't mind my asking, what was your selling price? Regards, Dan > The system has been spoken for thank you all > > Chris > > > > On 9/4/06, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > Hello > > I have for sale a hp9830 calculator/computer system wich includes the > > hp9830A with some extras from infotek(not sure what), a infotek fd-30 mass > > memory unit, a hp9862A calc plotter, a hp9866A thermal printer, a hp9869A > > card reader, all the cables, extra paper for the printer box of extra cards > > for the reader some cassette tapes for the 9830 hp sys test cassette a hp > > math pac vol 1 cassette ) all the io hookups 4 the printer plotter card > > reader and the infotek mass memory unit. plus the following manuals sys > > test instruction manual dated may 8th 1975, quick ref tp 9830Abasic july 1 > > 1975, plotter control rom manual, printer manual, hp9830A 11272Bextended > > i/o rom manual, plotter pac, 11274B string variables Rom manual, > > 11270B matrix operations rom manual, 11278Bbatch basic rom manual, math pac > > manual, 11279B Advanced programming I rom manual, 11289B Advanced > > programming II rom manual, 11202A I/O interface Instalationb and service > > manual. If anybody wants any of this let me know if not clamed in a couple > > weeks its going to E-bay pictures will be up soon > > Chris Halarewich > > > From gklinger at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 01:53:33 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 02:53:33 -0400 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <9e2403920609062327wd853741i22e5b515680eb05d@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920609062327wd853741i22e5b515680eb05d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Run/Stop + Restore will break a BASIC program but it is not the equivalant of a three fingered salute as it does not reset the hardware. After you've issued a break and regained input control to the BASIC interpreter you can initiate a soft reset by typing "SYS 64738" (without the quotes) and pressing RETURN. If you're just trying to clear a BASIC program from memory you could type "NEW" and hit RETURN. If you're running a machine langauge program (read most commercial software) then you're probably out of luck. There is no way to do a hard reset on a stock 64 other than cycling the power although there are ways to add a reset button and some utility cartridges have reset buttons. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Sep 7 02:31:05 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 02:31:05 -0500 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know at least on the 128 model there was a way you could drop into an assembly monitor and reset that way. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Golan Klinger Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 1:54 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Re: "reset" C64? Run/Stop + Restore will break a BASIC program but it is not the equivalant of a three fingered salute as it does not reset the hardware. After you've issued a break and regained input control to the BASIC interpreter you can initiate a soft reset by typing "SYS 64738" (without the quotes) and pressing RETURN. If you're just trying to clear a BASIC program from memory you could type "NEW" and hit RETURN. If you're running a machine langauge program (read most commercial software) then you're probably out of luck. There is no way to do a hard reset on a stock 64 other than cycling the power although there are ways to add a reset button and some utility cartridges have reset buttons. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Sep 7 02:49:17 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:49:17 -0700 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! In-Reply-To: <0J5600FC3AT7U78I@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5600FC3AT7U78I@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44FFCEFD.4020904@mindspring.com> Allison wrote: > If you understand TTL and specifically TTL FFs then this is both > logical and sane. > > Most NON-BUFFERED (74x74, 74x174, 74x175) D-FFs the output is fed back > to the opposites input so any overload or transient to ground or Vcc > (not safe for device) at the output will affect the devices state. > > Obviously if either output is "forced" to a state the other will follow > inverted. The caveat is if either input cannot change due to internal > failure or external logic failure the state will not change but you > may see pulses when it tries to change. > > Pulling to ground is is safe as the output current (top transistor) > is limited where the lower transistor can conduct hard. > > Unorthodox looking but, completely legit. You would get the same effect > using a pair of (two from) inverters (7404 for example) cross coupling > them and putting a switch across the outputs to debounce the switch. > Bottom line is it worked for 30+ years and something else is broken. > > Now one of the things I've seen with older TTL is inputs that are stuck > (likely ESD or other on die failure) to either Vcc or Ground. This could > be either the '174 or the gate/inverter they drive is failed this way. I've seen the logic diagrams for 74x74, 74x109, 74x112, etc and for these it is clear (assuming the logic diagram is what the designers really implemented) that the 'outputs' are really bidirectional, assuming you want to override the internal FF output with a stronger external driver. None of the databooks I have ever seen actually show the gate level logic for the internals of the 74x175 or 74x174; they are only black box diagrams. So it is not clear to me that the outputs are unbuffered/bidirectional. They certainly seem to be for Signetics (see below) but my lab tests cannot verify this for any other mfg. I have pulled totem-pole outputs forcibly high or low before, but have always used an external series current-limiting resistor to limit the override current to a 'safe' value. >> I've replaced the top 74S175 device (originally a Signetics 74S175 >> date code 1970) with a socket, and have tried other 74x175 parts >> but none work at all (NAT 74LS175 1983, TI 74AS175 1986, SIG 74S175 >> 1984, TI 74175 1974). Even on the bench in a proto board I can't >> get any of these devices to behave like the original. Yanking the >> QB~ output to hard ground does not force the Q output high. So >> was DEC relying on the aberrant behavior of a 1970 Signetics 74S175? > > No, I've done this with TI, Signetics, National and others. Well, I am seeing something very different here. I built a breadboard with the circuit under question: 74x175 device, 470ohm to +5V on MR~, CLK and Dx inputs forced to ground. I connected voltmeters to the Q and Q~ outputs, and then tried forcing Q and Q~ alternately to ground to see if I could change the state of the device. I had a number of devices to test, here are the results: DATE MFG DEVICE CODE RESULT --- ------ ---- --------- TI 74175 87 FAIL, shorting Q~ to gnd never changes Q to high SGS 74LS175 82 ditto TI 74AS175 87 ditto SIG 74S175 84 PASS, with 470ohm pullup to +5V on Q req'd for Q0-Q3 SIG 74S175 76 PASS, Q1-Q3 work w/ no resistor, Q0 requires 470ohm For the failed devices, I tried with no pullup, and 100, 470, 1K, 4.7K pullups to +5V on Qx. No value of pullup made any difference. Shorting a Q~ signal (at ~4V) to ground never changed Q (at ~0.4V) to a HIGH. The only two devices to exhibit the 'correct' behavior were the Signetics 74S175s. The original 1976 datecode device (I removed intact from the PDP-8m; it is actually GOOD as it turns out), and a later 1984 datecode device. >> I'm about ready to rip out the two bogus '175s and replace them with >> some other logic (three '00s if I calculate correctly). >> >> Anybody have any other ideas on what to look for or at? > > Check the down stream logic for stuck inputs. When I repaired my 8f > (1973 manufacture date) I had several gates with the inputs stuck > (the driving gate was ok) where the input was hard high or hard low > at the pin and it was the gate itself not driving logic at fault. > A milliampmeter confirmed one gate (7400) with pin 1 hard to VCC > (Iol was >100ma). Drove me nuts as the first part replaced was > a 7474 driving that gate with no fix! > > I'd give the 7404 the hairy eyeball! A quick test is socket a '175 > with the Q and /Q output pins floating and using a jumper to ground > make it flip [It WILL NOT IF MR/ is asserted, you can bend out the > MR/ pin to avoid that.]. Then test the '04 for input changes output. > > > Allison The 7404 on the output seems OK, as is the rest of the downstream logic (the priority encoder). I measured the input currents required on a suspect '04 input to set the output high and low and they are well within spec (about +20uA for input high, -0.7mA for input low). With the 74S175 out of its socket I could set all the 7404 inputs H/L and observe the downstream priority encoder outputs were just as expected. I have about 15 of the 1984 Signetics 74S175s, I tried all of them in the console board socket; none of them worked, even a little bit, with no pullups added. So I added 470ohm pullups to +5V on the 74S175 Q outputs to 7404 inputs. Everything started working as would be expected. The switch decode logic is now 100% functional. My thought is that the output pullups on the 74S175 Q pins are trying to pull those outputs high fairly strongly (10mA load) but the Q output can still drive a valid low (it is a 20mA schottky driver). This pullup 'preloads' the output, so that a kick on the QB~ (by shorting to gnd) gets the Q output moving high, the resistor keeps it moving high, able to override some smaller internal driver trying to keep the output low. At least that is the only rational explanation I can think of right now. Just the 7404 by itself is a -1mA low, +40uA high load; not very much. In any event, the fix is simple (three resistors really, but I'll add one on each of the six used outputs). Turns out all the original logic chips appear to be good (I had removed the original 74S175 intact for testing). Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and helpful hints. Don From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 7 02:50:36 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:50:36 -0700 Subject: Probe/Search TV props References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> <6.2.3.4.2.20060906202135.0b6d25e0@mail> <200609061913150178.1FE71521@10.0.0.252> <44FFABC1.445F70FF@cs.ubc.ca> <200609062317390588.20C6D63F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44FFCF3E.C058CFB4@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 9/6/2006 at 10:19 PM Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >On the topic of future prognostications becoming out-dated, a little while > >ago I saw a 370 front panel and the first thing that came to mind was > >"Oh, how 2001-ish" - the association being common design themes (to my > >perceptions) between the front panel and stuff in the movie '2001: A Space > >Oddysey'. Today they both say "1970". > > Hmmm, wasn't 2001 sometime around 1968-69? Yes, 2001 was 1968, I recall seeing it in 1969 ... I was just referring to the design era, so figure +/- a couple of years covers it. > >Oddysey ^ (whoops, sp, correcting myself) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Sep 7 03:24:20 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 10:24:20 +0200 Subject: Alpha Station LX300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060907102420.763e7b74@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 22:24:56 -0600 "b m" wrote: > Is it possible to update the BIOS to use SRM so that I can install > OpenVMS, or is this machine doomed to run WindowsNT? AFAIK the LX300 is a WindowsNT only machine, no SRM, no VMS, no OSF/1, no *BSD. I think it can run Linux too. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From alanp at snowmoose.com Thu Sep 7 04:02:28 2006 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 02:02:28 -0700 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf S400 diskpack, info request In-Reply-To: <200609061532.k86FWBOg010710@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609061532.k86FWBOg010710@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44FFE024.207@snowmoose.com> > > >I need information about a disk unit Siemens-Nixdorf S400. >> To what level of detail do you need? > > >> The early S400 series were rebadged RCA Spectra 70's >> It is probably similar to either IBM 2311 or 2314. > > I do not see how this could be the case since Siemens-Nixdorf did not exist until Siemens bought Nixdorf in 1990. From what I have been able to tell, the SNI S400 was a big iron number cruncher from the '90s. alan Contractor at SNI Neuperlach, 1991-92 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Sep 7 04:21:50 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 10:21:50 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 In-Reply-To: <200609070716.k877GWoB021453@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609070716.k877GWoB021453@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7DDE887A-D0DB-47C4-865F-70076765CE18@microspot.co.uk> On 7 Sep, 2006, at 08:16, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > TEN YEARS AGO, a typical home > computer system might have > been a box with an Intel > processor inside running a > Microsoft operating system. > And there were a few Macs. > > Today, a typical home computer > system might be a box with an > Intel processor inside running > a Microsoft operating system. > And there are a few Macs. But now the Macs have Intel processors in them too. Any chance of arranging an event (but obviously smaller) in the UK? Anyone want to come and see my 1962 ICT 1301 mainframe? Maybe not quite as nice as the recent tape drive picture, but what do think of my Ampex TM4s : http://web.onetel.com/~rodritab/mtani.htm Roger Holmes. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Sep 7 05:32:33 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:32:33 +0200 Subject: Alpha Station LX300 In-Reply-To: <20060907102420.763e7b74@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <20060907102420.763e7b74@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <20060907103233.GB14477@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2006-09-07 10:24:20 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 22:24:56 -0600 > "b m" wrote: > > Is it possible to update the BIOS to use SRM so that I can install > > OpenVMS, or is this machine doomed to run WindowsNT? > AFAIK the LX300 is a WindowsNT only machine, no SRM, no VMS, no OSF/1, > no *BSD. I think it can run Linux too. Even if there's no SRM, it should be possible to boot Linux by first booting MILO. From there, you can boot the Linux kernel. (MILO is some hacked Linux kernel to be bootable from the AlphaBIOS stuff. It was based on some old kernel version, hacked by SuSE employees, but AFAIK, this stuff was never ever really forward-ported, and ISTR that not everything was open-sourced and/or freely available due to unknown reasons. So this is definitively something to keep an eye on!) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: ...und wenn Du denkst, es geht nicht mehr, the second : kommt irgendwo ein Lichtlein her. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 7 06:12:24 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 06:12:24 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police In-Reply-To: <200609061828280350.1FBE163C@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060906190627.0b4a2250@localhost> <200609061828280350.1FBE163C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060907061124.05ba1798@mail> At 08:28 PM 9/6/2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Well, there you go--if want to run a crime ring, do it on a Victor 9000. >They'll never figure it out. More like, if you don't want to spend the money to have some obscure data recovered, give it to a criminal who's about to be busted. - John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 7 06:18:35 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 07:18:35 -0400 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! Message-ID: <0J5700F0GZCNUJWM@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! > From: Don North > Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:49:17 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > >None of the databooks I have ever seen actually show the gate level logic >for the internals of the 74x175 or 74x174; they are only black box diagrams. >So it is not clear to me that the outputs are unbuffered/bidirectional. >They certainly seem to be for Signetics (see below) but my lab tests cannot >verify this for any other mfg. I have old databooks sets that go to the gate and some cases transistor level. >I have pulled totem-pole outputs forcibly high or low before, but >have always used an external series current-limiting resistor to limit >the override current to a 'safe' value. For pullup a current limit is advised, for pull down it's not needed as the pull up device is current limited already. >Well, I am seeing something very different here. I built a breadboard >with the circuit under question: 74x175 device, 470ohm to +5V on MR~, >CLK and Dx inputs forced to ground. I connected voltmeters to the >Q and Q~ outputs, and then tried forcing Q and Q~ alternately to ground >to see if I could change the state of the device. > >I had a number of devices to test, here are the results: > > DATE > MFG DEVICE CODE RESULT > --- ------ ---- --------- > TI 74175 87 FAIL, shorting Q~ to gnd never changes Q to high > SGS 74LS175 82 ditto > TI 74AS175 87 ditto > SIG 74S175 84 PASS, with 470ohm pullup to +5V on Q req'd for Q0-Q3 > SIG 74S175 76 PASS, Q1-Q3 work w/ no resistor, Q0 requires 470ohm > >For the failed devices, I tried with no pullup, and 100, 470, 1K, 4.7K >pullups to +5V on Qx. No value of pullup made any difference. Shorting >a Q~ signal (at ~4V) to ground never changed Q (at ~0.4V) to a HIGH. It the MR/ is not in the correct state (may need pullup) I'd conclude you have some bad parts. Especially the TI[I have the most data on those]! >> I'd give the 7404 the hairy eyeball! A quick test is socket a '175 >> with the Q and /Q output pins floating and using a jumper to ground >> make it flip [It WILL NOT IF MR/ is asserted, you can bend out the >> MR/ pin to avoid that.]. Then test the '04 for input changes output. >> >> >> Allison > >The 7404 on the output seems OK, as is the rest of the downstream logic >(the priority encoder). I measured the input currents required on a >suspect '04 input to set the output high and low and they are well within >spec (about +20uA for input high, -0.7mA for input low). With the 74S175 >out of its socket I could set all the 7404 inputs H/L and observe the >downstream priority encoder outputs were just as expected. That's good. >I have about 15 of the 1984 Signetics 74S175s, I tried all of them in >the console board socket; none of them worked, even a little bit, with >no pullups added. I'd pulse them slow with Q/ connected to D and see if they toggle. I suspect you have a bad run of old chips. I just tossed a few tubes of mid 80s NOS parts as they apprently died of silicon rust [moisture gets into the plastc and they die]. >So I added 470ohm pullups to +5V on the 74S175 Q outputs to 7404 inputs. >Everything started working as would be expected. The switch decode logic >is now 100% functional. You have something really messed up with those 175s your testing. >My thought is that the output pullups on the 74S175 Q pins are trying to >pull those outputs high fairly strongly (10mA load) but the Q output can >still drive a valid low (it is a 20mA schottky driver). This pullup >'preloads' the output, so that a kick on the QB~ (by shorting to gnd) >gets the Q output moving high, the resistor keeps it moving high, able to >override some smaller internal driver trying to keep the output low. >At least that is the only rational explanation I can think of right now. Sounds like you have some '175s with the upper device fried in the totem pole outputs. >Just the 7404 by itself is a -1mA low, +40uA high load; not very much. Unless it has an input with high leakage to Vcc or ground, i've seen both. >In any event, the fix is simple (three resistors really, but I'll add one >on each of the six used outputs). Turns out all the original logic chips >appear to be good (I had removed the original 74S175 intact for testing). > >Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and helpful hints. Put all the parts on a header and plug it in rather than mess the board up. Allison From pjchsmit at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 07:29:02 2006 From: pjchsmit at gmail.com (Peter Smit) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 14:29:02 +0200 Subject: DecServer 700 - WWENG2.SYS image Message-ID: <7fd4aa550609070529k619823cfs6a072604943933de@mail.gmail.com> Hello, While browsing the classiccmp archives I found an email from Fred van Kempen about the boot images for DECserver 700-16 terminal servers (wweng1.sys wweng2.sys) and this email address in it. I'm not sure if I'm going the right way here, so please excuse me if I'm wrong. I just got my hands on DECserver 700-16 but I don't have the boot image and I was hoping you could maybe forward me a copy of the image! Thanks a lot!! Best regards, Peter Smit From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 7 07:46:35 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 05:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: from Julian Wolfe at "Sep 7, 6 02:31:05 am" Message-ID: <200609071246.k87CkaZD015248@floodgap.com> > I know at least on the 128 model there was a way you could drop into an > assembly monitor and reset that way. Well, the 128 has a dedicated reset button on the side, for one thing. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My dark soul burns with fiery agreement. Or possibly tacos. -- 8-bit #508 -- From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Sep 7 07:47:41 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <9e2403920609062327wd853741i22e5b515680eb05d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060907124741.566945810D@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Josef Chessor > > On 9/7/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Is there an equivalent to CTRL-ALT-Delete on the C64 so you don't > > have to turn it on and off every time you want to run a new program? > > > > Zane > > > > RUN/STOP-Restore is what you're looking for, but with many programs it > doesn't work due to their hijacking of the metal from the ROM. > Don't forget that you can't just hit the RESTORE key like you are typing but you have to quickly smack it... IIRC there is a capacitor wired in there that gives it this behaviour. Cheers, Bryan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 7 08:13:00 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:13:00 -0400 Subject: DecServer 700 - WWENG2.SYS image In-Reply-To: <7fd4aa550609070529k619823cfs6a072604943933de@mail.gmail.com> References: <7fd4aa550609070529k619823cfs6a072604943933de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <178aa24c5586d7dd88528d64bf72bd6c@neurotica.com> On Sep 7, 2006, at 8:29 AM, Peter Smit wrote: > While browsing the classiccmp archives I found an email from Fred van > Kempen > about the boot images for DECserver 700-16 terminal servers (wweng1.sys > wweng2.sys) and this email address in it. > > I'm not sure if I'm going the right way here, so please excuse me if > I'm > wrong. > > I just got my hands on DECserver 700-16 but I don't have the boot > image and > I was hoping you could maybe forward me a copy of the image! http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wweng2.sys -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 08:37:00 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:37:00 -0400 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <200609062317390588.20C6D63F@10.0.0.252> References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> <6.2.3.4.2.20060906202135.0b6d25e0@mail> <200609061913150178.1FE71521@10.0.0.252> <44FFABC1.445F70FF@cs.ubc.ca> <200609062317390588.20C6D63F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > For you IBM-ers: Everyone calls IBM "Big Blue" but I definitely remember > S/360 hardware also coming in orange. Was that a standard option? Standard colors were blue, red (orangey), white, grey, and yellow. Other colors could be RPQd. If a customer did not spec the color, blue was the most common result. Sometimes installations with multiple processors would color code the equipment. -- Will From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 7 09:29:46 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 07:29:46 -0700 Subject: OT: list weirdness (was Re: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed!) References: <0J5700F0GZCNUJWM@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > >Subject: Re: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! > > From: Don North > > Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:49:17 -0700 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org I've been following the 8m console topic with interest, but I never seem to receive Don North's side of the conversation. I've checked email spam folders and whatnot, but there's no trace of it anywhere I can find. (Except the list archives, of course.) Anyone know what's going on? Vince From alberto at a2sistemi.it Thu Sep 7 09:37:56 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 16:37:56 +0200 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf S400 diskpack, info request In-Reply-To: <44FFE024.207@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > I do not see how this could be the case since Siemens-Nixdorf did not > exist until Siemens bought Nixdorf in 1990. > > From what I have been able to tell, the SNI S400 was a big iron number > cruncher from the '90s. Alan, can you help me ? You have any document about this unit? Thanks Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 7 10:02:55 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:02:55 -0700 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <200609071246.k87CkaZD015248@floodgap.com> References: <200609071246.k87CkaZD015248@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 5:46 AM -0700 9/7/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I know at least on the 128 model there was a way you could drop into an >> assembly monitor and reset that way. > >Well, the 128 has a dedicated reset button on the side, for one thing. OK, maybe I do have a reason to get the C128 out of storage! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 7 10:03:50 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:03:50 -0700 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: References: <9e2403920609062327wd853741i22e5b515680eb05d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:53 AM -0400 9/7/06, Golan Klinger wrote: >commercial software) then you're probably out of luck. There is no way >to do a hard reset on a stock 64 other than cycling the power although >there are ways to add a reset button and some utility cartridges have >reset buttons. Any idea which utility cartridges have a reset button? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 7 10:11:14 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:11:14 -0700 Subject: OT: list weirdness (was Re: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed!) In-Reply-To: References: <0J5700F0GZCNUJWM@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: At 7:29 AM -0700 9/7/06, vrs wrote: >I've been following the 8m console topic with interest, but I never seem to >receive Don North's side of the conversation. I've checked email spam >folders >and whatnot, but there's no trace of it anywhere I can find. (Except the >list >archives, of course.) > >Anyone know what's going on? No, but I noticed a similar problem over the weekend, I didn't have time to look into it, I thought my ISP's anti-spam filters might be to blame. Though that seems *highly* unlikely, and I just checked and don't see any sign of that being the case. In the thread you're talking about I received to messages that were from Don North. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Sep 7 10:22:23 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 10:22:23 -0500 Subject: Commodore C64 confuses Austrian police (OT) Message-ID: <229037a0034343d39b74939eddc4e04a@valleyimplants.com> John opined >More like, if you don't want to spend the money to have some >obscure data recovered, give it to a criminal who's about to be busted. So the US people should watch out - law enforcement will just grep the list for the equipment they want, and threaten prosecution under the copyright or terrorism laws "unless you want to cooperate". From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Sep 7 10:47:39 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 17:47:39 +0200 Subject: Siemens-Nixdorf S400 diskpack, info request In-Reply-To: <44FFE024.207@snowmoose.com> References: <200609061532.k86FWBOg010710@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45005B3B.4176.7D0E7E24@localhost> Am 7 Sep 2006 2:02 meinte Alan Perry: > > > > > >> I need information about a disk unit Siemens-Nixdorf S400. > >> To what level of detail do you need? > >> The early S400 series were rebadged RCA Spectra 70's > >> It is probably similar to either IBM 2311 or 2314. Not wrong, but definitly the wrong era. > I do not see how this could be the case since Siemens-Nixdorf did not > exist until Siemens bought Nixdorf in 1990. *G* > From what I have been able to tell, the SNI S400 was a big iron number > cruncher from the '90s. Way better trace - just, I'm not shure if it fits. Al's remark points to the 4004 Series, where the first models where OEM versions of RCA /360alikes, especialy the models 15/25/45 - until RCA folded up their IBM compatible department, and Siemens had to decide what to do. After having invested a huge lump of money to marketing the machines, they did go ahead and startet with two clones (model 16/46) where the most notable difference was that all measurements changed to metric. That became the orgin of 30 years as manufacturer for IBM compatible machines. Now, the S400, Alan is mentioning was a classic vector CPU, and originaly a Fujitsu development. Mybe that'S something you're searching for. The S400 mid to upper end model of the Fujitsu VPP2000 family and was sold under the same number as Fujitsu VPP S400. THe models differed in speed and number of vector units - IIRC, the S400 had one scalar and two vector CPUs, with something arround 500 MFLOP for the scalar part and 5 GFLOP for the Vector side. Then again, the 8870 mentioned in Albetos original question is a small multi user system for office tasks. Introduced in the mid 70s, the concept was way similar to MAI and Wang systems at the same time. Foundation was a Business Basic and an ERP software written in that Basic, called COMET. You could see it almost as the 70s and 80s version of SAP - with a similar market domination. Including all the weired 'customisation' - since it was interpreted Basic, everybody added functionality. The 8870/COMET combination was the main cash cow of Nixdorf Computers (beside two other, similar families) - this strong focus was also part of the problems in the late 80s, when comparable applications became available for cheap of shelf PCs. COMET as a package is BTW still arround. So having a disk pack labeled S400 on a 8870 is a puzzeling combination :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Sep 7 11:20:12 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 09:20:12 -0700 Subject: Alpha Station LX300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450046BC.3060104@msm.umr.edu> b m wrote: > I am trying to get an Alpha Station LX300 to run OpenVMS. When I > power the > machine up, it appears to be using the AlphaBIOS and it wishes to use > Windows NT. > Most of the packages I have with vms, or with dec unix came with a firmware update cd that would switch it to either mode. contact me if you cant get one. Jim From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Sep 7 12:21:03 2006 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 10:21:03 -0700 Subject: For Sale: DEC Vaxstation 4000 60 Message-ID: <3afee7520609071021i4e0b063fl32393203dc052f55@mail.gmail.com> Please see http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=3696 for more details and pictures. Included are: DEC VS46K Vaxstation 4000 60 DEC RZSX Storage Expansion DEC RZ55 Hard Drives DEC TK50Z Tape Drive DEC TLZ04 Tape Drive DEC RRD40 CD Drive Plus a big monitor and DEC keyboard along with SW tapes and CDs and enough cables to get the whole thing going. Everything was working when I played with it three years ago just before it all went into storage. It's all boxed now in two large/heavy boxes - the monitor isn't yet boxed. I'd really prefer local pickup since I can't guarantee that FedEx/UPS won't hose the system in transit but I'm willing to repack it if need be into more smaller boxes and I can also just bring it to a pack and ship place at the buyers convenience. I can exclude the monitor from the shipment to save on costs, but you're still talking about a heavy load. Anyway, I'm looking to get $100 or so plus shipping for the system which I think is a fair price but I will donate to an appropriate museum or non-profit. Please let me know if you're interested. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 7 12:44:39 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:44:39 -0700 Subject: Siemens computer series Message-ID: > Then again, the 8870 mentioned in Albetos original question is > a small multi user system for office tasks. Is there a document that describes the various Siemens Siemens/Nixdorf computer families, with release dates? The late IBM-compatibles have some documentation, but there isn't anything I see on the web that gives the progression from the 4004 forwards, or the Siemens 16-bit process control systems from the 70s. -- It would be a lot easier to identify the pack if there was a picture, or at least a description of size, #platters, etc. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Sep 7 13:03:13 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 20:03:13 +0200 Subject: Siemens computer series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45007B01.2922.7D8A9B27@localhost> Am 7 Sep 2006 10:44 meinte Al Kossow: > > > Then again, the 8870 mentioned in Albetos original question is > > a small multi user system for office tasks. > Is there a document that describes the various Siemens Siemens/Nixdorf > computer families, with release dates? Not that I know of. Hans Pufals list offers some hints, just it does not cover all machines. > The late IBM-compatibles have some documentation, but there isn't anything I > see on the web that gives the progression from the 4004 forwards, or the > Siemens 16-bit process control systems from the 70s. There are still to many people in the management that have fought one or the other battle in this history as that the company could come up with a unified view of just, lets say the /370ish mainframes, not to speek about all the other stuff. I mean, Siemens has been active in literaly _any_ area of computing you may think of. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Sep 7 13:28:15 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 11:28:15 -0700 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! In-Reply-To: <0J5700F0GZCNUJWM@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5700F0GZCNUJWM@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <450064BF.5020403@mindspring.com> Allison wrote: > Don North wrote: > >> Well, I am seeing something very different here. I built a breadboard >> with the circuit under question: 74x175 device, 470ohm to +5V on MR~, >> CLK and Dx inputs forced to ground. I connected voltmeters to the >> Q and Q~ outputs, and then tried forcing Q and Q~ alternately to ground >> to see if I could change the state of the device. >> >> I had a number of devices to test, here are the results: >> >> DATE >> MFG DEVICE CODE RESULT >> --- ------ ---- --------- >> TI 74175 87 FAIL, shorting Q~ to gnd never changes Q to high >> SGS 74LS175 82 ditto >> TI 74AS175 87 ditto >> SIG 74S175 84 PASS, with 470ohm pullup to +5V on Q req'd for Q0-Q3 >> SIG 74S175 76 PASS, Q1-Q3 work w/ no resistor, Q0 requires 470ohm >> >> For the failed devices, I tried with no pullup, and 100, 470, 1K, 4.7K >> pullups to +5V on Qx. No value of pullup made any difference. Shorting >> a Q~ signal (at ~4V) to ground never changed Q (at ~0.4V) to a HIGH. > > It the MR/ is not in the correct state (may need pullup) I'd conclude > you have some bad parts. Especially the TI[I have the most data on those]! > I had a 470ohm pullup to +5V on MR~ for all the tests, so there was no issue WRT inadvertent or floating MR~ forcing the Q output low. Prior to using all the '175 parts I ran them thru my PROM programmer / IC tester to validate they are good. All the 74x175s I used tested 'good' at both 4.5V and 5.5V VCC. I even added additional tests (repeated pattern sequences) to the tune of about 25 sequential vectors total. All the functions (clocking, clearing, holding data) tested out OK on all the parts I used. I only found one bad part (an old TI 74175 dc 87; one Q output seemed to be floating). > >>> I'd give the 7404 the hairy eyeball! A quick test is socket a '175 >>> with the Q and /Q output pins floating and using a jumper to ground >>> make it flip [It WILL NOT IF MR/ is asserted, you can bend out the >>> MR/ pin to avoid that.]. Then test the '04 for input changes output. >>> >>> >>> Allison >> The 7404 on the output seems OK, as is the rest of the downstream logic >> (the priority encoder). I measured the input currents required on a >> suspect '04 input to set the output high and low and they are well within >> spec (about +20uA for input high, -0.7mA for input low). With the 74S175 >> out of its socket I could set all the 7404 inputs H/L and observe the >> downstream priority encoder outputs were just as expected. > > That's good. > >> I have about 15 of the 1984 Signetics 74S175s, I tried all of them in >> the console board socket; none of them worked, even a little bit, with >> no pullups added. > > I'd pulse them slow with Q/ connected to D and see if they toggle. > I suspect you have a bad run of old chips. I just tossed a few tubes > of mid 80s NOS parts as they apprently died of silicon rust [moisture gets > into the plastc and they die]. > >> So I added 470ohm pullups to +5V on the 74S175 Q outputs to 7404 inputs. >> Everything started working as would be expected. The switch decode logic >> is now 100% functional. > > You have something really messed up with those 175s your testing. If I had only tested a few devices, maybe I would agree. But in total I tested 12 TI 74175 and 15 SIG 74S175. Each device behaved consistently. I could never get a TI '175 to pass (meaning yanking a high Q~ to gnd forced Q high); and I could only get the SIG 'S175 to pass with a pullup to +5V on Q. The 'best' S175 I found would work with a 2.2K pullup. To get them all to work reliably I had to go down to 470ohm pullup (~10mA current). I also find it somewhat suspicious in that the BOM for the PDP-8f/m LED console panel calls out a plain 74175 device for these parts (rev F board etch). However in the three panels which I have, they are all BUILT with SIG 74S175 devices of various date codes in 75 and 76. None of these parts looks to have been previously reworked (or else someone did a real nice job; hard to tell sometimes). I find it somewhat fishy the BOM and the board have different parts; DEC was usually a little more reliable than this. > >> My thought is that the output pullups on the 74S175 Q pins are trying to >> pull those outputs high fairly strongly (10mA load) but the Q output can >> still drive a valid low (it is a 20mA schottky driver). This pullup >> 'preloads' the output, so that a kick on the QB~ (by shorting to gnd) >> gets the Q output moving high, the resistor keeps it moving high, able to >> override some smaller internal driver trying to keep the output low. >> At least that is the only rational explanation I can think of right now. > > Sounds like you have some '175s with the upper device fried in the totem > pole outputs. > But like I said earlier all the devices pass OK on the IC tester. >> Just the 7404 by itself is a -1mA low, +40uA high load; not very much. > > Unless it has an input with high leakage to Vcc or ground, i've seen both. To be clearer, the numbers I quoted just above are not databook numbers but ACTUAL numbers I measured in circuit on the 7404 in my board (I have access to all the inputs since I socketed both 74175 parts). I used a small diode (1N4148) in series with my multimeter to measure input high/low currents. > > >> In any event, the fix is simple (three resistors really, but I'll add one >> on each of the six used outputs). Turns out all the original logic chips >> appear to be good (I had removed the original 74S175 intact for testing). >> >> Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and helpful hints. > > Put all the parts on a header and plug it in rather than mess the board up. I plan to do that, just replacing the two S175 positions with sockets, and I'll dead bug the resistors over the top of the S175s. That way, someday when I come across some of these 'magic' 74x175s :-) that work without pullups I can replace them easily. > > > Allison > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Thu Sep 7 13:33:20 2006 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 19:33:20 +0100 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <200609062317390588.20C6D63F@10.0.0.252> References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> <6.2.3.4.2.20060906202135.0b6d25e0@mail> <200609061913150178.1FE71521@10.0.0.252> <44FFABC1.445F70FF@cs.ubc.ca> <200609062317390588.20C6D63F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1157654000.10273.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Wed, 2006-09-06 at 23:17 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For you IBM-ers: Everyone calls IBM "Big Blue" but I definitely remember > S/360 hardware also coming in orange. Was that a standard option? Blue, Red and Yellow were the standard colours, I believe. http://www.aconit.org/spip/IMG/jpg/36040.jpg http://static.cray-cyber.org/Comprooms/LARGE/IBM_360.jpg http://www.newbegin.com/html/misc__item_detail_65.html (Though the latter implies you could have any colour you like ...) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Sep 7 14:02:58 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 15:02:58 -0400 Subject: Fujitsu disk drive info ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45006CE2.1000701@splab.cas.neu.edu> The B14L-0300-0018A power supply is otherwise known as the M228X/M2294K power supply. I have the manual on the power supply, including the schematic. Does anybody know if this is on bitsavers? If so, can somebody more familiar with the site than I point him on how to retrieve it? Otherwise, I'll scan the schematic only. Joe Heck Allen Wootton wrote: > Dear Sir: > > A friend gave me an old Fujitsu Denso B14L-0300-0018A power supply from > which some of the parts have been removed but that still contains the power > transformer and some other pieces. I would like to use what I can from the > power supply to make a regulated power supply for an amateur radio > transceiver. > > I have been looking on the internet for information regarding the Fujitsu > power supply and yesterday I found your request for information. Were you > able to find any information regarding the schematic for the power supply? > If so, I would really appreciate it if you would let me know the source or > pass on the information you obtained. It seems to be quite hard to find. > > Yours sincerely, > > Allen Wootton > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 7 14:10:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 12:10:48 -0700 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <1157654000.10273.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> <6.2.3.4.2.20060906202135.0b6d25e0@mail> <200609061913150178.1FE71521@10.0.0.252> <44FFABC1.445F70FF@cs.ubc.ca> <200609062317390588.20C6D63F@10.0.0.252> <1157654000.10273.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <200609071210480026.238AAEF9@10.0.0.252> On 9/7/2006 at 7:33 PM Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: >Blue, Red and Yellow were the standard colours, I believe. >http://www.aconit.org/spip/IMG/jpg/36040.jpg >http://static.cray-cyber.org/Comprooms/LARGE/IBM_360.jpg >http://www.newbegin.com/html/misc__item_detail_65.html >(Though the latter implies you could have any colour you like ...) The only S/360 color other than blue that I've ever seen up close was orange (or red, or whatever you want to call it)in the 1960's--and for a time, I saw so much orange, I thought that it was the standard color and blue was special-order. I thought it looked very "mod". Just the thing to go along with your avocado fridge and burnt orange shag carpeting. On the other hand, the yellow and bilious green shown in the ad looks downright revolting...and I've never heard of a purple S/360! I suppose that if the S/360 were being marketed today, it'd be offered in white or brushed stainless steel. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 7 15:01:59 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 7, 6 08:03:50 am" Message-ID: <200609072001.k87K1x08010856@floodgap.com> > > commercial software) then you're probably out of luck. There is no way > > to do a hard reset on a stock 64 other than cycling the power although > > there are ways to add a reset button and some utility cartridges have > > reset buttons. > > Any idea which utility cartridges have a reset button? The most notable in NTSC-land are the Super Snapshot and Final Cartridge. Action Replay should also have one, I think. Alas, the Epyx FastLoad does not. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The fact that it works is immaterial. -- L. Ogborn ------------------------- From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Sep 7 15:06:34 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:06:34 -0700 Subject: 13W3 adapters Message-ID: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> Hi, I need to make a 13W3 "extension cord" -- M-F *not* the M-M (or F-F, depending on how you look at it!) cables that Sun offered. I salvaged a sufficiently long video cable off of a Sun monitor -- so that gives me *one* end (and, one *sex*). The *other* sex is a bit more elusive (i.e. the gender that is present *on* the actual CPU). But, I found a 13W3<->3BNC adapter in one of my goodie boxes. The 13W3 connector is "just right" (sex, form factor, mounting, etc.). So, the issue (and hence the question!) is: what sort of device might *want* this adapter (i.e. why should I *keep* it and not just salvage parts from it)? Note that the BNC pigtails are only a few inches long so I assume this would be attached to a 3BNC monitor and a "regular" Sun cable used to tether that to the CPU. Thanks! --don From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 7 15:21:00 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060907202100.43271.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Any idea which utility cartridges have a reset > button? At a place where I used to work in the late 80s, many people used to do just that (there was a thriving C64 "underground" down at the calibration lab. Muahahahaha). I don't remember the details, never hacked into my 64c and did it, but it was a relatively simple affair as I recall. A momentary push button switch, a hole drilled in the back. Something pulled to ground I suppose. Sorry, that's all I remember :( There's bound to be some Commie forums somewhere in Netland where you could find help with that. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu Sep 7 15:24:26 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 14:24:26 -0600 Subject: Epilog: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: References: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <44F5CC2A.5090700@rogerwilco.org> <44F5DFD0.1090504@gmail.com> <44F62B28.6040504@mdrconsult.com> <44F6450E.9070708@rogerwilco.org> <44F72F7B.1090907@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <45007FFA.8040408@rogerwilco.org> Just thought I would close this thread with a report of my success getting these uVAXen MFM drives imaged. Thanks to much good advice for list members, I have successfully imaged all drives. I don't have VMS to do a VMS netboot (sorry Allison :) ), so I ended up netbooting NetBSD from a Debian box via MOP/BOOTP/NFS onto each uVAX. Once I had NetBSD installation kernel alive, I configured the network IP and did an NFS mount back to the Debian box. After that, it was a simple matter to 'dd' the uVAX's drive to a file on the Debian, and from there to a CD for long term storage. As it turns out, all four of these vaxen had extremely minimal ULTRIX setups loaded, not VMS, which is a shame. I was hoping for a VMS setup to play with. Well, I'm in the process of getting my OpenVMS licenses, so all is not lost. Thanks everyone for their suggestions, and patiently "reminding" me that MFM drive formats aren't portable. Jared From jplist at kiwigeek.com Thu Sep 7 15:43:20 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 15:43:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <200609072001.k87K1x08010856@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > commercial software) then you're probably out of luck. There is no way > > > to do a hard reset on a stock 64 other than cycling the power although > > > there are ways to add a reset button and some utility cartridges have > > > reset buttons. > > > > Any idea which utility cartridges have a reset button? > > The most notable in NTSC-land are the Super Snapshot and Final Cartridge. > Action Replay should also have one, I think. > > Alas, the Epyx FastLoad does not. As documented below, /RESET on the USER port shorted to GND will cause a hardware reset. http://hardwarebook.net/connector/cartridge/userioc64.html On early C64s you can also use the serial (disk drive) port to reset the machine. Later C64s have a buffer there and it no longer works. /RESET to GND again: http://hardwarebook.net/connector/serial/serialioc64.html Many C64ers have momentary switches mounted to their cases and wired to the backs of the USER port header for this purpose. JP From fryers at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 16:29:00 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:29:00 +0100 Subject: 13W3 adapters In-Reply-To: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> References: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: All, On 9/7/06, Don wrote: > I need to make a 13W3 "extension cord" -- M-F *not* the > M-M (or F-F, depending on how you look at it!) cables that > Sun offered. What are you trying to connect with the cable? Place a monitor further away or some unusual equipment setup? > I salvaged a sufficiently long video cable off of a > Sun monitor -- so that gives me *one* end > (and, one *sex*). The *other* sex is a bit more elusive > (i.e. the gender that is present *on* the actual CPU). Depending on where you are these connectors are still available. AFAIK RS Components and quite possibly Farnell stock them as well. > But, I found a 13W3<->3BNC adapter in one of my > goodie boxes. The 13W3 connector is "just right" (sex, > form factor, mounting, etc.). > > So, the issue (and hence the question!) is: what sort of > device might *want* this adapter (i.e. why should I *keep* > it and not just salvage parts from it)? Note that the > BNC pigtails are only a few inches long so I assume this > would be attached to a 3BNC monitor and a "regular" Sun > cable used to tether that to the CPU. It does look like a magic adapter to allow Sun workstations and others to use a RGB sync on green momitor. Have a look at the BNC connectors - one should be marked blue, one green and the other red. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From james.rice at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 16:33:27 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 16:33:27 -0500 Subject: 13W3 adapters In-Reply-To: References: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: > > > > > But, I found a 13W3<->3BNC adapter in one of my > > goodie boxes. The 13W3 connector is "just right" (sex, > > form factor, mounting, etc.). > > > > So, the issue (and hence the question!) is: what sort of > > device might *want* this adapter (i.e. why should I *keep* > > it and not just salvage parts from it)? Note that the > > BNC pigtails are only a few inches long so I assume this > > would be attached to a 3BNC monitor and a "regular" Sun > > cable used to tether that to the CPU. > > It does look like a magic adapter to allow Sun workstations and others > to use a RGB sync on green momitor. Have a look at the BNC connectors > - one should be marked blue, one green and the other red. > > The adapter he found could be a NeXT 13w3 to 3 BNC. They were supplied with the first series of NeXT N4005 Hitachi 21" monitors which had three BNC connections. Later N4005's had a 13w3 connection. James -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From fryers at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 16:39:31 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:39:31 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 In-Reply-To: <7DDE887A-D0DB-47C4-865F-70076765CE18@microspot.co.uk> References: <200609070716.k877GWoB021453@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7DDE887A-D0DB-47C4-865F-70076765CE18@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: All, On 9/7/06, Roger Holmes wrote: [...] > Any chance of arranging an event (but obviously smaller) in the UK? I think a few people from the UK contingent on this list *should* be able to organise something. > Anyone want to come and see my 1962 ICT 1301 mainframe? Yes. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 7 17:03:21 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 17:03:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 Message-ID: <200609072203.k87M3LZW070951@keith.ezwind.net> --- Simon Fryer wrote: > All, > > On 9/7/06, Roger Holmes > wrote: > > [...] > > > Any chance of arranging an event (but obviously > smaller) in the UK? > > I think a few people from the UK contingent on thi s > list *should* be > able to organise something. > > > Anyone want to come and see my 1962 ICT 1301 > mainframe? > > Yes. > > Simon > There are UK events, such as Big Bash 4, but I don't know what sort of retro computers they are aimed at having never been to it. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 7 16:50:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:50:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Problems with a DEC RL-01 drive on a PDP-8/A In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 7, 6 12:06:00 pm Message-ID: > > > > http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/staff/mcsele/pdp8a.html) is > > functioning properly but 'hangs' when the bootstrap is exectured for the > > RL-01 drive (the FAULT light blinking briefly then extinguishing). The > > RL-01 disks were last booted about 10 years ago and were supposedly > > bootable then (presumably with OS/8). > > You didn't say anything in your message or on your web page about > the READY light. Is it lit when you mount the pack? If it's lit, does it > blink when you step through the bootstrap? My first worry is that the fualt light blinks during the bootstrap. I don't think it should. > > It's a really fundamental thing, but since it seems that you recently > acquired the system, did you lock the heads before transporting it? > (small metal square with one screw on the corner that blocks the > heads from sliding out during transport) If someone else locked them, > did you _unlock_ them? If you moved the drive with the heads > unlocked, that could be your problem. If there was a pack in the > drive at the time, that _really_ could be your problem. My experience of RL01's and RL02's suggests that there is considerable friction in the positioner mechanism (unlike, say, an RK05), so it's not _essential_ to lock the positioner for transport. On the other hand, it does no harm to do so, and might save the heads. > > Something else to check is the cable. I have a PDP-8/a w/RL8A. > I recall that the controller-end of the cable is somewhat fragile > (for those that don't have one to look at, it's not like an RL11; > it's a bare Berg connector with 40-ish wires coming out of a round > RL cable in a twisted fan - more like the cables I've seen for an > RLV12). I know on at least one occasion, I had to repair one of > the outer conductors of my RL8A cable because the wire popped > out of the crimp-on pin in the Berg connector. I beleive all the cables are electrically identical. Certainly the RL8 type of thing is used on an ELV11 in the MINC system. The main reason there are different cables is the physical problem of getting the cable round the inside of the system box -- with osme machines it's easier to use a ribbon cable, with others it's easier to use a cylindrical cable. Anothre thought is that there's a PLL circuit in the controller used as part of the data separator (or at least there is in the RL11 and RLV11 controllers). Maybe something in that has drifted over the years, and it's no longer locking. Or maybe some chip has just failed. How I'd handle this (given my hardware background) is to remove the access cover on the drive, put a (scratch) pack in and spin up. Check the ready light comes on and the heads load. Then write little programs on the PDP8 to read out the status registers etc. See if you can read the drive status, and see if it's reasonable. Try moving the heads to different cylinders (and actually watch the positioner to make sure it's doing the right things). Then try reading a sector. If you get an error, work out exactly what the error bits are telling you. TRen dive in with the 'scope and logic analyser to see what is settign those erorr bits, and work backwards until you find out why. -tony From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Sep 7 17:37:28 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 15:37:28 -0700 Subject: 13W3 adapters In-Reply-To: References: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <45009F28.4050308@dakotacom.net> Simon Fryer wrote: > All, > > On 9/7/06, Don wrote: > >> I need to make a 13W3 "extension cord" -- M-F *not* the >> M-M (or F-F, depending on how you look at it!) cables that >> Sun offered. > > What are you trying to connect with the cable? Place a monitor further > away or some unusual equipment setup? Just a means of saving me the trouble of dragging a 75 pound monitor across the room in the event that I need to put a head on a machine "temporarily". I'm not concerned about loss of signal quality, etc. -- just convenience. >> I salvaged a sufficiently long video cable off of a >> Sun monitor -- so that gives me *one* end >> (and, one *sex*). The *other* sex is a bit more elusive >> (i.e. the gender that is present *on* the actual CPU). > > Depending on where you are these connectors are still available. AFAIK > RS Components and quite possibly Farnell stock them as well. Sure. But that means placing an order and waiting. Cannabilizing this existing "adapter" will have it done long before then. :> >> But, I found a 13W3<->3BNC adapter in one of my >> goodie boxes. The 13W3 connector is "just right" (sex, >> form factor, mounting, etc.). >> >> So, the issue (and hence the question!) is: what sort of >> device might *want* this adapter (i.e. why should I *keep* >> it and not just salvage parts from it)? Note that the >> BNC pigtails are only a few inches long so I assume this >> would be attached to a 3BNC monitor and a "regular" Sun >> cable used to tether that to the CPU. > > It does look like a magic adapter to allow Sun workstations and others > to use a RGB sync on green momitor. Have a look at the BNC connectors > - one should be marked blue, one green and the other red. D'uh... yes. But that doesn't tell me why I should *value* it (vs. stripping it for parts) :> Since I already have 13W3 <-> [35]BNC *cables*, I don't see much value in this little adapter... From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Sep 7 17:38:33 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 15:38:33 -0700 Subject: 13W3 adapters In-Reply-To: References: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <45009F69.8080800@dakotacom.net> James Rice wrote: >> > But, I found a 13W3<->3BNC adapter in one of my >> > goodie boxes. The 13W3 connector is "just right" (sex, >> > form factor, mounting, etc.). >> > >> > So, the issue (and hence the question!) is: what sort of >> > device might *want* this adapter (i.e. why should I *keep* >> > it and not just salvage parts from it)? Note that the >> > BNC pigtails are only a few inches long so I assume this >> > would be attached to a 3BNC monitor and a "regular" Sun >> > cable used to tether that to the CPU. >> >> It does look like a magic adapter to allow Sun workstations and others >> to use a RGB sync on green momitor. Have a look at the BNC connectors >> - one should be marked blue, one green and the other red. >> >> > The adapter he found could be a NeXT 13w3 to 3 BNC. They were supplied > with > the first series of NeXT N4005 Hitachi 21" monitors which had three BNC > connections. Later N4005's had a 13w3 connection. Ah. Since I have no NeXT boxes :< I'll assume the adapter is worth more to me for it's *components* than as a whole assembly. Thanks! --don From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 7 17:47:59 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 18:47:59 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 In-Reply-To: <7DDE887A-D0DB-47C4-865F-70076765CE18@microspot.co.uk> References: <200609070716.k877GWoB021453@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7DDE887A-D0DB-47C4-865F-70076765CE18@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <200609071847.59176.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 07 September 2006 05:21 am, Roger Holmes wrote: > Maybe not quite as nice as the recent tape drive picture, but what do > think of my Ampex TM4s : > > http://web.onetel.com/~rodritab/mtani.htm Cool! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Sep 7 17:51:29 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 23:51:29 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 In-Reply-To: <7DDE887A-D0DB-47C4-865F-70076765CE18@microspot.co.uk> References: <200609070716.k877GWoB021453@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7DDE887A-D0DB-47C4-865F-70076765CE18@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4500A271.6020906@gifford.co.uk> Roger Holmes wrote: > Any chance of arranging an event (but obviously smaller) in the UK? I'd definately be interested in a VCF UK! > Anyone want to come and see my 1962 ICT 1301 mainframe? Whereabouts are you? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 18:02:22 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:02:22 +1200 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <9e2403920609062327wd853741i22e5b515680eb05d@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920609062327wd853741i22e5b515680eb05d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/06, Josef Chessor wrote: > On 9/7/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Is there an equivalent to CTRL-ALT-Delete on the C64 so you don't > > have to turn it on and off every time you want to run a new program? > > RUN/STOP-Restore is what you're looking for, but with many programs it > doesn't work due to their hijacking of the metal from the ROM. Other people have pointed out the /RESET line on the User Port; I thought I'd just point out that the RESTORE key goes right to the /NMI line. The normal trap handler checks the keyboard for RUN/STOP and resets BASIC (if it can). That's why it's important to press RUN/STOP, _then_ tap RESTORE. If you try to hit both at once, you might get the timing off just enough that you initiate the interrupt barely before you've pressed RUN/STOP, in which case, the NMI routine will do nothing. In any case, commercial software routinely routed the NMI vector to a do-nothing routine to prevent you from trapping out to BASIC. Rig up a /RESET switch off of the User Port (look up the User Port pinout in your C= Programmer's Reference Manual to get the correct pin). -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Sep 7 19:47:34 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 01:47:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 In-Reply-To: "Simon Fryer" "Re: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0" (Sep 7, 22:39) References: <200609070716.k877GWoB021453@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7DDE887A-D0DB-47C4-865F-70076765CE18@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <10609080147.ZM6765@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Sep 7 2006, 22:39, Simon Fryer wrote: > On 9/7/06, Roger Holmes wrote: > > [...] > > > Any chance of arranging an event (but obviously smaller) in the UK? > > I think a few people from the UK contingent on this list *should* be > able to organise something. I'd be willing to help. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 7 19:56:18 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 17:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 08, 2006 11:02:22 AM Message-ID: <200609080056.k880uI4a021996@onyx.spiritone.com> > On 9/7/06, Josef Chessor wrote: > > On 9/7/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Is there an equivalent to CTRL-ALT-Delete on the C64 so you don't > > > have to turn it on and off every time you want to run a new program? > > > > RUN/STOP-Restore is what you're looking for, but with many programs it > > doesn't work due to their hijacking of the metal from the ROM. > > Other people have pointed out the /RESET line on the User Port; I thought > I'd just point out that the RESTORE key goes right to the /NMI line. The > normal trap handler checks the keyboard for RUN/STOP and resets BASIC > (if it can). That's why it's important to press RUN/STOP, _then_ tap > RESTORE. If you try to hit both at once, you might get the timing off > just enough that you initiate the interrupt barely before you've pressed > RUN/STOP, in which case, the NMI routine will do nothing. > > In any case, commercial software routinely routed the NMI vector to > a do-nothing routine to prevent you from trapping out to BASIC. Rig > up a /RESET switch off of the User Port (look up the User Port pinout > in your C= Programmer's Reference Manual to get the correct pin). > > -ethan Apparently this hack allows you to do a cold reset by pressing the RESTORE key. http://commodore-gg.hobby.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=454 The idea of taking a soldering iron to one of my C64's appeals to me, I still have the soldering Iron that was purchased to work on my VIC-20 :^) Though I'd use a better one that I now have. Hanging the switch off the User Port is likely to be the easiest, as I might have everything I need to do it at home. At the same time, I see that the "Retro Replay" cart can apparently do a reset, and I've been threatening to get one anyway. With the optional ethernet it looks most tempting :^) Though the "Retro Replay" cart and RR-Net aren't cheap :^( On a related net, I managed to boot the Contiki OS last night, and would love to be able to try the telnet client that comes with it :^) Zane From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Sep 7 20:11:17 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 21:11:17 -0400 Subject: Sun System Giveway Message-ID: <9DE19927-EA58-4B1E-98A7-15B6A896BE3F@colourfull.com> Hi All, I have two Sun systems that I would like to find new homes for, any takers? One is a Sun Enterprise 2 and the other is a Sun Enterprise 450 (this one is pretty good size). These are free to a good home, though any donations of Data General Equipment (always) and as of late, Commodore Vic 20 equipment, is greatly appreciated. The systems are located about 20 minutes North of Detroit, Michigan. Thanks Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From gklinger at gmail.com Fri Sep 8 00:09:58 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 01:09:58 -0400 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <200609072001.k87K1x08010856@floodgap.com> References: <200609072001.k87K1x08010856@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The most notable in NTSC-land are the Super Snapshot and Final Cartridge. > Action Replay should also have one, I think. > > Alas, the Epyx FastLoad does not. The Mach 128 cartridge has a reset button and I found it worked better as a fastloader on my 64 than my Epyx FastLoad did. Of course, it also works on a 128 which makes it a pretty good utility cartridge to have around. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Sep 7 09:51:26 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 15:51:26 +0100 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: References: <200609061651560064.1F65B475@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <450031EE.5090600@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/7/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 9/7/2006 at 1:33 AM Joost van de Griek wrote: >> >> >No, but we should be! DAMN those are stylish! >> >> I think a lot of old TV programs used the MICR characters such as seen on >> bank checks. (or cheques). > > The C-itoh 101 line of VT-100-compatible terminals had the MICR font built > into ROM - you issued a (documented) control sequence and switched the > font. We had a lot of those back in the day (they were lots cheaper than a > DEC VT-102), so it was fun to hack the control sequence into folks' > LOGIN.COM files on VMS. ;-) > http://pdp11.kicks-ass.net Gordonjcp. From vax at purdue.edu Thu Sep 7 14:54:28 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 15:54:28 -0400 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <200609071210480026.238AAEF9@10.0.0.252> References: <1157654000.10273.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200609071210480026.238AAEF9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609071554.28520.vax@purdue.edu> On Thursday 07 September 2006 15:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/7/2006 at 7:33 PM Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > >Blue, Red and Yellow were the standard colours, I believe. > >http://www.aconit.org/spip/IMG/jpg/36040.jpg > >http://static.cray-cyber.org/Comprooms/LARGE/IBM_360.jpg > >http://www.newbegin.com/html/misc__item_detail_65.html > >(Though the latter implies you could have any colour you like ...) > > On the other hand, the yellow and bilious green shown in the ad looks > downright revolting...and I've never heard of a purple S/360! I > suppose that if the S/360 were being marketed today, it'd be offered > in white or brushed stainless steel. More likely, Black with a copper strip going up the front door (like how their zSeries boxes are packaged). As far as I know, they don't offer a color option, though cans of Krylon are cheap compared to the machine itself... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From mcsele at niagarac.on.ca Thu Sep 7 20:36:49 2006 From: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 21:36:49 -0400 Subject: Problems with a DEC RL-01 drive on a PDP-8/A Message-ID: I did some basic diagnostics on the system. First, checked the superficial stuff like the cable. The Berg has a strain relief attached and all wiring looks solid at that end. Also checked the head lock which was indeed in the lower (free) position however I observed the head suring loading and it does indeed retract properly ... when the LOAD key is out the heads retract immediately to the parked (fully retracted) position. When a fault occurs, heads pull back as well. True, the unit was transported without the head lock in place - any ideas on possible misalignments? When the BOOT switch on the limited-function panel (or the BOOT key on the console) is pressed, the FAULT light blinks momentarily, the READY light goes out momentarily, and the disk is restored to the original, ready, state. When the cartridge is loaded, the heads move from the parked state to engage the disk. During the fault the heads pull back to the parked state and are then restored to the disk again. When the bootstrap is stepped, the READY light never does blink (stays lt), nor does the FAULT light! Which leads me to wonder why? Checked the ROMs on the 8317 board - they are labelled '469A2' which I can't seem to track. Bootstrap option switches are set as SW1: 2,4,8 ON, SW2: 1,6 ON so with the older ROMs one would expect a TA8-E device (obviously different or these ROMs). Can I verify the bootstrap code easily? Now, when I do step-through the bootstrap I have loaded (at address 1 - the one on my web page), the address is seen to step through as follows: 1,2,3,27,30 (with AC=0004), 31,33,34,27,4,5,27,30,31,33,35,1 at whch point it repeats in an endless loop. It seems to fail, then, on the read header function (at which point I did the diagnostics I had outlined finding the DCRC error after which I did a get status. I'd be grateful for any further ideas you might have on the subject otherwise it might well be 'get out the scope' time! Thanks .... Mark Professor Mark Csele Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-8 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 8 01:09:27 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 23:09:27 -0700 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: References: <200609072001.k87K1x08010856@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 1:09 AM -0400 9/8/06, Golan Klinger wrote: >Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>The most notable in NTSC-land are the Super Snapshot and Final Cartridge. >>Action Replay should also have one, I think. >> >>Alas, the Epyx FastLoad does not. > >The Mach 128 cartridge has a reset button and I found it worked better >as a fastloader on my 64 than my Epyx FastLoad did. Of course, it also >works on a 128 which makes it a pretty good utility cartridge to have >around. I found another solution that works. I have a Cartridge Expander for the C64, it holds 3 cartridges, and more importantly it has a reset button. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Sep 8 02:04:06 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 08:04:06 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 In-Reply-To: <10609080147.ZM6765@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 8/9/06 01:47, "Pete Turnbull" wrote: > On Sep 7 2006, 22:39, Simon Fryer wrote: >> On 9/7/06, Roger Holmes wrote: >> >> [...] >> >>> Any chance of arranging an event (but obviously smaller) in the UK? >> >> I think a few people from the UK contingent on this list *should* be >> able to organise something. > > I'd be willing to help. Anyone in the UK have experience of setting up a similar idea? I know people on the Sinclair QL mailing list who put up yearly bashes in church halls and the like, but we'd need something a bit bigger :) The Wakefield RISCOS Club put on a yearly event in a sports hall (see http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/WROCC2006/index.php for this year's event) Of course, the perfect venue, history wise, would be H Block at Bletchley Park - the home of the WWII codebreaking Colossus machines and the world's first purpose-built computer building but its availability is still in question..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 8 04:11:07 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:11:07 +0200 Subject: 13W3 adapters In-Reply-To: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> References: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060908111107.0624c3d4@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:06:34 -0700 Don wrote: > The *other* sex is a bit more elusive > (i.e. the gender that is present *on* the actual CPU). Usually I salvage these 13W3 connectors out of broken monitors. There are 10' long 13W3 M-F extension cables from Sun. I got three of them from ebay... I chaind them up to get the video signal from my Octane in the machine room to the desk in my living room. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Sep 8 04:50:17 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 10:50:17 +0100 Subject: 13W3 adapters In-Reply-To: <20060908111107.0624c3d4@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> <20060908111107.0624c3d4@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <26c11a640609080250m31c6dc49n106b474e9489d9a5@mail.gmail.com> On 08/09/06, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:06:34 -0700 > Don wrote: > > > The *other* sex is a bit more elusive > > (i.e. the gender that is present *on* the actual CPU). > Usually I salvage these 13W3 connectors out of broken monitors. > > There are 10' long 13W3 M-F extension cables from Sun. I got three of > them from ebay... I chaind them up to get the video signal from my > Octane in the machine room to the desk in my living room. > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > > > I used a 13w3->vga converter and a job lot of vga extension cables on ebay. I think there where 20 2m cables for ?5 I joined them all together then converted it back at the other end. Not very pretty but it worked. Dan From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Sep 8 07:14:35 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 05:14:35 -0700 Subject: 13W3 adapters In-Reply-To: <20060908111107.0624c3d4@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> <20060908111107.0624c3d4@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <45015EAB.2040100@dakotacom.net> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:06:34 -0700 > Don wrote: > >> The *other* sex is a bit more elusive >> (i.e. the gender that is present *on* the actual CPU). > Usually I salvage these 13W3 connectors out of broken monitors. I had salvaged one off the back of a monitor. But, it had very long "legs" -- not a good fit in a standard connector shell so I discarded it. > There are 10' long 13W3 M-F extension cables from Sun. I got three of > them from ebay... I chaind them up to get the video signal from my > Octane in the machine room to the desk in my living room. I dont know if I'd want to run video down 30 feet of wire :> I'll just be happy not to have to lug monitors around the room! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 8 10:01:18 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 08:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: from Golan Klinger at "Sep 8, 6 01:09:58 am" Message-ID: <200609081501.k88F1IEj010178@floodgap.com> > > Alas, the Epyx FastLoad does not. > > The Mach 128 cartridge has a reset button and I found it worked better > as a fastloader on my 64 than my Epyx FastLoad did. It seems I'm the only person who defends the good old Epyx cartridges ;) While most of the other cartridges usually beat the FastLoad in features and speed, something that I don't contest, I can count the programs that did NOT work with it on one hand (in my experience of using one since 1986), it has an acceptable baseline toolset and they're dirt cheap because they're so common. I picked up a box of 5 for $5 and stuck one in all my SX's and 128s. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's not Camelot, but it's not Cleveland either. -- Boston mayor Kevin White From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Sep 8 10:32:44 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 08:32:44 -0700 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies Message-ID: <45018D1C.90200@msm.umr.edu> These are 5 1/4" form factor floppies, but hold twice the data. I have already searched ebay and google, so I need other suggestions, or someone who can part with some I don't know if regular or "premium" 5 1/4 inch 1.2mb media can be formatted and used with them or not. Thanks. Jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 8 10:46:52 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 08:46:52 -0700 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <200609081501.k88F1IEj010178@floodgap.com> References: <200609081501.k88F1IEj010178@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > > > Alas, the Epyx FastLoad does not. >> >> The Mach 128 cartridge has a reset button and I found it worked better >> as a fastloader on my 64 than my Epyx FastLoad did. > >It seems I'm the only person who defends the good old Epyx cartridges ;) I don't know about that, I'm still using an Epyx Fastload, but then I don't have any others. :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 8 11:17:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 09:17:47 -0700 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <45018D1C.90200@msm.umr.edu> References: <45018D1C.90200@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200609080917470673.02EA1D32@10.0.0.252> On 9/8/2006 at 8:32 AM jim stephens wrote: >These are 5 1/4" form factor floppies, but hold twice the data. I have >already searched ebay and google, so I need other suggestions, or someone who can >part with some Scarcer than hen's teeth, I'm afraid. These went with the Drivetec drives that could be found in the Kaypro Robie. The problem is that these use an embedded servo and blank floppies were formatted by the factory--the user could not format his own. I've never found more than the occasional one here and there, probably because when purchased new, these were sold by the single unit and rather expensive--about $5 each, 1980 prices. The 6.4 MB ones are even scarcer. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 8 06:50:35 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 07:50:35 -0400 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! Message-ID: <0J5900DC6VJ95YI2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! > From: Don North > Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 11:28:15 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > >I also find it somewhat suspicious in that the BOM for the PDP-8f/m LED >console panel calls out a plain 74175 device for these parts (rev F board > etch). However in the three panels which I have, they are all BUILT with > SIG 74S175 devices >of various date codes in 75 and 76. None of these parts looks to have been >previously reworked (or else someone did a real nice job; hard to tell >sometimes). >I find it somewhat fishy the BOM and the board have different parts; DEC was >usually a little more reliable than this. They have been reworked. In the 70s 74S cost enough more I doubt DEC would have used them in a function where speed wasn't reqired. It's entirely possible someone trying to be true to date used "S" parts. Myself I will not put 74S or 74F in with slow 7400 and I'm wary of 74LS in the wrong places as well. I've been bit by those intermixes in the past, especilly when the part was used as a oscillator, oneshot or other variations of normal logic. In DEC the BOM was it and ECOs were required to deviate. >> Put all the parts on a header and plug it in rather than mess the board up. >I plan to do that, just replacing the two S175 positions with sockets, >and I'll >dead bug the resistors over the top of the S175s. That way, someday when >I come across some of these 'magic' 74x175s :-) that work without pullups > I can replace them easily. I find the _need_ for pullups worrying. Despite the IC tester there is something odd going on. It could be the parts pass dynamic but not static parameters. Allison From ccrodie at bellsouth.net Fri Sep 8 07:58:56 2006 From: ccrodie at bellsouth.net (Chris Rodie) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 08:58:56 -0400 Subject: HP emulator Message-ID: <45016910.5090601@bellsouth.net> Can anyone on the list tell me the current status of Jay West's hpemu project? Chris Rodie From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 8 12:01:45 2006 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 10:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <200609080917470673.02EA1D32@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/8/2006 at 8:32 AM jim stephens wrote: > > >These are 5 1/4" form factor floppies, but hold > twice the data. I have > >already searched ebay and google, so I need other > suggestions, or someone > who can > >part with some > > Scarcer than hen's teeth, I'm afraid. These went > with the Drivetec drives > that could be found in the Kaypro Robie. I've seen them used in IBM terminal controllers as microcode floppies. The drives for said terminal controllers are easy to find - I have many. Disks are scarcer. I don't know if the IBM 2.4 meg disk is the same as the ones used by the Kaypro. I also don't know much about how the format works. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 8 12:11:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 10:11:43 -0700 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <200609071554.28520.vax@purdue.edu> References: <1157654000.10273.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200609071210480026.238AAEF9@10.0.0.252> <200609071554.28520.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: <200609081011430396.031B7CBD@10.0.0.252> On 9/7/2006 at 3:54 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: >More likely, Black with a copper strip going up the front door (like how >their zSeries boxes are packaged). As far as I know, they don't offer >a color option, though cans of Krylon are cheap compared to the machine >itself... Since the TV series "Star Trek" premiered 40 years ago today, does anyone notice any similarity between the set used for that and the "orange" S/360 decor? Any other similarities? I think that ST was very notable for its time in that the ship computers didn't use mag tapes or disks--contrast with other contemporary Hollywood fare. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Sep 8 12:15:25 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:15:25 -0500 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <200609081011430396.031B7CBD@10.0.0.252> References: <1157654000.10273.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200609071210480026.238AAEF9@10.0.0.252> <200609071554.28520.vax@purdue.edu> <200609081011430396.031B7CBD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4501A52D.6030801@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think that ST was very notable for its time in that the ship computers > didn't use mag tapes or disks--contrast with other contemporary Hollywood > fare. Well, that may have been for budgetary reasons, not forward thinking. :-) They also weren't consistent: some episodes show cartridges being plugged into the console; others show thin memory-card-like wafers being inserted (dropped completely into, actually, like falling through a slot to the bottom). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 8 12:31:09 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <4501A52D.6030801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060908173109.6F8F958119@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonard > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I think that ST was very notable for its time in that the ship computers > > didn't use mag tapes or disks--contrast with other contemporary Hollywood > > fare. > > Well, that may have been for budgetary reasons, not forward thinking. > :-) They also weren't consistent: some episodes show cartridges being > plugged into the console; others show thin memory-card-like wafers being > inserted (dropped completely into, actually, like falling through a slot > to the bottom). Sounds a little like the storage used on the planet Krypton and in Superman's Fortress of Solitude.. It is lengths of crystal which is probably holographic and now that kind of storage is being worked on. Cheers, Bryan P.S. I just watched Superman: The Movie a few days ago.. :) From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Sep 8 12:37:06 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 10:37:06 -0700 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4501AA42.5020601@msm.umr.edu> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >--- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > >>On 9/8/2006 at 8:32 AM jim stephens wrote: >> >> >> >>>These are 5 1/4" form factor floppies, but hold >>> >>> >>twice the data. I have >> >> >>>already searched ebay and google, so I need other >>> >>> >>suggestions, or someone >>who can >> >> >>>part with some >>> >>> >>Scarcer than hen's teeth, I'm afraid. These went >>with the Drivetec drives >>that could be found in the Kaypro Robie. >> >> > >I've seen them used in IBM terminal controllers as >microcode floppies. The drives for said terminal >controllers are easy to find - I have many. Disks are >scarcer. I don't know if the IBM 2.4 meg disk is the >same as the ones used by the Kaypro. I also don't know >much about how the format works. > >-Ian > > > > I am looking for the Microcode variety. I have a lot of Drivetec media, but I am not certain that is what is needed for the 2.4mb drives. I have not researched anything on the 2.4mb drives or formatting, any links or info on that? I would doubt they had the Drivetec type approach, because these floppy drives appeared before the Drivetec stuff was out. Maybe this was just a different media, head and double the wiggles, rather than the Drivtec approach of embedded servo, and all that rot? They were shooting for 30mb on a floppy, IIRC and had a drive that would sort of do that after Kodak took them over. The 6mb variety was just something they put out to try to survive, but their drives and electronics sucked and doomed them. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 8 12:42:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 10:42:07 -0700 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200609081042070448.033751F2@10.0.0.252> On 9/8/2006 at 10:01 AM Mr Ian Primus wrote: >I've seen them used in IBM terminal controllers as >microcode floppies. The drives for said terminal >controllers are easy to find - I have many. Disks are >scarcer. I don't know if the IBM 2.4 meg disk is the >same as the ones used by the Kaypro. I also don't know >much about how the format works. I think we're talking about two different technologies here. IBM used a drive made by YE data that, while 80 cylinder, packed the data much more densely on each track. The Drivetec variety used dual positioners in connection with a servo track to get 160 cylinders (at 600 RPM). In either case, floppies for them are pretty rare. However, I wonder what would happen if one formatted the IBM variety using a 3.5' 2.88MB-capable PC controller. Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 8 12:52:47 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <200609080056.k880uI4a021996@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060908175247.261D05859C@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > At the same time, I see that the "Retro Replay" cart can apparently do a > reset, and I've been threatening to get one anyway. With the optional > ethernet it looks most tempting :^) Though the "Retro Replay" cart and > RR-Net aren't cheap :^( On a related net, I managed to boot the Contiki OS > last night, and would love to be able to try the telnet client that comes > with it :^) > I have used the Contiki OS with the RR-Net and it works great! Pretty cool to see the web pages it serves up from another computer. Cheers, Bryan P.S. The IDE64 also has a reset switch! :) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 8 13:18:43 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <200609081011430396.031B7CBD@10.0.0.252> References: <1157654000.10273.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200609071210480026.238AAEF9@10.0.0.252> <200609071554.28520.vax@purdue.edu> <200609081011430396.031B7CBD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/7/2006 at 3:54 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >More likely, Black with a copper strip going up the front door (like how > >their zSeries boxes are packaged). As far as I know, they don't offer > >a color option, though cans of Krylon are cheap compared to the machine > >itself... > > Since the TV series "Star Trek" premiered 40 years ago today, does anyone > notice any similarity between the set used for that and the "orange" S/360 > decor? Any other similarities? > > I think that ST was very notable for its time in that the ship computers > didn't use mag tapes or disks--contrast with other contemporary Hollywood > fare. There was mention of "microtapes" now and then, which appeared to be the same size as 3.5" floppies. Also, there was a tape cartridge in Star Trek II. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 8 13:38:37 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <20060908175247.261D05859C@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Sep 08, 2006 01:52:47 PM Message-ID: <200609081838.k88IcbII007300@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have used the Contiki OS with the RR-Net and it works great! Pretty > cool to see the web pages it serves up from another computer. I'm still trying to figure out what can be done with Contiki, I do like that it appears to be better than LUnix. So far I've barely had time to mess with it. > P.S. The IDE64 also has a reset switch! :) I'd not looked up the IDE64 till just now. A couple of questions, for starters, is this something where you have to get a board made, and build it yourself? The same question applies to the add-on boards. Also, is the compact flash readable on a normal computer (in other words can it be used to transfer files). Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 8 14:13:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:13:36 -0700 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <4501AA42.5020601@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <4501AA42.5020601@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200609081213360561.038B13CB@10.0.0.252> On 9/8/2006 at 10:37 AM jim stephens wrote: >I have not researched anything on the 2.4mb drives or formatting, any >links or info on that? I would doubt they had the Drivetec type approach, >because these floppy drives appeared before the Drivetec stuff was out. So, you've got a YD-802-4 drive under all of the IBM skin, right? And you're not using it with an IBM 3174 controller? What other piece of equipment used these? Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 8 14:21:38 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 15:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: <200609081838.k88IcbII007300@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060908192138.057E7585BE@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > I'm still trying to figure out what can be done with Contiki, I do like that > it appears to be better than LUnix. So far I've barely had time to mess > with it. > > > P.S. The IDE64 also has a reset switch! :) > > I'd not looked up the IDE64 till just now. A couple of questions, for > starters, is this something where you have to get a board made, and build it > yourself? The same question applies to the add-on boards. Also, is the > compact flash readable on a normal computer (in other words can it be used > to transfer files). > It comes pre-built... :) Right now V4.0 is supposed to be on the verge of being released so I would wait for that. As for the CF card I don't know as I don't have a CF reader for my PC yet. Cheers, Bryan From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 8 14:40:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 14:40:46 -0500 Subject: HP emulator References: <45016910.5090601@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <015e01c6d37e$b34b89d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Chris wrote.... > Can anyone on the list tell me the current status of Jay West's hpemu > project? Well, sort of. I haven't found enough of the missing parts I need (called "round-tuit's") to finish off the hpemu project ;) It has been in that state for a long time. However, I can assure you it is not dead, someday I will definitely get around to finishing it off. Since I haven't touched it in so long I don't remember the exact state of where I left it. As I recall, there were two things left to finish - the doubleword floating point multiply/divide (FMP/FDV) instructions, and a few more peripheral devices. I just don't get binary floating point math, I have to think way too hard for it. Often much more complex things in the coding I can grasp with ease, but there's something about binary floating point math that joest doesn't click with me. I can do it, but it takes eons. I know there are easy ways to accomplish this, like mapping the HP format to IEEE, doing the operations, then converting back... but you lose the bug-for-bug identical nature of what I've been able to adhere to so far. As a result, I spend lots of time pouring over microcode and diagnostic source to make painfully sure my code produces all possible results identically. The diagnostics are the definitive test, and I can say with pride that HPEMU currently passes all standard HP diagnostics except the unimplemented FMP/FDV stuff. I can even pass the HP power-fail auto-restart test and the memory parity error test. How's THAT for going to extremes to code in exactly identical behaviour? One of the recurring themes in my code is that I do not do things necessarily in the most straightforward way, I go to great lengths to do them the same way the hardware does it. Despite this, parts of the code are exceedingly fast, other parts are rather slow. I think many purists will eventually look at my code and say "this is going WAY too far just for the sake of having the code execute the same way the real hardware does". I realize that, but for me it's a labor of love and a way of learning the machine completely. The biggest thing that caused me a huge delay in this project was fully gnu-izing it. I hadn't built anything complex using automake, autoconf, libtool, texi, etc. That was a huge learning curve. I decided to implement custom microcode (and HP microcode for that matter) as dynamic loadable code via ltdl. Many would consider this overkill but it seemed a very logical way to do it. That was another learning curve. As I'm sure many will attest, learning autotools & friends from scratch can be a daunting process! Not to mention the fact that every time I turn around, the autotools go through dramatic changes. I follow the autotools mailing lists and they keep changing fast the past year or two. I tried a time or two to get additional developers to help, but no one really stepped up to the plate so I just worked on it when I could. Ok, now you have me interested in it again, maybe it's time to dust it off...... Jay West PS - I don't recall talking about HPEMU much besides here, where did you hear about it? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Sep 8 15:54:31 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:54:31 -0700 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <200609081213360561.038B13CB@10.0.0.252> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <4501AA42.5020601@msm.umr.edu> <200609081213360561.038B13CB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4501D887.7020307@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > <>On 9/8/2006 at 10:37 AM jim stephens wrote: > <>So, you've got a YD-802-4 drive under all of the IBM skin, right? And > you're not using it with an IBM 3174 controller? > sorry, thought I had said I did have a 3174. I have a 3174-63R with token ring, trying to bring up for TN3270 usage over the token ring interface that is installed. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 8 16:22:52 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 16:22:52 -0500 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <4501AA42.5020601@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <004c01c6d38c$f1fb7ab0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim?? wrote.... > I am looking for the Microcode variety. I have a lot of Drivetec media, > but I am not certain that is what is needed for the 2.4mb drives. I missed this thread.... are you looking for the microcode floppies for 3174 at config level C to use TN3270? If so, don't spend a lot of time looking for them, cause you can call IBM's microcode division and get a free set of disks. No licensing paperwork, no cost... just say you need a set and it'll arrive in the mail. That's what I did to get my 3174 with TN3270 up and running. Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 8 16:23:12 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:23:12 -0400 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <200609081042070448.033751F2@10.0.0.252> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <200609081042070448.033751F2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609081723.12986.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 08 September 2006 13:42, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/8/2006 at 10:01 AM Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >I've seen them used in IBM terminal controllers as > >microcode floppies. The drives for said terminal > >controllers are easy to find - I have many. Disks are > >scarcer. I don't know if the IBM 2.4 meg disk is the > >same as the ones used by the Kaypro. I also don't know > >much about how the format works. > > I think we're talking about two different technologies here. IBM > used a drive made by YE data that, while 80 cylinder, packed the data > much more densely on each track. The Drivetec variety used dual > positioners in connection with a servo track to get 160 cylinders (at > 600 RPM). > > In either case, floppies for them are pretty rare. > > However, I wonder what would happen if one formatted the IBM variety > using a 3.5' 2.88MB-capable PC controller. FWIW, I tried hooking one of these up to a catweasel 3 in a PC, and while it could read "1.2MB" floppies just fine, I couldn't get Tim Mann's catweasel utilities to recognize any MFM or other encoding on the data stream that the catweasel card was reading off the 2.4MB disks I've got (which are IBM 3174 microcode disks). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 8 16:23:27 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:23:27 -0400 Subject: Probe/Search TV props In-Reply-To: <200609071210480026.238AAEF9@10.0.0.252> References: <1157654000.10273.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200609071210480026.238AAEF9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609081723.27181.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 07 September 2006 15:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/7/2006 at 7:33 PM Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > >Blue, Red and Yellow were the standard colours, I believe. > >http://www.aconit.org/spip/IMG/jpg/36040.jpg > >http://static.cray-cyber.org/Comprooms/LARGE/IBM_360.jpg > >http://www.newbegin.com/html/misc__item_detail_65.html > >(Though the latter implies you could have any colour you like ...) > > On the other hand, the yellow and bilious green shown in the ad looks > downright revolting...and I've never heard of a purple S/360! I > suppose that if the S/360 were being marketed today, it'd be offered > in white or brushed stainless steel. More likely, Black with a copper strip going up the front door (like how their zSeries boxes are packaged). As far as I know, they don't offer a color option, though cans of Krylon are cheap compared to the machine itself... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 8 16:53:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:53:27 -0700 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <200609081723.12986.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <200609081042070448.033751F2@10.0.0.252> <200609081723.12986.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200609081453270746.0057168E@10.0.0.252> On 9/8/2006 at 5:23 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: >FWIW, I tried hooking one of these up to a catweasel 3 in a PC, and >while it could read "1.2MB" floppies just fine, I couldn't get Tim >Mann's catweasel utilities to recognize any MFM or other encoding on >the data stream that the catweasel card was reading off the 2.4MB disks >I've got (which are IBM 3174 microcode disks). A Catweasel histogram of a track of one of these might shine a little light on the recording technique used. Could be CGR or even a flavor of RLL. But isn't this drive on the 3174 read-only? Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 8 17:11:53 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 17:11:53 -0500 Subject: test - please ignore Message-ID: <001601c6d393$cbdba2e0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> No reply necessary... just had a hiccup with the list server and making sure it's fixed. Jay From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 8 17:23:13 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 15:23:13 -0700 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! References: <0J5700F0GZCNUJWM@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <450064BF.5020403@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4501ED4E.4F130839@cs.ubc.ca> I was curious ... pulled out a bunch of NOS 74x175s and did some tests. I noticed that the behaviour was sensitive to Vcc and ended up with the following table. The values 0<=n<=4 in the matrix indicate the number of flip-flops in the IC which worked as desired, so 4 is 'good'. <--> repeat across --> progression up <-- progression down Vcc Unit MFG DEVICE DATE 4.1 4.3 4.5 4.7 4.9 5.1 5.3 ---- --- ------ ---- |---|---|---|---|---|---|---| 1. TI 175 7340 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2. " 4 <--> 4 3. " 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 4. TI 175 7624 0 <--> 0 5. Hit 175 6G46 4 3 <-- 0 6. TI S175 7340 4 <--> 4 7. " 1 --> 3 4 4 8. " 0 --> 3 9. " 2 3 4 <--> 4 10. TI S175 7936 4 <--> 4 11. " 4 <--> 4 12. " 4 <--> 4 13. " 4 <--> 4 14. NS S175 8742 4 <--> 4 15. NS LS175 8332 0 <--> 0 Observations: - behaviour may differ between IC units even within valid Vcc range, - a given IC unit may change its behaviour within or near valid Vcc range, - 175 class may pass at lower Vcc and fail at higher Vcc, - S175 class may pass at higher Vcc and fail at lower Vcc. Interesting the way 175 and S175 devices differ in their response to Vcc change. The group of TI S175s from 1979 did seem to show reliable behaviour over the entire range. One way or the other, the DEC front panel is relying on unspecified behaviour of the device. I wonder if the designers were just relying on old habits of setting flip-flops via collector triggerring from the discrete days, and just got lucky that it worked. (Another observation was that the clock input *must be held low* for any of the devices to work as desired.) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 8 17:56:05 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 10:56:05 +1200 Subject: CIT-101 terminals (was Re: Probe/Search TV props) Message-ID: On 9/8/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The C-itoh 101 line of VT-100-compatible terminals had the MICR font built > > into ROM... > > http://pdp11.kicks-ass.net Yep. That's exactly it. Also, the CIT-101 has a built-in clock you can see in the first setup screen. You send a (different) documented string to the terminal (typically on login), and for a quick desk clock, tap the SETUP key once to see the tab setup and a digital clock in the upper right corner of the screen. Tap SETUP again and you are back at your OS's prompt. I'm amazed to see so many references to them all at once, but I'd rank them right up there with Wyse terminals as good VT-100 clones. Somewhere, I have some paperwork for how much we (Software Results Corp) paid for them in the early 1980s, but I want to say between $1200 and $1600, *each* (the higher price may be what we paid for real DEC terminals). -ethan From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Sep 8 18:22:48 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:22:48 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working Message-ID: <4501FB48.3090700@nktelco.net> A couple of years ago I got an EAE off of ebay and it has never worked with my -8/e. I was looking at it again and see that my M8330 Timing Generator board is too early a revision to work with the EAE. I need at least rev B (I think). Does anyone have a spare M8330 they could part with? I kick myself for not grabbing a spare processor off of ebay over the years. Otherwise does anyone have a working EAE that would be willing to talk about with me? From rcini at optonline.net Fri Sep 8 18:36:32 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:36:32 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <004601c6d39f$9d975800$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: Is there any practical difference between the CompuPro Disk 1 and Disk 1A that would prevent a 1A disk from working on a 1? I have a line on a Disk 1 controller but only have access to 1A disks from Dave Dunfield. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 8 18:20:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 00:20:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Problems with a DEC RL-01 drive on a PDP-8/A In-Reply-To: from "Mark Csele" at Sep 7, 6 09:36:49 pm Message-ID: > > I did some basic diagnostics on the system. First, checked the > superficial stuff like the cable. The Berg has a strain relief attached > and all wiring looks solid at that end. Also checked the head lock > which was indeed in the lower (free) position however I observed the > head suring loading and it does indeed retract properly ... when the > LOAD key is out the heads retract immediately to the parked (fully > retracted) position. When a fault occurs, heads pull back as well. > True, the unit was transported without the head lock in place - any > ideas on possible misalignments? It's not a nlignment problem (the RLs, being embedded servo drives, are very tolerant of alignemtn), it's more that if the heads bang into each other, or worse still crape across a non-rotating disk, it can damage the heads. However, the fact that your drive finds cylinder 0 and goes ready implies to me that the heads are flying and that they're reading something namely the outer guard band and the survo bursts on cylinder 0). > > When the BOOT switch on the limited-function panel (or the BOOT key on > the console) is pressed, the FAULT light blinks momentarily, the READY > light goes out momentarily, and the disk is restored to the original, > ready, state. When the cartridge is loaded, the heads move from the > parked state to engage the disk. During the fault the heads pull back > to the parked state and are then restored to the disk again. Now that bothers me. IIRC, for some faults the drive does retract the heads to protect the media., This certainly shouldn't happen during a bootstrap. What I would do is to get the appropriate printset (the first RL01s have a logic board that's RL01 only, later ones have a board that can be used in RL02s as well -- there's a jumper to cut or install -- you may actually need the RL02 printset, therefore), and find out what can cause the fault lamp to go on (from what I rememebr there's effectively a big OR gate for this). Then grab a logic probe and see which input(s) of that is/are going active. And progress from there. -tony From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Sep 8 19:04:55 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 17:04:55 -0700 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! In-Reply-To: <4501ED4E.4F130839@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0J5700F0GZCNUJWM@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <450064BF.5020403@mindspring.com> <4501ED4E.4F130839@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45020527.2010607@mindspring.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Observations: > - behaviour may differ between IC units even within valid Vcc range, > - a given IC unit may change its behaviour within or near valid Vcc range, > - 175 class may pass at lower Vcc and fail at higher Vcc, > - S175 class may pass at higher Vcc and fail at lower Vcc. > > Interesting the way 175 and S175 devices differ in their response to Vcc change. > > The group of TI S175s from 1979 did seem to show reliable behaviour over the > entire range. > > One way or the other, the DEC front panel is relying on unspecified behaviour > of the device. I wonder if the designers were just relying on old habits of > setting flip-flops via collector triggerring from the discrete days, and just > got lucky that it worked. > > (Another observation was that the clock input *must be held low* for any > of the devices to work as desired.) Very interesting. I hadn't run any tests varying the VCC voltage in my tests. I'll have to try doing that on the set of parts I've already tested. I also went over to ACE today in San Jose and got half a dozen samples each of TI, NSC, Fairchild, Signetics 74175 and 74S175 from the late 70s/early 80s to test. But based on Brent's data alone I may go back and look for TI S175s from the late 70s. Don From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 8 20:06:35 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 20:06:35 -0500 Subject: another test Message-ID: <001901c6d3ac$3292e080$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> 2nd test, please ignore, no reply necessary From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 8 20:06:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:06:49 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <004601c6d39f$9d975800$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <004601c6d39f$9d975800$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200609081806490172.01081999@10.0.0.252> I can go and check my notes from 25 years ago for you. Alternatively, why not drop Herb Johnson a line at his http://www.retrotechnology.com website? He probably has forgotten more about the CompuPro/Godbout boxes than I've ever learned. Cheers, Chuck On 9/8/2006 at 7:36 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: >All: > > > > Is there any practical difference between the CompuPro Disk 1 >and Disk 1A that would prevent a 1A disk from working on a 1? I have a line >on a Disk 1 controller but only have access to 1A disks from Dave Dunfield. > > > > Thanks. > > > >Rich > > > >Rich Cini > >Collector of classic computers > >Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > >Web site: >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > >Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > >/***************************************************/ From rcini at optonline.net Fri Sep 8 20:12:21 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:12:21 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609081806490172.01081999@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <005601c6d3ad$00d21a10$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I know Herb...I'll drop him a note. I thought that it might be something less obvious than the "A" version of the 765 controller. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 9:07 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences I can go and check my notes from 25 years ago for you. Alternatively, why not drop Herb Johnson a line at his http://www.retrotechnology.com website? He probably has forgotten more about the CompuPro/Godbout boxes than I've ever learned. Cheers, Chuck On 9/8/2006 at 7:36 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: >All: > > > > Is there any practical difference between the CompuPro Disk 1 >and Disk 1A that would prevent a 1A disk from working on a 1? I have a line >on a Disk 1 controller but only have access to 1A disks from Dave Dunfield. > > > > Thanks. > > > >Rich > > > >Rich Cini > >Collector of classic computers > >Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > >Web site: >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > >Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > >/***************************************************/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 8 20:28:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:28:49 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <005601c6d3ad$00d21a10$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <005601c6d3ad$00d21a10$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200609081828490877.011C4058@10.0.0.252> The major difference between the 765 and 765A, IIRC is the "blind spot" PLO sync-up time after the index. The A part shortens it considerably. Cheers, Chuck On 9/8/2006 at 9:12 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: >I know Herb...I'll drop him a note. I thought that it might be something >less obvious than the "A" version of the 765 controller. > >Rich From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Sep 8 22:35:38 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 22:35:38 -0500 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <004601c6d39f$9d975800$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200609090239.k892dMRm031406@hosting.monisys.ca> > Is there any practical difference between the CompuPro Disk 1 > and Disk 1A that would prevent a 1A disk from working on a 1? I have a line > on a Disk 1 controller but only have access to 1A disks from Dave Dunfield. I have a Disk-1A up and running in my Compupro box - unfortunately I do not have a Disk-1 to test with. I do however have manuals for both controllers. >From what I can tell on a cursory readthrough - the Disk-1 and the Disk-1A are very similar, but not identical: - The Disk-1A appears to have some functions available in the write side of some registers which were read-only on the Disk-1 - these seem to control features that had to be set by switches or board modifications on the Disk-1. - The Disk-1 has a bit-bang serial port which has been dropped on the 1A. - The difference is NOT the difference between a 765 and a 765A - both manuals list the 765A as the NEC FDC. - The 765 and motor control registers appear to be in the same place on both controllers. I have a set of original Cromemco CP/M diskettes, and the labels do NOT mention anything about a specific floppy controller board - my guess is that the disks would boot and run on either controller. (But as noted above, I cannot confirm this, so it is just a guess). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 8 21:41:09 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 22:41:09 -0400 Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator Message-ID: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> My latest acquisition came in today, a Mac IIci, that I wanted to use as an OS 6.08 machine with a Daystar Turbo 040 (68040/33) accelerator. Anyway after cleaning up the system and installing the OS I put the card in and loaded the drivers and all was fine (very fast booting). After about 15 minutes I had to reboot for driver update and the system would just bomb during boot (about where the control panel for the Daystar card would want to load). I took the card out and notice there was a capacitor missing on the back with a nasty looking black burn mark. So I started looking around inside for the burn metal part and notice I did not smell or see smoke or little capacitor parts (its a surface mount with no numbers on it). Doing a little digging in my picture archive I verified that the card which I have never used before (which is why I wanted a IIci since it works in that model) was sent to me in this condition. So what I want to know is how the thing functioned at all without the cap (burnt carbon acted as a capacitor in some way)? and what caused it to stop working. If anybody have an original Daystar Turbo 040 33Mhz card with the cache on a separate board could you let me know (if possible) what value C54 s supposed to be? The cap looks to be tied into one or two legs of the oscillator chip that controls the CPU (Ecliptek EC1100 16.667Mhz 93-10). I kind of want this working again since it will be a long time before I find another one at a great price. Thanks TZ From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 8 23:11:17 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:11:17 -0500 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609081806490172.01081999@10.0.0.252> References: <004601c6d39f$9d975800$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <004601c6d39f$9d975800$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060908231034.0d6f0b10@localhost> Was the 1A the one with the regulators jumpered out so you could use one of those newer boxes with regulated power to the bus? At 06:06 PM 9/8/2006 -0700, you wrote: >I can go and check my notes from 25 years ago for you. > >Alternatively, why not drop Herb Johnson a line at his >http://www.retrotechnology.com website? He probably has forgotten more >about the CompuPro/Godbout boxes than I've ever learned. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > >On 9/8/2006 at 7:36 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > > >All: > > > > > > > > Is there any practical difference between the CompuPro Disk 1 > >and Disk 1A that would prevent a 1A disk from working on a 1? I have a >line > >on a Disk 1 controller but only have access to 1A disks from Dave >Dunfield. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > >Rich > > > > > > > >Rich Cini > > > >Collector of classic computers > > > >Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > > > >Web site: > >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > > >Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > > >/***************************************************/ That's the point of quotations, you know: one can use another's words to be insulting." -- Amanda Cross --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Sep 9 00:24:59 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:24:59 -0700 Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator In-Reply-To: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> References: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4502502B.30907@dakotacom.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > My latest acquisition came in today, a Mac IIci, that I wanted to use as an OS 6.08 machine with a Daystar Turbo 040 (68040/33) accelerator. Anyway after cleaning up the system and installing the OS I put the card in and loaded the drivers and all was fine (very fast booting). After about 15 minutes I had to reboot for driver update and the system would just bomb during boot (about where the control panel for the Daystar card would want to load). I took the card out and notice there was a capacitor missing on the back with a nasty looking black burn mark. So I started looking around inside for the burn metal part and notice I did not smell or see smoke or little capacitor parts (its a surface mount with no numbers on it). Doing a little digging in my picture archive I verified that the card which I have never used before (which is why I wanted a IIci since it works in that model) was sent to me in this condition. > > So what I want to know is how the thing functioned at all without the cap (burnt carbon acted as a capacitor in some way)? and what caused it to stop working. > > If anybody have an original Daystar Turbo 040 33Mhz card with the cache on a separate board could you let me know (if possible) what value C54 s supposed to be? The cap looks to be tied into one or two legs of the oscillator chip that controls the CPU (Ecliptek EC1100 16.667Mhz 93-10). > > I kind of want this working again since it will be a long time before I find another one at a great price. Not sure of what you have (nor what *I* have!) :< But, I found a couple of Daystar cards in my Mac pile. Some are 030. I found an 040 that claims to be a "Turbo 040" (written in the solder side foil layer on the corner of the card furthest from the 040). The 040 seems to be a 33MHz part so I will *assume* this is at least SIMILAR to what you're looking for... However, last used C seems to be C49 -- located on the solder side between the CPU and the DIN connector. Perhaps a different revision? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 9 00:31:41 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 01:31:41 -0400 Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator References: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> <4502502B.30907@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <009201c6d3d1$3addd540$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 1:24 AM Subject: Re: Broken Mac Accelerator > Teo Zenios wrote: > > My latest acquisition came in today, a Mac IIci, that I wanted to use as an OS 6.08 machine with a Daystar Turbo 040 (68040/33) accelerator. Anyway after cleaning up the system and installing the OS I put the card in and loaded the drivers and all was fine (very fast booting). After about 15 minutes I had to reboot for driver update and the system would just bomb during boot (about where the control panel for the Daystar card would want to load). I took the card out and notice there was a capacitor missing on the back with a nasty looking black burn mark. So I started looking around inside for the burn metal part and notice I did not smell or see smoke or little capacitor parts (its a surface mount with no numbers on it). Doing a little digging in my picture archive I verified that the card which I have never used before (which is why I wanted a IIci since it works in that model) was sent to me in this condition. > > > > So what I want to know is how the thing functioned at all without the cap (burnt carbon acted as a capacitor in some way)? and what caused it to stop working. > > > > If anybody have an original Daystar Turbo 040 33Mhz card with the cache on a separate board could you let me know (if possible) what value C54 s supposed to be? The cap looks to be tied into one or two legs of the oscillator chip that controls the CPU (Ecliptek EC1100 16.667Mhz 93-10). > > > > I kind of want this working again since it will be a long time before I find another one at a great price. > > Not sure of what you have (nor what *I* have!) :< > But, I found a couple of Daystar cards in my Mac pile. > Some are 030. I found an 040 that claims to be a "Turbo 040" > (written in the solder side foil layer on the corner of the > card furthest from the 040). The 040 seems to be a 33MHz part > so I will *assume* this is at least SIMILAR to what you're looking > for... > > However, last used C seems to be C49 -- located on the solder > side between the CPU and the DIN connector. Perhaps > a different revision? There was an early and a later board. The early part had the cache (128K I believe) on a separate board that connected to the top backside), the later parts had less chips but had no daughterboard since the cache was moved to the main board. The front of mine looks like this: http://pomehouse.com/SE30/Cards/image/turbo040.jpg Later version is this one: http://www.applefritter.com/images/daystar_040_turbo_iici_front-2062_640x480.jpg There are 33Mhz and 40Mhz versions (68040), probably differing only in oscillators used. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Sep 9 00:53:03 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:53:03 -0700 Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator In-Reply-To: <009201c6d3d1$3addd540$0b01a8c0@game> References: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> <4502502B.30907@dakotacom.net> <009201c6d3d1$3addd540$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <450256BF.9050304@dakotacom.net> Teo Zenios wrote: >> However, last used C seems to be C49 -- located on the solder >> side between the CPU and the DIN connector. Perhaps >> a different revision? > > There was an early and a later board. The early part had the cache (128K I > believe) on a separate board that connected to the top backside), the later > parts had less chips but had no daughterboard since the cache was moved to > the main board. > > The front of mine looks like this: > http://pomehouse.com/SE30/Cards/image/turbo040.jpg > > Later version is this one: > http://www.applefritter.com/images/daystar_040_turbo_iici_front-2062_640x480.jpg Yes, this is what I have. Sorry! :( > There are 33Mhz and 40Mhz versions (68040), probably differing only in > oscillators used. ... and the speed grade of the CPU, no doubt! Good luck! From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat Sep 9 02:08:30 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 00:08:30 -0700 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! In-Reply-To: <4501ED4E.4F130839@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0J5700F0GZCNUJWM@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <450064BF.5020403@mindspring.com> <4501ED4E.4F130839@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4502686E.6060504@mindspring.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I was curious ... pulled out a bunch of NOS 74x175s > and did some tests. I noticed that the behaviour was > sensitive to Vcc and ended up with the following table. > > The values 0<=n<=4 in the matrix indicate the number of > flip-flops in the IC which worked as desired, so 4 is 'good'. > > <--> repeat across > --> progression up > <-- progression down Vcc Unit MFG DEVICE DATE 4.1 4.3 4.5 4.7 4.9 5.1 5.3 ---- --- ------ ---- |---|---|---|---|---|---|---| 1. TI 175 7340 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2. " 4 <--> 4 3. " 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 4. TI 175 7624 0 <--> 0 5. Hit 175 6G46 4 3 <-- 0 6. TI S175 7340 4 <--> 4 7. " 1 --> 3 4 4 8. " 0 --> 3 9. " 2 3 4 <--> 4 10. TI S175 7936 4 <--> 4 11. " 4 <--> 4 12. " 4 <--> 4 13. " 4 <--> 4 14. NS S175 8742 4 <--> 4 15. NS LS175 8332 0 <--> 0 Vcc Unit MFG DEVICE DATE 4.1 4.3 4.5 4.7 4.9 5.1 5.3 5.5 Notes ---- --- ------ ---- |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| ------------- 16. NS 175 7923 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 17. NS 175 8948 4 4 4 4 4 2 0 0 18. FAIR 175 8001 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 0 19. SIG 175 8202 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Works in PDP-8m console 20. TI 175 8705 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 21. SGS LS175 8241 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 22. TI S175 345B 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Works in PDP-8m console 23. SIG S175 8421 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Fails w/ no pullups > Observations: > - behaviour may differ between IC units even within valid Vcc range, > - a given IC unit may change its behaviour within or near valid Vcc range, > - 175 class may pass at lower Vcc and fail at higher Vcc, > - S175 class may pass at higher Vcc and fail at lower Vcc. > > Interesting the way 175 and S175 devices differ in their response to > Vcc change. I didn't see any of the fail at lower VCC on any S175 parts, but I only tested one sample from each date code. I have more parts, but I got bored :-) > > The group of TI S175s from 1979 did seem to show reliable behaviour > over the > entire range. I found this to be true of the TI S175 date code 345B (which I don't know how to decode) and the Signetics 175 from '82. Both were rock solid in the test circuit and work reliably in the PDP-8m console socket with no add'l rework (ie, no pullups required as with the previous S175 SIG part). > > One way or the other, the DEC front panel is relying on unspecified > behaviour > of the device. I wonder if the designers were just relying on old > habits of > setting flip-flops via collector triggering from the discrete days, > and just > got lucky that it worked. I agree, this circuit is more complex than it really needs to be. The two 175s and the 04 hex inverter packs can be replaced by three 7400 quad nand packs (plus six pullup resistors) that implement simple cross-coupled latch debouncers. Sometimes a designer gets a bug in their head to implement a 'cute' circuit when really doing something more simple and straightforward is the better solution. Of course I would never do that :-), I'm only reporting that I've seen it done. Anyway, for now it appears replacing the existing flaky S175 dc '76 parts in my PDP-8m console with SIG 175 dc '82 parts has fixed the problems, no add'l rework or circuit hacks required. Don From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat Sep 9 02:17:55 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 00:17:55 -0700 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! In-Reply-To: <4502686E.6060504@mindspring.com> References: <0J5700F0GZCNUJWM@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <450064BF.5020403@mindspring.com> <4501ED4E.4F130839@cs.ubc.ca> <4502686E.6060504@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <45026AA3.3030601@mindspring.com> [ sorry for the resend - the table format was messed up in the last message - Don ] Brent Hilpert wrote: > I was curious ... pulled out a bunch of NOS 74x175s > and did some tests. I noticed that the behaviour was > sensitive to Vcc and ended up with the following table. > > The values 0<=n<=4 in the matrix indicate the number of > flip-flops in the IC which worked as desired, so 4 is 'good'. > > <--> repeat across > --> progression up > <-- progression down Vcc Unit MFG DEVICE DATE 4.1 4.3 4.5 4.7 4.9 5.1 5.3 ---- --- ------ ---- |---|---|---|---|---|---|---| 1. TI 175 7340 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2. " 4 <--> 4 3. " 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 4. TI 175 7624 0 <--> 0 5. Hit 175 6G46 4 3 <-- 0 6. TI S175 7340 4 <--> 4 7. " 1 --> 3 4 4 8. " 0 --> 3 9. " 2 3 4 <--> 4 10. TI S175 7936 4 <--> 4 11. " 4 <--> 4 12. " 4 <--> 4 13. " 4 <--> 4 14. NS S175 8742 4 <--> 4 15. NS LS175 8332 0 <--> 0 Vcc Unit MFG DEVICE DATE 4.1 4.3 4.5 4.7 4.9 5.1 5.3 5.5 Notes ---- --- ------ ---- |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| ------------- 16. NS 175 7923 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 17. NS 175 8948 4 4 4 4 4 2 0 0 18. FAIR 175 8001 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 0 19. SIG 175 8202 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Works in PDP-8m console 20. TI 175 8705 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 21. SGS LS175 8241 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 22. TI S175 345B 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Works in PDP-8m console 23. SIG S175 8421 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Fails w/ no pullups > Observations: > - behaviour may differ between IC units even within valid Vcc range, > - a given IC unit may change its behaviour within or near valid Vcc range, > - 175 class may pass at lower Vcc and fail at higher Vcc, > - S175 class may pass at higher Vcc and fail at lower Vcc. > > Interesting the way 175 and S175 devices differ in their response to Vcc change. I didn't see any of the fail at lower VCC on any S175 parts, but I only tested one sample from each date code. I have more parts, but I got bored :-) > The group of TI S175s from 1979 did seem to show reliable behaviour over the > entire range. I found this to be true of the TI S175 date code 345B (which I don't know how to decode) and the Signetics 175 from '82. Both were rock solid in the test circuit and work reliably in the PDP-8m console socket with no add'l rework (ie, no pullups required as with the previous S175 SIG part). > One way or the other, the DEC front panel is relying on unspecified behaviour > of the device. I wonder if the designers were just relying on old habits of > setting flip-flops via collector triggering from the discrete days, and just > got lucky that it worked. I agree, this circuit is more complex than it really needs to be. The two 175s and the 04 hex inverter packs can be replaced by three 7400 quad nand packs (plus six pullup resistors) that implement simple cross-coupled latch debouncers. Sometimes a designer gets a bug in their head to implement a 'cute' circuit when really doing something more simple and straightforward is the better solution. Of course I would never do that :-) , I'm only reporting that I've seen it done. Anyway, for now it appears replacing the existing flaky S175 dc '76 parts in my PDP-8m console with SIG 175 dc '82 parts has fixed the problems, no add'l rework or circuit hacks required. Don From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 9 02:42:09 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 00:42:09 -0700 Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies Message-ID: Is there any problem with punching the left side of a floppy so you can write to the other side of a floppy in a 1541 drive? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 9 02:48:05 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 00:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there any problem with punching the left side of a floppy so you > can write to the other side of a floppy in a 1541 drive? Nope. Lots of people did that. You used to be able to buy special hole punches for making a square notch exactly where it needs to be. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From vax at purdue.edu Fri Sep 8 14:25:20 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 15:25:20 -0400 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <200609081042070448.033751F2@10.0.0.252> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <200609081042070448.033751F2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609081525.20268.vax@purdue.edu> On Friday 08 September 2006 13:42, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/8/2006 at 10:01 AM Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >I've seen them used in IBM terminal controllers as > >microcode floppies. The drives for said terminal > >controllers are easy to find - I have many. Disks are > >scarcer. I don't know if the IBM 2.4 meg disk is the > >same as the ones used by the Kaypro. I also don't know > >much about how the format works. > > I think we're talking about two different technologies here. IBM > used a drive made by YE data that, while 80 cylinder, packed the data > much more densely on each track. The Drivetec variety used dual > positioners in connection with a servo track to get 160 cylinders (at > 600 RPM). > > In either case, floppies for them are pretty rare. > > However, I wonder what would happen if one formatted the IBM variety > using a 3.5' 2.88MB-capable PC controller. FWIW, I tried hooking one of these up to a catweasel 3 in a PC, and while it could read "1.2MB" floppies just fine, I couldn't get Tim Mann's catweasel utilities to recognize any MFM or other encoding on the data stream that the catweasel card was reading off the 2.4MB disks I've got (which are IBM 3174 microcode disks). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 9 04:55:58 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 10:55:58 +0100 Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator In-Reply-To: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> References: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45028FAE.1080607@gjcp.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > So what I want to know is how the thing functioned at all without the cap (burnt carbon acted as a capacitor in some way)? and what caused it to stop working. Wel the carbon would act as a resistor. What you might find is that the cap is just decoupling a supply line somewhere, in which case it can probably lose one without too much worry. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 9 06:52:17 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 07:52:17 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5B00L2MQAUEU13@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:35:38 -0500 > To: > >> Is there any practical difference between the CompuPro Disk 1 >> and Disk 1A that would prevent a 1A disk from working on a 1? I have a line >> on a Disk 1 controller but only have access to 1A disks from Dave Dunfield. > >I have a Disk-1A up and running in my Compupro box - unfortunately I do not >have a Disk-1 to test with. I do however have manuals for both controllers. > >>From what I can tell on a cursory readthrough - the Disk-1 and the Disk-1A >are very similar, but not identical: > > - The Disk-1A appears to have some functions available in the write side > of some registers which were read-only on the Disk-1 - these seem to > control features that had to be set by switches or board modifications on > the Disk-1. > >- The Disk-1 has a bit-bang serial port which has been dropped on the 1A. > >- The difference is NOT the difference between a 765 and a 765A - both > manuals list the 765A as the NEC FDC. > >- The 765 and motor control registers appear to be in the same place on > both controllers. > >I have a set of original Cromemco CP/M diskettes, and the labels do NOT >mention anything about a specific floppy controller board - my guess is that >the disks would boot and run on either controller. (But as noted above, I >cannot confirm this, so it is just a guess). > >Dave You missed one item, different eprom and contents. The differences there include boot code for 8088 and in very late 1A version 68000. They are essentially the same, though of the two the latter 1a is prefered. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 9 07:12:43 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 08:12:43 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5B00CDWR8WHJK2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:36:32 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >All: > > > > Is there any practical difference between the CompuPro Disk 1 >and Disk 1A that would prevent a 1A disk from working on a 1? I have a line >on a Disk 1 controller but only have access to 1A disks from Dave Dunfield. Generally none. The 1A has an different boot rom (boots more cpus and IO combos) and no serial (bit bang port). The difference of the 765 vs 765A will not be a problem for C-pro disks. If it concerns you you can put a 765A in a disk-1 with no other changes. The rest of the differnces in the two boards are small, though of the two I prefer the 1A as it has a lot of small fixes on the same basic design. Allison > > > > Thanks. > > > >Rich > > > >Rich Cini > >Collector of classic computers > >Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > >Web site: >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > >Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > >/***************************************************/ > > From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Sep 9 08:39:24 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 08:39:24 -0500 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5B00L2MQAUEU13@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609091243.k89ChHcv014949@hosting.monisys.ca> > You missed one item, different eprom and contents. The differences there > include boot code for 8088 and in very late 1A version 68000. They are > essentially the same, though of the two the latter 1a is prefered. Yeah, I ment to mention that ... And hand-in-hand with it, the boot option switch settings on the 1 are different than the 1A (no 8086 modes for example). Q: Are the controllers similar enough that the boot code from the 1A will work in the 1 - ie: If Rich wanted to run an 8088/86 CPU could he put the boot code from the !A into the 1 and boot the system? (He might have to put in just the mode he wants in an accessable "slot" in the 1A ROM space) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jclang at notms.net Sat Sep 9 10:26:10 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 11:26:10 -0400 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <200609081453270746.0057168E@10.0.0.252> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <200609081723.12986.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200609081453270746.0057168E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <06090911261000.05527@bell> On Friday 08 September 2006 17:53, you wrote: > On 9/8/2006 at 5:23 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >FWIW, I tried hooking one of these up to a catweasel 3 in a PC, and > >while it could read "1.2MB" floppies just fine, I couldn't get Tim > >Mann's catweasel utilities to recognize any MFM or other encoding on > >the data stream that the catweasel card was reading off the 2.4MB disks > >I've got (which are IBM 3174 microcode disks). > > A Catweasel histogram of a track of one of these might shine a little light > on the recording technique used. Could be CGR or even a flavor of RLL. > > But isn't this drive on the 3174 read-only? > > Cheers, > Chuck Actually it's not read only. It's just used that way most of the time. I'm using a couple of drives from a cluster controller. I had to figure out how the 2.4 meg worked... They have a two speed spindle 360/180 rpm and use 500kbit mfm just like 8" dd disks. 2.4 meg. only works on "microcode" disks though. And they are pretty scarce. joe lang From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 9 10:59:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 08:59:55 -0700 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <06090911261000.05527@bell> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <200609081723.12986.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200609081453270746.0057168E@10.0.0.252> <06090911261000.05527@bell> Message-ID: <200609090859550626.0439C105@10.0.0.252> On 9/9/2006 at 11:26 AM joseph c lang wrote: >They have a two speed spindle 360/180 rpm and use 500kbit mfm just like >8" dd disks. 2.4 meg. only works on "microcode" disks though. And they are pretty >scarce. This reminds me of one of the dodges offered early on in the PC to enable a 5150 or 5160 PC to handle 1.2M diskettes without swapping the controller card--someone offered a dual-speed drive that spun at 300 and 180 RPM (not to be confused with the 300/360 dual-speed 1.2M drives). Apparently it worked, but I wondered how good the S/N ratio at the lower spindle speed was. For a short time, it was either very expensive or next to impossible to get a 1.2MB-capable controller for a 5150, since the PC/AT put the FDC on the HDC board. The gap was quickly filled by outfits like Micro Solutions and Sysgen (and then the Far East cloners) and the dual-speed drives vanished. Is the coating on the 2.4MB floppies a standard formulation? It would seem to be a simple matter to format these things if that were true--assuming the drive supports writing at the lower spindle speed. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 9 11:01:14 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 12:01:14 -0400 Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16aae92a0710db7cf9a60c8d401c444e@neurotica.com> On Sep 9, 2006, at 3:42 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there any problem with punching the left side of a floppy so you > can write to the other side of a floppy in a 1541 drive? My best friend did that in high school with his C64/1541, and I did it with my Atari 800/810. These are very dusty neurons, but I'm fairly certain neither of us had any difficulties. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 9 09:06:12 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 10:06:12 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5B00ASBWI0CS54@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 08:39:24 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >> You missed one item, different eprom and contents. The differences there >> include boot code for 8088 and in very late 1A version 68000. They are >> essentially the same, though of the two the latter 1a is prefered. > >Yeah, I ment to mention that ... And hand-in-hand with it, the boot option >switch settings on the 1 are different than the 1A (no 8086 modes for >example). The 8086 mode is only a preset to a block of eprom for booting, same for others. >Q: Are the controllers similar enough that the boot code from the 1A will >work in the 1 - ie: If Rich wanted to run an 8088/86 CPU could he put >the boot code from the !A into the 1 and boot the system? (He might have >to put in just the mode he wants in an accessable "slot" in the 1A ROM >space) Yes, the basic control floppy registers and addresses are identical. The DMA also behaves the same. However it means burning a new eprom as the 1A used a larger prom. NOTE: the caveat is the booter also knows what size floppy is used (8 or 5.25) as well as what CPU in the case of the 1A there are 16 different possible S1 settings for booter. The late 1As could boot 8085/88 card, z80, 8086, 80286, 68000, 32016. Allison From root at parse.com Sat Sep 9 11:00:19 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 12:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Trade: IBM360 F/P for 8, 8/S or 8/L Message-ID: <200609091600.k89G0J4U006993@amd64.ott.parse.com> I'm looking to offload an IBM 360 front panel in order to focus more on my core collection. A good picture can be found at: http://www.parse.com/~museum/misc/index.html I collect PDP-8's mainly, so I'm looking to get a straight 8, and 8/S, or an 8/L. Now, I realize that the front panel is probably not worth a straight 8 or an /S, (but might be worth an /L), so I'm willing to pitch in some cash as well, or other items (lots of spare cards, misc electronics, whatever). Let me know what you have, and where you are located. I'm at Kanata/ON/Canada postal code K2M 1C5. Probably best to take this offlist to rk at parse.com Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers! From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sat Sep 9 12:47:25 2006 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:47:25 -0400 Subject: "reset" C64? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes there is Zane. It is located on the back near the edge connector IIRC. Greg Manuel -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 2:10 AM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: "reset" C64? Is there an equivalent to CTRL-ALT-Delete on the C64 so you don't have to turn it on and off every time you want to run a new program? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rcini at optonline.net Sat Sep 9 12:59:08 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:59:08 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609091243.k89ChHcv014949@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <007a01c6d439$a5fe7920$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I looked at the CompuPro disk image on Dave Dunfield's site and it's for an 8" drive. The defining thing for me is getting a CP/M 2.2 image in 5.25" format. I've found another controller, from CCS (California Computer Systems) that might work, too. So does anyone have a 5.25" CP/M 80 image for either of these two boards? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 9:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > You missed one item, different eprom and contents. The differences there > include boot code for 8088 and in very late 1A version 68000. They are > essentially the same, though of the two the latter 1a is prefered. Yeah, I ment to mention that ... And hand-in-hand with it, the boot option switch settings on the 1 are different than the 1A (no 8086 modes for example). Q: Are the controllers similar enough that the boot code from the 1A will work in the 1 - ie: If Rich wanted to run an 8088/86 CPU could he put the boot code from the !A into the 1 and boot the system? (He might have to put in just the mode he wants in an accessable "slot" in the 1A ROM space) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 9 13:26:35 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:26:35 -0400 Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609091426.35495.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 09 September 2006 03:42 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there any problem with punching the left side of a floppy so you > can write to the other side of a floppy in a 1541 drive? I knew of folks that did this all the time. What I remember reading about the practice back when was that some folks thought it not to be a good idea because they said that the liner of the floppy's package was supposed to "sweep up" any loose particles of oxide or any other contaminants and that reversing the direction of rotation would cut all of this stuff loose. My one machine which uses single-sided drives is my Osborne Executive, and I never did that bit myself. One time a guy sent me some software on a floppy where he had done that and I was unable to load all of the info on the second side, and kept running into errors. Whether this was due to the above or there was too much wear on the disk or it was something else I couldn't really say. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 9 13:36:53 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 14:36:53 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working In-Reply-To: <4501FB48.3090700@nktelco.net> References: <4501FB48.3090700@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <43d676aa5a86fb6879ef9bc6feb23772@neurotica.com> On Sep 8, 2006, at 7:22 PM, C. H. Dickman wrote: > A couple of years ago I got an EAE off of ebay and it has never worked > with my -8/e. I was looking at it again and see that my M8330 Timing > Generator board is too early a revision to work with the EAE. I need > at least rev B (I think). Does anyone have a spare M8330 they could > part with? I kick myself for not grabbing a spare processor off of > ebay over the years. Otherwise does anyone have a working EAE that > would be willing to talk about with me? I have two working EAEs and can help you diagnose. I *might* have a spare timing generator; I will check when I return home tonight or tomorrow. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 9 13:40:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 13:40:33 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working References: <4501FB48.3090700@nktelco.net> <43d676aa5a86fb6879ef9bc6feb23772@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000601c6d43f$6f891200$6700a8c0@BILLING> Dave wrote.... > spare timing generator; I will check when I return home tonight or > tomorrow. Woah! A "spare time generator"??? I want one!!!!!! J From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 9 14:08:57 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:08:57 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working In-Reply-To: <000601c6d43f$6f891200$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <4501FB48.3090700@nktelco.net> <43d676aa5a86fb6879ef9bc6feb23772@neurotica.com> <000601c6d43f$6f891200$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45031149.8090302@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > Woah! A "spare time generator"??? I want one!!!!!! But you need to supply a *flux Capacitor* .:) It still amazes me that a 4096 word computer can have hardware aided floating point. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat Sep 9 14:25:32 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 15:25:32 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working In-Reply-To: <43d676aa5a86fb6879ef9bc6feb23772@neurotica.com> References: <4501FB48.3090700@nktelco.net> <43d676aa5a86fb6879ef9bc6feb23772@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4503152C.7020209@nktelco.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > I have two working EAEs and can help you diagnose. I *might* have a > spare timing generator; I will check when I return home tonight or > tomorrow. Thanks to all for the offers, I have a board coming. With any luck my EAE works, the old M8330 I have is just not compatible. There is a signal missing from the over-the-top connector. -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 9 14:30:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:30:28 -0700 Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: <200609091426.35495.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609091426.35495.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609091230280996.04FA8599@10.0.0.252> On 9/9/2006 at 2:26 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I knew of folks that did this all the time. What I remember reading about >the practice back when was that some folks thought it not to be a good idea >because they said that the liner of the floppy's package was supposed to >"sweep up" any loose particles of oxide or any other contaminants and that >reversing the direction of rotation would cut all of this stuff loose. I've got a few 8" diskettes that are punched to be "flippies" by the factory; i.e., there are two index apertures (with a mirror offset) punched in the jacket and labels on both sides. I don't think it does much harm to use your diskettes this way. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Sep 9 14:49:43 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 15:49:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:08:57 MDT." <45031149.8090302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200609091949.k89JnhDo001827@mwave.heeltoe.com> woodelf wrote: >It still amazes me that a 4096 word computer >can have hardware aided floating point. it's more (as I recall, dimly) for integer multiply and divide, which (as I also recall, dimly) was pretty costly in software on the 8. I seem to remember pawing through focal and basic fp routines and the bit by bit work was very slow. EAE helped a lot. I also remember using the 8/L's at Carleton College as password generators and using them to crack TSS/8 passwords on their 8/I :-) early distributed computing :-) -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 9 15:29:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:29:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator In-Reply-To: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Sep 8, 6 10:41:09 pm Message-ID: > > So what I want to know is how the thing functioned at all without the = > cap (burnt carbon acted as a capacitor in some way)? and what caused it = That cap[acitor was probably a tantalum electrolytic (this being the type normally known for exploding in this manner) and was probably a supply decoupuling capacitor. That is, it was connected across the supply lines to come component (say between +5V and ground), close to that component to probide a local store of energy. Otherwise, the sudden current surge when the device switehd could cause excessive voltage drop across the supply traces to that component, and thus cause further problems. That said, ther'es often a fair ammout of over-enginnering when it comes to such capacitors. As I put it 'Decoupling capacitors are cheap, my time in finding obscure glitches isn't'. So it's common to put at least one per chip, at least on experimental/low-volume-production boards. And therefore if one failes, it's likely the board will keep running. I've had tantalum capacitors faile while a machine is in use, and the machine just carries on. > to stop working. Now that I don't know, but it may have nothing to do with that capacitor. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 9 16:02:11 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 14:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <200609090859550626.0439C105@10.0.0.252> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <200609081723.12986.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200609081453270746.0057168E@10.0.0.252> <06090911261000.05527@bell> <200609090859550626.0439C105@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060909135152.U33927@shell.lmi.net> > >They have a two speed spindle 360/180 rpm and use 500kbit mfm just like > >8" dd disks. 2.4 meg. only works on "microcode" disks though. And they are > pretty > >scarce. On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > This reminds me of one of the dodges offered early on in the PC to enable a > 5150 or 5160 PC to handle 1.2M diskettes without swapping the controller > card--someone offered a dual-speed drive that spun at 300 and 180 RPM (not > to be confused with the 300/360 dual-speed 1.2M drives). Apparently it > worked, but I wondered how good the S/N ratio at the lower spindle speed > was. Weltec was the best known of those. 180RPM drive designed for 600 Oersted media at 250K data transfer rate. I know somebody who has one (if he can find it). It worked, but reliability was noticeably lower than the real thing. At the 500K rate, it should work for the 2.4M. But so would a "normal" 1.2M drive run at a 1000K data transfer rate ("2.8M") > For a short time, it was either very expensive or next to impossible > to get a 1.2MB-capable controller for a 5150, since the PC/AT put the FDC > on the HDC board. The gap was quickly filled by outfits like Micro > Solutions and Sysgen (and then the Far East cloners) and the dual-speed > drives vanished. I had 8" drives on 5150 before I had an AT. Flagstaff Engineering, MicroTech Export, Vista, Maynard, Amlyn, Tall tree (JDisk), etc. Before the AT came out, there wasn't a solid standard for how mode switching was controlled. And, before the AT, some of the 1.2M drives had a 50 pin 8" style connector. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Sep 9 16:22:30 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 17:22:30 -0400 Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: <200609091230280996.04FA8599@10.0.0.252> References: <200609091426.35495.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609091230280996.04FA8599@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <45033096.8050306@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a few 8" diskettes that are punched to be "flippies" by the > factory; i.e., there are two index apertures (with a mirror offset) punched > in the jacket and labels on both sides. > > I don't think it does much harm to use your diskettes this way. > It doesn't. The C64 flippy disks worked just fine. The 1541 didn't care about the index hole at all. The floppies that didn't work were early generations of SS/DD 5.25". Early on, they really were single sided and could fail. Later on, even the ones labeled SS/DD were actually DS/DD because it was easier to manufacture DS/DD's and label them as both. I used a normal hole puncher to make these. Didn't bother with a special square one. Worked just fine as long as you aligned the hole properly. You shouldn't use DS/HD floppies with the 1541 as the r/w head doesn't have the proper power to handle to coercivity of high density disks. (Not sure if that would be ok with the 1571's.) The only real worry was dirt since you're now spinning the disk backwards when you put it in upside down. As long as it spins in only one direction, dirt tends to stick to the inner cladding or whatever it's called. When you put them in upside down, they spin backwards releasing some of the dirt back onto the cookie. In real life however, the only time I had any problems it was due to magnetic interference or bending when not too careful. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 9 16:28:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:28:56 -0700 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <20060909135152.U33927@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <200609081723.12986.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200609081453270746.0057168E@10.0.0.252> <06090911261000.05527@bell> <200609090859550626.0439C105@10.0.0.252> <20060909135152.U33927@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609091428560095.0566F656@10.0.0.252> On 9/9/2006 at 2:02 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >At the 500K rate, it should work for the 2.4M. >But so would a "normal" 1.2M drive run at a 1000K data transfer rate >("2.8M") I'm not convinced of that, Fred. Most drive read circuitry has some sort of low-pass filtering and I suspect that it would get in the way of a 1Mbps data rate. At least that's what I've found with some of the older 5.25" drives. It shouldn't be hard to hack a "regular" 1.2MB drive to spin at 180 rpm so 2.4MB could be formatted, but the media formulation is what I'm curious about. I should have said "For a short time, it was either very expensive or next to impossible to get a 1.2MB-capable PC/AT compatible controller for a 5150". In any case, even the non-hardware-compatible CompatiCard I/II or the Tall Tree setups were pretty expensive. I can remember hacking a cheap Taiwanese XT controller to handle 500Kbps media was the most cost-effective. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 9 16:32:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:32:48 -0700 Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: <45033096.8050306@arachelian.com> References: <200609091426.35495.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609091230280996.04FA8599@10.0.0.252> <45033096.8050306@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200609091432480502.056A822A@10.0.0.252> On 9/9/2006 at 5:22 PM Ray Arachelian wrote: >You shouldn't use DS/HD floppies with the 1541 as the r/w head doesn't >have the proper power to handle to coercivity of high density disks. >(Not sure if that would be ok with the 1571's.) I doubt that they would work well at all in the 1571. "360K" media is still the best bet. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 9 22:34:54 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 20:34:54 -0700 Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: <45033096.8050306@arachelian.com> References: <200609091426.35495.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609091230280996.04FA8599@10.0.0.252> <45033096.8050306@arachelian.com> Message-ID: At 5:22 PM -0400 9/9/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: >Later on, even the ones labeled SS/DD were actually DS/DD because it was >easier to manufacture DS/DD's and label them as both. The ones I'm using are old DS/DD disks that I had in a closet. The pack I opened last night is probably 10-20 years old :^) >I used a normal hole puncher to make these. Didn't bother with a >special square one. Worked just fine as long as you aligned the hole >properly. Can't believe it, but I actually had to buy one today while I was out! I'd love one of the proper notchers, but don't think there is much chance of getting one. >The only real worry was dirt since you're now spinning the disk >backwards when you put it in upside down. As long as it spins in only >one direction, dirt tends to stick to the inner cladding or whatever >it's called. When you put them in upside down, they spin backwards >releasing some of the dirt back onto the cookie. The disks I'll be notching, are brand new, and/or have been stored in sealed containers. Managed to also find some the plastic storage boxes that hold 5-10 floppies and seal up in storage today. So hopefully I'll be able to minimize any dirt problems. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 9 22:42:48 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 20:42:48 -0700 Subject: Commodore C128/A500 Power bricks Message-ID: Will a C128 power brick be able to handle an Amiga 500? It looks to have a higher rating than the Amiga 600 brick I have (for that matter, can it drive an A500). Spent a lot of time up in storage, found a cable to let me hook my A500 up the the Commodore 2002 monitor I use with the C64, and *FINALLY* found a pair of Joysticks. Unfortunately they're Epyx 500JX sticks, and about the only sticks I've used that are worse might be Commodore's clone of the Atari sticks. Also dug up two more C64's (I think one is a C64c, do they say they're a "C" anywhere), a 1541 drive, a bunch of carts (including another Epyx Fastload), some software, and a printer interface. I seriously considered bringing the C128 and A500 back (thankfully found the external drive also today), but decided against the A500 since I wasn't sure about the powersupply and it was getting to hot to try to get back to the C128. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 9 23:09:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 21:09:12 -0700 Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: References: <200609091426.35495.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609091230280996.04FA8599@10.0.0.252> <45033096.8050306@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200609092109120587.06D56A4D@10.0.0.252> On 9/9/2006 at 8:34 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >At 5:22 PM -0400 9/9/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: >The ones I'm using are old DS/DD disks that I had in a closet. The >pack I opened last night is probably 10-20 years old :^) > >>I used a normal hole puncher to make these. Didn't bother with a >>special square one. Worked just fine as long as you aligned the hole >>properly. Dig into your toolbox and grab the sheet-metal nibbler. Makes great square notches. Everybody's got one of these, right? If not, you should--it's indispensible for making connector holes, etc. in metal, plastic, or PCB. Makes neat little chips instead of powder or shavings. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 9 23:48:04 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:48:04 +1200 Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator In-Reply-To: References: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On 9/10/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > So what I want to know is how the thing functioned at all without the = > > cap (burnt carbon acted as a capacitor in some way)? and what caused it = > > That cap[acitor was probably a tantalum electrolytic (this being the type > normally known for exploding in this manner) and was probably a supply > decoupuling capacitor. > > to stop working. > > Now that I don't know, but it may have nothing to do with that capacitor. Perhaps there was some PCB damage under the exploded cap? We had a tantalum cap (16uF?) blow on a COMBOARD that was installed in a crowded BA-11... it looked like someone shot the board with a .22. The boards on either side were damaged as well, but not perforated. Since the OP described blackening, perhaps it might be worth a few minutes to gently remove the residue (95% Isopropyl (1,2-propanol?)) and a soft toothbrush should get most of the crud off - then check the traces and see if there's any visible damage. Even if that's not where the problem is, a gentle cleaning should hurt anything. -ethan From bear at typewritten.org Sat Sep 9 23:57:12 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:57:12 -0700 Subject: Commodore C128/A500 Power bricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 9, 2006, at 8:42 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Will a C128 power brick be able to handle an Amiga 500? It looks > to have a higher rating than the Amiga 600 brick I have (for that > matter, can it drive an A500). No. Bad. +-----v-----+ | 2 3 | | 5 | | 1 4 | +-----------+ C=128 A500 1 +5VDC Shield 2 GND +12VDC 3 9VAC GND 4 GND +5VDC 5 9VAC (opposite phase) -12VDC The obvious other thing would then be the lack of a power switch. The C=128 supply won't work on a Plus/4 either. The A600 supply has the same pinout as the A500 supply, but I'm not sure about the ratings. At least you won't burn anything up (except maybe the PSU) trying it. ok bear From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 10 00:42:42 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 22:42:42 -0700 Subject: Commodore C128/A500 Power bricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Sep 9, 2006, at 8:42 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>Will a C128 power brick be able to handle an Amiga 500? It looks >>to have a higher rating than the Amiga 600 brick I have (for that >>matter, can it drive an A500). > >No. Bad. > >+-----v-----+ >| 2 3 | >| 5 | >| 1 4 | >+-----------+ > > C=128 A500 >1 +5VDC Shield >2 GND +12VDC >3 9VAC GND >4 GND +5VDC >5 9VAC (opposite phase) -12VDC > > >The obvious other thing would then be the lack of a power switch. >The C=128 supply won't work on a Plus/4 either. > >The A600 supply has the same pinout as the A500 supply, but I'm not >sure about the ratings. At least you won't burn anything up (except >maybe the PSU) trying it. I did some looking and it appears that the A600 supply is most powerful of the A500/A600/A1200 supplies! However, as I got the A600 (and a pair of unstable A1200's) well after the A500, this is a pretty good indication that I have an A500 power supply somewhere. The odds are, wherever that is, is also where one of my *good* Wico Joysticks is :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 10 01:07:27 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 02:07:27 -0400 Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator References: <006701c6d3b9$68ac2340$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <002801c6d49f$6497b3f0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 12:48 AM Subject: Re: Broken Mac Accelerator > On 9/10/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > So what I want to know is how the thing functioned at all without the = > > > cap (burnt carbon acted as a capacitor in some way)? and what caused it = > > > > That cap[acitor was probably a tantalum electrolytic (this being the type > > normally known for exploding in this manner) and was probably a supply > > decoupuling capacitor. > > > > to stop working. > > > > Now that I don't know, but it may have nothing to do with that capacitor. > > Perhaps there was some PCB damage under the exploded cap? We had > a tantalum cap (16uF?) blow on a COMBOARD that was installed in a > crowded BA-11... it looked like someone shot the board with a .22. The > boards on either side were damaged as well, but not perforated. > > Since the OP described blackening, perhaps it might be worth a few > minutes to gently remove the residue (95% Isopropyl (1,2-propanol?)) and > a soft toothbrush should get most of the crud off - then check the traces > and see if there's any visible damage. > > Even if that's not where the problem is, a gentle cleaning should hurt > anything. > > -ethan I cleaned the burnt material off and all I see is the fiberglass weave texture (the pads the cap were on are long gone). The cap was in the general area of the processor (back side of the card) and it looks like atleast one leg of the oscillator that controlled the circuit went to it. While there are a bunch of tracks around the area I don't think any were directly underneath the area that is damaged or it never would have worked at all. The before shot is here: http://home.neo.rr.com/unknownk/images/blown_cap.bmp From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 9 17:47:34 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 23:47:34 +0100 Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: <200609091230280996.04FA8599@10.0.0.252> References: <200609091426.35495.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609091230280996.04FA8599@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <45034486.5030309@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/9/2006 at 2:26 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> I knew of folks that did this all the time. What I remember reading about >> the practice back when was that some folks thought it not to be a good > idea >> because they said that the liner of the floppy's package was supposed to >> "sweep up" any loose particles of oxide or any other contaminants and that > >> reversing the direction of rotation would cut all of this stuff loose. > > I've got a few 8" diskettes that are punched to be "flippies" by the > factory; i.e., there are two index apertures (with a mirror offset) punched > in the jacket and labels on both sides. My TSX+ floppies are like that. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 10 08:13:54 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:13:54 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5D00A9ZOQHM8X6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:59:08 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > >All: > > I looked at the CompuPro disk image on Dave Dunfield's site and it's >for an 8" drive. The defining thing for me is getting a CP/M 2.2 image in >5.25" format. I've found another controller, from CCS (California Computer >Systems) that might work, too. So does anyone have a 5.25" CP/M 80 image for >either of these two boards? > > Thanks. > >Rich All my CCS disks are 8" I'd have to look to see if the controller even did 5.25 it's been so long. I do remember the CCS used a banking scheme that didn't agree with most of my systems. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 10 11:31:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:31:51 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5D00A9ZOQHM8X6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5D00A9ZOQHM8X6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609100931510016.097D51BC@10.0.0.252> On 9/10/2006 at 9:13 AM Allison wrote: >All my CCS disks are 8" I'd have to look to see if the controller even did >5.25 it's been so long. I do remember the CCS used a banking scheme that >didn't agree with most of my systems. Yup, I've got samples for a CCS with 256, 512 and 1024 bytes/sector. All are 48 tpi, MFM. Cheers, Chuck From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Sep 10 11:38:20 2006 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (michaelgreen42 at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:38:20 +0000 Subject: VAXServer 3600 and MicroVax I in Seattle WA. Message-ID: <091020061638.5055.45043F7C000C8C42000013BF2207001641CDCB020A0A9D09040A0E080C0703@comcast.net> I've recently come into possession of a VaxServer 3600 and a MicroVax I that I'm taking offers on. Don't really know anything about them and of course no way to power up. They appear to be in fairly good shape except the MicroVax I has a little damage to the plasic in the front. I also should be comeing into possession of a Tektronics 25" Video Graphics Color Console and a few other things that were described as museum quality. Items are in the Seattle Washington area. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 10 11:44:50 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:44:50 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working In-Reply-To: <000601c6d43f$6f891200$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <4501FB48.3090700@nktelco.net> <43d676aa5a86fb6879ef9bc6feb23772@neurotica.com> <000601c6d43f$6f891200$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200609101244.50772.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 09 September 2006 02:40 pm, Jay West wrote: > Dave wrote.... > > > spare timing generator; I will check when I return home tonight or > > tomorrow. > > Woah! A "spare time generator"??? I want one!!!!!! Yeah, you and me both! Dunno if I could afford to feed it, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Sep 10 11:59:25 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:59:25 -0500 Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator Message-ID: There is a chance that a little bit of carbonized something is providing enough of a load to hamper operation, though. Pull off the cap and see what happens. Also make sure that the board is intact, sometimes bits can get damaged by "blasting caps". From jclang at notms.net Sun Sep 10 13:07:16 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:07:16 -0400 Subject: 2.4 Megabyte Floppies In-Reply-To: <200609090859550626.0439C105@10.0.0.252> References: <20060908170145.14822.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> <06090911261000.05527@bell> <200609090859550626.0439C105@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <06091014071600.05917@bell> On Saturday 09 September 2006 11:59, you wrote: > On 9/9/2006 at 11:26 AM joseph c lang wrote: > >They have a two speed spindle 360/180 rpm and use 500kbit mfm just like > >8" dd disks. 2.4 meg. only works on "microcode" disks though. And they are > > pretty > > >scarce. > > This reminds me of one of the dodges offered early on in the PC to enable a > 5150 or 5160 PC to handle 1.2M diskettes without swapping the controller > card--someone offered a dual-speed drive that spun at 300 and 180 RPM (not > to be confused with the 300/360 dual-speed 1.2M drives). Apparently it > worked, but I wondered how good the S/N ratio at the lower spindle speed > was. For a short time, it was either very expensive or next to impossible > to get a 1.2MB-capable controller for a 5150, since the PC/AT put the FDC > on the HDC board. The gap was quickly filled by outfits like Micro > Solutions and Sysgen (and then the Far East cloners) and the dual-speed > drives vanished. > > Is the coating on the 2.4MB floppies a standard formulation? It would seem > to be a simple matter to format these things if that were true--assuming > the drive supports writing at the lower spindle speed. > > Cheers, > Chuck I suspect the disk coating is not the same as 1.2m disks. The 1.2m disks have a high error rate when used at 2.4m. The coating on the 2.4 meg diskettes is darker than the 1.2 meg disks. It also appears to have a smoother surface. I know that doesn't prove the coating is different, but I think it's a pretty safe bet. joe lang From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 10 09:15:02 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 10:15:02 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5D00HZQRKC8Y27@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: Allison > Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:13:54 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >> >>Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences >> From: "Richard A. Cini" >> Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:59:08 -0400 >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" >> >>All: >> >> I looked at the CompuPro disk image on Dave Dunfield's site and it's >>for an 8" drive. The defining thing for me is getting a CP/M 2.2 image in >>5.25" format. I've found another controller, from CCS (California Computer >>Systems) that might work, too. So does anyone have a 5.25" CP/M 80 image for >>either of these two boards? >> >> Thanks. >> >>Rich > >All my CCS disks are 8" I'd have to look to see if the controller even did >5.25 it's been so long. I do remember the CCS used a banking scheme that >didn't agree with most of my systems. I decided to pull out the CCS system and check. I'd forgotten as it smaller than most s100 crates and it gets tucked away easily. It does do 5.25" though the docs refer to 8" disti media only. The Eprom on mine has the MOSS monitor and boot, IO expects standard CCS. If you have CCS IO you at least have a monitor. Allison From brain at jbrain.com Sun Sep 10 14:17:56 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:17:56 -0500 Subject: Commodore C128/A500 Power bricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450464E4.4090600@jbrain.com> r.stricklin wrote: > > On Sep 9, 2006, at 8:42 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Will a C128 power brick be able to handle an Amiga 500? It looks to >> have a higher rating than the Amiga 600 brick I have (for that >> matter, can it drive an A500). > > No. Bad. > > +-----v-----+ > | 2 3 | > | 5 | > | 1 4 | > +-----------+ > > C=128 A500 > 1 +5VDC Shield > 2 GND +12VDC > 3 9VAC GND > 4 GND +5VDC > 5 9VAC (opposite phase) -12VDC > > > The obvious other thing would then be the lack of a power switch. The > C=128 supply won't work on a Plus/4 either. I can see the issues with pinouts, but with a small rewiring, the C128 PS will work on the +4. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Sep 10 14:34:24 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:34:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Latest find Message-ID: <5587.83.116.48.160.1157916864.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have scored a few nice items this day, a PET 2001-8k with lots of extra's like a lightpen, a sort of digitiser keypad, an large expansion board which contains a compuware floppy interface, a compuware dual floppy drive, about 3 dozen tapes, 4 boxes with floppies and a heavy Centronics printer. Also a little gadget which allows me to select 3 different character roms using a little switch. And the best of all is that the machine works and the keyboard just looks as new :) and that all for a bargain price of just 100 Euro's ($128). From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 10 14:41:53 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5D00A9ZOQHM8X6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5D00A9ZOQHM8X6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20060910123902.N95480@shell.lmi.net> > > I looked at the CompuPro disk image on Dave Dunfield's site and it's > >for an 8" drive. The defining thing for me is getting a CP/M 2.2 image in > >5.25" format. I've found another controller, from CCS (California Computer > >Systems) that might work, too. So does anyone have a 5.25" CP/M 80 image for > >either of these two boards? DSDD 8" should fit just fine on "1.2M" 5.25" On Sun, 10 Sep 2006, Allison wrote: > All my CCS disks are 8" I'd have to look to see if the controller even did > 5.25 it's been so long. I do remember the CCS used a banking scheme that > didn't agree with most of my systems. CCS did have some 5.25" disk formats (both 48tpi and 96tpi) supported. I have no idea whether they ever used them as boot disks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Sep 10 14:45:40 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:45:40 +0100 Subject: Latest find In-Reply-To: <5587.83.116.48.160.1157916864.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 10/9/06 20:34, "Ed Groenenberg" wrote: > > I have scored a few nice items this day, a PET 2001-8k with > lots of extra's like a lightpen, a sort of digitiser keypad, > an large expansion board which contains a compuware floppy > interface, a compuware dual floppy drive, about 3 dozen tapes, > 4 boxes with floppies and a heavy Centronics printer. > Also a little gadget which allows me to select 3 different > character roms using a little switch. > > And the best of all is that the machine works and the keyboard > just looks as new :) and that all for a bargain price of just > 100 Euro's ($128). Nice! I think we all demand pictures :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 10 14:48:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working In-Reply-To: <45031149.8090302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4501FB48.3090700@nktelco.net> <43d676aa5a86fb6879ef9bc6feb23772@neurotica.com> <000601c6d43f$6f891200$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45031149.8090302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20060910124649.O95480@shell.lmi.net> > Jay West wrote: > > Woah! A "spare time generator"??? I want one!!!!!! On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, woodelf wrote: > But you need to supply a *flux Capacitor* .:) > It still amazes me that a 4096 word computer > can have hardware aided floating point. I don't have enough spare time to build one. Besides, don't you need to connect a DC transformer to an AC battery to make it work? From stuart at zen.co.uk Sun Sep 10 14:51:13 2006 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stu Birchall) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:51:13 +0100 Subject: Does anyone in the US have a Hero Jr or Hero 1? In-Reply-To: <450464E4.4090600@jbrain.com> References: <450464E4.4090600@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <76B9F522-646F-432C-8B14-0A646155689C@zen.co.uk> Hi everyone, I'm interested in acquiring one of the Heathkit Hero series robots. Very few made it to the UK and the one's i've seen on ebay never seem to offer worldwide shipping. If any member in the US has one they'd like to sell, please drop me a line. Many thanks, Stu From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 10 14:51:13 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:51:13 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working In-Reply-To: <20060910124649.O95480@shell.lmi.net> References: <4501FB48.3090700@nktelco.net> <43d676aa5a86fb6879ef9bc6feb23772@neurotica.com> <000601c6d43f$6f891200$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45031149.8090302@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060910124649.O95480@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8e35663efeb4b4dae956cf68d3f7f1d8@neurotica.com> On Sep 10, 2006, at 3:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Woah! A "spare time generator"??? I want one!!!!!! > On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, woodelf wrote: >> But you need to supply a *flux Capacitor* .:) >> It still amazes me that a 4096 word computer >> can have hardware aided floating point. > > I don't have enough spare time to build one. > Besides, don't you need to connect a DC transformer to an AC battery to > make it work? In the good old days, that's all it took...Now it takes a cycle-efficient and register-rich x86 processor, along with an honest American businessman. I'll bring the DC transformer and AC battery if you can find either of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Sep 10 15:54:06 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:54:06 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0(composite reply) In-Reply-To: <200609081709.k88H9VQY045593@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609081709.k88H9VQY045593@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 8 Sep, 2006, at 18:09, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Whereabouts are you? About eight miles from Ashford in Kent. Ashford is where the channel tunnel rail link has its last station before France, called Ashford International. I am out in the sticks but I can e-mail maps. My home has a claim to fame, 'The Darling Buds of May' was filmed here and in the surrounding villages. > Of course, the perfect venue, history wise, would be H Block at > Bletchley > Park - the home of the WWII codebreaking Colossus machines and the > world's > first purpose-built computer building but its availability is still in > question..... Yes this would be the perfect venue. Is this the building due to house the computer museum? Roger Holmes. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 10 16:24:01 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:24:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Commodore C128/A500 Power bricks Message-ID: <200609102124.k8ALO1Gb063630@keith.ezwind.net> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > I did some looking and it appears that the A600 > supply is most > powerful of the A500/A600/A1200 supplies! However , > as I got the A600 > (and a pair of unstable A1200's) well after the > A500, this is a > pretty good indication that I have an A500 power > supply somewhere. > The odds are, wherever that is, is also where one of > my *good* Wico > Joysticks is :^) > > Zane > Err... I disagree with you Zane. I just checked both of my A500 PSU's (made in Germay) and my A600 PSU (made in China) and came up with the following: A600 PSU "Lightweight" (Part No. 391029- ) Input: 230-240V ~ 50 Hz 300 mA T1A Output: 5V 3.0A 12V 500mA -12V 100mA A500 PSU "Heavy Brick" (Part No. 312503-02) Input: 240V 50Hz 60W Output: + 5V 4.3A +12V 1.0A -12V 0.1A Going by those figures (on the underside of the PSU's), I'd say the A500 PSU is the most powerful. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Sep 10 16:49:08 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 17:49:08 -0400 Subject: Commodore C128/A500 Power bricks In-Reply-To: <200609101700.k8AH0WEH021819@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060910173314.03040b90@mail.degnanco.net> I have always used them interchangeably, but I never bothered to check. The jack fit, I used it. I *assume* that Commodore would not have made the 128 and A500's power supply ports be the same, unless they believed the associated power supplies were compatible. Otherwise it would be a product support headache. It would be a great advantage from a repair/supply perspective to be able to use the same supply brick. That said, only Commodore would do something as bone-headed as try to save money by using the same power supply jacks/ports with incompatible bricks! Bill D >Will a C128 power brick be able to handle an Amiga 500? It looks to >have a higher rating than the Amiga 600 brick I have (for that >matter, can it drive an A500). > >Spent a lot of time up in storage, found a cable to let me hook my >A500 up the the Commodore 2002 monitor I use with the C64, and >*FINALLY* found a pair of Joysticks. Unfortunately they're Epyx >500JX sticks, and about the only sticks I've used that are worse >might be Commodore's clone of the Atari sticks. Also dug up two more >C64's (I think one is a C64c, do they say they're a "C" anywhere), a >1541 drive, a bunch of carts (including another Epyx Fastload), some >software, and a printer interface. > >I seriously considered bringing the C128 and A500 back (thankfully >found the external drive also today), but decided against the A500 >since I wasn't sure about the powersupply and it was getting to hot >to try to get back to the C128. > > Zane > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 10 17:34:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 23:34:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore C128/A500 Power bricks In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 9, 6 08:42:48 pm Message-ID: > > Will a C128 power brick be able to handle an Amiga 500? It looks to I was under the impression the 2 bricks were totally different. The C128 brick contains a mains-frequency transformer, and outputs +5V (stabilised) and something like 9-0-9 AC (unregulated). The Amiga brick as a switcher, and outputs +5V, +12V, and -12V. I don't even think that +5V and ground are on the saem 2 pins. -tony From tosteve at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 18:10:34 2006 From: tosteve at gmail.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:10:34 -0700 Subject: Sorcerer, AIM-65, SYM-1 for trade. Message-ID: <2e4ce2290609101610y28bdfcb1t1624a93389ee3224@mail.gmail.com> Folks, It has come to my attention that I have a total of six Exidy Sorcerer computers, and just as many Rockwell AIM-65's, and a few SYM-1's. While I like and enjoy them, I would like to trade one or two for a different exciting vintage computer of similar value (i.e. not a Sinclair 1000). Some things of which I am desirous: - GRiD Compass 1101 - Ohio Scientific - Sinclair ZX-80 - Heathkit H11 - Micro Ace - COSMAC VIP - Netronics ELF - Anything else of interest (1970's, S-100, etc...) Let me know- Steve in So. Cal. http://oldcomputers.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 10 14:07:58 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:07:58 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5E00CUB54HHMS5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:31:51 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 9/10/2006 at 9:13 AM Allison wrote: > >>All my CCS disks are 8" I'd have to look to see if the controller even did > >>5.25 it's been so long. I do remember the CCS used a banking scheme that >>didn't agree with most of my systems. > >Yup, I've got samples for a CCS with 256, 512 and 1024 bytes/sector. All >are 48 tpi, MFM. So do I but all mine are 8". However having a H207 dual 8" makes it work as the h207 has a very similar size and look as the CCS crate (long to the back and narrow). As a result I've never fitted 5.25 to the CCS, no need. I've been tempted to fit 3.5" drives to it as it would do 720/780k formats as is off the 5.25 interface. All I'd have to do is tweek the BIOS for that(2S, 80C, 512 format) and maybe tweek the formatter for 80 cylinders and 2 sides. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 10 14:53:43 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:53:43 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5E00LBY78QF199@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:41:53 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > I looked at the CompuPro disk image on Dave Dunfield's site and it's >> >for an 8" drive. The defining thing for me is getting a CP/M 2.2 image in >> >5.25" format. I've found another controller, from CCS (California Computer >> >Systems) that might work, too. So does anyone have a 5.25" CP/M 80 image for >> >either of these two boards? > >DSDD 8" should fit just fine on "1.2M" 5.25" > >On Sun, 10 Sep 2006, Allison wrote: >> All my CCS disks are 8" I'd have to look to see if the controller even did >> 5.25 it's been so long. I do remember the CCS used a banking scheme that >> didn't agree with most of my systems. > >CCS did have some 5.25" disk formats (both 48tpi and 96tpi) supported. >I have no idea whether they ever used them as boot disks. I'd have to read the boot rom source. Who knows it's been years since I read the FDC manual so it could be wired in, the controller does do 5.25. I'd bet a penny there is no reason why not. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 10 14:57:26 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:57:26 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e EAE not working Message-ID: <0J5E00AIF7EXM858@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8/e EAE not working > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:48:55 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Jay West wrote: >> > Woah! A "spare time generator"??? I want one!!!!!! >On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, woodelf wrote: >> But you need to supply a *flux Capacitor* .:) >> It still amazes me that a 4096 word computer >> can have hardware aided floating point. > >I don't have enough spare time to build one. >Besides, don't you need to connect a DC transformer to an AC battery to >make it work? > That might work. I was told a AC battery, A round Tuit and a green eyed lady were required. The problem is getting all three in the same room. Seems they are atomic. ;-) Now feet, do your stuff.. Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Sep 10 16:51:49 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:51:49 +0100 Subject: Commodore C128/A500 Power bricks In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060910173314.03040b90@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060910173314.03040b90@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <450488F5.8020700@gjcp.net> B. Degnan wrote: > said, only Commodore would do something as bone-headed as try to save > money by using the same power supply jacks/ports with incompatible bricks! > Bill D > Amstrad used to make monitors for the PC1512/PC1640 with the same kind of 13-pin connector as STs used for the external floppy as the power connector for the PC itself. Yes, the PSU for the whole outfit was in the monitor. Yes, I had people bring in Atari STs for a new floppy controller and sound chip. Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 10 18:37:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:37:41 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5E00LBY78QF199@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5E00LBY78QF199@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609101637410852.0B033648@10.0.0.252> On 9/10/2006 at 3:53 PM Allison wrote: >>CCS did have some 5.25" disk formats (both 48tpi and 96tpi) supported. >>I have no idea whether they ever used them as boot disks. > >I'd have to read the boot rom source. Who knows it's been years since >I read the FDC manual so it could be wired in, the controller does >do 5.25. I'd bet a penny there is no reason why not. Must be possible as my notes say all 5.25" formatsl reserved 6 cylinders*2 sides for the boot tracks. On the 512 and 1024 bytes-per-sector versions, that's about 60K. On the 256 byte/sector version its about 55K for the boot. Cheers, Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 21:02:09 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:02:09 -0400 Subject: Commodore C128/A500 Power bricks Message-ID: <4affc5e0609101902m42e775cam2de0bd2a50b1eee7@mail.gmail.com> >From my own (accidental) experiments, I found that if a C128 powersupply is used on an A500, the machine will seem to work, but appear to have a flaky floppy and sound. Most frustrating - I though my A500 to be junk material until I used the proper supply. The C128 on the other hand didn't seem to mind the Amiga supply, not surprisingly. Joe. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Sep 10 21:04:55 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 02:04:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: weird C implementations? Message-ID: I was reading the C language spec (C99) and I got to wondring: are/were there C implementations that had no stack, or a rising stack? There's a falling stack in every implementation I've seen, but the spec doesn't require it. Alexey From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Sep 10 22:27:51 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 05:27:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Latest find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25002.83.116.48.160.1157945271.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On 10/9/06 20:34, "Ed Groenenberg" wrote: > >> >> I have scored a few nice items this day, a PET 2001-8k with >> lots of extra's like a lightpen, a sort of digitiser keypad, >> an large expansion board which contains a compuware floppy >> interface, a compuware dual floppy drive, about 3 dozen tapes, >> 4 boxes with floppies and a heavy Centronics printer. >> Also a little gadget which allows me to select 3 different >> character roms using a little switch. >> >> And the best of all is that the machine works and the keyboard >> just looks as new :) and that all for a bargain price of just >> 100 Euro's ($128). > > Nice! I think we all demand pictures :) No problem, but first I go for a short vacation, back in a week :) Ed From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 10 22:47:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:47:30 -0700 Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609102047300150.0BE7E767@10.0.0.252> On 9/11/2006 at 2:04 AM Alexey Toptygin wrote: >I was reading the C language spec (C99) and I got to wondring: are/were >there C implementations that had no stack, or a rising stack? There's a >falling stack in every implementation I've seen, but the spec doesn't >require it. I don't see any practical difference between a stack that increments with a push and one that decrements with one; mostly it seems like a detail. It's pretty much a given that any situation involving a subroutine that can call itself demands a LIFO stack structure of some sort, though. How else might one implement recursive calls otherwise? Cheers, Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Sep 10 23:00:52 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 04:00:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: <200609102047300150.0BE7E767@10.0.0.252> References: <200609102047300150.0BE7E767@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I was reading the C language spec (C99) and I got to wondring: are/were >> there C implementations that had no stack, or a rising stack? There's a >> falling stack in every implementation I've seen, but the spec doesn't >> require it. > > I don't see any practical difference between a stack that increments with a > push and one that decrements with one; mostly it seems like a detail. Right, but I'm curious if anyone did it differently. > It's pretty much a given that any situation involving a subroutine that can > call itself demands a LIFO stack structure of some sort, though. How > else might one implement recursive calls otherwise? That's what I think too, but the spec is pretty clear that having a stack is in no way a requirement (if I'm reading it correctly). Alexey From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 10 23:11:42 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:11:42 -0600 Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4504E1FE.4060002@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > I was reading the C language spec (C99) and I got to wondring: are/were > there C implementations that had no stack, or a rising stack? There's a > falling stack in every implementation I've seen, but the spec doesn't > require it. Most machines that did not have a stack, like a PDP-8 or other larger machines from that era never did have that problem since C was never ported to them to my knowlege. Cross compilers to new-ish micro-controlers may have limitations is the only examples I can think of. The only machine with a rising stack that I know of was a 18 bit CPLD computer design I was planning to build with 4 registers - sp,ac,pc,ix. +offset+, -offset+. Since I am now planning to build a 12/24 bit cpu, I can use a real register for global-static variables. I am taking a RISC idea of a 0 constant register for abs static variables. > Alexey From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 10 23:17:03 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:17:03 -0600 Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: References: <200609102047300150.0BE7E767@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4504E33F.5090903@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > That's what I think too, but the spec is pretty clear that having a > stack is in no way a requirement (if I'm reading it correctly). Well you could use a linked list like LISP.It still functions as stack. Local variables still have to be created on entry and exit how ever from a list of free memory but could be done providing the computer hardware supports Indirect addressing. > Alexey From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 10 23:14:45 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 00:14:45 -0400 Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: <4504E1FE.4060002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4504E1FE.4060002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <635f96695e197b42b975dd503ae39d05@neurotica.com> On Sep 11, 2006, at 12:11 AM, woodelf wrote: >> I was reading the C language spec (C99) and I got to wondring: >> are/were there C implementations that had no stack, or a rising >> stack? There's a falling stack in every implementation I've seen, but >> the spec doesn't require it. > > Most machines that did not have a stack, like a PDP-8 or other larger > machines from that era never did have that problem since C was never > ported to them to my knowlege. Cross compilers to new-ish > micro-controlers > may have limitations is the only examples I can think of. > > The only machine with a rising stack that I know of was a 18 bit CPLD > computer > design I was planning to build with 4 registers - sp,ac,pc,ix. > +offset+, -offset+. > Since I am now planning to build a 12/24 bit cpu, I can use a real > register > for global-static variables. I am taking a RISC idea of a 0 constant > register > for abs static variables. The Intel MCS51 architecture has a rising stack, and there are several C compilers available for it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 11 00:53:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:53:53 -0700 Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: <4504E33F.5090903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200609102047300150.0BE7E767@10.0.0.252> <4504E33F.5090903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200609102253530670.0C5B9E3C@10.0.0.252> On 9/10/2006 at 10:17 PM woodelf wrote: >Well you could use a linked list like LISP.It still functions >as stack. Local variables still have to be created on entry and >exit how ever from a list of free memory but could be done providing >the computer hardware supports Indirect addressing. Many systems have neither indirect addressing nor hardware stacks. That's no bar to stacks being implemented in software. Linked lists have been used on many implementations (look at the standard S/360 calling sequence, where each subroutine provides local storage for the caller's registers). But where recursion comes into the picture, static saveareas and static locals go out the window. This can get to be a real problem on older systems where the return address for whatever the machine implements as a call stores the return address in the form of an unconditional jump in memory near the entry point of the called subroutine (yes, I know it's self-modifying code, but this was a common way to do things). The called routine then has to grab the return address and store in somewhere that functions as a LIFO stack. Some machines have more than one stack; one stack stores return addresses; the other local data. It can get to be pretty ugly doing recursion in languages that make no provision for it, such as FORTRAN IV, but it's still possible, using arrays to store instance-local data and replacing CALLS with ASSIGNed GOTO/GOTO pairs. Somewhere while programming this kind of spaghetti code, you being to ask yourself if iteration might not be easier. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Sep 11 05:18:04 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 05:18:04 -0500 Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200609110921.k8B9Lpwx017379@hosting.monisys.ca> > I was reading the C language spec (C99) and I got to wondring: are/were > there C implementations that had no stack, or a rising stack? There's a > falling stack in every implementation I've seen, but the spec doesn't > require it. I've done C toolsets for many different architectures including the 8051 which has a hardware stack that rises. In cases where there is no hardware stack defined on the processor, a C implementation will typically simply define one - use a general purpose addressing register (or even a memory location) as a stack pointer for a "homemade stack" - The 8051 provides a good example of this as well, the hardware stack addresses only the 128 bytes of internal RAM, not all of which is usually available for a general purpose stack, so larger "memory models" usually define another stack in external memory. The ARM is another example, most software assumes R13 as a stack pointer, however this is simply a matter of convention and is not tied to hardware capabilities of that register. A stack (hardware or software) is the simplest way to provide "auto" memory so most C implementations will provide one on one form or another. Among embedded toolsets for tiny processor, often without the means to address the stack efficiently (the 8051 is a prime example of this as well), you will often find a feature called "compiled stack" - the compiler builds a call-tree (at compile time), and statically allocates memory for the locals and other "auto" storage. Depending on the CPU, this can allow the generation of MUCH more efficient code, and retains the benefit that "auto" memory can be reused by different functions which are not active at the same time (ie: the total amount of memory allocated is less than the total sizes of all local variables etc. - if you simply declared "statics", more memory would be required). Obviously there are limitations, the most obvious one being no recursive loops... Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Mon Sep 11 09:17:35 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:17:35 +0200 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor.ath.cx, and SC/MP emulators In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20060904220145.04ae7190@pop3.paradise.net.nz> References: <6.1.2.0.1.20060904220145.04ae7190@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <45056FFF.10000@ais.fraunhofer.de> Tony Wills schrieb: > Hi everyone, > > I have been looking for Sipke de Wal's SC/MP emulator and of course > found the note about his death in 2004 > (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2004-May/041480.html). > > Looking at the fragments of his website still available in the > internet archive and on Google, I see he had a lot of interesting > pages and downloads many relating to old computers and processors. > There are still many sites on the internet that link to his website > that hasn't existed for 2 years now. > > It seems a pity that all that work has now disappeared when the > storage requirements and bandwidth, to maintain such a site, are quite > modest. I would be happy to host a copy of his site if it could be > reconstructed. I've reconstructed his SC/MP webpage (but still don't > have a copy of his emulator). > > So a number of questions: > - Did anyone here download anything from his site that they've still > got (webpages or files) ? > - Does anyone have contact with his familiy ? > - Did anyone know Sipke well enough to know whether he would approve > of the resurection of his website? > > Any help appreciated. > > Tony. Hi, I think I have the SC/MP emulator of Sipke (scmp09.zip), and maybe also several other downloads from xgistor (unstructured, didn't copy everything). Do you want it? I could also look for other files I might have if you tell me file names. Regards Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 11 07:02:37 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:02:37 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5F00K37G3B0UMB@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:37:41 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 9/10/2006 at 3:53 PM Allison wrote: > >>>CCS did have some 5.25" disk formats (both 48tpi and 96tpi) supported. >>>I have no idea whether they ever used them as boot disks. >> >>I'd have to read the boot rom source. Who knows it's been years since >>I read the FDC manual so it could be wired in, the controller does >>do 5.25. I'd bet a penny there is no reason why not. > >Must be possible as my notes say all 5.25" formatsl reserved 6 cylinders*2 >sides for the boot tracks. On the 512 and 1024 bytes-per-sector versions, >that's about 60K. On the 256 byte/sector version its about 55K for the >boot. CP/M boot image is CCP (2k), Bdos(3.5k) and bios (.5k->3.5k), assuming a large bios the whole show is 9k. IF we add the two secondary boot sectors (assume 128byte sectors) to that it's 9.25k. Likely, even that is oversized. Standard SSSD 8" is two tracks reserved for boot(6656bytes!). Looked at the manual, the boot is generic enough that it grabs the first two sectors and jumps to that code. Sequence is Rom boot, seconday boot using the rom read/write routines and the seconday boot loads the whole show. That code is CCBOOT. The CP/M image once loaded jumps to BIOS Coldboot and that initializes everything and starts the show. The manual says two tracks on 8" and 3 tracks on 5.25 with track 00 being 128 byte single density only. NOTE the manual says tracks not cylinders. FYI: the standard rom has a MOSS monitor (console is 8250 at 40h) and also carries read write primitives and boot. If you had a board with 8250 serial on it that could be configured for address 40h that board would be easier to boot on a system without a boot disk in hand. Allison From rhammink at delft.water.slb.com Mon Sep 11 07:39:33 2006 From: rhammink at delft.water.slb.com (Ric-Paul Hammink) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:39:33 +0200 Subject: Bigger hard disk on Toshiba 4010CDT Message-ID: Hi, Sorry to bother you, but after searching the web I found your posting (from 2004...). Since I want to upgrade the HD in my Toshiba as well, I wondered if you ever got it to work? Thanks for any info you can give me. Ric-Paul Hammink (Netherlands, also 4010CDT w/W95 and 96Mb) PS: background info: I cannot even get it to recognize a second identical 4.327Gb Toshiba hard-drive... (one partition FAT32), I just formatted it to 2x2Gb in FAT to see if it will recognize it now. Your original posting: Does anybody know how to get a Toshiba 4010CDT to accept a larger hard disk. It comes with 4 GB but when I want to work with three operating systems (MSDOS; modern Windows and LINUX) this will be a problem if I also want to include applications! Conversely, I am satisfied with the computer otherwise, although it is somewhat older by now, and would like to upgrade instead of retiring it or maintaining two Laptops in order to have space for the bigger operating systems. I did look at Toshiba's site but found nothing except some information that such support is NOT provided by them! They suggest an alternative company but this company does not show any sign of supporting my model. I also would be happier to find a way to alter the BIOS and buy a HDD locally, though I did find one company offering hard disks which they suggest will work with the 4010CDT, while giving no clue that they in some way deal with the BIOS problem. (In any case, it would mean importing the HDD, with a bunch of associated problems, especially if something goes wrong. I have my fill of that trouble!) Thanks to anyone able to help. Bob Answer from Andrew: On Thu, 2004-02-19 at 07:17, R. Mueller wrote: > Does anybody know how to get a Toshiba 4010CDT to accept a larger hard > disk. > I also > would be happier to find a way to alter the BIOS and buy a HDD locally, > though I did find one company offering hard disks which they suggest will > work with the 4010CDT, while giving no clue that they in some way deal with > the BIOS problem. www.shoptoshiba.com indicates that Toshiba has up to a 60 Gigabyte drive upgrade that is compatible with the Satellite 4010CDT. I got there from a link on www.csd.toshiba.com , in case you were interested... So as long as you got your BIOS updated to 8.20 (found at ) you should be ok with going to your local computer store and getting a 2.5 inch hard drive up to 60 GB in capacity, and putting it into the little "carrier" thingamabob the original drive came in, and there you go... They want $379 for the 60 GB one, though... It comes with a 3 year warranty, so it might be ok... ENU (www.enuinc.com) in Portland has 20, 30, 40 and 60 GB laptop drives in stock, from $106 to $175... Before purchasing, you should get the original drive out of the laptop, open the carrier, and see where the mounting screws that mount the drive to the carrier are located. OLDER ones have the mounting holes in the corners of the drive, newer ones have them in towards the middle of the sides of the drives. Yours is probably a newer one. TTFN Andrew From skrishna at ncsu.edu Mon Sep 11 09:00:23 2006 From: skrishna at ncsu.edu (Shreekrishna) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:00:23 -0400 Subject: old floppy disk-1987-----urgent In-Reply-To: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <45056BF7.3080303@ncsu.edu> Dear All, some of the data is stored in the old floppy disk of 1987 period. The computer is not working. I need to get those data from the floppy disk. Can anyone help me in this regard. If I can the mail the floppy disc, then can anyone help me retrieve the data. Please reply. thanks and regards shree. I have a HP- PDP--11/64 machine which my professor was using back in 1987. We want to convert some data from that machine to the new format( .xls or .txt) . Do any of you have idea to convert the data from that machine to the recent one. The data is stored in the hard disc of that computer. So please suggest me how to convert the data. Thanks in advance. Shree. From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Sep 11 10:28:55 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060911152855.A57DB58112@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by David Griffith > > On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Is there any problem with punching the left side of a floppy so you > > can write to the other side of a floppy in a 1541 drive? > > Nope. Lots of people did that. You used to be able to buy special hole > punches for making a square notch exactly where it needs to be. > I have even used scissors in a pinch. You just need another floppy to help line up the notch. Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 10:38:32 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:38:32 -0400 Subject: old floppy disk-1987-----urgent In-Reply-To: <45056BF7.3080303@ncsu.edu> References: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> <45056BF7.3080303@ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <450582F8.7040809@gmail.com> Shreekrishna wrote: > Dear All, > some of the data is stored in the old floppy disk of 1987 period. The > computer is not working. I need to get those data from the floppy disk. > Can anyone help me in this regard. If I can the mail the floppy disc, > then can anyone help me retrieve the data. Please reply. > thanks and regards You're going to have to be *much* more specific. Filesystem? Physical form factor? Sector configuration? Platform? Data type? Peace... Sridhar From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Sep 11 10:44:49 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 and making doublesided floppies In-Reply-To: <20060911152855.A57DB58112@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060911152855.A57DB58112@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Sep 2006, Bryan Pope wrote: >> On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> Is there any problem with punching the left side of a floppy so you >>> can write to the other side of a floppy in a 1541 drive? >> >> Nope. Lots of people did that. You used to be able to buy special hole >> punches for making a square notch exactly where it needs to be. >> > > I have even used scissors in a pinch. You just need another floppy to > help line up the notch. I used to do the same thing with a narrow-bladed Xacto knife. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 11 11:19:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:19:56 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5F00K37G3B0UMB@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5F00K37G3B0UMB@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609110919560073.0E98C603@10.0.0.252> On 9/11/2006 at 8:02 AM Allison wrote: >The manual says two tracks on 8" and 3 tracks on 5.25 with track 00 being >128 byte single density only. NOTE the manual says tracks not cylinders. All I can relate to you is the number of cylinders before the directory. What CCS uses the extras for is anyone's guess. My 8" CCS sample is DS MFM and reserves 4 cylinders for boot. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 11 11:25:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:25:24 -0700 Subject: old floppy disk-1987-----urgent In-Reply-To: <45056BF7.3080303@ncsu.edu> References: <200609041331.k84DVrP01022@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> <45056BF7.3080303@ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <200609110925240125.0E9DC777@10.0.0.252> Shree, there are two messages in your inquiry. One says that you need to read a floppy; the second says that you need to read the hard disk from an 11/64. Can you be a little more specific? Cheers, Chuck On 9/11/2006 at 10:00 AM Shreekrishna wrote: >Dear All, >some of the data is stored in the old floppy disk of 1987 period. The >computer is not working. I need to get those data from the floppy disk. >Can anyone help me in this regard. If I can the mail the floppy disc, >then can anyone help me retrieve the data. Please reply. >thanks and regards >shree. >I have a HP- PDP--11/64 machine which my professor was using back in >1987. We want to convert some data from that machine to the new format( >.xls or .txt) . Do any of you have idea to convert the data from that >machine to the recent one. >The data is stored in the hard disc of that computer. So please suggest >me how to convert the data. >Thanks in advance. > >Shree. From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Sep 11 11:41:45 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:41:45 -0400 Subject: old floppy disk-1987-----urgent In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:25:24 PDT." <200609110925240125.0E9DC777@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609111641.k8BGfj6W031391@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >Shree, there are two messages in your inquiry. One says that you need to >read a floppy; the second says that you need to read the hard disk from an >11/64. Can you be a little more specific? I think he's got an 8" floppy. I'm going to guess it's from an RX01 and mostly likely RT11. (i'll buy lunch if I'm wrong :-) If anyone in North or South Carolina has a working RX01/RX02 I bet they can help him out. I can read it but I have to believe someone else is closer. -brad From cannings at earthlink.net Mon Sep 11 12:20:55 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:20:55 -0700 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? References: <001801c6cbc6$66047890$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Message-ID: <004301c6d5c6$a43f71a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> >Hello All. I'm new to this list and would like some advice on learning the inner workings of vintage computers. I have some basic experience with electronics and >some simple measurement tools (multimeter, logic probe). So far, I've repaired a couple of older machines (Kaypro's, Compaq portables) but this has amounted >to swapping dead hard or floppy drives, replacing dead batteries, etc. So here are my questions: (1) Is there a "trainer" system good for learning about >microcomputer design and operation, and (2) would an oscilloscope be useful for this purpose, and if so, what Mhz rating is needed to work on older machines? >I've noticed the price is directly proportional to this number! Thanks, John R. John, The cheapest solution ( free !! ) I can think of is a Heathkit ET3400 emulator ! If you cannot find one online, contact me direct ( offlist ) and I'll E-mail it to you. It's a pretty decent emulator. The graphics are okay. This is for the 6800 microprocessor. It's a great teaching aid and the price is right... Best regards, Steven Canning From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 12:28:52 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:28:52 -0700 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: <004301c6d5c6$a43f71a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <001801c6cbc6$66047890$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> <004301c6d5c6$a43f71a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: I think the average price of a HP 5036 on eBay is about $80 to $100. I have sold several over the last few years and never got over $110 for one. Paxton Astoria, Oregon USA From RMeenaks at olf.com Mon Sep 11 14:49:22 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:49:22 -0400 Subject: Update Turbo Compilers Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557532653@cpexchange.olf.com> http://www.turboexplorer.com/ Cheers, Ram From trag at io.com Mon Sep 11 17:02:34 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 17:02:34 -0500 Subject: Broken Mac Accelerator In-Reply-To: <200609090920.k899KIsr007299@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609090920.k899KIsr007299@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 22:41:09 -0400 >From: "Teo Zenios" >My latest acquisition came in today, a Mac IIci, that I wanted to >use as an OS 6.08 machine > with a Daystar Turbo 040 (68040/33) accelerator. Anyway after >cleaning up the system and > I took the card out and notice there was a capacitor missing on the >back with a nasty looking > black burn mark. So I started looking around inside for the burn >metal part and notice I did not > smell or see smoke or little capacitor parts (its a surface mount >with no numbers on it) >So what I want to know is how the thing functioned at all without >the cap (burnt carbon acted > as a capacitor in some way)? and what caused it to stop working. It looks as if that cap (C54) ties the upper righthand pin of the oscillator, which I think is pin 14 or Vdd. As someone else wrote, it is probably just a decoupling cap, but it may be hard to tell for certain as I believe that the Daystar boards have more than four layers, which means that there are traces we cannot view. >If anybody have an original Daystar Turbo 040 33Mhz card with the >cache on a separate board > could you let me know (if possible) what value C54 s supposed to >be? The cap looks to be tied > into one or two legs of the oscillator chip that controls the CPU >(Ecliptek EC1100 16.667Mhz > 93-10). There are no markings on C54. It looks just like the two caps next to (below) it, but there are no characters which would betray a value. I don't have a capacitance meter. Jeff Walther From reevejd at mchsi.com Mon Sep 11 17:20:45 2006 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 17:20:45 -0500 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? References: <001801c6cbc6$66047890$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> <004301c6d5c6$a43f71a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <005101c6d5f0$87e580b0$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Thanks for the advice guys. I've gotten hold of an oscilloscope and am planning to plumb the depths of my collection of old computers. I haven't fried anything yet... Cheers, John R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Canning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 12:20 PM Subject: Re: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? > > >>Hello All. I'm new to this list and would like some advice on learning >>the > inner workings of vintage computers. I have some basic experience with > electronics and >some simple measurement tools (multimeter, logic probe). > So far, I've repaired a couple of older machines (Kaypro's, Compaq > portables) but this has amounted >to swapping dead hard or floppy drives, > replacing dead batteries, etc. So here are my questions: (1) Is there a > "trainer" system good for learning about >microcomputer design and > operation, and (2) would an oscilloscope be useful for this purpose, and > if > so, what Mhz rating is needed to work on older machines? >I've noticed > the > price is directly proportional to this number! Thanks, John R. > > John, > > The cheapest solution ( free !! ) I can think of is a Heathkit ET3400 > emulator ! If you cannot find one online, contact me direct ( offlist ) > and > I'll E-mail it to you. It's a pretty decent emulator. The graphics are > okay. > This is for the 6800 microprocessor. It's a great teaching aid and the > price > is right... > > Best regards, Steven Canning > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 11 17:37:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 23:37:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: <004301c6d5c6$a43f71a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> from "Steven Canning" at Sep 11, 6 10:20:55 am Message-ID: > > The cheapest solution ( free !! ) I can think of is a Heathkit ET3400 > emulator ! If you cannot find one online, contact me direct ( offlist ) and > I'll E-mail it to you. It's a pretty decent emulator. The graphics are okay. > This is for the 6800 microprocessor. It's a great teaching aid and the price > is right... Maybe, but there is one heck of a difference between working on an emulator and using (and modifying, interfacing, etc) the real hardware. And the OP wants to learn about hardware, I believe. -tony From kth at srv.net Mon Sep 11 12:30:11 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:30:11 -0600 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: <005101c6d5f0$87e580b0$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> References: <001801c6cbc6$66047890$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> <004301c6d5c6$a43f71a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> <005101c6d5f0$87e580b0$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Message-ID: <45059D23.2090609@srv.net> John D. Reeve wrote: > Thanks for the advice guys. I've gotten hold of an oscilloscope and > am planning to plumb the depths of my collection of old computers. > I haven't fried anything yet... Cheers, John R. Don't worry, you will... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 11 18:23:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:23:49 -0700 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609111623490375.101CD98E@10.0.0.252> On 9/11/2006 at 11:37 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Maybe, but there is one heck of a difference between working on an >emulator and using (and modifying, interfacing, etc) the real hardware. >And the OP wants to learn about hardware, I believe. Why not start with a "mostly on one chip" type of setup, say a Z8 or 8051 and work from there? There are plenty of small circuits published using them and, as the student's knowledge grows, other bits can be added on. Perhaps one of the inexpensive boards from here might be a good start: http://www.futurlec.com/DevelopmentBoards.shtml Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 11 18:30:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:30:38 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5F00K37G3B0UMB@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5F00K37G3B0UMB@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609111630380443.10231766@10.0.0.252> I apologize for a bit of forgetfulness that I've discovered. The CCS 5.25" formats do indeed reserve 3 cylinders (6 tracks) for boot and the 8" does use 2 cylinders/4 tracks. These were 20-old notes and I'd forgotten that I long ago changed the way I thought about boot information (in my current data, it's all noted in terms of sector count+density+interleave+skew). Sometimes one forgets. Cheers, Chuck From reevejd at mchsi.com Mon Sep 11 19:24:31 2006 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:24:31 -0500 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? References: <200609111623490375.101CD98E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <009601c6d601$d1ea6a70$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Hi Guys. By the way, I've been working through the BASIC Stamp learning modules. Is that what you have in mind? Lots of good information on simple circuits and interfacing a microcontroller to various devices, but surprisingly little about how the stamp actually does its magic. John R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:23 PM Subject: Re: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? > On 9/11/2006 at 11:37 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>Maybe, but there is one heck of a difference between working on an >>emulator and using (and modifying, interfacing, etc) the real hardware. >>And the OP wants to learn about hardware, I believe. > > Why not start with a "mostly on one chip" type of setup, say a Z8 or 8051 > and work from there? There are plenty of small circuits published using > them and, as the student's knowledge grows, other bits can be added on. > > Perhaps one of the inexpensive boards from here might be a good start: > > http://www.futurlec.com/DevelopmentBoards.shtml > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From segin2005 at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 20:01:02 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:02 -0400 Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: <635f96695e197b42b975dd503ae39d05@neurotica.com> References: <4504E1FE.4060002@jetnet.ab.ca> <635f96695e197b42b975dd503ae39d05@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <450606CE.5030708@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 11, 2006, at 12:11 AM, woodelf wrote: >>> I was reading the C language spec (C99) and I got to wondring: >>> are/were there C implementations that had no stack, or a rising >>> stack? There's a falling stack in every implementation I've seen, but >>> the spec doesn't require it. >> >> Most machines that did not have a stack, like a PDP-8 or other larger >> machines from that era never did have that problem since C was never >> ported to them to my knowlege. Cross compilers to new-ish >> micro-controlers >> may have limitations is the only examples I can think of. >> >> The only machine with a rising stack that I know of was a 18 bit CPLD >> computer >> design I was planning to build with 4 registers - sp,ac,pc,ix. >> +offset+, -offset+. >> Since I am now planning to build a 12/24 bit cpu, I can use a real >> register >> for global-static variables. I am taking a RISC idea of a 0 constant >> register >> for abs static variables. > > > The Intel MCS51 architecture has a rising stack, and there are several > C compilers available for it. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > I always thought that C implementations would grow the stack in whatever direction that the associated CPU opcode would grow it in. It only seems logical, as it's efficent. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 20:01:02 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:02 -0400 Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: <635f96695e197b42b975dd503ae39d05@neurotica.com> References: <4504E1FE.4060002@jetnet.ab.ca> <635f96695e197b42b975dd503ae39d05@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <450606CE.5030708@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 11, 2006, at 12:11 AM, woodelf wrote: >>> I was reading the C language spec (C99) and I got to wondring: >>> are/were there C implementations that had no stack, or a rising >>> stack? There's a falling stack in every implementation I've seen, but >>> the spec doesn't require it. >> >> Most machines that did not have a stack, like a PDP-8 or other larger >> machines from that era never did have that problem since C was never >> ported to them to my knowlege. Cross compilers to new-ish >> micro-controlers >> may have limitations is the only examples I can think of. >> >> The only machine with a rising stack that I know of was a 18 bit CPLD >> computer >> design I was planning to build with 4 registers - sp,ac,pc,ix. >> +offset+, -offset+. >> Since I am now planning to build a 12/24 bit cpu, I can use a real >> register >> for global-static variables. I am taking a RISC idea of a 0 constant >> register >> for abs static variables. > > > The Intel MCS51 architecture has a rising stack, and there are several > C compilers available for it. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > I always thought that C implementations would grow the stack in whatever direction that the associated CPU opcode would grow it in. It only seems logical, as it's efficent. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 11 20:32:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:32:02 -0700 Subject: weird C implementations? In-Reply-To: <450606CE.5030708@gmail.com> References: <4504E1FE.4060002@jetnet.ab.ca> <635f96695e197b42b975dd503ae39d05@neurotica.com> <450606CE.5030708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200609111832020179.10923A81@10.0.0.252> On 9/11/2006 at 9:01 PM Segin wrote: >I always thought that C implementations would grow the stack in whatever > direction that the associated CPU opcode would grow it in. It only >seems logical, as it's efficent. Many CPUs don't have stacks per se, or the stack has limitations (e.g. rigidly fixed size and location), so one uses whatever one has at hand. But whether a stack pointer increments or decrements on a push is immaterial. Does UCSD P-code specify a stack direction? If so, does it matter? Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 11 23:09:05 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bad keys on terminals Message-ID: So, I'm fooling around with my Tandy PT-210 printing terminal again. Upon disassembly, these switches are revealed to have rubber domes inside that electrically connect two isolated semicircles by pressing a circle of conductive rubber. Wiping with alcohol and blowing them out gives a closed resistance of around 300 ohms, which is good enough to trigger the keyboard circuitry. I've come to one that refuses to work at all, regardless of how I clean it. So, I have two choices: 1) Glue tiny discs of aluminum to the bottoms of the rubber domes. A preliminary test of this using water as "glue" suggests this won't work for long. 2) Find some switches with the same footprint, height, and cross-shaped acutator. The first two seem easy to get. Mouser lists absolutely no switches with a cross top. So, has anyone here any pointers? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 12 05:31:07 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 05:31:07 -0500 Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200609120934.k8C9Ypkm016722@mail3.magma.ca> > Upon disassembly, these switches are revealed to have rubber domes inside > that electrically connect two isolated semicircles by pressing a circle of > conductive rubber. ... I've come to one that refuses to work at all, > regardless of how I clean it. ... > 1) Glue tiny discs of aluminum to the bottoms of the rubber domes. A > preliminary test of this using water as "glue" suggests this won't work > for long. I fixed one of my PET 8032 keyboards in a similar manner - the keyboard uses plungers to push circles of conductive rubber against pairs of interleaved "fingers" etched onto the board - this particular PET had been sitting a LONG time and the conductive rubber had increased in resistance so much that almost all the keys did not work at all - some of them would work if you really pushed down, but all were much higher resistance than I measured on other PET keyboards - cleaning etc. made no difference. So what I ended up doing was cutting small squares of tinfoil and using bits of tape, I fixed one over each set of "fingers" etched on the board - then bent them up slightly so that they did not connect unless pushed down. I fastened them to the board instead of the plungers for several reasons: - Taping them to the board was easier than gluing them to plungers, and less risk of contamination on the contact from glue. - By fastening them to the board they would not "move around" with the motion of the plungers - preventing undue wear from the metal on metal (don't know if this would really be an issue or not). - Completely reversable - no glue, no holes or other modifications. The only thing I might have to do to remove it would be to clean some tape residue from the board. It worked very well, and the keyboard is going strong a couple of years later. I probably would look for a better solution if this were an "everyday" machine, however it's mostly used for the occational demonstration etc.so the keyboard does not see a whole lot of use. Dave BTW: I have similar vintage PETs with identical keyboards in which the conductive rubber is fine ... anyone know what conditions accelerate the deterioration of conductive rubber? -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 12 05:18:56 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 06:18:56 -0400 Subject: Early/mid-1980s "Portable Computer" magazine? Message-ID: <002f01c6d654$db611f10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Does anyone have issues of "Portable Computer" magazine from the early-mid 1980s? - Evan From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Tue Sep 12 06:37:39 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:37:39 +0100 Subject: VCF UK (was:Re: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0) Message-ID: <11c909eb0609120437m17e0f57en93a6bf381c3baaa0@mail.gmail.com> I've changed the subject line to see if it grabs anyone's attention :) Anyone in the UK have experience of setting up a similar idea? I know people > on the Sinclair QL mailing list who put up yearly bashes in church halls > and No experience at all - though I'd also be happy to help. It strikes me that having someone on board who's done similar size events would be a big advantage. Can anyone comment on how much effort and how many bodies it's taken to organize a small(ish) event like this? >Of course, the perfect venue, history wise, would be H Block at Bletchley >Park - the home of the WWII codebreaking Colossus machines and the world's >first purpose-built computer building but its availability is still in >question..... What about Science & Industry museum in Manchester? They've got some early Manchester Uni hardware, haven't they? -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr > > From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 12 07:15:34 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:15:34 -0400 Subject: VCF UK (was:Re: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0) In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0609120437m17e0f57en93a6bf381c3baaa0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003901c6d665$266b6050$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> Can anyone comment on how much effort and how many bodies it's taken to organize a small(ish) event like this? Glad to! I ran VCF East 3.0 in May, by default of heading the sponsoring user group here in New Jersey. Sellam cautioned me that even though our local UG had done a few small exhibits here and there, and even though I'd participated in three prior VCFs, that's all completely different from actually running one. Just when I thought I was prepared, and even with Sellam's on-site help, there were still many details that I didn't plan for. The best advice I can give is to starting making the plans as early as possible, be very proactive about getting exhibitors and speakers, and advertise the event more than you think you need to. It's also very important that you attend one or more VCFs before organizing one so you know how the finished product is supposed to look. (Imagine trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle without a picture of it finished?) Having done all of that, our edition turned out pretty well (100+ paid attendees, nearly 20 exhibitors, five great guest speakers.) So don't let the hard work scare you off: it's worth it when you finally see the VCF happening and everyone's having fun. Beside myself, it took a team of about 10 very dedicated volunteers (parking, tickets, food, exhibit set-up, schepping, t-shirts, advertising, budget, power, etc.) After about six months (mid-November, just after the California VCF), it will be time for us to start planning East 4.0 already. Bigger and better = more work and time needed! Hans Franke and Patrick Finnegan do the VCF Europa and VCF Midwest editions, respectively. Perhaps they'll chime in as well. - Evan (PS -- anyone who's doing a VCF and wants more insight is welcome to contact me OFF-LIST.) From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Sep 12 07:49:25 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:49:25 +0100 Subject: VCF UK (was:Re: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0) In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0609120437m17e0f57en93a6bf381c3baaa0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001c6d669$e0edaa60$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > What about Science & Industry museum in Manchester? They've got some early > Manchester Uni hardware, haven't they? > They may have (I believe they have the replica of "Baby"); but, as I discovered on Friday, they have absolutely none of the computing history on normal public display - this is a disgrace! Andy From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 12 08:01:38 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:01:38 -0400 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: <200609111623490375.101CD98E@10.0.0.252> References: <200609111623490375.101CD98E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sep 11, 2006, at 7:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Maybe, but there is one heck of a difference between working on an >> emulator and using (and modifying, interfacing, etc) the real >> hardware. >> And the OP wants to learn about hardware, I believe. > > Why not start with a "mostly on one chip" type of setup, say a Z8 or > 8051 > and work from there? There are plenty of small circuits published > using > them and, as the student's knowledge grows, other bits can be added on. This is a good idea. One can put together, using wire-wrap or point-to-point soldering, an 8752-based machine in an hour or two. Five chips, only one of which is a 40-pinner. Burn a copy of the well-known 8052AH-BASIC into it and you've got yourself quite a neat little machine. The BASIC interpreter has excellent I/O capability, interrupt support, and even floating-point math. If anyone wants to do this but lacks the stuff, I have 8752 chips and the means to program them. And the BASIC interpreter, of course. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Sep 12 08:34:47 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:34:47 +0200 Subject: VCF UK (was:Re: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0) In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0609120437m17e0f57en93a6bf381c3baaa0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4506D397.31046.9654A6BD@localhost> Am 12 Sep 2006 12:37 meinte Pete Edwards: > I've changed the subject line to see if it grabs anyone's attention :) > Anyone in the UK have experience of setting up a similar idea? I know people > > on the Sinclair QL mailing list who put up yearly bashes in church halls > > and > No experience at all - though I'd also be happy to help. It strikes me that > having someone on board who's done similar size events would be a big > advantage. > Can anyone comment on how much effort and how many bodies it's taken to > organize a small(ish) event like this? Get an early start - at least 6 Month ahead for the first installment. Get at least 2-3 People helping to advertise, and maybe one for other preperations. At the event you'll need between 6-10 _dedicated_ people helping - and one of it should have serious experience with such an event (if it's not you). In general it would be great to have at least attended one or two VCF as regular visitor, and have been a helper (for the whole time) to another VCF, preferable the California or Munich event - desprite the great work done at VCF-MW and VCF-East, due their size, the larger ones give a wider range of insight what to think about. Beside that, be prepared to give up all spare time for at least 2 month prior to VCF-GB Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 12 09:57:35 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:57:35 +0200 Subject: 13W3 adapters In-Reply-To: <45015EAB.2040100@dakotacom.net> References: <45007BCA.7060202@dakotacom.net> <20060908111107.0624c3d4@SirToby.dinner41.de> <45015EAB.2040100@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060912165735.2816bc34@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 05:14:35 -0700 Don wrote: > I dont know if I'd want to run video down 30 feet of wire :> No problem with the right cable. Those Sun 13W3 extenders are of quite good quality. At the moment I use a BNC extender cable build out of RG59. It drives a CRT that runs at 1408x1056 with 89 Hz Vsync. I have a Sun 13W3 to 4 x BNC cable of 20 or 25 m length somewhere... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 12 12:54:21 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 10:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 ASM? Message-ID: <200609121754.k8CHsLGJ017229@onyx.spiritone.com> What do people recommend for an Assembler on the Commodore 64? I'm wanting to play around with one, and am not sure what to use. I downloaded "Turbo Macro Pro '05", but have yet to figure it out how to actually do anything with it. As I understand it, I'm supposed to start it with the following: LOAD"TMP 1.1/S.",8 SYS 8*4096 Or instead of the SYS command I can use the Fastload cart to jump to $8000. However, in both cases, I get the same result, a READY prompt, and seem to still be in BASIC. Zane From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Sep 12 13:07:28 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:07:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609121754.k8CHsLGJ017229@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > What do people recommend for an Assembler on the Commodore 64? I'm wanting > to play around with one, and am not sure what to use. I downloaded "Turbo > Macro Pro '05", but have yet to figure it out how to actually do anything > with it. As I understand it, I'm supposed to start it with the following: > > LOAD"TMP 1.1/S.",8 > SYS 8*4096 > > Or instead of the SYS command I can use the Fastload cart to jump to $8000. > However, in both cases, I get the same result, a READY prompt, and seem to > still be in BASIC. Hey Zane; Try: LOAD"TMP 1.1/S.",8,1 The ,1 will tell BASIC to load the code to the address it was saved from - rather than at the bottom of memory ($0801, like you are here). That'll probably help; JP From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 12 14:18:58 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:18:58 +0000 Subject: VCF UK (was:Re: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0) In-Reply-To: <4506D397.31046.9654A6BD@localhost> References: <4506D397.31046.9654A6BD@localhost> Message-ID: <45070822.5020602@yahoo.co.uk> Hans Franke wrote: > In general it would be great to have at least attended one or two VCF as > regular visitor, and have been a helper (for the whole time) to another > VCF, preferable the California or Munich event Surely every VCF event is pretty unique? Isn't it more important that whoever organises it has been to other shows of a similar size where the displays are mainly provided by private enthusiasts? Just a thought anyway - obviously there are some requirements of a VCF that may not be at other shows (adequate power, building cooling etc.), but I'd be surprised if the bulk of the experience can't be drawn from other types of show too? cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 12 14:31:26 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609121754.k8CHsLGJ017229@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 12, 6 10:54:21 am" Message-ID: <200609121931.k8CJVQ3I016832@floodgap.com> > What do people recommend for an Assembler on the Commodore 64? I'm wanting > to play around with one, and am not sure what to use. I like TurboAssembler, affectionately christened "TurboAss." There are about a million variants with this hack or that hack added in, but it is widely available and free. If you want to do cross-assembling, I shall now make a shameless plug and encourage you to try xa: http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/xa/ -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, Windows is not a virus. Viruses actually do something. ----------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 12 14:43:00 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 07:43:00 +1200 Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609121931.k8CJVQ3I016832@floodgap.com> References: <200609121754.k8CHsLGJ017229@onyx.spiritone.com> <200609121931.k8CJVQ3I016832@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 9/13/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > What do people recommend for an Assembler on the Commodore 64? I'm wanting > > to play around with one, and am not sure what to use. I got my start way back with the official Commodore Assembler, an official copy that arrived some months after my employer was sent a demo C-64 to write software for. I still have my original disks from 1982, so when I'm in the C-64 nvironment, that's what I use. It can be a bit clunky; the tools all center around the BASIC environment with special patches - you enter code as if you were entering BASIC, but when the "EDITOR" is loaded, it doesn't tokenize code, and it adds a couple of commands via a BASIC "Wedge" to allow you to load and save code as SEQential files. In the past few years, though, I've seen massive productivity gains by using a cross assembler under UNIX (dasm is good) and testing under VICE. The cycle goes something like: edit with vi or Emacs, make, then switch to VICE and do a LOAD "myprog",11,1 (device 11 under VICE is an emulated disk drive that maps to whatever VICE thinks is the current directory). Being able to use a large display-space editor is verrry nice compared to what I used to do back in the old days on a real C-64. It allows me to see a lot more code at once, and not worry about wrapping at 40 columns. -ethan From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Sep 12 17:49:41 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:49:41 -0700 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? Message-ID: Dave McGuire wrote: On Sep 11, 2006, at 7:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Maybe, but there is one heck of a difference between working on an >> emulator and using (and modifying, interfacing, etc) the real >> hardware. >> And the OP wants to learn about hardware, I believe. > > Why not start with a "mostly on one chip" type of setup, say a Z8 or > 8051 > and work from there? There are plenty of small circuits published > using > them and, as the student's knowledge grows, other bits can be added on. This is a good idea. One can put together, using wire-wrap or point-to-point soldering, an 8752-based machine in an hour or two. Five chips, only one of which is a 40-pinner. Burn a copy of the well-known 8052AH-BASIC into it and you've got yourself quite a neat little machine. The BASIC interpreter has excellent I/O capability, interrupt support, and even floating-point math. If anyone wants to do this but lacks the stuff, I have 8752 chips and the means to program them. And the BASIC interpreter, of course. -Dave I agree with dave. But would add that some of the smaller PIC devices are also easy to work with and cheap. And there are several one line tutorials, as well as lots of supporting literature. Buy a couple of issues of Nuts and Volts to get started. And for a beginner, there is a nice book "Programmable Logic" that takes you through several of the basic I/O devices using simple logic interfaces, to demonstrate how easy they are to use and understand. I just found one on eBay for 99 cents, worth the price for getting started. Much more expensive, but Elektor did an outstanding beginners book on computers. Still available, but by time you import it, you're looking at $50 +. Billy From brain at jbrain.com Tue Sep 12 17:59:48 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:59:48 -0500 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45073BE4.7020005@jbrain.com> Billy Pettit wrote: > I agree with dave. But would add that some of the smaller PIC devices are > also easy to work with and cheap. And there are several one line tutorials, > as well as lots of supporting literature. Buy a couple of issues of Nuts > and Volts to get started. > I'd also like to mention the Atmel AVR line. Programmers are cheap, and the parts are likewise easy to use. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 12 17:53:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 23:53:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Sep 11, 6 09:09:05 pm Message-ID: > > > So, I'm fooling around with my Tandy PT-210 printing terminal again. > Upon disassembly, these switches are revealed to have rubber domes inside > that electrically connect two isolated semicircles by pressing a circle of These sound very similar to the switches used on the TRS-80 Model 3 and Model 4 keyboards. They may even be the same parts -- the ones in the M3 and M4 were made by Alps IIRC. Any maker's name on these? If they are the saem, a junk M3 or M4 keyboard would be a source of spares. > conductive rubber. Wiping with alcohol and blowing them out gives a > closed resistance of around 300 ohms, which is good enough to trigger the > keyboard circuitry. I've come to one that refuses to work at all, > regardless of how I clean it. > > So, I have two choices: > > 1) Glue tiny discs of aluminum to the bottoms of the rubber domes. A > preliminary test of this using water as "glue" suggests this won't work > for long. > > 2) Find some switches with the same footprint, height, and cross-shaped > acutator. The first two seem easy to get. Mouser lists absolutely no > switches with a cross top. > > So, has anyone here any pointers? A couple more suggestions. Chemtronics sell (sold?) a rubber keyboard repair kit. It was a 2-pack thing that you mixed and then put a bit on the conductive rubber pad. The problem was that it's expensive, and once mixed you have to use the whole lot (enough for about 100 switches I think). When I did my M4, I had a few dodgy swtiches. I found rubbing the conductive rubber pad with a soft (6B, if that means anything across the Pond) pencil helped a lot. And then I put said switches in little-used places, like the number pad. I don't know if that's applicable to your terminal, though. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 12 18:55:39 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > So, I'm fooling around with my Tandy PT-210 printing terminal again. > > Upon disassembly, these switches are revealed to have rubber domes inside > > that electrically connect two isolated semicircles by pressing a circle of > > These sound very similar to the switches used on the TRS-80 Model 3 and > Model 4 keyboards. They may even be the same parts -- the ones in the M3 > and M4 were made by Alps IIRC. Any maker's name on these? If they are the > saem, a junk M3 or M4 keyboard would be a source of spares. I found out last night that the switches are the same. The question then would become "are the switches on the junked keyboard still good?". See http://home.online.no/~kr-lund/repair.htm > A couple more suggestions. Chemtronics sell (sold?) a rubber keyboard > repair kit. It was a 2-pack thing that you mixed and then put a bit on > the conductive rubber pad. The problem was that it's expensive, and once > mixed you have to use the whole lot (enough for about 100 switches I > think). You can't mix up small batches? 100 is about how many switches I have to fix (two terminals worth) > When I did my M4, I had a few dodgy swtiches. I found rubbing the > conductive rubber pad with a soft (6B, if that means anything across the > Pond) pencil helped a lot. This makes sense as conductive rubber is graphite-impregnated to begin with. I think that repair kit mentioned above might be powdered graphite with some sort of binder. > And then I put said switches in little-used places, like the number pad. > I don't know if that's applicable to your terminal, though. See http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~hl/c.TR210.terminal.html for pictures of one. No number pad. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 12 18:58:09 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > When I did my M4, I had a few dodgy swtiches. I found rubbing the > conductive rubber pad with a soft (6B, if that means anything across the > Pond) pencil helped a lot. 6B pencils are easily obtained from art supply shops here. How long did this treatment hold up? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 12 19:14:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:14:33 -0700 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: <45073BE4.7020005@jbrain.com> References: <45073BE4.7020005@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200609121714330723.1571AA3A@10.0.0.252> On 9/12/2006 at 5:59 PM Jim Brain wrote: >I'd also like to mention the Atmel AVR line. Programmers are cheap, and >the parts are likewise easy to use. On the web site I posted earlier: http://www.futurlec.com/DevelopmentBoards.shtml You can take your pick--8x51, ATMega, AVR, 68HC11, PIC... All at good prices--e.g., ATMega development board for $32.90. (No I don't have an interest in them, but I do like to pass on good deals to others). Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 12 20:43:35 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:43:35 -0700 Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:07 PM -0500 9/12/06, JP Hindin wrote: >On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> What do people recommend for an Assembler on the Commodore 64? I'm wanting >> to play around with one, and am not sure what to use. I downloaded "Turbo >> Macro Pro '05", but have yet to figure it out how to actually do anything >> with it. As I understand it, I'm supposed to start it with the following: >> >> LOAD"TMP 1.1/S.",8 >> SYS 8*4096 >> >> Or instead of the SYS command I can use the Fastload cart to jump to $8000. >> However, in both cases, I get the same result, a READY prompt, and seem to >> still be in BASIC. > >Hey Zane; > >Try: >LOAD"TMP 1.1/S.",8,1 > >The ,1 will tell BASIC to load the code to the address it was saved from - >rather than at the bottom of memory ($0801, like you are here). > >That'll probably help; > >JP Thanks, that did the trick! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 12 08:13:27 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:13:27 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5H0000GE0ZJ363@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:19:56 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 9/11/2006 at 8:02 AM Allison wrote: > >>The manual says two tracks on 8" and 3 tracks on 5.25 with track 00 being >>128 byte single density only. NOTE the manual says tracks not cylinders. > >All I can relate to you is the number of cylinders before the directory. >What CCS uses the extras for is anyone's guess. My 8" CCS sample is DS MFM >and reserves 4 cylinders for boot. > >Cheers, >Chuck Interesting, I have both SSSD, SSDD and DSDD media for my CCS system and none exceed 2 tracks for 8". I have no 5.25" so I cant speak for those. The DSDD media I have uses the first two tracks of side 2 for data and the organization if 2 tracks side 1 reserved and the next 75 tracks are data wrapping around to side 2 (77tracks). The software is as supplied from CCS to format that media. I wonder if CCS did a change or switch gears on their format? I do know it reads SSSD CP/M standard without issues. My CCS system is 2200 crate with 2501 backplane, 2810 Z80 cpu, 2710 4 port serial, 2704 bus terminator and 2422 FDC. The only non CCS part is the Compupro Ram16. It's a really nice system, well documented and very complete software when I got it. I was used for a development platform for another CP/M system. The most recent date code on anything in the crate is early 1981 so I figure it's from around then. I don't know if this is an early version or later. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 12 08:22:54 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:22:54 -0400 Subject: bad keys on terminals Message-ID: <0J5H000CNEGQJ683@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: bad keys on terminals > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 05:31:07 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Dave > >BTW: I have similar vintage PETs with identical keyboards in >which the conductive rubber is fine ... anyone know what >conditions accelerate the deterioration of conductive rubber? > Ozone and other airborne contaminants. I have a old (30 years old) peice of black conductive foam that is stored in a large jar with cmos parts and some dessicant is in perfect condition. A peice from the same block exposed to the air died (crumbled) over 15 years ago. I've also had several keyboards with foam backed pads (Cherry?) die on me. Same problem, either the glue dies or the foam. Allison From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Sep 12 16:30:26 2006 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:30:26 +0100 Subject: Assistance required with an Acorn A3000, IDE Hard Disk Message-ID: Hello! Can anyone help me (off list, if necessary) with formatting an IDE hard disc, using a Castle Technologies IDE mini podule in an Acorn A3000 upgraded to RISCOS 3.11? Any advice gratefully received. TIA. Austin. From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Sep 12 16:33:35 2006 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:33:35 +0100 Subject: Faulty keyboard on an Amstrad CPC 6128. Message-ID: A cheeky second post requesting assistance... I picked up an Amstrad CPC6128 today from an eBay auction. It is complete and came with a whole bunch of software. Unfortunately the keyboard has a few faulty keys and the 2? disk drive makes horrible grinding noises when I try to access a disk. Does anybody on the list have any experience of servicing these computers to give me some pointers before I tear it down? -Austin. From PLM3128 at aol.com Tue Sep 12 23:52:03 2006 From: PLM3128 at aol.com (PLM3128 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:52:03 EDT Subject: SN94281 Message-ID: I am interested in the SN94281 do you still have and if so email me the price. Paul Moldenhauer email: _plm3128 at aol.com_ (mailto:plm3128 at aol.com) . thank you From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Sep 13 05:48:12 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:48:12 +0200 Subject: VCF UK (was:Re: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0) In-Reply-To: <45070822.5020602@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4506D397.31046.9654A6BD@localhost> Message-ID: <4507FE0C.23714.9AE80ECE@localhost> Am 12 Sep 2006 19:18 meinte Jules Richardson: > Hans Franke wrote: > > In general it would be great to have at least attended one or two VCF as > > regular visitor, and have been a helper (for the whole time) to another > > VCF, preferable the California or Munich event > Surely every VCF event is pretty unique? Isn't it more important that whoever > organises it has been to other shows of a similar size where the displays are > mainly provided by private enthusiasts? > Just a thought anyway - obviously there are some requirements of a VCF that > may not be at other shows (adequate power, building cooling etc.), but I'd be > surprised if the bulk of the experience can't be drawn from other types of > show too? It's a definite plus if you have been involved with other shows, but VCF is more than just some tables and grey boxes atop. VCF is modelled afer a core design that should be followed to produce a VCF, and not any other hobbyist gathering. You're right, that every VCF is special and differs. For one size does influence style - a small event will differ from a large one. Same goes for the venue it is held - an old sports hall will give a diffeent flair than some university rooms or the CHM. The usage of a shooting guilds trophy room for speeches will definitly give a twist compared to an auditorium. And last but equaly important, some parts of the VCF concept might need to be adepted to local circumstances - for example while at the VCF in California the Fleamarket is a large operation, and consignment just a hidden, small part, VCFe emphasis on Consignment as the only chanal for retail. Or, at VCF a well defined system of awards are given to attendees for their exhibitions, in contrast, VCFe only knows a 'Publikumspreis' (visitors choice) as awards. These changes ar part to addapt to different organisation forms, part to adept for law reasons. This flexibility is part of the VCF concept to transfer the core structure and idea into different settings and sets it apart from the dozends of shows for classic computer enthusiasts, that come up every other year. High hopes and low outcome. Beside the VCFe there are only two other non brand specific shows, here in Germany, that made it past the first year. One made it by now into the third year, but the show still fits into a small class room, the other (XzentriX) did just have it's 9th incarnation - sizeing about half of VCFe, but with an total different aproach - a gymn hall setup with tables, where people show up with their stuff and have a great weekend. A very minimalistic contra to VCF if you want - I enjoy it every year :) Again, having experience with other shows is a great plus. Only an aperenticeship (if I may call it that way) for the producer at one of the large VCF is not just a good idea. Furthermore I think Sallam or myself will be glad to help at and arround the event. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Sep 13 06:14:42 2006 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:14:42 +0100 Subject: VCF UK (was:Re: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0) In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0609120437m17e0f57en93a6bf381c3baaa0@mail.gmail.com> References: <11c909eb0609120437m17e0f57en93a6bf381c3baaa0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060913111439.GA7681@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Tue, Sep 12, 2006 at 12:37:39PM +0100, Pete Edwards wrote: > I've changed the subject line to see if it grabs anyone's attention :) It worked. > Anyone in the UK have experience of setting up a similar idea? I know people > >on the Sinclair QL mailing list who put up yearly bashes in church halls > >and Various 8-bit groups have done this too, although most are now so small that they can't. FWIW, the remnants of WACCI, an Amstrad CPC group that put on a few such events, are having a pub meet in London on the 18th of November (see recent announcement in comp.sys.amstrad.8bit). Even if none of the old organisers turn up, CC and VCFers are most welcome to join us for beer :-) > No experience at all - though I'd also be happy to help. It strikes me that > having someone on board who's done similar size events would be a big > advantage. Model railway clubs would probably be good places to look for expertise in running similar events, as many of them hold a yearly exhibition. Typical venues are church halls, schools, and (out of season) non-league or low-division football clubs. I expect there's quite a large cross-over between vintage computing and railway modelling too, which helps a lot - lots of them use BBCs for their control systems. > Can anyone comment on how much effort and how many bodies it's taken to > organize a small(ish) event like this? Two or three people for several months, with a handful more in the last couple of weeks and especially on the day before and during the event. Expect to have no free time at all for the last couple of weeks at least. -- David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age There are many different types of sausages. The best are from the north of England. The wurst are from Germany. -- seen in alt.2eggs... From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 13 10:15:46 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:15:46 -0400 Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609121931.k8CJVQ3I016832@floodgap.com> References: <200609121931.k8CJVQ3I016832@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200609131115.46358.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 September 2006 03:31 pm, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > If you want to do cross-assembling, I shall now make a shameless plug and > encourage you to try xa: > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/xa/ Neat! Anybody know of cross-assemblers for any other chips? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 13 13:01:21 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:01:21 -0400 Subject: network cards Message-ID: <200609131401.21028.rtellason@verizon.net> While consolidating network cards into one box, I came across a couple I have no use for. One is an IBM Token Ring Card, they have a copyright notice on one of the chips and the center of the card is occupied by one of those square aluminum thingies that they're so fond of -- on the metal bracket with the connectors is a little paper sticker saying "16/4". The other is an SMC ARCnet card. I have no intentions of ever doing anything with either of these, so if you can use them please feel free to contact me offlist. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 13 14:14:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:14:17 -0700 Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609131115.46358.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609121931.k8CJVQ3I016832@floodgap.com> <200609131115.46358.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609131214170162.19851C92@10.0.0.252> On 9/13/2006 at 11:15 AM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Anybody know of cross-assemblers for any other chips? Here are a coiuple: http://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/assembler.html In partcular, note CrossFire, a meta-assembler. When I'm working with a strange chip, I just code the instruction set as a bunch of MASM macros. Cheers, Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Sep 13 14:43:27 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:43:27 -0500 Subject: Update on KS/NE Trips Message-ID: <004501c6d76c$e3f8a1c0$2e406b43@66067007> Just a short note to say that the trip was a great success and seeing two SDS 910's and a SDS 920 plus all the related items in one place (a home) was something. I only got one of the SDS 910's plus 4 tape drives and other stuff. The SEL810A was great also and I still have not been able to get it off the truck (this is the third day). I will post a list later in the week after I get everything off and some rest. More later John (Still need funds for GA rescue). From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Sep 13 14:42:37 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:42:37 -0700 Subject: XGameStation Pico Edition Workshop @ VCF 9.0 Message-ID: <45085F2D.mailN7E1UQ2AV@vintagetech.com> Build Your Own Video Game Console! XGameStation Pico Edition Workshop at the Vintage Computer Festival November 5, 2006 http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/workshop.php The VCF is proud to present the first Build-It-Yourself experience at VCF 9.0 this November 5. The Build-It-Yourself workshops are a great introduction for those interested in learning the art of computers, programming and electronics and who wish to get first-hand experience building and programming their own hardware under the direction of leading experts in the field. Workshop Description The first announced workshop will be conducted by world famous video game designer, programmer and author Andre' LaMothe. Andre' has nearly 30 years of computer programming experience and holds degrees in mathematics, computer science, and electrical engineering. He is the world's best selling game development book author. Andre' founded and operates Nurve Networks LLC, a company that develops and markets video game hardware kits that enable one to build and program a console video game system from scratch. Nurve products include the XGameStation Micro and Pico Editions as well as the forthcoming Hydra Console. The workshop Andre' will conduct at VCF 9.0 will focus on the XGameStation Pico Edition. The XGS Pico Edition kit is a simplified version of the XGS Micro Edition, with an Ubicom SX28 "Super-PIC" running at 80 MHz at its core. For complete technical specifications, visit the XGS Pico Edition product page: http://www.xgamestation.com/view_product.php?id=29 Pre-Requisites and Tools Those wishing to attend this workshop should have a minimal level of soldering skill. Participants should bring their favorite soldering iron and solder, a multimeter, and some simple tools such as dykes. Optional tools include a laptop with a standard serial port and an SX key (also available from Nurve Networks). Everything else that is required for the workshop will be provided, including video displays and cables, power supplies, etc. Andre' will take the students through a step-by-step build-out of the game hardware using on-screen visuals. At the end of the class, each participant will have a working XGS Pico Edition game system ready for programming. The entire workshop will run for approximately two hours. Registration The fee for this workshop is $75.00, which includes the XGS Pico Edition Kit. To reserve your spot, go to the weblink provided below and follow the ordering instructions. Fees must be paid in advance of the course by October 29, 2006. http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/workshop.php?action=select&id=VCF90XGSPEW Inquiries regarding this workshop should be directed by e-mail to . From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 13 15:53:12 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:53:12 -0400 Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609131214170162.19851C92@10.0.0.252> References: <200609121931.k8CJVQ3I016832@floodgap.com> <200609131115.46358.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609131214170162.19851C92@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609131653.12484.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 13 September 2006 03:14 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/13/2006 at 11:15 AM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Anybody know of cross-assemblers for any other chips? > > Here are a coiuple: > > http://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/assembler.html > > In partcular, note CrossFire, a meta-assembler. > > When I'm working with a strange chip, I just code the instruction set as a > bunch of MASM macros. Um. Some of that stuff looks fairly interesting but it all looks like it needs dos or some other m$ platform, and I'm running only linux here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 13 17:14:12 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 15:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609131653.12484.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 13, 2006 04:53:12 PM Message-ID: <200609132214.k8DMECIO002933@onyx.spiritone.com> > > When I'm working with a strange chip, I just code the instruction set as a > > bunch of MASM macros. > > Um. Some of that stuff looks fairly interesting but it all looks like it > needs dos or some other m$ platform, and I'm running only linux here... So, run it under emulation on Linux, or go to freshmeat.net and see what you can find in the way of cross-assemblers there. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 13 16:54:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:54:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Sep 12, 6 04:55:39 pm Message-ID: > > These sound very similar to the switches used on the TRS-80 Model 3 and > > Model 4 keyboards. They may even be the same parts -- the ones in the M3 > > and M4 were made by Alps IIRC. Any maker's name on these? If they are the > > saem, a junk M3 or M4 keyboard would be a source of spares. > > I found out last night that the switches are the same. The question then That does not really suprise me... > would become "are the switches on the junked keyboard still good?". See > http://home.online.no/~kr-lund/repair.htm Maybe, maybe not. My experience is that you'll get _some_ good switches from such a keyboard. How many do you need (no, I don't have any spares...)? > > > A couple more suggestions. Chemtronics sell (sold?) a rubber keyboard > > repair kit. It was a 2-pack thing that you mixed and then put a bit on > > the conductive rubber pad. The problem was that it's expensive, and once > > mixed you have to use the whole lot (enough for about 100 switches I > > think). > > You can't mix up small batches? 100 is about how many switches I The instructions specifically tell you to mix the entire kit, and not to measure out, say, half of it. Of course they want to sell more kits :-) > have to fix (two terminals worth) Well, if you need to do all the switches, it may be worth buying said kit (if it's still available) and giving it a go. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 13 16:55:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:55:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Sep 12, 6 04:58:09 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > > When I did my M4, I had a few dodgy swtiches. I found rubbing the > > conductive rubber pad with a soft (6B, if that means anything across the > > Pond) pencil helped a lot. > > 6B pencils are easily obtained from art supply shops here. How long did I didn't know if the designations for grades of pencils were the same in the States or not. > this treatment hold up? It's till working (8 or so years later), but I don't use the M4 that much. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 13 17:50:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 23:50:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9816 Message-ID: I've just bought a partially defective HP9816 (aka HP9000 model 216) on E-bay. Let me emphasise from the start that the seller declared the problems in the E-bay listing, so I am certainly not complaining. Anyway. one problem is that the power-on diagnostics mention an 'Alpha Video' failure, and then give a memory address/data failure message. I think the address is in the text video RAM area (it would be on a 9826 or 9836), so I suspect one of the 2K SRAM chips on the text PCB (the larger one standing up next to the CRT). I will do some more tests. Another problem is that I am missing a keycap, I think it's the left hand shift key. I have the small, compact keyboard. So a couple of questions. 1) Does anyone have a 'junker' keyboard that I could buy a keycap from. Or any ideas as to making one 2) Does anyone have the service manual (or is there a scanner version on the web, Google found nothing, and I couldn't find it on the usual sites [1]). Yes,. I know it'll be a boardswapper guide, but I might was well read it if it's available. [1]. What's up with http://www.hpmuseum.net? I get all sorts of 'SQL errors' when I look at the doucmentation index, and most of the manuals are no longer available :-( -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 13 17:57:29 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:57:29 -0400 Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609132214.k8DMECIO002933@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609132214.k8DMECIO002933@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200609131857.29851.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 13 September 2006 06:14 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > When I'm working with a strange chip, I just code the instruction set > > > as a bunch of MASM macros. > > > > Um. Some of that stuff looks fairly interesting but it all looks like it > > needs dos or some other m$ platform, and I'm running only linux here... > > So, run it under emulation on Linux, or go to freshmeat.net and see what > you can find in the way of cross-assemblers there. True, I have spent some time in the past at freshmeat.net and forgot about it completely... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 13 17:58:29 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:58:29 -0400 Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609131858.29444.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 13 September 2006 05:54 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > You can't mix up small batches? 100 is about how many switches I > > The instructions specifically tell you to mix the entire kit, and not to > measure out, say, half of it. Of course they want to sell more kits :-) I'd feel a whole lot better about taking some company's word that this is necessary if they'd say _why_ it is. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 13 18:26:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 00:26:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: <200609131858.29444.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 13, 6 06:58:29 pm Message-ID: > > On Wednesday 13 September 2006 05:54 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > You can't mix up small batches? 100 is about how many switches I > > > > The instructions specifically tell you to mix the entire kit, and not to > > measure out, say, half of it. Of course they want to sell more kits :-) > > I'd feel a whole lot better about taking some company's word that this is > necessary if they'd say _why_ it is. I would assume it's because at least one part is not totally homogeneous and may partially separate in storage. If you take, say, half of the contents of the container you might not be getting half of everything. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 13 18:30:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 00:30:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fixed that HP9816 (!) Message-ID: I've had another look at that 9816... The error message seemed to say that bit 12 of the video RAM was stuck low. Anyway, I removed the text and graphics boards, the monitor PCB (which carries the connectors these plug into) and the backplane. Then, since I know the DIO slot pinout, I could trace data line 12 from a DIO slot to the text PCB socket. And then on the text PCB I traced it to one side of a '245 buffer. And from the other side to a data pin on U7 -- one of the 2K SRAM chips. I desoldered U7 and raided my junk box for a replacement. Soldered it in and put the machine back together. And amazingly no more error messages. I only got the machine today, and have no documentation at all. Hmm -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 13 19:03:36 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 01:03:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teletype lubrication advice Message-ID: <10609140103.ZM13128@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> I'm going to be using my 33ASR at what now seems to be an annual classic hardware exhibition for Computer Science at York, so a spot of preventive maintenance seems to be in order. I have Vol.1 and Vol.2 of "Bulletin 310B", Technical Manual. Vol.1 is installation, disassembly/reassembly, lubrication, theory of operation; Vol.2 is adjustment information (Is there a parts manual anywhere? I'd like a copy of that...) It says to lubricate the motor bearings at each end. But mine doesn't look like it was designed for that. It's a standard (for the UK) Teletype motor part no. 182267 (115V 50Hz). Are these meant to be "sealed for life" or is there some way to oil them that I've not spotted? I'd like to get a new typehead. Mine has suffered from apparently being used after the rubber hammer cap went gooey and fell off. It now has a thin self-adhesive rubber foot of about the correct thickness installed, but some of the characters were already damaged. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Sep 13 20:30:58 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:30:58 -0400 Subject: Teletype lubrication advice In-Reply-To: <10609140103.ZM13128@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <10609140103.ZM13128@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4508B0D2.9030800@nktelco.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > I'd like to get a new typehead. Mine has suffered from apparently > being used after the rubber hammer cap went gooey and fell off. It now has a > thin self-adhesive rubber foot of about the correct thickness > installed, but some of the characters were already damaged. Mine had similar problems. I was able to get the print quality back to legible by filing the raised letters enough to remove the damage. The print is not as crisp as it should be, but at least I get the whole letter now. Is there a source for these typeheads? -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 14 00:13:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:13:06 -0700 Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609131653.12484.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609121931.k8CJVQ3I016832@floodgap.com> <200609131115.46358.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609131214170162.19851C92@10.0.0.252> <200609131653.12484.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609132213060582.1BA95468@10.0.0.252> On 9/13/2006 at 4:53 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Um. Some of that stuff looks fairly interesting but it all looks like it >needs dos or some other m$ platform, and I'm running only linux here... If you haven't already discovered it, there's crasm for 6800/6801/6803/6502/65C02/Z80: http://rpmfind.net/linux/RPM/sourceforge/c/cr/CByName.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 14 02:09:32 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 00:09:32 -0700 Subject: C64 Fuse? Message-ID: How many Amps should the fuse in the C64 be rated for? The fuse I pulled is a 1.5A 250V fuse, yet "Troubleshooting & Repairing your Commodore 64" says to use a 1A 250V fuse. A quick bit of googling seems to indicate that it should be 1.5A. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Sep 14 06:13:08 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 06:13:08 -0500 Subject: Disk drive 50 years old today (305 RAMAC) Message-ID: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> Today is the 50th anniversary of the IBM 305 RAMAC - listed at the link below as the first computer system that had a disk drive. http://www.cedmagic.com/history/ibm-305-ramac.html -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 13 21:00:08 2006 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:00:08 -0700 Subject: HP Inrtregal References: Message-ID: <000801c6d815$afbcb2d0$0af9e444@SONYDIGITALED> anyone know how these were maked serial number wise...if a prototype? I need to hook up with some people that have product knowlege on this. please use the email at www.smecc.org to reply to me off list I do not get on the listerves much! ed shape archivist for smecc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 14 12:27:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 10:27:55 -0700 Subject: Disk drive 50 years old today (305 RAMAC) In-Reply-To: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200609141027550611.1E4A12DB@10.0.0.252> On 9/14/2006 at 6:13 AM Dave Dunfield wrote: >Today is the 50th anniversary of the IBM 305 RAMAC - listed at the link >below as the first computer system that had a disk drive. > >http://www.cedmagic.com/history/ibm-305-ramac.html The Beeb had a little segment on the anniversary, too. Does anyone think that the disk drive will see 100? I do recall the Bryant disks. I believe they spun at 600 RPM and that a head assembly weighed about 8 lbs. When they performed a seek, you definitely could feel a tremor in the floor. They used "zone recording". The outer zone had more sectors per track than the inner one. At one time, the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago had a RAMAC drive on exhibit, with the head moving up and down and in and out. Since the exhibit was an illustration of "modern technology", this was probably at least 40 years ago. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 14 13:12:39 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:12:39 -0400 Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609141412.39032.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 13 September 2006 07:26 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Wednesday 13 September 2006 05:54 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > You can't mix up small batches? 100 is about how many switches I > > > > > > The instructions specifically tell you to mix the entire kit, and not > > > to measure out, say, half of it. Of course they want to sell more kits > > > :-) > > > > I'd feel a whole lot better about taking some company's word that this is > > necessary if they'd say _why_ it is. > > I would assume it's because at least one part is not totally homogeneous > and may partially separate in storage. If you take, say, half of the > contents of the container you might not be getting half of everything. That makes sense as one possible reason. I'd prefer not to have to assume, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 14 13:19:36 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 12:19:36 -0600 Subject: Disk drive 50 years old today (305 RAMAC) In-Reply-To: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45099D38.6000907@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Today is the 50th anniversary of the IBM 305 RAMAC - listed at the link > below as the first computer system that had a disk drive. > > http://www.cedmagic.com/history/ibm-305-ramac.html Well what about the computer too? A quick google for information indicates this to be a drum style cpu with data-base records on the drum. Segment from BRL - report #1115 march 1961. " CIRCUIT ELEMENTS OF ENTIRE SYSTEM Manufacturer Type Quantity Tubes 6211 1,054 6350 81 5919 626 7044 72 2D21 205 5965 6 Diodes AB 13 AD 2 AM 112 AL 275 F 4 Magnetic Cores 14 100 Selenium Rectifiers 360 (IBM P/N 315903 (For stacks of 10) Germanium Rectifiers 28 IBM P/N's 2100111, 2100110, 2100119, 2114085, 2100108 512073. CHECKING FEATURES Manufacturer Built-in checking features include parity (odd bit) on all internal data transfers and printing, input from cards by two readings, and input from paper tape by count of data punches by record (T.C.C.C.). Programmed checks include control to pre-established totals, comparing addresses and part numbers in program, and arithmetic proof factors and reverse arithmetic in program. POWER, SPACE, WEIGHT, AND SITE PREPARATION Manufacturer Power, computer 12.6 KVA Area, computer 370 sq ft Room size, computer 18 ft 1 in x 20 ft 4 in(min) Floor loading 50 lbs/sq ft Capacity, air conditioner 4 Tons Humidity not to exceed 80%. Two feet of headroom above 350 Unit.Physical Planning Manual and assist- ance are available. USA LOD Power, computer 42.5 Kw 53.1 KVA Power, air cond 20 Kw 14 KVA Volume, computer 856.4 cu ft Volume, air conditioner 9,375 cu ft Area, computer 178 sq ft Area, air conditioner 400 sq ft Room size, computer 40 ft x 4o ft 1,600 sq ft Room size, air conditioner 25 ft x 25 ft Floor loading 36.8 lbs/sq ft 543 lbs concen max Capacity, air conditioner 62.5 Tons Weight, computer 18,484 lbs 1,600 ft. (40 x 4o ft) were inclosed within the Machine Accounting Services area which in itself was an inclosure of 167 x 87. Although the entire area was air-conditioned, additional ducts and vents were concentrated in the computer area. " > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > . > From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 14 13:18:25 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:18:25 -0400 Subject: C64 ASM? In-Reply-To: <200609132213060582.1BA95468@10.0.0.252> References: <200609121931.k8CJVQ3I016832@floodgap.com> <200609131653.12484.rtellason@verizon.net> <200609132213060582.1BA95468@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609141418.25871.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 14 September 2006 01:13 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/13/2006 at 4:53 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Um. Some of that stuff looks fairly interesting but it all looks like it > >needs dos or some other m$ platform, and I'm running only linux here... > > If you haven't already discovered it, there's crasm for > 6800/6801/6803/6502/65C02/Z80: > > http://rpmfind.net/linux/RPM/sourceforge/c/cr/CByName.html They sure do cram a lot into < 60K bytes, there. I've downloaded it and will play with it a bit... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 14 13:20:21 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:20:21 -0400 Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609141420.21498.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 14 September 2006 03:09 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > How many Amps should the fuse in the C64 be rated for? The fuse I > pulled is a 1.5A 250V fuse, yet "Troubleshooting & Repairing your > Commodore 64" says to use a 1A 250V fuse. A quick bit of googling > seems to indicate that it should be 1.5A. I don't think it really makes all that much difference. In working on maybe some thousands of those things I can't recall if we ever did see a blown fuse in there. Assuming you're talking about the one in the 64, and not the one in the PS, which is another matter. If you have them handy already I'd use the 1.5A. The only time it's going to blow is if there's a short somewhere, and most of the failures I've seen in those machines are other things. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 14 14:01:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 12:01:13 -0700 Subject: Disk drive 50 years old today (305 RAMAC) In-Reply-To: <45099D38.6000907@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> <45099D38.6000907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200609141201130326.1E9F7CB6@10.0.0.252> On 9/14/2006 at 12:19 PM woodelf wrote: >Well what about the computer too? >A quick google for information indicates this to be >a drum style cpu with data-base records on the drum. >Segment from BRL - report #1115 march 1961. ... > 2D21 205 ... Most likely coil drivers for punch/printer/relays? Anyone know how the CPU differed from the 650? Cheers, Chuck From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Sep 14 14:14:25 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 20:14:25 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? Message-ID: Due to an urgent need for more space, I'd like to know if anyone would be interested in taking ALL of the following off my hands. Doesn't have to be one person - feel free to club together with whoever you feel like if you can arrange it fairly quickly. I just don't want to ship individual bits of this or that to the four corners of the globe - I don't have time :( Here goes: HP 85 - 5 machines (one or two may be missing a few keys). I posted about these (and the 86Bs) on this list a while ago. HP 86B - 3 machines. All work, for varying degrees of "work". One seems totally OK, one seems to work but various characters of the screen are stuck as "M" right from switch on, so I'm guessing video RAM trouble. One has an unresponsive keyboard - a couple of the keys work but that's it. This one also has keys missing, so is probably best used as spares for the other two. There are RAM cartridges and ROM drawers on offer with these as well, also 5 off 9121 dual single-sided 3.5" HPIB drive and 1 off 9122 dual double-sided 3.5" HPIB drive, also 3 brand new rolls of paper and 6 tape cartridges Sun Ultra 2 300(ish)MHz - 384(ish)MB RAM Sun Ultra 1 140MHz, not sure how much memory is in it Sun SPARCstation 4, 110MHz, 96MB RAM, 1GB (I think) disk Sun SPARCstation 5, 90MHz, there's some memory in it but not sure how much Sun SPARCstation 2, 2 off, there's memory and disks in both Sun SPARCstation IPX, 2 off, both have memory and disks I think Sun SPARCclassic, faulty Sun SPARCstation SLC, has memory Sun SPARCstation ELC, has memory Sun SPARCstation ELC (faulty) - not sure if this one has memory Box of the system board and socket board combos from died-of-video-problems SPARCstation ELCs. There are about 8 or so of these, all have memory IIRC. Sun EXP-2 disk pack (the 386i style one) - 4 (one is for spares only). All have disks and/or tape drives in Sun type 411 disk enclosure, DAT tape drive fitted Sun type 411 disk enclosure, 4.3GB IBM harddisk fitted Sun type 611 UniPack disk enclosure, 7 off, all closed-face type. Most, if not all, have various low-ish size harddisks fitted Sun type 711 MultiPack disk enclosure, takes 12 SCA harddisks in SPUD brackets, complete with keys Sun "SBUS Expansion" with card and cable Sun GDM-17E10 17" monitor. Last known working, can't guarantee it still is Sun CPD-1790 17" monitor, works Sun GDM-20D10 20" monitor, 2 off. Both have different faults. One works fine once it's warmed up, but while it does the size of the screen "bounces" alarmingly all over the place. One has (as is written on the casing in biro) "LINE JITTER PROBLEM". These are stunning looking monitors - one even has its IR remote control. Make one good one out of the pair SGI 14" monitor. Yes, I didn't realise that any 13w3 monitors were ever made this small, but here it is. Don't know the model number offhand, sorry Huge box full of SBUS and UPA cards. Along with loads of CG3 and 501-2015s and stuff, there are some rarities in here (Vigra VGA cards, 4 off; others as well) Box full of Sun accessories - audio output breakouts, serial adaptors, drive mounting sleds, all kinds of stuff Huge box* full of SCSI cables of all varieties, from Sun DD50 right up to VHDCI Huge box* full of serial cables and RS232/MMJ-related adaptors Huge box* full of IEC 320 power leads Boxes of mice (Sun SDB, PS2 and serial) About 10 PC keyboards About 10 Sun Type 4 keyboards One or two Sun Type 5 keyboards One Sun Type 6 USB keyboard DEC MicroVAX 3100-30 - not sure if these have memory, they don't have disks DEC LA38 teletype DEC VT510 dumb terminal - 2 off DEC BA356 disk array - full of 4.3GB and 9.1GB drives. Has a personality module fitted, but I couldn't tell you what kind it is Other dumb terminals - there are about 20 of various kinds, including a Lear-Siegler ADM-11 which is retro-tastic Box of old SCSI and IDE harddisks 19" rack mount 10baseT network hub - 24 ports I think Drawer full of motherboards, 486 to Pentium era Various old media (including some hard-sectored 8" floppes which I think belong to something Tektronix) 3.5" floppy disk boxes - 3 of the "square" style (2 disks wide) and one of the "narrow" style (1 disk wide) Mac Plus 1Mb. Also an Apple 20SC harddisk to go with this - don't have the cable, though. Few miscellaneous external SCSI disk enclosures of various sizes Some x86 machines - few 486s, couple of Pentia (~120MHz) and two more interesting machines: - One DEC which has the CPU on a removable daughterboard (I have 3 of said boards - two are a single 486 and one is two Socket 5 Pentia. I can even give you the matched pair of P133 CPUs I bought to put in this). This machine has onboard Adaptec Wide SCSI. One Full Tower AT - will take (IIRC) 5 3.5" drives in a nifty swing-out cage, and 5 half-height drives (CDROMs etc). Currently fitted with a P200 with 64MB RAM and an Adaptec 2940W SCSI card. APC UPS system (don't know the model number offhand, but a smallish one) - batteries are duff, but I bought a slightly bigger battery (which has to go outside the case) and all the necessary big wires and connectors to be able to wire it in for use Entire shelf full of CDROM drives, including 4 Nakamichi 5-disc changers (two SCSI and two IDE) 7 off 3.5" HD floppy drives Several large bags full of various cables and x86 accessories (floppy, IDE, ...) Few boxes of various ISA/VLB/PCI cards - mainly graphics and network Probably a bit more stuff that I haven't listed, as well The catch: you must take it ALL. Currently, it's filling a room (and overspilling a bit from that) and I want it gone. I'd say this is going to fill at least 2 estate cars, so you'd probably want a van. I can help you pack and carry it out. How much? Make me an offer. The offer can be from "free but I can have it gone REAL SOON" upwards. I really wouldn't say no to some cash ;) This stuff is teetering ever closer to getting landfilled; I'd hate to see it be lost to the community but I honestly can't keep it any longer. I hope someone/some group out there can give it a good home(s). Ed. * where these are concerned, you can take the *contents* of the box but not the boxes themselves - they were quite expensive. I have many flat-pack cardboard boxes and can make some up for you to take stuff away in. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 14 15:09:04 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609141420.21498.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 14, 2006 02:20:21 PM Message-ID: <200609142009.k8EK94KV026467@onyx.spiritone.com> > On Thursday 14 September 2006 03:09 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > How many Amps should the fuse in the C64 be rated for? The fuse I > > pulled is a 1.5A 250V fuse, yet "Troubleshooting & Repairing your > > Commodore 64" says to use a 1A 250V fuse. A quick bit of googling > > seems to indicate that it should be 1.5A. > > I don't think it really makes all that much difference. In working on maybe > some thousands of those things I can't recall if we ever did see a blown fuse > in there. Assuming you're talking about the one in the 64, and not the one > in the PS, which is another matter. If you have them handy already I'd use > the 1.5A. The only time it's going to blow is if there's a short somewhere, > and most of the failures I've seen in those machines are other things. It's the one on the motherboard (original style 64). It's already blown and I'm planning on trying to find a replacement later on today. I'm thinking the local auto-parts store might actually be a good choice, as IIRC, that's the same style fuse that my pickup uses (yeah, it's an old pickup). Still not totally sure if it should be a 1A or 1.5A, as there seem to be lots of conflicting answers on that. I guess I'll try to pick up a 1.5A. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 14 15:34:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:34:15 -0700 Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609142009.k8EK94KV026467@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609142009.k8EK94KV026467@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200609141334150088.1EF4A840@10.0.0.252> On 9/14/2006 at 1:09 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >It's the one on the motherboard (original style 64). It's already blown >and I'm planning on trying to find a replacement later on today. I'm thinking >the local auto-parts store might actually be a good choice, as IIRC, that's >the same style fuse that my pickup uses (yeah, it's an old pickup). You may not be all that lucky in finding a 1.5A fuse at an auto parts store. In my experience, they usually don't know about anything smaller than 5 amps. OTOH, a Radio Scrap store would certainly have one. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 14 15:43:14 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:43:14 -0600 Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609141334150088.1EF4A840@10.0.0.252> References: <200609142009.k8EK94KV026467@onyx.spiritone.com> <200609141334150088.1EF4A840@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4509BEE2.4060806@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You may not be all that lucky in finding a 1.5A fuse at an auto parts > store. In my experience, they usually don't know about anything smaller > than 5 amps. OTOH, a Radio Scrap store would certainly have one. Now is that slow or fast blow? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 14 15:40:50 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:40:50 -0700 Subject: Disk drive 50 years old today (305 RAMAC) References: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> <45099D38.6000907@jetnet.ab.ca> <200609141201130326.1E9F7CB6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4509BE52.39F4907C@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/14/2006 at 12:19 PM woodelf wrote: > >Segment from BRL - report #1115 march 1961. > ... > > 2D21 205 > ... > Most likely coil drivers for punch/printer/relays? I have seen them used in digital applications for purposes other than driving electro-mechanical stuff, however. Specifically, as the reset drivers in an HP 524 tube counter (resetting the string of counter flip-flops). I suspect the low plate ('ON') resistance was the attraction/benefit. (The 2D21 is a small tube thyratron, if anyone is wondering they're getting singled out for attention.) -- IIRC, Paul Pierce has one of the model of disk drive which was essentially the RAMAC drive interfaced for use with the 7000 series. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 14 15:46:41 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609141334150088.1EF4A840@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 14, 2006 01:34:15 PM Message-ID: <200609142046.k8EKkfro028584@onyx.spiritone.com> > You may not be all that lucky in finding a 1.5A fuse at an auto parts > store. In my experience, they usually don't know about anything smaller > than 5 amps. OTOH, a Radio Scrap store would certainly have one. Thanks for the tip! I was already planning at stopping at the local Rat Shack store to pick up a couple sockets that I need anyway. I just assumed the auto parts place would be a cheaper source. Zane From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 14 15:51:01 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <4509BEE2.4060806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200609142009.k8EK94KV026467@onyx.spiritone.com> <200609141334150088.1EF4A840@10.0.0.252> <4509BEE2.4060806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 2006, woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > You may not be all that lucky in finding a 1.5A fuse at an auto parts > > store. In my experience, they usually don't know about anything smaller > > than 5 amps. OTOH, a Radio Scrap store would certainly have one. > Now is that slow or fast blow? Most likely fast. Slow-blow fuses are for applications that take a lot of power on startup, then go down. For example, a linear power supply, especially with big smoothing capacitors. Electric motors are like that too. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 14 16:04:35 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 17:04:35 -0400 Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609142009.k8EK94KV026467@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609142009.k8EK94KV026467@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200609141704.35276.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 14 September 2006 04:09 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > On Thursday 14 September 2006 03:09 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > How many Amps should the fuse in the C64 be rated for? The fuse I > > > pulled is a 1.5A 250V fuse, yet "Troubleshooting & Repairing your > > > Commodore 64" says to use a 1A 250V fuse. A quick bit of googling > > > seems to indicate that it should be 1.5A. > > > > I don't think it really makes all that much difference. In working on > > maybe some thousands of those things I can't recall if we ever did see a > > blown fuse in there. Assuming you're talking about the one in the 64, > > and not the one in the PS, which is another matter. If you have them > > handy already I'd use the 1.5A. The only time it's going to blow is if > > there's a short somewhere, and most of the failures I've seen in those > > machines are other things. > > It's the one on the motherboard (original style 64). It's already blown > and I'm planning on trying to find a replacement later on today. I'm > thinking the local auto-parts store might actually be a good choice, as > IIRC, that's the same style fuse that my pickup uses (yeah, it's an old > pickup). Older than my '78 Dodge? :-) Those are likely to be 32V automotive fuses, and not the 250V variety, though I doubt that'll make much difference. > Still not totally sure if it should be a 1A or 1.5A, as there seem to be > lots of conflicting answers on that. I guess I'll try to pick up a 1.5A. Let me know offlist if you run into trouble, I'm sure that I have some of those around. I can also probably get into the service manuals, which I have around here someplace, and tell you for sure what it's supposed to be and what might be the problem if it blows again. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Sep 14 16:36:41 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:36:41 -0700 Subject: Losing Your Memories Message-ID: Interesting article in yesterday's LA Times about fading bits and software. I think many of you, especially software archivists, would find it on topic and interesting. Billy http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/columnone/la-fi-archive13sep13,1,109 2621.story?coll=la-headlines-columnone&ctrack=1&cset=true From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Sep 14 16:43:45 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:43:45 -0700 Subject: VCF UK Message-ID: David Cantrell wrote: Various 8-bit groups have done this too, although most are now so small that they can't. FWIW, the remnants of WACCI, an Amstrad CPC group that put on a few such events, are having a pub meet in London on the 18th of November (see recent announcement in comp.sys.amstrad.8bit). Even if none of the old organisers turn up, CC and VCFers are most welcome to join us for beer :-) Model railway clubs would probably be good places to look for expertise in running similar events, as many of them hold a yearly exhibition. Typical venues are church halls, schools, and (out of season) non-league or low-division football clubs. I expect there's quite a large cross-over between vintage computing and railway modelling too, which helps a lot - lots of them use BBCs for their control systems. David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age There are many different types of sausages. The best are from the north of England. The wurst are from Germany. -- seen in alt.2eggs... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Some of the better prepared and displayed shows that I remember are the Meccano exhibitions and the traction engine groups. Some of their members had been doing this for 30-40 years. Bet they could offer a lot of help and advice. Your sig file sounds like an old Goon show gag. Billy From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 14 16:58:12 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 17:58:12 -0400 Subject: VCF UK (was:Re: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0) In-Reply-To: <4507FE0C.23714.9AE80ECE@localhost> Message-ID: <000301c6d848$df852e10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>>>> It's a definite plus if you have been involved with other shows, but VCF is more than just some tables and grey boxes atop. VCF is modelled afer a core design that should be followed to produce a VCF, and not any other hobbyist gathering. You're right, that every VCF is special and differs. For one size does influence style - a small event will differ from a large one. Same goes for the venue it is held - an old sports hall will give a diffeent flair than some university rooms or the CHM. The usage of a shooting guilds trophy room for speeches will definitly give a twist compared to an auditorium. And last but equaly important, some parts of the VCF concept might need to be adepted to local circumstances - for example while at the VCF in California the Fleamarket is a large operation, and consignment just a hidden, small part, VCFe emphasis on Consignment as the only chanal for retail. Or, at VCF a well defined system of awards are given to attendees for their exhibitions, in contrast, VCFe only knows a 'Publikumspreis' (visitors choice) as awards. These changes ar part to addapt to different organisation forms, part to adept for law reasons. This flexibility is part of the VCF concept to transfer the core structure and idea into different settings and sets it apart from the dozends of shows for classic computer enthusiasts, that come up every other year. High hopes and low outcome. Beside the VCFe there are only two other non brand specific shows, here in Germany, that made it past the first year. One made it by now into the third year, but the show still fits into a small class room, the other (XzentriX) did just have it's 9th incarnation - sizeing about half of VCFe, but with an total different aproach - a gymn hall setup with tables, where people show up with their stuff and have a great weekend. A very minimalistic contra to VCF if you want - I enjoy it every year :) Again, having experience with other shows is a great plus. Only an aperenticeship (if I may call it that way) for the producer at one of the large VCF is not just a good idea. Furthermore I think Sallam or myself will be glad to help at and arround the event. <<<<<<< ---------------- Again, I second what Hans wrote. VCF is like no other show I've attended, and having every edition follow the format of the California event is the reason why Sellam's franchise has been so successful. A twist we took at VCF East 3.0 (the past two were before my club's involvement) was hosting the event at a historic venue. Our club is based at a science museum which used to be both a Marconi Wireless facility (built in 1912) and, later, it was a U.S. Army secret research base. That definitely added a uniqueness factor. We also had an informal mentoring process for the exhibitors who hadn't previously participated in a VCF -- it's hard to do that if the organizer(s) haven't been to one themselves. The most important factors for the exhibits, which organizers must STRONGLY emphasize, is that they all have a solid theme (vs. just "here's all my stuff") and that appearance and presentation are just as vital as content and research. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 14 17:06:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 15:06:03 -0700 Subject: Losing Your Memories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609141506030273.1F48B462@10.0.0.252> On 9/14/2006 at 2:36 PM Billy Pettit wrote: >Interesting article in yesterday's LA Times about fading bits and >software. >I think many of you, especially software archivists, would find it on topic >and interesting. I wonder how Jaron Lanier feels about being immortalized by the LA Times as "Jason Lanier"? :) I've often thought that although we're generating a lot of knowledge, we're holding it in a leaky bucket. The fact that the only avenue for dissemination for much of it is on the internet is even more of a problem. I've got lots of old bookmarks to sites with valuable information that have long vanished from the web. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 14 17:13:05 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 15:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609141704.35276.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 14, 2006 05:04:35 PM Message-ID: <200609142213.k8EMD5jM007741@onyx.spiritone.com> > Older than my '78 Dodge? :-) Those are likely to be 32V automotive fuses, > and not the 250V variety, though I doubt that'll make much difference. Yes, it's a '72 Dodge. Since it's for a 9V power line, like you say 32V vs. 250V probably won't matter much. But I think I'll try Rat Shack first. If I'd been thinking I probably could have raided my PDP-11 for a fuse last night. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 14 17:00:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 23:00:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teletype lubrication adviceu In-Reply-To: <10609140103.ZM13128@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 14, 6 01:03:36 am Message-ID: > > I'm going to be using my 33ASR at what now seems to be an annual > classic hardware exhibition for Computer Science at York, so a spot of > preventive maintenance seems to be in order. > > I have Vol.1 and Vol.2 of "Bulletin 310B", Technical Manual. Vol.1 is > installation, disassembly/reassembly, lubrication, theory of operation; > Vol.2 is adjustment information (Is there a parts manual anywhere? I'd > like a copy of that...) The parts manual exists, I have it. I only have one copy, though (unlike the Techincal Manual where I have at least 2 of each volume, but different editions IIRC). I might be able to be convinced to make a copy of it. It is, at least, looseleaf... > > It says to lubricate the motor bearings at each end. But mine doesn't > look like it was designed for that. It's a standard (for the UK) > Teletype motor part no. 182267 (115V 50Hz). Are these meant to be > "sealed for life" or is there some way to oil them that I've not > spotted? If this is the normal motor, then it's sort of sealed for life -- the end housings are glued to the stator laminations, It's similar in construction to the RX02 spindle motor IIRC. It can be lubricated, though. Take the motor out of the chassis, remove the fan and the reduction gearing. There's a black plastic cover at each end around the spidnle, these can be prised (pried) off. You can the squirt some oil into the bearings. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 14 17:28:49 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 23:28:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: <200609141412.39032.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 14, 6 02:12:39 pm Message-ID: [Mixing part kits of 2-pack stuff] > > > I'd feel a whole lot better about taking some company's word that this is > > > necessary if they'd say _why_ it is. > > > > I would assume it's because at least one part is not totally homogeneous > > and may partially separate in storage. If you take, say, half of the > > contents of the container you might not be getting half of everything. > > That makes sense as one possible reason. I'd prefer not to have to assume, > though. Well, apart from that, and the 'business' reason (that they sell more kits if you waste most of them), can you think of any other reasons? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 14 17:10:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 23:10:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 14, 6 00:09:32 am Message-ID: > > > How many Amps should the fuse in the C64 be rated for? The fuse I > pulled is a 1.5A 250V fuse, yet "Troubleshooting & Repairing your > Commodore 64" says to use a 1A 250V fuse. A quick bit of googling > seems to indicate that it should be 1.5A. I don't think using the larger fuse will cause any real problems in that any fault that passes enough current to blow a 1A fuse is likely to be a dead short across the 5V lien, and that'll blow the 1.5A fuse too. -tony From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Sep 14 17:53:14 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 17:53:14 -0500 Subject: Losing Your Memories In-Reply-To: <200609141506030273.1F48B462@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060914174528.0d8bf028@localhost> At 03:06 PM 9/14/2006 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 9/14/2006 at 2:36 PM Billy Pettit wrote: > > >Interesting article in yesterday's LA Times about fading bits and > >software. > >I think many of you, especially software archivists, would find it on >topic > >and interesting. > >I wonder how Jaron Lanier feels about being immortalized by the LA Times as >"Jason Lanier"? :) > >I've often thought that although we're generating a lot of knowledge, we're >holding it in a leaky bucket. The fact that the only avenue for >dissemination for much of it is on the internet is even more of a problem. >I've got lots of old bookmarks to sites with valuable information that have >long vanished from the web. Oh, this is so weird. Not 45 seconds after reading this email, a magazine addressed to my son showed up, with a column titled "Jaron's World." This issue's column was "The Murder of Mystery: How Silicon Valley joined the superstitious fringe as the enemy of open inquiry. " The magazine is called Discover: Science, Technology, and the Future. [Responsibility] We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions. --Ronald Reagan --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 14 18:43:03 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Sep 14, 2006 11:10:17 PM Message-ID: <200609142343.k8ENh30Y014564@onyx.spiritone.com> > > How many Amps should the fuse in the C64 be rated for? The fuse I > > pulled is a 1.5A 250V fuse, yet "Troubleshooting & Repairing your > > Commodore 64" says to use a 1A 250V fuse. A quick bit of googling > > seems to indicate that it should be 1.5A. > > I don't think using the larger fuse will cause any real problems in that > any fault that passes enough current to blow a 1A fuse is likely to be a > dead short across the 5V lien, and that'll blow the 1.5A fuse too. > > -tony > This was a short of the 9VAC to ground :^( It definitely blew the 1.5A fuse. Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 14 19:02:57 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 20:02:57 -0400 Subject: Disk drive 50 years old today (305 RAMAC) In-Reply-To: <45099D38.6000907@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> <45099D38.6000907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > CIRCUIT ELEMENTS OF ENTIRE SYSTEM > Manufacturer > Type Quantity > Tubes > 5919 626 Typo - 626 type 5919 tubes would have consumed more power than a small city. It is an upgraded 895, for you tube geeks. Probably should be 5814A. -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 14 19:20:08 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 20:20:08 -0400 Subject: Losing Your Memories In-Reply-To: <200609141506030273.1F48B462@10.0.0.252> References: <200609141506030273.1F48B462@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609142020.08764.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 14 September 2006 06:06 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've often thought that although we're generating a lot of knowledge, we're > holding it in a leaky bucket. Nice descriptive phrase there... > The fact that the only avenue for dissemination for much of it is on the > internet is even more of a problem. I've got lots of old bookmarks to sites > with valuable information that have long vanished from the web. That's why when I want to keep some info I normally tend to make a local archival copy of the pages in question. Which is also why I really need to get around to installing another HD in my server... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 14 19:21:06 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 20:21:06 -0400 Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609142213.k8EMD5jM007741@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609142213.k8EMD5jM007741@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200609142021.06027.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 14 September 2006 06:13 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Older than my '78 Dodge? :-) Those are likely to be 32V automotive > > fuses, and not the 250V variety, though I doubt that'll make much > > difference. > > Yes, it's a '72 Dodge. Good brand. 318? > Since it's for a 9V power line, like you say 32V vs. 250V probably won't > matter much. Nope. > But I think I'll try Rat Shack first. If I'd been thinking I probably could > have raided my PDP-11 for a fuse last night. The auto parts store probably won't have much in the smaller sizes anyhow. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 14 20:24:08 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:24:08 -0400 Subject: Odd external Amiga floppy drive Message-ID: <010901c6d865$a5e45920$0b01a8c0@game> I got an ebay find in the mail today, an external floppy drive with a port for another floppy. The odd thing about this drive is that the cable going to it is 25 pin while the connector on the back for an additional drive is the normal 23 pin variety. I opened the case up and found a Citizen OSDC-45C drive which I believe is a 720K DD drive along with a circuit board populated with a cap, some other small caps, and 2 chips (Tesla MH7438 and HD 74LS74AP OL15). My original idea was to swap out the 720K drive and install a 1.44MB PC one for a Planar Cleanscreen 486 LCD system I have (plus do some rewiring as needed), but I wonder what this drive is actually for. Any ideas? From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 14 21:34:04 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 19:34:04 -0700 Subject: VAX PASCAL tape In-Reply-To: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200609141017.k8EAH00G012609@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <450A111C.4060402@sbcglobal.net> I have a 9 track tape labeled: BB-Z912P-BE VAX PASCAL V4.0 BIN 16MT9 SAVESET:PASCAL040 Copyright 1990 also has: 000MUB5077 Any interest? Otherwise, I will use it as a blank tape. Bob From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Sep 14 15:18:45 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:18:45 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4509B925.1010908@gjcp.net> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Due to an urgent need for more space, I'd like to know if anyone > would be interested in taking ALL of the following off my hands. > > Doesn't have to be one person - feel free to club together with Drat. I've just driven up from Harrogate with a half-empty van. /me adds "Hassle office to get me a GPRS card" to the Todo list. Gordon. From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Fri Sep 15 03:13:21 2006 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 01:13:21 -0700 Subject: VAX PASCAL tape In-Reply-To: <450A111C.4060402@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000c01c6d89e$d109ca70$6401a8c0@caladan> Bob, The folks over at the UCSD Pascal Yahoo group (UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com) might be interested. david. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 7:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: VAX PASCAL tape > > I have a 9 track tape labeled: > > BB-Z912P-BE > VAX PASCAL V4.0 BIN 16MT9 > SAVESET:PASCAL040 > > Copyright 1990 > > also has: > 000MUB5077 > > Any interest? Otherwise, I will use it as a blank tape. > > Bob > From fryers at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 04:21:17 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 10:21:17 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: <4509B925.1010908@gjcp.net> References: <4509B925.1010908@gjcp.net> Message-ID: All, I am interested in a couple of the items, but there is no way I can collect/store/process this. I have an estate car and am willing to drive up from Swindon, but my the people I live with are not so understanding about old computers. Anyone else in the UK interested in some of these items? Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Sep 15 05:53:00 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF 9.0 hotel room block now available Message-ID: I've established a hotel room block for VCF 9.0: http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/lodging.php Room rate is $99. They have very nice rooms with excellent amenities. I'm working on another block at another local hotel at a lower rate ($79) with similar amenities. Will update as soon as it's confirmed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 08:47:28 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:47:28 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 37, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: <200609150622.k8F6MAok087918@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609150622.k8F6MAok087918@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4affc5e0609150647m775c5206p801b7e62f7d334a2@mail.gmail.com> > > From: "Teo Zenios" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:24:08 -0400 > Subject: Odd external Amiga floppy drive > I got an ebay find in the mail today, an external floppy drive with a port > for another floppy. The odd thing about this drive is that the cable going > to it is 25 pin while the connector on the back for an additional drive is > the normal 23 pin variety. > > I opened the case up and found a Citizen OSDC-45C drive which I believe is > a 720K DD drive along with a circuit board populated with a cap, some other > small caps, and 2 chips (Tesla MH7438 and HD 74LS74AP OL15). > > My original idea was to swap out the 720K drive and install a 1.44MB PC > one for a Planar Cleanscreen 486 LCD system I have (plus do some rewiring as > needed), but I wonder what this drive is actually for. > > Any ideas? Ummm, is it for an Amiga? It may be a third-party amiga drive (can you post a picture, maybe - a link to the orig. Epay auction would do if it has a picture). Regular floppy drives could be used on the Amiga floppy port with the addition of a latch (which is what the extra circuit board contains). (I think the original Amiga external floppy drives (A1010) had a modified drive thus not needing the extra latch) Is the cable going to it really 25 pins? It was common for Amiga floppy drives to be chainable (thus all connectors 23 pin), so you could have up to 4 drives total. Joe. From ohh at drizzle.com Fri Sep 15 09:05:46 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 07:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Mixing part kits of 2-pack stuff] > > > > I'd feel a whole lot better about taking some company's word that > > > > this is necessary if they'd say _why_ it is. > > > > > > I would assume it's because at least one part is not totally > > > homogeneous and may partially separate in storage. If you take, say, > > > half of the contents of the container you might not be getting half > > > of everything. > > > > That makes sense as one possible reason. I'd prefer not to have to > > assume, though. > > Well, apart from that, and the 'business' reason (that they sell more > kits if you waste most of them), can you think of any other reasons? I've worked with a number of 2-part molding and casting supplies, mostly urethanes and variations on RTV rubber, and they're often sensitive to oxygen and/or atmospheric moisture: once you open the factory seal, they start a slow chemical change unless you can stop the effect (say by displacing the air: http://www.smooth-on.com/rubbaccess.asp#xtend for example). I'd suspect the company's saying "mix the entire product all at once" may be based on something like this. (The fact that you end up using it up faster is doubtless a benefit in their eyes, too.) But, yes, unless the manufacturer will _tell_ you what's going on, this would only be a guess. :) ...ObClassicCmp: If you're looking at casting replicas of various small plastic pieces for no-longer-manufactured items, a look through smooth-on.com will likely give you useful ideas and a place to buy useful materials. I _like_ toys which give you the capability of building more toys. :) :) -O.- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 15 10:50:55 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:50:55 -0600 Subject: VCF 9.0 hotel room block now available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450ACBDF.3050106@jetnet.ab.ca> Sellam Ismail wrote: > I'm working on another block at another local hotel at a lower rate ($79) > with similar amenities. Will update as soon as it's confirmed. I suspect parking for large vans or trucks will be the up-coming problem as people are demo-ing or buying larger and larger computers. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 15 10:53:55 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:53:55 -0700 Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609142021.06027.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609142213.k8EMD5jM007741@onyx.spiritone.com> <200609142021.06027.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 8:21 PM -0400 9/14/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Thursday 14 September 2006 06:13 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> > Older than my '78 Dodge? :-) Those are likely to be 32V automotive >> > fuses, and not the 250V variety, though I doubt that'll make much >> > difference. >> >> Yes, it's a '72 Dodge. > >Good brand. 318? No clue, it's runs and has 8 cylinders. :^) I have a shade-tree mechanic that worries about the details. :^) > > Since it's for a 9V power line, like you say 32V vs. 250V probably won't > > matter much. > >Nope. > >> But I think I'll try Rat Shack first. If I'd been thinking I probably could >> have raided my PDP-11 for a fuse last night. > >The auto parts store probably won't have much in the smaller sizes anyhow. The 250V 1.5A Fast Blow fuse did the trick, and the computer appears to be working again. Didn't really have time to play with it last night, other than to get it working and play a game of Missile Command. I do not like the new fuse packaging. I like the old fashioned little boxes. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 15 12:28:54 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:28:54 +0000 Subject: Odd external Amiga floppy drive In-Reply-To: <010901c6d865$a5e45920$0b01a8c0@game> References: <010901c6d865$a5e45920$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <450AE2D6.6060806@yahoo.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > I got an ebay find in the mail today, an external floppy drive with a > port for another floppy. The odd thing about this drive is that the cable > going to it is 25 pin while the connector on the back for an additional > drive is the normal 23 pin variety. That is odd. Did anything other than an external floppy drive ever use the Amiga's floppy connector? If so, I wonder if they did it that way because the 25-way connector saved a bit of money, but they still wanted to present a 23-way connector to the 'outside world' for compatibility. Actually, didn't the Amiga support four floppy drives anyway, so maybe the 23-way is there for plugging in additional drives from other vendors... > > I opened the case up and found a Citizen OSDC-45C drive which I believe is > a 720K DD drive along with a circuit board populated with a cap, some > other small caps, and 2 chips (Tesla MH7438 and HD 74LS74AP OL15). I seem to remember building a little circuit many years ago to add a stock PC-compatible 720K drive to the Amiga - much cheaper than buying a 'proper' Amiga external drive! I seem to recall that being a couple of chips, one of which was a LS74. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 15 12:38:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:38:03 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <4509B925.1010908@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <450AE4FB.2040307@yahoo.co.uk> Simon Fryer wrote: > All, > > I am interested in a couple of the items, but there is no way I can > collect/store/process this. I have an estate car and am willing to > drive up from Swindon, but my the people I live with are not so > understanding about old computers. If you do happen to go up there, it's perhaps worth rescuing the Tek hard-sectored disks for the museum; that's assuming that nobody has a more pressing need for them (and their contents!), of course - I just wouldn't want to see them go to landfill. Small hard disks (particularly SCSI rather than IDE) are also worth rescuing if nobody else wants them. Oh, I believe we're short a few Sun type 4 keyboards for all of our Sun kit (assuming the ten that were listed don't belong with the machines that were also listed :-) The UPS would be darn handy for the couple of new servers that have been put into action recently... cheers Jules From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 15 13:07:16 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 14:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060915180716.90A9257EDA@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > The 250V 1.5A Fast Blow fuse did the trick, and the computer appears > to be working again. Didn't really have time to play with it last > night, other than to get it working and play a game of Missile > Command. > With a Wico trackball, right? ;) Cheers, Bryan P.S. Speaking of "different" controllers, has anybody wired up an arcade quality spinner or trackball (by themselves) to use with a C64 or other similar system? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 15 13:11:51 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF 9.0 hotel room block now available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060915110534.X65562@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I've established a hotel room block for VCF 9.0: > http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/lodging.php > Room rate is $99. They have very nice rooms with excellent amenities. > I'm working on another block at another local hotel at a lower rate ($79) > with similar amenities. Will update as soon as it's confirmed. Adam Osborne: (v) to make an announcement, and simultaneously destroy thatannouncement by mentioning something better coming soon; cf "shoot in the foot" (really miss him and his style) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 15 14:15:40 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <20060915180716.90A9257EDA@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Sep 15, 2006 02:07:16 PM Message-ID: <200609151915.k8FJFe5B017317@onyx.spiritone.com> > And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > > > The 250V 1.5A Fast Blow fuse did the trick, and the computer appears > > to be working again. Didn't really have time to play with it last > > night, other than to get it working and play a game of Missile > > Command. > > > > With a Wico trackball, right? ;) With a Epyx 500XJ :^( BTW, this stick gets my vote for worst ever. My wife compared it to the original US X-Box controllers (we had to get her the smaller Japanese controller). > Cheers, > > Bryan > > P.S. Speaking of "different" controllers, has anybody wired up an > arcade quality spinner or trackball (by themselves) to use with > a C64 or other similar system? Good question, I'd love an arcade quality spinner, though I think it would be better as a MAME interface. The C64 port of Missle Command I have is fun, but the controls seemed really slow. One of my books details making your own Joysticks and paddles. They have a design for a "motion controlled" stick using mercury switches that looks rather interesting, but I have to question how practical it is. Zane From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 15 14:41:19 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609151915.k8FJFe5B017317@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060915194119.5F0B158040@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > > And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > > > > > The 250V 1.5A Fast Blow fuse did the trick, and the computer appears > > > to be working again. Didn't really have time to play with it last > > > night, other than to get it working and play a game of Missile > > > Command. > > > > > > > With a Wico trackball, right? ;) > > With a Epyx 500XJ :^( BTW, this stick gets my vote for worst ever. My wife > compared it to the original US X-Box controllers (we had to get her the > smaller Japanese controller). > What?!? You don't like the 500XJ?! That is my fav joystick (along with the Wico one that looks like it but is covered in soft grey rubber). The only problem I had with the 500XJ was one of the pieces inside breaking that holds the switch assembly in place after furious joystick waggiing.. I loved how it fits your hand so well. > > Cheers, > > > > Bryan > > > > P.S. Speaking of "different" controllers, has anybody wired up an > > arcade quality spinner or trackball (by themselves) to use with > > a C64 or other similar system? > > Good question, I'd love an arcade quality spinner, though I think it would > be better as a MAME interface. The C64 port of Missle Command I have is > fun, but the controls seemed really slow. One of my books details making > your own Joysticks and paddles. They have a design for a "motion > controlled" stick using mercury switches that looks rather interesting, but > I have to question how practical it is. > I think there was a motion controlled stick available at the time but I am not sure how well it worked... Plus I think you would lose the feed back you get from a normal joysick. Wouldn't an interface for the spinner to a C64 be simpler then a MAME inteface (USB?) since for the C64 you would just be hooking up the POT X/Y? Cheers, Bryan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 15 15:13:29 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 13:13:29 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? Message-ID: > Various old media (including some hard-sectored 8" floppes which I > think belong to something Tektronix) It would be nice if someone could save these. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 15 15:40:55 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:40:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Odd external Amiga floppy drive Message-ID: <200609152040.k8FKetSq035439@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > > I got an ebay find in the mail today, an externa l > floppy drive with a > > port for another floppy. The odd thing about th is > drive is that the cable > > going to it is 25 pin while the connector on th e > back for an additional > > drive is the normal 23 pin variety. > > That is odd. Did anything other than an external > floppy drive ever use the > Amiga's floppy connector? If so, I wonder if they > did it that way because the > 25-way connector saved a bit of money, but they > still wanted to present a > 23-way connector to the 'outside world' for > compatibility. Actually, didn't > the Amiga support four floppy drives anyway, so > maybe the 23-way is there for > plugging in additional drives from other vendors.. . > >> snip << > > cheers > > Jules > I don't think anything else used the external floppy connector. The Vidi Amiga (capture TV/video i mage on the Amiga), Turbo Sound whatsit (I forget it's name but does the same as Vidi Amiga, but for sound) and the hand scanner I have all used the serial or parallel port to connect to my Amiga. Yes, you can connect 3 external disk drives. The drives are known as DF0: (internal) and DF1: to DF3: (external) by the system. You can also (theoretically) have 4 harddrives connected aswell, or (like I have) one large one split into 4 partitions. Known as DH0: to DH3: unless you leave them unmodified (like I had) in which case they will be known as TDH0: to TDH3: Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 15 15:46:15 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 13:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <20060915194119.5F0B158040@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Sep 15, 2006 03:41:19 PM Message-ID: <200609152046.k8FKkFRv019566@onyx.spiritone.com> > What?!? You don't like the 500XJ?! That is my fav joystick > (along with the Wico one that looks like it but is covered in soft > grey rubber). The only problem I had with the 500XJ was one of the > pieces inside breaking that holds the switch assembly in place after > furious joystick waggiing.. I loved how it fits your hand so well. Hate it. Hate the way it fits my hand. I still haven't found my good Wico ones (the ones with the long red stick). I might just see about heading up to storage, yet again, this weekend to look. At least it shoudl be a lot cooler up there as the weather has improved. After playing Overloard/Supremacy on the C64, I really want to get my A500 back out :^) The interesting thing is, that game felt faster on my C64 than the PC version ever did on my 386sx/16 and 486dx/33! > I think there was a motion controlled stick available at the > time but I am not sure how well it worked... Plus I think you would > lose the feed back you get from a normal joysick. You loose the feedback and just think about your hand getting bumped by someone (or even sneezing). > Wouldn't an interface for the spinner to a C64 be simpler > then a MAME inteface (USB?) since for the C64 you would just be > hooking up the POT X/Y? No idea, haven't looked into either. I do rather like the one I have for the Atari 5200 :^) Zane From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Fri Sep 15 16:07:50 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:07:50 -0500 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: <20060915180716.90A9257EDA@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) > >P.S. Speaking of "different" controllers, has anybody wired up an >arcade quality spinner or trackball (by themselves) to use with >a C64 or other similar system? > About 15 years ago I wired a number of Happ Control Atari arcade trackballs to generic PC mice to use in exhibits at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago. These trackballs use a pair of optical sensors on both the X and Y axes, like the mice did, so I desoldered the sensors from the mouse circuit board and ran wires to the sensors on the trackballs, bypassing the rest of the circuit on the trackball. Worked fine. Happ now sells interface units for PC's. I kept the "prototype" unit for myself, and used it for 10 years before having to clean the rollers and lube the bearings for the first time. I don't use it now because the laptop I have does not have a serial port. Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 15 16:51:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:51:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: from "O. Sharp" at Sep 15, 6 07:05:46 am Message-ID: > > > > I would assume it's because at least one part is not totally > > > > homogeneous and may partially separate in storage. If you take, say, > > > > half of the contents of the container you might not be getting half > > > > of everything. > > > > > > That makes sense as one possible reason. I'd prefer not to have to > > > assume, though. > > > > Well, apart from that, and the 'business' reason (that they sell more > > kits if you waste most of them), can you think of any other reasons? > > I've worked with a number of 2-part molding and casting supplies, mostly > urethanes and variations on RTV rubber, and they're often sensitive to > oxygen and/or atmospheric moisture: once you open the factory seal, they Good suggestion. I don't recall there being anything in the instructions about this, though, and there were no seals on the contains (obviously there were lids with rubber washers, but nothing about not removing them before you mix the stuff). Incidentally, do you have any experience of the 2-pack 'synthetic rubbers' that Devcon (and others) make? I may well need to use such a product to make a roller (for a classic computer -- an HP9820's internal printer), and I do need to mix small amounts. The smallest Devxon pack I can get over here is something like 500g, and costs \pounds 30.00. I am going to go broke very quickly if I have to pay that out for every test run (I know it won''t work first time). -tony From austin at ozpass.co.uk Fri Sep 15 10:45:20 2006 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:45:20 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14/9/06 20:14, "listmailgoeshere at gmail.com" wrote: > Due to an urgent need for more space, I'd like to know if anyone > would be interested in taking ALL of the following off my hands. > > Doesn't have to be one person - feel free to club together with > whoever you feel like if you can arrange it fairly quickly. I just > don't want to ship individual bits of this or that to the four corners > of the globe - I don't have time :( > > [SNIP] I?d make house room for all the Sun stuff if anyone wants to go in with me on the rest. I live near Oldham, so not too far a drag regarding collection. -Austin. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 15 17:21:02 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Sep 2006, Robert Feldman wrote: > >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) > > > >P.S. Speaking of "different" controllers, has anybody wired up an > >arcade quality spinner or trackball (by themselves) to use with > >a C64 or other similar system? > > > > About 15 years ago I wired a number of Happ Control Atari arcade trackballs > to generic PC mice to use in exhibits at the Field Museum of Natural History > in Chicago. These trackballs use a pair of optical sensors on both the X and > Y axes, like the mice did, so I desoldered the sensors from the mouse > circuit board and ran wires to the sensors on the trackballs, bypassing the > rest of the circuit on the trackball. Worked fine. Happ now sells interface > units for PC's. > > I kept the "prototype" unit for myself, and used it for 10 years before > having to clean the rollers and lube the bearings for the first time. I > don't use it now because the laptop I have does not have a serial port. There's a line of gizmos with names that include the string "ipac" which are intended for interfacing arcade controls with PCs in various ways. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ohh at drizzle.com Fri Sep 15 17:26:43 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoth Tony Duell: > Incidentally, do you have any experience of the 2-pack 'synthetic > rubbers' that Devcon (and others) make? I may well need to use such a > product to make a roller (for a classic computer -- an HP9820's internal > printer), and I do need to mix small amounts. The smallest Devxon pack I > can get over here is something like 500g, and costs \pounds 30.00. I am > going to go broke very quickly if I have to pay that out for every test > run (I know it won''t work first time). I've worked with silicone RTV rubber. For molding/casting it has excellent properties for holding small detail, releasing cleanly from pretty much ANY material that isn't itself, and lasting for multiple pours; it's also done a good job staying stable in the container for long periods (read: 4-6 months) even after opening (so it can be used a little at a time), and have never had a mold lose any stability at all once the RTV had cured. Having said that, I've never tried it for applications like printer rollers, rubber capstans and such. Whether its hardness or other properties would be suitable for that, I can't say; but I do think it would be worth a try. If you do try it, let me know what happens. My only advice: Whatever you cast it in, make sure that cast is completely free of oils, grease, sulfur-based modeling clay (though "Sculpey" is okay) or latex. It'll prevent the stuff from curing, leaving you with either A) something a bit too unstable to use or B) one hell of a mess. :/ Presumably the people at Devcon will have some documentation for their stuff which can be downloaded (and if they don't, try www.smooth-on.com; they do for their products). -O.- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 15 17:41:32 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: <200609152046.k8FKkFRv019566@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 15, 6 01:46:15 pm" Message-ID: <200609152241.k8FMfWmg018080@floodgap.com> > I still haven't found my good Wico ones (the ones with the long red stick). Yeah, I like the Wico ones too. You can't have mine, nyah. :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If your troubles are deep seated and of long-standing, try kneeling. ------- From rcini at optonline.net Fri Sep 15 17:38:08 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 18:38:08 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <20060910123902.N95480@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <004201c6d917$9f1c1210$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Ok, I got the CompuPro Disk 1 controller last night and have a quick question about configuring it. The card can handle both 8" and 5.25" drives, and the plan is to use a 5.25" 1.2mb PC drive as a substitute for the 8" drive (I only have access to 8" disk images). Now, when I do this, do I leave the jumpers on the card configured for the 8" drive but use the 5.25" interface connector, or do I have to configure the jumpers for a 5.25" drive? I'm thinking leave it for 8" except to the extent that the jumper had to do with swapping signals on the drive interface connector. Thoughts? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behaf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 3:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > > I looked at the CompuPro disk image on Dave Dunfield's site and it's > >for an 8" drive. The defining thing for me is getting a CP/M 2.2 image in > >5.25" format. I've found another controller, from CCS (California Computer > >Systems) that might work, too. So does anyone have a 5.25" CP/M 80 image for > >either of these two boards? DSDD 8" should fit just fine on "1.2M" 5.25" On Sun, 10 Sep 2006, Allison wrote: > All my CCS disks are 8" I'd have to look to see if the controller even did > 5.25 it's been so long. I do remember the CCS used a banking scheme that > didn't agree with most of my systems. CCS did have some 5.25" disk formats (both 48tpi and 96tpi) supported. I have no idea whether they ever used them as boot disks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 15 18:37:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:37:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: from "O. Sharp" at Sep 15, 6 03:26:43 pm Message-ID: > I've worked with silicone RTV rubber. For molding/casting it has My only experience of RTV is as the 'gasket replacement' stuff. It works well for that, but that grade would be far too soft to make a roller. > excellent properties for holding small detail, releasing cleanly from > pretty much ANY material that isn't itself, and lasting for multiple The Devcon stuff is a 2-pack -- adter mixing it lasts for 30 minutes (according to the data sheet I've read) and cures fully in 24 hours. They also sell a mould release agent to coat the mould with, and a primer to coat things you do want it to stick to (in my application I do want it to stick to the spindle). They specifically mention 'transport rollers' as a possible application, My main concern is that I know I'll have problems the first few times. Maybe I'll misdesign the mould, or be unable to get the part out, or whatever. The roller in question is about 3" lon and 1/2" in diameter, a lot less than one kit's worth of stuff. And I simply can't afford a complete kit for every attempt. IO've read the book 'How to cast small metal and rubber parts' (or some similar title). The authors say that Devcon used to recomend mixing part-kits, but now recomend against it. But that it should still be OK. -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 15 19:54:53 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:54:53 -0700 Subject: Several IBM PC/RTs and peripherals available Message-ID: <200609151754.54177.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I was just contacted by a vendor who says he has the following available: 6 tower units IBM PC/RT (model #6150), with keyboard/mouse and monitors, plus several boxes of peripherals, CPU, FPU and other interface cards, several boxes of ESDI hard disks (several new, in box), and many boxes of software and manuals. If you are interested in this lot, please email me privately with an offer and I'll pass in on to the vendor. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 15 20:04:21 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Supremacy (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: <200609152046.k8FKkFRv019566@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060916010421.D3F8C58258@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > Hate it. Hate the way it fits my hand. I still haven't found my good Wico > ones (the ones with the long red stick). I might just see about heading up > to storage, yet again, this weekend to look. At least it shoudl be a lot > cooler up there as the weather has improved. > That is the reason I like the 500XJ soo much - cause it fits my hand so perfectly! But the Wico bat is nice too - just not sure which button is the best to use, the one on the base or the end of the bat? And speaking of storage, I just moved into a much bigger place then I was before so no I am moving all of my stuff that is in storage to my new place... But I am finding I have more stuff then I though I did! :( > After playing Overloard/Supremacy on the C64, I really want to get my A500 > back out :^) The interesting thing is, that game felt faster on my C64 than > the PC version ever did on my 386sx/16 and 486dx/33! > I have only played Supremacy on the Amiga... It was soo fun to pump up your men before attacking the planet, then lessening their aggression level as the battle wore on. > > I think there was a motion controlled stick available at the > > time but I am not sure how well it worked... Plus I think you would > > lose the feed back you get from a normal joysick. > > You loose the feedback and just think about your hand getting bumped by > someone (or even sneezing). > Quite useful when you are trying to get under the Marshmallow man at the end of Ghostbusters! ;) > > Wouldn't an interface for the spinner to a C64 be simpler > > then a MAME inteface (USB?) since for the C64 you would just be > > hooking up the POT X/Y? > > No idea, haven't looked into either. I do rather like the one I have for > the Atari 5200 :^) > I have an Atari 5200, but I don't think I have any controllers *or* power supply. :( And from what I have read, the power supply for it is special and does double duty. But I believe there are plans on the internet that show you how to make your own supply for it. Cheers, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 15 20:12:03 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060916011203.66424581C1@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by David Griffith > > On Fri, 15 Sep 2006, Robert Feldman wrote: > > > >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) > > > > > >P.S. Speaking of "different" controllers, has anybody wired up an > > >arcade quality spinner or trackball (by themselves) to use with > > >a C64 or other similar system? > > > > > > > About 15 years ago I wired a number of Happ Control Atari arcade trackballs > > to generic PC mice to use in exhibits at the Field Museum of Natural History > > in Chicago. These trackballs use a pair of optical sensors on both the X and > > Y axes, like the mice did, so I desoldered the sensors from the mouse > > circuit board and ran wires to the sensors on the trackballs, bypassing the > > rest of the circuit on the trackball. Worked fine. Happ now sells interface > > units for PC's. > > > > I kept the "prototype" unit for myself, and used it for 10 years before > > having to clean the rollers and lube the bearings for the first time. I > > don't use it now because the laptop I have does not have a serial port. > > There's a line of gizmos with names that include the string "ipac" which > are intended for interfacing arcade controls with PCs in various ways. > But I would like to use the same trackball or spinner directly hooked up to my Commodore 64... (and then other times to my PC to play Centipede or Arkanoid) Cheers, Bryan From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Sep 15 21:28:38 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:28:38 -0500 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <004201c6d917$9f1c1210$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <20060910123902.N95480@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609160132.k8G1WQ2j031705@hosting.monisys.ca> > Ok, I got the CompuPro Disk 1 controller last night and have a quick > question about configuring it. The card can handle both 8" and 5.25" drives, > and the plan is to use a 5.25" 1.2mb PC drive as a substitute for the 8" > drive (I only have access to 8" disk images). > > Now, when I do this, do I leave the jumpers on the card configured for the > 8" drive but use the 5.25" interface connector, or do I have to configure > the jumpers for a 5.25" drive? I'm thinking leave it for 8" except to the > extent that the jumper had to do with swapping signals on the drive > interface connector. > > Thoughts? Normally when replacing an 8" with a 5.25" HD, I would simply leave the system configured for an 8" drive and make an adapter to connect the 5.25" drive to the 8" connector - I have not looked at this in detail, however as long as you can set jumpers to connect the right signals to the right places on the 5.25" connector it should work. Just make sure the signals are the same ones that would go the the 8" Drive (no extra conditioning etc.) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From rcini at optonline.net Fri Sep 15 20:37:35 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:37:35 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609160132.k8G1WQ2j031705@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <000601c6d930$aff64dd0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Gotcha. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > Ok, I got the CompuPro Disk 1 controller last night and have a quick > question about configuring it. The card can handle both 8" and 5.25" drives, > and the plan is to use a 5.25" 1.2mb PC drive as a substitute for the 8" > drive (I only have access to 8" disk images). > > Now, when I do this, do I leave the jumpers on the card configured for the > 8" drive but use the 5.25" interface connector, or do I have to configure > the jumpers for a 5.25" drive? I'm thinking leave it for 8" except to the > extent that the jumper had to do with swapping signals on the drive > interface connector. > > Thoughts? Normally when replacing an 8" with a 5.25" HD, I would simply leave the system configured for an 8" drive and make an adapter to connect the 5.25" drive to the 8" connector - I have not looked at this in detail, however as long as you can set jumpers to connect the right signals to the right places on the 5.25" connector it should work. Just make sure the signals are the same ones that would go the the 8" Drive (no extra conditioning etc.) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cannings at earthlink.net Fri Sep 15 21:23:10 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:23:10 -0700 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) References: Message-ID: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000> > >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) > > > >P.S. Speaking of "different" controllers, has anybody wired up an > >arcade quality spinner or trackball (by themselves) to use with > >a C64 or other similar system? > > > > About 15 years ago I wired a number of Happ Control Atari arcade trackballs > to generic PC mice to use in exhibits at the Field Museum of Natural History > in Chicago. These trackballs use a pair of optical sensors on both the X and > Y axes, like the mice did, so I desoldered the sensors from the mouse > circuit board and ran wires to the sensors on the trackballs, bypassing the > rest of the circuit on the trackball. Worked fine. Happ now sells interface > units for PC's. > > I kept the "prototype" unit for myself, and used it for 10 years before > having to clean the rollers and lube the bearings for the first time. I > don't use it now because the laptop I have does not have a serial port. > > Bob A little trackball trivia to show you what a chicken-shit company Atari was while they were under the Warner Bros Corporation umbrella. They ( Atari ) contacted a company in New York ( Orbit Instruments ) who held the patent and produced military trackballs used in the tactical display consoles on AEGIS Cruisers and Destroyers. Atari wanted a controller for the arcade version of Missile Command that some asshole kid couldn't break off or destroy ( like they could a joystick ). A deal was struck and Orbit " shared " their proprietary design with the Atari engineers. A long period of time passed and the Missile Command arcade games started showing up in malls around the country with a " patented " trackball controller installed. Orbit called Atari because this was a blatant patent infringement. Atari laughed and said they had 20 corporate lawyers sitting around with nothing to do that would just love to tie this up in the courts until Orbit ran out of money. This is why I think patents are a joke unless you have tons of cash to protect it. And the lawyers lived happily thereafter .... Best regards, Steven From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Sep 15 22:21:56 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:21:56 -0400 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com> Where did you get this "trivia" from? Curt > > A little trackball trivia to show you what a chicken-shit company Atari was > while they were under the Warner Bros Corporation umbrella. They ( Atari ) > contacted a company in New York ( Orbit Instruments ) who held the patent > and produced military trackballs used in the tactical display consoles on > AEGIS Cruisers and Destroyers. Atari wanted a controller for the arcade > version of Missile Command that some asshole kid couldn't break off or > destroy ( like they could a joystick ). A deal was struck and Orbit " > shared " their proprietary design with the Atari engineers. A long period of > time passed and the Missile Command arcade games started showing up in malls > around the country with a " patented " trackball controller installed. Orbit > called Atari because this was a blatant patent infringement. Atari laughed > and said they had 20 corporate lawyers sitting around with nothing to do > that would just love to tie this up in the courts until Orbit ran out of > money. This is why I think patents are a joke unless you have tons of cash > to protect it. And the lawyers lived happily thereafter .... > > Best regards, Steven > > > > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 22:43:25 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:43:25 -0400 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: <450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com> References: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000> <450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Where did you get this "trivia" from? Sounds pretty fishy - I think the patent on the trackball would have expired by the time Missile Command came out. -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 15 23:23:59 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:23:59 -0400 Subject: C64 Fuse? In-Reply-To: References: <200609142213.k8EMD5jM007741@onyx.spiritone.com> <200609142021.06027.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609160023.59973.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 15 September 2006 11:53 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:21 PM -0400 9/14/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >On Thursday 14 September 2006 06:13 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> > Older than my '78 Dodge? :-) Those are likely to be 32V automotive > >> > fuses, and not the 250V variety, though I doubt that'll make much > >> > difference. > >> > >> Yes, it's a '72 Dodge. > > > >Good brand. 318? > > No clue, it's runs and has 8 cylinders. :^) I have a shade-tree > mechanic that worries about the details. :^) Ah. > > > Since it's for a 9V power line, like you say 32V vs. 250V probably > > > won't matter much. > > > >Nope. > > > >> But I think I'll try Rat Shack first. If I'd been thinking I probably > >> could have raided my PDP-11 for a fuse last night. > > > >The auto parts store probably won't have much in the smaller sizes anyhow. > > The 250V 1.5A Fast Blow fuse did the trick, and the computer appears > to be working again. Didn't really have time to play with it last > night, other than to get it working and play a game of Missile > Command. > > I do not like the new fuse packaging. I like the old fashioned little > boxes. Those little slide-open boxes? That's why I never throw any of them away, though some of the ones I have are labeled with slightly different values than what came in them orignally. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 15 23:25:22 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:25:22 -0400 Subject: VCF 9.0 hotel room block now available In-Reply-To: <20060915110534.X65562@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060915110534.X65562@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609160025.22387.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 15 September 2006 02:11 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: > Adam Osborne: (v) to make an announcement, and simultaneously > destroy thatannouncement by mentioning something better coming soon; > cf "shoot in the foot" > > (really miss him and his style) :-) The one and only time I made it to the big computer thingy at Trenton there was a talk there about that very thing, which was quite entertaining... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 15 23:31:49 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:31:49 -0400 Subject: odd jumpers Message-ID: <200609160031.49724.rtellason@verizon.net> A part of my salvaging has me with these odd little jumpers, where the pins are not on the board but on the jumper. Since the "sockets" that these plugged into were not salvageable, and since I don't (as far as I know) have anything that uses these, they're superfluous to my needs. I haven't counted them, but if any of you guys have a need for some of these feel free to contact me off-list, I'm sure it wouldn't take much postage to get a few in an envelope... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 15 23:35:56 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:35:56 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner Message-ID: <200609160035.56925.rtellason@verizon.net> I've been going crazy here trying to get a burner working. One flat-out won't see a disc, even though I bought that one brand new (though that was a while ago and I made the mistake of continually using it for a CDROM drive as well), another one has mechanical problems, and then there's this external unit... It's a Yamaha CRW4260tx. I don't have a cable to connect from it to the Adaptec 2940 card that's installed in the machine. I currently have a 50-pin cable running from the inside connector on the Adaptec card to the internal connector on the drive (with its cover off). I'd like to put the drive in the box. Right now for both device number and termination these functions are handled by the external drive's box, on the rear panel. Can any of you guys help me with whether jumpers need to be _on_ or _off_ a pair of pins to make termination happen and to assign a device number? I'd measure it with a meter but don't have any handy means to get into those connectors at the moment... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 15 23:43:23 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:43:23 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner References: <200609160035.56925.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00d201c6d94a$a4ed9a00$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:35 AM Subject: SCSI CD burner > I've been going crazy here trying to get a burner working. One flat-out won't > see a disc, even though I bought that one brand new (though that was a while > ago and I made the mistake of continually using it for a CDROM drive as > well), another one has mechanical problems, and then there's this external > unit... > > It's a Yamaha CRW4260tx. I don't have a cable to connect from it to the > Adaptec 2940 card that's installed in the machine. I currently have a 50-pin > cable running from the inside connector on the Adaptec card to the internal > connector on the drive (with its cover off). > > I'd like to put the drive in the box. Right now for both device number and > termination these functions are handled by the external drive's box, on the > rear panel. > > Can any of you guys help me with whether jumpers need to be _on_ or _off_ a > pair of pins to make termination happen and to assign a device number? I'd > measure it with a meter but don't have any handy means to get into those > connectors at the moment... > If you are using a 50 pin cable from the internal scsi card to the drive directly the terminators on the back of the external case are not connected to anything. There are 3 sets of jumpers on the back of the cdrw for SCSI ID, then probably one for parity or something, then the next one should be labled terminator (jumper that). If it is the only drive on the cable none of the SCSI ID jumpers need to be connected and it will show up as SCSI ID 0. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Sep 15 23:51:14 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:51:14 -0400 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000> <450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <450B82C2.4030301@atarimuseum.com> Definitely seems questionable, especially since Missile Command (1980) was NOT the first Atari arcade to use a trackball (spelled trakball in Atari-speak) as there were several prior arcades in 78-79 using trackball controllers (such as flyball, Soccer, football, basketball and I think 1-2 others... its late and I'm a bit fuzzy right now, but I think there should be a couple of others.) Curt William Donzelli wrote: >> Where did you get this "trivia" from? > > Sounds pretty fishy - I think the patent on the trackball would have > expired by the time Missile Command came out. > > -- > Will > > From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 16 00:00:06 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 01:00:06 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <00d201c6d94a$a4ed9a00$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200609160035.56925.rtellason@verizon.net> <00d201c6d94a$a4ed9a00$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200609160100.06911.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 16 September 2006 12:43 am, Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:35 AM > Subject: SCSI CD burner > > > I've been going crazy here trying to get a burner working. One flat-out > > won't see a disc, even though I bought that one brand new (though that > > was a while ago and I made the mistake of continually using it for a CDROM > > drive as well), another one has mechanical problems, and then there's > > this external unit... > > > > It's a Yamaha CRW4260tx. I don't have a cable to connect from it to the > > Adaptec 2940 card that's installed in the machine. I currently have a > > 50-pin cable running from the inside connector on the Adaptec card to the > > internal connector on the drive (with its cover off). > > > > I'd like to put the drive in the box. Right now for both device number > > and termination these functions are handled by the external drive's box, > > on the rear panel. > > > > Can any of you guys help me with whether jumpers need to be _on_ or _off_ > > a pair of pins to make termination happen and to assign a device number? > > I'd measure it with a meter but don't have any handy means to get into those > > connectors at the moment... > > If you are using a 50 pin cable from the internal scsi card to the drive > directly the terminators on the back of the external case are not connected > to anything. There aren't terminators on the back of the external case, just a switch, which connects to a pair of pins on the back of the drive -- those pins either need a jumper or they don't, I'm just not sure which. > There are 3 sets of jumpers on the back of the cdrw for SCSI ID, then > probably one for parity or something, then the next one should be labled > terminator (jumper that). I don't recall if there's a parity jumper there or not but the drive itself is marked, they just don't express the sense of the pins. > If it is the only drive on the cable none of the SCSI ID jumpers need to be > connected and it will show up as SCSI ID 0. That's the part I was wondering about... Thanks. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 16 00:47:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:47:06 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <000601c6d930$aff64dd0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <000601c6d930$aff64dd0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200609152247060228.0130A391@10.0.0.252> On 9/15/2006 at 9:37 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > Thoughts? What Dave said, but a few reminders. First, make sure that the drive is jumpered for high density by default, since the density select line won't be active on the 8" connector. Most 1.2MB 5.25" drives are jumpered to provide DISK CHANGED/ status on pin 34; I believe the Disk 1 requires READY/, so change your jumpers accordingly. Cheers, Chuck From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 16 06:31:05 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:31:05 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <200609160100.06911.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609160035.56925.rtellason@verizon.net> <00d201c6d94a$a4ed9a00$0b01a8c0@game> <200609160100.06911.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060916113105.24500BA4159@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > There aren't terminators on the back of the external case, just a switch, > which connects to a pair of pins on the back of the drive -- those pins > either need a jumper or they don't, I'm just not sure which. Almost always, "jumper on" means "termination on". > I don't recall if there's a parity jumper there or not but the drive itself is > marked, they just don't express the sense of the pins. Parity jumpers on SCSI CD-ROM's are a crapshoot with respect to sense of installed/uninstalled. > > If it is the only drive on the cable none of the SCSI ID jumpers need to be > > connected and it will show up as SCSI ID 0. > > That's the part I was wondering about... Don't ignore what he wrote with respect to debugging: simplify everything until you've only got the host adapter and the drive. Ideally with only a piece of ribbon cable between the two. You will probably discover that with a short cable that it doesn't matter whether termination is installed or not! (Although your Adaptec host adapter will probably complain at boot time if termination is not correct.) This brings up what is probably a more on-topic issue: I've never had a CD burner (SCSI, IDE, whatever) last more than a year or two. Even if only lightly used. Inevitably I just toss it and buy a faster one for less $ than the first one cost. Once or twice I opened it up and removed dust-bunnies but this never helped. Is there something I should be doing to preserve "classic" computer CD readers/burners? I will admit that I have vengefully destroyed some very classic CD readers (e.g. RRD50) purely out of spite for how dreadfully poor performing they were. (A RRD50 is very optimistically "0.5X"). I did the same with lots of RD5x MFM drives in the late 80's/early 90's, oh how I despised RQDX/MFM hardware compared to the Emulex/Dilog/ CMD/etc. clones! Tim. From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Sep 15 21:08:28 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:08:28 -0700 Subject: Personal Iris IRIX issues and other related questions... Message-ID: <450B5C9C.9010704@msu.edu> I recently picked up an SGI Personal Iris 4D/35 and I'm struggling to get IRIX installed and working (with emphasis on "working"). I currently have at my disposal a copy of IRIX 4.0.5 and a copy of IRIX 5.3. I've tried installing both, and the installation succeeds in both cases, but neither installation works after install. The symptoms are: IRIX 4.0.5 installs. On reboot I get the typical chatter in the console window (UNIX banners, fsck, "The system is coming up," etc.) after which the screen goes black and stays that way forever and ever. Nothing I do causes any response from the machine. IRIX 5.3 installs. On reboot I get the same chatter as above, after which the screen goes black, except with a red SGI-shaped mouse cursor which I can move around with the mouse. After about 5 seconds the screen turns light blue (the same light blue as the console screen at power-on). At this point I can hit esc to bring up the console, and the characters I type on the keyboard are echoed to it but nothing I do has any effect. Any suggestions? I'm also looking for earlier versions of IRIX to run on this machine -- any good places to find them? Thanks! Josh From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Sep 16 10:21:04 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:21:04 -0500 Subject: Lots of Manuals from Trip Message-ID: <003901c6d9a3$bad53770$30406b43@66067007> Al, we will have to talk as I got a number of manuals from my NE/MO/KS trip and it will be awhile before I can put any of them on the web for folks to use. I have IBM manuals like, Customer Engineering Manual of Instruction for the 56 Card Verifier; Reference Manual 82, 83, and 84 Sorters; Parts Catalog 56 Verifier; and many more. I have several large boxes full of manuals and schematics for all sorts of unit record equipment, computers, and cards. The GA trip should also produce a gold mine of manuals. From dbetz at xlisper.com Sat Sep 16 10:35:07 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 11:35:07 -0400 Subject: Sun 386i w/Monitor, keyboard, mouse free for pickup in southern NH Message-ID: I offered a bunch of equipment here a little while ago and found takers for most of it. In fact, lots of the stuff has been picked up already. Thanks to all of you who picked up your equipment promptly! But, I have not found anyone who is willing to pickup my Sun 386i workstation with monochrome monitor, keyboard and mouse. Is anyone interested in this machine? If not, I'm going to have to take it to the dump. Unfortunately, I am not willing to package it up for shipping. If someone really wants it badly and is willing to pay for some place like Mailboxes Etc. to pack it up and ship it I can do that. I suspect that would be quite expensive though. So, any takers for a Sun 386i workstation? Thanks, David Betz dbetz at xlisper.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 16 10:48:46 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 08:48:46 -0700 Subject: Lots of Manuals from Trip Message-ID: > Al, we will have to talk as I got a number of manuals from my NE/MO/KS trip Tnx. Docs/software for the SEL would be of the most interest. I have a huge backlog of unit record manuals. The docs/tapes you saw at Rudy's will be made available for your 910 as soon as they get here (actually, I don't know if the stuff was picked up before or after you were there). An inventory of the IBM stuff from TX would be useful too. From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Sep 16 11:38:54 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:38:54 -0700 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) References: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000> <450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com> <450B82C2.4030301@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <001701c6d9ae$9a254af0$6401a8c0@hal9000> > Definitely seems questionable, especially since Missile Command (1980) > was NOT the first Atari arcade to use a trackball (spelled trakball in > Atari-speak) as there were several prior arcades in 78-79 using > trackball controllers (such as flyball, Soccer, football, basketball and > I think 1-2 others... its late and I'm a bit fuzzy right now, but I > think there should be a couple of others.) > > Curt > > > William Donzelli wrote: > >> Where did you get this "trivia" from? > > > > Sounds pretty fishy - I think the patent on the trackball would have > > expired by the time Missile Command came out. > > -- > > Will I didn't say Missile Command was the only game in question. It just happened to be the name used in the conversation. This "trivia" came directly from the President of Orbit. They were the sub-contractors for many of the Man-Machine Interfaces for my tactical display consoles (including the trackball) from the mid-seventies into the ninties. As for patents; " A patent provides protection for up to twenty years, counting from the filing date (the date given with reference numeral 22 on the front page). US patents with a filing date before June 8, 1995 provide protection for up to seventeen years counting from the date of grant (the date given with reference numeral 45), or 20 years from the filing date, whichever expires later. " As to whether you believe it or not, I really don't care. I was working with the guys at Orbit ( the Military Orbit ) when this happened. regards, Steven From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 12:24:17 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 13:24:17 -0400 Subject: Sun 386i w/Monitor, keyboard, mouse free for pickup in southern NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, We talked about shipping it to Ohio. I want at least the computer, keyboard, mouse and cables. I am struggling about whether it worthes it to ship the monitor. So here is the deal: If nobody wants the bunch, I want the everything except the monitor. If you could get a quote on how much it costs to get the whole thing shipped, I can make a better decision on whether I want the monitor too. Let me know. Thank you! Shengchao (vax, 9000) On 9/16/06, David Betz wrote: > > I offered a bunch of equipment here a little while ago and found > takers for most of it. In fact, lots of the stuff has been picked up > already. Thanks to all of you who picked up your equipment promptly! > > But, I have not found anyone who is willing to pickup my Sun 386i > workstation with monochrome monitor, keyboard and mouse. Is anyone > interested in this machine? If not, I'm going to have to take it to > the dump. Unfortunately, I am not willing to package it up for > shipping. If someone really wants it badly and is willing to pay for > some place like Mailboxes Etc. to pack it up and ship it I can do > that. I suspect that would be quite expensive though. > > So, any takers for a Sun 386i workstation? > > Thanks, > David Betz > > dbetz at xlisper.com > From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 12:25:23 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 13:25:23 -0400 Subject: Sun 386i w/Monitor, keyboard, mouse free for pickup in southern NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry it is supposed to be a private mail. From bear at typewritten.org Sat Sep 16 13:17:19 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 11:17:19 -0700 Subject: Personal Iris IRIX issues and other related questions... In-Reply-To: <450B5C9C.9010704@msu.edu> References: <450B5C9C.9010704@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sep 15, 2006, at 7:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Any suggestions? > I'm also looking for earlier versions of IRIX to run on this > machine -- any good places to find them? Josh; This suggests to me a hardware problem with the graphics display hardware. I suggest trying to start the system single user so you can poke at the console miniport, initializing the network and connecting in via telnet before letting the system continue to multi-user. You will _probably_ discover that the system is running but the graphics display is not working. If this is the case there will be some information of greater or lesser use in the system logs. I suggest trying this with 5.3 as it's a unified release you can be certain includes support for the 4D/35. The 4D/35 was introduced during the 3.3.2 days, but you will not have much success installing 3.3 and then the 3.3.2 maintenance. You need the 3.3.2 release which includes support for 4D/35 (known as 3.3.2 +1.0 4D/35). Otherwise you are looking at a 4.0.x release prior to 4.0.5, for which there isn't much to recommend. ok bear From rcini at optonline.net Sat Sep 16 13:27:00 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:27:00 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609152247060228.0130A391@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <002501c6d9bd$b32a54a0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> The board has all sorts of jumpers which is good. So I can pick and choose which ones to change with no problem. When reading the book it seems that if you want to use a "minifloppy" drive, there are several components you need to change -- a bunch of resistors, a crystal and a coil. I presume this is to change the recording frequency and spindle speed for 5.25" disks. I'm going to try it without modifications first, but since the HD drive is equivalent to an 8" drive for recording purposes, I don't think I have to change them. As much as I dislike PeeCees, at least they have the benefit of standardization. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:47 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences On 9/15/2006 at 9:37 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > Thoughts? What Dave said, but a few reminders. First, make sure that the drive is jumpered for high density by default, since the density select line won't be active on the 8" connector. Most 1.2MB 5.25" drives are jumpered to provide DISK CHANGED/ status on pin 34; I believe the Disk 1 requires READY/, so change your jumpers accordingly. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 13:45:14 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:45:14 -0400 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: <001701c6d9ae$9a254af0$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000> <450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com> <450B82C2.4030301@atarimuseum.com> <001701c6d9ae$9a254af0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: > As for patents; " A patent provides protection for up to twenty years, > counting from the filing date (the date given with reference numeral 22 on > the front page). US patents with a filing date before June 8, 1995 provide > protection for up to seventeen years counting from the date of grant (the > date given with reference numeral 45), or 20 years from the filing date, > whichever expires later. " Correct, but trackballs date to the 1950s. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 13:45:14 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:45:14 -0400 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: <001701c6d9ae$9a254af0$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000> <450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com> <450B82C2.4030301@atarimuseum.com> <001701c6d9ae$9a254af0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: > As for patents; " A patent provides protection for up to twenty years, > counting from the filing date (the date given with reference numeral 22 on > the front page). US patents with a filing date before June 8, 1995 provide > protection for up to seventeen years counting from the date of grant (the > date given with reference numeral 45), or 20 years from the filing date, > whichever expires later. " Correct, but trackballs date to the 1950s. -- Will From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 16 09:38:13 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:38:13 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner Message-ID: <0J5O000RYWMF3YU6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: SCSI CD burner > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:35:56 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I've been going crazy here trying to get a burner working. One flat-out won't >see a disc, even though I bought that one brand new (though that was a while >ago and I made the mistake of continually using it for a CDROM drive as >well), another one has mechanical problems, and then there's this external >unit... > >It's a Yamaha CRW4260tx. I don't have a cable to connect from it to the >Adaptec 2940 card that's installed in the machine. I currently have a 50-pin >cable running from the inside connector on the Adaptec card to the internal >connector on the drive (with its cover off). > >I'd like to put the drive in the box. Right now for both device number and >termination these functions are handled by the external drive's box, on the >rear panel. > >Can any of you guys help me with whether jumpers need to be _on_ or _off_ a >pair of pins to make termination happen and to assign a device number? I'd >measure it with a meter but don't have any handy means to get into those >connectors at the moment... On the drive itself, next to the 50 pin, there is an array of jumpers and they (on mine) are marked as to what they do. They will need to be configured! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 16 11:10:10 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:10:10 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5P009MW0VNZE20@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:47:06 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 9/15/2006 at 9:37 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> Thoughts? > >What Dave said, but a few reminders. > >First, make sure that the drive is jumpered for high density by default, >since the density select line won't be active on the 8" connector. Or the 5.25 connector either! >Most 1.2MB 5.25" drives are jumpered to provide DISK CHANGED/ status on >pin 34; I believe the Disk 1 requires READY/, so change your jumpers >accordingly. The READY/ can be jumpered for 5.25 floppy use as it's not always there. The disk 1A has a jumper for this, if the disk1 does not then a red wire jumper on the back of the board will do this. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 16 11:19:25 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:19:25 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner Message-ID: <0J5P0097K1B2YM50@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: SCSI CD burner > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:31:05 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >This brings up what is probably a more on-topic issue: I've never had >a CD burner (SCSI, IDE, whatever) last more than a year or two. Even if >only lightly used. Inevitably I just toss it and buy a faster one for >less $ than the first one cost. I had a 4x plextor scsi that was three years old and still cranking 6 CDs a week. I found that (50 systems in office environment) COOLING is everything. Those systems that were in coller spots in the building and had better internal cooling were far less troublesome for failures espeecially Disks and CDroms(CDRW). >Is there something I should be doing to preserve "classic" computer >CD readers/burners? Cooling and the slower ones seems to hold up far better suggesting vibration may be a factor. >I will admit that I have vengefully destroyed some very classic CD >readers (e.g. RRD50) purely out of spite for how dreadfully poor >performing they were. (A RRD50 is very optimistically "0.5X"). I >did the same with lots of RD5x MFM drives in the late 80's/early 90's, >oh how I despised RQDX/MFM hardware compared to the Emulex/Dilog/ >CMD/etc. clones! Yes, they are slugs, but I have several and the refuse to die! I can accept slow over broken anytime. ;) FYI the older Toshiba 1x and 2x SCSI CDreaders work well on VAX (CMD SCSI) are faster and seem to resist breaking. They also do not need trays. Related topic. CD burner on VAX (under VMS) has any one figured how to burn CDs? Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 16 14:29:58 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:29:58 -0700 Subject: C64 ASM Question Message-ID: Now for what is no doubt a very stupid question that I'm hoping someone can help with. I'm using "Turbo Macro Assembler '05", and have verified that it works with the following simple little program that I got off the web: * = $1000 loop: inc $d020 ; increment $d020 jmp loop ; jump to label loop I can get <-- 3 "Assemble and run" to work just fine, however while <-- 5 "Assemble to disk" seems to work, how on earth do I execute the program that is created? Obviously I need to do a: LOAD"FLASH",8,1 It loads just fine, and I assume I need a SYS statement with an address to start it, but what on earth should that address be? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From technobug at comcast.net Sat Sep 16 14:35:01 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:35:01 -0700 Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <200609161700.k8GH03sL006705@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609161700.k8GH03sL006705@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <65838FF4-181E-4260-9493-91184C30F2AE@comcast.net> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:31:05 -0400, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing- edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: [...] > This brings up what is probably a more on-topic issue: I've never had > a CD burner (SCSI, IDE, whatever) last more than a year or two. > Even if > only lightly used. Inevitably I just toss it and buy a faster one for > less $ than the first one cost. > > Once or twice I opened it up and removed dust-bunnies but this never > helped. > > Is there something I should be doing to preserve "classic" computer > CD readers/burners? > > I will admit that I have vengefully destroyed some very classic CD > readers (e.g. RRD50) purely out of spite for how dreadfully poor > performing they were. (A RRD50 is very optimistically "0.5X"). I > did the same with lots of RD5x MFM drives in the late 80's/early 90's, > oh how I despised RQDX/MFM hardware compared to the Emulex/Dilog/ > CMD/etc. clones! > > Tim. > > > ------------------------------ The basic problem with commercial CD burners/players is that they keep the laser diodes on when powered, although at the low power required for reading. The life of run-of-the-mill laser diodes is on the order of 10,000 (10.000) hours. Consequently, if you keep your system on all the time you can expect one to two years of useful life from the beast (some longer, some shorter). Industrial class machine monitor the output power of the diode and power it on only when used. With feedback they are able to correct the loss of output and consequently extend the useable lifetime. From : "Rohm representatives pointed out that the LDs used in datacomm applications have more stringent lifetime requirements than those in CD players. For CD players, lifetimes of 10 4 hours are acceptable, while lifetimes approaching 10 5 hours are required in datacomm lasers. At the time of the JTEC visit, Rohm guaranteed laser diodes with lifetimes of 10 5 hours at 60 deg. C" I have several CD burners that have been operating for over 8 to 10 years (slow...). These are external units to my boxen which are powered on only when used. I too find that most of my readers in my old equipment are dead having been run continuously for may years. Besides run-time, temperature is also a factor. If you can power off the unit and keep it cool, you should effectively extend its useful lifetime. CRC From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 16 14:46:34 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 ASM Question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 16, 6 12:29:58 pm" Message-ID: <200609161946.k8GJkY9g010066@floodgap.com> > Now for what is no doubt a very stupid question that I'm hoping > someone can help with. > > I'm using "Turbo Macro Assembler '05", and have verified that it > works with the following simple little program that I got off the web: > > * = $1000 > > loop: inc $d020 ; increment $d020 > jmp loop ; jump to label loop > > I can get <-- 3 "Assemble and run" to work just fine, however while > <-- 5 "Assemble to disk" seems to work, how on earth do I execute the > program that is created? Obviously I need to do a: > > LOAD"FLASH",8,1 > It loads just fine, and I assume I need a SYS statement with an > address to start it, but what on earth should that address be? I don't know if TMA needs you to specify a starting address to assemble to disk; most of the hosted assemblers don't, but many of the cross assemblers do (xa does, for example -- I need to make a FAQ about that). Assuming it does not, SYS 4096 will run it. Assuming it does (the computer crashes), add a .byt $00, $10 above the *= (some assemblers will accept .word). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. -- Dave McGuire --------- From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sat Sep 16 14:46:18 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:46:18 -0500 Subject: Cleaning RK07 packs? Message-ID: HI all, I got some RK07 packs from Dan that I need to clean, two of which had those black (mold? Dirt?) dots on them, which came off easily. They do smell slightly musty inside but there's no mold or dirt on the inside of the pack. I'd like to hear some opinions on cleaning procedures and equipment for something like this. What do you guys think? Julian From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Sep 16 15:12:54 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:12:54 -0500 Subject: Lots of Manuals from Trip References: Message-ID: <006401c6d9cc$7f71ad70$30406b43@66067007> I have 4 or 5 large boxes of manuals/software paper tapes for the SEL810, the boxes were shrink wrapped for me and I have not done anything but unloaded them from the truck. I will send you a inventory list of everything as soon as I finish it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 10:48 AM Subject: Re: Lots of Manuals from Trip > >> Al, we will have to talk as I got a number of manuals from my NE/MO/KS >> trip > > Tnx. Docs/software for the SEL would be of the most interest. I have a > huge > backlog of unit record manuals. The docs/tapes you saw at Rudy's will be > made available for your 910 as soon as they get here (actually, I don't > know > if the stuff was picked up before or after you were there). > > An inventory of the IBM stuff from TX would be useful too. > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 16 15:30:42 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:30:42 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5P00LKICXTFYD0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:27:00 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > >The board has all sorts of jumpers which is good. So I can pick and choose >which ones to change with no problem. > >When reading the book it seems that if you want to use a "minifloppy" drive, >there are several components you need to change -- a bunch of resistors, a >crystal and a coil. I presume this is to change the recording frequency and >spindle speed for 5.25" disks. I'm going to try it without modifications >first, but since the HD drive is equivalent to an 8" drive for recording >purposes, I don't think I have to change them. Those parts are for the Clock, PLL, and write timing. They do not alter spindle speed as thats the job of the floppy. FYI the 1.2mb floppy appeard about 6 years after that board was sold. If you doing 1.2mb 5.25 (or any 8" format) then you DO NOT change those parts. If you want the conventional 360k two sided (40 track 2S DD) or 720k (80 track 2S DD) then you have to. Those parts changes are why there was a Disk1A. >As much as I dislike PeeCees, at least they have the benefit of >standardization. Ah, it's using the definitive PC FDC. It was developed well before PCs standardized. PCs however don't offer much choice and if they did keep all the FDC features you could put a 8" on a PC and read SSSD! Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Sep 17 11:42:54 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 12:42:54 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5P00LKICXTFYD0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5P00LKICXTFYD0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609171242.54255.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 16 September 2006 16:30, Allison wrote: > >As much as I dislike PeeCees, at least they have the benefit of > >standardization. > > Ah, it's using the definitive PC FDC. It was developed well before > PCs standardized. PCs however don't offer much choice and if they did > keep all the FDC features you could put a 8" on a PC and read SSSD! I actually *can* do that on a K6-2 box I've got sitting at work (and have done it several times). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 20:42:35 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 20:42:35 -0500 Subject: PDP8's, PDP11's, VAX's, drives, teletype, options, etc Message-ID: <624966d60609161842s131cf560t10b14df6ea96d59@mail.gmail.com> I will be leaving from central IL on Thursday, Sept 21, to middle Wi, close > to Minneapolis/St. Paul, and returning on Sunday, Sept 24. I will be > picking up and delivering a variety of classic computer items, mostly DEC, > throughout the trip. If there is anything you might be interested in, please > contact me off list. Thanks, Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 17 11:08:18 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:08:18 -0700 Subject: Test MSG Please Ignore Message-ID: Just a test... From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Sun Sep 17 09:28:48 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:28:48 -0500 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: <20060916011203.66424581C1@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) >But I would like to use the same trackball or spinner directly hooked >up to my Commodore 64... (and then other times to my PC to play >Centipede or Arkanoid) > >Cheers, > >Bryan > I don't know the C64, but if it's mouse uses a pair of slotted wheels, each with two sets of transmitter-receiver photo diodes, you can modify the Happ trackball. Just run the wires on the trackball side to a DB25 plug, and put a DB25 socket on the C64 mouse circuit board side. Do the same for a PC mouse. This way, you can use the circuit board from a PC mouse with a PC and from a C64 with that. BTW, I forgot to mention that I desoldered the left and right button switches from the mouse board and wired-in arcade pushbuttons, also from Happ Controls. If you do not use common ground wires, you will need 20 pins on the DB25 for the full setup (16 wires for the 8 photo diodes and 4 wires for the two switches). Bob From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 16 18:18:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:18:16 -0700 Subject: C64 ASM Question In-Reply-To: <200609161946.k8GJkY9g010066@floodgap.com> References: <200609161946.k8GJkY9g010066@floodgap.com> Message-ID: >I don't know if TMA needs you to specify a starting address to assemble >to disk; most of the hosted assemblers don't, but many of the cross >assemblers do (xa does, for example -- I need to make a FAQ about that). > >Assuming it does not, SYS 4096 will run it. > >Assuming it does (the computer crashes), add a .byt $00, $10 above the *= >(some assemblers will accept .word). I'm guessing the computer crashes when I try to run it with a SYS 4096, it puts me back at a "READY." prompt. Adding ".byte $00, $10" at the beginning of the source prevents it from even compiling. I've gone ahead and posted a question about this to comp.sys.cbm as well. On a positive note, I *FINALLY* found my Wico Command Control joysticks, and the Atari 2600 sticks! Based on the box they were in, I don't understand how I missed finding them a couple weeks ago when I pulled the C64 out. Also found the Power Supply for the A500, and the 2002 monitor cable, so I'm about to see if the A500 still works :^) Now where did I put the copy of Overlord/Supremacy for the A500 :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Sep 17 08:02:38 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 14:02:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teletype lubrication adviceu In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Teletype lubrication adviceu" (Sep 14, 23:00) References: Message-ID: <10609171402.ZM6512@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Sep 14 2006, 23:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The parts manual exists, I have it. I only have one copy, though > (unlike the Techincal Manual where I have at least 2 of each volume, but > different editions IIRC). > > I might be able to be convinced to make a copy of it. It is, at least, > looseleaf... Hm... is it large? If it's not too big, I would pay for the copying. > > It says to lubricate the motor bearings at each end. But mine doesn't > > look like it was designed for that. > If this is the normal motor, then it's sort of sealed for life -- the end > housings are glued to the stator laminations, It's similar in > construction to the RX02 spindle motor IIRC. > > It can be lubricated, though. Take the motor out of the chassis, remove > the fan and the reduction gearing. There's a black plastic cover at each > end around the spidnle, these can be prised (pried) off. You can the > squirt some oil into the bearings. I think I'll leave that until after the event, when I have more time (I'm about to go on holiday) to do a full job. I've lubricated the shaft behind the motor, though, and a few other key points. Thanks for confirming that the motor is at least "sort of" sealed for life! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Sep 17 02:24:06 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 03:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun 386i w/Monitor, keyboard, mouse free for pickup in southern NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609170725.DAA09955@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] > So, any takers for a Sun 386i workstation? I hope so; they're nice little machines, and it's always refreshing to see an x86 machine that's not architecturally a peecee. And, thanks for the reminder; there's someone I owe a 386i to and have for far too long; I really need to get it boxed up and sent off. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 17 14:38:45 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 12:38:45 -0700 Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:29 PM -0700 9/16/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Now for what is no doubt a very stupid question that I'm hoping >someone can help with. > >I'm using "Turbo Macro Assembler '05", and have verified that it >works with the following simple little program that I got off the >web: > > * = $1000 > >loop: inc $d020 ; increment $d020 > jmp loop ; jump to label loop > >I can get <-- 3 "Assemble and run" to work just fine, however while ><-- 5 "Assemble to disk" seems to work, how on earth do I execute >the program that is created? Obviously I need to do a: > >LOAD"FLASH",8,1 >It loads just fine, and I assume I need a SYS statement with an >address to start it, but what on earth should that address be? I converted the HEX addresses that the assembler gave me when I assembled to disk, and managed to figure out that I needed a "SYS 1000". Todays project a User Port Serial Interface with a System Reset Switch added on so I can get rid of the cartridge expander. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 16 16:59:17 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <00d201c6d94a$a4ed9a00$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200609160035.56925.rtellason@verizon.net> <00d201c6d94a$a4ed9a00$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <20060916145639.W20974@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > There are 3 sets of jumpers on the back of the cdrw for SCSI ID, then > probably one for parity or something, then the next one should be labled > terminator (jumper that). If it is the only drive on the cable none of the > SCSI ID jumpers need to be connected and it will show up as SCSI ID 0. Which will not work well if the controller thinks that it is number 0. I have seen various "default" numbers for the controllers on PCs. What is the default SCSI ID for the controller in Apples? "Who is number one?" "You are number six." From dundas at caltech.edu Sat Sep 16 18:43:00 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 11/34a power supply/regulator question Message-ID: <3835224272dundas@caltech.edu> The recent discussion of Julian's PDP-11/34 inspired me to look at an abandoned one that I adopted some while ago. The particular computer in question is a /34A-DE. After looking at the prints and checking a few voltages, I find I have no +5. Reviewing the recent thread and looking closer at the prints, it seems that I am missing two H7441s. (It does have a H754 and H745, with the 54-10864-YA [Rev. L] distribution board.) Is that correct? It needs (one or) two H744 or H7441 (in my case) in order to operate? Thanks, John From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Sep 17 03:40:00 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 10:40:00 +0200 Subject: Personal Iris IRIX issues and other related questions... In-Reply-To: References: <450B5C9C.9010704@msu.edu> Message-ID: <20060917104000.464cfea6@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 11:17:19 -0700 "r.stricklin" wrote: > This suggests to me a hardware problem with the graphics display > hardware. Seconded. Sometimes it helps this old hardware to be "kreidlered". I.e. disassemble the whole machine, reaseat all PCBs and connectors and try again. (Sometimes connectors get a litle bit of corrosion etc. that is cleand out by un- and repluging the connector.) > I suggest trying to start the system single user so you can > poke at the console miniport, My knowledge on those old SGI stiff is limited. At least 6.5 had diagnostics that you can run to fsck the hardware... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 16 16:53:57 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:53:57 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <0J5O000RYWMF3YU6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5O000RYWMF3YU6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609161753.57376.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 16 September 2006 10:38 am, Allison wrote: > On the drive itself, next to the 50 pin, there is an array of jumpers and > they (on mine) are marked as to what they do. They will need to be > configured! Yah, the drive is marked as to what they do, what I was wondering about was the sense of the jumpers -- is a jumper being present a "1" or a "0". I'll fiddle with it some and get it figured out... Part of the problem I was having was neglecting to load a driver for the 2940. :-0 -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Sep 16 19:27:16 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:27:16 -0700 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) References: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000><450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com><450B82C2.4030301@atarimuseum.com><001701c6d9ae$9a254af0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <000901c6d9f0$082d6910$6401a8c0@hal9000> > > As for patents; " A patent provides protection for up to twenty years, > > counting from the filing date (the date given with reference numeral 22 on > > the front page). US patents with a filing date before June 8, 1995 provide > > protection for up to seventeen years counting from the date of grant (the > > date given with reference numeral 45), or 20 years from the filing date, > > whichever expires later. " > > Correct, but trackballs date to the 1950s. > > -- > Will 1950s would be the UNIVAC or the IBM 701 neither of which as I recall had a trackball. Before we get into a pissing contest or questions of others people's "legal" lineage let's make certain we are using similar semantics. By "trackball" I / we are talking about an "electronic" data pointing device used to input data generally but not restricted to a computing device. Said trackball utilizes a hard round sphere resting on two perpendicular shafts which incorporate a type of shaft encoder ( quadrature light interrupter ) such that the speed and direction of the X and Y vectors of the "turning" sphere may be resolved by the rotating shafts / encoders and used as a digital input. The ATARI model CX22 I'm holding in my hand is such a device and uses what looks like a billiard ball sitting on two shafts. Please enlighten me as to what type of trackball was used in the 1950s ? I am genuinely interested. Thank you. Best regards, Steven From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Sep 17 17:14:26 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:14:26 -0700 Subject: 11/34a power supply/regulator question In-Reply-To: <3835224272dundas@caltech.edu> References: <3835224272dundas@caltech.edu> Message-ID: <450DC8C2.2080706@mindspring.com> dundas at caltech.edu wrote: > The recent discussion of Julian's PDP-11/34 inspired me to look at an > abandoned one that I adopted some while ago. The particular computer in > question is a /34A-DE. > > After looking at the prints and checking a few voltages, I find I have > no +5. Reviewing the recent thread and looking closer at the prints, it > seems that I am missing two H7441s. (It does have a H754 and H745, with > the 54-10864-YA [Rev. L] distribution board.) Is that correct? It > needs (one or) two H744 or H7441 (in my case) in order to operate? Depending upon how many backplanes you have in your box and how much stuff in each backplane, you need anywhere from one H744 (25A at 5V) to two H7441 (32A at 5V each, 64A total). The first H744(1) will power the 9slot CPU backplane. If you have a true 11/34A with FPP and/or cache module the H7441 is required. A minimal 11/34A (no FPP or cache) can use just an H744. The second H744(1) slot powers the expansion backplanes. If they are not present, you don't need it at all. If they are fully loaded, then the H7441 is your choice. The -YA version of the power distr board is designed to handle the additional load of the H7441s. It will work with either H744 or H7441. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 16 20:57:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 02:57:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/34a power supply/regulator question In-Reply-To: <3835224272dundas@caltech.edu> from "dundas@caltech.edu" at Sep 16, 6 04:43:00 pm Message-ID: > After looking at the prints and checking a few voltages, I find I have > no +5. Reviewing the recent thread and looking closer at the prints, it > seems that I am missing two H7441s. (It does have a H754 and H745, with > the 54-10864-YA [Rev. L] distribution board.) Is that correct? It > needs (one or) two H744 or H7441 (in my case) in order to operate? Yes, I believe so. The only 5V source is from those regulator blocks, and of course most of the logic runs off a 5V supply. AFAIK there are 3 types of regulator you can use, the H744 (rated at 25A), the H7440 (also 25A, but a revised design) and the H7441 (32A). Apart from the rating, they're compatible, so if 25A is unough you could use any of them. They also don't both need to be the same type. I can't remmeber how the 5V line is 'split' Certainly the complete CPU backplane runs off one regulator, the leftmost 2 'system unit' postions run off the other. It's the middle 'system unit that I can't remmber, I think it's off the regulator that runs the leftmost 2 positions too. In other words one block runs the CPU backplane, the other all the expansion backplanes. But I would have to check the prints to be sure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 16 21:00:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 03:00:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teletype lubrication adviceu In-Reply-To: <10609171402.ZM6512@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 17, 6 02:02:38 pm Message-ID: > > On Sep 14 2006, 23:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > The parts manual exists, I have it. I only have one copy, though > > (unlike the Techincal Manual where I have at least 2 of each volume, > but > > different editions IIRC). > > > > I might be able to be convinced to make a copy of it. It is, at > least, > > looseleaf... > > Hm... is it large? If it's not too big, I would pay for the copying. Well, it's A4-ish pages, printed on both sides, about half the thickness of one of the Technical Manual volumes. I am sure you know it contains complete exploded diagrams for the Model 33 (and all the options, like the detatched keyboard...) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 17 13:32:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:32:01 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5P00LKICXTFYD0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5P00LKICXTFYD0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609171132010099.09134F4C@10.0.0.252> On 9/16/2006 at 4:30 PM Allison wrote: >Ah, it's using the definitive PC FDC. It was developed well before >PCs standardized. PCs however don't offer much choice and if they did >keep all the FDC features you could put a 8" on a PC and read SSSD! You could?!? (if I'm parsing your statement correctly). IIRC, the original PC FDC card had IBM's proprietary data separator on it (several hybrid packagaes) and couldn't read SD/FM to save its life. It also had the 8272 (non "A") part, so it had other problems with "alien" formats. Unless, of course, we're talking about PCs in the generic sense and not the 5150 per se. There, it's a crapshoot as to what capabilites any given FDC card has. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 17 17:35:00 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:35:00 -0500 Subject: classiccmp.org issues Message-ID: <005401c6daa9$85832350$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Apparently sometime yesterday the sa/av system that frontends the classiccmp server was hit by a DDOS attack. The server did an admirable job for a while, but finally spiraled downward. I am still working on it and trying to implement a solution. Someone apparently isn't happy with bitsavers.org, as the DDOS attack is simply a dictionary generated email address in the bitsavers.org domain. It's coming from everywhere, so I can't just lock out certain servers. I'll get it stopped, things will be rocky for a bit, but it will be resolved soon. Jay West From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sun Sep 17 17:43:42 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:43:42 -0500 Subject: PDP8's, PDP11's, VAX's, drives, teletype, options, etc In-Reply-To: <624966d60609161842s131cf560t10b14df6ea96d59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Paul, would you like your BA11-K manual and the erratic DL11-W back? If you're going to be coming up 94, (which is, afaik, the only convenient way of getting up to mid-Wisconsin) you'll be literally going less than a mile right past my apartment. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 8:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PDP8's, PDP11's, VAX's, drives, teletype, options, etc I will be leaving from central IL on Thursday, Sept 21, to middle Wi, close > to Minneapolis/St. Paul, and returning on Sunday, Sept 24. I will be > picking up and delivering a variety of classic computer items, mostly DEC, > throughout the trip. If there is anything you might be interested in, please > contact me off list. Thanks, Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 17 06:48:34 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 07:48:34 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <65838FF4-181E-4260-9493-91184C30F2AE@comcast.net> References: <200609161700.k8GH03sL006705@dewey.classiccmp.org> <65838FF4-181E-4260-9493-91184C30F2AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060917114834.9C115BA4162@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> CRC wrote: > The basic problem with commercial CD burners/players is that they > keep the laser diodes on when powered, although at the low power > required for reading. The life of run-of-the-mill laser diodes is on > the order of 10,000 (10.000) hours. Consequently, if you keep your > system on all the time you can expect one to two years of useful life > from the beast (some longer, some shorter). You know, one to two years is almost exactly what I see for lifetime! Back in the days of using external SCSI CD-RW's (this is going back to the mid 90's so on-topic) turning the power to the writer on and off as needed made sense. But IDE hardware doesn't seem to handle this nearly so nicely. This pretty much guarantees they'll go bad in a year or two, I guess. Sucks! > I have several CD burners that have been operating for over 8 to 10 > years (slow...). These are external units to my boxen which are > powered on only when used. I'm guessing SCSI? My SCSI writers seemed to last a little longer than my modern IDE ones, but I kept them on almost all the time too. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 17 06:55:31 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 07:55:31 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <0J5P0097K1B2YM50@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5P0097K1B2YM50@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20060917115531.AC4B0BA416C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Allison wrote: > Related topic. In fact, more on-topic than my digression! > CD burner on VAX (under VMS) has any one figured how > to burn CDs? A thing I loved discussing 10 years ago! These web pages (mostly the same as they were in the mid-90's!) describe the tools and steps. I used this on a VS3100/38 with SCSI CD-writers with great success; others report having done this on a VS2000! http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/9999/vmscdwri.html http://www.djesys.com/vms/cdrom.html Variants on these techniques allow easy creation of RSX-11 CD's (just start the disk image as ODS-1 using VMS's INIT) and RT-11 CD's (using EXCHANGE to build the disk image). Tim. From dundas at caltech.edu Sun Sep 17 17:54:48 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 11/34a power supply/regulator question Message-ID: <2837779849dundas@caltech.edu> Thanks to Don and Tony for confirming my suspicions. The system as originally acquired had an RK11-D backplane in addition to the DD11-P. No cache nor FPP present though. Looks like I'll be needing some regulators... Thanks, John From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 16 16:56:46 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:56:46 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <65838FF4-181E-4260-9493-91184C30F2AE@comcast.net> References: <200609161700.k8GH03sL006705@dewey.classiccmp.org> <65838FF4-181E-4260-9493-91184C30F2AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200609161756.46742.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 16 September 2006 03:35 pm, CRC wrote: > On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:31:05 -0400, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing- > edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > [...] > > > This brings up what is probably a more on-topic issue: I've never had > > a CD burner (SCSI, IDE, whatever) last more than a year or two. > > Even if only lightly used. Inevitably I just toss it and buy a faster one > > for less $ than the first one cost. > > > > Once or twice I opened it up and removed dust-bunnies but this never > > helped. > > > > Is there something I should be doing to preserve "classic" computer > > CD readers/burners? > > > > I will admit that I have vengefully destroyed some very classic CD > > readers (e.g. RRD50) purely out of spite for how dreadfully poor > > performing they were. (A RRD50 is very optimistically "0.5X"). I > > did the same with lots of RD5x MFM drives in the late 80's/early 90's, > > oh how I despised RQDX/MFM hardware compared to the Emulex/Dilog/ > > CMD/etc. clones! > > > > Tim. > > > > ------------------------------ > > The basic problem with commercial CD burners/players is that they > keep the laser diodes on when powered, although at the low power > required for reading. The life of run-of-the-mill laser diodes is on > the order of 10,000 (10.000) hours. Consequently, if you keep your > system on all the time you can expect one to two years of useful life > from the beast (some longer, some shorter). Industrial class machine > monitor the output power of the diode and power it on only when used. > With feedback they are able to correct the loss of output and > consequently extend the useable lifetime. From loyola/opto/ad_rohm.htm>: > > "Rohm representatives pointed out that the LDs used in datacomm > applications have more stringent lifetime requirements than those in > CD players. For CD players, lifetimes of 10 4 hours are acceptable, > while lifetimes approaching 10 5 hours are required in datacomm > lasers. At the time of the JTEC visit, Rohm guaranteed laser diodes > with lifetimes of 10 5 hours at 60 deg. C" > > I have several CD burners that have been operating for over 8 to 10 > years (slow...). These are external units to my boxen which are > powered on only when used. I too find that most of my readers in my > old equipment are dead having been run continuously for may years. > Besides run-time, temperature is also a factor. If you can power off > the unit and keep it cool, you should effectively extend its useful > lifetime. > > CRC This is the best argument I've seen for keeping this in the external box, and not putting it into the computer... I just realized that the unit was switched on (and is not being used) and reached up there and hit the power switch to turn it off. It'll also no doubt stay cooler when not at the top of a stack of heat-generating drives, as well. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Sep 17 18:08:30 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 18:08:30 -0500 Subject: classiccmp.org issues In-Reply-To: <005401c6daa9$85832350$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <005401c6daa9$85832350$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <450DD56E.1080308@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Someone apparently isn't happy with bitsavers.org, as the DDOS attack is > simply a dictionary generated email address in the bitsavers.org domain. > It's coming from everywhere, so I can't just lock out certain servers. It's not "personal" -- email at your.domain is just the most likely to get past an email/spam gateway. Nothing has anything against bitsavers; probably some teen screwing around. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Sep 17 18:17:15 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:17:15 -0400 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) In-Reply-To: <000901c6d9f0$082d6910$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000> <450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com> <450B82C2.4030301@atarimuseum.com> <001701c6d9ae$9a254af0$6401a8c0@hal9000> <000901c6d9f0$082d6910$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: > Please enlighten me as to what type of trackball was used in the 1950s ? I > am genuinely interested. Thank you. Trackballs and joysticks were used in 1950s era radar indicators, mostly for fire control. I think the first use of the trackball was in a Canadian aircraft radar set, used to designate targets with a cursor. The X and Y positions were transmitted to the radar as a set of synchro signals that were fed to come sort of fire control computer. The earliest use that I know of for an X Y positioner for data input, in this case a joystick, is the AN/MPG-1 artillery radar of 1945. -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 17 18:35:03 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 18:35:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Stepdown convertor Message-ID: <200609172335.k8HNZ3Fe020234@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, I have been having problems with my Dreamcast (that I use to surf the 'net) resetting randomly. After checking out the power lines, it seems that the stepdown convertor is at fault. It has a crack and 2 bulging bits (where the plastic has been molded with lumps instead of flat) on the underside. How dangerous is this if it is the cause of the problem? It converts a 240V input to a 110V output (not been able to check the exact specs on it, as it's in use and very hot), as my Dreamcast I am using is a Japanese model (my UK model isn't fully functioning). Reply to me directly if you believe it isn't of interest to the other listmembers. I have just been on eBay to get a replacement. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 17 18:39:02 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 18:39:02 -0500 Subject: classiccmp.org issues References: <005401c6daa9$85832350$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <450DD56E.1080308@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00bd01c6dab2$7a9aff90$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > It's not "personal" -- email at your.domain is just the most likely to get > past an email/spam gateway. Nothing has anything against bitsavers; > probably some teen screwing around. there's more to it than that. J From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 17 18:53:50 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 18:53:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 68000 chips Message-ID: <200609172353.k8HNrokG020761@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, I got some 68000 DIP chips for ?3.00 off of www.vint agecomputermarketplace.com the other week. I finally got around to checking that they are of use to me ( by comparing them with notes I have on the internals of my old A600 Rev 1.1) and discovered that they ma y not be of use to me! :( Here's the low-down on them: MC68000P10 2 C91E DIP chip (rectangle with pins on l ong sides) x 2 QEDB9215 S (large logo S) SCN68000CAN64 2208N19 DIP chip x1 9035KE Any idea's what computer they are from/for? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 17 19:02:21 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:02:21 -0700 Subject: Capacitor Placement Message-ID: I'm in the process of building a MAX233 Serial Interface for my C64, and have run into one bit of problem. Which way should the "+" side of the Cap I have go in the following circuit? http://www.petscii.com/telbbs/max233-interface.jpg Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 17 19:08:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:08:17 -0700 Subject: classiccmp.org issues In-Reply-To: <00bd01c6dab2$7a9aff90$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <005401c6daa9$85832350$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <450DD56E.1080308@oldskool.org> <00bd01c6dab2$7a9aff90$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200609171708170008.0A472762@10.0.0.252> On 9/17/2006 at 6:39 PM Jay West wrote: >there's more to it than that. It *is* odd--last week I received a spam message, which hit me as a bit bizarre, since this email account was created for this list and nothing else. I shrugged it off, but I wonder if there's a connection to a spambot that's infected someone's system. Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Sun Sep 17 19:17:54 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:17:54 -0400 Subject: Capacitor Placement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007101c6dab7$e2c8ab30$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Which cap? Pin 7 of the DB25 is GND so the curved part of the 1uF symbol is (-) and the bar is (+). If you're talking the caps for the charge pump on the Max233, the 233 has internal capacitors for the charge pump so no external caps are required. The datasheet is here: http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/MAX220-MAX249.pdf Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 8:02 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Capacitor Placement I'm in the process of building a MAX233 Serial Interface for my C64, and have run into one bit of problem. Which way should the "+" side of the Cap I have go in the following circuit? http://www.petscii.com/telbbs/max233-interface.jpg Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Sep 17 19:21:51 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:21:51 -0400 Subject: Capacitor Placement In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:02:21 PDT." Message-ID: <200609180021.k8I0LpSo003947@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >I'm in the process of building a MAX233 Serial Interface for my C64, >and have run into one bit of problem. Which way should the "+" side >of the Cap I have go in the following circuit? >http://www.petscii.com/telbbs/max233-interface.jpg you don't need an electrolytic, but if you do make the + connect to vcc (+5). a low voltage ceramic should also work fine (non-polarized). I was going to add that you need 5 caps to make that work; but I read the data sheet - wow - the 233 doesn't need external c's. huh. learn something new every day. (i doubt you'd want one but I have a little boards with the 232 chip on it for the ceiva picture frames for $15. it has a header and a db-9 and all the caps) -brad From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 17 19:22:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:22:39 -0700 Subject: Capacitor Placement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609171722390077.0A544EC4@10.0.0.252> On 9/17/2006 at 5:02 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >I'm in the process of building a MAX233 Serial Interface for my C64, >and have run into one bit of problem. Which way should the "+" side >of the Cap I have go in the following circuit? >http://www.petscii.com/telbbs/max233-interface.jpg Unless the fellow who drew the schematic is wrong, the + side goes to pin 2 on the User Port connector and the - side goes to ground. The curved side of a capacitor symbol specifies the - terminal. If it's a nonpolar cap, then two straight lines are commonly used. But since pin 2 appears to be +5, the schematic is correct in that respect. Cheers, Chuck From jclang at notms.net Sun Sep 17 19:24:29 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:24:29 -0400 Subject: Capacitor Placement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06091720242900.07414@bell> On Sunday 17 September 2006 20:02, you wrote: > I'm in the process of building a MAX233 Serial Interface for my C64, > and have run into one bit of problem. Which way should the "+" side > of the Cap I have go in the following circuit? > http://www.petscii.com/telbbs/max233-interface.jpg > > Zane + to VCC (pin 2 on card edge) - to ground (A and N on card edge) The max233 doesn't use external charge pump caps. You need to connect pins: 11 to 15 10 to 16 12 to 17 They are shown as no connect on your drawing. joe lang From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 17 19:27:58 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 12:27:58 +1200 Subject: 68000 chips In-Reply-To: <200609172353.k8HNrokG020761@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609172353.k8HNrokG020761@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 9/18/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Hi, > > I got some 68000 DIP chips for ?3.00 off of www.vint > agecomputermarketplace.com the other week. I finally > got around to checking that they are of use to me ( > by comparing them with notes I have on the internals > of my old A600 Rev 1.1) and discovered that they ma > y not be of use to me! :( Not of use how? I've never owned an A600 (I have just about every other model)... do they have PLCC (square-package) CPUs? Were you trying to aquire these chips for spares or for an upgrade? > Here's the low-down on them: > > MC68000P10 > 2 C91E DIP chip (rectangle with pins on long sides) x 2 > QEDB9215 Sounds like a Motorola CPU that can run as fast at 10MHz (they marked them as high as 12MHz, but I think those can be clocked at 16MHz). > S (large logo S) SCN68000CAN64 > 2208N19 DIP chip x1 > 9035KE Sounds like a Signetics or similar licensed "clone" 68000 made in late 1990 (week 35). At one point, there were several makers of the CPUs, including Toshiba. > Any idea's what computer they are from/for? Um... pretty much anything that would use a 68000 at 10MHz or slower (the earliest chips were 4MHz, but 8Mhz was very common). They'd work in an A1000, A500, A2000, Perkin-Elmer UNIX 73xx workstation, some VAX peripherals like a DMB32 serial interface, several Atari models, older Macs (original 128K, 512K, Plus, Mac/SE...), the Sega Genesis game console and plenty more places. Were you looking for a 68010? That was a common upgrade in the A1000/A500/A2000 days - for about $20, you used to be able to get them new. They were a revision to the 68000 with the specific features of 99% binary code compatibility (the MOVEcc instruction became priv'ed on purpose); "loop mode" - a one-instruction cache that allowed simple "DBcc" loops to forego re-fetching the MOVE instruction, something that allowed block moves to execute 50% faster, resulting in a "free" ~5% speed increase in practice on an Amiga; and "virtual memory support" - the ability to generate a page fault and save enough state to allow the OS to grab a page from disk, then restart the instruction right where it left off as if nothing had happened. UNIX on the 680x0 architecture relies on instruction restart to implement virtual memory (though the Perkin-Elmer workstation I mentioned earlier used a pair of 68000s to perform the same task - one would be halted while the other fetched the page from disk). Amigas don't care about instruction restart, but the oldest Sun workstations came with 68010s for that very reason, as did the AT&T UNIX PC. Hope this all makes sense and is useful to you. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 17 19:48:05 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:48:05 -0500 Subject: test Message-ID: <012801c6dabc$1a98b4c0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> This is a test, please ignore and do not reply. Jay From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Sep 17 19:59:06 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:59:06 -0500 Subject: no Issue 37? Message-ID: Did anyone else not get Volume 37 Issue 37? Not sure if I should resend the posts I sent in that were skipped. Think I missed some other posts, perhaps. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 17 20:03:10 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 21:03:10 -0400 Subject: 68000 chips References: <200609172353.k8HNrokG020761@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <007c01c6dabe$36013cd0$0b01a8c0@game> Why is the a600 surface mount like the A1200 the 68000 are the type with pins? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 7:53 PM Subject: 68000 chips > > Hi, > > > I got some 68000 DIP chips for ?3.00 off of www.vint > agecomputermarketplace.com the other week. I finally > got around to checking that they are of use to me ( > by comparing them with notes I have on the internals > of my old A600 Rev 1.1) and discovered that they ma > y not be of use to me! :( > > Here's the low-down on them: > > MC68000P10 > 2 C91E DIP chip (rectangle with pins on l > ong sides) x 2 > QEDB9215 > > S (large logo S) SCN68000CAN64 > 2208N19 DIP chip x1 > 9035KE > > > Any idea's what computer they are from/for? > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From Steve at oceanrobots.net Sun Sep 17 20:12:35 2006 From: Steve at oceanrobots.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 21:12:35 -0400 Subject: 68000 chips In-Reply-To: <007c01c6dabe$36013cd0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200609172353.k8HNrokG020761@keith.ezwind.net> <007c01c6dabe$36013cd0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <450DF283.7050505@oceanrobots.net> Many VME bus cards/machines found in mid and later 80s used DIP packages. Steve Teo Zenios wrote: >Why is the a600 surface mount like the A1200 the 68000 are the type with >pins? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 7:53 PM >Subject: 68000 chips > > > > >>Hi, >> >> >>I got some 68000 DIP chips for ?3.00 off of www.vint >>agecomputermarketplace.com the other week. I finally >> got around to checking that they are of use to me ( >>by comparing them with notes I have on the internals >> of my old A600 Rev 1.1) and discovered that they ma >>y not be of use to me! :( >> >>Here's the low-down on them: >> >>MC68000P10 >> 2 C91E DIP chip (rectangle with pins on l >>ong sides) x 2 >>QEDB9215 >> >>S (large logo S) SCN68000CAN64 >> 2208N19 DIP chip x1 >> 9035KE >> >> >>Any idea's what computer they are from/for? >> >> >>Regards, >>Andrew B >>aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk >> >> > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 17 22:02:58 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 03:02:58 +0000 Subject: classiccmp.org issues In-Reply-To: <450DD56E.1080308@oldskool.org> References: <005401c6daa9$85832350$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <450DD56E.1080308@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <450E0C62.1050101@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > probably some teen screwing around. s/teen/moron/ :-( From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 17 21:15:31 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 17, 6 12:38:45 pm" Message-ID: <200609180215.k8I2FVhY018022@floodgap.com> > >It loads just fine, and I assume I need a SYS statement with an > >address to start it, but what on earth should that address be? > > I converted the HEX addresses that the assembler gave me when I > assembled to disk, and managed to figure out that I needed a "SYS > 1000". ITYM 4096. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From cannings at earthlink.net Sun Sep 17 21:58:06 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:58:06 -0700 Subject: Capacitor Placement References: Message-ID: <000501c6dace$44a72280$6401a8c0@hal9000> > I'm in the process of building a MAX233 Serial Interface for my C64, > and have run into one bit of problem. Which way should the "+" side > of the Cap I have go in the following circuit? > http://www.petscii.com/telbbs/max233-interface.jpg > > Zane Zane, The plus side of the cap is to the left ( Vcc side ). The convention is ( on the cap symbol ) that the "straight" part of the cap is "+" for a polarized cap and the curved part is "-". On a non-polarized cap the curved part represents the outside foil or outside can of the cap and should always go to ground or the closest reference to ground ( sometimes chassis ground ). Hope this helps. Best regards, Steven From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 17 22:52:52 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:52:52 -0700 Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: <200609180215.k8I2FVhY018022@floodgap.com> References: <200609180215.k8I2FVhY018022@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 7:15 PM -0700 9/17/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >It loads just fine, and I assume I need a SYS statement with an >> >address to start it, but what on earth should that address be? >> >> I converted the HEX addresses that the assembler gave me when I >> assembled to disk, and managed to figure out that I needed a "SYS >> 1000". > >ITYM 4096. ITYM? I assume that stand for "I Think You Mean"? Strangely enough I mean 1000, that's what had me so confused. It starts at $03e8 for some reason. I had expected it to start at 4096. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 18 00:34:31 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 22:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 17, 6 08:52:52 pm" Message-ID: <200609180534.k8I5YVQX018078@floodgap.com> > > > > It loads just fine, and I assume I need a SYS statement with an > > > > address to start it, but what on earth should that address be? > > > I converted the HEX addresses that the assembler gave me when I > > > assembled to disk, and managed to figure out that I needed a "SYS > > > 1000". > > ITYM 4096. > > ITYM? I assume that stand for "I Think You Mean"? Strangely enough > I mean 1000, that's what had me so confused. It starts at $03e8 for > some reason. I had expected it to start at 4096. Did you forget the $? * = 1000 instead of * = $1000 ? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Now you see why evil will always win, because good is dumb. -- "Spaceballs" From g-wright at att.net Mon Sep 18 01:00:17 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 06:00:17 +0000 Subject: Looking for DEC H7140 Power Supply Boards + H9545 Top Message-ID: <091820060600.27364.450E35F00003470B00006AE421602810609B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, Working on a 11/44 and need Cards for the power supply. Some where in its life someone had removed 3 of the boards. I move the cards from a 11/24 and it works. I also need the top cover to the cabinet H9545 . Which covers the 11/44 and allows the computer to be tilted up. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 16 20:32:22 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 02:32:22 +0100 Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450CA5A6.6020608@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > A couple more suggestions. Chemtronics sell (sold?) a rubber keyboard > repair kit. It was a 2-pack thing that you mixed and then put a bit on > the conductive rubber pad. The problem was that it's expensive, and once > mixed you have to use the whole lot (enough for about 100 switches I > think). I found, while repairing mid-80s synthesizers, that roughening the rubber bit with sandpaper then painting on silver-loaded paint (from Halfords, the stuff they have for fixing heated rear windscreens) worked just great. Gordon. From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 17 06:33:09 2006 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:33:09 +0000 Subject: Free floppy 3.5" disks - 720K or DSDD (UK) Message-ID: Hi, I have around 100 3.5" double sided 720K or DSDD floppies going spare (given to me by someone else having a clearout). These are suitable for certain older computers that are not compatible with newer HD disks. Most of the disks are unbranded, nearly all have pre-printed labels, all have write protect sliders. I am willing to send out in batches of 10 untested disks for the cost of postage (and Paypal charges if you want to pay that way). Postage will be roughly ?1.50 to the UK, please ask for international postage costs. I have formatted about 20 disks (on a PC), some disks took a couple of goes before showing zero bad sectors, a couple of disks I threw away as they kept showing errors. If you want these formated (tested) disks they are an extra ?1 for 10. Please e-mail me if you are interested, Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters From cyberhusky69 at yahoo.de Sun Sep 17 02:44:42 2006 From: cyberhusky69 at yahoo.de (Manou BILLA) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:44:42 +0200 Subject: Toshiba IHC-8000 (Pasopia Mini) Message-ID: <030E6D8F-86E2-45B2-956E-403FBC24AB50@yahoo.de> Hello My name is Manou BILLA, I've found your request for the IHC-8000 on http://www.classiccmp.org/ pipermail/cctech/2004-May/029380.html I'm too looking tor a functional IHC-8000 with printer and TV modul if it ever appeared. So do you had success in acquiring the pocket computer? If yes do you know where one can still buy it? Thx a lot. Regards, Manou BILLA > Toshiba IHC-8000 (Pasopia Mini) > > Cameron Kaiser spectre at floodgap.com > Tue May 11 08:20:42 CDT 2004 > > Previous message: Pertec Interface > Next message: Apple Cable > Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > > Anyone out there know (or might be persuaded to part with >:-) any > source > on the Toshiba IHC-8000 (aka Pasopia Mini)? > > This was a small "pocket computer" circa 1983 with 4K of RAM and a > 24x1 > character LCD. Let me know if anyone remembers this unit, or better > still, > has one (working or not). > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/ > ~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser > at floodgap.com > -- His mind is like a steel trap -- full of mice. -- Foghorn > Leghorn ---------- > > > > > > Previous message: Pertec Interface > Next message: Apple Cable > Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Sep 18 02:33:11 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 00:33:11 -0700 Subject: Personal Iris IRIX issues and other related questions... In-Reply-To: <20060917104000.464cfea6@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <450B5C9C.9010704@msu.edu> <20060917104000.464cfea6@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <450E4BB7.40707@msu.edu> Thanks for the tips. This morning the machine actually booted to the IRIX login screen but crashed to a black screen as soon as I tried to do anything graphics-intensive, so it looks like your assessments are correct, it's definitely a sporadic hardware failure. I went through and cleaned out the machine before I powered it on the first time (it was quite dirty); and I reseated everything that was socketed. I'll try running diagnostics on it sometime this week and see if it tells me anything. Thanks! Josh Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 11:17:19 -0700 > "r.stricklin" wrote: > > >> This suggests to me a hardware problem with the graphics display >> hardware. >> > Seconded. Sometimes it helps this old hardware to be "kreidlered". I.e. > disassemble the whole machine, reaseat all PCBs and connectors and try > again. (Sometimes connectors get a litle bit of corrosion etc. that is > cleand out by un- and repluging the connector.) > > >> I suggest trying to start the system single user so you can >> poke at the console miniport, >> > My knowledge on those old SGI stiff is limited. At least 6.5 had > diagnostics that you can run to fsck the hardware... > From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Mon Sep 18 07:04:24 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:04:24 +0100 Subject: UK Science Museum Exhibition features PDP-1? Message-ID: <11c909eb0609180504g44230e4ew7318e5a092f5b10d@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know if this is a real working PDP-1 or a mocked up, emulated thingy? Might be interesting for the games nostalgia for those (like me) whose classic computing interest overlaps to classic gaming. http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/exhibitions/gameon/ Precis below: *21 October 2006 - 25 February 2007* Explore the history, technology and culture of computer games in this new special exhibition. From the *PDP-1* of the 1960s to the latest consoles, *Game On* examines the technologies that have revolutionised the gaming world. See the ten most influential consoles of all time, learn about the design process behind games such as *Tomb Raider*, investigate the relationship between films and gaming and play over 100 games including classics *Space Invaders* and *Super Mario Brothers*! -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 18 09:23:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:23:47 +0000 Subject: Personal Iris IRIX issues and other related questions... In-Reply-To: <450E4BB7.40707@msu.edu> References: <450B5C9C.9010704@msu.edu> <20060917104000.464cfea6@SirToby.dinner41.de> <450E4BB7.40707@msu.edu> Message-ID: <450EABF3.50108@yahoo.co.uk> Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks for the tips. This morning the machine actually booted to the > IRIX login screen but crashed to a black screen as soon as I tried to do > anything graphics-intensive, so it looks like your assessments are > correct, it's definitely a sporadic hardware failure. Is this a 4D/35? (I've gone and deleted the original email now!) If so... ISTR that the ones with the better graphics options had a small fan over one of the chips, and some info on the web suggested that this was prone to failure. Worth a check. I'd got the impression that lots of them had the graphics upgraded after purchase, but they weren't also treated to the better chassis fan that the factory machines had - resulting in the machine slowly cooking itself :( Hopefully that's not the case with yours... cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 18 09:00:57 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:00:57 -0700 Subject: UK Science Museum Exhibition features PDP-1? Message-ID: > Does anyone know if this is a real working PDP-1 It is a non working machine on loan from the Computer History Museum. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 18 10:42:40 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:42:40 -0700 Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: <200609180534.k8I5YVQX018078@floodgap.com> References: <200609180534.k8I5YVQX018078@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 10:34 PM -0700 9/17/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > ITYM? I assume that stand for "I Think You Mean"? Strangely enough >> I mean 1000, that's what had me so confused. It starts at $03e8 for >> some reason. I had expected it to start at 4096. > >Did you forget the $? > > * = 1000 > >instead of > > * = $1000 > >? Bingo. That was it. Once that change was made, everything worked as expected. Thanks! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 18 06:42:42 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:42:42 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5S00KF9DT7G1E1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 12:42:54 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Saturday 16 September 2006 16:30, Allison wrote: >> >As much as I dislike PeeCees, at least they have the benefit of >> >standardization. >> >> Ah, it's using the definitive PC FDC. It was developed well before >> PCs standardized. PCs however don't offer much choice and if they did >> keep all the FDC features you could put a 8" on a PC and read SSSD! > >I actually *can* do that on a K6-2 box I've got sitting at work (and >have done it several times). I have a few that can too, so much for standard. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 18 07:06:49 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:06:49 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:32:01 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 9/16/2006 at 4:30 PM Allison wrote: > >>Ah, it's using the definitive PC FDC. It was developed well before >>PCs standardized. PCs however don't offer much choice and if they did >>keep all the FDC features you could put a 8" on a PC and read SSSD! > >You could?!? (if I'm parsing your statement correctly). IIRC, the original >PC FDC card had IBM's proprietary data separator on it (several hybrid >packagaes) and couldn't read SD/FM to save its life. It also had the 8272 >(non "A") part, so it had other problems with "alien" formats. Many can. The original IBM PC version was a an abortion. I'd always felt they worked hard making that mess. As to the A/nonA part thats less a problem than often thought. If it really was a problem you could change out the part. I have a few mid range ISA-8 FDC boards that use the 9216 data sep and they do read SD 8" and a bunch more. >Unless, of course, we're talking about PCs in the generic sense and not the >5150 per se. There, it's a crapshoot as to what capabilites any given FDC >card has. In my original statement I was refering to the generic and as "Standard" its still anything but. When you consider the number of drives and configurations the floppy whent though on PCs over the years it's a big mess. It's only that it's all behind us that was know where the bodies lie and we can assemble it from known history. but it lead to 3.5" drives with out drive select jumpers/switches and other "innovations". Over the lifetime of PCs I've worked with: 5.25 180k single sided 5.25 360k 2 sided 5.25 720k 2 sided 80 track 3.5" 720k 3.5" 1.44mb 3.5" 2.88mb Syquest, Zip, Jazz and other higher density removeables The only thing they didn't do stock was 8" SSSD and 8"DSDD, and hard sector! The aftermarket added those! Standard, really, more like a computer version of a leatherman.. ;) Allison From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 18 11:08:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:08:42 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609180908420912.000833E4@10.0.0.252> On 9/18/2006 at 8:06 AM Allison wrote: >5.25 180k single sided >5.25 360k 2 sided You've forgotten the original DOS 1.x 160K SS and 320K DS. I wonder if the conservative 8-sector approach on the part of IBM/Microsoft was the miserable track record of the original (IIRC, Shugart) drives. The one that came with my original 5150 eventually died when an inductor in the motor tach circuit opened up. I replaced it eventually. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 18 11:22:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:22:52 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609180922520133.0015292A@10.0.0.252> On 9/18/2006 at 8:06 AM Allison wrote: >3.5" 720k There were two "standard" versions of the 720K 3.5 format, differing in the cluster and FAT size. One was the definition put out by IBM sometime around MS-DOS 2.1 and the other, by Microsoft in MS-DOS 4.00 (which was an abomination). So, you haven't used 3.5" 1.3MB DOS diskettes? (2x8x1024)? Many USB floppies and Superdrives support the DOS-V format under Windows 2K and XP; though FORMAT doesn't appear to understand how to initializae blanks. ..and let's not forget the short-lived "special" distribution formats from IBM and Microsoft that got around 1.8MB per 3.5" floppy by using more sectors per track+interleave+skew(MS DMF) or differing sector sizes (IBM XDF). I suppose you could call those "standard", since they were officially-endorsed formats. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 18 11:27:48 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from Allison at "Sep 18, 6 08:06:49 am" Message-ID: <200609181627.k8IGRmc9015124@floodgap.com> > >You could?!? (if I'm parsing your statement correctly). IIRC, the original > >PC FDC card had IBM's proprietary data separator on it (several hybrid > >packagaes) and couldn't read SD/FM to save its life. It also had the 8272 > >(non "A") part, so it had other problems with "alien" formats. > > Many can. The original IBM PC version was a an abortion. ROTfreakingFL. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- One learns to itch where one can scratch. -- Ernest Bramah ----------------- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 18 12:21:41 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: <450CA5A6.6020608@gjcp.net> References: <450CA5A6.6020608@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Sep 2006, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > A couple more suggestions. Chemtronics sell (sold?) a rubber keyboard > > repair kit. It was a 2-pack thing that you mixed and then put a bit on > > the conductive rubber pad. The problem was that it's expensive, and once > > mixed you have to use the whole lot (enough for about 100 switches I > > think). > > I found, while repairing mid-80s synthesizers, that roughening the > rubber bit with sandpaper then painting on silver-loaded paint (from > Halfords, the stuff they have for fixing heated rear windscreens) worked > just great. I'm thinking that the finer side of an emery board would be the roughest one would use, right? This seems even better than rubbing the pads with a soft pencil -- less likely to wear off. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 18 12:27:34 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ATT 3b2 mouse Message-ID: Does anyone know what sort of interface the AT&T 3b2 uses for its mouse? I found one which is missing its mouse. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Sep 18 13:15:05 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:15:05 +0200 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? Message-ID: <450EE229.5040806@bluewin.ch> I found a scrapped box today at work : 2 8" floppydrives , RS232 and printer interfaces. Internally an F8 chipset ( F3850 / F3852 / F3854) with a WD1771 fdc. Strangely enough a set of floppies lay on top, labeled Cp/M, Basic CP/m Pascal etc. Was there ever a CP/M version for the F8 ?? Jos Dreesen From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Sep 18 13:29:43 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5S00KF9DT7G1E1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20060918182943.A626758545@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Allison > > > > >> > >> Ah, it's using the definitive PC FDC. It was developed well before > >> PCs standardized. PCs however don't offer much choice and if they did > >> keep all the FDC features you could put a 8" on a PC and read SSSD! > > > >I actually *can* do that on a K6-2 box I've got sitting at work (and > >have done it several times). > > I have a few that can too, so much for standard. ;) > You would need quite the desktop case to house an 8" floppy drive! :) Cheers, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Sep 18 13:33:08 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060918183308.3A23F58547@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > At 10:34 PM -0700 9/17/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > ITYM? I assume that stand for "I Think You Mean"? Strangely enough > >> I mean 1000, that's what had me so confused. It starts at $03e8 for > >> some reason. I had expected it to start at 4096. > > > >Did you forget the $? > > > > * = 1000 > > > >instead of > > > > * = $1000 > > > >? > > Bingo. That was it. Once that change was made, everything worked as > expected. Thanks! > > Zane Now we all expect an uber-cool graphics demo from you soon with flashy border effects! ;) Cheers, Bryan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 18 13:43:10 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609181627.k8IGRmc9015124@floodgap.com> References: <200609181627.k8IGRmc9015124@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060918114204.Q2663@shell.lmi.net> > Many can. The original IBM PC version was a an abortion. It was way worse than that. Calling it "an abortion" is an affront to those who are Pro-Choice. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 18 13:58:47 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:58:47 -0500 Subject: SCSI CD burner Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060918134321.05982a10@mail> At 02:35 PM 9/16/2006, CRC wrote: >The basic problem with commercial CD burners/players is that they >keep the laser diodes on when powered, although at the low power >required for reading. The life of run-of-the-mill laser diodes is on >the order of 10,000 (10.000) hours. Consequently, if you keep your >system on all the time you can expect one to two years of useful life >from the beast (some longer, some shorter). From : That document dates from 1994. You'd think that manufacturers would want to increase MTBF and eliminate failures as quickly as possible, so I find it hard to believe that LEDs are left on inside today's CD/DVDs just because it's hard to turn them off and they don't want to improve lifetimes. This info may be entirely relevant for 1980s drives, who knows? What sorts of other ancedotes and claimed facts do we have? From the CD-R FAQ: http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq05.html Subject: [5-2] How long do CD recorders last? (1998/04/06) The MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) on these drives is typically 50,000 to 100,000 hours, and they come with a 1 year warranty. Compare that to hard drives rated at between 500,000 and 1,000,000 hours with a 3 or 5 year warranty and that should give you some idea. Most of the drives available today weren't meant for mass production of CD-Rs. The only exceptions are the venerable Philips CDD 522, Kodak PCD 600, and Sony CDW-900E. By 2004, MTBF for consumer CD/DVD were up to 60K to 100K hours: http://www.computingondemand.com/reviews/storage-LiteOn-LDW-411S/page1.shtml And perhaps their MTBF was calculated with a 2% duty cycle, which would still mean they expect a consumer DVD-R to be able to burn several thousand discs. I suspect consumer losses are due more to dust and crud on discs... unless of course you simply don't want to trust manufacturer-provided MTBFs. Your average $50 Wal-Mart DVD drive has a 70K MTBF: http://www.liteon.com/prod/getProduct.do?cid=1_7_13&xml_id=4_2&menu_id=4_2_7 - John From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 18 14:06:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 12:06:58 -0700 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? In-Reply-To: <450EE229.5040806@bluewin.ch> References: <450EE229.5040806@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200609181206580442.00AB674E@10.0.0.252> n 9/18/2006 at 8:15 PM Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >I found a scrapped box today at work : > >2 8" floppydrives , RS232 and printer interfaces. Internally an F8 >chipset ( F3850 / F3852 / F3854) with a WD1771 fdc. >Strangely enough a set of floppies lay on top, labeled Cp/M, Basic CP/m >Pascal etc. Not to the best of my knowledge. Most F8 implementations tend to be RAM-starved. I wonder if the box is just part of a larger system, or if the disks are simply mislabeled. It's kind of nice to hear about something using the F8 other than the VideoBrain and Channel F, however. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 18 14:09:58 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 12:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <20060918114204.Q2663@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Sep 18, 6 11:43:10 am" Message-ID: <200609181909.k8IJ9wqa015112@floodgap.com> > > Many can. The original IBM PC version was a an abortion. > > It was way worse than that. > Calling it "an abortion" is an affront to those who are Pro-Choice. Why is that? You don't think, even as pro-choice, that it's something to be seen positively? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Light is faster than sound. Some folks look bright until you hear them speak. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 18 14:07:10 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:07:10 -0500 Subject: UK Science Museum Exhibition features PDP-1? In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0609180504g44230e4ew7318e5a092f5b10d@mail.gmail.co m> References: <11c909eb0609180504g44230e4ew7318e5a092f5b10d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060918140512.05c59dc8@mail> At 07:04 AM 9/18/2006, you wrote: >Does anyone know if this is a real working PDP-1 or a mocked up, emulated >thingy? >Might be interesting for the games nostalgia for those (like me) whose >classic computing interest overlaps to classic gaming. >http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/exhibitions/gameon/ This exhibition was in Chicago at the Museum of Science and Industry two years ago. Looked like a real PDP-1 to me. I took pictures and I thought I posted something to this list about my visit, but I can't find it now. It was interesting for the kids and I, for me if only for the experience of seeing an Amiga under glass in a museum exhibit. :-) - John From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Sep 18 14:42:37 2006 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:42:37 -0500 Subject: Cabinet Question Message-ID: <001a01c6db5a$98e59480$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> How does one bolt one DEC corporate cabinet (RK07-PA/H9642) to another corporate cabinet (H9612-AA)? The H9612 has the removable black area of the side panel, so I was able to put them next to each other and it looks seamless. How does one attach them with hardware, and what do I need? Thanks Julian From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Sep 18 14:42:30 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:42:30 -0500 Subject: Personal Iris IRIX issues and other related questions... Message-ID: 4D/35 has a seperate fan on the compute side to cool the 35 MHz R3000. I have a 4D/25 that a prior owner let choke with dust and the heat ate the R3010 and the RE2 on the graphics side, cooling is definitely an issue on these beasts. Is it Express or Eclipse graphics? Express will have the stereo connector. If eclipse, is it Turbo or normal? Josh, did you get my offlist E-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 18 15:07:21 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:07:21 +1200 Subject: Cabinet Question In-Reply-To: <001a01c6db5a$98e59480$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <001a01c6db5a$98e59480$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On 9/19/06, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > How does one bolt one DEC corporate cabinet (RK07-PA/H9642) to another > corporate cabinet (H9612-AA)? > > The H9612 has the removable black area of the side panel, so I was able to > put them next to each other and it looks seamless. > > How does one attach them with hardware, and what do I need? Hmm... it's been a while, but IIRC with many of the corporate cabs you remove both facing sides, then insert a special coupler "side" (approx 1" wide, with brackets to grab the pegs on both cabinets and lock them together). In the case of the side panels with removable faces, you might just park the cabs next to each other and see if the standard DEC straps fit - you'll probably see some rivnuts near the corners of each cabinet, right above the casters/leveler feet... the straps are hefty steel, about 1" wide and 6"-8" long with two holes on either side of a raised bump - two bolts per cabinet (4 total), and one bracket in front and one in back. Back in the day, we sometimes bolted cabs together if it seemed like it would work; other times, we just placed them side-by side and ran the cables around the back or through the bottoms. I do recall that we had a pair of RK07s bolted together, but I haven't seen that rig since about 1993 and can't recall how that particular cabnet set fastened together, but I do know it was shipped from DEC ready to bolt together (i.e. - ordered as a pair with all the appropriate hardware). You might look through your parts bins for those 4-hole straps... that might be the way to go if you don't have a full-sized cab-to-cab coupler (or you do have one and it doesn't fit). -ethan From cannings at earthlink.net Mon Sep 18 15:21:07 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:21:07 -0700 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) References: <000d01c6d937$0e967d50$6401a8c0@hal9000><450B6DD4.1000203@atarimuseum.com><450B82C2.4030301@atarimuseum.com><001701c6d9ae$9a254af0$6401a8c0@hal9000><000901c6d9f0$082d6910$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <000901c6db5f$f9c52220$6401a8c0@hal9000> > > Please enlighten me as to what type of trackball was used in the 1950s ? I > > am genuinely interested. Thank you. > > Trackballs and joysticks were used in 1950s era radar indicators, > mostly for fire control. I think the first use of the trackball was in > a Canadian aircraft radar set, used to designate targets with a > cursor. The X and Y positions were transmitted to the radar as a set > of synchro signals that were fed to come sort of fire control > computer. > > The earliest use that I know of for an X Y positioner for data input, > in this case a joystick, is the AN/MPG-1 artillery radar of 1945. > > -- > Will Thanks Will. My stuff started later in the1970s with the AN/UYA-4, then later AN/UYQ-21 and AN/UYQ-70 with the early stuff having stroker displays and the later was raster scan. Early stuff talked to AN/UYK-7 and 20s ( core memory computers! ) and the later to AN/UYK-43 and 44s. We still got radar position as Synchro-to-Digital signals but the trackballs were strictly digital with pulses off of shaft encoders. Thanks for the info on the older stuff. Best regards, Steven From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 18 15:47:46 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: <20060918183308.3A23F58547@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Sep 18, 2006 02:33:08 PM Message-ID: <200609182047.k8IKlkuf001700@onyx.spiritone.com> > Now we all expect an uber-cool graphics demo from you soon with > flashy border effects! ;) > > Cheers, > > Bryan OK, any recommendations on tutorials for learning Assembly Language on the C-64? The books I have seem to be generic 6502 books that predate the C-64. BTW, don't expect to see any uber-cool Demo's from me anytime soon. I've been playing with the C-64 when I should really be working on a couple other projects. :^) Zane From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Sep 18 16:49:11 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:49:11 -0400 Subject: HP 64000 PROM bucket manual Message-ID: <200609182149.k8ILnDuo023780@mail.bcpl.net> Does anyone have a copy of the HP 64516A PROM Programmer Module manual? This is for the 27512 chip bucket, not the main control card. I'd like to build one of these, so I'm specifically looking for the schematic and parts list from the manual. Thanks. -- Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 18 17:22:17 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: <200609182047.k8IKlkuf001700@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 18, 6 01:47:46 pm" Message-ID: <200609182222.k8IMMH3w022068@floodgap.com> > OK, any recommendations on tutorials for learning Assembly Language on the > C-64? The books I have seem to be generic 6502 books that predate the C-64. When you say learning assembly on the 64, was there something in particular you wanted to learn how to do? COMPUTE's Machine Language for Beginners is a good book, but it's mostly 6502 in general with some Commodore-specific sections. But I learned the most about Commodore programming from Mapping the 64 and the PRG. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- We're Starfleet officers ... weird is just part of the job. -- ST: Voyager - From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 18 17:07:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:07:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609171132010099.09134F4C@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 17, 6 11:32:01 am Message-ID: > > On 9/16/2006 at 4:30 PM Allison wrote: > > >Ah, it's using the definitive PC FDC. It was developed well before > >PCs standardized. PCs however don't offer much choice and if they did > >keep all the FDC features you could put a 8" on a PC and read SSSD! > > You could?!? (if I'm parsing your statement correctly). IIRC, the original > PC FDC card had IBM's proprietary data separator on it (several hybrid I don't recall there being any custom parts. All standard DIL ICs (VCO, phase detector circuit, etc). If anyone wants me to check, I have the card, and I have the techref (I have found times when the IBM card and the Techref don't agreee :-)). > packagaes) and couldn't read SD/FM to save its life. It also had the 8272 Rememebr the data rate of 8" SD is the same as that of 5.25" DD. I have an idea the data separate _will_ lock to 8" SD (which is still 250kbps), and you can then program the FDC chip to do single density operations. I have never tried this, though. > (non "A") part, so it had other problems with "alien" formats. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 18 17:34:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:34:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK Science Museum Exhibition features PDP-1? In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0609180504g44230e4ew7318e5a092f5b10d@mail.gmail.com> from "Pete Edwards" at Sep 18, 6 01:04:24 pm Message-ID: > http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/exhibitions/gameon/ > Precis below: What you didn't include was the _excessive_ (IMHO) admission charge (\pounds 8.50 I think from the web site). Now I'd not mind paying if the money was avtually going to computer (or other) preservation, but I suspect it isn't. I shall not be going. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 18 17:41:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:41:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060918134321.05982a10@mail> from "John Foust" at Sep 18, 6 01:58:47 pm Message-ID: > > At 02:35 PM 9/16/2006, CRC wrote: > >The basic problem with commercial CD burners/players is that they > >keep the laser diodes on when powered, although at the low power > >required for reading. The life of run-of-the-mill laser diodes is on > >the order of 10,000 (10.000) hours. Consequently, if you keep your > >system on all the time you can expect one to two years of useful life > >from the beast (some longer, some shorter). From : > > That document dates from 1994. You'd think that manufacturers would > want to increase MTBF and eliminate failures as quickly as possible, > so I find it hard to believe that LEDs are left on inside today's > CD/DVDs just because it's hard to turn them off and they don't want > to improve lifetimes. This info may be entirely relevant for > 1980s drives, who knows? What sorts of other ancedotes and > claimed facts do we have? It should be very easy to check this. Those IR detector cards sold for testing TV remote controls will detect a CD player or CD-ROM laser. Has anyone tried holding one over the pickup of a CD-ROM drive? I know for a fact that my ancient Philips external drive, which is actually based on an audio CD player, turns off the laser when not required. When there's a chance you've inserted a disk, it powers up the laster, tries to find the focus point, if it finds it, it spins up the disk and reads the TOC. If not, it powers down the laser. This is, I am pretty sure, shown in the service manual. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 18 17:14:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:14:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Stepdown convertor In-Reply-To: <200609172335.k8HNZ3Fe020234@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Sep 17, 6 06:35:03 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi, > > I have been having problems with my Dreamcast > (that I use to surf the 'net) resetting randomly. > > After checking out the power lines, it seems > that the stepdown convertor is at fault. It > has a crack and 2 bulging bits (where the > plastic has been molded with lumps instead of > flat) on the underside. > > How dangerous is this if it is the cause of > the problem? There are 3 basic types of these converters : 1) True isolating transformers. These are not common for this application (and are almost never sold as comverters to run 110V stuff in Europe). But IMHO they're the only truely safe solution _becasue_ the other types all assume that the insulation of the connected device is safe at 230V. It should be, but... 2) Autotransformers. A non-isolating transformer (one winding tapped at the midpoint). This what you probably have. 3) An electronic triac-based circuit. Basically, a lamp dimmer fixed to give the right RMS output. These are fine for running you travelling clothes iron or other heating device, but are no good for electronic stuff. In fact they will do a lot of damage (the peak voltage applied to the laod is still 230V). I had to rebuild a Mac+ analogue board that had suffeerd from one of these -- suffice it to say I had to replace most of the trnasistors and capacitors in the mains side of the PSU. > > It converts a 240V input to a 110V output (not > been able to check the exact specs on it, as > it's in use and very hot), as my Dreamcast I Now that worries me. A transformer should not be 'very hot'. Either it's not designed for 50Hz working (umikely), or it's underrated for the application. Do you have idea idea as to the power (VA) rating of the transformer and the power you machine takes? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 18 17:43:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:43:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? In-Reply-To: <200609181206580442.00AB674E@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 18, 6 12:06:58 pm Message-ID: > I wonder if the box is just part of a larger system, or if the disks are > simply mislabeled. It's kind of nice to hear about something using the F8 > other than the VideoBrain and Channel F, however. FWIW, some HP HPIL peripheals used a related chip (3870). IIRC, the 82161 tape drive, 82162 printer, 82165 GPIO and 82166 converter all used said microcontroller. The 82164 RS232 and 82169 HPIB used 8049s, the 9114 disk used a 6809 (!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 18 17:17:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:17:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: 68000 chips In-Reply-To: <200609172353.k8HNrokG020761@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Sep 17, 6 06:53:50 pm Message-ID: > I got some 68000 DIP chips for =A33.00 off of www.vint > agecomputermarketplace.com the other week. I finally > got around to checking that they are of use to me ( > by comparing them with notes I have on the internals > of my old A600 Rev 1.1) and discovered that they ma > y not be of use to me! :( > > Here's the low-down on them: > > MC68000P10 > 2 C91E DIP chip (rectangle with pins on l > ong sides) x 2 > QEDB9215 > > S (large logo S) SCN68000CAN64 > 2208N19 DIP chip x1 > 9035KE > > > Any idea's what computer they are from/for? These sound like normal 68000 CPUs in 64 pin DIL packages. Many machines used them -- the HP9816 I bought last week is one such. Old Macs (Mac 128, Mac 512, Mac+), other HP9000 stuff, Amigas, Atari STs, The Apple LW2NT printer I use on this PC, etc, etc, etc all use them. A complete list of machine would go on for many pages... -tony From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Sep 18 18:07:00 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: <200609182222.k8IMMH3w022068@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060918230700.58ECC58537@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Cameron Kaiser > > > OK, any recommendations on tutorials for learning Assembly Language on the > > C-64? The books I have seem to be generic 6502 books that predate the C-64. > > When you say learning assembly on the 64, was there something in particular > you wanted to learn how to do? > > COMPUTE's Machine Language for Beginners is a good book, but it's mostly > 6502 in general with some Commodore-specific sections. But I learned the most > about Commodore programming from Mapping the 64 and the PRG. > > Another good one is "Machine Language for the Commodore 64" by Jim Butterfield.. There is text version here: http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1767/files/c64/ and select "ml4c64.zip". His writing style is a lot like how he gives presentations. :) Cheers, Bryan From Steve at oceanrobots.net Mon Sep 18 18:14:11 2006 From: Steve at oceanrobots.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:14:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Stepdown convertor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450F2843.5060207@oceanrobots.net> The least expensive are half-wave rectfiers; fine for resistive loads, but not for most SMPS nor almost any linear supply. Have seen quite a few stepdown xfmrs ranging from laboratory qual with a Faraday shield in betweeen windings, to the usual junk sold to consumers. After you determine required power, I would derate by 50%. Have seen a couple of these xfmrs smoking when operating within spec at constant load and reasonable power factor; non-reactive load, scoped, no spikes. As we say, the performance specs are a function of the ink, not the build. Be careful, this type of thing is a common cause of fires. Tony Duell wrote: >>Hi, >> >>I have been having problems with my Dreamcast >>(that I use to surf the 'net) resetting randomly. >> >>After checking out the power lines, it seems >>that the stepdown convertor is at fault. It >>has a crack and 2 bulging bits (where the >>plastic has been molded with lumps instead of >>flat) on the underside. >> >>How dangerous is this if it is the cause of >>the problem? >> >> > >There are 3 basic types of these converters : > >1) True isolating transformers. These are not common for this application >(and are almost never sold as comverters to run 110V stuff in Europe). >But IMHO they're the only truely safe solution _becasue_ the other types >all assume that the insulation of the connected device is safe at 230V. >It should be, but... > >2) Autotransformers. A non-isolating transformer (one winding tapped at >the midpoint). This what you probably have. > >3) An electronic triac-based circuit. Basically, a lamp dimmer fixed to >give the right RMS output. These are fine for running you travelling >clothes iron or other heating device, but are no good for electronic >stuff. In fact they will do a lot of damage (the peak voltage applied to >the laod is still 230V). I had to rebuild a Mac+ analogue board that had >suffeerd from one of these -- suffice it to say I had to replace most of >the trnasistors and capacitors in the mains side of the PSU. > > > >>It converts a 240V input to a 110V output (not >>been able to check the exact specs on it, as >>it's in use and very hot), as my Dreamcast I >> >> > >Now that worries me. A transformer should not be 'very hot'. Either it's >not designed for 50Hz working (umikely), or it's underrated for the >application. Do you have idea idea as to the power (VA) rating of the >transformer and the power you machine takes? > >-tony > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 18 18:16:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:16:36 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609181616360616.018FEFA0@10.0.0.252> On 9/18/2006 at 11:07 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I don't recall there being any custom parts. All standard DIL ICs (VCO, >phase detector circuit, etc). If anyone wants me to check, I have the >card, and I have the techref (I have found times when the IBM card and >the Techref don't agreee :-)). Mine is in front of me: 2/3 length card, with what appear to be 3 hybrid thick-film packages at the lower left. The largest is labeled "5564252/IBM 22 1/1 8147 3719" and is about an inch square. There are two smaller (about half-inch square) packages adjacent to it. Date codes on the TTL are in the second half of 1981--and I assume that the "8147" on the third line of the big hybrid is also a date code. Could it be that export 5150s used a different setup? >Rememebr the data rate of 8" SD is the same as that of 5.25" DD. I have >an idea the data separate _will_ lock to 8" SD (which is still 250kbps), >and you can then program the FDC chip to do single density operations. I >have never tried this, though. Tried it myself years ago. Didn't work with my FDC. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 18 18:17:25 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060918161437.D16949@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > Rememebr the data rate of 8" SD is the same as that of 5.25" DD. I have > an idea the data separate _will_ lock to 8" SD (which is still 250kbps), > and you can then program the FDC chip to do single density operations. I > have never tried this, though. The IBM 5150 FDC board had NC to the FM (v MFM) pin on the 765, To program it to do "single density" would require that a little bit of that "programming" be done with solder. Many later chips, such as the 37C65 permitted switching between FM and MFM under software control. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Sep 18 18:18:00 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:18:00 -0500 Subject: IRIS update / interesting Mac II/x/fx failure mode (REPOST) Message-ID: Well, had a marathon evening over at Bear's place a week and a bit ago - brought over the disks from my ailing IRIS to see what we could scavenge. They had GL2-W2.5 on one disk, and assorted projects on the other (looks like this was one of the machines that Virginia Tech had (what was it's journey over here, I wonder...) and tried to port X11R5 to IRIS graphics on. (doesn't seem to have worked). Short answer - PSU seems OK, likely just noise from the improvised scope probes. Bad news: the pin headers on these beasts seem to be getting fragile. Bear's went out with the same symptoms (no memory seen, no graphics) after we tried a boardswap (to verify general functionality of a boardset, not to fix anything). If you have one of these beasts, pull your PSU apart and replace the 4 green paper caps on 2 boards (2 caps per board, one board is the 5v welder output, the other is the main chopper). They seem to be on their last legs, this is the second machine I've seen that suffered an olfactory capacitor failure. And the Mac stuff- IIs, IIxes and, perhaps, IIfxes have canned electrolytics on their logic boards that leak. This effluvium has, on two occasions that I have verified, eaten through the board trace that links the power-on circuitry to the power-on switch and keyboard port (one II, one IIx). If you have one of these machines, you might want to check your boards and clean them if they show signs of leakage. If you have a beast that will not power-on, I can point you where to look... it was the same area on both machines. No word yet if it messed with any of the other traces. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Sep 18 18:19:12 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:19:12 -0500 Subject: LGA CPU feature (may or may not be on-topic) (REPOST) Message-ID: Found a USIIi/440, went to put it in, my PROM didn't support it, had to have an update using a 300-333 MHz CPU. So it goes. Anyway, that's not a problem. I took a second look at the old card and got it working. For some computers that are almost on topic now, there's a bit of a hidden catch on the CPUs- they aren't firmly attached, and on some of them (I know that SGI PMT5 modules do not fall into this category, but HP PA-8000s and USIIis do) the connection is effected with a sheet of something with conductive rubber blips on it (sound familiar? Wonder how these will work in ~20 years). If you are not careful to go round-and-round the merry-go-round with the device to snug up the heatsink, the processor becomes canted and does not make good contact, and becomes generally unhappy and huffy and will not work (how's that for a run-on!) End of story- I now have an OT Sun Ultra 10 440MHz with Solaris 10 on it- Solaris is much happier on SPARCs than PCs. Western Digital IDE drives from the late '90s to early 2000s seem to be going bad at shocking rates now, also. Beware. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Sep 18 18:19:55 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:19:55 -0500 Subject: Arcade Trackballs (was: Re: C64 Fuse?) (REPOST) Message-ID: Regarding the patents: it is likely that what is being talked about is not the general "trackball" patent but a specific technique of ruggedizing a trackball for hostile situations. That would be my read, anyway. Scott From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 18 18:24:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:24:15 -0700 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609181624150060.0196EE67@10.0.0.252> On 9/18/2006 at 11:43 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >FWIW, some HP HPIL peripheals used a related chip (3870). IIRC, the 82161 >tape drive, 82162 printer, 82165 GPIO and 82166 converter all used said >microcontroller. The 82164 RS232 and 82169 HPIB used 8049s, the 9114 disk >used a 6809 (!). If you add the Z8, then the number of embedded designs using this chip architecture is huge indeed. But my reference was to "Personal Computers" using the F8 as the CPU. The "Channel F" and VideoBrain are the only ones that come to mind. Whilst reading about the VideoBrain, I discovered that Dash Chang was part of the development team. I met Dash a few years later when he was running Chang Labs and promoting his software for x80 systems. My memory is failing--was that software MicroPlan? It's been too long... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 18 18:47:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:47:26 -0700 Subject: LGA CPU feature (may or may not be on-topic) (REPOST) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609181647260915.01AC2B48@10.0.0.252> On 9/18/2006 at 6:19 PM Scott Quinn wrote: > End of story- I now have an OT Sun Ultra 10 440MHz with Solaris 10 on it- >Solaris is much happier on SPARCs than PCs. > Western Digital IDE drives from the late '90s to early 2000s seem to be going bad at shocking rates now, also. Beware. Funny you should mention that--last week I replaced a 9GB late 90's one on a servers. Fortunately, I had the SMART monitoring enabled on Linux and it diagnosed the "Drive is in imminent danger of failing" condition. Whole tracks were going sour. Replaced it with a 9GB Quantum of approximately the same age. Maybe I'll get another couple of years out of it. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 18 19:51:43 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609180908420912.000833E4@10.0.0.252> References: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609180908420912.000833E4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060918174638.P20615@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You've forgotten the original DOS 1.x 160K SS and 320K DS. I wonder if the > conservative 8-sector approach on the part of IBM/Microsoft was the > miserable track record of the original (IIRC, Shugart) drives. The one While there might be regional variations, I NEVER saw IBM use a Shugart in the 5150. For the first year or so, it seems like they were all Tandon TM100-1, and later IBM contracted to have drives made with IBM front panels by CDC? and others. But not Shugart. OTOH, TRS80 and Apple][ both used Shugart mechanisms (SA400 for TRS80, SA390?? for Apple(with Apple's own board on them)) Most of the early Shugart SA400s were 35 track, instead of 40. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 18 19:56:57 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ah, the weirdities of PC formats In-Reply-To: <200609180922520133.0015292A@10.0.0.252> References: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609180922520133.0015292A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060918175245.Q20615@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were two "standard" versions of the 720K 3.5 format, differing in the > cluster and FAT size. One was the definition put out by IBM sometime > around MS-DOS 2.1 and the other, by Microsoft in MS-DOS 4.00 (which was an > abomination). First official support for 3.5" in PC-DOS was V3.20. First official support for 3.5" in MS-DOS (OEM'd) was V2.11. A few machines added support for 3.5" on their own (HP, Gavilan, etc.) Several versions of Windoze FORMAT (COMMAND LINE!) support /T:80/N:8 which gives a 640K format! /F:x support seems to have been dropped completely. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 18 20:00:18 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <20060918182943.A626758545@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060918182943.A626758545@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20060918175739.T20615@shell.lmi.net> > > >> keep all the FDC features you could put a 8" on a PC and read SSSD! On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Bryan Pope wrote: > You would need quite the desktop case to house an 8" floppy > drive! :) It says put an 8" ON a PC, not IN it. If you use two side by side drives horizontally, then it is a lot more stable to put the PC on the 8" From ken at seefried.com Mon Sep 18 20:33:16 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:33:16 -0400 Subject: ATT 3b2 mouse In-Reply-To: <200609190106.k8J15vs5050064@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609190106.k8J15vs5050064@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060919013316.13375.qmail@seefried.com> > From: David Griffith > > Does anyone know what sort of interface the AT&T 3b2 uses for its mouse? > I found one which is missing its mouse. > I've never seen a 3b2 with a graphics display. While I've seen an awful lot of 3b2s (AT&T carpet bombed Gatech with them in the mid-80s), that doesn't mean there wasn't one. Do you perhaps mean the AT&T Blit family of graphics terminals (Jerq/Blit/5620/630/730) that were often serially attached to 3b2s? If so, http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/att/5620/5620_faq.html should be a start, as well as any surviving archive of comp.terminals.tty5620. These things are nifty. Ken From gkaufman at the-planet.org Mon Sep 18 20:53:38 2006 From: gkaufman at the-planet.org (Gary E Kaufman) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:53:38 -0400 Subject: RX02 drives / RT11 Message-ID: <450F4DA2.1050104@the-planet.org> I'm relearning RT-11 on an 11/23 I was kindly given (thanks David!). I'm having trouble with the RX02 drives. I can boot RT11, and .format DY1: About 1/3rd of the time I get an error while formatting, this is on known good 8" SS/DD media that has been extensively tested on a CP/M system in both SD and DD modes. On media which does format fine, I get gobs of bad blocks using .initialize/badblocks DY1: The only media that seems to work fine is "real" RX02 media. Is the RX02 incapable of formatting it's own media? Is there a common hardware problem that I should look for? Filter caps? Clean the stepper motor? Many thanks. - Gary From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 18 21:49:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:49:08 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <20060918174638.P20615@shell.lmi.net> References: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609180908420912.000833E4@10.0.0.252> <20060918174638.P20615@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609181949080048.000275D9@10.0.0.252> On 9/18/2006 at 5:51 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >But not Shugart. OTOH, TRS80 and Apple][ both used Shugart mechanisms >(SA400 for TRS80, SA390?? for Apple(with Apple's own board on them)) >Most of the early Shugart SA400s were 35 track, instead of 40. I had a Shugart SA450 on a PC, but for the life of me, I don't recall if I bought it as a second drive or if it was the first one that came with the machine. An unremarkable drive in any case. Perhaps the original drive was a TM-100-1; I don't recall since I migrated to half-highs soon after purchasing the system and added a Micropolis quad density (full height) in the opened-up space. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 18 23:40:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:40:08 -0700 Subject: Ah, the weirdities of PC formats In-Reply-To: <20060918175245.Q20615@shell.lmi.net> References: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609180922520133.0015292A@10.0.0.252> <20060918175245.Q20615@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609182140080806.0068186F@10.0.0.252> On 9/18/2006 at 5:56 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >First official support for 3.5" in PC-DOS was V3.20. >First official support for 3.5" in MS-DOS (OEM'd) was V2.11. >A few machines added support for 3.5" on their own (HP, Gavilan, etc.) Any DOS (PC or MS) could support 720K with a DEVICE= driver after version 2.0. And if you were lucky enough to have the Microsoft OEM tech bulletins, you could do it with DOS 1.x. As a matter of fact, didn't Godbout initially offer support for PC-DOS by taking a stock $40 copy of PC-DOS 1.0/1.1 and supplying his own IBMBIO.COM/IO.SYS? I seem to recall some elaborate ritual with it. I still have the OEM customization guides for MS-DOS 1.25 and 2.00. The preface to 2.00 states that eventually it would support the entire set of Xenix functions. Uh-huh. But there was a glorious mixup in PC/MS 720K formats. I'm not sure, but I think they even used different media bytes. One could in PC-DOS 3.?0 use DRIVPARM in CONFIG.SYS but you had to suffix the DRIVPARM with a string of control-A's. >Several versions of Windoze FORMAT (COMMAND LINE!) support /T:80/N:8 >which gives a 640K format! >/F:x support seems to have been dropped completely. AFAIK, the code's still in the kernel driver, but FORMAT's just gotten dumb, probably intentionally. And if you hook up a 360K 5.25" drive and set the BIOS up for it, XP still won't format the blasted thing, although it'll read and write just fine. I think MS would love to kill off floppy support entirely. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 18 23:49:27 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:49:27 -0400 Subject: C64 ASM Question (Solved) In-Reply-To: References: <200609180534.k8I5YVQX018078@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200609190049.27195.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 18 September 2006 11:42 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:34 PM -0700 9/17/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > ITYM? I assume that stand for "I Think You Mean"? Strangely enough > >> > >> I mean 1000, that's what had me so confused. It starts at $03e8 for > >> some reason. I had expected it to start at 4096. > > > >Did you forget the $? > > > > * = 1000 > > > >instead of > > > > * = $1000 > > > >? > > Bingo. That was it. Once that change was made, everything worked as > expected. Thanks! > > Zane I remember the first time I tried assembling some simple little program to run under CP/M, and making exactly that mistake -- "ORG 100" instead of "ORG 100H" or whatever the syntax was. It crashed and burned, of course, and provided some rather interesting (for a minute or so) graphic patterns on the screen before I hit the reset button. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 18 23:58:11 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ATT 3b2 mouse In-Reply-To: <20060919013316.13375.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200609190106.k8J15vs5050064@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060919013316.13375.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Ken Seefried wrote: > > From: David Griffith > > > > Does anyone know what sort of interface the AT&T 3b2 uses for its mouse? > > I found one which is missing its mouse. > > I've never seen a 3b2 with a graphics display. While I've seen an awful lot > of 3b2s (AT&T carpet bombed Gatech with them in the mid-80s), that doesn't > mean there wasn't one. > > Do you perhaps mean the AT&T Blit family of graphics terminals > (Jerq/Blit/5620/630/730) that were often serially attached to 3b2s? If so, > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/att/5620/5620_faq.html should > be a start, as well as any surviving archive of comp.terminals.tty5620. > These things are nifty. Sorry. I meant the 3b1 (aka Unix PC) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Sep 19 00:01:34 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:01:34 -0700 Subject: HP disk drive CPUs (was Re: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ?) In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:43:40 +0100 (BST)") References: Message-ID: <200609190501.k8J51Yug054484@lots.reanimators.org> Tony Duell wrote: > FWIW, some HP HPIL peripheals used a related chip (3870). IIRC, the 82161 > tape drive, 82162 printer, 82165 GPIO and 82166 converter all used said > microcontroller. The 82164 RS232 and 82169 HPIB used 8049s, the 9114 disk > used a 6809 (!). I don't think the 9114 using a 6809 is all that unusual; other 91xx (and I think some of the 794x) devices did that too. -Frank McConnell From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Sep 19 00:07:49 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:07:49 -0500 Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) Message-ID: <37DC0A59-FF42-4E1B-BBCD-553EA5D560B1@earthlink.net> As of September 30, 2006, the last PDP-11 that rolled off the line will finally be 10 years old. The PDP-11 EOL was actually September 30,1996. As an interesting tidbit, the life span of the PDP-11 still has the PC beat by two years at this point in time. Here's to many more years of enjoyable service... From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Sep 19 00:12:34 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 06:12:34 +0100 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? In-Reply-To: <200609181624150060.0196EE67@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <005e01c6dbaa$3738f240$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > If you add the Z8, then the number of embedded designs using this chip > architecture is huge indeed. The Z8 has nothing in common with the F8 > > But my reference was to "Personal Computers" using the F8 as the CPU. The > "Channel F" and VideoBrain are the only ones that come to mind. and it's remarkable that there are even these two. From a programmers point of view the F8 was a real abortion: the only processor that I've heard of in which a Jump corrumpts the contents of the accumulator. (When I wrote an emulator for it I asked the "customer"* whether they prefered the emulator to provide the same (but undocumented!) corruption as the real chip, or a different "undefined" value. They though the latter was safer. * The EE department at the University.) Andy From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Sep 19 00:14:08 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:14:08 +0800 Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <37DC0A59-FF42-4E1B-BBCD-553EA5D560B1@earthlink.net> References: <37DC0A59-FF42-4E1B-BBCD-553EA5D560B1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 9/19/06, Julian Wolfe wrote: > As of September 30, 2006, the last PDP-11 that rolled off the line > will finally be 10 years old. > > The PDP-11 EOL was actually September 30,1996. Was this the 11/93 or 11/94? From technobug at comcast.net Tue Sep 19 00:42:33 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:42:33 -0700 Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <200609190106.k8J15vs0050064@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609190106.k8J15vs0050064@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5BFD8617-08EE-4FB9-8C35-B4239274939B@comcast.net> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:58:47 -0500, John Foust wrote: > At 02:35 PM 9/16/2006, CRC wrote: >> The basic problem with commercial CD burners/players is that they >> keep the laser diodes on when powered, although at the low power >> required for reading. The life of run-of-the-mill laser diodes is on >> the order of 10,000 (10.000) hours. Consequently, if you keep your >> system on all the time you can expect one to two years of useful life >> from the beast (some longer, some shorter). From > www.wtec.org/ loyola/opto/ad_rohm.htm>: > > That document dates from 1994. You'd think that manufacturers would > want to increase MTBF and eliminate failures as quickly as possible, > so I find it hard to believe that LEDs are left on inside today's > CD/DVDs just because it's hard to turn them off and they don't want > to improve lifetimes. This info may be entirely relevant for > 1980s drives, who knows? My intent was to address classic computer equipment. MTBFs of Laser Diodes (LDs - not LEDs) has definitely increased over the last 10 years. However, access to information of the ones used in current CD equipment is privy only to large scale manufacturers. Looking at LDs that are used in fiber optic transmission shows a substantial increase in MTBF over the past 10 years. However, I would hold off on buying into the BlueRay recorders - blue LDs are still have low MTBFs. CD equipment production has progressed to commodity class and every penny represents a margin change of $10k / 1M units - design is done by taking out things until the unit doesn't work :=)). Adding the circuitry to turn off the laser is not difficult, but it costs money... > What sorts of other ancedotes and > claimed facts do we have? > > From the CD-R FAQ: http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq05.html > > Subject: [5-2] How long do CD recorders last? (1998/04/06) > > The MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) on these drives is > typically 50,000 > to 100,000 hours, and they come with a 1 year warranty. Compare > that to > hard drives rated at between 500,000 and 1,000,000 hours with a 3 > or 5 > year warranty and that should give you some idea. Most of the drives > available today weren't meant for mass production of CD-Rs. The only > exceptions are the venerable Philips CDD 522, Kodak PCD 600, and > Sony CDW-900E. > I assume that the FAQ uses manufacturers stated MTBF - there is no citation for their source. > By 2004, MTBF for consumer CD/DVD were up to 60K to 100K hours: > > http://www.computingondemand.com/reviews/storage-LiteOn-LDW-411S/ > page1.shtml > > And perhaps their MTBF was calculated with a 2% duty cycle, which > would still mean they expect a consumer DVD-R to be able to burn > several thousand discs. I suspect consumer losses are due more to > dust and crud on discs... unless of course you simply don't want to > trust manufacturer-provided MTBFs. In most cases, the criteria for the MTBF is not stated as indicated by your suposition. One has to look at MTBF at temperature since Optek shows a factor of greater than 25 in MTBF between 25 and 70 C. If the tests were run at 20C and you run the device at 50C you can expect 6K and 9K hours vs 70K and 100K hours respectively (based on ratios from the Optek MTBF data for their OPV200 series high reliability LDs). At 70C it's around 1.5K and 2K hours. It's not that I don't trust the manufacturer, it's just that there is insufficient info and the manufacturer's shills will present their most favorable data. Besides the mechanical/electrical failures, which there are many, the LDs power loss generally results in the inability to record and read reliably. Note that the LD does not touch the disk and unless it is used in a smoky/cruddy atmosphere there should be no failure in the optical link. In trying to repair a good number of CDR/W I have recovered only several units by cleaning the LD lens. Recording generally uses virgin disks and an occasional brushing of the lens does help. > > Your average $50 Wal-Mart DVD drive has a 70K MTBF: > > http://www.liteon.com/prod/getProduct.do? > cid=1_7_13&xml_id=4_2&menu_id=4_2_7 Note that the stated MTBF is in POH - power on hours - not usage hours. I guess if you use it all bets are off :=P CRC From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 19 00:43:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:43:01 -0700 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? In-Reply-To: <005e01c6dbaa$3738f240$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <005e01c6dbaa$3738f240$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <200609182243010671.00A1AA30@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2006 at 6:12 AM Andy Holt wrote: >The Z8 has nothing in common with the F8 Quite correct--I've been breathing lacquer fumes this evening. I was trying to think of the successor--the Mostek 3870. Cheers, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Sep 19 00:59:40 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:59:40 -0700 Subject: ATT 3b1 mouse Message-ID: > > > Does anyone know what sort of interface the AT&T 3b2 uses for its mouse? > > > I found one which is missing its mouse. > Sorry. I meant the 3b1 (aka Unix PC) I think it was a logitech two button rectangular wedge shaped mouse used by lots of vendors. They came in both serial and parallel, I think the AT&T one was serial. It has been a long time. Both had a D 9 pin connector. A picture search on google "3b1" brought up a poor picture of the mouse with one. Hard to see what it actuually is. I had several 3B1s go through my hands in the early 1990s. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Sep 19 01:13:07 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:13:07 -0700 Subject: RX02 drives / RT11 In-Reply-To: <450F4DA2.1050104@the-planet.org> References: <450F4DA2.1050104@the-planet.org> Message-ID: <200609182313.08265.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 18 September 2006 18:53, Gary E Kaufman wrote: --snip-- > The only media that seems to work fine is "real" RX02 media. > > Is the RX02 incapable of formatting it's own media? Is there a common > hardware problem that I should look for? Filter caps? Clean the > stepper motor? The RX02 cannot format "raw" diskettes. It can "re-format" RX01 diskettes to RX02 format diskettes and vice-versa. Software is available for both the PDP-11 and PDP-8 to do so. RX01 diskettes are essentially IBM System/34 compatible diskettes; i.e., IBM 3470 format. One can "create" IBM 3470/RX01 diskettes using "PUTR" on a PC which has a FDC connected to an 8" Shugart floppy diskette drive. See: http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html for an excellent 8" floppy adapter for a PC. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Sep 18 11:36:38 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:36:38 +0100 Subject: OT: Stepdown convertor In-Reply-To: <200609172335.k8HNZ3Fe020234@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609172335.k8HNZ3Fe020234@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <450ECB16.2050700@gjcp.net> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Hi, > > I have been having problems with my Dreamcast > (that I use to surf the 'net) resetting randomly. > > After checking out the power lines, it seems > that the stepdown convertor is at fault. It > has a crack and 2 bulging bits (where the > plastic has been molded with lumps instead of > flat) on the underside. > > How dangerous is this if it is the cause of > the problem? Sounds like it's overheating. > It converts a 240V input to a 110V output (not > been able to check the exact specs on it, as > it's in use and very hot), as my Dreamcast I > am using is a Japanese model (my UK model > isn't fully functioning). I'm not well up on Dreamcasts. Do they have an external power supply? If they do, then you could use your UK PSU. Other than that, you might get an old switchable 220/110v psu and make it into an autotransformer. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 18 14:09:25 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:09:25 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5S000ASYHLTO60@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:43:10 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Many can. The original IBM PC version was a an abortion. > >It was way worse than that. >Calling it "an abortion" is an affront to those who are Pro-Choice. > I always miss that association.. But maybe the words atrocity, fubar and low grade hack get closer to how I feel. Never did feel the PC was good design, though I've held it up as an example of a bad design made to work passibly. Allison From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Sep 18 16:01:58 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:01:58 -0700 Subject: Personal Iris IRIX issues and other related questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450F0946.3030108@msu.edu> My 4D/35 does have the cooling fan for the R3000 (and it is spinning OK, amazingly enough). The hardware in the machine is GR 1.2, Turbo, with the Bitplane Expansion, and Z-Buffer. And no, I didn't get your offlist e-mail... Thanks! Josh Scott Quinn wrote: > 4D/35 has a seperate fan on the compute side to cool the 35 MHz R3000. > I have a 4D/25 that a prior owner let choke with dust and the heat ate the R3010 and > the RE2 on the graphics side, cooling is definitely an issue on these beasts. > > Is it Express or Eclipse graphics? Express will have the stereo connector. > > If eclipse, is it Turbo or normal? > > Josh, did you get my offlist E-mail? > > > > > > From jb at seaengineering.com Mon Sep 18 17:30:18 2006 From: jb at seaengineering.com (Jim Barry) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 12:30:18 -1000 Subject: ProPort 656 audio / DSP box and Sun interface board... Message-ID: <000901c6db72$05e27640$6701a8c0@JB> Do you still have this ProPort 656 and scsi board? Thanks, Jim Barry Sea Engineering, Inc. (808) 259-7966 ext. 23 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 18 20:18:01 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:18:01 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5T00EU8FJUCED1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:51:43 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> You've forgotten the original DOS 1.x 160K SS and 320K DS. I wonder if the >> conservative 8-sector approach on the part of IBM/Microsoft was the >> miserable track record of the original (IIRC, Shugart) drives. The one >While there might be regional variations, I NEVER saw IBM use a >Shugart in the 5150. For the first year or so, it seems like they were >all Tandon TM100-1, and later IBM contracted to have drives made with IBM >front panels by CDC? and others. Likely because every working SA400 (400L) I have has been repaired or lightly used, lousy track record for reliability. >But not Shugart. OTOH, TRS80 and Apple][ both used Shugart mechanisms >(SA400 for TRS80, SA390?? for Apple(with Apple's own board on them)) >Most of the early Shugart SA400s were 35 track, instead of 40. By 1980 the SA400 was always the SA400L 40 track version. One issue of the time was shortages of TTL ICs and disk drive getting scarce due to demand. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 18 20:46:13 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 21:46:13 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5T0059BGUUM661@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:00:18 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > >> keep all the FDC features you could put a 8" on a PC and read SSSD! >On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Bryan Pope wrote: >> You would need quite the desktop case to house an 8" floppy >> drive! :) > >It says put an 8" ON a PC, not IN it. >If you use two side by side drives horizontally, >then it is a lot more stable to put the PC on the 8" Of course starting with the half height 8" drives helps. They are only about 2.5" tall. What is more interesting is what a PC with two 8" drives would weigh in at! Most of the good 8" drives were a very solid hunk of aluminum. I have a heath H207 dual drive. That's two half height doubled sided drives one atop the other and a linear power supply. Weighs more than full up NS* Horizon (wood case)! It's only 13.5x5.5x17 inches. Allison From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 19 01:28:26 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ATT 3b1 mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Paxton Hoag wrote: > > > > Does anyone know what sort of interface the AT&T 3b2 uses for its mouse? > > > > I found one which is missing its mouse. > > > Sorry. I meant the 3b1 (aka Unix PC) > > I think it was a logitech two button rectangular wedge shaped mouse > used by lots of vendors. They came in both serial and parallel, I > think the AT&T one was serial. It has been a long time. Both had a D 9 > pin connector. > > A picture search on google "3b1" brought up a poor picture of the > mouse with one. Hard to see what it actuually is. > > I had several 3B1s go through my hands in the early 1990s. Logitech sounds right. Here's a good picture clearly showing a 3-button mouse: http://www.ajwm.net/amayer/papers/unixpc.html -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 19 01:19:48 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 01:19:48 -0500 Subject: SCSI CD burner In-Reply-To: <5BFD8617-08EE-4FB9-8C35-B4239274939B@comcast.net> References: <200609190106.k8J15vs0050064@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5BFD8617-08EE-4FB9-8C35-B4239274939B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060919011814.05a9fde8@mail> At 12:42 AM 9/19/2006, you wrote: >Note that the stated MTBF is in POH - power on hours - not usage >hours. I guess if you use it all bets are off :=P And I found another reference that assumed a 25% duty cycle for those commodity Liteon drives, not 2%. - John From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Sep 19 01:43:41 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:43:41 +0200 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences References: <0J5T0059BGUUM661@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <001601c6dbb6$f797cf50$2101a8c0@finans> > > > >It says put an 8" ON a PC, not IN it. > >If you use two side by side drives horizontally, > >then it is a lot more stable to put the PC on the 8" > You would have trouble putting them IN a PC, as most 8" drives I know about, use +24VDC, which is not found in a PC. I also have/had a horrible one, originating from a Philips mini (PTS6000) which used 115VAC for one of the motors Nico From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 19 02:09:06 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <001601c6dbb6$f797cf50$2101a8c0@finans> References: <0J5T0059BGUUM661@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <001601c6dbb6$f797cf50$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Sep 2006, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > > > >It says put an 8" ON a PC, not IN it. > > >If you use two side by side drives horizontally, > > >then it is a lot more stable to put the PC on the 8" > > > You would have trouble putting them IN a PC, as most 8" drives I know about, > use +24VDC, which is not found in a PC. > I also have/had a horrible one, originating from a Philips mini (PTS6000) > which used 115VAC for one of the motors I have a new-in-box Qumetrak 842 that proudly displays a label reading "115V/60Hz" right below the spindle motor. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Sep 19 02:47:54 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:47:54 +0100 Subject: OT: Stepdown convertor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 18/9/06 23:14, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> It converts a 240V input to a 110V output (not >> been able to check the exact specs on it, as >> it's in use and very hot), as my Dreamcast I > > Now that worries me. A transformer should not be 'very hot'. Either it's > not designed for 50Hz working (umikely), or it's underrated for the > application. Do you have idea idea as to the power (VA) rating of the > transformer and the power you machine takes? I've just checked my UK Dreamcast and it's only rated at 0.27A which is what, 65W? Perhaps the OP is using the first type of transformer you listed, must admit I'm guilty of that one many years ago and now use a heavy isolating step-down unit bought specifically for the task..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Sep 19 02:48:50 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:48:50 +0100 Subject: OT: Stepdown convertor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bah! On 18/9/06 23:14, "Tony Duell" wrote: > 3) An electronic triac-based circuit. Basically, a lamp dimmer fixed to > give the right RMS output. These are fine for running you travelling > clothes iron or other heating device, but are no good for electronic > stuff. In fact they will do a lot of damage (the peak voltage applied to > the laod is still 230V). I had to rebuild a Mac+ analogue board that had > suffeerd from one of these -- suffice it to say I had to replace most of > the trnasistors and capacitors in the mains side of the PSU. Of course, I meant this one, not the first one! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 19 05:45:43 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 05:45:43 -0500 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5T0059BGUUM661@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609190949.k8J9naSN008943@hosting.monisys.ca> > >> You would need quite the desktop case to house an 8" floppy > >> drive! :) > What is more interesting is what a PC with two 8" drives would > weigh in at! Most of the good 8" drives were a very solid hunk > of aluminum. There *IS* a (somewhat) PC with dual full-sized 8" drives mounted in it - the Nec APC: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/nec/index.htm I can tell you that this thing is big and HEAVY - especially the color one. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 19 06:03:57 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 07:03:57 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5U006UA6O94ZO4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:22:52 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 9/18/2006 at 8:06 AM Allison wrote: > >>3.5" 720k > >There were two "standard" versions of the 720K 3.5 format, differing in the >cluster and FAT size. One was the definition put out by IBM sometime >around MS-DOS 2.1 and the other, by Microsoft in MS-DOS 4.00 (which was an >abomination). > >So, you haven't used 3.5" 1.3MB DOS diskettes? (2x8x1024)? Many USB >floppies and Superdrives support the DOS-V format under Windows 2K and XP; >though FORMAT doesn't appear to understand how to initializae blanks. > >...and let's not forget the short-lived "special" distribution formats from >IBM and Microsoft that got around 1.8MB per 3.5" floppy by using more >sectors per track+interleave+skew(MS DMF) or differing sector sizes (IBM >XDF). I suppose you could call those "standard", since they were >officially-endorsed formats. > Just goes to prove PCs and what standards. ;) They were all over the map just like all the other boxen on storage. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 19 06:05:37 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 07:05:37 -0400 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? Message-ID: <0J5U006LB6R15UW3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? > From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:15:05 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >I found a scrapped box today at work : > >2 8" floppydrives , RS232 and printer interfaces. Internally an F8 >chipset ( F3850 / F3852 / F3854) with a WD1771 fdc. >Strangely enough a set of floppies lay on top, labeled Cp/M, Basic CP/m >Pascal etc. > >Was there ever a CP/M version for the F8 ?? > > Jos Dreesen No. The F8 at best was a microcontroller. If anything the unit was a smart floppy controller for a CP/M system. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 19 06:09:46 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 07:09:46 -0400 Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) Message-ID: <0J5U00MGJ6XXZ2J2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) > From: Julian Wolfe > Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:07:49 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >As of September 30, 2006, the last PDP-11 that rolled off the line >will finally be 10 years old. > >The PDP-11 EOL was actually September 30,1996. Mentec continued it and you can still buy new 11 based boards. Allison From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Sep 19 06:59:46 2006 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:59:46 +0200 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? In-Reply-To: <450EE229.5040806@bluewin.ch> References: <450EE229.5040806@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <450FDBB2.2010100@iais.fraunhofer.de> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel schrieb: > > I found a scrapped box today at work : > > 2 8" floppydrives , RS232 and printer interfaces. Internally an F8 > chipset ( F3850 / F3852 / F3854) with a WD1771 fdc. > Strangely enough a set of floppies lay on top, labeled Cp/M, Basic > CP/m Pascal etc. > > Was there ever a CP/M version for the F8 ?? > > Jos Dreesen The original F8 processor (not the later single chip 3870) is a rather obscure beast which has ROM modules that contain its own independent PC and stack. Its focus was largely embedded applications and also video consoles - the board you have found might be an intelligent I/O subsystem that was connected to a real CP/M system if the presence of CP/M floppies is not just pure coincidence. The F8 itself is not at all compatible to the 8080 or Z80 so it won't run CP/M, not even emulate it. -- Holger From philpem at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 19 07:12:20 2006 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:12:20 +0100 Subject: LGA CPU feature (may or may not be on-topic) (REPOST) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450FDEA4.4030301@philpem.me.uk> Scott Quinn wrote: > Western Digital IDE drives from the late '90s to early 2000s seem to be going bad at shocking rates now, also. Beware. I've always found WD drives to be shaky at the best of times. So far the best drives I've found (from a reliability standpoint) are the older Maxtors (DiamondMax 60 through D740X; the latter being a Quantum-designed drive) and the newer Seagates (U4 through Momentus 5400/8 and Barracuda 7200.9). The old IBM DeskStars are nice too - the 34GXP and the 75GXP (when firmware-patched with DFT). I've got a 15GB 75GXP (DTLA-372015) in my server and a 20GB 34GXP (DPTA-372050) in my desktop. I've got an 80GB Maxtor D740X showing 18169 hours of run time, an 80GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 SATA2 with 1642 hours, 11347 hours on the 20GB 34GXP, and 1470 hours on the 40GB Momentus (Seagate ST94813A) in my laptop. Not too bad for a bunch of desktop-class drives. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny philpem at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 19 07:14:53 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:14:53 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5U00MR99YGLQZ4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 05:45:43 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> >> You would need quite the desktop case to house an 8" floppy >> >> drive! :) > >> What is more interesting is what a PC with two 8" drives would >> weigh in at! Most of the good 8" drives were a very solid hunk >> of aluminum. > >There *IS* a (somewhat) PC with dual full-sized 8" drives mounted >in it - the Nec APC: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/nec/index.htm > >I can tell you that this thing is big and HEAVY - especially the >color one. Having used a color one it was a much better machine than the PCxt (this is back when they were both new). The Color CRT besides being big was way over my lift limit! Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 19 09:15:07 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:15:07 +0000 Subject: UK Science Museum Exhibition features PDP-1? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450FFB6B.9090405@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/exhibitions/gameon/ >> Precis below: > > What you didn't include was the _excessive_ (IMHO) admission charge > (\pounds 8.50 I think from the web site). Wow - you're saying that despite all their fanfare a few years ago about the museum now being free admission, they're starting to charge again for specific exhibits? I must admit that would put me off somewhat - not the fact that there's a charge, but the fact that there was so much marketing hype around them being a free museum even when they're not. > Now I'd not mind paying if the > money was avtually going to computer (or other) preservation, but I > suspect it isn't. If the exhibition's come from the US then I suppose it all goes on shipping costs and associated insurance. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Sep 19 09:02:40 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:02:40 +0100 Subject: UK Science Museum Exhibition features PDP-1? In-Reply-To: <450FFB6B.9090405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <000801c6dbf4$44e613b0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > Wow - you're saying that despite all their fanfare a few years > ago about the > museum now being free admission, they're starting to charge again > for specific exhibits? They have never stopped charging for special events. - and the "free admission" is only if you're not taken in by all the attempts to encourage you to pay. > If the exhibition's come from the US then I suppose it all goes > on shipping > costs and associated insurance. I'm sure there'll be a profit element in there as well - museum funding isn't particularly generous. Andy From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 19 08:49:55 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:49:55 -0500 Subject: UK Science Museum Exhibition features PDP-1? In-Reply-To: References: <11c909eb0609180504g44230e4ew7318e5a092f5b10d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060919083636.04ab88b0@mail> At 05:34 PM 9/18/2006, Tony Duell wrote: >What you didn't include was the _excessive_ (IMHO) admission charge >(\pounds 8.50 I think from the web site). Now I'd not mind paying if the >money was actually going to computer (or other) preservation, but I >suspect it isn't. I shall not be going. From my perspective, "Game On" was great for my kids: They hear me talking about old computers but haven't ever been face-to-face with a PDP or a vector display or have much understanding that computers were indeed only monochrome for quite a while. It's drive-by instruction, of course, as are many museum exhibits, but it's about exposure and planting seeds. They got to see a number of computers and consoles and examples of old game graphics that they'd never seen. Of course, they enjoyed playing the old and new games. As to whether the right person got paid... my suspicions are the exact opposite of yours. Someone must've been paid. Would any classic collector or computer museum send their baby on an 18-month twelve-spot trip around the world in various shipping crates without handsome compensation and someone else paying the insurance? Who got paid to collect and prep several dozen classic computers and game consoles? (Sellam? :-) And perhaps you don't have recent exposure to prices at tourist spots. This summer I visited the excellent indoor restoration of the Apollo-era Saturn V at NASA in Florida. Full-access tour tickets for two adults and four kids came to US $300; lunch in the mostly fast-food cafeteria was $72. - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 19 09:26:32 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:26:32 +0000 Subject: UK Science Museum Exhibition features PDP-1? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450FFE18.7040403@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: >> Does anyone know if this is a real working PDP-1 > > It is a non working machine on loan from the Computer History Museum. Interesting - how 'non working is it'? (i.e. where on the scale of plywood/painted mock-up to complete but faulty machine?) It'd be interesting if there was another viable PDP-1 around for restoration. I think the earliest we have is the straight-8, and are unlikely to get anything earlier. I don't have the Science Museum's asset list to hand, so I'm not sure what they've got... cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 19 09:11:53 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 10:11:53 -0400 Subject: ATT 3b1 mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 19, 2006, at 1:59 AM, Paxton Hoag wrote: >> Sorry. I meant the 3b1 (aka Unix PC) > > I think it was a logitech two button rectangular wedge shaped mouse > used by lots of vendors. They came in both serial and parallel, I > think the AT&T one was serial. It has been a long time. Both had a D 9 > pin connector. I think you're correct that it's a Logitech, but I'm not positive. What I am positive about, though, is that the 3B1 uses a 3-button mouse. If memory serves its connector resembles a modular one but with a slightly more elaborate locking mechanism. > I had several 3B1s go through my hands in the early 1990s. Very cool. I sold and serviced them in an after-school job in 9th grade. I spent every spare moment bouncing between the 3B1 (actually a 7300...nearly identical) and the DEC Pro350 we had in the store. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 19 09:28:45 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 07:28:45 -0700 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? In-Reply-To: <005e01c6dbaa$3738f240$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: >From: "Andy Holt" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: RE: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 06:12:34 +0100 > > > If you add the Z8, then the number of embedded designs using this chip > > architecture is huge indeed. > >The Z8 has nothing in common with the F8 > > > > > But my reference was to "Personal Computers" using the F8 as the CPU. >The > > "Channel F" and VideoBrain are the only ones that come to mind. Hi The VidioBrain use a 3870 version of the F8. Dwight > >and it's remarkable that there are even these two. From a programmers point >of view the F8 was a real abortion: the only processor that I've heard of >in >which a Jump corrumpts the contents of the accumulator. > >(When I wrote an emulator for it I asked the "customer"* whether they >prefered the emulator to provide the same (but undocumented!) corruption as >the real chip, or a different "undefined" value. They though the latter was >safer. >* The EE department at the University.) > >Andy > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 19 10:30:40 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:30:40 -0700 Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <0J5U00MGJ6XXZ2J2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5U00MGJ6XXZ2J2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: At 7:09 AM -0400 9/19/06, Allison wrote: > > >>Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) >> From: Julian Wolfe >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:07:49 -0500 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >>As of September 30, 2006, the last PDP-11 that rolled off the line >>will finally be 10 years old. >> >>The PDP-11 EOL was actually September 30,1996. > >Mentec continued it and you can still buy new 11 based boards. > >Allison Is Mentec still selling them? From the last time I looked at the website, it looked like they were only reselling emulators instead of real hardware now. Still up until recently they were selling new boards. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 19 10:31:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:31:10 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: References: <0J5T0059BGUUM661@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <001601c6dbb6$f797cf50$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200609190831100281.0011880E@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2006 at 12:09 AM David Griffith wrote: >I have a new-in-box Qumetrak 842 that proudly displays a label reading >"115V/60Hz" right below the spindle motor. I have one of those--and also an 842 that says "230v 50Hz". Physically, the motors do differ in appearance, but the main difference is the size of the pulley on the motor shaft. Most of my 8" drives use an AC spindle motor. Very reliable. Early 8" drives were all over the place as far as electronics was concerned. Some contain on-board data separator circuits, some require 3-phase stepper control signals, radial select, etc. The early Japanese drives were particularly odd. I think it's remarkable that just about every old Shugard SA-800/801 drive I've ever run across was still in fine operating shape. Very few old Calcomp drives that I've seen are--the positioner motor windings are usually shorted or open. Cheers, Chuck From Steve at oceanrobots.net Tue Sep 19 11:46:41 2006 From: Steve at oceanrobots.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:46:41 -0400 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45101EF1.5010408@oceanrobots.net> Solid State Sales, late of Cambridge, MA; aka Eli Heffron & Sons also shiped a few F8 micro kits in late 70s. Name was something like "Veritas", Verdas? dwight elvey wrote: > > > >> From: "Andy Holt" >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: RE: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 06:12:34 +0100 >> >> > If you add the Z8, then the number of embedded designs using this chip >> > architecture is huge indeed. >> >> The Z8 has nothing in common with the F8 >> >> > >> > But my reference was to "Personal Computers" using the F8 as the >> CPU. The >> > "Channel F" and VideoBrain are the only ones that come to mind. > > > Hi > The VidioBrain use a 3870 version of the F8. > Dwight > >> >> and it's remarkable that there are even these two. From a programmers >> point >> of view the F8 was a real abortion: the only processor that I've >> heard of in >> which a Jump corrumpts the contents of the accumulator. >> >> (When I wrote an emulator for it I asked the "customer"* whether they >> prefered the emulator to provide the same (but undocumented!) >> corruption as >> the real chip, or a different "undefined" value. They though the >> latter was >> safer. >> * The EE department at the University.) >> >> Andy >> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 19 11:39:09 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:39:09 -0400 Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) Message-ID: <0J5U006UDM6U5H65@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:30:40 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , > cctech at classiccmp.org > >At 7:09 AM -0400 9/19/06, Allison wrote: >> > >>>Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) >>> From: Julian Wolfe >>> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:07:49 -0500 >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> >>>As of September 30, 2006, the last PDP-11 that rolled off the line >>>will finally be 10 years old. >>> >>>The PDP-11 EOL was actually September 30,1996. >> >>Mentec continued it and you can still buy new 11 based boards. >> >>Allison > >Is Mentec still selling them? From the last time I looked at the >website, it looked like they were only reselling emulators instead of >real hardware now. > >Still up until recently they were selling new boards. > > Zane They may well have stopped cpu production but only recently.The only CPUs that have been around near as long in production are: PDP-8 (cmos 6100 and 6120) 1802 Z80 Allison From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Sep 19 13:03:24 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:03:24 +0200 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 : resolved. In-Reply-To: <450EE229.5040806@bluewin.ch> References: <450EE229.5040806@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <451030EC.2020007@bluewin.ch> I asked around and, as many posters suspected, the box was part of a larger system : A Sentry IC tester, made by Fairchild. That would explain the use of the F8. The row of DRAMs I thought to have seen was, at closer inspection, a set of bipolar PROMs. Total real ram on the board : 4 x 2114. So no CP/M for sure.... Still, I have never before seen a floppybox with printeroutput ! The CP/M disks (SSSD) are therefore most probably from another, unknown system. Jos Dreesen From mail at g-lenerz.de Tue Sep 19 13:32:20 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:32:20 +0200 Subject: Personal Iris IRIX issues and other related questions... In-Reply-To: <450E4BB7.40707@msu.edu> References: <450B5C9C.9010704@msu.edu> <20060917104000.464cfea6@SirToby.dinner41.de> <450E4BB7.40707@msu.edu> Message-ID: <1073666088.20060919203220@g-lenerz.de> Hello Josh, Monday, September 18, 2006, 9:33:11 AM, you wrote: > Thanks for the tips. This morning the machine actually booted to the > IRIX login screen but crashed to a black screen as soon as I tried to do > anything graphics-intensive, so it looks like your assessments are > correct, it's definitely a sporadic hardware failure. that sounds like a step forward from your last description. > I went through and cleaned out the machine before I powered it on the > first time (it was quite dirty); and I reseated everything that was > socketed. I'll try running diagnostics on it sometime this week and see > if it tells me anything. Probably the key is *not* reseating *everything*. Most of my 10-20 year old machines (esp. the SGIs) are plugged in the way they are (after taking care of transportation "bugs"). Sometimes I come to think that after 10 years the dirt is part of the "whole" and has grown to some kind of function. ;-) Seeing that it works in general you should probably try reseat-magic with the bare minimum of hardware and see if the thing can stay stable at PROM level and proceed from that point on. And remember... if it is really a 4D/35 cooling is a BIG issiue... do NOT run the system without a working "cardcage" fan for the CPU and without the whole cage installed into the larger chassis. Did I mention cooling is essential on these systems? -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 19 13:45:40 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:45:40 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5T0059BGUUM661@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5T0059BGUUM661@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609191445.40853.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 18 September 2006 09:46 pm, Allison wrote: > >It says put an 8" ON a PC, not IN it. > >If you use two side by side drives horizontally, > >then it is a lot more stable to put the PC on the 8" > > Of course starting with the half height 8" drives helps. They are only > about 2.5" tall. > > What is more interesting is what a PC with two 8" drives would > weigh in at! Most of the good 8" drives were a very solid hunk > of aluminum. > > I have a heath H207 dual drive. That's two half height doubled sided > drives one atop the other and a linear power supply. Weighs more > than full up NS* Horizon (wood case)! It's only 13.5x5.5x17 inches. I'm not sure what they are offhand, but the 8" drives that came along with my Imsai are about that tall. And in a serious industrial-type case that the Imsai is sitting on top of... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 19 14:15:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:15:07 -0700 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 : resolved. In-Reply-To: <451030EC.2020007@bluewin.ch> References: <450EE229.5040806@bluewin.ch> <451030EC.2020007@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200609191215070265.00DE8E1C@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2006 at 8:03 PM Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >The CP/M disks (SSSD) are therefore most probably from another, unknown >system. You might just dump one and run an ASCII filter over the output. Often, the system manufacturer's name will show up that way. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 19 14:25:31 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ah, the weirdities of PC formats In-Reply-To: <200609182140080806.0068186F@10.0.0.252> References: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609180922520133.0015292A@10.0.0.252> <20060918175245.Q20615@shell.lmi.net> <200609182140080806.0068186F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060919122020.F62556@shell.lmi.net> > >First official support for 3.5" in PC-DOS was V3.20. > >First official support for 3.5" in MS-DOS (OEM'd) was V2.11. > >A few machines added support for 3.5" on their own (HP, Gavilan, etc.) On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Any DOS (PC or MS) could support 720K with a DEVICE= driver after version > 2.0. I was thinking of support WITHOUT an additional device driver. (DRIVPARM was NOT a device driver, and didn't occupy extra RAM) > I still have the OEM customization guides for MS-DOS 1.25 and 2.00. The > preface to 2.00 states that eventually it would support the entire set of > Xenix functions. Uh-huh. any hope of a copy? > One could in PC-DOS 3.?0 use DRIVPARM in CONFIG.SYS but you had to suffix > the DRIVPARM with a string of control-A's. 3.20 > I think MS would love to kill off floppy support entirely. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Sep 19 14:41:28 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:41:28 -0500 Subject: SCSI CD burner Message-ID: For a while, I thought it was a requirement that the laser be turned off at least when the drive was open, so power-down circutry was required. Not sure if this requirement was relaxed. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Sep 19 14:43:26 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:43:26 -0500 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: Someone said (lost attribution) >The original IBM PC version was a an abortion. Perhaps "abomination" would be a less-charged word... certainly applicable in this case. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Sep 19 11:31:21 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:31:21 -0400 Subject: LGA CPU feature (may or may not be on-topic) (REPOST) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:47:26 PDT." <200609181647260915.01AC2B48@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609191631.k8JGVLIS016060@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: ... >a servers. Fortunately, I had the SMART monitoring enabled on Linux and it >diagnosed the "Drive is in imminent danger of failing" condition. Whole >tracks were going sour. Replaced it with a 9GB Quantum of approximately anyone on the list privy to failure analysis reports on modern IDE/SATA drives? i'm just curious what fails... does the read channel become noisy? if so, why? or do the heads fails? (again, why?) or does the positioning fail? (again, why?) i've just been curious what fails these days. seems like they should run a lot longer than they do. stiction and motor driver failures make senses but I never see then any more. now days they just seem to stop reading data correctly. -brad From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 19 15:06:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:06:48 -0700 Subject: Ah, the weirdities of PC formats In-Reply-To: <20060919122020.F62556@shell.lmi.net> References: <0J5S009JWEXEX281@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609180922520133.0015292A@10.0.0.252> <20060918175245.Q20615@shell.lmi.net> <200609182140080806.0068186F@10.0.0.252> <20060919122020.F62556@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609191306480328.010DDF09@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2006 at 12:25 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >I was thinking of support WITHOUT an additional device driver. >(DRIVPARM was NOT a device driver, and didn't occupy extra RAM) I suspect that the OS could easily be patched to accomodate 720K without a device driver as early as PC-DOS 1.0. >any hope of a copy? My paper file copy's a faded yellowed tractor-feed listing, but I'll dig around and see if I can find the file it was printed from. Anyone remember the procedure of getting stock PC-DOS to work with the Compupro 85/88 CPU board? Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 19 15:48:33 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Sep 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > Someone said (lost attribution) > > >The original IBM PC version was a an abortion. > > Perhaps "abomination" would be a less-charged word... > certainly applicable in this case. "Abomination" certainly sounds much better. Calling something an "abortion" to me sounds like a sloppy way of saying "half-baked", "half-cocked", "still-needs-work", "unclear on the concept", and so on. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 19 16:07:18 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:07:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Latest find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8344.88.211.153.27.1158700038.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Ok, A few pics are at www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pet Ed > On 10/9/06 20:34, "Ed Groenenberg" wrote: > >> >> I have scored a few nice items this day, a PET 2001-8k with >> lots of extra's like a lightpen, a sort of digitiser keypad, >> an large expansion board which contains a compuware floppy >> interface, a compuware dual floppy drive, about 3 dozen tapes, >> 4 boxes with floppies and a heavy Centronics printer. >> Also a little gadget which allows me to select 3 different >> character roms using a little switch. >> >> And the best of all is that the machine works and the keyboard >> just looks as new :) and that all for a bargain price of just >> 100 Euro's ($128). > > Nice! I think we all demand pictures :) > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 19 16:30:28 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:30:28 -0400 Subject: Unidentified ISA card Message-ID: <009001c6dc32$d4209b20$0b01a8c0@game> I recently got this card in and have no idea who made it. Anybody have an idea of what it is (I browsed through th99 with no luck, and google didn't help much either)? Pictures: http://home.neo.rr.com/unknownk/images/100_0897.jpg (the cable with in/out that goes on the end). http://home.neo.rr.com/unknownk/images/100_0896.jpg (The card itself) The main card is LV-007 and the TV tuner part is LV-008 Major chips are CHIPS F82C9001, Phillips Saa 7151B, Phillips 9065. I am pretty sure it is a video capture/TV tuner card but I need to find out who made it to find drivers. The cable on top would be to connect to a VGA card I would think, but it looks like it also has VGA cable to put inline with VGA output (redundant?). The little connector on the bezel side bottom looks like a mini headphone jack. The card came a little bent (they used a padded mailer and not a box for shipping) and EC4 is gone (but not found in the mailer, you can see what's left of the cap pins floating in air above and to the right of the 24.576 oscillator top middle of the card), wonder if that cap is even needed. Any ideas? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 19 16:51:51 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:51:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Stepdown convertor Message-ID: <200609192151.k8JLppB6065193@keith.ezwind.net> --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have been having problems with my Dreamcast > > (that I use to surf the 'net) resetting randomly . > > > > After checking out the power lines, it seems > > that the stepdown convertor is at fault. It > > has a crack and 2 bulging bits (where the > > plastic has been molded with lumps instead of > > flat) on the underside. > > > > How dangerous is this if it is the cause of > > the problem? > > Sounds like it's overheating. > > > It converts a 240V input to a 110V output (not > > been able to check the exact specs on it, as > > it's in use and very hot), as my Dreamcast I > > am using is a Japanese model (my UK model > > isn't fully functioning). > > I'm not well up on Dreamcasts. Do they have an > external power supply? > If they do, then you could use your UK PSU. > > Other than that, you might get an old switchable > 220/110v psu and make > it into an autotransformer. > > Gordon. > The one I am currently using is Japanese one and they (like the USA?) have 2 pin plugs into the mains, whereas our (UK) plugs have 3 pins so I can't use a UK power supply on a Japanese one. Like I stated in another post (I think?) I got a replacement off eBay which I received today, so all is well again. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Sep 19 16:39:46 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:39:46 -0700 Subject: Old IRIX wanted Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm curious if anyone has media for older IRIX releases. Specifically, I'm looking for IRIX 4.0.5E, 4.0.5F, 4.0.5IOP or 4.0.6IPR on CD. Anyone know if this is still floating around somewhere? It's for a restoration of an Indigo running period software (instead of IRIX 6.5.22 or 5.3, both of which I already have, but are more recent). -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 19 16:51:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:51:36 -0700 Subject: Unidentified ISA card In-Reply-To: <009001c6dc32$d4209b20$0b01a8c0@game> References: <009001c6dc32$d4209b20$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200609191451360893.016DD2DF@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2006 at 5:30 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >I recently got this card in and have no idea who made it. > >Anybody have an idea of what it is (I browsed through th99 with no luck, >and google didn't help much either)? I'm not quite sure, but this looks like a C&T PBTV card. It's a receiver card that hooks inline to your existing display and audio (hence the weird cable). One of the earliest TV cards. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Sep 19 16:53:40 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 22:53:40 +0100 Subject: Latest find In-Reply-To: <8344.88.211.153.27.1158700038.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: (PET 2001-8) On 19/9/06 22:07, "Ed Groenenberg" wrote: > www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pet That's in beautiful condition given that it's 27 or so years old. More importantly, does the tape drive still play or has it siezed up? Nice to see an EXPANDAPET in all its hi-res glory too :) I've only read about them in the past.... cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 19 18:02:51 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:02:51 -0500 Subject: OT: Stepdown convertor References: <200609192151.k8JLppB6065193@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <007101c6dc3f$bbd61e20$6700a8c0@BILLING> Can't you still look up the FCC-ID on a card online, to get the manufacturer at least and then hit the manufacturer and/or their website for info? Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 4:51 PM Subject: Re: OT: Stepdown convertor > > --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > I have been having problems with my Dreamcast >> > (that I use to surf the 'net) resetting randomly > . >> > >> > After checking out the power lines, it seems >> > that the stepdown convertor is at fault. It >> > has a crack and 2 bulging bits (where the >> > plastic has been molded with lumps instead of >> > flat) on the underside. >> > >> > How dangerous is this if it is the cause of >> > the problem? >> >> Sounds like it's overheating. >> >> > It converts a 240V input to a 110V output (not >> > been able to check the exact specs on it, as >> > it's in use and very hot), as my Dreamcast I >> > am using is a Japanese model (my UK model >> > isn't fully functioning). >> >> I'm not well up on Dreamcasts. Do they have an >> external power supply? >> If they do, then you could use your UK PSU. >> >> Other than that, you might get an old switchable >> 220/110v psu and make >> it into an autotransformer. >> >> Gordon. >> > > The one I am currently using is Japanese one > and they (like the USA?) have 2 pin plugs into > the mains, whereas our (UK) plugs have 3 pins > so I can't use a UK power supply on a Japanese > one. > > Like I stated in another post (I think?) I got > a replacement off eBay which I received today, > so all is well again. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 19 18:07:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 00:07:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK Science Museum Exhibition features PDP-1? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060919083636.04ab88b0@mail> from "John Foust" at Sep 19, 6 08:49:55 am Message-ID: > From my perspective, "Game On" was great for my kids: They hear me talking > about old computers but haven't ever been face-to-face with a PDP > or a vector display or have much understanding that computers were > indeed only monochrome for quite a while. You mean you've not let them loose on your own collection? Why not? > > And perhaps you don't have recent exposure to prices at tourist spots. Thankfully not. But what I do have is a good idea of what I expect to get for a given amount of money, and that exhibition doesn't seem to provide it (at least not compared to other museums, albeit not in London, that I have visited recently). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 19 17:45:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:45:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <20060918161437.D16949@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 18, 6 04:17:25 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > Rememebr the data rate of 8" SD is the same as that of 5.25" DD. I have > > an idea the data separate _will_ lock to 8" SD (which is still 250kbps), > > and you can then program the FDC chip to do single density operations. I > > have never tried this, though. > > The IBM 5150 FDC board had NC to the FM (v MFM) pin on the 765, > To program it to do "single density" would require that a little bit of > that "programming" be done with solder. Does it, though? IIRC, that pin on the 765 is an output. So the 765 can be internally set to FM operation by sending it the right command bytes. Now, the data separator should be able to lock to an 8" SD data stream. It's the same bit rate as the 6.25" DD data it's supposed to be working with. And just about any pulse sequence that an occur in an FM stream can also occur in an MFM stream. So the data seprate should lock and give out the 250kHz data clock and the data pulses. The 765 should be able to treat those as FM, single density recording. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 19 17:50:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:50:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: RX02 drives / RT11 In-Reply-To: <450F4DA2.1050104@the-planet.org> from "Gary E Kaufman" at Sep 18, 6 09:53:38 pm Message-ID: > Is the RX02 incapable of formatting it's own media? Is there a common An RX02 can't format a blank disk. What the format command actually does is re-weite the sectors and headers. It can be used to turn a single-density formatted disk into an double-density one. What I do is format a disk as single desnity on my CP/M machine, then stick it in the RX02 and (re)format it as double desnity. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 19 17:53:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:53:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP disk drive CPUs (was Re: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ?) In-Reply-To: <200609190501.k8J51Yug054484@lots.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Sep 18, 6 10:01:34 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > FWIW, some HP HPIL peripheals used a related chip (3870). IIRC, the 82161 > > tape drive, 82162 printer, 82165 GPIO and 82166 converter all used said > > microcontroller. The 82164 RS232 and 82169 HPIB used 8049s, the 9114 disk > > used a 6809 (!). > > I don't think the 9114 using a 6809 is all that unusual; other > 91xx (and I think some of the 794x) devices did that too. Sure. At lest thr 9121, 9122, 9123, 9133H and 9153 used a 6809 procesor (those being the ones I have). My comment was that AFAIK the 9114 (both versions) was the only (common?) HPIL peripheral to use that chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 19 17:57:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:57:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <001601c6dbb6$f797cf50$2101a8c0@finans> from "Nico de Jong" at Sep 19, 6 08:43:41 am Message-ID: > I also have/had a horrible one, originating from a Philips mini (PTS6000) > which used 115VAC for one of the motors Most [1] 8" droves had mains-operated spindle motors, often 115V (although 230V versions did exist). Note that the spindle speed depends on the mains freqeuncy, so there's normally a pulley change to do if you go from 50Hz to 60Hz or vice versa [2] [1] But not all. Some models had 24V DC spindle motors, or could have them as an option [2] One reason I wouldn't conssider moving my collection to the States. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 19 18:00:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 00:00:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? In-Reply-To: <005e01c6dbaa$3738f240$655b2c0a@w2kdell> from "Andy Holt" at Sep 19, 6 06:12:34 am Message-ID: > The Z8 has nothing in common with the F8 Sure it does. They're both silicon chips, they're both microprocessors, they both normally come in 40 pi DIL packages. But that's about it :-) :-) :-) > and it's remarkable that there are even these two. From a programmers point > of view the F8 was a real abortion: the only processor that I've heard of in > which a Jump corrumpts the contents of the accumulator. It does _what_??? Thank %deity I've never had to design with that thing. -tony From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Tue Sep 19 19:24:27 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 12:24:27 +1200 Subject: Unidentified ISA card In-Reply-To: <009001c6dc32$d4209b20$0b01a8c0@game> References: <009001c6dc32$d4209b20$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20060920121858.03bab290@pop3.paradise.net.nz> At 09:30 20/09/2006, you wrote: >I recently got this card in and have no idea who made it. >... >The main card is LV-007 and the TV tuner part is LV-008 > >Major chips are CHIPS F82C9001, Phillips Saa 7151B, Phillips 9065. > >I am pretty sure it is a video capture/TV tuner card but I need to find >out who made it to find drivers. The cable on top would be to connect to a >VGA card I would think, but it looks like it also has VGA cable to put >inline with VGA output (redundant?). The little connector on the bezel >side bottom looks like a mini headphone jack. On http://dg3aaf.no-ip.com:8080/sites/bttv%20gallery.htm there is a Genius LiveView LV-005 so I'd say it's a Genius Card, but I haven't found anything else useful. Tony From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Sep 19 20:46:20 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:46:20 -0500 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: <44E7FCB5.3050705@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <002001c6dc56$921dea10$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Okay, I had a look at the instruction listing and to be honest, have no idea what I'm looking at. How do I figure out what test was running when it failed, and how do I decipher what that means? Is 330 the number on the very left of the page? If so, it says to scope the problem, replace halt with 240 (is this JMP?) and replace the next instruction with 703 (what's that? Where I'm jumping to?) Anyway, of course, any help would be much appreciated. Thanks! Julian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:10 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 11/34 failing trap test > > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Aug 19 2006, 9:38, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > > >> I got the 11/34 up and running, and I loaded XXDP. It > fails the trap > >> test. The instructions state you should examine the stack pointer > >> (777706) which shows it to be a value of 000470. This is > supposed to > >> tell you the address of the Program Counter, right? So I > load address > >> 470, and the value is 000330. What instruction is failing? Am I > >> reading this right? > > > > Yes, the stack pointer points to the last address used on > the stack, > > and that will be the value of the PC when it called the error > > subroutine, or to put it another way, the address of the next > > instruction to be executed had the JSR not been taken. It's > failing at > > whatever test was just before location 330 -- which is surprisingly > > low. You'd need to look at the listing to see what the test was. > > > The trap test typically does a halt-on-failure, so at what > address does your CPU halt? After knowing the halt address > (and the failed test) the SP and what is on the stack may or > may not be useful data. > > BTW the listing of this diagnostic is online at: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/listings/AC-8045D- > MC_CFKABD0-1134-Traps-Tst_Apr77.pdf > in case you already didn't know this. > > If indeed the CPU did halt at 330 this is in the vector space > which is typically populated with .+2/halt word pairs (a > 'trapcatcher' in DEC terms). > > Don North > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 19 20:54:49 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 21:54:49 -0400 Subject: Unidentified ISA card References: <009001c6dc32$d4209b20$0b01a8c0@game> <6.1.2.0.1.20060920121858.03bab290@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <00cf01c6dc57$c37666e0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Wills" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Unidentified ISA card > At 09:30 20/09/2006, you wrote: > >I recently got this card in and have no idea who made it. > > >... > >The main card is LV-007 and the TV tuner part is LV-008 > > > >Major chips are CHIPS F82C9001, Phillips Saa 7151B, Phillips 9065. > > > >I am pretty sure it is a video capture/TV tuner card but I need to find > >out who made it to find drivers. The cable on top would be to connect to a > >VGA card I would think, but it looks like it also has VGA cable to put > >inline with VGA output (redundant?). The little connector on the bezel > >side bottom looks like a mini headphone jack. > > On http://dg3aaf.no-ip.com:8080/sites/bttv%20gallery.htm there is a Genius > LiveView LV-005 so I'd say it's a Genius Card, but I haven't found anything > else useful. > > Tony I would think genius just private labeled the card, liveview sounds like the original manufacturer. There is a www.liveview.com.tw but I can't read Chinese, using www.archive.org I found out that www.liveview.com has been used for porn since the 90's (figure). I think the card is probably from the early 1990's From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 19 21:22:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:22:02 -0700 Subject: Unidentified ISA card In-Reply-To: <00cf01c6dc57$c37666e0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <009001c6dc32$d4209b20$0b01a8c0@game> <6.1.2.0.1.20060920121858.03bab290@pop3.paradise.net.nz> <00cf01c6dc57$c37666e0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200609191922020914.02656802@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2006 at 9:54 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >I would think genius just private labeled the card, liveview sounds like >the >original manufacturer. There is a www.liveview.com.tw but I can't read >Chinese, using www.archive.org I found out that www.liveview.com has been >used for porn since the 90's (figure). > >I think the card is probably from the early 1990's Date codes seem to indicate circa 1992. There's also another Taiwanese TV card maker; Animation Technologies (been around since 1990), who offers the LifeView TV cards. http://www.lifevew.com.tw, but I don't see anything that's as old as yours. You might drop them a support email and ask them if they recognize your card. There's a US affiliate in Fremont, CA, but their website mostly redirects to the main one in Taiwan: http://www.lifeview.com. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 19 14:14:58 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:14:58 +0100 Subject: bad keys on terminals In-Reply-To: References: <450CA5A6.6020608@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <451041B2.3030200@gjcp.net> David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 17 Sep 2006, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> A couple more suggestions. Chemtronics sell (sold?) a rubber keyboard >>> repair kit. It was a 2-pack thing that you mixed and then put a bit on >>> the conductive rubber pad. The problem was that it's expensive, and once >>> mixed you have to use the whole lot (enough for about 100 switches I >>> think). >> I found, while repairing mid-80s synthesizers, that roughening the >> rubber bit with sandpaper then painting on silver-loaded paint (from >> Halfords, the stuff they have for fixing heated rear windscreens) worked >> just great. > > I'm thinking that the finer side of an emery board would be the roughest > one would use, right? This seems even better than rubbing the pads with a > soft pencil -- less likely to wear off. Oh, just enough to scratch up the rubber to key it so the paint sticks. I used fine wet&dry, can't remember what grade though. Gordon. From philpem at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 19 16:57:10 2006 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 22:57:10 +0100 Subject: Unidentified ISA card In-Reply-To: <009001c6dc32$d4209b20$0b01a8c0@game> References: <009001c6dc32$d4209b20$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <451067B6.1060700@philpem.me.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > Major chips are CHIPS F82C9001, Phillips Saa 7151B, Phillips 9065. Looks like it could be one of the old Lifeview (http://www.lifeview.com.tw/) cards (see http://www.lifeview.com.tw/). It might be worth asking them. http://www.ampr.poznan.ws/users/sp3uqs/video/index.html shows an earlier (or later?) version of the card. Another possibility is the Creative Labs Video Blaster - see http://zigamorph.net/vb/ . In any case, I think you might have some real trouble finding drivers.... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny philpem at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 19 17:29:10 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:29:10 +0100 Subject: OT: Stepdown convertor In-Reply-To: <200609192151.k8JLppB6065193@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609192151.k8JLppB6065193@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45106F36.4000607@gjcp.net> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have been having problems with my Dreamcast >>> (that I use to surf the 'net) resetting randomly > . >>> After checking out the power lines, it seems >>> that the stepdown convertor is at fault. It >>> has a crack and 2 bulging bits (where the >>> plastic has been molded with lumps instead of >>> flat) on the underside. >>> >>> How dangerous is this if it is the cause of >>> the problem? >> Sounds like it's overheating. >> >>> It converts a 240V input to a 110V output (not >>> been able to check the exact specs on it, as >>> it's in use and very hot), as my Dreamcast I >>> am using is a Japanese model (my UK model >>> isn't fully functioning). >> I'm not well up on Dreamcasts. Do they have an >> external power supply? >> If they do, then you could use your UK PSU. >> >> Other than that, you might get an old switchable >> 220/110v psu and make >> it into an autotransformer. >> >> Gordon. >> > > The one I am currently using is Japanese one > and they (like the USA?) have 2 pin plugs into > the mains, whereas our (UK) plugs have 3 pins > so I can't use a UK power supply on a Japanese > one. What, on the low voltage side? Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 19 18:46:42 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:46:42 -0400 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? Message-ID: <0J5V006UN5ZB5UQ5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M for Fairchild F8 ? > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 00:00:24 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> The Z8 has nothing in common with the F8 > >Sure it does. They're both silicon chips, they're both microprocessors, >they both normally come in 40 pi DIL packages. But that's about it :-) >:-) :-) > >> and it's remarkable that there are even these two. From a programmers point >> of view the F8 was a real abortion: the only processor that I've heard of in >> which a Jump corrumpts the contents of the accumulator. > >It does _what_??? Thank %deity I've never had to design with that thing. If that were the only horror it would be ok. It's pretty poor but it was one of the first controller chip that was 8bit and low chip count. The 8048/9 was vastly better! Allison From alvindebord at mac.com Tue Sep 19 19:54:23 2006 From: alvindebord at mac.com (Alvin DeBord) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:54:23 -0400 Subject: Commodore 128s and SX-64 Message-ID: <87F87D4B-C54C-45F9-96FD-B90CC16FBDCB@mac.com> I have two complete Systems with Manuals, Printers, and quite a bit of software. Don't use them anymore and need to give them a new home. Mike in Ottawa, Ontario suggested I contact you. If you can help me sell these, I would highly appreciate it. I can be contacted at; alandmaedeb at yahoo,com Not sure how long I'll have access to the Mac Mail. Al DeBord, Chillicothe, OH, 45601, USA From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 20 00:36:51 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 22:36:51 -0700 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! Message-ID: Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial interface (it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is curious, here are a couple pictures. http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-1.jpg http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-2.jpg Of course I finally get it so I can get my Commodore 64 online only to find out that Quantum Link Reloaded is down at the moment :^( So far I've connected to a BBS in Toronto :^) Seems strange logging into a BBS for the first time in nearly 13 years. Zane PS the real question is who can identify what I built it into :^) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 20 01:03:43 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:03:43 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609200203.43200.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 19 September 2006 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > I also have/had a horrible one, originating from a Philips mini (PTS6000) > > which used 115VAC for one of the motors > > Most [1] 8" droves had mains-operated spindle motors, often 115V > (although 230V versions did exist). Note that the spindle speed depends Actually, I've got one that is set to run on 240V, 60Hz. It's out of a (broken and now disassembled) IBM 3274 terminal controller (for the microcode floppy, of course). > [2] One reason I wouldn't conssider moving my collection to the States. Oh come on, The Great Dr. Duell isn't afraid of replacing SMT chips on boards, but is afraid of having to change a few pulleys? Something sounds fishy here... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 19 22:46:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:46:22 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609192046220810.02B29CF4@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2006 at 11:45 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Now, the data separator should be able to lock to an 8" SD data stream. >It's the same bit rate as the 6.25" DD data it's supposed to be working >with. And just about any pulse sequence that an occur in an FM stream can >also occur in an MFM stream. I'm unable to test the original 5150 FDC with this--I put it in an XT and no interrupts. A little probing showed that U7, an MC3487 is bad on mine. Not an IC in my hellbox, so the antique goes back on the shelf with a sticker reminding me of the problem. I'm not inclined to hash up a substitute (say a 74LS368) for it. Someone else is going to have to try this. Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 20 10:06:44 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060920150644.EFE1158033@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial interface > (it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is curious, here > are a couple pictures. > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-1.jpg > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-2.jpg > > Of course I finally get it so I can get my Commodore 64 online only > to find out that Quantum Link Reloaded is down at the moment :^( > Somebody let the domain lapse, but they are working on fixing this problem. > So far I've connected to a BBS in Toronto :^) Seems strange logging > into a BBS for the first time in nearly 13 years. > > Zane > > PS the real question is who can identify what I built it into :^) > > A tape backup cartridge case of some type? Cheers, Bryan From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 20 10:13:46 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 19, 6 10:36:51 pm" Message-ID: <200609201513.k8KFDk9j011854@floodgap.com> > Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial interface > (it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is curious, here > are a couple pictures. Nice job. However, if you really want the bomb as far as RS-232 on the Commodore, consider a SwiftLink, Turbo232 or other 6551 ACIA-based cartridge (there are plans on the web for building your own clone, too). I'm working on a library that will let you use a Lantronix UDS-10 (or compatible unit) and a 6551 to do easy TCP transactions. I've got it doing Gopher protocol, and I'm going to add on some guts to make DNS queries easier. Once I get it working on the 6551-based cartridges, I will expand it to the user port, probably with George Hug's routines (but limited to 2400bps). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I would like to achieve [immortality] by not dying. -- Woody Allen --------- From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 20 10:23:01 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:23:01 -0500 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45115CD5.2040206@jbrain.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial interface > (it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is curious, here > are a couple pictures. > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-1.jpg > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-2.jpg Nice, you should head over to petscii.com and give Jeff Ledger the schamtic for this, so he can post it on his site. > > Of course I finally get it so I can get my Commodore 64 online only to > find out that Quantum Link Reloaded is down at the moment :^( I know, I'm trying to get it started back up. I should have it going today. Stand by. > > So far I've connected to a BBS in Toronto :^) Seems strange logging > into a BBS for the first time in nearly 13 years. > > Zane > > PS the real question is who can identify what I built it into :^) Looks like some sort of 3.5" disk case, but it's no doubt more esoteric than that. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 20 06:20:45 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 07:20:45 -0400 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:46:20 CDT." <002001c6dc56$921dea10$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200609201120.k8KBKjNS014563@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Julian Wolfe" wrote: > >If so, it says to scope the problem, replace halt with 240 (is this JMP?) >and replace the next instruction with 703 (what's that? Where I'm jumping >to?) 240 is a nop. I think the branch goes backward but I can't say where (-76?) [brad at mwave host]$ echo -e -n "\240\0\303\1" >x [brad at mwave host]$ od -o x 0000000 000240 000703 0000004 [brad at mwave host]$ /opt/tools/dec/pdp11/bin/pdp11-dec-bsd-objdump -D -b binary -m pdp11 x x: file format binary Disassembly of section .data: 00000000 <.data>: 0: 00a0 nop 2: 01c3 br 0xffffff8a -brad From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Sep 20 01:39:32 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:39:32 -0700 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: <002001c6dc56$921dea10$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <002001c6dc56$921dea10$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <4510E224.8030609@mindspring.com> Julian Wolfe wrote: > Okay, I had a look at the instruction listing and to be honest, have no idea > what I'm looking at. How do I figure out what test was running when it > failed, and how do I decipher what that means? Is 330 the number on the > very left of the page? > > If so, it says to scope the problem, replace halt with 240 (is this JMP?) > and replace the next instruction with 703 (what's that? Where I'm jumping > to?) > > Anyway, of course, any help would be much appreciated. > > Thanks! > Julian You need to run the trap test and when it halts (meaning a failure) then observe the halt address in the lights on the console display. Forget about the stack pointer and all that stuff until you know where in the diagnostic the failure is located. THEN if it is relevant you can examine the registers and/or memory to get more info. But you need to know what to look for first, and the starting point is the halt address in the console lights. Don From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 10:25:04 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:25:04 +0100 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11c909eb0609200825l122c3f95o4fb8dca634be3440@mail.gmail.com> On 20/09/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > PS the real question is who can identify what I built it into :^) TK50 box? Good for dice too :) -- > Pete Edwards > "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - > Niels Bohr From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 20 10:25:46 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:25:46 -0400 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609201125.46629.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 20 September 2006 01:36 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > So far I've connected to a BBS in Toronto :^) Seems strange logging > into a BBS for the first time in nearly 13 years. Sure would be, even though I had one up and running until last Ocober. :-) > PS the real question is who can identify what I built it into :^) Looks to me like one of those plastic boxes that tapes come in? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 20 10:26:56 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RR-Net + WarpCopy = :) Message-ID: <20060920152656.22F9A58170@mail.wordstock.com> With Zane H. getting productive with his C64, I thought I would throw in what I finally got working on my C64 setup... Last night I was *finally* able to update one of the banks in my Retro-Reply with "The Final Replay" rom. This gives you the command "CODENET" which allows you to send and execute code on the C64 from another computer over TCP/IP. I sent the WarpCopy server and now I am able to archive disk to my PC or send D64 files to be wrote to a floppy. It takes only 22 seconds to send the whole contents of a disk to my PC! Now I just need to find three more drives... WarpCopy can be found here: http://www.oxyron.de/html/wc64.html . (The Final Replay rom is also available there.) Cheers, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 20 10:32:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:32:13 -0700 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609200832130759.0538D44F@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2006 at 10:36 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial interface >(it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is curious, here >are a couple pictures. Looks nice, Zane! How fast can the C64 receive using this rig? Can you accommodate a 56K modem running full-tilt? >PS the real question is who can identify what I built it into :^) Looks like a case for a DLT cartridge. Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 20 10:46:26 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:46:26 -0500 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <20060920150644.EFE1158033@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060920150644.EFE1158033@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <45116252.5050408@jbrain.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > Somebody let the domain lapse, but they are working on fixing this > problem. > That is true, but even the server is down at present. I'm trying to get into the box to start it back up again. The domain is owned by someone else, so I can't control that. In truth, though, Life happened. Jeff owns the domain, and he's been moving, so I'm sure the notice to his email went unread. -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 20 10:44:12 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:44:12 -0400 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 20, 2006, at 1:36 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial interface > (it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is curious, here > are a couple pictures. > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-1.jpg > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-2.jpg Nice! > So far I've connected to a BBS in Toronto :^) Seems strange logging > into a BBS for the first time in nearly 13 years. How spooky. :) I miss the BBS days in a lot of ways. > PS the real question is who can identify what I built it into :^) Looks to me like a TK50/TK70/DLT case. You geek, you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 20 02:57:17 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:57:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Latest find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21309.217.166.68.210.1158739037.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well, it is indeed a very clean machine. The previous owner was very keen on telling that he was very carefull with it and stored it in a box to keep it clean. Both tapedrives are working fine, I put a casette tape in it which came with the machine, and the game just loaded without problem (did not have to clean the head). I'm not sure of the expandapet board works, as I do not see a larger RAM memory when plugged in. The SYS command to start de Compu-Think software freezes the system. Maybe one of the 2 EPROMS have lost their data over time.... Another item I found in the box of goodies is a digitizer, a little black plate with a couple of copper sections you can tap with the connected stylus. The touch area is about 3" by 3" in size. Ed > (PET 2001-8) > > > On 19/9/06 22:07, "Ed Groenenberg" wrote: > >> www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pet > > That's in beautiful condition given that it's 27 or so years old. More > importantly, does the tape drive still play or has it siezed up? Nice to > see > an EXPANDAPET in all its hi-res glory too :) I've only read about them in > the past.... > > cheers > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From jplist at kiwigeek.com Wed Sep 20 11:04:36 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:04:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <200609200832130759.0538D44F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/19/2006 at 10:36 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial interface > >(it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is curious, here > >are a couple pictures. > > Looks nice, Zane! How fast can the C64 receive using this rig? Can you > accommodate a 56K modem running full-tilt? The USER port on the C64 (which Zane's MAX232 hookup is using) is only really useful up to about 2400bps in this application. (The RS232 timing is done via NMI (since of course there's no UART), so the kernel gets kinda flattened by this. There are third party softwares which allow up to 9600bps, but it's apparently unsupported by most people and kinda hinky). JP From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 20 11:18:02 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:18:02 -0700 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <45115CD5.2040206@jbrain.com> References: <45115CD5.2040206@jbrain.com> Message-ID: At 10:23 AM -0500 9/20/06, Jim Brain wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial >>interface (it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is >>curious, here are a couple pictures. >> >>http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-1.jpg >>http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-2.jpg >Nice, you should head over to petscii.com and give Jeff Ledger the >schamtic for this, so he can post it on his site. It's just the MAX233 design on that site with a reset button added, so I rather doubt it rates a schematic of its own :^) I also built the 7404 interface also shown on the site, to refresh my skills before building this one, but I think that my C64 is a bit to far from the PC for it to work. >>Of course I finally get it so I can get my Commodore 64 online only >>to find out that Quantum Link Reloaded is down at the moment :^( >I know, I'm trying to get it started back up. I should have it >going today. Stand by. Cool! I've been wanting to try it since I heard about it. >>PS the real question is who can identify what I built it into :^) >Looks like some sort of 3.5" disk case, but it's no doubt more >esoteric than that. It is a SDLT II Tape case (no real difference to a TK50 or DLT case), the tapes hold 600GB per tape. We have the empty boxes coming out our ears at work, though most do get reused, and they seem to work really well as a small project box. Simply used "zip-strip" cable ties to fasten the circuit board to the case with 4 holes in the bottom of the box. While I don't like how the User Port connector hangs out, I'm rather pleased with the rest of the construction. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From maxwell at acsu.buffalo.edu Wed Sep 20 11:20:30 2006 From: maxwell at acsu.buffalo.edu (John Maxwell) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 12:20:30 -0400 Subject: DEC Manuals Available In-Reply-To: <200609200627.k8K6RVY8077874@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609200627.k8K6RVY8077874@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45116A4E.7030803@acsu.buffalo.edu> Hi All, I have a number of boxes with DEC-related material available. These are systems I no longer have or have no real possibility of obtaining. These are available near Buffalo, NY for pick-up. I will entertain shipping these, but the boxes are heavy and would require arrangements to reimburse me for shipping costs. I will be regretfully forced to recycle these documents if I receive no response by 8 October, 2006. I don't want these to be disposed of but I need the space that they currently occupy. If interested, please contact me via e-mail or telephone as I don't get to read newsgroups as often as I'd like. Here's what I have at present: R80 User's Guide (EK-00R80-UG-001) R80 Service Manual (EK-00R80-SM-001) R80 Technical Description (EK-00R80-TD-001) RL02 Field Maintenence (RL02-TK) Field Maintenence (CFG PKG #76) {I believe for the VAX11-730} Field Maintenence (11730-Z) VAX-11/750 Print Set VAX VMS Manual Set v4.0 {I believe to be complete} RSX-11M v4.1 {I believe to be complete} RSX-11M+ v3.0 {I believe to be complete} RT-11 v4.0 manual set {I believe to be complete} Misc VMS v5.5 manuals Misc PDP-11/24 prints Misc PDP-11/44 prints Thank you, -John P.S. I need power supply repair tips for my PDP-11/84 or if you happen to have a spare supply. :-) I suspect dried-out caps, but still would like to know if anybody else has any ideas to try. A power supply print set would be welcome, too. Any help would be appreciated! -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | John Maxwell | Disclaimer - | | Equipment Repair Tech | "I know you believe you understand | | SUNY at Buffalo | what you think I typed but, | | B10 Lockwood Hall | I am not sure you realize that what | | Buffalo, NY 14260 | you have read is not what I meant." | |--------------------------------------------------------------------| | V-Mail: (716) 645-3900 x116 | | E-Mail: maxwell at acsu.buffalo.edu | | W-Site: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~maxwell | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 20 11:35:57 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:35:57 -0700 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <200609201513.k8KFDk9j011854@floodgap.com> References: <200609201513.k8KFDk9j011854@floodgap.com> Message-ID: >Nice job. However, if you really want the bomb as far as RS-232 on the >Commodore, consider a SwiftLink, Turbo232 or other 6551 ACIA-based >cartridge (there are plans on the web for building your own clone, too). I seriously considered buying the Turbo232, and realistically if you count my time, it would have been cheaper. However, I wanted to build my own (my VIC-20 was expanded with home-built stuff), and also figured I'd be up and running faster. >I'm working on a library that will let you use a Lantronix UDS-10 (or >compatible unit) and a 6551 to do easy TCP transactions. I've got it >doing Gopher protocol, and I'm going to add on some guts to make DNS >queries easier. Once I get it working on the 6551-based cartridges, I will >expand it to the user port, probably with George Hug's routines (but >limited to 2400bps). The UDS-10 looks like an interesting device to add in. I don't like my current setup as I have to boot up my Pentium 4, which I basically never use. I want to see about getting TCPSER running on a Unix box that's always up, as that would be a much better solution for me. I've been thinking of picking up the Retro Replay cartridge with the Ethernet adapter. I'd love to be able to use that with Contiki, but I don't think I can justify the expense right now. BTW, I first accessed the Internet at 2400 baud, so that's not a huge problem for me :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 20 11:42:46 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:42:46 -0500 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: <45115CD5.2040206@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <45116F86.1050303@jbrain.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > It's just the MAX233 design on that site with a reset button added, so > I rather doubt it rates a schematic of its own :^) I also built the > 7404 interface also shown on the site, to refresh my skills before > building this one, but I think that my C64 is a bit to far from the PC > for it to work. Oh, no problems. > > Cool! I've been wanting to try it since I heard about it. I'm awaiting a password reset on the box so I can log in and restart the server. It may be available via IP for a but until the DNS issue gets resolved. > It is a SDLT II Tape case (no real difference to a TK50 or DLT case), > the tapes hold 600GB per tape. We have the empty boxes coming out our > ears at work, though most do get reused, and they seem to work really > well as a small project box. Simply used "zip-strip" cable ties to > fasten the circuit board to the case with 4 holes in the bottom of the > box. While I don't like how the User Port connector hangs out, I'm > rather pleased with the rest of the construction. Well, the one I built is at www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/ez232/ , but it has no case. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 20 11:44:24 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:44:24 -0700 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0609200825l122c3f95o4fb8dca634be3440@mail.gmail.com> References: <11c909eb0609200825l122c3f95o4fb8dca634be3440@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:25 PM +0100 9/20/06, Pete Edwards wrote: >TK50 box? Good for dice too :) SDLT II, but they're basically the same. I think the newer cases are slightly softer plastic and thinner. I'd not thought about using them for that! Now that I think about it, it's just about perfect. When I'm playing WH40k, I need more dice. But for just about any Role Playing game they would be perfect. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From deebee at mts.net Wed Sep 20 02:35:20 2006 From: deebee at mts.net (Don Besler) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:35:20 -0500 Subject: SAIC V2-LC computers, need hard drives Message-ID: <000501c6dc87$540cd2a0$3512fea9@your4dacd0ea75> Patrick I saw your site on the web re; Saic V2-LC portable computers. I have one (without a hard drive) and the PIN # is: 56357. Can you tell me what CPU processor this would be? Thanks Don deebee at mts.net From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Sep 20 03:00:18 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 01:00:18 -0700 Subject: Personal Iris IRIX issues and other related questions... In-Reply-To: <1073666088.20060919203220@g-lenerz.de> References: <450B5C9C.9010704@msu.edu> <20060917104000.464cfea6@SirToby.dinner41.de> <450E4BB7.40707@msu.edu> <1073666088.20060919203220@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <4510F512.1060801@msu.edu> Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Hello Josh, > > Monday, September 18, 2006, 9:33:11 AM, you wrote: > > >> Thanks for the tips. This morning the machine actually booted to the >> IRIX login screen but crashed to a black screen as soon as I tried to do >> anything graphics-intensive, so it looks like your assessments are >> correct, it's definitely a sporadic hardware failure. >> > > that sounds like a step forward from your last description. > > >> I went through and cleaned out the machine before I powered it on the >> first time (it was quite dirty); and I reseated everything that was >> socketed. I'll try running diagnostics on it sometime this week and see >> if it tells me anything. >> > > Probably the key is *not* reseating *everything*. Most of my 10-20 > year old machines (esp. the SGIs) are plugged in the way they are > (after taking care of transportation "bugs"). Sometimes I come to > think that after 10 years the dirt is part of the "whole" and has > grown to some kind of function. ;-) > > Seeing that it works in general you should probably try reseat-magic > with the bare minimum of hardware and see if the thing can stay stable > at PROM level and proceed from that point on. And remember... if it is > really a 4D/35 cooling is a BIG issiue... do NOT run the system > without a working "cardcage" fan for the CPU and without the whole > cage installed into the larger chassis. Did I mention cooling is > essential on these systems? > So... is proper cooling important on these systems, or what? Per yours (and others') suggestions, I've run the system without the Turbo expansion and it runs without issue; with the Turbo installed it crashes as soon as something graphic-intensive happens. The PROM monitor and single user works fine. So, I think I've found the culprit. Thanks, Josh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 20 09:08:54 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:08:54 -0400 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 : resolved. Message-ID: <0J5W00KC19W3IIY8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 : resolved. > From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:03:24 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >I asked around and, as many posters suspected, the box was part of a >larger system : A Sentry IC tester, made by Fairchild. That would >explain the use of the F8. > >The row of DRAMs I thought to have seen was, at closer inspection, a set >of bipolar PROMs. Total real ram on the board : 4 x 2114. So no CP/M for >sure.... > >Still, I have never before seen a floppybox with printeroutput ! > >The CP/M disks (SSSD) are therefore most probably from another, unknown >system. > I'd bet they are from an old Intel MDS800 development system [big blue box]. They ran ISIS but CP/M was ported to them as the first system and standard distrubution CP/M for years after had the MDS800 bios in the text (CP/M alteration guide). Allison From bqt at softjar.se Wed Sep 20 02:13:18 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:13:18 +0200 Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <200609200631.k8K6RVYM077874@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609200631.k8K6RVYM077874@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4510EA0E.8060201@softjar.se> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) >> From: "Zane H. Healy" >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:30:40 -0700 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , >>cctech at classiccmp.org >> >>At 7:09 AM -0400 9/19/06, Allison wrote: >> >>> > >>> >>>>Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) >>>> From: Julian Wolfe >>>> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:07:49 -0500 >>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>> >>>> >>>>As of September 30, 2006, the last PDP-11 that rolled off the line >>>>will finally be 10 years old. >>>> >>>>The PDP-11 EOL was actually September 30,1996. >>> >>>Mentec continued it and you can still buy new 11 based boards. >>> >>>Allison >> >>Is Mentec still selling them? From the last time I looked at the >>website, it looked like they were only reselling emulators instead of >>real hardware now. >> >>Still up until recently they were selling new boards. >> >> Zane > > > They may well have stopped cpu production but only recently.The only CPUs > that have been around near as long in production are: > > PDP-8 (cmos 6100 and 6120) > 1802 > Z80 Well, you can maybe still buy Quckware PDP-11 boards, so there are still new PDP-11 systems shipped. http://www.quickware.com/ Also, I'm not sure what I would call Strobe Data's Osprey systems... (http://www.strobedata.com/) But yeah, I think Mentec have stopped selling hardware. None of the CPUs mentioned above comes near the PDP-11 in longevity, even though they are long runners. The best candidate is maybe the Z80, since it's still in production and going strong. Not sure if the 1802 still is around, both the 1802 and Z80 came years after the PDP-11. The PDP-8 systems stopped manufacturing quite a while ago, and while they started before the PDP-11, I think the PDP-11 have passed them now. Johnny From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 20 11:47:10 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:47:10 -0700 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <200609200832130759.0538D44F@10.0.0.252> References: <200609200832130759.0538D44F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: >On 9/19/2006 at 10:36 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial interface >>(it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is curious, here >>are a couple pictures. > >Looks nice, Zane! How fast can the C64 receive using this rig? Can you >accommodate a 56K modem running full-tilt? I've so far run at 1200 baud, I think it's good for somewhere between 2400 and 9600 baud, from what I've read, but am not sure. I gather some tricks are needed to get much faster than 2400 out of a C64 User port. Others here would know a lot more than me about this. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 20 11:49:39 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 20, 6 09:35:57 am" Message-ID: <200609201649.k8KGndMw018658@floodgap.com> > >I'm working on a library that will let you use a Lantronix UDS-10 (or > >compatible unit) and a 6551 to do easy TCP transactions. I've got it > >doing Gopher protocol, and I'm going to add on some guts to make DNS > >queries easier. Once I get it working on the 6551-based cartridges, I will > >expand it to the user port, probably with George Hug's routines (but > >limited to 2400bps). > > The UDS-10 looks like an interesting device to add in. I don't like > my current setup as I have to boot up my Pentium 4, which I basically > never use. I want to see about getting TCPSER running on a Unix box > that's always up, as that would be a much better solution for me. I'm hoping the library will work with Lantronix-like things like tcpser. It does depend on DCD being up when a connection is active, however, and only Jim can say if it does that. (Jim?) > I've been thinking of picking up the Retro Replay cartridge with the > Ethernet adapter. I'd love to be able to use that with Contiki, but > I don't think I can justify the expense right now. > > BTW, I first accessed the Internet at 2400 baud, so that's not a huge > problem for me :^) So did I :) of course, it was just dialing into a terminal server. For a long time my 128 was my only method of Net access, using Kermit and a ZOOM external modem. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All things are possible, except skiing through a revolving door. ----------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 20 11:51:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:51:04 -0700 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609200951040311.05810307@10.0.0.252> On 9/20/2006 at 11:04 AM JP Hindin wrote: >(The RS232 timing is done via NMI (since of course there's no UART), so >the kernel gets kinda flattened by this. There are third party softwares >which allow up to 9600bps, but it's apparently unsupported by most people >and kinda hinky). I hadn't realized that the C64 lacks any sort of UART (that's a head-scratcher!). Maybe we've discovered Zane's next project.... :) --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 20 12:05:24 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 20, 6 09:47:10 am" Message-ID: <200609201705.k8KH5PfH015756@floodgap.com> > I've so far run at 1200 baud, I think it's good for somewhere between > 2400 and 9600 baud, from what I've read, but am not sure. I gather > some tricks are needed to get much faster than 2400 out of a C64 User > port. Others here would know a lot more than me about this. There are some bitbanger routines that entirely bypass NMIs and busy-drive the user port. Obviously they completely occupy the CPU and are no good for interactive applications, but they work well for file-transfers. Over5 (google for it) is one of these. 128s in 2MHz mode can drive the user port at 9600 using custom software. DesTerm and NovaTerm both have this capability. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: E.T.E.S.: The Extra Terrestrial E-Mail Signature --------------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 20 12:19:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:19:46 -0700 Subject: CP/M for Fairchild F8 : resolved. In-Reply-To: <0J5W00KC19W3IIY8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J5W00KC19W3IIY8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609201019460167.059B4907@10.0.0.252> On 9/20/2006 at 10:08 AM Allison wrote: >I'd bet they are from an old Intel MDS800 development system [big blue >box]. >They ran ISIS but CP/M was ported to them as the first system and standard >distrubution CP/M for years after had the MDS800 bios in the text >(CP/M alteration guide). Actually, those 8" disks could be from any number of several CP/M systems. A dump of a system disk will sort that one out. DRI even distributed MP/M (in its OEM package) as hosted on an MDS-800. Sort of minimal (MP/M was intended for systems with more than one terminal and bankswitching memory), but made possible by the 8253 timer periodic interrupt. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 20 12:34:58 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:34:58 -0700 Subject: Jcmparts clearing out stuff Message-ID: For people who have dealt with Joe before, they've uploaded a metric buttload of stuff to their eBay store jcmparts. He claims they're going to scrap whatever doesn't move in the next two months. At his listed prices, it will probably be most of it. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 20 13:32:31 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:32:31 -0700 Subject: RR-Net + WarpCopy = :) In-Reply-To: <20060920152656.22F9A58170@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060920152656.22F9A58170@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: At 11:26 AM -0400 9/20/06, Bryan Pope wrote: >With Zane H. getting productive with his C64, I thought I would >throw in what I finally got working on my C64 setup... > >Last night I was *finally* able to update one of the banks in my >Retro-Reply with "The Final Replay" rom. This gives you the command >"CODENET" which allows you to send and execute code on the C64 from >another computer over TCP/IP. I sent the WarpCopy server and now I >am able to archive disk to my PC or send D64 files to be wrote to >a floppy. It takes only 22 seconds to send the whole contents of >a disk to my PC! Now I just need to find three more drives... > >WarpCopy can be found here: http://www.oxyron.de/html/wc64.html . >(The Final Replay rom is also available there.) Nice! How well does it handle writing D64 images back to a floppy? I about went deaf last night while writing an image to my 1541. My old Twinhead 386sx/16 laptop that I use to run Star Commander has a battery that's basically dead, and I need to open it up and kill the speaker that was howling. I really want the Retro-Replay cart and RR-Net, but haven't been able to justify the cost :^( How "interesting" is it to get the Retro-Replay working? I gather from looking at the doc's that it doesn't include anything in the EPROM's, and that you have to get the ROM images loaded yourself? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 20 14:04:09 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 14:04:09 -0500 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <200609201649.k8KGndMw018658@floodgap.com> References: <200609201649.k8KGndMw018658@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <451190A9.5050200@jbrain.com> > I'm hoping the library will work with Lantronix-like things like tcpser. > It does depend on DCD being up when a connection is active, however, and > only Jim can say if it does that. (Jim?) > It does, if you use the "brain" cable mods (take null modem cable and cut off DSR pin to 64). tcpser and tcpser4j flip DTR to effect DCD on the receiving end, but null modem cables normally hook DSR and DCD together. Cutting the pin lets DSR float high (which is fine) and DCD then tracks the connection state. For a user port system, the cut is not needed, as user port code typically ignores DSR, but the 6551 carts absolutely will not work if DSR is tied low. > So did I :) of course, it was just dialing into a terminal server. For a > long time my 128 was my only method of Net access, using Kermit and a ZOOM > external modem. > My first telecommunications was over rural lines using a brand new CBM 1600 non-dialing direct connect modem. 300 bps was not possible, so I conversed with friends at 150 bps. Later, I upgraded to a 1650 clone call the MasterModem that got me on at 300 bps. After lightning took the modem out, I got the ill-conceived 1660 300 bps modem, and when lightning took it (good riddance) I got a Zoom 2400 that I used at 2400 with Novaterm. Given the readership, I'll note I took the system to college, where I used it for term papers and general work until 1992, including doing my Physics online homework on the University of Illinois PLATO system from my dorm room using some PLATO emulator for the 64. It sure beat fighting for a plasma PLATO workstations at the locations on campus. Getting my first taste of UNIX via the 64 and Novaterm at 2400 bps was fun too. I think all the student accounts were on a Sequent 68K CPU based box, as I recall, but I could be terribly wrong. In any event, I still use tricks I learned them (screen, anyone) to this day. jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 20 14:06:52 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 14:06:52 -0500 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <200609201705.k8KH5PfH015756@floodgap.com> References: <200609201705.k8KH5PfH015756@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4511914C.7010704@jbrain.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I've so far run at 1200 baud, I think it's good for somewhere between >> 2400 and 9600 baud, from what I've read, but am not sure. I gather >> some tricks are needed to get much faster than 2400 out of a C64 User >> port. Others here would know a lot more than me about this. >> > > There are some bitbanger routines that entirely bypass NMIs and busy-drive > the user port. Obviously they completely occupy the CPU and are no good > for interactive applications, but they work well for file-transfers. Over5 > (google for it) is one of these. > > 128s in 2MHz mode can drive the user port at 9600 using custom software. > DesTerm and NovaTerm both have this capability. > You can get 9600 in 64 mode if you tweak the user port interface to feed the incoming bit stream into the CIA shift register. The mod is called the Daniel Dallmann mod (after the creator) or UP232 (after the novaterm terminology), and ez232 contains jumpers to reconfigure for normal or UP232 mode Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 20 14:46:32 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 14:46:32 -0500 Subject: Jcmparts clearing out stuff References: Message-ID: <008601c6dced$79bc20d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Al wrote.... >At his listed prices, it will probably be most of it. {jay adds - which >means scrapped} I've never understood this... someone lists a board at a price FAR above scrap value, then says it will be scrapped if no one buys it. That doesn't make sense. I know they gotta make a profit but asking $50 for a board with $0.50 of gold in it seems odd. I mean, I'd pay $25, way way above scrap value - but won't get the chance apparently. Jay From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Sep 20 14:53:07 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 14:53:07 -0500 Subject: DEC Manuals Available In-Reply-To: <45116A4E.7030803@acsu.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: <000c01c6dcee$64ee64f0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Is the RSX 11m 3.0 manual set gone yet? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Maxwell > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 11:21 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC Manuals Available > > Hi All, > I have a number of boxes with DEC-related material > available. These are systems I no longer have or have no real > possibility of obtaining. > These are available near Buffalo, NY for pick-up. I will > entertain shipping these, but the boxes are heavy and would > require arrangements to reimburse me for shipping costs. > > I will be regretfully forced to recycle these documents > if I receive no response by 8 October, 2006. I don't want > these to be disposed of but I need the space that they > currently occupy. > > If interested, please contact me via e-mail or telephone > as I don't get to read newsgroups as often as I'd like. > > Here's what I have at present: > > R80 User's Guide (EK-00R80-UG-001) > R80 Service Manual (EK-00R80-SM-001) > R80 Technical Description (EK-00R80-TD-001) > > RL02 Field Maintenence (RL02-TK) > > Field Maintenence (CFG PKG #76) {I believe for the > VAX11-730} Field Maintenence (11730-Z) > > VAX-11/750 Print Set > > VAX VMS Manual Set v4.0 {I believe to be complete} > > RSX-11M v4.1 {I believe to be complete} > > RSX-11M+ v3.0 {I believe to be complete} > > RT-11 v4.0 manual set {I believe to be complete} > > Misc VMS v5.5 manuals > > Misc PDP-11/24 prints > Misc PDP-11/44 prints > > > Thank you, > -John > > P.S. I need power supply repair tips for my PDP-11/84 or if > you happen to have a spare supply. :-) I suspect dried-out > caps, but still would like to know if anybody else has any > ideas to try. > > A power supply print set would be welcome, too. > > Any help would be appreciated! > > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > | John Maxwell | Disclaimer - | > | Equipment Repair Tech | "I know you believe you understand | > | SUNY at Buffalo | what you think I typed but, | > | B10 Lockwood Hall | I am not sure you realize that what | > | Buffalo, NY 14260 | you have read is not what I meant." | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------| > | V-Mail: (716) 645-3900 x116 | > | E-Mail: maxwell at acsu.buffalo.edu | > | W-Site: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~maxwell | > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 20 15:08:38 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 13:08:38 -0700 Subject: Jcmparts clearing out stuff In-Reply-To: <008601c6dced$79bc20d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Hi I guess part of it is that they'd also spend extrat time to handle the one part. For scrap it is just throw it into a pile. Still, he is taking time to list them. Sounds like it isn't good business sense but then I'm not sure if most scrap dealers have good sense. I've seen several cases of scrapping a piece of equipment that was actually worth something as one piece but only worth pennies as scrap. Dwight >From: "Jay West" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Jcmparts clearing out stuff >Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 14:46:32 -0500 > >Al wrote.... >>At his listed prices, it will probably be most of it. {jay adds - which >>means scrapped} > >I've never understood this... someone lists a board at a price FAR above >scrap value, then says it will be scrapped if no one buys it. That doesn't >make sense. I know they gotta make a profit but asking $50 for a board with >$0.50 of gold in it seems odd. I mean, I'd pay $25, way way above scrap >value - but won't get the chance apparently. > >Jay > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 20 15:51:23 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:51:23 -0400 Subject: Jcmparts clearing out stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:34:58 PDT." Message-ID: <200609202051.k8KKpNkR014051@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > >For people who have dealt with Joe before, they've uploaded a metric >buttload of stuff to their eBay store jcmparts. He claims they're going to Didn't someone post a link to a digital/dec part number list? a lot of his stuff is listed by part #, which is not very helpful. I think I'd like to make a script to decode the M numbers and large dec part #'s... And I suspect Joe would entertain "offers". Since he's all of 5 miles from me I certainly plan to try. -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 20 15:57:52 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 15:57:52 -0500 Subject: Jcmparts clearing out stuff References: <200609202051.k8KKpNkR014051@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <00ea01c6dcf7$706778e0$6700a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... > And I suspect Joe would entertain "offers". Since he's all of 5 miles > from me I certainly plan to try. Oh, now I wouldn't want to violate any ebay rules or anything :> Jay From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 20 16:17:54 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 17:17:54 -0400 Subject: Jcmparts clearing out stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Sep 2006 15:57:52 CDT." <00ea01c6dcf7$706778e0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200609202117.k8KLHtuQ022133@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >It was written.... >> And I suspect Joe would entertain "offers". Since he's all of 5 miles >> from me I certainly plan to try. > >Oh, now I wouldn't want to violate any ebay rules or anything :> gack. i didn't even think about that. pretend I never said it. -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 20 16:48:12 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:48:12 -0500 Subject: Jcmparts clearing out stuff References: <200609202117.k8KLHtuQ022133@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <003c01c6dcfe$78a68260$6700a8c0@BILLING> I had written (jokingly) >>Oh, now I wouldn't want to violate any ebay rules or anything :> To which brad replied... > gack. i didn't even think about that. pretend I never said it. Of course, if the item doesn't sell on ebay, you could certainly make him an offer! That doesn't violate any rules at all. The trick is, catching the seller between the no-sale auction and the melting pot process! Jay From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Sep 20 17:05:48 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 15:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jcmparts clearing out stuff In-Reply-To: <003c01c6dcfe$78a68260$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20060920220548.75669.qmail@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > I had written (jokingly) > >>Oh, now I wouldn't want to violate any ebay rules > or anything :> The company has a non-eBay web presence and advertised direct contact information. I'm sure it is quite OK to contact them through these channels without any reference to eBay. I also wouldn't be surprised if you can find things on the website that haven't been listed there. http://www.ppsparts.com/ --Bill From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 20 17:11:37 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 15:11:37 -0700 Subject: Jcmparts clearing out stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:34 AM -0700 9/20/06, Al Kossow wrote: >For people who have dealt with Joe before, they've uploaded a metric >buttload of stuff to their eBay store jcmparts. He claims they're going to >scrap whatever doesn't move in the next two months. At his listed prices, it >will probably be most of it. Lot of interesting stuff. I'm glad I can't find some of that stuff around here for the prices he's asking :^) At the same time I can't believe someone is bidding $999.95 on an HP DesignJet 750C. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 20 17:16:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:16:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609200203.43200.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Sep 20, 6 02:03:43 am Message-ID: > > On Tuesday 19 September 2006 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I also have/had a horrible one, originating from a Philips mini (PTS6000) > > > which used 115VAC for one of the motors > > > > Most [1] 8" droves had mains-operated spindle motors, often 115V > > (although 230V versions did exist). Note that the spindle speed depends > > Actually, I've got one that is set to run on 240V, 60Hz. It's out of a Needless to say the voltage is not that critical. 220V, 230V, 240V are all the same :-) > (broken and now disassembled) IBM 3274 terminal controller (for the microcode > floppy, of course). > > > [2] One reason I wouldn't conssider moving my collection to the States. > > Oh come on, The Great Dr. Duell isn't afraid of replacing SMT chips on boards, > but is afraid of having to change a few pulleys? Something sounds fishy > here... Oh, I'd be happy to change the pulleys and reset the belt tensions. The problem is _getting_ the pulleys. Do you want to be the chap who phones Seagate and says 'Hello, I think you used to be Shugart, do you have the 60Hz conversion kits for the SA801, SA851 and SA4000 in stock' Yes I could make them. But there's the problem of getting the diameter right -- if any of my drives use a Vee belt it's not instantly obvious which diameter to measure!), 'crowning' them properly, tapping them for the setscrew, etc. All doable (and I have the tools to do it), but not a quick job. At least no whne you have a dozen or more drives of assorted models to convert. A motor-generator set might actually be easier! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 20 17:22:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:22:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 19, 6 10:36:51 pm Message-ID: > > Well, I finally finished the MAX233 based User Port Serial interface > (it was basically finished Sunday). In case anyone is curious, here > are a couple pictures. > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-1.jpg > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/MAX233-2.jpg Well done!. One comment, I would seriously recomend putting some kind of strain-relief on the wires at the edge connector. What I normally do is screw a couple of tapped spacers to the connector feed, then screw a bit of small angle brass (L cross section) to the other side of those, and then fit cable clips to that as appropriate. Otherwise you will go mad continually resoldering thr wires. Don't ask how I found that out :-) > PS the real question is who can identify what I built it into :^) My first guess was some kind of tape cartidge box (the translucent plastic and the way it opens gave it away). I see others have correctly said it was a TK50-like box. Well, I viewed the pictures in an local internet cafe, and the box looks rectuangular (as opposed to square). Either something is distorting the picture (does it look square to anyone else?) or you've hit the well known perspective problem that affects everyone who takes close-ups without a technical camera. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 20 18:13:25 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:13:25 -0700 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:22 PM +0100 9/20/06, Tony Duell wrote: >Well done!. One comment, I would seriously recomend putting some kind of >strain-relief on the wires at the edge connector. What I normally do is >screw a couple of tapped spacers to the connector feed, then screw a bit >of small angle brass (L cross section) to the other side of those, and >then fit cable clips to that as appropriate. Otherwise you will go mad >continually resoldering thr wires. Don't ask how I found that out :-) I need to do something with all that, as I mentioned in one message, this is the one part of the construction I don't like. Right now the only way to unplug it is to use a pair of needle-nose pliers. My problem is a decided lack of hardware on hand. You don't even want to know what I had to do to come up with the hardware to fasten the 25-pin connector to the case! >My first guess was some kind of tape cartidge box (the translucent >plastic and the way it opens gave it away). I see others have correctly >said it was a TK50-like box. Well, I viewed the pictures in an local >internet cafe, and the box looks rectuangular (as opposed to square). >Either something is distorting the picture (does it look square to anyone >else?) or you've hit the well known perspective problem that affects >everyone who takes close-ups without a technical camera. On my Mac and on my laptop (WinXP), they appear to be square. The pictures were taken with a Nikon D70 and 105mm Macro lens, though I did a pretty poor job on the depth of field. Maybe I should try with my "antique" Sony Mactiva , it's the 10x Optical zoom one that writes to a floppy. I bought it nearly 10 years ago, largely to be able to photograph computer equipment, and because it would work well with non-MS OS's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 20 19:10:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 01:10:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 20, 6 04:13:25 pm Message-ID: > > At 11:22 PM +0100 9/20/06, Tony Duell wrote: > >Well done!. One comment, I would seriously recomend putting some kind of > >strain-relief on the wires at the edge connector. What I normally do is > >screw a couple of tapped spacers to the connector feed, then screw a bit > >of small angle brass (L cross section) to the other side of those, and > >then fit cable clips to that as appropriate. Otherwise you will go mad > >continually resoldering thr wires. Don't ask how I found that out :-) > > I need to do something with all that, as I mentioned in one message, > this is the one part of the construction I don't like. Right now the > only way to unplug it is to use a pair of needle-nose pliers. > > My problem is a decided lack of hardware on hand. You don't even I stocked up on M2, M2.5, M3 and M4 nuts and bolts (of various lengths). That covers must homebrewing applications. If you prefer the UNC threads, they'll do too :-). I wouldn't even think of ordering less than 100 of each part, for the common stuff (like M3 nuts), I tend to buy 1000. I am perhaps lucky in that I have a reasonable mechanical workshop too. If I need a special spacer, I make it from brass rod. A lathe makes it easy to get it to the right length, to drill and tap the centre hole, etc. I know this is not an option for everyone, though. > want to know what I had to do to come up with the hardware to fasten > the 25-pin connector to the case! The worse one is the HPIB (IEEE488) connector. The jackposts for that are M3.5 thread. And nobody in the UK would sell me a couple. The end result was that I bought a set of M3.5 taps and made them from stainless steel rod. > > >My first guess was some kind of tape cartidge box (the translucent > >plastic and the way it opens gave it away). I see others have correctly > >said it was a TK50-like box. Well, I viewed the pictures in an local > >internet cafe, and the box looks rectuangular (as opposed to square). > >Either something is distorting the picture (does it look square to anyone > >else?) or you've hit the well known perspective problem that affects > >everyone who takes close-ups without a technical camera. > > On my Mac and on my laptop (WinXP), they appear to be square. The Oh, probaby a 'feature' of the LCD monitors in the internet cafe, then. On those it looked to have about the same aspect ratio as an audio compact cassette case. > pictures were taken with a Nikon D70 and 105mm Macro lens, though I > did a pretty poor job on the depth of field. Maybe I should try with That's one advantage of a technical camera. If you get the flim plane, the plane of the less (yes, that's an approximation for a real lens) and the plane of the subject all passing through one point [1] you get sharp focus throughout the image plane. I am not going to attempt to spell the name of the guy who named this principle, though. [1] That point may be at infinity, that is the 3 planes can be parallel, which is the case for most 'normal' cameras. > my "antique" Sony Mactiva , it's the 10x Optical zoom one that Oh my carmeras are such antiques that they don't even know what a floppy is :-). > writes to a floppy. I bought it nearly 10 years ago, largely to be > able to photograph computer equipment, and because it would work well Odd. That's why I bought an MPP Monorail... -tony From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 20 19:38:26 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RR-Net + WarpCopy = :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060921003826.AF70B581CF@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > At 11:26 AM -0400 9/20/06, Bryan Pope wrote: > >With Zane H. getting productive with his C64, I thought I would > >throw in what I finally got working on my C64 setup... > > > >Last night I was *finally* able to update one of the banks in my > >Retro-Reply with "The Final Replay" rom. This gives you the command > >"CODENET" which allows you to send and execute code on the C64 from > >another computer over TCP/IP. I sent the WarpCopy server and now I > >am able to archive disk to my PC or send D64 files to be wrote to > >a floppy. It takes only 22 seconds to send the whole contents of > >a disk to my PC! Now I just need to find three more drives... > > > >WarpCopy can be found here: http://www.oxyron.de/html/wc64.html . > >(The Final Replay rom is also available there.) > > Nice! How well does it handle writing D64 images back to a floppy? *Noticeably* longer! 11.62 *minutes* to be exact.. :( > I about went deaf last night while writing an image to my 1541. My > old Twinhead 386sx/16 laptop that I use to run Star Commander has a > battery that's basically dead, and I need to open it up and kill the > speaker that was howling. > Well, on the upside the noise it made while writing the image was minuscule. Even no knocking of the drive head! ;) > I really want the Retro-Replay cart and RR-Net, but haven't been able > to justify the cost :^( > It was easy for me to justify the cost for mine, 'cause I won it at LUCKI Expo 2004! :) But I did buy an IDE64 while I was there. > How "interesting" is it to get the Retro-Replay working? I gather > from looking at the doc's that it doesn't include anything in the > EPROM's, and that you have to get the ROM images loaded yourself? > IIRC, it already had a RR rom preloaded. To update it or flash it with "The Final Replay" you need to be able to write two files - the flashing prg and the rom to a floppy. I had a XE1541 cable I had made myself quite a few years ago that after quite a few hours I finally figured out wasn't making a good connection to my 1571. :( Probably because I couldn't get a six-pin connector at the time and had to settle for an eight-pin one and break off two of the pins... In the end I was able to make it work! :D And once you have the two files on the floppy, you jumper the "Flashmode" pins and LOAD "FLASH UTIL V3.8P",8,1 and RUN. It is menu driven and allows you to backup any existing roms before flashing with the new rom. Cheers, Bryan P.S. There are two 64 kB banks available on the Retro-Replay, so you can have the RR rom in one bank and The Final Replay in another. From rcini at optonline.net Wed Sep 20 20:54:08 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:54:08 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs Message-ID: <004101c6dd20$d390c510$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I'm playing around with VICE, the Commodore emulator and I wondered how others who use it deal with key remapping. Sometimes I find it hard locating the mapped keys because I look at the keycap and of course, the key is wrong (like TAB is CTRL, ESC is RUN/STOP, etc.) I'm looking for suggestions beyond sticking little labels on my keyboard :-) Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 20 21:06:43 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:06:43 -0500 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <004101c6dd20$d390c510$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <004101c6dd20$d390c510$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <4511F3B3.8070708@jbrain.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > > > I'm playing around with VICE, the Commodore emulator and I > wondered how others who use it deal with key remapping. Sometimes I find it > hard locating the mapped keys because I look at the keycap and of course, > the key is wrong (like TAB is CTRL, ESC is RUN/STOP, etc.) > > > > I'm looking for suggestions beyond sticking little labels on my > keyboard :-) > > www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/c=key/ Jim From gklinger at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 21:19:23 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:19:23 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <004101c6dd20$d390c510$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <004101c6dd20$d390c510$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: Richard A. Cini wrote: > Sometimes I find it > hard locating the mapped keys because I look at the keycap and of course, > the key is wrong (like TAB is CTRL, ESC is RUN/STOP, etc.) > > > > I'm looking for suggestions beyond sticking little labels on my > keyboard :-) My suggestion is to print out and keep on hand the graphic found on this page: http://vicekb.trikaliotis.net/03-001 -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From rcini at optonline.net Wed Sep 20 21:15:46 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:15:46 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <4511F3B3.8070708@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <004601c6dd23$d9705790$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> That is just awesome. How can I get one? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Brain Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 10:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Commodore keyboards and PCs Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > > > I'm playing around with VICE, the Commodore emulator and I > wondered how others who use it deal with key remapping. Sometimes I find it > hard locating the mapped keys because I look at the keycap and of course, > the key is wrong (like TAB is CTRL, ESC is RUN/STOP, etc.) > > > > I'm looking for suggestions beyond sticking little labels on my > keyboard :-) > > www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/c=key/ Jim From gklinger at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 21:27:27 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:27:27 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <004601c6dd23$d9705790$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <4511F3B3.8070708@jbrain.com> <004601c6dd23$d9705790$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: Richard A. Cini wrote: > That is just awesome. How can I get one? You make it. :) If you'd prefer a USB solution over a PS/2 one, see here: http://symlink.dk/electro/c64key/ If you're less of a make it and more of a buy it kind of person, consider this: http://www.vesalia.de/e_keyrah.htm Hope that helps. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 20 22:11:54 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:11:54 -0500 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <004601c6dd23$d9705790$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <004601c6dd23$d9705790$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <451202FA.9050106@jbrain.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > That is just awesome. How can I get one? > > Well, the schems are there, and the code is at www.jbrain.com/brain/c=key, as I recall. No finished boards available yet... Jim From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Sep 20 23:02:53 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:02:53 -0700 Subject: Old IRIX wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78E223F4-3CBD-4993-8564-6B4725BB20CD@loomcom.com> Following up to my own message: I've found three CDs of 4.0.5F (well, two CDs and the files from the third): 1. IRIX 4.0.5F (Bootable CD-ROM) 2. IRIX 4.0.5F Maintenance Release (CD-ROM) 3. IDO 4.1.1 (TAR of the files from the CD-ROM, but no CD-ROM. C and C++ support.) Still no word on Fortran or NFS for 4.0.5, but hey, this is progress! -Seth On Sep 19, 2006, at 2:39 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm curious if anyone has media for older IRIX releases. > Specifically, I'm looking for IRIX 4.0.5E, 4.0.5F, 4.0.5IOP or > 4.0.6IPR on CD. Anyone know if this is still floating around > somewhere? It's for a restoration of an Indigo running period > software (instead of IRIX 6.5.22 or 5.3, both of which I already > have, but are more recent). > > -Seth > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 20 17:57:52 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 18:57:52 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5W00E96YDKBZ5E@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:16:24 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> On Tuesday 19 September 2006 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > I also have/had a horrible one, originating from a Philips mini (PTS6000) >> > > which used 115VAC for one of the motors >> > >> > Most [1] 8" droves had mains-operated spindle motors, often 115V >> > (although 230V versions did exist). Note that the spindle speed depends >> >> Actually, I've got one that is set to run on 240V, 60Hz. It's out of a > >Needless to say the voltage is not that critical. 220V, 230V, 240V are >all the same :-) > >> (broken and now disassembled) IBM 3274 terminal controller (for the microcode >> floppy, of course). >> >> > [2] One reason I wouldn't conssider moving my collection to the States. >> >> Oh come on, The Great Dr. Duell isn't afraid of replacing SMT chips on boards, >> but is afraid of having to change a few pulleys? Something sounds fishy >> here... > >Oh, I'd be happy to change the pulleys and reset the belt tensions. The >problem is _getting_ the pulleys. Do you want to be the chap who phones >Seagate and says 'Hello, I think you used to be Shugart, do you have the >60Hz conversion kits for the SA801, SA851 and SA4000 in stock' Pft! If you brought them here you'd find spares from used drives or even working domestic versions. Non of those floppies are exactly rare and even the SA4000 is still around. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 20 18:49:16 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 19:49:16 -0400 Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060920194409.04c66eb0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >My problem is a decided lack of hardware on hand. You don't even want to >know what I had to do to come up with the hardware to fasten the 25-pin >connector to the case! I've had way too little sleep and way too deviant a mind (read: in the gutter) to be saying stuff like that around me... ;-) [[snip]] >...Nikon D70... ^^^ I have one of those - *great* camera until it gets the GBLOD, or "Green Blinking Led Of Death" like mine did 2 weeks ago. It happens really suddenly - works one week, doesn't the next. Ungh. :-( If it wasn't for a last-minute 1200mile roundtrip for business last week and a death in the family this week (800 mile roundtrip) -- not to mention possible unemployment soon... I'd have shipped it back to Nikon this week. Maybe if I have room I'll take it with me & do it anyway.... At least Nikon will fix 'em for free. There's a big story on www.dpreview.com Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Sep 21 01:56:12 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 01:56:12 -0500 Subject: New home for my Sol-20 website -- www.sol20.org Message-ID: <4512378C.2020902@pacbell.net> This past spring I took up Jay's offer of free hosting for classic computer web sites (thanks, Jay!). I had been sitting on some domain names for a while doing nothing with them, but his offer got me in motion. Unfortunately, things heated up at work and at home and I couldn't find the time in the past few months to finish off that last 3% before publishing the new web site. It is finally ready for action. http://www.sol20.org The old web site pages just redirect to the new web site. The content is slightly reorganized but for the most part is identical with the old site. The only new, but interesting, addition is a scan of the Sol schematics and PCB artwork that were offered for SASE in the Popular Electronics article that introduced the Sol. The production Sol had further changes after the article was published. The new web site makes use of CSS, but no javascript. The layout pretty much assumes that you have at least 800 pixels of horizontal resolution. I've tried it out in firefox, IE 6, and opera 9 and it looks pretty much as intended. I've even added some code to make the css disappear if the site is viewed with netscape 4.x. If you notice anything weird about the new look in a modern browser, please let me know about it. Thanks. From rcini at optonline.net Thu Sep 21 06:27:40 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:27:40 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <4511F3B3.8070708@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <005901c6dd70$f2f2c570$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Yep, saw the DIY package. I was looking for the boards already done. This is not a front burner project for me just yet (other things in the hopper right now), so I'll keep an eye out. Any idea of timing for boards? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Brain Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 10:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Commodore keyboards and PCs Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > > > I'm playing around with VICE, the Commodore emulator and I > wondered how others who use it deal with key remapping. Sometimes I find it > hard locating the mapped keys because I look at the keycap and of course, > the key is wrong (like TAB is CTRL, ESC is RUN/STOP, etc.) > > > > I'm looking for suggestions beyond sticking little labels on my > keyboard :-) > > www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/c=key/ Jim From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 06:45:46 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:45:46 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <20060920084945.13443.qmail@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Simon, On 9/20/06, Simon Fryer wrote: > I'll find out of the computer museum at Bletchley Park would like any > of the items. Jules Richardson, who works at the Bletchley museum, has already posted in this thread with what they'd like :) Jules Richardson wrote: > [snip] it's perhaps worth rescuing the Tek > hard-sectored disks for the museum; that's assuming that nobody has a more > pressing need for them (and their contents!), of course - I just wouldn't want > to see them go to landfill. > Small hard disks (particularly SCSI rather than IDE) are also worth rescuing > if nobody else wants them. > Oh, I believe we're short a few Sun type 4 keyboards for all of our Sun kit > (assuming the ten that were listed don't belong with the machines that were > also listed :-) > The UPS would be darn handy for the couple of new servers that have been put > into action recently... Austin, who's stated that he wants all the Sun kit (though it seems to be in high demand ;) has let me know that he's happy for all but a couple of the keyboards to go to Bletchley. I've had no requests so far for the UPS, box of small harddisks, or the Tek 8" floppies other than Jules's one (though several people have pointed out that said floppies should be saved - don't worry, I'm not going to landfill those even if some of the hardware does go. They will go to somewhere where they'll be preserved), so I'm guessing that lot goes to Bletchley (if it can find transport there) unless anyone else wants? There are most likely enough Sun keyboards that some go to Bletchley, anyone who wants just one machine can take one, and then some can go with Austin. I want to be as fair as possible about this :) I'll do a proper count of them over the next few days and post back here. John Shadbolt wrote: > Thanks Ed for offering this grand collection. No probs. Having been on this list for years, it was my first port of call for sure :) > I am particularly interested in the HP-85s and 86Bs, If you're not thinking of keeping all of these machines, would you be able to keep in touch with Vassilis, and this list, to find good homes for the others? I did have some interest when I initially advertised them shortly after I rescued them, but being unable to get onto testing them I wasn't able to do anything further about it. I would like any ROMs that Vassilis doesn't already have archived in the www.series80.org collection to go to him first for the use of the community. Actually, it's not going to take particularly long to pull the ROM drawers and inventory what I have here - I'll get onto that within a few days and post back here. > but could take other stuff too if it helps (eg Sun). I think some of this Sun kit has found homes several times over by now ;) There's a stack of MicroVAXen you're quite welcome to take on, though! Ed. From brain at jbrain.com Thu Sep 21 09:25:35 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:25:35 -0500 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <005901c6dd70$f2f2c570$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <005901c6dd70$f2f2c570$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <4512A0DF.60908@jbrain.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Yep, saw the DIY package. I was looking for the boards already done. > > This is not a front burner project for me just yet (other things in the > hopper right now), so I'll keep an eye out. Any idea of timing for boards? > > I'd like to make a run before the end of the year, but as with all "non-primary" things, timelines are subject to extreme slippage. jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 21 10:18:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:18:43 -0700 Subject: RR-Net + WarpCopy = :) In-Reply-To: <20060921003826.AF70B581CF@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060921003826.AF70B581CF@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: At 8:38 PM -0400 9/20/06, Bryan Pope wrote: >And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > > > At 11:26 AM -0400 9/20/06, Bryan Pope wrote: > > >WarpCopy can be found here: http://www.oxyron.de/html/wc64.html . >> >(The Final Replay rom is also available there.) >> > > Nice! How well does it handle writing D64 images back to a floppy? > >*Noticeably* longer! 11.62 *minutes* to be exact.. :( This still might be faster than my Twinhead 386sx/16 laptop using Star Commander to write over an X1541 cable. Plus when you add in the time it takes me to get the Twinhead setup (and go through the several tries booting to get the BIOS straightened out). Yes, the Twinhead is in sad shape as far as the batteries are concerned, but considering I bought it over 16 years ago, and that the BIOS batter gave out about 12 years ago, it's not doing too badly. > > I about went deaf last night while writing an image to my 1541. My > > old Twinhead 386sx/16 laptop that I use to run Star Commander has a >> battery that's basically dead, and I need to open it up and kill the >> speaker that was howling. >> > >Well, on the upside the noise it made while writing the image was >minuscule. Even no knocking of the drive head! ;) The drive doesn't make much noise for me either, except when formatting the floppy. The problem is the laptop howls like made unless enough of a charge is detected in the battery. >It was easy for me to justify the cost for mine, 'cause I won it >at LUCKI Expo 2004! :) But I did buy an IDE64 while I was there. Your 64 just has all the cool toys doesn't it :^) >IIRC, it already had a RR rom preloaded. To update it or flash it >with "The Final Replay" you need to be able to write two files - >the flashing prg and the rom to a floppy. I had a XE1541 cable I >had made myself quite a few years ago that after quite a few hours >I finally figured out wasn't making a good connection to my 1571. :( >Probably because I couldn't get a six-pin connector at the time >and had to settle for an eight-pin one and break off two of the >pins... > >In the end I was able to make it work! :D > >And once you have the two files on the floppy, you jumper the >"Flashmode" pins and LOAD "FLASH UTIL V3.8P",8,1 and RUN. It >is menu driven and allows you to backup any existing roms >before flashing with the new rom. I take it from this, that the only real part you had some much trouble with was getting the necessary files onto a floppy for your 64? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From root at parse.com Thu Sep 21 11:06:08 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Restoration of 8/M Message-ID: <200609211606.k8LG68Ph073522@amd64.ott.parse.com> For those interested in restoring old PDP-8's... I received an 8/M in very rough shape; you can read the adventures of restoration at: http://www.parse.com/~museum/pdp8/pdp8m/restore.html Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers! From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Sep 21 12:49:36 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RR-Net + WarpCopy = :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060921174936.8D07357F43@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > At 8:38 PM -0400 9/20/06, Bryan Pope wrote: > >And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > > > > > At 11:26 AM -0400 9/20/06, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > >WarpCopy can be found here: http://www.oxyron.de/html/wc64.html . > >> >(The Final Replay rom is also available there.) > >> > > > Nice! How well does it handle writing D64 images back to a floppy? > > > >*Noticeably* longer! 11.62 *minutes* to be exact.. :( > > This still might be faster than my Twinhead 386sx/16 laptop using > Star Commander to write over an X1541 cable. Plus when you add in > the time it takes me to get the Twinhead setup (and go through the > several tries booting to get the BIOS straightened out). Yes, the > Twinhead is in sad shape as far as the batteries are concerned, but > considering I bought it over 16 years ago, and that the BIOS batter > gave out about 12 years ago, it's not doing too badly. > It *may* work faster with JiffyDOS but I need to see if I have a system that has it installed. > > > I about went deaf last night while writing an image to my 1541. My > > > old Twinhead 386sx/16 laptop that I use to run Star Commander has a > >> battery that's basically dead, and I need to open it up and kill the > >> speaker that was howling. > >> > > > >Well, on the upside the noise it made while writing the image was > >minuscule. Even no knocking of the drive head! ;) > > The drive doesn't make much noise for me either, except when > formatting the floppy. The problem is the laptop howls like made > unless enough of a charge is detected in the battery. > You should disconnect one of the wires going to the speaker.. > >It was easy for me to justify the cost for mine, 'cause I won it > >at LUCKI Expo 2004! :) But I did buy an IDE64 while I was there. > > Your 64 just has all the cool toys doesn't it :^) > :) But only now am I finally able to use them! Just moved into a bigger place this month so now I have room for the toys. ;) > >IIRC, it already had a RR rom preloaded. To update it or flash it > >with "The Final Replay" you need to be able to write two files - > >the flashing prg and the rom to a floppy. I had a XE1541 cable I > >had made myself quite a few years ago that after quite a few hours > >I finally figured out wasn't making a good connection to my 1571. :( > >Probably because I couldn't get a six-pin connector at the time > >and had to settle for an eight-pin one and break off two of the > >pins... > > > >In the end I was able to make it work! :D > > > >And once you have the two files on the floppy, you jumper the > >"Flashmode" pins and LOAD "FLASH UTIL V3.8P",8,1 and RUN. It > >is menu driven and allows you to backup any existing roms > >before flashing with the new rom. > > I take it from this, that the only real part you had some much > trouble with was getting the necessary files onto a floppy for your > 64? > Yes, once I got that everything else "Just Worked"! Cheers, Bryan From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Sep 21 12:54:28 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:54:28 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs Message-ID: <01C6DD85.778A9EC0@MSE_D03> Not to take any business away from Jim and they are a little expensive, but wouldn't an off-the-shelf keyboard encoder do the job? I've used Hagstrom's KE24s ($99.99) for years, albeit in RS-232<>PS/2 mode. User-programmable matrix or discrete switch inputs to PC keyboard or RS-232, as well as RS-232 to/from PC keyboard. www.hagstromelectronics.com/modules.html mike -----------Original messages: Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:27:40 -0400 From: "Richard A. Cini" Subject: RE: Commodore keyboards and PCs To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Message-ID: <005901c6dd70$f2f2c570$6401a8c0 at bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Yep, saw the DIY package. I was looking for the boards already done. This is not a front burner project for me just yet (other things in the hopper right now), so I'll keep an eye out. Any idea of timing for boards? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Brain Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 10:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Commodore keyboards and PCs Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > > > I'm playing around with VICE, the Commodore emulator and I > wondered how others who use it deal with key remapping. Sometimes I find it > hard locating the mapped keys because I look at the keycap and of course, > the key is wrong (like TAB is CTRL, ESC is RUN/STOP, etc.) > > > > I'm looking for suggestions beyond sticking little labels on my > keyboard :-) > > www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/c=key/ Jim From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 21 16:58:05 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:58:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 68000 chips Message-ID: <200609212158.k8LLw5dY042102@keith.ezwind.net> Hi --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/18/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I got some 68000 DIP chips for ???3.00 off of > www.vint > > agecomputermarketplace.com the other week. I > finally > > got around to checking that they are of use to me > ( > > by comparing them with notes I have on the > internals > > of my old A600 Rev 1.1) and discovered that the y > ma > > y not be of use to me! :( > > Not of use how? I've never owned an A600 (I have > just about every > other model)... do they have PLCC (square-package) > CPUs? Aye, the main CPU is square. > > Were you trying to aquire these chips for spares o r > for an upgrade? Yeah, I just wanted them as spares for the existing co-processors on my Amiga's. Besides, for $3 (USD) I'm sure you couldn't resist either (if you own a 68K-based machine). > > > Here's the low-down on them: > > > > MC68000P10 > > 2 C91E DIP chip (rectangle with pins on > long sides) x 2 > > QEDB9215 > > Sounds like a Motorola CPU that can run as fast at > 10MHz (they marked > them as high as 12MHz, but I think those can be > clocked at 16MHz). > > > S (large logo S) SCN68000CAN64 > > 2208N19 DIP chip x1 > > 9035KE > >> snip << > > > -ethan > > Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 21 16:25:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:25:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060920194409.04c66eb0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 20, 6 07:49:16 pm Message-ID: > >My problem is a decided lack of hardware on hand. You don't even want to > >know what I had to do to come up with the hardware to fasten the 25-pin > >connector to the case! > > I've had way too little sleep and way too deviant a mind (read: in the > gutter) to be saying stuff like that around me... ;-) As a rather naive person when it comes to such matters, I really can't see anything smutty in the original message. > > > [[snip]] > > >...Nikon D70... > ^^^ > > I have one of those - *great* camera until it gets the GBLOD, or "Green > Blinking Led Of Death" like mine did 2 weeks ago. Fortunately my cameras are sufficiently old not to even know what an LED is :-). Heck, several of them have no electrical parts at all, not even a flash contact. a few drops of watch oil keep them going for decades ;-) > > It happens really suddenly - works one week, doesn't the next. > Ungh. :-( Particularly 'ouch' if you're on a once-io-a-lifetime trip or similar. > > If it wasn't for a last-minute 1200mile roundtrip for business last week > and a death in the family this week (800 mile roundtrip) -- not to mention I am sorry to hear that. My condolences (even though I never knew the person). > possible unemployment soon... I'd have shipped it back to Nikon this week. > Maybe if I have room I'll take it with me & do it anyway.... > > At least Nikon will fix 'em for free. Yes, but what happens if you get this problem years in the future? I prefer to know what the fix is and be able to do it myself. Not that I am likely to be buying a new Nikon... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 21 16:28:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:28:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5W00E96YDKBZ5E@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Sep 20, 6 06:57:52 pm Message-ID: > >Oh, I'd be happy to change the pulleys and reset the belt tensions. The > >problem is _getting_ the pulleys. Do you want to be the chap who phones > >Seagate and says 'Hello, I think you used to be Shugart, do you have the > >60Hz conversion kits for the SA801, SA851 and SA4000 in stock' > > Pft! If you brought them here you'd find spares from used drives or even > working domestic versions. Non of those floppies are exactly rare and even > the SA4000 is still around. Are they really that common in the States? They are not at all common in the UK any more, so don't think of that as being a source for 50Hz pulleys... And those were the easy drives. I guess RK05s wouldn't be too hard to find 60Hz pulleys for either. What about RX01s/02s? Do RK07s need converting? RL's I know don't. But my ASR33 would. And all my audio tape recorders (some of which may never have had 60Hz varients). Don't worry, I am not going to move to the States. It would be totally impractical for a lot of other reasons. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 21 17:28:08 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:28:08 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609211828.08688.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 21 September 2006 17:28, Tony Duell wrote: > And those were the easy drives. I guess RK05s wouldn't be too hard to > find 60Hz pulleys for either. What about RX01s/02s? Do RK07s need > converting? RL's I know don't. But my ASR33 would. And all my audio tape > recorders (some of which may never have had 60Hz varients). It'd probably be easier (and make more sense) to just get a frequency converter (like maybe a varible frequency motor drive which can output 50Hz)... Or, if you prefer, a pair of motors with the shafts connected, and the right RPM ratings, which will do the frequency conversion for you (certainly at a much less reasonable efficency). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 21 17:29:51 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609212232.SAA03444@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> You don't even want to know what I had to do to come up with the >>> hardware to fasten the 25-pin connector to the case! >> I've had way too little sleep and way too deviant a mind (read: in >> the gutter) to be saying stuff like that around me... ;-) > As a rather naive person when it comes to such matters, I really > can't see anything smutty in the original message. "When correctly viewed Everything is lewd!" /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 21 18:26:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:26:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609211828.08688.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Sep 21, 6 06:28:08 pm Message-ID: [UK disk drives in the States and vice versa] > Or, if you prefer, a pair of motors with the shafts connected, and the right > RPM ratings, which will do the frequency conversion for you (certainly at a > much less reasonable efficency). I did suggest getting a motor-generator set in the first message. It might be easier to link the motor and generator together with the appropiate mechanical ratio, say by using a toothed belt or gearing, rather than trying to find units with the right number of poles to be able to link them directly -tony From brain at jbrain.com Thu Sep 21 18:58:59 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:58:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: C64 Serial Port finished! In-Reply-To: <200609212232.SAA03444@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200609212232.SAA03444@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <2624.70.213.54.76.1158883139.squirrel@www.jimbrain.com> QLink is back up. The DNS might not work, so use 66.135.38.238 port 5190 for your QEnjoyment. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Sep 22 01:14:53 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 01:14:53 -0500 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: <4510E224.8030609@mindspring.com> References: <002001c6dc56$921dea10$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <4510E224.8030609@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Okay, it halts with 20 in the octal display. Is that the address? I guess I need to take this one step at a time. On Sep 20, 2006, at 1:39 AM, Don North wrote: > Julian Wolfe wrote: >> Okay, I had a look at the instruction listing and to be honest, >> have no idea >> what I'm looking at. How do I figure out what test was running >> when it >> failed, and how do I decipher what that means? Is 330 the number >> on the >> very left of the page? >> >> If so, it says to scope the problem, replace halt with 240 (is >> this JMP?) >> and replace the next instruction with 703 (what's that? Where I'm >> jumping >> to?) >> >> Anyway, of course, any help would be much appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> Julian > > You need to run the trap test and when it halts (meaning a failure) > then > observe the halt address in the lights on the console display. Forget > about the stack pointer and all that stuff until you know where in the > diagnostic the failure is located. > > THEN if it is relevant you can examine the registers and/or memory to > get more info. But you need to know what to look for first, and the > starting point is the halt address in the console lights. > > Don From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 21 18:41:42 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 19:41:42 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J5Y00162V3WZJ82@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:28:09 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >Oh, I'd be happy to change the pulleys and reset the belt tensions. The >> >problem is _getting_ the pulleys. Do you want to be the chap who phones >> >Seagate and says 'Hello, I think you used to be Shugart, do you have the >> >60Hz conversion kits for the SA801, SA851 and SA4000 in stock' >> >> Pft! If you brought them here you'd find spares from used drives or even >> working domestic versions. Non of those floppies are exactly rare and even >> the SA4000 is still around. > >Are they really that common in the States? They are not at all common in >the UK any more, so don't think of that as being a source for 50Hz pulleys... If you were her than 50hz pulleys are a non issue. ;) >And those were the easy drives. I guess RK05s wouldn't be too hard to >find 60Hz pulleys for either. What about RX01s/02s? Do RK07s need >converting? RL's I know don't. But my ASR33 would. And all my audio tape >recorders (some of which may never have had 60Hz varients). Lifes rough. The solution I used once for a 50hz and later a 400hz motor was a simple transformer output pushpull amp fed with a wein bridge osc, a very good way to generate variable frequency sinewavs in the <100W class. so happens I had a 12.6V CT (12A) transformer with the requisite 120V primary. Into a lamp load it was under 1% THD and voltage stability was as good (5%). I ended up using it for all sorts of AC motor control solutions. Didn't require special parts or machine shop either. >Don't worry, I am not going to move to the States. It would be totally >impractical for a lot of other reasons. Whats practicality got to do with anything? :) Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 22 01:47:11 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:47:11 +0100 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <01C6DD85.778A9EC0@MSE_D03> References: <01C6DD85.778A9EC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <451386EF.6020800@gjcp.net> M H Stein wrote: > Not to take any business away from Jim and they are a little expensive, Erm... If you just wanted to encode switch presses to a PS/2 input, why not just buy an el-cheapo keyboard for about ?2 from your friendly neighbourhood computer shop and set about it? Bit better than the $100... Gordon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 22 09:24:22 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:24:22 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609211828.08688.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: >From: Patrick Finnegan > >On Thursday 21 September 2006 17:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > And those were the easy drives. I guess RK05s wouldn't be too hard to > > find 60Hz pulleys for either. What about RX01s/02s? Do RK07s need > > converting? RL's I know don't. But my ASR33 would. And all my audio tape > > recorders (some of which may never have had 60Hz varients). > >It'd probably be easier (and make more sense) to just get a frequency >converter (like maybe a varible frequency motor drive which can output >50Hz)... > >Or, if you prefer, a pair of motors with the shafts connected, and the >right >RPM ratings, which will do the frequency conversion for you (certainly at a >much less reasonable efficency). > >Pat Hi Although not recommended, years ago we got some 8 inch drive at surplus that were 50Hz. The drives were cheap and we didn't want to invest a lot. We simply ground down the motor pulley with a file. We checked our progress with a strobe disk on the flywheel. It did require elongating the mounting holes for the motor. Today, we'd most likely just use a lathe and turn what we needed. Dwight From fryers at gmail.com Fri Sep 22 10:05:38 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:05:38 +0100 Subject: Expensive VT420 on Ebay. Message-ID: Hey all, Just saw this on ebay uk - a VT420 with a buy it now price of ?50. Makes the one I got for free seem quite valuable! Item number 110034030429 Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Sep 22 10:22:07 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:22:07 +0100 Subject: Expensive VT420 on Ebay. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00d101c6de5a$df4a4fd0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Simon Fryer wrote: > Just saw this on ebay uk - a VT420 with a buy it now price of ?50. > > Item number 110034030429 Interestingly the guy has a uVAX 3100-40 on sale at 1/10th of the price! Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 22 11:11:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:11:54 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609220911540027.003F06C3@10.0.0.252> On 9/22/2006 at 7:24 AM dwight elvey wrote: >Although not recommended, years ago we got some 8 inch drive at surplus >that were 50Hz. The drives were cheap and we didn't want to invest a >lot. We simply ground down the motor pulley with a file. We checked our >progress with a strobe disk on the flywheel. It did require elongating the >mounting holes for the motor. When I wanted to use a 50Hz 8" drive on 60Hz, I worked out the size of the new pulley, went to Halted and dug around their parts bins. I came up with something of the right diameter and shaft size, but made for a toothed timing belt. Not "crowned", but it had flanges to keep the belt in place. I used it for almost a decade, running the spindle motor from 240v 60Hz, courtesy of a linear P/S with 2 primary windings hooked in series as an autotransformer. I didn't have a lathe back then; if I had to do the same thing today, it'd be a simple matter to turn a new one. Cheers, Chuck From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 22 11:26:15 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:26:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Few Q's about a PET & Expandapet In-Reply-To: <200609220911540027.003F06C3@10.0.0.252> References: <200609220911540027.003F06C3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17732.88.211.153.27.1158942375.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have been playing around with the PET and the Expandapet card I aquired recently. As there was no documentation with the expandapet, I connected the floppy cable to the drive and powered first the machine up, and then the drive. Floppy lights come on, but the motor does not spin, even for a short moment. When I repeat it, but this time reversing the flatcable connector, the motors do spin constantly. In both cases, the system reports 8K memory, and the sys(45056) command freezes the machine completely, only a reset helps. Oh, the powercable is connected.... On the expandapet board, there are 4 card slots, the last slot (back of the machine, has the floppy controller, and the slot before that has the little card with 2 eproms. The remaining 2 slots are empty. Quetions which comes to mind are - does the machine report 32K i.s.o 8k when the board is mounted and connected, or does it always need the SYS command to detect the extra memory? - Anyone have the schematics? Thanks, Ed From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Fri Sep 22 11:33:15 2006 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:33:15 -0400 Subject: Few Q's about a PET & Expandapet In-Reply-To: <17732.88.211.153.27.1158942375.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002101c6de64$ce0c0d30$0c3ca8c0@ctrenaissance.net> > - does the machine report 32K i.s.o 8k when the board is mounted and connected, or does it always need the SYS command to detect the extra memory? It should report all the memory installed, not 8K. You can use the memory without the SYS command. The SYS command only "hooks in" the disk operating system commands into the command interpreter - has nothing to do with RAM usage. - Bob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 22 12:45:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:45:03 +0000 Subject: DG Nova 3 wanted (UK) Message-ID: <4514211F.5020404@yahoo.co.uk> Had a query from a chap looking for a DG Nova 3 in the UK, as part of a museum project for English Heritage. I'm still gathering details, but I'm getting the impression that the look is far more important than operational status, as the software (and associated network) that used to run with the particular system he's trying to recreate is long-gone. (Hence I've mentioned just getting a mock-up done as one possibility) Anyone have a line on any Nova 3 systems left in the UK though? They never did seem that popular outside the US; I know all we have at the museum are a few stray boards. cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Sep 22 12:16:41 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:16:41 -0700 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: References: <002001c6dc56$921dea10$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <4510E224.8030609@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <45141A79.9050903@mindspring.com> Julian Wolfe wrote: > Okay, it halts with 20 in the octal display. Is that the address? > > I guess I need to take this one step at a time. > > On Sep 20, 2006, at 1:39 AM, Don North wrote: > Ok, this means that the halt instruction was at 16(8) and probably came from the trapcatcher setup at 14(8). You can verify this by examining location 14(8) and see that is has a 16(8) in it. 14(8) is the vector for the BPT instruction. Now you need to examine the SP and look on the stack at (SP) to find the saved PC of where the actual trap occurred. This should be back somewhere in the program code (if you are lucky). It could be you are unlucky :-(, your CPU went wild and just happened to run across an instruction word with an opcode of 000003 (which is BPT). From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Sep 22 14:08:35 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:08:35 -0400 Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive Message-ID: <451434B3.5070201@gmail.com> Does anyone have an extra 360kB HH 5.25" PC-compatible floppy drive lying around? Or maybe two? Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 22 14:19:54 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 07:19:54 +1200 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <451386EF.6020800@gjcp.net> References: <01C6DD85.778A9EC0@MSE_D03> <451386EF.6020800@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 9/22/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > Erm... If you just wanted to encode switch presses to a PS/2 input, why > not just buy an el-cheapo keyboard for about ?2 from your friendly > neighbourhood computer shop and set about it? Bit better than the $100... I just did that with the guts from a USB keyboard - it was free from the trash... I found out why when I started mapping the matrix... the white wire (one of the serial wires) had cracked insulation right at the point the cable entered the keyboard. The cable was already soldered to the PCB, so I just made it a few cm shorter and it works great now. I was happy I was able to conclusively point to the fault that caused it to be pitched in the first place... made all the rest of the work worth it. All I really needed from it was to have an external trigger switch be able to send a keystroke for "next page" or "next song" or "next picture" - I probably would have bought a specialized keyboard controller that lets you send between 1-3 selectable individual keypresses, but I've never seen that as a product. -ethan From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Sep 22 16:12:58 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:12:58 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs Message-ID: <01C6DE6A.674DF620@MSE_D03> --------------Original Message: Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:47:11 +0100 From: Gordon JC Pearce Subject: Re: Commodore keyboards and PCs >M H Stein wrote: >> Not to take any business away from Jim and they are a little expensive, >Erm... If you just wanted to encode switch presses to a PS/2 input, why >not just buy an el-cheapo keyboard for about ?2 from your friendly >neighbourhood computer shop and set about it? Bit better than the $100... >Gordon -------------Reply: True enough, but you don't have the look & feel or the C64 key labels & layout; I think the idea is to use a defunct C64 and use it as a keyboard for the emulator. In fact, since it's a snap to upload different conversion tables into it you could use it for several different emulators of systems using RS-232 or matrix (and probably ASCII as well) keyboards, all on the same computer; just plug in the appropriate keyboard, upload the matching table and it's just like the real thing but without the "real" hardware. Also I thought I'd mention it for the RS-232<>PC keyboard option, something I've found useful for several applications; interfacing to otherwise inaccessible systems and replacing terminal keyboards are two examples. Finally, the folks at Hagstrom have always been friendly & helpful and I thought I'd give 'em a plug :) m From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 22 16:27:59 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 09:27:59 +1200 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <01C6DE6A.674DF620@MSE_D03> References: <01C6DE6A.674DF620@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On 9/23/06, M H Stein wrote: > True enough, but you don't have the look & feel or the C64 key labels & layout; > I think the idea is to use a defunct C64 and use it as a keyboard for the emulator. Why only defunct? You could take a working C-64, unplug the keyboard, then place the microcontroller inside the case and run the PS/2 or USB cable out the cartridge slot to your emulation host. Trivially reversable. Of course, there _are_ lots of defunct C-64s out there, so one wouldn't have to go looking very far to get a shell w/keyboard (I have a couple on a top shelf...) -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Fri Sep 22 17:10:39 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:10:39 -0500 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: References: <01C6DE6A.674DF620@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <45145F5F.9060104@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/23/06, M H Stein wrote: >> True enough, but you don't have the look & feel or the C64 key labels >> & layout; >> I think the idea is to use a defunct C64 and use it as a keyboard for >> the emulator. > > Why only defunct? You could take a working C-64, unplug the keyboard, > then place the microcontroller inside the case and run the PS/2 or USB > cable out the cartridge slot to your emulation host. Trivially > reversable. Of course, there _are_ lots of defunct C-64s out there, > so one wouldn't have to go looking very far to get a shell w/keyboard > (I have a couple on a top shelf...) > > -ethan Technically, C=Key is designed to work inside a perfectly functional C64 or C128. If the 64 is on, it will convert PS2 inputs to C64 keypresses (in combination with the current 64 KB). If the 64 is off, it will convert the C64 KB actions to PS2 KB events. If you turn on the 64 while it is configured to use the KB to PS/2 direction, you'll no doubt get lots of funky chars on the screen, as the uController keyscan routine will not be synced to the 64 keyscan routine, and thus they will "see" each other. Caveat Emptor for someone who does that. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 22 17:42:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:42:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J5Y00162V3WZJ82@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Sep 21, 6 07:41:42 pm Message-ID: > >Are they really that common in the States? They are not at all common in > >the UK any more, so don't think of that as being a source for 50Hz pulleys... > > If you were her than 50hz pulleys are a non issue. ;) Sure, but if anyone was mad enough to bring their collection across to England, they would not be able to find the right pulleys... > > Lifes rough. The solution I used once for a 50hz and later a 400hz motor > was a simple transformer output pushpull amp fed with a wein bridge osc, Sure. I am told (and probably have the service sheet for) there was an AC/DC mains radiogram sold in the UK that had an AC motor for the record turntable. There was a unit, only used on DC mains, that consisted of 3 valves, acting as an oscillator and push-pull output (the last 2 valves were probably 50L6s.). Of course there was no HT rectifier, since it was only used on DC mains (The radio/amplifier section was the normal series-string heaters and half-wave rectifier type of thing). -tony From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sat Sep 23 04:03:10 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 04:03:10 -0500 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: <45141A79.9050903@mindspring.com> References: <002001c6dc56$921dea10$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <4510E224.8030609@mindspring.com> <45141A79.9050903@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Don North wrote: > Julian Wolfe wrote: >> Okay, it halts with 20 in the octal display. Is that the address? >> >> I guess I need to take this one step at a time. >> >> On Sep 20, 2006, at 1:39 AM, Don North wrote: >> > > Ok, this means that the halt instruction was at 16(8) and probably > came from the trapcatcher setup at 14(8). You can verify this by > examining location 14(8) and see that is has a 16(8) in it. I did that and got exactly as expected. > > 14(8) is the vector for the BPT instruction. Now you need to examine > the SP and look on the stack at (SP) to find the saved PC of where > the actual trap occurred. This should be back somewhere in the program > code (if you are lucky). It could be you are unlucky :-(, your CPU > went > wild and just happened to run across an instruction word with an > opcode of 000003 (which is BPT). Examining the SP gives me a value of 470(8) on the display. Now, from what I understand, I should be looking for this address in the listing, correct? Here is where I have difficulty; it seems to jump from 342(8) to 500 (8) in the instruction listing. Did my CPU go nuts, or am I just interpreting this wrong? I am referring to the gap between lines 107 and 112 on page 5 of the bitsavers copy of the instruction listing. Thanks again for your help. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 22 18:56:43 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 19:56:43 -0400 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences Message-ID: <0J60005V6QGKA5K1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CompuPro floppy controller differences > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:42:29 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >Are they really that common in the States? They are not at all common in >> >the UK any more, so don't think of that as being a source for 50Hz pulleys... >> >> If you were her than 50hz pulleys are a non issue. ;) > >Sure, but if anyone was mad enough to bring their collection across to >England, they would not be able to find the right pulleys... > >> >> Lifes rough. The solution I used once for a 50hz and later a 400hz motor >> was a simple transformer output pushpull amp fed with a wein bridge osc, > >Sure. > >I am told (and probably have the service sheet for) there was an AC/DC >mains radiogram sold in the UK that had an AC motor for the record >turntable. There was a unit, only used on DC mains, that consisted of 3 >valves, acting as an oscillator and push-pull output (the last 2 valves >were probably 50L6s.). Of course there was no HT rectifier, since it was >only used on DC mains (The radio/amplifier section was the normal >series-string heaters and half-wave rectifier type of thing). > Not the same thing though may be the same idea. What I have is a unit I designed as a variable frequency power source (115-125VAC) self contained that runs off line power (has own PS) and run AC motors to 100W in the range of 25-500hz. Very handy for older audio tape decks that are slightly off speed or if you slew the tape while hearing it (off speed). Mine is a proto I built 30 years ago and the production version was used to run a 3M 1" 8track commercial deck for studio use. Many of the multitrack decks had DC motor contros but not all. That variation allowed for a computer interface to alter speed off spec to find and sync timecodes on the tape. The controller also managed the deck for FF, forward, rewind, speed select and stop. Very impressive to see two decks running 14 tracks of music and this would sync both perfectly or offset as desired (for effects). That system used sinewave drive to keep noise out of the system as we found square waves worked fine but the amps and all tended to hear it.. and harmonics of it. I also have a smaller version that runs from 12V battery for smaller motors to 30watts. Most motors tolerate a squware wave source so efficientcy can be very high. The trick of running AC motors off variable frequency also is used for my antenna rotator (ham radio) so I can make large changes in azmuth with acceleration and deceleration as most rotator are AC motors and the antennas have some interta (15 and 18 foot booms). This also has a microcontroller (8749) to manage the position and motor controls. Doing it with a solidstate converter is far more efficient than motor driven alternators for frequency conversion at low power. Much quieter too. I've since seen the same thing for done for large (10hp and up) motor controller. The whole show comes from the days of doing audio consoles both analog and early digital. Obviously the method could also produce 230V AC if desired. So 50hz pulleys, no problem! Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 23 03:13:18 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 09:13:18 +0100 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <01C6DE6A.674DF620@MSE_D03> References: <01C6DE6A.674DF620@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4514EC9E.7090208@gjcp.net> M H Stein wrote: > --------------Original Message: > Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:47:11 +0100 > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Subject: Re: Commodore keyboards and PCs > > >> M H Stein wrote: >>> Not to take any business away from Jim and they are a little expensive, > >> Erm... If you just wanted to encode switch presses to a PS/2 input, why >> not just buy an el-cheapo keyboard for about ?2 from your friendly >> neighbourhood computer shop and set about it? Bit better than the $100... > >> Gordon > > -------------Reply: > > True enough, but you don't have the look & feel or the C64 key labels & layout; > I think the idea is to use a defunct C64 and use it as a keyboard for the emulator. That's why you use an el-cheapo keyboard and pull the board from it, and hook up your own matrix... > In fact, since it's a snap to upload different conversion tables into it you could use > it for several different emulators of systems using RS-232 or matrix (and probably ASCII as well) keyboards, all on the same computer; just plug in the appropriate > keyboard, upload the matching table and it's just like the real thing but without the > "real" hardware. Well that is pretty handy I suppose. > Also I thought I'd mention it for the RS-232<>PC keyboard option, something I've > found useful for several applications; interfacing to otherwise inaccessible > systems and replacing terminal keyboards are two examples. > > Finally, the folks at Hagstrom have always been friendly & helpful and I thought > I'd give 'em a plug :) Fairy nuff. I suppose it's one of those things that when you need it, you *really* need it. I'd think it would be a bit beyond the "hobbyist toy" market though ;-) Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 23 08:24:43 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 09:24:43 -0400 Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive Message-ID: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:08:35 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Does anyone have an extra 360kB HH 5.25" PC-compatible floppy drive >lying around? Or maybe two? > >Peace... Sridhar Yes, a bunch. Are they rare around there? Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Sep 23 11:37:06 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 12:37:06 -0400 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: References: <002001c6dc56$921dea10$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <45141A79.9050903@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200609231237.06843.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 23 September 2006 05:03, Julian Wolfe wrote: > On Sep 22, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Don North wrote: > > Julian Wolfe wrote: > >> Okay, it halts with 20 in the octal display. Is that the address? > >> > >> I guess I need to take this one step at a time. > >> > >> On Sep 20, 2006, at 1:39 AM, Don North wrote: > > > > Ok, this means that the halt instruction was at 16(8) and probably > > came from the trapcatcher setup at 14(8). You can verify this by > > examining location 14(8) and see that is has a 16(8) in it. > > I did that and got exactly as expected. > > > 14(8) is the vector for the BPT instruction. Now you need to examine > > the SP and look on the stack at (SP) to find the saved PC of where > > the actual trap occurred. This should be back somewhere in the program > > code (if you are lucky). It could be you are unlucky :-(, your CPU > > went > > wild and just happened to run across an instruction word with an > > opcode of 000003 (which is BPT). > > Examining the SP gives me a value of 470(8) on the display. Now, from > what I understand, I should be looking for this address in the > listing, correct? No, SP (which I take it has the value of 470(8)) is the stack pointer, so you should look at the contents of address 470(8) to find out the value of PC when the machine trapped. The notation (SP) means the contents of the address indicated by SP. Now, most machines I've used decrement SP *after* storing the value -- which would mean that the PC should actually be stored at 472(8). Is the PDP-11 different, or should Julian actually be looking at 472(8) instead of 470(8)? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat Sep 23 12:07:46 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:07:46 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs Message-ID: <4affc5e0609231007j42977886q1ae0e483ef05643a@mail.gmail.com> > From: Jim Brain > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:10:39 -0500 > Subject: Re: Commodore keyboards and PCs > Technically, C=Key is designed to work inside a perfectly functional C64 > or C128. If the 64 is on, it will convert PS2 inputs to C64 keypresses > (in combination with the current 64 KB). If the 64 is off, it will > convert the C64 KB actions to PS2 KB events. I was thinking... isn't the PS/2 keyboard protocol simply a low-bitrate serial protocol at TTL levels? Could the 6510 then not act as the microcontroller? That is, why not connect the user port to the PS/2 port and run a program on the C64 to send the keypresses to the PC? Of course, this runs dangerously into the direction of a "why use an emulator if you have the real thing" kind of debate... :-) Joe. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 12:10:35 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 10:10:35 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <0J60005V6QGKA5K1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: >From: Allison ---snip--- > >I also have a smaller version that runs from 12V battery for smaller >motors to 30watts. Most motors tolerate a squware wave source so >efficientcy can be very high. The trick of running AC motors off >variable frequency also is used for my antenna rotator (ham radio) so >I can make large changes in azmuth with acceleration and deceleration >as most rotator are AC motors and the antennas have some interta >(15 and 18 foot booms). This also has a microcontroller (8749) to >manage the position and motor controls. > >Doing it with a solidstate converter is far more efficient than motor >driven alternators for frequency conversion at low power. Much quieter >too. I've since seen the same thing for done for large (10hp and up) >motor controller. > ---snip--- Hi A friend has an older Celestron telescope with an AC clock drive. We took one of those 12v to AC converters and added a couple pots and switches to vary the frequency for tracking the telescope while doing photo work. The converter used simple 555 circuits to control the frequency so it was relatively easy to modify. It is often much simpler to modify one of these than to build something from scratch. One does have to be careful, the capacitors can have nasty voltages on them. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 12:31:57 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 10:31:57 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: <200609220911540027.003F06C3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 9/22/2006 at 7:24 AM dwight elvey wrote: > > >Although not recommended, years ago we got some 8 inch drive at surplus > >that were 50Hz. The drives were cheap and we didn't want to invest a > >lot. We simply ground down the motor pulley with a file. We checked our > >progress with a strobe disk on the flywheel. It did require elongating >the > >mounting holes for the motor. > >When I wanted to use a 50Hz 8" drive on 60Hz, I worked out the size of the >new pulley, went to Halted and dug around their parts bins. I came up with >something of the right diameter and shaft size, but made for a toothed >timing belt. Not "crowned", but it had flanges to keep the belt in place. >I used it for almost a decade, running the spindle motor from 240v 60Hz, >courtesy of a linear P/S with 2 primary windings hooked in series as an >autotransformer. I didn't have a lathe back then; if I had to do the same >thing today, it'd be a simple matter to turn a new one. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Chuck We did similar but used a file to reduce the pully size with the motor spinning. We also used the input leads of a transformer as an autotransformer to reduce the voltage. Using cogged belts for drives can cause jitter that makes it hard to write and read data. It is true that most are more forgiving of the motors pulley but I've had cases where small corrosion on the flywheel surface where the belt rode was enough to cause problems. Halted is a local ( Sunnyvale,Ca, USA) surplus shop, for those not from this area. Dwight From brain at jbrain.com Sat Sep 23 13:11:54 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:11:54 -0500 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0609231007j42977886q1ae0e483ef05643a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0609231007j42977886q1ae0e483ef05643a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <451578EA.4020601@jbrain.com> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> From: Jim Brain >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:10:39 -0500 >> Subject: Re: Commodore keyboards and PCs >> Technically, C=Key is designed to work inside a perfectly functional C64 >> or C128. If the 64 is on, it will convert PS2 inputs to C64 keypresses >> (in combination with the current 64 KB). If the 64 is off, it will >> convert the C64 KB actions to PS2 KB events. > > I was thinking... isn't the PS/2 keyboard protocol simply a > low-bitrate serial protocol at TTL levels? Could the 6510 then not > act as the microcontroller? It is, and it can. I think, though, cycle times are 50uS, which might post some timing challenges. > That is, why not connect the user port to the PS/2 port and run a > program on the C64 to send the keypresses to the PC? If that was the main goal of the 64, that would work. However, most folks don't want to drag around a C64 PS to power the CPU and a 1541 drive to load the program, or make a cartridge to hold the program. uC are cheap, and the 64 KB to PS/2 direction is a single chip implementation. > > Of course, this runs dangerously into the direction of a "why use an > emulator if you have the real thing" kind of debate... :-) > > Joe. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat Sep 23 13:20:31 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:20:31 -0700 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: <200609231237.06843.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <002001c6dc56$921dea10$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <45141A79.9050903@mindspring.com> <200609231237.06843.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45157AEF.5030304@mindspring.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Saturday 23 September 2006 05:03, Julian Wolfe wrote: >> On Sep 22, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Don North wrote: >>> Julian Wolfe wrote: >> Examining the SP gives me a value of 470(8) on the display. Now, from >> what I understand, I should be looking for this address in the >> listing, correct? > > No, SP (which I take it has the value of 470(8)) is the stack pointer, so you > should look at the contents of address 470(8) to find out the value of PC > when the machine trapped. The notation (SP) means the contents of the > address indicated by SP. That's correct ... you need to look at the memory location pointed to by the SP (written as (SP) or @SP to show indirection, as one would write assembly code). > > Now, most machines I've used decrement SP *after* storing the value -- which > would mean that the PC should actually be stored at 472(8). Is the PDP-11 > different, or should Julian actually be looking at 472(8) instead of 470(8)? In the PDP-11 the stack pointer addresses the last word pushed, so in the case of a trap, @SP or (SP) will point directly to the word containing the pushed PC. So look in memory location 470(8) to see where the code was interrupted. 470(8) is a reasonable SP for most diagnostics (typically the SP would be setup to 500 or 1000(8) on startup and build down from there). From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 23 13:33:03 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <451434B3.5070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060923183303.92020.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Does anyone have an extra 360kB HH 5.25" > PC-compatible floppy drive > lying around? Or maybe two? > > Peace... Sridhar > I don't have any lying around...but I got a few sitting up strait. And there's a couple over there doing jumping-jax LOL LOL LOL LOL. O my God. O man. Phew __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Sep 23 13:33:38 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 14:33:38 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs Message-ID: <01C6DF1D.5D8E72A0@MSE_D03> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 09:13:18 +0100 From: Gordon JC Pearce Subject: Re: Commodore keyboards and PCs >>> Erm... If you just wanted to encode switch presses to a PS/2 input, why >>> not just buy an el-cheapo keyboard for about ?2 from your friendly >>> neighbourhood computer shop and set about it? Bit better than the $100... >> >>> Gordon >> >> -------------Reply: >> >> True enough, but you don't have the look & feel or the C64 key labels & layout; >> I think the idea is to use a defunct C64 and use it as a keyboard for the emulator. >That's why you use an el-cheapo keyboard and pull the board from it, and >hook up your own matrix... Ah, I misunderstood; I thought you meant just relabel the keys. Mind you, rewiring the matrix would make the keyboard incompatible with the C64 (although it'd be a relaxing project for a Saturday afternoon...) I didn't mean that it _had_ to be defunct, just that if you only had a non-repairable C64 this'd be a good way to have its equivalent; if your PC had video out as many of them do these days, you could even hook it up to a Commodore monitor for the real look&feel. But if all you need is input from a few buttons or switches like for a dedicated MP3 player for example, using the guts from a keyboard is a quick & easy way to go (as ethan described); have done that too for a few projects. Interesting to see how they've shrunk over the years, from 2 or 3 LSI and a half-dozen TTL glue chips to a tiny blob of epoxy... mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 23 14:13:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 12:13:46 -0700 Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609231213460636.060BE33E@10.0.0.252> On 9/23/2006 at 10:31 AM dwight elvey wrote: >Halted is a local ( Sunnyvale,Ca, USA) surplus shop, for those not >from this area. ...and the one-time home of a lot of very strange stuff. Even stranger than Weird Stuff. Nowadays, it's fairly tame, but it used to be a haunt of many Silicon Valley engineers. Cheers, Chuck From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sat Sep 23 15:33:21 2006 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 16:33:21 -0400 Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060923163052.01941968@cogeco.ca> At 09:24 AM 9/23/2006, you wrote: > > > >Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive > > From: Sridhar Ayengar > > Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:08:35 -0400 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > >Does anyone have an extra 360kB HH 5.25" PC-compatible floppy drive > >lying around? Or maybe two? > > > >Peace... Sridhar > >Yes, a bunch. Are they rare around there? > >Allison Is there any easy way of telling a 360 K from a 1.2 Meg? I have a bunch of 5 1/4 drives. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca Check out The Camcorder Kindergarten at www.chasfoxvideo.com From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Sep 23 15:46:07 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:46:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Amiga 2000 Message-ID: <27748.144.160.5.25.1159044367.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> I need to get rid of an Amiga 2000. Any interest? IF there's a few buck in it for me, hurrah, else I'd like it to have a decent home with someone who's interested in Amiga. It was Don's. -T From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 23 15:46:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:46:56 -0700 Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060923163052.01941968@cogeco.ca> References: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20060923163052.01941968@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200609231346560880.06612FEA@10.0.0.252> On 9/23/2006 at 4:33 PM Charles E. Fox wrote: > Is there any easy way of telling a 360 K from a 1.2 Meg? I >have a bunch of 5 1/4 drives. Posting a few model numbers might just do the trick. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 23 16:02:50 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:02:50 -0400 Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <200609231346560880.06612FEA@10.0.0.252> References: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20060923163052.01941968@cogeco.ca> <200609231346560880.06612FEA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609231702.50587.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 23 September 2006 04:46 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/23/2006 at 4:33 PM Charles E. Fox wrote: > > Is there any easy way of telling a 360 K from a 1.2 Meg? I > >have a bunch of 5 1/4 drives. > > Posting a few model numbers might just do the trick. I've been wondering about that myself for some time now... Also which models are which for 3.5s, as in 720K vs. 1.44M. If folks want to send me model numbers, I'll put a web page together, how's that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 23 16:05:45 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 14:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 2000 Message-ID: <20060923210545.47106.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> intererted if it works...located in NE Pennsyltucky LOL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 23 16:12:18 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 14:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <200609231702.50587.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20060923163052.01941968@cogeco.ca> <200609231346560880.06612FEA@10.0.0.252> <200609231702.50587.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060923140744.Y65348@shell.lmi.net> > > On 9/23/2006 at 4:33 PM Charles E. Fox wrote: > > > Is there any easy way of telling a 360 K from a 1.2 Meg? I > > >have a bunch of 5 1/4 drives. If there is an asterisk embossed on the front plate, then it is 360K. If there is NOT an asterisk, then it is 360K, 720K, 1.2M, or OTHER. > On Saturday 23 September 2006 04:46 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Posting a few model numbers might just do the trick. That is the most reliable way. But even then, there are glitches: I have some TM100-4M (100TPI Tandon) drives that are marked TM100-4 (96tpi Tandon) On Sat, 23 Sep 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I've been wondering about that myself for some time now... > Also which models are which for 3.5s, as in 720K vs. 1.44M. Although NOT completely reliable, look for the media sensor. (Many/most/all IBM PS/2 1.4M drives do not have a media sensor!) > If folks want to send me model numbers, I'll put a web page together, how's > that? aren't there already some such pages? From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 23 16:17:35 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:17:35 -0400 Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <20060923140744.Y65348@shell.lmi.net> References: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609231702.50587.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060923140744.Y65348@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609231717.35079.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 23 September 2006 05:12 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 23 Sep 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I've been wondering about that myself for some time now... > > Also which models are which for 3.5s, as in 720K vs. 1.44M. > > Although NOT completely reliable, look for the media sensor. > (Many/most/all IBM PS/2 1.4M drives do not have a media sensor!) > > > If folks want to send me model numbers, I'll put a web page together, > > how's that? > > aren't there already some such pages? Beats me. If you know of some feel free to post links. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 23 16:25:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 22:25:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <4514EC9E.7090208@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Sep 23, 6 09:13:18 am Message-ID: > > I think the idea is to use a defunct C64 and use it as a keyboard for t= > he emulator. > > That's why you use an el-cheapo keyboard and pull the board from it, and=20 > hook up your own matrix... The problem with doing that is that the C64's keys are already wired in a matrix, and you can bet it won't be the same as the one for the keyboard you raid the controller from. And, assuming you want the letters to appear in the conventional locations, etc, you then either have to do a lot of cut-n-jumper on the C64's keyboard PCB, or reprogram the controller chip. The latter would seem to be more work than programming a microcontroller from scratch (particularly since the code is availalbe -- right?), even assuming it's possible (e.g. the controller might be mask programmed or OTP). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 23 16:28:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 22:28:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: CompuPro floppy controller differences In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 23, 6 10:10:35 am Message-ID: > Hi > A friend has an older Celestron telescope with an AC clock drive. > We took one of those 12v to AC converters and added a couple pots > and switches to vary the frequency for tracking the telescope while > doing photo work. The converter used simple 555 circuits to control > the frequency so it was relatively easy to modify. As a somewhat-related aside, IIRC there's a circuit in at least one edition of tAoE to produce a not-quite-60Hz sine wave at 115V. Used to drive a synchronous clock motor and get it to display sideral (rather than mean solar) time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 23 16:44:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 22:44:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting started with HP9000/200 series machines Message-ID: I seem to be getting interested in HP9000/200 stuff.... So far I've got (IIRC) : HP9816 with the compact keyboard. This has 768K RAM (256K on the CPU board, 2 off 256K RAM boards, one in each DIO slot). HP9817 + HP-HIL keyboard and monitor. 2M RAM (2 off 1M RAM cards), text and graphics video boards. And therefore 2 empty DIO slots, both with external access [1] [1] These machines have expansion slots called 'DIO'. Some cards have brackets with connectors on them, for example an RS232 board. The spacing of the slots in the backplane is half the height of the connector bracket, so such cards go in every alternate slot. The intermediate slots can be used for RAM cards, the DMA controller, and so on. The video card in the 9817 takes a pair of slots, the text card has a bracked with aBNC connector fro video output, the graphics card fits in the slot immediately above it, and carries a ribbon cable that links to the text card. HP9836A. This one is hard to get to at the moment, so I am working from memory. I think it has 1M RAM (4 off 256K cards), and therefore 4 avaialbe DIO slots, all with external access. I have the monitor, and of course it has 2 built-in 5.25" floppy drives. Assorted DIO cards. The useful ones are a couple of GPIOs, a low-speed HPIB DMA controller,, and an RS232 card. The last will almost certainly end up in the 9836, which doesn't have RS232 as standard (my other 2 machines do). As regards drives, I have a 9122 with the normal grease problem (hut the heads are OK). I can probably find a few 9121a, a 9133H, and a 9154, if they're going to be useful. I also have HP BASIC 5.0 and 5.1 on original 3.5" disks. I'll prboably use these machines (as far as I use them at all) in much the way HP intended -- as control/logging systems. Questions : 1) What softwware do people recomend? HP BASIC looks reasonable, actually, it does at least support named procedures with formal parameters. Anything else reocmended? 2) How much RAM do I reasonably need. If I pulled one of the 256K cards from the 9816 so I could add a DIO I/O card, would the machine still be useful? 3) I've been reading the 9836 service manual [2]. I makes reference to the 'Developer's Documentation' or some such, which apparently contains information for people who want to design DIO cards and/or port OS's to the machines. Does anyone have this (it's not on bitsavers or the Australian museum that I can see). It certainly sounds like something I should read if I can. 4) Anything elase I need, or should keep an active lookout for? [2] Yes, it's a boardswapper guide. No, I don't approve of boardswapping. But that doesn't mean I don't read the manuals. There are some useful points in it. -tony From bpope at wordstock.com Sat Sep 23 18:30:58 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0609231007j42977886q1ae0e483ef05643a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060923233058.4749F57F29@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Joachim Thiemann > > Of course, this runs dangerously into the direction of a "why use an > emulator if you have the real thing" kind of debate... :-) > It just give you options! :) Cheers, Bryan From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Sep 23 19:44:31 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 20:44:31 -0400 Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. References: Message-ID: <001e01c6df72$d19c6030$0100a8c0@screamer> I've just come across a new vintage system. I've been given a Heathkit H-89 computer with some documentation and one bootable diskette. Its booting HDOS, but I don't have any HDOS specific documentation, just the 'Operation' and assembly manuals (the 'Operation' manual is really theory of operation material). Does anyone have the ability to make a set of 'distribution' HDOS disks (100K floppy)? Is CP/M also available, or the Heathkit diagnostics disk? I've not been able to find much HDOS documentation on-line, does anyone have pointers? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 23 19:58:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:58:49 -0700 Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. In-Reply-To: <001e01c6df72$d19c6030$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <001e01c6df72$d19c6030$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200609231758490954.0747C770@10.0.0.252> On 9/23/2006 at 8:44 PM Bob Shannon wrote: >Is CP/M also available, or the Heathkit diagnostics disk? Magnolia CP/M was definitely available for the H89. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 23 21:30:39 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <200609231717.35079.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609231702.50587.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060923140744.Y65348@shell.lmi.net> <200609231717.35079.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060923192332.O79445@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 Sep 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > If folks want to send me model numbers, I'll put a web page together, > > > how's that? > > aren't there already some such pages? > Beats me. If you know of some feel free to post links. To start you off: SS 48tpi: Shugart SA400 Micropolis MPI B51 Tandon TM100-1 "360K" (48TPI DS): Tandon TM100-2 Matsushita (Shugart, Panasonic, etc.) 455 Teac 55B Qumetrak 142 100TPI DSDD: Micropolis II Tandon TM100-4M "720K" (96tpi DSDD) Tandon TM100-4 Matsushita (Shugart, Panasonic, etc.) 465 Mitsubishi 4853 Teac 55F "1.2M" (96tpi DS'HD') Matsushita 475 Mitsubishi 4854 Teac 55G From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 23 22:26:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 20:26:07 -0700 Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <20060923192332.O79445@shell.lmi.net> References: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609231702.50587.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060923140744.Y65348@shell.lmi.net> <200609231717.35079.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060923192332.O79445@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200609232026070946.07CEA248@10.0.0.252> Since we're talking 5.25" HH drives, here's a few more. 720K: YE Data YD-380 360K: Toshiba ND-0401 MPI 9428 1.2MB Fujitsu M2551 I've got some FH 5.25" 100tpi drives from MPI, but all of the stickers have dried out and fallen off, so I haven't the faintest as to what the model number is. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 23 20:29:45 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:29:45 -0400 Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. Message-ID: <0J62001ICPFQQV92@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. > From: "Bob Shannon" > Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 20:44:31 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I've just come across a new vintage system. > >I've been given a Heathkit H-89 computer with some documentation and one >bootable diskette. > >Its booting HDOS, but I don't have any HDOS specific documentation, just the >'Operation' and >assembly manuals (the 'Operation' manual is really theory of operation >material). > >Does anyone have the ability to make a set of 'distribution' HDOS disks >(100K floppy)? > >Is CP/M also available, or the Heathkit diagnostics disk? > >I've not been able to find much HDOS documentation on-line, does anyone have >pointers? CP/M was available. One thing, which disk controller does it have? If memory serves there were several different ones between heath and aftermarket. Allison > From rcini at optonline.net Sun Sep 24 07:08:25 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:08:25 -0400 Subject: Commodore keyboards and PCs In-Reply-To: <20060923233058.4749F57F29@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <00a001c6dfd2$238a4bf0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> You know, not to get into this debate really, but I have to say that I'm loving emulation...and I'm not just saying that because I maintain an emulation project. I can sit in my home office, which is in another part of the house from my shop (where all of my gear is) and play a quick game on the Mac using Basilisk or vMac or A2Oasis. I use emulators for Commodore, Apple, Nintendo, and Atari. So, it does indeed give you options, and saves you some walking in the process. The only complaint I have in general is the keyboard mapping for special keys and remembering them all. Maybe a Jim-Brain-type adapter is available for the Apple II and Apple ADB keyboards...I dunno. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Pope Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:31 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Commodore keyboards and PCs And thusly were the wise words spake by Joachim Thiemann > > Of course, this runs dangerously into the direction of a "why use an > emulator if you have the real thing" kind of debate... :-) > It just give you options! :) Cheers, Bryan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 24 08:43:06 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:43:06 -0400 Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive Message-ID: <0J630018TNDSBT37@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 360kB HH Floppy Drive > From: "Charles E. Fox" > Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 16:33:21 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Is there any easy way of telling a 360 K from a 1.2 Meg? I >have a bunch of 5 1/4 drives. > > Charlie Fox Yes. The model numbers on the drive. 360k drives are 40 track, 2 sided 48tpi. Here are a few... For Teac: FD55A Full height FD55B 48tpi 40 track two sided FD55c ???? FD55D ???? FD55E 96tpi 80 track single sided. FD55F 96tpi 80 track two sided FD55G 96tpi 80 track two sided dual speed Fujitsu 2851A 40 track 2 sided Toshiba 5425 40 track 2 sided Shugart SA400 35 track 1 side full height SA400L 40 track 1 side full height SA450 40 track 2 side full height Allison From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 24 09:53:16 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 07:53:16 -0700 Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. In-Reply-To: <001e01c6df72$d19c6030$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: Hi Bob There is a group at www.sebhc.org that you should joint. They have a reasonable collection of software. They use a image transfer tool that I wrote. You won't find much on manuals. There is someone that bought the copyright to all of the HeathKit stuff and watches it closely for infringment. Software is a different story, being that he was a Ham and mainly interested in manuals. It also sounds like you have a hard sectored drive( look at the disk for 11 index holes ). I've converted an old SA400 frame into a punch for hard sectored disk. One uses 360K disk. If you are interrested in borrowing, let me know. I have several manuals as well. I might be in your area today or sometime soon. Dwight >From: "Bob Shannon" > >I've just come across a new vintage system. > >I've been given a Heathkit H-89 computer with some documentation and one >bootable diskette. > >Its booting HDOS, but I don't have any HDOS specific documentation, just >the 'Operation' and >assembly manuals (the 'Operation' manual is really theory of operation >material). > >Does anyone have the ability to make a set of 'distribution' HDOS disks >(100K floppy)? > >Is CP/M also available, or the Heathkit diagnostics disk? > >I've not been able to find much HDOS documentation on-line, does anyone >have pointers? > > From g-wright at att.net Sun Sep 24 12:39:09 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 17:39:09 +0000 Subject: Data General Nova 3 manuals needed Message-ID: <092420061739.5544.4516C2BC0009A8FD000015A821604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I have a Nova 3 that I would like to get to know a little better. I do not have any manuals and a quick search came up with a dead end. Info on testing and how to interface to the console port ?? (external term). Is it TTY or RS232 and of coarse which pins or ??? Bruce are you out there ???? ;-) Below is the card lay out Thanks, Jerry Function MFG No. EK No. -12 Transport 4190/4041/4044 063-130 -11 FMDET 4190/4041/4042/4044 063-147 -10 <- B side oneida, Vanes A side -> MBD 4042 063-131 -09 -08 Disk Cartridge Controller DG 6030 -07 -06 -05 Mos Memory DG 8543 -04 Cassette I/O DG 4075 4077 4078 4079 -03 Mos Memory DG 8543 -02 Nova 3 Triple options bd. DG 8553/8531/8535 -01 Nova 3 CPU DG 8530/8531 W/ARST. APL From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Sep 24 12:49:33 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:49:33 -0500 Subject: Heathkit H89 In-Reply-To: <200609241700.k8OH0OAq029922@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c6e001$cb91d8c0$176fa8c0@obie> > Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 20:44:31 -0400 > From: "Bob Shannon" > Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <001e01c6df72$d19c6030$0100a8c0 at screamer> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > I've just come across a new vintage system. > > I've been given a Heathkit H-89 computer with some > documentation and one > bootable diskette. > > Its booting HDOS, but I don't have any HDOS specific > documentation, just the > 'Operation' and > assembly manuals (the 'Operation' manual is really theory of > operation > material). > > Does anyone have the ability to make a set of 'distribution' > HDOS disks > (100K floppy)? > > Is CP/M also available, or the Heathkit diagnostics disk? > > I've not been able to find much HDOS documentation on-line, > does anyone have > pointers? > > Come on by and visit us at www.sebhc.org , a site dedicated to the Heathkit 8-bit computers (mostly H8 and H89, but the 680x trainers as well). We have extensive online archives with docs and software. Also, be sure to take a look at Eric Rothfus' SVD ( www.thesvd.com/SVD ) which includes HDOS and CP/M boot images ready to plug and ply on the H89. Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 From Mzthompson at aol.com Sun Sep 24 14:05:53 2006 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:05:53 EDT Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive Message-ID: Try the following link: http://marina.mfarris.com/theref/theref.html Text from the search engine: > TheRef(tm) is also available in file form. The latest version is 4.5a, > released on 6 May 1996, which is a partial update to the last full > version, 4.3. ... Has info on FDD, HD and optical drives. As it says above "available in file form", but I did't look for it when I was there just now. If it is not available anymore in file form, I have the files from downloading them back in 1997. Mike From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Sep 24 14:40:28 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:40:28 +0200 Subject: Data General Nova 3 manuals needed References: <092420061739.5544.4516C2BC0009A8FD000015A821604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20324@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens g-wright at att.net Verzonden: zo 24-09-2006 19:39 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Data General Nova 3 manuals needed >Hi, > >I have a Nova 3 that I would like to get to know a little better. >I do not have any manuals and a quick search came up with >a dead end. >Info on testing and how to interface to the console port ?? >(external term). Is it TTY or RS232 and of coarse which >pins or ??? < >Bruce are you out there ???? ;-) > >Below is the card lay out > >Thanks, Jerry > > > Function MFG No. EK No. > >-12 Transport 4190/4041/4044 063-130 >-11 FMDET 4190/4041/4042/4044 063-147 >-10 <- B side oneida, Vanes A side -> MBD 4042 063-131 >-09 >-08 Disk Cartridge Controller DG 6030 >-07 >-06 >-05 Mos Memory DG 8543 >-04 Cassette I/O DG 4075 4077 4078 4079 >-03 Mos Memory DG 8543 >-02 Nova 3 Triple options bd. DG 8553/8531/8535 >-01 Nova 3 CPU DG 8530/8531 W/ARST. APL > Hi Jerry, I picked up a Nova 3 with 8" diskette and (rmovable/fixed) hard dsk almost a year ago, and there was some documentation with it. Also a CRT and keyboard and a printer. I will look at the "names". the CRT is a D200/100, and the separate keyboard has a few keys stuck :( the printer is probably a Dasher 2 without keyboard, printer only. I have not looked at the doc, neither what's available on bitsavers. I know my Nova 3 is very dirty inside, and just like you Jerry, I know nothing about these beasties. My system is housed in the ~160 cm high cabinet. I have been told that DG uses some sort of protocol between the system and the console or printer, and that a simple VT220 is not the best option ... Me too, I would like to hear *lots* more about this system! Is there somebody that knows the details about the "dark page" in history from DIGITAL, when some employees left DEC to found Data General? Love to hear that! - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Sep 24 14:51:14 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:51:14 -0400 Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. References: <0J62001ICPFQQV92@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <003601c6e012$cc059970$0100a8c0@screamer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:29 PM Subject: Re: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. > CP/M was available. One thing, which disk controller does it have? If > memory serves there were several different ones between heath and > aftermarket. > > > > Allison I'll have to check the machine tomorrow. I did look at the media, its a standard 5.25 inch floppy with a single index hole. I'd expected a hard-sectored diskette, but that's not what its booting from. I have only a single bootable disk, and its visibly worn on several tracks. I've yet to bring the machine home and clean it, etc. I was hoping someone might be able to supply the diagnostics, etc on live media. Being (apparently) a soft-sectored machine, I gather I cannot use the SVD option? From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Sep 24 14:54:27 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:54:27 -0400 Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. References: Message-ID: <003a01c6e013$3ee67950$0100a8c0@screamer> Sorry I missed your reply until now... I was showing a plane I have for sale (have to pay for my new Lotus!). The one bootable disk I have appears to be soft-sectored. How can I get O/S software for a soft-sectored H89? Can you still buy 360K media? ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:53 AM Subject: RE: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. > > Hi Bob > There is a group at www.sebhc.org that you should joint. They have a > reasonable collection of software. They use a image transfer tool that I > wrote. > You won't find much on manuals. There is someone that bought the copyright > to all of the HeathKit stuff and watches it closely for infringment. > Software is a different story, being that he was a Ham and mainly > interested > in manuals. > It also sounds like you have a hard sectored drive( look at the disk for > 11 > index holes ). I've converted an old SA400 frame into a punch for hard > sectored > disk. One uses 360K disk. If you are interrested in borrowing, let me > know. > I have several manuals as well. > I might be in your area today or sometime soon. > Dwight > >>From: "Bob Shannon" >> >>I've just come across a new vintage system. >> >>I've been given a Heathkit H-89 computer with some documentation and one >>bootable diskette. >> >>Its booting HDOS, but I don't have any HDOS specific documentation, just >>the 'Operation' and >>assembly manuals (the 'Operation' manual is really theory of operation >>material). >> >>Does anyone have the ability to make a set of 'distribution' HDOS disks >>(100K floppy)? >> >>Is CP/M also available, or the Heathkit diagnostics disk? >> >>I've not been able to find much HDOS documentation on-line, does anyone >>have pointers? >> >> > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 24 17:20:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:20:42 -0700 Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. In-Reply-To: <003601c6e012$cc059970$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <0J62001ICPFQQV92@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <003601c6e012$cc059970$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200609241520420520.0BDD6079@10.0.0.252> on 9/24/2006 at 3:51 PM Bob Shannon wrote: >I'll have to check the machine tomorrow. I did look at the media, its a >standard 5.25 inch floppy with a single index hole. I'd expected a hard-sectored >diskette, but that's not what its booting from. I show several formats for the H89/Z89. SS, DS 512x9x1x40 512x9x2x40 and 2 512x9x80--but the first 96 tpi one is odd--it uses only the first 40 cylinders! Probably 48 tpi software running with 96 tpi drives. If no one can come up with a clean CP/M system disk, I've got some H89 sample system disks in my files of uncertain vintage. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 24 17:15:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:15:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. In-Reply-To: <001e01c6df72$d19c6030$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 23, 6 08:44:31 pm Message-ID: > > I've just come across a new vintage system. > > I've been given a Heathkit H-89 computer with some documentation and one > bootable diskette. Nice. I haev a Z90, which is essentially the same machine, except that it came pre-assembled (and with a 'Zenith' nameplate) and came with 64K as standard. > > Its booting HDOS, but I don't have any HDOS specific documentation, just the > 'Operation' and > assembly manuals (the 'Operation' manual is really theory of operation > material). I hope you have the 3 large schematics sheets that go with it. Sheet 1 is the video monitor section, sheet 2 the terminal logic, and sheet 3 the CPU board. The machine is really a serial termainal (H19/Z19) communicating by an RS232 link to a computer in the same case. The display is not memory mapped in the address space of the processor that runs your programs. > > Does anyone have the ability to make a set of 'distribution' HDOS disks > (100K floppy)? The first thing to determine is which disk controller(s) you have. There's at least a hard-sectored one and a double-density soft sectored one (I have both in my Z90), I believe there are others too. Needless to say you need the OS disk appropraite for your controller. Is the disk you have hard or soft sectored? > > Is CP/M also available, or the Heathkit diagnostics disk? THere is CP/M, I think I have it somewhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 24 17:19:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:19:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. In-Reply-To: <003601c6e012$cc059970$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 24, 6 03:51:14 pm Message-ID: > I'll have to check the machine tomorrow. I did look at the media, its a > standard 5.25 > inch floppy with a single index hole. I'd expected a hard-sectored > diskette, but that's > not what its booting from. There certainly are soft-sectored controllers for this machine. One hint when dismantling it. After removing the top cover (spring latches on the sides, frob them with a screwdriver), take out the floppy drive. It's easy to do, and it gets in the way of just about everything else. -tony From walkerpa at ihug.co.nz Sun Sep 24 17:48:56 2006 From: walkerpa at ihug.co.nz (Anna & Peter Walker) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:48:56 +1200 Subject: Getting started with HP9000/200 In-Reply-To: <200609241700.k8OH0OB0029922@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001001c6e02b$9dccd460$0201010a@phatboy> Hi Tony > 1) What softwware do people recomend? HP BASIC looks reasonable, > actually, it does at least support named procedures with formal > parameters. Anything else reocmended? HP BASIC is quick to put together and powerful. The documentation is good and available (as you've seen, or got). I think the documentation was one of HP's strong points with these machines. HP Pascal gives you the speed, but you'll definitely need more memory ... > 2) How much RAM do I reasonably need. If I pulled one of the 256K cards > from the 9816 so I could add a DIO I/O card, would the machine still be > useful? My programming career started with HP9816s' with only the 256K on-board RAM; that was using Basic 2 originally, then Basic 3. And we got by - the company didn't want to spend any more than it had too! That was in civil engineering & construction where we were able to put together costing, critical path planning, and some envelope & pre-stress design software. Whilst it is certainly constraining, so you'll probably be ok with one add-on RAM card for a lot of things. Later on, I got involved with a land surveying package, which besides being able to do a multitude of cadastral calculations, included a fairly comprehensive CAD facility. That definitely needed more RAM, and was standardised with a 1MB add-on card. For all above software, the only IO we did was RS232 for HPGL plotting, so only needed the built-in port. > 3) I've been reading the 9836 service manual [2]. I makes reference to > the 'Developer's Documentation' or some such, which apparently contains > information for people who want to design DIO cards and/or port OS's to > the machines. Does anyone have this (it's not on bitsavers or the > Australian museum that I can see). It certainly sounds like something I > should read if I can. Haven't seen or heard of this. > 4) Anything elase I need, or should keep an active lookout for? Probably 913x/915x spare hard drives, unless you're able to get the drives at http://www.bering.com/main.htm Regards, Peter Walker --HP9000/200 tinkerer, and still looking for Pascal 3.1! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 22-09-2006 From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Sep 24 18:21:50 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 00:21:50 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: <450AE4FB.2040307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4509B925.1010908@gjcp.net> <450AE4FB.2040307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 9/15/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > Simon Fryer wrote: > > All, > > > > I am interested in a couple of the items, but there is no way I can > > collect/store/process this. I have an estate car and am willing to > > drive up from Swindon, but my the people I live with are not so > > understanding about old computers. > > If you do happen to go up there, it's perhaps worth rescuing the Tek > hard-sectored disks for the museum; that's assuming that nobody has a more > pressing need for them (and their contents!), of course - I just wouldn't want > to see them go to landfill. > > Small hard disks (particularly SCSI rather than IDE) are also worth rescuing > if nobody else wants them. > > Oh, I believe we're short a few Sun type 4 keyboards for all of our Sun kit > (assuming the ten that were listed don't belong with the machines that were > also listed :-) > > The UPS would be darn handy for the couple of new servers that have been put > into action recently... Hi Jules, Coincidentally enough, I'm going to be coming to Oxford next month down the M1, and I'm sure I could make a detour to Bletchley to drop this stuff off to you (as long as there was someone around to take delivery of it). Sure you don't want any more gear as well? Clump of VAXen? ;) Ta, Ed. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 24 19:05:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 01:05:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting started with HP9000/200 In-Reply-To: <001001c6e02b$9dccd460$0201010a@phatboy> from "Anna & Peter Walker" at Sep 25, 6 10:48:56 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony > > > 1) What softwware do people recomend? HP BASIC looks reasonable, > > actually, it does at least support named procedures with formal > > parameters. Anything else reocmended? > > HP BASIC is quick to put together and powerful. The documentation is good It certainly looks to be a good version of BASIC. > and available (as you've seen, or got). I think the documentation was one of > HP's strong points with these machines. Well, the hardware docuemtnation of the machines themselves is not to my liking, but the docs I've seen on the DIO cards is good. And the programming manuals are certainly clear and seem to be complete. HP used to produce excellent documentation, that much is certain. > HP Pascal gives you the speed, but you'll definitely need more memory ... How much memory? My 9817 has 2 megabytes. > > > 2) How much RAM do I reasonably need. If I pulled one of the 256K cards > > from the 9816 so I could add a DIO I/O card, would the machine still be > > useful? > > My programming career started with HP9816s' with only the 256K on-board RAM; > that was using Basic 2 originally, then Basic 3. And we got by - the > company didn't want to spend any more than it had too! That was in civil > engineering & construction where we were able to put together costing, > critical path planning, and some envelope & pre-stress design software. > Whilst it is certainly constraining, so you'll probably be ok with one > add-on RAM card for a lot of things. Later on, I got involved with a land > surveying package, which besides being able to do a multitude of cadastral > calculations, included a fairly comprehensive CAD facility. That definitely > needed more RAM, and was standardised with a 1MB add-on card. For all above > software, the only IO we did was RS232 for HPGL plotting, so only needed the > built-in port. I'm likely to be doing a lot of interfacing and not that much processing if you see what I mean. I susepct 512K would be enough for that. I can certainly give it a go. > > 4) Anything elase I need, or should keep an active lookout for? > > Probably 913x/915x spare hard drives, unless you're able to get the drives > at http://www.bering.com/main.htm I am going to have to see if a 9133 can low-level format a drive -- the actual machanism is a standard unit (ST225 or something like that). I am told it can, and I do have the command set somewhere, so it might be worth experimenting. Of course the drive unit in the 9154 is very much HP custom, with a _strange_ interface (parallel 8 bit data bus for head positioning/control, and then the raw data lines for read/write). So no real chance of using something else there. How useful is a hard drive? I know the previous owner of my 9817 ran it from a 9122 floppy drive only. -tony From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 24 20:08:06 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:08:06 -0400 Subject: RX02 drives / RT11 In-Reply-To: <450F4DA2.1050104@the-planet.org> References: <450F4DA2.1050104@the-planet.org> Message-ID: <45172BF6.2040301@compsys.to> >Gary E Kaufman wrote: > I'm relearning RT-11 on an 11/23 I was kindly given (thanks David!). Jerome Fine replies: If you have any other questions about RT-11, please ask. Are you using V05.0x of RT-11 or V04.00 of RT-11? Both will work well, but the utilities in V05.0x are a bit improved. > I'm having trouble with the RX02 drives. I can boot RT11, and .format > DY1: I strongly suggest that you make a backup copy of DY0: COPY/DEVICE DY0: DY1: then DIFF/BIN/DEV DY0: DY1: > About 1/3rd of the time I get an error while formatting, this is on > known good 8" SS/DD media that has been extensively tested on a CP/M > system in both SD and DD modes. It is possible that DY1: is slightly out of alignment of dirt on the heads. I suggest that you use the backup copy of the RT-11 boot floppy and BOOT DY1: then FORMAT DY0: using a blank floppy and ... > On media which does format fine, I get gobs of bad blocks using > .initialize/badblocks DY1: test the floppy on DY0: using INIT/BAD DY0: instead of DY1: and see if there is a better result. > The only media that seems to work fine is "real" RX02 media. There are no "real" RX02 media - as has been explained by others. The RX02 media are ONLY an RX01 with the header being set to double density and the data area then being used at the higher density. > Is the RX02 incapable of formatting it's own media? Is there a common > hardware problem that I should look for? Filter caps? Clean the > stepper motor? As explained by others, a DEC RX02 floppy drive is NOT able to perform a RAW LLF (Low Level Format) of an 8" floppy. That was a decision by DEC to attempt to force DEC RX02 users to purchase 8" floppy media from DEC at prices which were many times higher. All 3rd party RX02 compatible drives which I ever used (such as DSD or Data System Design) had the ability to do an LLF of 8" floppy media. Or a Tony Duell suggested, first do the LLF as an RX01 on a non-DEC system, then change the media to double-density with the RT-11 command: FORMAT DY1: on the DEC RX02 floppy drive. As for other hardware problems, I am only a software person. My idea of fixing a hardware problem is the swap hardware. Tony would not approve, but I don't have the hardware background not the inclination to learn - I am too busy running a Prime number sieve program looking for Prime numbers. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 24 20:09:06 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:09:06 -0400 Subject: Bet you didn't know...(PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <4510EA0E.8060201@softjar.se> References: <200609200631.k8K6RVYM077874@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4510EA0E.8060201@softjar.se> Message-ID: <45172C32.3080409@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > Well, you can maybe still buy Quckware PDP-11 boards, so there are > still new PDP-11 systems shipped. http://www.quickware.com/ Jerome Fine replies: Any idea how much these boards cost and what the speed ratio is vs the PDP-11/93? I had heard that QED was getting speeds of 6 times the PDP-11/93, but that was many years ago. Of course, a Pentium 4 running E11 can now achieve between 50 to 100 times a PDP-11/93. Plus each emulated disk drive can be many GigiBytes with I/O speeds also of 50 to 100 times any "real" DEC drives. Currently I am still using a 750 MHz Pentium 3 with 80 GigiByte ATA 100 hard disk drives. Under W98 SE and FAT32, a 2 GigiByte file can be used under RT-11 (or RSX-11). I can read/write all 32 MegaBytes of an RT-11 partition in a few seconds. Since the system has 768 MegBytes of RAM, the system caches the emulated drive and after the first access, reads/writes are from memory. So I can understand why Mentec now sells only emulators. In addition, E11 even supports a BCI adapter for commercial users which allows a real DEC Qbus to be used when non-standard hardware is still needed. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 24 22:46:57 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need docs for intel 80c186/80c188 evaluation board Message-ID: <20060925034657.25575.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> moochiss grassyass amigos __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 00:41:20 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:41:20 -0700 Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. In-Reply-To: <003a01c6e013$3ee67950$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: Hi Bob As for being in your area, I was think you were Bob Rosenbloom :( Still, it sounds like you do have a softsectored machine if it only has one hole. Has this disk been confirmed to boot the machine or is it just a disk that someone said booted the machine? There were soft sectored cards but these were uncommon. The hard sectored drives used a USRT on the controller card. The soft sectored used a regular disk controller. The ones in the H8's used a Z80 but I don't think this was the way it was done on the H89. I've been looking for a softsectored card but not found one. 360K media comes up all the time on Ebay. I've seen boxes of over 100, new, go for around 10 cents each. If you have a PC that can run DOS and can mount a 360K disk drive, you should be able to transfer soft sectored images using one of the disk tools out there. The SEBHC has some soft sectored suff in its library but I'm not sure of the format or tool used. As for CP/M, the machine needed a special logic array chip to do true CP/M. This is because it had a boot ROM at address zero. There is information on this logic chip someplace on the web but I don't recall where. There was a version that didn't boot at the normal address but I've never heard of anyone using it. Several people in the SEBHC group run CP/M on their machines. I believe this is both soft and hard sectored. Also, the machine normally came with 48K. In order to get to the full 64K, there was an add-on card that plugged into the expansion bus but needed an additional wire between the card and mother board to get the full 64K. You should subscribe to SEBHC and ask there. There are a couple people on that group that were involved in the original H89 hardware and software. I only run HDOS applications on my machine and I've not tried to convert it for CP/M. I have an IMSAI with CP/M 2.2 on it and that is generally sufficient ( except of course, CP/M 8000 on my Olivetti M20 ). Dwight >From: "Bob Shannon" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. >Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:54:27 -0400 > >Sorry I missed your reply until now... > >I was showing a plane I have for sale (have to pay for my new Lotus!). > >The one bootable disk I have appears to be soft-sectored. > >How can I get O/S software for a soft-sectored H89? > >Can you still buy 360K media? > >----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:53 AM >Subject: RE: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. > > >> >>Hi Bob >>There is a group at www.sebhc.org that you should joint. They have a >>reasonable collection of software. They use a image transfer tool that I >>wrote. >>You won't find much on manuals. There is someone that bought the copyright >>to all of the HeathKit stuff and watches it closely for infringment. >>Software is a different story, being that he was a Ham and mainly >>interested >>in manuals. >>It also sounds like you have a hard sectored drive( look at the disk for >>11 >>index holes ). I've converted an old SA400 frame into a punch for hard >>sectored >>disk. One uses 360K disk. If you are interrested in borrowing, let me >>know. >>I have several manuals as well. >>I might be in your area today or sometime soon. >>Dwight >> >>>From: "Bob Shannon" >>> >>>I've just come across a new vintage system. >>> >>>I've been given a Heathkit H-89 computer with some documentation and one >>>bootable diskette. >>> >>>Its booting HDOS, but I don't have any HDOS specific documentation, just >>>the 'Operation' and >>>assembly manuals (the 'Operation' manual is really theory of operation >>>material). >>> >>>Does anyone have the ability to make a set of 'distribution' HDOS disks >>>(100K floppy)? >>> >>>Is CP/M also available, or the Heathkit diagnostics disk? >>> >>>I've not been able to find much HDOS documentation on-line, does anyone >>>have pointers? >>> >>> >> >> >> > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 00:48:33 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:48:33 -0700 Subject: need docs for intel 80c186/80c188 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <20060925034657.25575.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Chris M > >moochiss grassyass amigos > Hi Chris What are the letters after the 186 or 188 on your chip. Depending on the board, I have some AMD stuff that might work but it is tied into flash memory on the AMD board. I also have a Forth that I implemented on a C186 that might also work. Do remember that there are several versions of these chips with different registers for hardware configurations. The suffex letters are important to know which you have. Dwight From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 25 10:57:51 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 11:57:51 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [clue-tech] OT: Old equipment to give away / donate Message-ID: <200609251157.51748.rtellason@verizon.net> Found on another list... ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [clue-tech] OT: Old equipment to give away / donate Date: Sunday 24 September 2006 03:19 pm From: "Chris N. Brown" To: "CLUE tech" Sorry for the off-topic posting. I've got some old Sun and Intel-based equipment that I'd like to get rid of. I'm not sure if they are of value to anyone (if so, email me and I'll let you know what I've got) but I was wondering if anyone had any ideas or information on places to dispose of it all. Things range from a Sun 17" monitor to misc peripherals to towers. I'm planning to put an ad up on, say, craigslist saying "if you want them come get them" but on the chance that no one does, was looking for some pointers on proper disposal. (recycling, donation, give 'em to Goodwill, etc). Cheers, Chris _______________________________________________ clue-tech mailing list clue-tech at cluedenver.org http://www.cluedenver.org/mailman/listinfo/clue-tech ------------------------------------------------------- -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gkaufman at the-planet.org Mon Sep 25 12:55:45 2006 From: gkaufman at the-planet.org (Gary E Kaufman) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:55:45 -0400 Subject: RX02 Problem solved... Message-ID: <45181821.4020008@the-planet.org> Thanks to tremendous help from several folks I've isolated my formatting problem. Turns out to be a hardware issue with the DY1: drive. I've tried cleaning heads etc. The read/write boards are fine ( I swapped them with my Decmate I to check). So now I need a single drive for an RX02. Any idea's of a source? Many thanks! - Gary From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 25 15:46:19 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:46:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Dymo Labelwriter 330 Turbo (data) Message-ID: <200609252046.k8PKkJbl049815@keith.ezwind.net> Hi folks, I was wondering if anyone has any data on the Dymo Labelwriter 330 Turbo? I would like to use it with my Amiga 600, but alas Dymo haven't made a driver for it! I tried writing to them attempting to get some technical documents on the printer with no luck. Has anyone attempted to write (or written) a driver for it for retro computers? Does anyone have one and (sorry!) a PC/laptop? I nee d some kind person to intercept and retrieve the data sent from the PC to the printer when printing a blank label and a completely black label, so I can compare the data between the two. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jhoger at gmail.com Mon Sep 25 16:00:54 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 14:00:54 -0700 Subject: Dymo Labelwriter 330 Turbo (data) In-Reply-To: <200609252046.k8PKkJbl049815@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609252046.k8PKkJbl049815@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 9/25/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I was wondering if anyone has any data on > the Dymo Labelwriter 330 Turbo? > I seem to recall downloading the command format from their website. Keep looking. Did you try downloading the SDK through the Developers tab? Maybe there's a document in there. If you can't find it you can always use a machine with two serial ports (serial protocol analyzer to snoop the traffic. HP serial protocol analyzers up to 19200bps units go pretty cheap on ebay these days if you want a stand-alone. This is not a task you can con someone else into doing if it ain't already done (well, you could pay them, I guess). It is a challenge that you will have to meet yourself if you cannot find documentation. -- John. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 25 16:43:13 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:43:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Dymo Labelwriter 330 Turbo (data) Message-ID: <200609252143.k8PLhDVL051216@keith.ezwind.net> --- "John R." wrote: > On 9/25/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > > > Hi folks, > > > > I was wondering if anyone has any data on > > the Dymo Labelwriter 330 Turbo? > > > > I seem to recall downloading the command format fr om > their website. > Keep looking. Did you try downloading the SDK > through the Developers > tab? Maybe there's a document in there. > > If you can't find it you can always use a machine > with two serial > ports (serial protocol analyzer to snoop the > traffic. HP serial > protocol analyzers up to 19200bps units go pretty > cheap on ebay these > days if you want a stand-alone. This is not a task > you can con someone > else into doing if it ain't already done (well, yo u > could pay them, I > guess). It is a challenge that you will have to me et > yourself if you > cannot find documentation. > > -- John. > Thanks for that, if no-one can help I'll look out for that piece of kit on eBay and get myself a laptop (I hate MS & Windoze) I did some research before buying myself the Labelwriter, and some guy (I forget his name) has written a driver for a modern printer so he could use it with his retro one. He used software to intercept the data being sent/recieved, rather than some equipment. I also hooked up the Labelwriter to my Amiga 600, and used AMOS BASIC to try and get it to print something by sending random data (perhaps a bad idea) to it with no luck. I did, however, confirm that the Amiga recognised that the printer was connected. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 25 16:28:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:28:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 24, 6 10:41:20 pm Message-ID: > There were soft sectored cards but these were uncommon. The But they do exist, there's one in my Z90. It's possible to have 2 disk controllers installed at the same time (with some restrictions). My Z90 has the hard sectored controller linked to the intenral drive, and a soft-sectored controller linked to a pair of external drives. > hard sectored drives used a USRT on the controller card. The soft > sectored used a regular disk controller. The ones in the H8's used Mine uses a WD1793 and the normal support circuitry. > a Z80 but I don't think this was the way it was done on the H89. No, there are only 2 Z80s in the case. One to run user programs, one as part od the 'H19 terminal' > As for CP/M, the machine needed a special logic array chip to do Wasn't this standard on the H89, etc? The chip is one of those fusible link PROMs I think. A couple of output ports are used to set whether the memory map is set up for HDOS or CP/M. I have dumps of the memory mapping PROMs (and for that matter the other PROMs in the machine) to hand, but you need the schematics if you intend modifying things. These ROM iamges came from my machine which certainly can run CP/M. -tony From walkerpa at ihug.co.nz Mon Sep 25 17:00:02 2006 From: walkerpa at ihug.co.nz (Anna & Peter Walker) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:00:02 +1200 Subject: Getting started with HP9000/200 In-Reply-To: <200609251701.k8PH0nUx042066@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000e01c6e0ed$f39447d0$0201010a@phatboy> Tony > How much memory? My 9817 has 2 megabytes. Should be ample. > Of course the drive unit in the 9154 is very much HP custom, with a > _strange_ interface (parallel 8 bit data bus for head > positioning/control, and then the raw data lines for read/write). So no > real chance of using something else there. > > How useful is a hard drive? I know the previous owner of my 9817 ran it > from a 9122 floppy drive only. Convenience, I suppose, to eliminate disk swapping / floppy drive wear / grease problem. My 9153 continues to function, and I am religious about cleaning the floppy drive. And using new or newish floppy disks. Regards, Peter -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/456 - Release Date: 25-09-2006 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 25 17:46:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:46:21 -0700 Subject: New find, Heathkit H89 computer. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609251546210149.111B3B3E@10.0.0.252> On 9/25/2006 at 10:28 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >But they do exist, there's one in my Z90. >It's possible to have 2 disk controllers installed at the same time (with >some restrictions). My Z90 has the hard sectored controller linked to the >intenral drive, and a soft-sectored controller linked to a pair of >external drives. Wasn't the soft-sectored drive option called H37 or some such? CHeers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 25 17:52:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 23:52:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting started with HP9000/200 In-Reply-To: <000e01c6e0ed$f39447d0$0201010a@phatboy> from "Anna & Peter Walker" at Sep 26, 6 10:00:02 am Message-ID: > > Tony > > > How much memory? My 9817 has 2 megabytes. > > Should be ample. OK, HP Pascal may be worth a try sometime. Is it related to any other Pascal (like, say, the UCSD P-system)? > Convenience, I suppose, to eliminate disk swapping / floppy drive wear / > grease problem. My 9153 continues to function, and I am religious about Right... Grease problems are a non-issue to me (I've repaired enough of said drives to be able to do them blindfolded (well, not literally, but you get the idea)). And floppy / floopy drive wear has to be balanced, I guess, agaisnt the possiblity of a headcrash on the hard drive... As regards convenience, if I can fit a BASIC configured the way I want (with the necessare I/O drivers) on one disk, and have a second disk for my programs, that should be quite useable. I can make backups/images of the disks on my PC of course. (I know I can read the distribution disks that way because I've done so). > cleaning the floppy drive. And using new or newish floppy disks. I must admit to nveer having had problesm with my HP floppy drives -- I use a 9114 all the time on my handhelds (640K is tons of storage for an HP41 :-)). -tony From jhoger at gmail.com Mon Sep 25 18:32:34 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:32:34 -0700 Subject: Dymo Labelwriter 330 Turbo (data) In-Reply-To: <200609252143.k8PLhDVL051216@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200609252143.k8PLhDVL051216@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 9/25/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Thanks for that, if no-one can help I'll look > out for that piece of kit on eBay and get > myself a laptop (I hate MS & Windoze) > > I did some research before buying myself the > Labelwriter, and some guy (I forget his name) > has written a driver for a modern printer > so he could use it with his retro one. > He used software to intercept the data being > sent/recieved, rather than some equipment. > > > I also hooked up the Labelwriter to my Amiga > 600, and used AMOS BASIC to try and get it > to print something by sending random data > (perhaps a bad idea) to it with no luck. > I did, however, confirm that the Amiga > recognised that the printer was connected. > > There are software serial protocol analyzers that just monitor the port. They are inferior to hardware protocol analyzers in that they may hide or distort relative timing of requests/responses and flow control signals. But they are certainly better than nothing, and may be sufficient. It is unlikely that you will be able to determine the protocol by sending random data. Sorry I can't be of more help. I have one of these label writers too... I just punted and hooked it up to Windows in a VMWare session rather than hooking it to Linux directly. I may be able to do some traces for you if you're really desperate and cannot get the equipment or documentation you need. I'm not sure if I have exactly the same device but it should be 90% the same (Dymo Command Language). -- John. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 25 18:50:06 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:50:06 -0500 Subject: 360kB HH Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <200609232026070946.07CEA248@10.0.0.252> References: <0J610059BRV0C3U1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609231702.50587.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060923140744.Y65348@shell.lmi.net> <200609231717.35079.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060923192332.O79445@shell.lmi.net> <200609232026070946.07CEA248@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <45186B2E.8030608@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Since we're talking 5.25" HH drives, here's a few more. > > 720K: > YE Data YD-380 > 360K: > Toshiba ND-0401 > MPI 9428 > 1.2MB > Fujitsu M2551 > > I've got some FH 5.25" 100tpi drives from MPI, but all of the stickers have > dried out and fallen off, so I haven't the faintest as to what the model > number is. I knew I had this bookmarked somewhere: http://marina.mfarris.com/index.html Very large database of floppy disk drives with disk size, form factor, and capacities. Also some hard drives and tape drives. Farris & Associates do media repairs, so I trust their data more than most. :) They also list some drive models and revisions I couldn't find elsewhere. Doc From useddec at gmail.com Mon Sep 25 20:54:10 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:54:10 -0500 Subject: pdp8's,11/05, 11/34, Documentation, etc Message-ID: <624966d60609251854l4ef035cdta470c0f096e549af@mail.gmail.com> I just picked up a ton of dec stuff including, 8's 11's, hardware, prints > and manuals. If you have any interest, please phone me or contact me off > list for details. Thanks, Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 25 14:30:32 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:30:32 -0400 Subject: RX02 Problem solved... Message-ID: <0J6500L6CY4DP6U7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RX02 Problem solved... > From: Gary E Kaufman > Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:55:45 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Thanks to tremendous help from several folks I've isolated my formatting >problem. > >Turns out to be a hardware issue with the DY1: drive. I've tried >cleaning heads etc. The read/write boards are fine ( I swapped them >with my Decmate I to check). > >So now I need a single drive for an RX02. Any idea's of a source? > >Many thanks! > >- Gary Yes and no. The Drives are same as RX01 and also same as those used in the PDT-11/150.. Before I'd run out and kill a RX. I'd try cleaning and relubing the leadscrew and making sure the head load pad is still there. I had one that once both were taken care of it was perfect. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 26 09:11:54 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:11:54 +0000 Subject: list stats Message-ID: <4519352A.8070004@yahoo.co.uk> Out of interest, are the stats for daily list traffic recorded anywhere? I've not seen any obviously missing messages, I just don't seem to be seeing much list traffic right now (since hopping the pond a couple of weeks back and using a different ISP) Although maybe this is in relation to the DoS attack on the classiccmp servers, and things still aren't 'quite right'... cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From dgreelish at mac.com Tue Sep 26 08:53:41 2006 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:53:41 -0400 Subject: New computer nostalgia/history/collecting podcast . . . In-Reply-To: <200609141700.k8EH06vs077385@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609141700.k8EH06vs077385@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <11728747.1159278821375.JavaMail.dgreelish@mac.com> Hello everyone, what I once did in the print form, I am now starting as a "radio" show. If you are not familiar with podcasting, it is essentially an mp3 talk-show (usually). This can be downloaded to your iPod or mp3 player, or simply listened to online from the below link. All that is needed is QuickTime. http://web.mac.com/tgreelish/iWeb/ClassicComputingPodcast/Classic%20Computing/Classic%20Computing.html I hope my work can be an enjoyable and useful addition to the hobby/community. Thanks, David Greelish The Classic Computing Podcast classiccomputing.com The Home of Computer History Nostalgia From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Sep 26 11:25:27 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:25:27 -0500 Subject: Resetting connectors (Was: Personal Iris IRIX issues..) In-Reply-To: <200609180030.k8I0Ug3w025983@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609180030.k8I0Ug3w025983@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 19:30 -0500 9/17/06, Jochen Kunz wrote: >Sometimes it helps this old hardware to be "kreidlered". I.e. >disassemble the whole machine, reaseat all PCBs and connectors and try >again. (Sometimes connectors get a litle bit of corrosion etc. that is >cleand out by un- and repluging the connector.) Thirded (1). I have a Mac Plus with Brainstorm accelerator (16 MHz 68000, plus SCSI chip upgrade). It has been giving me fits with intermittent operation for years. Tuning the 5V setting on the analog board *right up* against (but not over) the crowbar seemed to help, but it'd still reset periodically. Best diagnostic I have is (unfortunately) still a Radio Shack Archerkit analog VOM, which does not show momentary Voltage transients. Finally, this month, I was doing battle with it again, got the 5V setting tweaked up and the machine running face down, but then it failed when I set it back up on its feet. At long last, during the post-failure examination, I took loose and re-seated the power cable from the analog to digital board at the *analog board* end. I'd done this dozens of times at the *digital board* end - that's a lot less likely to take out the end of the CRT when my hand slips - but not at the analog board end. Machine has been running without problems since then. Wife is re-addicted to Dark Castle (and I have to put in a good word for Delta Tao on that score, they just sold me, at a discount, the original software! (2) ), kids getting addicted to Concertware + MIDI. Next project may be to find a MIDI interface for the thing and start learning more about digital music. (1) I'm curious about the etymology - where does the expression "kreidlered" come from? (2) Not affiliated, but if I had to choose one company in the field to hold up as wonderful, Delta Tao would be it. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 26 11:41:22 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:41:22 -0600 Subject: list stats In-Reply-To: <4519352A.8070004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4519352A.8070004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45195832.3060108@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Out of interest, are the stats for daily list traffic recorded anywhere? > I've not seen any obviously missing messages, I just don't seem to be > seeing much list traffic right now (since hopping the pond a couple of > weeks back and using a different ISP) > > Although maybe this is in relation to the DoS attack on the classiccmp > servers, and things still aren't 'quite right'... Just change the topic to something other than 'classic computers' and you'll get a lot of traffic. It is slow here. I notice that PC/SUN advertisments are getting a lot more popular. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 26 12:35:52 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:35:52 -0400 Subject: RX02 Problem solved... In-Reply-To: <0J6500L6CY4DP6U7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J6500L6CY4DP6U7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609261335.52527.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 25 September 2006 03:30 pm, Allison wrote: > Before I'd run out and kill a RX. I'd try cleaning and relubing the > leadscrew and making sure the head load pad is still there. > > I had one that once both were taken care of it was perfect. Speaking of head load pads, way back when I was still bumping into a lot of single-sided stuff I had one heck of a time tracking any of those down. I have *no* idea now, several decades later, where the heck I got 'em from. Are they available anyplace? And how critical are their characteristics, anyhow? Not that I have any particularl *need* for them right now, just wondering... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 26 12:41:09 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:41:09 -0400 Subject: SCSI cable needed Message-ID: <200609261341.09795.rtellason@verizon.net> I've been going through a whole mess of stuff trying to get a CD burner working here, one I have won't work at all, one won't open and close its drawer reliably, and what I finally got to work was an external unit, a Yamaha CRW4260tx. Not new, but hey, it works... The thing is, I've currently got it hooked up by having the cover off, using a 50-wire ribbon cable from the rear of the actual drive assembly to the internal connector of the Adaptec 2940 that's in the computer, which also has its cover off. I'd like to put the covers on again, particularly since someone mentioned in here that cooling is critical with those drives, but to do that I need the right cable. The person I got this stuff from gave me *all* of their SCSI stuff, they ssy. And included in that was a ribbon cable, but that's apparently for internal use as it has three connectors on it and they're all the same size. I do have the book for the burner handy, and the cable shown in there is round. And the connector on the burner (2 of them actually) is *smaller* than the external connector on the 2940, I don't know exactly what you'd call this one. Anybody have such a cable they'd be willing to part with? I don't have much cash to work with at all, but could probably cover postage, or maybe trade some stuff. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 26 12:43:48 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:43:48 -0400 Subject: RS DRAM chips? Message-ID: <200609261343.48149.rtellason@verizon.net> I have some chips here, I'm pretty sure they're DRAM, marked with both a Motorola logo and a "T/C" (Tandy Corp.?) logo, and with the part number 8040016 followed by what I'm pretty sure is a data code of QQ8301. Anybody know what these are, exactly? I have a bunch of them, and no particular use for them, if anybody needs some, though I'm curious as to what they are. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Sep 26 14:23:01 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:23:01 -0500 Subject: pdp8's,11/05, 11/34, Documentation, etc In-Reply-To: <624966d60609251854l4ef035cdta470c0f096e549af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c6e1a1$2eda4ac0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> What sort of stuff came with the /34? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 8:54 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: pdp8's,11/05, 11/34, Documentation, etc > > I just picked up a ton of dec stuff including, 8's 11's, > hardware, prints > > and manuals. If you have any interest, please phone me or > contact me > > off list for details. > > > > Thanks, Paul Anderson > 217-586-5361 > From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Sep 26 15:35:06 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:35:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Dymo Labelwriter 330 Turbo (data) In-Reply-To: References: <200609252143.k8PLhDVL051216@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, John R. wrote: > On 9/25/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > >> Thanks for that, if no-one can help I'll look >> out for that piece of kit on eBay and get >> myself a laptop (I hate MS & Windoze) >> >> I did some research before buying myself the >> Labelwriter, and some guy (I forget his name) >> has written a driver for a modern printer >> so he could use it with his retro one. >> He used software to intercept the data being >> sent/recieved, rather than some equipment. >> >> >> I also hooked up the Labelwriter to my Amiga >> 600, and used AMOS BASIC to try and get it >> to print something by sending random data >> (perhaps a bad idea) to it with no luck. >> I did, however, confirm that the Amiga >> recognised that the printer was connected. > > There are software serial protocol analyzers that just monitor the > port. They are inferior to hardware protocol analyzers in that they > may hide or distort relative timing of requests/responses and flow > control signals. But they are certainly better than nothing, and may > be sufficient. Yep, I wrote one a while ago to reverse-engineer a smartcard reader. Unfortunately the reader died before I could use my tool :-( I called the software serialdump, you can get it here: http://alexeyt.freeshell.org/code/serialdump.tgz The readme has instructions for making cabling: http://alexeyt.freeshell.org/code/serialdump.README Let me know if you need help with it. Alexey From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 26 15:40:57 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:40:57 -0500 Subject: another test Message-ID: <01a901c6e1ac$12423070$6700a8c0@BILLING> test2 - please ignore this. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 26 16:03:02 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 23:03:02 +0200 Subject: Resetting connectors (Was: Personal Iris IRIX issues..) In-Reply-To: References: <200609180030.k8I0Ug3w025983@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060926230302.1c829150@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:25:27 -0500 Mark Tapley wrote: > (1) I'm curious about the etymology - where does the expression > "kreidlered" come from? Once upon a time there was the legendary German brand "Kreidler" of motorcycles (mopeds). Kreidlers had the habit of faling for no reason. You dissassembled your Kreidler in the hope to find somthing broken that you could fix. Usually there was nothing broken to find. So you reassembled it again without any specific repair applied and the Kreidler worked again magicaly. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 16:41:45 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:41:45 +0100 Subject: Manchester "Baby" Message-ID: <11c909eb0609261441r5fcd198byb5b1e8e2eb4a62a0@mail.gmail.com> On 12/09/06, Andy Holt wrote: > > > What about Science & Industry museum in Manchester? They've got some > early > > Manchester Uni hardware, haven't they? > > > They may have (I believe they have the replica of "Baby"); but, as I > discovered on Friday, they have absolutely none of the computing history > on > normal public display - this is a disgrace! > > Andy Especially given the amount of spare exhibition space they seem to have in the big warehouse that backs onto Coronation St.(1). I didn't get enough time today to have a proper look but given the Manchester Uni/Ferranti/ICL connection you'd think they could put something together. However, the replica "baby" can be seen every Tuesday, respect is due to the volunteers running the demo, they're ex Ferranti and ICL and know their stuff. It's definitely worth a visit, but be aware the gallery isn't open at all other days of the week. (The whole museum is worth a look btw, mostly free too) -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr (1) Set of popular UK TV soap opera. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 26 16:39:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:39:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: RX02 Problem solved... In-Reply-To: <0J6500L6CY4DP6U7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Sep 25, 6 03:30:32 pm Message-ID: > >Thanks to tremendous help from several folks I've isolated my formatting > >problem. > > > >Turns out to be a hardware issue with the DY1: drive. I've tried > >cleaning heads etc. The read/write boards are fine ( I swapped them > >with my Decmate I to check). > > > >So now I need a single drive for an RX02. Any idea's of a source? > > > >Many thanks! > > > >- Gary > > Yes and no. The Drives are same as RX01 and also same as those used > in the PDT-11/150.. > > Before I'd run out and kill a RX. I'd try cleaning and relubing the > leadscrew and making sure the head load pad is still there. Other faults that I've had were a mis-aligned track 0 sensor (causing it to step out beyond the outermost formatted track on the disk), and a low-tension head load pad spring. In the latter case, taking the thing a aper and bending the torsion spring by hand got it going again. The only problem was reassembling it, I found it necessary to make a dummy pin to hold the spring inside the load arm that was then pushed out when the real pin was inserted through the head mouting. In any case, before replacing something as large as a drive unit, I'd want to know which of the various parts was the problem. Do you know, for example, that the head load solenoid works and pulls in correctly? That you can get a signal from the track 0 sensor? That the spindle is turning? and so on... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 26 16:46:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:46:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Resetting connectors (Was: Personal Iris IRIX issues..) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Sep 26, 6 11:25:27 am Message-ID: > > At 19:30 -0500 9/17/06, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >Sometimes it helps this old hardware to be "kreidlered". I.e. > >disassemble the whole machine, reaseat all PCBs and connectors and try > >again. (Sometimes connectors get a litle bit of corrosion etc. that is > >cleand out by un- and repluging the connector.) > > Thirded (1). I have a Mac Plus with Brainstorm accelerator Fo(u)thed :-) I've cured many problems in all sorts of machines by removing and replacing connectors, socketed ICs, and the like. Thsoe of use with HP41s will know the ritual of taking the machine apart and cleaning the inter-PCB connectors when it malfunctions... > (16 MHz 68000, plus SCSI chip upgrade). It has been giving me fits > with intermittent operation for years. Tuning the 5V setting on the > analog board *right up* against (but not over) the crowbar seemed to This reminds me of the hard disk problems I had with my PERQ 3a. The previous owner had turned the PSU output right up to try to get rid intermittant disk problems, I was not happy with this _at all_. So I set the PSU back to the right output voltages, then decided to check the voltages at the hard disk connector. One of them, I forget which, was about 1V lower than it should be. It turned out that there's an in-line fuse in that supply wire, it's in one of those holders you'd use in car wiring with clamp screws holding the wires in brass collars. Well, one of those screws was loose, there was a high resistance conenction there. Tightening it up cured the disk probles -- the right way. -tony From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Sep 26 17:22:16 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:22:16 -0700 Subject: SCSI cable needed Message-ID: Roy J. Tellason wrote: ________________________________ I've been going through a whole mess of stuff trying to get a CD burner working here, one I have won't work at all, one won't open and close its drawer reliably, and what I finally got to work was an external unit, a Yamaha CRW4260tx. Not new, but hey, it works... The thing is, I've currently got it hooked up by having the cover off, using a 50-wire ribbon cable from the rear of the actual drive assembly to the internal connector of the Adaptec 2940 that's in the computer, which also has its cover off. I'd like to put the covers on again, particularly since someone mentioned in here that cooling is critical with those drives, but to do that I need the right cable. The person I got this stuff from gave me *all* of their SCSI stuff, they ssy. And included in that was a ribbon cable, but that's apparently for internal use as it has three connectors on it and they're all the same size. I do have the book for the burner handy, and the cable shown in there is round. And the connector on the burner (2 of them actually) is *smaller* than the external connector on the 2940, I don't know exactly what you'd call this one. Anybody have such a cable they'd be willing to part with? I don't have much cash to work with at all, but could probably cover postage, or maybe trade some stuff. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy, I've read this twice but couldn't figure out which cable you need. Where does the cable go - drive to external box, external box to PC connector or internal to PC? How many pins on each end, what kind of connector etc. I can help you, albeit slowly, since the stuff is up North, 400 miles away. I have three of the Yamaha units that you are welcome to. I'll even ship them free. But all three have a bad laser diode. It was one of the early burner designs and has a limited number of on-hours. I really liked the Yamaha externals, but they wore out quickly. The flat cable with the three connectors was used on one of the Yamaha boxes to go from the drive to the TWO connectors on the back of the external box. My other two Yamahas had the two rear connectors soldered together with loose wires going into a 50 pin connector plugged into the back of the drive. I also have boxes of SCSI cables, all types, and terminators. But because of the wide variation in types, I need to know exact pin count and connector types. I have a few down here in Orange County, so maybe we'll be lucky. Just send me a detailed description. So let me know exactly what you are looking for. And if you want the other Yamahas, I'll be going up 3rd week in October and can send them to you then. Billy From steerex at mindspring.com Tue Sep 26 18:10:46 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:10:46 -0400 Subject: Fixing PCB runs Message-ID: <01C6E19F.798A8A50@MAGGIE> Hey Guys, I have several PCBs that have damaged runs. The damage was done as a result of dirt/moisture in contact with the boards while energized. I am going to fix the boards by splicing a short piece of copper wire to the existing runs, bridging the section where the run is broken. That's no problem. In order to physically secure the patch to the board and protect the exposed copper from corrosion, I need to apply some kinda coating / adhesive. What would you recommend? I don't want to spray the whole board with lacquer or anything like that. Just the areas where the copper is exposed. I was wondeing if something like fingernail polish would work? Any suggestions? Thanks, SteveRob From fryers at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 17:45:01 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 23:45:01 +0100 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey All, On 9/26/06, Billy Pettit wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > ________________________________ [...] > use as it has three connectors on it and they're all the same size. I do > have the book for the burner handy, and the cable shown in there is round. > And the connector on the burner (2 of them actually) is *smaller* than the > external connector on the 2940, I don't know exactly what you'd call this > one. > > Anybody have such a cable they'd be willing to part with? I don't have much > > cash to work with at all, but could probably cover postage, or maybe trade > > some stuff. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Roy, > > I've read this twice but couldn't figure out which cable you need. Where > does the cable go - drive to external box, external box to PC connector or > internal to PC? How many pins on each end, what kind of connector etc. I am going to guess a 68 pin wide to Honda 50. Roy - can you check that the connector on the back of the adaptec card is looking for a male connector that is secured with screws, and the connector on the back of the CD writter is looking for a male connector that is secured by clips. [chomp] I have a couple of these cables but I never seemed to get them to work properly with my DLT drive and my NCR based host adapter. The cheap cables seemed to do something unpleasent to the most significant 8 bits that stopped the wide drives from working correctly. The genuine DEC cable I borrowed from a friend on a couple of occasions always seemed to work properly. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 26 17:55:11 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:55:11 -0400 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609261855.11689.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 26 September 2006 06:22 pm, Billy Pettit wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > ________________________________ > I'd like to put the covers on again, > I do have the book for the burner handy, and the cable shown in there is > round. And the connector on the burner (2 of them actually) is *smaller* > than the external connector on the 2940, > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Roy, > > I've read this twice but couldn't figure out which cable you need. Where > does the cable go - drive to external box, external box to PC connector or > internal to PC? How many pins on each end, what kind of connector etc. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but I need the cable that'll go from the external connector on an Adaptec 2940 to the external connector on this Yamaha drive. > I can help you, albeit slowly, since the stuff is up North, 400 miles away. I appreciate that, but I've already heard from one person off-list who says they're sending me one. > I have three of the Yamaha units that you are welcome to. I'll even ship > them free. But all three have a bad laser diode. It was one of the early > burner designs and has a limited number of on-hours. I really liked the > Yamaha externals, but they wore out quickly. Sorry to hear that. How long did they last? And what was the symptom of the laser going bad? > The flat cable with the three connectors was used on one of the Yamaha > boxes to go from the drive to the TWO connectors on the back of the > external box. Not this one I received from the person I got this stuff from, it's *way* too long to even fit inside that box. > My other two Yamahas had the two rear connectors soldered together with > loose wires going into a 50 pin connector plugged into the back of the > drive. The internal cabling for the Yamaha box has a bunch of loose wires that go from one of the external connectors to the connector that plugs into the back of the drive and then to the other external connector. Mostly green and gray. > I also have boxes of SCSI cables, all types, and terminators. But because > of the wide variation in types, I need to know exact pin count and > connector types. That's one of the problems I run into with SCSI stuff, although I don't otherwise have much of a problem with it as far as setting things up, configuring, etc. goes. > I have a few down here in Orange County, so maybe we'll be lucky. Just send > me a detailed description. The one in question is the one on the external side for an Adaptec 2940. I'm not sure what you'd call this. Not the 2940uw, which I also have one of, though I haven't actually looked to see if the external connectors are differnt on those or not. The other one is on the back of the Yamaha external box (well, actually there are two of them on there). The person I corresponded with offlist pointed here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190035478281&ru=http:// search.ebay.com:80/190035478281_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsopZ1QQmaxrecordsreturnedZ300QQfviZ1 which appears to be the exact same unit. I don't know what they call those connectors either. > So let me know exactly what you are looking for. And if you want the other > Yamahas, I'll be going up 3rd week in October and can send them to you > then. I don't know how feasible it would be to actually repair those units or whether it would be easy enough to just drop another SCSI burner in the same external box, so let me look into that and feel free to drop me a note then and we'll kick it around some offlist. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 26 17:55:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:55:27 -0700 Subject: Fixing PCB runs In-Reply-To: <01C6E19F.798A8A50@MAGGIE> References: <01C6E19F.798A8A50@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <200609261555270352.1649E5AF@10.0.0.252> >I was wondeing if something like fingernail polish would work. Fingernail polish is fine--I carry two bottles of clear polish in my toolkit (in case one dries out). Much neater than hot glue, glypt, RTV or epoxy. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Sep 26 18:00:40 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:00:40 -0700 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4519B118.2030901@msm.umr.edu> Simon Fryer wrote: > Hey All, > > > >> >> I've read this twice but couldn't figure out which cable you need. >> Where >> does the cable go - drive to external box, external box to PC >> connector or >> internal to PC? How many pins on each end, what kind of connector etc. > > > I am going to guess a 68 pin wide to Honda 50. I found from Roys original posting that he wants a cable for the 2940 to the Yamaha CRW4260tx . I found that current ebay auction 190035478281 is of that external box. The 2940 takes a 50 pin external cable to a 50 pin on the back of the Yamaha external box. The 2940U or 2940UW would need the 68 pin external, or would have an internal 68 pin connector + a 50 pin connector. The 2940 does not. I offered to send the cable to him off list, but if someone is closer, or wants to superceed, let me know. I plan to send one to him in the next day or two, unless something comes up. Jim From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 18:03:34 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:03:34 -0400 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <200609261855.11689.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609261855.11689.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4519B1C6.8090209@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> I do have the book for the burner handy, and the cable shown in there is >> round. And the connector on the burner (2 of them actually) is *smaller* >> than the external connector on the 2940, If I'm right that you're running a 2940W (or 2940UW or 2940U2W) instead of a 2940, the cable you're looking for is HONDA68 -> HONDA50 *with high-byte termination*. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 26 18:13:42 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:13:42 -0400 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609261913.42232.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 26 September 2006 06:45 pm, Simon Fryer wrote: <...> > I am going to guess a 68 pin wide to Honda 50. I don't think either of these is "wide". > Roy - can you check that the connector on the back of the adaptec card > is looking for a male connector that is secured with screws, I can't conveniently get at the back of the machine right now, but I pulled out both of my other 2940s, and the 2940uw is apparently a "wide" connector, and fastens with screws, while the other (non-"uw") 2940 has a couple of latches on either and of the connector, and is definitely smaller. > and the connector on the back of the CD writter is looking for a male > connector that is secured by clips. Probably. I just took a look at it and there are no screw fastenings there either. Only thing I can tell you for sure is that it's smaller than the one on the 2940. Honda 50? That's not a designation for a connector that I've ever bumped into before. Google is finding me some pictures, though... > [chomp] > > I have a couple of these cables but I never seemed to get them to work > properly with my DLT drive and my NCR based host adapter. The cheap > cables seemed to do something unpleasent to the most significant 8 > bits that stopped the wide drives from working correctly. The genuine > DEC cable I borrowed from a friend on a couple of occasions always > seemed to work properly. Are you mixing wide and narrow stuff there? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 26 18:17:28 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:17:28 -0400 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <4519B118.2030901@msm.umr.edu> References: <4519B118.2030901@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200609261917.28571.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 26 September 2006 07:00 pm, jim stephens wrote: > I found from Roys original posting that he wants a cable for the 2940 to > the Yamaha CRW4260tx . > > I found that current ebay auction 190035478281 is of that external box. > > The 2940 takes a 50 pin external cable to a 50 pin on the back of the > Yamaha external box. > > The 2940U or 2940UW would need the 68 pin external, or would have > an internal 68 pin connector + a 50 pin connector. The 2940 does not. Hm. I was of the impression that the connector on the 2940(?) was wider than the one on the external drive box, but I also see that the two 2940s I have in my spares are using two different kinds of connectors -- one of those is definitely a "uw", the other one is apparently not. If necessary I can change out the one that's currently in the box for the one with the smaller (50-pin?) connector on it. > I offered to send the cable to him off list, Since you jumped right in there, I wasn't going to say anything about that on-list unless you chose to. :-) > but if someone is closer, or wants to superceed, let me know. I plan to > send one to him in the next day or two, unless something comes up. I'm looking forward to it, since you nailed the drive pretty good. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 26 18:19:55 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:19:55 -0400 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <4519B1C6.8090209@gmail.com> References: <200609261855.11689.rtellason@verizon.net> <4519B1C6.8090209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200609261919.55223.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 26 September 2006 07:03 pm, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> I do have the book for the burner handy, and the cable shown in there > >> is round. And the connector on the burner (2 of them actually) is > >> *smaller* than the external connector on the 2940, > > If I'm right that you're running a 2940W (or 2940UW or 2940U2W) instead > of a 2940, the cable you're looking for is HONDA68 -> HONDA50 *with > high-byte termination*. I understand the need for the high-byte termination you mention here, as that may be at the root of some of the problems that I've seen others mention in this thread. What I don't understand is why a card that has only a 50-pin internal connector would have a 68-pin connector on the external bracket. It also came as a bit of a surprise to me that when I pulled out my box of those cards I found that even though all three of them had the same model number that they were apparently three different cards... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pechter at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 18:28:22 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:28:22 -0400 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <200609261919.55223.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609261855.11689.rtellason@verizon.net> <4519B1C6.8090209@gmail.com> <200609261919.55223.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: The card is wide SCSI... the internal side has both wide and narrow. You can get a 50 pin ribbon cable to PC slot cover with a either a 50 pin SCSI2 connector or one of those DB25 SCSI connectors used by the old Mac's and early PC's to bring the 50 pin bus external. Either that or I may have a 2940 Narrow interface here that I'd swap. Bill On 9/26/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Tuesday 26 September 2006 07:03 pm, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > >> I do have the book for the burner handy, and the cable shown in > there > > >> is round. And the connector on the burner (2 of them actually) is > > >> *smaller* than the external connector on the 2940, > > > > If I'm right that you're running a 2940W (or 2940UW or 2940U2W) instead > > of a 2940, the cable you're looking for is HONDA68 -> HONDA50 *with > > high-byte termination*. > > I understand the need for the high-byte termination you mention here, as > that > may be at the root of some of the problems that I've seen others mention > in > this thread. What I don't understand is why a card that has only a 50-pin > internal connector would have a 68-pin connector on the external bracket. > > It also came as a bit of a surprise to me that when I pulled out my box of > those cards I found that even though all three of them had the same model > number that they were apparently three different cards... > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. > --James > M Dakin > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 26 14:19:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:19:48 -0500 Subject: another test Message-ID: <015801c6e1a0$c0135ff0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Please ignore. From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Sep 26 19:03:09 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:03:09 -0400 Subject: Fixing PCB runs References: <01C6E19F.798A8A50@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <001e01c6e1c8$52149ff0$0100a8c0@screamer> I prefer to use epoxy, as that's what holds the board together already. The only trick is to find a thin, quick setting brand so you don't make a mess. Mix in small batches and apply quickly, discard what you have mixed as soon as it starts to get tacky. If applied quickly, while its still quite thin, its nearly undetectable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Robertson" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:10 PM Subject: Fixing PCB runs Hey Guys, I have several PCBs that have damaged runs. The damage was done as a result of dirt/moisture in contact with the boards while energized. I am going to fix the boards by splicing a short piece of copper wire to the existing runs, bridging the section where the run is broken. That's no problem. In order to physically secure the patch to the board and protect the exposed copper from corrosion, I need to apply some kinda coating / adhesive. What would you recommend? I don't want to spray the whole board with lacquer or anything like that. Just the areas where the copper is exposed. I was wondeing if something like fingernail polish would work? Any suggestions? Thanks, SteveRob From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 26 19:55:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:55:09 -0700 Subject: Fixing PCB runs In-Reply-To: <001e01c6e1c8$52149ff0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <01C6E19F.798A8A50@MAGGIE> <001e01c6e1c8$52149ff0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200609261755090930.16B77EA1@10.0.0.252> On 9/26/2006 at 8:03 PM Bob Shannon wrote: >I prefer to use epoxy, as that's what holds the board together already. Not if you're like me--making "patches" that I later want to undo! Nail polish is pretty neat stuff--if I'm working on a wirewrap project, I can "tack" troublesome wires out of the way, yet easily free them if I need to. When doing a wirewrap project, I'll take some red nail polish (pick your shade) and mark pin 1 of all of the packages on the wiring side. Keeps me honest--all those pins poking up at me makes it easy to lose my place. I've thought about taking one of the other colors--such as green--and marking the diagonally opposite corner of each package. I suppose one could also tack a wire down with gel-type cyanoacrylate (Super) glue, but I'd probably end up gluing my fingers to the PCB. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 26 21:11:47 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 21:11:47 -0500 Subject: Data I/O Model 29 info? Message-ID: <200609270104.k8R142fj012458@hosting.monisys.ca> Anyone on the list intimately familier with the Data I/O 29A and/or 29B device programmers? Went for a "last hurrah" today at a surplus shop which is closing it's doors - what started as a simple inquiry about a logicpak module I saw on the shelf ended in me taking home a boatload of modules, adapters and other 29x "bits". Which has spawned a few Q's... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 20:14:58 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:14:58 +1200 Subject: Fixing PCB runs In-Reply-To: <200609261755090930.16B77EA1@10.0.0.252> References: <01C6E19F.798A8A50@MAGGIE> <001e01c6e1c8$52149ff0$0100a8c0@screamer> <200609261755090930.16B77EA1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 9/27/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suppose one could also tack a wire down with gel-type cyanoacrylate > (Super) glue, but I'd probably end up gluing my fingers to the PCB. We used to use a cyanoacrylate adhesive from Loctite specifically designed for ECO repairs. It's much like super-glue gel, and was used with an "accelerant" liquid you paint on the board first (all cyanoacrylate adhesives are essentially liquid monomers that polymerize on application with the help of ubiquitious traces of surface moisture - doesn't work so well at the South Pole, though) It wasn't exactly cheap, and I did glue my fingers to a board more than once, but with practice, you learn how to lay it down in the smallest amounts possible to get the job done. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 20:44:29 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:44:29 +1200 Subject: Data I/O Model 29 info? In-Reply-To: <200609270104.k8R142fj012458@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200609270104.k8R142fj012458@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: On 9/27/06, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Anyone on the list intimately familier with the Data I/O 29A > and/or 29B device programmers? Well... I have one, but I'm not as familiar with it as I'd like... > Went for a "last hurrah" today at a surplus shop which is > closing it's doors - what started as a simple inquiry about a > logicpak module I saw on the shelf ended in me taking > home a boatload of modules, adapters and other 29x "bits". Nice. I, too, have a Logicpak module, but I think I'm running into firmware revision levels giving me problems with burning very modern Atmel 22V10 GALs. I did get EPROM stuff working with some Data I/O custom DOS app to remotely drive the programmer, but I never got logic devices working. It's on my list of things to do when I get home next year (that or buy a modern programmer that can handle GALs - my old DOS-based programmer isn't up to it). > Which has spawned a few Q's... Give them a shot and I'll answer what I can. -ethan From walkerpa at ihug.co.nz Tue Sep 26 20:47:33 2006 From: walkerpa at ihug.co.nz (Anna & Peter Walker) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:47:33 +1200 Subject: Getting started with HP9000/200 In-Reply-To: <200609261700.k8QH0ZiE054373@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003301c6e1d6$e65d1a30$0201010a@phatboy> Tony, > OK, HP Pascal may be worth a try sometime. Is it related to any other > Pascal (like, say, the UCSD P-system)? HP Pascal is also very powerful, and modular, i.e.: allows compiled modules, or units in Borland Pascal terminology. It includes UCSD file IO, and it has an assembler and debugger. I think in terms of HP hardware supported, Pascal 3.1 is roughly equivalent to Basic 5.1. All of this is gleaned from the various documents at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/9000_200/ as my Pascal knowledge is a little rusty! > you get the idea)). And floppy / floopy drive wear has to be balanced, I > guess, agaisnt the possiblity of a headcrash on the hard drive... It was with this in mind that I did an RS232 byte transfer of all three volumes of my 9153 to files on PC. It took a while! But at least I have a form of archive besides for floppies. I believe that the HP LIFUTIL program will allow connecting an HP drive to PC via HPIB, but I don't have one of those cards currently! > As regards convenience, if I can fit a BASIC configured the way I want > (with the necessare I/O drivers) on one disk, and have a second disk for > my programs, that should be quite useable. I can make backups/images of Suggestion: you could have Basic on the 1st disk, with a startup program that loads drivers from the 2nd disk, and then loads main program(s) from subsequent disks. Regards, Peter -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/457 - Release Date: 26-09-2006 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 20:58:09 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:58:09 +1200 Subject: RX02 Problem solved... In-Reply-To: References: <0J6500L6CY4DP6U7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 9/27/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > Gary writes... > > >So now I need a single drive for an RX02. Any idea's of a source? > > > > Before I'd run out and kill a RX. I'd try cleaning and relubing the > > leadscrew and making sure the head load pad is still there. Speaking of leadscrews, is there any place to get a replacement stepper than a donor RX drive? I have a drive at home that was free to me because the stepper siezed up and totally fried the driver transistors (and crisped the board). It works well enough as a single drive, but if I ran across a replacement drive mech or at least a replacement stepper motor, I'm sure I could rebuilt the stepper driver section. -ethan From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 26 22:10:39 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:10:39 -0500 Subject: Data I/O Model 29 info? In-Reply-To: References: <200609270104.k8R142fj012458@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200609270202.k8R22rFE020412@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Ethan, > > Went for a "last hurrah" today at a surplus shop which is > > closing it's doors - what started as a simple inquiry about a > > logicpak module I saw on the shelf ended in me taking > > home a boatload of modules, adapters and other 29x "bits". > > Nice. I, too, have a Logicpak module, but I think I'm running into > firmware revision levels giving me problems with burning very modern > Atmel 22V10 GALs. I did get EPROM stuff working with some Data I/O > custom DOS app to remotely drive the programmer, but I never got logic > devices working. It's on my list of things to do when I get home next > year (that or buy a modern programmer that can handle GALs - my old > DOS-based programmer isn't up to it). I've done quite a few EPROMs in my 29B - I am hoping to be able to use the Logicpaks to make use of some of the tubes of older PALs I have kicking around... But I've never had a Logicpak before - need docs! I have the Data I/O PC software, but I never use it - I just run it from the keypad, using the serial port only for upload/download ... > > Which has spawned a few Q's... > > Give them a shot and I'll answer what I can. Ok, here goes... Here is a list of the material I acquired with Q's intermixed: 2 Logicpack modules - One is 303A-V01, the other is V04-008 + Adapters: 303A-002 \ 303A-004 > Programming/Testing Adapter 303A-006 / 303A-011A -> PLD Programming/Testing Adapter Q1: All of the adapters seem to work (pass self test on both logicpak modules, except for the 303A-011A which works only on the V04-008 (self-test hangs on the other one) - is this normal? I gather the 011A is a universal module, and needs the newer firmware of the V04? Also two of what apparently are ROM modules which plug into the Logicpak - when in this configuration, there is NO device programming socket? - PALASM Design Adapter: 303A-100 - H&L Design Adapter : 303A-101 Q2: How do these work? Info? Q3: Anyone got documents on the Logicpak or any of these adapters? (All I have is the Logicpak device list .TXT) 1 socket adapter 351A-066 - Looks like it fits over a socket on the Unipak 2 Q4: Anyone know what devices this is for? Documents? 1 "Gang Programming Module 28 pin" - Not the same as a "Gangpak" (which I already had), this one has a plug-in module for the device type (installed is: 2708 714-1516) Q5: Is the device selection module just a "jumper block"? If so, anyone have pinouts for other devices? Q6: Any documentation/information? A complete 29A with Unipak 2 - First thing I tried to figure out is "whats the difference from my 29B" - I notice that only 4 digits are available for RAM address (less RAM), and the Unipak2 lists fewer devices than my IIB. Q7: Manual I downloaded says 8K data ram with optional expansion to 16K --- yet editing at 4K boundaries in this unit seems to suggest that it has a full 64k (all boundary edits remained intact) - Is this a valid way to determine memory size? - Can the 29A have 64K? (I note that some Unipak 2 documents do not show devices larger than 27128 (16k), while a different doc shows up to 27512 (64k) ... ? Q8: The configuration command (Select B2) shows a value of B80B - anyone know what this means? How new/old is it? Any other info/pointers would be welcomed. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From gkaufman at the-planet.org Tue Sep 26 21:10:26 2006 From: gkaufman at the-planet.org (Gary E Kaufman) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:10:26 -0400 Subject: RX02 Problem solved... In-Reply-To: <200609270157.k8R1usaN005825@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609270157.k8R1usaN005825@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4519DD92.8090108@the-planet.org> Tony and others - The head load pad looks visually fine. The head load spring tension appears pretty normal , and the solenoid pulls in nicely. The drive consistently reads the first 10 or so tracks, then tosses various number of errors as it goes further out. I've cleaned the head, and cleaned/lubed the spindle. The track 0 sensor appears fine. It is indeed possible that the alignment is off - that would probably explain the poor performance as it steps out. I guess a worn out head would have the same symptoms. I the 70's I had a neat Dysan digital alignment disk that I used to realign a few SA901 and SA801 drives. Unfortunately I no longer have it. I suppose I could mark the position of the stepper and slightly rotate it in each direction to see if it improves things. If someone can point me to an actual alignment procedure I'm game - I have reasonable scopes etc here. I'm not anxious to replace the entire drive, but I would love to get this up and running! Any help/suggestions greatly appreciated. - Gary Other faults that I've had were a mis-aligned track 0 sensor (causing it to step out beyond the outermost formatted track on the disk), and a low-tension head load pad spring. In the latter case, taking the thing a aper and bending the torsion spring by hand got it going again. The only problem was reassembling it, I found it necessary to make a dummy pin to hold the spring inside the load arm that was then pushed out when the real pin was inserted through the head mouting. In any case, before replacing something as large as a drive unit, I'd want to know which of the various parts was the problem. Do you know, for example, that the head load solenoid works and pulls in correctly? That you can get a signal from the track 0 sensor? That the spindle is turning? and so on... -tony From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 21:19:50 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:19:50 -0400 Subject: Fixing PCB runs In-Reply-To: <01C6E19F.798A8A50@MAGGIE> References: <01C6E19F.798A8A50@MAGGIE> Message-ID: On 9/26/06, Steve Robertson wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > I have several PCBs that have damaged runs. The damage was done as a > result of dirt/moisture in contact with the boards while energized. I am > going to fix the boards by splicing a short piece of copper wire to the > existing runs, bridging the section where the run is broken. That's no > problem. This might not be the answer you want, but I usually solder a point-to-point wire between two through holes of the sockets to fix the damaged runs. In this case you only need to glue the wire secure. vax, 9000 In order to physically secure the patch to the board and protect the exposed > copper from corrosion, I need to apply some kinda coating / adhesive. What > would you recommend? I don't want to spray the whole board with lacquer or > anything like that. Just the areas where the copper is exposed. I was > wondeing if something like fingernail polish would work? Any suggestions? > > Thanks, SteveRob > > From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 26 21:38:43 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:38:43 -0400 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: References: <200609261919.55223.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609262238.43424.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 26 September 2006 07:28 pm, Bill Pechter wrote: > The card is wide SCSI... the internal side has both wide and narrow. Not the one that's in the machine, that has only the 50-pin internal connector. One of the ones I have in the box has both, though ("uw"). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Sep 26 23:27:49 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 23:27:49 -0500 Subject: List stats Message-ID: > Out of interest, are the stats for daily list traffic recorded anywhere? >I've not seen any obviously missing messages, I just don't seem to be >seeing much list traffic right now (since hopping the pond a couple of >weeks back and using a different ISP) The digests haven't been quite right, I've missed a couple (issue 51 just recently), so it's possible that stuff's being lost somewhere. From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Sep 26 17:39:13 2006 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:39:13 -0500 Subject: External MFM/ESDI? Message-ID: Well, I have a bunch of open expansion space in my RK07 cabinet, and I was thinking of somehow mounting the ESDI disks inside it. What sort of products exist for mounting these disks externally, probably in a seperate cabinet from the controller? From trag at io.com Wed Sep 27 04:39:04 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:39:04 -0500 Subject: 2940 Taxonomy; was: Re: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <200609270718.k8R7InAw002730@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609270718.k8R7InAw002730@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:19:55 -0400 >From: "Roy J. Tellason" >On Tuesday 26 September 2006 07:03 pm, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> >> I do have the book for the burner handy, and the cable shown in there >> >> is round. And the connector on the burner (2 of them actually) is >> >> *smaller* than the external connector on the 2940, >> >> If I'm right that you're running a 2940W (or 2940UW or 2940U2W) instead >> of a 2940, the cable you're looking for is HONDA68 -> HONDA50 *with >> high-byte termination*. > >I understand the need for the high-byte termination you mention here, as that >may be at the root of some of the problems that I've seen others mention in >this thread. What I don't understand is why a card that has only a 50-pin >internal connector would have a 68-pin connector on the external bracket. > >It also came as a bit of a surprise to me that when I pulled out my box of >those cards I found that even though all three of them had the same model >number that they were apparently three different cards... Adaptec used the same circuit board for several different products. In every case the circuit board has the same markings, but by populating the board in different ways they made different products. I'm going from memory here, so if I get some details wrong feel free to nitpick me. The 2940UW has an external HD68 pin connector with screw fasteners and internally it has an IDC50 ribbon cable connector and a 68 pin ribbon cable connector. The 2940U has an external HD50 connector (with clips) and an IDC50 ribbon cable connector internally. The Macintosh version of the 2940UW is just like the PC version, except it has a 1Mb (as opposed to 512Kb) Flash chip programmed with different firmware. There was also a Sun version of the card with Open Firmware code on board. You used to be able to download the firmware updater back in the good old days when Adaptec had a very comprehensive ftp site accessible to the public (why did so many companies shut down their public ftp sites?). I think there was also a differential (HVD) version of that card on that board, but I may be misremembering. The 2940 (no U) is a slightly different card because there's only a position on board for a DIP packaged Flash (or EPROM) chip and no PLCC nor (I think) SOIC position. To further complicate matters there were at least two later variants of the 2940UW, the 2940UW Dual and the 2940UW Pro. AFAICT, these two later variants used a different controller chip than the X940U[W]. The X940U[W] uses an AIC-7880. I think the two later variants use a 7895, but that's a low reliability memory on that last part number. While the 2940UW uses a 68 pin external connector with screw fasteners, there are versions of the 68 pin external connector with clips. It is found on the FWB (Stream Logic) NuBus JackHammer SCSI card, for example. And 68 pin external terminators exist in both variants to correspond with both types of connectors found in the wild. Jeff Walther From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Sep 27 07:26:34 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 05:26:34 -0700 Subject: 2940 Taxonomy; was: Re: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: References: <200609270718.k8R7InAw002730@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <451A6DFA.6090004@msm.umr.edu> Jeff Walther wrote: >> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:19:55 -0400 >> From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > good summary Jeff. I cant see anything you got wrong, but might clarify that there are two terms in the naming of these boards and others that need to be mentioned. the W stands for Wide, or 16 bit, or 68 pin connectors. It is true that you can have W with SCA type 80 pin connectors as well. the U stands for Ultra Scsi which is the 40 mb/sec or greater. Scsi orignally was 5mb/sec. then it was doubled by doing what was originally called synchronous mode to 10mb / sec. then ultra 2 came out and went to 80 m / sec. I found a page that was out in 1988 announcing the Adaptec products coming which was the AHA-2940U2W which had the dual channel chips and U2 transfer rate. That is probably the double 68 pin internal board you are speaking of. It claimed that the U2W board also supported LVD The latest transfer rate is Ultra 160. I don't have any info on those drives. I think the 80 pin SCA is only a matter of the hot plug spec and connector, and can be dealt with by adapters from the 50 pin or 68 pin cables to the SCA back plane connectors. It also deals with the device address in the connector. here is one link to a good page of info. http://www.transintl.com/technotes/scsi.htm From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 27 06:35:28 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:35:28 -0400 Subject: RS DRAM chips? Message-ID: <0J6900JHT1FYVFW8@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RS DRAM chips? > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:43:48 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >I have some chips here, I'm pretty sure they're DRAM, marked with both a >Motorola logo and a "T/C" (Tandy Corp.?) logo, and with the part number >8040016 followed by what I'm pretty sure is a data code of QQ8301. Anybody >know what these are, exactly? > >I have a bunch of them, and no particular use for them, if anybody needs >some, though I'm curious as to what they are. Those are moto housenumbered 4116 16kx1 three voltage dynamic rams used in TRS80 and other machines of the time. Note: RS used slow parts. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 27 06:37:32 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:37:32 -0400 Subject: RX02 Problem solved... Message-ID: <0J6900IFV1JE1KBD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: RX02 Problem solved... > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:35:52 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Monday 25 September 2006 03:30 pm, Allison wrote: >> Before I'd run out and kill a RX. I'd try cleaning and relubing the >> leadscrew and making sure the head load pad is still there. >> >> I had one that once both were taken care of it was perfect. > >Speaking of head load pads, way back when I was still bumping into a lot of >single-sided stuff I had one heck of a time tracking any of those down. I >have *no* idea now, several decades later, where the heck I got 'em from. >Are they available anyplace? And how critical are their characteristics, >anyhow? > >Not that I have any particularl *need* for them right now, just wondering... I use a peice of felt, real stuff not any of the cheap fakes.. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 27 06:43:24 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:43:24 -0400 Subject: RX02 Problem solved... Message-ID: <0J6900L7Z1T7KXRG@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RX02 Problem solved... > From: Gary E Kaufman > Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:10:26 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Tony and others - > >The head load pad looks visually fine. The head load spring tension >appears pretty normal , and the solenoid pulls in nicely. > >The drive consistently reads the first 10 or so tracks, then tosses >various number of errors as it goes further out. > >I've cleaned the head, and cleaned/lubed the spindle. The track 0 >sensor appears fine. Also make sure the rails the head travels on are clean. The whole mess should move very smoothly. >It is indeed possible that the alignment is off - that would probably >explain the poor performance as it steps out. If it's bad on the outer tracks then it will be bad elsewhere. The only way it can get worse is if the lead screw or the follower is worn to the point of looseness. >I guess a worn out head would have the same symptoms. That can be visually inspected under a magnifier. Never seen that happen. > I the 70's I had a neat Dysan digital alignment disk that I used to >realign a few SA901 and SA801 drives. >Unfortunately I no longer have it. I suppose I could mark the position >of the stepper and slightly rotate it in each direction to see if it >improves things. Shugart made one too. > >If someone can point me to an actual alignment procedure I'm game - I >have reasonable scopes etc here. Without the disk or a known good disk you not going to get the best results. Allison From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Sep 27 15:23:24 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:23:24 -0500 Subject: Transition panels and racking Message-ID: <002301c6e272$c89b2e00$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I'm trying to organize my PDP11 setup in a neat and tidy fashion, and I'm wondering, aside from the DEC transition panels which would be ideal, what sort of multi medium transition panels are there that I can attach things like multiple RS232 ports and SCSI connectors, etc to? The idea I'm after is something akin to the keystone patch panels, but with things like full RS232-DB25 that just attach with a plate or something, much like the DEC panels. Anyone seen anything like this? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 27 15:51:06 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: <002301c6e272$c89b2e00$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <002301c6e272$c89b2e00$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I'm trying to organize my PDP11 setup in a neat and tidy fashion, and I'm > wondering, aside from the DEC transition panels which would be ideal, what > sort of multi medium transition panels are there that I can attach things > like multiple RS232 ports and SCSI connectors, etc to? > > The idea I'm after is something akin to the keystone patch panels, but with > things like full RS232-DB25 that just attach with a plate or something, much > like the DEC panels. Anyone seen anything like this? Have you considered http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/? They have a free (beer) app with which you design any sort of panel you like. Then you upload the design file and get a panel in the post anywhere from one day to a week or two later. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Sep 27 15:59:34 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:59:34 -0400 Subject: 2940 Taxonomy; was: Re: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <451A6DFA.6090004@msm.umr.edu> References: <200609270718.k8R7InAw002730@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060927164120.03c0c4e8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that jim stephens may have mentioned these words: >Jeff Walther wrote: > >>>Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:19:55 -0400 >>>From: "Roy J. Tellason" >> >good summary Jeff. I cant see anything you got wrong, but might >clarify that there are two terms in the naming of these boards and >others that need to be mentioned. > >the W stands for Wide, or 16 bit, or 68 pin connectors. It is true >that you can have W with SCA type 80 pin connectors as well. > >the U stands for Ultra Scsi which is the 40 mb/sec or greater. Erm, not quite. Ultra *can* be 20MByte/sec - if it's a narrow (8-bit) buss. I've had a few Ultra drives that were only 50-pin. >Scsi orignally was 5mb/sec. then it was doubled by doing >what was originally called synchronous mode to 10mb / sec. =-= A couple of skipped steps in the history... =-= Then, IIRC, Ultra and wide came out at about the same time, each supplying 20MByte/Sec - Ultra by increasing the bandwidth, Wide by increasing the busswidth. Then someone got smart, and stuck 'em together for Ultra Wide, and that gave us 40Meg/Sec. >then ultra 2 came out and went to 80 m / sec. I found a >page that was out in 1988 announcing the Adaptec products >coming which was the AHA-2940U2W which had the >dual channel chips and U2 transfer rate. That is probably >the double 68 pin internal board you are speaking of. > >It claimed that the U2W board also supported LVD > >The latest transfer rate is Ultra 160. I don't have any >info on those drives. Ah, no. The latest transfer rate is Ultra 320 - it's been out for at least a few years now. >I think the 80 pin SCA is only a matter of the hot plug >spec and connector, and can be dealt with by adapters >from the 50 pin or 68 pin cables to the SCA back >plane connectors. It also deals with the device address >in the connector. Although there are 50-pin to 80-pin adapters, remember that 50-pin is only an 8-bit-wide bus and so your throughput would not be any faster than with an 8-bit-wide device (of the same bandwidth). Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From fryers at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 16:13:25 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:13:25 +0100 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <200609261913.42232.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609261913.42232.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hey All, On 9/27/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 26 September 2006 06:45 pm, Simon Fryer wrote: [...] > > I have a couple of these cables but I never seemed to get them to work > > properly with my DLT drive and my NCR based host adapter. The cheap > > cables seemed to do something unpleasent to the most significant 8 > > bits that stopped the wide drives from working correctly. The genuine > > DEC cable I borrowed from a friend on a couple of occasions always > > seemed to work properly. > > Are you mixing wide and narrow stuff there? Yup. That would be me! Unless it is all just right - it won't work. Looking at the bright side SRM (SCSI card in question is in an alpha) had the guts to say - can not see the hard drive correctly so can not boot. So I knew I was doing somerthing stupid. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Sep 27 17:38:58 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:38:58 -0500 Subject: 2940 Taxonomy; was: Re: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <451A6DFA.6090004@msm.umr.edu> References: <200609270718.k8R7InAw002730@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060927173520.0e359950@localhost> At 05:26 AM 9/27/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Jeff Walther wrote: > >>>Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:19:55 -0400 >>>From: "Roy J. Tellason" >> >good summary Jeff. I cant see anything you got wrong, but might >clarify that there are two terms in the naming of these boards and >others that need to be mentioned. > >the W stands for Wide, or 16 bit, or 68 pin connectors. It is true >that you can have W with SCA type 80 pin connectors as well. > >the U stands for Ultra Scsi which is the 40 mb/sec or greater. > >It claimed that the U2W board also supported LVD I have a 2944UW. I have to use that for my DLT drives because they are low-voltage-differential. I believe that the 2940U or W or UW or U2W (never seen one of those) were also made in a 2944 version for LVD devices. I have 2944 in the next slot over from a 2940UW because my other drives are conventional interface and I use both on the same box at various times. -T "E Pur Si Muove" ("But It Does Move") --Gallileo --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Sep 20 02:02:53 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:02:53 +0100 Subject: Commodore 128s and SX-64 In-Reply-To: <87F87D4B-C54C-45F9-96FD-B90CC16FBDCB@mac.com> Message-ID: On 20/9/06 01:54, "Alvin DeBord" wrote: > I have two complete Systems with Manuals, Printers, and quite a bit > of software. Don't use them anymore and need to give them a new home. > Mike in Ottawa, Ontario suggested I contact you. If you can help me > sell these, I would highly appreciate it. > Why do SX64's only ever come up on the wrong side of the pond? :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 27 17:54:43 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:54:43 -0500 Subject: HP 110+ Message-ID: <002d01c6e287$ec478410$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm apparently google-impaired.... is anyone aware of an electronic copy of the HP 110+ computer owners manuals? Thanks in advance! Jay West From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Sep 27 17:55:23 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:55:23 -0700 Subject: 2940 Taxonomy; was: Re: SCSI cable needed Message-ID: Roger Merchberger wrote: Ah, no. The latest transfer rate is Ultra 320 - it's been out for at least a few years now. >I think the 80 pin SCA is only a matter of the hot plug >spec and connector, and can be dealt with by adapters >from the 50 pin or 68 pin cables to the SCA back >plane connectors. It also deals with the device address >in the connector. Although there are 50-pin to 80-pin adapters, remember that 50-pin is only an 8-bit-wide bus and so your throughput would not be any faster than with an 8-bit-wide device (of the same bandwidth). Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Billy: I first started working on Ultra 320 at Quantum in 1999; but they never shipped a product until 2001. 160 wasn't a clean intro - lots of controller/system problems. Don't know how 320 was on initial release, but given the same cast of characters, it might have been rough too. SCA 80 pin has a lot of adaptors to go to/from 68 pin. I even have an old Apple system using an SCA drive on a 50 pin bus via an adaptor PCB. If using SCA, key point to remember is that power is inside the 80 pin connector. SCA drives don't normally have the legacy 4 pin Molex power connector. And I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the early Apple SCSI, that was 25 pin. I'm still using some 50 to 25 pin cables on my G4 to drive some old Epsom scanners. And even have one scanner on an Initio wide controller doing a double conversion, 68 pin to 50 pin, then a 50 pin to 25 pin cable! SCSI is FUN! - Old lapel pin I picked up at some Comdex. Billy From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 27 17:57:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:57:49 -0500 Subject: List stats References: Message-ID: <005001c6e288$5ede89b0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... >> Out of interest, are the stats for daily list traffic recorded anywhere? >>I've not seen any obviously missing messages, I just don't seem to be >>seeing much list traffic right now (since hopping the pond a couple of >>weeks back and using a different ISP) I've had more than my fair quota of email problems on several servers the past few days. Most were unrelated to classiccmp, but there were definitely some issues there too. To my knowledge, all issues are currently resolved and things working fine. If this is not the case, please let me know directly! Jay West From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 27 19:08:06 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:08:06 +0000 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: References: <200609261913.42232.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <451B1266.9000204@yahoo.co.uk> Simon Fryer wrote: >> Are you mixing wide and narrow stuff there? > > Yup. That would be me! Unless it is all just right - it won't work. That's the trouble with SCSI standards - there's just too many of them :-) I've ended up with two separate SCSI HBAs in my home PC; one to run the internal U160 devices and internal UW devices, then another to run the internal narrow devices and the external UW devices. cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 17:48:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 23:48:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: External MFM/ESDI? In-Reply-To: from "Wolfe, Julian" at Sep 26, 6 05:39:13 pm Message-ID: > > Well, I have a bunch of open expansion space in my RK07 cabinet, and I > was thinking of somehow mounting the ESDI disks inside it. What sort of > products exist for mounting these disks externally, probably in a > seperate cabinet from the controller? IIRC the maximum cable lengths, certainly for the ST412 interface, are quite short. Probalby not long enough to put the drives in a separate rack cabinet. On my PC/XT, I have 2 5.25" floppy drives in the CPU box. So no space for hard dirives. The machine sits on top of another box that contains a pair of 3.5" floppies and a couple of ST412-interfaced hard drives. The former are linked to the external floppy connector on that card. I made up special cables from the hard disk controller's headers to D-connectors (DC 37 for the control lins, DB25 for the data lines), then cables from those connectors to the drives themselves. The first set of cables were fed out thtorgh a slot the hard disk controller's blanking plate, the conneectors being cable-moutned only. This works fine, but the cables are only about 18" long total. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 17:56:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 23:56:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: RX02 Problem solved... In-Reply-To: <4519DD92.8090108@the-planet.org> from "Gary E Kaufman" at Sep 26, 6 10:10:26 pm Message-ID: > > Tony and others - > > The head load pad looks visually fine. The head load spring tension > appears pretty normal , and the solenoid pulls in nicely. > > The drive consistently reads the first 10 or so tracks, then tosses > various number of errors as it goes further out. By 'out', I assume you mean towards higher numbered tracks -- that is with the head closer to the spindle. > > I've cleaned the head, and cleaned/lubed the spindle. The track 0 > sensor appears fine. > > It is indeed possible that the alignment is off - that would probably > explain the poor performance as it steps out. > I guess a worn out head would have the same symptoms. I can see no obvious reason why you'd get more errors on inner tracks if the alignment was off. The errors would be on all tracks I would think. Unless your leadscrew is so warn that the head is not properly postiioned (I have _never_ seen that happen). A worn/dirty head might give more errors on the inner tracks where the bit density is higher (shorter tracks), though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 18:11:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:11:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: <002301c6e272$c89b2e00$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> from "Julian Wolfe" at Sep 27, 6 03:23:24 pm Message-ID: > The idea I'm after is something akin to the keystone patch panels, but with > things like full RS232-DB25 that just attach with a plate or something, much > like the DEC panels. Anyone seen anything like this? How about getting a sheet of aluminium and cutting suitable holes in it for the connecotrs. It doesn't that _that_ long.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 18:18:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:18:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 110+ In-Reply-To: <002d01c6e287$ec478410$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Sep 27, 6 05:54:43 pm Message-ID: > > I'm apparently google-impaired.... is anyone aware of an electronic copy of > the HP 110+ computer owners manuals? Not what you're asking, but I think I have it on paper. I certainly have the technical reference and service manuals for this machine (aka 'Portable Plus'), so if there's something I can easily look up I will do so. The obvious place to look would be http://www.hpmuseum.net/ but that site is having problems at the moment, which the webmaster tells me he will be sorting out soon. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 18:22:21 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:22:21 +1200 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: References: <002301c6e272$c89b2e00$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On 9/28/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > The idea I'm after is something akin to the keystone patch panels, but with > > things like full RS232-DB25 that just attach with a plate or something, much > > like the DEC panels. Anyone seen anything like this? > > How about getting a sheet of aluminium and cutting suitable holes in it > for the connecotrs. It doesn't that _that_ long.... It goes _really_ fast with a D-shaped Greenlee punch. They are expensive, but make a nice, clean mounting hole in aluminum and plastic (not so good for steel). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 27 18:32:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:32:48 -0700 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <451B1266.9000204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200609261913.42232.rtellason@verizon.net> <451B1266.9000204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200609271632480943.1B927197@10.0.0.252> Anent 2940's: I've got a never-used 2975, which is suppose to be a RAID controller (narrow) for NetWare, but appears to most other systems as 3 2940s. It has 3 50 pin headers on the card and an HD50 on the rear bracket. It might make a good controller for handling a bunch of slow-speed devices. I've never found much use for it, other than as a curiosity. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 18:38:01 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:38:01 -0400 Subject: 2940 Taxonomy; was: Re: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060927173520.0e359950@localhost> References: <200609270718.k8R7InAw002730@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20060927173520.0e359950@localhost> Message-ID: <451B0B59.90803@gmail.com> Tom Peters wrote: > I have a 2944UW. I have to use that for my DLT drives because they are > low-voltage-differential. I believe that the 2940U or W or UW or U2W > (never seen one of those) were also made in a 2944 version for LVD devices. > > I have 2944 in the next slot over from a 2940UW because my other drives > are conventional interface and I use both on the same box at various times. Nope. The 2940U2W is LVD. The 2944UW is Ultra/Wide *High Voltage* Differential. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 18:40:17 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:40:17 -0400 Subject: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: <451B1266.9000204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200609261913.42232.rtellason@verizon.net> <451B1266.9000204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <451B0BE1.4010806@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Simon Fryer wrote: >>> Are you mixing wide and narrow stuff there? >> >> Yup. That would be me! Unless it is all just right - it won't work. > > That's the trouble with SCSI standards - there's just too many of them :-) > > I've ended up with two separate SCSI HBAs in my home PC; one to run the > internal U160 devices and internal UW devices, then another to run the > internal narrow devices and the external UW devices. There are single boards that will do all that. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 27 18:40:55 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:40:55 -0400 Subject: 2940 Taxonomy; was: Re: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609271940.55957.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 27 September 2006 06:55 pm, Billy Pettit wrote: > SCA 80 pin has a lot of adaptors to go to/from 68 pin. I even have an old > Apple system using an SCA drive on a 50 pin bus via an adaptor PCB. If > using SCA, key point to remember is that power is inside the 80 pin > connector. SCA drives don't normally have the legacy 4 pin Molex power > connector. I have one or two drives like that, with nothing but the 80-pin connector, and the last time I looked (not at all recently) there seemed to be quite a number of them offered as surplus. However, the adapters I was finding online at that point in time were priced in such a way to make those drives not a very good deal... At some point perhaps I'll luck out and get a hold of a box that's set up for those drives, or something. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 27 18:54:36 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:54:36 -0400 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:51:06 PDT." Message-ID: <200609272354.k8RNsaua008706@mwave.heeltoe.com> David Griffith wrote: > >Have you considered http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/? They have a free >(beer) app with which you design any sort of panel you like. Then you >upload the design file and get a panel in the post anywhere from one day >to a week or two later. yes, but ah, 19" panel would (as we say in boston), "wicked expensive". I use FPE for prototypes and I *love* their work but it's not cheap. It does look *very* nice, however. I love the lettering. I could swear I've seen pre-cut 19" panels with DB25 cutouts. If someone figures out where I'll grab a few to tidy up the cables in my racks. -brad From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 27 19:07:23 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 128s and SX-64 In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Sep 20, 2006 08:02:53 AM Message-ID: <200609280007.k8S07NsI009651@onyx.spiritone.com> > Why do SX64's only ever come up on the wrong side of the pond? :) I'm on the right side of the pond, but they don't come up in my part of the country. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 27 19:09:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:09:14 -0500 Subject: Paper tape Utilities/Images References: <200609051254.k85CsSGO020122@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <05c201c6e292$559a8390$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Dave wrote..... > I have posted the utilities I created to read paper tapes to my site in > the > Software/Images section (near the bottom of the main page): ...snip... PTR/PTC ...snip... Dave.... have you considered supporting serially attached paper tape reader/punches instead of just parallel devices? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 27 19:10:43 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:10:43 -0500 Subject: HP 110+ References: Message-ID: <05c901c6e292$8a394730$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... > Not what you're asking, but I think I have it on paper. I certainly have > the technical reference and service manuals for this machine (aka > 'Portable Plus'), so if there's something I can easily look up I will do > so. No, I'm just not familiar with them at all, and have a working one now. Was just looking for a good owners manual type document to give me an overview of operation, options, accessories, etc. Most of it is obvious and intuitive, but I like reading the manual where possible as little gems here and there would be found that I wouldn't discern on my own otherwise. Thanks! Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 20:19:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 02:19:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 28, 6 11:22:21 am Message-ID: > > How about getting a sheet of aluminium and cutting suitable holes in it > > for the connecotrs. It doesn't that _that_ long.... > > It goes _really_ fast with a D-shaped Greenlee punch. They are > expensive, but make a nice, clean mounting hole in aluminum and > plastic (not so good for steel). In the UK, similar punches are sold by RS components, I have no idea who really makes them. They are expensive (about \pounds 100 each), but do a great job. I invested in the DB sized one (all I can really justify), and never regretted it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 20:31:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 02:31:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 110+ In-Reply-To: <05c901c6e292$8a394730$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Sep 27, 6 07:10:43 pm Message-ID: > No, I'm just not familiar with them at all, and have a working one now. Was > just looking for a good owners manual type document to give me an overview > of operation, options, accessories, etc. A few genral comments... The most important accessory is a 9114 disk drive. This links up to the HPIL port (do you know anything about HPIL?). Without it you're trusting the RAM disk.. The battery will almost certainly need changing. It's a 6V, 2.5-ish Ah lead-acid thing, eitehr a block battery (normal) or 3 Cyclon cells in series (easier to get now, and shown in the service manual). I can talk you through getting the battery in and out -- do NOT follow the procedure in the service manual (and the one normally recomended) which involves bending the metal connecting strap. Well, not unless you have some spares... What 'drawers' do you have, if any. These slot in the bottom sides of the mackine, to get them out, undo the obvious 2 screws (heads take either a Torx (T8? or flat screwdriver), slide the drawer towards the side of the machien, and lift out. You may have 'dummy drawers' (just 2 pins shorted together to tell the machine there's something there, it won't power up otherwise), Other common ones include a RAM drawer (row upon row of SMD 6264s..) and a 'software drawer' which takes EPROMs. I know I have the format for said EPROMs, I may have the software to make them, I can check. The DE9 connector is an RS232 port, but it's not the same pinout as a PC/AT one. I can find the connecitons if you need them. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 27 22:12:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:12:24 -0700 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609272012240353.1C5B7A7E@10.0.0.252> On 9/28/2006 at 2:19 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >In the UK, similar punches are sold by RS components, I have no idea who >really makes them. They are expensive (about \pounds 100 each), but do a >great job. I invested in the DB sized one (all I can really justify), and >never regretted it... I've got a set of Greenlee punches, but for many things (DB-type cutouts included), it's easier to use nibbler. Drill a hole large enough to fit the bit, and just nibble away. Cheap manual nibblers (about $10) work, but are a little hard on the hand after awhile, particularly if you've got heavy gauge sheet metal. If you've got a compressed air supply, you can pick up a pneumatic nibbler for about $30 from your local cheap Chinese tool store (e.g. Harbor Freight). These can make just about any shape hole in sheet metal up to 14 gauge very quickly and easily. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 22:19:10 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:19:10 +1200 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: <200609272012240353.1C5B7A7E@10.0.0.252> References: <200609272012240353.1C5B7A7E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 9/28/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Cheap manual nibblers (about $10) work, but are a little hard on the hand > after awhile, particularly if you've got heavy gauge sheet metal. And I've broken cheap RS nibblers on thick aluminum... they are OK for plastic and really thin sheet. > If you've got a compressed air supply, you can pick up a pneumatic nibbler > for about $30 from your local cheap Chinese tool store (e.g. Harbor > Freight). These can make just about any shape hole in sheet metal up to 14 > gauge very quickly and easily. Ooh... I gots to get me one of those... -ethan From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Sep 27 23:35:19 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 21:35:19 -0700 Subject: 2940 Taxonomy; was: Re: SCSI cable needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <451B5107.90608@msm.umr.edu> Billy Pettit wrote: >Roger Merchberger wrote: > > >Ah, no. The latest transfer rate is Ultra 320 - it's been out for at least >a few years now. > > I guess I was skewing it to the requirements for the list (though two years to go to qualify). I have not seen much of the 320 stuff out there, probably still in use, or not much there. I think that a lot of other technologies have pretty much killed off the Parallel 320 scsi anyway. I don't expect to see much in my 10 year old pile (in 2016). I just tossed a Q/Logic FC/AL card in the pile for future reference. I should get a manual archived while the getting's good. Sorry for drifting this into a rathole and a bit off topic. Maybe should discuss in private email if any others want to continue the discussion. Jim From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 28 00:55:53 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 01:55:53 -0400 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: References: <200609272012240353.1C5B7A7E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200609280155.53871.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 27 September 2006 11:19 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/28/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Cheap manual nibblers (about $10) work, but are a little hard on the hand > > after awhile, particularly if you've got heavy gauge sheet metal. > > And I've broken cheap RS nibblers on thick aluminum... they are OK for > plastic and really thin sheet. There was just a flurry of activity about those with a fellow in Austria wanting to get his hands on some of them, and that eventually being worked out. I'm not remembering why they broke, but I know I broke several of those when I first got one -- the spec in the catalog at that time said they were good on up to 16 ga. steel, and the box I was trying to nibble (also from RS :-) said it was 16 ga. steel, which I was happy to point out to them. The one I ended up with since was able to cut out the rectangular hole I wanted and has since done nicely with aluminum miniboxes and such, though I haven't stressed it much since that original stress test. > > If you've got a compressed air supply, you can pick up a pneumatic > > nibbler for about $30 from your local cheap Chinese tool store (e.g. > > Harbor Freight). These can make just about any shape hole in sheet metal > > up to 14 gauge very quickly and easily. > > Ooh... I gots to get me one of those... A compressed air supply? Sounds good to me, though I haven't figured out yet where I'm gonna put one in this second floor apartment. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Sep 28 05:49:15 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 05:49:15 -0500 Subject: Paper tape Utilities/Images In-Reply-To: <05c201c6e292$559a8390$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200609280941.k8S9fUT6016675@hosting.monisys.ca> > Dave wrote..... > > I have posted the utilities I created to read paper tapes to my site in > > the Software/Images section (near the bottom of the main page): > ...snip... PTR/PTC ...snip... > > Dave.... have you considered supporting serially attached paper tape > reader/punches instead of just parallel devices? Hi Jay, I'd be happy to ... but I don't have a serial reader, so I need info on the details of the interface (does it just send the raw serial stream as read from the tape or is there some protocol around it). If you can provide interface details and are willing to test the results, I would be happy to add support to my little PTR utility. Btw, I've just received a list of tapes that are available to me - I hope to archive all of them, however if anyone really wants any specific titles, please let me know and I will try and get them done more quickly. Technical Design Labs ===================== ZAPPLE Z-80 2K Monitor, Technical Design Labs, 1976 ZAPPLE Z-80 Monitor, v.1.1, Technical Design Labs, 1976 'ZAP' Z-80 1-K Monitor, v. 2.0, Technical Design Labs, 1977 TDL Memory Test, v. 1.0, Technical Design Labs TDL Z-80 Text Editor, Technical Design Labs, 1977 Z-80 Macro Assembler, Technical Design Labs, 1976 TDL (Z-80) 8-K BASIC, Technical Design Labs, 1977 Text Output Processor, v. 1.0, Technical Design Labs, 1977 IMSAI ===== SLS-1, Rev. 2, IMSAI, 1977 IMSAI BOOTSTRAP LOADER, 1977 SC/MP ===== SCASP, SCASM 1976 IMP-16L/P ========= Edit16, NS Microprocessor software, 1976 Genldr, NS Microprocessor software, 1975 Debug, NS Microprocessor software, 1975 PROM, NS Microprocessor software, 1976 MEMDI, NS Microprocessor software, 1976 SORT, NS Microprocessor software, 1976 (for 16P) STTYIO, NS Microprocessor software, 1975 IMPASP. IMPPASM, NS Microprocessor software, 1976 CPUXDI, NS Microprocessor software, 1976 CEDIT16, NS Microprocessor software, 1975 CROMEMCO ======== Kaleidoscope, by Li-Chen Wan, Cromemco Dazzler Software Dazzler Doodle, Cromemco 1976 Spacewar, Cromemco, 1976 Cromemco Track Cromemco Tic Tac Toe Tank War, 1977 Chase!, by Ed Hall, Cromemco Dazzler Software Dazzlewriter, by Ed Hall, Cromemco Dazzler Software Dazzlewriter 512, by Dwight Eqbert, Cromemco Dazzler Soft Dazzlemation, by Steve Dompier, Dazzler Software Magenta Martini, by Steve Dompier, Dazzler Software Life, ver. 2.0, by Ed Hall, Cromemco Dazzler Software Cromemco Z80 Monitorm 1977 Unknown (most likely for National Semi.) ======================================== TTY Master PACE 10, PACE CA, PACE Cross Assembler, 1976 TTY Master: Debug C CEDIT 16, CASM 16 IMPAS P, IMPAS M 8K Object Edit 16, IMP -16L-P, 1976 TTY Master: GENLOR Rev. E OBJECT TAPE: OEB466 SPROM, 1976 SPRSFT, 1976 GENLOR, rev. E, OBJECT TAPE Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Sep 28 04:53:31 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:53:31 +0100 Subject: Commodore 128s and SX-64 In-Reply-To: References: <87F87D4B-C54C-45F9-96FD-B90CC16FBDCB@mac.com> Message-ID: On 9/20/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 20/9/06 01:54, "Alvin DeBord" wrote: > > > I have two complete Systems with Manuals, Printers, and quite a bit > > of software. Don't use them anymore and need to give them a new home. > > Mike in Ottawa, Ontario suggested I contact you. If you can help me > > sell these, I would highly appreciate it. > > > > Why do SX64's only ever come up on the wrong side of the pond? :) It's only the size of a modern-ish oscilloscope, it's not *that* hard to ship... As opposed to, say, a Tektronix 547. Good luck shipping one of those ;) From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Thu Sep 28 05:03:38 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:03:38 +1200 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20060904220145.04ae7190@pop3.paradise.net.nz> References: <6.1.2.0.1.20060904220145.04ae7190@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Re Sipke's xgistor.ath.cx website and his National Semiconductor SC/MP (Scamp) CPU emulator, thanks for the replies I've had so far. I've collected up many of the files formerly from his site and created an "echo" of his site (not a "mirror" as it is rather incomplete and the original doesn't exist any more), I've located it at "xgistor-echo.ath.cx". I've presumed he wouldn't have objected as I couldn't find any mention of usage restrictions in any of the pages from his site. The SC/MP page is now complete (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/scmp.htm), but I've seen no sign of his SC/MP emulator and would dearly love to see a copy. The emulator was in a file called Scmp09.zip 1.3MB (the only other info I've got is that one of the minor files in it was called "Broil.asm"). There was also a SC/MP NIBL emulator by Henri Mason, the relevant files were: niblinfo.tif, niblroms.zip, scmphenri.zip. The other major loss is the diagrams on his TI59 calculator page (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/ti59.htm), again this appears to be unique material not available anywhere else. The files there were called TI59-Diag+psu-in-eps.zip, TI59-PSU.zip, TI59annotation-8.zip, Ti59Diagram0401.zip, ti59-Emu-v11.exe, ti59blokdiagram.jpg, ti59corechips.jpg, ti59diagram.jpg, ti59scandiagram.jpg, ti59clocktiming.jpg, ti59psu.jpg, ti59cmplx.jpg I would really appreciate any help in recovering copies of these files (if you can help but are reading this posting from the archives years later, and the echo website still doesn't contain the mentioned files, please contact me :-) Tony. At 22:30 4/09/2006, I wrote: >... >I have been looking for Sipke de Wal's SC/MP emulator and of course found >the note about his death in 2004 >(http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2004-May/041480.html). > >... he had a lot of interesting pages and downloads many relating to old >computers and processors. There are still many sites on the internet that >link to his website that hasn't existed for 2 years now. > >It seems a pity that all that work has now disappeared when the storage >requirements and bandwidth, to maintain such a site, are quite modest. ... From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 28 05:17:52 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:17:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 128s and SX-64 In-Reply-To: References: <87F87D4B-C54C-45F9-96FD-B90CC16FBDCB@mac.com> Message-ID: <42463.135.196.233.27.1159438672.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Thu, September 28, 2006 10:53 am, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com said: >> Why do SX64's only ever come up on the wrong side of the pond? :) > > It's only the size of a modern-ish oscilloscope, it's not *that* hard to > ship... > > As opposed to, say, a Tektronix 547. Good luck shipping one of those ;) They're heavy things though, which ups the cost somewhat even for shipping by boat.... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From gkaufman at the-planet.org Thu Sep 28 06:33:16 2006 From: gkaufman at the-planet.org (Gary E Kaufman) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 07:33:16 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 37, Issue 55 In-Reply-To: <200609280955.k8S9tJlX016512@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609280955.k8S9tJlX016512@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <451BB2FC.6000709@the-planet.org> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > By 'out', I assume you mean towards higher numbered tracks -- that is > with the head closer to the spindle. Yup, sorry - typically the worse errors are after track 50ish. > I can see no obvious reason why you'd get more errors on inner tracks if > the alignment was off. The errors would be on all tracks I would think. > Unless your leadscrew is so warn that the head is not properly postiioned > (I have _never_ seen that happen). > > A worn/dirty head might give more errors on the inner tracks where the > bit density is higher (shorter tracks), though > Thanks, all very good thoughts! - Gary From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Sep 28 09:22:06 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:22:06 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Need 4 Gig RAM for your HP9000? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060928101706.05fb54b0@mail.30below.com> Under 10 years old I'd guess, but hopefully I won't get lambasted due to the "kewlness" factor... Dunno if it's a "great" deal or anything, I know nada about HP9K systems, but if you just hafta have 4 Gig of RAM in yours... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140009204616 Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Sep 28 10:46:34 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:46:34 -0500 Subject: OT: You know you've been reading classiccmp too much when... In-Reply-To: <200607210835.k6L8ZUOB002593@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200607210835.k6L8ZUOB002593@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, night before last, I dreamed someone was showing me a piece of circa 1950 or so radio gear, which was so constructed as to *accept* power via a standard 120V wall socket built into its back. The problem with that arrangement is that it implied the existence of a "power adapter cord" with a normal 120V wall plug (with two exposed blades) on either end. As soon as this piece of gear was shown to my dream incarnation, I started yelling "No! NO! That shouldn't exist!" and trying to take a big pair of shears to it to eliminate the safety hazard. I remember the museum curator, or whoever was showing me this, looking displeased just before I woke up, and my wife, looking displeased just after I (and she) woke up. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 28 10:58:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:58:10 -0700 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: <200609280155.53871.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609272012240353.1C5B7A7E@10.0.0.252> <200609280155.53871.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200609280858100974.1F189327@10.0.0.252> On 9/28/2006 at 1:55 AM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I'm not remembering why they broke, but I know I broke several of those >when I first got one -- the spec in the catalog at that time said they were >good on up to 16 ga. steel, and the box I was trying to nibble (also from RS >said it was 16 ga. steel, which I was happy to point out to them. The >one I ended up with since was able to cut out the rectangular hole I wanted and >has since done nicely with aluminum miniboxes and such, though I haven't >stressed it much since that original stress test. Well, there are tools from RS and then there are good tools. A Klein 76011B nibbler still costs less than $20 and is a *much* better tool for the money. Cheers, Chuck From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Sep 28 11:05:07 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 12:05:07 -0400 Subject: Data I/O Model 29 info? In-Reply-To: <200609270202.k8R22rFE020412@hosting.monisys.ca> References: Message-ID: <200609281605.k8SG5B6x006024@mail.bcpl.net> On 26 Sep 2006 at 22:10, Dave Dunfield wrote: > But I've never had a Logicpak before - need docs! I've temporarily posted eight LogicPak and adapter documents at: http://www.bcpl.net/~dbryan/dropbox/dataio/ ...including the operator's manuals for the LogicPak and the 303A-011A adapter. Hopefully, they'll move to Bitsavers permanently. > Q1: All of the adapters seem to work (pass self test > on both logicpak modules, except for the 303A-011A > which works only on the V04-008 (self-test hangs on > the other one) - is this normal? The 011A adapter only works with V04 and later. This is in the 011A manual. I have no information or knowledge regarding your remaining questions. -- Dave From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 28 07:49:17 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:49:17 -0400 Subject: Paper tape Utilities/Images Message-ID: <0J6A00KIFZM64P80@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Paper tape Utilities/Images > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 05:49:15 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Dave wrote..... >> > I have posted the utilities I created to read paper tapes to my site in >> > the Software/Images section (near the bottom of the main page): >> ...snip... PTR/PTC ...snip... >> >> Dave.... have you considered supporting serially attached paper tape >> reader/punches instead of just parallel devices? > >Hi Jay, > >I'd be happy to ... but I don't have a serial reader, so I need info on >the details of the interface (does it just send the raw serial stream as >read from the tape or is there some protocol around it). Dave, Most of the serial PTR/PTP I used were not unlike the ASR33, The only protocal was the usual; start and stop bits of serial comms. So for every byte read by the reader you got a byte in serial form. It's just a stream of chars (7 or 8bit) as punched on the tape. Reminder, leader on most of those will be read as zeros so the average tape will have a long line of zeros preceeding the content. There was one I'd used (deep memory test ca1977) that used the CTS line on the serial output to a corospnding line on the serial input (both for punch and reader) as hardware flow control (their manual called it hardware restraint). For that case CTS gated read(send bytes) no read and for the punch case CTS gated the hosts ability to send the next byte until the punch was ready for the next character. This was only needed for slow (read case) hosts that could not accept the 300cps read or a fast (relative) host that could over run the 75cps punch. Oddly enough the unit (punch reader was Remex with custom third party board) only had 4800 baud serial rate! Only saw one like it and the closest Remex model was parallel only. That's the hardware.. The tapes them selves could be Intel hex format, Moto S records, binary, ASCI text or some vendors format (relocatable binary or hex in some cases). Never minding DEC BIN and RIM formats. The oddest and is old Intel BNPF! FYI: for those not familiar that was a ROM submission format and Xasm output format. Each byte was recorded on Ptape as example: 11000011 C3h BPPNNNNPPF (yes 10 chars on tape!) 00000000 00h BNNNNNNNNF 00010000 10h BNNNPNNNNF The small advanatage is human readable. It was self cehcking at the char level as anything other than BNPF was invalid. I was wasy to do a simple reader needed only to sense three holes (sprocket and two bits) to discern if the character was B,N,P or F making it very easy to serialize. I had to do that back in '74 as a lab EE for a controller (8008 based) project. Allison From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Sep 28 12:45:58 2006 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:45:58 +0100 Subject: Commodore 128s and SX-64 In-Reply-To: <200609280007.k8S07NsI009651@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200609280007.k8S07NsI009651@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5bd7865cdee87a143bc12191d64c5524@mac.com> I bought one on Ebay.co.uk a few months ago on a buy it now for 50 pounds. It was sold as non working. A replacement PLA chip from a donor c64 had it working again.. On 28 Sep 2006, at 01:07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Why do SX64's only ever come up on the wrong side of the pond? :) > > I'm on the right side of the pond, but they don't come up in my part > of the > country. > > Zane > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 28 13:16:16 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:16:16 -0400 Subject: Commodore 128s and SX-64 In-Reply-To: References: <87F87D4B-C54C-45F9-96FD-B90CC16FBDCB@mac.com> Message-ID: <200609281416.16749.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 28 September 2006 05:53, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > On 9/20/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 20/9/06 01:54, "Alvin DeBord" wrote: > > > I have two complete Systems with Manuals, Printers, and quite a > > > bit of software. Don't use them anymore and need to give them a > > > new home. Mike in Ottawa, Ontario suggested I contact you. If > > > you can help me sell these, I would highly appreciate it. > > > > Why do SX64's only ever come up on the wrong side of the pond? :) > > It's only the size of a modern-ish oscilloscope, it's not *that* hard > to ship... > > As opposed to, say, a Tektronix 547. Good luck shipping one of those > ;) As someone who's shipped out racks that have weighed 2150lbs packed (and racmount things that have weighed 300+lbs each), I can say that while "not fun to do a lot", shipping ANY Tekky scope doesn't scare me that much, unless its size is more than a couple of racks of stuff... :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Sep 28 13:28:56 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:28:56 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 available in UK Message-ID: <451C1468.4060703@gifford.co.uk> I've just been sent this e-mail about a VAX4000 in Luton: > From Jez Higgins via accu-general list. > > Just received this from a friend of mine. If anyone's interest, > please contact me offlist. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: 'ere, fancy this? > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 09:32:47 +0100 (BST) > > Need an answer asap - any interest in a gratis VAX4000 with three > external optical drives? Deadline - I need to know by Sunday night as > disposal is Monday morning. > > ----------------------------------- > > I don't have any further information at the moment. The machine > itself is probably in the Luton area. I'm trying to find out if > it works :) > > Jez I have no more info about this thing than the above. Probably best to reply directly to Jez Higgins, at the e-mail shown. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 28 14:44:44 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:44:44 +1200 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> References: <6.1.2.0.1.20060904220145.04ae7190@pop3.paradise.net.nz> <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: On 9/28/06, Tony Wills wrote: > > Re Sipke's xgistor.ath.cx website and his National Semiconductor SC/MP > (Scamp) CPU emulator, thanks for the replies I've had so far. I've > collected up many of the files formerly from his site and created an "echo" > of his site... > The SC/MP page is now complete (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/scmp.htm), but > I've seen no sign of his SC/MP emulator and would dearly love to see a > copy. The emulator was in a file called Scmp09.zip 1.3MB Thanks for doing this. I did have a look and did not happen to snag a copy of the emulator in years past, but I probably should have, given that I have multiple INS8073 systems. Since folks are digging around for SC/MP stuff, does anyone have a disassembler? I'm trying to dig into some INS8073 firmware and would rather not a) do it by hand with an instruction set listing, or b) write a disassembler from scratch. I'd prefer a UNIX-compatible disassembler, but could use a DOS one if that's all there is out there. Thanks again, Tony, for recovering a great resource. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 28 14:49:52 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:49:52 +1200 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: <200609280155.53871.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200609272012240353.1C5B7A7E@10.0.0.252> <200609280155.53871.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/28/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 27 September 2006 11:19 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > And I've broken cheap RS nibblers on thick aluminum... they are OK for > > plastic and really thin sheet. > > I'm not remembering why they broke, but I know I broke several of those when > I first got one -- the spec in the catalog at that time said they were good > on up to 16 ga. steel, and the box I was trying to nibble (also from RS :-) > said it was 16 ga. steel, which I was happy to point out to them. Yeah... I don't remember that I was doing anything that was off the spec, but when the tool broke, I can't say I was surprised. > > > If you've got a compressed air supply, you can pick up a pneumatic > > > nibbler for about $30 from your local cheap Chinese tool store (e.g. > > > Harbor Freight). These can make just about any shape hole in sheet metal > > > up to 14 gauge very quickly and easily. > > > > Ooh... I gots to get me one of those... > > A compressed air supply? Sounds good to me, though I haven't figured out yet > where I'm gonna put one in this second floor apartment. :-) I already have the compressed air (I got it to fill tractor tires, drive a pneumatic nail gun, etc.). I just need to go out and get the pneumatic nibbler tool itself. I've seen pneumatic shears, etc., but don't do enough work with sheet metal to justify that - I didn't consider that a nibbler is an obvious tool to drive with air. -ethan From ian at viemeister.com Thu Sep 28 12:32:46 2006 From: ian at viemeister.com (Ian Viemeister) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 13:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: You know you've been reading classiccmp too much when... In-Reply-To: References: <200607210835.k6L8ZUOB002593@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Mark Tapley wrote: > *accept* power via a standard 120V wall socket built into its back. > The problem with that arrangement is that it implied the existence of > a "power adapter cord" with a normal 120V wall plug (with two exposed > blades) on either end. Not just a bad dream -- I've seen this done. Once. An ISP "datacenter" where the previous guy apparently had the "brillant" idea of "power patch cables". (Hey, it works for networks, right?) The servers were all plugged into one of those long metal power strips bolted to a wire rack. The power feed for these ran to a piece of plywood with lots of standard wall outlets mounted on it. The wall outlets had their screw terminals wired to the input wires of the power strips. Fairly long double-male power cords were then plugged in between the plywood/outlet "patch panel" and various UPSes and wall outlets. ie: (Wall outlet) =------= (Outlet)------(Outlet) =------(Server) Because the double-headed power cords were so long, and running behind the racks, it took some time to realize exactly how this was all hooked up. > As soon as this piece of gear was shown to my dream > incarnation, I started yelling "No! NO! That shouldn't exist!" and > trying to take a big pair of shears to it to eliminate the safety > hazard. And that was basically my reaction -- it went rather like this: 1) Hmmm... which UPS is this plugged into? 2) Hey, that's odd... 3) Oh that's not good at all! 4) Attention! We will be having an unscheduled server outage. 5) Pull breaker 6) Take picture (I'll have to scan the polaroid the next time I find it) 7) Lots of rewiring and cutting cables in half. I *wish* it had only been a bad dream. --Ian From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Sep 28 15:11:40 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:11:40 -0500 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001c6e33a$4fb88960$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Thanks guys, I think I'd rather pay the money to frontpanelexpress and not worry about screwing it up. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:50 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Transition panels and racking > > On 9/28/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Wednesday 27 September 2006 11:19 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > And I've broken cheap RS nibblers on thick aluminum... > they are OK > > > for plastic and really thin sheet. > > > > I'm not remembering why they broke, but I know I broke several of > > those when I first got one -- the spec in the catalog at that time > > said they were good on up to 16 ga. steel, and the box I > was trying > > to nibble (also from RS :-) said it was 16 ga. steel, > which I was happy to point out to them. > > Yeah... I don't remember that I was doing anything that was > off the spec, but when the tool broke, I can't say I was surprised. > > > > > If you've got a compressed air supply, you can pick up > a pneumatic > > > > nibbler for about $30 from your local cheap Chinese > tool store (e.g. > > > > Harbor Freight). These can make just about any shape hole in > > > > sheet metal up to 14 gauge very quickly and easily. > > > > > > Ooh... I gots to get me one of those... > > > > A compressed air supply? Sounds good to me, though I > haven't figured > > out yet where I'm gonna put one in this second floor apartment. :-) > > I already have the compressed air (I got it to fill tractor > tires, drive a pneumatic nail gun, etc.). I just need to go > out and get the pneumatic nibbler tool itself. > I've seen pneumatic shears, etc., but don't do enough work > with sheet metal to justify that - I didn't consider that a > nibbler is an obvious tool to drive with air. > > -ethan > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 28 15:37:51 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 13:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: <001001c6e33a$4fb88960$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <001001c6e33a$4fb88960$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Thanks guys, I think I'd rather pay the money to frontpanelexpress and not > worry about screwing it up. I have a front panel for a rackmount synthesizer from them. There's no way I'd be able to make something by hand that looks as good as it does. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Sep 28 15:41:41 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 21:41:41 +0100 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <002501c6e33e$835c0040$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Tony Wills wrote: > The SC/MP page is now complete (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/scmp.htm), > but I've seen no sign of his SC/MP emulator and would dearly love to > see a copy. The emulator was in a file called Scmp09.zip 1.3MB (the > only other info I've got is that one of the minor files in it was > called "Broil.asm"). I tried briefly to look at the Wayback Machine (archive.org) but they don't seem to have the specific pages I searched for. Interestingly, after a little bit of poking you can get here: http://web.archive.org/web/*sr_241nr_30/http://xgistor.ath.cx/* where the 2nd item seems to be the SCMP page (or the associated download page). Click on that link and it tells you they don't have it. Click on the _next_ link (http://web.archive.org/web/20041106203543/xgistor.ath.cx/files/Emulator /SCMP/?C=D) and you get SCMP09.zip. Sadly, that too is unavailable. In fact, none of the pages there seem to be around. I don't know how that might be: a robots.txt would have prevented indexing in the first place, and a "please remove this" request usually ends up telling you that happened. Obviously wiping the source page should not make things vanish either (otherwise why bother with the Wayback machine?). So I'm stumped. :-( Antonio From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 28 16:38:12 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:38:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) Message-ID: <200609282138.k8SLcCWo052776@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, I thought some of you might be interested in Pauls experiments. Has anyone here conducted similar experiments? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- Paul Panks wrote: The third phase of the now infamous '5.25" Diskette Experiments' have been completed. These experiments began back in 2003 and are in their third (and thankfully final) installment. I did the tests this evening and came to some (not surprising) conclusions. Here were the three tests: The Diskette Experiments, Phase III ---------------------------------- The Test Disks -------------- I used three separate test disks, one for each of the three tests. On Track 17-0 through 15-5 was placed a 61 block file (15,419 bytes), Cleve Blakemore's Dark Fortress (typed in from the January 1987 issue of Ahoy! magazine). On Track 19-0 through 22-1 was placed a 61 block file, the same aforementioned Cleve Blakemore game. The desire was to have two reasonably sized programs as the first two programs on disk, occupying an aggregate total of 122 disk blocks. The tests would determine three things about each disk: 1) Could a disk still be read by the disk drive? 2) If so, could the original data (both programs) be read and verified without a single bit error? 3) Thirdly, could the disk then be formatted and a simple read/write performed to it? The results of the tests are as follows, with some surprises: Drunk Disk ---------- The original test was going to be beer (1/2 cup) and water (1/2 cup) for thirty minutes. This test was later modified from using beer to oatmeal (1 package), non-fat dry milk (1/2 cup) and water (three 8 oz. cups), mixed in a bowl, which I then let stand for thirty minutes. The disk was then removed and allowed to quickly dry via a paper towel, wiped gently against both sides. The result was a disk that did not read, as the internal mylar floppy could very barely be moved by force from side to side by this person (more than any of the experiments, the oatmeal, water and dry milk mixture really stuck the disk to the jacket quite solidly). Conclusion: The disk is unreadable due to a physical (non-bit) failure of the disk jacket and internal disk mylar heavily sticking to the jacket itself. The Hot and Cold Affair ----------------------- This test called for putting ice cubes on the front side of the disk, while simultaneously holding the back side of the disk over a stovetop range at Medium heat (held approximately 3/4th of a foot from the surface of the stovetop due to overwhelming heat and potential hand burn considerations). The disk was held over the surface for a period of ten (10) minutes, while carefully juggling the ice cubes on the 1st surface simultaneously. The disk was allowed to cool for a period of 20 minutes, then read. The result was a disk that did not read, as the internal mylar floppy could barely be moved by force from side to side by this person. Conclusion: The disk is unreadable due to a physical (non-bit) failure of the disk jacket and internal disk mylar semi-sticking to the jacket itself. The Walk About -------------- This round of testing required walking on a disk using three separate shoes, using moderate pressure, for a period of 1 minute each. The shoes were: two business dress-style shoes, with small platform-like heels, and golf shoes (non-metal spikes used). The disk was walked on using moderate pressure and substituting each shoe for 20 seconds each, for a total of 1 minute aggregate time. The disk was then immediately read by the disk drive. The result was a disk that did not read, as the internal mylar floppy could barely be moved (though easier than the first experiment) by force from side to side by this person. Conclusion: The disk is unreadable due to a physical (non-bit) failure of the disk jacket and internal disk mylar semi-sticking to the jacket itself. Experiment Phase III Conclusions -------------------------------- The disks were a total loss, as the experiment never progressed beyond the first question asked ("Could a disk still be read by the disk drive ?"). Disks are not impervious to permanent and irreversible physical damage from oatmeal, milk, water, heat ( >= 250 degrees F ), ice cubes, shoes and golf spikes. It is strongly recommended by this person that end users strictly avoid such implements (as described above) when at, near or around a floppy disk or drive. Paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 28 17:05:26 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:05:26 +1200 Subject: KIM-1 7-segment font? Message-ID: I'm prototyping an LED display thingie and was trying to find a representation of how folks used to do letters on a 7-segment display. The two historical examples I came up with were the KIM-1 and a Byte magazine article between about 1977 and 1981. I know there are several modern Windows fonts out there, but as they differ somewhat, I was hoping to be compatible with what was commonly done in the late 1970s. To that end, does anyone have some representation of the KIM's 7-segment renderings or does anyone have a pointer to that old Byte article about displaying ASCII on 7-segment displays? Thanks, -ethan From safehaus at webhart.net Thu Sep 28 17:35:01 2006 From: safehaus at webhart.net (Greg Purvis) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:35:01 -0400 Subject: Identifying CCTALK in my email queue In-Reply-To: References: <001001c6e33a$4fb88960$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <451C4E15.1070907@webhart.net> Hi. I just joined. I subscribe to PC BUILD as well. Each message that arrives is prefixed [PC BUILD]. Maybe CCTalk could do the same thing. It would sure help, as I clear the queue of daily spam. Cheers Greg P. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 28 17:20:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:20:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 128s and SX-64 In-Reply-To: from "listmailgoeshere@gmail.com" at Sep 28, 6 10:53:31 am Message-ID: > As opposed to, say, a Tektronix 547. Good luck shipping one of those ;) And a 555 is twice as bad :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 28 17:19:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:19:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 28, 6 03:19:10 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/28/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Cheap manual nibblers (about $10) work, but are a little hard on the hand > > after awhile, particularly if you've got heavy gauge sheet metal. > > And I've broken cheap RS nibblers on thick aluminum... they are OK for > plastic and really thin sheet. A word of explanation (I hope). To you, 'RS' means 'Radio Shack', right? And they sell mostly to hobbyists. In the UK, 'RS' is 'RS Components' [1], who used to be known as 'Radiospares'. Although they dropped that name about 35 years ago, most older engineers and scientists will still use it. Now RS components sell mostly to trade/industrial customers (they will now supply anyone, though), and their stuff _tends_ to be high quality (and is often known name-brands). The DB sized punch I bought came from RS components, not Radio Shack!. [1] Try http://www.rswww.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 28 17:26:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:26:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> from "Tony Wills" at Sep 28, 6 10:03:38 pm Message-ID: > The other major loss is the diagrams on his TI59 calculator page > (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/ti59.htm), again this appears to be unique > material not available anywhere else. The files there were called > TI59-Diag+psu-in-eps.zip, TI59-PSU.zip, TI59annotation-8.zip, > Ti59Diagram0401.zip, ti59-Emu-v11.exe, ti59blokdiagram.jpg, > ti59corechips.jpg, ti59diagram.jpg, ti59scandiagram.jpg, > ti59clocktiming.jpg, ti59psu.jpg, ti59cmplx.jpg It's not the same thing, but, being graphically-challenged on this PC, I made notes of the pinouts of the ICs, etc, from said files by hand in a notebook. I still have that, and could type in said pinouts (which would be a great help to anyone trying to recreate the files by reverse-engineering a TI59 or whatever). If the originals don't turn up anywhere, let me know and I'll get typing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 28 17:39:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:39:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) In-Reply-To: <200609282138.k8SLcCWo052776@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Sep 28, 6 04:38:12 pm Message-ID: [...] > The Diskette Experiments, Phase III > ---------------------------------- > > The Test Disks > -------------- [...] > Drunk Disk > ---------- [...] > Conclusion: The disk is unreadable due to a > physical (non-bit) failure of the disk jacket > and internal disk mylar heavily sticking to the > jacket itself. My first reaction would the to open up one side of the jacket, slide out the disk (and keep it the right way up!), clean the surface of said disk and then either 'mount a naked floppy' or use a spare jacket. It would be interesting to know if the data could be recovered if you did that (in all 3 cases). -tony From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 28 17:43:56 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:43:56 -0400 Subject: Identifying CCTALK in my email queue In-Reply-To: <451C4E15.1070907@webhart.net> Message-ID: <001d01c6e34f$950a9ca0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> That's been discussed a trillion times before. Just filter your mail by the header term "classiccmp" into a different folder. -----Original Message----- From: Greg Purvis [mailto:safehaus at webhart.net] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Identifying CCTALK in my email queue Hi. I just joined. I subscribe to PC BUILD as well. Each message that arrives is prefixed [PC BUILD]. Maybe CCTalk could do the same thing. It would sure help, as I clear the queue of daily spam. Cheers Greg P. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 28 17:48:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:48:17 -0700 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: <001001c6e33a$4fb88960$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <001001c6e33a$4fb88960$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200609281548160992.2090070E@10.0.0.252> On 9/28/2006 at 3:11 PM Julian Wolfe wrote: >Thanks guys, I think I'd rather pay the money to frontpanelexpress and not >worry about screwing it up. Golly--and here I thought we were talking about (rather large) transition panels... Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 28 17:55:07 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:55:07 +1200 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/29/06, Tony Duell wrote: > I wrote: > > And I've broken cheap RS nibblers on thick aluminum... they are OK for > > plastic and really thin sheet. > > A word of explanation (I hope). To you, 'RS' means 'Radio Shack', right? > And they sell mostly to hobbyists. Yes, exactly so... sorry for the cross-cultural ambiguity. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 28 17:59:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:59:25 -0700 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609281559250257.209A397D@10.0.0.252> On 9/28/2006 at 11:19 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >A word of explanation (I hope). To you, 'RS' means 'Radio Shack', right? >And they sell mostly to hobbyists. Yes, and given the items stocked nowadays in a Radio Shack store, I haven't the faintest idea who their clientele might be. Regardless, if it's a hand nibbler you're after, Klein's the good one. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 28 18:01:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:01:58 -0700 Subject: NEC PC 98 site Message-ID: <200609281601580846.209C9173@10.0.0.252> I ran across a Japanese site that seems to specialize in selling NEC PC 9801-family items. I don't know how many 9801's ever made it to the USA, but the architecture's fairly common in the CNC machine tools world. http://www.pc98factory.com/ Cheers, Chuck From jbdigriz990 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 28 18:49:04 2006 From: jbdigriz990 at yahoo.com (James B. DiGriz) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI59 files Message-ID: <20060928234904.24524.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>The other major loss is the diagrams on his TI59 calculator page >>(http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/ti59.htm), again this appears to be unique >>material not available anywhere else. The files there were called >>TI59-Diag+psu-in-eps.zip, TI59-PSU.zip, TI59annotation-8.zip, >>Ti59Diagram0401.zip, ti59-Emu-v11.exe, ti59blokdiagram.jpg, >>ti59corechips.jpg, ti59diagram.jpg, ti59scandiagram.jpg, >>ti59clocktiming.jpg, ti59psu.jpg, ti59cmplx.jpg > > >It's not the same thing, but, being graphically-challenged on this PC, I >made notes of the pinouts of the ICs, etc, from said files by hand in a >notebook. I still have that, and could type in said pinouts (which would >be a great help to anyone trying to recreate the files by >reverse-engineering a TI59 or whatever). > >If the originals don't turn up anywhere, let me know and I'll get typing. > >-tony > I have the following files (the jpg's in the html page): ti59blokdiagram.jpg ti59corechips.jpg ti59diagram.jpg ti59scandiagram.jpg ti59clocktiming.jpg ti59psu.jpg ti59cmplx.jpg I sent Tony a private msg, waiting to hear back from him where to upload them. So I can save you that much typing, anyway :-) jbdigriz ps. Tony Wills, I do not have the files in the ftp download area, including the emulater, however. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Sep 28 18:59:55 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:59:55 -0700 Subject: KIM-1 7-segment font? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <451C61FB.2050706@dakotacom.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm prototyping an LED display thingie and was trying to find a > representation of how folks used to do letters on a 7-segment display. > The two historical examples I came up with were the KIM-1 and a Byte > magazine article between about 1977 and 1981. I know there are > several modern Windows fonts out there, but as they differ somewhat, I > was hoping to be compatible with what was commonly done in the late > 1970s. How were the displays driven? I.e., were the segments individually driven (each segment under software control) or were they driven by a "7 segment LED driver"? In the latter case, you can lookup the display pattern created by that driver chip and emulate it. In the former case, you'd need a definitive source for the patterns used. (given that, I can build you a TTF or PS font) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Sep 28 19:05:31 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:05:31 -0700 Subject: NEC PC 98 site In-Reply-To: <200609281601580846.209C9173@10.0.0.252> References: <200609281601580846.209C9173@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 9/28/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I ran across a Japanese site that seems to specialize in selling NEC PC > 9801-family items. I don't know how many 9801's ever made it to the USA, > but the architecture's fairly common in the CNC machine tools world. > > http://www.pc98factory.com/ Thanks for the link, I have a 9801 tower ? put away in the container. I think it is V30 vintage. I have some 9801VM21 manuals (in Japanese) but the machine in the pictures is a desktop that doesn't look like mine which is a tower. I also have the matching Keyboard (also Japanese) and Monitor. I think I am missing the CPU to Monitor cable which is why I have never fired it up. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rcini at optonline.net Thu Sep 28 19:08:25 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:08:25 -0400 Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals Message-ID: <005801c6e35b$62f8f610$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I'm doing research for another potential emulation project. Does anyone have a pointer to an electronic copy of the Tandy Model 2000 Programmer's Reference Manual (260-5403) and the Hardware Reference Manual (260-5404)? Alternatively, if someone has hard copies that I can make a copy of, that'd work. Thanks a lot. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 28 19:17:24 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609290019.UAA26322@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > A word of explanation (I hope). To you, 'RS' means 'Radio Shack', > right? And they sell mostly to hobbyists. Used to. Now, they sell consumer electronics apparently aimed at the mass market; they seem to have blown off the hobbyist market. At least the Radio Shacks I've seen here in Montreal. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 28 19:38:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 01:38:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: <200609281559250257.209A397D@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 28, 6 03:59:25 pm Message-ID: > Yes, and given the items stocked nowadays in a Radio Shack store, I haven't > the faintest idea who their clientele might be. Sounds like our Maplin shops. There used to be only a very few of them (3 or 4 throughout the UK), they sold nothing but electronic components, tools, and kits. And their range of components wasn't too bad (most common TTL, 4000 series CMOS, op-amps, microprocessors, etc). Now they're in just about every thown, but they sell a very cut-down range of components, a few kits (but none of their own design), and a lot of toys, Lo-Fi equipment, and that sort of thing. As I've said before it's not the loss of the more obscure stuff that's the problem -- you can order it from RS components or Farnell. It's the fact that they keep so few components (if any) in stock in the shops. So if you run out of 10k resistors, or 2N3904 transsitors, or... you probably won't get them in the local Maplin shop. -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Sep 28 19:45:40 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:45:40 -0500 Subject: SCSI taxonomy Message-ID: <3e056a99fd894aa5b5764467239f701b@valleyimplants.com> I think that F/W SCSI-II (FAST-10) predated Ultra (FAST-20) by a few years, anyway: F/W SCSI was available on the SGI Onyx (in either diff or SE) which was introduced in 1993. I'm a big fan of SCA drives + adaptors for old systems since the 50-pin drives are noticeably ancient now (most at around 1998 or before). A SCA drive + 50-pin adaptor is much newer (and 50-pin drives of any capacity (9GB+) have a substantial premium over SCA and 68-pin models. Some machines (Sun lunchboxes in particular) don't have space for a SCA drive + adaptor board, though. The latest SCSI standard (SCSI-IV I think) no longer requires drives to support 8-bit transfers and asynchronous mode. Some of the drives I've seen still do, but be warned... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 28 19:50:39 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:50:39 +1200 Subject: KIM-1 7-segment font? In-Reply-To: <451C61FB.2050706@dakotacom.net> References: <451C61FB.2050706@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On 9/29/06, Don wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I'm prototyping an LED display thingie and was trying to find a > > representation of how folks used to do letters on a 7-segment display. > > The two historical examples I came up with were the KIM-1... > > How were the displays driven? I.e., were the segments individually > driven (each segment under software control) or were they driven > by a "7 segment LED driver"? Individually driven from a 6520 port. > In the former case, you'd need a definitive source for the > patterns used. (given that, I can build you a TTF or PS font) I don't need a TTF or PS font (I'm doing a bit-mapped emulation and I already have the code done to render all possible patterns on some simulated 7-segment displays), what I need is the definitive source for the patterns. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 28 19:50:20 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:50:20 -0500 Subject: hp110+ info Message-ID: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Still can't find manuals. But here's what I know and maybe people can fill in the blanks. First info - Base model is 45711E, supposedly that designates 110+, 512k ram, & modem. The memory drawer has a model 82981A, which googling suggests is 128k ram addon. There's a metal shield over the chips and I don't have the right torq bit to remove. Upon boot all the ROM ID shows BBBBBB. First question - going into system config lets me set the memory split between main memory and edisk. All choices add up to 896k. How does that square with 128k + 512k? Second info - The PAM menu shows the following application choices - DOS CMDS, HP reflection, VT reflection, Memo Maker, Time Management, and BASIC. However, opening up the software drawer shows the following chips in the following locations 82863K-Reflection1 (0L), 45504K-MemoMaker/TimeMgt (1L), 82862K-BASIC (4L), 45555K-1/2-ExecutiveCardMgr (5H), 45555K-2/2-ExecutiveCardMgr (5L), 45548K-1/2-Lotus123 (6H), 45548K-2/2-Lotus123 (6L). Second question - I assume the PAM menu selections for HP reflection and VT reflection are handled by the single 82863K rom. I am curious why the Executive Card Manager and Lotus123 don't show up in the PAM menu? Misc. questions - The built in battery is obviously dead and won't hold a charge, as the unit won't run at all without the AC adapter. Every time I boot up though, it asks to reformat the A drive due to memory loss. More importantly, it has lost the date/time and system config settings (memory/edisk split for example). I'm curious if the date/time and config settings are kept by a different battery I may need to replace, or if all of the above is maintained by the single battery. I will have to hunt up a new battery. This 110+ is a really nice box! I'm quite fascinated by the built-into-rom HP terminal emulator (dumb terminal emulation won't do) as well as VT terminal emulator and serial port, all in a small package! Sweet! Thanks for any pointers! Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 28 23:54:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 21:54:36 -0700 Subject: NEC Bungo advertisement on YouTube Message-ID: <200609282154360882.21DF6553@10.0.0.252> Kind of cool: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0qG6uWO5HUc&search=mini-t Anyone have one of these? Cheers, Chuck From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Sep 29 01:23:38 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:23:38 -0700 Subject: hp110+ info In-Reply-To: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> (Jay West's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:50:20 -0500") References: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200609290623.k8T6NcXf028713@lots.reanimators.org> Jay West wrote: > First question - going into system config lets me set the memory split > between main memory and edisk. All choices add up to 896k. How does > that square with 128k + 512k? It doesn't. I suspect your RAM drawer has more than 128KB. > Second info - The PAM menu shows the following application choices - > DOS CMDS, HP reflection, VT reflection, Memo Maker, Time Management, > and BASIC. However, opening up the software drawer shows the following > chips in the following locations 82863K-Reflection1 (0L), > 45504K-MemoMaker/TimeMgt (1L), 82862K-BASIC (4L), > 45555K-1/2-ExecutiveCardMgr (5H), 45555K-2/2-ExecutiveCardMgr (5L), > 45548K-1/2-Lotus123 (6H), 45548K-2/2-Lotus123 (6L). > > Second question - I assume the PAM menu selections for HP reflection > and VT reflection are handled by the single 82863K rom. I am curious > why the Executive Card Manager and Lotus123 don't show up in the PAM > menu? It's all very weird. The ROMs are a mix of boot code, ROM disc data that gets merged into the B: drive, and executable code. I believe mine is similarly configured to yours. I have PAM menu selections for DOS Commands, MemoMaker, Time Managemt, HP Reflection, VT Reflection, Basic, and 123 Rel. 2.01. If I look at B: with "dir b:" I see: Volume in drive B has no label Directory of B:\ BIN WSS 3-05-92 10:09a MEMO-TM 1-23-86 12:02p HP82863K 11-01-85 10:03a BASIC32K 3-18-85 12:00p RFN 1-29-92 3:06p 45539K 5-05-87 3:07p HELP 5-06-87 11:07a 8 File(s) 2097152 bytes free BIN is from the Portable Plus ROM. MEMO-TM is MemoMaker and Time Management. HP82863K is Reflection. BASIC32K is BASIC. 45539K is 1-2-3 and HELP is 1-2-3's help file. WSS and RFN are, I believe, HP-internal applications. Some of the programs in RFN claim to be "Remote FIREMAN", and I remember FIREMAN being a thing that the HP CEs used to dial into in the 1980s to log completion of a service call. Directories that want to present stuff in PAM have a PAM.MNU file that instruct PAM. > Misc. questions - The built in battery is obviously dead and won't > hold a charge, as the unit won't run at all without the AC > adapter. Every time I boot up though, it asks to reformat the A drive > due to memory loss. More importantly, it has lost the date/time and > system config settings (memory/edisk split for example). I'm curious > if the date/time and config settings are kept by a different battery I > may need to replace, or if all of the above is maintained by the > single battery. I will have to hunt up a new battery. No, there is only the one battery. What do you mean by "boot up"? If you're unplugging it and the battery is dead, yeah, it's probably losing RAM. I'm thinking that if you leave it plugged in you should be able to turn it off and back on. There are several ways to reset the Portable Plus. Shift+CTRL+Break is supposed to reboot from A: (i.e. read CONFIG.SYS from the RAM disk). Shift+CTRL+Extend char+Break is supposed to reboot from B: (i.e. ignore the CONFIG.SYS on the RAM disk). If these don't work, holding down the contrast key (the half-light half-dark circle to the right of the right shift key) will reset and reboot from A:. If none of these work, you can pull the battery cover off and push a little button there, but that's The Reset Button and will wipe your RAM disk too. None of these are the same as turning it off (by pressing f8 in PAM) and turning it back on (by pressing a key on the keyboard). These are really more like putting it to sleep and waking it up. > This 110+ is a really nice box! I'm quite fascinated by the > built-into-rom HP terminal emulator (dumb terminal emulation won't do) > as well as VT terminal emulator and serial port, all in a small > package! Sweet! And with a good battery and a full charge, it will keep up with your typing all day. -Frank McConnell From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 28 16:04:30 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:04:30 -0400 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 Message-ID: <0J6B002WPMJE6JO0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:44:44 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/28/06, Tony Wills wrote: >> >> Re Sipke's xgistor.ath.cx website and his National Semiconductor SC/MP >> (Scamp) CPU emulator, thanks for the replies I've had so far. I've >> collected up many of the files formerly from his site and created an "echo" >> of his site... >> The SC/MP page is now complete (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/scmp.htm), but >> I've seen no sign of his SC/MP emulator and would dearly love to see a >> copy. The emulator was in a file called Scmp09.zip 1.3MB > >Thanks for doing this. I did have a look and did not happen to snag a copy >of the emulator in years past, but I probably should have, given that I have >multiple INS8073 systems. The 8073 is extended over the Sc/mpII. The flavor I have is the the isp500 (pmos) and The 8073 which has Nibble BASIC. >Since folks are digging around for SC/MP stuff, does anyone have a >disassembler? I'm trying to dig into some INS8073 firmware and would >rather not a) do it by hand with an instruction set listing, or b) write a >disassembler from scratch. I'd prefer a UNIX-compatible disassembler, >but could use a DOS one if that's all there is out there. Never seen one. The only assembler I'd ran under ISIS. I'd love to get an assembler and a few tools for the 8073 to play with it more outside of basic. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 28 18:24:10 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:24:10 -0400 Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) Message-ID: <0J6B00K2ET04KY91@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:39:28 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >[...] > > >> The Diskette Experiments, Phase III >> ---------------------------------- >> >> The Test Disks >> -------------- > >[...] > >> Drunk Disk >> ---------- > >[...] > > >> Conclusion: The disk is unreadable due to a >> physical (non-bit) failure of the disk jacket >> and internal disk mylar heavily sticking to the >> jacket itself. > >My first reaction would the to open up one side of the jacket, slide out >the disk (and keep it the right way up!), clean the surface of said disk >and then either 'mount a naked floppy' or use a spare jacket. > >It would be interesting to know if the data could be recovered if you did >that (in all 3 cases). I've had media both soaked and dried after soaking with various sticky beverages. I've found they cleaned up fine and read with out dificulty. I've mounted them with out the jacket and using an old one with cleaned and dried media. Generally floppies do not like any abrasive damage, holes, some solvents and of course magnetic fields. Other than that it's amazing what will survive. Allison From safehaus at webhart.net Fri Sep 29 02:46:38 2006 From: safehaus at webhart.net (Greg Purvis) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 03:46:38 -0400 Subject: AMBRA 486 - How To Access BIOS In-Reply-To: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <451CCF5E.7020807@webhart.net> Hi. I have an Ambra Sprinta, circa 1991-1992, running MS-DOS 6. I don't know how to access the BIOS. I've tried several key combinations, even held down as many keys as possible during boot-up, but nothing's worked. When the machine is turned on, there's first a screen with "AMBRA" at the top and three check-marks appearing down a list during a short diagnostic, then that screen goes away and DOS text is visible during the rest of the boot-up. Pressing any keys at all, during this whole process, only gets the machine beeping. Thanks in advance for help finding the correct key combinations. Greg P. From safehaus at webhart.net Fri Sep 29 02:54:03 2006 From: safehaus at webhart.net (Greg Purvis) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 03:54:03 -0400 Subject: AMBRA 486 - Installing a CD-ROM In-Reply-To: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <451CD11B.4030300@webhart.net> Hi Has anyone successfully installed a CD-ROM in an Ambra computer circa 1991-1992? At first I was going to try to swap one of the floppy drives for the CD-ROM but I've learned that the ROM drive needs different cables, probably some sort of special adaptor. The computer has MS-DOS 6.0 loaded and I've been advised to learn LINUX instead, because it would make any jobs I'm doing a lot easier. In the meantime, I'm hoping I can collect a few more clues about doing this with the current OS. Thanks in advance for any ideas about how to do the installation. Greg P. From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Sep 29 03:31:51 2006 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 09:31:51 +0100 Subject: AMBRA 486 - How To Access BIOS In-Reply-To: <451CCF5E.7020807@webhart.net> References: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <451CCF5E.7020807@webhart.net> Message-ID: after the usual delete or function keys i try shift-ctrl-alt-delete . this works with some bios's alternately take some ram out. that usually forces the bios into setup as the detected amount of ram has changed. On 29 Sep 2006, at 08:46, Greg Purvis wrote: > Hi. > > I have an Ambra Sprinta, circa 1991-1992, running MS-DOS 6. > I don't know how to access the BIOS. I've tried several key > combinations, even held down as many keys as possible during boot-up, > but nothing's worked. > > When the machine is turned on, there's first a screen with "AMBRA" at > the top and three check-marks appearing down a list during a short > diagnostic, then that screen goes away and DOS text is visible during > the rest of the boot-up. Pressing any keys at all, during this whole > process, only gets the machine beeping. > > Thanks in advance for help finding the correct key combinations. > > Greg P. > From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Fri Sep 29 04:08:45 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:08:45 +1200 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> References: <6.1.2.0.1.20060904220145.04ae7190@pop3.paradise.net.nz> <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20060929204822.04305210@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Thanks to James DiGriz and Graeme we have an almost complete reconstruction of the TI59 & SC/MP pages (emulator not here yet). The TI59 diagrams are well done and worth waiting for :-) I also found that Dave Dunfield was been quietly hiding what I've been looking for all along. The file www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/calc/ti59dwg.zip contains the larger versions of some of the diagrams from Sipke's files section. Dave's versions have been renamed and rezipped. I'm not sure but I think Dave's ti59dwg.zip file corresponds to Sipke's TI59-Diag+psu-in-eps.zip although the file size is slightly different (and I don't know what "-in-eps." means?). Anyway the contents seem to correspond to Sipke's other individually zipped files. It appears that the TI59 emulator was Gemtree softwares freeware TI59 emulator (there is also an unpackaged version of this on Dave's site). The only TI59 file that is not accounted for is ti59bkrg.jpg which was just a background image. Sipke's website also has dozens of datasheets (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/files/Electronics/) and other CPU and computer emulator/simulators (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/files/Emulator/). These sections are still being re-populated. I'm not entirely sure what files some of these sections contained, so have taken the liberty of adding what seems appropriate - for that matter the site is not a shine, but a useful resource, so I see no problem with keeping it up to date. I'm marking missing bits with red 'X's. Tony. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Sep 29 04:31:08 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:31:08 +0200 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20060929204822.04305210@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08487FD4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Wills > Sent: vrijdag 29 september 2006 11:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 > > > Thanks to James DiGriz and Graeme we have an almost complete > reconstruction of the TI59 & SC/MP pages (emulator not here > yet). The TI59 diagrams are well done and worth waiting for :-) > > I also found that Dave Dunfield was been quietly hiding what > I've been looking for all along. The file > www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/calc/ti59dwg.zip contains the > larger versions of some of the diagrams from Sipke's files > section. Dave's versions have been renamed and rezipped. > I'm not sure but I think Dave's ti59dwg.zip file corresponds > to Sipke's TI59-Diag+psu-in-eps.zip although the file size is > slightly different (and I don't know what "-in-eps." means?). > Anyway the contents seem to correspond to Sipke's other > individually zipped files. Just a guess, as a fellow from Holland ... Could it be that "in-eps" simply means that the images are "in Encapsulated PostScript" ? - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Sep 29 04:56:42 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 05:56:42 -0400 Subject: External MFM/ESDI? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060929095642.8AB09BA4163@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Wolfe, Julian " wrote: > Well, I have a bunch of open expansion space in my RK07 cabinet, and I > was thinking of somehow mounting the ESDI disks inside it. What sort of > products exist for mounting these disks externally, probably in a > seperate cabinet from the controller? Especially as you're looking for something vaguely DEC-ish, in the late 80's/early 90's TRIMM made a rack-mount box that looked a lot like a BA23 but held four full-height 5.25" hard drives. It came with your choice of transition panels for SCSI or MFM/ESDI. And it even used DEC drive skid plates :-). ESDI cabling is differential for all high-speed signals, so you can get a fair amount of length on it especially if you use Twist-N-Flat. While there were some PC-clone-oriented ESDI drives that were basically just warmed-over MFM drives, there were also large number of truly heavy-duty ESDI drives made for storage arrays in the late 80's through the early 90's. The Hitachi ones are particularly heavy-duty. When these hit the surplus market in the mid-90's I was in heaven! Tim. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Sep 29 02:48:28 2006 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 09:48:28 +0200 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> References: <6.1.2.0.1.20060904220145.04ae7190@pop3.paradise.net.nz> <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <451CCFCC.5000605@iais.fraunhofer.de> Tony Wills schrieb: > > Re Sipke's xgistor.ath.cx website and his National Semiconductor SC/MP > (Scamp) CPU emulator, thanks for the replies I've had so far. I've > collected up many of the files formerly from his site and created an > "echo" of his site (not a "mirror" as it is rather incomplete and the > original doesn't exist any more), I've located it at > "xgistor-echo.ath.cx". I've presumed he wouldn't have objected as I > couldn't find any mention of usage restrictions in any of the pages from > his site. > > The SC/MP page is now complete (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/scmp.htm), > but I've seen no sign of his SC/MP emulator and would dearly love to see > a copy. The emulator was in a file called Scmp09.zip 1.3MB (the only > other info I've got is that one of the minor files in it was called > "Broil.asm"). See http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2006-September/066683.html for my reply to your first post. Unfortunately, you haven't replied yet, so I didn't see any necessity to act myself. I have the scmp09.zip, and also the nible emulator files, probably also several of the TI stuff. > > There was also a SC/MP NIBL emulator by Henri Mason, the relevant files > were: niblinfo.tif, niblroms.zip, scmphenri.zip. > > The other major loss is the diagrams on his TI59 calculator page > (http://xgistor-echo.ath.cx/ti59.htm), again this appears to be unique > material not available anywhere else. The files there were called > TI59-Diag+psu-in-eps.zip, TI59-PSU.zip, TI59annotation-8.zip, > Ti59Diagram0401.zip, ti59-Emu-v11.exe, ti59blokdiagram.jpg, > ti59corechips.jpg, ti59diagram.jpg, ti59scandiagram.jpg, > ti59clocktiming.jpg, ti59psu.jpg, ti59cmplx.jpg > > I would really appreciate any help in recovering copies of these files > (if you can help but are reading this posting from the archives years > later, and the echo website still doesn't contain the mentioned files, > please contact me :-) > > Tony. -- Holger Veit From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Fri Sep 29 07:46:57 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 00:46:57 +1200 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 In-Reply-To: <451CCFCC.5000605@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <6.1.2.0.1.20060904220145.04ae7190@pop3.paradise.net.nz> <6.1.2.0.1.20060928190416.03405c10@pop3.paradise.net.nz> <451CCFCC.5000605@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20060930001533.0718a540@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Hi Holger, Sorry I missed your reply, I looked for replies on the mailing list every day for a week, I did get a few by direct email. Thank you for your offer, it sounds like you have just what I was looking for. Those two pages are now almost complete, including the emulators. They are missing a few odd files like the background images (4xdie2.jpg, ti59bkrg.jpg) and I've recreated TI59-PSU.zip, TI59annotation-8.zip, Ti59Diagram0401.zip but they are different sizes from the originals so may not be quite the right versions. And I don't have TI59-Diag+psu-in-eps.zip unless it is just a zip of the above three files. Any help locating those would be appreciated :-) Tony. At 19:48 29/09/2006, Holger wrote: >... >See http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2006-September/066683.html >for my reply to your first post. Unfortunately, you haven't replied yet, >so I didn't see any necessity to act myself. I have the scmp09.zip, and >also the nible emulator files, probably also several of the TI stuff. ... From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Fri Sep 29 08:04:29 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:04:29 +1200 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 References: <6.1.2.0.1.20060929204822.04305210@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20060930005911.07193870@pop3.paradise.net.nz> At 21:31 29/09/2006, Henk wrote: >... >Tony wrote: > > Dave's versions have been renamed and rezipped. > > I'm not sure but I think Dave's ti59dwg.zip file corresponds > > to Sipke's TI59-Diag+psu-in-eps.zip although the file size is > > slightly different (and I don't know what "-in-eps." means?). > > Anyway the contents seem to correspond to Sipke's other > > individually zipped files. > >Just a guess, as a fellow from Holland ... >Could it be that "in-eps" simply means that the images are >"in Encapsulated PostScript" ? That's the sort of thing I originally thought until I saw Dave's zip file which is about the right size and contains the files that might be expected. Unless someone finds that file, I'll never know :-) Tony. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Sep 29 09:27:31 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:27:31 -0400 Subject: Identifying CCTALK in my email queue In-Reply-To: <001d01c6e34f$950a9ca0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <451C4E15.1070907@webhart.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060929093001.05b3da48@mail.30below.com> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Greg Purvis [mailto:safehaus at webhart.net] >>Subject: Identifying CCTALK in my email queue >> >>Hi. >> >>I just joined. >> >>I subscribe to PC BUILD as well. Each message that arrives is prefixed >>[PC BUILD]. Prefixes are a good idea gone bad. On my Tandy Color Computer list, which has a [CoCo] prefix, it's good until someone replies a couple of times, and the message gets gatewayed thru the Yahoo CoCo list, then it looks like: "Re: Fwd: [CoCo] Re[2]: Re:[Color Computer]" and by that time, you can't see the original subject anymore. It can also diddle up those mailreaders that sort by threads, thereby making it more inconvenient to accurately follow such threads. >> Maybe CCTalk could do the same thing. It would sure help, as I clear >> the queue of daily spam. What mail client do you use? Most (all?) have some form of built-in filtering that you could use to automagically filter all of your stuff for you. I get about 600 messages *a day* and have to manually filter very few of them; admittedly, I've been running the same version of Eudora (5.x) for about 6+ years now, and my filter list is now longer than my arm. >And rumor has it that Evan Koblentz may have mentioned these words: >That's been discussed a trillion times before. So has top-posting. ;-) ;-) > Just filter your mail by the header term "classiccmp" into a different > folder. Better yet: Filter on this header: X-BeenThere: cctalk at classiccmp.org Guaranteed to be unique for shiznit coming from this list. Most (all?) mailing lists have some form of 'filtering' X-header like this. If you (the OP) have more questions on filtering, email me privately and I'd be more than happy to help. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 29 10:51:19 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:51:19 +0000 Subject: Identifying CCTALK in my email queue In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060929093001.05b3da48@mail.30below.com> References: <451C4E15.1070907@webhart.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20060929093001.05b3da48@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <451D40F7.5080504@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Merchberger wrote: >>> I subscribe to PC BUILD as well. Each message that arrives is >>> prefixed [PC BUILD]. > > Prefixes are a good idea gone bad. I finally found a use for them - they're handy when doing a scan of my junk mail folder in order to detect any false-positives before consigning the junk to the trash. Beyond that though, prefixes are both redundant and annoying as all hell :-) > Better yet: Filter on this header: > > X-BeenThere: cctalk at classiccmp.org Does that work? There are two or three listmembers who insist on posting to neither cctalk or cctech, which means that filtering on one or the other doesn't *always* work. Maybe X-BeenThere is guaranteed to be filled in correctly by the list server software, though. > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? Pancakes. Oh, and to the OP: welcome to the list :) cheers J. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 29 10:54:51 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:54:51 +0000 Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) In-Reply-To: <0J6B00K2ET04KY91@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J6B00K2ET04KY91@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <451D41CB.40306@yahoo.co.uk> Allison wrote: > Generally floppies do not like any abrasive damage, holes, some solvents > and of course magnetic fields. Other than that it's amazing what > will survive. ... unless it's a 3.5" floppy made in the last 6 or so years, then you just need to *look* at them funny and they fail :) Actually, typically I find the failure rate to be about 2/3 - I don't think I can think of a single other product that reaches the consumer with such a high rating. cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 29 10:48:25 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Identifying CCTALK in my email queue In-Reply-To: <451D40F7.5080504@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Sep 29, 6 03:51:19 pm" Message-ID: <200609291548.k8TFmPYJ013060@floodgap.com> > > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, > > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? > > Pancakes. Well, you've just soured my appetite. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Smile if you like this tag line. ------------------------------------------- From hachti at hachti.de Fri Sep 29 11:29:14 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:29:14 +0200 Subject: Data General Nova 2 users, where are you? Message-ID: <451D49DA.4090004@hachti.de> Hi folks, I recently got a Data General Nova 2 CPU. It is a very late built OEM machine (Boards say ?1973 Data General but IC timestamps tell a different story from the time around 1977/1978). The machine came with 80kw (!!!!!) of core memory which is two an a half time of 32kw wich is the Nova's address space. The memory is banked by very simple MMU which bank-switches the lower 16k. If I power the unit up I can simply use 32kw of core. That seems to work. Have not yet worked out how the mmu is switched. Will worry about that later... After replacing the front panel lights I can manually read and write memory locations. And I *think* that the CPU works. At least basically. The machine is full of made in Germany boards made by some strange unknown OEM company. There is a Diablo disk drive with a diablo controller. The only function I can see at the moment is a red led on the controller which says "ready" in sync with the ready light on the disk drive. Drive looks good. If I try to boot the system via the built-in dma loading routine it simply hangs in an endless loop and nothing happens. At the moment I would be glad to hook up some kind of "standard tty" to the machine. Does the Nova 2 have a standard tty port built directly into the one-PCB cpu? That would be wonderful! If anybody can help me with tips, tricks, software, hardware, experience or any other interesting stuff and information - please let me know! I don't know what to do with the machine at the moment. I think I also could need some "standard peripherals" for the machine. Thanks a lot! Best wishes from Bavaria (!), Philipp :-) From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Fri Sep 29 11:46:25 2006 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:46:25 -0600 Subject: Data General Nova 2 users, where are you? References: <451D49DA.4090004@hachti.de> Message-ID: <035501c6e3e6$ce993c50$ee84b044@newhare> That sounds like a nice configuration. DG did use bank switching for some of its machines (versus its official memory map design), but none officially existed for the Nova 2 from DG. DG bank switch units were used on the CS/10 and CS/20 microNova systems but the upper 16 K words were mapped since a couple of lower page zero locations had dedicated functions (i.e. interrupt return address, interrupt handler addresss). Bank switching the lower 16 K could lead to "problematic situations" when an interrupt occurred. The Nova 2 CPU board does not contain an integrated serial port controller. A 4010 board or 4075 board were the usual serial port adaptors for Novas. Please contact me off-list for additional help for this interesting configuration: bkr at WildHareComputers.com. Good find! Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Hachtmann" To: Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:29 AM Subject: Data General Nova 2 users, where are you? > Hi folks, > > I recently got a Data General Nova 2 CPU. It is a very late built OEM > machine (Boards say ?1973 Data General but IC timestamps tell a different > story from the time around 1977/1978). > The machine came with 80kw (!!!!!) of core memory which is two an a half > time of 32kw wich is the Nova's address space. The memory is banked by > very simple MMU which bank-switches the lower 16k. If I power the unit up > I can simply use 32kw of core. That seems to work. Have not yet worked out > how the mmu is switched. Will worry about that later... > > After replacing the front panel lights I can manually read and write > memory locations. And I *think* that the CPU works. At least basically. > > The machine is full of made in Germany boards made by some strange unknown > OEM company. > > There is a Diablo disk drive with a diablo controller. The only function I > can see at the moment is a red led on the controller which says "ready" in > sync with the ready light on the disk drive. Drive looks good. If I try to > boot the system via the built-in dma loading routine it simply hangs in an > endless loop and nothing happens. > > At the moment I would be glad to hook up some kind of "standard tty" to > the machine. > Does the Nova 2 have a standard tty port built directly into the one-PCB > cpu? That would be wonderful! > > If anybody can help me with tips, tricks, software, hardware, experience > or any other interesting stuff and information - please let me know! > I don't know what to do with the machine at the moment. > > I think I also could need some "standard peripherals" for the machine. > > Thanks a lot! > > Best wishes from Bavaria (!), > > Philipp :-) From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 29 11:08:15 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:08:15 +0100 Subject: AMBRA 486 - How To Access BIOS In-Reply-To: <451CCF5E.7020807@webhart.net> Message-ID: <007401c6e3e1$7c118eb0$3201a8c0@hal> > Hi. > > I have an Ambra Sprinta, circa 1991-1992, running MS-DOS 6. > > I don't know how to access the BIOS. I've tried several key > combinations, even held down as many keys as possible during > boot-up, but nothing's worked. > > When the machine is turned on, there's first a screen with > "AMBRA" at the top and three check-marks appearing down a > list during a short diagnostic, then that screen goes away > and DOS text is visible during the rest of the boot-up. > Pressing any keys at all, during this whole process, only > gets the machine beeping. Try F2, that worked for an "Blue Lightning" Ambra I had knocking about a few years back, but you have to press it as soon as you turn it on, that had me going in circles for a bit. Dave ;) From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 29 11:47:14 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:47:14 +0100 Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) In-Reply-To: <451D41CB.40306@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <007501c6e3e6$ebadb190$3201a8c0@hal> > Allison wrote: > > Generally floppies do not like any abrasive damage, holes, some > > solvents and of course magnetic fields. Other than that > it's amazing > > what will survive. > > ... unless it's a 3.5" floppy made in the last 6 or so years, > then you just need to *look* at them funny and they fail :) > > Actually, typically I find the failure rate to be about 2/3 - > I don't think I can think of a single other product that > reaches the consumer with such a high rating. > Holy crap, what brand are you buying ? I've been using Fuji colour(ed) 3.5" HD discs for a few years now and I've never had a single failure. Recently, I put Office 4.3 Pro, Windows 3.11, Dos 6.22, a bunch of utilites and apps (e.g. TCP/IP32, 3c509, Doom) onto 3.5" for a Compaq DeskPro 386/25 1987 vintage, not a single failure. They came recommended by someone who uses discs daily. I've had bad experiences with cheap discs... Dave ;) From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 29 13:46:15 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:46:15 -0400 Subject: Anyone speak fluent Greek? Message-ID: <002401c6e3f7$8b64e3b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'm looking for someone to translate this page into English: http://www.itia.ntua.gr/twiki/bin/view/Main/MuseumItem00042 Thanks! - Evan K. From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 29 13:48:55 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:48:55 -0400 Subject: Err, nevermind ...RE: Anyone speak fluent Greek? In-Reply-To: <002401c6e3f7$8b64e3b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <002501c6e3f7$eaa8dc00$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Sorry. Just found a helpful English page at http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1+&c=1144. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:46 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Anyone speak fluent Greek? I'm looking for someone to translate this page into English: http://www.itia.ntua.gr/twiki/bin/view/Main/MuseumItem00042 Thanks! - Evan K. From RMeenaks at olf.com Fri Sep 29 13:53:52 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:53:52 -0400 Subject: Anyone speak fluent Greek? References: <002401c6e3f7$8b64e3b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B0DEC@cpexchange.olf.com> Did you try babelfish.altavista.com? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Evan Koblentz Sent: Fri 9/29/2006 2:46 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Anyone speak fluent Greek? I'm looking for someone to translate this page into English: http://www.itia.ntua.gr/twiki/bin/view/Main/MuseumItem00042 Thanks! - Evan K. From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 29 14:13:20 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:13:20 -0400 Subject: Anyone speak fluent Greek? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B0DEC@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <002a01c6e3fb$540b4900$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Yes, but there's nothing like a human brain for translating languages. -----Original Message----- From: Ram Meenakshisundaram [mailto:RMeenaks at olf.com] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Anyone speak fluent Greek? Did you try babelfish.altavista.com? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Evan Koblentz Sent: Fri 9/29/2006 2:46 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Anyone speak fluent Greek? I'm looking for someone to translate this page into English: http://www.itia.ntua.gr/twiki/bin/view/Main/MuseumItem00042 Thanks! - Evan K. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 29 14:42:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:42:39 -0700 Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) In-Reply-To: <007501c6e3e6$ebadb190$3201a8c0@hal> References: <007501c6e3e6$ebadb190$3201a8c0@hal> Message-ID: <200609291242390544.250C6B9B@10.0.0.252> On 9/29/2006 at 5:47 PM David Hunt wrote: >Holy crap, what brand are you buying ? I've got a box of unused DSED (2.88MB) Fujis. The first few were fine, but after about 4-5 years, the remainder won't even format without errors. I have to think that there's a problem with the binder used. (FWIW, the drive used is a Teac FD-235J). I picked up a bunch of new Imation DSHD 3.5" diskettes. Again, just fine right out of the box, but after a year and 2-3 reuses, they're worthless. There were some really terrible 5.25" DSDD (360K) disks marketed. One type was sold by Control Data (StorageMaster). If I see one of those in a conversion job, I warn the customer that there's a fair chance that the data may not be readable. Not only do these things tend to stick to the liner, but the coating will flake right off the cookie when you try to read one. The ones with earlier manufacturing dates tend to be much better than the later ones. "Elephant" brand 360Ks can be problematical in the same way, as can the "Precision" brand. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 29 14:20:30 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:20:30 -0400 Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) Message-ID: <0J6D005W4CDPK765@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:54:51 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> Generally floppies do not like any abrasive damage, holes, some solvents >> and of course magnetic fields. Other than that it's amazing what >> will survive. > >.... unless it's a 3.5" floppy made in the last 6 or so years, then you just >need to *look* at them funny and they fail :) Actually I was talkkking about 8 and 5,25 media I was trying to recover data from. >Actually, typically I find the failure rate to be about 2/3 - I don't think I >can think of a single other product that reaches the consumer with such a high >rating. Jules, The last time I'd seens that failure rate I started checking the drives. It seeems the drives had so much dust (at work) they were scraping the media to failure. Cleaned the drives and the problem would go away for a few months. The media was a the cheapest 3.5 available. What would happen is once the heads built up a mixute of media and dust it would routinely destroy disks after one use after that. Outside of that and outright bad drives I found 3.5" to be very reliable and somewhat more immune to some of the things that kill soft jacket disks. In fact when AOL was sending their virus out on 3.5" floppies (pre bloat) I'd use them and still have a few that see regular use. I figure they are as cheap as they come! Allison From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 29 15:37:02 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:37:02 -0400 Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) In-Reply-To: <0J6D005W4CDPK765@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J6D005W4CDPK765@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200609291637.02186.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 29 September 2006 03:20 pm, Allison wrote: > In fact when AOL was sending their virus out on 3.5" floppies (pre bloat) > I'd use them and still have a few that see regular use. I figure they are > as cheap as they come! Yah. I have a major pile of those here, and they don't seem to be any more problematic than any others in the pile of blanks. In fact, the ones that I'm seeing that have failed are those marked "Memorex" that I paid too darn much for back when. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Sep 29 16:19:38 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:19:38 -0500 Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) In-Reply-To: <200609291637.02186.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0J6D005W4CDPK765@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200609291637.02186.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <451D8DEA.10407@oldskool.org> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm seeing that have failed are those marked "Memorex" that I paid too darn > much for back when. Seconded. I think that every single Memorex floppy disk and cassette tape I've ever used has gone bad (sometimes spectacularly). Hey, I'm susceptible to marketing campaigns too... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 29 17:37:51 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 22:37:51 +0000 Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) In-Reply-To: <0J6D005W4CDPK765@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J6D005W4CDPK765@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <451DA03F.8050502@yahoo.co.uk> Allison wrote: >> Subject: Re: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) >> From: Jules Richardson >> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:54:51 +0000 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> .... unless it's a 3.5" floppy made in the last 6 or so years, then you just >> need to *look* at them funny and they fail :) > > Actually I was talkkking about 8 and 5,25 media I was trying to recover > data from. It's pretty rare that I see problems with 5.25" stuff, providing it's cleaned. I'm tempted to say that Parrot disks are the worst, but it's not something I've thought about too much. >> Actually, typically I find the failure rate to be about 2/3 - I don't think I >> can think of a single other product that reaches the consumer with such a high >> rating. > > The last time I'd seens that failure rate I started checking the drives. Oh, I keep the drives clean that I use regularly. Actually, I'd second the point that someone else made - it's not that the disks are DOA, but more a case that they only survive a handful of uses before failing. Makes me wonder if there are in fact quality control checks in place, but that they only take into account number of disks with initial faults - not what happens to them with any kind of repeated use. I've only ever seen this problem on 3.5" media from the last few years. Older HD / DD disks I've rarely had a problem with (i.e. I can grab a used 'old' disk from the pile and happily use and trust it in any of my drives; the same just isn't true of new media). I can't comment on the longevity of the modern stuff, I'm afraid - these days I don't keep data around on floppy for any length of time. About the only disks I *keep* data on are a couple of old Gateway 2000 DOS boot disks (they're handy because they have an expanded copy of fdisk on there, and a whole range of CDROM drivers)- when they die I'll restore from backups as/when needed, but for the moment they're still going strong. Those date from circa 1999 though, so from before the days when 3.5" media became junk. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 29 17:17:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:17:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp110+ info In-Reply-To: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Sep 28, 6 07:50:20 pm Message-ID: > > Still can't find manuals. But here's what I know and maybe people can fill > in the blanks. > > First info - Base model is 45711E, supposedly that designates 110+, 512k Yep. > ram, & modem. The memory drawer has a model 82981A, which googling suggests > is 128k ram addon. There's a metal shield over the chips and I don't have > the right torq bit to remove. Upon boot all the ROM ID shows BBBBBB. IIRC, the RAM drawer has 128K on the mainboard, but you can add 1 or 2 daughterboards, each is another 128K. All that RAM, BTW is in 8K*8 SRAM chips (6264 type things). The original 110 had pin-through-hole (a large board the entire size of the machine was almost all 6264s!), the 110+ used SMD ones. You'll need (at least) TX6, TX8 and TX10 Torx tools and a set of metric nutrdirvers to take this toy apart. > > First question - going into system config lets me set the memory split > between main memory and edisk. All choices add up to 896k. How does that > square with 128k + 512k? Sounds likle you have a couple of dughterboards fitted :-) > > Second info - The PAM menu shows the following application choices - DOS > CMDS, HP reflection, VT reflection, Memo Maker, Time Management, and BASIC. > However, opening up the software drawer shows the following chips in the > following locations 82863K-Reflection1 (0L), 45504K-MemoMaker/TimeMgt (1L), > 82862K-BASIC (4L), 45555K-1/2-ExecutiveCardMgr (5H), > 45555K-2/2-ExecutiveCardMgr (5L), 45548K-1/2-Lotus123 (6H), > 45548K-2/2-Lotus123 (6L). > > Second question - I assume the PAM menu selections for HP reflection and VT > reflection are handled by the single 82863K rom. I am curious why the > Executive Card Manager and Lotus123 don't show up in the PAM menu? The ROMs contains something a bit like an MS-DOS filesystem, you can have several applicaitons in one ROM (this would (normally?) be done by having subdirectories in the ROM). The TechRef gives the format of the data for the ROMs, I may even have software (runs on the 110+) to create them. For an application (in ROM or on disk) to show up in PAM, there needs to be some data file which defines the label to appear in PAM, the executable filename, and so on. The format of that (IIRC it's a text file) is also documented. I would assume some of your ROMs don't contain said file. I assume you've got an MS-DOS prompt by now. Try DIR B: and see what shows up. > > Misc. questions - The built in battery is obviously dead and won't hold a > charge, as the unit won't run at all without the AC adapter. Every time I > boot up though, it asks to reformat the A drive due to memory loss. More > importantly, it has lost the date/time and system config settings > (memory/edisk split for example). I'm curious if the date/time and config > settings are kept by a different battery I may need to replace, or if all of > the above is maintained by the single battery. I will have to hunt up a new > battery. No, there's only one battery, the 6V lead acid one. Now getting that out is 'interesting'. The official HP procedure involves bending some contact straps, they tend to break off. In fact HP tell you to replace them every time, but good luck in finding them. I have a sort-of workaround. It takes longer, but you don't bend anything. It goes like this : Remove the clip on battery cover [1] at the back. Move the jumper link to the 'off' postion. Remove both drawers Remove the (black) plastic cover over the battery terminals (2 screws). Undo the terminal nuts behind it _but don't bend the straps down_. Loosen the nuts holding the straps to the PCB. HP suggest you do this with the machine upside down so that any swarf falls away from the PCB. Now remveo all the screws on the bottom that hold the case together (I forget if some are under labels/feet). Put the machine the right way up, hold the straps away from the battery terminals (if the nuts on the PCB are loose enough, you don't have to bend the straps to do this), and lift up the top case starting at the rear. Free the connector panel from the top case, then reach inside and unplug the display and keyboard cables from the main PCB. Turn the top case over. Remove the 4 Torx screws that go throught the posts for the display hinges. One of the grounding flexiprints is now free IIRC. Put the top case the right way up, lift off the centre section betweem the display hinges (I forget whether the display needs to be open or closed, but it's obviosu when you do it). Then take out the battery and the foam pad around it. [1] If you are really lucky, that cover will be held on by 2 screws and will have a connector on it. That's the connector for the _rare_ video display adapter which displays the LCD contents on a composite monitor. If you have this connector, take out the 2 screws, ease away the cover, unplug the end of the cable from the main PCB and later free the ground tab when you remov the battery terminals, etc. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 29 18:20:16 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:20:16 -0500 Subject: hp110+ info References: Message-ID: <004801c6e41d$d3590950$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... > IIRC, the RAM drawer has 128K on the mainboard, but you can add 1 or 2 > daughterboards, each is another 128K. Ok, I got the right torx tools, and took the cover off the memory drawer. There is a large "base" card in the bottom of it, and two daughtercards that appear to fill the entire case. That sounds like 384k total in the RAM drawer. That must mean 512k is built into the base unit without the memory drawer? Ok.... but I could have sworn I saw somewhere that the 110+ could go to 1mb. Wonder where the additional 128k goes? > For an application (in ROM or on disk) to show up in PAM, there needs to > be some data file which defines the label to appear in PAM, the > executable filename, and so on. The format of that (IIRC it's a text > file) is also documented. I would assume some of your ROMs don't contain > said file. Interesting info, but I'm not interested in the rom format (yet). I'm much more concerned why neither executive card manager and lotus 123 don't show up in pam. They don't show up in the directory of the B drive either - and I am relatively sure from other research that they ARE supposed to show up there when installed. On thing I'm curious about is the jumpers inside the software drawer. Any docs on those? It may be coincidence, but all the jumpers (one for each H/L set) are in the same position for each of the six slots - and the two roms that don't appear are the only two roms that use both H and L sockets. So this makes me wonder if they were plugged in but the jumpers just never set right. Anyone have docs on just how those jumpers are supposed to be set? > I assume you've got an MS-DOS prompt by now. Try DIR B: and see what > shows up. Everything that should, except the two app roms mentioned above. > No, there's only one battery, the 6V lead acid one. Ok, then the first order of business is to seek out a replacement battery if one can be found! > I have a sort-of workaround. It takes longer, but you don't bend > anything. It goes like this : Thanks a ton, I will look in to your procedure tomorrow! Thanks to all for the assistance! Jay West From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 29 18:40:30 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:40:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Addendum to Diskette Experiments, Phase III Message-ID: <200609292340.k8TNeU2P090321@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, Paul posted this a day or so after the other post and it seems the Hot & Cold Affair disk did work again after leaving it overnight (see below). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- Paul Panks wrote: There is an addendum added to yesterday's posting of Phase III of the Diskette Experiments. Here is the addendum: A new conclusion has been reached regarding the second disk experiment. Additionally, the final Phase III conclusion has been modified somewhat to showcase this change: "The Hot and Cold Affair ----------------------- This test called for putting ice cubes on the front side of the disk, while simultaneously holding the back side of the disk over a stovetop range at Medium heat (held approximately 3/4th of a foot from the surface of the stovetop due to overwhelming heat and potential hand burn considerations). The disk was held over the surface for a period of ten (10) minutes, while carefully juggling the ice cubes on the 1st surface simultaneously. The disk was allowed to cool for a period of 20 minutes, then read. The result was a disk that did not read, as the internal mylar floppy could barely be moved by force from side to side by this person. Conclusion: The disk was unreadable due to a physical (non-bit) failure of the disk jacket and internal disk mylar semi-sticking to the jacket itself. However, after waiting overnight and trying the disk again, it read without error. Performing a simple read/write on the disk -- writing (then reading back) a 2 block sequential file -- worked flawlessly. Although heating the disk and placing icecubes atop it is not recommended, the disk nonetheless did recover once it was allowed to cool overnight." The conclusion has also been modified somewhat. Here is the change: "Experiment Phase III Conclusions -------------------------------- Two of the disks were a total loss, as the experiment never progressed beyond the first question asked ("Could a disk still be read by the disk drive?"). The disk in the "Hot/Cold Affair" experiment failed at first, but then worked upon waiting 24 hours for the internal disk mylar to cool overnight. Disks are not impervious to permanent and irreversible physical damage from oatmeal, milk, water, heat ( >= 250 degrees F ), ice cubes, shoes and golf spikes. Heating a disk and placing ice cubes atop it will cause it to temporarily become unreadable, although the disk should return to working order within 24 hours. It is nonetheless strongly recommended by this person that end users strictly avoid such implements (as described above) when at, near or around a floppy disk or drive." The entirety of the Diskette Experiments can be viewed online here: http://www.geocities.com/dunric/diskfun.txt Paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 29 19:22:15 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 19:22:15 -0500 Subject: hp110+ info References: <004801c6e41d$d3590950$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <009001c6e426$7e2b1280$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had STUPIDLY written.... >Wonder where the additional 128k goes? I believe the additional 128 is actually taken by the ROM software in the rom drawer :) Jay From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Sep 29 19:34:00 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 19:34:00 -0500 Subject: Ambra 486 BIOS Message-ID: <8462ea0d829d4e659dfb84bfc65bacd7@valleyimplants.com> AMBRA was made by IBM if my memory isn't faulty. It's very likely that much of the firmware is similar to IBM BIOSes. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with IBM PC systems of the 1991 era. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 29 20:23:34 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) In-Reply-To: <200609291242390544.250C6B9B@10.0.0.252> References: <007501c6e3e6$ebadb190$3201a8c0@hal> <200609291242390544.250C6B9B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060929181643.E87064@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were some really terrible 5.25" DSDD (360K) disks marketed. One type > was sold by Control Data (StorageMaster). If I see one of those in a > . . . > "Elephant" brand 360Ks can be problematical in the same way, as can the > "Precision" brand. Just about every brand produced some bad batches. The Verbatims right before "Datalife" were pretty bad. Was the trademark "Datalife" created just to try to reassure us that they were no longer going to jopardize the life of our data? The worst 360Ks that I encountered was Roytype (Royal Typewriter). Within a few minutes after writing and verifying, they would be blank again. Hmmmm. could also get something like that from the wrong coercivity, ... From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 29 20:59:04 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:59:04 -0500 Subject: WANG micro? found Message-ID: <00c901c6e434$04c046a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Surplus dealer saved an odd looking box for me. It's a WANG, slightly larger than a typical PC with monitor and keyboard. Comes with a case of floppy disks, most of which are original WANG labels. I couldn't make out much from them other than some of it was some productivity type software. The front dimensions were square (Width = Height) and the depth was unusually deep (maybe 2.5 to 3 feet). In the front was a power switch, 5.25 floppy drive, and visibly the front of some small hard drive (looked like the old IBM PC drives). The thing that piqued my interest is that it supposedly had 10 terminals hanging off the back of it before it was brought in. I'm going back tomorrow to pull it out and get more info about it. Jay From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Sep 29 21:44:08 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:44:08 -0500 Subject: Still Looking for Help Message-ID: <016301c6e43a$4f218230$3bd4ef42@66067007> Hello All I'm still looking for help with the second rescue attempt in Georgia and need either 182 donors of $10 each or 1820 at $1 each. I would like to get to these items before winter really gets here, so please if you can spare a $1 (one buck) send it to the Houston Computer Museum, 15827 Thistledew Drive, Houston, TX 77082-1432. Cash or a check will do. Again the first trip was a great success and many thanks to all donors for that rescue. www.housoncomputermuseum.org Thanks in advance to all, John Keys From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Sep 29 22:26:15 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:26:15 -0700 Subject: hp110+ info References: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200609300326.k8U3QF2k055805@lots.reanimators.org> Went to storage to paw through some more 110 and Portable Plus bits and came up with another tidbit from the manual for the 82984A 128K Memory Card (p/n 82984-90004). Turn the Portable Plus off with PAM f8. Press and hold Extend char and Shift, then press and hold f8 for at least five seconds. When you let go it will start up with a diagnostic menu. Note that the Software/Memory Drawer test on Shift-f2 takes five minutes per 128KB RAM, but it will tell you what sockets it thinks have ROMs in. -Frank McConnell From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 29 22:30:24 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:30:24 -0400 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <00c901c6e434$04c046a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00c901c6e434$04c046a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200609292330.24317.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 29 September 2006 09:59 pm, Jay West wrote: > Surplus dealer saved an odd looking box for me. It's a WANG, slightly > larger than a typical PC with monitor and keyboard. Comes with a case of > floppy disks, most of which are original WANG labels. I couldn't make out > much from them other than some of it was some productivity type software. > The front dimensions were square (Width = Height) and the depth was > unusually deep (maybe 2.5 to 3 feet). In the front was a power switch, 5.25 > floppy drive, and visibly the front of some small hard drive (looked like > the old IBM PC drives). > > The thing that piqued my interest is that it supposedly had 10 terminals > hanging off the back of it before it was brought in. I'm going back > tomorrow to pull it out and get more info about it. I worked for a while for a dealer that handled such stuff. If you open up the box and find a big L-shaped CPU board then they're the same critters. I believe I saw a metal tray intended to mount a drive in one of those boxes around here someplace just in the past day or two. I may also, somewhere, have some diagnostics for those machines. Maybe. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 29 23:58:17 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 00:58:17 -0400 Subject: Anyone have the LCD for an Apple //c? Message-ID: <002e01c6e44d$0b375c30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'm looking to borrow the rare LCD for an Apple //c as part of my VCF 9.0 exhibition. If anybody has one, please contact me off-list. - Evan From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 29 17:08:09 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:08:09 +0100 Subject: Anyone speak fluent Greek? In-Reply-To: <002401c6e3f7$8b64e3b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <009001c6e413$c0841130$3201a8c0@hal> > I'm looking for someone to translate this page into English: > http://www.itia.ntua.gr/twiki/bin/view/Main/MuseumItem00042 > No, but... Using BabelFish at AltaVista... He is the computer that used the insurers of Interamerican in the 80's. Beautiful designing and been careful manufacture. The computer can function independent from the printer (which HandHeld has name of model FH-2000). * Type of processor: intel 80C88 se ta 4.77 MHz * Memory (RAM): 128 kB * Analysis of screen: 480x64 or 8 lines of 80 characters Dave ;) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 29 20:38:08 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:38:08 -0400 Subject: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) Message-ID: <0J6D00BL7TV0A512@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: FW: Third round of Diskette Experiments completed (results) > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:23:34 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There were some really terrible 5.25" DSDD (360K) disks marketed. One type >> was sold by Control Data (StorageMaster). If I see one of those in a >> . . . >> "Elephant" brand 360Ks can be problematical in the same way, as can the >> "Precision" brand. > >Just about every brand produced some bad batches. >The Verbatims right before "Datalife" were pretty bad. Was the trademark >"Datalife" created just to try to reassure us that they were no longer >going to jopardize the life of our data? > >The worst 360Ks that I encountered was Roytype (Royal Typewriter). >Within a few minutes after writing and verifying, they would be blank >again. Hmmmm. could also get something like that from the wrong >coercivity, ... > It all started back when with the 3M Blackwatch audotape.. Great stuff until it was around afew years then it shed binder like mad. It takes a bit of majik to get the oxide coating to stick to the mylar base. the other factor was that of all the brands I think the base material only came from three or five makers like 3M, BASF, Nashua, Dupont maybe others. The key is if a maker lost the receipe that could show up as their brand and five others or maybe only the others! Allison From jimgeneva at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 01:14:49 2006 From: jimgeneva at earthlink.net (James C. Geneva) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 00:14:49 -0600 Subject: HP50960A HP server Message-ID: <000501c6e457$bcff6660$0f00a8c0@dorisland.net> Hello: I saw a post you made on the HP SRM server did you ever do anything with it? Jim From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 30 07:28:19 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:28:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Looking for a BA-356 jumper Message-ID: <25402.88.211.153.27.1159619299.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I got a BA-356 with 6 drives ad it came with a dual channel personality module. I want to use it as a single channel tray, and according to the user guide it needs a jumper connector. Anybody have one left over by any chance?? Thanks, Ed From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 30 12:09:14 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 13:09:14 -0400 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <00c901c6e434$04c046a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00c901c6e434$04c046a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sep 29, 2006, at 9:59 PM, Jay West wrote: > Surplus dealer saved an odd looking box for me. It's a WANG, slightly > larger than a typical PC with monitor and keyboard. Comes with a case > of floppy disks, most of which are original WANG labels. I couldn't > make out much from them other than some of it was some productivity > type software. The front dimensions were square (Width = Height) and > the depth was unusually deep (maybe 2.5 to 3 feet). In the front was a > power switch, 5.25 floppy drive, and visibly the front of some small > hard drive (looked like the old IBM PC drives). > > The thing that piqued my interest is that it supposedly had 10 > terminals hanging off the back of it before it was brought in. I'm > going back tomorrow to pull it out and get more info about it. Many years ago (think "the 80386 had just hit the streets") I had a job as a service tech working on Wang machines that meet that description. If you can take a pic or two I'd love to see it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From jbdigriz990 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 30 12:21:58 2006 From: jbdigriz990 at yahoo.com (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 10:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datasheets wanted Message-ID: <20060930172158.47097.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Looking for datasheets, user guides, dev tools, etc. for the SMJ68689 and TMS9996 processors. All the 68689's were supposedly bought up by Uncle Sam some years ago when they went out of production, as a critical spare for missiles or whatever, but some do turn up on the remarket from time to time, and there seems to be a (very relative) glut of them right now. The 9996 seems to have been a part TI used strictly internally and never marketed, to my knowledge. It would appear to be basically a 9995 with an non-multiplexed data bus, ie. full 16 bit data path, but I haven't been able to confirm this yet. It's not where I can get at it easily at the moment, but I have an XDS emulator system (non-working at the moment) for the TMS320C30 DSP that uses a 9996 for the host processor. IIRC, it's a 64-pin DIP like the 9900. Any help greatly appreciated. jbdigriz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 30 13:30:47 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 13:30:47 -0500 Subject: WANG micro? found References: <00c901c6e434$04c046a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001301c6e4be$947d8110$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, I went there and took a picture, you can see it at http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit/09300001.JPG The "aspect ratio" in the picture is misleading. While the front of the cpu isn't perfectly square, it is more square than the picture would lead you to believe. In the 3rd party floppy boxes are loads of WANG label software, as well as customer disks. In the brown box is about a 1.5 foot long stretch of silver padded WANG binders/manuals, many with original software disks. I noticed some stuff mentioning 2780/3780 communications software which grabbed my attention. The monitor hooks up to the cpu with an odd "dual din cable". Two din connectors on each end, one has about 9 pins the other has about 5 pins. The monitor obviously gets both power and data on this dual cable. The CPU appears to be something called a "Wang Professional Computer" from what I can glean from the docs. The model tag on the back is extremely faded black print on silver so it's just a shadow. It seems to say the model is something vaguely like PM-XC1. There is an IBM mono "module" which has a part number something like PM101 and a "winchester controller module" which has a part number like PM029. >From just a 30 second skim of some of the manuals it appears to be running a very customized version of DOS. The proprietary changes to the OS appear to be more than just cosmetic. The price was reasonable so I picked it up. The seller said it came from a WANG dealer - since there's a lot of what appear to be diagnostics & test diskettes, I would imagine that's the case. I will play with it for a bit, but may well be interested in trading it off. I did note that the seller had more of the proprietary CRT's and dual din cables if those are of interest. Jay West From legalize at xmission.com Sat Sep 30 13:34:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:34:21 -0600 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 30 Sep 2006 13:30:47 -0500. <001301c6e4be$947d8110$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <001301c6e4be$947d8110$6800a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > [...] I did note that the seller had > more of the proprietary CRT's and dual din cables if those are of interest. Weird WANG stuff seems to be fairly rare; I'd pick up anything the guy is willing to give you. You have a unit from the PC clone era; stuff from the pre-PC era is even rarer IMO. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 30 14:40:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:40:31 -0500 Subject: WANG micro? found References: Message-ID: <000c01c6e4c8$4a5ba530$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I took more pictures of the unit after removing the chassis. They can be found at: http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/wang The cpu main board is definitely the large L-shaped one that Roy Tellason mentioned. Just eyeballing it, but what kind of backplane connectors are those? They look larger than ISA connectors and appear to be 86 pin. It seems to be quite clean inside and out. Not that I've had much time for classic computers lately, but this one may be interesting for a while :) Jay From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Sep 30 16:21:40 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:21:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for a BA-356 jumper In-Reply-To: <25402.88.211.153.27.1159619299.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <25402.88.211.153.27.1159619299.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1324.192.168.0.3.1159651300.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, September 30, 2006 1:28 pm, Ed Groenenberg said: > > I got a BA-356 with 6 drives ad it came with a dual channel > personality module. > > I want to use it as a single channel tray, and according to > the user guide it needs a jumper connector. Hi Ed, The BA356 has its jumper and terminator already installed behind the blowers, though that it has a dual channel personality module doesn't necessarily mean the shelf is a split-bus one. If you've powered it up and it's spun up drives 0, 2, 4 then 1,3,5 etc you just need to swap the terminator and jumper boards. Remove the blowers on the back and the jumper cover at the bottom (metal box, it's a pig to remove :o)) then swap the boards over. If I was thinking straight I could tell you how to check which board is connected where by removing the drives and looking at the backplane, maybe someone else will do that for me :) cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Sat Sep 30 16:24:11 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:24:11 +0200 Subject: KIM-1 7-segment font? In-Reply-To: References: <451C61FB.2050706@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <451EE07B.6080206@ais.fraunhofer.de> Ethan Dicks schrieb: > On 9/29/06, Don wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > I'm prototyping an LED display thingie and was trying to find a >> > representation of how folks used to do letters on a 7-segment display. >> > The two historical examples I came up with were the KIM-1... >> >> How were the displays driven? I.e., were the segments individually >> driven (each segment under software control) or were they driven >> by a "7 segment LED driver"? > > Individually driven from a 6520 port. > >> In the former case, you'd need a definitive source for the >> patterns used. (given that, I can build you a TTF or PS font) > > I don't need a TTF or PS font (I'm doing a bit-mapped emulation and I > already have the code done to render all possible patterns on some > simulated 7-segment displays), what I need is the definitive source > for the patterns. > > -ethan > Look into the first book of Kim-1 (available from the net): excerpt: THE KIM-1 ALPHABET. Some letters, like M and W, just won't go onto a 7-segment display. Some, like B, are only possible in capitals; others, like T, can only be done in lower case. So here's an alphabet of possibles: A - $F7 B - $FF b - $FC C - $B9 c - $DB D - $BF d - $DE F - $F9 F - $F1 f - $F1 G - $BD g - $EF H - $F6 h - $F4 1 - $86 I - $86 i - $84 2 - $DB J - $9E j - $9E 3 - $CF L - $B8 l - $86 4 - $E6 n - $D4 5 - $ED O - $BF o - $DC 6 - $FD P - $F3 p - $F3 7 - $87 r - $D0 B - $FF S - $ED 9 - $EF t - $F8 0 - $BF U - $BE u - $9C minus - $C0 Y - $EE y - $EE Guess it is obvious how to read this: bit 7 = dot bit 6 = segment g bit 5 = segment f ... bit 0 = segment a Regards Holger From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Sep 30 16:49:03 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:49:03 -0700 Subject: KIM-1 7-segment font? In-Reply-To: <451EE07B.6080206@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <451C61FB.2050706@dakotacom.net> <451EE07B.6080206@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <451EE64F.6070002@dakotacom.net> Holger Veit wrote: > Ethan Dicks schrieb: >> On 9/29/06, Don wrote: >>> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> > I'm prototyping an LED display thingie and was trying to find a >>> > representation of how folks used to do letters on a 7-segment display. >>> > The two historical examples I came up with were the KIM-1... >>> >>> How were the displays driven? I.e., were the segments individually >>> driven (each segment under software control) or were they driven >>> by a "7 segment LED driver"? >> >> Individually driven from a 6520 port. >> >>> In the former case, you'd need a definitive source for the >>> patterns used. (given that, I can build you a TTF or PS font) >> >> I don't need a TTF or PS font (I'm doing a bit-mapped emulation and I >> already have the code done to render all possible patterns on some >> simulated 7-segment displays), what I need is the definitive source >> for the patterns. >> >> -ethan >> > Look into the first book of Kim-1 (available from the net): > excerpt: > > THE KIM-1 ALPHABET. > > Some letters, like M and W, just won't go onto a 7-segment > display. Some, like B, are only possible in capitals; others, B can be done as a lowercase variant -- as a tail-less 6. Lowercase D can be done with the same pattern mirrored across the vertical axis. These are more readily recognized. Where you have some *choice* (A vs a, C vs. c, E vs. e, etc.), you have to look at the whole character set to come to a "best compromise" (Of course, if the device in question has already made that choice *for* you....) > like T, can only be done in lower case. So here's an > alphabet of possibles: > > A - $F7 > B - $FF b - $FC > C - $B9 c - $DB > D - $BF d - $DE > F - $F9 > F - $F1 f - $F1 > G - $BD g - $EF > H - $F6 h - $F4 1 - $86 > I - $86 i - $84 2 - $DB > J - $9E j - $9E 3 - $CF > L - $B8 l - $86 4 - $E6 > n - $D4 5 - $ED > O - $BF o - $DC 6 - $FD > P - $F3 p - $F3 7 - $87 > r - $D0 B - $FF > S - $ED 9 - $EF > t - $F8 0 - $BF > U - $BE u - $9C minus - $C0 > Y - $EE y - $EE > > Guess it is obvious how to read this: > bit 7 = dot > bit 6 = segment g > bit 5 = segment f > ... > bit 0 = segment a From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 30 17:39:17 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 17:39:17 -0500 Subject: hp110+ info References: <00ae01c6e361$41491800$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200609300326.k8U3QF2k055805@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <002101c6e4e1$4615dbd0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Frank wrote.... > Turn the Portable Plus off with PAM f8. Press and hold Extend char > and Shift, then press and hold f8 for at least five seconds. When you > let go it will start up with a diagnostic menu. That's awesome info Frank, thanks! The diagnostic shows two bad roms, and they happen to be the only two high order roms of the only two rom sets in the machine (lotus & executive card manager). Are the rom blanks a common chip? Anyone have images I can download and burn (or chips I can borrow & copy)? I just love the Reflection1 terminal emulation. Someday I may have to dig into the rom format. I was thinking (depending on the size of the roms) that perhaps I could write a snippet of code that emulates the terminal side of the HP 264x bootloader rom, so my 21MX's can boot from the 110 :D Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 17:49:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:49:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp110+ info In-Reply-To: <004801c6e41d$d3590950$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Sep 29, 6 06:20:16 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote.... > > IIRC, the RAM drawer has 128K on the mainboard, but you can add 1 or 2 > > daughterboards, each is another 128K. > Ok, I got the right torx tools, and took the cover off the memory drawer. > There is a large "base" card in the bottom of it, and two daughtercards that > appear to fill the entire case. That sounds like 384k total in the RAM That sounds right. > drawer. That must mean 512k is built into the base unit without the memory Again, that sounds right. Yours is a -E model, isn't it? That has 512K buit-in (I _think_ it's 256K on the main memory PCB, and 2 more daughterboards (which are the same as those in the RAM drawer). Incidnetally, the service mnaual regards SMD stuff as not being field-repairable (No idea what the problem is!), and doesn't include schematics of the RAM drwaer or daughterboards. They _are_ included in the technical manaul. > drawer? Ok.... but I could have sworn I saw somewhere that the 110+ could go > to 1mb. Wonder where the additional 128k goes? You don't _have_ to have a RAM drawer and a software (ROM) drawer. I think you cna have 2 RAM drawers. There as also a 1M RAM drawer made, I believe it was bank-switched, and I have no details or schematics for it. I've never seen one. [...] > Interesting info, but I'm not interested in the rom format (yet). I'm much > more concerned why neither executive card manager and lotus 123 don't show > up in pam. They don't show up in the directory of the B drive either - and I > am relatively sure from other research that they ARE supposed to show up > there when installed. They certainly should show up in the B: drive directory. Maybe defective ROMs? Start by removing and replacing them.. > > On thing I'm curious about is the jumpers inside the software drawer. Any > docs on those? It may be coincidence, but all the jumpers (one for each H/L > set) are in the same position for each of the six slots - and the two roms > that don't appear are the only two roms that use both H and L sockets. So > this makes me wonder if they were plugged in but the jumpers just never set > right. Anyone have docs on just how those jumpers are supposed to be set? >From memory.... This machine has an 80C86 (not 80C88) processor, it has a full 16 bit databus, therefore. The H and L sockets are the high and low byte of the databus (the ROMs, as usual, being 8 bits wide). There are basically 2 types of ROM format. Either for 8 bits wide in a single ROM chip which can go in any socket, or 16 bits wide, in a pair of ROMs, which have to go in n H and L pair of sockets, and the right way round. The advantage of the latter type is that you can execute programs directly from the ROM without having to copy them into RAM first, this is useful with big programs and limited RAM. I can't rememebr what all the jumpers do, but it's not really one per pair of sockets. I do remember one of the functions, though. The sockets can take up to 128K byte devices, but the largest _EPROM_ you could use was a 32K byte one, larger ROMs had to be mask-programmed. It's possible, but settign the jumpers correctly, to take over 4 sets of sockets to take EPROMs and appear as a single 128K chip. The idea of that was if you wanted to produce a 128K byte ROM, you could test your code in EPROMs before having the thousand mask-programmed chips made. However, one company (not HP) had a much better solution. They made up little carrier boards that fitted into the 28 pin sockets on the 110+, and which had a 32 pin PLCC EPROM (either windowed or OTP) soldered to it. At one end of the board was a 5 pin header. In normal use you put jumpers on pins 1-2 and 4-5, the thing then appeared as a 128K masked ROM. To program it, you used a special modifed programmer (it was something called a ROMBO IIRC), that had a cable that connected to the header to provided VPP, the programming pulse, etc. I have one of the programmers on extended loan from HPCC (it's more use in my workshop than in another member's loft), I also have a couple of the EPROM modules. Sometime I should trace out the connections, etc. If you really want me to, I can work out the functions of the jumpers from the manual. Personally, I've never needed to change the ones in my machine. > > > I assume you've got an MS-DOS prompt by now. Try DIR B: and see what > > shows up. > Everything that should, except the two app roms mentioned above. I would start by re-seating those 2 ROMs, and if that doesn't help, move them to other sockets in the drawer. > > > No, there's only one battery, the 6V lead acid one. > Ok, then the first order of business is to seek out a replacement battery if > one can be found! 3 off 2.5Ah Cyclon cells will fit perfectly. You'll have to solder up straps to link them together, and solder then to the terminal board taken from the original battery, but it can be done. My 110+ and 110 (which uses a slightly different battery) have that arrangement. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 17:51:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:51:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP50960A HP server In-Reply-To: <000501c6e457$bcff6660$0f00a8c0@dorisland.net> from "James C. Geneva" at Sep 30, 6 00:14:49 am Message-ID: > > Hello: > > I saw a post you made on the HP SRM server did you ever do anything with = > it? Not yet... I am sort-of getting into HP9000/200 series stuff at the moment, this machine is clearly related to those (it's the same box, PSU, and backplane as a 9817, but the CPU board is _very_ different!), so I might well look at it sometime soon-ish... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 17:58:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:58:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free OS CD-ROMs Message-ID: A friend of mine (in the UK) has some OS/utility CD-ROMs that he has no use for, and I don't either. AFAIK he'll give them away for the cost of postage, etc. Here's a list : > >> IRIX 5.3 for indy > >> IRIX C++ 4.0 > >> IRIX F77 4.0.2 > >> IRIX 5.3 for R4400 > >> IRIS development 5.3 > >> IRIS exec env 4.0 > >> SunOS 4.1.1 > >> Solaris 2.3 Please contact : alanb at chiark.greenend.org.uk if you're interested. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 29 18:06:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 00:06:23 +2500 (BST) Subject: hp110+ info In-Reply-To: <002101c6e4e1$4615dbd0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Sep 30, 6 05:39:17 pm Message-ID: > > Frank wrote.... > > Turn the Portable Plus off with PAM f8. Press and hold Extend char > > and Shift, then press and hold f8 for at least five seconds. When you > > let go it will start up with a diagnostic menu. > > That's awesome info Frank, thanks! The diagnostic shows two bad roms, and > they happen to be the only two high order roms of the only two rom sets in > the machine (lotus & executive card manager). Dp you have any other ROMs in the 'H' sockets? If not, it's possible you have a bad buffer chip or something. > > Are the rom blanks a common chip? Anyone have images I can download and burn See my other message. Those are almost certainly 128K ROMs, and there is no standard EPROM equivalent. I have seen the modules on E-bay _once_, but they are not common. > (or chips I can borrow & copy)? > > I just love the Reflection1 terminal emulation. Someday I may have to dig > into the rom format. I was thinking (depending on the size of the roms) that It is docuemnted!. Let me know if/when you want me to type it up from the technical manual... -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 30 18:15:06 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 19:15:06 -0400 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <001301c6e4be$947d8110$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00c901c6e434$04c046a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001301c6e4be$947d8110$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200609301915.06982.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 30 September 2006 02:30 pm, Jay West wrote: > Ok, I went there and took a picture, you can see it at > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit/09300001.JPG Definitely newer than the stuff I worked with, that had only FH floppy drives... > The monitor hooks up to the cpu with an odd "dual din cable". Two din > connectors on each end, one has about 9 pins the other has about 5 pins. The > monitor obviously gets both power and data on this dual cable. Yeah, I'd forgotten about that. And in a system that gets moved or whatever where those get plugged/unplugged a lot that's a source of trouble, particularly when one of the connections in the power plug gets a little loose. > The CPU appears to be something called a "Wang Professional Computer" from > what I can glean from the docs. The model tag on the back is extremely > faded black print on silver so it's just a shadow. Sounds like old thermal printing to me. > It seems to say the model is something vaguely like PM-XC1. There is an IBM > mono "module" which has a part number something like PM101 The original machines were not hardware compatible with the "IBM PC" so they added that board to give that compatibility, I forget exactly what it does, but it's some sort of remapping of hardware. > and a "winchester controller module" which has a part number like PM029. The host adapter for the HD. > From just a 30 second skim of some of the manuals it appears to be running > a very customized version of DOS. The proprietary changes to the OS appear > to be more than just cosmetic. Two things come to mind offhand: One is that the "switch character" is going to be "-" instead of "/", and the other is that there's going to be provision in at least some stuff for that odd keyboard that Wang used -- which had a return key and a separate "execute" key, now that I'm thinking about it. I'd forgotten about that... > The price was reasonable so I picked it up. The seller said it came from a > WANG dealer - since there's a lot of what appear to be diagnostics & test > diskettes, I would imagine that's the case. I will play with it for a bit, > but may well be interested in trading it off. I did note that the seller > had more of the proprietary CRT's and dual din cables if those are of > interest. That system being newer than the stuff I worked with, there may be someone who's interested. When I had that last "Wang PC" around I couldn't even give it away, even to the one person I knew of that still had one (they had it in a closet, they told me). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 30 18:17:09 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 19:17:09 -0400 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <000c01c6e4c8$4a5ba530$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000c01c6e4c8$4a5ba530$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200609301917.09631.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 30 September 2006 03:40 pm, Jay West wrote: > I took more pictures of the unit after removing the chassis. They can be > found at: > > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/wang > > The cpu main board is definitely the large L-shaped one that Roy Tellason > mentioned. Just eyeballing it, but what kind of backplane connectors are > those? They look larger than ISA connectors and appear to be 86 pin. Speaking of which, I probably still have the backplane left and maybe some slot covers and that drive mounting plate that I mentioned in an earlier post left over from that unit I had here. Maybe. I'll have to look, if anyone's interested. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 30 18:20:21 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 19:20:21 -0400 Subject: hp110+ info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609301920.21282.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 30 September 2006 06:49 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > No, there's only one battery, the 6V lead acid one. > > > > Ok, then the first order of business is to seek out a replacement battery > > if one can be found! > > 3 off 2.5Ah Cyclon cells will fit perfectly. You'll have to solder up > straps to link them together, and solder then to the terminal board taken > from the original battery, but it can be done. My 110+ and 110 (which > uses a slightly different battery) have that arrangement. If that's what you can get, yeah, but there are 3- and 6-cell arrangements of those also commonly available as well. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 19:31:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 01:31:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp110+ info In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 1, 6 00:06:23 am Message-ID: > Dp you have any other ROMs in the 'H' sockets? If not, it's possible you > have a bad buffer chip or something. Specifically U5 (74HC245) on the ROM drawer PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 19:38:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 01:38:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp110+ info In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Sep 30, 6 11:49:10 pm Message-ID: > > On thing I'm curious about is the jumpers inside the software drawer. Any > > docs on those? It may be coincidence, but all the jumpers (one for each H/L Extracted from the Technical Reference Manual. Small group (sockets 0 and 1) XW1 Banks 0 and 1 : Independant ROM pairs -- A Independant EPROM pairs -- B Large group (sockets 4, 5, 6, 7) XW2 XW3 XW4 XW5 XW6 Banks 4,5,6,7 : Independant ROM pairs -- A A A A A Banks 4,5,6,7 : Independant EPROM pairs -- B - B B B Bank 7 : Up to 4 cascaded pairs of 32K ROM A B B B B Bank 7 : Up to 4 cascaded pairs of 32K EPROM B B B B B Where '-' means don't care. The cascaded modes let you use 4 pairs f sockets to emulate a 128K ROM. They are fitted in order 5 6 7 4 (not the obvious one!), and appear as bank 7. Banks 4,5,6 do not exist in this mode. The factoru configuration is to have all jumpers in position A, that is for indepenadnnt ROMs in all banks. -tony