From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon May 1 00:24:19 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:24:19 -0700 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <200604302020.k3UKK54L024107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200604302020.k3UKK54L024107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <44559B83.8070209@mindspring.com> Dennis Boone wrote: > > > Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my > > > industrial computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to > > > the latest piece of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? > > > > Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember > > (very vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, > > ages ago, but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that > > used it. > > Bell did indeed invent the rack, as far as I know from my telco > friends. And some telecom gear used or uses the wider format. > In fact, some computer industry racks have both sizes of mount in > them; look at the Dell racks, for example. > > Telcos tend to view racks as flat devices, and gear going into them > is fairly shallow. If it's big, it's big up-and-down > I currently work for a big datacom supplier, and design a lot of rack mount equipment. The current major datacom/telecom customers invariably want all equipment to fit in standard 19" two or four post racks. They really don't like the 23" width (not 24" width) at all, and really balk at buying a chassis that requires a 23" rack. More interesting is the concept of 'U' when it comes to racks. All equipment is in units of 'U' (a standard 8' rack is 44U), which is 1.75". So anyone know where 'U' came from, and why it is called 'U'? AK6DN From bernd at kopriva.de Mon May 1 02:12:43 2006 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 09:12:43 +0200 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal 3.2 : HFS on HP9133L In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060417111120.413fb97c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20060501073206.01AEB39781@linux.local> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:11:20, Joe R. wrote: >At 09:21 AM 4/17/06 +0200, you wrote: >>Hi, >>i'm currently trying to initialize my HP9133L with the HFS file system, >but executing MKHFS only >>runs into an integer overflow exception ... > > I've run into sitauations like this. It SEEMS like some OS will only run >on certain machines and will give errors like this if they're run on other >(lesser?) CPUs. I wasn't seriously interested in the bigger HP 9000/300s so >I never pursued the matter further. ... i've not used one of the 9000/300 bigger machines, but a "common" HP 9836C. I thought, that it might be an issue with the harddisk size of the 9133L. I tried several partition sizes, but everytime, the same failure occurs, so replacing the 40 MB drive with a smaller one might not be successful too. I found an older Basic version 5.x. With this one, i was able to create a HFS volume, that can be somehow accessed by my Pascal version: i can see the directories, but accessing files will lead to an integer overflow again :( What Pascal version is required to gain HFS compatibility with Basic 6.4 ? What's the latest version of HP Pascal, that's available (i saw somewhere a reference to 3.25), is there a chance to get a copy ? Thanks Bernd Bernd Kopriva Tel: 07195 / 179452 Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail : bernd at kopriva.de 71397 Leutenbach From bqt at update.uu.se Mon May 1 03:10:47 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 10:10:47 +0200 Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <200604301700.k3UH04IN024370@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604301700.k3UH04IN024370@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4455C287.1000007@update.uu.se> "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: >Ok, I will get to it right away, Johnny! Good. >I will see if you changed the hex numbers (back) to octal numbers :-) Oops. No. I should do that... :-) >Can somebody explain te difference between >"VBGEXE ZEMU" and "VBGEXE" and then enter on the VBGEXE >prompt the file name (ZEMU.SAV) ? >Hi Johnny, > >I can not get access to ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/ ... >anonymous is not accepting my e-mail addresses >(gooiAToceDOTnl or henkDOTgooijenAToceDOTcom) >and I do not know the guest account password ... Weird. Hmm. There is no guest account. The anonymous account should accept pretty much anything you throw at it as a password. Try again? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 1 03:28:52 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:28:52 +0200 Subject: Zemu Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816DA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Johnny, I tried again to download 'zemu.tar' via the link on the webpage http://64.253.97.239/pdp11/pdp11.htm which did work fine last week. Now I get: "HTTP 500 - Internal server error Internet Explorer" and the (Windows) text is "The page cannot be displayed. There is a problem with the page you are trying to reach and it cannot be displayed." - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: maandag 1 mei 2006 10:11 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Zemu > > "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > > >Ok, I will get to it right away, Johnny! > > Good. > > >I will see if you changed the hex numbers (back) to octal > numbers :-) > > Oops. No. I should do that... :-) > > >Can somebody explain te difference between >"VBGEXE ZEMU" > and "VBGEXE" and then enter on the VBGEXE >prompt the file > name (ZEMU.SAV) ? > > >Hi Johnny, > > > >I can not get access to ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/ ... > >anonymous is not accepting my e-mail addresses > >(gooiAToceDOTnl or henkDOTgooijenAToceDOTcom) >and I do not > know the guest account password ... > > Weird. Hmm. There is no guest account. The anonymous account > should accept pretty much anything you throw at it as a password. > Try again? > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From roosmcd at dds.nl Mon May 1 03:50:30 2006 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd at dds.nl) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 10:50:30 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 33, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <200605010837.k418arYd031444@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200605010837.k418arYd031444@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1146473430.4455cbd6cd375@webmail.dds.nl> Don North wrote: >I currently work for a big datacom supplier, and design a lot of rack >mount equipment. The current major datacom/telecom customers invariably >want all equipment to fit in standard 19" two or four post racks. They >really don't like the 23" width (not 24" width) at all, and really balk >at buying a chassis that requires a 23" rack. And there's also 21".... Of course one notices these things when trying to mount 19" gear in the rack :). >More interesting is the concept of 'U' when it comes to racks. All >equipment is in units of 'U' (a standard 8' rack is 44U), which is >1.75". So anyone know where 'U' came from, and why it is called 'U'? Unit? greetings, Michiel From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon May 1 03:01:49 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 09:01:49 +0100 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 30 Apr 2006 17:57:50 CDT." <6.2.3.4.2.20060430175451.05831528@mail> Message-ID: <200605010801.JAA15146@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, John Foust said: > At 02:49 PM 4/30/2006, John Allain wrote: > >Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my industrial > >computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece of > >equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? > > Everyone else voted for telco, but I'll place a bet on the radio industry. > And/or the radio industry of the military. It's a standard, isn't it? > Why, just Friday I bought a surplus 19" rack, and the other rack next > to it that I passed by was old enough to have the black wrinkle paint > as well as a US Navy property tag. The Collins 51J-1 radio receiver of 1949 was 19-inch rack mounting and I'm sure it wasn't the first. I think the HRO radio of 1934 was available in rack mounting, but what width I don't know. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 1 05:33:18 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 06:33:18 -0400 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <0f4f01c66ca8$02f5b340$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> <001801c66c96$6fc1bda0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <0f4f01c66ca8$02f5b340$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20060501103318.1907CBA48E4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "John Allain" wrote: > > 19" racks are the defacto standard in the computer industry. > > Beginning to sound like DEC set the 19" computing standard, > perhaps just out of convenience, just picking one available width, > and sticking with it, starting as early as the late 1950's I'm not so sure you can attribute it to DEC. Even in the 40's and 50's, for example, most rack-mountable radio and electronics test equipment fit in 19" racks, and this pretty drove the instrumentation and process control into the 19" form factor, and that's the industry that DEC was in even before they started making computers. So yeah, DEC was one of the early instrumentation/ process control manufacturers to make computers, but I wouldn't say they "picked" that standard. Tim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 1 09:04:22 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:04:22 -0500 Subject: 19" Rack History References: <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06><200604302020.k3UKK54L024107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <44559B83.8070209@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <004b01c66d28$2698def0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Don wrote..... > I currently work for a big datacom supplier, and design a lot of rack > mount equipment. The current major datacom/telecom customers invariably > want all equipment to fit in standard 19" two or four post racks. They > really don't like the 23" width (not 24" width) at all, and really balk at > buying a chassis that requires a 23" rack. Datacom != Telecom The folks you are seeing that balk at the 24" racks must be more datacom than telecom. Most telecom stuff is 24" rack mount form factor. As I said, there is SOME crossover, because some computer companies put their gear in 24" racks, someone pointed out IBM for example, and nowdays telecom centers generally have a lot of datacom gear too. But the general common standard is 19" for computer stuff and 24" for telco stuff. And most telcom stuff comes with it's own racks, so working at a supplier you're less likely to see it. > More interesting is the concept of 'U' when it comes to racks. All > equipment is in units of 'U' (a standard 8' rack is 44U), which is 1.75". > So anyone know where 'U' came from, and why it is called 'U'? Where on earth did you come up with a standard rack being 8"? Definitely not. As to U'units, other than it is a TIA/EIA standard, no clue. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 1 09:05:53 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:05:53 -0500 Subject: 19" Rack History References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com><002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06><200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net><001801c66c96$6fc1bda0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><0f4f01c66ca8$02f5b340$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <20060501103318.1907CBA48E4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <005001c66d28$5ca1e0f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Someone wrote... > I'm not so sure you can attribute it to DEC. Even in the 40's and > 50's, for example, most rack-mountable radio and electronics > test equipment fit in 19" racks, and this pretty drove... Can't attribute this one to DEC. 19" racks were a standard size long before they (DEC) were on the scene. Jay From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 1 09:42:01 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 09:42:01 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal 3.2 : HFS on HP9133L In-Reply-To: <20060501073206.01AEB39781@linux.local> References: <3.0.6.16.20060417111120.413fb97c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060501094201.34df33fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:12 AM 5/1/06 +0200, Bernd wrote: >On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:11:20, Joe R. wrote: > >>At 09:21 AM 4/17/06 +0200, you wrote: >>>Hi, >>>i'm currently trying to initialize my HP9133L with the HFS file system, >>but executing MKHFS only >>>runs into an integer overflow exception ... >> >> I've run into sitauations like this. It SEEMS like some OS will only run >>on certain machines and will give errors like this if they're run on other >>(lesser?) CPUs. I wasn't seriously interested in the bigger HP 9000/300s so >>I never pursued the matter further. >... i've not used one of the 9000/300 bigger machines, but a "common" HP 9836C. >I thought, that it might be an issue with the harddisk size of the 9133L. >I tried several partition sizes, but everytime, the same failure occurs, so replacing the >40 MB drive with a smaller one might not be successful too. > >I found an older Basic version 5.x. With this one, i was able to create a HFS volume, >that can be somehow accessed by my Pascal version: i can see the directories, but >accessing files will lead to an integer overflow again :( > >What Pascal version is required to gain HFS compatibility with Basic 6.4 ? I have NO idea! And I doubt HP even mentions it in their docs. >What's the latest version of HP Pascal, that's available (i saw somewhere a reference >to 3.25), is there a chance to get a copy ? I'm afraid that I can't tell you. I've sent ALL of my HP docs to Al to be scanned. I THINK in the stack somewhere there are some charts showing what versions are supported on the different machines but it would just be a matter of looking through the stuff till you found it. The last time I looked Al had some of the stuff on-line. I expect that he has it all on-line by now. I'll try to look in my stuff and see if I have Pascal install SW and if so what version. I suspect that if I have one it's going to be old. Joe > >Thanks Bernd > > >Bernd Kopriva Tel: 07195 / 179452 >Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail : bernd at kopriva.de >71397 Leutenbach > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 1 09:35:15 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 09:35:15 Subject: 2645A terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060501093515.34f7e954@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> And the winner is.... Al Kossow! Are you taking them all Al? Joe At 06:58 PM 4/30/06 -0700, you wrote: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8804457336 > >he says he has 50 more. > >note there doesn't appear to be any CRT mold. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 1 10:18:18 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 10:18:18 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal 3.2 : HFS on HP9133L Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060501101818.34f7602c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> BTW I just noticed on that someone has a Pascal 3.1 manual on e-bay. Item number: 7607549442 I think I sent a copy of this to Al to be scaned but who knows, this may have something different in it. Joe From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 1 10:48:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 08:48:30 -0700 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <20060501103318.1907CBA48E4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> <001801c66c96$6fc1bda0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <0f4f01c66ca8$02f5b340$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <20060501103318.1907CBA48E4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9@10.0.0.252> IIRC, 19" racks go back before WWII. I'll have to check one or two of my old electronics books, but my guess is that the size originiated in the 1920's. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 1 11:22:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 10:22:40 -0600 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 01 May 2006 08:48:30 -0700. <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > IIRC, 19" racks go back before WWII. I'll have to check one or two of my > old electronics books, but my guess is that the size originiated in the > 1920's. It would be cool if we could find out why everyone standardized on 19 inches. Is that the dimension of the inside of the rack mount area, or the width of the rack itself including posts? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 1 12:12:49 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:12:49 -0400 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605011312.49536.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 01 May 2006 12:22, Richard wrote: > In article <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9 at 10.0.0.252>, > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > IIRC, 19" racks go back before WWII. I'll have to check one or two > > of my old electronics books, but my guess is that the size > > originiated in the 1920's. > > It would be cool if we could find out why everyone standardized on > 19 inches. > > Is that the dimension of the inside of the rack mount area, or the > width of the rack itself including posts? Neither. It's generally the width of the frontplate of something that you mount in the rack, including holes for screws, etc. Go measure the rack your 11/03 is in. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon May 1 12:31:04 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:31:04 -0700 Subject: 19" Rack History Message-ID: When I was in the Army (Signal Corps), they told us the 19" standard was from Germany, during WWI. It was actually .5 meters and used on all their early military electronics. But I have no data whatsoever to back this up. It was just one or two instructors and probably pure bull shit. Billy From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon May 1 12:34:32 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:34:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605011736.NAA04417@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > When I was in the Army (Signal Corps), they told us the 19" standard > was from Germany, during WWI. It was actually .5 meters and used on > all their early military electronics. This seems unlikely to me. 19" differs from .5 metres by nearly 1? cm (19*2.54=48.26), and that's a lot for rackmount equipment widths. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon May 1 12:51:10 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:51:10 -0700 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9@10.0.0.252> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <20060501103318.1907CBA48E4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605011051.10441.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Here's an interesting link on the subject. The short of it the origin of 19" racks were as Telco switching "relay racks". http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From technobug at comcast.net Mon May 1 13:01:32 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 11:01:32 -0700 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <200605011700.k41H04gW034990@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200605011700.k41H04gW034990@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <205A195D-5885-445F-BBD1-D9AEE0154879@comcast.net> I think the standard probably had its origins a bit further: My 1919 Westinghouse Catalogue lists control desks that have sections of 16, 20, 24, and 32" wide. The section was covered by a panel that spanned the width of the cabinet - the equipment was intended to be mounted on this panel. From the drawings it looks like the actual space within the sections would be an inch or so less - the specifications are a bit lacking. A 3'x20" rack with side panels ran $817.50! From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 1 12:59:10 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 12:59:10 -0500 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <200605011051.10441.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <20060501103318.1907CBA48E4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9@10.0.0.252> <200605011051.10441.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060501125854.103a97e0@mail> At 12:51 PM 5/1/2006, you wrote: >Here's an interesting link on the subject. The short of it the origin of 19" >racks were as Telco switching "relay racks". > >http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack That's a copy of the Wikipedia article. - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 1 14:21:14 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 14:21:14 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <44506AFE.7090405@DakotaCom.Net> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426204855.413f4c6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060426204855.413f4c6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060501142114.3b17a392@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:55 PM 4/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote: >> Oh, what the hell! I sent outside and dug the rest of the stuff out of >> the car. Here's what I have: >> >> 6800/02/08, 65xx, 8085, Z-80 and 27xx (programmer?). Looks like a nice >> collection of vintage stuff! Here at last is a picture of one of the American Automation (American Arium EZ-Pro) boards and pods that I found. This is the 6800/02/08 board and pod. Joe From evan at snarc.net Mon May 1 13:28:16 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:28:16 -0400 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060501125854.103a97e0@mail> Message-ID: <001d01c66d4d$04a10a50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Post-VCF, I'll have time to get the old Computer Collector Newsletter back on track, so perhaps I'll start with an article about this. Should be fun to see what the phone companies have to say. I suspect that the IEEE History Center might have some insight too. -----Original Message----- From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust at threedee.com] Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 1:59 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 19" Rack History At 12:51 PM 5/1/2006, you wrote: >Here's an interesting link on the subject. The short of it the origin of 19" >racks were as Telco switching "relay racks". > >http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack That's a copy of the Wikipedia article. - John From jdrcpeterson at graceba.net Mon May 1 13:45:35 2006 From: jdrcpeterson at graceba.net (j. darren peterson) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:45:35 -0500 Subject: Heurikon HK68/V4F boards Message-ID: <015201c66d4f$6f2f69a0$3b1a939b@nase.ds.army.mil> Anyone have or know of Heurikon VME data acquisition boards, HK68/V4F? Thanks! Darren Peterson From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 1 13:55:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 12:55:07 -0600 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 01 May 2006 10:51:10 -0700. <200605011051.10441.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200605011051.10441.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > Here's an interesting link on the subject. The short of it the origin of 19" > racks were as Telco switching "relay racks". > > http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack This is really the wikipedia article on 19" racks with someone else's HTML wrapped around it. I guess wikipedia must be succeeding if people are feeling they need to steal its content and present it as their own! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 1 14:06:35 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 15:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060501190635.ADA175814C@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Richard > > > In article <200605011051.10441.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, > Lyle Bickley writes: > > > Here's an interesting link on the subject. The short of it the origin of 19" > > racks were as Telco switching "relay racks". > > > > http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack > > This is really the wikipedia article on 19" racks with someone else's > HTML wrapped around it. I guess wikipedia must be succeeding if > people are feeling they need to steal its content and present it as > their own! > -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_free_dictionary has a little blurb about The Free Dictionary mirroring Wikipedia. Cheers, Bryan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 1 15:06:21 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 15:06:21 Subject: Heurikon HK68/V4F boards In-Reply-To: <015201c66d4f$6f2f69a0$3b1a939b@nase.ds.army.mil> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060501150621.4b9f4a4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FWIW I have some Heurikon Multibus baords but I've never been able to find any info on them. FWIW2 Heurikon used to be located in Madison Wisconsin or someplace like that. I haven't been able to find any record of them in recent years. Joe At 01:45 PM 5/1/06 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone have or know of Heurikon VME data acquisition boards, HK68/V4F? > >Thanks! > >Darren Peterson > From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 1 14:17:04 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 12:17:04 -0700 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060501142114.3b17a392@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426204855.413f4c6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060426204855.413f4c6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060501142114.3b17a392@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <44565EB0.1000201@DakotaCom.Net> Joe R. wrote: > At 11:55 PM 4/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >> Joe R. wrote: >>> Oh, what the hell! I sent outside and dug the rest of the stuff out of >>> the car. Here's what I have: >>> >>> 6800/02/08, 65xx, 8085, Z-80 and 27xx (programmer?). Looks like a nice >>> collection of vintage stuff! > > Here at last is a picture of one of the American Automation (American > Arium EZ-Pro) boards and pods that I found. This is the 6800/02/08 board > and pod. The top card goes into the "chassis" (it's about the size of a mini-AT tower but considerably heavier due to the power supply). The white connector along the bottom edge of the card mates with the "backplane" in the chassis. (and, actually *supports* the card... I don't believe there are any "card guides" in the chassis!) The lower "box" is the "pod". Ribbon cables connect it to the card (above). Often, (always?) those ribbon cables have two (or even THREE) IDC connectors on the end at 1" intervals to connect to that card plus adjacent cards in the chassis (e.g., the high speed memory card). Note that this pod and the aforementioned card are a *set* -- two halves of a "ribbon cable interface", so to speak. Later (newer) pods had more brains in them so the emulator cards got simpler... (but the pods got BIGGER!) The 40 pin DIP "plug" attaches the pod to your target hardware. (a good idea is to slip another machined pin DIP socket onto that plug so that any pins that get broken are on the *socket* and not the plug itself -- even if the plug already has a socket snapped onto it!) If you can find a chasis, I can try to find the debugger software for this particular CPU... From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon May 1 14:13:09 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:13:09 -0500 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <44559B83.8070209@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 12:24 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 19" Rack History > I currently work for a big datacom supplier, and design a lot of rack > mount equipment. The current major datacom/telecom customers invariably > want all equipment to fit in standard 19" two or four post racks. They > really don't like the 23" width (not 24" width) at all, and really balk > at buying a chassis that requires a 23" rack. > > More interesting is the concept of 'U' when it comes to racks. All > equipment is in units of 'U' (a standard 8' rack is 44U), which is > 1.75". So anyone know where 'U' came from, and why it is called 'U'? > > AK6DN Even more confusion was added by DEC when they created the 5.25" tall "System unit" standard - i.e. any 5.25" high box like a BA23 etc. So, if you enjoy confusing people, or just want to correct somebody for no reason, start a debate that a 2U device is 10.5" tall :) From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 1 14:27:09 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 14:27:09 -0500 Subject: Heurikon HK68/V4F boards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060501150621.4b9f4a4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <015201c66d4f$6f2f69a0$3b1a939b@nase.ds.army.mil> <3.0.6.16.20060501150621.4b9f4a4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060501142525.0576ce18@mail> At 10:06 AM 5/1/2006, Joe R. wrote: > FWIW I have some Heurikon Multibus baords but I've never been able to >find any info on them. > FWIW2 Heurikon used to be located in Madison Wisconsin or someplace >like that. I haven't been able to find any record of them in recent years. Since 1998 or so, now known as Artesyn: http://www.artesyncp.com/ I known some people who work there, I might be able to give a lead. (Nicolet is another classic-related company in Madison. If an engineer got tired of working at one company, he might've shifted to the other.) - John From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 1 14:46:35 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 12:46:35 -0700 Subject: Software archiving news from the Computer History Museum Message-ID: Just wanted to mention that I've joined the staff of the Computer History Museum as Software Curator. I can be reached at my bitsavers address or my new address at the Museum. I'm hoping to expand the CHM collection by becoming more proactive in trying to locate and archive what early software still survives, which means trying to contact people who might still have old media and listings, especially from the seventies and earlier. http://www.computerhistory.org/about/staff/kossow/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 1 15:00:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 14:00:22 -0600 Subject: collection management system for web? Message-ID: So what does everyone use to manage an exhibit of their collection as a web browsable thing? So far I've been hand-editing HTML, but its getting a little laborious and I'm wondering what sort of open source PHP/MySQL content management system out there might be apropos for such a thing. I'm using drupal for a web site I'm doing and that seems to fit well with the collaborative nature of the site, but I'm not so sure it would be best for managing a collection site. What do you use? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon May 1 15:12:25 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 16:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605012017.QAA05953@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > So what does everyone use to manage an exhibit of their collection as > a web browsable thing? [...] > What do you use? Actually, I don't. I don't do the Web (generally speaking - I do have bozohttpd serving up the contents of my anon ftp area over http, and I have a few things up for http fetch with things like "nc -server 'websend text/plain file.txt' 12345", but that's it). I have no particular desire to "exhibit [my] collection as a web browsable thing". I know, not very helpful. But you did ask. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 1 15:26:43 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 22:26:43 +0200 Subject: Zemu References: <200604301700.k3UH04IN024370@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4455C287.1000007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20110@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Johnny. I downloaded zemu.tar again. I unzipped it, and the first thing I noticed (forgot to say that in the previous e-mail) is that the files "get" and "get~" are no longer in the .tar file. RT-11 has a problem with copying "get~". Perhaps I did not *download* from 'update' this afternoon a new copy but got it from a cache somewhere! I also checked the other files and they look OK. So I copied them into RT11 in SIMH and started the build of ZEMU again. There are no errors reported, so the hex is indeed modified to octal :-) The bad news is that ZEMU still dies. I attached the output again. I will zip this and send it to Zane. If he gets it running we can conclude that the library differences between v5.3 and v5.7 are a problem. I'll keep you posted of any developments! thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 1 15:34:16 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 22:34:16 +0200 Subject: Zemu References: <200604301700.k3UH04IN024370@dewey.classiccmp.org><4455C287.1000007@update.uu.se> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20110@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20112@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Oops, that should have been off-list ... This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 1 15:38:04 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: from Richard at "May 1, 6 02:00:22 pm" Message-ID: <200605012038.k41Kc4XG018864@floodgap.com> > What do you use? Homegrown scripts and handwritten pages. I don't go for those big content management systems, as they tend to be interface- and maintenance-heavy. I liken them to using a Mercedes to swat a gnat. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson ------------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 1 15:32:45 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 21:32:45 +0100 Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4456706D.2040807@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > So what does everyone use to manage an exhibit of their collection as > a web browsable thing? > > So far I've been hand-editing HTML, but its getting a little laborious > and I'm wondering what sort of open source PHP/MySQL content > management system out there might be apropos for such a thing. Depends where on the scale you want your site to be I suppose: straight picture site at one end, or a more descriptive site with a lot of textual content and images just to brighten the place up a bit at the other. There are probably numerous image gallery type apps/engines around to do the former (and several of them use database-driven back ends). The latter case though I expect you're going to be investing so much time in writing text and messing around with layouts that you may as well hand craft the whole thing anyway. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 1 15:44:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 13:44:17 -0700 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605011344170264.B9F4A4A2@10.0.0.252> Just checked a 1939 Radio handbook--construction there is for 17" chassis fitting on a "standard" relay rack panel, so I'm assuming that 19" was a "standard" even back then. Looking at some of the old transmitter power supply designs reminds one how much weight one of those panels could support. There are ads for both Bud and Par Metal, but no specifics. When I worked in steel-mill process control before "computers", none of the installations used relay rack construction. Usually a large 1/4" steel panel was simply welded into place with L- or U-channel backing it. Holes were then cut and drilled to mount everything. Of course, this was mostly electro-pneumatic or electro-hydraulic control, so relay rack panels probably made no sense. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 1 16:16:31 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20110@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at May 01, 2006 10:26:43 PM Message-ID: <200605012116.k41LGVWe021326@onyx.spiritone.com> > The bad news is that ZEMU still dies. > I attached the output again. > I will zip this and send it to Zane. If he gets it running we can > conclude that the library differences between v5.3 and v5.7 are a problem. It now builds cleanly, however, it doesn't seem to work on V5.7, unless it needs started in a different manner. BTW, the previous version from last week bombs in the same (or just about the same) manner. Zane .VBGEXE Program? dl1:zemu [ZINIT: FREEPT = END = 100032] [ZALLOC: Requested size = 80. bytes] [ZALLOC: FREEPT = END = 100152] [ZALLOC: Memory allocated at 100032] [ZINIT: Qelement space at 100032, size = 80. bytes] ZEMU/RT X00.19 Game filename? SY:ZORK1.DAT [INPEND: timer cancelled] [ZALLOC: Requested size = 1024. bytes] [ZALLOC: FREEPT = END = 102152] [ZALLOC: Memory allocated at 100152] [ZALLOC: Requested size = 512. bytes] [ZALLOC: FREEPT = END = 103152] [ZALLOC: Memory allocated at 102152] [ZBLK: BADDR = 102152, BPAGE = 0., BCNT = 512. bytes] [GETRND: returning 045023 as seed] [ZALLOC: Requested size = 11776. bytes] [ZALLOC: FREEPT = END = 132152] [ZALLOC: Memory allocated at 103152] [ZBLK: BADDR = 102152, BPAGE = 0., BCNT = 12288. bytes] [ZALLOC: Requested size = 512. bytes] [ZALLOC: FREEPT = END = 133152] [ZALLOC: Memory allocated at 132152] [ZALLOC: Requested size = 512. bytes] [ZALLOC: FREEPT = END = 134152] [ZALLOC: Memory allocated at 133152] [ZALLOC: Requested size = 512. bytes] [ZALLOC: FREEPT = END = 135152] [ZALLOC: Memory allocated at 134152] [ZALLOC: Requested size = 512. bytes] [ZALLOC: FREEPT = END = 136152] [ZBLK: BADDR = 143152, BPAGE = 39., BCNT = 512. bytes] ?MON-F-Trap to 4 102156 From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 1 16:35:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 15:35:57 -0600 Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 01 May 2006 21:32:45 +0100. <4456706D.2040807@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4456706D.2040807 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > There are probably numerous image gallery type apps/engines around to do the > former (and several of them use database-driven back ends). The latter case > though I expect you're going to be investing so much time in writing text and > messing around with layouts that you may as well hand craft the whole thing > anyway. This is pretty much a boiler plate task, so having a boiler plate template saves lots of time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mcesari at comcast.net Mon May 1 17:47:23 2006 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 16:47:23 -0600 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <200605011051.10441.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <20060501103318.1907CBA48E4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200605010848300922.B8E5DCB9@10.0.0.252> <200605011051.10441.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On May 1, 2006, at 11:51 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Here's an interesting link on the subject. The short of it the > origin of 19" > racks were as Telco switching "relay racks". > > http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/19%20inch%20rack And the rest of the story (so to speak) as to _why_ 19": I asked a fellow "middle aged" phart who (also) worked with genuine Bell System auld pharts to verify my memory of where this came from -- it was all a matter of convenience (and cost). The engineering department (Bell Labs) planned equipment layouts based on a 24" grid system. To build the relay racks, channel iron 2.5" deep (measured on the outside) was used as it was very common and relatively cheap. 24 - (2.5*2) = 19 inches for the shelf space. The above was designed for the first relay-based telephone switches. Mike From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 1 18:23:22 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 16:23:22 -0700 Subject: uScope 820 Message-ID: <4456986A.1080201@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, Can anyone verify that this box (1976 vintage) also handles 8080's? I'm *sure* I had an 8080 "personality module" for mine but I can't seem to find it (nor the overlay or the pod). (sigh) I've got to get this mess sorted out so finding things is easier! --don From allain at panix.com Mon May 1 19:02:02 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 20:02:02 -0400 Subject: collection management system for web? References: Message-ID: <003f01c66d7b$a4ba0fe0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Flat file for personal records --> goes well into --> excel import for table assignment --> goes well into --> HTML export for table creation. How I used to publish simple databases. John A. From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 1 19:09:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 18:09:41 -0600 Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 01 May 2006 20:02:02 -0400. <003f01c66d7b$a4ba0fe0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <003f01c66d7b$a4ba0fe0$21fe54a6 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > How I used to publish simple databases. Yeah, but what's evolving on my web space is no longer just a simple inventory list. I want to include interpretive histories, links to online documentation and software, hardware serial numbers, photos, etc. Its becoming a big pile of metadata and although I can still manage it manually, I can also see that this will no longer be the case in a little while. There was a similar "do it yourself" set of advice when it came to cataloging my books, but instead was the perfect answer to my problems. I don't want to write my own PHP/MySQL collection/database management system. (Hell, if I didn't want to be a database monkey in 1978 when learning RSTS/E on the PDP-11/70, I sure as hell don't want to be a database monkey in 2006!) If noone is using a content management system that they like and would care to recommend, that's fine, but I thought I'd ask first. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon May 1 19:23:01 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 17:23:01 -0700 Subject: uScope 820 In-Reply-To: <4456986A.1080201@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4456986A.1080201@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90605011723j781783f3n470592afe34741e7@mail.gmail.com> On 5/1/06, Don Y wrote: > Hi, > > Can anyone verify that this box (1976 vintage) also handles > 8080's? I'm *sure* I had an 8080 "personality module" for > mine but I can't seem to find it (nor the overlay or the > pod). > FWIW, these two uScope items are both pictured with 8080A probes. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8802128045 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227203002 From marvin at rain.org Mon May 1 19:31:14 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 17:31:14 -0700 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 Message-ID: <4456A852.90A07DD1@rain.org> I was just reading through the MSJ (May 1987) and it has an interesting article called "Evolution and History of MS-DOS" and some of it is quoted below. Does anyone know whatever happened to Tim Patterson? I never hear his name mentioned, and am just curious. >From that article: ********* January 1975: MITS introduces the $400 Altair computer; it has no keyboard, no monitor, no disk, and no operating system. February 1975: Paul Allen and Bill Gates develop and sell their own verion of BASIC to MITS for the Altair: February 1976: Paul Allen, now working for MITS, asks Bill Gates to write a disk-based version of BASIC for the Altair. Bill Gates creates a working model of his disk BASIC in 10 days. He designs a disk layout and file structure based on a centralized File Directory and File Allocation Table (FAT). He also includes a rudimentary set of file services in the disk BASIC he is developing. 1976-1978: Microsoft Disk BASIC is ported to all jmajor 8 bit personal computers. An assembler and linker are developed for 8080 and Z80 based systems. April 1978: Intel announces the 8086, a 16 bit processor. January 1979: Tim Paterson of Seattle Computer Products begins work on a plug-in 8086 processor card to bring the power of the 8086 to the S-100 bus. June 1979: Microsoft and Tim Patterson show Microsoft's BASIC running on Paterson's 8086 card at the National Computer Conference in New York. April 1980: Delays hold up the delivery of CP/M 86. Tim Paterson decides to write his own "Quick and Dirty" OS, which becomes known as 86-DOS. He incorporates the FAT structure first designed byt Bill Gates for Disk-BASIC, and some features and techniques underlying MS-DOS. August 1980: IBM takes its first stept owards producing the IBM PC, planning to use readily availble, off-the-shelf 8 bit hardware. IBM visits Microsoft, asking if Microsoft can write a ROM-based BASIC for the computer IBM is develop9ing. Microsoft suggests that IBM consider the 16 bit architecture. IBM's "Project Chess" goes on to become the 8088 (8086 based) IBM PC. The first working version of 86-DOS runs on Tim Paterson's 8086 card. This is essentially the birth of what will become known as MS-DOS. September 1980: IBM asks Microsoft to provide COBOL, FORTRAN and PAscal for their personal computer. Microsoft suggests to IBM that an operating system would be necessary to develop the additional lnaguages. October 1980: Microsoft submits a proposal to IBM that includes MS-DOS. November 1980: The proposal is accepted by IBM. A prototype machine arrives at Microsoft and a small DOS team begins a concentrated period of work. February 1981: 86-DOS runs on the prototype for the first time. Over the next half year the OS is refined and becomes MS-DOS 1.0. August 1981:IBM introduces the IBM PC, and annoucnes three operating systems: MS-DOS, CP/M 86, and the P System. For several months, MS-DOS is the only OS available. It is also priced substantially lower than CP/M. ... ... June 1982: MS-DOS, Version 1.1 is announced, providing support for double-sided, eight sector diskettes on the IBM PC. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 1 20:27:17 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 18:27:17 -0700 Subject: uScope 820 In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90605011723j781783f3n470592afe34741e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4456986A.1080201@DakotaCom.Net> <1e1fc3e90605011723j781783f3n470592afe34741e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4456B575.2030809@DakotaCom.Net> Glen Slick wrote: > On 5/1/06, Don Y wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Can anyone verify that this box (1976 vintage) also handles >> 8080's? I'm *sure* I had an 8080 "personality module" for >> mine but I can't seem to find it (nor the overlay or the >> pod). >> > > FWIW, these two uScope items are both pictured with 8080A probes. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8802128045 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227203002 Excellent! I must have another box hidden someplace with the other pod and the overlay in it. Thanks! --don From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon May 1 20:35:31 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 20:35:31 -0500 Subject: LA50 alignment problems Message-ID: Okay, I'm hoping someone who knows a little more about dot matrix printers than I can shed some light on this issue: I have a LA50 printer that has a problem where when it prints, it shifts the text about half a character too far to the right on the left-to-right pass, and the same on the right-to-left pass. I tried adjusting the "align" trimmer, but that didn't help. Has anyone else seen this problem on an LA50, and is there a workable solution to the problem? Thanks Julian From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon May 1 22:35:53 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 22:35:53 -0500 Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 01 May 2006 20:02:02 -0400. <003f01c66d7b$a4ba0fe0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20060502023711.SDAP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> I think it really depends on your goals. Me: I am not interested in becoming a web designer, I'm not particularily artistic, and I'm an old school "command line" kinda guy who much prefers text files and direct commands over graphics and "point and click". So I don't place much emphasis on "eye candy". On the other hand, I really didn't like the idea of all this interesting equipment and related information/resources sitting in my basement being of no benefit to anyone except me ... So, I put together a web site to share it, however from a "web" point of view, it is very primitive ... Very simple hand-written HTML - none of the fancy stuff (which wouldn't work on my browser anyway!) Most people like it - I have received some criticizm because of it's simplicity, however it meets my goals of making a lot of the information that I have collected available to others without my having to spend an inordinate amount of time on it. For "management", I do it the same way I manage my desktop computer - I organize the information into a directory tree where related material is grouped together. This way, no single part of it is all that complex, and navagation beween connected topics is relatively straightforward - It's nowhere near perfect or optimal, however it works. Judging from the amount of correspondance I get about it, and the number of other references to it that I see go by in various forums, it appears that it is reaching some people and being found to be useful. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon May 1 21:49:57 2006 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 19:49:57 -0700 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 References: <200605020130.k421UEP1039928@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000c01c66d93$20769420$0300a8c0@downstairs2> > From: Marvin Johnston > Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 > > I was just reading through the MSJ (May 1987) and it has an interesting > article > called "Evolution and History of MS-DOS" and some of it is quoted below. > Does > anyone know whatever happened to Tim Patterson? I never hear his name > mentioned, > and am just curious. Tim has a web site with more information on MS-DOS http://www.patersontech.com/ Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholey From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 1 21:55:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 19:55:43 -0700 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <4456A852.90A07DD1@rain.org> References: <4456A852.90A07DD1@rain.org> Message-ID: <200605011955430463.BB48B177@10.0.0.252> You know, that writeup makes it sound as if Gates invented the linked list for disk storage allocation. He didn't--it was in use many years before he "thought" of it--and he didn't invent BASIC either... Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 1 23:37:35 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:37:35 +1200 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: References: <44559B83.8070209@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 5/2/06, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Even more confusion was added by DEC when they created the 5.25" tall > "System unit" standard - i.e. any 5.25" high box like a BA23 etc. That really confused me when I started fiddling with stuff outside the DEC world. Prior to 1995, 100% of my rack experience was with DEC equipment (stuff stretching from 1964 up to about 1990). It's kinda handy only dealing with multiples of 5.25". Makes it easy to configure systems. -ethan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue May 2 01:15:15 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 07:15:15 +0100 Subject: Prime computer In-Reply-To: <26c11a640604301603m78a182a8r21c59d24bf414070@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640604301603m78a182a8r21c59d24bf414070@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4456F8F3.3040503@gjcp.net> Dan Williams wrote: > I won the prime computer, I paid more then I really wanted, but there > you go. I was expecting it to go out of my reach though. > I will pick it up sometime this week. Watch this space for info... Congratulations! It wasn't exactly cheap, was it? But then I suppose there is the rarity value. I'm glad it's going to a good home. Gordon. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 2 01:21:07 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 08:21:07 +0200 Subject: uScope 820 Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816EA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Wow, $500 and $700 for that thing? I have one at home with the documentation, and I am sure never going to use it. Guess putting it on eBay will make some money to finance the PDP-11 stuff which is far more interesting than Intel *&@#~$% I will check bitsavers if the doc is available, else I will scan that first. - Henk. > On 5/1/06, Don Y wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Can anyone verify that this box (1976 vintage) also handles > 8080's? > > I'm *sure* I had an 8080 "personality module" for mine but I can't > > seem to find it (nor the overlay or the pod). > > > > FWIW, these two uScope items are both pictured with 8080A probes. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8802128045 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227203002 > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From nico at farumdata.dk Tue May 2 01:40:29 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 08:40:29 +0200 Subject: 19" Rack History References: <200605011736.NAA04417@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <004201c66db3$4d97b7c0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "der Mouse" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: Re: 19" Rack History >> When I was in the Army (Signal Corps), they told us the 19" standard >> was from Germany, during WWI. It was actually .5 meters and used on >> all their early military electronics. >This seems unlikely to me. 19" differs from .5 metres by nearly 1? cm >(19*2.54=48.26), and that's a lot for rackmount equipment widths. Not to speak of the German obsession* with precisement (* is not meant in a negative way) Nico From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 2 01:40:47 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 01:40:47 -0500 Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4456FEEF.4000401@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > If noone is using a content management system that they like and would > care to recommend, that's fine, but I thought I'd ask first. I'm using plone (www.plone.org) for some work projects and it's worked really well. It's overkill for a single site, so I use the basic Zope (www.zope.org, what Plone is built on top of) for www.oldskool.org and it's worked for me for nearly a decade. I built some simple objects that inherit some simple code from parent objects, so all I have to do to add new pages to the site is create a new object and it inherits the header, footer, navigation tree, etc. from the parent objects. (Previously, for the same site, I used server-side includes that called perl scripts for things like displaying a fancy table from a flat-file textfile database, which also worked well for 2 years.) If you want something prototyped quickly and like jumping on the buzzwerd teknology bandwagon, try playing with Ruby On Rails. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 2 01:41:40 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 01:41:40 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <200605011955430463.BB48B177@10.0.0.252> References: <4456A852.90A07DD1@rain.org> <200605011955430463.BB48B177@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4456FF24.7060601@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You know, that writeup makes it sound as if Gates invented the linked list > for disk storage allocation. He didn't--it was in use many years before he > "thought" of it--and he didn't invent BASIC either... He certainly did invent various marketing and anti-trust practices, however... (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 2 01:45:26 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 01:45:26 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <4456A852.90A07DD1@rain.org> References: <4456A852.90A07DD1@rain.org> Message-ID: <44570006.1070609@oldskool.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > anyone know whatever happened to Tim Patterson? I never hear his name mentioned, He was hired by Microsoft sometime in the 1990s and worked well enough there that he left with enough money and stock to retire. I can't help but think that this was the result of a few influential people within the company feeling guilty for how his $50,000 sale was turned into 50 billion dollars... Of course, I feel bad for Gary Kildall's code getting ripped off too, but his wife kind-of dug that grave for him, IIRC. Anyway, last I heard of Tim, he was building robots and competing with them for one of those battling robots shows (in the US, not Robot Wars in the UK). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 2 10:12:07 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 10:12:07 Subject: uScope 820 Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060502101207.218f05fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:21 AM 5/2/06 +0200, Henk wrote: >Wow, $500 and $700 for that thing? I have one at home with >the documentation, and I am sure never going to use it. >Guess putting it on eBay will make some money to finance the >PDP-11 stuff which is far more interesting than Intel *&@#~$% >I will check bitsavers if the doc is available, else I will >scan that first. I wish you'd scan the docs. I have both a Z-80 and an 8080 unit that I'd love to try out (and then sell on E-bay for $700+ :-) Joe From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 2 09:22:04 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:22:04 +0200 Subject: uScope 820 Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816F2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> OK, I will scan the doc ... uhmmm need to check first *if* there is documentation though. I checked on bitsavers in the "Intel" directory, but did not find much resembling it. - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe R. > Sent: dinsdag 2 mei 2006 12:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: uScope 820 > > At 08:21 AM 5/2/06 +0200, Henk wrote: > >Wow, $500 and $700 for that thing? I have one at home with the > >documentation, and I am sure never going to use it. > >Guess putting it on eBay will make some money to finance the > >PDP-11 stuff which is far more interesting than Intel *&@#~$% I will > >check bitsavers if the doc is available, else I will scan that first. > > I wish you'd scan the docs. I have both a Z-80 and an 8080 > unit that I'd love to try out (and then sell on E-bay for $700+ :-) > > > Joe > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 2 09:23:57 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 07:23:57 -0700 Subject: uScope 820 In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816EA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: Hi The 499 one is on its second round, after not being sold for 499. It is not likely that the 700 one will get much either. It seems like I saw one of these get around 300 or so. Remember, these are just asking prices. These were designed to work with the 8080 but as I recall, they were also used with a few others, like the 8085. When I worked at Intel, I'd gotten a centronics printer wired for 220 50 cycle. I used the transformer from one of these to use to step down. I handled the 50 cycle with a gear change on the AC motor. Dwight >From: "Gooijen, Henk" >Wow, $500 and $700 for that thing? I have one at home with >the documentation, and I am sure never going to use it. >Guess putting it on eBay will make some money to finance the >PDP-11 stuff which is far more interesting than Intel *&@#~$% >I will check bitsavers if the doc is available, else I will >scan that first. > >- Henk. > > > > On 5/1/06, Don Y wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Can anyone verify that this box (1976 vintage) also handles > > 8080's? > > > I'm *sure* I had an 8080 "personality module" for mine but I can't > > > seem to find it (nor the overlay or the pod). > > > > > > > FWIW, these two uScope items are both pictured with 8080A probes. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8802128045 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227203002 > > > >This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the >addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or >otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. >If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for >delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified >that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is >strictly prohibited. >If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender >immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. >Thank you for your cooperation. > > > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 2 09:30:11 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:30:11 +0200 Subject: uScope 820 Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816F3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yup, I am not staring at $500 or $700 (way too much), and I am not counting to make big bucks here. I will have a good look at it this evening, scan the doc (if I have it) tomorrow and then put it up on eBay for, say $25 ...! - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: dinsdag 2 mei 2006 16:24 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: uScope 820 > > Hi > The 499 one is on its second round, after not being sold for 499. > It is not likely that the 700 one will get much either. It > seems like I saw one of these get around 300 or so. Remember, > these are just asking prices. > These were designed to work with the 8080 but as I recall, > they were also used with a few others, like the 8085. When I > worked at Intel, I'd gotten a centronics printer wired for > 220 50 cycle. I used the transformer from one of these to use > to step down. I handled the 50 cycle with a gear change on > the AC motor. > Dwight > > > >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > >Wow, $500 and $700 for that thing? I have one at home with the > >documentation, and I am sure never going to use it. > >Guess putting it on eBay will make some money to finance the > >PDP-11 stuff which is far more interesting than Intel *&@#~$% I will > >check bitsavers if the doc is available, else I will scan that first. > > > >- Henk. > > > > > > > On 5/1/06, Don Y wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Can anyone verify that this box (1976 vintage) also handles > > > 8080's? > > > > I'm *sure* I had an 8080 "personality module" for mine > but I can't > > > > seem to find it (nor the overlay or the pod). > > > > > > > > > > FWIW, these two uScope items are both pictured with 8080A probes. > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8802128045 > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227203002 > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 2 09:31:33 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 07:31:33 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816F2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: Hi It seems like this has been mentioned before but I just don't can't seem to find it. I put an older 360K drive in with my 1.44M. Things seem OK and I can use the 360K disk fine but I can't use the\ 1.44M while the 360K is connected. If I remove the 26 pin connector, the 1.44 works fine. What signal is most likely the problem from the old 360K that is stepping on the 1.44M? I'm using this setup to transfer images for my Olivetti M20 so it is somewhat on topic. Dwight From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue May 2 10:15:04 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:15:04 -0400 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC972E@cpexchange.olf.com> Not really going to help you, but I had several problems with floppy drives on my P4 machine and I finally decided to get one of those dual 3-1/2 and 5-1/4 inch drives on ebay (I believe it was from Epson). Solved all my problems...Now I can read all different types of PC formats on a modern peecee... Ram From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue May 2 10:33:39 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 08:33:39 -0700 Subject: uScope 820 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44577BD3.1050601@DakotaCom.Net> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > The 499 one is on its second round, after not being sold for 499. > It is not likely that the 700 one will get much either. It seems like > I saw one of these get around 300 or so. Remember, these are > just asking prices. Yup. *Fantasy* prices! :> > These were designed to work with the 8080 but as I recall, they > were also used with a few others, like the 8085. When I worked Yes, the mylar (?) overlay on the "keypad" is replaced -- along with the pod (obviously) and the personality module (little more than a ROM pack). I'm not sure they can handle much other than the 8080 and 8085, though. > at Intel, I'd gotten a centronics printer wired for 220 50 cycle. I > used the transformer from one of these to use to step down. I > handled the 50 cycle with a gear change on the AC motor. > Dwight > > >> From: "Gooijen, Henk" > >> Wow, $500 and $700 for that thing? I have one at home with >> the documentation, and I am sure never going to use it. >> Guess putting it on eBay will make some money to finance the >> PDP-11 stuff which is far more interesting than Intel *&@#~$% >> I will check bitsavers if the doc is available, else I will >> scan that first. >> >> - Henk. >> >> >> > On 5/1/06, Don Y wrote: >> > > Hi, >> > > >> > > Can anyone verify that this box (1976 vintage) also handles >> > 8080's? >> > > I'm *sure* I had an 8080 "personality module" for mine but I can't >> > > seem to find it (nor the overlay or the pod). >> > > >> > >> > FWIW, these two uScope items are both pictured with 8080A probes. >> > >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8802128045 >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227203002 From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue May 2 10:36:48 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 08:36:48 -0700 Subject: uScope 820 In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816F3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816F3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <44577C90.7080302@DakotaCom.Net> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Yup, I am not staring at $500 or $700 (way too much), > and I am not counting to make big bucks here. > I will have a good look at it this evening, scan the > doc (if I have it) tomorrow and then put it up on > eBay for, say $25 ...! Dump the EPROMs before you sell it. Having a complete print set does little good if you don't also know what's in the ROMs! :-/ Let me know if you *don't* scan the manuals -- as I have a complete set (no doubt hiding wherever the *other* parts of this box are hiding!). I also have commented sources for the ROM set (at least the ROMs in *my* box... no idea how often the firmware was upgraded in these -- hence the suggestion to dump the ROMs before disposing of the box). > - Henk. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey >> Sent: dinsdag 2 mei 2006 16:24 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: RE: uScope 820 >> >> Hi >> The 499 one is on its second round, after not being sold for 499. >> It is not likely that the 700 one will get much either. It >> seems like I saw one of these get around 300 or so. Remember, >> these are just asking prices. >> These were designed to work with the 8080 but as I recall, >> they were also used with a few others, like the 8085. When I >> worked at Intel, I'd gotten a centronics printer wired for >> 220 50 cycle. I used the transformer from one of these to use >> to step down. I handled the 50 cycle with a gear change on >> the AC motor. >> Dwight >> >> >>> From: "Gooijen, Henk" >>> Wow, $500 and $700 for that thing? I have one at home with the >>> documentation, and I am sure never going to use it. >>> Guess putting it on eBay will make some money to finance the >>> PDP-11 stuff which is far more interesting than Intel *&@#~$% I will >>> check bitsavers if the doc is available, else I will scan that first. >>> >>> - Henk. >>> >>> >>>> On 5/1/06, Don Y wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Can anyone verify that this box (1976 vintage) also handles >>>> 8080's? >>>>> I'm *sure* I had an 8080 "personality module" for mine >> but I can't >>>>> seem to find it (nor the overlay or the pod). >>>>> >>>> FWIW, these two uScope items are both pictured with 8080A probes. >>>> >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8802128045 >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227203002 From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 2 11:30:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 09:30:33 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605020930330285.0013BDCA@10.0.0.252> Dwight, a little more information might be helpful. What machine are you putting the drives in? What kind of 360K drive (make and model)? And how do you define "doesn't work" for the 1.44M? Cheers, Chuck From m_thompson at ids.net Tue May 2 12:37:22 2006 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 13:37:22 -0400 Subject: Software archiving news from the Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060502133552.020d6e88@ids.net> So, when are you going to catalog and make TAP files of the collection of PDP10 tapes at CHM? At 03:46 PM 5/1/2006, you wrote: >Just wanted to mention that I've joined the staff of the Computer >History Museum as Software Curator. I can be reached at my bitsavers >address or my new address at the Museum. I'm hoping to expand the CHM >collection by becoming more proactive in trying to locate and archive >what early software still survives, which means trying to contact >people who might still have old media and listings, especially from >the seventies and earlier. > >http://www.computerhistory.org/about/staff/kossow/ Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue May 2 12:41:26 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:41:26 -0400 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <4456FF24.7060601@oldskool.org> References: <4456A852.90A07DD1@rain.org> <200605011955430463.BB48B177@10.0.0.252> <4456FF24.7060601@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200605021341.26729.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 02 May 2006 02:41 am, Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > You know, that writeup makes it sound as if Gates invented the linked > > list for disk storage allocation. He didn't--it was in use many years > > before he "thought" of it--and he didn't invent BASIC either... > > He certainly did invent various marketing and anti-trust practices, > however... (ducking) I guess it's not uncommon for a company being started up to include a lawyer somewhere in there, whether they consult with one or have one directly involved as a participant. OTOH, m$ is the only company I've ever heard of that had _two_ lawyers in there right from the start. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 2 12:46:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 11:46:58 -0600 Subject: Software archiving news from the Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 May 2006 13:37:22 -0400. <7.0.1.0.0.20060502133552.020d6e88@ids.net> Message-ID: In article <7.0.1.0.0.20060502133552.020d6e88 at ids.net>, Michael Thompson writes: > So, when are you going to catalog and make TAP files of the > collection of PDP10 tapes at CHM? "Real Soon Now"? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue May 2 12:44:56 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:44:56 -0400 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605021344.56398.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 02 May 2006 10:31 am, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > It seems like this has been mentioned before but I just don't can't seem to > find it. I put an older 360K drive in with my 1.44M. Things seem OK and I > can use the 360K disk fine but I can't use the 1.44M while the 360K is > connected. If I remove the 26 pin connector, the 1.44 works fine. What > signal is most likely the problem from the old 360K that is stepping on the > 1.44M? I think it's perhaps got something to do with that "disk change" line, which was not implemented on a lot of the earlier 360K drives. If they didn't use it they may have it grounded or something. I also seem to remember some adapters that were to convert card edge to pins (or the other way around) that had a jumper for this, and could maybe even dig one up here if you want... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 2 13:07:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:07:07 -0600 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 May 2006 13:41:26 -0400. <200605021341.26729.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200605021341.26729.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > I guess it's not uncommon for a company being started up to include a lawyer > somewhere in there, whether they consult with one or have one directly > involved as a participant. OTOH, m$ is the only company I've ever heard of > that had _two_ lawyers in there right from the start. If I was a dinky company that was about to sign a potentially very lucrative deal with IBM, I think I'd have two lawyers as well. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 2 13:14:28 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 20:14:28 +0200 Subject: uScope 820 References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816F3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <44577C90.7080302@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20117@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Don, Joe, I checked what I have ... the unit has the personality module for the 8080 *and* the 8085 interface, and those two interfaces are also present. However, a simple straight flat cable is missing, I don't see that as a major issue. I will dump the EPROMs, and scan the operator's manual. BTW, if you are interested in a few more pictures, the eBay item number is 8805432722. That's all I want to say about this unit on CC. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Don Y Verzonden: di 02-05-2006 17:36 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: uScope 820 Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Yup, I am not staring at $500 or $700 (way too much), > and I am not counting to make big bucks here. > I will have a good look at it this evening, scan the > doc (if I have it) tomorrow and then put it up on > eBay for, say $25 ...! Dump the EPROMs before you sell it. Having a complete print set does little good if you don't also know what's in the ROMs! :-/ Let me know if you *don't* scan the manuals -- as I have a complete set (no doubt hiding wherever the *other* parts of this box are hiding!). I also have commented sources for the ROM set (at least the ROMs in *my* box... no idea how often the firmware was upgraded in these -- hence the suggestion to dump the ROMs before disposing of the box). > - Henk. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey >> Sent: dinsdag 2 mei 2006 16:24 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: RE: uScope 820 >> >> Hi >> The 499 one is on its second round, after not being sold for 499. >> It is not likely that the 700 one will get much either. It >> seems like I saw one of these get around 300 or so. Remember, >> these are just asking prices. >> These were designed to work with the 8080 but as I recall, >> they were also used with a few others, like the 8085. When I >> worked at Intel, I'd gotten a centronics printer wired for >> 220 50 cycle. I used the transformer from one of these to use >> to step down. I handled the 50 cycle with a gear change on >> the AC motor. >> Dwight >> >> >>> From: "Gooijen, Henk" >>> Wow, $500 and $700 for that thing? I have one at home with the >>> documentation, and I am sure never going to use it. >>> Guess putting it on eBay will make some money to finance the >>> PDP-11 stuff which is far more interesting than Intel *&@#~$% I will >>> check bitsavers if the doc is available, else I will scan that first. >>> >>> - Henk. >>> >>> >>>> On 5/1/06, Don Y wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Can anyone verify that this box (1976 vintage) also handles >>>> 8080's? >>>>> I'm *sure* I had an 8080 "personality module" for mine >> but I can't >>>>> seem to find it (nor the overlay or the pod). >>>>> >>>> FWIW, these two uScope items are both pictured with 8080A probes. >>>> >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8802128045 >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227203002 This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue May 2 13:26:18 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 11:26:18 -0700 Subject: uScope 820 In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20117@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816F3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <44577C90.7080302@DakotaCom.Net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20117@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <4457A44A.5030701@DakotaCom.Net> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Hi Don, Joe, > I checked what I have ... the unit has the personality module for the > 8080 *and* the 8085 interface, and those two interfaces are also present. > However, a simple straight flat cable is missing, I don't see that as a > major issue. I will dump the EPROMs, and scan the operator's manual. > BTW, if you are interested in a few more pictures, the eBay item number > is 8805432722. That's all I want to say about this unit on CC. Good luck in your sale! --don From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 2 13:26:07 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:26:07 -0400 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 References: Message-ID: <004501c66e15$e1b80560$8c5c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 2:07 PM Subject: Re: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 > > In article <200605021341.26729.rtellason at blazenet.net>, > "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > > I guess it's not uncommon for a company being started up to include a lawyer > > somewhere in there, whether they consult with one or have one directly > > involved as a participant. OTOH, m$ is the only company I've ever heard of > > that had _two_ lawyers in there right from the start. > > If I was a dinky company that was about to sign a potentially very > lucrative deal with IBM, I think I'd have two lawyers as well. > -- > Anytime a very small company signs a deal with a very large company you have to make sure there is not a single word that will allow the larger company to screw you out of business. For the most part Gates seems to get the better end of deals, and can see an angle he can exploit. The reason MS is where it is today is because of making consistently good deals that benefit MS. You can argue that MS might have bent some arms once it locked up the market, but most companies do that if/when they can. Being smart enough to amass a $250B+ company when software is your main product is a big accomplishment, most of the largest companies tend to be makers of hardware. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 2 13:32:02 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 11:32:02 -0700 Subject: Software archiving news from the Computer History Museum Message-ID: > So, when are you going to catalog and make TAP files of the > collection of PDP10 tapes at CHM? It's on the "to do" list for the coming year. My goals for the first year include reading The LGC collection and CHM's DECtapes. From spc at conman.org Tue May 2 13:22:28 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 01, 2006 06:09:41 PM Message-ID: <20060502182228.D3FA573029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated: > > > In article <003f01c66d7b$a4ba0fe0$21fe54a6 at ibm23xhr06>, > "John Allain" writes: > > > How I used to publish simple databases. > > Yeah, but what's evolving on my web space is no longer just a simple > inventory list. I want to include interpretive histories, links to > online documentation and software, hardware serial numbers, photos, > etc. Its becoming a big pile of metadata and although I can still > manage it manually, I can also see that this will no longer be the > case in a little while. > > There was a similar "do it yourself" set of advice when it came to > cataloging my books, but instead was the > perfect answer to my problems. I don't want to write my own PHP/MySQL > collection/database management system. (Hell, if I didn't want to be > a database monkey in 1978 when learning RSTS/E on the PDP-11/70, I > sure as hell don't want to be a database monkey in 2006!) > > If noone is using a content management system that they like and would > care to recommend, that's fine, but I thought I'd ask first. I converted my website [1] from hand crafted HTML pages to XML, then use XSLT to convert it to HTML. A typical fragment would look like: The title of the page March 3, 2000 sample, keywords, example A sample page that to show the structure I use

Some verbiage in HTML format about the page.

The actual contents of the page, in HTML.

 Another fragment (an actual fragment from my photo gallery which generates http://www.conman.org/people/spc/photos/top10/car.html): A Long Lost Chevy Nova Vroom vroom car, junk yard “A moving car gathers no moss.” Junk Yard, Powerline Rd south of Copans, Pompano, Florida, United States 1991

Okay, so it's technically not moss on the car, but this picture does get several comments, mostly “How did you do that?” and “That's not real, is it?” Yes, it is real. And that is the real picture; it hasn't been doctored at all.

So, how did I get that picture? Well, I went with my friend Greg to a local junk yard and happened to have my camera along. This car was perched up on a rack, covered in ivy.

 The XSLT files not only convert everything to HTML, but also generate all the navigation links as well. For the XML file, I just created whatever tags I needed so I can include as much meta data as I want within each segment. Writing the XSLT was a bitch, but now that I have that done, I don't have to worry about it (and the "look" of the site is provided by CSS anyway). Adding new contents is quite easy now. -spc (Once the HTML files are generated, I then use rsync to upload only thost pages that actually changed to the server) [1] http://www.conman.org/people/spc/ From drb at msu.edu Tue May 2 13:59:02 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 14:59:02 -0400 Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 02 May 2006 14:22:28 EDT.) <20060502182228.D3FA573029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060502182228.D3FA573029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <200605021859.k42Ix23w006505@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > There was a similar "do it yourself" set of advice when it came to > cataloging my books, but instead was the > perfect answer to my problems. I don't want to write my own PHP/MySQL > collection/database management system. (Hell, if I didn't want to be > a database monkey in 1978 when learning RSTS/E on the PDP-11/70, I > sure as hell don't want to be a database monkey in 2006!) > > If noone is using a content management system that they like and would > care to recommend, that's fine, but I thought I'd ask first. It sounds like the Encoded Archival Description (EAD) record format might be useful to you. There are some tools which deal with it, though they may be more than you want to tackle. Dspace, for example, is a fairly complex system, but can probably do what you want. Then you're not writing (much) code, and you're all standardized. De From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 2 14:10:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 13:10:59 -0600 Subject: Software archiving news from the Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 May 2006 11:32:02 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > > So, when are you going to catalog and make TAP files of the > > collection of PDP10 tapes at CHM? > > It's on the "to do" list for the coming year. My goals for the > first year include reading The LGC collection and CHM's DECtapes. Will you be posting the progress to a blog? :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 2 14:17:18 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:17:18 -0700 Subject: Software archiving news from the Computer History Museum Message-ID: > Will you be posting the progress to a blog? :) It really does seem like there needs to be something. CHM is pretty opaque from the outside (having been a volunteer for over five years). I really like like Paul McJones' "Dusty Decks" site and may use that as a model. http://www.mcjones.org/dustydecks/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 2 14:21:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 13:21:30 -0600 Subject: collection management system for web? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 May 2006 14:59:02 -0400. <200605021859.k42Ix23w006505@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <200605021859.k42Ix23w006505 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > It sounds like the Encoded Archival Description (EAD) record format > might be useful to you. [...] Thanks, that looks very useful indeed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 2 14:26:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:26:20 -0700 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <004501c66e15$e1b80560$8c5c1941@game> References: <004501c66e15$e1b80560$8c5c1941@game> Message-ID: <200605021226200821.00B4AF1A@10.0.0.252> On 5/2/2006 at 2:26 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >> If I was a dinky company that was about to sign a potentially very >> lucrative deal with IBM, I think I'd have two lawyers as well. ...and William Gates Sr. is a partner in Vogel & Gates--so Billy had some high-powered talent in the family. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 2 14:33:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:33:16 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <200605021344.56398.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605021344.56398.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200605021233160970.00BB08AF@10.0.0.252> On 5/2/2006 at 1:44 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I think it's perhaps got something to do with that "disk change" line, >which was not implemented on a lot of the earlier 360K drives. If they didn't >use it they may have it grounded or something. I also seem to remember some >adapters that were to convert card edge to pins (or the other way around) >that had a jumper for this, and could maybe even dig one up here if you >want... Pin 34 was often used as a "Ready" line on earlier 360K (well, 48 tpi 5.25" drives), but it was gated off of drive select, so it shouldn't matter. A bit of cello tape over the edge connector pin should confirm that. I'd wonder more about the vintage of the 5.25" drive, some of which used 150 ohm pullups on input lines. This may require a bit too much drive current from a modern CMOS floppy interface. When I got a Catweasel I, I found that it had problems with some old 5.25' drives. I simply wired up a buffer with some 74LS07s and LS14s, which cleared the problem up. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 2 14:35:02 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060502123346.W24016@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 May 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > OK and I can use the 360K disk fine but I can't use the\ > 1.44M while the 360K is connected. If I remove the > 26 pin connector, the 1.44 works fine. ^^ ????? Do you mean 34? > What signal is most likely the problem from the old > 360K that is stepping on the 1.44M? straight or twisted cable? termination? > I'm using this setup to transfer images for my Olivetti > M20 so it is somewhat on topic. From mmaginnis at gmail.com Tue May 2 14:36:49 2006 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:36:49 -0600 Subject: Ping: Steve Phipps Message-ID: Steve, My messages to your cableone.net address are bouncing: Technical details of permanent failure: PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 9): 550 relaying blocked, read new mail, add 64.233.166.182 to forwarding or enable smtp authentication in... - Mike From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 2 14:33:50 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 20:33:50 +0100 Subject: Software archiving news from the Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4457B41E.1080806@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: >> Will you be posting the progress to a blog? :) > > > It really does seem like there needs to be something. CHM > is pretty opaque from the outside (having been a volunteer > for over five years). It's a common failing with museums, unfortunately - and always has been, it would seem (even before the advent of the 'net). I'm not sure why. From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 2 14:55:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 13:55:16 -0600 Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History Message-ID: Is anyone here a subscriber? Would you recommend it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From evan at snarc.net Tue May 2 14:59:53 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:59:53 -0400 Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004701c66e22$fa941530$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Absolutely. -----Original Message----- From: Richard [mailto:legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 3:55 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History Is anyone here a subscriber? Would you recommend it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 2 15:00:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 14:00:50 -0600 Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 May 2006 13:55:16 -0600. Message-ID: Also -- does the ACM have a SIG devoted to computer history or preservation? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 2 15:22:38 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 15:22:38 -0500 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC972E@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC972E@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <4457BF8E.4040401@oldskool.org> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Not really going to help you, but I had several problems with floppy > drives on my P4 machine and I finally decided to get one of those dual > 3-1/2 and 5-1/4 inch drives on ebay (I believe it was from Epson). > Solved all my problems...Now I can read all different types of PC > formats on a modern peecee... Last I checked, these were someone uncommon, even for ebay. Did you pay out the teeth for it? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 2 16:07:39 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 16:07:39 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC972E@cpexchange.olf.co m> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060502160739.11af337a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Ram, I have a couple of those too and they do work great. However I got mine surplus and haven't taken the time to figure out the jumpers setting. Do you know what they are? Joe At 11:15 AM 5/2/06 -0400, you wrote: >Not really going to help you, but I had several problems with floppy >drives on my P4 machine and I finally decided to get one of those dual >3-1/2 and 5-1/4 inch drives on ebay (I believe it was from Epson). >Solved all my problems...Now I can read all different types of PC >formats on a modern peecee... > >Ram > From evan at snarc.net Tue May 2 15:33:39 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:33:39 -0400 Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004c01c66e27$b291b030$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I believe they do some history work in http://www.acm.org/sigs/sigcomm/ ... There's also SIGCIS within the Society for the History of Technology. What's your spontaneous interest in this? -----Original Message----- From: Richard [mailto:legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 4:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IEEE Annals of Computer History Also -- does the ACM have a SIG devoted to computer history or preservation? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue May 2 15:36:05 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:36:05 -0400 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC9785@cpexchange.olf.com> Nope. I paid about $10 for it and I am really happy with it. My computer can only support one floppy drive and it still works like a champ! I don't think I can read both floppy drives at the same time though, but who cares. I can now read all those old disks I have and on a modern PC nonetheless. Ram From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 2 15:36:23 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:36:23 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <4457BF8E.4040401@oldskool.org> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC972E@cpexchange.olf.com> <4457BF8E.4040401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90605021336r2f445cc1g636a3bf6d697cbab@mail.gmail.com> On 5/2/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > Last I checked, these were someone uncommon, even for ebay. Did you pay > out the teeth for it? How much do teeth cost? A quick check looks like a TEAC FD-505 goes for about $10 - $15. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8805077325 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6871942844 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8794665290 From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue May 2 15:37:10 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:37:10 -0400 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC9786@cpexchange.olf.com> I downloaded the docs a while back from a website (might actually be epson's). I'll see if I can find it... Ram From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue May 2 16:05:04 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need help with Heathkit H89 - loose wire! Message-ID: <20060502210504.35607.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, I just received a nice Heathkit H89. Great condition, but there's a loose wire on the 16K memory board (one end isn't plugged in anywhere). Hopefully, this is the reason it won't boot. Please check your systems/manuals and let me know where it's supposed to go. It's circled in yellow on this pic: http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/wire.jpg Thanks! Steve. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue May 2 17:12:21 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060502221221.39942.qmail@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > Is anyone here a subscriber? Would you recommend > it? Definitely. I am an ACM member, and joined the IEEE Computer Society as an affiliate for the express purpose of subscribing to the Annals. The archives back to day 1 are all available online when you have a print subscription. --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 2 16:12:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 14:12:44 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <4457BF8E.4040401@oldskool.org> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC972E@cpexchange.olf.com> <4457BF8E.4040401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200605021412440811.011617FA@10.0.0.252> On 5/2/2006 at 3:22 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Last I checked, these were someone uncommon, even for ebay. Did you pay >out the teeth for it? I'm still working on what's left of a carton of the Teac 505's. I'd modified several for a customer so that the 5.25" drive would spin at 300 RPM (it's a long story). In general, these are probably okay for occasional use, but there were corners cut on the quarter-height 5.25" section that renders them somewhat less than robust. If you've got room, a half-height 5.25" will probably give you better service. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 2 17:35:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 16:35:08 -0600 Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 May 2006 16:33:39 -0400. <004c01c66e27$b291b030$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <004c01c66e27$b291b030$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "Evan Koblentz" writes: > I believe they do some history work in http://www.acm.org/sigs/sigcomm/ ... > There's also SIGCIS within the Society for the History of Technology. I don't find any official page on ACM's site for SIGCIS. Is it now called "Computers and Society" SIGCAS? > What's your spontaneous interest in this? I've been a member of ACM since '88. My IEEE membership lapsed (shame on me) several years ago and I need to renew. My ACM membership is also up for renewal. I figured while I'm renewing, I might add some SIG memberships that are relevant to my obsession^Whobby :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue May 2 19:49:17 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 19:49:17 -0500 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <200605020930330285.0013BDCA@10.0.0.252> References: <200605020930330285.0013BDCA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4457FE0D.6030004@brutman.com> Termination? Floppy drives have termination rules ... From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 2 20:40:07 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 18:40:07 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <200605021412440811.011617FA@10.0.0.252> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC972E@cpexchange.olf.com> <4457BF8E.4040401@oldskool.org> <200605021412440811.011617FA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <445809F7.5080402@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/2/2006 at 3:22 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >>Last I checked, these were someone uncommon, even for ebay. Did you pay >>out the teeth for it? > > > I'm still working on what's left of a carton of the Teac 505's. I'd > modified several for a customer so that the 5.25" drive would spin at 300 > RPM (it's a long story). In general, these are probably okay for > occasional use, but there were corners cut on the quarter-height 5.25" > section that renders them somewhat less than robust. If you've got room, a > half-height 5.25" will probably give you better service. I've had good luck with the Epson combos - the 700 series I think. I'm 1500 miles from home, so I can't check the model. I have one in my Linux box that's seen heavy use for about 4-5 years. It's damn slow on the 3.5" side, compared to a regular 3.5" drive, but other than that it's worked a treat. From geneb at simpits.com Tue May 2 21:52:58 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 19:52:58 -0700 Subject: Freebie Message-ID: <44581B0A.70901@simpits.com> I've got a 3Com Etherlink III manual if anyone wants it. Covers: 3C509, 3C509-TP, 3C509-COMBO, 3C579 and 3C579-TP E-mail me off list if you're interested. g. From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue May 2 22:15:30 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 23:15:30 -0400 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605022315.30265.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 02 May 2006 02:07 pm, Richard wrote: > In article <200605021341.26729.rtellason at blazenet.net>, > > "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > I guess it's not uncommon for a company being started up to include a > > lawyer somewhere in there, whether they consult with one or have one > > directly involved as a participant. OTOH, m$ is the only company I've > > ever heard of that had _two_ lawyers in there right from the start. > > If I was a dinky company that was about to sign a potentially very > lucrative deal with IBM, I think I'd have two lawyers as well. Sure, but that's not the context I was talking about, which no doubt came about somewhat later on, I'm talking about when they started the company in the first place. Or at least that's my recollection, anyhow, which could perhaps be at fault here. I did have several books that covered that time period and some other stuff, but loaned them out to my brother after I read them and haven't gotten them all back yet. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From geneb at simpits.com Tue May 2 22:21:34 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 20:21:34 -0700 Subject: Another freebie... Message-ID: <445821BE.2040001@simpits.com> A manual from Microdata Training and Product Support titled: Reality 8000 PEP Series Introductory Manual. It's in fair shape, 48 pages and punched for a 3 ring binder. E-Mail me off list if you'd like this. g. From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue May 2 22:17:33 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 23:17:33 -0400 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <200605021233160970.00BB08AF@10.0.0.252> References: <200605021344.56398.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605021233160970.00BB08AF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605022317.33648.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 02 May 2006 03:33 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd wonder more about the vintage of the 5.25" drive, some of which used 150 > ohm pullups on input lines. This may require a bit too much drive current > from a modern CMOS floppy interface. When I got a Catweasel I, I found > that it had problems with some old 5.25' drives. I simply wired up a > buffer with some 74LS07s and LS14s, which cleared the problem up. That's a good point, and one that I hadn't considered. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 2 23:02:31 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 23:02:31 -0500 Subject: FA: ATT 3B2/310 Message-ID: <44582B57.8070405@jbrain.com> I know some of you all loathe eBay, so ignore if appropriate. For the rest, I've decided life is going too fast as it is, and this 3B2 is not getting high enough priority to stay here. So, to someone else it will go. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8805689078 Feel free to ask questions if needed. Jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 3 00:50:53 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 22:50:53 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <20060502123346.W24016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi Fred and all Yes, I meant 34. I've been fiddling with a laptop drive and it has the 26 pin z connector and that number stuck out in my head. Also, 34 was the answer. I put a piece of tape on pin 34 of the 360K drive and all seems well now. It seems like the 1.44M use that line for detecting the 720k disk while the 360K used it for disk change. I just couldn't recall what line was involved. For the rest, I checked it with and without termination. It is twisted cable and it was selected as ds1. Everything was correct and the boot procedure execised the head steps fine for both drive. It just errored on the 1.44M when I tried to access it. The 360K worked fine. The 1.44M would work as soon as I'd disconnect the edge connector from the 360K ( I did this hot but it is only signal wires so I don't think it could hurt anything ). Interesting problem for future reference. Thanks Dwight >From: Fred Cisin > >On Tue, 2 May 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > > OK and I can use the 360K disk fine but I can't use the\ > > 1.44M while the 360K is connected. If I remove the > > 26 pin connector, the 1.44 works fine. > ^^ ????? Do you mean 34? > > > What signal is most likely the problem from the old > > 360K that is stepping on the 1.44M? > >straight or twisted cable? termination? > > > I'm using this setup to transfer images for my Olivetti > > M20 so it is somewhat on topic. > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 3 00:53:46 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 22:53:46 -0700 Subject: to the fellow looking for 1771 controller In-Reply-To: <4457FE0D.6030004@brutman.com> Message-ID: Hi I was just looking through the list of stuff that Anchor Electronics, here in Santa Clara, Ca, has and saw they list 1771-1 for about $5 ea. They have on-line ordering as I recall. Hope this helps Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 3 01:02:18 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 23:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060502225742.O50591@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 May 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Fred and all > Yes, I meant 34. I've been fiddling with a laptop drive > and it has the 26 pin z connector and that number stuck > out in my head. > Also, 34 was the answer. I put a piece of tape on pin > 34 of the 360K drive and all seems well now. It seems > like the 1.44M use that line for detecting the 720k > disk while the 360K used it for disk change. I just > couldn't recall what line was involved. You MIGHT now have a 360K that does not notice when you change diskettes! Be careful IF you get a situation where that drive shows you the previous DIR, instead of the current one after changing diskettes, don't write until the OS knows it. ^C (Ctrl +C) will tell DOS that the disk has been changed. It's documented in CP/M, and undocumented in MS-DOS. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 3 01:17:22 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 23:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <20060502225742.O50591@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060502225742.O50591@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060502231552.U50591@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 May 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > Also, 34 was the answer. I put a piece of tape on pin > 34 of the 360K drive and all seems well now. It seems > like the 1.44M use that line for detecting the 720k > disk while the 360K used it for disk change. I just > couldn't recall what line was involved. not quite "detecting"; "ready" From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 3 01:20:15 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 23:20:15 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <20060502225742.O50591@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi Again This is true that the disk change could be an issue but it won't be an issue for me. I don't use it for DOS disk and use my own software to talk directly to the controller and DMA. Like I said, I use it to transfer images of disk for my M20 ( uses PCOS ). I've seen mention of using control-c or control-break to get DOS to reread the directories rather than use the image it read in memory. I did some more searching today and found a good source of various bits and pieces about drives but I left the piece of paper with the page at work. I'll post it tomorrow. It talked about the disk change line but it didn't connect in my head until I read the other mail that it might be this line that conflicts with the 1.44M drive. Thanks Dwight >From: Fred Cisin > >On Tue, 2 May 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Fred and all > > Yes, I meant 34. I've been fiddling with a laptop drive > > and it has the 26 pin z connector and that number stuck > > out in my head. > > Also, 34 was the answer. I put a piece of tape on pin > > 34 of the 360K drive and all seems well now. It seems > > like the 1.44M use that line for detecting the 720k > > disk while the 360K used it for disk change. I just > > couldn't recall what line was involved. > >You MIGHT now have a 360K that does not notice when you change diskettes! >Be careful >IF you get a situation where that drive shows you the previous DIR, >instead of the current one after changing diskettes, don't write >until the OS knows it. >^C (Ctrl +C) will tell DOS that the disk has been changed. >It's documented in CP/M, and undocumented in MS-DOS. > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 3 01:23:35 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 23:23:35 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <20060502231552.U50591@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin > >On Tue, 2 May 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > > Also, 34 was the answer. I put a piece of tape on pin > > 34 of the 360K drive and all seems well now. It seems > > like the 1.44M use that line for detecting the 720k > > disk while the 360K used it for disk change. I just > > couldn't recall what line was involved. > >not quite "detecting"; "ready" > > Thanks for the correction. I was thinking it was something else. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 3 01:29:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 23:29:36 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <20060502225742.O50591@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060502225742.O50591@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200605022329360377.0313E4B1@10.0.0.252> On 5/2/2006 at 11:02 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >You MIGHT now have a 360K that does not notice when you change diskettes! >Be careful. IF you get a situation where that drive shows you the previous DIR, >instead of the current one after changing diskettes, don't write >until the OS knows it. >^C (Ctrl +C) will tell DOS that the disk has been changed. >It's documented in CP/M, and undocumented in MS-DOS. "Disk Changed" was pretty uncommon on 360K drives. More likely, it's "READY" on pin 34. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 3 01:35:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 23:35:32 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <445809F7.5080402@mdrconsult.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701BC972E@cpexchange.olf.com> <4457BF8E.4040401@oldskool.org> <200605021412440811.011617FA@10.0.0.252> <445809F7.5080402@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200605022335320493.031953B7@10.0.0.252> On 5/2/2006 at 6:40 PM Doc Shipley wrote: > I've had good luck with the Epson combos - the 700 series I think. >I'm 1500 miles from home, so I can't check the model. I've had a couple of the Epsons too, but either way, the clamping arrangement of a quarter-height 5.25" just isn't up to the same standards as the "Shugart Cone" style of clamping mechanism of a half-height drive. IIRC, Shugart sued some drive makers for violating their patent. I can recall having miserable problems with the early 5.25" Micropolis drives mangling the hub area on 5.25' diskettes. Cheers, Chuck From esharpe at uswest.net Wed May 3 04:19:52 2006 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 02:19:52 -0700 Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History References: Message-ID: <00e201c66e92$bd0834b0$eee7e444@SONYDIGITALED> probably one of the best sources of scholarly articles.. ed sharpe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 12:55 PM Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History > Is anyone here a subscriber? Would you recommend it? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 3 15:19:44 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 16:19:44 -0400 Subject: VCF/Midwest 2.0 Message-ID: <200605031619.44575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Thanks. :) BTW, the date is Sat, July 15th. I'll try to spend time putting together a better map, etc. Once you get the date fixed, I'll post an announcement to cctalk, unless you wanna do that. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 3 15:22:37 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 16:22:37 -0400 Subject: VCF/Midwest 2.0 In-Reply-To: <200605031619.44575.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605031619.44575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200605031622.37646.pat@computer-refuge.org> Grr. Please ignore the spurious bits. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed May 3 15:24:51 2006 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 16:24:51 -0400 Subject: VCF/Midwest 2.0 In-Reply-To: <200605031619.44575.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605031619.44575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1146687891.19962.28.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 16:19 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > BTW, the date is Sat, July 15th. woo hoo! I was hoping there'd be another one. Time to start scheduling work off. I assume it'll be at Purdue again? Brian From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 3 15:32:26 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 21:32:26 +0100 Subject: VCF/Midwest 2.0 In-Reply-To: <200605031619.44575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Er.... :o) On 3/5/06 21:19, "Patrick Finnegan" wrote: > Thanks. :) > > BTW, the date is Sat, July 15th. I'll try to spend time putting > together a better map, etc. > > Once you get the date fixed, I'll post an announcement to cctalk, unless > you wanna do that. > > Pat -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 3 15:37:42 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 16:37:42 -0400 Subject: VCF/Midwest 2.0 In-Reply-To: <1146687891.19962.28.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <200605031619.44575.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1146687891.19962.28.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <200605031637.42718.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 03 May 2006 16:24, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 16:19 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > BTW, the date is Sat, July 15th. > > woo hoo! I was hoping there'd be another one. Time to start > scheduling work off. > > I assume it'll be at Purdue again? Yeah. Details are becoming available here: http://www.vintage.org/2006/midwest/index.php I was hoping to wait until Sellam got the page up first before sending an announcement out, but I inadvertently sorta sent one out early. Anyways, if you're interested in being a speaker or exhibitor, go ahead and sign up. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 3 15:44:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 14:44:40 -0600 Subject: VCF/Mountain? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 May 2006 16:37:42 -0400. <200605031637.42718.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Is there an interest in a Vintage Computer Festival in the mountain time zone? I could make it happen concurrently with Pilgrimage on the weekend of Sept. 23rd if people are willing to get their gear together for it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed May 3 16:30:14 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 17:30:14 -0400 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605031730.14356.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 03 May 2006 01:50 am, dwight elvey wrote: > Also, 34 was the answer. I put a piece of tape on pin 34 of the 360K drive > and all seems well now. It seems like the 1.44M use that line for detecting > the 720k disk while the 360K used it for disk change. I just couldn't recall > what line was involved. Ah. My guess wasn't too far off, then. I just looked in one box of stuff here, and have these little adapters that were make for when the cable has card-edge type connectors but the drive has pin-type. Some of them are just adapters, but some also have a jumper on board to deal with that issue, and the one I just looked at is labeled "TEAC". (And if anybody needs any of these feel free to contact me offlist. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 2 20:35:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 02:35:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9817 Message-ID: A rather strange question : Was there ever an 68020 daughterboard for the HP9817 (aka HP9000/217)? The reason I ask is as follows. The HP9817 (I have one in bits on the bench at the moment) uses a 68010 processor. It's in a PGA pacakge, and is socketed. As the data sheet shows, it's a 10*10 PGA, with 2 rows of pins round the outside, and the 4 internal corner pins (a total of 68 pins). However the socket on the HP9817 board has all 100 contacts fitted. And some of the ones that don't correspond to pins on the 68010 have traces going to them. It appears these are extra intputs to the MMU circuit (in particular to the 'Tag RAM' for virtual memory paging). I am wondering, therefore, if the machine was designed to take a processor with more address lines brought out, the obvious candidate being the 68020. Of corse it would need a daughterboard to rearrange the pinout, but apart from that it may well drop straight in. -tony From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed May 3 16:32:29 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 17:32:29 -0400 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: <200605022329360377.0313E4B1@10.0.0.252> References: <20060502225742.O50591@shell.lmi.net> <200605022329360377.0313E4B1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605031732.29060.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 03 May 2006 02:29 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/2/2006 at 11:02 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > >You MIGHT now have a 360K that does not notice when you change diskettes! > >Be careful. IF you get a situation where that drive shows you the > > previous DIR, > > >instead of the current one after changing diskettes, don't write > >until the OS knows it. > >^C (Ctrl +C) will tell DOS that the disk has been changed. > >It's documented in CP/M, and undocumented in MS-DOS. > > "Disk Changed" was pretty uncommon on 360K drives. More likely, it's > "READY" on pin 34. I do have at least one pair of full-ht 5.25" drives that actually operate a microswitch which I'm assuming is connected to that pin... Most of them didn't, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cctalk at catcorner.org Wed May 3 17:20:15 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 18:20:15 -0400 Subject: to the fellow looking for 1771 controller Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360A6@MEOW.catcorner.org> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 1:54 AM > > Hi > I was just looking through the list of stuff that Anchor Electronics, > here in Santa Clara, Ca, has and saw they list 1771-1 for about $5 ea. > They have on-line ordering as I recall. > Hope this helps > Dwight > I ordered 3 today. BG Micro had them listed too. Kelly From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 3 18:04:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 17:04:07 -0600 Subject: More Tektronix GPIB docs online Message-ID: 4041 GPIB Programming Guide Sep 1983 (6 MB PDF) GPIB Programming Guide Oct 1981 (35 MB PDF) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From frustum at pacbell.net Wed May 3 21:08:29 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 21:08:29 -0500 Subject: kaypro 10 utility and bios source files online Message-ID: <4459621D.4070507@pacbell.net> I was poking around one of the two Kaypro 10s that I have. In one of the user spaces there were a number of source files with NLS copyright notices. I did a google search on a few of the names and didn't find any hits, so I uploaded the files to my PC and then put them online. They can be had here: http://www.thebattles.net/oddments/oddments.html From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Wed May 3 21:21:18 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:21:18 +1000 Subject: IMSAI on eBay References: <4459621D.4070507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <012301c66f21$7232e5e0$6500a8be@pentium> Not mine, but this might be of interest to a few of you. It's in Melbourne (AU) & has been very heavily modified by the looks.... http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8804809289 regs, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Classic machines, classic software // From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 22:07:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 20:07:16 -0700 Subject: IMSAI on eBay In-Reply-To: <012301c66f21$7232e5e0$6500a8be@pentium> References: <4459621D.4070507@pacbell.net> <012301c66f21$7232e5e0$6500a8be@pentium> Message-ID: At 12:21 PM +1000 5/4/06, Lance Lyon wrote: >Not mine, but this might be of interest to a few of you. It's in >Melbourne (AU) & has been very heavily modified by the looks.... > >http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8804809289 Is it just me, or has someone photoshopped a "Matrix Screensaver" onto that monitor? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 3 22:12:31 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060504031231.34086.qmail@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Is it just me, or has someone photoshopped a "Matrix > Screensaver" > onto that monitor? I'm guessing that's just what random memory looks like on the character-mapped VIO display, including attributes such as reverse video. --Bill From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed May 3 22:14:48 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 20:14:48 -0700 Subject: IMSAI on eBay In-Reply-To: <012301c66f21$7232e5e0$6500a8be@pentium> References: <4459621D.4070507@pacbell.net> <012301c66f21$7232e5e0$6500a8be@pentium> Message-ID: <445971A8.7090201@msm.umr.edu> Lance Lyon wrote: > Not mine, but this might be of interest to a few of you. I would like to get hold of the drivers for the vio card, and other unique SSM stuff he has. Jim From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed May 3 22:17:31 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 20:17:31 -0700 Subject: kaypro 10 utility and bios source files online In-Reply-To: <4459621D.4070507@pacbell.net> References: <4459621D.4070507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200605032017.31371.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 03 May 2006 19:08, Jim Battle wrote: > I was poking around one of the two Kaypro 10s that I have. In one of > the user spaces there were a number of source files with NLS copyright > notices. I did a google search on a few of the names and didn't find > any hits, so I uploaded the files to my PC and then put them online. > They can be had here: > > http://www.thebattles.net/oddments/oddments.html Thanks! Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bob at jfcl.com Wed May 3 22:24:19 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 20:24:19 -0700 Subject: Manual for Sigma RQD11/SCSI Controller? Message-ID: <000501c66f2a$3e5f4b60$0401010a@GIZMO> Does anybody have any docs for a Sigma RQD11/SCSI controller?? This is, I really really hope, a QBUS SCSI disk controller that speaks MSCP and emulates a RQDXn. BTW, does anybody know if this card can do TMSCP too, or just disks? Thanks, Bob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 3 23:17:39 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 21:17:39 -0700 Subject: Need help with Heathkit H89 - loose wire! In-Reply-To: <20060502210504.35607.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Steven Here is what Barry Watzman just sent me: ********************************************** >From the configuration guide (which I wrote): "A jumper is required between the center pin of JJ503 and Pin 17 of P509, or P4 of WH-88-16 (which connects to Pin 17 of P509)." On some models the jumper was factory installed by soldering on the back of the CPU board. Barry Watzman ********************************************** Also, you should joint the mail list sebhc. It speicalizes in H8, H89 and H/Z90 stiff. It does a little talking about Z100's and H11's but it is just talk. Hope this helps. I was a little late for the floppy controller. Dwight see: www.sebhc.org >From: steven stengel > >Hi, I just received a nice Heathkit H89. > >Great condition, but there's a loose wire on the 16K >memory board (one end isn't plugged in anywhere). > >Hopefully, this is the reason it won't boot. > >Please check your systems/manuals and let me know >where it's supposed to go. > >It's circled in yellow on this pic: >http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/wire.jpg > >Thanks! >Steve. > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu May 4 01:49:18 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 07:49:18 +0100 Subject: UK - laptops available Fwd: Very old `Laptop` - the original??? M20 Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060504073509.011502f0@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> see email below - May be of interest to anybody in the Manchester, UK, area.. Contact the author directly.. PLUS.. this reminds me.. I myself have a DEC Digital laptop available free to anybody who wants it. Model TS30G. Complete with docking station (port replicator, plus 10baseT/10base2 network adapter). Working EXCEPT battery dead, and the screen died last year and showed completely white image, at which point it's not been used since. (The VGA port drove a monitor ok so machine itself is fine, so may just be a connection issue. I don't know...) Collect from Salford (nr central Manchester). Email me for this one. Rob >To: ManchesterFreeCycle at yahoogroups.com >From: "msmsms13" >Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 21:17:52 -0000 >Subject: [ManchesterFreeCycle] OFFERED: Very old `Laptop` - the >original??? M20 > >On behalf of a friend - so very little info available! This is a very, >very old `Laptop` (I use this term loosely as the weight might bruise >you if left on your lap for long!!!) It is quite a chunky item with a >small screen - it seems to work when plugged in but it is not Windows >& not being PC minded I do not know if Windows could be installed or >if it is any use at all! Email for any more info & I will try to get a >picture. > > > > > > >~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ >QUICK GUIDE TO CORRECT SUBJECT LINE FORMAT: > >OFFERED: couch (partial postcode/area i.e. M30/Eccles) >TAKEN: couch (partial postcode/area i.e. M30/Eccles) >WANTED: garden hose (partial postcode/area i.e. M30/Worsley) >RECEIVED: garden hose (partial postcode/area i.e. M30/Worsley) > > >~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Freecycle and the Freecycle logo are trademarks of The Freecycle Network >in the United States and/or other countries. >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > ><*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManchesterFreeCycle/ > ><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > ManchesterFreeCycle-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.2/329 - Release Date: 02/05/2006 From esharpe at uswest.net Thu May 4 02:45:20 2006 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 00:45:20 -0700 Subject: IEEE Annals of Computer History References: <20060502221221.39942.qmail@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011f01c66f4e$b2ab49a0$eee7e444@SONYDIGITALED> but nothing is better than curling up in the armchair with printed stuff! ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 3:12 PM Subject: Re: IEEE Annals of Computer History > --- Richard wrote: > >> Is anyone here a subscriber? Would you recommend >> it? > > Definitely. I am an ACM member, and joined the IEEE > Computer Society as an affiliate for the express > purpose of subscribing to the Annals. The archives > back to day 1 are all available online when you have a > print subscription. > > --Bill > > > From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu May 4 09:15:02 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 09:15:02 -0500 Subject: Daves Old Computers has moved. Message-ID: <200605041315.k44DFaLv001906@mail4.magma.ca> Just a note to let everyone know that thanks to Jays generosity, my "Daves Old Computers" site has found a new home. The new location is: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield Hopefully it will not move again for a long time, however for future reference, please remember that the link on www.dunfield.com should always reflect the correct location for the site. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 4 09:09:04 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 07:09:04 -0700 Subject: 360k disk and 1.44 drives not happy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi I found the following site with a lot of good info about floppy drives. The only thing missing is a good pinout chart for the different types of drives. http://cma.zdnet.com/book/upgraderepair/ch13/ch13.htm As promised Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 12:09:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 11:09:16 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4105, 4205 color graphics terminals for sale/trade Message-ID: Before I contact the local Tektronix reseller or put these on ebay, I thought I would give the list a chance to get at these. They are all equipment from Telogy, an electronics test and measurement rental equipment company that went out of business. These are units that were electrically tested and calibrated by Telogy in the 1995 time frame. I will guarantee against DOA, but otherwise they are as-is with keyboards. Cosmetically they are in good condition although some units have the typical fading of equipment from the mid 80s. I am willing to trade for terminal servers, serial terminals (particularly ones capable of graphics), or anything interesting that's graphics related. Contact me off-list if you are interested. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From alberto at a2sistemi.it Thu May 4 12:22:41 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:22:41 +0200 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: <200605041315.k44DFaLv001906@mail4.magma.ca> Message-ID: I'm going to move an old Honeywell DPS6, working. I've in mind to park the heads of the disk ... but how ? The disk unit is from Magnetic Peripherals , model 9448 Internal parts are from CDC , the only code present is BJ7D1-A Anyone know this unit/system ? Thanks Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 12:23:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 11:23:11 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score Message-ID: Thanks to someone on this list (sorry I can't remember who it was) who enlightened me that Beehive OEM'ed their terminal to Cromemco, I was finally able to get a Beehive terminal into my collection. Its a Cromemco 3101 terminal in excellent cosmetic condition and amazingly enough for a Beehive design, it still works. Because of the cosmetic condition and the Cromemco labelling, I had to pay a premium for it on ebay, but considering that I've yet to find anyone with a working Beehive terminal in their collection I still consider myself lucky in being able to find one. If it weren't for this list, I would've remained ignorant of the Beehive connection on this terminal and probably would have passed it by. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 12:28:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 11:28:28 -0600 Subject: Manual for ADM-5? Message-ID: Does anyone have any documentation for the Lear Siegler ADM-5 terminal? There's nothing on manx or bitsavers... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 4 12:45:35 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 10:45:35 -0700 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445A3DBF.9020504@msm.umr.edu> Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi wrote: >I'm going to move an old Honeywell DPS6, working. >I've in mind to park the heads of the disk ... but how ? >The disk unit is from Magnetic Peripherals , model 9448 >Internal parts are from CDC , the only code present is BJ7D1-A >Anyone know this unit/system ? > >Thanks > >Alberto > > > Is this the 96mb, 16 removable single platter, over 80 fixed, or is it the 80, or 160mb mini module? If it is the mini module, you drop the bottom cover and there is a head lock near the front. There is a spindle lock to stop the drive from rotating that is on the HDA that is integrated into the static tab assembly that touches the center of the spindle. This requires a phillips head to remove this strap, and then rotate the spindle till the tab engages a raised round slot on the spindle, blocking it. you then replace the two screws to leave it blocked. I think the 96mb unit has a similar system, but we only used the sealed hda's. Jim From alberto at a2sistemi.it Thu May 4 13:23:23 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 20:23:23 +0200 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: <445A3DBF.9020504@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > Is this the 96mb, 16 removable single platter, over 80 fixed, or is it > the 80, > or 160mb mini module? It is a removable unit, the spare disks are similar to RL02 disks and others. Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 4 14:39:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 20:39:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: from "Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi" at May 4, 6 07:22:41 pm Message-ID: > > I'm going to move an old Honeywell DPS6, working. > I've in mind to park the heads of the disk ... but how ? > The disk unit is from Magnetic Peripherals , model 9448 > Internal parts are from CDC , the only code present is BJ7D1-A > Anyone know this unit/system ? I have the CDC9448 service manual in front of me. I believe this is what was called a 'Phoenix' drive To lock the heads, first remove the top cover from the drive (screws on the back IIRC). On top of the positioner is a metal bar, held down by a screw at one end. Near that end there's a pin sticking out from one side of the bar. And a pin sticking out from the other side at the other end of the bar. Remove the screw holding the bar in place and engage the pin near the mounting hole with the hole in the head carriage. Then screw the bar back to the positioner frame. The idea is that the bar will then lock the carriage in the home position. The pin at the other enf of the bar is used to hold the carriage at the right position for head alignment. It's used when the drive is spinning -- moving tyhe heads out that far with the drive stopped will do a lot of damage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 4 14:42:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 20:42:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 4, 6 11:23:11 am Message-ID: > for it on ebay, but considering that I've yet to find anyone with a > working Beehive terminal in their collection I still consider myself > lucky in being able to find one. I wasn't aware Beehive teeminals were rare. I have 3 of them... The oldst one I have is controlled by an 8008. It has the 'interesting' feature of a hebrew character set (!). The other 2 are similar electronically, one has a detactable keyboard, the other a fixed keyboard. I was given these with some Philips P800 series stuff -- I am told they were the original termianls used on those machines. Those are 8085-based. I also have a spare logic board for that type of terminal, and even a spare CRT+yoke (the chap who gave me this stuff told me that the CRT was very difficult to obtain). -tony From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu May 4 15:00:13 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:00:13 -0400 Subject: Daves Old Computers has moved. In-Reply-To: <200605041315.k44DFaLv001906@mail4.magma.ca> References: <200605041315.k44DFaLv001906@mail4.magma.ca> Message-ID: <200605041600.13344.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 04 May 2006 10:15 am, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > Just a note to let everyone know that thanks to Jays generosity, my > "Daves Old Computers" site has found a new home. > > The new location is: > > www.classiccmp.org/dunfield > > Hopefully it will not move again for a long time, however for future > reference, please remember that the link on www.dunfield.com > should always reflect the correct location for the site. > > Regards, > Dave My parts pages have been moved to there too, or at least the updated files have been put there -- I haven't yet taken down the ones on my ISP's space yet. Now I need to start uploading all of those part datasheets! It's at: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu May 4 15:01:42 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:01:42 -0400 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605041601.42935.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 04 May 2006 01:23 pm, Richard wrote: > Thanks to someone on this list (sorry I can't remember who it was) who > enlightened me that Beehive OEM'ed their terminal to Cromemco, I was > finally able to get a Beehive terminal into my collection. > > Its a Cromemco 3101 terminal in excellent cosmetic condition and > amazingly enough for a Beehive design, it still works. Because of the > cosmetic condition and the Cromemco labelling, I had to pay a premium > for it on ebay, but considering that I've yet to find anyone with a > working Beehive terminal in their collection I still consider myself > lucky in being able to find one. > > If it weren't for this list, I would've remained ignorant of the > Beehive connection on this terminal and probably would have passed it > by. I have one of those too, sitting in storage, that came with my Cromemco System 3. The only problem with it the last time I fired it up was that the fan was a bit noisy, which I probably should take care of at some point with a drop of oil in the bearings... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu May 4 15:02:31 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:02:31 -0400 Subject: Manual for ADM-5? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605041602.31869.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 04 May 2006 01:28 pm, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have any documentation for the Lear Siegler ADM-5 terminal? > > There's nothing on manx or bitsavers... I actually had 4-5 of those at one point. What sort of docs are you looking for? I *think* I may have acquired a schematic for them but would have to do some digging to find it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 4 16:24:55 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 16:24:55 Subject: FA: SGI Spaceball, Dialbox, Buttonbox and other stuff Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060504162455.133736da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Cleaning up again. Joe From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 15:59:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 14:59:29 -0600 Subject: Manual for ADM-5? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 May 2006 16:02:31 -0400. <200605041602.31869.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200605041602.31869.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > On Thursday 04 May 2006 01:28 pm, Richard wrote: > > Does anyone have any documentation for the Lear Siegler ADM-5 terminal? > > > > There's nothing on manx or bitsavers... > > I actually had 4-5 of those at one point. What sort of docs are you looking > for? I *think* I may have acquired a schematic for them but would have to do > some digging to find it... Anything would be a step up from nothing :-). The standard trifecta is desired: owner/operator's manual, programmer's reference and service manual. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 16:06:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 15:06:51 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 May 2006 20:42:06 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > for it on ebay, but considering that I've yet to find anyone with a > > working Beehive terminal in their collection I still consider myself > > lucky in being able to find one. > > I wasn't aware Beehive teeminals were rare. I have 3 of them... I asked around on the list a couple times and the only response I recall was something along the lines of " had one of those and it died, never got it working again " (my paraphrase). Even "back in the day" the Beehives that we had were breaking fairly often. I have a feeling that people got sick of fixing them and just junked them. In our case, I think the terminals were only rated to 85 degrees fahrenheit operating temperature and our terminal room would routinely exceed that in the summer time. The failure mode was that the RAM chips for the display memory would start randomly toggling bits. This made your screen resemble some sort of chaotic "game of life" scenario. We soon learned the motor skills necessary to restore the proper screen state by doing the following sequence rapidly: - terminal offline - cursor home - clear from cursor to end of screen - terminal online - refresh display in the editor > The oldst one I have is controlled by an 8008. [...] I'd be interested in seeing pictures and model numbers for the ones you have. There are several different models that were made by Beehive. I have interest in them for two reasons: first, I used to use one in the 78-80 time frame and second, they were manufactured in Salt Lake City, Utah where I live now. > [...] I also have a spare logic board for that type of terminal, > and even a spare CRT+yoke (the chap who gave me this stuff told me that > the CRT was very difficult to obtain). I would be particularly interested to know the model for which this applies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 4 16:35:41 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 16:35:41 Subject: HP9817 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060504163541.139fd6f8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:35 AM 5/3/06 +0100, you wrote: >A rather strange question : Was there ever an 68020 daughterboard for >the HP9817 (aka HP9000/217)? Not that i've ever heard of. It's definity not mentioned in any of the HP catalogs, installation guides or configuration guides. AFIK The 9000 200 series were strickly 68000 and 68010 based but it's POSSIBLE that the circuit card used in the 9817 were designed to also be used in some of the 68020 based 9000 300 series machines. FWIW I've only seen one of two 9817s and I don't think I've ever powered one up or taken one apart. > >The reason I ask is as follows. The HP9817 (I have one in bits on the bench >at the moment) uses a 68010 processor. It's in a PGA pacakge, and is >socketed. As the data sheet shows, it's a 10*10 PGA, with 2 rows of pins >round the outside, and the 4 internal corner pins (a total of 68 pins). > >However the socket on the HP9817 board has all 100 contacts fitted. And >some of the ones that don't correspond to pins on the 68010 have traces >going to them. It appears these are extra intputs to the MMU circuit (in >particular to the 'Tag RAM' for virtual memory paging). Sounds like that socket may be intended for a daughterboard with additional memory. Joe > >I am wondering, therefore, if the machine was designed to take a >processor with more address lines brought out, the obvious candidate >being the 68020. Of corse it would need a daughterboard to rearrange the >pinout, but apart from that it may well drop straight in. > >-tony > From allain at panix.com Thu May 4 17:12:57 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 18:12:57 -0400 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score References: Message-ID: <003d01c66fc7$e6f48f40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> I wasn't aware Beehive teeminals were rare. I have 3 of them... Beware. Everything we consider as a classic terminal is either extremely rare today, or a historical anomaly (EG the town library card system that hasn't been upgraded in 15 years). Don't rest if you want one. Aside: Book cover image on Amazon http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0674022033.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V55737222_.jpg "Made to Break: Technology and Obsolescence in America" by Giles Slade about a hundred computer monitors shown in a dumpster John A. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 17:22:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 16:22:10 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 May 2006 18:12:57 -0400. <003d01c66fc7$e6f48f40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <003d01c66fc7$e6f48f40$21fe54a6 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > >> I wasn't aware Beehive teeminals were rare. I have 3 of them... > > Beware. Everything we consider as a classic terminal is either > extremely rare today, or a historical anomaly (EG the town library > card system that hasn't been upgraded in 15 years). Don't rest > if you want one. I would go further and say that terminals themselves are becoming extremely rare. Most places that used to use terminals (hospitals, banks, etc.) now use a Windows thinclient type device so that they can have menus, mice, graphics, etc. (Never mind that almost all the information they display is character data.) Thin clients leverage the average knowledge people have about using a Windows type interface and also get to leverage the economics of PC compatible monitors, mice and keyboards. Just how many terminal manufacturers are left, anyway? I can only think of Wyse and Link (which makes a Wyse clone). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From allain at panix.com Thu May 4 17:34:29 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 18:34:29 -0400 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score References: Message-ID: <00d301c66fca$e9154500$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I would go further and say that terminals themselves are becoming > extremely rare. Yes, that's what was just said, Hmmm... From alberto at a2sistemi.it Thu May 4 17:47:52 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 00:47:52 +0200 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have the CDC9448 service manual in front of me. I believe this is what > was called a 'Phoenix' drive GREAT ! I've printed all your message. Saturday is the day of the DPS6 transport :) Thanks a lot ! Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu May 4 18:06:54 2006 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 00:06:54 +0100 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445A890E.10304@frixxon.co.uk> Richard wrote: > > Just how many terminal manufacturers are left, anyway? I can only > think of Wyse and Link (which makes a Wyse clone). Wyse bought Link nearly twenty years ago. -- Paul From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 18:09:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 17:09:17 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 May 2006 18:34:29 -0400. <00d301c66fca$e9154500$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <00d301c66fca$e9154500$21fe54a6 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > > I would go further and say that terminals themselves are becoming > > extremely rare. > > Yes, that's what was just said, Hmmm... Sorry, I thought the statement was referring only to Beehive terminals. As someone who started computing with serial terminals and has started collecting them in the past couple of years I'm noticing that they don't appear too often on ebay or for offer on this or the rescue list. For instance, consider the wide range of manufacturers and terminal features described here: (I happen to know Nelson Beebe who wrote these reviews; he is probably the most knowledgable TeXpert in Utah.) How many of the companies mentioned there still exist? Some, but none of the ones mentioned still make terminals... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 18:10:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 17:10:32 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 May 2006 00:06:54 +0100. <445A890E.10304@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <445A890E.10304 at frixxon.co.uk>, Paul Williams writes: > Richard wrote: > > > > Just how many terminal manufacturers are left, anyway? I can only > > think of Wyse and Link (which makes a Wyse clone). > > Wyse bought Link nearly twenty years ago. So that leaves just one manufacturer of serial terminals? Do they still market terminals under the Link brand? I've seen "Link" terminals offered on ebay NIB, but from a collector's standpoint they're not very interesting. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu May 4 18:40:10 2006 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 00:40:10 +0100 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445A90DA.2010601@frixxon.co.uk> Richard wrote: > > So that leaves just one manufacturer of serial terminals? Boundless and TeleVideo are still in business, though TeleVideo has just filed for Chapter 11 protection. -- Paul From lee at geekdot.com Thu May 4 18:57:02 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 01:57:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score Message-ID: <1514.86.138.231.62.1146787022.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > How many of the companies mentioned there still exist? Some, but none > of the ones mentioned still make terminals... Another company that doesn't make terminals anymore is Matrox. Not much on their terminals on the web either. Lee. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 19:01:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 18:01:36 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 May 2006 00:40:10 +0100. <445A90DA.2010601@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <445A90DA.2010601 at frixxon.co.uk>, Paul Williams writes: > Richard wrote: > > > > So that leaves just one manufacturer of serial terminals? > > Boundless and TeleVideo are still in business, though TeleVideo has just > filed for Chapter 11 protection. Ah. I didn't know TeleVideo was still around, although it makes sense since I see their brand of thin clients on ebay. I should have remembered Boundless. Didn't Boundless buy the terminal business line from HP or DEC? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 19:02:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 18:02:28 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 May 2006 01:57:02 +0200. <1514.86.138.231.62.1146787022.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: In article <1514.86.138.231.62.1146787022.squirrel at webmail.geekdot.com>, "Lee Davison" writes: > > How many of the companies mentioned there still exist? Some, but none > > of the ones mentioned still make terminals... > > Another company that doesn't make terminals anymore is Matrox. Not much on > their terminals on the web either. See, I didn't even know that Matrox ever made a terminal :-). This is the same Matrox that makes PCI video cards in Dorvall, Quebec, CA? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 4 19:11:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 17:11:45 -0700 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605041711450053.0C06A9F8@10.0.0.252> On 5/4/2006 at 4:22 PM Richard wrote: >I would go further and say that terminals themselves are becoming >extremely rare. In point of fact, when was the last terminal manufactured that didn't contain a microprocessor of some sort? Early-mid 70's maybe? After that, the difference between a PC and a terminal is largely a matter of degree--witness the large number of manufacturers (Televideo, Beehive, DEC, etc.) who said "You know, if we just drop a disk drive and some more memory into this thing, we'd have a PC". When I moved from a terminal to a PC connected as a terminal, I thought I'd gone to heaven. I don't miss terminals at all. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 4 19:15:59 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 20:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: <200605041711450053.0C06A9F8@10.0.0.252> References: <200605041711450053.0C06A9F8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605050022.UAA02928@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > manufacturers [...] who said "You know, if we just drop a disk drive > and some more memory into this thing, we'd have a PC". > When I moved from a terminal to a PC connected as a terminal, I > thought I'd gone to heaven. I don't miss terminals at all. I do. In some respects, at least. Terminals are smaller. They are quieter. They suck less power. They generate less heat. They boot a *hell* of a lot faster - most terminals are functioning before even aimed-at-embedded SBCs have more than barely started POST, never mind booted. They're less expensive. Of course, there are other respects in which terminals fall short. Most of them can be summarized as "they're less flexible" - for exmaple, you can't capture output into a file, you can't copy a file into the input stream, you have limited (in some cases *very* limited) local editing capability.... But then, sometimes I'll use my Swiss army knife - and sometimes I'll reach for a real screwdriver. Terminals have a place in my ideal world, even though computers running terminal emulators do too. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lee at geekdot.com Thu May 4 19:29:27 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 02:29:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score Message-ID: <1746.86.138.231.62.1146788967.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > This is the same Matrox that makes PCI video cards in Dorvall, Quebec, > CA? One and the same. AFAIK Matrox started out making terminals. Lee. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 4 19:39:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 18:39:57 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 May 2006 17:11:45 -0700. <200605041711450053.0C06A9F8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200605041711450053.0C06A9F8 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 5/4/2006 at 4:22 PM Richard wrote: > > >I would go further and say that terminals themselves are becoming > >extremely rare. > > In point of fact, when was the last terminal manufactured that didn't > contain a microprocessor of some sort? Early-mid 70's maybe? Yep. "The Intel 8008 was an early microprocessor designed and manufactured by Intel and introduced in April, 1972. The 8008, originally codenamed 1201, was originally commissioned by Computer Terminal Corporation for use in its Datapoint 2200 programmable terminal, but because the chip was delivered late and did not meet CTC's performance goals, the chip was not used in the 2200. An agreement between Intel and CTC permitted Intel to market the chip to other customers." So not only were terminals quick to turn to microprocessors over SSI/MSI logic (hell, who wouldn't?), but microprocessors themselves owe some of their legacy to terminals. > After that, the difference between a PC and a terminal is largely a matter > of degree--witness the large number of manufacturers (Televideo, Beehive, > DEC, etc.) who said "You know, if we just drop a disk drive and some more > memory into this thing, we'd have a PC". Sure, but there was a period when the quality of text and graphics displayed on terminals exceeded that displayed on PCs. The HP2621 has a font that is extremely easy on the eyes. PC font rendering in text mode wouldn't catch up for a long time and there's even some question of whether or not the font rendering in GDI is comparable in quality. Depending on the terminal, you could say that the PC didn't catch up to all the architectural features of terminals until the graphics cards with HW transformation and lighting appeared. And that wasn't too long ago -- 2000? But that's a little unfair as most terminals were geared towards text applications and not graphics applications. Graphics terminals are a very interesting breed. They flourished in the window of opportunity between the wave of minicomputers and the wave of workstations. A minicomputer and a graphics terminal (i.e. PDP-11/03 + Tektronix 4010) was some pretty hot shit for a small organization in 1975. By the time 1986 rolls around, that same organization would probably be buying a workstation to do the equivalent work. > When I moved from a terminal to a PC connected as a terminal, I thought I'd > gone to heaven. I don't miss terminals at all. All my cctalk messages have been composed in vi through a *nix shell session connected to my PC via a telnet session in CRT v2.2 from . In a day-to-day sense, although I still use character-based applications on a daily basis (email and usenet), they're all used via a terminal program running on my local PC. Copy and paste into serial sessions is a dogsend :-). I only miss terminals in a nostalgic sense. They were the "face of the computer" when I learned programming in 1978 at the University of Delaware (I wasn't a student there yet; I was 13). I started on the LA-36, then moved to the CRTs made by Beehive and occasionally used a VT-52, VT-100 or HP2648A. When I needed "letter quality" printing for my high school English class, I used the IBM 2741 to print out my output from RSTS/E's RUNOFF. I got into graphics after using the Tektronix 4010. If it weren't for the 4010, I'd probably be something like a chemist or chemical engineer now, I don't know if I would have stayed with software. By the time I was a student at udel.edu in 1982, they had switched to Zenith Z-29s and HP 2621s as their terminal of choice. Terminals with attached Epson FX-80 era/style printers were available for hardcopy, or you could submit it to a laser line printer. By the time I graduated in 1986, they were just starting to transition to workstations for their student computing labs (research offices already had them or PCs). When I got to utah.edu in 1988, the CS department had facilities that were almost exclusively workstations (mostly HP9000/680x0 workstations with a utah.edu port of bsd; Robert Kessler had gotten a $5 million equipment grant from HP). The public computing labs had PCs and Macs. There were still some Teleray 10s around the department in graduate student offices for doing work when the workstations were busy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 4 20:20:39 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 18:20:39 -0700 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:01 PM -0600 5/4/06, Richard wrote: >remembered Boundless. Didn't Boundless buy the terminal business line >from HP or DEC? I'm pretty sure it was DEC, if it wasn't DEC, then they got the DEC terminal line from Compaq. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 4 21:04:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 19:04:35 -0700 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605041904350286.0C6DF6DE@10.0.0.252> On 5/4/2006 at 6:39 PM Richard wrote: >If it weren't for the 4010, I'd probably be something like a chemist or >chemical engineer now, I don't know if I would have stayed with software. My early exposure to terminals was of the printing variety. The console typewriter on the 1620 (NOT a Selectric, BTW), then some ASR-33s. Most of the systems I used offered some sort of interactive capability only as an afterthought. Text editing on an ASR-33 was ridiculous--give me a keypunch any day! The first non-printing terminals that I used were the CDC Intercom terminals, but Intercom was intended as an RJE system--a terminal, a card reader and a printer. (BTW, the small drum printers on those things were pretty neat--I wonder if any have survived). I built a TV Typewriter for my MITS box, but I yearned for an ASR-33 to handle printing and punched tape storage. It wasn't until about 1977 or so, when I acquired a Beehive terminal and a Diablo daisywheel to add to my MITS box. I wrote my own full-screen editor and edited my files locally before uploading them. Similarly, I'd use the MITS to spool my output to the Diablo (not a 620, but rather the 12-bit parallel interface printer--I don't recall the model). Along the way, I took on some contracts writing terminal firmware, but compared to what a processor could do with some disk storage, a terminal seemed so lame. Mostly, terminals were cheap--a Wyse 50 was lots cheaper than even the cheapest IBM PC. Did anyone mention Tab as a terminal maker? They were, you know--they had a very sturdy version of the VT-220 that I recall--if I dig a bit, I may even have some firmware in source form for one of those things. I was less impressed with later Beehive terminals--they all seemed to have some bugs with the firmware. But even when I was using a VAX with direct-wired terminals, I much preferred a PC with a Hercules Graphics Plus card to any terminal--I could do so much more--and the fonts were pretty presentable. Hercules graphics weren't bad either. Cheers, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu May 4 21:14:23 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:14:23 -0700 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: <200605041904350286.0C6DF6DE@10.0.0.252> References: <200605041904350286.0C6DF6DE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Unfortunately early Beehive terminals were highly valued by scrappers for the metals. this is one of the reasons they are so rare. My scrapper friend went out of his way to find aluminum backed Beehives as their cards were good gold also. Early Beehives are quite rare and worth keeping. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu May 4 22:08:57 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 23:08:57 -0400 Subject: Manual for ADM-5? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605042308.57393.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 04 May 2006 04:59 pm, Richard wrote: > In article <200605041602.31869.rtellason at blazenet.net>, > "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > On Thursday 04 May 2006 01:28 pm, Richard wrote: > > > Does anyone have any documentation for the Lear Siegler ADM-5 terminal? > > > > > > There's nothing on manx or bitsavers... > > > > I actually had 4-5 of those at one point. What sort of docs are you > > looking for? I *think* I may have acquired a schematic for them but > > would have to do some digging to find it... > > Anything would be a step up from nothing :-). > > The standard trifecta is desired: owner/operator's manual, > programmer's reference and service manual. A quick look hasn't turned anything up yet, let me do a little digging and get back to you... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 4 22:17:28 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 22:17:28 -0500 Subject: Fw: Diagnostic listings Message-ID: <004101c66ff2$710aa690$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm posting this for a non-listmember. If anyone knows the answer or wishes to reply, please reply to the original author below, not me. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Clery" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 4:20 AM Subject: Diagnostic listings > Do you know where I can obtain the maindec listings for the ZRKH to ZRKL > programs? > > > Regards > > > Mike Clery > Consultant > > > Thruput Ltd > Studio House, > 5 Flowers Hill, > Brislington > Bristol > BS4 5JJ > > Tel:+44 117 3305980 > Fax:+44 117 300 5584 > > From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu May 4 22:14:18 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 23:14:18 -0400 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605042314.19090.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 04 May 2006 06:22 pm, Richard wrote: > Most places that used to use terminals (hospitals, banks, etc.) now > use a Windows thinclient type device so that they can have menus, > mice, graphics, etc. (Never mind that almost all the information they > display is character data.) Thin clients leverage the average > knowledge people have about using a Windows type interface and also > get to leverage the economics of PC compatible monitors, mice and > keyboards. Having worked at a place where terminals were replaced by PCs with NT installed I can only say that it was extremely annoying to work with, in that environment, though it did give me the ability to have more than one "terminal" open at a time, as well as a few other applications. That aside, the batch of stuff that I mentioned in here recently was just such a case -- the equipment was replaced with PCs and kept as a backup, and then they got a second set of PCs as a backup, so... I should know more about this stuff over the weekend. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 4 22:24:54 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 22:24:54 -0500 Subject: Software archiving news from the Computer History Museum References: Message-ID: <006d01c66ff3$7a948e50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Congratulations by the way!! Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 2:46 PM Subject: Software archiving news from the Computer History Museum > > Just wanted to mention that I've joined the staff of the Computer > History Museum as Software Curator. I can be reached at my bitsavers > address or my new address at the Museum. I'm hoping to expand the CHM > collection by becoming more proactive in trying to locate and archive > what early software still survives, which means trying to contact > people who might still have old media and listings, especially from > the seventies and earlier. > > http://www.computerhistory.org/about/staff/kossow/ > > > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 5 00:11:39 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 00:11:39 -0500 Subject: CV Mod 32/ Sun 3004 CPU questions Message-ID: <444c038dea5f41af8089b74052fd5ee6@valleyimplants.com> Replaced the tantalum cap in the VME terminator paddle boards on the ComputerVision, fired it up, and I'm getting chasing lights on the diag panel. It does it with all cards, and with only the CPU. Looking at the behavior of a Sun 3/110, it looks like maybe the power-on reset circuit is flakey (3/110 chases once and then goes into selftest patterns, 3004 keeps chasing). Couldn't find this discribed on the Sun3 Zoo webpage. Anyone come across it? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 5 00:34:49 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 17:34:49 +1200 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: <445A890E.10304@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: On 5/5/06, Richard wrote: > I've seen "Link" terminals offered on ebay NIB, but from a collector's > standpoint they're not very interesting. I've got a Link terminal here - we use them for talking to these multi-channel high-voltage generator boxes (like a LeCroy 1458). We also have a few DEC terminals in sad shape due to their age (cracked cases, tubes with burn-in, etc.) Two years ago, I had to rescue two NiB Link terminals from going to Waste. I've used both of them several times a year since then... a good save. But I'd agree - there's nothing spectacular about them... Given the choice, I'd probably rather have a "modern" DEC terminal. -ethan From asholz at topinform.de Fri May 5 04:14:30 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 11:14:30 +0200 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445B1776.2090204@topinform.de> Tony Duell schrieb: >> I'm going to move an old Honeywell DPS6, working. >> I've in mind to park the heads of the disk ... but how ? >> The disk unit is from Magnetic Peripherals , model 9448 >> Internal parts are from CDC , the only code present is BJ7D1-A >> Anyone know this unit/system ? >> > > I have the CDC9448 service manual in front of me. I believe this is what > was called a 'Phoenix' drive > Could you provide a scan of this manual please!!!! Andreas From alberto at a2sistemi.it Fri May 5 04:36:55 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:36:55 +0200 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: <445B1776.2090204@topinform.de> Message-ID: > Could you provide a scan of this manual please!!!! It would be a fantastic dream to have an electronic copy of this manual. :) Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 5 11:37:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 10:37:34 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 May 2006 17:34:49 +1200. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > But I'd agree - there's nothing spectacular about them... Given the > choice, I'd probably rather have a "modern" DEC terminal. >From a collector's viewpoint, modern terminals don't have much visual appeal. I think once the electronics got small enough to fit inside the enclosure for the CRT tube, all the terminals started to look like monitors with keyboard and serial ports. It seems that nowadays terminals are only used for character markets where cost is a factor. Fancy graphics terminals probably won't ever come back, except possibly as some sort of beefy thin client. Is anything still going on with X terminals? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From allain at panix.com Fri May 5 11:46:30 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:46:30 -0400 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score References: Message-ID: <008501c67063$76181200$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >> Didn't Boundless buy the terminal business line from HP or DEC? > I'm pretty sure it was DEC, if it wasn't DEC, then they got the DEC > terminal line from Compaq. "On 30 August 1995, Digital announced the sale of their text terminals business to SunRiver Data Systems, who changed their name to Boundless Technologies in August 1996." -- http://vt100.net/vt_history From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 5 11:50:25 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 12:50:25 -0400 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445B8251.3010407@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article , > "Ethan Dicks" writes: > >> But I'd agree - there's nothing spectacular about them... Given the >> choice, I'd probably rather have a "modern" DEC terminal. > >>From a collector's viewpoint, modern terminals don't have much visual > appeal. I think once the electronics got small enough to fit inside > the enclosure for the CRT tube, all the terminals started to look like > monitors with keyboard and serial ports. > > It seems that nowadays terminals are only used for character markets > where cost is a factor. Fancy graphics terminals probably won't ever > come back, except possibly as some sort of beefy thin client. > > Is anything still going on with X terminals? There's the Sun Ray series. It's a bit more than an X-terminal, but it's the same kind of idea. I have two DEC VT340's I use *constantly*. Peace... Sridhar From kth at srv.net Fri May 5 13:04:38 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 12:04:38 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445B93B6.3070903@srv.net> Richard wrote: > From a collector's viewpoint, modern terminals don't have much visual > >appeal. I think once the electronics got small enough to fit inside >the enclosure for the CRT tube, all the terminals started to look like >monitors with keyboard and serial ports. > >It seems that nowadays terminals are only used for character markets >where cost is a factor. Fancy graphics terminals probably won't ever >come back, except possibly as some sort of beefy thin client. > > Often, PC's are actually cheaper than terminals, and users usually have one on their desk anyway. >Is anything still going on with X terminals? > > I find that low-end (used) PC's with Linux/X11 on them are cheaper and easier to maintain than actual X terminals. Old used PC's (800+Mhz, 4+gb disk, 64+Mb ram) with monitors are available under $200. Real (used) X terminals often start at $300 for similiar hardware. Most of the time you really don't need a high end PC just to support a few windows (usually xterms). Load a PC with Linux (or BSD) and X.open, you get a current X11 implementation, and the ability to update it later if bugs are found, etc. Many of the X terminals have strange monitors, weird keyboards, and assorted other odd objects in them that are not easily available for repair. PC repair parts are easily available. Goodwill stores and government auctions become a good source of spare parts. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri May 5 13:44:33 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:44:33 -0700 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 Message-ID: I'm going to move an old Honeywell DPS6, working. I've in mind to park the heads of the disk ... but how ? The disk unit is from Magnetic Peripherals , model 9448 Internal parts are from CDC , the only code present is BJ7D1-A Anyone know this unit/system ? Thanks Alberto Hah, that brings back memories. The 9448 was code named the Phoenix or cartridge module drive or CMD. Built in Oklahoma City in the early 80's. It's part of the SMD family, sharing the same interface and some of the components, like platters and heads. And used a common Servo Track Writer, the key to their success. For shipping there should be a head locking bar. Lift up the top cover (with power off). On top of the actuator should be a bar with two pins sticking out. There should be a yellow label showing how to twist the bar 90 degrees and it fits into a hole on the carriage and the frame. There was also an instruction sheet stuck inside the top cover with a drawing showing how to install the bar. A lot of the field engineers used to paint the outline of the bar in red for newbies. When new, there was a green card taped to the outer plastic bag with locking and shipping instructions. I don't have any manuals handy - I'm still in Orange County. But if nobody else on the list has any, I'll look on my next trip up to the Bay area - Mother's Day. I think all of my parts are gone, though I did come across a box of heads recently. In the last few months, I've seen the field tester come up several times on eBay. It was called the TB-216. One went for $10 a couple of months ago. These would work on any SMD family drive. Right now there is a Wilson Labs in auction. That also works on any SMD drive, as well as most of the Fujitsu drives. I've seen cartridges on eBay several times, but the idiots open them up to show the platters, thereby hopelessly contaminating them. I used to clean them, but it takes careful patience. The CMD was one of the drives I supported out of OK City for 10 years. I did all the cartridge drives, but mainly the Hawk and Phoenix. I did a long write up on that time recently for an alumni memory book. I should revise it and post it here, provided the list owner doesn't mind 20 pages of ramblings. Incidently, the Lead Design engineer, a media engineer and one of the firmware engineers for the Phoenix work with me here at Western Digital. I shared with them that there still is a Phoenix working somewhere. It delights us all. We spent a lot late nights getting it debugged. Especially contamination issues; removeable media was a Black Art to keep running. Billy From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 5 14:03:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 13:03:06 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 May 2006 12:04:38 -0600. <445B93B6.3070903@srv.net> Message-ID: In article <445B93B6.3070903 at srv.net>, Kevin Handy writes: > Many of the X terminals have strange monitors, weird keyboards, and > assorted > other odd objects in them that are not easily available for repair. But this is what makes them interesting as a collector. PCs w/linux and X11 are very ho-hum from the viewpoint of a collector of vintage gear. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 5 15:13:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 14:13:50 -0600 Subject: Anyone near Hooks, TX / Texarkana, TX? Message-ID: It seems that govliquidation.com has had *lots* of good mini and workstation stuff going out of this location. Is there anyone on the list near to that location? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From djg at pdp8.net Fri May 5 15:27:03 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 16:27:03 -0400 Subject: DEC mark sense "punched" cards Message-ID: <200605052027.k45KR3106847@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Does anybody have the mark sense "punched" card that was used with OS/8 MSBATCH. A Basic and Fortran version was available where you used a pencil to mark up a punched card to write your programs. Scan from manual ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/mark_card.jpg If so what color were they printed? Does anybody have a spare one I could get? I would like one original to show at VCF east. I am hopeing to make some and get my reader working. From dundas at caltech.edu Fri May 5 16:02:49 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 14:02:49 -0700 Subject: DEC mark sense "punched" cards In-Reply-To: <200605052027.k45KR3106847@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200605052027.k45KR3106847@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: At 4:27 PM -0400 5/5/06, djg at pdp8.net wrote: > Does anybody have the mark sense "punched" card that was used with >OS/8 MSBATCH. A Basic and Fortran version was available where you >used a pencil to mark up a punched card to write your programs. > >Scan from manual >ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/mark_card.jpg > >If so what color were they printed? Does anybody have a spare one I >could get? I would like one original to show at VCF east. I am hopeing >to make some and get my reader working. Doug, I have good resolution scans of the Basic card at: John -- John A. Dundas III Director, IMSS Voice & Data Networks, Caltech Mail Code: 214-81, Pasadena, CA 91125-8100 Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:42:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 22:42:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: <200605041711450053.0C06A9F8@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 4, 6 05:11:45 pm Message-ID: > When I moved from a terminal to a PC connected as a terminal, I thought I'd > gone to heaven. I don't miss terminals at all. All I can say is that I've had so many buygy PC terminal emulators that I'm darn glad to haev the real terminals still in operation. I remember one so-called VT100 emulator for Windows (this would be about 10 years ago) that gaev a very interesting display when used with EDT on a VMS box... When I was doing my Ph.D. I kept an old VT100 running (I had the prints...) simply because it was a lot more reliable (in terms of getting the emulation right) than any PC product. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:46:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 22:46:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: <200605050022.UAA02928@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 4, 6 08:15:59 pm Message-ID: > Terminals are smaller. They are quieter. They suck less power. They > generate less heat. They boot a *hell* of a lot faster - most > terminals are functioning before even aimed-at-embedded SBCs have more > than barely started POST, never mind booted. They're less expensive. > > Of course, there are other respects in which terminals fall short. > Most of them can be summarized as "they're less flexible" - for > exmaple, you can't capture output into a file, you can't copy a file > into the input stream, you have limited (in some cases *very* limited) > local editing capability.... I find the HP95LX and 100LX to be a good compromise here. They're small, silent (apart from the beep) and run off a couple of AA cells. They have a reasonable terminal emulator in ROM which starts up in less time than most CRTs take to warm up (the main startup time of a traditional terminal). They can capture incoming data to a file in RAM, and they have kermit and XModem up/download. No, they're not a replacement for a real terminal (I use those as well). It's just another tool that sometimes useful. Like most people here I don't feel that one tool (in all senses of the word) has to solve all problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:56:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 22:56:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: <445B1776.2090204@topinform.de> from "Andreas Holz" at May 5, 6 11:14:30 am Message-ID: > > I have the CDC9448 service manual in front of me. I believe this is what > > was called a 'Phoenix' drive > > > Could you provide a scan of this manual please!!!! In order to do that, I would need : A scanner Someting to connect it to (a PC?) Some way of storing the data (CD writer?) A house extension to house it And most importanty, somebody to maintain it. Unless you know of a properly documented scanner that connects to a classic PERQ, that is :-) -tony From kth at srv.net Fri May 5 18:16:18 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 17:16:18 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445BDCC2.8090402@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: >All I can say is that I've had so many buygy PC terminal emulators that >I'm darn glad to haev the real terminals still in operation. I remember >one so-called VT100 emulator for Windows (this would be about 10 years >ago) that gaev a very interesting display when used with EDT on a VMS box... > >When I was doing my Ph.D. I kept an old VT100 running (I had the >prints...) simply because it was a lot more reliable (in terms of getting >the emulation right) than any PC product. > > Best VT100 emulators I've used so far has been kermit95 (for Windows), and xterm (for *nix). The terminal program that comes with windows (hyperterm) is one of the worst. Gnome terminal is also fairly lousy, but still better than hyperterm. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 5 18:20:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:20:41 -0700 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605051620410429.10FE3FFB@10.0.0.252> On 5/5/2006 at 10:42 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >All I can say is that I've had so many buygy PC terminal emulators that >I'm darn glad to haev the real terminals still in operation. I remember >one so-called VT100 emulator for Windows (this would be about 10 years >ago) that gaev a very interesting display when used with EDT on a VMS >box... Have programmed the firmware for a couple of VT100 and VT220 terminals, I don't see the difference, myself. Regardless of whether it's a PC or a terminal, you still have a CPU, a CRT controller, serial interfaces, and a bunch of programming. Often the devices used in one are the same as the ones used in the other. The big difference is that PCs have disks and allow one to choose what emulation software to use. I take no responsibility for others' buggy software. :) To my mind, this is somewhat akin to the business of PCs displacing word processing systems. While it might be true that the software on a Harris Lanier or Artec box was pretty well shaken out when it was deployed, there is no reason that the software to run on a PC could not also have been. And--this is important--a PC allowed the customer to change WP software at will, rather than being tied into one manufacturer's product. I imagine that the old 8" floppy-based dedicated word processors are even harder to locate than terminals--and that no one really misses them. Cheers, Chuck From menadeau at comcast.net Fri May 5 18:43:22 2006 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 19:43:22 -0400 Subject: Fw: Dell PC's Limited Message-ID: <005b01c6709d$b28561e0$6501a8c0@Mike> The gentleman below wants to give away his PC's Limited 286 PC. Anyone interested should contact him directly. ----- Original Message ----- From: C.S. ( Steve ) Kincaid To: menadeau at comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 8:46 AM Subject: Dell PC's Limited I have a Dell 286 PC's Limited that I purchased in 1987. It has a math chip. We used it in preparing income tax returns. I have been unable to get Dell to answer my emails, so I am turning to you. Is there a chance anyone would want this PC? I am running out of office space and need to find a home for it. I have the books and invoice for it. We haven't run it in several years, but it worked the last time we used it. Thanks, Steve Kincaid, CPA Magnolia, Arkansas 870-234-1500, ext. 303 870-235-1143, fax skincaid at cskincaidcpa.com From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri May 5 19:23:06 2006 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 17:23:06 -0700 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score (VT100 bugs) References: <200605051700.k45H055h079826@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000301c670a3$46338700$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I had a DEC VT100 that was made around 1980 that would crash when you sent it a certain escape sequence. You would have to power cycle the terminal to recover. Newer units did not have this problem (this was around 1985). When we discovered this we would send this sequence to peoples terminals to see if they crashed. I guess DEC did not get the terminal emulation correct at first. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley > All I can say is that I've had so many buygy PC terminal emulators that > I'm darn glad to haev the real terminals still in operation. I remember > one so-called VT100 emulator for Windows (this would be about 10 years > ago) that gaev a very interesting display when used with EDT on a VMS > box... > > When I was doing my Ph.D. I kept an old VT100 running (I had the > prints...) simply because it was a lot more reliable (in terms of getting > the emulation right) than any PC product. > > -tony > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 5 21:44:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 21:44:14 -0500 Subject: hp 7905/6/20 diagnostic tester Message-ID: <010801c670b6$f6c719c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ebay... item 8805060713 Extremely extremely handy for working on 7905/6/20 drives. This one has broken switches but those are fixable. Also includes the head alignment PCA and some of the tools (but it's clearly not the full offline test kit). I don't want to bid on this, I already have two of 'em. But I will bid on it if no one wants it just to save it from being scrapped. If someone has these type of drives, you should buy this. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 5 22:23:08 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 15:23:08 +1200 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score (VT100 bugs) In-Reply-To: <000301c670a3$46338700$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <200605051700.k45H055h079826@dewey.classiccmp.org> <000301c670a3$46338700$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: On 5/6/06, Michael Holley wrote: > I had a DEC VT100 that was made around 1980 that would crash when you sent > it a certain escape sequence. You would have to power cycle the terminal to > recover. Newer units did not have this problem (this was around 1985). When > we discovered this we would send this sequence to peoples terminals to see > if they crashed. > > I guess DEC did not get the terminal emulation correct at first. There are many known and well documented bugs with the VT100. The old program 'vttest' is a good place to learn more (and to test your emulator for bug-for-bug compatibility) -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 5 22:31:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 22:31:10 -0500 Subject: (VT100 bugs) References: <200605051700.k45H055h079826@dewey.classiccmp.org><000301c670a3$46338700$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <012d01c670bd$84b6a510$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Michael wrote.... >> I had a DEC VT100 that was made around 1980 that would crash when you >> sent >> it a certain escape sequence. I recall a terminal that could not position the cursor to a specific spot on the screen (directly), because the control/escape sequence used a particular sequence followed by a control character pair to designate a row/column to go to, and row or column 19 decimal designated by control-S caused the terminal to hold.... even if you did it in local mode from the keyboard :) I can't remember if the terminal that has this problem was an old ADDS viewpoint, or if it was one of the microterm ACT terminals. I do remember it was fixed in a shortly released firmware upgrade. I have an ADDS A2 I should try this out on. I also have two different models of micro-term ACT units. By the way, did anyone see what a microterm "ACT I" is going for on ebay? I should sell mine :) Jay West From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri May 5 22:40:57 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 22:40:57 -0500 Subject: hp 7905/6/20 diagnostic tester References: <010801c670b6$f6c719c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00c301c670be$e4b6f310$39406b43@66067007> Jay Thanks for the tip, I put a bid in on it. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:44 PM Subject: hp 7905/6/20 diagnostic tester > Ebay... item 8805060713 > > Extremely extremely handy for working on 7905/6/20 drives. This one has > broken switches but those are fixable. Also includes the head alignment > PCA and some of the tools (but it's clearly not the full offline test > kit). > > I don't want to bid on this, I already have two of 'em. But I will bid on > it if no one wants it just to save it from being scrapped. If someone has > these type of drives, you should buy this. > > Jay > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 6 13:46:50 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 11:46:50 -0700 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 Message-ID: > Could you provide a scan of this manual please!!!! The only chance you have of obtaining any printed document from Tony is to pay him to go to a place that has a copier. I don't think anyone has ever been able to successfully have this happen, though. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sat May 6 14:39:18 2006 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 20:39:18 +0100 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445CFB66.1050303@frixxon.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > The only chance you have of obtaining any printed document > from Tony is to pay him to go to a place that has a copier. > > I don't think anyone has ever been able to successfully > have this happen, though. You're wrong, so retract your claws. -- Paul From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat May 6 15:10:49 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 22:10:49 +0200 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) Message-ID: <445D02C9.9040607@bluewin.ch> Just kidding about the disk of course . But I now have a mint condition EC-1 and was wondering : - if an operations manual is available, online or as a copy. ( i only have the assembly manual, am willing to pay for the operation manual ) - any source for the plugins ( the plastic bits, R and C are not so much a problem ) ? - Is it just my impression, or is any problem I can tackle with an EC-1 much faster handled with a pocketcalculator or a slide rule? The wiring on my EC1 is lethal : i plan to mount a IEC socket so I can use regular modern-day earthed mains cable. Sacrilege or common sense ? Jos Dreesen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 17:19:11 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:19:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) In-Reply-To: <445D02C9.9040607@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at May 6, 6 10:10:49 pm Message-ID: > - Is it just my impression, or is any problem I can tackle with an EC-1 > much faster handled with a pocketcalculator or a slide rule? Quite liekly (remember that at the time the EC-1 was made, pocket calculators didn't exist!). Anyway, it was designed as an educational machine, to teach the principles of analogue computing. > The wiring on my EC1 is lethal : i plan to mount a IEC socket so I can > use regular modern-day earthed mains cable. Sacrilege or common sense ? Since I run my classic computers, I feel that any modifications for safety (either for me, or of the machine) should always be made. I alwas add earth wires, etc where I feel them to be appropriate. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 17:23:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:23:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at May 6, 6 11:46:50 am Message-ID: > > > > Could you provide a scan of this manual please!!!! > > The only chance you have of obtaining any printed document > from Tony is to pay him to go to a place that has a copier. Oh, I have a copier (for the moemnt, I think toner cartridges for it are now discontinued :-(. Great pity, I've kept that machine going for a lot longer than the makers intented with string and sealing wax (almost literally).). I also have a lot of other things to do (many of them classic-computer related), rather than standing in front of the copier for a couple of days... > > I don't think anyone has ever been able to successfully > have this happen, though. And how do you think the diagrams got onto the HPCC scheamtics CD, and thence to the Australian HP museum? (I made copies of them after drawing them out, gave them to a friend in HPCC who scanned them and burns the CD. Problem is, he'll only do this, in general, for HP calculator related stuff). You know I am this close (fx : indicates 1 picometre) to simply not mentioning I have a particular manual and posting information from it. People with 9448s in future may well not get useful tips from the service manual -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 6 18:46:54 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 16:46:54 -0700 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 Message-ID: <957B3102-5FCC-42C6-B3CA-D2226DBD5876@bitsavers.org> > gave them to a friend in HPCC who scanned them and burns the CD. And after going around with you about this for six months it was established that this was the ONLY way to get copies of your drawings. After examining the results of his work, I would suggest that your friend should learn how to CORRECTLY scan hand-drawn line art. I will not make the mistake of buying later versions of his disc and should have known better from seeing what he had done to your drawings on the earlier version of the CD-R. From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 6 18:10:36 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 19:10:36 -0400 Subject: stuff! Message-ID: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> I went to see this guy today who had a bunch of stuff he wanted to get rid of, and I was looking for scrap. It occurs to me that some of this may perhaps be of some interest... - An assembly that's marked "Mod. A33", it appears to contain a floppy drive (the button is marked 1.44) and there's a square pushbutton and a smaller recessed button (reset?), a liquid crystal display, and a keyswitch. I have two of these. - A tape drive (?) marked "Exabyte Corporation" and "Model HH CTS", I probabl have more than one of these. Pushing open the tape door shows a head in there that bears a slight resemblance to a video head, but smaller. It's got some kind of rails on it and a (single) connector on the back that I dno't recognize, probably for some IBM system. The drive appears to have standard 4-pin power and pin header (50-pin?) going to this. - Printers. I have an Oki 184 that was never removed from the wrapping in the box. Also available to me are going to be some other models, 3?? Oki as well. If you need to print multipart forms these are real workhorses. - Terminals. Since there's been a bunch of talk in here about terminals lately. these I didn't snag today (the car was filled up! :-) but there will be some quantity of Wyse 325 Color and 60 Monochrome terminals, all working I'm told. If there is interest let me know, otherwise these are all going to be scrapped for parts. - "Cooling unit", this is marked "model 052C" and all I can see are a couple of fans and a connector on the other end, appears to be for some kind of IBM racks, I have two of these. - Power supplies, "Lucent Technology C5892B", I have two of these as well. - "Webramp 700", apparently complete with all sorts of stuff in the box. - A docking station and external floppy drive, marked "Toshiba 430", which also has a pile of original software on floppies in the box which appears to include w95. - A box that was "sealed by IBM" until I opened it and apparently containing a "7137 Disk Array Subsystem", complete and certified and such, with some paperwork in a loose-leaf binder, I didn't unpack it any further than that. - Power aupplies and drive assemblies for "IBM 7133 HD Rack Assy" and also the racks, if there's any interest. I believe there is some large number of these, but I haven't had the chance to count things up yet. There's a lot more, and this is going to take multiple more trips for me to end up with all of this stuff before I'll know what I have. If any of it is of interest, please let me know offlist and we'll figure something out. If I don't hear from anybody, I'm just going to get what I can that's usable parts out if it and the rest is history. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 6 19:21:31 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 20:21:31 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200605062021.31712.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 06 May 2006 07:10 pm, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > - Power aupplies and drive assemblies for "IBM 7133 HD Rack Assy" and also > the racks, if there's any interest. I believe there is some large number > of these, but I haven't had the chance to count things up yet. Followup on those -- I took one and opened up the enclosure. There is a hard drive in there, but it has a connector that bears no resemblance to anything that I've ever seen before. The 96-pin (?) connector that the unit plugs into the rack with is also unfamiliar to me. Unless there's some way I can interface this to some more standard hardware here I suspect that they're going to be of very little use to me, and yield very little in the way of useful hardware. :-( Anybody know what these things are? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 6 19:51:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 17:51:09 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200605061751090571.16776B6F@10.0.0.252> On 5/6/2006 at 7:10 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >- An assembly that's marked "Mod. A33", it appears to contain a floppy >drive >(the button is marked 1.44) and there's a square pushbutton and a smaller >recessed button (reset?), a liquid crystal display, and a keyswitch. I >have two of these. Something rings a bell abou this one, but I can't think of what it might be. Anything inside of the box? >- A tape drive (?) marked "Exabyte Corporation" and "Model HH CTS", I >probabl have more than one of these. Pushing open the tape door shows a head in >there that bears a slight resemblance to a video head, but smaller. Most likely an 8 mm drive (since this is what Exabyte specialized in). The connection's SCSI and pretty standard. You can use 8 mm videocam carts in these (in spite of what Exabyte said). Capacity ranged from 2-8 GB, depending on model. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 6 19:52:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 19:52:14 -0500 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) References: <445D02C9.9040607@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <005601c67170$7cecd710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote.... > - Is it just my impression, or is any problem I can tackle with an EC-1 > much faster handled with a pocketcalculator or a slide rule? Your impression is correct. However, faster is not always as elegant. > The wiring on my EC1 is lethal : i plan to mount a IEC socket so I can use > regular modern-day earthed mains cable. Sacrilege or common sense ? Utter sacrilege. Can you build some type of pigtail cable instead? By the way... a day or two ago, I came across an EC-1 on ebay that was labled in such a way that I doubt people would find it with searches. Don't remember how. At least, I seem to recall that is what I saw.... Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 6 19:59:44 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 20:59:44 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605062021.31712.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062021.31712.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200605062059.44972.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 06 May 2006 20:21, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 06 May 2006 07:10 pm, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > - Power aupplies and drive assemblies for "IBM 7133 HD Rack Assy" and > > also the racks, if there's any interest. I believe there is some large > > number of these, but I haven't had the chance to count things up yet. > > Followup on those -- I took one and opened up the enclosure. There is a > hard drive in there, but it has a connector that bears no resemblance to > anything that I've ever seen before. The 96-pin (?) connector that the > unit plugs into the rack with is also unfamiliar to me. Unless there's > some way I can interface this to some more standard hardware here I suspect > that they're going to be of very little use to me, and yield very little > in the way of useful hardware. :-( > > Anybody know what these things are? It's an IBM SSA disk enclosure - SSA was IBM's pre-fiberchannel "fiberchannel." Potentially useful to people with RS/6000s, AS/400s, or some S/390 gear that uses them. These shouldn't be confused with Sun's SSA, which was also a pre-fiberchannel fiber attached storage, but which was otherwise completely different... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 6 20:04:21 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 18:04:21 -0700 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) In-Reply-To: <445D02C9.9040607@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: Hi I've seen several sites that offer Heathkit manuals. Some of them originals. The EC-1 is good for doing linear differential equations ( converted into integral equations ). It does lack the ability to multiply two analog levels. All scaling is done with fixed or adjustable resistors. The operators manual has little in it other than simple examples of adding signal together and integrating with capacitors. It does have an interesting simulation at the end. It is a bouncing ball simulation. Such things as gravity, bounce lose and air friction can be fiddled with. It does require an external source for a sine/cosine source to create the ball on a scope. One could create a sine/cosine source with two op-amps but the ball simulation requires all but one of the EC-1's op-amps. A while back, I wrote down a solution that reduced the number of needed op-amps by one. This frees up the needed extra op-amp to do the oscillator. I put the schematic some place but I believe most anyone could figure it out with a little thought. One thing to be aware of is the offset adjustments. When using the op-amps for gain and inverter, you adjust it slightly different than what you'd do for integrators. In one case you are balancing offset voltage and the other offset current. The original used the half the clear plastic connectors that used to be used to connect 300 twin lead. RS used to carry these years ago but I've not seen any anywhere. These had the right spacing to work with the crystal sockets used on the front of the EC-1. I've fount that the mini-banana connectors that Pamona has ( see their web page ). Of course, they are a source for the needed standard size banana jumper cables. These are not cheap but they do have them. I think Doug Coward's site does have the schematic for the bouncing ball simulation. That is the most important part of the operators manual( I think it is still someplace ). Dwight >From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > >Just kidding about the disk of course . > >But I now have a mint condition EC-1 and was wondering : > >- if an operations manual is available, online or as a copy. > ( i only have the assembly manual, am willing to pay for the >operation manual ) > >- any source for the plugins ( the plastic bits, R and C are not so much a >problem ) ? > >- Is it just my impression, or is any problem I can tackle with an EC-1 >much faster handled with a pocketcalculator or a slide rule? > > > >The wiring on my EC1 is lethal : i plan to mount a IEC socket so I can use >regular modern-day earthed mains cable. Sacrilege or common sense ? > > > Jos Dreesen From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 6 20:44:34 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 18:44:34 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605061751090571.16776B6F@10.0.0.252> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605061751090571.16776B6F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <445D5102.40803@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/6/2006 at 7:10 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> - An assembly that's marked "Mod. A33", it appears to contain a floppy >> drive >> (the button is marked 1.44) and there's a square pushbutton and a smaller >> recessed button (reset?), a liquid crystal display, and a keyswitch. I >> have two of these. > > Something rings a bell abou this one, but I can't think of what it might > be. Anything inside of the box? > >> - A tape drive (?) marked "Exabyte Corporation" and "Model HH CTS", I >> probabl have more than one of these. Pushing open the tape door shows a > head in >> there that bears a slight resemblance to a video head, but smaller. > > Most likely an 8 mm drive (since this is what Exabyte specialized in). The > connection's SCSI and pretty standard. You can use 8 mm videocam carts in > these (in spite of what Exabyte said). Capacity ranged from 2-8 GB, > depending on model. I have a 20GB (40GB compressed) Exabyte here. Not sure how true the "video tape" option is for higher densities... :-( From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 6 20:42:21 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 18:42:21 -0700 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <200605061842210538.1F61BF48@192.168.42.129> This message is being posted to three groups: Classiccmp, TekScopes, and TestGear. I have available, FREE for LOCAL PICKUP ONLY in Kent, Washington, a nice 3-foot fully-enclosed 19" equipment rack made for HP. It has the maroon-colored 'Hewlett Packard SYSTEMS' logo plate on the front, so I'm assuming it once held stuff relating to the HP System 9xxx series. The thing's on wheels, so it is relatively easy to move. However, you will need at least an SUV or pickup truck to comfortably transport it. I was using it as a computing test stand for many moons, and it is now no longer needed due to equipment consolidation. I'll even throw in a free rack-mounted dot-matrix printer with it (I believe it emulates an Epson FX80 or similar). The FIRST PERSON to drop me an E-mail saying "Yes, I want it! Where do I find you and when can I pick it up?" will get the thing. I will post a note once it is claimed. I'm crunched for storage space, so I need to move it out AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! Please help me to give this nice bit of electronics furniture a good home. If I do not receive any responses by this time Sunday evening (May 7th, 18:40 PDT), I will assume no one wants it and will leave it out in our driveway with a 'FREE!' sign on it (weather permitting -- I'm not going to let it get soaked). Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 6 21:01:13 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 22:01:13 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605061751090571.16776B6F@10.0.0.252> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605061751090571.16776B6F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605062201.14016.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 06 May 2006 08:51 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/6/2006 at 7:10 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >- An assembly that's marked "Mod. A33", it appears to contain a floppy > >drive (the button is marked 1.44) and there's a square pushbutton and a > > smaller recessed button (reset?), a liquid crystal display, and a > > keyswitch. I have two of these. > > Something rings a bell abou this one, but I can't think of what it might > be. Anything inside of the box? I haven't opened it up yet. (Popping cover...) Ah, that's why they had that sticker about the lithium battery, there's a board with what appears to be roughly a AA-sized 3V lithium battery in a holder in there, one squarish chip in a socket with "5.2" on a sticker on it, and a bunch of other surface-mount parts. There's a ribbon cable going off that board to the floppy, both to the standard pin connector _and_ to the power connector, and another one that goes to stuff on that front panel (I can't see where exactly because the floppy drive is in the way). The box is roughly L-shaped with the short side of the L being the "front panel" and the part that extends most to the rear being less tall. The extreme rear has some odd multipin connector showing that's attached to the little board, looks like 34 holes by 3 rows (unless I mis-counted there). > >- A tape drive (?) marked "Exabyte Corporation" and "Model HH CTS", I > >probabl have more than one of these. Pushing open the tape door shows a > > head in there that bears a slight resemblance to a video head, but > > smaller. > > Most likely an 8 mm drive (since this is what Exabyte specialized in). The > connection's SCSI and pretty standard. You can use 8 mm videocam carts in > these (in spite of what Exabyte said). Capacity ranged from 2-8 GB, > depending on model. I know that he said something about 20G (?) on some of the drives that he was talking about there. Even 2-8G wouldn't be too shabby, way better than any other tapes I have here and beats the heck out of cdrom. Oh, and one other thing I forgot to mention in the first post, he also mentioned "DSUs, routers, and Frame Relay stuff for point-to-point connections" if any of that is of interest to any of you guys... All of this stuff is working, supposedly pulled from service or a part of a backup for a whole computer setup that's now been taken out of service. He said something about 8 years ago they spent over $200,000 on this stuff and now it's worth next to nothing. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 6 21:02:24 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 22:02:24 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605062059.44972.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062021.31712.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062059.44972.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200605062202.24392.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 06 May 2006 08:59 pm, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Saturday 06 May 2006 20:21, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Saturday 06 May 2006 07:10 pm, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > - Power aupplies and drive assemblies for "IBM 7133 HD Rack Assy" and > > > also the racks, if there's any interest. I believe there is some > > > large number of these, but I haven't had the chance to count things up > > > yet. > > > > Followup on those -- I took one and opened up the enclosure. There is a > > hard drive in there, but it has a connector that bears no resemblance to > > anything that I've ever seen before. The 96-pin (?) connector that the > > unit plugs into the rack with is also unfamiliar to me. Unless there's > > some way I can interface this to some more standard hardware here I > > suspect that they're going to be of very little use to me, and yield > > very little in the way of useful hardware. :-( > > > > Anybody know what these things are? > > It's an IBM SSA disk enclosure - SSA was IBM's pre-fiberchannel > "fiberchannel." Potentially useful to people with RS/6000s, AS/400s, or > some S/390 gear that uses them. Well, I'm glad that somebody knows what they are, and if anybody wants some of this stuff feel free to contact me offlist... > These shouldn't be confused with Sun's SSA, which was also a > pre-fiberchannel fiber attached storage, but which was otherwise completely > different... > > Pat -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 6 22:05:11 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 22:05:11 Subject: Anybody here famialr with a Winchester Systems Flashdisk RAID system? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060506220511.3f3f1938@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found one of these today and picked it up. It clearly says the model is "FlashDisk" but it uses standard SCSI drives (10ea Seagate ST336704LCs specs at ). I searched the net and found plenty of talk about it but no details and all the talk seems to be about Flash memory emulating disk drives. What's the story here? Joe From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 6 21:03:26 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 22:03:26 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <445D5102.40803@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605061751090571.16776B6F@10.0.0.252> <445D5102.40803@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605062203.26787.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 06 May 2006 09:44 pm, Don Y wrote: > >> - A tape drive (?) marked "Exabyte Corporation" and "Model HH CTS", I > >> probabl have more than one of these. Pushing open the tape door shows a > >> head in there that bears a slight resemblance to a video head, but > >> smaller. > > > > Most likely an 8 mm drive (since this is what Exabyte specialized in). > > The connection's SCSI and pretty standard. You can use 8 mm videocam > > carts in these (in spite of what Exabyte said). Capacity ranged from 2-8 > > GB, depending on model. > > I have a 20GB (40GB compressed) Exabyte here. Not sure how > true the "video tape" option is for higher densities... :-( I believe that the guy mentioned "20GB" in our conversations. What sort of tapes would that things use? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 6 22:22:48 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 22:22:48 Subject: Anybody here familar with a Winchester Systems Flashdisk RAID system? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060506220511.3f3f1938@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060506222248.4b0f2174@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I finally gave up searching the net for information and sent to E-bay and sure enough they had one! . The one there doesn't have any drives in it but it looks almost* the same as the one that I have. Still it doesn't tell me much so if anybody knows anything about these let me know. *The one one E-bay only has two channels and mine has four. Also mine has a serial port where the one on E-bay has some kind of small blue box. Joe At 10:05 PM 5/6/06 +0000, you wrote: > I found one of these today and picked it up. It clearly says the model is >"FlashDisk" but it uses standard SCSI drives (10ea Seagate ST336704LCs >specs at >). I searched the net and found plenty of talk about it but no details and >all the talk seems to be about Flash memory emulating disk drives. What's >the story here? > > Joe > From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 6 22:03:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 20:03:49 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605062203.26787.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605061751090571.16776B6F@10.0.0.252> <445D5102.40803@DakotaCom.Net> <200605062203.26787.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200605062003490403.16F0DEFA@10.0.0.252> On 5/6/2006 at 10:03 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I believe that the guy mentioned "20GB" in our conversations. What sort >of >tapes would that things use? Your basic 112m 8mm "D8" data storage tape. Sony QG-112M, Imation D8-112, any number of brands. Or try an 8mm videocam tape. My 2-8 GB figure was based on when Exabyte first came out with these things (I've got one complete with an LCD display that tells how much tape is remaining!). Later revisions bumped the capacity. The commercial-grade Exabyte stuff wasn't bad, but the cost-reduced mass-market retail stuff was pure garbage. Better than DAT, not as good as DLT, IMOHO. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 6 21:27:22 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 19:27:22 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605062203.26787.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605061751090571.16776B6F@10.0.0.252> <445D5102.40803@DakotaCom.Net> <200605062203.26787.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <445D5B0A.4050406@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 06 May 2006 09:44 pm, Don Y wrote: >>>> - A tape drive (?) marked "Exabyte Corporation" and "Model HH CTS", I >>>> probabl have more than one of these. Pushing open the tape door shows a >>>> head in there that bears a slight resemblance to a video head, but >>>> smaller. >>> Most likely an 8 mm drive (since this is what Exabyte specialized in). >>> The connection's SCSI and pretty standard. You can use 8 mm videocam >>> carts in these (in spite of what Exabyte said). Capacity ranged from 2-8 >>> GB, depending on model. >> I have a 20GB (40GB compressed) Exabyte here. Not sure how >> true the "video tape" option is for higher densities... :-( > > I believe that the guy mentioned "20GB" in our conversations. What sort of > tapes would that things use? If it is an Exabyte, they are most likely 8mm (as Chuck> said). Roughly 1/2" thick (cartridge) by 2" x 3". My tapes claim "exabyte recognition systems" which I assume is just something that tells the drive what (ahem) capacity the tape is. Note other types of drives also support 20G (and MUCH higher) densities (DLT, SDLT, etc.) but I assume (from your comments) that these are all exabytes. From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 6 22:06:16 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:06:16 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605062003490403.16F0DEFA@10.0.0.252> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062203.26787.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062003490403.16F0DEFA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605062306.16486.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 06 May 2006 11:03 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/6/2006 at 10:03 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >I believe that the guy mentioned "20GB" in our conversations. What sort > >of > >tapes would that things use? > > Your basic 112m 8mm "D8" data storage tape. Sony QG-112M, Imation D8-112, > any number of brands. Or try an 8mm videocam tape. My 2-8 GB figure was > based on when Exabyte first came out with these things (I've got one > complete with an LCD display that tells how much tape is remaining!). > Later revisions bumped the capacity. The commercial-grade Exabyte stuff > wasn't bad, but the cost-reduced mass-market retail stuff was pure garbage. > > > Better than DAT, not as good as DLT, IMOHO. I don't get the impression that this is at all "cost-reduced mass market stuff", here. This is all out of some big IBM system of some sort... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 6 22:09:48 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:09:48 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <445D5B0A.4050406@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062203.26787.rtellason@blazenet.net> <445D5B0A.4050406@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605062309.48323.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 06 May 2006 10:27 pm, Don Y wrote: > >> I have a 20GB (40GB compressed) Exabyte here. Not sure how > >> true the "video tape" option is for higher densities... :-( > > > > I believe that the guy mentioned "20GB" in our conversations. What sort > > of tapes would that things use? > > If it is an Exabyte, they are most likely 8mm (as Chuck> said). > Roughly 1/2" thick (cartridge) by 2" x 3". My tapes claim > "exabyte recognition systems" which I assume is just something > that tells the drive what (ahem) capacity the tape is. > > Note other types of drives also support 20G (and MUCH higher) > densities (DLT, SDLT, etc.) but I assume (from your comments) > that these are all exabytes. These two that I have immediately to hand, yeah. They appear to have the standar 4-pin power connector and a 50-pin SCSI connector that's tied by way of some very short cables to a hot-plug (?) setup via a little board on the back, it appears to be an 80-pin connector. That stuff is mounted to a rail of sorts that goes around the back and most of both sides. Looks like those hard drives are supposed to be hot-pluggable too, it's too bad they aren't standard drives inside of those modules, those I could have used, these things I can't see any way to use them unless I can figure out some way to hook up to the rack as a whole. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 6 22:25:20 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 20:25:20 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605062309.48323.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062203.26787.rtellason@blazenet.net> <445D5B0A.4050406@DakotaCom.Net> <200605062309.48323.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <445D68A0.4000908@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 06 May 2006 10:27 pm, Don Y wrote: >>>> I have a 20GB (40GB compressed) Exabyte here. Not sure how >>>> true the "video tape" option is for higher densities... :-( >>> I believe that the guy mentioned "20GB" in our conversations. What sort >>> of tapes would that things use? >> If it is an Exabyte, they are most likely 8mm (as Chuck> said). >> Roughly 1/2" thick (cartridge) by 2" x 3". My tapes claim >> "exabyte recognition systems" which I assume is just something >> that tells the drive what (ahem) capacity the tape is. >> >> Note other types of drives also support 20G (and MUCH higher) >> densities (DLT, SDLT, etc.) but I assume (from your comments) >> that these are all exabytes. > > These two that I have immediately to hand, yeah. They appear to have the > standar 4-pin power connector and a 50-pin SCSI connector that's tied by way > of some very short cables to a hot-plug (?) setup via a little board on the > back, it appears to be an 80-pin connector. That stuff is mounted to a rail > of sorts that goes around the back and most of both sides. The board is probably an SCA adapter. This, by itself, doesn't make the assembly "hot swappable" -- though hard to say without knowing what your adapter actually does... > Looks like those hard drives are supposed to be hot-pluggable too, it's too > bad they aren't standard drives inside of those modules, those I could have > used, these things I can't see any way to use them unless I can figure out > some way to hook up to the rack as a whole. Double check the drive connectors. Make sure they aren't *80* pins like the adapter on the tape drive. If so, they are all ScA drives and very commonly used. From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 6 22:34:05 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:34:05 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <445D68A0.4000908@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062309.48323.rtellason@blazenet.net> <445D68A0.4000908@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 06 May 2006 11:25 pm, Don Y wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Saturday 06 May 2006 10:27 pm, Don Y wrote: > >>>> I have a 20GB (40GB compressed) Exabyte here. Not sure how > >>>> true the "video tape" option is for higher densities... :-( > >>> > >>> I believe that the guy mentioned "20GB" in our conversations. What > >>> sort of tapes would that things use? > >> > >> If it is an Exabyte, they are most likely 8mm (as Chuck> said). > >> Roughly 1/2" thick (cartridge) by 2" x 3". My tapes claim > >> "exabyte recognition systems" which I assume is just something > >> that tells the drive what (ahem) capacity the tape is. > >> > >> Note other types of drives also support 20G (and MUCH higher) > >> densities (DLT, SDLT, etc.) but I assume (from your comments) > >> that these are all exabytes. > > > > These two that I have immediately to hand, yeah. They appear to have > > the standar 4-pin power connector and a 50-pin SCSI connector that's tied > > by way of some very short cables to a hot-plug (?) setup via a little > > board on the back, it appears to be an 80-pin connector. That stuff is > > mounted to a rail of sorts that goes around the back and most of both > > sides. > > The board is probably an SCA adapter. This, by itself, doesn't > make the assembly "hot swappable" -- though hard to say without > knowing what your adapter actually does... I've heard that acronym before in the past day or so, what's it stand for? > > Looks like those hard drives are supposed to be hot-pluggable too, it's > > too bad they aren't standard drives inside of those modules, those I > > could have used, these things I can't see any way to use them unless I > > can figure out some way to hook up to the rack as a whole. > > Double check the drive connectors. Make sure they aren't > *80* pins like the adapter on the tape drive. If so, > they are all ScA drives and very commonly used. Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by IBM Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- it's in four separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 pins wide, but double-sided, and with spaces in between them. The rest of what's in the plastic module is 3 LEDs on the "front panel" which are tied to a small board at that end of the module -- this has what appears to be a bunch of coils on it and assorted surface-mount parts, and a chip that's not packaged but under a blob of epoxy. Then at the back end of the module is another small board that contains a voltage regulator (LM317T), a couple of diodes, and some capacitors. And one chip with a sticker saying "Part No. 31H8183", plus the external connector, which is 3 rows of 24 holes each, though it's obvious looking at the inside of the connector that not all of those holes have contacts in them. This resembles nothing that I'm familiar with. And I have a *LOT* of these, two big boxes of them still sitting out in my car... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 6 22:58:57 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 20:58:57 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062309.48323.rtellason@blazenet.net> <445D68A0.4000908@DakotaCom.Net> <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <445D7081.8020506@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 06 May 2006 11:25 pm, Don Y wrote: >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> On Saturday 06 May 2006 10:27 pm, Don Y wrote: >>>>>> I have a 20GB (40GB compressed) Exabyte here. Not sure how >>>>>> true the "video tape" option is for higher densities... :-( >>>>> I believe that the guy mentioned "20GB" in our conversations. What >>>>> sort of tapes would that things use? >>>> If it is an Exabyte, they are most likely 8mm (as Chuck> said). >>>> Roughly 1/2" thick (cartridge) by 2" x 3". My tapes claim >>>> "exabyte recognition systems" which I assume is just something >>>> that tells the drive what (ahem) capacity the tape is. >>>> >>>> Note other types of drives also support 20G (and MUCH higher) >>>> densities (DLT, SDLT, etc.) but I assume (from your comments) >>>> that these are all exabytes. >>> These two that I have immediately to hand, yeah. They appear to have >>> the standar 4-pin power connector and a 50-pin SCSI connector that's tied >>> by way of some very short cables to a hot-plug (?) setup via a little >>> board on the back, it appears to be an 80-pin connector. That stuff is >>> mounted to a rail of sorts that goes around the back and most of both >>> sides. >> The board is probably an SCA adapter. This, by itself, doesn't >> make the assembly "hot swappable" -- though hard to say without >> knowing what your adapter actually does... > > I've heard that acronym before in the past day or so, what's it stand for? (roughly) Single Connector Attachment >>> Looks like those hard drives are supposed to be hot-pluggable too, it's >>> too bad they aren't standard drives inside of those modules, those I >>> could have used, these things I can't see any way to use them unless I >>> can figure out some way to hook up to the rack as a whole. >> Double check the drive connectors. Make sure they aren't >> *80* pins like the adapter on the tape drive. If so, >> they are all ScA drives and very commonly used. > > Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by IBM > Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- it's in four > separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 pins wide, but > double-sided, and with spaces in between them. The rest of what's in the > plastic module is 3 LEDs on the "front panel" which are tied to a small board > at that end of the module -- this has what appears to be a bunch of coils on > it and assorted surface-mount parts, and a chip that's not packaged but > under a blob of epoxy. Then at the back end of the module is another small > board that contains a voltage regulator (LM317T), a couple of diodes, and > some capacitors. And one chip with a sticker saying "Part No. 31H8183", > plus the external connector, which is 3 rows of 24 holes each, though it's > obvious looking at the inside of the connector that not all of those holes > have contacts in them. This resembles nothing that I'm familiar with. > > And I have a *LOT* of these, two big boxes of them still sitting out in my > car... Nothing that gives you a clue as to how big the drives are? (e.g., if they are 1G, probably not worth the time to sort it all out...) From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 6 23:13:06 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 00:13:06 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <445D7081.8020506@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> <445D7081.8020506@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605070013.06487.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 06 May 2006 11:58 pm, Don Y wrote: > >> The board is probably an SCA adapter. This, by itself, doesn't > >> make the assembly "hot swappable" -- though hard to say without > >> knowing what your adapter actually does... > > > > I've heard that acronym before in the past day or so, what's it stand > > for? > > (roughly) Single Connector Attachment Ah. Another thing that came up here in that box of stuff was a couple of IBM "Quad Speed" CDROM drives with the same 80-pin connectors on the back, also adaptable to removing some bits and using the standard 4-pin power and 50-pin SCSI cable... > >>> Looks like those hard drives are supposed to be hot-pluggable too, > >>> it's too bad they aren't standard drives inside of those modules, > >>> those I could have used, these things I can't see any way to use them > >>> unless I can figure out some way to hook up to the rack as a whole. > >> > >> Double check the drive connectors. Make sure they aren't > >> *80* pins like the adapter on the tape drive. If so, > >> they are all ScA drives and very commonly used. > > > > Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by IBM > > Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- it's in four > > separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 pins wide, but > > double-sided, and with spaces in between them. The rest of what's in > > the plastic module is 3 LEDs on the "front panel" which are tied to a > > small board at that end of the module -- this has what appears to be a > > bunch of coils on it and assorted surface-mount parts, and a chip that's > > not packaged but under a blob of epoxy. Then at the back end of the > > module is another small board that contains a voltage regulator (LM317T), > > a couple of diodes, and some capacitors. And one chip with a sticker > > saying "Part No. 31H8183", plus the external connector, which is 3 rows > > of 24 holes each, though it's obvious looking at the inside of the > > connector that not all of those holes have contacts in them. This > > resembles nothing that I'm familiar with. > > > > And I have a *LOT* of these, two big boxes of them still sitting out in > > my car... > > Nothing that gives you a clue as to how big the drives are? (e.g., if they > are 1G, probably not worth the time to sort it all out...) He mentioned a number that was decidedly bigger than that (but still under 10GB) and I can't recall what it is offhand. Somebody else wrote me offlist and asked for an FRU number which I passed along, perhaps that will give a clue. I just looked over the emails I'd exchanged with the guy I got the stuff from and he doesn't say in there, unfortunately. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun May 7 01:23:49 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 08:23:49 +0200 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) In-Reply-To: <005601c67170$7cecd710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <445D02C9.9040607@bluewin.ch> <005601c67170$7cecd710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <445D9275.3080600@bluewin.ch> > Utter sacrilege. Can you build some type of pigtail cable instead? As it looks like it will only get a couple of runtime hours, I will only make reversible changes. Operating it in its current state, with the unisolated centertaps from the transformers primary dangling around in a non-earthed chassis is a no-no. > > By the way... a day or two ago, I came across an EC-1 on ebay that was > labled in such a way that I doubt people would find it with searches. > Don't remember how. At least, I seem to recall that is what I saw.... > Mine came from an open-to-Switzerland-only Ebay equivalent. Jos Dreesen From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun May 7 10:24:21 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:24:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Early 1970s PDP stuff for sale Message-ID: <12101462.1147015462079.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I've decided to reclaim some of the space in my shop, so I've listed some of my excess items on eBay. If anyone is interested, go check it out under user wacarder. I have listed a PDP-8/E with DSD 440 drive and interface card, PDP-11/20, PDP-11/45, PDP-11/34a, an 11/50 front panel, an 11/45 front panel, an ASR-33, a Tektronix vector graphics terminal, some RK05 drives, literature and marketing brochures, and various other items. It was a tough decision to decide to sell these, but most of these are items that I will probably never get around to restoring. My shop had reached maximum capacity and I need the space to do other stuff. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 7 11:24:35 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 11:24:35 Subject: FA: Winchester Systems Flashdisk OpenRAID system In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060506222248.4b0f2174@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060506220511.3f3f1938@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060507112435.35e7af76@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Well I didn't get any replies about this device but what I've been able to figure out it looks like a hell of a drive system! But it doesn't look anything that I need so I've put it on E-bay. If anyone is interested in a FAST drive subsystem, check it out. Joe From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun May 7 12:33:26 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 10:33:26 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605070013.06487.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> <445D7081.8020506@DakotaCom.Net> <200605070013.06487.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <445E2F66.1030104@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 06 May 2006 11:58 pm, Don Y wrote: >>>> The board is probably an SCA adapter. This, by itself, doesn't >>>> make the assembly "hot swappable" -- though hard to say without >>>> knowing what your adapter actually does... >>> I've heard that acronym before in the past day or so, what's it stand >>> for? >> (roughly) Single Connector Attachment > > Ah. Another thing that came up here in that box of stuff was a couple of IBM > "Quad Speed" CDROM drives with the same 80-pin connectors on the back, also > adaptable to removing some bits and using the standard 4-pin power and 50-pin > SCSI cable... The SCA handles power, signals AND SCSI ID selection (i.e. the slot into which you plug the drive sets the SCSI ID) -- though in some cases, with adapters, you stll set the ID on the drive itself. Most peripherals (CD, etc.) are only 8b so don't benefit from the capabilities of the SCA (aside from being a single connection!) >>>>> Looks like those hard drives are supposed to be hot-pluggable too, >>>>> it's too bad they aren't standard drives inside of those modules, >>>>> those I could have used, these things I can't see any way to use them >>>>> unless I can figure out some way to hook up to the rack as a whole. >>>> Double check the drive connectors. Make sure they aren't >>>> *80* pins like the adapter on the tape drive. If so, >>>> they are all ScA drives and very commonly used. >>> Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by IBM >>> Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- it's in four >>> separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 pins wide, but >>> double-sided, and with spaces in between them. The rest of what's in >>> the plastic module is 3 LEDs on the "front panel" which are tied to a >>> small board at that end of the module -- this has what appears to be a >>> bunch of coils on it and assorted surface-mount parts, and a chip that's >>> not packaged but under a blob of epoxy. Then at the back end of the >>> module is another small board that contains a voltage regulator (LM317T), >>> a couple of diodes, and some capacitors. And one chip with a sticker >>> saying "Part No. 31H8183", plus the external connector, which is 3 rows >>> of 24 holes each, though it's obvious looking at the inside of the >>> connector that not all of those holes have contacts in them. This >>> resembles nothing that I'm familiar with. >>> >>> And I have a *LOT* of these, two big boxes of them still sitting out in >>> my car... >> Nothing that gives you a clue as to how big the drives are? (e.g., if they >> are 1G, probably not worth the time to sort it all out...) > > He mentioned a number that was decidedly bigger than that (but still under > 10GB) and I can't recall what it is offhand. Somebody else wrote me offlist > and asked for an FRU number which I passed along, perhaps that will give a > clue. I just looked over the emails I'd exchanged with the guy I got the > stuff from and he doesn't say in there, unfortunately. FRU number would have made much of this conversation moot! :> (not to be confused with Smoot!) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 7 12:50:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 12:50:33 -0500 Subject: HP 264x terminal deal Message-ID: <005301c671fe$bdd850e0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> >From people emailing me off-list, I had interest in about 20-25 terminals. So I went to the ebay seller to work a deal. Apparently there has been a two prong effect - 1) The first few terminals he sold on ebay went quickly and for high dollar, so he now suspects all 50 of them will go for that price.... and 2) many of the people who emailed me off-list about a group purchase apparently also emailed the ebay guy directly (and one of you bought one from him)... so suddenly he thinks there's a huge interest and is now less inclined to make a group purchase deal. So here's the result... I told the guy to go ahead and keep selling them one at a time on ebay, and as soon as he hits the inevitable point after 5 or 6 units that they suddenly stop selling because he's flooded the market, to give me a call. Then I'll ask again if there's interest in a group purchase, but the group will inevitably be much smaller. Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 12:36:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 18:36:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: <957B3102-5FCC-42C6-B3CA-D2226DBD5876@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at May 6, 6 04:46:54 pm Message-ID: > > > > gave them to a friend in HPCC who scanned them and burns the CD. > > And after going around with you about this for six months it was > established that this was the ONLY way to get copies of your drawings. No it isn't!. I know for a fact that Dave (the chap who makes the disks) has e-mailed out the odd small schematic to people. What he won't do (and I think this is entirely reasonable) is mail out either a schematic of say 100 pages, or the entire disk. If you want that much stuff, you can darn well buy the CD-ROM. I have also sent out photocopies of small schematics to people who can't use a CD-ROM. Again, I am not doing this for free for any of the larger ones, or the complete disk (IIRC there are getting on for 1000 pages on the disk now). And I've given permission for the diagrams to be hosted on certain web sites. What do you expect me to do? A special job for you where I send you copies of the entire collection on paper? An analogy : Most IC manufacturers will send you one or two data sheets free of charge. If you want the contents of an entire data book, they expect you to buy it (and I think that is 100% reasonable). Oh, in case you're wondering, this hss nothing to do with me not getting any payment if I don't sell a CD-ROM. I don't get paid anyway. I make _nothing_ from the sales of these disks, all the profits go to HPCC. > After examining the results of his work, I would suggest that your > friend should learn how to CORRECTLY scan hand-drawn line art. Would you kindly flame the correct person then. As you well know, I don't have a scanner, I don't have a PC with a graphical display. I know very little about graphics file formats. All I do is draw out the schemaitcs. > > I will not make the mistake of buying later versions of his disc > and should have known better from seeing what he had done to > your drawings on the earlier version of the CD-R. You will be the loser, not me. Personally, I feel any information is better than none, but that's up to you. You may not like the file format (and FWIW, I don't think it's a sensible choice to put it mildly), but the diagrams are readable (which is more than I can say for some other scanned manuals I've seen on the web). You basically can choose between : Having no information on the hardware of these machines at all (the official HP service manuals, when they exist at all, do not contain full schematics in most cases) ; Putting up with my diagrams and/or Dave's file format ; Getting the machine yourself, taking it apart, and producing your own schematics. In the last case, be warned that the diagrams for the 9845B + monitor total over 200 pages, and took me some 6 months to produce. Another analogy : I much prefer printed manuals to electronic versions, in fact I have no easy way to display the latter. If I need a particular manual, I have several choices : I can see if some company will sell me an original or copy (and then see if I think the price is worth paying) I can see if it's available on the web, if so, I can go to an internet cafe and view it there, maybe make notes by hand I could, I suppose, if I really needed it, buy a PC and printer, pay for broadband, and view/print it at home I can see if a friend of mine would be prepared to print a few pages if I agreed to pay for the toner + paper What I do not do is expect the people who run bitsavers, hpmuseum.net, etc to send me a printed version free of charge. Nor do I flame them for providing the manuals in a form that I can't easily use.I regard them as being a very useful resource (which I do use quite often, actually). -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 7 13:50:26 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 13:50:26 -0500 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 References: Message-ID: <005e01c67207$1c1c44b0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I am not sure I comprehend the entire situation behind this thread... so I'm not making an official request or anything... just asking a question in the role of just another listmember... Is this a discussion that should be handled off-list? Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 7 14:00:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 12:00:48 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062309.48323.rtellason@blazenet.net> <445D68A0.4000908@DakotaCom.Net> <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> On 5/6/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by IBM >Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- it's in four >separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 pins wide, but >double-sided, and with spaces in between them. I wonder if this might be some sort of SAS connector. I guess we'll find out eventually. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun May 7 15:21:15 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 16:21:15 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605071621.15162.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 07 May 2006 03:00 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/6/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by IBM > >Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- it's in four > >separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 pins wide, but > >double-sided, and with spaces in between them. > > I wonder if this might be some sort of SAS connector. I guess we'll find > out eventually. That's the internal connection to the drive itself, rather than the usual pin header that I was looking for, which is why my thoughts of opening these up and being able to use the drives turns out to be a dead end... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun May 7 15:38:41 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 13:38:41 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605071621.15162.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> <200605071621.15162.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <445E5AD1.1040000@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 07 May 2006 03:00 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 5/6/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by IBM >>> Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- it's in four >>> separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 pins wide, but >>> double-sided, and with spaces in between them. >> I wonder if this might be some sort of SAS connector. I guess we'll find >> out eventually. > > That's the internal connection to the drive itself, rather than the usual pin > header that I was looking for, which is why my thoughts of opening these up > and being able to use the drives turns out to be a dead end... If you have the "thing into which they fit", can't you use *that*, as an assembly, and talk TO it? From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun May 7 16:41:23 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 17:41:23 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <445E5AD1.1040000@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071621.15162.rtellason@blazenet.net> <445E5AD1.1040000@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605071741.23582.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 07 May 2006 04:38 pm, Don Y wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Sunday 07 May 2006 03:00 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 5/6/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >>> Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by > >>> IBM Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- it's in > >>> four separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 pins wide, > >>> but double-sided, and with spaces in between them. > >> > >> I wonder if this might be some sort of SAS connector. I guess we'll > >> find out eventually. > > > > That's the internal connection to the drive itself, rather than the > > usual pin header that I was looking for, which is why my thoughts of > > opening these up and being able to use the drives turns out to be a dead > > end... > > If you have the "thing into which they fit", can't you use > *that*, as an assembly, and talk TO it? That would be the bit that the guy described as "the rack", and no, I didn't get it this trip. The modules in question have a connector on the back of them that is apparently 3 rows of 24 (?) pins each, though it appears that not all of those holes have contacts in them when you look at the part of the connector that's inside the box. I also have a couple of power supplies that go with "the rack". Unfortunately that's probably designed for some IBM big iron setup and I'm not at all confident about being able to talk to it, though if you or anyone else has any suggestions I'm interested in hearing them... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun May 7 17:41:47 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 15:41:47 -0700 Subject: Rack claimed Message-ID: <200605071541470128.23E2D076@192.168.42.129> The short rack I advertised as a freebie this weekend has been claimed. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 7 18:03:33 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 19:03:33 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605071903.33840.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 07 May 2006 15:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/6/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by > > IBM Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- > > it's in four separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 > > pins wide, but double-sided, and with spaces in between them. > > I wonder if this might be some sort of SAS connector. I guess we'll > find out eventually. As I said in the thread yesterday, it's an IBM SSA disk connector. It's IBM's pre-fiberchannel "fiberchannel" - a serial link to connect a string of disks to a controller. They made MCA and PCI adapters for RS/6000s, as well as some AS/400 adapters (I think), and it was also used for storage in the Multiprise 2003 ("small" s/390 system; processor and DASD in a standard IBM S/390 rack). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From allain at panix.com Sun May 7 18:12:59 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 19:12:59 -0400 Subject: stuff! References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net><200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net><200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> <200605071903.33840.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <004901c6722b$c8a2a3e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > As I said in the thread yesterday, it's an IBM SSA disk connector. It's > IBM's pre-fiberchannel "fiberchannel" - a serial link to connect a > string of disks to a controller. They made MCA and PCI adapters for > RS/6000s, Could this possibly been a drive in an IBM RAID-via-HIPPI system back in 1994? The IBM started with a Maxim Strategy array, then moved to it's own for the PVS (Power Visualization System) product. John A. From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun May 7 18:18:52 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 19:18:52 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605071903.33840.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> <200605071903.33840.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200605071918.52176.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 07 May 2006 07:03 pm, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 07 May 2006 15:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5/6/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > >Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by > > > IBM Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- > > > it's in four separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 > > > pins wide, but double-sided, and with spaces in between them. > > > > I wonder if this might be some sort of SAS connector. I guess we'll > > find out eventually. > > As I said in the thread yesterday, it's an IBM SSA disk connector. It's > IBM's pre-fiberchannel "fiberchannel" - a serial link to connect a > string of disks to a controller. They made MCA and PCI adapters for > RS/6000s, as well as some AS/400 adapters (I think), and it was also > used for storage in the Multiprise 2003 ("small" s/390 system; > processor and DASD in a standard IBM S/390 rack). Actually I think you might have said something to that effect in an email to me but I don't think you said anything in here. A PCI card, huh? Hmm... :-) There might be some hope for these things after all. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sun May 7 19:17:09 2006 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 20:17:09 -0400 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 Message-ID: <20060508001709.BC8F7201C565@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Al Kossow wrote: (talking about Tony Duell's circuit diagrams) > After examining the results of his work, I would suggest that your > friend should learn how to CORRECTLY scan hand-drawn line art. > > I will not make the mistake of buying later versions of his disc What's wrong with them? Do you object to them being hand drawn? I have used the 9915A and 9825A schematics when repairing my 9915B and my 9825A (ongoing), and they are clear, correct, and readable [1]. Look, Tony is doing a service to the community, *and* he is not making money out of this, so bitching about his insistence on doing things his way is counter productive both for you and for the rest of us. Personally, I would like to thank Tony for his efforts and contributions to this forum. **vp [1] in fact the 9915 schematics are much more readable than the HP supplied diagrams for the HP-85 (which has many similarities to the 9915). In fact any time there was disagreement between the HP prints and Tony's, the hardware agreed with Tony's drawings. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 7 19:25:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 17:25:37 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605071918.52176.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> <200605071903.33840.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200605071918.52176.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200605071725370462.1B8662E3@10.0.0.252> On 5/7/2006 at 7:18 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Actually I think you might have said something to that effect in an email >to me but I don't think you said anything in here. The list never got the email. Ah, well, at least I had the serial part right. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun May 7 20:39:40 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 18:39:40 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605071903.33840.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605062334.05333.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071200480959.1A5D02B6@10.0.0.252> <200605071903.33840.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <445EA15C.1010808@DakotaCom.Net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 07 May 2006 15:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 5/6/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in Singapore by >>> IBM Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've ever seen -- >>> it's in four separate little sections, which are 3, 3, 4, and 8 >>> pins wide, but double-sided, and with spaces in between them. >> I wonder if this might be some sort of SAS connector. I guess we'll >> find out eventually. > > As I said in the thread yesterday, it's an IBM SSA disk connector. It's > IBM's pre-fiberchannel "fiberchannel" - a serial link to connect a > string of disks to a controller. They made MCA and PCI adapters for > RS/6000s, as well as some AS/400 adapters (I think), and it was also > used for storage in the Multiprise 2003 ("small" s/390 system; > processor and DASD in a standard IBM S/390 rack). Why so many *pins* (conductors)? I think the OP indicated 3 rows of 24 pins (?) Unless there are 20 for each *supply*, that sounds like an awful lot for a serial device... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 20:37:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 02:37:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: <20060508001709.BC8F7201C565@mail.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at May 7, 6 08:17:09 pm Message-ID: > > > Al Kossow wrote: > (talking about Tony Duell's circuit diagrams) > > After examining the results of his work, I would suggest that your > > friend should learn how to CORRECTLY scan hand-drawn line art. > > > > I will not make the mistake of buying later versions of his disc > > What's wrong with them? Do you object to them being hand drawn? I think he objects to the file format (jpeg?) used. I am pretty sure it's not the best choice _but_ I didn't choose it. > I have used the 9915A and 9825A schematics when repairing my 9915B and > my 9825A (ongoing), and they are clear, correct, and readable [1]. > > Look, Tony is doing a service to the community, *and* he is not making > money out of this, so bitching about his insistence on doing things his > way is counter productive both for you and for the rest of us. Thank you. I am glad somebody finds this work useful. > [1] in fact the 9915 schematics are much more readable than the HP > supplied diagrams for the HP-85 (which has many similarities to the I have seen _many_ examples of scanned manuals on the web where the schematics are unreadable. I am not sure if this is due to the originals being a poor-qulaity copy, or due to the scanning process, or what. In some cases there are bits missing when an A3 page is scanned as 2 A4 pages (If I am _copying_ such a page, I always check, and if necessary make a 3rd copy containing the overlap. > 9915). In fact any time there was disagreement between the HP prints > and Tony's, the hardware agreed with Tony's drawings. None-the-less, I would be very suprised if there were no more errors in these diagrams (I have found some already, I do of course correct them in the next version of the disk). If you come across something that disagrees with the hardware, I would appreciate a (polite) comment. Either I have made a mistake (very likely!) or there's another version of the board that I've not seen. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 7 20:43:19 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 21:43:19 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605071918.52176.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071903.33840.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200605071918.52176.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200605072143.19464.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 07 May 2006 19:18, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 07 May 2006 07:03 pm, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Sunday 07 May 2006 15:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 5/6/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > >Oh, these drives are definitely very strange. Made in > > > > Singapore by IBM Singapore, the connector is like nothing I've > > > > ever seen -- it's in four separate little sections, which are > > > > 3, 3, 4, and 8 pins wide, but double-sided, and with spaces > > > > in between them. > > > > > > I wonder if this might be some sort of SAS connector. I guess > > > we'll find out eventually. > > > > As I said in the thread yesterday, it's an IBM SSA disk connector. > > It's IBM's pre-fiberchannel "fiberchannel" - a serial link to > > connect a string of disks to a controller. They made MCA and PCI > > adapters for RS/6000s, as well as some AS/400 adapters (I think), > > and it was also used for storage in the Multiprise 2003 ("small" > > s/390 system; processor and DASD in a standard IBM S/390 rack). > > Actually I think you might have said something to that effect in an > email to me but I don't think you said anything in here. > > A PCI card, huh? Hmm... :-) > > There might be some hope for these things after all. I've got 4 of the cards, and probably could be persuaded to get rid of a couple of them, as I have no SSA disks (and I'm not sure I really want any either). BTW, you'll probably need to be running AIX or maybe OS/400 in order to make use of the card - I doubt there's drivers for anything else. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 7 20:45:04 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 21:45:04 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605071725370462.1B8662E3@10.0.0.252> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071918.52176.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071725370462.1B8662E3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605072145.04912.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 07 May 2006 20:25, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/7/2006 at 7:18 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Actually I think you might have said something to that effect in an > > email to me but I don't think you said anything in here. > > The list never got the email. Ah, well, at least I had the serial > part right. Did this message not make it to the list? ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: stuff! Date: Saturday 06 May 2006 20:59 From: Patrick Finnegan To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" On Saturday 06 May 2006 20:21, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 06 May 2006 07:10 pm, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > - Power aupplies and drive assemblies for "IBM 7133 HD Rack Assy" > > and also the racks, if there's any interest. I believe there is > > some large number of these, but I haven't had the chance to count > > things up yet. > > Followup on those -- I took one and opened up the enclosure. There > is a hard drive in there, but it has a connector that bears no > resemblance to anything that I've ever seen before. The 96-pin (?) > connector that the unit plugs into the rack with is also unfamiliar > to me. Unless there's some way I can interface this to some more > standard hardware here I suspect that they're going to be of very > little use to me, and yield very little in the way of useful > hardware. :-( > > Anybody know what these things are? It's an IBM SSA disk enclosure - SSA was IBM's pre-fiberchannel "fiberchannel." Potentially useful to people with RS/6000s, AS/400s, or some S/390 gear that uses them. These shouldn't be confused with Sun's SSA, which was also a pre-fiberchannel fiber attached storage, but which was otherwise completely different... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org ------------------------------------------------------- -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From evan at snarc.net Sun May 7 21:17:14 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 22:17:14 -0400 Subject: Egads! Just six days 'til VCF. Message-ID: <002101c67245$8592ad10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hey folks. I'm going to be at the VCF East location as of early Friday morning. I expect the exhibitors to start trickling in throughout the afternoon. Anyone who intends to show up as a volunteer will certainly be put to good use! All the show details are on Sellam's site at http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/ ... Since this is the first time I'm running a big event, I gaurantee there will be some mistakes made. Hopefully they'll be minimal. Whatever they may be, please just try to have fun.... Having said that, if anyone's coming from out-of-town, then just ping me (or post to the VCF BBS page or post on our local list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/)... The best part of a VCF isn't the computers, it's seeing your fellow collectors. Also, we some cool prizes. The top prizes are a Replica 1 (Apple 1) kit from Briel Computers, and a Digi-Comp replica kit as well. Both are exciting so we'll let the best-of-show winner choose one and we'll give the other to a random attendee based on picking a ticket number from a hat. - Evan PS - some people are asking me what happened to the CCN - it'll return with a revamped web site and a different format in May. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun May 7 22:15:01 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 22:15:01 -0500 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605072143.19464.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071903.33840.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200605071918.52176.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605072143.19464.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <445EB7B5.2080301@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got 4 of the cards, and probably could be persuaded to get rid of a > couple of them, as I have no SSA disks (and I'm not sure I really want > any either). > > BTW, you'll probably need to be running AIX or maybe OS/400 in order to > make use of the card - I doubt there's drivers for anything else. There are drivers for NT4 at least, and maybe W2k for some of the PCI SSA adapters. A quick Googling didn't come up with the list, but at least some of them worked in both AIX and Windows. Doc From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 7 22:27:07 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 23:27:07 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <445EB7B5.2080301@mdrconsult.com> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605072143.19464.pat@computer-refuge.org> <445EB7B5.2080301@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200605072327.07933.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 07 May 2006 23:15, Doc Shipley wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I've got 4 of the cards, and probably could be persuaded to get rid > > of a couple of them, as I have no SSA disks (and I'm not sure I > > really want any either). > > > > BTW, you'll probably need to be running AIX or maybe OS/400 in > > order to make use of the card - I doubt there's drivers for > > anything else. > > There are drivers for NT4 at least, and maybe W2k for some of the > PCI SSA adapters. A quick Googling didn't come up with the list, but > at least some of them worked in both AIX and Windows. It'd be nice if there were Linux drivers, as IBM seems to be embracing Linux now-a-days (though only for *new* stuff, not older stuff.. sigh). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun May 7 22:48:36 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 23:48:36 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605072143.19464.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071918.52176.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605072143.19464.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200605072348.37029.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 07 May 2006 09:43 pm, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > A PCI card, huh? Hmm... :-) > > > > There might be some hope for these things after all. > > I've got 4 of the cards, and probably could be persuaded to get rid of a > couple of them, as I have no SSA disks (and I'm not sure I really want > any either). > > BTW, you'll probably need to be running AIX or maybe OS/400 in order to > make use of the card - I doubt there's drivers for anything else. I believe that the system these were in ran AIX, but no drivers? That would be a real PITA, if it turned out that way... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun May 7 22:50:31 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 23:50:31 -0400 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605072327.07933.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <445EB7B5.2080301@mdrconsult.com> <200605072327.07933.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200605072350.31907.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 07 May 2006 11:27 pm, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 07 May 2006 23:15, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > I've got 4 of the cards, and probably could be persuaded to get rid > > > of a couple of them, as I have no SSA disks (and I'm not sure I > > > really want any either). > > > > > > BTW, you'll probably need to be running AIX or maybe OS/400 in > > > order to make use of the card - I doubt there's drivers for > > > anything else. > > > > There are drivers for NT4 at least, and maybe W2k for some of the > > PCI SSA adapters. A quick Googling didn't come up with the list, but > > at least some of them worked in both AIX and Windows. > > It'd be nice if there were Linux drivers, as IBM seems to be embracing > Linux now-a-days (though only for *new* stuff, not older stuff.. sigh). Yeah, that would be nice... I suppose at worst there's that ndiswrapper thingy, if my understanding of it is correct. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 8 00:27:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 23:27:34 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4041R03 Signal Processing Programmer's Reference Guide (Feb 1984) online Message-ID: Now online... the form factor is a quick reference type booklet. or -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From Tim at Rikers.org Mon May 8 00:44:31 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 23:44:31 -0600 Subject: 2645A terminals In-Reply-To: <000401c66cc9$92f9d270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000401c66cc9$92f9d270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <445EDABF.8080809@Rikers.org> Jay: any update on a bulk purchase? -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Tim at Rikers.org Mon May 8 01:05:25 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 00:05:25 -0600 Subject: DEC mark sense "punched" cards In-Reply-To: References: <200605052027.k45KR3106847@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <445EDFA5.2070700@Rikers.org> John A. Dundas III wrote: > I have good resolution scans of the Basic card at: > > Nice. Do you have a scan of an HP TSB card? I recall they were pink like the DEC eduSystem with black alignment marks too. I think Jay has some. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 8 02:36:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 00:36:47 -0700 Subject: stuff! In-Reply-To: <200605072145.04912.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605061910.36946.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071918.52176.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200605071725370462.1B8662E3@10.0.0.252> <200605072145.04912.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200605080036470806.1D11214C@10.0.0.252> On 5/7/2006 at 9:45 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >Did this message not make it to the list? That's odd--I didn't find it either in my active messages or my wastebasket. Maybe my spam filter saw something it didn't like... Cheers, Chuck From asholz at topinform.de Mon May 8 03:56:32 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 10:56:32 +0200 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: <445B1776.2090204@topinform.de> References: <445B1776.2090204@topinform.de> Message-ID: <445F07C0.5030308@topinform.de> If this would help, I would pay some bucks for the copy and the postage to send the copies to Al Kossow (If Al would like to get the copies to be scanned for bitsavers.org). Andreas > Tony Duell schrieb: >>> I'm going to move an old Honeywell DPS6, working. >>> I've in mind to park the heads of the disk ... but how ? >>> The disk unit is from Magnetic Peripherals , model 9448 >>> Internal parts are from CDC , the only code present is BJ7D1-A >>> Anyone know this unit/system ? >>> >> >> I have the CDC9448 service manual in front of me. I believe this is >> what was called a 'Phoenix' drive >> > Could you provide a scan of this manual please!!!! > > Andreas > > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 8 07:49:20 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 08:49:20 -0400 Subject: Write-only archives (was: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6) Message-ID: Jay wrote, after a few bandishments back-and-forth on the "Parking heads" thread: > I am not sure I comprehend the entire > situation behind this thread... so I'm > not making an official request or anything... > just asking a question in the > role of just another listmember... Is this > a discussion that should be > handled off-list? I think that more usefully we could all begin complaining about what we don't like about "write-only" archives. I'm not talking purely about "black-hole" perceptions (e.g. you send it in but nothing ever comes out) but also about a lack of concern for web access, formats friendly to OCR'ing and searchability, etc. Similarly those who scan out-of-date documentation (computers, test equipment, whatever) and sell it on E-bay have a very strong interest in making their archives be poorly searchable and megabyte- large. Recently there's been wars about scanning and downloading old semiconductor datasheets among commercial and semi-commercial entities that want to sell access to that data. I'm not saying that there's no commercial value in access to the data, but the folks who scanned those datasheets and sold scanned datasheets to begin with never really "owned" the IP of the datasheet. Tim. From dholland at woh.rr.com Mon May 8 08:09:58 2006 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 09:09:58 -0400 Subject: SGI.... Message-ID: <1147093798.21889.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Another nail in the coffin (imo) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114708367971646497.html David From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon May 8 09:43:04 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 07:43:04 -0700 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <1147093798.21889.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1147093798.21889.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <200605080743.04955.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 08 May 2006 06:09, David Holland wrote: > Another nail in the coffin (imo) > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114708367971646497.html > > David Those of us here in Silicon Valley all knew it was coming - and only a matter of time before SGI went bankrupt. But it is so maddening that a company who made the such incredible contributions to graphics, and had such an impressive intellectual property portfolio blew it all away... (Mostly on developing hardware and software to support NT). That's one of the reasons I am mirroring Ian Mapelson's European web site on SGI hardware and software - and have collected everything I could from SGI itself (software and hardware). Having my business here in Mountain View helped (SGI headquarters location). See: http://vintagecomputers.info/ Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 8 10:18:18 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 11:18:18 -0400 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) Message-ID: Jos wrote: > - Is it just my impression, or is any problem I can tackle with an EC-1 > much faster handled with a pocketcalculator or a slide rule? The true value of analog computers comes in when you stop dealing with "static" math and start dealing with "dynamic" math. In particular, capacitors as circuit elements let you build integrators and differentiators. These let you simulate and solve differential and integral equations. These are VERY MUCH of interest in the real world. Much work on chaos theory etc. was initially done on analog computers. (e.g. Lorenz Equation). Correct me if I'm wrong, but the EC-1 does NOT contain a general purpose 4 quadrant multiplier, right? This will limit you to rather dull (but still quite common) differential and integral equations and make it difficult to do the Lorenz equation for example. And recording the output of an analog computer is most easily done with a scope or pen-plotter. These can be added to an EC-1 quite easily but are not the basic setup. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 8 10:52:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 08:52:56 -0700 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605080852560256.1ED75C49@10.0.0.252> On 5/8/2006 at 11:18 AM Tim Shoppa wrote: >And recording the output of an analog computer is most easily done with >a scope or pen-plotter. These can be added to an EC-1 quite easily but >are not the basic setup. My recollection of the EC-1 was that a scope was considered necessary by Heath to use the thing. IIRC, the op-amps in it were okay, but weren't precision affairs, like the stuff from Philbrick. Potentiometers were plain old carbon units, not precision 10-turn units. Think of it as more of a "trainer" than a quality analog computer. I think the only interesting problem that I ever got going was the bouncing ball. There were many other "trainers". I recall one for digital computers that was essentially a large metal drum with lights and switches serving as memory. One would take large (laminated?) cards perhaps 10" wide and wrap them around the drum, then, as the drum rotated, the lights would instruct you what to do. Exactly the same timeframe as the EC-1. At about the same time as the introduction of the EC-1, Argonne National Labs was trumpeting their hybrid computer. (Now THAT would be a collector's item!) :) It was hard back then to think of the EC-1 as a "computer" since it wasn't a stored-program unit. "Computers" of this sort have been around for a long time--in the industrial process control area, the work was often done with pneumatics or hydraulics--there were sqare-root extractors, differentiators, etc. And what is your gas or water meter other than an integrator? Long before the use of electronics for computation, rather sophisticated mechanical analog computers were being used for military fire control applications. If I acquire a ball-and-disk planimeter, is it a vintage computer? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 8 11:33:16 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:33:16 +0100 Subject: Wang OIS60 media? Message-ID: <445F72CC.5010506@yahoo.co.uk> Hi all, Just been offered a Wang OIS60, which sounds like a reasonably interesting machine (cardcaged-tower, ST506 disk, Z80 CPU, support for 8 terminals). The owner's unsure as to whether there are any system disks - and I'm wary of us taking this thing on if we can't rebuild it when the hard disk eventually dies. So, anyone have one of these and have the installation media preserved anywhere? (along with the hard disk formatter - hopefully Wang weren't one of those companies that set hard disks up at the factory and then shipped them out) cheers Jules From m_thompson at ids.net Mon May 8 11:56:41 2006 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 12:56:41 -0400 Subject: CV Mod 32/ Sun 3004 CPU questions In-Reply-To: <444c038dea5f41af8089b74052fd5ee6@valleyimplants.com> References: <444c038dea5f41af8089b74052fd5ee6@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060508125446.01140048@ids.net> At 01:11 AM 5/5/2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > Replaced the tantalum cap in the VME terminator paddle boards on > the ComputerVision, fired it up, and I'm getting >chasing lights on the diag panel. It does it with all cards, and >with only the CPU. Looking at the behavior of a >Sun 3/110, it looks like maybe the power-on reset circuit is flakey >(3/110 chases once and then goes into selftest >patterns, 3004 keeps chasing). Couldn't find this discribed on the >Sun3 Zoo webpage. Anyone come across it? Did anything come out of the CPUs serial console port? If this is the clone of the 3/260 then I have some CV memory boards. Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 8 12:00:51 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <200605080743.04955.lbickley@bickleywest.com> from "Lyle Bickley" at May 08, 2006 07:43:04 AM Message-ID: <200605081700.k48H0pCC005633@onyx.spiritone.com> > Those of us here in Silicon Valley all knew it was coming - and only a matter > of time before SGI went bankrupt. But it is so maddening that a company who > made the such incredible contributions to graphics, and had such an > impressive intellectual property portfolio blew it all away... (Mostly on > developing hardware and software to support NT). I think anyone remotely interested in SGI has been able to see this. It started when they decided to try to be a Windows NT reseller, and was completed when they decided to go into the Linux business. I only use them as a Hobbyist, and the high-end Octanes are going for a very reasonable amount right now, but I've avoided them as it's obvious the days of IRIX getting updates are numbered (not to mention how hard it is to get an update). It is a shame, I have two SGI O2's, one is the slowest R5000 based model, the other is a very nice R12000/270Mhz. I bought both over 3 years ago before things got so bad. Even the incredibly slow O2 is one of the most impressive computers I've ever seen. I'd much rather have a dual R12000 Octane than the dual 750Mhz Sun Blade 1000 I got recently. However, the Sun has software availability and a company that isn't on life support going for it. Well, that and I hear the Octanes are pretty loud, while the SB1000 is surprisingly quiet, especially for its size (it is by far the quietest Sun system I've ever owned). Zane From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 8 12:01:22 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <1147093798.21889.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1147093798.21889.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2006, David Holland wrote: > Another nail in the coffin (imo) > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114708367971646497.html Do you have a link to this story that doesn't lead to an impassable flash thingy? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 8 12:19:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 10:19:36 -0700 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: References: <1147093798.21889.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <200605081019360984.1F26B7A1@10.0.0.252> On 5/8/2006 at 10:01 AM David Griffith wrote: >Do you have a link to this story that doesn't lead to an impassable flash >thingy? Try this one: http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB114708367971646497.html Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon May 8 12:38:23 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:38:23 -0700 Subject: CRTs, Use them or store them... Message-ID: I've been thinking about some of my machines that have built in CRTs. I'm wondering how best to maximize the lifetime of the CRTs and the eventual scarcity of replacements. Does a CRT live longest if it is used often, or if it is left unused, or somewhere in between? For most of these machines, it would be possible to route the video signal to an external monitor and disconnect the power from the CRT itself. The question is would that prolong the life of the CRT? Eric From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 8 12:56:56 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 12:56:56 -0500 Subject: 11/45 angst Message-ID: <000b01c672c8$cc24b060$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, got a bit of time yesterday and today to clean up the work area so I could work on the /45, and to actually go through some of the tests Tony had suggested. First, let me describe the current setup, as I changed things around a bit in order to simplify the setup. Here is how the machine is configured right now, and how it was configured during the following tests. I did not leave out any cards in my list here, so if you don't see it listed, there isn't anything in that slot. Current configuration System Unit 1 (A-B) M930C 2-5 empty 6 (A-F) M8100 7 (A-F) M8101 8 (A-F) M8102 9 (A-F) M8103 10 (A-F) M8104 11 (A-F) M8105 12 (A-F) M8106 13 empty 14 (A-F) M8116 15 (C-F) M8109 16-25 empty 26 (A-B) M9200 side 1 (C-F) M7856 {note, the LTC option on this board is enabled, there is nothing in slot 1C} 27 (A-B) M9200 side 2 (C-D) Dual Grant 28 (A-B) BC11A-0F side 1 (C-D) Dual Grant MF11-L in system unit 1 (A-B) BC11A-0F side 2 (C-F) H214 2 (A-F) G231 3 (A-F) G110 4 (A-F) G231 5 (A-F) G110 6 (C-F) H214 7-8 empty 9 (A-B) BC11A-15 side 1 BA11-KU with DD11-DK 1 (A-B) BC11A-15 (C-D) Dual Grant 2 (A-F) M7762 3-7 (C-D) Dual Grant 8 (D) single grant 9 (A-B) M9312 (D) single grant Connected to the M7762 is an RL02, and connected to the M7856 is an ADDS vt100 clone. Before I go further, I should point out that the system DOES have some basic functionality. It CAN boot up xxdp, and does pass a few front panel tests. The basic problem is I suspect that interrupts aren't working right. I suspect this because when trying to boot a known good RT11 pack, it hits the disk for at least 30 seconds before halting, and it's definitely progressing and not just retrying one read over and over. Many diagnostics fail, but they seem to fail whenever something with interrupts is being tested. Let me also say I'm new to the /45, but learning, so I'm not entirely 100% sure I'm operating the front panel right. In other words, it is very possible this is all due to some stupidity on my part! Initial setup - I power on the system with the front panel knobs set to cons phy and data paths. The console emulator "@" shows up on the system console. The status lights lit are Pause, Master, and Kernel. I type "DL" on the console, the lights start counting up steadily - because I forgot to hit load on the rl02. I hit load and when it goes ready the disk chugs for a minute then prints the XXDP loaded message on the console and prompts for date & time. I can load a few diags and it finds them at least. There is basic sanity here. I happened to find a program on the diag pack called "SIZER". Below is it's output from powerup, which may be helpful to someone "in the know". It reads... --------- p 031757 077317 030217 034317 @DL CHMDLE0 XXDP+ DL MONITOR BOOTED VIA UNIT 0 16K UNIBUS SYSTEM ENTER DATE (DD-MMM-YY): RESTART ADDR: 072010 THIS IS XXDP+. TYPE "H" OR "H/L" FOR HELP. .R SIZER SIZER .BIN PDP 11 SYSTEM SIZER V05.0 DIGITAL STANDARD CONFIGURATIONS REFER TO THE PERIPHERALS HANDBOOK (1975, 1976) CENTRAL PROCESSOR PDP 11/45,50,55 (KB11 SERIES) CPU INTERNAL OPTIONS STACK LIMIT REGISTER EXTENDED INSTRUCTION SET (ASH,ASHC,MUL,DIV) MEMORY SIZE AND ADDRESS MAP 16K WORDS OF CONTIGUOUS MEMORY , 000000, 20000, 40000, 60000, 100000, 120000, 140000, 160000 -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ 000000 I 4K I 8K I 12K I 16K I *NXM* I *NXM* I *NXM* I *DEV* I -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ ' 17776' 37776' 57776' 77776' 117776' 137776' 157776' 177776 PERIPHERAL DEVICES OPTION - ADDRESS - DESCRIPTION KY11 777570 PROGRAMMERS CONSOLE (SWITCH REGISTER) CONSOLE 777560 MAIN TERMINAL. (LA30, LA36, LT33, VT50, VT05, ETC) KW11-L 777546 LINE FREQUENCY CLOCK DP11 774400 SYNCHRONOUS INTERFACE BOOT 773000 READ ONLY MEMORY BOOTSTRAP BOOT 773100 READ ONLY MEMORY BOOTSTRAP BOOT 773200 READ ONLY MEMORY BOOTSTRAP BOOT 773300 READ ONLY MEMORY BOOTSTRAP BOOT 773400 READ ONLY MEMORY BOOTSTRAP BOOT 773500 READ ONLY MEMORY BOOTSTRAP BOOT 773600 READ ONLY MEMORY BOOTSTRAP BOOT 773700 READ ONLY MEMORY BOOTSTRAP M9301 765000 DIAGNOSTIC BOOT USER AND FLOATING PERIPHERAL DEVICES NONE PRESENT ----------------------------- At this point, nothing else is displayed. The above output makes perfect sense to me, with one exception. What on earth does it think when it shows a DP11 sync interface at 774400? Um, that address is what my RL11 is set to. Not sure why it shows as a DP11, maybe that's a bug in this sizer program. In any case... First, Tony suggested I store sucessive bits and read them back, ie. start at loc 0 and store 0,1,2,4,8 etc. I did that. All stored and read back correctly. Then Tony suggested that I run instruction diagnostics. I did that, and below is the output. ----------------------------- 022700 000012 001000 000020 @DL CHMDLE0 XXDP+ DL MONITOR BOOTED VIA UNIT 0 16K UNIBUS SYSTEM ENTER DATE (DD-MMM-YY): RESTART ADDR: 072010 THIS IS XXDP+. TYPE "H" OR "H/L" FOR HELP. .R CQKC?? CQKCG1.BIC DCQKC-G 11/40 & 11/45 INST EXER OPT.CP=045406 OPT.DEV.=000001 PASS #0000 VPC=072452 PSW=000344 PASS #0000 VPC=072452 PSW=010344 PASS #0000 VPC=072452 PSW=010344 PASS #0000 VPC=072452 PSW=010344 PASS #0000 VPC= ---------------------------- On the above diagnostic output, the system prints up to and including "OPT.DEV.=000001" very quickly, then runs for a long time (maybe 2 minutes or more), and then prints out the 5 lines of "PASS..." all very quickly. The cursor just sits to the right of VPC= on the last line, forever and the processor is halted. I'm betting money this is a bad result from this diagnostic. No clue what it means. But.... read on.... There is a website for "hints on testing a dead pdp11" that I used the line time clock test on. Here is what the website says to do.... ---------------------------- Line Time Clock Interrupt Test Most of the older PDP11's had a line time clock that would interrupt at mains frequency (50 or 60Hz). On early LSI-11's, it was not programmable but enabled by a switch on the front panel. Load the following program (which is just a trap catcher and interrupt enable), and start. If an early LSI-11's, substitute 000240 for the lines marked #, run the program for a second or two, then enable the clock. The program should halt at address 104 (the interrupt vector address is 100, and the vector is loaded with 102, which then executes a halt at 102, the PC will then be 104). Location Contents Opcode Comment 001000 012706 mov #770,sp set the stack pointer 001002 000770 001004 005000 clr r0 memory pointer 001006 012701 mov #2,r1 trap value 001010 000002 001012 010120 loop: mov r1,(r0)+ set trap vector value 001014 005020 clr (r0)+ set halt instruction in trap 001016 062701 add #4,r1 update r1 for next trap 001020 000004 001022 020600 cmp sp,r0 load up to stack pointer 001024 001372 bne loop # 001026 012737 mov #100,@#ltc enable clock interrupt # 001030 000100 # 001032 177546 001034 000777 br . loop for ever If the processor doesn't halt, then your clock isn't running. If it halts at 6, then the clock register is missing. -------------------------------- Now, I entered the above program. When I run it, it halts with PC = 4, NOT 104 and the data display shows 000770. Yes, I'm sure there are no burned out front panel lights. To my limited knowledge, this sounds like the program got the interrupt but instead of jumping to 100 for the vector, it jumped somewhere around 0 or 2, since the PC said 4. The plot thickens though, read on.... I took the above program and modified it to set bit six of the receive CSW to 1 (receive character interrupt enable) on the SLU, I believe I did it correctly by just changing location 1032 to 177560. When I run this program, the system is looping at 1034 just like it should... until I hit a key on the console. The moment I hit a key on the console, the processor halts with PC=4, and the data display shows 000770. So it seems that whether the interrupt comes from the LTC or the SLU, no matter what it halts at loc 4 with data 770. Now, I suspect I don't have firm enough ground to walk on to proceed with the following, but just in case it might mean something/confirm things to someone.... I decided to try to run the RL11 diagnostic. Below is the output from that.... ---------------------------------- 000000 003260 000000 000000 @DL CHMDLE0 XXDP+ DL MONITOR BOOTED VIA UNIT 0 16K UNIBUS SYSTEM ENTER DATE (DD-MMM-YY): RESTART ADDR: 072010 THIS IS XXDP+. TYPE "H" OR "H/L" FOR HELP. .R ZRLG?? ZRLGD0.BIC DRS-E0 CZRLG-D-0 CZRLG TESTS CONTROLLER FUNCTIONS, INTERFACE LOGIC, REGISTER OPERATION UNIT IS RL01,RL02 RSTRT ADR 067642 DR>START CHANGE HW (L) ? Y # UNITS (D) ? 1 UNIT 0 RL11=1, RLV11=2, RLV12=3 (O) 1 ? 1 BUS ADDRESS (O) 174400 ? VECTOR (O) 160 ? DRIVE (O) 0 ? DRIVE TYPE = RL01 (L) Y ? N BR LEVEL (O) 5 ? CHANGE SW (L) ? N NXT TST MAY ZERO LD UNIT. DOIT ANYWAY?Y ILL INTER 000 PC 013634 PS 000004 ---------------------------------- If I'm understanding what I'm seeing, it seems the processor is ignoring all vectors as Tony suggested. Of course, I am not skilled enough to know where to go from here. I can say that my processor cards (M8101 through M8106) were borrowed from another collector and tested before I got them, but I guess we can't rule out a problem with those. All the other cards, including terminators and grants, are mine. The BC11A-15 was replaced recently with a brand new one. I've rung out the bus grant lines from slot 26 in the system unit to the terminator card in the BA11 and those seem ok. I've checked the NPR jumper is everywhere, or a grant card is present - in all unibus slots, with the exception of slot 2 in the BA11 where the RL11 is. I've tried two or three different M7762's. Hopefully all this paints a clear picture of the problem, and hopefully someone can suggest a course of action that a DEC neophyte like myself can take :) Thanks for any input! Jay West From eds_2 at yahoo.com Mon May 8 12:42:18 2006 From: eds_2 at yahoo.com (Eric Scharff) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Resolution to zemu and adventure Message-ID: <20060508174218.37977.qmail@web32515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> So is there a working version of Zork/Advent/Dungeon/cave/... that is easily packaged as a software kit for simh? -Eric __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 8 13:18:46 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 11:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Resolution to zemu and adventure In-Reply-To: <20060508174218.37977.qmail@web32515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Eric Scharff" at May 08, 2006 10:42:18 AM Message-ID: <200605081818.k48IIkjE007876@onyx.spiritone.com> > So is there a working version of Zork/Advent/Dungeon/cave/... > that is easily packaged as a software kit for simh? Hopefully Henk will jump in here, ZEMU is working on at least RT-11 V5.3 through V5.7. However, it needs to be built on V5.6 or V5.7 at this time. I believe Henk has an RL02 disk image for SIMH available somewhere. There are versions of Advent and Dungeon available for RT-11 and other OS's running on SIMH, I'm not sure how easy they'll be to get into SIMH. I'm guessing being able to run PUTR is a requirement for that. This brings up another question. Does anyone have any method of getting data into SIMH that doesn't require PUTR? As PUTR requires MS-DOS (though it seems to work under WinXP), it's a bit of a problem. Zane From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon May 8 13:12:16 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 11:12:16 -0700 Subject: CRTs, Use them or store them... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445F8A00.7030304@msm.umr.edu> Eric J Korpela wrote: > I've been thinking about some of my machines that have built in CRTs. > I'm wondering how best to maximize the lifetime of the CRTs and the > eventual scarcity of replacements. Does a CRT live longest if it is > used often, or if it is left unused, or somewhere in between? > > For most of these machines, it would be possible to route the video > signal to an external monitor and disconnect the power from the CRT > itself. The question is would that prolong the life of the CRT? > > Eric > > the problems with CRT's will be -gassing -settleing of debris from inside (or phosphor) -potential rot of impace shield on front, or adhesive. -deterioriation of the components -residual charge To minimize gassing, there isn't much to do, other than to care carefully for it, obviously don't break it. There are inorganic materials added to the vacumn vessel before it is sealed that absorb oxygen, and nitrogen, that is about all you can do for the duration. I know that cesium was used at one time, but I don't know if that is still the norm, or if it has been replaced with something else. Bottom line though when it quits doing its job over time absorbing outgas, you are pretty much going to have to toss it or rebuild it. Store it with the face down, or at least not with the electron gun down. I guess it could be argued that debris could settle on the front and damage the phosphor, but that is less likely, as there are less things for it to adher to on the front where the phosphor is, than in the electron gun section in the neck, plus the obviously larger target. the things I have seen that are bad is when the adhesive to glue an impact safety shield on goes. There has been discussions you can search on this list , rather than repeat here about that. The last thing I would worry about is to be sure that the drive electronics are not bad when you restore it to service. that board may have decayed electrolytics and high voltage components that might arc and damage the electron gun guts after a long period of storage. The last thing is unlikely to occur in computer monitors, as I think most have ways to loose charge and not accumulate it over time. older crt systems would potentially accumulate charge internally and that could damage the phosphor, or the electron gun end over time by attracting contaminates to cover the electron gun. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon May 8 14:09:02 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 12:09:02 -0700 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <200605081700.k48H0pCC005633@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605081700.k48H0pCC005633@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200605081209.03235.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 08 May 2006 10:00, Zane H. Healy wrote: ---snip--- > I only use them as a Hobbyist, and the high-end Octanes are going for a > very reasonable amount right now, but I've avoided them as it's obvious the > days of IRIX getting updates are numbered (not to mention how hard it is to > get an update). I, too, only use their gear as a hobbyist. I've got at least one of almost every early box SGI produced: PI, Indigo, Indigo2, Indy, O2, Octane, Octane2, Crimson, Onyx RE2, Onyx IR - and I've tried to collect as many video options as I could: Cosmo, Cosmo/Compress, Sirius, etc. for each system and spare boards/modules for all of the above. I haven't had much trouble getting software updates - at least through IRIX 6.5.22. I signed up years ago as a Supportfolio member and member of the SGI User Group and I've obtained just about all of the software free. I just checked, and I have over 16GB of IRIX and IRIX related software (not counting probably 100-200 original IRIX and application CDs. (I lucked out - as my customers dropped SGI, they "donated" their software to me.) I just noted that the only current product I am missing was the latest version of Performer (3.2.2). I'm in the process of downloading it now - apparently with a lot of other folks. I typically get about 2-3MB/sec downloading from SGI - it's now running at 64KB! My guess is that everybody who saw SGI's bankruptcy notice is downloading all the current stuff at once. > It is a shame, I have two SGI O2's, one is the slowest R5000 based model, > the other is a very nice R12000/270Mhz. I bought both over 3 years ago > before things got so bad. Even the incredibly slow O2 is one of the most > impressive computers I've ever seen. Yes, SGI's gear - even though "obsolete" - often will beat benchmarks of the latest nvidia and ati graphic boards (w/high resolution, and high levels of anti-aliasing turned on). SGI supported multiple displays all the way back to the Indigo's. My big mid '90s ONYX IR supports realtime video, eight (8) displays, OpenGL in silicon, scores of video "engines", etc., etc. Pretty amazing stuff! But shoddy management was able to "overcome" all of SGI's technical prowness and bring the company to bankruptcy. Even more important than the loss of technical excellence has been the human cost of SGI's mismanagement. Over the last few years, thousands of SGI employees, some of them my good friends, got laid off or quit SGI out of disgust. The human toll was enormous... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon May 8 14:25:38 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 20:25:38 +0100 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445F9B32.1040907@gjcp.net> Tim Shoppa wrote: > The true value of analog computers comes in when you stop dealing > with "static" math and start dealing with "dynamic" math. Actually analogue computers are in daily active use, and were made right up until at least the early '90s! If you crack open the injection "computer" for a car fitted with Bosch LE-Jetronic or its derivatives, all you'll find inside is opamps and monostables. These do a sterling job of tweaking the injector pulse length from a nominal value of 2ms, depending on airflow and RPM. As an aside, most "limp-home" modes on injection ECUs that *do* use a microprocessor simply squirt fuel for around 2ms every time the ignition fires. It finds its way into the cylinder and burns the next time around... Gordon. From kth at srv.net Mon May 8 15:02:05 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 14:02:05 -0600 Subject: Resolution to zemu and adventure In-Reply-To: <200605081818.k48IIkjE007876@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605081818.k48IIkjE007876@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <445FA3BD.5090201@srv.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >This brings up another question. Does anyone have any method of getting >data into SIMH that doesn't require PUTR? As PUTR requires MS-DOS (though >it seems to work under WinXP), it's a bit of a problem. > > PUTR is written in MACRO iirc, and is not portable. Its stuck to MS-DOS, or those OS's that can emulate MS-DOS to the hardware level. I usually use kermit for RSTS/E and sometimes for VMS, FTP for VMS and BSD. You have to be careful to set up kermit parameters carefully, though, or it overflows buffers and barfs. I've also been known to use cut-and-paste on xterms for small files, used tape images, and an unformatted simulated tape drive a couple of times. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 8 15:16:17 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <200605081209.03235.lbickley@bickleywest.com> from "Lyle Bickley" at May 08, 2006 12:09:02 PM Message-ID: <200605082016.k48KGHnM011337@onyx.spiritone.com> > > It is a shame, I have two SGI O2's, one is the slowest R5000 based model, > > the other is a very nice R12000/270Mhz. I bought both over 3 years ago > > before things got so bad. Even the incredibly slow O2 is one of the most > > impressive computers I've ever seen. > > Yes, SGI's gear - even though "obsolete" - often will beat benchmarks of the > latest nvidia and ati graphic boards (w/high resolution, and high levels of > anti-aliasing turned on). What is really mind blowing is the load you can put on something like an SGI O2 w/180Mhz R5000PC (only 32k cache, so it's significantly slower than the R5000SC). I can put enough of a load on the system to noticably slow it down, but it's still silky smooth! It feels even smoother than Solaris, and Linux and Mac OS X are dogs by compariso. Zane From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon May 8 15:32:53 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 22:32:53 +0200 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <200605082016.k48KGHnM011337@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605081209.03235.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <200605082016.k48KGHnM011337@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060508223253.173acd9c@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Mon, 8 May 2006 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT) "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > What is really mind blowing is the load you can put on something like > an SGI O2 w/180Mhz R5000PC Seconded. Octane (ESSI, R12k 300 MHz, 2 GB RAM) in my case. At the moment I use some PeeCee crap with dual P III 800 MHz. The PeeCee has a lot more CPU power, but the Octane is still more responsive under load. Unfortunately the Octane consumes about 5 (fife) times more electical power then the PeeCee... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 8 15:55:54 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 21:55:54 +0100 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <200605081700.k48H0pCC005633@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605081700.k48H0pCC005633@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <445FB05A.1060106@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Those of us here in Silicon Valley all knew it was coming - and only a matter >> of time before SGI went bankrupt. But it is so maddening that a company who >> made the such incredible contributions to graphics, and had such an >> impressive intellectual property portfolio blew it all away... (Mostly on >> developing hardware and software to support NT). > > I think anyone remotely interested in SGI has been able to see this. It > started when they decided to try to be a Windows NT reseller, and was > completed when they decided to go into the Linux business. I don't know - I could forgive them the Linux side of it I think, because they still had the chance to produce some pretty cool software running on a reasonably efficient OS (provided the bloated Linux desktop environments were avoided, of course!) But the NT move - to a completely different OS that isn't even remotely UNIX-like, and known to not be the most efficient of systems (particularly under load) never made any business sense at all to me. Plus of course the fact that a company like SGI were supporting Microsoft lost them all respect I think! > I only use them as a Hobbyist, and the high-end Octanes are going for a very > reasonable amount right now, but I've avoided them as it's obvious the days > of IRIX getting updates are numbered (not to mention how hard it is to get > an update). You're complaining about lack of OS updates on a classic computing list!? ;-) > It is a shame, I have two SGI O2's, one is the slowest R5000 based model, > the other is a very nice R12000/270Mhz. I bought both over 3 years ago > before things got so bad. Even the incredibly slow O2 is one of the most > impressive computers I've ever seen. Yeah, they did some pretty cool stuff back in the day. I still want to find an O200 sometime as that was my first "serious" exposure to SGI (prior to that I'd just been playing around with Indys) - but it seems that the O200 machines were the black sheep of the family for some reason (at least, there don't seem to ever be any available unlike the rest of SGI's range) > I'd much rather have a dual R12000 Octane than the dual 750Mhz Sun Blade 1000 > I got recently. However, the Sun has software availability and a company > that isn't on life support going for it. Depends what you use it for, I suppose. If your users are known then there's perhaps less of a case to require OS security patches - same if the machine's not hooked directly up to the 'net. If you're a programmer and the OS does what you need of it, there's not always a need to patch, either. I should really approach SGI in the UK from a museum standing and see if they've got anything they can throw our way before it's too late! cheers Jules From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 8 16:04:59 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 17:04:59 -0400 Subject: SGI.... References: <200605081209.03235.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <200605082016.k48KGHnM011337@onyx.spiritone.com> <20060508223253.173acd9c@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <003d01c672e3$116fa570$8c5c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jochen Kunz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: SGI.... > On Mon, 8 May 2006 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT) > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > What is really mind blowing is the load you can put on something like > > an SGI O2 w/180Mhz R5000PC > Seconded. Octane (ESSI, R12k 300 MHz, 2 GB RAM) in my case. At the > moment I use some PeeCee crap with dual P III 800 MHz. The PeeCee has a > lot more CPU power, but the Octane is still more responsive under load. > Unfortunately the Octane consumes about 5 (fife) times more electical > power then the PeeCee... > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > Responsiveness is more of a function of the OS then the hardware, Amiga users used to rave about the responsiveness of workbench and those machines were a bit underpowered. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 8 16:11:48 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 14:11:48 -0700 Subject: SGI.... Message-ID: > I've got at least one of almost > every early box SGI produced: PI, Indigo, Indigo2, Indy, O2, Octane, Octane2, > Crimson, Onyx RE2, Onyx IR Hopefully someone will save examples of the 4D series and the software for them. I think there are still a few of the 68k machines around (though probably none the earliest of the 1xxx series with CPUs based on the SUN design. It may be time to put up the docs on the 68K machines that I've had buried in storage along with a copy of the SGI 68K FAQ I helped with years ago. From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 8 16:36:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 15:36:39 -0600 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 08 May 2006 14:11:48 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > Hopefully someone will save examples of the 4D series and the software > for them. I'm wrokgin with an SGI collector to obtain his complete line of SGI machines for my graphics museum I hope to build in Salt Lake sometime. The logistics are going to be pretty hairy as I think its going to top out at 2,500 lbs shipping weight! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 8 16:43:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 22:43:47 +0100 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445FBB93.1000901@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: >> I've got at least one of almost >> every early box SGI produced: PI, Indigo, Indigo2, Indy, O2, Octane, Octane2, >> Crimson, Onyx RE2, Onyx IR > > Hopefully someone will save examples of the 4D series and the software > for them. We've got a 4D/25, 4D/35 (Elan graphics), and a 4D/90 (I think!) on the way when I get back to the UK and pick it up. Three or four Indys are kicking around too, and a couple of Indigos - but that's the extent of our SGI collection at the moment. > I think there are still a few of the 68k machines around Now that would be a nice find - although I doubt any of the 68k boxes ever made it to the UK side of the pond :( cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 8 16:53:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 16:53:21 -0500 Subject: Fw: PDP-11 Hardware Message-ID: <010a01c672e9$d2cacb90$6500a8c0@BILLING> Someone wrote to me.... ----------------------- Hi There! We came across your website and would like to get some additional information in regards to the assistance in finding a good home for the (2) PDP-11 systems that we have in our shop, hopefully at a benefit to us too! As you can see from the attached photos, they are a bit aged and have been out of commission for some time. Please let me know if you think. ---------------------- I put the pictures up at www.ezwind.net/jwest/cleveland At one point I would have taken this myself just cause it's close... but... too little time :) If interested, email me off-list. Jay West From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 8 16:57:20 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:57:20 -0400 Subject: Resolution to zemu and adventure In-Reply-To: <20060508174218.37977.qmail@web32515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060508174218.37977.qmail@web32515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060508215721.D181FBA48EF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Eric Scharff wrote: > So is there a working version of Zork/Advent/Dungeon/cave/... > that is easily packaged as a software kit for simh? Seeing as how Bob Supnik is the author of SIMH *and* the guy responsible for porting it to the PDP-11, it seems like his port is the place to start :-). ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rt11freewarev2/dsk/misc/advent.dsk (and advsrc.dsk and dunsrc.dsk for the source!) Comes handily packaged as (what else?) a disk image. Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 8 17:02:48 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 15:02:48 -0700 Subject: Fw: PDP-11 Hardware Message-ID: The Chrislin dual floppy / winchester in the 11/73 should use an AED controller since they OEMed them from us. It simulates a DY and DL. Disturbing thing is I don't see the AED dual wide WINC05 controller card in the backplane. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 16:49:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 22:49:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRTs, Use them or store them... In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at May 8, 6 10:38:23 am Message-ID: > > I've been thinking about some of my machines that have built in CRTs. > I'm wondering how best to maximize the lifetime of the CRTs and the > eventual scarcity of replacements. Does a CRT live longest if it is > used often, or if it is left unused, or somewhere in between? The cathode will fail faster (lose emission), the phosphor will fail faster, etc when the CRT is in use. I would guess it's better to leave them not running. That said, the CRTs themselves are not likely to be hard to replace. Most of the monochrome ones used in terminals, etc, are similar to the ones used in black and white portable TVs, and those don't seem to be in short supply yet. I would be more worried about finding replacements for flyback transformers, which are more likely to fail than CRTs anyway. > > For most of these machines, it would be possible to route the video > signal to an external monitor and disconnect the power from the CRT > itself. The question is would that prolong the life of the CRT? Disconnect the power from the complete monitor section. That way you remove the power from the horizontal output stage too, thus reducing the risk to the flyback transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 16:27:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 22:27:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: <445F07C0.5030308@topinform.de> from "Andreas Holz" at May 8, 6 10:56:32 am Message-ID: > > If this would help, I would pay some bucks for the copy and the postage > to send the copies to Al Kossow (If Al would like to get the copies to > be scanned for bitsavers.org). The problem then becomes the one of convincing me to stand in front of a copier for a few days (this manual is not thin!). More serieously, is there any collector in the London (England) area who could scan it? The reason I ask is that I may have _2_ copies of this manual. I would be prepared to lend one out for scanning if I can find both of them (I don't want to be without the manual -- I have one of the drives too). But I'd rather not trust it to the postal 'service'. -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon May 8 17:09:44 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:09:44 -0700 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605081509.45205.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 08 May 2006 14:11, Al Kossow wrote: > > I've got at least one of almost > > every early box SGI produced: PI, Indigo, Indigo2, Indy, O2, Octane, > > Octane2, Crimson, Onyx RE2, Onyx IR > > Hopefully someone will save examples of the 4D series and the software > for them. My PI is a 4D/25 with the Turbo Graphics option (highest graphics option available for the 4D/25). It's OS is IRIX 5.3. I have the IRIX 5.3, IRIX 5.3 patch/updates, Development Kit, etc. on CDs and/or my RAID 5 array. I think I also have an IRIX 5.2 CD... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 17:01:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 23:01:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 angst In-Reply-To: <000b01c672c8$cc24b060$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at May 8, 6 12:56:56 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, got a bit of time yesterday and today to clean up the work area so I > could work on the /45, and to actually go through some of the tests Tony had > suggested. First, let me describe the current setup, as I changed things > around a bit in order to simplify the setup. Here is how the machine is > configured right now, and how it was configured during the following tests. > I did not leave out any cards in my list here, so if you don't see it > listed, there isn't anything in that slot. > > Current configuration > System Unit > 1 (A-B) M930C > 2-5 empty > 6 (A-F) M8100 > 7 (A-F) M8101 > 8 (A-F) M8102 > 9 (A-F) M8103 > 10 (A-F) M8104 > 11 (A-F) M8105 > 12 (A-F) M8106 > 13 empty > 14 (A-F) M8116 > 15 (C-F) M8109 > 16-25 empty > 26 (A-B) M9200 side 1 (C-F) M7856 {note, the LTC option on this board is > enabled, there is nothing in slot 1C} > 27 (A-B) M9200 side 2 (C-D) Dual Grant > 28 (A-B) BC11A-0F side 1 (C-D) Dual Grant > > MF11-L in system unit > 1 (A-B) BC11A-0F side 2 (C-F) H214 > 2 (A-F) G231 > 3 (A-F) G110 > 4 (A-F) G231 > 5 (A-F) G110 > 6 (C-F) H214 > 7-8 empty > 9 (A-B) BC11A-15 side 1 > > BA11-KU with DD11-DK > 1 (A-B) BC11A-15 (C-D) Dual Grant > 2 (A-F) M7762 > 3-7 (C-D) Dual Grant > 8 (D) single grant > 9 (A-B) M9312 (D) single grant > > Connected to the M7762 is an RL02, and connected to the M7856 is an ADDS > vt100 clone. Before I go further, I should point out that the system DOES > have some basic functionality. It CAN boot up xxdp, and does pass a few > front panel tests. The basic problem is I suspect that interrupts aren't > working right. I suspect this because when trying to boot a known good RT11 > pack, it hits the disk for at least 30 seconds before halting, and it's > definitely progressing and not just retrying one read over and over. Many > diagnostics fail, but they seem to fail whenever something with interrupts > is being tested. Let me also say I'm new to the /45, but learning, so I'm > not entirely 100% sure I'm operating the front panel right. In other words, > it is very possible this is all due to some stupidity on my part! No, I think it's a real fault, not operator error. [XXDP+ output snipped] > At this point, nothing else is displayed. The above output makes perfect > sense to me, with one exception. What on earth does it think when it shows a > DP11 sync interface at 774400? Um, that address is what my RL11 is set to. Probably becuase the initial use of that address was for a DP11. It finds _something_ there and assumes it's a DP11. > Not sure why it shows as a DP11, maybe that's a bug in this sizer program. > In any case... > > First, Tony suggested I store sucessive bits and read them back, ie. start > at loc 0 and store 0,1,2,4,8 etc. I did that. All stored and read back > correctly. OK, you don't have a data bus error (the fact it'll boot XXDP+ would confirm this too). > > Then Tony suggested that I run instruction diagnostics. I did that, and > below is the output. > ----------------------------- > 022700 000012 001000 000020 > @DL > > CHMDLE0 XXDP+ DL MONITOR > BOOTED VIA UNIT 0 > 16K UNIBUS SYSTEM > > ENTER DATE (DD-MMM-YY): > > RESTART ADDR: 072010 > THIS IS XXDP+. TYPE "H" OR "H/L" FOR HELP. > > .R CQKC?? > CQKCG1.BIC > > DCQKC-G 11/40 & 11/45 INST EXER > OPT.CP=045406 > > OPT.DEV.=000001 > > PASS #0000 VPC=072452 PSW=000344 > PASS #0000 VPC=072452 PSW=010344 > PASS #0000 VPC=072452 PSW=010344 > PASS #0000 VPC=072452 PSW=010344 > PASS #0000 VPC= > ---------------------------- > On the above diagnostic output, the system prints up to and including > "OPT.DEV.=000001" very quickly, then runs for a long time (maybe 2 minutes > or more), and then prints out the 5 lines of "PASS..." all very quickly. The > cursor just sits to the right of VPC= on the last line, forever and the > processor is halted. I'm betting money this is a bad result from this > diagnostic. No clue what it means. But.... read on.... I wonder if it's tried an illegal instruction trap, or an EMT trap, or something , and it's failing on those too. > Now, I entered the above program. When I run it, it halts with PC = 4, NOT > 104 and the data display shows 000770. Yes, I'm sure there are no burned out > front panel lights. To my limited knowledge, this sounds like the program > got the interrupt but instead of jumping to 100 for the vector, it jumped > somewhere around 0 or 2, since the PC said 4. The plot thickens though, read I think it tried to load the vector from location 0. got a '2' from there into the PC, jumped to location 2, which contains a halt instruction, halted there, so the PC contains 4 (address of next instruction so you can CONTinue). > on.... > > I took the above program and modified it to set bit six of the receive CSW > to 1 (receive character interrupt enable) on the SLU, I believe I did it > correctly by just changing location 1032 to 177560. When I run this program, > the system is looping at 1034 just like it should... until I hit a key on > the console. The moment I hit a key on the console, the processor halts with > PC=4, and the data display shows 000770. So it seems that whether the > interrupt comes from the LTC or the SLU, no matter what it halts at loc 4 Right. What this suggests to me is that yet again it fetched the vector from location 0, etc. In other words, the processor ignores the contents of the data bus at this time (the data lines are driven by the interrupting device, and should give the address of the vector to be used). [RL test output] > ILL INTER 000 > PC 013634 PS 000004 That sounds suspiciously like 'illegal interrupt to location 0' :-) > ---------------------------------- > If I'm understanding what I'm seeing, it seems the processor is ignoring all > vectors as Tony suggested. Of course, I am not skilled enough to know where Right, that's what I think too. > to go from here. I can say that my processor cards (M8101 through M8106) > were borrowed from another collector and tested before I got them, but I I think the problem is on one of the processor cards. To find it is going to involve diging into the logic -- do you have the necessary test gear (logic probe, 'scope, etc)? Do you feel happy getting amongst a machine with over 1000 ICs in it (yes, I know the feeling. That's how I felt when I got my 11/45. I spent weeks just reading the printset). If you do want to go ahead with this (and I think you should!), I'll get out the prints and the technical manual and go through it with you. That is, unless I get flamage for not providing scans of these manuals. -tony From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 8 17:12:18 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 00:12:18 +0200 Subject: Resolution to zemu and adventure References: <20060508174218.37977.qmail@web32515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2013C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yes. For now ... The zemu-ve.zip on http://www.pdp-11.nl/auction/zemu-ve.zip contains the latest zemu files, and the last update that Johnny did: a working version of the $VE (VERIFY) command. After that, Johnny has made one more change, but it is only in the VERIFY command. This "zemu-ve.zip" is approx 319 kb and contains ZORK I, II, and III (and of course ZEMU). Use in SIMH the following additional commands: >set RL1 rl02 >att RL1 zemu-ve.dsk >boot rl (assuming rl0 is RT11 boot "RL02"). .copy dl1:*.* sy: My usage works fine in RT-11 XM, and using VBGEXE. Excerpt of the console output: .VBGEXE program? ZEMU ZEMU/RT X00.19 Game filename? ZORK1.DAT West of House ... [note: ".VBGEXE ZEMU" does *not* work for me!] To run ADVENT, you simply in RT-11 do: .VBGEXE ADVENT WELCOME TO ADVENTURE!! WOULD YOU LIKE INSTRUCTIONS? ... enjoy the games! - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Eric Scharff Verzonden: ma 08-05-2006 19:42 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Resolution to zemu and adventure So is there a working version of Zork/Advent/Dungeon/cave/... that is easily packaged as a software kit for simh? -Eric This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 8 17:31:38 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 17:31:38 -0500 Subject: 11/45 angst References: Message-ID: <016401c672ef$2c4d4710$6500a8c0@BILLING> Tony wrote... > I think the problem is on one of the processor cards. To find it is going > to involve diging into the logic Oh Joy. Supposedly this set of processor cards booted up Unix just before it was shipped to me, but I guess you never know. I'd be more inclined to suspect that someone/thing before me messed up something on the backplane. >-- do you have the necessary test gear > (logic probe, 'scope, etc)? Very likely. HP logic probe, pulser, current tracer, Tek 2246 scope, HP 1631 logic analyzer, HP freq. counter, HP bench DVM... probably most things you'd call out :) > Do you feel happy getting amongst a machine > with over 1000 ICs in it (yes, I know the feeling. That's how I felt when > I got my 11/45. I spent weeks just reading the printset). Happy? Absolutely! Feel like I have a clue what I'm doing? No! But I'm willing to learn. I have no extender cards for the machine though, so hopefully much can be done just from the backplane side. > If you do want to go ahead with this (and I think you should!), I'll get > out the prints and the technical manual and go through it with you. If you can put up with my lack of skill & knowledge, I'd love to go through it at your direction. It'd help me learn the machine, and it'd get up and running so I could move on to other machines and thus consolidate space in the basement and make wife happier :) > That is, unless I get flamage for not providing scans of these manuals. Not from me you wouldn't :) Jay From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon May 8 18:18:33 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 00:18:33 +0100 Subject: Prime Message-ID: <26c11a640605081618j2b9845fbhf5a4a1ccad0e3a92@mail.gmail.com> Picked up the prime today. I won't get a chance to have a good look at it until the weekend. It is in excellent condition. It has a system log with every update written down, every service report from prime. Also manuals for software and user guides. Also nothing has been deleted from the 2 hard drives since it left the university. Dan From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 8 19:13:16 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 20:13:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <003d01c672e3$116fa570$8c5c1941@game> Message-ID: <20060509001316.A6443581BF@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Teo Zenios > > Responsiveness is more of a function of the OS then the hardware, Amiga > users used to rave about the responsiveness of workbench and those machines > were a bit underpowered. > Used to? ;) Anytime anybody brings up multitasking or how sluggish their computer is I can't help but bring up the Amiga... :) Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 19:22:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 01:22:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 angst In-Reply-To: <016401c672ef$2c4d4710$6500a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at May 8, 6 05:31:38 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote... > > I think the problem is on one of the processor cards. To find it is going > > to involve diging into the logic > Oh Joy. Supposedly this set of processor cards booted up Unix just before it > was shipped to me, but I guess you never know. I'd be more inclined to > suspect that someone/thing before me messed up something on the backplane. It might well be a backplane problem -- a signal getting lost because of a bad wire or something. But the easiest way to find that is to work through the circuitry that handles the vector, both the 'path' the vector takes and the control lines that control (!) that. > > >-- do you have the necessary test gear > > (logic probe, 'scope, etc)? > Very likely. HP logic probe, pulser, current tracer, Tek 2246 scope, HP 1631 > logic analyzer, HP freq. counter, HP bench DVM... probably most things you'd > call out :) Excellent! > > > Do you feel happy getting amongst a machine > > with over 1000 ICs in it (yes, I know the feeling. That's how I felt when > > I got my 11/45. I spent weeks just reading the printset). > Happy? Absolutely! Feel like I have a clue what I'm doing? No! But I'm Again, excellent. You'll get that clue sooner than you think. > willing to learn. I have no extender cards for the machine though, so > hopefully much can be done just from the backplane side. Hmm... We may have to solder short bits of wire to the back of some of the boards, put the board back into the backplane, then probe the ends of the wires. That's how I get by without an extender on most of my machines. OK, I'll look at the manuals to see what should be going on. -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon May 8 19:24:41 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 19:24:41 -0500 Subject: SGI... Message-ID: <007fb423390c4c96a634358dbba7b80f@valleyimplants.com> I don't have the bandwidth to even archive, let alone mirror anything substantial, but might it be a good idea for someone to look into archiving/possibly getting permission to mirror a chunk of TechPubs and the public patches? I'm still looking into converting the IRIX 4 subsytems from IDO 5.3 to runnable setups for IRIX 4.0.5. (since IDO 5.3 is freely available . . .). Does anyone know how to build an inst package on early IRIX (3.3-4.0.5?) No Software Packager, and all the docs talk about using swpkg. . . . From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon May 8 19:53:54 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 20:53:54 -0400 Subject: RK05 disk packs Message-ID: <445FE822.8060501@nktelco.net> I have just gotten about 80 RK05 disk packs for a PDP-11. They have been stored in an office environment, but most have not been used for at least 15 years. Some have labels indicating they were cleaned by SCOPUS in the late '80s. Any recommendations on the best way to store them would be helpful. If anybody is interested in some of them, they can be had for the shipping. Contact me offline if you are interested and we can talk about the details. I am located in Ohio, USA 45865. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 8 19:53:47 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 19:53:47 -0500 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <20060509001316.A6443581BF@mail.wordstock.com> References: <003d01c672e3$116fa570$8c5c1941@game> <20060509001316.A6443581BF@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060508195259.054e59d8@mail> At 07:13 PM 5/8/2006, Bryan Pope wrote: >And thusly were the wise words spake by Teo Zenios >> Responsiveness is more of a function of the OS then the hardware, Amiga >> users used to rave about the responsiveness of workbench and those machines >> were a bit underpowered. > >Used to? ;) Anytime anybody brings up multitasking or how sluggish >their computer is I can't help but bring up the Amiga... :) Gee, for a second there, I thought he was going to bring up the ST. - John "The Man Once Known As The Father of Amiga Journalism" From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 8 20:06:49 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 21:06:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060508195259.054e59d8@mail> Message-ID: <20060509010649.30DF2582AC@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by John Foust > > At 07:13 PM 5/8/2006, Bryan Pope wrote: > >And thusly were the wise words spake by Teo Zenios > >> Responsiveness is more of a function of the OS then the hardware, Amiga > >> users used to rave about the responsiveness of workbench and those machines > >> were a bit underpowered. > > > >Used to? ;) Anytime anybody brings up multitasking or how sluggish > >their computer is I can't help but bring up the Amiga... :) > > Gee, for a second there, I thought he was going to bring up the ST. > I don't think so... :) > - John > "The Man Once Known As The Father of Amiga Journalism" Do you have a personal website? Cheers, Bryan From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 8 20:26:11 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 21:26:11 -0400 Subject: SGI.... References: <20060509001316.A6443581BF@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <001c01c67307$8ea6f6f0$8c5c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: SGI.... > And thusly were the wise words spake by Teo Zenios > > > > Responsiveness is more of a function of the OS then the hardware, Amiga > > users used to rave about the responsiveness of workbench and those machines > > were a bit underpowered. > > > > Used to? ;) Anytime anybody brings up multitasking or how sluggish > their computer is I can't help but bring up the Amiga... :) > > Cheers, > > Bryan I never had an SGI to compare my Amigas to (500/1200/2000HD). The other end of the spectrum would be my 68K Macs (if the CPU is doing something the OS goes out for lunch). From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 8 21:27:52 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 19:27:52 -0700 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Tim Shoppa" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: >Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1 bootdisk wanted ( sort off..) >Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 11:18:18 -0400 > >Jos wrote: > > > - Is it just my impression, or is any problem I can tackle with an >EC-1 > > much faster handled with a pocketcalculator or a slide rule? > >The true value of analog computers comes in when you stop dealing >with "static" math and start dealing with "dynamic" math. >. Ya, I'd like to see him solve the state of three loosely coupled oscillators with his calculator. One can do this with the EC-1. The lack of a multiplier is a tough one for more complicated operations. Still some non-linear things ca be done with a diode, as is done in the bouncing ball. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 9 00:21:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 22:21:50 -0700 Subject: AES Data/Lanier CPU? Message-ID: <200605082221500100.01EFADF2@10.0.0.252> I'm working with some very old 8" HS media (doing data recovery) from a Lanier Word processor. It's still pretty early in the process, but it looks as if the AES folks used a 12-bit processor. It's just a wild guess based on some bit patterns I'm seeing. Can anyone verify this? I'm guessing that the year is about 1975/76 or so. Cheers, Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 9 02:26:28 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:26:28 +0200 Subject: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <003d01c672e3$116fa570$8c5c1941@game> References: <200605081209.03235.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <200605082016.k48KGHnM011337@onyx.spiritone.com> <20060508223253.173acd9c@SirToby.dinner41.de> <003d01c672e3$116fa570$8c5c1941@game> Message-ID: <20060509092628.0f62437a@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Mon, 8 May 2006 17:04:59 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > Responsiveness is more of a function of the OS then the hardware Yes, the OS is one part of the game. If you can't run a good OS on "fast" hardware and if "fast" hardware has inferior IO it comes down to the hardware again. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 9 10:26:28 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 10:26:28 Subject: HP 9000 BASIC manuals -- Ebay Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060509102628.3b4f3560@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FYI Item name: HP Basic 5.0/5.1 Manual Set 9000 series 200/300 - RARE Price: $14.99 Bids: 1 End date: May-15-06 10:00:23 PDT Distance: View item: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8808204517&ssPageName=ADM E:B:SS:US:1 Item name: HP SERIES 200 COMPUTER BASIC INTERFACING TECHNIQUES 2.1 Price: $19.99 Bids: 0 End date: May-11-06 21:47:33 PDT Distance: View item: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7616756218&ssPageName=ADM E:B:SS:US:1 From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 9 10:46:12 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 09:46:12 -0600 Subject: VAXbar Message-ID: This has probably been posted here before, but it was new to me :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 9 11:27:04 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:27:04 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest 2.0 Announcement Message-ID: <200605091227.04692.pat@computer-refuge.org> Announcing: ***************************************************** * * * VCF / Midwest 2.0 "Lite" * * * * Saturday, July 15 * * Purdue University: West Lafayette, Indiana 47907 * * * ***************************************************** Purdue's IEEE Computer Society will be sponsoring the second annual Midwest-area Vintage Computer Festival on July 15th. We are currently looking for people who want to exhibit, and potential speakers for the event. If you want to do either, or know someone who might, please have them get in contact with us at vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. Also, if you are planning on attending, please send mail, so we can get a rough attendance count. More information on the event and the West Lafayette area are posted up at: http://www.vintage.org/2006/midwest/ If you have any questions, contact me at vcvmw at computer-refuge.org. Back now to your regularly scheduled programming. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From evan at snarc.net Tue May 9 11:31:07 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:31:07 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest 2.0 Announcement In-Reply-To: <200605091227.04692.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <001901c67385$f9515760$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Of course, if ya'll can't wait, then come to East 3.0 this Saturday in New Jersey. :) -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Finnegan [mailto:pat at computer-refuge.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; The Rescue List; csociety-announce at lists.csociety.org; plug at lists.csociety.org Subject: VCF Midwest 2.0 Announcement Announcing: ***************************************************** * * * VCF / Midwest 2.0 "Lite" * * * * Saturday, July 15 * * Purdue University: West Lafayette, Indiana 47907 * * * ***************************************************** Purdue's IEEE Computer Society will be sponsoring the second annual Midwest-area Vintage Computer Festival on July 15th. We are currently looking for people who want to exhibit, and potential speakers for the event. If you want to do either, or know someone who might, please have them get in contact with us at vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. Also, if you are planning on attending, please send mail, so we can get a rough attendance count. More information on the event and the West Lafayette area are posted up at: http://www.vintage.org/2006/midwest/ If you have any questions, contact me at vcvmw at computer-refuge.org. Back now to your regularly scheduled programming. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 9 12:52:15 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:52:15 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 2.0 Announcement References: <200605091227.04692.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <004501c67391$5027b6f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Ok, perhaps my brain is foggy... wasn't VCF/Midwest 2 days last year, not one? I think a 2 day event would go over better :) Jay From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue May 9 13:26:08 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 14:26:08 -0400 Subject: CRTs, Use them or store them... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605091426.08237.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 08 May 2006 01:38 pm, Eric J Korpela wrote: > I've been thinking about some of my machines that have built in CRTs. > I'm wondering how best to maximize the lifetime of the CRTs and the > eventual scarcity of replacements. Does a CRT live longest if it is > used often, or if it is left unused, or somewhere in between? > > For most of these machines, it would be possible to route the video > signal to an external monitor and disconnect the power from the CRT > itself. The question is would that prolong the life of the CRT? I read somewhere not all that long ago that leaving vacuum tubes of any sort sitting idle for long periods of time will tend to result in them getting "gassy", by comparison with operating them from time to time. OTOH, a CRT is going to wear eventually in terms of cathode emissions, a problem that's going to be worse at high current levels (high brightness) and also in some cases you'll have burn-in on the screen to deal with, though that's easy enough to get around. So I'd say that the solution is to run it from time to time, gently. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Useddec at aol.com Tue May 9 14:01:29 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:01:29 EDT Subject: Early 1970s PDP stuff for sale Message-ID: <2b0.44d83ab.31924109@aol.com> Hi Ashley, Your equipment shipped out on Friday. I could not find all of the cables and will keep looking. If you have any questions or problems, please contact me. Thanks, Paul 217-586-5361 From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue May 9 14:03:14 2006 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 14:03:14 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 2.0 Announcement In-Reply-To: <004501c67391$5027b6f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200605091227.04692.pat@computer-refuge.org> <004501c67391$5027b6f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: It was only 1 day last year. -Bob >Ok, perhaps my brain is foggy... wasn't VCF/Midwest 2 days last >year, not one? I think a 2 day event would go over better :) > >Jay -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 9 14:10:42 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 14:10:42 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 2.0 Announcement References: <200605091227.04692.pat@computer-refuge.org><004501c67391$5027b6f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <004401c6739c$468c73a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Bob wrote.... > It was only 1 day last year. Then we have clearly established that yes, my brain is foggy :) J From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue May 9 15:54:19 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:54:19 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 2.0 Announcement In-Reply-To: <004501c67391$5027b6f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Nope, just one, though I'd love a 2 day event. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:52 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VCF Midwest 2.0 Announcement > > Ok, perhaps my brain is foggy... wasn't VCF/Midwest 2 days > last year, not one? I think a 2 day event would go over better :) > > Jay > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 9 17:16:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 23:16:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 angst In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 9, 6 01:22:35 am Message-ID: > OK, I'll look at the manuals to see what should be going on. > One final question before we dive into the logic. We (or rather you) have checked the power supply voltages at the backplane, right? Low supply rails, or rails with ripple on them cause all sorts of 'interesting' PDP11 problems. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 9 18:02:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 18:02:10 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 on govliq... Message-ID: <00a501c673bc$9d1cbcf0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=863108&convertTo=USD There are 26 pictures in this auction, but if you go through them all you're notice a very nice DG S/130 with 6045 disk, plus in a different picture a nice DG vertical mount tape unit. These look to be in very nice condition. Unfortunately, there's a lot of extra 1000's of pounds of racks in the same lot :\ Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 9 18:12:28 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 18:12:28 -0500 Subject: 11/45 angst References: Message-ID: <00f101c673be$0ac968b0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote.... > One final question before we dive into the logic. We (or rather you) have > checked the power supply voltages at the backplane, right? Low supply > rails, or rails with ripple on them cause all sorts of 'interesting' > PDP11 problems. Yup, checked the power regulators for level & ripple when I was refurbishing the racks. Actually, I checked them both at the regulator output and on the backplane. But that was many months ago. I checked the 5v supply recently, but the rest were months ago. Jay From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 9 18:38:32 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 18:38:32 -0500 Subject: Wang OIS60 media? In-Reply-To: <445F72CC.5010506@yahoo.co.uk> References: <445F72CC.5010506@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <446127F8.4030701@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hi all, > > Just been offered a Wang OIS60, which sounds like a reasonably > interesting machine (cardcaged-tower, ST506 disk, Z80 CPU, support for 8 > terminals). > > The owner's unsure as to whether there are any system disks - and I'm > wary of us taking this thing on if we can't rebuild it when the hard > disk eventually dies. > > So, anyone have one of these and have the installation media preserved > anywhere? (along with the hard disk formatter - hopefully Wang weren't > one of those companies that set hard disks up at the factory and then > shipped them out) > > cheers > > Jules Jules, since nobody has responded, I'll forward this link: http://www.cass.net/~jdonoghu/ It is for Jim Donoghue's Wang OIS web site. I know he used to be on this list, but I haven't seen sign of him for a while. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue May 9 19:16:51 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 17:16:51 -0700 Subject: DG S/130 on govliq... In-Reply-To: <00a501c673bc$9d1cbcf0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a501c673bc$9d1cbcf0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <446130F3.50103@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=863108&convertTo=USD > Jay, this looks like it is similar to a system we scrapped at UMR that was a ground test set for the Gemini telemetry downlink. The cabinets are full of microwave plumbing, and there are what may be PCM decommutators in one rack, and about a zilliion amps of DC in one. The system we bid on and got from McD in St. Louis put out all the decommutated data on displays that showed analog, digital, and test binary out of every 8 bit field in a 1100 bit PCM stream. I would imagine all that is what the DG system is doing in the middle of the pile. The nice thing we had though was the PCM test set to generate a stream to run the decommutator, and make lots of lights blink. This is 7 - 10 bays total. The one we got was about 80 or 90 6' nasa barfo light blue cabinets. sure brings back memories. The other place you can see the same stuff right now is in the recreated firing room displays, and the space station displays at the KSC vistors Saturn center. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 9 19:39:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 19:39:49 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 on govliq... References: <00a501c673bc$9d1cbcf0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <446130F3.50103@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <018c01c673ca$3e892080$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > this looks like it is similar to a system we scrapped at UMR that was a > ground test set for the Gemini telemetry downlink. I remember the DG stuff at UMR well :) There was an Eclipse running AOS/VS, there was a Nova 3 (which I obtained), and there was also a Nova 1200 (which I also obtained). The Nova 3 had no OS, and I spent MANY hours loading a paper tape assembler and toying with the instruction set. Of course, I got both of them as a college student and they LONG disappeared :\ All this was in the back row of the CompSCI building, in the same room as the 4341 and the 4361, FPS system, Tek 4014's, etc. Oh to be young and irresponsible again. Well, young anyways :) Jay From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue May 9 20:01:48 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 18:01:48 -0700 Subject: was: DG S/130 on govliq... --> "smell o' computing" In-Reply-To: <018c01c673ca$3e892080$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a501c673bc$9d1cbcf0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <446130F3.50103@msm.umr.edu> <018c01c673ca$3e892080$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44613B7C.7060906@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote.... speaking of the 4014's does anyone know what sort of liquid chemistry was used in the printers or "hard copy" devices for those things? I think I have one of the 1 line tubes they had for printing from a junk store in San Diego now, but I always figured the technology would never last because of the god aweful crap that the fixed the images on the paper with. not to mention the paper may become unobtainium. Also the wonderful smell of a 1403 going full tilt with the cosmoline smell and hot ink and grease odors it oozed. what wonderful things I think of when I get a whiff of that. probably different than some other people get when they smell cosmoline. (1911A1's maybe?) Jim > Tek 4014's, etc. Oh to be young and irresponsible again. Well, young > anyways :) > > Jay > > > From sethm at loomcom.com Tue May 9 20:41:31 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 18:41:31 -0700 Subject: ASR33 Current Loop Converter Message-ID: <58AA6DBE-55A3-429C-ACEB-E7AACAE78CEC@loomcom.com> Hello folks! It's good to be back on the list after a... well, I don't know how long, something like a two or three year hiatus. At any rate, I'd like to get back into things by asking whether anyone has good plans for building a 20ma current loop to RS-232 converter. I recently found a Teletype model 33 ASR at a flea market for $40, along with manuals, and I've nursed it back to health. With cleaning, degreasing, and a proper lubrication job, it seems to be working perfectly (well, 99% perfectly) in local mode. I'd like to get it talking to something that speaks RS-232. I've found a number of solutions for sale in the $50 range, but I was hoping to be a cheap bastard and build one myself. I've found a few schematics for hacks online, but no definitive plans for a reasonably robust home made solution. Yes, I suppose I could try to design my own. My horrible, embarrassing secret, though, is that while I'm a good programmer, I suck at circuit design. Never really got it. I can follow a schematic and solder my way to happy results, but don't ask me to design a light switch. I'll get it wrong. I've scoured the logs here, but I haven't found what I'm looking for. Anyone know where I should look? Otherwise, I guess I'll just have to give BlackBox my $50 and swallow my pride! -Seth From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue May 9 21:07:16 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 22:07:16 -0400 Subject: ASR33 Current Loop Converter In-Reply-To: <58AA6DBE-55A3-429C-ACEB-E7AACAE78CEC@loomcom.com> References: <58AA6DBE-55A3-429C-ACEB-E7AACAE78CEC@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <44614AD4.6000904@nktelco.net> Seth Morabito wrote: > > I'd like to get it talking to something that speaks RS-232. I've > found a number of solutions for sale in the $50 range, but I was > hoping to be a cheap bastard and build one myself. I've found a few > schematics for hacks online, but no definitive plans for a reasonably > robust home made solution. > I would look at the M8655 (DEC PDP-8/e serial interface) schematics. -chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 9 22:06:54 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 20:06:54 -0700 Subject: wd1003 floppy ports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi I've scanned the web until my fingers are hanging loose. No one had a description of the floppy ports on a wd1003wa2 board. For the most part, I can assume a standard 765 for the controller chip ports. I want to know what the WD1003WA2 does with the 3F7 port. Most controllers use this port to control clock speeds. On the WD1003WA2, there is a jumper that is stated to be used to select 360 RPM drives or 300 RPM drives. I'm trying to determine if the controller will do FM. One many older controllers that do support FM, the clock rate is set by sending 3 to port 3F7. Does 3F7 do anything on the WD1003WA2? If so, what. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 10 01:04:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 23:04:18 -0700 Subject: wd1003 floppy ports In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605092304180283.073CEC0D@10.0.0.252> On 5/9/2006 at 8:06 PM dwight elvey wrote:>Hi >I want to know what the WD1003WA2 does with the 3F7 port. >Most controllers use this port to control clock speeds. On the >WD1003WA2, there is a jumper that is stated to be used to select >360 RPM drives or 300 RPM drives. I'm trying to determine if >the controller will do FM. One many older controllers that do support >FM, the clock rate is set by sending 3 to port 3F7. Does 3F7 do >anything on the WD1003WA2? If so, what. Well, my spec sheet for the WA2 says that it uses a 765 with a 16C92 support device and supports data rates of 500, 300, 250 and 125 Kbps. If this is anything like the standard AT controller, then setting port 3F7 to 3 will enable the 125 Kbps clock. Does it support FM? The spec sheet doesn't say. As far as the jumper goes, IIRC, it's used to denote a dual-speed (360 high-density, 300 low-denisty) 1.2MB drive. However, one of the later AT controllers, like the 1003WA4, the 1003RA2 or the 1006 series uses the 37C65 controller which definitely supports FM encoding. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 10 02:21:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 00:21:09 -0700 Subject: ASR33 Current Loop Converter In-Reply-To: <58AA6DBE-55A3-429C-ACEB-E7AACAE78CEC@loomcom.com> References: <58AA6DBE-55A3-429C-ACEB-E7AACAE78CEC@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <200605100021090243.0783479D@10.0.0.252> How about this one? http://www.baudot.net/gil/tty232-tap/TTY232_TAP.pdf From pechter at gmail.com Wed May 10 14:07:45 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:07:45 -0400 Subject: FA: Winchester Systems Flashdisk OpenRAID system In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060507112435.35e7af76@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060506220511.3f3f1938@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060506222248.4b0f2174@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060507112435.35e7af76@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: You interested in selling the whole unit? If so -- for how much. I assume it's SCSI LVD interface... is it marked SCSI Differential? Bill On Sun, 07 May 2006 11:24:35, Joe R. wrote: > > Well I didn't get any replies about this device but what I've been able > to figure out it looks like a hell of a drive system! But it doesn't look > anything that I need so I've put it on E-bay. If anyone is interested in a > FAST drive subsystem, check it out. > > > Joe > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 14:12:23 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR33 Current Loop Converter In-Reply-To: <200605100021090243.0783479D@10.0.0.252> References: <58AA6DBE-55A3-429C-ACEB-E7AACAE78CEC@loomcom.com> <200605100021090243.0783479D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060510120847.W51915@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 10 May 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about this one? > http://www.baudot.net/gil/tty232-tap/TTY232_TAP.pdf nice but, if you want something much cheaper: a generic PC $0 one IBM asynch card $0 one other serial port $0 software on the generic PC to take input from one serial port, and output to the other. kinda bulky, and uses too much electricity, but no need to spend money for the hardware. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed May 10 14:25:31 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:25:31 -0400 Subject: ASR33 Current Loop Converter In-Reply-To: <200605100021090243.0783479D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about this one? > > http://www.baudot.net/gil/tty232-tap/TTY232_TAP.pdf > It gets even simpler if you omit the circuitry that taps voltage from the RS-232 interface and just supply a couple of 9-volt batteries (or some other +/- 7 to 12 volt power supply). From allain at panix.com Wed May 10 15:29:03 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:29:03 -0400 Subject: Current Loop Converter References: <58AA6DBE-55A3-429C-ACEB-E7AACAE78CEC@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <01d801c67470$617d5240$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> You should probably be able to find one on eBay for under $10.00 could this be one? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9723577459 John A. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 10 15:33:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:33:03 -0700 Subject: ASR33 Current Loop Converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605101333030725.0A584907@10.0.0.252> On 5/10/2006 at 3:25 PM Bill Sudbrink wrote: >It gets even simpler if you omit the circuitry that taps >voltage from the RS-232 interface and just supply a couple >of 9-volt batteries (or some other +/- 7 to 12 volt power >supply). Yeah, I was thinking that a MAX 232 would handle the RS-232 level translation to and from TTL, so then it'd just boil down to mostly a +5 logic supply, the loop supply and some opto's. If you didn't care about loop isolation, you could even drop the loop supply through a 7805 for the very little +5 that you'd need. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 10 15:48:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:48:32 -0700 Subject: Current Loop Converter In-Reply-To: <01d801c67470$617d5240$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <58AA6DBE-55A3-429C-ACEB-E7AACAE78CEC@loomcom.com> <01d801c67470$617d5240$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200605101348320450.0A6674DC@10.0.0.252> On 5/10/2006 at 4:29 PM John Allain wrote: >You should probably be able to find one on eBay for under $10.00 > >could this be one? >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9723577459 You know, it's not clear at all what the guy's selling. He claims to have 20 ma converters, but the item shown is billed as an RS-485 converter. Maybe the seller can sort things out. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed May 10 16:51:07 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:51:07 -0500 Subject: Gauging interest for an idea I have - feedback please! :) Message-ID: Hi everyone. In the ClassicCmp IRC this afternoon I brought up the idea that I have of starting a quarterly newsletter about vintage DEC systems (1960-1995 or so.) The thought behind this is that as opposed to reading mailing lists wehere you get snippets of information on specific problems, you would read full articles pertaining to both specific and general topics. Possible categories could include: - tools and test equipment reviews - general care and maintenance of a computer in a hobbyist environment - safety notes - specific software notes - getting started with any number of vintage software systems - emulation - interconnectivity between vintage systems, and also to the modern computing facility Now, my personal preference would be to do this on a quarterly schedule, and with old school production values (RUNOFF or some other vintage textsetting system.) Also, the magazine would be based on contributions, so it of course would only be the cost of media and postage. I would also plan to make the back issues available as downloads after 1 year (in PDF or some other universal form) with a printed copy available on request. So let me hear what you think! Julian From evan at snarc.net Wed May 10 17:01:00 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 18:01:00 -0400 Subject: Gauging interest for an idea I have - feedback please! :) Message-ID: <200605102214.k4AMERAg094947@keith.ezwind.net> See my offlist reply ... Let's work together. - Evan From lcourtney at mvista.com Wed May 10 17:19:48 2006 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:19:48 -0700 Subject: Gauging interest for an idea I have - feedback please! :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00f001c6747f$d9aa40c0$c20a000a@mvista.com> Good idea, providing a channel for more in-depth classic computing information. It has my vote. Why hardcopy? Seems like for this market supporting production (old school or new) of a physical newsletter is not the best use of time and resources. In other words use the web (or even a mailing list) to distribute the information much more efficiently, and concentrate time and resources on producing good content. Even CHM is going towards electronic format for latest release of CORE (http://www.computerhistory.org/core/about/), in addition to printing hardcopy. My $0.02. Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:51 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; > info-pdp11 at village.org > Subject: Gauging interest for an idea I have - feedback please! :) > > Hi everyone. > > In the ClassicCmp IRC this afternoon I brought up the idea > that I have of starting a quarterly newsletter about vintage > DEC systems (1960-1995 or so.) The thought behind this is > that as opposed to reading mailing lists wehere you get > snippets of information on specific problems, you would read > full articles pertaining to both specific and general topics. > Possible categories could include: > > - tools and test equipment reviews > - general care and maintenance of a computer in a hobbyist environment > - safety notes > - specific software notes > - getting started with any number of vintage software systems > - emulation > - interconnectivity between vintage systems, and also to the > modern computing facility > > Now, my personal preference would be to do this on a > quarterly schedule, and with old school production values > (RUNOFF or some other vintage textsetting > system.) Also, the magazine would be based on contributions, > so it of course would only be the cost of media and postage. > I would also plan to make the back issues available as > downloads after 1 year (in PDF or some other universal form) > with a printed copy available on request. > > So let me hear what you think! > > Julian > > From bqt at update.uu.se Wed May 10 17:24:46 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 00:24:46 +0200 Subject: Gauging interest for an idea I have - feedback please! :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4462682E.1080308@update.uu.se> I doubt you'll find enough people willing to do the writing, but maybe I'm just a sceptic. Johnny Julian Wolfe wrote: > Hi everyone. > > In the ClassicCmp IRC this afternoon I brought up the idea that I have of > starting a quarterly newsletter about vintage DEC systems (1960-1995 or so.) > The thought behind this is that as opposed to reading mailing lists wehere > you get snippets of information on specific problems, you would read full > articles pertaining to both specific and general topics. Possible > categories could include: > > - tools and test equipment reviews > - general care and maintenance of a computer in a hobbyist environment > - safety notes > - specific software notes > - getting started with any number of vintage software systems > - emulation > - interconnectivity between vintage systems, and also to the modern > computing facility > > Now, my personal preference would be to do this on a quarterly schedule, and > with old school production values (RUNOFF or some other vintage textsetting > system.) Also, the magazine would be based on contributions, so it of > course would only be the cost of media and postage. I would also plan to > make the back issues available as downloads after 1 year (in PDF or some > other universal form) with a printed copy available on request. > > So let me hear what you think! > > Julian > > ---------- > To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to > info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message > body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From sethm at loomcom.com Wed May 10 18:29:01 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:29:01 -0700 Subject: ASR33 Current Loop Converter In-Reply-To: <200605100021090243.0783479D@10.0.0.252> References: <58AA6DBE-55A3-429C-ACEB-E7AACAE78CEC@loomcom.com> <200605100021090243.0783479D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5ECC84D7-2AD4-46A6-B0EE-B9441B9F3E85@loomcom.com> On May 10, 2006, at 12:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about this one? > > http://www.baudot.net/gil/tty232-tap/TTY232_TAP.pdf Aha! Thanks, this looks like exactly what I'm after. This is a circuit I'm probably capable of fiddling with and fully understanding. I'm shocked I didn't find this through all of my googling, but perhaps my google-fu is simply growing weak. -Seth From halarewich at gmail.com Wed May 10 18:58:25 2006 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:58:25 -0700 Subject: Gauging interest for an idea I have - feedback please! :) In-Reply-To: <4462682E.1080308@update.uu.se> References: <4462682E.1080308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <6d6501090605101658n467a61e3g5f790e350160381a@mail.gmail.com> i didnt know we had a classiccmp irc :( more info please :) Chris On 5/10/06, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > I doubt you'll find enough people willing to do the writing, but maybe > I'm just a sceptic. > > Johnny > > Julian Wolfe wrote: > > Hi everyone. > > > > In the ClassicCmp IRC this afternoon I brought up the idea that I have > of > > starting a quarterly newsletter about vintage DEC systems (1960-1995 or > so.) > > The thought behind this is that as opposed to reading mailing lists > wehere > > you get snippets of information on specific problems, you would read > full > > articles pertaining to both specific and general topics. Possible > > categories could include: > > > > - tools and test equipment reviews > > - general care and maintenance of a computer in a hobbyist environment > > - safety notes > > - specific software notes > > - getting started with any number of vintage software systems > > - emulation > > - interconnectivity between vintage systems, and also to the modern > > computing facility > > > > Now, my personal preference would be to do this on a quarterly schedule, > and > > with old school production values (RUNOFF or some other vintage > textsetting > > system.) Also, the magazine would be based on contributions, so it of > > course would only be the cost of media and postage. I would also plan > to > > make the back issues available as downloads after 1 year (in PDF or some > > other universal form) with a printed copy available on request. > > > > So let me hear what you think! > > > > Julian > > > > ---------- > > To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to > > info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message > > body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the > quotes). > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 10 19:19:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gauging interest for an idea I have - feedback please! :) In-Reply-To: <4462682E.1080308@update.uu.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at May 11, 2006 12:24:46 AM Message-ID: <200605110019.k4B0JGWO014899@onyx.spiritone.com> > I doubt you'll find enough people willing to do the writing, but maybe > I'm just a sceptic. How many of us can even find time to update our own websites? I keep my DEC Emulation site more or less up to date, and have even expanded it to have a little coverage of other "Big Iron" emulation, but my Classic Computer site hasn't been touched in *years* (in fact I've a feeling I've not updated it this Millenium). Zane From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed May 10 20:32:47 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 18:32:47 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ Message-ID: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I've got an Indy that I would like to get working. The first thing I notice is a *slot* (in the plastic housing) for some sort of removable media (floppy?) but no corresponding drive inside. Is this intended for a floppy? Or, some other similar (physical) sized medium? I assume that whatever sort of drive it is, it uses a SCSI interface (I don't see any other provisions)? How is (whatever) *mounted*? There is a sled for hard disk in the "slot" below this but no obvious clues as to how to mount anything *above*! And, what sorts of add-ons (?) mate to the main board (I see what appear to be two daughtercard conectors). Lastly, is any of this worth playing with? Thanks! --don From mail at g-lenerz.de Wed May 10 21:03:00 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 04:03:00 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> Hello Don, Thursday, May 11, 2006, 3:32:47 AM, you wrote: > Is this intended for a floppy? Or, some other > similar (physical) sized medium? I assume that > whatever sort of drive it is, it uses a SCSI interface > (I don't see any other provisions)? the slot was used for the optional floptical drive. > How is (whatever) *mounted*? There is a sled for > hard disk in the "slot" below this but no obvious > clues as to how to mount anything *above*! The floptical is mounted in just another drivesled on top of the existing one. As far as I recall this requires that the drive doesn't have it's plastic front cover installed: http://storage.g-lenerz.de/images/sgistuff/indy-1601-drives.jpg > And, what sorts of add-ons (?) mate to the main > board (I see what appear to be two daughtercard > conectors). This the GIO32 bus. Some cards that could be installed on top of the graphics board were additional network/SCSI controllers or video options. > Lastly, is any of this worth playing with? Depends. If you are interested in UNIX workstations and haven't seen IRIX then probably yes. All in all it's -depending on the actual configuration- a decent 10+ year old machine which runs pretty silent und makes for example a fine X terminal. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 10 23:21:00 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 16:21:00 +1200 Subject: Building a RS-232 fiber converter? Message-ID: With the talk of 20mA converters, it reminds me to ask... is there a simple schematic for a basic RS-232 to fiber media converter? In the real world, I'd just pick a pair up at a Hamfest (or get a mate for the single-fiber AT&T converter I have at home)... here, though, with no planes due in for almost six months, it's make it or do without. I can harvest the ST-connector LEDs/phototransistors from a box of soon-to-be-discarded AUI-to-10BaseFL transceivers, and I do have enough MAX232-type chips that I can easily do it from a single supply... the question just becomes... what goes in the middle? The station here is wired with CAT5(e?) and fiber (mostly multimode, but some single mode)... it would be handy for me here to be able to have some remote serial thingies without depending on terminal servers/reverse telnet, etc.... just a small box with a DB25 or DE9 connected to another via fiber. 19200 bps would be great, but even 4800 bps would be better than nothing. Anyone have any ideas on how to construct such a beast? I can build pretty much anything from a schematic or even a napkin, but I'm not really a designer. If it's as simple as hooking an LED to the TTL output of a MAX232, and the phototransistor to the input of a MAX232, that'd be super, but I suspect that there might need to be a little more to it than that. Thanks for any input/direction/etc -ethan From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu May 11 01:40:54 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 01:40:54 -0500 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels Message-ID: Okay, so, I'm back to working on my /34. I think I made significant progress tonight. What's going on is, I've narrowed it down to low AC levels coming off the transformer. The printset and H7xx modules specify an incoming AC of 20-30v (printset says specifically 28v.) All lines coming off the transformer at P1 are reading a value of 10-15v. So that leaves two possibilities. It's either the transformer, or the AC input box. I'd like to test the levels coming out of the input box, but I wouldn't know where to go, as my understanding of electronics fades fast at this time of the night when I've been up since 07:00. Okay, so maybe I traced it back that far, it got more complicated, and it's late and I'm feeling lazy and hoping someone will throw me a bone here :) in any case, advice is always appreciated. toodles Julian From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu May 11 02:18:05 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:18:05 +0200 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0668172C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Julian, without looking at the diagram (I am at work now). True, the incoming *AC* voltage to the power bricks is some 22 V. I assume that P1 is the Molex connector that has (IIRC) 8 black wires which are 4 2-wire groups of the AC supply to the 4 bricks. In that case, measuring 10 to 15 Volt (AC) is rather low. The H744 (25A) or H7442 (32A) 5V bricks should work at 10-15 VAC input, but what will the AC input voltage do under load condition? Is the mains input voltage correct (what you get from the wall outlet). Careful! Does that match the spec of the PSU? - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe > Sent: donderdag 11 mei 2006 8:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels > > Okay, so, I'm back to working on my /34. I think I made > significant progress tonight. > > What's going on is, I've narrowed it down to low AC levels > coming off the transformer. The printset and H7xx modules > specify an incoming AC of 20-30v (printset says specifically > 28v.) All lines coming off the transformer at P1 are reading > a value of 10-15v. > > So that leaves two possibilities. It's either the > transformer, or the AC input box. > > I'd like to test the levels coming out of the input box, but > I wouldn't know where to go, as my understanding of > electronics fades fast at this time of the night when I've > been up since 07:00. > > Okay, so maybe I traced it back that far, it got more > complicated, and it's late and I'm feeling lazy and hoping > someone will throw me a bone here :) in any case, advice is > always appreciated. > > toodles > Julian > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Thu May 11 02:26:40 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:26:40 +0200 Subject: Building a RS-232 fiber converter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4462E730.20508@ais.fraunhofer.de> Ethan Dicks schrieb: > With the talk of 20mA converters, it reminds me to ask... is there a > simple schematic for a basic RS-232 to fiber media converter? In the > [...] > Anyone have any ideas on how to construct such a beast? I can build > pretty much anything from a schematic or even a napkin, but I'm not > really a designer. If it's as simple as hooking an LED to the TTL > output of a MAX232, and the phototransistor to the input of a MAX232, > that'd be super, but I suspect that there might need to be a little > more to it than that. > It *is* as simple as that (you don't use an LED and a phototransistor, but rather pairs of existing opto tranceivers, like the HFBR-04xx/14xx series from Agilent) - provided you just need TXD/RXD and software handshake. If you want full-blown hardware handshake with all modem lines you either result in a bundle of 5-10 fibres, or you multiplex/demultiplex these signals with a small microcontroller on every side. Holger From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 11 04:58:09 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:58:09 +1200 Subject: Building a RS-232 fiber converter? In-Reply-To: <4462E730.20508@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4462E730.20508@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On 5/11/06, Holger Veit wrote: > Ethan Dicks schrieb: > > ... is there a simple schematic for a basic RS-232 to fiber media converter? > > > > If it's as simple as hooking an LED to the TTL output of a MAX232, and the > > phototransistor to the input of a MAX232, that'd be super... > > > It *is* as simple as that (you don't use an LED and a phototransistor, > but rather pairs of > existing opto tranceivers, like the HFBR-04xx/14xx series from Agilent) As long as the opto tranceivers you are mentioning resemble the ones found in 10BaseFL transceivers. That's all I have to work with and the next plane isn't until late October. > - provided you just need TXD/RXD and software handshake. That's plenty. Actually, for the first project, just a one-way channel from a machine to a serial-interfaced LCD screen... it doesn't respond (no buttons, but I might want to add some later). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 11 05:25:03 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 22:25:03 +1200 Subject: Building a RS-232 fiber converter? In-Reply-To: <4462E730.20508@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4462E730.20508@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On 5/11/06, Holger Veit wrote: > It *is* as simple as that (you don't use an LED and a phototransistor, > but rather pairs of existing opto tranceivers, like the HFBR-04xx/14xx series from Agilent) Ding! Score! I have a Digi MIL-150 10BaseFL to 10Base10 converter here with a set of HP HFBR 1414T and HFBR-2416T optical units. Sounds like it won't be too hard to whip this up. Thanks for the help. -ethan From classiccmp at eco.li Thu May 11 06:00:24 2006 From: classiccmp at eco.li (Dan Kolb) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 12:00:24 +0100 Subject: Gauging interest for an idea I have - feedback please! :) In-Reply-To: <6d6501090605101658n467a61e3g5f790e350160381a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4462682E.1080308@update.uu.se> <6d6501090605101658n467a61e3g5f790e350160381a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060511110024.GE17580@hades.eco.li> On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 04:58:25PM -0700, Chris Halarewich wrote: > i didnt know we had a classiccmp irc :( more info please :) irc.freenode.net, channel #classiccmp Dan -- The idea is to die young as late as possible. -- Ashley Montague From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 11 09:20:20 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:20:20 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> Greetings! Gerhard Lenerz wrote: >> Is this intended for a floppy? Or, some other >> similar (physical) sized medium? I assume that >> whatever sort of drive it is, it uses a SCSI interface >> (I don't see any other provisions)? > > the slot was used for the optional floptical drive. > >> How is (whatever) *mounted*? There is a sled for >> hard disk in the "slot" below this but no obvious >> clues as to how to mount anything *above*! > > The floptical is mounted in just another drivesled on top of the > existing one. As far as I recall this requires that the drive doesn't > have it's plastic front cover installed: > > http://storage.g-lenerz.de/images/sgistuff/indy-1601-drives.jpg Ah, OK. This looks the same as what I have -- less the drive, of course. >> And, what sorts of add-ons (?) mate to the main >> board (I see what appear to be two daughtercard >> conectors). > > This the GIO32 bus. Some cards that could be installed on top of the > graphics board were additional network/SCSI controllers or video > options. I can't see any need (for *me*) for a second NIC -- at least not in *this* box. And, I can probably dangle an external CD, disk, etc. off the internal SCSI (via the HD50 connector on the back). Is it safe to assume that the "built in" video is "good enough"? Or, to get "good" video (wasn't SGI *known* for "good video"?) do I need to add something? >> Lastly, is any of this worth playing with? > > Depends. If you are interested in UNIX workstations and haven't seen > IRIX then probably yes. All in all it's -depending on the actual > configuration- a decent 10+ year old machine which runs pretty silent > und makes for example a fine X terminal. I am more interested in seeing what IRIX is like and the quality of the video and audio. I am not (as) concerned with speed. Thanks! --don From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 11 09:16:02 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:16:02 +0100 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44634722.8090203@yahoo.co.uk> Don Y wrote: > Lastly, is any of this worth playing with? An Indy with a R5k CPU and 24-bit graphics is pretty nice, and still a fun (and responsive) box to play with. IRIX 5.3's probably the best choice for it - later releases might be a bit too heavyweight. Most Indys I've seen just have the 8-bit framebuffer, though - and R4k CPUs are way more common (but still pretty capable, particularly if you get one with secondary cache) Overall, yes, they're darn good machines. cheers Jules From allain at panix.com Thu May 11 09:22:39 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:22:39 -0400 Subject: Gauging interest for an idea I have - feedback please! :) References: Message-ID: <005101c67506$5c433600$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Julian Wolfe proposed... Let's see, if there are 16 contributors and 4 articles needed per quarter that would be one a year per contributor. You could probably count me as one. John A. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 11 09:25:26 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:25:26 +0100 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44634956.9060200@yahoo.co.uk> Don Y wrote: > I can't see any need (for *me*) for a second NIC -- at least > not in *this* box. And, I can probably dangle an external > CD, disk, etc. off the internal SCSI (via the HD50 connector > on the back). SGI machines do seem a bit funny about which CDROM drives they'll work with, at least at OS installation time. I've seen several drives that work fine on SGI 4D machines but not on Indys, and vice-versa. (it goes without saying that you'll need a drive that'll do 512-byte blocks rather than the PC world's 2048 bytes) > Is it safe to assume that the "built in" > video is "good enough"? Even the standard 8-bit video's pretty responsive. I don't think Indys were ever aimed at *serious* video though; I think choices are limited unlike a lot of their bigger machines. They were more intended as affordable workstations that could act as visual front-ends to bigger and better SGI systems. cheers Jules From james.rice at gmail.com Thu May 11 09:42:11 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:42:11 -0500 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <44634956.9060200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> <44634956.9060200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 5/11/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > Don Y wrote: > > I can't see any need (for *me*) for a second NIC -- at least > > not in *this* box. And, I can probably dangle an external > > CD, disk, etc. off the internal SCSI (via the HD50 connector > > on the back). > > SGI machines do seem a bit funny about which CDROM drives they'll work with, > at least at OS installation time. I've seen several drives that work fine on > SGI 4D machines but not on Indys, and vice-versa. (it goes without saying that > you'll need a drive that'll do 512-byte blocks rather than the PC world's 2048 > bytes) > > > Is it safe to assume that the "built in" > > video is "good enough"? > > Even the standard 8-bit video's pretty responsive. I don't think Indys were > ever aimed at *serious* video though; I think choices are limited unlike a lot > of their bigger machines. They were more intended as affordable workstations > that could act as visual front-ends to bigger and better SGI systems. > > cheers > > Jules > I've been using some 12X and 24x SCSI Toshiba's on both of my Indy's (R4400 and R5000). I did have problems with the same drives on the Indigo's so I picked up a couple of old external Toshiba's (1x or 2x) that were the same vintage as the Indigo's. They seem to work well but they are the older caddy style drives. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers www.blackcube.org/personal/index.html - Personal web page From tarsi at binhost.com Thu May 11 09:50:10 2006 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Nathan E. Pralle) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:50:10 -0500 Subject: IBM NetStation 300 PSU Message-ID: <44634F22.5050802@binhost.com> Greetings. Picked up an IBM Network Station 300 from a surplus place yesterday for $5. Unfortunately, it doesn't come with a power brick and there's no markings as to the power requirements. Does anyone have one of these and can quick glance at the brick and tell me what the voltage is and the polarity? Much appreciated. Nathan -- ------------------------------------- Nathan E. Pralle www.nathanpralle.com ------------------------------------- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/334 - Release Date: 5/8/2006 From jplist at kiwigeek.com Thu May 11 10:03:17 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:03:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for a DSSI disk & cassette for a VAX 4000 Message-ID: Greetings all; Picked up a VAX 4000-300 just the other day, and as usual at surplus places, the disks were all stripped out. As well as the cassettes, naturally, the lazy sods. Anyways. Does anyone have a DSSI disk and VAX 4000 cassette they'd be willing to share? Thanks all; JP From drb at msu.edu Thu May 11 10:06:52 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:06:52 -0400 Subject: Looking for a DSSI disk & cassette for a VAX 4000 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 11 May 2006 10:03:17 CDT.) References: Message-ID: <200605111506.k4BF6q6D024866@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Picked up a VAX 4000-300 just the other day, and as usual at surplus > places, the disks were all stripped out. As well as the cassettes, > naturally, the lazy sods. Does anyone have a DSSI disk and VAX 4000 > cassette they'd be willing to share? FWIW, the part number for the whole assembly is 70-28087-02. And I could use some of these too, if someone has a stash. Two 4000-series machines in a row came without the frame and paddle board. (The second machine, which originally had drives in every bay of the CPU and a 400-series expansion, still has its bezels, but not the frames and paddles.) De From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 11 10:09:38 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:09:38 -0400 Subject: IBM NetStation 300 PSU In-Reply-To: <44634F22.5050802@binhost.com> References: <44634F22.5050802@binhost.com> Message-ID: <200605111109.39053.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 11 May 2006 10:50, Nathan E. Pralle wrote: > Greetings. > > Picked up an IBM Network Station 300 from a surplus place yesterday > for $5. Unfortunately, it doesn't come with a power brick and > there's no markings as to the power requirements. Does anyone have > one of these and can quick glance at the brick and tell me what the > voltage is and the polarity? It takes a standard IBM Thinkpad power brick. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bob at jfcl.com Thu May 11 10:20:37 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:20:37 -0700 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels Message-ID: <005701c6750e$7b1cba30$0201a8c0@GIZMO> >Julian Wolfe fireflyst at earthlink.net wrote: >All lines coming off the transformer at P1 are reading a value of 10-15v. These are about 1/2 the expected value, right? Are you running it on 110V when the transformer is wired for 220V input? Bob From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 11 11:11:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:11:43 -0600 Subject: Caddy CD-ROM drives (was: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 May 2006 09:42:11 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "James Rice" writes: > I've been using some 12X and 24x SCSI Toshiba's on both of my Indy's > (R4400 and R5000). I did have problems with the same drives on the > Indigo's so I picked up a couple of old external Toshiba's (1x or 2x) > that were the same vintage as the Indigo's. They seem to work well > but they are the older caddy style drives. Speaking of which... I never understood why CD-ROM drives used the caddy thing. Why not just use a tray like the drives have now? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 11 12:12:14 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Caddy CD-ROM drives (was: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060511100504.T7030@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 May 2006, Richard wrote: > Speaking of which... > I never understood why CD-ROM drives used the caddy thing. Why not > just use a tray like the drives have now? Most of the content media used to be fairly expensive. With the exception of shovel-ware, even trivial products were in the hundred-plus dollar range. The perception was that caddies would protect the valuable discs. Eventually it became clear that CDs could usually handle the level of abuse of users changing them in a tray. What was even funnier was that most libraries would dedicate a machine for each disc! Thus, a request to purchase any CD-ROM was budgeted as a complete system. They couldn't understand that that was like having a VCR for each VHS tape. I offered to donate a small collection to the college, but they couldn't "afford to buy that many more machines"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mail at g-lenerz.de Thu May 11 12:15:19 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 19:15:19 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <1459886823.20060511191519@g-lenerz.de> Hello Don, Thursday, May 11, 2006, 4:20:20 PM, you wrote: > I can't see any need (for *me*) for a second NIC -- at least > not in *this* box. And, I can probably dangle an external > CD, disk, etc. off the internal SCSI (via the HD50 connector > on the back). no real problems to be expected with that. > Is it safe to assume that the "built in" video is "good enough"? Depends. Assuming there is one large daughtercard installed towards the back of the machine and it *has* the two connectors on top (as shown in the picture) then it is either 24bit or 8bit XL graphics which is in any case pretty nice for 2D, but does not really do 3D in hardware. 8bit graphics isn't all too bad on SGIs unless you really need a lot of color. > Or, to get "good" video (wasn't SGI *known* for "good video"?) do I > need to add something? Talking of video I was thinking of for example S-Video / Composite Video In/Out for some more advance capturing and stuff like that. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 11 12:38:18 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:38:18 -0700 Subject: Caddy CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4463768A.9070309@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >In article , > "James Rice" writes: > > > > >I never understood why CD-ROM drives used the caddy thing. Why not >just use a tray like the drives have now? > > I believe that the DVD-RAM that pioneer pushed required a carrier, and it was done on those drives so that the same form factor carrier was used on both, read only and read/write. Jim From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 11 13:46:42 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:46:42 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <44634956.9060200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060511134642.13274286@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:25 PM 5/11/06 +0100, you wrote: >Don Y wrote: >> I can't see any need (for *me*) for a second NIC -- at least >> not in *this* box. And, I can probably dangle an external >> CD, disk, etc. off the internal SCSI (via the HD50 connector >> on the back). > >SGI machines do seem a bit funny about which CDROM drives they'll work with, >at least at OS installation time. I've seen several drives that work fine on >SGI 4D machines but not on Indys, and vice-versa. (it goes without saying that >you'll need a drive that'll do 512-byte blocks rather than the PC world's 2048 >bytes) SOME of the SGIs and SOME of the SUN computers suffer from the same problem. That is that they don't issue a command to the drive to set the number of bytes per sector but they expect to get X (256 IIRC) bytes/sector. IF the drive defaults to that then everything is fine. If it doesn't then the installation aborts with a read error. AFIK this only happens when you try to install the SW using the built-in ROM software. The complete running OS doesn't have this problem. Note that later SUNS and SGIs DO issue the proper command so you can use just about any drive with them. But if you're using the earlier computers then you need to use a drive that defaults to the correct number of bytes/sector. Some of the drives (Toshiba IIRC) have an undocumented jumper on them that allows you to change the default bytes/sector. Once you do, those drives will work fine. This is a KNOWN problem in the SUN IPCs but the later IPXs corrected this problem. Search the net and you'll find it documented with more specifics in several places. Joe > >> Is it safe to assume that the "built in" >> video is "good enough"? > >Even the standard 8-bit video's pretty responsive. I don't think Indys were >ever aimed at *serious* video though; I think choices are limited unlike a lot >of their bigger machines. They were more intended as affordable workstations >that could act as visual front-ends to bigger and better SGI systems. > >cheers > >Jules > From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu May 11 12:53:38 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:53:38 -0400 Subject: Caddy CD-ROM drives (was: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/) References: Message-ID: <006f01c67523$d5897b60$8c5c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 12:11 PM Subject: Caddy CD-ROM drives (was: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/) > > In article , > "James Rice" writes: > > > I've been using some 12X and 24x SCSI Toshiba's on both of my Indy's > > (R4400 and R5000). I did have problems with the same drives on the > > Indigo's so I picked up a couple of old external Toshiba's (1x or 2x) > > that were the same vintage as the Indigo's. They seem to work well > > but they are the older caddy style drives. > > Speaking of which... > > I never understood why CD-ROM drives used the caddy thing. Why not > just use a tray like the drives have now? > -- Early CDROM drives (and CDR drives) were expensive and the caddy system was rated at 2x or more insertions compared to other types. I guess they were under the impression that those drives would be used for a decade and should last a long time. Once CDROM speed started going up, prices started to drop, and trays became more reliable caddy drives disappeared. From allain at panix.com Thu May 11 13:02:33 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:02:33 -0400 Subject: Caddy CD-ROM drives References: <4463768A.9070309@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <049601c67525$14eaa6c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >> I never understood why CD-ROM drives used the caddy thing. Why not >> just use a tray like the drives have now? One imagines that they were invented for _Radio Stations_ for CD audio that had to be changed quickly and basically "thrown around" in heavy use. Nowadays they just use a big harddrive with menuselects. John A. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu May 11 13:09:01 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:09:01 -0500 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0668172C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0668172C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: I tested the wall outlet. It reads 125v. I used a ground tester and I can confirm the unit is getting a proper ground (which takes another undiscussed possibility out of the equation) To clarify, my H7441 bricks do indeed light up at least, and when they are on, testing the +15v lines from the open H754 connector yields the proper 14,9-15.1 volts, so those are definitely working OK when not under load. Another thought is, my AC input box is marked by DEC as being 120V. Could this have been adjusted for 220V, and if so, how would I be able to tell? On May 11, 2006, at 2:18 AM, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Hi Julian, > > without looking at the diagram (I am at work now). > True, the incoming *AC* voltage to the power bricks is some 22 V. > I assume that P1 is the Molex connector that has (IIRC) 8 black > wires which are 4 2-wire groups of the AC supply to the 4 bricks. > In that case, measuring 10 to 15 Volt (AC) is rather low. > The H744 (25A) or H7442 (32A) 5V bricks should work at 10-15 VAC > input, but what will the AC input voltage do under load condition? > > Is the mains input voltage correct (what you get from the wall > outlet). Careful! Does that match the spec of the PSU? > > - Henk. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe >> Sent: donderdag 11 mei 2006 8:41 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels >> >> Okay, so, I'm back to working on my /34. I think I made >> significant progress tonight. >> >> What's going on is, I've narrowed it down to low AC levels >> coming off the transformer. The printset and H7xx modules >> specify an incoming AC of 20-30v (printset says specifically >> 28v.) All lines coming off the transformer at P1 are reading >> a value of 10-15v. >> >> So that leaves two possibilities. It's either the >> transformer, or the AC input box. >> >> I'd like to test the levels coming out of the input box, but >> I wouldn't know where to go, as my understanding of >> electronics fades fast at this time of the night when I've >> been up since 07:00. >> >> Okay, so maybe I traced it back that far, it got more >> complicated, and it's late and I'm feeling lazy and hoping >> someone will throw me a bone here :) in any case, advice is >> always appreciated. >> >> toodles >> Julian >> >> > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of > the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, > confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible > for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the > sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. > Thank you for your cooperation. > > > From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 11 13:18:10 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:18:10 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <44634956.9060200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> <44634956.9060200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44637FE2.2040002@DakotaCom.Net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> I can't see any need (for *me*) for a second NIC -- at least >> not in *this* box. And, I can probably dangle an external >> CD, disk, etc. off the internal SCSI (via the HD50 connector >> on the back). > > SGI machines do seem a bit funny about which CDROM drives they'll work > with, at least at OS installation time. I've seen several drives that > work fine on SGI 4D machines but not on Indys, and vice-versa. (it goes > without saying that you'll need a drive that'll do 512-byte blocks > rather than the PC world's 2048 bytes) I think I should be OK, there. I've been through the same issue with Sun machines... :-( >> Is it safe to assume that the "built in" >> video is "good enough"? > > Even the standard 8-bit video's pretty responsive. I don't think Indys > were ever aimed at *serious* video though; I think choices are limited > unlike a lot of their bigger machines. They were more intended as > affordable workstations that could act as visual front-ends to bigger > and better SGI systems. Ah, OK. I know the VW320 is allegedly pretty capable. I had assumed this was a "family trait". :> I'll see once I get it running... From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 11 13:13:02 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:13:02 -0700 Subject: Caddy CD-ROM drives (was: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/) In-Reply-To: <006f01c67523$d5897b60$8c5c1941@game> References: <006f01c67523$d5897b60$8c5c1941@game> Message-ID: At 1:53 PM -0400 5/11/06, Teo Zenios wrote: >Early CDROM drives (and CDR drives) were expensive and the caddy system was >rated at 2x or more insertions compared to other types. I guess they were >under the impression that those drives would be used for a decade and should >last a long time. Once CDROM speed started going up, prices started to drop, >and trays became more reliable caddy drives disappeared. My first CD-ROM drive was an NEC that looks like a discman. My second was a tray loading 4x Panasonic (I still use this drive regularly as it's external SCSI and does 512-byte blocks). One of my favorite drives is the 8x SCSI Plextor caddy drive in my PDP-11/73. My other favorite is a 32x UW-SCSI Plextor in my DEC PWS 433au (running OpenVMS). I'm also rather fond of the 16x Plextor SCSI burner :^) I find the Caddy drive in the PDP-11 to be very useful as I have far more caddies than I do PDP-11 CD's. That way I just store the caddies in a CD storage rack, and slip them in the drive when I need one. BTW, I've used that Panasonic for over 10 years now. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 11 13:28:43 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:28:43 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <1459886823.20060511191519@g-lenerz.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> <1459886823.20060511191519@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <4463825B.70007@DakotaCom.Net> Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Hello Don, > > Thursday, May 11, 2006, 4:20:20 PM, you wrote: > >> I can't see any need (for *me*) for a second NIC -- at least >> not in *this* box. And, I can probably dangle an external >> CD, disk, etc. off the internal SCSI (via the HD50 connector >> on the back). > > no real problems to be expected with that. > >> Is it safe to assume that the "built in" video is "good enough"? > > Depends. Assuming there is one large daughtercard installed towards > the back of the machine and it *has* the two connectors on top (as > shown in the picture) then it is either 24bit or 8bit XL graphics > which is in any case pretty nice for 2D, but does not really do 3D in > hardware. 8bit graphics isn't all too bad on SGIs unless you really > need a lot of color. A large card ("Newport Graphics"?) but appears that 4 RAMs (?) were not populated at initial manufacture (which suggests it is a lower-end card?) >> Or, to get "good" video (wasn't SGI *known* for "good video"?) do I >> need to add something? > > Talking of video I was thinking of for example S-Video / Composite > Video In/Out for some more advance capturing and stuff like that. There are a bunch of connectors on the rear. One, I am told, is for a camera. Another RCA jack I assume is RS-170 (?) out. Another 4 pin mini-circular DIN is perhaps "camera control"? Aside from audio in, out, mic and headphones, there is something that appears (from the icon) to be "bidirectional audio"? And, an intriguing connector that suggests control for LCD glasses?? I assume the AUI connector shares the same network I/F as the RJ45? From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu May 11 13:32:35 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 20:32:35 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4463825B.70007@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: On 5/11/06 8:28 PM, Don Y wrote: > A large card ("Newport Graphics"?) but appears that 4 RAMs (?) > were not populated at initial manufacture (which suggests it > is a lower-end card?) Yeah. XL-8: 8-bit, non-accelerated video. > There are a bunch of connectors on the rear. One, I am told, is > for a camera. Another RCA jack I assume is RS-170 (?) out. > Another 4 pin mini-circular DIN is perhaps "camera control"? No, S-video. > Aside from audio in, out, mic and headphones, there is something > that appears (from the icon) to be "bidirectional audio"? Digital (S/P-DIF) audio I/O. > And, an intriguing connector that suggests control for LCD glasses?? Correct. > I assume the AUI connector shares the same network I/F as the > RJ45? Correct. You might want to read this: , or download the PDF version. ,xtG .tsooJ -- I got kicked out of Barnes & Noble once for moving all the bibles into the fiction section -- Joost van de Griek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 13:19:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 19:19:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at May 11, 6 01:40:54 am Message-ID: > > Okay, so, I'm back to working on my /34. I think I made significant > progress tonight. > > What's going on is, I've narrowed it down to low AC levels coming off > the transformer. The printset and H7xx modules specify an incoming > AC of 20-30v (printset says specifically 28v.) All lines coming off > the transformer at P1 are reading a value of 10-15v. I am working from memory, but IIRC there's a connector with 8 black wires that carries the transformer secodnary connections (4 windings, 2 wires per winding). It goes into the power distribution PCB, and each winding it then connected to one of the regulator 'bricks'. Now, you should see 20-30V _between the 2 wires going to a particular regulator_. Not between either wire and earth. If you measure the voltage between a particular wire and earth (logic 0V rail, case, whatever), then you'll see one of 2 things. 1) If there's no regulator connected to that winding, you'll measure 0V. The winding is electrically isolated from the rest of the machine 2) If there is a regulator connected, then each wire will swing between ground and the full secondary voltage at mains frequency, due to the action of the bridge rectifier in the 'brick'. Now, what that will appear at on your meter depends on the meter, but I could well believe some would average it out to half-voltage. So that's the first explanation, you're measuring the voltage between one end of the secondary and ground, not the voltage across the secondary. A second explation, if you are measuring the voltage across the secondary, and it's half what you expect, is that the primary windings are wired incorrectly. The power transgformer has 2 primary windings, rated at 115V each. For 115V mains, you connect them in parallel (taking care of the phase, of course!), for 230V mains you connect them in series (ditto). The primary windings go to a 4 pin connector that plugs into the front of the AC input box. There are 2 different AC input boxes, for 115V or 230V mains which connect the pins of that connector appropriately -- there are other internal changes relating to the mains switching contactor and its control supply. Is it possible that you have a 230V unit plugged into a 115V mains socket? > > So that leaves two possibilities. It's either the transformer, or > the AC input box. I thing it's very unlikely to be the transformer. Shorted turns would make it get hot and bothered very quickly. -tony From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu May 11 14:18:24 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:18:24 -0500 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony, responses to your statements are below, but as a general question to those who are helping me with this, is the H745 light supposed to come on if it's just connected to the power distribution board? i.e. am I supposed to se a light on with no load like the H7441s do? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 1:20 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: BA11-K low AC output levels > > > > > Okay, so, I'm back to working on my /34. I think I made > significant > > progress tonight. > > > > What's going on is, I've narrowed it down to low AC levels > coming off > > the transformer. The printset and H7xx modules specify an > incoming AC > > of 20-30v (printset says specifically 28v.) All lines > coming off the > > transformer at P1 are reading a value of 10-15v. > > I am working from memory, but IIRC there's a connector with 8 > black wires that carries the transformer secodnary > connections (4 windings, 2 wires per winding). It goes into > the power distribution PCB, and each winding it then > connected to one of the regulator 'bricks'. > > Now, you should see 20-30V _between the 2 wires going to a > particular regulator_. Not between either wire and earth. This could explain my reading. I was only measuring one wire at a time. Also, when I measure each of the 8 wires on P1 in sequence, one is slightly higher than the other, alternating between the 2. Secondly, when measuring off the power distribution board, I get the same type of reading for each regulator, one at 15-16v, one at 10-13v Not that it matters, but the thing that got me started on this path is that the H745 has two pins, who each say "20-30VAC" > > If you measure the voltage between a particular wire and > earth (logic 0V rail, case, whatever), then you'll see one of > 2 things. > > 1) If there's no regulator connected to that winding, you'll > measure 0V. > The winding is electrically isolated from the rest of the machine > > 2) If there is a regulator connected, then each wire will > swing between ground and the full secondary voltage at mains > frequency, due to the action of the bridge rectifier in the > 'brick'. Now, what that will appear at on your meter depends > on the meter, but I could well believe some would average it > out to half-voltage. > > So that's the first explanation, you're measuring the voltage > between one end of the secondary and ground, not the voltage > across the secondary. > > A second explation, if you are measuring the voltage across > the secondary, and it's half what you expect, is that the > primary windings are wired incorrectly. The power > transgformer has 2 primary windings, rated at 115V each. For > 115V mains, you connect them in parallel (taking care of the > phase, of course!), for 230V mains you connect them in series > (ditto). The primary windings go to a 4 pin connector that > plugs into the front of the AC input box. There are 2 > different AC input boxes, for 115V or 230V mains which > connect the pins of that connector appropriately -- there are > other internal changes relating to the mains switching > contactor and its control supply. Is it possible that you > have a 230V unit plugged into a 115V mains socket? > I highly doubt this as the AC input box is clearly marked 120V. > > > > > So that leaves two possibilities. It's either the > transformer, or the > > AC input box. > > I thing it's very unlikely to be the transformer. Shorted > turns would make it get hot and bothered very quickly. Wow, OK, so what is it then? This really has me stumped. Is it still possible I have an input box problem? > > -tony > > From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 11 14:44:42 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:44:42 -0400 Subject: IBM NetStation 300 PSU In-Reply-To: <200605111109.39053.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <44634F22.5050802@binhost.com> <200605111109.39053.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4463942A.3080501@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 11 May 2006 10:50, Nathan E. Pralle wrote: >> Greetings. >> >> Picked up an IBM Network Station 300 from a surplus place yesterday >> for $5. Unfortunately, it doesn't come with a power brick and >> there's no markings as to the power requirements. Does anyone have >> one of these and can quick glance at the brick and tell me what the >> voltage is and the polarity? > > It takes a standard IBM Thinkpad power brick. 16V 4.5A CTP, if I'm not quite mistaken. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 11 15:37:09 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:37:09 -0500 Subject: Linux UCSD filesystem Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060511153421.058d7af8@mail> >From the Yahoo UCSD Pascal list: From: "pmiller42au" X-Yahoo-Profile: pmiller42au Sender: UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com; contact UCSDPascal-owner at yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:02:28 -0000 Subject: [UCSDPascal] Annouce: ucsd-psystem-fs-1.1 - Linux filesystem Reply-To: UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pc.threedee.com id k4BDGwW10776 Status: I am pleasd to announce the first public release of ucsd-psystem-fs, a package for mounting UCSD p-System disk imags as Linux file systems. Please visit http://miller.emu.id.au/pmiller/ucsd-psystem-fs/ for more information and file downloads. (I have been trying to put it on SourceForge.net for the last week, but their new project registration review process seems to be constipated.) Regards Peter Miller From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 11 17:17:22 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Junk In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060511153421.058d7af8@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060511153421.058d7af8@mail> Message-ID: <20060511151420.S22634@shell.lmi.net> A coworker mentioned having an RS600 and some 386,486 servers to get rid of. Should I follow up? Also, the CIS department is discarding a bunch of old books. Stuff like Word for Windows manual, and a metric buttload of Oracle 8 stuff. (that's too new, isn't it?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Berkeley, CA From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 11 17:28:30 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 18:28:30 -0400 Subject: Junk In-Reply-To: <20060511151420.S22634@shell.lmi.net> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060511153421.058d7af8@mail> <20060511151420.S22634@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4463BA8E.8090504@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > A coworker mentioned having an RS600 and some 386,486 servers to get rid > of. > Should I follow up? > > > Also, the CIS department is discarding a bunch of old books. > Stuff like Word for Windows manual, and a metric buttload of Oracle 8 > stuff. (that's too new, isn't it?) RS600? Do you mean RS/6000? Or TRS-80 Model 6000? If so, it couldn't hurt to find out what kind. Peace... Sridhar From mail at g-lenerz.de Thu May 11 18:12:28 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 01:12:28 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4463825B.70007@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> <1459886823.20060511191519@g-lenerz.de> <4463825B.70007@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <69900177.20060512011228@g-lenerz.de> Thursday, May 11, 2006, 8:28:43 PM, you wrote: > A large card ("Newport Graphics"?) but appears that 4 RAMs (?) > were not populated at initial manufacture (which suggests it > is a lower-end card?) Newport is XL graphics. If there is free space where memory would fit then it is 8bit otherwise 24 bit. You could also try and google up the part number (the 030-xxxx-yyy number). > There are a bunch of connectors on the rear. One, I am told, is > for a camera. Another RCA jack I assume is RS-170 (?) out. > Another 4 pin mini-circular DIN is perhaps "camera control"? Sounds like pretty standard. The 4 pin mini DIN connector located near to the RCA jack is S-Video input. The strange connector left of that one (just before the ISDN port) is for the IndyCam. Standard graphics output is 1280*1024 and if possible 72 Hz using Sync-On-Green. Should work fine with any SOG capable display. > Aside from audio in, out, mic and headphones, there is something > that appears (from the icon) to be "bidirectional audio"? Hmmm... right now I'm not sure about that one. I never really bothered too much with audio functions. > And, an intriguing connector that suggests control for LCD glasses?? Yup. > I assume the AUI connector shares the same network I/F as the > RJ45? Indeed. You can use either of the two but not both at the same time. I *think* if RJ45 is used, the AUI port is disabled. Regarding CD-ROM drives I wouldn't give too many thoughts about that problem. I usually use a variety of 32x and 40x Plextors with my old SGIs including a batch of Indy and Indigo 2 systems as well as even older iron. No unexpected troubles... so far. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 18:34:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 00:34:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at May 11, 6 02:18:24 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, responses to your statements are below, but as a general question to > those who are helping me with this, is the H745 light supposed to come on if > it's just connected to the power distribution board? i.e. am I supposed to > se a light on with no load like the H7441s do? Yes, you are. The lamp is simply connected across the output of the regulator -- that is between the output line and ground. It'll light up if the regulator is working. > > Now, you should see 20-30V _between the 2 wires going to a > > particular regulator_. Not between either wire and earth. > > This could explain my reading. I was only measuring one wire at a time. That might well explain it. Try measuring the AC voltage between the 2 wires at each regulator labelled '20-30V AC'. That is, connect one lead of your voltmeter to one of the wires, the other lead to the other wire. > Not that it matters, but the thing that got me started on this path is that > the H745 has two pins, who each say "20-30VAC" Yes, it's somewhat confusing. It means you need to connect 20-30V AC between those 2 pins. The printset should show how the transformer is connected (note that there are no connections to the secondary windings other than to these regulator bricks, there are no grounds, no taps connected to ground, etc). And the prints of the regulator should justify _why_ you connect it like that. From what I remember, those to pins go to the AC terminals of a bridge rectifier, the output of which goes to a large smoothing capacitor. And at least for the +5V brick, one side of that capacitor is then grounded. > > contactor and its control supply. Is it possible that you > > have a 230V unit plugged into a 115V mains socket? > > > I highly doubt this as the AC input box is clearly marked 120V. OK. Converting one to the other is possible, in that the metal frame is the same apart from the markings on it. But there are several internal wiring changes, I think the little intenral transformer and the contactor are replaced, etc. I don't think it's likely this has happened. You could try looking at the wiring to the socket where the transformer primary is connected (IIRC this is a 4 pin connector on the front side of the input box). Does it look as though the windings are in parallel (wires from the contactor each go to 2 pins on that connector), or in series (wires from the contactor go to 1 pin each, the remaing 2 pins are linked but not connected to anything else)? The former is 115V, the later 230V. > Wow, OK, so what is it then? This really has me stumped. > > Is it still possible I have an input box problem? See above. I don't think there's anything wrong with the PSU at all. Just that you're not measuring the voltage you think you're measuring. -tony From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu May 11 19:12:49 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 19:12:49 -0500 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're right. Somehow when I reassembled the power supply when I wasn't testing it (just put it back together to move it out of the way)I put the H745 in the WRONG SIDE. Therefore, I have it now hooked up to the battery backup plug. Duh, duh, and, more duh. :p Needless to say I'm going to be starting all over when I get home. Thanks for all your help in my chasing shadows. Julian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:34 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: BA11-K low AC output levels > > > > > Tony, responses to your statements are below, but as a general > > question to those who are helping me with this, is the H745 light > > supposed to come on if it's just connected to the power > distribution > > board? i.e. am I supposed to se a light on with no load > like the H7441s do? > > Yes, you are. The lamp is simply connected across the output > of the regulator -- that is between the output line and > ground. It'll light up if the regulator is working. > > > > Now, you should see 20-30V _between the 2 wires going to a > > > particular regulator_. Not between either wire and earth. > > > > This could explain my reading. I was only measuring one > wire at a time. > > That might well explain it. > > Try measuring the AC voltage between the 2 wires at each > regulator labelled '20-30V AC'. That is, connect one lead of > your voltmeter to one of the wires, the other lead to the other wire. > > > Not that it matters, but the thing that got me started on > this path is > > that the H745 has two pins, who each say "20-30VAC" > > Yes, it's somewhat confusing. It means you need to connect > 20-30V AC between those 2 pins. The printset should show how > the transformer is connected (note that there are no > connections to the secondary windings other than to these > regulator bricks, there are no grounds, no taps connected to > ground, etc). And the prints of the regulator should justify > _why_ you connect it like that. From what I remember, those > to pins go to the AC terminals of a bridge rectifier, the > output of which goes to a large smoothing capacitor. And at > least for the +5V brick, one side of that capacitor is then grounded. > > > > > contactor and its control supply. Is it possible that you have a > > > 230V unit plugged into a 115V mains socket? > > > > > I highly doubt this as the AC input box is clearly marked 120V. > > OK. Converting one to the other is possible, in that the > metal frame is the same apart from the markings on it. But > there are several internal wiring changes, I think the little > intenral transformer and the contactor are replaced, etc. I > don't think it's likely this has happened. > > You could try looking at the wiring to the socket where the > transformer primary is connected (IIRC this is a 4 pin > connector on the front side of the input box). Does it look > as though the windings are in parallel (wires from the > contactor each go to 2 pins on that connector), or in series > (wires from the contactor go to 1 pin each, the remaing 2 > pins are linked but not connected to anything else)? The > former is 115V, the later 230V. > > > Wow, OK, so what is it then? This really has me stumped. > > > > Is it still possible I have an input box problem? > > See above. I don't think there's anything wrong with the PSU > at all. Just that you're not measuring the voltage you think > you're measuring. > > -tony > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu May 11 19:22:08 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 19:22:08 -0500 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ Message-ID: <956e4a4b5b06439e9f3af8110011613f@valleyimplants.com> The ARCS machines (IP19, IP22 and above) are very forgiving as far as type of CD-ROM drive, I've used Toshiba and Apples just fine on mine. Older 4D machines needed some firmware tweaks that made the drive look like a fixed disk for the initial SASH load from PROM. The "video" thing on SGIs is substantially different from PCs. What is called "video" in PCs is called "graphics" in SGIs (and many other workstations). SGI graphics are very good, even 8-bit Indy. The video addons were for video feeds, and included Indy Video and Cosmo Compress boards. Stock Indys shipped with video-input (composite, S-video, and proprietary digital), but no output. Indy Video provided this. Disk bandwidth is not great enough to capture full motion/screen video to disk without the Cosmo Compress card. Both options are expensive, if you want to edit video get a Mac with FireWire. Sound is quite good, and includes digital I/O (but not S/PDIF- for that you need an Octane). I'd recommend IRIX 6.2- it's fast on older hardware, 64-bit (but the Indy isn't quite- it will still run N32, though, which 5.3 won't), and has POSIX compliance via patches. IDF/IDL can be downloaded, and GCC 3.4 is pretty decent on MIPS hardware. Building software on 6.2 is less "informative" than 5.3, also. In any case, a good set of electronic manuals ships on the distro media, as well as being available from techpubs on SGIs website. Gotchas- don't set anything to SCSI ID0 - that's the controller on SGI machines. Enjoy your new toy- you'll probably start saving up money for an Octane. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu May 11 20:44:24 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 20:44:24 -0500 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Disregard this, I didn't have it on the wrong side. I was viewing the diagram wrong. I forgot that the diagram says the H754/784 AC input connectors are white :p > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:13 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: BA11-K low AC output levels > > You're right. Somehow when I reassembled the power supply > when I wasn't testing it (just put it back together to move > it out of the way)I put the > H745 in the WRONG SIDE. Therefore, I have it now hooked up > to the battery backup plug. > Duh, duh, and, more duh. :p > > Needless to say I'm going to be starting all over when I get home. > > Thanks for all your help in my chasing shadows. > > Julian > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:34 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: BA11-K low AC output levels > > > > > > > > Tony, responses to your statements are below, but as a general > > > question to those who are helping me with this, is the H745 light > > > supposed to come on if it's just connected to the power > > distribution > > > board? i.e. am I supposed to se a light on with no load > > like the H7441s do? > > > > Yes, you are. The lamp is simply connected across the output of the > > regulator -- that is between the output line and ground. > It'll light > > up if the regulator is working. > > > > > > Now, you should see 20-30V _between the 2 wires going to a > > > > particular regulator_. Not between either wire and earth. > > > > > > This could explain my reading. I was only measuring one > > wire at a time. > > > > That might well explain it. > > > > Try measuring the AC voltage between the 2 wires at each regulator > > labelled '20-30V AC'. That is, connect one lead of your > voltmeter to > > one of the wires, the other lead to the other wire. > > > > > Not that it matters, but the thing that got me started on > > this path is > > > that the H745 has two pins, who each say "20-30VAC" > > > > Yes, it's somewhat confusing. It means you need to connect > 20-30V AC > > between those 2 pins. The printset should show how the > transformer is > > connected (note that there are no connections to the secondary > > windings other than to these regulator bricks, there are no > grounds, > > no taps connected to ground, etc). And the prints of the regulator > > should justify _why_ you connect it like that. From what I > remember, > > those to pins go to the AC terminals of a bridge rectifier, > the output > > of which goes to a large smoothing capacitor. And at least > for the +5V > > brick, one side of that capacitor is then grounded. > > > > > > > > contactor and its control supply. Is it possible that > you have a > > > > 230V unit plugged into a 115V mains socket? > > > > > > > I highly doubt this as the AC input box is clearly marked 120V. > > > > OK. Converting one to the other is possible, in that the > > metal frame is the same apart from the markings on it. But > > there are several internal wiring changes, I think the little > > intenral transformer and the contactor are replaced, etc. I > > don't think it's likely this has happened. > > > > You could try looking at the wiring to the socket where the > > transformer primary is connected (IIRC this is a 4 pin > > connector on the front side of the input box). Does it look > > as though the windings are in parallel (wires from the > > contactor each go to 2 pins on that connector), or in series > > (wires from the contactor go to 1 pin each, the remaing 2 > > pins are linked but not connected to anything else)? The > > former is 115V, the later 230V. > > > > > Wow, OK, so what is it then? This really has me stumped. > > > > > > Is it still possible I have an input box problem? > > > > See above. I don't think there's anything wrong with the PSU > > at all. Just that you're not measuring the voltage you think > > you're measuring. > > > > -tony > > > > > From evan at snarc.net Thu May 11 21:14:06 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 22:14:06 -0400 Subject: One last reminder ... VCF East this weekend Message-ID: <002801c67569$bfc173a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> The last reminder, I promise ... VCF East 3.0 is this Saturday (one day this year, not two) at the InfoAge Learning Center in Wall, New Jersey. The hours are 9:30AM-6:30PM. Tickets are $10 for adults and $7 for ages 13 and younger. We've got 18 exhibitors, five guest speakers (including Creative Computing founder David Ahl and former ARPA director Steve Lukasik), and some prizes available (like the Replica 1 kit and the Digi-Comp kit.) All the details are posted at http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/ ... Our sponsoring club is a non-profit group, so do yourself and us a favor and check out the show. - Evan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 11 21:43:02 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 03:43:02 +0100 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <69900177.20060512011228@g-lenerz.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> <1459886823.20060511191519@g-lenerz.de> <4463825B.70007@DakotaCom.Net> <69900177.20060512011228@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <4463F636.3090401@yahoo.co.uk> Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Thursday, May 11, 2006, 8:28:43 PM, you wrote: > >> A large card ("Newport Graphics"?) but appears that 4 RAMs (?) >> were not populated at initial manufacture (which suggests it >> is a lower-end card?) > > Newport is XL graphics. If there is free space where memory would fit > then it is 8bit otherwise 24 bit. You could also try and google up the > part number (the 030-xxxx-yyy number). I seem to remember that it is possible to turn an 8-bit board into a 24-bit one if you fancy some surface-mount soldering and have a couple of surplus 8-bit boards for the chips... (Pete Turnbull will know more; I believe he's got a board that he put together in such a way) > The strange connector left of that one (just before the ISDN port) is for > the IndyCam. Oh, the shells on those Indycam connectors are pretty flimsy - although it's a D shape they *will* fit on upside down! Luckily I didn't fry anything when I made that mistake once, but it took me a while to work out why a known-good camera wasn't working... :-) > Regarding CD-ROM drives I wouldn't give too many thoughts about that > problem. I usually use a variety of 32x and 40x Plextors with my old > SGIs including a batch of Indy and Indigo 2 systems as well as even > older iron. No unexpected troubles... so far. Yes, Indys are probably a little less picky than 4D or Indigo machines. It's just a FYI really - I seem to recall that if you have an incompatible drive then the install semi-works before dying (which tends to make it appear more like a media fault or user error than a hardware problem) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 11 21:50:16 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 03:50:16 +0100 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <956e4a4b5b06439e9f3af8110011613f@valleyimplants.com> References: <956e4a4b5b06439e9f3af8110011613f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <4463F7E8.6050100@yahoo.co.uk> Scott Quinn wrote: > Disk bandwidth is not great enough to capture full motion/screen video to disk without > the Cosmo Compress card. Has anyone ever tried a wide SCSI controller in the same physical machine as the framebuffer? I don't think it'll work without case mods to make it all physically fit, but I have no idea if it works from a software point of view... I'm thinking that we've got a dead Challenge-S machine with a wide SCSI board in it (where the framebuffer in a normal Indy would be)- I don't think there are pass-through bus connectors on the SCSI board, but I *think* there are on a framebuffer board, so the framebuffer could go below and the SCSI board above it... cheers Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 11 22:06:58 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 23:06:58 -0400 Subject: Dayton Hamvention In-Reply-To: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> Message-ID: <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 28 April 2006 23:28, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I just got a package from Hamvention with my spaces ... I'll be in > 3127 and 3128. My plans are still to arrive on Thursday night and > show up early on Friday morning to set up and check out the other > flea market sellers. I *finally* got mine today (more than 3 weeks after I bought the tickets/spaces)... spaces 3214 and 3215. I'm planning on getting there Thursday, and doing some setup Thursday night so I don't have to be up quite so early Friday. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu May 11 23:19:25 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 00:19:25 -0400 Subject: ISA Video Capture References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> Not sure if I am the only one interested in old video capture gear on the list. Anyway I won some old Optibase ISA video capture cards on ebay (MPG-4000 and PC Motion 1993 vintage I believe) and was wondering if anybody has any information on them and maybe drivers. I emailed the company a few days ago and no word yet (doesn't look like they support anything that old anymore). They seem to be MPEG1 boards and one card has dual DSP's with heatsinks and fans (have not received them yet). If anybody else is into vintage analog video capture let me know, I mostly deal with PC and 68K Macs (10 years old or older to be ontopic). From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 12 01:00:11 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 01:00:11 -0500 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions Message-ID: <9cb6baea85b94a29b46d9d5f17dc5162@valleyimplants.com> >> A large card ("Newport Graphics"?) but appears that 4 RAMs (?) >>were not populated at initial manufacture (which suggests it >>is a lower-end card?) >Yeah. XL-8: 8-bit, non-accelerated video. Not really "non-accelerated", just without geometry or a Z-buffer. XL video is (of its generation) the fastest at 2-D tasks, noticeably faster than XZ. Not sure against Extreme (you still have the pipeline overhead, but 2 REs on GU1). In addition to the extra VRAM, there are several ASICs that are unstuffed on XL8- possibly colormaps, I can't remember right now. The chip under the heatsink is a REX-3 raster engine. It takes care of everything that "accelerated graphics cards" for the PC did and more. The CPU takes care of geometry and Z-buffer, coordinates are sent to the card for raster operations. On the back: the RCA is composite-in, the mini-DIN is S-VHS (Y/C) in. The "bidirectional audio" is digital I/O Jules Richardson wrote >Has anyone ever tried a wide SCSI controller in the same physical machine as >the framebuffer? I don't think it'll work without case mods to make it all >physically fit, but I have no idea if it works from a software point of view... > >I'm thinking that we've got a dead Challenge-S machine with a wide SCSI board >in it (where the framebuffer in a normal Indy would be)- I don't think there >are pass-through bus connectors on the SCSI board, but I *think* there are on >a framebuffer board, so the framebuffer could go below and the SCSI board >above it... I believe there are wide SCSI GIO32 cards out there. I've never worked with a Challenge, but in the Indy the mainboard -> graphics is a modified-connector GIO-64, the expansion bus on top of the framebuffer is GIO32-bis. I have no idea how they break up the channels (Indy can have 2xGIO32 + GIO64 graphics, whereas Indigo2 is limited to 2xGIO64 whatevers). I2 would likely work out of the box, since there are the 2x Fast-SCSI channels available. Of course, what they wanted you to do is buy an Onyx . . . (I suspect that this is why the genlock disappeared when they moved from Express to IMPACT graphics in the Indigo2) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 12 01:07:53 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:07:53 +1200 Subject: Anyone have a cache of Vaisala docs? Message-ID: I am cleaning out a box of old gear here and ran across an interesting doo-dad... a Vaisala "MPT 11" - what seems to be a "manual papertape reader" - smallish PCB with a U-shaped plastic tape guide for what I think is reading in the calibration papertapes for Vaisala sondes (when launching a balloon, certain models of sonde have a papertape in each one that gets fed into the telemetry box prior to launching). I googled for a few references, but only turned up part numbers, no technical docs. Not really surprising for embedded stuff from 1999. There are other things in the crate - what look to be single-Euroconnector-attached boards with embedded GPS receivers, etc. (also from 1999). One CPU board looks to have an 8031 at 7.mumble MHz, and there's a DC-to-DC converter or two on the same sized boards. Probably from a rack-mounted telemetry box they used to have around here. I also have small box of the GPS units from the sondes themselves - helical copper wire antenna sticking out of an RF shielded board. There's a 3 or 4 wire interface, two leads of which go to an 8-pin SMT 78L05, so power should be easy to trace, the remaining lead or two is going to be some format of serial data, probably TTL, the only question is what format the data are in. If anyone has or knows of a Vaisala technical docs repository, I'd love to hear about it. Thanks, -ethan From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 12 01:30:01 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 01:30:01 -0500 Subject: NEC SilentWriter 95 bits Message-ID: <59e6f17321a74450a05de235c65f2eb1@valleyimplants.com> I have some bits from a NEC SilentWriter 95 laser printer if there is any interest a fax adapter board to allow it to receive faxes 1x memory SIMM PostScript ROM board Not sure if there is any interest, but they're here and free. Renton (Seattle) area. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 12 02:19:41 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:19:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/" (May 12, 3:43) References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> <1459886823.20060511191519@g-lenerz.de> <4463825B.70007@DakotaCom.Net> <69900177.20060512011228@g-lenerz.de> <4463F636.3090401@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <10605120819.ZM892@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 12 2006, 3:43, Jules Richardson wrote: > Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > > Thursday, May 11, 2006, 8:28:43 PM, you wrote: > > > >> A large card ("Newport Graphics"?) but appears that 4 RAMs (?) > >> were not populated at initial manufacture (which suggests it > >> is a lower-end card?) > > > > Newport is XL graphics. If there is free space where memory would fit > > then it is 8bit otherwise 24 bit. You could also try and google up the > > part number (the 030-xxxx-yyy number). > > I seem to remember that it is possible to turn an 8-bit board into a 24-bit > one if you fancy some surface-mount soldering and have a couple of surplus > 8-bit boards for the chips... > > (Pete Turnbull will know more; I believe he's got a board that he put together > in such a way) Yes, I have a couple. When I got my own card back from an upgrade, I set about working out what was changed, so one of the techs at work could do a few more -- we had a lot of spare Indys at the time. You can see the results on my friend James Carter's webpage: http://www.jfc.org.uk/documents/indy_gfx.html The pictures, by the way, are from James' IndyCam :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 12 02:27:39 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:27:39 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Thu, 11 May 2006 04:03:00 +0200 Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > This the GIO32 bus. Some cards that could be installed on top of the > graphics board were additional network/SCSI controllers or video > options. I have a FDDI board in my Indy to get nice and fast 100 MBit/s network... As we are talking of Indys: What is the max. SIMM size for the Indy? I had 8 x 32 MB in mine. I got some 64 MB SIMMs so I threw them into the Indy to get even more RAM. But the Indy saw only 4 x 16 MB instead of 4 x 64 MB. The SIMMs worked well in a Indigo2 R10k but showed the same problem in a Indigo2 R4k. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 12 04:56:07 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:56:07 +1200 Subject: Dayton Hamvention In-Reply-To: <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 5/12/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 28 April 2006 23:28, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I just got a package from Hamvention with my spaces ... I'll be in > > 3127 and 3128.i > I *finally* got mine today (more than 3 weeks after I bought the > tickets/spaces)... spaces 3214 and 3215. *sigh*... see you guys in 2007. :-/ -ethan From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri May 12 12:07:16 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:07:16 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <1473614481.20060512190716@g-lenerz.de> Friday, May 12, 2006, 9:27:39 AM, you wrote: > I have a FDDI board in my Indy to get nice and fast 100 MBit/s > network... I've got one of these in my Challenge S and two more for my Indigo 2s. But alas, I currently don't have the appropriate cabling on the external side complete. > As we are talking of Indys: What is the max. SIMM size for the Indy? 32MB. I think there won't be a trick as there is with R10K Indivo 2s. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 12 09:34:15 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:34:15 Subject: FA: Winchester Systems Flashdisk OpenRAID system In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060507112435.35e7af76@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060506220511.3f3f1938@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060506222248.4b0f2174@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060507112435.35e7af76@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060512093415.34d778e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Bill, I'd like to get $600 plus shipping. That's what the drives alone are worth. Actually I'd LIKE to get more than that but I guess that's not going to happen. It's marked LVD/SE and that's what the specs for the drives say also. Joe At 03:07 PM 5/10/06 -0400, you wrote: >You interested in selling the whole unit? >If so -- for how much. >I assume it's SCSI LVD interface... is it marked SCSI Differential? > >Bill > >On Sun, 07 May 2006 11:24:35, Joe R. wrote: >> >> Well I didn't get any replies about this device but what I've been able >> to figure out it looks like a hell of a drive system! But it doesn't look >> anything that I need so I've put it on E-bay. If anyone is interested in a >> FAST drive subsystem, check it out. >> >> >> Joe >> >> > From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri May 12 14:07:55 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:07:55 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> I need some help from those who are a lot better than I in hardware design... The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. By my rough calculations and allowing for wiggle room, I'd need a 20-watt power resistor of 1.5 ohms to keep the critter happy. "Bare minimum" is 15W, and I could squeak by with that if I wire the fan to the 5V line instead of the 12V... but even when I'm expected to perform a "miracle" I like to have a little wiggle-room. ;-) Problems I have are: 1) I need this by Monday, and 2) I don't keep 20-watt power resistors in my back pocket. Had I a week, I'd just order the right tool for the job - I don't have that luxury. ;-) I was thinking I *might* be able to cobble up enough lower-end power resistors & figure out how to stuff 'em together to draw 15w+ of power, but then I thought: What if I took an older 5V CPU (say... an 80486) and wired 'er up to just Vcc & Ground - how much power would that use? [[ I've started some google searches & I will continue, but I was hoping others here would have better ideas than my lame-azz neurons & google so far ]] I could also wire-wrap all the address/data lines to Vcc if that would add a enough extra current draw to make 'er worth my while... For those who are in lust with the "older, but still plentiful" CPUs like that, then turn away now, you didn't see this, I was never here." ;-) Any ideas will be most appreciated! Thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri May 12 14:39:09 2006 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:39:09 -0500 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... Message-ID: <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > From: Roger Merchberger > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. How about a light bulb? I'd try a bulb for an automotive brake light. If one's not enough, you could connect a few in parallel. If you find the 6V variety, it might work even better, but you should at least draw some reasonable current with the 12V ones. If you really wanted to have fun, you could try a headlight... BLS From drb at msu.edu Fri May 12 14:51:43 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:51:43 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 12 May 2006 14:39:09 CDT.) <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200605121951.k4CJpiPl012787@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. > > How about a light bulb? I'd try a bulb for an automotive brake light. > If one's not enough, you could connect a few in parallel. If you > find the 6V variety, it might work even better, but you should at > least draw some reasonable current with the 12V ones. If you really > wanted to have fun, you could try a headlight... Or get thee to a shop and obtain three 5 watt 4.8 ohm resistors, and wire them in parallel. Assuming my feeble grasp of basic electronics hasn't gone scurrying down the nearest rat-hole (which is likely). De From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri May 12 15:01:55 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:01:55 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bells outh.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512155341.03c84e98@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Brian L. Stuart may have mentioned these words: > > From: Roger Merchberger > > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. > >How about a light bulb? I was thinking of that (and was also suggested by a cow-orker) but I was unsure about how to handle the function of variable resistance WRT heat dissipation; and also, if a bulb fails, it fails open-circuit which means there's no more voltage regulation. I suppose with enough bulbs, one could build enough redundancy into the system... I may hit an auto-parts store tomorrow anyway and see what I can scare up; but having ready access to several CPUs (2 each 80486SX's & a P75 Overdrive on a quick search) I figured that a 5V CPU would be a good way to dissipate power from a 5V source, and the 486 would prolly have the highest current draw of any easily available 5V processor. But again, I could very well be wrong... No, I'm *not* using any of my 6809s!!! ;-) Thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri May 12 15:08:57 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:08:57 -0700 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <200605121951.k4CJpiPl012787@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <200605121951.k4CJpiPl012787@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4464EB59.1090008@msm.umr.edu> Dennis Boone wrote: > > > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > > > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > > > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. > > > what happens when you hook up some extra IDE drives? I have never had them fail to come up with a couple of extra IDE drives hooked up. I don't recall what the Dale resitors were in the boxes IBM used to ship in the extra drive bay, but they were sufficient on their own to load the supply. It didn't take the motherboard on those original 130 watt IBM supplies to start them, just the drive bay load resistor. Jim From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri May 12 15:09:41 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:09:41 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <200605121951.k4CJpiPl012787@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <(Your message of Fri, 12 May 2006 14:39:09 CDT.) <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512160221.04d70458@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dennis Boone may have mentioned these words: > > > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > > > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > > > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. > > > > How about a light bulb? I'd try a bulb for an automotive brake light. > > If one's not enough, you could connect a few in parallel. If you > > find the 6V variety, it might work even better, but you should at > > least draw some reasonable current with the 12V ones. If you really > > wanted to have fun, you could try a headlight... > >Or get thee to a shop and obtain three 5 watt 4.8 ohm resistors, >and wire them in parallel. And can you get them at RatShack? That's the only "parts shop" I have access to within driving distance (and by driving distance I mean 100 miles in any direction whilst staying in the U.S. No, I haven't had a chance to go get a $*#&#@^ passport just to go to Canada!!! :-/ ) - With their current slogan of "You have questions, we have stupid looks & cellphones" I doubt they carry anything of worth, let alone 5W power resistors... However, I suppose I could go look... Thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri May 12 15:05:52 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:05:52 -0400 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 12 May 2006 03:27 am, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 11 May 2006 04:03:00 +0200 > > Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > > This the GIO32 bus. Some cards that could be installed on top of the > > graphics board were additional network/SCSI controllers or video > > options. > > I have a FDDI board in my Indy to get nice and fast 100 MBit/s > network... > > As we are talking of Indys: What is the max. SIMM size for the Indy? > I had 8 x 32 MB in mine. I got some 64 MB SIMMs so I threw them into the > Indy to get even more RAM. But the Indy saw only 4 x 16 MB instead of 4 > x 64 MB. The SIMMs worked well in a Indigo2 R10k but showed the same > problem in a Indigo2 R4k. I ran across that same problem with some of my stuff, and it turned out that in at least one case the issue wasn't so much the size of the ram as it was the type -- if the board is expecting EDO and you put SDRAM in there (or maybe that was the other way around?) you'll see just that sort of a response... Might be worth a shot, anyhow. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri May 12 15:08:14 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:08:14 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200605121608.14595.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 12 May 2006 03:07 pm, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I need some help from those who are a lot better than I in hardware > design... > > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. > > By my rough calculations and allowing for wiggle room, I'd need a 20-watt > power resistor of 1.5 ohms to keep the critter happy. "Bare minimum" is > 15W, and I could squeak by with that if I wire the fan to the 5V line > instead of the 12V... but even when I'm expected to perform a "miracle" I > like to have a little wiggle-room. ;-) > > Problems I have are: 1) I need this by Monday, and 2) I don't keep 20-watt > power resistors in my back pocket. Had I a week, I'd just order the right > tool for the job - I don't have that luxury. ;-) I remember reading somewhere that taking one or several 12V light bulbs of the automotive persuation and running them off the +5 supply would often work in this situation. Got a junkyard nearby? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From kth at srv.net Fri May 12 15:29:03 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:29:03 -0600 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4464F00F.80807@srv.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > I need some help from those who are a lot better than I in hardware > design... > > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. > > By my rough calculations and allowing for wiggle room, I'd need a > 20-watt power resistor of 1.5 ohms to keep the critter happy. "Bare > minimum" is 15W, and I could squeak by with that if I wire the fan to > the 5V line instead of the 12V... but even when I'm expected to > perform a "miracle" I like to have a little wiggle-room. ;-) > > Problems I have are: 1) I need this by Monday, and 2) I don't keep > 20-watt power resistors in my back pocket. Had I a week, I'd just > order the right tool for the job - I don't have that luxury. ;-) > > I was thinking I *might* be able to cobble up enough lower-end power > resistors & figure out how to stuff 'em together to draw 15w+ of > power, but then I thought: > > What if I took an older 5V CPU (say... an 80486) and wired 'er up to > just Vcc & Ground - how much power would that use? [[ I've started > some google searches & I will continue, but I was hoping others here > would have better ideas than my lame-azz neurons & google so far ]] > Do you have a AT motherboard to go with the power supply? If so, you can just plug it in as the load, as long as it leaves you enough of the 12 Volt current available. If you don't have one, check out the local thrift stores. (Unless you really are stuck to using that particular PS). You may end up with a 386, 486, etc., but it should still have a 12V line. Why dink around with making a smoke generator out of a PS when you can bypass the problem for $5.00 or so? Don't limit yourself to PC cases, these places often have external disk/CD drives also. These should also have 12V line, iirc. Also look in their boxes of wall warts. Sometimes you will find something with the exact voltage/current requirements. > I could also wire-wrap all the address/data lines to Vcc if that would > add a enough extra current draw to make 'er worth my while... Probably just generate a lot of smoke. Unless you have the clock running, I don't think it will use very much power at all. Most of the power in a CPU is used because of the clock transitions. > For those who are in lust with the "older, but still plentiful" CPUs > like that, then turn away now, you didn't see this, I was never here." > ;-) > > Any ideas will be most appreciated! From blkline at attglobal.net Fri May 12 15:17:49 2006 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:17:49 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512155341.03c84e98@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512155341.03c84e98@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4464ED6D.6080608@attglobal.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Brian L. Stuart may have mentioned these words: > I may hit an auto-parts store tomorrow anyway and see what I can scare > up; but having ready access to several CPUs (2 each 80486SX's & a P75 > Overdrive on a quick search) I figured that a 5V CPU would be a good way > to dissipate power from a 5V source, and the 486 would prolly have the > highest current draw of any easily available 5V processor. > I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that a CPU connected to a power supply would not draw all that much power if there wasn't a clock signal to really cause it to heat up. I'm just talking off-the-cuff here, but I believe you'd have essentially a resistor attached to your power supply. I'm not eletrical engineer, so take that with a grain of salt but I'm using the emperical view of heat generation vs clock speed. Barry From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 12 15:20:26 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 22:20:26 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <1473614481.20060512190716@g-lenerz.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <1473614481.20060512190716@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <20060512222026.1e1fb710@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Fri, 12 May 2006 19:07:16 +0200 Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > > As we are talking of Indys: What is the max. SIMM size for the Indy? > 32MB Shitt. Now I have no suitable RAM for the Indy. (I gave the the old 8 x 32 MB from the Indy to a friend together with a Indigo2 R10k...) Hmmm. Maybe when I rearrange the RAM in the Alphas... I have to see. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri May 12 15:26:36 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:26:36 +0100 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000801c67602$5e066f50$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > What if I took an older 5V CPU (say... an 80486) and wired 'er up to just > Vcc & Ground - how much power would that use? [[ I've started some google > searches & I will continue, but I was hoping others here would > have better > ideas than my lame-azz neurons & google so far ]] > 1st, I assume that you won't leave any input pins "floating" - if you do the results are somewhat unpredictable (from no effect to more than "somewhat glowing"!*) * I had one dx4 overdrive chip self-destruct with one tiny (about 0.1" square) part of it glowing white hot ... never did find out why :-( 2nd, If unclocked the results are also difficult to predict - but the probability is that the consumption will be very low indeed (just as overclocking increases power usage). Andy From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 12 15:28:05 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 22:28:05 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Fri, 12 May 2006 16:05:52 -0400 "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > if the board is expecting EDO and you put SDRAM in there We are talking about PS/2 SIMMs. There are no SDRAM PS/2 SIMMs, only FPM and EDO. As the SIMMs work in a Indogo2 R10k I asume they are FPM and that is what the Indy should accept. But it seems thay are just to big. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri May 12 15:39:56 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:39:56 -0400 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <200605121639.56810.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 12 May 2006 04:28 pm, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 12 May 2006 16:05:52 -0400 > > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > if the board is expecting EDO and you put SDRAM in there > > We are talking about PS/2 SIMMs. Oh. I guess I must have missed that part... I do remember running across some a while back that were marked "IBM" and had a pinout that was different enough from the usual kind that they would not work in most equipment that they were tried in. Is that what those were? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 12 16:04:44 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20060512140136.A74690@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 12 May 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I need some help from those who are a lot better than I in hardware design... certainly not me > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. > By my rough calculations and allowing for wiggle room, I'd need a 20-watt > power resistor of 1.5 ohms to keep the critter happy. "Bare minimum" is > 15W, and I could squeak by with that if I wire the fan to the 5V line > instead of the 12V... but even when I'm expected to perform a "miracle" I > like to have a little wiggle-room. ;-) > Problems I have are: 1) I need this by Monday, and 2) I don't keep 20-watt > power resistors in my back pocket. Had I a week, I'd just order the right > tool for the job - I don't have that luxury. ;-) For temporary loads to check power supplies, I use automobile headlights. For a 5V load, I use a 6v headlight (usedta be common) They provide enough load, and even light up the workspace. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 12 16:12:31 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <20060512140136.A74690@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> <20060512140136.A74690@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060512140943.R74690@shell.lmi.net> Most people throw out a dual filament (high and low beam) headlight when either filament burns out. Save one for load testing. Or go to auto repair shops and ask them to save you a bulb that still has one working filament. If a used discarded headlight is too expensive, and you need something even cheaper, . . . How much power does a ST4096 draw? From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri May 12 16:21:10 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 23:21:10 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> Friday, May 12, 2006, 10:28:05 PM, you wrote: >> if the board is expecting EDO and you put SDRAM in there > We are talking about PS/2 SIMMs. There are no SDRAM PS/2 SIMMs, only FPM > and EDO. As the SIMMs work in a Indogo2 R10k I asume they are FPM and > that is what the Indy should accept. But it seems thay are just to big. Yup... that's the problem. It's FPM to go with all the ARCS SGIs that have 72pin "PS/2-memory" slots. No need for ECC RAM, no support for EDO at all. My understanding so far is that Indy and true R4K Indigo 2 share quite a lot of concepts on the hardware level. R5K Indy is basically the same machine, but with a different PROM and CPU. All these old machines apparently can't go beyond 32MB per SIMM resulting in a max of 256 MB for any Indy and 384 MB for R4K Indigo / Indigo 2. Right from the start only the 64bit machines like R8000 or R10000 Indigo 2 support larger modules, leading to the GigaRAM Indigo 2 at least. Aside from the apparent great feeling of running a Crimson my favourite for months is the R10000/195 High Impact Indigo 2 I have. Runs not too hot, not too loud for my taste... and delivers decent performance even under IRIX 6.5.$somewhat. As for 24/7 business a R5000 Indy is my choice. Silent and with low power profile, yet more than fast enough for what I do on my server on a daily basis. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de From pcw at mesanet.com Fri May 12 16:24:33 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512155341.03c84e98@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512155341.03c84e98@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Brian L. Stuart may have mentioned these words: >> > From: Roger Merchberger >> > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own >> > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to >> > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. >> >> How about a light bulb? > > I was thinking of that (and was also suggested by a cow-orker) but I was > unsure about how to handle the function of variable resistance WRT heat > dissipation; and also, if a bulb fails, it fails open-circuit which means > there's no more voltage regulation. I suppose with enough bulbs, one could > build enough redundancy into the system... > > I may hit an auto-parts store tomorrow anyway and see what I can scare up; > but having ready access to several CPUs (2 each 80486SX's & a P75 Overdrive > on a quick search) I figured that a 5V CPU would be a good way to dissipate > power from a 5V source, and the 486 would prolly have the highest current > draw of any easily available 5V processor. > > But again, I could very well be wrong... > > No, I'm *not* using any of my 6809s!!! ;-) > > Thanks! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." > sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson > zmerch at 30below.com | > A bare 486 will probably not draw enough power, especially if it not on a working motherboard (its 1u CMOS so mainly draws dynamic power - no clock - no power) Peter Wallace From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri May 12 16:29:12 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 23:29:12 +0200 Subject: Using modern PSUs to run old hardware In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <882311923.20060512232912@g-lenerz.de> Friday, May 12, 2006, 9:07:55 PM, you wrote: > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. That reminds me of some troubles I've had (or still have) replacing a dead PSU in a vintage 4D/20 or 4D/25 ("SGI Personal Iris"). I've cut out the old exsiting PSU and rewired an old switching PC supply in an appropriate manner. Without drives the frankenIRIS works as expected, but as soon as there is a drive attached to the internal power circuit I end up getting a more or less purple display and a machine hanging during POST. Well, time to get a 300-400W PSU I guess, as there is probably a line running with less than enough power supplied to it by the cheap PC PSU. It's old 5.25" SCSI drives, so probably 12V is the source of the trouble... right? -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri May 12 16:52:11 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:52:11 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512155341.03c84e98@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060512155341.03c84e98@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512173013.04d6e9c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Peter C. Wallace may have mentioned these words: >A bare 486 will probably not draw enough power, especially if it not on a >working motherboard (its 1u CMOS so mainly draws dynamic power - no clock >- no power) OK, believe it or not, RatShack may have had what I need in enough quantity (Gasp) so I think I'm covered there. They had 1 Ohm 10W power resisters, 2/pack for $1.79. 5 packs, that should get me going. (I may have to set up 2 PS's). As an offtopic question: how much heat will the sand/cement-type wirewound resistors emit? Can I heat-shrink 2 of them together and be OK, or will it get too hot & melt/crack the tubing? I'm thinking "small modules" of 2 each of these... fewer connections floating around is good. ;-) The PS wanted 3A at 5V, and the hard drives (working or otherwise) I had kicking around only ate .7A to .8A each, so I'd have needed 4+ of them - assuming they'd draw that much current w/no 12V going to it. WRT the CPU needing a clock - I could grab a 5V can oscillator from a dead mobo & feed it a clock... Maybe I'll diddle with that *anyway* just because I'm durned curious now... ;-) Just think: A variable dummy load; set it to how much power you want it to eat just by changing the oscillator... ;-) I was not told what kind of enclosure this was going in, so I didn't know if there'd be room for the whole mobo; or used headlamps, or... which is why I was thinking CPU. Ah well... thanks for all the advice, guys! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 12 18:02:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:02:58 -0700 Subject: Looking for MSJ article Message-ID: <200605121602580191.152E398F@10.0.0.252> Does anyone have a copy of the September 1984 Microsystems handy? I'm interested in the article about replacing the 8085 on a Compupro dual-CPU board with an NSC800. I'm doing a similar project, but am having some real problems. I can read and execute instructions from EPROM just fine; reads and writes to I/O devices are just ducky, but DRAM access is unpredictable at best. Logic analyzer waveforms look textbook, so I'm wondering what I'm missing. The board does use the Intel 8202 DRAM controller and I know it's a twitchy part, so I'm wondering if there might be a marginal timing issue. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 12 18:18:23 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:18:23 -0500 Subject: ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> Message-ID: <446517BF.209@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > If anybody else is into vintage analog video capture let me know, I mostly > deal with PC and 68K Macs (10 years old or older to be ontopic). I've got several boards, from an Intel card circa 1995 to a parallel-port MPEG-1 capture device to an Iomega Buz (Zoran chipset, built-in SCSI -- very odd but useful device). I used to have a Media Vision Pro Video Spectrum, notable for capturing directly to the MSV1 codec in 1993, but I gave that away. Not sure if any of these are things you're looking for, but I'm open for trading :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 12 18:21:42 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:21:42 -0500 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ Message-ID: <799b2a1220cd491c86f3dfc8b0e1e14e@valleyimplants.com> Jochen wrote: > As we are talking of Indys: What is the max. SIMM size for the Indy? >I had 8 x 32 MB in mine. I got some 64 MB SIMMs so I threw them into the >Indy to get even more RAM. But the Indy saw only 4 x 16 MB instead of 4 >x 64 MB. The SIMMs worked well in a Indigo2 R10k but showed the same >problem in a Indigo2 R4k. The IP24 (Indy) uses the IP22 (R4K Indigo2) logic set, and carries with it the memory limitations. On an Indigo2, this is 384 MB, but Indy is one bank short. Max is 256. IP28 uses different logic in the memory. It'll take 1GB From devonstopps at gmail.com Fri May 12 18:22:49 2006 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:22:49 -0400 Subject: IBM Token Ring Gear Available in Ontario Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20060512192247.02606a50@pop.gmail.com> I've got the following token ring gear available, removed from a working environment a couple of years ago. All is 16/4, and also have some cabling and adapter dongles. Located between Toronto and Kingston, Ontario, Canada. 7x IBM 8228 MAU's # FRU Desc. 1x 92F6959 MCA Token ring adapter 1x 74F9415 MCA Token ring adapter 5x 92F4555 8bit ISA Token ring adapter 1x HV ? ARCNET ver2.0 1989 From pechter at gmail.com Fri May 12 18:34:06 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:34:06 -0400 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: <20060430045205.GA63436@silme.pair.com> References: <20060430045205.GA63436@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: On 4/30/06, Adam Goldman wrote: > > A somewhat belated reply to this thread, as I read the list irregularly... > > DECserver series: Some models are LAT only (such as 100, 200, 90), some > also talk TCP/IP. Note there is also a TCP capable version of the 90 > called the 90TL. I believe there's an open source LAT daemon now. The > 90 is a compact 8 port module that plugs into the DEChub-90 or DEChub-1. > Some of these will need a MOP server to boot. Any of these should be OK > to attach terminals to. IIRC, I wasn't able to associate DECserver-100 > ports with services for attaching it to a console port ("reverse LAT"), > only some models support that. DS550 is a big box with a PDP inside, > 90 and 900 are little, 100/200/300 are in between. > > Lantronix: ETS series terminal servers are compact boxes with varying > numbers of ports, with a DECserver-like interface. They can be used as > terminal servers as well as console servers. EPS series devices are > intended as print servers -- IIRC you can use as console servers, but > not as terminal servers, because the commands for outgoing connections > are gone. There's also the LRS series, which were intended as small RAS > boxes, but will also be OK as console or terminal servers -- but the > LRS2 hardware seems to have problems. The LRS1 is OK. They also have a > few other product lines such as MPS. Many of their products talk both > TCP and LAT, some of them are TCP-only unless you purchase a LAT license. > Some of them can be used as TCP/LAT gateways. > > Shiva LanRover: Intended as a RAS, can also be used as a console server. > 1U rackmount box with up to 8 ports. Probably not useful as a terminal > server, unless you have a machine that can talk the Shiva Hose protocol > and take over the ports. (It's been a while but I don't believe it wanted > to give a login prompt to an attached device that doesn't act like a > modem.) They also made an OEM version for IBM. TCP. > > Xylogics Annex: A few different products, usable as console or terminal > servers. Annex 3 squeezes dozens of ports onto one box, with Centronics > connectors. > > Livingston Portmaster: This series was popular with ISPs as a RAS, can > also be used as a terminal or console server IIRC. TCP. > > Bridge Communications CS/100, 3Com CS/2100: Not sure what exactly these > will do, but without the boot floppy or TFTP image, they won't do much > useful! The software was available in several versions including one > that only talked OSI. A dozen or so ports. > > Xyplex, Emulex, others: Various DECserver workalikes. > > LAN Access LANAserver: Dunno much about this except it was available > with 4 and maybe 8 ports, it's 1U and it has an LCD on the front. Company > was sold to Digi in '95, they sold the product to NNTI, NNTI went out of > business. I think Digi might have also had their own product. > > Cyclades: They make some sort of nifty little box with L*n*x inside, I > think it's intended as a console server. A great box... up to 48 ports, full flow or none or xon/xoff. SSH support. I use 'em at work for all the consoles on the Sun or Linux stuff. I liked the Xylogics Annex -- I used 'em at Pyramid when I wired up the NJ training center. We used to build the actuall support software (it used an rn/trn configure script -- the old Larry Wall one). They ran like hell. I'd love to have one here at home for all my serial port connectivity. Cisco: They made a box with a bunch of serial ports, I think it was > intended as a RAS but could be used as a console server and maybe a > terminal server. They have something in the 25xx line (the box could be used as a Router or Terminal Server depending on the software and interface cards IIRC. Hmm, I know I'm forgetting something here... > > -- Adam > My memory's not even correctable with ECC anymore. -- Bill From pechter at gmail.com Fri May 12 18:34:06 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:34:06 -0400 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: <20060430045205.GA63436@silme.pair.com> References: <20060430045205.GA63436@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: On 4/30/06, Adam Goldman wrote: > > A somewhat belated reply to this thread, as I read the list irregularly... > > DECserver series: Some models are LAT only (such as 100, 200, 90), some > also talk TCP/IP. Note there is also a TCP capable version of the 90 > called the 90TL. I believe there's an open source LAT daemon now. The > 90 is a compact 8 port module that plugs into the DEChub-90 or DEChub-1. > Some of these will need a MOP server to boot. Any of these should be OK > to attach terminals to. IIRC, I wasn't able to associate DECserver-100 > ports with services for attaching it to a console port ("reverse LAT"), > only some models support that. DS550 is a big box with a PDP inside, > 90 and 900 are little, 100/200/300 are in between. > > Lantronix: ETS series terminal servers are compact boxes with varying > numbers of ports, with a DECserver-like interface. They can be used as > terminal servers as well as console servers. EPS series devices are > intended as print servers -- IIRC you can use as console servers, but > not as terminal servers, because the commands for outgoing connections > are gone. There's also the LRS series, which were intended as small RAS > boxes, but will also be OK as console or terminal servers -- but the > LRS2 hardware seems to have problems. The LRS1 is OK. They also have a > few other product lines such as MPS. Many of their products talk both > TCP and LAT, some of them are TCP-only unless you purchase a LAT license. > Some of them can be used as TCP/LAT gateways. > > Shiva LanRover: Intended as a RAS, can also be used as a console server. > 1U rackmount box with up to 8 ports. Probably not useful as a terminal > server, unless you have a machine that can talk the Shiva Hose protocol > and take over the ports. (It's been a while but I don't believe it wanted > to give a login prompt to an attached device that doesn't act like a > modem.) They also made an OEM version for IBM. TCP. > > Xylogics Annex: A few different products, usable as console or terminal > servers. Annex 3 squeezes dozens of ports onto one box, with Centronics > connectors. > > Livingston Portmaster: This series was popular with ISPs as a RAS, can > also be used as a terminal or console server IIRC. TCP. > > Bridge Communications CS/100, 3Com CS/2100: Not sure what exactly these > will do, but without the boot floppy or TFTP image, they won't do much > useful! The software was available in several versions including one > that only talked OSI. A dozen or so ports. > > Xyplex, Emulex, others: Various DECserver workalikes. > > LAN Access LANAserver: Dunno much about this except it was available > with 4 and maybe 8 ports, it's 1U and it has an LCD on the front. Company > was sold to Digi in '95, they sold the product to NNTI, NNTI went out of > business. I think Digi might have also had their own product. > > Cyclades: They make some sort of nifty little box with L*n*x inside, I > think it's intended as a console server. A great box... up to 48 ports, full flow or none or xon/xoff. SSH support. I use 'em at work for all the consoles on the Sun or Linux stuff. I liked the Xylogics Annex -- I used 'em at Pyramid when I wired up the NJ training center. We used to build the actuall support software (it used an rn/trn configure script -- the old Larry Wall one). They ran like hell. I'd love to have one here at home for all my serial port connectivity. Cisco: They made a box with a bunch of serial ports, I think it was > intended as a RAS but could be used as a console server and maybe a > terminal server. They have something in the 25xx line (the box could be used as a Router or Terminal Server depending on the software and interface cards IIRC. Hmm, I know I'm forgetting something here... > > -- Adam > My memory's not even correctable with ECC anymore. -- Bill From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri May 12 19:10:12 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:10:12 -0500 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <000801c67602$5e066f50$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512190834.0bd95c38@localhost> At 09:26 PM 5/12/2006 +0100, you wrote: > > What if I took an older 5V CPU (say... an 80486) and wired 'er up to just > > Vcc & Ground - how much power would that use? [[ I've started some google > > searches & I will continue, but I was hoping others here would > > have better > > ideas than my lame-azz neurons & google so far ]] > > >1st, I assume that you won't leave any input pins "floating" - if you do the >results are somewhat unpredictable (from no effect to more than "somewhat >glowing"!*) > >* I had one dx4 overdrive chip self-destruct with one tiny (about 0.1" >square) part of >it glowing white hot ... never did find out why :-( > >2nd, If unclocked the results are also difficult to predict - but the >probability is >that the consumption will be very low indeed (just as overclocking increases >power >usage). > >Andy I think he should just use some LERs*. Or perhaps a SED* or two. LER: Light-emitting resistor- ohm's law has been BROKEN. SED: Smoke-emitting diode. See LER. [Philosophy] What garlic is to food, insanity is to art. --anon. fortune (revealed to me on 7.3.95) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri May 12 19:07:57 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:07:57 -0500 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512190154.0c616bc0@localhost> At 03:07 PM 5/12/2006 -0400, you wrote: >I need some help from those who are a lot better than I in hardware design... > >The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own >power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to >needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. > >By my rough calculations and allowing for wiggle room, I'd need a 20-watt >power resistor of 1.5 ohms to keep the critter happy. "Bare minimum" is >15W, and I could squeak by with that if I wire the fan to the 5V line >instead of the 12V... but even when I'm expected to perform a "miracle" I >like to have a little wiggle-room. ;-) > >Problems I have are: 1) I need this by Monday, and 2) I don't keep 20-watt >power resistors in my back pocket. Had I a week, I'd just order the right >tool for the job - I don't have that luxury. ;-) > >I was thinking I *might* be able to cobble up enough lower-end power >resistors & figure out how to stuff 'em together to draw 15w+ of power, >but then I thought: > >What if I took an older 5V CPU (say... an 80486) and wired 'er up to just >Vcc & Ground - how much power would that use? [[ I've started some google >searches & I will continue, but I was hoping others here would have better >ideas than my lame-azz neurons & google so far ]] > >I could also wire-wrap all the address/data lines to Vcc if that would add >a enough extra current draw to make 'er worth my while... > >For those who are in lust with the "older, but still plentiful" CPUs like >that, then turn away now, you didn't see this, I was never here." >;-) 1. A CPU with nothing else connected will have the address and data lines (and clock) inputs floating all over the place, and will probably lock up immediately, then melt. You, I'm sure, know that, but a few others have suggested it and this is for their benefit. 2. Three AMPS? Yikes. I've been able to use classic AT style power supplies with an old hard drive plugged in. The +12 isn't quite as stiff as if the +5 is loaded down more significantly, but yowzers, 3 amps? That's quite a bit. This was all covered in an issue of QST magazine sometime last year. The web site doesn't keep issues so the article itself isn't directly available on line, but a search of arrl.org might turn up something. The upshot of the article was that PC power supplies aren't the best for running radios, due to the huge over-rating that's common (specsmanship, i.e. untruth in advertising) and other factors. 73 es HTH, Tom, N9QQB [Government]We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. --Winston Churchill --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 19:05:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 01:05:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at May 12, 6 03:07:55 pm Message-ID: > > I need some help from those who are a lot better than I in hardware design... > > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's own > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have access to > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. > > By my rough calculations and allowing for wiggle room, I'd need a 20-watt > power resistor of 1.5 ohms to keep the critter happy. "Bare minimum" is > 15W, and I could squeak by with that if I wire the fan to the 5V line > instead of the 12V... but even when I'm expected to perform a "miracle" I > like to have a little wiggle-room. ;-) > > Problems I have are: 1) I need this by Monday, and 2) I don't keep 20-watt > power resistors in my back pocket. Had I a week, I'd just order the right > tool for the job - I don't have that luxury. ;-) First thought : A car bulb. OK, they're designed for 12V, so will draw less than the rated current at 5V (but maybe not that much less, bulbs do approximate to constant current devices! [1]). You might get away, with say a 21W car indicator bulb, or the 2 filaments of a 5W/21W tail and brake light bulb in parallel. [1] Am I the only person to remember what a Barretter is (even if I can't remember the spelleing) ? > > I was thinking I *might* be able to cobble up enough lower-end power > resistors & figure out how to stuff 'em together to draw 15w+ of power, but > then I thought: > > What if I took an older 5V CPU (say... an 80486) and wired 'er up to just > Vcc & Ground - how much power would that use? [[ I've started some google Less than you might think. Most of the power consumed by this sort of chip goes into charging/discharging stray capacitance when signals switch states. That's why the chips get hotter as the clock frequency rises. WIth no clock, it'll not comsume that much power. > I could also wire-wrap all the address/data lines to Vcc if that would add > a enough extra current draw to make 'er worth my while... That's likely to burn the chip out if you're not careful! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 18:53:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 00:53:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at May 11, 6 07:12:49 pm Message-ID: > > You're right. Somehow when I reassembled the power supply when I wasn't > testing it (just put it back together to move it out of the way)I put the > H745 in the WRONG SIDE. Therefore, I have it now hooked up to the battery > backup plug. I am not sure how this has any effect on the voltages you measure on the transformer secondaries. Can we go back a bit, please. 1) What is the problem with this machine -- it appears you think there's a PSU problem. Which output(s) are defective? 2) What do you measure at the (transformer) inputs to the regulator bricks. Rememebr a (working) voltmeter has two leads, so you are always mesuring a voltage between 2 points. What are those points? When checking the transformer output, you connect one voltmeter probe to each of the transformer wires at the regulator brick -- not between either wire and ground. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 18:56:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 00:56:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at May 11, 6 08:44:24 pm Message-ID: > I forgot that the diagram says the H754/784 AC input connectors are white :p I am now trying to work out how the colour of the connector can have any bearing on the voltage you measure! [YEs, OK, I did once see measurements that showed that black plastic boxes were more electrically leaky than the equivalent white ones -- presumably the black colouring contained carbon or something. But that was working with voltages of 10's of kV, and currents of nanoamps. Not applicable to the PDP11 PSU] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 19:16:04 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 01:16:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512190834.0bd95c38@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at May 12, 6 07:10:12 pm Message-ID: > LER: Light-emitting resistor- ohm's law has been BROKEN. How does this differ from a light bulb, or indeed a red-hot heating element? -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 12 19:28:06 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 20:28:06 -0400 Subject: ISA Video Capture References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> <446517BF.209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 7:18 PM Subject: Re: ISA Video Capture > Teo Zenios wrote: > > If anybody else is into vintage analog video capture let me know, I mostly > > deal with PC and 68K Macs (10 years old or older to be ontopic). > > I've got several boards, from an Intel card circa 1995 to a > parallel-port MPEG-1 capture device to an Iomega Buz (Zoran chipset, > built-in SCSI -- very odd but useful device). I used to have a Media > Vision Pro Video Spectrum, notable for capturing directly to the MSV1 > codec in 1993, but I gave that away. > > Not sure if any of these are things you're looking for, but I'm open for > trading :-) > -- The Media Vision Pro Video Spectrum sounds interesting, did you use it at all before you got rid of it? Most of my gear is Mac based: Radius Videovision PCI Telecast, Media 100 (Nubus), Radius Spigot Pro AV (for the 840AV), the original Supermac Video Spigot (Nubus). I also have an older Matrox Rainbow Runner for my Matrox Mystique and a Winnov ISA capture/video conferencing card. Hopefully I can find drivers for the Optibase cards (the cards should be here Monday), they seem to be state of the art for their time period and platform. It seems very hard to find early PC capture cards of the Windows 3.1 era or before (does anything exist for OS/2?) which is probably why I took up the challenge of looking. www.archive.org has the computer chronicles video archives and I seen some interesting footage of hardware I never heard of before, finding information online is difficult at best. Sooner or later I will start looking for an old Avid Nubus setup, and try to add a Supermac Digital Film to the collection. An Amiga Toaster/Flyer setup would be nice to have, but the flyer add-on must be made of gold since the ebay prices for it are a bit excessive. My old Mac magazines have some information of what was available for that platform, but I have seen very little in my PC magazines on video capture (outside of an ad for the creative movie blaster). TZ From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri May 12 20:56:59 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 20:56:59 -0500 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512190834.0bd95c38@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512205542.0aff37e8@localhost> MTBF: an LER has a very short expected service life (since its in the process of burning up). At 01:16 AM 5/13/2006 +0100, you wrote: > > LER: Light-emitting resistor- ohm's law has been BROKEN. > >How does this differ from a light bulb, or indeed a red-hot heating element? > >-tony [Oops] "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" --Harry Warner of Warner Brothers, 1925 --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 12 21:34:59 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:34:59 -0500 Subject: ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> <446517BF.209@oldskool.org> <006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game> Message-ID: <446545D3.7070700@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > The Media Vision Pro Video Spectrum sounds interesting, did you use it at > all before you got rid of it? Extensively. It captured raw RGB @ 160x120 and 320x240 (NTSC) and also captured directly into the MSV1 (Microsoft Video 1) codec since Media Vision were the people who created it. The board was only rated at 15fps, but I found on faster machines I could push it as high as 30fps at 160x120. It was a 16-bit ISA board, and came with the original version of Video for Windows, and also a DOS program that could capture and play back video (no audio, though, you needed Windows and a sound card for that). There used to be Linux drivers for it in 1995, not sure if they're in the source tree any more. > platform. It seems very hard to find early PC capture cards of the Windows > 3.1 era or before (does anything exist for OS/2?) which is probably why I There definitely were drivers for OS/2... Otherwise how did they provide those "Ultimotion" sample videos? :-) But seriously, I do remember OS/2 drivers for at least some cards. > An Amiga Toaster/Flyer setup > would be nice to have, but the flyer add-on must be made of gold since the > ebay prices for it are a bit excessive. That is usually the result of people who made some projects in the early 1990s and, 15 years later, are older and richer and want to reproduce their projects so they can render them out to something digital like DVD. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 12 23:02:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:02:13 -0700 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512205542.0aff37e8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512190834.0bd95c38@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20060512205542.0aff37e8@localhost> Message-ID: <200605122102130335.1640300A@10.0.0.252> On 5/12/2006 at 8:56 PM Tom Peters wrote: >MTBF: an LER has a very short expected service life (since its in the >process of burning up). I like SDC*s myself. More spectacular. --Chuck *SDC=self-destroying capacitor. Those old steel-jacket mil-spec units sealed with epoxy could be classified as weaponry. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat May 13 00:14:05 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 00:14:05 -0500 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ Message-ID: > I do remember running across some a while back that were marked "IBM" and had >a pinout that was different enough from the usual kind that they would not >work in most equipment that they were tried in. Is that what those were? Possiby RS/6000 SIMMS? these are 72-pin (x40? bit) SIMMS with a not-quite-so-deep cut on the one side. I found one non-IBM that would tolerate them (had 1/2 of a bank of 16MB ones, a bank on a RS/6k POWER2 being 16 SIMMS) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat May 13 02:05:54 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 08:05:54 +0100 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <4464EB59.1090008@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <200605121951.k4CJpiPl012787@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4464EB59.1090008@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44658552.9020800@gjcp.net> jim stephens wrote: > Dennis Boone wrote: > >> > > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's >> own > > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have >> access to > > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. >> > >> > > what happens when you hook up some extra IDE drives? I have never had > them fail to come > up with a couple of extra IDE drives hooked up. I don't recall what the > Dale resitors were in the I've never seen a power supply that wouldn't start with an IDE drive attached. Come to that, I haven't seen one that wouldn't start with just the 12v line loaded, but I can believe it happens. I can't see where you'd need to sink 15w to get it running - is the 3A minimum from the spec sheet? Have you tried it with less? Gordon. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 13 02:32:11 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:32:11 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Fri, 12 May 2006 23:21:10 +0200 Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > No need for ECC RAM ECC == parity? I always thought the SGI machines need ECC / parity RAM. (I.e. SIMMS with 36 data bits.) > my favourite for months is the R10000/195 High Impact Indigo 2 I have. I have one too (Solid IMPACT "only") and still use it on a regular bais. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 13 02:45:43 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:45:43 +0200 Subject: Using modern PSUs to run old hardware In-Reply-To: <882311923.20060512232912@g-lenerz.de> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512144947.01bfecd0@mail.30below.com> <882311923.20060512232912@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <20060513094543.487b5828@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Fri, 12 May 2006 23:29:12 +0200 Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > but as soon as there is a drive attached to the internal power circuit > I end up getting a more or less purple display and a machine hanging > during POST. Maybe a problem with GND. You can get GND from the power connector, from the SCSI bus and from the enclosure. (The later is usually tied to GND of the PSU.) Maybe you have a loop in there. > It's old 5.25" SCSI drives, so probably 12V is the source of the > trouble... right? Watch the voltages with a meter. If you own one, use an oscilloscope to look for ripple on the voltages. I am interrested in your mod. I have a PI (4D30 IIRC) with dead PSU slowly rotting in the basement... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 13 04:58:51 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:58:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: Gerhard Lenerz "Re: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/" (May 12, 19:07) References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <1473614481.20060512190716@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <10605131058.ZM3398@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 12 2006, 19:07, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Friday, May 12, 2006, 9:27:39 AM, you wrote: > > > I have a FDDI board in my Indy to get nice and fast 100 MBit/s > > network... > > I've got one of these in my Challenge S and two more for my Indigo 2s. > But alas, I currently don't have the appropriate cabling on the > external side complete. I've got single-attached ones in two Indys and dual-attached in my Origin2000 and also a Newbridge ATM-FDDI bridge. You can also get dual-attached interfaces for Indys but I've never seen one :-( I do have the cables, though. > > As we are talking of Indys: What is the max. SIMM size for the Indy? > > 32MB. I think there won't be a trick as there is with R10K Indivo 2s. Yes, that's right. I have 256MB total (8 x 32MB) in two of mine, and I know of someone who bought 64MB SIMMs and was told by SGI that the reason his Indy wouldn't work was that it won't recognise anything that big. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 13 05:14:59 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 11:14:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz "Re: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/" (May 13, 9:32) References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 13 2006, 9:32, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 12 May 2006 23:21:10 +0200 > Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > > > No need for ECC RAM > ECC == parity? I always thought the SGI machines need ECC / parity RAM. > (I.e. SIMMS with 36 data bits.) ECC != parity. Parity uses a single bit (in the case of 36-bit SIMMs, one bit per byte) to detect single-bit errors. It will tell you a byte is wrong, but won't tell you which bit, so it provides no correction capability. It will not detect two-bit errors. ECC stands for error correction code, and is a multi-bit arrangement capable of not only detecting errors but providing enough information to correct some of them. How much it detects and provides correction for, depends on how many bits and how they're organised. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat May 13 09:02:13 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:02:13 EDT Subject: ISA Video Capture Message-ID: <37e.29e3598.319740e5@aol.com> In a message dated 5/12/2006 12:24:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, teoz at neo.rr.com writes: Not sure if I am the only one interested in old video capture gear on the list. Anyway I won some old Optibase ISA video capture cards on ebay (MPG-4000 and PC Motion 1993 vintage I believe) and was wondering if anybody has any information on them and maybe drivers. I emailed the company a few days ago and no word yet (doesn't look like they support anything that old anymore). They seem to be MPEG1 boards and one card has dual DSP's with heatsinks and fans (have not received them yet). If anybody else is into vintage analog video capture let me know, I mostly deal with PC and 68K Macs (10 years old or older to be ontopic). -- I've got a PS/2 Ultimedia 77 with an Actionmedia video capture card hooked up to a gooseneck composite colour camera all running under OS/2. The primary limitation is available video resolutions and the funky format of the saved video files but it's pretty cool to capture live video on a 66mhz 486 with 32meg of memory. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sat May 13 09:07:24 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:07:24 -0500 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What the problem with the machine, at least I believe, is, is that the memory is not getting any power. The light on the H745 is not coming on. I'm trying to figure out why. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 6:54 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: BA11-K low AC output levels > > > > > You're right. Somehow when I reassembled the power supply when I > > wasn't testing it (just put it back together to move it out of the > > way)I put the > > H745 in the WRONG SIDE. Therefore, I have it now hooked up to the > > battery backup plug. > > I am not sure how this has any effect on the voltages you > measure on the transformer secondaries. > > Can we go back a bit, please. > > 1) What is the problem with this machine -- it appears you > think there's a PSU problem. Which output(s) are defective? > > 2) What do you measure at the (transformer) inputs to the > regulator bricks. Rememebr a (working) voltmeter has two > leads, so you are always mesuring a voltage between 2 points. > What are those points? When checking the transformer output, > you connect one voltmeter probe to each of the transformer > wires at the regulator brick -- not between either wire and ground. > > -tony > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 13 09:24:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:24:14 +0100 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <44658552.9020800@gjcp.net> References: <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <200605121951.k4CJpiPl012787@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4464EB59.1090008@msm.umr.edu> <44658552.9020800@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4465EC0E.5090408@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I've never seen a power supply that wouldn't start with an IDE drive > attached. That's actually the only thing I use cruddy IDE junk for ;-) (well, OK, there's an IDE drive in this laptop - but not by choice) > Come to that, I haven't seen one that wouldn't start with > just the 12v line loaded, but I can believe it happens. Hmm, I've got one like that - it regulates the +12V at a shade over +9V unless there's a load on the +5V rail. I tend to use that supply along with a sacrificial anode arrangement for corrosion protection on old metal - it looks interesting with a big bucket, PC power supply, and an IDE disk dangling in mid air. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 13 09:32:13 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:32:13 +0100 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4465EDED.9040008@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > ECC stands for error correction code, and is a multi-bit arrangement > capable of not only detecting errors but providing enough information > to correct some of them. How much it detects and provides correction > for, depends on how many bits and how they're organised. How much "redundancy" is common? I know my NCR Tower uses 7 bits of ECC per 32 bits of data, but presumably there are all sorts of different arrangments... It used to annoy me having an extra 7MB "wasted" memory in a 32MB machine [1] [1] Machine was built circa 1988, so 32MB back then was pretty respectable I suppose (albeit on a multi-user machine) - I didn't get that much on a PC until the mid-90's. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 13 09:40:50 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:40:50 +0100 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4465EFF2.8020208@yahoo.co.uk> Scott Quinn wrote: > >> I do remember running across some a while back that were marked "IBM" and had >> a pinout that was different enough from the usual kind that they would not >> work in most equipment that they were tried in. Is that what those were? > > Possiby RS/6000 SIMMS? these are 72-pin (x40? bit) SIMMS with a > not-quite-so-deep cut on the one side. You know, I'd wondered about those too, but on an Indigo2 - we've got one in unknown state with no memory, and I was scratching around for donor SIMMS that were likely to be parity and not finding anything. The RS6000 looked promising until I found that the cuts aren't as deep - is that because they're some weird IBM-only pinout, or is it just because IBM only wanted people to buy RS6000 memory from authorised places? Everything else I could find either took non-parity SIMMS, 30-pin SIMMS, or something totally custom - which was actually a surprise, given how many high end workstations / servers that we have in the collection. cheers Jules From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 13 12:50:07 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:50:07 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4465EDED.9040008@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <4465EDED.9040008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44661C4F.10802@DakotaCom.Net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> ECC stands for error correction code, and is a multi-bit arrangement >> capable of not only detecting errors but providing enough information >> to correct some of them. How much it detects and provides correction >> for, depends on how many bits and how they're organised. > > How much "redundancy" is common? I know my NCR Tower uses 7 bits of ECC > per 32 bits of data, but presumably there are all sorts of different > arrangments... Depends on what you are protecting. You need to increase the "Hamming distance" between valid code words so that you can detect/correct the desired number of bits. E.g., simple parity detects a single error and corrects 0 errors. For a "detect 2, correct 1" code, you usually need log2(bits)+1 extra bits. (e.g., 6 bits for a 32 bit datum -- assuming you don't have to deal with protecting individual bytes, etc.) > It used to annoy me having an extra 7MB "wasted" memory in a 32MB > machine [1] > > [1] Machine was built circa 1988, so 32MB back then was pretty > respectable I suppose (albeit on a multi-user machine) - I didn't get > that much on a PC until the mid-90's. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 13 13:21:47 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 11:21:47 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <446623BB.3080302@DakotaCom.Net> Joost van de Griek wrote: > You might want to read this: > =toc&pth=/SGI_EndUser/Indy_OwnerGd&html=1&srch=indy>, or download the PDF > version. Excellent! Thanks! --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 13 13:26:29 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 11:26:29 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4463F636.3090401@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <44634824.9040100@DakotaCom.Net> <1459886823.20060511191519@g-lenerz.de> <4463825B.70007@DakotaCom.Net> <69900177.20060512011228@g-lenerz.de> <4463F636.3090401@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <446624D5.1010709@DakotaCom.Net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Gerhard Lenerz wrote: >> Thursday, May 11, 2006, 8:28:43 PM, you wrote: >> >>> A large card ("Newport Graphics"?) but appears that 4 RAMs (?) >>> were not populated at initial manufacture (which suggests it >>> is a lower-end card?) >> >> Newport is XL graphics. If there is free space where memory would fit >> then it is 8bit otherwise 24 bit. You could also try and google up the >> part number (the 030-xxxx-yyy number). > > I seem to remember that it is possible to turn an 8-bit board into a > 24-bit one if you fancy some surface-mount soldering and have a couple > of surplus 8-bit boards for the chips... I've got a Leister but I'm not anywhere near motivated enough to invest the time and effort :> I mainly want to get a feel for what IRIX is (was?) like... > (Pete Turnbull will know more; I believe he's got a board that he put > together in such a way) > >> The strange connector left of that one (just before the ISDN port) is for > > the IndyCam. > > Oh, the shells on those Indycam connectors are pretty flimsy - although > it's a D shape they *will* fit on upside down! Luckily I didn't fry > anything when I made that mistake once, but it took me a while to work > out why a known-good camera wasn't working... :-) I've seen folks manage to get the (keyed) 4-pin power connector on a disk drive in "backwards". :-( It's unfortunate that the pinout wasn't "pwr gnd pwr gnd" instead of "pwr gnd gnd pwr"... the former would typically cause a power supply to shut itself down if plugged backwards -- while the latter happily toasts the load! From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 13 13:31:17 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:31:17 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512173013.04d6e9c8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060512155341.03c84e98@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060512173013.04d6e9c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200605131431.17057.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 12 May 2006 05:52 pm, Roger Merchberger wrote: > As an offtopic question: how much heat will the sand/cement-type wirewound > resistors emit? How much power are they dissipating? > Can I heat-shrink 2 of them together and be OK, or will it get too hot & > melt/crack the tubing? I'm thinking "small modules" of 2 each > of these... fewer connections floating around is good. ;-) I would omit the heatshrink to favor air flow removing that heat. > The PS wanted 3A at 5V, and the hard drives (working or otherwise) I had > kicking around only ate .7A to .8A each, so I'd have needed 4+ of them - > assuming they'd draw that much current w/no 12V going to it. > > WRT the CPU needing a clock - I could grab a 5V can oscillator from a dead > mobo & feed it a clock... Maybe I'll diddle with that *anyway* just because > I'm durned curious now... ;-) Just think: A variable dummy load; set it to > how much power you want it to eat just by changing the oscillator... ;-) I > was not told what kind of enclosure this was going in, so I didn't know if > there'd be room for the whole mobo; or used headlamps, or... which is why I > was thinking CPU. I'd start small and add only bits at a time until you figure out what you need. You may be able to get away with less than you think might be necessary. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 13 13:46:44 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:46:44 -0400 Subject: ECC and Parity RAM was Re: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200605131446.44500.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 13 May 2006 06:14 am, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On May 13 2006, 9:32, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On Fri, 12 May 2006 23:21:10 +0200 > > > > Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > > > No need for ECC RAM > > > > ECC == parity? I always thought the SGI machines need ECC / parity > > RAM. > > > (I.e. SIMMS with 36 data bits.) > > ECC != parity. > > Parity uses a single bit (in the case of 36-bit SIMMs, one bit per > byte) to detect single-bit errors. It will tell you a byte is wrong, > but won't tell you which bit, so it provides no correction capability. > It will not detect two-bit errors. > > ECC stands for error correction code, and is a multi-bit arrangement > capable of not only detecting errors but providing enough information > to correct some of them. How much it detects and provides correction > for, depends on how many bits and how they're organised. Speaking of which, I have a couple of uses for those, one being a "Digital" (DEC?) 486 box that will apparently only see parity RAM, and which at present has a couple of 16s and a couple of 4s in there giving me 40M, and which I'd like to take up to 64M. The other is a DPT SCSI card that'll take up to 4 16s, and I have 4 in there, but it'll use parity RAM and I *think* ECC RAM also (I'd have to pull it out to check), and I'd much rather have that as cache there if possible, that being what it is. Anybody have some they might want to trade for? Feel free to contact me offlist... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat May 13 14:11:58 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:11:58 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <44658552.9020800@gjcp.net> References: <4464EB59.1090008@msm.umr.edu> <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <200605121951.k4CJpiPl012787@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4464EB59.1090008@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060513135246.04f64870@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Gordon JC Pearce may have mentioned these words: >jim stephens wrote: >>Dennis Boone wrote: >> >>> > > The problem is I need to use a PC power supply (AT-class with it's >>> own > > power switch) as a 12V power source, and the only one I have >>> access to > > needs a minimum load of 3Amp on the +5Volt line. >>> > >>what happens when you hook up some extra IDE drives? I have never had >>them fail to come >>up with a couple of extra IDE drives hooked up. I don't recall what the >>Dale resitors were in the > >I've never seen a power supply that wouldn't start with an IDE drive >attached. Come to that, I haven't seen one that wouldn't start with just >the 12v line loaded, but I can believe it happens. See Tom's previous response of MTBF. I'm not trying to *get* the PS started - I'm trying to *keep* it running for a very long time. If the minimum load on a switcher isn't provided, the regulation circuitry can start oscillating, and eventually swing wider & wider off the target voltage, with the possibility of eventually destroying the PS. Once the PS is dead, the target equipment (assuming the PS didn't take it along to the happy hunting grounds) will cease their functioning, resulting in (prolly quite a few) unhappy customers[1]. >I can't see where you'd need to sink 15w to get it running - is the 3A >minimum from the spec sheet? Yup. Found the spec sheet for exactly that PS at Jameco's website. > Have you tried it with less? Unforch, I don't have enough time for 'try' - I only have time for "do it as right as possible under the time constraints." That's why I was trying to overshoot the spec instead of 'getting away with' undershooting it. Thankfully, RatShack had power resistors (and amazingly, *enough* of them) that I can goad into working so the discussion is moot, yet still interesting. ;-) Believe you me, tho - I'll get some "good" power resistors on order from Mouser next week, just in case I'm expected to perform the miracle again... ;-) Anywho, thanks for all the insight - I've already got the first bank soldered up & have to put the PS under load to see how things go... Thanks again! Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Not to mention my (or one of my cow-orkers, who at that time would rightly be pissed at me) needing to drive nearly 100 miles to replace said PS and possibly other equipment to make the unhappy customers less unhappy... That type of 'job performance' tends not to look good on employee review day... ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 13 14:53:06 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:53:06 -0400 Subject: ISA Video Capture References: <37e.29e3598.319740e5@aol.com> Message-ID: <005101c676c6$db21b7a0$8c5c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:02 AM Subject: Re: ISA Video Capture > I've got a PS/2 Ultimedia 77 with an Actionmedia video capture card hooked up > to a gooseneck composite colour camera all running under OS/2. The primary > limitation is available video resolutions and the funky format of the saved > video files but it's pretty cool to capture live video on a 66mhz 486 with 32meg > of memory. http://www.tavi.co.uk/ps2pages/ohland/actionmedia.html Is this it? Seems that IBM PS/2 cards are well documented on the net. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat May 13 15:11:55 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 16:11:55 EDT Subject: ISA Video Capture Message-ID: <441.59126b.3197978b@aol.com> In a message dated 5/13/2006 3:57:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, teoz at neo.rr.com writes: > I've got a PS/2 Ultimedia 77 with an Actionmedia video capture card hooked up > to a gooseneck composite colour camera all running under OS/2. The primary > limitation is available video resolutions and the funky format of the saved > video files but it's pretty cool to capture live video on a 66mhz 486 with 32meg > of memory. http://www.tavi.co.uk/ps2pages/ohland/actionmedia.html Is this it? Seems that IBM PS/2 cards are well documented on the net. -- yup, that's it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 13 15:22:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 21:22:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at May 13, 6 09:07:24 am Message-ID: > > What the problem with the machine, at least I believe, is, is that the > memory is not getting any power. > > The light on the H745 is not coming on. I'm trying to figure out why. OK, let's start there. Make sure the bulb isn't blown. It happens, all too often. Then check the AC input to that brick. Connect an AC voltmeter between the 2 wires that come from the transformer (the ones labelled '20-30V AC'. What do you read there? Then connect a DC voltmeter between the 0V connection (or system ground) and each of the output terminals in turn. What voltages do you read there? -tony From cube1 at charter.net Sat May 13 15:28:57 2006 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:28:57 -0500 Subject: RK05 disk packs In-Reply-To: <445FE822.8060501@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20060513152649.03dd5838@cirithi> I have found them to be pretty hardy, stored in my basement (cool, dry, with de-humidifier) in boxes with 15 each, stacked one on top of the other. Ideally they would be stored on edge in racks, in a good zip-lock bag with a dessicant, but mine have generally been happy without that. Jay Jaeger At 08:53 PM 5/8/2006 -0400, C. H. Dickman wrote: >I have just gotten about 80 RK05 disk packs for a PDP-11. They have been >stored in an office environment, but most have not been used for at least >15 years. Some have labels indicating they were cleaned by SCOPUS in the >late '80s. > >Any recommendations on the best way to store them would be helpful. > >If anybody is interested in some of them, they can be had for the >shipping. Contact me offline if you are interested and we can talk about >the details. I am located in Ohio, USA 45865. > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1 at charter.net From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat May 13 17:15:16 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 17:15:16 -0500 Subject: ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <446545D3.7070700@oldskool.org> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> <446517BF.209@oldskool.org> <006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game> <446545D3.7070700@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <44665A74.4000501@brutman.com> Is there modern software that will play the Ultimotion format? I'd love to play the 'fish' sample video for the kids, but nothing I have except my original OS/2 install has a codec that understands Ultimotion. Mike From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat May 13 17:50:49 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 23:50:49 +0100 Subject: ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <44665A74.4000501@brutman.com> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> <446517BF.209@oldskool.org> <006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game> <446545D3.7070700@oldskool.org> <44665A74.4000501@brutman.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640605131550w7fd4eec5g5490f3b7637de323@mail.gmail.com> On 13/05/06, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Is there modern software that will play the Ultimotion format? I'd love > to play the 'fish' sample video for the kids, but nothing I have except > my original OS/2 install has a codec that understands Ultimotion. > > > Mike > > > Xanim does never tried it myself though. That will compile on just about anything. Dan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 13 22:22:10 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 23:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4465EDED.9040008@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <4465EDED.9040008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200605140330.XAA14264@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> ECC stands for error correction code, [...] > How much "redundancy" is common? I don't know enough about other platforms to comment, but on the SPARCs where I know something about parity/ECC and RAM, non-parity is 32 bits wide, parity is 33, and ECC is 36. 4 extra bits doesn't seem like enough to do even SEC to me, never mind SECDED, so I'm not sure how 36 bits can actually provide ECC, but that's what it's called. (For a 32-bit word, there must be at least 32 codewords at Hamming distance 1 that are at distance >1 from all other valid codewords, so there must be at least 32 times as many possible codewords as valid codewords - but 4 extra bits gives only 16 times as many possible codewords as valid codewords.) Maybe the memory controller actually handles it as 64-bit words with 8 bits of ECC data each or something equally odd. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From evan at snarc.net Sat May 13 23:00:53 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 00:00:53 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up Message-ID: <005001c6770a$ffd07e30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Man am I tired... but man was that fun! Got home from the VCF East 3.0 about 45 minutes ago. The one-day event was a major success for our MARCH club (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists.) We had more than 100 people attend today, with another 30-40 if you count the exhibitors, speakers, volunteers, and guests. The fun started Friday morning when I arrived at the venue at 7:30 for setting up. The first exhibitor arrived by about 8:30, followed by a delivery of tables from the local party rental shop. Other exhibitors trickled in throughout the day and there were several last-minute tasks to complete. A major task: the all-hands-on-deck unloading experience when Mike Ross arrived with four IBM big-iron computers estimated at 1,000 pounds each. Mike also brought his friend Henk all the way from Holland. Eight of us went to dinner at 8:00 at the hotel bar. A funny thing -- two or three times during dinner we had other people tentatively approach us and say, "You must be the VCF guys"... LOL, what gave it away, was it our pocket protectors? We hung in the bar until 1-ish when Sellam finally arrived from the airport after a few delays. Saturday, we again started at 7:30. The remaining exhibitors arrived -- 18 in total -- and at 9:30 we opened to the public and prayed thay anyone would actually come. They sure did! By 10:00 our venue was so full you could hardly walk through the aisles. The five guest speakers also had full rooms. The most popular speakers were Steve Lukasik who ran ARPA in the 1970s, and David Ahl who founded Creative Computing magazine and who drew a standing-room-only crowd. (We video recorded the lectures and we'll try to make them available soon.) We closed at 6:00. Usually the attendence at these shows dies at the end, but even after 5:00 and with many people in the lecture room, our exhibits area was still busy. Highlights of the judging process were Bill Degnan winning several categories and the Best-of-Show award for his display of very rare Commodore B-series computers, and Mike Loewen taking the People's Choice award for his demonstration of how to connect vintage computers to new ones. This was my fourth VCF and my favorite part isn't the computers, it's seeing old friends, meeting old virtual friends for the first time, amd making new friends completely. But what made me most proud as a first-time organizer was hearing from so many people who drove great distances just because they thought our show was cool. Everyone seemed to leave happy -- even Andy Molloy whose Apple IIe power supply burned up in the morning and whose Canon Cat wouldn't turn on in the afternoon -- and people encouraged us to reach for even higher goals next year. Many people took pictures. Please post them soon!! Thanks to everyone who attended, exhibited, and volunteered. You made our hard work extremely worthwhile. - Evan From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 14 10:50:50 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 10:50:50 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up References: <005001c6770a$ffd07e30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <003c01c6776e$2e195d80$1b406b43@66067007> Sounds like a great time was had by all, wish I could have made it.:-( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 11:00 PM Subject: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up > Man am I tired... but man was that fun! > > Got home from the VCF East 3.0 about 45 minutes ago. The one-day event > was > a major success for our MARCH club (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing > Hobbyists.) > We had more than 100 people attend today, with another 30-40 if you count > the exhibitors, speakers, volunteers, and guests. > > The fun started Friday morning when I arrived at the venue at 7:30 for > setting up. The first exhibitor arrived by about 8:30, followed by a > delivery of tables from the local party rental shop. Other exhibitors > trickled in throughout the day and there were several last-minute tasks to > complete. A major task: the all-hands-on-deck unloading experience when > Mike Ross arrived with four IBM big-iron computers estimated at 1,000 > pounds > each. Mike also brought his friend Henk all the way from Holland. Eight > of > us went to dinner at 8:00 at the hotel bar. A funny thing -- two or three > times during dinner we had other people tentatively approach us and say, > "You must be the VCF guys"... LOL, what gave it away, was it our pocket > protectors? We hung in the bar until 1-ish when Sellam finally arrived > from > the airport after a few delays. > > Saturday, we again started at 7:30. The remaining exhibitors arrived -- > 18 > in total -- and at 9:30 we opened to the public and prayed thay anyone > would > actually come. They sure did! By 10:00 our venue was so full you could > hardly walk through the aisles. The five guest speakers also had full > rooms. The most popular speakers were Steve Lukasik who ran ARPA in the > 1970s, and David Ahl who founded Creative Computing magazine and who drew > a > standing-room-only crowd. (We video recorded the lectures and we'll try > to > make them available soon.) We closed at 6:00. Usually the attendence at > these shows dies at the end, but even after 5:00 and with many people in > the > lecture room, our exhibits area was still busy. Highlights of the judging > process were Bill Degnan winning several categories and the Best-of-Show > award for his display of very rare Commodore B-series computers, and Mike > Loewen taking the People's Choice award for his demonstration of how to > connect vintage computers to new ones. > > This was my fourth VCF and my favorite part isn't the computers, it's > seeing > old friends, meeting old virtual friends for the first time, amd making > new > friends completely. But what made me most proud as a first-time organizer > was hearing from so many people who drove great distances just because > they > thought our show was cool. Everyone seemed to leave happy -- even Andy > Molloy whose Apple IIe power supply burned up in the morning and whose > Canon > Cat wouldn't turn on in the afternoon -- and people encouraged us to reach > for even higher goals next year. > > Many people took pictures. Please post them soon!! > > Thanks to everyone who attended, exhibited, and volunteered. You made our > hard work extremely worthwhile. > > - Evan > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun May 14 15:27:00 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 21:27:00 +0100 Subject: OT(ish): Using "Classic" CPU as power resistor... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060513135246.04f64870@mail.30below.com> References: <4464EB59.1090008@msm.umr.edu> <20060512193909.KISV25054.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <200605121951.k4CJpiPl012787@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4464EB59.1090008@msm.umr.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20060513135246.04f64870@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <44679294.1000804@gjcp.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > [1] Not to mention my (or one of my cow-orkers, who at that time would > rightly be pissed at me) needing to drive nearly 100 miles to replace > said PS and possibly other equipment to make the unhappy customers less > unhappy... That type of 'job performance' tends not to look good on > employee review day... ;-) Why not use a more suitable PSU then? Gordon. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 14 19:38:17 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:38:17 -0500 Subject: ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <44665A74.4000501@brutman.com> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> <446517BF.209@oldskool.org> <006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game> <446545D3.7070700@oldskool.org> <44665A74.4000501@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4467CD79.6080604@oldskool.org> Xanim and FFmpeg should play it. Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Is there modern software that will play the Ultimotion format? I'd love > to play the 'fish' sample video for the kids, but nothing I have except > my original OS/2 install has a codec that understands Ultimotion. > > > Mike > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun May 14 21:30:42 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 21:30:42 -0500 Subject: ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <26c11a640605131550w7fd4eec5g5490f3b7637de323@mail.gmail.com> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> <446517BF.209@oldskool.org> <006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game> <446545D3.7070700@oldskool.org> <44665A74.4000501@brutman.com> <26c11a640605131550w7fd4eec5g5490f3b7637de323@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4467E7D2.1050600@brutman.com> Dan Williams wrote: > Xanim does never tried it myself though. That will compile on just > about anything. > > Dan Yep, Xanim played it - good call! I don't have a soundcard installed on the system, but I don't really care - now I know what the tool I need is. Upon further investigation I found a Win32 version of the Ultimotion codec as well, so I was able to play it on the Windows 2000 machine. Back in 1994 320x240 at 15 fps with sound was pretty awesome in PC land. Looking at the same AVI now shows how much the computing universe has changed. Mike From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 15 01:16:16 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 01:16:16 -0500 Subject: ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <4467E7D2.1050600@brutman.com> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> <446517BF.209@oldskool.org> <006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game> <446545D3.7070700@oldskool.org> <44665A74.4000501@brutman.com> <26c11a640605131550w7fd4eec5g5490f3b7637de323@mail.gmail.com> <4467E7D2.1050600@brutman.com> Message-ID: <44681CB0.7020902@oldskool.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Looking at the same AVI now shows how much the computing universe has > changed. Watching Computer Chronicles shows from The Internet Archive does that too :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon May 15 03:08:59 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:08:59 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Sat, 13 May 2006 11:14:59 +0100 (BST) Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > No need for ECC RAM > > ECC == parity? I always thought the SGI machines need ECC / parity > > RAM. (I.e. SIMMS with 36 data bits.) > ECC != parity. I know. Sorry for not being clear in my previous mail. I meant: Usually the terms "parity SIMM" or "ECC SIMM" are used for SIMMs with 36 data bits. If the extra 4 bits are used for parity or ECC depends on the memory logic in the machine, not on the SIMM. There are also some machines (some sun4c and some EV5 Alphas) that need 33 bit RAM. They use one parity bit per 32 bit word. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 15 03:26:20 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:26:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz "Re: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/" (May 15, 10:08) References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <10605150926.ZM7427@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 15 2006, 10:08, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 13 May 2006 11:14:59 +0100 (BST) > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > ECC != parity. > I know. Sorry for not being clear in my previous mail. I meant: Usually > the terms "parity SIMM" or "ECC SIMM" are used for SIMMs with 36 data > bits. If the extra 4 bits are used for parity or ECC depends on the > memory logic in the machine, not on the SIMM. 4 bits in 36 isn't really enough for useful ECC. That's why on SGIs you sometimes see the error message "unrecoverable memory error" and relatively rarely see "Recoverable memory parity error corrected by CPU" :-) Most ECC memory uses more bits, and 36-bit memory is rarely described as ECC memory rather than parity memory. > There are also some machines (some sun4c and some EV5 Alphas) that need > 33 bit RAM. They use one parity bit per 32 bit word. True, though those will work with 36-bit memory as well -- they just ignore the extra bits. At least, that's true of the Suns; I've not actually tried it in Alphas but I don't see why it should ever matter. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon May 15 08:43:29 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Usually the terms "parity SIMM" or "ECC SIMM" are used for SIMMs with > 36 data bits. If the extra 4 bits are used for parity or ECC depends > on the memory logic in the machine, not on the SIMM. Except I don't think 4 extra bits are enough to do ECC on 32 data bits. There simply aren't enough possible codewords to do even SEC, much less SECDED. (SEC on 32-bit data words demands *at least* a factor of 32 extra codewords, to handle the single-bit errors (33, actually, to include the no-error case). But 4 extra bits gives only a factor of 16 extra codewords. For machines with 64-bit memory buses (machines which require 32/33/36-bit SIMMs but demands they be installed in pairs usually have 64-bit data buses), you have 64 bits of data and 8 additional bits, which ought to be enough to do useful ECC, though I haven't worked out a specific example code. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 15 09:10:53 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:10:53 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44688BED.3000202@DakotaCom.Net> der Mouse wrote: >> Usually the terms "parity SIMM" or "ECC SIMM" are used for SIMMs with >> 36 data bits. If the extra 4 bits are used for parity or ECC depends >> on the memory logic in the machine, not on the SIMM. > > Except I don't think 4 extra bits are enough to do ECC on 32 data bits. > There simply aren't enough possible codewords to do even SEC, much less > SECDED. (SEC on 32-bit data words demands *at least* a factor of 32 > extra codewords, to handle the single-bit errors (33, actually, to > include the no-error case). But 4 extra bits gives only a factor of 16 > extra codewords. > > For machines with 64-bit memory buses (machines which require > 32/33/36-bit SIMMs but demands they be installed in pairs usually have > 64-bit data buses), you have 64 bits of data and 8 additional bits, > which ought to be enough to do useful ECC, though I haven't worked out > a specific example code. For 64 bit memory (assuming you want to treat it as a 64 bit entity) you need 7 bits (minimum) to "correct a single bit error". Simple rule of thumb: the extra bits in some way need to be able to tell you WHICH of the other bits is wrong. So, you need log2(width) bits to specify one of "width" bits (e.g., 5 for 32 bits, 6 for 64 bits, 3 for 8 bits, etc.). But, you also have the "all bits are correct" case which must be conveyed. So, log2(width)+1 are required. *How* those bits are used in the code words is up to the particular code. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon May 15 09:08:43 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <44688BED.3000202@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44688BED.3000202@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605151412.KAA11195@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > So, you need log2(width) bits [...]. > But, you also have the "all bits are correct" case which must be > conveyed. So, log2(width)+1 are required. Yes, basic counting proofs make it clear that that many are necessary. It is not obvious to me that they are sufficient - but then, I've never really studied coding theory; it's quite possible there is a known way of constructing a suitable code for any word size. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 15 09:22:52 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up In-Reply-To: <005001c6770a$ffd07e30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060515142252.0E2EF583BE@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz > > Many people took pictures. Please post them soon!! > My pics are finally up: http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html I thought it was a fabulous show!! Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 15 09:48:01 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:48:01 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up In-Reply-To: <20060515142252.0E2EF583BE@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060515142252.0E2EF583BE@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <446894A1.70906@gmail.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz >> Many people took pictures. Please post them soon!! >> > > My pics are finally up: > > http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html > > I thought it was a fabulous show!! So did I! Very nice pictures, BTW. Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon May 15 10:36:08 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:36:08 +0200 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060515173608.7c0651ea@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Mon, 15 May 2006 09:43:29 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > For machines with 64-bit memory buses [...] you have 64 bits of data > and 8 additional bits, which ought to be enough to do useful ECC, SGIs want SIMMs in banks of four. Some Alphas (IIRC AS1000) need fife SIMMs per bank (one SIMM only for ECC) and some Alphas (AS600) need eight SIMMs per bank. So according to Dons explanation there should be enough redundancy to do real ECC with 36 bit SIMMs in those machines. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 15 10:41:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:41:17 +0100 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <44688BED.3000202@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44688BED.3000202@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <4468A11D.1080001@yahoo.co.uk> Don Y wrote: > For 64 bit memory (assuming you want to treat it as a 64 bit > entity) you need 7 bits (minimum) to "correct a single bit error". Doesn't that mean that there's roughly a 10% chance that a memory error is going to be in the ECC bits rather than the main operating memory - and that a problem there could result in the system correcting an imaginary fault? Do systems generally do exhaustive tests periodically on the ECC bits only in order to minimise such problems? Or is the memory for the ECC bits somehow made from more reliable (but more expensive) memory ICs? cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon May 15 10:54:46 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:54:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4468A11D.1080001@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44688BED.3000202@DakotaCom.Net> <4468A11D.1080001@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200605151559.LAA12390@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Doesn't that mean that there's roughly a 10% chance that a memory > error is going to be in the ECC bits rather than the main operating > memory - and that a problem there could result in the system > correcting an imaginary fault? Only if the ECC is incompetently done; a single-bit error, in the ECC world, can be in any of the bits. ECC is not simply adding checking bits to a normal word; if you use 71 bits of memory to store 64 bits of data ECC-protected, there normally will not be any 64 of those 71 bits where you can look to always find the upper-layer data. Instead, the coding scheme just ensures there are 2^64 distinct 71-bit words with a Hamming distance of at least 3 (for SEC) or 4 (for SECDED) between any two of them, with structure that makes it relatively easy to extract the 64 bits of data from a 71-bit codeword. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon May 15 11:20:53 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:20:53 +0100 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <200605151559.LAA12390@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000001c6783b$89db92f0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> There are several web sites that give the details on how Hamming Codes (the ECC normally used for memory) work. However, to correct some misinformation above: 7 check bits are only sufficient for 57 data bits - you need 8 for 64 (or anything up to 120). This is to detect all 1- or 2- bit errors and to correct all 1-bit errors (including those in the check bits themselves). With minor reshuffling of the codes, if necessary, it is also possible to ensure that the two commonest multi-bit failures (all 0s, all 1s) are considered to be 2-bit errors and thus no attempt to "correct" would happen. Andy From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 15 13:03:51 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:03:51 -0400 Subject: ISA Video Capture References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> <446517BF.209@oldskool.org> <006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game> <446545D3.7070700@oldskool.org> <44665A74.4000501@brutman.com> <26c11a640605131550w7fd4eec5g5490f3b7637de323@mail.gmail.com> <4467E7D2.1050600@brutman.com> <44681CB0.7020902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002401c67849$ecb6b360$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 2:16 AM Subject: Re: ISA Video Capture > Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Looking at the same AVI now shows how much the computing universe has > > changed. > > Watching Computer Chronicles shows from The Internet Archive does that > too :-) > -- The technology changed quite a bit from the 1980's to 1990's, makes collecting the stuff interesting (atleast to me anyway). I used to watch the computer chronicles when they first aired, very interesting show at the time. Back then I jumped from my trusty C64 to a 286 PC and missed all the Atari ST/Amiga gear when it was new and I never got into the Macs back then either, its cool to check out those systems today. The Mac platform is what sparked my curiosity in video capture and from there I started to look at what was on the PC in the same time frame and earlier. TZ From evan at snarc.net Mon May 15 13:11:28 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:11:28 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 -- pictures here Message-ID: <002f01c6784a$fcd0c050$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> For the people not on our local list, here are some picture anthologies: - http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html - http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/ - http://ahm.ath.cx/photos/VCFE3.0/ There will be more soon. From allain at panix.com Mon May 15 13:39:02 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:39:02 -0400 Subject: OT: sub-Jolt experiences: Coke C2 References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org><200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org><005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> <446517BF.209@oldskool.org><006201c67624$1d9397f0$8c5c1941@game><446545D3.7070700@oldskool.org> <44665A74.4000501@brutman.com><26c11a640605131550w7fd4eec5g5490f3b7637de323@mail.gmail.com><4467E7D2.1050600@brutman.com> <44681CB0.7020902@oldskool.org> <002401c67849$ecb6b360$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <018b01c6784e$fd6b7ce0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Let's see if this works... OT: It appears that Coke C2 was just discontinued. Anybody knowing where there is still some for sale (either East Coast, or as shippable) please contact me directly. Somebody else told me that 'Coke Black' IIRC was also axed. John A. time to dust off the ExpressoCharger From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 15 14:18:58 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:18:58 -0600 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <000001c6783b$89db92f0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000001c6783b$89db92f0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <4468D422.5010706@jetnet.ab.ca> Andy Holt wrote: > There are several web sites that give the details on how Hamming Codes (the > ECC normally used for memory) work. However, to correct some misinformation > above: > 7 check bits are only sufficient for 57 data bits - you need 8 for 64 (or > anything up to > 120). This is to detect all 1- or 2- bit errors and to correct all 1-bit > errors (including those in the check bits themselves). With minor > reshuffling of the codes, if necessary, it is also possible to ensure that > the two commonest multi-bit failures (all 0s, all 1s) are considered to be > 2-bit errors and thus no attempt to "correct" would happen. > > Andy Also at one time with small Dynamic memory ( how one defines small is a minor point today ) one could do error checking on refesh cycles thus keeping bit errors down to a minium. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 15 15:56:57 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:56:57 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4468A11D.1080001@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44688BED.3000202@DakotaCom.Net> <4468A11D.1080001@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4468EB19.5080009@DakotaCom.Net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> For 64 bit memory (assuming you want to treat it as a 64 bit >> entity) you need 7 bits (minimum) to "correct a single bit error". > > Doesn't that mean that there's roughly a 10% chance that a memory error > is going to be in the ECC bits rather than the main operating memory - > and that a problem there could result in the system correcting an > imaginary fault? No. The code words represent the only "legitimate" way of encoding a particular "value" (data bits plus check bits). So, an error in a check bit is likewise detected (and corrected -- assuming it is a single error). My explanation wasn't meant to be thorough. Rather, just a simple aid to figuring out how many bits you need (at a minimum) for a *single* bit correction. If you *really* want me to dig out formal definitions for all of these, I can -- but *you* can probably google an explanation just as quickly! :> > Do systems generally do exhaustive tests periodically on the ECC bits > only in order to minimise such problems? Or is the memory for the ECC > bits somehow made from more reliable (but more expensive) memory ICs? No. To paraphrase a (bad) commercial: "bits is bits". The memory controller checks each "entity" fetched from the memory array. It dynamically determines what the check bits *should* be for those data bits and compares to the check bits read. If a discrepancy exists, the controller figures out WHICH bit(s) need to be corrected and makes the adjustment before presenting the corrected *data* bits to the host/cpu. On each write operation, the check bits corresponding to the data being written are synthesized and stored in the memory array alongside the data bits. (how errors are reported/handled is immaterial to the controller) Note that ECC is not infallible. It just increases the likelihood of getting good data *if* the number of instantaneous failures never exceeds the maximum number for which the code was designed. E.g., typically, you can detect two bit errors and correct *one* (whereas simple parity detects one and corrects zero). Note that a system designed to "detect 2, correct 1" will often gladly report *3* errors as "no errors" (just like flipping *two* bits in a simple parity scheme results in NO parity error -- even if one of those bits is the parity bit) From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon May 15 16:07:15 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:07:15 -0500 Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? Message-ID: Hey, is anyone here interested in getting an ethernet DECnet network together at VCFMW? I'll be bringing my PDP11 which has DECnet/E on it :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 15 16:05:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 22:05:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4468A11D.1080001@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at May 15, 6 04:41:17 pm Message-ID: > > Don Y wrote: > > For 64 bit memory (assuming you want to treat it as a 64 bit > > entity) you need 7 bits (minimum) to "correct a single bit error". > > Doesn't that mean that there's roughly a 10% chance that a memory error is > going to be in the ECC bits rather than the main operating memory - and that a > problem there could result in the system correcting an imaginary fault? > > Do systems generally do exhaustive tests periodically on the ECC bits only in > order to minimise such problems? Or is the memory for the ECC bits somehow > made from more reliable (but more expensive) memory ICs? No. Any decent ECC system assumes the extra ECC bits could be in error too. If you have an n-bit word size, and add another m bits, you have a memory location that can store 2^(m+n) values. In fact only 2^n of those are ever written (those correspond to the 2^n different values you could store in the n-bit word without ECC). And those values are carefully chosen so that if any one of the n+m bits flips state, the ECC circuitry can still work out which of the 2^n values was origianlly written to that location. So the error can be corrected -- even if it's in one of the ECC bits. -tony From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 15 16:16:13 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:16:13 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <200605151559.LAA12390@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44688BED.3000202@DakotaCom.Net> <4468A11D.1080001@yahoo.co.uk> <200605151559.LAA12390@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4468EF9D.3040608@DakotaCom.Net> der Mouse wrote: >> Doesn't that mean that there's roughly a 10% chance that a memory >> error is going to be in the ECC bits rather than the main operating >> memory - and that a problem there could result in the system >> correcting an imaginary fault? > > Only if the ECC is incompetently done; a single-bit error, in the ECC > world, can be in any of the bits. ECC is not simply adding checking > bits to a normal word; The check bits *can* be independant of the "data bits". But, it usually requires a less efficient (in terms of number of bits required) implementation. The Hamming codes are like this -- for example, adding 4 bits to an 8 bit datum. But, there are several issues related to *choice* of code (implementation) besides "efficiency". You may also want to consider how likely (probability) the code is for correctly decoding a given word, etc. And, you have to decide what *types* of errors you are likely to encounter! E.g., the errors you are likely to encounter in a data channel (communication stream) are different than the errors you are likely to encounter in a memory array. And, even the *design* of the memory array can influence the types of errors you are likely to experience E.g., YEARS ago :> when you selected DRAM, you considered the internal topology before designing your memory test algorithms. You would deliberately look for failures that mapped onto the internal structure of the die (bad column drivers, etc.) as well as using test patterns to introduce the most "noise" into adjacent memory cells, etc. > if you use 71 bits of memory to store 64 bits of > data ECC-protected, there normally will not be any 64 of those 71 bits > where you can look to always find the upper-layer data. Instead, the > coding scheme just ensures there are 2^64 distinct 71-bit words with a > Hamming distance of at least 3 (for SEC) or 4 (for SECDED) between any > two of them, with structure that makes it relatively easy to extract > the 64 bits of data from a 71-bit codeword. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 15 18:07:55 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:07:55 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <000001c6783b$89db92f0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000001c6783b$89db92f0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <446909CB.2030502@DakotaCom.Net> Andy Holt wrote: > There are several web sites that give the details on how Hamming Codes (the Note, not all ECC's are Hamming! It's beauty is that it is simple to implement (though not as efficient as a code could theoretically be) > ECC normally used for memory) work. However, to correct some misinformation Except *disk* memory, of course... :> > above: > 7 check bits are only sufficient for 57 data bits - you need 8 for 64 (or > anything up to Sorry if my comment wasn't clear enough: For 64 bit memory (assuming you want to treat it as a 64 bit entity) you need 7 bits (minimum) to "correct a single bit error". -----------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Simple rule of thumb: the extra bits in some way need to be able to tell you WHICH of the other bits is wrong. So, you need log2(width) bits to specify one of "width" bits (e.g., 5 for 32 bits, 6 for 64 bits, 3 for 8 bits, etc.). But, you also have the "all bits are correct" case which must be conveyed. So, log2(width)+1 are required. If you want to *detect* two bit errors, then you need extra check digits. (Hamming distance is the number of bits of "difference" between VALID code words). In particular, you can DETECT no more than X errors if the Hamming distance is X+1. Note that n simple parity, all valid code words differ in at least 2 bits -- a data bit and, if a data bit is toggled (to represent a different value from some *other* data value), that means the parity bit is also toggled! So, parity can detect 2=X+1 or *1* error. You can CORRECT no more than Y errors if the Hamming distance is 2Y+1. Since the distance for simple parity (above) is 2, 2=2Y+1 or *0* bits can be corrected. So, to DETECT 2 errors, you need a Hamming distance of 3. To CORRECT 1 error you also need a Hamming distance of 3. But, there's no free lunch. You get one or the other "capability" for that distance. To do *both*, you need a Hamming distance of X+Y+1 -- or, 4, in this case. A Hamming CODE will correct a single bit error (distance = 3). A Hamming code is formed by adding C bits to the data word. It must be possible to indicate which of the resulting D+C bits is in error -- so, log2(D+C) <= C (this is roughly C=log2(D)+1). But, this just gives you a "distance 3" code. To get a distance *4* code (which allows CORRECT 1 *and* DETECT 2), you add a parity bit to the C bits (one extra bit means the distance is now 1 greater between VALID code words). When the input code word differs by more bits than can be accommodated, the code typically "corrects" to a wrong data value (or, ignores the error altogether!) -- just like simple parity... > 120). This is to detect all 1- or 2- bit errors and to correct all 1-bit > errors (including those in the check bits themselves). With minor > reshuffling of the codes, if necessary, it is also possible to ensure that > the two commonest multi-bit failures (all 0s, all 1s) are considered to be > 2-bit errors and thus no attempt to "correct" would happen. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 15 18:08:52 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:08:52 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <4468D422.5010706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000001c6783b$89db92f0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <4468D422.5010706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44690A04.8050606@DakotaCom.Net> woodelf wrote: > Andy Holt wrote: >> There are several web sites that give the details on how Hamming Codes >> (the >> ECC normally used for memory) work. However, to correct some >> misinformation >> above: >> 7 check bits are only sufficient for 57 data bits - you need 8 for 64 (or >> anything up to >> 120). This is to detect all 1- or 2- bit errors and to correct all 1-bit >> errors (including those in the check bits themselves). With minor >> reshuffling of the codes, if necessary, it is also possible to ensure >> that >> the two commonest multi-bit failures (all 0s, all 1s) are considered >> to be >> 2-bit errors and thus no attempt to "correct" would happen. >> >> Andy > > Also at one time with small Dynamic memory ( how one defines small is a > minor point today ) one could do error checking on refesh cycles thus > keeping bit errors down to a minium. I suspect that aspect was better suited to *core*! :> From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 15 18:28:04 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:28:04 -0700 Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <200605151412.KAA11195@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4462943F.30407@DakotaCom.Net> <1055337731.20060511040300@g-lenerz.de> <20060512092739.75cffb08@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605121605.52284.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060512222805.3b1dcc0e@SirToby.dinner41.de> <607384370.20060512232110@g-lenerz.de> <20060513093211.57ee9b1a@SirToby.dinner41.de> <10605131114.ZM3440@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060515100859.31a8b5de@SirToby.dinner41.de> <200605151354.JAA10916@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44688BED.3000202@DakotaCom.Net> <200605151412.KAA11195@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44690E84.8060501@DakotaCom.Net> der Mouse wrote: >> So, you need log2(width) bits [...]. > >> But, you also have the "all bits are correct" case which must be >> conveyed. So, log2(width)+1 are required. > > Yes, basic counting proofs make it clear that that many are necessary. > It is not obvious to me that they are sufficient - but then, I've never > really studied coding theory; it's quite possible there is a known way > of constructing a suitable code for any word size. The beauty of the Hamming codes was the simplicity of doing so. If you have D data bits, you take build an L-row matrix wherein each column is the L-bit representation of such that no two columns are the same -- and the "0...0" vector never appears (L is the number of bits that you are adding to the data bits -- there must be D+L columns in said matrix). So, for an 8 bit value, you would create a matrix: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 Your input code word (D+C digits... C=4 here) is then multiplied by this matrix. A result of "0..0" indicates a valid code word (no error). Any other value tells you which bit needs to be twiddled in the input code word. The "check digits" (given this form of the code) are interspersed among the data digits by noting where the column vectors in this matrix have only a single bit set in them. (E.g. the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th columns). You can obviously rearrange the columns. Or, select a different subset of those available (e.g., replace the last column with 1 1 1 1) [let me know if this isn't quite right... I'm just calling it up from memory and I haven't had to design any ECC hardware in *decades*! :-/ ] From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon May 15 18:35:38 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:35:38 -0500 Subject: Sun 3004 CPU question Message-ID: Still having problems with the Sun 3004 in my CV. A 3/110 board works fine in it, but the 3004 CPU continually cycles the 8->7->6->5->4->3->2->1 on the LEDs that Sun-3s do once on powerup. Has anyone seen this before to narrow down the possible things to look at? No, there is no output on the console (TTYA) port (checked the teminal and cabling with the /110 CPU to verify that it works) From caveguy at wowway.com Mon May 15 18:43:04 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:43:04 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <002f01c6784a$fcd0c050$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200605152343.k4FNh3k13118@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> It is with great pleasure that my family and I were able to attended VCF-East this past weekend. My mutterings on this event has been composed from the myopic viewpoint of an IBMcollector and at this point in time covers but one small aspect of the event from that viewpoint. As I understand it, Amongst he many contributions Evan was instrumental in the rescue of the IBM System /32 that was powered up for the first time, in a long time there at the show..... AtaBoy's to all involved..... During a pre-arrange session on the veranda of the old Marconi Hotel, located at Camp Evans, New Jersey, the IBM System 3 Special Interest Group was formed........ :-) Full story and pictures at: http://www.ibm-collectables.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=vcf-east There is also a link from the http://IBMcollectablee.com homepage. Thanks to all involved, it was great fun ..... More latter, time permitting :) Bob Bradlee From RLAAG at PACBELL.NET Mon May 15 19:09:19 2006 From: RLAAG at PACBELL.NET (BOB LAAG) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:09:19 -0700 Subject: looking for chip info 1968-69 vintage, 989102 and 989105 Message-ID: <4469182F.8010707@PACBELL.NET> Wondering about info on these old chips from 1968-69. The numbers are 989102 and 989105... What they are and where info may be found... From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon May 15 19:14:45 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:14:45 -0400 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer Message-ID: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> I got one for $5 at a garage sale. Everything but the hard drive (CP3044 40MB) seems to work. I cracked it open and replaced the hard drive with one of about the same vintage and still no go. Further research indicates that it only works with 3 very specific drives, although I don't know what those are other than the CP3044. The two ROM sockets are empty. I think they could contain ROMs with a floppy disk image and allow the machine to boot without a disk. Anybody know if this is right? Do you need both sockets populated for an even/odd byte thing or is it one ROM making up a disk and the two sockets making two disks? This leads to an OT MSDOS question: Can MSDOS be told about a hard disk that the BIOS does not know about? You can probably see my line of thinking. Make a floppy that boots DOS and can talk to the new HD. Burn that onto a ROM and then make the machine boot from the ROM socket. Now what I would do with this 286-10 after that is unclear. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 15 19:26:06 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:26:06 -0700 Subject: looking for chip info 1968-69 vintage, 989102 and 989105 In-Reply-To: <4469182F.8010707@PACBELL.NET> References: <4469182F.8010707@PACBELL.NET> Message-ID: <44691C1E.4010404@DakotaCom.Net> BOB LAAG wrote: > Wondering about info on these old chips from 1968-69. The numbers are > 989102 and 989105... What they are and where info may be found... Are you sure they aren't *house* numbers? Who makes them (what's the logo on them)? Are they CERDIPs, DIPs, windowed, etc.? From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 15 19:31:26 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:31:26 -0700 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <44691D5E.40604@DakotaCom.Net> C. H. Dickman wrote: > I got one for $5 at a garage sale. Everything but the hard drive (CP3044 > 40MB) seems to work. > > I cracked it open and replaced the hard drive with one of about the same > vintage and still no go. Further research indicates that it only works > with 3 very specific drives, although I don't know what those are other > than the CP3044. Chase down the interrupt table to find the Disk Parameter Table (or whatever it's called) using DEBUG. See what disk geometry the machine wants (i.e. find the entry corresponding to the disk "type" in the BIOS settings). A hack I have done in the past (other machines) for old drives with "wrong" geometries is to take some bogus "DPT" entry and modify it to match the disk that you want to install. Then, take still another bogus entry and "- modify" it -- to ensure the checksum stays unchanged. Burn new PROMs to replace the originals, etc. > The two ROM sockets are empty. I think they could contain ROMs with a > floppy disk image and allow the machine to boot without a disk. Anybody > know if this is right? Do you need both sockets populated for an > even/odd byte thing or is it one ROM making up a disk and the two > sockets making two disks? If it is a 286, chances are the two ROMs are hi/lo bytes of a 16 bit word. > This leads to an OT MSDOS question: Can MSDOS be told about a hard disk > that the BIOS does not know about? You can probably see my line of > thinking. Make a floppy that boots DOS and can talk to the new HD. Burn > that onto a ROM and then make the machine boot from the ROM socket. See above. :> > Now what I would do with this 286-10 after that is unclear. Let me know since I have a Compaq Portable III that I am equally pondering... :-/ From evan at snarc.net Mon May 15 19:32:41 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:32:41 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <200605152343.k4FNh3k13118@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Glad to hear that you had such a good time at our show! We ordered three dedicated 220V, 20A circuits -- one each for the Systems 32/34/36 -- in order to avoid a power blackout for the whole town. It took a last-minute call to our electrician Saturday morning to get them functional, since we were told to order 6-30 receptacles and the actual spec was L6-30. The "L" makes a big difference in the physical shape. :) Mike's exhibit recieved many compliments. We even removed some doors to make sure they could get into our building. Here's a challenge: who can top this exhibit next year? LOL, the catch is that we can't run any three-phase power systems because it is too darn expensive. Actually, next year we might have DOUBLE the floor space available. Are you listening, Sridhar??? _____ From: Bob [mailto:caveguy at wowway.com] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 7:43 PM To: Evan Koblentz; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint It is with great pleasure that my family and I were able to attended VCF-East this past weekend. My mutterings on this event has been composed from the myopic viewpoint of an IBMcollector and at this point in time covers but one small aspect of the event from that viewpoint. As I understand it, Amongst he many contributions Evan was instrumental in the rescue of the IBM System /32 that was powered up for the first time, in a long time there at the show..... AtaBoy's to all involved..... During a pre-arrange session on the veranda of the old Marconi Hotel, located at Camp Evans, New Jersey, the IBM System 3 Special Interest Group was formed........ :-) Full story and pictures at: http://www.ibm-collectables.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=vcf-eas t There is also a link from the http://IBMcollectablee.com homepage. Thanks to all involved, it was great fun ..... More latter, time permitting :) Bob Bradlee From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon May 15 19:50:52 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:50:52 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up References: <20060515142252.0E2EF583BE@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <003d01c67883$411f7f70$65406b43@66067007> Really great pictures. Thanks for sharing. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: Re: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up > And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz >> >> Many people took pictures. Please post them soon!! >> > > My pics are finally up: > > http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html > > I thought it was a fabulous show!! > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > From evan at snarc.net Mon May 15 20:00:58 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:00:58 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up In-Reply-To: <003d01c67883$411f7f70$65406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <001101c67884$31f71390$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> LOL ... I really think this one was unnecessary. http://home.comcast.net/~pet2001/CIMG1215.JPG -----Original Message----- From: Keys [mailto:jrkeys at concentric.net] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 8:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up Really great pictures. Thanks for sharing. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: Re: VCF East 3.0 wrap-up > And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz >> >> Many people took pictures. Please post them soon!! >> > > My pics are finally up: > > http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html > > I thought it was a fabulous show!! > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 15 20:06:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:06:32 -0700 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> On 5/15/2006 at 8:32 PM Evan Koblentz wrote: >Here's a challenge: who can top this exhibit next year? LOL, the catch is >that we can't run any three-phase power systems because it is too darn >expensive. Some folks run 3 phase machine tools from single-phase lines using a phase converter--basically a big 3 phase motor and a large capacitor. I don't know how well that would work with power supplies, but it's a thought. -Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon May 15 20:34:54 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM system 34 to be melted down in Kentucky, if you let it... Message-ID: <20060516013454.57822.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I received this email. Respond to Robin if interested. " I have two old IBM System 34 computers that I am interested in selling or recovering the gold from them. Anyone interested in purchasing please contact or if you have information on recovering the gold please contact. Thank you. Robin Archer, Louisville Kentucky Robin_archer at bellsouth.net " __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 15 20:47:17 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:47:17 EDT Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint Message-ID: <278.98724fc.319a8925@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/2006 9:09:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 5/15/2006 at 8:32 PM Evan Koblentz wrote: >Here's a challenge: who can top this exhibit next year? LOL, the catch is >that we can't run any three-phase power systems because it is too darn >expensive. Some folks run 3 phase machine tools from single-phase lines using a phase converter--basically a big 3 phase motor and a large capacitor. I don't know how well that would work with power supplies, but it's a thought. -Chuck -- My friend had to do this when he bought a 12inch shop lathe. Once he wired everything up, he wound a rope around the shaft of the conversion motor, spun it up, then hit the power, IIRC. It worked, for what it's worth. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 15 21:13:00 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 22:13:00 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4469352C.7060308@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/15/2006 at 8:32 PM Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Here's a challenge: who can top this exhibit next year? LOL, the catch is >> that we can't run any three-phase power systems because it is too darn >> expensive. > > Some folks run 3 phase machine tools from single-phase lines using a phase > converter--basically a big 3 phase motor and a large capacitor. I don't > know how well that would work with power supplies, but it's a thought. I have one. It's actually a motor-generator pair. *Extremely* inefficient, but I think I might be able to pull it off. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 15 22:15:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:15:03 -0700 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <4469352C.7060308@gmail.com> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> <4469352C.7060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605152015030061.258811D5@10.0.0.252> On 5/15/2006 at 10:13 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >I have one. It's actually a motor-generator pair. *Extremely* >inefficient, but I think I might be able to pull it off. You've got a nice one. :) Most phase converters tend to look like this: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html The interesting property of this kind is that as the load increases, the more balanced the phases become. Some old mainframes used 3-phase 400 Hz power. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 15 23:22:35 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:22:35 +1200 Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/16/06, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Hey, is anyone here interested in getting an ethernet DECnet network > together at VCFMW? Gonna miss VCFMW 2.0 (still at Pole), but if it works out, pencil me in for DECnet at VCFMW 3.0. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 16 01:43:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:43:23 -0700 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200605152343230317.2646CD59@10.0.0.252> On 5/15/2006 at 8:14 PM C. H. Dickman wrote: >I cracked it open and replaced the hard drive with one of about the same >vintage and still no go. Further research indicates that it only works >with 3 very specific drives, although I don't know what those are other >than the CP3044. My Grid 1040 shows the following 3 DPT entries: 612 cylinders, 2 heads, 17 sectors/head 612 cylinders, 4 heads, 17 sectors/head 612 cylinders, 2 heads, 34 sectors/head IOW, 20 MB, 40 MB and 40 MB. Is is possible to load a driver to access other types of disks? Maybe, but Grid hard disk controllers are in a world of their own. At least they're not at the standard port addresses. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 16 02:16:16 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 03:16:16 -0400 Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> Message-ID: <002201c678b8$9f9956e0$0b01a8c0@game> Well my ISA video capture cards arrived Monday and I noticed a part had snapped on a Tantalum? Capacitor. Anybody know what spec part this is and where to find another one (nothing to solder leads to on the part where the metal leg got ripped off, solder pads on the board are intact). Here is the picture of the part in question: http://home.neo.rr.com/unknownk/ Has a brown looking line on the one side, orange body (or dark yellow) markings are: 106, 16k, 310 from top to bottom (the small K has a bar under and over it). I hope this is a common part. Thanks TZ From lee at geekdot.com Tue May 16 07:23:46 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:23:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture Message-ID: <2152.86.138.231.62.1147782226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> 10uF 16V capacitor. Lee. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 16 11:31:41 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:31:41 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <44691D5E.40604@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060516113141.124719e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:31 PM 5/15/06 -0700, you wrote: > >Let me know since I have a Compaq Portable III that I am equally >pondering... :-/ > If your P III has the backpack option it will take regular ISA cards. The P -IIIs with the backpack make nice controllers for EPROM burners, HP-IB and HP-IL controllers and similar uses that require a slow system and an ISA slot that you plug in an interface card into. Joe From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue May 16 11:02:39 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:02:39 -0700 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060516113141.124719e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> <3.0.6.16.20060516113141.124719e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4469F79E.80102@DakotaCom.Net> Joe R. wrote: > At 05:31 PM 5/15/06 -0700, you wrote: >> Let me know since I have a Compaq Portable III that I am equally >> pondering... :-/ >> > > If your P III has the backpack option it will take regular ISA cards. > The P -IIIs with the backpack make nice controllers for EPROM burners, Yes, I currently use mine as "console" for my Unisite. I've hacked it to support a 600MB drive which gives me plenty of room for ROM images, etc. (hence my previous comments about how to support "unsupported" disk drives in older equipment) > HP-IB and HP-IL controllers and similar uses that require a slow system and > an ISA slot that you plug in an interface card into. I assume the "backpack" is the "expansion chassis"? No, I haven't (yet) acquired one. I had tentatively been planning on using it to host an OPUS PM -- since I believe the expansion chassis will handle *two* (full length?) ISA cards (the second card being a NIC for the PM). But, I am not sure if: - it supports full length cards (the PM is such a card) - power supply can support the PM - the PM's daughter card will encounter mechanical interference - NIC will fit in the case *with* the PM's daughter card Since it hasn't been a priority and it doesn't take up much *space*, I haven't pursued it... From dmabry at mich.com Tue May 16 11:18:02 2006 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:18:02 -0400 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4469FB3A.2070607@mich.com> C. H. Dickman wrote: > I got one for $5 at a garage sale. Everything but the hard drive > (CP3044 40MB) seems to work. > > I cracked it open and replaced the hard drive with one of about the > same vintage and still no go. Further research indicates that it only > works with 3 very specific drives, although I don't know what those > are other than the CP3044. > > The two ROM sockets are empty. I think they could contain ROMs with a > floppy disk image and allow the machine to boot without a disk. > Anybody know if this is right? Do you need both sockets populated for > an even/odd byte thing or is it one ROM making up a disk and the two > sockets making two disks? > > This leads to an OT MSDOS question: Can MSDOS be told about a hard > disk that the BIOS does not know about? You can probably see my line > of thinking. Make a floppy that boots DOS and can talk to the new HD. > Burn that onto a ROM and then make the machine boot from the ROM socket. > > Now what I would do with this 286-10 after that is unclear. That part number, CP3044, sounds like the same drive that Zenith used in the SupersPort series. If so, it uses a precursor to the standard IDE interface and is unique. It is not likely that hacking the drive CHS table will do anything. The ROM sockets are for a read-only extension to the floppy drive. The BIOS supports it that way. The ROMs can contain a bootable image of DOS and/or any files, including exe's, com's, bat's, etc. There is a program from GRiD called "rombuild" that would take a file or set of files and/or the boot portion of a floppy and create images for the ROM's that you would burn, plug into the 1520, and the BIOS would then boot from them or just see the files on them. There is a GRiD group on yahoo groups that has the program rombuild.exe and a short doc file on how to use it. I put it there and have used it a lot in the past. The GRiD machines were very cool for the time. Quite rugged and built to last a long time. Dave From bob at jfcl.com Tue May 16 11:39:20 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:39:20 -0700 Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c67907$49e3b6b0$0401010a@GIZMO> Maybe you can hook it up to HECnet - that'd be cool... Bob -----Original Message----- From: Julian Wolfe [mailto:fireflyst at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 2:07 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? Hey, is anyone here interested in getting an ethernet DECnet network together at VCFMW? I'll be bringing my PDP11 which has DECnet/E on it :) From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 16 12:07:53 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:07:53 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <200605152015030061.258811D5@10.0.0.252> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> <4469352C.7060308@gmail.com> <200605152015030061.258811D5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <446A06E9.5020101@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I have one. It's actually a motor-generator pair. *Extremely* >> inefficient, but I think I might be able to pull it off. > > You've got a nice one. :) Most phase converters tend to look like this: > > http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html > > The interesting property of this kind is that as the load increases, the > more balanced the phases become. I don't know if I'd ever use something like that for a computer. I suppose it would probably be fine for something like a three-phase compressor or grinder motor, but I definitely would use a motor-generator set for a computer. No sense in tempting fate. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue May 16 11:05:25 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:05:25 -0400 Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <2152.86.138.231.62.1147782226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <2152.86.138.231.62.1147782226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <200605161205.25617.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 16 May 2006 08:23 am, Lee Davison wrote: > 10uF 16V capacitor. Uh, try 1uF/16V... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 16 12:12:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:12:23 -0700 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <4469FB3A.2070607@mich.com> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> <4469FB3A.2070607@mich.com> Message-ID: <200605161012230570.2886ABFF@10.0.0.252> On 5/16/2006 at 12:18 PM Dave Mabry wrote: >That part number, CP3044, sounds like the same drive that Zenith used in >the SupersPort series. If so, it uses a precursor to the standard IDE >interface and is unique. AFAIK, the CP3044 is a standard ATA drive--but don't take my word for it. Here's the product manual for the 3044: http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~kzs/hdd.dat/conner/cp3044.asc I do recall that in the early ATA days, the format of the response from the IDENTIFY command had some variation between manufacturers, but Conner pretty much set the standard for others to follow. The old Prarietek drives were a different kettle of fish, however. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 16 12:18:57 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:18:57 -0400 Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: <002501c67907$49e3b6b0$0401010a@GIZMO> References: <002501c67907$49e3b6b0$0401010a@GIZMO> Message-ID: <200605161318.57414.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 16 May 2006 12:39, Robert Armstrong wrote: > Maybe you can hook it up to HECnet - that'd be cool... > > Bob That sounds like a good idea, and should be fairly easy to accomplish. :) Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: Julian Wolfe [mailto:fireflyst at earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 2:07 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? > > > Hey, is anyone here interested in getting an ethernet DECnet network > together at VCFMW? > > I'll be bringing my PDP11 which has DECnet/E on it :) -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 16 12:25:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:25:33 -0700 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <446A06E9.5020101@gmail.com> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> <4469352C.7060308@gmail.com> <200605152015030061.258811D5@10.0.0.252> <446A06E9.5020101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605161025330604.2892BA09@10.0.0.252> On 5/16/2006 at 1:07 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >I don't know if I'd ever use something like that for a computer. I >suppose it would probably be fine for something like a three-phase >compressor or grinder motor, but I definitely would use a >motor-generator set for a computer. No sense in tempting fate. I've heard that utility companies really hate the idler-motor kind of phase converter. Apparently the PF of these things is nothing short of goshawful. On the other hand, the home windpower hobbyists(?) will sometimes take large three-phase induction motors and rework the rotor to use neodynium permanent magnets. Apparently, the result is an alternator that puts out a fair amount of power at low RPMs. So maybe there's some grist for someone's "do-it-yourself" rotary MG converter setup--though I'd hate to think about how squirrely the output frequency would get. Cheers, Chuck From kth at srv.net Tue May 16 12:42:36 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:42:36 -0600 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <446A06E9.5020101@gmail.com> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> <4469352C.7060308@gmail.com> <200605152015030061.258811D5@10.0.0.252> <446A06E9.5020101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <446A0F0C.4040600@srv.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> I have one. It's actually a motor-generator pair. *Extremely* >>> inefficient, but I think I might be able to pull it off. >> >> >> You've got a nice one. :) Most phase converters tend to look like this: >> >> http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html >> >> The interesting property of this kind is that as the load increases, the >> more balanced the phases become. > > > I don't know if I'd ever use something like that for a computer. I > suppose it would probably be fine for something like a three-phase > compressor or grinder motor, but I definitely would use a > motor-generator set for a computer. No sense in tempting fate. If you've got the money, there are companies making solid state phase converters. I know of a wood shop using one for shapers, planers, wide belt sander; and it works much better, and more efficently, than his previous motor/phase converter did. His old equipment gained more power with just that switch, with lower power usage. He went to a solid state version, because the motorized version would not work with the motors in some new equipment he wanted to use. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 16 12:32:44 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:32:44 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <200605161025330604.2892BA09@10.0.0.252> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> <4469352C.7060308@gmail.com> <200605152015030061.258811D5@10.0.0.252> <446A06E9.5020101@gmail.com> <200605161025330604.2892BA09@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <446A0CBC.6010100@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/16/2006 at 1:07 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> I don't know if I'd ever use something like that for a computer. I >> suppose it would probably be fine for something like a three-phase >> compressor or grinder motor, but I definitely would use a >> motor-generator set for a computer. No sense in tempting fate. > > I've heard that utility companies really hate the idler-motor kind of phase > converter. Apparently the PF of these things is nothing short of > goshawful. What part of the circuit magnifies the lag? Peace... Sridhar > On the other hand, the home windpower hobbyists(?) will sometimes take > large three-phase induction motors and rework the rotor to use neodynium > permanent magnets. Apparently, the result is an alternator that puts out a > fair amount of power at low RPMs. So maybe there's some grist for > someone's "do-it-yourself" rotary MG converter setup--though I'd hate to > think about how squirrely the output frequency would get. From lee at geekdot.com Tue May 16 12:49:42 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 19:49:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture Message-ID: <3744.86.138.231.62.1147801782.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> >> 10uF 16V capacitor. > Uh, try 1uF/16V... 106 is 10 with 6 '0's = 10,000,000 pF = 10uF Lee. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 16 12:59:48 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:59:48 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <446A0F0C.4040600@srv.net> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> <4469352C.7060308@gmail.com> <200605152015030061.258811D5@10.0.0.252> <446A06E9.5020101@gmail.com> <446A0F0C.4040600@srv.net> Message-ID: <446A1314.7050107@gmail.com> Kevin Handy wrote: >>>> I have one. It's actually a motor-generator pair. *Extremely* >>>> inefficient, but I think I might be able to pull it off. >>> >>> >>> You've got a nice one. :) Most phase converters tend to look like this: >>> >>> http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html >>> >>> The interesting property of this kind is that as the load increases, the >>> more balanced the phases become. >> >> >> I don't know if I'd ever use something like that for a computer. I >> suppose it would probably be fine for something like a three-phase >> compressor or grinder motor, but I definitely would use a >> motor-generator set for a computer. No sense in tempting fate. > > If you've got the money, there are companies making solid state phase > converters. I know of a wood shop using one for shapers, planers, wide > belt sander; and it works much better, and more efficently, than > his previous motor/phase converter did. His old equipment gained > more power with just that switch, with lower power usage. > > He went to a solid state version, because the motorized version > would not work with the motors in some new equipment he > wanted to use. How do they work? One of the ones I was trying out used a full-time capacitor network, but it cost waay too much and didn't have the kind of load capacity I was looking for. The PF was pretty good, though. Peace... Sridhar From dmabry at mich.com Tue May 16 13:03:07 2006 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:03:07 -0400 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <200605161012230570.2886ABFF@10.0.0.252> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> <4469FB3A.2070607@mich.com> <200605161012230570.2886ABFF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <446A13DB.50106@mich.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 5/16/2006 at 12:18 PM Dave Mabry wrote: > > > >>That part number, CP3044, sounds like the same drive that Zenith used in >>the SupersPort series. If so, it uses a precursor to the standard IDE >>interface and is unique. >> >> > >AFAIK, the CP3044 is a standard ATA drive--but don't take my word for it. >Here's the product manual for the 3044: > >http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~kzs/hdd.dat/conner/cp3044.asc > >I do recall that in the early ATA days, the format of the response from the >IDENTIFY command had some variation between manufacturers, but Conner >pretty much set the standard for others to follow. > >The old Prarietek drives were a different kettle of fish, however. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > You are correct. Thanks for the link to the reference material. I was thinking of the predecessors from Connor that had three digit model numbers (343 perhaps?). So the 3044 is a "normal" ATA drive. It would be interesting to see if something can be done to make the GRiD see a different model number. Dave From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 16 14:30:41 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:30:41 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <446A1314.7050107@gmail.com> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <446A0F0C.4040600@srv.net> <446A1314.7050107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605161530.41737.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 16 May 2006 13:59, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > He went to a solid state version, because the motorized version > > would not work with the motors in some new equipment he > > wanted to use. > > How do they work? One of the ones I was trying out used a full-time > capacitor network, but it cost waay too much and didn't have the kind > of load capacity I was looking for. The PF was pretty good, though. Well, the "easy" way to do it, would be to use a rectifier and capacitor network to convert to DC, and some high current/voltage chopper transistors and an output filter (maybe an isolating transformer, or step up/down transformer depending on what you wanted for an output voltage) - essentially on on-line 3-phase UPS without any batteries. Of course, you could add a battery bank in the middle to give it some UPS functionality. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 16 14:49:14 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:49:14 -0400 Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture References: <3744.86.138.231.62.1147801782.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <001001c67921$cf71a110$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Davison" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 1:49 PM Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture > >> 10uF 16V capacitor. > > > Uh, try 1uF/16V... > > 106 is 10 with 6 '0's = 10,000,000 pF = 10uF > > Lee. > > Is there anything special about that part? From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 16 14:59:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:59:29 -0700 Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <001001c67921$cf71a110$0b01a8c0@game> References: <3744.86.138.231.62.1147801782.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> <001001c67921$cf71a110$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200605161259290316.291FA6AD@10.0.0.252> On 5/16/2006 at 3:49 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >Is there anything special about that part? I'd almost wager it's a decoupling capacitor. See where each side goes--if between ground and a power supply rail, you have your answer and a plain aluminum electrolytic would do as a replacement. Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue May 16 15:02:58 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:02:58 -0500 Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: <200605161318.57414.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Heh, it'll be the only way I get on until I get my home systems situated with a working DECnet-over-IP solution. Stupid GameCube won't run DECnet cause it's not built into the kernel :p (haven't tried Johnny's bridge on the cube yet, that's next on my list) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 12:19 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? > > On Tuesday 16 May 2006 12:39, Robert Armstrong wrote: > > Maybe you can hook it up to HECnet - that'd be cool... > > > > Bob > > That sounds like a good idea, and should be fairly easy to > accomplish. :) > > Pat > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Julian Wolfe [mailto:fireflyst at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 2:07 PM > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? > > > > > > Hey, is anyone here interested in getting an ethernet > DECnet network > > together at VCFMW? > > > > I'll be bringing my PDP11 which has DECnet/E on it :) > > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 16 15:35:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:35:38 -0700 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <446A0CBC.6010100@gmail.com> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200605151806320294.25126AA0@10.0.0.252> <4469352C.7060308@gmail.com> <200605152015030061.258811D5@10.0.0.252> <446A06E9.5020101@gmail.com> <200605161025330604.2892BA09@10.0.0.252> <446A0CBC.6010100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605161335380844.2940C12B@10.0.0.252> On 5/16/2006 at 1:32 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >What part of the circuit magnifies the lag? It's both the phase converter itself and the driven load. Here's an interesting explanation: http://www.phaseconverterinfo.com/phaseconverter_voltagebalance.htm What with IGBTs now being in the "affordable" range, maybe the best idea is a solid-state unit. Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at wowway.com Tue May 16 16:14:31 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:14:31 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <200605161530.41737.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200605162110.k4GLAjCA023339@pop-8.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Considering this started out from the IBMCollectables point of view, and has drifted a bit off topic :) Having been involved with trade shows in the past, I can assure you the best solution for a one/two day event is to rent or buy a generator. I am aware of a number of high horsepower industrial applications that run on chopped DC that is produced by separate multi fuel generators. While Evan is confident of more show space next year, I do not think a running System/3 would be the best use of that space. Where the S/32-S/36 were built for small business and small office electrical requirements. The System 3 has a M/G, and power is not negotiable with that beast. The most basic configuration, CPU, front Desk console, and card punch and reader takes up a big footprint. Not to mention the choice of printer and disk drive power needs.. Off the top of my head, my wish list would be for a clean quiet generator. Then for a custom trailer where people can walk through much like the NASA display trucks. Well hell, anyone at NASA ready to scrap a display truck that is not total trash ? Lets Dream Big ..... The other Bob :) From lee at geekdot.com Tue May 16 16:20:16 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:20:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture Message-ID: <1224.86.138.231.62.1147814416.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Is there anything special about that part? My guess is no, any similar electrolytic that physically fits should work. The K means +/-10% tolerance and the 310 is the package type (I think). Lee. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 16 16:58:23 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:58:23 -0400 Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture References: <1224.86.138.231.62.1147814416.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <005301c67933$da4955d0$0b01a8c0@game> I got the calipers out and measured the broken part and it looks like a case size C EIA Code 6032 (according to my Allied Electronics catalog). >From www.alliedelec.com I get stock number 213-1091 TAJ Series TAJC106K016R 16V Standard Solid tantalum Chip Capacitor 10uF case C $.15 each As long as the 310 marking doesn't mean anything special I guess I know what I need to order. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Davison" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:20 PM Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture > > Is there anything special about that part? > > My guess is no, any similar electrolytic that physically fits should work. > > The K means +/-10% tolerance and the 310 is the package type (I think). > > Lee. > > > From john at guntersville.net Tue May 16 16:58:23 2006 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:58:23 -0500 Subject: ISA Network Boards Message-ID: <446A4AFF.2F0AA361@guntersville.net> I have a number of 16 bit ISA network cards that can be had for shipping cost from Guntersville.AL. 35976 in case someone wants them. Quantity Brand Model Connector 2 3Com Eitherlink II/16TP 3C503-16-TP RJ/AUI 2 3Com Eitherlink III 3C509-TP RJ/AUI 1 3Com Etherlink 16 TP RJ 1 3Com Etherlink 16 AUI/BNC 5 Intel 8/16 RJ/AUI 2 SMC RJ/AUI/BNC 1 ??? SMC chip RJ 2 David Systems RJ 2 ??? WD8013EBT AUI/BNC 1 IBM Auto 16/4 1 ??? Intel chip RJ Also a large number of serial cards, serial/parallel cards, CGA video cards and 3 CC-832 four port serial cards. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 16 17:02:18 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at May 16, 2006 03:02:58 PM Message-ID: <200605162202.k4GM2IH0000365@onyx.spiritone.com> > Heh, it'll be the only way I get on until I get my home systems situated > with a working DECnet-over-IP solution. > > Stupid GameCube won't run DECnet cause it's not built into the kernel :p > (haven't tried Johnny's bridge on the cube yet, that's next on my list) You're running Unix on your Nintendo Gamecube?!?! OK, you've got me interested, why, and what is it doing? Zane From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue May 16 17:05:23 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 18:05:23 -0400 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <200605152343230317.2646CD59@10.0.0.252> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> <200605152343230317.2646CD59@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <446A4CA3.3010203@nktelco.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > My Grid 1040 shows the following 3 DPT entries: > > 612 cylinders, 2 heads, 17 sectors/head > 612 cylinders, 4 heads, 17 sectors/head > 612 cylinders, 2 heads, 34 sectors/head > > IOW, 20 MB, 40 MB and 40 MB. > > Interesting. The information I found said 20MB, 40MB and 120MB, although it was specifically referring to the 1520. I didn't try to dig around the BIOS with debug to see what was there though. > Is is possible to load a driver to access other types of disks? Maybe, but > Grid hard disk controllers are in a world of their own. At least they're > not at the standard port addresses. > So then I will have no luck trying to use any PC disk diagnostics software? I tried something that I had in a box of old DOS disks and it didn't work... -chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue May 16 17:10:59 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 18:10:59 -0400 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <446A13DB.50106@mich.com> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> <4469FB3A.2070607@mich.com> <200605161012230570.2886ABFF@10.0.0.252> <446A13DB.50106@mich.com> Message-ID: <446A4DF3.2000400@nktelco.net> Dave Mabry wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> IDENTIFY command had some variation between manufacturers, but Conner I tested the drive by installing it in a NetBSD machine and it showed the name of the drive during kernel startup. I couldn't get it to read any sectors though. > > It would be interesting to see if something can be done to make the > GRiD see a different model number. > That was a thought that I had too. Perhaps replace the name of the drive in the BIOS with the name of a drive I have available. I wouldn't even have to change the geometry if I was willing to waste some (most) of the disk. -chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue May 16 17:23:01 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 18:23:01 -0400 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <446A13DB.50106@mich.com> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> <4469FB3A.2070607@mich.com> <200605161012230570.2886ABFF@10.0.0.252> <446A13DB.50106@mich.com> Message-ID: <446A50C5.8040109@nktelco.net> Dave Mabry wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> >> AFAIK, the CP3044 is a standard ATA drive--but don't take my word for >> it. There is one thing that is not typical about the CP3044 and that is the relative placement of the 40pin header and the power connector. The 1520 uses an adapter board to connect the floppy and HD to the motherboard. This adapter board fixes the relative location of the floppy header, HD header, and HD power connectors. The HD is actually installed inverted in the computer. (I wonder if that orientation is acceptable for all drives.) The CP3044 aligns the power pins with the row of header pins furthest from the disk platters. Newer drives seem to align the power connector pins with the mid-line between the header pins. -chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 16 17:16:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:16:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for chip info 1968-69 vintage, 989102 and 989105 In-Reply-To: <4469182F.8010707@PACBELL.NET> from "BOB LAAG" at May 15, 6 05:09:19 pm Message-ID: > > Wondering about info on these old chips from 1968-69. The numbers are > 989102 and 989105... What they are and where info may be found... Those numbers look like 'house codes' to me. What are these chips out of, how many pins, any info at all on what they might do? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 16 17:20:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:20:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: (Broken Part) Was ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <002201c678b8$9f9956e0$0b01a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at May 16, 6 03:16:16 am Message-ID: > > Well my ISA video capture cards arrived Monday and I noticed a part had > snapped on a Tantalum? Capacitor. > > Anybody know what spec part this is and where to find another one (nothing > to solder leads to on the part where the metal leg got ripped off, solder > pads on the board are intact). > > Here is the picture of the part in question: > > http://home.neo.rr.com/unknownk/ > > Has a brown looking line on the one side, orange body (or dark yellow) > markings are: 106, 16k, 310 from top to bottom (the small K has a bar under > and over it). > > I hope this is a common part. Sure sounds like a tantalum bead capacitor. The '106' encodes the value. Read it as 10*10^6 picofarads -- that is 10uF. the '16' might well be the working voltage (sounds about right for a capacitor on such a PCB). My guess is that it''s a supply decoupler and that the board will work fine without it. If you want to replace it (and I guess you should), trace the connections (with an ohmmeter). Hopefully one side will go to ground, the other to a known supply line. You cna then determine the polarity (if it goes to a +ve supply line, then the ground connections is the -ve side, and so on). Make sure you fit the replacement the right way round, they explode if you get them wrong, and they smell horrible. -tony From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue May 16 17:50:12 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:50:12 -0700 Subject: GRiD 1520 portable computer In-Reply-To: <446A50C5.8040109@nktelco.net> References: <44691975.9080303@nktelco.net> <4469FB3A.2070607@mich.com> <200605161012230570.2886ABFF@10.0.0.252> <446A13DB.50106@mich.com> <446A50C5.8040109@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <446A5723.3020904@DakotaCom.Net> C. H. Dickman wrote: > Dave Mabry wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> >>> AFAIK, the CP3044 is a standard ATA drive--but don't take my word for >>> it. > There is one thing that is not typical about the CP3044 and that is the > relative placement of the 40pin header and the power connector. The 1520 > uses an adapter board to connect the floppy and HD to the motherboard. > This adapter board fixes the relative location of the floppy header, HD > header, and HD power connectors. The HD is actually installed inverted > in the computer. (I wonder if that orientation is acceptable for all In the machines I have worked on, I have found (IDE) drives installed "normally", upside down, on either *side* edge as well as pointing straight up/down (connector on top/bottom). I have (so far) only encountered SCSI drives oriented "normally" or on their side edges. (though I suspect no differences between them and their IDE counterparts). Most manufacturers describe allowed mounting orientations in their data sheets for the drives. > drives.) The CP3044 aligns the power pins with the row of header pins > furthest from the disk platters. Newer drives seem to align the power > connector pins with the mid-line between the header pins. From cctalk at catcorner.org Tue May 16 18:09:01 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 19:09:01 -0400 Subject: Inventorying a bunch of 8" disks Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360B9@MEOW.catcorner.org> I have at least 1500 8" disks of various manufacture, density, and sides. Some are manufacturer's originals, some are well marked copies, others are marked in hand written Korean. Hundreds are marked in "user shorthand", and are probably quite un-interesting. Among the manufacturers I see are DEC, Altos, Microsoft, Digital Research, Pickles and Trout, Xerox and Tandy. There are also at least 30 CPMUG disks. I know at least one is a Scott Addams adventure disk for CP/M. I'd like to start inventorying them, dumping their content (using ImageDisk and the catweasel both), and trying to determine the "source" of the unknown disks. I know the usual warnings about these old disks: clean the drives, make sure they're not pinched in the sleeve, make sure there is no dust on the surface, etc. What other precautions should I take. Any and all _contructive_ advice welcome. Kelly From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 16 19:06:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:06:36 -0700 Subject: Inventorying a bunch of 8" disks In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360B9@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360B9@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200605161706360872.2A01E51D@10.0.0.252> On 5/16/2006 at 7:09 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: >I'd like to start inventorying them, dumping their content (using >ImageDisk and the catweasel both), and trying to determine the "source" of >the unknown disks. I know the usual warnings about these old disks: clean >the drives, make sure they're not pinched in the sleeve, make sure there >is no dust on the surface, etc. What other precautions should I take. > >Any and all _contructive_ advice welcome. Make sure that the write enable tabs are removed. From useddec at aol.com Tue May 16 20:28:02 2006 From: useddec at aol.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 20:28:02 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <200605161530.41737.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <000901c67951$242e3e00$4f00a8c0@main> If you are serious, I have a 3 phase UPS. Paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 2:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint On Tuesday 16 May 2006 13:59, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > He went to a solid state version, because the motorized version > > would not work with the motors in some new equipment he > > wanted to use. > > How do they work? One of the ones I was trying out used a full-time > capacitor network, but it cost waay too much and didn't have the kind > of load capacity I was looking for. The PF was pretty good, though. Well, the "easy" way to do it, would be to use a rectifier and capacitor network to convert to DC, and some high current/voltage chopper transistors and an output filter (maybe an isolating transformer, or step up/down transformer depending on what you wanted for an output voltage) - essentially on on-line 3-phase UPS without any batteries. Of course, you could add a battery bank in the middle to give it some UPS functionality. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 16 20:52:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 02:52:18 +0100 Subject: Inventorying a bunch of 8" disks In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360B9@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360B9@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <446A81D2.5050607@yahoo.co.uk> Kelly Leavitt wrote: > Hundreds are marked in "user shorthand", and are probably quite un-interesting. Be careful, there. It depends on who the users were :-) I've had lots of floppies from ex-employees of computer companies, and the ones with hand-written labels often contain rather interesting stuff (unreleased products, design documentation, unreleased source code etc.) Unless you *know* who the users were, don't automatically dismiss the contents as boring... cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 16 21:43:29 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:43:29 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <000901c67951$242e3e00$4f00a8c0@main> References: <000901c67951$242e3e00$4f00a8c0@main> Message-ID: <446A8DD1.2080501@gmail.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > If you are serious, I have a 3 phase UPS. Is it a permanent-rectifier model? If so, and if it has a high enough power rating, I would be interested. Peace... Sridhar From evan at snarc.net Tue May 16 21:45:17 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:45:17 -0400 Subject: Sept. 83 Byte? Message-ID: <004301c6795b$ef41a780$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'd like to own this issue as a general reference. Does anyone have an extra copy? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 16 21:47:59 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 19:47:59 -0700 Subject: VCF East 3 -- pictures here In-Reply-To: <002f01c6784a$fcd0c050$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: Hi There is an interesting machine with what looks like a drum. It looks like some kind of home built. Is there a description of it? Dwight >From: "Evan Koblentz" >For the people not on our local list, here are some picture anthologies: >- http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html >- http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/ >- http://ahm.ath.cx/photos/VCFE3.0/ > >There will be more soon. > From evan at snarc.net Tue May 16 21:52:09 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:52:09 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 -- pictures here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004401c6795c$e4b754d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Which picture? Point me to the link. -----Original Message----- From: dwight elvey [mailto:dkelvey at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 10:48 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: VCF East 3 -- pictures here Hi There is an interesting machine with what looks like a drum. It looks like some kind of home built. Is there a description of it? Dwight >From: "Evan Koblentz" >For the people not on our local list, here are some picture anthologies: >- http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html >- http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/ >- http://ahm.ath.cx/photos/VCFE3.0/ > >There will be more soon. > From bob at jfcl.com Tue May 16 23:26:37 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:26:37 -0700 Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: <200605161318.57414.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <002401c6796a$166993f0$0401010a@GIZMO> >That sounds like a good idea, and should be fairly easy to accomplish. :) Let me know if you need help or a Multinet termination. Maybe we can arrange to have some of the other old(er) computers on HECnet running that weekend and you can provide a pass thru for people to log in. That'd be interesting. Bob From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 00:41:23 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:41:23 -0700 Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: <002401c6796a$166993f0$0401010a@GIZMO> References: <002401c6796a$166993f0$0401010a@GIZMO> Message-ID: At 9:26 PM -0700 5/16/06, Robert Armstrong wrote: > >That sounds like a good idea, and should be fairly easy to accomplish. :) > > Let me know if you need help or a Multinet termination. > > Maybe we can arrange to have some of the other old(er) computers on HECnet >running that weekend and you can provide a pass thru for people to log in. >That'd be interesting. That would be interesting. What weekend is it? Can a VAXstation 4000/60 or /90 be swapped in for a /VLC without requiring any changes to the OS (network config)? If so, depending on the weather (we're in a heat wave right now), I could probably get my segment back up and running. If it is cool enough, that could include my PDP-11/73 (most likely running RSTS/E V10.1). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed May 17 01:07:54 2006 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free: new IBM Wireless LAN Entry PCMCIA cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have several PCMCIA Wireless cards I'm giving away for the cost of shipping. CONUS only, please. Might be useful if you have some old laptops you'd like to network. Here's a picture of the box with specs: http://nut.net/ebay/ibm/boxlabel1024x871.jpg And here's the deal: the first three responders get a case of five (5) cards, complete with drivers for various obsolete operating systems. Brand spanking new! Note: these are 2.4GHz cards, but they are not 802.11. I believe they'll do peer-to-peer as well as talk to an access point (IBM 8227), but I never used them myself. I'll ship them UPS Ground and you pay the actual shipping charge via paypal. Or pick them up if you're near Seattle. Cheers, Doug From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 17 04:41:00 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:41:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Kennedy 96xx tape drives Message-ID: <25206.135.196.233.27.1147858860.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Folks, Does anyone here have good troubleshooting tips and/or spare parts for these heavyweight beasties? We seem to be having a bad run with a handful of them at the moment and we're running out of ideas apart from what we already have in the half of a service manual we've got :o) TIA! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cc at corti-net.de Wed May 17 04:42:29 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:42:29 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Unknown IC Message-ID: Hello, I have several unknown ICs from AMI, numbered 1315-P-2, a picture can be found on ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ic/ami1315.jpg I think they came from ITT 3287 terminals (or ITT Courier, or Courier Terminal Systems). I have several boards from those terminals (all from around 1976-77), they used the i8008 as processor (see picture). The unknown AMI IC is found on a board labelled CURSOR/BUFFER. I have boards with that IC as only LSI chip, or along with a Signetics 2650. So my question is, what is that AMI chip? Has anyone a datasheet? Oh, and I have some NatSemi 1409, 40 pins, as found on the TIMING board (which also contains 16 i1404 1kBit MOS shift registers as display memory), what is that? Christian From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed May 17 04:58:15 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:58:15 +0200 Subject: Unknown IC Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0668174C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I vaguely remember the AY-1315 (not sure!!), but that 40-pin IC was a 8-bit data parallel to serial data bi-directional converter. A sort of a UART. To send serial data, you put the 8-bit data parallel in its 8 input pins, strobed an other pin and then the data with start- and stopbit came out of another pin :-) But, as said, memory is vague, but it might help ... - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti > Sent: woensdag 17 mei 2006 11:42 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Unknown IC > > Hello, > > I have several unknown ICs from AMI, numbered 1315-P-2, a > picture can be found on > ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ic/ami1315.jpg > I think they came from ITT 3287 terminals (or ITT Courier, or > Courier Terminal Systems). I have several boards from those > terminals (all from around 1976-77), they used the i8008 as > processor (see picture). > The unknown AMI IC is found on a board labelled > CURSOR/BUFFER. I have boards with that IC as only LSI chip, > or along with a Signetics 2650. > So my question is, what is that AMI chip? Has anyone a datasheet? > Oh, and I have some NatSemi 1409, 40 pins, as found on the > TIMING board (which also contains 16 i1404 1kBit MOS shift > registers as display memory), what is that? > > Christian > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cctalk at catcorner.org Wed May 17 05:05:55 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 06:05:55 -0400 Subject: Inventorying a bunch of 8" disks Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360BC@MEOW.catcorner.org> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:52 PM > > > Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > Hundreds are marked in "user shorthand", and are probably > quite un-interesting. > > Be careful, there. It depends on who the users were :-) > > I've had lots of floppies from ex-employees of computer > companies, and the > ones with hand-written labels often contain rather interesting stuff > (unreleased products, design documentation, unreleased source > code etc.) > > Unless you *know* who the users were, don't automatically > dismiss the contents > as boring... > I still fully intend to inventory the contents where readable. The ones that apperear to be in Korean look very interesting. Many have a part number in english that maps to a panasonic portable terminal similar to the Radio Shack PT210. Might be ROM source, might be just a co-incidence. Any one on the list know Korean that could at least verify the language? Kelly From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 17 06:15:35 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:15:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: Christian Corti "Unknown IC" (May 17, 11:42) References: Message-ID: <10605171215.ZM12186@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 17 2006, 11:42, Christian Corti wrote: > found on ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ic/ami1315.jpg > I think they came from ITT 3287 terminals (or ITT Courier, or Courier > Terminal Systems). I have several boards from those terminals (all > from around 1976-77), they used the i8008 as processor (see picture). > The unknown AMI IC is found on a board labelled CURSOR/BUFFER. I have > boards with that IC as only LSI chip, or along with a Signetics 2650. A 2650 is a microprocessor. I don't recognise the 1315. Henk's recollection of the AY-xxxx UART may be a little off, I think -- I believe he's thinking of an AY-3-1015 or AY-5-1013, both of which are UARTs very like the standard Intersil 6402 UART (in fact the 6402 is almost identical, but with slightly different electrical characteristics). The AY- series were made by General Instrument Corporation and included things like keyboard encoders, UARTs, sound generators, etc. > So my question is, what is that AMI chip? Has anyone a datasheet? > Oh, and I have some NatSemi 1409, 40 pins, as found on the TIMING > board (which also contains 16 i1404 1kBit MOS shift registers as display > memory), what is that? Dunno about that either, sorry. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed May 17 06:22:23 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East 3 -- pictures here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > There is an interesting machine with what looks like a drum. > It looks like some kind of home built. Is there a description of > it? Is this the one? http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/dscn4129-f.jpg That's Mike Pearson's CT-650 computer trainer. Here's a picture of the writeup: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/dscn4128-f.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pechter at gmail.com Wed May 17 07:04:24 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:04:24 -0400 Subject: Kennedy 96xx tape drives In-Reply-To: <25206.135.196.233.27.1147858860.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <25206.135.196.233.27.1147858860.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: What's the symptom and what's the interface... Pertec? What are they hooked up to? I seem to remember these on Vaxes back in the old days and they would run parts of the DEC diags and the OS was a good test. Bill On 5/17/06, Witchy wrote: > > Folks, > > Does anyone here have good troubleshooting tips and/or spare parts for > these heavyweight beasties? We seem to be having a bad run with a handful > of them at the moment and we're running out of ideas apart from what we > already have in the half of a service manual we've got :o) > > TIA! > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > From caveguy at wowway.com Wed May 17 07:24:31 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:24:31 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 -- pictures here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200605171226.k4HCQIrV004381@pop-7.dnv.wideopenwest.com> That was based on a project in a book, its current owner located it in canada and was very interisting to talk with. It was my moms favorite at the show :) The other Bob On Wed, 17 May 2006 07:22:23 -0400 (EDT), Mike Loewen wrote: >On Tue, 16 May 2006, dwight elvey wrote: >> There is an interesting machine with what looks like a drum. >> It looks like some kind of home built. Is there a description of >> it? > Is this the one? >http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/dscn4129-f.jpg > That's Mike Pearson's CT-650 computer trainer. Here's a picture of the >writeup: >http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/dscn4128-f.jpg >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed May 17 07:27:14 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:27:14 +0200 Subject: Unknown IC Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0668174D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Pete's correct! I was indeed thinking of the 3-1015, and that is of course not the same as 1315 :-) The 2650 is the 8-bit microprocessor from Philips. Sorry, can't be of more help ... - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: woensdag 17 mei 2006 13:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Unknown IC > > On May 17 2006, 11:42, Christian Corti wrote: > > > found on ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ic/ami1315.jpg > > I think they came from ITT 3287 terminals (or ITT Courier, > or Courier > > Terminal Systems). I have several boards from those terminals (all > > from around 1976-77), they used the i8008 as processor (see > picture). > > The unknown AMI IC is found on a board labelled > CURSOR/BUFFER. I have > > boards with that IC as only LSI chip, or along with a > Signetics 2650. > > A 2650 is a microprocessor. I don't recognise the 1315. > Henk's recollection of the AY-xxxx UART may be a little off, > I think -- I believe he's thinking of an AY-3-1015 or > AY-5-1013, both of which are UARTs very like the standard > Intersil 6402 UART (in fact the 6402 is almost identical, but > with slightly different electrical characteristics). The AY- > series were made by General Instrument Corporation and > included things like keyboard encoders, UARTs, sound generators, etc. > > > So my question is, what is that AMI chip? Has anyone a datasheet? > > Oh, and I have some NatSemi 1409, 40 pins, as found on the TIMING > > board (which also contains 16 i1404 1kBit MOS shift registers as > display > > memory), what is that? > > Dunno about that either, sorry. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From caveguy at wowway.com Wed May 17 08:16:46 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:16:46 -0400 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0668174D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <200605171312.k4HDCxCA007857@pop-8.dnv.wideopenwest.com> I think the 2650 was later purchased by philips, or someone like that. It was introduced by Signetics in late 1975 or early 1976. The infamous WOM write only memory datasheet was originally introduced by Signetics about the same time as the 2650 family and was often distributed with the 2650 data sheet as a joke.. The largest Commercial user of the 2650 was Infotext later purchased by Addressigraph Multigraph or Addressagrief Multigrief by those of us working there at the time of take over. It was a copy control system and reporting system for large copying machines. Up to 50 systems could communicate with the datalogger over a current loop serial network using the onboard primitive uart on the 2650. We used a card punch to punch the ID and Department info on to plastic access cards. The 2650 was also used in pinball machines where there is still al call for them as replacements. I put a few on ebay about a year or two back, they went fast to several pinball repair guys, I guess there is not much new/old stock remaining.. The other Bob On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:27:14 +0200, Gooijen, Henk wrote: >Pete's correct! I was indeed thinking of the 3-1015, and that >is of course not the same as 1315 :-) The 2650 is the 8-bit >microprocessor from Philips. Sorry, can't be of more help ... >- Henk. From bob at jfcl.com Wed May 17 12:05:51 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:05:51 -0700 Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001c679d4$2d2e6240$e33136d0@GIZMO> >Can a VAXstation 4000/60 or /90 be swapped in for a /VLC AFAIK, a 60 can substitute for a VLC any day. They're nearly identical. The 90 has a different Ethernet adapter and hence a different device name, EZA0/ISA-0, which will screw up your network(s) until you fix it (which is fairly easy to do). Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 17 12:28:05 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:28:05 -0700 Subject: M9312 boot prom listings Message-ID: Someone just forwareded two scans of M9312 boot prom listings. The second one K-SP-M9312-0-7_Aug78.pdf fills in a couple of missing ones, if someone feels like entering the data and forwarding it to Jay to add to his prom archive. The listings are under dec/unibus on bitsavers. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 12:38:12 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: <002001c679d4$2d2e6240$e33136d0@GIZMO> from "Robert Armstrong" at May 17, 2006 10:05:51 AM Message-ID: <200605171738.k4HHcCrm022220@onyx.spiritone.com> > > >Can a VAXstation 4000/60 or /90 be swapped in for a /VLC > > AFAIK, a 60 can substitute for a VLC any day. They're nearly identical. > > The 90 has a different Ethernet adapter and hence a different device name, > EZA0/ISA-0, which will screw up your network(s) until you fix it (which is > fairly easy to do). > > Bob OK, I'll pull the 60 if I can get up to storage. I don't want to have to muck with fixing up the device names if I can help it. I'll have to spend enough time typing in the licenses that expired. The less time I have to spend, the more likely I am to be able to get the system up for this. Zane From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed May 17 12:54:36 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:54:36 -0700 Subject: ISO: DG/UX4.20MU04 (ix86) media Message-ID: <446B635C.7070205@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, It appears that one of my CD's is missing :-( I have the 4.20 media, 4.20MU04 boot floppy and several patches to the 4.20MU04 upgrade -- but can't find the MU04 upgrade itself! (grrr....) Admittedly a LONG shot, but can anyone here lend a hand? Thanks, --don From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 17 13:21:13 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 19:21:13 +0100 Subject: Kennedy 96xx tape drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Varying things from not loading tapes to SCSI I/O errors. The interfaces are 8 bit SCSI, 50 pin centronics. The one we picked up this morning was showing I/O errors when powered by SUSE Linux 8.1 with either an Adaptec 2940 or 39160, one last week had severe smoke damage on the servo pre-amp board but no matching collateral damage on the board it's fastened to! The week before we had one with the analogue board not giving the pre-req 3V on each of the channels. Problem is, we've only got half a service manual with additions of various bits of paper over the years for running diags/calibration etc but with no explanation as to why things are done the way they are, just button presses. I can plug them into pretty much anything from pc to Mac to SUN to VAX to Alpha. Cheers :) On 17/5/06 13:04, "Bill Pechter" wrote: > What's the symptom and what's the interface... Pertec? > What are they hooked up to? I seem to remember these on Vaxes back in the > old days and they would run parts of the DEC diags and the OS was a good > test. > > Bill > > On 5/17/06, Witchy wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> Does anyone here have good troubleshooting tips and/or spare parts for >> these heavyweight beasties? We seem to be having a bad run with a handful >> of them at the moment and we're running out of ideas apart from what we >> already have in the half of a service manual we've got :o) >> >> TIA! >> >> -- >> adrian/witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? >> > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed May 17 13:26:23 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:26:23 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <446A0F0C.4040600@srv.net> References: <000a01c67880$3ee72300$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <446A06E9.5020101@gmail.com> <446A0F0C.4040600@srv.net> Message-ID: <200605171426.23490.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 16 May 2006 01:42 pm, Kevin Handy wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> I have one. It's actually a motor-generator pair. *Extremely* > >>> inefficient, but I think I might be able to pull it off. > >> > >> You've got a nice one. :) Most phase converters tend to look like this: > >> > >> http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html > >> > >> The interesting property of this kind is that as the load increases, the > >> more balanced the phases become. > > > > I don't know if I'd ever use something like that for a computer. I > > suppose it would probably be fine for something like a three-phase > > compressor or grinder motor, but I definitely would use a > > motor-generator set for a computer. No sense in tempting fate. > > If you've got the money, there are companies making solid state phase > converters. I know of a wood shop using one for shapers, planers, wide > belt sander; and it works much better, and more efficently, than > his previous motor/phase converter did. His old equipment gained > more power with just that switch, with lower power usage. > > He went to a solid state version, because the motorized version > would not work with the motors in some new equipment he > wanted to use. I read about these things from time to time in some of the machining and CNC groups I follow (there are a LOT of them I'm subscribed to). The devices is most often referred to as a "VFD", for variable-frequency drive, often used to drive the spindle of a mill or similar, and give you variable speed with a 3-phase motor. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From useddec at aol.com Wed May 17 13:40:06 2006 From: useddec at aol.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:40:06 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint In-Reply-To: <446A8DD1.2080501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c679e1$550c74c0$4f00a8c0@main> Hi, I had a Powerware 12/10 (7kw) and a 36/36. I think I sold one of them, but not sure which one. I do find them once in a while, but not nearly as often as the single phase ones. I think both are 240vdc. If you need more specs, let me know. I have 12, 24 48 and sometimes 60vdc units of various wattages, and an assortment of batteries. I run part of my house off of a UPS, and a large battery bank and solar panels. I plan on putting up a wind generator this summer. By the way, I have a friend building a 3 phase wind generator. Paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF East 3 - From the IBMcollectables.com viewpoint Paul Anderson wrote: > If you are serious, I have a 3 phase UPS. Is it a permanent-rectifier model? If so, and if it has a high enough power rating, I would be interested. Peace... Sridhar From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed May 17 14:22:57 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:22:57 +0200 Subject: Kennedy 96xx tape drives References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20157@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> On bitsavers in /pdf/kennedy is the 9600 maintenance manual, but you probably donwloaded that already ... - henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Adrian Graham Verzonden: wo 17-05-2006 20:21 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Kennedy 96xx tape drives Varying things from not loading tapes to SCSI I/O errors. The interfaces are 8 bit SCSI, 50 pin centronics. The one we picked up this morning was showing I/O errors when powered by SUSE Linux 8.1 with either an Adaptec 2940 or 39160, one last week had severe smoke damage on the servo pre-amp board but no matching collateral damage on the board it's fastened to! The week before we had one with the analogue board not giving the pre-req 3V on each of the channels. Problem is, we've only got half a service manual with additions of various bits of paper over the years for running diags/calibration etc but with no explanation as to why things are done the way they are, just button presses. I can plug them into pretty much anything from pc to Mac to SUN to VAX to Alpha. Cheers :) On 17/5/06 13:04, "Bill Pechter" wrote: > What's the symptom and what's the interface... Pertec? > What are they hooked up to? I seem to remember these on Vaxes back in the > old days and they would run parts of the DEC diags and the OS was a good > test. > > Bill > > On 5/17/06, Witchy wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> Does anyone here have good troubleshooting tips and/or spare parts for >> these heavyweight beasties? We seem to be having a bad run with a handful >> of them at the moment and we're running out of ideas apart from what we >> already have in the half of a service manual we've got :o) >> >> TIA! >> >> -- >> adrian/witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? >> > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 17 14:33:48 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:33:48 +0100 Subject: Kennedy 96xx tape drives In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20157@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: I haven't - thanks for the link! On 17/5/06 20:22, "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > On bitsavers in /pdf/kennedy is the 9600 maintenance manual, > but you probably donwloaded that already ... > > - henk. > > ________________________________ > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Adrian Graham > Verzonden: wo 17-05-2006 20:21 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Kennedy 96xx tape drives > > > > Varying things from not loading tapes to SCSI I/O errors. The interfaces are > 8 bit SCSI, 50 pin centronics. The one we picked up this morning was showing > I/O errors when powered by SUSE Linux 8.1 with either an Adaptec 2940 or > 39160, one last week had severe smoke damage on the servo pre-amp board but > no matching collateral damage on the board it's fastened to! The week before > we had one with the analogue board not giving the pre-req 3V on each of the > channels. > > Problem is, we've only got half a service manual with additions of various > bits of paper over the years for running diags/calibration etc but with no > explanation as to why things are done the way they are, just button presses. > > I can plug them into pretty much anything from pc to Mac to SUN to VAX to > Alpha. > > Cheers :) > > > On 17/5/06 13:04, "Bill Pechter" wrote: > >> What's the symptom and what's the interface... Pertec? >> What are they hooked up to? I seem to remember these on Vaxes back in the >> old days and they would run parts of the DEC diags and the OS was a good >> test. >> >> Bill >> >> On 5/17/06, Witchy wrote: >>> >>> Folks, >>> >>> Does anyone here have good troubleshooting tips and/or spare parts for >>> these heavyweight beasties? We seem to be having a bad run with a handful >>> of them at the moment and we're running out of ideas apart from what we >>> already have in the half of a service manual we've got :o) >>> >>> TIA! >>> >>> -- >>> adrian/witchy >>> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >>> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? >>> >> > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > > > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for > delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender > immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. > Thank you for your cooperation. > > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed May 17 16:27:57 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:27:57 -0500 Subject: Gamecube running Linux In-Reply-To: <200605162202.k4GM2IH0000365@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: I needed a Linux box that was stable and not being used for anything else, and they had the images on the web already set up. All I needed was a Phantasy Star Online CD and broadband adapter, which I had, and you can load the Linux system into it that way. I think it has some 40MB of memory, and the disk image size is 1gb. You netboot it via a remote UNIX system, in my case my Sun Netra T1 200. This is all just to have a DECnet bridge to get on HECnet. Who knew Nintendo was the one to provide it? :) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:02 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? > > > Heh, it'll be the only way I get on until I get my home systems > > situated with a working DECnet-over-IP solution. > > > > Stupid GameCube won't run DECnet cause it's not built into > the kernel > > :p (haven't tried Johnny's bridge on the cube yet, that's > next on my > > list) > > You're running Unix on your Nintendo Gamecube?!?! OK, you've > got me interested, why, and what is it doing? > > Zane > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 17 21:12:44 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:12:44 -0500 Subject: Help in the netherlands? Message-ID: <009e01c67a20$8e9b1c70$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I need to have some vintage cards picked up from a guy in the netherlands and mailed to me. He doesn't have a paypal account, and of course wants to be paid for shipping costs before he ships them. He doesn't know me from adam, and vice versa. So I was wondering if any list member would be willing to pick up the cards from him (he's not charging anything for the cards), and ship them to me. I'll paypal you the funds to cover shipping. The guy is located around: 9824 PE Noordwijk The Netherlands If no one can help, I'll probably see about an international money order. There are probably about six cards, and in total probably not more than a few pounds. Thanks in advance... Jay From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 17 23:10:41 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM system 34 to be melted down in Kentucky, if you let it... In-Reply-To: <20060516013454.57822.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I have two old IBM System 34 computers that I am > interested in selling or recovering the gold from > them. I hope he does not have his hopes set too high - not much gold in an S/34. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 17 23:13:02 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Phillips GPIB cable Message-ID: I have a 2 meter (or so) GPIB cable with a PM 9483/51 adapter, for use with that old Phillips logic analyzer. Anyone need this, ultra cheap? If not, in the scrap it goes. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 17 23:20:29 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:20:29 -0700 Subject: VCF East 3 -- pictures here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi I assume that the drum has the program on it. I should note that I do know a fellow who bought the rights to the cardiac from who ever it is that bell is own by today. I wonder if they actually still have the legal rights to manufacture and sell the cardiac. Bell owned the copy right. Dwight >From: Mike Loewen >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: RE: VCF East 3 -- pictures here >Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:22:23 -0400 (EDT) > >On Tue, 16 May 2006, dwight elvey wrote: > >>There is an interesting machine with what looks like a drum. >>It looks like some kind of home built. Is there a description of >>it? > > Is this the one? > >http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/dscn4129-f.jpg > > That's Mike Pearson's CT-650 computer trainer. Here's a picture of the >writeup: > >http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/dscn4128-f.jpg > > >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 17 23:55:59 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:55:59 -0700 Subject: Olivetti M20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi I finally have some success in getting a hard drive working on my M20 ( this is the machine with a Z8001 ). I wish to thank Tony, Berry and Fred for there input that helped along the way. I still have some issues but all have work arounds. 1. The BIOS sets the step rate too fast for the ST251. It seems to be around 2.5ms. I found the ST251 doesn't like more than 3ms. I wrote a program that I put on my boot floppy that sets it to 4.0ms. Does anyone know the correct step rate for the st251? I'll have to hack the BIOS some day to fix this. 2. The BIOS sets the precomp somewhere near cylinder 120. The st251 has no precomp and uses the pins as part of the head select. I've made a cut and jumper on my controller card to stop the RWC signal from going to the drive and the MFM generator chip. Again, this needs a BIOS hack. 3. I still don't know exactly where or the format of the bad sector map. I do know it is on one of the first 32 sectors and all 0's seems to indicate that there are no bad sectors. My drive has no bad sectors listed on the lable but if some else wants to use a st251 on the M20, they might need to know how to set this up. I had to do a couple of other hacks to the controller board I'm using but they are related to the boards original use ( a Tandy 5 Meg disk drive and controller ). I've not looked at the 5 Meg disk that came with it. It might have something interesting on it for the TRS80 folks but they most likely have everything someplace on the web already. We are still finding bits and pieces of code and documents for the M20's , even though there were many sold in Europe. M20's are just a little rare now. Most were sold to businesses and they tend to throw things out when they get obsolete. I'm always looking for more M20 owners that might have some software or manuals that can be added to the collection of items we are trying to save. I wonder if there are any more on this list? Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 18 00:24:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 22:24:54 -0700 Subject: Olivetti M20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605172224540321.304BA8E9@10.0.0.252> On 5/17/2006 at 9:55 PM dwight elvey wrote: >I still have some issues but all have work arounds. >1. The BIOS sets the step rate too fast for the ST251. It >seems to be around 2.5ms. I found the ST251 doesn't >like more than 3ms. I wrote a program that I put on my boot >floppy that sets it to 4.0ms. Does anyone know the correct >step rate for the st251? I'll have to hack the BIOS some >day to fix this. Dwight, the ST-251 has a buffered seek, so you should be able to fire out seek pulses at 100 usec intervals and wait for SEEK COMPLETE. The single-track seek time on the ST-251 is specified at 8 msec, with maximum seek (621 cylinders) at 70 msec. I suppose you could treat it like an ST506 and use 3msec, however. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 18 09:13:25 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:13:25 -0700 Subject: Olivetti M20 In-Reply-To: <200605172224540321.304BA8E9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Hi Chuck It definitely doesn't like stepping at around 2 to 2.5 ms someplace. I send the value 8 to the controller that is suppose to be 4.0 ms and that works fine. I don't know how a buffered seek would work on a MFM drive? Are you saying that it should take in what ever step pulses I send it and step at 8ms, regardless of what I send. That doesn't seem to be the case with my drive. I is definitely stepping at the rate I give it with a seek or restore command. I hope I'm not overdoing it too much with the 4.0ms. The stepper is right on the edge of quieting down at that rate. Similar to the optimizer programs that set the step rate for the floppies. It is right below the resonent speed. At 8.0ms it is really harsh sounding. Dwight >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Olivetti M20 >Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 22:24:54 -0700 > >On 5/17/2006 at 9:55 PM dwight elvey wrote: > > >I still have some issues but all have work arounds. > >1. The BIOS sets the step rate too fast for the ST251. It > >seems to be around 2.5ms. I found the ST251 doesn't > >like more than 3ms. I wrote a program that I put on my boot > >floppy that sets it to 4.0ms. Does anyone know the correct > >step rate for the st251? I'll have to hack the BIOS some > >day to fix this. > >Dwight, the ST-251 has a buffered seek, so you should be able to fire out >seek pulses at 100 usec intervals and wait for SEEK COMPLETE. The >single-track seek time on the ST-251 is specified at 8 msec, with maximum >seek (621 cylinders) at 70 msec. I suppose you could treat it like an >ST506 and use 3msec, however. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From jplist at kiwigeek.com Thu May 18 10:11:12 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:11:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Push button under the power cord cover on a VAX4000 Message-ID: Hey folks; My recently acquired VAX has started acting up, seems it doesn't always like to power on. When I hit the main switch, the PSU light comes on (orange, by the switch) but the DC OK light does not come on, nor does the chassis power up. I've found that to get the PSU fully powered up I have to turn it off, and push that momentary switch button under the power socket on the PSU. On the VAX there's a sliding cover thing, which when down allows you to plug in the power cord. When you slide it up, it covers the power socket, but allows you access to the thumbscrew which holds the PSU in. When you lift this cover up to gain access to this screw, the cover pushes on some little button under there. What on earth does this button do, and why is it my VAX won't power on until I hit it? :P My thanks all; JP From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 18 10:23:01 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:23:01 -0400 Subject: Push button under the power cord cover on a VAX4000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605181123.01590.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 18 May 2006 11:11, JP Hindin wrote: > Hey folks; > > My recently acquired VAX has started acting up, seems it doesn't > always like to power on. > When I hit the main switch, the PSU light comes on (orange, by the > switch) but the DC OK light does not come on, nor does the chassis > power up. I've found that to get the PSU fully powered up I have to > turn it off, and push that momentary switch button under the power > socket on the PSU. > > On the VAX there's a sliding cover thing, which when down allows you > to plug in the power cord. When you slide it up, it covers the power > socket, but allows you access to the thumbscrew which holds the PSU > in. When you lift this cover up to gain access to this screw, the > cover pushes on some little button under there. > > What on earth does this button do, and why is it my VAX won't power > on until I hit it? :P Without looking at a machine, it sounds like a circuit breaker reset button. Pat. -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 18 10:34:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:34:12 -0700 Subject: Olivetti M20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605180834120800.32797F81@10.0.0.252> On 5/18/2006 at 7:13 AM dwight elvey wrote: >Are you saying that it should take in what ever step pulses I send it >and step at 8ms, regardless of what I send. Not exactly--if you step between (according to the spec sheet) 5 and 500 usec, the drive treats it as a buffered seek request. Above that time, it tries to step at the rate you give it. AFAIK, only the original ST506 (and clones) required unbuffered seek. By the time the ST412 came out (long before the PC XT), buffered seek was the norm. It makes sense to use buffered seek as the drive electronics can make use of the ballistic nature of the seek mechanism (Newton's first law). A small almost-on-topic story here. When my wife bought her PC, PC-XT Taiwanese clones were just starting to make the appearance. The outfit she bought it from advertised "free hard disk and controller with purchase". It was a Xebec controller all right (nothing wrong with that), but a brand stinkin' new ST506--which the firmware on the Xebec wouldn't drive because of the unbuffered seek. Fortunately, it was a simple EPROM change (the Xebec COULD perform a 3 msec seek, it just didn't have that in its DPT). I've still got the 506, BTW, but the clone is long gone. But yeah, the 251 is definitely a buffered seek drive and you should use that capability if you can. Fire out your seek request with somewhere around 100 usec pulses, the drive will count them and then perform the seek, setting SEEK COMPLETE when done. And it will be quieter, too. Cheers, Chuck >That doesn't seem to be the case with my drive. I is definitely stepping >at the rate I give it with a seek or restore command. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 18 10:48:58 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: marginal OT: Intel cashes in ancient chips Message-ID: <200605181548.k4IFmwQu014452@floodgap.com> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/05/18/intel_cans_386_486_960_cpus/ Intel is ceasing production of the i960, i486 and i386 (!). The i960 is particularly interesting -- I thought that one was long gone. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why was I born with such contemporaries? -- Oscar Wilde -------------------- From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu May 18 11:52:40 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:52:40 -0500 Subject: EOL for Intel 186, 386, 486 and i960 Message-ID: The Register reports that Intel is discontinuing the 186, 386, 486, and i960 processor lines, with EOL next year. More information at http://developer.intel.com/design/pcn/Chipsets/PCN106013.pdf. Bob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 18 12:55:26 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 18:55:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Olivetti M20 In-Reply-To: "dwight elvey" "Re: Olivetti M20" (May 18, 7:13) References: Message-ID: <10605181855.ZM15211@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 18 2006, 7:13, dwight elvey wrote: > It definitely doesn't like stepping at around 2 to 2.5 ms someplace. > I send the value 8 to the controller that is suppose to be 4.0 ms and > that works fine. > I don't know how a buffered seek would work on a MFM drive? > Are you saying that it should take in what ever step pulses I send it > and step at 8ms, regardless of what I send. Not quite, what Chuck means is that most MFM drives after the ST506 have a slightly different interface, and should buffer the step pulses, and internally it will ramp up the step rate and ramp down again -- it can step faster once it gets going, than it can if it comes to a stop between pulses. This style of interface is often called an ST412 interface instead of ST506, because the ST412 was the first drive that supported it. Below is part of the Seagate data sheet for the ST251. You'll see the first line identifies it as an ST412-type interface rather than ST506. You can also see it can accept step pulses at quite short intervalsi, and should buffer them. If you give it a single pulse it will take 8ms to move one track, but if you feed it a series of pulses it should ramp its step rate up (and down when it's close to the destination cylinder) so that it can step the whole width of the disk in only 70ms. ST-251 ST412 MFM [ connector diagram goes here ] UNFORMATTED CAPACITY (MB) ________________51.2 FORMATTED CAPACITY (17 SECTORS) (MB) _____42.8 ACTUATOR TYPE ____________________________STEPPER TRACKS ___________________________________4,920 CYLINDERS ________________________________820 HEADS ____________________________________6 DISCS ____________________________________3 MEDIA TYPE _______________________________THIN FILM RECORDING METHOD _________________________MFM TRANSFER RATE (mbits/sec) ________________5.0 SPINDLE SPEED (RPM) ______________________3,600 AVERAGE LATENCY (mSEC) ___________________8.3 INTERFACE ________________________________ST412 SECTORS PER DRIVE ________________________83,640 TPI (TRACKS PER INCH) ____________________777 BPI (BITS PER INCH) ______________________9,935 AVERAGE ACCESS (ms) ______________________40/28* SINGLE TRACK SEEK (ms) ___________________8 MAX FULL SEEK (ms) _______________________ /70 MTBF (power-on hours) ____________________100,000 POWER REQUIREMENTS: +12V START-UP (amps) _2.0/2.5* +12V TYPICAL (amps) __0.5 +5V TYPICAL (amps) ___1.0/1.2* TYPICAL (watts) ______11/12* MAXIMUM (watts) ______29/36* BUFFERED STEP PULSE RATE (micro sec) _____3-200 WRITE PRECOMP (cyl) ______________________N/A (821) REDUCED WRITE CURRENT (cyl) ______________N/A (821) LANDING ZONE (cyl)________________________AUTO PARK IBM AT DRIVE TYPE ________________________44, 40, or 3** -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu May 18 13:10:10 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 19:10:10 +0100 Subject: Archive search Message-ID: <26c11a640605181110w45366c49i42eb8b66717b2691@mail.gmail.com> The archive search on classiccmp.org does not appear to be working. I thought it was me at first but I guess the words vax and unix have been mentioned here before ;) Dan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 18 13:18:29 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <26c11a640605181110w45366c49i42eb8b66717b2691@mail.gmail.com> from "Dan Williams" at May 18, 2006 07:10:10 PM Message-ID: <200605181818.k4IIITDC002793@onyx.spiritone.com> > The archive search on classiccmp.org does not appear to be working. I > thought it was me at first but I guess the words vax and unix have > been mentioned here before ;) > > Dan I'm not so sure they'd have been mentioned here before, this list doesn't really deal with Vacuum cleaners, or Harems. Zane From allain at panix.com Thu May 18 13:21:48 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:21:48 -0400 Subject: IBM system 34 to be melted down in Kentucky, if you let it... References: Message-ID: <007a01c67aa7$f2a40380$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >> I have two old IBM System 34 computers that I am >> interested in selling or recovering the gold from them. William D. said: > I hope he does not have his hopes set too high > - not much gold in an S/34. Help him make the right decision. Tell him how much. John A. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 18 13:17:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 19:17:17 +0100 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <26c11a640605181110w45366c49i42eb8b66717b2691@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640605181110w45366c49i42eb8b66717b2691@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <446CBA2D.7050803@yahoo.co.uk> Dan Williams wrote: > The archive search on classiccmp.org does not appear to be working. I > thought it was me at first but I guess the words vax and unix have > been mentioned here before ;) Hmm, I tried searching for something about a week ago that I knew had been posted recently and had the same trouble - I think Jay's said in the past though that the archives screw up whilst they're being re-indexed or something, so I just put it down to that and thought nothing more of it (the reason for needing to search went away). Perhaps there's a more serious problem at work though... cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 18 14:19:26 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:19:26 -0500 Subject: hp 264x terms on ebay Message-ID: <005801c67aaf$faf714c0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The guy emailed me and is ready to talk about a volume purchase deal now. Apparently sales tapered off ;) I will be emailing everyone who emailed me off-list to confirm... Jay From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 18 15:15:20 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:15:20 -0700 Subject: hp 264x terms on ebay Message-ID: > The guy emailed me and is ready to talk about a volume purchase deal now. Has anyone actually RECEIVED one of that they bought from him? I probably was one of the first to buy one, and it ain't here yet. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 18 15:32:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:32:38 -0700 Subject: Olivetti M20 In-Reply-To: <10605181855.ZM15211@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <10605181855.ZM15211@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200605181332380000.338ABA23@10.0.0.252> On 5/18/2006 at 6:55 PM Pete Turnbull wrote: >Not quite, what Chuck means is that most MFM drives after the ST506 >have a slightly different interface, and should buffer the step pulses, >and internally it will ramp up the step rate and ramp down again -- it >can step faster once it gets going, than it can if it comes to a stop >between pulses. Just a tidbit somewhat OT--I own a 5.25" floppy drive with buffered seek. It's a Micropolis that still uses a leadscrew positioner long after most other manufacturers had gone to alternatives like taut-band. When a seek is initiated, it de-asserts READY until the seek is complete. It uses a house-numbered MCU in a 40 pin DIP made by MOS Technology. The clamping arrangement is somewhat unique--when the drive door is opened, the positioner and drive motor are attached to a die-cast subassembly that pivots to open. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 18 17:50:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:50:18 -0600 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 18 May 2006 19:17:17 +0100. <446CBA2D.7050803@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Jay mentioned to me off-list that the archive search basically doesn't work until about 10 PM - 3 AM. At 3 AM the indexer starts again and doesn't finish until about 10 PM(!). He would like some volunteers to hack the python code to be more efficient or something, but I don't know python. Please contact Jay to help out and get the specifics! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu May 18 18:01:09 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp 264x terms on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060518230109.73043.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > > The guy emailed me and is ready to talk about a > volume purchase deal now. > > Has anyone actually RECEIVED one of that they bought > from him? > > I probably was one of the first to buy one, and it > ain't here yet. I ordered a couple almost a month ago, shortly after Al mentioned them. I've gotten several apologies from the seller, and a claim that the terminals shipped very recently, but I've not seen them. I asked for a tracking number and got a reply today that he would get the number from his pack-and-ship place, but nothing yet. I wouldn't recommend sending this guy any more money until we've verified that he's shipped some product. --Bill From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 18 18:15:41 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 18, 2006 04:50:18 PM Message-ID: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> > Jay mentioned to me off-list that the archive search basically > doesn't work until about 10 PM - 3 AM. At 3 AM the indexer starts > again and doesn't finish until about 10 PM(!). He would like some > volunteers to hack the python code to be more efficient or something, > but I don't know python. Please contact Jay to help out and get the > specifics! Ouch, I don't do python (something about it taking 10 seconds for "Hello, World" to run on my VMS server). It sounds to me like this is a good candidate for running either once a week, or once a month. Zane From allain at panix.com Thu May 18 20:27:15 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:27:15 -0400 Subject: hp 264x terms on ebay References: <20060518230109.73043.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <029f01c67ae3$66480a80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> I probably was one of the first to buy one, and it >> ain't here yet. > nothing yet. I wouldn't recommend sending this guy > any more money until we've verified that he's shipped > some product. Is this the guy in Tyler, TX ? John A. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu May 18 20:41:18 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 18:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp 264x terms on ebay In-Reply-To: <029f01c67ae3$66480a80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20060519014118.38699.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Is this the guy in Tyler, TX ? Yes. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu May 18 20:50:26 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:50:26 -0400 Subject: hp 264x terms on ebay In-Reply-To: <20060518230109.73043.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060518230109.73043.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <044AD6D2-C5CD-4D54-A5FD-33C68D903940@colourfull.com> I ordered one right after Al. I have also had a couple of excuses from the seller, and no terminal. He has answered my emails when I've written him though. Rob On May 18, 2006, at 7:01 PM, William Maddox wrote: > --- Al Kossow wrote: > >>> The guy emailed me and is ready to talk about a >> volume purchase deal now. >> >> Has anyone actually RECEIVED one of that they bought >> from him? >> >> I probably was one of the first to buy one, and it >> ain't here yet. > > I ordered a couple almost a month ago, shortly after > Al mentioned them. I've gotten several apologies from > the seller, and a claim that the terminals shipped > very recently, but I've not seen them. I asked for a > tracking number and got a reply today that he would > get the number from his pack-and-ship place, but > nothing yet. I wouldn't recommend sending this guy > any more money until we've verified that he's shipped > some product. > > --Bill > From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 18 20:55:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 18:55:12 -0700 Subject: marginal OT: Intel cashes in ancient chips In-Reply-To: <200605181548.k4IFmwQu014452@floodgap.com> References: <200605181548.k4IFmwQu014452@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200605181855120745.34B20A72@10.0.0.252> On 5/18/2006 at 8:48 AM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/05/18/intel_cans_386_486_960_cpus/ > >Intel is ceasing production of the i960, i486 and i386 (!). The i960 is >particularly interesting -- I thought that one was long gone. So, in 10 years, the keychain fob with 386 and 486 bare dice in it will be on-topic for this list? I can hardly wait! Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu May 18 22:58:05 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 22:58:05 -0500 Subject: orange smoke from a CDC Magnetic Perepherals 94161-156 Message-ID: More fun from the CV 32- the CDC fixed SCSI drive sent up smoke signals today. Does anyone know what the first SMD coming off of the +12v lead is on these guys? it doesn't look like a fuse, and (in the past) orange smoke seems to mean tantalum caps. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 19 00:00:56 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 00:00:56 -0500 Subject: pushbutton under the power cord cover on a VAX4000 Message-ID: It is definitely a pushbutton switch- I haven't traced mine out, but I figured it was a "lawyer button" to do something like discharge the caps . . . From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 19 00:49:10 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 00:49:10 -0500 Subject: inverse assembler for hp 163x logic analyzer Message-ID: <446D5C56.2080802@pacbell.net> I tried searching the agilent web site, hoping they might have been kind to users of their obsolete equipment. Indeed, they were nice enough to post the manual for the 1631D, which is the model I have. They didn't provide any disk images for the Z80 inverse assembler, aka disassembler, software. Does anybody on the list know of a source of this software, or perhaps has it and is willing to make a dup? I have a Wang 2275 storage unit (hard disk + floppy) that fails to boot up, and it uses a Z80 as the controller. Fortunately, I have a second, working, 2275. By switching the disks between the units I have been able to image both hard drives, but it would be nice to get the 2nd unit going. Thanks. From cc at corti-net.de Fri May 19 06:50:27 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:50:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2006, Christian Corti wrote: > I have several unknown ICs from AMI, numbered 1315-P-2, a picture can be > found on ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ic/ami1315.jpg > I think they came from ITT 3287 terminals (or ITT Courier, or Courier > Terminal Systems). I have several boards from those terminals (all from > around 1976-77), they used the i8008 as processor (see picture). > The unknown AMI IC is found on a board labelled CURSOR/BUFFER. I have boards > with that IC as only LSI chip, or along with a Signetics 2650. I have some more information in the hope that it might help identify this chip. First, there are some pictures of the interior of the 1315-P-2 (also on the FTP site, see above), what you can see is an area with a masked programmed ROM, drivers and some random logic. Next, the 2650 is *NOT* from Signetics, it's from Synertek, it's labelled 2650-P-01, and it's definitely *NOT* a 2650 CPU (completely different pinout). There's a picture of it sitting on the board along with the 1315-P-2 in the directory /pub/cm/itt/. And last (for now), the terminal this came from is an ITT 3285 or ITT 3287, identical to a Courier Terminal Systems C270 terminal, based on the i8008 and later i8080, that were used as terminals on IBM 360/370 systems. I have scanned the handbook for installation planning which contains a product listing, also in /pub/cm/itt/. Does anyone have a copy of the service manual for this terminal? It should reveal what these chips are. Is there a datasheet or description of the Synertek chip? Christian From sb at thebackend.de Fri May 19 07:43:08 2006 From: sb at thebackend.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Sebastian_Br=FCckner?=) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:43:08 +0200 Subject: DEC Pro 350: RAM ICs? Message-ID: <446DBD5C.6020200@thebackend.de> Hello everyone, I recently got a DEC PRO 350. It suffering from a lack of RAM since two of its three memory boards are defective (one of the small ones that plug into the mainboard and one that goes into the extension cage and seems to carry its own DRAM controller in logic). I first wanted to take a look at the small one but I can't even find any info on the ICs used: JAPAN 8304U 21-18470-01 There is a small logo that seems to indicate Hitachi as manufacturer [1]. Google refused to find anything on these chips. Does anyone know a few things about them? Pinout and timing would be a fair start... Thanks Sebastian [1] http://www.linksiden.dk/sub/ic_logo.htm From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 19 08:55:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:55:18 +0100 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> He would like some >> volunteers to hack the python code to be more efficient or something, >> but I don't know python. Sounds more like it needs rewriting in a more efficient language to me (isn't Python interpreted? Probably not a good choice for search indexing!) I can't imagine the indexing code's *that* complicated - I expect it's the search side and how to quickly find results in the masses of data that tends to be the tricky part. > "Hello, World" to run on my VMS server). It sounds to me like this > is a good candidate for running either once a week, or once a month. Hmm, isn't the dictionary (mapping words to codes) static and built up from existing archives? 'new' words found subsequently will get longer codes assigned to them and be less efficient, but if the initial sample data is large it won't necessarily matter. Beats rebuilding the dictionary and re-assigning codes all the time, assuming that's what's done at the moment. If the dictionary is static then files can be indexed as they arrive rather than the whole archive needing scanning every x hours to keep indexes in sync. (This was the assumption I was basing some desktop search code on which I was writing - but that's another one of those half-done projects that's sitting a way down on the priority list to complete right now. I found myself not being able to find anything in my local archives and couldn't find anything available on the 'net to do the job) cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 19 12:04:15 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:04:15 -0500 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <446DFA8F.9010804@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sounds more like it needs rewriting in a more efficient language to me Python compiles to p-code, it's fine. I'm sure the code is inefficient, or he has REALLY slow disk. Either way, the indexing doesn't need to be run every single night; once a week is fine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 19 11:58:11 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:58:11 +0100 Subject: -5V rail in a PC... Message-ID: <446DF923.4090104@yahoo.co.uk> Question on a local newsgroup about PC power supplies and whether the -5V rail is used any more, and it's prompted me to wonder what it was *ever* used for? Did the original IBM PC make use of -5V for any reason? Or is its inclusion maybe a hang-up from earlier machines that used three-rail memory devices? Far as I know, things that needed -ve rails (like soundcards, serial ports etc.) all used -12V... curious. cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 19 12:09:57 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:09:57 -0600 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <446DFA8F.9010804@oldskool.org> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk> <446DFA8F.9010804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <446DFBE5.4020708@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Sounds more like it needs rewriting in a more efficient language to me > > > Python compiles to p-code, it's fine. I'm sure the code is inefficient, > or he has REALLY slow disk. > > Either way, the indexing doesn't need to be run every single night; once > a week is fine. A disk sort once or twice a year would be handy too! From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 19 12:11:18 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <446DFA8F.9010804@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 19, 2006 12:04:15 PM Message-ID: <200605191711.k4JHBIjB027267@onyx.spiritone.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Sounds more like it needs rewriting in a more efficient language to me > > Python compiles to p-code, it's fine. I'm sure the code is inefficient, > or he has REALLY slow disk. > > Either way, the indexing doesn't need to be run every single night; once > a week is fine. I don't like Python, but I don't think it's to blame here. I've got a website setup on my VMS server where I have a lot of information that I want to be able to search. IIRC, the search software I'm running is written in C, and it is less than 18GB of data (18GB 10K LVD drive on a UW-SCSI controller). I think it tooks something like three hours last time I indexed the data (the data is basically static, so I run the update manually when I add more). Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 19 12:25:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:25:02 -0700 Subject: -5V rail in a PC... In-Reply-To: <446DF923.4090104@yahoo.co.uk> References: <446DF923.4090104@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200605191025020444.380553CA@10.0.0.252> On 5/19/2006 at 5:58 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Did the original IBM PC make use of -5V for any reason? Or is its >inclusion >maybe a hang-up from earlier machines that used three-rail memory devices? The original PC used 3-supply 16Kx1 DRAMs. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri May 19 12:40:27 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:40:27 +0100 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032 at onyx.spiritone.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Ouch, I don't do python (something about it taking 10 seconds for > "Hello, World" to run on my VMS server). It sounds to me like this > is a good candidate for running either once a week, or once a month. Sounds like Perl on my NSLU2. Two seconds to do a hello world, nearly ten to run SpamAssassin over a single message. The same hello world app in C ran instantly (or quick enough that I couldn't time it), and my homebrew spam filter isn't much slower despite all the PCRE calls. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G VF+UniPod philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 1G+180G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 19 12:55:21 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 19, 2006 06:40:27 PM Message-ID: <200605191755.k4JHtLYJ028662@onyx.spiritone.com> Phil wrote: > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > Ouch, I don't do python (something about it taking 10 seconds for > > "Hello, World" to run on my VMS server). It sounds to me like this > > is a good candidate for running either once a week, or once a month. > > Sounds like Perl on my NSLU2. Two seconds to do a hello world, nearly ten to > run SpamAssassin over a single message. The same hello world app in C ran > instantly (or quick enough that I couldn't time it), and my homebrew spam > filter isn't much slower despite all the PCRE calls. NSLU2? What on earth is that? BTW, I don't have any issues with the speed of Perl or Ruby on my VMS server, just Python. The actual execution of Python on VMS seems to be fairly fast, at least on my box, the problem is the overhead with starting it. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri May 19 12:59:41 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:59:41 -0700 Subject: DEC Pro 350: RAM ICs? In-Reply-To: <446DBD5C.6020200@thebackend.de> References: <446DBD5C.6020200@thebackend.de> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90605191059i3b9e7154gca2f4b48b516c6cc@mail.gmail.com> On 5/19/06, Sebastian Br?ckner wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I recently got a DEC PRO 350. It suffering from a lack of RAM since two > of its three memory boards are defective (one of the small ones that > plug into the mainboard and one that goes into the extension cage and > seems to carry its own DRAM controller in logic). > I first wanted to take a look at the small one but I can't even find any > info on the ICs used: > The docs say they can either be 64Kx1 or optionally 256Kx1 chips. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ I'll take a look at the chips on the boards I have and see what markings they have. BTW, how do you get the cards out of the card cage? Pull the lever? Twist the lever? Both? I haven't figured out how the ZIF sockets are supposed to work and don't want to break anything trying. From lee at geekdot.com Fri May 19 13:12:58 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 20:12:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: -5V rail in a PC... Message-ID: <3102.86.138.231.62.1148062378.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Far as I know, things that needed -ve rails (like soundcards, serial > ports etc.) all used -12V... Can't say I've ever seen it used. I've just looked at a 200W PSU and the -5V rail is speced at 0.1A so you couldn't run much from it anyway. Also I've never bothered adding the -5V line to my VIC 20 ISA backplane, I've yet to find a card that uses it. The one card that does have +/-5V analogue supplies uses 78L05 and 79L05 regulators from the +/-12V rails. Lee. From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 19 13:24:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:24:03 -0600 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 19 May 2006 10:11:18 -0700. <200605191711.k4JHBIjB027267@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200605191711.k4JHBIjB027267 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > I don't like Python, but I don't think it's to blame here. >From what I recall of the discussion with Jay, the issue is a naive implementation combined with a huge data set. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri May 19 13:45:41 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 19:45:41 +0100 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <200605191755.k4JHtLYJ028662@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605191755.k4JHtLYJ028662@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <909398294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200605191755.k4JHtLYJ028662 at onyx.spiritone.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > NSLU2? What on earth is that? www.linksys.com -> search for NSLU2. Basically it's an ARM-powered mini server that runs Linux. They're designed to connect a USB hard drive or pendrive to a LAN (kind of a poor man's NAS), but there's been a lot of hacking done on them. I've got mine running Debian, with a custom kernel and the kernel-mode Speedtouch ADSL driver. At the moment it's doing the DSL routing, email downloading, spam filtering, print serving, some basic network monitoring (MRTG) and hosting my SVN repository. I've also been using it to tunnel through annoying firewalls... It's kinda nice to have files downloading when the connection is usually idle and have everything ready to go by the time I get home. CPU is an Intel IXP440 Xscale running at 133MHz, but it can be overclocked (well, actually de-underclocked) to run at 266MHz. It's only got 32MB of RAM, but that's plenty for what I use it for. Main reason I bought it was because it's totally fanless - the only noise is from the HDD. Certainly beats having a noisy PC running 24/7. I was kinda getting sick of swapping out case fans and power supplies... > BTW, I don't have any issues with the speed of Perl or Ruby on my VMS > server, just Python. The actual execution of Python on VMS seems to be > fairly fast, at least on my box, the problem is the overhead with starting > it. That seems to be the problem on the NSLU as well. Once Perl is up and running, it's not too bad. It's the startup time (and RAM usage) that causes the problems (and SpamAssassin's sheer complexity). -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G VF+UniPod philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 1G+180G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 19 13:58:43 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 19:58:43 +0100 Subject: -5V rail in a PC... In-Reply-To: <200605191025020444.380553CA@10.0.0.252> References: <446DF923.4090104@yahoo.co.uk> <200605191025020444.380553CA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <446E1563.4090303@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/19/2006 at 5:58 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Did the original IBM PC make use of -5V for any reason? Or is its >> inclusion >> maybe a hang-up from earlier machines that used three-rail memory devices? > > The original PC used 3-supply 16Kx1 DRAMs. Hmm, always knew they were 16Kx1's, didn't think they were 3-rail though - I'll have to check what my board has when I get back to the UK. cheers Jules From wpileggi at juno.com Fri May 19 14:29:56 2006 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 19:29:56 GMT Subject: Free Amiga books, magazines, Tandy 1000RLX for shipping Message-ID: <20060519.123055.25391.789342@webmail17.lax.untd.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 19 14:46:17 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <909398294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 19, 2006 07:45:41 PM Message-ID: <200605191946.k4JJkHhC031503@onyx.spiritone.com> > www.linksys.com -> search for NSLU2. > Basically it's an ARM-powered mini server that runs Linux. They're designed > to connect a USB hard drive or pendrive to a LAN (kind of a poor man's NAS), > but there's been a lot of hacking done on them. I've got mine running Debian, Oh, now that is just plain cool! I don't think I've ever looked at any of this type device. I can't find any hard data, I assume it just talks Samba out of the box? Putting Debian on there offers up some real posibilites (NFS, Samba, Appletalk, and DECnet). Though that limited memory is a real bummer. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 19 15:01:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:01:28 -0700 Subject: -5V rail in a PC... In-Reply-To: <446E1563.4090303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <446DF923.4090104@yahoo.co.uk> <200605191025020444.380553CA@10.0.0.252> <446E1563.4090303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200605191301280113.38948A31@10.0.0.252> On 5/19/2006 at 7:58 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Hmm, always knew they were 16Kx1's, didn't think they were 3-rail though - >I'll have to check what my board has when I get back to the UK. They were 4116's (I've used enough of 'em). Pin 1 = VBB = -5, Pin 8 = VDD = +12, Pin 9 = VSS = Gnd, Pin 16 = VCC = 5. There was a way to upgrade a 64K PC mobo with suitable cuts and patches with 4164's. There was a 5v only 16K DRAM (4516), but it' wasn't terribly common, and, while similar to the 4116, the pinout wasn't 100% compatible (Pin 1 was given over to REFRESH*). The 4164 kept the Pin 1 = REFRESH* idea, and gave pin 9 over to A7, so upgrading wasn't terrible. The 150 ma output of the -5 v rail on the PC PSU was more than enough to supply the bias to a whole bunch of DRAM, as current consumption runs only a couple hundred microamps per chip. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri May 19 15:38:48 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:38:48 -0400 Subject: -5V rail in a PC... In-Reply-To: <446DF923.4090104@yahoo.co.uk> References: <446DF923.4090104@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200605191638.48185.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 19 May 2006 12:58 pm, Jules Richardson wrote: > Question on a local newsgroup about PC power supplies and whether the -5V > rail is used any more, and it's prompted me to wonder what it was *ever* > used for? > > Did the original IBM PC make use of -5V for any reason? Or is its inclusion > maybe a hang-up from earlier machines that used three-rail memory devices? > > Far as I know, things that needed -ve rails (like soundcards, serial ports > etc.) all used -12V... > > curious. If I'm remembering right, the very earliest PC MBs came with 16 or 64K of ram, and that 16K involved dynamic ram that used that PS voltage. I think that the Apple II power supplies also provided a -5, as well. The only other place I remember that being used was on some of the early eprom chips and some CPUs like the 8080. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri May 19 15:53:32 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 21:53:32 +0100 Subject: Linksys NSLU2 (was Archive search) In-Reply-To: <200605191946.k4JJkHhC031503@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605191946.k4JJkHhC031503@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In message <200605191946.k4JJkHhC031503 at onyx.spiritone.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Oh, now that is just plain cool! I don't think I've ever looked at any of > this type device. has a load of info on what you can do with it. Even some hardware hacks (see below). I'm running OpenDebianSlug on mine, with a patched 2.6.16 kernel (2.6.12.2 is horrendously unstable). If you want the kernel modules and the flashbios image, I'll see about putting them online somewhere. > I can't find any hard data, I assume it just talks Samba out of the box? Yep. The web-admin interface is a bit quirky though; I prefer setting stuff up by editing the config files manually :) > Putting Debian on there offers up some real posibilites (NFS, Samba, > Appletalk, and DECnet). Though that limited memory is a real bummer. It's not a real big deal if you hook up a USB hard drive. Mine had about 10MB free until I installed the mailserver software (I'm using UW-IMAPD, IPOP3D and Postfix). It's also running the Cherokee webserver software, NFS, Subversion, MySQL, Samba's Winbind, SMBd and NMBd servers, some stuff to catch SNMP traps from the WiFi AP, fetchmail, CUPS and OpenSSH. Currently showing 8MB free RAM, and about 30MB swap in use. I've got 128MB swap allocated on the HDD, and you get about 30MB out of the 32MB RAM after the initrd's taken its cut. DebianSlug is supposedly the best version of Debian to use on an NSLU2, primarily because it uses packages from the official Debian ARMLE (little-endian ARM) port. OpenDebianSlug uses the OpenSlug big-endian kernel and the unofficial big-endian ARM port of Debian. I'm running OpenDebianSlug, no problems since the kernel swap, but the package updates sometimes lag a bit. They're also pretty hackable - you can replace the RAMs with larger chips and (in theory at least) go as far as 128 or 256MB. Not sure why you'd want to, but I'd like to give it a try at some point. Power consumption is only 5W or so - they're bundled with a 2A PSU, but 1A of that is 'reserved' for the USB ports. My USB hard drive (a firmware-patched IBM 75GXP in a Vantec Nexstar2 casing) wolfs about 30W... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G VF+UniPod philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 1G+180G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 19 16:11:22 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:11:22 -0500 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <446E347A.4060807@oldskool.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032 at onyx.spiritone.com> > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> Ouch, I don't do python (something about it taking 10 seconds for >> "Hello, World" to run on my VMS server). It sounds to me like this >> is a good candidate for running either once a week, or once a month. > > Sounds like Perl on my NSLU2. Two seconds to do a hello world, nearly ten to > run SpamAssassin over a single message. That sounds like startup cost talking. It takes 10 seconds to run SpamAssassin over a single message, but it probably takes 10 seconds to run it over 100 messages. Start Perl, Load code, Compile code... startup cost. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cctalk at catcorner.org Fri May 19 16:19:05 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:19:05 -0400 Subject: ST-412 interface specification Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360C6@MEOW.catcorner.org> Where can I find a good technical and electrical specification for these drives? I just want to see what it'll take to emulate them using modern hardware. My supply is dwindling. Thanks, Kelly From jwest at opensourceassociates.com Fri May 19 16:07:33 2006 From: jwest at opensourceassociates.com (Jay West) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:07:33 -0500 Subject: HP 264x terminals Message-ID: <00f001c67b88$3fc128b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Hummm WHY did I offer to organize a group purchase? I'm asking myself that. Apparently the seller saw and/or heard about the words of caution that some people here posted, one was a lack of terminals being shipped, another was 'lets hold off on a bulk purchase till at least some terminals are shipped'. I'd like to throw in a few tidbits: 1) The seller contacted me and appears to feel I have caused a bit of a problem because my list had negative comments about him. I explained to him that anyone on the list is free to post their experiences, advice, etc. without me censoring. Talk to the people who expressed their concerns, not me. Nuff said. 2) I have been assured by the seller that the terminals are in fact on the way to the non-group purchase people. My views are below: My impression (from a few email exchanges only) is that this is likely an honest guy that basically fell into a boatload of units, and after the first few has found it to be a HUGE effort to carefully clean one up, test it, photograph it, pack it (well!) for shipping, etc. I suspect he's found this is far more effort (and probably mostly time) than he'd care to spend on it. I'm not sure he anticipated what packing a heavy unit like the 264x can be like. Just tossing it into a cardboard box won't do and he's aware of that. And he's got 50 of 'em. Thats a lot of time. I understand very well the thoughts and concerns expressed by the folks here, and I will defend your right to share them. However, what I was hoping to do for a bulk purchase (if it can be pulled off still) is to have someone in the vicinity pick them up. There's no cleaning/testing/shipping issues for him, and hopefully that would be reflected in the price. I don't have experience with this seller or inside knowledge that causes me to say this - but going from my gut only, I'd say give the guy a little slack for now. My scam meter isn't going off just yet. Form your own opinion. Jay West From allain at panix.com Fri May 19 16:50:26 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:50:26 -0400 Subject: HP 264x terminals References: <00f001c67b88$3fc128b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <020201c67b8e$3db9d840$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > My impression (from a few email exchanges only) > is that this is likely an honest guy that basically > fell into a boatload of units, > I'd say give the guy a little slack for now. In other words, he fell in with a 'boatload of you nuts'. John A. hey, I ordered one too. 'us nuts' From pechter at gmail.com Fri May 19 16:55:59 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:55:59 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro 350: RAM ICs? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90605191059i3b9e7154gca2f4b48b516c6cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <446DBD5C.6020200@thebackend.de> <1e1fc3e90605191059i3b9e7154gca2f4b48b516c6cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I seem to rember twist 90 degrees to release the clamping on the interface... but it's been 5 years or so. Bill On 5/19/06, Glen Slick wrote: > > On 5/19/06, Sebastian Br?ckner wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > > > I recently got a DEC PRO 350. It suffering from a lack of RAM since two > > of its three memory boards are defective (one of the small ones that > > plug into the mainboard and one that goes into the extension cage and > > seems to carry its own DRAM controller in logic). > > I first wanted to take a look at the small one but I can't even find any > > info on the ICs used: > > > > The docs say they can either be 64Kx1 or optionally 256Kx1 chips. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ > > I'll take a look at the chips on the boards I have and see what > markings they have. > > BTW, how do you get the cards out of the card cage? Pull the lever? > Twist the lever? Both? I haven't figured out how the ZIF sockets are > supposed to work and don't want to break anything trying. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 20:17:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 02:17:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Pro 350: RAM ICs? In-Reply-To: <446DBD5C.6020200@thebackend.de> from "=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Sebastian_Br=FCckner?=" at May 19, 6 02:43:08 pm Message-ID: > > Hello everyone, > > I recently got a DEC PRO 350. It suffering from a lack of RAM since two > of its three memory boards are defective (one of the small ones that > plug into the mainboard and one that goes into the extension cage and > seems to carry its own DRAM controller in logic). > I first wanted to take a look at the small one but I can't even find any > info on the ICs used: > > JAPAN 8304U > 21-18470-01 That's a DEC house number... Hoe many pins do these chips have? If 16, I'll bet they're a common DRAM. Do you know the capacity of the board? If so, you should be able to work out what chips would have been used (e.g. if it's a 64K word board, and there are 16 chips, I'd guess they were 4164s). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 20:19:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 02:19:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: -5V rail in a PC... In-Reply-To: <446DF923.4090104@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at May 19, 6 05:58:11 pm Message-ID: > > > Question on a local newsgroup about PC power supplies and whether the -5V rail > is used any more, and it's prompted me to wonder what it was *ever* used for? > > Did the original IBM PC make use of -5V for any reason? Or is its inclusion > maybe a hang-up from earlier machines that used three-rail memory devices? Rememebr the _original_ PC -- the one with the 16-64K motherboard did use 3-rail RAMs (4116s) IIRC. And I think the CGA card did as well. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 20:21:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 02:21:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Pro 350: RAM ICs? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90605191059i3b9e7154gca2f4b48b516c6cc@mail.gmail.com> from "Glen Slick" at May 19, 6 10:59:41 am Message-ID: > BTW, how do you get the cards out of the card cage? Pull the lever? > Twist the lever? Both? I haven't figured out how the ZIF sockets are > supposed to work and don't want to break anything trying. Pull the tab out as far as it will go, then twist if (IIRC, clockwise, but I might well have mis-remembered that). Then slide the board out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 20:01:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 02:01:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: orange smoke from a CDC Magnetic Perepherals 94161-156 In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at May 18, 6 10:58:05 pm Message-ID: > > More fun from the CV 32- the CDC fixed SCSI drive sent up smoke signals today. > Does anyone know what the first SMD coming off of the +12v lead is on > these guys? > it doesn't look like a fuse, and (in the past) orange smoke seems to > mean tantalum caps. Can you trace the connections (e.g. with an ohmmeter)? If one side goes to the +12V line and the other to ground, then it's a very good bet that it's a decoupling capacitor, probably a tantalum one. The value would not be particularly critical (I would probably use 47uF or 100uF here). -tony From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri May 19 17:09:59 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:09:59 -0700 Subject: Home Brew Hardware / Software Message-ID: http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/ An interesting site with a lot of small projects. Check out especially: A Pathetic Instruction Set Computer http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/piscedu2.htm From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 19 19:14:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:14:02 -0700 Subject: ST-412 interface specification In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360C6@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360C6@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200605191714020929.397BC582@10.0.0.252> Well, there's the brief summary: http://www.seagate.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?/mfm/st412.txt If you want a really good rundown on the interface, here's one, unfortunately in Lithuanian: http://www.ik.ku.lt/lessons/konspekt/kompArch/referaty/Disk_kaupikliai2.htm Your biggest problem is going to be providing the serial raw data stream support. That is, taking fully-decoded data and providing a high-speed serialized MFM signal for reading and doing the reverse for writing. It's usually a lot simpler if you can ditch the old MFM controller and tie in a modern IDE drive directly. Cheers, Chuck On 5/19/2006 at 5:19 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: >Where can I find a good technical and electrical specification for these >drives? I just want to see what it'll take to emulate them using modern >hardware. My supply is dwindling. > >Thanks, >Kelly From cctalk at catcorner.org Fri May 19 19:30:19 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 20:30:19 -0400 Subject: ST-412 interface specification Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360C9@MEOW.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 8:14 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: ST-412 interface specification > > > Your biggest problem is going to be providing the serial raw data stream > support. That is, taking fully-decoded data and providing a high-speed > serialized MFM signal for reading and doing the reverse for writing. It's > usually a lot simpler if you can ditch the old MFM controller and tie in a > modern IDE drive directly. Here is the situation. I have many older systems that only support the ST-412 standard drives. Most use a WD-1005HDO style controller to talk to the machine's bus. I also have several that use a custom controller to interface the system bus directly to ST-412 (without the WD-1005HDO). I'd like to continue using these systems, but I'm quickly running out of working drives. I do have the specifications for the system bus, but most of the software interface is not documented. I would need to dissasemble the executables to figure out what is going on. What I interpret what you said above to mean is that the interface between the controller card and the ST-412 drive is not simply a digital interface. It is acutally the MFM stream bi-directionally, and that the controller is what converts this to the system required digital stream, and the systems digital stream to the MFM stream. Is this essentially correct? I did find the OEM manual for the 412 on the bitsavers archive. I'll start reading it over tonight. Kelly From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri May 19 19:30:05 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 02:30:05 +0200 Subject: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted Message-ID: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> Hello list members, I've got an mid-80s SGI IRIS in my collection, an IRIS 3130 in Control Data skins. What I'm looking for are boot or installation tapes that allow me to rebuild a working OS installation on one of the more or less compatible ESDI drives I've got. If someone can help me in this task, that would be greatly appreciated. When I started out with SGIs I almost didn't expect to ever get my hands on an IRIS 4D... a *real* IRIS was beyond all expectations. I've got some kind of inventory and dark pictures of the box online: http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/collection/1500.php For some better pictures have a look at Kayas "obsolete hardware" pages: http://hardware.majix.org/computers/sgi.iris/iris3130.shtml#pictures Both IRISes are actually only one machine. On a related note it would also be nice to hear from other IRIS owners in Europe. So far I know of NO OTHER rescued IRIS around here which is somewhat sad, if you ask me. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 19 19:44:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:44:05 -0700 Subject: ST-412 interface specification In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360C9@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360C9@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200605191744050633.3997470A@10.0.0.252> >What I interpret what you said above to mean is that the interface between >the controller card and the ST-412 drive is not simply a digital >interface. It is acutally the MFM stream bi-directionally, and that the >controller is what converts this to the system required digital stream, >and the systems digital stream to the MFM stream. > >Is this essentially correct? As long as the signal meets a few constraints, the drive doesn't care what the signal is. Think of the ST506 as a big fast floppy drive. Except for buffered seek, pretty much dumb as a stump. Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri May 19 19:46:51 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:46:51 -0700 Subject: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted In-Reply-To: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> References: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <200605191746.51297.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hi Gerhard, On Friday 19 May 2006 17:30, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: --snip-- > Both IRISes are actually only one machine. On a related note it would > also be nice to hear from other IRIS owners in Europe. So far I know > of NO OTHER rescued IRIS around here which is somewhat sad, if you ask > me. You might want to contact Ian Mapleson and check out his SGI site: http://www.vintagecomputers.info/ Ian's located in England - and has boot disks, etc. for MIPS - and maybe early 68xxx IRIS systems. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 19 21:25:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 21:25:21 -0500 Subject: inverse assembler for hp 163x logic analyzer References: <446D5C56.2080802@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <005801c67bb4$a561af10$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim, if you get no replies on this, I'll dig for my copy. I have it somewhere I'm quite sure. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 12:49 AM Subject: inverse assembler for hp 163x logic analyzer >I tried searching the agilent web site, hoping they might have been kind to >users of their obsolete equipment. Indeed, they were nice enough to post >the manual for the 1631D, which is the model I have. They didn't provide >any disk images for the Z80 inverse assembler, aka disassembler, software. > > Does anybody on the list know of a source of this software, or perhaps has > it and is willing to make a dup? I have a Wang 2275 storage unit (hard > disk + floppy) that fails to boot up, and it uses a Z80 as the controller. > > Fortunately, I have a second, working, 2275. By switching the disks > between the units I have been able to image both hard drives, but it would > be nice to get the 2nd unit going. > > Thanks. > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 19 21:51:21 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 14:51:21 +1200 Subject: DEC Pro 350: RAM ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <446DBD5C.6020200@thebackend.de> Message-ID: On 5/19/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > I recently got a DEC PRO 350.... > > I first wanted to take a look at the small one but I can't even find any > > info on the ICs used: > > > > JAPAN 8304U > > 21-18470-01 > > That's a DEC house number... > > How many pins do these chips have? If 16, I'll bet they're a common DRAM. > Do you know the capacity of the board? If so, you should be able to work > out what chips would have been used (e.g. if it's a 64K word board, and > there are 16 chips, I'd guess they were 4164s). The standard chips are 4164s. It's possible to remove them, replace them with 41256s and insert two wire jumpers on the board to upgrade it. I know there were instructions on the 'net somewhere, in an aggregate list of PRO-350 messages from a pre-web archive, but I was unable to find them just now. The upgrade is straightforward - remove the chips (easiest to clip the leads at the chip body and remove the pins one by one), add sockets if you are so inclined, install 16 x 41256 (don't recall the speed requirement, but 120ns parts should be fast enough - I don't think there are any 41256s slower than 150ns anyway), and look at one end of the board for jumpers labelled, IIRC W1 and W2 - install the jumpers for 256Kbit DRAMs, remove the jumpers for 64Kbit DRAMs. Don't mix parts - all one type or another. I have done this on one of my PRO-350s. No issues. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 19 23:43:24 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 21:43:24 -0700 Subject: Olivetti M20 In-Reply-To: <200605180834120800.32797F81@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Hi Chuck I gave it a try and yes, it works great. The WD1000 spec says that a value of 0 whritten to the step value would do 10 uS steps. This did just as you decribed. Thanks. Dwight >From: "Chuck Guzis" ---snip---- > >Not exactly--if you step between (according to the spec sheet) 5 and 500 >usec, the drive treats it as a buffered seek request. Above that time, it >tries to step at the rate you give it. > From brad at heeltoe.com Sat May 20 06:56:37 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 07:56:37 -0400 Subject: ST-412 interface specification In-Reply-To: Message from "Kelly Leavitt" of "Fri, 19 May 2006 20:30:19 EDT." <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360C9@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200605201156.k4KBublS023236@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Kelly Leavitt" wrote: > >What I interpret what you said above to mean is that the interface between the > controller card and the ST-412 drive is not simply a digital interface. It is > acutally the MFM stream bi-directionally, and that the controller is what con >verts this to the system required digital stream, and the systems digital stre >am to the MFM stream. > >Is this essentially correct? This sounds right to me. It would not be hard to make something in hardware to pull the clock and data back out. You'd then have (as I recall) the raw bytes for each sector (i.e. header + data + trailer). If you knew how the controller was programmed you could then easily find the data. It should also be reasonble to create the stream in the opposite direction. Some simple tests should prove it out. I have not done the math but it seems like a PIC or one of the low end ARM chips should be able to do this... worst case add a small CPLD to aid in the serial in/out. In other words, a ST-506 emulator. I'm pretty sure they exist as commercial products. (but for some reason I never see them ebay or other on-line auctions) ps: I found this for any Apple Lisa Profie users http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/idefile.htm -brad From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 20 11:53:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 09:53:07 -0700 Subject: ST-412 interface specification In-Reply-To: <200605201156.k4KBublS023236@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200605201156.k4KBublS023236@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200605200953070292.3D0E707C@10.0.0.252> On 5/20/2006 at 7:56 AM Brad Parker wrote: >This sounds right to me. It would not be hard to make something in >hardware to pull the clock and data back out. You'd then have (as I >recall) the raw bytes for each sector (i.e. header + data + trailer). > >If you knew how the controller was programmed you could then easily find >the data. It should also be reasonble to create the stream in the >opposite direction. Some simple tests should prove it out. Please suffer a fool and allow me to toss a few random thoughts out. I think it's a bit more complicated than what's been laid out. There are fields not seen on the output of an IDE or SCSI drive that are present on an MFM one, such as address headers (IAM, IDAM), ECC bytes, preamble, etc. And note that there will be a shift in timing when the RWC kicks in. Bit rate on an ST412, IIRC is about 5MHz over differential lines. The old WD100x MFM controllers could not keep up a sustained data transfer at unity interleave. IIRC, an interleave of 3:1 was about the minimum at which you could perform multi-sector reads, so you may want to take this into account. Since the controller isn't going to tell you what it's looking for, you may have to pass an entire track's worth of data past the controller before it finds the sector it's reading or writing. And, unless you want to incur sizeable delays, you'll need to simulate the rotation of the disk itself. Perhaps you could simulate the disk rotation by using a 256Kbit shift register to hold track data with the index mark generated every time position 000 went by. Fortunately, I believe that the WD1000 or 1001 controller OEM manual is on Bitsavers, so you've got a lot of very valuable information already. For the remainder, one of the WD "silver books" with chip specs should take care of things. As far as handling control lines, that should be pretty simple. My feeling is that this is a bit too weighty for a PIC to handle. --------------- OT: Has anyone run into this document before? It looks to be a very comprehensive guide to "everything you wanted to know about the PC": http://ftp2.de.freebsd.org/pub/mpsf/pc_doc/dosbesch.ps Does an English version exist? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 12:24:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 18:24:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-412 interface specification In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360C9@MEOW.catcorner.org> from "Kelly Leavitt" at May 19, 6 08:30:19 pm Message-ID: > Here is the situation. I have many older systems that only support the > ST-412 standard drives. Most use a WD-1005HDO style controller to talk This is a problem that many of us have. And the HDAs are not the sort of thing that can easily be repaired in a home workshop. > to the machine's bus. I also have several that use a custom controller > to interface the system bus directly to ST-412 (without the WD-1005HDO). I haev a couple of PERQs that use ST412 drives. The controller is part of a large (200+ chip) I/O board, so can't easily be repiaced. It consists of a 2910 sequencer + microcode PROMs + FIFOs + ... Yes, I have schematics, but I don't feel like redesigning that lot. The second problem is that the PERQ puts filesystem pointers in 4 words of the sector header (it reduces the inter-sector gaps to compensate, I guess). Which makes using a 'fromatted intereface' drive, like SCSI or IDE a little more difficult, since they expect to store the data in each sector only. > I'd like to continue using these systems, but I'm quickly running out of > working drives. > > I do have the specifications for the system bus, but most of the > software interface is not documented. I would need to dissasemble the > executables to figure out what is going on. > > What I interpret what you said above to mean is that the interface > between the controller card and the ST-412 drive is not simply a digital > interface. It is acutally the MFM stream bi-directionally, and that the Well, it is a digital interface in the sense that all the signals are 2-state. You don't actually get the head connections on the interface connector, the read amplifier chain, write drivers, etc are part of the drive's electronics. There are restrictions on the pulse rate too, but apart from that, anything goes. It doesn't have to be MFM encoded, for example. The drive has no concept of sectors, it's up to the cotnroller to detect and decode the sector headers. You step the heads to a particular cylinder, you select a head, and then uou get the bitstream from that track. That's it. > controller is what converts this to the system required digital stream, > and the systems digital stream to the MFM stream. Yes. That's why the ST412 controllers are more complicated than, say, an IDE interface (which is just an address decoder and buffers most of the time). -tony From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sat May 20 13:15:23 2006 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 14:15:23 -0400 Subject: Free for the taking HP/Apollo, vt100, wyse, Sun Ultra 5 In-Reply-To: <200605191711.k4JHBIjB027267@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605191711.k4JHBIjB027267@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <22239BB9-A379-490B-83D2-53E45FDF3450@mind-to-mind.com> With the size of my NeXT collection growing, I'm running out of space, and these things need to go. I rescued 4 HP/Apollo machines from the dumpster, 2 are PA-RISC and 2 are 68040 machines.... I can dig up the exact information if anyone is interested. The vt100 was used by Brown University, and I believe it is in working condition, as is the wyse. The Ultra 5's (3 of them) have 15" monitors, and lot's of spare bits like drive cages etc. I'm in Rhode Island, though I'm often in the Burlington/Bedford area of MA. If nobody is interested in these things I'm going to either put them on ebay, or dump them. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat May 20 13:28:19 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 11:28:19 -0700 Subject: Free for the taking HP/Apollo, vt100, wyse, Sun Ultra 5 In-Reply-To: <22239BB9-A379-490B-83D2-53E45FDF3450@mind-to-mind.com> References: <200605191711.k4JHBIjB027267@onyx.spiritone.com> <22239BB9-A379-490B-83D2-53E45FDF3450@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: What are the 68040s? Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From evan at snarc.net Sat May 20 16:48:28 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 17:48:28 -0400 Subject: Rescue opp near Jacksonville, FL Message-ID: <000001c67c57$216f0240$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Sellam asked me to forward this message to cctalk. Reply to him, not me, at sellam at vintagetech.com. - Evan --------------------------------- Subject: Need help with large mini-computer near Jacksonville, FL I've acquired a largish mini-computer near Jacksonville, Florida, and need help moving it. I plan to ship it to California via freight, and am hoping to make the trip out to Florida so I can pack it myself, but in the meantime I may have to get it moved from its current location to somewhere nearby. Is anyone near Jacksonville that can help me with this? A pickup truck and a couple sets of strong hands is all that's required to move them. They take up roughly 30 sqft of floor space (each unit is no more than 3x3 feet from what I can tell). I may even just go ahead and rent a small storage locker until I can get out there to prep the machines for shipping. Any help will be appreciated and rewarded with some goodies. Please reply to me directly . Thanks! From evan at snarc.net Sat May 20 16:49:37 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 17:49:37 -0400 Subject: Correction -- RE: Rescue opp near Jacksonville, FL Message-ID: <000201c67c57$4a6e2810$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Not a "rescue" per se -- it's already been rescued by Sellam - he just needs help with it. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:48 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Rescue opp near Jacksonville, FL Sellam asked me to forward this message to cctalk. Reply to him, not me, at sellam at vintagetech.com. - Evan --------------------------------- Subject: Need help with large mini-computer near Jacksonville, FL I've acquired a largish mini-computer near Jacksonville, Florida, and need help moving it. I plan to ship it to California via freight, and am hoping to make the trip out to Florida so I can pack it myself, but in the meantime I may have to get it moved from its current location to somewhere nearby. Is anyone near Jacksonville that can help me with this? A pickup truck and a couple sets of strong hands is all that's required to move them. They take up roughly 30 sqft of floor space (each unit is no more than 3x3 feet from what I can tell). I may even just go ahead and rent a small storage locker until I can get out there to prep the machines for shipping. Any help will be appreciated and rewarded with some goodies. Please reply to me directly . Thanks! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 20 18:13:10 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 16:13:10 -0700 Subject: Rescue opp near Jacksonville, FL Message-ID: They take up roughly 30 sqft of floor space (each unit is no more than 3x3 feet from what I can tell). -- Nice to see someone is getting the Litton ABS Where did you hear about it? From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat May 20 18:42:34 2006 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 16:42:34 -0700 Subject: Rescue opp near Jacksonville, FL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <029801c67c67$12a0ed90$6501a8c0@NFORCE4> I'm surprised that it's not going to a museum. After receiving her original email I referred the owner to several, including the CHM, since she was looking for a tax receipt. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:13 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Rescue opp near Jacksonville, FL They take up roughly 30 sqft of floor space (each unit is no more than 3x3 feet from what I can tell). -- Nice to see someone is getting the Litton ABS Where did you hear about it? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 20 19:16:42 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 19:16:42 -0500 Subject: Archive search References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <015d01c67c6b$d698a270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It had been written.... >>> He would like some >>> volunteers to hack the python code to be more efficient or something, >>> but I don't know python. All true. > Sounds more like it needs rewriting in a more efficient language to me > (isn't Python interpreted? Probably not a good choice for search > indexing!) No, not a different language.. the entire mailman software is python based. Unfortunatley I'm not a python programmer. But I'm not about to switch packages. > I can't imagine the indexing code's *that* complicated - I expect it's the > search side and how to quickly find results in the masses of data that > tends to be the tricky part. The indexing and searching code isn't mailman anyway, so the problem has nothing to do with mailman. The indexing and searching is done by htdig. > If the dictionary is static then files can be indexed as they arrive > rather than the whole archive needing scanning every x hours to keep > indexes in sync. Some one tell the guy who wrote the mailman/htdig integration piece. A big chunk of the problem is that the complete text of all archives for both cctalk AND cctech is done every night. A rather huge task. CCtalk and CCtech will be combined at some point in the near future anyways (I know, I keep saying that, but it'll happen). Jay West From sethm at loomcom.com Sat May 20 19:18:58 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 17:18:58 -0700 Subject: OS/2 diskette image needed Message-ID: <011DF0D5-61F2-4F45-89F5-7BA3DC48DB76@loomcom.com> I've been slowly acquiring operating system media as I find it, trying to archive it where possible. Unfortunately, I've only just gotten around to trying to make backup images of my OS/2 2.1 installation diskettes. One of them is bad, and I can't get a good image from it. If anyone has this disk, and would be willing to send me an image (I've been using dd on FreeBSD to make byte-by-byte dumps), I would be very grateful! The disk I need is: IBM OS/2 2.1 Display Driver Diskette 2 61G0808 Version 2.1 (c) International Business Machines Yes, I do own the original box and disks. I just want to replace a disk that has failed. Thanks everyone, -Seth From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 20 19:34:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 19:34:48 -0500 Subject: M9312 boot prom listings References: Message-ID: <01af01c67c6e$5ddb2e90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Al wrote.... > Someone just forwareded two scans of M9312 boot prom listings. The second > one K-SP-M9312-0-7_Aug78.pdf fills in a couple of missing ones, if someone > feels like entering the data and forwarding it to Jay to add to his prom > archive. > > The listings are under dec/unibus on bitsavers. Did anyone enter this yet? I'd very much like to add the prom images to my prom archive on www.classiccmp.org. If no one has, I will try to find some time to enter it. Jay From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat May 20 20:36:37 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 18:36:37 -0700 Subject: M9312 boot prom listings In-Reply-To: <01af01c67c6e$5ddb2e90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <01af01c67c6e$5ddb2e90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <446FC425.9030601@mindspring.com> The two CPU console proms (11/34+ and 11/70+) from the first file, and all the single-prom non-network devices (ie, non-DECNET) from the second file already exist as source / listing / prom image at http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312 I'm still missing the RS11 (23-762A9) and CR11 (23-763A9) proms [ but I doubt very much anyone has either of these devices to boot from ] and the TMSCP (23-E39A9) is still MIA (I've tried coding one based upon the MSCP code, but for the life of me I can't get it to fit in the allocated space :-( ). The DECNET DDCMP proms have surfaced in the second M9312 listing, and maybe I'll get around to transcribing these from the PDF, but this is very low priority for me at this point, given the set of devices supported (DMR11, DUP11, DU11). Don North AK6DN Jay West wrote: > Al wrote.... >> Someone just forwareded two scans of M9312 boot prom listings. The >> second >> one K-SP-M9312-0-7_Aug78.pdf fills in a couple of missing ones, if >> someone >> feels like entering the data and forwarding it to Jay to add to his prom >> archive. >> >> The listings are under dec/unibus on bitsavers. > > Did anyone enter this yet? I'd very much like to add the prom images > to my prom archive on www.classiccmp.org. If no one has, I will try to > find some time to enter it. > > Jay > From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 20 21:11:37 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 21:11:37 -0500 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <015d01c67c6b$d698a270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk> <015d01c67c6b$d698a270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <446FCC59.7020804@pacbell.net> Jay West wrote: ... > A big chunk of the problem is that the complete text of all archives for > both cctalk AND cctech is done every night. A rather huge task. CCtalk > and CCtech will be combined at some point in the near future anyways (I > know, I keep saying that, but it'll happen). The thing I don't get about this is: I would imagine any rational implementation would keep the old set of indexes alone and in a usable state for searching while the new set was being generated, even if it takes 20 hours. Then, once the new indexes were finished, the new ones would be switched into play and the old ones deleted. So I don't understand why search only works between 8pm and midnight (or whatever the small window is that someone stated at the beginning of this thread). From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 20 21:30:00 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 21:30:00 -0500 Subject: Archive search References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk><015d01c67c6b$d698a270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <446FCC59.7020804@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <006a01c67c7e$76fa0c60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > The thing I don't get about this is: I would imagine any rational > implementation would keep the old set of indexes alone and in a usable > state for searching while the new set was being generated, even if it > takes 20 hours. Then, once the new indexes were finished, the new ones > would be switched into play and the old ones deleted. You would think that's the way it was done. I have not done any detailed troubleshooting on it. What I can say for sure is this... the indexing starts off somewhere around 2am ISTR. It is obvious that it is indexing both cctalk and cctech in separate runs. It runs until around 10:30pm or 11pm at night. During that time, searches for anything return a null result. If I kill off the index processes, a search for the same word does yield results. Draw your own conclusions. > So I don't understand why search only works between 8pm and midnight (or > whatever the small window is that someone stated at the beginning of this > thread). Because that's how long it takes the reindex process to run... from around 2am to around 10:30pm (CST {GMT-6}). It's a horrible design, but... soone or later I'll have to dig in to it further. Jay From cctalk at catcorner.org Sun May 21 07:39:36 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 08:39:36 -0400 Subject: Pictures from VCF East Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360CE@MEOW.catcorner.org> http://www.catcorner.org/VCFE3 Most are of my Tandy exhibit. I didn't have a lot of time to walk around. Kelly From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 21 09:34:53 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 10:34:53 -0400 Subject: International shipping question Message-ID: <200605211034.54009.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, I've got a rack of gear, which I need to ship to a guy in the Netherlands (who also happens to be a list member:). Has anyone done this before, and can you recommend any particular shipper? The only one who's actually sent me a quote back was FEDEX, which wanted $1500... which seems really high. The other ones I've filled out a quote request for didn't ever send me a quote back. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 21 11:06:11 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 12:06:11 -0400 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system Message-ID: <008001c67cf0$7b615750$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I have several random parts I'm going to pull together to build a "new" floppy system for my IMSAI. I have an SD Sales Versafloppy controller card (which used the FD1771B controller) and several 5.25" floppy drives (all soft sectored). The Versafloppy manual indicates that it will work with a Shugart SA400/450. When I look up the specs on the SA400, it indicates that the unformatted capacity is 109.6k and the formatted capacity is 81k. I didn't read the entire manual but this look like SSSD specs. I of course don't have any floppy drives like this but I have several original PC drives (TM-100 and others) and several 360k drives of various types. The question is this: can I use these later drives on this controller without problems? If there are problems, what might they be? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 21 11:49:02 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 09:49:02 -0700 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <008001c67cf0$7b615750$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: hi Richard I think the 450 is at least double sided if not double density. In any case, a 360K drive can be used as a single sided single density disk, without any issues that I know of. The 400 was a 35 track machine but you can get more tracks on the 360K drives. These are 40 tracks. I've been using some 360K drives on my H89 for years as 35 track single sided single density but also hard sectored. Does the VeriFloppy support MFM? Dwight >From: "Richard A. Cini" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts'" >Subject: Building new S100 floppy system >Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 12:06:11 -0400 > >All: > > > > I have several random parts I'm going to pull together to >build >a "new" floppy system for my IMSAI. I have an SD Sales Versafloppy >controller card (which used the FD1771B controller) and several 5.25" >floppy >drives (all soft sectored). The Versafloppy manual indicates that it will >work with a Shugart SA400/450. When I look up the specs on the SA400, it >indicates that the unformatted capacity is 109.6k and the formatted >capacity >is 81k. I didn't read the entire manual but this look like SSSD specs. > > > > I of course don't have any floppy drives like this but I have >several original PC drives (TM-100 and others) and several 360k drives of >various types. > > > > The question is this: can I use these later drives on this >controller without problems? If there are problems, what might they be? > > > >Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 21 12:14:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 10:14:27 -0700 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <008001c67cf0$7b615750$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <008001c67cf0$7b615750$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200605211014270359.42485600@10.0.0.252> Richard, the Versafloppy was a fine controller for its day. Because of the 1771, it's limited to FM, and IIRC, doesn't do DMA transfers. Originally, these things were specified on single-sided media for 35 tracks. Any 5.25" 360K floppy drive can be used, provided it furnishes a READY signal--I don't recall if the Versafloppy included a optional on-board ready circuit, but it's simple enough to derive a READY signal using a couple of one-shots if your drive doesn't support one. You can use a full 40 tracks, or, alternatively, find a 720K drive like a Teac FD55F, and use 80--the 1771 doesn't care how many tracks you're using. Now, here's where my memory begins to fail after about 25+ years. I don't recall if the Versafloppy has a head-select register or not. The 1771 has no head-select logic on it, so a bit from an external latch has to furnish the signal--it seems to me that it does, but my mind could be playing tricks. If you wanted to try your hand at MFM, you could, with only a very few board changes, use a WD 2791 (which has its own data separator and head select logic on chip) which would give you both FM and MFM. Another option might be a WD 1791, but you'd have to furnish your own data separator for MFM. I wouldn't attempt this without a fast-enough CPU, however. A 4 MHz Z80 should be fine. Hope this helps. Cheers, Chuck P.S. For whatever reason, I sold the VF to a friend and bought a Tarbell controller. Still didn't do MFM, but I liked it better for some reason that now escapes me. On 5/21/2006 at 12:06 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: >All: > > > > I have several random parts I'm going to pull together to build >a "new" floppy system for my IMSAI. I have an SD Sales Versafloppy >controller card (which used the FD1771B controller) and several 5.25" >floppy >drives (all soft sectored). The Versafloppy manual indicates that it will >work with a Shugart SA400/450. When I look up the specs on the SA400, it >indicates that the unformatted capacity is 109.6k and the formatted >capacity >is 81k. I didn't read the entire manual but this look like SSSD specs. > > > > I of course don't have any floppy drives like this but I have >several original PC drives (TM-100 and others) and several 360k drives of >various types. > > > > The question is this: can I use these later drives on this >controller without problems? If there are problems, what might they be? > > > >Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 21 12:19:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 10:19:58 -0700 Subject: Free for the taking HP/Apollo, vt100, wyse, Sun Ultra 5 In-Reply-To: <22239BB9-A379-490B-83D2-53E45FDF3450@mind-to-mind.com> References: <200605191711.k4JHBIjB027267@onyx.spiritone.com> <22239BB9-A379-490B-83D2-53E45FDF3450@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: <200605211019580035.424D61B3@10.0.0.252> On 5/20/2006 at 2:15 PM Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: >I rescued 4 HP/Apollo machines from the dumpster, 2 are PA-RISC and 2 >are 68040 machines.... I'm a big fan of the PA-RISC architecture, but without software and system experience, I think I'll have to reluctantly pass on them. Cheers, Chuck From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun May 21 13:48:00 2006 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 11:48:00 -0700 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system References: <200605211700.k4LH03So078854@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000901c67d07$1ad1d4c0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> I have a 1977 SWPTC floppy disk system that uses the FD1771 controller. It came with Shugart SA400 drives and I upgraded to TM100. The stock controller card was single sided and it worked OK, You could use an existing latch on the SWTPC card to do side select. You can also use current production 3.5 inch drives with it. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/35disk/Disk.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Subject: Building new S100 floppy system > > I have several random parts I'm going to pull together to build > a "new" floppy system for my IMSAI. I have an SD Sales Versafloppy > controller card (which used the FD1771B controller) and several 5.25" > floppy > drives (all soft sectored). The Versafloppy manual indicates that it will > work with a Shugart SA400/450. When I look up the specs on the SA400, it > indicates that the unformatted capacity is 109.6k and the formatted > capacity > is 81k. I didn't read the entire manual but this look like SSSD specs. > > I of course don't have any floppy drives like this but I have > several original PC drives (TM-100 and others) and several 360k drives of > various types. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 13:49:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 19:49:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <008001c67cf0$7b615750$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> from "Richard A. Cini" at May 21, 6 12:06:11 pm Message-ID: > > All: > > > > I have several random parts I'm going to pull together to build > a "new" floppy system for my IMSAI. I have an SD Sales Versafloppy > controller card (which used the FD1771B controller) and several 5.25" floppy > drives (all soft sectored). The Versafloppy manual indicates that it will > work with a Shugart SA400/450. When I look up the specs on the SA400, it > indicates that the unformatted capacity is 109.6k and the formatted capacity > is 81k. I didn't read the entire manual but this look like SSSD specs. The 1771 is a single density (FM) controller only. > I of course don't have any floppy drives like this but I have > several original PC drives (TM-100 and others) and several 360k drives of > various types. > > The question is this: can I use these later drives on this > controller without problems? If there are problems, what might they be? > It's almost impossible to make a drive that will handle double density but not single density. So your '360K' drives will be fine in that respect. There are likely to be 2 other differences : 1) The SA400 was, IIRC, a single-sided unit. Your 360K drives are double sided. The controller may well not support double-sided operation, and it may use the side select pin for something else (DS3 was one common use I think). You may need to do a little bit of modification in this area. 2) I think the SA400 was a 35 cylinder drive, '360K' drives are 40 cylinder. This shouldn't matter unless, for some unknown reason, the controller only sends 35 step pulses when it tries to restore to cylinder 0. AFAIK any standard use of the 1771 won't suffer from this. -tony From dundas at caltech.edu Sun May 21 14:04:47 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 12:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: M9312 boot prom listings Message-ID: <8256651412dundas@caltech.edu> Don > I'm still missing the RS11 (23-762A9) and CR11 (23-763A9) proms [ but I > doubt very much anyone has either of these devices to boot from ] and I'm very interested in the CR11 PROMs if you have or can find them anywhere. I just submitted a CR/CD simulator to the latest release of SIMH. I've tested it most ways but I have neither the boot PROMs nor the XXDP test deck. [I do have some other test deck images, though.] Thanks, John From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun May 21 14:09:13 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 12:09:13 -0700 Subject: International shipping question In-Reply-To: <200605211034.54009.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605211034.54009.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4470BAD9.6030609@msm.umr.edu> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >So, I've got a rack of gear, which I need to ship to a guy in the >Netherlands (who also happens to be a list member:). Has anyone done >this before, and can you recommend any particular shipper? > > > Patrick, My shipping of minicomputers was about 20 to 25 years ago, so whatever shipper would not matter much. I did user Fedex most of the time, as the customers were more than happy to pay to get something in one piece quickly. I would offer that as the main advise, that shipping it by surface will involve a transhipper via container, which will not be nearly as good as air freight. You an call the airlines directly for a quote, if you crate it in a way that will fit an air container. Racks usually dont ship on their sides well, so that may not be an option. Jim From jgessling at yahoo.com Sun May 21 15:14:30 2006 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 13:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: late 50's early 60's ibm doc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060521201430.37063.qmail@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greetings. I purchased a couple weeks ago a metal box full of unit record docs, forms and cards ($20). Including Ramac 305 guide and manuals for various collating, punching, as well as some training manuals. I'd be happy to have it go to a good home. I've got a spreadsheet with more details I can send on request. The box full is very heavy so I would a pickup in the San Francisco Bay area. Thanks, Jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aw288 at osfn.org Sun May 21 15:23:40 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 16:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: late 50's early 60's ibm doc In-Reply-To: <20060521201430.37063.qmail@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I purchased a couple weeks ago a metal box full of > unit record docs, forms and cards ($20). Including > Ramac 305 guide and manuals for various collating, > punching, as well as some training manuals. I'd be > happy to have it go to a good home. I've got a > spreadsheet with more details I can send on request. > The box full is very heavy so I would a pickup in the > San Francisco Bay area. Some of it may not be on bitsavers, so that would be the natural home for them. If they go on Ebay, they will probably never see the light of day ever again (gee, I wonder where they would go?). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun May 21 15:54:14 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 13:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: late 50's early 60's ibm doc In-Reply-To: <20060521201430.37063.qmail@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060521205414.25073.qmail@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- James Gessling wrote: > I purchased a couple weeks ago a metal box full of > unit record docs, forms and cards ($20). Including > Ramac 305 guide and manuals for various collating, > punching, as well as some training manuals. I'd be > happy to have it go to a good home. I've got a > spreadsheet with more details I can send on request. > > The box full is very heavy so I would a pickup in > the > San Francisco Bay area. Hi, James. I would be interested in this. I am located in Cupertino. Best regards, William Maddox (408) 255-0356 From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 21 16:09:44 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 17:09:44 -0400 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008b01c67d1a$e27c3390$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Dwight, Chuck, Mike, Tony: All of this has been very helpful. Thanks a lot. I would think that since the 1771 is an FM controller I won't be able to go cross-platform (i.e., using a PC) to create or image diskettes. If this is true, then is there a "better" S100 floppy controller I should hunt for? Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:50 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Building new S100 floppy system > > All: > > > > I have several random parts I'm going to pull together to build > a "new" floppy system for my IMSAI. I have an SD Sales Versafloppy > controller card (which used the FD1771B controller) and several 5.25" floppy > drives (all soft sectored). The Versafloppy manual indicates that it will > work with a Shugart SA400/450. When I look up the specs on the SA400, it > indicates that the unformatted capacity is 109.6k and the formatted capacity > is 81k. I didn't read the entire manual but this look like SSSD specs. The 1771 is a single density (FM) controller only. > I of course don't have any floppy drives like this but I have > several original PC drives (TM-100 and others) and several 360k drives of > various types. > > The question is this: can I use these later drives on this > controller without problems? If there are problems, what might they be? > It's almost impossible to make a drive that will handle double density but not single density. So your '360K' drives will be fine in that respect. There are likely to be 2 other differences : 1) The SA400 was, IIRC, a single-sided unit. Your 360K drives are double sided. The controller may well not support double-sided operation, and it may use the side select pin for something else (DS3 was one common use I think). You may need to do a little bit of modification in this area. 2) I think the SA400 was a 35 cylinder drive, '360K' drives are 40 cylinder. This shouldn't matter unless, for some unknown reason, the controller only sends 35 step pulses when it tries to restore to cylinder 0. AFAIK any standard use of the 1771 won't suffer from this. -tony From Tim at Rikers.org Sun May 21 16:15:39 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 15:15:39 -0600 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <006a01c67c7e$76fa0c60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk><015d01c67c6b$d698a270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <446FCC59.7020804@pacbell.net> <006a01c67c7e$76fa0c60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4470D87B.3010504@Rikers.org> Jay, htDig can be setup to run that way. I'd be happy to fix it up for ya. preferred username: timr ssh2 dsa key: http://rikers.org/id_dsa.pub -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Tim at Rikers.org Sun May 21 16:18:23 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 15:18:23 -0600 Subject: hp 264x terms on ebay In-Reply-To: <044AD6D2-C5CD-4D54-A5FD-33C68D903940@colourfull.com> References: <20060518230109.73043.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <044AD6D2-C5CD-4D54-A5FD-33C68D903940@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4470D91F.3080209@Rikers.org> It could be worse: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8813054117 -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 21 16:41:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 14:41:00 -0700 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <008b01c67d1a$e27c3390$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <008b01c67d1a$e27c3390$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200605211441000957.433C60FE@10.0.0.252> On 5/21/2006 at 5:09 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > I would think that since the 1771 is an FM controller I won't be >able to go cross-platform (i.e., using a PC) to create or image diskettes. >If this is true, then is there a "better" S100 floppy controller I should >hunt for? Not necessarily--try out the testsd.exe utility on your PC at: www.sydex.com/download/testsd.exe It'll tell you very quickly if your PC can write FM diskettes. If you've got several machines to try, just make a 3.5" DOS boot floppy with testsd.exe on it. Testsd uses the last couple of cylinders on the diskette, so you have a quick "boot and test" solution. My experience tells me that later (post 1999) PCs generally have a better probability of supporting FM than earlier ones. Go figure. But if you want to write MFM, you can either modify the board you have or glom onto something like one of the CompuPro controller boards. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 21 16:48:20 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 14:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <200605211441000957.433C60FE@10.0.0.252> References: <008b01c67d1a$e27c3390$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <200605211441000957.433C60FE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060521144617.R32748@shell.lmi.net> If the system gives you any choices for disk format parameters,... The most common 5.25" SSSD format is that of the Osborn. 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun May 21 17:28:07 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 15:28:07 -0700 Subject: hp 264x terms on ebay In-Reply-To: <4470D91F.3080209@Rikers.org> References: <20060518230109.73043.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <044AD6D2-C5CD-4D54-A5FD-33C68D903940@colourfull.com> <4470D91F.3080209@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <4470E977.4080809@msm.umr.edu> Tim Riker wrote: >It could be worse: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8813054117 > > all the items this guy has listed look to be from some sort of catalog, maybe HP? he has over 4000 items listed for silly amounts. He must have some customers who will pay any amount for the parts he has listed, or this whole "store" would be a waste of money for the guy. He could have inserted the listings with no photos and saved a couple of cents, since all the photos are of the store logo. he could have put in a link in his description and served up the photo himself for less. BTW my favorite was the $300 or so 720K floppy drive. Jim From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun May 21 17:35:37 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 18:35:37 -0400 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <20060521144617.R32748@shell.lmi.net> References: <008b01c67d1a$e27c3390$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <200605211441000957.433C60FE@10.0.0.252> <20060521144617.R32748@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200605211835.37543.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 21 May 2006 05:48 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: > If the system gives you any choices for disk format parameters,... > > The most common 5.25" SSSD format is that of the Osborn. > 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector. I don't recall the SPT offhand, but the Osbornes used 1024-byte sectors. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 21 17:57:06 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 15:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <200605211835.37543.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <008b01c67d1a$e27c3390$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <200605211441000957.433C60FE@10.0.0.252> <20060521144617.R32748@shell.lmi.net> <200605211835.37543.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060521155523.D32748@shell.lmi.net> > > The most common 5.25" SSSD format is that of the Osborn. > > 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector. > On Sun, 21 May 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I don't recall the SPT offhand, but the Osbornes used 1024-byte sectors. The Osborne SD was 10 SPT, with 256 bytes per sector. The Osborne DD was 5 SPT, with 1024 bytes per sector. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 21 18:51:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 16:51:48 -0700 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <20060521155523.D32748@shell.lmi.net> References: <008b01c67d1a$e27c3390$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <200605211441000957.433C60FE@10.0.0.252> <20060521144617.R32748@shell.lmi.net> <200605211835.37543.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060521155523.D32748@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200605211651480809.43B41E17@10.0.0.252> On 5/21/2006 at 3:57 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >The Osborne SD was 10 SPT, with 256 bytes per sector. ...and, for single-density 5.25" media, that's about as good as it gets. 256 bytes per sector means that you'll have to transfer a sector and deblock on read or block on write. Perhaps the TRS-80 Mod I Omikron CP/M with 18 128-byte sectors might be easier to program--a similar format was used by the Xerox 820 for 5.25" media. FWIW, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 21 21:46:30 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:46:30 -0500 Subject: International shipping question References: <200605211034.54009.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4470BAD9.6030609@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <008001c67d49$eea80070$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... > You an call the airlines directly for a quote, if you crate it in a way > that will > fit an air container. Racks usually dont ship on their sides well, so > that > may not be an option. Unless it's changed from about 8 or 10 years ago... most of the HP9000's I sold were shipped air the standard 6 foot rack fit fine upright in air cargo. The optional tall racks (72 inches) did not. $1500 to ship a six foot rack to netherlands? You're getting a deal. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 21 21:54:16 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:54:16 -0500 Subject: International shipping question References: <200605211034.54009.pat@computer-refuge.org><4470BAD9.6030609@msm.umr.edu> <008001c67d49$eea80070$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00a201c67d4b$03b74740$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > sold were shipped air the standard 6 foot rack fit fine upright in air > cargo. The optional tall racks (72 inches) did not. Obviously I've got to go back and see exactly how tall the optional taller racks were ;) Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 21 21:56:54 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 22:56:54 -0400 Subject: International shipping question In-Reply-To: <008001c67d49$eea80070$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200605211034.54009.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4470BAD9.6030609@msm.umr.edu> <008001c67d49$eea80070$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200605212256.54321.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 21 May 2006 22:46, Jay West wrote: > It was written.... > > > You an call the airlines directly for a quote, if you crate it in a > > way that will > > fit an air container. Racks usually dont ship on their sides well, > > so that > > may not be an option. > > Unless it's changed from about 8 or 10 years ago... most of the > HP9000's I sold were shipped air the standard 6 foot rack fit fine > upright in air cargo. The optional tall racks (72 inches) did not. > > $1500 to ship a six foot rack to netherlands? You're getting a deal. The guy I'm sending them to isn't hoping to get them quickly - he'd be happy to get them in a few months via a cargo ship. I don't think he wants to pay for air freight on them. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun May 21 22:19:14 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 23:19:14 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova Trip Message-ID: <179909AE-4934-40B4-AE0C-E56EAF794F8A@colourfull.com> Just got back from my Data General Nova rescue. Thought I would share some pics for anyone interested. Got the units from New York, had to take them back through Canada (what a pain), back to good ole Michigan. Rob http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/PhotoAlbum2.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 21 22:29:56 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 22:29:56 -0500 Subject: Data General Nova Trip References: <179909AE-4934-40B4-AE0C-E56EAF794F8A@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <010601c67d4f$ffaeec20$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Robert wrote.... > Just got back from my Data General Nova rescue. Thought I would share > some pics for anyone interested. Got the units from New York, had to > take them back through Canada (what a pain), back to good ole Michigan. Very nice pics, and very nice systems!! I'm supposed to be picking up my 3rd DG Eclipse system in a few weeks. When I get around to refurbishing them, I'd be VERY interested in borrowing some of your docs :) Jay From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun May 21 22:35:15 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 23:35:15 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova Trip In-Reply-To: <010601c67d4f$ffaeec20$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <179909AE-4934-40B4-AE0C-E56EAF794F8A@colourfull.com> <010601c67d4f$ffaeec20$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Sounds cool. I wouldn't mind sharing. Maybe we could start doing a scan job for bitsavers. They also came with Microfiche sets. Rob On May 21, 2006, at 11:29 PM, Jay West wrote: > Robert wrote.... >> Just got back from my Data General Nova rescue. Thought I would >> share some pics for anyone interested. Got the units from New >> York, had to take them back through Canada (what a pain), back to >> good ole Michigan. > Very nice pics, and very nice systems!! > > I'm supposed to be picking up my 3rd DG Eclipse system in a few > weeks. When I get around to refurbishing them, I'd be VERY > interested in borrowing some of your docs :) > > Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 23:17:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:17:16 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova Trip In-Reply-To: <179909AE-4934-40B4-AE0C-E56EAF794F8A@colourfull.com> References: <179909AE-4934-40B4-AE0C-E56EAF794F8A@colourfull.com> Message-ID: At 11:19 PM -0400 5/21/06, Robert Borsuk wrote: >Just got back from my Data General Nova rescue. Thought I would >share some pics for anyone interested. Got the units from New York, >had to take them back through Canada (what a pain), back to good ole >Michigan. > >Rob > >http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/PhotoAlbum2.html Wow, DG is not my cup of tea, but those are some beautiful systems. Very nice looking! Is that the standard setup for a Nova 4? How interesting did customs make things travelling through Canada to get home? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun May 21 23:19:35 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 00:19:35 -0400 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <20060521155523.D32748@shell.lmi.net> References: <008b01c67d1a$e27c3390$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <200605211835.37543.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060521155523.D32748@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200605220019.35082.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 21 May 2006 06:57 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The most common 5.25" SSSD format is that of the Osborn. > > > 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector. > > On Sun, 21 May 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I don't recall the SPT offhand, but the Osbornes used 1024-byte sectors. > > The Osborne SD was 10 SPT, with 256 bytes per sector. > The Osborne DD was 5 SPT, with 1024 bytes per sector. That may be the source of the confusion, I saw a fair number of those machines, since we had our shop in a building where the landlord was an Osborne dealer, but I almost never saw a SD machine. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 21 23:35:59 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:35:59 +1200 Subject: Data General Nova Trip In-Reply-To: References: <179909AE-4934-40B4-AE0C-E56EAF794F8A@colourfull.com> Message-ID: On 5/22/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Wow, DG is not my cup of tea, but those are some beautiful systems. Indeed... I have a Nova at home (got it from the original owner, a machine shop North of town, but absolutely no docs or software). They have a distinctive look, but I have pretty much no idea how to use them. > How interesting did customs make things travelling through Canada to get home? I had no problems bringing a PDP-8 back to Ohio from Canada - but I think it helps that it does say "Digital Equipment Corporation/Maynard, Massachusetts" on the front (proof that it's US goods returning to the US). -ethan From vax at purdue.edu Thu May 4 19:54:28 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 00:54:28 -0000 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605042049.24965.vax@purdue.edu> On Thursday 04 May 2006 20:02, Richard wrote: > In article > <1514.86.138.231.62.1146787022.squirrel at webmail.geekdot.com>, > > "Lee Davison" writes: > > > How many of the companies mentioned there still exist? Some, but > > > none of the ones mentioned still make terminals... > > > > Another company that doesn't make terminals anymore is Matrox. Not > > much on their terminals on the web either. > > See, I didn't even know that Matrox ever made a terminal :-). > > This is the same Matrox that makes PCI video cards in Dorvall, And the same that made a QBUS framebuffer that I found in a Plessy-badged LSI-11/73 system. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue May 9 17:06:42 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF East 3.0 This Weekend! Message-ID: ---------------------------------------------------- Vintage Computer Festival East 3.0 Saturday, May 13, 10am to 6pm InfoAge Learning Center, Wall Township, New Jersey http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/ ---------------------------------------------------- The 3rd annual Vintage Computer Festival East is happening THIS WEEKEND! Come and join us to celebrate the history of the machines, stories and people of the computer revolution. VCF East 3.0 is a one-day event taking place on Saturday, May 13th, from 9:30am until 6pm at the InfoAge Learning Center in Wall Township, New Jersey. The VCF features an excellent line-up of speakers, a fantastic exhibition of vintage computers, and a marketplace where you can find that one item you're looking for to get that old machine running again! /// VCF East 3.0 Speaker Schedule Time Speaker Topic -------- ------------------- --------------------------------------- 10:30 AM Steve Lukasik ARPA in the 1970s 12:00 PM Sellam Ismail VCF Ramblings 1:45 PM Sol Libes The Origins of Personal Computers 3:30 PM David Ahl The Total Idiocy of Starting a Magazine 5:00 PM Ray Holt An Early Microprocessor Before Intel For more information on our speakers including talk abstracts and bios please visit: http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/speaker.php /// InfoAge Learning Center Tours Tours of the InfoAge Learning Center (the host of VCF East 3.0) are being held throughout the day concurrently with the VCF. For more information, please visit: http://www.infoage.org/ For more information on VCF East 3.0 including admission, directions, etc., please visit the VCF East 3.0 website: http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/ I'll be there! Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival NOTE: Please do not reply to this message or else it will not be received! Send all replies to . From sgarciam2 at yahoo.com Tue May 16 13:58:25 2006 From: sgarciam2 at yahoo.com (Samuel Garcia Marquez) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REMEX TAPE READER MANUAL Message-ID: <20060516185825.90742.qmail@web35808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> DO YOU HAVE A COPY THAT YOU CAN SEND ME THANK YOU SAMUEL GARCIA sgarciiam2 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2?/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu May 18 14:42:45 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need help with large mini-computer near Jacksonville, FL Message-ID: I've acquired a largish mini-computer near Jacksonville, Florida, and need help moving it. I plan to ship it to California via freight, and am hoping to make the trip out to Florida so I can pack it myself, but in the meantime I may have to get it moved from its current location to somewhere nearby. Is anyone near Jacksonville that can help me with this? A pickup truck and a couple sets of strong hands is all that's required to move them. They take up roughly 30 sqft of floor space (each unit is no more than 3x3 feet from what I can tell). I may even just go ahead and rent a small storage locker until I can get out there to prep the machines for shipping. Any help will be appreciated and rewarded with some goodies. Please reply to me directly . Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From adamg at pobox.com Thu May 4 18:41:05 2006 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 23:41:05 -0000 Subject: more terminal server mumbo-jumbo Message-ID: <20060504233619.GA46360@silme.pair.com> Just a note that, contrary to my message the other day, a serial-port-equipped Shiva LanRover *can* be connected to terminals, not just modems. Not sure how much else I got wrong... -- Adam From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 11 19:08:21 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 20:08:21 -0400 Subject: wd1003 floppy ports Message-ID: <0IZ400H79LL592B2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: wd1003 floppy ports > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 23:04:18 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 5/9/2006 at 8:06 PM dwight elvey wrote:>Hi > >>I want to know what the WD1003WA2 does with the 3F7 port. >>Most controllers use this port to control clock speeds. On the >>WD1003WA2, there is a jumper that is stated to be used to select >>360 RPM drives or 300 RPM drives. I'm trying to determine if >>the controller will do FM. One many older controllers that do support >>FM, the clock rate is set by sending 3 to port 3F7. Does 3F7 do >>anything on the WD1003WA2? If so, what. > >Well, my spec sheet for the WA2 says that it uses a 765 with a 16C92 >support device and supports data rates of 500, 300, 250 and 125 Kbps. If >this is anything like the standard AT controller, then setting port 3F7 to >3 will enable the 125 Kbps clock. Does it support FM? The spec sheet >doesn't say. As far as the jumper goes, IIRC, it's used to denote a >dual-speed (360 high-density, 300 low-denisty) 1.2MB drive. > >However, one of the later AT controllers, like the 1003WA4, the 1003RA2 or >the 1006 series uses the 37C65 controller which definitely supports FM >encoding. > >Cheers, >Chuck > The short answer is yes. The longer answer is you have to program the correct clock and tell the FDC to do FM not MFM (cammand bit). Also you have to specify (the command) HLT, LUT and STEP times as needed. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 13 18:19:26 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 19:19:26 -0400 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels Message-ID: <0IZ8004K88MVSXS5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: BA11-K low AC output levels > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 21:22:26 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> What the problem with the machine, at least I believe, is, is that the >> memory is not getting any power. >> >> The light on the H745 is not coming on. I'm trying to figure out why. > >OK, let's start there. Make sure the bulb isn't blown. It happens, all >too often. > >Then check the AC input to that brick. Connect an AC voltmeter between >the 2 wires that come from the transformer (the ones labelled '20-30V >AC'. What do you read there? > >Then connect a DC voltmeter between the 0V connection (or system ground) >and each of the output terminals in turn. What voltages do you read there? > >-tony Note there is an internal fuse! Allison From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 17 01:55:16 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:55:16 +0100 Subject: DECnet network at VCF Midwest 2.0? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <012701c6797e$ddfbe170$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Can a VAXstation 4000/60 or /90 be swapped in for a /VLC without > requiring any changes to the OS (network config)? If so, depending > on the weather (we're in a heat wave right now), I could probably get > my segment back up and running. If it is cool enough, that could > include my PDP-11/73 (most likely running RSTS/E V10.1). Assuming you are running OpenVMS and have not tailored anything off the system disk, then you should be able to swap a disk from one machine to another with no problems. Note that the network interface name may change (I know that on a VS4000-90 the interface is EZA0: and I think that a -60 is the same but I don't recall what the VLC uses). So you may have to do a small amount of network configuration. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 21 14:27:41 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 15:27:41 -0400 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system Message-ID: <0IZM0078WRCYWEW2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Building new S100 floppy system > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 19:49:55 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> All: >> >> >> >> I have several random parts I'm going to pull together to build >> a "new" floppy system for my IMSAI. I have an SD Sales Versafloppy >> controller card (which used the FD1771B controller) and several 5.25" floppy >> drives (all soft sectored). The Versafloppy manual indicates that it will >> work with a Shugart SA400/450. When I look up the specs on the SA400, it >> indicates that the unformatted capacity is 109.6k and the formatted capacity >> is 81k. I didn't read the entire manual but this look like SSSD specs. Correct. > >The 1771 is a single density (FM) controller only. Also correct. >> I of course don't have any floppy drives like this but I have >> several original PC drives (TM-100 and others) and several 360k drives of >> various types. >> >> The question is this: can I use these later drives on this >> controller without problems? If there are problems, what might they be? Yes without problems. No you will only get around half the storage (180k). >It's almost impossible to make a drive that will handle double density >but not single density. So your '360K' drives will be fine in that >respect. Correct. >There are likely to be 2 other differences : > >1) The SA400 was, IIRC, a single-sided unit. Your 360K drives are double >sided. The controller may well not support double-sided operation, and it >may use the side select pin for something else (DS3 was one common use I >think). You may need to do a little bit of modification in this area. Incorrect. The SA450 is a two sided drive and the versafloppy manual mentions the 450. >2) I think the SA400 was a 35 cylinder drive, '360K' drives are 40 >cylinder. This shouldn't matter unless, for some unknown reason, the >controller only sends 35 step pulses when it tries to restore to cylinder >0. AFAIK any standard use of the 1771 won't suffer from this. Incorrect, 1771 recal worked with 77track 8" drives. The controller doesn't know or care. The software supplied with the versafloppy might have to be tweeked for 40 (or even 80) cylinders. thats a minor change. Overall with any effort a double density controller would be easy enough to find or build and would offer a more workable amount of storage. Allison From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Mon May 22 00:08:00 2006 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 07:08:00 +0200 Subject: late 50's early 60's ibm doc Message-ID: Hi Jim, > Greetings. >I purchased a couple weeks ago a metal box full of >unit record docs, forms and cards ($20). Including >Ramac 305 guide and manuals for various collating, >punching, as well as some training manuals. I'd be >happy to have it go to a good home. I've got a >spreadsheet with more details I can send on request. >The box full is very heavy so I would a pickup in the >San Francisco Bay area. >. >Thanks, Jim Bitsavers.org would very good home for these IBM manuals. Regards Henk IBM collector From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 2 12:21:33 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 17:21:33 -0000 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <4456A852.90A07DD1@rain.org> Message-ID: <20060502171639.84757.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> > January 1979: Tim Paterson of Seattle Computer > Products begins work on a plug-in > 8086 processor card to bring the power of the 8086 > to the S-100 bus. so did this very card get incorporated into the box that became knows as the Seattle Gazelle? There's information on the net that states he wrote DOS on the Gazelle (often of dubious value...in case you weren't aware ;). > IBM visits Microsoft, asking > if Microsoft can write a ROM-based BASIC for the > computer IBM is develop9ing. Just how much use was made of IBMs ROM BASIC (or BASICs for that matter - they were included in all the PS/2s, and probably even later models. Yeah, schools and stuph made use of built in BASICs, and even utilized cassettes for storage (I learned, though I use the term loosely, BASIC programming on the Atari 400, which sported a membrane keyboard...ugh). But I'm not aware of too many early IBM branded PCs made their way into schools (more so possibly by the PS/2 period). But who the heck made any serious use of ROM based BASIC in the *pseudo* 16 bit era and beyond? > September 1980: IBM asks Microsoft to provide COBOL, > FORTRAN and PAscal for > their personal computer. Microsoft suggests to IBM > that an operating system > would be necessary to develop the additional > lnaguages. Though IBM utilized MS to write early compilers for it's stuph, IBM's Professional FORTRAN was written by Ryan-McFarland. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gmatthew at gmail.com Tue May 2 13:23:22 2006 From: gmatthew at gmail.com (Matt S.) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 18:23:22 -0000 Subject: I'm responding to your request for a ADDS console 580 Message-ID: I'm responding to your request for a ADDS console 580. There is one in the trash across the street and it doesn't look like it's in very good shape but I thought that I'd give you a buzz. Let me know if you want me to pull it out of the trash! There are a bunch of 5440 magnetic data storage 12 or 14" containers too. Matt Request for information on display terminals (third party request) *John Lawson* jpl15 at panix.com *Tue May 25 20:11:09 CDT 2004* - Previous message: Request for information on display terminals (third party request) - Next message: Request for information on display terminals (third party request) - *Messages sorted by:* [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------ >**>* The first one is the ADDS Console 580 (ADDS stands for Applied Digital Data* ^^^^^^^ I b'lieve that's actually "Consul" - as in consular.... See a nit - pick a nit - ;} Cheers John PS: I had one: big, heavy beast - I think Hans glommed on to it...? don't remember... From dsl289031 at vip.cybercity.dk Tue May 2 17:33:47 2006 From: dsl289031 at vip.cybercity.dk (arne graff) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 22:33:47 -0000 Subject: atari printers Message-ID: <000601c66e37$ccab41b0$0202a8c0@arneslaptop> Looking for a small plotter I was directed to one of your sites. Do you know anywhere I could get hold of a Tandy CGP-115 new or used? Regards Arne Graff From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 2 20:33:34 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 01:33:34 -0000 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance Message-ID: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> well weve all seen how dusty the insides of computers get. I had been using a shop vac to blow out the crud, but its awkward and doesnt pack the same umph. So I picked up an oldie at a flea market. The motor is shot (easily replaceable) but before bolting a new one on, should I perform any maintenance? No obvious place to oil it. Pops or farts when I rotate the pulley by hand - is this a favorable sign of its condition? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From benb at ioline.com Thu May 4 16:19:11 2006 From: benb at ioline.com (Ben Benson) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 21:19:11 -0000 Subject: HP 547A? Message-ID: <7146B5436FA40445A77A348175385CA44EE8E7@exchange> http://www.testequipmentconnection.com/template-asp.asp?model=547A or google it From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 8 16:32:43 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 14:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Professional Graphics Adapter Message-ID: <20060508213243.55613.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> I just received the first part of a shipment which includes an IBM 5175 monitor. The PGA card and possibly the AT box it resides in is on it's way. I plugged the monitor into my Vermont Microsystems card (essentially a PGA clone), and it worked like a charm. Have yet to plug the monitor into a VGA card and investigate that noise (the PGA card possibly has some funky syncing scheme, like combined sync or sync-on-green). But regardless, I'm desirous of docs for these babies, technical or otherwise. Programming infor-mation is of the utmost importance. Can anyone help? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From everett at kaser.com Tue May 9 20:09:03 2006 From: everett at kaser.com (Everett Kaser) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 18:09:03 -0700 Subject: HP and clear plastic cases Message-ID: <561512483.20060509180903@kaser.com> I spotted this message on cctech several months ago, and tried to join the group then, but never heard back. Suddenly today, I received my "welcome" message. Takes a while, I guess. :-))) Anway, back in 2003, folks were talking about an HP-85 with a clear plastic case that was for sale. Joe rigdonj at cfl.rr.com wrote... > No it's a prototype. HP made clear models to test air flow (and heat > dissapation), parts clearance, etc. That is absolutely correct. They almost always molded 25 to 100 case parts in clear plastic, primarily for checking how everything fit. (All of this is from the point of view of the Corvallis OR division, which made the calculators and the Series 80 machines, as that's where I worked.) I've still got a clear cases on my HP-41, my HP-85A, and my HP-87 (although, unfortunately, the CRT has gone black on the HP-87 :-(. >My guess is that HP made fewer than 10 of these HP-85s in a clear case. > I don't think so. I've only heard or seen of ONE clear unit os any model > so AFIK HP only built one of each. I'm sure that they molded at least 50, and possibly 100 sets of top and bottom cases in clear plastic for the HP-85 and HP-87 (top case only for the HP-87, since the bottom case was the same as the HP-85). (The number 50 sticks in my mind the most firmly, but it could have been as high as 100.) In fact, if there had only been 10 or less made, there's no way in h*ll that I would have been able to snatch a set! :-) Anyway, it's a little late, but I thought I'd clarify the historical record in case anyone cared. Everett ====================================================================== Everett Kaser Software Logic & Puzzle Games for PCs PO Box 403 Albany OR 97321-0117 Phone: 541-928-5259 8am-8pm PACIFIC TIME USA http://www.kaser.com ====================================================================== From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 11 18:08:19 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 16:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Junk In-Reply-To: <4463BA8E.8090504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060511230819.12594.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> lol --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > RS600? Do you mean RS/6000? Or TRS-80 Model 6000? > > If so, it couldn't hurt to find out what kind. > > Peace... Sridhar > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 11 18:11:41 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 16:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang Video Controller Diagnostics Utility Disk In-Reply-To: <44457073.874AC419@rain.org> Message-ID: <20060511231141.70679.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> that sounds kind of late for the Wang thing I'm about to acquire (pseudo-compatible), but I'd like a copy regardless. Much appreciated. --- Marvin Johnston wrote: > > Among things I am finding is the following: > > PC 200/300 MEGA/MDA > Video Controoler Diag. > Utility Disk > Rev. 2850 704-5133 > (C) 1988, Wang Labs., Inc. > > The files on the disk are: > > . 07-18-05 3:16p . > .. 07-18-05 3:16p .. > DIAGUTIL EXE 35,688 05-04-88 12:37a > DIAGUTIL.EXE > DIAGUTIL MSG 3,197 05-04-88 12:03a > DIAGUTIL.MSG > EGAVIDEO EXE 13,262 05-06-88 3:51p > EGAVIDEO.EXE > EGAVIDEO WDM 14,977 05-06-88 3:41p > EGAVIDEO.WDM > EXECDIAG EXE 753 05-04-88 12:39a > EXECDIAG.EXE > HIRES COM 2,944 07-01-87 3:27p > HIRES.COM > IBMBIO COM 22,486 05-04-88 12:39a > IBMBIO.COM > IBMDOS COM 30,128 07-24-87 12:00a > IBMDOS.COM > WEGA EXE 25,728 01-22-87 11:42a WEGA.EXE > 9 file(s) 149,163 bytes > 2 dir(s) 21,699.92 MB free > > > If anyone needs a copy of the disk contents, let me > know and I'll email a copy > of the contents in zip format (runs about 76K.) > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 11 18:28:38 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 16:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now on to sum Indigo 2 questions was Re: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060511232838.42054.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> I've been successful in actually obtaining IRIX 6.5.?, being that the gov't took the liberty of wiping the hard drives clean. Each comes with at least a whopping 2 gig hard drive, some actually have 2 of these. Egads. I can't imagine this level of storage being very useful, being that the 6.5.? distribution resides on 18 compact disks, but what do I know. But I obtained these bizzarish 9.1 gig SCSI hard drives at a computer show. They were destined for use in some Unisys box, and are encapsulated in a plastic cartridge/caddy thing. I'm guessing the interface is SCA, although it differs from the plug that accepts the drive sled in my Indigo 2's (they won't fit, I tried). I guess I should have secured the part numbers of the drive at least (Fujitsu), and I'll do that in a follow up posting. I'd like to use them in these things, and in fact have no other good use for SCSI drives these days. Possibly a vintage Mac...the newer ones, like the G3 Imac I obtained at the same show, use IDE's IINM. I read somewhere that these SGI boxes can use ANY? SCSI drive, provided they're not HDV. If indeed this is true, is it also true for the Indy's, being I got 2 of those in the same acquistion. I guess I should summarize what it is I want to know. Is there a way of adapting these drives for use in the I2's, and what is it I'll need. I am not adverse to sawing, filing, etc. if need be to adapt the original SGI drive sleds to accept these things. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 11 19:36:32 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: <69900177.20060512011228@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <20060512003632.24622.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> some good sites for info on the SGI stuph would be: siliconbunny.com obsolyte.com - kewell dude, gave me an IBM System/23 Datamaster phor phree! http://vintagecomputers.info/sgi.html - if you google "Ian Mapleson" you'll find a course by this guy on YEWNIKS administration. Some of these SGI goorews are pretty sick... Gerhard's site looks exceptionally interesting too, haven't been there before. Of course, I have to be the one to issue the link though, jeez: http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 11 19:44:28 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: desirous of acquiring a Sun 3/140 Message-ID: <20060512004428.46736.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Maybe some other early Sun stuph too. Please respond offlist. Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gginben at cebridge.net Fri May 12 14:44:50 2006 From: gginben at cebridge.net (Gessman Business Services) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:44:50 -0500 Subject: HP 264x terminal deal Message-ID: <4464E5B2.3060005@cebridge.net> Just wanted you to know that I am the one on ebay with all the old vintage terminals, and keyboards thermal printers, Misc Keyboards, etc. I seen that you were asking about the update so I was just letting you know personally that I am probably fixing to list them for cheaper on ebay, and not go through all the checking and testing. Its just taking up to much of my time, and storage space. Maybe I need to have a garage sale....lol. Now In the auction if it says that its been checked its been checked on what it says. If your interested or have any questions please, just send me an email or offer. Thanks, Greg (Gessman Business Services) *Friday, May 12, 2006, 2:20:43 PM* From bryan at museresearch.com Sat May 13 12:41:01 2006 From: bryan at museresearch.com (Bryan Lanser) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:41:01 -0700 Subject: Shure AMS8000 mixer. Message-ID: <0B15ADA3-301E-4E4F-A60B-777703E78EB7@museresearch.com> Actually, I don't think that it is suspicious at all. If you search for AMS8000 on Yahoo, you come up with this thread. There are a lot of these mixers out there and a lot of missing manuals! I too am looking for tech information on the AMS8000 as I just bought one at a flea market! B From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sat May 13 20:45:05 2006 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 20:45:05 -0500 Subject: I want to sell my 11/24, anyone interested? Message-ID: I have too many projects (including my 8/A and 11/23+) and not enough time, and don't want to keep my 11/24 sitting until the mice build nests in it. It seems to be alive (comes up to ODT on the console port) but I haven't tested it otherwise. I posted the card list several months ago on cctalk but to save you looking it up, here it is again: 1 M7133 KDF11-UA 11/24 CPU with line clock and 2 SLU 1 M7134 KT-24 Unibus map, extension to 22 bits 1 M8743 (ECC RAM, either 512 Kb or 1 Mbyte) 2 M8722 (ECC Memory either 128 Kb or 256 Kb each) 1 M8188 FPF11 floating point processor 1 M7762 RL11 disk controller RL01/02 1 M7258 LP11 printer controller 1 DSD A2130-6 disk controller? 4 M7819 DZ11-A eight RS232 ports each 1 M920 Unibus connector 1 M7297 RH11 MASSBUS Parity Control 1 M7296 RH11 MASSBUS Control & Status Registers 1 M7295 RH11A MASSBUS Bus Controller 1 M7294 RH11 MASSBUS Data Buffer and Control 3 M5904 RH11 MASSBUS Control Transceivers 1 M9300 Unibus terminator 1 M9312 Bootstrap Terminator Looking for a good home, please make a reasonable offer. Will be going on that auction place next. Shipping may be expensive (that chassis/power supply is *heavy*). Can email a pic. I'm in south central Missouri, zip 65775, if you know what it weighs and want to estimate shipping. thanks Charles From glen at mmlaw.net.au Wed May 17 00:08:04 2006 From: glen at mmlaw.net.au (Glen Mylne) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:08:04 +1000 Subject: FACIT 4070 Message-ID: <061738414126C048BFA7303288E5ABB834510B@server.McCallumMylne.com.au> I understand that you have a Facit 4070 for sale or adoption. Could you please advise further? Cheers, Glen Mylne LLB(Hons) Principal Mylne Lawyers Level 2 Corporate Offices Chevron Renaissance 3240 Surfers Paradise Boulevard SURFERS PARADISE 4217 Tel: (07) 5526-2622 Fax: (07) 5526-2292 Mob: 0408-388-234 __________________________________________ NOTICE: The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Mylne Lawyers. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. __________________________________________ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 21 14:08:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 12:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Building new S100 floppy system Message-ID: <20060521190809.9833.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> AFAICG the 1770 is a double sided controller chip, being that its used in the RE Robot brain-board. Purchance is it pin compatible with the dopier LOL 1771? --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > All: > > > > > > > > I have several random parts I'm going to pull together to build > > a "new" floppy system for my IMSAI. I have an SD Sales Versafloppy > > controller card (which used the FD1771B controller) and several 5.25" floppy > > drives (all soft sectored). The Versafloppy manual indicates that it will > > work with a Shugart SA400/450. When I look up the specs on the SA400, it > > indicates that the unformatted capacity is 109.6k and the formatted capacity > > is 81k. I didn't read the entire manual but this look like SSSD specs. > > The 1771 is a single density (FM) controller only. > > > I of course don't have any floppy drives like this but I have > > several original PC drives (TM-100 and others) and several 360k drives of > > various types. > > > > The question is this: can I use these later drives on this > > controller without problems? If there are problems, what might they be? > > > > It's almost impossible to make a drive that will handle double density > but not single density. So your '360K' drives will be fine in that > respect. > > There are likely to be 2 other differences : > > 1) The SA400 was, IIRC, a single-sided unit. Your 360K drives are double > sided. The controller may well not support double-sided operation, and it > may use the side select pin for something else (DS3 was one common use I > think). You may need to do a little bit of modification in this area. > > 2) I think the SA400 was a 35 cylinder drive, '360K' drives are 40 > cylinder. This shouldn't matter unless, for some unknown reason, the > controller only sends 35 step pulses when it tries to restore to cylinder > 0. AFAIK any standard use of the 1771 won't suffer from this. > > -tony __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sun May 21 19:08:54 2006 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 20:08:54 -0400 Subject: Wanted: RL02 terminator Message-ID: <0702729mjbirime3bgq9jt61uejo1d68kr@4ax.com> I need a terminator for an RL02 drive... anyone got a spare they'd sell at a reasonable price? thanks Charles From jclang at notms.net Mon May 1 19:21:56 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 00:21:56 -0000 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <44559B83.8070209@mindspring.com> References: <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604302020.k3UKK54L024107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <44559B83.8070209@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <06050120241700.07182@bell> On Monday 01 May 2006 01:24, you wrote: > Dennis Boone wrote: > > > > Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my > > > > industrial computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to > > > > the latest piece of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? > > > > AT&T? > > > > > > Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember > > > (very vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, > > > ages ago, but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that > > > used it. > > > > Bell did indeed invent the rack, as far as I know from my telco > > friends. And some telecom gear used or uses the wider format. > > In fact, some computer industry racks have both sizes of mount in > > them; look at the Dell racks, for example. > > > > Telcos tend to view racks as flat devices, and gear going into them > > is fairly shallow. If it's big, it's big up-and-down > > I currently work for a big datacom supplier, and design a lot of rack > mount equipment. The current major datacom/telecom customers invariably > want all equipment to fit in standard 19" two or four post racks. They > really don't like the 23" width (not 24" width) at all, and really balk > at buying a chassis that requires a 23" rack. > > More interesting is the concept of 'U' when it comes to racks. All > equipment is in units of 'U' (a standard 8' rack is 44U), which is > 1.75". So anyone know where 'U' came from, and why it is called 'U'? > > AK6DN The U is short for unit - the smallest size panel that will fit the staggered hole pattern. joe lang From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue May 2 00:38:58 2006 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 05:38:58 -0000 Subject: 19" Rack History Message-ID: Hi I worked on British (Strowger Type) automatic telephone exchanges in the 1960's. The guy I worked for (then 60+) told me they first made racks 19" to hold a given number of standard relays in a row. (Circa 1920) Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: 01 May 2006 16:49 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 19" Rack History IIRC, 19" racks go back before WWII. I'll have to check one or two of my old electronics books, but my guess is that the size originiated in the 1920's. Cheers, Chuck From kbao at thaler.com Tue May 2 22:48:18 2006 From: kbao at thaler.com (Bao, Kevin) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 03:48:18 -0000 Subject: Semiconductor Books Message-ID: <9025E129D3FCD340A7BA67E342D10E7A1309F67D@ms06.mse1.mailstreet.com> Hi, Jeff, I am looking for the Harris Semiconductor Analog databook. Do you still have the books you posted on the internet a couple of years ago? If you do, please reply this email. Thank you. Best Regards, K.B. From owad at applefritter.com Fri May 5 11:07:04 2006 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:07:04 -0000 Subject: SPI 8606 EPROM burner software? Message-ID: <3048D9A1-6FF5-42AC-AFB5-32DDD621E7EF@applefritter.com> Does anybody have software or documentation for the SPI 8606 EPROM burner? It's parallel port based. Was there any sort of standard protocol for these, or am I out of luck if I can't find the original software? Thanks, Tom -- Apple I Replica Creation: Back to the Garage By Tom Owad, Foreword by Steve Wozniak About the book: OSNews Review: From kossow at computerhistory.org Sat May 6 13:49:05 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 18:49:05 -0000 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 Message-ID: > Could you provide a scan of this manual please!!!! The only chance you have of obtaining any printed document from Tony is to pay him to go to a place that has a copier. I don't think anyone has ever been able to successfully have this happen. From jwest at ezwind.net Mon May 8 16:43:53 2006 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 16:43:53 -0500 Subject: 11/23 type gear available in Cleveland area Message-ID: <00f901c672e8$8054ad50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Heads up... a couple 11/23 systems in lowbow racks is available in the cleveland area. I'll post it momentarily with pictures... I suspect they want something for the gear, but it looks like one of the units was cannibalized, etc. Jay From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 9 08:22:54 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 09:22:54 -0400 Subject: MotoMultitasking (was: SGI.... In-Reply-To: <20060509010649.30DF2582AC@mail.wordstock.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060508195259.054e59d8@mail> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060509091650.0583f638@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: >And thusly were the wise words spake by John Foust > > > > At 07:13 PM 5/8/2006, Bryan Pope wrote: > > >And thusly were the wise words spake by Teo Zenios > > >> Responsiveness is more of a function of the OS then the hardware, Amiga > > >> users used to rave about the responsiveness of workbench and those > machines > > >> were a bit underpowered. > > > > > >Used to? ;) Anytime anybody brings up multitasking or how sluggish > > >their computer is I can't help but bring up the Amiga... :) > > > > Gee, for a second there, I thought he was going to bring up the ST. > >I don't think so... :) Wny not? There was a version of OS-9 that ran on early ST's - If it could run well on an 8-bitter, I'd bet it *rocked* on a 68K. A buddy of mine *still* owes me that Falcon... that'd make a durned nice OS-9 box! Still wouldn't mind getting an MM/1 or an AT306, but they're awfully rare nowadays... and those that have 'em, generally don't give 'em up. [[ Oh, and this isn't anything against the Amiga for sure - I'm not giving up my 4000T either, tho I haven't powered it up that often as of late. Most of my free time has been for work[1] & what little's left has been for CoCoing... ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Yes, it's an oxymoron wrapped in a conundrum, wrapped in a nice soft pita shell... ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From jdonoghue at teleshare.net Tue May 9 23:12:40 2006 From: jdonoghue at teleshare.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 23:12:40 -0500 Subject: Wang OIS60 media? In-Reply-To: <446127F8.4030701@pacbell.net> References: <445F72CC.5010506@yahoo.co.uk> <446127F8.4030701@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200605092312.41001.jdonoghue@teleshare.net> Funny, cass.net still has those pages, even though I cancelled my account when I moved almost 2 years ago. The new link is http://vs18k.dyndns.org/wang.html As far as OIS 60 system disks, I still have to make a set of disks for my OIS 50 in case it's ST506 disk fails. All the files (except the SYSGEN.MASTER.ROOT, which is the 'kernel' of the OS) are the same as for the OIS 140 (8" floppy disks). I have successfully created a boot floppy, all that remains is to recreate the 5 1/4" versions of the rest of the install, from the 8" media I have. Jim On Tuesday 09 May 2006 18:38, Jim Battle wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Just been offered a Wang OIS60, which sounds like a reasonably > > interesting machine (cardcaged-tower, ST506 disk, Z80 CPU, support for 8 > > terminals). > > > > The owner's unsure as to whether there are any system disks - and I'm > > wary of us taking this thing on if we can't rebuild it when the hard > > disk eventually dies. > > > > So, anyone have one of these and have the installation media preserved > > anywhere? (along with the hard disk formatter - hopefully Wang weren't > > one of those companies that set hard disks up at the factory and then > > shipped them out) > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > Jules, since nobody has responded, I'll forward this link: > > http://www.cass.net/~jdonoghu/ > > It is for Jim Donoghue's Wang OIS web site. I know he used to be on > this list, but I haven't seen sign of him for a while. From jclang at notms.net Thu May 11 05:01:39 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 06:01:39 -0400 Subject: Building a RS-232 fiber converter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06051106013901.10007@bell> On Thursday 11 May 2006 00:21, you wrote: > With the talk of 20mA converters, it reminds me to ask... is there a > simple schematic for a basic RS-232 to fiber media converter? In the > real world, I'd just pick a pair up at a Hamfest (or get a mate for > the single-fiber AT&T converter I have at home)... here, though, with > no planes due in for almost six months, it's make it or do without. > > I can harvest the ST-connector LEDs/phototransistors from a box of > soon-to-be-discarded AUI-to-10BaseFL transceivers, and I do have > enough MAX232-type chips that I can easily do it from a single > supply... the question just becomes... what goes in the middle? > > The station here is wired with CAT5(e?) and fiber (mostly multimode, > but some single mode)... it would be handy for me here to be able to > have some remote serial thingies without depending on terminal > servers/reverse telnet, etc.... just a small box with a DB25 or DE9 > connected to another via fiber. 19200 bps would be great, but even > 4800 bps would be better than nothing. > > Anyone have any ideas on how to construct such a beast? I can build > pretty much anything from a schematic or even a napkin, but I'm not > really a designer. If it's as simple as hooking an LED to the TTL > output of a MAX232, and the phototransistor to the input of a MAX232, > that'd be super, but I suspect that there might need to be a little > more to it than that. > > Thanks for any input/direction/etc > > -ethan Ethan I have a couple of rs232 to fiber converters. Whats in the middle of them is a VCO on the transmit and a PLL on the recieve. Think FSK modem and you're on the right track. joe lang From janviermaal at hotmail.com Fri May 12 03:09:45 2006 From: janviermaal at hotmail.com (jan Helteren) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:09:45 +0000 Subject: slt/286-driver Message-ID: this is maby a misteak.I'look for a driver thank you for mail _________________________________________________________________ MSN Webmessenger voor als je niet achter je eigen PC zit http://webmessenger.msn.com/ From timhallstrom at sbcglobal.net Sun May 14 14:28:56 2006 From: timhallstrom at sbcglobal.net (Timothy Hallstrom) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 12:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greenbar Paper Message-ID: <20060514192856.9609.qmail@web82005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Kevin ? I saw a Posting on Yahoo for your add offering Greenbar Paper. My Daughters Teacher uses it for 2nd grade writing and asked me if I knew where to get some. I live in Trumbull CT and would have you ship it to the School. Thanks Timmy from Connecticut From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue May 16 02:24:43 2006 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:24:43 +0100 Subject: Flite Electronics 68000 Microprocessor training manual Message-ID: <200605160824.43242.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi all, Does any one have an electronic copy of the manual(s) for the Flite Electronics 68000 Microprocessor board. Thanks for the help, Mark. -- Mark Wickens, Mob: 07917 653012 Email: mark at wickensonline.co.uk WWW: http://wickensonline.co.uk From robert.yount at totalfiregroup.com Thu May 18 06:25:39 2006 From: robert.yount at totalfiregroup.com (Robert Yount) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:25:39 -0400 Subject: OT: Software for Transtronics/Intronics EPROM programmer Message-ID: <22C2AF84673F30449D2CCAD289B8D22B04A33816@tf-pride.morningpride.com> Did you get the Intronics Pocket programmer software? I have it. Robert Yount Senior Engineer Morning Pride Mfg. IR Camera Lab From kossow at computerhistory.org Thu May 18 15:14:20 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:14:20 -0700 Subject: hp 264x terms on ebay Message-ID: > The guy emailed me and is ready to talk about a volume purchase deal now. Has anyone actually RECEIVED one of that they bought from him? I probably was one of the first to buy one, and it ain't here yet. From thorlacher at then-gmbh.de Fri May 19 03:48:21 2006 From: thorlacher at then-gmbh.de (Horlacher, Thilo) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:48:21 +0200 Subject: Philips LDB4401 cassette Message-ID: Dear Sir, On the internet we are looking for Philips LDB4401 cassettes " certified digital mini-cassettes" We desperately need them for a dyeing-machine (Textile). Could you tell us whether you still have app.25 pieces for us? Could you give us a price, including shipping to Germany, Schw?bisch Hall , way of payment, delivery time? Kindest regards, Mit freundlichen Gr??en Best regards Thilo Horlacher Service Dept. / Documentation Then Maschinen GmbH Milchgrundstr. 32 D-74523 Schw?bisch Hall E-* THorlacher at Then-GmbH.de *tel: +49 (0) 791/403-137 *Fax: +49 (0) 791/403-166 From gordon at gjcp.net Sun May 21 15:59:08 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:59:08 +0100 Subject: Baydel boot ROMs, was Re: M9312 boot prom listings In-Reply-To: <8256651412dundas@caltech.edu> References: <8256651412dundas@caltech.edu> Message-ID: <1148245149.17188.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Has anyone ever come across a Baydel multi-function (SLU, LTC and boot) board? If so, have you got the contents of the EPROMs? Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 22 02:11:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 00:11:07 -0700 Subject: Building new S100 floppy system In-Reply-To: <20060521190809.9833.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060521190809.9833.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200605220011070931.45465002@10.0.0.252> On 5/21/2006 at 12:08 PM Chris M wrote: >AFAICG the 1770 is a double sided controller chip, >being that its used in the RE Robot brain-board. >Purchance is it pin compatible with the dopier LOL >1771? Not close at all--the 1770's a 28 pin DIP; the 1771's a 40 pin package. The 1791 and 2791 are very close to the 1771, but the '91 requires an external data separator and the 2971 requires a few external components to enable the internal data separator. The 1770/1772/1773 are nice chips, but all lack a side select and support only a single drive with their motor control logic. Still, if I had to stay with WD 17xx type parts and 5.25" 360K drives, these are the chips that I'd use. OTOH, if I had to also support 8" and 5.25" and 3.5" HD drives, I'd use the 2971. A National 8477 would a good choice for a build-it-yourself controller--supports 4 drives, all common datarates, has drive polling, and MFM as well as FM. Using one of these, your floppy controller would be little more than the 8477, address decoding and some drive interface buffering. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon May 22 03:58:09 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:58:09 +0100 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <20060502171639.84757.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4456A852.90A07DD1@rain.org> <20060502171639.84757.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060522095221.02c17b58@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> At 18:16 02/05/2006, Chris M wrote: > Just how much use was made of IBMs ROM BASIC (or >BASICs for that matter - they were included in all the >PS/2s, and probably even later models. Yeah, schools >and stuph made use of built in BASICs, and even >utilized cassettes for storage (I learned, though I >use the term loosely, BASIC programming on the Atari >400, which sported a membrane keyboard...ugh). But I'm >not aware of too many early IBM branded PCs made their >way into schools (more so possibly by the PS/2 >period). But who the heck made any serious use of ROM >based BASIC in the *pseudo* 16 bit era and beyond? An early PC clone over here was made by Ferranti - complete with ROM based Basic and cassette interface, in the base model. It was sold by WH Smith (local high-street stationary store) alongside ZX Spectrums and other home micros. There seemed to be some big hoo-hah at one point, though, as I was working for Ferranti at the time (in an unrelated division) and we suddenly got lots and lots of EPROMs to erase and re-program after there was some issue with the BIOS and copyright .... I /might/ have a lead on some early Ferranti PCs if anybody wants one; bloke I picked a Dragon 32 up off works for what's left of them and said they had loads of old stuff still about. (I'm not interested enough in them myself..) Rob From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon May 22 04:21:07 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:21:07 +0100 Subject: Baydel boot ROMs, was Re: M9312 boot prom listings In-Reply-To: <1148245149.17188.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <8256651412dundas@caltech.edu> <1148245149.17188.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060522101815.0649ffe8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Have you tried asking Baydel themselves - they are still going ... http://www.baydel.com/contact/uk.asp I used to deal with them professionally, as we had a lot of their raid and serial cards, plus some of the older pdp-11 based kit, and always found them very helpful. Rob. At 21:59 21/05/2006, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >Has anyone ever come across a Baydel multi-function (SLU, LTC and boot) >board? If so, have you got the contents of the EPROMs? > >Gordon. > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release Date: 19/05/2006 From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon May 22 08:31:59 2006 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 08:31:59 -0500 Subject: trs-80 model 4p saved...but have no s/w In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060522101815.0649ffe8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> References: <8256651412dundas@caltech.edu> <1148245149.17188.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7.0.1.0.0.20060522101815.0649ffe8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: I saved a trs-80 model 4p from the trash yesterday. My first PC was a trs-80 model 1, but I never moved beyond cassette and stringy-floppy. The 4p has dual floppy drives but there was no software with it when I found it. I do not have a working 5.25 disk drive other than the ones in this trs-80. How can I obtain some disks to boot and test this system? thanks. -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From caveguy at wowway.com Mon May 22 09:00:26 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:00:26 -0400 Subject: Time Warp - was: Re: VCF East 3.0 This Weekend! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200605221356.k4MDuVCA003108@pop-8.dnv.wideopenwest.com> It looks like we were caught in a time warp again :) I recieved a bunch of messages last night including the one I have coppied this header from. Sent to the list Tuesday May 9th and forwarded on to the list May 21/22 ?????? I thought it was just messages from my regular email address that were getting lost in time :) I would have thought sellam at vintagetech.com could have been white listed by now or the spam rules relaxed a bit ! Just a thought The other Bob ... On Tue, 9 May 2006 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT), Sellam Ismail wrote: >Return-Path: >Received: from smtp-6.wideopenwest.com (smtp-6.wideopenwest.com [10.75.2.7] (may be forged)) > by pop-11.dnv.wideopenwest.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k4M4xPb3017556 > for ; Sun, 21 May 2006 23:59:25 -0500 >Received: from psmtp.com (exprod7mx74.postini.com [64.18.2.76]) > by smtp-6.wideopenwest.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with SMTP id k4M54GRn023683 > for ; Mon, 22 May 2006 00:04:17 -0500 >Received: from source ([209.145.140.57]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7mx74.postini.com ([64.18.6.10]) with SMTP; > Mon, 22 May 2006 05:04:32 GMT >Received: from dewey.classiccmp.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by dewey.classiccmp.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k4M58XHu085808; > Mon, 22 May 2006 00:08:58 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org) >Received: from keith.ezwind.net (keith.ezwind.net [209.145.140.15]) > by dewey.classiccmp.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k49MHXOX045639 > for ; Tue, 9 May 2006 17:17:33 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from sellam at vintagetech.com) >Received: from vintagetech.com (SICONIC.COM [66.120.4.210]) > by keith.ezwind.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k49MPObZ070277 > for ; Tue, 9 May 2006 17:25:25 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from sellam at vintagetech.com) >Received: by vintagetech.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) > id 98760FC896; Tue, 9 May 2006 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by vintagetech.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837EEFC894 > for ; Tue, 9 May 2006 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) >Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) >From: Sellam Ismail >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2, > clamav-milter version 0.86 on keith.ezwind.net >X-Virus-Status: Clean >X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=4.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO > autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 >X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on keith.ezwind.net >X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 22 May 2006 00:08:28 -0500 >Subject: VCF East 3.0 This Weekend! >X-BeenThere: cctalk at classiccmp.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 >Precedence: list >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >List-Unsubscribe: , > >List-Archive: >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: , > >Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >Errors-To: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >X-pstn-levels: (S:99.90000/99.90000 ) >X-pstn-settings: 1 (0.1500:0.1500) gt3 gt2 gt1 >X-pstn-addresses: from [39/2] >X-UIDL: =VT"!2JB"!`UE"!m&6!! > ---------------------------------------------------- > Vintage Computer Festival East 3.0 > Saturday, May 13, 10am to 6pm > InfoAge Learning Center, Wall Township, New Jersey > http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/ > ---------------------------------------------------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 22 09:10:32 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:10:32 -0500 Subject: Time Warp - was: Re: VCF East 3.0 This Weekend! References: <200605221356.k4MDuVCA003108@pop-8.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <035801c67da9$7d913090$6500a8c0@BILLING> Bob wrote.... > It looks like we were caught in a time warp again :) Most odd, I'm not sure what could have caused that. > I thought it was just messages from my regular email address that were > getting lost in time :) Wierd, none of those messages were "lost" to me, I got them all some time ago back when they were originally sent. I just got them again. Duplicates, not missing. > I would have thought sellam at vintagetech.com could have been white listed > by now or the spam rules relaxed a bit ! Posts to the cctalk list by members do not need to be whitelisted, there is no moderation on them. Jay From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon May 22 09:28:32 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:28:32 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova Trip In-Reply-To: References: <179909AE-4934-40B4-AE0C-E56EAF794F8A@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4FA5348B-2468-4E9B-A374-99A27AF97099@colourfull.com> Thanks for the compliment. I don't know if that was standard or not for the DG - Nova. The Canadian customs thing was a little difficult. Because the systems were big, Sarnia customs thought it might be best to get a bond. So I had to go see a broker and get a one trip bond for transporting through Canada. This cost me $45 for $1000 worth of goods ($2000 bond). I then had to prepare an itemized list with values (kind of like a trucking way bill). I had never done anything like this before so I thought it best to go speak to customs first. They were pretty helpful and everything seemed to go a lot easier because I was TRYING to do the right thing. Coming back into the USA was easy because I already had all the paperwork done for Canada. I just showed them all my paperwork and was good to go. Just as a side note, I took my wife and kids and we stayed overnight at Niagara falls. Rescuing old systems can be fun for family members too (even if they don't have the same interest). Rob On May 22, 2006, at 12:17 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:19 PM -0400 5/21/06, Robert Borsuk wrote: >> Just got back from my Data General Nova rescue. Thought I would >> share some pics for anyone interested. Got the units from New >> York, had to take them back through Canada (what a pain), back to >> good ole Michigan. >> >> Rob >> >> http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/PhotoAlbum2.html > > Wow, DG is not my cup of tea, but those are some beautiful systems. > Very nice looking! Is that the standard setup for a Nova 4? > > How interesting did customs make things travelling through Canada > to get home? > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 22 10:48:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:48:14 +0100 Subject: Parking heads on Honeywell DPS6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4471DD3E.9030007@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: >> Could you provide a scan of this manual please!!!! > > The only chance you have of obtaining any printed document > from Tony is to pay him to go to a place that has a copier. > > I don't think anyone has ever been able to successfully > have this happen. He's posted a few odds and ends to me in the past, FWIW... (Torch triple-X schematics and Acorn ACW service manual to name but two - neither of which are exactly slim documents) (I've got no idea why this list message only just got delivered to me, but I'm assuming everyone else has only just got it too) cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 22 11:21:07 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:21:07 +0100 Subject: Free for the taking HP/Apollo, vt100, wyse, Sun Ultra 5 In-Reply-To: <200605211019580035.424D61B3@10.0.0.252> References: <200605191711.k4JHBIjB027267@onyx.spiritone.com> <22239BB9-A379-490B-83D2-53E45FDF3450@mind-to-mind.com> <200605211019580035.424D61B3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4471E4F3.3090406@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/20/2006 at 2:15 PM Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > >> I rescued 4 HP/Apollo machines from the dumpster, 2 are PA-RISC and 2 >> are 68040 machines.... > > I'm a big fan of the PA-RISC architecture, but without software and system > experience, I think I'll have to reluctantly pass on them. The PA-RISC ones won't run Domain/OS anyway, so are possibly less interesting. I imagine far more capable PA-RISC machines can be had easily (I expect these are Apollo 7xx systems - nothing wrong with them, and the construction's nicely done - just slow compared to other PA-RISC systems) I think the DN4000 / DN4500 machines are the '040 boxes (and last in the "real" Apollo line) Would love them for Bletchley but I'm not about to ship something that heavy across the pond! cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 22 11:22:30 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:22:30 +0100 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <006a01c67c7e$76fa0c60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk><015d01c67c6b$d698a270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <446FCC59.7020804@pacbell.net> <006a01c67c7e$76fa0c60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4471E546.1000605@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: >> So I don't understand why search only works between 8pm and midnight >> (or whatever the small window is that someone stated at the beginning >> of this thread). > Because that's how long it takes the reindex process to run... from > around 2am to around 10:30pm (CST {GMT-6}). It's a horrible design, > but... soone or later I'll have to dig in to it further. We need a batch interface so we can submit search requests into the queue and get the results back the following day. (actually, that would be kinda cool and in keeping with the list charter ;-) cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 22 13:13:48 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:13:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Baydel boot ROMs, was Re: M9312 boot prom listings In-Reply-To: "Rob O'Donnell" "Re: Baydel boot ROMs, was Re: M9312 boot prom listings" (May 22, 10:21) References: <8256651412dundas@caltech.edu> <1148245149.17188.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7.0.1.0.0.20060522101815.0649ffe8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <10605221913.ZM25152@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 22 2006, 10:21, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > > Have you tried asking Baydel themselves - they are still going ... > http://www.baydel.com/contact/uk.asp > > I used to deal with them professionally, as we had a lot of their > raid and serial cards, plus some of the older pdp-11 based kit, and > always found them very helpful. That's been my experience too. > At 21:59 21/05/2006, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >Has anyone ever come across a Baydel multi-function (SLU, LTC and boot) > >board? If so, have you got the contents of the EPROMs? If anyone does have them, I would like to add them to my collection of DEC(-related) ROM images. I have three images of Baydel EPROMs, all for their F11-311 RXV11 emulation board. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 22 13:11:46 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:11:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: Patrick Finnegan "Re: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score" (May 4, 20:49) References: <200605042049.24965.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: <10605221911.ZM25149@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 4 2006, 20:49, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 04 May 2006 20:02, Richard wrote: > > In article > > <1514.86.138.231.62.1146787022.squirrel at webmail.geekdot.com>, > > "Lee Davison" writes: > > See, I didn't even know that Matrox ever made a terminal :-). > > > > This is the same Matrox that makes PCI video cards in Dorvall, > > And the same that made a QBUS framebuffer that I found in a > Plessy-badged LSI-11/73 system. And that made the S100 cards I have for my Cromemco System 3. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 22 13:10:16 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:10:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Now on to sum Indigo 2 questions was Re: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/ In-Reply-To: Chris M "Now on to sum Indigo 2 questions was Re: Stewpit Indy questions <:-/" (May 11, 16:28) References: <20060511232838.42054.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10605221910.ZM25146@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 11 2006, 16:28, Chris M wrote: Hmm, didn't this get answered already? Oh well, since I can't remember what anyone said this morning, never mind over ten days ago... > I've been successful in actually obtaining IRIX 6.5.?, > being that the gov't took the liberty of wiping the > hard drives clean. Each comes with at least a whopping > 2 gig hard drive, some actually have 2 of these. > Egads. I can't imagine this level of storage being > very useful, being that the 6.5.? distribution resides > on 18 compact disks, but what do I know. You can fit a very basic 6.5.x install in under 500MB, and a reasonable install easily goes into less than 2GB. The reason you have so many CDs is that you have the base OS and then extras like NFS and the compiler libraries which each have their own CD, then you have various updates and install tools, and separately the various new versions of applications and utilities. > But I > obtained these bizzarish 9.1 gig SCSI hard drives at a > computer show. They were destined for use in some > Unisys box, and are encapsulated in a plastic > cartridge/caddy thing. I'm guessing the interface is > SCA, although it differs from the plug that accepts > the drive sled in my Indigo 2's (they won't fit, I > tried). I guess I should have secured the part numbers > of the drive at least (Fujitsu), and I'll do that in a > follow up posting. Sounds a bit like Sun disks, but they have normal SCA connectors. If what these disk have is something that looks like a shorter version of an SCA, on the actual drive itself, that is probably fibre channel. > I read somewhere that these SGI boxes > can use ANY? SCSI drive, provided they're not HDV. If > indeed this is true, is it also true for the Indy's, > being I got 2 of those in the same acquistion. O2s and the like want LVD. Indys use single-ended narrow drives, but LVD drives *should* sense that they're in a single-ended system and operate in SE mode -- that's part of the standard. A couple of mine have LVD drives. Wide drives will also work providing you have the correct adapter -- you probably need one that terminates the upper 8 bits -- though you can still only uses unit numbers 1-7 (0 is the controller on SGIs). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 22 14:05:56 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:05:56 -0500 Subject: Philips LDB4401 cassette References: Message-ID: <003701c67dd2$c1c38be0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... > On the internet we are looking for Philips LDB4401 cassettes " certified > digital mini-cassettes" > > We desperately need them for a dyeing-machine (Textile). Could you tell us > whether you still have app.25 pieces for us? Get it? A DYEing machine? Get it? ark ark ark ark From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 22 14:24:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:24:51 -0700 Subject: Philips LDB4401 cassette In-Reply-To: <003701c67dd2$c1c38be0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003701c67dd2$c1c38be0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200605221224510655.47E60F49@10.0.0.252> On 5/22/2006 at 2:05 PM Jay West wrote: >Get it? A DYEing machine? Get it? ark ark ark ark Yeah. I wonder of ordinary audio mini-cassettes would work... From dm561 at torfree.net Mon May 22 15:47:39 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:47:39 -0400 Subject: atari printers Message-ID: <01C67DBF.725A8BC0@MSE_D03> ----------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 00:28:55 +0200 From: "arne graff" Subject: atari printers Looking for a small plotter I was directed to one of your sites. Do you know anywhere I could get hold of a Tandy CGP-115 new or used? Regards Arne Graff ------------------Reply: I've got one: very slightly used, boxed with PS, manual & dust cover. Also extra rolls of paper and 3 or 4 sets of pens, although, except for 2 black ones, they're dried out by now. Contact off-list if interested. BTW: Anybody have any experience reviving/replacing this type of pen? (Just stubby little ball-points, also used in several other plotters of the day). mike From Tim at Rikers.org Mon May 22 17:11:54 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:11:54 -0600 Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <4471E546.1000605@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk><015d01c67c6b$d698a270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <446FCC59.7020804@pacbell.net> <006a01c67c7e$76fa0c60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4471E546.1000605@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4472372A.2030806@Rikers.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > We need a batch interface so we can submit search requests into the > queue and get the results back the following day. (actually, that would > be kinda cool and in keeping with the list charter ;-) Make sure you number the punch cards in case they get dropped. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 22 17:24:11 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 15:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archive search In-Reply-To: <4472372A.2030806@Rikers.org> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <446DCE46.5060709@yahoo.co.uk><015d01c67c6b$d698a270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <446FCC59.7020804@pacbell.net> <006a01c67c7e$76fa0c60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4471E546.1000605@yahoo.co.uk> <4472372A.2030806@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <20060522152327.H84513@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 22 May 2006, Tim Riker wrote: > > We need a batch interface so we can submit search requests into the > > queue and get the results back the following day. (actually, that would > > be kinda cool and in keeping with the list charter ;-) > > Make sure you number the punch cards in case they get dropped. and make a diagonal mark on the deck, so that there can be a visual alert to a scrambled deck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 17:13:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 23:13:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: <0IZ8004K88MVSXS5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at May 13, 6 07:19:26 pm Message-ID: [DEC regulator bricks] > Note there is an internal fuse! In my (limited) experience, that fuse only fails when there's some other major failure in the brick (like some of the power semiconductors have shorted). And I can't remember the last time I replaced a fuse in a computer, peripheral, or other electronic device and didn't have to replace some other components at the same time. Fuses don't fail for no reason. Anyway, let's find out if the problem is inside the brick or outside before suggesting possible component failures. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 17:22:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 23:22:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: trs-80 model 4p saved...but have no s/w In-Reply-To: from "Bob Brown" at May 22, 6 08:31:59 am Message-ID: > > I saved a trs-80 model 4p from the trash yesterday. My first PC was > a trs-80 model 1, but I never moved > beyond cassette and stringy-floppy. > > The 4p has dual floppy drives but there was no software with it when > I found it. I do not have a working 5.25 disk drive > other than the ones in this trs-80. How can I obtain some disks to > boot and test this system? Since the Model 4 (and I assume 4p) native format is double density, you can write the disks on just about an PC. And disk images for things like LS-DOS 6.31. (which I use on my Model 4) are available from Tim Mann's site. This leaves the problem of you not having a PC with 5.25" drives. You might find it easiest to 'borrow' the drives from the 4p and cable one of them up to a PC controller. Write the boot disk, then reassemble the 4P. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 17:03:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 23:03:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <20060502171639.84757.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 2, 6 10:16:39 am Message-ID: > period). But who the heck made any serious use of ROM > based BASIC in the *pseudo* 16 bit era and beyond? Depends on what you mean by 'serious use', but I was certainly glad of ROM basic when my 5160 XT wouldn't boot. I used it to write values to output ports on the disk controller card while probing signals with a logic probe. Found a defective inverter chip very quickly. Sure a machine code monitor would have been even nicer, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 17:07:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 23:07:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM Professional Graphics Adapter In-Reply-To: <20060508213243.55613.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 8, 6 02:32:43 pm Message-ID: > > I just received the first part of a shipment which > includes an IBM 5175 monitor. The PGA card and > possibly the AT box it resides in is on it's way. I > plugged the monitor into my Vermont Microsystems card > (essentially a PGA clone), and it worked like a charm. > Have yet to plug the monitor into a VGA card and > investigate that noise (the PGA card possibly has some > funky syncing scheme, like combined sync or > sync-on-green). But regardless, I'm desirous of docs > for these babies, technical or otherwise. Programming > infor-mation is of the utmost importance. Can anyone > help? I am reluctant to post this, because last time I posted something similar I got flamed, but anyway... I have the official IBM Techref for the PGC card (I believe that was the official name, it was the Professional Graphics Controller), and the monitor. Complete with schemaitcs (which I can't post, not having a scanner) and programming info. I can extract useful bits from the programming docs if you like. I assume you realise it does a hardware emulation of the CGA card (not including the 100*160 mode?). And that the 'better' mode is not memory mapped at all, rather you send commands to the card to draw lines, circles, etc. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 22 17:46:27 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 15:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: trs-80 model 4p saved...but have no s/w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060522154455.H87858@shell.lmi.net> > > The 4p has dual floppy drives but there was no software with it when > > I found it. I do not have a working 5.25 disk drive > > other than the ones in this trs-80. How can I obtain some disks to > > boot and test this system? > On Mon, 22 May 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > Since the Model 4 (and I assume 4p) native format is double density, you > can write the disks on just about an PC. And disk images for things like > LS-DOS 6.31. (which I use on my Model 4) are available from Tim Mann's site. > > This leaves the problem of you not having a PC with 5.25" drives. You > might find it easiest to 'borrow' the drives from the 4p and cable one of > them up to a PC controller. Write the boot disk, then reassemble the 4P. OR,... if you are going to actually USE the machine, then consider replacing one of its 5.25" floppies with a 720K 3.5". Does the 4P have an external floppy port like the 3 and 4? From wulfcub at gmail.com Mon May 22 18:04:34 2006 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:04:34 -0500 Subject: Free PDP Memory/BA11/Modem Manuals In-Reply-To: <8BCFC87B30B31B4E84301DEDCDCF3C254E395C@PAMAILCL1.ropesgray.firm> References: <8BCFC87B30B31B4E84301DEDCDCF3C254E395C@PAMAILCL1.ropesgray.firm> Message-ID: On 4/30/06, Beamer, Norman H. wrote: > Please tell me how many bytes this memory had: Mostek Memory Systems MK8015 PDP-11 Add-In Memory > The MK8015 sported 128K of MOS memory. Unfortunately, this is all I can tell you. --Wulf -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon May 22 17:52:29 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:52:29 -0400 Subject: BA11-K low AC output levels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605221852.29166.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 22 May 2006 06:13 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > [DEC regulator bricks] > > > Note there is an internal fuse! > > In my (limited) experience, that fuse only fails when there's some other > major failure in the brick (like some of the power semiconductors have > shorted). > > And I can't remember the last time I replaced a fuse in a computer, > peripheral, or other electronic device and didn't have to replace some > other components at the same time. I can. > Fuses don't fail for no reason. Sure they do. Not often, but it happens sometimes. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon May 22 18:17:28 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:17:28 -0400 Subject: Wanted: RL02 terminator In-Reply-To: <0702729mjbirime3bgq9jt61uejo1d68kr@4ax.com> References: <0702729mjbirime3bgq9jt61uejo1d68kr@4ax.com> Message-ID: <44724688.3090400@nktelco.net> Charles wrote: > I need a terminator for an RL02 drive... anyone got a spare they'd > sell at a reasonable price? > thanks > Charles > Me too. I have an RL02 and both Qbus and Unibus controllers, but no terminator. I spent an afternoon several years ago trying to get it to work without knowing I needed a terminator. Short of a terminator, how about a schematic. I could probably figure it out from the controller and drive schematics. There does not seem to be a terminator schematic in the places I have looked. Another Charles From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon May 22 18:21:51 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:21:51 -0500 Subject: Free for the taking HP/Apollo, vt100, wyse, Sun Ultra 5 Message-ID: <41133af213274bd2a39c2bf1e3914f9c@valleyimplants.com> The Apollos might be the "Hybrid" 400 series, they might even be the pizzabox 425. Whilst not pure Apollos, they have the advantage of smaller size, DOMAIN/OS compatibility, and built-in, supported SCSI for disks (just not big ones). Whatever you do, don't throw out DOMAIN keyboards/mice please. RI isn't on my route home, otherwise I'd probably bite for something. The HPPA systems probably have the possiblity of running NeXTSTEP/HPPA, definitely the BSDish HP-UX variant. As you said, big, unless they are the tiny 9000/712s From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 22 19:43:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:43:45 -0700 Subject: IBM Professional Graphics Adapter In-Reply-To: <20060508213243.55613.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060508213243.55613.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200605221743450718.490A0482@10.0.0.252> On 5/8/2006 at 2:32 PM Chris M wrote: >I just received the first part of a shipment which >includes an IBM 5175 monitor. The PGA card and >possibly the AT box it resides in is on it's way. I >plugged the monitor into my Vermont Microsystems card >(essentially a PGA clone), and it worked like a charm. >Have yet to plug the monitor into a VGA card and >investigate that noise (the PGA card possibly has some >funky syncing scheme, like combined sync or >sync-on-green). But regardless, I'm desirous of docs >for these babies, technical or otherwise. Programming >infor-mation is of the utmost importance. Can anyone >help? First off, you need to understand that the PGC was a bizarre creature, unlike any other display adapter that IBM made. Because of this, there's darned little software that's going to be able to use it in anything other than CGA emulation mode. To start with, the display in PGC native mode isn't memory-mapped. You pass the 8088 onboard CPU drawing commands and it interprets them. Because of this, the drawing speed of the PGC isn't terribly high and a PC AT with an EGA can easily outdraw a PGC. IIRC, the PGC, was power-hungry, took 3 cards and 2 slots(!) and very expensive--and introduced not long before the PC AT, so it became an orphan pretty quickly. Compared with the EGA, the PGC does offer a 256 color display out of a 4096 color palette--but the VGA improved on this considerably and pretty much rendered the PGC a dead duck. According to the website below, there were clones from Matrox, Vermont Microsystems, Orchid and Everex, although I can't recall seeing any of them. At any rate, rather than scan the very long Techref, here's some useful informaton. The first is from IBM that documents the whole idea behind the thing: http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/241/ibmsj2401D.pdf Here's information about programming: http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/pgc.html Cheers, Chuck P.S. Is anyone else getting these messages more than a week after they were sent? From useddec at aol.com Mon May 22 20:14:08 2006 From: useddec at aol.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:14:08 -0500 Subject: Wanted: RL02 terminator In-Reply-To: <44724688.3090400@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <000301c67e06$31d60150$4f00a8c0@main> I should have a few of these somewhere. Are you going to Purdue in July? Paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of C. H. Dickman Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 6:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Wanted: RL02 terminator Charles wrote: > I need a terminator for an RL02 drive... anyone got a spare they'd > sell at a reasonable price? > thanks > Charles > Me too. I have an RL02 and both Qbus and Unibus controllers, but no terminator. I spent an afternoon several years ago trying to get it to work without knowing I needed a terminator. Short of a terminator, how about a schematic. I could probably figure it out from the controller and drive schematics. There does not seem to be a terminator schematic in the places I have looked. Another Charles From allain at panix.com Mon May 22 21:00:47 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 22:00:47 -0400 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > should I perform any maintenance? No obvious place to > oil it. Pops or farts when I rotate the pulley by hand > - is this a favorable sign of its condition? It's somewhat likely that the seals' noises will get less intrusive as the compressor is operated at it's normal speed. Have you priced new Sears stuff? It can be affordable. To camp-on another related question, as one operates a dust blow-out solution, it is equally useful to have something like a HEPA air-cleaner, to keep your nose and lungs from being the dominant air-cleaners in the room. I'm looking for a reccomendation for a good room-air cleaner. Probably just an fan-and-filter, an ozonic type would likely ? increase ESD problems. John A. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 22 21:12:45 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:12:45 -0700 Subject: Philips LDB4401 cassette In-Reply-To: <200605221224510655.47E60F49@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Hi I have some ceritfied digital cassettes and they don't work for audio. I suspect the material has a lot more hysteresus than normal tape. He could have these but they are not Philps cassettes. I can use them because my needs for computer cassettes is all audio grade tapes. Dwight >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Philips LDB4401 cassette >Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:24:51 -0700 > >On 5/22/2006 at 2:05 PM Jay West wrote: > > >Get it? A DYEing machine? Get it? ark ark ark ark > >Yeah. > >I wonder of ordinary audio mini-cassettes would work... > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 22 21:19:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:19:26 -0700 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200605221919260081.49619AE8@10.0.0.252> On 5/22/2006 at 10:00 PM John Allain wrote: >To camp-on another related question, as one operates a dust blow-out >solution, it is equally useful to have something like a HEPA air-cleaner, >to keep your nose and lungs from being the dominant air-cleaners in the >room. I'm looking for a reccomendation for a good room-air cleaner. >Probably just an fan-and-filter, an ozonic type would likely ? increase ESD >problems. Not to mention destroy any rubber that might still be in that treasure of yours. My wife won't let me bring any old thing into the house that's been accumulating dust and bugs--so it gets the compressed air treatment out-of-doors. An inexpensive respirator mask should keep the dust from getting into *your* innards. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 22 21:41:21 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:41:21 +1200 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: <01C67DBF.725A8BC0@MSE_D03> References: <01C67DBF.725A8BC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On 5/23/06, M H Stein wrote: > BTW: Anybody have any experience reviving/replacing this type of pen? ISTR putting dead pens in a pan of hot water for a few minutes may have helped, but it's not really a permanent solution - they gum up again rather soon. And just since someone brought it up, did anyone ever come up with a solution to the common problem with these plotters - broken gears? I don't have the specifics on hand (we did debate the gear characteristics endlessly) but the small gears that slide directly on the motor shafts tend to crack, allowing them to slip on the shaft, causing registration errors. My memory of this topic is that these aren't a terribly common gear, and finding an off-the-shelf replacement is somewhat problematic. I have several mechanisms, some as printers (Atari, Commodore), some as bare frames (surplus from Electronic Goldmine a few years back) - I don't think I have 4 good gears in the entire pile. Anyone here ever come up with a solution? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 22 22:17:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:17:35 -0700 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: References: <01C67DBF.725A8BC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200605222017350829.4996DA30@10.0.0.252> On 5/23/2006 at 2:41 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: >I have several mechanisms, some as printers (Atari, Commodore), some >as bare frames (surplus from Electronic Goldmine a few years back) - I >don't think I have 4 good gears in the entire pile. Anyone here ever >come up with a solution? Would any of the stuff that Small Parts sells be of any use? http://www.smallparts.com/components/ Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon May 22 22:39:53 2006 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 21:39:53 -0600 Subject: Free/cheap Heath/Zenith stuff and an Altos Message-ID: <2495b16129914f20a93ede31e83e4217@207.214.111.148> Hello All, There are currently listings for free/cheap items over at the Vintage Computer Forums. The following thread contains the details of some Heath/Zenith gear (H89, Z100, etc.) and an unidentified Altos system with 8" drives available for pickup in the Bay Area. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=2960 As usual there are also a number of postings for machines and items for sale (or wanted) in addition to the usual variety of good Vintage Computer discussions. This has been a public service announcement. ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum ________________________________________________ Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 23 00:39:36 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:39:36 +1200 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: <200605222017350829.4996DA30@10.0.0.252> References: <01C67DBF.725A8BC0@MSE_D03> <200605222017350829.4996DA30@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 5/23/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/23/2006 at 2:41 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >I have several mechanisms, some as printers (Atari, Commodore), some > >as bare frames (surplus from Electronic Goldmine a few years back) - I > >don't think I have 4 good gears in the entire pile. Anyone here ever > >come up with a solution? > > Would any of the stuff that Small Parts sells be of any use? > > http://www.smallparts.com/components/ This is the only one with the right number of teeth (14), but I can't verify the other measurements because my plotters are 10,000 miles away... ( http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/gd.cfm ) GDS-3214 14 teeth / 0.438" pitch dia. / 5/32" bore / 5/16" hub dia. $2.00 ea / $18.13 for 10 / $41.20 for 25. If this part matches the specs for the plotter gear, that'd be great. I was unsuccessful in googling any old articles about this topic. I remember it being discussed in mid-2003 (based on where I was working at the time), perhaps May, if that helps. If anyone has any of the former discussion and can cough up the shaft diameter and the pitch diameter of the gear, that'd be what we need to see if this is the right gear. -ethan From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue May 23 01:01:50 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:01:50 +0800 Subject: Data General Nova Trip In-Reply-To: <179909AE-4934-40B4-AE0C-E56EAF794F8A@colourfull.com> References: <179909AE-4934-40B4-AE0C-E56EAF794F8A@colourfull.com> Message-ID: The dasher printer looks absolutely gorgeous!! The blue color scheme is so beautiful.. Thanks for the computer pr0n!! :-) On 5/22/06, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Just got back from my Data General Nova rescue. Thought I would > share some pics for anyone interested. Got the units from New York, > had to take them back through Canada (what a pain), back to good ole > Michigan. > > Rob > > > http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/PhotoAlbum2.html > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 23 02:58:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 00:58:25 -0700 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: References: <01C67DBF.725A8BC0@MSE_D03> <200605222017350829.4996DA30@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605230058250348.4A97F2C7@10.0.0.252> On 5/23/2006 at 5:39 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: >If this part matches the specs for the plotter gear, that'd be great. >I was unsuccessful in googling any old articles about this topic. I >remember it being discussed in mid-2003 (based on where I was working >at the time), perhaps May, if that helps. If anyone has any of the >former discussion and can cough up the shaft diameter and the pitch >diameter of the gear, that'd be what we need to see if this is the >right gear. If that doesn't work, try these folks: http://www.sdp-si.com/eStore/CoverPg/Gears.htm You can probably find more small-quantity vendors by googling on "engineering findings". Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 23 08:35:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:35:38 +0100 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <44730FAA.1030105@yahoo.co.uk> John Allain wrote: > To camp-on another related question, as one operates a dust blow-out > solution, it is equally useful to have something like a HEPA air-cleaner, > to keep your nose and lungs from being the dominant air-cleaners in the > room. I'm looking for a reccomendation for a good room-air cleaner. > Probably just an fan-and-filter Suitable vacuum cleaner? I see working Dysons on the local (UK) freecycle list all the time as people upgrade to larger models, and they have HEPA filters. I'm actually wondering if you could rig something so that it does the job of the air compressor too... cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 23 09:27:57 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 07:27:57 -0700 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <44730FAA.1030105@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44730FAA.1030105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44731BED.8000507@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Suitable vacuum cleaner? I see working Dysons on the local (UK) > freecycle list all the time as people upgrade to larger models, and they > have HEPA filters. > > I'm actually wondering if you could rig something so that it does the > job of the air compressor too... Ummm, if the OP was talking about sucking dust out of electronic equipment rather than blowing it out, a normal vacuum cleaner isn't a great idea. Depending on the composition of the nozzle, they can generate a heck of a static charge. I'm sure the same would be true using it as a blower, too, but you'd probably not get as close to the work with it. Doc From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue May 23 09:31:24 2006 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:31:24 -0400 Subject: Adventure for the KIM-1 Message-ID: All: I just read a reference in Compute! Magazine (March/April 1980) to a version of Adventure for the KIM-1. I did some quick Googling but didn't come up with much. The article mentions that it was written by Robert Leedom. Do any of the KIMers on the list have a copy of this I could get? Thanks. Rich From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 23 09:33:21 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:33:21 +0100 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <44731BED.8000507@mdrconsult.com> References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44730FAA.1030105@yahoo.co.uk> <44731BED.8000507@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <44731D31.9000008@yahoo.co.uk> Doc Shipley wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Suitable vacuum cleaner? I see working Dysons on the local (UK) >> freecycle list all the time as people upgrade to larger models, and >> they have HEPA filters. >> >> I'm actually wondering if you could rig something so that it does the >> job of the air compressor too... > > Ummm, if the OP was talking about sucking dust out of electronic > equipment rather than blowing it out, a normal vacuum cleaner isn't a > great idea. I think they were talking about blowing - I just wondered if you could reverse the motor direction in a cleaner, or just tap off the 'other' side of the motor or something. It's not doing the job it was designed for then, but may well provide airflow for blasting dirt as well as filtering room air through the HEPA filter. I certainly wasn't thinking of keeping the existing hose (too bulky!) - chop all that off along with any other unnecessary bits and just install a much thinner flexible pipe as appropriate. Nowhere near as good as a compressor, but possibly good enough for the purposes of blowing crud out of old computer stuff. Of course, as you say, the static side of things might be a big problem though :-( cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 23 10:27:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 08:27:29 -0700 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <44731D31.9000008@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44730FAA.1030105@yahoo.co.uk> <44731BED.8000507@mdrconsult.com> <44731D31.9000008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200605230827290273.4C331A63@10.0.0.252> On 5/23/2006 at 3:33 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Nowhere near as good as a compressor, but possibly good enough for the >purposes of blowing crud out of old computer stuff. Of course, as you say, >the >static side of things might be a big problem though :-( Probably not sufficiently adequate--a good blowout gets into tight spaces with a small stream of high-pressure very fast-moving air. A vacuum cleaner is basically built for air volume, not pressure. A very related question--occasionally, I'll see some dust that's been "cemented" to PCBs and other surfaces by ambient moisture. An air compressor is worthless in this case. I've resorted to scrubbing things out with a soft-long-bristled brush, water and a mild detergent, followed by rinsing and drying. Obviously, because of the water, not an ideal situation. In the bad old days, I'dve simply flooded the item with Freon TF, but that's a no-no now. Same for carbon tet. What do you folks use when something more aggressive than air is called for? Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 23 10:16:20 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:16:20 -0500 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <44731BED.8000507@mdrconsult.com> References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44730FAA.1030105@yahoo.co.uk> <44731BED.8000507@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060523101447.04d07870@mail> At 09:27 AM 5/23/2006, you wrote: > Ummm, if the OP was talking about sucking dust out of electronic equipment rather than blowing it out, a normal vacuum cleaner isn't a great idea. Depending on the composition of the nozzle, they can generate a heck of a static charge. Suck or blow, I don't think that matters... you're saying the composition of the tube makes a difference? I seem to remember generating enough charge to make a PC reboot by blowing the mobo with canned air while it was running. - John From caveguy at wowway.com Tue May 23 10:36:45 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:36:45 -0400 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060523101447.04d07870@mail> Message-ID: <200605231541.k4NFferV028638@pop-7.dnv.wideopenwest.com> I suspect the rebooting was caused by the leviataion of a contact of teh momentary loss of contact as dust was forsed between a set of contacts some where most likely on the Motherboard. Alas for the gold old days when you could fer Freon TF for a few dollars a can, by the case :) The other Bob On Tue, 23 May 2006 10:16:20 -0500, John Foust wrote: >At 09:27 AM 5/23/2006, you wrote: >> Ummm, if the OP was talking about sucking dust out of electronic equipment rather than blowing it out, a normal vacuum cleaner isn't a great idea. Depending on the composition of the nozzle, they can generate a heck of a static charge. >Suck or blow, I don't think that matters... you're saying the >composition of the tube makes a difference? I seem to remember >generating enough charge to make a PC reboot by blowing the >mobo with canned air while it was running. >- John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 23 11:17:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:17:14 +0100 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <200605230827290273.4C331A63@10.0.0.252> References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44730FAA.1030105@yahoo.co.uk> <44731BED.8000507@mdrconsult.com> <44731D31.9000008@yahoo.co.uk> <200605230827290273.4C331A63@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4473358A.7090207@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > A very related question--occasionally, I'll see some dust that's been > "cemented" to PCBs and other surfaces by ambient moisture. An air > compressor is worthless in this case. I've resorted to scrubbing things > out with a soft-long-bristled brush, water and a mild detergent, followed > by rinsing and drying. Obviously, because of the water, not an ideal > situation. I find the water / detergent approach works fine, providing the boards are dried well afterwards. Usually I use a hairdryer to get the bulk of the water out from beneath ICs and then leave to sit in the hot water tank cupboard for a week or so. Never had a problem with this, but it doubtless depends on the quality of the water used. I've ever tried baking boards in the oven afterwards to dry them - I'm wary of the heat level doing something that it shouldn't. I believe others have done that with no problems, though. Downside to the water/detergent approach is that it'll damage any paper labels on the boards, and can also harm inked IC data on those ceramic ICs with the square gold covers in the centre. cheers Jules From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue May 23 11:43:13 2006 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (Off-topic ?) Motorola HDS-200/Hitachi Development System (HAL-SJ ?) Message-ID: <20060523164313.90655.qmail@web30613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Does anyone have knowledge of Motorola HDS-200 Hardware Development Systems ? I brought one home from Dayton bundled with a pair of HP64000 mainframes, manuals and emulation pods. The HDS-200 has a base unit, cables, emulation pods (68HC05 variants) and program cartridges. I am not sure whether I will do anything with it yet - just curious to know about these systems and their capabilities. Also in the carton: an (apparently unused) Hitachi development system of some sort, with a label marked 'HAL-SJ' and two boards marked H31MIX3. I'm guessing it's a 6301 or 6303 development system. Anyone with embedded systems or uP system development knowledge care to comment ? -Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 23 13:12:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:12:33 -0500 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44730FAA.1030105@yahoo.co.uk><44731BED.8000507@mdrconsult.com> <44731D31.9000008@yahoo.co.uk><200605230827290273.4C331A63@10.0.0.252> <4473358A.7090207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <006101c67e94$77103bd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Chuck wrote.... >>I've resorted to scrubbing things >> out with a soft-long-bristled brush, water and a mild detergent, followed >> by rinsing and drying. Obviously, because of the water, not an ideal >> situation. And Jules replied... > I find the water / detergent approach works fine, providing the boards are > dried well afterwards. Here's the issue - water is good for cleaning boards. The problem is it isn't good for drying on boards. Several problems: 1) Some water remains, and oxidizes things that shouldn't be when it dries (even if it's distilled). 2) Even if you dry the board well, oven bake it, whatever... the water will leave behind mineral deposits (unless it's distilled). So... here is how you solve the problem. 1) Clean the board using distilled water. 2) Pour denatured alcohol liberally over the board. Denatured alcohol will force the remaining water off the board, and force the water out of nooks and crevices, windings, etc. 3) Then dry well - if using an oven, be careful about where you set the open bottle of denatured alcohol :) Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 13:32:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:32:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <200605230827290273.4C331A63@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 23, 6 08:27:29 am Message-ID: > In the bad old days, I'dve simply flooded the item with Freon TF, but > that's a no-no now. Same for carbon tet. What do you folks use when > something more aggressive than air is called for? Propan-2-ol (isopropanol, isopropyl alcohol). You can get spray cans of it in the UK. Spray it on the board (oe whatever), then brush. It's safe on most things (I seem to remember it's a bad idea on some optical plastics, though). Certainly OK on PCBs, IC packages, etc. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 23 13:30:35 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: <006101c67e94$77103bd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <20060503012840.26685.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <00ba01c67e0c$b9cc0220$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44730FAA.1030105@yahoo.co.uk><44731BED.8000507@mdrconsult.com> <44731D31.9000008@yahoo.co.uk><200605230827290273.4C331A63@10.0.0.252> <4473358A.7090207@yahoo.co.uk> <006101c67e94$77103bd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200605231840.OAA04815@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 1) Clean the board using distilled water. > 2) Pour denatured alcohol liberally over the board. Denatured > alcohol will force the remaining water off the board, and force > the water out of nooks and crevices, windings, etc. (Or non-denatured, for that matter; while it'll be more expensive, it'll not have the deliberate impurities. Everclear, anyone?) Anhydrous ethanol would be best for grabbing onto leftover water, but it's hard to get rid of that last 5(?) percent of water. How about acetone? A lot of the stuff involved is probably soluble in acetone, but I suspect it's not soluble enough for a quick rinse to do enough damage to matter - though, to be sure, I'd try it on a few non-precious boards first. Anyone tried it? Back when I used a chem lab, we washed glassware with plain tap water and an acetone rinse, so it disposes of stray water, even carrying low levels of impurities, tolerably well. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From technobug at comcast.net Tue May 23 14:08:23 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:08:23 -0700 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: <200605231533.k4NFXGkx010714@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200605231533.k4NFXGkx010714@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2006 14:41:21 +1200, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > I have several mechanisms, some as printers (Atari, Commodore), some > as bare frames (surplus from Electronic Goldmine a few years back) - I > don't think I have 4 good gears in the entire pile. Anyone here ever > come up with a solution? > > -ethan An excellent source: CRC From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 23 15:12:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:12:21 -0700 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605231312210471.4D37E8C8@10.0.0.252> On 5/23/2006 at 7:32 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Propan-2-ol (isopropanol, isopropyl alcohol). You can get spray cans of >it in the UK. Spray it on the board (oe whatever), then brush. I can purchase gallon cans of methanol (wood alcohol) here without breaking the bank. Will that also work? (BTW, this is the stuff that I use to clean up flux deposits). Acetone can do so many bad things to plastics that I'd just as soon not try it as a drying agent--though we used to use it on glassware. How about some of the more unconventional solvents, such as DMSO? Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 23 16:54:03 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:54:03 -0400 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: References: <200605231533.k4NFXGkx010714@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4473847B.3070708@atarimuseum.com> If you need anything specific for the Atari printers - www.best-electronics-ca.com Stocks every individual part/chip for every Atari product produced. Curt CRC wrote: > > On Tue, 23 May 2006 14:41:21 +1200, "Ethan Dicks" > wrote: > >> I have several mechanisms, some as printers (Atari, Commodore), some >> as bare frames (surplus from Electronic Goldmine a few years back) - I >> don't think I have 4 good gears in the entire pile. Anyone here ever >> come up with a solution? >> >> -ethan > > An excellent source: > > CRC > > > --No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.7.0/345 - Release Date: 5/22/2006 > > From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue May 23 17:39:49 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:39:49 -0500 Subject: Reading old tapes Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060523173343.0c833328@localhost> Dave R from UWM (Milwaukee) asked me if I knew how to read his old 9-track tapes. I told him one of the best places to ask was here. So I'm asking. Al, this is tall Dave I'm talking about. He doesn't have a drive, working or not, and I have no clues about what format it is. I'm in the process of asking. Any ideas? [Authors] "90% of everything is crap" --T. Sturgeon "111% of crap is everything" --L. Wall --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From drb at msu.edu Tue May 23 18:07:30 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:07:30 -0400 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 23 May 2006 17:39:49 CDT.) <5.1.0.14.2.20060523173343.0c833328@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060523173343.0c833328@localhost> Message-ID: <200605232307.k4NN7UhO028259@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Dave R from UWM (Milwaukee) asked me if I knew how to read his old > 9-track tapes. I told him one of the best places to ask was here. So > I'm asking. Al, this is tall Dave I'm talking about. > > He doesn't have a drive, working or not, and I have no clues about > what format it is. I'm in the process of asking. > > Any ideas? A variety of list.people seem to have working 9-track drives. I've just recently read some of my old Pr1me tapes on mine. There are a few common formats used with machine emulators; the simh one is pretty simple. I wrote my own unix C code to read tapes into that type of file; there are other programs around too. If he wants to do it himself, SCSI 9-track drives (e.g. DEC TSZ07 units, or Overland hardware) do trade on eBay. De From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue May 23 18:42:00 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:42:00 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605232307.k4NN7UhO028259@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060523173343.0c833328@localhost> <200605232307.k4NN7UhO028259@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <44739DC8.3090704@msm.umr.edu> Dennis Boone wrote: >If he wants to do it himself, SCSI 9-track drives (e.g. DEC TSZ07 >units, or Overland hardware) do trade on eBay. > > > > If he is looking to buy a drive, there is one on epay now, that I was eyeing for parts. 8816272606 this is the scsi overland unit, which is pretty gentle with tapes which may be old, rather than trying to go a million miles an hour, like the bigger cipers, etc. Some others may be willing to take them and read them for him, which might be better than trying to assemble a tape reading capability just for a single set of tapes. Jim From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue May 23 18:44:32 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:44:32 -0500 Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance Message-ID: >I find the water / detergent approach works fine, providing the boards are >dried well afterwards. Usually I use a hairdryer to get the bulk of the water >out from beneath ICs and then leave to sit in the hot water tank cupboard for >a week or so. Never had a problem with this, but it doubtless depends on the >quality of the water used. I'd definitely investigate using distilled water, especially for the final rinse. For the air cleaner- a room model might be good because it would (hopefully) keep some dust out of your machines. For cleaning, you can build a rudimentary "dust and fume hood" (although it doesn't work for fumes) out of a box and a vacuum. I've seen this used at small businesses to control dust. Just pop the computer in the box, turn on the vacuum, and blow away. For cleaning effectiveness, once you've used a tank compressor you'll never want anything else. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 23 18:55:07 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:55:07 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes Message-ID: > Al, this is tall Dave I'm talking about. I can take care of them for him. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue May 23 19:00:52 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 20:00:52 -0400 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 23 May 2006 19:07:30 EDT." <200605232307.k4NN7UhO028259@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200605240000.k4O00qsb026375@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dennis Boone wrote: > >If he wants to do it himself, SCSI 9-track drives (e.g. DEC TSZ07 >units, or Overland hardware) do trade on eBay. Having read a few hundred old tapes, I would not recommend the TSZ07. It's a nice drive, easy to clean, works well with scsi, etc... but it's not very good with older tapes. Works fine with new tapes. The tape path puts a lot of tension on the tape over the heads and it will shut down easily. I don't have any experience with overland drives. I recently got a "Sun badged HP 88780". This drive is *much* better. It seems to be easier on the tapes and much more robust in the face of problems. I've had very good luck reading old tapes with it. It's easy to clean and service and the scsi works well. There's another discussion about tape baking which should be inserted here but I believe it's in the archives (as long as you search between 11pm - 2pm :-) -brad From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 23 19:36:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:36:40 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605240000.k4O00qsb026375@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200605240000.k4O00qsb026375@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200605231736400505.4E29E27F@10.0.0.252> On 5/23/2006 at 8:00 PM Brad Parker wrote: >I don't have any experience with overland drives. The problem with a lot of old Overland drives is that they're basically plastic wonders, where many of the heavy-duty units have at least some part of the chassis that's diecast. Normally, this wouldn't be too awful, but the plastic used on the Overland seems to age badly and break easily. I've had two not survive eBay shipping--no external signs of damage on units packed in styrofoam blocks, but one broken to smithereens and the other badly damaged (but repairable). Some of the Overlands will talk to a PC parallel port, however. If you need SCSI, one of the HP's or Ciphers are pretty good--and many of the HP's can tackle 800 bpi tapes, in addition to the 1600 and 6250 densitites But in the sub-200 lb. category, if you're willing to go with a Pertec interface, the Fujitsu open-reel drives are hard to beat for being nearly indestructible. Sun used them extensively. I understand that there existed a SCSI interface card for the Fuji M2444, but I've never seen one, nor heard of anyone actually using one. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 23 19:48:52 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:48:52 -0500 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060523173343.0c833328@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060523173343.0c833328@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060523194520.054a7618@mail> At 05:39 PM 5/23/2006, Tom Peters wrote: >Dave R from UWM (Milwaukee) asked me if I knew how to read his old 9-track tapes. I told him one of the best places to ask was here. So I'm asking. Al, this is tall Dave I'm talking about. I recently bought an M4 9914, an Overland Data 5622, and an HP 88780 in the hopes that one would work. None do, so far. I've sent three emails to http://www.comco-inc.com/ in the hope of getting one of them fixed. Maybe the Overland, because it'll do 800. However, Comco doesn't seem to like to answer email so I may be forced to pick up the phone. I go way back with Dave Rasmussen and am not too far from him. - John From sethm at loomcom.com Tue May 23 20:04:08 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:04:08 -0700 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent wanted, trade available Message-ID: <74565B9A-BE6F-4E52-899C-C7C4FC0B65EB@loomcom.com> Hi folks, I've been hunting high and low for a DECwriter Correspondent (LA12). These are smallish dot matrix printing terminals made by DEC in the mid 80s, designed to be portable. They take 9.5" x 11" pin-feed paper. Some models have acoustic couplers on the side. I'm interested in any working model. I have a Teletype Model 43 KSR I'd be very happy to trade for one. This is also a dot matrix printing terminal, upper and lower case, and takes 12" x 8.5" pin-feed paper. It's in good working condition. For information on the Teletype 43, see and . Anyone have a DECwriter Correspondent they'd be willing to trade or sell? If so please let me know! -Seth Santa clara, CA From staylor at mrynet.com Tue May 23 22:01:54 2006 From: staylor at mrynet.com (User Staylor) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:01:54 -0500 Subject: Reading old tapes Message-ID: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> Al Kossow aek at bitsavers.org wrote on Tue May 23 18:55:07 CDT 2006: >> Al, this is tall Dave I'm talking about. > > I can take care of them for him. Someone might consider putting a list up somewhere of people willing/able to read old media, including info on fees, capabilities and location. I can read and write 9-track 800/1600/6250 (multiple drives to verify on) all soft-sectored floppies, 3480, CompacTapes (TK50 and TK70), QIC 24/60/120/150/250/525/1.35/2000, DLT III/IIIxt/IV, Exabytes and DDS1/2/4. I also have a 9-track tape cleaning machine, but I don't attempt the "baking" tricks--if the tape sticks after cleaning, I don't attempt any further. I do this for free for hobbyists and occasional few tapes from desperate small businesses; not particularly interested in business-level conversions. I'm located in Minneapolis; turnaround is pretty much immediate, but return shipping and the cost of my surplus media (if used) should be prepaid (paypal works for me too) if the media is wanted back. Otherwise I can make the imaging available over the 'net. I can provide CPTP/TAP, SIMH, E11, TPC imaged tapes; teledisk, imagedisk or raw/dsk files for floppies; straight disk dumps for any kind of SCSI or IDE drive. I also specialize in hard-disk Morrow Micro Decision and Kaypro machines. Please consider this an offering of my services moving forward. Hobbyists needing help in media conversion to electronic form can contact me at staylor at smedley DoT mrynet DoT com Best regards, -scott From recycler at swbell.net Tue May 23 22:07:43 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:07:43 -0500 Subject: FA UNIVAC plasma display serial #1 Message-ID: <4473CDFF.9070504@swbell.net> almost free.. anyone still collect univac? anyway here it is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8815960416 Hope someone can give it a good home, it must exit the lab along with the military computer monitor here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8816479230 I hate getting rid of these things, maybe doing it on the cheap will encourage collectors. If I had $1 for every time I rented a truck and drove 200 miles for a VAX 6500.. well. I'd still be out alot of $ I suppose. PJ From geneb at simpits.com Tue May 23 22:17:31 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 20:17:31 -0700 Subject: Kaypro docs... In-Reply-To: <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <4473D04B.5010303@simpits.com> I just posted both PDF and TIF scans (600dpi) of my Kaypro Technical Manual to the retroarchive site (http://www.retroarchive.org). I've never seen this available before so I figured there would be some need for it. I've now got access to a duplexing sheet fed scanner that can only be described as the Cat's Ass. :) In the coming days I'll be scanning some CP/M 68k docs as well as all my Ampro Littleboard docs. From there I'll progress into my complete (I think) set of the Staunch 8/89'er and the Heatkit ROM listings. From there I'll scan anything I can fit into the hopper. *grin* The TIF images are clean enough for OCR work if anyone is interested in doing that. The CP/M 68k docs should have been done (literally) years ago, but for one lame ass excuse or another, it never got done. Those should be posted by tomorrow. g. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 23 23:57:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 21:57:10 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> Message-ID: <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> On 5/23/2006 at 10:01 PM staylor at mrynet.com wrote: >all soft-sectored floppies, Scott, that's a pretty tall claim! How are you at Durango 850 100 tpi GCR floppies? How about 3.25" Dysan floppies? Cheers, Chuck From useddec at aol.com Wed May 24 00:09:02 2006 From: useddec at aol.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:09:02 -0500 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent wanted, trade available In-Reply-To: <74565B9A-BE6F-4E52-899C-C7C4FC0B65EB@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <000001c67ef0$2cd33d90$4f00a8c0@main> Which model do you want? Paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Seth Morabito Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DECwriter Correspondent wanted, trade available Hi folks, I've been hunting high and low for a DECwriter Correspondent (LA12). These are smallish dot matrix printing terminals made by DEC in the mid 80s, designed to be portable. They take 9.5" x 11" pin-feed paper. Some models have acoustic couplers on the side. I'm interested in any working model. I have a Teletype Model 43 KSR I'd be very happy to trade for one. This is also a dot matrix printing terminal, upper and lower case, and takes 12" x 8.5" pin-feed paper. It's in good working condition. For information on the Teletype 43, see and . Anyone have a DECwriter Correspondent they'd be willing to trade or sell? If so please let me know! -Seth Santa clara, CA From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed May 24 00:28:00 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:28:00 -0700 Subject: Kaypro docs... In-Reply-To: <4473D04B.5010303@simpits.com> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <4473D04B.5010303@simpits.com> Message-ID: <200605232228.00284.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 23 May 2006 20:17, Gene Buckle wrote: > I just posted both PDF and TIF scans (600dpi) of my Kaypro Technical > Manual to the retroarchive site (http://www.retroarchive.org). I've > never seen this available before so I figured there would be some need > for it. Thanks! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From sethm at loomcom.com Wed May 24 00:31:07 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:31:07 -0700 Subject: DECwriter Correspondent wanted, trade available In-Reply-To: <000001c67ef0$2cd33d90$4f00a8c0@main> References: <000001c67ef0$2cd33d90$4f00a8c0@main> Message-ID: On May 23, 2006, at 10:09 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Which model do you want? I'm not particular :) The AB, CB, or DB, all would be fine. While the acoustic coupler and built in modem of the AB and CB would be nice, I really don't have a need for them, and probably the DB would be more in line with the value of a Teletype 43 KSR if someone wanted to trade. -Seth From Christian.Groessler at aladdin.de Mon May 22 06:39:28 2006 From: Christian.Groessler at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:39:28 +0200 Subject: IBM Professional Graphics Adapter Message-ID: <97B2CC543ADDA041B51BCD941430CE08606F17@exmuc101.eAladdin.org> Hi, I have programming documentation for the PGA. I will have to scan it some time... regards, chris > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Montag, 8. Mai 2006 23:33 > To: talk > Subject: IBM Professional Graphics Adapter > > I just received the first part of a shipment which > includes an IBM 5175 monitor. The PGA card and > possibly the AT box it resides in is on it's way. I > plugged the monitor into my Vermont Microsystems card > (essentially a PGA clone), and it worked like a charm. > Have yet to plug the monitor into a VGA card and > investigate that noise (the PGA card possibly has some > funky syncing scheme, like combined sync or > sync-on-green). But regardless, I'm desirous of docs > for these babies, technical or otherwise. Programming > infor-mation is of the utmost importance. Can anyone > help? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ********************************************************************************************** The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to anyone or make copies. ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** *********************************************************************************************** From kelly at catcorner.org Mon May 22 09:07:17 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:07:17 -0400 Subject: trs-80 model 4p saved...but have no s/w Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E373EC@MEOW.catcorner.org> > I do not have a working 5.25 disk drive > other than the ones in this trs-80. How can I obtain some disks to > boot and test this system? Go to www.trs-80.com See if Ira will creat disks for you. If not, let me know which ones you need (based on the searchable list at Ira's site). I can make real disks from the images and mail them to you. You would have to cover postage and a small amount for each disk. I'm don't make a living doing this, but I can write just about any soft sectored format to 5.25, 3.5 and 8" media. I have not tested any DS/QD media in real life, but I know I can write it. All I want to be able to do is replace any disks I use. Kelly From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 22 19:26:17 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > period). But who the heck made any serious use of > ROM > > based BASIC in the *pseudo* 16 bit era and beyond? > > Depends on what you mean by 'serious use', but I was > certainly glad of > ROM basic when my 5160 XT wouldn't boot. I used it > to write values to > output ports on the disk controller card while > probing signals with a > logic probe. Found a defective inverter chip very > quickly. I wasn't suggesting it didn't have any uses. I for one always looked fondly upon rom based languages. I was just curious if, besides an example like you cited, was anything substantive ever done with them. The Vesta OEM-188 board, aka the Radio Electronics RE Robot brain/board thing, has not only BASIC, but FORTH built in. My Canon Cat also has a FORTH interpreter. Who used them? And for what? The BASICs were built into IBM pc's until possibly 1990 or so. One might get the impression that they were there for a reason. Years ago, while they still had a production facility on Long Island, I had heard that Symbol made use of QBasic (probably because they were thrifty). No, no longer a rom based implementation, but came with it for nothing. > Sure a machine code monitor would have been even > nicer, but... Agreed. One of the dandiest features of puters like the C64. But come to think of it maybe that was on a separate cartridge. It's been a while... > -tony > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rcini at optonline.net Mon May 22 20:13:42 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 21:13:42 -0400 Subject: New Altair32 Emulator Release/New Web site Message-ID: <003601c67e06$22385ae0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: Over the weekend I finalized the latest release of the Altair32 Emulator. This latest version - two years in development - wraps-up a string of changes to the emulation and adds some new emulated hardware: a Z80 CPU core, emulation of the Cromemco Dazzler, and, the best of all, support for the Altair32 Front Panel (another project of mine). The Altair32 Front Panel was introduced at VCFe two weeks ago and is a USB-based peripheral for the PC that enables one to interact with the Emulator as if at a real Altair. The Front Panel is a full-sized replica of the original Altair 8800 front panel. The dress panel I created can even be used as a replacement for a real 8800. The Front Panel should be ready for sale in the next 60 days after performing some last-minute optimizations to reduce manufacturing costs. As part of this, I have launched a new Web site specifically for the Altair32: http://www.altair32.com which also has a support bulletin board. In the Announcements section of the BBS, there is a short survey to gauge interest in the front panel. Of course, feel free to send me any questions. The picture on the index page of the site is the actual front panel (with the exception of the name plate strip, which I haven't made yet). Enjoy the emulator. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 23 01:52:38 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 07:52:38 +0100 Subject: Philips LDB4401 cassette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1148367158.8615.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 19:12 -0700, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I have some ceritfied digital cassettes and they don't work for audio. > I suspect the material has a lot more hysteresus than normal tape. > He could have these but they are not Philps cassettes. I can use > them because my needs for computer cassettes is all audio grade tapes. > Dwight In what way doesn't it work? No sound? Very distorted sound? Perhaps more importantly, does it sound good? Gordon (always looking for new ways to mangle samples) From bv at norbionics.com Tue May 23 04:08:58 2006 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:08:58 +0200 Subject: ISA Video Capture In-Reply-To: <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> References: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> <200605112306.58498.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005c01c6757b$41285fb0$8c5c1941@game> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2006 06:19:25 +0200, Teo Zenios wrote: ,,, > > If anybody else is into vintage analog video capture let me know, I > mostly > deal with PC and 68K Macs (10 years old or older to be ontopic). > I would not really say "into" as I do not have much time to spend on old computers right now, but I have an old ATI ISA-bus video capture card (which I bought new when that kind of device was extremely uncommon). It makes an analogue capture to BBD memory, andcan digitize the previous frame while you capture the new one. Resolution is 512x512 in rather blatant disregard of TV standards, but getting a video capture card for 2000 dollars 15 years ago was a really good deal. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From bv at norbionics.com Tue May 23 04:29:38 2006 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:29:38 +0200 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2006 00:03:28 +0200, Tony Duell wrote: >> period). But who the heck made any serious use of ROM >> based BASIC in the *pseudo* 16 bit era and beyond? > > Depends on what you mean by 'serious use', but I was certainly glad of > ROM basic when my 5160 XT wouldn't boot. I used it to write values to > output ports on the disk controller card while probing signals with a > logic probe. Found a defective inverter chip very quickly. > A rather serious use was that the COBOL compiler used the IBM BASIC to perform string handling and decimal arithmetic. Maybe not what most users did, but there were a substantial number of aplications made with that compiler. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From ed_sipols at goodyear.com Tue May 23 08:15:07 2006 From: ed_sipols at goodyear.com (ed_sipols at goodyear.com) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 08:15:07 -0500 Subject: Data I/O Series 22 EPROM Programmer help Message-ID: I have acquired an old DATA I/O series 22 porm programmer. I have some Signetics N82S141F chips that will not read at the recommended family and pinout codes of 10/15. In fact, the programmer will not even allow me to enter the 10 as the family. Help???!!!! Ed From Zevik.Ben-Ephraim at ecitele.com Tue May 23 09:19:43 2006 From: Zevik.Ben-Ephraim at ecitele.com (Zevik.Ben-Ephraim at ecitele.com) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:19:43 +0300 Subject: MVME Docs/Data Needed Message-ID: Hello, I have an old system using this card with VMEexec OS. The disk with the backup files crashed and I need the software drivers or at least file M334Statics.H or M333statics.h can you help me or give me a pointer to someone who can ? thanks, Zevik Ben-Ephraim ECI Telecom Ltd. Tel: 972-3-9287501 P.O Box 448 Fax: 972-3-9266200 Petach Tikva 49105 mobile: 972-54-5787501 Israel Email: zevik at ecitele.com From kossow at computerhistory.org Tue May 23 18:53:19 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:53:19 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes Message-ID: > Al, this is tall Dave I'm talking about. I can take care of them for him. From nico at farumdata.dk Wed May 24 00:51:28 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 07:51:28 +0200 Subject: Reading old tapes References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> Message-ID: <000801c67ef6$198f15a0$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "User Staylor" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:01 AM Subject: Reading old tapes > Al Kossow aek at bitsavers.org wrote on Tue May 23 18:55:07 CDT 2006: > > >> Al, this is tall Dave I'm talking about. > > > > I can take care of them for him. > > Someone might consider putting a list up somewhere of people willing/able > to read old media, including info on fees, capabilities and location. > I've offered the same service some time in the past, but I can't remember any reactions. I am located in Denmark. Also free/minimal charge for hobbyists, but fees for commercial users. As the capabilities change regularly (new drives, old drives scrapped / ruined, etc), it could be relevant with a list containing just the name, location, and fees (where relevant). I would be happy to add a special page to my website to give that info. The page could also contain links to the "supplier"s website, where details could be found on which things he/she is able to handle. I'll start the page next week Nico From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 24 01:03:42 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:03:42 +1200 Subject: ROM-based languages/tools (was Re: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1) Message-ID: On 5/23/06, Chris M wrote: > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Sure a machine code monitor would have been even > > nicer, but... > > Agreed. One of the dandiest features of puters like > the C64. But come to think of it maybe that was on a > separate cartridge. It's been a while... You must have had it on a cartridge. The TIM monitor _did_ come in ROM on the BASIC 2 and BASIC 4 PETs - I was so happy when I discovered it on my 2001-32K (sold as a 3032 in Europe) - the instructions I had included loading TIM off of tape, but they were the instructions for BASIC 1 (8K static) PETs. I wrote a Scott Adams game engine using TIM - I did all the work on paper and typed it all in, one subroutine at a time, in hex. Eventually, I got a nicer ML monitor with a line-at-a-time assembler/disassembler. My productivity soared! I _wish_ the C-64 had come with a monitor, with or without an assembler/disassembler. It was annoying to have stuff crash to the blue screen when I forgot to load the monitor (or there wasn't room). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 01:12:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 23:12:29 -0700 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> On 5/22/2006 at 5:26 PM Chris M wrote: > The BASICs were built >into IBM pc's until possibly 1990 or so. One might get >the impression that they were there for a reason. Uh, to make PC-DOS BASICA work? Well, I suppose the original intention was to make the diskless PC work--you know, with the cassette tape interface. After that, who knows? I still use GWBASIC on my Windoze system here. Cheers, Chuck From staylor at mrynet.com Wed May 24 01:12:57 2006 From: staylor at mrynet.com (User Staylor) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 01:12:57 -0500 Subject: Reading old tapes Message-ID: <200605240612.k4O6CvaS012807@mrynet.com> Chuck Guzis cclist at sydex.com wrote on Tue May 23 23:57:10 CDT 2006: > On 5/23/2006 at 10:01 PM staylor at mrynet.com wrote: > > >all soft-sectored floppies, > > Scott, that's a pretty tall claim! How are you at Durango 850 100 tpi GCR > floppies? How about 3.25" Dysan floppies? > > Cheers, > Chuck Hey Chuck, Valid points. I've never been able to obtain 3.25" floppies, so I can't validate that I can make my one drive do anything--and I certainly did not think of considering the media smaller than 3.5". Sorry for disregarding all you Amstrad fans, as I thought there was a specific hobbybase concern there already. I do have 100 tpi drives (teacs), but I've never heard of them recorded with GCR. You certainly will have more experience with those obscure formats for sure. No doubt you can come up with dozens I'll never encounter or even be able to verify existence of in my lifetime. Suffice it that I may disappoint if called upon for any of those one-shot proprietary media formats :-D Shall we instead see what practical potential for discount arises? Cheers :) -scott From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed May 24 01:22:37 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 23:22:37 -0700 Subject: Data I/O Series 22 EPROM Programmer help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4473FBAD.8080005@msm.umr.edu> ed_sipols at goodyear.com wrote: >I have acquired an old DATA I/O series 22 porm programmer. I have some >Signetics N82S141F chips that will not read at the recommended family and >pinout codes of 10/15. In fact, the programmer will not even allow me to >enter the 10 as the family. Help???!!!! Ed > > > > if you have the data I/O poster or docs you are taking the data from, you may not have the same rom revision in your programmer. I don't recall how to verify what matched what anymore, but where I was at one time had a Data I/O subscription, and got quarterly updates. A lot of parts could be supported w/o adapter or base unit rom updates, but eventually we'd get parts on the newer posters that would not work till we finally did the update of the base unit. This still applies even when you have a model that has a bunch of sockets, since they just combined the equivlent to a unipack or multi headed unit into a more compact model but used the same roms internally. BTW I am speaking of the 29A 29B units, not the eprom units. Those were more specialized to doing eproms, and did not do bipolar parts, and also could program a lot of parts in parallel. The Eprom units, near as I could tell used a different code for setting up the programmer. I don't know of any resource that details what units were capable of what to direct you to, sad to say. Data I/O was never too forthcomming about the information even when we paid for it, and for a long time there was not alternative. Sort of like Microsoft is now. Anyone would use an alternative if they could, assuming that they are not tied to Microsoft for reasons not relevent to this list. I know a lot of people in the late 70's and 80's that would have used another programmer, but Data I/O had insides at the manufacturers that other prom programmer makers could not equal. I was amazed to find out that finally there were parts that were totally unwarranted by their manufacturers if other than Data I/O programmed them. We used different parts in that case, needless to say. sorry if ths didn t answer your question, hope it helped though. Jim From frustum at pacbell.net Wed May 24 01:36:02 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 01:36:02 -0500 Subject: Kaypro docs... In-Reply-To: <4473D04B.5010303@simpits.com> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <4473D04B.5010303@simpits.com> Message-ID: <4473FED2.3060304@pacbell.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > I just posted both PDF and TIF scans (600dpi) of my Kaypro Technical > Manual to the retroarchive site (http://www.retroarchive.org). I've > never seen this available before so I figured there would be some need > for it. Not to discourage you, the world could use more people willing to scan and archive what they have, but http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers/pdf/kaypro/ has a timestamp of "09-Dec-1999 15:10". > I've now got access to a duplexing sheet fed scanner that can only be > described as the Cat's Ass. :) In the coming days I'll be scanning some > CP/M 68k docs as well as all my Ampro Littleboard docs. I scanned my ampro littleboard docs, but then I removed them when I found they were already online. Howard Harte has some stuff here: http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Ampro/ Check and scan what he doesn't already have. Of course, if you are so inclined, scan everything you have. But if you are going to triage, scan things that aren't online. > From there > I'll progress into my complete (I think) set of the Staunch 8/89'er and > the Heatkit ROM listings. From there I'll scan anything I can fit into > the hopper. *grin* H89 ROM listings are already online, but they are behind a password at http://www.sebhc.org/. Having copies freely available would benefit more people. I have used a nice high speed copier/scanner at work that can spit out tif files or ready-to-go pdf files. There is a word of caution though. The machine is set up to have a very high quality dithering algorithm in order to get the visually most appealing results. This is different than the simple threshold quantifier that you get from most scanners when you ask for B&W scans. When you zoom in close to the text, the edges will have a feathered appearance as the copier is trying to approximate partial pixel coverage. It looks good, but hurts compression and doesn't do anything helpful for OCR. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 01:55:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 23:55:49 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605240612.k4O6CvaS012807@mrynet.com> References: <200605240612.k4O6CvaS012807@mrynet.com> Message-ID: <200605232355490512.4F850272@10.0.0.252> On 5/24/2006 at 1:12 AM staylor at mrynet.com wrote: >Suffice it that I may disappoint if called upon for any of those one-shot >proprietary media formats :-D > >Shall we instead see what practical potential for discount arises? Good luck, Scott! I think that there's probably not too much of a market for common soft-sectored formats. At least that's been my experience. It's a lot of fun figuring out those "one shot" formats--and there are more of them than you'd think. Sometimes, even the "common" ones like 240K Brother 3.5" diskettes, the encoding can be pretty challenging (used on a lot of Brother WP equipment). It took poking around in a Brother ROM to figure that one out. Even when you manage to figure out how to retrieve the raw data, figuring out how things are allocated and stored (if not one of the common operating systems) can get to be pretty interesting. One format that I kept coming back to for almost 10 years was the DECMate WPS I format. Bits and pieces were no problem, but how to put the whole thing together didn't happen until I found a source listing of the WPS software and worked my way throught it. The funny thing is that after I worked out all of the nuances and wrote a WPS I-to-HTML converter, the customer decided that he didn't need the information after all. Such is life. My current project is some Harris Lanier/AES 32-hard-sector 8" floppies that have spent the last 30 years in a closet. I hope they're ASCII-like. Cheers, Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Wed May 24 02:06:49 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:06:49 +0200 Subject: [ZS1] Re: Reading old tapes References: <200605240612.k4O6CvaS012807@mrynet.com> <200605232355490512.4F850272@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <000601c67f00$a0b1c410$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Chuck Guzis" > > My current project is some Harris Lanier/AES 32-hard-sector 8" floppies > that have spent the last 30 years in a closet. I hope they're ASCII-like. > > Take a look at http://www.intermedia.uk.com/disklist.htm I might be able to read them, if you hit the wall Nico From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 02:07:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:07:13 -0700 Subject: New Altair32 Emulator Release/New Web site In-Reply-To: <003601c67e06$22385ae0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <003601c67e06$22385ae0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200605240007130736.4F8F7332@10.0.0.252> Rich, it's starting to look really nice! One small nit to pick on your web page, however is that you say: "The original front panel from MITS was a screen printed steel sheet of about the same depth." Not on mine (1975). I grabbed one of the big neodynium magnets that I use with a 2" ball bearing to roll dents out of tuba sections with and checked the panel with it--nothing. It's aluminum on the original, too. Had it been steel, I'd likely still be down in my shop trying to pry the darned magnet off the panel. How can I get one of the little vinyl name strips that you use instead of the aluminum original? The strip on my system fell off (dried adhesive) a long time ago and has been lost. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 02:09:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:09:09 -0700 Subject: Data I/O Series 22 EPROM Programmer help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605240009090433.4F913723@10.0.0.252> On 5/23/2006 at 8:15 AM ed_sipols at goodyear.com wrote: "I have acquired an old DATA I/O series 22 porm programmer." Programming porm is one of the biggest moneymakers on the web, I understand! :) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 02:36:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:36:32 -0700 Subject: [ZS1] Re: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <000601c67f00$a0b1c410$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200605240612.k4O6CvaS012807@mrynet.com> <200605232355490512.4F850272@10.0.0.252> <000601c67f00$a0b1c410$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200605240036320375.4FAA48E1@10.0.0.252> On 5/24/2006 at 9:06 AM Nico de Jong wrote: >Take a look at http://www.intermedia.uk.com/disklist.htm >I might be able to read them, if you hit the wall Nico, what is "Durango hard" that I see listed? Clearly not hard-sectored, since Durango never used those. Hard disk maybe? Which one? There were 5.25" internal and external units, as well as an external 14" box (used a variant of GPIB). Cheers, Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Wed May 24 02:56:08 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:56:08 +0200 Subject: [ZS1] Re: Reading old tapes References: <200605240612.k4O6CvaS012807@mrynet.com><200605232355490512.4F850272@10.0.0.252><000601c67f00$a0b1c410$2101a8c0@finans> <200605240036320375.4FAA48E1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <000e01c67f07$84890a30$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [ZS1] Re: Reading old tapes > On 5/24/2006 at 9:06 AM Nico de Jong wrote: > > >Take a look at http://www.intermedia.uk.com/disklist.htm > >I might be able to read them, if you hit the wall > > Nico, what is "Durango hard" that I see listed? Clearly not hard-sectored, > since Durango never used those. Hard disk maybe? Which one? There were > 5.25" internal and external units, as well as an external 14" box (used a > variant of GPIB). > I suggest you contact Michael Cotgrove ( mscotgrove at aol dot com ). He was the programmer; I'm just a humble user of his software. Nico From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 24 08:30:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 14:30:15 +0100 Subject: 9-track tape drive to borrow? (Kent, UK) Message-ID: <44745FE7.5010107@yahoo.co.uk> Hi all, One of the guys working on restoring the EMAS OS for ICL mainframes as part of the Edinburgh computer history project asked me yesterday if we knew of anyone with a 9-track SCSI tape drive that he could borrow in order to read old OS tapes. Does anyone on the list based in the Kent area have one that he may be able to borrow or access? I get the impression he does have occasional access to a drive somewhere further afield, but being able to hook something directly up to his PC (or at least minimise travel) would greatly aid the restoration process. We're probably going to run EMAS on our ICL 2966 mainframe if the Edinburgh guys can get a working install for that platform together. We *may* have a drive that we could loan out, but I thought I'd ask in case someone closer to the guy has one sitting idle. See http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/EMAS for a bit of EMAS history, and http://pink-mouse-productions.com/icl/bob.htm for Bob's own pages (scroll down for a nice photo of the sort of thing we hope to recreate at Bletchley) cheers Jules From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Wed May 24 08:59:49 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:59:49 +0200 Subject: ROM-based languages/tools (was Re: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447466D5.7010400@ais.fraunhofer.de> Ethan Dicks schrieb: > On 5/23/06, Chris M wrote: >> --- Tony Duell wrote: >> > Sure a machine code monitor would have been even >> > nicer, but... >> >> Agreed. One of the dandiest features of puters like >> the C64. But come to think of it maybe that was on a >> separate cartridge. It's been a while... > > You must have had it on a cartridge. The TIM monitor _did_ come in > ROM on the BASIC 2 and BASIC 4 PETs - I was so happy when I discovered > it on my 2001-32K (sold as a 3032 in Europe) - the instructions I had > included loading TIM off of tape, but they were the instructions for > BASIC 1 (8K static) PETs. Even more interesting, I found that several software on tape for the PET 8K had a TIM prepended. I remember my surprise when I found that Peter Jennings' Microchess for the PET had some obscure SYS call. Apparently, this was machine code, but what was there behind theBASIC SYS call? So I peeked at the addresses after the BASIC code to find a jump instruction leading to about 0x800, but what was it in between? There was some fragment of pulling registers with PLA and PLP into some zero page memory, just looking like an interrupt service routine (IIRC, it was the single step BRK vector, actually). I managed to replace the three bytes with what I thought to be required there, something like CLD, CLI, PLP or alike, and entered RUN - and found myself in a working complete TIM monitor. Using itself to adjust its memory boundaries and storing itself on a tape, I got a monitor program for free. > > I wrote a Scott Adams game engine using TIM - I did all the work on > paper and typed it all > in, one subroutine at a time, in hex. Eventually, I got a nicer ML > monitor with a line-at-a-time assembler/disassembler. My productivity > soared! > > I _wish_ the C-64 had come with a monitor, with or without an > assembler/disassembler. It was annoying to have stuff crash to the > blue screen when I forgot to load the monitor (or there wasn't room). A common location for monitors surviving a reset (sure one has added a RESET button to the user port or the serial IEC port) was of course 0xc000. This helped a lot when hacking machine code on the C64. TIM relocated to 49152 was rather common for work then. -- Holger Veit From kelly at catcorner.org Wed May 24 09:10:14 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 10:10:14 -0400 Subject: Pascal-2 for Tandy Xenix Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E373FB@MEOW.catcorner.org> I'm trying to find someone with a copy of the Pascal-2 for the Tandy 6000 Xenix. It was done by Oregon Software I believe. Anyone out there able to make an image of it, or are willing to part with theirs? I have a disk of it here, but it is not readable. How about any other software for the Model II/12/16/6000 lines? Thanks, Kelly From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 24 10:49:54 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 10:49:54 Subject: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1 In-Reply-To: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060524104954.0f87e940@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:26 PM 5/22/06 -0700, you wrote: > > >--- Tony Duell wrote: > >> > period). But who the heck made any serious use of >> ROM >> > based BASIC in the *pseudo* 16 bit era and beyond? >> >> Depends on what you mean by 'serious use', but I was >> certainly glad of >> ROM basic when my 5160 XT wouldn't boot. I used it >> to write values to >> output ports on the disk controller card while >> probing signals with a >> logic probe. Found a defective inverter chip very >> quickly. > > I wasn't suggesting it didn't have any uses. I for >one always looked fondly upon rom based languages. I >was just curious if, besides an example like you >cited, was anything substantive ever done with them. >The Vesta OEM-188 board, aka the Radio Electronics RE >Robot brain/board thing, has not only BASIC, but FORTH >built in. My Canon Cat also has a FORTH interpreter. >Who used them? And for what? Just FWIW the IBM APL used the builtin ROM BASIC and it wouldn't run on a machine without it. AFIK none of the other IBM PC programming langauses used it Joe The BASICs were built >into IBM pc's until possibly 1990 or so. One might get >the impression that they were there for a reason. >Years ago, while they still had a production facility >on Long Island, I had heard that Symbol made use of >QBasic (probably because they were thrifty). No, no >longer a rom based implementation, but came with it >for nothing. > >> Sure a machine code monitor would have been even >> nicer, but... > > Agreed. One of the dandiest features of puters like >the C64. But come to think of it maybe that was on a >separate cartridge. It's been a while... > >> -tony >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 24 10:37:32 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 10:37:32 Subject: (Off-topic ?) Motorola HDS-200/Hitachi Development System (HAL-SJ ?) In-Reply-To: <20060523164313.90655.qmail@web30613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060524103732.0f8779c4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dave, I used to have some the stuff for the Motorola HDS-200. I didn't have docs for it so I've not sure how much of the system was there but I'm fairly sure that it wasn't complete. I don't know if I still have any of it or not. I THINK I gave it all to Mike Haas. I did have one brochure on the systems but I loaned it to a surplus dealer in Melbourne and never got it back. If you NEED it I can contact them and see if it's still around. It wasn't particularly informative so I doubt it would be of much help but it's the only docs for this stuff that I've ever seen. Joe At 09:43 AM 5/23/06 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone have knowledge of Motorola HDS-200 >Hardware Development Systems ? I brought one home from >Dayton bundled with a pair of HP64000 mainframes, >manuals and emulation pods. > >The HDS-200 has a base unit, cables, emulation pods >(68HC05 variants) and program cartridges. I am not >sure whether I will do anything with it yet - just >curious to know about these systems and their >capabilities. > >Also in the carton: an (apparently unused) Hitachi >development system of some sort, with a label marked >'HAL-SJ' and two boards marked H31MIX3. I'm guessing >it's a 6301 or 6303 development system. > >Anyone with embedded systems or uP system development >knowledge care to comment ? > >-Dave > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 24 10:47:05 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 10:47:05 Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060524104705.0eefc352@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just got a VERY interesting phone call from the US Department Of Defense Cybercrimes division. I don't think it would be prudent to disclose the details but this MAY turn out to be VERY important. They have several HP 9845 tapes that they need to read. Can anyone help? Yes I know all the problems about the HP tapes and tape drives. I'm the one that found most of them so let's not rehash that. What I'm looking for is a working HP 9845 with a working tape drive preferably in the Washington DC area. Also information about linking a 9845 to a PC or other modernish computer so that any readable data can be transferred to a modern format. I know there's been some discussion about trying to read HP tapes on other devices. Has anyone tried to do that yet? I have several 9845s but I haven't fired up any of them in a couple of years and I know none of them have a working tape drive. I have rebuilt the drives on other HP but never bothered to in the 9845s. Joe From allain at panix.com Wed May 24 10:15:59 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:15:59 -0400 Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? References: <3.0.6.16.20060524104705.0eefc352@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <004f01c67f44$f716ad40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I used to read a ton of different/undocumented/proprietary/closed format tapes on one of G.E.'s suitably equipped VAX'es. Many Many times some closed format would be an undocumented open one or at least an easily decipherable one. Maybe Sellam Ismail with his FutureKeep system should keep a table of manufacturer specific product names mapped to general industry names. > They have several HP 9845 tapes that they need to read. I don't know this format personally but wouldn't be surprised if I or another lister could read it anyway, for the reason mentioned above. John A. *"VAX'en" in modern retro-lingo From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 24 11:53:41 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:53:41 -0700 Subject: Kaypro docs... Message-ID: > I just posted both PDF and TIF scans (600dpi) of my Kaypro Technical > Manual to the retroarchive site (http://www.retroarchive.org). I've > never seen this available before so I figured there would be some need > for it. Not to discourage you, the world could use more people willing to scan and archive what they have, but == His version is for two later revs. It appears you missed chapter 16, though. From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed May 24 12:20:37 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 13:20:37 -0400 Subject: Kaypro docs... In-Reply-To: <4473D04B.5010303@simpits.com> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <4473D04B.5010303@simpits.com> Message-ID: <200605241320.37090.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 23 May 2006 11:17 pm, Gene Buckle wrote: > I just posted both PDF and TIF scans (600dpi) of my Kaypro Technical > Manual to the retroarchive site (http://www.retroarchive.org). I've > never seen this available before so I figured there would be some need > for it. Do you have the schematics for the power supplies used in their machines? I have some, three or four versions by different mfrs. if I'm remembering right, if needed. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed May 24 12:25:18 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:25:18 +0100 Subject: 9-track tape drive to borrow? (Kent, UK) In-Reply-To: <44745FE7.5010107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <000401c67f57$072deb50$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Not Kent, but just the other side of the river near Southend. I have a suitable drive (well, I hope it's OK - I don't think I've switched it on this year.) Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 24 May 2006 14:30 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: 9-track tape drive to borrow? (Kent, UK) > > > Hi all, > > One of the guys working on restoring the EMAS OS for ICL > mainframes as part of > the Edinburgh computer history project asked me yesterday if we > knew of anyone > with a 9-track SCSI tape drive that he could borrow in order to > read old OS tapes. > > Does anyone on the list based in the Kent area have one that he > may be able to > borrow or access? I get the impression he does have occasional > access to a > drive somewhere further afield, but being able to hook something > directly up > to his PC (or at least minimise travel) would greatly aid the > restoration process. > > We're probably going to run EMAS on our ICL 2966 mainframe if the > Edinburgh > guys can get a working install for that platform together. We > *may* have a > drive that we could loan out, but I thought I'd ask in case > someone closer to > the guy has one sitting idle. > > See http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/EMAS for a bit of EMAS > history, and > http://pink-mouse-productions.com/icl/bob.htm for Bob's own pages > (scroll down > for a nice photo of the sort of thing we hope to recreate at Bletchley) > > cheers > > Jules > From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 24 12:44:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:44:14 -0600 Subject: Data General Nova Trip In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 23 May 2006 14:01:50 +0800. Message-ID: Wow, what an awesome score you made! I had seen some pictures of the Dasher terminal before, but I didn't know that DG also made an LA-36 type pedestal printer terminal. Now I want one! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 24 12:53:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:53:44 -0600 Subject: Free for the taking HP/Apollo, vt100, wyse, Sun Ultra 5 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 20 May 2006 14:15:23 -0400. <22239BB9-A379-490B-83D2-53E45FDF3450@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: In article <22239BB9-A379-490B-83D2-53E45FDF3450 at mind-to-mind.com>, Gavin Thomas Nicol writes: > I rescued 4 HP/Apollo machines from the dumpster, 2 are PA-RISC and 2 > are 68040 machines.... I can dig up the exact information if anyone > is interested. [...] I've been looking for an Apollo DN10000, it was one of their last machines and supported a 3D accelerated PHIGS implementation (graphics ISO/ANSI API). Can you post back model numbers for the Apollo machines? Pictures would be great too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 24 13:04:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:04:23 -0600 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 23 May 2006 17:36:40 -0700. <200605231736400505.4E29E27F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200605231736400505.4E29E27F at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > [...] Normally, this wouldn't be too awful, but > the plastic used on the Overland seems to age badly and break easily. I've > had two not survive eBay shipping--no external signs of damage on units > packed in styrofoam blocks, but one broken to smithereens and the other > badly damaged (but repairable). I hate it when people send stuff to me packed in styrofoam blocks. Those things do *nothing* to dissipate high g-shocks to the box (like when its tossed off a truck). In this respect I think packing peanuts do a better job because the forces are diffused across many small moving items that compress easily, while the styrofoam blocks are less compressive and tend to transmit the forces directly to the unit. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 13:30:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:30:41 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605241130410812.52012EFF@10.0.0.252> On 5/24/2006 at 12:04 PM Richard wrote: >I hate it when people send stuff to me packed in styrofoam blocks. >Those things do *nothing* to dissipate high g-shocks to the box (like >when its tossed off a truck). In this respect I think packing >peanuts do a better job because the forces are diffused across many >small moving items that compress easily, while the styrofoam blocks >are less compressive and tend to transmit the forces directly to the >unit. OT on the matter of packing: Just as bad are those self-inflating urethane foam packets. Yes, they can secure an item from moving around--if properly placed, which rarely happens. On the other hand, I've used sheets of styrofoam building insulation to pack delicate objects, firmly encasing them and not allowing any motion at all. In my experince, damage most often occurs to an item being shipped when the item can move even a small amount in the container. Sometimes, adequately bracing and securing the item can eliminate the need for any filler material (anyone remember excelsior?) at all. Styrofoam peanuts are okay, as long as they're contained in a bag. I've got equipment that has peanuts lodged in inaccessible (at least without complete disassembly) places. Another disaster are those cornstarch-based peanuts. Fine when dry, but if they get wet, they turn to a sloppy mess and offer no protection at all. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 24 13:42:39 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General Nova Trip In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 24, 2006 11:44:14 AM Message-ID: <200605241842.k4OIgesE008005@onyx.spiritone.com> > I had seen some pictures of the Dasher terminal before, but I didn't > know that DG also made an LA-36 type pedestal printer terminal. > > Now I want one! :-) If they'll take the place of an LA36 I'd be inclined to agree with you, *IF* I had the space, which I don't. Love the look. Zane From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 24 13:35:25 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 19:35:25 +0100 Subject: Free for the taking HP/Apollo, vt100, wyse, Sun Ultra 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4474A76D.3090300@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > I've been looking for an Apollo DN10000, it was one of their last > machines and supported a 3D accelerated PHIGS implementation > (graphics ISO/ANSI API). You and me both! I've never got wind of there being one in the UK at all - and as for finding one with OS media... (I seem to remember the DN10k's used proprietary CPUs*, so stock 68k OS tapes don't work) *were these developed in-house, or sourced from elsewhere? Google doesn't seem to confirm either way, and there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the machines in general. From memory they'd support up to 8 processors. As a big fan of Apollos I'd love to find one too, but don't hold out much hope! No idea why they're so rare and forgotten about; far as I'm aware the architecture and performance were sound enough - possibly just too expensive? cheers Jules From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed May 24 13:59:30 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 14:59:30 -0400 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605241130410812.52012EFF@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060524145707.03c82e28@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: > In my experince, damage most often occurs to an item >being shipped when the item can move even a small amount in the container. At least in my experience, you're better off over-packing [[ non-fragile items at least ]] the peanuts into the package instead of underpacking... >Styrofoam peanuts are okay, as long as they're contained in a bag. Or the item being packed is contained in a bag & taped well, so the peanuts can't get in. I usually wrap items in bubble-wrap & then "float" said item in peanuts. Haven't had any problems yet... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed May 24 13:59:58 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:59:58 +0200 Subject: Data General Nova Trip References: <200605241842.k4OIgesE008005@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2016C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I have a DG Nova 3 with the Dasher D200 terminal and the printer (without keyboard). I have never turned it on, my knowledge of DG is nill. What I have been told is that the terminal "speaks" a protocol, so you can't simply replace it with a VT220. If that's true, I suspect that the printer also needs to be spoken to in the proper protocol. I love to read more about DG, so any list.member who knows more: speak up! I will read with much interest! For completeness: my Nova 3 also has a single 8" floppy drive, and a disk ? la RL02 [sorry, I know I am cursing now, never mention DEC and DG together :-) ]. The disk drive has a fixed disk and a removable disk, much like the RL02 :-). I am told the Nova 3 has memory mngt installed, it has way more than 64 kb memory. On the disks is RTOS (?) and, as I am told, a COBOL compiler. - Henk, PA8PDP ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Zane H. Healy Verzonden: wo 24-05-2006 20:42 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Data General Nova Trip > I had seen some pictures of the Dasher terminal before, but I didn't > know that DG also made an LA-36 type pedestal printer terminal. > > Now I want one! :-) If they'll take the place of an LA36 I'd be inclined to agree with you, *IF* I had the space, which I don't. Love the look. Zane This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 24 14:59:39 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT (though not entirely) - old air compressor maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060524125524.L91971@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 23 May 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > For the air cleaner- a room model might be good because it would (hopefully) keep some dust out of your machines. > For cleaning, you can build a rudimentary "dust and fume hood" (although it doesn't work for fumes) out of a box and a vacuum. > I've seen this used at small businesses to control dust. Just pop the computer in the box, turn on the vacuum, and blow away. > For cleaning effectiveness, once you've used a tank compressor you'll never want anything else. There exist pneumatically (compressor) powered vacuum cleaners. (Mine is 40+ years old, so details may not help) Harborfreight.com carries several benchtop abrasive blasting cabinets. One of those would be trivially easy to convert to a benchtop clean cabinet. (start with a NEW one! and keep it very slightly pressurized with filtered air) drain the condensation from the compressor daily, and add drying filters, but NOT oiler. Watch out for static. From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 24 15:12:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 14:12:33 -0600 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 24 May 2006 11:30:41 -0700. <200605241130410812.52012EFF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200605241130410812.52012EFF at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Just as bad are those self-inflating urethane foam packets. Yes, they can > secure an item from moving around--if properly placed, which rarely > happens. Yeah, I don't trust the average ebay dufus with those. > In my experince, damage most often occurs to an item > being shipped when the item can move even a small amount in the container. While this is true for many things, like most general rules of thumbs there are exceptions. I was shipped a Heathkit Z89 terminal and it was securely fastened and didn't move a bit during packing. However, this just meant that the g-forces were transmitted straight through to the three plastic mounting posts on the CRT in the enclosure resulting in them being sheared off due to the g-force shocks. Had the thing been wrapped in bubble wrap and enclosed in peanuts I doubt this would have happened because the force wouldn't be spiking through the enclosure to the heavy CRT tube. > Styrofoam peanuts are okay, as long as they're contained in a bag. Or if the item is in a bag. > Another disaster are those cornstarch-based peanuts. Fine when dry, but if > they get wet, they turn to a sloppy mess and offer no protection at all. I hadn't thought about that, good point. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 24 15:43:37 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 13:43:37 -0700 Subject: DN10000s Message-ID: > *were these developed in-house, or sourced from elsewhere? It was an Apollo-designed processor. My housemate at the time was at Sun, and there was much concern that it would be a SPARC-killer (Apollo was Sun's major competition up until HP killed off Apollo). > No idea why they're so rare and forgotten about They came out just before HP bought them, who proceeded to bury it in favor of HP PA. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 24 16:01:13 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:01:13 -0400 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 24 May 2006 16:12, Richard wrote: > In article <200605241130410812.52012EFF at 10.0.0.252>, > > In my experince, damage most often occurs to an item > > being shipped when the item can move even a small amount in the > > container. > > While this is true for many things, like most general rules of thumbs > there are exceptions. I was shipped a Heathkit Z89 terminal and it > was securely fastened and didn't move a bit during packing. However, > this just meant that the g-forces were transmitted straight through > to the three plastic mounting posts on the CRT in the enclosure > resulting in them being sheared off due to the g-force shocks. Had > the thing been wrapped in bubble wrap and enclosed in peanuts I doubt > this would have happened because the force wouldn't be spiking > through the enclosure to the heavy CRT tube. Peanuts work great for things that weigh less than about 10-20lbs. Once you get much heavier than that, the peanuts end up migrating towards the "top" of the box, than the item you've packed settles towards the bottom. Also, picking up the mess from someone shipping something in packing peanuts is a pain in the ass. > > Another disaster are those cornstarch-based peanuts. Fine when > > dry, but if they get wet, they turn to a sloppy mess and offer no > > protection at all. > > I hadn't thought about that, good point. Uhh, if what you're shipping gets wet enough during shipping to turn cornstarch peanuts into goo, your shipper has other problems... and I'd say you have just cause for an insurance claim. [[ I guess it's time for the annual "how to ship things and how to not ship things" thread... ]] Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 16:24:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 22:24:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060524104705.0eefc352@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 24, 6 10:47:05 am Message-ID: > have a working tape drive. I have rebuilt the drives on other HP but never > bothered to in the 9845s. The drives in my 9845B are indentical to the drives in the 9815/9825/9831/9877 units. If you've rebuilt one of those drives, you should be able to (temporarily) fit it to the 9845. The cotnroller is different, however. It doesn't even use the same I/O bus signals as the controller in the 9825/9831, so I assume it's not even software compatible. -tony From kth at srv.net Wed May 24 18:41:14 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:41:14 -0600 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >[[ I guess it's time for the annual "how to ship things and how to not >ship things" thread... ]] > > you mean like these don'ts: 1. Don't pack items with spray foam, without first putting the item being shipped into a plastic bag. 2. Don't expect office tape (scotch tape) to hold a box together. 3. Sticks, bark, and rocks don't make good packing material. 4. Don't try to eat those corn-starch peanuts. They really don't taste very good. or these do's 1. Use double walled boxes for larger/expensive items. 2. Insure expensive items. 3. Expect the package to be dropped from the roof of a building, and pack it accordingly. The more expensive the item. the taller the building. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 24 18:35:13 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:35:13 -0600 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> Message-ID: <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> Kevin Handy wrote: > 3. Expect the package to be dropped from the roof of a building, > and pack it accordingly. The more expensive the item. the > taller the building. I think packages are expected to have a 3 foot drop limit as normal. PS Watch out for fork-lifts placing nice holes in your package too. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 24 20:07:07 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:07:07 Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060524104705.0eefc352@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060524200707.4c2f2cce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:24 PM 5/24/06 +0100, you wrote: >> have a working tape drive. I have rebuilt the drives on other HP but never >> bothered to in the 9845s. > >The drives in my 9845B are indentical to the drives in the >9815/9825/9831/9877 units. If you've rebuilt one of those drives, you >should be able to (temporarily) fit it to the 9845. > >The cotnroller is different, however. It doesn't even use the same I/O >bus signals as the controller in the 9825/9831, so I assume it's not even >software compatible. I thought that was the case (cases?). I had just never bothered to rebuilt one for the 9845. BTW have you had problems with the 9845s being flaky? I usually have to tinker with them and clean and reseat the boards before I can get them to work if I've left them sitting more than a day or two. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 24 20:14:12 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:14:12 Subject: Semiconductor Books In-Reply-To: <9025E129D3FCD340A7BA67E342D10E7A1309F67D@ms06.mse1.mailstr eet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060524201412.3c5fb31a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have one from 1984 that I just picked up yesterday. What are you looking for? Joe At 11:43 PM 5/2/06 -0400, you wrote: >Hi, Jeff, > > > >I am looking for the Harris Semiconductor Analog databook. Do you still >have the books you posted on the internet a couple of years ago? If you >do, please reply this email. Thank you. > > > > > >Best Regards, > > > > > >K.B. > > > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed May 24 19:32:51 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:32:51 +0800 Subject: Data I/O Series 22 EPROM Programmer help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/23/06, ed_sipols at goodyear.com wrote: > I have acquired an old DATA I/O series 22 porm programmer. I have some Is "porm programmer" a developer which works for an adult website? :-) From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 24 19:41:46 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:41:46 -0400 Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 24 May 2006 10:47:05." <3.0.6.16.20060524104705.0eefc352@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200605250041.k4P0fkLK017309@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Joe R." wrote: ... >They have several HP 9845 tapes that they need to read. I'm not an HP person, but what exactly is an "HP 9845 tape". Is is a DC1000 style cart? Anything like a DEC TU-58? just curious. always interested in reading old tapes... :-) -brad From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed May 24 19:42:24 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:42:24 -0700 Subject: Enough Is Enough Message-ID: I know we're avid collectors, but come on now. $12,099 for a bloody operator's panel!!!! Billy eBay # 8811700182 From geneb at simpits.com Wed May 24 19:50:44 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:50:44 -0700 Subject: Kaypro docs... In-Reply-To: <4473FED2.3060304@pacbell.net> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <4473D04B.5010303@simpits.com> <4473FED2.3060304@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4474FF64.3010007@simpits.com> > Not to discourage you, the world could use more people willing to scan > and archive what they have, but > > http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers/pdf/kaypro/ > Ahh. Didn't realize that. However, mind has a publish date of June 1985, which may indicate that it has more or corrected info. > I scanned my ampro littleboard docs, but then I removed them when I > found they were already online. Howard Harte has some stuff here: > > http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Ampro/ > Ahh, that matches the one I have. Thanks for the heads up. > Check and scan what he doesn't already have. Of course, if you are so > inclined, scan everything you have. But if you are going to triage, > scan things that aren't online. > The attitude I'm taking is that if it'll stay still long enough to scan, it's fair game. I just wish I had unbound copies of the Bug Books. (BTW, I've only got Bug Book III. If anyone out there has I and II or any of the follow-ons (if there were any), please let me know if you're willing to part with them.) > H89 ROM listings are already online, but they are behind a password at > http://www.sebhc.org/. Having copies freely available would benefit > more people. > Ok. It looks like the one MTR-90 listing book I've got is not loose, so I won't be scanning that until I find one that's bound in the blue covers that can be separated without band-sawing spine off of it. (which I would do if I had another clean and intact copy) > I have used a nice high speed copier/scanner at work that can spit out > tif files or ready-to-go pdf files. There is a word of caution though. > The machine is set up to have a very high quality dithering algorithm > in order to get the visually most appealing results. This is different > than the simple threshold quantifier that you get from most scanners > when you ask for B&W scans. When you zoom in close to the text, the > edges will have a feathered appearance as the copier is trying to > approximate partial pixel coverage. It looks good, but hurts > compression and doesn't do anything helpful for OCR. You might want to grab one of the smaller TIF files and see if it'll cause any problems. I didn't notice any dithering on the one I spot checked yesterday, but I may have missed something. g. From geneb at simpits.com Wed May 24 19:53:35 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:53:35 -0700 Subject: Kaypro docs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4475000F.10605@simpits.com> > His version is for two later revs. > > It appears you missed chapter 16, though. > Unfortunately, if it's missing I don't have it. g. From geneb at simpits.com Wed May 24 19:54:26 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:54:26 -0700 Subject: Kaypro docs... In-Reply-To: <200605241320.37090.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605182315.k4INFf5J010032@onyx.spiritone.com> <7f9a92294e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <4473D04B.5010303@simpits.com> <200605241320.37090.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <44750042.6040002@simpits.com> > > Do you have the schematics for the power supplies used in their machines? I > have some, three or four versions by different mfrs. if I'm remembering > right, if needed. > Roy, I didn't even check. I know there is a number of schematics listed and some black & white photos of power supplies, but I haven't checked closely. g. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 24 20:00:00 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> > >all soft-sectored floppies, On Tue, 23 May 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Scott, that's a pretty tall claim! How are you at Durango 850 100 tpi GCR > floppies? How about 3.25" Dysan floppies? I used to say "MOST" soft-sectored floppies. Now, I'm not even sure of that. I do have 3" and 3.25" drives and a bunch of diskettes, but they're no longer easily accessible. Howzbout: Victor 9000 (aka Sirius) Some Commodore formats Drivetec / Kodak high density 5.25" 3.5" TRS-80 model 100 Portable drive I Proctology Ensoniq Mirage was fun (mixed sector sizes) Amiga is awkward to do without special hardware (MFM, but not WD style headers) 2.5" 2.9" 3.9" RE-WRITING to Epson Geneva PX-8 is awkward (67.5 TPI) The AMlyn drive was capable of a few weirdities From allain at panix.com Wed May 24 20:17:59 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 21:17:59 -0400 Subject: Enough Is Enough References: Message-ID: <016e01c67f99$108ae620$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8811700182 > I know we're avid collectors, but come on now. $12,099 for a > bloody operator's panel!!!! 4 bids to go from 1K to 12K looks fakey to me. The only bidder with >150 auctions is dkdkk. Time to get 'House of Games' on DVD and study up it seems. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 20:24:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:24:50 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200605241824500247.537C54C0@10.0.0.252> On 5/24/2006 at 6:00 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >I used to say "MOST" soft-sectored floppies. Now, I'm not even sure of >that. > >I do have 3" and 3.25" drives and a bunch of diskettes, but they're no >longer easily accessible. > >Howzbout: >Victor 9000 (aka Sirius) Gutless wonder floppy controller. >Some Commodore formats >Drivetec / Kodak high density 5.25" Which one? I can read both the 3 and 6.4MB versions. Wish I knew how to format them, though--it's that darned embedded servo thing. >3.5" TRS-80 model 100 Portable drive I >Proctology >Ensoniq Mirage was fun (mixed sector sizes) Reprised in the IBM XDF floppy. Try to read one in a USB drive... >Amiga is awkward to do without special hardware (MFM, but not WD style >headers) >2.5" >2.9" Or 2.8" >3.9" >RE-WRITING to Epson Geneva PX-8 is awkward (67.5 TPI) >The AMlyn drive was capable of a few weirdities You forgot the Insite 21MB floppy--or does that not count as "soft sectored"? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 24 20:31:52 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605241824500247.537C54C0@10.0.0.252> References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> <200605241824500247.537C54C0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060524182907.T1136@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 24 May 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >Drivetec / Kodak high density 5.25" > Which one? I can read both the 3 and 6.4MB versions. Wish I knew how to > format them, though--it's that darned embedded servo thing. > You forgot the Insite 21MB floppy--or does that not count as "soft > sectored"? I would count it, but, some might not. even 2.8M would be an obstacle with most stock hardware. It was definitely NOT intended as an exhaustive list. D'ya want a few boxes of miscellaneous problem disks? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed May 24 20:50:19 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:50:19 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova Trip Message-ID: Henk wrote: The disk drive has a fixed disk and a removable disk, much like the RL02 :-). I am told the Nova 3 has memory mngt installed, it has way more than 64 kb memory. On the disks is RTOS (?) and, as I am told, a COBOL compiler. - Henk, PA8PDP I'm curious about the disk. MPI was selling to DG in this time frame. This might be one of the many variations of the CDD or the Hawk. Can you look at the label on it without too much trouble? Or send a picture of the innards? Billy From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 21:01:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 19:01:13 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <20060524182907.T1136@shell.lmi.net> References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> <200605241824500247.537C54C0@10.0.0.252> <20060524182907.T1136@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200605241901130646.539DA5A7@10.0.0.252> On 5/24/2006 at 6:31 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >It was definitely NOT intended as an exhaustive list. Everytime I think about it, I come up with a few more screwball formats, like Multitech and Future Data. >D'ya want a few boxes of miscellaneous problem disks? Nope--got my own collection. What is interesting are the proprietary "one off" OS-es used on some. Everything from the ridiculously simple to the insanely complex in the way they allocated and stored files. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 21:03:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 19:03:07 -0700 Subject: Enough Is Enough In-Reply-To: <016e01c67f99$108ae620$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <016e01c67f99$108ae620$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200605241903070490.539F625B@10.0.0.252> On 5/24/2006 at 9:17 PM John Allain wrote: >4 bids to go from 1K to 12K looks fakey to me. >The only bidder with >150 auctions is dkdkk. >Time to get 'House of Games' on DVD and study up it seems. Take a look at the winner's other purchases. He/she seems to be very serious. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 21:07:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 19:07:37 -0700 Subject: Anyone with any Mitsubishi EDM information Message-ID: <200605241907370678.53A381C8@10.0.0.252> Does anyone have any documentation for the Mitsubishi EDM-J (Electric Discharge Machining)? I'm looking for a description of the protocol between the external floppy unit and the EDM controller. It appears to be RS-232C of some kind, but since I don't have access to a floppy unit, everything's going to come pretty slowly unless I can get a Rosetta Stone of some sort. Mitsubishi doesn't appear to know much at this point. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 24 21:10:57 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 19:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screwball disk formats In-Reply-To: <200605241901130646.539DA5A7@10.0.0.252> References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> <200605241824500247.537C54C0@10.0.0.252> <20060524182907.T1136@shell.lmi.net> <200605241901130646.539DA5A7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060524190725.O1136@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 24 May 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Everytime I think about it, I come up with a few more screwball formats, > like Multitech and Future Data. > >D'ya want a few boxes of miscellaneous problem disks? > Nope--got my own collection. What is interesting are the proprietary "one > off" OS-es used on some. Everything from the ridiculously simple to the > insanely complex in the way they allocated and stored files. I had left instructions for my collection to go to Don Maslin when I blue screen. Now, I don't know what to change that to. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 21:15:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 19:15:13 -0700 Subject: Anyone need a PA-RISC CPU? Message-ID: <200605241915130083.53AA74B5@10.0.0.252> There's a guy selling 2 of the 440MHz modules from a HP9000 system on Yahoo!: http://tinyurl.com/g8uck Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 24 21:25:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:25:58 -0600 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 24 May 2006 17:01:13 -0400. <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200605241701.13332.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > Peanuts work great for things that weigh less than about 10-20lbs. Once > you get much heavier than that, the peanuts end up migrating towards > the "top" of the box, than the item you've packed settles towards the > bottom. This hasn't been true for any of the CRTs/terminals I've had shipped to me and I'm pretty sure they are all heavier than 20 lbs. The problem with securing everything tight is that you're then conducting all the shocks straight into the equipment. Some of it can handle it. Some of it can't. Anything with a plastic enclosure and heavy items inside it like CRTs is not something I'd trust to having the g-forces directly conducted to the equipment. The peanuts shouldn't migrate unless you leave open space in the box. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 24 21:27:38 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:27:38 -0600 Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 24 May 2006 20:41:46 -0400. <200605250041.k4P0fkLK017309@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200605250041.k4P0fkLK017309 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > "Joe R." wrote: > ... > >They have several HP 9845 tapes that they need to read. > > I'm not an HP person, but what exactly is an "HP 9845 tape". Is is a > DC1000 style cart? Anything like a DEC TU-58? I believe these are DC-100 tapes, like those used in the Tektronix 4041 System Controller and the HP 264x line of terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 24 21:44:30 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 22:44:30 -0400 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 24 May 2006 22:25, Richard wrote: > In article <200605241701.13332.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > > Patrick Finnegan writes: > > Peanuts work great for things that weigh less than about 10-20lbs. Once > > you get much heavier than that, the peanuts end up migrating towards > > the "top" of the box, than the item you've packed settles towards the > > bottom. > > This hasn't been true for any of the CRTs/terminals I've had shipped > to me and I'm pretty sure they are all heavier than 20 lbs. The > problem with securing everything tight is that you're then conducting > all the shocks straight into the equipment. Some of it can handle it. > Some of it can't. Anything with a plastic enclosure and heavy items > inside it like CRTs is not something I'd trust to having the g-forces > directly conducted to the equipment. > > The peanuts shouldn't migrate unless you leave open space in the box. If you have enough weight, you'll end up crushing the peanuts if the box is ever dropped, which makes free space. The best way to ship a monitor/CRT is to find a box that was used to ship a monitor, and re-use it (including the foam). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 24 21:50:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:50:36 -0600 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 24 May 2006 22:44:30 -0400. <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200605242244.31058.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > The best way to ship a monitor/CRT is to find a box that was used to ship a > monitor, and re-use it (including the foam). Well, the best way to ship it is clearly in the original packing material. But honestly, unless the item is NIB, that doesn't happen even 5% of the time. I'm fairly certain that the delivery agencies that have brought stuff to my house don't purposely treat the peanut packed items with care and the other stuff with disregard. I'm betting that they all received equal treatment. Stuff packed with block styrofoam always had more voids and "give" in the items that arrived and some have arrived damaged. Those that have been sent wrapped in bubblewarap and placed in a box with all voids packed with at least 3" of peanuts have arrived in perfect condition. My assertions about "best" packing methods are based entirely on my experience with what I've recieved and are not theoretical. My sample is fairly large, being more than 20 but less than 100 items shipped. (I haven't bothered to calculate an exact count.) Your experience may vary and of course no matter what the packing method if the packer is a dufus that doesn't take any care in packing, then the method of packing doesn't matter. Weak boxes. Used boxes. Voids in the box. Little or no padding. Weak taping of seams. etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 24 22:08:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 21:08:20 -0600 Subject: AT&T Historian Sheldon Hochheiser Message-ID: Does anyone have an email address for him? hoschheiser at att.com no longer works. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 24 22:53:51 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:53:51 +1200 Subject: ROM-based languages/tools (was Re: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1) In-Reply-To: <447466D5.7010400@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <447466D5.7010400@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On 5/25/06, Holger Veit wrote: > > I _wish_ the C-64 had come with a monitor, with or without an > > assembler/disassembler. It was annoying to have stuff crash to the > > blue screen when I forgot to load the monitor (or there wasn't room). > > A common location for monitors surviving a reset (sure one has added a RESET > button to the user port or the serial IEC port) was of course 0xc000. > This helped a lot when hacking machine code on the C64. TIM relocated to 49152 > was rather common for work then. Indeed it was. I did a lot of work in the cassette buffer when things fit, but occasionally, I had to put code at $C000 because of the size of the project. -ethan From geneb at simpits.com Wed May 24 22:57:30 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:57:30 -0700 Subject: FOG disks. In-Reply-To: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> I had a plea from a site visitor today asking about the source code to corewars. He referenced a FOG index file that listed COREWARS.C. I've never seen any of the FOG DOS disks online. Does anyone have FOG DOS disk #292 or the corewars.c file? Thanks. g. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 24 22:57:55 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:57:55 +1200 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 5/25/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > I used to say "MOST" soft-sectored floppies. Now, I'm not even sure of > that. > > I do have 3" and 3.25" drives and a bunch of diskettes, but they're no > longer easily accessible. > > Howzbout: > Some Commodore formats Yeah... GCR, variable number sectors per track (4 zones, typically)... The only C= drive I can think of that used a WD-style chip was the 3.5" 1581. The best solution I know of is to interface vintage C= drives to modern hardware (IEEE-488 and/or IEC bus) - let the C= hardware do the hard work. > Ensoniq Mirage was fun (mixed sector sizes) No kidding - I have a Mirage - wish I could easily backup/recreate disks. -ethan From geneb at simpits.com Wed May 24 23:04:13 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 21:04:13 -0700 Subject: 2nd documentation update... In-Reply-To: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44752CBD.8050801@simpits.com> CP/M 68k: Users guide, system guide, programmer's guide, and C programmer's guide. GEMDOS Tech. reference, version 8 Lisp80, muMath/muSimp, muLisp/muStar and Algol 60. I found my copy of the bios listing for CP/M v2.2.04 for the H89. Is it available already? I also have "CLIBRARY v3.2a" for C/80 documentation. Many thanks to Mr. Stenzel(sp?) for sending those to me. g. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 23:07:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 21:07:47 -0700 Subject: FOG disks. In-Reply-To: <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> Message-ID: <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> Try nosing around here: http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/FOG/ On 5/24/2006 at 8:57 PM Gene Buckle wrote: >I had a plea from a site visitor today asking about the source code to >corewars. He referenced a FOG index file that listed COREWARS.C. I've >never seen any of the FOG DOS disks online. Does anyone have FOG DOS >disk #292 or the corewars.c file? > >Thanks. > >g. From geneb at simpits.com Wed May 24 23:24:19 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 21:24:19 -0700 Subject: FOG disks. In-Reply-To: <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44753173.2060009@simpits.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Try nosing around here: > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/FOG/ > Well, I think this is the first time anyone has pointed me to my own website. It's nice to know at least someone besides me still looks at it. *laughs* Unfortunately, all I have are the indices, none of the actual content. BTW, is there any interest in the PC-SIG disks? I know where some of that collection is hiding. g. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed May 24 23:31:23 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:31:23 +0800 Subject: Enough Is Enough In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But the incredible news is that SOMEBODY out-bidded dkdkk!!!!! :-) On 5/25/06, Billy Pettit wrote: > I know we're avid collectors, but come on now. $12,099 for a bloody > operator's panel!!!! > > Billy > > eBay # 8811700182 > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 24 23:31:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 21:31:35 -0700 Subject: FOG disks. In-Reply-To: <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605242131350269.54274E5E@10.0.0.252> Sorry, that URL that I gave just has the index. However, if you look here: http://cd.textfiles.com/carousel/002A/ you'll find COREWARS.ZIP, complete with the Lattice C version of Core Wars. This looks to be the file that you want. Cheers, Chuck From geneb at simpits.com Wed May 24 23:33:49 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 21:33:49 -0700 Subject: BASIC... In-Reply-To: <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <447533AD.4060900@simpits.com> In my digging I've come across the Heath/Zenith BASIC-80 manual. Any interest? I've also got an original Microsoft GW-BASIC manual which can be scanned as well. I've noticed that the Bitsavers archive doesn't have _any_ Heathkit documentation. Why is that? g. From useddec at aol.com Wed May 24 23:44:52 2006 From: useddec at aol.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 23:44:52 -0500 Subject: VCF / Midwest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c67fb5$f6d01d00$4f00a8c0@main> I am considering attending the VCF/Midwest in July as a vendor. One of the problems concerning this issue is what do I bring. I have a large selection of DEC and non-DEC equipment ranging from small books and print sets to large drives and cabinets, and I don't know what the level of interest is in this type of equipment. It has been suggested to me that I send this notice out and ask for your opinions and help. Among the items I can bring are PDP8, and PDPll unibus and qbus, documentation, boards, boxes, power supplies, and other options. Also, RKO5's, RLO2's, RX01, and RX02's, and parts. I have almost the entire VTl00 family selection, VT220's etc., and other monitors, parts, printers, and printer parts. I can ship these items almost anywhere, but If I know what you want, and you are going to be there, I'll bring it. I have several file cabinets full of documentation, including field service engineering drawings on the above mentioned equipment and also LCG. Also several hundred pieces of micro-fiche and a few hundred data books. (TI, Intel, Sig, GE. IR,etc. Several hundred various cassette tapes are also here, along with DEC media, some of which contains software. I have been in communication with several members, and must apologize if you have not heard back from me; I have been experiencing intermediate difficulties with AOL, and much of my mail has been lost. I have now switched to useddec at gmail.com, and hopefully this will solve my communication problems. Please feel free to contact me off-list should you have any comments. Thanks, Paul Anderson (217)586-5361 From geneb at simpits.com Thu May 25 00:01:33 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 22:01:33 -0700 Subject: FOG disks. In-Reply-To: <200605242131350269.54274E5E@10.0.0.252> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> <200605242131350269.54274E5E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44753A2D.8090902@simpits.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sorry, that URL that I gave just has the index. > > However, if you look here: > > http://cd.textfiles.com/carousel/002A/ > > you'll find COREWARS.ZIP, complete with the Lattice C version of Core Wars. > This looks to be the file that you want. Bingo! Thanks Chuck! g. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 25 00:31:25 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 22:31:25 -0700 Subject: Enough Is Enough In-Reply-To: <200605241903070490.539F625B@10.0.0.252> References: <016e01c67f99$108ae620$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <200605241903070490.539F625B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4475412D.2090603@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 5/24/2006 at 9:17 PM John Allain wrote: > > >Take a look at the winner's other purchases. He/she seems to be very >serious. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > i didnt find any other purchases. sewmature is primarily a seller of $3.00 junk High sale in last 30 days was 10.49. Are you sure you looked at sewmature, and not dennis k's history (dkdkk)? Certainly he and "ctechnology", and "cincocerros" seem to be after 50's and 60's computer parts with a big budget. I think I know where Dennis K's money comes from, but I dont know the others, or what they are doing with their stuff. Hopefully it will see the light of day, and not the junk heap when the owners kick off and their wives or families call the junk man to clear out the house. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 25 00:37:57 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:37:57 +1200 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 5/25/06, woodelf wrote: > Kevin Handy wrote: > > > 3. Expect the package to be dropped from the roof of a building, > > and pack it accordingly. The more expensive the item. the > > taller the building. > > I think packages are expected to have a 3 foot drop limit as normal. > PS Watch out for fork-lifts placing nice holes in your package too. I've said this here before, but it's in context - I was told by a friend who worked at UPS that there's a conveyor belt at the central UPS depot in Columbus that is 3'-4' off the ground and moves at 30 mph - stuff falls off every day. He said to pack your stuff as if it were going to be flung from a moving car - because it might. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 00:43:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 22:43:29 -0700 Subject: Public archiving--was: BASIC... In-Reply-To: <447533AD.4060900@simpits.com> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> <447533AD.4060900@simpits.com> Message-ID: <200605242243290552.54692309@10.0.0.252> On 5/24/2006 at 9:33 PM Gene Buckle wrote: >I've noticed that the Bitsavers archive doesn't have _any_ >Heathkit documentation. Why is that? Given that we're asking "why", I was wondering about the state of things that clearly weren't public domain or shareware and placing them in a public archive. For example, I've got a few CD's from an outfit called i-Mode, called "Developer Source"--basically a compendium of source code from a whole mess of computer magazines. I take it that said source is still under copyright and must be squirreled away until about 2080. Am I right? Will the CD last that long? Will there still be CD readers in 2080? How about some of the old subscription disk publications, like Big Blue Disk? Fair game to publicly archive or not? That GW-BASIC manual as well as several other publications would still be under copyright--has Microsoft given its consent to republish old manuals? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 00:46:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 22:46:50 -0700 Subject: Enough Is Enough In-Reply-To: <4475412D.2090603@msm.umr.edu> References: <016e01c67f99$108ae620$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <200605241903070490.539F625B@10.0.0.252> <4475412D.2090603@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200605242246500621.546C3477@10.0.0.252> On 5/24/2006 at 10:31 PM jim stephens wrote: >Are you sure you looked at sewmature, and not dennis k's history >(dkdkk)? Certainly he and "ctechnology", and "cincocerros" seem to be after 50's and 60's >computer parts with a big budget. Yeah, it was Dennis K. With a board here and there, and the odd manual, I wonder what he's trying to put together. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 25 00:50:35 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 22:50:35 -0700 Subject: Enough Is Enough References: <016e01c67f99$108ae620$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <200605241903070490.539F625B@10.0.0.252> <4475412D.2090603@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <447545AC.AF4C3468@cs.ubc.ca> But the real burning question in this is what the heck is a volume control doing on the front panel of a 370/168? Inquiring minds need to know. (Far left, half way down: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8811700182&indexURL=4&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting) (And it's labeled continuous low to high, so it's not something to do with selecting disk volumes.) From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 00:55:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 22:55:57 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200605242255570778.54748DCB@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 5:37 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: >I've said this here before, but it's in context - I was told by a >friend who worked at UPS that there's a conveyor belt at the central >UPS depot in Columbus that is 3'-4' off the ground and moves at 30 mph >- stuff falls off every day. He said to pack your stuff as if it were >going to be flung from a moving car - because it might. ...and don't confuse Fedex Ground (the green logo) with the express service (blue logo). Fedex Ground is nothing more than RPS, and they're no better at package handling or claims service than UPS. I had them practically destroy a tuba and then claim it must have been that way when I shipped it. Fortunately, I shipped it through a packaging outfit, who made good on the thing. One of the best ways I've found to ship heavy objects is depot-to-depot Amtrak Express service. Not every city has freight facilities, but it's great when you can use them. Insurance to $5K, and your package rides in a baggage car. Usually about 3 days coast-to-coast and $60 for 75 lbs. Cheers, Chuck From lcourtney at mvista.com Thu May 25 01:18:18 2006 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 23:18:18 -0700 Subject: Enough Is Enough In-Reply-To: <447545AC.AF4C3468@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <000a01c67fc3$04aaf1e0$c901a8c0@mvista.com> See page 32 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/GA22-7010-4_370-168funJul76.pdf Lee Courtney MontaVista Software, Inc. 2929 Patrick Henry Drive Santa Clara, CA. 95054-1831 408-572-7816 408-572-7020 Fax Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney http://www.linkedin.com/in/leecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:51 PM > To: General at priv-edmwaa05.telusplanet.net; and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Enough Is Enough > > But the real burning question in this is what the heck is a > volume control doing on the front panel of a 370/168? > Inquiring minds need to know. > > (Far left, half way down: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8811700182& > indexURL=4&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting) > > (And it's labeled continuous low to high, so it's not > something to do with selecting disk volumes.) From caveguy at wowway.com Thu May 25 06:43:45 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:43:45 -0400 Subject: Enough Is Enough In-Reply-To: <200605241903070490.539F625B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605251200.k4PC0Qea013598@pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com> In this case the high bidder has not recieved feedback on a purchase since Dec 2004. I am guessing it was a dkdkk trap :) See 8799118065 and the follow up BIN at 8809713217 and there related feedback. Fair market value is not always easy to determin without help. The other Bob On Wed, 24 May 2006 19:03:07 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 5/24/2006 at 9:17 PM John Allain wrote: >>4 bids to go from 1K to 12K looks fakey to me. >>The only bidder with >150 auctions is dkdkk. >>Time to get 'House of Games' on DVD and study up it seems. >Take a look at the winner's other purchases. He/she seems to be very >serious. >Cheers, >Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 25 07:20:39 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:20:39 -0500 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060525071824.058ecd78@mail> At 09:44 PM 5/24/2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >The best way to ship a monitor/CRT is to find a box that was used to ship a >monitor, and re-use it (including the foam). Which is why I like the box-within-a-box method. Support the inner box with spare foam (so the box doesn't shift, and such that the foam won't shift) as well as spare peanuts or other material to give some support to the other spaces. Double-wall boxes (like from many tube monitors and some PCs) are great for the outer box, too - but we do realize that our market for big tube monitor boxes will fade over time, too, as LCDs dominate. A good, sturdy box makes all the difference. Kept in dry conditions, they last a long time. I once had a 20+ year-old Terak shipped to me in the original boxes. They still looked brand-new and shipped well. A box gets some of its inner strength from edge-to-edge integrity. I like to be sure that the flaps meet precisely, then tape them down well. Lots of good-quality shipping tape, covering every flap seam. I repeat a mantra I learned when packing up endless boxes of crap after trade shows: packing tape is cheap insurance. - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 25 08:45:52 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:45:52 Subject: BASIC... In-Reply-To: <447533AD.4060900@simpits.com> References: <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060525084552.3b3f9bc6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:33 PM 5/24/06 -0700, you wrote: >In my digging I've come across the Heath/Zenith BASIC-80 manual. Any >interest? That should be scanned and posted. A lot of systems besides the Zenith used BASIC-80. I have a copy (and the manual) for the Intel MDS systems. Joe > >I've also got an original Microsoft GW-BASIC manual which can >be scanned as well. > >I've noticed that the Bitsavers archive doesn't have _any_ >Heathkit documentation. Why is that? > >g. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 25 08:40:53 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:40:53 Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? In-Reply-To: References: <"24 May 2006 20:41:46 -0400." <200605250041.k4P0fkLK017309@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060525084053.348f4e04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:27 PM 5/24/06 -0600, you wrote: > >In article <200605250041.k4P0fkLK017309 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, > Brad Parker writes: > >> "Joe R." wrote: >> ... >> >They have several HP 9845 tapes that they need to read. >> >> I'm not an HP person, but what exactly is an "HP 9845 tape". Is is a >> DC1000 style cart? Anything like a DEC TU-58? > >I believe these are DC-100 tapes, like those used in the Tektronix >4041 System Controller and the HP 264x line of terminals. Correct. They're also used in the HP 9815, 9825, 9835, HP-85 as well as other HP calculators and test equipment such as some of their protocall analyzers. I seriously doubt these can be read in another machine. For one thing, HP stores the program files in a tokenized format and AFIK no one knows what the token values are. Joe >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 25 08:55:57 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:55:57 Subject: UPS shipping problems was:Re: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060525085557.107f3a7c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:37 PM 5/25/06 +1200, ethan wrote: >On 5/25/06, woodelf wrote: >> Kevin Handy wrote: >> >> > 3. Expect the package to be dropped from the roof of a building, >> > and pack it accordingly. The more expensive the item. the >> > taller the building. >> >> I think packages are expected to have a 3 foot drop limit as normal. >> PS Watch out for fork-lifts placing nice holes in your package too. > >I've said this here before, but it's in context - I was told by a >friend who worked at UPS that there's a conveyor belt at the central >UPS depot in Columbus that is 3'-4' off the ground and moves at 30 mph >- stuff falls off every day. I've seen the exact same thing happen here at UPS in Orlando. They left the conveyor running until the packages piled up and JAMMED the conveyor. In the few minuates that I watched at least a dozen packages were shredded and/or crushed. The people in the shipping office were less than five feet from it but no one made an effort to turn it off. In fact, they had turned it on because the people in the warehouse were on break and weren't taking the packages off the conveyor and the packages were piling up in the shipping office. The problem with UPS is that they expect the shippers to pack their packages to survive UPS's gross incompetence and mishandling! I called their national customer service office that same day and reported what I'd seen but they couldn't care less. I finally wised up and started shipping with FedEX and I NEVER use UPS any more. Joe He said to pack your stuff as if it were >going to be flung from a moving car - because it might. > >-ethan > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 25 09:08:05 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:08:05 Subject: Don Maslin collection was:Re: Screwball disk formats In-Reply-To: <20060524190725.O1136@shell.lmi.net> References: <200605241901130646.539DA5A7@10.0.0.252> <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> <200605241824500247.537C54C0@10.0.0.252> <20060524182907.T1136@shell.lmi.net> <200605241901130646.539DA5A7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060525090805.3b3f8944@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:10 PM 5/24/06 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >On Wed, 24 May 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Everytime I think about it, I come up with a few more screwball formats, >> like Multitech and Future Data. >> >D'ya want a few boxes of miscellaneous problem disks? >> Nope--got my own collection. What is interesting are the proprietary "one >> off" OS-es used on some. Everything from the ridiculously simple to the >> insanely complex in the way they allocated and stored files. > >I had left instructions for my collection to go to Don Maslin when I blue >screen. Now, I don't know what to change that to. Speaking of Don. Does anyone know what finally became of his collection? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 25 09:14:46 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:14:46 Subject: Anyone with any Mitsubishi EDM information In-Reply-To: <200605241907370678.53A381C8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060525091446.107fc332@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I don't know anyhting about their EDM machines but I have to tell you that I've had GREAT luck when dealing with Mitsubishi. I was trying to find docs for one of their 8" floppy drives and I send an E-mail to their US sales office and I got a reply from the head honcho. He said they didn't have a manual in english so he contacted someone at Mitsubishi in Japan and had them take a Japanese manual and hard write in the important portions in english and then fax it to me. I was impressed! I've never had that kind of service from another company! Joe At 07:07 PM 5/24/06 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone have any documentation for the Mitsubishi EDM-J (Electric >Discharge Machining)? I'm looking for a description of the protocol >between the external floppy unit and the EDM controller. It appears to be >RS-232C of some kind, but since I don't have access to a floppy unit, >everything's going to come pretty slowly unless I can get a Rosetta Stone >of some sort. Mitsubishi doesn't appear to know much at this point. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 25 09:33:34 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:33:34 Subject: Pinging Vassilis_Prevelakis Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060525093334.107f1f6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Has anyone heard from VP lately? I tried to e-mail him and got an automated reply that he had changed his address so I sent a message to his new address but never heard back from him. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 25 09:04:05 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:04:05 Subject: More shipping problems was:Re: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605242255570778.54748DCB@10.0.0.252> References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:55 PM 5/24/06 -0700, you wrote: >On 5/25/2006 at 5:37 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>I've said this here before, but it's in context - I was told by a >>friend who worked at UPS that there's a conveyor belt at the central >>UPS depot in Columbus that is 3'-4' off the ground and moves at 30 mph >>- stuff falls off every day. He said to pack your stuff as if it were >>going to be flung from a moving car - because it might. > >...and don't confuse Fedex Ground (the green logo) with the express >service (blue logo). Fedex Ground is nothing more than RPS, and they're no >better at package handling or claims service than UPS. I beg to differ. I use FedEx ground almost everyday and I've never seen them pick up or deliver ANYTHING in a RPS truck. I also frequently drop packages at the local FedEx office and there are always trucks there but I've never seen a RPS truck there. Futhermore I recently shipped a DEC disk to Richard and the package was damaged and FedEx repacked it imporperly so when Richard got it the shock indicator was showing red. I filed a claim with FedEx and they paid the claim in about two weeks with no problems or quibbling what so ever. They even refunded the shipping costs. Try to get that out of USPS or UPS! I had them >practically destroy a tuba and then claim it must have been that way when I >shipped it. Fortunately, I shipped it through a packaging outfit, who made >good on the thing. > >One of the best ways I've found to ship heavy objects is depot-to-depot >Amtrak Express service. Not every city has freight facilities, but it's >great when you can use them. Insurance to $5K, and your package rides in a >baggage car. Usually about 3 days coast-to-coast and $60 for 75 lbs. That's an interesting idea. How big/heavy a package will they take? The warehouse that I use is directly across the street from an Amtrak station so that might be VERY handy. Joe > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu May 25 08:35:57 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:35:57 -0400 Subject: VCF / Midwest In-Reply-To: <000901c67fb5$f6d01d00$4f00a8c0@main> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060525092400.058ab1f0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Paul Anderson may have mentioned these words: >I am considering attending the VCF/Midwest in July as a vendor. Well, I finally have it passed thru the Department of War and Budget to attend this year as well. Next year, I'm planning [at least hoping] on going to the CoCoFest in Chicago; it's held in late April/early May, IIRC. I'd like to set up a display table with a lot of my still-working (in some cases still *using*) CoCo/Model 100/102/200 schtuff. Don't really have anything to 'vend' per se, tho... Laterz! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 25 08:36:39 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:36:39 +0100 Subject: 9-track tape drive to borrow? (Kent, UK) In-Reply-To: <000401c67f57$072deb50$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000401c67f57$072deb50$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <4475B2E7.7020406@yahoo.co.uk> Andy Holt wrote: > Not Kent, but just the other side of the river near Southend. > > I have a suitable drive (well, I hope it's OK - I don't think I've switched > it on this year.) Brilliant Andy - have forwarded details on so I'll leave it up to the chap as to what to do! many thanks, Jules From allain at panix.com Thu May 25 09:10:41 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:10:41 -0400 Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? References: <"24 May 2006 20:41:46 -0400."<200605250041.k4P0fkLK017309@mwave.heeltoe.com> <3.0.6.16.20060525084053.348f4e04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <005801c68005$12120340$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I seriously doubt these can be read in another machine. For one thing, > HP stores the program files in a tokenized format and AFIK no one knows > what the token values are. Reverse Engineering. Start with storing HelloWorld.BAS yourself, then reading it, etc. John A. From vp at drexel.edu Thu May 25 08:55:46 2006 From: vp at drexel.edu (Vassilis PREVELAKIS) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? Message-ID: <200605251355.k4PDtk9P029524@dune.cs.drexel.edu> "Joe R." wrote: > I seriously doubt these can be read in another machine. For one thing, > HP stores the program files in a tokenized format and AFIK no one knows > what the token values are. This only refers to BASIC programs, other files such as data files do not need a "detokenizer", but of course you need to know the structure of the data (which brings us back to reading the Basic programs that created them). As far as the Series 80 and the HP IPC (Integral PC), threre is a "detokenizer" that can be downloaded from: http://rocknroll.stanford.edu/~lharcke/programming/ (scroll down till you reach the section called "BASIC detokenizers for the HP Series 80 and Integral personal computers") I do not have access to HP-9845 Basic files, but the above programs may be able to read these files (hopefully without too much effort). Regards **vp From jgessling at yahoo.com Thu May 25 09:55:21 2006 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heathkit documentation ( was Re: BASIC...) In-Reply-To: <447533AD.4060900@simpits.com> Message-ID: <20060525145521.73257.qmail@web31910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > I've noticed that the Bitsavers archive doesn't have > _any_ > Heathkit documentation. Why is that? There are several sites that sell Heathkit docs, either originals, paper copies, or pdf files. I've been told that Heathkit has on occasion hassled people selling copies. Heathkit will sell you their authorized copies but they're pretty expensive. For example, I was quoted $45 + $7.50 for the ET-3400 (micro trainer) manual. See their web page for contact information. I later got a pdf copy and even better found a working unit with manual for $20 at a local flea market. (yes, I'm bragging) Jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 25 10:23:33 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:23:33 -0700 Subject: Planning for eventual disposal of collection In-Reply-To: <20060524190725.O1136@shell.lmi.net> References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> <200605241824500247.537C54C0@10.0.0.252> <20060524182907.T1136@shell.lmi.net> <200605241901130646.539DA5A7@10.0.0.252> <20060524190725.O1136@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 7:10 PM -0700 5/24/06, Fred Cisin wrote: >I had left instructions for my collection to go to Don Maslin when I blue >screen. Now, I don't know what to change that to. This is an important consideration that not enough of us think about. My instructions are outdated as well. The person that was supposed to be contacted about my computer collection if anything happened to me has left the state, and the hobby. Actually anyone with specific collections that they want to be disposed of in a certain way need to think about this, and leave instructions on how to dispose of the collection. Even if this is nothing more than a list that says, "do yourself a favor and put these items on eBay". Make sure everyone that needs to, knows this info, or at least where to get it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu May 25 10:32:28 2006 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:32:28 -0600 Subject: Data General Nova Trip References: Message-ID: <03db01c68010$71d67530$367cfea9@newhare> The Data General top-loading disk drives were designed and built by DG: the 6045 "Phoenix" series were 5 MB + 5 MB fixed/removable and the 6070 "Gemini" series were 10 MB + 10 MB fixed/removable. These were similar to the CDC "Hawk" series, but designed and built by DG in-house. Likewise, the DG Dasher (tm) LP2 and TP2 printers (Line Printer 2 - withouth keyboard, Terminal Printer 2 - with keyboard) were DG designed and built, and were similar in design to the DEC LA36 series. Commonly sporting the "classic" DG blue paint scheme, the later ones sometimes had an "earthtone" (brown) color that matched the DG MV rack scheme of the 1980's. It uses/prints the standard ASCII character set but has extended features that allow downloading programmer-created character sets and plotting functions. Hidden in its pedestal base is... ... a microNova that controls the printer/terminal. Serial, parallel and 20 ma current loop interfaces were available for it. The Dasher D200 terminal displays standard ASCII characters but has a cursor control and other special feature code set different than other vendors. Later DG Dasher terminals did have ANSI 1964 support along with the DG mode support. The Nova 3 officially can support 128 KW (256 KB) according to DG but can really handle up to 256 KW (512KB) with a single-word patch to the RDOS operating system. The Nova 3's were the last Nova with "real lights and switches" and signaled the end of an era for DG. There were three variants of the Nova 4: the Nova 4/X, the Nova 4/C and Nova 4/S. Each had the same instruction set that was upward compatible from the Nova 3, and differed only in physical implementation and market positioning. The Nova 4/X CPU was contained on a single CPU board (same board as the Eclipse S/140) and used separate memory boards with optional parity. The 4/X usually had the memory map and mul/div option microcode installed. The other systems were 'unmapped systems' using the same chassis but usually without the memory map and contained on a single board. These were popular with small-configuration dedicated systems such as process control, mass spectrometers, etc.. Rob's systems look in great shape and are a great rescue. The 6125 "screamer" (Streamer) tape drives are reliable and easily maintained compared to other tape units. The maintenance manual appears included in the docs shown in one .jpg. The main system disk drives appear to be the DG-built 6100-series Echo Winchester drives (12.5 or 25 MB) combined with a soft-sectored "quad" floppy (1.2 MB) that were very popular. (Note - the disks have a head restraint bar to lock the head during transit to prevent disk platter damage.). The S/20 system is hiding in an MV low-boy, earthtone rack. The S/20 is a microEclipse that has a different PCB form factor and backplane design than the standard 15" x 15" PCB standard.DG systems. The microNova and microEclipse series used a hybrid parallel/serial I/O backplane as a cost and space-savings technique compared to the standard DG parallel I/O backplane. This questionable decision resulted in significantly longer disk and tape I/O transfer times for the micro series than the standard DG series. Very noticable if you were a user. A frustrating note is that DG / EMC still considers its documentation and software (yeah, even the Nova stuff from the 1960s/70s) proprietary and will not yet let us release our archives to the public. We are still working with EMC legal on a "hobbyist release" for the gigs of docs and software in the growing archives... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy Pettit" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Data General Nova Trip > Henk wrote: > > The disk drive has a fixed disk and a removable > disk, much like the RL02 :-). I am told the Nova 3 has memory mngt > installed, it has way more than 64 kb memory. On the disks is RTOS > (?) and, as I am told, a COBOL compiler. > > - Henk, PA8PDP > > I'm curious about the disk. MPI was selling to DG in this time frame. > This > might be one of the many variations of the CDD or the Hawk. Can you look > at > the label on it without too much trouble? Or send a picture of the > innards? > > Billy > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 25 10:45:21 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:45:21 -0600 Subject: More shipping problems was:Re: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4475D111.60106@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe R. wrote: > At 10:55 PM 5/24/06 -0700, you wrote: > That's an interesting idea. How big/heavy a package will they take? The > warehouse that I use is directly across the street from an Amtrak station > so that might be VERY handy. > Forget computer's Joe, start collecting trains instead. :) You may be lucky as you might have a sideing(sp) across the street to the warehouse. > Joe > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 25 10:50:02 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:50:02 -0500 Subject: OT Re: More shipping problems was:Re: Reading old tapes References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net><4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <4475D111.60106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <015601c68012$e2e67ac0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Woodelf wrote... > Forget computer's Joe, start collecting trains instead. :) > You may be lucky as you might have a sideing(sp) across the street > to the warehouse. Actually, the Museum of Transportation here in St. Louis is a 100% train museum. I is REALLY nice and well worth visiting when you're here. Back on topic - you will find shipping large things MUCH cheaper if you drop the last leg off each end of the journey - in other words, drop off the item at the freight terminal instead of them picking it up at your house, and have the recipient pick up the item at his freight terminal instead of them delivering it. This saves a VERY large percentage of the shipping price if you have a shipper that will do terminal to terminal shipping. I had one package go from $400 shipping to $75 shipping because of this. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 11:16:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:16:30 -0700 Subject: More shipping problems was:Re: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200605250916300503.56ACAB8E@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 9:04 AM Joe R. wrote: > I beg to differ. I use FedEx ground almost everyday and I've never seen >them pick up or deliver ANYTHING in a RPS truck. That's because FedEx bought RPS, and retired the aging fleet. On the matter of the destroyed tuba (it had to have been dropped from quite a distance to sustain the damage it did)--they essentially gave me the run-around for almost a year (while keeping the damaged goods and further damaging it). When confronted about the delaying tactics, they pleaded organizational problems (we closed the customer service office in your area and the records are a mess). Maybe they've improved since that time, but the only way I got my money back was to file a small-claims action against the packaging outfit. I don't know if Fedex ever paid the claim. Now Fedex express service (not the green logo trucks, but the blue logo trucks) is exemplary. They've always paid off on claims promptly, are courteous, and appear to handle things carefully. I'm a loyal customer there. But for bulk packages, I don't see a lot of difference between Fedex Green and UPS. In my area, I actually get better service from the UPS personnel. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu May 25 11:28:54 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:28:54 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova Trip Message-ID: Bruce Ray wrote: An excellent summary of the Data General Nova hardware. I thank you for that. I learned a lot I didn't know about the DG world. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 11:30:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:30:30 -0700 Subject: Anyone with any Mitsubishi EDM information In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060525091446.107fc332@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060525091446.107fc332@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200605250930300491.56B97CC2@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 9:14 AM Joe R. wrote: >I don't know anyhting about their EDM machines but I have to tell you >that I've had GREAT luck when dealing with Mitsubishi. We've found that the Mitsubishi USA folks to be very helpful as well, but when we start talking about internal documentation about old machine tool controllers, there seems to be a bit of a vacuum. While OEM and customer documentation is fairly easy to come by (in Japanese), design documentation is another matter. That's the problem with putting computers on machine tools--the investment in the iron may be well into the mid- to high-6 figures and the mechanical parts be easily maintainable, but the electronics details seem to suffer from amnesia. The problem isn't specific to Mitsubishi, either. Well, worst-case, we'll disassemble some code and see what turns up. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 25 11:32:27 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:32:27 -0700 Subject: OT Re: More shipping problems was:Re: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <015601c68012$e2e67ac0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net><4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <4475D111.60106@jetnet.ab.ca> <015601c68012$e2e67ac0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4475DC1B.80407@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Back on topic - you will find shipping large things MUCH cheaper if you > drop the last leg off each end of the journey - in other words, drop off > the item at the freight terminal instead of them picking it up at your > house, and have the recipient pick up the item at his freight terminal > instead of them delivering it. This saves a VERY large percentage of the > shipping price if you have a shipper that will do terminal to terminal > shipping. > > I had one package go from $400 shipping to $75 shipping because of this. And, in my experience, dock-to-dock shippling also cuts the likelihood of damage by about 90%. Especially with very heavy items. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 11:40:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:40:06 -0700 Subject: Shipping - was: Reading old tapes. In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060525071824.058ecd78@mail> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20060525071824.058ecd78@mail> Message-ID: <200605250940060900.56C2485B@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 7:20 AM John Foust wrote: >Double-wall boxes (like from many tube monitors and some PCs) >are great for the outer box, too - but we do realize that our >market for big tube monitor boxes will fade over time, too, >as LCDs dominate. If it's big and heavy and valuable, build a crate with some cheap wood paneling (hunt the scrap stock at your local home-improvement store) and strapping material (an air-powered nail gun makes this go fast) using construction adhesive. Brace the device in the crate so it can't move and strap it to a pallet and ship depot-to-depot truck freight. If you're willing to handle the "first and last mile" yourself, it's surprising how competitive truck freight can be with UPS and Fedex. That pallet will prevent anything from getting too close to your baby. A number of friends who frequently ship tubas internationally tell me that BAX Global offers about the best rates between Europe and the US. I haven't discovered a similar outfit that offers good service to Australia/New Zealand, however. Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 25 12:41:33 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:41:33 Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? In-Reply-To: <005801c68005$12120340$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <3.0.6.16.20060525084053.348f4e04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060525124133.50cfcbf4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:10 AM 5/25/06 -0400, you wrote: >> I seriously doubt these can be read in another machine. For one thing, >> HP stores the program files in a tokenized format and AFIK no one knows >> what the token values are. > >Reverse Engineering. >Start with storing HelloWorld.BAS yourself, then reading it, etc. > It would much simpler to just fix the tape drive in a 9845 and use it. The drive isn't the biggest problem. The real problems are that tapes are very prone to shedding the media and therefore permanently losing the data. Also the calculator interprets the now clear media as an EOT hole so you can't read anything past that. PLUS the drive belts in the cassette tapes dry out and fall apart so you usually have to replace those to even get the tape to move. All in all, you get FEW chances to read the tape. You need to have everything as near perfect as possible and then read the tape ONCE and be able to interpret it properly the first time. Joe From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 25 11:47:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:47:47 -0600 Subject: Enough Is Enough In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 25 May 2006 07:43:45 -0400. <200605251200.k4PC0Qea013598@pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: In article <200605251200.k4PC0Qea013598 at pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com>, "Bob Bradlee" writes: > Fair market value is not always easy to determin without help. So let me see if I understand what you're saying. They put up the item so that someone else would bid "fair market value" and then colluded with someone else to have the first bidder automatically outbid so that they wouldn't have to actually sell it? That's got to be cause for having your ebay account revoked, isn't it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 25 12:11:19 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:11:19 -0700 Subject: More shipping problems was:Re: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605250916300503.56ACAB8E@10.0.0.252> References: <200605241701.13332.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> <4474EDB1.5090007@jetnet.ab.ca> <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200605250916300503.56ACAB8E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4475E537.1080801@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/25/2006 at 9:04 AM Joe R. wrote: > >> I beg to differ. I use FedEx ground almost everyday and I've never seen >> them pick up or deliver ANYTHING in a RPS truck. > > That's because FedEx bought RPS, and retired the aging fleet. On the Yup. FedEx Ground is often a little cheaper than UPS or USPS. But, I haven't found any of them to be particularly "exemplary". I ship a lot of cookies (!). Much more fragile than most electronic things (e.g., pizzelles break if you LOOK at them funny!) What I have learned with all of the carriers is that you REALLY have to pack things well. And, have to *expect* the package to be manhandled by 800 pound gorillas. If you cringe when you accidentally drop the package on your way out to the car, then you *know* you haven't packed it well! I am trying to find a urethane foam that I can use to "conformal pack" electronic devices (wrap object in lightweight plastic then fill the box with foam and let it expand to fill all voids). But, the only material I have found tends to get expensive (many dollars per package) and isn't dense enough for really heavy items. > matter of the destroyed tuba (it had to have been dropped from quite a > distance to sustain the damage it did)--they essentially gave me the > run-around for almost a year (while keeping the damaged goods and further > damaging it). When confronted about the delaying tactics, they pleaded > organizational problems (we closed the customer service office in your area > and the records are a mess). Maybe they've improved since that time, but > the only way I got my money back was to file a small-claims action against > the packaging outfit. I don't know if Fedex ever paid the claim. > > Now Fedex express service (not the green logo trucks, but the blue logo > trucks) is exemplary. They've always paid off on claims promptly, are > courteous, and appear to handle things carefully. I'm a loyal customer > there. But for bulk packages, I don't see a lot of difference between > Fedex Green and UPS. In my area, I actually get better service from the > UPS personnel. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 25 12:16:13 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:16:13 -0400 Subject: Enough Is Enough In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605251316.13254.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 25 May 2006 12:47, Richard wrote: > In article <200605251200.k4PC0Qea013598 at pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com>, > > "Bob Bradlee" writes: > > Fair market value is not always easy to determin without help. > > So let me see if I understand what you're saying. > > They put up the item so that someone else would bid "fair market > value" and then colluded with someone else to have the first bidder > automatically outbid so that they wouldn't have to actually sell it? > > That's got to be cause for having your ebay account revoked, isn't > it? Why would ebay care? They still get their money out of it. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu May 25 12:19:12 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:19:12 -0400 Subject: Anyone with any Mitsubishi EDM information In-Reply-To: <200605241907370678.53A381C8@10.0.0.252> References: <200605241907370678.53A381C8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605251319.12885.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 24 May 2006 10:07 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone have any documentation for the Mitsubishi EDM-J (Electric > Discharge Machining)? I'm looking for a description of the protocol > between the external floppy unit and the EDM controller. It appears to be > RS-232C of some kind, but since I don't have access to a floppy unit, > everything's going to come pretty slowly unless I can get a Rosetta Stone > of some sort. Mitsubishi doesn't appear to know much at this point. You might find the yahoo "CAD-CAM-EDM-DRO" group useful for this, there are some fairly knowledgable folks in there... Here's a URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu May 25 12:33:04 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:33:04 -0400 Subject: FOG disks. In-Reply-To: <44753173.2060009@simpits.com> References: <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> <44753173.2060009@simpits.com> Message-ID: <200605251333.04948.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 25 May 2006 12:24 am, Gene Buckle wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Try nosing around here: > > > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/FOG/ > > Well, I think this is the first time anyone has pointed me to my own > website. It's nice to know at least someone besides me still looks at > it. *laughs* :-) > Unfortunately, all I have are the indices, none of the actual content. > BTW, is there any interest in the PC-SIG disks? I know where some of > that collection is hiding. Nice thing is, he also pointed _me_ to that site, which I hadn't seen before. I've gotta see if I can find the time to go into there and do some digging... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu May 25 12:35:52 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:35:52 -0400 Subject: Public archiving--was: BASIC... In-Reply-To: <200605242243290552.54692309@10.0.0.252> References: <447533AD.4060900@simpits.com> <200605242243290552.54692309@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605251335.52422.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 25 May 2006 01:43 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about some of the old subscription disk publications, like Big Blue > Disk? Fair game to publicly archive or not? My recollection of the one or two of those that I've encountered is that the copyright is on the compliation, but that often much of the contents were online at the time anyhow, for whatever that's worth... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From caveguy at wowway.com Thu May 25 12:37:31 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:37:31 -0400 Subject: Enough Is Enough In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200605251738.k4PHcQUm004239@pop-4.dnv.wideopenwest.com> I am not sure, what is going on, I have been watching closely for a long time. I put out some fresh bait, today to see how many are serious bidders. I truely do need to schedual extensive dental surgery next friday, if I am going to present a mutterings at VCFm2 in july. With that said, I will be sad to let it go at opening bid, but no good dead gooes unpunished, bid early bid often. I will be interested to see who if anyone bids .... In fact, as long as both the highbidder and the seller exchanges positive feedback, and the ebay fees are paid, epay is happy. It is an expensive way to place a hidden Reserve, but a fine way to evaluate the auction value of something you are not sure you want to sell. If the bidder and seller agree to void the auction, the seller is in their perfect right to offer it as a second chance auction to any other bidder or relist it as a buy-it-now at a fixed price. That drives up ebay's value a tiney bit because they get to collect listing and final-value-fees on the item for a second time. Ebay gets upset if the shill bid is retracted, after bumping price. But as long as final value fees are payed there is no one left to complain to or about. The other Bob On Thu, 25 May 2006 10:47:47 -0600, Richard wrote: >In article <200605251200.k4PC0Qea013598 at pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com>, > "Bob Bradlee" writes: >> Fair market value is not always easy to determin without help. >So let me see if I understand what you're saying. >They put up the item so that someone else would bid "fair market >value" and then colluded with someone else to have the first bidder >automatically outbid so that they wouldn't have to actually sell it? >That's got to be cause for having your ebay account revoked, isn't >it? >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu May 25 12:40:44 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:40:44 -0400 Subject: More shipping problems was:Re: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060525090405.107f4d3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200605251340.44277.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 25 May 2006 05:04 am, Joe R. wrote: > At 10:55 PM 5/24/06 -0700, you wrote: > >On 5/25/2006 at 5:37 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>I've said this here before, but it's in context - I was told by a > >>friend who worked at UPS that there's a conveyor belt at the central > >>UPS depot in Columbus that is 3'-4' off the ground and moves at 30 mph > >>- stuff falls off every day. He said to pack your stuff as if it were > >>going to be flung from a moving car - because it might. > > > >...and don't confuse Fedex Ground (the green logo) with the express > >service (blue logo). Fedex Ground is nothing more than RPS, and they're > > no better at package handling or claims service than UPS. > > I beg to differ. I use FedEx ground almost everyday and I've never seen > them pick up or deliver ANYTHING in a RPS truck. I also frequently drop > packages at the local FedEx office and there are always trucks there but > I've never seen a RPS truck there. That's because they've re-painted all of the RPS trucks withthe fedex paint-job... We have one of their shipping distribution facilities in the area, in Lewisberry, York County (PA). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 25 13:40:46 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:40:46 -0700 Subject: Lots of paper Message-ID: <4475FA2E.5050507@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I really *must* do something to get control of this growing "pile", here! :< (no basements in this part of the country so this stuff competes for garage space, etc.) I'm trying to thin out my databook collection. Most of which is old and no longer pertinent to the products I design (I rely more on the web for current data). Nor is it contractually required to support older products, etc. I'm keeping all of the processor/support related documents but most of the other stuff is just taking up too much space. Is there anyone who likes to stockpile paper (for those cold winter nights when you don't want to run outside to fetch another log from the woodpile but need *something* to stoke the fire... :> )? Here's the first batch of documents. I'm at 85751. Figure paper is *heavy* so unless you've got currency to burn... I don't drink so beer money isn't a concern. And, I can probably find suitable boxes for any of this (the good thing about paper is it packs well! :> ). So, postage is the only issue. I'd probably prefer USPS (media rate is cheap) since FedEx and UPS are clear across town (and I am not fond of driving in 100+ temperatures!). Mail me the appropriate postage and no money need change hands... (sorry, I don't think I can deal with international mail) Please reply off-list. NCR/Symbios (now LSI Logic?) docs: ================================= NCR 53C90 Advanced SCSI Processor User's Guide (UG) NCR SCSI Device Management System SDMS 3.0 UG SYM53C720/SE/53C770 SCSI I/O Processor Programming Guide (PG) SYM53C720/53C720SE SCSI I/O Processor Data Manual (DM) SYM53C770 SCSI I/O Processor with Ultra SCSI DM NCR 53CF92 Fast SCSI Controller DM SYM53CF90A, 53CF90B SCSI I/O Processors DM 53CF94/96-2 Fast SCSI Controller DM Tandon ====== OEM Operating and Service Manual TM100-[34],-[34]M disk drives OEM Operting and Service Manual TM848-[12] Disk Drives From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 25 13:58:56 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:58:56 -0700 Subject: Another lot of paper Message-ID: <4475FE70.1010807@DakotaCom.Net> Texas Instruments ("Data Books") ================= High Speed CMOS Logic '84 LSI Logic '86 Linear Circuits '84 Interface Circuits '87 TTL Vol 1 '84 TTL Vol 2 '85 ALS/AS Logic '86 Audio Power Amps '00 Data Transmission Circuits (Line Circuits) '98 TMS380 Second Generation Token Ring UG '90 High Performance Networking Components (ATM, enet, TR, SONET...) '95 Crap! This stuff takes up a *lot* of space! :( From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 25 14:44:52 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:44:52 -0700 Subject: Yet another lot Message-ID: <44760934.5050005@DakotaCom.Net> Sorry for all these little messages. But, if I had to type everything into one BIG message, I would just decide it was too much work and toss the whole lot in the recycling bin! :-/ I'll try to cram more into each list... Signetics (now known as Phillips) ========= 1987 Linear Data Manual Vol 1: Communications Vol 2: Industrial Vol 3: Video 1984 TTL 1985 Linear and Applications Vol II Analog Devices ============== Amplifier Reference Manual (RM) '92 Data Converter RM Vol I '92 Data Converter RM Vol II '92 Special Linear RM '92 Design-In RM '94 Linear Products '90/92 Data Conversion Products '89/90 Micron ====== Flash Memory '97 DRAM '96 SRAM '96 Hitachi ======= IC Memeory Data Book '90 SRAM Data Book '90 National Semiconductor ====================== Linear [123] Databook '88 Linear Applications '86 Interface '86 Memory '90 Interface '94 Local Area Networks '93 FACT Advanced CMOS '90 FAST Advanced Schottky '90 Fujitsu Memories '86/87 Xicor Data Book '88 Micro Linear Data Book '91 AMD Network Products: ethernet controllers Book 2 '98 (I imagine there's a volumen 1 around here someplace) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 16:03:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:03:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060524200707.4c2f2cce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 24, 6 08:07:07 pm Message-ID: > flaky? I usually have to tinker with them and clean and reseat the boards > before I can get them to work if I've left them sitting more than a day or > two. Not especially. And I can't see any obvious reason why this should be the case -- they're the same edge connectors used on other HP products, the boards fit in proper guides and are clamped down, etc. Maybe your machine(s) have been used is a slightly corrosive atmosphere or something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 16:06:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:06:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <4474EF1A.4050506@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at May 24, 6 05:41:14 pm Message-ID: > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > >[[ I guess it's time for the annual "how to ship things and how to not > >ship things" thread... ]] > > > > > you mean like these don'ts: > > 1. Don't pack items with spray foam, without first putting > the item being shipped into a plastic bag. > 2. Don't expect office tape (scotch tape) to hold a box > together. > 3. Sticks, bark, and rocks don't make good packing material. > 4. Don't try to eat those corn-starch peanuts. They really > don't taste very good. > > or these do's > > 1. Use double walled boxes for larger/expensive items. > 2. Insure expensive items. > 3. Expect the package to be dropped from the roof of a building, > and pack it accordingly. The more expensive the item. the > taller the building. > > Experimental evidence in the UK suggests that carriage companies use a 'misleading English phrase book' (with apologies to Monty Python). In particular, the phrase 'Delicate Scientific Instrument' is translated to the phrase 'This package is to be used for playing (American) football' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 16:11:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:11:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? In-Reply-To: <200605250041.k4P0fkLK017309@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at May 24, 6 08:41:46 pm Message-ID: > > > "Joe R." wrote: > ... > >They have several HP 9845 tapes that they need to read. > > I'm not an HP person, but what exactly is an "HP 9845 tape". Is is a The obvious answer is that it's a tape used in an HP9845 desktop computer. This was one of the most complicated BASIC machines ever, 2 processors (one to run BASIC, the other for I/O), etc. The base model had a pair of HP 'BPC' hybrid processor modules in there, there was a 'high speed language processor option' that replaced the language processor with 3 boards stuffed with AMD2900-series, etc. This machine has one tape drive built in, and an optional second one. > DC1000 style cart? Anything like a DEC TU-58? Physically, it's a the same cartridge as a TU58, although not pre-formatted with a clock track. There are certainly 2 (and only 2) tracks on the tape, but more than that I can't tell you. The 9845B controller (the only one I've seen) has a heatsinked hybrid circuit in the middle of the PCB. Some of the pins go to the I/O bus, others go to the tape drive. And there's not that much more on that PCB. The same tapes were used in the 9825 'calculator', and I believe the 9845 can read 9825 tapes. The 9825 controller is all known chips, but it's also very processor-intensive (to the extent it doesn't even include a serial <-> parallel shift register, instead the bits off the tape are DMAed into the LSBs of successive memory locations, it's up to software to sort them out). So details of that controller are not a lot of help either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 16:17:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:17:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 24, 6 06:00:00 pm Message-ID: > I used to say "MOST" soft-sectored floppies. Now, I'm not even sure of > that. [...] > RE-WRITING to Epson Geneva PX-8 is awkward (67.5 TPI) Presumably you mean the disks used in a PF-10 (the PX8 can use the TF20 drive, which is a pair of normal 40-cylinder 5.25" drives). If you have a working PF10, you could talk to it from a PC serial port (the interface is asynchronous, RS232 levels, 38400 baud). Talking of oddball floppies (and Epson), I haev, somewhere, an Epson thing about the size of the TF20, but labelled BM-5 (IIRC). It contains a single 5.25" drive. Now for the odd part. The cables to that drive look like ST412 _hard_ drive cables (i.e. a 34 pin and a 20 pin connector). The controller board, which has a parallel interface connector back to the host (pesumably it goes with some special I/O card for a QX10 that I don't have) has a hard disk controller chipset on it. But the drive sure looks like an overcomplicated floppy drive. What do I have here, and what sort of disks does it use? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 16:34:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:34:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: VERY interesting phone call re: HP 9845. Can you help? In-Reply-To: <005801c68005$12120340$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at May 25, 6 10:10:41 am Message-ID: > > > I seriously doubt these can be read in another machine. For one thing, > > HP stores the program files in a tokenized format and AFIK no one knows > > what the token values are. > > Reverse Engineering. > Start with storing HelloWorld.BAS yourself, then reading it, etc. having read the intenrals documentation for the HP75 [1], it may not be _that_ easy to reverse-engineer. From what I remember, on the 75, some of BASIC is tranlated into a reverse polish type of code when it's tokenised. I wouldn't be suprised if other HP machines did odd things like that and didn't just replace keywords with tokens. [1] It's over 1000 pages, so no way am I offereing to copy that! -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 25 16:56:24 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060525145139.L48000@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 25 May 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > RE-WRITING to Epson Geneva PX-8 is awkward (67.5 TPI) > Presumably you mean the disks used in a PF-10 (the PX8 can use the TF20 > drive, which is a pair of normal 40-cylinder 5.25" drives). > If you have a working PF10, you could talk to it from a PC serial port > (the interface is asynchronous, RS232 levels, 38400 baud). Alas, I don't have one, but I do have some 67.5 TPI 3.5" drives. > Talking of oddball floppies (and Epson), I haev, somewhere, an Epson > thing about the size of the TF20, but labelled BM-5 (IIRC). It contains a > single 5.25" drive. Now for the odd part. The cables to that drive look > like ST412 _hard_ drive cables (i.e. a 34 pin and a 20 pin connector). > The controller board, which has a parallel interface connector back to > the host (pesumably it goes with some special I/O card for a QX10 that I > don't have) has a hard disk controller chipset on it. But the drive sure > looks like an overcomplicated floppy drive. > What do I have here, and what sort of disks does it use? I don't know. But somewhere, I have a similar unit from NEC! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 25 17:03:51 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:03:51 -0500 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) Message-ID: <019101c68047$1bc1b1f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Well, I was expecting to get a Heathkit H11 today, but instead got handed something else. 1) A mint condition Heathkit H27 (dual 8" floppy drive for H11). Wonder if it's usable on anything else? 2) An odd Xerox box with two pieces: A) There's a keyboard labled G25-028409. It has these tilt-up legs of a style I've never seen before (they turn and come down from the side like landing gear). The cable coming off the keyboard (keyboard end is hardwired) has a DB25 on it. There is also a DB15 port on the back of the keyboard with little lock posts like you see on an AUI port. The keyboard is missing what I assume to be the ESC key. B) There's the main "unit" labled product Code U07, and U07-015414. This white cube has a black 8" floppy drive in the front. On the back is a hardwired cable that ends in a DB37, and also a DB37 port on the back. I get the feeling this box is JUST a floppy drive, not a system. There is a floppy disk in the drive labled "Xerox 8000, applications #5, Master Disk, part 130S01031, Rev OS4.2, code 2Q84, CS#0714". Whatever the heck that means! Any one in the know about Xerox stuff like this care to expand on what I have? Thanks! Jay West From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 25 17:08:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:08:22 -0600 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 25 May 2006 17:03:51 -0500. <019101c68047$1bc1b1f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <019101c68047$1bc1b1f0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > A) There's a keyboard labled G25-028409. It has these tilt-up legs of a > style I've never seen before (they turn and come down from the side like > landing gear). The cable coming off the keyboard (keyboard end is hardwired) > has a DB25 on it. There is also a DB15 port on the back of the keyboard with > little lock posts like you see on an AUI port. The keyboard is missing what > I assume to be the ESC key. Perhaps the DB15 port is a mouse port? Tektronix 9200/4105 9201/4205 terminal keyboards have a mouse port on the back (with a little icon of a mouse :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 25 17:11:04 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:11:04 -0500 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) References: Message-ID: <01b701c68048$1d7b2c50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > Perhaps the DB15 port is a mouse port? Tektronix 9200/4105 9201/4205 > terminal keyboards have a mouse port on the back (with a little icon > of a mouse :-). Could be, no icon on this one though. Given that it's a Xerox of some age, I was going to make a wild guess of lightpen or graphics tablet! Jay From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 25 17:47:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:47:55 -0600 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 25 May 2006 17:11:04 -0500. <01b701c68048$1d7b2c50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <01b701c68048$1d7b2c50$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote.... > > Perhaps the DB15 port is a mouse port? Tektronix 9200/4105 9201/4205 > > terminal keyboards have a mouse port on the back (with a little icon > > of a mouse :-). > Could be, no icon on this one though. Given that it's a Xerox of some age, I > was going to make a wild guess of lightpen or graphics tablet! I suppose if you opened up the keyboard and called out some part numbers that were attached to the DB15 we might be able to guess what was connected there. If it was a tablet or mouse, its most likely got a serial communications chip, while if it was a light pen I'd expect some analog conditioning and a simple a/d conversion circuit. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 25 18:06:53 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:06:53 -0700 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) Message-ID: Congratulations, someone just gave you a Xerox Star. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 25 18:11:57 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:11:57 -0700 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just reread your post. If you can post pics I should be able to ID them. When I saw white cube with 8" floppy, I was thinking tower. It's probaby an 8" floppy for a Xerox 820. The keyboard is probably a later style one for a Star. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 25 18:25:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 00:25:03 +0100 Subject: DN10000s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44763CCF.1090002@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: >> *were these developed in-house, or sourced from elsewhere? > > It was an Apollo-designed processor. Thanks Al - I'd always wondered! > My housemate at the time was at Sun, and there was much concern > that it would be a SPARC-killer (Apollo was Sun's major competition > up until HP killed off Apollo). > >> No idea why they're so rare and forgotten about > > They came out just before HP bought them, who proceeded to > bury it in favor of HP PA. That's a real shame - from all I've heard (Which admittedly isn't much - DN10k info is few and far between) they were pretty nice machines. cheers Jules From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu May 25 19:03:41 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:03:41 -0700 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) In-Reply-To: References: <01b701c68048$1d7b2c50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: The U07 box sounds like the external drive for a Xerox 820 computer system. There should be room for two full height floppies or a single floppy and an 8 inch hard drive. They have 37 pin connectors if I remember correctly. However the floppy disk in it may be for a Xerox Star 8010 since it is labeled Xerox 8000. I would not be surprised to have one of the external drive boxes hook up to an 8010 Star but I do not remember a external drive connector. The second keyboard could be a low profile Xerox 820 II keyboard. The original keyboard was clunky and they made a low profile one that was much nicer. Both of these had 25 pin D connectors. Could be a Xerox Star keyboard (for the 6085 series also and the extra connector would be for the mouse. The mouse port is a D9 though from what I remember. I can't remember if it is a D25 connector for the computer though. I have one in storage but can't get to it now. My bet is they are two pieces to a Xerox 820 computer and you are missing the 3rd piece, the computer which is built into the monitor. The connectors match up for that. The Xerox 820 was a CPM Z80 system designed around the Big Board Computer from what I understand. The Xerox 820 was my third computer system. Upgradable to a 16 bit 8086 and could run early MS-Dos besides CPM86. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu May 25 19:37:58 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:37:58 -0400 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) In-Reply-To: <019101c68047$1bc1b1f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Jay West wrote: < got a bunch of stuff and... > > B) There's the main "unit" labled product Code U07, and > U07-015414. This white cube has a black 8" floppy drive > in the front. On the back is a hardwired cable that ends > in a DB37, and also a DB37 port on the back. I get the > feeling this box is JUST a floppy drive, not a system. Is it one of these: ebay item 8817737206 From geneb at simpits.com Thu May 25 19:39:32 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:39:32 -0700 Subject: Public archiving--was: BASIC... In-Reply-To: <200605242243290552.54692309@10.0.0.252> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com> <200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> <447533AD.4060900@simpits.com> <200605242243290552.54692309@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44764E44.5050706@simpits.com> > For example, I've got a few CD's from an outfit called i-Mode, called > "Developer Source"--basically a compendium of source code from a whole mess > of computer magazines. I take it that said source is still under copyright > and must be squirreled away until about 2080. Am I right? Will the CD > last that long? Will there still be CD readers in 2080? > > How about some of the old subscription disk publications, like Big Blue > Disk? Fair game to publicly archive or not? > > That GW-BASIC manual as well as several other publications would still be > under copyright--has Microsoft given its consent to republish old manuals? If the material is no longer available commercially and the material is at least 10 years old then I would put it on line. In those rare circumstances where I know the whereabouts of the rights holder, I will take the effort to ask permission first. If denied, then the material never hits the site. I also hold the policy that if the legitimate rights holder contacts me and asks for the material to be removed, I'll do so immediately. This has (if my memory hasn't failed completely) happened only once. In order to save software & documentation for old platforms, it may be necessary to take the stance that it's easier to apologize afterwards than ask permission before hand. g. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu May 25 19:50:31 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:50:31 -0500 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> Don't laugh - I'm serious. I ran across a Advanced Diagnostics cassette tape for an IBM PC 5150. I've never seen such a thing before. Besides the obvious cassette-to-cassette copy (which I'm not equipped to do), how else would one preserve this? A WAV file? Mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 25 20:09:32 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at May 25, 2006 07:50:31 PM Message-ID: <200605260109.k4Q19XRA012662@onyx.spiritone.com> > Don't laugh - I'm serious. > > I ran across a Advanced Diagnostics cassette tape for an IBM PC 5150. > I've never seen such a thing before. Besides the obvious > cassette-to-cassette copy (which I'm not equipped to do), how else would > one preserve this? A WAV file? > > Mike Might be worth seeing what the 8-bit Micro folks use. My thought is hook a good cassette deck up to a PC soundcard. Obviously MP3 would be a bad file choice :^) Zane From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 25 20:36:01 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:36:01 -0700 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44765B81.3010903@msm.umr.edu> Bill Sudbrink wrote: Just so we dont deluge the seller with everyone asking, I just sent him a query about what else he may have. I have dealt with him a couple of times and he is pretty nice. Just don't want to ebay bomb him. If he has anything, I'll send it on to Jay, unless someone else has a burning desire to know. This fellow is in Albuquerque, and is a relative of someone who had a surplus business there, and is picking thru a pile of stuff with what is listed. He has some s-100 stuff right now, including a TEI frame (which I think he sold the cards out of and relisted), and some other cromemco stuff. It varies from day to day. Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 25 20:36:55 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:36:55 -0700 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes Message-ID: > Obviously MP3 would be a bad file choice :^) I beleive this came up several months ago, and MP3s at a reasonable bit rate worked fine. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 20:38:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:38:50 -0700 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200605251838500564.58AF7BE0@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 7:50 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >I ran across a Advanced Diagnostics cassette tape for an IBM PC 5150. >I've never seen such a thing before. Besides the obvious >cassette-to-cassette copy (which I'm not equipped to do), how else would >one preserve this? A WAV file? A plain audio copy (tape-to-tape) should be fine--the format of these things is fairly well documented, so there's no mystery. You might, however, make a copy of the tape using a 5150 to read it and save the data in each tape block as a file (since there's no standard for saving 5150 tapes that I know of). With the data, the original tape can easily be recreated, if desired. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 25 20:47:55 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:47:55 -0700 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> Message-ID: <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Don't laugh - I'm serious. > > I ran across a Advanced Diagnostics cassette tape for an IBM PC 5150. > I've never seen such a thing before. Besides the obvious > cassette-to-cassette copy (which I'm not equipped to do), how else would > one preserve this? A WAV file? Sorry, I'm not sure whether you are saying this is an *audio* cassette or a *data* cassette. Data cassettes had servo/clock tracks recorded on them to retrieve the data -- i.e. I doubt you will be able to read such a cassette without a data cassette drive. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 20:45:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:45:20 -0700 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) In-Reply-To: References: <01b701c68048$1d7b2c50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200605251845200306.58B56E43@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 5:03 PM Paxton Hoag wrote: >The U07 box sounds like the external drive for a Xerox 820 computer >system. There should be room for two full height floppies or a single >floppy and an 8 inch hard drive. They have 37 pin connectors if I >remember correctly. If the floppy drives stand so the slots are vertical, then this sounds like an 820 external drive box (I use one to hold a couple of drives). The drives that I've usually found inside are Shugart SA-800s--nothing special. I've put some Siemens DS drives in mine. The cable coming out of the thing contains orange and yellow wires in a black jacket and the 37-pin male connector on the end is diecast zinc. On the other hand, if your box is about 2 feet tall and has two 8" drives with their slots oriented horizontally, you may well have a Xerox 8010 Star. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 25 21:00:07 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:00:07 -0700 Subject: Books Message-ID: <44766127.8090504@DakotaCom.Net> I *think* most of the books listed so far have found homes. I'm awaiting confirmation on some. I'll dig through the list to see what has NOT been requested and repost them with the other books not yet listed. Thanks! --don From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu May 25 21:12:37 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:12:37 -0500 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> Don Y wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Don't laugh - I'm serious. >> >> I ran across a Advanced Diagnostics cassette tape for an IBM PC 5150. >> I've never seen such a thing before. Besides the obvious >> cassette-to-cassette copy (which I'm not equipped to do), how else >> would one preserve this? A WAV file? > > Sorry, I'm not sure whether you are saying this is an *audio* > cassette or a *data* cassette. Data cassettes had servo/clock > tracks recorded on them to retrieve the data -- i.e. I doubt > you will be able to read such a cassette without a data cassette > drive. > > Ok, I need some education. On other home type machines, a standard shoebox cassette player was used. I assume this is the same on the PC5150. (This is the cassette interface on the motherboard.) What would be an example of a different setup? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu May 25 21:11:34 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:11:34 -0500 Subject: DN10000s Message-ID: > It was an Apollo-designed processor. Like the POWER, a multichip-setup. Known internally as the A88k (the DOMAIN distros were suffixed A88k, also, so you could tell.) The "Great Microprocessors" website (http://www.sasktelwebsite.net/jbayko/cpu5.html#Sec5Part2) has a small writeup on PRISM. The big problem with the 10ks were that they were big, power-hungry, didn't support much software (HP didn't even release some bugfixes reliably for a88k), and the processor bus (X-bus) terminators tended to burn out. No, I haven't used one, I thought about getting one a while ago and started getting info. Haven't found one, though. >> No idea why they're so rare and forgotten about Apollo stuff in general seems to be getting into the "rare and forgotten about" category now - strange considering their predominance during the '80s. As the uncommon sibling of the forgotten family, with no major movie/book credits, the DN10k is slipping into obscurity. Apollo should have open-documented their stuff. Pity that the Alpha is now in the same boat- the race to mediocrity continues. From rcini at optonline.net Thu May 25 21:32:47 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:32:47 -0400 Subject: iCom Attache floppy schematics Message-ID: <004901c6806c$ad2da1b0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I bought a couple iCom 5.25" external floppy cases on eBay but they come unassembled (i.e., no internal wiring harnesses). Does anyone have a copy of the schematic that they could scan for me? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ http://www.altair32.com/ /************************************************************/ From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 25 21:44:17 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:44:17 -0700 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> Message-ID: <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> Michael B. Brutman wrote: >>> Don't laugh - I'm serious. >>> >>> I ran across a Advanced Diagnostics cassette tape for an IBM PC 5150. >>> I've never seen such a thing before. Besides the obvious >>> cassette-to-cassette copy (which I'm not equipped to do), how else >>> would one preserve this? A WAV file? >> >> Sorry, I'm not sure whether you are saying this is an *audio* >> cassette or a *data* cassette. Data cassettes had servo/clock >> tracks recorded on them to retrieve the data -- i.e. I doubt >> you will be able to read such a cassette without a data cassette >> drive. >> >> > > Ok, I need some education. On other home type machines, a standard > shoebox cassette player was used. I assume this is the same on the > PC5150. (This is the cassette interface on the motherboard.) Yes, this is just a simple FM scheme for storing data *as* audio. I am unfamiliar with the PC5150 so couldn't comment on that... > What would be an example of a different setup? There are (were?) cassette tape drives that used special cassettes (that looked just like the traditional "Compact Cassette" used for audio). These had a special servo/clock track recorded on the media. This track was essential to the proper operation of the media in the drive. E.g., BULK erase an audio cassette and you can still use it in the first scenario; in the second scenario, you have rendered the tape completely useless (you can't rerecord the clock track with the drive that is used to read/write the tape) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 25 21:48:43 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:48:43 -0700 Subject: DN10000s Message-ID: > Apollo should have open-documented their stuff. Yup.. A huge problem for Apollo historical preservation. I don't even know what might still exist inside HP for the early stuff. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 22:01:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:01:06 -0700 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200605252001060910.58FACDE6@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 9:12 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >Ok, I need some education. On other home type machines, a standard >shoebox cassette player was used. I assume this is the same on the >PC5150. (This is the cassette interface on the motherboard.) > >What would be an example of a different setup? F'rinstance, there were cassette replacements made for paper tape gear, which recorded NRZ data digitally on a cassette tape. These things usually had extra functionality, such as high-speed search. In these, a steady tape velocity isn't particularly important, unlike an audio recorder. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu May 25 22:14:05 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:14:05 -0500 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> Don Y wrote: > Yes, this is just a simple FM scheme for storing data *as* audio. > I am unfamiliar with the PC5150 so couldn't comment on that... > That is as I understood it .. it's just an audio tape with data encoded as tones. (I believe the data rate for the cassette interface on a 5150 is 1200 bps.) So in that case, normal audio gear would work. Ah, now where to find a classic shoebox recorder ... :-) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu May 25 22:25:20 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:25:20 -0700 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> Message-ID: <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Don Y wrote: > >> Yes, this is just a simple FM scheme for storing data *as* audio. >> I am unfamiliar with the PC5150 so couldn't comment on that... > > That is as I understood it .. it's just an audio tape with data encoded > as tones. (I believe the data rate for the cassette interface on a 5150 > is 1200 bps.) So in that case, normal audio gear would work. I think this was once called the "Kansas City Standard" (??) > Ah, now where to find a classic shoebox recorder ... :-) From aw288 at osfn.org Thu May 25 22:25:59 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DN10000s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If someone found me a bit of IBM big iron, I would dig out my 10K and trade it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 22:29:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:29:43 -0700 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605252029430840.59150075@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 10:17 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> I used to say "MOST" soft-sectored floppies. Now, I'm not even sure of >> that. > >[...] > >> RE-WRITING to Epson Geneva PX-8 is awkward (67.5 TPI) Isn't this just what's laid down by a standard Sony 0AD-1 floppy drive? (600 RPM, IIRC and the original 3.5" drive, not the 300 RPM nonsense that we now have). >Talking of oddball floppies (and Epson), I haev, somewhere, an Epson >thing about the size of the TF20, but labelled BM-5 (IIRC). It contains a >single 5.25" drive. Now for the odd part. The cables to that drive look >like ST412 _hard_ drive cables (i.e. a 34 pin and a 20 pin connector). >The controller board, which has a parallel interface connector back to >the host (pesumably it goes with some special I/O card for a QX10 that I >don't have) has a hard disk controller chipset on it. But the drive sure >looks like an overcomplicated floppy drive. > >What do I have here, and what sort of disks does it use? Does the floppy have two positioner motors (one coarse, one fine)? If so, maybe what you've got is a Drivetek drive. But Fred would recognize one of those, so it must not be that. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 25 22:32:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:32:07 -0700 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605252032070341.591730FD@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 8:25 PM Don Y wrote: >> That is as I understood it .. it's just an audio tape with data encoded >> as tones. (I believe the data rate for the cassette interface on a 5150 >> is 1200 bps.) So in that case, normal audio gear would work. The IBM format is pretty well defined in the Tech Ref for the 5150 (and in the BIOS listing). It was also discussed here a few months ago, so it's in the archives. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 25 22:48:33 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:48:33 -0500 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <200605260109.k4Q19XRA012662@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605260109.k4Q19XRA012662@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44767A91.8090408@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Don't laugh - I'm serious. >> >> I ran across a Advanced Diagnostics cassette tape for an IBM PC 5150. >> I've never seen such a thing before. Besides the obvious >> cassette-to-cassette copy (which I'm not equipped to do), how else would >> one preserve this? A WAV file? >> >> Mike > > Might be worth seeing what the 8-bit Micro folks use. My thought is hook a > good cassette deck up to a PC soundcard. Obviously MP3 would be a bad file > choice :^) :-) But that's exactly what I've done and seen others done. If you're a purist, you capture the tape at 24-bit/48KHz so that you can feed it without quality loss to the target machine. If you're more limited by space, or want to do some "free cleanup" at the same time, you digitize at 16-bit 32KHz and that also works. I know of at least one person who has repaired bad tapes by grabbing the file at 24/48 and then quantizing to an extreme level (like, 8-bit 22KHz) and also increases the volume a bit, both of which more clearly "presses" the waveform closer to the digital signal that created it. He writes that to a tape copy, and where the original won't load, the copy loads just fine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu May 25 22:56:04 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:56:04 -0500 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <200605252032070341.591730FD@10.0.0.252> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> <200605252032070341.591730FD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44767C54.9020605@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/25/2006 at 8:25 PM Don Y wrote: > > >>> That is as I understood it .. it's just an audio tape with data encoded > >>> as tones. (I believe the data rate for the cassette interface on a 5150 > >>> is 1200 bps.) So in that case, normal audio gear would work. > > The IBM format is pretty well defined in the Tech Ref for the 5150 (and in > the BIOS listing). It was also discussed here a few months ago, so it's in > the archives. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > The format isn't in question .. the question is the proper way to preserve it digitally. Nobody seems to have recoiled in horror yet, so I guess a WAV file (mono, not stereo) with a sufficient sample rate should cover it. Mike From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 25 23:04:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:04:48 -0500 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com><44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com><44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com><44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net><200605252032070341.591730FD@10.0.0.252> <44767C54.9020605@brutman.com> Message-ID: <004f01c68079$888dcb70$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Patch data for a synth is a similar format, normally supplied (on older gear) as audio tapes. I have many times sampled those tapes as a wav file with a soundblaster card, played the files back - and the synth "reads" them just fine. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 26 00:34:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:34:57 -0700 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <44767C54.9020605@brutman.com> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> <200605252032070341.591730FD@10.0.0.252> <44767C54.9020605@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200605252234570279.5987A4F2@10.0.0.252> On 5/25/2006 at 10:56 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >The format isn't in question .. the question is the proper way to >preserve it digitally. I'm kind of new at this "preservation" thing, so allow me to ask--is the object to preserve the tape in audio form, or the data contained thereon? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 26 00:40:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:40:25 -0700 Subject: Someone looking for a QX-10 Message-ID: <200605252240250741.598CA7F6@10.0.0.252> For those of you in the Madison, WI area, I noted the following on Craigslist: http://madison.craigslist.org/sys/155745138.html It's a free QX-10 with some goodies. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 26 04:42:43 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 21:42:43 +1200 Subject: Looking for specs for a Misubishi 82C55AP-2 Message-ID: I have data sheets on the generic 82C55, what I'm looking for is specifically the speed rating for the Mitsubishi 82C55AP-2... the reason it matters is that the SBC6120 needs a 5MHz part, and many 82C55s are 2MHz. Thanks for any pointers. -ethan From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Fri May 26 05:18:56 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:18:56 +0200 Subject: Looking for specs for a Misubishi 82C55AP-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4476D610.1040807@ais.fraunhofer.de> Ethan Dicks schrieb: > I have data sheets on the generic 82C55, what I'm looking for is > specifically the speed rating for the Mitsubishi 82C55AP-2... the > reason it matters is that the SBC6120 needs a 5MHz part, and many > 82C55s are 2MHz. I haven't found an explicit datasheet for Mitsubishi, but: typically, the -2 means 2MHz for other manufacturers, and since there appears to be a 82c55AP-3 and AP-5 available as out-of-stock part, I suspect that the -2 also means 2MHz for Mitsubishi. So you likely got a 2MHz part. Fortunately, 82c55-5 chips are not so rare (see unicornelectronics, for instance). -- Holger Veit From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 26 05:27:02 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 22:27:02 +1200 Subject: Looking for specs for a Misubishi 82C55AP-2 In-Reply-To: <4476D610.1040807@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4476D610.1040807@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On 5/26/06, Holger Veit wrote: > Ethan Dicks schrieb: > > I have data sheets on the generic 82C55, what I'm looking for is > > specifically the speed rating for the Mitsubishi 82C55AP-2... the > > reason it matters is that the SBC6120 needs a 5MHz part, and many > > 82C55s are 2MHz. > I haven't found an explicit datasheet for Mitsubishi, but: > typically, the -2 means 2MHz for other manufacturers, and since there > appears to be a 82c55AP-3 and AP-5 available as out-of-stock part, I suspect > that the -2 also means 2MHz for Mitsubishi. Very likely, but I have a dim memory of a vendor (don't recall which one) that doesn't append the speed rating explicitly, it's a -1 -2 -3 thing where you have to have the datasheet to cross-reference the particular speed in MHz. I was hoping that Mitsubishi might be the one. -ethan From kelly at catcorner.org Fri May 26 08:37:29 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:37:29 -0400 Subject: Looking for specs for a Misubishi 82C55AP-2 Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E37403@MEOW.catcorner.org> > I have data sheets on the generic 82C55, what I'm looking for is > specifically the speed rating for the Mitsubishi 82C55AP-2... the > reason it matters is that the SBC6120 needs a 5MHz part, and many > 82C55s are 2MHz. http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/32527/TOSHIBA/TMP82C55AP-2.html claims to be the toshiba part with the same number. Kelly From RMeenaks at olf.com Fri May 26 09:51:29 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 10:51:29 -0400 Subject: VME 3U to 6U adapters Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D185575324DB@cpexchange.olf.com> Hi, Anyone have several of these (8-10) or better yet a 3U-based VME chassis? I want to install some 3U-based transputer boards and I currently only have a 6U chassis.. Thanks, Ram PS: Before you ask, they really arent VME boards, but have the same form factor. So I have to take things apart for me to do this... Ram From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 26 10:06:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 08:06:16 -0700 Subject: Looking for specs for a Misubishi 82C55AP-2 In-Reply-To: <4476D610.1040807@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4476D610.1040807@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <200605260806160289.5B92B2BF@10.0.0.252> On 5/26/2006 at 12:18 PM Holger Veit wrote: >typically, the -2 means 2MHz for other manufacturers, and since there >appears to be a 82c55AP-3 and AP-5 available as out-of-stock part, I suspect >that the -2 also means 2MHz for Mitsubishi. So you likely got a 2MHz part. >Fortunately, 82c55-5 chips are not so rare (see unicornelectronics, for instance). Since I was in the same position a couple of months ago, there is a glaring exception to this: NEC. The uPD 8255AC-2 is rated at 5 MHz and the 8255AC-5 is rated at (ready for this?) 4 Mhz! Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri May 26 10:26:49 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:26:49 -0400 Subject: OT(ish): Pre-Sun Cobalt Raq3i PS question Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060526111050.01c01940@mail.30below.com> I'm 'refurbishing' a "nearly ontopic"[1] (yet still kewl) pre-Sun 1U Cobalt Raq3i system[2] and as it's not going to have a rotating media system in it, I was wondering: Does anyone here have any idea if (and if so, how much) the minimum current draw might be on the 12V line? The motherboard is drawing around .27 to .3 A, and I know most "normal" PC power supplies have a 1A minimum on 12V. However, there's very little that's "normal" about this critter. I've googled for any type of specs for this critter, and for actual *hardware* information, there's very little out there, I figgered I'd ask the biggest group of hardware junkies I know of. ;-) *Of course* all replies offlist, please, as this is off-topic. Thanks a lot! Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] - about 7 years old, IIRC - I'm changing to a little faster processor, set it up to boot from Compact Flash media, and making a small RAM-only DNS server out of the critter... [2] It's not standard PC schtuff, as there's *no* video (but will show POST info on the serial port) and has integrated SCSI on a *very* small motherboard... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri May 26 11:39:13 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:39:13 -0400 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605261239.13552.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 25 May 2006 11:25 pm, Don Y wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Don Y wrote: > >> Yes, this is just a simple FM scheme for storing data *as* audio. > >> I am unfamiliar with the PC5150 so couldn't comment on that... > > > > That is as I understood it .. it's just an audio tape with data encoded > > as tones. (I believe the data rate for the cassette interface on a 5150 > > is 1200 bps.) So in that case, normal audio gear would work. > > I think this was once called the "Kansas City Standard" (??) I thought KSC was a 300-baud standard...? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 26 12:11:45 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:11:45 -0500 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <200605252234570279.5987A4F2@10.0.0.252> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> <200605252032070341.591730FD@10.0.0.252> <44767C54.9020605@brutman.com> <200605252234570279.5987A4F2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <447736D1.90909@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/25/2006 at 10:56 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> The format isn't in question .. the question is the proper way to >> preserve it digitally. > > I'm kind of new at this "preservation" thing, so allow me to ask--is the > object to preserve the tape in audio form, or the data contained thereon? By preserving the first, you preserve the second. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 26 13:00:17 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" Message-ID: <200605261800.k4QI0HMa028353@onyx.spiritone.com> I was looking on eBay yesterday to see what is available in the way of SATA Firewire or USB external enclosures when I ran across a very interesting device: http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-2-0-to-IDE-SATA-Serial-ATA-Hard-drive-Adapter-kit_W0QQitemZ8817862204QQcategoryZ41911QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Does anyone have any experience with devices such as this? It looks like it might be a good way to recover data from old (on-topic) IDE HD's. My real interest would be using it as part of a backup device. Simply buy 250GB SATA HD's, plug one in, run a backup to it, and then put it someplace safe. Not really as reliable as a good SDLT-220 drive and tapes, but definitely cheaper. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 26 13:00:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:00:58 -0700 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <447736D1.90909@oldskool.org> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> <200605252032070341.591730FD@10.0.0.252> <44767C54.9020605@brutman.com> <200605252234570279.5987A4F2@10.0.0.252> <447736D1.90909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200605261100580997.5C32AC98@10.0.0.252> On 5/26/2006 at 12:11 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >By preserving the first, you preserve the second. This follows only if (1) your preservation of the analog audio is perfect and (2) the knowledge to use the information remains. The digital information, whether printed on paper or burned on CD is the essence of what was on the tape, regardless of whatever the medium was. So, I'd think that the digital preservation is the important thing and that the audio is just a detail. The audio's the bottle; the data's the wine. The bottle really imparts (other than the printing on the label) nothing useful to the contents. Or so I think. Cheers, Chuck From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri May 26 13:26:06 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 20:26:06 +0200 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted) In-Reply-To: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> References: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> I'm sorry for the quite long post (for the tiny question in the end), but this again was one of the experiences that made me somewhat doubt my choice of hobbies... ;-( Saturday, May 20, 2006, 2:30:05 AM, I wrote: > I've got an mid-80s SGI IRIS in my collection, an IRIS 3130 in Control > Data skins. What I'm looking for are boot or installation tapes that > allow me to rebuild a working OS installation on one of the more or > less compatible ESDI drives I've got. This week I had the chance to do some more work on the resurrection project. I managed to get some closer look at the boards and their configuration (I'll put the DIP-switch/Jumper settings online for comparison/documentation). I also wanted to get a closer look at the software side so I fired the beast up. Worked like the charm, then started to smell like a pile of burning tyres. Not good. I pulled all plugs and as far as I can see the machine was still operating when shutdown that way. As far as the current inspection goes (pointing my nose at things), it was the PSU that went belly up (what a surprise, it's an SGI after all). It was probably all good luck that I figured out how to boot the installer myself instead of going upstairs(!) to use Google. Anyway... life goes on: Now I need to dismantle the whole beast to get to the PSU and then there is the final question... will I find a replacement if it's FUBAR? Probably I can get an Power Series (IRIS4D) PSU to work - at least these look pretty similar. If I get the pinout right, it shouldn't do much harm if the PSU is stronger I guess (say 1500W instead of 1000W, right?). -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From melamy at earthlink.net Fri May 26 13:37:04 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" Message-ID: <8828698.1148668624653.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> looks good except for the $12.95 shipping charges... www.geeks.com has external cases that do USB 2.0. They have a SATA/IDE version and just an IDE version. Their prices are too bad and they do not charge as much as this guy does for shipping. WD has a 320gig IDE drive on sale at OfficeMax for $99.99 right now. best regards, Steve -----Original Message----- >From: "Zane H. Healy" From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri May 26 13:58:51 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:58:51 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <8828698.1148668624653.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060526145539.05540e58@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Steve Thatcher may have mentioned these words: >looks good except for the $12.95 shipping charges... They do that to avoid a huge hit from ePay's charges... All in all, about $22. USD, not a bad deal as the last ones our store ordered were nearly $40. USD, and didn't have the SATA dongle. Not a bad price whatsoever. I've used 'em, and they're pretty handy overall. I prefer firewire, but I've not seen such a widely adapted dongle that can be used on firewire; tho anything "permanent" external that I build for that purpose is FW, as it goes one heckuva lot faster.... ... and don't start quoting numbers without doing the benchmarks... ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 14:11:58 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:11:58 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <200605261800.k4QI0HMa028353@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200605261800.k4QI0HMa028353@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060526135916.05303f50@mail> At 01:00 PM 5/26/2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Does anyone have any experience with devices such as this? It looks like it >might be a good way to recover data from old (on-topic) IDE HD's. >My real interest would be using it as part of a backup device. I use one (well, just IDE, not SATA) all the time. I'd bought two types from from Geeks.com. One's just a USB to IDE dongle. I don't think I've ever used it because the second one was more useful: it had a case, a switch, and its own power supply to feed the IDE device. First thing I did was take it out of its case. It has Firewire and USB; I use it on FireWire. It's handy for moving data and temporarily mounting drives without rebooting Windows, or for temporarily adding a CD/DVD burner to other computers. Very handy: plug in the drive, power it on, move data, "eject hardware" to dismount under Windows, then power down. I've used it with notebook HDs using an adapter, too. This seems to be a perennial topic, though - I'll save some time and remind us that what we really wanted was a way to go from USB to and from old floppy interfaces. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 26 15:28:18 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060526145539.05540e58@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at May 26, 2006 02:58:51 PM Message-ID: <200605262028.k4QKSI0m031817@onyx.spiritone.com> > Rumor has it that Steve Thatcher may have mentioned these words: > >looks good except for the $12.95 shipping charges... > > They do that to avoid a huge hit from ePay's charges... > > All in all, about $22. USD, not a bad deal as the last ones our store > ordered were nearly $40. USD, and didn't have the SATA dongle. > > Not a bad price whatsoever. The link was also the first example I found, I think there are people selling for more and less on eBay. > I've used 'em, and they're pretty handy overall. I prefer firewire, but > I've not seen such a widely adapted dongle that can be used on firewire; > tho anything "permanent" external that I build for that purpose is FW, as > it goes one heckuva lot faster.... > > ... and don't start quoting numbers without doing the benchmarks... > ;-) > > Laterz, > "Merch" You won't have me trying to say USB 2.0 is better than even FW400 :^) My external storage is all Firewire or SCSI. Though I desperatly need to buy a new 2-Drive FW enclosure as the last gave up the ghost the last time I powered it on. These USB widgets look great, as they'll let me do what I've been doing with a single drive IDE-Firewire enclosure. It would be nice if they were Firewire instead of USB 2.0, but for what I want, at the price, they tend to be a better solution. I'm just looking at them as a way to backup data. As a Firewire inclosure and removable drive trays is going to cost the equivalent of 2-3 250GB drives... I also see that SATA-Firewire enclosures are available, I'll probably pick one of those up one of these days, as going forward, SATA looks to be the better choice. Sadly I don't seem to find any of the SATA-Firewire boards themselves as they'd be the way to go. Though I have found SATA-IDE boards. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 26 16:01:45 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <200605261239.13552.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net> <200605261239.13552.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060526140007.X98494@shell.lmi.net> > > > That is as I understood it .. it's just an audio tape with data encoded > > > as tones. (I believe the data rate for the cassette interface on a 5150 > > > is 1200 bps.) So in that case, normal audio gear would work. > > I think this was once called the "Kansas City Standard" (??) I doubt that the 5150 is Kansas City Standard. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 26 17:04:59 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library Message-ID: <200605262204.k4QM4xSx001476@onyx.spiritone.com> A good chunk of my collection of documentation will be going to a "Historical Resource Center" (aka Library) that is being built in the area. There is also a good chance that at least some of the hardware will eventually go there as well. I'm currently planning on starting to clear out some of the documentation starting tomorrow, as I desperatly need the storage space. As they don't have a building yet, it will be moving from my storage, to thier storage. Does anyone have any advice as to what kind of stuff should and shouldn't be in a "Computer History" section? Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 16:54:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 22:54:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at May 25, 6 09:12:37 pm Message-ID: > Ok, I need some education. On other home type machines, a standard > shoebox cassette player was used. I assume this is the same on the > PC5150. (This is the cassette interface on the motherboard.) Yes. On the 5150, there was another 5 pin DIN socket next to the keyboard connector. The pinout was the same as a TRS-80 (M1, M3, M4, Coco) cassette connecotr, and you were, apparently, supposed to buy a cable and recorder from the local Radio Shack. The data format is in the techref (I've typed it into this list several times, it should be in the archives!). At the bit level it's very similar to the TRS-80 1500 baud scheeme (!). > > What would be an example of a different setup? Well, the HP9830 for one. It uses a Compact Cassette containing a tape with a higher (I think) coercivity. The whole width of the tape is used in one direction (you don't flip the tape over to record the other side). Two tracks are recorded on the tape -- a flux transition on one of them is a '1' bit, a flux transtion on the other is a '0' bit, and transitions on both tracks simultaneously is a byte marker. Some machines used similar tapes, but recorded a clock and data track in each direction. Amongst other devices to use 'digital' cassettes are the Facit 4208 (an RS232-interefaced tape drive), DEC TU60, Some Philips thing that I forget the number of (P830????), and an option for the Texas Silent 700 terminal. The latter was a chassis that mounted on top of the Silent 700 and contianed 2 cassette drives and control electronics. They were intended as a replacement for paper tape -- you could record onto either tape from the line or from the keyboard, play either tape back to the line or printer, copy from one tape to the other, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 16:56:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 22:56:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <200605252001060910.58FACDE6@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 25, 6 08:01:06 pm Message-ID: > >What would be an example of a different setup? > > F'rinstance, there were cassette replacements made for paper tape gear, > which recorded NRZ data digitally on a cassette tape. These things usually > had extra functionality, such as high-speed search. In these, a steady > tape velocity isn't particularly important, unlike an audio recorder. Indeed. All audio cassette recorders use a capstan and pinch roller drive to maintain constant tape speed. Many digital cassette drives don't -- they just drive the tape spools. The HP9830 is certainly of the latter type. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 17:00:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 23:00:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at May 25, 6 10:14:05 pm Message-ID: > That is as I understood it .. it's just an audio tape with data encoded > as tones. (I believe the data rate for the cassette interface on a 5150 > is 1200 bps.) So in that case, normal audio gear would work. >From what I remember (and I'll dig out the Techref if anyone needs to know for sure), the 5150 used an encoding scheme where a '1' is recorded as 1 cycle of a particular frequency, and a '0' is recorded as 1 cycle of a different frequency. This means the bit rate is not constant. I think it's around 1500 bps on average, though. > > Ah, now where to find a classic shoebox recorder ... :-) Are they rare, or something? Heck, I found _both_ of the Philips portable upright reel-to-reel machines I'd been looking for in a couple of months on E-overpay. Surely cassette recorders turn up there too (I've never looked...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 17:02:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 23:02:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605252029430840.59150075@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 25, 6 08:29:43 pm Message-ID: > >Talking of oddball floppies (and Epson), I haev, somewhere, an Epson > >thing about the size of the TF20, but labelled BM-5 (IIRC). It contains a > >single 5.25" drive. Now for the odd part. The cables to that drive look > >like ST412 _hard_ drive cables (i.e. a 34 pin and a 20 pin connector). > >The controller board, which has a parallel interface connector back to > >the host (pesumably it goes with some special I/O card for a QX10 that I > >don't have) has a hard disk controller chipset on it. But the drive sure > >looks like an overcomplicated floppy drive. > > > >What do I have here, and what sort of disks does it use? > > Does the floppy have two positioner motors (one coarse, one fine)? If so, Not that I rememnber, but it's been a long time since I've been inside that box. At the momnet I _think_ it's hiding between an Acorn A310 and a DECmate II, with a handful of 35mm cameras on top, so it's not going to be easy to get out to check. > maybe what you've got is a Drivetek drive. But Fred would recognize one of I am, however, pretty sure the drive mechanism was made by Epson. > those, so it must not be that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 17:05:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 23:05:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <200605252234570279.5987A4F2@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 25, 6 10:34:57 pm Message-ID: > I'm kind of new at this "preservation" thing, so allow me to ask--is the > object to preserve the tape in audio form, or the data contained thereon? Well, since you can create one from the other (given the audio singal, you can load it into a 5150 and turn it into data, given the data you could create the audio signal), does it really matter which you preserve? -tony From dancohoe at oxford.net Fri May 26 17:34:26 2006 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:34:26 -0400 Subject: various terminals & printers available In-Reply-To: <20060526140007.X98494@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <004001c68114$8c045120$6501a8c0@wcruz> I received this message today from an acquaintance who hates to see things destroyed.... ........ Those old printers/terminals are now gradually being stripped and recycled. Best Regards,.......... Wang wide carriage line printer 2235 GONE Volker-Craig #vc-410 video terminal / keyboard NCR #1101-1098 video terminal Anderson-Jacobsen AJ510 video terminal ADDS Regent 40 video terminal ADDS Envoy portable video terminal with internal acoustic modem Centronics 353 line printer GOING Centronics 704 line printer Control Data 353 line printer Anderson Jacobsen AJ860 printing terminal (end) Is there any interest in any of this stuff? I might be able to bring items to VCF Midwest or hold on to them until some good shipment plan could be worked out. They are in Hamilton, Ontario, but I could get them to Buffalo for shipment. Cost is zero + shipping & packing. Dan -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.1/348 - Release Date: 5/25/06 From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri May 26 18:09:00 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 16:09:00 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" Message-ID: Zane H. Healy wrote: I also see that SATA-Firewire enclosures are available, I'll probably pick one of those up one of these days, as going forward, SATA looks to be the better choice. ---------------------------------- Better or not, most OEMs are driving hard to eliminate IDE. SATA gives a reduction in cable costs, connector costs, test fixtures, etc. This can be a big saving on a large array. Plus less physical cable space needed, and a small but significant power savings in drivers. Finally, it gets rid of some of the skew problems for parallel transfers as the speed ramped up. ATA was getting so bad that cable length was only 8 inches at the highest transfer speed. Here at WD, many of our new generation products will be offered in SATA only. Whether USB is better/worse than Firewire - I tend to avoid religious arguments. And interfaces are not static anyway. The portable device market has lead to new generations of interfaces being created. CF+ and CF-II are widely used. And in the background being prepped for the future, CE-ATA, a simplied ATA (only 8 commands). And it has variations using MMC as a physical layer, and new layers including 1, 4 and 8 bit serial interfaces. Ain't life grand? Billy From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri May 26 18:50:47 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 00:50:47 +0100 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: <200605041601.42935.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200605041601.42935.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <145c4f2d4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200605041601.42935.rtellason at blazenet.net> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > The only problem with it the last time I fired it up was that the > fan was a bit noisy, which I probably should take care of at some point with > a drop of oil in the bearings... If it's a standard fan, it's probably better (in terms of time spent on repairs) to swap it for a brand new fan. The old one is no doubt full of dust, dirt and other gunk - re-lubricating it might help for now, but the dirt's still going to be rubbing at the bearing surfaces... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G VF+UniPod philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 1G+180G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 26 19:28:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:28:33 -0600 Subject: DN10000s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 25 May 2006 23:25:59 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > If someone found me a bit of IBM big iron, I would dig out my 10K and > trade it. Does it have the PHIGS software? You had to buy that extra... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 26 19:29:08 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: from "Billy Pettit" at May 26, 2006 04:09:00 PM Message-ID: <200605270029.k4R0T8vQ005056@onyx.spiritone.com> > Better or not, most OEMs are driving hard to eliminate IDE. SATA gives a > reduction in cable costs, connector costs, test fixtures, etc. This can be > a big saving on a large array. Plus less physical cable space needed, and a > small but significant power savings in drivers. Finally, it gets rid of > some of the skew problems for parallel transfers as the speed ramped up. ATA > was getting so bad that cable length was only 8 inches at the highest > transfer speed. I personally have no clue as to which is the better interface (given the choice, I'd go with SCSI), as I've not found the time to research the issue. However, from a cabling standpoint I prefer SATA, plugging and unplugging a SATA drive is just plain better than IDE from everything I've seen, and the smaller cables are better for cooling. Plus you can get things such as the 10k RPM WD Raptor's and the 500GB drives that are starting to become available. All in all, if I was building a new system and had to choose between SATA and IDE, I'd go SATA. The only downside I see to SATA is that some of the neat gadgets that are available for IDE aren't available for SATA. Right now for the project I'm looking at the "dongle" device for, I have a large investment in IDE drives (I've purchased those but not an enclosure), but going forward I want to be able to just purchase SATA drives. Zane From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri May 26 19:46:18 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:46:18 -0500 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4477A15A.5070809@brutman.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Are they rare, or something? Heck, I found _both_ of the Philips portable > upright reel-to-reel machines I'd been looking for in a couple of months on > E-overpay. Surely cassette recorders turn up there too (I've never looked...) > > -tony I don't know. I haven't started looking. But I'm quite sure that I haven't seen a new mono (not stereo) shoebox player/recorder in a very, very long time. Heck, I don't even have stereo equipment that plays cassettes. All I need is one good playback, so I'm not too concerned, But in the last 20 years CD has supplanted cassette, and I can't say that I'm upset. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 26 20:28:00 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 20:28:00 -0500 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) References: Message-ID: <00c701c6812c$cb662150$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bill Sudbrink wrote.... > Is it one of these: ebay item 8817737206 Yup, that's what it is! Seems like I have an external drive box and no computer to go with it. I haven't opened the cover of this box, but from looking through the vents it would appear to have a 8" floppy and a hard drive. I've checked with the guy who gave it to me to see if he has the display/computer to go with it. We'll see. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 26 20:35:34 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 20:35:34 -0500 Subject: VCF / Midwest References: <000901c67fb5$f6d01d00$4f00a8c0@main> Message-ID: <00de01c6812d$d9ebab90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Paul wrote.... >I am considering attending the VCF/Midwest in July as a vendor. Awesome, the more the merrier! I plan on being there. > Among the items I can bring are PDP8, and PDPll unibus and qbus, > documentation, boards, boxes, power supplies, and other options. Also, > RKO5's, RLO2's, RX01, and RX02's, and parts. I'd be interested in unibus -11 cards of various types for my hopefully-running-some-day 11/45 :) Could use a spare set of cards for an RK05, spare heads, etc. > Several hundred various cassette tapes are also here, along with DEC > media, > some of which contains software. Oh, I'd be interested in some good condition Dectape II cartridges, with or without software on them, for my 11/44. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 26 20:36:52 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 20:36:52 -0500 Subject: BASIC... References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44752B2A.1050404@simpits.com><200605242107470576.54118571@10.0.0.252> <447533AD.4060900@simpits.com> Message-ID: <00ed01c6812e$083c3500$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Gene wrote.... > I've noticed that the Bitsavers archive doesn't have _any_ > Heathkit documentation. Why is that? The same reason there's no Data General docs. The current owners of the docs haven't given permission. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 26 20:53:32 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 13:53:32 +1200 Subject: Looking for specs for a Misubishi 82C55AP-2 In-Reply-To: <200605260806160289.5B92B2BF@10.0.0.252> References: <4476D610.1040807@ais.fraunhofer.de> <200605260806160289.5B92B2BF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 5/27/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/26/2006 at 12:18 PM Holger Veit wrote: > >typically, the -2 means 2MHz for other manufacturers... > I suspect that the -2 also means 2MHz for Mitsubishi. So you likely got a 2MHz part. > > Since I was in the same position a couple of months ago, there is a glaring > exception to this: NEC. > > The uPD 8255AC-2 is rated at 5 MHz and the 8255AC-5 is rated at (ready for > this?) 4 Mhz! Thanks, Chuck. That was almost certainly the particular vendor I was dimly remembering. So it seems that the Mitsubishi "-2" parts are most likely 2MHz, but I'll keep an eye out for NEC "-2" parts. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 27 00:02:52 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 23:02:52 -0600 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <4477A15A.5070809@brutman.com> References: <4477A15A.5070809@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4477DD7C.9010906@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > All I need is one good playback, so I'm not too concerned, But in the > last 20 years CD has supplanted cassette, and I can't say that I'm upset. What about the LP!!!! What I find with the CD's it is hard to find the Odd CD's anymore that came out when CD's were first introduced. When I had a Coco I found cassete tapes where very unrelable but then the Coco cassete recorder was not great quality. From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 27 00:08:27 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 00:08:27 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon "The Compass" newsletters online Message-ID: <4477DECB.8040903@pacbell.net> I scanned all five years of "The Compass" newsletter. Each year has 4-6 issues; each issue had typically 40 pages. They are now online as image-only PDFs, about 4-5 MB per year. http://www.thebattles.net/oddments/oddments.html#northstar The first few years were a snap to scan, as they were not bound. The last three years, about 600 pages total, were a drag since I didn't want to cut up the issues and had to scan the pages one at a time on my flatbed scanner. I'm just glad they quit publishing after five years. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 27 00:17:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 22:17:28 -0700 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted) In-Reply-To: <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> References: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <200605262217280652.016A36CF@10.0.0.252> Given the topic of smoke, what do folks keep around for fire extinguishers for their gear? I've still got a few big Halon-charged units whose gauges say they're fine, but I know that Halon's a no-no because it eats a hole in the sky. So what's the current "safe" electronics fire extinguisher look like nowadays? Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat May 27 01:28:25 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 01:28:25 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4477F189.90301@mdrconsult.com> Billy Pettit wrote: > Better or not, most OEMs are driving hard to eliminate IDE. SATA gives a > reduction in cable costs, connector costs, test fixtures, etc. This can be > a big saving on a large array. Plus less physical cable space needed, and a > small but significant power savings in drivers. Finally, it gets rid of > some of the skew problems for parallel transfers as the speed ramped up. ATA > was getting so bad that cable length was only 8 inches at the highest > transfer speed. Yeah, but now we have "duty-cycle rated" SATA hardware. IOW, factory seconds. > Whether USB is better/worse than Firewire - I tend to avoid religious > arguments. And interfaces are not static anyway. The portable device > market has lead to new generations of interfaces being created. CF+ and > CF-II are widely used. And in the background being prepped for the future, > CE-ATA, a simplied ATA (only 8 commands). And it has variations using MMC > as a physical layer, and new layers including 1, 4 and 8 bit serial > interfaces. Ain't life grand? You can't count on transfer rates provided by the USB or IEEE1394 hardware anyway, if the SATA ot IDE controller isn't up to the task. I've got 2 USB2.0 IDE enclosures; one does well to move 4-5MB/sec. Put the same drive in the other USB2.0 enclosure attached to the same machine and I get better than double the throughput. Doc From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 24 10:17:48 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 08:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ROM-based languages/tools (was Re: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060524151748.4149.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> > I _wish_ the C-64 had come with a monitor, with or > without an > assembler/disassembler. It was annoying to have > stuff crash to the > blue screen when I forgot to load the monitor (or > there wasn't room). > > -ethan Yeah, the memories are a wee bit clearer. I never installed JiffyDos, but I had the Warpspeed cartridge and that's about all IIRC. Perhaps that had the mlmon on it. I've recently located a book I bought on ML/AL for the C64, about the time when I stopped using it altogether. Don't remember the exact title, but AIR it had cartoonish characters (ASCII) on the cover or something. I bring it up because there are a few C64 titles I'm looking for, so I'd be interested in trades. I have a few other things also. Also looking for a 1802? monitor for a an authentic original C64 setup. It's got to be in exceedingly lovely shape though ;). Possibly interested in a 1902 also. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pepeline at verizon.net Wed May 24 21:12:30 2006 From: pepeline at verizon.net (JERALD KYER) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 19:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP8s for sale Message-ID: <20060525021230.43741.qmail@web84011.mail.dcn.yahoo.com> would like to buy pdp8a , What do you want for it? From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 25 01:55:16 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:55:16 +0100 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200605242244.31058.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1148540116.4561.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-05-24 at 22:44 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > The best way to ship a monitor/CRT is to find a box that was used to ship a > monitor, and re-use it (including the foam). I've never understood why they're not packed face-down. Gordon. From ed_sipols at goodyear.com Thu May 25 12:00:43 2006 From: ed_sipols at goodyear.com (ed_sipols at goodyear.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:00:43 -0500 Subject: HP external disk drives available Message-ID: Hello Joe, I am interested in purchasing some 9122C drives. How many do you have, what shape, cost??? Ed From kossow at computerhistory.org Thu May 25 18:11:08 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:11:08 -0700 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) Message-ID: I just reread your post. If you can post pics I should be able to ID them. When I saw white cube with 8" floppy, I was thinking tower. It's probaby an 8" floppy for a Xerox 820. The keyboard is probably a later style one for a Star. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 26 17:28:55 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 23:28:55 +0100 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <004f01c68079$888dcb70$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20060523002617.34719.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> <200605232312290464.4F5D5602@10.0.0.252> <447650D7.30405@brutman.com> <44765E4B.5030301@DakotaCom.Net> <44766415.1090308@brutman.com> <44766B81.9000402@DakotaCom.Net> <4476727D.1090203@brutman.com> <44767520.2070808@DakotaCom.Net><200605252032070341.591730FD@10.0.0.252> <44767C54.9020605@brutman.com> <004f01c68079$888dcb70$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1148682535.30663.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-05-25 at 23:04 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Patch data for a synth is a similar format, normally supplied (on older > gear) as audio tapes. I have many times sampled those tapes as a wav file > with a soundblaster card, played the files back - and the synth "reads" them > just fine. And then rhythmbox indexes them and they crop up in random shuffle play... Gordon (the tones sound better if they've been played into a Poly-800 first) From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 26 17:31:16 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 23:31:16 +0100 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <44767A91.8090408@oldskool.org> References: <200605260109.k4Q19XRA012662@onyx.spiritone.com> <44767A91.8090408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1148682677.30663.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-05-25 at 22:48 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > I know of at least one person who has repaired bad tapes by grabbing the > file at 24/48 and then quantizing to an extreme level (like, 8-bit > 22KHz) and also increases the volume a bit, both of which more clearly > "presses" the waveform closer to the digital signal that created it. He > writes that to a tape copy, and where the original won't load, the copy > loads just fine. Way way back, when I used ZX Spectrums a lot, I used to play dodgy tapes through a guitar fuzzbox to bring up the level and square off the peaks a bit. It worked, sometimes. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 26 21:31:59 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 22:31:59 -0400 Subject: Looking for specs for a Misubishi 82C55AP-2 Message-ID: <0IZW004BIKA44DU0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for specs for a Misubishi 82C55AP-2 > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 13:53:32 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 5/27/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 5/26/2006 at 12:18 PM Holger Veit wrote: >> >typically, the -2 means 2MHz for other manufacturers... >> I suspect that the -2 also means 2MHz for Mitsubishi. So you likely got a 2MHz part. >> >> Since I was in the same position a couple of months ago, there is a glaring >> exception to this: NEC. >> >> The uPD 8255AC-2 is rated at 5 MHz and the 8255AC-5 is rated at (ready for >> this?) 4 Mhz! > >Thanks, Chuck. That was almost certainly the particular vendor I was >dimly remembering. > >So it seems that the Mitsubishi "-2" parts are most likely 2MHz, but >I'll keep an eye out for NEC "-2" parts. There more to it than that. The -5 is really started by Intel and was really meant to indicate 8085 bus timing compatability which is slightly different than 8080. It shows up in the MCS-85 Users manual 1978. So the -5 was 8085 compatable and that part was nominally available in 3mhz speeds. So if you did anything else for 8085 at 5mhz you had to use another number other than 5 was used. The base 8255A was slower as the 8080 never got over 3mhz. A side effect of this was the -5 was usually faster and the 8255A-5 was reverse compatable to 8255A. The difference are subtle but do exist. OBTW: the -n for peripherals didn't always relate to CPU clock speed as it was bus timing related. One could argue bus speed and timing are the same but the timing overlaps for things like CE/ to READ/ or WRITE/ can be different and in the case of 82xx peripherals the -5 was aimed at the 8085 and others were maybe not 8085 but faster time wide for WR/ or RD/ active time. Typically Mistusbishi and NEC were either excatly the same or radically different for numbering. It really shows when 8085s or 8088s faster than 5mhz. the 8255 existed to 12mhz(CMOS) as uPD71055 (memory test on number). It was very common in the market that specific -n didn't mean speed and even when it did -1 or -5 could mean the fastest or slowest. especially for non memory parts. Generally this is most important if your doing fast 8085 (5-6mhz) 8086/88 at 5mhz or more or Z80s at 4mhz or faster. Allison From brad at heeltoe.com Sat May 27 05:47:09 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 06:47:09 -0400 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 26 May 2006 22:17:28 PDT." <200605262217280652.016A36CF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605271047.k4RAl9fg009799@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >Given the topic of smoke, what do folks keep around for fire extinguishers >for their gear? It's probably not pc (or even environmentally correct), but while racing cars I started collecting small hand-held halon fire extinguishers. Having used them a few times on engine fires (or grass fires caused by oil spilling over hot manifolds) I can tell you they work extremely well. The nice ting is they don't leave any residue to clean up. So I now keep them around old machines, just in case. I would think dry chemical bottle would make a huge mess. >I've still got a few big Halon-charged units whose gauges say they're fine, >but I know that Halon's a no-no because it eats a hole in the sky. So >what's the current "safe" electronics fire extinguisher look like nowadays? I'd like to know too. I'm not ready to give up my halon bottles because of the residue. -brad From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 27 06:48:05 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 04:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ROM-based languages/tools (was Re: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1) In-Reply-To: <20060524151748.4149.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> from Chris M at "May 24, 6 08:17:48 am" Message-ID: <200605271148.k4RBm5fJ013958@floodgap.com> > Also looking > for a 1802? monitor for a an authentic original C64 > setup. It's got to be in exceedingly lovely shape > though ;). Possibly interested in a 1902 also. I think you'd probably want a 1702, actually. The 1702 matches the breadbox colours better, and the 1802 is an absolutely sucky disaster as a monitor anyway (poorer picture, dismal reliability). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eeny, Meeny, Jelly Beanie, the spirits are about to speak! -- Bullwinkle --- From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 27 09:02:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 07:02:51 -0700 Subject: Looking for specs for a Misubishi 82C55AP-2 In-Reply-To: <0IZW004BIKA44DU0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IZW004BIKA44DU0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200605270702510694.034B37AD@10.0.0.252> On 5/26/2006 at 10:31 PM Allison wrote: >It was very common in the market that specific -n didn't mean speed >and even when it did -1 or -5 could mean the fastest or slowest. >especially for non memory parts. ...and sometimes I think it can mean missed design goals. Case in point, the National NSC800 CPU: NSC800-1 = 1 MHz NSC800-2 = 2 MHz NSC800-3 = 2.5 MHz NSC800-35 = 3.5 MHz NSC800-4 = 4 MHz You've got to wonder about that -3 part. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 27 09:02:59 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 07:02:59 -0700 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted) In-Reply-To: <200605271047.k4RAl9fg009799@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: hi There was a time when the chemical industry thought it was great to be able to create chemicals that just didn't break down easily. Freon and Halon were in this group. No one thought that over time, this stuff would just be hanging around until it did find a place where energies where high enough to break it down. The ozone layer is just such a place. Ultraviolet light from the sun splits all kinds of things apart. when it splits up halon, it makes things that quickly react with the ozone that also blocks the high energy ultraviolet from getting too far into our atmosphere. Someday they will learn. things that seem to last for ever are a bad idea. That goes for things like DDT, freon and many types of plastics. Dwight >From: Brad Parker > >"Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >Given the topic of smoke, what do folks keep around for fire >extinguishers > >for their gear? > >It's probably not pc (or even environmentally correct), but while racing >cars I started collecting small hand-held halon fire extinguishers. >Having used them a few times on engine fires (or grass fires caused by >oil spilling over hot manifolds) I can tell you they work extremely well. > >The nice ting is they don't leave any residue to clean up. So I now >keep them around old machines, just in case. > >I would think dry chemical bottle would make a huge mess. > > >I've still got a few big Halon-charged units whose gauges say they're >fine, > >but I know that Halon's a no-no because it eats a hole in the sky. So > >what's the current "safe" electronics fire extinguisher look like >nowadays? > >I'd like to know too. I'm not ready to give up my halon bottles because >of the residue. > >-brad From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 27 10:36:58 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 10:36:58 Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library In-Reply-To: <200605262204.k4QM4xSx001476@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060527103658.10b76204@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:04 PM 5/26/06 -0700, you wrote: > >A good chunk of my collection of documentation will be going to a >"Historical Resource Center" (aka Library) that is being built in the area. What kind of library is this? Does they specialize in old computers? My experience with libararies is that they throw out ALL old computer stuff (anything but MS Windows XP). One of my major sources is the outlet store for the local county library system. You can't believe the stuff that gets donated to them and that they turn right around and either throw out or put in the outlet store. MY advice is to visit their library and see what they have. If they don't have the kind of stuff that you're donating then it's probably for a reason! Joe >There is also a good chance that at least some of the hardware will >eventually go there as well. I'm currently planning on starting to clear >out some of the documentation starting tomorrow, as I desperatly need the >storage space. As they don't have a building yet, it will be moving from my >storage, to thier storage. > >Does anyone have any advice as to what kind of stuff should and shouldn't be >in a "Computer History" section? > > Zane > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 27 10:41:53 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 10:41:53 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted) In-Reply-To: <200605262217280652.016A36CF@10.0.0.252> References: <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060527104153.30bf736a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:17 PM 5/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >Given the topic of smoke, what do folks keep around for fire extinguishers >for their gear? > >I've still got a few big Halon-charged units whose gauges say they're fine, >but I know that Halon's a no-no because it eats a hole in the sky. So >what's the current "safe" electronics fire extinguisher look like nowadays? The only computer "safe" extinguishers are gas type (CO2, Halon, etc). Water and powder will both can cause extensive damage. My extinguishers are Halon. I don't worry too much about the ozone. After all, the extinguishers will never be activated. Right? Joe From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 27 10:00:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 08:00:00 -0700 Subject: Smoke in the Basement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605270800000014.037F878C@10.0.0.252> On 5/27/2006 at 7:02 AM dwight elvey wrote: >Someday they will learn. things that seem to last for ever are a >bad idea. That goes for things like DDT, freon and many types >of plastics. I don't think the chemical industry set out to make things "that would last forever", it just happened. CFC's for the most part are very stable and when they were originally made for use as refrigerants, it was a good thing. Very stable things tend also not to be toxic to life; before Freon was used as a refrigerant, the dominant agents in that application were sulfur dioxide and ammonia--both very dangerous if inhaled--and both potentially very reactive. That the same family of CFCs could be used as inert solvents and to displace oxygen in an electrical fire was a bonus. Things that break down rapidly also tend to be rather toxic to life; consider the predecessor to CFCs in fire extinguishers and industrial solvents, carbon tetrachloride. Much less stable than freon, it's a potent carcinogen, and can cause kidney and liver damage if inhaled. Yet I can remember that my bottle of volume control cleaner and my electrical fire extinguisher (not to mention household spot remover) were full of the stuff. But then, the history of the industrialized world is one of unintended consequences, be it asbestos, atrazine or MTBE. As my halon is safely contained in its extinguishers, I'm not about to abandon it anytime soon unless someone offers me a better alternative and a financial incentive to make the change. Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at wowway.com Sat May 27 10:09:40 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 11:09:40 -0400 Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060527103658.10b76204@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200605271511.k4RFBMC4011874@pop-8.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Consider this as a Me Too posting. .... I have seen what the local libary dumps to save shelf space. Any book not checked out in a years time is pulled from the shelf and evaluated for retention every 6 months. Some get sold at the yearly sale, the rest get sold by the pound. I have 2 8 foot book stacks full of books and several more boxes full of early books and software, waiting for a perminate home or at last resort listing on epay. I was told by two libaries that most of the collection would be thrown out durring the sorting and the rest would most likely go in a year or two. The other Bob On Sat, 27 May 2006 10:36:58, Joe R. wrote: >At 03:04 PM 5/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >> >>A good chunk of my collection of documentation will be going to a >>"Historical Resource Center" (aka Library) that is being built in the area. > What kind of library is this? Does they specialize in old computers? My >experience with libararies is that they throw out ALL old computer stuff >(anything but MS Windows XP). One of my major sources is the outlet store >for the local county library system. You can't believe the stuff that gets >donated to them and that they turn right around and either throw out or put >in the outlet store. MY advice is to visit their library and see what they >have. If they don't have the kind of stuff that you're donating then it's >probably for a reason! > Joe >>There is also a good chance that at least some of the hardware will >>eventually go there as well. I'm currently planning on starting to clear >>out some of the documentation starting tomorrow, as I desperatly need the >>storage space. As they don't have a building yet, it will be moving from my >>storage, to thier storage. >> >>Does anyone have any advice as to what kind of stuff should and shouldn't be >>in a "Computer History" section? >> >> Zane >> From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 27 10:34:27 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 08:34:27 -0700 Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060527103658.10b76204@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060527103658.10b76204@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: >At 03:04 PM 5/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >> >>A good chunk of my collection of documentation will be going to a > >"Historical Resource Center" (aka Library) that is being built in the area. > > What kind of library is this? Does they specialize in old computers? My >experience with libararies is that they throw out ALL old computer stuff >(anything but MS Windows XP). One of my major sources is the outlet store >for the local county library system. You can't believe the stuff that gets >donated to them and that they turn right around and either throw out or put >in the outlet store. MY advice is to visit their library and see what they >have. If they don't have the kind of stuff that you're donating then it's >probably for a reason! It's not a public library, though once it is built, it will be open to the public. I actually have a major say as to what kinds of things go into the computer section of the Library, which is why I'm asking for input. This isn't going to be the sort of place you go to find kids books, or novels, like I said, this is a "Historical Resource Center". It is dedicated to history, and the main person behind this sees the value of a computer section, and I know pretty much the entire Board of Directors. They are also interested in at least some of my hardware, either as exhibits, or a way of enabling people to recover genealogical data they might have on classic Media (I've already helped recover a bunch of data off of 5 1/4" floppies). It's intended to become one of the major Historical libraries in the country. And yes, I do know what they currently have in the way of books and periodicals. Right now the computer section is primarily various old consumer oriented computer magazines. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 27 10:36:09 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 11:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted) In-Reply-To: <200605271047.k4RAl9fg009799@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200605271047.k4RAl9fg009799@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200605271541.LAA05343@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The nice ting is they [halon extinguishers] don't leave any residue > to clean up. So I now keep them around old machines, just in case. > I would think dry chemical bottle would make a huge mess. Probably, but better than burning the place down. :-/ (And yes, I realize that's not the choice you see yourself as faced with.) >> So what's the current "safe" electronics fire extinguisher look like >> nowadays? > I'd like to know too. I'm not ready to give up my halon bottles > because of the residue. I should think that carbon dioxide snow would be effective on electrical fires (assuming power has been shut off, of course), and it leaves no residue either (at least if it really is just CO2 flakes - is CO2 as used in fire extinguishers just carbon dioxide, or does it have stuff added to it?). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 27 11:11:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 09:11:17 -0700 Subject: PCW's 25 worst tech products of all time Message-ID: <200605270911170495.03C0CC75@10.0.0.252> Some of which are vintage: http://tinyurl.com/k76mv It's a shame that Bob won't run on a PC Jr... Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat May 27 11:18:06 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 11:18:06 -0500 Subject: PCW's 25 worst tech products of all time In-Reply-To: <200605270911170495.03C0CC75@10.0.0.252> References: <200605270911170495.03C0CC75@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44787BBE.2080002@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Some of which are vintage: > > http://tinyurl.com/k76mv > > It's a shame that Bob won't run on a PC Jr... > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > The PCjr, in a grainy synthesised voice says 'Byte me' http://www.brutman.com/PCjr From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat May 27 11:50:30 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 12:50:30 -0400 Subject: ROM-based languages/tools (was Re: MS-DOS 1.0/1.1) In-Reply-To: <200605271148.k4RBm5fJ013958@floodgap.com> References: <200605271148.k4RBm5fJ013958@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200605271250.30277.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 27 May 2006 07:48 am, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Also looking > > for a 1802? monitor for a an authentic original C64 > > setup. It's got to be in exceedingly lovely shape > > though ;). Possibly interested in a 1902 also. > > I think you'd probably want a 1702, actually. The 1702 matches the breadbox > colours better, and the 1802 is an absolutely sucky disaster as a monitor > anyway (poorer picture, dismal reliability). Worse yet is that there were more than one version of the 1802, by completely different mfrs with completely different innards... I remember some common regulator failures on those. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat May 27 12:35:04 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 13:35:04 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <200605271700.k4RH0TTb064940@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005b01c681b3$e3ec4880$6601a8c0@barry> Re: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" A similar device that I like much better is this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8818529060 It is a USB adapter that supports desktop IDE, laptop IDE and SATA drives. It powers laptop IDE drives from the USB port, all other types (both IDE and SATA) are powered from a switching power supply (included). All for less than $20 including shipping. I have several and they work quite well. From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 27 14:39:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 12:39:45 -0700 Subject: Bad ideas, cont'd; the Pereos tape drive Message-ID: <200605271239450570.047FA821@10.0.0.252> The "25 worst" list made me remember the Pereos tape drive--backed up about 1 GB (compressed) onto tiny postage-stamp sized tapes. Here's one cheap on e-Pay: http://tinyurl.com/pczbk I first saw one of these things in 1994, when I was contacted by the company to include support for the thing in one of our forensics products. After 2 weeks of struggling to get it working so that I could actually read tapes that were written by it at least some of the time, I sent the sample unit back with a polite refusal. For those collecting oddball vintage media, this definitely fits the bill. One couldn't go to, say, Fry's and buy tapes for it either--you had to call an 800 number and wait for Fedex to deliver them. I think Datasonix sold these units up until about 1998. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 27 16:03:16 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 14:03:16 -0700 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again Message-ID: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> I have two of these: http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/SSA_219_7Slot/SSA_219_7Slot.html Each has a pair of PSU's in it. I assume for redundancy. However, the PSU's in one unit are strappable 110/220VAC while those in the other unit are 220VAC. If the PSU's are just redundant and aren't actively load sharing, then I *should* be able to swap one 110/220VAC for a 220VAC and run each array off a single supply (taking care to hack the sense signal for the second supply so the array doesn't continually report a supply failure). Am I missing anything here? Granted, the two supplies possibly *do* share the load as a side-effect in normal operation. But, I assume the intent was for a single PSU to be capable of powering the entire device in the event of a failure in the "other" PSU? Thanks! --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 27 16:15:56 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 14:15:56 -0700 Subject: HP LJ3 paper feed rollers Message-ID: <4478C18C.4090701@DakotaCom.Net> For "priority mail" postage from 85751, three paper feed rollers for a laserjet 3 (I think they also work on some of the other models of that vintage -- but nothing newer!). If you've never changed one, they can be a b*tch (there are some tricks that can let you change it easily WITHOUT dismantling the printer but far too hard for me to put in writing :< ). Prefer them to go to one person (so I don't have to bother with boxing them up three times!) but I'll consider splitting them up... Thanks, --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 27 16:29:38 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 14:29:38 -0700 Subject: Books: The Last Chapter Message-ID: <4478C4C2.4050704@DakotaCom.Net> The titles thus far unclaimed -- along with a few additions. I'd like to get the "spoken for" books weighed and out of here RSN so anything not claimed from *this* batch goes in the recycling bin in a couple of days... Texas Instruments ("Data Books") ================= Data Transmission Circuits (Line Circuits) '98 TMS380 Second Generation Token Ring UG '90 High Performance Networking Components (ATM, enet, TR, SONET...) '95 TVP5020 NTSC/PAL Video Decoder '99 Sprague ======= Hall Effect & Optoelectronic Sensors '87 Integrated Circuits '87 Dallas Semiconductor ==================== Data Book Fall '97 Product Data Book '90/91 Analog Devices ============== Amplifier Reference Manual (RM) '92 Data Converter RM Vol I '92 Data Converter RM Vol II '92 Special Linear RM '92 Design-In RM '94 Linear Products '90/92 Data Conversion Products '89/90 Micron ====== Flash Memory '97 DRAM '96 SRAM '96 Xicor Data Book '88 Micro Linear Data Book '91 Micro Networks Data Conversion Products '88/89 Micro Power Systems Full Line Catalog June '86 Philips Semiconductors for Radio, Audio and CD/DVD Systems '98 AMD Network Products: ethernet controllers Book 2 '98 (volume 1 hasn't turned up, yet) A set (complete?) of QIC-related specifications About 2" of unbound 8-1/2x11 sheets (these *may* be available someplace for download but the ones I have arrived in printed form...) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 27 17:21:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 23:21:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <1148682677.30663.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 26, 6 11:31:16 pm Message-ID: > Way way back, when I used ZX Spectrums a lot, I used to play dodgy tapes > through a guitar fuzzbox to bring up the level and square off the peaks > a bit. It worked, sometimes. I seem to remember at least one circuit in the UK electronics magazines that did something like this to improve the reliability of loading of cassettes into home computers. IIRC it was a few op-amps and not a lot more. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 27 17:25:42 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 23:25:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: from "Billy Pettit" at May 26, 6 04:09:00 pm Message-ID: > Better or not, most OEMs are driving hard to eliminate IDE. SATA gives = > a > reduction in cable costs, connector costs, test fixtures, etc. This can = > be > a big saving on a large array. Plus less physical cable space needed, = > and a > small but significant power savings in drivers. Finally, it gets rid of > some of the skew problems for parallel transfers as the speed ramped up. = > ATA > was getting so bad that cable length was only 8 inches at the highest > transfer speed. > > Here at WD, many of our new generation products will be offered in SATA > only. So (to get it on-topic for classiccmp), people with machines that only support IDE drives are going to have problems in the future finding working replacements (I doubt very much if any of us could repair any reasonably-modern IDE drive, alas). I've seen adapters to use IDE drives on SATA hosts, but not the reverse. Oh well... Looks like designing an ST506 (host) to IDE (drive) interface is not going to be a particularly useful thing. Better to work out a way to keep the old ST506s/412s/etc working. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 27 17:28:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 23:28:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: <145c4f2d4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 27, 6 00:50:47 am Message-ID: > > In message <200605041601.42935.rtellason at blazenet.net> > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > > The only problem with it the last time I fired it up was that the > > fan was a bit noisy, which I probably should take care of at some point with > > a drop of oil in the bearings... > > If it's a standard fan, it's probably better (in terms of time spent on > repairs) to swap it for a brand new fan. The old one is no doubt full of Problem is, most new fans are really poorly made, with horrible bearings. Personally, I take old fans apart (peeling off the label often reveals scrwws or circlips that hold the thing together), flush out the bearings with solvent and re-lubricate. I have once replaced the old ball races in a fan with new ones, and once made new bush bearings (not a hard job if you have a lathe). One of those repairs was for a fan in my 11/44 cabinet (35V, 70Hz AC fan, not the easiest thing to replace), though. > dust, dirt and other gunk - re-lubricating it might help for now, but the > dirt's still going to be rubbing at the bearing surfaces... > That's why you clean it out... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 27 17:56:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 23:56:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060527103658.10b76204@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 27, 6 10:36:58 am Message-ID: > (anything but MS Windows XP). One of my major sources is the outlet store > for the local county library system. You can't believe the stuff that gets > donated to them and that they turn right around and either throw out or put It's the same round here (or was, now donors seem to have wised up a bit). I remmeber when a lot of science/computing books were donated to the local library, and they sold them all off at _very_ low prices in a book sale. I picked up things like 'Handbook of Mathematical Funcitons', 'The ARRL Antenna handbook'. 'Communicating Sequential Processes'. 'BCPL -- The Language and its Compiler', and many more less famous works for about 10p each. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 27 17:32:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 23:32:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS In-Reply-To: <200605262217280652.016A36CF@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 26, 6 10:17:28 pm Message-ID: > I've still got a few big Halon-charged units whose gauges say they're fine, > but I know that Halon's a no-no because it eats a hole in the sky. So All I can say to that is that you should compare the environmental damage done by a couple of Halon fire extinguishers with the damage that would be done if you had to rebuild all your classic computers and other stuff from scratch. -tony From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 27 18:36:25 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 16:36:25 -0700 Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS Message-ID: <4478E279.1040905@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I'm looking for two or three HVD wide SCSI SBUS cards to connect some storage arrays to an SS20. Does anyone have any that they would care to part with? Thanks! --don From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 27 19:03:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:03:21 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605271703210318.0570FA2E@10.0.0.252> On 5/27/2006 at 11:25 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >So (to get it on-topic for classiccmp), people with machines that only >support IDE drives are going to have problems in the future finding >working replacements (I doubt very much if any of us could repair any >reasonably-modern IDE drive, alas). I've seen adapters to use IDE drives >on SATA hosts, but not the reverse. They exist, for about the same price. See, for example: http://www.xpcgear.com/idetosataconv.html Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat May 27 19:03:56 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 01:03:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Exidy Sorceror Message-ID: <3284.192.168.0.2.1148774636.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Folks, After many years waiting it seems a Sorceror is about to drop into my car in a couple of days time. It's coming with the S100 bus expansion, twin floppies, monitor (not the standard and heavy Exidy monitor) and 2 boxes of cassettes and disks. Bonus: it works. Now, aside from what I've read in the Exidy adverts I've got and stuff gleaned from the 2 Sorcerors I've had my paws on I don't really know that much about the machine itself other than it's a 2-3mhz Z80 job from about 1978. I know Exidy as an arcade machine manufacturer in the 70s and I know they went bust in the early 80s but that's about it. Used to love playing Bandido and Crash! in a seaside arcade in 1980 or so :) Anyone care to contribute things to the Exidy page I'm about to add to my museum? TIA! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat May 27 19:10:12 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 20:10:12 -0400 Subject: stuff I got dumped to me today :) In-Reply-To: <00c701c6812c$cb662150$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Jay West wrote.... > Bill Sudbrink wrote.... > > Is it one of these: ebay item 8817737206 > > Yup, that's what it is! Seems like I have an external drive > box and no computer to go with it. I haven't opened the cover > of this box, but from looking through the vents it would > appear to have a 8" floppy and a hard drive. It makes a nice drive unit to use with an S-100 system. I owned an IMSAI paired up with one of those. It had a pair of SA-851s in it and was driven by a cromemco 16FDC. From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 27 19:32:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:32:53 -0700 Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605271732530386.058C0452@10.0.0.252> On 5/27/2006 at 11:28 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Personally, I take old fans apart (peeling off the label often reveals >scrwws or circlips that hold the thing together), flush out the bearings >with solvent and re-lubricate. I have once replaced the old ball races in >a fan with new ones, and once made new bush bearings (not a hard job if >you have a lathe). One of those repairs was for a fan in my 11/44 cabinet >(35V, 70Hz AC fan, not the easiest thing to replace), though. If it's a cheap east Asian peecee PSU or chip cooling fan, just peel back the paper seal on the hub and drop a glob of grease in there and then put the seal back. These fans aren't worth the trouble of reclaiming them and most of the time, the aforementioned fix works--at least for another year or two. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 27 19:41:26 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: <200605271732530386.058C0452@10.0.0.252> References: <200605271732530386.058C0452@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 May 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/27/2006 at 11:28 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Personally, I take old fans apart (peeling off the label often reveals > >scrwws or circlips that hold the thing together), flush out the bearings > >with solvent and re-lubricate. I have once replaced the old ball races in > >a fan with new ones, and once made new bush bearings (not a hard job if > >you have a lathe). One of those repairs was for a fan in my 11/44 cabinet > >(35V, 70Hz AC fan, not the easiest thing to replace), though. > > If it's a cheap east Asian peecee PSU or chip cooling fan, just peel back > the paper seal on the hub and drop a glob of grease in there and then put > the seal back. These fans aren't worth the trouble of reclaiming them and > most of the time, the aforementioned fix works--at least for another year > or two. I think he's talking about "old" >= 30 years. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 27 19:50:50 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 19:50:50 -0500 Subject: PCW's 25 worst tech products of all time In-Reply-To: <44787BBE.2080002@brutman.com> References: <200605270911170495.03C0CC75@10.0.0.252> <44787BBE.2080002@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4478F3EA.8080300@oldskool.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > The PCjr, in a grainy synthesised voice says 'Byte me' (which is quite a trick considering that byte isn't one of the preprogrammed phonetics :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat May 27 20:17:49 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 20:17:49 -0500 Subject: PCW's 25 worst tech products of all time In-Reply-To: <4478F3EA.8080300@oldskool.org> References: <200605270911170495.03C0CC75@10.0.0.252> <44787BBE.2080002@brutman.com> <4478F3EA.8080300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4478FA3D.1040301@brutman.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> The PCjr, in a grainy synthesised voice says 'Byte me' > > (which is quite a trick considering that byte isn't one of the > preprogrammed phonetics :-) PC Speaker driven by software ... (Nobody actually bought the speech adapter.) Mike From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 27 20:28:33 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 21:28:33 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605272128.34007.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 27 May 2006 18:25, Tony Duell wrote: > > Better or not, most OEMs are driving hard to eliminate IDE. SATA > > gives = a > > reduction in cable costs, connector costs, test fixtures, etc. > > This can = be > > a big saving on a large array. Plus less physical cable space > > needed, = and a > > small but significant power savings in drivers. Finally, it gets > > rid of some of the skew problems for parallel transfers as the > > speed ramped up. = ATA > > was getting so bad that cable length was only 8 inches at the > > highest transfer speed. > > > > Here at WD, many of our new generation products will be offered in > > SATA only. > > So (to get it on-topic for classiccmp), people with machines that > only support IDE drives are going to have problems in the future > finding working replacements (I doubt very much if any of us could > repair any reasonably-modern IDE drive, alas). I've seen adapters to > use IDE drives on SATA hosts, but not the reverse. FWIW, all of the failures I've seen in an IDE drive were failures in the HDA, not in the electronics. "Boardswapping" a new board onto most IDE drives is trivial if you have a couple spares of the same drive, if there's really a problem with the electronics. I know that may not appeal to you, Tony, but most of us don't have the ability or spare time to repair surface mount electronics... :) Anyhow, there's enough new products being designed with IDE hard drives in them, that IDE will still be around for at least 5 years if not much, much more... And there's no reason you can't just collect some drives to be NOS for future replacements, either. IDE actually has been around for quite a while (in production) compared to most drive standards, SCSI is probably the only thing that really comes close (unless you call IBM's channel interface a "drive interface"..). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 27 20:49:50 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 20:49:50 -0500 Subject: Exidy Sorceror In-Reply-To: <3284.192.168.0.2.1148774636.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <3284.192.168.0.2.1148774636.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <447901BE.3060006@pacbell.net> Witchy wrote: > Folks, > > After many years waiting it seems a Sorceror is about to drop into my car > in a couple of days time. It's coming with the S100 bus expansion, twin ... > Anyone care to contribute things to the Exidy page I'm about to add to my > museum? Probably the most interesting thing about it was the programmable character generator. I have a Sorcerer too, but it never quite makes it up to the top of the priority queue, so there it sits on the shelf, waiting for my attention. Some day ... From rcini at optonline.net Sat May 27 21:06:04 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 22:06:04 -0400 Subject: TM100 resistor terminators Message-ID: <009801c681fb$46ac28e0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: Does anyone know the specs on the resistor terminator used on the Tandon TM100 floppy drives? It's a 16-pin device but the Tandon manual doesn't specify as far as I can see the value and configuration of the terminator pack. I think it's 150 ohms but I don't know for sure. Thanks! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 27 21:30:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 19:30:55 -0700 Subject: TM100 resistor terminators In-Reply-To: <009801c681fb$46ac28e0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <009801c681fb$46ac28e0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200605271930550870.05F81646@10.0.0.252> On 5/27/2006 at 10:06 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > Does anyone know the specs on the resistor terminator used on >the Tandon TM100 floppy drives? It's a 16-pin device but the Tandon manual >doesn't specify as far as I can see the value and configuration of the >terminator pack. I think it's 150 ohms but I don't know for sure. Yup--the pack on the drive I pulled off the shelf (well, actually a TM-100M) is labeled 16-1-151 and a quick check with an ohmmeter shows that it's basically 8 150 ohm resistors between pins 1-16, 2-15, etc. I'm not sure if I still have them, but I think I may still have the OEM docs for the drive, if you run into trouble. All of mine have a little paddle board plugged into the main board that provides the READY signal. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat May 27 21:48:58 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 19:48:58 -0700 Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library In-Reply-To: <200605271511.k4RFBMC4011874@pop-8.dnv.wideopenwest.com> References: <200605271511.k4RFBMC4011874@pop-8.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <44790F9A.4080400@msm.umr.edu> Bob Bradlee wrote: >I was told by two libaries that most of the collection > >would be thrown out durring the sorting and the rest would most > >likely go in a year or two. > >The other Bob > > > > Most librarians are assassins. The sad fact is that in most places, where they are funded by the local government, they are only open now because it would be politically embarrasing not to have them, and only stock titles useful for the local schools to be able to train students to use libraries. I won't make this long, but the bottom line is that you have to find some collector, or a museum which has an endowment to hold on to collections, or they will be broken up. Only a few libraries exist outside of universities that have anything of interest to me anymore, or to most here, and most of them do not acquire books that are not antiquarian. For what it's worth, JPL got rid of a huge amount of incredible books and documentation over the last 15 years, just to name one place that produces fantastic potential acquisitions around the area I am located in. Jim From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat May 27 22:09:28 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 20:09:28 -0700 Subject: TM100 resistor terminators In-Reply-To: <009801c681fb$46ac28e0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <009801c681fb$46ac28e0$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <44791468.3080502@DakotaCom.Net> Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > > > Does anyone know the specs on the resistor terminator used on > the Tandon TM100 floppy drives? It's a 16-pin device but the Tandon manual > doesn't specify as far as I can see the value and configuration of the > terminator pack. I think it's 150 ohms but I don't know for sure. Heh heh heh... one of the manuals in my "up for grabs" pile (already spoken for) Schematic shows RP1 as 150 ohms. Appears to be a DIP16 with 8 discrete devices in it (i.e. pins 1&16 are one such device, 2&15 another, etc.) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 27 22:17:38 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 20:17:38 -0700 Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: <4478E279.1040905@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4478E279.1040905@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: At 4:36 PM -0700 5/27/06, Don Y wrote: >I'm looking for two or three HVD wide SCSI SBUS cards >to connect some storage arrays to an SS20. Does anyone >have any that they would care to part with? Depending on what OS you intend to use, you'll want to watch out for which cards you get. I know most of the ones we used at work wouldn't work on newer than Solaris 2.6. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wpileggi at juno.com Sat May 27 22:22:32 2006 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 03:22:32 GMT Subject: Original boxes to Philips/Magnavox "Odyssey" game/computer Message-ID: <20060527.202320.19739.33094@webmail40.lax.untd.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From nico at farumdata.dk Sat May 27 22:44:06 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 05:44:06 +0200 Subject: [ZS1] Bad ideas, cont'd; the Pereos tape drive References: <200605271239450570.047FA821@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <001201c68208$f861dc30$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Chuck Guzis" > The "25 worst" list made me remember the Pereos tape drive--backed up about > 1 GB (compressed) onto tiny postage-stamp sized tapes. > The worst one I remember, is the BackPack QIC-80 drive from MicroSolutions. Our Tax authorities wanted to invest in these drives, because the were so cheap, and many used them. I told them outright, that my experience with those drives had been bad, and that wouldnt sell them to anyone, so if they wanted them desperately, they would have to go somewhere else. Nico From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 27 23:17:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 21:17:43 -0700 Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060527103658.10b76204@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060527103658.10b76204@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: At 10:36 AM -0700 5/27/06, Joe R. wrote: >At 03:04 PM 5/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >> >>A good chunk of my collection of documentation will be going to a >>"Historical Resource Center" (aka Library) that is being built in the area. > > What kind of library is this? Does they specialize in old computers? My >experience with libararies is that they throw out ALL old computer stuff >(anything but MS Windows XP). One of my major sources is the outlet store >for the local county library system. You can't believe the stuff that gets >donated to them and that they turn right around and either throw out or put >in the outlet store. MY advice is to visit their library and see what they >have. If they don't have the kind of stuff that you're donating then it's >probably for a reason! OK, second reply to this message :^) I specifically asked about the clearing out of old materials. The answer is that this is something that is directly against the founding principles of the "Historical Resource Center", and when the time comes they'll get a larger building rather than dispose of books. As I mentioned this morning, I know the Board of Directors, and know for a fact that libraries getting rid of old books is something that really ticks them off. BTW, as of about 1pm this afternoon, they now have a very good start on a Classic Computer section with books dating back to the 50's. That's just the start, as we ran out of time to dig more books out, and all I dug in was the storage unit that is primarily "non-computer". Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 27 02:58:00 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 08:58:00 +0100 Subject: Preserving cassette tapes In-Reply-To: <4477A15A.5070809@brutman.com> References: <4477A15A.5070809@brutman.com> Message-ID: <1148716680.17949.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-05-26 at 19:46 -0500, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > All I need is one good playback, so I'm not too concerned, But in the > last 20 years CD has supplanted cassette, and I can't say that I'm upset. I do remember *years* ago, when the ZX Spectrum was a current machine, that one software house (Codemasters, possibly) released games on CD. The improvement in bandwidth and speed stability allowed them to write really really fast speedloaders. With cassette, as the data rate went up reliability went down. Of course the Spectrum used a weird 1800bps-ish format - each bit was two cycles of the appropriate frequency, with zeros being 2400Hz and ones being 1200Hz. So, for average data it came out about even, but long sequences of zeros went past quickly. I tried writing a four-tone tape routine with two bits per symbol, with variable degrees of success. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 27 05:53:36 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 11:53:36 +0100 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: References: <200605240301.k4O31sTU011147@mrynet.com> <200605232157100085.4F185DFE@10.0.0.252> <20060524175107.C1136@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1148727216.17949.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-05-25 at 15:57 +1200, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Ensoniq Mirage was fun (mixed sector sizes) > > No kidding - I have a Mirage - wish I could easily backup/recreate disks. There is a tool on Rainer Buchty's website that lets you create SQ80 disks. You can modify it. There is also MREAD.EXE and MWRITE.EXE, but they require DOS. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 27 16:09:16 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:09:16 -0400 Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library Message-ID: <0IZY001R801NSC45@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Designing a Classic Computing Library > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 08:34:27 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>At 03:04 PM 5/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >>> >>>A good chunk of my collection of documentation will be going to a >> >"Historical Resource Center" (aka Library) that is being built in the area. >> >> What kind of library is this? Does they specialize in old computers? My >>experience with libararies is that they throw out ALL old computer stuff >>(anything but MS Windows XP). One of my major sources is the outlet store >>for the local county library system. You can't believe the stuff that gets >>donated to them and that they turn right around and either throw out or put >>in the outlet store. MY advice is to visit their library and see what they >>have. If they don't have the kind of stuff that you're donating then it's >>probably for a reason! > >It's not a public library, though once it is built, it will be open >to the public. I actually have a major say as to what kinds of >things go into the computer section of the Library, which is why I'm >asking for input. > >This isn't going to be the sort of place you go to find kids books, >or novels, like I said, this is a "Historical Resource Center". It >is dedicated to history, and the main person behind this sees the >value of a computer section, and I know pretty much the entire Board >of Directors. They are also interested in at least some of my >hardware, either as exhibits, or a way of enabling people to recover >genealogical data they might have on classic Media (I've already >helped recover a bunch of data off of 5 1/4" floppies). It's >intended to become one of the major Historical libraries in the >country. > >And yes, I do know what they currently have in the way of books and >periodicals. Right now the computer section is primarily various old >consumer oriented computer magazines. > > Zane > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sat May 27 16:18:19 2006 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:18:19 -0400 Subject: TI-99/4A UM1381-1 Modulator NEW Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060527171212.0522f6b8@tampabay.rr.com> TI-99/4A UM1381-1 Modulators NEW $7 each (3 for $18) plus shipping This price is for members of the following lists only: CC, TI & Mid Atlantic Retro Yahoo Groups only you must mention that you saw the price on this list TI-99/4A Modulator UM1381-1 NEW Paypal, cash, check or money order Please reply directly to ygehrich at yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 27 23:11:48 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 21:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS Message-ID: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> isnt it HDV - High Differential Voltage. Sorry to be a nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > At 4:36 PM -0700 5/27/06, Don Y wrote: > >I'm looking for two or three HVD wide SCSI SBUS cards > >to connect some storage arrays to an SS20. Does anyone > >have any that they would care to part with? > > Depending on what OS you intend to use, you'll want to watch out for > which cards you get. I know most of the ones we used at work > wouldn't work on newer than Solaris 2.6. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun May 28 01:45:36 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 02:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200605280649.CAA11970@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > isnt it HDV - High Differential Voltage. Not usually; whenever I've seen it mentioned by acronym it's always been HVD (probably my contrast to LVD, low-voltage differential). Remember, these acronyms are adjectives, not nouns. > Sorry to be a nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? If you mean metaphorically, just the way you did, or the way I do in observing that your "isnt" should be "Isn't". :-) If you mean literally, well, go find someone with lice (head lice are probably easier to do this with) and start searching for their eggs. That's the original meaning of "nit" that gave rise to "nit-pick" and related terms. (There are much better ways to eliminiate lice than manual nit picking. Trust me.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 28 02:04:30 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 00:04:30 -0700 Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You've got me confused, where do either I or the original poster say HDV? HVD is High Voltage Differential SCSI, an "archaic" form of SCSI that allows for greater cable lengths than standard SCSI. I just retired a system where the HVD Jukebox sat about 50 feet away from the Sun Ultra 2's it was connected to. Zane >isnt it HDV - High Differential Voltage. Sorry to be a >nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? >--- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > wrote: >> At 4:36 PM -0700 5/27/06, Don Y wrote: >> >I'm looking for two or three HVD wide SCSI SBUS >cards >> >to connect some storage arrays to an SS20. Does >anyone >> >have any that they would care to part with? >> >> Depending on what OS you intend to use, you'll want >to watch out for >> which cards you get. I know most of the ones we >used at work >> wouldn't work on newer than Solaris 2.6. >> >> Zane >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems >Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS >Enthusiast | >> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic >Computer Collector | >> >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role >Playing, | >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer >Museum. | >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ > | > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 28 02:20:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 00:20:37 -0700 Subject: [ZS1] Bad ideas, cont'd; the Pereos tape drive In-Reply-To: <001201c68208$f861dc30$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200605271239450570.047FA821@10.0.0.252> <001201c68208$f861dc30$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200605280020370943.07014E9D@10.0.0.252> On 5/28/2006 at 5:44 AM Nico de Jong wrote: >The worst one I remember, is the BackPack QIC-80 drive from MicroSolutions. >Our Tax authorities wanted to invest in these drives, because the were so >cheap, and many used them. I told them outright, that my experience with >those drives had been bad, and that wouldnt sell them to anyone, so if they >wanted them desperately, they would have to go somewhere else. Our tax folks invested at various times in Bernouilli drives (150 aand 250 MB), DDS, 8mm and DLT and MO (4.6 GB Apex drives) and then just went to large hard drives for backup. They actually bought about 150 of the Pereos units and never used them AFAIK. Maybe they've already shown up on DoveBid. Didn't HP at some point, offer a Travan solution that featured read-after write? I got the rah-rah routine from a very high corporate officer of Datasonix (he's still around, so I won't name-drop) that they'd solved all of the problems with tape and then some. The tapes were all of 2.5 mm in width and were helically-scanned, just like videotape--the transport was made by Sony.. When I asked if tape stretching wasn't going to be a problem, he made an allusion to embedded servo techniques. But no read-after-write, so you got to discover the bad news only if you went back and verified your backup. Actually, given the whole "floppy-tape" scene, I'm amazed that more folks didn't set their PeeCees on fire and throw them out of a third-story window. It would take you somewhere around 5-6 hours to back up a 1 GB drive with the Pereos--and that assumed a good tape, which was rare. As far as I know, Sony itself never deployed the technology on so much as an audio note-taking system. And folks are still not backing things up. Our local hospital here recently lost about 5000 images on their GE Xray machine. It's served by a RAID arrary, but that doesn't protect from software gone bad. So they were contacting folks to come back in and get new pictures taken. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun May 28 02:32:29 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 00:32:29 -0700 Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4479520D.7060707@DakotaCom.Net> Chris M wrote: > isnt it HDV - High Differential Voltage. Low Differential Voltage? Light Diode Emitting? Read Memory Only? Cathode Tube Ray? Liquid Display Crystal? Central Unit Processing? (some of these are actually amusing to consider...) > Sorry to be a > nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? Probably a lot like one picks OTHER things... (or, should that be "like one picks things other"?) > --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > wrote: >> At 4:36 PM -0700 5/27/06, Don Y wrote: >>> I'm looking for two or three HVD wide SCSI SBUS > cards >>> to connect some storage arrays to an SS20. Does > anyone >>> have any that they would care to part with? >> Depending on what OS you intend to use, you'll want > to watch out for >> which cards you get. I know most of the ones we > used at work >> wouldn't work on newer than Solaris 2.6. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun May 28 02:34:18 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 00:34:18 -0700 Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: References: <4478E279.1040905@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <4479527A.7080606@DakotaCom.Net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:36 PM -0700 5/27/06, Don Y wrote: >> I'm looking for two or three HVD wide SCSI SBUS cards >> to connect some storage arrays to an SS20. Does anyone >> have any that they would care to part with? > > Depending on what OS you intend to use, you'll want to watch out for > which cards you get. I know most of the ones we used at work wouldn't > work on newer than Solaris 2.6. Ouch! I didn;t know there were different flavors of HVD cards! (not to be confused with LVD cards) Are you sure these are SBUS cards (SPARC) and not PCI cards? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun May 28 03:01:07 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 09:01:07 +0100 Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 27 May 2006 23:56:38 BST." Message-ID: <200605280801.JAA24737@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > (anything but MS Windows XP). One of my major sources is the outlet store > > for the local county library system. You can't believe the stuff that gets > > donated to them and that they turn right around and either throw out or put > > It's the same round here (or was, now donors seem to have wised up a > bit). I remmeber when a lot of science/computing books were donated to > the local library, and they sold them all off at _very_ low prices in a > book sale. I picked up things like 'Handbook of Mathematical Funcitons', > 'The ARRL Antenna handbook'. 'Communicating Sequential Processes'. 'BCPL > -- The Language and its Compiler', and many more less famous works for > about 10p each. My recent scores from our local library include "Computer and Telecommunications Handbook", "Postscript Language Program Design, Tutorial and Cookbook, and Reference Manual" (3 volumes), "CP/M The Software Bus", "Programming with Fortran 77", "Using the Osborne Computer" and "Microwave System Engineering Principles". Not bad for a bit of small change! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 28 09:53:36 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 09:53:36 -0500 Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library In-Reply-To: <44790F9A.4080400@msm.umr.edu> References: <200605271511.k4RFBMC4011874@pop-8.dnv.wideopenwest.com> <44790F9A.4080400@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060528095119.053093e0@mail> At 09:48 PM 5/27/2006, jim stephens wrote: >Most librarians are assassins. The sad fact is that in most places, >where they are funded by the local government, they are only open >now because it would be politically embarrasing not to have them, >and only stock titles useful for the local schools to be able to train >students to use libraries. And not only that, but in many small communities in the USA there are movements afoot to merge the public library (as run by a city) and the school district's library. I mentioned this book here 15 months ago: Nicholson Baker's "Double Fold": http://dir.salon.com/books/review/2001/04/27/baker/index.html http://j-walk.com/nbaker/doublefold.htm He talks about libraries, the destruction of original newspapers and poor microfilming. - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 28 10:25:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 16:25:38 +0100 Subject: Smoke in the Basement In-Reply-To: <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> References: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <4479C0F2.2040605@yahoo.co.uk> Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Anyway... life goes on: Now I need to dismantle the whole beast to get > to the PSU and then there is the final question... will I find a > replacement if it's FUBAR? Probably I can get an Power Series (IRIS4D) > PSU to work - at least these look pretty similar. If I get the pinout > right, it shouldn't do much harm if the PSU is stronger I guess (say > 1500W instead of 1000W, right?). Make sure it's strong enough, though. I think the 'slimline' 4D machines all used the same supply regardless of graphics options, but presumably the supply was different to that used in the double-width 4D machines. If your system's older than the machine that provides the supply you may well find that it draws more current too... I'm sure it can be done, though. Or use a supply from a totally different system - just if there's lots of monitoring/feedback between the system and the supply then you might have fun trying to figure out how to rig it all up. (I'm probably not making any sense - coffee not kicked in yet :-) cheers Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 28 11:45:04 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 12:45:04 -0400 Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200605281245.04264.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 28 May 2006 00:11, Chris M wrote: > isnt it HDV - High Differential Voltage. Sorry to be a > nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? No. It's HVD, High-Voltage Differential. And, "stuff" ISN'T spelled "stuph"! -- Grumpy Pat > --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > > wrote: > > At 4:36 PM -0700 5/27/06, Don Y wrote: > > >I'm looking for two or three HVD wide SCSI SBUS > > cards > > > >to connect some storage arrays to an SS20. Does > > anyone > > > >have any that they would care to part with? > > > > Depending on what OS you intend to use, you'll want > > to watch out for > > > which cards you get. I know most of the ones we > > used at work > > > wouldn't work on newer than Solaris 2.6. > > > > Zane > > > > > > -- > > > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems > > Administrator | > > > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS > > Enthusiast | > > > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic > > Computer Collector | > > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > > > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role > > Playing, | > > > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer > > Museum. | > > > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 28 12:26:08 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 10:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: nit (was: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060528102037.L75217@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 27 May 2006, Chris M wrote: > Sorry to be a > nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? Nits are lice eggs. A very fine tooth comb will do (looks like, but is much finer tooth than the tool that intel gives away to remove processors). When dogs start rapidly, even frantically, diting at a spot of their fur, they may be nit-picking fleas. If that isn't more than you wanted to know about it, . . . From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 28 12:33:51 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 10:33:51 -0700 Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: <4479527A.7080606@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4478E279.1040905@DakotaCom.Net> <4479527A.7080606@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: At 12:34 AM -0700 5/28/06, Don Y wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>At 4:36 PM -0700 5/27/06, Don Y wrote: >>>I'm looking for two or three HVD wide SCSI SBUS cards >>>to connect some storage arrays to an SS20. Does anyone >>>have any that they would care to part with? >> >>Depending on what OS you intend to use, you'll want to watch out >>for which cards you get. I know most of the ones we used at work >>wouldn't work on newer than Solaris 2.6. > >Ouch! I didn;t know there were different flavors of HVD cards! >(not to be confused with LVD cards) Are you sure these are >SBUS cards (SPARC) and not PCI cards? Trust me, I know the difference. :^) Up until two weeks ago when the last Ultra 2's were retired, I've spent the last 10 years maintaining some S-Bus systems. It caused some real problems for me 2-3 years ago when we moved a bunch of the remaining U2's to Solaris 8. Of the ones I'm aware of, PTI made at least two different cards, neither will work past 2.6, and Sun made at least two cards, one won't work past 2.6, and one will work with at least Solaris 8. We originally used SE-to-DIFF converters, these might be the way for you to go. That way you can use better supported SE-SCSI controllers, which will work under newer versions of Solaris. We used these for years on some Auspex fileservers. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ama at ugr.es Sun May 28 13:33:11 2006 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 20:33:11 +0200 Subject: Free: new IBM Wireless LAN Entry PCMCIA cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060528183311.GA32507@darwin.ugr.es> Hello Doug, On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 11:07:54PM -0700, Doug Salot wrote: > I have several PCMCIA Wireless cards I'm giving away for the cost of > shipping. Are some of those cards still available? Would you ship them to Spain? Thank you and regards, ?ngel -- Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926 Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073 Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org ------------------------------------------------------ /~\ The ASCII PGP Public key: \ / Ribbon Campaign www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key X Against HTML Email 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 / \ and MS attachments 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 15:47:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 21:47:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at May 27, 6 05:41:26 pm Message-ID: > > >Personally, I take old fans apart (peeling off the label often reveals > > >scrwws or circlips that hold the thing together), flush out the bearings > > >with solvent and re-lubricate. I have once replaced the old ball races in > > >a fan with new ones, and once made new bush bearings (not a hard job if > > >you have a lathe). One of those repairs was for a fan in my 11/44 cabinet > > >(35V, 70Hz AC fan, not the easiest thing to replace), though. > > > > If it's a cheap east Asian peecee PSU or chip cooling fan, just peel back > > the paper seal on the hub and drop a glob of grease in there and then put > > the seal back. These fans aren't worth the trouble of reclaiming them and > > most of the time, the aforementioned fix works--at least for another year > > or two. > > I think he's talking about "old" >= 30 years. Indeed I am. I am not going to waste my time repairing, or indeed owning, the cr*p that pretends to be a fan these days... it is certainly worth being able to repair fans in case you come across unusuale ones. The fans in the HP9121/9122 drive units would be difficult to replace, for example. And I once did a repair on some SGI machine that had a large fan in the bottom of the case. A replacement would doubtless have been a lot more expensive than a couple of ball races (which is what I needed to get it going again). For old machines with standard fans (e.g. 120mm ones), it's debatable if it's worth repairing them. I feel it is if the repair can be done reasonably easily, since it keeps more of the origianl parts in the machine. That raises an interesting point, actually. If the normal repair method when the machine was in active use was to replace a module (e.g. board-swap), is it better (historically) to keep the machine as original as possible (by replacing just one component on the board), or to keep the original repair methods? I know what I'm going to do, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 15:51:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 21:51:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <200605272128.34007.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 27, 6 09:28:33 pm Message-ID: > > So (to get it on-topic for classiccmp), people with machines that > > only support IDE drives are going to have problems in the future > > finding working replacements (I doubt very much if any of us could > > repair any reasonably-modern IDE drive, alas). I've seen adapters to > > use IDE drives on SATA hosts, but not the reverse. > > FWIW, all of the failures I've seen in an IDE drive were failures in the > HDA, not in the electronics. "Boardswapping" a new board onto most IDE Sure, but the HDAs are not exactly home-repairable either. > drives is trivial if you have a couple spares of the same drive, if > there's really a problem with the electronics. I know that may not But as you said, the electroncis is rarely the problem. One caveat in doing this is that I beleive some drives stored HDA parameters (bad block lists, etc) in non-volatile memory on the logic board. Swapping boards between seemingly identical drives won't always work. > appeal to you, Tony, but most of us don't have the ability or spare > time to repair surface mount electronics... :) Having looked at some IDE drives I am not sure I do either. Very fine pitch connections (tht I probably could solder if I had to) and nasty ASICs that I can't get and don't understand. I would attempt to replace standard components if I could prove that was the problem. > > Anyhow, there's enough new products being designed with IDE hard drives > in them, that IDE will still be around for at least 5 years if not > much, much more... 5 years is not that long. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 15:56:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 21:56:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: <4479520D.7060707@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at May 28, 6 00:32:29 am Message-ID: > Light Diode Emitting? I have visions of a light bulb with 1N4148s flying out in all directions :-) > Read Memory Only? Is that a write-protect signal for RAM? -tony From lee at geekdot.com Sun May 28 18:45:05 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 01:45:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 30 pin 2MB SIMMs Message-ID: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> I've found two 2MB x 9 30 pin SIMMs in my collection. What would have used these? Each SIMM has four 1M x 4 and two 1M x 1. Lee. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun May 28 20:30:50 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 18:30:50 -0700 Subject: 30 pin 2MB SIMMs In-Reply-To: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <447A4ECA.4050209@DakotaCom.Net> Lee Davison wrote: > I've found two 2MB x 9 30 pin SIMMs in my collection. What would > have used these? Each SIMM has four 1M x 4 and two 1M x 1. Old SPARC IPC ? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 28 20:38:49 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:38:49 +1200 Subject: 30 pin 2MB SIMMs In-Reply-To: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: On 5/29/06, Lee Davison wrote: > I've found two 2MB x 9 30 pin SIMMs in my collection. What would > have used these? Each SIMM has four 1M x 4 and two 1M x 1. I have 4 of something like those from a Planar-brand wall-mount 486 LCD+PC combo. It has a squarish motherboard, one ISA slot (on the edge), with pin headers for VGA daughter card, off-board I/O bulkheads, IDE and floppy, etc. It is _not_ PC-104 (but there might be an unpopulated PC-104 connector space on it, I can't recall for certain). The same motherboard appears in an keyboard/NET-PC I have a couple of. Four 30-pin SIMM sockets, and the two types of RAM I have are a 2MB no parity (4 x 1Mx4 chips) and a 4MB no parity (2 x 4Mx4, but the odd thing is that the SIMM is half populated - there's room to make it an 8MB 30-pin SIMM). One of these days, I keep meaning to harvest the right chips off of, say, a 16MB 72-pin SIMM and transfer them to the 4MB 30-pin SIMM to fully load it. That would bring one of my boards up to 32MB, a decent amount for knocking around on, given that it's a 486-DX100. If anyone has ever seen an 8MB 30-pin SIMM, I could put about 16 of them to use. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 28 20:51:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:51:03 +0100 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447A5387.2030901@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> I've still got a few big Halon-charged units whose gauges say they're fine, >> but I know that Halon's a no-no because it eats a hole in the sky. So > > All I can say to that is that you should compare the environmental damage > done by a couple of Halon fire extinguishers with the damage that would > be done if you had to rebuild all your classic computers and other stuff > from scratch. Apples and oranges, though. What you really need to do is compare the environmental damage or your two halon extinguishers (or rather all the halon extinguishers that are actually *used*) and compare that to other sources of halon (or equivalents) that cause similar environmental damage. I bet the banning of halon extinguishers was cooked up by a bunch of politicians to make it look like they were "doing something" rather than going after the real culprits :-( cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 28 20:54:41 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:54:41 +0100 Subject: PCW's 25 worst tech products of all time In-Reply-To: <200605270911170495.03C0CC75@10.0.0.252> References: <200605270911170495.03C0CC75@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <447A5461.6010405@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Some of which are vintage: > > http://tinyurl.com/k76mv > > It's a shame that Bob won't run on a PC Jr... I got a bit annoyed by the "We appreciate the fact that there's an alternative to Windows Media Player; we just wish it were a better one." ending to the Realplayer write-up though: there have been lots of perfectly good (and often free) alternatives to windows media player for a *long* time. Talk about sloppy journalism! cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 28 21:00:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 03:00:18 +0100 Subject: 30 pin 2MB SIMMs In-Reply-To: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <447A55B2.5050704@yahoo.co.uk> Lee Davison wrote: > I've found two 2MB x 9 30 pin SIMMs in my collection. What would > have used these? Each SIMM has four 1M x 4 and two 1M x 1. Got a feeling that I've seen them in X-terminals before... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 28 21:01:25 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 03:01:25 +0100 Subject: OT: nit In-Reply-To: <20060528102037.L75217@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <20060528102037.L75217@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <447A55F5.7010900@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 27 May 2006, Chris M wrote: >> Sorry to be a >> nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? > > Nits are lice eggs. A very fine tooth comb will do a fine tool for combing your teeth? :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 28 21:06:29 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 03:06:29 +0100 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> Don Y wrote: > I have two of these: > > http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/SSA_219_7Slot/SSA_219_7Slot.html > > > Each has a pair of PSU's in it. I assume for redundancy. > However, the PSU's in one unit are strappable 110/220VAC > while those in the other unit are 220VAC. > > If the PSU's are just redundant and aren't actively load > sharing, then I *should* be able to swap one 110/220VAC > for a 220VAC and run each array off a single supply > (taking care to hack the sense signal for the second > supply so the array doesn't continually report a supply > failure). > > Am I missing anything here? Granted, the two supplies > possibly *do* share the load as a side-effect in normal > operation. But, I assume the intent was for a single PSU > to be capable of powering the entire device in the event of > a failure in the "other" PSU? Not quite the same array, but we've got a couple of StorEdge A3000 array controllers on our pair of E6500 boxes and they certainly work as described - later technology maybe, but it's an indication that your reasoning's correct. They certainly can run off one supply; one of the dual supplies in one of our units went into meltdown a while back and everything kept going happily on the one supply (just the room filled with smoke). No idea why it failed, except that it was first power-up after a few months being turned off, so possibly a stress-related thing. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 28 22:25:48 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 20:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: nit In-Reply-To: <447A55F5.7010900@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <20060528102037.L75217@shell.lmi.net> <447A55F5.7010900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060528202204.L89809@shell.lmi.net> > >> nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? > > Nits are lice eggs. A very fine tooth comb will do On Mon, 29 May 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > a fine tool for combing your teeth? :-) actually, most flea and nit combs look exactly like the comb like tool that Intel provides for removing Pentium. But the Intel pins are larger than a normal flea or nit. I showed one to a dog groomer; she said that it was "exactly the same, but this 'Intel' outfit must be dealing with a lot of BIG bugs." From john at guntersville.net Sun May 28 22:47:11 2006 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 22:47:11 -0500 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS References: <447A5387.2030901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <447A6EBF.DC47026E@guntersville.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> I've still got a few big Halon-charged units whose gauges say they're fine, > >> but I know that Halon's a no-no because it eats a hole in the sky. So > > > > All I can say to that is that you should compare the environmental damage > > done by a couple of Halon fire extinguishers with the damage that would > > be done if you had to rebuild all your classic computers and other stuff > > from scratch. > > Apples and oranges, though. What you really need to do is compare the > environmental damage or your two halon extinguishers (or rather all the halon > extinguishers that are actually *used*) and compare that to other sources of > halon (or equivalents) that cause similar environmental damage. > > I bet the banning of halon extinguishers was cooked up by a bunch of > politicians to make it look like they were "doing something" rather than going > after the real culprits :-( > > cheers > > Jules The hole in the ozone layer is drastically affected by the sun spot cycle and it is well documented by the radio communications types. The big scream about the freon refrigerants (halons) came at the peak of the most active sun spot cycle in many years. When the peak of the next cycle was approaching, approximately 11 years later there was a quick blurb on the local news about the hole was expanding again and then complete silence. The biggest problem with the freon refrigerants was that they will break down into phosgene with high heat and the EPA makes no mention of that in their lists of hazards associated with freon gases. Notice what the price is now (30 to 50 times what it used to be) and the replacements are just as expensive plus they are flammable. Don't have a front end accident with your new car. :-) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 28 23:38:55 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 21:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: nit In-Reply-To: <447A55F5.7010900@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <20060528102037.L75217@shell.lmi.net> <447A55F5.7010900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Sat, 27 May 2006, Chris M wrote: > >> Sorry to be a > >> nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? > > > > Nits are lice eggs. A very fine tooth comb will do > > a fine tool for combing your teeth? :-) I thought it was the tongue that could grow hair. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 29 00:22:15 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 01:22:15 -0400 Subject: 30 pin 2MB SIMMs References: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <001f01c682df$d9623e10$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: 30 pin 2MB SIMMs > On 5/29/06, Lee Davison wrote: > > I've found two 2MB x 9 30 pin SIMMs in my collection. What would > > have used these? Each SIMM has four 1M x 4 and two 1M x 1. > > I have 4 of something like those from a Planar-brand wall-mount 486 > LCD+PC combo. It has a squarish motherboard, one ISA slot (on the > edge), with pin headers for VGA daughter card, off-board I/O > bulkheads, IDE and floppy, etc. It is _not_ PC-104 (but there might > be an unpopulated PC-104 connector space on it, I can't recall for > certain). The same motherboard appears in an keyboard/NET-PC I have a > couple of. Four 30-pin SIMM sockets, and the two types of RAM I have > are a 2MB no parity (4 x 1Mx4 chips) and a 4MB no parity (2 x 4Mx4, > but the odd thing is that the SIMM is half populated - there's room to > make it an 8MB 30-pin SIMM). > > One of these days, I keep meaning to harvest the right chips off of, > say, a 16MB 72-pin SIMM and transfer them to the 4MB 30-pin SIMM to > fully load it. That would bring one of my boards up to 32MB, a decent > amount for knocking around on, given that it's a 486-DX100. > > If anyone has ever seen an 8MB 30-pin SIMM, I could put about 16 of them to use. > > -ethan Hey I have 2 Planar Cleanscreen 486 also (one is dualscan and I screwed the VGA up, the other is TFT). Do you have the external floppy drive you that thing? I never did find any 8MB SIMMs for those units, the other types I installed did not work. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 29 02:16:32 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:16:32 -0500 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> Don Y wrote: >> Am I missing anything here? Granted, the two supplies >> possibly *do* share the load as a side-effect in normal >> operation. But, I assume the intent was for a single PSU >> to be capable of powering the entire device in the event of >> a failure in the "other" PSU? I'm a sysadmin who unfortunately works with these things every day... Yes, the intent is failover. You plug both in, and if one fails, the other carries the unit. IIRC, your unit will make an annoying beeping sound if one of the power supplies goes south. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 29 02:28:40 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 19:28:40 +1200 Subject: Planar PCs (was Re: 30 pin 2MB SIMMs) Message-ID: On 5/29/06, Teo Zenios wrote: > Hey I have 2 Planar Cleanscreen 486 also (one is dualscan and I screwed the > VGA up, the other is TFT). Do you have the external floppy drive you that > thing? Yes and no... I tore my unit apart and spent an afternoon with a DVM and a pad of paper and reverse-engineered the DB25 external floppy connector. I rigged up a simple, non-robust 25-pin-ribbon-cable-to-34-pin-floppy-connector harness and pulled a +5V-only (no +12V required) Matsushita floppy out of the junk bin and got it going that way. I do not have a packaged floppy for the unit. I also do not have a DB-44HD (3 rows of pins in a DB shell) external CD-ROM cable - wish I did. > I never did find any 8MB SIMMs for those units, the other types I installed > did not work. At the moment, I only have the RAM that came with each of my boards (in the Planar housing and in the keyboard bases) - I haven't had anything, really, to attempt to upgrade any of them with. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 29 02:50:27 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 00:50:27 -0700 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Don Y wrote: >>> Am I missing anything here? Granted, the two supplies >>> possibly *do* share the load as a side-effect in normal >>> operation. But, I assume the intent was for a single PSU >>> to be capable of powering the entire device in the event of >>> a failure in the "other" PSU? > > I'm a sysadmin who unfortunately works with these things every day... > Yes, the intent is failover. You plug both in, and if one fails, the > other carries the unit. IIRC, your unit will make an annoying beeping > sound if one of the power supplies goes south. I'm sure I can workaround the alarm -- add a jumper between the sense inputs (on the "environmental board") for the two power supplies. But, I wonder just how much margin is designed into the supplies. I.e. when you have a PSU failure, the faulty power supply is usually *replaced*. So, the one supply that is carrying the entire load eventually gets some relief. Yet, I suspect most sites don't have cold spares for such replacements -- so the PSU probably *usually* ends up running the array for a week or more (?). I'd just want to avoid accelerating a failure in the supply due to the added load. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon May 29 02:43:56 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 09:43:56 +0200 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS Message-ID: <20060529074356.48480@gmx.net> > I've still got a few big Halon-charged units whose gauges say they're > fine, but I know that Halon's a no-no because it eats a hole in the > sky. For the stationary room-flooding fire extinguisher installations, they now have other gases/mixtures such as Argon, Novec 1230, Inergen or Argonite. I don't know if these are also used in hand-held fire extinguishers. -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten sparen: GMX SmartSurfer! Kostenlos downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 29 02:53:12 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 00:53:12 -0700 Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <4479520D.7060707@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <447AA85B.204C09AB@cs.ubc.ca> Don Y wrote: > > Chris M wrote: > > isnt it HDV - High Differential Voltage. > > Low Differential Voltage? > Light Diode Emitting? > Read Memory Only? > Cathode Tube Ray? > Liquid Display Crystal? > Central Unit Processing? "High Voltage Differential" is an ambiguous phrase: it could mean a differential pair with high common-mode voltage tolerance/rejection or it could mean a differential pair with high differential-mode voltage swings. "High Differential Voltage" as a shortening of "high differential-mode voltage" is actually a more technically concise term (and is actually a better description of the high/low distinction in the SCSI standarad). Cris M's supposition of "High Differential Voltage" is reasonable and valid, both grammatically and technically, even though it may be incorrect as far as standard SCSI terminology goes. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 29 03:35:20 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 01:35:20 -0700 Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS In-Reply-To: <447AA85B.204C09AB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20060528041148.96312.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <4479520D.7060707@DakotaCom.Net> <447AA85B.204C09AB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <447AB248.6010605@DakotaCom.Net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> Chris M wrote: >>> isnt it HDV - High Differential Voltage. >> Low Differential Voltage? >> Light Diode Emitting? >> Read Memory Only? >> Cathode Tube Ray? >> Liquid Display Crystal? >> Central Unit Processing? > > "High Voltage Differential" is an ambiguous phrase: it could mean a > differential pair with high common-mode voltage tolerance/rejection or it > could mean a differential pair with high differential-mode voltage swings. > > "High Differential Voltage" as a shortening of "high differential-mode > voltage" is actually a more technically concise term (and is actually a better > description of the high/low distinction in the SCSI standarad). > > Cris M's supposition of "High Differential Voltage" is reasonable and valid, > both grammatically and technically, even though it may be incorrect > as far as standard SCSI terminology goes. I'm not sure there even *is* a formal "High Voltage Differential" term. Note that "Differential" was the original term applied to EIA485 in SCSI. Thereafter, "LVD" was introduced to differentiate it from the original "Differential". I don't have the actual *thresholds* handy for LVD and "HVD", but HVD has a greater common mode range than LVD. I believe if you asked 100 people "skilled in the art" what "HVD" meant, they wouldn't think about the voltage *difference* but, rather, the higher supply rails used in EIA485 based SCSI (maybe HVD should be called SCSI485?? :> ) From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 29 04:22:04 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:22:04 +0200 Subject: Data General Nova Trip References: <03db01c68010$71d67530$367cfea9@newhare> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20170@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Sorry for the delayed response, Bruce. I have been on a very nice trip to the UK (from The Netherlands). Thanks for all this information, it will come in handy when I will get time to check out the Nova! kind regards, - Henk, PA8PDP ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Bruce Ray Verzonden: do 25-05-2006 17:32 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Data General Nova Trip The Data General top-loading disk drives were designed and built by DG: the 6045 "Phoenix" series were 5 MB + 5 MB fixed/removable and the 6070 "Gemini" series were 10 MB + 10 MB fixed/removable. These were similar to the CDC "Hawk" series, but designed and built by DG in-house. Likewise, the DG Dasher (tm) LP2 and TP2 printers (Line Printer 2 - withouth keyboard, Terminal Printer 2 - with keyboard) were DG designed and built, and were similar in design to the DEC LA36 series. Commonly sporting the "classic" DG blue paint scheme, the later ones sometimes had an "earthtone" (brown) color that matched the DG MV rack scheme of the 1980's. It uses/prints the standard ASCII character set but has extended features that allow downloading programmer-created character sets and plotting functions. Hidden in its pedestal base is... ... a microNova that controls the printer/terminal. Serial, parallel and 20 ma current loop interfaces were available for it. The Dasher D200 terminal displays standard ASCII characters but has a cursor control and other special feature code set different than other vendors. Later DG Dasher terminals did have ANSI 1964 support along with the DG mode support. The Nova 3 officially can support 128 KW (256 KB) according to DG but can really handle up to 256 KW (512KB) with a single-word patch to the RDOS operating system. The Nova 3's were the last Nova with "real lights and switches" and signaled the end of an era for DG. There were three variants of the Nova 4: the Nova 4/X, the Nova 4/C and Nova 4/S. Each had the same instruction set that was upward compatible from the Nova 3, and differed only in physical implementation and market positioning. The Nova 4/X CPU was contained on a single CPU board (same board as the Eclipse S/140) and used separate memory boards with optional parity. The 4/X usually had the memory map and mul/div option microcode installed. The other systems were 'unmapped systems' using the same chassis but usually without the memory map and contained on a single board. These were popular with small-configuration dedicated systems such as process control, mass spectrometers, etc.. Rob's systems look in great shape and are a great rescue. The 6125 "screamer" (Streamer) tape drives are reliable and easily maintained compared to other tape units. The maintenance manual appears included in the docs shown in one .jpg. The main system disk drives appear to be the DG-built 6100-series Echo Winchester drives (12.5 or 25 MB) combined with a soft-sectored "quad" floppy (1.2 MB) that were very popular. (Note - the disks have a head restraint bar to lock the head during transit to prevent disk platter damage.). The S/20 system is hiding in an MV low-boy, earthtone rack. The S/20 is a microEclipse that has a different PCB form factor and backplane design than the standard 15" x 15" PCB standard.DG systems. The microNova and microEclipse series used a hybrid parallel/serial I/O backplane as a cost and space-savings technique compared to the standard DG parallel I/O backplane. This questionable decision resulted in significantly longer disk and tape I/O transfer times for the micro series than the standard DG series. Very noticable if you were a user. A frustrating note is that DG / EMC still considers its documentation and software (yeah, even the Nova stuff from the 1960s/70s) proprietary and will not yet let us release our archives to the public. We are still working with EMC legal on a "hobbyist release" for the gigs of docs and software in the growing archives... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy Pettit" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Data General Nova Trip > Henk wrote: > > The disk drive has a fixed disk and a removable > disk, much like the RL02 :-). I am told the Nova 3 has memory mngt > installed, it has way more than 64 kb memory. On the disks is RTOS > (?) and, as I am told, a COBOL compiler. > > - Henk, PA8PDP > > I'm curious about the disk. MPI was selling to DG in this time frame. > This > might be one of the many variations of the CDD or the Hawk. Can you look > at > the label on it without too much trouble? Or send a picture of the > innards? > > Billy > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 29 04:24:42 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:24:42 +0200 Subject: Data General Nova Trip References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20171@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Billy, I will keep your e-mail, and hope to respond soon ... The Nova 3 is in the back of my shack (radio stuff). In front of the Nova is the VAX-11/750, an HSC70 and a cabinet with three RA81's, and the LP2... really need to make space! I get to make pictures RSN [ real soon now :-) ]. - Henk, PA8PDP ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Billy Pettit Verzonden: do 25-05-2006 03:50 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Data General Nova Trip Henk wrote: The disk drive has a fixed disk and a removable disk, much like the RL02 :-). I am told the Nova 3 has memory mngt installed, it has way more than 64 kb memory. On the disks is RTOS (?) and, as I am told, a COBOL compiler. - Henk, PA8PDP I'm curious about the disk. MPI was selling to DG in this time frame. This might be one of the many variations of the CDD or the Hawk. Can you look at the label on it without too much trouble? Or send a picture of the innards? Billy This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From mail at g-lenerz.de Mon May 29 06:38:00 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:38:00 +0200 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060527104153.30bf736a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> <3.0.6.16.20060527104153.30bf736a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <482496905.20060529133800@g-lenerz.de> Hello, Saturday, May 27, 2006, 12:41:53 PM, Joe wrote: > The only computer "safe" extinguishers are gas type (CO2, Halon, etc). > Water and powder will both can cause extensive damage. My extinguishers are > Halon. I don't worry too much about the ozone. After all, the extinguishers > will never be activated. Right? thanks for the fire extinguishing spinoff in the thread. I never really did care too much about that topic but after 2-3 severe smell incidents I'm now off to purchase a CO2 extinguisher for use in worst case scenarios. It's probably going to be more of a safety blanket (rather then something to put to real action) to have a solution between continued fire hazard after the incident and killing the machine with water or other extinguishers (in all cases *so* *far* that would have been overreacting). -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 29 07:01:03 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 00:01:03 +1200 Subject: Smoke in the Basement (was: SGI IRIS (Motorola) OS wanted) In-Reply-To: <482496905.20060529133800@g-lenerz.de> References: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> <3.0.6.16.20060527104153.30bf736a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <482496905.20060529133800@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: On 5/29/06, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > thanks for the fire extinguishing spinoff in the thread. I never > really did care too much about that topic but after 2-3 severe smell > incidents I'm now off to purchase a CO2 extinguisher for use in worst > case scenarios. One of my 11/750s (S/N BT000354) was nearly the cause of a Halon dump when it was in a commercial data center, c. 1985. It seems that the Unibus cable between the CPU bay and the BA-11 we used for testing COMBOARDs had gotten pinched between the BA-11 and the RK07 rack it was mounted in. The consequence of the cable damage was to cause a short to ground through the COMBOARD's 7812 and 7912 regulators. Moments after power-on, huge quantities of thick, black smoke poured forth from the regulators. My supervisor had the presence of mind to hit the Halon override as he powered off the machine (fortunately, the relevant switches were an arm-span apart, not on opposite sides of the room). The 11/750 survived, and the COMBOARD was working after I replaced the regulators. The only casualty (besides our wits!) was the Unibus cable. It was impressive how much smoke can come out of a chicklet-sized package. -ethan From mail at g-lenerz.de Mon May 29 07:05:13 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 14:05:13 +0200 Subject: Smoke in the Basement In-Reply-To: <4479C0F2.2040605@yahoo.co.uk> References: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> <4479C0F2.2040605@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <27054207.20060529140513@g-lenerz.de> Hello, Sunday, May 28, 2006, 5:25:38 PM, Jules wrote: > Gerhard Lenerz wrote: >> Anyway... life goes on: Now I need to dismantle the whole beast to get >> to the PSU and then there is the final question... will I find a >> replacement if it's FUBAR? Probably I can get an Power Series (IRIS4D) >> PSU to work - at least these look pretty similar. If I get the pinout >> right, it shouldn't do much harm if the PSU is stronger I guess (say >> 1500W instead of 1000W, right?). > Make sure it's strong enough, though. I think the 'slimline' 4D machines all > used the same supply regardless of graphics options, but presumably the supply > was different to that used in the double-width 4D machines. I can't tell much about IRIS powersupplies as I have first-hand experience with only one machine and that was even built during the days when the 4Ds were already hitting the market (1988 I think; boards are from around 1983-1986 though). The smaller IRIS4D (Personal Iris) do use something completely different as a PSU and they are rated at ~300W or something close to that. All other IRIS4D (Professional Iris, PowerSeries and Crimson in both Twin Tower as well as Single Tower enclosures) use sompletely sealed PSUs (like it's done in PCs today). They are all manufactured by two or three different companies and share the same size. They are all rated between 1000 and 1500W as far as I know. For closer inspection I need to dig out the PSU anyway so I might get the chance to compare part numbers against the one that is used in the other machines. Too bad that removing it is such a PITA... way to many screws and pieces of sheetmetal in the way on any of these machines. They are built like tanks... > If your system's older than the machine that provides the supply you may well > find that it draws more current too... Good thing is, the IRIS3130 is in a rather lowend configuration. SGI in these days apparently shipped stripped down backplanes either to 3rd party vendors (CDC in this case) or for given applications (ICEM; labelling on backup tapes indicate some work was done in aircraft industry). > I'm sure it can be done, though. Or use a supply from a totally different > system - just if there's lots of monitoring/feedback between the system and > the supply then you might have fun trying to figure out how to rig it all up. I've been down the street one time with replacing a Personal Iris PSU with an AT-style PC supply. Works, but the PSU is crapping out when drives are installed. Well it's 200W and the machine likely draws too much on some voltage lines with full height 5.25" drives installed but runs fine without. > (I'm probably not making any sense - coffee not kicked in yet :-) You were making a sense... at least you told me exactly what I wanted to hear... ;-) -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From mail at g-lenerz.de Mon May 29 07:35:33 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 14:35:33 +0200 Subject: Smoke in the Basement In-Reply-To: References: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> <3.0.6.16.20060527104153.30bf736a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <482496905.20060529133800@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <113556265.20060529143533@g-lenerz.de> Monday, May 29, 2006, 2:01:03 PM, Ethan wrote: > One of my 11/750s (S/N BT000354) was nearly the cause of a Halon dump > when it was in a commercial data center, c. 1985. It seems that the > Unibus cable between the CPU bay and the BA-11 we used for testing > COMBOARDs had gotten pinched between the BA-11 and the RK07 rack it > was mounted in. At least there was a visible cause. My incident #1 was me being dumb for not finding the 115/230V jumper on 'boromir' [1] so I did blow the PSU as well as a fuse in the hosue it was booted in. It actually took ~5 seconds for the fuse to kick in... no further damage then a shortened and currently dead/unrepaired PSU. Ok, that was pretty easy to resolve too. Incident #2 was 'sauron' [2] starting to smell badly... and he was actually humming happily 3 rooms further away in the basement of my parents house. I was testing a new board and currently I assume that this one is bad. I totally stripped the machine and couldn't find a source for the smell. The board also doesn't have a distinctive smell to it, or marks of the incident. No real reason ever found. The recent one (#3) was the currently unnamed 3130 IRIS [3]. The PSU seems to be the source of the trouble but I need to do closer inspection if I can come up with a real reason. The worst thing aside from the apparent danger of fire is that all three happened in my parents house. I no longer live there but the majority of my collection is in their basement and they don't really feel well with it. I guess I've covered/hidden the latest incident pretty well. ;-) > The only casualty (besides our wits!) was the Unibus cable. I'm always quite surprised what the computers itself survive. Sparks, smoke, overvoltage and still... with some replacement in the infrastructure many of them come up again without trouble. The result of terribly expensive quality hardware? Gerhard PS / PR0N: ----------- [1] http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/collection/1201.php [2] http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/collection/1200.php http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/pictures/powerseries.php#outside http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/pictures/powerseries.php#cardcage [3] http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/collection/1500.php From cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org Mon May 29 10:47:42 2006 From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:47:42 -0500 Subject: The results of your email commands Message-ID: The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 29 13:00:05 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:00:05 -0700 Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet Message-ID: Quick question, is it safe to lay an arcade cabinet on its side to transport it? I've told the people wanting to know that it needs to be transported standing up. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 29 13:45:22 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 20:45:22 +0200 Subject: using the Kennedy tape drive under RT11 Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2017E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I have connected the Kennedy 9100 open-reel tape drive to my 11/84. The interface board is the TC131. It sits in a UNIBUS slot, and the 3 cables are wired to the tape drive. The NPR switch is set for that slot. I can mount a tape and after pressing "LOAD", the tape is moved to load point, after which I can by pushing a button set the drive on-line. So far, so good. When I boot RT11, I see (with .show dev) that MT at 172520 is installed however, MS at 172522 is installed too! Using RSX11 (show aco) it lists: MTA - CSR 172522. That seems like a conflict to me: MTA (172522) and MT (172520), where at 172522 would be MS ...? As this is my first actual use of tapes, this is my first puzzle. Next: suppose I mount any tape (contents unknown and irrelevant), which commands could I execute? I tried the following (excuse my stupidities) under RT-11: .dir ms1: --> returns: ?MON-F-Dir I/O err - 011020 .init ms1: --> returns: ?MON-F-Dir I/O err - 014740 is this meaningfull to somebody? Should these commands execute correctly? thanks! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon May 29 13:59:44 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:59:44 -0500 Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447B44A0.9090707@brutman.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Quick question, is it safe to lay an arcade cabinet on its side to > transport it? I've told the people wanting to know that it needs to be > transported standing up. > > Zane > > Standing up is always better, but I've transported four laying on their back without causing damage. The issue is the monitor/tube - it is designed to be supported upright, not in any other position. You should open the back of the unit to ensure that the monitor won't break free if it takes a good jolt while on it's back. The other heavy component is the power supply, usually located at the bottom of the cabinet. And of course, once you get it in place, look for objects that may have moved. Like forgotten quarters sitting on circuit boards where they don't belong. :-) Mike From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon May 29 14:49:01 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 14:49:01 -0500 Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet References: Message-ID: <00d601c68358$f01d71a0$23406b43@66067007> I transported one for about 25 miles on it's back and it powered up fine and nothing was damaged. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 1:00 PM Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet > Quick question, is it safe to lay an arcade cabinet on its side to > transport it? I've told the people wanting to know that it needs to be > transported standing up. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From lee at geekdot.com Mon May 29 15:15:57 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 22:15:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet Message-ID: <4831.86.138.231.62.1148933757.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Quick question, is it safe to lay an arcade cabinet on its side to > transport it? I've told the people wanting to know that it needs to > be transported standing up. Standing up is best. If it must be laid flat it's best to remove or properly secure things like coin boxes and tilt switches. Power supplies are usually heavy and mounted in the base of the cabinet, these can break lose if there is significant sideways shock. Lee. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 29 16:02:53 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 14:02:53 -0700 Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447B617D.2090904@DakotaCom.Net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Quick question, is it safe to lay an arcade cabinet on its side to > transport it? I've told the people wanting to know that it needs to be > transported standing up. Depends on the machine. Most arcade pieces aren't built for much wear-and-tear. If it was one of *my* machines and I cared about it arriving with a good chance of *working* (or, at least, being *able* to work with some bit of effort), I would pull the monitor (assuming this is a video piece and not a pintable), power supply (xformers) and circuit boards and pack/ship them separately. Tape each of the coin mechs to their mounts -- or, snap them out and stuff them in a bag with some of the other gear. Lock the coin door and back door(s). If you don't trust the locks to stay shut, consider tying the doors closed (from inside *or* outside). Vacuum the interior of the case to catch any loose hardware (screws or coins) before shipping and again, on receipt (things tend to work their way loose in transit). Carefully remove the lexan, wrap it and store it inside the case (unless you have a similar sized package that is accompanying it). Protect the exterior finish of the cabinet and control panel -- new paint jobs are pricey. Monitor is always the tricky part to wrap. Lastly, don't be surprised if something doesn't survive the ordeal. OTOH, *slots* seem to be built much better and seem to handle shipping quite well (though in large cardboard "open at bottom" boxes which are often hard to come by) From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 29 15:56:40 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 16:56:40 -0400 Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447B6008.6090501@atarimuseum.com> So long as everything inside is properly secured down, most importantly the monitor. I've transported numerous arcades on their backs, never on their sides. So long as everything is properly secured and once it arrives, that person spends some time, checks all of the connections and such prior to power up, it should be fine. Curt Zane H. Healy wrote: > Quick question, is it safe to lay an arcade cabinet on its side to > transport it? I've told the people wanting to know that it needs to > be transported standing up. > > Zane > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon May 29 16:09:03 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 14:09:03 -0700 Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90605291409s545d3e2crd9f244f9deb6c159@mail.gmail.com> On 5/29/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Quick question, is it safe to lay an arcade cabinet on its side to > transport it? I've told the people wanting to know that it needs to > be transported standing up. > > Zane > If you were going to ship it yourself this looks like a good reference on how to crate an arcade cabinet. You'd probably have to pay someone else a lot for their time to get them to do this for you: http://www.mikesarcade.com/arcade/crating.html (This website also lists various interesting parts for sale, such as N82S126 PROMs, which I think is the correct part for HP-21MX boot PROMs, for about half of the Jameco price.) From pechter at gmail.com Mon May 29 17:40:34 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 18:40:34 -0400 Subject: using the Kennedy tape drive under RT11 In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2017E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2017E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: Does the tape drive emulate a TS11, TM11 or TM03/TU/TE drive. It could be that the controller is mis strapped. Who made the TC131? I've seen Western Peripherals and Emulex on som e of the web ilstings. I would think it's a TM10/TU10 controller... since I knew of one that was used that way in my dec days. You may need to unload the MS driver. Bill On 5/29/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hi all, > I have connected the Kennedy 9100 open-reel tape drive to my 11/84. > The interface board is the TC131. It sits in a UNIBUS slot, and the 3 > cables are wired to the tape drive. The NPR switch is set for that slot. > I can mount a tape and after pressing "LOAD", the tape is moved to > load point, after which I can by pushing a button set the drive on-line. > So far, so good. > When I boot RT11, I see (with .show dev) that MT at 172520 is installed > however, MS at 172522 is installed too! > Using RSX11 (show aco) it lists: MTA - CSR 172522. > > That seems like a conflict to me: MTA (172522) and MT (172520), where > at 172522 would be MS ...? > > As this is my first actual use of tapes, this is my first puzzle. > Next: suppose I mount any tape (contents unknown and irrelevant), which > commands could I execute? > I tried the following (excuse my stupidities) under RT-11: > .dir ms1: --> returns: ?MON-F-Dir I/O err - 011020 > .init ms1: --> returns: ?MON-F-Dir I/O err - 014740 > > is this meaningfull to somebody? Should these commands execute correctly? > > thanks! > - Henk. > > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for > delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender > immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. > Thank you for your cooperation. > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 29 17:50:40 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 17:50:40 -0500 Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet References: <1e1fc3e90605291409s545d3e2crd9f244f9deb6c159@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001701c68372$4f61d5c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Glen wrote.... > (This website also lists various interesting parts for sale, such as > N82S126 PROMs, which I think is the correct part for HP-21MX boot > PROMs, for about half of the Jameco price.) I've bought about 30 or 40 of the 21MX boot proms from him, best price I've found and the guy treats you right. Jay From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 29 19:39:24 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 01:39:24 +0100 Subject: More Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <20060522154455.H87858@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Folks, I met the previous owner of this machine earlier tonight and I'm now the owner of the best preserved example I've seen - no discolouration or dust and some of the best internal wiring mods I've come across in a home computer, almost works of art. Recovered kit: Sorcerer 1 with S100 expansion and twin Micropolis floppy drives, Transtec 1200 monitor, user and technical docs with schematics and a bundle of ESCape mags from the european user group. Interestingly there's a pair of colour boards fitted from 'stuart micrographics' that I can find huge amounts of nothing about. Info is hopefully buried in the ESCape magazines but if anyone has heard of them please let me know :) Ta! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon May 29 19:40:07 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 17:40:07 -0700 Subject: 11/73 front panel config switches and jumper Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90605291740g40962009rd828c6409f6889e4@mail.gmail.com> I recently picked up an 11/73 [M8190 / KDJ11-B in a BA23] and when I finally got around to powering it up today it was failing test 61 Line Clock during power up. I found some info on the H7864 power supply in a uVax doc which says that the BEVENT L signal from the power supply is enabled by the LTC swtich on the control panel PC board. I couldn't find any docs with details on the 11/73 control panel PC board. I can see a three header pin jumper, which has two of the pins jumpered together, and a dual rocker switch. Does anyone have docs for what these jumpers / switches do? Through trial and error I found that flipping the first rocker switch made the test 61 Line Clock failure go away, but for future reference I'd still like to know exactly what the switches and jumper are supposed to do. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 29 20:48:10 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 20:48:10 -0500 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> Don Y wrote: >> I'm a sysadmin who unfortunately works with these things every day... >> Yes, the intent is failover. You plug both in, and if one fails, the >> other carries the unit. IIRC, your unit will make an annoying beeping >> sound if one of the power supplies goes south. > > I'm sure I can workaround the alarm -- add a jumper between the sense > inputs (on the "environmental board") for the two power supplies. Actually, check on the back of the unit -- unless I'm thinking of the wrong unit, there should be a pushbutton to cancel the alarm. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cannings at earthlink.net Mon May 29 20:51:22 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 18:51:22 -0700 Subject: atari printers References: <01C67DBF.725A8BC0@MSE_D03><200605222017350829.4996DA30@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <000e01c6838b$8df5d930$6401a8c0@hal9000> Ethan ( et al ), On my 1020s the shaft diameter is 0.060 " on the gear in question. I hope this helps. The gear listed below has a bore almost 2 times too big. I can ship you small parts (i.e. things that will fit in an envelope). I have several 1020s still in the original unopened boxes and some that have been parted out. Biggest problem is still the ink ... Best regards, Steven Canning ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 10:39 PM Subject: Re: atari printers > On 5/23/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5/23/2006 at 2:41 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > >I have several mechanisms, some as printers (Atari, Commodore), some > > >as bare frames (surplus from Electronic Goldmine a few years back) - I > > >don't think I have 4 good gears in the entire pile. Anyone here ever > > >come up with a solution? > > > > Would any of the stuff that Small Parts sells be of any use? > > > > http://www.smallparts.com/components/ > > This is the only one with the right number of teeth (14), but I can't > verify the other measurements because my plotters are 10,000 miles > away... > > ( http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/gd.cfm ) > > GDS-3214 > > 14 teeth / 0.438" pitch dia. / 5/32" bore / 5/16" hub dia. > > $2.00 ea / $18.13 for 10 / $41.20 for 25. > > If this part matches the specs for the plotter gear, that'd be great. > I was unsuccessful in googling any old articles about this topic. I > remember it being discussed in mid-2003 (based on where I was working > at the time), perhaps May, if that helps. If anyone has any of the > former discussion and can cough up the shaft diameter and the pitch > diameter of the gear, that'd be what we need to see if this is the > right gear. > > -ethan > From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 29 21:03:30 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 19:03:30 -0700 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <447BA7F2.8060702@DakotaCom.Net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Don Y wrote: >>> I'm a sysadmin who unfortunately works with these things every day... >>> Yes, the intent is failover. You plug both in, and if one fails, the >>> other carries the unit. IIRC, your unit will make an annoying >>> beeping sound if one of the power supplies goes south. >> >> I'm sure I can workaround the alarm -- add a jumper between the sense >> inputs (on the "environmental board") for the two power supplies. > > Actually, check on the back of the unit -- unless I'm thinking of the > wrong unit, there should be a pushbutton to cancel the alarm. It's on the front. But, just as easy to add a jumper and never have to worry about that! :> From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon May 29 21:27:33 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 21:27:33 -0500 Subject: Smoke in the Basement Message-ID: <1766d957e4a0486b97cd7566f3299bd1@valleyimplants.com> IRIS x000 series seem to have problems with those junky encapsulated paper caps that like to die. Short answer on how to get the PSU out: take all the skins off- through the top undo the wire connectors, the left-side has the bolts securing the PSU holding plate to the chassis, the right-side has an access port. The caps can be replaced with Mylar units fairly easily. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 29 23:14:22 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 23:14:22 -0500 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447BA7F2.8060702@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> <447BA7F2.8060702@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <447BC69E.6000305@oldskool.org> Don Y wrote: >> Actually, check on the back of the unit -- unless I'm thinking of the >> wrong unit, there should be a pushbutton to cancel the alarm. > > It's on the front. But, just as easy to add a jumper and > never have to worry about that! :> Is that really a good idea? Failed power supplies should warrant attention... The alarm is only supposed to sound when something FAILS, not if something is MISSING. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon May 29 23:52:16 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 21:52:16 -0700 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447BC69E.6000305@oldskool.org> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> <447BA7F2.8060702@DakotaCom.Net> <447BC69E.6000305@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <447BCF80.2070403@DakotaCom.Net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Don Y wrote: >>> Actually, check on the back of the unit -- unless I'm thinking of the >>> wrong unit, there should be a pushbutton to cancel the alarm. >> >> It's on the front. But, just as easy to add a jumper and >> never have to worry about that! :> > > Is that really a good idea? Failed power supplies should warrant > attention... The alarm is only supposed to sound when something FAILS, > not if something is MISSING. Think about it... the whole point of this is to remove one of the 110/220 power supplies from the array that has two 220V (only!) supplies and move it into that second array. I.e. each array now has *one* power supply (since I am running off of 110VAC). So, the second suply is already MISSING. If we assume (the original question) that it is safe to run the array on one supply, then this is OK for both arrays. When / if this power supply dies, there is NO backup supply for it. So, what does it matter if the alarm cant sound when this (only!) supply fails? :> From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon May 29 23:59:41 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 23:59:41 -0500 Subject: Designing a Classic Computing Library Message-ID: >>I was told by two libaries that most of the collection >>would be thrown out durring the sorting and the rest would most >>likely go in a year or two. true of circulating libraries. These have limited space. While most librarians would like to be able to keep everything, you do that at the expense of patron's ease of use and "relevancy" of the collection. If people walk into a library and are confronted by scores of books that you are not at all interested in, they tend to give up and leave. What you want is an archival or academic library. The maintenance of a large collection is integral to the operation of these libraries, and they are unlikely to wantonly cull books. All libraries have a focus. If you disregard the focus it is unlikely that they will be very interested in your collection. OTOH librarians are "information professionals" and recognize the value of information. Ask (a MLS librarian) and they will probably direct you somewhere where your collection will be used (provided they aren't rushing around - library directors are finding out that nondegreed paraprofessionals are cheaper, leaving more work for the MLSes) >And not only that, but in many small communities in the USA there >are movements afoot to merge the public library (as run by a city) >and the school district's library. Key word is city. Larger county and multi-county systems are doing O.K. Not that long ago, Washington had a proposition to eliminate a library district (to "reduce taxes") go down in flames. >The sad fact is that in most places, >where they are funded by the local government, they are only open >now because it would be politically embarrasing not to have them, And you discribe the reason for the existance of most government programs of any value. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 30 00:17:57 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 00:17:57 -0500 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447BCF80.2070403@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> <447BA7F2.8060702@DakotaCom.Net> <447BC69E.6000305@oldskool.org> <447BCF80.2070403@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <447BD585.9080702@oldskool.org> Don Y wrote: > Think about it... the whole point of this is to remove one > of the 110/220 power supplies from the array that has two > 220V (only!) supplies and move it into that second array. Sorry, I missed that part :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 30 00:41:08 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:41:08 +1200 Subject: Smoke in the Basement In-Reply-To: <113556265.20060529143533@g-lenerz.de> References: <22480307.20060520023005@g-lenerz.de> <654283274.20060526202606@g-lenerz.de> <3.0.6.16.20060527104153.30bf736a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <482496905.20060529133800@g-lenerz.de> <113556265.20060529143533@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: On 5/30/06, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Monday, May 29, 2006, 2:01:03 PM, Ethan wrote: > > > One of my 11/750s (S/N BT000354) was nearly the cause of a Halon dump... > > At least there was a visible cause. > > I'm always quite surprised what the computers itself survive. Sparks, > smoke, overvoltage and still... with some replacement in the > infrastructure many of them come up again without trouble. The result > of terribly expensive quality hardware? Well... my other "big smoke" incident was nearly 20 years ago, working for a one-man-show kind of company. I worked for him for a summer, helping out with RK05 and LP05 refurbishment (he would buy clearance stuff by the pallet and get working what he could and resell it in known-good condition), assembling XT clones for CompuServe (one of our larger customers), etc. I plugged in an RK07 one day and it was like a smoke bomb went off. I was right there and hit the breaker, confining the emission to about a cubic meter of thick black smoke. Inspection of the PSU revealed a (one!) 1A rectifier diode had given up the ghost. The cause was a nearby electrolytic that was shorted. The repair was literally a $0.06 diode and the dead cap. That's it. It took us a few minutes searching around the shop to find a spare cap - this one was almost the size of a golf ball and screwed down to the PSU - not impossible to find, but not exactly overflowing on our parts shelves. After that - one happy RK07. I'm pretty happy overall with the quality of the mid-80s DEC hardware. I'm sure someone can come up with something that could have been made more robust, but in general, I always like worked on that type of gear (I must - I have a house full of it ;-) -ethan From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue May 30 03:02:56 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 09:02:56 +0100 Subject: 11/73 front panel config switches and jumper In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 29 May 2006 17:40:07 PDT." <1e1fc3e90605291740g40962009rd828c6409f6889e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605300802.JAA32605@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Glen Slick said: > I recently picked up an 11/73 [M8190 / KDJ11-B in a BA23] and when I > finally got around to powering it up today it was failing test 61 Line > Clock during power up. > > I found some info on the H7864 power supply in a uVax doc which says > that the BEVENT L signal from the power supply is enabled by the LTC > swtich on the control panel PC board. > > I couldn't find any docs with details on the 11/73 control panel PC > board. I can see a three header pin jumper, which has two of the pins > jumpered together, and a dual rocker switch. Does anyone have docs > for what these jumpers / switches do? > > Through trial and error I found that flipping the first rocker switch > made the test 61 Line Clock failure go away, but for future reference > I'd still like to know exactly what the switches and jumper are > supposed to do. Switch 1 enables the LTC to function under software control, switching it off disables the LTC function. Switch 2 isn't used. Mine has a 4-way connector which are the 12V and 5V test points - 12V nearest the switch. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 30 07:22:26 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:22:26 -0500 Subject: Repairing modular power supplies In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90605291409s545d3e2crd9f244f9deb6c159@mail.gmail.co m> References: <1e1fc3e90605291409s545d3e2crd9f244f9deb6c159@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060530071940.048b5f48@mail> Via Digg, a guide to a recurring topic on this list: http://www.instructables.com/ex/i/CC7605923FDA1029AC23001143E7E506/ He suggests that a common failure is fatigue at the connector. - John From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue May 30 08:15:42 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:15:42 +0100 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: <000e01c6838b$8df5d930$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000e01c6838b$8df5d930$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <588f242f4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <000e01c6838b$8df5d930$6401a8c0 at hal9000> "Steven Canning" wrote: > On my 1020s the shaft diameter is 0.060 " on the gear in question. I hope > this helps. The gear listed below has a bore almost 2 times too big. I can > ship you small parts (i.e. things that will fit in an envelope). I have > several 1020s still in the original unopened boxes and some that have been > parted out. Biggest problem is still the ink ... I think I've got a Sharp pen plotter that's the same - little tiny pens and a paper roll (although IIRC you can feed it cut sheets as well). I've yet to find anywhere that sells the pens, but apparently Radioshack used to stock them. Shame really, it's a nice little plotter - Sharp CE-515P if anyone wants to look it up. Takes the EA-850B, EA-850C or EA-852C pens. Actually, I think I've got a PDF of the manual somewhere... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G VF+UniPod philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 1G+180G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue May 30 08:22:15 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:22:15 +0100 Subject: Repairing modular power supplies In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060530071940.048b5f48@mail> References: <1e1fc3e90605291409s545d3e2crd9f244f9deb6c159@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060530071940.048b5f48@mail> Message-ID: <1f29252f4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <6.2.3.4.2.20060530071940.048b5f48 at mail> John Foust wrote: > Via Digg, a guide to a recurring topic on this list: > > http://www.instructables.com/ex/i/CC7605923FDA1029AC23001143E7E506/ > > He suggests that a common failure is fatigue at the connector. It is a common failure - seems to be the preferred failure mode for laptop power supplies. I had a Samsung N486S/25N PSU that had a cable break inside the grommet, and an IBM where the cable actually came away from the barrel connector. One of my friends has a Compaq Presario M2-something-or-other with the same sort of problem... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G VF+UniPod philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 1G+180G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 30 09:44:43 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:44:43 -0700 Subject: 11/73 front panel config switches and jumper In-Reply-To: <200605300802.JAA32605@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <1e1fc3e90605291740g40962009rd828c6409f6889e4@mail.gmail.com> <200605300802.JAA32605@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90605300744l4942bd0bh81616f120ee7cec3@mail.gmail.com> On 5/30/06, Stan Barr wrote: > > Switch 1 enables the LTC to function under software control, switching > it off disables the LTC function. Switch 2 isn't used. > Mine has a 4-way connector which are the 12V and 5V test points - 12V > nearest the switch. > Ok, that matches what I found through trial and error and that's good to verify that's the way it is supposed to be. Would this normally be set to disable the BEVENT L signal from the power supply only if something else in the system was supplying that signal? Thanks From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 30 09:56:18 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:56:18 +0200 Subject: Repairing modular power supplies In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060530071940.048b5f48@mail> References: <1e1fc3e90605291409s545d3e2crd9f244f9deb6c159@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060530071940.048b5f48@mail> Message-ID: <20060530165618.64330c9a@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Tue, 30 May 2006 07:22:26 -0500 John Foust wrote: > He suggests that a common failure is fatigue at the connector. Why do I associate DEC BA23 to this sentence in the context of smoking PSUs? ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 30 11:30:12 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:30:12 +0100 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447BCF80.2070403@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> <447BA7F2.8060702@DakotaCom.Net> <447BC69E.6000305@oldskool.org> <447BCF80.2070403@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <447C7314.8030903@yahoo.co.uk> Don Y wrote: > When / if this power supply dies, there is NO backup supply > for it. So, what does it matter if the alarm cant sound > when this (only!) supply fails? :> Depends on whether there are other alarm conditions, I suppose - critical over-temperature or somesuch. I don't think the later A3000's have an alarm - at least none went off when one of the supplies in one of ours went bang and threw out smoke. Knowing Sun it's software-configurable and someone had previously switched it off :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 30 11:58:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 09:58:38 -0700 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447BCF80.2070403@DakotaCom.Net> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> <447BA7F2.8060702@DakotaCom.Net> <447BC69E.6000305@oldskool.org> <447BCF80.2070403@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605300958380855.135F349E@10.0.0.252> On 5/29/2006 at 9:52 PM Don Y wrote: >When / if this power supply dies, there is NO backup supply >for it. So, what does it matter if the alarm cant sound >when this (only!) supply fails? :> Why is it necessary to disable the alarm? Why not simply make up a harness to bridge the two power connectors with the same supply? If it goes, it goes--otherwise, if it's working, it looks like both PSU's are operating. ...or am I missing something here? Cheers, Chuck From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue May 30 12:44:48 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:44:48 +0100 Subject: 11/73 front panel config switches and jumper In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 May 2006 07:44:43 PDT." <1e1fc3e90605300744l4942bd0bh81616f120ee7cec3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605301744.SAA01027@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Glen Slick said: > On 5/30/06, Stan Barr wrote: > > > > Switch 1 enables the LTC to function under software control, switching > > it off disables the LTC function. Switch 2 isn't used. > > Mine has a 4-way connector which are the 12V and 5V test points - 12V > > nearest the switch. > > > > Ok, that matches what I found through trial and error and that's good > to verify that's the way it is supposed to be. Would this normally be > set to disable the BEVENT L signal from the power supply only if > something else in the system was supplying that signal? > Good question, to answer that I'd have to read the manual! (Which is on the Mac not this box...) Most manuals for the 11/73 are online at one of the usual sources, google should find 'em. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 30 14:18:40 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:18:40 +0200 Subject: using the Kennedy tape drive under RT11 References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2017E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20189@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hello Bill, thanks for the pointers. The TC131 is indeed from Western Peripherals, and I got the manual from bitsavers. It is a TM11/TU10 controller, so you got that right too! I checked, it is set for CSR 772520 and vector 224. I renamed the MS.SYS driver to MS.SAS and the MT.SAS to MT.SYS. After rebooting I still get the same I/O errors, but ... On the drive is a small thumbwheel switch to set the drive to device number 1, 2, 3, or 4. Funny, it can not be set to 0. That is partly visible, but I do not want to use that much force that I damage the switch. I tried all .DIR MT#: commands (where # is 1,2,3,4). All give the same I/O error, and the tape stays at loadpoint. I don't know how it happened, but I entered .DIR MT: ... the tape moves! So, it seems that the drive number is irrelevant, even more: you must not specify it on the RT11 commands! I have done several .COPY to MT:, and they are all successful. A .DIR rewinds the tape and lists the saved files. It seems that I have a working Kennedy 9100 (1600 bpi) ! Yippie :-) thanks, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Bill Pechter Verzonden: di 30-05-2006 00:40 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: using the Kennedy tape drive under RT11 Does the tape drive emulate a TS11, TM11 or TM03/TU/TE drive. It could be that the controller is mis strapped. Who made the TC131? I've seen Western Peripherals and Emulex on som e of the web ilstings. I would think it's a TM10/TU10 controller... since I knew of one that was used that way in my dec days. You may need to unload the MS driver. Bill On 5/29/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hi all, > I have connected the Kennedy 9100 open-reel tape drive to my 11/84. > The interface board is the TC131. It sits in a UNIBUS slot, and the 3 > cables are wired to the tape drive. The NPR switch is set for that slot. > I can mount a tape and after pressing "LOAD", the tape is moved to > load point, after which I can by pushing a button set the drive on-line. > So far, so good. > When I boot RT11, I see (with .show dev) that MT at 172520 is installed > however, MS at 172522 is installed too! > Using RSX11 (show aco) it lists: MTA - CSR 172522. > > That seems like a conflict to me: MTA (172522) and MT (172520), where > at 172522 would be MS ...? > > As this is my first actual use of tapes, this is my first puzzle. > Next: suppose I mount any tape (contents unknown and irrelevant), which > commands could I execute? > I tried the following (excuse my stupidities) under RT-11: > .dir ms1: --> returns: ?MON-F-Dir I/O err - 011020 > .init ms1: --> returns: ?MON-F-Dir I/O err - 014740 > > is this meaningfull to somebody? Should these commands execute correctly? > > thanks! > - Henk. > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 30 15:28:53 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:28:53 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: So (to get it on-topic for classiccmp), people with machines that only support IDE drives are going to have problems in the future finding working replacements (I doubt very much if any of us could repair any reasonably-modern IDE drive, alas). I've seen adapters to use IDE drives on SATA hosts, but not the reverse. Oh well... Looks like designing an ST506 (host) to IDE (drive) interface is not going to be a particularly useful thing. Better to work out a way to keep the old ST506s/412s/etc working. -tony ------------------------------------------------------ I'm lost in your logic here. ST506 and 412 have been obsolete for 15 years. They will become harder and harder to find and keep working. If you are trying to keep the old systems running, you will eventually have to do a dongle of some sort with newer drives. Why not now? Keeping the old drives working is going to require parts and technology that don't exist commercially any more. You can still find the high volume circuitry in the surplus stores. But it's the heads and platters that wear out and ferrite heads and oxide media are gone. Occasional bits and pieces show up less and less often. Why not put the energy into adapting the latest drive technology? That buys you an extra decade or so. IDE drives are going to be around in far greater volumes long after the last ST506 is still working. I just had a report that last year was the biggest year ever for hard drives: 376 million units, the huge majority IDE. That gives a pool of drives to use that will outlast most of us on this list. And there are already IDE to SATA dongles to stretch out another generation. And there are the side issues to keeping the old systems going. How long will we be able to find 8" and 5.25" media? Printer ribbons? Rubber parts for teletypes and typewriters? When do you toss in the towel on trying to keep the old systems going? One of my other hobbies is amateur publishing. We used Gestener mimeograph machines. The machines are easy to keep running. But I haven't been able to buy any stencils in the last 5 years. A place in India made them until around 2000. Now it's just the odd cache that shows up on eBay every 4-6 months. The ink we've tried to make ourselves with a little success. And of course, the twiltone paper is long gone. Modern paper is too slick and non-absorbent. When we get a mimeo going, it still looks like crap because of the poor ink and paper. So I wonder again, when do we give up on keeping the old machines running? If my CDC 160-A memory goes, there's no more core memories. My Jetex engines don't have fuel any more. My old typewriters have platens that turn to powder if I try to type. Some time, we have to let go and upgrade as much as it is unaesthetic or displeasing. When? Billy From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 30 16:30:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:30:24 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605301430240734.145802D3@10.0.0.252> On 5/30/2006 at 1:28 PM Billy Pettit wrote: >Some time, we have to let go and upgrade as much as it is unaesthetic or >displeasing. When? Now that's an interesting question.' I think if "maintainability" is plotted against time, it often looks like a bell-shaped curve. Near the peak of the curve, we have devices that use available commodity components (e.g. 7400-series TTL and/or discretes), so, for example, it's possible to keep a PC XT mobo going for a long time. Way off on the back end of the curve are devices constructed from things that were once commodity items, but which are old enough to be rare (point-contact transistors, germanium diodes, UV-201As, your 160A core, etc.). Off the front end of the curve are those devices constructed from devices that, although only slightly out of date, are no longer available and whose specs may never have been published outside of an internal company document (try to replace a house-numbered ASIC on a 1990's PC mobo). If one wanted to make an ST-506 or 412 replacement, I'd be sore tempted just to do it with some battery-backed SRAM and a microcontroller. 100 MB was once a big hard drive, but it's not even big for SRAM nowadays. The replacement might extend the useful life of your device by decades, since there's no moving parts to wear out. I'm sure that you could do likewise for your 160A core. Someone once offered me a genuine Linotype hot-type typesetting machine. I didn't take the guy up on his offer, but I wonder if there are any of the beasts still in use. Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 30 16:49:44 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 22:49:44 +0100 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0605301449g489f1380k7c16e1c8322efaf7@mail.gmail.com> On 5/30/06, Billy Pettit wrote: > Some time, we have to let go and upgrade as much as it is unaesthetic or > displeasing. When? There comes a time when it's no longer viable to keep old machines running. Computers aren't anything unique in this regard. The oldest human weapon that wasn't simply a thrown object is probably a sling. There's at least one nearly 3,000yr old one that was found in Egypt, but it's far too fragile to use or test - but for trying it out, it can be reconstructed: http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/detail/details/index_no_login.php?objectid=UC6921&accesscheck=%2Fdetail%2Fdetails%2Findex.php After a while, when parts and consumables can no longer be found or fabricated, old computers, like, say, old motorbikes, are going to become purely museum pieces, that cannot actually be *run*. They're already no use - you wouldn't go to work on a 1905 Douglas and you wouldn't run a PDP-8 to read your email. Doesn't mean they're valueless. Better to preserve them in their original state in a museum than to bodge together some hybrid of ancient and modern kit. To give people the experience of using them, write and emulator & make it perfect & faithful. That way,m the OS, the software, the data files, the *feel* of the machine can be kept alive indefinitely. One day, future computers won't run our current "modern" software. But we can run the emulator on an emulator when that happens! -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 30 17:10:13 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <575131af0605301449g489f1380k7c16e1c8322efaf7@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at May 30, 2006 10:49:44 PM Message-ID: <200605302210.k4UMADnu031841@onyx.spiritone.com> > After a while, when parts and consumables can no longer be found or > fabricated, old computers, like, say, old motorbikes, are going to > become purely museum pieces, that cannot actually be *run*. They're > already no use - you wouldn't go to work on a 1905 Douglas and you > wouldn't run a PDP-8 to read your email. Doesn't mean they're > valueless. Better to preserve them in their original state in a museum > than to bodge together some hybrid of ancient and modern kit. > > To give people the experience of using them, write and emulator & make > it perfect & faithful. That way,m the OS, the software, the data > files, the *feel* of the machine can be kept alive indefinitely. I was giving this some thought just this morning. At least some of my systems will be going into the "Historical Resource Center" that I mentioned in the Library thread. I've always wanted to have these systems where they can be seen and used by the public, but then I got to thinking. Do I really want to maintain something like a PDP-11 that is on 24/7 so the public can play with it? It makes far more sense to have such systems on display, and just emulate them. Sure people like us will know the difference, and mind it, but realistically to the general public, does it really matter? At least to start with, I'll be the only technically oriented person involved, and I simply do not have the time to maintain old systems for anyone other than myself (don't really have time to do it for myself). At the same time, I'm looking into a setup such that the general public can go into the "Historical Resource Center" and transfer their old media to modern media. I invision this including 5 1/4" floppies, and 3 1/2" floppies at a minimum. (I figure at least Commodore, Apple and PC). While this can be done with a combination of old and new systems, it might be better to do it with a modern PC and a Catweasel card. Zane From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 30 17:12:03 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:12:03 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <575131af0605301449g489f1380k7c16e1c8322efaf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0605301449g489f1380k7c16e1c8322efaf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605301812.03642.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 30 May 2006 17:49, Liam Proven wrote: > On 5/30/06, Billy Pettit wrote: > > Some time, we have to let go and upgrade as much as it is > > unaesthetic or displeasing. When? > [...] > One day, future computers won't run our current "modern" software. > But we can run the emulator on an emulator when that happens! Or, we can keep the source around[0], and write things in fairly portable languages, and modify them as necessary to run on each successive new technology[1], where necessary. 0. That implies that we have the source by one way or another, of course. 1. One might conclude then that open-source software has a longer potential life-span than close-source things do. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue May 30 17:27:31 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:27:31 -0700 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <447C7314.8030903@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> <447BA7F2.8060702@DakotaCom.Net> <447BC69E.6000305@oldskool.org> <447BCF80.2070403@DakotaCom.Net> <447C7314.8030903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <447CC6D3.7020703@DakotaCom.Net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> When / if this power supply dies, there is NO backup supply >> for it. So, what does it matter if the alarm cant sound >> when this (only!) supply fails? :> > > Depends on whether there are other alarm conditions, I suppose - > critical over-temperature or somesuch. That's the advantage of just adding a jumper between the sense input from PSU #1 (installed) and PSU #2 (removed)... it tricks the alram circuitry into thinking both PSU's are good without interfering with the reporting of any other alarms. If PSU #1 dies, then reporting an alarm is a moot point... since the entire array will be dead (given that PSU #2 does not exist!) > I don't think the later A3000's have an alarm - at least none went off > when one of the supplies in one of ours went bang and threw out smoke. > Knowing Sun it's software-configurable and someone had previously > switched it off :-) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue May 30 17:29:28 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:29:28 -0700 Subject: Sun Storage Array, yet again In-Reply-To: <200605300958380855.135F349E@10.0.0.252> References: <4478BE94.9040000@DakotaCom.Net> <447A5725.9050500@yahoo.co.uk> <447A9FD0.5000405@oldskool.org> <447AA7C3.4090307@DakotaCom.Net> <447BA45A.5090407@oldskool.org> <447BA7F2.8060702@DakotaCom.Net> <447BC69E.6000305@oldskool.org> <447BCF80.2070403@DakotaCom.Net> <200605300958380855.135F349E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <447CC748.1000405@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/29/2006 at 9:52 PM Don Y wrote: > >> When / if this power supply dies, there is NO backup supply >> for it. So, what does it matter if the alarm cant sound >> when this (only!) supply fails? :> > > Why is it necessary to disable the alarm? Why not simply make up a harness > to bridge the two power connectors with the same supply? If it goes, it > goes--otherwise, if it's working, it looks like both PSU's are operating. > > ...or am I missing something here? The alarm isn't "disabled". Rather, it is tricked into not (*continually*!) signaling a failure in PSU #2 -- which is not present. Note my comment: >> I'm sure I can workaround the alarm -- add a jumper between the sense >> inputs (on the "environmental board") for the two power supplies. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 17:03:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 23:03:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: <588f242f4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 30, 6 02:15:42 pm Message-ID: > I think I've got a Sharp pen plotter that's the same - little tiny pens and a > paper roll (although IIRC you can feed it cut sheets as well). I've yet to > find anywhere that sells the pens, but apparently Radioshack used to stock > them. IIRC, the mecahnsim was made by Alps, and there are at least 2 sizes. There was a small one, about 2" wide used in the Sharp printer for the PC1500 calculator (sold in a slightly modified form as the PC2 by Radioshack). And a larger one, used in the Atari printer that started this thread, the Commodore 1520, Radio Shack CGP115, Oric printer [1], etc, etc, etc. Both units use the same pens. There was also a standard controller IC (it was a mask-programmed microcontroller, I forget which one, but it was something standard -- maybe 6805-like), which was used in some of the desktop printers. It had Centronics and 600 baud serial inputs. I have the Alps service documentation for this mechanism, but it doesn't show the motor pinion separately from the motor. I also haev an electronic 'typewriter' which uses a similar mechanism, but A4 width. It has a Centronics input, and responds to the same commands as the smaller units. Nor do I know of a source of pens. Radio Shack used to sell them years ago, not surpisingly. IIRC, there were 2 packs, a set of 3 black pens, and a set of 1 each of red, blue, green. The 'typewriter' I mentioned also can take a pen filled with Tipp-ex like correction fluid to use to delect characters (I am not joking!). [1] The Oric printer came in 2 colour schemes, white to match the original Oric 1, and orange to match the Atmos. Internally they are identical. Talking of Oric add-ons, does anyone know anything about the 3" disk drives for the Oric. I have a pair which have been messed about with by the previosu owner (I think he had 2 'master' units, with the internal controller board and was trying to turn on into a slave). One day I will sort them out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 17:13:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 23:13:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: from "Billy Pettit" at May 30, 6 01:28:53 pm Message-ID: > > They will become harder and harder to find and keep working. If you are > trying to keep the old systems running, you will eventually have to do a > dongle of some sort with newer drives. Why not now? > > > Keeping the old drives working is going to require parts and technology = > that > don't exist commercially any more. You can still find the high volume Thing is, the electronics of the older drives uses simpler ICs, and fewer custom parts. I would much rather repair an ST412 (for which I have schematics anyway) than the IDE thing I've just looked at. > circuitry in the surplus stores. But it's the heads and platters that = > wear > out and ferrite heads and oxide media are gone. Occasional bits and True. But other problems inside the HDA would be much easier to repair on an older drive with a much larger head flying height. I think it would be possible to make a 'clean box' to open up ST412s at home and repair them and expect the repaired HDA to be reliable enough to use. That is not the case with modern drives. = > pieces > show up less and less often. Why not put the energy into adapting the > latest drive technology? That buys you an extra decade or so.=20 Becasue by the time I've designed and debugged the interface, the darn drive I've chosen will be discontinued! > IDE drives are going to be around in far greater volumes long after the = > last > ST506 is still working. I just had a report that last year was the = I am not convinced of that, actually.... > biggest > year ever for hard drives: 376 million units, the huge majority IDE. = > That > gives a pool of drives to use that will outlast most of us on this list. > And there are already IDE to SATA dongles to stretch out another = > generation. > > > And there are the side issues to keeping the old systems going. How = > long > will we be able to find 8" and 5.25" media? Printer ribbons? Rubber = > parts > for teletypes and typewriters? When do you toss in the towel on trying = Rubber parts may not be a problem. There are 2-pack synthetic 'rubbers' made, e.g. by Devcon. The data sheet I've seen actually says they can be used to make rubber rollers. OK, you'd have to make a mould, but that's not beyond a good home workshop. And once you've done that you can turn out as many parts as you need. I might actually be doing this in the next year or so to make a roller for an old calculator printer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 17:19:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 23:19:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <200605301430240734.145802D3@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 30, 6 02:30:24 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/30/2006 at 1:28 PM Billy Pettit wrote: > > >Some time, we have to let go and upgrade as much as it is unaesthetic or > >displeasing. When? > > Now that's an interesting question.' > > I think if "maintainability" is plotted against time, it often looks like > a bell-shaped curve. Near the peak of the curve, we have devices that use > available commodity components (e.g. 7400-series TTL and/or discretes), so, > for example, it's possible to keep a PC XT mobo going for a long time. Way > off on the back end of the curve are devices constructed from things that > were once commodity items, but which are old enough to be rare > (point-contact transistors, germanium diodes, UV-201As, your 160A core, YEs, but most of those devices are well-understood, and there may well be workarounds. If you take a 1920's radio using UV201As, you could probably kludge FETs in place of them (doesn't some compay actually sell little PCBs to upt over the pins of dead UV201As to do this?). Germanium diodes can often be replaced with shottky diodes. And so on. Some of the odder TTL chips are getting hard to obtain now, but at least data sheets exist (I will _never_ give up my shelf of TI TTL handbooks...). I can see myself programming some modern CPLD-thing to replace an obscure TTL counter/decoder/whatever. Wasteful of resources in the new chip, sure, but it'll keep my PDPs, P800s, HP9800s, etc running. > etc.). Off the front end of the curve are those devices constructed from > devices that, although only slightly out of date, are no longer available > and whose specs may never have been published outside of an internal > company document (try to replace a house-numbered ASIC on a 1990's PC > mobo). That's the big problem. Even though you probably could replace one of these ASCIs with a modern FPGA suitably programmed, since you don't have the specs of it, you have a very long day ahaed of you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 17:28:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 23:28:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <575131af0605301449g489f1380k7c16e1c8322efaf7@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at May 30, 6 10:49:44 pm Message-ID: > After a while, when parts and consumables can no longer be found or > fabricated, old computers, like, say, old motorbikes, are going to > become purely museum pieces, that cannot actually be *run*. They're > already no use - you wouldn't go to work on a 1905 Douglas and you > wouldn't run a PDP-8 to read your email. Doesn't mean they're Why not? I would think a PDP8 would be a lot easier to keep running than a modern PC. You are speaking to somebody who is reading/writing mail on an old PC mainly because it is easier to maintain than a more modern machine. > valueless. Better to preserve them in their original state in a museum > than to bodge together some hybrid of ancient and modern kit. No, I disagree totally. I have no problem at all with making reverseable modificuations to old machines (be they computers or anything else). I certainly see no problem in plugging in a modern peripheral. Are you trying to convince me that I shouldn't use 74Fxxx parts to repair a PDP11 (they are much easier to get than 74Sxxx and work in most circuits). You'll really hate what I've done to a lot of machines here, then > > To give people the experience of using them, write and emulator & make > it perfect & faithful. That way,m the OS, the software, the data So far, no emulator has come anywhere near the experience of running the real machine. And I don't think it ever will for me. I want to be able to connect my 'scope (a real Tekky 555, please) to any pin of any component in the machine. And have all the feelings associated with so doing. > files, the *feel* of the machine can be kept alive indefinitely. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 30 18:11:10 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:11:10 -0600 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447CD10E.9000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > That's the big problem. Even though you probably could replace one of > these ASCIs with a modern FPGA suitably programmed, since you don't have > the specs of it, you have a very long day ahaed of you. FPGA's and CPLD's seem to be going obsolite even before the datasheets are printed or even updated on the web. The main problem with programable logic is that almost all the software is windows based that is low cost. Allmost all the high priced stuff is unix based and very closed source in most aspects. From cctalk at catcorner.org Tue May 30 18:36:59 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 19:36:59 -0400 Subject: Media Transfer (was RE: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360E5@MEOW.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 6:10 PM > > > > At the same time, I'm looking into a setup such that the > general public can > go into the "Historical Resource Center" and transfer their > old media to > modern media. I invision this including 5 1/4" floppies, and 3 1/2" > floppies at a minimum. (I figure at least Commodore, Apple > and PC). While > this can be done with a combination of old and new systems, > it might be better > to do it with a modern PC and a Catweasel card. I am currently working on just such a beast. I have had it running using 3.5, 5.25, and 8" media, 3 floppy controllers and 2 catweasels. Base unit was a Pentium 233MMX SBC and a 14 slot PICMG backplane running Debian Linux and DOS 6.22. Now, I'm trying to clean it up, upgrade the CPU and streamline the process. I have over a thousand 8" disks here from all kinds of systems that I'd like to inventory and make the contents available where possible. I'm even trying to parse the file systems so the user can extract files from certain formats. I'm starting with the Tandy/TRS-80 Model II line file systems (and there were a few) such as TRSDOSII, Xenix (file system and tar), TRSDOS16, LS-DOS and several CP/M formats. Like it or not, I'm using ImageDisk as the standard to store and access file content. It is much easier to parse than some of the other disk formats out there, and is quite well defined. Kelly From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 30 18:50:45 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Media Transfer (was RE: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360E5@MEOW.catcorner.org> from "Kelly Leavitt" at May 30, 2006 07:36:59 PM Message-ID: <200605302350.k4UNojH6009371@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm even trying to parse the file systems so the user can extract files > from certain formats. I'm starting with the Tandy/TRS-80 Model II line > file systems (and there were a few) such as TRSDOSII, Xenix (file system > and tar), TRSDOS16, LS-DOS and several CP/M formats. > > Like it or not, I'm using ImageDisk as the standard to store and access > file content. It is much easier to parse than some of the other disk > formats out there, and is quite well defined. > > Kelly Ideally I'd like to have it setup so a user can bring in a 3.5" or 5.25" floppy, stick it in the drive, and use a simple interface to copy/extract all the data to modern media. In the case of the old Home Computer formats such as C-64 or Apple ][, it would be nice to offer the option to copy to a disk image as well, that way they can access the files under an emulator. I'm guessing that's the only way to access some of the data. I'm not sure how practical this sort of thing is, but I know that there is interest in having a system setup that can at least handle 5.25" MS-DOS floppies. Zane From brad at heeltoe.com Tue May 30 19:34:41 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:34:41 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 May 2006 14:30:24 PDT." <200605301430240734.145802D3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605310034.k4V0Yfm8031038@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >If one wanted to make an ST-506 or 412 replacement, I'd be sore tempted >just to do it with some battery-backed SRAM and a microcontroller. You know, some friends of mine once did that for the original macintosh. I just remembered. They figured out the signals coming out of the floppy port in the back and faked the signals in software. With a z-80 if I recall correctly. I think it had a big (for the time) battery backed up sram bank. It was probably all of 1-2mb. I'm guessing this was essentially talking to the IWM (and doing group code) at the time I was working on the Hyperdrive and we had *10mb*, woo hoo. hmmm... I wonder if either of them saved any of that. I'll ask. those two guys later founded Shiva (and I got was a t-shirt! :-) -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 30 20:10:11 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:10:11 -0500 Subject: DG stuff arrived, plus a load of ibm diskettes & manuals Message-ID: <007c01c6844e$f7cb5010$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Stuff I got today, some of it will be available for trade. Data General blue rack Eclipse S/120 cpu 3rd party paper tape reader DG qfloppy 8" floppy drive DG 6100 disk drive DG 5821NT blue terminal 4 keyboards for 5821 terminal DG terminal printer 1 Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/jwest/dgporn Unfortunately the 5821 terminal is suffering from extreme screenrot. Most of the stuff is fairly dirty on the outside but quite clean on the inside. I also got the following DG manuals in case anyone is in need of copies: System manual (log of config/mods, local wiring diagrams, some schematics, PM's & upgrades, etc.) Eclipse S/120 Diagnostic & Maintenance manual Eclipse S/120 Computer System Hardware Reference Eclipse S/120 Assembly Language Programmer's Reference Programmers Reference Series, mod 6097/6098/6099/6100/6103 DG disc subsystems Dasher TP1 Terminal/Printer User Manual Dasher TP1 Terminal/Printer Operator's Manual Technical Manual (6040-6043) Dasher TP1 Technical Manual (6040-6043) Dasher TP1 Field Service Maintenance Procedures In addition, for some odd reason I got about 100 IBM sys/32/36 8" floppies in two IBM logo cases. Some of them are still in the shrinkwrap. Then about 9 or 10 of the normal size 8" floppy disk boxes, each full of IBM disks. Some are IBM microcode, some are IBM programs & utilities, most are userdata. Also got the following IBM manuals: IBM system/32 operator training book (includes sys/32 introduction, student data disk, and two cassette tapes) IBM system/36 system reference Sys/36 system messages, vol1 Sys/36 system messages, vol2 Sys/36 RPG messages Sys/36 Utilities messages, vol1 Sys/36 Utilities messages, vol2 All the ibm diskettes and ibm manuals are available immediately. I will keep most of the diskette cases. The DG stuff I'll keep till I do my DG refurb, then some of it will become available, likely the S/120 cpu. Jay West From aw288 at osfn.org Tue May 30 20:17:44 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If my CDC 160-A memory goes, there's no more core memories. Core memory can be repaired, but it isn't fun. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 30 20:18:29 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:18:29 -0700 Subject: Media Transfer (was RE: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") Message-ID: > I have over a thousand 8" disks here from all kinds of system The Computer History Museum has roughly 10,000 floppies, mostly 5 1/4" that I need to deal with as Software Curator, with more coming in every week. The plan is to preserve them as images, with interpretation and verification of contents to follow. > Like it or not, I'm using ImageDisk as the standard to store and access > file content. That should be fine for most soft-sectored formats. At this point it's more important to get the bits into some form that preservation through replication can start. It would be a good thing to start fingerprinting files with MD5 checksums and building a data base of known good images. Sadly, it appears through lack of response that Don Maslin's archive is going to have to be redone. I have several hundred disc images done as dmks that will have to be converted at some point. You'll also need to worry about virus checking, and verifing that the disc actually contains what you think it does, too. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 30 20:38:29 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:38:29 -0700 Subject: Media Transfer (was RE: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") Message-ID: > it would be nice to offer the option to copy to a > disk image as well > they can access the files under an emulator. > I'm guessing that's the only way to access some of the data. You should just image the disc, assuming you only have one shot at reading the data, and mess with interpreting it as a second step. Running an emulator with the necessary app, and screen scraping may be necessary to recover content in some cases. -- I should also mention that part of my charter is to build a library of media and file formats (I need it to interpret the stuff in the CHM archives) and to start putting together emulator suites for data recovery and for use in Museum online and physical exhibits. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 30 20:46:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:46:48 -0500 Subject: Media Transfer (was RE: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") References: Message-ID: <010201c68454$154a0690$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote.... > I should also mention that part of my charter is to build a library > of media and file formats (I need it to interpret the stuff in the > CHM archives) and to start putting together emulator suites for data > recovery and for use in Museum online and physical exhibits. I'm insanely jealous of you. I'm semi-retired, and would give my left arm for such a job :) Congrats on getting it again :) Jay West From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 30 20:54:33 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:54:33 -0700 Subject: Media Transfer (was RE: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") Message-ID: > I'm insanely jealous of you. I'm semi-retired, and would give my left arm > for such a job :) We're looking for volunteers :-) The other thing I have to do is get some better software web presence in place (to go along with the stuff at community.computerhistory.org/scc ) to put more of what we are doing out for people, and make it easier to get help from the community. Muesum pay ain't great, btw.. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Tue May 30 21:00:36 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 19:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff Message-ID: <20060531020036.68385.qmail@web81010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sweet! Got back into town to discover an Exidy Sorcerer waiting for me. System, S-100 expansion, dual 8" floppy drives, monitor and software and docs. I love the Sorcerer! :) List of stuff so far can be found at: http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/ExidyList.txt ----- David http://www.trailingedge.com From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue May 30 21:05:19 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 22:05:19 -0400 Subject: DG stuff arrived, plus a load of ibm diskettes & manuals In-Reply-To: <007c01c6844e$f7cb5010$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <007c01c6844e$f7cb5010$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Jay, Excellent DG rescue. That's a bummer about the 5821. Can you replace the CRT? Rob On May 30, 2006, at 9:10 PM, Jay West wrote: > Stuff I got today, some of it will be available for trade. > > Data General blue rack > Eclipse S/120 cpu > 3rd party paper tape reader > DG qfloppy 8" floppy drive > DG 6100 disk drive > DG 5821NT blue terminal > 4 keyboards for 5821 terminal > DG terminal printer 1 > > Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/jwest/dgporn From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 30 21:26:47 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:26:47 -0500 Subject: DG stuff arrived, plus a load of ibm diskettes & manuals References: <007c01c6844e$f7cb5010$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <012301c68459$ab156660$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Robert wrote.... > Excellent DG rescue. That's a bummer about the 5821. Can you replace > the CRT? >From an initial look just from the outside, I don't think that's a standard tube but I could well be wrong. Unfortunately, these terminals are rare enough that if it works, I will likely actually consider doing the" hot nichrome wire remove the safetyglass routine". A few other things I noticed... The floppy drive has a small rectangular opening next to the drive number decal where I THINK a switch went. That appears to be gone, just an opening there. On the TP1 terminal/printer, the enter key is stuck down. Could just be stuck, or, the spring mechanism could be gone or the key broken. Oh, and on a different system (my S/130) one of the front panel switches (or the mechanical switch underneath) is broken. Someone have a spare front panel board I could rob a switch from? Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 30 21:27:25 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:27:25 -0500 Subject: DG stuff arrived, plus a load of ibm diskettes & manuals References: <007c01c6844e$f7cb5010$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <012601c68459$c4312a30$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> IBM stuff all spoken for Jay From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue May 30 22:41:04 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 22:41:04 -0500 Subject: Media Transfer (was RE: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30360E5@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <20060531024253.UFXY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I'm even trying to parse the file systems so the user can extract files from certain formats. I'm > starting with the Tandy/TRS-80 Model II line file systems (and there were a few) such as TRSDOSII, > Xenix (file system and tar), TRSDOS16, LS-DOS and several CP/M formats. > > Like it or not, I'm using ImageDisk as the standard to store and access file content. It is much > easier to parse than some of the other disk formats out there, and is quite well defined. Hi Kelly, One of the things I plan to do "someday" is to put together some tools to provide read/write access to ImageDisk images at the file level - Hopefully using some kind of "definition file" to spec. how to decode the file system, so that support for new file systems can be easily added (at the very least - create a skeleton to provide a consistant user interface, and the .IMD file access, sector read/write and other manipulation functions). Haven't had time lately to really get started, however if you (or anyone else) is interested in working together on such a project, I am more than willing to help. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 30 22:54:28 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:54:28 +1200 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: References: <588f242f4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: On 5/31/06, Tony Duell wrote: > There was also a standard controller IC (it was a mask-programmed > microcontroller, I forget which one, but it was something standard -- > maybe 6805-like), which was used in some of the desktop printers. It had > Centronics and 600 baud serial inputs. The controller in the C= 1520 is a 6500-family masked-programmed controller and only implemented the C= IEC bus, not serial or Centronics. > I have the Alps service documentation for this mechanism, but it doesn't > show the motor pinion separately from the motor. That's a shame. I've contemplated what it would take to make a "negative gear" in some durable material like aluminum and experiment with extrusion molding of a "slug" which would then be cut down to the right length. Since I have a few bare Alps mechanisms, I've also contemplated experimentally turning down the motor shafts if I were to ever find a matching gear that was the right size except for shaft diameter. Anyone else here have any ideas on how to solve the perpetual cracked gear dilemma? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 30 23:42:20 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:42:20 +1200 Subject: Repairing modular power supplies In-Reply-To: <20060530165618.64330c9a@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <1e1fc3e90605291409s545d3e2crd9f244f9deb6c159@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060530071940.048b5f48@mail> <20060530165618.64330c9a@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: On 5/31/06, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 30 May 2006 07:22:26 -0500 > John Foust wrote: > > > He suggests that a common failure is fatigue at the connector. > Why do I associate DEC BA23 to this sentence in the context of smoking > PSUs? ;-) Heh... we had a genuine DEC-upgraded uVAX-I-to-uVAX-II BA23 (bought at full MSRP when they were new new new) want to smoke, but we caught it when the harness only smelled bad, before a full conflagration. As a result, I *always* check BA23s before powering them up for the first time in my care. Never had one go up in flames on my watch. ;-) -ethan From nico at farumdata.dk Tue May 30 23:56:08 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:56:08 +0200 Subject: Media Transfer (was RE: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") References: Message-ID: <000e01c6846e$880f7060$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Al Kossow" > > I'm insanely jealous of you. I'm semi-retired, and would give my left arm > > for such a job :) > > We're looking for volunteers :-) > Well, making by living from media conversion and related stuff, I should be able to qualify as an "able amateur". However, I'm in Europe, so I'll probably have to wait until some european museum gets the same idea... Nico From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 28 08:23:49 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 06:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS Message-ID: <20060528132349.64901.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> neither of you did. I had thought the correct terminology was HDV. Could swear I had seen references to that effect. My goof. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > You've got me confused, where do either I or the original poster say HDV? > > HVD is High Voltage Differential SCSI, an "archaic" form of SCSI that > allows for greater cable lengths than standard SCSI. I just retired > a system where the HVD Jukebox sat about 50 feet away from the Sun > Ultra 2's it was connected to. > > Zane > > >isnt it HDV - High Differential Voltage. Sorry to be a > >nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? > >--- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > > wrote: > >> At 4:36 PM -0700 5/27/06, Don Y wrote: > >> >I'm looking for two or three HVD wide SCSI SBUS > >cards > >> >to connect some storage arrays to an SS20. Does > >anyone > >> >have any that they would care to part with? > >> > >> Depending on what OS you intend to use, you'll want > >to watch out for > >> which cards you get. I know most of the ones we > >used at work > >> wouldn't work on newer than Solaris 2.6. > >> > >> Zane > >> > >> > >> -- > >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems > >Administrator | > >> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS > >Enthusiast | > >> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic > >Computer Collector | > >> > >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role > >Playing, | > >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer > >Museum. | > >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ > > | > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 28 13:03:40 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 11:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: nit (was: ISO: Wide HVD SCSI SBUS Message-ID: <20060528180340.98933.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> nah not more then I needed to know whatsoever. But excuse me while I mop the rest of my lunch off the floor...but yet the implications of the expression seem negative. Now...I wouldnt know firsthand, but if you were looking to get rid of lice, you would think it would be expedient to get rid of every last one. Hence a little nit-picking wouldnt necessarily be a bad thing. One would think. But Im sure we can all agree the undertaking would be a pretty lousy job LOL LOL LOL LOL! O man. O my God... --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On Sat, 27 May 2006, Chris M wrote: > > Sorry to be a > > nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? > > Nits are lice eggs. A very fine tooth comb will do (looks like, but is > much finer tooth than the tool that intel gives away to remove > processors). When dogs start rapidly, even frantically, diting at a spot > of their fur, they may be nit-picking fleas. > > If that isn't more than you wanted to know about it, . . . > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rsilacci at prodigy.net Sun May 28 13:14:08 2006 From: rsilacci at prodigy.net (Richard Silacci) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 11:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can anyone identify this IBM magnetic tape cartridge? Message-ID: <20060528181408.72748.qmail@web80223.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I might be a little late with the answer but that tape cartridge is used to program the IBM Magnetic Tape Selectric Composer "MTSC" announced in 1967. This was a cold type printing machine which was quite advanced for it's time. I worked for IBM and serviced these machines. Its nice to talk about the old days so let me know if there are any more questions, as long as I can remember the right answers. Richard Silacci http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=ibm+mtsc&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&x=wrt From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 28 17:29:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 15:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB dongles Message-ID: <20060528222923.33262.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> what about compact flash drives, which are IDEish in nature. Im all for authenticity, but if a solution presents itself, and Ill add one that may not be as volatile as magnetic media, Im equally gung-ho. Hey lookit, I just became a ho LOL LOL. Albeit cflash cards are themselves being phasored out (in favor of the smaller sd and xd nuisances). But theyre very cheap too...128megs ~ $10. Or 1gig for 25 after a rebate. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > So (to get it on-topic for classiccmp), people with machines that > > > only support IDE drives are going to have problems in the future > > > finding working replacements (I doubt very much if any of us could > > > repair any reasonably-modern IDE drive, alas). I've seen adapters to > > > use IDE drives on SATA hosts, but not the reverse. > > > > FWIW, all of the failures I've seen in an IDE drive were failures in the > > HDA, not in the electronics. "Boardswapping" a new board onto most IDE > > Sure, but the HDAs are not exactly home-repairable either. > > > drives is trivial if you have a couple spares of the same drive, if > > there's really a problem with the electronics. I know that may not > > But as you said, the electroncis is rarely the problem. > > One caveat in doing this is that I beleive some drives stored HDA > parameters (bad block lists, etc) in non-volatile memory on the logic > board. Swapping boards between seemingly identical drives won't always work. > > > appeal to you, Tony, but most of us don't have the ability or spare > > time to repair surface mount electronics... :) > > Having looked at some IDE drives I am not sure I do either. Very fine > pitch connections (tht I probably could solder if I had to) and nasty > ASICs that I can't get and don't understand. I would attempt to replace > standard components if I could prove that was the problem. > > > > > Anyhow, there's enough new products being designed with IDE hard drives > > in them, that IDE will still be around for at least 5 years if not > > much, much more... > > 5 years is not that long. > > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 28 23:02:02 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 21:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: nit Message-ID: <20060529040202.96615.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> o man thats cold --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > >> nit-picker. And how exactly does one pick a nit? > > > Nits are lice eggs. A very fine tooth comb will do > On Mon, 29 May 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > > a fine tool for combing your teeth? :-) > > actually, most flea and nit combs look exactly like the comb like tool > that Intel provides for removing Pentium. But the Intel pins are larger > than a normal flea or nit. I showed one to a dog groomer; she said that > it was "exactly the same, but this 'Intel' outfit must be dealing with > a lot of BIG bugs." > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From d.angst at s-tec.ch Mon May 29 01:26:26 2006 From: d.angst at s-tec.ch (Daniel Angst) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 08:26:26 +0200 Subject: about olivetti's m290 Message-ID: Daniel Angst EDV Support S-TEC electronics AG Industriestrasse 49 6300 Zug Tel: +41 41 760 30 88 Fax:+41 41 760 29 59 d.angst at s-tec.ch From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 29 20:08:42 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 18:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transporting an Arcade Cabinet Message-ID: <20060530010842.96416.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> my guess is laying it on its rear would be the best bet. If available cardboard boxes on the flat provide good insulation from shock. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Quick question, is it safe to lay an arcade cabinet on its side to > transport it? I've told the people wanting to know that it needs to > be transported standing up. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 29 21:58:48 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 23:58:48 -0300 Subject: 30 pin 2MB SIMMs References: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <024b01c68395$06eda080$01fea8c0@alpha> > One of these days, I keep meaning to harvest the right chips off of, > say, a 16MB 72-pin SIMM and transfer them to the 4MB 30-pin SIMM to > fully load it. That would bring one of my boards up to 32MB, a decent > amount for knocking around on, given that it's a 486-DX100. > If anyone has ever seen an 8MB 30-pin SIMM, I could put about 16 of them to use. Hi all, greetings from Brazil, first message here ;o) Well, there is - believe it or not - 16MB 30-pin SIMM. I always thought it was a mistake, but I saw that with my own eyes. Unbeliaveable as it can be, there is only ONE equipment I saw using that, which is a Equinox (or Ensoniq?) music keyboard. It was the first and last time. I hadn't ever stopped to think how can it be possible (maybe a non-standard pinout) but it is true indeed, 16 MB SIMMs, four of them making 64MB. Believe it or not. Greetz Alexandre Trying to fix a macintosh with a serious 5V memory problem :oP From albert_ibew at yahoo.com Tue May 30 12:25:04 2006 From: albert_ibew at yahoo.com (Marion Blanton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ELAN E9C manual Message-ID: <20060530172504.62878.qmail@web52813.mail.yahoo.com> I too, am looking for info as to how to use one of these. Did you ever find a manual? (ELAN E9C) Any help would be appreciated. Marion __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue May 30 14:46:25 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:46:25 +0100 Subject: Repair methods (was Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score) In-Reply-To: <200605291702.k4TH279k087258@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200605291702.k4TH279k087258@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > That raises an interesting point, actually. If the normal repair > method > when the machine was in active use was to replace a module (e.g. > board-swap), is it better (historically) to keep the machine as > original > as possible (by replacing just one component on the board), or to keep > the original repair methods? I know what I'm going to do, though. An interesting question. If you have a module of the same age, I don't see any problem with a module swap. That's what I do, but my modules are probably logically rather smaller. One printed circuit board holds one 3 input not-J not-K flip-flop. Another type has four And gates. When I eventually run low on spare modules I will have to start component level repair, hopefully being able to make 3 good modules out of 4 bad ones. You are probably wondering what computer I have, it is made of discrete Germanium transistors and diodes, has 2000 words of 48 bit core store, drums of 12000 words, half inch ten track magnetic tape at 300 bit per inch, card reader, card punch, line printer, paper tape reader, and a slow, more modern (BRPE) paper tape punch. It is an I.C.T. 1301 mainframe, first installed at the University of London in 1962 to handle administration, undergraduate matriculation and statistical analysis of exam results and allocating candidates their grades and printing pass slips. It weighs many tons and consumes 13kVA of three phase electricity when everything is running at the same time. In service it was normal to swap a complete PCB and send it back to base for repair. These would be repaired to original specification, going as far as going though quality assurance where they would test each soldered joint and apply a dob of red lacquer to each joint to show it had passed inspection. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 30 18:08:37 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Professional Graphics Adapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060530230837.23637.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I just received the first part of a shipment which > > includes an IBM 5175 monitor. The PGA card and > > possibly the AT box it resides in is on it's way. > I > > plugged the monitor into my Vermont Microsystems > card > > (essentially a PGA clone), and it worked like a > charm. > > Have yet to plug the monitor into a VGA card and > > investigate that noise (the PGA card possibly has > some > > funky syncing scheme, like combined sync or > > sync-on-green). But regardless, I'm desirous of > docs > > for these babies, technical or otherwise. > Programming > > infor-mation is of the utmost importance. Can > anyone > > help? > > I am reluctant to post this, because last time I > posted something similar > I got flamed, but anyway... > I have the official IBM Techref for the PGC card (I > believe that was the > official name, it was the Professional Graphics > Controller), and the > monitor. Complete with schemaitcs (which I can't > post, not having a > scanner) and programming info. I can extract useful > bits from the > programming docs if you like. Yes, tis a pain doing a search for Professional Graphics Adapter when others (seemingly IBM included) chose to refer to it as the Controller. I was under the impression it was referred to as the Options and Adapters manual or something. I was going to have the bloke send me the whole AT, so any s/w would be part of the deal (I already snagged IBM Professional Fortran 1.0 though, a true F77 implementation, written not by M$, but Ryan-McFarland). Trouble is I'm running out of space, so I e-mailed him last night and said just the controller for now. When I get the thing installed, I'll perhaps pester you for information then. > I assume you realise it does a hardware emulation of > the CGA card (not > including the 100*160 mode?). And that the 'better' > mode is not memory > mapped at all, rather you send commands to the card > to draw lines, > circles, etc. Better as in the hi-res analog color mode? The CGA mode on the VM card can accept graphics commands in BASIC, but at this moment I'm not able to ascertain whether or not that means it's bit-mappable (sounds like it though). Going on the presumption that you mean it never takes anything but special commands, as opposed to be all-points-addressable, this would mean, ummm, some sort of API is in play. Something burned into rom? Very interesting. Not sure if I'm disappointed or not though. I was kind of expecting a more mainstream type of card, for which I could program some really funky game or whatever. > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 30 18:09:01 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Professional Graphics Adapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060530230901.50777.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I just received the first part of a shipment which > > includes an IBM 5175 monitor. The PGA card and > > possibly the AT box it resides in is on it's way. > I > > plugged the monitor into my Vermont Microsystems > card > > (essentially a PGA clone), and it worked like a > charm. > > Have yet to plug the monitor into a VGA card and > > investigate that noise (the PGA card possibly has > some > > funky syncing scheme, like combined sync or > > sync-on-green). But regardless, I'm desirous of > docs > > for these babies, technical or otherwise. > Programming > > infor-mation is of the utmost importance. Can > anyone > > help? > > I am reluctant to post this, because last time I > posted something similar > I got flamed, but anyway... > I have the official IBM Techref for the PGC card (I > believe that was the > official name, it was the Professional Graphics > Controller), and the > monitor. Complete with schemaitcs (which I can't > post, not having a > scanner) and programming info. I can extract useful > bits from the > programming docs if you like. Yes, tis a pain doing a search for Professional Graphics Adapter when others (seemingly IBM included) chose to refer to it as the Controller. I was under the impression it was referred to as the Options and Adapters manual or something. I was going to have the bloke send me the whole AT, so any s/w would be part of the deal (I already snagged IBM Professional Fortran 1.0 though, a true F77 implementation, written not by M$, but Ryan-McFarland). Trouble is I'm running out of space, so I e-mailed him last night and said just the controller for now. When I get the thing installed, I'll perhaps pester you for information then. > I assume you realise it does a hardware emulation of > the CGA card (not > including the 100*160 mode?). And that the 'better' > mode is not memory > mapped at all, rather you send commands to the card > to draw lines, > circles, etc. Better as in the hi-res analog color mode? The CGA mode on the VM card can accept graphics commands in BASIC, but at this moment I'm not able to ascertain whether or not that means it's bit-mappable (sounds like it though). Going on the presumption that you mean it never takes anything but special commands, as opposed to be all-points-addressable, this would mean, ummm, some sort of API is in play. Something burned into rom? Very interesting. Not sure if I'm disappointed or not though. I was kind of expecting a more mainstream type of card, for which I could program some really funky game or whatever. > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 30 18:43:56 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060530234356.25537.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> >There comes a time when it's no longer viable to keep >old machines >running. Like my pre-1902 Pratt & Whitney precision bench lathe? I advise you NOT to utter that sort of language around a fanatical gear-head. He/she just might have a triangular hand scraper in their back pocket. Needless to say it's it has a keen edge! >Computers aren't anything unique in this regard. >The oldest human weapon that wasn't simply a thrown >object is probably >a sling. There's at least one nearly 3,000yr old one >that was found in >Egypt, but it's far too fragile to use or test - but >for trying it >out, it can be reconstructed: >http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/detail/details/index_no_lo>gin.php?objectid=UC6921&accesscheck=%2Fdetail%>2Fdetails%2Findex.php Point taken, but computers don't fall into the same category as rare ancient paraphernalia. Granted some of the real old stuph should be preserved in as original condition as possible, but half (or a much higher ration!) of the thrill of having these things around is the ability to fire them up. If there comes a point where this can't be done other then by substituting modern material, then I'm all for it. >After a while, when parts and consumables can no >longer be found or >fabricated, old computers, like, say, old motorbikes, >are going to >become purely museum pieces, that cannot actually be >*run*. They're >already no use - you wouldn't go to work on a 1905 >Douglas and you >wouldn't run a PDP-8 to read your email. Doesn't mean >they're >valueless. Better to preserve them in their original >state in a museum >than to bodge together some hybrid of ancient and >modern kit. Ehh I don't know. I would have to say it's a rare instance where parts for machinery and whatnot can't be reproduced. Regarding low-technologies, some have gone as far as to build backyard cupola furnaces for melting cast iron. Or natural draft units for melting bronze/brass, ala Theophilus. Microchips are more challenging granted. But I doubt the day is very far off when fabricating something as intricate as a microchip would be possible on your kitchen table. >To give people the experience of using them, write >and emulator & make >it perfect & faithful. That way,m the OS, the >software, the data >files, the *feel* of the machine can be kept alive >indefinitely. >One day, future computers won't run our >current "modern" software. But >we can run the emulator on an emulator when that >happens! I have nothing against emulators. But they're only one side of this vintage groove - the software side. And my hat goes off to those who have written emulators for classic stuph. But the investigation, maintenance, and when practical the reproduction of classic hardware is engaging persuit in itself. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 30 19:45:46 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Exxon series 500? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060411214220.4d0f1284@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20060531004546.85476.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> better late then never. There was this bizarro box on Ebay sometime ago, maybe like 1.5 - 2 years ago. I actually e-mailed the winner and asked him what he was going to do with it. The answer was typical one I guess, play w/it or whatever. Some kind of dedicated word processor in search of a hack. Was cheap enough, but I didn't feel like paying the shipping, so I didn't bid. Needless to say, the disks are worth imaging if possible. Someone's gonna want the stuph. --- "Joe R." wrote: > Anybody know what this is? I found three boxs of > new 5 1/4" disks for one > today. I picked them up becuase they're 96TPI DS DD > (aka DS QD) and I can > use them in my SB-180 puters and Nicolet DSO. I'm > just wondeering about > the computer that they're supposed to go with. > > Joe > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 31 01:17:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 23:17:12 -0700 Subject: Media Transfer (was RE: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605302317120702.163A4B3B@10.0.0.252> On 5/30/2006 at 6:18 PM Al Kossow wrote: >> Like it or not, I'm using ImageDisk as the standard to store and access >> file content. > >That should be fine for most soft-sectored formats. At this point it's >more important to get the bits into some form that preservation through >replication can start. It would be a good thing to start fingerprinting >files with MD5 checksums and building a data base of known good images. I would strongly advise against using any sort of "smart" controller (WD179x, NEC 765 family, etc.) as an archival way to preserve media. Any program using controller chips will lose everything that occurs outside of the expected sectors. For example, many WD controllers could and did format tracks without IAMs, which more often than not means that the first sector on the track will be missed. And a 765 can't be made to reliably read the IAM. Further, there are copy-protection schemes that are sometimes very bizarre. For example, early editions of Harvard Graphics placed an identifying string in the inter-sector gap. Of course, this isn't even going to save you in the case of Apple ][ half-tracked protection, but you'll be closer to retaining an accurate image in all cases, even if it does occupy 3 or more MB per diskette if you keep, say, a Catweasel image of what you want to preserve. ...and be sure to select the highest practical clock frequency on the Catweasel that you can to sample--it makes a difference in the recovery of the data. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 31 02:47:40 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:47:40 +0100 Subject: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff In-Reply-To: <20060531020036.68385.qmail@web81010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nice! Very similar to the lot I picked up on Monday, but having poked a couple of messages on here about it I think there's only 3 of us that are interested :o\ On 31/5/06 03:00, "nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com" wrote: > Sweet! Got back into town to discover an Exidy Sorcerer waiting for me. > System, S-100 expansion, dual 8" floppy drives, monitor and software and docs. > I love the Sorcerer! :) > > List of stuff so far can be found at: > http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/ExidyList.txt > > ----- > David > http://www.trailingedge.com > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From Mark.Wickens at valtech.co.uk Wed May 31 03:12:36 2006 From: Mark.Wickens at valtech.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:12:36 +0100 Subject: Benchmark Modula-2 Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone have a copy of Benchmark Modula-2 for the Amiga, originally published by Avante Garde software they could let me have? I've recently aquired an Amiga 1200 and it would be nice to use it again (from a hard disk rather than dual floppies this time!) My media has been lost in the ebbs of time, but I still have the original manual (what a fantastic one at that) and if necessary can therefore prove that a bought a copy many years ago. Is there anyone out there still using Modula-2 (or Oberon) for anything? Regards, Mark Wickens mark.wickens at valtech.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: This e-mail contains Proprietary information some or all of which may be legally privileged. It is for the intended recipient only. 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Registered address: 120 Aldersgate Street London EC1A 4JQ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 31 03:47:44 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:47:44 +0200 Subject: 30 pin 2MB SIMMs In-Reply-To: <024b01c68395$06eda080$01fea8c0@alpha> References: <2293.86.138.231.62.1148859905.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> <024b01c68395$06eda080$01fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20060531104744.19fab159@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Mon, 29 May 2006 23:58:48 -0300 "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > Well, there is - believe it or not - 16MB 30-pin SIMM. [...] > there is only ONE equipment I saw using > that, which is a Equinox (or Ensoniq?) music keyboard. They where also used by Sun. From the Sun hardware FAQ: 501-1686 4/6xx motherboard VME 0M Up to two Mbus modules. 20MHz SBus. [...] Memory consists of up to thirty-two 4M (501-1739) or 16M (501-2060) x 9 80ns 30-pin SIMMs in two banks of 16 each. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 31 05:37:09 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:37:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: More Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: Adrian Graham "More Exidy Sorcerer" (May 30, 1:39) References: Message-ID: <10605311137.ZM16805@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 30 2006, 1:39, Adrian Graham wrote: > I met the previous owner of this machine earlier tonight and I'm now the > owner of the best preserved example I've seen - no discolouration or dust > and some of the best internal wiring mods I've come across in a home > computer, almost works of art. Nice! In case you didn't know, I'm another long-time Sorcerer owner. It was my first machine, although the one I have now is not the one I originally owned. > Info is hopefully buried in the ESCape > magazines but if anyone has heard of them please let me know :) No help with the boards, but do you have many copies of ESCape? I was a subscriber from the beginning, but no longer have any. I'd like to get copies of some, especially the ones with Ray Bannon's games, and the one that describes the Toolkit (TLKIT). I have a legitimate copy of TLKIT but not the list of commands. I'm also looking for (copies of) the manuals for the WP Pac and DevPac, which I once owned, and if possible a dump of the DevPac ROMs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From allain at panix.com Wed May 31 06:48:39 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:48:39 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" References: <575131af0605301449g489f1380k7c16e1c8322efaf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c684a8$297148a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > There comes a time when it's no longer viable to keep old machines > running. Computers aren't anything unique in this regard. To be a wiseguy somewhat, I'd say it's summer. Keep your more precious beasts off when ambient is above 80 or certainly 90 degrees farenheit. Personally, I don't think continuous duty at all for anything >10y-o. Use commodity PC's for work not itself of historical significance. John A. From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 31 08:00:35 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:00:35 +0000 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0605301449g489f1380k7c16e1c8322efaf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0605310600n6641827eob421f6446da0ef12@mail.gmail.com> On 5/30/06, Tony Duell wrote: > Why not? I would think a PDP8 would be a lot easier to keep running than > a modern PC. Only to somebody with what is rapidly becoming a /very/ specialist skillset. > You are speaking to somebody who is reading/writing mail on > an old PC mainly because it is easier to maintain than a more modern machine. Fine. But for most people, modern PCs are a damn sight /easier./ All in one integrated motherboards, simple mix&match DIMMs, interchangeable commodity disks and screens and keyboards, simple USB peripherals. The day of the ?100 PC is just around the corner. Soon they'll be as disposable as transistor radios. Q.v. http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/05/1824094.php > No, I disagree totally. I have no problem at all with making reverseable > modificuations to old machines (be they computers or anything else). I > certainly see no problem in plugging in a modern peripheral. > > Are you trying to convince me that I shouldn't use 74Fxxx parts to repair > a PDP11 (they are much easier to get than 74Sxxx and work in most > circuits). You'll really hate what I've done to a lot of machines here, then I don't even know what a 74Fxxx is. I've been repairing and working on PCs and Macs for 20y now, I've built dozens and dozens of computers, and I don't own a multimeter or an oscilloscope and never have. I have a soldering iron; I use it occasionally to fix the lights on my bicycle. This is great stuff if you know it, but it's no more relevant to C21 computing than the correct bloodletting and the correct administration of laudanum is to C21 medicine. It's an admirable skill and I salute you, but it's not mainstream any more. I'm not saying it's not worthwhile; I'm just saying that things have moved on. If a circuit board fails in a modern machine, recycle it & bung in a new one. For many people, it's already a case of "if the PC fails, or just gets a bit slow, bin it & get a new one." My front-room Linux box came out of a skip in Brighton; a perfectly-working Cyrix 550MHz PC with 128M RAM, a 40G HD and a CD burner. Now it's a 1.2GHz Duron with 256M RAM, 2 x 10G HDs and Ubuntu, and it was all built out of scrap. The 40G disk is part of the RAID in my fileserver, a dual PII 400, all from free junk kit. > So far, no emulator has come anywhere near the experience of running the > real machine. And I don't think it ever will for me. I want to be able to > connect my 'scope (a real Tekky 555, please) to any pin of any component > in the machine. And have all the feelings associated with so doing. Yeah, it's not quite the same, but you do realise, we're talking of something of the level of a glass case in a museum, with a few shiny buttons and lights for people to play with for 5min? They will neither know nor care. Secondly, as far as preserving old kit for posterity, your hacked-about with machines will confuse other techies, who would probably have more chance of getting the original unmodified kit they know going than something with home-made one-off upgrades. In the longer run, after you are no longer in a position to maintain it, the stock kit has better prospects. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 31 08:03:18 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:03:18 +0000 Subject: Legacy restoration /par excellence/: Tatjana van Vark's NBS Message-ID: <575131af0605310603k58578270x3132f19bde124d2e@mail.gmail.com> Navigation and Bombing System NBS (H2S Mk 9A and Navigation, Bombing and Computer NBC) used in V-bombers Victor, Vulcan and Valiant. http://tatjavanvark.nl/tvve/dduck0.html -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 31 08:11:49 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Benchmark Modula-2 In-Reply-To: from Mark Wickens at "May 31, 6 09:12:36 am" Message-ID: <200605311311.k4VDBnlB016332@floodgap.com> > Is there anyone out there still using Modula-2 (or Oberon) for anything? http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/mac/ahl/ Look under Source and Discussion. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Life is too important to take seriously. -- Corky Siegel ------------------- From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed May 31 09:48:31 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <10605311137.ZM16805@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20060531144831.98243.qmail@web81004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have the Word Pac and DevPac manuals that I'll be putting up on the Exidy section of my site. It will probably be a little over a month before I can get to it as I'm currently traveling a lot for work. ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Pete Turnbull To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:37:09 AM Subject: Re: More Exidy Sorcerer I'm also looking for (copies of) the manuals for the WP Pac and DevPac, which I once owned, and if possible a dump of the DevPac ROMs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From alberto at a2sistemi.it Wed May 31 10:35:39 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:35:39 +0200 Subject: about olivetti's m290 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Daniel Angst > EDV Support What are you looking for about Olivetti M290 ? Check on my website, there is technical manual http://www.retrocomputing.net/phpengine/scheda/sch2005.php/Language=ENG/Mode =Display/Item=691/Letter=O/Marca=12/Pagina=Documentazione Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 31 10:44:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:44:01 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <575131af0605310600n6641827eob421f6446da0ef12@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0605301449g489f1380k7c16e1c8322efaf7@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0605310600n6641827eob421f6446da0ef12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605310844010568.18413A4F@10.0.0.252> On 5/31/2006 at 1:00 PM Liam Proven wrote: >Yeah, it's not quite the same, but you do realise, we're talking of >something of the level of a glass case in a museum, with a few shiny >buttons and lights for people to play with for 5min? They will neither >know nor care. I suspect that part of what's going on here is the personal association with an old piece of hardware and wanting to keep the memory of the experience alive. (If that makes any sense). My father once wanted to acquire an old receiver because he remembered tinkering with A and B batteries, variocouiplers, book variable capacitors and other bits of early electronics when he was young. He eventually found an old Atwater-Kent, but soon tired of it when he realized that what wasn't there was the old radio programming. Old receivers can make interesting decorations, but modern gear does the job better and cheaper. I still have a couple of old systems that I was part of the development effort on back in the 1970's. They work, but, after all, they're pretty limited in capability and I've tried to give them away. I'll probably hang onto them for a couple of more years and then, if there are no takers, break them down and recycle their parts. After all, what's the difference between machines that run CP/M 2.2? (These run a proprietary operationg system, but compared to NetBSD, it's painfully primitive). Besides, I have an emulator that seamlessly integrates most of the useful CP/M programs into Windows 2000, if I have such a need. While I have some pleasant memories of the experiences, I have no desire to revisit the days of big mainframes. Compared to today's hardware, they were big, slow, noisy and terribly unreliable. While I think that it's worthwhile keeping samples of the old stuff around for museums as well as preserving the ephemera and media content for historical purposes, keeping old hardware alive for personal collections has a purpose that eludes my understanding. I have a small collection of old musical instruments, but one can still play a 100 year old cornet or tuba and it compares favorably with items of modern manufacture. Cheers, Chuck From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Wed May 31 11:39:17 2006 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:39:17 +0200 Subject: Looking for 0.75" width endless printer ribbon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I am searching for an endless printer ribbon with a width size of 0.75" (19mm) to replace an worn-out IBM ribbon that is not available anymore. Anyone any idea on a good subsitute ? My idea is to remove the ribbon from the subsitute and replace the worn-out one in the IBM cartridge. Thanks for your replies. Henk From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed May 31 12:34:24 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:34:24 -0700 Subject: Looking for 0.75" width endless printer ribbon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447DD3A0.3070700@DakotaCom.Net> Henk Stegeman wrote: > Hi, > > I am searching for an endless printer ribbon with > a width size of 0.75" (19mm) to replace an worn-out > IBM ribbon that is not available anymore. > > Anyone any idea on a good subsitute ? > > My idea is to remove the ribbon from the subsitute > and replace the worn-out one in the IBM cartridge. > > Thanks for your replies. Ribbons can be reinked - if you can find a vendor nearby that still offers this service. I would think that easier/safer than trying to remove the "good" ribbon and hopefully manage to make it fit into the shell for the old ribbon (maximum entropy in ribbon packing :> yet, you still have to hope your new ribbon isn't too long to fill the space available!) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 13:16:42 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <200605310844010568.18413A4F@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 31, 2006 08:44:01 AM Message-ID: <200605311816.k4VIGgBS028933@onyx.spiritone.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/31/2006 at 1:00 PM Liam Proven wrote: > > >Yeah, it's not quite the same, but you do realise, we're talking of > >something of the level of a glass case in a museum, with a few shiny > >buttons and lights for people to play with for 5min? They will neither > >know nor care. > > I suspect that part of what's going on here is the personal association > with an old piece of hardware and wanting to keep the memory of the > experience alive. (If that makes any sense). There is also a segment that is interested in playing with the software running on real hardware. This, and an interest in preserving the systems from a historical point of view, would describe me. I have fond memories of my VIC-20 and Kaypro 2000 (an early laptop), and wish I still had both systems (espiecially the kit built pieces of the VIC-20), but realisically, I have no desire to touch them. Either on a hardware or software level. As much as I hated the C-64 at the time (because it obsoleted my VIC-20 a few months after I got it, the C-64 is a much more interesting system). I am interested in the C-64 and Apple ][ computers, and in keeping them running, I had neither when they were current, and only got to touch one a couple times back then. I'm actually looking at the devices that let you use MMC cards with interest (I know they exist for the C-64, and assume they exist for the Apple ][). The same goes for the PDP-11 to a certain extent, however, I've moved to SCSI drives on both my Unibus system, and my Q-Bus systems. In the case of the PDP-11's though I'm more inclined to use an emulator, and have been leaning towards prefering the emulator for several years. > While I have some pleasant memories of the experiences, I have no desire to > revisit the days of big mainframes. Compared to today's hardware, they > were big, slow, noisy and terribly unreliable. I don't care to revisit the days of the big mainframes, however, I would like to be able to tinker around on an emulator with GCOS-8, and I do enjoy playing with TOPS-10 and TOPS-20. I neither have the room, or desire to try to keep the hardware needed to run these systems going, nor can I afford the electricity. > While I think that it's worthwhile keeping samples of the old stuff around > for museums as well as preserving the ephemera and media content for > historical purposes, This is where I'm starting to become actively involved. In part because I've spent a lot of my own money preserving and storing this stuff, that would be better off in a museum. Parts of my collection have started to move to where they can be retained, and as well as possible preserved for future generations. While this isn't saving any money, it has already started to allow us to have more room in our apartment. > keeping old hardware alive for personal collections > has a purpose that eludes my understanding. Basically it's the I/O devices. Seriously. Other than the I/O devices you're better off emulating where possible on modern hardware. Zane From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed May 31 13:19:16 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:19:16 -0700 Subject: Legacy restoration /par excellence/: Tatjana van Vark's NBS In-Reply-To: <575131af0605310603k58578270x3132f19bde124d2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0605310603k58578270x3132f19bde124d2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <447DDE24.3020001@msm.umr.edu> Liam Proven wrote: > Navigation and Bombing System NBS > (H2S Mk 9A and Navigation, Bombing and Computer NBC) > used in V-bombers Victor, Vulcan and Valiant. > > http://tatjavanvark.nl/tvve/dduck0.html > Also home built enigma, with challenge cipher http://tatjavanvark.nl/tvv1/pht10.html Jim From bpope at wordstock.com Wed May 31 13:40:49 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <200605311816.k4VIGgBS028933@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060531184049.C5BC358276@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > > I am interested in the C-64 and Apple ][ computers, and in keeping them > running, I had neither when they were current, and only got to touch one a > couple times back then. I'm actually looking at the devices that let you > use MMC cards with interest (I know they exist for the C-64, and assume they > exist for the Apple ][). The same goes for the PDP-11 to a certain extent, > however, I've moved to SCSI drives on both my Unibus system, and my Q-Bus > systems. In the case of the PDP-11's though I'm more inclined to use an > emulator, and have been leaning towards prefering the emulator for several > years. > Zane, There is the IDE64 which allows you to hookup IDE drive, CD/DVD-ROMS and Compact Flash cards. Plus the creator is working on an ethernet adapter that would attach to it. Right now the IDE64 board is in its fourth revision. There is also the Retro Replay cartridge (a program freezer) which has an addon called the RR-Net that gives you a 10Mbps (yes I know the C64 can't move that much data!) ;) ethernet port. This is supported by the Contiki OS which is set to move to V2.0. Cheers, Bryan From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed May 31 12:44:45 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:44:45 +0100 Subject: Benchmark Modula-2 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 31 May 2006 09:12:36 BST." Message-ID: <200605311744.SAA04502@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Mark Wickens said: > > Is there anyone out there still using Modula-2 (or Oberon) for anything? I've got an old PC running Native Oberon as the OS. It mostly gets used as a telnet terminal because Oberon's telnet is quicker amd more responsive than unix telnet in xterm, especially when running multiple sessions. I've written a few little apps, but nothing complex or interesting. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 31 13:35:27 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:35:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: More Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: "Re: More Exidy Sorcerer" (May 31, 7:48) References: <20060531144831.98243.qmail@web81004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10605311935.ZM17728@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On May 31 2006, 7:48, David Williams wrote: > I have the Word Pac and DevPac manuals that I'll be putting > up on the Exidy section of my site. It will probably be a > little over a month before I can get to it as I'm currently > traveling a lot for work. It'll probably more than a month before I get around to doing anything with it anyway! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 31 13:48:47 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:48:47 +0100 Subject: More Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <10605311137.ZM16805@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 31/5/06 11:37, "Pete Turnbull" wrote: > Nice! In case you didn't know, I'm another long-time Sorcerer owner. > It was my first machine, although the one I have now is not the one I > originally owned. I've since discovered it wasn't the previous owner who did all the mods to this one but a bloke from my home town who sold it in the early 80s! Coals to Newcastle and all that :o) > No help with the boards, but do you have many copies of ESCape? I was > a subscriber from the beginning, but no longer have any. I'd like to > get copies of some, especially the ones with Ray Bannon's games, and > the one that describes the Toolkit (TLKIT). I have a legitimate copy > of TLKIT but not the list of commands. I've got issues 5 to 43 ("The Last One") as well as 4 copies of ISIS (the Canadian user group) and issues 14 to 20 of the Dutch user group, ESGG.. Somewhere I think is the Toolkit docs.....*rummage*....well, a couple of sheets marked 'Toolkit' anyway. All official tech docs as well. > I'm also looking for (copies of) the manuals for the WP Pac and DevPac, > which I once owned, and if possible a dump of the DevPac ROMs. Can't help there I'm afraid, but I see David's got them.... Pictures tonight I hope! cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 31 14:23:31 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:23:31 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? Message-ID: Does anyone know of a supplier of 6-32 pancake head machine screws? I didn't even know this head style existed until someone told be about it this morning. It is the flattest style of pan head type screws. Google turns up nothing. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed May 31 15:06:43 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:06:43 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447DF753.7030108@DakotaCom.Net> Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone know of a supplier of 6-32 pancake head machine screws? > > I didn't even know this head style existed until someone told be about > it this morning. It is the flattest style of pan head type screws. > > Google turns up nothing. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 31 15:00:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:00:19 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605311300190654.192BE05B@10.0.0.252> On 5/31/2006 at 12:23 PM Al Kossow wrote: >Does anyone know of a supplier of 6-32 pancake head machine screws? > >I didn't even know this head style existed until someone told be about >it this morning. It is the flattest style of pan head type screws. Are they similar to these? http://tinyurl.com/n382a Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed May 31 15:10:08 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:10:08 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447DF820.2080404@DakotaCom.Net> [Grrrr... pass the pointy hat. Sorry, I clicked on the wrong icon] Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone know of a supplier of 6-32 pancake head machine screws? > > I didn't even know this head style existed until someone told be about > it this morning. It is the flattest style of pan head type screws. > > Google turns up nothing. You'd be amazed at the number of different types of screw heads (flat, pan, oval, etc.), screwdriver point types (pozidrive, reeds & prince, philips, torx, clutch, etc.) How many are you looking for? I can dig through my "junque hardware" bins and see what I can cull... From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed May 31 15:12:46 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:12:46 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: <200605311300190654.192BE05B@10.0.0.252> References: <200605311300190654.192BE05B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <447DF8BE.9070506@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/31/2006 at 12:23 PM Al Kossow wrote: > >> Does anyone know of a supplier of 6-32 pancake head machine screws? >> >> I didn't even know this head style existed until someone told be about >> it this morning. It is the flattest style of pan head type screws. > > Are they similar to these? > > http://tinyurl.com/n382a No. They are *flat*. Imagine a flat head *nail* with a "slot" (cross) cut in the head... From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 31 15:23:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:23:26 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: <447DF8BE.9070506@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200605311300190654.192BE05B@10.0.0.252> <447DF8BE.9070506@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605311323260782.19410AC6@10.0.0.252> On 5/31/2006 at 1:12 PM Don Y wrote: >No. They are *flat*. Imagine a flat head *nail* with a >"slot" (cross) cut in the head... ...so it's flatter than a truss head? I've got some Type T 6-32s that are pretty flat, but they require a special driver. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed May 31 15:27:31 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:27:31 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447DFC33.20006@mindspring.com> See the picture here anywhere: http://tinyurl.com/o94jm ? Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone know of a supplier of 6-32 pancake head machine screws? > > I didn't even know this head style existed until someone told be about > it this morning. It is the flattest style of pan head type screws. > > Google turns up nothing. > > > > From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed May 31 15:48:40 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:48:40 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: <447DFC33.20006@mindspring.com> References: <447DFC33.20006@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <447E0128.7030000@DakotaCom.Net> Don North wrote: > See the picture here anywhere: http://tinyurl.com/o94jm ? No. Take the flat head screw (shown)... remove the bevel on the back edge (so the head is a slice of a cylinder) Then, make the head *half* that thickness. As I said... imagine a *nail* with a slot cut in it... From devonstopps at gmail.com Wed May 31 16:12:02 2006 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:12:02 -0400 Subject: Available: IBM belt printer ribbon In-Reply-To: <200605311700.k4VH05ar015039@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20060531164501.0264cf80@pop.gmail.com> Speaking of printer ribbons, I've got a "Data Processing Ribbon for IBM Belt Printers" sitting here unopened. Free to anyone who wants to pay shipping from Ontario, Canada. Shouldn't be much in a padded envelope. Box states it replaces IBM NO. 1136634, including the following machines: 3288, 3618, 3717, 3775, 3784, 3791 (Features 4710 & 4711), 3792 (Features 4712 & 4713), 5024 Models 1 & 3, 5320 (B Models). Nylon, with about a 13mm ribbon width. T.H.x. Devon >Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:39:17 +0200 >From: "Henk Stegeman" >Subject: Looking for 0.75" width endless printer ribbon >To: >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Hi, > >I am searching for an endless printer ribbon with >a width size of 0.75" (19mm) to replace an worn-out >IBM ribbon that is not available anymore. > >Anyone any idea on a good subsitute ? > >My idea is to remove the ribbon from the subsitute >and replace the worn-out one in the IBM cartridge. > >Thanks for your replies. > >Henk From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed May 31 16:16:14 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:16:14 -0400 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: <447E0128.7030000@DakotaCom.Net> References: <447DFC33.20006@mindspring.com> <447DFC33.20006@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060531171442.0591d9f8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Don Y may have mentioned these words: >Don North wrote: >>See the picture here anywhere: http://tinyurl.com/o94jm ? > >No. Take the flat head screw (shown)... >remove the bevel on the back edge (so the head >is a slice of a cylinder) >Then, make the head *half* that thickness. > >As I said... imagine a *nail* with a slot cut in it... slot (regular) or phillips? Some PC cases are coming with screws like that (if I understand correctly) but I don't know what thread/pitch they are... Maybe if you let us know what you need to use them with, we might be able to find some kicking around... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed May 31 16:36:20 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:36:20 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060531171442.0591d9f8@mail.30below.com> References: <447DFC33.20006@mindspring.com> <447DFC33.20006@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060531171442.0591d9f8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <447E0C54.6070109@DakotaCom.Net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Don Y may have mentioned these words: >> Don North wrote: >>> See the picture here anywhere: http://tinyurl.com/o94jm ? >> >> No. Take the flat head screw (shown)... >> remove the bevel on the back edge (so the head >> is a slice of a cylinder) >> Then, make the head *half* that thickness. >> >> As I said... imagine a *nail* with a slot cut in it... > > slot (regular) or phillips? Head style and slot style are independant choices -- though all of them that I have seen are phillips. The depth of this "slot" is very shallow as the head is very thin. Probably half as thick as the distance from flat to crown on a *pan* head screw... > Some PC cases are coming with screws like that (if I understand > correctly) but I don't know what thread/pitch they are... > > Maybe if you let us know what you need to use them with, we might be > able to find some kicking around... I use them for mounting drives (tape, disk, etc.) in those cases where you mount from below. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 31 16:42:20 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:42:20 -0400 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: <447E0C54.6070109@DakotaCom.Net> References: <447DFC33.20006@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060531171442.0591d9f8@mail.30below.com> <447E0C54.6070109@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200605311742.20602.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 31 May 2006 17:36, Don Y wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Rumor has it that Don Y may have mentioned these words: > >> Don North wrote: > >>> See the picture here anywhere: http://tinyurl.com/o94jm ? > >> > >> No. Take the flat head screw (shown)... > >> remove the bevel on the back edge (so the head > >> is a slice of a cylinder) > >> Then, make the head *half* that thickness. > >> > >> As I said... imagine a *nail* with a slot cut in it... > > > > slot (regular) or phillips? > > Head style and slot style are independant choices -- though > all of them that I have seen are phillips. The depth of > this "slot" is very shallow as the head is very thin. > Probably half as thick as the distance from flat to crown > on a *pan* head screw... FWIW, these are common in the T8 torx variety (typically stainless steel as well) in 3.5" disk drives. The ones I have on my desk aren't a 6-32 thread though. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed May 31 17:05:32 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:05:32 +0100 Subject: C64 Software available (UK) Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060531225229.060af7c8@irrelevant.com> As apparently nobody else wanted it, and I was picking up some other bits at the time,[*] I was given a big box (about 4 cubic foot) of C64 software last week. Mostly cassette based stuff, and most with boxes, books, etc., although I haven't looked through it properly - I don't have a C64, or anything commodore, to use them with! I was told there are some rare gems in there... Anyway, it's all free to anybody who can collect (Salford/Manchester, UK) //this week or weekend// or is willing to pay for the postage plus a couple of quid for my time finding a better box and re-packing it. (Postage would be about ?8 within UK if I remember my local carrier prices correctly.) Rob. direct email - robert.at.irrelevant-dot-com. [*] This came from the local freecycle list and as such you should feel honor bound not to take it simply to sell it for profit. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 31 17:13:39 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:13:39 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? Message-ID: > As I said... imagine a *nail* with a slot cut in it... exactly.. > Maybe if you let us know what you need to use them with They are the drive mounting screws used to attach drives to Xserve drive modules (sometimes called Apple ADMs) http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4969/pic88q4in.jpg This is a really brain-dead design. The dimples require the use of pancake head screws. Actually.. it turned out I found some flat heads this afternoon at Halted that work, and don't extend much beyond the dimple that I've pushed into service. This is all for a dual 1.6TB array that I'm putting together for CHM as the bits repository. (to stay somewhat on topic, though I thought this was weird enough that it was appropriate for classiccmp) From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 31 17:41:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:41:41 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605311541410685.19BF9BB3@10.0.0.252> On 5/31/2006 at 3:13 PM Al Kossow wrote: >Actually.. it turned out I found some flat heads this afternoon at >Halted that work, and don't extend much beyond the dimple that I've >pushed into service. I was about to suggest that you use some truss-heads and file the top a bit. I've seen cheese-head Torx screws a lot, but the head sounds as if it's way too thick. As I mentioned, I've got a bunch of type-T screws that are probably very close, but they have the three "dimples" on the top for drive. Good that you found something would work. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 31 18:02:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:02:13 -0700 Subject: Looking for 0.75" width endless printer ribbon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200605311602130578.19D2678A@10.0.0.252> On 5/31/2006 at 6:39 PM Henk Stegeman wrote: >I am searching for an endless printer ribbon with >a width size of 0.75" (19mm) to replace an worn-out >IBM ribbon that is not available anymore. > >Anyone any idea on a good subsitute ? You didn't say what length is required. However, there is a readily available HP ribbon cartridge with a 3/4" endless ribbon that is about 40-50 yards in length. It fits the HP 2932A printer. Nu Kote markets it as the BM 353. Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at wowway.com Wed May 31 18:26:46 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:26:46 -0400 Subject: Looking for 0.75" width endless printer ribbon In-Reply-To: <200605311602130578.19D2678A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200605312324.k4VNOAu21320@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> That should work, it is way too long, and most likely will refill 3 of the IBM cartridges. The trick will be to make a heat sealer to melt the ends together to make it a continuous loop again. But we are working with nilon, it melts easy. I am working with the same cartridges as Henk is. I was looking at building a reinking system, while he took the replacement approach. The other Bob On Wed, 31 May 2006 16:02:13 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 5/31/2006 at 6:39 PM Henk Stegeman wrote: >>I am searching for an endless printer ribbon with >>a width size of 0.75" (19mm) to replace an worn-out >>IBM ribbon that is not available anymore. >> >>Anyone any idea on a good subsitute ? >You didn't say what length is required. However, there is a readily >available HP ribbon cartridge with a 3/4" endless ribbon that is about >40-50 yards in length. It fits the HP 2932A printer. Nu Kote markets it >as the BM 353. >Cheers, >Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 17:26:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:26:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB dongles In-Reply-To: <20060528222923.33262.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 28, 6 03:29:23 pm Message-ID: > lookit, I just became a ho LOL LOL. Albeit cflash > cards are themselves being phasored out (in favor of That's a good enough reason for me _not_ to design anything using them. Flash memoery has a limited (albeit large) number of write cycles, and I am not going to design something round a product that is (a) going to be hard to find and (b) haev a limited working life anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 17:55:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:55:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 31, 6 03:54:28 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/31/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > There was also a standard controller IC (it was a mask-programmed > > microcontroller, I forget which one, but it was something standard -- > > maybe 6805-like), which was used in some of the desktop printers. It had > > Centronics and 600 baud serial inputs. > > The controller in the C= 1520 is a 6500-family masked-programmed > controller and only implemented the C= IEC bus, not serial or > Centronics. Yes, that's one of the odd ones (I have the schematic for the 1520 somewhere). Another odd one is the printer for the PC1500 handheld, it's just an I/O chip that sits on the PC1500 processor bus, and some drivers. Firmware running on the PC1500's processor drives the plotter. > I've contemplated what it would take to make a "negative gear" in some > durable material like aluminum and experiment with extrusion molding Yes, I've wondered about that too. Maybe EDM would be the way to make it (but I've not tried). > of a "slug" which would then be cut down to the right length. Since I > have a few bare Alps mechanisms, I've also contemplated experimentally > turning down the motor shafts if I were to ever find a matching gear > that was the right size except for shaft diameter. Anyone else here > have any ideas on how to solve the perpetual cracked gear dilemma? I am wondering aobut making lantern pinions the right size. Yes, the tooth profile on the meshing gear in the plotter would be wrong, but would it matter? And a lantern pinion is a lot easier to make than the original type. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 17:31:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:31:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Repair methods (was Cromemco 3101/Beehive B150 score) In-Reply-To: from "Roger Holmes" at May 30, 6 08:46:25 pm Message-ID: > An interesting question. > > If you have a module of the same age, I don't see any problem with a > module swap. My main objection, actually, is to _random_ module-swapping, as suggested by certain HP calculator service manuals. How you can _know_ the fault has been cured if you don't know what/where it is is beyond me. > That's what I do, but my modules are probably logically rather > smaller. One printed > circuit board holds one 3 input not-J not-K flip-flop. Another type > has four And gates. But why not repair them? I can't believe they're that complicated to test or debug. And I would have thought the components were a lot easier to find than complete modules. > When I eventually run low on spare modules I will have to start > component level > repair, hopefully being able to make 3 good modules out of 4 bad ones. That is one reason why you should never throw away a defective PCB. It might well be repairable later, or you might be able to use parts from it to fix another board. OK, 'almost never' -- ISA cards with one ASIC and not much else don't count :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 17:58:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:58:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at May 31, 6 08:47:40 am Message-ID: > > Nice! Very similar to the lot I picked up on Monday, but having poked a > couple of messages on here about it I think there's only 3 of us that are > interested :o\ FWIW, I ahve a Sorceror, the S100 box, the BASIC ROM cartridge and one other cartridge (I asusme you've noticed these are actually modified 8-track tape cases!), and the manuals (including the technical manuals). Oh, and ESC newsletters 1-30 (I think I have the full run). But I've not done anything with it recently. Too many other machines to work on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 17:38:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:38:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM Professional Graphics Adapter In-Reply-To: <20060530230901.50777.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 30, 6 04:09:01 pm Message-ID: > Yes, tis a pain doing a search for Professional > Graphics Adapter when others (seemingly IBM included) > chose to refer to it as the Controller. I was under > the impression it was referred to as the Options and > Adapters manual or something. I was going to have the The manul that covers it _is_ the 'Scientific Options and Adapters Technical Reference' (which also covers the GPIB adapter, Data Aquisition Adapter, the connector pannel for that, and the professional colour monitor) An amusing typo (I assume). When I ordered the Options and Adapters Techrefs from IBM, they could find no refernce to them on their computer system. I eventually found a 'form number' for them, and attempted to order them by that. THat they could find (and had stocks of the appropriate manuals), so I asked them what it was the form number for. They told me 'Questions and Answers technical references'. Presumably : Options and Adapters -> O & A -> Q -> A (obvious typo) -> Questions and Answers > > I assume you realise it does a hardware emulation of > > the CGA card (not > > including the 100*160 mode?). And that the 'better' > > mode is not memory > > mapped at all, rather you send commands to the card > > to draw lines, > > circles, etc. > > Better as in the hi-res analog color mode? The CGA > mode on the VM card can accept graphics commands in > BASIC, but at this moment I'm not able to ascertain > whether or not that means it's bit-mappable (sounds > like it though). It exactly emulates the CGA card, at least in the 320*200 and 640*200 modes. That means it responds to memory accesses in the appropriate range and displays the pixels appropriately (I can't rememebr if it actually has physical memory for this, or just grabs the address as well as the data and works out what point to plot). The high-res mode does _NOT_ reposnd to memory accesses in this way. You have to send it the special commands, it then changes the appropriate pixels on the screen. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 17:40:49 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <447CD10E.9000301@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at May 30, 6 05:11:10 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > That's the big problem. Even though you probably could replace one of > > these ASCIs with a modern FPGA suitably programmed, since you don't have > > the specs of it, you have a very long day ahaed of you. > > FPGA's and CPLD's seem to be going obsolite even before the datasheets > are printed or even updated on the web. The main problem with Tell me about it. About 10 years ago I was looking at the Xilinx XC6200 series -- this being one of the few FPGAs that were 100% documented (the configuration bit pattern was documented, you didn't have to use the Xilinx tools). They were discontinued before the UK distributor got any. That, I am afraid, is one reason I avoid programmable logic chips. By the time I've finished the design, the darn chip is unavailable. > programable logic is that almost all the software is windows based that > is low cost. Allmost all the high priced stuff is unix based and very > closed source in most aspects. And that's the other reason I avoid them. Well, and the fact that it takes me longer to design, debug, and program a device with those tools, than to hand-wire a 1-off board of TTL-ish logic chips. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 17:46:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:46:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: <20060530234356.25537.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 30, 6 04:43:56 pm Message-ID: > > >There comes a time when it's no longer viable to keep > >old machines > >running. > > Like my pre-1902 Pratt & Whitney precision bench > lathe? I advise you NOT to utter that sort of language Oooh!. That sounds very nics (and yes, it should be used) > Point taken, but computers don't fall into the same > category as rare ancient paraphernalia. Granted some In an earlier message, old computers were compared to classic cars/motorbikes. I can think of one very important difference here. A motor vehicle, could, alas, be involved in a collision, which would totally ruin it, both for use and as a museum exhibit. But it's rare for a component failure in a computer to make it useless as a static exhibit. An example. One day the BPC hybrid processor module in my 9825 is going to fail. It's a custom part that I can't easily recreate, and can't repair. When that happens, if I can't find a replacement, the machine is no longer going to be useful as a computer. But it certainly can be used as a static exhibit. And while it's still useable, I see no harm in using it. If I never used it, the processor module could still fail, just sitting on the shelf. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 17:50:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:50:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 30, 6 09:17:44 pm Message-ID: > > > If my CDC 160-A memory goes, there's no more core memories. > > Core memory can be repaired, but it isn't fun. So far, thankfully, all my core memeory system failures have been in the driver electronics, not the core planes. Yes, there are some critical timing and current adjustments in the drivers, but the problems I've had have been discrete transistors that have gone open-circuit and I've managed to find suitable replacements (sometimeswith a bit of 'select on test'ing. -tony From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed May 31 18:44:23 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:44:23 -0700 Subject: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have an Exidy Sorceror also. Paxton Astoria, Oregon On 5/31/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Nice! Very similar to the lot I picked up on Monday, but having poked a > > couple of messages on here about it I think there's only 3 of us that are > > interested :o\ > > FWIW, I ahve a Sorceror, the S100 box, the BASIC ROM cartridge and one > other cartridge (I asusme you've noticed these are actually modified > 8-track tape cases!), and the manuals (including the technical manuals). > Oh, and ESC newsletters 1-30 (I think I have the full run). > > But I've not done anything with it recently. Too many other machines to > work on. > > -tony > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed May 31 18:19:03 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:19:03 -0500 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: <447DF8BE.9070506@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200605311300190654.192BE05B@10.0.0.252> <200605311300190654.192BE05B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060531181809.0d5ee3b8@localhost> At 01:12 PM 5/31/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 5/31/2006 at 12:23 PM Al Kossow wrote: >> >>>Does anyone know of a supplier of 6-32 pancake head machine screws? >>> >>>I didn't even know this head style existed until someone told be about >>>it this morning. It is the flattest style of pan head type screws. >>Are they similar to these? >>http://tinyurl.com/n382a > >No. They are *flat*. Imagine a flat head *nail* with a >"slot" (cross) cut in the head... Some rare drive mounting kits used to come with them. I have a limited number (probably 20 or so) scrounged from such sources. [Government] (I've always thought of these die-hard libertarians as people who haven't yet figured out that the government is just another natural resource to be exploited) --zink at panix.com (David Zink) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rollerton at gmail.com Wed May 31 18:54:31 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:54:31 -0700 Subject: 6-32 3/16" phillips pancake head screws? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2789adda0605311654r686e8591xf42e47407a0ac686@mail.gmail.com> Truss Head? Try "Aircraft Spruce" http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/an526.php (Its Ok, we buy our airplane parts at NAPA and Orchard Supply...) On 5/31/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > Does anyone know of a supplier of 6-32 pancake head machine screws? > > I didn't even know this head style existed until someone told be about > it this morning. It is the flattest style of pan head type screws. > > Google turns up nothing. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 31 18:57:06 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:57:06 -0600 Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447E2D52.1090003@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > That, I am afraid, is one reason I avoid programmable logic chips. By the > time I've finished the design, the darn chip is unavailable. I bought my chips first ... and the programmer/demo board. :) > > And that's the other reason I avoid them. Well, and the fact that it > takes me longer to design, debug, and program a device with those tools, > than to hand-wire a 1-off board of TTL-ish logic chips. But alas I want to do a home brew 18 bit CPU and that don't fit well with 4 bit wide TTL logic, so I got about 200 14/16 pin TTL for a 18 bit ALU or two CPLDs. I still favor the TTL rather than CPLD's. > -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 31 19:00:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:00:48 -0700 Subject: Looking for 0.75" width endless printer ribbon In-Reply-To: <200605312324.k4VNOAu21320@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> References: <200605312324.k4VNOAu21320@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <200605311700480112.1A0807D6@10.0.0.252> On 5/31/2006 at 7:26 PM Bob Bradlee wrote: >I am working with the same cartridges as Henk is. I was looking at >building a reinking system, while he took the >replacement approach. I believe that nylon ribbons are welded ultrasonically. Long ago, one used to be able to order ribbons made-to-order. I have a re-inker made by PBM that I would be willing to part with. It uses a small synchronous motor to slowly drag the ribbon over an ink reservior equipped with very small holes through which the very viscous ink "leaks". A very very messy operation, but it does work. It's set up to work with aforementioned HP ribbon. IIRC, the ink is much more viscous than that used to re-ink rubber stamp pads. Cheers, Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 31 18:52:03 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:52:03 -0500 Subject: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff References: Message-ID: <005d01c6850e$d4d282c0$2f406b43@66067007> I want one :-( It's been on my list for awhile. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paxton Hoag" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:44 PM Subject: Re: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff >I have an Exidy Sorceror also. > Paxton > Astoria, Oregon > > On 5/31/06, Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> > Nice! Very similar to the lot I picked up on Monday, but having poked a >> > couple of messages on here about it I think there's only 3 of us that >> > are >> > interested :o\ >> >> FWIW, I ahve a Sorceror, the S100 box, the BASIC ROM cartridge and one >> other cartridge (I asusme you've noticed these are actually modified >> 8-track tape cases!), and the manuals (including the technical manuals). >> Oh, and ESC newsletters 1-30 (I think I have the full run). >> >> But I've not done anything with it recently. Too many other machines to >> work on. >> >> -tony >> > > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > From caveguy at wowway.com Wed May 31 19:15:17 2006 From: caveguy at wowway.com (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:15:17 -0400 Subject: Looking for 0.75" width endless printer ribbon In-Reply-To: <200605311700480112.1A0807D6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200606010012.k510CUGl002247@pop-8.dnv.wideopenwest.com> I have a reinker for epson ribbons somewhere around here. The problem with these ribbons it there is no drive roller in the ribon cartrage like the hp or epson ribbons. These ribbons get stuffed by a pusher that is part of the printer itself. I am sure everyone is now confused, this is a printing head built in to a card punch and prints the human readable text on the top of the card as it is being punched. The reason it is 3/4 wide is there can be up to three lines of text on the top of a 96 column card. later The other Bob On Wed, 31 May 2006 17:00:48 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 5/31/2006 at 7:26 PM Bob Bradlee wrote: >>I am working with the same cartridges as Henk is. I was looking at >>building a reinking system, while he took the >>replacement approach. >I believe that nylon ribbons are welded ultrasonically. Long ago, one >used to be able to order ribbons made-to-order. >I have a re-inker made by PBM that I would be willing to part with. It >uses a small synchronous motor to slowly drag the ribbon over an ink >reservior equipped with very small holes through which the very viscous ink >"leaks". A very very messy operation, but it does work. It's set up to >work with aforementioned HP ribbon. IIRC, the ink is much more viscous >than that used to re-ink rubber stamp pads. >Cheers, >Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 19:28:00 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 upgrades (was Re: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") In-Reply-To: <20060531184049.C5BC358276@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at May 31, 2006 02:40:49 PM Message-ID: <200606010028.k510S0GL006761@onyx.spiritone.com> > There is the IDE64 which allows you to hookup IDE drive, > CD/DVD-ROMS and Compact Flash cards. Plus the creator is working > on an ethernet adapter that would attach to it. Right now the IDE64 > board is in its fourth revision. Now that is interesting, is this a board you can buy somehow, or do you have to build it yourself? While trying to figure that one out, I ran across a *VERY* interesting website: http://www.64hdd.com/64hdd.html This is for a piece of software that turns an MS-DOS PC into a Commodore Disk drive, plus it can handle D64 files. I think this is the route I might end up going. > There is also the Retro Replay cartridge (a program > freezer) which has an addon called the RR-Net that gives you a > 10Mbps (yes I know the C64 can't move that much data!) ;) ethernet port. > This is supported by the Contiki OS which is set to move to V2.0. > > Cheers, > > Bryan I must confess I'm not totally clear on why I would want this. The Retro Replay cartridge looks cool, but what does the RR-Net addon get me? Can I use it with Quantum Link Reloaded? It looks like it can probably be used to make disk images of existing floppies, or write disk images back out to floppies, but I'm honestly not sure on that one. Zane From bpope at wordstock.com Wed May 31 20:06:09 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 upgrades (was Re: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") In-Reply-To: <200606010028.k510S0GL006761@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060601010609.5673858410@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > > There is the IDE64 which allows you to hookup IDE drive, > > CD/DVD-ROMS and Compact Flash cards. Plus the creator is working > > on an ethernet adapter that would attach to it. Right now the IDE64 > > board is in its fourth revision. > > Now that is interesting, is this a board you can buy somehow, or do you have > to build it yourself? > No, it comes pre-built. :) GOTO http://www.ide64.org for the main web page. http://wings.webhop.org (Mordernity Group) is a distributor of the IDE64, but they currently do not have any as they are waiting for V4 to be completed. I bought my IDE64 from Greg Nacu of MG at the 2004 LUCKI Expo. > While trying to figure that one out, I ran across a *VERY* interesting > website: http://www.64hdd.com/64hdd.html This is for a piece of software > that turns an MS-DOS PC into a Commodore Disk drive, plus it can handle D64 > files. I think this is the route I might end up going. > This requires the XE1541 cable which goes from the parallel port on your PC to the IEC connector on the C64. But you need an older PC as the newer PCs parallel port will not work properly. There is also the new XM1541 ( http://sta.c64.org/xm1541.html ) which is supposed to work with most parallel ports and PC boards. The is also a link there for The Star Commander which handles quite a few different file formats (and this cable!) :) > > There is also the Retro Replay cartridge (a program > > freezer) which has an addon called the RR-Net that gives you a > > 10Mbps (yes I know the C64 can't move that much data!) ;) ethernet port. > > This is supported by the Contiki OS which is set to move to V2.0. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Bryan > > I must confess I'm not totally clear on why I would want this. The Retro > Replay cartridge looks cool, but what does the RR-Net addon get me? Can I > use it with Quantum Link Reloaded? It looks like it can probably be used to > make disk images of existing floppies, or write disk images back out to > floppies, but I'm honestly not sure on that one. > I don't think so... I believe it only works with Contiki at this time. Cheers, Bryan From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 31 20:40:16 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:40:16 -0400 Subject: CP/M for Versafloppy system Message-ID: <002d01c6851c$55e9ec10$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: Ok, I think I have all the pieces together that I need to get a new 5.25" floppy system up and running on my IMSAI: a Versafloppy (1771-based) controller and a suitable 5.25" drive and related cabling. What I need now is a CP/M disk image for the Versafloppy. Does anyone have a bootable disk image suitable for this board and a Z80 processor? Thanks again! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From CPUMECH at aol.com Wed May 31 21:42:32 2006 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:42:32 EDT Subject: Manual for ADM-5? Message-ID: <47f.2054117.31afae18@aol.com> Call Dataterm in Woburn MA. They will probably have user and service manuals. Ask for Richie, he'll probably copy what u need. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed May 31 22:00:32 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:00:32 -0500 Subject: C64 upgrades (was Re: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") In-Reply-To: <20060601010609.5673858410@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060601010609.5673858410@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <447E5850.5010803@mdrconsult.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Zane H. Healy > > This requires the XE1541 cable which goes from the parallel port on > your PC to the IEC connector on the C64. But you need an older PC > as the newer PCs parallel port will not work properly. There is > also the new XM1541 ( http://sta.c64.org/xm1541.html ) which is > supposed to work with most parallel ports and PC boards. The is also > a link there for The Star Commander which handles quite a few different > file formats (and this cable!) :) I've fiddled with a homebrew XM1541 a bit. It does OK with the multi-mode parallel ports, but I found that it's most reliable on sub-200MHz PCs. I remember that one of the software packages worked really well and one just pissed me off a lot, but I don't remember which. :) Doc From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 31 22:22:00 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Identify a Morrow transformer Message-ID: I have a bunch of 4-inch tall transformers with ten terminals each. Looking at the front, I see terminals 1 and 2 on the left. On the right are 3, 4, and 5. On this side I see: MORROW'S DESIGN, inc MD2FD8 On the other side are terminals 6 through 10 arranged the same way as before. On this side I see: TSC 529 I presume this transformer takes 120 volts and steps it down to 16, 8, and 5 volts. But what are the other terminals for? One side for 120V input and the other for 240V? If you can identify it for me and want one, I'll send it to you for postage. A picture is at http://www.cs.csubak.edu/~dgriffi/transformer_morrow.jpg -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 31 22:29:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:29:55 -0700 Subject: C64 upgrades (was Re: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") In-Reply-To: <447E5850.5010803@mdrconsult.com> References: <20060601010609.5673858410@mail.wordstock.com> <447E5850.5010803@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200605312029550807.1AC77CA8@10.0.0.252> I've had pretty good luck with Star Commander on a 200 MHz Pendium. Instead of making up a cable, I just nibbled the a appropriate hole in the back of my 1571 and installed a female DB-25 connector with all of the applicable parts on it. I use a straight male-male DB25 to hook the 1571 to the parallel port. FWIW, I used some generic junkbox Schottky diodes that I had kicking around--they worked fine. Cheers, Chuck From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed May 31 23:13:23 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060601041323.55058.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'd love it if someone could scan all these newsletters and such it seems people are getting. I'd offer space to put them if anyone could. ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Tony Duell To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:58:15 PM Subject: Re: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff FWIW, I ahve a Sorceror, the S100 box, the BASIC ROM cartridge and one other cartridge (I asusme you've noticed these are actually modified 8-track tape cases!), and the manuals (including the technical manuals). Oh, and ESC newsletters 1-30 (I think I have the full run). But I've not done anything with it recently. Too many other machines to work on. -tony From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed May 31 23:16:34 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff In-Reply-To: <005d01c6850e$d4d282c0$2f406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <20060601041634.48026.qmail@web81012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This makes my third, well fourth really but I traded one long ago. I really like the Sorcerer and want to add more resources to the site for them. Though this is the first time I've been able to get more than the base unit and some doc and software. I can't wait for all my work travel to be over so I can set this up and check it all out. I just wish I could find some of the other systems on my wish list as easily as it seems I find these. :) ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Keys To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:52:03 PM Subject: Re: New Exidy Sorcerer stuff I want one :-( It's been on my list for awhile. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 31 23:40:14 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:40:14 +1200 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/1/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > The controller in the C= 1520 is a 6500-family masked-programmed > > controller and only implemented the C= IEC bus... > > Yes, that's one of the odd ones (I have the schematic for the 1520 > somewhere). Me, too; and I think they are on the funet archive (wherever it ended up recently). It's not surprising it's odd, what with C= owning the MOS Technologies fab; they tended to go for chip-level solutions as opposed to the things that Apple did in those days (standard parts, essentially). > I am wondering aobut making lantern pinions the right size. Yes, the > tooth profile on the meshing gear in the plotter would be wrong, but > would it matter? And a lantern pinion is a lot easier to make than the > original type. I am unfamiliar with a lantern pinion... what is that? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 31 23:45:00 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:45:00 +1200 Subject: C64 upgrades (was Re: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB "dongles") In-Reply-To: <200606010028.k510S0GL006761@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20060531184049.C5BC358276@mail.wordstock.com> <200606010028.k510S0GL006761@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > There is the IDE64 which allows you to hookup IDE drive, > > CD/DVD-ROMS and Compact Flash cards... Right now the IDE64 > > board is in its fourth revision. > > Now that is interesting, is this a board you can buy somehow, or do you have > to build it yourself? I built a rev2 board as a kit years ago, but I think the more recent versions are tending towards pre-assembled. I hung my 1.3" HP Kittyhawk off of mine - works great. I'm contemplating buying a rev4 board when I get home. http://www.ide64.org/ -ethan From bsheldrick at tridentcomputer.com Wed May 31 15:54:09 2006 From: bsheldrick at tridentcomputer.com (Bob Sheldrick) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:54:09 -0400 Subject: Memorex 651 Drive Message-ID: <447E0271.8070801@tridentcomputer.com> Do you have the actual Memorex 651 drive (not the floppy disks)? I'm looking to buy one. Thanks, Bob Sheldrick Trident Computer Corporation 277 Park Drive Troy MI 48083 USA Tel # 248-585-8100 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 31 18:36:18 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: IDE & SATA to USB dongles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060531233618.9584.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> well...it's a solution. It's been done for the Commie 64 amongst other things. I have to believe one would have a longevity at least that of an IDE hard drive (in particular a drive that's already years old!). If they fall off the market entirely in fire years, that's five years you have to scarf up all the deals you can find. I already see the smaller ones going for a tenner. Nuts and Volts magazine had an article within the last 6 months I believe wherein the construction of an mpeg player was detailed, which used flash storage. Didn't buy it, but afterwards thought it might prove a useful read if I ever wanted to design a reader of my own. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but there didn't seem to be anything terribly complex about it. Can't even remember what the circuit used for brain power, but it must have been something common and well documented. --- Tony Duell wrote: > > lookit, I just became a ho LOL LOL. Albeit cflash > > cards are themselves being phasored out (in favor > of > > That's a good enough reason for me _not_ to design > anything using them. > Flash memoery has a limited (albeit large) number of > write cycles, and I > am not going to design something round a product > that is (a) going to be > hard to find and (b) haev a limited working life > anyway. > > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com